I read every single one of the posts on the old Fora thread, and I am thrilled to have something to restart it here. I'm not sure if this is a favorite or a 'favorite'. This is a visiting student through a particular international program that leaned on us
very heavily to make things work for him, even though he was woefully unprepared for the type of research he wanted to do here. He somehow stumbled through a project like a kitten in ball pit, and then sent me and his co-supervisor this email. No, English is not his first language.
Quote
Hi, Ergative and [Co-supervisor],
I hope you are doing well and spending lovely times with your families. My programme has finished and I had to leave the Uni but I will keep in touch with you hopefully forever . . . [edited to remove specific details about project] I will keep you updated on what I find out because the story has not finished yet. Thank you for every single word and effort you have given me. Take care, live happily and I love you.
Best Regards,
Kitten
I'm confused. Is this the favorite email thread or the "favorite" email thread.
This sounds like a favorite to me. S/he loves y'all. How sweet!
I seem to recall that we used to have both 'favorite' and favorite emails there. Based on my experiences with this students, I can interpret this email either way.
Warning - the Fall semester will soon be here! This, quoted here in its entirety, just arrived.
"Hello! I will be a future student in your class this fall. I would like to know if we need books for your class?"
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on August 02, 2019, 12:09:52 PM
Warning - the Fall semester will soon be here! This, quoted here in its entirety, just arrived.
"Hello! I will be a future student in your class this fall. I would like to know if we need books for your class?"
This is where a cookie-cutter email may be worth the time. "Dear student: For information about the required materials for this class, see the bookstore web page at <insert URL>. Of course, you do not need to use the bookstore to actually purchase these materials, and may search for them elsewhere."
Of course, that last sentence may be problematic at some protectionist institutions that don't like competition at the bookstore.
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on August 02, 2019, 12:09:52 PM
Warning - the Fall semester will soon be here! This, quoted here in its entirety, just arrived.
"Hello! I will be a future student in your class this fall. I would like to know if we need books for your class?"
I've found that this is a place my freshpeeps and first-gen students honestly don't have the "how to college" know-how. So, props to hu for being proactive and reaching out, and I'd just send the information as suggested below.
Quote from: statsgeek on August 04, 2019, 06:47:19 AM
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on August 02, 2019, 12:09:52 PM
Warning - the Fall semester will soon be here! This, quoted here in its entirety, just arrived.
"Hello! I will be a future student in your class this fall. I would like to know if we need books for your class?"
I've found that this is a place my freshpeeps and first-gen students honestly don't have the "how to college" know-how. So, props to hu for being proactive and reaching out, and I'd just send the information as suggested below.
If one teaches a lot of fresh peeps, reaching out to the office/person who does new student programming may be useful to be on the same page about expectations. At Super Dinky, we managed to cut down a lot on the lack of "how to college" know-how questions by including some instructions in the acceptance packet with timelines including how registration will work that includes a cohort trip to the bookstore to acquire materials.
Quote from: Conjugate on August 03, 2019, 08:39:40 AM
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on August 02, 2019, 12:09:52 PM
Warning - the Fall semester will soon be here! This, quoted here in its entirety, just arrived.
"Hello! I will be a future student in your class this fall. I would like to know if we need books for your class?"
This is where a cookie-cutter email may be worth the time. "Dear student: For information about the required materials for this class, see the bookstore web page at <insert URL>. Of course, you do not need to use the bookstore to actually purchase these materials, and may search for them elsewhere."
Of course, that last sentence may be problematic at some protectionist institutions that don't like competition at the bookstore.
I'd throw in a "You didn't specify what course you are enrolled in, so I don't have enough information to answer your question. However, the bookstore..."
And if I'm feeling sporting, they get an "I'm looking forward to meeting you in September."
An email from a student, in it's entirety:
"The exam on Wednesday?"
Quote from: Dr. F. on August 04, 2019, 08:53:45 AM
An email from a student, in it's entirety:
"The exam on Wednesday?"
Well, is there an exam on Wednesday or is it some other day? Now that I'm intermittently using my tablet to post here, I understand more the little blips in missing a word or having something randomly capitalized because it's a huge pain to get it all right, even for a line or two.
Quote from: polly_mer on August 04, 2019, 07:13:35 AM
Quote from: statsgeek on August 04, 2019, 06:47:19 AM
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on August 02, 2019, 12:09:52 PM
Warning - the Fall semester will soon be here! This, quoted here in its entirety, just arrived.
"Hello! I will be a future student in your class this fall. I would like to know if we need books for your class?"
I've found that this is a place my freshpeeps and first-gen students honestly don't have the "how to college" know-how. So, props to hu for being proactive and reaching out, and I'd just send the information as suggested below.
If one teaches a lot of fresh peeps, reaching out to the office/person who does new student programming may be useful to be on the same page about expectations. At Super Dinky, we managed to cut down a lot on the lack of "how to college" know-how questions by including some instructions in the acceptance packet with timelines including how registration will work that includes a cohort trip to the bookstore to acquire materials.
Yes to these & most of the other comments - I'm just going to do it Monday...
Polly, I'm not sure exactly what information our new students get, but the programs are run by highly motivated professionals so suggestions are doubtless unnecessary as it's certainly a comprehensive orientation and completely wonderful! [/sarcasm] Hopefully they've now stopped telling students to email each of their professors to introduce themselves before classes start.
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on August 04, 2019, 10:26:50 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 04, 2019, 07:13:35 AM
Quote from: statsgeek on August 04, 2019, 06:47:19 AM
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on August 02, 2019, 12:09:52 PM
Warning - the Fall semester will soon be here! This, quoted here in its entirety, just arrived.
"Hello! I will be a future student in your class this fall. I would like to know if we need books for your class?"
I've found that this is a place my freshpeeps and first-gen students honestly don't have the "how to college" know-how. So, props to hu for being proactive and reaching out, and I'd just send the information as suggested below.
If one teaches a lot of fresh peeps, reaching out to the office/person who does new student programming may be useful to be on the same page about expectations. At Super Dinky, we managed to cut down a lot on the lack of "how to college" know-how questions by including some instructions in the acceptance packet with timelines including how registration will work that includes a cohort trip to the bookstore to acquire materials.
Yes to these & most of the other comments - I'm just going to do it Monday...
Polly, I'm not sure exactly what information our new students get, but the programs are run by highly motivated professionals so suggestions are doubtless unnecessary as it's certainly a comprehensive orientation and completely wonderful! [/sarcasm] Hopefully they've now stopped telling students to email each of their professors to introduce themselves before classes start.
Yup. First sign of a "high-maintenance" student.
Quote from: ciao_yall on August 04, 2019, 10:30:12 AM
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on August 04, 2019, 10:26:50 AM
Polly, I'm not sure exactly what information our new students get, but the programs are run by highly motivated professionals so suggestions are doubtless unnecessary as it's certainly a comprehensive orientation and completely wonderful! [/sarcasm] Hopefully they've now stopped telling students to email each of their professors to introduce themselves before classes start.
Yup. First sign of a "high-maintenance" student.
The dean of student life called those emails "starting a relationship with the community; your professor is your first link!" A new president came in and hit the roof upon hearing that was the official advice to our fresh peeps when we had advertised our strength as knowing people personally where the big classes are 25 people. Putting the burden on the students to make that first contact email was not reflecting our values nor was hoping students figured out the registration etc. process on their own instead of doing the equivalent of the old school, big gym where students go station to station to meet people, check that paperwork was in order, and incidentally chat with everyone, including circulating faculty, while in line.
I would not give a pass to a freshman, even a first generation one, who asked if a textbook was needed. Virtually all classes they would have had in hs, other than some non academic ones, would have required a text, so why would they assume college classes would somehow be textless? I would mot be rude in response but would certainly make it crystal clear they had to have all required texts for college success.
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 04, 2019, 09:50:42 PM
I would not give a pass to a freshman, even a first generation one, who asked if a textbook was needed. Virtually all classes they would have had in hs, other than some non academic ones, would have required a text . .
Not necessarily. Absolutive is a high school math teacher, and he's taught at several districts in different states (and countries) as he followed my career. It's not at all uncommon for students to learn things out of booklets and practice worksheets, rather than having actual textbooks.
"When can we meet this week? Let me know when you're available."
Um, it's summer and I'm not "on the clock" again for a few weeks.
It's not the student's fault. Some don't know that many faculty don't receive summer salary.
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 04, 2019, 09:50:42 PM
I would not give a pass to a freshman, even a first generation one, who asked if a textbook was needed. Virtually all classes they would have had in hs, other than some non academic ones, would have required a text, so why would they assume college classes would somehow be textless? I would mot be rude in response but would certainly make it crystal clear they had to have all required texts for college success.
You would think, but not necessarily. I have one who just finished high school and another still in high school. They don't have textbooks for their classes. Some classes have copies in the classroom to be used while in class, but neither of my teens have had textbooks to bring home in years. For most of their classes, they don't use textbooks at all, unless it is an online copy accessed through the school's LMS. It is mind boggling, yet it also helps me understand a little more the first year students.
Quote from: ciao_yall on August 04, 2019, 10:30:12 AM
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on August 04, 2019, 10:26:50 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 04, 2019, 07:13:35 AM
Quote from: statsgeek on August 04, 2019, 06:47:19 AM
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on August 02, 2019, 12:09:52 PM
Warning - the Fall semester will soon be here! This, quoted here in its entirety, just arrived.
"Hello! I will be a future student in your class this fall. I would like to know if we need books for your class?"
I've found that this is a place my freshpeeps and first-gen students honestly don't have the "how to college" know-how. So, props to hu for being proactive and reaching out, and I'd just send the information as suggested below.
If one teaches a lot of fresh peeps, reaching out to the office/person who does new student programming may be useful to be on the same page about expectations. At Super Dinky, we managed to cut down a lot on the lack of "how to college" know-how questions by including some instructions in the acceptance packet with timelines including how registration will work that includes a cohort trip to the bookstore to acquire materials.
Yes to these & most of the other comments - I'm just going to do it Monday...
Polly, I'm not sure exactly what information our new students get, but the programs are run by highly motivated professionals so suggestions are doubtless unnecessary as it's certainly a comprehensive orientation and completely wonderful! [/sarcasm] Hopefully they've now stopped telling students to email each of their professors to introduce themselves before classes start.
Yup. First sign of a "high-maintenance" student.
If the email is a one time question, then I typically think it's just a students who is planning ahead. Truly high maintenance students will demand copies of the syllabus and send panicked emails asking why the course website isn't available three months in advance.
Inside Higher Ed has an article on how to teach students to write emails. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/08/29/professors-offer-advice-teaching-students-how-email-them)
I read the templates and wonder about the great diversity of students who exist in US higher ed because those templates seem to be missing the realities of many students.
Quote from: the_geneticist on August 07, 2019, 11:35:36 AM
If the email is a one time question, then I typically think it's just a students who is planning ahead. Truly high maintenance students Educational Technologists will demand copies of the syllabus and send panicked emails asking why the course website isn't available three months in advance.
Fixed that for you.
(No prizes for guessing the hot issue on my campus this semester.)
dc
I've received three "Are you going to cancel classes on the Monday and Tuesday before Thanksgiving Break and Monday-Wednesday before Fall Break?" emails. In one case, a student replied that the Facebook Group for University Parents has come to the conclusion that professors should just cancel classes on those days because they're all going to buy tickets for their children to fly home anyway.
There are not many University Parent FB groups that are visible. How tempting to join one. The Northeastern U one has 30+ posts per day. I never knew they existed.
Quote from: RatGuy on August 29, 2019, 07:14:27 AM
I've received three "Are you going to cancel classes on the Monday and Tuesday before Thanksgiving Break and Monday-Wednesday before Fall Break?" emails. In one case, a student replied that the Facebook Group for University Parents has come to the conclusion that professors should just cancel classes on those days because they're all going to buy tickets for their children to fly home anyway.
OMG. And I thought we had problems with entitled
students.
Quote from: 0susanna on August 29, 2019, 08:42:53 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on August 29, 2019, 07:14:27 AM
I've received three "Are you going to cancel classes on the Monday and Tuesday before Thanksgiving Break and Monday-Wednesday before Fall Break?" emails. In one case, a student replied that the Facebook Group for University Parents has come to the conclusion that professors should just cancel classes on those days because they're all going to buy tickets for their children to fly home anyway.
OMG. And I thought we had problems with entitled students.
I guess that's where they learn it, and that's sad.
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on August 29, 2019, 08:54:37 AM
Quote from: 0susanna on August 29, 2019, 08:42:53 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on August 29, 2019, 07:14:27 AM
I've received three "Are you going to cancel classes on the Monday and Tuesday before Thanksgiving Break and Monday-Wednesday before Fall Break?" emails. In one case, a student replied that the Facebook Group for University Parents has come to the conclusion that professors should just cancel classes on those days because they're all going to buy tickets for their children to fly home anyway.
OMG. And I thought we had problems with entitled students.
I guess that's where they learn it, and that's sad.
Time to dust of my "life is full of choices, choices have consequences, choose wisely" speech.
After becoming a parent and spending more time with other parents, I now have a different understanding of motives underlying annoying student emails such as "Will we have class before Thanksgiving" or "is there anything I can do to improve my final grade?"
Now I believe that parents are behind this. It is the parents who are telling their kids to ask about Thanksgiving so the parents can buy the plane tickets, and it is the parents who are encouraging their kids to grub for grades. So I cut the kids some slack. Its not them.
Also, on the topic of books, our college staff encourage us to look for free online books for our students although I have never run into a free textbook that I prefer.
Quote from: Dismal on August 29, 2019, 01:37:42 PM
Also, on the topic of books, our college staff encourage us to look for free online books for our students although I have never run into a free textbook that I prefer.
And, if a student wants a hard copy, the cost of printing the "free" text typically exceeds the cost of the previous edition, used.
I recently received an email from a student I had never met that began "Hey Dr. [familiar form of first name that I don't use]." I am used to "hey prof," etc., but this was a new one for me.
Quote from: aside on August 30, 2019, 05:25:41 AM
I recently received an email from a student I had never met that began "Hey Dr. [familiar form of first name that I don't use]." I am used to "hey prof," etc., but this was a new one for me.
In the days of yore/ before caller ID, that false familiarity was how we would screen calls for my father. If you didn't know he was (the equivalent of) Will and not Bill, you didn't actually know him.
Maybe your student has a future in sales?
Quote from: craftyprof on August 30, 2019, 01:03:06 PM
Quote from: aside on August 30, 2019, 05:25:41 AM
I recently received an email from a student I had never met that began "Hey Dr. [familiar form of first name that I don't use]." I am used to "hey prof," etc., but this was a new one for me.
In the days of yore/ before caller ID, that false familiarity was how we would screen calls for my father. If you didn't know he was (the equivalent of) Will and not Bill, you didn't actually know him.
Maybe your student has a future in sales?
Similar practice in our house. Spouse and I have different last names; anybody who uses the wrong one clearly doesn't know us. Screens out a surprisingly high percentage of callers.
Quote from: dr_codex on August 31, 2019, 07:00:45 AM
Quote from: craftyprof on August 30, 2019, 01:03:06 PM
Quote from: aside on August 30, 2019, 05:25:41 AM
I recently received an email from a student I had never met that began "Hey Dr. [familiar form of first name that I don't use]." I am used to "hey prof," etc., but this was a new one for me.
In the days of yore/ before caller ID, that false familiarity was how we would screen calls for my father. If you didn't know he was (the equivalent of) Will and not Bill, you didn't actually know him.
Maybe your student has a future in sales?
Similar practice in our house. Spouse and I have different last names; anybody who uses the wrong one clearly doesn't know us. Screens out a surprisingly high percentage of callers.
oh haha, when I get a call for Mrs. Hislastname, I say (in a gentle and concerned tone): "Oh. ... Oh. ... I'm so
terribly sorry. Mrs. Hislastname is dead. Did you know her well?" (his mother passed a few years ago. She never lived with us.)
Quote from: hungry_ghost on August 31, 2019, 09:09:58 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on August 31, 2019, 07:00:45 AM
Quote from: craftyprof on August 30, 2019, 01:03:06 PM
Quote from: aside on August 30, 2019, 05:25:41 AM
I recently received an email from a student I had never met that began "Hey Dr. [familiar form of first name that I don't use]." I am used to "hey prof," etc., but this was a new one for me.
In the days of yore/ before caller ID, that false familiarity was how we would screen calls for my father. If you didn't know he was (the equivalent of) Will and not Bill, you didn't actually know him.
Maybe your student has a future in sales?
Similar practice in our house. Spouse and I have different last names; anybody who uses the wrong one clearly doesn't know us. Screens out a surprisingly high percentage of callers.
oh haha, when I get a call for Mrs. Hislastname, I say (in a gentle and concerned tone): "Oh. ... Oh. ... I'm so terribly sorry. Mrs. Hislastname is dead. Did you know her well?" (his mother passed a few years ago. She never lived with us.)
Having an unusual last name is a great way to screen out telemarketers. There's either a huge pause before they say it, or I can use the classic New Yorker cartoon caption "I'm sorry, no one whose name is pronounced like that lives here."
Quote from: hungry_ghost on August 31, 2019, 09:09:58 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on August 31, 2019, 07:00:45 AM
Quote from: craftyprof on August 30, 2019, 01:03:06 PM
Quote from: aside on August 30, 2019, 05:25:41 AM
I recently received an email from a student I had never met that began "Hey Dr. [familiar form of first name that I don't use]." I am used to "hey prof," etc., but this was a new one for me.
In the days of yore/ before caller ID, that false familiarity was how we would screen calls for my father. If you didn't know he was (the equivalent of) Will and not Bill, you didn't actually know him.
Maybe your student has a future in sales?
Similar practice in our house. Spouse and I have different last names; anybody who uses the wrong one clearly doesn't know us. Screens out a surprisingly high percentage of callers.
oh haha, when I get a call for Mrs. Hislastname, I say (in a gentle and concerned tone): "Oh. ... Oh. ... I'm so terribly sorry. Mrs. Hislastname is dead. Did you know her well?" (his mother passed a few years ago. She never lived with us.)
During college I had three roommates, one of which was male. The phone was in his name, which was short and pronounced exactly how it was spelled. Nevertheless, telemarketers usually got it wrong. They also assumed that any woman who answered the phone must be Mrs. Hislastname. It happened frequently enough that we (the female roommates) added a new fish to the aquarium and named it Mrs. Hislastname. After that we told anyone that asked for her or assumed that to be our identity that Mrs. Hislastname couldn't talk because she was swimming.
I also enjoyed taking calls that started with "Is this the lady of the house?" Yup. One of them.
One of my email screens is 'Dear Sir'. Nope, just a signal to delete the spam.
Quote from: science.expat on September 07, 2019, 10:12:31 PM
One of my email screens is 'Dear Sir'. Nope, just a signal to delete the spam.
Unless you're Peppermint Patty, right?
As the late great Gunnery Sgt F. Lee Ermey noted, 'the first word out of your mouth must always be sir!'
I think my favorite will always be the simple one I received a few years ago:
Dear Dr. Somebody,
I am so sorry I missed the first class yesterday. I promise it will never happen again.
Sincerely,
Ironic Student
I don't know why that one just stuck with me, but maybe the innocence and irony just hung around--and maybe also because the student turned out to have excellent attendance and actually do well in the class.
Quote from: science.expat on September 07, 2019, 10:12:31 PM
One of my email screens is 'Dear Sir'. Nope, just a signal to delete the spam.
Oddly, I just got an invitation to give an invited talk in a different country that started with 'Dear colleague.' I was about to consign that email to the void where I send all my special opportunities to be an editor of an internationally renowned journal that I've never heard of. But then I read it, and it seemed legit, and I looked up the person who sent it and I looked up his co-organizer of the event, and they seemed legit, and now I think I might be getting an all-expenses paid trip to Europe next year.
Talk about irony!
M.
Recently I've gotten a small string of emails from current undergraduates looking for research positions in my graduate program. These have all taken the basic form of
Dear Dr. Fringe (or occasionally "Respected Sir" from international students)
I would like to introduce myself. [two to four sentences about student and their experience/interests]. I was reading your website and was very interested ininsert a short phrase cut and pasted from my website without noticing that it is in a completely different font and size from the rest of the email. I have attached my CV, and would look forward to discussing how my background in camel genomics (or whatever their completely unrelated research experience entails) might impact your future research. Will you be accepting a graduate student this year?
Sincerely etc...
Someone needs to be a bit more specific when they tell students we are more likely to respond to personalized emails!
"Hi, I have a question about this class. Is this an online course or an in class course? I signed up for my classes late and this is the only class I have been a little confused about. I haven't been able to find a classroom or a time this class is supposed to meet, so I just assumed it was online. But I also haven't had anything due for this class either. I'm sorry it has taken me so long to reach out!"
We are in the FIFTH WEEK of the semester. It is a face-to-face class, as should be evident from the syllabus, which has a lot to say about the expectations for classroom participation, attendance, in-class activities, and such. We have, in fact, had an assignment due, I just haven't sent out reminders via the LMS because ... wait for it ... it is a face-to-face class. But even if it were an online class, shouldn't you have, you know, looked at the syllabus at some point during those five weeks?
Yes, and if you, like myself and many others, put the class number on the Syllabus Heading, they might have seen it there, too.
Or not...
M.
Sounds like present_mirth's student is having a real-life version of that recurring nightmare where one suddenly realizes it's far into the semester and one hasn't been attending class and is falling hopelessly behind. I've kept having that one years after my last school experience!
Someone sent me a video from their phone showing them trying to start their (broken down) car.
This is my first videotaped excused absence request. Hot.
Quote from: Aster on September 17, 2019, 10:15:00 AM
Someone sent me a video from their phone showing them trying to start their (broken down) car.
This is my first videotaped excused absence request. Hot.
Is there a date stamp?
The worst was the "sorry I missed class" email I received several years ago. The student accidentally severed his thumb and he SENT PICTURES. TMI indeed. (Fortunately, the surgeon was able to re-attach the digit.)
Now I tell me students that they do not have send me evidence, a simple note about the absence will do.
I received this one today...
Dear Dr. Mode,
I have a question, I know that I turned in lab [assignment] late. From looking at the syllabus, it just states that late work just recieves a 25% deduction. From the rubric it said I got a 8/10 on the [assignment] and that turned into a 5.5. I checked the math and 25% of 8 is 2. Why did I lose 2.5 points from 8 instead of 2? On the syllabus it states that only a mininum of 25% is reduced from late work.
Thank you,
[Stu Dent]
At least he was very polite. I wrote back to explain that 25% of 10 was 2.5 points and that any deduction is taken from the possible grade, not the earned grade. He replied thanking me for the explanation. Was it just wishful thinking on Stu's part? Or is there something being done somewhere in other classes or in high schools that made him think that late work penalties are taken from the earned grade, not the possible grade? I've been doing this sort of penalty for certain late work for years now and never had this sort of question before.
He's just distracted or not thinking very hard.
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 08, 2019, 01:37:35 PM
On the syllabus it states that only a mininum of 25% is reduced from late work.
Or is there something being done somewhere in other classes or in high schools that made him think that late work penalties are taken from the earned grade, not the possible grade?
I would interpret your wording above in the same way that the student did. But if you changed your wording to "a minimum of 25% of the total points", then I think that would remove the ambiguity.
Quote from: nucleo on October 08, 2019, 03:16:40 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 08, 2019, 01:37:35 PM
On the syllabus it states that only a mininum of 25% is reduced from late work.
Or is there something being done somewhere in other classes or in high schools that made him think that late work penalties are taken from the earned grade, not the possible grade?
I would interpret your wording above in the same way that the student did. But if you changed your wording to "a minimum of 25% of the total points", then I think that would remove the ambiguity.
Those three bits of wording together I find confusing.(Why "only" if it's a "minimum"?? And why "reduced
from" rather than "reduced
by" or "
deducted from"?)
Quote from: nucleo on October 08, 2019, 03:16:40 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 08, 2019, 01:37:35 PM
On the syllabus it states that only a mininum of 25% is reduced from late work.
Or is there something being done somewhere in other classes or in high schools that made him think that late work penalties are taken from the earned grade, not the possible grade?
I would interpret your wording above in the same way that the student did. But if you changed your wording to "a minimum of 25% of the total points", then I think that would remove the ambiguity.
What the student wrote is not actually what the syllabus states. It says "Late work will accrue a penalty of 25% of the assignment's point value," which is why I wondered what he was thinking.
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 09, 2019, 06:45:52 AM
What the student wrote is not actually what the syllabus states. It says "Late work will accrue a penalty of 25% of the assignment's point value," which is why I wondered what he was thinking.
The assigned point value (8) or the potential point value (10)? I can understand the student's confusion. I'm sure there are many faculty who assign late penalties to the earned grade rather than the possible grade.
Quote from: wwwdotcom on October 09, 2019, 08:36:31 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 09, 2019, 06:45:52 AM
What the student wrote is not actually what the syllabus states. It says "Late work will accrue a penalty of 25% of the assignment's point value," which is why I wondered what he was thinking.
The assigned point value (8) or the potential point value (10)? I can understand the student's confusion. I'm sure there are many faculty who assign late penalties to the earned grade rather than the possible grade.
Now that makes no sense to me. I've never heard of anyone taking a percentage off of what was earned instead of what the assignment was worth, which would actually be quite inequitable to the students. Those who did the work to a higher standard, even though it was late, would receive a greater penalty than those who did lower quality work and also turned it in late. An assignment's point value should be self-explanatory. If an assignment is worth 10 points, it is worth 10 points. And any deduction is from the 10 points. But then I'm in engineering, we tend to see things differently.
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 09, 2019, 09:08:31 AM
Quote from: wwwdotcom on October 09, 2019, 08:36:31 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 09, 2019, 06:45:52 AM
What the student wrote is not actually what the syllabus states. It says "Late work will accrue a penalty of 25% of the assignment's point value," which is why I wondered what he was thinking.
The assigned point value (8) or the potential point value (10)? I can understand the student's confusion. I'm sure there are many faculty who assign late penalties to the earned grade rather than the possible grade.
Now that makes no sense to me. I've never heard of anyone taking a percentage off of what was earned instead of what the assignment was worth, which would actually be quite inequitable to the students. Those who did the work to a higher standard, even though it was late, would receive a greater penalty than those who did lower quality work and also turned it in late. An assignment's point value should be self-explanatory. If an assignment is worth 10 points, it is worth 10 points. And any deduction is from the 10 points. But then I'm in engineering, we tend to see things differently.
I'm in physics, but I still see the same ambiguity; 25%
of what? "Fairness" is in the eye of the beholder. (And if a person earned
less than 25% on the assignment, and handed it in late, would they get a
negative grade? So it would be better to not hand it in and get zero?)
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 09, 2019, 09:08:31 AM
Quote from: wwwdotcom on October 09, 2019, 08:36:31 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 09, 2019, 06:45:52 AM
What the student wrote is not actually what the syllabus states. It says "Late work will accrue a penalty of 25% of the assignment's point value," which is why I wondered what he was thinking.
The assigned point value (8) or the potential point value (10)? I can understand the student's confusion. I'm sure there are many faculty who assign late penalties to the earned grade rather than the possible grade.
Now that makes no sense to me. I've never heard of anyone taking a percentage off of what was earned instead of what the assignment was worth, which would actually be quite inequitable to the students. Those who did the work to a higher standard, even though it was late, would receive a greater penalty than those who did lower quality work and also turned it in late. An assignment's point value should be self-explanatory. If an assignment is worth 10 points, it is worth 10 points. And any deduction is from the 10 points. But then I'm in engineering, we tend to see things differently.
I'm not disagreeing with your perspective, just pointing out that the student's confusion is understandable. The language you shared "Late work will accrue a penalty of 25% of the assignment's point value" is still ambiguous. Are you referring to the point value earned or the point value possible?
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 09, 2019, 09:17:52 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 09, 2019, 09:08:31 AM
Quote from: wwwdotcom on October 09, 2019, 08:36:31 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 09, 2019, 06:45:52 AM
What the student wrote is not actually what the syllabus states. It says "Late work will accrue a penalty of 25% of the assignment's point value," which is why I wondered what he was thinking.
The assigned point value (8) or the potential point value (10)? I can understand the student's confusion. I'm sure there are many faculty who assign late penalties to the earned grade rather than the possible grade.
Now that makes no sense to me. I've never heard of anyone taking a percentage off of what was earned instead of what the assignment was worth, which would actually be quite inequitable to the students. Those who did the work to a higher standard, even though it was late, would receive a greater penalty than those who did lower quality work and also turned it in late. An assignment's point value should be self-explanatory. If an assignment is worth 10 points, it is worth 10 points. And any deduction is from the 10 points. But then I'm in engineering, we tend to see things differently.
I'm in physics, but I still see the same ambiguity; 25% of what? "Fairness" is in the eye of the beholder. (And if a person earned less than 25% on the assignment, and handed it in late, would they get a negative grade? So it would be better to not hand it in and get zero?)
Guess I'll have to consider the wording and will discuss it with colleagues, just never had that question asked before. Are there negative grades? No, but there are 0 grades for those who earned less than 25% on what they turned in. It's the same policy in all the courses across our department for late work, with the same statement in the syllabi. Some faculty choose not to accept late work at all, which is also allowed by policy. Didn't mean to cause such a kerfluffle over something that makes sense to me, but apparently not to everyone, including one of my students.
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 09, 2019, 09:34:48 AM
Didn't mean to cause such a kerfluffle over something that makes sense to me, but apparently not to everyone, including one of my students.
Just this term I had a lab where the first instruction was:
Connect power and ground.We've connected numerous devices at this point, but a couple of groups had trouble because they connected power TO ground. (eye roll..)
So I changed it to:
Connect power.
Connect ground.
As Murphy noted, if there is an incorrect way to do things, sooner or later, someone will. This obviously implies to interpreting instructions as well.....
Got this today:
QuoteHi Dr. Rat. I'm currently in your freshmen-level introduction to basketweaving class. I see that next semester you are teaching History of American Baskets, 1776-1856. Will there be a lot of work in that course?
I want to respond with "Compared to an intro class? Yes. Compared to any other history class? Also yes."
"
Quote from: RatGuy on October 09, 2019, 11:11:05 AM
Got this today:
QuoteHi Dr. Rat. I'm currently in your freshmen-level introduction to basketweaving class. I see that next semester you are teaching History of American Baskets, 1776-1856. Will there be a lot of work in that course?
I want to respond with "Compared to an intro class? Yes. Compared to any other history class? Also yes."
Looking to boost enrollment? "Nah, not much at all."
Looking to limit enrollment? "Yes, lots and lots of work. More work than most classes at this university and the grading standards are rigorous. However, you will learn a great deal."
Word will spread fast in both cases.
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 09, 2019, 10:32:56 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 09, 2019, 09:34:48 AM
Didn't mean to cause such a kerfluffle over something that makes sense to me, but apparently not to everyone, including one of my students.
Just this term I had a lab where the first instruction was:
Connect power and ground.
We've connected numerous devices at this point, but a couple of groups had trouble because they connected power TO ground. (eye roll..)
So I changed it to:
Connect power.
Connect ground.
As Murphy noted, if there is an incorrect way to do things, sooner or later, someone will. This obviously implies to interpreting instructions as well.....
Murphy is indeed alive and well in the technical fields!
Yesterday I got a polite email from a student who wanted to meet with me to ask some questions before next Tuesday's exam. The student specifically asked if I had any time available on Thursday, Friday, or Monday. I responded letting the student know I had 3-hour time block open on Friday and asking if the student could come meet with me then. I received the following response:
"Dear Professor,
Unfortunately, I cannot meet at that time on Friday because I am in class. My schedule on Friday is completely full, so I will not be able to meet on Friday.
--Student."
The entire exchange took only ten to fifteen minutes, so it is extremely unlikely that the student had open timeslots on Friday at the time of the first email that filled up before I responded.
"Dr. 0susanna'
...I am part of a group recognized as the [Program] Fellows. This group was recently invited to attend a video conference with [University President] on Thursday, October 31, at 9:30 a.m. Therefore, I will not be in class tomorrow. If we are released from the conference at a reasonable time before 10:50, I will join the class late. I am so sorry if this inconveniences you in any way!"
Dear Stu Dent in my class and [Program] Fellow, why would your absence inconvenience me? It may inconvenience your fellow students, and it is likely to inconvenience you, as you will miss whatever happens in class, but I will carry on as usual.
Aw, but it was so polite and grammatical! And I guess the disruption of a student arriving late could inconvenience the instructor.
Quote from: 0susanna on October 30, 2019, 02:00:50 PM
"Dr. 0susanna'
...I am part of a group recognized as the [Program] Fellows. This group was recently invited to attend a video conference with [University President] on Thursday, October 31, at 9:30 a.m. Therefore, I will not be in class tomorrow. If we are released from the conference at a reasonable time before 10:50, I will join the class late. I am so sorry if this inconveniences you in any way!"
Dear Stu Dent in my class and [Program] Fellow, why would your absence inconvenience me? It may inconvenience your fellow students, and it is likely to inconvenience you, as you will miss whatever happens in class, but I will carry on as usual.
I get this line frequently, and I am never sure how to respond. I honestly want students to know, the only person "inconvenienced" by an absence is the student herself, but I don't know how to say this in a way that does not sound a bit rude.
I think these students are sincerely trying to be polite and do not know what else to say.
What would we like our students to say instead? Maybe, "Thank you for understanding. I am aware that it is my responsibility to find out what I have missed and make up any work." ?
I'm asking since I share a boilerplate "appropriate ways to email your professors" at the start of the semester, and I might like to address this.
Thoughts?
Quote from: hungry_ghost on November 01, 2019, 09:23:57 AM
I get this line frequently, and I am never sure how to respond. I honestly want students to know, the only person "inconvenienced" by an absence is the student herself, but I don't know how to say this in a way that does not sound a bit rude.
I think these students are sincerely trying to be polite and do not know what else to say.
What would we like our students to say instead? Maybe, "Thank you for understanding. I am aware that it is my responsibility to find out what I have missed and make up any work." ?
I'm asking since I share a boilerplate "appropriate ways to email your professors" at the start of the semester, and I might like to address this.
Thoughts?
I have had several students say something similar in their emails, e.g., "I will get the information I miss from Joe" or some other classmate. During the first class, I talk about what to do when you need to miss class-- I expect to be notified as a courtesy and they are expected to get the information and check the notes (a PDF of select slides) on Canvas. In other words, don't ask ME what you missed. So far, they've been good about that. I teach graduate students, though, and my classes are relatively small (between 11 and 20 students). So an absence is pretty noticeable. They typically notify me if they will be late as well, which is appreciated but not necessary.
"I know that we have a major project due today, but I'm sorry I'll have to miss it. Today is my dog's birthday and my family is throwing him a party and he'll be sad and disappointed if I miss it. Sorry for any inconvenience."
I think the dog should come to my class so I can have cake too.
I have had three notices this week from three different students each notifying me that they'll be out of town for all of the next week because their family is going out on a cruise.
I should do a study on the impact of the cruise ship industry on college retention.
Quote from: RatGuy on November 20, 2019, 09:43:22 AM
"I know that we have a major project due today, but I'm sorry I'll have to miss it. Today is my dog's birthday and my family is throwing him a party and he'll be sad and disappointed if I miss it. Sorry for any inconvenience."
I think the dog should come to my class so I can have cake too.
Classic! This is why I like policies that about missing work that avoid having to evaluate the legitimacy of the excuse.
Ok, but the cruises and the dog bday parties are ludicrously illegitimate excuses and should be treated as such, consequenced as such, whereas there are legit excuses a prof should recognize and make allowances for.
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 20, 2019, 06:41:07 PM
Ok, but the cruises and the dog bday parties are ludicrously illegitimate excuses and should be treated as such, consequenced as such, whereas there are legit excuses a prof should recognize and make allowances for.
But what if the cruise is to celebrate the parents' 25th anniversary? What if, rather than the dog's birthday, it's Grandma's 80th birthday? As long as there is apparent room for negotiation, some students will try to find it. (And as always, who wants to have to
verify any of those?)
Cruises are non-legit period. Mom and dad, even 80yo grandmama, shoukd realize and deal with that.
I send out announcements saying NOTE the special deadline for this piece of work.
2 students write to ask to check that this is really the special deadline.
I applaud their desire to confirm details. But I do want to write back saying that this one has been anticipated and answered already.
Quote from: downer on November 25, 2019, 10:56:18 AM
I send out announcements saying NOTE the special deadline for this piece of work.
2 students write to ask to check that this is really the special deadline.
I applaud their desire to confirm details. But I do want to write back saying that this one has been anticipated and answered already.
I get a few of those every time we have no labs due to a holiday. The emails are "I know the syllabus/lab manual/announcement on the LMS says we don't have lab this week, but I wanted to check that we don't have lab this week."
At least you know they read the announcement.
This is a favorite response to a students email.
Stu: "One of my sources has two authors with the same last name. Do I need to put a distinction in the in text citation by like adding a first initial, or should I just repeat the name twice?"
Me (teaching APA): "Just repeat the last name twice. You don't need to add any distinction between the two. Just make sure you keep them in the same order."
Two variations on "I know our final is today, I was just wanting to double check on where it is located."
Fantasy response: If it was in any room other than our normal classroom it would have been posted in huge font on the CMS and announced so loudly and often in class that only a comatose student would have failed to notice. Also, the fact that you weren't able to deduce, from the lack of any other instructions, that it is in our normal room is quite useful - it greatly helps me understand your current grade in the course.
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on December 06, 2019, 04:00:57 AM
Two variations on "I know our final is today, I was just wanting to double check on where it is located."
Fantasy response: If it was in any room other than our normal classroom it would have been posted in huge font on the CMS and announced so loudly and often in class that only a comatose student would have failed to notice. Also, the fact that you weren't able to deduce, from the lack of any other instructions, that it is in our normal room is quite useful - it greatly helps me understand your current grade in the course.
My students keep writing to ask when the final is. Perhaps I'm too stubborn on this and should just always post it on Canvas, but I don't make the final schedule, you can find it on the registrar's site, and I even bring up the site and show them the time of the final in class. Do you really have to email me about this?
I don't think putting the time of the final conspicuously on the syllabus and on the LMS would be babying the students.
Quote from: Hegemony on December 06, 2019, 07:25:53 AM
I don't think putting the time of the final conspicuously on the syllabus and on the LMS would be babying the students.
No, I suppose it wouldn't. I'm probably being stubborn about the principle of the thing, which is stupid, I know. But, before the first day of class I don't have to write all my students and tell them where and when we are meeting. This seems basically the same. I know, though, I grew up in a world without CMS and students who have grown up in that world expect to find all the course information there.
Quote from: Hegemony on December 06, 2019, 07:25:53 AM
I don't think putting the time of the final conspicuously on the syllabus and on the LMS would be babying the students.
Here the exam schedule doesn't come out until a few weeks into term, so it would be impossible to put it on the syllabus before the term begins.
It's in my syllabus, they ask anyway.
And one class has an online final. It is available for 10d. I have one student who keeps asking "Yes, but WHEN is it".
December Eleventy-third, at 3600 h, Antarctic Non-Standard Time. In Gaelic.
Quote from: RatGuy on November 20, 2019, 09:43:22 AM
"I know that we have a major project due today, but I'm sorry I'll have to miss it. Today is my dog's birthday and my family is throwing him a party and he'll be sad and disappointed if I miss it. Sorry for any inconvenience."
I think the dog should come to my class so I can have cake too.
I wonder if this is an autocorrect error and it was actually the student's dad's birthday? Did you ever get more info on it?
The Dog Morphs Into the Computer & Internet
Revised final draft of research paper due last Friday. Email arrives Friday:
"In my house we are having technical difficulties and I don't have enough data on my phone to use as a hot spot. If it's okay with you may I turn it in some time Sunday?"
Permission granted. Sunday arrives, along with this email in the wee hours on Monday:
"Still having technical difficulties to the point that the internet is so slow that the paper has been downloading since 10:00 pm and it is now almost 2:30 am. If it doesn't download fully in the next hour I'm coming to school at 1:00 pm and sending it then."
Monday afternoon:
"Never mind ... I had written out the revision and my computer just deleted my revision and kept the original and I'm just too overwhelmed to redo it because of all the finals I have this week."
The computer ate my homework. Who ate YOUR homework?
Quote from: Biologist_ on December 06, 2019, 01:42:09 PM
Quote from: RatGuy on November 20, 2019, 09:43:22 AM
"I know that we have a major project due today, but I'm sorry I'll have to miss it. Today is my dog's birthday and my family is throwing him a party and he'll be sad and disappointed if I miss it. Sorry for any inconvenience."
I think the dog should come to my class so I can have cake too.
I wonder if this is an autocorrect error and it was actually the student's dad's birthday? Did you ever get more info on it?
No, not that it mattered. When I informed the student that the departmental policy doesn't differentiate between excused and unexcused absences, he then said, "well, I have a group project due in [whatever class] that day." I told him that it didn't matter, an absence is an absence. Then the day of the project he emails me that he has a concussion. Bottom line: student signed up to present on the last day for presentations, and then didn't want to come that day.
The student who sends in work 2 months late starts getting concerned when I don't reply to their email within 4 hours.
Quote from: downer on December 17, 2019, 03:10:38 PM
The student who sends in work 2 months late starts getting concerned when I don't reply to their email within 4 hours.
YES!!! I had this student, too!
I seem to be getting more emails from students who say that, while their final grade is X, they are very close to getting X+, and can I give them extra credit or just round up. They often add some reason why it would be good for them if I was so charitable or a tale of woe about why they deserve it.
This, despite statements in the syllabus about no extra credit, no rounding up of final grades.
I would like to change my policy:
Final Grades: You can submit a request to raise your grade because it would help you. Such a request will cost you 0.5% of your grade. If your request is sufficiently moving, I will bump up your final grade.
Quote from: downer on December 18, 2019, 05:11:17 AM
Final Grades: You can submit a request to raise your grade because it would help you. Such a request will cost you 0.5% of your grade. If your request is sufficiently moving, I will bump up your final grade.
I wish!
AR.
Quote from: downer on December 18, 2019, 05:11:17 AM
Final Grades: You can submit a request to raise your grade because it would help you. Such a request will cost you 0.5% of your grade. If your request is sufficiently moving, I will bump up your final grade.
Maybe add the detail that the grade bump will be no more than 0.5% of the grade.
I would then love to see how many students make requests. The results would make for a great educational research article.
Quote from: AvidReader on December 18, 2019, 05:17:33 AM
Quote from: downer on December 18, 2019, 05:11:17 AM
Final Grades: You can submit a request to raise your grade because it would help you. Such a request will cost you 0.5% of your grade. If your request is sufficiently moving, I will bump up your final grade.
I wish!
AR.
The ones I get of late are students who say they need an A in this course, presumably because their other grades are so bad that they will end up on academic probation. Obviously the point of my courses is to give you that grade bump to make up for your failures elsewhere
Quote from: Aster on December 18, 2019, 05:25:09 AM
Quote from: downer on December 18, 2019, 05:11:17 AM
Final Grades: You can submit a request to raise your grade because it would help you. Such a request will cost you 0.5% of your grade. If your request is sufficiently moving, I will bump up your final grade.
Maybe add the detail that the grade bump will be no more than 0.5% of the grade.
I would then love to see how many students make requests. The results would make for a great educational research article.
My prediction to Downer's idea: A
flood of requests. It indicates that you are open to persuasion, and, as long as a student knows that a 0.5% penalty won't drop them down into the next grade category, what do they have to lose?
Aster's amendment would probably reduce the flow, since it would only be relevant for the tranche of students near the next grade category. But I'm guessing that it would still produce more responses than anybody wants.
I do know of Comp classes that have, as a final assignment, "Argue for your grade". The point, of course, is to have students demonstrate all of their persuasive writing skills in a cause that has stakes. I've always been astonished at the time and care students -- otherwise demonstrating very little time and care in my courses -- will pour into grade appeals.
Happy break, all.
Quote from: dr_codex on December 18, 2019, 05:44:08 AM
Quote from: Aster on December 18, 2019, 05:25:09 AM
Quote from: downer on December 18, 2019, 05:11:17 AM
Final Grades: You can submit a request to raise your grade because it would help you. Such a request will cost you 0.5% of your grade. If your request is sufficiently moving, I will bump up your final grade.
Maybe add the detail that the grade bump will be no more than 0.5% of the grade.
I would then love to see how many students make requests. The results would make for a great educational research article.
My prediction to Downer's idea: A flood of requests. It indicates that you are open to persuasion, and, as long as a student knows that a 0.5% penalty won't drop them down into the next grade category, what do they have to lose?
Aster's amendment would probably reduce the flow, since it would only be relevant for the tranche of students near the next grade category. But I'm guessing that it would still produce more responses than anybody wants.
I think Aster was making a joke - if it costs then 0.5% and the most their grade can be bumped is 0.5%, they come out the same.
My colleague in Australia says at their uni the students need to pay a fee (like $20 or something) to have an exam regraded if they have a complaint about their mark. And their grade is as likely to go down as it is to go up on regrade so this isn't a popular option.
I just posted this on the 'Bang your head" thread, but perhaps it belongs here.
"is there anyway I could possibly get it up to an 87 to boost my grade to a B+ or is there anything that I could do for you before 4 o'clock today."
Biology major (probable pre-med) enrolled in what the student seems to have expected was a relatively easy course because my course is just a (non-mathematical) social science course. The student first questioned the calculation of an exam score earlier in the semester having earned only 90%. I was afraid that this student would cause me more heartburn later on, and lo and behold, the student earned a mediocre 78% on the comprehensive final exam, which resulted in a final grade of 'B'.
On Christmas Eve (when grades were first posted on the CMS), the student fired off an email to me because the student finds the grade "difficult to believe" and wants me to double-check my grading. I can look forward to a meeting next semester when the grade grubber will contest every point, but it will be to no avail given the need for a B+ on the final exam to raise the final grade to the A-range. I also looked up the student's other course grades in biology and chemistry this semester and they were all B's. So my class is not going to be the one responsible for the student's difficulty getting accepted to med school.
I got the usual spread of opinions, including both "I liked everything in this course except [Certain Text], which was dry as dust and a huge waste of time" and "The real high point of the class was [Certain Text], the rest wasn't so interesting." I also got both "Class was too hard" and "Class was too easy." Well, aren't course evaluations useful?
Quote from: Hegemony on December 31, 2019, 06:38:05 AM
I got the usual spread of opinions, including both "I liked everything in this course except [Certain Text], which was dry as dust and a huge waste of time" and "The real high point of the class was [Certain Text], the rest wasn't so interesting." I also got both "Class was too hard" and "Class was too easy." Well, aren't course evaluations useful?
If you got about an equal number of both responses, then it indicates that you are hitting about the correct level for the median of the class, which is
very useful. The
distribution of answers to a questions is useful to know, and in fact sometimes it's the questions with
unanimous responses that are giving you less useful information.
Summarised
Stu - just before Christmas: have been trying to get an answer on <>, can you help me? Name and student number included.
SE - same day: I'll try when the uni re-opens on 6 January. Can you provide me with some more information on the problem?
Stu - next day: name and student number, nothing else
Stu - 3 January: 'a gentle reminder' that you were going to help me with <>
SE - same day: the uni is closed until 6 January
I don't know what she expects me to do in the meantime....
SE:
You know that Uni is closed = I can't do anything.
Does the student?
Quote from: bopper on January 03, 2020, 07:45:50 AM
SE:
You know that Uni is closed = I can't do anything.
Does the student?
I would hope so, but maybe not...
Got this one:
Quotesrry, i was late in the [basketweaving class] and the TA said to email for changing another section class, is there any seats available for me? im sooo sorry i was trying to get a [basket thing needed for lecture] on monday in the section but there is a long line at the bookstore.
[very late student]
They were over an hour late for a lab that starts at 1:00pm. This was after two emails and an in class announcement that all labs are full and have a waitlist, students need to go to their registered lab on time or they will be dropped from the class.
Follow-up email:
Quoteis there any lab I can go to if I'm not on the waitlist. is there any chance I can have any section? what should i do? i really need that class.
Quote
Missing class
Good evening professor, unfortunately i wasn't able to attend class this week, was there anything important apart from the syllabus that i miss that i wouldn't be able to find online? Thanks and hope to hear from you soon, i am looking forward on this semester with you.
My reply:
QuoteMy lecture
I have replaced the traditional first-day "go over the syllabus" name with something with a lot more punch.
Now it's "full class orientation".
The name-change seems to help with first-day attendance.
Quote from: Aster on January 10, 2020, 11:27:34 AM
I have replaced the traditional first-day "go over the syllabus" name with something with a lot more punch.
Now it's "full class orientation".
The name-change seems to help with first-day attendance.
I suppose students have learned that anything called "orientation" is serious business.
10% of the final grade is for weaving a small basket in a weekly basket-weaving session, it was easy to get some credit for a reasonable try. The students were informed of this in the first lecture, in the first basket-weaving session and near the end of the semester when a third of them had still not woven their basket which made most of them rapidly weave an ugly basket. One student did not (presumably because they were not there to hear the information and the reminders), got 0 credit for the 10% and then wrote me this email:
"I am surprised by the 0 grade in basket-weaving, I know that I never participated in the basket-weaving sessions, but I never thought that I would have 0, and this has really demoralised me, I sincerely ask you, isn't there a possibility that you change the grade ? Because with my grades, my chances of passing this course are low and this grade could lead to problems with my residence permit."
How can they think that it is a good idea telling me that they were surprised to get 0 credit for literally doing 0?
Quote from: Wulfenia on January 10, 2020, 08:20:17 PM
10% of the final grade is for weaving a small basket in a weekly basket-weaving session, it was easy to get some credit for a reasonable try. The students were informed of this in the first lecture, in the first basket-weaving session and near the end of the semester when a third of them had still not woven their basket which made most of them rapidly weave an ugly basket. One student did not (presumably because they were not there to hear the information and the reminders), got 0 credit for the 10% and then wrote me this email:
"I am surprised by the 0 grade in basket-weaving, I know that I never participated in the basket-weaving sessions, but I never thought that I would have 0, and this has really demoralised me, I sincerely ask you, isn't there a possibility that you change the grade ? Because with my grades, my chances of passing this course are low and this grade could lead to problems with my residence permit."
How can they think that it is a good idea telling me that they were surprised to get 0 credit for literally doing 0?
Still one of the best lines from
The Simpsons, from Ned's hipster parents: "We've tried nothing and we're out of ideas."
Much quoted in my house.
And after Department Meetings.
My University's version of this.
"We give a new name to the the same stuff that we always do and nothing different happens."
Quote from: dr_codex on January 11, 2020, 06:34:09 AM
Still one of the best lines from The Simpsons, from Ned's hipster parents: "We've tried nothing and we're out of ideas."
Much quoted in my house.
And after Department Meetings.
I am so going to use this! Probably as an interrogative - 'So you mean you've tried nothing and you're out of ideas?'
:-)
Professor Mahagonny,
I apologize for the inconvenience but I'm very sick and unable to make today's class.- Ken
Thinking: Ken, why do I never apologize when I get sick? Because I don't feel guilty, and the inconvenience will be understood as unavoidable? And what's inconvenient about my not seeing you, again? (However, because he includes the word 'very' he probably is sick this time, but feels guilty about the other times he blew off class. Which almost certainly he did, because, he's always 'not feeling well' but always fat and sassy when I see him.)
Quote from: mahagonny on February 07, 2020, 07:14:57 AM
Professor Mahagonny,
I apologize for the inconvenience but I'm very sick and unable to make today's class.- Ken
Thinking: Ken, why do I never apologize when I get sick? Because I don't feel guilty, and the inconvenience will be understood as unavoidable? And what's inconvenient about my not seeing you, again?
That one is surely a cultural thing. The student has been brought up to understand that his actions--such as not showing up for class--have consequences for others, and to be apologetic for it when it happens, even when it is due to circumstances beyond his control. It's perhaps unnecessary in this case, but still suggests that the student is much more considerate and thoughtful than some.
I do the same thing when I'm unable to meet a commitment due to illness. I don't necessarily feel guilty, but I do feel the need to apologize for not meeting the commitment.
Quote from: apl68 on February 07, 2020, 07:30:03 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on February 07, 2020, 07:14:57 AM
Professor Mahagonny,
I apologize for the inconvenience but I'm very sick and unable to make today's class.- Ken
Thinking: Ken, why do I never apologize when I get sick? Because I don't feel guilty, and the inconvenience will be understood as unavoidable? And what's inconvenient about my not seeing you, again?
That one is surely a cultural thing. The student has been brought up to understand that his actions--such as not showing up for class--have consequences for others, and to be apologetic for it when it happens, even when it is due to circumstances beyond his control. It's perhaps unnecessary in this case, but still suggests that the student is much more considerate and thoughtful than some.
I do the same thing when I'm unable to meet a commitment due to illness. I don't necessarily feel guilty, but I do feel the need to apologize for not meeting the commitment.
So...he comes from a nice family, now if I could just get him to do some work...
thanks, apl68
Well yeah, nice is no substitute for not doing the required work. I've encountered staff members like that as an employer...
QuoteHi Parasaurolophus,
I was curious about eLearn as to why I have a course total of F when I passed both Quiz #1 and #2?
Thanks,
Student
Quote
Hi Student,
That's because each quiz is worth 10%. So even if you got 15/15 on both, that would give you a total in the course so far of 20%, which is well below the passing threshold (50%).
Take care,
-Para
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 11, 2020, 07:36:44 AM
QuoteHi Parasaurolophus,
I was curious about eLearn as to why I have a course total of F when I passed both Quiz #1 and #2?
Thanks,
Student
Quote
Hi Student,
That's because each quiz is worth 10%. So even if you got 15/15 on both, that would give you a total in the course so far of 20%, which is well below the passing threshold (50%).
Take care,
-Para
Is that how your CMS shows grades, or have you specifically set it up this way? It seems confusing to be showing grades of 0 for assessments that haven't yet taken place. The default for our system is that grades are only factored in once they are entered. If there have only been two quizzes thus far, a student who has passed both of them is on track to pass the class. It seems like the current grade they see should reflect that if it is going to be useful.
Quote from: Caracal on February 11, 2020, 09:20:45 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 11, 2020, 07:36:44 AM
QuoteHi Parasaurolophus,
I was curious about eLearn as to why I have a course total of F when I passed both Quiz #1 and #2?
Thanks,
Student
Quote
Hi Student,
That's because each quiz is worth 10%. So even if you got 15/15 on both, that would give you a total in the course so far of 20%, which is well below the passing threshold (50%).
Take care,
-Para
Is that how your CMS shows grades, or have you specifically set it up this way? It seems confusing to be showing grades of 0 for assessments that haven't yet taken place. The default for our system is that grades are only factored in once they are entered. If there have only been two quizzes thus far, a student who has passed both of them is on track to pass the class. It seems like the current grade they see should reflect that if it is going to be useful.
"Average grade to date" and "cumulative grade" both have advantages and disadvantages. The former will often overestimate the final grade, the latter will, by definition, underestimate it. I personally prefer cumulative, because I can tell students "This is what you'd get if you stop now and don't do anything else in the course." If a final exam is worth 40 or 50%, it's possible for a person with an average grade so far of A to still fail the course.
Quote from: Caracal on February 11, 2020, 09:20:45 AM
Is that how your CMS shows grades, or have you specifically set it up this way?
It's how it shows the grades by default. I'm sure I could just hide the final grade column or manually uncheck a 'count as zero' option somewhere if I poked around, but I dunno if I should, really. Once students have done a fair few assignments, rather than just the first couple, it seems useful to know how they're doing, especially just before the final. Shrug. I could go either way.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 11, 2020, 09:43:11 AM
"Average grade to date" and "cumulative grade" both have advantages and disadvantages. The former will often overestimate the final grade, the latter will, by definition, underestimate it. I personally prefer cumulative, because I can tell students "This is what you'd get if you stop now and don't do anything else in the course." If a final exam is worth 40 or 50%, it's possible for a person with an average grade so far of A to still fail the course.
Sure, but I think almost all students are aware of that. I don't love students being able to see their grade at all time on Canvas because I agree that it can sometimes create a weird belief that since they were "getting an A" at some point, something strange and unfair has happened if their grade drops, but I found students just expect it and it isn't a hill worth dying on. Similarly, I think if you have a grade it should probably be the grade the student is currently earning based on the work to that point.
I always muted it (as per a previous forum suggestion) and did an update at the mid-term of their estimated grade to date in person.
Since I was teaching French and there was a recitation component that followed their handing in the mid-term, I used a minute or two of each recitation slot to go over the update (I did a small quarter-page form that I filled in for each student by hand) .
I went over the math with them, showed them their entries to date on their Excel line* and explained how the curve was running and their place in it at that point.
I still had unbelievable responses in a couple of cases.
1. One student--who solemnly agreed with me that coming to every class from that point on was necessary if she were going to pass--never showed up again, and never dropped the class (I did check with the healthcare folks half-way through the second half of the term, telling them why I was concerned, and to have an eye out for her if she presented any upsetting symptoms...).
I worried that something in her turquoise hair dye might have poisoned her, but later saw her around campus (having changed it to bright pink); never did find out what was going on there.
2. Another, which saddened me, thought that because she was doing well up to that point, she didn't need to make up a couple of missed Friday quizzes, and dropped from a high B to a C- (with a couple of other low quiz grades thrown in). I asked her a couple times about the quizzes but she said she had papers for another class that were hard and she was going to work on those instead.
At the end, I asked again, and she explained that she didn't think that her average had gone so low, but she understood and saw it to be her own fault.
It didn't usually have quite that effect, though; usually students were glad to know their standing and what they could do to improve.
I'd probably do something similar again.
-=-=-=-
* I kept my own separate grading table in Excel so I could put forumlae and notes in on a second line for each student. Then at the end, I muted those alternate lines and copied the "straight" grades, which I'd formatted from the CMS, to another page, to be uploaded to the CMS grade shell.
At my request, a student sent me his schedule so we could set up a meeting time...
Before 10am also works. I am usually not in my best state in the morning though.
Quote from: mamselle on February 11, 2020, 05:08:47 PM
I always muted it (as per a previous forum suggestion) and did an update at the mid-term of their estimated grade to date in person.
I did that for a few semesters and got numerous comments on evaluations about how "students had no idea" what their grade was. I know people at other institutions who don't put up grades on the CMS at all and don't get any complaints, so I think it is just one of these expectation things.
Quote from: Liquidambar on February 11, 2020, 06:57:35 PM
At my request, a student sent me his schedule so we could set up a meeting time...
Before 10am also works. I am usually not in my best state in the morning though.
I find this kind of charming in the guilelessness of it. I'm done with my classes on Friday at 2 and usually would have plenty of time to meet with a student then. However, I'm only going to offer this up as a meeting time if we go a couple of rounds of meeting proposals and it turns out there's no other time that would work. I'm certainly not going to write and say "I could meet between 10-11 and 1-2 any day, or after 2 on Friday, but I'd prefer not to because I want to go home and lie on the couch," because nobody cares about my couch time and will ask to meet then if its convenient for them.
Quote from: Caracal on February 12, 2020, 04:46:17 AM
Quote from: Liquidambar on February 11, 2020, 06:57:35 PM
At my request, a student sent me his schedule so we could set up a meeting time...
Before 10am also works. I am usually not in my best state in the morning though.
I find this kind of charming in the guilelessness of it. I'm done with my classes on Friday at 2 and usually would have plenty of time to meet with a student then. However, I'm only going to offer this up as a meeting time if we go a couple of rounds of meeting proposals and it turns out there's no other time that would work. I'm certainly not going to write and say "I could meet between 10-11 and 1-2 any day, or after 2 on Friday, but I'd prefer not to because I want to go home and lie on the couch," because nobody cares about my couch time and will ask to meet then if its convenient for them.
Yes, I always make the students propose a time first, and if they don't in their initial email I tell them one time that suits be absolutely best. If that doesn't work for them, I say, they should tell me their availability.
I have a sense that students are shy to start off with meeting times because that makes them feel like they're taking charge of scheduling in some way, and the power relations really should put the professor in charge. Your groggy-before-10am-student would already be in my good graces, even with the phrasing, because they've made it possible to arrange a meeting time in fewer emails, and that's awesome.
Yes, I thought it was kind of cute. Lucky for the student, I had to teach so a morning meeting wasn't even on the table.
I always tell students to send me their whole schedule for the days we might meet, since otherwise we e-mail back and forth too much with potential times that don't work for the other person. If I get their schedule, instead of the other way around, I can have first pick of a time that doesn't conflict with my nap schedule.
Quote from: apl68 on February 07, 2020, 07:30:03 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on February 07, 2020, 07:14:57 AM
Professor Mahagonny,
I apologize for the inconvenience but I'm very sick and unable to make today's class.- Ken
Thinking: Ken, why do I never apologize when I get sick? Because I don't feel guilty, and the inconvenience will be understood as unavoidable? And what's inconvenient about my not seeing you, again?
That one is surely a cultural thing. The student has been brought up to understand that his actions--such as not showing up for class--have consequences for others, and to be apologetic for it when it happens, even when it is due to circumstances beyond his control. It's perhaps unnecessary in this case, but still suggests that the student is much more considerate and thoughtful than some.
I do the same thing when I'm unable to meet a commitment due to illness. I don't necessarily feel guilty, but I do feel the need to apologize for not meeting the commitment.
He was back today and smelled like a big reefer. Guess he's feeling better. Way better.
"Professor Backatot (yes, they misspelled my name), I can't access modules 3, 4, 5, or 7. Can I e-mail you all of these late assignments?"
Confused, because I never close modules, and they didn't e-mail me about any late assignment, but the student is vaguely familiar, I check the online course. Student is not enrolled. I start to get a funny feeling that is not my chicken curry lunch.
Yup, I was right. Stu Dent took my course TWO semesters ago, and is trying to submit assignments they missed for that course, which caused them to fail.
We finally did sort it out. Stu Dent had enrolled in one of my colleagues' courses for another try, but apparently hadn't realized that it would be a new course shell for a new professor. What do you think are their chances of passing this time, given that it's the middle of February and they're trying to complete MY course shell with the missing assignments (and presumably haven't done anything in the other course)?
Sorry, but, really...what rocks do these people grow up under??
Hope it gets worked out.
M.
Wow. Based on my upbringing, that deserves a "Bless his/her heart!"
Here is the entire email I received, no preface:
"Hey sorry I didn't message sooner, I didn't wanna miss class today, but my cat was getting sick to the stomach last Night and making strange noises he usually doesn't do, so I had to take him to the vet this morning."
Backatit, you just demonstrated the best reason ever to make sure the Canvas course page gets deactivated at the end of each semester! Wow.
Random person on non-university email.
"I'm not in your class but can you send me a study guide for your exam?"
Quote from: Aster on February 27, 2020, 10:12:20 AM
Random person on non-university email.
"I'm not in your class but can you send me a study guide for your exam?"
Favourite answer:
"This isn't for my exam but I hope it helps." accompanied by some random "study guide" found by a google search.
Quote from: mythbuster on February 26, 2020, 02:33:23 PM
Backatit, you just demonstrated the best reason ever to make sure the Canvas course page gets deactivated at the end of each semester! Wow.
That's just it - I teach in Canvas and the course IS closed. That's why they couldn't submit. They couldn't even get INTO the course, but that's how they chose to phrase it, so that it looked like my modules were just closed. I don't do that, but sometimes students do have difficulty with other parts of the submission process (or there's always the possibility that I might do something entirely boneheaded like not check submission types).
It's fortunately all sorted (they weren't working in the other person's course either, and so I guess will have to try again in yet another semester? I don't know how many Hail Mary's they have but I suspect they've used them all at this point.
Quote from: Liquidambar on February 12, 2020, 07:19:24 AM
I always tell students to send me their whole schedule for the days we might meet, since otherwise we e-mail back and forth too much with potential times that don't work for the other person. If I get their schedule, instead of the other way around, I can have first pick of a time that doesn't conflict with my nap schedule.
I'm curious about why people aren't using the calendaring function of their campus email service or at least a tool like When is Good (https://whenisgood.net).
I love Outlook Web Access because I can see which blocks are free for all potential internal attendees instead of doing several emails and a manual check on evolving schedules.
I've gotten to like When is Good for organizing meetings with folks across institutions and then sending a calendar invite through my email that works with most integrated email/calendar programs.
If we're teaching students to function in the modern world, then using the standard-for-at-least-a-decade tools seems like one place to reinforce standard expectations.
That works (in the real world) as long as:
a) People in the office don't just block everything in their calendars all the time, so you still have to call them to set something up.
b) People (or their chimerical EAs, I know...) keep their calendars up-to-date so a scan of all potential meeting participants actually yields some
realistic options.
If your place does, you're really lucky!
I used to have to send around an email saying, "[my boss, the R&D VP] would like to have a meeting next week. Please update your calendars and remove all non-factual blocks, if only temporarily, to facilitate this process," in order to get anywhere.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on February 28, 2020, 05:53:57 AM
That works (in the real world) as long as:
a) People in the office don't just block everything in their calendars all the time, so you still have to call them to set something up.
This is a result of TPTB trying to have too much arbitrary power over others. If they want people to buy in, they need to limit the amount of time people are expected to be "free". No-one wants to have meetings randomly pop in. (Alternatively, TPTB could impose a hard limit on how long in advance they must schedule, so for instance no meeting could be dropped in with less than two weeks' notice.)
A similar example of over restriction resulting in non-compliance is school zone speed limits. On weekends, and during holiday periods school zones should have normal speed limits. That makes it easier to remind people why they
need to slow down
on school days.
To your last point: no, speed limits in school zones are needed at all times.
Little kids go to the playground every day of the week, with (or without) their folks, and they run out into the street after balls, or bicycle around corners without looking whether the adults with them say not to do it, or not.
A reduced speed makes the difference between a broken arm, a body cast, or a body bag.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on February 28, 2020, 10:51:58 AM
To your last point: no, speed limits in school zones are needed at all times.
Little kids go to the playground every day of the week, with (or without) their folks, and they run out into the street after balls, or bicycle around corners without looking whether the adults with them say not to do it, or not.
Then why aren't there the same limits near public parks, where kids will be on weekends and during holidays as well? By making the limits specific to schools, then it implies that schools are unique. On non-school days, there are other places that would be more of a concern, but don't have the same limits. Having rules indicating that
"When kids are around here, people need to slow down" will be more effective than
"SLOW DOWN BECAUSE OF THE CHILDREN!" even at times when there is no reason for there to be any more there than anywhere else (such as 3 a.m.).
Excluded middle much?
M.
The whole point of wrestling with the electronic calendar is exactly figuring out what works and finding coping techniques.
Yes, calendars are often absurdly full. That is one wake-up call for students regarding how busy everyone is. If there's no open slot on my calendar, then we're not meeting this week unless someone who significantly outranks me informs me that's the case or is the person for whom I've been waiting finally had time. Go on to next week or make a really compelling case on the phone for bumping something else scheduled.
Part of the point of having student hours is having that time already set aside for students in the schedule. Students who don't learn to block big chunks on their schedules during college to get things done aren't being prepared for adult life, let alone a professional career.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 28, 2020, 11:21:28 AM
Quote from: mamselle on February 28, 2020, 10:51:58 AM
To your last point: no, speed limits in school zones are needed at all times.
Little kids go to the playground every day of the week, with (or without) their folks, and they run out into the street after balls, or bicycle around corners without looking whether the adults with them say not to do it, or not.
Then why aren't there the same limits near public parks, where kids will be on weekends and during holidays as well? By making the limits specific to schools, then it implies that schools are unique. On non-school days, there are other places that would be more of a concern, but don't have the same limits. Having rules indicating that "When kids are around here, people need to slow down" will be more effective than "SLOW DOWN BECAUSE OF THE CHILDREN!" even at times when there is no reason for there to be any more there than anywhere else (such as 3 a.m.).
In my home town around school zones there would be speed limit signs mounted with flashers. When the flashers were on (during morning/afternoon school pick-up times) the slower speed limits applied. Otherwise the normal speed limits applied.
The flashers worked well to remind people 'no, really--slow down. This speed limit applies right now.'
Quote from: polly_mer on February 28, 2020, 04:44:24 AM
Quote from: Liquidambar on February 12, 2020, 07:19:24 AM
I always tell students to send me their whole schedule for the days we might meet, since otherwise we e-mail back and forth too much with potential times that don't work for the other person. If I get their schedule, instead of the other way around, I can have first pick of a time that doesn't conflict with my nap schedule.
I'm curious about why people aren't using the calendaring function of their campus email service or at least a tool like When is Good (https://whenisgood.net).
Many of us use Doodle or When is Good when scheduling a meeting with more than a couple participants. However, Outlook use on my campus is mostly limited to administrators. When I was hired Outlook wasn't provided for free, so many faculty started using Google calendars on our own. (But our calendars are then associated with our personal e-mail address, so we don't share them with students.*) Students can get Outlook, but their e-mail is through Google so I assume they're more likely to use Google calendars also.
*I actually did have a Google calendar for my research group, but compliance with using it was low. It would have been even lower with Outlook.
My school is a google school, but good luck getting a group of people who all use Google Calendar. So we get doodle polls, and people take a long time to respond, so my availability is often gone by the time someone picks a meeting time.
Repeat of a popular theme... Just got this one.
I was wondering what exactly will we be doing in class on Tuesday? My manager has asked if I can work on Tuesday but I wanted to check and see if we might be doing something extremely important in class before saying yes to him.
This class is set up so that we only have 4 face-to-face meetings all quarter. This is a face-to-face meeting and it's the last day of the quarter (not that it makes any difference - the email is annoying, regardless). Forget this situation in general, this could have been worded a zillion different ways that would have been so much less annoying.
Quote from: KiUlv on March 05, 2020, 08:46:01 PM
Repeat of a popular theme... Just got this one.
I was wondering what exactly will we be doing in class on Tuesday? My manager has asked if I can work on Tuesday but I wanted to check and see if we might be doing something extremely important in class before saying yes to him.
This class is set up so that we only have 4 face-to-face meetings all quarter. This is a face-to-face meeting and it's the last day of the quarter (not that it makes any difference - the email is annoying, regardless). Forget this situation in general, this could have been worded a zillion different ways that would have been so much less annoying.
Just reply with the link (https://www.loc.gov/poetry/180/013.html). It's past tense rather than future, but the point remains.
Quote from: mahagonny on February 13, 2020, 05:09:53 PM
Quote from: apl68 on February 07, 2020, 07:30:03 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on February 07, 2020, 07:14:57 AM
Professor Mahagonny,
I apologize for the inconvenience but I'm very sick and unable to make today's class.- Ken
Thinking: Ken, why do I never apologize when I get sick? Because I don't feel guilty, and the inconvenience will be understood as unavoidable? And what's inconvenient about my not seeing you, again?
That one is surely a cultural thing. The student has been brought up to understand that his actions--such as not showing up for class--have consequences for others, and to be apologetic for it when it happens, even when it is due to circumstances beyond his control. It's perhaps unnecessary in this case, but still suggests that the student is much more considerate and thoughtful than some.
I do the same thing when I'm unable to meet a commitment due to illness. I don't necessarily feel guilty, but I do feel the need to apologize for not meeting the commitment.
He was back today and smelled like a big reefer. Guess he's feeling better. Way better.
And again yesterday. Asked me to provide him with paper copies of the last ten handouts, which I did. Lost his folder. It could get expensive being a pothead who loses things.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 06, 2020, 04:47:55 AM
Just reply with the link (https://www.loc.gov/poetry/180/013.html). It's past tense rather than future, but the point remains.
Nice! I'll have to keep that one bookmarked.
Quote from: mahagonny on March 06, 2020, 04:57:58 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on February 13, 2020, 05:09:53 PM
Quote from: apl68 on February 07, 2020, 07:30:03 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on February 07, 2020, 07:14:57 AM
Professor Mahagonny,
I apologize for the inconvenience but I'm very sick and unable to make today's class.- Ken
Thinking: Ken, why do I never apologize when I get sick? Because I don't feel guilty, and the inconvenience will be understood as unavoidable? And what's inconvenient about my not seeing you, again?
That one is surely a cultural thing. The student has been brought up to understand that his actions--such as not showing up for class--have consequences for others, and to be apologetic for it when it happens, even when it is due to circumstances beyond his control. It's perhaps unnecessary in this case, but still suggests that the student is much more considerate and thoughtful than some.
I do the same thing when I'm unable to meet a commitment due to illness. I don't necessarily feel guilty, but I do feel the need to apologize for not meeting the commitment.
He was back today and smelled like a big reefer. Guess he's feeling better. Way better.
And again yesterday. Asked me to provide him with paper copies of the last ten handouts, which I did. Lost his folder. It could get expensive being a pothead who loses things.
And again today for midterm exam. Well, I won't have to smell this guy's fumes for awhile now. I guess he's just a functioning viper.
I just got an email from a student(s) complaining about how their professor was grading their section of Basketweaving 2 harder than other professors were. They praised their professor, but want some equity.
They sent it from a made-up email like BasketweavingStudent2@gmail.com.
So, a whiny email, a spurious comparison, an anonymous complaint, and it was sent to Professor(s), Me, Dean, Basketweaving Chair, Provost, and President.
I replied to all, except fake-student-email and made it clear I would not be acting on this nonsense.
Quote from: Liquidambar on February 29, 2020, 08:18:14 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on February 28, 2020, 04:44:24 AM
Quote from: Liquidambar on February 12, 2020, 07:19:24 AM
I always tell students to send me their whole schedule for the days we might meet, since otherwise we e-mail back and forth too much with potential times that don't work for the other person. If I get their schedule, instead of the other way around, I can have first pick of a time that doesn't conflict with my nap schedule.
I'm curious about why people aren't using the calendaring function of their campus email service or at least a tool like When is Good (https://whenisgood.net).
Many of us use Doodle or When is Good when scheduling a meeting with more than a couple participants. However, Outlook use on my campus is mostly limited to administrators. When I was hired Outlook wasn't provided for free, so many faculty started using Google calendars on our own. (But our calendars are then associated with our personal e-mail address, so we don't share them with students.*) Students can get Outlook, but their e-mail is through Google so I assume they're more likely to use Google calendars also.
*I actually did have a Google calendar for my research group, but compliance with using it was low. It would have been even lower with Outlook.
Quote from: FishProf on March 01, 2020, 10:26:02 AM
My school is a google school, but good luck getting a group of people who all use Google Calendar. So we get doodle polls, and people take a long time to respond, so my availability is often gone by the time someone picks a meeting time.
I continue to sigh about how common professional class norms don't apply on campus. A functional operation picks one of the standard platforms, ensures everyone has access, and then enforces the norm of using that tool to get things done.
The exact tool doesn't matter, but letting everyone chose their own doesn't work all that well.
But...but...Academic Freedom!
Quote from: polly_mer on March 15, 2020, 07:51:39 AM
I continue to sigh about how common professional class norms don't apply on campus. A functional operation picks one of the standard platforms, ensures everyone has access, and then enforces the norm of using that tool to get things done.
The exact tool doesn't matter, but letting everyone chose their own doesn't work all that well.
Not a justification, but I think it partly stems from the fact that there's such a
galactic range of adoption of technology in academia. At one end, you have the bleeding edge early adopters who are keen to adopt
any potentially useful innovation. At the other end, you have the Jurassic traditionalists who do things the way they did them before the world wide web. So by the time something has become "mainstream", i.e. the normal way for people to do it, the bleeding edge types will have entrenched themselves in different tools for the same purpose, while the traditionalists will grumble at the constant adoption of confusing new-fangled technology when the old way was working perfectly fine.
I liked this one from a "transitioned" class. Here is the message in its entirity.
Quotehi professor,
i realize that for the quiz there were a couple of questions that the system marked wrong but the answers were right.
Quote from: downer on March 20, 2020, 05:08:42 AM
I liked this one from a "transitioned" class. Here is the message in its entirity.
Quotehi professor,
i realize that for the quiz there were a couple of questions that the system marked wrong but the answers were right.
I cannot stop laughing. I don't know why, but I cannot stop. Thank you.
A student of mine who just picked up her exam script (from exams a couple months back) has emailed with a screenshot of the handwritten score on the front, desperate to know if that 65 was actually a 68 (no, it was not).
Quote from: bacardiandlime on March 31, 2020, 01:40:06 AM
A student of mine who just picked up her exam script (from exams a couple months back) has emailed with a screenshot of the handwritten score on the front, desperate to know if that 65 was actually a 68 (no, it was not).
Using a very broad definition of "desperate".
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 31, 2020, 05:36:03 AM
Quote from: bacardiandlime on March 31, 2020, 01:40:06 AM
A student of mine who just picked up her exam script (from exams a couple months back) has emailed with a screenshot of the handwritten score on the front, desperate to know if that 65 was actually a 68 (no, it was not).
Using a very broad definition of "desperate".
Would it change their grade in the course?
Not really, especially now (they are basically waving all the frosh through and grades don't count).
Real favorite:
I just had a very apologetic email from a student (who's been emailing with lots of questions over the past week) sharing with me his revelation that the assignment due today actually wasn't at all difficult once he looked at the recorded tutorials I posted two weeks ago. Key quote: "Honestly, I really appreciate your effort and I love your teaching style. It's a shame that I did not pay attention to the files. "
Aww. Self-knowledge and independent learning: what more can we ask of our students!
Real favorite as well: I had a student email to ask if she can turn in her paper early, which is a first! She wants to use it as a writing sample for a research internship application. I told her she doesn't have to turn it in early for the class, we can just look through her draft together for feedback before she submits it for her application.
Not exactly an email but I can't think where else to put this.
Normally I don't release grades on the cms until I hand back papers in class. I do this so that students will look at my comments and how I've marked the rubric. I write a comment on every essay.
Now all papers are graded online, so I have been releasing grades as soon as all the papers are graded. I wanted to know who was reading my comments, so I added a comment on every single paper: 'If you see this, write to me and say "I SAW YOUR COMMENTS!" and I will give you extra credit!' I pasted this comment in two places, on their papers AND on the rubric, in big bold red letters.
Of 17 students, 11 wrote to me! (I guess this counts as "favorite student emails" for this thread?).
Apparently 6 didn't look at the comments, including one who made a bad grade for not following basic instructions--ironically, my comments included fairly detailed explanation about how she could raise her grade next time.
I'm not sure if I should be happy that nearly 2/3 of the students read my comments, or pissed that I wasted time writing comments for students who didn't read them.
The big end-of-semester project involves submitting a first draft and then a subsequent final submission in which they need to respond to my comments (and also to peer critique comments). Responding to comments is an essential part of the assignment, which is very process-oriented.
Under normal circumstances, when I hand the drafts back in class, I give students time in class to read and ask questions about my comments. I know they read my comments since I watch them do it. Now that we're online, I expect that several students won't bother to read my comments. I am ever so tempted to add a note on each paper requiring some sort of response as evidence that they read my comments, and docking points for those who don't. Thinking about how to implement this properly. I welcome suggestions!
Horse. Water. Drink.
M.
Quote from: hungry_ghost on April 08, 2020, 07:16:00 PM
Not exactly an email but I can't think where else to put this.
Normally I don't release grades on the cms until I hand back papers in class. I do this so that students will look at my comments and how I've marked the rubric. I write a comment on every essay.
Now all papers are graded online, so I have been releasing grades as soon as all the papers are graded. I wanted to know who was reading my comments, so I added a comment on every single paper: 'If you see this, write to me and say "I SAW YOUR COMMENTS!" and I will give you extra credit!' I pasted this comment in two places, on their papers AND on the rubric, in big bold red letters.
Of 17 students, 11 wrote to me! (I guess this counts as "favorite student emails" for this thread?).
Apparently 6 didn't look at the comments, including one who made a bad grade for not following basic instructions--ironically, my comments included fairly detailed explanation about how she could raise her grade next time.
I'm not sure if I should be happy that nearly 2/3 of the students read my comments, or pissed that I wasted time writing comments for students who didn't read them.
The big end-of-semester project involves submitting a first draft and then a subsequent final submission in which they need to respond to my comments (and also to peer critique comments). Responding to comments is an essential part of the assignment, which is very process-oriented.
Under normal circumstances, when I hand the drafts back in class, I give students time in class to read and ask questions about my comments. I know they read my comments since I watch them do it. Now that we're online, I expect that several students won't bother to read my comments. I am ever so tempted to add a note on each paper requiring some sort of response as evidence that they read my comments, and docking points for those who don't. Thinking about how to implement this properly. I welcome suggestions!
I might call this a victory! It's certainly a "learning opportunity" for the students, both the ones that took the time to read your comments and the ones who didn't.
I think I might borrow your idea of putting an extra credit opportunity in the rubric. . .
Quote from: mamselle on April 08, 2020, 07:32:09 PM
Horse. Water. Drink.
M.
Neigh seems to be an all too common response.
Quote from: hungry_ghost on April 08, 2020, 07:16:00 PM
Under normal circumstances, when I hand the drafts back in class, I give students time in class to read and ask questions about my comments. I know they read my comments since I watch them do it. Now that we're online, I expect that several students won't bother to read my comments. I am ever so tempted to add a note on each paper requiring some sort of response as evidence that they read my comments, and docking points for those who don't. Thinking about how to implement this properly. I welcome suggestions!
I have a revision assignment in every comp. course I teach, and I require students to write cover paragraphs identifying the changes they have made to their papers based on my feedback. I grade each draft and revision as separate papers, so this paragraph is worth 10% of the revision grade. They can also use the paragraph to explain why they didn't make a recommended change, or why the change might look different from my initial suggestion. You might not want to do this specifically, but there are lots of ways to build in points (or extra credit) for responses to your feedback.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on April 12, 2020, 12:16:40 PM
Quote from: hungry_ghost on April 08, 2020, 07:16:00 PM
Under normal circumstances, when I hand the drafts back in class, I give students time in class to read and ask questions about my comments. I know they read my comments since I watch them do it. Now that we're online, I expect that several students won't bother to read my comments. I am ever so tempted to add a note on each paper requiring some sort of response as evidence that they read my comments, and docking points for those who don't. Thinking about how to implement this properly. I welcome suggestions!
I have a revision assignment in every comp. course I teach, and I require students to write cover paragraphs identifying the changes they have made to their papers based on my feedback. I grade each draft and revision as separate papers, so this paragraph is worth 10% of the revision grade. They can also use the paragraph to explain why they didn't make a recommended change, or why the change might look different from my initial suggestion. You might not want to do this specifically, but there are lots of ways to build in points (or extra credit) for responses to your feedback.
AR.
Thanks, this is helpful. My assignment is somewhat similar, and I think you understand what I'm aiming for.
My students are already required to include a paragraph in their response letter that addresses how they modified their work in response to to feedback, but I don't specify that they must mention
my feedback. They also get peer critiques of their work and many visit the campus writing center, so they get a lot of feedback. Also, some of my comments are "optional suggestions" (this is appropriate for this particular assignment). I just need to know that they read them. I think I'm just going to add (in red, bold, very conspicuous letters) a note on the first submission rubric along the lines of
Please affirm that you read my comments by adding a brief postscript to your letter saying something like "PS: I read your comments." The postscript is a REQUIRED part of the assignment, even if you mention my comments in the body of your letter. One student will read my comments and engage with them in his revision but forget to do this (and I already know who he is--the same one who would forget his head if it weren't stuck to his neck) but for most students this will be a fair solution.
When our campus closed back in March and classes transitioned to online, I reminded students to TAKE THEIR BOOKS home with them. Now, it's true that these are English lit classes and most of the texts are out of copyright and can be found online, so it's not the end of the world if they didn't take their books, just more work for them. Here's where the "favorite" emails come in:
Final essays are due this week. The assignment for this essay includes a model citation for a text in their anthology. Three students have emailed me with essentially the same story: "I forgot my book, so I'm using a version of [text] I found on the internet. Please send me the page numbers for this text from the anthology so I can cite it." One even asked me for the page number for a specific quote (that one was a bit apologetic for not having taken the book home).
"Dear Stu Dent," I finally broke down, "cite the source you are actually using. This is just common sense."
I almost wrote "I am not your secretary," but deleted that part before sending. I know they are just trying to do things right, but really--!
Subject: The Class Discussions
Hello Professor,
I am not getting credit for the [topic due tonight] sections of the classroom discussions even though I am leaving the comments as directed and watching the videos.
In one of my classes, I divided the students into groups and had them exchange papers and critique them. I posted the groups in Blackboard and told the students to use the message feature to contact one another. The students had two weeks to do this.
Today I got the following email from a student:
"Is there any way I can do the group project alone? I don't know how to get in touch with my group and I feel like I would be better off working on my own. "
Quote from: jerseyjay on April 20, 2020, 07:14:11 PM
In one of my classes, I divided the students into groups and had them exchange papers and critique them. I posted the groups in Blackboard and told the students to use the message feature to contact one another. The students had two weeks to do this.
Today I got the following email from a student:
"Is there any way I can do the group project alone? I don't know how to get in touch with my group and I feel like I would be better off working on my own. "
While that's a very lame/non-excuse for the student, I've always given fairly concrete sub-deadlines for discussions where appropriate so that they will hopefully get it. Perhaps consider having them share papers using the LMS?
(FWIW: Canvas has a peer review feature for this purpose).
Well what got me was not that she couldn't get ahold of her group mates, which is, well, whatever (although I know that her group mates had emailed her). Given the situation of the world, I will overlook this.
What gets me is that she wants to do a group project by herself. When the group project consisted of reading other people's papers.
Quote from: jerseyjay on April 20, 2020, 09:04:34 PM
What gets me is that she wants to do a group project by herself. When the group project consisted of reading other people's papers.
I know some managers and program leaders who have this same mindset. That type of group project is even easier to do alone than a typical group project.
I think it's not that she thinks she can "exchange papers" and do the group project, as designed, all by herself. What she means is, "Since I don't know how to get hold of my group, is there another way I can do something to get a reasonable grade on this, instead of just failing it? I'm willing to do something, but I can't get my group together. Is there a way I could do something else?" I think it's a fair question.
Quote from: Hegemony on April 21, 2020, 04:27:43 AM
I think it's not that she thinks she can "exchange papers" and do the group project, as designed, all by herself. What she means is, "Since I don't know how to get hold of my group, is there another way I can do something to get a reasonable grade on this, instead of just failing it? I'm willing to do something, but I can't get my group together. Is there a way I could do something else?" I think it's a fair question.
That depends on how long it was from the time the assignment was given until she emailed her instructor. If she had problems contacting group members and emailed the instructor within a day or two, that's reasonable, but if she let a week or more go by before trying to sort it out, then it seems pretty clear she was trying to avoid it from Day 1.
Well, I'd dispute that if she waited a week or more, she was trying to avoid the assignment. My son, a high school senior, has a required group project this semester, now turned into an online group project. He's been waiting for the other group members to contact him and get it going, basically because he's shy. He does know them in real life, but they're not close friends. After quite some time, and some egging on from me, he sent out a message about "Should we get this project going?" No answer from anyone. I said, "Are you sure you have their right contact details?" He said, "I thought so. But how would I know?" Which is a fair point. Finally sent out a second query. No answer from anyone. Now, ideally he should have sent out a message the first day or so. But he didn't. I can imagine this same scenario playing out in college.
This is yet another reason I hate group projects and never assign them. They depend so much on everyone being responsible and pulling their weight, and how often does that happen? And the other students have little leverage if it doesn't.
Well, to get into the weeds: this assignment was to take the place of what we would normally do in class: have each student bring in a copy of his or her term paper, get into groups with two or three other students, read each other's drafts, and offer thoughts.
The students have been working on the final project--which is worth about 40 per cent of the final grade--the entire semester, and have done two rounds of revisions based on my feedback. I am sick of reading them and do not want to read them again until they are final, but I wanted the students to get the benefit of a fresh pair of eyes.
Anybody who writes up comments on his or her group's drafts gets full credit for the assignment (which is worth about 2.5% of the total grade). If a group member went awol, he or she wouldn't get points, but the other students would, assuming they read each other's drafts. (I structured the groups so there were enough strong students in each group that they could finish the assignment regardless of what their groupmates did.) The students had two weeks to do it, and were to contact each other using the messenger feature in the LMS, which is also linked to the university email.
So the only way a student could not do the assignment is either he or she did not do the paper at all or something extraordinary has happened to the student (which is possible in the current context), and since in the former case the student would flunk anyway, or in the latter case would probably be excused anyway, I am rather lenient--including with the student who wrote the email.
But to write an email, the day that this two-week assignment is due, asking, in effect, if he could read his own paper and offer comments on it, struck me as either so clueless or so guileless to be worth noting to this forum. Of course, I didn't so to the student.
Quote from: jerseyjay on April 22, 2020, 10:51:55 AM
Well, to get into the weeds: this assignment was to take the place of what we would normally do in class: have each student bring in a copy of his or her term paper, get into groups with two or three other students, read each other's drafts, and offer thoughts.
The students have been working on the final project--which is worth about 40 per cent of the final grade--the entire semester, and have done two rounds of revisions based on my feedback. I am sick of reading them and do not want to read them again until they are final, but I wanted the students to get the benefit of a fresh pair of eyes.
Anybody who writes up comments on his or her group's drafts gets full credit for the assignment (which is worth about 2.5% of the total grade). If a group member went awol, he or she wouldn't get points, but the other students would, assuming they read each other's drafts. (I structured the groups so there were enough strong students in each group that they could finish the assignment regardless of what their groupmates did.) The students had two weeks to do it, and were to contact each other using the messenger feature in the LMS, which is also linked to the university email.
So the only way a student could not do the assignment is either he or she did not do the paper at all or something extraordinary has happened to the student (which is possible in the current context), and since in the former case the student would flunk anyway, or in the latter case would probably be excused anyway, I am rather lenient--including with the student who wrote the email.
But to write an email, the day that this two-week assignment is due, asking, in effect, if he could read his own paper and offer comments on it, struck me as either so clueless or so guileless to be worth noting to this forum. Of course, I didn't so to the student.
This was what I was imagining, hence my response.
Stu Dent: "Can I redo the homework assignment from last month? I'm really serious about this course and concerned that I might not pass?"
Ha ha. You made three funnies in one sentence. You want a "redo" on something that you already submitted. This thing that you want a redo on was turned in over a month ago, but now a week from the end of the semester you decide to communicate about it. And you are really serious about this class, yet somehow your grades have mostly been all failing. How did you think that any professor would respond to this message? With anything other than a chuckle and murmur of disbelief?
Quote from: Aster on April 22, 2020, 06:34:30 PM
Stu Dent: "Can I redo the homework assignment from last month? I'm really serious about this course and concerned that I might not pass?"
Ha ha. You made three funnies in one sentence. You want a "redo" on something that you already submitted. This thing that you want a redo on was turned in over a month ago, but now a week from the end of the semester you decide to communicate about it. And you are really serious about this class, yet somehow your grades have mostly been all failing. How did you think that any professor would respond to this message? With anything other than a chuckle and murmur of disbelief?
But... all my teachers in K-12 always made sure that I passed! Especially after I told them how serious and concerned I am about the course! What's WRONG with you!?! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Mommy, help!!!!!!!!!!!!
And so it begins . .
First email of the season with grade-grubbing trifecta (paraphrased): 1) is there any way they could earn just 5 little teensy weensy extra points; 2) if there is not an option for additional work, they are soooooooooo close to an A, will I just round up?; and 3) it's probably not possible, but it's better to ask even if it doesn't happen, right?
The answers in my head: 1) kudos to you for actually using the term "earn" but No; 2) there are already way too many bonus opportunities in this class because it is "hard;" so No; and 3) No, it's not better to ask, you are a grad student; now either go enjoy your semester break with the knowledge that you have passed this class or, better yet, go write your dissertation!
Stu Dent, on the very last day that the final exam is due.
"Everything is so crazy right now and I don't have a computer and I couldn't ever find the assignments but I'll fail the course unless you can let me take all of the assignments now."
And then an hour later, I receive almost an identically worded email from a *different* student.
Looking up both of these students records, neither of them had been turning in much or anything prior to the pandemic, both of these students had poor classroom attendance prior to the pandemic, and both of these students would almost certainly get an F for being total slackers in any normal semester.
But it's nice to see that slacker students are finding ways to insert the pandemic into their BS.
Stu Dent inquiring about a course grade from previous year.
"I noticed that I got a D last semester. Please change that to a permanent incomplete."
Well, that's a new one for me. A request for an Incomplete five months after the term ended. And the student took all the exams. There isn't anything incomplete to request an incomplete for. And what the heck is a permanent incomplete?
So many things wrong.
Quote from: Aster on May 05, 2020, 07:12:14 AM
Stu Dent inquiring about a course grade from previous year.
"I noticed that I got a D last semester. Please change that to a permanent incomplete."
Well, that's a new one for me. A request for an Incomplete five months after the term ended. And the student took all the exams. There isn't anything incomplete to request an incomplete for. And what the heck is a permanent incomplete?
So many things wrong.
Many of my students are still (not) working on
permanent incompletes. "Don't hold your breath" might be a better notation. See if your Registrar would go for it.
I received this yesterday:
It's so p p the app imagine mynah
Get Outlook for iOSllm
Look mmm bff
---
I replied: "OK"
Quote from: bacardiandlime on May 06, 2020, 07:08:31 AM
I received this yesterday:
It's so p p the app imagine mynah
Get Outlook for iOSllm
Look mmm bff
---
I replied: "OK"
Are you sure that wasn't a Windows error message?
"Hi Fishprof,
I wanted to let you know I had to drop out of your class. I can't keep up with the amount of work, with my daughter's school and sharing one computer. I think this is an unreasonable amount of work in such a short time.
Thanks for your time,"
Thanks for your useless feedback. Taking a course in the summer is faster (6 weeks vs. 16, go figure).
Quote from: FishProf on June 05, 2020, 06:07:06 AM
"Hi Fishprof,
I wanted to let you know I had to drop out of your class. I can't keep up with the amount of work, with my daughter's school and sharing one computer. I think this is an unreasonable amount of work in such a short time.
Thanks for your time,"
Thanks for your useless feedback. Taking a course in the summer is faster (6 weeks vs. 16, go figure).
Hey, that Stu is also taking my spouse's course! Or, maybe the daughter is.
Our compression is even worse -- 15 into 5. Which is really less, since it's only 4 weekends.
Quote from: dr_codex on June 05, 2020, 07:11:49 AM
Quote from: FishProf on June 05, 2020, 06:07:06 AM
"Hi Fishprof,
I wanted to let you know I had to drop out of your class. I can't keep up with the amount of work, with my daughter's school and sharing one computer. I think this is an unreasonable amount of work in such a short time.
Thanks for your time,"
Thanks for your useless feedback. Taking a course in the summer is faster (6 weeks vs. 16, go figure).
Hey, that Stu is also taking my spouse's course! Or, maybe the daughter is.
Our compression is even worse -- 15 into 5. Which is really less, since it's only 4 weekends.
Our is 8 vs. 16 so it's not as bad. I had one student this summer send this one about one of our part-time faculty after she dropped the course:
"I was so unhappy with the changing workload, added assignments, and aggressive communication from my instructor that I felt I had no choice but to withdraw from this course.
I didn't mention it to (the advisor) before, but he emailed me on a Sunday night about work that was not due until July 15th. Again on Memorial Day. Then he suddenly added more assignments due within days, and the museum requirement.
I will have to try this course again, but not with him. Now I understand why there were so many openings for his classes, but waiting lists for other instructors."
Students in online classes receive notifications when assignments become available, the assignments are on release schedule. I can only assume this students hasn't taken an online course before. I do have to admit this is the first time in 7 years here that I have had a student complain about an instructor communicating
too much.
We offer several short-session classes. Students in the non-majors "basketweaving + lab" are sometimes upset/surprised that they are expected to do just as much work as the 10 week class in just 5 weeks. Yes, labs do meet twice a week. No, that does not mean you only need to go to one of them. I think some of them are hoping that they have found a magic way to get the same credits for 1/2 the work. Nope, that's not how this works.
Quote from: bacardiandlime on May 06, 2020, 07:08:31 AM
I received this yesterday:
It's so p p the app imagine mynah
Get Outlook for iOSllm
Look mmm bff
---
I replied: "OK"
I sometimes take my phone out of my pocket and find that it has opened the messenger app and entered some text or opened some app that I haven't used in weeks. It is always a bit disconcerting. Sometimes it seems to open apps when it is just sitting on a desk and I'm in the other room.
My guess is that the student's phone went one step further and hit send.
I get an email from a student who is confused about what is going on with the class, he'd like me to give him a "quick rundown" of what is going on. It is an online class. All the communication with students outside of individual emails has been through the CMS. There's no separate place I've been secretly explaining how the class works..
QuoteHey, I don't know if its just me or what, but your lecture videos go online a day later than they're supposed to. I can't watch the lectures before I do the assignments and now I don't know how to do the midterm.
So no other student has had problems accessing the video. I upload a week's worth of material -- lectures, assignments, links to submit assignments -- on the Sunday before. I just have the CMS make visible the material on a schedule. He should see the lecture and the assignment at the same time. I ask our faculty learning folks why he'd see a document and not the video, or that the video would be visible 24 hours later. Their response:
QuoteNot only is there no reason why he'd be unable to see the videos, but logs show he's been accessing the videos on the day they were made available.
Quote from: RatGuy on June 08, 2020, 09:52:17 AM
QuoteHey, I don't know if its just me or what, but your lecture videos go online a day later than they're supposed to. I can't watch the lectures before I do the assignments and now I don't know how to do the midterm.
Fixed that.
"Hi Fishprof,
I am really stuck with the [Classifying Baskets] lab. I don't know what to do next.
Thank you,
Committed but struggling"
I don't know what you should do next either. Perhaps you should tell me where you are stuck.
Quote from: FishProf on June 09, 2020, 11:42:38 AM
"Hi Fishprof,
I am really stuck with the [Classifying Baskets] lab. I don't know what to do next.
Thank you,
Committed but struggling"
I don't know what you should do next either. Perhaps you should tell me where you are stuck.
In person version of this from the first time I ran labs as a TA — I finally announced that from that point forward anyone who asked me a question like "should I add X to my tube now" without telling me what step they were on would get the answer "yes".
I've had a handful of emails like this one:
QuoteHello,
I hope all is well with you.
I am in [TAs] lab section that is at 11am on wednesdays. I emailed him first and he told me it would be best to explain my situation to you.
I just checked my grade for the lab section and noticed that it was very low. I didn't realize that we had to do quizzes every week along with the worksheets, so I have zeros for all of them.
I understand that this is my fault because I didn't check my grades, and forgot about the quizzes after the first week. I had a hard time keeping track of everything because this quarter was very overwhelming for me as I had some family members get sick with the coronavirus.
I was very active in discussion and would have completed these assignments if I was aware of them but I don't think you mentioned them because we only went over the worksheets (which I completed every week) I'm not trying to excuse my mistake but I was wondering if you could tell me how much this will affect my overall grade. I currently have a 59% in discussion because of this and a 82% in lecture.
Thank you for your time,
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 09, 2020, 12:50:36 PM
I've had a handful of emails like this one:
QuoteHello,
I hope all is well with you.
I am in [TAs] lab section that is at 11am on wednesdays. I emailed him first and he told me it would be best to explain my situation to you.
I just checked my grade for the lab section and noticed that it was very low. I didn't realize that we had to do quizzes every week along with the worksheets, so I have zeros for all of them.
I understand that this is my fault because I didn't check my grades, and forgot about the quizzes after the first week. I had a hard time keeping track of everything because this quarter was very overwhelming for me as I had some family members get sick with the coronavirus.
I was very active in discussion and would have completed these assignments if I was aware of them but I don't think you mentioned them because we only went over the worksheets (which I completed every week) I'm not trying to excuse my mistake but I was wondering if you could tell me how much this will affect my overall grade. I currently have a 59% in discussion because of this and a 82% in lecture.
Thank you for your time,
Was it in the syllabus and did you have a syllabus quiz? I'm betting that the answer is yes to both.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 09, 2020, 02:57:34 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 09, 2020, 12:50:36 PM
I've had a handful of emails like this one:
QuoteHello,
I hope all is well with you.
I am in [TAs] lab section that is at 11am on wednesdays. I emailed him first and he told me it would be best to explain my situation to you.
I just checked my grade for the lab section and noticed that it was very low. I didn't realize that we had to do quizzes every week along with the worksheets, so I have zeros for all of them.
I understand that this is my fault because I didn't check my grades, and forgot about the quizzes after the first week. I had a hard time keeping track of everything because this quarter was very overwhelming for me as I had some family members get sick with the coronavirus.
I was very active in discussion and would have completed these assignments if I was aware of them but I don't think you mentioned them because we only went over the worksheets (which I completed every week) I'm not trying to excuse my mistake but I was wondering if you could tell me how much this will affect my overall grade. I currently have a 59% in discussion because of this and a 82% in lecture.
Thank you for your time,
Was it in the syllabus and did you have a syllabus quiz? I'm betting that the answer is yes to both.
Is this going to cause him to fail? Does your school have a pass/fail option this semester? I mean, he screwed up and it can't be fixed retroactively, but losing focus during a global pandemic in which all of your classes got moved to a different format than the one you signed up for is pretty understandable. I wouldn't really want to send this student a lecturey email about the syllabus.
Quote from: Caracal on June 10, 2020, 04:27:36 AM
Is this going to cause him to fail? Does your school have a pass/fail option this semester? I mean, he screwed up and it can't be fixed retroactively, but losing focus during a global pandemic in which all of your classes got moved to a different format than the one you signed up for is pretty understandable. I wouldn't really want to send this student a lecturey email about the syllabus.
This is a lab. One of the professional socialization aspects is reading and following all the instructions.
Dropping one's classes due to the chaos is understandable.
Missing everything for a week or two in the middle of chaos in transition is understandable.
Claiming to forget a standard part of lab courses just because that part was now online is a fail on many levels. The quizzes are assessment tools to demonstrate particular knowledge and skills. Not demonstrating that knowledge and skills at an acceptable level means one cannot go on to the next course in the sequence.
Quote from: polly_mer on June 10, 2020, 06:42:16 AM
Quote from: Caracal on June 10, 2020, 04:27:36 AM
Is this going to cause him to fail? Does your school have a pass/fail option this semester? I mean, he screwed up and it can't be fixed retroactively, but losing focus during a global pandemic in which all of your classes got moved to a different format than the one you signed up for is pretty understandable. I wouldn't really want to send this student a lecturey email about the syllabus.
This is a lab. One of the professional socialization aspects is reading and following all the instructions.
Dropping one's classes due to the chaos is understandable.
Missing everything for a week or two in the middle of chaos in transition is understandable.
Claiming to forget a standard part of lab courses just because that part was now online is a fail on many levels. The quizzes are assessment tools to demonstrate particular knowledge and skills. Not demonstrating that knowledge and skills at an acceptable level means one cannot go on to the next course in the sequence.
I have to agree with polly on this one.
The quizzes, their points values, and due dates were all listed in the syllabus. The first quiz included questions like "True or False: You will have a quiz due at the start of lab every week."
The CMS sent out an email when all assignments were available (quizzes & worksheets).
All assignments were listed in the same "Assignments" page in their CMS every week.
All assignments showed up as a graded column in the online grade book.
And to be flexible with student schedules, the quizzes were all available for at least 24 hours before the due date instead of just the first 10 minutes of class. Worksheets were due 4 days after lab ended instead of at the end of the lab session.
I don't know how much more scaffolding is needed.
At some point, being responsible for reading the syllabus, looking at the CMS site, checking your grades, and reading your email has to fall on the student.
Yes, we do have a Pass/Fail and late Withdraw options for the students.
Quote from: polly_mer on June 10, 2020, 06:42:16 AM
Quote from: Caracal on June 10, 2020, 04:27:36 AM
Is this going to cause him to fail? Does your school have a pass/fail option this semester? I mean, he screwed up and it can't be fixed retroactively, but losing focus during a global pandemic in which all of your classes got moved to a different format than the one you signed up for is pretty understandable. I wouldn't really want to send this student a lecturey email about the syllabus.
This is a lab. One of the professional socialization aspects is reading and following all the instructions.
Dropping one's classes due to the chaos is understandable.
Missing everything for a week or two in the middle of chaos in transition is understandable.
Claiming to forget a standard part of lab courses just because that part was now online is a fail on many levels. The quizzes are assessment tools to demonstrate particular knowledge and skills. Not demonstrating that knowledge and skills at an acceptable level means one cannot go on to the next course in the sequence.
Reading comprehension issues again. I didn't suggest that he get a pass on any of this, just that this wasn't the time to give lectures. I asked about the pass/fail because this is an easier discussion if he can squeak through regardless.
Quote from: Caracal on June 10, 2020, 07:00:55 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 10, 2020, 06:42:16 AM
Quote from: Caracal on June 10, 2020, 04:27:36 AM
Is this going to cause him to fail? Does your school have a pass/fail option this semester? I mean, he screwed up and it can't be fixed retroactively, but losing focus during a global pandemic in which all of your classes got moved to a different format than the one you signed up for is pretty understandable. I wouldn't really want to send this student a lecturey email about the syllabus.
This is a lab. One of the professional socialization aspects is reading and following all the instructions.
Dropping one's classes due to the chaos is understandable.
Missing everything for a week or two in the middle of chaos in transition is understandable.
Claiming to forget a standard part of lab courses just because that part was now online is a fail on many levels. The quizzes are assessment tools to demonstrate particular knowledge and skills. Not demonstrating that knowledge and skills at an acceptable level means one cannot go on to the next course in the sequence.
Reading comprehension issues again. I didn't suggest that he get a pass on any of this, just that this wasn't the time to give lectures. I asked about the pass/fail because this is an easier discussion if he can squeak through regardless.
I emailed back to let the student know about the Pass/Fail and Withdraw options and the deadline to choose. Labs are only 30% of the class grade so it's possible to pass the class, even with a failing score in lab.
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 11, 2020, 08:40:57 AM
Quote from: Caracal on June 10, 2020, 07:00:55 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 10, 2020, 06:42:16 AM
Quote from: Caracal on June 10, 2020, 04:27:36 AM
Is this going to cause him to fail? Does your school have a pass/fail option this semester? I mean, he screwed up and it can't be fixed retroactively, but losing focus during a global pandemic in which all of your classes got moved to a different format than the one you signed up for is pretty understandable. I wouldn't really want to send this student a lecturey email about the syllabus.
This is a lab. One of the professional socialization aspects is reading and following all the instructions.
Dropping one's classes due to the chaos is understandable.
Missing everything for a week or two in the middle of chaos in transition is understandable.
Claiming to forget a standard part of lab courses just because that part was now online is a fail on many levels. The quizzes are assessment tools to demonstrate particular knowledge and skills. Not demonstrating that knowledge and skills at an acceptable level means one cannot go on to the next course in the sequence.
Reading comprehension issues again. I didn't suggest that he get a pass on any of this, just that this wasn't the time to give lectures. I asked about the pass/fail because this is an easier discussion if he can squeak through regardless.
I emailed back to let the student know about the Pass/Fail and Withdraw options and the deadline to choose. Labs are only 30% of the class grade so it's possible to pass the class, even with a failing score in lab.
Seems pretty reasonable. Being kind, reasonable and helpful can be done while you uphold basic standards.
I just got an email from a student, complaining about a summer [Basketweaving II] course. The email (which was a Wall-Of-Text Run-on-Sentance-Fragment) boils down to:
1) I am doing doing badly
2) I got zeros for homework that was graded on mastery (i.e. Get >80% = Full points. <80% = No points. Do it as many times as needed to get to 80%). Student pointed out that this cost hu a pass in the[Basketweaving I] which she took with this professor - because she didn't even know about the policy until this summer.
3) STUDENT had to take the class online b/c CV19.
4) Student has a disability which isn't being accommodated b/c it hasn't been documented to our office, so NO LETTER. Even though professor has been notified by student.
5) Student learns very differently from other students, doesn't fit 'in the box' but is writing to protect other students.
My responses (paraphrased~ish)
1) Sorry to hear that
2) Yup. That's what Mastery learning means. Also, how did you NOT know when you failed a course for this before?
3) You and the rest of the planet.
4) No letter = no accomodation.
5) You can only worry about yourself (also, the entire rest of the class has a 74 or better).
This is a direct consequence of fixing a ridiculously uneven and lax delivery of theses courses, at the behest of the majors that require them. But those departments, which WANT us to weed out the poor students, are constantly interfering on behalf of the students who "really are good students". How would you know. You don't get them until after they pass our courses.
My institution decided to start this coming Fall semester in-person a week early. Since that announcement was made several weeks ago, we have received a series of vague emails that offer no explanation of how we will do anything, except for masks are required on campus (good luck enforcing that), faculty will clean in between classrooms (yeah, right), and our classrooms are now only allowed to hold 1/3rd of the capacity (so what do we do with the other 2/3 of the students enrolled?)
Within a day of receiving the original calendar adjustment announcement, a student in my Fall class emailed me to tell me hu could not attend class during the adjusted first week so I needed to start class during the original start week to accommodate hu's schedule (ahem, there are other people in the class besides hu)!
All I could respond was something like "I just learned this yesterday when you did. I am currently teaching summer classes and have not prepared for Fall yet. Thanks for the advance notice, but I cannot guarantee anything that works around your schedule if the semester is supposed to start a week early. I will follow up with you in August." I did not receive a reply, but I am holding onto the possibility that I may be able to just do synchronous video classes from home like I did in the Spring when the institution closed and this particular student will have to meet with me separately during the first week. August seems so far away...
Multiple variations of "I put down answer A, but the computer says I put down C. I believe I deserve full points for the quiz".
So, you answered incorrectly, but you meant to answer correctly, and that should get you full credit?
I just had a student email me about due dates. Apparently this student thought the due dates were just 'a guide' to keep students on track, as was the case in hu's class LAST semester.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 30, 2020, 10:16:18 AM
I just had a student email me about due dates. Apparently this student thought the due dates were just 'a guide' to keep students on track, as was the case in hu's class LAST semester.
Ah yes, the wishful thinking that online = self-paced.
A student who I do not advise is submitting a final project to graduate (due tomorrow) - I taught hu maybe a year ago - wrote me an email tonight without any sort of greeting that read, "Would you proofread my references before I submit my project?" I cannot proofread anyone's final project, even my own advisees', but I also had not heard from this student for a year and was surprised it had no greeting like "Dear darkstarrynight." I am ignoring it.
This is a new one.
"The reason I'm reaching out is to see if knew WHY BW 300 - Oval Baskets became BW 200 - Oval Baskets? When I took the course in 2005, it was BW 300, but since then is now BW 200."
You took the course fifteen years ago. It was changed thirteen years ago. Why do you need to know now? Don't you think THAT would've been good to lead with? Rather than the demand for an explanation?
And yes, the WHY was in the original email.
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 30, 2020, 11:16:37 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 30, 2020, 10:16:18 AM
I just had a student email me about due dates. Apparently this student thought the due dates were just 'a guide' to keep students on track, as was the case in hu's class LAST semester.
Ah yes, the wishful thinking that online = self-paced.
Someone I know who teaches online does this. Basically, if you finish a module, then you can go on to the next. Don't recommend it.
I sent my usual "it is mathematically impossible for you to pass this class" email today, as the LDW is this coming Friday. Of the seven I sent, I've had two replies--both THANKING me for letting them know. One even apologized, saying that she knows she didn't do well in the class, but that she still learned a lot (I'd imagine things like time management, etc.--she made deadlines, but her skills are just so poor.....)
I'm stunned. Usually the students who receive these ignore them (and don't drop, and earn F's). Occasionally someone wants to argue (generally speaking, the lower their point total, the angrier they are and the more wrong they try to say I am).
In all these years, I've never had a student say "thank you." So I guess these really ARE favorite emails!
Got an odd one today:
QuoteGood afternoon!
Hope you are doing well! My name is [student] and I am an incoming sophomore majoring in Cell and Molecular Biology at [Other University]. I am trying to take the [Basketweaving 101 lab] at your institution and was wondering what steps I needed to take to enroll. I was also wondering if I could possibly get a syllabus for the course as it is required to approve the transfer credit at my school. I have completed all the prerequisites at my current university. Thank you so much!
Best,
[not my student]
Apply for and get accepted at [This University]? I don't think we allow students to do a la carte registration during the academic year.
I've had the occasional student from some other university in my class; I don't know how or why. Bounce the email over to the Registrar's.
Lots of universities have agreements with neighbouring ones that could explain the request.
Quote from: the_geneticist on August 10, 2020, 03:54:56 PM
Got an odd one today:
QuoteGood afternoon!
Hope you are doing well! My name is [student] and I am an incoming sophomore majoring in Cell and Molecular Biology at [Other University]. I am trying to take the [Basketweaving 101 lab] at your institution and was wondering what steps I needed to take to enroll. I was also wondering if I could possibly get a syllabus for the course as it is required to approve the transfer credit at my school. I have completed all the prerequisites at my current university. Thank you so much!
Best,
[not my student]
Apply for and get accepted at [This University]? I don't think we allow students to do a la carte registration during the academic year.
Some places do allow students to take a certain number of credits without being admitted, or being admitted to a "general education college" with different requirements, ostensibly designed for [beginning] returning adult students. I agree to forward/refer it to the registrars office or admissions.
Quote from: bio-nonymous on August 12, 2020, 06:17:03 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on August 10, 2020, 03:54:56 PM
Got an odd one today:
QuoteGood afternoon!
Hope you are doing well! My name is [student] and I am an incoming sophomore majoring in Cell and Molecular Biology at [Other University]. I am trying to take the [Basketweaving 101 lab] at your institution and was wondering what steps I needed to take to enroll. I was also wondering if I could possibly get a syllabus for the course as it is required to approve the transfer credit at my school. I have completed all the prerequisites at my current university. Thank you so much!
Best,
[not my student]
Apply for and get accepted at [This University]? I don't think we allow students to do a la carte registration during the academic year.
Some places do allow students to take a certain number of credits without being admitted, or being admitted to a "general education college" with different requirements, ostensibly designed for [beginning] returning adult students. I agree to forward/refer it to the registrars office or admissions.
We do have an "extension" program that allows students to take a class or two, I'd forgotten about that. I'll email the student to let them know who to contact.
Problem is: the lab is not a stand-alone class and it doesn't count for science majors (no prerequisites).
Ah well, that's not my problem to solve. The student would honestly have a better chance of getting into the class for science majors as the non-majors version always has a huge waitlist.
Aurgh, I am being besieged by disgruntled students:
"Dear Proffessor, I do not like the score I got on my last paper, also my midterm, I do not feel good about these scores. I need to take those over again so I can live up to my model of my self. I ask you then to set it up so I can do those again."
and:
"Hi Heg, You said the paper had to be 1000-1200 words but I can't fit in what I need to say in 1200 words. On my last paper you said I did not use enough examples or facts so I need more words so I can follow your instructions. I need at least 2000 words, that is the length where I do my best work. So I will write 2000 words for this paper so I can do what you told me to do."
It's funny that all the other students manage to fit facts and examples in their 1200-word papers. It must be some kind of physics anomaly. And of course I will let the first student completely redo the paper and the midterm, which means I will have to let all 49 other students redo theirs as well, but what are 98 new assignments to grade? It's worth it to make the customer happy, right?
(And these are just the ones that have arrived in the last half hour. What is UP with these people?? Grumble, grumble.)
As the Brits say, they're "trying it on."
I'd call the first one's bluff, and explain to the other one that staying within text limits is an important skill to have in the "real world."
As in, I've written for journalism: if you get x column inches, your paragraph can get cut off mid-sentence, or just about, if you overrun it.
So...a dose of real life for each...medicine for the soul.
M.
Random questions:
1) Could this be something to do with the pandemic, kids overstressed, wigging out, etc., much moreso than would otherwise be expected? On the front page of today's Boston Globe, today, there was a headline reading 'Welcome to College. Now Go to Your Room.' You can perhaps guess the trajectory of this article...
2) WRT writing papers substantially longer than the high-end of the assignment: is this not better than underwriting the thing, (and this is important) so long as the thing is well-written, answers the questions in full, does not use excessively wordy or irrelevant language, and, perhaps, might even answer some points that the professor may not even have contemplated when issuing the assignment (I recall getting an A+ for a survey class I took in grad school 'Intro to Romance Linguistics' for writing about 18pp for an assignment for a 'mini-paper' 3-5pp., that had a specific assignment to answer. I answered it. In full, and very well (I was highly motivated for this). I still cannot see how it could possibly have been competently answered in 5pp. Having done this, I did it again, with the same success, for the second 'mini-paper' assignment that semester).
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 30, 2020, 10:17:27 PM
Random questions:
1) Could this be something to do with the pandemic, kids overstressed, wigging out, etc., much moreso than would otherwise be expected? On the front page of today's Boston Globe, today, there was a headline reading 'Welcome to College. Now Go to Your Room.' You can perhaps guess the trajectory of this article...
2) WRT writing papers substantially longer than the high-end of the assignment: is this not better than underwriting the thing, (and this is important) so long as the thing is well-written, answers the questions in full, does not use excessively wordy or irrelevant language, and, perhaps, might even answer some points that the professor may not even have contemplated when issuing the assignment (I recall getting an A+ for a survey class I took in grad school 'Intro to Romance Linguistics' for writing about 18pp for an assignment for a 'mini-paper' 3-5pp., that had a specific assignment to answer. I answered it. In full, and very well (I was highly motivated for this). I still cannot see how it could possibly have been competently answered in 5pp. Having done this, I did it again, with the same success, for the second 'mini-paper' assignment that semester).
In your second example, I would have only graded your first 5 pages. Following directions is an excellent life skill.
Yes, that's (just grading the amount of text required and no more) what I was implying.
I nearly circled back with an edit to add that idea: writing tight is indeed a life skill.
M.
I admit the thought had crossed my mind back in the day that she might do this. But the question given on the assignment could not be properly answered in 5pp. I was a grad student, and knew this. So what to do? Had she done as you suggested I would have insisted that she tell me how I could have followed this direction and correctly answered the question, by telling me what parts of my paper could have been omitted, and still have answered it correctly. I admit I have muse over the years as to why the page limit in the term paper was given as it was, when it was so manifestly too short to properly answer the question. Since this woman was otherwise competent, if not brilliant (though her knowledge of Latin was nonexistent, which was surprising for someone who was supposedly a 'Romance linguist' (her language specialty was French), I basically have concluded, given my experience in this class and with the students in it (it was a required class for all MA students in the Romance language dept), that the student competence level was pretty low and she did not expect that the average student there would have been able to more completely answer the question, and the assignment was merely given as an overview.
I had a professor in graduate school who assigned huge topics (e.g. "describe the role of religion in this week's medieval text") with a hard 2 or 3 page limit. Those were the most difficult papers I've ever written, and I received some of the best feedback I've ever gotten. I think of that every time I apply for a grant or fellowship with a short page limit or word count. Great training for real life.
And I also would have stopped grading after page 5.
AR.
One of my mentors in grad school would tell me "I see you've given written a long report/paper/draft because you haven't taken the time to write a short one." Writing concisely is skill, and, like others have said, is a skill directly applicable to grant applications and publication word limits.
A teaching mentor used to say: Undergrads need page/word minimums; graduate students need page/word maximums. While it's not universally true (some of the grad students I teach are overly concise in their written work), it's a general trend.
I have heard arguments like this one. They do sound more ego-driven than most. Obviously the woman agreed with my decision to write the papers the way I did, answering her question. But like I said, had I written the paper that way and been flunked, I would have insisted she tell me which data and conclusions I had written could have been omitted, and have the paper been successfully written. I would expect no less from my students, but then again I do not give them max pp limits.
If I allow one student to write a paper twice the length of the assignment, I need to allow them all to do that. I certainly do not have the time to read twice as many pages as assigned. A 1000-word paper is not an extreme request. The topic is quite small, and they're asked to choose 1-2 examples from the reading and discuss them. This particular student is incredibly wordy — the kind who begins a paper "Ever since the beginning of civilization, people have wondered why things are the way they are. People have written books about it. Lots of people have wondered lots of things. In ancient Rome, a man named Pliny wrote about the way the world is. [Pliny is unrelated to the current course, but student has obviously taken Western Civ.] In ancient Greece, the Grecians wondered about it. Moses who wrote the bible probably wondered about these things too but we do not know everything he wondered about because many writings have been lost but probably not the bible because they discovered the lost parts in the dead sea. In the modern day people have also wondered..." Etc. etc.
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 01, 2020, 04:53:01 PM
I have heard arguments like this one. They do sound more ego-driven than most. Obviously the woman agreed with my decision to write the papers the way I did, answering her question. But like I said, had I written the paper that way and been flunked, I would have insisted she tell me which data and conclusions I had written could have been omitted, and have the paper been successfully written. I would expect no less from my students, but then again I do not give them max pp limits.
On how many grant panels, hiring committees, boards, or other positions that must make decisions based on written material have you served?
People who can't/won't/don't follow instructions on strict word limits and other formatting instructions are weeded immediately. It's not for our egos that the limits exist; it's a practical matter of time and energy. Our job is to make a decision. People who can't sort out important from unimportant lose every time.
To make a decision, I don't have to know everything you know on a topic. Instead, for decisions that matter, we make a first pass looking for the top three important items. We can then follow up with the top five people to learn more.
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 01, 2020, 04:53:01 PM
I have heard arguments like this one. They do sound more ego-driven than most. Obviously the woman agreed with my decision to write the papers the way I did, answering her question. But like I said, had I written the paper that way and been flunked, I would have insisted she tell me which data and conclusions I had written could have been omitted, and have the paper been successfully written. I would expect no less from my students, but then again I do not give them max pp limits.
Oh, I don't think you would have flunked. You'd probably have hit most of the key items on the rubric, but lacked a conclusion. That's easy enough for you to figure out for yourself. It's rather arrogant of you to insist that the instructor would have to tell you what you would need to omit (I'd file that under "nope, not my job"). That burden is on you as the writer.
But I'm sure that was in the distant past and none of us will have you as a student.
I stand by my original advice that following directions is an excellent skill.
Quote from: AvidReader on September 01, 2020, 02:25:18 PM
I had a professor in graduate school who assigned huge topics (e.g. "describe the role of religion in this week's medieval text") with a hard 2 or 3 page limit. Those were the most difficult papers I've ever written, and I received some of the best feedback I've ever gotten. I think of that every time I apply for a grant or fellowship with a short page limit or word count. Great training for real life.
And I also would have stopped grading after page 5.
AR.
I had one of these, too, and I agree: it was the best education I received at any point during my years and years as a student.
I post target lengths for all my Comp I and II and lit class essay assignments. They get a 10% over/under cushion; if the paper is under or over that cushion, it earns 50% and doesn't get read. They know it going in, and we spend a good deal of time discussing the rationale (i.e., concise use of language; clear focus; narrowing the topic to the space available). Good and necessary life and career skills--as is reading and following instructions.
Since I was substantially brighter and more academically prepared for this class than the overwhelming majority of the students, the assignment really was not written with me in mind. IIRC, the assignment was a paragraph-long list of questions that had to be answered. I remember looking at it then and asking myself how to do all this, and maintain a max of 5pp. I was right. IOW, the assignment itself was a Catch-22-- it could not be correctly completed in the max paper length assigned. Intellectually I was faced with a choice, and made the right one, if the point of the paper was actually to learn the questions asked.
It would certainly have been within my rights, further, as a student, had I received a poor grade owing to the length of the paper, to ask the professor what could have been legitimately omitted. That would be her job, what she would have been being paid to tell me. Which of course is one of the sorts of reasons I do not give stupid page maxes on assignments I give.
The issue of properly formatting job app materials, presenting prospectuses according to set specs, etc, is different. Really it is.
Yeah, I've had a lot of students who insisted that everything they said was so essential that they couldn't have left anything out. Their opinion on this was different from mine.
Then of course you would have to tell them why they are wrong. You are the teacher. You have to do your job, which you are being paid for. Even if you think you have better things to do.
Quote from: AmLitHist on September 02, 2020, 10:56:09 AM
Quote from: AvidReader on September 01, 2020, 02:25:18 PM
I had a professor in graduate school who assigned huge topics (e.g. "describe the role of religion in this week's medieval text") with a hard 2 or 3 page limit. Those were the most difficult papers I've ever written, and I received some of the best feedback I've ever gotten. I think of that every time I apply for a grant or fellowship with a short page limit or word count. Great training for real life.
And I also would have stopped grading after page 5.
AR.
I had one of these, too, and I agree: it was the best education I received at any point during my years and years as a student.
I post target lengths for all my Comp I and II and lit class essay assignments. They get a 10% over/under cushion; if the paper is under or over that cushion, it earns 50% and doesn't get read. They know it going in, and we spend a good deal of time discussing the rationale (i.e., concise use of language; clear focus; narrowing the topic to the space available). Good and necessary life and career skills--as is reading and following instructions.
Huh--so what you're saying is that a student is guaranteed half credit of they paste in lorem ipsum to a length outside the +/- 10% cushion target. That won't work if it's all they do, but it's one way to ease stress of finals week if you have a grade cushion that can absorb a 50% on the last paper.
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 03, 2020, 01:35:03 AM
Then of course you would have to tell them why they are wrong. You are the teacher. You have to do your job, which you are being paid for. Even if you think you have better things to do.
If a student has written overly long, convoluted sentences with unnecessary detail, my job is to point out the first example or two and give comments. I'm not going to re-write it for them.
Or if they were asked to provide "3-4 relevant, current examples" and they provided 12, I'd tell them to narrow it down to the most illustrative/controversial/etc. I'm not going to pick for them.
This is a case for "read and apply the rubric". Or "see the assignment instructions".
Quote from: ergative on September 03, 2020, 01:36:36 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on September 02, 2020, 10:56:09 AM
Quote from: AvidReader on September 01, 2020, 02:25:18 PM
I had a professor in graduate school who assigned huge topics (e.g. "describe the role of religion in this week's medieval text") with a hard 2 or 3 page limit. Those were the most difficult papers I've ever written, and I received some of the best feedback I've ever gotten. I think of that every time I apply for a grant or fellowship with a short page limit or word count. Great training for real life.
And I also would have stopped grading after page 5.
AR.
I had one of these, too, and I agree: it was the best education I received at any point during my years and years as a student.
I post target lengths for all my Comp I and II and lit class essay assignments. They get a 10% over/under cushion; if the paper is under or over that cushion, it earns 50% and doesn't get read. They know it going in, and we spend a good deal of time discussing the rationale (i.e., concise use of language; clear focus; narrowing the topic to the space available). Good and necessary life and career skills--as is reading and following instructions.
Huh--so what you're saying is that a student is guaranteed half credit of they paste in lorem ipsum to a length outside the +/- 10% cushion target. That won't work if it's all they do, but it's one way to ease stress of finals week if you have a grade cushion that can absorb a 50% on the last paper.
No, if I get the right length of lorem ipsum, it earns a zero, because it doesn't address the assignment.
Quote from: AmLitHist on September 03, 2020, 11:52:13 AM
Quote from: ergative on September 03, 2020, 01:36:36 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on September 02, 2020, 10:56:09 AM
Quote from: AvidReader on September 01, 2020, 02:25:18 PM
I had a professor in graduate school who assigned huge topics (e.g. "describe the role of religion in this week's medieval text") with a hard 2 or 3 page limit. Those were the most difficult papers I've ever written, and I received some of the best feedback I've ever gotten. I think of that every time I apply for a grant or fellowship with a short page limit or word count. Great training for real life.
And I also would have stopped grading after page 5.
AR.
I had one of these, too, and I agree: it was the best education I received at any point during my years and years as a student.
I post target lengths for all my Comp I and II and lit class essay assignments. They get a 10% over/under cushion; if the paper is under or over that cushion, it earns 50% and doesn't get read. They know it going in, and we spend a good deal of time discussing the rationale (i.e., concise use of language; clear focus; narrowing the topic to the space available). Good and necessary life and career skills--as is reading and following instructions.
Huh--so what you're saying is that a student is guaranteed half credit of they paste in lorem ipsum to a length outside the +/- 10% cushion target. That won't work if it's all they do, but it's one way to ease stress of finals week if you have a grade cushion that can absorb a 50% on the last paper.
No, if I get the right length of lorem ipsum, it earns a zero, because it doesn't address the assignment.
Ahh, so you
do read it, you sneaky prof, you!
Quote from: ergative on September 11, 2020, 05:19:16 AM
Ahh, so you do read it, you sneaky prof, you!
Dang, you caught me! :-)
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 02, 2020, 12:34:58 PM
The issue of properly formatting job app materials, presenting prospectuses according to set specs, etc, is different. Really it is.
It's not. The fact that you think it is explains a lot about your career.
Student email #1: Good evening [Fishprof First Name Last Name] this is [Student] I am a second year here at [Fishprof U] a resident I was wondering, I wanted to add an extra class in my schedule because right now I am taking two. I know that I am past the deadline but I was thinking about [Basketweaving] 266 OL because [Basketweaving] is my major. I have emailed both academic success and my teacher and they have told me to ask you about it.
My response #1: [Student]
[Basketweaving] 266 is not a class for [Basketweaving] majors.
Student email #2: Is that so can you explain I thought of taking it because it counted for some credits and it didn't require a prerequisite the other other [Basketweaving] classes were full unfortunately what can I do?
My response #2: You can't take it. As the add deadline has passed, you can't take anything else, either. Unless you take a night course. THAT deadline to add is the 15th.
Fishprof
What I want to say: We've been in classes for two weeks now. You are living ON CAMPUS. Where have you been? (Residents have to be FT so now I wonder how THAT has happened, too)
Quote from: FishProf on September 13, 2020, 10:37:55 AM
(Residents have to be FT so now I wonder how THAT has happened, too)
My bet is someone dropped a course without checking all the rules and is now scrambling after an authority pointed out that residents must be full time.
Quote from: polly_mer on September 13, 2020, 06:16:00 PM
Quote from: FishProf on September 13, 2020, 10:37:55 AM
(Residents have to be FT so now I wonder how THAT has happened, too)
My bet is someone dropped a course without checking all the rules and is now scrambling after an authority pointed out that residents must be full time.
I strongly suspect you are correct. Today I will learn if my mask also protects me from students crying in my office.
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 04, 2019, 09:50:42 PM
I would not give a pass to a freshman, even a first generation one, who asked if a textbook was needed. Virtually all classes they would have had in hs, other than some non academic ones, would have required a text, so why would they assume college classes would somehow be textless? I would mot be rude in response but would certainly make it crystal clear they had to have all required texts for college success.
Nope. When I was in high school plenty of my classes had absolutely no textbooks. We had textbooks for mathematics classes and novels to read for English and French but otherwise textbooks (provided by the school, not paid for out-of-pocket) were hit or miss. Some classes had them, plenty of others didn't.
And, many schools have the textbooks only in the classroom. They never leave because the schools does not have enough of them. So students only ever interact with the book during class time.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on September 15, 2020, 11:20:57 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 04, 2019, 09:50:42 PM
I would not give a pass to a freshman, even a first generation one, who asked if a textbook was needed. Virtually all classes they would have had in hs, other than some non academic ones, would have required a text, so why would they assume college classes would somehow be textless? I would mot be rude in response but would certainly make it crystal clear they had to have all required texts for college success.
Nope. When I was in high school plenty of my classes had absolutely no textbooks. We had textbooks for mathematics classes and novels to read for English and French but otherwise textbooks (provided by the school, not paid for out-of-pocket) were hit or miss. Some classes had them, plenty of others didn't.
To add to this, I know many professors who are choosing to use articles and videos for assigned materials. Either printing them out for the students in class or posting them in LMS. Some just prefer the customization it allows them and others don't want the students to have to buy expensive textbooks.
Student posting publicly on piazza 4 hours before the homework deadline:
"About question 3 of the homework, is X the correct answer?"
My response: "Thank you for the question. Unfortunately, we cannot provide feedback on whether a certain answer is correct before the deadline. Thank you for your understanding."
Asked a senior, well-accomplished colleague what he would reply if he were in my shoes. His answer: "I would not reply at all".
So, now I am wondering what this student will say about me when the time of evaluations come: the student cannot say I did not answer their questions, since I did. But they can say "research_prof did not make me feel appreciated" or "research_prof was so dismissive when I asked a simple question".
Thoughts?
Your job is to create an environment in which the student has the opportunity to learn if they so choose.
In every class there will be a student or two who complain about you, no matter how well you do. Your chair and the Dean know that. Keep good records, and hope you never have to provide them.
Quote from: San Joaquin on September 24, 2020, 07:16:02 PM
Your job is to create an environment in which the student has the opportunity to learn if they so choose.
In every class there will be a student or two who complain about you, no matter how well you do. Your chair and the Dean know that. Keep good records, and hope you never have to provide them.
My question really is: is there a better way to handle kindergarten level questions like this one? I cannot believe that a 20+ year old person does not understand that this is an inappropriate question to ask and I cannot believe that they sincerely expect a response to such a question.
So, one solution would be to not respond at all. The other solution was what I did. Any better solutions?
Quote from: research_prof on September 24, 2020, 06:03:36 PM
Student posting publicly on piazza 4 hours before the homework deadline:
"About question 3 of the homework, is X the correct answer?"
My standard reply is "I don't pre-grade assignments. Submit what you think is the best answer, and if it is wrong, THEN we can work to correct your understanding".
I often have to use a variant of this DURING exams.
Quote from: research_prof on September 24, 2020, 06:03:36 PM
Student posting publicly on piazza 4 hours before the homework deadline:
"About question 3 of the homework, is X the correct answer?"
My response: "Thank you for the question. Unfortunately, we cannot provide feedback on whether a certain answer is correct before the deadline. Thank you for your understanding."
Asked a senior, well-accomplished colleague what he would reply if he were in my shoes. His answer: "I would not reply at all".
So, now I am wondering what this student will say about me when the time of evaluations come: the student cannot say I did not answer their questions, since I did. But they can say "research_prof did not make me feel appreciated" or "research_prof was so dismissive when I asked a simple question".
Thoughts?
I assume you are grading the homework for accuracy instead of just completion? If so, yeah, that's the right response.
Quote from: Caracal on September 25, 2020, 05:06:58 AM
Quote from: research_prof on September 24, 2020, 06:03:36 PM
Student posting publicly on piazza 4 hours before the homework deadline:
"About question 3 of the homework, is X the correct answer?"
My response: "Thank you for the question. Unfortunately, we cannot provide feedback on whether a certain answer is correct before the deadline. Thank you for your understanding."
Asked a senior, well-accomplished colleague what he would reply if he were in my shoes. His answer: "I would not reply at all".
So, now I am wondering what this student will say about me when the time of evaluations come: the student cannot say I did not answer their questions, since I did. But they can say "research_prof did not make me feel appreciated" or "research_prof was so dismissive when I asked a simple question".
Thoughts?
I assume you are grading the homework for accuracy instead of just completion? If so, yeah, that's the right response.
Yes, for this question there is a single correct answer which is what the student believes. But obviously I could not say that because I would have compromised the integrity of the homework and it would have been unfair to more than half of the students that had submitted already.
Do you guys seriously believe that someone 20+ years old would legitimately think that asking such a question is ok and would expect to receive an answer? I am trying to understand if my junior-year undergraduate students legitimately behave like kindergarten students or they are just messing with me...
Quote from: research_prof on September 25, 2020, 05:50:07 AM
Do you guys seriously believe that someone 20+ years old would legitimately think that asking such a question is ok and would expect to receive an answer?
Absolutely believe it. Have directly experienced it.
Whether they
SHOULD think that is entirely different. There is no doubt than many of them
DO believe it.
Quote from: FishProf on September 25, 2020, 06:17:09 AM
Quote from: research_prof on September 25, 2020, 05:50:07 AM
Do you guys seriously believe that someone 20+ years old would legitimately think that asking such a question is ok and would expect to receive an answer?
Absolutely believe it. Have directly experienced it.
Whether they SHOULD think that is entirely different. There is no doubt than many of them DO believe it.
Indeed. There are students who not only think that education
feels like hoop-jumping, but that it
is hoop-jumping. In other words, most students realize that even though they don't always understand the purpose of a requirement, there probably is one. However, this group of students assumes that any requirement that has
no purpose they can see in fact
has no purpose. (Or, the purpose really is just to put the "right" answer in the "right" box. Mindlessly following instructions is the required "cost" of a piece of paper that is the "ticket" to employment. )
Quote from: FishProf on September 25, 2020, 06:17:09 AM
Quote from: research_prof on September 25, 2020, 05:50:07 AM
Do you guys seriously believe that someone 20+ years old would legitimately think that asking such a question is ok and would expect to receive an answer?
Absolutely believe it. Have directly experienced it.
Whether they SHOULD think that is entirely different. There is no doubt than many of them DO believe it.
Welcome to the wide world of teaching! Like you, I used to be shocked when students straight up asked for answers (on homework, quizzes, exams, etc.). Or when student got upset when they were graded for correctness and not just get full credit for any sort of attempt.
Just be consistent and fair.
If one student says "Dr. Research-Prof was SO MEAN and wouldn't answer my questions about the homework", just shrug it off.
Quote from: the_geneticist on September 25, 2020, 09:16:07 AM
Welcome to the wide world of teaching! Like you, I used to be shocked when students straight up asked for answers (on homework, quizzes, exams, etc.). Or when student got upset when they were graded for correctness and not just get full credit for any sort of attempt.
Just be consistent and fair.
If one student says "Dr. Research-Prof was SO MEAN and wouldn't answer my questions about the homework", just shrug it off.
Reminds me of when, as a TA, the student complained to the professor that hw was graded for accuracy as well as completion (half points on each).
"The other times I took
this class, it was only graded on completion!"
Quote from: the_geneticist on September 25, 2020, 09:16:07 AM
Quote from: FishProf on September 25, 2020, 06:17:09 AM
Quote from: research_prof on September 25, 2020, 05:50:07 AM
Do you guys seriously believe that someone 20+ years old would legitimately think that asking such a question is ok and would expect to receive an answer?
Absolutely believe it. Have directly experienced it.
Whether they SHOULD think that is entirely different. There is no doubt than many of them DO believe it.
Welcome to the wide world of teaching! Like you, I used to be shocked when students straight up asked for answers (on homework, quizzes, exams, etc.). Or when student got upset when they were graded for correctness and not just get full credit for any sort of attempt.
Just be consistent and fair.
If one student says "Dr. Research-Prof was SO MEAN and wouldn't answer my questions about the homework", just shrug it off.
Often with questions like this, you are better off pretending that the issue isn't really about grades and writing something like "Just complete the problem and answer in the homework and then if you have any additional questions about it, just come to Zoom office hours and we can go over it there."
Student email: "Turnitin won't let me submit my homework. I would like for you to fix it on your end so that I can submit it."
My reply: "Turnitin won't let you submit because it's after the deadline. You've had since Monday to complete this homework, so no late work is accepted. As stated on the syllabus and assignments sheet, you shouldn't wait until the last minute as technical issues aren't an excuse for late work."
Student's reply: "It wasn't late when I submitted it. Anyway it's my birthday and I'm at a dinner in my honor so let me know when you fix the problem with Turnitin. I do not deserved to be penalized."
I will not be responding to that.
Quote from: RatGuy on September 26, 2020, 06:52:25 AM
Student's reply: "It wasn't late when I submitted it. Anyway it's my birthday and I'm at a dinner in my honor so let me know when you fix the problem with Turnitin. I do not deserved to be penalized."
Is the birthday excuse a thing? Because I've also received the birthday excuse recently.
Quote from: RatGuy on September 26, 2020, 06:52:25 AM
Student email: "Turnitin won't let me submit my homework. I would like for you to fix it on your end so that I can submit it."
My reply: "Turnitin won't let you submit because it's after the deadline. You've had since Monday to complete this homework, so no late work is accepted. As stated on the syllabus and assignments sheet, you shouldn't wait until the last minute as technical issues aren't an excuse for late work."
Student's reply: "It wasn't late when I submitted it. Anyway it's my birthday and I'm at a dinner in my honor so let me know when you fix the problem with Turnitin. I do not deserved to be penalized."
I will not be responding to that.
Wow, what a pleasure that student must be to spend time with.
Here's mine.
Student, it isn't really smart to tell me you haven't done work because you still don't have the the course book (because you can't "find" it) a month into the course. And giving that as an excuse for why you are asking me to let you do assignments that have passed is a bold move, but it didn't lead to success in this case. I hope you will withdraw from the class. Your chances of passing are slim.
Quote from: Cheerful on September 26, 2020, 07:33:29 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on September 26, 2020, 06:52:25 AM
Student's reply: "It wasn't late when I submitted it. Anyway it's my birthday and I'm at a dinner in my honor so let me know when you fix the problem with Turnitin. I do not deserved to be penalized."
Is the birthday excuse a thing? Because I've also received the birthday excuse recently.
I've only had 3 student say "I'm going somewhere for my birthday" as an excuse for failing to submit work, but all three of them are Finance majors from New Jersey. So I don't know if it's a fraternity thing, a major thing, or a geography thing (or, taken together, a class thing). I will say that the kid who didn't show up for a midterm because "he was spending his 21st birthday in Vegas" appealed the zero, and I was required to let him make it up.
We have a faculty member in our department who used to cancel class on his birthday. He did until our most recent chair got wind of it. So YES, many people believe that your birthday should be a personal holiday that everyone should honor.
Quote from: RatGuy on September 26, 2020, 07:39:36 AM
Quote from: Cheerful on September 26, 2020, 07:33:29 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on September 26, 2020, 06:52:25 AM
Student's reply: "It wasn't late when I submitted it. Anyway it's my birthday and I'm at a dinner in my honor so let me know when you fix the problem with Turnitin. I do not deserved to be penalized."
Is the birthday excuse a thing? Because I've also received the birthday excuse recently.
I've only had 3 student say "I'm going somewhere for my birthday" as an excuse for failing to submit work, but all three of them are Finance majors from New Jersey. So I don't know if it's a fraternity thing, a major thing, or a geography thing (or, taken together, a class thing). I will say that the kid who didn't show up for a midterm because "he was spending his 21st birthday in Vegas" appealed the zero, and I was required to let him make it up.
Wait, what? Someone in your administration thought this was a good excuse? What did his appeal possibly say? I couldn't take a midterm because I was playing drunk and playing blackjack? Were you at least allowed to create the make-up from hell, or did you have the give him the standard one?
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 26, 2020, 08:49:55 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on September 26, 2020, 07:39:36 AM
Quote from: Cheerful on September 26, 2020, 07:33:29 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on September 26, 2020, 06:52:25 AM
Student's reply: "It wasn't late when I submitted it. Anyway it's my birthday and I'm at a dinner in my honor so let me know when you fix the problem with Turnitin. I do not deserved to be penalized."
Is the birthday excuse a thing? Because I've also received the birthday excuse recently.
I've only had 3 student say "I'm going somewhere for my birthday" as an excuse for failing to submit work, but all three of them are Finance majors from New Jersey. So I don't know if it's a fraternity thing, a major thing, or a geography thing (or, taken together, a class thing). I will say that the kid who didn't show up for a midterm because "he was spending his 21st birthday in Vegas" appealed the zero, and I was required to let him make it up.
Wait, what? Someone in your administration thought this was a good excuse? What did his appeal possibly say? I couldn't take a midterm because I was playing drunk and playing blackjack? Were you at least allowed to create the make-up from hell, or did you have the give him the standard one?
If this were a stats class, it would be diabolical to make it about probabilities of various hands, given the nature of the excuse.........
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 26, 2020, 08:49:55 AM
Wait, what? Someone in your administration thought this was a good excuse? What did his appeal possibly say? I couldn't take a midterm because I was playing drunk and playing blackjack? Were you at least allowed to create the make-up from hell, or did you have the give him the standard one?
I know the student (and his girlfriend, also with a Vegas-related zero) went to the Director of Undergraduate Studies for that department, who told them that a birthday was not a school-sanctioned excuse. They must have gone to someone outside the department, who responded to the DUS who responded to me. I was able to give them an "alternate exam" that was mostly tough essay questions. The power couple eventually stopped attending class.
Not surprised on the birthday thing...
I've had this one a few times in online classes:
Student message sent at 11:59pm on assignment due date: I wasn't sure what you meant in the directions on assignment x. Can you clarify and I'll submit tomorrow or the following day after?
Response: Hello, I'm sorry you find the instructions unclear. This class has been attended by over x00 students in my time a Great U. Interpretation 1 is correct. You can certainly submit work after the due date for partial credit, although you should be aware of my instruction in the syllabus that indicates assignment due dates are when the work must be completed and submitted. It is your job to understand the work and seek any elaboration or clarification on the first day the assignment is given for the week. You may ask any question you like at any time, but uncertainties just before due dates will not be grounds for extensions.
Quote from: mythbuster on September 26, 2020, 08:27:32 AM
We have a faculty member in our department who used to cancel class on his birthday. He did until our most recent chair got wind of it. So YES, many people believe that your birthday should be a personal holiday that everyone should honor.
And here I've repeatedly had to get up before five a.m. on my birthday to drive three hours to a must-attend annual state professional workshop that falls on the same day every few years.
One of those lessons in the-world-does-not-revolve-around-you that students (and others) need to learn at some point.
Covid-era emails...
A few days before the first major exam.
Stu Dent: "Can you send me all of the class recordings from the beginning of the semester?"
Quote from: Aster on September 30, 2020, 05:45:52 AM
Covid-era emails...
A few days before the first major exam.
Stu Dent: "Can you send me all of the class recordings from the beginning of the semester?"
Edit them all into one ginormous, continuous file that is umpteen hours long.
"As requested"
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 30, 2020, 05:50:33 AM
Quote from: Aster on September 30, 2020, 05:45:52 AM
Covid-era emails...
A few days before the first major exam.
Stu Dent: "Can you send me all of the class recordings from the beginning of the semester?"
Edit them all into one ginormous, continuous file that is umpteen hours long.
"As requested"
Sorted by Title, not order.
In .wav format
Quote from: FishProf on September 30, 2020, 06:00:15 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 30, 2020, 05:50:33 AM
Quote from: Aster on September 30, 2020, 05:45:52 AM
Covid-era emails...
A few days before the first major exam.
Stu Dent: "Can you send me all of the class recordings from the beginning of the semester?"
Edit them all into one ginormous, continuous file that is umpteen hours long.
"As requested"
Sorted by Title, not order.
In .wav format
You ARE evil.
I stand in awe.
Heh. I don't need to do anything special. But I couldn't email the student more than 1 file anyway... each single class recording is about 140 megabytes. It takes a few minutes for *me* to even upload each one temporarily onto the CMS. The student is requesting nearly a gigabyte worth of data.
Quote from: Aster on September 30, 2020, 06:24:51 AM
Heh. I don't need to do anything special. But I couldn't email the student more than 1 file anyway... each single class recording is about 140 megabytes. It takes a few minutes for *me* to even upload each one temporarily onto the CMS. The student is requesting nearly a gigabyte worth of data.
You could adapt FishProf's idea. Burn them to a couple of CD-ROMs (Sorted by title. In .wav format)
Send them
by post, like in the early days of Netflix.
How many days was it until the exam?
Meanwhile only yesterday we had a patron come to us wanting a welding textbook her son needs for his course at the local vo-tech school. He's apparently just now trying to get it. It costs well over a hundred dollars, so I can understand his desire to find a lower-cost alternative to buying his own copy.
We've had nursing students printing PDFs of various manuals here at our library.
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 30, 2020, 06:34:25 AM
Quote from: Aster on September 30, 2020, 06:24:51 AM
Heh. I don't need to do anything special. But I couldn't email the student more than 1 file anyway... each single class recording is about 140 megabytes. It takes a few minutes for *me* to even upload each one temporarily onto the CMS. The student is requesting nearly a gigabyte worth of data.
You could adapt FishProf's idea. Burn them to a couple of CD-ROMs (Sorted by title. In .wav format)
Send them by post, like in the early days of Netflix.
How many days was it until the exam?
Two. Ha.
Quote from: Aster on September 30, 2020, 07:22:19 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 30, 2020, 06:34:25 AM
Quote from: Aster on September 30, 2020, 06:24:51 AM
Heh. I don't need to do anything special. But I couldn't email the student more than 1 file anyway... each single class recording is about 140 megabytes. It takes a few minutes for *me* to even upload each one temporarily onto the CMS. The student is requesting nearly a gigabyte worth of data.
You could adapt FishProf's idea. Burn them to a couple of CD-ROMs (Sorted by title. In .wav format)
Send them by post, like in the early days of Netflix.
How many days was it until the exam?
Two. Ha.
Perfect.
Quote from: Aster on September 30, 2020, 05:45:52 AM
Covid-era emails...
A few days before the first major exam.
Stu Dent: "Can you send me all of the class recordings from the beginning of the semester?"
I'd email them the link to the class website. "Here you go!"
Quote from: apl68 on September 30, 2020, 06:47:05 AM
Meanwhile only yesterday we had a patron come to us wanting a welding textbook her son needs for his course at the local vo-tech school. He's apparently just now trying to get it. It costs well over a hundred dollars, so I can understand his desire to find a lower-cost alternative to buying his own copy.
We've had nursing students printing PDFs of various manuals here at our library.
Isn't is his
mom who is trying to get it?
I get that these books can be expensive, but doesn't anyone tell them they need the books, and that's part of the expense of college? I send out messages to some classes before the semester saying they will need the book, and I lack sympathy for students who then lead themselves to failure because they mess up a bunch of assignments due to not having the book, thus wasting a lot more money than the cost of the book.
6:55 p.m.:
Dear Dr. Reader,
Here is a screenshot of [this week's assignment].
[enormous image follows].
Stu
7:25 p.m.:
Dear Dr. Reader,
I am deeply sorry, for I did not throughly read the directions. Please disregard my last email.
Sincere apologies,
Stu
Email from a student who was furious that some of hu's classmates earned Bs in the course.
Hi professor
I'm curious as to how I got I C I did all my assignments always participated in class I only absent once during the semester .But I must say thank you very much I've never been so stressed in my life over the pass weeks but again thank you
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 09, 2020, 06:52:23 PM
Email from a student who was furious that some of hu's classmates earned Bs in the course.
Hi professor
I'm curious as to how I got I C I did all my assignments always participated in class I only absent once during the semester .But I must say thank you very much I've never been so stressed in my life over the pass weeks but again thank you
This is a classic example of literary
bomb throwing. Immature, petty, and cowardly. The best thing to do with one of these is to immediately hit the delete button, as they are beneath responding to and not intended to be responded to.
Agree with the "bomb throwing". It felt like an attack, especially as I helped the student throughout the semester.
I saved this email to remind myself that no good deed goes unpunished. The email from Student was in response to my email explaining why Stu earned a C. Stu was failing the course, so I allowed hu to revise some of the submissions in hu's portfolio over the break and resubmit. Stu was probably around mid-thirty age-wise.
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 09, 2020, 06:52:23 PM
Email from a student who was furious that some of hu's classmates earned Bs in the course.
Hi professor
I'm curious as to how I got I C I did all my assignments always participated in class I only absent once during the semester .But I must say thank you very much I've never been so stressed in my life over the pass weeks but again thank you
It's also a case of "Course grades have been submitted to the registrar. Enjoy your Fall/weekend/etc."
"professor i was wondering how i goa 0 on the video quiz grade because i remember doing it"
What Quiz? Where?
We had a very late start to our Fall. Got this one today:
QuoteGood morning, I had emailed my counselor regarding the waitlist situation that [Dr. Geneticist] has told me that's going on with your class. I understand that the class is full, but there is one week left before enrollment officially closes, and it's urgent that I stay on the waitlist and at least enroll this quarter. I'm scheduled to graduate this fall and this class with the lab is the only one that can fulfill the requirement. I hope you can understand my situation. My counselor will also contact you to see if there can be a resolution.
Please let me know soon, thank you.
Wants to Graduate
Followed quickly by this one:
QuoteI've already talked to my counselor, and he's willing to see if we can work something out in this situation. I still want to try for enrollment.
This was AFTER I'd already emailed the student to say the class was full.
Dear Wants to Graduate,
As stated in my previous emails, Basketweaving 101 is completely full. There are no seats available. You will have to talk with your advisor about how to fulfill your graduation requirements.
Dr. Geneticist
What I wanted to say is "The class is full. Stop asking. Also, Dr. Geneticist is ME! Who did you think has been emailing you?!"
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 12, 2020, 01:42:44 PM
....I'm scheduled to graduate this fall...
Please let me know soon, thank you.
Wants to Graduate
I'm scheduled to win the lottery this Friday.
Quote from: Cheerful on October 12, 2020, 02:27:41 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 12, 2020, 01:42:44 PM
....I'm scheduled to graduate this fall...
Please let me know soon, thank you.
Wants to Graduate
I'm scheduled to win the lottery this Friday.
Drat! And here I was planning on being the lottery winner!
The kicker? The student ISN'T even on the waitlist.
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 09, 2020, 06:52:23 PM
Email from a student who was furious that some of hu's classmates earned Bs in the course.
Hi professor
I'm curious as to how I got I C I did all my assignments always participated in class I only absent once during the semester .But I must say thank you very much I've never been so stressed in my life over the pass weeks but again thank you
Hey, I got something way worse than that as an anonymous, official course evaluation review last semester. The student was attacking me personally because "I stressed him out too much during the semester". I believe I know who this student was and it is sad because this student got an A+ after a lot of help from me. Indeed, no good deed goes unpunished.
I wish I could just tell all these complainers: Please do not take my class or take another section of it that is taught by someone else!
Quote from: research_prof on October 12, 2020, 02:55:05 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 09, 2020, 06:52:23 PM
Email from a student who was furious that some of hu's classmates earned Bs in the course.
Hi professor
I'm curious as to how I got I C I did all my assignments always participated in class I only absent once during the semester .But I must say thank you very much I've never been so stressed in my life over the pass weeks but again thank you
Hey, I got something way worse than that as an anonymous, official course evaluation review last semester. The student was attacking me personally because "I stressed him out too much during the semester". I believe I know who this student was and it is sad because this student got an A+ after a lot of help from me. Indeed, no good deed goes unpunished.
I wish I could just tell all these complainers: Please do not take my class or take another section of it that is taught by someone else!
If you aren't tenured, keep that one for your tenure file. Seriously. That's gold.
Sure, you want some of the "transformational teacher" / "changed my life" comments, but something about how
hard your classes are high are your standards is worth including.
Is anyone else seeing a lot of the phrase "the state of the world" in requests from students?
I keep seeing things like:
"Due to the state of the world I would like to ask for an extension."
Or
"I would like to switch from letter grades to pass/fail due to the effect the state of the world has had on me."
I don't know if their emails are vague to maintain their own privacy or if they want me to fill in the blanks with my imagination. They don't have to give an excuse at all. They were given a list of criteria to be granted these things and having a valid personal reason for the request is not one of them.
I'm not surprised students are referring to the pandemic to explain the need for some consideration, I was just struck by how many people used the same exact wording.
I am seeing some of that from my students as well. I'd express my sympathy and redirect them.
Dear student,
Thank you for your email. I'm sorry to hear that you are having trouble. Please refer to the syllabus for the policy on [extensions, late work, absences, etc].
Best,
Dr. [yourname]
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 14, 2020, 01:51:43 PM
Is anyone else seeing a lot of the phrase "the state of the world" in requests from students?
I keep seeing things like:
"Due to the state of the world I would like to ask for an extension."
Or
"I would like to switch from letter grades to pass/fail due to the effect the state of the world has had on me."
I don't know if their emails are vague to maintain their own privacy or if they want me to fill in the blanks with my imagination. They don't have to give an excuse at all. They were given a list of criteria to be granted these things and having a valid personal reason for the request is not one of them.
I'm not surprised students are referring to the pandemic to explain the need for some consideration, I was just struck by how many people used the same exact wording.
Not just from students. Colleagues and administrators, too.
I am seeing that too. But I view it partially as a reaction to the fact that it's all just a bit much. It's not just the pandemic at this point. It's also economic effects, political terror, activism, racial issues etc. "The state of the world" is like the email equivalent of waving your hand around and saying "you know, all this". And the students who do give me details just make me sad about what they are going through with the changes to their education, loss of jobs, illnesses, increases in substance abuse, street harassment and (waves vaguely around) all this.
Some colleagues and I have a virtual jar where we drop in a dollar every time we use specific words like "unprecedented". We are going to have such a happy hour when this is all over.
"Because of the coronavirus pandemic" prefaces multiple statements on all of my course syllabi and all of my LMS materials.
Quote from: dr_codex on October 14, 2020, 02:10:40 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 14, 2020, 01:51:43 PM
Is anyone else seeing a lot of the phrase "the state of the world" in requests from students?
I keep seeing things like:
"Due to the state of the world I would like to ask for an extension."
Or
"I would like to switch from letter grades to pass/fail due to the effect the state of the world has had on me."
I don't know if their emails are vague to maintain their own privacy or if they want me to fill in the blanks with my imagination. They don't have to give an excuse at all. They were given a list of criteria to be granted these things and having a valid personal reason for the request is not one of them.
I'm not surprised students are referring to the pandemic to explain the need for some consideration, I was just struck by how many people used the same exact wording.
Not just from students. Colleagues and administrators, too.
Sounds like a good candidate for the "Trendy Words I Do Not Like" thread.
I have a student who had a good reason for missing the last quiz. I don't allow make-ups, but I do drop the two lowest quiz grades to allow for situations such as that . He wrote a panicked note asking for a make-up, and I had to deny his request, pointing to the published course policy document. Then I also pointed out that since he hadn't missed any work so far, the zero on the quiz would not count. He wrote back with, "You're the very best, Prof. Cathwen! Thank you!" All I was doing was applying the policy as I would to any student, but it still made me smile.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 12, 2020, 01:42:44 PM
We had a very late start to our Fall. Got this one today:
QuoteGood morning, I had emailed my counselor regarding the waitlist situation that [Dr. Geneticist] has told me that's going on with your class. I understand that the class is full, but there is one week left before enrollment officially closes, and it's urgent that I stay on the waitlist and at least enroll this quarter. I'm scheduled to graduate this fall and this class with the lab is the only one that can fulfill the requirement. I hope you can understand my situation. My counselor will also contact you to see if there can be a resolution.
Please let me know soon, thank you.
Wants to Graduate
Followed quickly by this one:
QuoteI've already talked to my counselor, and he's willing to see if we can work something out in this situation. I still want to try for enrollment.
This was AFTER I'd already emailed the student to say the class was full.
Dear Wants to Graduate,
As stated in my previous emails, Basketweaving 101 is completely full. There are no seats available. You will have to talk with your advisor about how to fulfill your graduation requirements.
Dr. Geneticist
What I wanted to say is "The class is full. Stop asking. Also, Dr. Geneticist is ME! Who did you think has been emailing you?!"
I always wondered how it was that someone got to be a graduating senior without taking a required intro course and then after all those chances, it was somehow my fault for that required course already being full.
Were there not a minimum of 7 other chances to take this required course?
Are not seniors allowed to register first to ensure they get the courses they need?
Why were these folks always writing to be on a wait list the first or second week of classes instead of making their case the day registration opened and they found themselves locked out, which is usually at least a month, before classes start?
All those questions can be addressed by "failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part". I was much more sympathetic to getting aced out every term and being a senior who contacted me immediately on the first day of registration upon again being locked out. I believe that happened twice and we made it work because we had literal months to get it sorted out.
Polly the situation that you describe was common at the large land grant university where I did m graduate training. The enrollment cap for the Bio 1 was entirely dictated by the number of weekly discussion sections that could be held in the two classrooms designated for that purpose. This is primarily an inter-department politics issue.
As a result, we had wait-lists of 50+ every quarter for a lecture of 350. What ended up happening is that students found ways to get waived into the next course in the sequence. This often happened by convincing the advisor to put through the override based on earning a 4 on the AP exam or some such. Then the student can get the courses they need for their major, as most of the other courses had enrollment limits set appropriately to demand. So they forget about skipping the intro until they apply to graduate and have an outstanding course requirement of Bio 1! So I had many senior bio majors in Bio 1, which of course further exacerbated the issue of Freshpeeps not being able to get in. It also did horrible things to the grade distribution in Bio 1.
Right before I departed, they built a new building and more rooms were designated for Bio 1 discussion sections. Hopefully, it has helped to resolve the issue.
Quote from: mythbuster on October 15, 2020, 08:03:01 AM
Polly the situation that you describe was common at the large land grant university where I did m graduate training. The enrollment cap for the Bio 1 was entirely dictated by the number of weekly discussion sections that could be held in the two classrooms designated for that purpose. This is primarily an inter-department politics issue.
As a result, we had wait-lists of 50+ every quarter for a lecture of 350. What ended up happening is that students found ways to get waived into the next course in the sequence.
In this case Bio 1 was a "pseudo-prerequisite". If people have a reasonable change at passing the next course in the sequence without it, it's not really a valid prerequisite.
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 15, 2020, 08:25:47 AM
In this case Bio 1 was a "pseudo-prerequisite". If people have a reasonable change at passing the next course in the sequence without it, it's not really a valid prerequisite.
That doesn't necessarily follow. If someone who got a 4 an the AP Bio can muddle through, that doesn't mean BIO 1 wasn't a real prerequisite. It just means it isn't the only way to meet satisfy the function of the prerequisite.
Am I the only one who would prefer students don't start out with "I hope you are well" or some other pleasantry? I know that I'm an irritable grouch, so it is probably just me.
Quote from: FishProf on October 15, 2020, 08:49:03 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 15, 2020, 08:25:47 AM
In this case Bio 1 was a "pseudo-prerequisite". If people have a reasonable change at passing the next course in the sequence without it, it's not really a valid prerequisite.
That doesn't necessarily follow. If someone who got a 4 an the AP Bio can muddle through, that doesn't mean BIO 1 wasn't a real prerequisite. It just means it isn't the only way to meet satisfy the function of the prerequisite.
But in that case, if there is a reasonably common situation, (such as that), which results in the course being "waived", it should be treated like some sort of transfer instead. There's no logical reason to say "You don't need to take the prerequisite in order to do the next course in the sequence, but you need to take it for our hoop-jumping."
Quote from: polly_mer on October 15, 2020, 07:36:00 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 12, 2020, 01:42:44 PM
We had a very late start to our Fall. Got this one today:
QuoteGood morning, I had emailed my counselor regarding the waitlist situation that [Dr. Geneticist] has told me that's going on with your class. I understand that the class is full, but there is one week left before enrollment officially closes, and it's urgent that I stay on the waitlist and at least enroll this quarter. I'm scheduled to graduate this fall and this class with the lab is the only one that can fulfill the requirement. I hope you can understand my situation. My counselor will also contact you to see if there can be a resolution.
Please let me know soon, thank you.
Wants to Graduate
Followed quickly by this one:
QuoteI've already talked to my counselor, and he's willing to see if we can work something out in this situation. I still want to try for enrollment.
This was AFTER I'd already emailed the student to say the class was full.
Dear Wants to Graduate,
As stated in my previous emails, Basketweaving 101 is completely full. There are no seats available. You will have to talk with your advisor about how to fulfill your graduation requirements.
Dr. Geneticist
What I wanted to say is "The class is full. Stop asking. Also, Dr. Geneticist is ME! Who did you think has been emailing you?!"
I always wondered how it was that someone got to be a graduating senior without taking a required intro course and then after all those chances, it was somehow my fault for that required course already being full.
Were there not a minimum of 7 other chances to take this required course?
Are not seniors allowed to register first to ensure they get the courses they need?
Why were these folks always writing to be on a wait list the first or second week of classes instead of making their case the day registration opened and they found themselves locked out, which is usually at least a month, before classes start?
All those questions can be addressed by "failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part". I was much more sympathetic to getting aced out every term and being a senior who contacted me immediately on the first day of registration upon again being locked out. I believe that happened twice and we made it work because we had literal months to get it sorted out.
The kicker is that we are on the quarter system so they have at least 12 chances to register for a required class, even more if you count summers. And this class is offered 2X a year and every summer. And yes, seniors get to register first!
I'm so glad that my current job does not including advising students with registration issues! I always hated the "you need to take X to graduate. Why didn't you take it as planned last term?" conversations. Or "You still need to get credit for X. I know you took the class. But you need to pass the class to get credit. Taking the class and failing doesn't count."
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 15, 2020, 08:58:09 AM
Quote from: FishProf on October 15, 2020, 08:49:03 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 15, 2020, 08:25:47 AM
In this case Bio 1 was a "pseudo-prerequisite". If people have a reasonable change at passing the next course in the sequence without it, it's not really a valid prerequisite.
That doesn't necessarily follow. If someone who got a 4 an the AP Bio can muddle through, that doesn't mean BIO 1 wasn't a real prerequisite. It just means it isn't the only way to meet satisfy the function of the prerequisite.
But in that case, if there is a reasonably common situation, (such as that), which results in the course being "waived", it should be treated like some sort of transfer instead. There's no logical reason to say "You don't need to take the prerequisite in order to do the next course in the sequence, but you need to take it for our hoop-jumping."
Perhaps (although this is a bit of moving the goalposts). There may still be a credit issue for the major.
Remember the 5 P's: 'proper preparation prevents poor performances.'
I love Jock Talk.
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 15, 2020, 07:00:03 PM
Remember the 5 P's: 'proper preparation prevents poor performances.'
I love Jock Talk.
I learned it as the 7 P's.
proper proactive preparation prevents piss-poor performances.'
From student:
"I recently started a new job and they scheduled me to work on [day/time of exam and Stu requests an alternate day/time]...I really want to start this job off on the right foot."
Why is starting a new job on the right foot important, but not this class?
Quote from: Anon1787 on October 17, 2020, 05:05:00 PM
From student:
"I recently started a new job and they scheduled me to work on [day/time of exam and Stu requests an alternate day/time]...I really want to start this job off on the right foot."
Why is starting a new job on the right foot important, but not this class?
Because the student needs an income? They just need to pass your class.
The following would be appropriate for more than one thread.
An assignment was due by midnight on Friday. Students had two weeks to complete the assignment.
Student 1 emails the document as an attachment at 12:25 AM on Saturday, apologizing profusely, acknowledging awareness of course policies, but requesting that I send the document to Student's partners so that they can peer-review the assignment. This, despite repeated announcements to refer to the syllabus that clearly states that emailed assignments won't be opened or graded, and that assignments can only be uploaded by the student. Student has a tendency to procrastinate--stu's first assignment was a blank document.
Student 2 emails me at 8:32 PM, alerting me to a power outage in hu's residence. In the second email at 11:35 PM, Student wants "a tiny extension", because hu wants the assignment to be "right this time" as the previous assignment was "poorly done". In the third email, sent at 12:10 AM, Student writes "I'm sorry to keep messaging you, but I finished it in time but it wouldn't let me upload the essay." According to Canvas, Student tried to upload the essay at 12.11 AM.
There are many things I want to say to these students, but don't know where to begin.
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 18, 2020, 06:59:08 AM
The following would be appropriate for more than one thread.
An assignment was due by midnight on Friday. Students had two weeks to complete the assignment.
Student 1 emails the document as an attachment at 12:25 AM on Saturday, apologizing profusely, acknowledging awareness of course policies, but requesting that I send the document to Student's partners so that they can peer-review the assignment. This, despite repeated announcements to refer to the syllabus that clearly states that emailed assignments won't be opened or graded, and that assignments can only be uploaded by the student. Student has a tendency to procrastinate--stu's first assignment was a blank document.
Student 2 emails me at 8:32 PM, alerting me to a power outage in hu's residence. In the second email at 11:35 PM, Student wants "a tiny extension", because hu wants the assignment to be "right this time" as the previous assignment was "poorly done". In the third email, sent at 12:10 AM, Student writes "I'm sorry to keep messaging you, but I finished it in time but it wouldn't let me upload the essay." According to Canvas, Student tried to upload the essay at 12.11 AM.
There are many things I want to say to these students, but don't know where to begin.
Sometimes I reply by emailing screen shots from Canvas that document their lies.
Quote from: downer on October 18, 2020, 05:12:13 AM
Because the student needs an income? They just need to pass your class.
It is up to the student to decide which things to prioritize; just don't get off on the wrong foot with me by expecting me to change my course policy to accommodate their different priorities.
Quote from: Anon1787 on October 18, 2020, 01:05:31 PM
Quote from: downer on October 18, 2020, 05:12:13 AM
Because the student needs an income? They just need to pass your class.
It is up to the student to decide which things to prioritize; just don't get off on the wrong foot with me by expecting me to change my course policy to accommodate their different priorities.
As I sometimes advise to students who are working too much, research has shown that you'll probably do better by taking out college loans than by trying to work your way through college.
Quote from: Aster on October 19, 2020, 10:24:25 AM
Quote from: Anon1787 on October 18, 2020, 01:05:31 PM
Quote from: downer on October 18, 2020, 05:12:13 AM
Because the student needs an income? They just need to pass your class.
It is up to the student to decide which things to prioritize; just don't get off on the wrong foot with me by expecting me to change my course policy to accommodate their different priorities.
As I sometimes advise to students who are working too much, research has shown that you'll probably do better by taking out college loans than by trying to work your way through college.
Many of my students have maxed out their student loans and other financial assistance.
Some are the ONLY source of income for their household (e.g. parents are unemployed and not eligible for unemployment).
I have students that have to decide whether they get to eat that day or put enough gas in the car to not risk running out.
I'd give them an alternate exam time. At least they asked in advance.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 19, 2020, 10:30:14 AM
Quote from: Aster on October 19, 2020, 10:24:25 AM
Quote from: Anon1787 on October 18, 2020, 01:05:31 PM
Quote from: downer on October 18, 2020, 05:12:13 AM
Because the student needs an income? They just need to pass your class.
It is up to the student to decide which things to prioritize; just don't get off on the wrong foot with me by expecting me to change my course policy to accommodate their different priorities.
As I sometimes advise to students who are working too much, research has shown that you'll probably do better by taking out college loans than by trying to work your way through college.
Many of my students have maxed out their student loans and other financial assistance.
Some are the ONLY source of income for their household (e.g. parents are unemployed and not eligible for unemployment).
I have students that have to decide whether they get to eat that day or put enough gas in the car to not risk running out.
Yeah, that sucks. Many of us see these situations all the time now. The U.S. Higher Education system is certainly not what it used to be in terms of per-student funding support. And I've had to have quite a few painful advising sessions with students over the years explaining what the requirements are for successfully completing college. Sometimes hard choices have to be made with one's time commitments.
Got this one late on Friday:
QuoteHello!
I'm in lab section [123] for [Basketweaving 101] and I was just wondering if there was any way to gain points back from the lab by fixing the things I lost points on?
Thank you,
Hopeful Student
Who wants to guess their current grade?
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 19, 2020, 10:54:35 AM
Got this one late on Friday:
QuoteHello!
I'm in lab section [123] for [Basketweaving 101] and I was just wondering if there was any way to gain points back from the lab by fixing the things I lost points on?
Thank you,
Hopeful Student
Who wants to guess their current grade?
Ha, I don't need to guess, I have enough "background research" to make a prediction.
F. Big Fat F.
Quote from: Aster on October 19, 2020, 11:18:16 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 19, 2020, 10:54:35 AM
Got this one late on Friday:
QuoteHello!
I'm in lab section [123] for [Basketweaving 101] and I was just wondering if there was any way to gain points back from the lab by fixing the things I lost points on?
Thank you,
Hopeful Student
Who wants to guess their current grade?
Ha, I don't need to guess, I have enough "background research" to make a prediction.
F. Big Fat F.
Actually they have an
A. As in, they have missed 1.5 of the possible 100+ points
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 19, 2020, 11:22:52 AM
Quote from: Aster on October 19, 2020, 11:18:16 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 19, 2020, 10:54:35 AM
Got this one late on Friday:
QuoteHello!
I'm in lab section [123] for [Basketweaving 101] and I was just wondering if there was any way to gain points back from the lab by fixing the things I lost points on?
Thank you,
Hopeful Student
Who wants to guess their current grade?
Ha, I don't need to guess, I have enough "background research" to make a prediction.
F. Big Fat F.
Actually they have an A. As in, they have missed 1.5 of the possible 100+ points
Wow. I haven't had this particular scenario occur since at least 2016. I don't feel bad that my prediction has been demolished.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 19, 2020, 10:30:14 AM
Many of my students have maxed out their student loans and other financial assistance.
Some are the ONLY source of income for their household (e.g. parents are unemployed and not eligible for unemployment).
I have students that have to decide whether they get to eat that day or put enough gas in the car to not risk running out.
I'd give them an alternate exam time. At least they asked in advance.
That would open up a can of worms since work schedule would be a common reason cited for special accommodation if it were to become general course policy (which it should be as a matter of fairness to all students). If work is their overriding priority it is probably best to withdraw from the course.
Quote from: Anon1787 on October 19, 2020, 12:33:40 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 19, 2020, 10:30:14 AM
Many of my students have maxed out their student loans and other financial assistance.
Some are the ONLY source of income for their household (e.g. parents are unemployed and not eligible for unemployment).
I have students that have to decide whether they get to eat that day or put enough gas in the car to not risk running out.
I'd give them an alternate exam time. At least they asked in advance.
That would open up a can of worms since work schedule would be a common reason cited for special accommodation if it were to become general course policy (which it should be as a matter of fairness to all students). If work is their overriding priority it is probably best to withdraw from the course.
Or set up the exam to be available for X hours during a 24 hour time. That way everyone can choose when to take it during that time block.
Or if it's a final exam, offer to give them an Incomplete.
Cheating renders even a 24 hour time window impractical (there is no easy way of creating a large test bank of comparable questions). In my experience, the vast majority of students here do not finish an Incomplete (or do poorly because they forget most of the material by the time they get around to it), so it is usually better to withdraw, get a partial refund, and re-take the course.
I'm not sure what "there is no easy way of creating a large test bank of comparable questions" means. That's what I've done for all my classes. You also vary the order of the answers, and you don't have to make every single test completely different from every other. For instance, if the test has 20 questions, you can make up ~70 questions, or even 50, and add some more every year. Then set a timer for answering each question (I allow 90 seconds for a multiple-choice question). And don't let them see the correct answers until the test window has closed for everyone. The grades my students get suggest they are not finding it possible to cheat.
Quote from: Anon1787 on October 19, 2020, 04:24:32 PM
Cheating renders even a 24 hour time window impractical (there is no easy way of creating a large test bank of comparable questions). In my experience, the vast majority of students here do not finish an Incomplete (or do poorly because they forget most of the material by the time they get around to it), so it is usually better to withdraw, get a partial refund, and re-take the course.
You would rather a student lose money, retake a class, and get behind on their path to graduate than write a better exam?
I hope your student complains to your department chair.
Quote from: Aster on October 19, 2020, 11:58:51 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 19, 2020, 11:22:52 AM
Quote from: Aster on October 19, 2020, 11:18:16 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 19, 2020, 10:54:35 AM
Got this one late on Friday:
QuoteHello!
I'm in lab section [123] for [Basketweaving 101] and I was just wondering if there was any way to gain points back from the lab by fixing the things I lost points on?
Thank you,
Hopeful Student
Who wants to guess their current grade?
Ha, I don't need to guess, I have enough "background research" to make a prediction.
F. Big Fat F.
Actually they have an A. As in, they have missed 1.5 of the possible 100+ points
Wow. I haven't had this particular scenario occur since at least 2016. I don't feel bad that my prediction has been demolished.
I get this sort of thing quite frequently. I get to have lots of conversations about perfectionism with students who think a B+, or even A- is the end of the world as we know it. Actually a bit less of that recently, now that they have some perspective on actual world-altering events.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 20, 2020, 09:01:19 AM
You would rather a student lose money, retake a class, and get behind on their path to graduate than write a better exam?
I hope your student complains to your department chair.
I would rather students makes themselves available to complete their exams and other coursework as scheduled rather than expect instructors to craft individualized coursework to maximize convenience, which is not my department's policy (and I don't expect it to change except perhaps for an online version of the intro class that they may decide to offer regularly). More specifically, if a student takes a job whose work hours regularly conflict with a class that is not asynchronous it is my belief that it is the student who needs to make the necessary adjustment.
Quote from: Anon1787 on October 20, 2020, 02:39:22 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 20, 2020, 09:01:19 AM
You would rather a student lose money, retake a class, and get behind on their path to graduate than write a better exam?
I hope your student complains to your department chair.
I would rather students makes themselves available to complete their exams and other coursework as scheduled rather than expect instructors to craft individualized coursework to maximize convenience, which is not my department's policy (and I don't expect it to change except perhaps for an online version of the intro class that they may decide to offer regularly). More specifically, if a student takes a job whose work hours regularly conflict with a class that is not asynchronous it is my belief that it is the student who needs to make the necessary adjustment.
What would you do if the a didn't show up to the exam (regardless of the reason)? I assume you have a plan - weight their other exam higher? offer a retake? etc.
I'd hardly call a one-time request for an exam reschedule a "regular conflict".
You can only teach the students you have, not the students you wish you had.
Stu Dent: "Professor, I noticed that there's a Study Guide posted to the LMS, but it says that it's for a different course. Should I use that to study for the exam?"
Me: "Thank you for notifying me about this. I have identified the error and corrected it. You should no longer be able to access the study guide for a different course."
Stu Dent: "So can I still use that study guide from another course to study for our exam? I've been using it for days."
Me: "I am not sure how you can be completing the study guide from another course, as nothing on that study guide is taught in your course nor available to reference from course materials or the textbook."
This covid semester will be a landmark moment for most bizarre and nonsensical student behaviors...
Quote from: Aster on October 21, 2020, 05:37:21 AM
Stu Dent: "Professor, I noticed that there's a Study Guide posted to the LMS, but it says that it's for a different course. Should I use that to study for the exam?"
Me: "Thank you for notifying me about this. I have identified the error and corrected it. You should no longer be able to access the study guide for a different course."
Stu Dent: "So can I still use that study guide from another course to study for our exam? I've been using it for days."
Me: "I am not sure how you can be completing the study guide from another course, as nothing on that study guide is taught in your course nor available to reference from course materials or the textbook."
This covid semester will be a landmark moment for most bizarre and nonsensical student behaviors...
I am new to teaching but in my limited experience I have noticed that some students seem to view class material as being small pieces of information that they do not need to think about or connect to other material. I'm not sure they even notice if something is unrelated to the class because they are on autopilot, memorizing individual pieces of information, and not trying to see how it relates or if it relates to the overall picture.
I just had an email from a student asking about an assignment in which they are suppose to compare and contrast two readings from class. They wanted to know if they could use
the same reading for this assignment. Instead of using two readings, only use one reading. I'm not quite sure what the thought process behind this request might have been.
Quote from: Charlotte on October 21, 2020, 06:13:06 AM
I just had an email from a student asking about an assignment in which they are suppose to compare and contrast two readings from class. They wanted to know if they could use the same reading for this assignment. Instead of using two readings, only use one reading. I'm not quite sure what the thought process behind this request might have been.
That's where I would be tempted to give my favorite one word reply email: No.
But if you are new to teaching, you may have more invested in treating it as a teachable moment.
Quote from: downer on October 21, 2020, 06:17:26 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on October 21, 2020, 06:13:06 AM
I just had an email from a student asking about an assignment in which they are suppose to compare and contrast two readings from class. They wanted to know if they could use the same reading for this assignment. Instead of using two readings, only use one reading. I'm not quite sure what the thought process behind this request might have been.
That's where I would be tempted to give my favorite one word reply email: No.
But if you are new to teaching, you may have more invested in treating it as a teachable moment.
Yeah, something that conveys the basic fact that the words "compare" and "contrast" require at least two objects to be compared and contrasted, you can't perform those functions with just one object.
Minus the snark, of course...
M.
Quote from: downer on October 21, 2020, 06:17:26 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on October 21, 2020, 06:13:06 AM
I just had an email from a student asking about an assignment in which they are suppose to compare and contrast two readings from class. They wanted to know if they could use the same reading for this assignment. Instead of using two readings, only use one reading. I'm not quite sure what the thought process behind this request might have been.
That's where I would be tempted to give my favorite one word reply email: No.
But if you are new to teaching, you may have more invested in treating it as a teachable moment.
If students are having that much trouble doing any sort of joined-up thinking, it sounds like they need a lot of those teachable moments.
Quote from: Puget on October 20, 2020, 10:17:05 AM
Quote from: Aster on October 19, 2020, 11:58:51 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 19, 2020, 11:22:52 AM
Quote from: Aster on October 19, 2020, 11:18:16 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 19, 2020, 10:54:35 AM
Got this one late on Friday:
QuoteHello!
I'm in lab section [123] for [Basketweaving 101] and I was just wondering if there was any way to gain points back from the lab by fixing the things I lost points on?
Thank you,
Hopeful Student
Who wants to guess their current grade?
Ha, I don't need to guess, I have enough "background research" to make a prediction.
F. Big Fat F.
Actually they have an A. As in, they have missed 1.5 of the possible 100+ points
Wow. I haven't had this particular scenario occur since at least 2016. I don't feel bad that my prediction has been demolished.
I get this sort of thing quite frequently. I get to have lots of conversations about perfectionism with students who think a B+, or even A- is the end of the world as we know it. Actually a bit less of that recently, now that they have some perspective on actual world-altering events.
I get this all the time from students who are aiming for the nursing program. The problem, as I always remind them, is that they have failed to read the syllabus which explains that there are no makeups.
Quote from: apl68 on October 21, 2020, 06:35:40 AM
Quote from: downer on October 21, 2020, 06:17:26 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on October 21, 2020, 06:13:06 AM
I just had an email from a student asking about an assignment in which they are suppose to compare and contrast two readings from class. They wanted to know if they could use the same reading for this assignment. Instead of using two readings, only use one reading. I'm not quite sure what the thought process behind this request might have been.
That's where I would be tempted to give my favorite one word reply email: No.
But if you are new to teaching, you may have more invested in treating it as a teachable moment.
If students are having that much trouble doing any sort of joined-up thinking, it sounds like they need a lot of those teachable moments.
Maybe.
Actually I am getting to the point where I refuse to answer questions about the course or about assignments by email.
I have open discussions on the LMS where students can post questions about the course and questions about assignments. I tell students to put their questions there.
This may have the effect of reducing the number of dumb questions, because students don't want to appear dumb in front of their peers.
It also means that I have more motivation to provide helpful answers to questions, since the whole class has the capacity to learn from the exchange.
In my experience, the few "A"- level performers in my courses have memorized the syllabus. They know exactly what the grading policies are, down to the decimal points. But they may ask for flexibility anyway. I get so very few "A" level students nowadays at my current open-enrollment institution that I'm starting to forget that I hardly ever see those communications anymore, but it used to be much more common when I worked at the R2 and R1 level.
I purchased a "It's on the Syllabus" t-shirt today. It's supposed to arrive on Sunday.
Quote from: Charlotte on October 21, 2020, 06:13:06 AM
I just had an email from a student asking about an assignment in which they are suppose to compare and contrast two readings from class. They wanted to know if they could use the same reading for this assignment. Instead of using two readings, only use one reading. I'm not quite sure what the thought process behind this request might have been.
"But, like, why would readings say DIFFERENT things???? Shouldn't they all say the same thing???? How would you know what was
right?"
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 21, 2020, 07:52:58 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on October 21, 2020, 06:13:06 AM
I just had an email from a student asking about an assignment in which they are suppose to compare and contrast two readings from class. They wanted to know if they could use the same reading for this assignment. Instead of using two readings, only use one reading. I'm not quite sure what the thought process behind this request might have been.
"But, like, why would readings say DIFFERENT things???? Shouldn't they all say the same thing???? How would you know what was right?"
Bwahaha! You made me snort my tea out my nose!!
"But why would they write something that is WRONG?!?!?"
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 21, 2020, 08:55:14 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 21, 2020, 07:52:58 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on October 21, 2020, 06:13:06 AM
I just had an email from a student asking about an assignment in which they are suppose to compare and contrast two readings from class. They wanted to know if they could use the same reading for this assignment. Instead of using two readings, only use one reading. I'm not quite sure what the thought process behind this request might have been.
"But, like, why would readings say DIFFERENT things???? Shouldn't they all say the same thing???? How would you know what was right?"
Bwahaha! You made me snort my tea out my nose!!
"But why would they write something that is WRONG?!?!?"
More teachable moments. Well it
is supposed to be a school, after all.
Who knew that getting an education required learning so much stuff?
Good morning professor,
I'll be in class today but I'd like to ask if you cannot call on me today because my girlfriend just broke up with me and I just don't feel like talking at all. Thank you.
Quote from: dr_codex on October 21, 2020, 01:21:28 PM
Good morning professor,
I'll be in class today but I'd like to ask if you cannot call on me today because my girlfriend just broke up with me and I just don't feel like talking at all. Thank you.
That melts my heart.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 20, 2020, 04:25:17 PM
You can only teach the students you have, not the students you wish you had.
The overwhelming majority of students I have (many of them have work and other obligations) manage to arrange their schedules so that they can be present at the scheduled class meetings for class activities. Allowing work schedule as an excuse would open up the floodgates for special accommodation requests.
Quote from: Charlotte on October 21, 2020, 06:13:06 AM
I just had an email from a student asking about an assignment in which they are suppose to compare and contrast two readings from class. They wanted to know if they could use the same reading for this assignment. Instead of using two readings, only use one reading. I'm not quite sure what the thought process behind this request might have been.
Are you by any chance reading both Cervantes' and Pierre Menard's
Don Quixote?
Quote from: Anon1787 on October 21, 2020, 02:16:54 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 20, 2020, 04:25:17 PM
You can only teach the students you have, not the students you wish you had.
The overwhelming majority of students I have (many of them have work and other obligations) manage to arrange their schedules so that they can be present at the scheduled class meetings for class activities. Allowing work schedule as an excuse would open up the floodgates for special accommodation requests.
Stuff like this is why I have policies that never result in some dire result if a student misses one class, or one test. Obviously, work can't be an excuse for missing class, but stuff happens.
Quote from: traductio on October 21, 2020, 07:42:03 PM
Quote from: Charlotte on October 21, 2020, 06:13:06 AM
I just had an email from a student asking about an assignment in which they are suppose to compare and contrast two readings from class. They wanted to know if they could use the same reading for this assignment. Instead of using two readings, only use one reading. I'm not quite sure what the thought process behind this request might have been.
Are you by any chance reading both Cervantes' and Pierre Menard's Don Quixote?
Now that would be an interesting thing to talk about in class! But no, these readings are mostly short poems.
Quote from: traductio on October 21, 2020, 07:42:03 PM
Quote from: Charlotte on October 21, 2020, 06:13:06 AM
I just had an email from a student asking about an assignment in which they are suppose to compare and contrast two readings from class. They wanted to know if they could use the same reading for this assignment. Instead of using two readings, only use one reading. I'm not quite sure what the thought process behind this request might have been.
Are you by any chance reading both Cervantes' and Pierre Menard's Don Quixote?
That's got to be better than reading Cervantes and watching that awful movie version of
Man of La Mancha.
Stu Dent? "Professor, this is in regard to the exam that everyone took. it is absolutely imperative that I make this up. Please let me know when you will drop it off at the testing facility."
This message came from personal email with no class ID identifier on it. There was no subject line either. I sent a terse response that this email was incomplete and to follow-up with a correctly written email, using the correct university email system. I expected a quick response back, but crickets.
Hours later, just for funs, I went through all of my class rosters to figure out who this person is and what class he was referring to. I checked all of my classes twice. This guy is not enrolled as a student with me...
And now I just completed a virus scan on my computer, just in case someone tried to hack me. Super.
Quote from: Aster on October 22, 2020, 01:24:49 PM
And now I just completed a virus scan on my computer, just in case someone tried to hack me. Super.
Honestly, this would be a lot more useful to hackers than the "dean needs a gift card" emails. I get this sort of email all the time and reply almost exactly as you did.
AR.
Apparently, I cannot take even a day off from student email. I received this gem today:
"hey professor, can you reply to my emails, so that I can finish my lab report!!! Please"
I guess, I'm holding this student back from doing the lab report? Maybe I should be disciplined somehow. BTW, the student sent me one email yesterday and then two more today.
I wonder why students don't realise that they sabotage themselves with repeated emails.
I received an unsolicited email recently from a potential PhD student. Normally I bin these straight away but this person actually looked quite interesting. I put it in my to be looked at in the next few days pile and moved on. Two days later I received a follow up, which I ignored. Three days after that I received a further follow up to which I responded that I didn't have any available opportunities. Simply because the person was being a pest.
OK, I see your point about students' being pests. That said, if the potential PhD student looked interesting enough to be potentially considered, why didn't you spend ten seconds to email him back on his first contact, telling him that you would be considering him further asap?
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 22, 2020, 11:21:35 PM
OK, I see your point about students' being pests. That said, if the potential PhD student looked interesting enough to be potentially considered, why didn't you spend ten seconds to email him back on his first contact, telling him that you would be considering him further asap?
That could
initiate exactly the kind of pestering we're talking about. "When will you read it?" "Have you read it?" etc.
Sure, it could, but it would also be polite and professional behavior.
(paraphrasing) "Dear Dr. Bio-nonymous,
On question number "x" on the exam I knew how to do the problem, but I divided by the wrong units and multiplied by an obscure extra factor that you mentioned in lecture but that had nothing to do with the problem. Can I get full credit for the problem?"
This is email 4 of 9 on the day asking for more points, arguing obscure minutia (always wrong) in the questions, and just general grade grubbing. She got a 94% on the exam.
UGGG!
This email, today, Saturday. Background: Assignment was a lab write-up dues last Wednesday. only 4 of 13 students managed to submit on-time in the correct place, with a proper name and formatting. On Thursday, I posted an announcment saying that i had graded the asignment and anyone who had a zero in the gradebook should confirm that they submitted it properly (name, place, format). This student sent me the assignment, correctly, last night at 8:30pm.
Hi Fishprof,
I noticed that I still got a 0 for the [basket handles] quiz [it isn't a guiz] and I was wondering if I could get some feedback on why, I can set up a virtual meeting during your office hours if that is easier, but I submitted it the right correct way, my name and the name of the lab was on both the document and the email I had sent you. If I received a 0 for the work I would like to know how to can improve my writing or if I just completely did not understand the directions, which I thought I did. I worked really hard on that lab and in this class in general and I am wondering if there is anything I can do to help my overall grade in this course.
thank you,
[Overly worried student]
My response: It is Saturday. I haven't graded it yet.
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 22, 2020, 11:21:35 PM
OK, I see your point about students' being pests. That said, if the potential PhD student looked interesting enough to be potentially considered, why didn't you spend ten seconds to email him back on his first contact, telling him that you would be considering him further asap?
Because my response would likely be no and I didn't want to provide false hope. In addition, I don't feel obligated to respond quickly to unsolicited emails from strangers external to my university.
Quote from: science.expat on October 24, 2020, 05:12:40 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 22, 2020, 11:21:35 PM
OK, I see your point about students' being pests. That said, if the potential PhD student looked interesting enough to be potentially considered, why didn't you spend ten seconds to email him back on his first contact, telling him that you would be considering him further asap?
Because my response would likely be no and I didn't want to provide false hope. In addition, I don't feel obligated to respond quickly to unsolicited emails from strangers external to my university.
If the student had waited say 2-4 weeks, instead of just a few days, before sending a single follow-up email, would you have found this more reasonable or still annoying?
Even a 'no' response, sent immediately and summarily, would have been more polite and professional than what you did. Sadly, the polite art of the rejection letter seems to be more or less a lost one. BTW, what is your policy for handling details wrt recruiting new grad students?
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 24, 2020, 11:31:33 PM
Even a 'no' response, sent immediately and summarily, would have been more polite and professional than what you did. Sadly, the polite art of the rejection letter seems to be more or less a lost one. BTW, what is your policy for handling details wrt recruiting new grad students?
I don't have a PhD. I don't have a research program. And yet I periodically gets emails from prospective grad students looking for "opportunities". Clearly, they aren't looking very carefully at who they target, since I'm not listed as full-time faculty, and I don't have a
single research publication, conference talk, etc. by which they would have found me.
I don't respond to those, becuase I am probably one of dozens (hundreds?) who probably got the same email, with my email mindlessly scraped from the department web page.
Quote from: science.expat on October 24, 2020, 05:12:40 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 22, 2020, 11:21:35 PM
OK, I see your point about students' being pests. That said, if the potential PhD student looked interesting enough to be potentially considered, why didn't you spend ten seconds to email him back on his first contact, telling him that you would be considering him further asap?
Because my response would likely be no and I didn't want to provide false hope. In addition, I don't feel obligated to respond quickly to unsolicited emails from strangers external to my university.
Probably this is a disciplinary thing, but wouldn't you just direct this person to apply? Individual faculty sometimes have a lot of discretion on who they admit in the humanities, but you still have to submit an application through the school. People sometimes contact faculty members at places they are applying or considering applying, but you wouldn't be asking the potential advisor to admit you outside of the normal application process.
Quote from: Caracal on October 25, 2020, 09:16:07 AM
Quote from: science.expat on October 24, 2020, 05:12:40 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 22, 2020, 11:21:35 PM
OK, I see your point about students' being pests. That said, if the potential PhD student looked interesting enough to be potentially considered, why didn't you spend ten seconds to email him back on his first contact, telling him that you would be considering him further asap?
Because my response would likely be no and I didn't want to provide false hope. In addition, I don't feel obligated to respond quickly to unsolicited emails from strangers external to my university.
Probably this is a disciplinary thing, but wouldn't you just direct this person to apply? Individual faculty sometimes have a lot of discretion on who they admit in the humanities, but you still have to submit an application through the school. People sometimes contact faculty members at places they are applying or considering applying, but you wouldn't be asking the potential advisor to admit you outside of the normal application process.
When I was looking to do a graduate degree in history in Britain, I remember the process was to look at a department's faculty listings and find one who was open to supervising PhDs in a particularly field, and write an application. I sent various emails of application materials, got a response from one professor, and enrolled in the PhD program the next fall. There really was not a "normal application process" and I cannot really remember if I actually applied to the school itself.
I get that a very quick follow up email is not a good idea. However, it would have been courteous to have sent an acknowledgment email, because otherwise the student has no idea if the original email has been received, was sent to the spam folder, got lost in the ether, etc.
I disagree with the sentiment that a professor does should not respond to an unsolicited email from outside his or her university. Of course, there is no legal or contractual obligation. And there are many emails I get (especially those trying to sell me something) that go to the bin. But if somebody writes to me because I am an expert in my field and they want some advice, me to look at a master's thesis, to speak at an event, do an interview, review an article, etc., I generally feel that I should at least respond, even if the answer is no.
Part of my job is to represent the school in a good light, generally speaking. If somebody wants to study at my faculty, it would probably be polite to at least write a short reply directing them where to apply, or to say that you are not taking graduate students at this time.
It's easier to find the time to respond to everyone when everyone is one to three emails per month. When I was at Super Dinky, I could indeed write a personalized email to everyone who sought my expertise because that was only the occasional email.
Now that I'm back into a significant research position as a woman in engineering, I have so many requests for my time and energy that I can't respond to everything immediately.
I continue to take note that the people who are the loudest about professional standards generally aren't those who are at the level to know what the professional realities are and are instead operating more from an idealized projection.
It is perhaps difficult to comprehend how someone who brags constantly about her own importance and brilliance cannot see the difference between a professor's need to respond to inquiries from potential students, vs. a senior business muckety-muck's need to respond to unsolicited job applications or requests for professional assistance. But being as I am a lowly flunky, I guess it is probably my problem.
Are they really prospective students who would be fabulous additions or are they aspiring students who are just more entries in the pool of possibly OK enough when we get desperate enough?
When one gets the emails regularly, it's pretty easy to determine the difference on a quick skim. Someone who would be a fabulous addition to the group is pretty rare and would be worth a response within a couple days. There would not need to be any indecision.
As someone who spends a ton of time trying to find good enough recruits, the problem is not that I'm far too important to be bothered. The problem is the very low signal-to-noise ratio in the unsolicited (and sometimes even solicited) materials. The pressure here, even without courses, is to get as many excellent students as possible (we pay for grad school while folks work here) in the pipeline.
People who haven't been in that position don't have the necessary perspective on the effort involved. One does not have to be a professor to be heavily involved in graduate education. The trends in my fields is to do much less coursework on campus and much more research so that folks get jobs based on experience. Future academic employment is pretty low on the prestige scale and there's some stigma in having a graduate experience background that is only on one academic campus, unless that campus is very elite.
I average 150 emails / day of which about 75% require my attention. On a good day I respond to all of these within a few hours but it can take a couple of days.
Of the remaining 25%, several per month are asking about PhD opportunities - often in the wrong field or with a generic salutation. These are ignored. Occasionally one is of interest and I respond with a link to the university's application process. I have yet to get a student from this route.
I do not agree with the assertion that it is unprofessional to not respond to every email I receive. Should I also respond to all physical mail I receive, or carefully consider the offers in every unsolicited phone call?
Regardless, a person who sends an unsolicited email and two follow ups within one week is a pest, and would likely be a nightmare to supervise.
As an example, for those who haven't been in the position of recruiting grad students and yet sighing heavily about what unsolicited materials look like:
Email A:
Dear esteemed professor Polly X. Mer,
I am seeking a position with your research group. I am an A student and have many letters of recommendation. Please allow me to work with you in the area of <current buzzword that the institution does indeed do, but I do not and we are inundated with students requesting to work on the most bleeding edge of the bleeding edge technology>
My LinkedIn page is <blah>.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Respectfully,
Not a Chance
Email B:
Dear Dr. Mer,
I am writing to you because I want to do more research in <something Polly recently published/presented>. Professor Name-Familiar-to-Polly suggested I write asking if I could join your research group.
<brief paragraph on undergraduate research in a related area that ends with "I presented a poster on this work at <Appropriate National/International Conference> and we have a paper in the process of being written.">
Even if you don't have a position right now, I ask for an hour of your time via phone so I can ask some questions regarding <recent work>.
Sincerely,
Excellent Prospect
Email C:
Dear Dr. Mer,
I am writing because I would like a position in your research group contributing to <area in which Polly has done work>. I read your recent paper in <outlet> and was sorry that the <National Conference> this year was cancelled because I wanted to speak with you in person after your planned talk on <related subject>.
<brief paragraph outlining overlapping research interests that ends with references to their 2-4 published papers and posters in this area>
I realize you are a very busy person and may not be looking for new students at this time. However, I had to give it a shot in case you have an opening in this area.
Sincerely,
Very Likely to Get a Call
Twenty years ago when I was applying to grad school in my fields, it was unusual for undergrad students to even have had a regional poster. At this point, someone who has zero undergraduate research experience is very unlikely to get anything because so many students have presentations and even peer-reviewed publications in the relevant outlets. First-year college students don't always have prior research experience, but anyone in my fields with a good shot at getting into a name-brand graduate program will have at least a couple summers of undergraduate research experience, if not their names on a couple of group papers.
Grad school in my fields have almost nothing to do with courses and practically everything to do with research. Not having done any technical research prior to applying indicates a lack of knowledge about the field and going to an institution that is not up on current best pedagogical practices. Not having done any background research on who does what to be able to write to an audience of one is a very bad sign indeed of how much time and energy I'll have to spend in mentoring in the basics.
Random points:
1) you are right that there have developed vast differences in the expectations of what a graduating senior ought to be able to show, in a grad school app, in order to be considered. This is certainly especially true in STEM, but sadly has made inroads in places where it is much less appropriate, such as my own field (most graduating undergrad classics majors, even from places like dear alma mater, simply do not know enough to have serious contributions to make in most realms of classical scholarship, given the widespread nature of what training classicists have to get).
2) interthreaduality here: wrt the 'other stuff' that non-old boy network kids, even those going to elite schools, largely DO NOT KNOW, would be the types of comments and 'reasons to write me back' stuff that Polly puts in her three sample letters. But surely she, and others like her who have already been in a position to have to answer such emails (or refuse to do so ) knows this, and knows that refusing to consider the application of a kid who does not know these things, but may well be a great candidate (and grad school is after all supposed to be *school*, not a place to go if one already knows everything there needs to be in a prospective field) is shortsighted, unwise, and unfair.
3) And in any case, spending oh, say, ten seconds, to send off a form email response to inquiries is just plain professional, and courteous. Even if one is a bigshot. Actually probably especially if one is a bigshot.
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 26, 2020, 05:22:56 PM
Random points:
3) And in any case, spending oh, say, ten seconds, to send off a form email response to inquiries is just plain professional, and courteous. Even if one is a bigshot. Actually probably especially if one is a bigshot.
But then they respond, sometimes over and over again.
But your initial form email can make it clear that you will not respond to additional emails sent prior to any follow-up emails sent by you. It really is very simple.
It seems to me that NOT replying to sincere emails about postgraduate study is both rude and self-defeating. To me, no response = a reason to try to follow up. The following responses, each of which took less than a minute to compose, both acknowledge receipt and indicate that future correspondence will not serve any purpose. If you do get follow-up emails, then you can just ignore them.
To be clear, I do not think people should answer every email they receive. That would be stupid. But I do think that being a professional does require replying to sincere emails when possible. Emails about conferences (especially in sunny places); journals (especially dodgy ones); exciting business opportunities; new textbooks; medications by mail; etc., do not need a reply. But there are also emails I do respond to that are in relation to my position as an expert in the field, or as a spokesman for the university, or as a professor, that I do reply to, even if it is just to say, thanks, no thanks.
Dear Prospective Student,
Thank you for your email regarding possible postgraduate study. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to accept new students at this time.
Sincerely,
Dear Prospective Student,
I have received your email about possible postgraduate study. I will contact you if you are a good fit for our current needs. Unfortunately, the large number of applicants does not allow a personal reply to those whom I cannot accept.
Sincerely,
Dear Prospective Student,
In regards to your recent email about possible postgraduate study, please be advised that all applications must be made through the office of graduate admissions (www.postgraduate.university.edu).
Your sincerely,
Quote from: jerseyjay on October 27, 2020, 05:07:22 AM
It seems to me that NOT replying to sincere emails about postgraduate study is both rude and self-defeating.
But Polly's example is a great illustration of the question about what constitutes "sincere".
Quote from: polly_mer on October 26, 2020, 06:35:06 AM
Dear esteemed professor Polly X. Mer,
I am seeking a position with your research group. I am an A student and have many letters of recommendation. Please allow me to work with you in the area of <current buzzword that the institution does indeed do, but I do not and we are inundated with students requesting to work on the most bleeding edge of the bleeding edge technology>
My LinkedIn page is <blah>.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Respectfully,
Not a Chance
The student has cleary made
no effort to determine whether the prof they are contacting even works in the area they are supposedly interested in.
If that counts as "sincere", then so do the calls I repeatedly get from carpet cleaners even after I've told them I have hardwood floors.
Well, yes, student A seems to have not done any homework. But Student B and Student C seem to have at least sought out Polly personally instead of picking a random name from the phone book.
My school does not offer graduate degrees in my field, so I suppose that it is easy to pontificate here. That said, what I do when I do receive repeated emails on the same subject is make a template in word and just copy and paste the response.
Doing homework I can understand, but, again, many potentially very excellent grad students will not have had any advising or instruction as to what to do in circumstances like this. Really, they won't have. Ignoring such emails because of classist presumptions is not only potentially self-defeating, but also sounds really rude. The sample reject letters and 'we will consider but will not be able to give further responses if negative' style letters are normative for private k12 schools, though of course they are less normative, actually by a goodly amount, than they used to be.
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 27, 2020, 07:59:57 PM
Doing homework I can understand, but, again, many potentially very excellent grad students will not have had any advising or instruction as to what to do in circumstances like this. Really, they won't have. Ignoring such emails because of classist presumptions is not only potentially self-defeating, but also sounds really rude.
What "classist presumptions"? I know a form letter when I get one, even it it starts with "Dear MARSHWIGGLE", or especially, as in this case, "Dear Dr. MARSHWIGGLE", since anyone who spent 2 minutes looking at my profile on the department website would see that I am NOT a "Dr."
The person is not saying "I'm desperate and I'm applying everywhere on the planet." The person is claiming to be
specifically interested in the research
of the person being addressed, which is patently untrue.
Yes, in the specific case you are talking about. But that was not the main issue of this point, which is what to do with generalized inquiry letters sent to grad school professors, that lacked the sort of decidedly non-first-generation college student knowledge base verbiage. IOW, classist.
I teach a graduate class. They are presenting on key topics with a partner in class this week.
Got this gem from a graduate student late last night:
Quote
Dear Dr. [misspelled name],
I hope you are well. Tomorrow I will not be able to attend the [Graduate Basketweaving Seminar] since I have to attend the second day of the [graduate symposium] from 9 to 12pm. The participation in the symposium is mandatory and I have to present a poster at 10am.
Please let me know if you need any information.
Thank you,
Grad Student
You bet I have questions! Like, when did you know about this conflict? Did you plan on saying anything to your presentation partner? Why did you wait until 11:30pm the night before to bring this up?
Sounds like some graduate student is going to learn the meaning of "professional courtesy" very quickly...
M.
Quote from: mamselle on October 29, 2020, 09:31:50 AM
Sounds like some graduate student is going to learn the meaning of "professional courtesy" very quickly...
M.
Oh, they already failed miserably at that by ignoring my previous emails at the start of Fall.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 29, 2020, 09:17:01 AM
I teach a graduate class. They are presenting on key topics with a partner in class this week.
Got this gem from a graduate student late last night:
Quote
Dear Dr. [misspelled name],
I hope you are well. Tomorrow I will not be able to attend the [Graduate Basketweaving Seminar] since I have to attend the second day of the [graduate symposium] from 9 to 12pm. The participation in the symposium is mandatory and I have to present a poster at 10am.
Please let me know if you need any information.
Thank you,
Grad Student
You bet I have questions! Like, when did you know about this conflict? Did you plan on saying anything to your presentation partner? Why did you wait until 11:30pm the night before to bring this up?
"Dear Stu,
Please give me the name of the organizer who waited until 11:30 p.m.the night before the conference to inform you of your need to be there and present. That was incredibly irresponsible of them and I'll need to bring this up with the Dean, since it is totally disrespectful to our class and your partner in particular who has been scheduled since <long ago date> to do the presentation with you tomorrow.
Dr. Genetecist"
Questions:
1) do you know exactly when this grad student was informed that his presence at this symposium was required of grad students in your dept?
2) why did the dept allow such a symposium to be scheduled at a time that grad seminars are being held? Or is this in a different dept?
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 29, 2020, 05:51:42 PM
Questions:
1) do you know exactly when this grad student was informed that his presence at this symposium was required of grad students in your dept?
2) why did the dept allow such a symposium to be scheduled at a time that grad seminars are being held? Or is this in a different dept?
1. No idea, but I'm 100% certain it wasn't at 11:30 pm the night before the symposium. Especially since they are presenting.
2. It's a different department and a HUGE university. We always have some overlap.
Got this one late Friday night:
Quote
Dear Ms./Mrs.[Geneticist],
Is it possible to receive an extension for the fifth lab worksheet? I have an exam for [other class] on [day after this class], and my lab Is on the [registered day and time]. I do not believe I will be able to finish the lab worksheet within the 24 hour period. I wish to have some time studying for the biochemistry midterm.
Sincerely,
Has No Idea How to Budget Their Time
Fantasy reply: No.
Actual reply:
Dear HNIHTBTT,
Thank you for your email. You always have the option to finish your worksheet during your scheduled lab section. Also, we do accept late work with a small penalty (see the syllabus for details). Since you've known about the lab due date and the midterm since the start of the quarter, it's your responsibility to decide how to best use your time. No, you may not have an extension for your lab worksheet. Thank you for asking.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
Given that this sort of overlap exists, what are the university's rules regarding whether dept x can require such outside of class meetings during regular class hours when student may well have a regularly scheduled class meeting for a class in dept y?
Campus is closed for Veterans' Day on Wednesday. To keep all of the labs in synch, I scheduled a week off from labs in all of my classes. It's in the syllabus, I sent an announcement, and the TAs send out emails to remind the students. But I guess that wasn't quite clear enough for everyone.
Got this one today:
QuoteHello Dr. [Geneticist], my name is [super anxious student] and I just wanted to make sure and confirm that there will be no lab or lab quiz this week? And if so, do we still need to attend lab regardless?
Thank you,
super anxious student
[facepalm]
Really?
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 10, 2020, 10:06:15 AM
Campus is closed for Veterans' Day on Wednesday. To keep all of the labs in synch, I scheduled a week off from labs in all of my classes. It's in the syllabus, I sent an announcement, and the TAs send out emails to remind the students. But I guess that wasn't quite clear enough for everyone.
Got this one today:
QuoteHello Dr. [Geneticist], my name is [super anxious student] and I just wanted to make sure and confirm that there will be no lab or lab quiz this week? And if so, do we still need to attend lab regardless?
Thank you,
super anxious student
[facepalm]
Really?
Yep. They need to read the syllabus and they never do.
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 28, 2020, 07:48:54 PM
Yes, in the specific case you are talking about. But that was not the main issue of this point, which is what to do with generalized inquiry letters sent to grad school professors, that lacked the sort of decidedly non-first-generation college student knowledge base verbiage. IOW, classist.
The place to teach the explicit skills needed is middle school and high school. College can then explicitly teach field norms.
Someone who is literally 10 years behind in socialization near the end of college is going to take an absurd amount of work, especially since I've never met someone that deficient in social norms who isn't also significantly deficient in the hard skills that one learns in college related to the field.
Yes, that's classicist. That's also reality underlining the need to remediate early instead of letting people just drift along and get further and further behind. The kid who was being mentored into professional norms starting in high school and then goes to a college that also explicitly mentors has a good shot. The kid who ends up applying to grad school as someone pitifully unqualified is not going to get into a graduate program that is worth attending.
You are not wrong about the deficits produced by sh*tty k12 education, largely in urban and rural areas. But that does not mean that colleges (not elite ones, but the bulk of them) could not and should not try to remediate these issues for students who are otherwise bright enough to go there, and would add to the fields they want to study. Social deficits, such as not knowing how to write a grad school professor, are also clearly and easily remediated.
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 10, 2020, 09:34:32 PM
You are not wrong about the deficits produced by sh*tty k12 education, largely in urban and rural areas. But that does not mean that colleges (not elite ones, but the bulk of them) could not and should not try to remediate these issues for students who are otherwise bright enough to go there, and would add to the fields they want to study. Social deficits, such as not knowing how to write a grad school professor, are also clearly and easily remediated.
Amen. I have worked at various open admissions institutions and as a colleague once said our students come farther in four years than any other set of students.
I get emails!
Subject: I will not be able to make class today
Hello professor Cebula,
I will not be able to attend your online lecture today. Fortunately for me, I killed an elk this morning and am doing my best to get done field dressing it before I head out of the woods. I am quite literally on top of a mountain right now in the hopes that I have enough service to send this message. Again, I am sorry for missing your class, I will watch the recording of the lecture tonight once I make it out.I get emails!
Subject: I will not be able to make class today
Hello professor Cebula,
I will not be able to attend your online lecture today. Fortunately for me, I killed an elk this morning and am doing my best to get done field dressing it before I head out of the woods. I am quite literally on top of a mountain right now in the hopes that I have enough service to send this message. Again, I am sorry for missing your class, I will watch the recording of the lecture tonight once I make it out.
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 10, 2020, 09:34:32 PM
You are not wrong about the deficits produced by sh*tty k12 education, largely in urban and rural areas. But that does not mean that colleges (not elite ones, but the bulk of them) could not and should not try to remediate these issues for students who are otherwise bright enough to go there, and would add to the fields they want to study. Social deficits, such as not knowing how to write a grad school professor, are also clearly and easily remediated.
I agree; I've seen it happen with lots of people.
I don't think science.expat had any obligation to send that student a reply. But I do agree that learning professional etiquette can and should be part of the undergrad experience.
The "explicit skills" a k-12 student might be expected to learn wouldn't necessarily prepare them for contacting professors as potential grad students. k-12 prep would teach things like the need to include a greeting, how to succinctly introduce yourself and your purpose for writing, how professional correspondence differs from casual in terms of diction, level of politeness, etc...
I wouldn't find it strange or evidence of a troublesome student if, once they get to college, they need to be informed further about when it is and isn't reasonable to expect a timely reply (or even any reply at all). It's not a *difficult* concept but it may not be obvious to someone relatively new to academia. So I don't see why a smart and serious student willing to pay attention and learn the etiquette should be considered too 'deficient' to be worth socializing if their k-12 education did not make them aware of just how many emails from how many various sources faculty receive and how low in the hierarchy of importance an unsolicited email from a *potential* (not even current) grad student would probably fall. I know my k-12 education didn't include this info.
And lots of young people *are* explicitly advised to do things like send follow-up messages (it shows real interest and initiative!) or make tons of cold-calls to up the odds of getting noticed (which leads to generic messages students don't realize come across as evidence of someone being too lazy to learn anything about the person they are contacting). They may have been told that's how things work in the "professional world". Until they enter that world themselves, how would they have known the advice was bad?
science.expat mentioned setting the student's initial inquiry aside to deal with later, so I assume there was nothing seriously amiss with the *content* of the email. It was specifically the two follow-ups in a short space of time that sank the student's chance of getting a response.
I wasn't totally clear from that post if it was *just* the short time between followups (indicating student expecting a fast response, unaware it's unreasonable to expect this for an unsolicited inquiry email) or that they also didn't take the hint when the first followup didn't get a response or the fact they sent a follow up at all.
science.expat, you did say you set the email aside to look at later. Suppose you weren't able to get around to it as soon as you planned, and student sends their first followup email a month after the initial inquiry. Would this still have been a red flag that this student might turn out to be a real pest, or would this length of time between the student's messages have made the followup more forgivable?
Quote from: larryc on November 10, 2020, 10:43:31 PM
I get emails!
Subject: I will not be able to make class today
Hello professor Cebula,
I will not be able to attend your online lecture today. Fortunately for me, I killed an elk this morning and am doing my best to get done field dressing it before I head out of the woods. I am quite literally on top of a mountain right now in the hopes that I have enough service to send this message. Again, I am sorry for missing your class, I will watch the recording of the lecture tonight once I make it out.I get emails!
Subject: I will not be able to make class today
Hello professor Cebula,
I will not be able to attend your online lecture today. Fortunately for me, I killed an elk this morning and am doing my best to get done field dressing it before I head out of the woods. I am quite literally on top of a mountain right now in the hopes that I have enough service to send this message. Again, I am sorry for missing your class, I will watch the recording of the lecture tonight once I make it out.
Not an email, but I once had a student tell me that he couldn't make it to the next class as he had a court date. I suspect he was looking for an excuse to cancel his court date as he was waiting for me to tell him that a court date was not a valid excuse for missing class. I told the student to get himself to court on the scheduled date/time and not to piss off the judge.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 10, 2020, 11:09:54 PM
science.expat, you did say you set the email aside to look at later. Suppose you weren't able to get around to it as soon as you planned, and student sends their first followup email a month after the initial inquiry. Would this still have been a red flag that this student might turn out to be a real pest, or would this length of time between the student's messages have made the followup more forgivable?
Had they sent a follow up a month later I would have seen it as a reminder, looked carefully at the original email, and sent a definitive reply.
SE
Quote from: polly_mer on November 10, 2020, 04:51:06 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 28, 2020, 07:48:54 PM
Yes, in the specific case you are talking about. But that was not the main issue of this point, which is what to do with generalized inquiry letters sent to grad school professors, that lacked the sort of decidedly non-first-generation college student knowledge base verbiage. IOW, classist.
The place to teach the explicit skills needed is middle school and high school. College can then explicitly teach field norms.
Someone who is literally 10 years behind in socialization near the end of college is going to take an absurd amount of work, especially since I've never met someone that deficient in social norms who isn't also significantly deficient in the hard skills that one learns in college related to the field.
Yes, that's classicist. That's also reality underlining the need to remediate early instead of letting people just drift along and get further and further behind. The kid who was being mentored into professional norms starting in high school and then goes to a college that also explicitly mentors has a good shot. The kid who ends up applying to grad school as someone pitifully unqualified is not going to get into a graduate program that is worth attending.
There seems to be an implicit argument that it is
obvious how you are supposed to email a professor in your field in your university in your country to signal interest in postgraduate studies. I have to say, I would have no idea of the correct way to do that--and I have a PhD and twenty years' teaching experience. My guess is that "professional norms" are different in the accounting department, the history department, and perhaps even across the hallway with one of your colleagues--much less at another university or another country.
I have worked or studied in different companies and different universities and different professions and different industries and different countries. Each has different norms of emailing: do you carbon copy everybody alive; do you write in a formal or informal style; do you address the recipient by first name or title; do you use second or third person; etc., etc. Within my current university, an email to the provost's office is likely to follow different norms than one to the physical plant or the bookstore.
One of the most important "professional norms" that I have learnt is flexibility in regard to these norms. This seems to be a "soft skill" that you have not learnt. Since you are clearly the one in a position of power here, it won't have any negative impact on you. However, should you find yourself in a different situation, it might make you look unprofessional.
At my school, students who are are found guilty of academic misconduct by the Dean's Office are not allowed to drop the class in which the misconduct occurred. A student whose only day of attendance was Aug 24 cheated blatantly on the take-home midterm. He was found guilty by the Dean, who told him not to drop my class. I always assumed that meant a hold on the account, but the student dropped the course anyway. The Dean's Office was alerted, and the Registrar's Office reenrolled the student.
Today's email: a frantic and melodramatic plea to let the student pass anyway. He claims that he's a 5-year senior graduating in December, with a marketing job lined up for January. He admits to the misconduct, and knows that he has a literal zero in the course. But he claims that he will write a final essay (due next Friday) that will "put all other essays to shame" and provide answers on the exam that are "so insightful and brilliant that they will bring you to tears." He contends that perfect scores on those two assignments should allow him to pass the course, even though his final grade will only be a 45%. He also says that if I deny him this opportunity, he promises not to take out his anger, and his parents' disappointment, and his future employer's lost productivity out on me. Finally he says, "and I believe in the Oxford comma."
This one is going in my HOF file.
Quote from: RatGuy on November 12, 2020, 01:02:49 PM
But he claims that he will write a final essay (due next Friday) that will "put all other essays to shame" and provide answers on the exam that are "so insightful and brilliant that they will bring you to tears."
Is this style of persuasion how he might have landed that marketing job? Or would this sound just as ridiculous in that field as in any other?
Quote from: RatGuy on November 12, 2020, 01:02:49 PM
He also says that if I deny him this opportunity, he promises not to take out his anger, and his parents' disappointment, and his future employer's lost productivity out on me.
Well, that's awfully decent of him. How can you refuse to allow someone with such an obvious heart of gold to pass your class?
Quote from: RatGuy on November 12, 2020, 01:02:49 PM
At my school, students who are are found guilty of academic misconduct by the Dean's Office are not allowed to drop the class in which the misconduct occurred. A student whose only day of attendance was Aug 24 cheated blatantly on the take-home midterm. He was found guilty by the Dean, who told him not to drop my class. I always assumed that meant a hold on the account, but the student dropped the course anyway. The Dean's Office was alerted, and the Registrar's Office reenrolled the student.
Today's email: a frantic and melodramatic plea to let the student pass anyway. He claims that he's a 5-year senior graduating in December, with a marketing job lined up for January. He admits to the misconduct, and knows that he has a literal zero in the course. But he claims that he will write a final essay (due next Friday) that will "put all other essays to shame" and provide answers on the exam that are "so insightful and brilliant that they will bring you to tears." He contends that perfect scores on those two assignments should allow him to pass the course, even though his final grade will only be a 45%. He also says that if I deny him this opportunity, he promises not to take out his anger, and his parents' disappointment, and his future employer's lost productivity out on me. Finally he says, "and I believe in the Oxford comma."
This one is going in my HOF file.
Wow. Just wow.
I'd kick that one up the chain of command.
Did he property use said Oxford Comma in his email?
Quote from: RatGuy on November 12, 2020, 01:02:49 PM
At my school, students who are are found guilty of academic misconduct by the Dean's Office are not allowed to drop the class in which the misconduct occurred. A student whose only day of attendance was Aug 24 cheated blatantly on the take-home midterm. He was found guilty by the Dean, who told him not to drop my class. I always assumed that meant a hold on the account, but the student dropped the course anyway. The Dean's Office was alerted, and the Registrar's Office reenrolled the student.
Today's email: a frantic and melodramatic plea to let the student pass anyway. He claims that he's a 5-year senior graduating in December, with a marketing job lined up for January. He admits to the misconduct, and knows that he has a literal zero in the course. But he claims that he will write a final essay (due next Friday) that will "put all other essays to shame" and provide answers on the exam that are "so insightful and brilliant that they will bring you to tears." He contends that perfect scores on those two assignments should allow him to pass the course, even though his final grade will only be a 45%. He also says that if I deny him this opportunity, he promises not to take out his anger, and his parents' disappointment, and his future employer's lost productivity out on me. Finally he says, "and I believe in the Oxford comma."
This one is going in my HOF file.
If this does indeed cost him a marketing job, then I'd say that his potential employers, their customers, and their customers' customers are all fortunate.
Quote from: RatGuy on November 12, 2020, 01:02:49 PM
Today's email: a frantic and melodramatic plea to let the student pass anyway. He claims that he's a 5-year senior graduating in December, with a marketing job lined up for January. He admits to the misconduct, and knows that he has a literal zero in the course. But he claims that he will write a final essay (due next Friday) that will "put all other essays to shame" and provide answers on the exam that are "so insightful and brilliant that they will bring you to tears."
This one is going in my HOF file.
How much is he paying for this masterpiece of an essay?
Following up on the lack of training for such social etiquette concerns that is sadly normative in many sh*itty k12 schools (but pretty normative in prep schools and high end suburban public hss), how should college kids be given this training, and how should schools/ academic depts go about verifying that their students have gotten the training/ gotten the message? Coming from someone who went to uberelite slac *in the 80s*, we got absolutely nothing like this then (though the kids from the, ahem, elite hs background-- who often were multigenerational elite families-- already knew this stuff), AND it was almost certain that most of the professors I knew there then would never have been able to give it to me, had I known to ask for it.
Has this changed? And how do we take into consideration the variations between fields/ professions, in terms of expectations for this sort of thing, which as has been alluded to here, can be very stark-- many kids are told to, ahem, be a 'pest', keep on sending those follow-up emails, etc., and it has always been my understanding that in some business-related areas, this is indeed viewed as 'initiative' worthy of respect and action on the part of the recipient thereof. Of course, it is also true that, back in the 80s, rejection letters were still pretty normative, though this was beginning to wane then (I recall the very British, 60-ish president of the school, on learning that many of the prep schools I had interviewed at had not bothered to send reject letters, saying that that was 'just plain lazy').
Quote from: mythbuster on November 12, 2020, 02:59:58 PM
Did he property use said Oxford Comma in his email?
Yeah, though maybe not parenthetical asides.
QuoteThough I'd like to keep this as professional as possible, I DESPERATELY need you to consider the above. I am a good human, loving son, a quality friend, and a terrible student. (And a believer in the utilization of the oxford comma)
Harvard comma.
M.
With registration beginning Monday, I am now sitting on a plethora of emails from students advocating for online labs. These are mostly students in majors that will not accept online labs. They aren't even in my department as these are service courses.
I want to reply "The course will be offered as advertised. Take it, or dont. Your choice".
Grrr.
Hi Dr. Mode,
Are you doing any demos I'll miss out on in lab today?
Stu
>>>>>>>>>>
Stu,
There are no lab demos today. However, there is an exam. And you need to be here to take it.
Dr. Mode
>>>>>>>>>
Dr. Mode,
If I don't come to lab, can I make up the exam?
Stu
>>>>>>>>
Stu,
No. The exam is today, that info has been on the LMS for weeks, and it's also in the syllabus that there is an exam in Week 13.
Hope to see you later,
Dr. Mode
>>>>>>>>
Wonder if he'll show up? He's not currently passing, but not so far behind that he couldn't pass if he put in a wee bit of effort.
Stu, mentioned in the previous post, came to lab and took his exam. It'll be interesting to see whether he passed it or not.
Quote from: EdnaMode on November 20, 2020, 11:26:56 AM
Stu, mentioned in the previous post, came to lab and took his exam. It'll be interesting to see whether he passed it or not.
Fingers crossed?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 20, 2020, 12:51:05 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on November 20, 2020, 11:26:56 AM
Stu, mentioned in the previous post, came to lab and took his exam. It'll be interesting to see whether he passed it or not.
Fingers crossed?
I'll grade the exams over the weekend, so we'll see. We have two weeks of remote class after Thanksgiving week, then a final exam to go. If he doesn't pass this semester, he can take the class again next semester with a colleague. He's not malicious or a grade grubber, just a bit clueless.
Quote from: EdnaMode on November 20, 2020, 05:38:03 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 20, 2020, 12:51:05 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on November 20, 2020, 11:26:56 AM
Stu, mentioned in the previous post, came to lab and took his exam. It'll be interesting to see whether he passed it or not.
Fingers crossed?
I'll grade the exams over the weekend, so we'll see. We have two weeks of remote class after Thanksgiving week, then a final exam to go. If he doesn't pass this semester, he can take the class again next semester with a colleague. He's not malicious or a grade grubber, just a bit clueless.
Well, that's something. :)
We only have two more week of class to go. Got this one today, not sure if it's a "favorite email" or more of a head bang of despair:
QuoteHi Dr. [Geneticist],
Im in [TAs] sectuon. I noticed that all my lab quizzes are zeros, I'm not sure how this happened, does it just say I didn't do those quizzes? I was having severe technical difficulties and other issues in the first weeks of school. I only saw this because I missed lab this week because of work, and went to check if I could make it up. If there's any way I can make any of them up I would appreciate it, if not I understand and will continue to do what I can.
Best Regards,
Hasn't Checked Grades all Quarter
This is a student who was excused from the first week due to internet issues, but since then earned a 0 on the first major assignment, and scored 30% on the midterm. Ironically, they don't have a 0 for ALL of their quizzes, just 3 of them.
Yes, a 0 in the grade book means you didn't do the quiz and earned that 0. I told them to talk with their advisor. It's not mathematically possible to pass.
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 23, 2020, 09:20:54 AM
We only have two more week of class to go. Got this one today, not sure if it's a "favorite email" or more of a head bang of despair:
QuoteHi Dr. [Geneticist],
Im in [TAs] sectuon. I noticed that all my lab quizzes are zeros, I'm not sure how this happened, does it just say I didn't do those quizzes? I was having severe technical difficulties and other issues in the first weeks of school. I only saw this because I missed lab this week because of work, and went to check if I could make it up. If there's any way I can make any of them up I would appreciate it, if not I understand and will continue to do what I can.
Best Regards,
Hasn't Checked Grades all Quarter
I find it odd that "0" may "
just say I didn't do those quizzes". Is there some universe where not doing stuff counts differently than doing horribly badly on it?
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 23, 2020, 10:27:44 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 23, 2020, 09:20:54 AM
We only have two more week of class to go. Got this one today, not sure if it's a "favorite email" or more of a head bang of despair:
QuoteHi Dr. [Geneticist],
Im in [TAs] sectuon. I noticed that all my lab quizzes are zeros, I'm not sure how this happened, does it just say I didn't do those quizzes? I was having severe technical difficulties and other issues in the first weeks of school. I only saw this because I missed lab this week because of work, and went to check if I could make it up. If there's any way I can make any of them up I would appreciate it, if not I understand and will continue to do what I can.
Best Regards,
Hasn't Checked Grades all Quarter
I find it odd that "0" may "just say I didn't do those quizzes". Is there some universe where not doing stuff counts differently than doing horribly badly on it?
Some students seem to think so.
"But I can't fail if I didn't get the chance to do it!".
Maybe they think I have a slightly evil grading scheme where doing really badly could earn a score of less than zero?
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 23, 2020, 09:20:54 AM
We only have two more week of class to go. Got this one today, not sure if it's a "favorite email" or more of a head bang of despair:
QuoteHi Dr. [Geneticist],
Im in [TAs] sectuon. I noticed that all my lab quizzes are zeros, I'm not sure how this happened, does it just say I didn't do those quizzes? I was having severe technical difficulties and other issues in the first weeks of school. I only saw this because I missed lab this week because of work, and went to check if I could make it up. If there's any way I can make any of them up I would appreciate it, if not I understand and will continue to do what I can.
Best Regards,
Hasn't Checked Grades all Quarter
This is a student who was excused from the first week due to internet issues, but since then earned a 0 on the first major assignment, and scored 30% on the midterm. Ironically, they don't have a 0 for ALL of their quizzes, just 3 of them.
Yes, a 0 in the grade book means you didn't do the quiz and earned that 0. I told them to talk with their advisor. It's not mathematically possible to pass.
Sounds like an email I got this past weekend in which a student said they noticed they received a zero for an assignment and does that mean they have to do anything on their end to get credit?
Why, yes. Surprisingly, you must do the assignment to get credit.
It was followed by a student complaining it is not
fair that they lose points for submitting assignments early.
I agree, which is why you
never lose points for submitting assignments early. You do, however, lose points for not submitting an assignment that meets the requirements. As I've told you
several times this semester, you are not completing the assignment as required and specified in the syllabus.
Can this semester be over now?
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 23, 2020, 02:07:41 PM
Maybe they think I have a slightly evil grading scheme where doing really badly could earn a score of less than zero?
I remember being horrified, in my first semester as an undergraduate, when a friend in a different composition class showed me her first essay grade. The instructor graded from a list of errors with a set of standard deductions: -4 per spelling error (or 3 for 10), -5 per comma error, etc. My friend was dyslexic, and there were many spelling errors. The instructor deducted 154 points from her first essay, for a final grade of -54.
I don't know all the contexts (perhaps there was a chance for revision), but my friend was devastated and demoralized. It's hard to recover from a negative grade, in more ways than one.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on November 24, 2020, 05:55:37 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 23, 2020, 02:07:41 PM
Maybe they think I have a slightly evil grading scheme where doing really badly could earn a score of less than zero?
I remember being horrified, in my first semester as an undergraduate, when a friend in a different composition class showed me her first essay grade. The instructor graded from a list of errors with a set of standard deductions: -4 per spelling error (or 3 for 10), -5 per comma error, etc. My friend was dyslexic, and there were many spelling errors. The instructor deducted 154 points from her first essay, for a final grade of -54.
I don't know all the contexts (perhaps there was a chance for revision), but my friend was devastated and demoralized. It's hard to recover from a negative grade, in more ways than one.
AR.
That's not only cruel, but counterproductive. Unless it's one of those fields where lives hang in the balance so that errors are critically important, then students ought to be encouraged to attempt to answer even if they're not entirely sure. Grading schemes (or financial rewards, etc.) must not
*disincentivize behaviour that would be considered desireable.
(*or if that belongs in "Trendy Words I Hate", then substitute "penalize".)
Quote from: AvidReader on November 24, 2020, 05:55:37 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 23, 2020, 02:07:41 PM
Maybe they think I have a slightly evil grading scheme where doing really badly could earn a score of less than zero?
I remember being horrified, in my first semester as an undergraduate, when a friend in a different composition class showed me her first essay grade. The instructor graded from a list of errors with a set of standard deductions: -4 per spelling error (or 3 for 10), -5 per comma error, etc. My friend was dyslexic, and there were many spelling errors. The instructor deducted 154 points from her first essay, for a final grade of -54.
I don't know all the contexts (perhaps there was a chance for revision), but my friend was devastated and demoralized. It's hard to recover from a negative grade, in more ways than one.
AR.
That sounds like some incredibly pedantic grading there. With nothing said about the quality of the student's ideas or expression of them. Sounds like the teacher missed the forest for the trees.
My course announcement email (occasioned by a student asking if it was OK to copy some sentences from sources):
"A reminder about academic integrity:
As you work on your assignment, remember that you must always use your own words-- never copy any text from another source (the papers, other sources, your fellow students). Doing so constitutes plagiarism and is a serious violation of both [University's] student Rights and Responsibilities, and ethics (plus defeats the educational purpose of the assignment). To ensure compliance, your assignments will be run through TurnItIn plagiarism detection software."
Followed immediately but student email:
"Just want to ask can we copy some part of the text when doing the part A summary? Or we can't or need to do in-text citations? Since it is kind of hard to totally use my own words when doing the summary."
Sure stu, surely when I said it was never OK to copy any text, "never" didn't include Part A. Because using your own words is hard, and that wouldn't be fair would it?
ARG! Maybe I should have put this in the banging head on desk thread (though I'm working from the couch, which is at least a softer surface for head banging).
Quote from: AvidReader on November 24, 2020, 05:55:37 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 23, 2020, 02:07:41 PM
Maybe they think I have a slightly evil grading scheme where doing really badly could earn a score of less than zero?
I remember being horrified, in my first semester as an undergraduate, when a friend in a different composition class showed me her first essay grade. The instructor graded from a list of errors with a set of standard deductions: -4 per spelling error (or 3 for 10), -5 per comma error, etc. My friend was dyslexic, and there were many spelling errors. The instructor deducted 154 points from her first essay, for a final grade of -54.
I don't know all the contexts (perhaps there was a chance for revision), but my friend was devastated and demoralized. It's hard to recover from a negative grade, in more ways than one.
AR.
Sounds quite unreasonable. Was the course focused specifically on the mechanics of writing? Otherwise, I can't see any justification for such a punitive grading scheme (and even then, negative scores?!?)
I've seen rubrics taking grammar and spelling into account, but this always represented a finite portion of the total score. So no matter how many spelling errors, you'd never lose more than say 10% of the total possible points.
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 24, 2020, 06:44:40 AM
That's not only cruel, but counterproductive. Unless it's one of those fields where lives hang in the balance so that errors are critically important, then students ought to be encouraged to attempt to answer even if they're not entirely sure. Grading schemes (or financial rewards, etc.) must not *disincentivize behaviour that would be considered desireable.
Quote from: apl68 on November 24, 2020, 07:30:04 AM
That sounds like some incredibly pedantic grading there. With nothing said about the quality of the student's ideas or expression of them. Sounds like the teacher missed the forest for the trees.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 24, 2020, 07:45:41 AM
Sounds quite unreasonable. Was the course focused specifically on the mechanics of writing? Otherwise, I can't see any justification for such a punitive grading scheme (and even then, negative scores?!?)
I've seen rubrics taking grammar and spelling into account, but this always represented a finite portion of the total score. So no matter how many spelling errors, you'd never lose more than say 10% of the total possible points.
I agree with all of the above, for the record (except I've sometimes seen grammar and mechanics take a higher percentage than 10%. One of my recent colleges set it between 25% and 50% depending on the assignment). And this was a general education freshman composition course, so expression of ideas should have been given *at least* equal weight to the mechanics of writing . . .
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on November 24, 2020, 08:19:02 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 24, 2020, 06:44:40 AM
That's not only cruel, but counterproductive. Unless it's one of those fields where lives hang in the balance so that errors are critically important, then students ought to be encouraged to attempt to answer even if they're not entirely sure. Grading schemes (or financial rewards, etc.) must not *disincentivize behaviour that would be considered desireable.
Quote from: apl68 on November 24, 2020, 07:30:04 AM
That sounds like some incredibly pedantic grading there. With nothing said about the quality of the student's ideas or expression of them. Sounds like the teacher missed the forest for the trees.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 24, 2020, 07:45:41 AM
Sounds quite unreasonable. Was the course focused specifically on the mechanics of writing? Otherwise, I can't see any justification for such a punitive grading scheme (and even then, negative scores?!?)
I've seen rubrics taking grammar and spelling into account, but this always represented a finite portion of the total score. So no matter how many spelling errors, you'd never lose more than say 10% of the total possible points.
I agree with all of the above, for the record (except I've sometimes seen grammar and mechanics take a higher percentage than 10%. One of my recent colleges set it between 25% and 50% depending on the assignment). And this was a general education freshman composition course, so expression of ideas should have been given *at least* equal weight to the mechanics of writing . . .
AR.
I teach a lot of comp, and I'd never use a grading scheme like the one originally described.
My office mate, on the other hand, is old school. Any assignment that hits a threshold for grammatical errors -- a pretty low threshold -- receives and automatic F. I'm not sure about the quality of their ideas, but they do seem to learn not to write sentence fragments.
I don't know how anybody could justify a negative grade. Maybe for something so egregious (cheating, dangerous activity in a lab, or the like) that it was worse than no effort?
Quote from: dr_codex on November 24, 2020, 09:23:59 AM
Quote from: AvidReader on November 24, 2020, 08:19:02 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 24, 2020, 06:44:40 AM
That's not only cruel, but counterproductive. Unless it's one of those fields where lives hang in the balance so that errors are critically important, then students ought to be encouraged to attempt to answer even if they're not entirely sure. Grading schemes (or financial rewards, etc.) must not *disincentivize behaviour that would be considered desireable.
Quote from: apl68 on November 24, 2020, 07:30:04 AM
That sounds like some incredibly pedantic grading there. With nothing said about the quality of the student's ideas or expression of them. Sounds like the teacher missed the forest for the trees.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 24, 2020, 07:45:41 AM
Sounds quite unreasonable. Was the course focused specifically on the mechanics of writing? Otherwise, I can't see any justification for such a punitive grading scheme (and even then, negative scores?!?)
I've seen rubrics taking grammar and spelling into account, but this always represented a finite portion of the total score. So no matter how many spelling errors, you'd never lose more than say 10% of the total possible points.
I agree with all of the above, for the record (except I've sometimes seen grammar and mechanics take a higher percentage than 10%. One of my recent colleges set it between 25% and 50% depending on the assignment). And this was a general education freshman composition course, so expression of ideas should have been given *at least* equal weight to the mechanics of writing . . .
AR.
I teach a lot of comp, and I'd never use a grading scheme like the one originally described.
My office mate, on the other hand, is old school. Any assignment that hits a threshold for grammatical errors -- a pretty low threshold -- receives and automatic F. I'm not sure about the quality of their ideas, but they do seem to learn not to write sentence fragments.
I don't know how anybody could justify a negative grade. Maybe for something so egregious (cheating, dangerous activity in a lab, or the like) that it was worse than no effort?
I had a Theatre 101 professor who used a grading scheme that could go negative. His exams were 1/2 essay & 1/2 multiple choice. For the multiple choice, there would be 50 correct answers. All questions would have at least one correct answer, but it never said how many per question. You got +2 for every correct answer you found. And -2 for every Incorrect answer you circled. And -2 for every correct answer you didn't find. The exam ended with folks frantically counting and agonizing over whether it was better to turn in an exam with 48 answers picked or to keep looking (or with 54 answers picked and agonizing over erasing). He did it to minimize cheating and "lucky guessing".
Quote from: dr_codex on November 24, 2020, 09:23:59 AM
I teach a lot of comp, and I'd never use a grading scheme like the one originally described.
My office mate, on the other hand, is old school. Any assignment that hits a threshold for grammatical errors -- a pretty low threshold -- receives and automatic F. I'm not sure about the quality of their ideas, but they do seem to learn not to write sentence fragments.
I don't know how anybody could justify a negative grade. Maybe for something so egregious (cheating, dangerous activity in a lab, or the like) that it was worse than no effort?
Back in my freshpeep writing course, we received two grades: one for content and its expression, the other for grammar/punctuation. After a certain number of grammatical/punctuation errors, we received an F for that portion of the grade. But if you managed an A on content, it was a C overall. So it was a little tough, but in a very finite way that wasn't actually too bad.
Quote from: dr_codex on November 24, 2020, 09:23:59 AM
Quote from: AvidReader on November 24, 2020, 08:19:02 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 24, 2020, 06:44:40 AM
That's not only cruel, but counterproductive. Unless it's one of those fields where lives hang in the balance so that errors are critically important, then students ought to be encouraged to attempt to answer even if they're not entirely sure. Grading schemes (or financial rewards, etc.) must not *disincentivize behaviour that would be considered desireable.
Quote from: apl68 on November 24, 2020, 07:30:04 AM
That sounds like some incredibly pedantic grading there. With nothing said about the quality of the student's ideas or expression of them. Sounds like the teacher missed the forest for the trees.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 24, 2020, 07:45:41 AM
Sounds quite unreasonable. Was the course focused specifically on the mechanics of writing? Otherwise, I can't see any justification for such a punitive grading scheme (and even then, negative scores?!?)
I've seen rubrics taking grammar and spelling into account, but this always represented a finite portion of the total score. So no matter how many spelling errors, you'd never lose more than say 10% of the total possible points.
I agree with all of the above, for the record (except I've sometimes seen grammar and mechanics take a higher percentage than 10%. One of my recent colleges set it between 25% and 50% depending on the assignment). And this was a general education freshman composition course, so expression of ideas should have been given *at least* equal weight to the mechanics of writing . . .
AR.
I teach a lot of comp, and I'd never use a grading scheme like the one originally described.
My office mate, on the other hand, is old school. Any assignment that hits a threshold for grammatical errors -- a pretty low threshold -- receives and automatic F. I'm not sure about the quality of their ideas, but they do seem to learn not to write sentence fragments.
I don't know how anybody could justify a negative grade. Maybe for something so egregious (cheating, dangerous activity in a lab, or the like) that it was worse than no effort?
This discussion over negative grades reminds me of Peppermint Patty's comment when her teacher assigned a letter grade of "Z" on an assignment. "Ma'am, that's not a grad, that's sarcasm!"
Overly anxious student emailed me on Saturday requesting an extension of the deadline for an assignment.
Me: Stu, you submitted your assignment!
Students are probably under extra stress as the hybrid and in-person classes are going online this week.
Quote from: reverist on November 24, 2020, 10:17:20 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on November 24, 2020, 09:23:59 AM
I teach a lot of comp, and I'd never use a grading scheme like the one originally described.
My office mate, on the other hand, is old school. Any assignment that hits a threshold for grammatical errors -- a pretty low threshold -- receives and automatic F. I'm not sure about the quality of their ideas, but they do seem to learn not to write sentence fragments.
I don't know how anybody could justify a negative grade. Maybe for something so egregious (cheating, dangerous activity in a lab, or the like) that it was worse than no effort?
Back in my freshpeep writing course, we received two grades: one for content and its expression, the other for grammar/punctuation. After a certain number of grammatical/punctuation errors, we received an F for that portion of the grade. But if you managed an A on content, it was a C overall. So it was a little tough, but in a very finite way that wasn't actually too bad.
Some of my colleagues in History do this, too. They often include an option to revise the writing.
My attitude is a lot more holistic: I ding essays for mechanics, grammar, punctuation and more, but mainly because they are getting in the way of communication. That is, I don't distinguish between what someone is trying to express and what they are expressing.
"Hi Dr. WrongName,
Is there any way I could take the quizzes I missed?"
Fantasy response:
After their answers were made available before each of the relevant exams? Let me guess - despite it being so late in the semester, you are sure it would be very helpful to show me that you are actually able to pass something. Isn't that so precious...
Actual response:
Dear student;
No, there is not.
Sincerely,
Dr. CorrectName
Regular class meetings at my campus have ended. My on-campus students take their final exam tomorrow, at a date determined before the beginning of the semester. Every student taking this class (dozens of sections) takes the exam at the same time. The date and time are on the syllabus. I have announced them in every class meeting since the beginning of November. I have been sending out reminder emails for the past two weeks and sent another one this afternoon.
Reply to today's reminder email from a student who last attended class (or communicated with me) in September, has turned in 1 (of 6) major pieces of work, and just barely has a grade in the double digits:
[no salutation]
I will have trouble taking my exam, I have a [time the exam starts] class tomorrow and it's doesn't get over until [halfway through exam time]. I don't think i'll have enough time to finish it in the time frame.
[no signature]
I am clearly missing something here. Why . . . ?
AR.
[not the same student as above]
Good Morning Dr. Reader, [points for politeness]
I was checking my grade today, and it says I have a 0 on the second essay. It was due October 26th, and I remember editing and submitting it on October 26th. [The essay was not uploaded and has been graded for three weeks.] Can you possibly open it for today or tomorrow for me to submit? This is showing that I did last edit my essay on the 26th. [attached photo with screen shot of Google Doc.]
Sorry for the inconvenience,
Stu
Quote from: AvidReader on December 02, 2020, 06:30:08 AM
[not the same student as above]
Good Morning Dr. Reader, [points for politeness]
I was checking my grade today, and it says I have a 0 on the second essay. It was due October 26th, and I remember editing and submitting it on October 26th. [The essay was not uploaded and has been graded for three weeks.] Can you possibly open it for today or tomorrow for me to submit? This is showing that I did last edit my essay on the 26th. [attached photo with screen shot of Google Doc.]
Sorry for the inconvenience,
Stu
These types of emails are one of my pet peeves. I spend time in class explaining how to double-and-triple check the status of submissions, and I've started to include a "how-to" video on Blackboard. I've found that Mac users will sometimes experience problems uploading, but in all of the cases the students haven't received a digital receipt, nor can they access their submitted assignment, nor do they see the icon indicating their submission was received by Blackboard. It doesn't matter that they "clearly remember submitting it" or provide "proof that I haven't added to it since the deadline." What matters is that it wasn't submitted on time, and three weeks later is not the time to realize you goofed.
"Why did my grade go down"?
That is it in its entirety.
Quote from: FishProf on December 02, 2020, 07:20:00 AM
"Why did my grade go down"?
That is it in its entirety.
Those are the sorts of emails I tend to just delete.
I usually do the same. This time, I sent a response telling student to calculate what the grade should be and then contact me with discrepancies.
So far, crickets.
QuoteOhk, so i m working on [essay prompt], is it okay if i m working on this?
Yes?
I built a stock reply for grade appeals: Please submit any evidence showing an incorrect calculation on my part.
There were two times I had legitimately screwed up, and I was able to correct it and apologize.
The rest? Not so much. Saved a lot of time. :-)
Darned evidence, anyway...
After I entered zeros for all the assignments that were not completed for a class, I got this gem:
"Good evening Professor, I noticed you changes a lot of my grades to 0. Did I do those assignments wrong?"
My reply. "No. You didn't do them at all."
Quote from: FishProf on December 07, 2020, 02:12:32 PM
After I entered zeros for all the assignments that were not completed for a class, I got this gem:
"Good evening Professor, I noticed you changes a lot of my grades to 0. Did I do those assignments wrong?"
My reply. "No. You didn't do them at all."
And this is why I tell my TAs to keep their grade book up to date after every assignment.
Apparently someone thinks it's grossly unprofessional to re-use lecture videos.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 07, 2020, 06:00:32 PM
Apparently someone thinks it's grossly unprofessional to re-use lecture videos.
Maybe since Zoom allows virtual backgrounds at some point they'll have virtual clothing so the recorded lecture can be delivered each time with a different shirt on. Maybe even virtual hairstyles.
The possibilities are endless.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 08, 2020, 05:48:05 AM
Maybe since Zoom allows virtual backgrounds at some point they'll have virtual clothing so the recorded lecture can be delivered each time with a different shirt on. Maybe even virtual hairstyles.
The possibilities are endless.
I think the shirts are feasible now. Just record every lecture wearing a bright green shirt, then use a video editor to layer in a new color/background/shirt like a green screen. (Google "Melania Trump Green Screen Dress" if you haven't seen it!).
Also, that is a student who is wasting a lot of time figuring out that the videos have not been changed. Sheesh.
AR.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 07, 2020, 06:00:32 PM
Apparently someone thinks it's grossly unprofessional to re-use lecture videos.
I think it's just fine for short, content-based lectures.
My issue is that I'm actively battling against administrators who don't understand why we can't just have TAs record one DISCUSSION class and play it for the rest of their students (you know, since it would really help with the budget to hire fewer TAs). REALLY?!?
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 08, 2020, 08:46:02 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 07, 2020, 06:00:32 PM
Apparently someone thinks it's grossly unprofessional to re-use lecture videos.
I think it's just fine for short, content-based lectures.
My issue is that I'm actively battling against administrators who don't understand why we can't just have TAs record one DISCUSSION class and play it for the rest of their students (you know, since it would really help with the budget to hire fewer TAs). REALLY?!?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 08, 2020, 08:46:02 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 07, 2020, 06:00:32 PM
Apparently someone thinks it's grossly unprofessional to re-use lecture videos.
I think it's just fine for short, content-based lectures.
My issue is that I'm actively battling against administrators who don't understand why we can't just have TAs record one DISCUSSION class and play it for the rest of their students (you know, since it would really help with the budget to hire fewer TAs). REALLY?!?
"Most of our students graduate not knowing how to participate in a discussion, but they do know what one LOOKS like!"
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 07, 2020, 06:00:32 PM
Apparently someone thinks it's grossly unprofessional to re-use lecture videos.
Clearly that someone doesn't have to put in the time and effort to make new lecture videos every time.
(A friend is using lecture videos from a couple of years ago, and a student who was failing early in her 16 week online class transferred to the 12 week online session. That student complained to admin that the same videos were used in both classes. Clearly
someone has way too much free time, as my friend quickly made crystal clear to the admin who suggested it really would be nice for her to update separate videos for separate sections.)
Quote from: AmLitHist on December 08, 2020, 02:40:39 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 07, 2020, 06:00:32 PM
Apparently someone thinks it's grossly unprofessional to re-use lecture videos.
Clearly that someone doesn't have to put in the time and effort to make new lecture videos every time.
(A friend is using lecture videos from a couple of years ago, and a student who was failing early in her 16 week online class transferred to the 12 week online session. That student complained to admin that the same videos were used in both classes. Clearly someone has way too much free time, as my friend quickly made crystal clear to the admin who suggested it really would be nice for her to update separate videos for separate sections.)
That is ridiculous. I taught 6 sections of the same intro-level class this fall. No way am I making a separate video on, say, citations for every class. What a (potential) waste of instructor time and resources. Next semester, students taking that intro class will get the same videos, and students taking the next course in the sequence will still be directed back to some of these videos when relevant.
Also, the student should be grateful for the consistent overlap, since it would theoretically mean that the student would not need to re-watch material already covered.
AR.
Quote from: AmLitHist on December 08, 2020, 02:40:39 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 07, 2020, 06:00:32 PM
Apparently someone thinks it's grossly unprofessional to re-use lecture videos.
Clearly that someone doesn't have to put in the time and effort to make new lecture videos every time.
(A friend is using lecture videos from a couple of years ago, and a student who was failing early in her 16 week online class transferred to the 12 week online session. That student complained to admin that the same videos were used in both classes. Clearly someone has way too much free time, as my friend quickly made crystal clear to the admin who suggested it really would be nice for her to update separate videos for separate sections.)
Include a 30 second introduction saying that the video was specially formulated for this particular class (much like textbook publishers that frequently issue new editions with minor changes to squelch the used textbook market). Voila!
We've been specifically told that any videos created this fall cannot EVER be used in class again. (Are they worried about infecting 2021 and beyond?)
Quote from: waterboy on December 09, 2020, 06:19:39 AM
We've been specifically told that any videos created this fall cannot EVER be used in class again. (Are they worried about infecting 2021 and beyond?)
Just ignore "directives" like that. Your lectures are your intellectual property, and you can do with them what you want.
Quote from: waterboy on December 09, 2020, 06:19:39 AM
We've been specifically told that any videos created this fall cannot EVER be used in class again. (Are they worried about infecting 2021 and beyond?)
Who does the directive come from? It would make more sense if it came from faculty, because that would emphasize the indispensibility of that professor-student connection made at a special moment in time.
If we can just re-use videos, then that means faculty are more dispensible, so long as their videos are still available to show the students. Just show the videos and hire someone to interact with the students and grade the work (using a rubric of course). That could significantly reduce the need for faculty.
Quote from: waterboy on December 09, 2020, 06:19:39 AM
We've been specifically told that any videos created this fall cannot EVER be used in class again. (Are they worried about infecting 2021 and beyond?)
This sounds insane. I have heavy video content on my LMS for a skills based class (examples of me demonstrating). I've been building videos for the past few years (adding, replacing, updating as tech/materials change, etc). It's hundreds of hours of work. There's no way I could re-create this every semester. I'm sure I'm not alone in this process. Are they going to delete everyone's LMS video cache in December?
Quote from: downer on December 09, 2020, 06:38:32 AM
Quote from: waterboy on December 09, 2020, 06:19:39 AM
We've been specifically told that any videos created this fall cannot EVER be used in class again. (Are they worried about infecting 2021 and beyond?)
Who does the directive come from? It would make more sense if it came from faculty, because that would emphasize the indispensibility of that professor-student connection made at a special moment in time.
If we can just re-use videos, then that means faculty are more dispensible, so long as their videos are still available to show the students. Just show the videos and hire someone to interact with the students and grade the work (using a rubric of course). That could significantly reduce the need for faculty.
I think the worry from admin is like the worry about high tuition for remote instruction. Since the (literally) visible part of what "instructors" do is stand up in front and "instruct", replaying recorded videos calls into question the value of the "instruction".
(Of course, the obvious point is that the
real work in instruction isn't delivering lectures, but in choosing course content, developing and evaluating assignments, projects, exams, etc. But those aren't so "visible".)
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 09, 2020, 07:08:20 AM
Quote from: downer on December 09, 2020, 06:38:32 AM
Quote from: waterboy on December 09, 2020, 06:19:39 AM
We've been specifically told that any videos created this fall cannot EVER be used in class again. (Are they worried about infecting 2021 and beyond?)
Who does the directive come from? It would make more sense if it came from faculty, because that would emphasize the indispensibility of that professor-student connection made at a special moment in time.
If we can just re-use videos, then that means faculty are more dispensible, so long as their videos are still available to show the students. Just show the videos and hire someone to interact with the students and grade the work (using a rubric of course). That could significantly reduce the need for faculty.
I think the worry from admin is like the worry about high tuition for remote instruction. Since the (literally) visible part of what "instructors" do is stand up in front and "instruct", replaying recorded videos calls into question the value of the "instruction".
(Of course, the obvious point is that the real work in instruction isn't delivering lectures, but in choosing course content, developing and evaluating assignments, projects, exams, etc. But those aren't so "visible".)
Yes, that sounds plausible, if the college is private and charges large amounts of money. It's an image problem, convincing the parents to hand over the cash.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on December 09, 2020, 06:56:10 AM
Quote from: waterboy on December 09, 2020, 06:19:39 AM
We've been specifically told that any videos created this fall cannot EVER be used in class again. (Are they worried about infecting 2021 and beyond?)
This sounds insane. I have heavy video content on my LMS for a skills based class (examples of me demonstrating). I've been building videos for the past few years (adding, replacing, updating as tech/materials change, etc). It's hundreds of hours of work. There's no way I could re-create this every semester. I'm sure I'm not alone in this process. Are they going to delete everyone's LMS video cache in December?
I'm now very grateful that my LMS can't handle more than 2 videos (they say), so I have been posting everything to YouTube. If I weren't allowed to re-use them in future semesters, I would just assign the past videos as mandatory "reading" (with a quiz) and offer an optional live Q&A on the material.
There are topics where an updated video would matter. Infectious disease research probably changes weekly, at this point. Maybe political studies. But in introductory courses, this type of constraint is a massive waste of time.
Waterboy, can you do what Anon1787 suggests?
(Or re-record, wearing a different shirt, but just lip-sync).
AR.
Quote from: AmLitHist on December 08, 2020, 02:40:39 PM
Clearly that someone doesn't have to put in the time and effort to make new lecture videos every time.
(A friend is using lecture videos from a couple of years ago, and a student who was failing early in her 16 week online class transferred to the 12 week online session. That student complained to admin that the same videos were used in both classes. Clearly someone has way too much free time, as my friend quickly made crystal clear to the admin who suggested it really would be nice for her to update separate videos for separate sections.)
No kidding!
I mean, I agree that my video content isn't very good, especially compared to a live class. But that's what you get when I have to record new sets of videos for four classes every week. Give me years to refine things a bit, and I will! (But only a bit.)
Quote from: AvidReader on December 08, 2020, 04:09:44 PM
That is ridiculous. I taught 6 sections of the same intro-level class this fall. No way am I making a separate video on, say, citations for every class. What a (potential) waste of instructor time and resources. Next semester, students taking that intro class will get the same videos, and students taking the next course in the sequence will still be directed back to some of these videos when relevant.
Seriously: I don't even think it's worth having a slightly different opening splash page for each class. No point having six sets of videos for the exact same topic.
Quote from: Anon1787 on December 08, 2020, 06:25:20 PM
Include a 30 second introduction saying that the video was specially formulated for this particular class (much like textbook publishers that frequently issue new editions with minor changes to squelch the used textbook market). Voila!
Yeah... in my case, the student was complaining (in part) that I'd directed them to a video I'd recorded for a summer class and in which I began by explaining it was formulated for that class. I guess they would have preferred the illusion of original content. Shrug. I might go back and erase the explanation sometime during the winter break. We'll see.
Quote from: waterboy on December 09, 2020, 06:19:39 AM
We've been specifically told that any videos created this fall cannot EVER be used in class again. (Are they worried about infecting 2021 and beyond?)
That's totally bonkers. 0_o
Quote from: waterboy on December 09, 2020, 06:19:39 AM
We've been specifically told that any videos created this fall cannot EVER be used in class again. (Are they worried about infecting 2021 and beyond?)
I'd ignore that directive. I've created some very nice, semi-professionally edited demonstration videos that I will use in my future classes, even when we go back to teaching in person.
I get that we want to make sure that we aren't viewed a replaceable by a recording, but I'd argue that the videos are only one small portion of what I contribute to teaching. And since they are MY materials, I can use them how I want in my classes (and I do NOT have to let anyone else use them).
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 09, 2020, 10:41:13 AM
Yeah... in my case, the student was complaining (in part) that I'd directed them to a video I'd recorded for a summer class and in which I began by explaining it was formulated for that class. I guess they would have preferred the illusion of original content. Shrug. I might go back and erase the explanation sometime during the winter break. We'll see.
Because I post my videos to YouTube, I start most by saying something like "This video is on citations [or whatever] but is specifically designed for students at Reader University working on a research essay [or whatever] that requires JSTOR sources [or whatever]." Maybe I should practice adding other caveats and then can swap them in and out as necessary . . .
AR.
Quote from: Aster on December 09, 2020, 06:22:06 AM
Quote from: waterboy on December 09, 2020, 06:19:39 AM
We've been specifically told that any videos created this fall cannot EVER be used in class again. (Are they worried about infecting 2021 and beyond?)
Just ignore "directives" like that. Your lectures are your intellectual property, and you can do with them what you want.
Is this the case in the US? In both the UK and Australia all IP developed in the course of someone's university employment is owned by the university, unless specifically exempt by written agreement. Exemptions tend to be research related and the industry that gets the IP pays a massive premium.
Personally, my hope is that I won't need to use videos again. Much prefer to stand up in person. But...I will reuse if the situation demands it.
Quote from: science.expat on December 09, 2020, 11:20:39 PM
Quote from: Aster on December 09, 2020, 06:22:06 AM
Quote from: waterboy on December 09, 2020, 06:19:39 AM
We've been specifically told that any videos created this fall cannot EVER be used in class again. (Are they worried about infecting 2021 and beyond?)
Just ignore "directives" like that. Your lectures are your intellectual property, and you can do with them what you want.
Is this the case in the US? In both the UK and Australia all IP developed in the course of someone's university employment is owned by the university, unless specifically exempt by written agreement. Exemptions tend to be research related and the industry that gets the IP pays a massive premium.
I don't know if it is universal, but I think it is common here for teaching materials to be the intellectual property of the professor, unless you've been specifically hired to create a class for others to use. In the same way, you generally own the copyright to things you write as a faculty member (until such time as it is transferred to a publisher, if applicable). However, there are generally other rules about IP that was in part created with university resources which has the potential to generate revenue (e.g. patents) which generally involves revenue sharing.
Quote from: waterboy on December 10, 2020, 05:58:39 AM
Personally, my hope is that I won't need to use videos again. Much prefer to stand up in person. But...I will reuse if the situation demands it.
For videos that explain procedures or processes, I'd much rather point students to them than go over it AGAIN.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 09, 2020, 11:08:07 AM
I've created some very nice, semi-professionally edited demonstration videos that I will use in my future classes, even when we go back to teaching in person.
Yup. By the 13th lab section in a week, the "magic" of explaining a process or procedure is gone.
Received Today. During "Finals Week" where we are not allowed to accept any other student work.
"Hello Fishprof,
I wanted to reach out to you for a few different reasons. First, I just recently took the JW1 test and it froze half way through the exam, scoring me with a 13%! I was hoping I would be able to take this exam over. Secondly, I was wondering if I could be given access to the quizzes that I was not able to complete due to being added to the classes roster late. ( GTPT, BHWRWS, SAP, BTD, JP1, Cosmos 2 ).
I am really hoping that my final grade will improve my grade. Overall Ive thoroughly enjoyed this class and have learned alot!
Thank you!
[Student I have never heard from before today]"
Not a single one of those assignments was due before the add deadline. Not a one.
Stu Dent: "Prof, I had a 78 before the last test, and now my overall grade is much lower. Could you tell me why?"
I check student's grades. Yeah, he *once maybe had a 78*. But that ship sailed weeks ago. The guy flunked his most recent exam. All of his exam grades are posted to the LMS. He can obviously see that he flunked his most recent exam, which also obviously is why his grades are now down.
Me: "All of your exam scores are posted and accessible. Your first exam scores were this, this, and that. Your last exam score was much lower."
Yes, your course grade is lower because your exam grades are lower.
Student who attended class exactly once, to take the first exam, never turned in a single weekly assignment, did not take the second exam, did not complete the final assignment, and did not respond to repeated messages from me or her advisor imploring her first to meet with us about her performance, then to drop before it was too late--
Today, the day of the final exam, emails me a solid wall of text email with her tale of mental health woe, and asks whether, in addition to completing all the assignments she missed (already a no), I can also make up a paper assignment just for her. I don't doubt the mental health problems, and I feel bad for her, but man is that delusional. This isn't even close to qualifying for an incomplete, which we can only give if they have only a final exam or assignment outstanding due to extenuating circumstances and were making satisfactory progress up to that point.
I explained this as gently as I could and cc'ed her advisor, suggesting the two of them meet to discuss a retroactive medical leave of absence, which is really her best bet at this point.
I received a good one last week. There was a forwarded message about having been lotteried out of a class with the following message above: "What should I do now? lol" This from a student who showed up for advising last month (on Zoom) in only a sports bra on top.
Yeah, it's funny how much time and energy a failing student will put into the last days of a course, writing the equivalent of a major essay explaining why they haven't done any academic work during all of the rest of the term. And we're like, "this whiny book that you wrote me represents more than the sum total of academic work that you've submitted all semester."
I sometimes wonder how people who display these behaviors turn out later in their lives. Do they graduate? Do they raise children? Do they plan out their lives or just live moment to moment? Do they TikTok? So many mysteries...
And the saga of the "no good deed goes unpunished" student has finally resolved (I hope). Their final exam is RIGHT NOW. Got an email last night with a request for a late drop form. Their reason was that they had changed their mind (again) and now wanted to be dropped since we wouldn't let them turn in 2 weeks of material late for full credit. Now let's see if the Dean signs the d@mn form . . . .
Keep in mind that info about the final being online is in the syllabus, the exam module has been posted on Canvas since October 1st with a Zoom link, and in the last lecture we had last week, I reminded all the students again that they must be on Zoom for the final and it would be recorded (as per our School policy for online exams). I received this email just now, the final is this evening. At least he is polite.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hello Dr. Mode,
This is Stu from your [class]. I can't quite remember if we are supposed to be on zoom or not for the final exam and if so would it be the lecture/office hour zoom link. I'm sorry that I can't remember it for 100% but I figured I should double check. Thank you and have a nice day.
Stu
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's the time of year for the "please, I'm begging you for [more points/extra credit/rounding up my grade]" emails. Their wishful thinking + math errors leads to some AMAZING leaps of logic.
No, giving you 1/2 credit on a tiny assignment that was due weeks ago (and you forgot about) will not increase your grade from a C to an A.
"Bumping up" your grade in this class to an A does NOT "guarantee you at least a 70% in your other classes" (Uh, you do know that all your classes are independent? I don't know your other course grades and it wouldn't matter if I did.)
But at least these emails are easy to answer because the answer is always No.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 17, 2020, 09:44:42 AM
It's the time of year for the "please, I'm begging you for [more points/extra credit/rounding up my grade]" emails. Their wishful thinking + math errors leads to some AMAZING leaps of logic.
No, giving you 1/2 credit on a tiny assignment that was due weeks ago (and you forgot about) will not increase your grade from a C to an A.
"Bumping up" your grade in this class to an A does NOT "guarantee you at least a 70% in your other classes" (Uh, you do know that all your classes are independent? I don't know your other course grades and it wouldn't matter if I did.)
But at least these emails are easy to answer because the answer is always No.
I
HATE these emails. It took me a while to understand my non-linear negative reactions: in essence, the students that send these emails are implying that I should apply unfair and arbitrary grading to my class (i.e., give them an advantage that the other students do not have). To minimize the number of such emails I receive, I have chosen to turn off the automatic grade total in the LMS. Students can still see the individual assignment grades, so they could total their score by hand, but that would require effort. So I no longer get as many of the "I have 79.9%, can't you just round that to a B- since I need that grade to get into X, Y, or Z program." [Which rarely includes the additional factual statement of "oh, and I was too lazy to do the weekly assignments that were equivalent to participation points, which, had I done them, would have put me at 82.9% so I would be writing this same email to beg for a B instead of a B-".] This also gives me time to submit the grades, so my "No" responses can be even simpler: "No, the final grades have been submitted. I can only change final grades if there was an arithmetic or typographical error."
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 10, 2020, 06:22:31 AM
Quote from: waterboy on December 10, 2020, 05:58:39 AM
Personally, my hope is that I won't need to use videos again. Much prefer to stand up in person. But...I will reuse if the situation demands it.
For videos that explain procedures or processes, I'd much rather point students to them than go over it AGAIN.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 09, 2020, 11:08:07 AM
I've created some very nice, semi-professionally edited demonstration videos that I will use in my future classes, even when we go back to teaching in person.
Yup. By the 13th lab section in a week, the "magic" of explaining a process or procedure is gone.
I've just got an email from my administration advising us that any video that includes students in it cannot be used because it would be a violation of FERPA. (The idea being that a student's name, and maybe image, is protected information.) I am not sure if I buy that, but evidently somebody or somebody's lawyer is worried enough of being sued to advise us that we cannot re-use any video that contains images of students. I could see somebody translating "do not reuse zoom lectures" into "do not reuse online videos."
Quote from: jerseyjay on December 17, 2020, 12:33:11 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 10, 2020, 06:22:31 AM
Quote from: waterboy on December 10, 2020, 05:58:39 AM
Personally, my hope is that I won't need to use videos again. Much prefer to stand up in person. But...I will reuse if the situation demands it.
For videos that explain procedures or processes, I'd much rather point students to them than go over it AGAIN.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 09, 2020, 11:08:07 AM
I've created some very nice, semi-professionally edited demonstration videos that I will use in my future classes, even when we go back to teaching in person.
Yup. By the 13th lab section in a week, the "magic" of explaining a process or procedure is gone.
I've just got an email from my administration advising us that any video that includes students in it cannot be used because it would be a violation of FERPA. (The idea being that a student's name, and maybe image, is protected information.) I am not sure if I buy that, but evidently somebody or somebody's lawyer is worried enough of being sued to advise us that we cannot re-use any video that contains images of students. I could see somebody translating "do not reuse zoom lectures" into "do not reuse online videos."
I'm very sure that having students visible (names or images) without their consent in recordings is a FERPA violation. Videos that are just you or you and other folks who have explicitly agreed to be filmed & have the videos shared is just fine.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 17, 2020, 01:25:27 PM
Quote from: jerseyjay on December 17, 2020, 12:33:11 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 10, 2020, 06:22:31 AM
Quote from: waterboy on December 10, 2020, 05:58:39 AM
Personally, my hope is that I won't need to use videos again. Much prefer to stand up in person. But...I will reuse if the situation demands it.
For videos that explain procedures or processes, I'd much rather point students to them than go over it AGAIN.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 09, 2020, 11:08:07 AM
I've created some very nice, semi-professionally edited demonstration videos that I will use in my future classes, even when we go back to teaching in person.
Yup. By the 13th lab section in a week, the "magic" of explaining a process or procedure is gone.
I've just got an email from my administration advising us that any video that includes students in it cannot be used because it would be a violation of FERPA. (The idea being that a student's name, and maybe image, is protected information.) I am not sure if I buy that, but evidently somebody or somebody's lawyer is worried enough of being sued to advise us that we cannot re-use any video that contains images of students. I could see somebody translating "do not reuse zoom lectures" into "do not reuse online videos."
I'm very sure that having students visible (names or images) without their consent in recordings is a FERPA violation. Videos that are just you or you and other folks who have explicitly agreed to be filmed & have the videos shared is just fine.
Students' names are considered directory information, and are public unless the student has expressly stated that their information is to be kept confidential. Registrars' offices generally have forms that students must fill out in order to maintain their privacy. Images are another story. At my previous institution, a student was assumed to have given consent to be photographed or videographed if they did not physically remove themselves from the space or otherwise specifically request privacy. In other words, they had to opt out. This was a change, as a couple of years previously, we had to get students' written permission to photograph them (they signed a form).
You may want to check with the registrar's office or legal counsel. Some of these situations are so new with everything moving to virtual platforms that laws and policies may need to be clarified or developed to address them.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 17, 2020, 01:25:27 PM
Quote from: jerseyjay on December 17, 2020, 12:33:11 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 10, 2020, 06:22:31 AM
Quote from: waterboy on December 10, 2020, 05:58:39 AM
Personally, my hope is that I won't need to use videos again. Much prefer to stand up in person. But...I will reuse if the situation demands it.
For videos that explain procedures or processes, I'd much rather point students to them than go over it AGAIN.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 09, 2020, 11:08:07 AM
I've created some very nice, semi-professionally edited demonstration videos that I will use in my future classes, even when we go back to teaching in person.
Yup. By the 13th lab section in a week, the "magic" of explaining a process or procedure is gone.
I've just got an email from my administration advising us that any video that includes students in it cannot be used because it would be a violation of FERPA. (The idea being that a student's name, and maybe image, is protected information.) I am not sure if I buy that, but evidently somebody or somebody's lawyer is worried enough of being sued to advise us that we cannot re-use any video that contains images of students. I could see somebody translating "do not reuse zoom lectures" into "do not reuse online videos."
I'm very sure that having students visible (names or images) without their consent in recordings is a FERPA violation. Videos that are just you or you and other folks who have explicitly agreed to be filmed & have the videos shared is just fine.
IIRC it is about how the videos are used. If they are only shared with the class, such as for students who missed class and want a replay, it's fine. But they should not be used for advertising, in future classes as content, and so on where non-classmates would see it.
Reusing zoom class instances instead of a recorded lecture segment is very much a problem for the school wanting to charge full price.
Several years ago, the message going around was "In the future, <Harvard> students will interact with professors live in the classroom. <Antelope Valley College> students will watch <Harvard> students interact with professors" with substitutions for the exact institutional names.
Watching earlier non-elite students interact with a professor would often be worse than getting to listen in to a good live discussion for subjects that will change, unlike watching a great lecture on, say, quadratic equations that will remain relevant for the next decade.
Quote from: polly_mer on December 17, 2020, 04:35:29 PM
Reusing zoom class instances instead of a recorded lecture segment is very much a problem for the school wanting to charge full price.
Several years ago, the message going around was "In the future, <Harvard> students will interact with professors live in the classroom. <Antelope Valley College> students will watch <Harvard> students interact with professors" with substitutions for the exact institutional names.
Watching earlier non-elite students interact with a professor would often be worse than getting to listen in to a good live discussion for subjects that will change, unlike watching a great lecture on, say, quadratic equations that will remain relevant for the next decade.
Yeah, I don't think you could really re-use Zoomed lectures. Or, should, anyway, especially because of privacy legislation.
Although I think there are good pedagogical reasons to showcase a high-quality student discussion from elsewhere, I'd be worried about how crappy it would feel to be a student at our dinkier university just watching some other students elsewhere interacting (especially if it's with a different instructor entirely!). I imagine it would be pretty alienating!
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 18, 2020, 06:21:06 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 17, 2020, 04:35:29 PM
Reusing zoom class instances instead of a recorded lecture segment is very much a problem for the school wanting to charge full price.
Several years ago, the message going around was "In the future, <Harvard> students will interact with professors live in the classroom. <Antelope Valley College> students will watch <Harvard> students interact with professors" with substitutions for the exact institutional names.
Watching earlier non-elite students interact with a professor would often be worse than getting to listen in to a good live discussion for subjects that will change, unlike watching a great lecture on, say, quadratic equations that will remain relevant for the next decade.
Yeah, I don't think you could really re-use Zoomed lectures. Or, should, anyway, especially because of privacy legislation.
Although I think there are good pedagogical reasons to showcase a high-quality student discussion from elsewhere, I'd be worried about how crappy it would feel to be a student at our dinkier university just watching some other students elsewhere interacting (especially if it's with a different instructor entirely!). I imagine it would be pretty alienating!
Yes, for privacy reasons, unless you had all of the students sign waivers, you should not re-use a Zoom class if students are heard or seen in the recording The lecture is your intellectual property, but their questions or discussions are not.
"I apologize on my behalf for being late"
I'm just wondering whether the student wrote this, or a parent.
From my course evaluations:
"Really, the biggest and most serious issue with this course is the course project which accounts for 20% of the final grade. The project is in [X programming language] and that made my life very tough because we have not been adequately prepared for [X programming language]".
FYI: The project was in an entirely different programming language.
It's the end of week 1 classes and I didn't get nearly as many emails as I'd feared, I think mostly because this is our third quarter of online instruction.
But I did get a classic "I forgot to go to class, did I miss anything?"
Oh, nothing really. Just the first quiz, meeting your classmates, collaborative work time for the first assignment, and the best opportunity to ask questions and get help.
I did something for a student and the reply was "Thanks. I appreciated."
I couldn't work out whether it was a typo.
Quote from: downer on January 13, 2021, 07:38:10 AM
I did something for a student and the reply was "Thanks. I appreciated."
I couldn't work out whether it was a typo.
Perhaps the student got the job?
Quote from: downer on January 13, 2021, 07:38:10 AM
I did something for a student and the reply was "Thanks. I appreciated."
I couldn't work out whether it was a typo.
ESL student? Autocorrect? The possibilities are endless.
Quote from: Cheerful on January 13, 2021, 12:46:30 PM
Quote from: downer on January 13, 2021, 07:38:10 AM
I did something for a student and the reply was "Thanks. I appreciated."
I couldn't work out whether it was a typo.
Perhaps the student got the job?
Well, becoming gainfully employed would no doubt help the student's net worth.
Quote"Hey, I didn't come to class Wednesday or Friday so I don't know what group I'm in. It says that we have class today but I went to the building and everything is locked and no one is around so I guess we don't. I guess any help is appreciated. TIA."
Dude, everything is posted on the schedule, including today's holiday. I don't know what "it" means when you say "it says we have class today," unless that's one of your fraternity brothers tricking you into going to class at 8am today. Your next day of attendance is Friday, but will you follow my instructions and read the syllabus to know that?
Teachable moment department: Advice on IHE to students on how not to look silly with their e-mails:
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2015/04/16/advice-students-so-they-dont-sound-silly-emails-essay
Quote from: apl68 on January 20, 2021, 09:58:16 AM
Teachable moment department: Advice on IHE to students on how not to look silly with their e-mails:
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2015/04/16/advice-students-so-they-dont-sound-silly-emails-essay
I'd amend this one:
Quote
1. Use a clear subject line. The subject "Rhetorical Analysis Essay" would work a bit better than "heeeeelp!" (and much better than the unforgivable blank subject line).
Since most instructors are probably teaching more than 1 course or section, including course number and section in the title helps.
e.g.
BW101B -Assignment 1 question makes it really easy to find the student in the appropriate class list.
It's a good article; it wouldn't hurst to have it as required reading at the beginning of term, especially for first year students.
Gem from a student whose name appeared sometime early afternoon yesterday, but waited until 10 PM to email me:
"Hi sorry to bother you but I was just added to the class today , I was wondering if there's any syllabus and anything I need to know that's important?"
This is an online asynchronous class. All the information is on Canvas. Stu emailed me from Canvas.
Dear Dr Fisphrof and Professor Other,
It has come to my attention that I was dropped from [Basketweaving 2] for the spring. I had previously spoken to Professor Other before and had an establishment of me taking the course. I've been preparing for the course over this break. I am confused as to what exactly has happened for me to be dropped right before classes start. I had a great conversation with the professor, we established a plan of things to do in order to prepare for the class. I've been studying and working hard. Please allow me to stay in this course this semester, I more than capable of getting an A in the course.
Sincerley,
Genuinely Confused Student"
Could it be that the reason the registrar gave in the notification email, specifically that you FAILED the prerequisite [Fibers I] course is, in fact, the reason you were dropped?
Fishprof, I didn't know that students had "establishments" with professors.
Received this one: "Hi, I just wanted to know where I could find the reading [title of the reading]" (all lower case, despite the fact that the title includes proper nouns)
Reading, handout on background information on the reading, and another handout on the vocabulary are all on Canvas, in the first module. Stu hasn't completed any assignments so far.
This is going to be a long semester.
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 25, 2021, 09:36:33 AM
Fishprof, I didn't know that students had "establishments" with professors.
Received this one: "Hi, I just wanted to know where I could find the reading [title of the reading]" (all lower case, despite the fact that the title includes proper nouns)
Reading, handout on background information on the reading, and another handout on the vocabulary are all on Canvas, in the first module. Stu hasn't completed any assignments so far.
This is going to be a long semester.
I feel your pain. Lab reports must be one file and in one of three formats. These requirements are listed in the syllabus, the assignment folder where they turn in the lab and in the module instructions. Guess how many people submitted up to five files for a lab report?
Hint: It's not one.
I have to put in my syllabus and announce, repeatedly, "I will NOT assemble your lab reports for you".
Maddening.
Quote from: FishProf on January 26, 2021, 03:23:48 AM
I have to put in my syllabus and announce, repeatedly, "I will NOT assemble your lab reports for you".
Maddening.
I agree. I've resorted to not quite draconian measures and just gave them zeros after a 2 email warning.
Yet another one from Student who has apparently not read any of the information and who has not submitted any of the assignments:
"What do you need exactly by this week ? Im confused on what is to be handed in, I read the discussion post and the week 2 module, but still confused on it. Where can I find the [reading] as well?"
Perhaps read the first week's module? In my reply to Stu, I was tempted to add a sentence to the effect that the course is not taught through email.
This one was forwarded to a bunch of us by our Academic Dean:
I dont know if the problem is on my end but its been a full week of classes but none of the professors have contacted me for anything like a zoom call or other method of communication i dont know if im missing classes or not and i wish not to fall to far behind i wont be able to go to campus tomorrow because i am still waiting on my covid results if there is anyway you can help me please let me know
I'd love to know what Stu thought we were all doing, behind Stu's back. Or what made Stu finally twig that perhaps all of the faculty, administration, and staff were not the problem. Activate your email!
Quote from: dr_codex on January 26, 2021, 02:42:35 PM
This one was forwarded to a bunch of us by our Academic Dean:
I dont know if the problem is on my end but its been a full week of classes but none of the professors have contacted me for anything like a zoom call or other method of communication i dont know if im missing classes or not and i wish not to fall to far behind i wont be able to go to campus tomorrow because i am still waiting on my covid results if there is anyway you can help me please let me know
I'd love to know what Stu thought we were all doing, behind Stu's back. Or what made Stu finally twig that perhaps all of the faculty, administration, and staff were not the problem. Activate your email!
Perhaps Stu hasn't yet logged on to their online course? Or not turned on their notifications? Or waiting for their professor to add them to their Facebook account?
I'm getting ready to send an announcement to the effect that the modules are in fact the equivalent of class lectures and that students are expected to *read* the modules. All the so-called missing links and readings *are* in the modules! I suspect several of the students are using their phones instead of their computers and are just scrolling through the information without really reading anything.
To enlarge that image only slightly, it seems as if some people just expect to scroll through life, in fact.
M.
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 27, 2021, 05:21:23 AM
I suspect several of the students are using their phones instead of their computers and are just scrolling through the information without really reading anything.
To be fair, I've found that quite a few of my students don't have access to a computer at home. With so many libraries and campuses trying to limit crowds, they've been struggling to get access to computers.
"I tossed my cookies during my workout today, so I won't be in class."
While I applaud her caution, I told her that she hasn't attended any classes yet so far (we're in week 3).
Fantasy reply: You can go to the gym before 8am but you can't attend class? Maybe you should toss the class as you're tossing those cookies.
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 27, 2021, 05:21:23 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on January 26, 2021, 02:42:35 PM
This one was forwarded to a bunch of us by our Academic Dean:
I dont know if the problem is on my end but its been a full week of classes but none of the professors have contacted me for anything like a zoom call or other method of communication i dont know if im missing classes or not and i wish not to fall to far behind i wont be able to go to campus tomorrow because i am still waiting on my covid results if there is anyway you can help me please let me know
I'd love to know what Stu thought we were all doing, behind Stu's back. Or what made Stu finally twig that perhaps all of the faculty, administration, and staff were not the problem. Activate your email!
Perhaps Stu hasn't yet logged on to their online course? Or not turned on their notifications? Or waiting for their professor to add them to their Facebook account?
I'm getting ready to send an announcement to the effect that the modules are in fact the equivalent of class lectures and that students are expected to *read* the modules. All the so-called missing links and readings *are* in the modules! I suspect several of the students are using their phones instead of their computers and are just scrolling through the information without really reading anything.
Much more fundamental. New-Stu never set up a college email account. Virtually everything is linked to that, including CMS authentication.
Also, Stu never answered emails sent to a private account, nor phone calls from the Registrar.
Stu is a very, very good ghost.
Quote from: dr_codex on January 27, 2021, 09:18:53 AM
Much more fundamental. New-Stu never set up a college email account. Virtually everything is linked to that, including CMS authentication.
Also, Stu never answered emails sent to a private account, nor phone calls from the Registrar.
Stu is a very, very good ghost.
Quote
I dont know if the problem is on my end but its been a full week of classes but none of the professors have contacted me for anything like a zoom call or other method of communication i dont know if im missing classes or not and i wish not to fall to far behind i wont be able to go to campus tomorrow because i am still waiting on my covid results if there is anyway you can help me please let me know
Problem solved: It's on your end.
Email from student:
Dear <research-prof's-name> [no title just plain--my first and last name],
I am not sure about the answers to the assignment questions. Can you take a look at the assignment (attached) before the deadline and let me know if they are correct?
<student's name>
1. Am I am a kindergarten teacher?
2. What is the purpose of me setting up piazza for questions?
3. The fact that I and 2 TAs hold office hours every week does not say much, right?
Quote from: research_prof on January 27, 2021, 10:45:00 AM
Email from student:
Dear <research-prof's-name> [not title just plain--my first and last name],
I am not sure about the answers to the assignment questions. Can you take a look at the assignment (attached) before the deadline and let me know if they are correct?
<student's name>
1. Am I am a kindergarten teacher?
2. What is the purpose of me setting up piazza for questions?
3. The fact that I and 2 TAs hold office hours every week does not say much, right?
Email reply 5 minutes before the deadline:
"They're not."
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 27, 2021, 10:48:55 AM
Quote from: research_prof on January 27, 2021, 10:45:00 AM
Email from student:
Dear <research-prof's-name> [not title just plain--my first and last name],
I am not sure about the answers to the assignment questions. Can you take a look at the assignment (attached) before the deadline and let me know if they are correct?
<student's name>
1. Am I am a kindergarten teacher?
2. What is the purpose of me setting up piazza for questions?
3. The fact that I and 2 TAs hold office hours every week does not say much, right?
Email reply 5 minutes before the deadline:
"They're not."
I would not do that. I just said that we would like to see his opinion about the questions and that we will provide feedback once we look at the assignment after the deadline. I cc'd the TAs and said "if you have specific questions, please feel free to let us know".
The questions are not hard. It is just that students might need to google a bit to answer one of them. And they are not willing to even do that.
Quote from: research_prof on January 27, 2021, 10:45:00 AM
Email from student:
Dear <research-prof's-name> [no title just plain--my first and last name],
I am not sure about the answers to the assignment questions. Can you take a look at the assignment (attached) before the deadline and let me know if they are correct?
<student's name>
This is a fairly common request in my large enrollment asynchronous online GenEd science class. Because the students have little chance for feedback (ok, it is their choice not to come to office hours), I have started to provide feedback to assignments submitted the day before the due date. But we only look at those that are submitted, we will not look at ones sent to us via email, and only assignments submitted early. This is in part because I do not want students to complain that their work was marked late, since they were waiting to hear back from us regarding material sent via email. Canvas allows re-submissions, so at the very least they will be graded on their originally submitted work even if they don't upload a revised document.
Also, take it as a win that the student knows your name, even if they do not use honorifics correctly.
Quote from: arcturus on January 27, 2021, 10:56:29 AM
Quote from: research_prof on January 27, 2021, 10:45:00 AM
Email from student:
Dear <research-prof's-name> [no title just plain--my first and last name],
I am not sure about the answers to the assignment questions. Can you take a look at the assignment (attached) before the deadline and let me know if they are correct?
<student's name>
This is a fairly common request in my large enrollment asynchronous online GenEd science class. Because the students have little chance for feedback (ok, it is their choice not to come to office hours), I have started to provide feedback to assignments submitted the day before the due date. But we only look at those that are submitted, we will not look at ones sent to us via email, and only assignments submitted early. This is in part because I do not want students to complain that their work was marked late, since they were waiting to hear back from us regarding material sent via email. Canvas allows re-submissions, so at the very least they will be graded on their originally submitted work even if they don't upload a revised document.
Also, take it as a win that the student knows your name, even if they do not use honorifics correctly.
But I mean what's the point of giving feedback before the deadline? If I say it looks good and then the TAs decide to take points away, this will create a huge mess.
I believe students have enough options to talk to us:
1/ Ask to meet with us by appointment--I have told them we will try to give them same-day appointments if possible.
2/ Post specific questions on piazza--someone else posted specific questions about the assignment and they got a response within 15 minutes.
3/ Meet with us during our weekly office hours.
An assignment is meant to be an assignment and if someone meets with us we might end up giving them parts or most of the answer, but I cannot start grading assignments selectively, because in this case: (i) I need to give feedback to everyone's assignment before the deadline; and (ii) the feedback will be binding--if I do not catch an error at this point, they will come back to me later on and complain that I did not give them proper feedback. There is no way around complaints.
Quote from: research_prof on January 27, 2021, 10:45:00 AM
Email from student:
Dear <research-prof's-name> [no title just plain--my first and last name],
I am not sure about the answers to the assignment questions. Can you take a look at the assignment (attached) before the deadline and let me know if they are correct?
<student's name>
1. Am I am a kindergarten teacher?
2. What is the purpose of me setting up piazza for questions?
3. The fact that I and 2 TAs hold office hours every week does not say much, right?
My stock reply is:
Dear student,
Thank you for your email. While I do not "pre-grade" questions for students, I am happy to meet with you during office hours to discuss any particular questions you have. My advice for everyone is to make sure that they understand the [key concepts/terms/equations] in the assignment and that their answers address all parts of the questions.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 27, 2021, 11:21:24 AM
Quote from: research_prof on January 27, 2021, 10:45:00 AM
Email from student:
Dear <research-prof's-name> [no title just plain--my first and last name],
I am not sure about the answers to the assignment questions. Can you take a look at the assignment (attached) before the deadline and let me know if they are correct?
<student's name>
1. Am I am a kindergarten teacher?
2. What is the purpose of me setting up piazza for questions?
3. The fact that I and 2 TAs hold office hours every week does not say much, right?
My stock reply is:
Dear student,
Thank you for your email. While I do not "pre-grade" questions for students, I am happy to meet with you during office hours to discuss any particular questions you have. My advice for everyone is to make sure that they understand the [key concepts/terms/equations] in the assignment and that their answers address all parts of the questions.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
Good point. I tried to make it less about grading and more about seeing the point of view of the student when it comes to answering the questions. I guess probably it did not make much difference since the student would say in his evaluation "research prof is very mean—he refused to help me with my assignment".
Email from Stu after the deadline: "Hi, I'm sorry I was wondering if I could hand in the homework late because ..."
I responded to Stu reminding Stu of late submission policies (weekly assignments should be submitted by the end of the week; no late assignments as I post the correct responses), and to make sure that all subsequent assignments are submitted before the posted deadlines.
Email today about the same assignment: "Hi, I just wanted to make sure that you got my homework because I thought I submitted it earlier but it says that I still need to submit the assignment."
I'm not sure if Stu is genuinely confused, or thinks that I don't keep track of emails. I'll just have to remind Stu of the first email.
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 28, 2021, 06:07:07 AM
Email from Stu after the deadline: "Hi, I'm sorry I was wondering if I could hand in the homework late because ..."
I responded to Stu reminding Stu of late submission policies (weekly assignments should be submitted by the end of the week; no late assignments as I post the correct responses), and to make sure that all subsequent assignments are submitted before the posted deadlines.
Email today about the same assignment: "Hi, I just wanted to make sure that you got my homework because I thought I submitted it earlier but it says that I still need to submit the assignment."
I'm not sure if Stu is genuinely confused, or thinks that I don't keep track of emails. I'll just have to remind Stu of the first email.
Probably mentally checked off the assignment as "done" and didn't read your response saying it wasn't acceptable.
Excerpted:
QuoteSome of the questions in this quiz is beyond the expectation of our classmates, and it is also the first quiz.
I mean... two questions in the randomizer were particularly tricky, that's true, but not impossible. And it sucks if you got them both (this student didn't), but them's the breaks, and each one was worth 1 point out of 15. Besides, the expectations that matter here are mine!
I might be more concerned if this was the first time I was teaching this class, but it's the eighth.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 28, 2021, 08:42:29 AM
Excerpted:
QuoteSome of the questions in this quiz is beyond the expectation of our classmates, and it is also the first quiz.
I mean... two questions in the randomizer were particularly tricky, that's true, but not impossible. And it sucks if you got them both (this student didn't), but them's the breaks, and each one was worth 1 point out of 15. Besides, the expectations that matter here are mine!
I might be more concerned if this was the first time I was teaching this class, but it's the eighth.
Ah yes, the Designated Spokesperson student. They are shocked, shocked I say, that you would dare to give them a quiz they can't ace without any effort.
Dear Student,
Thank you for your email. The quizzes are intended as practice to test your skills & knowledge. The challenge level is consistent with the set learning goals and objectives of this course. If you would like to chat about how to solve any particular problem, please come to my office hours.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 28, 2021, 09:16:45 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 28, 2021, 08:42:29 AM
Excerpted:
QuoteSome of the questions in this quiz is beyond the expectation of our classmates, and it is also the first quiz.
I mean... two questions in the randomizer were particularly tricky, that's true, but not impossible. And it sucks if you got them both (this student didn't), but them's the breaks, and each one was worth 1 point out of 15. Besides, the expectations that matter here are mine!
I might be more concerned if this was the first time I was teaching this class, but it's the eighth.
Ah yes, the Designated Spokesperson student. They are shocked, shocked I say, that you would dare to give them a quiz they can't ace without any effort.
Dear Student,
Thank you for your email. The quizzes are intended as practice to test your skills & knowledge. The challenge level is consistent with the set learning goals and objectives of this course. If you would like to chat about how to solve any particular problem, please come to my office hours.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
Don't you just love hearing from the self-appointed "Designated Spokesperson"? Very often it's just the opinion of that one student or at the most, Stu and Stu's friend.
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 28, 2021, 10:16:56 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 28, 2021, 09:16:45 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 28, 2021, 08:42:29 AM
Excerpted:
QuoteSome of the questions in this quiz is beyond the expectation of our classmates, and it is also the first quiz.
I mean... two questions in the randomizer were particularly tricky, that's true, but not impossible. And it sucks if you got them both (this student didn't), but them's the breaks, and each one was worth 1 point out of 15. Besides, the expectations that matter here are mine!
I might be more concerned if this was the first time I was teaching this class, but it's the eighth.
Ah yes, the Designated Spokesperson student. They are shocked, shocked I say, that you would dare to give them a quiz they can't ace without any effort.
Dear Student,
Thank you for your email. The quizzes are intended as practice to test your skills & knowledge. The challenge level is consistent with the set learning goals and objectives of this course. If you would like to chat about how to solve any particular problem, please come to my office hours.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
Don't you just love hearing from the self-appointed "Designated Spokesperson"? Very often it's just the opinion of that one student or at the most, Stu and Stu's friend.
I have a designated spokesperson this year in one of my two-semester courses. He never fails to let me know what I'm doing wrong (everything!). So far, I have been accused of making the course harder than it needs to be, giving them too much homework, not giving them enough practice problems, giving them too many practice problems (the email with this one also included a request that I create a new, all-encompassing practice assignment the night before the final exam), and being excessively rigid and lacking in compassion because I insist that grades in the course correlate to demonstrated levels of proficiency instead of giving them the grades they want or think they deserve based on the time they have invested.
The most recent email came during winter break and included details of how I should change the course structure and the way I teach the course to make it more similar to the way the course is taught in person. You will not be surprised to learn that his description of how the course is normally taught was not even remotely accurate. He proposed allowing the class to vote because he was sure they would all agree with him.
I used to love teaching this course. He has made me hate it.
Late policy: no late work accepted without prior approval of the instructor.
Student: I know I didn't turn in last week or this week's assignment but I'll send them to you soon.
Response that I want to send: Notifying me that you are turning in late work is NOT getting prior approval from the instructor. You will not be receiving that approval.
I suppose I'll have to come up with a more polite response.
Quote from: Chemystery on January 28, 2021, 10:46:33 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 28, 2021, 10:16:56 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 28, 2021, 09:16:45 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 28, 2021, 08:42:29 AM
Excerpted:
QuoteSome of the questions in this quiz is beyond the expectation of our classmates, and it is also the first quiz.
I mean... two questions in the randomizer were particularly tricky, that's true, but not impossible. And it sucks if you got them both (this student didn't), but them's the breaks, and each one was worth 1 point out of 15. Besides, the expectations that matter here are mine!
I might be more concerned if this was the first time I was teaching this class, but it's the eighth.
Ah yes, the Designated Spokesperson student. They are shocked, shocked I say, that you would dare to give them a quiz they can't ace without any effort.
Dear Student,
Thank you for your email. The quizzes are intended as practice to test your skills & knowledge. The challenge level is consistent with the set learning goals and objectives of this course. If you would like to chat about how to solve any particular problem, please come to my office hours.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
Don't you just love hearing from the self-appointed "Designated Spokesperson"? Very often it's just the opinion of that one student or at the most, Stu and Stu's friend.
I have a designated spokesperson this year in one of my two-semester courses. He never fails to let me know what I'm doing wrong (everything!). So far, I have been accused of making the course harder than it needs to be, giving them too much homework, not giving them enough practice problems, giving them too many practice problems (the email with this one also included a request that I create a new, all-encompassing practice assignment the night before the final exam), and being excessively rigid and lacking in compassion because I insist that grades in the course correlate to demonstrated levels of proficiency instead of giving them the grades they want or think they deserve based on the time they have invested.
The most recent email came during winter break and included details of how I should change the course structure and the way I teach the course to make it more similar to the way the course is taught in person. You will not be surprised to learn that his description of how the course is normally taught was not even remotely accurate. He proposed allowing the class to vote because he was sure they would all agree with him.
I used to love teaching this course. He has made me hate it.
Better hope they pass the class so you don't have to have them again. Or if they fail, it's so damn obvious that they won't be able to convince anyone that you were unfair or biased.
Time to start saying: directions for the quiz are in the assignment instructions; the due dates for the assignments are in the syllabus; etc. Or only replying to emails that actually ask a question. For ones that don't, you could always write back "Did you have a specific question? Please clarify."
Genuine favorite:
Quote
Dear Ergative,
I'm really enjoying the [topic] module in [second-year intro course]. It has been my favorite topic thus far. I was wondering if this is a 5-week strand or if we will continue to study it for the rest of the semester. Also, is there an option to study [topic] in third year? Thanks [smiley emoji].
Awwww!
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 28, 2021, 11:58:08 AM
Quote from: Chemystery on January 28, 2021, 10:46:33 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 28, 2021, 10:16:56 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 28, 2021, 09:16:45 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 28, 2021, 08:42:29 AM
Excerpted:
QuoteSome of the questions in this quiz is beyond the expectation of our classmates, and it is also the first quiz.
I mean... two questions in the randomizer were particularly tricky, that's true, but not impossible. And it sucks if you got them both (this student didn't), but them's the breaks, and each one was worth 1 point out of 15. Besides, the expectations that matter here are mine!
I might be more concerned if this was the first time I was teaching this class, but it's the eighth.
Ah yes, the Designated Spokesperson student. They are shocked, shocked I say, that you would dare to give them a quiz they can't ace without any effort.
Dear Student,
Thank you for your email. The quizzes are intended as practice to test your skills & knowledge. The challenge level is consistent with the set learning goals and objectives of this course. If you would like to chat about how to solve any particular problem, please come to my office hours.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
Don't you just love hearing from the self-appointed "Designated Spokesperson"? Very often it's just the opinion of that one student or at the most, Stu and Stu's friend.
I have a designated spokesperson this year in one of my two-semester courses. He never fails to let me know what I'm doing wrong (everything!). So far, I have been accused of making the course harder than it needs to be, giving them too much homework, not giving them enough practice problems, giving them too many practice problems (the email with this one also included a request that I create a new, all-encompassing practice assignment the night before the final exam), and being excessively rigid and lacking in compassion because I insist that grades in the course correlate to demonstrated levels of proficiency instead of giving them the grades they want or think they deserve based on the time they have invested.
The most recent email came during winter break and included details of how I should change the course structure and the way I teach the course to make it more similar to the way the course is taught in person. You will not be surprised to learn that his description of how the course is normally taught was not even remotely accurate. He proposed allowing the class to vote because he was sure they would all agree with him.
I used to love teaching this course. He has made me hate it.
Better hope they pass the class so you don't have to have them again. Or if they fail, it's so damn obvious that they won't be able to convince anyone that you were unfair or biased.
Time to start saying: directions for the quiz are in the assignment instructions; the due dates for the assignments are in the syllabus; etc. Or only replying to emails that actually ask a question. For ones that don't, you could always write back "Did you have a specific question? Please clarify."
Chemystery, I wouldn't engage with this student either. You're in charge of designing and teaching the course. If your student wants to tell you how to teach the course, you could tell him to address his concerns with your chair.
I'm assuming that you are young and female. When you respond to emails such as the ones from your student, the student sees this as the first step in a negotiation.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 28, 2021, 11:58:08 AM
Quote from: Chemystery on January 28, 2021, 10:46:33 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 28, 2021, 10:16:56 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 28, 2021, 09:16:45 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 28, 2021, 08:42:29 AM
Excerpted:
QuoteSome of the questions in this quiz is beyond the expectation of our classmates, and it is also the first quiz.
I mean... two questions in the randomizer were particularly tricky, that's true, but not impossible. And it sucks if you got them both (this student didn't), but them's the breaks, and each one was worth 1 point out of 15. Besides, the expectations that matter here are mine!
I might be more concerned if this was the first time I was teaching this class, but it's the eighth.
Ah yes, the Designated Spokesperson student. They are shocked, shocked I say, that you would dare to give them a quiz they can't ace without any effort.
Dear Student,
Thank you for your email. The quizzes are intended as practice to test your skills & knowledge. The challenge level is consistent with the set learning goals and objectives of this course. If you would like to chat about how to solve any particular problem, please come to my office hours.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
Don't you just love hearing from the self-appointed "Designated Spokesperson"? Very often it's just the opinion of that one student or at the most, Stu and Stu's friend.
I have a designated spokesperson this year in one of my two-semester courses. He never fails to let me know what I'm doing wrong (everything!). So far, I have been accused of making the course harder than it needs to be, giving them too much homework, not giving them enough practice problems, giving them too many practice problems (the email with this one also included a request that I create a new, all-encompassing practice assignment the night before the final exam), and being excessively rigid and lacking in compassion because I insist that grades in the course correlate to demonstrated levels of proficiency instead of giving them the grades they want or think they deserve based on the time they have invested.
The most recent email came during winter break and included details of how I should change the course structure and the way I teach the course to make it more similar to the way the course is taught in person. You will not be surprised to learn that his description of how the course is normally taught was not even remotely accurate. He proposed allowing the class to vote because he was sure they would all agree with him.
I used to love teaching this course. He has made me hate it.
Better hope they pass the class so you don't have to have them again. Or if they fail, it's so damn obvious that they won't be able to convince anyone that you were unfair or biased.
Time to start saying: directions for the quiz are in the assignment instructions; the due dates for the assignments are in the syllabus; etc. Or only replying to emails that actually ask a question. For ones that don't, you could always write back "Did you have a specific question? Please clarify."
During my first time teaching an American Lit. summer course and only my second semester as a new adjunct, I had a student stand up (and I mean literally stand up) on the 2nd day of class and rail at me for a good three or four minutes about how the course had too much reading, the syllabus policies weren't fair, and that "everyone in the class" wanted me to make significant changes to the course immediately (everything had come from a master syllabus I had been given by the division). I didn't know no better, and I said, "Huh. Well, that's the class, and your opinion about how the course will work doesn't really matter. I mean, jeez, get a refund if you're this unhappy already." I may have laughed at him a little. He stormed out very dramatically, and he didn't come back. Never heard anything from anybody at the College about it.
Some days I miss my younger, ignorant, unfiltered self who didn't have a real job or a career to lose.
Quote from: fishbrains on January 28, 2021, 02:08:39 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 28, 2021, 11:58:08 AM
Quote from: Chemystery on January 28, 2021, 10:46:33 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 28, 2021, 10:16:56 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 28, 2021, 09:16:45 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 28, 2021, 08:42:29 AM
Excerpted:
QuoteSome of the questions in this quiz is beyond the expectation of our classmates, and it is also the first quiz.
I mean... two questions in the randomizer were particularly tricky, that's true, but not impossible. And it sucks if you got them both (this student didn't), but them's the breaks, and each one was worth 1 point out of 15. Besides, the expectations that matter here are mine!
I might be more concerned if this was the first time I was teaching this class, but it's the eighth.
Ah yes, the Designated Spokesperson student. They are shocked, shocked I say, that you would dare to give them a quiz they can't ace without any effort.
Dear Student,
Thank you for your email. The quizzes are intended as practice to test your skills & knowledge. The challenge level is consistent with the set learning goals and objectives of this course. If you would like to chat about how to solve any particular problem, please come to my office hours.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
Don't you just love hearing from the self-appointed "Designated Spokesperson"? Very often it's just the opinion of that one student or at the most, Stu and Stu's friend.
I have a designated spokesperson this year in one of my two-semester courses. He never fails to let me know what I'm doing wrong (everything!). So far, I have been accused of making the course harder than it needs to be, giving them too much homework, not giving them enough practice problems, giving them too many practice problems (the email with this one also included a request that I create a new, all-encompassing practice assignment the night before the final exam), and being excessively rigid and lacking in compassion because I insist that grades in the course correlate to demonstrated levels of proficiency instead of giving them the grades they want or think they deserve based on the time they have invested.
The most recent email came during winter break and included details of how I should change the course structure and the way I teach the course to make it more similar to the way the course is taught in person. You will not be surprised to learn that his description of how the course is normally taught was not even remotely accurate. He proposed allowing the class to vote because he was sure they would all agree with him.
I used to love teaching this course. He has made me hate it.
Better hope they pass the class so you don't have to have them again. Or if they fail, it's so damn obvious that they won't be able to convince anyone that you were unfair or biased.
Time to start saying: directions for the quiz are in the assignment instructions; the due dates for the assignments are in the syllabus; etc. Or only replying to emails that actually ask a question. For ones that don't, you could always write back "Did you have a specific question? Please clarify."
During my first time teaching an American Lit. summer course and only my second semester as a new adjunct, I had a student stand up (and I mean literally stand up) on the 2nd day of class and rail at me for a good three or four minutes about how the course had too much reading, the syllabus policies weren't fair, and that "everyone in the class" wanted me to make significant changes to the course immediately (everything had come from a master syllabus I had been given by the division). I didn't know no better, and I said, "Huh. Well, that's the class, and your opinion about how the course will work doesn't really matter. I mean, jeez, get a refund if you're this unhappy already." I may have laughed at him a little. He stormed out very dramatically, and he didn't come back. Never heard anything from anybody at the College about it.
Some days I miss my younger, ignorant, unfiltered self who didn't have a real job or a career to lose.
Not sure how many years back that happened, but I guess today someone could very well get fired for saying something like that.
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 28, 2021, 01:55:19 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 28, 2021, 11:58:08 AM
Quote from: Chemystery on January 28, 2021, 10:46:33 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 28, 2021, 10:16:56 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 28, 2021, 09:16:45 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 28, 2021, 08:42:29 AM
Excerpted:
QuoteSome of the questions in this quiz is beyond the expectation of our classmates, and it is also the first quiz.
I mean... two questions in the randomizer were particularly tricky, that's true, but not impossible. And it sucks if you got them both (this student didn't), but them's the breaks, and each one was worth 1 point out of 15. Besides, the expectations that matter here are mine!
I might be more concerned if this was the first time I was teaching this class, but it's the eighth.
Ah yes, the Designated Spokesperson student. They are shocked, shocked I say, that you would dare to give them a quiz they can't ace without any effort.
Dear Student,
Thank you for your email. The quizzes are intended as practice to test your skills & knowledge. The challenge level is consistent with the set learning goals and objectives of this course. If you would like to chat about how to solve any particular problem, please come to my office hours.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
Don't you just love hearing from the self-appointed "Designated Spokesperson"? Very often it's just the opinion of that one student or at the most, Stu and Stu's friend.
I have a designated spokesperson this year in one of my two-semester courses. He never fails to let me know what I'm doing wrong (everything!). So far, I have been accused of making the course harder than it needs to be, giving them too much homework, not giving them enough practice problems, giving them too many practice problems (the email with this one also included a request that I create a new, all-encompassing practice assignment the night before the final exam), and being excessively rigid and lacking in compassion because I insist that grades in the course correlate to demonstrated levels of proficiency instead of giving them the grades they want or think they deserve based on the time they have invested.
The most recent email came during winter break and included details of how I should change the course structure and the way I teach the course to make it more similar to the way the course is taught in person. You will not be surprised to learn that his description of how the course is normally taught was not even remotely accurate. He proposed allowing the class to vote because he was sure they would all agree with him.
I used to love teaching this course. He has made me hate it.
Better hope they pass the class so you don't have to have them again. Or if they fail, it's so damn obvious that they won't be able to convince anyone that you were unfair or biased.
Time to start saying: directions for the quiz are in the assignment instructions; the due dates for the assignments are in the syllabus; etc. Or only replying to emails that actually ask a question. For ones that don't, you could always write back "Did you have a specific question? Please clarify."
Chemystery, I wouldn't engage with this student either. You're in charge of designing and teaching the course. If your student wants to tell you how to teach the course, you could tell him to address his concerns with your chair.
I'm assuming that you are young and female. When you respond to emails such as the ones from your student, the student sees this as the first step in a negotiation.
Female, but not young. Also tenured. Still, my direction from my dean is that I must continue to respond to the student supportively. To be clear, the dean is not suggesting I should do any of the things the student asks, just that I should smother him with helpfulness. Because retention. So I am only able to fantasize about ignoring his emails or sending a response that reads "To save us both time, I will just assume that you believe everything I do is wrong. There is no need to email me updates. I will no longer respond to such emails."
I had a freshie class once that decided (at least a self-appointed leader did) that the class was too hard, and not appropriate as an introductory course to the major.
After a longish pause, I said "You are all freshman in your very first college science course. How the hell would YOU know what is appropriate for this course? I'll stick with what the entire department decided the class should contain, thanks".
Self-appointed stormed out.
The next day he showed up at the department demanding to speak with the Chair. So the secretary showed him in...to me.
Short meeting.
Bada-bing!
M.
Quote from: research_prof on January 28, 2021, 02:13:31 PM
Quote from: fishbrains on January 28, 2021, 02:08:39 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 28, 2021, 11:58:08 AM
Quote from: Chemystery on January 28, 2021, 10:46:33 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 28, 2021, 10:16:56 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 28, 2021, 09:16:45 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 28, 2021, 08:42:29 AM
Excerpted:
QuoteSome of the questions in this quiz is beyond the expectation of our classmates, and it is also the first quiz.
I mean... two questions in the randomizer were particularly tricky, that's true, but not impossible. And it sucks if you got them both (this student didn't), but them's the breaks, and each one was worth 1 point out of 15. Besides, the expectations that matter here are mine!
I might be more concerned if this was the first time I was teaching this class, but it's the eighth.
Ah yes, the Designated Spokesperson student. They are shocked, shocked I say, that you would dare to give them a quiz they can't ace without any effort.
Dear Student,
Thank you for your email. The quizzes are intended as practice to test your skills & knowledge. The challenge level is consistent with the set learning goals and objectives of this course. If you would like to chat about how to solve any particular problem, please come to my office hours.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
Don't you just love hearing from the self-appointed "Designated Spokesperson"? Very often it's just the opinion of that one student or at the most, Stu and Stu's friend.
I have a designated spokesperson this year in one of my two-semester courses. He never fails to let me know what I'm doing wrong (everything!). So far, I have been accused of making the course harder than it needs to be, giving them too much homework, not giving them enough practice problems, giving them too many practice problems (the email with this one also included a request that I create a new, all-encompassing practice assignment the night before the final exam), and being excessively rigid and lacking in compassion because I insist that grades in the course correlate to demonstrated levels of proficiency instead of giving them the grades they want or think they deserve based on the time they have invested.
The most recent email came during winter break and included details of how I should change the course structure and the way I teach the course to make it more similar to the way the course is taught in person. You will not be surprised to learn that his description of how the course is normally taught was not even remotely accurate. He proposed allowing the class to vote because he was sure they would all agree with him.
I used to love teaching this course. He has made me hate it.
Better hope they pass the class so you don't have to have them again. Or if they fail, it's so damn obvious that they won't be able to convince anyone that you were unfair or biased.
Time to start saying: directions for the quiz are in the assignment instructions; the due dates for the assignments are in the syllabus; etc. Or only replying to emails that actually ask a question. For ones that don't, you could always write back "Did you have a specific question? Please clarify."
During my first time teaching an American Lit. summer course and only my second semester as a new adjunct, I had a student stand up (and I mean literally stand up) on the 2nd day of class and rail at me for a good three or four minutes about how the course had too much reading, the syllabus policies weren't fair, and that "everyone in the class" wanted me to make significant changes to the course immediately (everything had come from a master syllabus I had been given by the division). I didn't know no better, and I said, "Huh. Well, that's the class, and your opinion about how the course will work doesn't really matter. I mean, jeez, get a refund if you're this unhappy already." I may have laughed at him a little. He stormed out very dramatically, and he didn't come back. Never heard anything from anybody at the College about it.
Some days I miss my younger, ignorant, unfiltered self who didn't have a real job or a career to lose.
Not sure how many years back that happened, but I guess today someone could very well get fired for saying something like that.
It was a different millennium. For sure.
Today, I'd give an extended lecture on gen-ed learning outcomes, curriculum development processes, required alignment with division syllabi, and on-and-on. Basically, I'd say the same thing to the student, but couch it all in enough jargon and gobbledygook to keep myself out of trouble. Gotta find our fun where we can.
FishProf, the look on your student's face, as the old Mastercard commercial would say, must have been priceless.
fishbrains, I admire your response. I once had to tell a spokes-student that the class wasn't a democracy. This was a writing course, one of many sections, the syllabus and grading policies of which had to conform to departmental guidelines. The heavily weighted final essay would be scored by two colleagues, so I had nip rebellion in the bud.
Chemystery, my sympathies. Support, indeed. Bah humbug.
Stu who doesn't have a clue about what to do for this course and keeps emailing me instead of reading the modules, directions for the assignments, and the uploaded handouts.
"Also I was confused on the assignment. I see the prompts where it says to discuss one of the [topics] [verb here] by [X]. But I don't see the question to respond to." Stu, all you have to do is discuss one of the topics.
I don't know how to respond to this student. Stu has to read. There is no substitute for reading the information in the modules and the assignment directions. Stu is majoring in one of the professions and needs to earn a B in this course to stay in Stu's program. It's too early for midterm warnings. Stu is thoroughly unprepared for hu's major.
I'll have to come up with a plan for this student.
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 29, 2021, 05:10:56 AM
Stu who doesn't have a clue about what to do for this course and keeps emailing me instead of reading the modules, directions for the assignments, and the uploaded handouts.
"Also I was confused on the assignment. I see the prompts where it says to discuss one of the [topics] [verb here] by [X]. But I don't see the question to respond to." Stu, all you have to do is discuss one of the topics.
I don't know how to respond to this student. Stu has to read. There is no substitute for reading the information in the modules and the assignment directions. Stu is majoring in one of the professions and needs to earn a B in this course to stay in Stu's program. It's too early for midterm warnings. Stu is thoroughly unprepared for hu's major.
I'll have to come up with a plan for this student.
I have a discussion section in all my online courses where students can ask questions about the course and what they have to do. I tell students that they should not email me questions: they need to ask questions in the discussion forum. Then I or other students can answer questions, I can provide links to videos about how to submit work etc, and I suspect that students may be a little more cautious about not asking stupid questions. I think it has cut down on the number of clueless emails I get.
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 29, 2021, 05:10:56 AM
Stu who doesn't have a clue about what to do for this course and keeps emailing me instead of reading the modules, directions for the assignments, and the uploaded handouts.
"Also I was confused on the assignment. I see the prompts where it says to discuss one of the [topics] [verb here] by [X]. But I don't see the question to respond to." Stu, all you have to do is discuss one of the topics.
I don't know how to respond to this student. Stu has to read. There is no substitute for reading the information in the modules and the assignment directions. Stu is majoring in one of the professions and needs to earn a B in this course to stay in Stu's program. It's too early for midterm warnings. Stu is thoroughly unprepared for hu's major.
I'll have to come up with a plan for this student.
Some students are so used to the "plug and chug" model of education that "discuss your own interpretation" kinda blows their mind. I basically spend a little quality time with that student. For example, reframe the instruction "discuss" as a series of questions for that student. What do you think of X? Why might others disagree?
Quote from: ergative on January 28, 2021, 12:10:50 PM
Genuine favorite:
Quote
Dear Ergative,
I'm really enjoying the [topic] module in [second-year intro course]. It has been my favorite topic thus far. I was wondering if this is a 5-week strand or if we will continue to study it for the rest of the semester. Also, is there an option to study [topic] in third year? Thanks [smiley emoji].
Awwww!
Congratulations on really connecting with a student!
Quote from: Chemystery on January 28, 2021, 04:11:55 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 28, 2021, 01:55:19 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 28, 2021, 11:58:08 AM
Quote from: Chemystery on January 28, 2021, 10:46:33 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 28, 2021, 10:16:56 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 28, 2021, 09:16:45 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 28, 2021, 08:42:29 AM
Excerpted:
QuoteSome of the questions in this quiz is beyond the expectation of our classmates, and it is also the first quiz.
I mean... two questions in the randomizer were particularly tricky, that's true, but not impossible. And it sucks if you got them both (this student didn't), but them's the breaks, and each one was worth 1 point out of 15. Besides, the expectations that matter here are mine!
I might be more concerned if this was the first time I was teaching this class, but it's the eighth.
Ah yes, the Designated Spokesperson student. They are shocked, shocked I say, that you would dare to give them a quiz they can't ace without any effort.
Dear Student,
Thank you for your email. The quizzes are intended as practice to test your skills & knowledge. The challenge level is consistent with the set learning goals and objectives of this course. If you would like to chat about how to solve any particular problem, please come to my office hours.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
Don't you just love hearing from the self-appointed "Designated Spokesperson"? Very often it's just the opinion of that one student or at the most, Stu and Stu's friend.
I have a designated spokesperson this year in one of my two-semester courses. He never fails to let me know what I'm doing wrong (everything!). So far, I have been accused of making the course harder than it needs to be, giving them too much homework, not giving them enough practice problems, giving them too many practice problems (the email with this one also included a request that I create a new, all-encompassing practice assignment the night before the final exam), and being excessively rigid and lacking in compassion because I insist that grades in the course correlate to demonstrated levels of proficiency instead of giving them the grades they want or think they deserve based on the time they have invested.
The most recent email came during winter break and included details of how I should change the course structure and the way I teach the course to make it more similar to the way the course is taught in person. You will not be surprised to learn that his description of how the course is normally taught was not even remotely accurate. He proposed allowing the class to vote because he was sure they would all agree with him.
I used to love teaching this course. He has made me hate it.
Better hope they pass the class so you don't have to have them again. Or if they fail, it's so damn obvious that they won't be able to convince anyone that you were unfair or biased.
Time to start saying: directions for the quiz are in the assignment instructions; the due dates for the assignments are in the syllabus; etc. Or only replying to emails that actually ask a question. For ones that don't, you could always write back "Did you have a specific question? Please clarify."
Chemystery, I wouldn't engage with this student either. You're in charge of designing and teaching the course. If your student wants to tell you how to teach the course, you could tell him to address his concerns with your chair.
I'm assuming that you are young and female. When you respond to emails such as the ones from your student, the student sees this as the first step in a negotiation.
Female, but not young. Also tenured. Still, my direction from my dean is that I must continue to respond to the student supportively. To be clear, the dean is not suggesting I should do any of the things the student asks, just that I should smother him with helpfulness. Because retention. So I am only able to fantasize about ignoring his emails or sending a response that reads "To save us both time, I will just assume that you believe everything I do is wrong. There is no need to email me updates. I will no longer respond to such emails."
Ugh. I officially dislike your department chair (and I've had that sort of chair).
Maybe treat every email as an opportunity to ooze helpfulness and say things like "Many students have trouble figuring out how to approach this material. I'm happy to chat with you about pedagogically-sound study methods during my office hours."
Or "If you need assistance in determining how to prioritize your studies, the Student Help Center is free and available to all students."
"Would you like to come to my office hours to discuss how to best make use of the suggested practice problems?"
Go for a slightly-baffled, very friendly tone.
Quote from: downer on January 29, 2021, 06:34:10 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 29, 2021, 05:10:56 AM
Stu who doesn't have a clue about what to do for this course and keeps emailing me instead of reading the modules, directions for the assignments, and the uploaded handouts.
"Also I was confused on the assignment. I see the prompts where it says to discuss one of the [topics] [verb here] by [X]. But I don't see the question to respond to." Stu, all you have to do is discuss one of the topics.
I don't know how to respond to this student. Stu has to read. There is no substitute for reading the information in the modules and the assignment directions. Stu is majoring in one of the professions and needs to earn a B in this course to stay in Stu's program. It's too early for midterm warnings. Stu is thoroughly unprepared for hu's major.
I'll have to come up with a plan for this student.
I have a discussion section in all my online courses where students can ask questions about the course and what they have to do. I tell students that they should not email me questions: they need to ask questions in the discussion forum. Then I or other students can answer questions, I can provide links to videos about how to submit work etc, and I suspect that students may be a little more cautious about not asking stupid questions. I think it has cut down on the number of clueless emails I get.
Stu is genuinely confused as Stu hasn't read the modules or completed most of the assignments as evident from Stu's assignments and emails, including one that Stu sent after the lone quoted above. I'm going to wait until 5 PM to see if Stu completed the assignments and then send Stu a bulleted list of things to do so that Stu knows how to keep up with the readings and assignments. The modules have links to topics on how to submit assignments on Canvas, how to read the feedback and comments on their assignments, and a bunch of other topics. The modules have also examples of responses to the assignments.
I've been teaching this course for several semesters now, and the weekly discussion board responses (based on the readings and graded) are quite popular. These assignments have always been a requirement, even pre-pandemic, and students usually post as soon as I open up the discussion board for the week. This semester though, there are students who don't read the directions and have been responding to their classmates by merely stating that they agree with so-and-so, despite having access to examples of responses that earned full credit. Needless to say, they haven't read the information in the modules or the uploaded handouts and other documents.
Quote
Posted by: ciao_yall
« on: Today at 07:41:36 AM »Insert Quote
Quote from: Langue_doc on Today at 05:10:56 AM
Stu who doesn't have a clue about what to do for this course and keeps emailing me instead of reading the modules, directions for the assignments, and the uploaded handouts.
"Also I was confused on the assignment. I see the prompts where it says to discuss one of the [topics] [verb here] by [X]. But I don't see the question to respond to." Stu, all you have to do is discuss one of the topics.
I don't know how to respond to this student. Stu has to read. There is no substitute for reading the information in the modules and the assignment directions. Stu is majoring in one of the professions and needs to earn a B in this course to stay in Stu's program. It's too early for midterm warnings. Stu is thoroughly unprepared for hu's major.
I'll have to come up with a plan for this student.
Some students are so used to the "plug and chug" model of education that "discuss your own interpretation" kinda blows their mind. I basically spend a little quality time with that student. For example, reframe the instruction "discuss" as a series of questions for that student. What do you think of X? Why might others disagree?
This student has to read the modules. I did think of scheduling a meeting but no amount of my talking is going to help Stu unless Stu has read the modules. Students have already discussed other questions on the discussion board. Stu should be reading these and the model responses instead of scrolling through the assignments and expecting to understand the course content through osmosis. This is a course where occasionally students will say "Oh, but this is only [Course]. I won't be spending much time on it as my other courses are far more important." I've been frustrated with this student as Stu emails me every day, and occasionally sends a second email on the same topic. Answers to all the questions in the emails can be found by just scanning the modules.
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 29, 2021, 01:55:22 PM
Quote from: downer on January 29, 2021, 06:34:10 AM
[quote author=Langue_doc
This student has to read the modules. I did think of scheduling a meeting but no amount of my talking is going to help Stu unless Stu has read the modules. Students have already discussed other questions on the discussion board. Stu should be reading these and the model responses instead of scrolling through the assignments and expecting to understand the course content through osmosis. This is a course where occasionally students will say "Oh, but this is only [Course]. I won't be spending much time on it as my other courses are far more important." I've been frustrated with this student as Stu emails me every day, and occasionally sends a second email on the same topic. Answers to all the questions in the emails can be found by just scanning the modules.
Emailing constantly, but also not doing any of the reading is a weird combination. I frequently have students who send emails right before something is due where they try to convince me that they are completely confused about the whole thing, and it must be my fault. That's just some combination of self deception and deflection.
However, this seems like a student who isn't able to follow instructions or grasp what's going on. Maybe a bigger picture conversation is called for?
From an advisee, who also addressed me by my first name:
"Am I right to assume it will be the same as last term - where we are taught the modules and then given assignments based on one the topics we have learnt? So, is this term essentially the same as last term?"
Um, yes, you take a class and there will be a test. WTF.
^ Langued'oc....
Yes, and "making a plan" for all that intervention sounds more like trying to chew up and digest the instructions for the student.
F2F (or Zoom, safer) and lay-it-on-the-line, "I'm not your mother pelican" would be a simpler and more honest way to move this one along to maturity...
M.
Quote from: mamselle on January 31, 2021, 07:47:32 AM
^ Langued'oc....
Yes, and "making a plan" for all that intervention sounds more like trying to chew up and digest the instructions for the student.
F2F (or Zoom, safer) and lay-it-on-the-line, "I'm not your mother pelican" would be a simpler and more honest way to move this one along to maturity...
M.
Yes.
I typically couch responses to students with this issue by saying something like, "from your questions, I'm concerned that you haven't read the [relevant] modules. Please review those, let me know what you think you're supposed to do from there, and then I can address any additional questions you have." Most of the time, the student reads the relevant module/assignment instructions/whatever and successfully completes the task without further need of assistance.
I've got 170+ students this semester, and magically, the vast majority of them seem to know to read and follow instructions.
Quote from: Caracal on January 31, 2021, 06:49:06 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 29, 2021, 01:55:22 PM
Quote from: downer on January 29, 2021, 06:34:10 AM
[quote author=Langue_doc
This student has to read the modules. I did think of scheduling a meeting but no amount of my talking is going to help Stu unless Stu has read the modules. Students have already discussed other questions on the discussion board. Stu should be reading these and the model responses instead of scrolling through the assignments and expecting to understand the course content through osmosis. This is a course where occasionally students will say "Oh, but this is only [Course]. I won't be spending much time on it as my other courses are far more important." I've been frustrated with this student as Stu emails me every day, and occasionally sends a second email on the same topic. Answers to all the questions in the emails can be found by just scanning the modules.
Emailing constantly, but also not doing any of the reading is a weird combination. I frequently have students who send emails right before something is due where they try to convince me that they are completely confused about the whole thing, and it must be my fault. That's just some combination of self deception and deflection.
However, this seems like a student who isn't able to follow instructions or grasp what's going on. Maybe a bigger picture conversation is called for?
Agreed on the bigger picture conversation. Stu is not understanding directions that clearly state that there are X number of steps and list each step. Office hours for this class aren't until later this week, so I'll be emailing Stu a bulleted list of things to do. Stu completed only one of the three steps for one of the assignments and appears to have no intention of reading classmates' responses.
Quote
Posted by: histchick
« on: Today at 11:53:33 AM »Insert Quote
Quote from: mamselle on Today at 07:47:32 AM
^ Langued'oc....
Yes, and "making a plan" for all that intervention sounds more like trying to chew up and digest the instructions for the student.
F2F (or Zoom, safer) and lay-it-on-the-line, "I'm not your mother pelican" would be a simpler and more honest way to move this one along to maturity...
M.
Yes.
I typically couch responses to students with this issue by saying something like, "from your questions, I'm concerned that you haven't read the [relevant] modules. Please review those, let me know what you think you're supposed to do from there, and then I can address any additional questions you have." Most of the time, the student reads the relevant module/assignment instructions/whatever and successfully completes the task without further need of assistance.
I've got 170+ students this semester, and magically, the vast majority of them seem to know to read and follow instructions.
Mamselle, I am going to be blunt with this one. No chewing and masticating food for this baby as Stu needs to do hu's own chewing to pass the course. I also use histick's "concern" statement in my emails. The modules contain PDFs of readings, examples of model assignments, numerous short handouts that students have found useful, and also links to specific topics and resources. Stu is most likely scrolling through the information instead of studying it.
I'll have to remind the class to post all questions on the Course Discussion Board. There are two emails today wondering where to find the information about finding OED in the library database. This information is in at least three separate places!
At least five students are getting the "I'm concerned about your progress in this course..." email that includes a list of study skills. This list which reminds students to budget X number of hours a week, to use a computer and not their phone, to read the modules, to read the directions for each assignment, to use the formatted template, etc. is also in three locations on Canvas. It's going to be a "Come to Jesus" email especially for this particular student rather than a "holding Stu's hand" email.
I usually have two or at the most three lost students in this course. This semester, there seems to be a disproportionate number of lost students.
Thanks, all, for your suggestions.
Double post: the quote function seems to have gone berserk in the above--tried to fix it, but had to give up.
Yet another one from another student sent at 6:30 PM on Saturday:
"I am having some trouble looking up the definitions of the words in the Oxford English Dictionary. I can't seem to find where I need to look up the word."
Stu, how about typing the word in the large box, and clicking on "GO" (in a nice red box) on the right?
Another one from another student sent a few minutes prior to the one above:
"Is there any way you can send the proper example of what you expect on the vocab, the ones that you put in the assignment description shows both wrong ways and not to have in our vocab assignment. I just want to see the proper way to have it in our assignment."
The directions for this assignment are very clear and include two examples submitted by students from a previous course. Students who completed this assignment earned full credit.
Students, you were required to look up the meanings of the words in your reading before completing the two other assignments.
Langue_doc: I think we have the same students!! I'm always glad of the Outlook delay send function (no matter when they wrote to me, they're not getting a reply til 9am Monday).
Quote from: bacardiandlime on January 31, 2021, 02:22:00 PM
Langue_doc: I think we have the same students!! I'm always glad of the Outlook delay send function (no matter when they wrote to me, they're not getting a reply til 9am Monday).
bacardiandlime, you're much more considerate than me. Mine go out at 8 in the morning, Monday through Friday. No emails over the weekend. Students with real concerns get an immediate response though. Your moniker reminded me that I need a drink.
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 31, 2021, 02:49:02 PM
Quote from: bacardiandlime on January 31, 2021, 02:22:00 PM
Langue_doc: I think we have the same students!! I'm always glad of the Outlook delay send function (no matter when they wrote to me, they're not getting a reply til 9am Monday).
bacardiandlime, you're much more considerate than me. Mine go out at 8 in the morning. Students with real concerns get an immediate response though. Your moniker reminded me that I need a drink.
Lol. Nobody is getting an email from me at the weekend.
Quote from: bacardiandlime on January 31, 2021, 03:26:49 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 31, 2021, 02:49:02 PM
Quote from: bacardiandlime on January 31, 2021, 02:22:00 PM
Langue_doc: I think we have the same students!! I'm always glad of the Outlook delay send function (no matter when they wrote to me, they're not getting a reply til 9am Monday).
bacardiandlime, you're much more considerate than me. Mine go out at 8 in the morning. Students with real concerns get an immediate response though. Your moniker reminded me that I need a drink.
Lol. Nobody is getting an email from me at the weekend.
Envious. My school requires me to respond to students within 24 hours. I often fantasize about turning my email off for a whole weekend and wonder if I'd get caught.
Quote from: Charlotte on January 31, 2021, 04:02:09 PMEnvious. My school requires me to respond to students within 24 hours. I often fantasize about turning my email off for a whole weekend and wonder if I'd get caught.
Seriously? Even on a weekend? What kind of institution do you work at?
Quote from: mleok on January 31, 2021, 05:13:40 PM
Quote from: Charlotte on January 31, 2021, 04:02:09 PMEnvious. My school requires me to respond to students within 24 hours. I often fantasize about turning my email off for a whole weekend and wonder if I'd get caught.
Seriously? Even on a weekend? What kind of institution do you work at?
Yes, including weekends. I work full time at a community college and adjunct for a university. Both places require me to respond to "any manner of communication" from students within 24 hours.
Quote from: mleok on January 31, 2021, 05:13:40 PM
Quote from: Charlotte on January 31, 2021, 04:02:09 PMEnvious. My school requires me to respond to students within 24 hours. I often fantasize about turning my email off for a whole weekend and wonder if I'd get caught.
Seriously? Even on a weekend? What kind of institution do you work at?
My syllabus states that I respond to emails within 24 hours, M-F. I don't respond to emails on holidays.
My sympathies, Charlotte.Couldn't you use the religious observant excuse for not checking your emails on Sundays?
Student in asynchronous class emails me telling me that they can't learn the topic asychronously so can I include some synchronous lectures?
No, I reply. I suggest they consider dropping the class.
Quote from: downer on February 01, 2021, 04:38:32 AM
Student in asynchronous class emails me telling me that they can't learn the topic asychronously so can I include some synchronous lectures?
No, I reply. I suggest they consider dropping the class.
Have these people never learned
anything from reading a book? (Or maybe they never
have read a book.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 01, 2021, 05:43:05 AM
Quote from: downer on February 01, 2021, 04:38:32 AM
Student in asynchronous class emails me telling me that they can't learn the topic asychronously so can I include some synchronous lectures?
No, I reply. I suggest they consider dropping the class.
Have these people never learned anything from reading a book? (Or maybe they never have read a book.)
This is how I feel when people talk about flipped classrooms and videos for students to watch in their own time, and then they come to class prepared to do activities based on the material presented in the videos. Isn't that what a textbook used to be for?
Quote from: ergative on February 01, 2021, 06:04:44 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 01, 2021, 05:43:05 AM
Quote from: downer on February 01, 2021, 04:38:32 AM
Student in asynchronous class emails me telling me that they can't learn the topic asychronously so can I include some synchronous lectures?
No, I reply. I suggest they consider dropping the class.
Have these people never learned anything from reading a book? (Or maybe they never have read a book.)
This is how I feel when people talk about flipped classrooms and videos for students to watch in their own time, and then they come to class prepared to do activities based on the material presented in the videos. Isn't that what a textbook used to be for?
No, the videos replace the lectures, not the textbook (there is generally still also a textbook). Class time is used for discussion and what would otherwise be homework (that's the "flipped" part).
Quote from: Puget on February 01, 2021, 06:07:06 AM
Quote from: ergative on February 01, 2021, 06:04:44 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 01, 2021, 05:43:05 AM
Quote from: downer on February 01, 2021, 04:38:32 AM
Student in asynchronous class emails me telling me that they can't learn the topic asychronously so can I include some synchronous lectures?
No, I reply. I suggest they consider dropping the class.
Have these people never learned anything from reading a book? (Or maybe they never have read a book.)
This is how I feel when people talk about flipped classrooms and videos for students to watch in their own time, and then they come to class prepared to do activities based on the material presented in the videos. Isn't that what a textbook used to be for?
No, the videos replace the lectures, not the textbook (there is generally still also a textbook). Class time is used for discussion and what would otherwise be homework (that's the "flipped" part).
To put it another way, in a "normal" classroom, the instruction is (in principle) interactive (i.e lecture), and the student practice is done in solitude (i.e homework). In a "flipped" classrom, the instruction is done in solitude (videos or readings), and the student practice is interactive (discussions, tutorials, etc.)
As a student, I had textbooks that I never opened since the homework didn't come out of them, and I got everything from the lectures. However, for all kinds of non-school topics I've learned everything from reading on my own.
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 31, 2021, 01:38:19 PM
I usually have two or at the most three lost students in this course. This semester, there seems to be a disproportionate number of lost students.
FWIW, I saw a MASSIVE increase in the number of lost students last fall, and anecdotally a lot of my friends saw the same.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 01, 2021, 06:25:27 AM
To put it another way, in a "normal" classroom, the instruction is (in principle) interactive (i.e lecture), and the student practice is done in solitude (i.e homework). In a "flipped" classrom, the instruction is done in solitude (videos or readings), and the student practice is interactive (discussions, tutorials, etc.)
The model only really applies to STEM, language and some social science disciplines. It really doesn't usually make sense in the context of humanities classes where students always do the reading outside of class.
Quote from: downer on February 01, 2021, 04:38:32 AM
Student in asynchronous class emails me telling me that they can't learn the topic asychronously so can I include some synchronous lectures?
No, I reply. I suggest they consider dropping the class.
I think an alternative reply would be: You are welcome to come to office hours to discuss any of the material. My office hours and zoom link are posted in the LMS. I look forward to seeing you on [Friday].
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 31, 2021, 01:40:40 PM
Double post: the quote function seems to have gone berserk in the above--tried to fix it, but had to give up.
Another one from another student sent [around 6 PM on Saturday]:
"Is there any way you can send the proper example of what you expect on the vocab, the ones that you put in the assignment description shows both wrong ways and not to have in our vocab assignment. I just want to see the proper way to have it in our assignment."
The directions for this assignment are very clear and include two examples submitted by students from a previous course. Students who completed this assignment earned full credit.
Students, you were required to look up the meanings of the words in your reading before completing the two other assignments.
Follow-up from Stu posted in the comments box of the assignment:
I sent an email of what you would expect on the vocab assignment and never got a response back, so I tried my best on this assignment and trying to figure out with the two examples you gave us that were shown to be incorrect, so I didn't know how you wanted to be and this is what i came up with the description you gave us on the assigment. Thank you.
Examples provided were models of correct responses. Response to Stu's 6:30 PM Saturday email went out at 8 AM today.
Quote
Posted by: arcturus
« on: Today at 07:09:12 AM »Insert Quote
Quote from: downer on Today at 04:38:32 AM
Student in asynchronous class emails me telling me that they can't learn the topic asychronously so can I include some synchronous lectures?
No, I reply. I suggest they consider dropping the class.
I think an alternative reply would be: You are welcome to come to office hours to discuss any of the material. My office hours and zoom link are posted in the LMS. I look forward to seeing you on [Friday].
Stu will expect a summary of what was covered so far.
Quote from: arcturus on February 01, 2021, 07:09:12 AM
Quote from: downer on February 01, 2021, 04:38:32 AM
Student in asynchronous class emails me telling me that they can't learn the topic asychronously so can I include some synchronous lectures?
No, I reply. I suggest they consider dropping the class.
I think an alternative reply would be: You are welcome to come to office hours to discuss any of the material. My office hours and zoom link are posted in the LMS. I look forward to seeing you on [Friday].
I agree with this alternate reply. Even if (and that's not clear from the student's e-mail without more information about the student) Stu is convinced that nothing but synchronous lectures will do, then at least you've documented that you tried.
Then again, what do I know? Last night, I received a nasty e-mail from a student who then ended the rant by wishing me a "blessed night." That chain, and another from same student earlier in the week, went straight to my chair. Haven't had to do that in years.
Quote from: bacardiandlime on January 31, 2021, 03:26:49 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 31, 2021, 02:49:02 PM
Quote from: bacardiandlime on January 31, 2021, 02:22:00 PM
Langue_doc: I think we have the same students!! I'm always glad of the Outlook delay send function (no matter when they wrote to me, they're not getting a reply til 9am Monday).
bacardiandlime, you're much more considerate than me. Mine go out at 8 in the morning. Students with real concerns get an immediate response though. Your moniker reminded me that I need a drink.
Lol. Nobody is getting an email from me at the weekend.
No one is getting an email from me on weekends either. But I also purposefully set up my classes so that nothing is DUE on weekends or Mondays.
My syllabus says that emails received 8-4 M-F will be answered within 24 hours & that I do not answer emails on weekends. I'm not "on call 24/7" and neither are my TAs.
Quote from: arcturus on February 01, 2021, 07:09:12 AM
Quote from: downer on February 01, 2021, 04:38:32 AM
Student in asynchronous class emails me telling me that they can't learn the topic asychronously so can I include some synchronous lectures?
No, I reply. I suggest they consider dropping the class.
I think an alternative reply would be: You are welcome to come to office hours to discuss any of the material. My office hours and zoom link are posted in the LMS. I look forward to seeing you on [Friday].
Sure, that is a possible reply. Unfortunately I don't get paid to do office hours.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 01, 2021, 08:41:36 AM
No one is getting an email from me on weekends either. But I also purposefully set up my classes so that nothing is DUE on weekends or Mondays.
My syllabus says that emails received 8-4 M-F will be answered within 24 hours & that I do not answer emails on weekends. I'm not "on call 24/7" and neither are my TAs.
That's like me. The dropboxes for students to submit are open from Tuesday to Thursday for
all of my courses and labs, so nothing even
can be submitted from Friday to Monday, so by definition no weekend email is urgent enough to need a reply before the workday on Monday.
Quote from: downer on February 01, 2021, 04:38:32 AM
Student in asynchronous class emails me telling me that they can't learn the topic asychronously so can I include some synchronous lectures?
No, I reply. I suggest they consider dropping the class.
The good news is that the student did indeed drop the course.
Got this one late Friday from a student who forgot to take their online quiz again. And forgot to turn in their lab assignment until 3 days after the due date. Again.
QuoteHello Professor Geneticist,
Though I understand for worksheets, the fact that I missed quizzes hurts me in more ways than my grades. Last quarter, I took [Other Class] and the due dates for the quizzes were different. Thanks to this, I missed another quiz even though I was making sure I would take it that week. Though it is all my fault for not remembering the syllabus, it is a mistake that seriously hurts my grades. It has been very difficult to conform to my new schedule when it has been the third quarter being in quarantine.
I also learned recently that some students were allowed to take the [Basketweaving] midterm, even after they missed taking it on midterm day. Missing lab quizzes are less important than missing a midterm, and yet they were allowed to retake it.
I respectfully ask, one more time, if there is any way to redeem my lab quiz grades because it hurt my overall grade greatly. Please forgive me if I was ever rude in the email, I was in a small state of panic.
Thank you,
Panicked Student
Fantasy reply:
The entire point of the pre-lab quiz is to prepare you for lab. Read the lab manual, take the quiz, earn the points.
How is this hurting you in more ways than your grade?
Yes, different classes have different assignment due dates. Why is this a surprise?
If this is your third quarter of online classes, you should be better at this.
Lecture isn't my responsibility. FYI, those students had prior arrangements to take the exam later. It wasn't a "retake" since they took it once just like everyone else.
Your late worksheets are hurting your grade way more than your missed quizzes.
Get a damn day planner.
My actual reply was diplomatic. This remote learning is really hurting students who need the structure of in-person classes. It's really hard to miss a quiz when you are handed a paper copy in class.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 01, 2021, 10:32:12 AM
Got this one late Friday from a student who forgot to take their online quiz again. And forgot to turn in their lab assignment until 3 days after the due date. Again.
QuoteHello Professor Geneticist,
Though I understand for worksheets, the fact that I missed quizzes hurts me in more ways than my grades. Last quarter, I took [Other Class] and the due dates for the quizzes were different. Thanks to this, I missed another quiz even though I was making sure I would take it that week. Though it is all my fault for not remembering the syllabus, it is a mistake that seriously hurts my grades. It has been very difficult to conform to my new schedule when it has been the third quarter being in quarantine.
I also learned recently that some students were allowed to take the [Basketweaving] midterm, even after they missed taking it on midterm day. Missing lab quizzes are less important than missing a midterm, and yet they were allowed to retake it.
I respectfully ask, one more time, if there is any way to redeem my lab quiz grades because it hurt my overall grade greatly. Please forgive me if I was ever rude in the email, I was in a small state of panic.
Thank you,
Panicked Student
Fantasy reply:
The entire point of the pre-lab quiz is to prepare you for lab. Read the lab manual, take the quiz, earn the points.
How is this hurting you in more ways than your grade?
Yes, different classes have different assignment due dates. Why is this a surprise?
If this is your third quarter of online classes, you should be better at this.
Lecture isn't my responsibility. FYI, those students had prior arrangements to take the exam later. It wasn't a "retake" since they took it once just like everyone else.
Your late worksheets are hurting your grade way more than your missed quizzes.
Get a damn day planner.
My actual reply was diplomatic. This remote learning is really hurting students who need the structure of in-person classes. It's really hard to miss a quiz when you are handed a paper copy in class.
This is not a gripe at you, but at the culture: as we further infantilize the post-secondary educational experience, instructors will at some point in the near future be asked by "student life professionals" to give students wake-up calls to remind them that they have a class that day at such-and-such time.
Week 2 of classes:
Dear Dr [Reader],
I wanted to let you know I really am trying in your class even though I haven't shown up for class. [. . .] I just want to realize that it is okay to make mistakes and choices ha ha. I know that coming to your class is a choice, but I really am trying to get off of academic probation, and get a work study job. [. . .] I would just like some guidance as to what I need to be doing. Any advice I would accept because you were once a college student.
Sincerely,
[Always Absent Student]
Week 3 of classes:
Dear Dr [Reader]
Hello, my name is [Always Absent Student] and I want to know before it's too late in the semester if I can do a bonus assignment to get the grade I need to raise my grade point average? If not I understand, you've made yourself clear in the syllabus. I just have a lot of work to do, and I'm trying to manage my time wisely. Have a good day!
Sincerely,
[Always Absent Student]
Stu does get bonus points for politeness. Should I tell Stu to turn in this week's large assignment for a "bonus" on the grade??? Stu has turned in 3 of my 6 easy-points early activities. *Those* are the bonus activities. Turn them in for credit. Really.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on February 02, 2021, 01:41:47 PM
Week 2 of classes:
Dear Dr [Reader],
I wanted to let you know I really am trying in your class even though I haven't shown up for class. [. . .] I just want to realize that it is okay to make mistakes and choices ha ha. I know that coming to your class is a choice, but I really am trying to get off of academic probation, and get a work study job. [. . .] I would just like some guidance as to what I need to be doing. Any advice I would accept because you were once a college student.
Sincerely,
[Always Absent Student]
I "really am trying" to become an olympic athlete; all I still need to do is pick a sport and practice.
My favorite part of this email is actually that Stu will accept my guidance "because [I was] once a college student."
Stu did not accept follow last week's guidance.
AR
Two more today:
Goodafternoon Professor , when is [assignment] due ?
Stu, read the module and the syllabus. It's all there--due date and time (repeated twice in the same module and in the syllabus) and the date students can access the assignment folder.
Hi, do you ever allow students to email you papers for feedback before submission.
Students are allowed to revise and resubmit these assignments. Stu, what part of "I will not be opening emailed attachments" do you not understand? Review my comments on your topic, read the directions, the model essays, and the checklist.
These are polite emails, but no amount of politeness can substitute for actually reading the modules.
ETA Email from Stu 1 above timestamped 11:45 PM:
Good evening Professor , I saw that I got a 5/10 on my library assignment saying that it was incomplete. I did my best and followed the all directions to the assignment and it's was incomplete, what was incomplete about my work ? Can you please explain ? And when is [assignment] due? Thank you in advance.
Stu, read the modules and the examples in the directions for the assignment.
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 02, 2021, 08:27:46 PM
Two more today:
Goodafternoon Professor , when is [assignment] due ?
Stu, read the module and the syllabus. It's all there--due date and time (repeated twice in the same module and in the syllabus) and the date students can access the assignment folder.
Hi, do you ever allow students to email you papers for feedback before submission.
Students are allowed to revise and resubmit these assignments. Stu, what part of "I will not be opening emailed attachments" do you not understand? Review my comments on your topic, read the directions, the model essays, and the checklist.
These are polite emails, but no amount of politeness can substitute for actually reading the modules.
ETA Email from Stu 1 above timestamped 11:45 PM:
Good evening Professor , I saw that I got a 5/10 on my library assignment saying that it was incomplete. I did my best and followed the all directions to the assignment and it's was incomplete, what was incomplete about my work ? Can you please explain ? And when is [assignment] due? Thank you in advance.
Stu, read the modules and the examples in the directions for the assignment.
I had many students like that in my previous CC. Even I verbally mentioned countless number of times and also explicitly put on the front page of exam papers that they had to write down their name and student ID or else they would get a zero, half of the class did not do that.
One time I got a final repot from a group of foreign students. They only did half of the work. Even the parts they completed were not perfect. Two of them (from Ir*n) complained to the department head accusing me of giving them poor marks "due to discrimination". One girl pretended to cry and at the end, a director asked her what kind of marks she wanted and ended up raising the scores of the entire group without my consent nor knowing. I found that out later on. They also posted their version of the story on RMP.
Why schools keep accepting this kind of people as students? Is it for money? Is it for the so-called equality opportunity for all? Why the education system is so desperate to keep them? If they can't even read the syllabus or don't bother to do it, they don't deserve to be students.
The role of a CC is to accept all students who meet the entry requirements. Being a student is not a privilege, and if you ask prospective students whether they will read the syllabus, they will all say yes. Getting a scholarship is a privelege -- maybe these students don't deserve scholarships. And maybe these students won't pass.
Message from student on canvas (despite having asked them to send messages on piazza so that other students who have the same question can see them):
Hey,
I am not sure about question 3 of the homework assignment. [...] Should the answer be 80 or 140? Please help!
---
I am not going to nag about the actual content of the message, which is what it is (the student probably thinks he is still in elementary school). I would like to ask the following: Have you ever been addressed by "Hey"?
Quote from: research_prof on February 03, 2021, 06:46:11 AM
Message from student on canvas (despite having asked them to send messages on piazza so that other students who have the same question can see them):
Hey,
I am not sure about question 3 of the homework assignment. [...] Should the answer be 80 or 140? Please help!
---
I am not going to nag about the actual content of the message, which is what it is (the student probably thinks he is still in elementary school). I would like to ask the following: Have you ever been addressed by "Hey"?
I hate students addressing me as "Hey", "Dude", etc. Yet, they are better than those who did not even address me and put their demands up front.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 02, 2021, 04:31:59 PM
Quote from: AvidReader on February 02, 2021, 01:41:47 PM
Week 2 of classes:
Dear Dr [Reader],
I wanted to let you know I really am trying in your class even though I haven't shown up for class. [. . .] I just want to realize that it is okay to make mistakes and choices ha ha. I know that coming to your class is a choice, but I really am trying to get off of academic probation, and get a work study job. [. . .] I would just like some guidance as to what I need to be doing. Any advice I would accept because you were once a college student.
Sincerely,
[Always Absent Student]
I "really am trying" to become an olympic athlete; all I still need to do is pick a sport and practice.
Seems like Yoda once said something to the effect that there is no "try." One does or doesn't.
Quote from: hamburger on February 03, 2021, 06:57:20 AM
Quote from: research_prof on February 03, 2021, 06:46:11 AM
Message from student on canvas (despite having asked them to send messages on piazza so that other students who have the same question can see them):
Hey,
I am not sure about question 3 of the homework assignment. [...] Should the answer be 80 or 140? Please help!
---
I am not going to nag about the actual content of the message, which is what it is (the student probably thinks he is still in elementary school). I would like to ask the following: Have you ever been addressed by "Hey"?
I hate students addressing me as "Hey", "Dude", etc. Yet, they are better than those who did not even address me and put their demands up front.
Sure. But I feel this specific student believes he deserves some sort of special treatment compared to all the other students that post their questions on piazza. He has essentially started a common message thread with me on canvas from the beginning of the semester and has ignored the fact that I have asked him to post his questions on piazza as everybody else does.
Of course, no need to mention that all his questions are of that type (asking for solutions to assignments, asking for very minor clarifications, etc.). Not sure if he believes I will get to know his name this way and give him a better grade or something.. for sure, I have gotten to know his name, but not in a positive sense at this point.
Quote from: research_prof on February 03, 2021, 06:46:11 AM
Message from student on canvas (despite having asked them to send messages on piazza so that other students who have the same question can see them):
Hey,
I am not sure about question 3 of the homework assignment. [...] Should the answer be 80 or 140? Please help!
---
I am not going to nag about the actual content of the message, which is what it is (the student probably thinks he is still in elementary school). I would like to ask the following: Have you ever been addressed by "Hey"?
A) Step me through how you got to 80, and then how you got to 140. Compare your steps to the book. What do you think you might have done wrong?
Usually the level of effort to explain what they did is enough to turn them off from ever emailing me again.
Quote from: ciao_yall on February 03, 2021, 07:54:29 AM
Quote from: research_prof on February 03, 2021, 06:46:11 AM
Message from student on canvas (despite having asked them to send messages on piazza so that other students who have the same question can see them):
Hey,
I am not sure about question 3 of the homework assignment. [...] Should the answer be 80 or 140? Please help!
---
I am not going to nag about the actual content of the message, which is what it is (the student probably thinks he is still in elementary school). I would like to ask the following: Have you ever been addressed by "Hey"?
A) Step me through how you got to 80, and then how you got to 140. Compare your steps to the book. What do you think you might have done wrong?
Usually the level of effort to explain what they did is enough to turn them off from ever emailing me again.
I asked him to read through the lecture slides and watch the lecture videos. I have something very similar there, he just did not bother doing any of that first I suppose.
Quote from: ciao_yall on February 03, 2021, 07:54:29 AM
Quote from: research_prof on February 03, 2021, 06:46:11 AM
Message from student on canvas (despite having asked them to send messages on piazza so that other students who have the same question can see them):
Hey,
I am not sure about question 3 of the homework assignment. [...] Should the answer be 80 or 140? Please help!
---
I am not going to nag about the actual content of the message, which is what it is (the student probably thinks he is still in elementary school). I would like to ask the following: Have you ever been addressed by "Hey"?
A) Step me through how you got to 80, and then how you got to 140. Compare your steps to the book. What do you think you might have done wrong?
Usually the level of effort to explain what they did is enough to turn them off from ever emailing me again.
Or it sometimes will make a student realize that they CAN check their work themselves. Or that you are teaching them a process. They sometimes think that "good students" will just have answers pop into their heads. I've coached a lot of students through some basics like "write down what is given/what formulas could you use/draw a diagram/estimate an answer/what units does your answer need to be in".
Quote from: hamburger on February 03, 2021, 06:57:20 AM
Quote from: research_prof on February 03, 2021, 06:46:11 AM
I would like to ask the following: Have you ever been addressed by "Hey"?
I hate students addressing me as "Hey", "Dude", etc. Yet, they are better than those who did not even address me and put their demands up front.
I occasionally get "Hey" on its own, but I am far more likely to get "Hey Dr. Reader." Since my email guidelines recommend salutations, I count that as a win.
With email on phones now, I imagine that "Hey" carries over from text messages and that they don't even think about it.
For the "common message thread with [you] on canvas," I would reply to every single message with the boilerplate text, "Thank you for your message. In accordance with class policies, please post your message to our class discussion on piazza. Thank you!"
AR.
For Spring 2021, classes that are designated "HYFLEX" are required to have some sort of in-person component. Instructors who were concerned about COVID were allowed to teach classes designated "AVSync," meaning synchronous online. The Provost's Office sent out an email reminding faculty of the in-person requirement.
Now grad students are using the departmental listservs to voice displeasure....in a most unprofessional manner as possible. The emails will likely be my "favorite" of this term. Luckily I'm not part of the graduate faculty, so I don't have to deal with these students specifically.
Email from student apologizing for plagiarizing. This was a low-stakes assignment, so I just highlighted the first plagiarized sentence and copied and pasted the original sentence along with the URL. There were three instances of plagiarism, but only one acknowledgment.
Good for you, Stu. You will do well in this course.
A student emailed me at the beginning of this week because they couldn't find the course content on blackboard I was talking about in my introductory email to the class. As proof that the content didn't exist the student sent several screenshots. They were screenshots of a completely different class.
Quote from: RatGuy on February 03, 2021, 10:19:02 AM
For Spring 2021, classes that are designated "HYFLEX" are required to have some sort of in-person component. Instructors who were concerned about COVID were allowed to teach classes designated "AVSync," meaning synchronous online. The Provost's Office sent out an email reminding faculty of the in-person requirement.
Now grad students are using the departmental listservs to voice displeasure....in a most unprofessional manner as possible. The emails will likely be my "favorite" of this term. Luckily I'm not part of the graduate faculty, so I don't have to deal with these students specifically.
Not wise, but I don't think the University can get off the hook by just saying "you had your choice back in September, you miscalculated about what the situation would be now, so sucks to be you-go teach some classes in person."
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on February 03, 2021, 12:30:17 PM
A student emailed me at the beginning of this week because they couldn't find the course content on blackboard I was talking about in my introductory email to the class. As proof that the content didn't exist the student sent several screenshots. They were screenshots of a completely different class.
I'm not sure if I posted this already, but here is a similar story.
Summer intensive course, the first day of class. Disruptive student kept disruping all through the first hour or so of class when I was going over the syllabus, assignments,course materials and readings, and the grading policies. Sent Stu to the office as Stu's name wasn't on the roster -- this was a multiple-section course. A day or two later I ran into Stu and asked if Stu had found the right section. Turned out that Stu was enrolled in the equivalent of engineering whereas I was teaching the equivalent of painting.
Stu Dent: "This is because I need a bit more of some information to comprehend and I will be al set. I have studies constantly on taking notes I promise I will reach for an A my next attempt"
Okay. So obviously, not a native English speaker. That's fine, roughly one quarter to one one third of my students are not native English speakers. But dang, this is pushing past minimum norms for basic grammar. I don't even know what the student is even asking about. This is the only sentence that was emailed to me. Heck, I don't even know what course this student is in, as that (required) information was also missing.
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on February 03, 2021, 12:30:17 PM
A student emailed me at the beginning of this week because they couldn't find the course content on blackboard I was talking about in my introductory email to the class. As proof that the content didn't exist the student sent several screenshots. They were screenshots of a completely different class.
A student emailed me yesterday claiming not to be able to "see any information" for the class (that was how he phrased it) and wondered if I could email him the assignments. I emailed explicit instructions for logging in to the university portal, then finding our course. Has he done so as of a few minutes ago? No! I'm foreseeing a repeat of my Mr. Clueless from last semester.
Quote from: apl68 on February 03, 2021, 06:58:30 AM
Seems like Yoda once said something to the effect that there is no "try." One does or doesn't.
I don't like that line from Yoda.
Without trying, one is limited to doing things that one is already capable of doing. There's no path to develop new capabilities.
Quote from: Biologist_ on February 03, 2021, 08:00:45 PM
Quote from: apl68 on February 03, 2021, 06:58:30 AM
Seems like Yoda once said something to the effect that there is no "try." One does or doesn't.
I don't like that line from Yoda.
Without trying, one is limited to doing things that one is already capable of doing. There's no path to develop new capabilities.
I always interpreted it as one should go forward with the intent of accomplishing something and not have an attitude/excuse that it is only an attempt. If someone says, "I'll give it a try" it sounds like they are unsure about it and getting ready to come up with excuses as to why it didn't work out.
While saying, "I'll do that" sounds more confident, intentional and more importantly not expecting to fail.
Quote from: Charlotte on February 04, 2021, 03:45:02 AM
Quote from: Biologist_ on February 03, 2021, 08:00:45 PM
Quote from: apl68 on February 03, 2021, 06:58:30 AM
Seems like Yoda once said something to the effect that there is no "try." One does or doesn't.
I don't like that line from Yoda.
Without trying, one is limited to doing things that one is already capable of doing. There's no path to develop new capabilities.
I always interpreted it as one should go forward with the intent of accomplishing something and not have an attitude/excuse that it is only an attempt. If someone says, "I'll give it a try" it sounds like they are unsure about it and getting ready to come up with excuses as to why it didn't work out.
This is illustrated perfectly by the student whose comment prompted this, who claimed to be "really trying" to succeed in a course even while admittedly skipping classes. That's not trying; that's wishful thinking.
Quote from: Caracal on February 03, 2021, 12:36:07 PM
Quote from: RatGuy on February 03, 2021, 10:19:02 AM
For Spring 2021, classes that are designated "HYFLEX" are required to have some sort of in-person component. Instructors who were concerned about COVID were allowed to teach classes designated "AVSync," meaning synchronous online. The Provost's Office sent out an email reminding faculty of the in-person requirement.
Now grad students are using the departmental listservs to voice displeasure....in a most unprofessional manner as possible. The emails will likely be my "favorite" of this term. Luckily I'm not part of the graduate faculty, so I don't have to deal with these students specifically.
Not wise, but I don't think the University can get off the hook by just saying "you had your choice back in September, you miscalculated about what the situation would be now, so sucks to be you-go teach some classes in person."
Instructor decisions to teach online or in person for Spring 2021 was made much later than September, and the University has a kind of "no questions asked" policy when it came to requesting online courses or going on the "high risk" list. I don't think its unreasonable to assume that if an instructor checks the box "I want to teach at least partly in person for Spring 21" would indeed use that mode of delivery, especially given the University's claim that we would be hybrid flexible at least until Aug '21. But I think a first-year MA student shouldn't be posting "If the Provost wants my class it meet in person, then tell him that he can effing do it. Let him drown in his own blood." Thankfully I don't have to do damage control on that one.
Quote from: Charlotte on February 04, 2021, 03:45:02 AM
Quote from: Biologist_ on February 03, 2021, 08:00:45 PM
Quote from: apl68 on February 03, 2021, 06:58:30 AM
Seems like Yoda once said something to the effect that there is no "try." One does or doesn't.
I don't like that line from Yoda.
Without trying, one is limited to doing things that one is already capable of doing. There's no path to develop new capabilities.
I always interpreted it as one should go forward with the intent of accomplishing something and not have an attitude/excuse that it is only an attempt. If someone says, "I'll give it a try" it sounds like they are unsure about it and getting ready to come up with excuses as to why it didn't work out.
While saying, "I'll do that" sounds more confident, intentional and more importantly not expecting to fail.
That was my thought as well. It did occur to me that in a different context the quote could be understood as discouraging effort or urging a destructive perfectionism. But a student doesn't "try" to attend class--one either makes it or doesn't. Maybe circumstances make it impossible now and then, but a student who keeps missing either isn't honestly trying or has conflicts that make withdrawing from the class advisable. If it's a traditional-age student without a lot of family responsibilities, I'd be inclined to suspect the former.
Quote from: apl68 on February 04, 2021, 07:33:16 AM
That was my thought as well. It did occur to me that in a different context the quote could be understood as discouraging effort or urging a destructive perfectionism. But a student doesn't "try" to attend class--one either makes it or doesn't. Maybe circumstances make it impossible now and then, but a student who keeps missing either isn't honestly trying or has conflicts that make withdrawing from the class advisable. If it's a traditional-age student without a lot of family responsibilities, I'd be inclined to suspect the former.
Or if you invite someone to an event and they say, "I'll try to make it" then it implies that it is not a priority for them to actually make it.
Quote from: Charlotte on February 04, 2021, 07:51:27 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 04, 2021, 07:33:16 AM
That was my thought as well. It did occur to me that in a different context the quote could be understood as discouraging effort or urging a destructive perfectionism. But a student doesn't "try" to attend class--one either makes it or doesn't. Maybe circumstances make it impossible now and then, but a student who keeps missing either isn't honestly trying or has conflicts that make withdrawing from the class advisable. If it's a traditional-age student without a lot of family responsibilities, I'd be inclined to suspect the former.
Or if you invite someone to an event and they say, "I'll try to make it" then it implies that it is not a priority for them to actually make it.
I've been guilty of that more than once....
Quote from: RatGuy on February 04, 2021, 05:40:05 AM
Quote from: Caracal on February 03, 2021, 12:36:07 PM
Quote from: RatGuy on February 03, 2021, 10:19:02 AM
For Spring 2021, classes that are designated "HYFLEX" are required to have some sort of in-person component. Instructors who were concerned about COVID were allowed to teach classes designated "AVSync," meaning synchronous online. The Provost's Office sent out an email reminding faculty of the in-person requirement.
Now grad students are using the departmental listservs to voice displeasure....in a most unprofessional manner as possible. The emails will likely be my "favorite" of this term. Luckily I'm not part of the graduate faculty, so I don't have to deal with these students specifically.
Not wise, but I don't think the University can get off the hook by just saying "you had your choice back in September, you miscalculated about what the situation would be now, so sucks to be you-go teach some classes in person."
Instructor decisions to teach online or in person for Spring 2021 was made much later than September, and the University has a kind of "no questions asked" policy when it came to requesting online courses or going on the "high risk" list. I don't think its unreasonable to assume that if an instructor checks the box "I want to teach at least partly in person for Spring 21" would indeed use that mode of delivery, especially given the University's claim that we would be hybrid flexible at least until Aug '21. But I think a first-year MA student shouldn't be posting "If the Provost wants my class it meet in person, then tell him that he can effing do it. Let him drown in his own blood." Thankfully I don't have to do damage control on that one.
Whoa! Is that student going to continue to be enrolled as an MA student at your institution? What could possibly be the damage control possible for that statement? I don't think there's a "misunderstanding" here. That post was perfectly clear.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on February 04, 2021, 09:17:01 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on February 04, 2021, 05:40:05 AM
Quote from: Caracal on February 03, 2021, 12:36:07 PM
Quote from: RatGuy on February 03, 2021, 10:19:02 AM
For Spring 2021, classes that are designated "HYFLEX" are required to have some sort of in-person component. Instructors who were concerned about COVID were allowed to teach classes designated "AVSync," meaning synchronous online. The Provost's Office sent out an email reminding faculty of the in-person requirement.
Now grad students are using the departmental listservs to voice displeasure....in a most unprofessional manner as possible. The emails will likely be my "favorite" of this term. Luckily I'm not part of the graduate faculty, so I don't have to deal with these students specifically.
Not wise, but I don't think the University can get off the hook by just saying "you had your choice back in September, you miscalculated about what the situation would be now, so sucks to be you-go teach some classes in person."
Instructor decisions to teach online or in person for Spring 2021 was made much later than September, and the University has a kind of "no questions asked" policy when it came to requesting online courses or going on the "high risk" list. I don't think its unreasonable to assume that if an instructor checks the box "I want to teach at least partly in person for Spring 21" would indeed use that mode of delivery, especially given the University's claim that we would be hybrid flexible at least until Aug '21. But I think a first-year MA student shouldn't be posting "If the Provost wants my class it meet in person, then tell him that he can effing do it. Let him drown in his own blood." Thankfully I don't have to do damage control on that one.
Whoa! Is that student going to continue to be enrolled as an MA student at your institution? What could possibly be the damage control possible for that statement? I don't think there's a "misunderstanding" here. That post was perfectly clear.
Clarification request: These graduate students who are being required to teach (as T.A.'s) in person, correct? I can imagine this scenario generating conflict, especially if the T.A.'s have no choice in the matter.
Our graduate students are VERY concerned about the plan to return to in-person teaching in Fall. Basically, unless the campus requires the students to be vaccinated, the graduate students do not want to teach in person. There is no way to maintain social distancing in a lab class.
Just in, from a different student enrolled in the same class as my student who is "trying." New emailing student has also never been to class. Student spent fourteen minutes on the CMS at the end of the first week of classes and logged in again today for another four minutes, during which time student ticked the "completed" button for all the work student has not submitted and then marked most directions and course videos as completed, including the directions for the first essay, the video explaining the first essay, and the video describing how to navigate the CMS. The email in its entirety:
Hi I'm confused on what's going on in your class what's the essay supposed to be on I missed a few days now I don't know what's going on
AR.
AR, I feel your pain.
Excerpt from a response to my "early warning" email:
I understand your concern and I greatly appreciate it. My late assignments are not something I intend to repeat, and I am fully adamant on passing with course with a high grade. I am interested in the course as well as keeping a good standing in terms of grades. I assure you I will from this point on put in the effort and work to attain an appropriate grade.
Stu's assignments aren't late, they're missing and thus earned zeros. According to the syllabus, assignments are due by the deadline. Stu was polite and apologetic about missing assignments. At least, Stu states that hu will "put in the effort and work" instead of trying to put in the effort and work.
Quote from: dr_codex on February 04, 2021, 09:23:21 AM
Clarification request: These graduate students who are being required to teach (as T.A.'s) in person, correct? I can imagine this scenario generating conflict, especially if the T.A.'s have no choice in the matter.
TAs, along with FT and PT faculty, were asked to submit requests for in-person or online-only. There was a separate survey for individuals who wanted to be classified as high risk. Both surveys were "no questions asked," meaning that no one had to submit documentation. If you requested online-only, you received it.
Again, I'm not graduate faculty so I don't know these students personally -- they just have access to the departmental listserv. Recent scuttlebutt indicates some of them complaining are not, in fact, teaching in person (either because they are teaching online or because teaching is not part of their assistantship). So it may be that these students indicated their willingness to teach in person when the survey was circulated last November, or it may be that they're not in class at all. What has happened is a lot of listserv dogpiling. My guess is that their respective program heads are handling it internally.
Quote from: RatGuy on February 03, 2021, 10:19:02 AM
For Spring 2021, classes that are designated "HYFLEX" are required to have some sort of in-person component. Instructors who were concerned about COVID were allowed to teach classes designated "AVSync," meaning synchronous online. The Provost's Office sent out an email reminding faculty of the in-person requirement.
Now grad students are using the departmental listservs to voice displeasure....in a most unprofessional manner as possible. The emails will likely be my "favorite" of this term. Luckily I'm not part of the graduate faculty, so I don't have to deal with these students specifically.
Well, if you are on quarters (which I'm assuming otherwise your Spring 2021 would have already started), it's not really fair to hold someone to a reply they gave back in November about what they would prefer for teaching in April.
My state is doing way worse now that it was in November - more cases, more deaths, etc.
Or the TAs might be rightfully concerned about the safety of their classmates & friends, even if they aren't personally expected to teach in Spring.
Quote from: Charlotte on February 04, 2021, 07:51:27 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 04, 2021, 07:33:16 AM
That was my thought as well. It did occur to me that in a different context the quote could be understood as discouraging effort or urging a destructive perfectionism. But a student doesn't "try" to attend class--one either makes it or doesn't. Maybe circumstances make it impossible now and then, but a student who keeps missing either isn't honestly trying or has conflicts that make withdrawing from the class advisable. If it's a traditional-age student without a lot of family responsibilities, I'd be inclined to suspect the former.
Or if you invite someone to an event and they say, "I'll try to make it" then it implies that it is not a priority for them to actually make it.
I think of this as having two components.
One component is the outcome: e.g. student shows up for class.
The other component is the approach to achieving the outcome: e.g. student goes to bed at a reasonable hour so he can wake up on time to make it to class.
So, I don't equate "I'll try" with "I won't."
For example, someone can "try to make it" to an event by attempting to reschedule a conflicting obligation but their requests to move that date or get someone to cover for them may be rejected. The fact that they didn't make it doesn't necessarily imply they didn't put in an effort or that they didn't consider it important.
Sometimes they are limited in how much they can control.
Sometimes they make poor choices as to approach.
And, sure, sometimes people just use the phrase as a way to blow you off.
Hey Good afternoon professor, can you send me a rubric for the essay we have to write on the article due sunday???
That's an oddly specific question. Particularly for somebody who the CMS indicates hasn't read the assignment instructions, where such information can be found.
I wonder if somebody's ghost writer tutor asked about it.
"Trying" student came to class today! Success!
Other confused student spent two hours over the weekend struggling to find the assignment directions on our CMS. We had a series of emails back and forth. The directions were the top item in the tab marked "Essay 1." Fortunately, I could see the log and see where student clicked each time ("Student, you are looking in the tab labeled 'Midterm.' Click on the tab labeled "Essay 1.")
At the end of our exchange, student asked in the last email if student could talk to me after class today because student was "so confused" about the class. Of course! I have office hours after literally every class (and at many other times).
Confused student did not come to class today. Confused student is not here for office hours. Confused student has not been back on the CMS since finding the assignment directions, though the other resources posted there would make this essay substantially easier to write (as would attending class).
AR.
A student emails me thinking that uploading files will automatically turn them all into one file. No, that's not how the system works.
Quote from: dr_codex on January 27, 2021, 09:18:53 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 27, 2021, 05:21:23 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on January 26, 2021, 02:42:35 PM
This one was forwarded to a bunch of us by our Academic Dean:
I dont know if the problem is on my end but its been a full week of classes but none of the professors have contacted me for anything like a zoom call or other method of communication i dont know if im missing classes or not and i wish not to fall to far behind i wont be able to go to campus tomorrow because i am still waiting on my covid results if there is anyway you can help me please let me know
I'd love to know what Stu thought we were all doing, behind Stu's back. Or what made Stu finally twig that perhaps all of the faculty, administration, and staff were not the problem. Activate your email!
Perhaps Stu hasn't yet logged on to their online course? Or not turned on their notifications? Or waiting for their professor to add them to their Facebook account?
I'm getting ready to send an announcement to the effect that the modules are in fact the equivalent of class lectures and that students are expected to *read* the modules. All the so-called missing links and readings *are* in the modules! I suspect several of the students are using their phones instead of their computers and are just scrolling through the information without really reading anything.
Much more fundamental. New-Stu never set up a college email account. Virtually everything is linked to that, including CMS authentication.
Also, Stu never answered emails sent to a private account, nor phone calls from the Registrar.
Stu is a very, very good ghost.
But wait! There's more...
I apologize for not connecting with you i have been having email issues that have finally been resolved i have been trying to enter your zoom call but for some reason i cant can you please resend me the link i do not attend to withdraw or fail the class and wish to get in contact with you on ways i can catch up on the work i missed i logged in to blackboard and was wondering if it was too late to turn in any of the assignments that are posted or anything else i can do.We are now in week 5. The Zoom link is plastered all over Blackboard. Not a good sign.
Also, the creative ee cummings-esque deigning to punctuate or capitalize. For a Comp II class. It's rather majestic, in its own way, but not a good sign.
Fingers crossed that the Registrar is going to field this one.
Students trying to pull "bad wifi" or "computer problems" as an excuse for zoom attendance get a cheery message from me about how they can just dial in! From any phone! Isn't it great? Even from their Aunts house in Tibet with no wifi where they said they were stuck. See you in class!
Quote from: dr_codex on February 09, 2021, 02:08:58 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on January 27, 2021, 09:18:53 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 27, 2021, 05:21:23 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on January 26, 2021, 02:42:35 PM
This one was forwarded to a bunch of us by our Academic Dean:
I dont know if the problem is on my end but its been a full week of classes but none of the professors have contacted me for anything like a zoom call or other method of communication i dont know if im missing classes or not and i wish not to fall to far behind i wont be able to go to campus tomorrow because i am still waiting on my covid results if there is anyway you can help me please let me know
I'd love to know what Stu thought we were all doing, behind Stu's back. Or what made Stu finally twig that perhaps all of the faculty, administration, and staff were not the problem. Activate your email!
Perhaps Stu hasn't yet logged on to their online course? Or not turned on their notifications? Or waiting for their professor to add them to their Facebook account?
I'm getting ready to send an announcement to the effect that the modules are in fact the equivalent of class lectures and that students are expected to *read* the modules. All the so-called missing links and readings *are* in the modules! I suspect several of the students are using their phones instead of their computers and are just scrolling through the information without really reading anything.
Much more fundamental. New-Stu never set up a college email account. Virtually everything is linked to that, including CMS authentication.
Also, Stu never answered emails sent to a private account, nor phone calls from the Registrar.
Stu is a very, very good ghost.
But wait! There's more...
I apologize for not connecting with you i have been having email issues that have finally been resolved i have been trying to enter your zoom call but for some reason i cant can you please resend me the link i do not attend to withdraw or fail the class and wish to get in contact with you on ways i can catch up on the work i missed i logged in to blackboard and was wondering if it was too late to turn in any of the assignments that are posted or anything else i can do.
We are now in week 5. The Zoom link is plastered all over Blackboard. Not a good sign.
Also, the creative ee cummings-esque deigning to punctuate or capitalize. For a Comp II class. It's rather majestic, in its own way, but not a good sign.
Fingers crossed that the Registrar is going to field this one.
If Stu is still confused about locating the Zoom link, how on earth is Stu going to read the course materials or upload assignments? Follow the formatting requirements for Comp assignments?
Certainly not as hopeless as Dr. Codex's student below, but I received an email from a student who is struggling with an assignment, is sure they are going to fail, and asks "what, if anything, can I do about this?"
Well, let's see, you could email me your questions, attend my multiple student hours this week, request a meeting outside of my student hours, contact one of the TAs for this course, look at the multitude of resources I have uploaded to the LMS that I can see you haven't accessed . . . or you could just fail right now.
I was polite and helpful in my response as I know it's a stressful time, but sheesh, attempt some problem solving!
Dr.-Codex, you seem to have inherited my Mr. Clueless from last semester who (1) had alleged email problems; (2) couldn't figure out how to log into the university's system; (3) when he did, he looked for the course in Blackboard, whereas I use Canvas (our university is transitioning)—as I told him in my email about how to log on. After several emails, reports to his adviser, and finally a recommendation that he withdraw, he refused to do so, and predictably failed.
Have fun with this one!
Today a student who has never attended class emailed at 8:40 wanting to make up all the missed work and join class via Zoom (an option I do offer as needed if students let me know that they are unwell, quarantining, or otherwise unable to make it in person).
Student emailed again at 8:45, 8:55, and several times in the 9:00 hour, growing increasingly frustrated with my failure to respond.
Our class meets from 8:00 to 9:25. I do not check my email during class. Do other teachers check email while teaching? It seems to me that that would be very inconvenient for all the students who do come to class.
AR.
Quote from: cathwen on February 10, 2021, 06:49:35 AM
Dr.-Codex, you seem to have inherited my Mr. Clueless from last semester who (1) had alleged email problems; (2) couldn't figure out how to log into the university's system; (3) when he did, he looked for the course in Blackboard, whereas I use Canvas (our university is transitioning)—as I told him in my email about how to log on. After several emails, reports to his adviser, and finally a recommendation that he withdraw, he refused to do so, and predictably failed.
Have fun with this one!
Thanks?
We refund a substantial portion of tuition to students who are flagged as "never attending". If Stu were wise, Stu would request this.
Quote from: AvidReader on February 10, 2021, 09:33:35 AM
Today a student who has never attended class emailed at 8:40 wanting to make up all the missed work and join class via Zoom (an option I do offer as needed if students let me know that they are unwell, quarantining, or otherwise unable to make it in person).
Student emailed again at 8:45, 8:55, and several times in the 9:00 hour, growing increasingly frustrated with my failure to respond.
Our class meets from 8:00 to 9:25. I do not check my email during class. Do other teachers check email while teaching? It seems to me that that would be very inconvenient for all the students who do come to class.
AR.
I'd guess that for a lot of young people that live on their phones, they can't conceive of anyone not looking at their device for 15 minutes, let alone a couple of hours.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 10, 2021, 10:04:09 AM
Quote from: AvidReader on February 10, 2021, 09:33:35 AM
Today a student who has never attended class emailed at 8:40 wanting to make up all the missed work and join class via Zoom (an option I do offer as needed if students let me know that they are unwell, quarantining, or otherwise unable to make it in person).
Student emailed again at 8:45, 8:55, and several times in the 9:00 hour, growing increasingly frustrated with my failure to respond.
Our class meets from 8:00 to 9:25. I do not check my email during class. Do other teachers check email while teaching? It seems to me that that would be very inconvenient for all the students who do come to class.
AR.
I'd guess that for a lot of young people that live on their phones, they can't conceive of anyone not looking at their device for 15 minutes, let alone a couple of hours.
I know I don't check mine.
Why didn't the student just click the Zoom link to join the class?
Quote from: AvidReader on February 10, 2021, 09:33:35 AM
Today a student who has never attended class emailed at 8:40 wanting to make up all the missed work and join class via Zoom (an option I do offer as needed if students let me know that they are unwell, quarantining, or otherwise unable to make it in person).
Student emailed again at 8:45, 8:55, and several times in the 9:00 hour, growing increasingly frustrated with my failure to respond.
Our class meets from 8:00 to 9:25. I do not check my email during class. Do other teachers check email while teaching? It seems to me that that would be very inconvenient for all the students who do come to class.
AR.
I don't when I'm lecturing, even when I'm Zoom lecturing in my office. I do sometimes when I'm in lab, if the students are working away with no questions and I have nothing to do but sit and stare at them, I will sit at the instructor's station and check my email. But I do tell students that if they email me when I'm in class, or way outside of normal working hours (say at 4 AM) then not to expect a quick response. It's on my syllabus that I will reply within 24 hours, except on the weekends.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 10, 2021, 10:33:19 AM
I know I don't check mine.
Why didn't the student just click the Zoom link to join the class?
We are in person at half capacity here -- I have offered to open Zoom for any student who needs it, as I don't want to penalize someone for not coming to class (quarantine, illness, or whatever), but I don't start Zoom unless someone has asked for it. Department offers online synchronous and asynchronous options, hy-flex with half the class on live video, and hy-flex that runs like a real hybrid (what I do), so I am trying to give my students the best in-person experience possible. If one or two are on Zoom, that's fine; when nobody needs it, it is nice to focus exclusively on my in-person students.
AR.
Sorry to double-post. Two this morning.
#1 from a student who emails every Saturday asking if I can reopen all the past week's work so student can submit it late. (Last week, student wanted me to open all past work since the beginning of school). Every Saturday, I remind Stu that I don't accept late work, and list the new work worth about the same number of points that will be due in the coming week. We have now done this for five weeks. Stu has submitted *nothing,* but would still like me to reopen last week's work.
#2 from a student who has never attended and has done exactly one class activity (worth 5 points). In its entirety:
"Is there anyway I still can catch up ? "
Sigh.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on February 20, 2021, 08:54:35 AM
Sorry to double-post. Two this morning.
#1 from a student who emails every Saturday asking if I can reopen all the past week's work so student can submit it late. (Last week, student wanted me to open all past work since the beginning of school). Every Saturday, I remind Stu that I don't accept late work, and list the new work worth about the same number of points that will be due in the coming week. We have now done this for five weeks. Stu has submitted *nothing,* but would still like me to reopen last week's work.
#2 from a student who has never attended and has done exactly one class activity (worth 5 points). In its entirety:
"Is there anyway I still can catch up ? "
Sigh.
AR.
AR, I am happy to reply to your students for you!
Student #1,
No.
--AR
Student #2,
No.
--AR
Done! Now turn off your email for the weekend!
From Stu who always waits until the last minute to submit assignments, in response to my reminder that assignments should be submitted on Canvas and that I do not open attachments or click on links sent by students:
"..please make accommodations in my case, I'm sure if I asked the entire class if it was fair they would say yes."
Stu, your classmates do not get to decide course policies. A class is not a democracy.
Suggestions for a response would be greatly appreciated.
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 20, 2021, 11:48:37 AM
From Stu who always waits until the last minute to submit assignments, in response to my reminder that assignments should be submitted on Canvas and that I do not open attachments or click on links sent by students:
"..please make accommodations in my case, I'm sure if I asked the entire class if it was fair they would say yes."
Stu, your classmates do not get to decide course policies. A class is not a democracy.
Suggestions for a response would be greatly appreciated.
"Stu,
I can't make that accommodation for anyone. Please let me know if you have any other questions.
Professor L_d"
My two cents: Just state the facts in the most simplest, non-apologetic, non-engaging manner possible. It took me about 15 years of teaching to learn this. And I still forget. I'm a little on the slow side.
Quote from: fishbrains on February 20, 2021, 11:56:09 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 20, 2021, 11:48:37 AM
From Stu who always waits until the last minute to submit assignments, in response to my reminder that assignments should be submitted on Canvas and that I do not open attachments or click on links sent by students:
"..please make accommodations in my case, I'm sure if I asked the entire class if it was fair they would say yes."
Stu, your classmates do not get to decide course policies. A class is not a democracy.
Suggestions for a response would be greatly appreciated.
"Stu,
I can't make that accommodation for anyone. Please let me know if you have any other questions.
Professor L_d"
My two cents: Just state the facts in the most simplest, non-apologetic, non-engaging manner possible. It took me about 15 years of teaching to learn this. And I still forget. I'm a little on the slow side.
Agreed, I'd keep it short. I tend to just re-state the policies, unless there is a specific reason to engage otherwise (but I've been accused of being
mean, so you may not want to go with my version). I'd go with something like:
Student,
All assignments for this course must be submitted to Canvas. The next assignment (XXX) is due on DATE at TIME to the DROPBOX.
Professor L_D
I tried fishbrains' version once in a similar situation, and the student wrote back "You
can make this accommodation; you are just refusing to help me.
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 20, 2021, 11:48:37 AM
From Stu who always waits until the last minute to submit assignments, in response to my reminder that assignments should be submitted on Canvas and that I do not open attachments or click on links sent by students:
"..please make accommodations in my case, I'm sure if I asked the entire class if it was fair they would say yes."
Stu, your classmates do not get to decide course policies. A class is not a democracy.
Suggestions for a response would be greatly appreciated.
Sometimes I find it more effective to just end the conversation without specifically responding to whatever whacky request that a student makes."
"Assignments are due at such and such time. Please refer to the course syllabus if you have further questions about course policies."
Thanks, all. Will refer Stu to the syllabus. Stu got a pass earlier on a plagiarized assignment, and kept trying to negotiate until I told Stu to accept the zero or the decision by the academic integrity office.
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 20, 2021, 12:36:11 PM
Thanks, all. Will refer Stu to the syllabus. Stu got a pass earlier on a plagiarized assignment, and kept trying to negotiate until I told Stu to accept the zero or the decision by the academic integrity office.
Had a similar situation. Thought the student understood I was giving them a second chance by not reporting it and only giving a zero but turns out they went higher up and administration decided to back the student up since I didn't report it to the academic integrity office. Student's grade was changed and I learned a lot about the administration at my school that day.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on February 20, 2021, 09:03:19 AM
AR, I am happy to reply to your students for you!
Student #1,
No.
--AR
Student #2,
No.
--AR
Done! Now turn off your email for the weekend!
Thanks, OneMoreYear!
AR.
Student emails explaining their poor performance is due to social anxiety with Zoom.
But it is an asynchronous class. We don't use Zoom.
Quote from: downer on February 25, 2021, 06:48:50 AM
Student emails explaining their poor performance is due to social anxiety with Zoom.
But it is an asynchronous class. We don't use Zoom.
I guess it's a boilerplate email that all the profs. of this student received.
I don't understand.
Why would there be social anxiety regarding Zoom? They could turn their camera off or choose the "hide my image" feature if they can't bear to look at themselves.
Quote from: downer on February 25, 2021, 06:48:50 AM
Student emails explaining their poor performance is due to social anxiety with Zoom.
But it is an asynchronous class. We don't use Zoom.
Wow, they are going to really hate in-person classes.
But in seriousness, I'd get them in contact with the counseling center. It's going to be a rough rest of this academic year if they don't figure out how to participate.
I also agree that they probably sent the exact message to all of their instructors.
Student emailed me at 6:30 tonight to request a zoom meeting to go over the lab from last Monday, before it is due this Monday.
Um, no. Not meeting with you on the weekend. Especially this weekend, where I am doing family stuff and NOT working.
Perhaps you should have done this sooner?
Quote from: FishProf on February 26, 2021, 03:48:51 PM
Student emailed me at 6:30 tonight to request a zoom meeting to go over the lab from last Monday, before it is due this Monday.
Um, no. Not meeting with you on the weekend. Especially this weekend, where I am doing family stuff and NOT working.
Perhaps you should have done this sooner?
I am curious: how exactly would you tell this student that you are not meeting with them over the weekend? The student will write in their evaluation that "Dr. FishProf refused to meet with me when I needed help with the lab assignment".
Last semester, I made the mistake of scheduling a Zoom meeting with a student on a Saturday. The following Friday, the student insisted on another meeting during the weekend. I referred Stu to the course policies (email responses M-F) and that the Saturday meeting was a privilege because professors typically do not schedule Zoom meetings during weekends just as they wouldn't make a trip to campus to meet with students who were taking classes on campus (pardon the convoluted sentence--it's been a long day).
ETA: I would meet (Zoom) with students during office hours as well as at other times. I also scheduled 30-minute sessions with each student just to "meet" them.This was an entitled student who complained about everything--assignments, grading policies, and everything Stu could think of.
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 26, 2021, 04:33:50 PM
Last semester, I made the mistake of scheduling a Zoom meeting with a student on a Saturday. The following Friday, the student insisted on another meeting during the weekend. I referred Stu to the course policies (email responses M-F) and that the Saturday meeting was a privilege because professors typically do not schedule Zoom meetings during weekends just as they wouldn't make a trip to campus to meet with students who were taking classes on campus (pardon the convoluted sentence--it's been a long day).
I totally get your point, but I do not think students would care much. They have a problem, they request help, and they want it right away. And if they complain to the admins, who care about their customers, I do not think the admins will care much about the fact that it was a weekend either. At least, this is what I believe would happen at my institution.
I had a student email me wanting to meet with me on video during office hours.
I wrote back saying I don't have office hours and answered their questions in 3 lines anyway.
Quote from: downer on February 26, 2021, 04:43:58 PM
I had a student email me wanting to meet with me on video during office hours.
I wrote back saying I don't have office hours and answered their questions in 3 lines anyway.
That's generous of you. Email takes time and it's neither prep time nor grading time. It's an extra thing that the school squeezes out of you illicitly. But I don't blame you for doing it. Well preforming students are easier to deal with than weaker ones.
Many years ago, early evening on Friday before the Labor Day weekend, I got an email from a student who wanted to change sections. Stu demanded that I come to campus during the weekend because the add/drop deadline was either on Saturday or the following Tuesday. Email, timestamped after business hours on Friday, asked me to come to campus to sign Stu's add slip, and contained the sentence "Please work with me ASAP to make this possible". In addition to a long drive, the trip also included a $6 toll each way. Needless to say, I responded to Stu's email on Tuesday morning and agreed to meet with Stu. No response from Stu.
Quote from: research_prof on February 26, 2021, 03:51:47 PM
I am curious: how exactly would you tell this student that you are not meeting with them over the weekend? The student will write in their evaluation that "Dr. FishProf refused to meet with me when I needed help with the lab assignment".
I don't know how Dr. FishProf would do this, and I imagine it would depend on the school culture and the expectations.
At my current job, I would reply sometime Saturday, along the lines of "Dear Stu, I would be happy to discuss the lab with you during office hours on Monday. However, since the lab is due before class time, I would recommend XYZ [reading the text, going over notes, visiting the tutoring service, etc.]. In future, I recommend looking over assignments by Thursday so that you will have time to attend my office hours on Friday mornings if you have a questions."
At other jobs, one could just reply on the Monday morning, as Langue_doc illustrates.
AR.
Downer is an adjunct though, so he/she is vulnerable to being faulted on student evaluations for not doing something that the student has not been told is not legitimately part of his job in the first place. That's different.
Quote from: research_prof on February 26, 2021, 03:51:47 PM
Quote from: FishProf on February 26, 2021, 03:48:51 PM
Student emailed me at 6:30 tonight to request a zoom meeting to go over the lab from last Monday, before it is due this Monday.
Um, no. Not meeting with you on the weekend. Especially this weekend, where I am doing family stuff and NOT working.
Perhaps you should have done this sooner?
I am curious: how exactly would you tell this student that you are not meeting with them over the weekend? The student will write in their evaluation that "Dr. FishProf refused to meet with me when I needed help with the lab assignment".
"Dear student,
I am not available to meet this weekend. Please use the link in the syllabus to schedule a meeting time
Fishprof"
As to the 2nd part - Don't care. Our student evals don't have a place to write comments like that.
Quote from: AvidReader on February 26, 2021, 06:52:52 PM
I don't know how Dr. FishProf would do this, and I imagine it would depend on the school culture and the expectations.
At my current job, I would reply sometime Saturday, along the lines of "Dear Stu, I would be happy to discuss the lab with you during office hours on Monday. However, since the lab is due before class time, I would recommend XYZ [reading the text, going over notes, visiting the tutoring service, etc.]. In future, I recommend looking over assignments by Thursday so that you will have time to attend my office hours on Friday mornings if you have a questions."
At other jobs, one could just reply on the Monday morning, as Langue_doc illustrates.
AR.
If I'm not mistaken, you have posted other examples before and I like the precise, polite way that you write these things. Maybe we should start a pool (thread) in which we collect good responses to common student emails.
Student has been emailing almost daily since the semester began. I'm wondering if they were advised that it is a good idea to ask the professor a lot of questions to show that they are engaged because this student asks the most basic questions! Last night, they copied the instructions for an assignment ("compare this with that") and asked if it meant they are to compare this with that.
I'm getting frustrated. To be fair, the questions are easy to answer so it doesn't take much time. But they are POINTLESS. Instructions state to read chapter seven. Student will email, "am I suppose to read all of chapter seven?"
No, it's a trick assignment. You are actually suppose to read chapter eight. Good job on emailing me and catching that.
Quote from: FishProf on February 27, 2021, 04:04:49 AM
Quote from: research_prof on February 26, 2021, 03:51:47 PM
Quote from: FishProf on February 26, 2021, 03:48:51 PM
Student emailed me at 6:30 tonight to request a zoom meeting to go over the lab from last Monday, before it is due this Monday.
Um, no. Not meeting with you on the weekend. Especially this weekend, where I am doing family stuff and NOT working.
Perhaps you should have done this sooner?
I am curious: how exactly would you tell this student that you are not meeting with them over the weekend? The student will write in their evaluation that "Dr. FishProf refused to meet with me when I needed help with the lab assignment".
"Dear student,
I am not available to meet this weekend. Please use the link in the syllabus to schedule a meeting time
Fishprof"
As to the 2nd part - Don't care. Our student evals don't have a place to write comments like that.
FishProf, I would like to become like you one day. :-) Unfortunately, our evaluations have a "comments" section, where students can and do fire away against faculty pretty frequently. Students believe they are customers because they (at least some of them) pay $$$ to the university, that's why they got to be always right.
Quote from: research_prof on February 27, 2021, 06:09:04 AM
FishProf, I would like to become like you one day. :-) Unfortunately, our evaluations have a "comments" section, where students can and do fire away against faculty pretty frequently. Students believe they are customers because they (at least some of them) pay $$$ to the university, that's why they got to be always right.
Same with ours. So (if it's permissible to discuss experiences peculiar to the non-tenure track in response to a post by downer, the adjunct, about his experience - perhaps eigen won't mind) it's quite a leap of faith to suppose that the chair has your back when reading criticisms of the sort mentioned herein. Especially if they've already outed themselves for being pissed that have newly recognized bargaining unit. Better be available on weekends, paid or not, if you want to keep you job.
Something I suspect rarely occurs to the tenure track. When the provost is pissed at you for having a faculty union, the chair takes the side of the faculty and the union. But when the provost is pissed at the adjunct faculty as a group, the chair can take either side.
Quote from: Charlotte on February 27, 2021, 05:49:00 AM
Student has been emailing almost daily since the semester began. I'm wondering if they were advised that it is a good idea to ask the professor a lot of questions to show that they are engaged because this student asks the most basic questions! Last night, they copied the instructions for an assignment ("compare this with that") and asked if it meant they are to compare this with that.
I'm getting frustrated. To be fair, the questions are easy to answer so it doesn't take much time. But they are POINTLESS. Instructions state to read chapter seven. Student will email, "am I suppose to read all of chapter seven?"
No, it's a trick assignment. You are actually suppose to read chapter eight. Good job on emailing me and catching that.
Some of my students approach emails as if they were texting, right down to the "I'm sorry that I'm emailing you at 2am." As others have pointed out in other threads, some of the constant stream of questions is part of their texting culture -- one question at a time, in order, until everything is understood.
When I feel like a student is winding up for a whole slew of messages, I try to cut them off at the pass: "It seems that you might have a lot of questions about this assignment. I suggest that you carefully read the assignment sheet and complete the assignment to the best of your ability. If you still have questions, I will answer them when I return to the office on Monday morning."
Quote from: Charlotte on February 27, 2021, 05:42:50 AM
If I'm not mistaken, you have posted other examples before and I like the precise, polite way that you write these things. Maybe we should start a pool (thread) in which we collect good responses to common student emails.
Thank you, Charlotte! Most of my "precise, polite" responses have been developed from having read the old and new Fora for (I think?) more than a decade now. I've learned a lot about tone from the wise people here and of yore.
AR.
Quote from: Charlotte on February 27, 2021, 05:49:00 AM
Student has been emailing almost daily since the semester began. I'm wondering if they were advised that it is a good idea to ask the professor a lot of questions to show that they are engaged because this student asks the most basic questions! Last night, they copied the instructions for an assignment ("compare this with that") and asked if it meant they are to compare this with that.
I'm getting frustrated. To be fair, the questions are easy to answer so it doesn't take much time. But they are POINTLESS. Instructions state to read chapter seven. Student will email, "am I suppose to read all of chapter seven?"
No, it's a trick assignment. You are actually suppose to read chapter eight. Good job on emailing me and catching that.
I mostly see these early in the semester, perhaps because the first time they get a "Yes, that is correct." between salutation & signature. Subsequent such emails only get a "Yes."
Quote from: mahagonny on February 27, 2021, 06:46:54 AM
Quote from: research_prof on February 27, 2021, 06:09:04 AM
FishProf, I would like to become like you one day. :-) Unfortunately, our evaluations have a "comments" section, where students can and do fire away against faculty pretty frequently. Students believe they are customers because they (at least some of them) pay $$$ to the university, that's why they got to be always right.
Same with ours. So (if it's permissible to discuss experiences peculiar to the non-tenure track in response to a post by downer, the adjunct, about his experience - perhaps eigen won't mind) it's quite a leap of faith to suppose that the chair has your back when reading criticisms of the sort mentioned herein. Especially if they've already outed themselves for being pissed that have newly recognized bargaining unit. Better be available on weekends, paid or not, if you want to keep you job.
Something I suspect rarely occurs to the tenure track. When the provost is pissed at you for having a faculty union, the chair takes the side of the faculty and the union. But when the provost is pissed at the adjunct faculty as a group, the chair can take either side.
Former adjunct and current full-time but contingent faculty here.
It's been my experience at every university at which I've taught (7 so far) that the key with students is to set expectations. My syllabus says that I reply to emails within 24 hours. When I teach in person, I tell students on the first day of class that I go to bed at 7 p.m. (a total lie) and that I get up early and check emails first thing in the morning (pretty much true). In past semesters I have told students that one day a week was my technology-free day (also a lie, but not where teaching duties were concerned) and that I would only check emails once that day in case they had emergencies. When my first major deadline comes around, I remind them that the deadline is midnight and that I go to bed at 7 p.m. and have them figure out when they need to have enough done on the assignment that they can email me if they get stuck and have a response in good time. Later, when students complain about my lack of responses at odd hours, other students are usually quick to say "but prof. goes to bed at 7! Of course you didn't get a reply . . ."
I have found this a hundred times harder, if not impossible, in the COVID time: there is no communal space in which I see all the students at once, and the students emailing at odd hours and annoyed about "slow" responses are unlikely to have come to class, done the work, and watched the explanatory videos. When they refuse to engage with the materials provided, there is no reasonable way to set expectations. I haven't seen enough evaluations yet to know how hard this will hit.
Oddly enough, despite all this, the strain on my email at the moment comes from my dept. chair and former course coordinator, who routinely email outside business hours and ask for immediate responses. Some of these are due to circumstances outside their control; others are not.
AR.
Quote from: Charlotte on February 27, 2021, 05:49:00 AM
Student has been emailing almost daily since the semester began. I'm wondering if they were advised that it is a good idea to ask the professor a lot of questions to show that they are engaged because this student asks the most basic questions! Last night, they copied the instructions for an assignment ("compare this with that") and asked if it meant they are to compare this with that.
I'm getting frustrated. To be fair, the questions are easy to answer so it doesn't take much time. But they are POINTLESS. Instructions state to read chapter seven. Student will email, "am I suppose to read all of chapter seven?"
No, it's a trick assignment. You are actually suppose to read chapter eight. Good job on emailing me and catching that.
I have a discussion forum on the LMS for questions about the course and tell students to post their questions there. They can answer each other's questions and get some minimal credit for participation if that helps. I visit once a day and answer the unanswered questions.
For routine questions emailed to me, I reply telling students to post on the LMS.
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on February 27, 2021, 07:06:54 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on February 27, 2021, 05:49:00 AM
No, it's a trick assignment. You are actually suppose to read chapter eight. Good job on emailing me and catching that.
I mostly see these early in the semester, perhaps because the first time they get a "Yes, that is correct." between salutation & signature. Subsequent such emails only get a "Yes."
Last week, I told students to upload as much of their essays as they had written to a discussion board for peer review. Two separate students emailed to ask what "as much as [they] had written" meant. [What they really meant was "how much should I write at the last minute to so I can get points for submitting work?]
One thing you could try for readings is to put the page numbers in brackets: Chapter 7 (pages 33-45).
AR.
Quote from: mahagonny on February 27, 2021, 06:46:54 AM
Quote from: research_prof on February 27, 2021, 06:09:04 AM
FishProf, I would like to become like you one day. :-) Unfortunately, our evaluations have a "comments" section, where students can and do fire away against faculty pretty frequently. Students believe they are customers because they (at least some of them) pay $$$ to the university, that's why they got to be always right.
Same with ours. So (if it's permissible to discuss experiences peculiar to the non-tenure track in response to a post by downer, the adjunct, about his experience - perhaps eigen won't mind) it's quite a leap of faith to suppose that the chair has your back when reading criticisms of the sort mentioned herein. Especially if they've already outed themselves for being pissed that have newly recognized bargaining unit. Better be available on weekends, paid or not, if you want to keep you job.
Something I suspect rarely occurs to the tenure track. When the provost is pissed at you for having a faculty union, the chair takes the side of the faculty and the union. But when the provost is pissed at the adjunct faculty as a group, the chair can take either side.
For starters, I am the chair. But I will (and have) backed any faculty member who draws a reasonable boundary. I put it in my syllabus and encourage my faculty to do the same.
Bear in mind, I am saying I won't schedule a Zoom meeting on the weekend, not that I don't respond at all.
Quote from: FishProf on February 27, 2021, 07:55:20 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on February 27, 2021, 06:46:54 AM
Quote from: research_prof on February 27, 2021, 06:09:04 AM
FishProf, I would like to become like you one day. :-) Unfortunately, our evaluations have a "comments" section, where students can and do fire away against faculty pretty frequently. Students believe they are customers because they (at least some of them) pay $$$ to the university, that's why they got to be always right.
Same with ours. So (if it's permissible to discuss experiences peculiar to the non-tenure track in response to a post by downer, the adjunct, about his experience - perhaps eigen won't mind) it's quite a leap of faith to suppose that the chair has your back when reading criticisms of the sort mentioned herein. Especially if they've already outed themselves for being pissed that have newly recognized bargaining unit. Better be available on weekends, paid or not, if you want to keep you job.
Something I suspect rarely occurs to the tenure track. When the provost is pissed at you for having a faculty union, the chair takes the side of the faculty and the union. But when the provost is pissed at the adjunct faculty as a group, the chair can take either side.
For starters, I am the chair. But I will (and have) backed any faculty member who draws a reasonable boundary. I put it in my syllabus and encourage my faculty to do the same.
Bear in mind, I am saying I won't schedule a Zoom meeting on the weekend, not that I don't respond at all.
Well, and you're probably not in a toxic department like the one I was in. I was giving a worst case scenario, but I have no reason to believe it is rare.
Quote from: AvidReader on February 27, 2021, 07:29:52 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on February 27, 2021, 06:46:54 AM
Quote from: research_prof on February 27, 2021, 06:09:04 AM
FishProf, I would like to become like you one day. :-) Unfortunately, our evaluations have a "comments" section, where students can and do fire away against faculty pretty frequently. Students believe they are customers because they (at least some of them) pay $$$ to the university, that's why they got to be always right.
Same with ours. So (if it's permissible to discuss experiences peculiar to the non-tenure track in response to a post by downer, the adjunct, about his experience - perhaps eigen won't mind) it's quite a leap of faith to suppose that the chair has your back when reading criticisms of the sort mentioned herein. Especially if they've already outed themselves for being pissed that have newly recognized bargaining unit. Better be available on weekends, paid or not, if you want to keep you job.
Something I suspect rarely occurs to the tenure track. When the provost is pissed at you for having a faculty union, the chair takes the side of the faculty and the union. But when the provost is pissed at the adjunct faculty as a group, the chair can take either side.
Former adjunct and current full-time but contingent faculty here.
It's been my experience at every university at which I've taught (7 so far) that the key with students is to set expectations. My syllabus says that I reply to emails within 24 hours. When I teach in person, I tell students on the first day of class that I go to bed at 7 p.m. (a total lie) and that I get up early and check emails first thing in the morning (pretty much true). In past semesters I have told students that one day a week was my technology-free day (also a lie, but not where teaching duties were concerned) and that I would only check emails once that day in case they had emergencies. When my first major deadline comes around, I remind them that the deadline is midnight and that I go to bed at 7 p.m. and have them figure out when they need to have enough done on the assignment that they can email me if they get stuck and have a response in good time. Later, when students complain about my lack of responses at odd hours, other students are usually quick to say "but prof. goes to bed at 7! Of course you didn't get a reply . . ."
I have found this a hundred times harder, if not impossible, in the COVID time: there is no communal space in which I see all the students at once, and the students emailing at odd hours and annoyed about "slow" responses are unlikely to have come to class, done the work, and watched the explanatory videos. When they refuse to engage with the materials provided, there is no reasonable way to set expectations. I haven't seen enough evaluations yet to know how hard this will hit.
Oddly enough, despite all this, the strain on my email at the moment comes from my dept. chair and former course coordinator, who routinely email outside business hours and ask for immediate responses. Some of these are due to circumstances outside their control; others are not.
AR.
We don't get to write our own syllabus. There's nothing in the syllabus about office hour consultation and the students don't know we are adjunct unless we tell them. So if office hours availability is considered a norm, then....
on edit: I've read the self-study done by the then department chair and his team, which was submitted for acceditation. In it they describe how in their view they've had myriad problems with adjunct faculty over years.
Nope, not toxic. And adjuncts are paid well and are part of the union and we have a good contract. I have no reason to believe my world is rare, or common. I have no basis on which to make that determination.
I don't doubt your experience, however.
As someone else wrote, or implied, "Put it in the syllabus, clearly." The repeat as needed. Set the expectations and then meet them. Don't kill yourself trying to meet someone else's expectations.
Quote from: FishProf on February 27, 2021, 07:55:20 AM
Bear in mind, I am saying I won't schedule a Zoom meeting on the weekend, not that I don't respond at all.
I tend to triage emails. If someone writes me with something time sensitive (the quiz on the LMS isn't working) I write back and address it as soon as I possibly can. If I don't deal with something like that, it is likely to be more of a headache later. If the question is very easy to answer, I will also often respond right away, if it is convenient for me to do so. The things that I don't feel any obligation to respond to quickly are things that are non-urgent, but also will take some time to deal with, like students who think there's some sort of minor error in their attendance or quiz grades.
I probably should set up better systems, however, where I have some sort of canned reply I can send from my phone when I get one of these non urgent requests saying that I will look into it when I get the chance and get back to them about it and then I could move it into a folder of student stuff to address.
Quote from: Caracal on February 27, 2021, 08:45:39 AM
I tend to triage emails. If someone writes me with something time sensitive (the quiz on the LMS isn't working) I write back and address it as soon as I possibly can. If I don't deal with something like that, it is likely to be more of a headache later. If the question is very easy to answer, I will also often respond right away, if it is convenient for me to do so. The things that I don't feel any obligation to respond to quickly are things that are non-urgent, but also will take some time to deal with, like students who think there's some sort of minor error in their attendance or quiz grades.
Ditto. The other ones that I'll respond to on my own time are students who are asking great questions where it is a pleasure to answer.
Quote from: mahagonny on February 27, 2021, 06:46:54 AM
Quote from: research_prof on February 27, 2021, 06:09:04 AM
FishProf, I would like to become like you one day. :-) Unfortunately, our evaluations have a "comments" section, where students can and do fire away against faculty pretty frequently. Students believe they are customers because they (at least some of them) pay $$$ to the university, that's why they got to be always right.
Same with ours. So (if it's permissible to discuss experiences peculiar to the non-tenure track in response to a post by downer, the adjunct, about his experience - perhaps eigen won't mind) it's quite a leap of faith to suppose that the chair has your back when reading criticisms of the sort mentioned herein. Especially if they've already outed themselves for being pissed that have newly recognized bargaining unit. Better be available on weekends, paid or not, if you want to keep you job.
Something I suspect rarely occurs to the tenure track. When the provost is pissed at you for having a faculty union, the chair takes the side of the faculty and the union. But when the provost is pissed at the adjunct faculty as a group, the chair can take either side.
I am a TT faculty, but I do not think my chair or my dean for that matter have my back when they read students' complaints about my courses.
Quote from: research_prof on February 27, 2021, 09:11:06 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on February 27, 2021, 06:46:54 AM
Quote from: research_prof on February 27, 2021, 06:09:04 AM
FishProf, I would like to become like you one day. :-) Unfortunately, our evaluations have a "comments" section, where students can and do fire away against faculty pretty frequently. Students believe they are customers because they (at least some of them) pay $$$ to the university, that's why they got to be always right.
Same with ours. So (if it's permissible to discuss experiences peculiar to the non-tenure track in response to a post by downer, the adjunct, about his experience - perhaps eigen won't mind) it's quite a leap of faith to suppose that the chair has your back when reading criticisms of the sort mentioned herein. Especially if they've already outed themselves for being pissed that have newly recognized bargaining unit. Better be available on weekends, paid or not, if you want to keep you job.
Something I suspect rarely occurs to the tenure track. When the provost is pissed at you for having a faculty union, the chair takes the side of the faculty and the union. But when the provost is pissed at the adjunct faculty as a group, the chair can take either side.
I am a TT faculty, but I do not think my chair or my dean for that matter have my back when they read students' complaints about my courses.
On the old forum a tenured poster named Vox Principalis asked 'why would you even read course/instructor evaluations after you get tenure?'
on edit: at the same time my impression has been one of the functions of the tenure track faculty union some places has been to protect them from each other.
Quote from: research_prof on February 27, 2021, 09:11:06 AM
I am a TT faculty, but I do not think my chair or my dean for that matter have my back when they read students' complaints about my courses.
Honest question: What would it mean to you that your chair "has your back"?
Quote from: FishProf on February 27, 2021, 11:42:19 AM
Quote from: research_prof on February 27, 2021, 09:11:06 AM
I am a TT faculty, but I do not think my chair or my dean for that matter have my back when they read students' complaints about my courses.
Honest question: What would it mean to you that your chair "has your back"?
Probably be able to evaluate if a student's complaint is legitimate or not. A complaint like "this professor demonstrated a harassing behavior throughout the semester" is different than a comment saying "the assignments were tough". The former is something that should be further investigated, but I would expect in the latter case to understand that students do not want to do the work and that's why they complain about the assignments, so the problem is not with the faculty but with the students. But this will not happen, because as I said students are the university's customers and we need to keep them happy.
Quote from: FishProf on February 27, 2021, 08:06:55 AM
Nope, not toxic. And adjuncts are paid well and are part of the union and we have a good contract. I have no reason to believe my world is rare, or common. I have no basis on which to make that determination.
It's quite common. Whatever your adjuncts think of their work conditions, the world according to tenure track faculty as regards treatment of adjunct and especially those more on the administration side such as yourself is frequently as you describe. 'Specially on a public forum.
Quote from: research_prof on February 27, 2021, 02:18:18 PM
Quote from: FishProf on February 27, 2021, 11:42:19 AM
Quote from: research_prof on February 27, 2021, 09:11:06 AM
I am a TT faculty, but I do not think my chair or my dean for that matter have my back when they read students' complaints about my courses.
Honest question: What would it mean to you that your chair "has your back"?
Probably be able to evaluate if a student's complaint is legitimate or not. A complaint like "this professor demonstrated a harassing behavior throughout the semester" is different than a comment saying "the assignments were tough". The former is something that should be further investigated, but I would expect in the latter case to understand that students do not want to do the work and that's why they complain about the assignments, so the problem is not with the faculty but with the students. But this will not happen, because as I said students are the university's customers and we need to keep them happy.
In our case, if anyone's wondering, 'having your back' would mean, at minimum, telling the students the same thing the administration tells the adjunct union during negotiations, namely that adjuncts do not do office hour service. That way students would not be expecting it, and would not be thinking of it when filling out the comments section of the evaluation forms.
Quote from: mahagonny on February 27, 2021, 02:25:01 PM
Quote from: research_prof on February 27, 2021, 02:18:18 PM
Quote from: FishProf on February 27, 2021, 11:42:19 AM
Quote from: research_prof on February 27, 2021, 09:11:06 AM
I am a TT faculty, but I do not think my chair or my dean for that matter have my back when they read students' complaints about my courses.
Honest question: What would it mean to you that your chair "has your back"?
Probably be able to evaluate if a student's complaint is legitimate or not. A complaint like "this professor demonstrated a harassing behavior throughout the semester" is different than a comment saying "the assignments were tough". The former is something that should be further investigated, but I would expect in the latter case to understand that students do not want to do the work and that's why they complain about the assignments, so the problem is not with the faculty but with the students. But this will not happen, because as I said students are the university's customers and we need to keep them happy.
In our case, if anyone's wondering, 'having your back' would mean, at minimum, telling the students the same thing the administration tells the adjunct union during negotiations, namely that adjuncts do not do office hour service. That way students would not be expecting it, and would not be thinking of it when filling out the comments section of the evaluation forms.
Students don't tend to know or care about the employment status of their instructors. I'm lucky enough to teach at one school and so I think I'm about as available to meet as the permanent faculty members. I can see how it would be more difficult if you were teaching at multiple schools.
As an aside, I wonder if this is something where the pandemic might have changed things. If I'm back on campus in the fall, I'll probably have some meetings on Zoom. Individual Zoom meetings work fine, and would mean that I don't have to try to cram every student meeting in between classes on my teaching days. I'd assume it would be particularly useful for people teaching at multiple schools.
Maybe I am not paying sufficient attention to my student's needs, but I've never had a student question that couldn't be answered in an email. So I don't really see the need for individual Zoom meetings.
There have been a handful of occasions in the last 10 years where I have had phone conversations with students about their personal situations, and sometimes it might be more personal to interact live with someone. But even there, it doesn't seem really necessary.
Quote from: downer on February 28, 2021, 10:42:22 AM
Maybe I am not paying sufficient attention to my student's needs, but I've never had a student question that couldn't be answered in an email. So I don't really see the need for individual Zoom meetings.
There have been a handful of occasions in the last 10 years where I have had phone conversations with students about their personal situations, and sometimes it might be more personal to interact live with someone. But even there, it doesn't seem really necessary.
I routinely warn my students -- and colleagues -- that our email is not confidential. It is all archived, and subject to FOI requests.
Quote from: dr_codex on February 28, 2021, 01:33:32 PM
Quote from: downer on February 28, 2021, 10:42:22 AM
Maybe I am not paying sufficient attention to my student's needs, but I've never had a student question that couldn't be answered in an email. So I don't really see the need for individual Zoom meetings.
There have been a handful of occasions in the last 10 years where I have had phone conversations with students about their personal situations, and sometimes it might be more personal to interact live with someone. But even there, it doesn't seem really necessary.
I routinely warn my students -- and colleagues -- that our email is not confidential. It is all archived, and subject to FOI requests.
As someone else pointed out on the thread about giving out your personal number, that might be seen to be an advantage. It is good to have a record of all interactions with students. These days there are good reasons to worry when students start disclosing confidential info to you. And faculty certainly don't want to be disclosing confidential info to students.
Quote from: research_prof on February 27, 2021, 02:18:18 PM
Quote from: FishProf on February 27, 2021, 11:42:19 AM
Quote from: research_prof on February 27, 2021, 09:11:06 AM
I am a TT faculty, but I do not think my chair or my dean for that matter have my back when they read students' complaints about my courses.
Honest question: What would it mean to you that your chair "has your back"?
Probably be able to evaluate if a student's complaint is legitimate or not. A complaint like "this professor demonstrated a harassing behavior throughout the semester" is different than a comment saying "the assignments were tough". The former is something that should be further investigated, but I would expect in the latter case to understand that students do not want to do the work and that's why they complain about the assignments, so the problem is not with the faculty but with the students. But this will not happen, because as I said students are the university's customers and we need to keep them happy.
That's a pretty low bar. Something akin to:
Protect you faculty by putting out the trivial fires, investigate real concerns, but don't assume guilt on the part of faculty just on student say-so?
Student posting publicly on piazza asking for clarifications regarding midterm questions that essentially give away the answer. Would it be my fault to give him directly 0/100 on his midterm?
Instead, I sent him a private message asking him to delete his questions from the public piazza forum and discuss with us in private, since answering his questions give away parts of the answers. I am waiting for him to delete the questions, otherwise I will do so tomorrow morning. This is something a senior student should be able to understand on his own at this point of his life. How would this student graduate and deal with real life if he cannot even understand what is appropriate and what is inappropriate to ask?
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 26, 2021, 04:33:50 PM
Last semester, I made the mistake of scheduling a Zoom meeting with a student on a Saturday. The following Friday, the student insisted on another meeting during the weekend. I referred Stu to the course policies (email responses M-F) and that the Saturday meeting was a privilege because professors typically do not schedule Zoom meetings during weekends just as they wouldn't make a trip to campus to meet with students who were taking classes on campus (pardon the convoluted sentence--it's been a long day).
ETA: I would meet (Zoom) with students during office hours as well as at other times. I also scheduled 30-minute sessions with each student just to "meet" them.This was an entitled student who complained about everything--assignments, grading policies, and everything Stu could think of.
Unfortunately, faculty who agree to meetings in addition to regularly scheduled office hours unintentionally help create the expectation that
all faculty should be willing to do so.
Student emails me and says she and her group want to meet with me today. Since I don't do group projects, I'm envisioning who this group might be.
Her friends? Her squad?
A group of classmates she has persuaded to band together and complain?
People from the community for support?
I'm intrigued enough to almost do the meeting just to see what this "group" is but schedule won't allow for it. Oh well, she should have read my office hours.
Quote from: Charlotte on March 01, 2021, 04:17:50 AM
Student emails me and says she and her group want to meet with me today. Since I don't do group projects, I'm envisioning who this group might be.
Her friends? Her squad?
A group of classmates she has persuaded to band together and complain?
People from the community for support?
I'm intrigued enough to almost do the meeting just to see what this "group" is but schedule won't allow for it. Oh well, she should have read my office hours.
Students have chat rooms, as I've been discovering. The "group" probably means that a few students in the chat room have decided that your grading policies are unfair or that the course is too difficult and that you should listen to their "collective" wisdom on how to run your course, and of course, give them the grades they want. I would ask for the names and emails of the students in the "group". This semester I had two students in the chat room submit identical assignments. They claimed that they were working on the assignment in their chat room.
Students are registering for Spring classes here. If a student wants to repeat a class, they have to fill out [certain form], someone has to read through and approve or deny each request, and then they get a reply email.
I've had a LOT of emails along these lines:
QuoteHelp! I'm a student trying to re-take [Basketweaving 101]. I filled out the form 5 min ago and still can't register. What am I doing wrong?
The form is a request. Patience. I'm going to suggest that the enrollment folks update the form to include a message about "Expect a reply in 1-2 business days".
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 01, 2021, 05:22:39 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on March 01, 2021, 04:17:50 AM
Student emails me and says she and her group want to meet with me today. Since I don't do group projects, I'm envisioning who this group might be.
Her friends? Her squad?
A group of classmates she has persuaded to band together and complain?
People from the community for support?
I'm intrigued enough to almost do the meeting just to see what this "group" is but schedule won't allow for it. Oh well, she should have read my office hours.
Students have chat rooms, as I've been discovering. The "group" probably means that a few students in the chat room have decided that your grading policies are unfair or that the course is too difficult and that you should listen to their "collective" wisdom on how to run your course, and of course, give them the grades they want. I would ask for the names and emails of the students in the "group". This semester I had two students in the chat room submit identical assignments. They claimed that they were working on the assignment in their chat room.
I'm really hoping the group turns out to be a West Side Story style of gang where they snap menacingly at you.
I had a student email me on Friday telling me that they didn't know what to do in the course. They somehow managed to stumble into completing two assignments (poorly) prior to this communication so I admit I am a little baffled. I responded that they needed to complete the modules and that all of the assignments and projects had due dates, I haven't heard back.
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 01, 2021, 09:45:29 AM
Students are registering for Spring classes here. If a student wants to repeat a class, they have to fill out [certain form], someone has to read through and approve or deny each request, and then they get a reply email.
I've had a LOT of emails along these lines:
QuoteHelp! I'm a student trying to re-take [Basketweaving 101]. I filled out the form 5 min ago and still can't register. What am I doing wrong?
The form is a request. Patience. I'm going to suggest that the enrollment folks update the form to include a message about "Expect a reply in 1-2 business days".
Good lord. If we did that here, it would require hiring another entire staff of admin minions (probably all better paid than I am) to handle the retake requests. Oh-oh. I've probably jinxed it . . . if it shows up on the next BoT agenda, it'll be my fault. :-/
Stu (Email 1): I am moving to [adjacent state] for a family emergency for 3-4 weeks. My advisor said to email my instructors to see if I could do school online while I am away.
Me: Not a problem. You can attend class via Zoom.
Stu (Email 2): Oh, I won't be available during class times or before 6 p.m. any day. Can I make up the class work another way?
Me: Because our class is classified as remedial, attendance is mandatory, so you would need to get administrative approval to miss class.
Stu (Email 3): Oh, 3-4 weeks is too long. I would only need to miss class for a month or so.
??? How long does Stu think a month is?
AR.
Stu probably has to work until 6 PM. Advisor is the one who needs hu's head examined. Most likely Stu told advisor that Stu has to be away for a week.
How about copying advisor or your chair on the email to Stu?
Quote from: AvidReader on March 01, 2021, 12:42:12 PM
Stu (Email 1): I am moving to [adjacent state] for a family emergency for 3-4 weeks. My advisor said to email my instructors to see if I could do school online while I am away.
Me: Not a problem. You can attend class via Zoom.
Stu (Email 2): Oh, I won't be available during class times or before 6 p.m. any day. Can I make up the class work another way?
Me: Because our class is classified as remedial, attendance is mandatory, so you would need to get administrative approval to miss class.
Stu (Email 3): Oh, 3-4 weeks is too long. I would only need to miss class for a month or so.
??? How long does Stu think a month is?
AR.
Better kick that one back to the advisor and up the chain of command. It might be better for the student to take an incomplete or leave of absence. Or see if the university offers any short-term emergency financial assistance. I'm guessing that a family member got laid off and the student is expected to provide childcare and/or an income.
An actual favorite-- senior who graduated in Dec, and who had a really tough final semester with family and health issues, took an incomplete, and squeaked through with a C- in the end, emailed me this today:
QuoteI hope you are doing well. I am so grateful I was able to take your class last semester. Your class has helped me gain a job as a Behavior technician. I really enjoy working with [population]. Being able to take your class introduced me to [topic]. Now I am able to not only work with them but also use the scientific methods I learned in research methods to carry out my own research. Thank you so much for everything.
Made my week!
Quote from: Puget on March 01, 2021, 06:12:34 PM
An actual favorite-- senior who graduated in Dec, and who had a really tough final semester with family and health issues, took an incomplete, and squeaked through with a C- in the end, emailed me this today:
QuoteI hope you are doing well. I am so grateful I was able to take your class last semester. Your class has helped me gain a job as a Behavior technician. I really enjoy working with [population]. Being able to take your class introduced me to [topic]. Now I am able to not only work with them but also use the scientific methods I learned in research methods to carry out my own research. Thank you so much for everything.
Made my week!
Bravo! You have made an impact!
Quote from: Puget on March 01, 2021, 06:12:34 PM
An actual favorite-- senior who graduated in Dec, and who had a really tough final semester with family and health issues, took an incomplete, and squeaked through with a C- in the end, emailed me this today:
QuoteI hope you are doing well. I am so grateful I was able to take your class last semester. Your class has helped me gain a job as a Behavior technician. I really enjoy working with [population]. Being able to take your class introduced me to [topic]. Now I am able to not only work with them but also use the scientific methods I learned in research methods to carry out my own research. Thank you so much for everything.
Made my week!
Cool beans!
This one just in; subject line: Important
Hi , are you able to see what I posted on the discussion because it's just showing a blank screen
Stu, if you are seeing a blank screen, all you have to do is repost your comments. I cannot grade blank screens nor can I wave a magic wand to make your comments visible.
In addition, didn't you read the directions on email protocols about what to include in your subject line, salutations, and signing off?
Student: You told me I had to wait two days before responding to classmates. You wrote, "post replies over a minimum of two days." So I waited the required two days before replying to classmates. Why didn't I get credit?
How does the statement to post replies over a minimum two days mean to wait two days?
Quote from: Charlotte on March 04, 2021, 06:27:42 AM
Student: You told me I had to wait two days before responding to classmates. You wrote, "post replies over a minimum of two days." So I waited the required two days before replying to classmates. Why didn't I get credit?
How does the statement to post replies over a minimum two days mean to wait two days?
My students won't get this. So I have to tell them to post their replies by Day/Time. I assign weekly discussions, the first part of which has to be completed by Wednesday, and the second part, response to a classmate, by Friday. The deadlines are usually 9 PM on Wednesdays and 5 PM on Fridays.
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 04, 2021, 09:13:11 AM
My students won't get this. So I have to tell them to post their replies by Day/Time. I assign weekly discussions, the first part of which has to be completed by Wednesday, and the second part, response to a classmate, by Friday. The deadlines are usually 9 PM on Wednesdays and 5 PM on Fridays.
Yes, I tell them to post their initial post by Wednesday, 11:59pm and then three responses to classmates over a minimum two days. I'm having so many confused students that I'm going to have to figure out how to reword it so it's clear. I'm trying to avoid them posting all their replies the night it's due because there is no class discussion when that happens.
I got tired of students complaining about discussions and trying to avoid them so I did an experimental class this semester and took the discussions out, replacing them with short reflection exercises. Halfway through the semester, I asked the class which they prefer: discussions or reflections. All the students have been in a previous class with discussions so I wanted to see what they thought. Most of the students who responded said they prefer discussions. I was surprised but I've made it an option to switch to discussions for the remainder of the class. They still have some time to decide, but so far about half the class wants to change to discussions.
Please respond to at least n different classmates/posts on at least two different days. All responses should be submitted by [day] at [time].
AR.
I had a student send an email with the body of the email typed into the subject line.
They also sent it to another faculty member who has a first name similar to but not exactly like mine. The colleague was kind enough to forward it to me with some amusement.
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on March 04, 2021, 12:35:57 PM
I had a student send an email with the body of the email typed into the subject line.
One of my senior (in years, not just seniority) colleagues does this regularly. I'm not convinced he really understands the difference between an email and a text message.
Quote from: AvidReader on March 04, 2021, 11:45:26 AM
Please respond to at least n different classmates/posts on at least two different days. All responses should be submitted by [day] at [time].
AR.
Perfect! Thank you! I really need to work on improving/being more concise in my language. I didn't realize how much I needed to work on my writing skills until I began teaching.
Quote from: Charlotte on March 04, 2021, 04:32:46 PM
Quote from: AvidReader on March 04, 2021, 11:45:26 AM
Please respond to at least n different classmates/posts on at least two different days. All responses should be submitted by [day] at [time].
AR.
Perfect! Thank you! I really need to work on improving/being more concise in my language. I didn't realize how much I needed to work on my writing skills until I began teaching.
This is the basis of what Murphy, (of "Murphy's Law" fame), meant. If there is a way that it's
possible for something to be done wrong,
eventually someone will find it. I've been writing lab instructions for over 30 years, and I've gotten better at it, but it's still nowhere close to a given that my instructions will be understood by everyone.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 05, 2021, 04:12:26 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on March 04, 2021, 04:32:46 PM
Quote from: AvidReader on March 04, 2021, 11:45:26 AM
Please respond to at least n different classmates/posts on at least two different days. All responses should be submitted by [day] at [time].
AR.
Perfect! Thank you! I really need to work on improving/being more concise in my language. I didn't realize how much I needed to work on my writing skills until I began teaching.
This is the basis of what Murphy, (of "Murphy's Law" fame), meant. If there is a way that it's possible for something to be done wrong, eventually someone will find it. I've been writing lab instructions for over 30 years, and I've gotten better at it, but it's still nowhere close to a given that my instructions will be understood by everyone.
When I have a syllabus that doesn't need to be updated to close another "loophole for the stupid" I will have found the Holy Grail and shall retire.
It doesn't look likely anytime soon.
Quote from: Charlotte on March 04, 2021, 04:32:46 PM
Quote from: AvidReader on March 04, 2021, 11:45:26 AM
Please respond to at least n different classmates/posts on at least two different days. All responses should be submitted by [day] at [time].
AR.
Perfect! Thank you! I really need to work on improving/being more concise in my language. I didn't realize how much I needed to work on my writing skills until I began teaching.
Speaking of loopholes, I realized after I wrote this that it needs the word "total" somewhere so they know they don't need to respond to
n each day. I'd add it after classmates/posts. Otherwise, you'll have students emailing you about it!
AR.
FishProf:
QuoteWhen I have a syllabus that doesn't need to be updated to close another "loophole for the stupid" I will have found the Holy Grail and shall retire.
It doesn't look likely anytime soon.
is epic. I want to cross stitch that on a pillow. Do we still have a hall of fame?
(... I am new to quoting in fora. Be kind, please)
Quote from: WidgetWoman on March 05, 2021, 07:56:53 AM
FishProf: QuoteWhen I have a syllabus that doesn't need to be updated to close another "loophole for the stupid" I will have found the Holy Grail and shall retire.
It doesn't look likely anytime soon.
is epic. I want to cross stitch that on a pillow. Do we still have a hall of fame?
(... I am new to quoting in fora. Be kind, please)
There's a "Posting Hall of Fame Thread."
And I agree, that would be a nice x stitch.
From Stu who is still lost:
"I was also wondering what your office hours are and if we could schedule a meeting."
Stu, read the syllabus and the weekly announcements reminding the class about office hours. This is mid-semester. No, there is no extra credit. "Extra" means "in addition to", and not "give me an easy assignment because I'm failing the class".
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on March 01, 2021, 10:54:29 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on March 01, 2021, 04:17:50 AM
Student emails me and says she and her group want to meet with me today. Since I don't do group projects, I'm envisioning who this group might be.
I'm really hoping the group turns out to be a West Side Story style of gang where they snap menacingly at you.
Update: student didn't show for the scheduled meeting but came in an hour later with a couple other classmates. They all waited around as if they expected me to do the talking. After a few prompts from me, (you had some questions about the class? So what did you want to talk about?) they finally asked a couple small questions that were already answered in the assignment instructions.
How long does the paper need to be? Can I write opinion in the section that clearly states no opinion is allowed in this section?
After more silence, I finally said to feel free to send me an email if they have additional questions and to have a great weekend. They said thank you and wandered out.
Weirdest meeting I've ever had. I'm wondering if they were planning to complain and got too nervous so they didn't follow through. My colleague next door even commented on what a strange meeting it was!
Student lab report:
"The insane current across the circuit..."
Gotta' wonder what the student was thinking here.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on March 06, 2021, 11:16:19 AM
Student lab report:
"The insane current across the circuit..."
Gotta' wonder what the student was thinking here.
Well, current is symbol i and inline doesn't really work so autocomplete of insane is accepted.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on March 06, 2021, 11:16:19 AM
Student lab report:
"The insane current across the circuit..."
Gotta' wonder what the student was thinking here.
Student was aware of using way more current there than was a good idea?
I think it was a translation error, but still funny to think about 'insane current.'
Students are registering for Spring quarter classes.
So.
Many.
Emails.
We had to cut the number of labs in the non-majors classes so the waitlists are HUGE. I'm talking 50+ students waiting to get in to a lab class with 24 seats. If you're in the top 5 or so on the waitlist, you're pretty likely to get a seat. If you're 5-10, it's possible, but not likely. The rest of the students just need to sign up for something else, especially the freshmen who are registering last and are trying to finish their general graduation requirements early. I'm going to ask if we can chop the waitlists from 99 seats (why?!) to something more reasonable like 10. This is just bonkers.
Email from Stu three weeks ago claiming Stu is having a mental breakdown because nothing Stu does in my class is good enough.
I respond, recommending that Stu talk to one of the counselors and also list reasons why Stu's grade is what it is. I suggest that Stu read the directions for the assignments, review my feedback, and incorporate feedback in revised assignments. I also recommend weekly sessions at the Writing Center.
Stu emails me two weeks later informing me that Stu's mental health is declining because Stu finds this class (and only this class) stressful. I respond, once again recommending that Stu contact one of the counselors immediately, and then point out that revised assignments are identical to those with feedback and that Stu has not followed any of my recommendations. As of yesterday, Stu is thinking of getting help from the Writing Center.
I copy one of the higher-ups on my responses to Stu, but guess who Stu is going to blame for Stu's performance or the lack thereof in my class?
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 12, 2021, 10:43:05 AM
Email from Stu three weeks ago claiming Stu is having a mental breakdown because nothing Stu does in my class is good enough.
I respond, recommending that Stu talk to one of the counselors and also list reasons why Stu's grade is what it is. I suggest that Stu read the directions for the assignments, review my feedback, and incorporate feedback in revised assignments. I also recommend weekly sessions at the Writing Center.
Stu emails me two weeks later informing me that Stu's mental health is declining because Stu finds this class (and only this class) stressful. I respond, once again recommending that Stu contact one of the counselors immediately, and then point out that revised assignments are identical to those with feedback and that Stu has not followed any of my recommendations. As of yesterday, Stu is thinking of getting help from the Writing Center.
I copy one of the higher-ups on my responses to Stu, but guess who Stu is going to blame for Stu's performance or the lack thereof in my class?
Stu is going to blame you (the instructor) as usual.
This is a new one for me: student just sent me an email with this format:
Hey Dr. Avid Reader,
[email text]
Warm regards,
Dr. Avid Reader.
AR.
I keep getting repetitious requests from a student to meet with me concerning his grade.
But he never responds to any of the meeting times that I give him.
Instead, he just ignore those messages and keeps making more meeting requests. I feel like I am talking to a computer program and not an actual person.
"I know some professors give us the option to retake exams by allowing us to take it more then once, thank you."
I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.
I think you know the problem just as well as I do.
This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardise it.
Me (CCing our admin team): Dear student, in your circumstances I recommend you do [X]. I've CCed our admin team, who can help you with the logistics of [X].
Student (replying to me alone): Dear ergative, I don't understand, how do I get in touch with the admin team?
Quote from: Aster on March 30, 2021, 07:09:50 AM
I keep getting repetitious requests from a student to meet with me concerning his grade.
But he never responds to any of the meeting times that I give him.
Instead, he just ignore those messages and keeps making more meeting requests. I feel like I am talking to a computer program and not an actual person.
Bet those requests are dictated by his coach or his parents and he doesn't actually want to meet.
Quote from: kiana on March 30, 2021, 11:20:45 AM
Quote from: Aster on March 30, 2021, 07:09:50 AM
I keep getting repetitious requests from a student to meet with me concerning his grade.
But he never responds to any of the meeting times that I give him.
Instead, he just ignore those messages and keeps making more meeting requests. I feel like I am talking to a computer program and not an actual person.
Bet those requests are dictated by his coach or his parents and he doesn't actually want to meet.
Not impossible. I respond to all requests for meetings outside of regularly scheduled office hours with a cut and paste request to "per the syllabus, please send a list of four or five times during normal working hours that would work for you and I will check my calendar"
That way I haven't wasted time looking at my calendar and typing up a list, and the ball in in their court.
Quote from: ergative on March 30, 2021, 09:23:47 AM
Me (CCing our admin team): Dear student, in your circumstances I recommend you do [X]. I've CCed our admin team, who can help you with the logistics of [X].
Student (replying to me alone): Dear ergative, I don't understand, how do I get in touch with the admin team?
LOL
Quote from: research_prof on March 31, 2021, 12:57:28 AM
Quote from: ergative on March 30, 2021, 09:23:47 AM
Me (CCing our admin team): Dear student, in your circumstances I recommend you do [X]. I've CCed our admin team, who can help you with the logistics of [X].
Student (replying to me alone): Dear ergative, I don't understand, how do I get in touch with the admin team?
LOL
I've had variations of the above including a couple this semester.
This week's gem, subject line "Wifi connection":
I am just letting you know as of now, I am out of the country for two weeks. [Two reasons, one of which is something most everyone schedules during long breaks, not during the semester.] I am just letting you know just in case for anything that might happen.
Translation: I'm not going to be submitting assignments or even logging on to Canvas.
Quote from: onthefringe on March 30, 2021, 07:03:16 PM
Not impossible. I respond to all requests for meetings outside of regularly scheduled office hours with a cut and paste request to "per the syllabus, please send a list of four or five times during normal working hours that would work for you and I will check my calendar"
That way I haven't wasted time looking at my calendar and typing up a list, and the ball in in their court.
I like this but I imagine my students would send times for weekends and evenings with the argument that for some those are normal working hours.
Quote from: Charlotte on March 31, 2021, 06:40:18 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on March 30, 2021, 07:03:16 PM
Not impossible. I respond to all requests for meetings outside of regularly scheduled office hours with a cut and paste request to "per the syllabus, please send a list of four or five times during normal working hours that would work for you and I will check my calendar"
That way I haven't wasted time looking at my calendar and typing up a list, and the ball in in their court.
I like this but I imagine my students would send times for weekends and evenings with the argument that for some those are normal working hours.
I use youcanbookme. It syncs to my calendar, so I can block off times when I can't/don't want to meet students. They can then just sign up for a spot, I get an email, they get an email and it goes straight into my calendar.
Quote from: kiana on March 30, 2021, 11:20:45 AM
Quote from: Aster on March 30, 2021, 07:09:50 AM
I keep getting repetitious requests from a student to meet with me concerning his grade.
But he never responds to any of the meeting times that I give him.
Instead, he just ignore those messages and keeps making more meeting requests. I feel like I am talking to a computer program and not an actual person.
Bet those requests are dictated by his coach or his parents and he doesn't actually want to meet.
Be generous with suggested meeting times, but make them all for the day before you send the reply. I'd expect some kind of response then... Or not.
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 31, 2021, 05:25:26 AM
Quote from: research_prof on March 31, 2021, 12:57:28 AM
Quote from: ergative on March 30, 2021, 09:23:47 AM
Me (CCing our admin team): Dear student, in your circumstances I recommend you do [X]. I've CCed our admin team, who can help you with the logistics of [X].
Student (replying to me alone): Dear ergative, I don't understand, how do I get in touch with the admin team?
LOL
I've had variations of the above including a couple this semester.
This week's gem, subject line "Wifi connection":
I am just letting you know as of now, I am out of the country for two weeks. [Two reasons, one of which is something most everyone schedules during long breaks, not during the semester.] I am just letting you know just in case for anything that might happen.
Translation: I'm not going to be submitting assignments or even logging on to Canvas.
I'd kick that one up the chain of command and tell the student to talk with their advisor ASAP. Is one of the reasons a medical procedure? They might not have had much/any choice in the timing.
Missing 2 weeks in ALL of their classes is going to make it very challenging to impossible to get caught up.
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 31, 2021, 10:53:57 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 31, 2021, 05:25:26 AM
Quote from: research_prof on March 31, 2021, 12:57:28 AM
Quote from: ergative on March 30, 2021, 09:23:47 AM
Me (CCing our admin team): Dear student, in your circumstances I recommend you do [X]. I've CCed our admin team, who can help you with the logistics of [X].
Student (replying to me alone): Dear ergative, I don't understand, how do I get in touch with the admin team?
LOL
I've had variations of the above including a couple this semester.
This week's gem, subject line "Wifi connection":
I am just letting you know as of now, I am out of the country for two weeks. [Two reasons, one of which is something most everyone schedules during long breaks, not during the semester.] I am just letting you know just in case for anything that might happen.
Translation: I'm not going to be submitting assignments or even logging on to Canvas.
I'd kick that one up the chain of command and tell the student to talk with their advisor ASAP. Is one of the reasons a medical procedure? They might not have had much/any choice in the timing.
Missing 2 weeks in ALL of their classes is going to make it very challenging to impossible to get caught up.
Good idea to bump this up the chain of command. Stu is visiting family, according to the email, and also has an emergency. Stu is in one of the professional majors, so Stu cannot afford to miss almost two weeks of class--we're closed for the holiday on Friday.
ETA: Stu is probably taking an unofficial spring break, hence the subject line about the WiFi.
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 31, 2021, 05:25:26 AM
Quote from: research_prof on March 31, 2021, 12:57:28 AM
Quote from: ergative on March 30, 2021, 09:23:47 AM
Me (CCing our admin team): Dear student, in your circumstances I recommend you do [X]. I've CCed our admin team, who can help you with the logistics of [X].
Student (replying to me alone): Dear ergative, I don't understand, how do I get in touch with the admin team?
LOL
I've had variations of the above including a couple this semester.
This week's gem, subject line "Wifi connection":
I am just letting you know as of now, I am out of the country for two weeks. [Two reasons, one of which is something most everyone schedules during long breaks, not during the semester.] I am just letting you know just in case for anything that might happen.
Translation: I'm not going to be submitting assignments or even logging on to Canvas.
I got a variation of this the week after Spring Break. It came two hours before the homework assignment which, since nothing was officially due during Spring Break had been posted for two weeks.
"I'm taking my Spring Break this week instead of last week. Unfortunately, the Wifi in my hotel just crashed, so I don't think I will be able to get my homework done. Is it possible to get an extension?"
I replied reminding her of the policies for late homework. I really want them to do the homework, so penalties are actually very small if they do it within 24 hours. I had to hold back from my fantasy reply which was "I'm confused. If you didn't take your Spring Break last week, then you must have completed the homework assignment last week."
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 31, 2021, 11:16:12 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 31, 2021, 10:53:57 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 31, 2021, 05:25:26 AM
Quote from: research_prof on March 31, 2021, 12:57:28 AM
Quote from: ergative on March 30, 2021, 09:23:47 AM
Me (CCing our admin team): Dear student, in your circumstances I recommend you do [X]. I've CCed our admin team, who can help you with the logistics of [X].
Student (replying to me alone): Dear ergative, I don't understand, how do I get in touch with the admin team?
LOL
I've had variations of the above including a couple this semester.
This week's gem, subject line "Wifi connection":
I am just letting you know as of now, I am out of the country for two weeks. [Two reasons, one of which is something most everyone schedules during long breaks, not during the semester.] I am just letting you know just in case for anything that might happen.
Translation: I'm not going to be submitting assignments or even logging on to Canvas.
I'd kick that one up the chain of command and tell the student to talk with their advisor ASAP. Is one of the reasons a medical procedure? They might not have had much/any choice in the timing.
Missing 2 weeks in ALL of their classes is going to make it very challenging to impossible to get caught up.
Good idea to bump this up the chain of command. Stu is visiting family, according to the email, and also has an emergency. Stu is in one of the professional majors, so Stu cannot afford to miss almost two weeks of class--we're closed for the holiday on Friday.
ETA: Stu is probably taking an unofficial spring break, hence the subject line about the WiFi.
My response to reported "emergencies" is always to say "I'm so sorry you have an emergency situation-- I'm CC'ing your advisor here so he/she can help coordinate any supports you may need." If it is a genuine emergency, the student is grateful (they often forget that their staff advisor is the fastest path to mobilizing a whole team). If it isn't, the advisor is looped in and the student is usually evasive.
QuoteHi [firstname],
I was unable to attend the first lab section due to not being able to be at home and having access to the internet. Is there any way I can make up the attendance I apologize as I know it was mandatory.
I'm assuming that the student meant they were not at home and did not have access to the internet.
Fantasy reply:
Dear student,
You are going to have a really rough time with your entirely online classes without reliable access to the internet. You've missed at least 2 days of material in all of your courses. This is not a good way to start your Spring.
Dr. Geneticist
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 31, 2021, 02:03:30 PM
QuoteHi [firstname],
I was unable to attend the first lab section due to not being able to be at home and having access to the internet. Is there any way I can make up the attendance I apologize as I know it was mandatory.
I'm assuming that the student meant they were not at home and did not have access to the internet.
Fantasy reply:
Dear student,
You are going to have a really rough time with your entirely online classes without reliable access to the internet. You've missed at least 2 days of material in all of your courses. This is not a good way to start your Spring.
Dr. Geneticist
Stu wants to make up the attendance, but not what was covered during that session? Stu's going to have a hard time catching up.
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 31, 2021, 02:12:34 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 31, 2021, 02:03:30 PM
QuoteHi [firstname],
I was unable to attend the first lab section due to not being able to be at home and having access to the internet. Is there any way I can make up the attendance I apologize as I know it was mandatory.
I'm assuming that the student meant they were not at home and did not have access to the internet.
Fantasy reply:
Dear student,
You are going to have a really rough time with your entirely online classes without reliable access to the internet. You've missed at least 2 days of material in all of your courses. This is not a good way to start your Spring.
Dr. Geneticist
Stu wants to make up the attendance, but not what was covered during that session? Stu's going to have a hard time catching up.
Well, in Stu's defense, attendance in week 1 is mandatory to keep their seat or they get dropped so we can add someone from the waitlist.
But you are right that it's a bit telling that they are not worried about the missed assignments. They already missed a quiz and a worksheet and if they don't hurry up, they will miss the assignment due tomorrow too.
I need some help with email wording. A student has asked me to record tomorrow's class. I've told them in the past that I'll record if someone is out sick, and I've occasionally had to do this. However, my classroom isn't well set up for it.
Now a student, who also happens to be my undergrad research student, has asked me to record tomorrow's class because he's away on personal travel. I'll do the recording since I suspect he's not the only one traveling for Easter weekend, but I want him to understand that I'm doing this as a favor and it's not something he should feel comfortable asking me to do a lot in the future. I drafted the text below, but Liquidspouse thinks it sounds too snippy so I haven't sent it yet. Thoughts?
The point of recording is to accommodate people who are out sick, not to facilitate personal travel. I'll record it if I remember, but please try not to abuse this. Every time we have a class recorded, I'm limited to using only half the whiteboard, which hampers the experience of students who are there in person.
Hmm. Maybe class-wide, including research student, email? "Because it seems there are a number of individuals that will not be joining us for _____ session for a number of important reasons (or insert religious observance here), I have made the decision to record this class. I hope this will be helpful to you all in the moment, and unless other stars should cross in this exact manner again, it is a rare event." Ok, I got snarky in the end, but surely there is a way to convey that this accommodation has been made for a reason you deem is important in the moment, and not repeatable unless requested/granted for an equally good reason?
Quote from: Liquidambar on April 04, 2021, 04:40:15 PM
I need some help with email wording. A student has asked me to record tomorrow's class. I've told them in the past that I'll record if someone is out sick, and I've occasionally had to do this. However, my classroom isn't well set up for it.
Now a student, who also happens to be my undergrad research student, has asked me to record tomorrow's class because he's away on personal travel. I'll do the recording since I suspect he's not the only one traveling for Easter weekend, but I want him to understand that I'm doing this as a favor and it's not something he should feel comfortable asking me to do a lot in the future. I drafted the text below, but Liquidspouse thinks it sounds too snippy so I haven't sent it yet. Thoughts?
The point of recording is to accommodate people who are out sick, not to facilitate personal travel. I'll record it if I remember, but please try not to abuse this. Every time we have a class recorded, I'm limited to using only half the whiteboard, which hampers the experience of students who are there in person.
We are not allowed to record classes or meetings without the explicit consent of all participants. This means that you would need to get permission from the students who are present before proceeding to record your class.
I would not record classes for students who are absent. Do you have a sentence in your syllabus to the effect that students who miss class should find out from a classmate what was covered in that class? In your case recording your class for a student who has chosen to be absent would be at the expense of the students who are present.
Quote from: Nightshade on April 04, 2021, 04:59:23 PM
Hmm. Maybe class-wide, including research student, email? "Because it seems there are a number of individuals that will not be joining us for _____ session for a number of important reasons (or insert religious observance here), I have made the decision to record this class. I hope this will be helpful to you all in the moment, and unless other stars should cross in this exact manner again, it is a rare event." Ok, I got snarky in the end, but surely there is a way to convey that this accommodation has been made for a reason you deem is important in the moment, and not repeatable unless requested/granted for an equally good reason?
Thanks for the suggestion. I like the idea of emailing the whole class so 1) they know the recording will be available and 2) I can remind everyone of my policy about recording. Or better yet, I'll tell them that they can watch it live during class time, but I won't record it for them to watch later. If they're away on personal travel, that still lets them keep up but without making it as convenient as I would for someone who is out sick. (It's still annoying for those who have to watch me use half the board, but we can't have everything.)
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 04, 2021, 05:02:59 PM
We are not allowed to record classes or meetings without the explicit consent of all participants. This means that you would need to get permission from the students who are present before proceeding to record your class.
I would not record classes for students who are absent. Do you have a sentence in your syllabus to the effect that students who miss class should find out from a classmate what was covered in that class? In your case recording your class for a student who has chosen to be absent would be at the expense of the students who are present.
I do have a sentence like that in my syllabus, but in practice we're expected to fully accommodate students who are out due to covid or possible covid exposure. If someone is out sick for a week or more, getting notes from a classmate isn't a great substitute.
Our policies don't require explicit permission for recording. In any case, the classroom camera is pointed at the podium and the board. If someone stays in their seat and doesn't say anything, they won't show up in the recording. (It's a lecture class.)
Quote from: Liquidambar on April 04, 2021, 04:40:15 PM
Now a student, who also happens to be my undergrad research student, has asked me to record tomorrow's class because he's away on personal travel. I'll do the recording since I suspect he's not the only one traveling for Easter weekend, but I want him to understand that I'm doing this as a favor and it's not something he should feel comfortable asking me to do a lot in the future. I drafted the text below, but Liquidspouse thinks it sounds too snippy so I haven't sent it yet. Thoughts?
The point of recording is to accommodate people who are out sick, not to facilitate personal travel. I'll record it if I remember, but please try not to abuse this. Every time we have a class recorded, I'm limited to using only half the whiteboard, which hampers the experience of students who are there in person.
The most entitled students
always think they're justified. Counting on their judgement as to whether the request is reasonable is like counting on the fox to only raid the henhouse when they're REALLY hungry.
I'd just go ahead and use the whole whiteboard. If a student arranged to travel when they should be in class, oh well.
I received this one this morning from a student who isn't anywhere close to passing. Coming late to class because you were being tutored for that class? I don't get it. How about you leave the tutoring session early to get to class on time?
Good morning Dr. Mode,
The reason for this email is because I will be late to tomorrow's lecture. With where all my grades stand right now, I realized that I needed to get a tutor to get help with my assignments. The only time that I could get was 11:30pm -12:30pm. I will be 10 minutes late since the start of lecture is at 12:20pm. I just wanted to let you know about this. I have read what we will be covering during lecture class and understand what I will miss.
Best,
Stu
Quote from: Hegemony on April 06, 2021, 01:08:24 AM
I'd just go ahead and use the whole whiteboard. If a student arranged to travel when they should be in class, oh well.
Yep, if I got that email I would reply with a link to our university travel policy, which is currently "don't travel" and tell them they can get notes from someone. Even in normal times I don't accommodate non-emergency travel, unless it is for a university-sanctioned reason (e.g., sports, with official letter), in the case of graduating students for grad school and job interviews, or in the case of grad students for conferences. That is all clearly stated in the syllabus and consistent with university policy.
Quote from: Puget on April 06, 2021, 06:33:54 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 06, 2021, 01:08:24 AM
I'd just go ahead and use the whole whiteboard. If a student arranged to travel when they should be in class, oh well.
Yep, if I got that email I would reply with a link to our university travel policy, which is currently "don't travel" and tell them they can get notes from someone.
That seems a bit harsh. We don't really know the circumstances. The student might well be visiting family who are fully vaccinated. That's not dangerous as long as they are taking appropriate precautions. Fine to tell them to get notes, but no reason to judge the student.
Quote from: EdnaMode on April 06, 2021, 06:05:40 AM
I received this one this morning from a student who isn't anywhere close to passing. Coming late to class because you were being tutored for that class? I don't get it. How about you leave the tutoring session early to get to class on time?
Good morning Dr. Mode,
The reason for this email is because I will be late to tomorrow's lecture. With where all my grades stand right now, I realized that I needed to get a tutor to get help with my assignments. The only time that I could get was 11:30pm -12:30pm. I will be 10 minutes late since the start of lecture is at 12:20pm. I just wanted to let you know about this. I have read what we will be covering during lecture class and understand what I will miss.
Best,
Stu
So the class is at 23h00?
Quote from: EdnaMode on April 06, 2021, 06:05:40 AM
I received this one this morning from a student who isn't anywhere close to passing. Coming late to class because you were being tutored for that class? I don't get it. How about you leave the tutoring session early to get to class on time?
Good morning Dr. Mode,
The reason for this email is because I will be late to tomorrow's lecture. With where all my grades stand right now, I realized that I needed to get a tutor to get help with my assignments. The only time that I could get was 11:30pm -12:30pm. I will be 10 minutes late since the start of lecture is at 12:20pm. I just wanted to let you know about this. I have read what we will be covering during lecture class and understand what I will miss.
Best,
Stu
Given that email, I'm not certain the student knows how to tell time. Either that or they have signed up for 13 hours of tutoring and have gone entirely nocturnal.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 06, 2021, 08:55:41 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on April 06, 2021, 06:05:40 AM
I received this one this morning from a student who isn't anywhere close to passing. Coming late to class because you were being tutored for that class? I don't get it. How about you leave the tutoring session early to get to class on time?
Good morning Dr. Mode,
The reason for this email is because I will be late to tomorrow's lecture. With where all my grades stand right now, I realized that I needed to get a tutor to get help with my assignments. The only time that I could get was 11:30pm -12:30pm. I will be 10 minutes late since the start of lecture is at 12:20pm. I just wanted to let you know about this. I have read what we will be covering during lecture class and understand what I will miss.
Best,
Stu
Given that email, I'm not certain the student knows how to tell time. Either that or they have signed up for 13 hours of tutoring and have gone entirely nocturnal.
The inability to tell time is only one of Stu's many, many problems. Actually, I just ignored the time and figured they meant 11:30 AM to 12:30 PM. Our lecture does start at 12:20 PM. Now if it were at 12:20 AM I may have better attendance. I can't count the number of emails I receive that are sent in the wee hours of the morning and they often start with "Sorry to send this message so late/early" as if I would be awake and reading messages at 3 AM. **shrug**
Quote from: Caracal on April 06, 2021, 08:44:48 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 06, 2021, 06:33:54 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 06, 2021, 01:08:24 AM
I'd just go ahead and use the whole whiteboard. If a student arranged to travel when they should be in class, oh well.
Yep, if I got that email I would reply with a link to our university travel policy, which is currently "don't travel" and tell them they can get notes from someone.
That seems a bit harsh. We don't really know the circumstances. The student might well be visiting family who are fully vaccinated. That's not dangerous as long as they are taking appropriate precautions. Fine to tell them to get notes, but no reason to judge the student.
My judgement doesn't matter-- the university policy is they can't travel out of state unless they get emergency clearance from the dean of students. And no, I don't think it is harsh to judge students for traveling recreationally *during times there are classes*. They can go visit their family during break, not during the semester.
It's week 2 of Spring and I've had 2 emails today saying basically:
QuoteHi [firstname],
I didn't know classes had started. Did I miss anything? Oh, and my internet is bad.
Clueless student
So, you missed my "welcome to class email", announcements from me, announcements from your TA, reminders about missing work from the LMS, and at least a week of class.
As for what you should do: 1. get somewhere with reliable internet! All of your classes are online. The campus can send you a hotspot, the libraries are open, etc. Plus, it's your 3rd quarter of all online classes.
2. Drop this class. Historically, students who start out this behind do not pass.
Quote from: Puget on April 06, 2021, 09:23:10 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 06, 2021, 08:44:48 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 06, 2021, 06:33:54 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 06, 2021, 01:08:24 AM
I'd just go ahead and use the whole whiteboard. If a student arranged to travel when they should be in class, oh well.
Yep, if I got that email I would reply with a link to our university travel policy, which is currently "don't travel" and tell them they can get notes from someone.
That seems a bit harsh. We don't really know the circumstances. The student might well be visiting family who are fully vaccinated. That's not dangerous as long as they are taking appropriate precautions. Fine to tell them to get notes, but no reason to judge the student.
My judgement doesn't matter-- the university policy is they can't travel out of state unless they get emergency clearance from the dean of students. And no, I don't think it is harsh to judge students for traveling recreationally *during times there are classes*. They can go visit their family during break, not during the semester.
Its a long tough semester. Worth cutting students a break. Not your policy, but I also have a hard time really seeing the logic of prohibiting out of state travel. Driving four hours doesn't really carry more of an exposure risk than driving two...
It's not where they go, or how long it takes, it's who they visit (and how many of them, and how many are unmasked, etc.) which can't be monitored while an individual is out of state.
They bring the risk back with them, is the potential issue.
For schools trying to maintain some kind of sanity, this is not harsh, it's a simple necessity.
Have you ever visited someone in an ICU on universal precautions?
No, probably not, because only absolutely necessary individuals are allowed in, and they have to de-mask and de-gown, and wash up before leaving the area, to prevent iatrogenic contamination. (From personal experience as a unit coordinator often assigned to the ICU/CCU: I had to post the signs, so I know what they said...and replenish the mask/gown/soap rack right outside the room in the attached lav...so I know they were used).
We're all, still, really on universal precautions. Or we should be.
Sorry, the whole selfish, entitled "I don't wanna wear a mask or refrain from seeing my friends because it's considerate of others" is what's taking us so long to get back to any kind of "normalcy" (Hoover's oh-so-apt neologism) within the next year.
Sorry, /rant over.
M.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 06, 2021, 09:28:45 AM
It's week 2 of Spring and I've had 2 emails today saying basically:
QuoteHi [firstname],
I didn't know classes had started. Did I miss anything? Oh, and my internet is bad.
Clueless student
So, you missed my "welcome to class email", announcements from me, announcements from your TA, reminders about missing work from the LMS, and at least a week of class.
As for what you should do: 1. get somewhere with reliable internet! All of your classes are online. The campus can send you a hotspot, the libraries are open, etc. Plus, it's your 3rd quarter of all online classes.
2. Drop this class. Historically, students who start out this behind do not pass.
I fear that some of my late-start students have not got this far yet. Or maybe the general tenor of my messages to the class so far has made it clear that it isn't even them worth trying this.
Quote from: EdnaMode on April 06, 2021, 09:04:12 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 06, 2021, 08:55:41 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on April 06, 2021, 06:05:40 AM
I received this one this morning from a student who isn't anywhere close to passing. Coming late to class because you were being tutored for that class? I don't get it. How about you leave the tutoring session early to get to class on time?
Good morning Dr. Mode,
The reason for this email is because I will be late to tomorrow's lecture. With where all my grades stand right now, I realized that I needed to get a tutor to get help with my assignments. The only time that I could get was 11:30pm -12:30pm. I will be 10 minutes late since the start of lecture is at 12:20pm. I just wanted to let you know about this. I have read what we will be covering during lecture class and understand what I will miss.
Best,
Stu
Given that email, I'm not certain the student knows how to tell time. Either that or they have signed up for 13 hours of tutoring and have gone entirely nocturnal.
The inability to tell time is only one of Stu's many, many problems.
Hence the need for 13 straight hours of tutoring. Whether it helps or not, it sounds like an heroic effort.
Quote from: mamselle on April 06, 2021, 09:39:54 AM
It's not where they go, or how long it takes, it's who they visit (and how many of them, and how many are unmasked, etc.) which can't be monitored while an individual is out of state.
They bring the risk back with them, is the potential issue.
For schools trying to maintain some kind of sanity, this is not harsh, it's a simple necessity.
Have you ever visited someone in an ICU on universal precautions?
No, probably not, because only absolutely necessary individuals are allowed in, and they have to de-mask and de-gown, and wash up before leaving the area, to prevent iatrogenic contamination. (From personal experience as a unit coordinator often assigned to the ICU/CCU: I had to post the signs, so I know what they said...and replenish the mask/gown/soap rack right outside the room in the attached lav...so I know they were used).
We're all, still, really on universal precautions. Or we should be.
Sorry, the whole selfish, entitled "I don't wanna wear a mask or refrain from seeing my friends because it's considerate of others" is what's taking us so long to get back to any kind of "normalcy" (Hoover's oh-so-apt neologism) within the next year.
Sorry, /rant over.
M.
Well, it can't be monitored when they are away from campus. If the student is visiting vaccinated parents or family, what they are doing is probably far, far safer than a group of students who go to a restaurant or bar 5 miles away from campus. I get where you're coming from, but trying to shame people into better behavior around public health never works.
Quote from: Hegemony on April 06, 2021, 01:08:24 AM
I'd just go ahead and use the whole whiteboard. If a student arranged to travel when they should be in class, oh well.
This does not appear to be a COVID or illness-related absence as the student has chosen to travel. Not using the whole whiteboard to accommodate this student would mean that the students who are in class would be penalized.
Quote from: Caracal on April 06, 2021, 09:30:45 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 06, 2021, 09:23:10 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 06, 2021, 08:44:48 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 06, 2021, 06:33:54 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 06, 2021, 01:08:24 AM
I'd just go ahead and use the whole whiteboard. If a student arranged to travel when they should be in class, oh well.
Yep, if I got that email I would reply with a link to our university travel policy, which is currently "don't travel" and tell them they can get notes from someone.
That seems a bit harsh. We don't really know the circumstances. The student might well be visiting family who are fully vaccinated. That's not dangerous as long as they are taking appropriate precautions. Fine to tell them to get notes, but no reason to judge the student.
My judgement doesn't matter-- the university policy is they can't travel out of state unless they get emergency clearance from the dean of students. And no, I don't think it is harsh to judge students for traveling recreationally *during times there are classes*. They can go visit their family during break, not during the semester.
Its a long tough semester. Worth cutting students a break. Not your policy, but I also have a hard time really seeing the logic of prohibiting out of state travel. Driving four hours doesn't really carry more of an exposure risk than driving two...
For faculty too, but you don't see us skipping class to travel. Sorry, but we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one-- I am compassionate toward student stress in many ways, but enabling irresponsible travel during the semester is not one of them.
Quote from: Puget on April 06, 2021, 10:19:16 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 06, 2021, 09:30:45 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 06, 2021, 09:23:10 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 06, 2021, 08:44:48 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 06, 2021, 06:33:54 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 06, 2021, 01:08:24 AM
I'd just go ahead and use the whole whiteboard. If a student arranged to travel when they should be in class, oh well.
Yep, if I got that email I would reply with a link to our university travel policy, which is currently "don't travel" and tell them they can get notes from someone.
That seems a bit harsh. We don't really know the circumstances. The student might well be visiting family who are fully vaccinated. That's not dangerous as long as they are taking appropriate precautions. Fine to tell them to get notes, but no reason to judge the student.
My judgement doesn't matter-- the university policy is they can't travel out of state unless they get emergency clearance from the dean of students. And no, I don't think it is harsh to judge students for traveling recreationally *during times there are classes*. They can go visit their family during break, not during the semester.
Its a long tough semester. Worth cutting students a break. Not your policy, but I also have a hard time really seeing the logic of prohibiting out of state travel. Driving four hours doesn't really carry more of an exposure risk than driving two...
For faculty too, but you don't see us skipping class to travel. Sorry, but we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one-- I am compassionate toward student stress in many ways, but enabling irresponsible travel during the semester is not one of them.
Oh, I don't think there's any need to change the class to accommodate the student. I just would leave out the judgement about travel.
Quote from: Caracal on April 06, 2021, 09:30:45 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 06, 2021, 09:23:10 AM
My judgement doesn't matter-- the university policy is they can't travel out of state unless they get emergency clearance from the dean of students. And no, I don't think it is harsh to judge students for traveling recreationally *during times there are classes*. They can go visit their family during break, not during the semester.
Its a long tough semester. Worth cutting students a break. Not your policy, but I also have a hard time really seeing the logic of prohibiting out of state travel. Driving four hours doesn't really carry more of an exposure risk than driving two...
You do know that there are
countries who have closed their borders to limit outbreaks? And
regions of countries that have prohibited travel into them to limit outbreaks? Within a 4 hour drive of here, I can get to regions with big outbreaks and others with virtually no cases, and everything in between.
Because travel can create
big risks, lots of places are forbidding it. People who refuse to take this seriously are responsible for many of the outbreaks.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 06, 2021, 10:57:12 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 06, 2021, 09:30:45 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 06, 2021, 09:23:10 AM
My judgement doesn't matter-- the university policy is they can't travel out of state unless they get emergency clearance from the dean of students. And no, I don't think it is harsh to judge students for traveling recreationally *during times there are classes*. They can go visit their family during break, not during the semester.
Its a long tough semester. Worth cutting students a break. Not your policy, but I also have a hard time really seeing the logic of prohibiting out of state travel. Driving four hours doesn't really carry more of an exposure risk than driving two...
You do know that there are countries who have closed their borders to limit outbreaks? And regions of countries that have prohibited travel into them to limit outbreaks? Within a 4 hour drive of here, I can get to regions with big outbreaks and others with virtually no cases, and everything in between.
Because travel can create big risks, lots of places are forbidding it. People who refuse to take this seriously are responsible for many of the outbreaks.
If a school wants to keep students from going off campus, or have a rule that they aren't supposed to go out of the nearby area, that's fine. I just think the "no travel out of state" rule is pretty arbitrary and nonsensical. And in general, shaming is just a bad strategy and tends to be counterproductive. The student went out of state, you have no idea if this is totally safe or risky. Expressing disapproval often feels productive, but it doesn't actually do anything and tends to backfire. There's no need to rearrange the class for the one student, but just tell them they'll have to get notes and move on.
Quote from: Puget on April 06, 2021, 10:19:16 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 06, 2021, 09:30:45 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 06, 2021, 09:23:10 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 06, 2021, 08:44:48 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 06, 2021, 06:33:54 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 06, 2021, 01:08:24 AM
I'd just go ahead and use the whole whiteboard. If a student arranged to travel when they should be in class, oh well.
Yep, if I got that email I would reply with a link to our university travel policy, which is currently "don't travel" and tell them they can get notes from someone.
That seems a bit harsh. We don't really know the circumstances. The student might well be visiting family who are fully vaccinated. That's not dangerous as long as they are taking appropriate precautions. Fine to tell them to get notes, but no reason to judge the student.
My judgement doesn't matter-- the university policy is they can't travel out of state unless they get emergency clearance from the dean of students. And no, I don't think it is harsh to judge students for traveling recreationally *during times there are classes*. They can go visit their family during break, not during the semester.
Its a long tough semester. Worth cutting students a break. Not your policy, but I also have a hard time really seeing the logic of prohibiting out of state travel. Driving four hours doesn't really carry more of an exposure risk than driving two...
For faculty too, but you don't see us skipping class to travel. Sorry, but we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one-- I am compassionate toward student stress in many ways, but enabling irresponsible travel during the semester is not one of them.
I actually went the other way when I had several students ask about remote attendance last Friday so that they could visit family over Easter. I emailed the whole class and said I would make the class accessible synchronously and remotely (the way I do it they can hear my voice and see my slides and annotations, but not see me or hear the other students). But I also told them that traveling right now was dangerous, and that anyone who attended remotely on Friday was not permitted back to in-person class until they have a negative result from a test taken at least four days after their return to Uni-city, meaning they would have to attend this week's classes remotely too.
Shockingly, nobody pushed back at all. I got several peoplee saying essentially "that's fine", two people who changed their travel plans, and three who responded to thank me for protecting them from their idiot classmates.
Obviously a determined student coukd lie their way out of it, but it was the best I could come up with.
^ Like.
M.
Update on this...
Quote from: Liquidambar on April 04, 2021, 04:40:15 PM
I need some help with email wording. A student has asked me to record tomorrow's class. I've told them in the past that I'll record if someone is out sick, and I've occasionally had to do this. However, my classroom isn't well set up for it.
Now a student, who also happens to be my undergrad research student, has asked me to record tomorrow's class because he's away on personal travel. I'll do the recording since I suspect he's not the only one traveling for Easter weekend, but I want him to understand that I'm doing this as a favor and it's not something he should feel comfortable asking me to do a lot in the future. I drafted the text below, but Liquidspouse thinks it sounds too snippy so I haven't sent it yet. Thoughts?
Nightshade suggested I email the whole class, which was a great idea. I sent everyone a message saying they could watch this particular class remotely in real time, but it wouldn't be recorded. I also reminded them about my policy on recording (only for when someone is out sick). I'm glad I did it this way. I looked helpful(ish) without coddling them too much. Two students tuned in who otherwise wouldn't have known they could. Research student did not. His loss! I guess he'll have to get notes from someone.
I briefly considered chastising students for personal travel, but I decided not to. I'm not sure of our exact policy on it, and our calendar this semester was poorly thought out. To discourage student travel, we have a few scattered spring break days instead of a solid week off. The Monday right after Easter was not a break, but Tuesday was. Of course some students decided to take a long weekend.
We also gave them St. Patrick's Day off and were shocked--
shocked, I tell you!--that students went to off-campus parties and got a lot of new Covid infections.
Stu Dent: "Professor, I don't know why I'm getting a D and I keep failing the exams. I have read and memorized the entire textbook."
Sure, man. Sure you have. I'm not sure why you're telling me something this stupid-sounding, as we only use the first third of the textbook in this course, and we were only about halfway into those handfuls of chapters when you contacted me. But okay, blow this rainbow unicorn smoke up my butt. You're still flunking all the exams because you don't understand the lesson content, which is directly found in the textbook and marked in the class notes.
"Memorized the entire textbook." Man, that is RICH. There's over 1200 pages in that thing.
Quote from: Aster on April 07, 2021, 03:13:42 PM
Stu Dent: "Professor, I don't know why I'm getting a D and I keep failing the exams. I have read and memorized the entire textbook."
Sure, man. Sure you have. I'm not sure why you're telling me something this stupid-sounding, as we only use the first third of the textbook in this course, and we were only about halfway into those handfuls of chapters when you contacted me. But okay, blow this rainbow unicorn smoke up my butt. You're still flunking all the exams because you don't understand the lesson content, which is directly found in the textbook and marked in the class notes.
"Memorized the entire textbook." Man, that is RICH. There's over 1200 pages in that thing.
Such imagery!
Yep. They are full of it.
By "memorized" the student may mean "ran a highlighter over every line on every page." I've seen books like that. Unfortunately some of them actually belonged to the university library.
Quote from: apl68 on April 08, 2021, 07:42:20 AM
By "memorized" the student may mean "ran a highlighter over every line on every page." I've seen books like that. Unfortunately some of them actually belonged to the university library.
I'm tempted to hand some students a black Sharpie and say, "it might be faster to just cross out the important bits". Some books look like a rainbow barfed on them.
Quote from: Liquidambar on April 06, 2021, 08:00:58 PM
Update on this...
Quote from: Liquidambar on April 04, 2021, 04:40:15 PM
I need some help with email wording. A student has asked me to record tomorrow's class. I've told them in the past that I'll record if someone is out sick, and I've occasionally had to do this. However, my classroom isn't well set up for it.
Now a student, who also happens to be my undergrad research student, has asked me to record tomorrow's class because he's away on personal travel. I'll do the recording since I suspect he's not the only one traveling for Easter weekend, but I want him to understand that I'm doing this as a favor and it's not something he should feel comfortable asking me to do a lot in the future. I drafted the text below, but Liquidspouse thinks it sounds too snippy so I haven't sent it yet. Thoughts?
Nightshade suggested I email the whole class, which was a great idea. I sent everyone a message saying they could watch this particular class remotely in real time, but it wouldn't be recorded. I also reminded them about my policy on recording (only for when someone is out sick). I'm glad I did it this way. I looked helpful(ish) without coddling them too much. Two students tuned in who otherwise wouldn't have known they could. Research student did not. His loss! I guess he'll have to get notes from someone.
I briefly considered chastising students for personal travel, but I decided not to. I'm not sure of our exact policy on it, and our calendar this semester was poorly thought out. To discourage student travel, we have a few scattered spring break days instead of a solid week off. The Monday right after Easter was not a break, but Tuesday was. Of course some students decided to take a long weekend.
We also gave them St. Patrick's Day off and were shocked--shocked, I tell you!--that students went to off-campus parties and got a lot of new Covid infections.
Yeah, I think there's a tendency to blame students and then try to control them. Universities gave up so long ago on the en loco parentis thing that they forgot that they are actually an institutionalized setting and can exert huge amounts of control over students lives. For the larger population in the US, COVID rules have been basically suggestions, something that is especially true for middle class people. College students live in a really different world, at least those living in dorms do and they have to deal with really intense rules governing all sorts of aspects of their daily lives. Most of these rules are necessary, at least they are if you're going to invite a bunch of 18-22 year olds to live in close quarters with each other, but that doesn't mean they don't feel pretty oppressive if you have to deal with them all the time.
When you have a lot of rules you have to follow, by their nature some of them often seem arbitrary or capricious. I don't even know what the exact mask rules are in my state right now. They are certainly required inside and I always wear them. Outside, I basically take the approach that if I can stay six feet away from other people with ease, I don't need a mask on. If I'm somewhere where there are enough other people around on the sidewalks that that might not be possible I put it on.
The students who live on the campus near me don't get to make those choices. They are supposed to have their masks on at all times, on campus or off. I was with my kid at a satellite park area of campus. I had a mask in my pocket but I didn't have it on, because there was literally no other person there within hundreds of yards. I'll admit to feeling kind of annoyed when a campus cop rolled up and told me I needed to have a mask on. Its annoying to be told you don't get to use reasonable discretion. Now before anybody yells at me, I understand why that rule exists and is enforced the way it is. They are trying to get students to just always wear a mask because campus is crowded and full of people and you want to avoid a bunch of endless arguments and I'm sure they have specifically told the cops to not make distinctions about visitors or exceptions. But if you're there all the time, that's going to start to feel oppressive really quickly.
So, I guess that's just a long way of saying I think you made the right choice on that. Maybe the student is doing something ill advised over Easter. Maybe they are visiting fully vaccinated people they haven't seen in a long time. I'm sympathetic to them right now and I can't see how grumbling about the rules will accomplish much.
Quote from: Caracal on April 08, 2021, 10:27:46 AM
Universities gave up so long ago on the en loco parentis thing that they forgot that they are actually an institutionalized setting and can exert huge amounts of control over students lives.
Well, since the students are legal adults the only real "control" institutions have is similar to a private club; "follow the rules or get kicked out". Even parents don't have any "official" control once their children reach the age of majority.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 08, 2021, 12:18:55 PM
Quote from: Caracal on April 08, 2021, 10:27:46 AM
Universities gave up so long ago on the en loco parentis thing that they forgot that they are actually an institutionalized setting and can exert huge amounts of control over students lives.
Well, since the students are legal adults the only real "control" institutions have is similar to a private club; "follow the rules or get kicked out". Even parents don't have any "official" control once their children reach the age of majority.
That was always true though, or at least was true in the 50s when schools had curfews, prohibitions on opposite sex guest, required dining room attire and all the rest.
Quote from: Caracal on April 08, 2021, 01:15:02 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 08, 2021, 12:18:55 PM
Quote from: Caracal on April 08, 2021, 10:27:46 AM
Universities gave up so long ago on the en loco parentis thing that they forgot that they are actually an institutionalized setting and can exert huge amounts of control over students lives.
Well, since the students are legal adults the only real "control" institutions have is similar to a private club; "follow the rules or get kicked out". Even parents don't have any "official" control once their children reach the age of majority.
That was always true though, or at least was true in the 50s when schools had curfews, prohibitions on opposite sex guest, required dining room attire and all the rest.
Which is long before any current faculty or administrators would remember. By the 70's, (about as early as any non-retired faculty would have experienced), "Animal house" was a more representative (if wildly exaggerated) image.
I won't quote a specific email, but a recurring issue I am having this semester is with students who make the same request multiple times without seeming to pay any attention to the answer. One student has emailed every week to see if I will accept the previous week's work. If it wasn't allowed in the last eight weeks, why would it be an option this week? Another student emailed at the beginning of the term to see if student could do extra work for bonus points (no, with a reminder of the syllabus), and has just written again to request the same thing.
My policies don't change. I don't accept late work one week after never having accepted it before. I don't change my mind about offering bonus points or extra credit. I don't change the rubrics for students who don't think they should be evaluated on certain (departmentally established) criteria. No. Still no.
I don't mind answering the same question multiple times, but having the same question asked by the same student multiple times is exhausting.
(Still no.)
AR.
Class memo/reminder?
Oh, wait...they'd have to read that...
M.
I got a set of 2 emails.
One from the student
QuoteHello!
I am contacting you because I am concerned about my grade on the exam. For question 8 I clearly, remember matching my answers for [Category 1] and the [Category 2], but I saw that they were switched. I wrote it down in my notebook to make sure that I put it in the right box but somehow, it was switched. That would change my grade by missing one point on that problem instead of four points. Could it be possible for me to get back these points? Please let me know and thank you!
Switch-a-roo Student
And this one from their TA
QuoteDo you think we should give the points back to this student?
Dear Switch-a-roo Student,
Thank you for your email. We can only grade students based on the answers they submitted.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
Dear TA,
Are you KIDDING ME? No. Just no.
Sigh. At least the TA asked before just giving the student more points.
Student is probably operating on high school standards these days, where asking for stuff like this is normative, and mom and dad are usually there to induce admins to play ball. TA is probably afraid of complaints.
Student did not submit his responses for a homework. TA emailed the student without asking me to ask "if this was a mistake", then telling me and arguing with me that "we did that for another student".
First of all, we did not do that for another student: the student contacted us, because he submitted the wrong homework and provided proof that he had completed the homework before the deadline--still this proof was not bulletproof, but in a good faith effort, I (the primary instructor), decided to grant the student the benefit of the doubt.
It is different for us to proactively contact a student and having a student that messes things up contacting us. And, in any case, you are a TA and that means you are not getting paid to be "creative", but you need to run things by me before you take action. Next time, something like that might get you fired.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 28, 2021, 01:58:29 PM
I got a set of 2 emails.
One from the student
QuoteHello!
I am contacting you because I am concerned about my grade on the exam. For question 8 I clearly, remember matching my answers for [Category 1] and the [Category 2], but I saw that they were switched. I wrote it down in my notebook to make sure that I put it in the right box but somehow, it was switched. That would change my grade by missing one point on that problem instead of four points. Could it be possible for me to get back these points? Please let me know and thank you!
Switch-a-roo Student
And this one from their TA
QuoteDo you think we should give the points back to this student?
Dear Switch-a-roo Student,
Thank you for your email. We can only grade students based on the answers they submitted.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
Dear TA,
Are you KIDDING ME? No. Just no.
Sigh. At least the TA asked before just giving the student more points.
Did you double-check to make sure you sent the right email to the right person? I always worry that I'll get my wires crossed in a situation like this.
Stu Dent: "After checking my grade, I realized I am a little short of an A in your class. I do not expect special treatment, but I am hoping this email would encourage you to reconsider my grade."
So I checked this guy's records. He has a mid-range B. I don't believe that falls anywhere close to "little short of an A".
Quote from: Aster on April 29, 2021, 08:33:08 AM
Stu Dent: "After checking my grade, I realized I am a little short of an A in your class. I do not expect special treatment, but I am hoping this email would encourage you to reconsider my grade."
So I checked this guy's records. He has a mid-range B. I don't believe that falls anywhere close to "little short of an A".
"I do not expect special treatment...but could you give me some anyway?"
Quote from: apl68 on April 29, 2021, 09:34:32 AM
Quote from: Aster on April 29, 2021, 08:33:08 AM
Stu Dent: "After checking my grade, I realized I am a little short of an A in your class. I do not expect special treatment, but I am hoping this email would encourage you to reconsider my grade."
So I checked this guy's records. He has a mid-range B. I don't believe that falls anywhere close to "little short of an A".
"I do not expect special treatment...but could you give me some anyway?"
Not
special special; just
ordinary special
Students have been sending me pleading requests not through emails, but by writing me notes in the Comment boxes for their assignments. For the most part, these are requests to submit missed or late assignments. Since the pleading requests now consist of complete sentences that are grammatical, I caved in on the grounds that these students have learned professional academic writing and therefore deserve an extension.
I got an inadvertently almost funny one today. I wrote to a student to say that I had a report that showed they viewed the answer to an exam question that was posted on Chegg. Note: I didn't say which question, just that is was on their midterm.
They wrote back to say that they only wanted to "double check" their answer to the question on [Topic B] because they were confused.
I had evidence that they looked at a [Topic M] question, but now I have an admission of misconduct for the [Topic B] question too.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 29, 2021, 03:02:26 PM
I got an inadvertently almost funny one today. I wrote to a student to say that I had a report that showed they viewed the answer to an exam question that was posted on Chegg. Note: I didn't say which question, just that is was on their midterm.
They wrote back to say that they only wanted to "double check" their answer to the question on [Topic B] because they were confused.
I had evidence that they looked at a [Topic M] question, but now I have an admission of misconduct for the [Topic B] question too.
I know nothing about Chegg but can guess what it is. How though do you get a report on what has been viewed, or were you bluffing?
Quote from: science.expat on April 29, 2021, 11:24:54 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 29, 2021, 03:02:26 PM
I got an inadvertently almost funny one today. I wrote to a student to say that I had a report that showed they viewed the answer to an exam question that was posted on Chegg. Note: I didn't say which question, just that is was on their midterm.
They wrote back to say that they only wanted to "double check" their answer to the question on [Topic B] because they were confused.
I had evidence that they looked at a [Topic M] question, but now I have an admission of misconduct for the [Topic B] question too.
I know nothing about Chegg but can guess what it is. How though do you get a report on what has been viewed, or were you bluffing?
It's one of the so-called "study help" sites that students PAY for access to posted questions, textbook answer keys, etc.
No, I'm not bluffing. Our conduct folks requested a usage report for who posted & who viewed the links to my course materials. It shows their name, email, IP address, day & time accessed, etc. The conduct folks will cross-reference it with the class roster to add in SIDs and other information. You'd be surprised how many students use their real name and university emails on these sites. Combine that with a spreadsheet of IP addresses used by enrolled students to submit their online assignments, and you can catch pretty much all of them.
And that's part of why I stopped returning exams a few years ago. And why all of the online assessments that I've created for COVID were designed to be disposable. Once that regular classes resume, my online assessments will be removed from curriculum.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 30, 2021, 09:31:28 AM
Quote from: science.expat on April 29, 2021, 11:24:54 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 29, 2021, 03:02:26 PM
I got an inadvertently almost funny one today. I wrote to a student to say that I had a report that showed they viewed the answer to an exam question that was posted on Chegg. Note: I didn't say which question, just that is was on their midterm.
They wrote back to say that they only wanted to "double check" their answer to the question on [Topic B] because they were confused.
I had evidence that they looked at a [Topic M] question, but now I have an admission of misconduct for the [Topic B] question too.
I know nothing about Chegg but can guess what it is. How though do you get a report on what has been viewed, or were you bluffing?
It's one of the so-called "study help" sites that students PAY for access to posted questions, textbook answer keys, etc.
No, I'm not bluffing. Our conduct folks requested a usage report for who posted & who viewed the links to my course materials. It shows their name, email, IP address, day & time accessed, etc. The conduct folks will cross-reference it with the class roster to add in SIDs and other information. You'd be surprised how many students use their real name and university emails on these sites. Combine that with a spreadsheet of IP addresses used by enrolled students to submit their online assignments, and you can catch pretty much all of them.
So...the site helps students to cheat, for a fee, and then turns state's evidence against them when they get in trouble for it? Talk about amoral! Par for the course for Silicon Valley, I guess.
There are Chegg bots running on Discord servers that allow Chegg answers to be retrieved without a paid account. (Google "Chegg bot discord".) Apparently a Chegg link can be submitted to the bot and it returns the full expert answer.
And the student who admitted to posting ALL of the exam questions on Chegg (and viewing the posted answers) while taking the exam just emailed to say that they also admit to posting the worksheet questions on Chegg.
I appreciate the honesty, but they are already going to fail the course just from the exam misconduct.
I just received an email that started with "Dear Name of Professor" and ended with "I can be reached at Email Address or at Phone Number."
There was content relevant to my course in the body of the email, but this really seems like a form letter...
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on May 03, 2021, 02:01:43 PM
I just received an email that started with "Dear Name of Professor" and ended with "I can be reached at Email Address or at Phone Number."
There was content relevant to my course in the body of the email, but this really seems like a form letter...
Was the body of the email about changing a grade? Because if you scroll to the bottom of this page (https://essaydragon.com/blog/how-to-email-a-professor-about-your-grade), you'll find a sample form letter that fits your description.
See, students
can do the research and follow formatting guidelines!
Quote from: ergative on May 04, 2021, 01:59:04 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on May 03, 2021, 02:01:43 PM
I just received an email that started with "Dear Name of Professor" and ended with "I can be reached at Email Address or at Phone Number."
There was content relevant to my course in the body of the email, but this really seems like a form letter...
Was the body of the email about changing a grade? Because if you scroll to the bottom of this page (https://essaydragon.com/blog/how-to-email-a-professor-about-your-grade), you'll find a sample form letter that fits your description.
See, students can do the research and follow formatting guidelines!
Yep. That's it!
Student: Is 87.8% a B+ or an A?
Really? You have to ask?
Quote from: downer on May 04, 2021, 10:39:54 AM
Student: Is 87.8% a B+ or an A?
Really? You have to ask?
Well, it's a fair question. Sometimes folks adjust the grade cutoffs. But my guess is that you would have told your students if you had done that.
Fair enough. I've never done that. I guess I should put the grading scale in the syllabus.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 04, 2021, 11:10:49 AM
Quote from: downer on May 04, 2021, 10:39:54 AM
Student: Is 87.8% a B+ or an A?
Really? You have to ask?
Well, it's a fair question. Sometimes folks adjust the grade cutoffs. But my guess is that you would have told your students if you had done that.
Another possibility; here, it's written something like this;
85-87 B+
88-90 A
So it's not entirely clear what should happen
between 87 and 88. Round? Truncate?
Quote from: downer on May 04, 2021, 11:19:58 AM
Fair enough. I've never done that. I guess I should put the grading scale in the syllabus.
Turns out that the school has a prescribed grading scale very much as you'd expect.
Very anxious first-year undergraduate is asking for clarification on the difference between an essay and a commentary, because she doesn't want to give the wrong kind of response for a one hour long-answer essay exam.
Bless her. I was appropriately kind and reassuring.
Nervous first-year grad student: You said in office hours that I could construct a plan if I could defend doing so. Did you say that?
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 04, 2021, 11:10:49 AM
Quote from: downer on May 04, 2021, 10:39:54 AM
Student: Is 87.8% a B+ or an A?
Really? You have to ask?
Well, it's a fair question. Sometimes folks adjust the grade cutoffs. But my guess is that you would have told your students if you had done that.
Yes. I'm familiar with both secondary schools and small colleges that divide grades every 12 points rather than every 10. I also took a class once in which each letter spanned only 8 points; an 80 was a solid C.
At many UK schools, 40 is passing, 60 is the equivalent of a B, and 70+ is functionally an A.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on May 05, 2021, 08:44:17 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 04, 2021, 11:10:49 AM
Quote from: downer on May 04, 2021, 10:39:54 AM
Student: Is 87.8% a B+ or an A?
Really? You have to ask?
Well, it's a fair question. Sometimes folks adjust the grade cutoffs. But my guess is that you would have told your students if you had done that.
Yes. I'm familiar with both secondary schools and small colleges that divide grades every 12 points rather than every 10. I also took a class once in which each letter spanned only 8 points; an 80 was a solid C.
At many UK schools, 40 is passing, 60 is the equivalent of a B, and 70+ is functionally an A.
AR.
Here is a page about grading systems around the world. https://www.mastersportal.com/articles/2291/8-university-grading-systems-around-the-world-that-may-or-may-not-be-weird.html
In the US however, there seems to be remarkable uniformity that the cut off between and A and a B is 90%.
After final exams have been graded and final course scores released.
Stu Dent: "Professor, I have decided to take this class next semester, so the grades for my class will not be on my transcript since I have dropped."
Me: "You have not dropped the class. You are still enrolled in the class."
This one's pretty weird. I can't tell if the student has no idea just how the drop process works, or the message is so badly worded that I am not reading it correctly. But it *sounds* to me like the student thinks that he can *informally* drop the class at the end of the term, in lieu of receiving a non-passing letter grade?
Anyway, he's getting an F on his transcript.
Oh wait now it gets even better.
Stu Dent: "I sent emails to my academic advisor 1-2 months back about dropping the class, but I never heard back."
Wow. This person may be a candidate for my Top 10 list of most apathetic students.
"Professor, I think my grade on the rough draft was unfair. I worked really hard on that and I deserve a higher score. I would like to schedule a meeting to discuss this"
On a rough draft. The score they get is what they would receive if the rough draft were the final paper.
I HOPE she means a meeting to discuss how to improve the paper (extensively marked up and commented on), but I don't have much hope.
I got this gem from a graduate student:
QuoteThank you so much for making such nice slides for us. I just have one small problem with the slides. I am so scared of snakes. I am not able to look at the pictures of real snakes. Can you please replace the real snake picture with cartoon snakes? Some of the students may also be afraid of the pictures.
Snakes! Why did it have to be snakes?!
<g>
Quote from: Larimar on May 09, 2021, 05:56:28 PM
Snakes! Why did it have to be snakes?!
<g>
LOL!
I guess this is a situation that requires a trigger warning.
Not a voice mail, but an email. It hit all the highlights:
1) Professor not teaching properly,
2) Other students think s too
3) I'm an A student
4) Something MUST be done immediately
5) If you won't help I'll find someone who will.
Missing
1) What class?
2) What are the ACTUAL COMPLAINTS?
3) Contact information from student
I get that something MUST BE DONE in your opinion. But I can't without some basic information from you.
Quote from: FishProf on May 10, 2021, 08:54:24 AM
Missing
1) What class?
2) What are the ACTUAL COMPLAINTS?
3) Contact information from student
Does Stu address you by name? This may not even have been meant for you.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on May 10, 2021, 09:04:48 AM
Quote from: FishProf on May 10, 2021, 08:54:24 AM
Missing
1) What class?
2) What are the ACTUAL COMPLAINTS?
3) Contact information from student
Does Stu address you by name? This may not even have been meant for you.
AR.
They did. Repeatedly. They know who I am, but not, apparently, who their professor is.
FishProf, I'm reading these posts as inclusive of your tag line, which works especially well in this instance. Tough potatoes, student!
AR.
Quote from: FishProf on May 10, 2021, 08:54:24 AM
Not a voice mail, but an email. It hit all the highlights:
1) Professor not teaching properly,
2) Other students think s too
3) I'm an A student
4) Something MUST be done immediately
5) If you won't help I'll find someone who will.
Missing
1) What class?
2) What are the ACTUAL COMPLAINTS?
3) Contact information from student
I get that something MUST BE DONE in your opinion. But I can't without some basic information from you.
Well, since you are obviously not going to help, they'll find someone who will!
I have a boilerplate "incorrect message archived into bad email folder" response to most all student emails that are not properly addressed to me via course syllabus policy.
About half of the students who do this never email me back after receiving one of these messages.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on May 10, 2021, 09:43:06 AM
Quote from: FishProf on May 10, 2021, 08:54:24 AM
Not a voice mail, but an email. It hit all the highlights:
1) Professor not teaching properly,
2) Other students think s too
3) I'm an A student
4) Something MUST be done immediately
5) If you won't help I'll find someone who will.
Missing
1) What class?
2) What are the ACTUAL COMPLAINTS?
3) Contact information from student
I get that something MUST BE DONE in your opinion. But I can't without some basic information from you.
Well, since you are obviously not going to help, they'll find someone who will!
Can you image the next set of voicemails?
"Other professors" won't reply to my messages! I have a complaint about an unnamed professor teaching an unnamed class and I won't give you my contact information. But I need help RIGHT NOW.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on May 04, 2021, 08:00:25 AM
Quote from: ergative on May 04, 2021, 01:59:04 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on May 03, 2021, 02:01:43 PM
I just received an email that started with "Dear Name of Professor" and ended with "I can be reached at Email Address or at Phone Number."
There was content relevant to my course in the body of the email, but this really seems like a form letter...
Was the body of the email about changing a grade? Because if you scroll to the bottom of this page (https://essaydragon.com/blog/how-to-email-a-professor-about-your-grade), you'll find a sample form letter that fits your description.
See, students can do the research and follow formatting guidelines!
Yep. That's it!
How was the student's project about the endangered frogs in this county?
Quote from: FishProf on May 10, 2021, 08:54:24 AM
Not a voice mail, but an email. It hit all the highlights:
1) Professor not teaching properly,
2) Other students think s too
3) I'm an A student
4) Something MUST be done immediately
5) If you won't help I'll find someone who will.
How do forumites respond to the complaints that "other students think that you are (fill in the blanks here). I once advised the student to have the classmates contact me directly if they had problems.
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 11, 2021, 03:46:31 PM
Quote from: FishProf on May 10, 2021, 08:54:24 AM
Not a voice mail, but an email. It hit all the highlights:
1) Professor not teaching properly,
2) Other students think s too
3) I'm an A student
4) Something MUST be done immediately
5) If you won't help I'll find someone who will.
How do forumites respond to the complaints that "other students think that you are (fill in the blanks here). I once advised the student to have the classmates contact me directly if they had problems.
Exactly, I say something like "I cannot discuss other students in my meetings with you, just as I would not discuss you in my meetings with other students. Let's discuss your concerns/problem/performance in this class."
Now, with my some of my grad students (who work closely with me and I can get away with this), I say "Yup, word on the street is I'm a hardass. Now, what can I help you with today?"
"2.) When the quizzes were available they had a date of may 7th-21st so I was working to complete the work within that time frame because that is when I thought the assignments would close. Is there any way to reopen the assignments so I can complete them in order to pass the course? I am looking to graduate this semester and need to pass this course in order to do so. "
The due date was 7May21. The Final is DUE Friday.
The data format was used all semester. How did you not figure this out sooner?
Quote from: FishProf on May 12, 2021, 04:38:10 AM
"2.) When the quizzes were available they had a date of may 7th-21st so I was working to complete the work within that time frame because that is when I thought the assignments would close. Is there any way to reopen the assignments so I can complete them in order to pass the course? I am looking to graduate this semester and need to pass this course in order to do so. "
The due date was 7May21. The Final is DUE Friday.
The data format was used all semester. How did you not figure this out sooner?
Did the student really think they had until well after classes ended to complete their work? Or does your semester run WAY later than mine.
Quote from: onthefringe on May 12, 2021, 10:35:25 AM
Quote from: FishProf on May 12, 2021, 04:38:10 AM
"2.) When the quizzes were available they had a date of may 7th-21st so I was working to complete the work within that time frame because that is when I thought the assignments would close. Is there any way to reopen the assignments so I can complete them in order to pass the course? I am looking to graduate this semester and need to pass this course in order to do so. "
The due date was 7May21. The Final is DUE Friday.
The data format was used all semester. How did you not figure this out sooner?
Did the student really think they had until well after classes ended to complete their work? Or does your semester run WAY later than mine.?
Fixed that for you.
Got this lovely exchange this morning:
QuoteMy name is [student], I am a student in your [basketweaving] class. I would like to set up an appointment for office hours with you in order to talk about the [basketweaving] project.
If you could provide a good time for us to meet in the next week, preferably on the 21 or 22, that would be appreciated.
QuoteDear [student],
Thank you for your email. My Fridays are booked solid with meetings and I do not hold office hours on the weekends. However, I am available on Mondays during my normal office hours [times] and [other times]. If you would like to meet during my office hours, just click the link in the syllabus. If you'd like to meet Monday afternoon, let me know what time to expect you and I'll send a Zoom link.
Best,
Dr. [Geneticist]
Apparently "in the next week" did not include waiting until Monday.
QuoteThe availability of people in my group causes the weekend to be the ideal time to work on, and finish, the project. If you are not available for office hours over the weekend, would it be reasonable to ask you a few questions through your email instead?
QuoteAgain, my group will be too busy after sunday. If I may ask a question now, that would be preferred. I only have 1, though it could either be as simple as where to look or as inconvenient as you having to do some research and I understand that your time and schedule is important. If you reply granting me permission to ask my question, I will email you my question, if not, I will go over with my group and TA again to see if we can work something out.
OMG! Just ask your d@mn question. "permission to ask a question"?
It may be a cultural thing.
Some places are really more open to doing work-like stuff on weekends than we are, and some of those same places may instill a very specific kind of respect for instructors that could include not asking an unwarranted (as in unwelcome) question.
It might not, also, hard to know.
But that is a possibility.
M.
Students are presenting this week. I am getting a bunch of emails along the lines of "the presentation guidelines say to include [thing A], [thing B], and [thing C]. Do I need to include all of them?" or "I read I'm supposed to have [thing A], [thing B], and [thing C]. Can I put in [thing D] instead?"
It's sort of a victory since they at least read the guidelines. Now, they just need to follow them!
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 24, 2021, 09:23:39 AM
Students are presenting this week. I am getting a bunch of emails along the lines of "the presentation guidelines say to include [thing A], [thing B], and [thing C]. Do I need to include all of them?" or "I read I'm supposed to have [thing A], [thing B], and [thing C]. Can I put in [thing D] instead?"
It's sort of a victory since they at least read the guidelines. Now, they just need to follow them!
Yeah, it's kind of my plagiarism check. At least if they found something online, they had to reread and reorganize it and use my buzzwords enough that they did enough real work on it to grade them appropriately.
And the first of the "if I turn in ALL of my missing assignments by [date], can I pass?" emails are arriving.
1. No
2. Late work from more than 1 week ago is so late it earns a score of 0 points anyway.
3. It is not mathematically possible for you to pass, even if you earn 100% on the final
4. No
I don't know why these students didn't drop the class given the super, duper late deadline to drop.
Looks like I'll have a bunch of repeaters in Fall.
Student emails me and wants me to explain why stu has a midterm grade of "C." Not sure if the student is questioning why stu didn't get a "D" (considering both test grades were "D" grades). Basically, homework bumped this student up to a low "C" and I will attempt to explain that to stu. Wish me luck.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 01, 2021, 07:23:46 PM
Student emails me and wants me to explain why stu has a midterm grade of "C." Not sure if the student is questioning why stu didn't get a "D" (considering both test grades were "D" grades). Basically, homework bumped this student up to a low "C" and I will attempt to explain that to stu. Wish me luck.
Long long time ago, famous professor was confronted with a student's accusation that the F grade given was unfair. Famous person agreed, saying to the student that F was the lowest grade the administration allowed him to give.
Quote from: dismalist on July 01, 2021, 08:01:56 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 01, 2021, 07:23:46 PM
Student emails me and wants me to explain why stu has a midterm grade of "C." Not sure if the student is questioning why stu didn't get a "D" (considering both test grades were "D" grades). Basically, homework bumped this student up to a low "C" and I will attempt to explain that to stu. Wish me luck.
Long long time ago, famous professor was confronted with a student's accusation that the F grade given was unfair. Famous person agreed, saying to the student that F was the lowest grade the administration allowed him to give.
Peppermint Patty's teacher once gave her a "Z" grade. Patty protested. "Ma'am, that's not a grade, that's sarcasm!"
On another occasion she was excited to see that she had gotten an "N" score. Then she found out that she had accidentally turned the paper sideways....
QuoteHi Ms. or Mr. [first name],
This is [Hopeful Student], and I have enrolled in the fall course [Basketweaving 101], and also the Lab that will be instructed by you. I have a question, is it possible for me to take this lab course via online? Here are some of my reasons:
1. Because I am not in the country now, and I will come back to the US in fall. But the city where I live is now in a suspicious status, which means that lots of Covid-19 positive people were found. I do not want to risk anything.
2. According to the new U.S. policy, any people from a certain country (mine, [Country A]) will have to spend 15 days in another country first, like [Country B]. Then when I come back to the U.S. I have to spend another 15 days in quarantine. That is too much trouble.
3. I only need this Fall quarter to graduate, and afterward I will have to come back to my country again since that is the time when my Visa expires. So if I can take this class online (so far I only have this lab), I can save myself from buying flight tickets.
Please let me know soon, thank you.
Best,
Hopeful Student
No one NEEDS this particular class. It's one of many options to fulfill the graduation requirements for non-basketweavers. And thankfully our admin has said that we do not have to offer an online option for our in-person classes. I don't think students (or admin folks or folks who didn't have to create online classes) really understand that creating & teaching an online lab is just as much work as in-person. I'm not doing twice the work for the same pay, especially not when I know that we have more than enough demand to fill all of the in-person sections.
Dear Hopeful Student,
Thank you for your email. [Basketweaving 101] labs will all be taught in-person in Fall 2021. I suggest you talk with your academic advisor on how to best fulfill your graduation requirements.
Best,
Dr. [Geneticist]
Class hasn't started and I've already received:
"Hey there! I'm in your class MWF at 2pm. I have a class that ends at 1:50pm and I wanted to know if it was ok if I was a little late everyday or if I need to make other arrangements."
Quote from: RatGuy on August 17, 2021, 01:50:09 PM
Class hasn't started and I've already received:
"Hey there! I'm in your class MWF at 2pm. I have a class that ends at 1:50pm and I wanted to know if it was ok if I was a little late everyday or if I need to make other arrangements."
Fantasy reply: you could try walking faster.
Quote from: RatGuy on August 17, 2021, 01:50:09 PM
Class hasn't started and I've already received:
"Hey there! I'm in your class MWF at 2pm. I have a class that ends at 1:50pm and I wanted to know if it was ok if I was a little late everyday or if I need to make other arrangements."
I would give that student an A. Mine never figure this out until the first week.
Depends on whether the campus is big enough to not reasonably able to walk between class locations.
But you ought to work on 'hey there' nonetheless.
Quote from: the_geneticist on August 17, 2021, 02:13:42 PM
Quote from: RatGuy on August 17, 2021, 01:50:09 PM
Class hasn't started and I've already received:
"Hey there! I'm in your class MWF at 2pm. I have a class that ends at 1:50pm and I wanted to know if it was ok if I was a little late everyday or if I need to make other arrangements."
Fantasy reply: you could try walking faster.
Other Fantasy Reply: I see you have Professor Runsover. I promise to smack him in the head twice a day every day until he lets his classes out on time.
Quote from: quasihumanist on August 17, 2021, 11:21:31 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on August 17, 2021, 02:13:42 PM
Quote from: RatGuy on August 17, 2021, 01:50:09 PM
Class hasn't started and I've already received:
"Hey there! I'm in your class MWF at 2pm. I have a class that ends at 1:50pm and I wanted to know if it was ok if I was a little late everyday or if I need to make other arrangements."
Fantasy reply: you could try walking faster.
Other Fantasy Reply: I see you have Professor Runsover. I promise to smack him in the head twice a day every day until he lets his classes out on time.
Provided it's not the stop at the coffee shop between classes that's causing the problem.....
Interthreaduality.
Stu email says, 'Hi. I'll most likely miss the 1st week of class due to Covid.' This is a high school student taking college courses.
Damn semester hasn't even started yet.
Quote from: RatGuy on August 17, 2021, 01:50:09 PM
Class hasn't started and I've already received:
"Hey there! I'm in your class MWF at 2pm. I have a class that ends at 1:50pm and I wanted to know if it was ok if I was a little late everyday or if I need to make other arrangements."
Is that an unreasonable question? My campus has classes on opposite ends of a large campus. The buses back up and you can't reliably get to the other side of campus in ten minutes. I tell students to do their best, but I won't count them as late.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 18, 2021, 10:00:31 AM
Interthreaduality.
Stu email says, 'Hi. I'll most likely miss the 1st week of class due to Covid.' This is a high school student taking college courses.
Damn semester hasn't even started yet.
Wait, when do your classes start? If it's next week and the student is currently sick, then I'd tell them to "rest up and feel better soon".
Otherwise, they need to provide more information. "due to Covid" is not a blanket excuse for missing class.
My money is on the student being on vacation that week & not wanting to admit that they will be in Vegas/Cabo/where ever.
Student says they will be absent for four weeks out of the semester due to being on vacation and needs leniency on late work for that period.
Students states they are a very good student who has made the Dean's list every semester. In fact, the dean reportedly told student they "must absolutely go on the vacation this semester despite missing so much class." The students academic advisor apparently also told the student they must go on this four week vacation during the semester.
Quote from: Charlotte on August 18, 2021, 03:02:32 PM
Student says they will be absent for four weeks out of the semester due to being on vacation and needs leniency on late work for that period.
Students states they are a very good student who has made the Dean's list every semester. In fact, the dean reportedly told student they "must absolutely go on the vacation this semester despite missing so much class." The students academic advisor apparently also told the student they must go on this four week vacation during the semester.
LOL
Quote from: Charlotte on August 18, 2021, 03:02:32 PM
Student says they will be absent for four weeks out of the semester due to being on vacation and needs leniency on late work for that period.
Students states they are a very good student who has made the Dean's list every semester. In fact, the dean reportedly told student they "must absolutely go on the vacation this semester despite missing so much class." The students academic advisor apparently also told the student they must go on this four week vacation during the semester.
It apparently does not occur to some students that we communicate with one another and also know more about how college actually works than they do. These same students are generally surprised that we can see their activity (or lack thereof) on the LMS.
Quote from: Charlotte on August 18, 2021, 03:02:32 PM
Student says they will be absent for four weeks out of the semester due to being on vacation and needs leniency on late work for that period.
Students states they are a very good student who has made the Dean's list every semester. In fact, the dean reportedly told student they "must absolutely go on the vacation this semester despite missing so much class." The students academic advisor apparently also told the student they must go on this four week vacation during the semester.
That gives me an idea...
Dear Chair:
As you know, I'm a very good employee. In fact, the dean told me that I "must absolutely go on the vacation this Fall despite missing so much class." [etc. etc.]
See you in October,
suckers.
dc
Quote from: Charlotte on August 18, 2021, 03:02:32 PM
Student says they will be absent for four weeks out of the semester due to being on vacation and needs leniency on late work for that period.
Students states they are a very good student who has made the Dean's list every semester. In fact, the dean reportedly told student they "must absolutely go on the vacation this semester despite missing so much class." The students academic advisor apparently also told the student they must go on this four week vacation during the semester.
Good Lord! The entitlement...
Quote from: dr_codex on August 18, 2021, 04:15:22 PM
Quote from: Charlotte on August 18, 2021, 03:02:32 PM
Student says they will be absent for four weeks out of the semester due to being on vacation and needs leniency on late work for that period.
Students states they are a very good student who has made the Dean's list every semester. In fact, the dean reportedly told student they "must absolutely go on the vacation this semester despite missing so much class." The students academic advisor apparently also told the student they must go on this four week vacation during the semester.
That gives me an idea...
Dear Chair:
As you know, I'm a very good employee. In fact, the dean told me that I "must absolutely go on the vacation this Fall despite missing so much class." [etc. etc.]
See you in October, suckers.
dc
Damn, I wish this could work for me.
Quote from: Charlotte on August 18, 2021, 03:02:32 PM
Student says they will be absent for four weeks out of the semester due to being on vacation and needs leniency on late work for that period.
Students states they are a very good student who has made the Dean's list every semester. In fact, the dean reportedly told student they "must absolutely go on the vacation this semester despite missing so much class." The students academic advisor apparently also told the student they must go on this four week vacation during the semester.
I think the student misquoted/misinterpreted the dean, who said, "You must absolutely get lost, for as long as possible! Don't worry about missing classes, just GO!"
Quote from: marshwiggle on August 19, 2021, 04:09:00 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on August 18, 2021, 03:02:32 PM
Student says they will be absent for four weeks out of the semester due to being on vacation and needs leniency on late work for that period.
Students states they are a very good student who has made the Dean's list every semester. In fact, the dean reportedly told student they "must absolutely go on the vacation this semester despite missing so much class." The students academic advisor apparently also told the student they must go on this four week vacation during the semester.
I think the student misquoted/misinterpreted the dean, who said, "You must absolutely get lost, for as long as possible! Don't worry about missing classes, just GO!"
Ha, although seriously, I guess I could imagine someone saying "sure, go, sounds like fun, you're young and if you can afford it, take the semester off!" and the student misses the second part.
Quote from: Charlotte on August 18, 2021, 03:02:32 PM
Student says they will be absent for four weeks out of the semester due to being on vacation and needs leniency on late work for that period.
Students states they are a very good student who has made the Dean's list every semester. In fact, the dean reportedly told student they "must absolutely go on the vacation this semester despite missing so much class." The students academic advisor apparently also told the student they must go on this four week vacation during the semester.
Can I go too?
Damn. That takes the cake for the most brazenly entitled email!
I'd forward it to the advisor, but I'm evil like that.
Quote from: the_geneticist on August 19, 2021, 07:43:38 AM
I'd forward it to the advisor, but I'm evil like that.
I'd also forward. I see nothing evil about it. Important for all relevant parties to be aware of what this student claims and does, especially if said parties are named by student. As most of us know, what a student claims a campus employee said and what was actually said don't always match up. Plus, important to alert everyone to student's modus operandi so they're not blindsided in future.
I would also forward this to the Chair and the Dean, especially since Stu invokes the latter.
In my institution a four-week absence would result in an automatic withdrawal--don't you have to submit "Not attending" reports around the third week?
Ironically, this is a "favorite" email due to the fact that the student is not writing back or taking the advice.
QuoteDear [missing lots of work] student,
I see that you have not turned in 2 of the worksheets in [Intro to Baskets]. As a reminder, the worksheets are worth X points each and all together are worth a substantial part of your grade. As of now, you are earning a D+ in the course, even with your 96% on the Midterm. I would encourage you to read the syllabus for the point breakdown in the course & contact me or your TA if you have questions about the worksheets.
Best,
[Dr. Geneticist]
P.S. Students are not allowed to take [Intro to Baskets] more than twice unless there are exceptional circumstances. I know you did not pass in Spring. Please let me know if you have any questions about the course or how it is graded.
Followed by
QuoteDear [missing lots of work] student,
You have scored 0 points out of [N points] on the last 4 worksheets in your [Intro to Baskets] class. You are currently earning a grade of 62%. At this point, it is not mathematically possible to pass [Intro to Baskets] without completing the weekly worksheet assignments. Please come talk with me during my office hours.
Also, I know you did not pass [Intro to Baskets] in Spring 2021. Students are NOT allowed to attempt [Intro to Baskets] more than twice without special permission from their advisor. If you need [Intro to Baskets] for your major, then you really need to plan out how to earn a passing grade.
Best,
[Dr. Geneticist]
Followed by:
QuoteDear [missing lots of work] student,
As of today, you are earning 52.71% in [Intro to Baskets] , which is a letter grade on an "F". If you earn every single one of the remaining points in the class, then the highest grade you could earn in a C-. That does assume that you turn in your missing worksheet from this week, which is already late. Please see the grade scale in the syllabus for more information on grade cutoffs for this course. Also, students are not allowed to take [Intro to Baskets] a third time without special permission. Failing [Intro to Baskets] also means you cannot take [Honors Intro to Baskets]. I suggest that you contact your academic advisor for advice on how to best complete your major.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
I know I can't care more than they do, but most of the time a student with no hope of passing will drop the class (and the occasional "But a B will RUIN my life! student will drop once it's clear they can't earn an A).
With the pandemic, I'm guessing their advisor will sign off on the 3rd attempt and I'll be seeing [missing lots of work] student in person in Fall. Let's hope they do better with in person classes.
The student's advisor has the power to authorize such an exemption, over the wishes of the course professor/ dept chair?
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 25, 2021, 09:28:29 PM
The student's advisor has the power to authorize such an exemption, over the wishes of the course professor/ dept chair?
They can approve a request to not be blocked from registering, but the repeating students have last registration priority. First time takers register first and if there are any seats left, then repeat students can register. And you can't repeat if you earned a passing grade. None of this "I'll retake freshmen (baskets) to get a better GPA" nonsense.
This one the week before the semester started:
Hello Good Morning Dr. [bio_nonymous]
I am going to be in your class this upcoming fall semester and was wondering what textbooks do I absolutely need to obtain for the course? I ran into not using a few textbooks at all last semester so I thought that I would ask. I know it says that the book is required for this class, but do we really need to get the book?
Thank you,
[Bemused Student]
No one "favorite", just a whole bunch of emails:
a) Asking something that is clearly stated on the syllabus
b) Saying they know the syllabus says X but they just want to double-check
c) Asking if they can take a class clearly marked on the schedule as in person fully remote
Answers:
a) Please see syllabus
b) You can trust the syllabus
c) No, go sign up for one of the online classes
Quote from: Puget on August 27, 2021, 01:24:38 PM
No one "favorite", just a whole bunch of emails:
a) Asking something that is clearly stated on the syllabus
b) Saying they know the syllabus says X but they just want to double-check
c) Asking if they can take a class clearly marked on the schedule as in person fully remote
Answers:
a) Please see syllabus
b) You can trust the syllabus
c) No, go sign up for one of the online classes
I'm waiting for the "can I take this class remote?" emails, especially for the [Baskets 101 for non-Basketweavers].
No
Your choices are: come to class or get dropped for non-attendance.
The waitlisted students will be very happy to be offered a seat.
Quote from: bio-nonymous on August 27, 2021, 01:20:39 PM
This one the week before the semester started:
Hello Good Morning Dr. [bio_nonymous]
I am going to be in your class this upcoming fall semester and was wondering what textbooks do I absolutely need to obtain for the course? I ran into not using a few textbooks at all last semester so I thought that I would ask. I know it says that the book is required for this class, but do we really need to get the book?
Thank you,
[Bemused Student]
I received a bolder question a few years ago. The student wanted to know if it was possible to earn a grade of "A" without having the main textbook (the assumption being that a general education course should be extremely easy).
Not one of my students, but today a grad student emailed the entire department taking issue with the university mask mandate (masks are required indoors but faculty are not allowed to discipline random students for failing to wear a mask). The grad student accused the chair of supporting the university's plan to actively kill students. When someone else replied-all that the chair has no say in the university mandate, the grad student responded with "you are doing white supremacy's homework," "gaslighting" health-conscious students, and have done "irreparable harm." It has since become a grad student dogpile. As of yet, neither the chair or the director of grad studies has responded.
School starts next week. I got the following email today.
"Hi Professor Jay,
I am taking your introduction to basket weaving class, and I am happy to be finally taking an in-person class since Covid began. I just want to let you know that for the first few weeks of class I will have a heart monitor on. If I seem to be writing in a notebook at any point it is me just writing down my symptoms."
My first reaction was, I hope he is okay and I am glad he let me know. But then I thought a minute and realized that not too long ago, if I saw a student writing in a notebook during class, I would assume he was taking notes in class. Is writing in a notebook so strange nowadays that students feel compelled to explain?
Quote from: Anon1787 on August 27, 2021, 03:37:48 PM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on August 27, 2021, 01:20:39 PM
This one the week before the semester started:
Hello Good Morning Dr. [bio_nonymous]
I am going to be in your class this upcoming fall semester and was wondering what textbooks do I absolutely need to obtain for the course? I ran into not using a few textbooks at all last semester so I thought that I would ask. I know it says that the book is required for this class, but do we really need to get the book?
Thank you,
[Bemused Student]
I received a bolder question a few years ago. The student wanted to know if it was possible to earn a grade of "A" without having the main textbook (the assumption being that a general education course should be extremely easy).
The worst part of the email I didn't mention before: the class is a basic science requisite of professional graduate medical education--this was no clueless freshman!
Quote from: bio-nonymous on August 30, 2021, 11:19:39 AM
Quote from: Anon1787 on August 27, 2021, 03:37:48 PM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on August 27, 2021, 01:20:39 PM
This one the week before the semester started:
Hello Good Morning Dr. [bio_nonymous]
I am going to be in your class this upcoming fall semester and was wondering what textbooks do I absolutely need to obtain for the course? I ran into not using a few textbooks at all last semester so I thought that I would ask. I know it says that the book is required for this class, but do we really need to get the book?
Thank you,
[Bemused Student]
I received a bolder question a few years ago. The student wanted to know if it was possible to earn a grade of "A" without having the main textbook (the assumption being that a general education course should be extremely easy).
The worst part of the email I didn't mention before: the class is a basic science requisite of professional graduate medical education--this was no clueless freshman!
Having bought books in college that were barely touched, I can't say I blame the student for wanting to make sure.
Some of my colleagues do that as well - spec a book but then end up doing their own thing all semester.
Quote from: ciao_yall on August 30, 2021, 12:30:12 PM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on August 30, 2021, 11:19:39 AM
Quote from: Anon1787 on August 27, 2021, 03:37:48 PM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on August 27, 2021, 01:20:39 PM
This one the week before the semester started:
Hello Good Morning Dr. [bio_nonymous]
I am going to be in your class this upcoming fall semester and was wondering what textbooks do I absolutely need to obtain for the course? I ran into not using a few textbooks at all last semester so I thought that I would ask. I know it says that the book is required for this class, but do we really need to get the book?
Thank you,
[Bemused Student]
I received a bolder question a few years ago. The student wanted to know if it was possible to earn a grade of "A" without having the main textbook (the assumption being that a general education course should be extremely easy).
The worst part of the email I didn't mention before: the class is a basic science requisite of professional graduate medical education--this was no clueless freshman!
Having bought books in college that were barely touched, I can't say I blame the student for wanting to make sure.
Some of my colleagues do that as well - spec a book but then end up doing their own thing all semester.
The flip-side to that is the students who get upset with you because you DO use the book that they were required to buy. One of my all time favorite RMP complaints was from a student warning others that they would have to actually do the assigned reading because I asked questions about it on the tests. I had that very info in three different places on my syllabus. I used to pull up that review on the first day of class just in case my new students didn't think I was serious.
Alas, compatriots, all of the above, all of it, shows that the snowflakes are completely rational: It matters not that one learns, but rather it matters to graduate -- as easily as possible. All this just shows that most of higher ed is signalling, not learning.
If attendance got one an A, the customers would want letters from doctors excusing them from attending!
Let's continue.
There is no way to win. Either you require the book & use it a lot & get complaints that you "teach from the book" or you try without a book & get complaints that "they really wanted a book". We have a really hard time convincing the [Basketweaving majors] that they NEED to buy and KEEP a copy of [Big Book of Baskets]. I get the temptation to rent a copy, but it ends up costing more to rent it multiple times than buying it once. And if you buy it, you should KEEP it. Selling it back & buying it again is not a good plan.
An actual favorite (I think?)-- after the first class a student sent me an email profusely thanking me for making it so fun and welcoming and easing their anxieties as an international student. On the one hand, who doesn't like effusive praise? On the other hand, I don't think I did anything that remarkable -- I had them form groups and introduce themselves and exchange contact info in their group, we did some interactive stuff (it's a flipped class, so the in person part is always really interactive), and I have some humane course policies which I highlighted. The fact that the student seemed to find this extraordinary makes me wonder a bit what my colleagues are doing. . .
Email in its entirety:
"I'm confused"
On follow up, he was indeed confused. Turned out to be looking for the syllabus quiz for a different course on the LMS page for my course.
Quote from: onthefringe on August 31, 2021, 05:08:16 PM
Email in its entirety:
"I'm confused"
On follow up, he was indeed confused. Turned out to be looking for the syllabus quiz for a different course on the LMS page for my course.
Hey, well at least he
read it! (Enough to know it was the wrong one, at any rate.)
Quote from: Puget on August 31, 2021, 09:35:54 AM
An actual favorite (I think?)-- after the first class a student sent me an email profusely thanking me for making it so fun and welcoming and easing their anxieties as an international student. On the one hand, who doesn't like effusive praise? On the other hand, I don't think I did anything that remarkable -- I had them form groups and introduce themselves and exchange contact info in their group, we did some interactive stuff (it's a flipped class, so the in person part is always really interactive), and I have some humane course policies which I highlighted. The fact that the student seemed to find this extraordinary makes me wonder a bit what my colleagues are doing. . .
Sometimes it's the seemingly simple things that click with somebody and make a real difference. Anyway, congratulations on a classroom victory!
This could also be in 'teaching despair'.
Sept. 2
Student: I haven't received any assigned time to join the online classes for the same course. I request you to give me details regarding the joining time of the same.
Me: The university scheduled 110-02 as an asynchronous online course. If you check the syllabus, however, you'll see that I'm also running synchronous help sessions once a week at the appointed time.
Sept. 5
Student: Kindly please tell me where can I join the synchronus help sessions through the week for 110-02. Also, can you please tell me where to check the syllabus for the same.
Me: Check the 'welcome and course format' section at the very beginning of the syllabus.
Sept. 6
Student: Kindly please help me with synchronus help sessions as I am unable to find where and when to join. Also, the 'welcome and course format' you mentioned earlier is to be opened in elearn application or somewhere else? I will be very grateful if I get helped with this situation.
Me: The 'welcome and course format' is the very first section of the syllabus. The syllabus and all other course documents are available on eLearn. There, you'll also find the links to our help sessions.
This is for a critical thinking class which starts tomorrow. Although I suppose, in fairness, that the student hasn't yet completed the course...
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 06, 2021, 08:52:53 AM
This could also be in 'teaching despair'.
Sept. 2
Student: I haven't received any assigned time to join the online classes for the same course. I request you to give me details regarding the joining time of the same.
Me: The university scheduled 110-02 as an asynchronous online course. If you check the syllabus, however, you'll see that I'm also running synchronous help sessions once a week at the appointed time.
Sept. 5
Student: Kindly please tell me where can I join the synchronus help sessions through the week for 110-02. Also, can you please tell me where to check the syllabus for the same.
Me: Check the 'welcome and course format' section at the very beginning of the syllabus.
Sept. 6
Student: Kindly please help me with synchronus help sessions as I am unable to find where and when to join. Also, the 'welcome and course format' you mentioned earlier is to be opened in elearn application or somewhere else? I will be very grateful if I get helped with this situation.
Me: The 'welcome and course format' is the very first section of the syllabus. The syllabus and all other course documents are available on eLearn. There, you'll also find the links to our help sessions.
This is for a critical thinking class which starts tomorrow. Although I suppose, in fairness, that the student hasn't yet completed the course...
ESL student?
Quote from: Langue_doc on September 06, 2021, 08:56:48 AM
ESL student?
Probably, yeah. It has the ring of direct translation to it. Given the trouble they're having finding stuff, I'm worried they're going to try to do the course on their phone.
Email in its entirety.
"I registered for your online class. What am I suppose to do next, because I did not see the class on Canvas."
Stu doesn't seem to have logged on to hu's account yet.
Quote from: Langue_doc on September 09, 2021, 12:38:25 PM
Email in its entirety.
"I registered for your online class. What am I suppose to do next, because I did not see the class on Canvas."
Stu doesn't seem to have logged on to hu's account yet.
I had one like that last semester; I had to explain that she needed to click on the modules and the items in them, not just stare at the screen.
I've had a bunch of students e-mail asking me about this that or the other, without telling me which class they were asking about.
Email regarding textbook:
"And when do we have to get the textbook by ?"
One of the assignments for this week requires students to review certain concepts from the textbook.
Quote from: quasihumanist on September 09, 2021, 09:33:58 PM
I've had a bunch of students e-mail asking me about this that or the other, without telling me which class they were asking about.
Same! I have a template to copy and paste back.
Dear student,
Thank you for your email. I teach several classes. Please tell me which exact class and section you are taking. I need to know who you are so I can best answer your questions.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
Quote from: the_geneticist on September 10, 2021, 07:58:03 AM
Quote from: quasihumanist on September 09, 2021, 09:33:58 PM
I've had a bunch of students e-mail asking me about this that or the other, without telling me which class they were asking about.
Same! I have a template to copy and paste back.
Dear student,
Thank you for your email. I teach several classes. Please tell me which exact class and section you are taking. I need to know who you are so I can best answer your questions.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
Yeah, lazy incomplete student emails are just not something that one should have to tolerate in Higher Ed.
My template reads as an automated spam response.
"incomplete message archived into bad email folder". And then I chuck the email into a folder called "bad email" that I never look at again. All of my course syllabi require that students send me emails that are written in business etiquette, or else they won't be responded to and their messages will be archived and not answered.
I picked up that technique from this forum. It saves me so much time and also teaches students to adult up.
Not emails but I just got the info forms with mini-bios for my first-year advisees. Most are pretty standard, some a bit braggadocios, some charmingly nerdy and/or naive, but a few of them-- holy inappropriate levels of self-disclosure batman!
I'm getting the "Help! You MUST let me take your class emails".
The [Basketweaving for basket weavers 101] has OPEN SEATS. Just. Pick. One. I know you don't WANT to take a class that starts at 9/is on a Thursday/is taught during lunch/some other picky reason. Too bad. Welcome to college!
The [Baskets for non basket folks] is full. But no one NEEDS this specific class. Take something else!
So glad I do not have the ability to add, drop, or change their registration.
Quote from: the_geneticist on September 11, 2021, 07:46:05 AM
I'm getting the "Help! You MUST let me take your class emails".
The [Basketweaving for basket weavers 101] has OPEN SEATS. Just. Pick. One. I know you don't WANT to take a class that starts at 9/is on a Thursday/is taught during lunch/some other picky reason. Too bad. Welcome to college!
The [Baskets for non basket folks] is full. But no one NEEDS this specific class. Take something else!
So glad I do not have the ability to add, drop, or change their registration.
And the "I am an international student and must have 12 units..." email.
Typically these happen 3rd or 4th week when said student figures out they were dropped for non-attendance from their enrolled classes.
The aforementioned instructor is not really interested in re-engaging them, just to have to drop them again and hear all about it when finals roll around.
I get about 60 or so of those every semester. It's awful, and made worse by the fact that I do control the waitlist and, thus, am functionally responsible for denying these students their study permits. Sigh.
"Your class was the best class I ever took" emails :)
Quote from: adel9216 on September 13, 2021, 07:09:48 AM
"Your class was the best class I ever took" emails :)
Very nice!
In it's entirety:
"Subject: Helop!
just how to nativage through links on blackboard and quiz dates and scheduled date and times"
Online courses can be tough...
Oh dear! I should be more appreciative of my students, none of whom have ever misspelled "help".
ETA: Stu upthread who emailed me "And when do we have to get the textbook by ?" earned 0 in an assignment because Stu didn't submit the same. Stu now emails me within minutes of that assignment being graded: "Hi, you gave me a 0 on of the assignments. Can you tell me what i did wrong so i can fix it?" Stu, read the syllabus and the module. Read the directions for that assignment. See my comment to the effect that the assignment was not submitted. Please review capitalization conventions as lower case first-person singular pronouns are an abomination!
None of mine have, so far, either. One thing to be grateful for!
On the other hand, I received this today:
Good Morning Professor, I have a question about the first quiz? What do we need to read before taking the quiz because the reading that is on the modules doesn't fit with the questions being asked to answer. I hope this email reaches you. Thank you.
Well, sometimes I make bone-headed mistakes, so I immediately looked at the quiz announcement that specified the material to be covered (it is correct); I went to Student View and checked that the readings were available (they are); and I checked the quiz, which covers exactly what I said it would cover. I can't imagine what he's referring to! I have written back, but as yet he has not responded.
Quote from: FishProf on September 13, 2021, 09:58:46 AM
In it's entirety:
"Subject: Helop!
just how to nativage through links on blackboard and quiz dates and scheduled date and times"
Online courses can be tough...
Maybe you should try adding a tutorial for your students on how to nativage, if you don't have one already? I'd have been lost when I took online classes years ago if it hadn't been for the instructor's clear tutorial on how to nativage. Nativaging isn't really that hard once you've had it explained to you.
Quote from: apl68 on September 13, 2021, 10:57:51 AM
Quote from: FishProf on September 13, 2021, 09:58:46 AM
In it's entirety:
"Subject: Helop!
just how to nativage through links on blackboard and quiz dates and scheduled date and times"
Online courses can be tough...
Maybe you should try adding a tutorial for your students on how to nativage, if you don't have one already? I'd have been lost when I took online classes years ago if it hadn't been for the instructor's clear tutorial on how to nativage. Nativaging isn't really that hard once you've had it explained to you.
Canvas is quite straightforward. The first page directs students to click on the "Start here" link which brings them to a page describing how "nativage" Canvas, Canvas training videos and contact information for tech support, the syllabus, and a list of strategies for being a successful online student. At the end of that page, they have to click on "Next" which brings them to the first module. These are digital natives!
Quote from: apl68 on September 13, 2021, 10:57:51 AM
Quote from: FishProf on September 13, 2021, 09:58:46 AM
In it's entirety:
"Subject: Helop!
just how to nativage through links on blackboard and quiz dates and scheduled date and times"
Online courses can be tough...
Maybe you should try adding a tutorial for your students on how to nativage, if you don't have one already? I'd have been lost when I took online classes years ago if it hadn't been for the instructor's clear tutorial on how to nativage. Nativaging isn't really that hard once you've had it explained to you.
It's there. And for every single item that gets posted, an announcement, with a link, is generated.
And it is in the syllabus. And the tutorial video.
Quote from: FishProf on September 13, 2021, 11:28:33 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 13, 2021, 10:57:51 AM
Quote from: FishProf on September 13, 2021, 09:58:46 AM
In it's entirety:
"Subject: Helop!
just how to nativage through links on blackboard and quiz dates and scheduled date and times"
Online courses can be tough...
Maybe you should try adding a tutorial for your students on how to nativage, if you don't have one already? I'd have been lost when I took online classes years ago if it hadn't been for the instructor's clear tutorial on how to nativage. Nativaging isn't really that hard once you've had it explained to you.
It's there. And for every single item that gets posted, an announcement, with a link, is generated.
And it is in the syllabus. And the tutorial video.
I think the point in apl68's answer was the spoof on the mispelled?/neologism:
Quote"nativage"
;--》
M.
Quote from: mamselle on September 13, 2021, 11:51:29 AM
I think the point in apl68's answer was the spoof on the mispelled?/neologism:
Quote"nativage"
;--》
M.
Ah I see. Then i will need a nativaging tutorial myself. Helop!
Thank you for the helop in getting my point across, mamselle.
Always glad to obilge.
M.
Quote from: Langue_doc on September 13, 2021, 10:24:34 AM
ETA: Stu upthread who emailed me "And when do we have to get the textbook by ?" earned 0 in an assignment because Stu didn't submit the same. Stu now emails me within minutes of that assignment being graded: "Hi, you gave me a 0 on of the assignments. Can you tell me what i did wrong so i can fix it?" Stu, read the syllabus and the module. Read the directions for that assignment. See my comment to the effect that the assignment was not submitted. Please review capitalization conventions as lower case first-person singular pronouns are an abomination!
The above was at 1:39 PM. Email at 4:35 PM: "Hello , you gave me a 0 on of the assignments and I completed the assignments. Can you tell me what i did wrong please ?"
Email at 4:40 PM: "Hi , i wasn't aware of the second assignment that's as due Sunday . I've been so busy with my other assignments. Can you unlock it so i can complete? So sorry for the mistake"
My syllabus notes that I respond to emails M-F, 9-5, within 24 hours, so I'm going to wait until tomorrow morning to respond to the "My other courses are more important than the one you're teaching" whine. It's going to be a looooong semester.
My favorite (email) from today: Can you please send me your email address? I couldn't find it in the course web site and I want to ask some questions.
First, you have sent me an email before (and now) using the LMS communications tool. We have stated on the syllabus and on the course website that all communication regarding this class is to be through the LMS communications tool. So, no, I will not send you my email address. You already have it!
Quote from: arcturus on September 13, 2021, 04:06:36 PM
My favorite (email) from today: Can you please send me your email address? I couldn't find it in the course web site and I want to ask some questions.
First, you have sent me an email before (and now) using the LMS communications tool. We have stated on the syllabus and on the course website that all communication regarding this class is to be through the LMS communications tool. So, no, I will not send you my email address. You already have it!
Dear Stu,
Save this email. When you need to email me, open this email and hit "Reply".
Dr Arcturus
Just got an email from one of the students in my class. The student said he simply forgot to attend the lecture... first time I have heard of such a "confession".
Got this one LATE last night:
QuoteDear Mrs. [not my name],
My name is [frantic 5th year], I'm currently a 5th year senior desperately trying to graduate as soon as possible. I'm writing to ask for a seat in your [freshmen basketweaving] lab as I only need the lab credits. If you could allow me to attend your lab that would be greatly appreciated and really go a long way in helping me graduate within 2 quarters, I desperately need to take this course this quarter. I've had a really rough few years but I've set this goal to graduate and I really need this seat, it would mean a lot to me to get your approval. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Frantic 5th Year
There are open seats! Just register*. Seriously. You don't need my permission.
Also, if you're a 5th year, you should have registered for this class BACK IN JUNE.
*assuming you have passed the prerequisites. No, they cannot be waived. Don't bother to ask.
Stu complaining about having to rush to complete assignments now wants extra time on all assignments:
" i cannot complete everything to the best of my ability with the current time constraints. could i please have extra time on assignments? thank you for understanding."
Quote from: Langue_doc on September 18, 2021, 02:06:21 PM
Stu complaining about having to rush to complete assignments now wants extra time on all assignments:
" i cannot complete everything to the best of my ability with the current time constraints. could i please have extra time on assignments? thank you for understanding."
Ugh. Can we tell students that we DON'T expect their best efforts on everything? Sometimes "good enough is good enough". There are so many high stress students that would be "mortified" to earn an 8/10 on a quiz and end up with 0/10 since they just don't turn it in.
I might well reply that the only students who get extra time on tests are those certified as having a disability.
Quote from: the_geneticist on September 20, 2021, 02:24:00 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on September 18, 2021, 02:06:21 PM
Stu complaining about having to rush to complete assignments now wants extra time on all assignments:
" i cannot complete everything to the best of my ability with the current time constraints. could i please have extra time on assignments? thank you for understanding."
Ugh. Can we tell students that we DON'T expect their best efforts on everything? Sometimes "good enough is good enough". There are so many high stress students that would be "mortified" to earn an 8/10 on a quiz and end up with 0/10 since they just don't turn it in.
Stu waited until Thursday or Friday to complete assignments that were available early morning on Monday. The first of Stu's two emails was sent just before 5 PM on Friday and the second a few minutes after 5.
Downer, Stu does get extra time for timed tests and exams, but not for assignments that are open for an entire week.
Quote from: Langue_doc on September 21, 2021, 09:45:10 AM
Downer, Stu does get extra time for timed tests and exams, but not for assignments that are open for an entire week.
Then it is something for the student to negotiate with your disability services office, not you.
Quote from: downer on September 21, 2021, 10:08:54 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on September 21, 2021, 09:45:10 AM
Downer, Stu does get extra time for timed tests and exams, but not for assignments that are open for an entire week.
Then it is something for the student to negotiate with your disability services office, not you.
Pretty sure any student that asks for "more time" on an
untimed assignment that has been available for 5 days would be told "NO". Might be better to direct them to a time management or study skills class. You know, the whole "the due date is not the day you do it".
10% of the class has some kind of disability accommodation - typically more time on exams, quiet testing place etc.
For some people, real life is going to be a serious kick in the balls.
Quote from: the_geneticist on September 21, 2021, 10:42:56 AM
Quote from: downer on September 21, 2021, 10:08:54 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on September 21, 2021, 09:45:10 AM
Downer, Stu does get extra time for timed tests and exams, but not for assignments that are open for an entire week.
Then it is something for the student to negotiate with your disability services office, not you.
Pretty sure any student that asks for "more time" on an untimed assignment that has been available for 5 days would be told "NO". Might be better to direct them to a time management or study skills class. You know, the whole "the due date is not the day you do it".
Stu was told "no" in no uncertain terms, and directed to the syllabus and the "student success" checklist for online courses.
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 21, 2021, 11:11:30 AM
10% of the class has some kind of disability accommodation - typically more time on exams, quiet testing place etc.
For some people, real life is going to be a serious kick in the balls.
No for real life, some peoples' contributions, which they would have been unable to make otherwise, in a few years, will be much appreciated.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on September 21, 2021, 01:06:26 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 21, 2021, 11:11:30 AM
10% of the class has some kind of disability accommodation - typically more time on exams, quiet testing place etc.
For some people, real life is going to be a serious kick in the balls.
No for real life, some peoples' contributions, which they would have been unable to make otherwise, in a few years, will be much appreciated.
M.
You and I live in different worlds with different expectations.
I teach in 2 health fields. The pace of practice is brutally quick. The environment can be chaotic. "I need more time and a quiet place to do my work" is NOT going to cut it when the patient is seizing or the phone is ringing off the hook with people wanting to know if they qualify for a 3rd covid shot or worried about the last disaster Dr Facebook warned them about. I bet your graduates actually have time to eat lunch and pee in their workplaces. Mine often don't.
Got one today:
QuoteHello Professor [Geneticist],
Hello, my name is [slightly baffled] and I am in your [Basketweaving lab] this quarter. I am confused as to whether the lab course, [course number], is online like our lecture or is it in person. I originally was under the impression that our lab would be in person but I am not so sure now since you instructed us to log into [LMS]. Thank you for clearing up my confusion.
Sincerely,
slightly baffled
They were so polite & obviously planning ahead! But seemed confused that an in person class would still use a class website. I told them that yes the class is in person. Also, that I use the LMS to post important class information like the syllabus. Poor confused student. It's been a rough 20 months.
I have a student who interpreted "we will not meet tomorrow, because XYZ, so we will catch up on Friday in Lecture and Lab" as "we won't meet AT ALL until 'some unspecified even occurs and I send you a new announcement". He missed 5 classes in the meantime.
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 21, 2021, 01:20:00 PM
Quote from: mamselle on September 21, 2021, 01:06:26 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 21, 2021, 11:11:30 AM
10% of the class has some kind of disability accommodation - typically more time on exams, quiet testing place etc.
For some people, real life is going to be a serious kick in the balls.
No for real life, some peoples' contributions, which they would have been unable to make otherwise, in a few years, will be much appreciated.
M.
You and I live in different worlds with different expectations.
I teach in 2 health fields. The pace of practice is brutally quick. The environment can be chaotic. "I need more time and a quiet place to do my work" is NOT going to cut it when the patient is seizing or the phone is ringing off the hook with people wanting to know if they qualify for a 3rd covid shot or worried about the last disaster Dr Facebook warned them about. I bet your graduates actually have time to eat lunch and pee in their workplaces. Mine often don't.
OK, agreed, if it's a healthcare field, the need for slower pacing in the actual caregiving setting might not itself be possible (I've worked in two hospitals as a unit coordinator/EA). So I get that part.
But there are related, applied areas where the basic information may be used in other ways, too: research, publications, editing, transcription, etc.
I didn't know the level of expectation, so I can see why that might seem unrealistic.
But I was responding, perhaps more generally, to the idea that people who need and ask for accommodations are all slackers, gaming the system, etc.
Some may be. But I've also had serious students who worked hard within their own limitations, whose work was respectable and solid, and at times made contributions precisely because they "saw the world slant."
So, maybe not apropos here, and my apologies.
But overall, there are ways people use what we teach them in ways that differ from our expectations, so maybe an expansion of goals may be useful.
Or maybe not.
M.
Quote from: the_geneticist on September 21, 2021, 10:42:56 AM
Quote from: downer on September 21, 2021, 10:08:54 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on September 21, 2021, 09:45:10 AM
Downer, Stu does get extra time for timed tests and exams, but not for assignments that are open for an entire week.
Then it is something for the student to negotiate with your disability services office, not you.
Pretty sure any student that asks for "more time" on an untimed assignment that has been available for 5 days would be told "NO". Might be better to direct them to a time management or study skills class. You know, the whole "the due date is not the day you do it".
I wish! Unfortunately, one of our disability office's standard accommodations is to allow students 2 extra days when they have a flareup of a condition. I have no problem implementing that for major assignments like a term paper. However, some students think that if weekly homeworks are due for the rest of the class on Wednesdays, then their weekly homeworks can be due on Fridays all semester.
Quote from: Liquidambar on September 21, 2021, 07:57:38 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on September 21, 2021, 10:42:56 AM
Quote from: downer on September 21, 2021, 10:08:54 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on September 21, 2021, 09:45:10 AM
Downer, Stu does get extra time for timed tests and exams, but not for assignments that are open for an entire week.
Then it is something for the student to negotiate with your disability services office, not you.
Pretty sure any student that asks for "more time" on an untimed assignment that has been available for 5 days would be told "NO". Might be better to direct them to a time management or study skills class. You know, the whole "the due date is not the day you do it".
I wish! Unfortunately, one of our disability office's standard accommodations is to allow students 2 extra days when they have a flareup of a condition. I have no problem implementing that for major assignments like a term paper. However, some students think that if weekly homeworks are due for the rest of the class on Wednesdays, then their weekly homeworks can be due on Fridays all semester.
Seconding secundem_artem: how do these students manage to get extra time/days at work? For the most part, most of the students who need accommodations in my courses are quite responsible as they usually sit in front, take notes, ask questions before or after class, and come to office hours. Occasionally I get students majoring in social work, nursing, and/or education needing extra time and distraction-free environments, and wonder if these students expect similar accommodations at work.
Quote from: mamselle on September 21, 2021, 04:33:03 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 21, 2021, 01:20:00 PM
Quote from: mamselle on September 21, 2021, 01:06:26 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 21, 2021, 11:11:30 AM
10% of the class has some kind of disability accommodation - typically more time on exams, quiet testing place etc.
For some people, real life is going to be a serious kick in the balls.
No for real life, some peoples' contributions, which they would have been unable to make otherwise, in a few years, will be much appreciated.
M.
You and I live in different worlds with different expectations.
I teach in 2 health fields. The pace of practice is brutally quick. The environment can be chaotic. "I need more time and a quiet place to do my work" is NOT going to cut it when the patient is seizing or the phone is ringing off the hook with people wanting to know if they qualify for a 3rd covid shot or worried about the last disaster Dr Facebook warned them about. I bet your graduates actually have time to eat lunch and pee in their workplaces. Mine often don't.
OK, agreed, if it's a healthcare field, the need for slower pacing in the actual caregiving setting might not itself be possible (I've worked in two hospitals as a unit coordinator/EA). So I get that part.
But there are related, applied areas where the basic information may be used in other ways, too: research, publications, editing, transcription, etc.
I didn't know the level of expectation, so I can see why that might seem unrealistic.
But I was responding, perhaps more generally, to the idea that people who need and ask for accommodations are all slackers, gaming the system, etc.
Some may be. But I've also had serious students who worked hard within their own limitations, whose work was respectable and solid, and at times made contributions precisely because they "saw the world slant."
So, maybe not apropos here, and my apologies.
But overall, there are ways people use what we teach them in ways that differ from our expectations, so maybe an expansion of goals may be useful.
Or maybe not.
M.
I agree with mamselle here. And also, I'd like to point out that students are entitled to take a class and learn the material even if they never plan to use it in a workplace. There's nothing wrong with taking a class and learning something for the sake of learning.
Quote from: ergative on September 22, 2021, 05:19:44 AM
I agree with mamselle here. And also, I'd like to point out that students are entitled to take a class and learn the material even if they never plan to use it in a workplace. There's nothing wrong with taking a class and learning something for the sake of learning.
The issue that I see is raised by this:
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 21, 2021, 11:11:30 AM
10% of the class has some kind of disability accommodation - typically more time on exams, quiet testing place etc.
For some people, real life is going to be a serious kick in the balls.
I can't imagine the proportion of accommodations ever going
down. So what happens when more than 50% of the class have "accommodations"? Why wouldn't any parent try to get their kid "diagnosed" with some sort of condition to get them more time on tests, etc?
It's a "tragedy of the commons" issue; the more people use it, the less meaning and value it has.
Quote from: ergative on September 22, 2021, 05:19:44 AM
Quote from: mamselle on September 21, 2021, 04:33:03 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 21, 2021, 01:20:00 PM
Quote from: mamselle on September 21, 2021, 01:06:26 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 21, 2021, 11:11:30 AM
10% of the class has some kind of disability accommodation - typically more time on exams, quiet testing place etc.
For some people, real life is going to be a serious kick in the balls.
No for real life, some peoples' contributions, which they would have been unable to make otherwise, in a few years, will be much appreciated.
M.
You and I live in different worlds with different expectations.
I teach in 2 health fields. The pace of practice is brutally quick. The environment can be chaotic. "I need more time and a quiet place to do my work" is NOT going to cut it when the patient is seizing or the phone is ringing off the hook with people wanting to know if they qualify for a 3rd covid shot or worried about the last disaster Dr Facebook warned them about. I bet your graduates actually have time to eat lunch and pee in their workplaces. Mine often don't.
OK, agreed, if it's a healthcare field, the need for slower pacing in the actual caregiving setting might not itself be possible (I've worked in two hospitals as a unit coordinator/EA). So I get that part.
But there are related, applied areas where the basic information may be used in other ways, too: research, publications, editing, transcription, etc.
I didn't know the level of expectation, so I can see why that might seem unrealistic.
But I was responding, perhaps more generally, to the idea that people who need and ask for accommodations are all slackers, gaming the system, etc.
Some may be. But I've also had serious students who worked hard within their own limitations, whose work was respectable and solid, and at times made contributions precisely because they "saw the world slant."
So, maybe not apropos here, and my apologies.
But overall, there are ways people use what we teach them in ways that differ from our expectations, so maybe an expansion of goals may be useful.
Or maybe not.
M.
I agree with mamselle here. And also, I'd like to point out that students are entitled to take a class and learn the material even if they never plan to use it in a workplace. There's nothing wrong with taking a class and learning something for the sake of learning.
Well, yes...but today's students don't seem to take classes very much any more just for the sake of learning something. These students are likely angling for a career in these health fields, and are likely to find the difference between having their needs accommodated in class, yet not accommodated in the world of work, a severe shock.
This semester we had a student who interpreted the accommodation for extra time on tests to mean that they had extra time on every assignment. That was a fun email, we had to get the student accessibility services coordinator in on it before the student relented.
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on September 22, 2021, 07:04:16 AM
This semester we had a student who interpreted the accommodation for extra time on tests to mean that they had extra time on every assignment. That was a fun email, we had to get the student accessibility services coordinator in on it before the student relented.
On some level, I basically do grant students this accommodation, at least in the sense that if you want an extension on an assignment, and giving you that extension doesn't cause any problems for me, I'll give it. Of course, this doesn't work for assignments that will lose their purpose if they aren't completed on time, like reading responses due before class. It also doesn't work at the end of the semester when I need things done so I can grade them.
We have a student this semester who tried to use their extra time on test accommodation to get double time on all lab exercises. We think this is partly because this is the first semester in 18 months with in person labs again. All the students are moving more slowly and having issues getting things done in the allotted time. But no way are we turning a 4 hour weekly lab into an 8 hour weekly lab!
Quote from: Caracal on September 22, 2021, 07:16:56 AM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on September 22, 2021, 07:04:16 AM
This semester we had a student who interpreted the accommodation for extra time on tests to mean that they had extra time on every assignment. That was a fun email, we had to get the student accessibility services coordinator in on it before the student relented.
On some level, I basically do grant students this accommodation, at least in the sense that if you want an extension on an assignment, and giving you that extension doesn't cause any problems for me, I'll give it. Of course, this doesn't work for assignments that will lose their purpose if they aren't completed on time, like reading responses due before class. It also doesn't work at the end of the semester when I need things done so I can grade them.
I agree, in my courses this is my standard practice. In this case the student is a graphic design major and learning how to meet deadlines is pretty central to the learning outcomes of their courses.
Quote from: mythbuster on September 22, 2021, 07:28:23 AM
We have a student this semester who tried to use their extra time on test accommodation to get double time on all lab exercises. We think this is partly because this is the first semester in 18 months with in person labs again. All the students are moving more slowly and having issues getting things done in the allotted time. But no way are we turning a 4 hour weekly lab into an 8 hour weekly lab!
I'd say NO to being in lab longer - that is not reasonable. Just like you couldn't just make your discussion/lecture meeting twice as long to give one student more time to think/write/whatever. Logistically, I couldn't allow anyone to stay longer in labs since there is another class coming in. Plus, fire code capacity.
I'd be flexible with, say, giving them more time out of class to write up their report.
Stop emailing me and asking if you can setup a meeting with me.
READ.THE.SYLLABUS. It explains in detail how to do this.
Or, read the announcements, where I copied the Syllabus info for you.
Entirety of the email: "how did i get a [extremely low grade] on the last assignment? i did everything correctly"
Well, first, you did not even spell your own name correctly...
Can I get permission to bonk this student on the head with something?
QuoteI saw the announcement on [LMS] but I just want to double check to make sure I am correct, the [basketweaving lab] on thursday is not happening tomorrow, September 23? It is happening next week for the first time, on September 30 correct? Clarification on this would be greatly appreciated, thank you.
Really Nervous Student
Fantasy reply:
Dear Really Nervous Student,
Congratulations! You have broken the super-secret code. Yes, even though the announcement, syllabus, and a sign on the physical lab door all say "labs start the week of September 27-30 2021", your lab section is so super duper extra special that you have to meet tomorrow for the hidden bonus lab.
Calm down & trust the information you have.
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on September 22, 2021, 07:04:16 AM
This semester we had a student who interpreted the accommodation for extra time on tests to mean that they had extra time on every assignment. That was a fun email, we had to get the student accessibility services coordinator in on it before the student relented.
Yeah, I had one of those too.
For the autograded homework I really don't care, if you are behind at test time it's your funeral.
But for the hand-graded stuff where I post solution keys, NO, you do not get to turn in work after I post the key.
Quote from: the_geneticist on September 22, 2021, 01:39:14 PM
Can I get permission to bonk this student on the head with something?
QuoteI saw the announcement on [LMS] but I just want to double check to make sure I am correct, the [basketweaving lab] on thursday is not happening tomorrow, September 23? It is happening next week for the first time, on September 30 correct? Clarification on this would be greatly appreciated, thank you.
Really Nervous Student
Fantasy reply:
Dear Really Nervous Student,
Congratulations! You have broken the super-secret code. Yes, even though the announcement, syllabus, and a sign on the physical lab door all say "labs start the week of September 27-30 2021", your lab section is so super duper extra special that you have to meet tomorrow for the hidden bonus lab.
Calm down & trust the information you have.
Permission granted. I get so many of these "just double checking" emails and it drives me nuts too!
Not to make light of a student feeling poorly (I believe she's doing better today, fortunately!)
but:
"Hello Professor Mahagonny,
I woke up with a sore throat congestion and a headache. I'm not quite sure if it's covid or just a cold (although my roommate was having similar symptoms). Forgive me but I think it's in my best interest to stay back and rest. Thank you for understanding.
Sincerely,
[name]
Subject line: Exuded Abscesses
Quote from: mahagonny on September 23, 2021, 05:47:04 AM
Not to make light of a student feeling poorly (I believe she's doing better today, fortunately!)
but:
"Hello Professor Mahagonny,
I woke up with a sore throat congestion and a headache. I'm not quite sure if it's covid or just a cold (although my roommate was having similar symptoms). Forgive me but I think it's in my best interest to stay back and rest. Thank you for understanding.
Sincerely,
[name]
Subject line: Exuded Abscesses
Well...some students
do seem to exude absence, even when technically present.
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 21, 2021, 01:20:00 PM
Quote from: mamselle on September 21, 2021, 01:06:26 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 21, 2021, 11:11:30 AM
10% of the class has some kind of disability accommodation - typically more time on exams, quiet testing place etc.
For some people, real life is going to be a serious kick in the balls.
No for real life, some peoples' contributions, which they would have been unable to make otherwise, in a few years, will be much appreciated.
M.
You and I live in different worlds with different expectations.
I teach in 2 health fields. The pace of practice is brutally quick. The environment can be chaotic. "I need more time and a quiet place to do my work" is NOT going to cut it when the patient is seizing or the phone is ringing off the hook with people wanting to know if they qualify for a 3rd covid shot or worried about the last disaster Dr Facebook warned them about. I bet your graduates actually have time to eat lunch and pee in their workplaces. Mine often don't.
I also teach graduate medical professionals, and we have some students with accommodations every year. I wonder, with complete honesty and sadness, whether this is actually a good idea? If you have ADD and dyslexia, writing prescriptions and figuring out dosages in a fast-paced environment might be dangerous for your patients. You do not get a quiet space and time and a half to figure things out during a shift at the emergency room... I hesitate to say this, but maybe all careers are not for everyone? If you do not have natural 20/20 vision you cannot be a fighter pilot, for example. Many jobs will not hire you if you cannot remain on your feet for 8 hours, or cannot easily lift 50 pounds, etc., etc.
Isn't most prescription done over the computer these days?
One of the nurses on a floor I worked on had dyslexia. She was the most careful in figuring dosages (especially titrations, which are a bear), and had one of the highest medication accuracy ratings. She was also a calm, thoughtful person who took her work seriously and her colleagues and patients kindly.
N=1, of course, but it would have been a loss to patient care if she'd somehow been blocked from nursing because of her condition.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on September 23, 2021, 09:47:21 AM
One of the nurses on a floor I worked on had dyslexia. She was the most careful in figuring dosages (especially titrations, which are a bear), and had one of the highest medication accuracy ratings. She was also a calm, thoughtful person who took her work seriously and her colleagues and patients kindly.
N=1, of course, but it would have been a loss to patient care if she'd somehow been blocked from nursing because of her condition.
M.
I wonder whether her condition was serious enough that she needed accommodations for it in school, though? Having to mindfully work on correcting one's own shortcomings, rather than having them accommodated, is sometimes helpful in overcoming them. If they're not too severe, of course. If they are, then artem may be right that some people aren't cut out for some careers.
It's hard to make one-size-fits-all recommendations in situations like this. Obviously the nurse mamselle is talking about found the right support to get past her particular difficulty. But if somebody going out for a medical field can't thrive in class without the need for accommodations that are going to prove unfeasible in professional life, then that's not a good sign for that person's chances.
In our medically related program, we accomodate in the classroom but not in the clinical setting. So if the disability really prevented the student from being successful professionally, we would know. They need to pass the clinical portion of the program to graduate.
Quote from: PTonTT on September 23, 2021, 11:50:01 AM
In our medically related program, we accomodate in the classroom but not in the clinical setting. So if the disability really prevented the student from being successful professionally, we would know. They need to pass the clinical portion of the program to graduate.
That seems like the right distinction. Tests and exams are artificial by their nature. I'm never required to sit down, look at an essay question and write something in fifty minutes. Obviously, I have deadlines of various sorts, but none of them resemble an exam.
I'm sure there are lots of medical professionals with ADD who are quite successful. Just because someone takes longer to finish an exam doesn't mean they are going to struggle to deal with a fast paced and stressful job. In a lot of cases, it may be exactly the opposite. ADD is often really a problem with dopamine regulation. When someone is in a quiet room trying to do an exam, they have trouble focusing, their attention wanders and it can take them longer to do something. If you put that same person in an emergency room, the dopamine levels go up and they may be quite good at quickly responding to various situations as they come up.
I never got any accommodations in school, but I'm a slow writer. My essay exams were usually pretty short and I always took all the time I had and still struggled to finish. I still got good grades on exams and it wasn't really an issue, but it was definitely a symptom of having ADHD. Put me in front of a professional seminar or a classroom, however, and I don't have any problems thinking on my feet.
Not an email, but one of the responses to a reflection survey.
"I do not think you are judgmental at all!!!"
Quote from: mythbuster on September 22, 2021, 07:28:23 AM
We have a student this semester who tried to use their extra time on test accommodation to get double time on all lab exercises. We think this is partly because this is the first semester in 18 months with in person labs again. All the students are moving more slowly and having issues getting things done in the allotted time. But no way are we turning a 4 hour weekly lab into an 8 hour weekly lab!
The ADA mandates reasonable accommodations for disabilities. There's no requirement to provide unreasonable accommodations.
Student says they can't do the work this week because they are in military training. When asked to supply documentation they say it will be heavily redacted.
I smell a fish.
Let us know what the redacted documentation says. Be very careful about rejecting the accommodation unless you can prove it is bogus. It is probable what the student is referring to is something in his orders doc that cannot be seen by those without proper clearance. If that is the case, you would get burned badly, and properly, for rejecting it.
Quote from: Biologist_ on September 24, 2021, 11:45:54 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on September 22, 2021, 07:28:23 AM
We have a student this semester who tried to use their extra time on test accommodation to get double time on all lab exercises. We think this is partly because this is the first semester in 18 months with in person labs again. All the students are moving more slowly and having issues getting things done in the allotted time. But no way are we turning a 4 hour weekly lab into an 8 hour weekly lab!
The ADA mandates reasonable accommodations for disabilities. There's no requirement to provide unreasonable accommodations.
Our uni is trying to lay the groundwork, COVID or no COVID, that hy-flex for each student is "reasonable."
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 24, 2021, 11:50:05 PM
Let us know what the redacted documentation says. Be very careful about rejecting the accommodation unless you can prove it is bogus. It is probable what the student is referring to is something in his orders doc that cannot be seen by those without proper clearance. If that is the case, you would get burned badly, and properly, for rejecting it.
I'm not sure what risk I might be running. If the armed services can't make a declaration that the student was unable to do the work during the specified time, that's the student's problem. I don't see any reason why I should treat this case as different from busy nurses, or busy people with other jobs. The onus is on the student to supply evidence for their excuse. I've never received notification from anyone official at any school saying that I have to accept excuses. It is at my discretion.
If the young man is indeed a military reservist, and has been summoned to duty, you almost certainly have an obligation to let him defer work, etc., though this might not be the absolute requirement employers have wrt employees who are reservists. But even if you do not have such an obligation, you would look very very bad to refuse it.
Maybe I do have a legal obligation: in which case I'm sure there is a simple procedure for reservists to show their professors they were unable to do classwork, which does not involve producing redacted documents. I've taught serving military before, and they never needed to make excuses.
Quote from: downer on September 24, 2021, 05:17:24 PM
Student says they can't do the work this week because they are in military training. When asked to supply documentation they say it will be heavily redacted.
I smell a fish.
I once had a student who was in the Army Reserves (I don't recall the exact name) inform me that Stu wouldn't be attending class that week because of the training, but this was a responsible student. As I recall, Stu didn't ask to be excused from any of the assignments but merely informed me that hu wouldn't be in class.
I am getting emails from students while they are taking their open note "did you read the syllabus" quiz begging me to tell them the answers before the time runs out.
Sorry, I'm not a chat bot!
Also, maybe you should try reading the syllabus BEFORE you open the quiz.
Quote from: downer on September 26, 2021, 04:26:20 AM
Maybe I do have a legal obligation: in which case I'm sure there is a simple procedure for reservists to show their professors they were unable to do classwork, which does not involve producing redacted documents. I've taught serving military before, and they never needed to make excuses.
Since you know what it's supposed to look like in cases like this, I suspect your fish detector may be right.
Quote from: apl68 on September 29, 2021, 09:59:02 AM
Quote from: downer on September 26, 2021, 04:26:20 AM
Maybe I do have a legal obligation: in which case I'm sure there is a simple procedure for reservists to show their professors they were unable to do classwork, which does not involve producing redacted documents. I've taught serving military before, and they never needed to make excuses.
Since you know what it's supposed to look like in cases like this, I suspect your fish detector may be right.
Yeah, I often have students in the reserves and they just send me a letter saying they have required training on x dates. There's no other information in there, so I can't see why anything would need to be redacted. It's just a standard form sent to employers, instructors and anyone else.
After doing poorly on an open-note, open-book exam, a student writes to ask if it will be curved.
Um, no? I made several announcements stating that this exam would require application of concepts taught during the semester and that it would be beneficial to study in advance, even though we allow access to resources during the exam itself. I will curve an exam if it is unfair, but not if poor scores are due to students choosing not to study.
The email requesting that we curve the scores on this exam was slightly less perturbing than the student who wrote to ask if we really expected him/her to learn everything taught in the prior 5 weeks of the course for the midterm exam. Um, yes? It is open-note, open-book, etc, but it is helpful to know what those notes and books might contain...
I know that this is the lowest priority course for most students (online and GenEd), but they do need to make some effort to master the material. Really, it is not that hard.
Student sends indignant email complaining about my flagging them several time on the alert system indicating students in trouble.
I wonder if they think that these emails are raising their chances of passing the course. Because they are not.
Just got this doozy from an international student taking my online lab course. Based on some past issues with our international student office, I suspect this student was misled about the class and their ability to succeed in it based on their current proficiency with English.
Quotehi professor
i received email from general biology they gave a link websit will join in there about module 1 lesoon could you please guide me what should i do in there ?an we should do have activity? if it possible for you please help me
I do not think it is possible for me to help, as the email they got was my daily reminder sent via our LMS about what they should be working on that day to help them stay on track. In other words to guide them on what they should do.
Quote from: downer on October 04, 2021, 10:55:21 AM
Student sends indignant email complaining about my flagging them several time on the alert system indicating students in trouble.
I wonder if they think that these emails are raising their chances of passing the course. Because they are not.
Every year, our admin-wonks deliver a monologue speech about the importance of using "early-alert" systems to flag poorly performing students.
And every year, a few (new) professors listen to that advice, submit the reports, and are then immediately berated by the academic advising department to "stop doing that" because our university does not actually have any process in place to address students who are reported. So all of the professors learn to stop using the early alert service.
And then the next year, the admin-wonks deliver a new monologue speech about the importance of the "early alert" system. I'm pretty sure that the admin-wonks are living in a bubble separated from reality.
Quote from: Aster on October 05, 2021, 09:04:11 AM
Quote from: downer on October 04, 2021, 10:55:21 AM
Student sends indignant email complaining about my flagging them several time on the alert system indicating students in trouble.
I wonder if they think that these emails are raising their chances of passing the course. Because they are not.
Every year, our admin-wonks deliver a monologue speech about the importance of using "early-alert" systems to flag poorly performing students.
And every year, a few (new) professors listen to that advice, submit the reports, and are then immediately berated by the academic advising department to "stop doing that" because our university does not actually have any process in place to address students who are reported. So all of the professors learn to stop using the early alert service.
And then the next year, the admin-wonks deliver a new monologue speech about the importance of the "early alert" system. I'm pretty sure that the admin-wonks are living in a bubble separated from reality.
Or at least they're separated from each other.
Quote from: Istiblennius on October 05, 2021, 08:54:24 AM
Just got this doozy from an international student taking my online lab course. Based on some past issues with our international student office, I suspect this student was misled about the class and their ability to succeed in it based on their current proficiency with English.
Quotehi professor
i received email from general biology they gave a link websit will join in there about module 1 lesoon could you please guide me what should i do in there ?an we should do have activity? if it possible for you please help me
I do not think it is possible for me to help, as the email they got was my daily reminder sent via our LMS about what they should be working on that day to help them stay on track. In other words to guide them on what they should do.
I see my student is also enrolled in your class.
It took us several hours of videoconferencing on multiple devices to get them enrolled in the online homework system.
Ok, call me a bit skeptical, but I've had 2 students email to beg/ask if they can take their lab class on Zoom due to an ill grandfather in another country. And 1 grandmother.
Yes, I know it's a pandemic, but the emails are all very similar.
Labs are only in person. If they are in this lab, then they are in at least 2 other in person classes.
Anyone else getting this flavor of request?
I tell the students I'm sorry to hear their relative is sick, please contact their academic advisor for advice about their options for Fall.
Quote from: Caracal on September 23, 2021, 01:18:23 PM
Quote from: PTonTT on September 23, 2021, 11:50:01 AM
In our medically related program, we accomodate in the classroom but not in the clinical setting. So if the disability really prevented the student from being successful professionally, we would know. They need to pass the clinical portion of the program to graduate.
That seems like the right distinction. Tests and exams are artificial by their nature. I'm never required to sit down, look at an essay question and write something in fifty minutes. Obviously, I have deadlines of various sorts, but none of them resemble an exam.
I'm sure there are lots of medical professionals with ADD who are quite successful. Just because someone takes longer to finish an exam doesn't mean they are going to struggle to deal with a fast paced and stressful job. In a lot of cases, it may be exactly the opposite. ADD is often really a problem with dopamine regulation. When someone is in a quiet room trying to do an exam, they have trouble focusing, their attention wanders and it can take them longer to do something. If you put that same person in an emergency room, the dopamine levels go up and they may be quite good at quickly responding to various situations as they come up.
I never got any accommodations in school, but I'm a slow writer. My essay exams were usually pretty short and I always took all the time I had and still struggled to finish. I still got good grades on exams and it wasn't really an issue, but it was definitely a symptom of having ADHD. Put me in front of a professional seminar or a classroom, however, and I don't have any problems thinking on my feet.
Also, a student needing accommodations now won't necessarily need them for rest of their working lives. Some are due to current illness or injury (e.g. recovering from a concussion).
And some people are newly diagnosed and at the early stages of learning to manage/compensate for a disability or chronic illness. The accommodations may only be needed during the time they are getting treatment sorted and learning coping strategies and workarounds.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 05, 2021, 06:14:39 PM
Ok, call me a bit skeptical, but I've had 2 students email to beg/ask if they can take their lab class on Zoom due to an ill grandfather in another country. And 1 grandmother.
Yes, I know it's a pandemic, but the emails are all very similar.
Labs are only in person. If they are in this lab, then they are in at least 2 other in person classes.
Anyone else getting this flavor of request?
I tell the students I'm sorry to hear their relative is sick, please contact their academic advisor for advice about their options for Fall.
Ah, it's Fall midterm time. The days get cooler, the leaves start to turn, grandparents start dropping like flies, and (at least for me and several colleagues) the a--holes are in full bloom.
(A colleague's Chair got a snotty email from a non-attending student in Colleague's class, raising all sorts of hell and calling for Colleague's head on a platter. Chair forwarded to Colleague, with a note of support, and told student to contact Colleague directly. Chair also then forwarded another from student, in which s/he insisted that Chair NOT let Colleague know s/he had run to the Chair to complain. Oops.)
Oops indeed. Stu apparently thought that Chair was Stu's BFF.
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 09, 2021, 03:23:18 PM
Oops indeed. Stu apparently thought that Chair was Stu's BFF.
Or Customer Service representative...
M.
I got one of those e-mails from my chair last week. In our case, though, chair did not ask Stu to contact me, and pretty much told Stu to go fly a kite.
Quote
As I do know that I am able to fix my papers and re-submit them anytime during the semester, I personally feel as if I am writing how things should be and my grade isn't reflecting. I wanted to ask if there was a specific time you would like assignments to be fixed and re-submitted?
Oh geeze...
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 14, 2021, 03:02:49 PM
Quote
As I do know that I am able to fix my papers and re-submit them anytime during the semester, I personally feel as if I am writing how things should be and my grade isn't reflecting. I wanted to ask if there was a specific time you would like assignments to be fixed and re-submitted?
Oh geeze...
Any idea where Stu got that idea of resubmission ANYTIME during the semester? Maybe some other course, or just some sort of campus urban myth?
Or just epic entitlement.
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 15, 2021, 04:21:16 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 14, 2021, 03:02:49 PM
Quote
As I do know that I am able to fix my papers and re-submit them anytime during the semester, I personally feel as if I am writing how things should be and my grade isn't reflecting. I wanted to ask if there was a specific time you would like assignments to be fixed and re-submitted?
Oh geeze...
Any idea where Stu got that idea of resubmission ANYTIME during the semester? Maybe some other course, or just some sort of campus urban myth?
Or just epic entitlement.
It's the "I'm the customer, so defer to my requests however unreasonable" way of thinking.
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 15, 2021, 12:33:16 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 15, 2021, 04:21:16 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 14, 2021, 03:02:49 PM
Quote
As I do know that I am able to fix my papers and re-submit them anytime during the semester, I personally feel as if I am writing how things should be and my grade isn't reflecting. I wanted to ask if there was a specific time you would like assignments to be fixed and re-submitted?
Oh geeze...
Any idea where Stu got that idea of resubmission ANYTIME during the semester? Maybe some other course, or just some sort of campus urban myth?
Or just epic entitlement.
It's the "I'm the customer, so defer to my requests however unreasonable" way of thinking.
What really got me was the assertion that hu's writing was done correctly while typing out word salad.
However, this student actually replied pleasantly and respectfully when I gently laid down the law.
Hi Mahagonny
I missed a couple of classes last month because I got sick a bunch of times. I missed today because I slept in. I feel like I'm still following and I am practicing but I am still going to get a tutor just in case.
I was concerned about our assignments. Most days the homework is different exercises or practices in the workbook. Then there are the in-class quizzes. I believe I have been keeping up with that. Have there been other assignments? Some of my friends have take-home quizzes and dictations due for their classes and I haven't handed anything in other than sometimes what we do in class. So I wanted to make sure I am not missing anything. Have we had any assignments that needed to be handed in? Am I missing any assignments or quizzes in the gradebook?
Thank you,
Ms. Student
My response:
Dear Ms. Student,
Would you like me to text you when I am leaving for work at 6:45-7:00 am? Eight o'clock does come early, but it's what we're doing.
Sincerely,
Prof M
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 05, 2021, 06:14:39 PM
Ok, call me a bit skeptical, but I've had 2 students email to beg/ask if they can take their lab class on Zoom due to an ill grandfather in another country. And 1 grandmother.
Hmmmmmmm . . . yes . . . it appears all the aunts in Alabama and all the uncles in North Carolina have died if they are related to any student attending my school. No vaccine for that $hit.
I like the relative-in-another-country approach. Harder to verify and all that. I think students have learned we can easily check online to see who has died--or not.
Quote from: fishbrains on October 16, 2021, 09:33:06 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 05, 2021, 06:14:39 PM
Ok, call me a bit skeptical, but I've had 2 students email to beg/ask if they can take their lab class on Zoom due to an ill grandfather in another country. And 1 grandmother.
Hmmmmmmm . . . yes . . . it appears all the aunts in Alabama and all the uncles in North Carolina have died if they are related to any student attending my school. No vaccine for that $hit.
I like the relative-in-another-country approach. Harder to verify and all that. I think students have learned we can easily check online to see who has died--or not.
I contacted their academic advisors. The student who was going to miss "at least two weeks" of class let me know they had "misread their calendar" and would only be gone one week.
I'm stepping out of this, but I know that student conduct, counseling, advising, etc will land on stu like a ton of bricks.
I have no idea what the student means by passing out.
Quote
I passed out last night before I could submit my essay revision. I have attached it to this email for you and I promise this will never happen again .
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 17, 2021, 09:34:04 AM
I have no idea what the student means by passing out.
Quote
I passed out last night before I could submit my essay revision. I have attached it to this email for you and I promise this will never happen again .
I think they mean "fell asleep from exhaustion" rather than "I fainted" or "I was really, really drunk"
Time to say "please see the syllabus the policy on late work"
Stu Dent: "Professor, I haven't been doing well on my work this semester. I am really passionate about my courses. Is there a way that I review the work I've turned in?"
Me: "Yes. We review past work every week during class."
This kid hasn't been to class in weeks. Ugh, and I see I have another "I'm passionate" statement. I could probably publish a report that directly correlates most student emails with the word "passionate" in them to students who are failing the class. I almost always see "I'm passionate" after somebody flunks an exam, is in danger of flunking the course, hasn't submitted homework, hasn't read the syllabus, etc...
I don't think that "passionate" means what you think it means.
Quote from: Aster on October 29, 2021, 02:20:52 AM
Stu Dent: "Professor, I haven't been doing well on my work this semester. I am really passionate about my courses. Is there a way that I review the work I've turned in?"
Me: "Yes. We review past work every week during class."
This kid hasn't been to class in weeks. Ugh, and I see I have another "I'm passionate" statement. I could probably publish a report that directly correlates most student emails with the word "passionate" in them to students who are failing the class. I almost always see "I'm passionate" after somebody flunks an exam, is in danger of flunking the course, hasn't submitted homework, hasn't read the syllabus, etc...
I don't think that "passionate" means what you think it means.
Like how used car salesmen use "honest", as in "Honest John's Used Cars!!!!"
(Grades changed for anonymity, but the logic of the exchange is preserved.)
First assessment is returned. It's a dinky 10% warm-up assignment. Note that in my system there are FIVE levels of A grade, but only three levels of the lower bands. Yes, I hate it. Moving on.
QuoteThank you for your comments, I will try and amend my work for next time. I am just a bit curious with my grade as I received a B+ which of course is still good but with my desire to achieve an honours degree I'm really trying to get the very best I can. With the point scale I can assume that an A+ is a flawless piece of work and since you made four comments I thought this would result in a [lower A-], not a B+? Again, I'm really just trying to figure out how to get the best mark possible and if I were to make the changes you suggest if this would have given me an A+ instead.
I thought about explaining everything wrong with his assumption about how 1 comment = 1 grade-point deduction, and everything wrong with his assumption that I start at higher A+ and deduce from there. Then I decided it wasn't worth my time and blandly referred him to the generic descriptors for each grade band that go along with his degree program.
Argh.
Just got one from a student freaked out that she would get a day late penalty because her assignment was submitted 4 seconds late. Seconds, not minutes. Have I mentioned that our students tend to be a bit on the neurotic side?
Quote from: Puget on November 04, 2021, 01:20:46 PM
Just got one from a student freaked out that she would get a day late penalty because her assignment was submitted 4 seconds late. Seconds, not minutes. Have I mentioned that our students tend to be a bit on the neurotic side?
Depending on your LMS, it might be marked as late if it's timestamped as the exact due date & time.
I usually remove the penalty ONCE and remind the student to plan to finish earlier next time, especially if they need to upload something.
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 04, 2021, 04:01:48 PM
Quote from: Puget on November 04, 2021, 01:20:46 PM
Just got one from a student freaked out that she would get a day late penalty because her assignment was submitted 4 seconds late. Seconds, not minutes. Have I mentioned that our students tend to be a bit on the neurotic side?
Depending on your LMS, it might be marked as late if it's timestamped as the exact due date & time.
I usually remove the penalty ONCE and remind the student to plan to finish earlier next time, especially if they need to upload something.
Yes, our system is pretty draconian too, and that would count as late.
Stu Dent: "Professor, I flew across the country and forgot to pack my textbook. Can you send me the electronic copies of the chapter assignments due this week?"
Me: "There are not any electronic copies of your textbook."
Quote from: ergative on November 05, 2021, 08:58:56 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 04, 2021, 04:01:48 PM
Quote from: Puget on November 04, 2021, 01:20:46 PM
Just got one from a student freaked out that she would get a day late penalty because her assignment was submitted 4 seconds late. Seconds, not minutes. Have I mentioned that our students tend to be a bit on the neurotic side?
Depending on your LMS, it might be marked as late if it's timestamped as the exact due date & time.
I usually remove the penalty ONCE and remind the student to plan to finish earlier next time, especially if they need to upload something.
Yes, our system is pretty draconian too, and that would count as late.
Ours does tell them how late it is, but there is no automatic penalty setting, we have to hand-enter those, and I can't imagine anyone would impose a late penalty without at least a few minutes of grace time, but maybe the student didn't know that. At any rate I reassured her.
Student is "truly disturbed and devastated" that they were withdrawn from an online class that they last accessed at the end of September. They are now just sending the email despite having been withdrawn for a full month. Student thought that since they told the instructor that they were busy that meant they didn't have to respond to multiple emails warning them about lack of participation. Being withdrawn from the class will be "detrimental to my future career in nursing".
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on November 05, 2021, 10:28:03 AM
Being withdrawn from the class will be "detrimental to my future career in nursing".
And perhaps that's just as well for all concerned....
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on November 05, 2021, 10:28:03 AM
Student is "truly disturbed and devastated" that they were withdrawn from an online class that they last accessed at the end of September. They are now just sending the email despite having been withdrawn for a full month. Student thought that since they told the instructor that they were busy that meant they didn't have to respond to multiple emails warning them about lack of participation. Being withdrawn from the class will be "detrimental to my future career in nursing".
Did they also throw in a "
passionate" somewhere?
Quote from: Aster on November 05, 2021, 12:34:50 PM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on November 05, 2021, 10:28:03 AM
Student is "truly disturbed and devastated" that they were withdrawn from an online class that they last accessed at the end of September. They are now just sending the email despite having been withdrawn for a full month. Student thought that since they told the instructor that they were busy that meant they didn't have to respond to multiple emails warning them about lack of participation. Being withdrawn from the class will be "detrimental to my future career in nursing".
Did they also throw in a "passionate" somewhere?
Here it is always "surprised and confused", as in "I was surprised and confused by my exam grade". These phrases must get transmitted through the campus culture somehow.
Quote from: Puget on November 05, 2021, 05:30:25 PM
Quote from: Aster on November 05, 2021, 12:34:50 PM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on November 05, 2021, 10:28:03 AM
Student is "truly disturbed and devastated" that they were withdrawn from an online class that they last accessed at the end of September. They are now just sending the email despite having been withdrawn for a full month. Student thought that since they told the instructor that they were busy that meant they didn't have to respond to multiple emails warning them about lack of participation. Being withdrawn from the class will be "detrimental to my future career in nursing".
Did they also throw in a "passionate" somewhere?
Here it is always "surprised and confused", as in "I was surprised and confused by my exam grade". These phrases must get transmitted through the campus culture somehow.
We have "sorry for any inconvenience" and the recently added "passionate" and "dedicated".
I am encouraged that the students are spelling the words correctly. However, most of their emails just need a "see the syllabus for the policy on late work" reply. I am not at all inconvenienced and they can demonstrate their passion and dedication to Intro to Baskets 101 by turning things in on time. Welcome to college, it only gets harder from here!
Quote from: Puget on November 05, 2021, 05:30:25 PM
Quote from: Aster on November 05, 2021, 12:34:50 PM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on November 05, 2021, 10:28:03 AM
Student is "truly disturbed and devastated" that they were withdrawn from an online class that they last accessed at the end of September. They are now just sending the email despite having been withdrawn for a full month. Student thought that since they told the instructor that they were busy that meant they didn't have to respond to multiple emails warning them about lack of participation. Being withdrawn from the class will be "detrimental to my future career in nursing".
Did they also throw in a "passionate" somewhere?
Here it is always "surprised and confused", as in "I was surprised and confused by my exam grade". These phrases must get transmitted through the campus culture somehow.
I'd guess that since they've grown up in a very polarized culture, they have little idea of how to deal with disagreement. The normal idea is that someone who disagrees is evil, so outrage is the "correct" response. They can't really acknowledge that the instructor may actually be right, so the best sort of response they can come up with is the idea that the instructor is somehow
misinformed, and when s/he gets the facts right s/he will see everything correctly, i.e. as the student sees it.
"Tell me how I can improve" is very foreign, since it implies the speaker acknowledges that
more information may be needed for the
speaker to have a better understanding. Twitter is the template for responses to any situation; immediate, emotional, and blunt.
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 06, 2021, 08:04:34 AM
Quote from: Puget on November 05, 2021, 05:30:25 PM
Quote from: Aster on November 05, 2021, 12:34:50 PM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on November 05, 2021, 10:28:03 AM
Student is "truly disturbed and devastated" that they were withdrawn from an online class that they last accessed at the end of September. They are now just sending the email despite having been withdrawn for a full month. Student thought that since they told the instructor that they were busy that meant they didn't have to respond to multiple emails warning them about lack of participation. Being withdrawn from the class will be "detrimental to my future career in nursing".
Did they also throw in a "passionate" somewhere?
Here it is always "surprised and confused", as in "I was surprised and confused by my exam grade". These phrases must get transmitted through the campus culture somehow.
We have "sorry for any inconvenience" and the recently added "passionate" and "dedicated".
I am encouraged that the students are spelling the words correctly. However, most of their emails just need a "see the syllabus for the policy on late work" reply. I am not at all inconvenienced and they can demonstrate their passion and dedication to Intro to Baskets 101 by turning things in on time. Welcome to college, it only gets harder from here!
Student continues to demand that we let them back in the course. The instructor gave them a deadline to complete an assignment to remain active, the student completed the assignment two days later than the deadline. Student now argues that they completed the assignment on time despite the LMS recording the date. Student swears that mother watched them complete the assignment on time and that she can testify on student's behalf.
I don't know what it's like for anyone else but I can't think of a single time my mother, or any other family member, watched me take a quiz...
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 06, 2021, 09:04:45 AM
Quote from: Puget on November 05, 2021, 05:30:25 PM
Quote from: Aster on November 05, 2021, 12:34:50 PM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on November 05, 2021, 10:28:03 AM
Student is "truly disturbed and devastated" that they were withdrawn from an online class that they last accessed at the end of September. They are now just sending the email despite having been withdrawn for a full month. Student thought that since they told the instructor that they were busy that meant they didn't have to respond to multiple emails warning them about lack of participation. Being withdrawn from the class will be "detrimental to my future career in nursing".
Did they also throw in a "passionate" somewhere?
Here it is always "surprised and confused", as in "I was surprised and confused by my exam grade". These phrases must get transmitted through the campus culture somehow.
I'd guess that since they've grown up in a very polarized culture, they have little idea of how to deal with disagreement. The normal idea is that someone who disagrees is evil, so outrage is the "correct" response. They can't really acknowledge that the instructor may actually be right, so the best sort of response they can come up with is the idea that the instructor is somehow misinformed, and when s/he gets the facts right s/he will see everything correctly, i.e. as the student sees it.
"Tell me how I can improve" is very foreign, since it implies the speaker acknowledges that more information may be needed for the speaker to have a better understanding. Twitter is the template for responses to any situation; immediate, emotional, and blunt.
There's nothing new about this strategy at all. It is a time tested way of dealing with situations where someone else can determine what happens. Seriously, this is what people in the American colonies did when asking the British government to reconsider some ruling or rule they had made. If the official who made the original decision was still in charge, you weren't likely to get far by telling them they screwed up. That risks being seen as a challenge to their authority. If the person made the wrong decision, that implies that perhaps they shouldn't be in charge at all. Instead, you make it about the bad information they received. After all, if someone has the wrong information, how can they make the right decision. The advantage of this angle is that it potentially gives the decision maker an out if he does want to change his mind.
And expressions of distress about the decision were also common. The idea was that you are a loyal subject of the crown, so its such a bummer to see this decision that is going to cause all kinds of bad results obviously based on bad information this person has a gotten through no fault of their own. Students are doing the same thing. They want to tell you that they are dedicated and diligent students. That's why this has come as such a blow.
It isn't about the polarized culture, they are just dealing with power gaps in the sort of ways that people generally do. It is annoying, but being in charge of things is always annoying.
Quote from: Caracal on November 09, 2021, 06:50:23 AM
It isn't about the polarized culture, they are just dealing with power gaps in the sort of ways that people generally do. It is annoying, but being in charge of things is always annoying.
What's new is the
number of students who feel
entitled to challenge their grades. Their parents would have been much less likely to do it, and much less likely to have it succeed if they did, but unfortunately raised their kids to feel that their own feelings should matter as much or more than the expertise of skilled professionals.
(As a parent with 3 grown children, I never once argued with any instructor about any of their grades. And I sure as heck wouldn't on the basis of how they "felt" about them.)
I just had the dispiriting experience of hearing a friend (who I thought would have known better) saying that she and her husband had intervened in the grading of a son's AP essay so he could get into the STEM/R1 of his/(?their) choice.
They felt as if the instructor just never gave above a 90, needed for passing, and needed to be goosed to do so.
I thought someone lost a learning opportunity, but wasn't in a position at the time to argue the matter (will have to take it up with them privately at some point, although the kid is nearly graduated from the school (he did get in and did well) so...sigh.
Tarnished their light a little bit for me, it did.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on November 09, 2021, 08:12:07 AM
I just had the dispiriting experience of hearing a friend (who I thought would have known better) saying that she and her husband had intervened in the grading of a son's AP essay so he could get into the STEM/R1 of his/(?their) choice.
They felt as if the instructor just never gave above a 90, needed for passing, and needed to be goosed to do so.
I thought someone lost a learning opportunity, but wasn't in a position at the time to argue the matter (will have to take it up with them privately at some point, although the kid is nearly graduated from the school (he did get in and did well) so...sigh.
Tarnished their light a little bit for me, it did.
M.
And see, this puts other students, who don't have such squeaky-wheel parents, at a disadvantage when it comes to getting into scarce elite-program slots.
Quote from: mamselle on November 09, 2021, 08:12:07 AM
I just had the dispiriting experience of hearing a friend (who I thought would have known better) saying that she and her husband had intervened in the grading of a son's AP essay so he could get into the STEM/R1 of his/(?their) choice.
They felt as if the instructor just never gave above a 90, needed for passing, and needed to be goosed to do so.
I am wondering how any student or parent would know (or have access to know) who the graders are for specific AP examinations. I thought that those were confidential.
No, this was the HS teacher grading their regular homework, apparently.
Something about they had to pass a certain level in their school work to be able to take the final AP exam, or something like that.
Still, yes, at least the final grading is supposed to be anonymized and rigorous, and impermeable to helicopter-y progenitors.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on November 09, 2021, 11:27:51 AM
No, this was the HS teacher grading their regular homework, apparently.
Something about they had to pass a certain level in their school work to be able to take the final AP exam, or something like that.
Still, yes, at least the final grading is supposed to be anonymized and rigorous, and impermeable to helicopter-y progenitors.
M.
I can tell you that the AP folks would be happy to take the parent's money and let the student sit for the exam, regardless of his grade in his high school class. The parents could probably arrange for a proctored AP exam at a testing center, and cut the high school out of the loop.
Quote from: mamselle on November 09, 2021, 08:12:07 AM
I just had the dispiriting experience of hearing a friend (who I thought would have known better) saying that she and her husband had intervened in the grading of a son's AP essay so he could get into the STEM/R1 of his/(?their) choice.
They felt as if the instructor just never gave above a 90, needed for passing, and needed to be goosed to do so.
I thought someone lost a learning opportunity, but wasn't in a position at the time to argue the matter (will have to take it up with them privately at some point, although the kid is nearly graduated from the school (he did get in and did well) so...sigh.
Tarnished their light a little bit for me, it did.
M.
I've had students who have been similarly bothered that it was possible for the highest grade on an exam to be a 93. I tried to explain to them that my courses were designed so that the exams were the hardest part and students who averaged a 88 on exams would usually get an A assuming they came to class and did their assignments, but they didn't really get it.
My favorite student email is the one they send in the LMS and not in my overloaded campus email. Thanks for your company as I copy-paste my way through the replies.
Quote from: mamselle on November 09, 2021, 11:27:51 AM
No, this was the HS teacher grading their regular homework, apparently.
Something about they had to pass a certain level in their school work to be able to take the final AP exam, or something like that.
Still, yes, at least the final grading is supposed to be anonymized and rigorous, and impermeable to helicopter-y progenitors.
M.
Ah--that changes things, I think. I don't think AP exam opportunities should be withheld this way. A student should not be denied the opportunity to take an exam that can open doors for their future, even if the teacher thinks that they're not prepared.
Stu Dent: Can I have an extension on [major project]? I am travelling home the day before it is due. It would be great if I could have an extra day to work on it.
Me: You have known the due date for this project since the dawn of time (sorry, I meant to say: since the beginning of the semester) and you had scaffolding assignments that included creating a timeline to ensure the work would be spread throughout the semester. So no, you cannot have an extension because you have decided to start T-day break more than a week before T-day.
Quote from: arcturus on November 10, 2021, 11:36:41 AM
Stu Dent: Can I have an extension on [major project]? I am travelling home the day before it is due. It would be great if I could have an extra day to work on it.
Me: You have known the due date for this project since the dawn of time (sorry, I meant to say: since the beginning of the semester) and you had scaffolding assignments that included creating a timeline to ensure the work would be spread throughout the semester. So no, you cannot have an extension because you have decided to start T-day break more than a week before T-day.
I mention weekly in writing and in class to my students that they should try turning assignments in before the deadline, especially if they did them in advance. I have heard people tell me they completed the assignments but just forgot to submit them before the deadline. I have closure issues personally so I would be anxious until something is submitted before a deadline - I get that way with manuscripts.
"I just gave you a positive review on Rate My Professor? Do you think that it is possible that I get extra credit?"
Quote from: RatGuy on November 12, 2021, 12:07:11 PM
"I just gave you a positive review on Rate My Professor? Do you think that it is possible that I get extra credit?"
It depends. Does RMP allow you to go back and change that review if you felt like doing so?
Seriously, that's a silly quid-pro-quo suggestion.
Quote from: RatGuy on November 12, 2021, 12:07:11 PM
"I just gave you a positive review on Rate My Professor? Do you think that it is possible that I get extra credit?"
"The syllabus clearly states 'cash payments only'."
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 12, 2021, 06:14:07 PM
Quote from: RatGuy on November 12, 2021, 12:07:11 PM
"I just gave you a positive review on Rate My Professor? Do you think that it is possible that I get extra credit?"
"The syllabus clearly states 'cash payments only'."
Now that would clear things up. If only students read the syllabus in the first place!
Many years ago, one of my colleagues was offered salmon.
Quote from: Morden on November 13, 2021, 09:46:29 AM
Many years ago, one of my colleagues was offered salmon.
Fresh-smoked? Or just store-bought?
M.
Quote from: Morden on November 13, 2021, 09:46:29 AM
Many years ago, one of my colleagues was offered salmon.
Like wild caught Copper River salmon? That might be hard to turn down! Farm raised would be less of a struggle...
edit on posting — mamselle and I are clearly channeling a single brain on this one...
Yep.
A friend went on a fishing trip once and was able to have the salmon they caught smoked and sent to them a week or so later.
Yuummmmmm......
M.
The students have a midterm exam next week. Got this one one late last night.
Quote
Hi Dr. [Geneticist],
I hope this email finds you well! Unfortunately, the past two weeks have been incredibly rough for me.
[4 paragraphs about illness, symptoms, severity, doctor's appointments, etc.]
I am feeling much better, but I am feeling very anxious about taking an exam. Can I be excused from the Midterm? If there are any options at all, I would sincerely appreciate it. I always prioritize my academics and I am a very diligent and responsible student, I even earned a 4.00 last year, so I promise this is not me slacking off in the slightest.
So sorry,
Sick Student
I can excuse you from your missed assignments, but you are NOT excused from learning the material. That's why I post all of the videos, slides, worksheets, etc.
Quote
Dear Sick Student,
I'm sorry to hear that you have been sick. No, you are not excused from the Midterm exam. All of the course materials and a study guide are posted on your [LMS] site. I would encourage you to go to office hours with your TA or with me.
Also, I know this is not your only class. Your Academic Advisor can assist you with options such as taking a medical leave if needed.
Best,
[Dr. Geneticist]
Quote from: ergative on November 10, 2021, 01:11:18 AM
Ah--that changes things, I think. I don't think AP exam opportunities should be withheld this way. A student should not be denied the opportunity to take an exam that can open doors for their future, even if the teacher thinks that they're not prepared.
Depends on if the school wants a high number of students with 4s or 5s....95% of students taking the AP XYZ test got 4 or above! Because you filtered out the ones who would not score high
Quote from: bopper on November 15, 2021, 11:16:44 AM
Quote from: ergative on November 10, 2021, 01:11:18 AM
Ah--that changes things, I think. I don't think AP exam opportunities should be withheld this way. A student should not be denied the opportunity to take an exam that can open doors for their future, even if the teacher thinks that they're not prepared.
Depends on if the school wants a high number of students with 4s or 5s....95% of students taking the AP XYZ test got 4 or above! Because you filtered out the ones who would not score high
Ah--I'm not saying AP exams
aren't withheld in this way, just that they
shouldn't. It is not the student's responsibility to make the school look good at the expense of forgoing opportunities to improve the student's own prospects.
Quote from: ergative on November 15, 2021, 12:22:04 PM
Quote from: bopper on November 15, 2021, 11:16:44 AM
Quote from: ergative on November 10, 2021, 01:11:18 AM
Ah--that changes things, I think. I don't think AP exam opportunities should be withheld this way. A student should not be denied the opportunity to take an exam that can open doors for their future, even if the teacher thinks that they're not prepared.
Depends on if the school wants a high number of students with 4s or 5s....95% of students taking the AP XYZ test got 4 or above! Because you filtered out the ones who would not score high
Ah--I'm not saying AP exams aren't withheld in this way, just that they shouldn't. It is not the student's responsibility to make the school look good at the expense of forgoing opportunities to improve the student's own prospects.
The AP folks are happy to take the money and let anyone take the test, even folks who haven't taken the AP course in high school. Heck, some schools pay for all of their students to take the exam in the name of equal access. I bet if the parents insisted that the school would let the student sit the exam.
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 16, 2021, 07:25:42 AM
Quote from: ergative on November 15, 2021, 12:22:04 PM
Quote from: bopper on November 15, 2021, 11:16:44 AM
Quote from: ergative on November 10, 2021, 01:11:18 AM
Ah--that changes things, I think. I don't think AP exam opportunities should be withheld this way. A student should not be denied the opportunity to take an exam that can open doors for their future, even if the teacher thinks that they're not prepared.
Depends on if the school wants a high number of students with 4s or 5s....95% of students taking the AP XYZ test got 4 or above! Because you filtered out the ones who would not score high
Ah--I'm not saying AP exams aren't withheld in this way, just that they shouldn't. It is not the student's responsibility to make the school look good at the expense of forgoing opportunities to improve the student's own prospects.
The AP folks are happy to take the money and let anyone take the test, even folks who haven't taken the AP course in high school. Heck, some schools pay for all of their students to take the exam in the name of equal access. I bet if the parents insisted that the school would let the student sit the exam.
Maybe things have changed since I took the exams, but we didn't even take them at our school. We went to another high school to take them on a Saturday. I believe I took another AP exam at a testing center. Not sure if the school can even control who takes the exam if its done there, but it doesn't really matter that much. Anybody can take the exams.
Whenever I have some major paper due, a student inevitably writes the night before asking what the paper is about and what they are supposed to do. Well, first of all, the assignment is right there on Canvas, but we've been talking about this damn thing in class for the last three weeks. Check attendance...ah, I see the problem...
Just to choose one example, according to the College Board, 43 per cent of students who sat the AP English Language and Composition exam got scores of 1 or 2: https://twitter.com/AP_Trevor/status/1417503061036216324
Of those who sat the AP Comparative Government exam, 28 per cent got scores of 1 or 2: https://twitter.com/AP_Trevor/status/1416435025755746307
Of those who sat the AP US History exam, 52 per cent scored a 1 or 2: https://twitter.com/AP_Trevor/status/1415737930094718979
So, yes, lots of students who do not score well take the exam. The College Board does not require a student to have a minimum, or even any, course grade to take the exam. I took several exams 20 years ago without having taken a single AP course, because my school didn't offer AP courses. Now that is less common, but still possible.
I would say, from the College Board's perspective, low-scoring students are probably good (so long as there are high-scoring students also) because:
1 They pay money (which helps pay for the scoring).
2.They provide a better spread of scores (i.e., if 80 per cent of students scored 4 or 5, it would call into question the validity of the exam).
3. They add to the total number of people taking the exam (an exam that has 500,000 people sitting it seems more legitimate than one with 250,000 students, even if half of them fail).
Quote from: jerseyjay on November 17, 2021, 04:25:51 AM
Just to choose one example, according to the College Board, 43 per cent of students who sat the AP English Language and Composition exam got scores of 1 or 2: https://twitter.com/AP_Trevor/status/1417503061036216324
Of those who sat the AP Comparative Government exam, 28 per cent got scores of 1 or 2: https://twitter.com/AP_Trevor/status/1416435025755746307
Of those who sat the AP US History exam, 52 per cent scored a 1 or 2: https://twitter.com/AP_Trevor/status/1415737930094718979
So, yes, lots of students who do not score well take the exam. The College Board does not require a student to have a minimum, or even any, course grade to take the exam. I took several exams 20 years ago without having taken a single AP course, because my school didn't offer AP courses. Now that is less common, but still possible.
I would say, from the College Board's perspective, low-scoring students are probably good (so long as there are high-scoring students also) because:
1 They pay money (which helps pay for the scoring).
2.They provide a better spread of scores (i.e., if 80 per cent of students scored 4 or 5, it would call into question the validity of the exam).
3. They add to the total number of people taking the exam (an exam that has 500,000 people sitting it seems more legitimate than one with 250,000 students, even if half of them fail).
As someone who has scored thousands of the AP Biology exams, I can also tell you that many students don't do well on that exam either.
It's supposed to be challenging and (intro) college level material. That's why it can count as college credit. Ironically, the lack of logical reasoning skills is what makes a lot of students do poorly. As in, "you were asked what will happen to the fish population. Your answer says nothing about the fish. 0 points."
Quote from: jerseyjay on November 17, 2021, 04:25:51 AM
Just to choose one example, according to the College Board, 43 per cent of students who sat the AP English Language and Composition exam got scores of 1 or 2: https://twitter.com/AP_Trevor/status/1417503061036216324
Of those who sat the AP Comparative Government exam, 28 per cent got scores of 1 or 2: https://twitter.com/AP_Trevor/status/1416435025755746307
Of those who sat the AP US History exam, 52 per cent scored a 1 or 2: https://twitter.com/AP_Trevor/status/1415737930094718979
So, yes, lots of students who do not score well take the exam. The College Board does not require a student to have a minimum, or even any, course grade to take the exam. I took several exams 20 years ago without having taken a single AP course, because my school didn't offer AP courses. Now that is less common, but still possible.
I would say, from the College Board's perspective, low-scoring students are probably good (so long as there are high-scoring students also) because:
1 They pay money (which helps pay for the scoring).
2.They provide a better spread of scores (i.e., if 80 per cent of students scored 4 or 5, it would call into question the validity of the exam).
3. They add to the total number of people taking the exam (an exam that has 500,000 people sitting it seems more legitimate than one with 250,000 students, even if half of them fail).
Yeah, and I looked, exams are definitely open to any high school student. I doubt the teacher can really tell a student they can't take the one offered at school, but it probably isn't worth even fighting about that. Go take it on Saturday somewhere else.
Student who is failing requests a Zoom meeting to discuss her situation. I reply asking what info she is seeking. She replies she wants to know how to do better. I reply: do the work, look at the grading rubric to see where you can improve, look at other students' work for examples of strong work. She thanks me. Zoom meeting averted.
Registration for next term is underway. I've had several emails that go like this:
stu: Help! I can't register for [baskets 101]! What do I do? Can you add me?
me: You need to register for a lecture & a linked discussion. There are seats in section [Y].
stu: There are no seats! I'm never going to graduate!
me: There are seats in section [Y]. Register for section [Y]
stu: I can't! See screenshot.
me: You tried to register for lecture section [Z]. Register for section [Y]
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 30, 2021, 12:31:55 PM
Registration for next term is underway. I've had several emails that go like this:
stu: Help! I can't register for [baskets 101]! What do I do? Can you add me?
me: You need to register for a lecture & a linked discussion. There are seats in section [Y].
stu: There are no seats! I'm never going to graduate!
me: There are seats in section [Y]. Register for section [Y]
stu: I can't! See screenshot.
me: You tried to register for lecture section [Z]. Register for section [Y]
This is very familiar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3YiPC91QUk). (Starts at 1:52 (https://youtu.be/g3YiPC91QUk?t=112).)
You mean, because he shouldn't leave the room?
Or because he shouldn't start singing...?
M.
I contacted all students who were absent from their presentations last week. Got this one:
QuoteI received an email that said to contact you in regards to being absent from the [Basketweaving 101] presentation in Week [X]. Is there something I need to do?
Baffled student
Yep.
Stu emailed me and said it would be 'such a shame' to receive a B since stu has an 88% in the course.
I'm currently biting my tongue.
Quote
Is there anything I could do to make up for missing almost all the classes, please? I can't stress it enough! I have a 4.0 GPA and I really don't want to lose my GPA. I know it was fully my responsibility, but I really hope on your understanding. I am scared of the class, I don't even know how to explain it. I will do anything. Thank you!
How about just showing up.
I am letting hu do the work for, at best, a C since I do not have a stated attendance policy and hu missed the quizzes worth 20%.
We have had a ton of these this year all over. Something seems to have changed at our school in the wake of COVID.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 10, 2021, 04:31:43 PM
Quote
Is there anything I could do to make up for missing almost all the classes, please? I can't stress it enough! I have a 4.0 GPA and I really don't want to lose my GPA. I know it was fully my responsibility, but I really hope on your understanding. I am scared of the class, I don't even know how to explain it. I will do anything. Thank you!
How about just showing up.
I am letting hu do the work for, at best, a C since I do not have a stated attendance policy and hu missed the quizzes worth 20%.
We have had a ton of these this year all over. Something seems to have changed at our school in the wake of COVID.
People with social anxiety were able to engage in avoidance for a year and half, which is the worst possible thing for social anxiety. Reentry has been tough for these students.
I do feel for the students who have social anxiety and who otherwise do their work diligently and well. That's one reason I never grade for attendance. If they can learn it without showing up, more power to them — they're playing on the hard setting.
He isn't my student this semester, but a colleague forwarded me the following email exchange with one of my advisees:
Dear Stu,
As you know, you have been behind in the capstone basketweaving course since early in the semester.
I am letting you know that at this time, your basket is not acceptable. You will need to make major improvements on your basket so it meets the required standards and gives you the possibility to pass the course. As you also know, you have zeros for several preliminary basket drafts that calculate into your grade.
Here are the major areas of deficiencies:
(8 highly detailed explanations of what is wrong and very specific bulletpointed instructions on exactly how to fix said deficiencies)
You have until (specific date) to submit a revised basket. That will give me one day to grade it and meet the Registrar's grade submission deadline.
- Revisit the basketweaving project manual for directions.
- Follow the basket template precisely.
- Cite well.
- Fix your references section and make sure only you only include references that were used to make your basket.
Please let me know that you received this message and if you have any questions.
Best regards,
(My [60ish, married, and PhD holding] Colleague)
Response from the student in question:
Good day Miss,
Do you have any time to meet to get a better explanation of the changes to be made to the paper?
Stu
Email to me from said colleague, forwarding the exchange:
Was I not clear on what needed to be done????
Stu is buying time.
M.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 10, 2021, 04:17:11 PM
Stu emailed me and said it would be 'such a shame' to receive a B since stu has an 88% in the course.
I'm currently biting my tongue.
Response: Perhaps, but the "B" would correspond directly to the course policies as outlined in the syllabus. Have a great break!
A student emailed me asking if she could submit a project that was due in *October* (and had a generous extension-with-mild-penalty date as well). She claimed that an allergy caused her not to be able to see, and that she is petitioning all her professors to let her submit work she says she was unable to do at that time.
BUT...she managed to do everything else—quizzes, discussion postings—during that time frame, both of which required eyesight. Color me suspicious. The zero on that project is resulting in a grade of B rather than A.
I responded that the only work I am accepting at this point is the final exam. And I expressed wishes for continued health and eyesight.
I did not go on to say this: If she had contacted me at the time, I might have granted some leniency. But now? Nope.
Quote from: cathwen on December 14, 2021, 05:12:27 AM
A student emailed me asking if she could submit a project that was due in *October* (and had a generous extension-with-mild-penalty date as well). She claimed that an allergy caused her not to be able to see, and that she is petitioning all her professors to let her submit work she says she was unable to do at that time.
BUT...she managed to do everything else—quizzes, discussion postings—during that time frame, both of which required eyesight. Color me suspicious. The zero on that project is resulting in a grade of B rather than A.
I responded that the only work I am accepting at this point is the final exam. And I expressed wishes for continued health and eyesight.
I did not go on to say this: If she had contacted me at the time, I might have granted some leniency. But now? Nope.
I'd contact their academic advisor. If the student had a major health crisis (doubtful for this particular case), then they could always ask for late withdrawals or change to Pass/Fail or other support. At my university, lying about a health crisis/a death in the family/other big thing is a way to get academic sanctions. Kick this one up the chain of command.
Dear Stu,
I'm sorry to hear about your health issues. The only work I'm accepting at this point is the final exam. However, I have contacted [Advisor X] to let them know about your health concerns from October. I know this is not your only course and they can help you coordinate with all of your instructors.
Best,
Dr. Geneticist
I don't think I have access to have information about who my students academic advisors are.
Occasionally I tell students with personal issues that they have not documented that I will accept their late work if they get their academic advisor to write to me vouching for them. It almost never happens.
Quote from: downer on December 14, 2021, 12:24:46 PM
I don't think I have access to have information about who my students academic advisors are.
Occasionally I tell students with personal issues that they have not documented that I will accept their late work if they get their academic advisor to write to me vouching for them. It almost never happens.
Exactly this scenario. The student wanted very badly to explain hu's personal circumstances, claimed COVID, and I explained that hu need not fill me in on hu's life story (most likely a breakup, I'm betting) just a letter from an advisor or the Dean of Students office, even a note from the doctor, so I could legitimately give an extension...which never appeared despite my reminders that hu could not pass the class without something. So no favorite emails. No letters from the Dean. Bunko.
I'm betting I get a favorite student email after I turn in grades at the end of the week, however.
Student who could have passed the course if they had submitted a poster that consisted of more than 3 pictures and an equation. And, given that he was suspended at the time, he had plenty of free time to do this. Also, missing 2/3 of the quizzes and 3/4 of the reading quizzes did not help.
"Fishprof,
I'm sorry, if I have failed you or offended you. I seek forgiveness.
Hopeless"
"Fishprof
I have an E? Do I pass your class? Do I not deserve to pass? Please let me pass? I beg of you. I will do anything you ask, sir.
Increasingly Hopeless"
The second one was in response to the class-wide email informing them grades were posted and extending the deadline for a few outstanding items (I am probably gonna regret doing that)
I messaged a student in the LMS to ask which of the final project prompts they were answering. Their work was very jumbled and didn't really answer any of the prompts directly. Their reply back was that they answered a little bit of all of the prompts. They then followed that with several messages giving me a copy-paste repeat of their unclear answer. Well, I suppose a further demonstration of unclear written communication gives me clarity in a roundabout way?
Quote from: FishProf on December 15, 2021, 05:02:07 AM
Student who could have passed the course if they had submitted a poster that consisted of more than 3 pictures and an equation. And, given that he was suspended at the time, he had plenty of free time to do this. Also, missing 2/3 of the quizzes and 3/4 of the reading quizzes did not help.
"Fishprof,
I'm sorry, if I have failed you or offended you. I seek forgiveness.
Hopeless"
"Fishprof
I have an E? Do I pass your class? Do I not deserve to pass? Please let me pass? I beg of you. I will do anything you ask, sir.
Increasingly Hopeless"
The second one was in response to the class-wide email informing them grades were posted and extending the deadline for a few outstanding items (I am probably gonna regret doing that)
Time for a "grades are earned based on [X criteria]. See the syllabus for the exact point distribution and letter grade cut-offs" email.
I just got an email begging for 1.5% more to pass the course. Because effort.
I pointed out that the student's effort had to have been quite minimal, since they didn't submit 3/8 assignments and failed despite me already giving everyone 10% in the form of free participation marks.
But I was sorely tempted to accede to the demand. Then they would have learned that 1.5% still left them 0.24% shy of a passing grade.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 20, 2021, 10:49:43 AM
I just got an email begging for 1.5% more to pass the course. Because effort.
I pointed out that the student's effort had to have been quite minimal, since they didn't submit 3/8 assignments and failed despite me already giving everyone 10% in the form of free participation marks.
But I was sorely tempted to accede to the demand. Then they would have learned that 1.5% still left them 0.24% shy of a passig grade.
Do it. Do it. Do it.
Quote from: FishProf on December 20, 2021, 11:15:53 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 20, 2021, 10:49:43 AM
I just got an email begging for 1.5% more to pass the course. Because effort.
I pointed out that the student's effort had to have been quite minimal, since they didn't submit 3/8 assignments and failed despite me already giving everyone 10% in the form of free participation marks.
But I was sorely tempted to accede to the demand. Then they would have learned that 1.5% still left them 0.24% shy of a passig grade.
Do it. Do it. Do it.
Of course that's when the second email comes asking you to round the grade up to the passing grade
Quote from: downer on December 14, 2021, 12:24:46 PM
I don't think I have access to have information about who my students academic advisors are.
Occasionally I tell students with personal issues that they have not documented that I will accept their late work if they get their academic advisor to write to me vouching for them. It almost never happens.
Right, well, you are an adjunct, correct? So there is pressure on the tenure track faculty to pretend your presence is a temporary situation. So why let you know who the students' advisors are? That would only feed the perception that you are a regular part of the school's functioning, which undercuts the tenure track's feigned campaign for using only 'regular' faculty.
Time-stamped 12:12 AM:
Quote
I noticed you had uploaded our final grades. I thought I deserved at least
an A-. Would you mind explaining why my final grade ended in a B+? Thank
you.
Auto-reply was turned on at 10 PM last night, so I don't have to reply to grade-grubbing emails until early next month.
Stu, how about reading my comments on your assignments?
Quote from: ricecloudnine on December 21, 2021, 08:05:15 PM
Quote from: FishProf on December 20, 2021, 11:15:53 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 20, 2021, 10:49:43 AM
I just got an email begging for 1.5% more to pass the course. Because effort.
I pointed out that the student's effort had to have been quite minimal, since they didn't submit 3/8 assignments and failed despite me already giving everyone 10% in the form of free participation marks.
But I was sorely tempted to accede to the demand. Then they would have learned that 1.5% still left them 0.24% shy of a passig grade.
Do it. Do it. Do it.
Of course that's when the second email comes asking you to round the grade up to the passing grade
Yeah, that's the worry.
Quote from: Langue_doc on December 22, 2021, 03:50:11 AM
Time-stamped 12:12 AM:
Quote
I noticed you had uploaded our final grades. I thought I deserved at least
an A-. Would you mind explaining why my final grade ended in a B+? Thank
you.
Auto-reply was turned on at 10 PM last night, so I don't have to reply to grade-grubbing emails until early next month.
Stu, how about reading my comments on your assignments?
I have a student who's like that. I leave
extensive comments on his work, but it's usually a low B or a C, and he comes to my office hours to talk about it. Which is good, except I don't have anything to say to him that I haven't already written in the comments. Ah, well. that's what office hours are for, and he doesn't argue. He just wants to know what he can do better. But he could learn that by reading the final bit of my comments, which always say, 'In future assignments, try focusing on [X].'
Dear Professor,
My name is ----, I am in English Composition II 102- ---. I am concerned about my grade a little bit, I have looked at the banner to check my grade report. I do not quite understand that am I passing your class? and with what grade?
It's a C. Though I'm reconsidering that now.....
Out-of-office autoreply until January 18.
Received today for a class beginning next week:
"is it anyway possible to get the papers pages reduced? For example 4 instead of 8. This will help me so much I have already been worrying about them. Thank you."
I have been teaching for nearly ten years, and have never before received a request to do half the writing (for full credit, anyway!).
Quote from: reverist on January 06, 2022, 09:12:42 AM
Received today for a class beginning next week:
"is it anyway possible to get the papers pages reduced? For example 4 instead of 8. This will help me so much I have already been worrying about them. Thank you."
I have been teaching for nearly ten years, and have never before received a request to do half the writing (for full credit, anyway!).
Does this student not know how to change font sizes and use creative spacing? Stretching a paper to double its actual content length would be exceptional, but I've seen examples that come fairly close.
Quote from: apl68 on January 06, 2022, 09:15:58 AM
Quote from: reverist on January 06, 2022, 09:12:42 AM
Received today for a class beginning next week:
"is it anyway possible to get the papers pages reduced? For example 4 instead of 8. This will help me so much I have already been worrying about them. Thank you."
I have been teaching for nearly ten years, and have never before received a request to do half the writing (for full credit, anyway!).
Wouldn't help them in my classes--I switched from page counts to word count requirements years ago, for just this reason.
Does this student not know how to change font sizes and use creative spacing? Stretching a paper to double its actual content length would be exceptional, but I've seen examples that come fairly close.
Quote from: apl68 on January 06, 2022, 09:15:58 AM
Does this student not know how to change font sizes and use creative spacing? Stretching a paper to double its actual content length would be exceptional, but I've seen examples that come fairly close.
The best part: I looked up the class he's in (he didn't say in the email) and the writing assignments are word count-based, not page-based (I do more word counts than pages these days for exactly the reasons you outline!). Oddly enough, they probably will come out to be around eight pages. So I don't know if he has an old copy of the syllabus (I ran the same two writing assignments but with pages instead of words just pre-COVID), or just worked it out, or what.
Simple:
"Dear Student,
If you want to make the margins smaller so that the required word count is met, but it fits on fewer pages for a reduction in printing costs, or if you're running short on paper, I have no objection to that as a one-time exception.
Otherwise, no."
---
Oh, but wait--they don't even print things out for submission anymore, do they?
So...forget it.
M.
As my University has insisted we are back in-person and everything is fine, I'm now starting to get expected emails from students saying that they have tested positive for COVID so they will not be in class or they've been exposed to COVID and are waiting for their test results so they may not be in class. Responses to those are easy-- I'm sorry to hear that, hope you feel better, join the class live feed on Zoom if you feel well enough, follow University protocols for positive tests. (I'm hy-flexing my classes, particularly in January. I'm teaching from the classroom to satisfy the University, but Zooming the class for those who can't come. So far, no push back. I don't really like this model, but I recognize the utility, particularly during the omicron surge).
But today, I'm not sure how to respond to a student who emailed me to explain that they would not be in class or able to Zoom for a week because their family is going on a cruise mid-January.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on January 07, 2022, 05:00:16 PM
As my University has insisted we are back in-person and everything is fine, I'm now starting to get expected emails from students saying that they have tested positive for COVID so they will not be in class or they've been exposed to COVID and are waiting for their test results so they may not be in class. Responses to those are easy-- I'm sorry to hear that, hope you feel better, join the class live feed on Zoom if you feel well enough, follow University protocols for positive tests. (I'm hy-flexing my classes, particularly in January. I'm teaching from the classroom to satisfy the University, but Zooming the class for those who can't come. So far, no push back. I don't really like this model, but I recognize the utility, particularly during the omicron surge).
But today, I'm not sure how to respond to a student who emailed me to explain that they would not be in class or able to Zoom for a week because their family is going on a cruise mid-January.
"Dear Stu,
What a great joke! Wait, you were joking right? On the off chance you weren't, you are of course free to make that choice but be aware that you will not be able to make up the content or assignments you miss that week. Choices have consequences so choose carefully.
All the best, OMY"
I have in fact sent some version of this email to students who informed me they were "extending" their break or going out of town during a non-break period for non-emergency reasons.
You might also point out that virtually all cruise ships have computers and internet connections, and that you are looking forward to having them Zoom in from wherever the cruise is going.
And that virtually all cruises have been cancelled.
I had a version of this recently. Online student asking to reschedule an exam (already open as fully remote with a 24 hour window) because they'd be traveling on a vacation and have sensory issues so didn't think they could concentrate effectively taking the exam on their trip. I asked for their accommodation letter so I could make sure I made all of the relevant updates to the LMS to support their needs and they responded they didn't have any formal accommodations because it's never been an issue, but they are worried about traveling. So then I asked for the travel schedule so that I could verify that they would not have internet access or privacy (like they would be in an airport or trainstation) during our 24 hour exam window. Suddenly they discover that they misread the email from their parent and it wouldn't be any problem to take the exam on schedule.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 08, 2022, 07:30:25 AM
And that virtually all cruises have been cancelled.
Yes, a cruise ship is a Petri dish waiting to explode.
And frankly, knowing what I know now from two chaplains of ship workers on cruises, they should be boycotted on human rights issues alone.
Between late-night buffet set-up, which ends at 2:30 AM, and 4:30 AM breakfast prep, first and second meal setups, and cleaning duties, most cruise workers get two 2-hour sleep shifts a day (fewer if someone else is sick). Most are kept onboard and not allowed to get off during landings in port: the captain keeps their passports locked away and doesn't release them, sometimes for months at a time.
Most, generally third-world denizens, haven't seen their families (to whom they send all their pay) in years, are paid and tipped poorly, and if the shipping company goes under, sometimes the ship is held as collateral against debts, and the workers can't get off: until the legal paperwork is settled, which can take years, the physical boat is anchored far off-shore to prevent the former owners from scrapping it and raising their own cash from it.
One of the chaplains discovered, going out to take communion to a group of Filippino Catholics, that they hadn't been fed in three days. He went back, got a local store he knew to donate 18 hot meals and several boxes of canned good, and brought the food out to the workers.
Then they celebrated Mass.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on January 11, 2022, 08:29:08 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 08, 2022, 07:30:25 AM
And that virtually all cruises have been cancelled.
Yes, a cruise ship is a Petri dish waiting to explode.
And frankly, knowing what I know now from two chaplains of ship workers on cruises, they should be boycotted on human rights issues alone.
Between late-night buffet set-up, which ends at 2:30 AM, and 4:30 AM breakfast prep, first and second meal setups, and cleaning duties, most cruise workers get two 2-hour sleep shifts a day (fewer if someone else is sick). Most are kept onboard and not allowed to get off during landings in port: the captain keeps their passports locked away and doesn't release them, sometimes for months at a time.
Most, generally third-world denizens, haven't seen their families (to whom they send all their pay) in years, are paid and tipped poorly, and if the shipping company goes under, sometimes the ship is held as collateral against debts, and the workers can't get off: until the legal paperwork is settled, which can take years, the physical boat is anchored far off-shore to prevent the former owners from scrapping it and raising their own cash from it.
One of the chaplains discovered, going out to take communion to a group of Filippino Catholics, that they hadn't been fed in three days. He went back, got a local store he knew to donate 18 hot meals and several boxes of canned good, and brought the food out to the workers.
Then they celebrated Mass.
M.
This post is somehow infuriating, saddening, and heartwarming all at the same time.
Came across this while deleting old emails:
Quote
Professor i wrote my essay thats due today at 9pm on "the [short story]". But, one of my classmates told me it was supposed to be written about a "[different short story]". Can i still get graded for it because i have been working on it all week?
Capitals, capitals!
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 18, 2022, 12:04:38 PM
Came across this while deleting old emails:
Quote
Professor i wrote my essay thats due today at 9pm on "the yellow wallpaper". But, one of my classmates told me it was supposed to be written about a "rose for emily". Can i still get graded for it because i have been working on it all week?
Absolutely. When you retake my class next semester.
First email from a student:
Quote
I have a doctor appointment
Second email, a minute later:
Quote
I meant to write I have a doctor appointment at that time.
Email from the pre-pandemic days:
Quote
You need to look over my grades again. I am and athlete if you are not here I need to meet with someone tomorrow. It is unacceptable that you gave me a failing grade
My wife had these email exchange with a student (real name changed):
Layala: "...okay, thank you professor. Layla."
Wife: "Sorry, I've been been calling you 'Layala.' Is that not right?" (Notes that the email name is "Layala&education.edu")
Layala: "No, my name is 'Layla.' My dad just spelled it wrong on my birth certificate and it costs, like, $700 to change your name."
Student emails me and wants to work through each lab virtually. Um, no. I can answer specific questions, but not do the entire lab for you.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on January 18, 2022, 04:46:47 PM
My wife had these email exchange with a student (real name changed):
Layala: "...okay, thank you professor. Layla."
Wife: "Sorry, I've been been calling you 'Layala.' Is that not right?" (Notes that the email name is "Layala&education.edu")
Layala: "No, my name is 'Layla.' My dad just spelled it wrong on my birth certificate and it costs, like, $700 to change your name."
Oh, poor Layla. What a tiresome hassle to have hanging off every interaction. I'm reminded of Terry Pratchett's
Carpe Jugulum, in which the Queen of Lancre is named Magrat--not Margaret, Magrat--because the person presiding over her naming ceremony misread the slip of paper with her name on it. So at her own daughter's naming ceremony, Magrat takes steps to make sure that the same does not happen again by writing
very clear instructions on the slip of paper with her daughter's name on it. So on the day he faithfully reads the paper exactly as written, obediently proclaiming that the daughter's name will be, forevermore, officially, 'Esmerelda Margaret Note Spelling of Lancre'.
Quote from: ergative on January 19, 2022, 12:07:36 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on January 18, 2022, 04:46:47 PM
My wife had these email exchange with a student (real name changed):
Layala: "...okay, thank you professor. Layla."
Wife: "Sorry, I've been been calling you 'Layala.' Is that not right?" (Notes that the email name is "Layala&education.edu")
Layala: "No, my name is 'Layla.' My dad just spelled it wrong on my birth certificate and it costs, like, $700 to change your name."
Oh, poor Layla. What a tiresome hassle to have hanging off every interaction. I'm reminded of Terry Pratchett's Carpe Jugulum, in which the Queen of Lancre is named Magrat--not Margaret, Magrat--because the person presiding over her naming ceremony misread the slip of paper with her name on it. So at her own daughter's naming ceremony, Magrat takes steps to make sure that the same does not happen again by writing very clear instructions on the slip of paper with her daughter's name on it. So on the day he faithfully reads the paper exactly as written, obediently proclaiming that the daughter's name will be, forevermore, officially, 'Esmerelda Margaret Note Spelling of Lancre'.
Similar thing for Oprah. Her name was supposed to from the Bible, i.e. the sister-in-law of Ruth, who was ORPah.
I always wondered about that!
M.
Quote from: mamselle on January 19, 2022, 08:29:05 AM
I always wondered about that!
M.
The weird thing about Bible names for kids is the associations they have.
Orpah - the daughter-in-law who turned back?
Judas - independent thinker???
Jezebel - strong female???
Delilah
Absolom
I wonder if many people just vaguely remember names without remembering the stories.....
"Hey professor im enrolled in your [class I don't teach] and I haven't been present thus far due to outside problems I've had to unfortunately deal with right as the seamster started but im ready to be present and get caught up if possible. Id appreciate if we could set a zoom up maybe so I can see what I need to do. If you could get back to me please and thank you.
stu"
We're in the middle of week two of the semester. I emailed Stu and told him that I was not teaching that course and he should check either his schedule or the LMS to find out who his professor was and contact them. Poor thing. From what I know about the class he's taking, he's already dug himself rather deep in a hole as that class starts out quickly and gains momentum from there.
Quote from: EdnaMode on January 19, 2022, 08:59:41 AM
"Hey professor im enrolled in your [class I don't teach] and I haven't been present thus far due to outside problems I've had to unfortunately deal with right as the seamster started but im ready to be present and get caught up if possible. Id appreciate if we could set a zoom up maybe so I can see what I need to do. If you could get back to me please and thank you.
stu"
We're in the middle of week two of the semester. I emailed Stu and told him that I was not teaching that course and he should check either his schedule or the LMS to find out who his professor was and contact them. Poor thing. From what I know about the class he's taking, he's already dug himself rather deep in a hole as that class starts out quickly and gains momentum from there.
I emailed all students who were earning less than 10% of the possible points & got one back:
QuoteI had some trouble with wifi and I was out of town in the beginning of the quarter and recently it has just been covid affecting my family and I. I should be good to go now, sorry for the inconveniences. Is there anything I could do to help my grade?
Yes. Log on to the LMS and TURN SOMETHING IN.
And we're in week 3 of 10. Not a good way to start out your quarter.
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 19, 2022, 08:51:41 AM
Quote from: mamselle on January 19, 2022, 08:29:05 AM
I always wondered about that!
M.
The weird thing about Bible names for kids is the associations they have.
Orpah - the daughter-in-law who turned back?
Judas - independent thinker???
Jezebel - strong female???
Delilah
Absolom
I wonder if many people just vaguely remember names without remembering the stories.....
I
really wonder that with some place names I've seen. In my home county there was a community named Sodom in the early 1900s. It was an officially recognized rural community with its own post office for several years. In the early 1920s it merged with a neighboring postal district with the thoroughly unobjectionable name of Lenox. Maybe the Sodomites had had time to think better of their choice of name by then.
A neighboring county has a Sardis community, and when I was younger still had a Sardis church. An actual modern-day church named Sardis! It's now only a cemetery, which I guess makes a certain amount of sense.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 19, 2022, 10:22:11 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on January 19, 2022, 08:59:41 AM
"Hey professor im enrolled in your [class I don't teach] and I haven't been present thus far due to outside problems I've had to unfortunately deal with right as the seamster started but im ready to be present and get caught up if possible. Id appreciate if we could set a zoom up maybe so I can see what I need to do. If you could get back to me please and thank you.
stu"
We're in the middle of week two of the semester. I emailed Stu and told him that I was not teaching that course and he should check either his schedule or the LMS to find out who his professor was and contact them. Poor thing. From what I know about the class he's taking, he's already dug himself rather deep in a hole as that class starts out quickly and gains momentum from there.
I emailed all students who were earning less than 10% of the possible points & got one back:
QuoteI had some trouble with wifi and I was out of town in the beginning of the quarter and recently it has just been covid affecting my family and I. I should be good to go now, sorry for the inconveniences. Is there anything I could do to help my grade?
Yes. Log on to the LMS and TURN SOMETHING IN.
And we're in week 3 of 10. Not a good way to start out your quarter.
Oh, boy! I wonder what students like that are truly expecting us to say? Something like, "Hey, Stu! It's fine, don't worry about the missing work, you don't need to know that stuff anyway! Come to class when you feel like it, do the work when you can, and don't worry about points! It's all good!" My usual answer is along the lines of "See the syllabus for info on late work policies, you have until [date] to get late work turned in. All the reading and assignment info is on the LMS. My office hours are [date/time] and here's info for a tutor if you need one to help you get caught up."
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 19, 2022, 08:51:41 AM
Quote from: mamselle on January 19, 2022, 08:29:05 AM
I always wondered about that!
M.
The weird thing about Bible names for kids is the associations they have.
Orpah - the daughter-in-law who turned back?
Judas - independent thinker???
Jezebel - strong female???
Delilah
Absolom
I wonder if many people just vaguely remember names without remembering the stories.....
Sad to say from a religious educator's point of view, very little reading or teaching of Biblical literature goes on at present.
Most who use the names probably never even heard of or learned about the stories, or the figures named in them.
Some also have other connotations--Absalom was the name of the first Black bishop in the Anglican church; it may have even been a name given him or inherited from an enslaver or an enslaved parent (I'd have to look that part up, forget his exact life history) so its use now might reflect that connection.
The popular song 'Delilah' may have led to folks in the mid-20th c. naming their kids that with no other connection but liking the song.
'Judas' is often confuted with 'Jude,' a nickname (as we all know from the Beatles' song, now) for John.
And so on, and so on...
M.
I am not sure how many people's names were chosen for their "original" meaning vs. a combination of sounds and more recent connotations.
In Latin America, names from Greek and Roman mythology and history are much more common. I've known Octavios, Marc Antonios, Zeuses, Julio Cesars, etc. I once taught twins named Euclides and Ulysses. They had no idea of what their names meant, just that their parents liked their sounds. Interesting enough, in Latin America both Benito and Adolfo are relatively common names that are free from the stigma that they have in English.
Quote from: jerseyjay on January 19, 2022, 12:59:44 PM
I am not sure how many people's names were chosen for their "original" meaning vs. a combination of sounds and more recent connotations.
In Latin America, names from Greek and Roman mythology and history are much more common. I've known Octavios, Marc Antonios, Zeuses, Julio Cesars, etc. I once taught twins named Euclides and Ulysses. They had no idea of what their names meant, just that their parents liked their sounds. Interesting enough, in Latin America both Benito and Adolfo are relatively common names that are free from the stigma that they have in English.
I've noticed that about Latin American names.
Don't forget the Orazios!
Quote from: mamselle on January 19, 2022, 12:32:04 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 19, 2022, 08:51:41 AM
Quote from: mamselle on January 19, 2022, 08:29:05 AM
I always wondered about that!
M.
The weird thing about Bible names for kids is the associations they have.
Orpah - the daughter-in-law who turned back?
Judas - independent thinker???
Jezebel - strong female???
Delilah
Absolom
I wonder if many people just vaguely remember names without remembering the stories.....
Sad to say from a religious educator's point of view, very little reading or teaching of Biblical literature goes on at present.
Most who use the names probably never even heard of or learned about the stories, or the figures named in them.
Some also have other connotations--Absalom was the name of the first Black bishop in the Anglican church; it may have even been a name given him or inherited from an enslaver or an enslaved parent (I'd have to look that part up, forget his exact life history) so its use now might reflect that connection.
The popular song 'Delilah' may have led to folks in the mid-20th c. naming their kids that with no other connection but liking the song.
'Judas' is often confuted with 'Jude,' a nickname (as we all know from the Beatles' song, now) for John.
And so on, and so on...
M.
Wonder if that explains a Delilah I used to know? She tended to go by the nickname Cricket, which I have no idea about. I've seen other Absaloms from earlier centuries.
Interestingly enough, if you look at Civil War muster records you'll see the occasional Cephas or Adoniram, but for every one of those you'll find a dozen plain old Bills or Johns or Richards. Westerns and other historical fiction with nineteenth-century American settings sometimes give the impression that every other guy back then had a name plucked straight from Scripture, but that doesn't seem to have been the case. I guess they focus on the more obscure-sounding names to try to convey the "otherness" of the nineteenth century.
Quote from: EdnaMode on January 19, 2022, 12:22:58 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 19, 2022, 10:22:11 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on January 19, 2022, 08:59:41 AM
"Hey professor im enrolled in your [class I don't teach] and I haven't been present thus far due to outside problems I've had to unfortunately deal with right as the seamster started but im ready to be present and get caught up if possible. Id appreciate if we could set a zoom up maybe so I can see what I need to do. If you could get back to me please and thank you.
stu"
We're in the middle of week two of the semester. I emailed Stu and told him that I was not teaching that course and he should check either his schedule or the LMS to find out who his professor was and contact them. Poor thing. From what I know about the class he's taking, he's already dug himself rather deep in a hole as that class starts out quickly and gains momentum from there.
I emailed all students who were earning less than 10% of the possible points & got one back:
QuoteI had some trouble with wifi and I was out of town in the beginning of the quarter and recently it has just been covid affecting my family and I. I should be good to go now, sorry for the inconveniences. Is there anything I could do to help my grade?
Yes. Log on to the LMS and TURN SOMETHING IN.
And we're in week 3 of 10. Not a good way to start out your quarter.
Oh, boy! I wonder what students like that are truly expecting us to say? Something like, "Hey, Stu! It's fine, don't worry about the missing work, you don't need to know that stuff anyway! Come to class when you feel like it, do the work when you can, and don't worry about points! It's all good!" My usual answer is along the lines of "See the syllabus for info on late work policies, you have until [date] to get late work turned in. All the reading and assignment info is on the LMS. My office hours are [date/time] and here's info for a tutor if you need one to help you get caught up."
Probably something like "Don't worry about the first few weeks! Online classes aren't real! Deadlines and due dates are silly - just complete things any time you want!"
I directed them to the syllabus, contacted their advisor, and told them that their first exam is Friday. They should probably just drop.
David Hackett Fischer's 'Albion's Seed' makes much of the fact that American onomastic practices varied widely amongst his 4 regions, due to ethnic and religious reasons that went back to the British Isles. The Puritans were generally the only folk who loved the OT names... with the apparent exception of 'David', which Fischer theorizes was due partially to David's, ahem, unfortunate lapse of behavior wrt Uriah and Bathsheba, and partially due to the Scottish inheritance of the name, with Kings David up there, but never in England.
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 19, 2022, 10:30:25 PM
David Hackett Fischer's 'Albion's Seed' makes much of the fact that American onomastic practices varied widely amongst his 4 regions, due to ethnic and religious reasons that went back to the British Isles. The Puritans were generally the only folk who loved the OT names... with the apparent exception of 'David', which Fischer theorizes was due partially to David's, ahem, unfortunate lapse of behavior wrt Uriah and Bathsheba, and partially due to the Scottish inheritance of the name, with Kings David up there, but never in England.
It's been many a year since I read
Albion's Seed in grad school. I ought to check it out again sometime, if I can get hold of a copy.
Quote from: EdnaMode on January 19, 2022, 12:22:58 PM
Oh, boy! I wonder what students like that are truly expecting us to say? Something like, "Hey, Stu! It's fine, don't worry about the missing work, you don't need to know that stuff anyway! Come to class when you feel like it, do the work when you can, and don't worry about points! It's all good!" My usual answer is along the lines of "See the syllabus for info on late work policies, you have until [date] to get late work turned in. All the reading and assignment info is on the LMS. My office hours are [date/time] and here's info for a tutor if you need one to help you get caught up."
Here's your makeup packet! (containing about an hour of work)
...with all the work already completed, right?
A student did not turn in an assignment and wrote to me:
"I am sorry that I did not turn in the work because I had a personal affair during the time, but that's not an excuse"
I am fairly sure that this is supposed to be "personal issue" or "personal matter" but it did make me wistful for the time long ago that a personal affair could be so all-encompassing that I stopped thinking of anything else.
Students are taking a quiz in discussion this week. I've had 1 student email the claim they didn't get the full X minutes of time. And another say it somehow wasn't available to them.
You know my favorite part about online teaching? I can check these so easily!
Dear student 1,
According to the online report, you logged in at X:00 answered one question, and the quiz automatically submitted after X minutes.
Dear student 2,
According to the online report, you did not attempt to open the quiz until after my email saying you missed the quiz.
Students: websites do not make that sort of personalized mistake. If the quiz was unavailable, then NO ONE in your section would see the quiz, not just you. If the amount of time was wrong, it would be wrong for EVERYONE, not just you.
Student emails me and asks if stu can get the higher grade on the prelab quiz instead of me taking the average of both attempts. Stu also admits that stu knows the rule is if you take the quiz twice, then your grade is the average of both tries.
Um, I don't write up this crap in the syllabus for fun. It's only on the first page of the quiz- if you do it twice, then your grade is the average of both attempts.
Why do students ask these inane questions? Do they learn to do this shit in high school?
Grump. Grump. Grump.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 22, 2022, 01:53:59 PM
Student emails me and asks if stu can get the higher grade on the prelab quiz instead of me taking the average of both attempts. Stu also admits that stu knows the rule is if you take the quiz twice, then your grade is the average of both tries.
Um, I don't write up this crap in the syllabus for fun. It's only on the first page of the quiz- if you do it twice, then your grade is the average of both attempts.
Why do students ask these inane questions? Do they learn to do this shit in high school?
Grump. Grump. Grump.
There's no penalty for asking. You should put a warning on your syllabus stating that making such requests will result in the student receiving the lowest score of all attempts.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 20, 2022, 09:54:13 AM
Students are taking a quiz in discussion this week. I've had 1 student email the claim they didn't get the full X minutes of time. And another say it somehow wasn't available to them.
You know my favorite part about online teaching? I can check these so easily!
Dear student 1,
According to the online report, you logged in at X:00 answered one question, and the quiz automatically submitted after X minutes.
Dear student 2,
According to the online report, you did not attempt to open the quiz until after my email saying you missed the quiz.
Students: websites do not make that sort of personalized mistake. If the quiz was unavailable, then NO ONE in your section would see the quiz, not just you. If the amount of time was wrong, it would be wrong for EVERYONE, not just you.
I feel for you! Became utterly sick of such shenanigans (not just the outright lies, but also the brazen cheating, etc.) while forced to teach fully on-line. I was never so happy to go back to F2F - the risk of catching diseases be d*mned! It's mildly interesting, in a negative way, how some of the "easy" faculty in my dept. still prefer teaching on-line.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 22, 2022, 01:53:59 PM
Student emails me and asks if stu can get the higher grade on the prelab quiz instead of me taking the average of both attempts. Stu also admits that stu knows the rule is if you take the quiz twice, then your grade is the average of both tries.
Um, I don't write up this crap in the syllabus for fun. It's only on the first page of the quiz- if you do it twice, then your grade is the average of both attempts.
Why do students ask these inane questions? Do they learn to do this shit in high school?
Grump. Grump. Grump.
Yes, because they've been conditioned to the idea that it's the effort that counts and that it doesn't hurt to ask.
Just when I think I've heard everything. . .
Student presumed that I'd give him an extension on an assignment, despite the no-late-work policy. I explained that offering him this exception that all other students didn't receive would be unethical and unfair to all the others in the class. His follow-up:
Makes sense. Thank you for explaining it.
Would I be able to get an A in the class even though I missed this assignment?
If not, is it possible to extend the due date on this one for everyone so that it's fair for all the students?
o_O
I gently (?) replied that it was already fair for all the students as I'd originally handled it, and reminded him that poor planning/time management on his part does NOT constitute an emergency on my part.
I must be burned out/past caring at this point. Years ago, his request would have at least gotten a rise out of me. I will admit, though, that my first thought was to reply with, "Why, hell, yes. I'm happy to do as you ask! In fact, let's just cancel all those deadlines for the entire class for the whole semester--just turn things in if and whenever you feel like it!"
But I didn't. Clearly, I'm losing my touch.
Quote from: AmLitHist on January 25, 2022, 02:51:00 PM
Just when I think I've heard everything. . .
Student presumed that I'd give him an extension on an assignment, despite the no-late-work policy. I explained that offering him this exception that all other students didn't receive would be unethical and unfair to all the others in the class. His follow-up:
Makes sense. Thank you for explaining it.
Would I be able to get an A in the class even though I missed this assignment?
If not, is it possible to extend the due date on this one for everyone so that it's fair for all the students?
o_O
I gently (?) replied that it was already fair for all the students as I'd originally handled it, and reminded him that poor planning/time management on his part does NOT constitute an emergency on my part.
I must be burned out/past caring at this point. Years ago, his request would have at least gotten a rise out of me. I will admit, though, that my first thought was to reply with, "Why, hell, yes. I'm happy to do as you ask! In fact, let's just cancel all those deadlines for the entire class for the whole semester--just turn things in if and whenever you feel like it!"
But I didn't. Clearly, I'm losing my touch.
Damn. Well, it's all part of the 'customer service' we need to give. ;)
Quote from: AmLitHist on January 25, 2022, 02:51:00 PM
Just when I think I've heard everything. . .
Student presumed that I'd give him an extension on an assignment, despite the no-late-work policy. I explained that offering him this exception that all other students didn't receive would be unethical and unfair to all the others in the class. His follow-up:
Makes sense. Thank you for explaining it.
Would I be able to get an A in the class even though I missed this assignment?
I dislike the expectation that a student should be able to miss an assignment or fail an exam and still be able to earn an "A" in the course. IMHO, the highest grade is supposed reflect a consistently high level of performance.
Quote from: Anon1787 on January 25, 2022, 07:56:45 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on January 25, 2022, 02:51:00 PM
Just when I think I've heard everything. . .
Student presumed that I'd give him an extension on an assignment, despite the no-late-work policy. I explained that offering him this exception that all other students didn't receive would be unethical and unfair to all the others in the class. His follow-up:
Makes sense. Thank you for explaining it.
Would I be able to get an A in the class even though I missed this assignment?
I dislike the expectation that a student should be able to miss an assignment or fail an exam and still be able to earn an "A" in the course. IMHO, the highest grade is supposed reflect a consistently high level of performance.
Even simple completion of all assignments in accordance with the broad outlines of the requirements ("I wrote x number of words and cited x number of sources on my paper, just like you said!") shouldn't be an automatic A. Although from what I've seen on these threads here and at the old Fora, apparently many students believe it should. And have perhaps learned that that is the case in their K-12 experience.
Quote from: Anon1787 on January 25, 2022, 07:56:45 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on January 25, 2022, 02:51:00 PM
Just when I think I've heard everything. . .
Student presumed that I'd give him an extension on an assignment, despite the no-late-work policy. I explained that offering him this exception that all other students didn't receive would be unethical and unfair to all the others in the class. His follow-up:
Makes sense. Thank you for explaining it.
Would I be able to get an A in the class even though I missed this assignment?
I dislike the expectation that a student should be able to miss an assignment or fail an exam and still be able to earn an "A" in the course. IMHO, the highest grade is supposed reflect a consistently high level of performance.
The problem with the "miss an assignment" restriction on being able to get an A is that many people use the practice of dropping one (quiz, assignment, whatever) as a way to not have to vet every potential excuse. Requiring every assignment to be submitted gets back to having to vet every excuse, because even the worst students think they can get an A thanks to the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Quote from: Anon1787 on January 25, 2022, 07:56:45 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on January 25, 2022, 02:51:00 PM
Just when I think I've heard everything. . .
Student presumed that I'd give him an extension on an assignment, despite the no-late-work policy. I explained that offering him this exception that all other students didn't receive would be unethical and unfair to all the others in the class. His follow-up:
Makes sense. Thank you for explaining it.
Would I be able to get an A in the class even though I missed this assignment?
I dislike the expectation that a student should be able to miss an assignment or fail an exam and still be able to earn an "A" in the course. IMHO, the highest grade is supposed reflect a consistently high level of performance.
Meh. I'm just fine building in enough small assignments that a student can do poorly on a handful and still earn an A. Everyone is allowed a "bad week" or being a casualty of the learning curve.
Quote from: Anon1787 on January 25, 2022, 07:56:45 PM
I dislike the expectation that a student should be able to miss an assignment or fail an exam and still be able to earn an "A" in the course. IMHO, the highest grade is supposed reflect a consistently high level of performance.
I guess it would depend on what you mean by "assignment".
In the lower-level math classes, I have a fair amount of formative assignments that are deliberately low-stakes, and it'd be possible to miss a few and still get an A. An exam? Nah.
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 26, 2022, 06:45:09 AM
The problem with the "miss an assignment" restriction on being able to get an A is that many people use the practice of dropping one (quiz, assignment, whatever) as a way to not have to vet every potential excuse. Requiring every assignment to be submitted gets back to having to vet every excuse, because even the worst students think they can get an A thanks to the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Not really. The drop grade assumes everyone gets a freebie, so there is NO penalty for missing ONE. If you don't miss ANY, then you get a pass on your worst one. If you start accumulating Zeroes beyond that, your falling out of A-range performance.
IOW - the one you drop isn't a "missed assignment"
Quote from: FishProf on January 26, 2022, 07:35:14 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 26, 2022, 06:45:09 AM
The problem with the "miss an assignment" restriction on being able to get an A is that many people use the practice of dropping one (quiz, assignment, whatever) as a way to not have to vet every potential excuse. Requiring every assignment to be submitted gets back to having to vet every excuse, because even the worst students think they can get an A thanks to the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Not really. The drop grade assumes everyone gets a freebie, so there is NO penalty for missing ONE. If you don't miss ANY, then you get a pass on your worst one. If you start accumulating Zeroes beyond that, your falling out of A-range performance.
IOW - the one you drop isn't a "missed assignment"
I always drop the lowest couple of all the low-stakes weekly assignments-- it saves about 90% of the hassle of dealing with student complaints and excuses, so win-win.
Quote from: FishProf on January 26, 2022, 07:35:14 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 26, 2022, 06:45:09 AM
The problem with the "miss an assignment" restriction on being able to get an A is that many people use the practice of dropping one (quiz, assignment, whatever) as a way to not have to vet every potential excuse. Requiring every assignment to be submitted gets back to having to vet every excuse, because even the worst students think they can get an A thanks to the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Not really. The drop grade assumes everyone gets a freebie, so there is NO penalty for missing ONE. If you don't miss ANY, then you get a pass on your worst one. If you start accumulating Zeroes beyond that, your falling out of A-range performance.
IOW - the one you drop isn't a "missed assignment"
That's reasonable, and I agree; I wasn't sure from the original posting whether your interpretation was what was being suggested.
I have students who flail a first exam and can still earn an A, because they can demonstrate that they've learned and moved forward on a later exam (we have a final score will replace a lowest exam score if the final is higher). There's a huge difference between the students who just regularly do crap work and don't care and the ones that have legit had a bad day, or were unprepared but then realized with that wake up call what they needed to do to improve and master the course outcomes.
Quote from: AmLitHist on January 25, 2022, 02:51:00 PM
Just when I think I've heard everything. . .
Student presumed that I'd give him an extension on an assignment, despite the no-late-work policy. I explained that offering him this exception that all other students didn't receive would be unethical and unfair to all the others in the class. His follow-up:
Makes sense. Thank you for explaining it.
Would I be able to get an A in the class even though I missed this assignment?
If not, is it possible to extend the due date on this one for everyone so that it's fair for all the students?
o_O
I gently (?) replied that it was already fair for all the students as I'd originally handled it, and reminded him that poor planning/time management on his part does NOT constitute an emergency on my part.
I must be burned out/past caring at this point. Years ago, his request would have at least gotten a rise out of me. I will admit, though, that my first thought was to reply with, "Why, hell, yes. I'm happy to do as you ask! In fact, let's just cancel all those deadlines for the entire class for the whole semester--just turn things in if and whenever you feel like it!"
But I didn't. Clearly, I'm losing my touch.
Got to admit, the student was creative and bold! I've never had anyone ask to change the deadline for everyone after just that one student turned something in late. Usually the whole "out of fairness to your classmates" line means they say never mind & thanks.
Quote from: kiana on January 26, 2022, 07:32:49 AM
Quote from: Anon1787 on January 25, 2022, 07:56:45 PM
I dislike the expectation that a student should be able to miss an assignment or fail an exam and still be able to earn an "A" in the course. IMHO, the highest grade is supposed reflect a consistently high level of performance.
I guess it would depend on what you mean by "assignment".
In the lower-level math classes, I have a fair amount of formative assignments that are deliberately low-stakes, and it'd be possible to miss a few and still get an A. An exam? Nah.
I meant a major assignment. I understand the usefulness of low-stakes assignments.
From a student who missed the second half of an assignment (the first assignment of the semester):
Quote
... I'm sorry I didn't notice I had to do that too I just thought it was the two assignments is there anyways I can get the point back to get a 5/5? Thank you for your time and this will never happen again.
Every now and then I get very polite and apologetic emails; another student sent me a similar email. The students usually mean it when they say that this won't happen again.
Since student errors of this sort likely regularly occur at the beginning of the term, what do you do about it?
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 31, 2022, 09:31:03 PM
Since student errors of this sort likely regularly occur at the beginning of the term, what do you do about it?
I set the points so that the first assignment is worth very low points and I let the grade stand.
If I modify it, past experience has shown that they do not start reading carefully because they expect that I will let them fix it next time as well.
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 31, 2022, 09:31:03 PM
Since student errors of this sort likely regularly occur at the beginning of the term, what do you do about it?
These are low-stakes assignments; I remind these students that I will be dropping the two lowest scores in these categories, which seems to be acceptable as I don't get any more emails about these assignments.
Quote from: kiana on February 01, 2022, 03:14:04 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 31, 2022, 09:31:03 PM
Since student errors of this sort likely regularly occur at the beginning of the term, what do you do about it?
I set the points so that the first assignment is worth very low points and I let the grade stand.
If I modify it, past experience has shown that they do not start reading carefully because they expect that I will let them fix it next time as well.
Same here.
My typical response is "I bet you won't make that mistake again".
Sorry, double post. But a day apart..
From a student in my asynchronous online course that started on 18Jan22.
"I hope you are doing well.
I just wanted to reach out and give you an update as to why I'm behind in your course. I'm a transfer student from [Now Closed U], and coming to [FishProfU] has changed a lot for me. This included cutting down most of my hours at work. Because of this, I really only have enough money to get me to and from school. I know it sounds ridiculous given the low prices of the books, but I just couldn't afford to buy them with my own funds. I was waiting for refund money to order them.
After seeing I had gotten a red flag in this course, I did end up having a breakdown. My boyfriend offered to pay for them and put the order in last night. The books are due to come in tomorrow, then I can work on catching up."
Umm, OK. Three books, total cost <$45. Buy one for now? Get them from a Library?
More importantly, you have online lectures w/ quizzes, and videos w/quizzes. None of them require the books. Let's see, how many of those have you done. Oh - NONE.
What is the point of this email? Sympathy? Do the work, or don't. Your call. EVERYTHING is due in May.
This may be an email that they have sent to all of their professors, regardless of how applicable it is. I would flag them to your Dean of students or any student support services you may have. This is an all too familiar story, and they are not lying about the lack of funds. Since they are new to your Uni, they may not know that the library has a copy- likely their previous now-defunct school did not have the funds for that kind of resources. This is a cry for help- I would respond by directing them to those who can best provide that help.
I think mythbuster is spot on for this one as an email to all of their instructors from a student in a crisis , especially with the note about the barely having money to get to campus. Your class is online so the only reason they'd need to be on campus is for having access to good internet. I'd sent them to their academic advisor, dean of students, etc. and point them to other resources (food pantry? emergency funds?). And let them know that they can start the assignments for your class even without having the books.
"Please get back to me at your earliest convenience."
To explain why you got the grade you did? When I already filled out the grading rubric.
I need to bring out my list of priorities, and show where you fall on it.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 20, 2022, 09:54:13 AM
Students are taking a quiz in discussion this week. I've had 1 student email the claim they didn't get the full X minutes of time. And another say it somehow wasn't available to them.
You know my favorite part about online teaching? I can check these so easily!
Dear student 1,
According to the online report, you logged in at X:00 answered one question, and the quiz automatically submitted after X minutes.
Dear student 2,
According to the online report, you did not attempt to open the quiz until after my email saying you missed the quiz.
Students: websites do not make that sort of personalized mistake. If the quiz was unavailable, then NO ONE in your section would see the quiz, not just you. If the amount of time was wrong, it would be wrong for EVERYONE, not just you.
That's why I get emails like my recent one:
"I accidentally submitted the quiz before I finished. Can you please reopen it so I can finish?"
Quote from: downer on February 02, 2022, 11:41:39 AM
"Please get back to me at your earliest convenience."
To explain why you got the grade you did? When I already filled out the grading rubric.
I need to bring out my list of priorities, and show where you fall on it.
Students think they are being polite, but these sort of "I eagerly anticipate your reply" phrases make professors feel annoyed and stab-y.
Quote from: downer on February 02, 2022, 11:41:39 AM
"Please get back to me at your earliest convenience."
At my earliest convenience? OK, how about NEVER, does NEVER work for you?
Quote from: FishProf on February 03, 2022, 07:58:44 AM
Quote from: downer on February 02, 2022, 11:41:39 AM
"Please get back to me at your earliest convenience."
At my earliest convenience? OK, how about NEVER, does NEVER work for you?
Ebenezer:
I suppose you'll be wanting the whole day off tomorrow as usual.
Bob Cratchit:
If quite convenient, sir.
Ebenezer:
Every Christmas you say the same thing. And every Christmas it's just as inconvenient as the Christmas before.
It's a poor excuse for picking a man's pocket every 25th of December....
I got an email plea to raise a grade (from LAST semester) to an A (from a B). The poor little high school student (who was taking college courses) NEEDS me to raise this grade so that stu can apply for a scholarship. Now, that may be true, but an 84% does NOT curve to an A in my universe.
My school sent out a cancellation message this morning due to weather, noting that the campus is closed and classes are cancelled. A student promptly emailed to ask if we have class. Not sure how much clearer we can be than "classes are cancelled."
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 02, 2022, 02:35:58 PM
Quote from: downer on February 02, 2022, 11:41:39 AM
"Please get back to me at your earliest convenience."
To explain why you got the grade you did? When I already filled out the grading rubric.
I need to bring out my list of priorities, and show where you fall on it.
Students think they are being polite, but these sort of "I eagerly anticipate your reply" phrases make professors feel annoyed and stab-y.
Goodness, yes. On the one hand, these are sort of meaningless formulas that the students are practicing deploying as part of their professional correpondance toolkit, but on the other hand the meaning isn't entirely gone, and what remains of it is a frustratingly impatient demand to hurry up.
Possibly also a phrase they've heard a blowsy parent, boss, or film character use, and they're misappropriating it because they don't know any better.
Cluelessness leads to unintentional rudeness, at least some of the time.
M.
Quote from: ergative on February 04, 2022, 05:40:44 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 02, 2022, 02:35:58 PM
Quote from: downer on February 02, 2022, 11:41:39 AM
"Please get back to me at your earliest convenience."
To explain why you got the grade you did? When I already filled out the grading rubric.
I need to bring out my list of priorities, and show where you fall on it.
Students think they are being polite, but these sort of "I eagerly anticipate your reply" phrases make professors feel annoyed and stab-y.
Goodness, yes. On the one hand, these are sort of meaningless formulas that the students are practicing deploying as part of their professional correpondance toolkit, but on the other hand the meaning isn't entirely gone, and what remains of it is a frustratingly impatient demand to hurry up.
It's basically the same thing that happens when students think they are writing impressively in essays but use bizarre or archaic formulations that sound silly. There might have been a time when "I eagerly anticipate your reply" sounded polite, but for whatever reason most people do interpret it as pushy now. You can see how "respond to me at your earliest convenience" once was actually a way of saying that while you really wanted to hear back from the person, you understood they might be busy and not able to respond right away. Now it sounds demanding, probably because of changes in how we think of time and correspondence or something.
Quote from: Caracal on February 04, 2022, 08:18:17 AM
Quote from: ergative on February 04, 2022, 05:40:44 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 02, 2022, 02:35:58 PM
Quote from: downer on February 02, 2022, 11:41:39 AM
"Please get back to me at your earliest convenience."
To explain why you got the grade you did? When I already filled out the grading rubric.
I need to bring out my list of priorities, and show where you fall on it.
Students think they are being polite, but these sort of "I eagerly anticipate your reply" phrases make professors feel annoyed and stab-y.
Goodness, yes. On the one hand, these are sort of meaningless formulas that the students are practicing deploying as part of their professional correpondance toolkit, but on the other hand the meaning isn't entirely gone, and what remains of it is a frustratingly impatient demand to hurry up.
It's basically the same thing that happens when students think they are writing impressively in essays but use bizarre or archaic formulations that sound silly. There might have been a time when "I eagerly anticipate your reply" sounded polite, but for whatever reason most people do interpret it as pushy now. You can see how "respond to me at your earliest convenience" once was actually a way of saying that while you really wanted to hear back from the person, you understood they might be busy and not able to respond right away. Now it sounds demanding, probably because of changes in how we think of time and correspondence or something.
Maybe for our own amusement we should start encouraging ever more archaic closing phrases--"I remain your humble servant" etc.
That would be funny.
At a couple of schools I teach at, students often start out their messages with "I hope you are doing well." or they finish with "Thank you very much and have a great day." Maybe some email programs have auto-suggested sentences.
I try to quietly discourage such politeness. I emphasize my preference for keeping things simple.
Quote from: downer on February 04, 2022, 10:42:13 AM
That would be funny.
At a couple of schools I teach at, students often start out their messages with "I hope you are doing well." or they finish with "Thank you very much and have a great day." Maybe some email programs have auto-suggested sentences.
I try to quietly discourage such politeness. I emphasize my preference for keeping things simple.
I'm fine with simple politeness. I start most of my emails to students as "Thank you for your email." or "Glad to see you are planning ahead!"
and end with "Please let me know if you have any questions." If they are emailing me about being sick, I end with "I hope you feel better soon."
A tiny bit of kindness goes a long way with my students. And they are much less likely to argue if the email starts with a "thank you for asking" even if they answer to their question/request/demand is no.
Quote from: downer on February 04, 2022, 10:42:13 AM
At a couple of schools I teach at, students often start out their messages with "I hope you are doing well." or they finish with "Thank you very much and have a great day." Maybe some email programs have auto-suggested sentences.
I try to quietly discourage such politeness. I emphasize my preference for keeping things simple.
I have to say I don't understand this logic.
"Such politeness" in this case means a polite salutation and a polite conclusion. Having these makes the email less abrupt and, well, polite. An email that gets straight to the point is rude without some form of greeting. Rather than simple, I would say it is simple-minded. I would never write a colleague without a polite opening and conclusion, and I would be ill-disposed to anybody who wrote to me without such. (Of course, in an email chain, such politeness tends to cease in the back and forth, bur for an initial email, it seems useful.)
In Latin America, I was taught that it is rude to actually get to the point in less than two or three paragraphs of fluff. That is both obsolete and too much. But without some politeness, an email is rude.
Obviously there are cultural differences. In the South, you have to chat for 10 minutes before getting to the point. Some Northerners have told me they grew to like it. Personally, I can do without it. When dealing with peers, it's good to be nice. And there are some people I like.
However, with my class, it's my rules. I like taking it to bare functionality, for the most part.
I do mostly express some sort of sympathy when students say they are dealing with hard issues in their lives.
I work in the deep South, but I'm from the West and married to a New Yorker. I have had to train myself to add these fluff sentences to all student emails. Why? Otherwise I get reamed about being unapproachable and overly blunt and critical in student evals. Actually even our office staff have commented on how "straight to the point" I am.
So yes, it's definitely still a cultural/ regional thing.
Stu Dent:
"Professor, can the quizzes be set for extra time? I feel that there is not enough time for me to read and comprehend the questions, and that I'm just guessing on too many answers."
So I checked the student's latest quiz. She completed the quiz in *half* the time allocated for her, and got every question right except for one.
I am at a loss for words.
Quote from: Puget on February 04, 2022, 10:23:26 AM
Quote from: Caracal on February 04, 2022, 08:18:17 AM
Quote from: ergative on February 04, 2022, 05:40:44 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 02, 2022, 02:35:58 PM
Quote from: downer on February 02, 2022, 11:41:39 AM
"Please get back to me at your earliest convenience."
To explain why you got the grade you did? When I already filled out the grading rubric.
I need to bring out my list of priorities, and show where you fall on it.
Students think they are being polite, but these sort of "I eagerly anticipate your reply" phrases make professors feel annoyed and stab-y.
Goodness, yes. On the one hand, these are sort of meaningless formulas that the students are practicing deploying as part of their professional correpondance toolkit, but on the other hand the meaning isn't entirely gone, and what remains of it is a frustratingly impatient demand to hurry up.
It's basically the same thing that happens when students think they are writing impressively in essays but use bizarre or archaic formulations that sound silly. There might have been a time when "I eagerly anticipate your reply" sounded polite, but for whatever reason most people do interpret it as pushy now. You can see how "respond to me at your earliest convenience" once was actually a way of saying that while you really wanted to hear back from the person, you understood they might be busy and not able to respond right away. Now it sounds demanding, probably because of changes in how we think of time and correspondence or something.
Maybe for our own amusement we should start encouraging ever more archaic closing phrases--"I remain your humble servant" etc.
I think that's "Yr Obt Svt."
Quote from: mythbuster on February 04, 2022, 12:10:21 PM
I work in the deep South, but I'm from the West and married to a New Yorker. I have had to train myself to add these fluff sentences to all student emails. Why? Otherwise I get reamed about being unapproachable and overly blunt and critical in student evals. Actually even our office staff have commented on how "straight to the point" I am.
So yes, it's definitely still a cultural/ regional thing.
We used to have a staff member who ran into that sometimes. She was from the Great Lakes, and, despite having now spent more than half her life living in this region, still has a pronounced regional accent. I never found her less than polite, but now and then a patron thought she was being too abrupt and unapproachable.
She once told me that her son, who was only a boy when they moved here, adjusted to speaking with a local accent virtually overnight. As an adult he moved away to still another part of the country. When he returns on a visit, he no longer sounds much like he's from around here.
"Your most humble and obedient servant" is the older version of "Your student-centered facilitator of student success."
What mamselle says is true, of course, but, really, what part of 'don't give an order to a professor' don't these kids get? I largely despair of a return to 1950s-style, or heck, 1980s-style, appropriate student deference to their elders.
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 04, 2022, 10:48:16 PM
What mamselle says is true, of course, but, really, what part of 'don't give an order to a professor' don't these kids get? I largely despair of a return to 1950s-style, or heck, 1980s-style, appropriate student deference to their elders.
I think part of the issue is that boilerplate phrases like "I eagerly await your reply" or "please respond at your earliest convenience" are NOT phrased as direct orders. The order or expectation is implied, and students may not realize this.
They may think the message they are conveying is "I'd be very grateful for your response" or that, at most, they are making a polite request.
Contrast with, "Get back to me ASAP!"
In my historical research, I read quite a bit of correspondence from the 1890s-1930s. This correspondence has its own protocol (I think it used to be taught in school) and people understood what it mean. It was couched in politeness, but people knew what it meant. ("At your earliest convenience" was always understood to mean, as soon as possible; "at your convenience" meant when it suited you.)
I wouldn't expect students today to understand this, any more than I would expect them to know that "cc" stands for "carbon copy," much less how to use a carbon copy.
I do think that a level of politeness is useful. Just last week I was included in an email exchange in which a student called the dean of students incompetent, stupid, and mean. I don't know the dean of students well enough to comment on this, but the fact that the student seemed neither able to relay their anger in a polite way nor felt any compunction for being so rude to somebody in authority was striking. In the 1920s, it was very possible to write a letter that was both polite and trenchant. Students (and many others) seem to have lost this ability to do this. Which is one of the reasons that many people from outside of the US think Americans are often simple-minded.
Quote from: jerseyjay on February 06, 2022, 04:03:52 PM
In my historical research, I read quite a bit of correspondence from the 1890s-1930s. This correspondence has its own protocol (I think it used to be taught in school) and people understood what it mean. It was couched in politeness, but people knew what it meant. ("At your earliest convenience" was always understood to mean, as soon as possible; "at your convenience" meant when it suited you.)
I wouldn't expect students today to understand this, any more than I would expect them to know that "cc" stands for "carbon copy," much less how to use a carbon copy.
I do think that a level of politeness is useful. Just last week I was included in an email exchange in which a student called the dean of students incompetent, stupid, and mean. I don't know the dean of students well enough to comment on this, but the fact that the student seemed neither able to relay their anger in a polite way nor felt any compunction for being so rude to somebody in authority was striking. In the 1920s, it was very possible to write a letter that was both polite and trenchant. Students (and many others) seem to have lost this ability to do this. Which is one of the reasons that many people from outside of the US think Americans are often simple-minded.
Around which decade(s) would you judge this style of "polite and trenchant" noticeably dropped off?
WRT 18yos, whom I do love teaching, a la 'sage on the stage', nonetheless I am like Gen. Zod: I do not take orders-- I give them. (Phrased tactfully, of course).
Quote from: jerseyjay on February 04, 2022, 11:33:06 AM
Quote from: downer on February 04, 2022, 10:42:13 AM
At a couple of schools I teach at, students often start out their messages with "I hope you are doing well." or they finish with "Thank you very much and have a great day." Maybe some email programs have auto-suggested sentences.
I try to quietly discourage such politeness. I emphasize my preference for keeping things simple.
I have to say I don't understand this logic.
"Such politeness" in this case means a polite salutation and a polite conclusion. Having these makes the email less abrupt and, well, polite. An email that gets straight to the point is rude without some form of greeting. Rather than simple, I would say it is simple-minded. I would never write a colleague without a polite opening and conclusion, and I would be ill-disposed to anybody who wrote to me without such. (Of course, in an email chain, such politeness tends to cease in the back and forth, bur for an initial email, it seems useful.)
In Latin America, I was taught that it is rude to actually get to the point in less than two or three paragraphs of fluff. That is both obsolete and too much. But without some politeness, an email is rude.
Yeah, I guess I tend to only dispense with this stuff when I'm granting a request. If a student asks me for an extension, I might just write "sure, that's fine." I guess it feels like because I'm granting the request, I don't need to worry about coming off as rude or abrupt. The same response when a student said they couldn't come to class because they were sick would feel dismissive.
I try to model correct professional communications, which includes a salutation, closing signature, and use of standard English spelling and grammar in the main body. One of my objections to my school sending email in my name (see posts last fall about the school sending all students email in my name after I filled out the required early evaluation form...) was that it did not have this professional format. Particularly in this day of text-speak, I think it is important for students to see examples of how they will need to communicate when they get out "into the real world."
Quote from: Caracal on February 07, 2022, 04:44:24 AM
Yeah, I guess I tend to only dispense with this stuff when I'm granting a request. If a student asks me for an extension, I might just write "sure, that's fine." I guess it feels like because I'm granting the request, I don't need to worry about coming off as rude or abrupt. The same response when a student said they couldn't come to class because they were sick would feel dismissive.
I will also dispense with it when we are engaging in a conversation via email -- this happens quite a bit when students email me asking for help on a problem and I don't want to just tell them the answer. If it's the 2nd, 3rd, etc. email in the same conversation within a few hours span it seems redundant.
Quote from: kiana on February 07, 2022, 06:20:37 AM
Quote from: Caracal on February 07, 2022, 04:44:24 AM
Yeah, I guess I tend to only dispense with this stuff when I'm granting a request. If a student asks me for an extension, I might just write "sure, that's fine." I guess it feels like because I'm granting the request, I don't need to worry about coming off as rude or abrupt. The same response when a student said they couldn't come to class because they were sick would feel dismissive.
I will also dispense with it when we are engaging in a conversation via email -- this happens quite a bit when students email me asking for help on a problem and I don't want to just tell them the answer. If it's the 2nd, 3rd, etc. email in the same conversation within a few hours span it seems redundant.
Yes, just like we don't great each other repeatedly within a conversation it would be odd to do so in a string of emails that continue a conversation.
Students sometimes go too formal as well in odd ways-- I had one student who started every email by saying "Hi, this is X from your Y class" even though after months I clearly knew who he was.
Quote from: Puget on February 07, 2022, 06:44:42 AM
Yes, just like we don't great each other repeatedly within a conversation it would be odd to do so in a string of emails that continue a conversation.
Students sometimes go too formal as well in odd ways-- I had one student who started every email by saying "Hi, this is X from your Y class" even though after months I clearly knew who he was.
Given the number of students across all classes, I like to have that class reference in the original email from them. Given that approximately a 10th of my students are named "Taylor" and that I've got at least one Katelyn in every class, it's helpful to be reminded which section.
But is there a new trend in asking for PDFs of the readings? I keep getting "the reading isn't in our textbook, can you post it to Blackboard?" The first clause is demonstrably false, so the request won't ever be granted. Is this some sort of grift to avoid buying the textbook?
In a string of emails there is often a decreasing formality. But in a doubt more formality is better than less. (Also, I was taught that it is usually the person of more authority who needs to initiate this, not the person in less authority, although this might be a reflection of trying to navigate the protocols of how to tutear in Latin America.
I do prefer students to say what class they are in, even if I already know. Partially because this is better than the alternative, which is that students do not tell me their name or course, or just say they are in my history course. I also have many students with similar names, including last names. I also have several students who have taken--or are taking--several classes with me and it is nice to know what class they are referring to.
I prefer when students tell me who they are, which class they are taking, and the student ID number. I have 2 students with the EXACT same name taking lab on the same day (thankfully in different sections).
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 07, 2022, 09:53:34 AM
I prefer when students tell me who they are, which class they are taking, and the student ID number. I have 2 students with the EXACT same name taking lab on the same day (thankfully in different sections).
It can happen, all right. I have first and last names that are both very common, and have been involved in minor confusions created by myself and somebody else having the same name. And one fairly serious confusion caused when trying to renew my driver's license, and having to prove I was not somebody with the same name
and date of birth who compiled a truly disastrous driving record in another state and then apparently vanished. I had to get a copy of my birth certificate and everything.
Quote from: RatGuy on February 07, 2022, 07:08:00 AM
Quote from: Puget on February 07, 2022, 06:44:42 AM
Yes, just like we don't great each other repeatedly within a conversation it would be odd to do so in a string of emails that continue a conversation.
Students sometimes go too formal as well in odd ways-- I had one student who started every email by saying "Hi, this is X from your Y class" even though after months I clearly knew who he was.
Given the number of students across all classes, I like to have that class reference in the original email from them. Given that approximately a 10th of my students are named "Taylor" and that I've got at least one Katelyn in every class, it's helpful to be reminded which section.
But is there a new trend in asking for PDFs of the readings? I keep getting "the reading isn't in our textbook, can you post it to Blackboard?" The first clause is demonstrably false, so the request won't ever be granted. Is this some sort of grift to avoid buying the textbook?
In most cases I'd agree, but this particular student was a frequent flier-- monopolizing large chunks of my office hours weekly and emailing me often, so it was just funny that he explained who he was in every single email. It was also on par with a pattern of other problems understanding social communication.
Some better-off school libraries that I know of have been supplying .pdfs of readings during the pandemic, but I think just the electronic file, they don't print them out.
I think the agreement is that they're supposed to be destroyed after the course to avoid issues with copyright, but of course, who knows if that is done.
Larger public libraries used to occasionally do this for ILL requests, also; if the students figure out that a public library doesn't have a book but can fill out the ILL form on line, they might be able to get it that way (but I wouldn't, of course, tell them that except in extreme situations...)
M.
Quote from: Puget on February 07, 2022, 11:21:34 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on February 07, 2022, 07:08:00 AM
Quote from: Puget on February 07, 2022, 06:44:42 AM
Yes, just like we don't great each other repeatedly within a conversation it would be odd to do so in a string of emails that continue a conversation.
Students sometimes go too formal as well in odd ways-- I had one student who started every email by saying "Hi, this is X from your Y class" even though after months I clearly knew who he was.
Given the number of students across all classes, I like to have that class reference in the original email from them. Given that approximately a 10th of my students are named "Taylor" and that I've got at least one Katelyn in every class, it's helpful to be reminded which section.
But is there a new trend in asking for PDFs of the readings? I keep getting "the reading isn't in our textbook, can you post it to Blackboard?" The first clause is demonstrably false, so the request won't ever be granted. Is this some sort of grift to avoid buying the textbook?
In most cases I'd agree, but this particular student was a frequent flier-- monopolizing large chunks of my office hours weekly and emailing me often, so it was just funny that he explained who he was in every single email. It was also on par with a pattern of other problems understanding social communication.
I can understand someone sticking to a rule like "Identify yourself clearly when sending an email to your professor." even
if they suspect it might be unnecessary in a specific case.
I've been called out for things like that.
If social communication isn't one of your particular strengths, relying on your own judgment can seem dicey.
Not identifying yourself when you should have is likely to cause more annoyance than identifying yourself unnecessarily.
Student: I've got a family obligation tomorrow at class time that I've been trying to get out of....I'd be happy to schedule a meeting after 5 pm any day next week, if you...
Me: Your family knows you are a college student, don't they?
Stu: "I'm going to miss today's lab, and want to know what I need to do so that this won't be included in my final grade."
(Not "How do I make this up?", but "How do I make it go away?", or at least that's how I read it.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 11, 2022, 05:08:44 AM
Stu: "I'm going to miss today's lab, and want to know what I need to do so that this won't be included in my final grade."
(Not "How do I make this up?", but "How do I make it go away?", or at least that's how I read it.)
In my experience this kind of communication from a student is often accompanied by 'I'm very sorry, but I won't be attending the lab.' As though their non-attendance is going to be a problem for you, the instructor, instead of for them.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 11, 2022, 05:08:44 AM
Stu: "I'm going to miss today's lab, and want to know what I need to do so that this won't be included in my final grade."
(Not "How do I make this up?", but "How do I make it go away?", or at least that's how I read it.)
That's why I have a clear policy on what to do if you miss class. Either ask permission in advance to attend another section, provide proof of an emergency, or earn a zero. Their choice of how to proceed.
"Life is full of choices. Choices have consequences. Choose wisely."
Ugh. Got one of my least favorite whiney emails today in one of the classes I co-teach, which included:
I'm a 4.0 student (1)
I work so hard in this class (2)
Can I have extra credit? (3)
What I would like to say:
1--not in this class
2--you have a better chance of convincing me that you "work so hard in this class" if you do not send me 5 paragraph emails during my co-instructors lecture
3. I am happy to assign you some extra (ungraded) practice problems to help you learn the material. However, if what you are asking for is an easy assignment to "make up" points, the answer is, as always, no.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on February 14, 2022, 06:57:29 AM
Ugh. Got one of my least favorite whiney emails today in one of the classes I co-teach, which included:
I'm a 4.0 student (1)
I work so hard in this class (2)
Can I have extra credit? (3)
What I would like to say:
1--not in this class
2--you have a better chance of convincing me that you "work so hard in this class" if you do not send me 5 paragraph emails during my co-instructors lecture
3. I am happy to assign you some extra (ungraded) practice problems to help you learn the material. However, if what you are asking for is an easy assignment to "make up" points, the answer is, as always, no.
I've started using some version of "Unfortunately, it wouldn't be fair or equitable to allow students to get extra credit. I'd be happy to discuss how to improve in the future.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on February 14, 2022, 06:57:29 AM
Ugh. Got one of my least favorite whiney emails today in one of the classes I co-teach, which included:
I'm a 4.0 student (1)
I work so hard in this class (2)
Either one of these statements is a red-flag to me.
For my students, only very rarely will a student claiming they're "4.0" actually have a 4.0, or anywhere near a 4.0. Quite the reverse. Most of the "I'm 4.0" students I've discovered to be either currently on academic probation, retaking classes they've failed, and/or otherwise have between the 2.0 and 3.0 GPA range.
Straight-A students don't usually brag.
The "working hard" excuse I find to be bogus maybe 80-90% of the time. I've got a checklist of measurable metrics that I'll review with a student to evaluate their work activity. Like, show my your textbook so I can see what you've highlighted in it. Or, show me your study guide that all students are required to construct for each exam. Or, show me your completed homework. Or, tell me when you used my office hours. Rarely do the students claiming to "work hard" fulfill most of those metrics. Heck, over half of these students turn out having done very little "working hard", usually much less than the "average" student.
My response to these whiney, bogus emails is usually the same.
"I am available for help during office hours. Please bring your textbook, class notes, and course syllabus with you."And then I never hear back from then again.
Quote from: Aster on February 14, 2022, 09:10:20 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on February 14, 2022, 06:57:29 AM
Ugh. Got one of my least favorite whiney emails today in one of the classes I co-teach, which included:
I'm a 4.0 student (1)
I work so hard in this class (2)
Either one of these statements is a red-flag to me.
For my students, only very rarely will a student claiming they're "4.0" actually have a 4.0, or anywhere near a 4.0. Quite the reverse. Most of the "I'm 4.0" students I've discovered to be either currently on academic probation, retaking classes they've failed, and/or otherwise have between the 2.0 and 3.0 GPA range.
Straight-A students don't usually brag.
Straight-A students who lose the straight A usually also see it as a personal failure on their part, not as something to be weaseled out of. Or anyway that used to be the case. Maybe it has changed.
I think they see it as a moral judgment that you have found them to be a "bad person", rather than an indication that they have not sufficiently mastered the concepts & content.
Quote from: apl68 on February 14, 2022, 09:44:58 AM
Quote from: Aster on February 14, 2022, 09:10:20 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on February 14, 2022, 06:57:29 AM
Ugh. Got one of my least favorite whiney emails today in one of the classes I co-teach, which included:
I'm a 4.0 student (1)
I work so hard in this class (2)
Either one of these statements is a red-flag to me.
For my students, only very rarely will a student claiming they're "4.0" actually have a 4.0, or anywhere near a 4.0. Quite the reverse. Most of the "I'm 4.0" students I've discovered to be either currently on academic probation, retaking classes they've failed, and/or otherwise have between the 2.0 and 3.0 GPA range.
Straight-A students don't usually brag.
Straight-A students who lose the straight A usually also see it as a personal failure on their part, not as something to be weaseled out of. Or anyway that used to be the case. Maybe it has changed.
No, it hasn't changed. Not that I've seen, anyways. My straight-A students are polite and reserved. If my straight-A students ask me for help, they ask for help on lesson topics. They ask for clarification on exam responses. What they *don't do* is send whiney, non-specific emails. They don't usually ask for extra credit either. Maybe at the end of the term for razor-thin borderline grades, but that's it.
And also, the straight-A students tend to be the *comfortingly strong* straight-A students. Their academic performance is usually good enough to keep their final letter grades well clear of B-grade territory. If I get an actual straight-A student asking for help, it's someone shooting with a 95% or higher in the course who's just obsessing about the two questions that they got wrong on a 50-question exam. They want emotional or professional closure, ha ha. Or heck, half the time I find that it's *me* that is the problem, and I need to improve the exam question.
Quote from: Aster on February 14, 2022, 10:50:50 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 14, 2022, 09:44:58 AM
Quote from: Aster on February 14, 2022, 09:10:20 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on February 14, 2022, 06:57:29 AM
Ugh. Got one of my least favorite whiney emails today in one of the classes I co-teach, which included:
I'm a 4.0 student (1)
I work so hard in this class (2)
Either one of these statements is a red-flag to me.
For my students, only very rarely will a student claiming they're "4.0" actually have a 4.0, or anywhere near a 4.0. Quite the reverse. Most of the "I'm 4.0" students I've discovered to be either currently on academic probation, retaking classes they've failed, and/or otherwise have between the 2.0 and 3.0 GPA range.
Straight-A students don't usually brag.
Straight-A students who lose the straight A usually also see it as a personal failure on their part, not as something to be weaseled out of. Or anyway that used to be the case. Maybe it has changed.
No, it hasn't changed. Not that I've seen, anyways. My straight-A students are polite and reserved. If my straight-A students ask me for help, they ask for help on lesson topics. They ask for clarification on exam responses. What they *don't do* is send whiney, non-specific emails. They don't usually ask for extra credit either. Maybe at the end of the term for razor-thin borderline grades, but that's it.
And also, the straight-A students tend to be the *comfortingly strong* straight-A students. Their academic performance is usually good enough to keep their final letter grades well clear of B-grade territory. If I get an actual straight-A student asking for help, it's someone shooting with a 95% or higher in the course who's just obsessing about the two questions that they got wrong on a 50-question exam. They want emotional or professional closure, ha ha. Or heck, half the time I find that it's *me* that is the problem, and I need to improve the exam question.
I think this really depends on your student population. I get a lot of "I'm a straight A student and pre-med and this B is going to ruin my whole life!". The first non-A grade for a lot of our students comes as a real shock. This is what happens when you put all the straight A high school kids together and they discover they can't all still be top of the class.
A student failed to show up for the midterm exam this morning. She later sent an email which began
"I'm sorry to have stood you up on Valentine's Day."
I met with my whiney email student after class. They wanted me to regrade their assignment because they felt I had graded too harshly. When I did not agree, there was again the request for extra credit. I did not agree to that either. This class is the most math-driven course in our program, so (like Puget's pre-med example below), it is the class where students are most likely not to earn an A, even if they are actually "4.0 students" so far.
The most annoying thing is that this is a graduate course. Every year I tell my grad students that no one cares about your graduate GPA. You are expected to pass your classes (A or B level), but no one cares (or at least should care) if you have a 4.0 in grad school (in my opinion). They don't believe me, and I am often the crusher of dreams.
Quote from: RatGuy on February 14, 2022, 11:38:05 AM
A student failed to show up for the midterm exam this morning. She later sent an email which began
"I'm sorry to have stood you up on Valentine's Day."
This made me smile. I might be a little forgiving due solely to the amusement factor.
Quote from: RatGuy on February 14, 2022, 11:38:05 AM
A student failed to show up for the midterm exam this morning. She later sent an email which began
"I'm sorry to have stood you up on Valentine's Day."
Like!
Chuckle....
M.
Quote from: Puget on February 14, 2022, 11:13:47 AM
Quote from: Aster on February 14, 2022, 10:50:50 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 14, 2022, 09:44:58 AM
Quote from: Aster on February 14, 2022, 09:10:20 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on February 14, 2022, 06:57:29 AM
Ugh. Got one of my least favorite whiney emails today in one of the classes I co-teach, which included:
I'm a 4.0 student (1)
I work so hard in this class (2)
Either one of these statements is a red-flag to me.
For my students, only very rarely will a student claiming they're "4.0" actually have a 4.0, or anywhere near a 4.0. Quite the reverse. Most of the "I'm 4.0" students I've discovered to be either currently on academic probation, retaking classes they've failed, and/or otherwise have between the 2.0 and 3.0 GPA range.
Straight-A students don't usually brag.
Straight-A students who lose the straight A usually also see it as a personal failure on their part, not as something to be weaseled out of. Or anyway that used to be the case. Maybe it has changed.
No, it hasn't changed. Not that I've seen, anyways. My straight-A students are polite and reserved. If my straight-A students ask me for help, they ask for help on lesson topics. They ask for clarification on exam responses. What they *don't do* is send whiney, non-specific emails. They don't usually ask for extra credit either. Maybe at the end of the term for razor-thin borderline grades, but that's it.
And also, the straight-A students tend to be the *comfortingly strong* straight-A students. Their academic performance is usually good enough to keep their final letter grades well clear of B-grade territory. If I get an actual straight-A student asking for help, it's someone shooting with a 95% or higher in the course who's just obsessing about the two questions that they got wrong on a 50-question exam. They want emotional or professional closure, ha ha. Or heck, half the time I find that it's *me* that is the problem, and I need to improve the exam question.
I think this really depends on your student population. I get a lot of "I'm a straight A student and pre-med and this B is going to ruin my whole life!". The first non-A grade for a lot of our students comes as a real shock. This is what happens when you put all the straight A high school kids together and they discover they can't all still be top of the class.
We get some of those too. It's even worse with the freshman class who are coming out of 2 years of Pandemic high school. Lots of them are shocked that they don't just get 100% for answering all of the worksheet questions, as if correctness & completeness are just optional.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 14, 2022, 12:40:21 PM
We get some of those too. It's even worse with the freshman class who are coming out of 2 years of Pandemic high school. Lots of them are shocked that they don't just get 100% for answering all of the worksheet questions, as if correctness & completeness are just optional.
Yep.
Last semester I had one who would race through the classwork, write a random number by each question (whether or not the answer was numerical), and then get up and turn it in and leave. Unsurprisingly, their score on each test was in the low single digits.
Got this one today:
Quote
Hi [the_genetcist],
I did really bad on my midterm and I'm really concerned about my grade. Is it okay if I retake it ?
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 14, 2022, 03:47:43 PM
Got this one today:
Quote
Hi [the_genetcist],
I did really bad on my midterm and I'm really concerned about my grade. Is it okay if I retake it ?
Ha ha ha!
I've got one.
Stu just emailed me and asked if it's possible to pass with a "C" in the course. Hmm, let's see. You haven't turned in ANYTHING at all this semester and we're over 1/4 of the way through. If you get a 100% on the rest of the assignments, then you can scrape by with a "C." Is this likely to happen? Probably not- especially since the student couldn't figure out the course grade and had to ask me!
That one always weirds me out a little. It's pretty simple math, especially if you brute force it with guesstimate grades instead of figuring out by formula what you'd need to pass. That's why we give them each grade's weight. It's not like it's a proprietary algorithm.
Quote from: kiana on February 14, 2022, 01:52:48 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 14, 2022, 12:40:21 PM
We get some of those too. It's even worse with the freshman class who are coming out of 2 years of Pandemic high school. Lots of them are shocked that they don't just get 100% for answering all of the worksheet questions, as if correctness & completeness are just optional.
Yep.
Last semester I had one who would race through the classwork, write a random number by each question (whether or not the answer was numerical), and then get up and turn it in and leave. Unsurprisingly, their score on each test was in the low single digits.
Blanket passing of high school students due to the pandemic isn't helping anybody much in the long run.
Quote from: apl68 on February 15, 2022, 07:22:16 AM
Quote from: kiana on February 14, 2022, 01:52:48 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 14, 2022, 12:40:21 PM
We get some of those too. It's even worse with the freshman class who are coming out of 2 years of Pandemic high school. Lots of them are shocked that they don't just get 100% for answering all of the worksheet questions, as if correctness & completeness are just optional.
Yep.
Last semester I had one who would race through the classwork, write a random number by each question (whether or not the answer was numerical), and then get up and turn it in and leave. Unsurprisingly, their score on each test was in the low single digits.
Blanket passing of high school students due to the pandemic isn't helping anybody much in the long run.
As a general principle, saying "Since Group X is going to have real trouble meeting criterion Y, let's just waive criterion Y for them" is dumb. (Unless criterion Y had no real value to begin with. In that case, get rid of it, don't just waive it.)
Quote from: apl68 on February 15, 2022, 07:22:16 AM
Quote from: kiana on February 14, 2022, 01:52:48 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 14, 2022, 12:40:21 PM
We get some of those too. It's even worse with the freshman class who are coming out of 2 years of Pandemic high school. Lots of them are shocked that they don't just get 100% for answering all of the worksheet questions, as if correctness & completeness are just optional.
Yep.
Last semester I had one who would race through the classwork, write a random number by each question (whether or not the answer was numerical), and then get up and turn it in and leave. Unsurprisingly, their score on each test was in the low single digits.
Blanket passing of high school students due to the pandemic isn't helping anybody much in the long run.
And it creates & reinforces the idea that they don't have to meet any standards ever. I'm seeing a huge increase in problems that used to be rare. They are shocked that we are serious about things like attendance, due dates, and not giving full points for minimal contribution. The students earning As are mostly the same as usual, but it's the folks in the B and lower range that are having a really hard time adjusting.
I think the issue with grade calculation is the tendency of HS teachers to assign lots of "catch up" assignments at the end of the semester to get students to the finish line. The grade weighting and breakdown cam also be much more opaque in HS than it is in college. I don't remember ever being told how much any one test was weighted in HS, even the final exam.
As we head toward midterms, the student anxiety is increasing. I've received more than one of these:
Student email: When is [assignment] due? The due date on the LMS is [date] at [time]. So, I'm just confirming. Is that when the assignment is due?
They don't appear to be asking for extensions, just wanting me to confirm due dates.
From a student who has been absent from their in-person classes the last few weeks:
QuoteI might be developing osgood schlatters, so it is really hard to walk today due to the pain.
Student, if you can't walk GO TO THE DOCTOR. Also, if it really is "growing pains" they will tell you to take ibuprofen, ice your knee, and suck it up.
Student: Dear professor, I'm sorry I missed class last week. Unfortunately, I will have to miss again today as I need to go home and renew my license before it expires. Is there anything I should be working on in the meantime?
Me: Yes. Getting yourself to class.
Stu who "really can't be in danger of failing" has not only missed at least four assignments but also waits until the last minute to upload assignments. Stu, read the frxxxing modules instead of sending pleading emails. The due date for the assignment that prompted the flurry of emails is listed in the two modules preceding the assignment, and in four places in the module leading up to the assignment.
From the trenches: an email from a graduate applicant "worried and curious" about their status. Sent to several different people in my department in *early February*. With follow-up reminders. While we try to make offers of admission in a timely manner, it does take time to read the applications!
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 18, 2022, 05:52:32 AM
Stu who "really can't be in danger of failing" ....
Dream response: "Stu, not only CAN you be, but you ARE."
Then again, my response to students saying that failure is not an option is, "Failure is ALWAYS an option. It might be one you'd like to avoid, but...."
Quote from: arcturus on February 19, 2022, 05:04:35 PM
From the trenches: an email from a graduate applicant "worried and curious" about their status. Sent to several different people in my department in *early February*. With follow-up reminders. While we try to make offers of admission in a timely manner, it does take time to read the applications!
I understand this! I have been assigned to advise an international student who had to apply quite early to meet international student deadlines. Before applying, I met with hu two different times for an hour on video chat. Once admitted, hu reached out to me with lengthy emails about preparing for school, changing banks, and other random things, and then asked to move admission to summer. I contacted international admissions and got approval for the department to submit this request. Then the student asked if I could submit hu's progress form (which is required after a student enrolls in three courses in the masters, and includes the course plan and committee members). I told the student to wait until hu is enrolled before we submit paperwork on hu's progress! Ayiyi!
Quote from: darkstarrynight on February 22, 2022, 08:28:06 AM
I have been assigned to advise an international student who had to apply quite early to meet international student deadlines. Before applying, I met with hu two different times for an hour on video chat. Once admitted, hu reached out to me with lengthy emails about preparing for school, changing banks, and other random things, and then asked to move admission to summer.
I have probably been this student, though I think I was emailing the dept. secretary rather than my advisor. Couldn't get a bank account (for an international wire) in Grad School Country without an address, and couldn't get accommodation without paying up front, so ended up putting accommodation and deposit on a parent's credit card (my limits weren't high enough). I was on the plane when the bank cancelled the payment because it was "unusual activity," so I landed in a foreign country where I knew absolutely no one to find I also had nowhere to live. All that to say: is there another grad student from this student's home country who could help the student know what steps and potential pitfalls to expect?
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on February 22, 2022, 01:29:29 PM
Quote from: darkstarrynight on February 22, 2022, 08:28:06 AM
I have been assigned to advise an international student who had to apply quite early to meet international student deadlines. Before applying, I met with hu two different times for an hour on video chat. Once admitted, hu reached out to me with lengthy emails about preparing for school, changing banks, and other random things, and then asked to move admission to summer.
I have probably been this student, though I think I was emailing the dept. secretary rather than my advisor. Couldn't get a bank account (for an international wire) in Grad School Country without an address, and couldn't get accommodation without paying up front, so ended up putting accommodation and deposit on a parent's credit card (my limits weren't high enough). I was on the plane when the bank cancelled the payment because it was "unusual activity," so I landed in a foreign country where I knew absolutely no one to find I also had nowhere to live. All that to say: is there another grad student from this student's home country who could help the student know what steps and potential pitfalls to expect?
AR.
That is fair. The lengthy email about banks did not have a question in it for me to figure out so I did not address it. The situation is unique in that the student is not coming to study physically because our program is 100% online. That is why it was easy to change admit terms without any legal issue.
I would hope that any school that is accepting international students has somebody who is able to help (or at least advise them) on such mundane but important stuff.
Several decades ago I went to work on my PhD in Britain. The banking situation was actually one of the hardest challenges I had to surmount. It took what seemed like forever to be able to open a bank account, because I had no credit history in Britain, and banks would not give checking accounts to people without credit histories because they much of their money extending overdrafts to students. I had a student job, but I couldn't cash my paychecks, even at the bank the check was drawn on, because evidently "cashing" checks was obsolete in Britain at this time.
Finally it turned out that one of the high street banks had a deal with the student union to allow students free checking accounts. Even so, when I deposited a $10,000 cashier's check--representing most of my life's saving--into the bank, the bank still managed to misplace it for several weeks. The end result was that I was almost broke in one of the most expensive cities in the world. And this is in a country where the language is (more or less) my native tongue.
Some time later, when I got a job in Latin America and tried to open a bank account, they wanted to reject my passport because (at the time) the US State Department let you wear glasses in your passport photo while in this country, glasses were not allowed in official photos. My point is that getting a bank account (and other things like healthcare, transport, accommodations, visa requirements, etc. ) do not fit into the standard job of an academic advisor, but are nevertheless quite important. Hopefully there is somebody whom you can direct them to.
I had a PhD student who needed a driver's license, and in our country she needs a signature from someone who has a driver's license already. She asked us, her advisors, for that signature.
Quote from: jerseyjay on February 23, 2022, 04:43:52 AM
My point is that getting a bank account (and other things like healthcare, transport, accommodations, visa requirements, etc. ) do not fit into the standard job of an academic advisor, but are nevertheless quite important. Hopefully there is somebody whom you can direct them to.
Stuff like this happens pretty often in the library world. We're not doctors, tax or legal experts, social workers, etc., but we get asked for help on all of these and more. People in need reach out to whoever they have to reach out to. For students without many other local connections, that can be their prof.
Your story about the mix-ups you experienced as an international grad student remind me of why I've never been eager to travel overseas. I think I'd be worrying about this sort of stuff and more all the time.
Quote from: apl68 on February 23, 2022, 06:45:43 AM
Quote from: jerseyjay on February 23, 2022, 04:43:52 AM
My point is that getting a bank account (and other things like healthcare, transport, accommodations, visa requirements, etc. ) do not fit into the standard job of an academic advisor, but are nevertheless quite important. Hopefully there is somebody whom you can direct them to.
Stuff like this happens pretty often in the library world. We're not doctors, tax or legal experts, social workers, etc., but we get asked for help on all of these and more. People in need reach out to whoever they have to reach out to. For students without many other local connections, that can be their prof.
Your story about the mix-ups you experienced as an international grad student remind me of why I've never been eager to travel overseas. I think I'd be worrying about this sort of stuff and more all the time.
Oh, but you learn so much about local culture...
;--》
M.
QuoteHope you are well! I wanted to let you know that I can't make it to [the basketweaving class] or the final during the week of March 7th. I will be away March 7th-12th for basketball championships in Vegas. I know our final exam is in class that Friday. Would I be able to make up the [presentation] and the exam the following week? There is no way for me to do either in advance.
Please let me know what you think.
What I think is that this is BONKERS. And that I need proof of travel for you to earn an Incomplete.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 23, 2022, 10:00:31 AM
QuoteHope you are well! I wanted to let you know that I can't make it to [the basketweaving class] or the final during the week of March 7th. I will be away March 7th-12th for basketball championships in Vegas. I know our final exam is in class that Friday. Would I be able to make up the [presentation] and the exam the following week? There is no way for me to do either in advance.
Please let me know what you think.
What I think is that this is BONKERS. And that I need proof of travel for you to earn an Incomplete.
Is the student actually playing in the basketball championships? Does the student get to decide they cannot submit things in advance? I would think that your athletic department (if this student is indeed a basketball player) would have policies for this that would not include the student sending an email ending "what do you think?"
Quote from: OneMoreYear on February 23, 2022, 11:35:53 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 23, 2022, 10:00:31 AM
QuoteHope you are well! I wanted to let you know that I can't make it to [the basketweaving class] or the final during the week of March 7th. I will be away March 7th-12th for basketball championships in Vegas. I know our final exam is in class that Friday. Would I be able to make up the [presentation] and the exam the following week? There is no way for me to do either in advance.
Please let me know what you think.
What I think is that this is BONKERS. And that I need proof of travel for you to earn an Incomplete.
Is the student actually playing in the basketball championships? Does the student get to decide they cannot submit things in advance? I would think that your athletic department (if this student is indeed a basketball player) would have policies for this that would not include the student sending an email ending "what do you think?"
The student is a basketball player, but hasn't shown any evidence they they are actually participating in the games.
The policy is that the student is supposed to ask faculty in advance how to complete any missed classes/assignments/etc. This student has been blissfully clueless that missing class =/= being excused from learning the material.
Hey Professor I know you don't accept late work but I was wondering can I go back and do the assignments I haven't done?
So, you want me to do what you just said yourself I don't do? Um. . . . ?
My actual response was,
I think you've answered your own question: I don't read or grade late submissions. Of course, going back and answering the questions (and maybe having the Writing Center look over your work with you for their suggestions, if you'd like) wouldn't be a bad idea.
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 23, 2022, 01:00:00 PM
Hey Professor I know you don't accept late work but I was wondering can I go back and do the assignments I haven't done?
So, you want me to do what you just said yourself I don't do? Um. . . . ?
My actual response was,
I think you've answered your own question: I don't read or grade late submissions. Of course, going back and answering the questions (and maybe having the Writing Center look over your work with you for their suggestions, if you'd like) wouldn't be a bad idea.
That was a very nice and neutral way to put it. :)
QuoteI hope this message finds you well! I was looking over the questions that I got wrong and wanted to talk to you because I think there may be a possibility that I filled out my bubble sheet wrong that would have caused me to miss a few questions. I do remember on test day that I was confused as to which column to fill out since there were 4 but I just filled out the one all the way to the left since I thought everyone was doing that and figured it would not have made too much of a difference (I had version B though so maybe I was supposed to fill out the second bubble column). Anyways, the questions that I was looking through that stuck out to me were questions: 5, 9, 11, 13, and 15. I have looked over the other incorrect questions and understand that I did indeed get those questions wrong but for these 5 questions I reviewed them and I want to know why I missed these questions since I still believe that the answers that I picked are correct. I may be wrong about all this and I apologize for the trouble if I am, but I just wanted to bring this concern up with you to hear your clarification. Is it possible for us to meet over Zoom tomorrow to discuss this? If so, what time would work best for you?
Very polite, but no you did not fill out the bubble sheet wrong.
And you got all of those questions wrong.
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 21, 2022, 10:38:49 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 18, 2022, 05:52:32 AM
Stu who "really can't be in danger of failing" ....
Dream response: "Stu, not only CAN you be, but you ARE."
Then again, my response to students saying that failure is not an option is, "Failure is ALWAYS an option. It might be one you'd like to avoid, but...."
Yet another email from Stu who can't be in danger of failing with yet another sob story. Stu apparently hasn't bothered to read my comments (when will I learn not to be a softie) on how to submit the missed assignment with a certain percentage docked for a late submission. Needless to say, I bumped this one up the food chain.
I just got an email from a student saying that stu can't open pdfs. Um, how did you read the syllabus? Did you read the syllabus?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 25, 2022, 01:11:32 PM
I just got an email from a student saying that stu can't open pdfs. Um, how did you read the syllabus? Did you read the syllabus?
What's a syllabus?
<<ducks and runs>>
That *sounds* like a stupid question, but if asked by a 1st semester freshman, esp one from a 1st-generation college student family, it really isn't. Many if not most public hss, and for that matter many private ones, would not have trained their students, even graduating college-bound seniors, with anything resembling 'college 101 know-how'. Indeed, from my perspective as a person with extensive experience teaching both hss and college, I have long thought that most hss do a lousy job prepping their seniors for college. I once raised a thread on this issue, maybe 10 years ago, on the Chronicle fora. Maybe it is time to do it again...
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 26, 2022, 10:02:42 AM
What's a syllabus?
<<ducks and runs>>
To be honest, I am not really sure what the answer is.
When I was in college, the syllabus was usually two (and almost never more than four) pages. It had the the professor's contact information (including, sometimes, that new thing called email), a listing of the readings, and a breakdown of what we were doing each class session. There was also a description of how the grade was compiled.
Now, my syllabus tends to be ten to fifteen pages long and contains more legalese than a cell phone contract. It has information about what to do if you are disabled, a veteran, and whether a nuclear holocaust is a legitimate excuse to miss class. To be honest, I often forget all the stuff that is in my own syllabus, and I am pretty sure nobody in my class reads it. They seem to be designed more for the dean and perhaps the school's legal department.
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 27, 2022, 04:52:38 PM
That *sounds* like a stupid question, but if asked by a 1st semester freshman, esp one from a 1st-generation college student family, it really isn't. Many if not most public hss, and for that matter many private ones, would not have trained their students, even graduating college-bound seniors, with anything resembling 'college 101 know-how'. Indeed, from my perspective as a person with extensive experience teaching both hss and college, I have long thought that most hss do a lousy job prepping their seniors for college. I once raised a thread on this issue, maybe 10 years ago, on the Chronicle fora. Maybe it is time to do it again...
Well, in the United States, there is no requirement for high schools to prepare all students for college. High school educations are firstly designed as terminal endpoints for secondary education. You graduate, you're done, and you are now a functional adult that can enter the workforce.
But if you are a high school student with aspirations of succeeding at college, it is highly recommended that you place yourself into that high school's college-prep tier. That tier is where the vast majority of 4-year degree university students are sourced from.
The U.S. secondary school system works differently from that found in most other nations. We have a single-shop high school model, offering different tiers of learning that are somewhat organic to one another. Contrast that to other countries, where there are two kinds of high school equivalents right off the bat, the ones for the people going to university, and the ones for the people going to trade schools. Those students are pretty hard-locked into their career paths early on.
** aw nuts I just noticed the new thread spun off from this. Oopsies ***
Stu who emailed a PDF file instead of uploading a Word file on Canvas
Quote
I apologize for any inconvenience this causes with the peer review. Would you be able to reopen the assignment and maybe I could try again?
Stu, this isn't a matter of inconvenience. You would need a magic wand because a PDF file cannot be uploaded let alone read or commented on by your classmates. Channel Yoda--do or not do, there is no try.
Stu wants to make up the past three weeks of labs because stu didn't realize that stu didn't 'save' them. I see two incomplete labs, but the third was not even attempted. Sigh...
Oh, and stu also blamed the weather. Wtf?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 28, 2022, 07:31:46 AM
Stu wants to make up the past three weeks of labs because stu didn't realize that stu didn't 'save' them. I see two incomplete labs, but the third was not even attempted. Sigh...
Oh, and stu also blamed the weather. Wtf?
Regarding the weather....
Whether it was too hot or too cold, everyone knows that "physics" behaves differently in the extremes.
For historic reasons, my lab class has the final exam on the last Friday of classes. Why? I don't know, but it's a logistics nightmare for in-person since they only give a 50-minute time slot in a room that would barely fit all of the students.
Instead, I've made the exam online & give the students 8:00am-11:59pm to choose when to take it.
This is the 3rd email from students who apparently cannot tell time.
QuoteMy name is [student] and I am enrolled in [Basketweaving]. I wanted to ask if the final requires the whole 3 hours. I am worried because the final is on [day] from 8-AM -12PM. I have [other class] lecture at 9 AM and a [yet another class] discussion at 11 AM. Will there be a time conflict and if so, what should I do about it? Thank you,
QuoteDear [student],
Thank you for your email. The [Basketweaving] exam is available from 8:00am-11:59pm (one minute until midnight). Your choice of when during those 16 hours to take the exam. Once you start, you have 3 hours before the exam automatically submits.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 28, 2022, 11:39:56 AM
For historic reasons, my lab class has the final exam on the last Friday of classes. Why? I don't know, but it's a logistics nightmare for in-person since they only give a 50-minute time slot in a room that would barely fit all of the students.
Instead, I've made the exam online & give the students 8:00am-11:59pm to choose when to take it.
This is the 3rd email from students who apparently cannot tell time.
QuoteMy name is [student] and I am enrolled in [Basketweaving]. I wanted to ask if the final requires the whole 3 hours. I am worried because the final is on [day] from 8-AM -12PM. I have [other class] lecture at 9 AM and a [yet another class] discussion at 11 AM. Will there be a time conflict and if so, what should I do about it? Thank you,
QuoteDear [student],
Thank you for your email. The [Basketweaving] exam is available from 8:00am-11:59pm (one minute until midnight). Your choice of when during those 16 hours to take the exam. Once you start, you have 3 hours before the exam automatically submits.
Good Lord!
I just got one asking about stu's overall grade in the course. It is posted in numerical and text form. I told stu that the Midterm grade was already up. Apparently, stu didn't realize that the Midterm grade (not Midterm exam grade) is stu's overall grade.
I got one from a student asking:
1) what is their grade [check the online grade book!]
2) what do they need to earn to get an A? [see the syllabus]
3) can they get an A? [do the math!!]
Got an email from a student blaming me for not setting up the assignment due date correctly on canvas and that's why he did not remember to submit his assignment. I suppose publishing a course schedule from day 1 of the semester, which includes all due dates and also sending messages to all students to remind them of due dates did not work for this student. Next time, I will go knock on his door to remind him to submit his assignment. Jesus Christ... this student will be a young professional in a year from now... I feel sorry for whoever will try to hire him.
Quote from: research_prof on February 28, 2022, 04:03:54 PM
Got an email from a student blaming me for not setting up the assignment due date correctly on canvas and that's why he did not remember to submit his assignment. I suppose publishing a course schedule from day 1 of the semester, which includes all due dates and also sending messages to all students to remind them of due dates did not work for this student. Next time, I will go knock on his door to remind him to submit his assignment. Jesus Christ... this student will be a young professional in a year from now... I feel sorry for whoever will try to hire him.
What are the odds he remembers the date of his employment interview?
Got an email from a student who is surprised to be failing the course. Stu had C-D grades on labs and got a 20% on the Midterm Exam.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 01, 2022, 05:05:17 AM
Quote from: research_prof on February 28, 2022, 04:03:54 PM
Got an email from a student blaming me for not setting up the assignment due date correctly on canvas and that's why he did not remember to submit his assignment. I suppose publishing a course schedule from day 1 of the semester, which includes all due dates and also sending messages to all students to remind them of due dates did not work for this student. Next time, I will go knock on his door to remind him to submit his assignment. Jesus Christ... this student will be a young professional in a year from now... I feel sorry for whoever will try to hire him.
What are the odds he remembers the date of his employment interview?
I have no clue, but such sort of BS excuses will not take him very far in the tech industry.
Email from Stu who couldn't afford to fail the course:
Quote
OMG MY GOSH PROFESSOR I THOUGHT I SUBMITTED IT CAN I SUBMIT MY [assignment] OMG IM GOING TO CRY ITS LITERALLY DONE SITTING IN MY GOOGLE DOCS. i just woke up in a panic it's 6:56 am. i'm sorry professor i'm letting you down. i really want to do [professional major] and if I fail this class i won't be able to continue. i understand i haven't been the best student. i'm so sorry.
I'll probably let Stu upload hu's assignment as Stu did submit the required draft and also completed the peer-review. It's too early in the morning for any decisions on my part.
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 07, 2022, 04:16:40 AM
Email from Stu who couldn't afford to fail the course:
Quote
OMG MY GOSH PROFESSOR I THOUGHT I SUBMITTED IT CAN I SUBMIT MY [assignment] OMG IM GOING TO CRY ITS LITERALLY DONE SITTING IN MY GOOGLE DOCS. i just woke up in a panic it's 6:56 am. i'm sorry professor i'm letting you down. i really want to do [professional major] and if I fail this class i won't be able to continue. i understand i haven't been the best student. i'm so sorry.
I'll probably let Stu upload hu's assignment as Stu did submit the required draft and also completed the peer-review. It's too early in the morning for any decisions on my part.
I'd also point out to the student that they're letting themselves down, not you...
Quote from: sinenomine on March 07, 2022, 06:01:03 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 07, 2022, 04:16:40 AM
Email from Stu who couldn't afford to fail the course:
Quote
OMG MY GOSH PROFESSOR I THOUGHT I SUBMITTED IT CAN I SUBMIT MY [assignment] OMG IM GOING TO CRY ITS LITERALLY DONE SITTING IN MY GOOGLE DOCS. i just woke up in a panic it's 6:56 am. i'm sorry professor i'm letting you down. i really want to do [professional major] and if I fail this class i won't be able to continue. i understand i haven't been the best student. i'm so sorry.
I'll probably let Stu upload hu's assignment as Stu did submit the required draft and also completed the peer-review. It's too early in the morning for any decisions on my part.
I'd also point out to the student that they're letting themselves down, not you...
Stu has a history of missing deadlines because Stu "has a lot going on". Stu sent the assignment later this morning as an email attachment despite repeated announcements in the syllabus and course modules. Stu appears not to be aware of deadlines or even read my responses to previous emails with attachments.
Stu has already been given an early warning; time to send a second alert. Stu should not be in this particular major.
Students,
It is NORMAL to feel a bit nervous/sweaty/icky before giving a presentation. The best way to make that feeling be less awful is to give presentations (e.g. practice & exposure). Your in-class presentation has been in the syllabus since Day 1. The guidelines are thorough. The rubric is detailed. We want you to succeed! This is a non-competitive presentation to your peers about the thing you have been working on for weeks.
Stop round up any bit of discomfort/nerves to "trauma".
And, student who keeps begging for an "alternate assignment", no. You are repeating this class. You knew about the presentation when you failed the class last time. Your choice to not present last time is one of the reasons you failed the class, but not the only reason. The late assignments, missing assignments, & low exam scores also contributed. Giving the presentation was the only chance you had left to earn a passing grade.
It has begun. The quarterly "what can I do to make up for all of the stuff I didn't do" emails.
QuoteI hope this email finds you well. I am not doing so well in this class and it isn't because I don't know the material but because after every lab I failed to submit the online submission portion of the worksheet. I overlooked them completely and it is my fault for slacking on this portion. Consequently this has caused my grade to fall apart completely. Is there anything at all that can be done to bring my grade up even by just a little bit? Please, [Dr. Geneticist], I appreciate your kindest consideration. Please advise.
Respectfully,
[Forgetful student]
You forgot to mention that you also earned a shockingly low F on your midterm. In fact, I'm pretty sure you actually don't understand the material at all.
First, the good news! Nervous student decided to give their presentation and did very well.
The not-so-great news. More than 2/3 of the class hasn't started their final exam yet. I told them I would be available to answer their questions until X:00. It's now just past X:00. I've given them reminders in the exam study guide, over email, as an announcement in the LMS, and as a direct email to anyone who hadn't started 30 minutes before X:00.
Their exam is due by midnight. I am anticipating a lot of "But I have a question! Please Help Me!" emails arriving late tonight. I'm guessing they don't think I'm serious. As my Dad told me when I was a kid "getting home from work on Friday means it's the weekend!".
Happy weekend!
Student: Does 110 count for science and technology credit in the core curriculum?
Me: Yes (it says so right in the course description).
Student: I just asked two friends and Academic Advising told them 'no'. Here are the screenshots.
(So why'd you ask me?)
Me: *checks screenshots* Academic advising is telling your friends that 110 doesn't count as satisfying the requirement for the filmmaking program. I imagine they know what they're talking about (they definitely don't), but unless you're in that program, what they told your friends isn't relevant to you. Also, I'm not teaching the filmmaking-specific section of 110 (they buy a section of 110 every year, which runs for just two weeks in the summer--in other words, it does satisfy their requirement, but whatevs).
I also got another email from another student asking if 110 was really two weeks long, or if it ran from May-June, and whether it was 4.5 hours a day or 3 hours twice a week. In other words, they're confused about the filmmaking-specific section vs the general core curriculum section. And again, I don't teach the two-week course. What is going on?
They want to know if the summer 2 week version is less work than the regular version.
Sounds like my college.
We have a Business Math class (which doesn't transfer) and a Math for Business class (which does transfer).
We have a Social Media class which applies to our Broadcast Media Degree/Certificate, and a Social Media Marketing class which applies to our Marketing Degree/Certificate.
Students are always winding up in the wrong classes.
I think we should get rid of the Business Math class because it's pointless on many levels.
And the Marketing and Broadcast folks should loosen up and take either class because they are similar enough that both departments argued bitterly over who "owned" the topic and thus should get the FTES. This was their uneasy truce.
Quote from: mythbuster on March 13, 2022, 08:38:39 AM
They want to know if the summer 2 week version is less work than the regular version.
Yep! We offer a full YEAR of organic chemistry + labs over the summer.
Students are constantly thinking that 1 year in 10 weeks = less work/easy class
Like surely we can't be teaching them all of the content. Right?
Wrong!
It's WAY, WAY more work. They don't cut any content. The class is 6 hours a day, 5 days a week. Welcome to class! Your first exam is Thursday.
Unless you love chemistry, have no other obligations (no job, no kids, no long commute), and don't need extra time to process or practice this class will ruin you and your GPA.
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 13, 2022, 11:16:39 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on March 13, 2022, 08:38:39 AM
They want to know if the summer 2 week version is less work than the regular version.
Yep! We offer a full YEAR of organic chemistry + labs over the summer.
Students are constantly thinking that 1 year in 10 weeks = less work/easy class
Like surely we can't be teaching them all of the content. Right?
Wrong!
It's WAY, WAY more work. They don't cut any content. The class is 6 hours a day, 5 days a week. Welcome to class! Your first exam is Thursday.
Unless you love chemistry, have no other obligations (no job, no kids, no long commute), and don't need extra time to process or practice this class will ruin you and your GPA.
Because "easy" and "organic chemistry" always go together, don't they? I tell students that plan to take any chem class in the summer to not take anything else that term. I should begin my summer classes with this clip from "Jurassic Park" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjuROyn6d28).
Quote from: dr_evil on March 14, 2022, 02:19:49 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 13, 2022, 11:16:39 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on March 13, 2022, 08:38:39 AM
They want to know if the summer 2 week version is less work than the regular version.
Yep! We offer a full YEAR of organic chemistry + labs over the summer.
Students are constantly thinking that 1 year in 10 weeks = less work/easy class
Like surely we can't be teaching them all of the content. Right?
Wrong!
It's WAY, WAY more work. They don't cut any content. The class is 6 hours a day, 5 days a week. Welcome to class! Your first exam is Thursday.
Unless you love chemistry, have no other obligations (no job, no kids, no long commute), and don't need extra time to process or practice this class will ruin you and your GPA.
Because "easy" and "organic chemistry" always go together, don't they? I tell students that plan to take any chem class in the summer to not take anything else that term. I should begin my summer classes with this clip from "Jurassic Park" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjuROyn6d28).
I have advisees ask the same thing about taking stats over the summer. No honey, taking stats in 5 weeks will not make it easier. Honestly, we probably shouldn't even offer it in that format.
Received a message from Stu, who claims to have arrived to campus 20 minutes late and assumed that I would deny Stu entrance to the classroom to take an exam for being so late and decided not to show up until after the exam ended. I'm skeptical that this is common practice, but maybe I'm wrong.
Q: Do any of you bar students from taking an exam if they show up more than a few minutes late?
Quote from: Anon1787 on March 15, 2022, 01:06:24 AM
Q: Do any of you bar students from taking an exam if they show up more than a few minutes late?
Nope.
I have colleagues who do if someone has already left, but frankly I think that if they did get info passed to them from someone who left the exam it wouldn't be enough to make up for the time they lost, so I don't.
Quote from: kiana on March 15, 2022, 04:54:20 AM
Quote from: Anon1787 on March 15, 2022, 01:06:24 AM
Q: Do any of you bar students from taking an exam if they show up more than a few minutes late?
Nope.
I have colleagues who do if someone has already left, but frankly I think that if they did get info passed to them from someone who left the exam it wouldn't be enough to make up for the time they lost, so I don't.
For our final exams, the rules are that:
- Students writing an exam can't leave until at least an hour has passed.
- Students arriving up to 1/2 hour late will be admitted.
Those two rules mean that there's in principle no way anyone leaving would be able to pass information on to anyone still eligible to enter.
Quote from: Puget on March 14, 2022, 03:05:59 PM
Quote from: dr_evil on March 14, 2022, 02:19:49 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 13, 2022, 11:16:39 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on March 13, 2022, 08:38:39 AM
They want to know if the summer 2 week version is less work than the regular version.
Yep! We offer a full YEAR of organic chemistry + labs over the summer.
Students are constantly thinking that 1 year in 10 weeks = less work/easy class
Like surely we can't be teaching them all of the content. Right?
Wrong!
It's WAY, WAY more work. They don't cut any content. The class is 6 hours a day, 5 days a week. Welcome to class! Your first exam is Thursday.
Unless you love chemistry, have no other obligations (no job, no kids, no long commute), and don't need extra time to process or practice this class will ruin you and your GPA.
Because "easy" and "organic chemistry" always go together, don't they? I tell students that plan to take any chem class in the summer to not take anything else that term. I should begin my summer classes with this clip from "Jurassic Park" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjuROyn6d28).
I have advisees ask the same thing about taking stats over the summer. No honey, taking stats in 5 weeks will not make it easier. Honestly, we probably shouldn't even offer it in that format.
The arts have a consistent problem of new students thinking they'll be light, easy courses at any time, but the two years I taught liturgical arts courses in a two-week summer session at a local seminary, i got complaints like that as well.
I'd planned for the amount of work one does in a 13-week course, including the usual expectation of c. 80-100 slides, 5 dance videos, and 10 musical examples, as well as three theatrical scenes to be viewed in the library and read in class. There was also a final project.
Classes were 3 hours per day, and I went straight from class to the office to set up the slide trays and notes and prep for the next day, and told them I imagined they needed to do the same thing in terms of studying, and that I'd look forward to seeing them in the library after lunch, when I went in to set up the reserves for the day after that...
It was odd. For people who said they'd always been interested in the arts, no-one knew (either year) what the Iconoclastic Controversy was about or when it happened. They seemed to think it was fine to learn to appreciate the arts, but that critical analysis was beyond the pale, or that Scriptural and theological writings could be anything more than mildly supportive; no-one had read the second commandment, apparently, or paid attention to the level of detail in the construction notes for the Tabernacle and the First and Second Temples as examples of the significance of aesthetics in the life of faith.
They also couldn't believe I'd require something like Neibuhr's "Christ and Culture," supplemented with several other readings for each day, for theological reflection, or that I expected short written pieces on the odd days, with a mid-term quiz at the end of each week. They couldn't seem to understand how I thought theological texts had anything to do with the use of the arts in worship and the life of faith....(??), or expected them to ponder the same.
One person kept bringing printed-out coloring pages and crosswords from the Sunday School bulletins she used, and asking if we shouldn't be learning to do more of those instead...we did touch on them one day in discussion of how we would use what we had learned, but the course (which the dean's office had approved, so I wasn't off-base) really was supposed to be an exigent systematics offering, that was how it was being listed and credits assigned.
I allowed the final project to be written or a creative work, but the creative works had to be decently done, and I graded those as I would for a full course as well (and told them so at the outset). Some did some excellent work, so it wasn't an unrealistic expectation, a few were a bit underdone, and I graded those accordingly.
Much wailing and gnashing of teeth ensued; it didn't help that the pastoral counseling instructor across the hall had them all bringing fruit to share daily, just had a couple of well-known articles for class readings, and had them sitting out on the side of the hill for discussions of a very general sort (for all I could tell, passing by).
That school doesn't exist anymore, sadly; I enjoyed my work with the 2-3 students in each class offering who did their assignments and didn't whine, but overall it was disappointing, and I didn't propose the course after that.
M.
When I used to teach marketing I got the same complaints.
- Advertising - we'll just sit around and share our favorite ads on YouTube!
- Professional selling - just give them a discount!
Quote from: mamselle on March 15, 2022, 06:38:16 AM
The arts have a consistent problem of new students thinking they'll be light, easy courses at any time, but the two years I taught liturgical arts courses in a two-week summer session at a local seminary, i got complaints like that as well.
I'd planned for the amount of work one does in a 13-week course, including the usual expectation of c. 80-100 slides, 5 dance videos, and 10 musical examples, as well as three theatrical scenes to be viewed in the library and read in class. There was also a final project.
Requirements for things like this that have to be viewed or listened to at the library (back when that was a thing) make an awkward fit with the widespread student tendency to try to cram everything at the last minute. At my old job I was in charge of the Media Center portion of the library where AV reserves were kept for viewing and listening. It was a nightmare when art students were trying to cram their trays of slides, all on the same half-dozen projectors in the viewing room. All day long you'd have to deal with jams, misplaced slides, bulbs blowing, and projectors sometimes just packing up and having to be swapped out for spares. The room would get so hot you could feel the heat in the hall outside!
Meanwhile, Shakespeare class students were busily trying to cram their viewings of multiple productions of multiple plays on VHS tape. When not dealing with glitches in the slide viewing room, the AV staffer on duty would be constantly swapping out and rewinding tapes, trying not to get them mixed up and hoping that none of the VCRs ate one.
My favorite, though, is the prof who tried putting seven copies of a set of audio listenings on reserve, without checking to see whether we actually had that many players. We actually had three.
Quote from: Anon1787 on March 15, 2022, 01:06:24 AM
Received a message from Stu, who claims to have arrived to campus 20 minutes late and assumed that I would deny Stu entrance to the classroom to take an exam for being so late and decided not to show up until after the exam ended. I'm skeptical that this is common practice, but maybe I'm wrong.
Q: Do any of you bar students from taking an exam if they show up more than a few minutes late?
Nope. But all it takes is one prof who does.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 15, 2022, 09:41:42 AM
Quote from: Anon1787 on March 15, 2022, 01:06:24 AM
Received a message from Stu, who claims to have arrived to campus 20 minutes late and assumed that I would deny Stu entrance to the classroom to take an exam for being so late and decided not to show up until after the exam ended. I'm skeptical that this is common practice, but maybe I'm wrong.
Q: Do any of you bar students from taking an exam if they show up more than a few minutes late?
Nope. But all it takes is one prof who does.
I've never done this, either.
Quote from: apl68 on March 15, 2022, 08:15:18 AM
Quote from: mamselle on March 15, 2022, 06:38:16 AM
The arts have a consistent problem of new students thinking they'll be light, easy courses at any time, but the two years I taught liturgical arts courses in a two-week summer session at a local seminary, i got complaints like that as well.
I'd planned for the amount of work one does in a 13-week course, including the usual expectation of c. 80-100 slides, 5 dance videos, and 10 musical examples, as well as three theatrical scenes to be viewed in the library and read in class. There was also a final project.
Requirements for things like this that have to be viewed or listened to at the library (back when that was a thing) make an awkward fit with the widespread student tendency to try to cram everything at the last minute. At my old job I was in charge of the Media Center portion of the library where AV reserves were kept for viewing and listening. It was a nightmare when art students were trying to cram their trays of slides, all on the same half-dozen projectors in the viewing room. All day long you'd have to deal with jams, misplaced slides, bulbs blowing, and projectors sometimes just packing up and having to be swapped out for spares. The room would get so hot you could feel the heat in the hall outside!
Meanwhile, Shakespeare class students were busily trying to cram their viewings of multiple productions of multiple plays on VHS tape. When not dealing with glitches in the slide viewing room, the AV staffer on duty would be constantly swapping out and rewinding tapes, trying not to get them mixed up and hoping that none of the VCRs ate one.
My favorite, though, is the prof who tried putting seven copies of a set of audio listenings on reserve, without checking to see whether we actually had that many players. We actually had three.
Yes. I have always been very careful to make good contact with AV, microfilm, and front-desk/reserve librarians, and encouraged them to contact me with any problems ASAP.
I did loose-leaf resource notebooks set up so they could go to the copier, run a quick set of pages, and sit down to work on them, and made sure they copied them daily so the logjam a5 the end didn't happen, by having open-note quizzes every other day.
I also showed clips of videos in-class first, and included those in the quizzes, so they would know what they were to look for and less likely to put it off as unfamiliar.
Some still did, anyway, I'm sure, but I went to the library after lunch each day to make the rounds and find out what was going on behind the scenes...some of my own books were on closed reserve, and I liked to be sure they were still there...
M.
I used to supervise a lab instructor who would lock the door so students could not arrive even five minutes late. Infantilizing, not to mention unsafe practice. Sometimes a student would leave to use the restroom and then couldn't get back in. Which is how I found out about it when they knocked on my door to ask for help getting back into the room.
Quote from: mamselle on March 15, 2022, 11:16:01 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 15, 2022, 08:15:18 AM
Quote from: mamselle on March 15, 2022, 06:38:16 AM
The arts have a consistent problem of new students thinking they'll be light, easy courses at any time, but the two years I taught liturgical arts courses in a two-week summer session at a local seminary, i got complaints like that as well.
I'd planned for the amount of work one does in a 13-week course, including the usual expectation of c. 80-100 slides, 5 dance videos, and 10 musical examples, as well as three theatrical scenes to be viewed in the library and read in class. There was also a final project.
Requirements for things like this that have to be viewed or listened to at the library (back when that was a thing) make an awkward fit with the widespread student tendency to try to cram everything at the last minute. At my old job I was in charge of the Media Center portion of the library where AV reserves were kept for viewing and listening. It was a nightmare when art students were trying to cram their trays of slides, all on the same half-dozen projectors in the viewing room. All day long you'd have to deal with jams, misplaced slides, bulbs blowing, and projectors sometimes just packing up and having to be swapped out for spares. The room would get so hot you could feel the heat in the hall outside!
Meanwhile, Shakespeare class students were busily trying to cram their viewings of multiple productions of multiple plays on VHS tape. When not dealing with glitches in the slide viewing room, the AV staffer on duty would be constantly swapping out and rewinding tapes, trying not to get them mixed up and hoping that none of the VCRs ate one.
My favorite, though, is the prof who tried putting seven copies of a set of audio listenings on reserve, without checking to see whether we actually had that many players. We actually had three.
Yes. I have always been very careful to make good contact with AV, microfilm, and front-desk/reserve librarians, and encouraged them to contact me with any problems ASAP.
I did loose-leaf resource notebooks set up so they could go to the copier, run a quick set of pages, and sit down to work on them, and made sure they copied them daily so the logjam a5 the end didn't happen, by having open-note quizzes every other day.
I also showed clips of videos in-class first, and included those in the quizzes, so they would know what they were to look for and less likely to put it off as unfamiliar.
Some still did, anyway, I'm sure, but I went to the library after lunch each day to make the rounds and find out what was going on behind the scenes...some of my own books were on closed reserve, and I liked to be sure they were still there...
M.
Some profs were certainly more helpful than others in trying to help library staff make the AV element of their classes go as smoothly as possible. I used to think that some of those AV assignments looked pretty neat, especially the one prof's emphasis on
viewing, instead of merely reading, the Bard's plays. But procrastinators will be procrastinators, and when they're all trying to use the same limited resources at once....
Quote from: Istiblennius on March 15, 2022, 12:01:00 PM
I used to supervise a lab instructor who would lock the door so students could not arrive even five minutes late. Infantilizing, not to mention unsafe practice. Sometimes a student would leave to use the restroom and then couldn't get back in. Which is how I found out about it when they knocked on my door to ask for help getting back into the room.
I definitely understand the urge since it is disruptive when students routinely arrive late, but I have never heard of anyone actually doing it.
I am aware of instructors barring students from starting an exam after the first student has finished it and left the classroom, but no student has ever finished one of my exams in this course in 20 minutes (this was not the first exam, so students knew that my exams take longer than that).
Quote from: Anon1787 on March 15, 2022, 04:52:29 PM
Quote from: Istiblennius on March 15, 2022, 12:01:00 PM
I used to supervise a lab instructor who would lock the door so students could not arrive even five minutes late. Infantilizing, not to mention unsafe practice. Sometimes a student would leave to use the restroom and then couldn't get back in. Which is how I found out about it when they knocked on my door to ask for help getting back into the room.
I definitely understand the urge since it is disruptive when students routinely arrive late, but I have never heard of anyone actually doing it.
I am aware of instructors barring students from starting an exam after the first student has finished it and left the classroom, but no student has ever finished one of my exams in this course in 20 minutes (this was not the first exam, so students knew that my exams take longer than that).
The policy of no one starting after the first person leaves is pretty standard here too. But with 300+ students, there's always one or two that finish that quickly. Either a really high or really low score.
Apparently "speed running" the exams (trying to finish really fast) is a thing. I don't get it. It's not like we give bonus points for finishing first.
I would guess it's a misguided declaration of independence, like, "you can't make me stay here and do all this work, I'll show you!"
There may also be some degree of peer pressure/social standing where leaving early conveys some kind of stature in some classmates' minds--especially, say teammates or other internally bonded cohort groups for whom personal subjugation to academic strictures represent some kind of betrayal of the anomyous "pack."
Just theorizing...
M.
I also think that for some people it's "I have no idea what to do with any of this, I guess I'm more lost than I thought."
Quote from: kiana on March 16, 2022, 08:22:17 AM
I also think that for some people it's "I have no idea what to do with any of this, I guess I'm more lost than I thought."
Sometimes students who really know the material also finish fast. I generally have TAs take the test ahead of time to catch any potential problems and they can usually finish in under half an hour for a test I allow 80 min for. Some of the best students do finish about that quickly too (though some of them then spend the rest of the time triple-checking everything).
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 16, 2022, 06:16:08 AM
Quote from: Anon1787 on March 15, 2022, 04:52:29 PM
Quote from: Istiblennius on March 15, 2022, 12:01:00 PM
I used to supervise a lab instructor who would lock the door so students could not arrive even five minutes late. Infantilizing, not to mention unsafe practice. Sometimes a student would leave to use the restroom and then couldn't get back in. Which is how I found out about it when they knocked on my door to ask for help getting back into the room.
I definitely understand the urge since it is disruptive when students routinely arrive late, but I have never heard of anyone actually doing it.
I am aware of instructors barring students from starting an exam after the first student has finished it and left the classroom, but no student has ever finished one of my exams in this course in 20 minutes (this was not the first exam, so students knew that my exams take longer than that).
The policy of no one starting after the first person leaves is pretty standard here too. But with 300+ students, there's always one or two that finish that quickly. Either a really high or really low score.
Apparently "speed running" the exams (trying to finish really fast) is a thing. I don't get it. It's not like we give bonus points for finishing first.
Sure, in high school and in one or two college classes where history exams were multiple choice, I would finish in five minutes because my memory works very well for things like that-alas not so much for languages, science or anything else. If you know the answer right away, a multiple choice question takes no time at all. However, essay exams don't work that way-if you know more you have more to say and it should take you longer to organize your ideas and write it out. Students who finish really quickly almost always do badly in my exams.
Email from Stu:
Quote
...I've never had an issue with writing. I've always excelled in composition and writing. What exactly is the concern about my writing and how do I finish this semester with a B or better in your class
Stu, are you reading the detailed feedback on your assignments? All the feedback? If you did so, you would understand the "concern" about your writing and what you can do to improve your grades.
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 31, 2022, 07:28:45 AM
Email from Stu:
Quote
...I've never had an issue with writing. I've always excelled in composition and writing. What exactly is the concern about my writing and how do I finish this semester with a B or better in your class
Stu, are you reading the detailed feedback on your assignments? All the feedback? If you did so, you would understand the "concern" about your writing and what you can do to improve your grades.
Stu's right; it's not
writing that's the big problem. Now
reading, on the other hand...
QuoteLocation of Lab
Good morning Professor [Geneticist],
I hope you doing well. My name is [confused]. I am enrolled in the [basketweaving] at [time] in [Building X room 123]. Though yesterday I went to look for the lab room in [Building X room 123] and had a hard time locating the room. Would you please guide me or email me a map to find the lab room in [Building X room 123]? Thank you.
All the best,
[confused]
I'd say "come to my office, it's just down the hall from your lab", but I fear that won't help.
Grade-grubbing Stu again:
Quote
My work was submitted on time. I think it's a little unfair that you won't give me the credit I deserve since it was Canvas' fault. Please reconsider.
Did Stu submit the assignment on time? Only about a third; the rest was uploaded in the comments box after the assignment was graded. It is always somebody else's fault.
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 07, 2022, 05:50:09 AM
Grade-grubbing Stu again:
Quote
My work was submitted on time. I think it's a little unfair that you won't give me the credit I deserve since it was Canvas' fault. Please reconsider.
Did Stu submit the assignment on time? Only about a third; the rest was uploaded in the comments box after the assignment was graded. It is always somebody else's fault.
I've got one right now who insists she both uploaded the paper in Canvas (it's not there) and sent me a Google docs link to it (nope). Now she's ghosting me.
Quote from: sinenomine on April 07, 2022, 07:50:51 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 07, 2022, 05:50:09 AM
Grade-grubbing Stu again:
Quote
My work was submitted on time. I think it's a little unfair that you won't give me the credit I deserve since it was Canvas' fault. Please reconsider.
Did Stu submit the assignment on time? Only about a third; the rest was uploaded in the comments box after the assignment was graded. It is always somebody else's fault.
I've got one right now who insists she both uploaded the paper in Canvas (it's not there) and sent me a Google docs link to it (nope). Now she's ghosting me.
Time to put a 0 in the grade book and call it done.
I have students who apparently need CONSTANT reassurance. "Your instructions say to do [X]. I did [X]. Can you check it for me?/did I do it right?"
NO.
LDW is a week from tomorrow. I've sent emails (AGAIN) to the ones who mathematically cannot pass. I'm sure my mailbox will fill up over the weekend with pleas for extra credit, requests to turn in work that was due in Week 1, 5, or 9, and so on. Nope.
Destroyer of Dreams and Crusher of Souls. That's me.
Quote from: AmLitHist on April 07, 2022, 09:55:55 AM
Destroyer of Dreams and Crusher of Souls. That's me.
That is a wonderful title. I'm usually "Why Stu Can't Get into Med School."
I've been getting those requests to submit late assignments all semester. I think quite a few people decided they couldn't have enforced due dates due to the pandemic.
Quote from: dr_evil on April 11, 2022, 11:52:15 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on April 07, 2022, 09:55:55 AM
Destroyer of Dreams and Crusher of Souls. That's me.
That is a wonderful title. I'm usually "Why Stu Can't Get into Med School."
So then "Saver of Lives" as well.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 11, 2022, 12:18:26 PM
Quote from: dr_evil on April 11, 2022, 11:52:15 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on April 07, 2022, 09:55:55 AM
Destroyer of Dreams and Crusher of Souls. That's me.
That is a wonderful title. I'm usually "Why Stu Can't Get into Med School."
So then "Saver of Lives" as well.
Protecting the public, one F at a time.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 11, 2022, 01:54:17 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 11, 2022, 12:18:26 PM
Quote from: dr_evil on April 11, 2022, 11:52:15 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on April 07, 2022, 09:55:55 AM
Destroyer of Dreams and Crusher of Souls. That's me.
That is a wonderful title. I'm usually "Why Stu Can't Get into Med School."
So then "Saver of Lives" as well.
Protecting the public, one F at a time.
Hmmm...that is one way to look at it.
Quote from: dr_evil on April 11, 2022, 02:09:02 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 11, 2022, 01:54:17 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 11, 2022, 12:18:26 PM
Quote from: dr_evil on April 11, 2022, 11:52:15 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on April 07, 2022, 09:55:55 AM
Destroyer of Dreams and Crusher of Souls. That's me.
That is a wonderful title. I'm usually "Why Stu Can't Get into Med School."
So then "Saver of Lives" as well.
Protecting the public, one F at a time.
Hmmm...that is one way to look at it.
LOL!!!
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 11, 2022, 01:54:17 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 11, 2022, 12:18:26 PM
Quote from: dr_evil on April 11, 2022, 11:52:15 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on April 07, 2022, 09:55:55 AM
Destroyer of Dreams and Crusher of Souls. That's me.
That is a wonderful title. I'm usually "Why Stu Can't Get into Med School."
So then "Saver of Lives" as well.
Protecting the public, one F at a time.
What would that be in Latin? It could be the motto of every professional school everywhere.
Stu: "Can you explain [action] in our assignment this week?"
me: copy-paste paragraph about [action] from the assignment.
Stu: "Thanks so much!!!!! That was very helpful!!!!!"
Question: would students do better if I sent them personalized emails with the class assignments, rather than posting in the LMS?
Yes, put a little scroll-work around it like a wedding invitation in the email, and personalize it even more!
Then they'll know you thought up this assignment JUST.FOR.THEM!!!
(kidding....)
M.
Quote from: arcturus on April 12, 2022, 05:36:43 AM
Stu: "Can you explain [action] in our assignment this week?"
me: copy-paste paragraph about [action] from the assignment.
Stu: "Thanks so much!!!!! That was very helpful!!!!!"
Question: would students do better if I sent them personalized emails with the class assignments, rather than posting in the LMS?
I have seen a lot more of this during this semester. I don't know why it's suddenly increased, but the number of my students who claim to have read all the instructions but react in exactly this manner has been rising.
Quote from: reverist on April 12, 2022, 07:12:56 AM
Quote from: arcturus on April 12, 2022, 05:36:43 AM
Stu: "Can you explain [action] in our assignment this week?"
me: copy-paste paragraph about [action] from the assignment.
Stu: "Thanks so much!!!!! That was very helpful!!!!!"
Question: would students do better if I sent them personalized emails with the class assignments, rather than posting in the LMS?
I have seen a lot more of this during this semester. I don't know why it's suddenly increased, but the number of my students who claim to have read all the instructions but react in exactly this manner has been rising.
But it only works if you resist the desire to preface the cut and pasted paragraph with the phrase "per the instructions"
Quote from: onthefringe on April 12, 2022, 09:37:21 AM
Quote from: reverist on April 12, 2022, 07:12:56 AM
Quote from: arcturus on April 12, 2022, 05:36:43 AM
Stu: "Can you explain [action] in our assignment this week?"
me: copy-paste paragraph about [action] from the assignment.
Stu: "Thanks so much!!!!! That was very helpful!!!!!"
Question: would students do better if I sent them personalized emails with the class assignments, rather than posting in the LMS?
I have seen a lot more of this during this semester. I don't know why it's suddenly increased, but the number of my students who claim to have read all the instructions but react in exactly this manner has been rising.
But it only works if you resist the desire to preface the cut and pasted paragraph with the phrase "per the instructions"
Ah, that's the part I always get wrong. So, I'm
not supposed to tell students that I already gave them the information they are looking for? Huh, I can give that a try in summer semester; maybe I will be seen as more helpful on evals.
And now for something completely different:
Quote
Excluding me from participation in peer review is setting me up for failure, especially when I had a draft complete to submit on the same day it was due.
Did Stu submit hu's draft by the 5 PM deadline? No.
When are peer reviews assigned? No later than 5:05 PM.
Was Stu aware of the deadline? Yes.
Am I expected to monitor Canvas after 5 PM on Fridays? No, according to the syllabus; yes, according to Stu.
Did Stu submit a peer review for the previous assignment? No, despite getting detailed feedback from Classmate on hu's essay.
Stu, you set yourself up for failure but not reading the modules, not completing your assignments, and not being aware of the deadlines despite reminders.
If our civilization leaves an audio trail as the earth travels through the universe, it will sound like this:
------- b --- bu ------- buuuuutttt----iiiiiittttttt'ssssss Noooooooootttt FAAAAAAAAAIIIIiiIRRRRRRRR!!!!! -------
M.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 12, 2022, 09:52:49 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on April 12, 2022, 09:37:21 AM
Quote from: reverist on April 12, 2022, 07:12:56 AM
Quote from: arcturus on April 12, 2022, 05:36:43 AM
Stu: "Can you explain [action] in our assignment this week?"
me: copy-paste paragraph about [action] from the assignment.
Stu: "Thanks so much!!!!! That was very helpful!!!!!"
Question: would students do better if I sent them personalized emails with the class assignments, rather than posting in the LMS?
I have seen a lot more of this during this semester. I don't know why it's suddenly increased, but the number of my students who claim to have read all the instructions but react in exactly this manner has been rising.
But it only works if you resist the desire to preface the cut and pasted paragraph with the phrase "per the instructions"
Ah, that's the part I always get wrong. So, I'm not supposed to tell students that I already gave them the information they are looking for? Huh, I can give that a try in summer semester; maybe I will be seen as more helpful on evals.
From
extensive experience as a snarky person, I gather that inclusion of "per the [instructions/notes/syllabus/announcement/prior email]" and also replies that include links to the posted [instructions/notes/syllabus/announcement/prior email] seem to be viewed as aggressive and snarky. Though possibly not quite as aggressive as inclusion of let me google that for you (https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=submit+documents+on+canvas) links. </sarcasm>
Quote from: onthefringe on April 12, 2022, 11:48:27 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 12, 2022, 09:52:49 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on April 12, 2022, 09:37:21 AM
Quote from: reverist on April 12, 2022, 07:12:56 AM
Quote from: arcturus on April 12, 2022, 05:36:43 AM
Stu: "Can you explain [action] in our assignment this week?"
me: copy-paste paragraph about [action] from the assignment.
Stu: "Thanks so much!!!!! That was very helpful!!!!!"
Question: would students do better if I sent them personalized emails with the class assignments, rather than posting in the LMS?
I have seen a lot more of this during this semester. I don't know why it's suddenly increased, but the number of my students who claim to have read all the instructions but react in exactly this manner has been rising.
But it only works if you resist the desire to preface the cut and pasted paragraph with the phrase "per the instructions"
Ah, that's the part I always get wrong. So, I'm not supposed to tell students that I already gave them the information they are looking for? Huh, I can give that a try in summer semester; maybe I will be seen as more helpful on evals.
From extensive experience as a snarky person, I gather that inclusion of "per the [instructions/notes/syllabus/announcement/prior email]" and also replies that include links to the posted [instructions/notes/syllabus/announcement/prior email] seem to be viewed as aggressive and snarky. Though possibly not quite as aggressive as inclusion of let me google that for you (https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=submit+documents+on+canvas) links. </sarcasm>
Yeah, I tend to be snarky and sarcastic in general. I tone it down as much as possible when teaching. I found I really had to watch the sarcasm when I was masked because they could not see my facial expression with the (what was intended to be humorous) statement. Once I switched to clear masks, it was better. I have actually asked my students if
they thought to google something rather than emailing me (not a course content question). Then I show them some online resources.
Quote from: mamselle on April 12, 2022, 06:48:39 AM
Yes, put a little scroll-work around it like a wedding invitation in the email, and personalize it even more!
Then they'll know you thought up this assignment JUST.FOR.THEM!!!
(kidding....)
M.
I would write it in calligraphy if it would help, but chances are they would be unable to read it. It might look too close to cursive.
A student emailed to ask if they could have extra time for their exam because they have another class right before it and wanted to be "more prepared ". They aren't taking an exam in the other class. They just have to walk from two buildings away on campus. Just like everyone else in their learning block.
Just no.
I woke up this morning to an email from a student who has done absolutely nothing (as in, *0% average*) all semester. Now, with two weeks left, she wants to send me all the discussions for the whole semester on a Word document, since the all discussion boards except the current ones are closed and she cannot enter them on Canvas.
Seriously? Does she think I have nothing better to do with my time than read a pages of hastily thrown together blather? Does she think she will pass the course if I give her credit for that? Does she not realize that she has also missed all the quizzes and the midterm? That her goose is cooked, and has been for a long time?
I wrote a polite but firm no-and-heck-no response.
Quote
I wrote a polite but firm no-and-heck-no response.
I usually copy advisors on such emails. That way, Stu's goose is indeed cooked and my behind covered.
So far, no pushback from the student. If there is, then I will surely contact the adviser. I was in touch with her adviser early in the semester and at midterm. I told the student that I plan to enter a grade of UW (unofficial withdrawal) rather than an F, since she has zero equity in the course.
Quote from: cathwen on April 14, 2022, 03:42:26 PM
Seriously? Does she think I have nothing better to do with my time than read a pages of hastily thrown together blather? Does she think she will pass the course if I give her credit for that?
Yes, she does. And guess what: you are just an obstacle for her to get a college degree, which I guess she has heard it might be useful in her life (probably she saw it on Facebook, instagram, Tik Tok, etc.). You just described all the undergraduate students in my class this semester.
I guess I feel a little lucky that only some of my students feel that way, and even some of those that do can be convinced otherwise.
Student wants to appeal her B. She's certain she got "all A's" on every assignment.
1. She's wrong with "all A's". She's a mix of A's B's C's and an occasional F.
2. The deadline for a grade appeal is 3 days after grades are posted. Which in this case would have been late December.
Student emails saying that he's going to miss class on Friday for a charity event. He wants permission to submit a writing assignment early. I say he can, but that can't submit more than one assignment at a time, and he must be in class to submit a response. So if he misses on Friday, then he'll only have one opportunity to submit a response (today). His replies
QuoteHey Dr. [no name]
Thanks for the reply! Unfortunately, I still need to submit two responses! I understand what you have said and what is in the syllabus, but I would greatly appreciate if you could have some mercy on me during this Easter week. I did not know it would come to this, and I want to do what I can to fulfill my responsibilities in this class as well as possible. I hope you can understand and come to a decision that benefits the both of us. I have a friend in the slot before whom I could give my Whitman entry to on Friday and have them deliver it safely into your hands.
I tell him that would not be fair to the other students if I made an exception for him and that I have stick to the guidelines on the assignment sheet.
QuoteDr. [misspelled name],
Life is not fair! No wise person ever claimed it was. Does your heart not cry out for compassion for your fellow man? I assure you that my classmates will not mind. I can ask them for us in class today if you would like! The law of charity trumps the law of syllabi. Whom would it harm to be kind to me in this instance? Should I just let all those homeless people starve?
Dan'l? Dan'l Webster?
Is that you?
M.
Quote from: RatGuy on April 20, 2022, 11:00:37 AM
Student emails saying that he's going to miss class on Friday for a charity event. He wants permission to submit a writing assignment early. I say he can, but that can't submit more than one assignment at a time, and he must be in class to submit a response. So if he misses on Friday, then he'll only have one opportunity to submit a response (today). His replies
QuoteHey Dr. [no name]
Thanks for the reply! Unfortunately, I still need to submit two responses! I understand what you have said and what is in the syllabus, but I would greatly appreciate if you could have some mercy on me during this Easter week. I did not know it would come to this, and I want to do what I can to fulfill my responsibilities in this class as well as possible. I hope you can understand and come to a decision that benefits the both of us. I have a friend in the slot before whom I could give my Whitman entry to on Friday and have them deliver it safely into your hands.
I tell him that would not be fair to the other students if I made an exception for him and that I have stick to the guidelines on the assignment sheet.
QuoteDr. [misspelled name],
Life is not fair! No wise person ever claimed it was. Does your heart not cry out for compassion for your fellow man? I assure you that my classmates will not mind. I can ask them for us in class today if you would like! The law of charity trumps the law of syllabi. Whom would it harm to be kind to me in this instance? Should I just let all those homeless people starve?
Dear student,
The instructions are in the syllabus. Your choice of whether to follow them or not
I'd also forward that email to their advisor and the dean. The student sounds like they are a bit off.
I got one today where the student said he was "confused" about the instructions and expectations.
This is on the easiest assignment of the entire course.
I told him, read the corresponding assigned reading for the week, and the expectations will be obvious. Yeah, that's exactly what I typed.
I have a student who has sent me a couple of emails that are either very reasonable information (to let me know that they were attending a school concert and would miss class and get the alternate assignment) or to ask a question (about a deadline that I mistakenly added to our LMS). The amusing thing is that they always close with "Thank you for taking time out of your life to read this message". I don't know why it strikes me funny, but it does - I feel like they think my life is far busier and more glamorous than it actually is.
I had this one the other day - makes me wonder how they managed in the actual winter.
QuoteHello,
Sorry I won't be in class today. The snow is bad and I currently don't have the proper clothing for the weather. Just wanted to let you know.
Thanks
Quote from: Istiblennius on April 20, 2022, 11:38:59 AM
I have a student who has sent me a couple of emails that are either very reasonable information (to let me know that they were attending a school concert and would miss class and get the alternate assignment) or to ask a question (about a deadline that I mistakenly added to our LMS). The amusing thing is that they always close with "Thank you for taking time out of your life to read this message". I don't know why it strikes me funny, but it does - I feel like they think my life is far busier and more glamorous than it actually is.
Maybe one of their folks is a prof and they realize how much goes on.
M.
"Hello,
I am confused about assignment 3 which is due. Can you explain in detail the assignment?
Thank you."
Ummm, assignment 3 was due the end of February - two months ago. It was part of the scaffolding for a large assignment that you have already completed. So, there is no point in worrying about it now....
I rechecked what Stu turned in for large assignment - the side effects of a lack of attention to the scaffolding assignments were quite evident.
Quote
I am emailing you to let you know that I am having trouble with my lap top and will submit the draft when I fix the problem. Hopefully by tonight.
When was the assignment due? 5 PM
Was Stu aware of the deadline? Yes, for more than two weeks.
Can Stu submit hu's assignment "hopefully by tonight"? Alas, no, because the assignment folder was locked at 5 PM.
Quote from: RatGuy on April 20, 2022, 11:00:37 AM
Student emails saying that he's going to miss class on Friday for a charity event. He wants permission to submit a writing assignment early. I say he can, but that can't submit more than one assignment at a time, and he must be in class to submit a response. So if he misses on Friday, then he'll only have one opportunity to submit a response (today). His replies
QuoteHey Dr. [no name]
Thanks for the reply! Unfortunately, I still need to submit two responses! I understand what you have said and what is in the syllabus, but I would greatly appreciate if you could have some mercy on me during this Easter week. I did not know it would come to this, and I want to do what I can to fulfill my responsibilities in this class as well as possible. I hope you can understand and come to a decision that benefits the both of us. I have a friend in the slot before whom I could give my Whitman entry to on Friday and have them deliver it safely into your hands.
I tell him that would not be fair to the other students if I made an exception for him and that I have stick to the guidelines on the assignment sheet.
QuoteDr. [misspelled name],
Life is not fair! No wise person ever claimed it was. Does your heart not cry out for compassion for your fellow man? I assure you that my classmates will not mind. I can ask them for us in class today if you would like! The law of charity trumps the law of syllabi. Whom would it harm to be kind to me in this instance? Should I just let all those homeless people starve?
Student told me in class that he planned on going to my program director so he could make me "make the prudent choice" in letting him have an exception. Then late last night I received this from the student
QuoteI talked to the program director and was able to switch my shift to Saturday and can now attend class. I appreciate you for who you are, and I know that you are trying your best to fulfill the responsibilities of your job. Your identity is perfect, and found most fully in Truth, where the fullness of your being is waiting for you. I hope you come to embrace this identity more and more with every passing moment and become the happiest person you can be.
Quote from: RatGuy on April 21, 2022, 06:27:17 AM
Student told me in class that he planned on going to my program director so he could make me "make the prudent choice" in letting him have an exception. Then late last night I received this from the student
QuoteI talked to the program director and was able to switch my shift to Saturday and can now attend class. I appreciate you for who you are, and I know that you are trying your best to fulfill the responsibilities of your job. Your identity is perfect, and found most fully in Truth, where the fullness of your being is waiting for you. I hope you come to embrace this identity more and more with every passing moment and become the happiest person you can be.
Um, has this person always been like this? If not, have they been reported as a student of concern? They seriously sound ... off. Like beginning of some kind of breakdown off.
Quote from: kiana on April 21, 2022, 07:34:28 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on April 21, 2022, 06:27:17 AM
Student told me in class that he planned on going to my program director so he could make me "make the prudent choice" in letting him have an exception. Then late last night I received this from the student
QuoteI talked to the program director and was able to switch my shift to Saturday and can now attend class. I appreciate you for who you are, and I know that you are trying your best to fulfill the responsibilities of your job. Your identity is perfect, and found most fully in Truth, where the fullness of your being is waiting for you. I hope you come to embrace this identity more and more with every passing moment and become the happiest person you can be.
Um, has this person always been like this? If not, have they been reported as a student of concern? They seriously sound ... off. Like beginning of some kind of breakdown off.
Yikes. That student is sounding a bit scary. Threatening to "make you make the prudent choice"? Report them to their advisor, your chair, the dean of students, student counseling, and campus security.
Best case scenario, they are entitled + clueless + odd expressions. Worst case scenario is they are actually dangerous. Their writing is really concerning. The "fully in Truth . . fullness of your being is waiting for you" is either a quasi-religious "be your best self" idea or it's a death threat.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 21, 2022, 09:20:01 AM
Quote from: kiana on April 21, 2022, 07:34:28 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on April 21, 2022, 06:27:17 AM
Student told me in class that he planned on going to my program director so he could make me "make the prudent choice" in letting him have an exception. Then late last night I received this from the student
QuoteI talked to the program director and was able to switch my shift to Saturday and can now attend class. I appreciate you for who you are, and I know that you are trying your best to fulfill the responsibilities of your job. Your identity is perfect, and found most fully in Truth, where the fullness of your being is waiting for you. I hope you come to embrace this identity more and more with every passing moment and become the happiest person you can be.
Um, has this person always been like this? If not, have they been reported as a student of concern? They seriously sound ... off. Like beginning of some kind of breakdown off.
Yikes. That student is sounding a bit scary. Threatening to "make you make the prudent choice"? Report them to their advisor, your chair, the dean of students, student counseling, and campus security.
Best case scenario, they are entitled + clueless + odd expressions. Worst case scenario is they are actually dangerous. Their writing is really concerning. The "fully in Truth . . fullness of your being is waiting for you" is either a quasi-religious "be your best self" idea or it's a death threat.
Huh, I don't read this as at all threatening, though definitely rather odd. My guess would be that this student is very religious and fancies themselves a bit of a philosopher plus has some poor social-communicative skills. Of course, it could also be a sign that they may be experiencing some thought disorder (as can happen with psychosis or mania), especially if it is a change and they are exhibiting any other odd behaviors. To me, this would be a keep an eye on it sort of situation, and if they showed any other behavioral changes I'd fill out the care team referral for them.
Quote from: Puget on April 21, 2022, 10:34:00 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 21, 2022, 09:20:01 AM
Quote from: kiana on April 21, 2022, 07:34:28 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on April 21, 2022, 06:27:17 AM
Student told me in class that he planned on going to my program director so he could make me "make the prudent choice" in letting him have an exception. Then late last night I received this from the student
QuoteI talked to the program director and was able to switch my shift to Saturday and can now attend class. I appreciate you for who you are, and I know that you are trying your best to fulfill the responsibilities of your job. Your identity is perfect, and found most fully in Truth, where the fullness of your being is waiting for you. I hope you come to embrace this identity more and more with every passing moment and become the happiest person you can be.
Um, has this person always been like this? If not, have they been reported as a student of concern? They seriously sound ... off. Like beginning of some kind of breakdown off.
Yikes. That student is sounding a bit scary. Threatening to "make you make the prudent choice"? Report them to their advisor, your chair, the dean of students, student counseling, and campus security.
Best case scenario, they are entitled + clueless + odd expressions. Worst case scenario is they are actually dangerous. Their writing is really concerning. The "fully in Truth . . fullness of your being is waiting for you" is either a quasi-religious "be your best self" idea or it's a death threat.
Huh, I don't read this as at all threatening, though definitely rather odd. My guess would be that this student is very religious and fancies themselves a bit of a philosopher plus has some poor social-communicative skills. Of course, it could also be a sign that they may be experiencing some thought disorder (as can happen with psychosis or mania), especially if it is a change and they are exhibiting any other odd behaviors. To me, this would be a keep an eye on it sort of situation, and if they showed any other behavioral changes I'd fill out the care team referral for them.
I would definitely report this. I do not see scary so much as thought disorder or the sublimation of emotional distress. This is the sort of language I associate with people trying to cope with overwhelming psychological issues.
For those commenting on the student's weird email, I'll say his behavior has been tiring all semester. I've vented about him before, especially his argument that he "doesn't recognize [my] authority" to teach on the religion of the Puritans, that everyone should "offer grace and forgiveness," especially those people who are victims of genocide (we were discussing the massacre at Mystic, Connecticut, and he says that current Pequot survivors should offer forgiveness), and that slavery is a choice. So I see his emails saying that the "prudent" course of action would be to make him exempt from class policies, and that "laws of mercy trump laws of syllabi" as pretty standard for him.
Someone upthread suggested a religious bent -- I'm wondering if it could be the rhetoric of rehabilitation/addiction? As in, the student is a recovering addict and he's deploying the language he learned while rehabilitating? I don't want to report this latest email because I've reported some of the other behavior. My program director is aware...how many more emails does he want from me on the subject?
I'd report this. Better safe than sorry.
A couple of other thoughts. Late teens to early 20's is also the usual time of onset for schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. Stu could just be a religious crank. Or this could be the early manifestations of serious mental illness. Stu needs to be referred to student services.
Unless of course the "slavery was a choice" argument means you have Kanye West in your class.
Quote from: RatGuy on April 21, 2022, 11:02:51 AM
For those commenting on the student's weird email, I'll say his behavior has been tiring all semester. I've vented about him before, especially his argument that he "doesn't recognize [my] authority" to teach on the religion of the Puritans, that everyone should "offer grace and forgiveness," especially those people who are victims of genocide (we were discussing the massacre at Mystic, Connecticut, and he says that current Pequot survivors should offer forgiveness), and that slavery is a choice. So I see his emails saying that the "prudent" course of action would be to make him exempt from class policies, and that "laws of mercy trump laws of syllabi" as pretty standard for him.
Someone upthread suggested a religious bent -- I'm wondering if it could be the rhetoric of rehabilitation/addiction? As in, the student is a recovering addict and he's deploying the language he learned while rehabilitating? I don't want to report this latest email because I've reported some of the other behavior. My program director is aware...how many more emails does he want from me on the subject?
I'd report it - when dealing with the truly odd, a complete paper trail is much better than a spotty one!
I was only kidding about the "Devil and Dan'l Webster" reference.
But knowing this is that same student, a more transparent picture emerges. They do combine both some programs' recovery language, and a misunderstood rhetoric of redemption and forgiveness, taken out of context, or without a full understanding of those processes' ritual or transactional dimensions.
In all cases, it sounds like the student is struggling, wants to both be 'righteous' (as that term has lately come to be used: i.e., upstanding and generously spiritual) and self-justifying (which in traditional Christian theology isn't possible in the way they're straining for it).
Does your campus have a chaplain you trust? They might be able to work with both you and the student in the language they're more specifically comfortable with; if you met with the chaplain first you could outline both your academic and your empathic concerns for the student, and you might get further in the conversation as well (plus, I agree, there'd be a paper trail: they document meetings, too).
Even if you don't self-identify as spiritual, that seems to be the dimension this student is operating in most clearly; good, trustworthy chaplains are also trained to spot psychological issues, and by working with someone in that setting, the student might see that you are really not dealing with them in an oppositional way, but in an understanding and caring way.
The chaplain shouldn't take any guff about deadlines, comprehensible language, or the student's need to do the work, either: you might float that concern first if you're on the fence about talking with them: pose the situation generally and see how you feel about their reply.
They're just a resource, like any other resource.
M.
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 21, 2022, 12:27:03 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 21, 2022, 12:08:09 PM
I'd report this. Better safe than sorry.
+1
+2
My situation with a troubled student worked out much better after having a detailed paper trail.
RG:
I would definitely document and report it.
I just received a flood of emails from students and one email, in particular, from a student who wants to discuss what assignments stu can drop since stu failed the course. I am not responding until tomorrow since it is after 5pm (and I have it written in my syllabus that I respond the next day for emails received after 5pm) and I had symptoms of a migraine earlier today which are still lingering. I'm turning off my email.
I swear- do they think the syllabus is optional?
What syllabus?
What syllabus, indeed. And what about the handouts, videos, readings, and other information in the modules? Who looks at them? I have students completing assignments without reading any of the instructional content or the detailed directions in the modules.
Pardon the vent, but I've had a flurry of emails over the weekend from Stus who clearly haven't read any of the above. Stus' philosophy: it doesnt' hurt to ask; ask and ye shall receive.
Like EPW, I too don't respond to emails after 5 PM on weekdays or on weekends. I waited until after 9 AM this morning to give them the rinse and repeat reminders about course policies and where to find them (the syllabus and assorted modules).
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 25, 2022, 06:28:49 PM
What syllabus, indeed. And what about the handouts, videos, readings, and other information in the modules? Who looks at them? I have students completing assignments without reading any of the instructional content or the detailed directions in the modules.
Pardon the vent, but I've had a flurry of emails over the weekend from Stus who clearly haven't read any of the above. Stus' philosophy: it doesnt' hurt to ask; ask and ye shall receive.
Like EPW, I too don't respond to emails after 5 PM on weekdays or on weekends. I waited until after 9 AM this morning to give them the rinse and repeat reminders about course policies and where to find them (the syllabus and assorted modules).
Same. I've been slammed with emails asking if they passed. How can you get into college and not know how to calculate your course grade? It's not that hard. I thought I made it pretty easy. Just add up the points and look at the table. I know I've bitched about this before, but it's just so damned frustrating and annoying.
Student who missed a deadline just wrote an email explaining why.
His dog died. He has had it since he was 8 years old.
He also included a picture of the dog.
Curious, and a first for me. No one ever sent me a picture of their recently deceased grandparents either.
Quote from: downer on April 27, 2022, 07:39:36 AM
Student who missed a deadline just wrote an email explaining why.
His dog died. He has had it since he was 8 years old.
He also included a picture of the dog.
Curious, and a first for me. No one ever sent me a picture of their recently deceased grandparents either.
That's interesting, especially given the well-documented phenomenon of dead grandparent syndrome (http://web.archive.org/web/20100528001006/https://www.easternct.edu/~adams/Resources/Grannies.pdf).
Student who has had one excuse after another all semester for why she can't attend class, and currently has a D, informed me that she can't attend the last two classes this week because she was a close contact and has to isolate. I then forwarded her the updated university policy which now requires only precautions and testing, not isolation, if they are asymptomatic. Suddenly she reports that she's symptomatic, a mere hour after saying she was only a close contact. Of course, I told her to follow the protocol for symptomatic individuals, but that's some fast and strategic onset of symptoms right there!
Quote from: Puget on April 27, 2022, 08:36:31 AM
Student who has had one excuse after another all semester for why she can't attend class, and currently has a D, informed me that she can't attend the last two classes this week because she was a close contact and has to isolate. I then forwarded her the updated university policy which now requires only precautions and testing, not isolation, if they are asymptomatic. Suddenly she reports that she's symptomatic, a mere hour after saying she was only a close contact. Of course, I told her to follow the protocol for symptomatic individuals, but that's some fast and strategic onset of symptoms right there!
I'd forward this to their advisor or contact their other instructors. On the off chance that they are being truthful, then they need to send you the documentation that they are needing to isolate.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 27, 2022, 09:19:29 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 27, 2022, 08:36:31 AM
Student who has had one excuse after another all semester for why she can't attend class, and currently has a D, informed me that she can't attend the last two classes this week because she was a close contact and has to isolate. I then forwarded her the updated university policy which now requires only precautions and testing, not isolation, if they are asymptomatic. Suddenly she reports that she's symptomatic, a mere hour after saying she was only a close contact. Of course, I told her to follow the protocol for symptomatic individuals, but that's some fast and strategic onset of symptoms right there!
I'd forward this to their advisor or contact their other instructors. On the off chance that they are being truthful, then they need to send you the documentation that they are needing to isolate.
I'm in close contact with her advisor, have been all semester. As far as documentation, we can request they send us a screenshot of their "red" passport, but all you have to do to make it turn red is report symptoms on the daily health questionnaire, so. . .
Heck, the symptoms probably are real, but may well be psychosomatic. The real problem is this student has severe anxiety, including health anxiety. She tried to get an accommodation to zoom in to her classes this semester, and it was denied (rightly so-- there has been no documented transmission in classrooms here, and the worst thing you can do for anxiety is allow avoidance). So, she has instead been reporting various reasons she can't come to class all semester (she has stomach problems, a relative is sick, etc.). Some may well be real, and I always try to give students the benefit of the doubt. I'm not really interested in policing her reasons. The natural consequence is that she is very unlikely to get the minimum C- for the course to count toward the major. In the end, she has to make her own choices.
Got this one from a student wanting to be excused from missed assignments:
QuoteWoke up feeling very sick and nauseous on the morning of my lab.
Nothing unusual there.
But, they sent it at 10:30pm the night before their lab. Either they are a time traveler, psychic, or they never intended to go to class and forgot to use the "delay send" on that email.
My money is on #3.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 28, 2022, 09:20:39 AM
Got this one from a student wanting to be excused from missed assignments:
QuoteWoke up feeling very sick and nauseous on the morning of my lab.
Nothing unusual there.
But, they sent it at 10:30pm the night before their lab. Either they are a time traveler, psychic, or they never intended to go to class and forgot to use the "delay send" on that email.
My money is on #3.
Not knowing what time & day it was proves how just how deliriously sick Stu is!
I received an email asking if a student could change a lab grade from a lab that was due in February because the grade was too low (Yes, a 16% is quite low.)! Another student wants me to open up labs that I told stu (several times via email over two months ago) were too late to open for partial credit.
Are reading comprehension skills in the toilet, or are they trying to pull a fast one? Or maybe both?
Signed-
Too Tired And Mentally Exhausted To Care Right Now.
It's a combination of poor or non-existent reading comprehension skills and the "rules don't apply to me" mentality. I've never had so many students demand that I just open closed assignment folders so that they can upload their late submissions, and also repeatedly email their assignments.
Well, after all, it got them through high school didn't it?
*sigh*
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 28, 2022, 02:34:40 PM
It's a combination of poor or non-existent reading comprehension skills and the "rules don't apply to me" mentality. I've never had so many students demand that I just open closed assignment folders so that they can upload their late submissions, and also repeatedly email their assignments.
Or demand that I remove late penalties or be allowed to turn in assignments after they have already been graded to "make up" the missed points. I have decided to just keep all assignments open with an automatic late penalty. After 10 days, it's so late that it's 0 points, but they can still turn it in!
And I have more students than usual that forget to turn in their lab assignments before leaving lab. Why?! They say "but I participated! why is my grade a 0?" Because. you. didn't. turn. in. your. assignment.
Most students only forget once, apologize/beg for mercy, and never forget again. This time I have someone who has forgotten every week. I just don't understand.
Email sent after 7 PM on Friday:
Quote
I just woke up and read your email. Can I work on the rest of the discussion post and the revising assignment?
Deadline for these assignments? 5 PM
What's the usual deadline for these assignments? 5 PM
How many weeks until the end of the semester? 1
According to Stu's earlier email, hu was recovering from the flu. Stu was given extensions earlier in the semester because of documented medical issues.
Stu and a few others in this online course think that I monitor the course and by extension the emails 24/7.
Can you tell it's the last day of the semester?
Message from a student: "I just wanted to clarify if the reflection assignments are extra credit or mandatory assignments. I would also like to ask of they are extra credit can they harm our grade or just help it."
My answer: The reflections are extra credit, which why they are labeled extra credit. Not doing an extra credit assignment won't hurt your grade.
Sorry to double-post, but this one is classic: note the positive reinforcement before the anxious (and unlikely to happen) request:
I wanted to thank you for a great, very informative semester in which you pushed me to learn a lot more information than I expected to learn. You were definitely one of my most dedicated professors, so I really appreciate it. I was wondering if after you manually take away my lowest discussion grade, if my grade is an 86 or above, if you'd consider rounding it to a 90 to maintain my GPA? Again, I really appreciate your effort in each individual student this semester.
I replied if they're at 89.0001 I'll round up, but not 86.
Quote from: kiana on April 28, 2022, 02:40:03 PM
Well, after all, it got them through high school didn't it?
*sigh*
Yep. They probably weren't allowed to fail in high school, which is why we see a whole host of poor behaviors & attitudes - & if we don't ensure that they are successful then we are actively against them, don't care about them, and want them to fail!
You are more or less right about high school, but the blame really falls on parents and administrators.
Indeed. We have a major issue with students who plagiarize expecting to get second chances to redo their papers. Some students appear thoroughly shocked that they just can't redo a paper for a full grade after they were caught lifting entire sections without citation.
We also have at least two students a semester who think that they can submit a paper that is mostly verbatim from sources as long as they use proper citations.
All of our lecture courses have plenty of information about how to correctly write papers along with warnings about consequences, we even have a required quiz on plagiarism in every course.
I think the change over the last couple of years has been in the expectation that they be given a full second chance after they were caught. I had one student last year accuse us of stealing money from them because they failed the class due to plagiarism, now they were going to have to pay for the class again.
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on May 02, 2022, 06:31:38 AM
We also have at least two students a semester who think that they can submit a paper that is mostly verbatim from sources as long as they use proper citations.
If this can satisfy the requirements for the paper, then that seems like more of a problem with the requirements than with the student.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 02, 2022, 06:46:30 AM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on May 02, 2022, 06:31:38 AM
We also have at least two students a semester who think that they can submit a paper that is mostly verbatim from sources as long as they use proper citations.
If this can satisfy the requirements for the paper, then that seems like more of a problem with the requirements than with the student.
It doesn't. Students just whiz on past the "no more than 20-30% of your paper will be comprised of material from other sources" requirement.
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on May 02, 2022, 07:05:36 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 02, 2022, 06:46:30 AM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on May 02, 2022, 06:31:38 AM
We also have at least two students a semester who think that they can submit a paper that is mostly verbatim from sources as long as they use proper citations.
If this can satisfy the requirements for the paper, then that seems like more of a problem with the requirements than with the student.
It doesn't. Students just whiz on past the "no more than 20-30% of your paper will be comprised of material from other sources" requirement.
So it's better than a plagiarism case, since it doesn't involve any academic integrity problems, just a simple failure to meet requirements.
Stu who missed a major assignment last week because of a power outage at home emailed me at 7:28 PM on Friday to let me know that hu is still having power outage problems at home, but had uploaded current assignment at 5:45 PM. Did Stu upload the assignment? No. Can Stu see that the assignment hasn't been uploaded? Yes.
Now (Monday morning) Stu wants to know why I didn't assign a peer review partner. Stu knows from experience that I assign peer review partners immediately after the 5 PM deadline and that assignments have to be uploaded in order to be assigned a peer review partner. Stu also knows that emails sent after 5 PM on Friday don't get a response until some time on Monday.
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 02, 2022, 08:21:02 AM
Stu who missed a major assignment last week because of a power outage at home emailed me at 7:28 PM on Friday to let me know that hu is still having power outage problems at home, but had uploaded current assignment at 5:45 PM. Did Stu upload the assignment? No. Can Stu see that the assignment hasn't been uploaded? Yes.
Now (Monday morning) Stu wants to know why I didn't assign a peer review partner. Stu knows from experience that I assign peer review partners immediately after the 5 PM deadline and that assignments have to be uploaded in order to be assigned a peer review partner. Stu also knows that emails sent after 5 PM on Friday don't get a response until some time on Monday.
But Stu is
special!
Student sends me a picture of a quiz. She scores a 90 on it. She says, "you didn't mark anything wrong on this quiz but you gave me a 90? There must be some mistake. Could you correct it in your gradebook please?"
I told her to look on the other side of the quiz — the last 3 questions are there. She must've missed one of those. But I like how she's trying to slip that one by me, hoping I wouldn't remember a quiz from last month. Wanting to change her grade just on her word? Why yes, she is pre-med.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 02, 2022, 07:14:46 AM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on May 02, 2022, 07:05:36 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 02, 2022, 06:46:30 AM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on May 02, 2022, 06:31:38 AM
We also have at least two students a semester who think that they can submit a paper that is mostly verbatim from sources as long as they use proper citations.
If this can satisfy the requirements for the paper, then that seems like more of a problem with the requirements than with the student.
It doesn't. Students just whiz on past the "no more than 20-30% of your paper will be comprised of material from other sources" requirement.
So it's better than a plagiarism case, since it doesn't involve any academic integrity problems, just a simple failure to meet requirements.
Yes, definitely. I sometimes tell students "you shouldn't be using material from sites like history.com, because they are reference sources. However, the most important thing is to cite all the sources." Doing the assignment wrong is obviously not great, but it isn't academic dishonesty.
That said, in my discipline and courses, I wouldn't try to have a rule for what percentage of the paper could be citations. What matters is not how much of the paper is quotes, but how the writer is using those quotes. If the quotes are being carefully used to support the author's own arguments, that's fine. If the student is basically just using quotes to avoid making their own argument, that's bad. How bad depends on the degree. If the entire paper is just block quotes with a few asides from the writer, that isn't really completing the assignment.
Quote from: Caracal on May 04, 2022, 05:07:52 AM
That said, in my discipline and courses, I wouldn't try to have a rule for what percentage of the paper could be citations. What matters is not how much of the paper is quotes, but how the writer is using those quotes. If the quotes are being carefully used to support the author's own arguments, that's fine. If the student is basically just using quotes to avoid making their own argument, that's bad. How bad depends on the degree. If the entire paper is just block quotes with a few asides from the writer, that isn't really completing the assignment.
I think our culture lets students down in this regard. They're used to expressing their
feelings or opinions on issues, and they're used to expressing
what some authority says about something, but the idea of coming up with their own
rational analysis is totally foreign. (
Feelings are unassailable, as is the statement of some authority. The idea that they should be able to come up with something
defensible on their own doesn't compute.)
Quote from: Caracal on May 04, 2022, 05:07:52 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 02, 2022, 07:14:46 AM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on May 02, 2022, 07:05:36 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 02, 2022, 06:46:30 AM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on May 02, 2022, 06:31:38 AM
We also have at least two students a semester who think that they can submit a paper that is mostly verbatim from sources as long as they use proper citations.
If this can satisfy the requirements for the paper, then that seems like more of a problem with the requirements than with the student.
It doesn't. Students just whiz on past the "no more than 20-30% of your paper will be comprised of material from other sources" requirement.
So it's better than a plagiarism case, since it doesn't involve any academic integrity problems, just a simple failure to meet requirements.
Yes, definitely. I sometimes tell students "you shouldn't be using material from sites like history.com, because they are reference sources. However, the most important thing is to cite all the sources." Doing the assignment wrong is obviously not great, but it isn't academic dishonesty.
That said, in my discipline and courses, I wouldn't try to have a rule for what percentage of the paper could be citations. What matters is not how much of the paper is quotes, but how the writer is using those quotes. If the quotes are being carefully used to support the author's own arguments, that's fine. If the student is basically just using quotes to avoid making their own argument, that's bad. How bad depends on the degree. If the entire paper is just block quotes with a few asides from the writer, that isn't really completing the assignment.
Yeah, our issue is the students using block quotes for most of the paper. As a two-year all of our lecture courses are basic gen-eds so our focus tends to be on the fundamentals. There are a lot of students coming out of high school from this area who have never written an actual research paper. I seem to recall a discussion on this forum before about students being taught to "find their voice" rather than learn how to write appropriately and there is definitely an element of that here as well.
It has gotten bad enough that we are seriously contemplating requiring all students to pass a test on plagiarism and how to properly cite before they can access course content. Some of our instructors already have something like that in place but we may standardize it. Students learn about plagiarism and citing in the first english class they are required to take here but our art, music, and drama gen ed courses don't have prerequisites. In consequence a sizeable portion of students end up in our classes with only what they learned in high school.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 04, 2022, 07:28:54 AM
Quote from: Caracal on May 04, 2022, 05:07:52 AM
That said, in my discipline and courses, I wouldn't try to have a rule for what percentage of the paper could be citations. What matters is not how much of the paper is quotes, but how the writer is using those quotes. If the quotes are being carefully used to support the author's own arguments, that's fine. If the student is basically just using quotes to avoid making their own argument, that's bad. How bad depends on the degree. If the entire paper is just block quotes with a few asides from the writer, that isn't really completing the assignment.
I think our culture lets students down in this regard. They're used to expressing their feelings or opinions on issues, and they're used to expressing what some authority says about something, but the idea of coming up with their own rational analysis is totally foreign. (Feelings are unassailable, as is the statement of some authority. The idea that they should be able to come up with something defensible on their own doesn't compute.)
It can be hard for us to remember that making an argument is hard because it is so baked into academic discourse. If you go to a grad program what you learn to do is analyze and critique other people's arguments and make your own.
"X thinks this, but really they are using the wrong evidence/protocol/procedure and their study doesn't mean what they say it does."
"Y argues this, and they are partially right, but they ignore important thing that would change what it means for other thing."
"Z makes this case, and they are correct, but you could actually apply to some different thing entirely and it would change something."
We all learn to do this in our professional training, because that's how you situate your work and give it meaning in academia. However, it really is something students have to be taught. Ideally, that's what a first year writing course does...
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on May 04, 2022, 08:42:24 AM
Quote from: Caracal on May 04, 2022, 05:07:52 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 02, 2022, 07:14:46 AM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on May 02, 2022, 07:05:36 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 02, 2022, 06:46:30 AM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on May 02, 2022, 06:31:38 AM
We also have at least two students a semester who think that they can submit a paper that is mostly verbatim from sources as long as they use proper citations.
If this can satisfy the requirements for the paper, then that seems like more of a problem with the requirements than with the student.
It doesn't. Students just whiz on past the "no more than 20-30% of your paper will be comprised of material from other sources" requirement.
So it's better than a plagiarism case, since it doesn't involve any academic integrity problems, just a simple failure to meet requirements.
Yes, definitely. I sometimes tell students "you shouldn't be using material from sites like history.com, because they are reference sources. However, the most important thing is to cite all the sources." Doing the assignment wrong is obviously not great, but it isn't academic dishonesty.
That said, in my discipline and courses, I wouldn't try to have a rule for what percentage of the paper could be citations. What matters is not how much of the paper is quotes, but how the writer is using those quotes. If the quotes are being carefully used to support the author's own arguments, that's fine. If the student is basically just using quotes to avoid making their own argument, that's bad. How bad depends on the degree. If the entire paper is just block quotes with a few asides from the writer, that isn't really completing the assignment.
Yeah, our issue is the students using block quotes for most of the paper. As a two-year all of our lecture courses are basic gen-eds so our focus tends to be on the fundamentals. There are a lot of students coming out of high school from this area who have never written an actual research paper. I seem to recall a discussion on this forum before about students being taught to "find their voice" rather than learn how to write appropriately and there is definitely an element of that here as well.
Are you still finding a lot of students who can only write stereotyped five-paragraph essays? I remember a lot of complaints about that at the Fora some years back.
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on May 04, 2022, 08:42:24 AM
It has gotten bad enough that we are seriously contemplating requiring all students to pass a test on plagiarism and how to properly cite before they can access course content. Some of our instructors already have something like that in place but we may standardize it. Students learn about plagiarism and citing in the first english class they are required to take here but our art, music, and drama gen ed courses don't have prerequisites. In consequence a sizeable portion of students end up in our classes with only what they learned in high school.
I did that this semester and it didn't make a damn bit of difference. Everyone watched the video, wrote up their answers and the paragraph summarizing what they learned, and then at least 50% of the students in each of three different sections plagiarized the second assignment (mostly by copying definitions from the text without quotation marks/citations/references, even though the instructions reminded them to quote/cite/reference direct quotes).
It happens every single semester.
Email from stu who has been absent and out-of-contact for months: "Prof, I'm not one to make excuses."
A excuse 1/2 the length of an assigned essay follows, along with various attempts at emotional blackmail.
Don't state and federal agencies have laws about awarding university credit to students who have not garnered even a minimum level of seat-time?
Dunno about credit, per se, but I believe student loans can be rescinded for non-attendance.
M.
QuoteAre you still finding a lot of students who can only write stereotyped five-paragraph essays? I remember a lot of complaints about that at the Fora some years back.
Yes, that is fairly consistent I am afraid.
Quote from: fosca on May 04, 2022, 04:43:35 PM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on May 04, 2022, 08:42:24 AM
It has gotten bad enough that we are seriously contemplating requiring all students to pass a test on plagiarism and how to properly cite before they can access course content. Some of our instructors already have something like that in place but we may standardize it. Students learn about plagiarism and citing in the first english class they are required to take here but our art, music, and drama gen ed courses don't have prerequisites. In consequence a sizeable portion of students end up in our classes with only what they learned in high school.
I did that this semester and it didn't make a damn bit of difference. Everyone watched the video, wrote up their answers and the paragraph summarizing what they learned, and then at least 50% of the students in each of three different sections plagiarized the second assignment (mostly by copying definitions from the text without quotation marks/citations/references, even though the instructions reminded them to quote/cite/reference direct quotes).
I imagine we'll probably see the same, unfortunately. What we hope to cut down on is the time spent in student appeals.
There are some well-meaning folks on the "student success" side who use the excuse that students don't know what plagiarism is to push for those students to be given another chance at an assignment.
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on May 05, 2022, 02:16:15 PM
QuoteAre you still finding a lot of students who can only write stereotyped five-paragraph essays? I remember a lot of complaints about that at the Fora some years back.
Yes, that is fairly consistent I am afraid.
Quote from: fosca on May 04, 2022, 04:43:35 PM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on May 04, 2022, 08:42:24 AM
It has gotten bad enough that we are seriously contemplating requiring all students to pass a test on plagiarism and how to properly cite before they can access course content. Some of our instructors already have something like that in place but we may standardize it. Students learn about plagiarism and citing in the first english class they are required to take here but our art, music, and drama gen ed courses don't have prerequisites. In consequence a sizeable portion of students end up in our classes with only what they learned in high school.
I did that this semester and it didn't make a damn bit of difference. Everyone watched the video, wrote up their answers and the paragraph summarizing what they learned, and then at least 50% of the students in each of three different sections plagiarized the second assignment (mostly by copying definitions from the text without quotation marks/citations/references, even though the instructions reminded them to quote/cite/reference direct quotes).
I imagine we'll probably see the same, unfortunately. What we hope to cut down on is the time spent in student appeals.
There are some well-meaning folks on the "student success" side who use the excuse that students don't know what plagiarism is to push for those students to be given another chance at an assignment.
The problem is that plagiarism is usually some combination of ignorance, laziness, cluelessness and desperation. Educating students about it is good, but its really only going to help with the ignorance part-a student who really does have good intentions and doesn't understand the rules. For people who aren't paying much attention, they might watch the video and write something on it, but they aren't going to remember it when they write their paper.
For what its worth, I don't really think of what Fosca described as plagiarism-or not the kind that I would report and go through the formal channels for. If the student is using a text they are required to use for the paper, but they use direct quotations without the citation, its hard to imagine they were trying to take credit for work they didn't produce. Of course, if they just copied most of the paper from the book, that's different, but if its just that quotes don't have the quotation marks around them, I would treat that as a technical issue, rather than a case of academic dishonesty.
To my mind, its very different from if a student just grabs some random text off the internet and uses it.
I tried using the automatically scored fill-in-the-blank feature in Canvas. I'm seriously regretting that choice since students are VERY creative in their capitalization, spacing, and hyphenation choices. I've had to do a LOT of regrades.
And then I get this gem:
QuoteHello Professor [name spelled wrong] I got a 0.5 on the worksheet on quesitions II and was wondreing if you could look over it. My name is [student] part of the [wrong class name]
My money is on a spelling error.
I'm OK if their spelling isn't perfect, but it needs to be 1) close to the actual answer and 2) not a word that means something else. Like the difference between lactose and lactase. The first is a sugar, the second is an enzyme. Students often learn the hard way that one letter can make that much of a difference.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 06, 2022, 11:52:43 AM
And then I get this gem:
QuoteHello Professor [name spelled wrong] I got a 0.5 on the worksheet on quesitions II and was wondreing if you could look over it. My name is [student] part of the [wrong class name]
It's really sad that a college student (even an undergrad) can't spell "geneticist."
Quote from: apl68 on May 06, 2022, 12:46:04 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 06, 2022, 11:52:43 AM
And then I get this gem:
QuoteHello Professor [name spelled wrong] I got a 0.5 on the worksheet on quesitions II and was wondreing if you could look over it. My name is [student] part of the [wrong class name]
It's really sad that a college student (even an undergrad) can't spell "geneticist."
Well, it's not really Dr. Geneticist. But my last name is often misspelled by swapping two letters. Like the difference between Dr. Cats and Dr. Cast
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 06, 2022, 11:52:43 AM
I tried using the automatically scored fill-in-the-blank feature in Canvas. I'm seriously regretting that choice since students are VERY creative in their capitalization, spacing, and hyphenation choices. I've had to do a LOT of regrades.
And then I get this gem:
Yup. I converted all of mine to the one where they select answers from a dropdown menu rather than type them in. In addition to weird spelling and punctuation, I used to get long justifications for the answers. Sigh.
Quote from: Caracal on May 06, 2022, 07:03:58 AM
For what its worth, I don't really think of what Fosca described as plagiarism-or not the kind that I would report and go through the formal channels for. If the student is using a text they are required to use for the paper, but they use direct quotations without the citation, its hard to imagine they were trying to take credit for work they didn't produce. Of course, if they just copied most of the paper from the book, that's different, but if its just that quotes don't have the quotation marks around them, I would treat that as a technical issue, rather than a case of academic dishonesty.
To my mind, its very different from if a student just grabs some random text off the internet and uses it.
True; I didn't report them and they didn't earn a zero. But when I made it very clear in my presentation and in the instructions that they were to use quotation marks and citations/references and they didn't use any of them, they lost a LOT of points. If they had a citation but no quotation marks or vice/versa, they lost a few points. And in both cases got a lot of feedback as to why they lost the points.
I do consider it plagiarism; they are presenting someone else's words as their own work in their writing. It's just a misdemeanor rather than a felony; felonies earn a much harsher penalty.
I uploaded a student's grade to the CMS several days ago--no problems, no complaints. Then she missed the last class of the semester when I would have handed her my written feedback. I scanned all the written comments I still had and emailed them to the students.
Within minutes, this student wrote back to challenge her assignment grade, which frankly was pretty generous given how poor her performance was. I try to do something nice for someone! Next semester I'll upload these to the CMS where nobody looks.
First line of an email from Stu sent a few minutes ago:
Quote
Hi Professor, I sent you an email yesterday...
Today is Sunday, yesterday was Saturday. Stu knows quite well that I don't respond to emails over the weekend or during the break.
What prompted this email and a couple more from Stu's classmates? I'm grading assignments; Stus were given a second chance to revise and resubmit three of their assignments.
If only students would check the directions for their assignments as assiduously as they monitor my comments!
[Hi dear instructor, hope you are doing well, [redacted] here. I read the feedback that you gave me for my final essay. I did all good according to me. I would like to submit it again with improvement. I request you to give me one chance to submit it again. These grades are very low and will affect my gpa. I do not want to lose grades. I will submit it tomorrow as soon as I can. It will be very helpful for me if you can give me another chance.
Thank you.][/quote]
According to me, you didn't follow my instructions and so your paper does not meet the minimum standards for a passing grade.
Tomorrow is the marking deadline.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 26, 2022, 06:05:03 PM
[Hi dear instructor, hope you are doing well, [redacted] here. I read the feedback that you gave me for my final essay. I did all good according to me. I would like to submit it again with improvement. I request you to give me one chance to submit it again. These grades are very low and will affect my gpa. I do not want to lose grades. I will submit it tomorrow as soon as I can. It will be very helpful for me if you can give me another chance.
Thank you.]
According to
me, you didn't follow my instructions and so your paper does not meet the minimum standards for a passing grade.
Tomorrow is the marking deadline.
[/quote]
Ugh. One of the worst pandemic-influenced learning habits is that students are acting like everything is negotiable/flexible. Better document on this one. A complaint of "Dr. P wouldn't grade my revised essay!" is easily countered by "There was no option to revise. You final version was due on X date."
This is not a student email, but a mommy email, cc'd to Stu (whose name in mommy's email address book is listed as something nauseatingly similar to "sweetie" or "baby"). Thankfully I have my email on autoreply and say for any advising issues to contact the advising office, for everything else contact the engineering office, and I'll be back the week before classes start. I only opened Outlook to download an attachment sent by a colleague that I needed for some consulting we're doing.
Note that she uses MY first name, not Dr. Mode, or Prof Mode, or even Ms./Mrs. Mode but signs her name as Mrs. Stu's Lastname. I have no idea who Stu is, perhaps an incoming freshpeep and I've somehow been assigned as his advisor (but normally freshpeeps are advised by our advising office, faculty only get declared majors to advise). And if she can find enough info to get my email address, she can also find my office phone number because goodness knows she's not getting my personal number. **sigh** If she doesn't get what she needs from the advising office I'll have to dust off my FERPA speech and tell her [as politely as I can muster] that Stu needs to fend for himself, especially if he's not a freshpeep.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi Edna,
I'm Stu's mom and wanted to know if we could schedule a time that we could talk to you about his schedule and a couple other things. Can you let us know what days/times you might be available? Also a good number to call you.
Thanks!
Mrs. Stu's Lastname
Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Quote from: EdnaMode on July 20, 2022, 08:56:18 PM
This is not a student email, but a mommy email, cc'd to Stu (whose name in mommy's email address book is listed as something nauseatingly similar to "sweetie" or "baby"). Thankfully I have my email on autoreply and say for any advising issues to contact the advising office, for everything else contact the engineering office, and I'll be back the week before classes start. I only opened Outlook to download an attachment sent by a colleague that I needed for some consulting we're doing.
Note that she uses MY first name, not Dr. Mode, or Prof Mode, or even Ms./Mrs. Mode but signs her name as Mrs. Stu's Lastname. I have no idea who Stu is, perhaps an incoming freshpeep and I've somehow been assigned as his advisor (but normally freshpeeps are advised by our advising office, faculty only get declared majors to advise). And if she can find enough info to get my email address, she can also find my office phone number because goodness knows she's not getting my personal number. **sigh** If she doesn't get what she needs from the advising office I'll have to dust off my FERPA speech and tell her [as politely as I can muster] that Stu needs to fend for himself, especially if he's not a freshpeep.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi Edna,
I'm Stu's mom and wanted to know if we could schedule a time that we could talk to you about his schedule and a couple other things. Can you let us know what days/times you might be available? Also a good number to call you.
Thanks!
Mrs. Stu's Lastname
Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I tend to ignore such emails. I get them less frequently then calls on my office phone. Often parents complain that they've been transferred to my extension. Often their questions boil down to "can you get my kid into Basketweaving when that's not even my department. Sometimes they're miffed that I don't know anything, but more often they're as confused as I am.
Quote from: RatGuy on July 21, 2022, 06:08:45 AM
I tend to ignore such emails. I get them less frequently then calls on my office phone. Often parents complain that they've been transferred to my extension. Often their questions boil down to "can you get my kid into Basketweaving when that's not even my department. Sometimes they're miffed that I don't know anything, but more often they're as confused as I am.
I am going to ignore it and will send a follow-up once I'm officially back on campus in the hopes that someone in the advising office took care of whatever requests there were in the meantime. I have had ridiculous requests in the past including making sure that Stu gets a wakeup call for their 8 AM class because they don't like mornings, weekly reports on Stu's grades, arranging tutoring for Stu, etc. as if I worked for Stu and/or the parents as a personal assistant. Sorry people, I'm a professor and researcher, not a nanny. Guess I'm just getting increasingly cranky (get off my lawn!) in my old age and any patience I ever had with overly concerned parents and too-attached kids has gone far by the wayside.
Quote from: EdnaMode on July 20, 2022, 08:56:18 PM
This is not a student email, but a mommy email, cc'd to Stu (whose name in mommy's email address book is listed as something nauseatingly similar to "sweetie" or "baby"). Thankfully I have my email on autoreply and say for any advising issues to contact the advising office, for everything else contact the engineering office, and I'll be back the week before classes start. I only opened Outlook to download an attachment sent by a colleague that I needed for some consulting we're doing.
Note that she uses MY first name, not Dr. Mode, or Prof Mode, or even Ms./Mrs. Mode but signs her name as Mrs. Stu's Lastname. I have no idea who Stu is, perhaps an incoming freshpeep and I've somehow been assigned as his advisor (but normally freshpeeps are advised by our advising office, faculty only get declared majors to advise). And if she can find enough info to get my email address, she can also find my office phone number because goodness knows she's not getting my personal number. **sigh** If she doesn't get what she needs from the advising office I'll have to dust off my FERPA speech and tell her [as politely as I can muster] that Stu needs to fend for himself, especially if he's not a freshpeep.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi Edna,
I'm Stu's mom and wanted to know if we could schedule a time that we could talk to you about his schedule and a couple other things. Can you let us know what days/times you might be available? Also a good number to call you.
Thanks!
Mrs. Stu's Lastname
Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's good that you sent an informative auto-reply, because this sort of reads like the opening salvo from a skilled and determined helicopter parent. I hope I'm wrong!
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on July 21, 2022, 08:39:47 AM
It's good that you sent an informative auto-reply, because this sort of reads like the opening salvo from a skilled and determined helicopter parent. I hope I'm wrong!
That's what I'm afraid of, an Apache Attack Helicopter parent. I'm crossing my fingers she finds someone else to answer her questions before I'm officially back on campus and send her a reply. Time will tell, but at least my dept chair is very firm in defending us faculty against such parents and says (almost gleefully) just send the cranky parents on to him if things get dicey.
Quote from: EdnaMode on July 21, 2022, 09:48:09 AM
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on July 21, 2022, 08:39:47 AM
It's good that you sent an informative auto-reply, because this sort of reads like the opening salvo from a skilled and determined helicopter parent. I hope I'm wrong!
That's what I'm afraid of, an Apache Attack Helicopter parent. I'm crossing my fingers she finds someone else to answer her questions before I'm officially back on campus and send her a reply. Time will tell, but at least my dept chair is very firm in defending us faculty against such parents and says (almost gleefully) just send the cranky parents on to him if things get dicey.
Skilled & supportive chairs (& other admins) can be worth their weight in gold in these situations for sure!
Confused stu: I tested positive for covid so I can't come to class today or Monday.
Me (also confused): Sorry you're sick! However, we don't have class today as this is a M/W class, and we don't have class next Monday because it is Labor Day.
Confused stu: Sorry for the confusion! I meant I missed class yesterday, how do I make it up?
Me: Given your last name you are in the Monday section* so you also didn't have class yesterday. Did you miss class Monday?
Really confused stu: Sorry for the mix up and confusion! I was in class Monday.**
* This is a flipped course, so they are only in person one day a week. About which there have been course announcements, it is highlighted in bold at the top of the LMS and in the syllabus, and we went over it in class Monday.
**Which I haven now verified, so how did you miss that she is in the Monday section??
I mean, I'm sorry she's sick (if she actually is) but this is some serious lack of organization and comprehension. Not a good start to the semester Stu!
Quote from: Puget on September 01, 2022, 05:55:19 AM
Confused stu: I tested positive for covid so I can't come to class today or Monday.
Me (also confused): Sorry you're sick! However, we don't have class today as this is a M/W class, and we don't have class next Monday because it is Labor Day.
Confused stu: Sorry for the confusion! I meant I missed class yesterday, how do I make it up?
Me: Given your last name you are in the Monday section* so you also didn't have class yesterday. Did you miss class Monday?
Really confused stu: Sorry for the mix up and confusion! I was in class Monday.**
* This is a flipped course, so they are only in person one day a week. About which there have been course announcements, it is highlighted in bold at the top of the LMS and in the syllabus, and we went over it in class Monday.
**Which I haven now verified, so how did you miss that she is in the Monday section??
I mean, I'm sorry she's sick (if she actually is) but this is some serious lack of organization and comprehension. Not a good start to the semester Stu!
Yikes. And this is why I insist that any student who says they have COVID fill out the campus survey that tells them IF they need to isolate and for how long.
I hope the extreme disorganization is not a normal thing for this student, but it's not a good start.
Quote from: the_geneticist on September 01, 2022, 09:18:00 AM
Quote from: Puget on September 01, 2022, 05:55:19 AM
Confused stu: I tested positive for covid so I can't come to class today or Monday.
Me (also confused): Sorry you're sick! However, we don't have class today as this is a M/W class, and we don't have class next Monday because it is Labor Day.
Confused stu: Sorry for the confusion! I meant I missed class yesterday, how do I make it up?
Me: Given your last name you are in the Monday section* so you also didn't have class yesterday. Did you miss class Monday?
Really confused stu: Sorry for the mix up and confusion! I was in class Monday.**
* This is a flipped course, so they are only in person one day a week. About which there have been course announcements, it is highlighted in bold at the top of the LMS and in the syllabus, and we went over it in class Monday.
**Which I haven now verified, so how did you miss that she is in the Monday section??
I mean, I'm sorry she's sick (if she actually is) but this is some serious lack of organization and comprehension. Not a good start to the semester Stu!
Yikes. And this is why I insist that any student who says they have COVID fill out the campus survey that tells them IF they need to isolate and for how long.
I hope the extreme disorganization is not a normal thing for this student, but it's not a good start.
I hope not too, but geez.
Starting next they are supposed to get a letter from the health center with their excused dates to send to faculty, but they didn't get it in place for the start of the semester. I'm very glad they are doing that I certainly don't want them coming to class infectious, but "I tested positive" has become a go-to get out of class for an indefinite period card.
My university (like most others) posts a calendar online. I also sent out a syllabus (with dates) two weeks ago.
However, today I got two emails from students. The first, enrolled in a M/W class, asked if the first day of class was today. No, today is Labor Day and the school is shut down.
The second, from a student in a Tuesday class, asked if the first day of class was next Tuesday. No, it's tomorrow, because the day after Labor Day is not a holiday.
I could understand some student confusion, since we do not take off all holidays (for reason's I've never understood). Nonetheless, this information is easily available.
I teach a studio art class and our school's policy is to drop students who miss four classes in a row without contact. I have a student who has not shown up for the past two classes so I sent him an email to check in, and to remind him about the policy. Student responds with some righteous indignation that he had contacted me twice and I never responded, student includes screenshot of emails. Turns out student was emailing another student who has the same last name as me.
Instructor emails are formatted differently from student ones here, specifically to prevent these kind of mixups. My email is also in the blackboard shell multiple times and I have emailed all of the students in the class several times since the class started. This is also the student's third semester here so it's not like they are brand new. I gently pointed all of this out and have received crickets back, we'll see if they show to class on Thursday...
Quote from: jerseyjay on September 05, 2022, 07:40:42 PM
My university (like most others) posts a calendar online. I also sent out a syllabus (with dates) two weeks ago.
However, today I got two emails from students. The first, enrolled in a M/W class, asked if the first day of class was today. No, today is Labor Day and the school is shut down.
The second, from a student in a Tuesday class, asked if the first day of class was next Tuesday. No, it's tomorrow, because the day after Labor Day is not a holiday.
I could understand some student confusion, since we do not take off all holidays (for reason's I've never understood). Nonetheless, this information is easily available.
We start today, but I've already had three emails from students who don't know whether they signed up for an in-person, online synchronous, or online asynchronous course (they also don't know what those words mean), who "read" the syllabus but don't know when the course is being held (see the first paragraph!) or how many credits it's worth (3, like every other course; this information is on the syllabus, too. What made you think it was 4 credits?), etc.
Ugh.
It's not really an email but it kinda fits here.
Artem college has several health related professional doctorates. As students matriculate from their undergrad to their doctoral studies, we hold a white coat ceremony in which students are formally given a white lab coat to demonstrate their entry into the professional curriculum. Faculty are asked to donate to a fund to purchase said coats - ~ $50 each. I paid for 3.
Here's the part that gets me. As each student puts on their white coat and puts their hands in the pockets, they find a pre-addressed envelope (to me) and a card they can use to express their thanks for the coat and their professional opportunities. I've always thought it was a bit infantilizing to give them a pre-prepared thank you card. Professional students should know enough to send one without being prompted. But hey, whatever.
This year I got 3 cards in the mail. Two of them addressing me by my first name and the usual thank yous on the card. The third card was completely blank. Kid just stuffed it back in the envelope and stuck it in the mail. I guess I should count myself lucky they even bothered to mail it.
Hi (my first name). I am so sorry. I'm in your 8am and I over slept. Did I miss anything important?
Did I Miss Anything (https://www.loc.gov/programs/poetry-and-literature/poet-laureate/poet-laureate-projects/poetry-180/all-poems/item/poetry-180-013/did-i-miss-anything/)
Quote from: mahagonny on September 07, 2022, 06:31:47 AM
Hi (my first name). I am so sorry. I'm in your 8am and I over slept. Did I miss anything important?
I dunno. How important is it to you that you learn the material in this course?
Quote from: mahagonny on September 07, 2022, 06:31:47 AM
Hi (my first name). I am so sorry. I'm in your 8am and I over slept. Did I miss anything important?
You'll find out come the final. Until then, best regards!
Quote from: FishProf on September 07, 2022, 07:47:29 AM
Did I Miss Anything (https://www.loc.gov/programs/poetry-and-literature/poet-laureate/poet-laureate-projects/poetry-180/all-poems/item/poetry-180-013/did-i-miss-anything/)
I love this.
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on September 06, 2022, 07:39:34 AM
Student responds with some righteous indignation that he had contacted me twice and I never responded, student includes screenshot of emails. Turns out student was emailing another student who has the same last name as me.
I've had something similar with a student over the summer, but when I checked the screenshots, it turns out the student had emailed themselves rather than me - and there is nothing similar about our emails.
I asked her about it and she thought she was copying herself into the email!
We are on quarters so classes haven't started yet. Got this one today:
Quote
I'm reaching out to both yourselves because I'm currently on the waitlist of your course and I am eager to be in your course this upcoming quarter. If there was an possibly action you could take to help me fulfill this wish I would greatly appreciate it.
Polite, reasonably well-written, and asks a specific question. But if I had the power to grant wishes I wouldn't use them to add more students to my already full classes.
Quote from: Sleepy72 on September 07, 2022, 12:11:04 PM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on September 06, 2022, 07:39:34 AM
Student responds with some righteous indignation that he had contacted me twice and I never responded, student includes screenshot of emails. Turns out student was emailing another student who has the same last name as me.
I've had something similar with a student over the summer, but when I checked the screenshots, it turns out the student had emailed themselves rather than me - and there is nothing similar about our emails.
I asked her about it and she thought she was copying herself into the email!
To quote many previous posters over the years, "Digital natives, my arse!"
I had one a few years back sent his assignment to the first "secundem" that popped up on his email. It ended up in the inbox of a friend of mine that teaches O-Chem. Kid got a D in the course. Took it again the next year to bump his gpa to enter a professional program. Ended up with an F. Dropped out of college as far as I know.
This was polite and pretty well written, but it's not the only one I've received...
>>>>>>>>>>
Dr. Mode,
I hope you are well. This is Stu from your [class]. I was making sure that I am ready for lecture and laboratory tomorrow morning and saw that there was no submission box open for the [items] that we need to have ready for [task] in the laboratory portion. I thought I remembered you saying that we did not need to submit a [thing] before class, just to have them ready, but I just want to double check to prevent myself from missing out on any points for simply not submitting anything. Just to confirm, we do not need to submit anything before lecture or laboratory?
Thank you,
Stu
>>>>>>>>>>
He's right, I told them in class there was no dropbox, and I looked at Canvas, it does specifically state to just have the items ready before lab, and that there is no dropbox. For many of them, the time they take for prep work is excruciatingly long and if they want any hope of having the work on this assignment done during lab, they need to have certain things done before they get there **sigh** I just replied and told him that no, there was no dropbox, just to have the prep work done before lab. I have had colleagues complain about the uptick in "double-checking" emails this semester so it's not just me.
Student: "When can I resubmit my work?"
Me: "What???"
Quote from: downer on September 13, 2022, 10:25:09 AM
Student: "When can I resubmit my work?"
Me: "What???"
Next semester, when you retake the class.
Quote from: FishProf on September 13, 2022, 12:30:49 PM
Quote from: downer on September 13, 2022, 10:25:09 AM
Student: "When can I resubmit my work?"
Me: "What???"
Next semester, when you retake the class.
I think we are going to see a LOT of this for the next few years.
My vote is "not after it's graded." If they want to show that they understand the materials better, that's great since it will be on their exams.
Student email at 8:50pm yesterday: I don't understand Item #5 on the quiz.
Student email today at 11am: did you get my email about the quiz question?
WTF? Not only are your emails less than 24 hours apart, but I was guest-lecturing in a class you were in from 9-11 today! When do you think I've had time to answer email?
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 15, 2022, 08:20:54 AM
Student email at 8:50pm yesterday: I don't understand Item #5 on the quiz.
Student email today at 11am: did you get my email about the quiz question?
WTF? Not only are your emails less than 24 hours apart, but I was guest-lecturing in a class you were in from 9-11 today! When do you think I've had time to answer email?
The student is conditioned by texting culture, where any message sent to one's family or circle of friends elicits a response within a very short time. It's easy to see how many students have no clue about the realities of professional communication.
I was a bit perplexed by the email sent by the Jewish student saying he couldn't really work on a Friday night. Sent on a Friday night.
My puzzlement was largely because I don't have any weekend due dates.
Before or after sundown on Friday?
M.
A student last year was venting about many things in my office and said, "And once you sent me an email at 3 am!" First of all, earlier in my career with very young kids I might have sent 3 am emails but I definitely did not send an email at that time to this student. And what if I did? Jeez.
I followed up after this odd declaration by emailing her that I could not find any evidence of a 3 am email and she responded by saying that she had mixed up her stories and it was another faculty member who had emailed her classmate. What.
Consecutive emails from CONFUSED grad student, all on the same day:
Student Email #1: Is there a dropbox folder for [assignment]. I can't find it. I'm confused how I'm supposed to submit if there is no dropbox.
OMTY Email #1: The dropbox is entitled [NAME OF ASSIGNMENT]. (Note, there are only 1 dropbox open for this course in the student view).
Student Email #2: I'm confused about the data we should use. I found this [totally wrong thing on the LMS] and the numbers don't match.
OMY Email #2: I passed out the data in class today. The [thing you found] is relevant to [correct thing it applies to].
Student Email #3: I got #X wrong on the quiz. I'm confused.
OMY Email #3: Look in [resource] to determine how to do question X.
Student Email #4: So, just to clarify, is the answer Z? I was confused because of [completely obvious thing].
OMY Email #4: Look in [resource] to determine how to do question X. You have 3 opportunities to take the quiz. (Note, low stakes quizzes with several attempts allowed).
Can't wait for the next installment of how I am so confusing.
Stu is seeking to withdraw from my GE course because Stu spends about 3 hours per week on homework for each course in Stu's major, which doesn't leave much time in Stu's schedule for my course.
Dear Stu:
According to federal regulations, a credit hour is defined as "the amount of work represented in intended learning outcomes and verified by evidence of student achievement that is an institutionally established equivalency that reasonably approximates not less than one hour of classroom or direct faculty instruction and a minimum of two hours of out-of-class student work each week for approximately 15 weeks for one semester." Hence you should expect to spend 6 hours per week on homework for a 3 credit hour course. If you're only spending half of that time on the courses in your major, then you should have plenty of time to do the work for my course!
Student: Hi Dr. OMY, I've completely messed up [specification for assignment]. Is that okay?
Me: ?????
Quote from: OneMoreYear on October 08, 2022, 07:32:54 PM
Student: Hi Dr. OMY, I've completely messed up [specification for assignment]. Is that okay?
Me: ?????
You're supposed to pat Stu on the head and say "There, there, there. Don't you worry about it. I'll see that you get full credit for this assignment."
I am getting more emails than usual from students demanding to be excused from missing lab. Not asking, not inquiring about options.
Nope. You options are: go to your class, get permission to attend another section, or complete an alternate version of the assignment that will probably take you just as long as if you actually went to class.
This is all in the syllabus.
The current "winner" is a student demanding to be excused from all labs for the rest of the quarter due to an upcoming minor surgery.
A lot of reluctance to go to labs being reported on the Fora this semester.
Quote from: apl68 on October 18, 2022, 10:14:31 AM
A lot of reluctance to go to labs being reported on the Fora this semester.
For my classes, I think it might be because I have one of the last hybrid sections. Since part of the class is online, the students want all of it to be online, I guess. I'm very cynical about the current group.
Two very different emails:
Yesterday, from PITA grad student (only lightly paraphrased): I think I have COVID or a sinus infection or a really bad cold. I need extensions on all of my work and also "if you could just [do thing for me that I already told her I would not do] that would be great." I hear the boss from Office Space in my head reading her emails.
Yesterday, from grad student for whom my heart breaks give what they are going through this semester (paraphrased): I was informed yesterday that I need to take my mother off of life-support. I was wondering if it was possible to have a week's extension on the work this week. I should not need an extension for anything due next week.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on October 18, 2022, 04:41:43 PM
Two very different emails:
Yesterday, from PITA grad student (only lightly paraphrased): I think I have COVID or a sinus infection or a really bad cold. I need extensions on all of my work and also "if you could just [do thing for me that I already told her I would not do] that would be great." I hear the boss from Office Space in my head reading her emails.
Yesterday, from grad student for whom my heart breaks give what they are going through this semester (paraphrased): I was informed yesterday that I need to take my mother off of life-support. I was wondering if it was possible to have a week's extension on the work this week. I should not need an extension for anything due next week.
The sad thing is that if the first student saw the second student's email, she probably wouldn't even clue in about how different her request is, and even more so, how different her
attitude is.
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 19, 2022, 05:36:21 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on October 18, 2022, 04:41:43 PM
Two very different emails:
Yesterday, from PITA grad student (only lightly paraphrased): I think I have COVID or a sinus infection or a really bad cold. I need extensions on all of my work and also "if you could just [do thing for me that I already told her I would not do] that would be great." I hear the boss from Office Space in my head reading her emails.
Yesterday, from grad student for whom my heart breaks give what they are going through this semester (paraphrased): I was informed yesterday that I need to take my mother off of life-support. I was wondering if it was possible to have a week's extension on the work this week. I should not need an extension for anything due next week.
The sad thing is that if the first student saw the second student's email, she probably wouldn't even clue in about how different her request is, and even more so, how different her attitude is.
Since COVID is a death sentence for many, sadly, if the first student does have COVID, then they aren't that different. Apparently many have decided COVID doesn't cause mortality or morbidity, when the evidence shows it sadly causes both.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on October 19, 2022, 09:26:10 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 19, 2022, 05:36:21 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on October 18, 2022, 04:41:43 PM
Two very different emails:
Yesterday, from PITA grad student (only lightly paraphrased): I think I have COVID or a sinus infection or a really bad cold. I need extensions on all of my work and also "if you could just [do thing for me that I already told her I would not do] that would be great." I hear the boss from Office Space in my head reading her emails.
Yesterday, from grad student for whom my heart breaks give what they are going through this semester (paraphrased): I was informed yesterday that I need to take my mother off of life-support. I was wondering if it was possible to have a week's extension on the work this week. I should not need an extension for anything due next week.
The sad thing is that if the first student saw the second student's email, she probably wouldn't even clue in about how different her request is, and even more so, how different her attitude is.
Since COVID is a death sentence for many, sadly, if the first student does have COVID, then they aren't that different. Apparently many have decided COVID doesn't cause mortality or morbidity, when the evidence shows it sadly causes both.
But the request for the prof to do
what the prof had already explicitly refused to do suggests it's more about the student's sense of entitlement than their experience of COVID.
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 19, 2022, 09:48:31 AM
Quote from: MarathonRunner on October 19, 2022, 09:26:10 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 19, 2022, 05:36:21 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on October 18, 2022, 04:41:43 PM
Two very different emails:
Yesterday, from PITA grad student (only lightly paraphrased): I think I have COVID or a sinus infection or a really bad cold. I need extensions on all of my work and also "if you could just [do thing for me that I already told her I would not do] that would be great." I hear the boss from Office Space in my head reading her emails.
Yesterday, from grad student for whom my heart breaks give what they are going through this semester (paraphrased): I was informed yesterday that I need to take my mother off of life-support. I was wondering if it was possible to have a week's extension on the work this week. I should not need an extension for anything due next week.
The sad thing is that if the first student saw the second student's email, she probably wouldn't even clue in about how different her request is, and even more so, how different her attitude is.
Since COVID is a death sentence for many, sadly, if the first student does have COVID, then they aren't that different. Apparently many have decided COVID doesn't cause mortality or morbidity, when the evidence shows it sadly causes both.
But the request for the prof to do what the prof had already explicitly refused to do suggests it's more about the student's sense of entitlement than their experience of COVID.
Student does not have COVID. I got the update 1 hour later after they tested negative. I receive >20 emails from this student each week. I'll admit I'm annoyed when I see their name in my inbox. I offered reasonable extension for medical illness, as I do for all students. I do take COVID seriously. My mom is immunocompromised and on oxygen. When she was hospitalized during the pandemic, we were terrified. Students who are sick may come to my classes virtually. I do not require medical notes. Sorry if the vent was inappropriate.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on October 19, 2022, 10:22:02 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 19, 2022, 09:48:31 AM
Quote from: MarathonRunner on October 19, 2022, 09:26:10 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 19, 2022, 05:36:21 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on October 18, 2022, 04:41:43 PM
Two very different emails:
Yesterday, from PITA grad student (only lightly paraphrased): I think I have COVID or a sinus infection or a really bad cold. I need extensions on all of my work and also "if you could just [do thing for me that I already told her I would not do] that would be great." I hear the boss from Office Space in my head reading her emails.
Yesterday, from grad student for whom my heart breaks give what they are going through this semester (paraphrased): I was informed yesterday that I need to take my mother off of life-support. I was wondering if it was possible to have a week's extension on the work this week. I should not need an extension for anything due next week.
The sad thing is that if the first student saw the second student's email, she probably wouldn't even clue in about how different her request is, and even more so, how different her attitude is.
Since COVID is a death sentence for many, sadly, if the first student does have COVID, then they aren't that different. Apparently many have decided COVID doesn't cause mortality or morbidity, when the evidence shows it sadly causes both.
But the request for the prof to do what the prof had already explicitly refused to do suggests it's more about the student's sense of entitlement than their experience of COVID.
Student does not have COVID. I got the update 1 hour later after they tested negative. I receive >20 emails from this student each week. I'll admit I'm annoyed when I see their name in my inbox. I offered reasonable extension for medical illness, as I do for all students. I do take COVID seriously. My mom is immunocompromised and on oxygen. When she was hospitalized during the pandemic, we were terrified. Students who are sick may come to my classes virtually. I do not require medical notes. Sorry if the vent was inappropriate.
Vent away! That graduate student sounds like a PITA. We still have students who think "I might have interacted with someone who might have COVID = get excused from all assignments or responsibility".
Uni students, esp *grad* students, should not claim to have covid before they get a positive test for it.
Current tests for COVID, especially rapid tests, do not accurately reflect the variants circulating in many places in Canada, the US, and the EU. I would rather give students the benefit of the doubt, given the new variants and how immune evasive they are. I don't want a student with COVID symptoms, whether COVID or not, coming to class, feeling they have to work when they should be resting, or otherwise endangering their health or that of others. Tests aren't infallible. People test negative for many days until testing positive many days later.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on October 21, 2022, 01:28:59 PM
Current tests for COVID, especially rapid tests, do not accurately reflect the variants circulating in many places in Canada, the US, and the EU. I would rather give students the benefit of the doubt, given the new variants and how immune evasive they are. I don't want a student with COVID symptoms, whether COVID or not, coming to class, feeling they have to work when they should be resting, or otherwise endangering their health or that of others. Tests aren't infallible. People test negative for many days until testing positive many days later.
This is not correct-- the rapid tests still work, because the RNA sequence they test for is not one that has mutated across variants.
It is true that rapid tests can give false negatives early in an infection, which is why someone with symptoms should test again the next day and isolate in the meantime. PCR tests are highly sensitive and accurate for all variants.
It is important to recognize that false negatives can occur, but it is very important not to spread false information that tests no longer work.
Quote from: Puget on October 21, 2022, 02:00:30 PM
Quote from: MarathonRunner on October 21, 2022, 01:28:59 PM
Current tests for COVID, especially rapid tests, do not accurately reflect the variants circulating in many places in Canada, the US, and the EU. I would rather give students the benefit of the doubt, given the new variants and how immune evasive they are. I don't want a student with COVID symptoms, whether COVID or not, coming to class, feeling they have to work when they should be resting, or otherwise endangering their health or that of others. Tests aren't infallible. People test negative for many days until testing positive many days later.
This is not correct-- the rapid tests still work, because the RNA sequence they test for is not one that has mutated across variants.
It is true that rapid tests can give false negatives early in an infection, which is why someone with symptoms should test again the next day and isolate in the meantime. PCR tests are highly sensitive and accurate for all variants.
It is important to recognize that false negatives can occur, but it is very important not to spread false information that tests no longer work.
Rapid tests detect proteins, not RNA. However, you are right that concerns seem to be low for variants escaping the common rapid tests. This recent paper (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36084631/) models the impact of mutations on all the antigens detected in the commercially available rapid tests and find limited to no concern for the current variants of concern escaping detection.
Everything I have read suggests that false negative antigen tests are (as puget notes) much more common in asymptomatic people than symptomatic people, so I think there's decent support for people with symptoms but a negative test being ok to leave their homes, especially if they are willing to mask.
I agree that people should prioritize their health, but also see a fair number of students using "my roommate's partner might have some covid symptoms so I should stay home" as a reason to skip class.
Quote from: onthefringe on October 21, 2022, 05:57:15 PM
Quote from: Puget on October 21, 2022, 02:00:30 PM
Quote from: MarathonRunner on October 21, 2022, 01:28:59 PM
Current tests for COVID, especially rapid tests, do not accurately reflect the variants circulating in many places in Canada, the US, and the EU. I would rather give students the benefit of the doubt, given the new variants and how immune evasive they are. I don't want a student with COVID symptoms, whether COVID or not, coming to class, feeling they have to work when they should be resting, or otherwise endangering their health or that of others. Tests aren't infallible. People test negative for many days until testing positive many days later.
This is not correct-- the rapid tests still work, because the RNA sequence they test for is not one that has mutated across variants.
It is true that rapid tests can give false negatives early in an infection, which is why someone with symptoms should test again the next day and isolate in the meantime. PCR tests are highly sensitive and accurate for all variants.
It is important to recognize that false negatives can occur, but it is very important not to spread false information that tests no longer work.
Rapid tests detect proteins, not RNA. However, you are right that concerns seem to be low for variants escaping the common rapid tests. This recent paper (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36084631/) models the impact of mutations on all the antigens detected in the commercially available rapid tests and find limited to no concern for the current variants of concern escaping detection.
Everything I have read suggests that false negative antigen tests are (as puget notes) much more common in asymptomatic people than symptomatic people, so I think there's decent support for people with symptoms but a negative test being ok to leave their homes, especially if they are willing to mask.
I agree that people should prioritize their health, but also see a fair number of students using "my roommate's partner might have some covid symptoms so I should stay home" as a reason to skip class.
Yes you're right, what I should have more precisely said is that the
RNA sequence which is translated into the protein that the rapid test detects has not mutated (which is just rather lucky, but has held so far).
Hmmm... this brings up an interesting question in my mind, esp in the era of effective covid vaxxes: we do not say that someone who may or may not have influenza should necessarily skip class, esp if their symptoms are mild, and we do not have a flu test protocol either. Mild cold symptoms could of course just be a mild cold. Exactly for how long should we make anyone who has symptoms that might be covid isolate from the world? Remember that in the world of low-wage workers, the time of (often mandatory) paid covid time off is long gone, and skipping work because of what might be a cold could be financially disastrous.
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 21, 2022, 09:22:25 PM
Hmmm... this brings up an interesting question in my mind, esp in the era of effective covid vaxxes: we do not say that someone who may or may not have influenza should necessarily skip class, esp if their symptoms are mild, and we do not have a flu test protocol either. Mild cold symptoms could of course just be a mild cold. Exactly for how long should we make anyone who has symptoms that might be covid isolate from the world? Remember that in the world of low-wage workers, the time of (often mandatory) paid covid time off is long gone, and skipping work because of what might be a cold could be financially disastrous.
Actually, I think that we probably need to reevaluate our policies regarding illness in general. Long before Covid, I told my students that if they were ill, they should stay home. I would prefer that my cook, my doctor, etc., not have a mild case of the flu at work. Not to mention that rest sometimes is the best treatment. I would prefer that students who are ill not come to class. [There are some students who will use any excuse not to come to class, but then there are some students who seem to be on death's door and will still come to class.] I agree in the real world (i.e., at work, not school), staying home can be financially disastrous. But this would seem to me to highlight the need to offer paid sick days, not enforced work when ill.
(I also agree that sometimes Covid protocols seem silly. I still have colleagues who do not come to work for several days because they might have been exposed to somebody who might have been exposed to Covid. I assume that that in the course of my regular day I am probably exposed to somebody who has Covid regularly.)
Quote from: Puget on October 21, 2022, 07:05:49 PM
Quote from: onthefringe on October 21, 2022, 05:57:15 PM
Quote from: Puget on October 21, 2022, 02:00:30 PM
Quote from: MarathonRunner on October 21, 2022, 01:28:59 PM
Current tests for COVID, especially rapid tests, do not accurately reflect the variants circulating in many places in Canada, the US, and the EU. I would rather give students the benefit of the doubt, given the new variants and how immune evasive they are. I don't want a student with COVID symptoms, whether COVID or not, coming to class, feeling they have to work when they should be resting, or otherwise endangering their health or that of others. Tests aren't infallible. People test negative for many days until testing positive many days later.
This is not correct-- the rapid tests still work, because the RNA sequence they test for is not one that has mutated across variants.
It is true that rapid tests can give false negatives early in an infection, which is why someone with symptoms should test again the next day and isolate in the meantime. PCR tests are highly sensitive and accurate for all variants.
It is important to recognize that false negatives can occur, but it is very important not to spread false information that tests no longer work.
Rapid tests detect proteins, not RNA. However, you are right that concerns seem to be low for variants escaping the common rapid tests. This recent paper (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36084631/) models the impact of mutations on all the antigens detected in the commercially available rapid tests and find limited to no concern for the current variants of concern escaping detection.
Everything I have read suggests that false negative antigen tests are (as puget notes) much more common in asymptomatic people than symptomatic people, so I think there's decent support for people with symptoms but a negative test being ok to leave their homes, especially if they are willing to mask.
I agree that people should prioritize their health, but also see a fair number of students using "my roommate's partner might have some covid symptoms so I should stay home" as a reason to skip class.
Yes you're right, what I should have more precisely said is that the RNA sequence which is translated into the protein that the rapid test detects has not mutated (which is just rather lucky, but has held so far).
Evidently the federal agency that has tried to turn our library into a free test distribution site has lost faith in the rapid tests. They have supplied us with tests that we must send in by Federal Express. The taker of the test has to wait two or three days and then log in online to get the results. Virtually nobody wants these tests--if they have the time to take a test and then wait for the results, they'll go to their doctor or health clinic for it. Otherwise they want, and need, rapid tests. Since we can't offer them rapid tests, they have rejected what we have to offer. We've finally given up on the program--total waste of time and resources.
If the feds really wanted to encourage more use of testing, they should have continued to supply the rapid tests, whatever their faults. A superior test that people don't actually use might as well be no test at all.
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 21, 2022, 09:22:25 PM
Hmmm... this brings up an interesting question in my mind, esp in the era of effective covid vaxxes: we do not say that someone who may or may not have influenza should necessarily skip class, esp if their symptoms are mild, and we do not have a flu test protocol either. Mild cold symptoms could of course just be a mild cold. Exactly for how long should we make anyone who has symptoms that might be covid isolate from the world? Remember that in the world of low-wage workers, the time of (often mandatory) paid covid time off is long gone, and skipping work because of what might be a cold could be financially disastrous.
To the bolded: yes on all fronts
Here in Oz, we don't have to isolate if we're covid positive. I don't know the rules in the States.
Wrt RATS, often operator error is the reason for the negative result. In other words, the person self testing doesn't swab correctly.
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 21, 2022, 09:22:25 PM
Hmmm... this brings up an interesting question in my mind, esp in the era of effective covid vaxxes: we do not say that someone who may or may not have influenza should necessarily skip class, esp if their symptoms are mild, and we do not have a flu test protocol either. Mild cold symptoms could of course just be a mild cold. Exactly for how long should we make anyone who has symptoms that might be covid isolate from the world? Remember that in the world of low-wage workers, the time of (often mandatory) paid covid time off is long gone, and skipping work because of what might be a cold could be financially disastrous.
The real solution is to do what, I understand, has been common protocol in east Asia for a long time, starting well before Covid: if you fell unwell, just stick a mask on your own face! Maybe it's a cold, maybe it's allergies, maybe it's the beginnings of a flu. Doesn't matter: Keep your filthy breath germs to yourself and you minimize the spread whatever you've got.
Also paid sick leave, so minimum wage workers don't have to come to work sick. Because, remember, when you're sick you're not just a risk to others. You also feel lousy and shouldn't have to be flipping burgers or scrubbing toilets.
Of course, that will never fly here. People wouldn't even mask up to protect themselves, and federal minimum wage is still $7.25 an hour, ffs.
(It persistently boggled my mind how people would blithely say, 'Oh, I have asthma, I'm exempt, I don't have to mask up.' My friend, are you not concerned that asthma makes it that much more important for you to protect yourself if at all possible, because you're that much more at risk if you get sick? Maybe you'll get attacks if you mask up, I don't know. But my impression was that many of these people were using their diagnoses as an excuse to avoid a tedious requirement, rather than genuinely unable to mask up because of the asthma or whatever.)
I also wish the outcome of COVID testing and masking had been to encourage people to wear a mask when they exhibit cold symptoms. I woke up with cold symptoms last week but desperately needed to run errands. Took a rapid test (negative) and ran my errands with a mask. Is it unpleasant to have a stuffy nose and a mask? Yes. Is it better for me to be uncomfortable for half an hour if it means someone immune compromised might not catch my cold? Unquestionably. To me it's polite, not political.
AR.
Ah, it is that time of year.
"Fishprof,
I would like to speak with you regarding my failure warning. Do you have time this week? Thank you.
Sincerely,
Confused Student"
"Confused student,
You've done none of the lecture or video quizzes. and 6 of 29 reading quizzes. What is it you would like to discuss?
Fishprof"
Quote from: FishProf on October 25, 2022, 02:13:12 PM
Ah, it is that time of year.
"Fishprof,
I would like to speak with you regarding my failure warning. Do you have time this week? Thank you.
Sincerely,
Confused Student"
"Confused student,
You've done none of the lecture or video quizzes. and 6 of 29 reading quizzes. What is it you would like to discuss?
Fishprof"
Wow. Maybe they want advice on building a time machine?
I'm going to be getting emails as soon as exam grades are posted. I have some VERY high-stress "I've never had less than an A grade on anything ever!" students.
I better find that box of tissues.
<Channeling an ex-colleague> Never provide tissues, they encourage tears.
PITA grad student email at 10:45am: I'm so confused about [concept I have already met with them about and provided written feedback to everyone so they can revise their work]
OMY email at 12:47pm: [Email telling her exactly where she can locate the feedback and copy and pasting the feedback into the email]
PITA student at 12:49pm: So is this part not right? [screen shot of original submission]
OMY: [turns off email to focus on grading and to avoid sending an email of what I really want to say]
It is clear she just wants me to tell her exactly what to write. I, however, want them think. We clearly have disparate goals in this interaction.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on October 26, 2022, 09:59:44 AM
PITA grad student email at 10:45am: I'm so confused about [concept I have already met with them about and provided written feedback to everyone so they can revise their work]
OMY email at 12:47pm: [Email telling her exactly where she can locate the feedback and copy and pasting the feedback into the email]
PITA student at 12:49pm: So is this part not right? [screen shot of original submission]
OMY: [turns off email to focus on grading and to avoid sending an email of what I really want to say]
It is clear she just wants me to tell her exactly what to write. I, however, want them think. We clearly have disparate goals in this interaction.
Grad student in 2nd installment of dissertation seminar has topic and wants me to choose a method for him. I referred him to his coursework in qual and quant. Rant: some students in these seminars and flail around and make up stuff without going back and looking at what they did in their methods classes.
Stu claims to have uploaded the wrong file for take-home essay question, which is usually done as a play for extra time. However, Stu has a habit of adding notes describing Stu's submission and the note suggests it was complete, so I am going to give Stu the benefit of the doubt and accept the correct file.
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 21, 2022, 09:22:25 PM
Hmmm... this brings up an interesting question in my mind, esp in the era of effective covid vaxxes: we do not say that someone who may or may not have influenza should necessarily skip class, esp if their symptoms are mild, and we do not have a flu test protocol either. Mild cold symptoms could of course just be a mild cold. Exactly for how long should we make anyone who has symptoms that might be covid isolate from the world? Remember that in the world of low-wage workers, the time of (often mandatory) paid covid time off is long gone, and skipping work because of what might be a cold could be financially disastrous.
So back during the swine flu pandemic, many Canadian universities said that students no longer needed a medical certificate if they missed class, exams, labs, etc. They didn't want ill students spreading the virus and wanted students to rest and recover instead of dragging themselves to a physician or health services. Students who were genuinely ill did fine, students who weren't but used it as an excuse ended up doing poorly anyhow. Many now have the same attitude with COVID, especially since even symptomatic people aren't testing positive until day 3-6 with the new variants. I'd rather students with any symptoms or close contact with positive COVID individuals stay home. But I'm still wearing an FFP2/N95 whenever I'm outside my home. Haven't had COVID and don't want to.
Stu: I got a unsatisfactory midterm report and want to meet with you.
Me: I'm always happy to meet! Please sign up for a time during my office hours (lists hours), or if you can't do those times, send a list of available times.
Stu: I can't meet during your office hours, here are my times: Lists times that overlap with my office hours.
This happens surprisingly often.
Hi Dr. Mode,
I was wondering if I can do anything to get my grade up at all I understand the assignments and stuff I just haven't had good study habits from highschool and I'm really trying my best to pass so I was wondering if there's any extra credit or anything I can do
Stu
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Fantasy response... Why would you do extra credit work when you're not doing the regular work? Oh! Shame on me. What you REALLY want is points for doing nothing so you can make up for the fact you currently have a grade of 45% in a class that has a median grade of 79%, and there's no way in h*ll you're going to pass. It's week 12, you haven't responded to any of my earlier feedback and suggestions for improving your grade, and now you're wanting to pass? With three weeks of class left? Ugh.
Actual response... I told him there was no extra credit in this class and gave him the link to our student resource center where he can get help with his study habits.
Student: The video is wrong. I can't do the assignment.
Dr. OMY: The video is correct. Everything you need for the assignment is recorded.
Student: Oh, I see. The [video system] has the video cued to the middle
Dr. OMY: To do the assignment, start all videos at the beginning.
My assignment instructions are incredibly detailed. Do I now need to add: Start the videos at the beginning to see the entire [task]?
This semester cannot end fast enough.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on November 09, 2022, 04:40:31 PM
Student: The video is wrong. I can't do the assignment.
Dr. OMY: The video is correct. Everything you need for the assignment is recorded.
Student: Oh, I see. The [video system] has the video cued to the middle
Dr. OMY: To do the assignment, start all videos at the beginning.
My assignment instructions are incredibly detailed. Do I now need to add: Start the videos at the beginning to see the entire [task]?
This semester cannot end fast enough.
Another digital native...
A student said they were in a "minor car incident" the morning of an afternoon lab and asked to have the day off.
I said they either needed a police note or to go to class.
Guess who decided to go to class.
This one really has all the classics. For context, Stu lost a lot of points on an assignment for copying directly from the papers they were meant to be summarizing in their own words. Emphasis my own:
QuoteThanks for the response. I know I could view the turnitin report, however, I did not think 24% was much overlap at all, and I didn't know the criteria for the overlapping. I spent so much time on this assignment and tried to paraphrase as much as I could. I am definitely going to utilize office hours this week for some assistance with the next 2 assignments. In addition, I was wondering if there is absolutely anything I can do for any extra credit or anything like that to possibly bring my grade up. I really need to pass this class, and I feel as though I deserve to because of the amount of effort I put in.
Quote from: Puget on November 27, 2022, 04:47:10 PM
This one really has all the classics. For context, Stu lost a lot of points on an assignment for copying directly from the papers they were meant to be summarizing in their own words. Emphasis my own:
QuoteThanks for the response. I know I could view the turnitin report, however, I did not think 24% was much overlap at all, and I didn't know the criteria for the overlapping. I spent so much time on this assignment and tried to paraphrase as much as I could. I am definitely going to utilize office hours this week for some assistance with the next 2 assignments. In addition, I was wondering if there is absolutely anything I can do for any extra credit or anything like that to possibly bring my grade up. I really need to pass this class, and I feel as though I deserve to because of the amount of effort I put in.
I can relate. I have a couple of students who are trying their damnedest to fail and succeeding! I have heard their excuses (everything except actually doing the work) throughout the semester and I anticipate more when they get their final grades.
Doctoral student AWOL for a week from an online class; then didn't respond to my "where are you" email for another 5 days. Submitted same response for both the discussion and the first assignment. Maybe thought I didn't read them?
I am getting so many emails along the lines of:
Quote
The presentation guidelines say we need to do [task A]. We did [task A]. Is that OK?/can you look at it for us/did we do it right?
and
Quote
The presentation guidelines say we need to do [task A]. We did [other thing]. Is that OK?/can you look at it for us/did we do it right?
Not sure which is worse!
Today, I received the second email this semester that indicated a student planned on attending my graduate-level course while driving. I don't remember anyone ever emailing me about this this previously. I assume it is partially due to the hyflex model I'm required to use (despite my courses being designated in-person). Anyone else getting these?
Quote from: OneMoreYear on November 28, 2022, 07:13:31 PM
Today, I received the second email this semester that indicated a student planned on attending my graduate-level course while driving. I don't remember anyone ever emailing me about this this previously. I assume it is partially due to the hyflex model I'm required to use (despite my courses being designated in-person). Anyone else getting these?
Isn't this illegal in your state? If the student has an accident while "attending class" on the road, wouldn't the institution be held responsible?
Perhaps copy someone higher up when responding to Stu?
What's up with grad students these days!?
Yikes! That is incredibly dangerous!
You might tell the students that this is:
1. Not safe
2. They will not be able to fully participate
And kick this up the chain of command. I this the "hyflex/record everything/livestream" needs to end, especially for a GRADUATE course.
I told the student that they either needed to be in class or on a computer/tablet virtually b/c they would need to see the visual material I am showing and that their group would be discussing. Student attended virtually; I am assuming not while driving, as they participated in the chat.
I lost the battle on the "hyflex everything" a long time ago. My colleagues view it as an equity issue. I had to offer a skills lab class in hyflex this semester, which has almost broken me given the level of work. Next semester, I teach stats, and I'm sure I'm going to get students not attending class in-person to practice using the analysis software on the computers during class. I'm almost ready to force them to hand calculate everything.
Not one but several emails from students claiming to have tested positive for COVID.
Response, same as all semester: Sorry to hear that! Please see the instructions on [CMS] for providing your documentation letter from [university testing and contact tracing office].
Students: radio silence.
Earlier in the semester, students were readily providing their documentation letters (which we ask for not only to verify excused absences, but to make sure they actually do report positive tests to the university). I'm sure it's just a complete coincidence that students are having a hard time providing those letters the week after Thanksgiving break.
Puget, I'm surprised your Uni is still tracking Covid. We gave up on that over the summer.
I miss the days of "take the [wellness] survey EVERY DAY and then do what it says". Now, students are supposed to remember that IF they feel sick or test positive (or test negative) they are supposed to take [other survey] that is basically hidden in the depths of the university website. Then they get an email that tells them what to do: isolate for X days, or no need to isolate at this time.
I'm tired of students sending me a picture of a positive COVID test. One, I don't need to see your medical information. Two, there is NO WAY to know that the test is from you. Three, that also doesn't tell me the dates you need to isolate.
Now I do what Puget does "Sorry to hear that! Please fill out [other survey] and email me the reply."
Quote from: mythbuster on November 30, 2022, 08:47:07 AM
Puget, I'm surprised your Uni is still tracking Covid. We gave up on that over the summer.
We stopped doing surveillance testing, but they are still supposed to go to the health center for testing if symptomatic and report positive rapid tests.
The thing is, if they just claimed to have the flu or something they wouldn't need to send documentation to be excused from class, so lying about a positive covid test is really stupid.
I reached out to a student who missed a bunch of classes in a row and got this response:
Hello Dr.[misspelled]
I was feeling sick this week I had the glue and I just started feeling well today yes I'm trying to keep up. If there's for m to do please let me know
Quote from: sinenomine on November 30, 2022, 04:57:03 PM
I reached out to a student who missed a bunch of classes in a row and got this response:
Hello Dr.[misspelled]
I was feeling sick this week I had the glue and I just started feeling well today yes I'm trying to keep up. If there's for m to do please let me know
I mean, having the glue, if it was applied to one's posterior, would certainly make it hard to get up and go to class.
Ha!
Really needed that!
M.
Quote from: sinenomine on November 30, 2022, 04:57:03 PM
I reached out to a student who missed a bunch of classes in a row and got this response:
Hello Dr.[misspelled]
I was feeling sick this week I had the glue and I just started feeling well today yes I'm trying to keep up. If there's for m to do please let me know
Sniffing glue is bad.
Quote from: sinenomine on November 30, 2022, 04:57:03 PM
I reached out to a student who missed a bunch of classes in a row and got this response:
Hello Dr.[misspelled]
I was feeling sick this week I had the glue and I just started feeling well today yes I'm trying to keep up. If there's for m to do please let me know
Well you've got to admit, the glue will really slow you down.
Quote from: apl68 on December 01, 2022, 07:43:04 AM
Quote from: sinenomine on November 30, 2022, 04:57:03 PM
I reached out to a student who missed a bunch of classes in a row and got this response:
Hello Dr.[misspelled]
I was feeling sick this week I had the glue and I just started feeling well today yes I'm trying to keep up. If there's for m to do please let me know
Well you've got to admit, the glue will really slow you down.
It leaves me feeling a bit stuck.
Quote from: dr_evil on December 01, 2022, 07:54:34 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 01, 2022, 07:43:04 AM
Quote from: sinenomine on November 30, 2022, 04:57:03 PM
I reached out to a student who missed a bunch of classes in a row and got this response:
Hello Dr.[misspelled]
I was feeling sick this week I had the glue and I just started feeling well today yes I'm trying to keep up. If there's for m to do please let me know
Well you've got to admit, the glue will really slow you down.
It leaves me feeling a bit stuck.
On the other hand, it's helpful for putting yourself back together.
^Unrelated.
I have an excellent high schol senior student of good character who, after a very difficult lesson yesterday, acknowledged his own shortcomings, forgave me mine, and made space for us both to do better.
I'm archiving his text; encouraging to have when so many of his age must be disparaged (as they are, rightfully, on this thread; they're not all angels...) and thankful to have an opportunity to teach him.
M.
Quote
Hi Mr. [first name]
I can't find the study guide. I've looked everywhere! What do I do?
[find at finding things student]
It's on the LMS. It's posted in the module for the week you have the exam. It's also posted as a link in the Announcements page. It's even attached to the email that was sent to you with said Announcement.
Also, your exam is TODAY. "Better late than never" may not apply to studying for a Final Exam.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 02, 2022, 10:35:30 AM
Quote
Hi Mr. [first name]
I can't find the study guide. I've looked everywhere! What do I do?
[find at finding things student]
It's on the LMS. It's posted in the module for the week you have the exam. It's also posted as a link in the Announcements page. It's even attached to the email that was sent to you with said Announcement.
Also, your exam is TODAY. "Better late than never" may not apply to studying for a Final Exam.
I suspect there is a very strong correlation between not being able to find the study guide and not looking for it until the day of the exam.
Quote from: Puget on December 02, 2022, 10:38:13 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 02, 2022, 10:35:30 AM
Quote
Hi Mr. [first name]
I can't find the study guide. I've looked everywhere! What do I do?
[find at finding things student]
It's on the LMS. It's posted in the module for the week you have the exam. It's also posted as a link in the Announcements page. It's even attached to the email that was sent to you with said Announcement.
Also, your exam is TODAY. "Better late than never" may not apply to studying for a Final Exam.
I suspect there is a very strong correlation between not being able to find the study guide and not looking for it until the day of the exam.
Let's write an IRB and get a silly publication about the correlation between if/when a student downloads study materials and their grade.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 02, 2022, 11:19:27 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 02, 2022, 10:38:13 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 02, 2022, 10:35:30 AM
Quote
Hi Mr. [first name]
I can't find the study guide. I've looked everywhere! What do I do?
[find at finding things student]
It's on the LMS. It's posted in the module for the week you have the exam. It's also posted as a link in the Announcements page. It's even attached to the email that was sent to you with said Announcement.
Also, your exam is TODAY. "Better late than never" may not apply to studying for a Final Exam.
I suspect there is a very strong correlation between not being able to find the study guide and not looking for it until the day of the exam.
Let's write an IRB and get a silly publication about the correlation between if/when a student downloads study materials and their grade.
I have strong pilot data for this. . .
PITA grad student email at 3:30pm Friday: I am struggling with [written assignment]. Can we meet this weekend for you to look at what I've written so far?
Dr. OMY response so far : . . . . .
I cannot compose an email that would not get me fired at this point because they are the only student who makes requests like this, and I am just so tired of dealing with them.
Suddenly "Monday, Monday..." is running through my head.
[sent via Canvas inbox]
Hey Dr. Mode, this is Stu. Are we having lecture today or just lab?
Stu was already in Canvas, if they had clicked just one more link, the one labeled "Lecture - Week 15" then they would have noticed that yes, we do indeed have lecture today. Heck, they didn't even need to click the link to see that there was an actual lecture this week, just the fact that a "Lecture - Week 15" page existed should have been a clue. Ugh. I did reply that yes, there was lecture today, and the topic was posted on Canvas. I'm SO tired. Three more days of class. That's all I need to get through, three more days. I'm choosing to ignore finals week for the moment.
Last week student emails with no introduction or greeting:
"I am going to work from home had a hard time focusing last time in class."
I just replied that they should make sure they are aware of the attendance policy as per the syllabus. Yesterday the student sent the same email right before class, I just ignored it.
Students in one of my classes do oral presentations the last two class meetings of the semester; this is laid out on the syllabus, discussed many times in class, and they sign up for the days they'll present. Three missed their presentation slots this morning. One emailed after I posted the zero in the gradebook to say she thought her presentation was a week from now. I pointed out in my reply that classes are over by then. I suspect she's claiming calendar confusion in a vain attempt to cover her misstep. Won't work, alas.
I have received a flurry of email messages from students asking about selecting a topic for their term paper 2 days before the paper is due. Not coincidentally, this class isn't performing very well.
This week's episode of "Play Stupid Games, Win Stupid Prizes!" brought to you by Stu who skipped the Final Exam.
Stu didn't take the Final Exam. I emailed to say "contact me ASAP", expecting them to say they were sick/car crash/dropping the class/ANYTHING reasonable.
Nope.
Stu told me they CHOSE to not take the Final Exam so they could study for their other classes. And they would like to take a make-up exam.
The Final Exam was online, open-note, and available to start any time they wanted during a 20 hour window.
If Stu had asked/told me before hand, I would have said no. If Stu had an emergency, I would have allowed a make-up with documentation.
Congratulations Stu, you've learned the hard way that choices have consequences. They will still pass, but there is no way they are earning an A.
Well, there we are:
Quote from: Stu DentHi Parasaurolophus ,
Hope your doing well,
My name is Stu Dent and my student number is #. I took Phil 101- 02 course with you and I can see it's total 68 but if I count myself it's more than 75 . Please recheack my total .
Thank You
Quote from: Parasaurolophus
Hi Stu,
(10*.1)+(55*.3)+(90*.2)+(75*.2)+(86.67*.2) = 67.83
Take care,
-Parasaurolophus
Quote from: Stu DentI still didn't understand the calculations but I appreciate your reply . Thank You .
This from a student who wants a higher grade on his final project... I'd emailed him after he said his grade was 'wrong' because he worked hard on the project, and told him to look at the rubric on Canvas and he could see exactly what he missed, along with comments explaining the errors. It's a very similar rubric to the one I use for almost all classwork and homework.
"ma'am I seen this rubric multiple times. I don't agree with that is what im saying. What I was saying is Id personally want a more broken down grade of it because I do not agree with it. I want to see broken down point for point because it is that serious to me. As in I got less than 50 percent when I submitted and put hours in and find no possibility that even if I made multiple errors id get less than a 50 percents on a final grading for the course. Dr. [our associate dean who gets to deal with this stuff] mentioned to me I needed to speak with you before I put the appeal in so i figured id at least plead what I meant to you before I went through with it. I strongly dont agree with my grade and regardless if im somehow wrong im still going to go through with the process because I dont agree and it's already unfair for me. Its nothing against anyone or anything in specific."
I told him he was free to pursue the grade appeal and even told him how to do it. I'll make sure if he does pursue it to include the information that during lab time to work on the final project, he typically arrived 10-20 minutes late and left 20-30 minutes early in the 4 two-hour labs that were devoted to working on the project. And I have examples of what his project should have looked like when completed (the same examples I showed in class), and will point out where every single one of his errors was, just like is noted on the oh so unfair rubric. I also invited him to stop by my office and we could go through the rubric one item at a time, but he hasn't taken me up on that opportunity. What I wanted to do was ask him if he was sure he wanted to expose his basic incompetence, failure to follow instructions, and generally p*ss poor attitude to everyone on the appeals committee, but I guess he does.
Well...maybe it will be a learning experience. Sometimes people insist on learning stuff the hard way.
Dear (multiple) students,
Stop ending your emails with "thank you for your understanding." You are assuming facts not in evidence.
Quote from: Anon1787 on December 07, 2022, 12:11:46 PM
I have received a flurry of email messages from students asking about selecting a topic for their term paper 2 days before the paper is due. Not coincidentally, this class isn't performing very well.
And last night I once again had my perennial nightmare about it being most of the way through the semester, and suddenly remembering that I was enrolled in classes, and struggling to remember what they were and what I was supposed to be doing in them.
You don't suppose some of these students are psychics who are pushing their justified anxiety over pulling stuff like that off onto innocent people, so they themselves can sleep better? It might explain some things....
Quote from: OneMoreYear on January 08, 2023, 02:14:16 PM
Dear (multiple) students,
Stop ending your emails with "thank you for your understanding." You are assuming facts not in evidence.
So much of this here too!
"I won't be in class in week 1, but I'll make it up in week 2."
No, actually you can't. You can be absent, but that means you have earned a 0 on the missed assignments.
Quote from: apl68 on January 09, 2023, 07:49:51 AM
Quote from: Anon1787 on December 07, 2022, 12:11:46 PM
I have received a flurry of email messages from students asking about selecting a topic for their term paper 2 days before the paper is due. Not coincidentally, this class isn't performing very well.
And last night I once again had my perennial nightmare about it being most of the way through the semester, and suddenly remembering that I was enrolled in classes, and struggling to remember what they were and what I was supposed to be doing in them.
You don't suppose some of these students are psychics who are pushing their justified anxiety over pulling stuff like that off onto innocent people, so they themselves can sleep better? It might explain some things....
Same with the students who just think the final is on the wrong day and miss it. It really isn't a mistake a student paying attention should make, but since it is an actual nightmare of mine I always end up letting them take the exam.
THis is an actual favorite, I think.
Quote
Dear Ergative,
Thank you so much for the admission to your course!
I was wondering if there is room for more people 😅. I have 3 friends who are very eager to join it. If not, then I totally understand.
thank you for everything.
I should emphasize that this is a quantitative course taught in a very humanities oriented discipline. It is not a prerequisite for anything. It is never overfull. No one needs it to satisfy any requirement. Usually it struggles to recruit from a student population who typically look at a square root and run the other way screaming. It may start the semester with 10-15 students and end with 8 who stuck it out. This semester I have 19 registered and doubt whether I'll keep more than 12 or so. Having THREE people request to join based on word of mouth is, frankly, unheard of.
I'm actually a little perplexed, but, hey, if those three people attend only one lecture and learn nothing more than the existence of a spurious correlation or confounding variable, the world is a little bit smarter.
Quote from: ergative on January 10, 2023, 04:24:45 AM
THis is an actual favorite, I think.
Quote
Dear Ergative,
Thank you so much for the admission to your course!
I was wondering if there is room for more people 😅. I have 3 friends who are very eager to join it. If not, then I totally understand.
thank you for everything.
I should emphasize that this is a quantitative course taught in a very humanities oriented discipline. It is not a prerequisite for anything. It is never overfull. No one needs it to satisfy any requirement. Usually it struggles to recruit from a student population who typically look at a square root and run the other way screaming. It may start the semester with 10-15 students and end with 8 who stuck it out. This semester I have 19 registered and doubt whether I'll keep more than 12 or so. Having THREE people request to join based on word of mouth is, frankly, unheard of.
I'm actually a little perplexed, but, hey, if those three people attend only one lecture and learn nothing more than the existence of a spurious correlation or confounding variable, the world is a little bit smarter.
Maybe they have access to your old tests?
Take it as a win!
Maybe they all need the credits and are happy to have a friend in the class. At least one of them will be really engaged too.
My grumble:
The class is full. I emailed everyone on the waitlist to say "this class is full. In the [very unlikely] event that someone drops, the Registrar will email the first waitlist student. You can also register for [equivalent course]"
Stop emailing to ask if you can have a seat. I cannot add you*. Find another class.
*so glad I don't have the ability/access/authority to add or drop. Waitlists are automatically handled and we have enrollment specialists to handle the rare, complicated situations.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 10, 2023, 05:46:26 AM
Quote from: ergative on January 10, 2023, 04:24:45 AM
THis is an actual favorite, I think.
Quote
Dear Ergative,
Thank you so much for the admission to your course!
I was wondering if there is room for more people 😅. I have 3 friends who are very eager to join it. If not, then I totally understand.
thank you for everything.
I should emphasize that this is a quantitative course taught in a very humanities oriented discipline. It is not a prerequisite for anything. It is never overfull. No one needs it to satisfy any requirement. Usually it struggles to recruit from a student population who typically look at a square root and run the other way screaming. It may start the semester with 10-15 students and end with 8 who stuck it out. This semester I have 19 registered and doubt whether I'll keep more than 12 or so. Having THREE people request to join based on word of mouth is, frankly, unheard of.
I'm actually a little perplexed, but, hey, if those three people attend only one lecture and learn nothing more than the existence of a spurious correlation or confounding variable, the world is a little bit smarter.
Maybe they have access to your old tests?
Hah--actually my institution publishes all old tests through the library, so we have to write new ones each year. It's an enormous pain, but it does ensure that this isn't a problem.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 10, 2023, 06:28:34 AM
Take it as a win!
Maybe they all need the credits and are happy to have a friend in the class. At least one of them will be really engaged too.
Thank you, I shall!
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 16, 2022, 01:29:30 PM
Well, there we are:
Quote from: Stu DentHi Parasaurolophus ,
Hope your doing well,
My name is Stu Dent and my student number is #. I took Phil 101- 02 course with you and I can see it's total 68 but if I count myself it's more than 75 . Please recheack my total .
Thank You
Quote from: Parasaurolophus
Hi Stu,
(10*.1)+(55*.3)+(90*.2)+(75*.2)+(86.67*.2) = 67.83
Take care,
-Parasaurolophus
Quote from: Stu DentI still didn't understand the calculations but I appreciate your reply . Thank You .
I very much hope this wasn't a math class.
/sardonic eyebrow back down
An actual favorite from a former student:
QuoteHappy New Year! I hope you're doing well. I saw on the [lab] website that there are a lot of exciting publications and theses happening. I am about halfway through my MSW/MPH at [fancy-pants university], while also doing part-time research assistant work about [important topic]. I have thought of my time doing Honors Thesis work with you many times, as the skills I gained helped me so much with my writing abilities and research courses and work. Thank you again for all that you taught me during that time - it has continued to be so valuable for me.
I keep a file of these types of emails to re-read when I need a boost. They make everything worth it.
Quote from: Puget on January 11, 2023, 08:43:04 AM
An actual favorite from a former student:
QuoteHappy New Year! I hope you're doing well. I saw on the [lab] website that there are a lot of exciting publications and theses happening. I am about halfway through my MSW/MPH at [fancy-pants university], while also doing part-time research assistant work about [important topic]. I have thought of my time doing Honors Thesis work with you many times, as the skills I gained helped me so much with my writing abilities and research courses and work. Thank you again for all that you taught me during that time - it has continued to be so valuable for me.
I keep a file of these types of emails to re-read when I need a boost. They make everything worth it.
This is wonderful! Thanks for sharing and congrats to you on your amazing mentorship being recognized!
Got two nearly identical emails:
QuoteI started feeling sick so I didnt want to risk going to class incase I had the flu or covid.
Both students were supposed to be in an 8:00am class today. Both are saying they are happy to go to a section later today.
Amazing how they recovered so quickly.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 11, 2023, 01:24:12 PM
Got two nearly identical emails:
QuoteI started feeling sick so I didnt want to risk going to class incase I had the flu or covid.
Both students were supposed to be in an 8:00am class today. Both are saying they are happy to go to a section later today.
Amazing how they recovered so quickly.
Tell them no. "If you were too sick to come to class this morning, you are likely still contagious. See the Health Service."
Quote from: FishProf on January 12, 2023, 09:47:56 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 11, 2023, 01:24:12 PM
Got two nearly identical emails:
QuoteI started feeling sick so I didnt want to risk going to class incase I had the flu or covid.
Both students were supposed to be in an 8:00am class today. Both are saying they are happy to go to a section later today.
Amazing how they recovered so quickly.
Tell them no. "If you were too sick to come to class this morning, you are likely still contagious. See the Health Service."
That's exactly what I did. "Show me a note that you are sick and cannot attend or you have earned a 0."
And I had a different student send me a doctor's note to say they were sick & couldn't come to class. But the note was from LAST January.
Really? Did you think I wouldn't bother to look for your name & the date(s)?
Perhaps I should add "Dr. [Geneticist], who didn't fall off the turnip truck this morning" to my email line.
Student: "The assignment directions say to do ABC but can I do XYZ instead?"
Answer?: "Sure, just do whatever, there is no purpose to the assignment as written."
Quote from: Cheerful on January 17, 2023, 04:03:11 PM
Student: "The assignment directions say to do ABC but can I do XYZ instead?"
Answer?: "Sure, just do whatever, there is no purpose to the assignment as written."
I'm sending a lot of "read the instructions", "the schedule in the syllabus is correct", "the due dates are listed in the syllabus" emails.
And some of these are to Graduate students.
I told the class IN PERSON and via the CMS websites that "I was copying a bunch of material from the previous semester and you should IGNORE all the announcements that pop up UNTIL I tell you the course shell is ready".
Less than 5-min later: "I got a message that [assignment X] was due on 18Dec22. Is that correct or is it a mistake on your part?"
Yes, sweetie, you missed an assignment that was due BEFORE this class started. Buckle up.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 19, 2023, 04:01:00 PM
Quote from: Cheerful on January 17, 2023, 04:03:11 PM
Student: "The assignment directions say to do ABC but can I do XYZ instead?"
Answer?: "Sure, just do whatever, there is no purpose to the assignment as written."
I'm sending a lot of "read the instructions", "the schedule in the syllabus is correct", "the due dates are listed in the syllabus" emails.
And some of these are to Graduate students.
I see we all share the same students. I just received a "If I finished my lab and submitted results on Wednesday, do I have to come in today?" email, and it is posted on Canvas, and I announced on Wednesday, that if they finished, they did not have to come in today.
I have a simple assignment for completion credit on the LMS. It says to copy the statement, paste it into the submission text box, and type in name and date. This is to make sure the students put in writing that they reviewed the syllabus and agree to its policies. It was due yesterday. A student emailed me today:
I do not understand what to do. I printed the paper but since it is an online class, I do not know how to submit it to you.
What paper? Then I saw the student had written a similar question in the text box instead of just following directions. It took three emails back and forth for them to figure it out. This is a graduate student!
Sounds like someone who does not have strong English language skills. If this is a native English speaker, there is no hope.
Quote from: FishProf on January 20, 2023, 03:32:46 AM
I told the class IN PERSON and via the CMS websites that "I was copying a bunch of material from the previous semester and you should IGNORE all the announcements that pop up UNTIL I tell you the course shell is ready".
Less than 5-min later: "I got a message that [assignment X] was due on 18Dec22. Is that correct or is it a mistake on your part?"
Yes, sweetie, you missed an assignment that was due BEFORE this class started. Buckle up.
Oh yeah, I get that kind of thing constantly. I think some students think of my class as a sort of Kafkaesque bureaucracy and don't understand that it's actually just me at the controls behind the curtain. If I say ignore what the CMS says, then ignore it.
My current favorite:
"
Good Evening Professor,
I hate to be the guy who emails too much but I have a couple of questions. I took the [History of the world] quiz earlier today and didn't do to well. I listened to the 2 1/2 hr lecture and took a couple of notes and was not prepared for the questions. I focused on the content around [class title] figuring that would be the focus, and there wasn't a single question about them.
I spoke to another classmate [Becky] and she stated that all she has on her blackboard is the syllabus quiz and some PDF slides. I showed her this screenshot and she said she had none of it:"
I am a little gobsmacked at this.
1) What do you want me to do about it?
2) That's a HER problem, so MYOB.
Quote from: FishProf on January 24, 2023, 01:06:22 PM
My current favorite:
"
Good Evening Professor,
I hate to be the guy who emails too much but I have a couple of questions. I took the [History of the world] quiz earlier today and didn't do to well. I listened to the 2 1/2 hr lecture and took a couple of notes and was not prepared for the questions. I focused on the content around [class title] figuring that would be the focus, and there wasn't a single question about them.
I spoke to another classmate [Becky] and she stated that all she has on her blackboard is the syllabus quiz and some PDF slides. I showed her this screenshot and she said she had none of it:"
I am a little gobsmacked at this.
1) What do you want me to do about it?
2) That's a HER problem, so MYOB.
He says he has "a couple of questions" and then fails to ask a single one?
I'm wondering if the implied question for the statement about the quiz is how to prepare for the next one? Like, "I did such-and-such and it wasn't enough. What else should I be doing?" Although, if that's the case, it seems like he should be able to figure out his own answer: pay attention to the
whole lecture and maybe take more than "a couple" of notes?
I have a student was was absent in Week 1 and got the online make-up version of the lab worksheet.
They earned 8/20 points, mostly from not actually answering the questions. They are begging for a second chance.
QuoteCan I can do a second attempt , is that not possible? I don't want my grade to be affected by this. Or maybe I can resubmit and you can still give me a late penalty ? Sorry I am just worried about my grade
Nope.
Welcome to college, student who is now learning that due dates & deadlines are real.
I've had more late-adds this spring than usual, all emailing me with a version of, "I'll turn in the things I missed." I go heavy on graded work in the first two weeks, and I have a no late work policy for a reason: just because you couldn't get your s&%t together and register on time doesn't give you a free pass, and if you're just today emailing me to tell me (not ask) that you'll catch up everything by Monday, doesn't work for me. (Besides, in 20+ years of teaching, I've had exactly TWO late-enrolling students who've ever passed any of my classes, not because of my policies, but because they're similarly unable to get their acts together enough to actually do/pass the work.)
12Jan23 - I request accommodation forms from students.
16Jan23 - Classes start and I repeat request.
Yesterday I get this:
"Hello! This is [Name that does not match the roster] emailing you. I have a request to ask of you. Can we set up a Zoom meeting to discuss me receiving extra time on my quizzes? I currently only have 15 minutes to take the quizzes. IN my Accommodation Letter (sent January 26th, 2023) It says I get extra time on my quizzes and exams. I demand (emphasis mine) to know why I am not being granted accommodations."
CCd to my chair and the head of Student Services.
My reply (at exactly 24hrs later per my syllabus): (Also CCd to my chair and the head of Student Services.)
"[Name on Accommodation Letter]
You should know that the BlackBoard accommodation system requires
putting in a time exemption for EVERY assignment, for EVERY student who
has an accommodation. That takes some time.
It is, for you, now done.
How to tell if you are getting the extra time: For your accommodation, I
take the allotted time (say, 15 minutes) double it per the
accommodation, and THEN raise it to the next highest prime number. So
15 minutes becomes 31, 20 minutes becomes 41.
For ALL quizzes, your time allowed should be a Prime Number. If you
find on that IS NOT, don't take it. Email me about it and I will fix it.
Best
Fishprof"
Just for Fun: Guess who wasn't in class the first week....
Got this one today:
Quote
Hi Ms. [Geneticist]
I am emailing you to ask if I could take the biology midterm coming up before or after Friday. This Friday my family planned a trip and missing it would be devastating. I am okay with taking it anytime besides Friday.
[trip stu]
1. Wrong instructor, I am your [Basketweaving lab] instructor, not the [Intro to baskets lecture] instructor.
2. Dr. [actual instructor] doesn't reschedule exams for ANY reason. They'll pro-rate your score out of the other exams if you had a documented emergency.
3. It would be even more devastating to earn a 0 on the exam.
Life is full of choices, choose wisely.
Quote
Hi stu here. I hope u are fine. I just saw my quiz result and i re checked my answers and many of them are correct but over there its not correct. Its my humble request if u can recheck my quiz. Thank u
I dunno what they mean by 're-checked', but they're marked incorrect because they are incorrect.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 05, 2023, 09:12:41 AM
Quote
Hi stu here. I hope u are fine. I just saw my quiz result and i re checked my answers and many of them are correct but over there its not correct. Its my humble request if u can recheck my quiz. Thank u
I dunno what they mean by 're-checked', but they're marked incorrect because they are incorrect.
I once had a student who insisted, in email, that Blackboard was randomly marking correct answers as incorrect. When I explained that no one else (including me while testing the quiz) was experiencing this 'bug,' and noted a specific answer that was in fact incorrect, they stopped emailing me altogether and dropped a week or two later. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Quote from: AmLitHist on January 27, 2023, 07:49:38 AM
I've had more late-adds this spring than usual, all emailing me with a version of, "I'll turn in the things I missed." I go heavy on graded work in the first two weeks, and I have a no late work policy for a reason: just because you couldn't get your s&%t together and register on time doesn't give you a free pass, and if you're just today emailing me to tell me (not ask) that you'll catch up everything by Monday, doesn't work for me. (Besides, in 20+ years of teaching, I've had exactly TWO late-enrolling students who've ever passed any of my classes, not because of my policies, but because they're similarly unable to get their acts together enough to actually do/pass the work.)
These are students who registered after the add drop period, or during it? I have to give special permission for anyone adding after the add drop period.
Quote from: Caracal on February 07, 2023, 04:00:05 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on January 27, 2023, 07:49:38 AM
I've had more late-adds this spring than usual, all emailing me with a version of, "I'll turn in the things I missed." I go heavy on graded work in the first two weeks, and I have a no late work policy for a reason: just because you couldn't get your s&%t together and register on time doesn't give you a free pass, and if you're just today emailing me to tell me (not ask) that you'll catch up everything by Monday, doesn't work for me. (Besides, in 20+ years of teaching, I've had exactly TWO late-enrolling students who've ever passed any of my classes, not because of my policies, but because they're similarly unable to get their acts together enough to actually do/pass the work.)
These are students who registered after the add drop period, or during it? I have to give special permission for anyone adding after the add drop period.
Same here--these were all during add/drop week. Like you, I'd have to accept late adds beyond that week, and I refuse to do so.
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 07, 2023, 02:35:36 PM
Quote from: Caracal on February 07, 2023, 04:00:05 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on January 27, 2023, 07:49:38 AM
I've had more late-adds this spring than usual, all emailing me with a version of, "I'll turn in the things I missed." I go heavy on graded work in the first two weeks, and I have a no late work policy for a reason: just because you couldn't get your s&%t together and register on time doesn't give you a free pass, and if you're just today emailing me to tell me (not ask) that you'll catch up everything by Monday, doesn't work for me. (Besides, in 20+ years of teaching, I've had exactly TWO late-enrolling students who've ever passed any of my classes, not because of my policies, but because they're similarly unable to get their acts together enough to actually do/pass the work.)
These are students who registered after the add drop period, or during it? I have to give special permission for anyone adding after the add drop period.
Same here--these were all during add/drop week. Like you, I'd have to accept late adds beyond that week, and I refuse to do so.
Hmm, I tend to think that if students add during add drop week, they should have an opportunity to complete assignments they missed before they joined the class. Our add drop period is too long, In our case, it's 10 days after the start of classes, which is just silly. Does anybody really reasonably need more time than a few days, and two class periods? However, I'm not in charge of the schedule and if the school is telling students they can still change classes, they should be able to do so and not start off with zeros on assignments. The student can't be responsible for things on the syllabus when they weren't enrolled. Why not just set them a date of three dates to complete everything and be finished with it?
Quote from: Caracal on February 08, 2023, 04:12:12 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 07, 2023, 02:35:36 PM
Quote from: Caracal on February 07, 2023, 04:00:05 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on January 27, 2023, 07:49:38 AM
I've had more late-adds this spring than usual, all emailing me with a version of, "I'll turn in the things I missed." I go heavy on graded work in the first two weeks, and I have a no late work policy for a reason: just because you couldn't get your s&%t together and register on time doesn't give you a free pass, and if you're just today emailing me to tell me (not ask) that you'll catch up everything by Monday, doesn't work for me. (Besides, in 20+ years of teaching, I've had exactly TWO late-enrolling students who've ever passed any of my classes, not because of my policies, but because they're similarly unable to get their acts together enough to actually do/pass the work.)
These are students who registered after the add drop period, or during it? I have to give special permission for anyone adding after the add drop period.
Same here--these were all during add/drop week. Like you, I'd have to accept late adds beyond that week, and I refuse to do so.
Hmm, I tend to think that if students add during add drop week, they should have an opportunity to complete assignments they missed before they joined the class. Our add drop period is too long, In our case, it's 10 days after the start of classes, which is just silly. Does anybody really reasonably need more time than a few days, and two class periods? However, I'm not in charge of the schedule and if the school is telling students they can still change classes, they should be able to do so and not start off with zeros on assignments. The student can't be responsible for things on the syllabus when they weren't enrolled. Why not just set them a date of three dates to complete everything and be finished with it?
My experience is that students who add a course late are much more likely to fail the course. That said, correlation shouldn't be causation and I always try to give late-adding students a chance to make up the work. I think that it is wrong for an instructor to not allow students the chance to turn in work that they could not have done--or to put it another way, I think it is wrong for professors to penalize students for not turning in work they could not have turned in. I am pretty sure that
Got an email last night from my chair, starting with asking me if I was ok and if there was any help she could provide. I'm fine....I think. The email goes on with a complaint from a student's parent that I've been repeatedly cancelling class and there was no class all last week, along with concerns about how the university is going to handle this. The thing is...I haven't cancelled a class yet this semester. I wrote my chair back asking if perhaps the parent had mixed me up with a different instructor. Chair wrote me back that no, this seems to be a case of a student (presumably one living at home) telling a parent that the reason they weren't headed into class in the morning was because I kept cancelling class, and that she suspects someone is about to have a very unhappy parent. I guess the student underestimated their parent's overinvovlement in college...
Quote from: Caracal on February 08, 2023, 04:26:02 AM
I guess the student underestimated their parent's overinvovlement in college...
LOL. Bet they regret signing that FERPA waiver now.
Quote from: jerseyjay on February 08, 2023, 04:24:14 AM
<snip>
My experience is that students who add a course late are much more likely to fail the course.
I seem to recall someone on the CHE Fora post data regarding late adds. The supporting evidence included non-curricular elements. In other words, students who have organizational, financial, and other concerns are usually the ones who add late to a course. Sometimes they're class shopping, but most often those other problems carry over into the registration process.
In Fall 2022 I had 10 students (from 4 sections) who added after the first week. One of them earned a B, another a D-, and the other 8 either withdrew or received an F for non-attendance. Small sample set, but I wonder if how close that "10% of late-adds pass the class" to everyone else's experience.
Quote from: Caracal on February 08, 2023, 04:26:02 AM
Got an email last night from my chair, starting with asking me if I was ok and if there was any help she could provide. I'm fine....I think. The email goes on with a complaint from a student's parent that I've been repeatedly cancelling class and there was no class all last week, along with concerns about how the university is going to handle this. The thing is...I haven't cancelled a class yet this semester. I wrote my chair back asking if perhaps the parent had mixed me up with a different instructor. Chair wrote me back that no, this seems to be a case of a student (presumably one living at home) telling a parent that the reason they weren't headed into class in the morning was because I kept cancelling class, and that she suspects someone is about to have a very unhappy parent. I guess the student underestimated their parent's overinvovlement in college...
Awfully shabby of that student to try to blame you for the student's own laziness. I mean, really!--an ostensible adult lying like a child!
In this case the parent's helicoptering may turn out to be a good thing, if it leads that student to a memorable lesson regarding the consequences of lying.
Quote from: jerseyjay on February 08, 2023, 04:24:14 AM
Quote from: Caracal on February 08, 2023, 04:12:12 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 07, 2023, 02:35:36 PM
Quote from: Caracal on February 07, 2023, 04:00:05 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on January 27, 2023, 07:49:38 AM
I've had more late-adds this spring than usual, all emailing me with a version of, "I'll turn in the things I missed." I go heavy on graded work in the first two weeks, and I have a no late work policy for a reason: just because you couldn't get your s&%t together and register on time doesn't give you a free pass, and if you're just today emailing me to tell me (not ask) that you'll catch up everything by Monday, doesn't work for me. (Besides, in 20+ years of teaching, I've had exactly TWO late-enrolling students who've ever passed any of my classes, not because of my policies, but because they're similarly unable to get their acts together enough to actually do/pass the work.)
These are students who registered after the add drop period, or during it? I have to give special permission for anyone adding after the add drop period.
Same here--these were all during add/drop week. Like you, I'd have to accept late adds beyond that week, and I refuse to do so.
Hmm, I tend to think that if students add during add drop week, they should have an opportunity to complete assignments they missed before they joined the class. Our add drop period is too long, In our case, it's 10 days after the start of classes, which is just silly. Does anybody really reasonably need more time than a few days, and two class periods? However, I'm not in charge of the schedule and if the school is telling students they can still change classes, they should be able to do so and not start off with zeros on assignments. The student can't be responsible for things on the syllabus when they weren't enrolled. Why not just set them a date of three dates to complete everything and be finished with it?
My experience is that students who add a course late are much more likely to fail the course. That said, correlation shouldn't be causation and I always try to give late-adding students a chance to make up the work. I think that it is wrong for an instructor to not allow students the chance to turn in work that they could not have done--or to put it another way, I think it is wrong for professors to penalize students for not turning in work they could not have turned in. I am pretty sure that
I agree with your rationale for accepting late work, JerseyJay and Caracal. However, it's college policy that we don't accept such late work, because over the years we too have found that late adds are unlikely to pass the class (and usually end up dropping pretty quickly--generally late enough, though, that they lose 20, 50, or 100% of their tuition in the process). Also, across the district, our students traditionally have a history of being very late to register, which too many times has led to last minute scheduling headaches (closing sections for low enrollment, then having to open late-starts to meet the delayed demand, and such). I know that a lot of other CCs in this area have similar policies, for the same reasons.
Quote from: apl68 on February 08, 2023, 06:30:36 AM
Quote from: Caracal on February 08, 2023, 04:26:02 AM
Got an email last night from my chair, starting with asking me if I was ok and if there was any help she could provide. I'm fine....I think. The email goes on with a complaint from a student's parent that I've been repeatedly cancelling class and there was no class all last week, along with concerns about how the university is going to handle this. The thing is...I haven't cancelled a class yet this semester. I wrote my chair back asking if perhaps the parent had mixed me up with a different instructor. Chair wrote me back that no, this seems to be a case of a student (presumably one living at home) telling a parent that the reason they weren't headed into class in the morning was because I kept cancelling class, and that she suspects someone is about to have a very unhappy parent. I guess the student underestimated their parent's overinvovlement in college...
Awfully shabby of that student to try to blame you for the student's own laziness. I mean, really!--an ostensible adult lying like a child!
In this case the parent's helicoptering may turn out to be a good thing, if it leads that student to a memorable lesson regarding the consequences of lying.
It's kind of great to have the lie be so easily disproved. Usually when students are trying to blame me for their own failings, it's just self indulgent interpretations of what's happening.
Quote from: RatGuy on February 08, 2023, 05:37:54 AM
Quote from: jerseyjay on February 08, 2023, 04:24:14 AM
<snip>
My experience is that students who add a course late are much more likely to fail the course.
I seem to recall someone on the CHE Fora post data regarding late adds. The supporting evidence included non-curricular elements. In other words, students who have organizational, financial, and other concerns are usually the ones who add late to a course. Sometimes they're class shopping, but most often those other problems carry over into the registration process.
In Fall 2022 I had 10 students (from 4 sections) who added after the first week. One of them earned a B, another a D-, and the other 8 either withdrew or received an F for non-attendance. Small sample set, but I wonder if how close that "10% of late-adds pass the class" to everyone else's experience.
Ugh, which suggests that the reason schools extend add/drop so long is to get more registrations. Obviously, a better strategy would be to move up the deadline and provide more support for students who might be having issues, rather than putting students who are already at risk of flunking behind the 8 ball from the beginning in all their courses.
In my experience there is definitely a direct correlation between late registration and poor performance. Sometimes it is causative--a student adds so late they cannot catch up in either the work or the material itself. Often it is because students who add late have other issues--too distracted, too unserious, etc., as RatGuy explained. Some students do of course do well in the class after adding it late, but that is not the rule.
My experience is also that the administration pressures faculty to accept these students, usually because if they do not enroll in classes late, they might not enroll at all, and hence hurt the school. I must assume that the administrators who push to allow students to be allowed to register late know that the odds are high they will fail, but feel this is outweighed the added enrollment.
Which is why I find it strange that AmLitHist's experience is that the administrators do not allow professors to accept late work. I would hope that the administrators there actively discourage late registration, since to encourage it but not allow them to pass would just be cynical.
One time, while I was teaching an aynchronous intro course at a community college, the college president called me on my cell phone and essentially begged me to take a section of the course that would start a month late to allow about a dozen (I think) students to take the course. I agreed, and out of the dozen students, not a single one passed the class. Most stopped doing work early on, and nobody took the final exam. (I remember regularly emailing my chair and the president so that this result did not come as a surprise to them.) Since the students were not penalized in terms of turning in the work--they weren't actually late after all--this underlined that there were what RatGuy called "non-curricular" issues that meant that taking a bunch of students who could not register on time and placing them in a compressed online course was not a good idea.
It's not quite the same as late add, but I have at least a couple of students every semester who don't log in or do work during the first week of class and are then withdrawn, only to petition to be put back into the class. We are "encouraged" (i.e. told) to let them back in, but I have yet to have one even finish the course, much less pass it. And then their failing the class is a black mark against me. It's basically a no-win situation, except for the student who gets to keep their financial aid for another semester.
Quote from: fosca on February 08, 2023, 09:34:14 AM
It's not quite the same as late add, but I have at least a couple of students every semester who don't log in or do work during the first week of class and are then withdrawn, only to petition to be put back into the class. We are "encouraged" (i.e. told) to let them back in, but I have yet to have one even finish the course, much less pass it. And then their failing the class is a black mark against me. It's basically a no-win situation, except for the student who gets to keep their financial aid for another semester.
Does the school understand that if they allow too much financial aid fraud to slip past, they could be forced to pay it back?
Quote from: Caracal on February 08, 2023, 06:54:36 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on February 08, 2023, 05:37:54 AM
Quote from: jerseyjay on February 08, 2023, 04:24:14 AM
<snip>
My experience is that students who add a course late are much more likely to fail the course.
I seem to recall someone on the CHE Fora post data regarding late adds. The supporting evidence included non-curricular elements. In other words, students who have organizational, financial, and other concerns are usually the ones who add late to a course. Sometimes they're class shopping, but most often those other problems carry over into the registration process.
In Fall 2022 I had 10 students (from 4 sections) who added after the first week. One of them earned a B, another a D-, and the other 8 either withdrew or received an F for non-attendance. Small sample set, but I wonder if how close that "10% of late-adds pass the class" to everyone else's experience.
Ugh, which suggests that the reason schools extend add/drop so long is to get more registrations. Obviously, a better strategy would be to move up the deadline and provide more support for students who might be having issues, rather than putting students who are already at risk of flunking behind the 8 ball from the beginning in all their courses.
Exactly. In fact, we found at our college that registrations tended to drop off 2 weeks before the semester started. While the union pressured us to keep those classes open until the first day of classes (and beyond), all that did was screw up the students who had registered when the class was (inevitably) canceled and they had to scramble around for new ones.
We have the problem of late admission to the college entirely- so that we can "make quota". These students get registered usually the week before classes start in the Fall, and so all get put together in a few lab sections in Intro Bio that are magically created in that last week. Guess what the pass rate is for those lab sections as compared to the rest?
The head of the general education program has explained the following problem here: there are some students who are failing a course by this time and cannot pass so the instructor advises them to withdraw from the course or they will fail. However, if they withdraw, they will loose their financial aid or have it reduced (because they are no longer taking a full load) and probably not come back to school. So their options are (a) to fail a class and continue to be a full-time student but have an F on their transcript or (b) withdraw from the class and not lower their GPA but loose financial aid. It is a no-win situation. It is not financial aid fraud if a student fails a class; it is only fraud if they take aid and do not attend the class. Many students manage to met the attendance and still fail a class.
(Of course, had the student studied in the first place some of this could have been avoided.)
I had an interesting discussion related to this this week. We are scrutinizing high DFW courses (which I often teach). Admins wanted to know how many of the failing students were "disengaged"- as in not turning anything in. The answer was almost zero based on who attempted the last 2 exams of the semester.
But how engaged can you be if you score a 35/100 on an exam? Either you are just randomly filling in bubbles on the scantron- which means you are faking being "engaged" or you are so clueless/lost that an intervention is needed- why are you in this course? But of course admin just wanted to know how many took the exams.
Quote from: ciao_yall on February 08, 2023, 09:37:25 AM
Quote from: fosca on February 08, 2023, 09:34:14 AM
It's not quite the same as late add, but I have at least a couple of students every semester who don't log in or do work during the first week of class and are then withdrawn, only to petition to be put back into the class. We are "encouraged" (i.e. told) to let them back in, but I have yet to have one even finish the course, much less pass it. And then their failing the class is a black mark against me. It's basically a no-win situation, except for the student who gets to keep their financial aid for another semester.
Does the school understand that if they allow too much financial aid fraud to slip past, they could be forced to pay it back?
I haven't the slightest idea. I do know when we've brought up the possibility of dropping ghost students, we've been told no.
An actual favorite! I can't quote too much of it, because it's more specific about my specialism than I'm comfortable sharing, but maybe you can get the gist from this redacted snippet:
Quote
Thank you for the great lectures! I can proudly declare that, as a [topic] student, you have had more impact on how I think about [fundamental component] than any of my [topic] lecturers. I ... often feel that attempts to [do research like what we discussed in class] are a foolish endeavour. Believing that "surely this is too complicated and nebulous for any numbers-minded [related-topic specialist] to claim mastery of". And yet! [lectures on related topic] have completely swayed my thinking! The [lecture] chart shall forever stay burned into my mind! [lecture] graphs clearly show [evidence of the complicated/nebulous thing]! I have been thinking about it a hell of a lot these past weeks, so thanks!
May the rest of the industrial action go brilliantly, and have a restorative reading week!
Got this one today:
Quote
Hello [firstname],
I am writing this email to inform you that I contracted an illness with flu-like symptoms and I will not be able to attend the [basketweaving] discussion session on [date time]. Would I be able to get the documentation so that I could make up for this absence?
Thank You,
[confused about who does what stu]
Stu,
The documentation is that YOU provide a medical note to show you are too ill to be in class. There is an online form for you to submit said documentation.
And, I still don't know WHICH CLASS you are in. There are several [Basketweaving] classes. Depending on the class, you have either missed a quiz, a worksheet, or a project check-in.
Student emails me saying that they didn't realize they had signed up for an online class and wants to meet me in person for me to explain the course requirements to me. Apparently the student does not like online classes.
Unfortunately for the student, I didn't provide a sympathetic or accommodating response. I did suggest they withdraw. I pointed them to the syllabus and the LMS for the sought explanations.
Dear Professor Artalot,
I'm sorry I've been missing class. I've had a lot to do with [other class], but once I've finished my work for [other class] I'll come back to yours. Can you tell me what I've missed?
So, what you're saying is that another class is more important than mine, but you still think I should help you.
Usually, I get these emails later in the semester. Props for revealing your priorities before midterms.
That answer would be your fantasy reply to this wholly-inappropriate student email... but how did you really deal with it?
I usually reply something to the effect that they can make that choice and choices come with consequences.
Students are responsible for keeping up with the material, I suggest that they may want to check in with a classmate if they want insight on what they missed. My classes are not self-paced, I suggest they make sure to check blackboard for assignment deadlines and my late-work policy.
I don't give grades, I record what happened in the course.
I haven't replied. Attendance is not required in the class and I told students they are welcome to let me know if they will miss, but unless it's something that will mean lots of missed class, I don't need to know and I probably won't even answer the email.
I tell them to get notes from a friend and to look at the syllabus for the policy on late work.
Quote from: mythbuster on February 08, 2023, 10:03:39 AM
I had an interesting discussion related to this this week. We are scrutinizing high DFW courses (which I often teach). Admins wanted to know how many of the failing students were "disengaged"- as in not turning anything in. The answer was almost zero based on who attempted the last 2 exams of the semester.
But how engaged can you be if you score a 35/100 on an exam? Either you are just randomly filling in bubbles on the scantron- which means you are faking being "engaged" or you are so clueless/lost that an intervention is needed- why are you in this course? But of course admin just wanted to know how many took the exams.
Are exams the only thing that's graded? If I measure disengagement by people who missed more than half of the homework over the last two months, about 90% of failing students are disengaged.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 09, 2023, 01:28:49 PM
Got this one today:
Quote
Hello [firstname],
I am writing this email to inform you that I contracted an illness with flu-like symptoms and I will not be able to attend the [basketweaving] discussion session on [date time]. Would I be able to get the documentation so that I could make up for this absence?
Thank You,
[confused about who does what stu]
Stu,
The documentation is that YOU provide a medical note to show you are too ill to be in class. There is an online form for you to submit said documentation.
And, I still don't know WHICH CLASS you are in. There are several [Basketweaving] classes. Depending on the class, you have either missed a quiz, a worksheet, or a project check-in.
Ugh, I do hate when students don't tell me what class they are in. If it's midway through the semester and its a smallish upper level class I know who they are, but in big classes, I usually don't.
I'm not crazy about the medical note. I've come down w an annoying cold (I tested, it isn't covid) I don't teach Friday, but if I did, I would have cancelled my classes. There's no way my voice would make it through a class and even if it would, I'm pretty gross and nobody wants to have me up in the front of class blowing my nose and spreading my germs around. I didn't go the doctor, however. My throat is sore, but it isn't that bad, so I doubt it's strep. Usually these things take a pretty predictable course for me, and start improving in a day or two. If it isn't getting any better by Monday, I might go to the doctor, but I doubt that will be necessary. Is it really reasonable to make students go to the doctor in situations in which I wouldn't? At best, it's just a hassle for a student who has to go to the health center when they really probably just need to go back to sleep, but it is also a waste of medical resources if students are going to the doctor or health center just because they need a note. Besides, what does a note prove? If you tell the doctor you don't feel well, they believe you.
With tele-health appointments from the campus health center, they can always get a note.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 18, 2023, 07:36:53 AM
With tele-health appointments from the campus health center, they can always get a note.
But that just makes it incredibly convenient for a student, who is so inclined, to just lie to the medical provider. You can do that in person too, it isn't like doctors have magic illness detectors-if you tell them you don't feel well, they will believe you-but if you have to go down to the health center to get a note many students might decide its easier to just go to class. Of course, they might actually be sick and decide that anyway...
Besides, it's still a waste of resources for the health center. Students who actually need to see a medical provider are going to have to wait longer because the people at the health center are spending all their time telling people who have a headache that they should get some rest and drink some water.
There really is no problem with just believing students when they say they are sick. If they want to lie about it, that's going to be their problem when they don't know the material.
I try to avoid situations where students have to prove they were really ill. But sometimes there are big exams where it is a bigger problem if they miss. I at least want to discourage them from missing those exams by making them have to make an effort to find an excuse.
[quote author=Caracal link=topic=274.msg123249#msg123249 date=1676737753
There really is no problem with just believing students when they say they are sick. If they want to lie about it, that's going to be their problem when they don't know the material.
[/quote]
Since H1N1 our university hasn't required a physician's note for absences. For exams, students do have to sign a form attesting they were ill, but it doesn't require any proof. Students who are actually ill benefit, students who aren't actually ill tend to fail anyway, even when provided the opportunity to make up the exam or other missed work.
I like this system. Instructors don't have to judge or police student absences or excuses. Students who are genuinely ill benefit and don't potentially infect others. Students who lie typically fail anyhow.
Quote from: downer on February 19, 2023, 12:05:17 PM
I try to avoid situations where students have to prove they were really ill. But sometimes there are big exams where it is a bigger problem if they miss. I at least want to discourage them from missing those exams by making them have to make an effort to find an excuse.
I just have a make up exam at the end of the semester, which works fine for my classes, but other people on here have said they just have the final also count for a missed exam. I still let students take make ups in my office, but with the make up at the end as an option, students who are just malingering are generally just going to delay further. It also means that if students have some bigger kind of medical problem, or family emergency can just focus on getting caught up without having to go back and study for an exam.
Quote from: Caracal on February 20, 2023, 06:49:21 AM
Quote from: downer on February 19, 2023, 12:05:17 PM
I try to avoid situations where students have to prove they were really ill. But sometimes there are big exams where it is a bigger problem if they miss. I at least want to discourage them from missing those exams by making them have to make an effort to find an excuse.
I just have a make up exam at the end of the semester, which works fine for my classes, but other people on here have said they just have the final also count for a missed exam. I still let students take make ups in my office, but with the make up at the end as an option, students who are just malingering are generally just going to delay further. It also means that if students have some bigger kind of medical problem, or family emergency can just focus on getting caught up without having to go back and study for an exam.
Is the make up exam at the end of the semester a variation of the midterm, or some other assignment? Do all students in a course get the same make up exam?
Do you devote a class session to the make up exam, or is it part of your exam week?
Is this work essays, short answer, or multiple choice?
I am thinking of making more of my assignments being done in class, to avoid students using AI to do their work for them.
Another alternative: Give the final exam, and key the questions as to which lecture exam content they come from, then the makeup is just the % on that portion of the final. Save yourself the trouble.
Sorry for the double post. I woke up this morning to an ice storm and this email:
"Hi let me tell you something I DONT NEED YOU PUTTING THINGS IN CAP BECAUSE THIS IS YELLING okay I don't know you we have never met your just a professor not my mother I'm 20 years old I find it very disrespectful for yelling at me I'm a grown ADULT not a child. Yes I'm talking to you just like you spoke to me. Plus you're DISCRIMINATING A STUDENT THAT HAS A DISABILTY. Talk to to me with patients OR I'm going to speak with the hire ups. Either change your attitude with me speak to me nicely and calmly or I'm going to call University state speak to the DEAN . I am going to speak with [Disabilities Person]] on top of that. This is upsetting and rude and UNPROFESSIONAL that you're a professor and you speak to students like this specially who is ASKING FOR HELP AND THAT HAS A DISABILITY. "
Words I put in all caps? NOT, AFTER, INFORMATION (the CMS heading), ANY, NO WORK.
I'm such a monster.
Wow! That is VERY SPECIAL.
Quote from: ergative on February 23, 2023, 05:19:53 AM
Wow! That is VERY SPECIAL.
sToP yElLiNg aT mE!
Serious note - I am considering replying to this by escalating it to my Chair and Dean. Call the bluff, neutralize the threat.
Quote from: FishProf on February 23, 2023, 05:22:23 AM
Quote from: ergative on February 23, 2023, 05:19:53 AM
Wow! That is VERY SPECIAL.
sToP yElLiNg aT mE!
Serious note - I am considering replying to this by escalating it to my Chair and Dean. Call the bluff, neutralize the threat.
And unless you know someone in healthcare, finding patients to accompany you when you talk to the student could be difficult.
Quote from: FishProf on February 23, 2023, 05:22:23 AM
Quote from: ergative on February 23, 2023, 05:19:53 AM
Wow! That is VERY SPECIAL.
sToP yElLiNg aT mE!
Serious note - I am considering replying to this by escalating it to my Chair and Dean. Call the bluff, neutralize the threat.
Wow, indeed! I would send that up the chain to my Chair and Dean too. Do you have an Office of Student Conduct? We have one and are encouraged to include them in the conversation when we have situations like this, when it looks like a student is possibly out of control. That way if things get out of hand in the future, if the email rant is not a one-off, we've documented their behavior as potentially problematic.
Student misses test. Student emails about travels problems. Student turns up to do the test, and is doing it as I write.
That's all fine. I'm chill. I'd be more chill if the student would share some of that marajuana he smells of so strongly.
Quote from: FishProf on February 23, 2023, 04:42:57 AM
Words I put in all caps? NOT, AFTER, INFORMATION (the CMS heading), ANY, NO WORK.
I'm such a monster.
Am I understanding correctly that the student was asking for something and you were telling them to refer to the language on the assignment or syllabus or something? In some circumstances, I suppose, I might view that as obnoxious, not yelling, but finger waggy. It would depend on the context, however.
Not that it really matters, though. The student's response is unhinged. I was trying to think if there was some way a reasonable student who didn't like your tone could have responded, but I actually think it's one of those things where the decision to complain in the first place is just bad judgment. I can think of a few times where I've gotten an email or a call that I thought was rude in the way it was framed. (Actually the only example I can remember is from someone in the dean's office in the first covid semester calling because my grades were 15 minutes late. and I didn't appreciate their tone.) But, you can't really critique someone's tone without seeming like you are the one overreacting, and it's likely to end up sounding like the student does-as if you think everyone ought to be genuflecting to you.
Quote from: downer on February 23, 2023, 11:13:46 AM
Student misses test. Student emails about travels problems. Student turns up to do the test, and is doing it as I write.
That's all fine. I'm chill. I'd be more chill if the student would share some of that marajuana he smells of so strongly.
Ha!
I have students who, after class #1 with me, come in to my class #2 and smell so strongly of pot that I get a contact high.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 24, 2023, 06:17:35 AM
Quote from: downer on February 23, 2023, 11:13:46 AM
Student misses test. Student emails about travels problems. Student turns up to do the test, and is doing it as I write.
That's all fine. I'm chill. I'd be more chill if the student would share some of that marajuana he smells of so strongly.
Ha!
I have students who, after class #1 with me, come in to my class #2 and smell so strongly of pot that I get a contact high.
I guess this is just one of those things that's probably going to happen more as majijuana becomes more decriminalized or legal and more socially acceptable? I never really smell cigarette smoke on students, but I'm sure that would have been very normal 25 years ago.
Quote from: Caracal on February 24, 2023, 05:46:15 AM
Quote from: FishProf on February 23, 2023, 04:42:57 AM
Words I put in all caps? NOT, AFTER, INFORMATION (the CMS heading), ANY, NO WORK.
I'm such a monster.
Am I understanding correctly that the student was asking for something and you were telling them to refer to the language on the assignment or syllabus or something? In some circumstances, I suppose, I might view that as obnoxious, not yelling, but finger waggy. It would depend on the context, however.
Not that it really matters, though. The student's response is unhinged. I was trying to think if there was some way a reasonable student who didn't like your tone could have responded, but I actually think it's one of those things where the decision to complain in the first place is just bad judgment. I can think of a few times where I've gotten an email or a call that I thought was rude in the way it was framed. (Actually the only example I can remember is from someone in the dean's office in the first covid semester calling because my grades were 15 minutes late. and I didn't appreciate their tone.) But, you can't really critique someone's tone without seeming like you are the one overreacting, and it's likely to end up sounding like the student does-as if you think everyone ought to be genuflecting to you.
As a practical matter, complaining about tone is usually counterproductive. And it is also possible one is misreading the tone to begin with.
I recall that in late Soviet times there was a phenomenon in which people criticized the government through echoing back the official rhetoric in an excessive way so that a) they could not be punished since it was official rhetoric and b) it is clear nonetheless that they were taking the piss of the officials. I have at times employed a similar methodology when administrators make sill demands wrapped in bureaucratic arrogance.
On the other hand, if somebody below me in the hierarchy (students, support staff, etc.) take a tone that I think I find annoying, I usually let it slide because people in power demanding respect is both pathetic and petty.
Quote from: Caracal on February 24, 2023, 05:46:15 AM
Quote from: FishProf on February 23, 2023, 04:42:57 AM
Words I put in all caps? NOT, AFTER, INFORMATION (the CMS heading), ANY, NO WORK.
I'm such a monster.
Am I understanding correctly that the student was asking for something and you were telling them to refer to the language on the assignment or syllabus or something? In some circumstances, I suppose, I might view that as obnoxious, not yelling, but finger waggy. It would depend on the context, however.
Sort of. They wanted to know 1) Why their grade was an F, when they got an 80% on "the quiz" (that's the syllabus quiz*), and 2) what I was going to do to accommodate them for their litany of issues (many, if not all, no doubt legitimate) while they worked with the disability office to get their accommodation letter.
Question one is answered by reading the syllabus, the quiz posting, the announcements, or watching the video that covers the syllabus. ANY one would do (sorry, that was shouty). Also, that should've been done 3 weeks ago.
If that qualifies as
obnoxious or
finger waggy, then I'm at a loss how to communicate class requirements.
*get 100% in order to see the rest of the class materials. Take as many times as needed. Open-note.
Quote from: FishProf on February 24, 2023, 09:04:32 AM
Quote from: Caracal on February 24, 2023, 05:46:15 AM
Quote from: FishProf on February 23, 2023, 04:42:57 AM
Words I put in all caps? NOT, AFTER, INFORMATION (the CMS heading), ANY, NO WORK.
I'm such a monster.
Am I understanding correctly that the student was asking for something and you were telling them to refer to the language on the assignment or syllabus or something? In some circumstances, I suppose, I might view that as obnoxious, not yelling, but finger waggy. It would depend on the context, however.
Sort of. They wanted to know 1) Why their grade was an F, when they got an 80% on "the quiz" (that's the syllabus quiz*), and 2) what I was going to do to accommodate them for their litany of issues (many, if not all, no doubt legitimate) while they worked with the disability office to get their accommodation letter.
Question one is answered by reading the syllabus, the quiz posting, the announcements, or watching the video that covers the syllabus. ANY one would do (sorry, that was shouty). Also, that should've been done 3 weeks ago.
If that qualifies as obnoxious or finger waggy, then I'm at a loss how to communicate class requirements.
*get 100% in order to see the rest of the class materials. Take as many times as needed. Open-note.
Ugh, there's nothing worse than the "why am I getting a bad grade" question. I wasn't assuming you were being finger waggy, just trying to understand why the student might view it that way. As it is...that makes no sense. If it was me, I would certainly forward that to my chair-just so that they know there's an angry student out there that they may hear from. Probably I'd also send that to the dean's office and frame it as concern about the student, which is fair, but also gets you out ahead of the threats. Ugh.
Quote from: Caracal on February 24, 2023, 11:45:15 AM
Quote from: FishProf on February 24, 2023, 09:04:32 AM
Quote from: Caracal on February 24, 2023, 05:46:15 AM
Quote from: FishProf on February 23, 2023, 04:42:57 AM
Words I put in all caps? NOT, AFTER, INFORMATION (the CMS heading), ANY, NO WORK.
I'm such a monster.
Am I understanding correctly that the student was asking for something and you were telling them to refer to the language on the assignment or syllabus or something? In some circumstances, I suppose, I might view that as obnoxious, not yelling, but finger waggy. It would depend on the context, however.
Sort of. They wanted to know 1) Why their grade was an F, when they got an 80% on "the quiz" (that's the syllabus quiz*), and 2) what I was going to do to accommodate them for their litany of issues (many, if not all, no doubt legitimate) while they worked with the disability office to get their accommodation letter.
Question one is answered by reading the syllabus, the quiz posting, the announcements, or watching the video that covers the syllabus. ANY one would do (sorry, that was shouty). Also, that should've been done 3 weeks ago.
If that qualifies as obnoxious or finger waggy, then I'm at a loss how to communicate class requirements.
*get 100% in order to see the rest of the class materials. Take as many times as needed. Open-note.
Ugh, there's nothing worse than the "why am I getting a bad grade" question. I wasn't assuming you were being finger waggy, just trying to understand why the student might view it that way. As it is...that makes no sense. If it was me, I would certainly forward that to my chair-just so that they know there's an angry student out there that they may hear from. Probably I'd also send that to the dean's office and frame it as concern about the student, which is fair, but also gets you out ahead of the threats. Ugh.
Sorry if I sounded defensive.
I've kicked it upstairs to the Deans, my chair and the disabilities folks. I won't bore you all with the details, but my response to the student did include this:
"You are making a very serious accusation and doing so in a way that I consider a threat. Therefore, I
accept your solution. There is no need for you to notify my Chair, and the Dean(s); I have already done so in this email.
As to your accusation that I am discriminating against a student who has a disability, it should be clear that I cannot provide you with appropriate accommodations until you provide me with the letter from [Disabilities Office] that documents the accommodation and specifies what I am supposed to provide."
Do let us know how (if) the student responded, Fishprof
All quiet on the western front, but the [Disabilities Office] Director wants to chat and says the student was out of line.
Quote from: FishProf on February 27, 2023, 08:49:51 AM
All quiet on the western front, but the [Disabilities Office] Director wants to chat and says the student was out of line.
That's good. The student might just be a huge jerk, but it's also possible this is someone who is really spinning out and needs help. Of course, it's also possible it's both...
Quote from: Caracal on February 28, 2023, 07:57:21 AM
Quote from: FishProf on February 27, 2023, 08:49:51 AM
All quiet on the western front, but the [Disabilities Office] Director wants to chat and says the student was out of line.
That's good. The student might just be a huge jerk, but it's also possible this is someone who is really spinning out and needs help. Of course, it's also possible it's both...
The student had decided/been counseled that withdrawing at this point is their best option.
My "it is not mathematically possible for you to earn higher than a C/not plausible that you will pass" student is refusing to ask to Withdraw.
They've already failed the course before. Failing it again means they are out of the major.
All the determination and wanting to do well is not enough to catch up on being absent for 4 weeks (and counting) in a 10-week quarter.
Stu, your situation is the reason we have a late withdrawal for medical hardships. Stop asking for "extra time to get caught up" and DROP THE CLASS.
Quote from: FishProf on February 28, 2023, 08:37:57 AM
Quote from: Caracal on February 28, 2023, 07:57:21 AM
Quote from: FishProf on February 27, 2023, 08:49:51 AM
All quiet on the western front, but the [Disabilities Office] Director wants to chat and says the student was out of line.
That's good. The student might just be a huge jerk, but it's also possible this is someone who is really spinning out and needs help. Of course, it's also possible it's both...
The student had decided/been counseled that withdrawing at this point is their best option.
Sounds like a sensible resolution for all concerned.
A new headache a-coming.
I had to send Athlete progress reports. Afterwards, I got this gem:
"Hello I was looking at the grades on the grade book and there were 5 quizzes that I miss that I was never told about there were no emails telling us there were any quizzes due and I don't remember you mentioning them in class the week before."
You are right, I didn't mention them. That's the job of the schedule of topics posted next to the syllabus, AND the due dates listed for each item on the CMS.
It has finally happened to me, too:
- rambling email from student who can't read the syllabus, asking about our midterm exam & amazed that it hasn't been mentioned in class
- my reply " Dear student; There is not an exam tomorrow - it's just Midterm = the last day to drop any class with a W"
- SWCRTS: "So, just for clarity's sake, there is no exam on Tuesday? That is just the midterm date for dropping the class?"
I hope my lack of a response was adequate, clear, and improved SWCRTS's understanding....
I used to be dutiful about responding to requests from coaches about how their athlete students were doing. But my willingness to do extra work which is not required by deans has decreased. Often those emails disappear from the page of visible emails before I get around to responding, and they go unanswered.
I have a student who didn't take the online, open note exam on Friday.
They emailed me the next morning to ask to "reschedule" the exam.
And said they had a fever.
Then said it was COVID.
Then said the "were taking so many exams online they passed out from exhaustion"
I don't want them to fail due to making a dumb choice, but I also don't want them to think that this decision has no consequences.
I'm leaning towards "come take the exam in my office, bring your notes. It's on paper this time".
Thoughts?
Sounds reasonable.
Chances are that student won't show up to the rescheduled exam if you have one. So you need to spell out consequences of that ahead of time.
Chances are student will fail exam when they take it. Then what?
Quote from: FishProf on March 20, 2023, 07:59:12 AM
A new headache a-coming.
I had to send Athlete progress reports. Afterwards, I got this gem:
"Hello I was looking at the grades on the grade book and there were 5 quizzes that I miss that I was never told about there were no emails telling us there were any quizzes due and I don't remember you mentioning them in class the week before."
You are right, I didn't mention them. That's the job of the schedule of topics posted next to the syllabus, AND the due dates listed for each item on the CMS.
We have to do intermediate grade reports for our Div I athletes. I find it helpful, as it encourages those that are failing to drop the class early in the semester. I've gotten a few gems of replies, including the student who wrote back (during the semester) to ask why I kept reporting them as "at risk of failing" when they could see that they were currently passing the class (intermediate grades were in the D/D- range), and then wrote (after the semester was over) to ask if they could earn extra credit, since they needed to earn at least a C in the class to remain eligible for their athletic scholarship.
This year, I had the pleasure of hearing the tv announcers laud the capabilities of one of my former students for his BB prowess. If only this student had applied even a teeny tiny bit of effort for my class...which he dropped half-way through the semester after earning 0 points total.
Quote from: downer on March 20, 2023, 10:50:09 AM
Sounds reasonable.
Chances are that student won't show up to the rescheduled exam if you have one. So you need to spell out consequences of that ahead of time.
Chances are student will fail exam when they take it. Then what?
At least I can show I gave them the opportunity to try and pass. They were actually passing the class before the exam. I could also offer an Incomplete.
Update: student lied
They didn't have any other exams that day, online or in person. They also didn't have COVID (or else they had a miraculously quick recovery since they took an in-person exam today).
Damn it. Time to email their advisor.
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 20, 2023, 04:50:47 PM
Update: student lied
They didn't have any other exams that day, online or in person. They also didn't have COVID (or else they had a miraculously quick recovery since they took an in-person exam today).
Damn it. Time to email their advisor.
And this is why I'm a mean old hard ass. I did my time in purgatory raising two teen-aged girls and being a human lie-detector 24/7; I was a lot younger and more energetic back then. I'll give the benefit of the doubt to students who've earned it, but others? Nope.
Summary of an email I just received:
QuoteDear Prof. Traductio,
I'm sorry for not coming to the exam today. My cat and dog got fight this afternoon.
That's a new one for me, but you know what? I'll take it. This semester has been rough for everyone (myself included), and I think the student is being honest and genuinely cares for her animals. So on the strength of that willingness to show compassion, I'll give her a makeup exam.
(I'm actually offering makeup exams to a lot of people, some of whom had -- or claimed to have -- Covid. I told them stay the heck home if they're sick, and I meant it.)
Quote from: traductio on March 23, 2023, 05:27:42 AM
Summary of an email I just received:
QuoteDear Prof. Traductio,
I'm sorry for not coming to the exam today. My cat and dog got fight this afternoon.
That's a new one for me, but you know what? I'll take it. This semester has been rough for everyone (myself included), and I think the student is being honest and genuinely cares for her animals. So on the strength of that willingness to show compassion, I'll give her a makeup exam.
But tell her she needs to get an animal sitter for this one.
This email was sent by a senior, in a senior level course, at 9:30 PM on Friday. Senior students know because they've all had me in class before, and it's in the syllabus, that I do not answer email on the weekends. The project was initially due at 12 noon on Friday so I could take the results of their work and start running analyses on them over the weekend, but I extended the deadline to 9 AM today (Monday) because a couple students had had verified problems with getting the software to behave, but honestly if they'd started the project on time, the couple of blips caused by server issues would not have been a big deal.
--------------
[No salutation]
Im having an issue with the [part of project]. Im not able to [do thing that my freshmen do on a regular basis]. I heard in lab about [problem he's not having] but am not sure if thats the issue or how to fix that.
--------------
I found his message when I arrived at 8 this morning. He'd followed it up with another "I still can't get it to work, you have to help me," message, and I replied with a few potential common fixes that I'm not sure he'll be able to do before the dropbox goes into "late submission" mode and deducts points for late work. I'm eagerly (or not) awaiting a ranting message about not being helpful. **sigh** He was complaining in class last week how the project would be SO much easier if he could just [do something totally different], which does not meet the goals of the project. I tried to explain to him that whilst doing [the different thing] was something that could be done with the technology, it was not the point of the project we were doing in class, even if he did that sort of thing at his job.
Dear graduate student,
Thank you for your email explaining why you can not attend class in-person and requesting to zoom in. But do consider the message you are sending when you tell me you cannot attend class because you are essentially running an errand. I know I've been sick and exhausted this semester, so I'm probably being more lenient than I want to be. But maybe just go with a generic "personal reasons" so you are not telegraphing exactly how little you care about this course.
Dr. OMY
Though I understand discretion, I found "personal reasons" could be literally anything, and the one that tended to be overused with me ("family crisis") too often turned out not to be "brother in ICU" or something similar, but "sister broke up with boyfriend" or some other random drama.
Quote from: bacardiandlime on April 03, 2023, 04:13:21 AM
Though I understand discretion, I found "personal reasons" could be literally anything, and the one that tended to be overused with me ("family crisis") too often turned out not to be "brother in ICU" or something similar, but "sister broke up with boyfriend" or some other random drama.
This is the way we learn how to manage these things. If we have a very clear, specific reason for why we can't fulfill some commitment, we are specific. "I have strep throat." "My kid woke up with a fever." If the explanation is more convoluted, even if missing the commitment is more or less unavoidable, we tend to be more vague. It is possible that the way this student's life is arranged, they really don't have any other options but to run the errand during class. Or maybe they could have done it during another class instead, or cancelled something else in their life, but are prioritizing the other thing. That might be a perfectly reasonable choice, it's just that nobody is really going to care about the long explanation, especially if it seems like you're telling them you think their thing is less important than your thing.
Quote from: bacardiandlime on April 03, 2023, 04:13:21 AM
Though I understand discretion, I found "personal reasons" could be literally anything, and the one that tended to be overused with me ("family crisis") too often turned out not to be "brother in ICU" or something similar, but "sister broke up with boyfriend" or some other random drama.
This is the reason to avoid
any "excused absences"; having to
vet every excuse for validity is
way more bother than it's worth.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 03, 2023, 06:15:11 AM
Quote from: bacardiandlime on April 03, 2023, 04:13:21 AM
Though I understand discretion, I found "personal reasons" could be literally anything, and the one that tended to be overused with me ("family crisis") too often turned out not to be "brother in ICU" or something similar, but "sister broke up with boyfriend" or some other random drama.
This is the reason to avoid any "excused absences"; having to vet every excuse for validity is way more bother than it's worth.
This. In my classes, students are allowed a certain number of absences. For any reason. They do not have to notify me, they do not have to send me doctor's notes. If they miss more than this, or if they miss an exam, then questions of justification may come into play. This has made my life much easier, and I hope theirs as well.
The way I handle absences from lab is:
Top choice: have them attend another section that week (I don't really care WHY you missed as long as you can attend another).
Next choice: online make-up version of the assignment. Yes, it's hard, but you have until the end of the week. (works great for students who can't attend another section. I'll still ask why they were gone.)
Only with documentation: excused from assignments. This is only for students who are hospitalized, on a bus for 2 days with no wifi (yes, this happens), or other major disruptive event.
One thing I really dislike about 10-week quarters is that missing one lab = you missed 10% of the lab portion of the class. And if the lab is a stand-alone class that earns it's own grade (looking at you physiology!), then missing one lab really hurts your grade.
I had a major paper assignment due last night that was assigned from day one (in fact, posted the week before the semester began in January). I sent weekly reminders about the assignment because it requires students to schedule and conduct an informational interview. I offered to help students find someone to interview, and reminded them numerous times to schedule the interview early so they have time to complete the paper. I received an email yesterday afternoon from a student asking for an extension because they had not interviewed anyone yet (no other excuse). I said no, and somehow the student submitted a paper before the deadline. This is a graduate student who has taken a class with me before, but I suppose I cannot be surprised by anything at this point.
Thanks, folks. It appears my annoyance may have been misplaced. I have easy-for-me absence policies typically-- miss X number of classes---no questions asked, no excuse required. These policies worked perfectly in the before-COVID times. But now, it's the zoom hy-flexing I need to get easier policies for. I'm teaching in-person (none of my classes are designated as flex or hybrid--they are either in-person or online), but we've been strongly encouraged to flex for students who have emergencies/issues preventing them from attending in-person that day. I had 1/3 of my students online today in one of my classes, all reporting various issues. I suppose the horse has left the barn, and I should just open the link and allow students in and avoid being annoyed by the excuses. Anyone have good remote access policies for in-person classes that you are satisfied with?
I think I will save my effort for insisting my Fall grad lab class is in-person only next year----that one class needs to be nonflexed for specific logistical and accreditation reasons.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 03, 2023, 05:55:34 PM
Anyone have good remote access policies for in-person classes that you are satisfied with? .
To be honest, my remote access policy is that I do not have remote access for in-person classes. Every week I get students who ask me if they can Zoom to one of my classes for what is probably a legitimate reason (illness, car breaking down, etc). My response is always the same: I won't penalize the student for being absent, but that there is no "Zoom option".
If a student has Covid for two weeks, they miss two weeks' class. They can get the notes, I am happy to talk to them, and they can make up the work. But I don't want to have Zoom access. Because once you start allowing somebody to Zoom, you pretty much have to allow everybody to Zoom, and then it is not an in-person class.
Of course, if the administration forces you to have a hybrid class, well, there's not much you can do. But my personal preference is to either have a session be remote, or in-person, but not both.
In classes where it makes sense, I am now zoom recording all sessions and make them available to all students.So people who need to miss class can catch up by watching the recording, and everyone can use the recordings to clarify confusions or for studying. I do enough in-class "free points" stuff that people generally don't miss unless they need to (and I have a "drop the lowest 2 or 3 in class assignments" policy to deal with real illnesses etc).
For classes where the process is as much of the point as the content, I don't record and I don't flex people in remotely. I have a section indicating that the number of drops I allow represents how many times a student can miss class and still meet the learning goals and leave it at that.
Ugh, I'm glad that we are not being pressured to provide remote options. I honestly think that the "old school/before Zoom was a thing/no recording" where absent students just get notes from a friend is the better option.
I know I'll probably get jumped on for saying this, but I feel that offering the flexibility to not go to class means that the students who really ought to be in class simply will not go (or watch the videos either). This flexibility that is meant to support their learning is actually hurting them. And the students who go to class AND watch videos to refine their notes or whatever are the students that will do just fine with no recordings to watch.
While I can't say I've ever had any experience with hybrid classes, they seem like a generally bad idea for all kinds of reasons. So I'm with jerseyjay--either in-person or online classes can be done in a way that makes sense, but they need to be one or the other. I'd be afraid that a "Zoom option" would turn into a crutch for lazy or disorganized students. I guess I can see recording lectures for a class that is strongly lecture-focused.
I graduated from my undergrad degree n 2014. I had plenty of profs who both lectured and recorded their classes. The in-person lectures were still full, and it was sometimes difficult to find a seat in class! The recordings were very handy for review, for those occasions when you needed to miss a class due to illness or other significant issue, for those with certain types of accommodations, and for those of us who were volunteer notetakers for the accessibility centre, as we would confirm our notes were complete. This is also the approach I take now as a PhD candidate. I don't want students with COVID coming to class, nor do I want to make it difficult for students with chronic diseases or disabilities to access the course content. Granted, this is easier with lecture-heavy courses, which many first and second year courses in my discipline are, simply because of having 100+ students per section. Upper years are more hands-on, but can also be delivered online or hybrid with some creative thinking and using non-traditional approaches. Students certainly appreciate the flexibility. As most undergrad students in my discipline want to become professionals in my discipline, they may be more motivated to engage online or with recordings, as placements to acquire the professional designation as very, very competitive.
The zoom/recording option also assumes that the students DO NOT need to interact with you or with their classmates. We know that straight lecture is not a good way to teach. If your classes are so one-directional (you give content to students), then you're honestly not a good instructor, regardless of the modality. It is HARD to create good hybrid classes simply because it is really challenging to incorporate student-student interactions.
And different populations of students need different types of support. Our students are mostly first-to-college, not very prepared academically, and need to go to class. Giving them the option to "just watch the video later!" is setting them up to fail because they will get behind and not be able to catch up. They are still learning how to be a responsible student, many are trying to balance work and school and family obligations. The "You need to go to class/take notes/read the materials" message hasn't sunk in yet.
Yes, I know some will be successful, regardless of instructional method - we can't pat ourselves on the back too hard for them since they would succeed anywhere. And some will fail, regardless of support system - can't drag anyone kicking and screaming towards success. But it's the students in the middle that really need the reinforced exceptions of "GO TO CLASS".
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 04, 2023, 11:53:48 AM
Our students are mostly first-to-college, not very prepared academically, and need to go to class. Giving them the option to "just watch the video later!" is setting them up to fail because they will get behind and not be able to catch up.
This.
I found it very frustrating, pre-pandemic, that the students most likely to take up the "just watch the lecture recording" option were the first-gen, ESL, students: those who most needed the support of being in class, and the cultural and social capital that comes with it.
We are selling them short by treating attendance as optional - especially if we're covering it with claims of "accessibility", as well as devaluing the classroom experience.
Alas, this seems to be setting in as the situation post-covid.
We have a population of faculty who still want to use CV19 as a reason for all remote, all the time.
They have been told in no uncertain terms, return to in-person in the fall, or resign, or retire.
There was cheering from at least some of us on the STEM side of campus. who've been doing f2f all along (save the 2 mo. initial closures).
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 04, 2023, 11:53:48 AM
The zoom/recording option also assumes that the students DO NOT need to interact with you or with their classmates. We know that straight lecture is not a good way to teach. If your classes are so one-directional (you give content to students), then you're honestly not a good instructor, regardless of the modality. It is HARD to create good hybrid classes simply because it is really challenging to incorporate student-student interactions.
And different populations of students need different types of support. Our students are mostly first-to-college, not very prepared academically, and need to go to class. Giving them the option to "just watch the video later!" is setting them up to fail because they will get behind and not be able to catch up. They are still learning how to be a responsible student, many are trying to balance work and school and family obligations. The "You need to go to class/take notes/read the materials" message hasn't sunk in yet.
Yes, I know some will be successful, regardless of instructional method - we can't pat ourselves on the back too hard for them since they would succeed anywhere. And some will fail, regardless of support system - can't drag anyone kicking and screaming towards success. But it's the students in the middle that really need the reinforced exceptions of "GO TO CLASS".
But in my experience there are other ways to get (my population of) students to come to class, and the recordings become a way for them to review or check their understanding of something they did not get the first time. I am very clear that the recordings aren't a substitute for the in person experience. But if someone is ill (and I do
not want people with covid coming to class) the recordings are a better way to catch up then a classmate's notes.
Quote from: FishProf on April 04, 2023, 02:11:50 PM
We have a population of faculty who still want to use CV19 as a reason for all remote, all the time.
They have been told in no uncertain terms, return to in-person in the fall, or resign, or retire.
There was cheering from at least some of us on the STEM side of campus. who've been doing f2f all along (save the 2 mo. initial closures).
I wish the admincritters at my school would take the same stance — I'm really tired of the inequitable treatment.
Interesting discussion.
FWIW from my perspective in Australia, we have a lot of students who work (at least almost) full time and/or have family caring responsibilities. If the timetable were arranged so that all an individual's learning were in blocks, then it would make sense to require them to attend. But I cannot see how we can demand that students attend for poorly timetabled single hour sessions that may interfere with their other responsibilities. Particularly if those sessions do not involve the acquisition of hands on skills.
Quote from: FishProf on April 04, 2023, 02:11:50 PM
We have a population of faculty who still want to use CV19 as a reason for all remote, all the time.
They have been told in no uncertain terms, return to in-person in the fall, or resign, or retire.
There was cheering from at least some of us on the STEM side of campus. who've been doing f2f all along (save the 2 mo. initial closures).
Before the pandemic, my university was all about "Develop online courses! We need more online courses!" Now it's "We don't want any online courses! Stop requesting online courses!"
But ... online asynchronous courses are boons to a number of students, as well as to a number of faculty. Some students have jobs that keep changing their hours unpredictably, and an online class ensures they can keep the job and their progress through college. Some courses are particularly suited to online methods. And Covid is still the third leading cause of death in the U.S. So those of us who are older, who have underlying conditions like asthma or diabetes or both — it's not mere whim and self-indulgence that leads us to request more online courses.
Quote from: Hegemony on April 09, 2023, 05:39:04 AM
Quote from: FishProf on April 04, 2023, 02:11:50 PM
We have a population of faculty who still want to use CV19 as a reason for all remote, all the time.
They have been told in no uncertain terms, return to in-person in the fall, or resign, or retire.
There was cheering from at least some of us on the STEM side of campus. who've been doing f2f all along (save the 2 mo. initial closures).
Before the pandemic, my university was all about "Develop online courses! We need more online courses!" Now it's "We don't want any online courses! Stop requesting online courses!"
But ... online asynchronous courses are boons to a number of students, as well as to a number of faculty.
Bingo. Asynchronous courses can take advantage of being online. Synchronous online courses are the worst of both worlds.
There is a difference between "more" as you said, and "all" as I said.
We have an entire department that tried to schedule the Fall 23 schedule as online.
As is often the case, reasonable accommodations get swamped (and then lost) in the sea of unreasonable accommodations.
As students become more proficient at using AI like Chat GPT, and as the AI gets better, online asynchronous classes are going to be increasingly difficult to teach in a meaningful way. That doesn't necessarily mean that students don't learn -- not all students cheat. But a lot do, and that means that 3 credits in an online class doesn't guarantee much learning. That's true of any work submitted online, but a lot of online classes have a major discussion component, so it is especially pressing for online courses. I haven't heard of any administration with a good or even a weak solution to this worry. Individual faculty have some solutions but it's unclear how much cheating that eliminates. I guess a lot of people are hoping that Turnitin's AI detector is good enough. But the problem does pose a threat to the future of online courses.
True enough. The courses I teach are so niche that AI can't handle them. One student tried to turn in a chatbot-written assignment and it stood out a mile; it was all bland generalities and nothing about the actual texts we're studying. (Yes, I turned her in for academic misconduct.)
I also have the students use Hypothesis to write group annotations on some of our texts, and chatbots would be entirely unable to handle the kind of annotations needed. It also helps that chatbots are currently unable to quote accurately (they make up quotes) and provide accurate citations (they make up articles and page numbers and the like). Whatever the future holds, there's a lot the chatbots currently can't handle at all.
Quote from: Hegemony on April 09, 2023, 06:44:22 AM
True enough. The courses I teach are so niche that AI can't handle them. One student tried to turn in a chatbot-written assignment and it stood out a mile; it was all bland generalities and nothing about the actual texts we're studying. (Yes, I turned her in for academic misconduct.)
I also have the students use Hypothesis to write group annotations on some of our texts, and chatbots would be entirely unable to handle the kind of annotations needed. It also helps that chatbots are currently unable to quote accurately (they make up quotes) and provide accurate citations (they make up articles and page numbers and the like). Whatever the future holds, there's a lot the chatbots currently can't handle at all.
Yes. I use a lot of case studies in my online courses. ChatGPT and the like can't really account for all of the nuances. Like recommending a fish oil supplement for a vegetarian. Umm, no. For purely factual assignments it seems okay (passing grade, but not top grades) except for the made up citations. Asking it to review and comment upon a given program or intervention , using a method we've learned in class, produces something not worthy of a passing grade. I'm using the free version. The new paid version may do better.
Quote from: science.expat on April 08, 2023, 11:12:42 PM
Interesting discussion.
FWIW from my perspective in Australia, we have a lot of students who work (at least almost) full time and/or have family caring responsibilities. If the timetable were arranged so that all an individual's learning were in blocks, then it would make sense to require them to attend. But I cannot see how we can demand that students attend for poorly timetabled single hour sessions that may interfere with their other responsibilities. Particularly if those sessions do not involve the acquisition of hands on skills.
I suppose a lot of university class scheduling is still based on the assumption of traditional-age students who live on campus and whose lives and schedules can reasonably be expected to revolve around their schooling. They're responsible for arranging their schedules around whatever class schedule the school sees fit to draw up. And of course that's no longer a reasonable assumption for many student populations.
Quote from: Hegemony on April 09, 2023, 05:39:04 AM
Quote from: FishProf on April 04, 2023, 02:11:50 PM
We have a population of faculty who still want to use CV19 as a reason for all remote, all the time.
They have been told in no uncertain terms, return to in-person in the fall, or resign, or retire.
There was cheering from at least some of us on the STEM side of campus. who've been doing f2f all along (save the 2 mo. initial closures).
Before the pandemic, my university was all about "Develop online courses! We need more online courses!" Now it's "We don't want any online courses! Stop requesting online courses!"
Well, what can we say? The Plague Year when everything was online taught them to be careful what they ask for.
I see your point about how
some still have legitimate concerns regarding face-to-face classes.
Quote from: downer on April 09, 2023, 06:39:37 AM
As students become more proficient at using AI like Chat GPT, and as the AI gets better, online asynchronous classes are going to be increasingly difficult to teach in a meaningful way. That doesn't necessarily mean that students don't learn -- not all students cheat. But a lot do, and that means that 3 credits in an online class doesn't guarantee much learning. That's true of any work submitted online, but a lot of online classes have a major discussion component, so it is especially pressing for online courses. I haven't heard of any administration with a good or even a weak solution to this worry. Individual faculty have some solutions but it's unclear how much cheating that eliminates. I guess a lot of people are hoping that Turnitin's AI detector is good enough. But the problem does pose a threat to the future of online courses.
AI cheating really does threaten to undermine the credibility of online education. I'm not one to assume that because an AI application has made dramatic progress recently that it's going to just keep on racing ahead indefinitely--if that was the case, we'd already have large numbers of fully autonomous vehicles on the road, and it's evident from the way that technology has plateaued that that's not happening anytime soon. But
plagiarism bots AI writing tools like Chat GPT are already obviously effective enough to be disruptive in many cases.
Quote from: science.expat on April 08, 2023, 11:12:42 PM
Interesting discussion.
FWIW from my perspective in Australia, we have a lot of students who work (at least almost) full time and/or have family caring responsibilities. If the timetable were arranged so that all an individual's learning were in blocks, then it would make sense to require them to attend. But I cannot see how we can demand that students attend for poorly timetabled single hour sessions that may interfere with their other responsibilities. Particularly if those sessions do not involve the acquisition of hands on skills.
I just came across an editorial by a U Michigan student on low attendance in regular classes. The student assumes students are staying in their dorm rooms.
https://www.michigandaily.com/opinion/are-traditional-college-classes-becoming-obsolete/
This is at Ann Arbor, supposedly an elite university.
Quote from: apl68 on April 10, 2023, 07:25:19 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 09, 2023, 05:39:04 AM
Quote from: FishProf on April 04, 2023, 02:11:50 PM
We have a population of faculty who still want to use CV19 as a reason for all remote, all the time.
They have been told in no uncertain terms, return to in-person in the fall, or resign, or retire.
There was cheering from at least some of us on the STEM side of campus. who've been doing f2f all along (save the 2 mo. initial closures).
Before the pandemic, my university was all about "Develop online courses! We need more online courses!" Now it's "We don't want any online courses! Stop requesting online courses!"
Well, what can we say? The Plague Year when everything was online taught them to be careful what they ask for.
I see your point about how some still have legitimate concerns regarding face-to-face classes.
Given that even a mild COVID infection carries the risk of long COVID along with increased risk of death, I'm very surprised that academics as a whole are okay with going back to face to face classes. I guess people want to believe COVID is no big deal, even though the scientific evidence shows that an infection can cause dysfunction in multiple organ systems.
These decisions have to be about balancing risk and reward. There is more at stake than just avoiding Covid. At some point, the risk amelioration (vaccines, boosters, stay home if sick) reaches the tipping point. Risk tolerance depends on a lot of factors, and they are mostly individual-level now.
We are at an optimization phase now.
Quote from: FishProf on April 11, 2023, 04:07:10 AM
These decisions have to be about balancing risk and reward. There is more at stake than just avoiding Covid. At some point, the risk amelioration (vaccines, boosters, stay home if sick) reaches the tipping point. Risk tolerance depends on a lot of factors, and they are mostly individual-level now.
We are at an optimization phase now.
Yup. And our ongoing prospects of handling it are based on the reality of an
ongoing steady state, like the flu. I don't plan to wear a mask to teach for the rest of my career; I'm up to date with boosters, and take reasonable precautions. I'm not immunocompromised, and when I got covid a year ago it was pretty much like a normal cold or flu.
So it's not that "COVID is no big deal"; it's that it's like many other risks that
can't be eliminated without basically becoming a hermit, but can be kept
reasonably low by well-established and
reasonable precautions.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 11, 2023, 05:25:38 AM
I'm not immunocompromised, and when I got covid a year ago it was pretty much like a normal cold or flu.
So it's not that "COVID is no big deal"; it's that it's like many other risks that can't be eliminated without basically becoming a hermit, but can be kept reasonably low by well-established and reasonable precautions.
It would be as well to realize that the risk is greater for many people, even those who may look fine and healthy on the outside. When I last got the flu — despite having a flu shot — it literally nearly killed me. When I arrived at the Emergency Room, they took my vitals and people immediately began running, I mean literally running, in several directions because I was very nearly at a very dangerous point, as a nurse friend explained to me afterwards. And even if I were guaranteed to live through another episode like that, the agony of it is something I'd go a long way not to repeat. Not to mention the look on people's faces and the fear of what was coming next. I overheard one doctor say to another, "We thought we were going to lose her." I'd prefer not to take that gamble again, thank you very much. Which is why I continued to wear a mask, even though I hate the mask. It's why I also feel pretty outraged when people tell me, condescendingly, "But you have to live your life!" Continuing to live my life is exactly what I want, which is why I will continue to take precautions. My own guess is that in the future, as the continuing aftereffects of Covid infection, and multiple Covid infections, become apparent, many people will wish they had erred a little more on the side of caution.
I'm seeing a HUGE increase in students emailing to say "I'll be late to lab" or "I won't be in lab this week" and expect to have no consequences. Nope, not how this works.
Quote from: Hegemony on April 11, 2023, 09:40:18 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 11, 2023, 05:25:38 AM
I'm not immunocompromised, and when I got covid a year ago it was pretty much like a normal cold or flu.
So it's not that "COVID is no big deal"; it's that it's like many other risks that can't be eliminated without basically becoming a hermit, but can be kept reasonably low by well-established and reasonable precautions.
It would be as well to realize that the risk is greater for many people, even those who may look fine and healthy on the outside.
Of course, but that goes both ways.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on April 10, 2023, 12:49:23 PM
Given that even a mild COVID infection carries the risk of long COVID along with increased risk of death, I'm very surprised that academics as a whole are okay with going back to face to face classes. I guess people want to believe COVID is no big deal, even though the scientific evidence shows that an infection can cause dysfunction in multiple organ systems.
For people who are
not at increased risk, which
also can't just be determined by looking at them, going back to face-to-face can be done reasonably safely.
Whether people want to go back to face-to-face or not cannot be taken as proof of whether people underestimate, (or for that matter,
overestimate), the risk of covid to themselves, since the risk varies significantly between individuals.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 11, 2023, 10:44:13 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 11, 2023, 09:40:18 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 11, 2023, 05:25:38 AM
I'm not immunocompromised, and when I got covid a year ago it was pretty much like a normal cold or flu.
So it's not that "COVID is no big deal"; it's that it's like many other risks that can't be eliminated without basically becoming a hermit, but can be kept reasonably low by well-established and reasonable precautions.
It would be as well to realize that the risk is greater for many people, even those who may look fine and healthy on the outside.
Of course, but that goes both ways.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on April 10, 2023, 12:49:23 PM
Given that even a mild COVID infection carries the risk of long COVID along with increased risk of death, I'm very surprised that academics as a whole are okay with going back to face to face classes. I guess people want to believe COVID is no big deal, even though the scientific evidence shows that an infection can cause dysfunction in multiple organ systems.
For people who are not at increased risk, which also can't just be determined by looking at them, going back to face-to-face can be done reasonably safely.
Whether people want to go back to face-to-face or not cannot be taken as proof of whether people underestimate, (or for that matter, overestimate), the risk of covid to themselves, since the risk varies significantly between individuals.
How many of the people who were extra concerned about illness
after COVID are the same ones who were immunocompromised or otherwise extremely concerned
before COVID?
And, if it's a new concern, is it about... new awareness of general risk? Having current symptoms of long COVID? New health problems that arose naturally over time anyway?
Before COVID there was always risk of illness, car accidents, toxic fumes, whatever. One is (almost) always safest, isolated, in one's own home.
So... is there a new line?
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 11, 2023, 05:25:38 AM
Quote from: FishProf on April 11, 2023, 04:07:10 AM
These decisions have to be about balancing risk and reward. There is more at stake than just avoiding Covid. At some point, the risk amelioration (vaccines, boosters, stay home if sick) reaches the tipping point. Risk tolerance depends on a lot of factors, and they are mostly individual-level now.
We are at an optimization phase now.
Yup. And our ongoing prospects of handling it are based on the reality of an ongoing steady state, like the flu. I don't plan to wear a mask to teach for the rest of my career; I'm up to date with boosters, and take reasonable precautions. I'm not immunocompromised, and when I got covid a year ago it was pretty much like a normal cold or flu.
So it's not that "COVID is no big deal"; it's that it's like many other risks that can't be eliminated without basically becoming a hermit, but can be kept reasonably low by well-established and reasonable precautions.
The research shows that COVID is far more serious than the flu, affecting multiple organ systems in ways that the flu never has. Some people get lucky. Many don't, and end up with long COVID or dying from heart attacks, strokes, and other conditions, due to the effects COVID has on the body. I'll be wearing a respirator any time I'm in public, including teaching, until we have better air quality and ventilation, and better vaccines and treatments for COVID. I've read the scientific literature, and I know far too many people who have long COVID or who have lost previously, young, healthy family and friends due to heart attacks and strokes after even a mild bout of COVID, to imagine doing anything else. It's not like wearing a mask in public is a huge burden for the majority of individuals (I recognize some find masks difficult or burdensome). COVID is much closer to SARS from 2002-2003 than the flu. Look at the literature on people who experienced SARS back then. The majority are still dealing with the effects of their infections.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on April 11, 2023, 11:35:04 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 11, 2023, 05:25:38 AM
Quote from: FishProf on April 11, 2023, 04:07:10 AM
These decisions have to be about balancing risk and reward. There is more at stake than just avoiding Covid. At some point, the risk amelioration (vaccines, boosters, stay home if sick) reaches the tipping point. Risk tolerance depends on a lot of factors, and they are mostly individual-level now.
We are at an optimization phase now.
Yup. And our ongoing prospects of handling it are based on the reality of an ongoing steady state, like the flu. I don't plan to wear a mask to teach for the rest of my career; I'm up to date with boosters, and take reasonable precautions. I'm not immunocompromised, and when I got covid a year ago it was pretty much like a normal cold or flu.
So it's not that "COVID is no big deal"; it's that it's like many other risks that can't be eliminated without basically becoming a hermit, but can be kept reasonably low by well-established and reasonable precautions.
The research shows that COVID is far more serious than the flu, affecting multiple organ systems in ways that the flu never has. Some people get lucky. Many don't, and end up with long COVID or dying from heart attacks, strokes, and other conditions, due to the effects COVID has on the body. I'll be wearing a respirator any time I'm in public, including teaching, until we have better air quality and ventilation, and better vaccines and treatments for COVID. I've read the scientific literature, and I know far too many people who have long COVID or who have lost previously, young, healthy family and friends due to heart attacks and strokes after even a mild bout of COVID, to imagine doing anything else. It's not like wearing a mask in public is a huge burden for the majority of individuals (I recognize some find masks difficult or burdensome). COVID is much closer to SARS from 2002-2003 than the flu. Look at the literature on people who experienced SARS back then. The majority are still dealing with the effects of their infections.
Human beings are terrible at estimating risk. We can learn, but if we have no experience, and we don't with Covid, we tend to assume the equi-probability of the unknown.
The place to start learning about risk from Covid is from the CDC which calculates death rates from Covid by age group and by co-morbidities. Try to find where one fits in oneself. The risk is not nearly as high as most people think except for the very old and those with comorbidities.
Among the young, the risk is trivial. That doesn't mean that you are seeing things, it just means you are in an unusual situation.
Such facts calm the nerves, but there are wrong ways of calming the nerves. I am wary of the effectiveness of masks, though N95 worn properly perhaps helps.
Be that as it may, effective vaccines have turned all this into a private problem, it is no longer a public problem. Any degree of risk aversion one has is perfectly personal and fine, but it is best decided after one knows the relevant probabilities.
I might agree, but this is from the guy who doesn't really think there are any public problems, because free market competition will solve all public problems. So that's a different starting point than everyone else.
Quote from: downer on April 11, 2023, 02:29:51 PM
I might agree, but this is from the guy who doesn't really think there are any public problems, because free market competition will solve all public problems. So that's a different starting point than everyone else.
I never said free market competition will solve all public problems. It would solve some of the problems most people call public, though they are not.
Before the advent of effective vaccines, Covid was a public problem; I said
after the advent of effective vaccines Covid has become a private problem.
I don't mind people disagreeing with me; I do mind the disagreement with something they haven't read.
Quote from: dismalist on April 11, 2023, 02:39:12 PM
Quote from: downer on April 11, 2023, 02:29:51 PM
I might agree, but this is from the guy who doesn't really think there are any public problems, because free market competition will solve all public problems. So that's a different starting point than everyone else.
I never said free market competition will solve all public problems. It would solve some of the problems most people call public, though they are not.
Before the advent of effective vaccines, Covid was a public problem; I said after the advent of effective vaccines Covid has become a private problem.
I don't mind people disagreeing with me; I do mind the disagreement with something they haven't read.
Ok, I have read it (multiple times, and before you asked because I track these things pretty closely). I will simply point out that death is not the only possible negative outcome of covid, and it's WAY harder to get good numbers about non-lethal risks of covid. But what info is out there suggests that fear of death might not be the only thing to consider on a list of reasons one might want to avoid catching covid, or among reasons society at large might worry about covid transmission.
Quote from: onthefringe on April 11, 2023, 05:23:00 PM
Quote from: dismalist on April 11, 2023, 02:39:12 PM
Quote from: downer on April 11, 2023, 02:29:51 PM
I might agree, but this is from the guy who doesn't really think there are any public problems, because free market competition will solve all public problems. So that's a different starting point than everyone else.
I never said free market competition will solve all public problems. It would solve some of the problems most people call public, though they are not.
Before the advent of effective vaccines, Covid was a public problem; I said after the advent of effective vaccines Covid has become a private problem.
I don't mind people disagreeing with me; I do mind the disagreement with something they haven't read.
Ok, I have read it (multiple times, and before you asked because I track these things pretty closely). I will simply point out that death is not the only possible negative outcome of covid, and it's WAY harder to get good numbers about non-lethal risks of covid. But what info is out there suggests that fear of death might not be the only thing to consider on a list of reasons one might want to avoid catching covid, or among reasons society at large might worry about covid transmission.
I absolutely agree. Everyone will decide for him or herself how much risk to bear. There is indeed more worry than death, but absence of data does not mean that death data should be ignored.
Transmission is really a question of property rights. Do we force the anti-vaxxers to vax or do we vax ourselves? As far as I can tell, the vaxxed still transmit, so force is insufficient, though they do transmit less on account they catch it less. Vaxxing oneself is far more effective than having others vax. That's why I can call Covid protection a private good. I'm really doing an informal cost-benefit analysis, a guess, in other words, that it costs me less to vaccinate than to force anti-vaxxers to vaccinate, 'ya know police, riots, the lot. All gotta be paid for.
A significant practical matter to affect the use of force calculus is that Covid hardly affects the young and very young, whereas the vaccines that we force the young to take prevent infection from diseases that particularly affect the young. I saw my daughter suffer from being stuck six times with various vaccs when it was time to go to school. It was worth it in sum to her and others, a choice she could not have made at the age of six. But that's just another cost-benefit analysis.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on April 11, 2023, 11:35:04 AM
The research shows that COVID is far more serious than the flu, affecting multiple organ systems in ways that the flu never has. Some people get lucky. Many don't, and end up with long COVID or dying from heart attacks, strokes, and other conditions, due to the effects COVID has on the body. I'll be wearing a respirator any time I'm in public, including teaching, until we have better air quality and ventilation, and better vaccines and treatments for COVID. I've read the scientific literature, and I know far too many people who have long COVID or who have lost previously, young, healthy family and friends due to heart attacks and strokes after even a mild bout of COVID, to imagine doing anything else. It's not like wearing a mask in public is a huge burden for the majority of individuals (I recognize some find masks difficult or burdensome). COVID is much closer to SARS from 2002-2003 than the flu. Look at the literature on people who experienced SARS back then. The majority are still dealing with the effects of their infections.
It doesn't really make sense to think of Coronaviruses as inherently lethal. Sars was a coronavirus, but so are several extremely common viruses that cause cold symptoms that are rarely anything more than a nuisance. The main reason Covid appears to be far more deadly than these viruses is because it is novel. There was actually a deadly pandemic in the 1880s that was assumed to have been flu, but when some people looked back at the accounts they found that many of the symptoms sounded a lot like the covid pandemic and that it appears to have been particularly bad for the elderly and there were very few reports of deaths among children, in contrast to flu viruses. Sequencing of one of the endemic coronaviruses viruses puts the time of emergence right in the 1880s time frame. It's possible that this coronavirus, which is now just an endemic virus that causes cold symptoms, emerged in the 1880s and caused a deadly pandemic. Why is this virus just mostly a nuisance now? Because everyone is exposed to it repeatedly in childhood and our immune systems become familiar with it and can quickly deal with it.
Covid is pretty clearly on a similar trajectory because of the combination of infection and vaccination. Covid is still all over the place, but despite new variants, the hospitalization and death numbers were way down last year. We aren't yet at the point where it has just become a nuisance virus, and it still is much more dangerous than the flu, but things are quite different now than they were three years ago. Of course, risk varies and people can make their own calculations and should be accommodating about the calculations others make. For various reasons, I'm still wearing a mask in class.
Hey - guys - can you please take your COVID discussion back over to the COVID thread? I come here for the heart-warming quotes from student emails...
I'm getting the "I'm sick" emails, but with the BONUS content of describing their symptoms in icky detail.
Please don't tell me the color of your snot. If you say you think you have a sinus infection/the flu, I'll say I'm sorry to hear you are sick & suggest you please seek medical care.
I've heard it's like this only 1000x worse if you are teaching microbiology.
A series, for your reading enjoyment:
Yesterday, 9:40 a.m.
Hi,
I was wondering if there was any chance, I could have a small extension on the assignments today I have been very sick recently and just went to urgent care. I can even get them done by tonight I just need alittle more time.
Thank you,
9:48 a.m.
Student,
I don't mind giving an extension, BUT, did you read the email I sent you via Canvas yesterday? Here's a copy of it:
Student,
Tomorrow is the final day to withdraw from this class. Your current grade of 198 points means that you would need to earn an additional 502 points to pass with the lowest C (700 total points). Since there are only 490 points left in the semester, you cannot pass, and you should consider withdrawing.
Be sure to speak with an Academic Advisor and a Financial Aid Advisor before dropping this or any other class.
Prof. AmLitHist
You really should WITHDRAW from this class to avoid having the F on your transcript. Today is the last day to do that—you must do it yourself, and the withdrawal must be made by 5 p.m.; the Registrar does not allow any extensions.
If you choose to remain in the class, you can have the extension, but again, it's not going to help you earn the C that you need to pass the class; you'll have to retake Comp I in the future if you earn a D or an F.
Let me know if you have further questions.
Prof. AmLitHist
5:21 p.m.
Hi professor AmLitHist,
Is there any way I can still withdraw? I've been so sick all day and have not been able to withdraw, is there someone I can email or talk to? I just barely missed it
7:09 p.m.
Not that I know of. You can call Admissions on Monday, but I've been talking about today's deadline for a couple of weeks now, and it's been on the schedule since before the class started, so I seriously doubt they're going to be sympathetic.
Prof. AmLitHist
----------------
Context:
The LDW has been prominently posted in every Canvas module all semester.
The LDW is clearly stated on the course syllabus and the course schedule.
I've mentioned the LDW in every Friday's LVL class meeting since spring break.
We took class time a week ago to have each one of them calculate their grade-to-date, to see how many more points they needed to earn the grade they want for the semester (A, B, or C), and to calculate what % grade they'd have to earn on every remaining assignment to earn that final grade. Student was present in that class meeting.
I've sent this student at least 3 emails since midterm, explaining that they weren't going to pass.
I filed three early alerts with Advising, who contacted the student and told them they weren't going to pass.
This is Comp II, and the student has been here since Fall 2020. This is their FIFTH (seriously?) attempt at this class. So far, they have D/F in 16 classes, and it looks like they'll add another 4 F's this semester. based on their midterm grades.
------------
They're already on their second round of academic probation, so, buh-bye--they're out. (I wonder if they're paying out of pocket? I can't imagine financial aid hasn't already cut them off.)
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 13, 2023, 10:14:22 AM
I'm getting the "I'm sick" emails, but with the BONUS content of describing their symptoms in icky detail.
Please don't tell me the color of your snot. If you say you think you have a sinus infection/the flu, I'll say I'm sorry to hear you are sick & suggest you please seek medical care.
I've heard it's like this only 1000x worse if you are teaching microbiology.
No doubt...but surely if you're teaching microbiology you ought to have a much higher threshold of tolerance for this sort of thing than the average prof.
At least tell me the sick students aren't sending selfies....
Quote from: apl68 on April 17, 2023, 09:23:07 AM
No doubt...but surely if you're teaching microbiology you ought to have a much higher threshold of tolerance for this sort of thing than the average prof.
Microbiologists are trained to see the cause of the ick, not the ick itself. Nursing profs on the other hand....
Quote from: apl68 on April 17, 2023, 09:23:07 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 13, 2023, 10:14:22 AM
I'm getting the "I'm sick" emails, but with the BONUS content of describing their symptoms in icky detail.
Please don't tell me the color of your snot. If you say you think you have a sinus infection/the flu, I'll say I'm sorry to hear you are sick & suggest you please seek medical care.
I've heard it's like this only 1000x worse if you are teaching microbiology.
No doubt...but surely if you're teaching microbiology you ought to have a much higher threshold of tolerance for this sort of thing than the average prof.
At least tell me the sick students aren't sending selfies....
Thankfully, very few selfies. But I'm getting some "blow by blow" detailed timelines (e.g. "I woke up at 6 with a bad headache, I drank water, it was too painful to move, I tried to sleep more, but my body is too achy, I have a very bad cough with wetness and the mucus is a bit green, etc."). Just say that you are sick.
The flood of pre-final exam terror emails has begun....
"....I want to do everything in my power to make sure I pass this exam. I feel as though what I am studying is too broad and it is becoming a huge stressor to me. My question for you, is if there is any possible way that it could be narrowed down which dinosaurs to focus on, or which topics to focus on the most. "
No. Everything is fair game. The written final is open note. How much more do you want?
Fishprof
(the evil monster that refuses to provide study guides)
Oh yes, the terror of the comprehensive final exam. They all claim to never have seen one before! Even when I know for a fact that is not true.
Quote from: FishProf on April 24, 2023, 01:38:38 PM
The flood of pre-final exam terror emails has begun....
"....I want to do everything in my power to make sure I pass this exam. I feel as though what I am studying is too broad and it is becoming a huge stressor to me. My question for you, is if there is any possible way that it could be narrowed down which dinosaurs to focus on, or which topics to focus on the most. "
No. Everything is fair game. The written final is open note. How much more do you want?
They don't want more. They want
less. Less work to do. Less information to study.
Quote from: FishProf on April 24, 2023, 01:38:38 PM
(the evil monster that refuses to provide study guides)
One year I had a class that just would not stop asking for a study guide, and finally I gave up. The 2nd slide in all of my slide decks was an outline of that day's lecture. I compiled all of those slides into one slide deck that I now called
Study Guide and posted it. A few students actually thanked me.
As a TA, I once tried to be nice and made study guides for the lectures that covered the more difficult concepts. All that happened was I got complaints for not making study guides for ALL the lectures.
Not sure if I should have explained to those complaining students that I didn't have to make any study guides at all...
My "study guide" is a list of the learning goals and questions from their lab worksheets. They already have all of this information, but me putting it in one document is apparently some sort of magic.
Have any of those fancy edu-researchers looked into whether study guides help or hinder students learning? I do remember seeing old copies of exams when I was a student, which gave me some idea of what to expect.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 25, 2023, 07:15:07 AM
My "study guide" is a list of the learning goals and questions from their lab worksheets. They already have all of this information, but me putting it in one document is apparently some sort of magic.
Yep. I used to get complaints from students that they didn't know what was going to be on the exam. Now I just make a list of the lecture topics and the readings and call it an exam review. Now no complaints.
Quote from: Caracal on April 25, 2023, 09:57:09 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 25, 2023, 07:15:07 AM
My "study guide" is a list of the learning goals and questions from their lab worksheets. They already have all of this information, but me putting it in one document is apparently some sort of magic.
Yep. I used to get complaints from students that they didn't know what was going to be on the exam. Now I just make a list of the lecture topics and the readings and call it an exam review. Now no complaints.
Evidently for many students having
something that suggests a structure for their exam preparation is really helpful, at least psychologically. Sounds like the sorts of things you all are doing are a fairly simple and easy way to win points with students, and put their minds a little more at ease about studying for their exams.
Me, I never did worry much about studying for exams when I was a student. By the time I'd done the readings, done the homework and projects, and attended and paid attention in class, I pretty much had all the material down for the exam. Who knew it was that simple?
Quote from: Caracal on April 25, 2023, 09:57:09 AM
Yep. I used to get complaints from students that they didn't know what was going to be on the exam. Now I just make a list of the lecture topics and the readings and call it an exam review. Now no complaints.
In other words, you give them the syllabus?
I've been giving take-home exams since spring 2020, which students have at least a week to work on, so no need for a study guide. But I've gotten my act together a little more with exam review on the last day of class. I take my big course objectives from my introductory lecture (not "know why such-and-such thing happened" but more like "understand that big shots weren't the only people who made history") and then quiz them for arguments and examples. They did surprisingly well with it this past term and sort of riffed off each other in the Q&A. I'm not sure it helped them on their actual exams, but my hope is that it gave them some practice in how to write answers. But these were strictly essay exams.
Quote from: history_grrrl on April 29, 2023, 01:58:20 PM
Quote from: Caracal on April 25, 2023, 09:57:09 AM
Yep. I used to get complaints from students that they didn't know what was going to be on the exam. Now I just make a list of the lecture topics and the readings and call it an exam review. Now no complaints.
In other words, you give them the syllabus?
I've been giving take-home exams since spring 2020, which students have at least a week to work on, so no need for a study guide. But I've gotten my act together a little more with exam review on the last day of class. I take my big course objectives from my introductory lecture (not "know why such-and-such thing happened" but more like "understand that big shots weren't the only people who made history") and then quiz them for arguments and examples. They did surprisingly well with it this past term and sort of riffed off each other in the Q&A. I'm not sure it helped them on their actual exams, but my hope is that it gave them some practice in how to write answers. But these were strictly essay exams.
When I started teaching, I left the last class meeting open exclusively to questions for review. Questions were frequent for: Could you go over Lecture 1? Could you go over lecture 2? And so on. So, I stopped this nonsense.
Years later, though my reviews on average were very good [with high variance], one student commented on a review: It's the next to last class meeting and we still don't know what's going to be on the final exam!
I was lucky. Such students were few enough and I could safely ignore them.
I refuse to have review sessions. If it's outside of class hours, not everyone can go. And the students who go don't need it. Plus, they have lots of formative assessments - pre labs, worksheets, etc. And a study guide. And the point breakdown in the syllabus. And practice questions! And office hours with me and their TAs.
They can whine all they want, I can easily see that they aren't using the resources we already provide.
Quote from: history_grrrl on April 29, 2023, 01:58:20 PM
Quote from: Caracal on April 25, 2023, 09:57:09 AM
Yep. I used to get complaints from students that they didn't know what was going to be on the exam. Now I just make a list of the lecture topics and the readings and call it an exam review. Now no complaints.
In other words, you give them the syllabus?
Yeah, pretty much. I mean I talk about the exam in class and before the first exam I go over the sort of questions I ask on exams and discuss how to study and write the exam. But, I give essay exams and I'm not trying to fool anyone.
Are any of you required by admin to respond to each grade-grubbing student email or to meet with students who want to boost their semester grades after the semester ends? We get a lot of this in our neck-of-the-woods, and need to find a succinct response to management that justifies a distinction between substantial questions/comments on one hand, and extended begging from students who have shunned offers of previous assistance throughout a course on the other.
Quote from: Zeus Bird on May 01, 2023, 05:55:55 AM
Are any of you required by admin to respond to each grade-grubbing student email or to meet with students who want to boost their semester grades after the semester ends? We get a lot of this in our neck-of-the-woods, and need to find a succinct response to management that justifies a distinction between substantial questions/comments on one hand, and extended begging from students who have shunned offers of previous assistance throughout a course on the other.
I respond to students, even those with annoying requests. If it's just a "is there anything I can do to improve my grade" I just respond with some version of "no, the semester is over, grades are what they are, enjoyed having you in the class" and that takes care of it. If the student is trying to argue that their grade should be higher, I just explain why they got the grade they did. If they try to push back in another email, I usually try to cut off the discussion by saying that if they still have concerns I'd be happy to meet with them in January/June, and they can set up an appointment then. That almost always does the trick and they never actually follow up. Once or twice I've had students try to keep arguing over email and at that point I just ignore it. I've never had any pressure from admin on this stuff, but I would assume if you've done all that, you could just explain that you reviewed the complaint, determined that there were no grounds for a grade change, responded to the student and while you don't mind meeting with them at a later point, you've found that giving students a cooling off period is useful.
Rough drafts were due March 30th. Final papers are due today.
A student emailed a rough draft on Friday afternoon, and emailed this, at 7am today.
"You did put up the link for the submission of the final paper to be due by today, I wasn't sure if I could get my reviewed paper back for the final submission. Since I haven't gotten feedback, do I get an extension on the due date? Please let me know."
Quote from: FishProf on May 01, 2023, 07:59:02 AM
Rough drafts were due March 30th. Final papers are due today.
A student emailed a rough draft on Friday afternoon, and emailed this, at 7am today.
"You did put up the link for the submission of the final paper to be due by today, I wasn't sure if I could get my reviewed paper back for the final submission. Since I haven't gotten feedback, do I get an extension on the due date? Please let me know."
"The feedback you received during the first week of April was all that will be forthcoming."
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 01, 2023, 08:33:20 AM
Quote from: FishProf on May 01, 2023, 07:59:02 AM
Rough drafts were due March 30th. Final papers are due today.
A student emailed a rough draft on Friday afternoon, and emailed this, at 7am today.
"You did put up the link for the submission of the final paper to be due by today, I wasn't sure if I could get my reviewed paper back for the final submission. Since I haven't gotten feedback, do I get an extension on the due date? Please let me know."
"The feedback you received during the first week of April was all that will be forthcoming."
Or, depending on your setup, "only rough drafts received by the due date of March 30th were eligible for feedback"
Quote from: Zeus Bird on May 01, 2023, 05:55:55 AM
Are any of you required by admin to respond to each grade-grubbing student email or to meet with students who want to boost their semester grades after the semester ends? We get a lot of this in our neck-of-the-woods, and need to find a succinct response to management that justifies a distinction between substantial questions/comments on one hand, and extended begging from students who have shunned offers of previous assistance throughout a course on the other.
I don't think there's any official requirement but I usually reply to grubbers with something similar to, "The grade submitted to the registrar, which is the same as the final grade posted in Canvas, is the grade you earned. Please refer to the syllabus for more information on how grades are calculated." If the grubber starts to mention a grade appeal, I make sure to get all the documentation in order then, even if they don't go through with it.
If the student has an actual, relevant question on a final project or final exam I may suggest that they refer to the rubric(s) that explain their grades (they often just look at the number, don't read the feedback) or give general info on what portions of the final exam did not go well for them. If it gets into multiple emails, I tell them they can make an appointment to meet with me when I get back to campus. They rarely do.
This just in (for the non-Canadians in the room, a B is 70-79, and an A is 80-100):
Good morning Dr. history_grrrl,
I hope all is well, my name is [Student] I was in your [Course] class this winter semester. I am reaching out as I have received all my final grades over this past week and have come up just short of my 80 percent average mark in hopes to get my entry scholarship again. I have worked hard this year and have ended right at a 79 just on the edge but I am hoping that there is a chance for a possible mark raise with the hope that a couple percent difference could push me into that scholarship range. If there is way in which you could help even with some last-minute work, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for an awesome end of the year and semester!
Well, I figured this meant he got a 79 in my class, but in fact he got a 70 (69.83 bumped up). So apparently he's desperately contacting profs for any class without a stellar performance so he can inch up his course average.
The whole thing is so weird that I decided to express my puzzlement instead of just saying no. My reply:
Thanks for your message, and I'm glad you enjoyed the course.
But I'm a little confused. Your final grade in [Course] was slightly below a 70, so we bumped you up to 70. What would be the basis for further adjusting your grade upward? Do you have concerns about how some component of your coursework was evaluated?
If I'm lucky, he won't bother to reply.
This one is a doozy.
"Hi Professor. I don't wanna make excuses for why I have not completed any of the course material. Is there any way you would consider re-opening the assignments for any amount of time? Again I don't wanna make excuses for my lack of action, but I work full time and have been battling illnesses the entire semester as I work with kids under 5 on the spectrum. I don't wanna fail this course and lose my scholarship. Let me know if there is anything I can do."
This is an online class, asynchronous, with 78 distinct items to be completed. All the wok is available on day one, and due on the last day of the semester (which was the day BEFORE this email arrived). The student attempted TWO items (and failed both).
Quote from: history_grrrl on May 01, 2023, 10:14:37 AM
This just in (for the non-Canadians in the room, a B is 70-79, and an A is 80-100):
Good morning Dr. history_grrrl,
I hope all is well, my name is [Student] I was in your [Course] class this winter semester. I am reaching out as I have received all my final grades over this past week and have come up just short of my 80 percent average mark in hopes to get my entry scholarship again. I have worked hard this year and have ended right at a 79 just on the edge but I am hoping that there is a chance for a possible mark raise with the hope that a couple percent difference could push me into that scholarship range. If there is way in which you could help even with some last-minute work, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for an awesome end of the year and semester!
Well, I figured this meant he got a 79 in my class, but in fact he got a 70 (69.83 bumped up). So apparently he's desperately contacting profs for any class without a stellar performance so he can inch up his course average.
The whole thing is so weird that I decided to express my puzzlement instead of just saying no. My reply:
Thanks for your message, and I'm glad you enjoyed the course.
But I'm a little confused. Your final grade in [Course] was slightly below a 70, so we bumped you up to 70. What would be the basis for further adjusting your grade upward? Do you have concerns about how some component of your coursework was evaluated?
If I'm lucky, he won't bother to reply.
Did the student made this bad of a mistake about the grade, or was it a case of brazenly trying to fool you into upping the grade by 10%?
Quote from: FishProf on May 03, 2023, 06:12:54 AM
This one is a doozy.
"Hi Professor. I don't wanna make excuses for why I have not completed any of the course material. Is there any way you would consider re-opening the assignments for any amount of time? Again I don't wanna make excuses for my lack of action, but I work full time and have been battling illnesses the entire semester as I work with kids under 5 on the spectrum. I don't wanna fail this course and lose my scholarship. Let me know if there is anything I can do."
This is an online class, asynchronous, with 78 distinct items to be completed. All the wok is available on day one, and due on the last day of the semester (which was the day BEFORE this email arrived). The student attempted TWO items (and failed both).
Wow. Kick that one to their advisor.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 03, 2023, 07:14:39 AM
Quote from: FishProf on May 03, 2023, 06:12:54 AM
This one is a doozy.
"Hi Professor. I don't wanna make excuses for why I have not completed any of the course material. Is there any way you would consider re-opening the assignments for any amount of time? Again I don't wanna make excuses for my lack of action, but I work full time and have been battling illnesses the entire semester as I work with kids under 5 on the spectrum. I don't wanna fail this course and lose my scholarship. Let me know if there is anything I can do."
This is an online class, asynchronous, with 78 distinct items to be completed. All the work is available on day one, and due on the last day of the semester (which was the day BEFORE this email arrived). The student attempted TWO items (and failed both).
Wow. Kick that one to their advisor.
I have been wondering if I should do that. Thanks for the encouragement.
Quote from: apl68 on May 03, 2023, 06:58:23 AM
Quote from: history_grrrl on May 01, 2023, 10:14:37 AM
This just in (for the non-Canadians in the room, a B is 70-79, and an A is 80-100):
Good morning Dr. history_grrrl,
I hope all is well, my name is [Student] I was in your [Course] class this winter semester. I am reaching out as I have received all my final grades over this past week and have come up just short of my 80 percent average mark in hopes to get my entry scholarship again. I have worked hard this year and have ended right at a 79 just on the edge but I am hoping that there is a chance for a possible mark raise with the hope that a couple percent difference could push me into that scholarship range. If there is way in which you could help even with some last-minute work, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for an awesome end of the year and semester!
Well, I figured this meant he got a 79 in my class, but in fact he got a 70 (69.83 bumped up). So apparently he's desperately contacting profs for any class without a stellar performance so he can inch up his course average.
The whole thing is so weird that I decided to express my puzzlement instead of just saying no. My reply:
Thanks for your message, and I'm glad you enjoyed the course.
But I'm a little confused. Your final grade in [Course] was slightly below a 70, so we bumped you up to 70. What would be the basis for further adjusting your grade upward? Do you have concerns about how some component of your coursework was evaluated?
If I'm lucky, he won't bother to reply.
Did the student made this bad of a mistake about the grade, or was it a case of brazenly trying to fool you into upping the grade by 10%?
His reply made clearer that he wants an 80 average (averaging all his course grades for the term). He probably figured he could achieve that by getting each prof to raise their grade by a point or two. His reply was rather sheepish, to his credit. But honestly, this whole claim could be made up.
Kick to the advisor/ ombuds/ Dean of students. I'm always thrilled when I can do that, because it makes you look caring, but it's also no longer my problem!
Hey Dr. Mode,
I am writing to you regarding the grade that I received on the final project. I am disappointed to have received a failing grade. I understand that I made a mistake by forgetting to include (some of the required parts), but I believe that this does not reflect the effort that I put into the project. I spent a lot of time researching, planning, and creating my project. I take full responsibility for the mistake I made.
Therefore, I respectfully request that you consider allowing me to resubmit my final project with the necessary additions. I believe that this will give me the opportunity to pass the course and avoid my future punishment which would be my financial aid being stripped from me and me most likely having to take semesters off because I can't afford the tuition. I am willing to work with you to ensure that the resubmission can be submitted minutes after your reply. I hope that we can work together to find a resolution that is fair and honest.
Sincerely,
Stu
Maybe I should have put this in the despair thread. But, here's the thing, Stu's work was not only incomplete, it was late, and he skipped the last two labs of the semester so I have no idea whether he even attempted the missing parts or not because he wasn't in the lab for me to see what he had finished. And by skipping he missed my constant reminders to double and triple-check their files before they upload, to back up their backup copies, to go through the rubric and make sure they have attempted everything on there. Stu gets less than zero sympathy from me, and attempting to pull my heartstrings with the, "I'm losing financial aid because of you," story never works. I'm still crafting my reply email but it will be along the lines of, "the grade you received was the grade you earned. Final grades have been turned in and you cannot resubmit your work for grading." I want to ask how 'fair and honest' it would be to allow him a chance to resubmit work when no one else is given that opportunity.
Time for the classic "[Basketweaving 101] has ended. Your course grade has been reported to the Registrar."
I know it feels so tempting to say "You are asking for something that is not fair or honest", but it's not worth replying to the particulars. Don't let the student think that they can continue to negotiate. If they email again, just send the same "Your course grade has been reported" reply.
I think the current cohort of students are shocked to learn that not all deadlines are flexible, standards for what counts as passing are not negotiable, and that you can't "revise and resubmit" once the class is over.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 04, 2023, 03:47:47 PM
Time for the classic "[Basketweaving 101] has ended. Your course grade has been reported to the Registrar."
I know it feels so tempting to say "You are asking for something that is not fair or honest", but it's not worth replying to the particulars. Don't let the student think that they can continue to negotiate. If they email again, just send the same "Your course grade has been reported" reply.
I think the current cohort of students are shocked to learn that not all deadlines are flexible, standards for what counts as passing are not negotiable, and that you can't "revise and resubmit" once the class is over.
I kept it simple and said his grade was correct and had been submitted to the registrar. I try not to make it seem like negotiation is possible in cases like these. Time will tell if he replies with continued attempts to negotiate, or submits a grade appeal. Thankfully, I've only ever had two students start an appeal, and they were both stopped at the dept chair level, with different chairs. My classes and grading are really straightforward. As one of the chairs told me, nothing in your class should ever be a surprise to a student unless they're just not paying attention.
I do entertain fantasies though of asking students like this one to tell me why they are oh so extra special that they should get something no one else does, or else say that flexibility is for athletes and elastomers, not deadlines and grades.
Quote from: EdnaMode on May 04, 2023, 05:08:50 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 04, 2023, 03:47:47 PM
I do entertain fantasies though of asking students like this one to tell me why they are oh so extra special that they should get something no one else does, or else say that flexibility is for athletes and elastomers, not deadlines and grades.
I'm quite flexible on deadlines during the semester, at least with the high stakes assignments. But once the semester ends, the semester ends. The only time I've changed grades is if a student had some legitimate emergency at the end of the semester and was actually unable to contact me because of illness, or was understandably too focused on whatever bad thing happened to contact me.
Student doesn't do one of the assignments, worth 10%.
Now the course is over, student emails asking how could they have got a C grade when they did fine on most assignments and only missed one.
That is the power of giving a 0 for work that you don't do! Math is so cruel!
One of the faculty in my department got an irate email from a student, who then looped me in as dean to share the angst. The student was appalled because she didn't get an A, thus ruining her 4.0 and any chances of a scholarship. The professor and Registrar then weighed in to point out that the student's final grade was entered as an A in the first place. Unnecessary drama all around!
Quote from: EdnaMode on May 04, 2023, 01:57:48 PM
attempting to pull my heartstrings with the, "I'm losing financial aid because of you," story never works.
In over 15 years of advising, I've yet to see a case where a student is losing financial aid due to one class and not to a broader pattern of student behavior and performance.
Quote from: Istiblennius on May 09, 2023, 12:17:02 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on May 04, 2023, 01:57:48 PM
attempting to pull my heartstrings with the, "I'm losing financial aid because of you," story never works.
In over 15 years of advising, I've yet to see a case where a student is losing financial aid due to one class and not to a broader pattern of student behavior and performance.
Right. One straw won't break the camel's back if the camel isn't already cruelly overloaded.
Student writes saying they didn't submit work all through the semester because of technical problems. Sounds like total bullshit to me.
i write back a curt reply explaining why I still won't accept their work at this stage. I add the magic phrase "This is my final word on the topic."
Student has not replied. I wonder whether it really worked.
Quote from: downer on May 10, 2023, 06:54:27 AM
i write back a curt reply explaining why I still won't accept their work at this stage. I add the magic phrase "This is my final word on the topic."
I Have Spoken. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru085EpNf2I)
Quote from: FishProf on May 10, 2023, 06:58:30 AM
Quote from: downer on May 10, 2023, 06:54:27 AM
i write back a curt reply explaining why I still won't accept their work at this stage. I add the magic phrase "This is my final word on the topic."
I Have Spoken. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru085EpNf2I)
Hah! This T shirt (https://www.ebay.com/itm/256064981472) is looking very attractive right now.
Quote from: downer on May 09, 2023, 08:43:15 AM
Student doesn't do one of the assignments, worth 10%.
Now the course is over, student emails asking how could they have got a C grade when they did fine on most assignments and only missed one.
That is the power of giving a 0 for work that you don't do! Math is so cruel!
Student writes back saying they still don't understand the grade. So far I have not been able to bring myself to reply. Wasn't there that line on the old fora, "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you."
Dear Student,
Thank you for your email. Seriously. Because now I have written evidence that you are a lying liar who lies.
Dr. Year
Quote from: downer on May 10, 2023, 10:32:58 AM
Quote from: downer on May 09, 2023, 08:43:15 AM
Student doesn't do one of the assignments, worth 10%.
Now the course is over, student emails asking how could they have got a C grade when they did fine on most assignments and only missed one.
That is the power of giving a 0 for work that you don't do! Math is so cruel!
Student writes back saying they still don't understand the grade. So far I have not been able to bring myself to reply. Wasn't there that line on the old fora, "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you."
I had a student a few semesters ago who couldn't understand why I had dropped a 100 they got for a quiz grade. I explained that I drop the two lowest quiz grades so the 100 gets dropped if there's nothing lower, but that, of course, this wasn't a problem and they had a 100 on the quizzes.
They just would not accept this explanation and were convinced this was somehow hurting their grade. I think I went through like 4 emails trying to explain this before they got their roommate to look at who convinced them that I was right...
Quote from: Caracal on May 11, 2023, 06:22:33 AM
Quote from: downer on May 10, 2023, 10:32:58 AM
Quote from: downer on May 09, 2023, 08:43:15 AM
Student doesn't do one of the assignments, worth 10%.
Now the course is over, student emails asking how could they have got a C grade when they did fine on most assignments and only missed one.
That is the power of giving a 0 for work that you don't do! Math is so cruel!
Student writes back saying they still don't understand the grade. So far I have not been able to bring myself to reply. Wasn't there that line on the old fora, "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you."
I had a student a few semesters ago who couldn't understand why I had dropped a 100 they got for a quiz grade. I explained that I drop the two lowest quiz grades so the 100 gets dropped if there's nothing lower, but that, of course, this wasn't a problem and they had a 100 on the quizzes.
They just would not accept this explanation and were convinced this was somehow hurting their grade. I think I went through like 4 emails trying to explain this before they got their roommate to look at who convinced them that I was right...
I admire your persistence. I give the explanation once.
I just received an email from a student who didn't turn in the final report. It was part excuse and part manifesto. The email was really long. The word count of the email is longer than the word count of most of the reports that were submitted by the other students. I think the email took more time and thought for the student, than what students normally put into their final reports, unless the excuse-manifesto was created by ChatGPT . . . .
Email just arrived from student who took a class with me last fall. He skipped the presentation and did none of the written work, so he failed the class with a 19/100. Grades were posted in December.
I hope you are doing well. I am sending this email to because I wanted to clarify my performance with the course. I fully intended to complete this course without any issues, but a lot of personal family issues arose and coupled with getting COVID and anxiety I was not able to perform the way I wanted to. I'm sorry I wasn't able to convey this sooner. I desperately need to pass this course. I immensely enjoyed the course and have all assignments fully completed. Could you please help me help so that I can obtain the credit for the course? Take care and look forward to hearing from you.
Well, it's a polite and well written message; I'll give him that. It's also about seven months too late.
I am the immediate supervisor of our part-time folks, the semester ended last Friday and I have now received five separate emails from students about how they either missed their final exam or final paper.
In each case the instructor posted multiple announcements in their blackboard shell about the deadline.
One student acknowledged that they missed the deadline but asked for an exception anyway. When that was not granted they asked that they be given "grace" and receive an additional 2 points to their course grade so they could earn a "B". Some part of me very slightly admires the audacity, I mean there is no way that is happening, but I was amused just a bit.
We allow for two different types of formal appeal, for a single grade in the course and for the course grade overall. One student went ahead and filed both appeals, their appeal was based mostly around how they have a learning disability that prevents them from reading dates correctly so they got confused. Of course they do not have anything on file with the office of accessibility, their excuse is that they had IEP in high school and they thought that automatically transferred over. Sigh.
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on May 17, 2023, 06:20:41 AM
I am the immediate supervisor of our part-time folks, the semester ended last Friday and I have now received five separate emails from students about how they either missed their final exam or final paper.
I rarely grant extensions outside emergency-type circumstances or accommodation. But I tend to hold the line pretty firmly on "if you can't meet a deadline, talk to me
before X is due." That includes students with accommodations that allow extensions; I want them to take at least that little bit of responsibility, even if it's an hour before the deadline. After class is over? Um, no.
Got this gem today from a student who has asked to come to my office to talk about why they did so poorly on their [basketweaving] exam. They have already failed to show up 2 times.
QuoteDear Professor [Geneticist]
Sorry that I didn't make it to your office hours today at 11:00. I just realized that I have a [pottery] exam during this time so that is the reason why I didn't come. Can I reschedule another time with you next Tuesday from 2-3 p.m. in the afternoon? Again I am very sorry about this and I apologize sincerely.
Thank you, Professor [Geneticist]
By [stu]
I think I know at least one reason why stu failed the [basketweaving] exam.
QuoteHi [stu],
I'll be here. One piece of advice I have for you is to go to class. Planning to skip [pottery] to come talk with me about [basketweaving] would put you behind in [pottery]. And you should write down the dates of all "big" assignments - quizzes, exams, presentations, etc. in a calendar or day planner as soon as you know when they will be.
Dr. [Geneticist]
I'm guessing they won't show up next Tuesday, but I'll be in my office at that time anyway. No way I'll spend an hour going over how to have better study habits, but I'll be here.
Do you have any least favorite ways that students close an email? I just received one from a student (absent from 75% of the summer session so far) asking for an extension on his homework (he hasn't submitted anything yet). His closing is "thanks regardless" and seems passive-aggressive given the content of his request. I'm also not fond of "TIA!" but that's probably just generational.
Quote from: RatGuy on June 05, 2023, 06:26:46 AM
Do you have any least favorite ways that students close an email? I just received one from a student (absent from 75% of the summer session so far) asking for an extension on his homework (he hasn't submitted anything yet). His closing is "thanks regardless" and seems passive-aggressive given the content of his request. I'm also not fond of "TIA!" but that's probably just generational.
"I'll be contacting the Chancellor/President/Department Chair/BOT about this!" (I
might have been known to cheerfully provide the necessary email address and/or link to the formal academic appeal form, once or twice or more. Ahem.)
The passive/aggressive and "TIA" closings aggravate me sometimes, too.
Quote from: AmLitHist on June 05, 2023, 06:55:32 AM
"I'll be contacting the Chancellor/President/Department Chair/BOT about this!" (I might have been known to cheerfully provide the necessary email address and/or link to the formal academic appeal form, once or twice or more. Ahem.)
On two occasions, I replied "No Need, I am CCing them on this reply". Calling their bluff did not go well for them.
Quote from: AmLitHist on June 05, 2023, 06:55:32 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on June 05, 2023, 06:26:46 AM
Do you have any least favorite ways that students close an email? I just received one from a student (absent from 75% of the summer session so far) asking for an extension on his homework (he hasn't submitted anything yet). His closing is "thanks regardless" and seems passive-aggressive given the content of his request. I'm also not fond of "TIA!" but that's probably just generational.
"I'll be contacting the Chancellor/President/Department Chair/BOT about this!" (I might have been known to cheerfully provide the necessary email address and/or link to the formal academic appeal form, once or twice or more. Ahem.)
The passive/aggressive and "TIA" closings aggravate me sometimes, too.
As far as I knew TIA meant transient ischemic attack--I had to look up on the web to find out what it meant as an abbreviated closing...
Quote from: bio-nonymous on June 05, 2023, 07:11:55 AM
As far as I knew TIA meant transient ischemic attack--I had to look up on the web to find out what it meant as an abbreviated closing...
I previously only knew it as a transient ischemic attack, but when I first saw it in an email signoff thought it meant, 'that is all' until someone told me it was 'thanks in advance.' Shows how much I know about all these new-fangled abbreviations. In my School, the Dean's assistant often writes things in an email subject line such as, 'the water will be turned back on in the building by 7 AM tomorrow EOM' and it took me a while to figure out that EOM meant 'end of message,' because there was no actual content in the body of the email.
Quote from: bio-nonymous on June 05, 2023, 07:11:55 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on June 05, 2023, 06:55:32 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on June 05, 2023, 06:26:46 AM
Do you have any least favorite ways that students close an email? I just received one from a student (absent from 75% of the summer session so far) asking for an extension on his homework (he hasn't submitted anything yet). His closing is "thanks regardless" and seems passive-aggressive given the content of his request. I'm also not fond of "TIA!" but that's probably just generational.
"I'll be contacting the Chancellor/President/Department Chair/BOT about this!" (I might have been known to cheerfully provide the necessary email address and/or link to the formal academic appeal form, once or twice or more. Ahem.)
The passive/aggressive and "TIA" closings aggravate me sometimes, too.
As far as I knew TIA meant transient ischemic attack--I had to look up on the web to find out what it meant as an abbreviated closing...
I'd never heard of either of them. I correctly guessed that in the e-mail context it meant "thanks in advance." I can see how that might come across annoying and presumptuous. It probably is indeed a generational thing.
Now I know what a transient ischemic attack is. You can learn all sorts of things at The Fora!
Quote from: RatGuy on June 05, 2023, 06:26:46 AM
Do you have any least favorite ways that students close an email? I just received one from a student (absent from 75% of the summer session so far) asking for an extension on his homework (he hasn't submitted anything yet). His closing is "thanks regardless" and seems passive-aggressive given the content of his request. I'm also not fond of "TIA!" but that's probably just generational.
Interesting. I would have read this differently.
"Thanks regardless" sounds to me like "thanks either way (i.e. even if you say no)." More "thanks for your time" rather than "thanks in advance." Like what someone might say when they know their request is a long shot and they aren't really expecting a yes?
No, what is actually 'all' dear sprite, is 'no'.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 05, 2023, 08:13:57 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on June 05, 2023, 06:26:46 AM
Do you have any least favorite ways that students close an email? I just received one from a student (absent from 75% of the summer session so far) asking for an extension on his homework (he hasn't submitted anything yet). His closing is "thanks regardless" and seems passive-aggressive given the content of his request. I'm also not fond of "TIA!" but that's probably just generational.
Interesting. I would have read this differently.
"Thanks regardless" sounds to me like "thanks either way (i.e. even if you say no)." More "thanks for your time" rather than "thanks in advance." Like what someone might say when they know their request is a long shot and they aren't really expecting a yes?
Yeah me too. I probably wouldn't phrase it that way, but I've definitely written emails where I'm trying to communicate to someone that I get that I might be requesting something that isn't feasible and if that's the case I'm not going to be grumpy about it. Of course, the trick is that you need to be requesting something that might not be possible, but isn't absurd or ridiculous.
Today's guilt trip email about a small, creative assignment due this morning that was assigned the 1st day of class (4.5 weeks ago)
Dr. Year,
I wanted to let you know that I have just submitted [assignment] after staying up all night to work on it. I don't feel so great because I haven't been to sleep yet, but I am still going to try to make it to class [this afternoon]. But, if I can't, I'll let you know. Thank you for your understanding.
That's a student who has a lot to learn about planning and using their time well.
Aka
The "due date isn't the date you do the work".
Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 09, 2023, 08:15:21 AM
Today's guilt trip email about a small, creative assignment due this morning that was assigned the 1st day of class (4.5 weeks ago)
Dr. Year,
I wanted to let you know that I have just submitted [assignment] after staying up all night to work on it. I don't feel so great because I haven't been to sleep yet, but I am still going to try to make it to class [this afternoon]. But, if I can't, I'll let you know. Thank you for your understanding.
Fantasy reply:
"You're welcome! It's easy to understand that you clearly don't have a clue how any of this works. Wait, that wasn't what you meant?"
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 09, 2023, 08:23:39 AM
That's a student who has a lot to learn about planning and using their time well.
Aka
The "due date isn't the date you do the work".
Maybe a teachable moment?
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 09, 2023, 08:23:39 AM
That's a student who has a lot to learn about planning and using their time well.
Aka
The "due date isn't the date you do the work".
Meh, I wrote a lot of papers in the middle of the night in college. Not the best strategy, but it wasn't a disaster. I got a lot of A-s on papers, which looking back is what happens when you actually spend some time on research, have a worthwhile argument and some interesting ideas and don't give yourself any time to revise your work.
It was sort of unpleasant but I was 20, and would feel fine after a nap. I also knew that it was my fault, I wasn't going to whine about how tired I was to my professor...
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 09, 2023, 08:23:39 AM
That's a student who has a lot to learn about planning and using their time well.
Aka
The "due date isn't the date you do the work".
"Due Date =/= DO date" is in my syllabus for exactly this scenario.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 09, 2023, 08:15:21 AM
Today's guilt trip email about a small, creative assignment due this morning that was assigned the 1st day of class (4.5 weeks ago)
Dr. Year,
I wanted to let you know that I have just submitted [assignment] after staying up all night to work on it. I don't feel so great because I haven't been to sleep yet, but I am still going to try to make it to class [this afternoon]. But, if I can't, I'll let you know. Thank you for your understanding.
To absolutely no one's surprise, student did not attend class in-person. I was somewhat surprised, however, that the student did not attend class online (although my class is scheduled in-person, I'm strongly encouraged to allow virtual attendance, and I'm gearing up to spend my very limited capital insisting that I not be forced to continue to hyflex a lab class next year). Like Caracal, I wrote a lot of papers the night before they were due during college; unlike Caracal, I can't say I got a lot of A-'s on them, but I did well enough to graduate with a degree in English (one of my double majors, not my current field). I've always been a procrastinator (I used to do my homework on the bus on the way to school in middle school), but it would never have occurred to me to admit to my poor planning to a professor as an excuse.
Quote from: FishProf on June 09, 2023, 01:53:57 PM
"Due Date =/= DO date" is in my syllabus for exactly this scenario.
Love this- might need to add it!
I could probably also use that reminder for myself sometimes, to be honest.
Quote from: KiUlv on June 10, 2023, 03:54:55 PM
Quote from: FishProf on June 09, 2023, 01:53:57 PM
"Due Date =/= DO date" is in my syllabus for exactly this scenario.
Love this- might need to add it!
I could probably also use that reminder for myself sometimes, to be honest.
Please do. Spread the gospel of 'failing to plan = planning to fail'.
Ah, it's the time of year when grades are due & the "is there anything else/extra credit/more assignments" emails are arriving.
Amazing how many folks beg for more work when they didn't finish all of the work during the quarter.
It is HARD to fail my classes, but when you fail ALL of the summative assignments that badly there just aren't enough formative assignment points to prop you up into passing.
I'm not talking about someone who earned 69.9% on the exams (those folks are passing the class), more like 35%.
Looks like I'll be seeing stu again in Summer or Fall.
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 13, 2023, 02:09:47 PMAh, it's the time of year when grades are due & the "is there anything else/extra credit/more assignments" emails are arriving.
Amazing how many folks beg for more work when they didn't finish all of the work during the quarter.
It is HARD to fail my classes, but when you fail ALL of the summative assignments that badly there just aren't enough formative assignment points to prop you up into passing.
That's what I say about labs. If you
show up and
do the work and
hand stuff in, it's virtually impossible to fail the lab portion of a course. In almost 40 years of doing this, no-one who handed everything in has failed. Some make a heroic effort and achieve a bare pass, but that's it.
Grades are submitted!
I posted an announcement to my class:
Quote[Basketweaving] grades have been submitted to the Registrar. The letter grade you see in the grade book on [LMS] is your course grade.
Grades will not be "rounded, bumped, adjusted" or otherwise changed. There are no additional assignments, no extra credit, and no regrading previous assignments. Any questions about grades will get a copy of this message.
I'm guessing I'll still get at least 4 'can you please change my grade?' emails.
I got just 3! I'll call that a success.
But now I'm getting the 'I just noticed my assignment from [weeks/months ago] grade is a 0, but I swear I did it' emails from my nonmajors class.
They all had the same, terrible TA - routinely late & unprepared, let students leave the labs a mess, late entering grades, etc.
But why didn't you say something weeks ago? Oh, that's right, your TA was so behind you had no reason to worry.
Ugh. I have to see if this changes anyone's course grade.
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 21, 2023, 07:35:07 AMI got just 3! I'll call that a success.
But now I'm getting the 'I just noticed my assignment from [weeks/months ago] grade is a 0, but I swear I did it' emails from my nonmajors class.
They all had the same, terrible TA - routinely late & unprepared, let students leave the labs a mess, late entering grades, etc.
But why didn't you say something weeks ago? Oh, that's right, your TA was so behind you had no reason to worry.
Ugh. I have to see if this changes anyone's course grade.
This is one of the reasons I prefer to have everything submitted via the LMS. Even good TAs have a bad day, so a lost paper is a possibility for anyone. With LMS submission, I no longer have to worry about whether an assignment was lost by the TA, or if the student is lying now, in hopes of improving their grade after-the-fact.
Quote from: arcturus on June 21, 2023, 08:35:05 AMQuote from: the_geneticist on June 21, 2023, 07:35:07 AMI got just 3! I'll call that a success.
But now I'm getting the 'I just noticed my assignment from [weeks/months ago] grade is a 0, but I swear I did it' emails from my nonmajors class.
They all had the same, terrible TA - routinely late & unprepared, let students leave the labs a mess, late entering grades, etc.
But why didn't you say something weeks ago? Oh, that's right, your TA was so behind you had no reason to worry.
Ugh. I have to see if this changes anyone's course grade.
This is one of the reasons I prefer to have everything submitted via the LMS. Even good TAs have a bad day, so a lost paper is a possibility for anyone. With LMS submission, I no longer have to worry about whether an assignment was lost by the TA, or if the student is lying now, in hopes of improving their grade after-the-fact.
The student sent a .pdf of their completed assignment. The TA didn't bother to actually GRADE the assignment (no points, no comments, but did put their initials on it - why?)
Technically, I could say "too late, it's now a zero" since the syllabus does say that the students have 1 week to ask about incorrect/missing grades. But that feels really unfair to the students since that particular TA NEVER finished their grading on time.
I just wish the student had noticed this BEFORE course grades were submitted to the Registrar.
If you're going to send me an email requesting that I overrride the course cap so you can enroll in my incredible popular humanities course, then the least you could do is spell my name correctly. The answer would still be "no," but then I wouldn't be posting in the "favorite student emails" thread.
I have a student who is sending me multiple one line emails. I'll get 3-4 within a ten minute span, all about the same topic. It's like Stu is not gathering their thoughts before firing off the email. Stu, this is not a text chain, pause, think, write, then hit send. Also, the fact that you can't seem to write more than one cogent sentence at a time or place thoughts together might account for your poor grade in this course.
Quote from: artalot on July 25, 2023, 11:21:53 AMI have a student who is sending me multiple one line emails. I'll get 3-4 within a ten minute span, all about the same topic. It's like Stu is not gathering their thoughts before firing off the email. Stu, this is not a text chain, pause, think, write, then hit send. Also, the fact that you can't seem to write more than one cogent sentence at a time or place thoughts together might account for your poor grade in this course.
With that kind of student, I wait 24 hours before replying, and then give one overall reply.
Students,
When your instructors ask for a "medical note", they just need something with your name, the date, and when you can return to class. Everything else is private & you do NOT need to share it.
That includes the "reason for visit".
Please do not email your instructors images of your lacerated finger/smashed ankle/infected eyes!
I have a very large computer monitor. I don't need a close-up shot.
Just the note.
We are in the midst of a reply all fiasco-- haven't had one of those for awhile, but someone evidently forgot to lock down an email list, and now a student has emailed managers_group@university with their request to change their shift in the library tomorrow and it has gone to every single person with at least one direct report in the whole university, and now a bunch of those people are sending confused emails saying they don't know what the first email is about to the whole list. Make it stop!
QuoteHi Para,
When will you be posting the grades for Quiz 1? It took place on July 23.
Thanks,
Student
I've bolded the important bit. It is the 27th today.
Yes, so the 23d was four days ago. How long does it take you to correct a 'quiz', and how many students do you have in the class?
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 27, 2023, 04:52:28 PMQuoteHi Para,
When will you be posting the grades for Quiz 1? It took place on July 23.
Thanks,
Student
I've bolded the important bit. It is the 27th today.
Quiz was on a Sunday? I'm guessing Stu got the date wrong and/or didn't take the quiz and/or doesn't realize that 0 is their score
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 27, 2023, 08:48:27 PMYes, so the 23d was four days ago. How long does it take you to correct a 'quiz', and how many students do you have in the class?
Not long, but I do have to get to it. I have two classes of 40 at the moment, and the quiz consists of several multiple choice questions and a short answer (i.e. paragraph) question. As far as I'm concerned, a week is perfectly reasonable turnaround.
Quote from: the_geneticist on July 28, 2023, 07:25:33 AMQuiz was on a Sunday? I'm guessing Stu got the date wrong and/or didn't take the quiz and/or doesn't realize that 0 is their score
Oh no, that's right. The quiz has been available since the first day of class, but closed on Sunday night.
I think "When will you be posting the grades?" is a reasonable question. The answer: "I aim to have the grades posted within a week." Sometimes students did badly and worry about whether they should drop the class before they forfeit the tuition money. Sometimes they're just worried. And sometimes professors take a r-e-a-l-l-y long time to post grades, leading to anxiety among students generally. We had one prof who posted all the grades only at the end of the semester (which I think is egregious, but he argued that he was under too much stress, etc.), and another who took 2 months to post them, which I also think is egregious (but she had excuses/reasons too). But it's that kind of thing that makes students worried that the grades will not be posted in time for them to make further decisions.
I probably contribute to the problem as well, as all my quizzes are graded instantly by the LMS, so they're used to getting their grades as soon as they finish.
Ok, I do see your point... provided that quicker feedback on the quiz would not be necessary to allow the students to adequately hope to proceed in their learning for the course.
Class presentations are tomorrow. There is a rubric, videos of how to [analyze baskets], presentation guidelines, students have been building pieces of this all quarter, and we gave them most of class last week to work on this.
Got this gem late last night:
QuoteHi [first name]
I'm having trouble finding [information on my basket pattern]. I also had questions regarding whether this information would be useful to add to our presentation.
Fantasy reply:
Nah, it's totally optional. I just made the videos and included that portion as busy work! Go ahead and skip it for no penalty!
Hi Fishprof,
To my understanding the following assignments are due september 27, the ones with due date september, 20 are no longer available.
[Screenshot of Schedule of Topics from syllabus].
[Stu]
Is there a question here?
I may have finally hit rock-bottom - at least, I hope it never gets worse than this:
"I need to leave in about 5 minutes to go to my tutoring session."
That was the email in its entirety - it was sent about halfway through lecture! At least now I know why the student got up and walked out.
Suggestions for responses are welcome, b/c I'm struggling....
Perhaps leaving in the middle of class for a tutoring session is the reason you need a tutoring session.
Dear Dr. Buster,
Good evening, I'm trying to get home to do the peer reviews asap, however i'm stuck on [XXX Interstate Highway] without my laptop and i'm unable to do the editing on my phone. I've been sitting on the highway for over an hour and they have just shut the part of the highway that i'm on down. I have no idea how long i'll be stuck here, I just wanted to reach out to let you know i am trying to get home to do the peer reviews and I didn't want to be pentalized for it
Ummm. . . trying to your your homework on your phone in your car on the highway. NOT a good plan.
The highway was probably masquerading as a parking lot at the point Stu wrote their message, so defaulting from driving to schoolwork would not be an unreasonable option.
The student should take a deep breath and remember that whatever the problem is with the interstate highway, it's probably not on the same level as what Los Angeles is going through right now. Unless perhaps it actually IS in Los Angeles.
No, not I-10, although it does run through town here.
Dear stu,
Asking a professor if you can "skip their class" is not a way to make a good impression. No, I will not give you permission to attend another class at the same time as this one. Just because you thought of the idea doesn't mean it will happen.
This reminds me of a student from many years ago.
Student sent me an email at 9:50 am, asking if we could meet at 10:00 am. I was not in front of my computer at that time. When I got back to my office at 10:15, I saw the email and replied that I was available if they wanted to stop in. The student came to my office shortly after noon. He explained that he had an out of state event that weekend and had wanted to meet with me to find out what we were doing because he wanted to miss class and drive there early. Since I had not been available to meet with him at 10:00, and it was now so late in the day, he supposed he would just come to class (at 1:00). The ensuing silence and look on his face told me that I was supposed to apologize for inconveniencing him, but I couldn't bring myself to apologize for not being available at a drop of a hat or that he would be attending class.
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 28, 2023, 03:15:06 PMDear stu,
Asking a professor if you can "skip their class" is not a way to make a good impression. No, I will not give you permission to attend another class at the same time as this one. Just because you thought of the idea doesn't mean it will happen.
A good place for a lesson on the importance of "framing" to make what one says come across in the best possible way.
From a student with a 32% grade on the final week of class: "Hi sorry if I haven't been on track in your class. I am currently going through somethings that is currently affecting me. Ehh I know it shouldn't get in the way of my progress in class. I'll also do paper 5 and the presentation and about the getting deeper into research I use the internet I don't really know much about using the library. So yeah I deeply apologize for not communicating with you earlier."
I'm not expecting great things.
Quote from: sinenomine on December 07, 2023, 02:08:17 PMFrom a student with a 32% grade on the final week of class: "Hi sorry if I haven't been on track in your class. I am currently going through somethings that is currently affecting me. Ehh I know it shouldn't get in the way of my progress in class. I'll also do paper 5 and the presentation and about the getting deeper into research I use the internet I don't really know much about using the library. So yeah I deeply apologize for not communicating with you earlier."
I'm not expecting great things.
Please inform this student that there are people called "librarians" whose job is to help students learn "much about using the library". In my day (GenX), undergrads were not given access to librarians routinely; today, there is no excuse for not seeking help - there are online tutorials, class presentations by librarians, and many opportunities to make individual appts for research consultation.
Quote from: mbelvadi on December 08, 2023, 08:54:10 AMQuote from: sinenomine on December 07, 2023, 02:08:17 PMFrom a student with a 32% grade on the final week of class: "Hi sorry if I haven't been on track in your class. I am currently going through somethings that is currently affecting me. Ehh I know it shouldn't get in the way of my progress in class. I'll also do paper 5 and the presentation and about the getting deeper into research I use the internet I don't really know much about using the library. So yeah I deeply apologize for not communicating with you earlier."
I'm not expecting great things.
Please inform this student that there are people called "librarians" whose job is to help students learn "much about using the library". In my day (GenX), undergrads were not given access to librarians routinely; today, there is no excuse for not seeking help - there are online tutorials, class presentations by librarians, and many opportunities to make individual appts for research consultation.
Oh, I did that repeatedly. This is a case of leading a horse to water and seeing it not drink...
...and horses are typically smart enough not to drown. This one...?
My twist on that statement is leading a horse to water (to drink) and then watching it drown.
Last day of the semester. I had the following emails today:
Begging email for me not to fail the blatant case of plagiarism because they are supposed to graduate next week.
Request for feedback on the paper draft that was due 32 days ago.
Request for extra credit that starts with " I know you say in the syllabus no extra credit. But. . . ."
I need to game show voice over to tell me what I've won with all three in 1 day!
Students' papers were due yesterday. Yesterday evening — not having gotten far on the grading yet, for obvious reasons — I got an escalating flurry of emails. "There is no grade listed for my paper on the LMS! That means it will register as an F! I don't deserve an F! I did all the work! I am attaching all my assignments so you can see I did the work all term!" And so on and so on. I think maybe somebody had a little too much to drink or indulged a little too much in substances. Six emails later, despite my reassurances, they are still coming. "You are counting all my assignments, right?" Jeepers, kid, calm DOWN.
Ok, but is there some glitch in the LMS software that will automatically record an F until the professor changes it?
In our LMS, we can set it to count ungraded work as ZERO (running total) or not counted AT All. In that scenario, if only a letter grade is displayed, it will show an F for purposes of calculating final grades, but still just show a nothing for that assignment.
Hard to say which is in play here.
Quote from: FishProf on December 11, 2023, 06:51:23 AMIn our LMS, we can set it to count ungraded work as ZERO (running total) or not counted AT All. In that scenario, if only a letter grade is displayed, it will show an F for purposes of calculating final grades, but still just show a nothing for that assignment.
Hard to say which is in play here.
I like to use that option, so that a student's grade is always cumulative, so at any moment the grade shown is the
floor; i.e. if they never hand anything else in, that's the grade they'll get. It's great to be able to point out that
anything they do beyond this point can only
improve their grade.
I do the same from about the midpoint of the semester on. There is always a bit of panic when I change it over, particularly for the students who don't come to class or don't read announcements.
I consider that a feature, not a bug, btw.
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 10, 2023, 07:46:34 PMOk, but is there some glitch in the LMS software that will automatically record an F until the professor changes it?
No, it just looks like a blank in the gradebook (Canvas). If I left it blank, it would count as an F. But if they got an F for their paper, I wouldn't just leave the space blank. I'd enter an F. And even if an F had appeared, one querying email from the student would have been appropriate. Eight increasingly hysterical ones — on a Saturday night, even — is not appropriate.
Quote from: Hegemony on December 11, 2023, 08:56:51 AMEight increasingly hysterical ones — on a Saturday night, even — is not appropriate.
But, you're a professor! You don't have anything else to do but answer emails on a Saturday night! [/s]
Dear Stu-
There is such a thing as "over sharing". The semester has not yet started. I do not need to read a complete run-down of the tragedy that is about to befall one of your family members. I am glad they want you to "stay in school" even as they are lying on their death bed. But today, Christmas Eve, is not the day you should send email to the professors of the classes you are scheduled to take next term. There is nothing I can do for you at this time.
Prof of your asynchronous online course that does not start for a few weeks.
Quote from: FishProf on December 11, 2023, 09:13:46 AMQuote from: Hegemony on December 11, 2023, 08:56:51 AMEight increasingly hysterical ones — on a Saturday night, even — is not appropriate.
But, you're a professor! You don't have anything else to do but answer emails on a Saturday night! [/s]
That's true. Profs do lead notoriously dull lives. They're a lot like librarians in that respect.
Asynchronous online class. Online discussion. Student posts well formatted work that seems overly sophisticated for a gen ed class, using lots of technical phrases. I comment on this, and pick out one phrase, asking what it means. No direct accusation made.
Student emails me saying they didn't sign up to be insulted, and says they will withdraw from class.
I was a bit taken aback at first. But looked over my comment and didn't see anything insulting. It does express a rather sceptical attitude. But given the prevalence of AI use, my attidude is reasonable. I didn't reply since the student didn't ask a question.
So far, the student has not withdrawn.
Quote from: downer on January 04, 2024, 03:29:08 AMAsynchronous online class. Online discussion. Student posts well formatted work that seems overly sophisticated for a gen ed class, using lots of technical phrases. I comment on this, and pick out one phrase, asking what it means. No direct accusation made.
Student emails me saying they didn't sign up to be insulted, and says they will withdraw from class.
I was a bit taken aback at first. But looked over my comment and didn't see anything insulting. It does express a rather sceptical attitude. But given the prevalence of AI use, my attidude is reasonable. I didn't reply since the student didn't ask a question.
So far, the student has not withdrawn.
Did they get out of addressing your query?
Quote from: fishbrains on January 04, 2024, 04:25:57 AMQuote from: downer on January 04, 2024, 03:29:08 AMAsynchronous online class. Online discussion. Student posts well formatted work that seems overly sophisticated for a gen ed class, using lots of technical phrases. I comment on this, and pick out one phrase, asking what it means. No direct accusation made.
Student emails me saying they didn't sign up to be insulted, and says they will withdraw from class.
I was a bit taken aback at first. But looked over my comment and didn't see anything insulting. It does express a rather sceptical attitude. But given the prevalence of AI use, my attidude is reasonable. I didn't reply since the student didn't ask a question.
So far, the student has not withdrawn.
Did they get out of addressing your query?
They certainly didn't address it. The email expressing indignation was ungrammatical.
Reactions like that are a classic tool of liars and cheats. They throw up a wall of bluster to try to deflect the charges. Or at least try to make the one who calls them on what they're doing feel bad. In some cases the bluster may be an effort to silence their conscience and convince themselves that they're the aggrieved party.
Quote from: downer on January 04, 2024, 03:29:08 AMAsynchronous online class. Online discussion. Student posts well formatted work that seems overly sophisticated for a gen ed class, using lots of technical phrases. I comment on this, and pick out one phrase, asking what it means. No direct accusation made.
Student emails me saying they didn't sign up to be insulted, and says they will withdraw from class.
I was a bit taken aback at first. But looked over my comment and didn't see anything insulting. It does express a rather sceptical attitude. But given the prevalence of AI use, my attidude is reasonable. I didn't reply since the student didn't ask a question.
So far, the student has not withdrawn.
The Dude abides. Sorry, I couldn't resist.
apl is right-- stu is using 'deny, deny, accuse'. If he does not follow through with his threat to withdraw, what will you do?
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 05, 2024, 03:28:25 AMapl is right-- stu is using 'deny, deny, accuse'. If he does not follow through with his threat to withdraw, what will you do?
Student withdrew. If student had not withdrawn, I would have given them the grade they earned.
I love when students email with entitlement and attitude.
"According to the video at 18:10 states they have to leave the forest because they are too big and don't have room to move. This is not the first time I have come across questions with "unfair" or ambiguous answers or questions that don't pertain to a particular reading or video. I would love to give more examples, however due to the large volume of work that was released today I will not be available to do so unless I come across more in future quizzes."
Cool story bro.
First of all, The video states that they will "soon they will have to leave and join an adult herd", but the fire forces them out before then. Not ambiguous, you just didn't pay close enough attention.
2nd, if you have "unfair" or "ambiguous" questions, but don't tell me what they are, how do you expect me to fix them?
3rd - you signed up for the 15 day sprint class. There's a lot of stuff. What did you expect?
Quote from: FishProf on January 06, 2024, 05:49:45 PM3rd - you signed up for the 15 day sprint class. There's a lot of stuff. What did you expect?
Fifteen days of regular classes that would award the same credit as a whole semester course for a fraction of the work?
Quote from: apl68 on January 08, 2024, 07:50:35 AMQuote from: FishProf on January 06, 2024, 05:49:45 PM3rd - you signed up for the 15 day sprint class. There's a lot of stuff. What did you expect?
Fifteen days of regular classes that would award the same credit as a whole semester course for a fraction of the work?
I know this is what some of my students seem to think 8-week courses are; I make sure to explicitly say/write "It's all the work in half the time" several times in the first week to make sure it sinks in. I still get complaints it's too much work, whereupon I remind them what they signed up for.
True to form, the students (yes, plural) complaining about things not being posted yet are the same ones who haven't done a fraction of what has already been posted.
(Inside poker - the work is posted, they just can see it because they haven't done the prereq work yet).
Quote from: apl68 on January 08, 2024, 07:50:35 AMQuote from: FishProf on January 06, 2024, 05:49:45 PM3rd - you signed up for the 15 day sprint class. There's a lot of stuff. What did you expect?
Fifteen days of regular classes that would award the same credit as a whole semester course for a fraction of the work?
In my classes, the fraction is about 0.95
Quote from: downer on January 08, 2024, 10:07:44 AMQuote from: apl68 on January 08, 2024, 07:50:35 AMQuote from: FishProf on January 06, 2024, 05:49:45 PM3rd - you signed up for the 15 day sprint class. There's a lot of stuff. What did you expect?
Fifteen days of regular classes that would award the same credit as a whole semester course for a fraction of the work?
In my classes, the fraction is about 0.95
So that rounds to zero, right? Right?
Quote from: FishProf on January 08, 2024, 10:09:02 AMQuote from: downer on January 08, 2024, 10:07:44 AMQuote from: apl68 on January 08, 2024, 07:50:35 AMQuote from: FishProf on January 06, 2024, 05:49:45 PM3rd - you signed up for the 15 day sprint class. There's a lot of stuff. What did you expect?
Fifteen days of regular classes that would award the same credit as a whole semester course for a fraction of the work?
In my classes, the fraction is about 0.95
So that rounds to zero, right? Right?
I guess lots of students wished that. I started with 27 students. Looks like 15 of them will finish the class.
"Hello! I am going to be in your social biology course BI-111-EL and I was just wondering when the course will be available on blackboard and the assignments will be able to be seen? Thank you so much!
-Stu"
Well, let's see. The semester STARTS on Tuesday, so I was thinking I would make course materials available on...Tuesday.
Quote from: FishProf on January 13, 2024, 01:39:17 PM"Hello! I am going to be in your social biology course BI-111-EL and I was just wondering when the course will be available on blackboard and the assignments will be able to be seen? Thank you so much!
-Stu"
Well, let's see. The semester STARTS on Tuesday, so I was thinking I would make course materials available on...Tuesday.
I'll take some of the blame there. I had all my classes up on Thursday. Students are already submitting work even though classes don't start till Tuesday.
I was always one of those freaky students who wanted to get ahead of things; so now if my class is ready to go, I just go ahead and release it.
Not advocating for early release, just saying ...
Quote from: fishbrains on January 14, 2024, 08:57:12 AMI'll take some of the blame there. I had all my classes up on Thursday. Students are already submitting work even though classes don't start till Tuesday.
I've done that myself as well (this last inter-session semester, for example). My response/reaction is to the expectation that I
should have materials available before the semester starts.
Quote from: FishProf on January 14, 2024, 05:03:13 PMQuote from: fishbrains on January 14, 2024, 08:57:12 AMI'll take some of the blame there. I had all my classes up on Thursday. Students are already submitting work even though classes don't start till Tuesday.
I've done that myself as well (this last inter-session semester, for example). My response/reaction is to the expectation that I should have materials available before the semester starts.
Yeah, I'm wondering if opening classes early is kind of like sending emails on a Saturday. Maybe we don't want to set that kind of expectation.
I worry about the same thing. The only time I do it is before the super-short intersession. But it doesn't seem to matter. The students who need it won't use it and the ones who use it don't need it.
It's the temporal version of extra credit.
Quote from: fishbrains on January 15, 2024, 08:58:24 AMQuote from: FishProf on January 14, 2024, 05:03:13 PMQuote from: fishbrains on January 14, 2024, 08:57:12 AMI'll take some of the blame there. I had all my classes up on Thursday. Students are already submitting work even though classes don't start till Tuesday.
I've done that myself as well (this last inter-session semester, for example). My response/reaction is to the expectation that I should have materials available before the semester starts.
Yeah, I'm wondering if opening classes early is kind of like sending emails on a Saturday. Maybe we don't want to set that kind of expectation.
One of the things that I
don't like about having everything delivered through the LMS (as I do now) versus using my own website (as I did pre-Covid) is that now there's
nothing that students can see without being registered. So, if a student is interested in my course, I can't just point them to last year so they can take a look. Or, if I want to look at another person's course that is a prereq for mine, I can't.
I'd really like it if the LMS allowed "open" material which
anyone could see and "closed" material, obviously including quizzes and so on, which was only for people in the course. All-or-nothing isn't ideal.
Quote from: FishProf on January 15, 2024, 09:24:44 AMI worry about the same thing. The only time I do it is before the super-short intersession. But it doesn't seem to matter. The students who need it won't use it and the ones who use it don't need it.
It's the temporal version of extra credit.
I hope that opening the course early for a short course could scare some students away because they can see the workload early on. I think it does a bit. I also like when good students get started on online discussion work early since then I can give feedback and other students can see what good work looks like.
Considering my pay can be affected by scaring students away early, it is a bit of a dilemma.
Quote from: downer on January 15, 2024, 10:14:30 AMQuote from: FishProf on January 15, 2024, 09:24:44 AMI worry about the same thing. The only time I do it is before the super-short intersession. But it doesn't seem to matter. The students who need it won't use it and the ones who use it don't need it.
It's the temporal version of extra credit.
I hope that opening the course early for a short course could scare some students away because they can see the workload early on. I think it does a bit. I also like when good students get started on online discussion work early since then I can give feedback and other students can see what good work looks like.
That gets back to getting through to them the understanding that just because the course is short, it doesn't mean that it's less work. From what people have said here, a lot of them really don't seem to get that. A lot of students really seem to have the idea that an abbreviated course is a chance to get the same credit with a fraction of the work. Magical thinking in action, I guess.
QuoteI just wanted to check with you about the signup link for the individually assigned readings. Is it the one titled "Sign up for individually assigned reading here"? Just want to make sure I'm using the right one.
No matter how obvious you've made things. . .
Quote from: Puget on January 30, 2024, 02:52:35 PMQuoteI just wanted to check with you about the signup link for the individually assigned readings. Is it the one titled "Sign up for individually assigned reading here"? Just want to make sure I'm using the right one.
No matter how obvious you've made things. . .
Would a response such as "nope, I randomly puttee actual link someplace else just to screw with you" be wrong?
Quote from: fishbrains on January 14, 2024, 08:57:12 AMQuote from: FishProf on January 13, 2024, 01:39:17 PMWell, let's see. The semester STARTS on Tuesday, so I was thinking I would make course materials available on...Tuesday.
I'll take some of the blame there. I had all my classes up on Thursday. Students are already submitting work even though classes don't start till Tuesday.
I was always one of those freaky students who wanted to get ahead of things; so now if my class is ready to go, I just go ahead and release it.
Not advocating for early release, just saying ...
One of my students told me that she got sick over winter break and couldn't take the trip she had planned, so she went ahead and completed all of the work for her upcoming asynchronous class. She is waiting to submit most of the assignments because she didn't want the instructor to think she is odd.
Quote from: Biologist_ on January 30, 2024, 03:55:58 PMQuote from: fishbrains on January 14, 2024, 08:57:12 AMQuote from: FishProf on January 13, 2024, 01:39:17 PMWell, let's see. The semester STARTS on Tuesday, so I was thinking I would make course materials available on...Tuesday.
I'll take some of the blame there. I had all my classes up on Thursday. Students are already submitting work even though classes don't start till Tuesday.
I was always one of those freaky students who wanted to get ahead of things; so now if my class is ready to go, I just go ahead and release it.
Not advocating for early release, just saying ...
One of my students told me that she got sick over winter break and couldn't take the trip she had planned, so she went ahead and completed all of the work for her upcoming asynchronous class. She is waiting to submit most of the assignments because she didn't want the instructor to think she is odd.
I had a student finish all the classwork in the first few weeks. At a certain point, he already had an A in the class, but he kept coming and even took the final exam because he liked hanging out with everyone.
From a student asking about how to do an assignment:
"...An example of the completed assignment would also help a ton."
Yes, I am sure it would. However, if I completed the assignment for you, then you would not have the opportunity to learn for yourself.
Quote from: arcturus on January 31, 2024, 04:26:55 PMFrom a student asking about how to do an assignment:
"...An example of the completed assignment would also help a ton."
Yes, I am sure it would. However, if I completed the assignment for you, then you would not have the opportunity to learn for yourself.
I assign a project, where students choose a project
from a list. There are 3 sample projects,
not from the list, which are complete and so they can look at them to see what is expected. As can be expected, a few students "choose" to do one of the sample projects.
I feel your pain.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 01, 2024, 05:20:11 AMQuote from: arcturus on January 31, 2024, 04:26:55 PMFrom a student asking about how to do an assignment:
"...An example of the completed assignment would also help a ton."
Yes, I am sure it would. However, if I completed the assignment for you, then you would not have the opportunity to learn for yourself.
I assign a project, where students choose a project from a list. There are 3 sample projects, not from the list, which are complete and so they can look at them to see what is expected. As can be expected, a few students "choose" to do one of the sample projects.
I feel your pain.
I stopped giving examples when students would just take the sample, change a few words and voila!
From the other side of the desk, I remember how frustrating it was to be working on a dissertation, keep having drafts rejected as needing more work, and being told, when I asked for more feedback, "I decline to write it for you." To this day I can't decide whether my dissertation advisor didn't do well by me, or whether I really just wasn't good enough to understand what was needed. Probably the latter.
Hmm... you have said this before, and I contend that she should have told you in what areas more work was needed, what your current drafts were lacking, etc. She could have done all of that without 'writing it for you'. It is more or less the same argument that a student legitimately has when paper #1 is not graded and returned before paper #2 is due, allowing student in his ignorance to repeat the writing errors made in the first paper, on the second.
My online class has a test due tonight and I just got this gem from a student which goes something like this:
"Prof: My computer was glitching and I couldn't finish the test. Can you just email it to me and I'll send it back? My other professors did this."
Um. That's a negatory.
Stu emails me today, 5 weeks into the semester, begging to add my class because she misunderstood the major requirements and now can't graduate this spring without it. She has all sorts of ideas about how she can make up for missing 1/3 of the semester of a discussion based advanced seminar class, all of which would involve mountains of extra work for *me*. No way buttercup, your lack of planning is not my emergency.
Ok, I see your point and would not let her in either, but why is it that the major advisors in your dept allowed a senior to come to be in this position in the first place, and which admin gets to deal with the complaints from her parents?
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 13, 2024, 03:42:31 PMOk, I see your point and would not let her in either, but why is it that the major advisors in your dept allowed a senior to come to be in this position in the first place, and which admin gets to deal with the complaints from her parents?
They have staff advisors, and I recommended she meet with them, but ultimately it is the student's responsibility-- they can easily pull up their own requirement progress tracker and see what courses they are missing. They are supposed to do so before registering each semester. Sometimes adulting failures have consequences. . .
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 13, 2024, 03:42:31 PMOk, I see your point and would not let her in either, but why is it that the major advisors in your dept allowed a senior to come to be in this position in the first place, and which admin gets to deal with the complaints from her parents?
Strange assumption here. If students don't come for advising, that's on them.
Gee, I dunno. Even when I was a PhD candidate in the 90s, without one single professor designated as my 'advisor', it was pretty much SOP to have people like the head of grad studies meet with grad students to see how they were progressing and meeting reqs. And grad students, ahem, actually ARE adults. I certainly know that when I was a student at Dear Alma Mater uberelite SLAC in the 80s, it was unambiguously the case that we had to meet with advisors and would not have been allowed to get into this position, which seems to be lazy on the part of the school, and serves little purpose-- how hard would it have been to have the girl told by someone in authority, say in October, that she would need to take this course this semester, in order to graduate this spring?
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 14, 2024, 11:13:54 AMGee, I dunno. Even when I was a PhD candidate in the 90s, without one single professor designated as my 'advisor', it was pretty much SOP to have people like the head of grad studies meet with grad students to see how they were progressing and meeting reqs. And grad students, ahem, actually ARE adults. I certainly know that when I was a student at Dear Alma Mater uberelite SLAC in the 80s, it was unambiguously the case that we had to meet with advisors and would not have been allowed to get into this position, which seems to be lazy on the part of the school, and serves little purpose-- how hard would it have been to have the girl told by someone in authority, say in October, that she would need to take this course this semester, in order to graduate this spring?
Note that the girl Puget was talking about is an undergraduate.
K16, just to give you some perspective. At my compass point U We currently have two staff advisors total for all the Biology, Chemistry, and Physics majors. Faculty are not part of the advising process. This ends up with each advisor having a "load" of approximately 3-400 students. It is not physically possible for them to meet with ALL the students immediately prior to registration. So they don't. Students can choose to meet with them, but it is not required.
That is how these things sometimes happen. But students also need to take responsibility for their own path. We have worksheets that lay out these type of requirements in a very simple checkbox format. Those that refuse to be in control of their degree progression will hopefully learn from that experience.
Quote from: mythbuster on February 14, 2024, 01:26:00 PMK16, just to give you some perspective. At my compass point U We currently have two staff advisors total for all the Biology, Chemistry, and Physics majors. Faculty are not part of the advising process. This ends up with each advisor having a "load" of approximately 3-400 students. It is not physically possible for them to meet with ALL the students immediately prior to registration. So they don't. Students can choose to meet with them, but it is not required.
That is how these things sometimes happen. But students also need to take responsibility for their own path. We have worksheets that lay out these type of requirements in a very simple checkbox format. Those that refuse to be in control of their degree progression will hopefully learn from that experience.
Correct, and here they don't even have to fill out a checklist themselves, they have it filled out automatically in Workday for them-- it shows them exactly which requirements they have met and what is left to meet. Plus, they all fill out a worksheet with planned courses when they declare a major, and can sign up for an advising appointment any time they want if they have questions. These are young adults that are about to launch into the real world where they will need to take personal responsibility for their lives, so I think it it's pretty reasonable to ask them to take responsibility for verifying they are on track to graduate using the easy tools at their disposal to do so. Forcing them to meet with an advisor before registering is a non-starter outside very small SLACs.
That sort of super-handholding is part of the appeal of SLACs. Not practical at many larger schools.
At FishProf U, students HAVE to meet with advisors in order to register during the pre-reg period. After that is over, the unwise can register for what is left, without guidance, if they so choose. Alas, the ones that do significantly overlap with those who shouldn't.
Yup, average advisor load at my flagship R1 is about 300 students. The only time students are required to meet with an advisor is to fill out an application to graduate. And our student progress system is not 100% accurate about whether students are on track to graduate. A non-zero number of students run into problems at that point, which is 3 weeks into what students fondly hope is their last semester.
I get that big unis do not operate like SLACs, but irrespective of the overworked professional 'advisors', what exactly is the responsibility of the actual professors here (slac biases showing here, of course)? Those of you who have followed me over the years know well that I do not believe that traditional-aged undergrads are adults, and of course, all the biological research over the last two generations, well, backs me up.
I do advising of students in our major at my R1. They get emails urging them to come in and see me regularly. A few come in every semester. Some come in or consult me by email about once a year. Most consult me in their senior year, to make sure they're on target to graduate. It helps that our advising software is accurate, so they can see their progress clearly online without having to talk to anybody. Generally the ones in trouble are the ones who switched majors late and have lots of requirements to get in. They sometimes have to take an extra summer or an extra semester.
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 14, 2024, 08:53:55 PMI get that big unis do not operate like SLACs, but irrespective of the overworked professional 'advisors', what exactly is the responsibility of the actual professors here (slac biases showing here, of course)? Those of you who have followed me over the years know well that I do not believe that traditional-aged undergrads are adults, and of course, all the biological research over the last two generations, well, backs me up.
The majority of students, (I'm tempted to say the
vast majority of students), do a decent job of organizing their lives. It is a minority, (which varies by institution, no doubt), that create their own chaos. In my experience at my uni, I'd say 10-20% of first year students would be in that category. Letting those off by saying "their brains aren't baked yet" is insulting to the rest who
take on the responsibility for their own success rather than trying to claim that it's someone else's.
A lot of the above sounds like what happens when institutions replace actual people with software systems.
I went to a SLAC where students were all advised by hand. I also recall the profs at the R1 where I was in the 1990s advising undergrads as well as grads. This discussion has really opened my eyes to just how bare-bones (and, apparently in many cases, sub-optimal) advising has become in many places.
Faculty here don't do advising, and I am highly grateful to our advisors. They deal with many more bureaucratic issues regarding transfers etc. than I could ever wrap my head around. In that regard much of the advising is not really subject specific. Given that, I make sure the students in my classes know that I am available and happy to chat with them about registration and that I am more knowledgeable about our curriculum than many- since I'm the department curriculum head.
My alma mater also required us to meet with a faculty advisor in order to register. However, mine always said up front that his job was not to worry about the minutia of progress towards degree. For that he sent you to the department office staff. He was much more interested in my overall education, was I gaining research experience etc. In that regard he was a truly amazing advisor. But if I had a an issue with a transferred course he would have been less than useless.
Quote from: apl68 on February 15, 2024, 07:38:08 AMA lot of the above sounds like what happens when institutions replace actual people with software systems.
I went to a SLAC where students were all advised by hand. I also recall the profs at the R1 where I was in the 1990s advising undergrads as well as grads. This discussion has really opened my eyes to just how bare-bones (and, apparently in many cases, sub-optimal) advising has become in many places.
At my former CC, some of that goes on the faculty. We had a lot of classes and programs that were out of date, made no sense, or were created by someone who had some strange ideas about how the world worked.
Students (and counselors) would see something that looked good, then follow some very strange paths before realizing they had wasted a lot of time and units on programs that had no transfer, graduation, or job value.
But when you tried to say "well, why do we have this..." there would be lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth about... the neoliberal completion agenda, how people don't REALLY need Bachelor's degrees (from people with Master's degrees and PhDs), blah blah blah.
It is certainly true that in most non-slac places, academic advising is more or less nothing of the sort. I have seen job ads around here for 'academic advisor' positions in various schools (mostly but not always state schools of various stripes), and these jobs are low-paid positions requiring BAs and often essentially entry-level, filled by 23yos. In what universe is it acceptable to require college kids, many of whom (esp at this sort of place) to be 'advised' by people who, ahem, well, errr... have no business being advisors themselves? And how hard would it be to have, say, at the beginning of any given semester, each prof in an upper-level major class to run through all the students (or, if too large, to have the profs split up the students across all the classes), look quickly at their transcripts, and say, esp to seniors, 'lookee here, you need, right now, to sign up for course x, or you will not be able to graduate this semester)? I confess I am trying hard to resist the temptation that schools not doing this bare minimum service for their kids, are perhaps hoping the kids will not sign up for the required class and thereby have to pay tuition for at least one additional semester.
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 16, 2024, 11:07:05 PMIt is certainly true that in most non-slac places, academic advising is more or less nothing of the sort. I have seen job ads around here for 'academic advisor' positions in various schools (mostly but not always state schools of various stripes), and these jobs are low-paid positions requiring BAs and often essentially entry-level, filled by 23yos. In what universe is it acceptable to require college kids, many of whom (esp at this sort of place) to be 'advised' by people who, ahem, well, errr... have no business being advisors themselves? And how hard would it be to have, say, at the beginning of any given semester, each prof in an upper-level major class to run through all the students (or, if too large, to have the profs split up the students across all the classes), look quickly at their transcripts, and say, esp to seniors, 'lookee here, you need, right now, to sign up for course x, or you will not be able to graduate this semester)? I confess I am trying hard to resist the temptation that schools not doing this bare minimum service for their kids, are perhaps hoping the kids will not sign up for the required class and thereby have to pay tuition for at least one additional semester.
For a long time our advising was handled by faculty members in departments. What happened is that so many of them made careless errors that the higher-ups were always having to step in and make exceptions, calm down hysterical students who couldn't graduate but had been assured by faculty that they had fulfilled their requirements, and so forth. And the faculty members would say, "Look, I'm paid to be an expert in my subject, not an expert in the labyrinthine and ever-changing rules of this university."
Finally the university saw the light and started hiring full-time advisors and giving them extensive training. One person per department was retained to be the expert on that department's offerings, but the general education requirements are left up to the professional advisors. (I actually do also advise our students on the gen ed requirements, because I actually understand them, but it is clear that many of my colleagues don't and don't care to.)
I think the takeaway is: don't entrust important functions to people who don't want to do them and who cannot be fired for doing them very badly.
Over the years, my school has gone back and forth.
When I started out, a student needed to be advised each semester before registering for courses. The advising was done by full-time faculty members. This meant, for the faculty members, that usually at least a full day each week was spent advising the students. The good thing is this meant that the faculty got to know their majors. The downside is that takes a lot of time and effort, and professors are not necessarily good at it.
In terms of time, it involves looking at each transcript of the student, which is not always simple since students often have ten years' of transcripts from different schools, some in foreign countries, and figuring out which requirements they have met. The major requirements are usually straight forward, but the general education requirements are often more complicated, depending on how much education a student already has, when they started at the school, etc. Then there is meeting with the student, which often takes between 15 and 20 minutes. And in complicated cases, it was necessary for the advisor to write down notes to explain the advice. So each student can take anywhere from 20 minutes (if straightforward) to close to an hour, plus secretarial help (finding students file, printing the transcript, refiling the file, making the appointment for the student).
Then a while back the school hired professional advisors and make advising optional (as well as drastically cut down on secretarial help). When this works, it works well, because the advisors advise students for particular majors, and they work closely with the department. When it works poorly, it doesn't work.
Part of my job is to clear the transcripts of graduating majors--i.e., sign off that they have met the major requirements. Most of the students are fine, but there are some student who end up taking too many classes, not enough, or, worse, too many of some courses but not enough of another (e.g., they have taken too many European basket weaving courses but not enough Asian basket weaving courses). My job is often more than an art than a science--i.e., creatively finding ways to make the courses they have taken fit their requirements: for example, courses on Ottoman or Russian basket weaving have been known to count for either European or Asian basket weaving, as the need may be). But I have the discretion to do this, while other faculty and advisors do not.
I always tell students that while they do not need to see an faculty advisor each semester, that they closer to graduate, they should see one at least once a year. That is, around their junior year.
At the end of the day (or four years), it is the student's responsibility to do what is necessary to move ahead (or not). I agree with kay that students do not always make the best decisions, but I disagree that they are incapable of doing it. In general, I oppose in loco parentis, but especially on things like this. (Also, parents are not always very good at advising. It is a nightmare when a student wants to bring his mom or dad to an advising section. And when I was a student, I learned very quickly not to talk to my mom--who was an English major--about what courses I should take since she always wanted me to take Shakespeare, which was not particularly appropriate for a history major.)
Quote from: Hegemony on February 17, 2024, 12:37:22 AMFor a long time our advising was handled by faculty members in departments. What happened is that so many of them made careless errors that the higher-ups were always having to step in and make exceptions, calm down hysterical students who couldn't graduate but had been assured by faculty that they had fulfilled their requirements, and so forth. And the faculty members would say, "Look, I'm paid to be an expert in my subject, not an expert in the labyrinthine and ever-changing rules of this university."
Finally the university saw the light and started hiring full-time advisors and giving them extensive training. One person per department was retained to be the expert on that department's offerings, but the general education requirements are left up to the professional advisors. (I actually do also advise our students on the gen ed requirements, because I actually understand them, but it is clear that many of my colleagues don't and don't care to.)
I think the takeaway is: don't entrust important functions to people who don't want to do them and who cannot be fired for doing them very badly.
The faculty advisor model that I recall seemed to work at a SLAC. In bigger schools where production of students is more industrial than artisan, a system like you describe--trained full-time advisors to advise students on general ed requirements, and subject experts in each department to deal with majors--would probably work as well as anything. One would hope that the full-time advisors would be well-trained and conscientious in their work, and ready to listen when faculty members catch them giving bad advice because they don't know any better.
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 16, 2024, 11:07:05 PMIn what universe is it acceptable to require college kids, many of whom (esp at this sort of place) to be 'advised' by people who, ahem, well, errr... have no business being advisors themselves?
As others have pointed out, most of what advisors do is just bookkeeping; checking to see that students have checked the required boxes for their program. It doesn't take subject-area knowledge.
QuoteAnd how hard would it be to have, say, at the beginning of any given semester, each prof in an upper-level major class to run through all the students (or, if too large, to have the profs split up the students across all the classes), look quickly at their transcripts, and say, esp to seniors, 'lookee here, you need, right now, to sign up for course x, or you will not be able to graduate this semester)?
That is a perfect example of why it
doesn't require
faculty; it just requires someone who can follow instructions ("2 courses from Category A; 3 courses from Category B", etc.).
The one place faculty
are required is for
transfer students. In the past I've been called in to determine whether a student from OtherU with a course "Fabric Containers 221" meets the requirement at MarshU for "Cloth Baskets 321". But that doesn't involve meeting with students, and it's usually done when they transfer, and a note is put in their transcript so in future anyone can clearly tell that they have the credit.
Also, many (most?) programs tend to have clearly laid-out sample schedules suggesting what courses students are expected to take each semester in order to graduate in the normal time. Students who follow this won't need extra advice, and students who transfer in, fail courses, or otherwise
deviate from the schedule should be talking to an advisor
at the time they make the deviation to chart their new path.Once they've done that, as long as they stick to it, they don't need any more advising. If they deviate from
that path, the process repeats.
It is condescending, as well as a huge waste of time and resources, to have people
proactively looking over students' shoulders to herd them to success in spite of themselves.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 17, 2024, 08:05:24 AMQuote from: kaysixteen on February 16, 2024, 11:07:05 PMIn what universe is it acceptable to require college kids, many of whom (esp at this sort of place) to be 'advised' by people who, ahem, well, errr... have no business being advisors themselves?
As others have pointed out, most of what advisors do is just bookkeeping; checking to see that students have checked the required boxes for their program. It doesn't take subject-area knowledge.
QuoteAnd how hard would it be to have, say, at the beginning of any given semester, each prof in an upper-level major class to run through all the students (or, if too large, to have the profs split up the students across all the classes), look quickly at their transcripts, and say, esp to seniors, 'lookee here, you need, right now, to sign up for course x, or you will not be able to graduate this semester)?
That is a perfect example of why it doesn't require faculty; it just requires someone who can follow instructions ("2 courses from Category A; 3 courses from Category B", etc.).
The one place faculty are required is for transfer students. In the past I've been called in to determine whether a student from OtherU with a course "Fabric Containers 221" meets the requirement at MarshU for "Cloth Baskets 321". But that doesn't involve meeting with students, and it's usually done when they transfer, and a note is put in their transcript so in future anyone can clearly tell that they have the credit.
Also, many (most?) programs tend to have clearly laid-out sample schedules suggesting what courses students are expected to take each semester in order to graduate in the normal time. Students who follow this won't need extra advice, and students who transfer in, fail courses, or otherwise deviate from the schedule should be talking to an advisor at the time they make the deviation to chart their new path.Once they've done that, as long as they stick to it, they don't need any more advising. If they deviate from that path, the process repeats.
It is condescending, as well as a huge waste of time and resources, to have people proactively looking over students' shoulders to herd them to success in spite of themselves.
Where counseling is important is dispelling rumors students hear, answering questions, and if a student wants to change majors, what is the most graceful and efficient way of helping the student achieve their goals.
Students often need someone to talk to about college, careers, majors, what-ifs, and counselors are very important for that. The proactive "check-the-box" meeting is really about making sure the student is staying on track, rather than waiting for them to get into trouble.
Quote from: ciao_yall on February 17, 2024, 08:40:57 AMWhere counseling is important is dispelling rumors students hear, answering questions, and if a student wants to change majors, what is the most graceful and efficient way of helping the student achieve their goals.
I'm not sure how many "rumors" the average student needs to have dispelled, but certainly advice about changing majors is very much on point.
QuoteStudents often need someone to talk to about college, careers, majors, what-ifs, and counselors are very important for that. The proactive "check-the-box" meeting is really about making sure the student is staying on track, rather than waiting for them to get into trouble.
If the student has taken and passed all of the recommended courses to date, with a decent average, and is registered for the recommended courses for the next semester or year, a "proactive 'check-the-box' meeting" is a waste of time. By definition, such a student
is staying on track and doesn't need a meeting just for someone to state the obvious.
Busting the rumors is critical!
I will give you a current example in my department. We are currently in the faculty discussion stage of revising a core course in our major. Apparently a faculty member mentioned this to a student- who heard that core course is being eliminated! So now we have a bunch of students who are planning on skipping core course- even though it's a pre-req to almost everything in our department!
That rumor needs to be busted and fast to prevent total curricular chaos.
Read the riot act to the idiot colleague who misinformed the kid.
I get that computer programs, 23yo office flunkies, etc., can do the mere box checking aspect of advising. But these things cannot do real, ahem, academic *advising*, the sort of thing many folks here have already alluded to. A real discipline-specific professor can, and should. S/he can look at the kid's transcripts and not only ascertain what courses still need taking, but also engage in convos with the kid wrt his plans for the future, what direction he wants to take, etc., and give real, substantive, and *useful* advice. I never would have signed up for German 101 as a junior had my classics dept faculty advisor not urged me to do so, when he realized my classics grad school plans were serious, as he noted that I would absolutely positively need to know German then (perhaps this is *somewhat* less true in the 2020s than in the 1980s, but not by much)-- this gave me five semesters' head-start at really learning it, and allowed me to win a German govt DAAD fellowship to study at a uni language program there the summer right after I graduated. I could give many examples like this, not only for myself, but for others. And this sort of real faculty advising also alloweth the development of real mentoring relationships between fac and majors.
I'm not sure it was the colleague's fault. People have an amazing ability to hear something entirely different from what you're trying to tell them. I've seen it happen many times. In the case mythbuster mentions (And who better to go around busting rumors, by the way?), the students' supposition that they will no longer have to worry about certain core courses may be a case of wishful thinking. Wishful thinking can really amplify rumors sometimes.
I'm with kay in principle that strong faculty advising is the ideal. But realistically, at most schools I would suppose that faculty are spread too thin to be able to advise everybody. So they get staff members to help them check the boxes on their standardized major paths--which is probably what most students think college is all about anyway.
Faculty advisors are good for actual students.
However, when I was an undergraduate faculty advisor, 75% of my students weren't interested in anything. If I asked them what aspects of their courses they had found interesting, they looked at me like I had two heads, as if anyone could be actually interested in anything in their courses. They just wanted to know how to get their boxes checked to graduate, preferably with the least amount of work on their part possible.
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 19, 2024, 11:15:22 AMRead the riot act to the idiot colleague who misinformed the kid.
I get that computer programs, 23yo office flunkies, etc., can do the mere box checking aspect of advising. But these things cannot do real, ahem, academic *advising*, the sort of thing many folks here have already alluded to. A real discipline-specific professor can, and should. S/he can look at the kid's transcripts and not only ascertain what courses still need taking, but also engage in convos with the kid wrt his plans for the future, what direction he wants to take, etc., and give real, substantive, and *useful* advice. I never would have signed up for German 101 as a junior had my classics dept faculty advisor not urged me to do so, when he realized my classics grad school plans were serious, as he noted that I would absolutely positively need to know German then (perhaps this is *somewhat* less true in the 2020s than in the 1980s, but not by much)-- this gave me five semesters' head-start at really learning it, and allowed me to win a German govt DAAD fellowship to study at a uni language program there the summer right after I graduated. I could give many examples like this, not only for myself, but for others. And this sort of real faculty advising also alloweth the development of real mentoring relationships between fac and majors.
Oh, great. One of my ChatGPTers has been emailing me all weekend and I haven't responded because I tell them that I don't work on weekends (not quite true, but true enough so far as they're concerned) and we've not reached the point of all-caps "FOR MY LIFE AND MY PARENTS' LIFE".
The English is pretty garbled, but I think it's about long-term plans for the future (i.e. level of debt + work permit) rather than suicide.
Also, this student "needs" 90%+ in "my" class to avoid academic probation. Mmhmm. You were doing so well that you thought you needed to use ChatGPT. You were totally going to get 90%+.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 03, 2024, 07:39:29 PMThe English is pretty garbled, but I think it's about long-term plans for the future (i.e. level of debt + work permit) rather than suicide.
If that's not 100% clear, I'd go ahead and escalate this to whatever the proper place is there (here we call it the "care team"). Better safe than sorry (failure and resulting shame and guilt really is a major suicide risk factor, especially if there is family pressure and cultural values around not shaming the family at play), and even if the student is actually fine and just being entitled and obnoxious about it, you have a paper trail of expressing concern for them.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 03, 2024, 07:39:29 PMOh, great. One of my ChatGPTers has been emailing me all weekend and I haven't responded because I tell them that I don't work on weekends (not quite true, but true enough so far as they're concerned) and we've not reached the point of all-caps "FOR MY LIFE AND MY PARENTS' LIFE".
The English is pretty garbled, but I think it's about long-term plans for the future (i.e. level of debt + work permit) rather than suicide.
Also, this student "needs" 90%+ in "my" class to avoid academic probation. Mmhmm. You were doing so well that you thought you needed to use ChatGPT. You were totally going to get 90%+.
This makes me feel the need to repost a classic:
The Dead Grandmother/Exam Syndrome (https://improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume5/v5i6/GrandmotherEffect%205-6.pdf)
Quote from: Puget on March 04, 2024, 06:53:24 AMQuote from: Parasaurolophus on March 03, 2024, 07:39:29 PMThe English is pretty garbled, but I think it's about long-term plans for the future (i.e. level of debt + work permit) rather than suicide.
If that's not 100% clear, I'd go ahead and escalate this to whatever the proper place is there (here we call it the "care team"). Better safe than sorry (failure and resulting shame and guilt really is a major suicide risk factor, especially if there is family pressure and cultural values around not shaming the family at play), and even if the student is actually fine and just being entitled and obnoxious about it, you have a paper trail of expressing concern for them.
I second the vote to escalate it quickly due to the threat of self-harm. If they are in a crisis, you'll be getting them the help they need. If they are being overly dramatic & not actually in danger, they'll get a wake up call that their behavior is not appropriate.
Got one today:
QuoteDr. [Geneticist]
I was wondering if there will be some kind of curve to the final exam, maybe something about adding some extra points based on the class average. If there is anything like that or if my assumption is wrong, let me know as soon as you can.
Thank you for looking at my email
Very Anxious Student
Stu is very polite, but does not need to worry. Stu has an A+ in the class. They could get a C on the final and still get an A in the class.
Their classmates who need to worry are the ones who need to get an A on the final to get a C in the class.
Ok. Will you perhaps however consider replying to Stu, telling him about the inappropriateness of his request?
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 15, 2024, 03:42:29 PMGot one today:
QuoteDr. [Geneticist]
I was wondering if there will be some kind of curve to the final exam, maybe something about adding some extra points based on the class average. If there is anything like that or if my assumption is wrong, let me know as soon as you can.
Thank you for looking at my email
Very Anxious Student
Stu is very polite, but does not need to worry. Stu has an A+ in the class. They could get a C on the final and still get an A in the class.
Their classmates who need to worry are the ones who need to get an A on the final to get a C in the class.
Falls into the category of "the worried well," I guess. Some conscientious, imposter-syndrome-ridden students really do worry that much. I know I did. I came away from my GRE fearing that I'd bombed it, and was subsequently informed that I'd gotten the highest GRE score that any major in the department had yet made. Mind you, that might not have been saying
too much for all I know....
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 15, 2024, 08:49:00 PMOk. Will you perhaps however consider replying to Stu, telling him about the inappropriateness of his request?
I wrote back to say that the grade cut-offs were in the syllabus. It was an honest question & deserves an answer. It's not inappropriate to ask if I would be doing a curve* (which students really don't understand), it's inappropriate to demand that I do so.
*The students want to know if we will be lowering the threshold for what counts as a A- vs B+. Plus, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that grades should follow a normal bellcurve. Grades are earned individually & everyone has the opportunity to earn all the points in my classes.
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 27, 2024, 01:20:44 PM*The students want to know if we will be lowering the threshold for what counts as a A- vs B+. Plus, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that grades should follow a normal bellcurve. Grades are earned individually & everyone has the opportunity to earn all the points in my classes.
^ This, x 1,000.
I finally got this email. "I am aware that our exam week will be May {-}, however, I will be traveling that week for vacation."
Somehow it makes me happy.
It never ceases to amaze me how casually so many students apparently take dropping class, and even exams, to go on vacation or what have you. I don't recall any of that in the 1980s and 1990s. For me it would have been just unthinkable that anybody would do something like that. By all accounts this sort of thing is now highly common among K-12 families, so I suppose the college students are just giving their education the priority their parents have taught them to give it.
Yep. We require attendance in lab in week 1 or else students are dropped & the seat is offered to the students on the waitlist. If they contact us, we let them stay enrolled & do an online assignment. Once.
Stu wrote back to say "but I'm still on vacation with my family!"
I gave them the online makeup lab.
Did they do it? Nope.
Now they are emailing in a panic that they are already SO BEHIND & wanting an extension. They can turn it in late. If they had read the syllabus, they would know this. Or just tried opening the assignment.
What did they think would happen? That nothing is due in any of their classes?
Life is full of choices, choices have consequences. Stu is not pleased by the consequences.
apl is certainly correct to note that this sort of thing would not have flown when we Xers were undergrads. But let's read the posts more carefully, and note that these Zer vacationers are, ahem, going on/ staying on vacay with their, ahem, parents. Some of these parents may have even insisted that the kid ask profs for extensions/ earlier exams, etc., and certainly no parent who takes kid on vacay during school session time thinks there is anything wrong with doing so, and most would overtly expect that profs, when contacted, would and should give allowances. The parents and the kids certainly did this in k12 nowadays.... all the time.... and adminiscritters there do grant such allowances.
Today is a critique day for one of the four major projects in this course. I tell students, and have it in the syllabus, and in the course announcements for blackboard, that barring a documented emergency you must be present for critiques. I got this email last night:
"Hey Mr. Onehappyunicorn,
I won't be able to make it to class tomorrow because my mom's hired cleaners had to postpone a day, so I'll have to be home tomorrow morning to make sure they don't steal or break anything."
I've been here for 11 years and I don't think I ever have received an email that I am less sympathetic to...
I've had three online students this semester email me to tell me they are "totally lost" on an essay--and then immediately disappear from the class for one or two weeks.
Like they think they sent up the Bat Signal and are now waiting for me to come to their house or something.
Weird.
QuoteHey there!
I was recently checking the syllabus and did not see a date. I needed to turn in the final essay and journal portfolio. I was wondering when those dates were.
a) I'm used to flaky students not knowing my name, but I do not know why "hey there!" has become the preferred method of addressing instructors
b) The due dates for those two assignments are on the syllabus (under due dates), on the calendar, on the assignment sheets themselves, and on a slideshow posted to the LMS with the title "Due Dates for April."
"Hey there" is obviously completely unacceptable as a form of address to a professor. Will you call stu on this? Would anyone else here do so?
Whenever a student does the "Hey there" thing I respond with the way I want them to send emails, something like "Good afternoon Stu...". Most students seem to get it within a response or two.
For those that don't I try to talk to them in-person. Most students, I have found, are coming from a place of ignorance rather than intentional rudeness. When I have explained the importance of appropriate communication, and how that reflects on how they are perceived, I have not had any issues.
Now when I get emails from staff that are addressed that way, well, that is a problem I don't have a solution for.
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on April 15, 2024, 05:37:57 AMWhenever a student does the "Hey there" thing I respond with the way I want them to send emails, something like "Good afternoon Stu...". Most students seem to get it within a response or two.
For those that don't I try to talk to them in-person. Most students, I have found, are coming from a place of ignorance rather than intentional rudeness. When I have explained the importance of appropriate communication, and how that reflects on how they are perceived, I have not had any issues.
Now when I get emails from staff that are addressed that way, well, that is a problem I don't have a solution for.
It's surely usually fairer with youths to assume ignorance of conventions rather than deliberate rudeness. Your approach sounds like a good way to help them to learn what they need to learn there.
We go over email etiquette on the first or second day of class. There's also a sentence in the syllabus under "how to contact me" informing students that emails are professional ways to communicate with profs and staff. "Hey there" and similar salutations would direct the students to the syllabus and/the link to what to include in emails given to students during the first week of class.
Not an email, but feedback on a course: "Every topic was quite interesting and i like every topic but they are also boring "
But boring in an agreeable and interesting sort of way. Not the bad kind of boring.
From a junior in college:
"goodmorning, and i feel like some of the assignments i earned more than what i got my actual work was good just was not formatted how you wanted but aside from how it's formatted the actual work i feel i should have a higher grade in certain assignments"
And no, the actual work wasn't actually that good: they tend to do the minimum (when they do answer all of the questions for each assignment) and hand work in late. Plus the plagiarism, of course.
Hmmmm.... methinks you are granting too much to the notion that ignorance is responsible for this kid's behavior. He would almost certainly never have dared to email one of his hs teachers this way-- what would he suspect had changed?
Quote from: fosca on April 15, 2024, 01:56:15 PMFrom a junior in college:
"goodmorning, and i feel like some of the assignments i earned more than what i got my actual work was good just was not formatted how you wanted but aside from how it's formatted the actual work i feel i should have a higher grade in certain assignments"
Wow! ee cummings has reincarnated!
Quote from: kaysixteen on April 15, 2024, 07:26:33 PMHmmmm.... methinks you are granting too much to the notion that ignorance is responsible for this kid's behavior. He would almost certainly never have dared to email one of his hs teachers this way-- what would he suspect had changed?
Why would you assume that?
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 16, 2024, 05:18:33 AMQuote from: fosca on April 15, 2024, 01:56:15 PMFrom a junior in college:
"goodmorning, and i feel like some of the assignments i earned more than what i got my actual work was good just was not formatted how you wanted but aside from how it's formatted the actual work i feel i should have a higher grade in certain assignments"
Wow! ee cummings has reincarnated!
LOL!
But actually pretty sad, especially if this is not an ESL student. If the student's work looked remotely like this correspondence, then the student surely earned no better a grade than what fosca gave.
Quote from: apl68 on April 16, 2024, 07:35:42 AMQuote from: marshwiggle on April 16, 2024, 05:18:33 AMQuote from: fosca on April 15, 2024, 01:56:15 PMFrom a junior in college:
"goodmorning, and i feel like some of the assignments i earned more than what i got my actual work was good just was not formatted how you wanted but aside from how it's formatted the actual work i feel i should have a higher grade in certain assignments"
Wow! ee cummings has reincarnated!
LOL!
But actually pretty sad, especially if this is not an ESL student. If the student's work looked remotely like this correspondence, then the student surely earned no better a grade than what fosca gave.
I'd bet cash money that the message was typed on a phone, like every other communication Stu has with anyone. Punctuation and capitalization are "adulting" behaviours and so VEEERY HAAAARD!
I've been having an email conversation that is basically:
stu: Can I still get points for the assignment I missed?
me: See the syllabus for the late penalty. You can still turn it in.
stu: But I already did it! I just forgot to submit.
me: We can only grade you based on what you submitted.
Quote from: apl68 on April 16, 2024, 07:35:42 AMQuote from: marshwiggle on April 16, 2024, 05:18:33 AMQuote from: fosca on April 15, 2024, 01:56:15 PMFrom a junior in college:
"goodmorning, and i feel like some of the assignments i earned more than what i got my actual work was good just was not formatted how you wanted but aside from how it's formatted the actual work i feel i should have a higher grade in certain assignments"
Wow! ee cummings has reincarnated!
LOL!
But actually pretty sad, especially if this is not an ESL student. If the student's work looked remotely like this correspondence, then the student surely earned no better a grade than what fosca gave.
The written work isn't quite this bad, but there is definitely a resemblance (no paragraphs, lack of capital letters, not much punctuation, etc.). So yeah, they earned the C and D grades for the work.
1) because I have extensive hs teaching experience
2) hs teachers are very eager to be shown deference and respect from their students
3) hs kids' parents traditionally would not tolerate this, though I do admit this is perhaps changing
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on April 15, 2024, 05:37:57 AMWhenever a student does the "Hey there" thing I respond with the way I want them to send emails, something like "Good afternoon Stu...". Most students seem to get it within a response or two.
For those that don't I try to talk to them in-person. Most students, I have found, are coming from a place of ignorance rather than intentional rudeness. When I have explained the importance of appropriate communication, and how that reflects on how they are perceived, I have not had any issues.
Now when I get emails from staff that are addressed that way, well, that is a problem I don't have a solution for.
I've got a section on emails in my syllabus. I reiterate how to spell my name (it's a weird one) and to identify themselves because I have many students over four sections. I generally don't care if they refer to me as Mr. or Dr. or Prof, as long as they're not addressing my by my first name -- doing that WILL get them a response.
I think the "hey there" is a generational thing. My I have friends in the theater dept (age ranges 27-34) who use "hey there" in informal messages (never in departmental emails). So it may be that.
It also may be that many students just don't know my name. At all. The student who prompted my post earlier attends maybe 50% of classes and is struggling mightily. Maybe I should ask "what's my name" on the final exam.
Quote from: RatGuy on April 17, 2024, 05:53:47 AMIt also may be that many students just don't know my name. At all. The student who prompted my post earlier attends maybe 50% of classes and is struggling mightily. Maybe I should ask "what's my name" on the final exam.
That's areal thing. Years ago, I had students in two lab sections answer a multiple choice survey. One question was "Who was your TA?" The choices were "Alice" and "Bob", neither of which were non-binary, gender-fluid, or anything of the sort. A few students picked "I don't know."
Having to actually
remember a prof's
name; that takes it to a whole other level.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 17, 2024, 05:59:27 AMQuote from: RatGuy on April 17, 2024, 05:53:47 AMIt also may be that many students just don't know my name. At all. The student who prompted my post earlier attends maybe 50% of classes and is struggling mightily. Maybe I should ask "what's my name" on the final exam.
That's areal thing. Years ago, I had students in two lab sections answer a multiple choice survey. One question was "Who was your TA?" The choices were "Alice" and "Bob", neither of which were non-binary, gender-fluid, or anything of the sort. A few students picked "I don't know."
Having to actually remember a prof's name; that takes it to a whole other level.
I wonder why that is? Is it simply a symptom of lack of engagement? Is it due to a tendency of youths to outsource their memories to their phones?
If you have students who keep asking for extra credit and bonus opportunities, I guess you could use "What is my name" and "What is your TA's name" for those.
Quote from: apl68 on April 17, 2024, 06:30:59 AMQuote from: marshwiggle on April 17, 2024, 05:59:27 AMQuote from: RatGuy on April 17, 2024, 05:53:47 AMIt also may be that many students just don't know my name. At all. The student who prompted my post earlier attends maybe 50% of classes and is struggling mightily. Maybe I should ask "what's my name" on the final exam.
That's areal thing. Years ago, I had students in two lab sections answer a multiple choice survey. One question was "Who was your TA?" The choices were "Alice" and "Bob", neither of which were non-binary, gender-fluid, or anything of the sort. A few students picked "I don't know."
Having to actually remember a prof's name; that takes it to a whole other level.
I wonder why that is? Is it simply a symptom of lack of engagement? Is it due to a tendency of youths to outsource their memories to their phones?
I call it "information triage". Many *people, as information is being presented to them, automatically filter it by saying "Is this relevant to me RIGHT NOW?" If the answer is "no", they don't bother to record or remember it. The idea that it could be relevant
someday is too esoteric to be considered.
*Especially young people, probably at least in part due to the idea you alluded to of everything important being "google-able", so therefore not necessary to pay attention to.
I'll also say they don't know names of things in other contexts either. One of the most missed questions on quizzes are things like "what's the name of the main character" or "Who wrote this essay" or "Which of the texts was written by Harriet Jacobs." In class discussion, students generally say "they say...." and I make them clarify "they." Do you mean author, narrator, character (the differences of which we cover in the first few weeks). Heck, many of them don't know the names of any of the other people in class.
I think that for underclassmen it's incredibly difficult for them to think with any specificity. Why? I dunno. I do know that I spend more time than I used to on things like vocabulary -- the story is called "The Piazza," so what is a piazza? What's a pew? What's a cottage?
So you have forgotten prof's name-- 'Dear Sir:' worketh well, or at least, 'Dear Professor:'.
Quote from: RatGuy on April 17, 2024, 07:55:55 AMI'll also say they don't know names of things in other contexts either. One of the most missed questions on quizzes are things like "what's the name of the main character" or "Who wrote this essay" or "Which of the texts was written by Harriet Jacobs." In class discussion, students generally say "they say...." and I make them clarify "they." Do you mean author, narrator, character (the differences of which we cover in the first few weeks). Heck, many of them don't know the names of any of the other people in class.
I think that for underclassmen it's incredibly difficult for them to think with any specificity. Why? I dunno. I do know that I spend more time than I used to on things like vocabulary -- the story is called "The Piazza," so what is a piazza? What's a pew? What's a cottage?
I've noticed several observations along these lines at The Fora over the years. I wonder whether this problem with specificity and joined-up thinking has to do with the pedagogical methods that have been used with their education, or if they might be cognitive effects of lifelong media exposure. Or a combination of the two, or something else altogether.
Quote from: kaysixteen on April 17, 2024, 10:19:33 AMSo you have forgotten prof's name-- 'Dear Sir:' worketh well, or at least, 'Dear Professor:'.
Didn't forget his name, but in grad school I can recall addressing one of my profs--an older Latin American history specialist--in an e-mail as
Vr. Md. (Vuestra Merced). This same prof had a key chain doohickey that croaked like a frog when he pressed it. I once answered a phone call and heard that sound, and answered "Hello, Dr. <Emeritus>." He appreciated that. He had little ways like that of keeping you on your toes. Interesting guy to know.
Quote2) hs teachers are very eager to be shown deference and respect from their students
Hah! Not here in the city. My neighbor, a high school teacher reports that she's been called every name under the sun except hers, especially the b-word. I've also been called the b-word by at least a couple of male students.
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 17, 2024, 11:06:56 AMQuote2) hs teachers are very eager to be shown deference and respect from their students
Hah! Not here in the city. My neighbor, a high school teacher reports that she's been called every name under the sun except hers, especially the b-word. I've also been called the b-word by at least a couple of male students.
If I witnessed somebody doing that to a staff member here, he would be out on his rear end.
Hello Dr. Mode,
I understand that there is a standard for [deletes boring engineering standard stuff, which Stu got incorrect on his assignment]. I am by no means arguing with the standard just the fact of the circumstances in this case. I am in no way trying to be rude by continuing this argument. I just think the penalty on my assignment is unfair due to the fact that it was my whole intention to do it correctly.
Thank you,
Stu
At least he said thank you. Does he really think he should earn points because he didn't intend to do it incorrectly? Ugh. I've heard a lot of excuses over the years, but this at least is a new spin on things.
My reply was:
Stu,
The standards exist for a reason, please refer back to the assignment information. The points deducted for making that common mistake were indicated on the grading rubric, and on the assignment itself, as well as discussed at length in class before you started work. Your grade, as posted, is correct.
See you in class,
Dr. Mode
Quote from: EdnaMode on April 18, 2024, 06:14:06 AMDoes he really think he should earn points because he didn't intend to do it incorrectly? Ugh. I've heard a lot of excuses over the years, but this at least is a new spin on things.
I didn't
intend for that bridge I designed to fall down...
Quote from: Liquidambar on April 18, 2024, 07:11:31 AMQuote from: EdnaMode on April 18, 2024, 06:14:06 AMDoes he really think he should earn points because he didn't intend to do it incorrectly? Ugh. I've heard a lot of excuses over the years, but this at least is a new spin on things.
I didn't intend for that bridge I designed to fall down...
I guess Stu is unaware of the road surface on the way to Hell.
Quote from: Liquidambar on April 18, 2024, 07:11:31 AMQuote from: EdnaMode on April 18, 2024, 06:14:06 AMDoes he really think he should earn points because he didn't intend to do it incorrectly? Ugh. I've heard a lot of excuses over the years, but this at least is a new spin on things.
I didn't intend for that bridge I designed to fall down...
I didn't
intend to adjust that torque wrench using the wrong units, and apply sixteen times the specified amount of torque, and twist the heads off all those bolts on the engine (True story shared by a vocational-technical teacher of my acquaintance).
Thanks for the responses apl68, marshwiggle, and Liquidambar. I needed a good laugh today :)
Quote from: EdnaMode on April 18, 2024, 06:14:06 AMDoes he really think he should earn points because he didn't intend to do it incorrectly? Ugh. I've heard a lot of excuses over the years, but this at least is a new spin on things.
I swear all of my plagiarists say this and seem to assume that I'll just automatically say "Well, that's all right then, no penalty for you!" I do know they get really indignant when I
don't say that.
Quote from: fosca on April 18, 2024, 11:45:43 AMQuote from: EdnaMode on April 18, 2024, 06:14:06 AMDoes he really think he should earn points because he didn't intend to do it incorrectly? Ugh. I've heard a lot of excuses over the years, but this at least is a new spin on things.
I swear all of my plagiarists say this and seem to assume that I'll just automatically say "Well, that's all right then, no penalty for you!" I do know they get really indignant when I don't say that.
Participation trophies are so 90's;
intention trophies are where it's at now! Who cares about all that pesky effort; after all, it's the thought that counts.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 18, 2024, 12:03:54 PMQuote from: fosca on April 18, 2024, 11:45:43 AMQuote from: EdnaMode on April 18, 2024, 06:14:06 AMDoes he really think he should earn points because he didn't intend to do it incorrectly? Ugh. I've heard a lot of excuses over the years, but this at least is a new spin on things.
I swear all of my plagiarists say this and seem to assume that I'll just automatically say "Well, that's all right then, no penalty for you!" I do know they get really indignant when I don't say that.
Participation trophies are so 90's; intention trophies are where it's at now! Who cares about all that pesky effort; after all, it's the thought that counts.
I didn't intend to get middle-aged and gain weight and get wrinkles... I want an intention trophy that will magically make me look young again.
Seriously though, I know I make some of these students angry by saying no to their requests for leniency. But I also figure that it is part of my job to make them understand that rules are rules, standards are standards, and if they want to advance in their career as an engineer without killing somebody or making million dollar mistakes, they need to pay attention to the details.
I've seen video of an engineer who signed off on a fatally-flawed project that ultimately caused a number of fatalities issue a mea culpa in an interview. He accepted that the buck stopped with him. It must have been one of the hardest things he ever had to do.
Quote from: apl68 on April 19, 2024, 07:20:39 AMI've seen video of an engineer who signed off on a fatally-flawed project that ultimately caused a number of fatalities issue a mea culpa in an interview. He accepted that the buck stopped with him. It must have been one of the hardest things he ever had to do.
We talk about things like that with our students a lot. One colleague, when covering ethics, shows videos of the man who signed off on the KC Hyatt Regency Skywalk, someone who messed up on a bridge, and a couple others I can't remember. I tell my students that often the BIG mistakes, someone will usually catch, it's the little ones, changing a fastener, incorrect rounding when calculating a load, etc., that cost a lot of money to fix and/or potentially kill people. Sometimes I think they all believe that it couldn't happen to them, that when they have a real job, they'll pay more attention than what they do in class.
Quote from: EdnaMode on April 19, 2024, 07:41:51 AMQuote from: apl68 on April 19, 2024, 07:20:39 AMI've seen video of an engineer who signed off on a fatally-flawed project that ultimately caused a number of fatalities issue a mea culpa in an interview. He accepted that the buck stopped with him. It must have been one of the hardest things he ever had to do.
We talk about things like that with our students a lot. One colleague, when covering ethics, shows videos of the man who signed off on the KC Hyatt Regency Skywalk, someone who messed up on a bridge, and a couple others I can't remember. I tell my students that often the BIG mistakes, someone will usually catch, it's the little ones, changing a fastener, incorrect rounding when calculating a load, etc., that cost a lot of money to fix and/or potentially kill people. Sometimes I think they all believe that it couldn't happen to them, that when they have a real job, they'll pay more attention than what they do in class.
I think the Hyatt Regency disaster was the one I had in mind. I saw a documentary about that quite recently. Yes, that seemed like such a small modification, and yet proved so catastrophic. Even a lay observer can see--certainly in hindsight--that that was a bad idea. And yet somehow somebody had a lapse and didn't think it through, and nobody else caught it.
I can see why the retired engineer who used to be my main boss on the library's Board of Trustees was so obsessive about keeping an eye on every detail. Whenever I have cause to go through the old records and specs on our building's construction around the turn of the century, the amount of detail involved is mind-boggling. And this is just a relatively small single-story structure, built on a slab on level ground, with no architecturally radical or daring features.
I hope that budding engineers not only have to go through high-standards courses to graduate, but are also still subjected to rigorous on-the-job, real-world apprenticeship work before they can advance far enough to do any damage. My father wanted to be an engineer, but was called to preach and studied for the ministry instead. He continued to support the family as a mason. When I worked for him in the summers, he was
very insistent on paying attention and doing a proper job in every aspect of the work. That was an education in itself that carried over into my college career and my work today.
Quote from: apl68 on April 19, 2024, 08:02:03 AMMy father wanted to be an engineer, but was called to preach and studied for the ministry instead. He continued to support the family as a mason. When I worked for him in the summers, he was very insistent on paying attention and doing a proper job in every aspect of the work. That was an education in itself that carried over into my college career and my work today.
My father was an engineer, and his obsession for detail was legendary. The house he supervised construction of is standing unscathed almost 40 years later, while other structures around develop leaks, cracks, tilts, whatnot. At the time however, his meticulousness and refusal to budge an iota drove the contractor and my mother crazy and prolonged the construction time greatly.
I am sorry to say I am way more slapdash (I am not an engineer thankfully), but off and on, his meticulous ways re-emerge in me (and siblings), and we never regret it when we follow that path.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 18, 2024, 12:03:54 PMQuote from: fosca on April 18, 2024, 11:45:43 AMQuote from: EdnaMode on April 18, 2024, 06:14:06 AMDoes he really think he should earn points because he didn't intend to do it incorrectly? Ugh. I've heard a lot of excuses over the years, but this at least is a new spin on things.
I swear all of my plagiarists say this and seem to assume that I'll just automatically say "Well, that's all right then, no penalty for you!" I do know they get really indignant when I don't say that.
Participation trophies are so 90's; intention trophies are where it's at now! Who cares about all that pesky effort; after all, it's the thought that counts.
I really, really wanted to suggest to one of my plagiarists using this excuse that if they actually wanted to go into criminal justice they might want to consider what a plagiarism note in their file might do to that future. But I suspect that would be considered being too mean.
Quote from: apl68 on April 19, 2024, 08:02:03 AMI hope that budding engineers not only have to go through high-standards courses to graduate, but are also still subjected to rigorous on-the-job, real-world apprenticeship work before they can advance far enough to do any damage.
Obviously, I can't speak for all programs but I'm proud of ours. All of us faculty have practical experience in the field - I worked in the construction-related field for years. We all have either a PhD or are PEs (licensed professional engineers) and some are both. We hold our students to a very high standard that our administration typically supports when the students send complaints up the chain of command and appeal grades that are 'not fair' because the professor was 'mean.' We require hand calculations along with computer-based solutions to many problems. Heck, in lab today, my students had to solve a problem three ways and part of their grade was based on discussing why there were ever so slight differences in the results.
To graduate, our students must either complete an internship with very specific requirements, or take part in a year-long industrial-sponsored capstone project. They are well prepared. We consistently look for ways to hold our students to a high standard and be fair at the same time. Engineering has an unfortunate reputation for being needlessly hard and having too many 'weed out' courses. That can be true, but we try to avoid making courses hard for the sake of being hard. We also place an absolute limit on the number of times students can retake a course because there is no joy in stringing students along if they will never actually earn a degree.
Many of the larger companies in fields like automotive, aerospace, oil and gas, etc. who hire our students put new employees with less experience through what they call a rotational program where they work at different jobs in the company for several months at a time and see where their skills and interests best fit in the company. So, aside from the embarrassing stuff that makes the news about quality and standards (especially recently), most of the companies I've ever worked with/near/around, even oil and gas, are quite serious about doing a good job and being safe.
After he retired from the military, my Dad worked as a machinist. I always wanted to help him starting when I was little and he gave me small, safe, chores to do and explained what he was doing. I was probably the only elementary school kid who had a basic understanding of torque. I do a lot of my own home repairs, and the stuff I can't do, I follow the repairmen around asking all sorts of questions so I'm sure my Dad is smiling down from the great beyond saying "That's my girl!"
Quote from: EdnaMode on April 19, 2024, 03:48:02 PMAfter he retired from the military, my Dad worked as a machinist. I always wanted to help him starting when I was little and he gave me small, safe, chores to do and explained what he was doing. I was probably the only elementary school kid who had a basic understanding of torque. I do a lot of my own home repairs, and the stuff I can't do, I follow the repairmen around asking all sorts of questions so I'm sure my Dad is smiling down from the great beyond saying "That's my girl!"
You sound like a retired engineer of my acquaintance. When he was a boy walking home from school, he would visit every shop in his small town and try to see what the guys there were doing. Once they saw that he wasn't going to make trouble, they'd let him hang around and ask questions. By the time he was in high school the manager of a local welding and machine shop had come to let him have the run of the place and all its equipment to work on any project he wanted.
I try to understand what our repair technicians are doing when they work at the library. If I can learn something about what's actually supposed to be happening with the different systems, I can ask intelligent (hopefully) questions to help diagnose and prevent problems. Assuming they
can be diagnosed and prevented, which is not always the case.
I am loving the tales of retired military engineer Dads (as was mine). No matter where in the world, the traits and quirks of skilled engineers seem the same.
I'm now dealing with what I think are "favorite, why didn't you email me?" emails.
Stu was absent from lab two weeks ago. No email to me or their TA. Now they are "alarmed" to see the 0s in the grade book.
"But I was sick!"
I'm sorry they were sick, but I'm not psychic.
And yes, there are instructions in the syllabus, class website, & my "welcome to class" email saying what to do if you are sick & miss class. I only start tracking folks down if they miss an exam or 2 weeks in a row.
I got an email from a student complaining that "you said I missed class, but I've only missed one. YOU'VE canceled 3!" 1 cancelled, 1 moved online, 1 snow day.
When I explained that being late 12-15 minutes every week is the equivalent of missing 2-3 days worth of lecture, she was confused. "What do we do in the first 10 minutes of class, anyway?"
All that stuff you didn't know about.....
You mean...stuff actually happens in the first 10 minutes of class each day? Who knew?
We've had staff members who were the same way about the first 10 minutes of the work day. Or at least they tried to be that way....
Quote from: apl68 on April 24, 2024, 10:35:36 AMYou mean...stuff actually happens in the first 10 minutes of class each day? Who knew?
We've had staff members who were the same way about the first 10 minutes of the work day. Or at least they tried to be that way....
Well, nothing really gets going at the office until mid-morning anyway. Why bother showing up before then?
/snarkoff
;)
Same class as Tuesday, but today we are going on a field trip. I cave an extensive explanation of where, when, why, what, and how they needed to navigate, prepare, and conduct the lab today.
Inquiring minds want to know (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuE0a6uf3mM) what the half of the class that either didn't show or was late will do this afternoon....
I got an email from a student that basically says:
"I took your class 2 years ago. Can I get more points to raise my grade?" Plus a lengthy paragraph about how they aren't asking for anything special, but it would be great for their financial/personal/mental well-being. And they need a 3.80 to transfer to another university.
Guess what grade they earned? That's right, an A-.
I told them it was not possible, not ethical to offer more points after the class has ended, & to focus on their current classes.
Stu wrote back "Sorry, I didn't know that wasn't allowed. But that was the only quarter I got less than As in my classes."
I'm not going to reply unless they escalate.
1) Your grades in other quarters do not matter.
2) Even if it did matter, stu has never had a quarter of all As.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 25, 2024, 10:38:17 AMI got an email from a student that basically says:
"I took your class 2 years ago. Can I get more points to raise my grade?" Plus a lengthy paragraph about how they aren't asking for anything special, but it would be great for their financial/personal/mental well-being. And they need a 3.80 to transfer to another university.
Guess what grade they earned? That's right, an A-.
I told them it was not possible, not ethical to offer more points after the class has ended, & to focus on their current classes.
Stu wrote back "Sorry, I didn't know that wasn't allowed. But that was the only quarter I got less than As in my classes."
I'm not going to reply unless they escalate.
1) Your grades in other quarters do not matter.
2) Even if it did matter, stu has never had a quarter of all As.
Do you have an obligation to reply to students who are not enrolled in your classes? I'd be inclined to ignore such nonsense.
One perhaps needs to consider whether failure to respond at all might engender complaints (that might well be entertained) to adminiscritters.
I emailed their academic advisor to give them a heads-up about Stu's unethical request.
We'll see what happens next if anything.