News:

Welcome to the new (and now only) Fora!

Main Menu

Coronavirus

Started by bacardiandlime, January 30, 2020, 03:20:28 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Vkw10

My university instituted a new online form for requesting COVID-19 workplace modification. They've stated clearly that this form isn't for ADA accommodations, but is being funneled through ADA officer because he's authorized to review medical information. So far, fine.

Supervisors received urgent emails with Adobe documents to sign off on, stating that they would provide "COVID-19 workplace modifications while university is above stage 1 pandemic response." Lots of forms were signed immediately. Then employees got emails telling them modification approved, submit 100% telecommuting form with duration of "one year, automatic renewal with satisfactory annual review." Chaos ensued.

No guidance to supervisors, no explanation of what the modification would be or outline of process, just a hurry-up-and-sign email. We had faculty teaching nursing clinics, student workers, groundskeepers, bench scientists, residence hall staff, and a VP approved for 100% remote work indefinitely. Chaos, because process was rushed through for faculty teaching Summer II, then expanded to everyone in an effort to be fair and efficient.

My university needs to s-l-o-w down. Hard to believe I want them to slow down, but hasty responses like this one are causing problems. We're four months into what's likely to be at least 18 months of dealing with pandemic. We need to shift out of panic mode and think processes through before implementing them.

Hmm, maybe this should have gone in venting thread.
Enthusiasm is not a skill set. (MH)

AmLitHist

My student is still waiting on results of her COVID test from last week. Local news said tests are taking 2-3 weeks for results right now here in metro St. Louis.  Cases and hospitalizations are on the rise, but nothing like the current hot spots, so I can only imagine how long people there are waiting for reports.  She emailed me while back at the urgent care for more breathing meds.  I'm worried for her.

secundem_artem

I travel to some of the more remote parts of the world and have received the Yellow Fever vaccine.  It's considered one of the more adverse effects prone vaccines and yet I had only a bit of mild discomfort.  The new Shingrix vaccine for shingles is pretty much guaranteed to have some injection site swelling and pain - I found the pain to be mild.  The only vaccine I would have concerns about (until I do some more reading) would be for dengue fever, since it can heighten the effects of dengue caused by a different strain.

I sit on a state-wide committee to promote vaccines and vaccinations.  The vaccine hesitancy discussed on this board is something we are trying to find a way to address. 

It seems that the lack of trust in conventional medicine/big pharma by people with advanced degrees described here is just the flip side of the coin that has "I love the poorly educated"  Trumpists having no trust in the mainstream media. 

Were it up to me, I would take Andrew Wakefield (the British quack MD who first claimed vaccines cause autism) out behind the shed and beat him half to death with an axe handle.  All medicines/vaccines have side effects.  Most can be managed.  In a high enough concentration, Oxygen is toxic. 
Funeral by funeral, the academy advances

Caracal

Quote from: secundem_artem on July 09, 2020, 08:49:59 AM


It seems that the lack of trust in conventional medicine/big pharma by people with advanced degrees described here is just the flip side of the coin that has "I love the poorly educated"  Trumpists having no trust in the mainstream media. 


The part I don't understand is how selective the distrust is. In the broadest sense, I suppose I'm skeptical about biomedicine too. However, that's really more of a philosophical position about truth and authority. As a practical matter, I obviously live my life within the system. Most anti vaccine and vaccine hesitant people do too. In fact, the arguments against vaccines are mostly firmly within a biomedical paradigm. It is mostly about just choosing to believe in certain kinds of discredited science. You see the same thing in this conversation. If you're going to go get tested if you think you have covid and you would go to the hospital with a severe case and listen to doctors about your treatment, it seems odd to say that you would substitute your own judgement for all these medical professionals you rely on when it comes to a vaccine to prevent it.

Puget

Quote from: Caracal on July 09, 2020, 09:36:21 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 09, 2020, 08:49:59 AM


It seems that the lack of trust in conventional medicine/big pharma by people with advanced degrees described here is just the flip side of the coin that has "I love the poorly educated"  Trumpists having no trust in the mainstream media. 


The part I don't understand is how selective the distrust is. In the broadest sense, I suppose I'm skeptical about biomedicine too. However, that's really more of a philosophical position about truth and authority. As a practical matter, I obviously live my life within the system. Most anti vaccine and vaccine hesitant people do too. In fact, the arguments against vaccines are mostly firmly within a biomedical paradigm. It is mostly about just choosing to believe in certain kinds of discredited science. You see the same thing in this conversation. If you're going to go get tested if you think you have covid and you would go to the hospital with a severe case and listen to doctors about your treatment, it seems odd to say that you would substitute your own judgement for all these medical professionals you rely on when it comes to a vaccine to prevent it.

I'd make a distinction here between the merely vaccine hesitant (who are mostly as you describe) and the hard-core anti-vaxxers, who tend to be skeptical and fearful of much of modern bioscience, and often science and authority more broadly (from both the left and the right-- the memoir Educated is a facilitating look at this in a fundamentalist Mormon community). Attempts to persuade the former may work because they are essentially open to evaluating scientific evidence, they just are misinterpreting the data or believing non-credible sources. The latter are not really persuadable because they interpret any credible evidence as propaganda, part of the plot of "them" (big pharma, the government, whatever), to hide the truth. It's the same thinking that drives other sorts of conspiracy theories.

I say this as someone who was raised by a vaccine hesitant hippy mother who delayed some of my childhood vaccines (I had to get some missed ones before college) and believed that herbs and such were better than most drugs (but would use them when really necessary). She now regrets most of that, and worked really hard to get the new shingles vaccine when they kept being out of it. In fact, she's now the one always asking if I got my flu shot (yes mom, on campus, like every year). I think my becoming a scientist and harping on her about the data had at least a little to do with shifting her opinions, but I don't really know what did it-- I should ask.

So people do change, but I'm afraid there is a group that is not persuadable and we'll just have to hope there aren't enough of them to ruin herd immunity.
"Never get separated from your lunch. Never get separated from your friends. Never climb up anything you can't climb down."
–Best Colorado Peak Hikes

downer

Did you see the opinion piece in today's NYT?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/09/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-skepticism.html

QuoteAccording to recent polls, half to three-quarters of Americans intend to get the vaccine if one becomes available — woefully short of what we'll need to protect our communities.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."—Sinclair Lewis

Puget

Quote from: downer on July 09, 2020, 10:43:04 AM
Did you see the opinion piece in today's NYT?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/09/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-skepticism.html

QuoteAccording to recent polls, half to three-quarters of Americans intend to get the vaccine if one becomes available — woefully short of what we'll need to protect our communities.

That is very concerning, but I'm somewhat hopeful those numbers will come up with education of the merely hesitant and actual choices between getting vaccinated and being able to go back to something like normal life, or having to self-isolate indefinitley. It's one thing to hesitate when it is all theoretical, but an actual decision point  may clarify things for some folks. Also, since there are unlikely to be enough doses for everyone immediately, there will probably be quite some time when only those at highest risk (medical personnel, nursing home residents, etc.) can get it, but people can see that it is safe and effective. We'll clearly never get to 100% but hopefully better than 50-75%.
"Never get separated from your lunch. Never get separated from your friends. Never climb up anything you can't climb down."
–Best Colorado Peak Hikes

Vkw10

Quote from: Caracal on July 09, 2020, 09:36:21 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 09, 2020, 08:49:59 AM


It seems that the lack of trust in conventional medicine/big pharma by people with advanced degrees described here is just the flip side of the coin that has "I love the poorly educated"  Trumpists having no trust in the mainstream media. 


The part I don't understand is how selective the distrust is. In the broadest sense, I suppose I'm skeptical about biomedicine too. However, that's really more of a philosophical position about truth and authority. As a practical matter, I obviously live my life within the system. Most anti vaccine and vaccine hesitant people do too. In fact, the arguments against vaccines are mostly firmly within a biomedical paradigm.

I suspect some of the vaccine hesitance expressed on this board is less a distrust of scientists and more a distrust of government. I distrust many of my country's current elected leadership. Those elected leaders set policy and decide budgets and appoint executives at government agencies. Distrusting elected leadership erodes trust in government agencies like the FDA. That transference of distrust is a subconscious process, not easy to recognize in oneself.
Enthusiasm is not a skill set. (MH)

dismalist

Quote from: Vkw10 on July 09, 2020, 06:28:42 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 09, 2020, 09:36:21 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 09, 2020, 08:49:59 AM


It seems that the lack of trust in conventional medicine/big pharma by people with advanced degrees described here is just the flip side of the coin that has "I love the poorly educated"  Trumpists having no trust in the mainstream media. 


The part I don't understand is how selective the distrust is. In the broadest sense, I suppose I'm skeptical about biomedicine too. However, that's really more of a philosophical position about truth and authority. As a practical matter, I obviously live my life within the system. Most anti vaccine and vaccine hesitant people do too. In fact, the arguments against vaccines are mostly firmly within a biomedical paradigm.

I suspect some of the vaccine hesitance expressed on this board is less a distrust of scientists and more a distrust of government. I distrust many of my country's current elected leadership. Those elected leaders set policy and decide budgets and appoint executives at government agencies. Distrusting elected leadership erodes trust in government agencies like the FDA. That transference of distrust is a subconscious process, not easy to recognize in oneself.

In any case, Charlie Darwin will take care of this! :-)
That's not even wrong!
--Wolfgang Pauli

Ruralguy

More will get the vaccine because employers will likely make it mandatory.

Vkw10

Quote from: Ruralguy on July 09, 2020, 08:10:22 PM
More will get the vaccine because employers will likely make it mandatory.

Maybe. I think it's more likely that many employers will simply say that a vaccine is available, so remote work and staggered schedules and other accommodations aren't necessary. Most employers won't want to deal with grievances and medical exemption paperwork that requiring vaccine would prompt. Large employers may arrange vaccine shots onsite, which will help.
Enthusiasm is not a skill set. (MH)

downer

Quote from: Ruralguy on July 09, 2020, 08:10:22 PM
More will get the vaccine because employers will likely make it mandatory.

Given the resistance to wearing masks, can you imagine the resistance to mandatory vaccines in the US? It is easier to imagine it being well accepted in more socially conforming societies.

As for the law, there would obviously be lawsuits. The results might be hard to predict. Here's a discussion of requiring flu vaccines.
QuoteAs for current employees, the ADA generally prohibits employers from mandating that employees receive any medical testing or vaccinations unless they are job-related, consistent with business necessity, and no more intrusive than necessary.  This is a very difficult standard to meet unless the employer is part of the healthcare field or otherwise requires employees to regularly interact with immune-compromised clients, patients, or customers.
(Source)
A lot of employers have found that it is possible to continue business with employees working from home.

It might be easier for universities to require that students get vaccinations since they already do that for MMR.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."—Sinclair Lewis

Caracal

Quote from: downer on July 10, 2020, 03:58:01 AM

As for the law, there would obviously be lawsuits. The results might be hard to predict. Here's a discussion of requiring flu vaccines.
QuoteAs for current employees, the ADA generally prohibits employers from mandating that employees receive any medical testing or vaccinations unless they are job-related, consistent with business necessity, and no more intrusive than necessary.  This is a very difficult standard to meet unless the employer is part of the healthcare field or otherwise requires employees to regularly interact with immune-compromised clients, patients, or customers.
(Source)


Hmm, try reading that again. That was a difficult standard to meet with the flu vaccine. It will not at all be a difficult standard to meet for COVID. Sure, some companies may decide to continue to allow remote work, but that doesn't mean that they aren't allowed to decide that it would be more efficient to require some or all employees to come in to work at least some of the time. I don't think someone is going to get very far as an employee by arguing that because they worked from home during an emergency situation that their employer has no right to expect them to ever come in the office or that employees being in an office in person is somehow totally unnecessary.

downer

Quote from: Caracal on July 10, 2020, 04:16:33 AM
Quote from: downer on July 10, 2020, 03:58:01 AM

As for the law, there would obviously be lawsuits. The results might be hard to predict. Here's a discussion of requiring flu vaccines.
QuoteAs for current employees, the ADA generally prohibits employers from mandating that employees receive any medical testing or vaccinations unless they are job-related, consistent with business necessity, and no more intrusive than necessary.  This is a very difficult standard to meet unless the employer is part of the healthcare field or otherwise requires employees to regularly interact with immune-compromised clients, patients, or customers.
(Source)


Hmm, try reading that again. That was a difficult standard to meet with the flu vaccine. It will not at all be a difficult standard to meet for COVID. Sure, some companies may decide to continue to allow remote work, but that doesn't mean that they aren't allowed to decide that it would be more efficient to require some or all employees to come in to work at least some of the time. I don't think someone is going to get very far as an employee by arguing that because they worked from home during an emergency situation that their employer has no right to expect them to ever come in the office or that employees being in an office in person is somehow totally unnecessary.

I'm no lawyer, and these things can depend on which judge you get. For many jobs, employers can fire employees for just about any reason. It will also vary from state to state. For example, apparently Oregon has a law preventing healthcare employers from making vaccinations mandatory.

I expect there will be pressure on politicians to enact laws preventing mandatory vaccinations, especially in those states where large numbers of people think that the virus is a liberal conspiracy against freedom.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."—Sinclair Lewis

Caracal

Quote from: downer on July 10, 2020, 03:58:01 AM

Given the resistance to wearing masks, can you imagine the resistance to mandatory vaccines in the US? It is easier to imagine it being well accepted in more socially conforming societies.

I expect there will be pressure on politicians to enact laws preventing mandatory vaccinations, especially in those states where large numbers of people think that the virus is a liberal conspiracy against freedom.


Of course, your reasons for being skeptical of a vaccine are valid, for everyone else it is about their irrational beliefs?