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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: smallcleanrat on October 18, 2020, 04:26:22 PM

Title: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 18, 2020, 04:26:22 PM
Hadn't seen on on the fora yet.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: mahagonny on October 18, 2020, 07:28:58 PM
Stir the soup.

Art is damned difficult to create & maintain and romance is even harder. But they both bring rewards of incomparable quality so that's why we work at them.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: writingprof on October 18, 2020, 07:32:17 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on October 18, 2020, 07:28:58 PM
Stir the soup.

Art is damned difficult to create & maintain and romance is even harder. But they both bring rewards of incomparable quality so that's why we work at them.

After this gem, it's not clear that we need the rest of the thread!
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: dismalist on October 18, 2020, 07:53:21 PM
Been married for 33 years, to the same woman, no less. This after some years of so called dating -- we wanted to get this right.

Does that count as a relationship? :)
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: mahagonny on October 18, 2020, 08:04:20 PM
Quote from: dismalist on October 18, 2020, 07:53:21 PM
Been married for 33 years, to the same woman, no less. This after some years of so called dating -- we wanted to get this right.

Does that count as a relationship? :)

Y'all must be doing something right.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: mamselle on October 18, 2020, 09:21:47 PM
I looked at the title and thought, "Oh, yes, the former 'Lonely Hearts Club' thread," although it was always a lot more than that.

Pry got mad at me for suggesting her relationship with Hedgepig might have been dysfunctional about a year before she figured out that it was, in fact, dysfunctional. That seems to happen to me a lot, so I stopped reading it.

I also seem to have moved past any strong interest in relationships, as well...not looking, not being looked at, so equilibrium, maybe...or at least, nothing to post about!

But I still support its existence, or its descendant's existence, here.

And I wish all good thoughts to all trying to untangle, or stay tangled in, their own situations.

M.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 19, 2020, 12:03:15 AM
Been on a bit of a reading binge through books of the "personal development" variety. I'm noticing distinct differences in style between the ones written by academics (psychologists, social scientists, etc...) and the ones written by professional "life coaches" or "motivational speakers." The latter type tend more towards simplistically grand claims (with no citations), like the following:

"What percentage of shared responsibility do you have in making a relationship work? ... You have to be willing to give 100 percent with zero expectation of receiving anything in return. Only when you're willing to take 100 percent responsibility for making the relationship work will it work...If I *always* [take] 100 percent responsibility for everything I experience - completely owning all of my choices and all the ways I [respond] to whatever [happens] to me - I [hold] the power."

I've seen this advice in various forms. The main point seems to be that it's pointless to blame other people for hurting you or otherwise causing negative emotions, thoughts or behavior. You are the person ultimately in control of your own responses; you can choose not to feel hurt or not to feel angry, otherwise you are adopting a "victim mentality." Don't ask or expect anyone else to change their behavior because that is ultimately out of your control.

I'm not sure why I so often see this written in such an extreme form (i.e. you are *100%* responsible for your own thoughts and emotions; no one can *make* you think or feel a certain way). I mean, there's a lot to be said for taking ownership of how you respond to the events in your life, but making yourself 100% responsible...how realistic is that? What would that even look like?

Anyone else have opinions on this?
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: Hegemony on October 19, 2020, 02:06:02 AM
Well, clearly that claim is way oversimplified. I believe they make it because it bestows a sense of power. The disadvantage, of course, is that it also implies responsibility. "It's my fault that my husband is so abusive." It's definitely true that people in abusive relationships tend to feel as if they don't have any options, and it's good to provide them with a sense that options are indeed there: the option of not responding, and above all the option of leaving — when suitably prepared, and with appropriate precautions if the spouse is physically dangerous. But it's not just a matter of believing you have power and then presto, everything gets better. And the idea that you have to give up any expectation of getting anything in return is pure horse pucky. Dangerous horse pucky.  I think I'd throw that particular book out the window. Some popular-audience books are excellent, some are useful when understood cautiously, and some are dangerous magical thinking.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: polly_mer on October 19, 2020, 04:41:55 AM
I read a lot of advice columns.

Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 19, 2020, 12:03:15 AM
"What percentage of shared responsibility do you have in making a relationship work? ... You have to be willing to give 100 percent with zero expectation of receiving anything in return. Only when you're willing to take 100 percent responsibility for making the relationship work will it work...If I *always* [take] 100 percent responsibility for everything I experience - completely owning all of my choices and all the ways I [respond] to whatever [happens] to me - I [hold] the power."

Many to most of the letters to the advice columns, whether the writers intended the message or not, boil down to "Give me some magic words so I can make the other person do exactly what I want them to do with no further discussion or drama".  This is true for romance, friendship, and family situations.

Whether the writer is in the right or not, the hardest part seems to be to get people to believe and then act on the belief that their power is limited to their own actions and reactions.  That often limits people's power quite a bit to the options of

(1) learn to live with the behavior of others by changing one's response.  For example, someone who is always late gets left behind for being late when the group gave adequate notice.  Someone who is terrible with giving presents is politely thanked and all presents are donated or tossed.

(2) decide how much drama each round to tolerate before walking out/hanging up/otherwise disengaging, while hoping that the pattern of disengaging affects the frequency of whatever action gets the disengaging reponse.  The racist family, the insulting romantic partner, and the overly chatty neighbor are told once that the behavior is unacceptable and then one disengages every time the wrong thing is said.  One cannot stop someone from saying it, but one can decide not to stay for the whole drama.

(3) break off the relationship.  It takes two to tango.  If someone's behavior is really not acceptable, then adults can be cut out of one's life.  Small children can be taken to specialists for the parents to learn additional specific actions for options 1 and 2.

Thus, the advice isn't "Take 100% responsibility for everything in the relationship because it's all your fault".  The advice is more the Serenity Prayer: "serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference".
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: downer on October 19, 2020, 05:07:27 AM
Why do most societies in the West prize monogamy over other relationship options? And not just serial monogamy, but a relationship with just one person for most of one's life. And does that make any sense now that we live so long?

There is the argument that it is better to have that arrangement for one's offspring. But I'm not sure there's much evidence for that.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: polly_mer on October 19, 2020, 05:16:12 AM
Quote from: downer on October 19, 2020, 05:07:27 AM
Why do most societies in the West prize monogamy over other relationship options? And not just serial monogamy, but a relationship with just one person for most of one's life. And does that make any sense now that we live so long?

There is the argument that it is better to have that arrangement for one's offspring. But I'm not sure there's much evidence for that.

You are a highly educated person with access to the internet and likely access to the scholarly literature in sociology and anthropology.  People study these questions using good scientific research techniques.  Treat it like a literature review project and get back to us with the answers based on the evidence from the academics and other scholars who work very hard in these areas.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: marshwiggle on October 19, 2020, 06:00:20 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 19, 2020, 12:03:15 AM

I'm not sure why I so often see this written in such an extreme form (i.e. you are *100%* responsible for your own thoughts and emotions; no one can *make* you think or feel a certain way). I mean, there's a lot to be said for taking ownership of how you respond to the events in your life, but making yourself 100% responsible...how realistic is that? What would that even look like?

Anyone else have opinions on this?

I can give an example from a different context: student evaluations.

For years, I have given my own extensive evaluations to students in addition to the ones mandated by the university because,as I telly my students, I really want to know what they think. One student came to me one time (who had been in several courses with me and so had seen several of them) and I asked why my questions were like this:

When you don't come to class, it is usually because:

The student said, "Why don't you ask if it's just because they're lazy? Why do you only give options that are your fault?"

I explained that the only things that I can actually attempt to change are things that are under my control. So student laziness, even if it's a real problem, would only be worth considering to protect my own ego. If I actually want to try to change things for the better, I have to consider only those things that I actually control.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: mahagonny on October 19, 2020, 06:13:54 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 19, 2020, 12:03:15 AM
Been on a bit of a reading binge through books of the "personal development" variety. I'm noticing distinct differences in style between the ones written by academics (psychologists, social scientists, etc...) and the ones written by professional "life coaches" or "motivational speakers." The latter type tend more towards simplistically grand claims (with no citations), like the following:

"What percentage of shared responsibility do you have in making a relationship work? ... You have to be willing to give 100 percent with zero expectation of receiving anything in return. Only when you're willing to take 100 percent responsibility for making the relationship work will it work...If I *always* [take] 100 percent responsibility for everything I experience - completely owning all of my choices and all the ways I [respond] to whatever [happens] to me - I [hold] the power."

I've seen this advice in various forms. The main point seems to be that it's pointless to blame other people for hurting you or otherwise causing negative emotions, thoughts or behavior. You are the person ultimately in control of your own responses; you can choose not to feel hurt or not to feel angry, otherwise you are adopting a "victim mentality." Don't ask or expect anyone else to change their behavior because that is ultimately out of your control.

I'm not sure why I so often see this written in such an extreme form (i.e. you are *100%* responsible for your own thoughts and emotions; no one can *make* you think or feel a certain way). I mean, there's a lot to be said for taking ownership of how you respond to the events in your life, but making yourself 100% responsible...how realistic is that? What would that even look like?

Anyone else have opinions on this?

Yeah. It's a very liberating thing to hear, for about 30 minutes. by the time you try to put it into practice you realize is not something you can use. Your emotions are the most powerful thing in your life. More powerful than any enemy you're likely to have (unless the enemy is  a murderer.)
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: marshwiggle on October 19, 2020, 06:31:43 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on October 19, 2020, 06:13:54 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 19, 2020, 12:03:15 AM
I'm not sure why I so often see this written in such an extreme form (i.e. you are *100%* responsible for your own thoughts and emotions; no one can *make* you think or feel a certain way). I mean, there's a lot to be said for taking ownership of how you respond to the events in your life, but making yourself 100% responsible...how realistic is that? What would that even look like?

Anyone else have opinions on this?

Yeah. It's a very liberating thing to hear, for about 30 minutes. by the time you try to put it into practice you realize is not something you can use.

I think the point is to realize the power you don't have, which is to change other people.

Quote
Your emotions are the most powerful thing in your life. More powerful than any enemy you're likely to have (unless the enemy is  a murderer.)

I'm not sure if this is what you're getting at, but nagging, begging, pleading, and scolding rarely produce long-term change in other people. They may result in short-term compliance, just to avoid conflict, but the moment the person is not under surveillance, their behaviour will likely revert to what it was previously. It is even possible that long term resentment will build up which will eventually produce even more extreme behaviour in the opposite direction.


Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: mahagonny on October 19, 2020, 06:44:28 AM
Quote
I think the point is to realize the power you don't have, which is to change other people.
Agreed, that part is valuable, but

Quote
Your emotions are the most powerful thing in your life. More powerful than any enemy you're likely to have (unless the enemy is  a murderer.)

I'm not sure if this is what you're getting at, but nagging, begging, pleading, and scolding rarely produce long-term change in other people. They may result in short-term compliance, just to avoid conflict, but the moment the person is not under surveillance, their behaviour will likely revert to what it was previously. It is even possible that long term resentment will build up which will eventually produce even more extreme behaviour in the opposite direction.
[/quote]

Not exactly. What I was getting at was that your emotions are not like a faucet that you can turn on and off at will or regulate through choicel. They run too deep for that. Sometimes, in spite of your best calculation, the emotion you have after experiencing something is not what you expected. At other times we haven't acted because we are conflicted, not because we are lazy or helpless or blaming others. So a person saying 'you can take control of your life' is pretty obvious already in the sense that major changes can be enacted.

Advice columns may be fun to read. A good columnist doesn't let his or her frustration show. If they do, they may be the ones who need counsel.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 19, 2020, 06:55:24 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on October 19, 2020, 06:13:54 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 19, 2020, 12:03:15 AM
Been on a bit of a reading binge through books of the "personal development" variety. I'm noticing distinct differences in style between the ones written by academics (psychologists, social scientists, etc...) and the ones written by professional "life coaches" or "motivational speakers." The latter type tend more towards simplistically grand claims (with no citations), like the following:

"What percentage of shared responsibility do you have in making a relationship work? ... You have to be willing to give 100 percent with zero expectation of receiving anything in return. Only when you're willing to take 100 percent responsibility for making the relationship work will it work...If I *always* [take] 100 percent responsibility for everything I experience - completely owning all of my choices and all the ways I [respond] to whatever [happens] to me - I [hold] the power."

I've seen this advice in various forms. The main point seems to be that it's pointless to blame other people for hurting you or otherwise causing negative emotions, thoughts or behavior. You are the person ultimately in control of your own responses; you can choose not to feel hurt or not to feel angry, otherwise you are adopting a "victim mentality." Don't ask or expect anyone else to change their behavior because that is ultimately out of your control.

I'm not sure why I so often see this written in such an extreme form (i.e. you are *100%* responsible for your own thoughts and emotions; no one can *make* you think or feel a certain way). I mean, there's a lot to be said for taking ownership of how you respond to the events in your life, but making yourself 100% responsible...how realistic is that? What would that even look like?

Anyone else have opinions on this?

Yeah. It's a very liberating thing to hear, for about 30 minutes. by the time you try to put it into practice you realize is not something you can use. Your emotions are the most powerful thing in your life. More powerful than any enemy you're likely to have (unless the enemy is  a murderer.)

Yeah, what I don't think is warranted is rolling up emotions, thoughts, and actions all up in a single ball of "response you choose." Deciding your actions is not on the same level of difficulty as deciding your thoughts or your emotions. Emotions and thoughts have an automatic component, more directly than is the case with chosen behaviors.

There is a form of psychotherapy called Acceptance and Commitment Therapy which I've come to appreciate as actually acknowledging that some thoughts and emotions are just going to happen. Attempting to control them or force them to change by sheer willpower often won't work and is likely to increase your distress rather than alleviate it. The kind of skills to focus on involve observing your thoughts and emotions so you can decide what actions to take.

Walking away from a relationship is an action taken to prevent being hurt again. It doesn't change the fact you were hurt in the first place. And feelings like hurt and anger can serve an important purpose; they can tell you something isn't right.

And, no, control of another person's behavior isn't in your power, but influence very well could be. There are other ways to communicate outside of nagging, begging, or scolding.

The author used an example of a friend frequently complaining of the ways his wife made him unhappy. Author's advice to friend was to make a list of things he *appreciates* about his wife instead of focusing on the negatives. And of course the book example has as a happy ending. But the magnitude of those negatives isn't even hinted at; I suppose the reader is meant to imagine relatively minor annoyances like "takes too long getting ready" rather than something more serious like "She's extremely paranoid that I will cheat on her, so she's sending me messages every half hour demanding to know where I am and what I'm doing."

If the negatives are minor, then the message "Don't sweat the small stuff" can apply. But the effects of something major probably won't be alleviated simply by choosing to stop dwelling on it.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: marshwiggle on October 19, 2020, 07:23:23 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on October 19, 2020, 06:44:28 AM
What I was getting at was that your emotions are not like a faucet that you can turn on and off at will or regulate through choice. They run too deep for that. Sometimes, in spite of your best calculation, the emotion you have after experiencing something is not what you expected.

Absolutely.

Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 19, 2020, 06:55:24 AM

The author used an example of a friend frequently complaining of the ways his wife made him unhappy. Author's advice to friend was to make a list of things he *appreciates* about his wife instead of focusing on the negatives. And of course the book example has as a happy ending. But the magnitude of those negatives isn't even hinted at; I suppose the reader is meant to imagine relatively minor annoyances like "takes too long getting ready" rather than something more serious like "She's extremely paranoid that I will cheat on her, so she's sending me messages every half hour demanding to know where I am and what I'm doing."

If the negatives are minor, then the message "Don't sweat the small stuff" can apply. But the effects of something major probably won't be alleviated simply by choosing to stop dwelling on it.

I would say this is what defines the difference between "minor" and "major" conflicts. The question to ask is whether you could endure this situation indefinitely; if so, it's minor. If, on the other hand, you could not put up with this indefinitely, (with the real possibility of it never changing), then it is major, and walking away has to be seriously considered.

Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 19, 2020, 07:30:17 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 19, 2020, 07:23:23 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on October 19, 2020, 06:44:28 AM
What I was getting at was that your emotions are not like a faucet that you can turn on and off at will or regulate through choice. They run too deep for that. Sometimes, in spite of your best calculation, the emotion you have after experiencing something is not what you expected.

Absolutely.

Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 19, 2020, 06:55:24 AM

The author used an example of a friend frequently complaining of the ways his wife made him unhappy. Author's advice to friend was to make a list of things he *appreciates* about his wife instead of focusing on the negatives. And of course the book example has as a happy ending. But the magnitude of those negatives isn't even hinted at; I suppose the reader is meant to imagine relatively minor annoyances like "takes too long getting ready" rather than something more serious like "She's extremely paranoid that I will cheat on her, so she's sending me messages every half hour demanding to know where I am and what I'm doing."

If the negatives are minor, then the message "Don't sweat the small stuff" can apply. But the effects of something major probably won't be alleviated simply by choosing to stop dwelling on it.

I would say this is what defines the difference between "minor" and "major" conflicts. The question to ask is whether you could endure this situation indefinitely; if so, it's minor. If, on the other hand, you could not put up with this indefinitely, (with the real possibility of it never changing), then it is major, and walking away has to be seriously considered.

Agreed. Major and minor problems are in the eye of the beholder.

I meant from the perspective of beholder: minor things are irritations/annoyances/gripes, major things are causing high degrees of stress.

But walking away is an action taken to change your situation. It's not necessarily changing how you feel about whatever it was that motivated you to walk away.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: polly_mer on October 20, 2020, 06:42:48 AM
I guess my question on the feelings topic is: And?

Yes, feelings are like sensors: one should pay attention to the information and take appropriate action, even if that action is mostly monitoring the situation to see what happens next.  Sometimes, sensors get out of whack and need to be recalibrated before they are again trustworthy, which in the feelings world translates to getting outside perspective and possibly medication/medical treatment to help recalibrate.

Years ago, someone likened being trapped as an adjunct to having sprained an ankle and then refusing to do anything except lie on the ground, clutching the ankle and crying.  While that's a perfectly fine response in the moment, continuing to do that for weeks and even years only hurts the person who refuses to move beyond the immediate feelings. 

Similar situations occur frequently with people who get lost in their feelings and don't make the effort to get help to recalibrate.  Just like physical therapy for the ankle, it's likely that getting to a better place eventually can involve additional pain now.  People who focus only on avoiding all pain tend to get trapped while those who acknowledge the pain and take actions that will help (including medical treatment as necessary to recalibrate) tend to get better, but it is a painful process.

Yes, being hurt is being hurt.  However, focusing on the hurt instead of the lessons learned and the process to get to a non-hurt place tends to trap people, especially if the feelings are very strong.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: mahagonny on October 20, 2020, 06:52:36 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on October 20, 2020, 06:42:48 AM
I guess my question on the feelings topic is: And?

Yes, feelings are like sensors: one should pay attention to the information and take appropriate action, even if that action is mostly monitoring the situation to see what happens next.  Sometimes, sensors get out of whack and need to be recalibrated before they are again trustworthy, which in the feelings world translates to getting outside perspective and possibly medication/medical treatment to help recalibrate.

Years ago, someone likened being trapped as an adjunct to having sprained an ankle and then refusing to do anything except lie on the ground, clutching the ankle and crying.  While that's a perfectly fine response in the moment, continuing to do that for weeks and even years only hurts the person who refuses to move beyond the immediate feelings. 

Similar situations occur frequently with people who get lost in their feelings and don't make the effort to get help to recalibrate.  Just like physical therapy for the ankle, it's likely that getting to a better place eventually can involve additional pain now.  People who focus only on avoiding all pain tend to get trapped while those who acknowledge the pain and take actions that will help (including medical treatment as necessary to recalibrate) tend to get better, but it is a painful process.

Yes, being hurt is being hurt.  However, focusing on the hurt instead of the lessons learned and the process to get to a non-hurt place tends to trap people, especially if the feelings are very strong.

We know all this already. The problem with the adjunct discussion was people's complicity in the widespread act of giving up on making college teaching jobs attractive enough to be recommendable.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: marshwiggle on October 20, 2020, 07:26:18 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on October 20, 2020, 06:52:36 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on October 20, 2020, 06:42:48 AM
Years ago, someone likened being trapped as an adjunct to having sprained an ankle and then refusing to do anything except lie on the ground, clutching the ankle and crying.  While that's a perfectly fine response in the moment, continuing to do that for weeks and even years only hurts the person who refuses to move beyond the immediate feelings. 


We know all this already. The problem with the adjunct discussion was people's complicity in the widespread act of giving up on making college teaching jobs attractive enough to be recommendable.

But surely there is much more chance of changing one person in a difficult relationship than changing the policies (and attitudes) of an entire institution. If staying and fighting in a terrible adjunct situation is always a reasonable choice, then staying and fighting in a bad relationship with one person has got to be at least as reasonable a choice.

There are two different "problems" to be considered, (or two facets of a single problem). How institutions treat adjuncts is related but distinct from how a frustrated adjunct can respond. If refusing to admit that some institutions treat adjuncts badly is wrong, then so is refusing to advise adjuncts to consider leaving when the situation is intolerable.

(I realize this is getting off-topic, but the similarity of many life situations to relationship situations reflects the fact that  they ultimately are governed by human nature, with the same limitations and consequences.)
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 20, 2020, 07:36:47 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on October 20, 2020, 06:42:48 AM
I guess my question on the feelings topic is: And?

...........................................................................

Yes, being hurt is being hurt.  However, focusing on the hurt instead of the lessons learned and the process to get to a non-hurt place tends to trap people, especially if the feelings are very strong.

I guess my answer to "And?" wouldn't have much to do with the points you make in your post. You're talking about not dwelling in hurt feelings indefinitely.

What I was saying is more in response to people who insist that you not have certain feelings in the first place. It's the difference between someone advising you to consider why you're afraid of something and to think of how to face and overcome your fear vs. someone who's oh-so-helpful advice is "You're afraid? Well, don't be!"

It's the difference between advising someone on how to manage their emotions vs. someone who insists on "controlling" emotions (shutting it on-and-off at will as in mahagonny's analogy).

There's a therapeutic model for trauma recovery which includes a stage of "mourning" that precedes intensive work on developing effective coping skills so a person can move forward with their life. It involves acknowledging how trauma has affected you; it can help you understand why you have been struggling in the way that you have. The point is not to wallow in hurt, the point is to process what has happened to you. Too many people are told to just "get over it" and are accused of wallowing if they spend any time at all in a "mourning" stage.

Quote from: polly_mer on October 20, 2020, 06:42:48 AM
Similar situations occur frequently with people who get lost in their feelings and don't make the effort to get help to recalibrate.  Just like physical therapy for the ankle, it's likely that getting to a better place eventually can involve additional pain now.  People who focus only on avoiding all pain tend to get trapped while those who acknowledge the pain and take actions that will help (including medical treatment as necessary to recalibrate) tend to get better, but it is a painful process.

I completely agree with this; I think we are making the same point.

I think the people who advocate "control" are the ones trying to avoid uncomfortable emotions.

What point did you think I was trying to make?



Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: marshwiggle on October 20, 2020, 08:24:50 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 20, 2020, 07:36:47 AM

There's a therapeutic model for trauma recovery which includes a stage of "mourning" that precedes intensive work on developing effective coping skills so a person can move forward with their life. It involves acknowledging how trauma has affected you; it can help you understand why you have been struggling in the way that you have. The point is not to wallow in hurt, the point is to process what has happened to you. Too many people are told to just "get over it" and are accused of wallowing if they spend any time at all in a "mourning" stage.


I'm not sure if I'm getting this correctly, but "moving forward" often has to happen before the stage of mourning is complete.  A parent whose spouse has died who has small children to raise needs to keep functioning for them, regardless of how long it takes to get over the grief.

I would imagine sometimes people will, perhaps insensitively, speak of "wallowing" to refer to the need to get on with practical aspects of life, rather than dealing with the longer term emotional pain explicitly.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 20, 2020, 08:41:42 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 20, 2020, 08:24:50 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 20, 2020, 07:36:47 AM

There's a therapeutic model for trauma recovery which includes a stage of "mourning" that precedes intensive work on developing effective coping skills so a person can move forward with their life. It involves acknowledging how trauma has affected you; it can help you understand why you have been struggling in the way that you have. The point is not to wallow in hurt, the point is to process what has happened to you. Too many people are told to just "get over it" and are accused of wallowing if they spend any time at all in a "mourning" stage.


I'm not sure if I'm getting this correctly, but "moving forward" often has to happen before the stage of mourning is complete.  A parent whose spouse has died who has small children to raise needs to keep functioning for them, regardless of how long it takes to get over the grief.

I would imagine sometimes people will, perhaps insensitively, speak of "wallowing" to refer to the need to get on with practical aspects of life, rather than dealing with the longer term emotional pain explicitly.

Ok, maybe I didn't describe it well. No, the expectation is not that you *completely* process all your emotions before participating in the day-to-day activities and responsibilities of your life. I don't think the stages are meant to be as discrete as that.

But getting through whatever actions you need to take to fulfill your responsibilities isn't necessarily the same as "moving forward" in the mental/emotional/spiritual sense. I think it's more akin to the "fake it 'til you make it" approach; you're going through the motions so things get done, but a life of simply going through the motions is not your ultimate goal.

And, even if people are talking about the *practical* aspects of life when they say "stop wallowing," whether or not their input is actually helpful seems iffy. Maybe you're talking to someone who will benefit from a swift kick in the pants; but if someone is already doing their best while struggling to function, words like these can be more like pouring salt in a wound.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: the_geneticist on October 20, 2020, 10:30:07 AM
I love an article I read once about "training a spouse like a wild animal.  You can't force an elephant to hold still and lift it's foot, but you can reward behaviors that are close to that skill until it will lift it's foot when asked.  Yelling at the elephant or scolding it won't help.  Being mad if the first attempt isn't perfect won't help either.  Reward the steps towards the goal, not just the final skill.
Similarly, if your spouse/child/friend is learning to cook and burns the rice you should say "thank you for cooking dinner".  They know it's burned.  If you get upset and decide the best solution is to NEVER trust them to cook rice again, well you've just trained them that you'll take over that task.

I'm also a fan of the "what are you willing to tolerate as part of living together?".  I know it drives Mr. Dr. Geneticist bonkers that I leave tea mugs and books all over the house, but he really appreciates that I vacuum & mow the lawn.  Similarly, I know he hates to fold laundry.  I'm happy to do more of the laundry since he does more of the cooking & cleaning the kitchen.  Our house doesn't look like a magazine, but we are quite happy.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: mahagonny on October 20, 2020, 04:57:38 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 20, 2020, 08:41:42 AM

And, even if people are talking about the *practical* aspects of life when they say "stop wallowing," whether or not their input is actually helpful seems iffy. Maybe you're talking to someone who will benefit from a swift kick in the pants; but if someone is already doing their best while struggling to function, words like these can be more like pouring salt in a wound.

The person giving you advice has needs too.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 20, 2020, 06:48:27 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on October 20, 2020, 04:57:38 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 20, 2020, 08:41:42 AM

And, even if people are talking about the *practical* aspects of life when they say "stop wallowing," whether or not their input is actually helpful seems iffy. Maybe you're talking to someone who will benefit from a swift kick in the pants; but if someone is already doing their best while struggling to function, words like these can be more like pouring salt in a wound.

The person giving you advice has needs too.

That doesn't really change the fact that if someone is already doing the best they know how, simply telling them to "choose to do better" isn't going to help very much.

More effective to have a discussion about *how* to change things for the better.

Although, in my personal experience, I hear this kind of thing much more from people who have very little to do with my life.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 22, 2020, 08:38:42 PM
Well, here's a situation I'm not sure how to respond to.

I have a hand injury and my boyfriend has an unconscious habit of grabbing my hand to hold whenever we are in close proximity. I asked him to stop doing that until my hand is healed, because when he does this I get sharp, shooting pains. He said that he would, but...still does it. A lot. And it's been months.

It happens multiple times a day, every day. It doesn't seem to matter how many times I say "Ow! Please don't!" He will say he's sorry, but nothing changes.

I wasn't really upset by it at first, because I know reaching for my hand is a habit he doesn't always realize he is doing. But after several months it doesn't seem to be happening any less frequently at all (so it's not like he forgets once in a while; it's every day).

I know it's pretty common for one partner to have a habit the other doesn't like, and at some point it becomes clear that habit isn't likely to ever stop. The other partner either learns to live with it or continues nagging. If this were something like leaving the cap off the toothpaste or forgetting to put laundry in the hamper, I could learn to live with it. But this is something that causes me physical pain.

I started keeping some distance between us during times he is most likely to reach for my hand (e.g. sitting on the couch together), but he felt hurt by this. So, I started tucking the bad hand behind my back, but he will reach behind my back to get to it. Another possible solution (at least for the couch) is to swap sides, so my good hand will be the closest to him. But he likes routine too much and doesn't want to sit in a different spot.

I guess I could just put up with it until the hand is better, but I think incidents like this are slowing down the healing. I do feel hurt that this doesn't seem important enough to remember after I've pleaded with him so many times.

Would this bother anyone else?
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: Hegemony on October 23, 2020, 12:12:37 AM
I think you are perhaps less bothered by this than you should be. Every time your boyfriend forgets and hurts you, he should be abject with a regret and apologies. And he should be saying, both out loud and to himself, "I have to figure out a way not to do this any more!  I am going to try a variety of strategies to try to remember."

By contrast, what he is doing is sulking and trying to control you through manipulation and emotion so that you can't even protect yourself by sitting further away.

And he reaches behind your back to grab your hand?  What rational human being wouldn't say to himself, "Why is she holding her hand behind her back? Oh! I remember! Her hand is injured! I really need to demonstrate to her that I will remember, so she doesn't feel the need to protect herself so adamantly."

What is his reaction to all this?  A kind of "Well, I try to remember, but you know how I am" type excuse?  Or even a "It can't be that bad" response?  Because he ought to be a lot sorrier than he is.  Because it looks very much like he values his demand to have a hand to hold way above your need to protect yourself from pain. And if he's gaslighting you into believing it's just Ol' Bumbling Forgetful Boyfriend, even more so. A good guy would man up and take responsibility here.

My reaction, which would not be optimum, but at least would be sub-optimum in a different way, would be to bite his head off next time he tried it. " WILL YOU %$^&$ing STOP HURTING ME? You'll have to leave now. No, I mean it. I cannot take this one more time. You can come back tomorrow and try again. Right, goodnight. I mean it, goodnight."  Because, basically, he is training you to behave as if it doesn't really matter.  The only consequence he experiences for violating your boundaries and causing you physical pain is a little chiding and nagging from him. And that doesn't bother him much. We know it doesn't bother him much, because he prefers to let it happen as long as he gets to take your hand whenever he wants to.  Therefore the consequences need to escalate.  They need to escalate until he'd rather show some consideration for you than suffer the consequences any longer.

But I wonder if there's a lot in this guy who can't stop causing you pain. What would you think of a guy who did this to a child? Who kept hurting her despite her continuing to feel pain and pleading with him not to?  Would that be a guy whose sense of consideration you could respect?
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: polly_mer on October 23, 2020, 06:40:59 AM
1)  Why has your hand been hurt for months?  What kind of care are you getting?

2) Why is it OK for him to be repeatedly hurt by the cat per the post on another thread?

3) Why are you even together if neither of you cares enough about the other to make minor adjustments that would result in less physical pain all around?

Again, I have to wonder why feelings seem to be important and yet nothing changes.

You may not want to be told to make better choices, but, damn, it seems so easy to fix some of these things. 

Someone who won't sit on the other side of the couch for a while doesn't care enough to matter.

Someone who won't deal with the cat to either get it to stop attacking everyone who lives in the household or send the cat to a new home also doesn't care enough.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 23, 2020, 08:18:45 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on October 23, 2020, 06:40:59 AM
1)  Why has your hand been hurt for months?  What kind of care are you getting?

2) Why is it OK for him to be repeatedly hurt by the cat per the post on another thread?

3) Why are you even together if neither of you cares enough about the other to make minor adjustments that would result in less physical pain all around?

Again, I have to wonder why feelings seem to be important and yet nothing changes.

You may not want to be told to make better choices, but, damn, it seems so easy to fix some of these things. 

Someone who won't sit on the other side of the couch for a while doesn't care enough to matter.

Someone who won't deal with the cat to either get it to stop attacking everyone who lives in the household or send the cat to a new home also doesn't care enough.

I never said I don't want to be told to make better choices, especially if specific actions are being advised. I certainly value action-based advice.

What I was objecting to earlier was being told to choose better emotions or choose not to have certain thoughts, because altering thoughts and emotions is a lot more complex than altering a behavior, and people who push the "choose how to feel" advice rarely seem to acknowledge this.

1) I've had some appointments at a hand rehab clinic; they taught me some exercises I could do at home and gave me some anti-inflammatory treatment. They told me this is something I should expect to take months to heal; in the meantime, go easy on it and use ice when needed. They also gave me a brace, but I'm supposed to limit how much I wear it. It's been gradually getting better, but can still flare and certain movements are still painful.

2) RE: the cat. The cat doesn't attack *everyone*; the cat attacks my boyfriend in ways he never does to me. I did take action on this; training the cat has been a long-term project for me. I read a lot of cat behavior articles for advice on how to reduce the nipping. I went through a list of ideas to try, experimenting to see what helped, reporting results to boyfriend so he could adjust his interactions with the cat more effectively. He ignored a lot of my advice, so I'm not sure what else I can do for him.

I told him how effective it has been for me to hiss at the cat when he is being too rough, but boyfriend says he feels weird doing that (I suggested downloading the sound of a cat's hiss onto his phone and using that; boyfriend didn't like that idea either). I bought some bitter spray specifically sold to get pets to stop biting stuff. The spray has worked well to deter the cat's chewing on wires; I suggested boyfriend either put some on his feet or spray around his work area (the scent is also aversive) since the cat is most likely to go for him when he is at his desk working. I repeatedly told boyfriend that his frequent use of his foot as a lure when playing with the cat is only teaching kitty that feet are acceptable targets; he'd say, "yeah, yeah...ok" but kept doing it. I bought cat toys designed to be thrown and chased, so boyfriend had a means to divert the cat away from his feet; this worked well until the cat eventually got bored with the toys. Best bet at this point is using a can of compressed air (which coincidentally sounds something like a cat's hiss); the sound gets him to back off. I told boyfriend he has to use it consistently, every single time the cat bites his foot, until the attacks stop; for some reason, boyfriend does not do this.

I even taught the cat the "leave it" command so we had another tool to stop him from chewing anything he wasn't supposed to; told boyfriend to keep a packet of treats near his work area so he could continue to reinforce "leave it" outside of training sessions. He only did this sporadically; I don't think he does it at all anymore. I keep telling him the cat won't learn unless he is consistent. He keeps saying "ok" while continuing business as usual.

When boyfriend has Zoom meetings, I bring the cat to my room or play with him to make sure he leaves boyfriend alone. The cat is much gentler with me, probably because I've been consistent with the 'no biting' rule.

I do care about this issue. Every time something didn't work, I didn't just shrug my shoulders and say "oh, well". I tried something else. But I can't run interference 24-7; boyfriend needs to put the techniques to use if he wants the benefits.

I wouldn't consider rehoming the cat unless I thought we had exhausted all other options. And I can't believe we've exhausted all other options when boyfriend is only applying potential solutions half-heartedly.

3) We are together because these issues don't define our entire relationship. The majority of the time, he makes a sincere effort to hear me out when I say something is bothering me. He has made many adjustments (and kept it up consistently) regarding behaviors that inadvertently caused me physical discomfort or emotional hurt. I've tried to do the same for him (and he acknowledges his appreciation). He's been a huge source of moral support while I've been going through my various health issues; he says he appreciates the moral support and faith I showed in him when he decided to quit work to retrain for a new career path. We do care about each other, but each of us still has our blind spots and this can lead to frustrating situations.

Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: fishbrains on October 23, 2020, 08:50:28 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 23, 2020, 08:18:45 AM

I never said I don't want to be told to make better choices, especially if specific actions are being advised. I certainly value action-based advice.


Your "boyfriend" has hurt you. Repeatedly. On purpose. That's not normal. That's not acceptable. And you should notice how you dance so very lightly around his "feelings" and "routines." You need to leave or you need to get him out of your house.

And yes: This is much, much easier for me to say than for you to do.

Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: Caracal on October 23, 2020, 08:57:40 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 22, 2020, 08:38:42 PM


I know it's pretty common for one partner to have a habit the other doesn't like, and at some point it becomes clear that habit isn't likely to ever stop. The other partner either learns to live with it or continues nagging. If this were something like leaving the cap off the toothpaste or forgetting to put laundry in the hamper, I could learn to live with it. But this is something that causes me physical pain.



I think that's the correct read. And Hegemony is right that it would be one thing if his reaction was to be very apologetic and annoyed at himself for forgetting. I'm a fidgety person and often when I'm watching tv with my wife she'll say "stop shaking your leg, you're driving me crazy!" However, while I try to remember not to do that, it's just annoying to her, not painful. If it was causing her intense physical pain for some reason, I'd try a lot harder not to do it, and if I found that I really couldn't stop, I'd go sit on the chair or something.

The other thing is that my wife would insist I either be able to stop or go sit somewhere else. It actually can be hard in a relationship to consistently be considerate of your partner. I fail all the time at it. In a functional relationship, however, both people can point out when the other person is screwing up and hurting them. That might lead to an argument or a fight, but then you can figure out what's going on and how to deal with it.

I'm concerned that you don't seem to feel like you can do that. You said in another thread that you had determined you couldn't rely on your partner in a mental health emergency, but didn't seem to feel like you could  address this with him. If you don't think you can trust your partner and you can't talk to them about that concern, that's not good.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: AvidReader on October 23, 2020, 09:53:25 AM
Your partner's preferred routines and hurt feelings are not more important than your own health, physical or otherwise. You equate this to leaving the cap off the toothpaste. That is annoying and messy and 100% worth living with for the right person. This is not the same at all. Ideally, he should change his behavior much as Caracal describes. You can't make him do that, but in a healthy relationship, you should be able to explain your own conditions: "I'm sorry you miss sitting next to me, but I need to sit over here to protect my hand so it can heal." [optional: "I can't wait until it is better! I miss holding your hand."]

It's a huge red flag to me that you can't even switch sides of the couch. Keeping you safe and comfortable should not be worth less than his general preferences. I like "my spots" a little obsessively, but I would generally move out of any of them not just for my partner, but for any random acquaintance whose physical discomfort could be alleviated by occupying one of my preferred spaces. Wouldn't you?

AR.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 23, 2020, 04:43:18 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on October 23, 2020, 12:12:37 AM
I think you are perhaps less bothered by this than you should be. Every time your boyfriend forgets and hurts you, he should be abject with a regret and apologies. And he should be saying, both out loud and to himself, "I have to figure out a way not to do this any more!  I am going to try a variety of strategies to try to remember."
..........................................
What is his reaction to all this?  A kind of "Well, I try to remember, but you know how I am" type excuse?  Or even a "It can't be that bad" response?  Because he ought to be a lot sorrier than he is.  Because it looks very much like he values his demand to have a hand to hold way above your need to protect yourself from pain. And if he's gaslighting you into believing it's just Ol' Bumbling Forgetful Boyfriend, even more so. A good guy would man up and take responsibility here.
..........................................

This is the way I used to feel. He does seem to genuinely feel bad whenever he forgets, so I couldn't understand why he still does it after so many reminders. I have confronted him about this (perhaps not quite as strongly as you suggest) and asked him why he doesn't care enough to remember. His response is that he does care; that just because he doesn't remember doesn't mean he doesn't care (I'm hearing this from a lot of the people in my life).

The reason I've toned down my judgment on this is the responses I've been getting when raising this issue in therapy. People have been sympathetic as to how frustrating the situation must be for me, but the advice centered mostly on avoiding "distorted" thinking.

"Are you considering the relationship as a whole or are you only thinking about the negatives? What about the positives?"
"Be aware you're not a mind reader. You don't know if your judgment of his intentions is accurate."
"Thinking someone 'should' behave in a certain way may not be very effective. You can't control other people's behavior, so you may constantly be frustrated that other people are not as they 'should' be."

One of the other patients in the group said he felt bad for my boyfriend. "He really, really shouldn't be doing that, but I can sympathize." He told a story of a buddy of his who was part of a group he regularly plays soccer with. The buddy had a shoulder injury and the group of guys were in the habit of using shoulder pats as encouragement or in celebration of a good play. This buddy asked the guys not to do that to him, because it was too painful, but many of the guys would repeatedly forget and give him a shoulder pat anyway. This other patient said he always felt bad when he realized he had just caused his friend pain, but it was such a habitual act that he continued to forget himself. When his friend had gotten fed up, he started charging everyone $2 for every shoulder pat. Apparently that was what it took to get them to stop (although some guys got into the $20+ range before it finally sunk in).

Other people in the group (including the therapist leading the group) thought this was a good solution to try. I was thinking that my pain should have been enough incentive for him to stop on his own. I shouldn't have to add extrinsic carrots or sticks for something like this. But I was reminded when realities outside of your control don't match your expectations, you can only change your expectations, not your reality.

I communicated with a couples counselor through a telehealth session and asked if he thought something like this was a red flag for larger issues. All he said was "That's up to you and what you feel you can and cannot accept." I found this advice too vague to be helpful.

Caracal, I was profoundly shaken by his lack of response during my mental health crisis. I'll probably post on that here at some point. But again, I wasn't getting much sense from therapy that even this was a clear indicator to walk away from the relationship. I've been encouraged to work on better communication and finding ways for his needs to be met as well as mine. I want to be fair to him: I don't think this was indifference so much as being stressed, burnt out, and overwhelmed to the point of shutting down. But I'm still not over it.

We're going to be having some difficult conversations in the near future.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 27, 2020, 08:18:25 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on October 23, 2020, 06:40:59 AM
.......
2) Why is it OK for him to be repeatedly hurt by the cat per the post on another thread?

3) Why are you even together if neither of you cares enough about the other to make minor adjustments that would result in less physical pain all around?

Again, I have to wonder why feelings seem to be important and yet nothing changes.

You may not want to be told to make better choices, but, damn, it seems so easy to fix some of these things. 

...........

Someone who won't deal with the cat to either get it to stop attacking everyone who lives in the household or send the cat to a new home also doesn't care enough.

Hi, polly_mer.

Revisiting the cat thing after having a check-in conversation with my boyfriend. Wanted to see 1) how much the biting was bothering him lately and 2) whether there was anything else he wanted me to do to help. He said it was annoying but that he hadn't really been using any of the suggestions I researched much. He's decided to try the compressed air more frequently.

I was a bit taken aback by this part of your post, because several of my cat forum posts were asking advice on how to deal with the kitten's nipping habit. I tried the different pieces of advice I got there until I found some that worked for us. I was also told that 1) the nipping behavior was normal for his age and 2) his urges to do this would subside as he matured. If I had gotten any sense from the thread that I was being an irresponsible cat owner, I would have paid attention to any corrective advice.

What was the "easy fix" to "deal with the cat" that you thought I had neglected? Why did you get the sense I didn't care about this? If I didn't care, why would I have bothered to ask for advice on the cat thread?

Also, we both agreed to adopt the cat. Doesn't that make both of us responsible for him? Your post makes it sound like the cat's behavior is all on me. Why?
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: Hegemony on November 01, 2020, 07:18:28 PM
If he wants the cat to stop trying to chomp him, he can try some of the remedies; or he can decide they're not worth it and he'll continue to be chomped.

I see a similarity here in that this man does not want to alter his behavior in order to stop something unpleasant from happening. For him, it's all on the other entity (cat, human) to change the behavior (except not when the change inconveniences him).

You're doing a whole lot of work in this relationship, Smallcleanrat. You're with someone whose modus operandi in relationships is letting other beings do the work. As for why he's this way, why he is not more flexible — it doesn't matter. If doesn't matter if he has the best intentions in the world. He's still hurting you. Many people get away with highway robbery because they "have the best intentions." It's still highway robbery. There is no moral obligation on your part to find it acceptable, just because he has "good intentions."

So there are two ways this could go. The first is that you could show him that you absolutely will not put up with this. Even if he sulks and gets all shirty and emotional. That's typically how the people with "good intentions" react. They have a big sulky passive-aggressive hissy fit when you set boundaries, like that you will not sit near him because he keeps hurting you. They lob all kinds of excuses and manipulative self-pity at you.  This is where you refuse to let their manipulative disguised anger make you change your decision. Sure, it's unpleasant to endure their emotions for a while. That's why they're having them — because they're unpleasant for you. It's an effort to control you. You just keep sailing on with your day. Eventually the emotions fade and they grouchily go with the new plan, and that's that.

Or they absolutely refuse and throw the biggest temper tantrum ever. And that's the deal-breaker. Then you break the deal.

Believe me, I know what it's like to stay with someone with dozens of petty behaviors so small that you feel silly leaving him "because it's hardly anything," and because I didn't want the big aching loneliness and anger at the end of the road to consume me. But ... if he discovers it's a deal-breaker and he's still not willing to put in the effort, what does that say?  It really defines whether you'll put up with mistreatment or not. I hope you won't say "Yes" to that.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: polly_mer on November 02, 2020, 05:47:53 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 27, 2020, 08:18:25 PM
What was the "easy fix" to "deal with the cat" that you thought I had neglected?

Take this particular cat to the pound and be done with it.  You don't have time and energy for this right now.

Big picture:

1) You are in mental crisis and this guy won't help.  Indeed, some of the details shared in various places indicate he is making it worse.

2) You are in physical pain that will last for months and this guy won't make very minor changes that would help.


Logical conclusion that is within your court: Get out of this relationship and stop tinkering around the edges.

Or you can keep fretting about why he won't do anything right up to the point that you end up in the hospital.  If the sight of certain objects prompts suicidal thoughts and you're having trouble doing basic self maintenance like getting dressed in a timely manner, then you don't need this extra overhead for drama.  That drama includes the pet dependent even at the basic level of daily feeding and care, let alone these weird attacks on your current partner.

I can tell you long stories about a very helpful spouse for when I had physical problems that involved being bad enough off that I couldn't dress myself.  Mr. Mer took over all the household duties and even came to campus with me to push the wheelchair between meetings because the campus was not ADA-accessible.

I can tell you long stories about a very helpful spouse when I had terrible mismatches between my work and home life.  We moved cross-country multiple times to address those problems and he came along even when he preferred to stay in certain communities.

Your partner is a poster child for the Dan Savage DTMFA action and nothing you've written changes that.  If anything, the long, detailed posts indicate you've done all you can to salvage a relationship and it's time for you to prioritize your needs and dump this person.

Feel bad as you do so and continue with therapy for the feelings, but you have to get out.  That's the action in your court because this guy is not going to change.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 02, 2020, 07:17:14 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 02, 2020, 05:47:53 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 27, 2020, 08:18:25 PM
What was the "easy fix" to "deal with the cat" that you thought I had neglected?
................
Take this particular cat to the pound and be done with it.  You don't have time and energy for this right now.
.................

Need to take some time to process your entire response, polly_mer. Right now mostly addressing this part.

1) Dumping my cat in the pound could lead to his euthanization if he isn't adopted quickly enough. No way the anxiety over that possibility or the guilt if it actually happens would improve my health in any way. Even if it didn't, being re-homed is stressful for a pet. I would not feel good about putting him through that. Not to mention how terribly I would miss him.

2) The cat has added to my daily responsibilities, but any stress or energy drain related to these is very much outweighed by the positive effect he has had on me. As others have indicated on the mental health thread, having a pet to care for can be a net positive. I do have difficulties currently to get through basic tasks, but some level of prompting helps (experimenting with apps for help with self-care). The cat prompts me with his mews and headbutts and body language to care for his needs; even on days I can't get myself to care about my own needs, I'm still able to tend to his. He gives me a reason to get out of bed in the mornings and makes it easier to sleep at night.

My emotions are maddeningly blunted by the depression, but I do love this cat; it's the strongest positive emotion I'm able to feel right now. I haven't self-harmed in months and that's largely thanks to having the cat to ground me during difficult episodes.

If the cat were suffering from neglect by being in my care, for love of him I would start looking for a better living situation for him. But he is healthy and happy and keeping him that way gives me a reason to keep going.

As for my relationship with my boyfriend, I'm not at a point where I feel I can handle any major changes. Someone on the Mental Health thread advised against making any major life decisions when struggling with simple day-to-day activities, and I think that makes sense. I feel there should be a sequence of goals, and I've got things I need to accomplish before ending a serious relationship. Mainly I would need to be prepared to be on my own without collapsing, because my boyfriend does support me physically and emotionally in many ways. I'm thinking something like:

1) Regain basic functions (eating, sleeping, hygiene, mobility)
2) Gain conviction that breaking up is the right decision. So, would need to sort out thoughts, otherwise will not have the courage to go through with it.
3) Figure out how to approach the difficult conversation(s)
4) Figure out logistics (e.g. moving schedule, dividing stuff, etc.)
5) Work through sadness without severe mental health setbacks.

I don't know. Never broken up with someone before.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: polly_mer on November 02, 2020, 11:30:28 AM
So keep the cat and ditch the boyfriend if the cat relationship is the positive one for you.

Keeping everything as it is and hoping it will get better may be easier in the moment, but it won't fix anything.  Letting things continue just makes it harder later to take action.

It's your life, but it does get old to observe someone ask for advice, be given nearly unanimous advice from people who seldom agree, and then fail to do anything related to that advice.

At one point, the issue was how hard someone should be trying.  Now might be a time to ask that question with a therapist for personalized feedback.

Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 02, 2020, 11:40:35 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 02, 2020, 11:30:28 AM
So keep the cat and ditch the boyfriend if the cat relationship is the positive one for you.

Keeping everything as it is and hoping it will get better may be easier in the moment, but it won't fix anything.  Letting things continue just makes it harder later to take action.

It's your life, but it does get old to observe someone ask for advice, be given nearly unanimous advice from people who seldom agree, and then fail to do anything related to that advice.

At one point, the issue was how hard someone should be trying.  Now might be a time to ask that question with a therapist for personalized feedback.

So how quick do you think I need to be about it? Today? Tomorrow?

Isn't making a plan of action a form of doing something related to the advice?

Advice here has been for dissolving the relationship but advice in therapy is split between trying to repair the relationship and deciding to leave.

Whatever the action I want to go into it with a relatively clear head and I want to have worked out how to approach it so I'm not easily sidetracked or derailed by emotional responses. Do I just go into this with no prep and no plan for how to weather the fallout?

I've brought up my concerns with my boyfriend and I've been keeping my distance emotionally. I have brought these issues up in therapy and just started a relationship skills group. I'm not planning to drag the process out anymore than I need to, but I know myself well enough to know if I don't go in to this with a concrete plan, i won't be able to see it all the way through.

I do appreciate the advice I get here, and I'm not sure it's fair to say I'm doing nothing about it.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 02, 2020, 11:53:17 AM
Also, I don't think wanting a plan to handle the emotional fallout of a breakup is a trivial concern given my history. In times of extreme isolation I've had severe dissociative episodes and psychotic symptoms. And it's not like I can easily visit friends to help get me through it. I can't even ask for a hug.

I need a contingency plan.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: mamselle on November 02, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
I left my abusive marriage, umm...let's see...exactly forty years ago this week, the decree nisi went through.

I took the cat with me...figured the cat was better company, for one thing, and the former spouse was dangerous in ways the cat would never be.

My planning involved renting a U--Haul van for some stuff, stashing some in a hidden corner of the basement of the apartment my landlady let me use (she knew about the abuse) and leaving the heavy bookcases and books because I didn't have time pack them and figured they were the one thing my spouse, himself a grad student, would respect and not destroy among my possessions.

I waited until the long weekend he was booked to give a conference paper out-of-stare to leave.

Two friends of his from the grad program helped me move (they'd also spotted the abuse issues and weren't having it.)

The things that led up to it were:

1) The three efforts over the space of a year to get us into couples counseling: he'd go for two sessions, decide he was "fine," and it was "all my problem," and stop the sessions.

2) The fact that, despite this, the abuse escalated despite my twice taking out restraining orders, and twice going to a retreat center for a week on my own (paid for by a helpful female priest, newly-ordained in our denomination.

3) 5he fact that friends trained in social work kept saying, "You have to set a deadline. Bu what date do you need to see changes, before you prepare to leave? 6 weeks? 6 months? 6 years?

4) The fact that I realized I hadn't been given life to waste it on someone who valued holding onto their anger more than holding onto me.

5)Various researches and interactions with his family that showed the abuse, both physical and emotional, to be adeeply-ingrained pattern he was not going to be able to let go of easily.

More to tell, but I have to go teach one of my cool middle school music students.

If I hadn't left him, I doubt I'd be alive now to enjoy that pleasure.

M.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: polly_mer on November 02, 2020, 01:00:08 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 02, 2020, 11:40:35 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 02, 2020, 11:30:28 AM
So keep the cat and ditch the boyfriend if the cat relationship is the positive one for you.

Keeping everything as it is and hoping it will get better may be easier in the moment, but it won't fix anything.  Letting things continue just makes it harder later to take action.

It's your life, but it does get old to observe someone ask for advice, be given nearly unanimous advice from people who seldom agree, and then fail to do anything related to that advice.

At one point, the issue was how hard someone should be trying.  Now might be a time to ask that question with a therapist for personalized feedback.

So how quick do you think I need to be about it? Today? Tomorrow?

Isn't making a plan of action a form of doing something related to the advice?

What kind of advice do you need on making a plan from people who have left long-term relationships?

If things are going well with the therapist on making the plan, then why are you asking us anything?

I write because I see no evidence of planning or even evaluating in your posts.

* I see a lot of writing on details that don't matter with the important issues showing up as almost an afterthought.
* I see some very big red, waving flags that are acknowledged and then discarded in favor of details that don't matter (you are more important than a cat and yet you seem much more worried about the cat possibly not finding another home and then possibly being euthanized than your physical and mental situation).
* The exact timeline is much less important than seeing either a plan or a concrete plan to get the evaluation of the relationship done and then a plan to act on that evaluation.

Talking feels like doing something, but it isn't.  Don't get trapped into another couple years of trying to figure out how bad is bad enough to leave or waiting for everything else to be perfect so you can leave a bad relationship.  That's how people end up writing letters to advice columnists that are titled "I Dumped My Ex-Boyfriend Four Years Ago. He's Still Living With Me.  I want him gone, but I don't have the heart to throw him out on the streets." (https://slate.com/human-interest/2020/10/dear-prudence-dumped-ex-boyfriend-still-living-home.html)
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: polly_mer on November 02, 2020, 01:03:00 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 02, 2020, 11:53:17 AM
Also, I don't think wanting a plan to handle the emotional fallout of a breakup is a trivial concern given my history. In times of extreme isolation I've had severe dissociative episodes and psychotic symptoms. And it's not like I can easily visit friends to help get me through it. I can't even ask for a hug.

You don't appear to be in a relationship now if you can't even get a hug from the boyfriend during normal times.  Why are you still with him if he isn't your rock while you're susceptible to severe dissociative episodes and psychotic symptoms?

You don't need to evaluate a relationship that isn't supportive now.  You need a plan to get out (not a contingency plan, a concrete plan) and get the help you need, even if that's you, the cat, and brand-new friends who have been in similar situations and can now help others as part of a shelter, support group, or some other setup designed to help those who must leave and don't have anywhere to go.  A good therapist can help you get connected with those kinds of groups as part of a leaving plan.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 02, 2020, 01:28:21 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 02, 2020, 01:00:08 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 02, 2020, 11:40:35 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 02, 2020, 11:30:28 AM
So keep the cat and ditch the boyfriend if the cat relationship is the positive one for you.

Keeping everything as it is and hoping it will get better may be easier in the moment, but it won't fix anything.  Letting things continue just makes it harder later to take action.

It's your life, but it does get old to observe someone ask for advice, be given nearly unanimous advice from people who seldom agree, and then fail to do anything related to that advice.

At one point, the issue was how hard someone should be trying.  Now might be a time to ask that question with a therapist for personalized feedback.

So how quick do you think I need to be about it? Today? Tomorrow?

Isn't making a plan of action a form of doing something related to the advice?

What kind of advice do you need on making a plan from people who have left long-term relationships?

If things are going well with the therapist on making the plan, then why are you asking us anything?

I write because I see no evidence of planning or even evaluating in your posts.

* I see a lot of writing on details that don't matter with the important issues showing up as almost an afterthought.
* I see some very big red, waving flags that are acknowledged and then discarded in favor of details that don't matter (you are more important than a cat and yet you seem much more worried about the cat possibly not finding another home and then possibly being euthanized than your physical and mental situation).
* The exact timeline is much less important than seeing either a plan or a concrete plan to get the evaluation of the relationship done and then a plan to act on that evaluation.

Talking feels like doing something, but it isn't.  Don't get trapped into another couple years of trying to figure out how bad is bad enough to leave or waiting for everything else to be perfect so you can leave a bad relationship.  That's how people end up writing letters to advice columnists that are titled "I Dumped My Ex-Boyfriend Four Years Ago. He's Still Living With Me.  I want him gone, but I don't have the heart to throw him out on the streets." (https://slate.com/human-interest/2020/10/dear-prudence-dumped-ex-boyfriend-still-living-home.html)

Eh...maybe I'm not expressing myself in writing very well. I tried to explain above that in treatment:

1) no therapist has even hinted that any of this behavior is a red flag for anything; they have been focusing on my ability to function when caring for myself and at school/work; when I bring up relationship stuff the advice has focused on preventing emotions from leading to impulsive actions and "get the basics in place first"

2) I *just* started the relationship group; I've hardly got any feedback there yet, and what I have gotten is tentative and mixed; there is more group input here and not just input from the therapist, so I might get more practical advice from people who have been there; I don't know; just started

3) I initially was quite upset about some of the things I describe, but since my psychiatrist and the group therapists gave me no indication it was a big deal (psychiatrist keeps trying point out ways boyfriend is "trying" as evidence the relationship can recover; therapists keep trying to warn me against making emotional judgments), I posted on the fora in hopes I might get a sense of "what am I missing?" that I thought these things might be dealbreakers, but trained professionals in behavioral health want to discuss improving communication and considering the positives as well as the negatives (I have gotten absolutely no advice on how to prepare to break up with someone)

in my current state, I don't trust my instincts or feelings to guide me; not very long ago they were telling me to to kill myself

4) the reason I was posting so much about the cat is that you seemed so certain it was best for me to get rid of him when I never once doubted my relationship with the cat; I didn't argue as much about the boyfriend because I do doubt my relationship with him

5) I still think what I wrote above *is* a plan of action; I know from experience working things out beforehand (including writing scripts for difficult conversations) makes it far more likely I will be able to actually gather the courage to initiate; and my reasons need to be crystal clear to me going in or I will be susceptible to emotional pleas to give him another chance; I've been keeping a journal of thoughts on this and trying to clarify to myself what is and is not tolerable to me, and what kind of future I'm going to try to make for myself

6) I wasn't thinking a timeline of years; I was thinking over the next couple of months; I just know I need my ducks in a row if I'm going to get through this; some actions do involve mental/emotional preparation
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 02, 2020, 01:49:55 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 02, 2020, 01:03:00 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 02, 2020, 11:53:17 AM
Also, I don't think wanting a plan to handle the emotional fallout of a breakup is a trivial concern given my history. In times of extreme isolation I've had severe dissociative episodes and psychotic symptoms. And it's not like I can easily visit friends to help get me through it. I can't even ask for a hug.

You don't appear to be in a relationship now if you can't even get a hug from the boyfriend during normal times.  Why are you still with him if he isn't your rock while you're susceptible to severe dissociative episodes and psychotic symptoms?

You don't need to evaluate a relationship that isn't supportive now.  You need a plan to get out (not a contingency plan, a concrete plan) and get the help you need, even if that's you, the cat, and brand-new friends who have been in similar situations and can now help others as part of a shelter, support group, or some other setup designed to help those who must leave and don't have anywhere to go.  A good therapist can help you get connected with those kinds of groups as part of a leaving plan.

I was talking about if we broke up and I went back to living alone. I won't be able to look to friends much for support because of social distancing and everyone just generally being in a state of unusually high stress and less able to deal with anyone else's.

The only reason this is a conflict for me is that for *years* he was absolutely my rock. The behavior regarding my crisis period and my injury are uncharacteristic. He has held me through panic attacks, reassured me when I doubted my ability to continue school, sat up all night with me in the ER when I had a bad med reaction, and used his PTO days to be by my side at doctor appointments when I felt too sick to be confident I could be assertive and coherent enough to get the doctor to listen to me. He has been patient with my diminished ability to contribute to chores and errands, never complaining. He is understanding about how my dissociation affects me even though I know he misses the old me that would talk and laugh and otherwise be present with him. His usual behavior towards me has been affectionate and caring. Recently he has gone back to that affectionate, caring behavior; I'm just not sure if it's for good this time or not.

It's been since the lockdown started that things just seemed to get overwhelming for him. I think he might have been unresponsive during my crisis because he felt helpless. He had also recently started talking to a therapist himself and a support group for people who have loved ones with mental illness. From what he told me, therapist encouraged *him* to dump *me* because "chronic depressives will always be chronic depressives; they are never completely better." And the people in his support group told him to look after himself first of all. The social isolation meant he couldn't blow off steam with his usual activities like exercise classes and board game nights. I have to acknowledge it isn't easy to have a bipolar partner who has lost stability and not having an easy time regaining it.

So it's been a question of whether I let the behavior of a couple of months outweigh the behavior of the last several years. It's a question of whether this aberration is severe enough to overshadow everything else. My own parents have had times when the stress of seeing me struggle with my mental health has caused them to withdraw or say extremely cruel things (at one point even encouraging me to kill myself). It isn't characteristic of how they relate to me all the time. I learned skills on how to be less affected by the times when they can't be supportive due to their own issues coping and just appreciate the times they can be. I've put distance between us physically and emotionally without severing ties completely and it has worked out better for them and for me.

Conversations in therapy had led me to believe this might be a viable goal for my relationship with my boyfriend. But I'm starting to lean more towards thinking it isn't.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: nonsensical on November 02, 2020, 02:12:25 PM
Smallcleanrat, this situation sounds incredibly difficult, and I'm sorry that you're experiencing it. On top of all the other unusual stressors going on in the world right now, it must seem even more daunting.

It sounds to me like right now you have a survival toolbox that doesn't have very many tools in it, or perhaps some of the tools aren't working very well. In that context, it can be hard and scary to think about giving up any of the tools. Even if one tool isn't working particularly well, it can be nearly impossible to think about giving it up if it's one of very few tools that a person currently has. It also sounds to me like your relationship with your boyfriend is one of those tools. Regardless of how well it's working, it works at least sometimes to some extent. Getting rid of that tool (breaking up with your boyfriend) would eliminate that tool while also adding the big stressor of going through a break-up. Put that way, it doesn't make any sense to leave the relationship.

Does that sound at all right? I have some other thoughts if it does, which I've typed out below, but please ignore all of this if the stuff I've written above doesn't make sense for your situation.

If what I've written does make sense, I have a few thoughts. One is that a break-up can be a big stressor while it's happening but can make people happier down the road than staying with their partner would have. So while it may seem foolish to add stressors now, one way to think about it is removing future stressors. Of course, staying with your boyfriend could also be a way to do that if he's interested in helping the relationship work better for you and capable of carrying out those interests. From what you've written here it doesn't strike me that that's necessarily the case right now, but I don't know your situation as well as you do and am not really in a position to say.

A second thought is that it might make more sense to add more tools before taking away one that isn't working so well. The tools can be helpful regardless of whether or not you decide to break up, so it doesn't seem to me that there is a down side to trying to add them. Developing your relationship with your therapist might be a good tool because that person could be a source of help and support when stressors occur. You mentioned above that your friends are stressed out themselves and might not be in a good place to offer support. I wonder whether they might be in a better place to just interact without that interaction having the explicit goal of providing support. For instance, would you find it pleasant to do a virtual game night with friends, or go on a hike with them, or text cute cat pictures back and forth? I'm trying to think of some things that might be a nice way to spend some time together and provide support without being about difficult emotional work, if that makes sense. The specific suggestions might not work for you, but maybe there's something that you all can do together sometimes that would feel like a nice way to spend time for everyone? That could potentially be another tool in your toolkit. Posting on this forum and potentially engaging in other online interactions might be a tool. Doing something that you find relaxing might be a tool.

I know all these things are easier said than done, and the specific suggestions here might not work for you. The general point I'm trying to make is that adding more tools can be helpful regardless of whether or not you stay with your boyfriend, and once the tools have been in your toolbox for a while the prospect of leaving might not feel so scary or bad. Or, you might decide to stay in the relationship, in which case you now have more things that you can turn to to feel better, which also seems like a win.

Again, apologies if none of this is speaking to where you are right now - please feel free to ignore if so! Good wishes to you regardless of how you decide to move forward.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: downer on November 02, 2020, 02:14:14 PM
smallcleanrat

I'm struck that you are spending a lot of time defending your choices here. It must take a good deal of time to compose your very well organized and thoughtful posts.

I'm just wondering whether you are finding the dialog useful to you? You did start the thread asking for feedback on your relationship, so maybe you do. But it also seems that you are in a dialog being put on the defensive with people who don't know you very well. I have a hard time understanding how that could be useful to you.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 02, 2020, 02:50:08 PM
Quote from: downer on November 02, 2020, 02:14:14 PM
smallcleanrat

I'm struck that you are spending a lot of time defending your choices here. It must take a good deal of time to compose your very well organized and thoughtful posts.

I'm just wondering whether you are finding the dialog useful to you? You did start the thread asking for feedback on your relationship, so maybe you do. But it also seems that you are in a dialog being put on the defensive with people who don't know you very well. I have a hard time understanding how that could be useful to you.

Mm...I didn't think that was what I was doing (except maybe with the cat). I'll try to pay more attention to avoid defensiveness.

A lot of my responses were trying to clarify points that seemed to have been misunderstood. Like why am I posting here if I have a therapist helping me with a break-up action plan? I'm *not* getting help with a break-up action plan in therapy. You can't even get a hug from your boyfriend? I can; I was referring to other people being unavailable post-breakup due to COVID. That kind of thing.

And when I give reasons I am hesitant to take a certain action or have doubts it's not necessarily a defense of the way I'm doing things now. These are just the specific things I think I have to figure out to move forward. Is this what you meant?

A lot of what I write in my posts are things that have been on my mind (and in my journal) for quite a while now; I sketch outlines trying to connect thoughts to make a coherent whole. Posting here and reading other people's opinions and responses helps me clarify my thoughts or consider questions I hadn't thought of. It can help me restructure what's going on inside my head and get me unstuck. I guess it doesn't come across that way to some, but I honestly try to integrate the feedback I get here into my thought process.

When I first posted, my aim was mainly to see if these things seemed serious to other people. My gut initially told me yes, therapists seemed to be telling me "it depends," but now I'm getting responses on the fora saying yes.

I was initially hoping to think of ways to improve communication and regain trust, as that seemed to be what the therapists were encouraging. Now I'm more in the mindset of looking at whether this is going to work long-term, and what I would have to do if I need to leave the relationship and adapt to living alone again. So...yes, I do find the dialog useful.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: the_geneticist on November 02, 2020, 04:19:57 PM
Smallcleanrat, it takes two people working together to regain trust.  Maybe I'm overstepping, but it sounds to me like your boyfriend WANTS this relationship to end, but isn't brave enough to do it.  He told you his therapist said he should end the relationship - that's quite the zap to put on your head.  Now he can think of himself as heroic simply by not leaving. 
Who's name is on the lease?  Can you afford this place on your own?  If yes, then my vote is to make HIM leave.
Ending a relationship doesn't mean that you have to move out.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 02, 2020, 11:54:46 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 02, 2020, 04:19:57 PM
Smallcleanrat, it takes two people working together to regain trust.  Maybe I'm overstepping, but it sounds to me like your boyfriend WANTS this relationship to end, but isn't brave enough to do it.  He told you his therapist said he should end the relationship - that's quite the zap to put on your head.  Now he can think of himself as heroic simply by not leaving. 
Who's name is on the lease?  Can you afford this place on your own?  If yes, then my vote is to make HIM leave.
Ending a relationship doesn't mean that you have to move out.

He decided not to continue with that therapist, noting she made that judgment during their very first session when she knew almost nothing about me or about our relationship. She said her advice was "based on all my experience with depressed people." She also said people with depression shouldn't breed because it's hereditary and depressed people make poor parents anyway since they aren't able to be emotionally available to their children, which he thought was a weirdly broad and biased statement.

I've asked him about whether he wants to separate for his own sake. I told him if he was really unhappy I didn't want him hanging around on my account; I don't want to be the reason he's miserable. I do care about him and I believe he cares about me, so I felt we could handle a break-up amicably and practically (i.e. no screaming matches or throwing someone out the door on the spot). The lease is in both our names, but if either one of us moves the other has to as well. We are in student housing for students with partners and/or children. No partner means no housing eligibility for me. And he's only able to live here because he's the partner of a student; he can't stay if I leave. We do have separate rooms, so we could possibly have a roommate relationship until our lease is up. Unlike with mamselle's situation, there is no safety concern adding urgency towards moving.

But he told me he wants to try to make things work; that he was overly stressed and wasn't thinking clearly and said things he regrets. He's been apologetic and back to being caring and supportive. I posted a while back on ways he has supported me through my health issues, and people on that thread said "He sounds like a keeper." Unlike with mamselle's situation, if I *hadn't* stayed with him I might not be alive right now. nonsensical's toolbox analogy is spot on. I currently am getting support from the relationship, so ending things without an idea of how I will compensate without that support isn't something I have the courage to do right now. I feel safer and more grounded with him than without him, just not to the same extent as before.

polly_mer, I'm not sure why nothing I post here seems like evaluating or planning to you. I feel like that's what I'm doing by 1) prioritizing getting stronger mentally and physically so I can better withstand stressful events 2) joining a relationship skills group 3) working through my thoughts to settle on my decisions and the reasons for them so I can act with conviction and the other things I mentioned. So, like with the cat, I don't know why you insist I am doing absolutely nothing about the situation. Maybe it's that you don't think I'm doing enough, but am I really doing absolutely nothing? I'm doing what I think I can handle at the moment, trying to get myself to a point where I can handle more.

I seem to be earning a lot of scorn from you lately, and I try to see where you're coming from but I don't always understand. It's been quite dispiriting since I respect you and have really appreciated your feedback. I'm not sure if you think I'm too lazy to act, too stubborn to take advice, or just too dense to see obvious solutions. I'm sorry if I've gotten annoying with my posts; I know I sometimes focus too much on the wrong things without realizing. I'll try to be better about this. I don't want to be off-putting here because I really do value people's responses.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: marshwiggle on November 03, 2020, 05:50:16 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 02, 2020, 02:50:08 PM

When I first posted, my aim was mainly to see if these things seemed serious to other people. My gut initially told me yes, therapists seemed to be telling me "it depends," but now I'm getting responses on the fora saying yes.

I haven't commented yet, but no one has brought this up so I will.

Have you discussed relationships with friends, family members, etc.  with your therapist? The reason I ask is that you've mentioned problematic relationships with professors and colleagues, and it occurred to me that if you haven't identified any single extended relationship as healthy and supportive it's hard to tell if your expectations are reasonable or not.

It seems at least possible that the therapist saying "it depends" may be based on the difficulty of differentiating your relationship from your perception of your relationship.

Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: polly_mer on November 03, 2020, 06:36:30 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 02, 2020, 11:54:46 PM
I seem to be earning a lot of scorn from you lately, and I try to see where you're coming from but I don't always understand. It's been quite dispiriting since I respect you and have really appreciated your feedback.


It's not scorn; I post bluntly out of great concern for you because the waffling on how serious things are when things are really, really serious is usually a big red flag that someone needs help to leave an abusive situation. I tend to default to blunt when I see someone get lost in the details and I think the focus has to be on the big picture to get the help.

For example, the narrative of your relationship on this thread did not start with

My boyfriend of N years who has been my rock for all those years while I have have my mental and physical health issues has become much less helpful since the COVID shutdown.  He is now distant and is much less available to me.  We have done some counseling together, but he doesn't want to go any more.  We're having trouble just living in the same space at this point... 

Instead, the narrative was more like,

I'm in huge distress right now and this jerk won't even move to the other side of the couch to prevent physically hurting me.  We recently got a cat who hurts him and likes me, so I'm just letting him sort that out.  <much much later> Oh, by the way, I'm in such serious distress that I am suicidal just by looking at items, but I can't have the cat go elsewhere because that cat's life really matters in the big picture.  I am so isolated from my friends and family (generally a red flag of being in an abusive relationship) that I wouldn't have anyone if I left him.


The first situation is indeed more of a wait and see while focusing on personal mental health issues.  The second situation is very much a "get out now before it escalates" situation.

Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 02, 2020, 11:54:46 PM
polly_mer, I'm not sure why nothing I post here seems like evaluating or planning to you. I feel like that's what I'm doing by 1) prioritizing getting stronger mentally and physically so I can better withstand stressful events 2) joining a relationship skills group 3) working through my thoughts to settle on my decisions and the reasons for them so I can act with conviction and the other things I mentioned.

I worry when people focus on activities that can expand into years without results instead of working a plan that may take years, but each step is a logical progression towards a goal.

For example, checking into a treatment facility to get medication and perspective is a direct action in the prioritizing health plan.  Increasing frequency of visits with medical professionals or being in the step of evaluating effects as medications are adjusted are also direct actions.  You may be doing those things, but those things are not front and center in the posts on this thread.  Instead, you justified why things weren't so bad using the same words that people in abusive relationships tend to use.

Focusing on reconnecting with friends and family virtually so that not all your emotional needs fall on one person is an action that will likely pay off on the emotional strengthening goal.  Yes, physical distancing is a problem, but the impression from your posts was being so isolated from other humans that you had no friends and were at risk of living on the streets if you left (again, common for abusive situations and therefore very concerning about the need to act quickly).  If you had to leave your current housing, then you could bubble up with other people who could give you hugs.  One solid argument for the cat is the physical affection from another living creature, even if the interactions with humans has to remain virtual.

An example of a non-productive activity that feels like doing something, but doesn't generally move someone towards the goal is joining the relationship group.  If the problem at home is cabin fever and too much togetherness, then a better coping mechanism is more interaction with friends and community doing something you used to enjoy, could enjoy, or might want to do just to have human interaction.  Years ago, we had a friend who in short order lost all her family members and directly stated that her biggest need was to be with other people, but not have to interact.  She was invited for months to come sit in a comfy chair, read her book, and just hang out with people around, but no social demands.

If the problem is a true relationship problem like wanting different things out of life now that you're both in different life stages, then, as you have pointed out, it's not completely your responsibility to fix things.  You can acquire new communication skills through a workshop, but if you folks were great for years, then communication itself is unlikely to be the problem.  A neutral party like a therapist could help sort through issues, but if the problem is more the boyfriend hitting the end of his rope during a very stressful time, then just talking about the stress is much less likely to result in positive change than doing whatever can be done to relieve the stress.

A possibly more productive action is implementing respite care (formal or informal).  That allows you to interact with additional people in a safe way and gives the boyfriend permission to do some self care while knowing you are safe.


To summarize, there are many actions to take if the goals are:

* Better physical and mental health

* Making a coherent plan to go forward

However, spending a lot of time directly on feelings to fluctuate between "this is really, really serious and I need help, people!" and "No, it's not really that serious, why do you keep insisting this is serious?" is a big red flag to me of someone who needs the blunt to move on to action to address the really, truly, no-foolin' serious aspects instead being allowed to bury the serious in much less serious areas that can be wait and see.  For the Nth time, that waffling is typical for people who are in need of the most help to move on, especially those in abusive situations.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 06, 2020, 04:21:41 PM
Thanks for explaining further, polly-mer.

I thought your underlying message was more "Shut up and go away" than it was "I'm going to be blunt for your own good."

Kind of a lot to unpack in your post, but I am working through a response to the points you bring up here. Maybe I didn't present things in a very coherent way; I know I was adding to the story piecemeal. I think some of the things I meant to convey here didn't come through.

Quote from: marshwiggle on November 03, 2020, 05:50:16 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 02, 2020, 02:50:08 PM

When I first posted, my aim was mainly to see if these things seemed serious to other people. My gut initially told me yes, therapists seemed to be telling me "it depends," but now I'm getting responses on the fora saying yes.

I haven't commented yet, but no one has brought this up so I will.

Have you discussed relationships with friends, family members, etc.  with your therapist? The reason I ask is that you've mentioned problematic relationships with professors and colleagues, and it occurred to me that if you haven't identified any single extended relationship as healthy and supportive it's hard to tell if your expectations are reasonable or not.

It seems at least possible that the therapist saying "it depends" may be based on the difficulty of differentiating your relationship from your perception of your relationship.



It's a fair point, marshwiggle. But this is actually something I've been thinking about and discussing for quite a while.

I have had relationships with healthy and supportive dynamics, just not consistently so. Things fluctuate, but since COVID there seems to be a lot more relationships downs than ups. I think this is the first time in my life practically every relationship has had a major downturn within the same period of time. Usually, even if one relationship hit a snag I had at least one other that was ok. Now it just seems like every type of relationship I have is going downhill.

Keeping expectations reasonable is a consideration often in the forefront of my mind; most of my adult life has involved whittling down my expectations of other people and taking more agency in my own life. When I'm not sure about the reasonableness of an expectations, I try to get the what's and why's of other people's opinions. It may not have been explicitly mentioned in this thread, but I have brought it up in other threads and in therapy.

There is also an implicit question about expectations in my description of the boyfriend-grabbing-injured-hand situation. Expectation: if I request that boyfriend cease action that causes me physical pain, boyfriend will cease the action. I thought this was reasonable, so I was upset that he kept forgetting. I think the message I was getting in therapy was that an expectation can be reasonable without someone's failure to meet that expectation being a relationship deal-breaker.

I think "it depends" refers to the fact that what is tolerable and what isn't is highly individual.

Recent expectations disappointed (that I don't see as overly demanding):

Friend(s)/Colleague(s): If someone needs to back out of plans to meet, they will take the 30 seconds or less required to send a message telling the other person involved. They will not simply let the other person show up, waiting around, messaging in vain, wondering what's happened. Doubly so if the plans are to meet for a meal; otherwise the other person is also waiting around hungry.

Professor: When asking *both* your TAs if they have any thoughts or questions, don't just close the chat as soon as your favorite TA is finished speaking (in meeting after meeting); the other one might have something to say as well. In fact, the other one may have been in the act of speaking when you closed the chat. And the other one may be especially worth listening to as she's the one actually doing the work when you tell the two of us to work on something "together." Please treat me as though I exist.

Professor: When your TA is highly distressed and explicitly states suicidal intent, don't just say goodbye, close the chat, and go about your business. Take a minute or so at least to contact someone...*anyone*...who might be able to help that person. Especially don't contact that TA a month later asking for a favor cleaning up a mess the other TA caused without so much as a "Hi, how are you?" Some kind of greeting is basic politeness, whether that person was in crisis the last time you spoke or not.

Labmates: If the reason you have been pulling away from me lately is because my health issues have made you uncomfortable (verified this with one of the labmates), that's disappointing, but I can accept it. And planning an end-of-term lunch together without inviting me...again, disappointing, but understandable if my presence makes you uncomfortable. But did you really have to be so blatant about it? Talking about it right in front of me, picking up your coats all as a group and giving me sidelong glances as you went out the door?

Labmates + PI: If someone is on the floor on hands and knees because some kind of allergic reaction is making breathing difficult by swelling throat and tongue, take a few seconds to ask if they are ok and if they need help. Don't just walk past, assuming they can just ask for help if needed. Especially don't do it a second time when a similar thing happens a month later (and after you've had a discussion in which you promised to quickly check in should you ever see someone on the floor again). Getting the feeling I could drop dead without anyone realizing despite being surrounded by people is demoralizing, to say the least.

Parents: Eh...Did a lot of work to accept that, for some people, expecting them to stop being abusive may actually be expecting too much. If they are too in denial that anything they've ever done was wrong, and too convinced that you are the source of every problem, not much is going to change. Just put up whatever boundaries you need to protect yourself, and keep whatever level of contact you feel is of benefit (or at least is not harmful) to you.

I do suspect there are elements about the way I socialize and try to connect with people which may be alienating sometimes; I could certainly aim to improve my people skills. I just don't think unreasonably high expectations of others is a major issue at this point. I've gotten to a point where I'm reluctant to reduce my expectations any further, as I feel I would be getting more entrenched into a mindset of thinking I don't deserve the same level of common courtesy as everybody else.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 08, 2020, 02:42:02 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 03, 2020, 06:36:30 AM
Instead, the narrative was more like,

I'm in huge distress right now and this jerk won't even move to the other side of the couch to prevent physically hurting me.  We recently got a cat who hurts him and likes me, so I'm just letting him sort that out.  <much much later> Oh, by the way, I'm in such serious distress that I am suicidal just by looking at items, but I can't have the cat go elsewhere because that cat's life really matters in the big picture.  I am so isolated from my friends and family (generally a red flag of being in an abusive relationship) that I wouldn't have anyone if I left him.

Ok, I'm sorry I wasn't more coherent. Currently, I'm struggling, but I am not in crisis. And in the even that does happen, I have already worked out a safety plan with my treatment team. Boyfriend seems to have gotten past the worst of his burnout and is asking me to trust him again to be a source of support and safety; I've just been having trouble doing that because of how devastating it was to reach for that support in a time of extreme distress and find it absent.

I didn't start talking about the cat on this thread until you brought it up as evidence that I don't care enough about my boyfriend to justify a relationship. I don't see the cat as a relationship issue nor does my boyfriend. And no one on the cat thread seemed to think so either. The cat likes both of us, he just plays too rough with boyfriend because boyfriend is not consistent about discouraging the behavior. Consensus on the cat thread was that at this point letting him sort that out is what has to happen at this point. And you did chide me in an earlier post here about seemingly not being receptive to the consensus opinion.

I am isolated from family and friends, but this is not boyfriend's doing. My family would like to be closer if I would let them, but that would come with the expectation that I defer to their judgment on most of my life choices, and it's either capitulate or more conflict that I don't think I can deal with at moment. Friends are mostly just busy. They have careers, kids, and now all the additional work-life juggling due to the pandemic. I've been so shutdown for so long I haven't had much to offer other people, so I haven't been terribly successful at building close friendships of the sort that would survive through all this. The friend I was closest too more recently said and did some unkind things, lashing out due to stress. He apologized, but it still stings. None of this is boyfriend's fault. He encourages me to socialize.

Quote from: polly_mer on November 03, 2020, 06:36:30 AM
For example, the narrative of your relationship on this thread did not start with

My boyfriend of N years who has been my rock for all those years while I have have my mental and physical health issues has become much less helpful since the COVID shutdown.  He is now distant and is much less available to me.  We have done some counseling together, but he doesn't want to go any more.  We're having trouble just living in the same space at this point... 


I guess that's what I should have done, because that's a better description of the way things are now. Except we're not currently having trouble living in the same space, though we've mostly suspended difficult discussions that probably still need to happen. But things are relatively ok for the short term.

Quote from: polly_mer on November 03, 2020, 06:36:30 AM
Focusing on reconnecting with friends and family virtually so that not all your emotional needs fall on one person is an action that will likely pay off on the emotional strengthening goal.  Yes, physical distancing is a problem, but the impression from your posts was being so isolated from other humans that you had no friends and were at risk of living on the streets if you left (again, common for abusive situations and therefore very concerning about the need to act quickly).

I have been trying to maintain connections with other people, and prior to this was not putting all my emotional needs on my boyfriend. I reserved most of it for myself and my treatment team to deal with. I only brought him into it if I wasn't doing well handling it without him; he told me he wanted me to feel ok coming to him if things got bad and not keep him in the dark.

I didn't mean to give the impression I would be at risk of living on the streets. I said if we went our separate ways I would have to move, which is true. I have people I know I am friendly with, but mostly not close with. I've been trying to engage in friendly interaction of the type nonsensical describes (nothing heavy, just socializing). Sometimes it results in a conversation, but most of the time not. I'm still trying.

Quote from: polly_mer on November 03, 2020, 06:36:30 AM
For example, checking into a treatment facility to get medication and perspective is a direct action in the prioritizing health plan.  Increasing frequency of visits with medical professionals or being in the step of evaluating effects as medications are adjusted are also direct actions.  You may be doing those things, but those things are not front and center in the posts on this thread.

No, I haven't much discussed these things on this thread, but I have on the mental health thread. It didn't seem directly relationship-related to me, so I left it out on this thread.

Quote from: polly_mer on November 03, 2020, 06:36:30 AM
An example of a non-productive activity that feels like doing something, but doesn't generally move someone towards the goal is joining the relationship group.
.......
You can acquire new communication skills through a workshop, but if you folks were great for years, then communication itself is unlikely to be the problem.  A neutral party like a therapist could help sort through issues, but if the problem is more the boyfriend hitting the end of his rope during a very stressful time, then just talking about the stress is much less likely to result in positive change than doing whatever can be done to relieve the stress.

1) I think you might be making an unwarranted assumption about the relationship group being non-productive. It's a group at the outpatient program I'm currently in, and isn't intended to be long-term. The structure of the group has individuals sharing a specific issue they want feedback on. Group leader and other members provide suggestions on

A) Considering things from different perspectives
B) Strategize on problem-solving. From session to session, members report on actions they've tried since the last time and what the results were. This may lead to some fine-tuning or restrategizing if things didn't go well.
C) Managing emotions in the context of preparation (called "coping ahead"). If you know you are likely to respond a certain way, and that this response is maladaptive, then you plan beforehand how you are going to handle it so it doesn't impede your ability to follow through with your action plan.

I still think it matches your criteria for "doing something"; does it still sound non-productive?

I was in a similar group years ago and it certainly did help me improve my relationship with my parents.

2) Just because things were good for years doesn't mean communication was good in all domains. We communicated well for the most part, but there were some sore spots we never really figured out how to resolve. So I think there is benefit from working on communication, and most likely it will involve reexamining our expectations of each other.

3) Talking about how to deal with the stress is the step preceding taking further action to deal with the stress. It's not the complete solution. If I don't talk to him, how can I know what actions to take? I'd just be guessing, which seems less likely to be effective than if I ask him what he needs and we experiment with solutions to find what works.

Final Note RE: Recognizing an Abusive Relationship: I do recognize that it's easy for the person actually in the relationship to assess their situation accurately, but I have been willing to pay attention to and evaluate other people's perspectives. Not immediately springing into action when I get advice (even if it's great advice), doesn't mean I'm rejecting it. It's just that in order to act with conviction (i.e. without waffling), I have to make sense of things.

I will note here that not a single therapist so far has called my relationship with my boyfriend abusive (one major reason I'm very unsure about giving up on it). And I contrast this with back when I was reaching a breaking point with my parents, when every therapist I talked to didn't hesitate to say "That's abuse" (or "That's not parenting, that's bullying" at the mildest).
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: polly_mer on November 08, 2020, 05:49:08 PM
<putting back on the blunt hat>

1) What do you want from us?  That's an honest question about how we can best support you as a unique individual that we as strangers on the internet can provide.  Possible options include, but are not limited to, (using a name instead of possibly confusing pronouns of me and you):

2) Yes, I still think the relationship group is a non-activity that takes up valuable time and energy that doesn't contribute to stated goals.  I am very skeptical of single-purpose groups where the bonding is over negative attributes instead of positive attributes so that addressing the attributes (i.e., getting better) means losing emotional support and possibly the only current emotional support.  I would be much less worried if you had joined a book club or something similarly covid-safe-as-virtual where sometimes personal relationships are discussed among friends than joining a relationship group where everyone except the facilitator needs help (and even some facilitators will be better at the intellectual parts than the messy emotional parts in their own lives).

3) The issues related to having friends/colleagues/family who value you for being you still remains worrying in your last posts.  I will wait to see what your answer to 1 is before I continue pulling that thread.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 08, 2020, 09:23:38 PM
Answering out of order here, and going to try to make this my last mammoth post for a while as I imagine people are pretty tired of them.

2) I still don't agree that the group is useless. Why this assumption that it's the *only* source of support? I never said that at all? You keep inserting assumptions I didn't even realize I needed to head off at the pass; I don't know if I need to change how I write so I don't imply things to don't mean, but I try to be careful. There is no exclusivity contract saying I can't also look for non-treatment related social connections. I also think working towards getting better *is* a positive attribute. Losing the group also does not mean losing support from individual group members. I text outside of group with a few people from the program and it's helpful in a way that talking to someone who "doesn't need help" rarely does.

And I tried to explain as best I could the primary purpose of the group is NOT social support, it is SKILL-BUILDING and PROBLEM-SOLVING. The action-oriented stuff you keep telling me I'm not doing. Getting help writing a script for getting through a difficult conversation serves a function that a book club won't. It's not ALL about emotions; I've said this many times. You didn't respond to these details even to refute them and it was the whole point of that part of my post.

3) The only reason I can report on those issues is because of trying to reach out and make connections. It's a work in progress. And how easy is it for anyone to find someone who values you for you? Isn't people valuing you for certain aspects of you more the norm? And I'm not myself anymore; haven't been for a long time. I feel like a nonentity; I'm sure I often present as a nonentity. If someone didn't know the old me, what is there to value about this diminished me? If socializing requires synchronicity (in-person vs online messages) I can't time my interactions to when I'm a bit more present and less shutdown. It's a real hindrance when trying to connect with new people.

My parents, my boyfriend, a few old friends...they remember the old me. They are still in my life to some degree, and that's still something I am grateful for, even if some of the closeness is gone.

1) I have some specific relationship-related questions (that I thought could be asked as relatively self-contained scenarios). I have conflicted feelings about them and have been getting conflicted opinions from non-fora people who are not all as practiced at explaining to someone else *why* they have those opinions. These are questions I would still want to hear fora input on even if boyfriend and I had broken up, because I would eventually want to be in another relationship one day.

My first question was about the handholding habit. It felt like a big deal at the time. Then I got lots of out-of-fora input to try to be more understanding and forgiving and to find ways to discourage his habit other than expecting him to remember. I tried on this mindset but couldn't quite settle into it. I tend to get different takes from people on the fora than I do from people I talk to outside of it. So I asked if this would have bothered anyone else. When I get stuck on something I like to learn other people's opinions and experiences; I've said this above.

I do pay attention when people mention how the big picture looks from an outside perspective, but mostly those posts are written with the tone of "If it helps, here's my take on it." Yours come across more as "Stop being such an idiot!" and I've tried to see where you're coming from, reading your responses very carefully but never seem to get it right. I'm just as much an idiot from one post to the next.

I didn't realize that first question would lead to such intense scrutiny of the entire relationship (and the rest of my life) and that I would have to scramble to try to clear up misconceptions. Maybe that was stupid of me. I'm sorry; I'm trying.

Everything I say here lately seems to have something fundamentally wrong with it. I've gotten so many replies from you that seem to boil down to "Stop! Everything you are doing is terrible!" Which isn't necessarily unhelpful, but is way more overwhelming than talking about one specific subset of topics at a time. No matter how much thought I put into my replies, how much I think I am addressing your points, the next response is always "Everything you are doing is still terrible!" And you often don't comment on what I feel are my most significant points so I don't even know if you read them.

Observation: you say things like "why bother asking *us* anything at all?" Or "what do you want from *us*?" But honestly it's your posts specifically that have baffled me the most and had me struggling to figure out how to respond. Your first response to my post about the handholding was to reference a completely different thread and essentially say "obviously neither of you cares about the other." It was a bold statement with an extremely brief explanation. What were you actually expecting me to take away from that? Was it supposed to be like cold water to the face, waking me up to the reality we had "no business being in a relationship?" Because all it did was confuse me.

This was followed by "what the hell is wrong with you? Get rid of the damn cat!" Which later became "why do you keep talking about unimportant things like the damn cat?!?" Well, it's because you kept bashing me over the head with it, never commenting on any of the explanation I gave on why your assessment of the cat as a symptom of a loveless relationship didn't make the slightest bit of sense to me. You switched your point to "having a cat to take care of right now is a terrible idea."

Downer was right upthread; the only thing happening here anymore is me trying to explain myself to you (and then getting a lot of the things I say ignored). I only seem to frustrate you and if you still think I'm being an idiot by not coming around to your point of view I hope, at the very least, you can believe me when I say it hasn't been for lack of trying. Maybe it's just a case of pearls before swine; I really don't know.

Polly_mer, if nothing I've said on this post has made me seem the slightest bit less dense than the last, then maybe the thread can move in a better direction if I stop posting here for awhile. Not in a farewell-cruel-fora sense. Just that I don't have anything to say anymore that is substantially different from what I've already said. I could try changing to a different relationship topic, but it might just devolve the same way my last one did.

You took a lot of time responding to me, and I do appreciate the effort and good intention. I felt a lot of things when reading your posts, but at least I didn't feel invisible.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: Caracal on November 09, 2020, 04:19:35 AM
I think lots of people operate with the assumption that if you're posting on this board about relationship problems, stuff isn't going well. I get annoyed at my partner all the time about things. We talk (or you know, yell) about it, say what we need to say and move along. I don't need outside input. The problem with relationship advice is that people can't have a full picture. That's often used as an excuse in cases where someone should clearly be listening to advice to leave a relationship, but it makes a good excuse because it is true.

When other people evaluate your relationship, they do so by their own metrics of what they want. I think its a bad sign that you don't actually seem able to be able to discuss these problems with your boyfriend. But I can't deal with unexpressed conflict. My partner and I will have a 30 minute heated discussion about how we didn't like each other's tone. A lot of people would find that pretty exhausting, but they aren't the ones married to either of us.

It seems like you want a universal judgement and it isn't going to happen. Maybe your boyfriend is a controlling jerk. Or perhaps he's just a nice guy who is pretty oblivious. Or maybe it is somewhere in between. You also could break up with him even if he isn't a bad dude. It could be that you guys once worked well together and now don't anymore. Lots of nice, perfectly lovely people break up all the time and hopefully go date someone else who can provide them with what they need in their lives.

However, nobody here, or in the therapy group is going to be able to tell you what to do .
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: downer on November 09, 2020, 04:44:35 AM
 smallcleanrat

The Fora may be a good place to get support and it may be a good place to discuss some academic and political issues. That will vary.

But a lot of posters have their own agendas and styles that don't fit well with providing good personal advice. As I indicated previously, I have been dubious whether you are getting great advice here. I could not tell if you were getting much from the interaction, and you seemed to be putting a lot of effort in. If you did find it worthwhile, then that's all fine. But you seemed to be getting tangled in long interactions that were not going anywhere. I don't know if you are looking for someone to tell you want to do -- I don't really get that sense. If it is a good way for you to reflect on your relationship, that's great. But it is important to always keep in mind the inherent dangers of getting advice from strangers on the internet.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 09, 2020, 05:00:09 AM
Hi, Caracal.

I...uh...What did I write to make you think I wanted 1) universal judgment? Or 2) someone to "tell me what to do" (this is the opposite of what I wrote! People are already *telling* me what to do. I said I needed to process what people were telling me so that I clearly saw the reasoning behind it in order to own the decision and have the conviction to take action. Just doing it because someone *told* me it was the best action is a bad idea.)

I know people can't have the full picture. That's why initially I didn't try to ask for evaluations on the whole relationship, and asked about a specific issue.

Quote from: Caracal on November 09, 2020, 04:19:35 AM
When other people evaluate your relationship, they do so by their own metrics of what they want.

Yes! Exactly! That's why it's helpful. What works for one relationship won't work for another. Knowing a bit more about the different dynamics in other people's relationships gives me a better sense of the possibilities.

I thought responses would be more in the form of "If it were me..." because I figures it was impossible to give enough description of my own relationship for anyone to judge my own as a whole.

I feel like something's gone drastically wrong with how I communicate. It really feels like I'm losing my mind. I think I'm saying one thing, but people seem to be getting a very different message. I don't recall this ever happening to such an extent. I'm actually pretty freaked out.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: Liquidambar on November 09, 2020, 05:52:45 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 09, 2020, 05:00:09 AM
I feel like something's gone drastically wrong with how I communicate. It really feels like I'm losing my mind. I think I'm saying one thing, but people seem to be getting a very different message. I don't recall this ever happening to such an extent. I'm actually pretty freaked out.

Please don't freak out.  I feel like I've understood most of your communication throughout this thread.  I just didn't reply because I didn't have anything relevant to say.

My sense is that the discussion here got off on the wrong foot because the handholding issue required more context.  That's the one thing I'd identify as a communication problem, which has since been rectified.

My impression is that we're watching your thought process as you consider things.  I think that can be a difficult thing to observe in an online context since there's a tendency for people to think, "But we already talked about this.  The prior discussion must not be what she wanted.  What does she want?" when you're still processing.  You're not obligated to provide us with answers, and you can use the fora this way if it's helpful to you.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: polly_mer on November 09, 2020, 06:34:53 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 09, 2020, 05:00:09 AM
I feel like something's gone drastically wrong with how I communicate. It really feels like I'm losing my mind. I think I'm saying one thing, but people seem to be getting a very different message. I don't recall this ever happening to such an extent. I'm actually pretty freaked out.

There's not necessarily anything wrong with what you communicate so much as I am a very, very different person from you with different experiences.  Sometimes, a different perspective helps.  Sometimes, not.  I do hear you, but I disagree that continuing to do what you are doing will somehow result in a different-in-the-desired-way result.  For example, that whole last post was essentially "Please tell me that I'm basically on the right path and only need to tinker at the edges". 

Decades ago, I did a phone survey on television shows including sometimes variations on a title.  One question in particular sticks in my mind because the surveyor kept going down the list and I kept saying, "Changing the title does nothing to change my assessment that I won't tune in because I don't watch nature specials".  Something similar is in play when I disagree with the theory underlying the proposed action you've presented. 

For example, therapy and medication to treat mental illness are valuable tools.  I don't agree that one can learn the necessary skill-building and problem-solving from a relationship group, especially if the focus is on scripts and self reports.  People can build their social intelligence through coaching and mentoring, but that includes direct observation of the activities in a natural setting.  Family and friends can provide valuable feedback on the pattern, not just the one-off behavior.  Personal opinion: an intellectual approach to relationships in the abstract is generally
far less useful to specific relationships than accepting each relationship as its own thing.

Likewise, I disagree that treating relationship problems as a series of one-offs is more useful than the patterns when the series is more than one isolated question every couple of years.  If you  are routinely asking, "How bad is this?", then the overall pattern is "Bad enough because during good times, one doesn't have the ongoing series of questions".  If you're setting up an outlet to deal with the whole series one at a time, then, personal opinion based on observation and some personal experience, that indicates a much greater need to focus on the big picture where real change can happen to break the series.

You can, of course, just disengage because I am a stranger on the internet and my opinion does not matter one whit.  However, since you keep asking questions,  but focus on how the answers you get aren't the ones you want, my bet is you do want to change, but aren't yet at the place where you accept that what you are doing isn't going to get you there.  I could be wrong because I don't know you.  Decades of pattern observations for people who react similarly for advice that isn't what they expect or want indicates my being wrong in this area is a much lower probability than someone who wants to be affirmed in hopeful thinking that certain actions will make the desired changes.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 09, 2020, 07:00:21 AM
Thanks for responding in a friendly way, Polly_mer.

I see you more as Internet acquaintance. There's no way I would have tried this hard with someone I'd never interacted with before. I respect you enough to care about trying to find some common understanding.

It's not that you're not giving me the answers I want so much as ignoring a good chunk of what I write. I noted you don't comment on what I think are my most salient points even to say you disagree. You still don't acknowledge you do this. And you're just wrong about skills groups. Factually wrong. I've been helped by skills groups before. Friends and family gave terrible advice. Maybe groups don't always help or don't often help or rarely help. I haven't looked at large-scale studies. But you're just wrong if you think they *can't* help. This is why it's so maddening when you ignore things like me saying I found a relationship skills group tremendously helpful in the past. You don't even bother to say you think I'm lying or deluded, you just ignore.

For now, can we just agree to disagree?
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: Cheerful on November 09, 2020, 07:03:20 AM
Quote from: downer on November 09, 2020, 04:44:35 AM
But it is important to always keep in mind the inherent dangers of getting advice from strangers on the internet.

+1

Smallcleanrat, sounds like you are making good progress with your treatment, celebrate this achievement!  Keep going.

Please be careful with feedback you're getting on this thread.  People here do not and cannot know critically important details that you, your therapists, doctors, people in your treatment group, and your partner know.

Some of the advice and feedback you're getting here is highly questionable and not from experts trained in mental health and relationships.  Something to be super cautious about with the fora:  a poster can "pose" as an authority when they are actually speaking well beyond their scope of expertise.  EDIT:  This is so serious that I'm going to go ahead and say "stop listening to polly_mer."

In some ways, your posts here are similar to journaling which I understand is often recommended by therapists.  But, most importantly, please continue to lean on and rely on experts who know your situation and what is best for you rather than Internet people.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: marshwiggle on November 09, 2020, 08:31:07 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 06, 2020, 04:21:41 PM

Quote from: marshwiggle on November 03, 2020, 05:50:16 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 02, 2020, 02:50:08 PM

When I first posted, my aim was mainly to see if these things seemed serious to other people. My gut initially told me yes, therapists seemed to be telling me "it depends," but now I'm getting responses on the fora saying yes.

I haven't commented yet, but no one has brought this up so I will.

Have you discussed relationships with friends, family members, etc.  with your therapist? The reason I ask is that you've mentioned problematic relationships with professors and colleagues, and it occurred to me that if you haven't identified any single extended relationship as healthy and supportive it's hard to tell if your expectations are reasonable or not.

It seems at least possible that the therapist saying "it depends" may be based on the difficulty of differentiating your relationship from your perception of your relationship.



It's a fair point, marshwiggle. But this is actually something I've been thinking about and discussing for quite a while.

I have had relationships with healthy and supportive dynamics, just not consistently so. Things fluctuate, but since COVID there seems to be a lot more relationships downs than ups. I think this is the first time in my life practically every relationship has had a major downturn within the same period of time. Usually, even if one relationship hit a snag I had at least one other that was ok. Now it just seems like every type of relationship I have is going downhill.

(As always, what I say is based on my perception of what you describe, which may not be  accurate.)

I would say that I have had few major disappointments in relationships. It's not because I have been phenominally lucky in the people I've come in contact with; it's partly that "I tend to keep relationship expectations narrow. (As opposed to low.) For instance, I've had work colleagues for decades whom I enjoy working with, but we don't sociallize other than at department-related events.  I have neighbours with whom I have pleasant conversations "over the fence", but with whom I have no other social interaction. I have good relationships with all of my adult children, but I don't expect them to come to me for advice about major life decisions, and they don't come to me for finacial help even though I am more finacially secure. Since getting married, I have set aside certain interests, types of food, etc. as they aren't popular with my spouse (and my spouse has made similar changes). 

When I have had very unpleasant experiences with people, I have as much as possible ceased (or at least minimized) contact with them as much as possible.

The point in all of these is that I have not tried to force these relationships (or the people in them) into what I might have wished them to be.


Quote
Professor: When your TA is highly distressed and explicitly states suicidal intent, don't just say goodbye, close the chat, and go about your business. Take a minute or so at least to contact someone...*anyone*...who might be able to help that person. Especially don't contact that TA a month later asking for a favor cleaning up a mess the other TA caused without so much as a "Hi, how are you?" Some kind of greeting is basic politeness, whether that person was in crisis the last time you spoke or not.

Labmates: If the reason you have been pulling away from me lately is because my health issues have made you uncomfortable (verified this with one of the labmates), that's disappointing, but I can accept it. And planning an end-of-term lunch together without inviting me...again, disappointing, but understandable if my presence makes you uncomfortable. But did you really have to be so blatant about it? Talking about it right in front of me, picking up your coats all as a group and giving me sidelong glances as you went out the door?

These situations put pressure on professional relationships to provide much more than would normally be required.

If a grad student had a car breakdown on the way to work, so that they couldn't be there to TA a lab, it would be reasonable to ask another grad student (who is or has been a TA for the same course) to cover, with a promise to return the favour in the future.

If a person received news that a close family member was diagnosed with a terminal illness, having a colleague sit down over to coffee (at work) to talk during that initial shock would not be unreasonable.

These are examples of accomodations that wouldn't be unreasonable precisely because they are very limited in scope and context.


Quote
I do suspect there are elements about the way I socialize and try to connect with people which may be alienating sometimes; I could certainly aim to improve my people skills. I just don't think unreasonably high expectations of others is a major issue at this point. I've gotten to a point where I'm reluctant to reduce my expectations any further, as I feel I would be getting more entrenched into a mindset of thinking I don't deserve the same level of common courtesy as everybody else.

My apologies if this sounds insensitive, but the mental health challenges you have described suggest that giving you the help you need may require much more than other people are expected to provide in other similar relationships. So I'm not sure "common courtesy" applies in all of those cases.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: Caracal on November 09, 2020, 08:42:19 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 09, 2020, 05:00:09 AM
Hi, Caracal.

I...uh...What did I write to make you think I wanted 1) universal judgment? Or 2) someone to "tell me what to do" (this is the opposite of what I wrote! People are already *telling* me what to do. I said I needed to process what people were telling me so that I clearly saw the reasoning behind it in order to own the decision and have the conviction to take action. Just doing it because someone *told* me it was the best action is a bad idea.)

I know people can't have the full picture. That's why initially I didn't try to ask for evaluations on the whole relationship, and asked about a specific issue.

Quote from: Caracal on November 09, 2020, 04:19:35 AM
When other people evaluate your relationship, they do so by their own metrics of what they want.

Yes! Exactly! That's why it's helpful. What works for one relationship won't work for another. Knowing a bit more about the different dynamics in other people's relationships gives me a better sense of the possibilities.

I thought responses would be more in the form of "If it were me..." because I figures it was impossible to give enough description of my own relationship for anyone to judge my own as a whole.

I feel like something's gone drastically wrong with how I communicate. It really feels like I'm losing my mind. I think I'm saying one thing, but people seem to be getting a very different message. I don't recall this ever happening to such an extent. I'm actually pretty freaked out.

No, I don't think you're losing your mind or that you're blindly accepting advice. What I meant was that sometimes soliciting too much advice can be counterproductive. You end up spending too much time trying to think about the advice and whether it applies and it can be easy to get stuck. I think academics can be particularly prone to this problem. We tend to think the thing that will solve everything is more information and more perspectives.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 09, 2020, 01:29:23 PM
marshwiggle, leaving the first two examples you highlighted alone for now. Want to ask you to clarify what you are referring to in your last paragraph. Are you talking mostly about those two examples or are you including the rest of my examples as well?

1) cancel instead of standing someone up when you back out of plans (seems like pretty basic courtesy to me)
2) don't cut people off when they're talking especially if you directly asked for their input; the way he treated me all term, almost like I was invisible, in contrast to his warm and friendly he was with the other TA (who ended up screwing him over); I recognize it is in no way the professor's responsibility to care about my well-being, but the way he treated me in contrast to his favorite was really kicking me when I was down; he would chat with her, ask her how her research was going, if she needed a break from TA responsibilities to focus on grad school or take a rest, ask how this that or the other was going in her life; I had to wave my hands and shout sometimes in meetings just to give him info or ask questions so I could do my job; sometimes I had to send him the same email 3 or 4 times because he doesn't read them all (as in ever; had to get lucky and send the message during the time slot he actually decides to check his inbox); with all the difficulty I had getting his attention, it was like begging him for the favor of doing my TA work
3) even if you don't think it's fair to have expected my professor to give a rat's ass about me when I was suicidal, what do you think of him calling me a month later (after my TA contract had ended) to ask for a favor? And no greeting either; straight into "I may need your help dealing with a class issue. I'll phone you and explain the situation."
4) needing medical help in the lab can happen to anybody. slip and fall. Chemical spill. Asthma attack. Passing out from low blood sugar. Things happen. It's why there is a giant poster on the wall with first aid info and the number for emergency medical services. Or is it only reasonable to expect people to help normal people? The mental case can fend for herself. Maybe whatever it is will finish her off and we won't have to deal with her anymore...

Would you recognize any of these as falling below standards of common courtesy or basic consideration?
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: marshwiggle on November 09, 2020, 03:15:28 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 09, 2020, 01:29:23 PM
marshwiggle, leaving the first two examples you highlighted alone for now. Want to ask you to clarify what you are referring to in your last paragraph. Are you talking mostly about those two examples or are you including the rest of my examples as well?


You're correct. Those two examples specifically seemed like they might be expecting more than is reasonable. Your other examples were more reasonable. (In particular, the behaviour of the profs you've mentioned seems kind of dense; responsible TAs don't grow on trees, so ignoring you while paying attention to the other one is not good.)

The main thing that caught my attention was the idea that many (most?) relationships you describe seem to have disappointed you significantly at some time. (And as I indicated, what I'm picturing as I read may be skewed, so someone who actually observes you in person might see the situation quite differently.)

Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: polly_mer on November 09, 2020, 03:40:51 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 09, 2020, 07:00:21 AM
You don't even bother to say you think I'm lying or deluded, you just ignore.

Those details are unimportant to the main point.

A frequent example I use is watching someone juggle chainsaws while riding a unicycle in heavy traffic.  We can discuss whether blue stars or red stripes are better decorations, but the main point is to get put of the street and put down the chainsaws.

I will refrain from engaging on this and all other threads since you'd rather have peace.

Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 09, 2020, 03:59:57 PM
Peace is fine. The other threads haven't really been an issue. Just this one. But if you're sick of talking to me, ok.

Polly: Do something useful.
SCR: Relationship group.
Polly: Relationships groups aren't useful.
SCR: They have been useful to me in the past.
Polly: That's unimportant.

Polly: Your cat is proof you don't care about your boyfriend.
SCR: What? How?
Polly: Forget the cat, it's unimportant.

I think this is the most confusing online exchange I've ever had. I'm sorry we couldn't understand each other better on this.

Peace, polly_mer.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 09, 2020, 07:45:14 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 09, 2020, 03:15:28 PM
The main thing that caught my attention was the idea that many (most?) relationships you describe seem to have disappointed you significantly at some time. (And as I indicated, what I'm picturing as I read may be skewed, so someone who actually observes you in person might see the situation quite differently.)

That's fair. Social interactions are not my strongest skillset; some of this is just from having to unlearn a lot of things I was taught during my upbringing and replace them with  more functional ways to relate to people once I hit adulthood. Gained a lot of ground since then, but I think it's kind of like learning a language as an adult; much more effort than for a kid, and most likely never going to be as fluent.

People I have gotten close to said it takes a little while to "figure me out" but it's worth it once you get past that. They always have trouble being more specific, so I'm guessing it's subtle nonverbal things. Just think shy, awkward and nerdy. And since I've spent most of my time in environments with a lot of other shy, awkward, and nerdy people, I think some of it may be from other people's social inhibitions. "Oh, yeah. I did see you on the floor. I wondered if I should ask if you were okay but...um...I wasn't sure if maybe you wanted to be left alone. So...um...if I see you on the floor again, do you want me to...ask you if you need help?" Paraphrase from an actual conversation.

And some disappointments are just dashed hopes, not expectations. A friend moves to a different country, gets married, and has a family so we've drifted apart and barely correspond anymore. I can feel sad about getting crowded out of the friend's life by new priorities and losing the closeness we had without thinking the friend has done anything wrong by me.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 10, 2020, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 09, 2020, 08:31:07 AM
Since getting married, I have set aside certain interests, types of food, etc. as they aren't popular with my spouse (and my spouse has made similar changes). 

Random Question: Why would your spouse not liking some types of food lead to you setting those foods aside? If you eat something spouse doesn't like, spouse doesn't have to eat it as well, do they? Is it like, you no longer go to certain types of restaurants because spouse wouldn't enjoy them? Or are they foods with strong aromas that would bother spouse if you had them at home?
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: marshwiggle on November 11, 2020, 04:11:30 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 10, 2020, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 09, 2020, 08:31:07 AM
Since getting married, I have set aside certain interests, types of food, etc. as they aren't popular with my spouse (and my spouse has made similar changes). 

Random Question: Why would your spouse not liking some types of food lead to you setting those foods aside? If you eat something spouse doesn't like, spouse doesn't have to eat it as well, do they? Is it like, you no longer go to certain types of restaurants because spouse wouldn't enjoy them? Or are they foods with strong aromas that would bother spouse if you had them at home?

Avoiding restaurants would be one thing, but even at home doing things together mostly outweighs doing things individually. Finding things that both people enjoy sharing together is generally more rewarding than engaging in things independently. (There are exceptions, but that's the general principle.)

Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 11, 2020, 04:28:27 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 09, 2020, 08:31:07 AM
My apologies if this sounds insensitive, but the mental health challenges you have described suggest that giving you the help you need may require much more than other people are expected to provide in other similar relationships. So I'm not sure "common courtesy" applies in all of those cases.

The fact you bothered to worry at all that it might sound insensitive is a form of sensitivity. It's a harsh sentiment, but it's also a reality of having chronic health issues (don't think this is limited to mental health issues). I'm acutely aware that when I am unwell, I'm not the only one who deals with consequences. Not my first rodeo. When I'm well, I have good relationships with friends and coworkers and professors. When I'm unwell, relationships wither and die, and I have to start all over with building connections once I'm well again. Knowing that there are significant periods of time in which maintaining a relationship with me may become more trouble than it's worth is why I get suicidal in the first place.

People try to say that belief you are a burden is a distortion of reality caused by the depression. I don't buy this. I think burden, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder; it's a subjective judgment. If someone feels their relationship with you is more burdensome than valuable, then it is. I don't want to make this post too long with the details, so I'll just say I prioritize mitigating the extra stress or effort involved in having any kind of association with me. More often than not, I *turn down* offers for help because I don't want to add any extra strain to anyone else's life. Even with my parents and partner, who swear up and down they don't want me to suffer alone, that they'll be there for me no matter what...I know from experience, they can be entirely sincere without really being equipped to keep their promises.

Quote from: marshwiggle on November 09, 2020, 08:31:07 AM
These situations put pressure on professional relationships to provide much more than would normally be required.

About the two examples you identified:

The labmates: You bolded the sentence about the labmates pulling away from me socially, so I'm not sure if you think that was the expectation-related disappointment. It wasn't. I said in my post I don't expect people to force themselves to socialize with me if they are uncomfortable. I was talking specifically about making my exclusion a bit less obvious for *one* event on *one* day (so even if it would have been some effort beyond normal, I think being limited to a single day would preclude it from being *much* more effort than a normal labmate relationship). They'd excluded me from lunches before; it was this specific one that *really* hurt. It was an end-of-term social lunch on the last day of in-person labwork before we had to shutdown for COVID. They left me alone in an empty lab. I can think of about half a dozen ways they could have had their get together, left me out of it, but been more discreet about it. Making it so obvious I wasn't invited, wasn't part of the group anymore, on the cusp of an indeterminately long quarantine, seemed completely unnecessary and unkind. I don't believe they were intentionally being mean, but it did seem quite thoughtless. They were already ostracizing me for something I couldn't control (to an extreme degree; averting their eyes to avoid even being expected to say "hey" or exchange head nods when we passed each other in the hallway). For this one day they could have spared *some* thought for my feelings. If it's not unreasonable to expect someone to have a cup of coffee with you and provide friendly company when you have just received devastating news, is it so unreasonable to expect a little consideration on this single day?

It wasn't even *mental* health issues that started the exclusion.

There's another half to this story involving the *labmates'* expectations of *me*, which they never voiced (and I never would have guessed; some of them were real headscratchers). I only found out much later after two of my labmates (the ones I'd been closest to before everyone decided to pretend I was invisible) started interacting with me again and filled me in. When your coworkers are mostly in their early-to-mid-twenties, maybe it's to be expected they may also be grappling with the line between reasonable and unreasonable expectations.

The Professor: In the abstract sense of professor-student relationships I agree with your assessment about 90%. I agree that having to respond to a student's emergency situation by calling the appropriate services and informing them of the situation is not a day-to-day part of the job description. I agree that faculty should not be the standard go-to person for students in distress. I disagree that ignoring a student's emergency situation is not your problem when you know about it, but have no indication that anyone else does. My university frequently emails seminar schedules and guideline documents related to recognizing someone in distress and that the recommended best practices are for contacting the appropriate help. Expecting someone to report an emergency situation does expect them to potentially dealt with a stressor beyond what they normally handle. But if your involvement ends as soon as you've passed the problem on to the relevant people, I don't know that I would call it *much* more work. Even making the phone call, conveying the bare-bones information, and then completely washing your hands of the matter (no sticking around to make sure help arrives; no messaging the student later to ask if they're ok; you are done) is doing something. Is even this level of help an unfair expectation?

Is it only unreasonable if the help required is related to mental health? There are medical issues that can manifest as erratic behavior and be mistaken for mental illness: dysregulated blood sugar, some types of seizures, stroke, infection...is it still unfair to expect a professor to call for help if they witness this? Is it unfair to expect a professor to call for help if they see someone fall and break an ankle? If they see someone clutch their chest and collapse? These are all beyond the normal scope of a professor's professional role.

I posted about this scenario in another thread, and while people did say it would be understandable if the prof didn't act (lots of people just wouldn't really know what to do), it was still reasonable to expect that person to pick up the phone and alert the appropriate people of a student in crisis.

For this particular professor, there were reasons for feeling especially let down. For one, he was quite solicitous of the students and the other TA and even me to an extent. Twice he scrapped half of his lecture to give the students a forum to express their anxieties, frustrations, etc... related to COVID and to the protests. He would mention in TA meetings he was feeling the mental health effects of prolonged isolating; he would ask me and Other TA how we were holding up (but was often noticeably less interested in my answers than with hers). He even offered to make referrals (he is an MD) for some of the students who emailed us asking for extensions due to health issues; said he would be happy to help them get connected to good care. So...he kind of took it upon himself to go beyond normal requirements.

Late in the term, when he asked me how things were coming along with a few of the tasks he had asked me and other TA to "collaborate" on, I expressed frustration over the impossibility of collaborating with someone who hasn't answered a single one of my texts or emails in weeks. He chided me to try to be understanding and sympathetic, saying Other TA was having a very stressful term and may be going through hardships we didn't know about ("she's not responding much to me either, so don't take it personally"). Frankly, even though I know my mental state is NOT his responsibility, I don't think I would have deteriorated to the point I did if it hadn't been for his behavior.

I understand all the faculty were stressed past normal due to all the adaptations that had to be made last minute due to COVID. So, I can think of plenty of reasons that don't include malice to explain why I had such a hard time getting the most basic level of consideration. And Other TA had been a student in his classes previously; so if he's more interested in the wellbeing of someone he already knows than of someone he just met that term, I get it. But three meetings in a row he closed the chat on me when I was trying to say something (including the final lecture, when he opened the floor to the TAs to say any closing remarks and farewells to the students; I think you can guess how that went). I sent him some messages asking whether he had five minutes to chat sometime because there were some course-related questions I never got to ask him in the last meeting, and I also had just wanted to quickly say a proper goodbye. I've TA'ed for three other profs, and there was always a quick farewell, thanks for a good term-type chat at the end of the last meeting (1-2 minutes maximum); I was desperately looking forward to that little bit of acknowledgment and sense of closure. Heard nothing from him until a week later when he texted to tell me many students had taken incompletes so assignments would be coming in throughout summer and fall. He had never made answer keys for the homework problems he assigned and told me it would be awesome if I could either be available to grade or else send him the answer keys. I had made keys, but they were all in shorthand for my own use. To be usable to someone else, they would have to be rewritten almost from scratch. It was the last straw. I broke.

I guess, because of all this, I felt like I had earned a bit more than normal consideration from this specific individual.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: Caracal on November 11, 2020, 05:12:31 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 10, 2020, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 09, 2020, 08:31:07 AM
Since getting married, I have set aside certain interests, types of food, etc. as they aren't popular with my spouse (and my spouse has made similar changes). 

Random Question: Why would your spouse not liking some types of food lead to you setting those foods aside? If you eat something spouse doesn't like, spouse doesn't have to eat it as well, do they? Is it like, you no longer go to certain types of restaurants because spouse wouldn't enjoy them? Or are they foods with strong aromas that would bother spouse if you had them at home?

If you're jointly cooking and eating food it doesn't really make much sense to make something the other person doesn't like. I like really spicy food-my wife has what most people would consider a reasonable tolerance for heat and doesn't like it when the food makes her mouth hurt. When I'm making dinner for us, I try to keep the heat at a level that she'll eat. I'd argue that adults should try to only have a few things they really don't like, not a long list of foods they think are gross, but that's probably a different discussion.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: Caracal on November 11, 2020, 06:15:51 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 11, 2020, 04:28:27 AM

People try to say that belief you are a burden is a distortion of reality caused by the depression. I don't buy this. I think burden, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder; it's a subjective judgment. If someone feels their relationship with you is more burdensome than valuable, then it is. I don't want to make this post too long with the details, so I'll just say I prioritize mitigating the extra stress or effort involved in having any kind of association with me. More often than not, I *turn down* offers for help because I don't want to add any extra strain to anyone else's life. Even with my parents and partner, who swear up and down they don't want me to suffer alone, that they'll be there for me no matter what...I know from experience, they can be entirely sincere without really being equipped to keep their promises.



I think there is a certain amount of distorted thinking here. It might help to think of mental health as like anything else in a relationship. We all bring a certain amount of baggage and damage because we are human. To be in a functional relationship you have to find ways to manage that stuff. People in your life can help you through times of crisis, but they can't just manage a perpetual crisis.

I think you're being too hard on yourself because you know that. You recognized that you needed more help than family and friends could provide and you have taken proactive steps to get that help. You aren't doomed to  be too much trouble for everyone. I don't deal with depression, but I know that with anxiety one of the ways it distorts my thinking is that it always feels like my current level of anxiety is going to be perpetual. When I actually think about it, I quickly realize that it changes all the time-the periods of high anxiety don't last forever.

There's a separate question about your actual relationships. Maybe you aren't in a good space right now to be in a long term relationship with a partner. Maybe the relationship with your current boyfriend has run its course-or maybe not! Perhaps, you need to find ways of making different sorts of friendships where you don't feel like your mental health problems are just going to be seen as too much trouble. But none of this is about your ultimate ability to form lasting attachments with people.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 24, 2020, 11:02:20 PM
Quote from: Caracal on November 11, 2020, 06:15:51 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 11, 2020, 04:28:27 AM

People try to say that belief you are a burden is a distortion of reality caused by the depression. I don't buy this. I think burden, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder; it's a subjective judgment. If someone feels their relationship with you is more burdensome than valuable, then it is. I don't want to make this post too long with the details, so I'll just say I prioritize mitigating the extra stress or effort involved in having any kind of association with me. More often than not, I *turn down* offers for help because I don't want to add any extra strain to anyone else's life. Even with my parents and partner, who swear up and down they don't want me to suffer alone, that they'll be there for me no matter what...I know from experience, they can be entirely sincere without really being equipped to keep their promises.



I think there is a certain amount of distorted thinking here. It might help to think of mental health as like anything else in a relationship. We all bring a certain amount of baggage and damage because we are human. To be in a functional relationship you have to find ways to manage that stuff. People in your life can help you through times of crisis, but they can't just manage a perpetual crisis.

I think you're being too hard on yourself because you know that. You recognized that you needed more help than family and friends could provide and you have taken proactive steps to get that help. You aren't doomed to  be too much trouble for everyone. I don't deal with depression, but I know that with anxiety one of the ways it distorts my thinking is that it always feels like my current level of anxiety is going to be perpetual. When I actually think about it, I quickly realize that it changes all the time-the periods of high anxiety don't last forever.

There's a separate question about your actual relationships. Maybe you aren't in a good space right now to be in a long term relationship with a partner. Maybe the relationship with your current boyfriend has run its course-or maybe not! Perhaps, you need to find ways of making different sorts of friendships where you don't feel like your mental health problems are just going to be seen as too much trouble. But none of this is about your ultimate ability to form lasting attachments with people.

Caracal, I appreciated the insights you brought to this comment.

I had a few scattered thoughts in response; brain's a little reluctant to stitch them together coherently.

1) You don't have to be in perpetual crisis to be considered too much trouble. Some people will never trust the good times again if they fear another crisis is possible. Some people will reject you preemptively based on a diagnosis (not limited to mental health). Sometimes I can take action to improve the situation; sometimes not. I'm not ultimately in control of other people's tolerance thresholds.

2) I suspect things with my labmates will improve as social distancing restrictions loosen and we are physically sharing labspace again. They first started distancing because I had a flare of severe tics lasting several months, and those have calmed down a lot. From the labmate who resumed friendly communications with me, I learned they still like me and would still enjoy hanging out socially. He says they periodically ask him how I'm doing, and that I could probably make them feel easier about interacting with me again by explaining something of my situation. I haven't worked out how to approach that yet.

3) One thing I wish people would not make me responsible for is deciding how much help to accept when it is being offered. People often offer help reflexively or out of a sense of social obligation. Unless it is a small favor, I say no most of the time. I don't want to put someone in the position of having to honor an offer they didn't want to make in the first place (and may have been expecting me to refuse). But it might be easier on everyone involved if people only offered help they were willing to give.

It gets especially awkward when the person keeps refusing to take "No, thank you" for an answer. Then, in order to satisfy them, I feel obligated to accept help even if I may feel uncomfortable or even if I find the "help" decidedly unhelpful. And a few people take on the role of martyr, insisting they be allowed to help, that they're more than happy to do it, then later complaining about how tired and stressed they are with everything they're doing for you (even if you've explicitly asked them to stop). Through experience, I've worked out some diplomatic ways to nip these kinds of thing in the bud, but it can really drain energy.

4) I *have* had a few friends recently ask if there was anything they could do for me (not knowing details but knowing I'm struggling). They seemed genuinely relieved when I said just keeping in touch (friendly chat about work, hobbies, pets, family...) helps a great deal; it's nice just to have that connection. A couple have followed through on this (brief internet chat a few times per month), and I'm grateful for that. I'm not yet in a fit state to be forging brand new connections, so nurturing the relationships I've already established seems to make the most sense at moment.

5) RE: "It's not forever." I have certainly gotten a lot of mileage out of this mantra; it's helped me with managing severe anxiety as well. But I'm at a point where I feel it's getting more critical to acknowledge that my diagnosis and history are consistent with lifetime vulnerability to severe (and treatment-resistant) mood disorder. It's something I'll always have to manage, so it will always have the potential to affect those around me.

It's a topic that comes up often with other people in treatment: when and how to disclose chronic health issues (physical or mental) to anyone (friend, partner, coworker, etc...) There are too many variables involved for a one-size-fits-all answer. But I suppose that's true of lots of relationship elements. That's kind of why I like to collect lots of stories from other people and...I don't know...explore the solution set?
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: quasihumanist on July 16, 2021, 10:06:23 PM
Well, I came back to The Fora to revive this thread, so...

A couple months ago I got back in touch with a friend from college (who has since married and divorced her boyfriend at the time).  We've exchanged a bunch of e-mails, and I'm planning to visit her for a day or two some time during a road trip I'm planning.

I might be interested.  I think she might be interested, but who knows over e-mail.  Of course one of us might take one look at the other and find them completely unattractive.

Wish me luck?
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: jimbogumbo on July 17, 2021, 06:07:23 AM
Good luck!
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: ciao_yall on July 17, 2021, 07:21:46 AM
Quote from: quasihumanist on July 16, 2021, 10:06:23 PM


Wish me luck?

Wishing you that the feelings are mutual, whatever they are.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: mamselle on July 17, 2021, 08:48:47 AM
I hope your shared time, spent in contact of whatever kind, is mutually pleasant and satisfying.

M.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: fleabite on July 17, 2021, 09:49:48 AM
Fingers crossed for you!
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: spork on July 18, 2021, 02:52:40 PM
Go for it! Better to have opened the box to see what donuts were inside than to have never opened the box at all. Or whatever it was that Shakespeare said.

Relationship of a slightly different sort: a few days ago my wife and I drove to a nearby city to eat dinner with someone I first met thirty-seven years ago while in college. Born in another country, stateless, and struggling to adjust to a new environment, she became a close friend. We ended up getting PhDs in different fields and living on opposite side of the planet for most of the intervening time. But we kept in touch and last saw each other in person eleven years ago. We had a wonderful time. The pandemic has prompted me to reconnect with several old friends like her, and I'm now thinking of planning international travel over the next few years to meet up with them where they are located.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: adel9216 on July 18, 2021, 09:00:29 PM
Is it me or it's hard to find a male partner when you're a female PhD candidate?
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: ergative on July 19, 2021, 01:59:45 AM
Quote from: adel9216 on July 18, 2021, 09:00:29 PM
Is it me or it's hard to find a male partner when you're a female PhD candidate?

Inside or outside your program?

If inside, I imagine that's field-dependent. A lot more male potential in computer science than English lit, I imagine.

If outside, I imagine that's work-life-balance dependent. Easier to find companionship at your local anime/macrame/rock climbing club if you have time to go regularly.

That being said, I remember my mother once commenting that college is the best time to find a partner, because the college campus contains a set of pre-selected young people of a similar age who are mostly unattached, while by grad school they've started pairing off. In retrospect, the idea that college admissions pre-selects eligible partners for you has a whole lot of societal assumptions to unpack, but I think she's probably right about the general trend. I met my husband in college, and four of my five cohort-mates in my PhD program arrived pre-attached as well.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: apl68 on July 19, 2021, 07:21:32 AM
Quote from: adel9216 on July 18, 2021, 09:00:29 PM
Is it me or it's hard to find a male partner when you're a female PhD candidate?

No doubt.  I found it impossible as a male PhD candidate to find a female partner.  In grad school you have very little time, very little money, and very limited opportunities for social contact.  Our department was not overwhelmingly male, but nobody ever seemed to get together.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: downer on July 19, 2021, 07:36:16 AM
It depends on what you are looking for and how much effort you can put into finding it. It also depends on location -- the more people around, the more candidates.

So much dating depends on apps these days, so it's also partly about finding that that isn't a total waste of time.
Title: Re: The Relationship Thread
Post by: adel9216 on July 19, 2021, 04:59:41 PM
Quote from: ergative on July 19, 2021, 01:59:45 AM
Quote from: adel9216 on July 18, 2021, 09:00:29 PM
Is it me or it's hard to find a male partner when you're a female PhD candidate?

Inside or outside your program?


Both..