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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: smallcleanrat on May 25, 2020, 07:14:50 PM

Title: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on May 25, 2020, 07:14:50 PM
Thought a thread like this might be of use...
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on May 25, 2020, 08:32:36 PM
Good idea.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: dr_codex on May 25, 2020, 09:21:58 PM
Subscribing.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: OneMoreYear on May 26, 2020, 09:02:49 AM
Thanks for starting, smallcleanrat. How have you been doing?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on May 26, 2020, 05:08:31 PM
Been struggling to put the last ten days into some kind of coherent narrative. I feel utterly wrung out, hopeless, yet strangely calm and empty.

10 days ago: acute increase in intensity of suicidal urges; these will continue throughout the next week and a half, along with persistent insomnia allowing me only 1-2 hours sleep per night

9 days ago: contact a text crisis line around 2am when urge to stab self with kitchen knife will not subside

8 days ago: inform SO of struggles and increased suicide risk; he acknowledges the info without much commentary

6 days ago: inform SO of psychiatrist's recommendations RE: increased suicidal thoughts; SO says "I didn't realize that was going on."; I learn that SO has completely forgotten about what I told him 2 days earlier; he defends himself with "well, you know I have a bad memory and I have a lot going on with work; I can't remember everything you say to me"; I feel more alone than ever, realizing I may have to deal with this without his support

5 days ago: in the evening, I ask SO to sit with me a while because I don't think I can be alone; he says he's sleepy and heads off to his bedroom; RE: my hurt expression, "What's the matter with you?"; I remind him of what I told him the day before and 2 days before that; his response "oh, that; well, I don't know what to do about it; I can't sit with you all night"

3 days ago: SO and I have a long discussion; I tell him I was very hurt that he would forget something like me telling him I wanted to kill myself; he says he doesn't understand why I am hurt, since he doesn't forget on purpose; "I didn't do it out of malice or not caring, I just forgot. Why are you so upset about it?"

SO then details how he no longer gets anything out of our relationship. I've been sick and struggling for years, and I think he's burnt out on being supportive and optimistic. He wants marriage and kids and all that's put on hold while I try to sort out my health. Because I don't feel well most of the time, we don't have as much quality together time. It's difficult for me to stay in the moment and engage with another person due to pain, exhaustion, or my mental issues.

If things don't get better soon, he says he will probably want to leave. I can understand this. Even suggested it several times over the years (but he insisted he loved me and would stick with me whatever happens). I'm actually surprised he stuck with me as long as he has. The only thing I can really fault him on is timing. Throwing this at me when I'm in this mental state seems unkind. He could have told me a couple of weeks ago, when these urges were not as acute. Or a couple of weeks from now, when possibly they will be relatively under control again. But we don't always think of these things when emotions run high.

I am now working with my therapist to rewrite my safety plan. I can no longer include him as part of my support network, even if he hasn't broken up with me yet. If work stuff and the overall stress of the pandemic mean he doesn't have the bandwidth to help me, I can accept that. I wish he could have told me earlier, but it is what it is.

People in the mental health world are quick to tell you that feeling you are a burden on others or that they would be better off without you are distorted thoughts stemming from the depression. But it can also be the truth. It is wearying to be there for someone who is sick for a long period of time.

Maybe that's why I feel so calm. I felt for a long time I wasn't doing anybody any good. And if one of the people closest to me as much as says so, it resolves the dissonance.

Right now I'm focusing on grading and helping students with their final term papers. If I can't fulfill my duties as TA, I feel like I've got nothing left. It's the only domain in my life in which I am currently doing anything useful (minimally; I'm behind on this work as well).

Once term ends...I don't know. I'm not quite sure what I'll do with myself from there.

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: dr_codex on May 26, 2020, 07:53:24 PM
Oof. That was raw, smallcleanrat.

Please do not collapse all feelings into one other person, or into one job, or into one anything. Keep talking with your therapist, please.

And listen to the calm for a while. Maybe it's telling you something that you need to hear.

Hang on.

dc
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Hegemony on May 27, 2020, 12:53:15 AM
Just because one person is burnt out or grumpy or stressed generally or not a responsive kind of person does not mean that across the board you are a burden on others. I know he's the only one in your house right now, but don't take him for the position of the world. He could just be tired and stressed; he could equally just be a jerk. He could be a tired and stressed jerk. To be honest, he sounds like one. Anyway, don't take the opportunity to interpret his jerky responses as some kind of confirmation of the distorted thoughts your brain is advertising. Do keep reaching out to folks who are more available. I know this situation sucks, but it will not always suck. Meanwhile take the chance to do whatever keeps your spirits a bit happy — trashy TV, chocolate ice cream, looking at kittens on Instagram, buying novels with no redeeming literary value — or all of the above.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on May 27, 2020, 04:27:16 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on May 27, 2020, 12:53:15 AM
Just because one person is burnt out or grumpy or stressed generally or not a responsive kind of person does not mean that across the board you are a burden on others. I know he's the only one in your house right now, but don't take him for the position of the world. He could just be tired and stressed; he could equally just be a jerk. He could be a tired and stressed jerk. To be honest, he sounds like one. Anyway, don't take the opportunity to interpret his jerky responses as some kind of confirmation of the distorted thoughts your brain is advertising. Do keep reaching out to folks who are more available. I know this situation sucks, but it will not always suck. Meanwhile take the chance to do whatever keeps your spirits a bit happy — trashy TV, chocolate ice cream, looking at kittens on Instagram, buying novels with no redeeming literary value — or all of the above.

This! Actually, all of it.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on May 27, 2020, 07:35:57 AM
Hi Smallcleanrat, I am very glad that you reached out to the crisis line, that you are working on a safety plan, and that you are communicating here. Those are really strong, brave actions. Your SO has his own issues; you can't take them on now. Instead, just keep trying to move forward and keep talking to your therapist.
Thinking of you,
Morden
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: notmycircus on May 27, 2020, 08:25:08 AM
Thinking of you this morning.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on May 27, 2020, 12:09:15 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on May 26, 2020, 07:53:24 PM
Oof. That was raw, smallcleanrat.

Please do not collapse all feelings into one other person, or into one job, or into one anything. Keep talking with your therapist, please.

And listen to the calm for a while. Maybe it's telling you something that you need to hear.

Hang on.

dc

Hi, dr_codex. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Would you please explain?

I'm not sure what the calm means. Right now, I think it's a sense that there is less pressure to fight the suicidal urges. People kept telling me to think of how devastated SO would be if he lost me. But if he's not getting anything out of his relationship with me, it wouldn't really be much of a loss.

He keeps telling me just because he doesn't remember, it doesn't mean he doesn't care. This does not make sense to me. This is not on the level of forgetting I asked him to pick up milk from the store or forgetting to get me a birthday card. Maybe it's because I've been struggling with these urges for so many years, he's tuned it out. I only tell him when there seems a real danger of me taking action; I don't bother to mention the more passive ideation or impulses that are moderate enough for me to manage on my own. But even so, he may just have heard it too many times to take seriously at this point.

I think what some people don't understand is, even when I know I will be able to restrain myself from acting on the urges, I still may need help. The constant conflict of wanting to act but knowing I "shouldn't" can be agony, and it hurts so much more to be going through it alone.

Quote from: Hegemony on May 27, 2020, 12:53:15 AM
Just because one person is burnt out or grumpy or stressed generally or not a responsive kind of person does not mean that across the board you are a burden on others. I know he's the only one in your house right now, but don't take him for the position of the world. He could just be tired and stressed; he could equally just be a jerk. He could be a tired and stressed jerk. To be honest, he sounds like one. Anyway, don't take the opportunity to interpret his jerky responses as some kind of confirmation of the distorted thoughts your brain is advertising. Do keep reaching out to folks who are more available. I know this situation sucks, but it will not always suck. Meanwhile take the chance to do whatever keeps your spirits a bit happy — trashy TV, chocolate ice cream, looking at kittens on Instagram, buying novels with no redeeming literary value — or all of the above.

I can agree with this, but it hasn't just been one person. My parents have told me how my issues have burdened them with extra stress and expense. My mom tells me she sometimes feels all the effort and emotion and time they invested in raising me felt like a waste, given how long it's taking me to establish a career, a relationship, and a life of my own. My previous grad program told me my slowed progress due to illness made it difficult to justify the resources being spent to train me, and that one poorly performing lab member can negatively affect everyone else in the group. My previous PI told me not to return to lab after my medical leave, even if I was declared recovered and fit to work again, because chronic conditions can flare and a lab needs dependable people.

At this point, I don't know how to justify taking more time from doctors, therapists, or anyone else, given how long I've been trying to get better. I feel I've used more than my fair share of resources at this point. And even if I do get better, I have no reason to expect I will ever get well.

SO has been talking to a therapist for the last month for help managing stress. This therapist told him in their very first session that SO needed to be less emotionally invested in helping me get better, because people with chronic issues like mine never do (based on therapist's professional experience). SO mentioned wanting to marry me and raise a family; therapist said it was a terrible idea. Mental illness is hereditary, and chronically depressed people do not make good parents (as they are to preoccupied with their own issues to be sufficiently attentive and loving). SO did say he thought these were very odd things to say so confidently when all the therapist had to go on was SO's description of me and our relationship in a single therapy session. These things might not be true generally, but for me specifically, I've long wondered.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on May 27, 2020, 12:56:02 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 27, 2020, 12:09:15 PM

Quote from: Hegemony on May 27, 2020, 12:53:15 AM
Just because one person is burnt out or grumpy or stressed generally or not a responsive kind of person does not mean that across the board you are a burden on others. I know he's the only one in your house right now, but don't take him for the position of the world. He could just be tired and stressed; he could equally just be a jerk. He could be a tired and stressed jerk. To be honest, he sounds like one. Anyway, don't take the opportunity to interpret his jerky responses as some kind of confirmation of the distorted thoughts your brain is advertising. Do keep reaching out to folks who are more available. I know this situation sucks, but it will not always suck. Meanwhile take the chance to do whatever keeps your spirits a bit happy — trashy TV, chocolate ice cream, looking at kittens on Instagram, buying novels with no redeeming literary value — or all of the above.

I can agree with this, but it hasn't just been one person. My parents have told me how my issues have burdened them with extra stress and expense. My mom tells me she sometimes feels all the effort and emotion and time they invested in raising me felt like a waste, given how long it's taking me to establish a career, a relationship, and a life of my own. My previous grad program told me my slowed progress due to illness made it difficult to justify the resources being spent to train me, and that one poorly performing lab member can negatively affect everyone else in the group. My previous PI told me not to return to lab after my medical leave, even if I was declared recovered and fit to work again, because chronic conditions can flare and a lab needs dependable people.

At this point, I don't know how to justify taking more time from doctors, therapists, or anyone else, given how long I've been trying to get better. I feel I've used more than my fair share of resources at this point. And even if I do get better, I have no reason to expect I will ever get well.

You are not the first person who has come, with some reason, to feel like a burden or drain on other people.  I have gone through periods in my own life of doing that.  A church pastor once told me "It's been a year (of pastoral counseling) now, and I haven't been able to help you."  He never used a word like "burden," but I could tell that my coming to him with intractable problems was wearing him down and frustrating him.  The same held true for my parents, friends, and staff at work.  Not to mention me--I was so very worn out with carrying all of this, and really didn't know how I could keep going.

But you know what?  Each of the people above continued helping me, bearing with me, and bearing the burden of helping me.  They didn't give up on me, because they loved me.  As appallingly prolonged as that period (and other similar periods in my life) was, it did end.  And I got my life back. 

You can also.  You are a human being created in God's image, and of great value to God, to Jesus, and to your fellow human beings.  Preserving that value is well worth the effort of helping to carry somebody over a rough patch.  Please don't ever forget that about yourself.  Or about others, when the time comes that you're on the other side of the helping equation.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on May 27, 2020, 09:37:01 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 27, 2020, 12:09:15 PMAt this point, I don't know how to justify taking more time from doctors, therapists, or anyone else, given how long I've been trying to get better. I feel I've used more than my fair share of resources at this point. And even if I do get better, I have no reason to expect I will ever get well.

Life isn't fair, so don't worry about exceeding some "fair share" in any one area.

The only justification needed is medical help is necessary at this point for you.

You matter for more than your job or research.  Keep reaching out for the help you need.  Knowing people for a long time is not the same as having people who are the right combo of help at the current phase in one's life.  One of the benefits of moving somewhere new can be finding new people who are better suited to the current situation.

We're here for you.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: sprout on May 27, 2020, 10:35:37 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 27, 2020, 09:37:01 PM
You matter for more than your job or research. 

This is so important to hear.  For me, when I'm fighting depression, one of the things that helps is to remind myself that there's still a 'me' there, beyond everything that's going on and stressing me out.  Meditation helps me get back in touch with that center, personally, but whatever works for you will be worthwhile.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on May 28, 2020, 08:22:29 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 27, 2020, 12:09:15 PM
.At this point, I don't know how to justify taking more time from doctors, therapists, or anyone else, given how long I've been trying to get better. I feel I've used more than my fair share of resources at this point. And even if I do get better, I have no reason to expect I will ever get well.

Why don't you use Donald Trumps' share? He doesn't have the sense to use it. Besides, people who do therapy enjoy doing it. It gives meaning to their lives.
Only thing I would caution against (and this is about me, not you) is being lulled into the impression that you are doing something about your problems by 'working on your mental health.' While this can be true for some, often the patient just needs to take charge of their life and make tough decisions. For example, I once went to a divorce attorney. I was so distraught at the time I let it slip out that I was going to a therapist. She was ready for it. She said 'well, go to the therapist if it keeps you sane, but we're better. We help you get things resolved.'

*************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Now that the stage is set for sharing personal information, I'll just reiterate my curiosity about ketamine or other 'last ditch' depression treatments. I always thought 'last resort, desperation' characterizations sound funny to people who have done the hard work of facing chronic depression for years. You wanna see a 'last resort?' Try reading Dr. Aaron Beck's Feeling Good where he fields phone messages from his patients. No medication involved. Just finding the right words.
Sometimes the generosity and heroism of these people can leave one at a loss for words. I had a therapist who, on the one hand, was a terrible therapist. She almost never spoke. OTOH, she saved my life by insisting I check in with her by phone once a week. (At the same time, I was a pretty poor patient.) Sometimes I wonder how these people deal with your going away, they appeared to have cared so much.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on May 29, 2020, 11:47:05 AM
Will post again with questions/comments on everyone's input here when I can think a bit more clearly.

mahagonny, wish I had personal experience with ketamine to share, but unfortunately have never tried it. I have been undergoing TMS, which is another treatment that tends to be used only when many other treatment attempts have failed. PM me if you're interested in that at all.

Was at a treatment this morning. Went out to the stairwell, 5 stories up, staring down at ground; complete lack of discomfort or giddiness I normally feel when looking down from a height. I told myself I would finish out the spring term before I thought anymore about suicide, but I guess I just had a heavy sad mood this morning that was hard to shake off. Called the suicide hotline, but was not able to make myself understood very well, especially regarding where I was. Should probably stick to text lines from now on. When the hotline ended the conversation and said goodbye to me I was still on that stairwell, leaning over the railing, and feeling stuck between going home or going over.

After a couple of hours, feelings had drained and I just felt blank. Headed home.

SO should have expected me back hours ago. Did not attempt to message me or inquire why I was away so long when I got back. Am not sharing the experience with him as I suspect it will do no good for either of us.

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on May 29, 2020, 12:25:40 PM
Hi Smallcleanrat, I'm glad you're going to treatment and that you called when you felt you needed to.
thinking of you,
Morden

:edit: Signature
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on May 29, 2020, 12:38:29 PM
Hi, smallcleanrat,

I'm glad you went home and then wrote to us.

Keep on reaching out for the help you need.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on May 29, 2020, 12:54:36 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 29, 2020, 11:47:05 AM
Will post again with questions/comments on everyone's input here when I can think a bit more clearly.

mahagonny, wish I had personal experience with ketamine to share, but unfortunately have never tried it. I have been undergoing TMS, which is another treatment that tends to be used only when many other treatment attempts have failed. PM me if you're interested in that at all.

Was at a treatment this morning. Went out to the stairwell, 5 stories up, staring down at ground; complete lack of discomfort or giddiness I normally feel when looking down from a height. I told myself I would finish out the spring term before I thought anymore about suicide, but I guess I just had a heavy sad mood this morning that was hard to shake off. Called the suicide hotline, but was not able to make myself understood very well, especially regarding where I was. Should probably stick to text lines from now on. When the hotline ended the conversation and said goodbye to me I was still on that stairwell, leaning over the railing, and feeling stuck between going home or going over.

After a couple of hours, feelings had drained and I just felt blank. Headed home.

SO should have expected me back hours ago. Did not attempt to message me or inquire why I was away so long when I got back. Am not sharing the experience with him as I suspect it will do no good for either of us.

You're welcome to PM to me at anytime, I like mutual support situations. I may need your help as we go along.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on May 29, 2020, 01:07:49 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 29, 2020, 12:38:29 PM
Hi, smallcleanrat,

I'm glad you went home and then wrote to us.

Keep on reaching out for the help you need.

Yes, just keep talking.  We're here.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Cheerful on May 29, 2020, 01:20:14 PM
Good that you called the hotline, smallcleanrat, and are in treatment.  You are being your own best friend and making it through another day.  Be good to yourself this weekend and every day.

Best wishes to you, mahagonny.  Try to make it the best weekend possible.  Be your own best friend.

Glad you're better after enduring hard times, apl68.  May your example give hope to others.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: permanent imposter on May 29, 2020, 06:42:20 PM
I'm rooting for you smallcleanrat! I think this is only my third or fourth post here. I don't know you but I care about you as a person, and as others have said you are more than your job/so/mental health problems. You have intrinsic worth as a human being. Looking forward to updates from you and hope you get better.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on May 31, 2020, 03:53:34 PM
So, my latest discovery. You might call in serendipity, although taking into account my taste for  'last resort' treatments (I say this to poke fun at myself, not to complain about responses on the fora) it might be considered some type of mischief.
Since my asthma got much worse two weeks ago I was prescribed maximum strength inhaled medicine. Fluticasone and salmeterol 500/50.
I find it has had a quick positive effect (3-4 days as opposed to 2-6 weeks for antidepressants) against depression.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on May 31, 2020, 05:34:54 PM
That's interesting. Have you told your doctor about this effect?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on May 31, 2020, 05:50:56 PM
Quote from: Morden on May 31, 2020, 05:34:54 PM
That's interesting. Have you told your doctor about this effect?

Not as yet. But I do not have a psychiatrist at this time. My zoloft prescribing was taken over a couple years ago by my GP.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on June 01, 2020, 07:14:20 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on May 31, 2020, 05:50:56 PM
Quote from: Morden on May 31, 2020, 05:34:54 PM
That's interesting. Have you told your doctor about this effect?

Not as yet. But I do not have a psychiatrist at this time. My zoloft prescribing was taken over a couple years ago by my GP.

I know what they will say when I tell them. Either (a) That's fine but the main concern is your breathing. All medicines can have side effects, or (b) are you sure? Could it be something else that makes you feel more upbeat lately? The nice Spring weather? or (c) if you needed that boost to your depression treatment you should probably meet with a psychiatrist for a few visits and discuss treatment options.

I know I can put the ball in their court. Thanks for your interest/ support, Morden.

I am not really surprised by this effect. Steroids, you know. And the maximum dose of this asthma medication. Steroids can be euphoric or dysphoric or neither, depending on the person.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on June 01, 2020, 07:37:58 AM
Hi mahagonny, I'm glad you're getting some relief and hope the effect continues. I saw your earlier posts about ketamine. I don't know anyone who has taken it as a supervised therapy for depression. I do know someone who used it a lot and eventually things spiralled out of control for him, but that can be an issue with many substances.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on June 01, 2020, 07:47:42 AM
Quote from: Morden on June 01, 2020, 07:37:58 AM
Hi mahagonny, I'm glad you're getting some relief and hope the effect continues. I saw your earlier posts about ketamine. I don't know anyone who has taken it as a supervised therapy for depression. I do know someone who used it a lot and eventually things spiralled out of control for him, but that can be an issue with many substances.

Probably will, but long term steroid use is only a last resort. Of course, when someone could be unable to breath, last resorts are welcome, within reason.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on June 09, 2020, 09:40:24 AM
Trying to find words. Not having an easy time.

About a week ago another TA learned about my depression and suicidality. Became intensely emphatic that she wanted to help anyway she could and would never want to hear anything had happened to me. Shared her own previous struggles with depression in grad school, emphasizing the people who helped her get through it.

I generally don't follow up on such offers of help, because people often say such things automatically or with good intention but no idea how to follow through. I try to avoid putting someone in that awkward situation. But she was so insistent and spoke so passionately, when I was struggling to hold together last week, I texted her asking if sometime over the next few days she'd be free for a phone chat. Told her the isolation over weekends, when there are no scheduled school or lab-related meetings was hard to withstand when having a bad spell. She said absolutely and texted she would call me the next afternoon.

Didn't hear from her the next day or the day after that or the day after that. Didn't want to prod her because she had offered a favor, it wasn't an obligation. Felt sad and empty and a little scared something bad had happened to her.

Then got an email saying sorry she couldn't call but she was totally preoccupied with quals prep. Understandable. Just feeling...I don't know...insignificant. Would have felt ok if she had taken 10 seconds to send a message saying "Slammed with work; can we postpone our phone chat to another day?" Or something like that. Something to let me know she remembered I exist.

Same day I got that email my psychiatrist missed our appointment. He has a habit of not writing things down right away, and sometimes doesn't realize we had agreed to meet. Spent half an hour staring at a blank Zoom meeting window.

Spent a few hours last night deep breathing against a suffocating feeling in my chest.

Utterly ashamed at how poorly I am coping with minor disappointments. I don't think I've ever had the strength to manage on my own without comfort or validation from other people. I still don't feel like a proper adult, and I no longer feel like a real person. There is less distress thinking about dying than there is thinking about living.

Trying to focus on work as much as possible. End of term is in a couple of weeks. I told myself I would hold off thinking about anything else until then. It seemed a manageable goal. Don't know quite where to go from there. I can't endure feeling this way forever.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on June 09, 2020, 10:23:37 AM
QuoteThen got an email saying sorry she couldn't call but she was totally preoccupied with quals prep. Understandable. Just feeling...I don't know...insignificant. Would have felt ok if she had taken 10 seconds to send a message saying "Slammed with work; can we postpone our phone chat to another day?" Or something like that. Something to let me know she remembered I exist.

Same day I got that email my psychiatrist missed our appointment. He has a habit of not writing things down right away, and sometimes doesn't realize we had agreed to meet. Spent half an hour staring at a blank Zoom meeting window.

1.  It is certainly understandable (as you stated) that someone in the throws of preparing for qualifying exams may be ignoring their emails rather than ignoring you.  Perhaps, had you send a text, it may have had a different outcome.  My experience with students (even graduate students) is that they can and will ignore email, but can not be more than a few feet from their phone!

2.a. Many of my doctors offices phone the day before to confirm our appointments.  Perhaps you can act more proactively to do the same.  You can call the office a day or even 2 before to confirm that you have an appointment scheduled.  Especially if someone has a history that hu "doesnt realize we had agreed to meet".  (I learned this from Gomer Pyle, but I m sure it comes from somewhere else originally, "Fool me once shame on you.  Fool me twice shame on me!")
2b.  Why didnt you call the office to see if there was a problem rather than wait half an hour?  IF there is no connection after 10 minutes, why didnt you pick up the phone to ask the office if they were having a problem?

You are in more control of your life than you realize and personalizing too much, perhaps.  I have read many of your posts and I understand your general situation.  I appreciate that you are not coping well, but I think that by taking a few actions on your own behalf will save you from the spiral of gloom that follows a disappointment.  If you avoid putting yourself in the position to be disappointed, you will feel better.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: the_geneticist on June 09, 2020, 10:25:34 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 09, 2020, 09:40:24 AM
Trying to find words. Not having an easy time.

About a week ago another TA learned about my depression and suicidality. Became intensely emphatic that she wanted to help anyway she could and would never want to hear anything had happened to me. Shared her own previous struggles with depression in grad school, emphasizing the people who helped her get through it.

I generally don't follow up on such offers of help, because people often say such things automatically or with good intention but no idea how to follow through. I try to avoid putting someone in that awkward situation. But she was so insistent and spoke so passionately, when I was struggling to hold together last week, I texted her asking if sometime over the next few days she'd be free for a phone chat. Told her the isolation over weekends, when there are no scheduled school or lab-related meetings was hard to withstand when having a bad spell. She said absolutely and texted she would call me the next afternoon.

Didn't hear from her the next day or the day after that or the day after that. Didn't want to prod her because she had offered a favor, it wasn't an obligation. Felt sad and empty and a little scared something bad had happened to her.

Then got an email saying sorry she couldn't call but she was totally preoccupied with quals prep. Understandable. Just feeling...I don't know...insignificant. Would have felt ok if she had taken 10 seconds to send a message saying "Slammed with work; can we postpone our phone chat to another day?" Or something like that. Something to let me know she remembered I exist.

Same day I got that email my psychiatrist missed our appointment. He has a habit of not writing things down right away, and sometimes doesn't realize we had agreed to meet. Spent half an hour staring at a blank Zoom meeting window.

Spent a few hours last night deep breathing against a suffocating feeling in my chest.

Utterly ashamed at how poorly I am coping with minor disappointments. I don't think I've ever had the strength to manage on my own without comfort or validation from other people. I still don't feel like a proper adult, and I no longer feel like a real person. There is less distress thinking about dying than there is thinking about living.

Trying to focus on work as much as possible. End of term is in a couple of weeks. I told myself I would hold off thinking about anything else until then. It seemed a manageable goal. Don't know quite where to go from there. I can't endure feeling this way forever.

Smallcleanrat, please contact your psychiatrist to get another appointment. 
Also, there are 24/7 help resources.  https://www.imalive.org, https://afsp.org
Call 800-273-8255
Or text TALK to 741741
These are staffed by folks who are trained to offer assistance.  It's not a bother or a burden to contact them.  Really.  Try calling or texting today so you can save the contact in your phone.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on June 09, 2020, 10:37:18 AM
Thanks for your reply, clean.

1) I had texted the day before. She said she would call me the next day. I didn't want to bug her because I guessed she was swamped with work. I just wish she had taken a moment to send a message cancelling that plan.

2) I did confirm the appointment that same morning. He repeated the time back to me and said, "See you then!" Calling the office always goes to voice mail and takes at least a day before getting a response. I emailed the doctor, which I'm the past has been the more likely way to get a response. We rescheduled to later this week. I'm just tired of being forgotten.

I've tried the crisis lines. They can help through the moment. But it's nothing like talking to someone who actually knows you.

I swear I've been trying, it just gets harder and harder to remember what for.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on June 09, 2020, 11:05:59 AM
Quote from: clean on June 09, 2020, 10:23:37 AM
2.a. Many of my doctors offices phone the day before to confirm our appointments.  Perhaps you can act more proactively to do the same.  You can call the office a day or even 2 before to confirm that you have an appointment scheduled.  Especially if someone has a history that hu "doesnt realize we had agreed to meet".  (I learned this from Gomer Pyle, but I m sure it comes from somewhere else originally, "Fool me once shame on you.  Fool me twice shame on me!")

You are in more control of your life than you realize and personalizing too much, perhaps.  I have read many of your posts and I understand your general situation.  I appreciate that you are not coping well, but I think that by taking a few actions on your own behalf will save you from the spiral of gloom that follows a disappointment.  If you avoid putting yourself in the position to be disappointed, you will feel better.

I agree with the principle of being proactive. But in addition to that morning confirmation, he sent me the Zoom invite himself a few hours before the appointment. And that morning was the *second* confirmation I'd gotten from him since our last appointment. And I messaged him to find out what was up through what has historically been the most reliable means of getting a response.

I do whatever I can think of.

Recently my therapist (the one I combed through dozens of names within my network to connect with) said "I don't think I can do anything to help you." Followed by a long awkward pause as I waited for him to say more, thinking that couldn't be the entire message. Had to prod him asking whether he had ideas for where I should go next (once I got an explanation he was talking about his areas of expertise). Got numbers from him, asked for numbers from the TMS clinic, spoke to the grad student health center and got more contacts...have been emailing and calling and asking about schedules and insurance, etc...

I've compiled reading lists related to my chronic conditions and mental health issues, trying to synthesize the various streams of advice. Drew up a daily self care schedule that I've taped to my wall, making an effort to stick to healthy habits. Keep a journal to track which treatments seem  to help and which don't.

Being proactive is probably why I didn't fall completely to pieces years ago.

I'm sure there are other things I haven't thought of yet that might help, but...it's hard for me to swallow lack of trying as the reason I still hurt all the time. I could be completely wrong and may have been lying to myself, but I would need help to see it.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on June 09, 2020, 11:13:18 AM
It seems, then, that you are taking the right steps to start with.  The only other suggestion I have may not be helpful.  If you can not trust your professionals to be there when they say they will be and they dont provide a satisfactory explanation for missing the appointment (again!), then perhaps it is time to fire this one and find another! 


Otherwise, it does seem like you are taking the right steps!

Good luck! and Hang in there! 
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Puget on June 09, 2020, 12:01:01 PM
Hang in there SCR! You are not responsible for other people's flakiness and their flakiness is about them, not you.

The psychiatrist is being very unprofessional to miss appointments-- is this the same psychiatrist who was not listening to you and your concerns before? If so (and maybe even if not), yes, fire him! (After finding someone new). He may have been helpful in some ways, but he really doesn't sound like he's doing a very good job. You deserve someone who is professional, competent and respectful of your time and your voice.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Cheerful on June 09, 2020, 12:09:02 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 09, 2020, 09:40:24 AM
...another TA learned about my depression and suicidality. Became intensely emphatic that she wanted to help anyway she could and would never want to hear anything had happened to me. Shared her own previous struggles with depression in grad school, emphasizing the people who helped her get through it.

I generally don't follow up on such offers of help, because people often say such things automatically or with good intention but no idea how to follow through. I try to avoid putting someone in that awkward situation. But she was so insistent and spoke so passionately, when I was struggling to hold together last week, I texted her asking if sometime over the next few days she'd be free for a phone chat. Told her the isolation over weekends, when there are no scheduled school or lab-related meetings was hard to withstand when having a bad spell. She said absolutely and texted she would call me the next afternoon.

Didn't hear from her the next day or the day after that or the day after that. Didn't want to prod her because she had offered a favor, it wasn't an obligation. Felt sad and empty and a little scared something bad had happened to her.

Then got an email saying sorry she couldn't call but she was totally preoccupied with quals prep. Understandable....

That's really unfortunate. I wouldn't call it "understandable" or excusable.  Your disappointment and hurt are reasonable.  How kind that you were concerned that she was OK.  Maybe she had good intentions initially.  When it came to following through on her pledge, she showed that she is flaky, insensitive, and may be coping with personal problems.  You've now learned that this person is not reliable.

Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 09, 2020, 09:40:24 AM
Same day I got that email my psychiatrist missed our appointment. He has a habit of not writing things down right away, and sometimes doesn't realize we had agreed to meet. Spent half an hour staring at a blank Zoom meeting window.

Unprofessional and unfortunate that he's apparently not able to manage his appointments better.  You aren't the first person to encounter a medical professional who is less than stellar in dealing with patients.  Decide whether his appointment issues are worth putting up with given the quality of treatment you're receiving and availability of other doctors.

Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 09, 2020, 09:40:24 AM
Utterly ashamed at how poorly I am coping with minor disappointments.

These weren't minor disappointments.  Sounds like you're coping well.

Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 09, 2020, 11:05:59 AM
Recently my therapist (the one I combed through dozens of names within my network to connect with) said "I don't think I can do anything to help you."...[snip] Got numbers from him, asked for numbers from the TMS clinic, spoke to the grad student health center and got more contacts...have been emailing and calling and asking about schedules and insurance, etc.

As you know, it can take several therapists to find the right fit.  This one isn't the right fit.  Keep persevering and taking these smart steps to find the therapist you deserve.  It's draining, but you're fighting on.

Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 09, 2020, 11:05:59 AM
I've compiled reading lists related to my chronic conditions and mental health issues, trying to synthesize the various streams of advice. Drew up a daily self care schedule that I've taped to my wall, making an effort to stick to healthy habits. Keep a journal to track which treatments seem  to help and which don't.

Excellent!  All of these are huge accomplishments, give yourself huge credit.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on June 09, 2020, 03:30:39 PM
smallcleanrat,

1) I would definitely fire that psychiatrist and get one who acts like a professional.  It is not OK to 'forget' appointments, especially ones confirmed within hours.

2) I would cross the TA off my support list. It's one thing to push a scheduled appointment on short notice because things are running late or something urgent came up; it's quite another to agree to be available and then just not.

You (smallcleanrat) matter and it's entirely reasonable to be unhappy with support folks who just fail.  That failure is on them, not you.

Keep reaching out!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: sprout on June 10, 2020, 09:30:49 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 09, 2020, 03:30:39 PM
smallcleanrat,

1) I would definitely fire that psychiatrist and get one who acts like a professional.  It is not OK to 'forget' appointments, especially ones confirmed within hours.



Wholeheartedly agree with this, and I find it particularly egregious in a mental health professional. They should know that this kind of thing can send someone already struggling with depression and anxiety into a tailspin.  If you have the spoons for it, you could make it clear exactly why you're not continuing with them.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: dr_codex on June 10, 2020, 01:05:30 PM
Quote from: sprout on June 10, 2020, 09:30:49 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 09, 2020, 03:30:39 PM
smallcleanrat,

1) I would definitely fire that psychiatrist and get one who acts like a professional.  It is not OK to 'forget' appointments, especially ones confirmed within hours.



Wholeheartedly agree with this, and I find it particularly egregious in a mental health professional. They should know that this kind of thing can send someone already struggling with depression and anxiety into a tailspin.  If you have the spoons for it, you could make it clear exactly why you're not continuing with them.

Yup. I dumped a therapist for ghosting me at a time of extreme need. She had some nerve giving me grief about it.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on June 11, 2020, 06:25:30 PM
Thanks for commenting, everybody.

The other TA had said in her email that she would "definitely" check in with me once her quals were finished. They were scheduled several days ago. I texted her recently saying "Hi. How did your quals go?" No response. I didn't get my hopes up for a response this time, so I'm not feeling too hurt by this. I do find it puzzling.

She seemed so concerned earlier; there was such urgency in her voice when she told me to let her know if there was anything she could do to help. And I had explicitly told her, I had treatment providers I could contact for crises/emergencies. What she could do to help was just have a friendly chat with me once in a while; some human interaction to cut through the isolation. She seemed relieved I had told her a way to help and eager to follow up.

Why ignore me then?

This is why can be so hard to interpret people when they say, "I care about you and I don't want anything to happen to you." Because it often seems I can disappear without many of the people who said such things even noticing, let alone feeling anything about it.

I'll probably look around for a new psychiatrist, but I'm reluctant to leave my current one as he has been one of the best doctors I've ever had for meds management. I'd rather have someone who forgets appointments at times but thinks carefully about my medical history and strategically about medication changes than someone who is always punctual but prescribes haphazardly.

I did make some headway with one of the therapy programs I contacted. Even with insurance, it will be quite expensive (about  1-1.5 months' worth of stipend), but reading about the groups and skills coaching they offer makes me think, just maybe, there's a chance this place might actually be able to help me. There's a strong emphasis on helping people learn to integrate the principles they learn in therapy into their real lives (where situations are more complex and nuanced than examples in a workbook). This is what I have been saying for years is what I need the most. I still need to clear an intake assessment to determine if I'm a good fit for the program.

It sounds intense: 3-5 days per week, 3hr per day minimum. But I can only be in lab part-time for the moment anyway; research labs are just starting to ramp up, but we have to work in shifts to keep personnel density low. So this might be the ideal time to go for it. Especially since I was feeling so ambivalent about whether I'd be able to continue living with this despair past the end of the Spring.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on June 12, 2020, 07:45:18 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 11, 2020, 06:25:30 PM
Thanks for commenting, everybody.

The other TA had said in her email that she would "definitely" check in with me once her quals were finished. They were scheduled several days ago. I texted her recently saying "Hi. How did your quals go?" No response. I didn't get my hopes up for a response this time, so I'm not feeling too hurt by this. I do find it puzzling.

She seemed so concerned earlier; there was such urgency in her voice when she told me to let her know if there was anything she could do to help. And I had explicitly told her, I had treatment providers I could contact for crises/emergencies. What she could do to help was just have a friendly chat with me once in a while; some human interaction to cut through the isolation. She seemed relieved I had told her a way to help and eager to follow up.

Why ignore me then?

During my own low periods I've had similar experiences of acquaintances offering to help and then failing to follow through.  It can be deeply upsetting.  It feels like you're being kicked when you're down.  I've learned in hindsight not to take it too personally.  Sometimes people honestly want to help, but then the rest of their lives just get in the way and keep them from following through.  When you feel yourself so desperately in need of help this can hurt a lot.  But you don't need to add to your burden of concern by wondering why she did this. 

Just try to forgive her and let it go, and continue treating her in a friendly manner.  It will help you in the long run.  Please trust me on this.  I've been there.  Been there in recent months, in fact.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on June 12, 2020, 09:40:47 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 11, 2020, 06:25:30 PM
I'll probably look around for a new psychiatrist, but I'm reluctant to leave my current one as he has been one of the best doctors I've ever had for meds management. I'd rather have someone who forgets appointments at times but thinks carefully about my medical history and strategically about medication changes than someone who is always punctual but prescribes haphazardly.

Ask for a referral.  It is entirely reasonable to want someone who does good meds management and manages to keep appointments.  These are not rare and unusual skills that are seldom found in combination.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: permanent imposter on June 12, 2020, 05:52:20 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 11, 2020, 06:25:30 PM
It sounds intense: 3-5 days per week, 3hr per day minimum. But I can only be in lab part-time for the moment anyway; research labs are just starting to ramp up, but we have to work in shifts to keep personnel density low.

I'm quite curious about this therapy program and I wonder what you'd be doing three hours a day. If you feel up to it, please share your experience!

I agree with what others said about the flaky friend. Put your energy into taking care of yourself; we might never know what other people are thinking or what's going on in their lives.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on June 13, 2020, 06:59:19 AM
I believe I mentioned this before, but a reminder: when I was suicidal, my therapist not only kept our weekly appointments, but checked in with me by phone mid week. There are people who will go the extra mile.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on June 13, 2020, 07:42:24 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on June 13, 2020, 06:59:19 AM
I believe I mentioned this before, but a reminder: when I was suicidal, my therapist not only kept our weekly appointments, but checked in with me by phone mid week. There are people who will go the extra mile.

Yes, that's the kind of thing to look for in a therapist.  Missing appointments with fragile people is really, really not good.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on June 13, 2020, 01:41:36 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 13, 2020, 07:42:24 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on June 13, 2020, 06:59:19 AM
I believe I mentioned this before, but a reminder: when I was suicidal, my therapist not only kept our weekly appointments, but checked in with me by phone mid week. There are people who will go the extra mile.

Yes, that's the kind of thing to look for in a therapist.  Missing appointments with fragile people is really, really not good.

mahagonny, good to know there are therapists who do seem to care. Good to know you had one when in a time of great need.

RE: the other TA. I'm back to being worried that something is wrong. Still haven't heard anything from her, and apparently the professor has been getting emails recently from her students (some emailing multiple times as their earlier emails were unanswered) asking for their homework scores or when they will get feedback on the earlier drafts of their paper (final version due next week). Surprising because when we had TA meetings with the professor (every 1-2 weeks) he would ask us about these things and she had said weeks ago she had given everybody their scored homework assignments and feedback for the paper. I used to feel bad that I wasn't getting tasks like this completed as quickly as she seemed to be.

Professor has asked for another TA meeting next week; haven't seen her response.

Don't know what to make of this or if I should do anything specific to try to check on her...
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on June 13, 2020, 02:17:52 PM
Quote. I'm back to being worried that something is wrong.

Im not sure how to best approach this.  As I was finishing my PhD program, I had a friend (still do) that went through a terrible time. However, I was not able to help him.  Had I tried, he would have pulled me under, risking us both.  I suppose that the way to think about it is to think about those people in the ice fields.  They tie everyone together.  The idea is that the weight of the group will help anchor the one that falls down the hill or into a crevasse. However, every now and again, in order to save the others, it is necessary to cut the ties that bind everyone together and prevent  the one that has fallen from dragging the others down.

In my case, I had to 'cut my friend loose'.  Years later I talked to him about how bad I had felt for having to do that, but he was just glad that we were still friends and he remarked how grateful he was for the help and support I was able to provide.

In this case, it seems that you have enough of a load to carry, and you can not take on the burden of your (flaky) friend.  I m not saying to cut all communication, but to use your mental energy to worry about them is not helping either of you!  The other TA has your number.  IF he/she needs to talk about their issues or asks for help that is one thing, but to worry because they have reduced their communication with others is not exactly your problem. It IS the employing professor's problem!  Leave the problem and solution to the one that it belongs to!

In the end, you can only take care of yourself.  You can not help those that are unwilling to accept it, and the first step in accepting it, is to communicate the need for it!   Your TA 'friend' is in the throws of comps, as I recall, and that is a very selfish time in the program. By necessity, one must focus on oneself in order to graduate.  Only the student can complete the tasks necessary! 

Again, I wish you luck in your own issues, but I suggest that you divert your worry to more constructive areas.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on June 13, 2020, 03:36:39 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 13, 2020, 01:41:36 PM

Don't know what to make of this or if I should do anything specific to try to check on her...

Put your own oxygen mask on first.

Let others take on the care of the TA.

You have a new therapist to find.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on June 18, 2020, 03:48:49 PM
Does anyone have a go to coping mechanism for the type of intense emotional pain that gives you a physical sensation of being kicked in the stomach and chest? It's the kind that has you concentrating to keep your breathing regular and that causes fits of violent sobbing (to the point of muscle soreness, like after overdoing it on ab day).

It's been building all this week and starting yesterday it reached unbearable levels. I don't know how to shut it off.

None of my (therapist-sanctioned) go-to's are having much effect: deep breathing, cold water bath, meditation, distraction with work, tv, or radio; can't find a friend available to talk; can't walk outside for long because of leg issues, and even if that wasn't the case I know better than to go out when I feel like this; can't play piano because of hand injury; cat's in the mood to be left alone; crisis hotline would just make me feel worse; trying to avoid taking anything sedating b/c of the temptation to overdose

I need an alternative.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on June 18, 2020, 03:53:19 PM
Sit in a chair... like a dining room chair, no arms is better.

lift your legs, but dont lock your feet on the chair, and use your muscles to hold them up.

Now swing your arms back and forth rapidly.

This uses core muscles to hold your legs up and moves your upper body with your arms swinging.

It is a good way to get some exercise when you are unable to get around (because of leg injuries).

(make sure that you have plenty of room... dont hit your hands on things while swinging them!)

My primary care provider recommended this to me.  It can be a bit of a work out! 
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: the_geneticist on June 18, 2020, 04:53:08 PM
OK, you really really really need to go to a new doctor.  You are describing panic attacks.

Have you tried focusing on wiggling your toes?  It's what NASA recommends for ignoring crippling nausea and other discomforts.  Take off your socks & shoes and see if you can wiggle just one big toe.  Then the other toe.  Then just the small toes on one foot.  Then just the small toes on the other foot.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on June 18, 2020, 05:25:42 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 18, 2020, 04:53:08 PM
OK, you really really really need to go to a new doctor.  You are describing panic attacks.

Yep.

smallcleanrat, a warm bath with an engaging novel and a glass of my favorite pop can be a relaxing distraction when I can't go anywhere.

Another choice is a huge jigsaw puzzle and a favorite movie.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on June 19, 2020, 04:04:58 PM
Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.
Some things helped; problem is I can't keep it up 24/7, and when I stop everything is back.

Next Monday was the day I decided to allow myself to reevaluate my pros and cons for suicide. I put off considering it until my TA-ship was done. Well, due to the chaotic world that was spring term, several students opted for incompletes and have until end of Fall term to turn in all their work. It seems the expectation is that I will be available for grading when the incomplete work comes in. I don't know.

I told prof I would try to be available for the grading; he would like answer keys for the entire term's worth of homework just in case he has to grade any. I don't see a chance of the other TA taking half...or any...to share the load, as she seems to have decided to pretend I don't exist. I guess it'll give me something to do.

Cross-referencing the venting thread: if he and the other TA would just communicate with me as a person I think it would go a long way toward easing this pain. I know I can reach out to hotlines and message my health care providers, but I'm starving for interaction that makes me feel like a real person who has a place in this world among other real people. I don't want to be just somebody's job.

I'm not close with my family, I don't know anymore where I stand with SO, my friends are preoccupied with their own lives... This TAship was more or less the center of my world this Spring. I'm not expecting the prof and other TA to take on the role of friend or family, but it often feels they don't think much of me as a colleague either...or a fellow human being.

I sent messages asking if previous messages were received, as many have gone unanswered. I explain I want to at least know if my messages are arriving or if there is possibly something wrong with the system. These messages are also unanswered. Other messages sent within the same time frame were answered, so either some are not getting through, are not getting noticed, or are being selectively ignored.

I have times these days in which I'm doubting my own existence. So much silence when I try to connect with people, even people who claim to love me. I wonder if I'm just dreaming I am reaching out; I feel detached from my body, like an automaton. It's probably a major reason people don't want to interact with my. Vicious cycle and all that...

I have a chain of thoughts going through my head on repeat:
--> Some people in my life are aware that I am suicidal.
--> These people then express "concern" and say I can contact them "any time" if I need their help in any way.
--> These same people then become persistently uncommunicative when you ask for their attention, even though you try to limit yourself to small requests (e.g. a friendly phone chat, an email exchange checking in/catching up). Either promises are made and not kept (with no explanation as to why and no message beforehand canceling any plans that may have been made). Or there is no response at all. The common courtesy option of firing back a brief message saying you're sorry, but you won't be available then (or maybe for the next week or month) is rarely taken.

Potential Explanations my brain comes up with:
--> Expressing concern and offering help were just expressions people feel are socially mandated in such situations. They never intended to follow through (or perhaps they did but didn't think ahead as to whether or not they would actually be willing and able to do so), and feel it would be too awkward to tell you this.
--> The expressions were sincere but in the meantime they have become sick of you and would prefer not to interact with you more than strictly necessary. For one reason or another, they opt not to tell you this, so they simply withdraw without explanation.
--> The expressions were a lure, and ignoring you when you ask for interaction is their way of communicating either that they don't care what happens to you or they are hoping you will go ahead and kill yourself. These are not socially acceptable things to say out loud, so they say it with silence.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Puget on June 19, 2020, 06:01:22 PM
smallcleanrat,

We're here. We hear you. Please keep talking with us.

Maybe it would be good to talk about something light and normal for a while, get out of the spirally thoughts-- would would you like to chat about?

We could talk about cats  (I've been taking mine into the back yard with harnesses-- an interesting adventure!).

We could talk about science-- I'm in the sciences too, but not in your field I don't think--I'm always interested in hearing the accessible version of other people's research.

We could talk about books, or TV shows, or music.

We could even talk about the weather. I'm happy to whine about how hot and sticky it suddenly is here.

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on June 19, 2020, 06:09:09 PM
Quote from: Puget on June 19, 2020, 06:01:22 PM
smallcleanrat,

We're here. We hear you. Please keep talking with us.

Agreed!  As a community, we have more collective energy than any one person.

We can talk about anything.  If nothing on Puget's list is appealing, then we're open to other topics.

Keep reaching out!

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Cheerful on June 19, 2020, 07:37:53 PM
You're a very good writer, smallcleanrat, and a good person with compassion for others.  What about sharing those gifts with elderly people who are lonely?  Here is a relatively easy letter-writing effort I read about where people are sending kind letters to the elderly:

https://lovefortheelderly.org/letters

"We need your help. We want you to write letter(s) that will uplift an elderly stranger!"

You write a nice card and mail to them and they'll send it to someone who could use some cheer.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on June 20, 2020, 09:19:43 AM
QuoteI told prof I would try to be available for the grading; he would like answer keys for the entire term's worth of homework just in case he has to grade any. I don't see a chance of the other TA taking half...or any...to share the load, as she seems to have decided to pretend I don't exist. I guess it'll give me something to do.

QuoteI sent messages asking if previous messages were received, as many have gone unanswered. I explain I want to at least know if my messages are arriving or if there is possibly something wrong with the system. These messages are also unanswered.

First, if you have to write anything new, dont if you are not being paid!!  IF this is simply a matter of sending what you have already done, then put together about half that you are willing to bundle, email them to the prof and the other TA with a notation about what you have done and what is missing.  "I have completed assignments 2,3,6,9, &10 leaving 1,4,5,7,& 8 for Other TA to submit.  I look forward to working with you again in the Fall!"

Send something like that message with the rubrics you have to the professor with other TA CCd and be done with it.
Wait 2 business days and if he does NOT reply, print them and mail  them (with a stamp, like in the olden days!) with a printout of the email showing the sent time and address with a hand written note, "I wanted to be sure that you received the assignment information. As of 6/X I had not received a reply from you or otherTA, but I felt it important that I ensure that your received the material. I look forward to working with you in the fall!"

As for the rest of your email, I am sure that there are other outlets for finding people to talk to, even in the days of CV19.  The letter writing effort seems especially worthwhile!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on June 23, 2020, 12:15:05 PM
Quote from: Puget on June 19, 2020, 06:01:22 PM
smallcleanrat,

We're here. We hear you. Please keep talking with us.

Maybe it would be good to talk about something light and normal for a while, get out of the spirally thoughts-- would would you like to chat about?

We could talk about cats  (I've been taking mine into the back yard with harnesses-- an interesting adventure!).

We could talk about science-- I'm in the sciences too, but not in your field I don't think--I'm always interested in hearing the accessible version of other people's research.

We could talk about books, or TV shows, or music.

We could even talk about the weather. I'm happy to whine about how hot and sticky it suddenly is here.

Quote from: polly_mer on June 19, 2020, 06:09:09 PM
Quote from: Puget on June 19, 2020, 06:01:22 PM
smallcleanrat,

We're here. We hear you. Please keep talking with us.

Agreed!  As a community, we have more collective energy than any one person.

We can talk about anything.  If nothing on Puget's list is appealing, then we're open to other topics.

Keep reaching out!



Thanks so much, Puget and polly_mer. It's a good idea; and I especially appreciate the words of support. I'll try to think of a few things to post on the Water Cooler and Cat threads. I'm trying to distract from the hurt; it's just not easy.

[Rant Ahead]
Maybe I have a knee-jerk aversion to the expression "don't take it personally," because it's what my parents would constantly say to get me to roll over and accept abusive behavior. "Oh, your mom threw a glass at you and you got nicked by the shards? Well, she didn't actually hit you with it. She was just upset and needed an outlet. Don't take it so personally." "Oh, your mom says having a kid was the worst mistake she ever made and because of you she's miserable and has no future. Well, your mom has some issues, you know that; she says things she doesn't mean. Stop crying! You take everything too personally."

Had an email exchange with the prof. about being cut off during last lecture and subsequent meetings. He says he doesn't remember doing it, it wasn't personal, and remember people are very stressed at moment and I should try to think about what other people are dealing with. It's the response I get from most everybody about everything. 'It's not personal, I just forgot/didn't think of you at all.' The implication seems to be that I am out of line to express hurt or wish for an explanation or ask to be treated with more consideration; don't I know people are dealing with more important things in their lives? I do know; that's why it hurts.

If it were just typical hurt feelings or day-to-day annoyances, those responses are perfectly reasonable. But to know that me being in pain to the point of being suicidal merits no more consideration than if I were irked that someone mispronounced my name...it tells me how little I really matter. Maybe because the pain is primarily mental/emotional, it doesn't seem serious. Get a grip, stop thinking of yourself, and quit taking it personally when people ignore you, or lie to you, or break promises. If you're hurt it's your own damn fault. You don't know what they're going through. Oh, you're upset and sad? So is the rest of the world; you aren't special. Oh, you want to kill yourself? How is that my problem? Go see a therapist.

So on top of feeling invisible and insignificant, I feel guilty and selfish on top of everything else. I honestly loathe myself so much right now, I want to pull out of everything: grad school, treatment, my relationships. I'm just taking up spots other people could make better use of. If I can't stand being around me, why should anyone else?

I can only see going forward if I can find a way to make this inner pain less acute. It's more than melancholy, it's deep, visceral sensations of my existence being wrong, wrong, wrong.
[Rant Over. Thanks for your patience.]

Cheerful, I like the sentiment behind your suggestion (and thanks so much for complimenting my writing!). I looked over the link though, and it says they only accept handwritten letters, no typing. Currently my dominant hand is injured, and my non-dominant handwriting is hardly legible. Also, it's not a pen pal type arrangement; you don't know who is going to get your letter and you never find out. I'd always be wondering if my letter made it and worry about whether the recipient actually got something out of it or if they just found it boring. This is maybe something I can revisit when my hand heals and I'm not so emotionally brittle.

I have been considering volunteering some hours as a writing tutor. Too much going on right no to set that in motion, but it's on my list of potential ways to be useful and less lonely at the same time.

clean, I have shorthand notes but nothing readable to another person. I would have to do some typing and reworking to have answer keys someone else can use. He also asked for step by step solutions for any problems involving calculations. I don't think he will ask Other TA to do anything as "she has a lot going on already."  Right now I'm of a mind to go ahead and do it; if only for the distraction from the thoughts of suicide.

Prof's explanation for why many messages go unanswered: he doesn't check his email or phone often ("it's not personal").
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on June 23, 2020, 12:53:16 PM
Quoteclean, I have shorthand notes but nothing readable to another person. I would have to do some typing and reworking to have answer keys someone else can use. He also asked for step by step solutions for any problems involving calculations. I don't think he will ask Other TA to do anything as "she has a lot going on already."  Right now I'm of a mind to go ahead and do it; if only for the distraction from the thoughts of suicide.

Here is my advice, do with it what you please. 
You and your labor are worth something.  Dont give it away.  IF you want to write the plans up as a distraction, then by all means, do so!  However, I suggest that you wait until classes start and you are rehired to provide the requested information.  IF you are not going to be paid for doing new work, then dont volunteer to provide it. The professor is not a charity!  IF he values the information then he will pay for it, or rather make sure that the university pays for it by  rehiring your in the fall.  As for the other TA whose personal life is to important to interrupt with a request, take a lesson from it.  Your life is also too important to interrupt with free requests. 
Take a lesson from the Prof too!  Take your time to respond to his messages!  As you are not being paid to be at his beck and call, then reply when you feel like it. No rush.  You may even make a game of it.  Dont reply to any messages for 2 or 3 days.  Then start with, 'I just saw your message as I only occasionally check my work email requests in the summer.  I can get on that request in a few days if I have the time to spare'.

I am aware of an old book on dating that was written for women/girls.  It was called something like "The Rules" . ( I just googled it.  It was written in 1995 and there is a second book The Rules II).  It is, as I said, a book on dating, but it essentially (from what I recall as it has been almost 25 years since I read it) is about how to make yourself more attractive by not being instantly available. 

Not to transition to 'book club' on a book that I havent read in decades, but I remember one piece of advice was IF he asked you out for Saturday, he had to do it before Wednesday. IF he asked on Thursday or Friday, you have to say that you already have other plans... AND DO SO!  MAke other plans!  Similarly, make a schedule for yourself for the next 4 or 5 days.  Should the prof come calling, wait a few days to reply (Dont wait by the phone - another piece of advice if I recall), and then let him know that you have already booked the next 4/5 days, but that you will pencil in his request for next week.

Anyway, I digress. 

Summary:
IF you want to do this work as a distraction, go ahead!  BUT dont volunteer the fruits of your labor until you know what the going rate on fruit is! 
  You are not in a position to doing Charity Work for a university or professor (above what being in grad school extracts from you!)  When you are back on the payroll, provide the goods then, but maybe not all at once!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Puget on June 23, 2020, 03:56:12 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 23, 2020, 12:15:05 PM
Thanks so much, Puget and polly_mer. It's a good idea; and I especially appreciate the words of support. I'll try to think of a few things to post on the Water Cooler and Cat threads. I'm trying to distract from the hurt; it's just not easy.

Great-- I'll be looking out for your posts!
Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 23, 2020, 12:15:05 PMMaybe I have a knee-jerk aversion to the expression "don't take it personally,"

I can totally understand how that can be used and heard in a way that invalidates and tries to control your feelings. Some things clearly are personal, including the examples you give from your parents, and I'm very sorry you went through that. Other things truly aren't personal, but that doesn't mean other people get to tell you how you should feel about them-- you get to feel how you feel.

A therapist I co-teach a class with has what I think is  a very helpful way of talking about the balance between accepting and changing emotions. He teaches that all initial emotional reactions to things are valid-- you feel what you feel, and you should give yourself permission to feel it and observe what you are feeling without judgement. Then, once you've non-judgmentally observed your reaction, you can step back and decide what to do next with that emotion next. Are the thoughts driving that emotion true? Are they helpful? If not, you can take steps to change them to be more realistic and helpful, or engage in an activity that will help you feel better, and doing so doesn't invalidate the initial emotion. So it is not a contradiction to both accept the fact that you feel deeply betrayed and hurt by failures to respond to your communications, and that this is a totally valid way to feel, but then decide that it is not helpful or accurate to think that this means you are not worthy of their notice and respect, and that it is more helpful and accurate to think this is about their flakiness or other issues and not about you personally.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on June 23, 2020, 05:13:03 PM
I'm glad to see you posting, smallcleanrat.

Sometimes, it is definitely personal.  The jerk at the stop sign probably isn't personally targeting you 

However, the human who has an ongoing relationship who regularly 'forgets' appointments or 'doesn't check emails' when they were expecting correspondence from you is just wrong.

They may tell themselves anything they like, but they are wrong on it not being personal.

The best action I've found is to get better friends and colleagues who are able to manage their time to keep planned interactions.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Cheerful on June 23, 2020, 07:06:58 PM
Thanks for posting, smallcleanrat.  Always wishing you the best.  You are a good person. 

Fight on!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: OneMoreYear on June 24, 2020, 08:31:17 AM
Good to see you writing here, smallcleanrat.  You are worthy. 

Keep reaching out here and any other threads that appeal to you.  Agree with Cheerful; you are a good writer. Your posts are clear, organized, descriptive. If you like language and word-play, join us on some of the fun and games threads.  There's probably a stalled limerick somewhere.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on June 24, 2020, 12:08:15 PM
Thanks so much for the replies, everyone. I think I'm almost through to the other side of this episode. I'm at a point where I feel I've identified why I was in so much distress over this.

Thing #1: Lack of Common Courtesy; Implicit Accusation of Thoughtlessness
Thoughts started to gel after my PI got the days mixed up in his head and ended up being over 30 minutes late for our weekly meeting. I wasn't the slightest bit hurt or annoyed or offended. And so much had to do with the fact that 1) this is not a habitual occurrence and 2) PI apologized and explained he was just juggling so many things this week he lost track of days.

Contrasting that to the course professor's responses to me helped me see why I felt so hurt. When I mention he cut me off from speaking three meetings in a row, someone else may have said "I did? Sorry about that. I didn't mean to." This acknowledges that their actions may have been inconsiderate, even if it "wasn't personal."

Instead he scolds me saying he's been in lockdown with family for months, he sees patients throughout the week, is experiencing a lot of stress, and I need to keep that in mind. He defends Other TA saying she just finished quals, has earned a break, took a few days off for R&R, so I need to consider she has a perfectly good reason for not being able to respond to any of my messages. Maybe she is going through a tough time herself. I need to consider how much stress everyone else is under.

Well, I know my PI is under a lot of stress managing the research ramp up while juggling a family during a time schools and day cares are still closed. He still had enough mental bandwidth to express common courtesy.

And the implication that I lack empathy and was not considering other people's potential stressors felt harsh and unwarranted.

Thing #2: Feeling Less Than the Others
Another element is the feeling of being singled out. If he were treating everyone this way, I could shrug it off as just a factor of his personality. But throughout the term he's been very emphatic in our meetings that we need to consider how chaotic and stressful this term is for everyone, and to do our best to show the students compassion and leniency as far as is reasonable (i.e. be generous with extensions, be available for 1-on-1 tutoring, give them words of encouragement, etc...).

Students have been emailing throughout term regarding sick relatives, poor WiFi in their home area, medical issues, stress about the state of the world overall, and needing to follow their conscience to protest instead of attending class. The Prof. has replied to all of these with an understanding, sympathetic tone, granting extensions and excused absences. He also frequently asks Other TA how she is doing, if the stress of grant-writing or quals is too much, tells her she deserves a break after all that work. Sometimes he would ask me if my workload was manageable or if I needed help/more time, which was nice of him; but I was asked less consistently and my answers were cut off far more quickly, especially as term went on. For the last month or so, he pretty much just stopped asking how I was doing. He didn't stop asking Other TA.

Why are my difficulties worth less consideration than the students' and Other TA's?

Thing #3: Expectations vs. Outcomes
If my wants would have required a substantial amount of someone's time, energy, and mental resources, I could understand being declined, even avoided. But I had thought my wishes here were modest, low-effort, and not outside the realm of normal for the situation (a few minutes more in that last meeting for friendly goodbyes and well-wishing before we went our separate ways; a 15-minute friendly phone chat, or at least a 10-second message canceling said chat; a few lines of an email with some explanation of why none of these things could happen when it could ease so much of my distress). It was hard to accept Other TA and the Prof. would find them onerous to the point of the Prof. scolding me for expecting it and Other TA ghosting me. I thought I had a little more value to them as a human being than that; a painful revelation to learn I was wrong.

Additionally, this is *after* Other TA and Prof. had expressed "concern" and had offered to be available if I needed help.

Thing #4: Completing the Picture
Feeling a fit of conscience to be fair to Other TA and Prof., because there were actually many ways in which they were quite nice to me. Other TA covered my discussions when I was too sick to attend. Prof. sent me multiple complimentary messages on the quality of my feedback on the students' term paper drafts and the students' expressions of gratitude for how dedicated I was to helping them. Both Prof. and Other TA did seem sincere when they offered their support RE: my health which gave me a temporary reprieve from feeling so alone. I'm not so bitter I can't still be grateful for these actions.

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on June 24, 2020, 01:11:45 PM
Hi Smallcleanrat,
It is reasonable to be hurt by another's inconsiderate actions, especially when it seems like they are more considerate to other people. Whether or not they intended to hurt you, they did. The impact of their actions (promising to help and then not following through or singling you out) hurt. That doesn't mean that you deserve to be hurt, or that you are lesser in any way. But you can't control their actions or reactions; you can only work on your own. Part of that might be recognizing that they can be jerks, or accepting that, whatever they are, they aren't that important to your wellbeing right now. Try to find strength and peace where ever you can. You don't need, and probably can't afford, to invest energy elsewhere. Take care of you (and your kitty).
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Cheerful on June 25, 2020, 05:59:02 AM
As you know, writing things out can be therapeutic and productive, smallcleanrat.  Good to try to look at things from multiple angles.  As you recognize, people are laboring under substantial stress during these unprecedented times.  Nice to see your reflections conclude with efforts to identify some positive elements in a complex, unpleasant series of events.  Stay strong, fight on!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on June 26, 2020, 02:02:55 PM
Trying to pull myself out of this suffocating sense of self-loathing; suicidality had just started to come down in intensity until I had a conversation yesterday. What I assume was meant to be helpful advice left me feeling absolutely worthless. Nothing I haven't heard before countless times, but somehow it's hitting me harder than it ever has.

1) Being told about people who maintain positive attitudes and optimistic outlooks even in the face of serious challenges: cancer, epilepsy, autoimmune disease...you know, real illnesses. Really puts your own problems seem small in comparison, doesn't it?

Not sure what it says about me if my answer is "no." Maybe I'm ungrateful. Maybe I'm a wimp, unable to handle minor adversity. But if what I'm dealing with not serious then I'm really not equipped to handle real life.

2) Being told to count my blessings and think of the talents and other advantages I have that other people never will.

Had some of this in previous "gratitude" therapy groups. I'm acutely aware of how good I have it, objectively speaking. But I feel nothing but emptiness. These advantages are wasted on me; pearls before swine. And when fatigue or pain or mental fog prevents you from using any of your talents, what's the advantage of having them in the first place?

3) "Laugh and the world laughs with you; cry, and you cry alone"

I know this is often true enough from a descriptive standpoint. What is the prescriptive message? Never expect solidarity or consolation during your difficult times? Force yourself to laugh when you feel like crying so people won't abandon you? Tried it; the whole fake-it-til-you-make it routine. Maybe it makes things easier for the people around me, but living a lie just enhances the feeling of not fitting into this world. Kept it up for years, not that I ever get credit for this; only censure when I reach my limits and can't do it anymore.

Or is the message to transform your inner experiences so your laugh is genuine. Do people really not think that if I knew a way to do this, I would have done it by now?

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Puget on June 26, 2020, 02:16:20 PM
 smallcleanrat,
I agree that advice, while well-intentioned, is not helpful, and sends the incorrect message that worth depends on being happy, grateful etc.,

I think American culture in general way over-emphasized the need to be happy, in a way that makes people feel bad about not being happy, and also on productivity as a source of value. You are worthy and of infinite value just because you are, not because of what you produce or what you feel.

I wonder if it might be helpful for you to read some Buddhist thinking about suffering and meaning? Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) which has a pretty strong empirical evidence base, also incorporates some of these ideas.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on June 26, 2020, 02:24:17 PM
Ah, I'm with you, smallcleanrat, that knowing other people have it worse doesn't often help for the big picture.

I have no good advice except to disengage with people who are always looking on the bright side when you need something else for the real problems you have.

Put your own oxygen mask on first and let that be your focus for now.  That's what you need and you count.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on June 26, 2020, 02:29:07 PM
Yes, I was just thinking that some earlier readings might be helpful as well.

Topics like compassion, transcendence and transformation can offer consolation.

Also, I often recall a reading I was told about a long time ago, said to have been by Lao T'su:

   "We learn perfection by moving in and out of it."

The amplitude of the swing may be a bit wide every now and again, but we still each have moments of joy and self-worth, and focusing on those can help to fill the emptiness from time to time, too.

I tell my art and music students to build up a storehouse of remembered visual and/or musical works, to recall when they need to compare something with something else--as we often do in a test--or just to be able to recall on their own, when they want to think about something engaging and healing.

You've done a lot of work in the past few weeks, and you have a lot more support than you had.

People here, who know you now, want to see you find that sense of contentment you're seeking.

You've also learned how to evaluate what's safe to continue with and what you need to let go of--and what to replace it with.

That understanding will continue to grow as you keep reaching out.

Keep knowing you are valued and you are cared for.

M.   
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: quasihumanist on June 26, 2020, 05:19:24 PM
I'm sorry I haven't had the mental bandwidth to help, but I want to chime in to wish smallcleanrat well and thank everyone else for helping.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on June 26, 2020, 06:01:34 PM
If contentment works for you, smallcleanrat, then reread mamselle's advice.

I've never found that kind of advice useful.  I've always been a bigger fan of figuring out what I can change and then finding the courage to make the change with 'faith' that I could find new friends, new colleagues, and new chosen family.

I left one graduate program and city because everything was always wrong there.  Going somewhere that I fit better with people who wanted the same things I want and value fixed a lot of problems.  That made every day easier, even though research and courses remained intellectually challenging in a good way.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on June 26, 2020, 09:44:47 PM
I also agree with Polly that doing specific things can help.

I think both approaches are complementary. Sometimes we have agency to resolve things through direct action, and we need to do that whenever possible.

Sometimes we need to approach the decision-making and action-taking with a clearer mind and heart.

So how they are balanced out is different for each person.

Part of the work one does is figuring out what that balance feels like and recognizing when we're there and when we're not.

I didn't mean to imply those as exclusive paths. Take what's useful and use it freely.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on June 27, 2020, 05:57:51 AM
Quote from: mamselle on June 26, 2020, 09:44:47 PM
I also agree with Polly that doing specific things can help.

I think both approaches are complementary. Sometimes we have agency to resolve things through direct action, and we need to do that whenever possible.

Sometimes we need to approach the decision-making and action-taking with a clearer mind and heart.

So how they are balanced out is different for each person.

Part of the work one does is figuring out what that balance feels like and recognizing when we're there and when we're not.

I didn't mean to imply those as exclusive paths. Take what's useful and use it freely.

M.

Agreed.

In case it has to be said, it's also possible to simultaneously have a chemical problem that needs to be addressed by medicine and a mismatch between one's current situation and one's more optimal situations.

Telling someone to look on the bright side isn't going to fix a chemical problem that needs effective medicine.  Those cancer patients aren't getting better from just their positive attitudes.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on June 27, 2020, 04:27:18 PM
Quote from: Puget on June 26, 2020, 02:16:20 PM
I wonder if it might be helpful for you to read some Buddhist thinking about suffering and meaning? Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) which has a pretty strong empirical evidence base, also incorporates some of these ideas.

I seem to have cleared all hurdles to enter the treatment program I applied for; they think I should do partial hospitalization instead of outpatient, which is going to be intense. ACT is one of the methods they use. I've had a bit of it in the past, but was never able to get someone to help me past the "acceptance" part to the "take action" part.

Quote from: polly_mer on June 26, 2020, 02:24:17 PM
Ah, I'm with you, smallcleanrat, that knowing other people have it worse doesn't often help for the big picture.

I suppose there are times when reminding yourself how things might be worse has some value. But I think it's simplistic to think you can rank the "seriousness" of potential problems. My SO has autoimmune disease, but on the mild end of the spectrum. Some people with severer forms of his condition require multiple surgeries and frequent hospitalizations; SO has to take daily meds and has had to give up some things he used to enjoy, but overall his day-to-day life is fairly normal. Is SO suffering more with his autoimmune disease than I am with my psych issues, because he has a "real illness" and I have...what? An attitude problem?

It reminds me a bit of hearing people try to argue that physical abuse is objectively worse than emotional abuse (or vice versa), as though the suffering caused by each could be neatly quantified and compared. Life is more complicated than that; human experiences are too variable.

Quote from: quasihumanist on June 26, 2020, 05:19:24 PM
I'm sorry I haven't had the mental bandwidth to help, but I want to chime in to wish smallcleanrat well and thank everyone else for helping.


Thank you for posting, quasihumanist. It's nice to pseudo-meet you.

mamselle and polly_mer, you both raise good points, and I agree the combined approach makes the most sense. Although trying to get advice about how you can tell the difference between what you can change and what you can't has gotten me nowhere. "Good question. I guess you just have to trust your own judgment." Do therapists really think that's a helpful statement? Especially after telling me previously that my thought processes are being distorted by the depression/mania?

Quote from: polly_mer on June 27, 2020, 05:57:51 AM
In case it has to be said, it's also possible to simultaneously have a chemical problem that needs to be addressed by medicine and a mismatch between one's current situation and one's more optimal situations.

Telling someone to look on the bright side isn't going to fix a chemical problem that needs effective medicine.  Those cancer patients aren't getting better from just their positive attitudes.

This +1000. I would also add that those positive attitudes can be facades put on for the sake of other people (or to ward off pity). Perhaps they are feeling despair, you just don't know about it. I can't count the number of times someone has told me I "look good" or "seem so much better" or am "in good spirits" when in reality I was exhausted and in pain. But there's no particular reason for an acquaintance or classmate or such to know that.

I have certainly forced myself to go through the motions of life; it won't necessarily reduce the suffering. "Spend some time doing something you enjoy." What if you perform the action, but have no feelings at all? No enjoyment; nothing. Or if you are so exhausted and befogged that you honestly cannot engage in activity? "Don't dwell on sad things." What if the tears and despair emerge as purely physiological, similar to hiccups? Nothing is wrong, I'm fully aware nothing is wrong, I'm crying anyway. Some spells are like that.

"You have to believe you're going to get better." Why? Every therapist conveniently ignores the fact that years before this depressive bout, I was debilitated by migraines, chronic fatigue, and vestibular symptoms. And in the meantime, my hands and feet have reduced feeling and function. No underlying cause identified, no treatment plan in place; doctors have told me not to come back because they can't do anything for me. If the depression lifts but I'm still left with all of these issues and the accompanying brain fog, I still don't see a future for myself. How can I earn a living? What chance would I have at a career? Raising a family?

No one will address these questions with me. It's always "you will get better; focus on that." What do they think I've been doing for the past five years? I want to know what happens if I don't get better. Are there other treatment avenues I can explore? If I have to accept this as my new normal, if I have to accept I will never be as strong, energetic, and healthy as I used to be, how can I plan a life for myself that I find worth living?

Why does everybody pretend they can't hear me when I ask about this?

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on June 27, 2020, 05:06:57 PM
Hi Smallcleanrat, You ask some really hard questions. And I have no easy answers. I just want you to know that I hear you, and I am very pleased that you are continuing to reach out for help even though it's hard and exhausting, and some people's responses are really unhelpful. You are still strong for continuing. The treatment program you've applied for sounds interesting. When does it begin?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on June 27, 2020, 07:31:41 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 27, 2020, 04:27:18 PM
Why does everybody pretend they can't hear me when I ask about this?

I hear you.  Like Morden, I have no easy answers to the hard questions.

I have found reading novels from various countries and eras helpful to learn about lives that I've not gotten to observe.

I've had bouts of reading fantasy and science fiction for the same goal of trying to gather information regarding establishing a good life within my current and near-certain future constraints.

Since you've mentioned finding comfort in books, maybe more reading for targeted questions may help.

I have found much less use in reading biographies because they tend to gloss the parts that would be useful to me.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Cheerful on June 27, 2020, 07:43:19 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 27, 2020, 04:27:18 PM
I seem to have cleared all hurdles to enter the treatment program I applied for; they think I should do partial hospitalization instead of outpatient, which is going to be intense. ACT is one of the methods they use. I've had a bit of it in the past, but was never able to get someone to help me past the "acceptance" part to the "take action" part.

Sounds like good news, smallcleanrat!  Huge credit to you for investigating this program and applying.  This could help make the next five years of your life hugely better than the last five.  A major quality in your favor is that you are smart.  You have the intellectual ability to readily grasp and apply tools, knowledge, and insights.  Fight on!

Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 27, 2020, 04:27:18 PM
Why does everybody pretend they can't hear me when I ask about this?

Maybe it's because no one can predict the future.  If you are like me and many others, you may hate uncertainty.  The best advice I've been given for dealing with uncertainty about the future -- and it's rooted in various wise philosophies -- is to focus on the present moment/hour/day and try to find the best in that moment or ways to make the next moment better.

For example, we don't know what will happen with the pandemic and when.  For now, we cope in our  own best ways and hold fast to the promise of brighter days.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on June 27, 2020, 08:02:46 PM
Quote from: Cheerful on June 27, 2020, 07:43:19 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 27, 2020, 04:27:18 PM
I seem to have cleared all hurdles to enter the treatment program I applied for; they think I should do partial hospitalization instead of outpatient, which is going to be intense. ACT is one of the methods they use. I've had a bit of it in the past, but was never able to get someone to help me past the "acceptance" part to the "take action" part.

Sounds like good news, smallcleanrat!  Huge credit to you for investigating this program and applying.  This could help make the next five years of your life hugely better than the last five.  A major quality in your favor is that you are smart.  You have the intellectual ability to readily grasp and apply tools, knowledge, and insights.  Fight on!

Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 27, 2020, 04:27:18 PM
Why does everybody pretend they can't hear me when I ask about this?

Maybe it's because no one can predict the future.  If you are like me and many others, you may hate uncertainty.  The best advice I've been given for dealing with uncertainty about the future -- and it's rooted in various wise philosophies -- is to focus on the present moment/hour/day and try to find the best in that moment or ways to make the next moment better.

For example, we don't know what will happen with the pandemic and when.  For now, we cope in our  own best ways and hold fast to the promise of brighter days.

I'm not looking for certainty, I'm looking for contingency planning. Simply accepting as given that I will recover back to full strength would be refusing to acknowledge that the future isn't certain. Is there no room in any of the wise philosophies for thinking of possibilities and planning ahead?

Saying "I definitely will recover" would be attempting to predict the future. Saying "There are still some treatments I can try. I may be able to get better. But, given the lack of clear diagnoses and a treatment plan for many of the other debilitating symptoms, I may not recover fully in the near future." is acknowledging the reality of uncertainty.

If I knew I had alternatives, maybe things wouldn't seem so bleak.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on June 27, 2020, 09:21:32 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 27, 2020, 08:02:46 PM
If I knew I had alternatives, maybe things wouldn't seem so bleak.

Maybe targeted biographies would be helpful to you to give a wider range of possibilities.

Maybe actual cases studies for people who have conditions like yours might help.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on June 27, 2020, 09:32:52 PM
You're right--there is no certainty. None of us knows what will happen next. To a limited extent, we can engage in contingency planning, but it's really easy to spiral into rumination, trying to control the uncontrollable. I think that's why a lot of attention has been given to approaches like mindfulness now. I don't think that means that you can't take steps to help your situation, and you have been doing that--by reaching out to people, by getting a kitten, by applying to the treatment program.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on June 30, 2020, 09:54:12 AM
Thanks so much for all your feedback, everyone. It really helps to know there are people who hear me.

I'm due to start the treatment program next week. It could be a good opportunity to meet some people who are going through similar issues. It will also be isolating in its own way because it will force my lab-times to evenings and weekends when I am less likely to see my lab-mates. Thinking of asking for a Zoom social hour every once in a while.

I've been tagging lots of books on Amazon related to living with chronic illness (managing work, relationships, etc...). Based on the tables of contents, several of them specifically address topics like grieving the loss of your previous life and the future you thought you had, as well as how illness can take a toll on your self-esteem and sense of identity. This is what I could never convince anyone to discuss with me; they kept telling me not to think that way and to just believe I will get back to my old self.

I've been trying to beat back thoughts of worthlessness. It's still difficult to let go of the implication that all I've needed to do all along is change my outlook. One therapy group leader told me that lack of optimism may be the reason previous treatment methods did not work. She didn't know my situation at all. I was optimistic for four and a half years; it was only relatively recently I could no longer maintain it, even though I tried.

I've been thinking about the propensity of some to use the "other people have it worse" approach to...to what? Is this really meant to help or is it mostly meant to shut up the other person's complaints? Because when someone tells me to use willpower to be more upbeat, less withdrawn, less focused on my own pain, more active/productive, it's hard for me not to think of the times that:

1) SO was kept awake later than usual because of some noisy neighbors (probably got around 5-6 hours, instead of his usual 8). He spent the next day groggy, grumpy, and sullen. He complained of how tired he was, how the interrupted sleep made it hard to focus. He went to bed early and felt back to normal the next day.

2) SO wrenched a muscle, which led to several days of pain, foul mood, and low activity. He wasn't interested in conversation or "together time" or anything except sitting still and being left in peace. By the next week, he had recovered, pain was gone, SO's mood back to normal.

3) Former PI came down with a head cold. Complained of lack of focus, feeling "like a zombie", making mistakes with her work. Took the next two days off and came back to lab recovered.

I can think of other people, other examples, but it all comes down to the same principle: people who don't seem to practice what they preach. They don't seem particularly optimistic (even though they have every reason to expect their discomfort to be short-lived), social, or able to function at their normal levels. Why do they expect me to be? When I haven't slept through the night in months. When I've spent years feeling like a zombie far more often than I felt like a human.

Supposing they didn't recover, and they felt that way for years, to the point their careers stalled, relationships withered, their bodies aged while their minds stagnated beneath the fatigue, pain, and disconnection from the world around them. Would they be comforting themselves thinking, "At least it's not [insert worse circumstance here]?" Would they maintain their optimism for the future? If uncertainty is a major stressor, and they had no idea when to expect to feel better, how would they fare?

I can never ask this because 1) it's pointlessly combative and 2) you can't really know how it would affect you unless you've lived it. But I wonder if, were the question(s) posed to them, they would imagine themselves as never giving in to despair, never succumbing to utter exhaustion or loneliness, and getting through by sheer determination and willpower.

Am I really so much less resilient than everyone else?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Puget on June 30, 2020, 10:26:22 AM
SCR,
I'm glad to hear about the treatment program-- I hope it is helpful! It also seems like it might really help to have a therapist who specializes in clients with chronic illnesses-- health psychology is the subfield at the intersection of physical and mental health, if that helps search. In the meantime hopefully some of the books will be helpful.

I very much doubt you are less resilient than other people (you seem very resilient under the circumstances!), and I don't know why people say those things-- probably most of them think they are being helpful, and maybe for some of them thinking that way actually is helpful. Perhaps you could tell them "I know you are trying to be helpful, and I appreciate that, but this isn't actually helpful for me. What would be helpful is if you could [having a conversation about something fun, or whatever would be helpful right then]."
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on June 30, 2020, 11:51:26 AM
smallcleanrat, have you encountered the spoon analogy?  The original story is at https://butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/

The short version is everyone starts the day with some number of spoons that are then used to 'buy' daily actions.  People with long-term illnesses often start each day with fewer spoons and each activity is more expensive.

Thus, when someone runs out of spoons, they're done, even if it's only noon and more things should be done today.

People who seldom run out of spoons don't necessarily understand what it's like to run out of spoons most days.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on June 30, 2020, 02:10:04 PM
As someone with chronic health problems (including depression) and a spouse with chronic health problems, I like the spoon analogy. Our lives will never be what they were before. I desperately wish things could be different for both of us, but at a certain point we both came to realize that, within certain parameters, our lives could be pretty good--even if not what we expected.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on June 30, 2020, 07:21:38 PM
What do you say when people insist if you don't have enough spoons, you should just go get more?

Or who insist you miscounted your spoons and you actually have more than you say you do?

I have shown people this essay to hear something like "Well, yeah. Lupus is pretty serious; it's an actual disease. But everybody gets depressed or anxious now and then. You just have to push through it until things are better."
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on June 30, 2020, 08:05:23 PM
I hear your pain and frustration.

I have no answers for how to deal with people who deny reality other than making an effort to find better friends, colleagues, and chosen family.

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on June 30, 2020, 08:29:03 PM
Hi Smallcleanrat, Some people are hurtful (even if they think somehow that they are "helping" you). And that's really hard. I agree with Polly. There are better friends, colleagues, and chosen family out there. And right now, you're doing what you have to do by getting ready for the treatment program.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Cheerful on July 05, 2020, 03:23:36 PM
Shout out to smallcleanrat.  Wishing you all the best this week as you start the program.  We're here cheering you on!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on July 06, 2020, 10:09:41 AM
Quote from: Cheerful on July 05, 2020, 03:23:36 PM
Shout out to smallcleanrat.  Wishing you all the best this week as you start the program.  We're here cheering you on!

Thanks for thinking of me, Cheerful! Much appreciated. I have my intake session Wednesday.

I asked if they also have a psychiatrist I can talk to about meds and they assigned me to someone. Maybe they will be a better match for me than my current psychiatrist.

Been having a rough time this week obsessing over this feeling of being an "imposter" patient. I found several articles describing how people with "invisible illnesses" often feel this way when comparing themselves to people whose conditions are more disabling. Maybe I'm not sick, maybe asking for help/accommodation/moral support is inappropriate.

Been reading about people who exaggerate or even completely fabricate health issues for attention, sympathy, or relief from responsibilities. Been scrutinizing my history to see if I've been doing this at all. I don't want to be that kind of person. Am I just looking for an excuse to explain my difficulties managing my life? Because saying I have an illness would be saying that's not entirely my fault. When I feel urges to kill myself are these even serious? I haven't done it yet in all this time, and I hate myself for it; I've become reluctant to reach out when feeling suicidal because I never feel 100% certain that this is the time I'll actually do it. So I might be raising a "false alarm." Stats say most people with suicidal ideation do not actually make an attempt. And many attempts fail, raising questions of "serious" attempts versus cries for help.

Am I mistaking normal mood variations everyone has to deal with for something more extreme than the average? The chronic fatigue, the migraines, the unexplained loss of function in hands and feet...could I be doing it to myself without knowing it? Can it all be psychosomatic?

Because if that's what I'm doing, even without fully realizing or admitting it to myself, I really have just been wasting everyone's time and energy. Thinking this might be a possibility makes me loathe myself. I really need to figure this out.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Puget on July 06, 2020, 10:34:51 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on July 06, 2020, 10:09:41 AM
Quote from: Cheerful on July 05, 2020, 03:23:36 PM
Shout out to smallcleanrat.  Wishing you all the best this week as you start the program.  We're here cheering you on!

Thanks for thinking of me, Cheerful! Much appreciated. I have my intake session Wednesday.

I asked if they also have a psychiatrist I can talk to about meds and they assigned me to someone. Maybe they will be a better match for me than my current psychiatrist.

Been having a rough time this week obsessing over this feeling of being an "imposter" patient. I found several articles describing how people with "invisible illnesses" often feel this way when comparing themselves to people whose conditions are more disabling. Maybe I'm not sick, maybe asking for help/accommodation/moral support is inappropriate.

Been reading about people who exaggerate or even completely fabricate health issues for attention, sympathy, or relief from responsibilities. Been scrutinizing my history to see if I've been doing this at all. I don't want to be that kind of person. Am I just looking for an excuse to explain my difficulties managing my life? Because saying I have an illness would be saying that's not entirely my fault. When I feel urges to kill myself are these even serious? I haven't done it yet in all this time, and I hate myself for it; I've become reluctant to reach out when feeling suicidal because I never feel 100% certain that this is the time I'll actually do it. So I might be raising a "false alarm." Stats say most people with suicidal ideation do not actually make an attempt. And many attempts fail, raising questions of "serious" attempts versus cries for help.

Am I mistaking normal mood variations everyone has to deal with for something more extreme than the average? The chronic fatigue, the migraines, the unexplained loss of function in hands and feet...could I be doing it to myself without knowing it? Can it all be psychosomatic?

Because if that's what I'm doing, even without fully realizing or admitting it to myself, I really have just been wasting everyone's time and energy. Thinking this might be a possibility makes me loathe myself. I really need to figure this out.

Also thinking of you and hoping the treatment program is a good match!

I think on some level you know this, but it can be hard to see it when depression is distorting your thinking, so as someone who studies this stuff, let me tell you that what you have described in your posts here is in no way normal mood variations, and it is a real and serious illness for which you need and deserve both good healthcare and accommodations as you work to get well. It is also in no way your fault! It really makes me angry when people make a divide between "physical" and "mental" illnesses and act lake the later are not "real" -- its simply not true. You have a real illness for which you have sought appropriate treatment that you need and deserve.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: the_geneticist on July 06, 2020, 10:51:50 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 06, 2020, 10:34:51 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on July 06, 2020, 10:09:41 AM
Quote from: Cheerful on July 05, 2020, 03:23:36 PM
Shout out to smallcleanrat.  Wishing you all the best this week as you start the program.  We're here cheering you on!

Thanks for thinking of me, Cheerful! Much appreciated. I have my intake session Wednesday.

I asked if they also have a psychiatrist I can talk to about meds and they assigned me to someone. Maybe they will be a better match for me than my current psychiatrist.

Been having a rough time this week obsessing over this feeling of being an "imposter" patient. I found several articles describing how people with "invisible illnesses" often feel this way when comparing themselves to people whose conditions are more disabling. Maybe I'm not sick, maybe asking for help/accommodation/moral support is inappropriate.

Been reading about people who exaggerate or even completely fabricate health issues for attention, sympathy, or relief from responsibilities. Been scrutinizing my history to see if I've been doing this at all. I don't want to be that kind of person. Am I just looking for an excuse to explain my difficulties managing my life? Because saying I have an illness would be saying that's not entirely my fault. When I feel urges to kill myself are these even serious? I haven't done it yet in all this time, and I hate myself for it; I've become reluctant to reach out when feeling suicidal because I never feel 100% certain that this is the time I'll actually do it. So I might be raising a "false alarm." Stats say most people with suicidal ideation do not actually make an attempt. And many attempts fail, raising questions of "serious" attempts versus cries for help.

Am I mistaking normal mood variations everyone has to deal with for something more extreme than the average? The chronic fatigue, the migraines, the unexplained loss of function in hands and feet...could I be doing it to myself without knowing it? Can it all be psychosomatic?

Because if that's what I'm doing, even without fully realizing or admitting it to myself, I really have just been wasting everyone's time and energy. Thinking this might be a possibility makes me loathe myself. I really need to figure this out.

Also thinking of you and hoping the treatment program is a good match!

I think on some level you know this, but it can be hard to see it when depression is distorting your thinking, so as someone who studies this stuff, let me tell you that what you have described in your posts here is in no way normal mood variations, and it is a real and serious illness for which you need and deserve both good healthcare and accommodations as you work to get well. It is also in no way your fault! It really makes me angry when people make a divide between "physical" and "mental" illnesses and act lake the later are not "real" -- its simply not true. You have a real illness for which you have sought appropriate treatment that you need and deserve.

You are being courageous and brave. 
Remember, depressed & anxious you is not the real you.  I hope the program and treatment are the start of you become you again.
No, those are not "normal variants" of what everyone feels.  You are obviously in a crisis.  The physical symptoms can absolutely be from the anxiety & depression.  The super simplified explanation is that your body is stressed-out and your "fight, flight or hide" responses are working overtime.

You are not wasting anyone's time.  Your illness is 100% real.  You deserve to feel better.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on July 06, 2020, 11:34:40 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on July 06, 2020, 10:51:50 AM
You are not wasting anyone's time.  Your illness is 100% real.  You deserve to feel better.

Agreed.  Get the help you need, smallcleanrat. 
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: sprout on July 06, 2020, 12:02:49 PM
Smallcleanrat, you may find it helpful to read a bit about  High-Functioning Anxiety and Depression (https://www.bridgestorecovery.com/high-functioning-anxiety/high-functioning-anxiety-depression/).  I think it's easy for those around you to say "Well, scr seems fine, so it must not be that bad."  And even easy to discredit your own feelings with a statement like "If I were really depressed, I wouldn't be able to do all these things."  But being able to put up a good front and continue to do what needs doing doesn't make what's going on inside your head any less real or any easier to fight through.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on July 06, 2020, 03:29:00 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on July 06, 2020, 10:09:41 AM

Been having a rough time this week obsessing over this feeling of being an "imposter" patient. I found several articles describing how people with "invisible illnesses" often feel this way when comparing themselves to people whose conditions are more disabling. Maybe I'm not sick, maybe asking for help/accommodation/moral support is inappropriate.

Been reading about people who exaggerate or even completely fabricate health issues for attention, sympathy, or relief from responsibilities. Been scrutinizing my history to see if I've been doing this at all. I don't want to be that kind of person. Am I just looking for an excuse to explain my difficulties managing my life? Because saying I have an illness would be saying that's not entirely my fault. When I feel urges to kill myself are these even serious? I haven't done it yet in all this time, and I hate myself for it; I've become reluctant to reach out when feeling suicidal because I never feel 100% certain that this is the time I'll actually do it. So I might be raising a "false alarm." Stats say most people with suicidal ideation do not actually make an attempt. And many attempts fail, raising questions of "serious" attempts versus cries for help.

Am I mistaking normal mood variations everyone has to deal with for something more extreme than the average? The chronic fatigue, the migraines, the unexplained loss of function in hands and feet...could I be doing it to myself without knowing it? Can it all be psychosomatic?

Because if that's what I'm doing, even without fully realizing or admitting it to myself, I really have just been wasting everyone's time and energy. Thinking this might be a possibility makes me loathe myself. I really need to figure this out.

You sound like you're in a state somewhat like the one I was in several months ago.  Your mind is running out of your control.  You seem to have been unable to reestablish control on your own.  That's where I was in early March.

In my case it took a prescription of an antidepressant--which I was very resistant to taking until I decided I was desperate--to make getting the thoughts back under control possible.  Now I do have a good measure of control over my thoughts, and am glad that I took the steps I took. 

It looks as if you will also need some serious help to regain control.  I will be praying for you that the measures you are taking help you.  Once you start getting a handle on the way your mind works, you'll start finding the things that others tell you you need to be doing much more doable.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on July 11, 2020, 11:54:13 AM
Anyone know anything about prednisone and antidepressant induced bipolar symptoms? Mid summer fun! (NOT)
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on July 11, 2020, 07:32:21 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 11, 2020, 11:54:13 AM
Anyone know anything about prednisone and antidepressant induced bipolar symptoms? Mid summer fun! (NOT)

Not in detail, other than the fact that it can happen. But I can probably find info for you.

What were you hoping to know? Also, if you have a psychiatrist have you discussed this with them?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on July 11, 2020, 08:25:33 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on July 11, 2020, 07:32:21 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 11, 2020, 11:54:13 AM
Anyone know anything about prednisone and antidepressant induced bipolar symptoms? Mid summer fun! (NOT)

Not in detail, other than the fact that it can happen. But I can probably find info for you.

What were you hoping to know? Also, if you have a psychiatrist have you discussed this with them?

Well, thanks. I've already googled a bit. Planning to get in to a psychotherapist. I told my internal medicine MD primary yesterday I feel manic, talk and write manically online, etc. Music sounds more vivid. It's a little like my mind went to the gym and refuses to come home. Not extreme, but noticeable. And reading about Jane Pauley...she got bipolar late in life after combining antidepressant and steroids. And now the steroids are done, but she's got the ailment for good. It's like the susceptibility was triggered. I probably just need to wait out the taper and maybe get some lorazepam. Apparently prednisone cuts both ways. you can get a serious psychological reaction going on it or going off it. Maybe even both.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on July 11, 2020, 08:29:17 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 11, 2020, 08:25:33 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on July 11, 2020, 07:32:21 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 11, 2020, 11:54:13 AM
Anyone know anything about prednisone and antidepressant induced bipolar symptoms? Mid summer fun! (NOT)

Not in detail, other than the fact that it can happen. But I can probably find info for you.

What were you hoping to know? Also, if you have a psychiatrist have you discussed this with them?

Well, thanks. I've already googled a bit. Planning to get in to a psychotherapist. I told my GP yesterday I feel manic, talk and write manically online, etc. Music sounds more vivid. It's a little like my mind went to the gym and refuses to come home. Not extreme, but noticeable. And reading about Jane Pauley...she got bipolar late in life after combining antidepressant and steroids. And now the steroids are done, but she's got the ailment for good. It's like the susceptibility was triggered. I probably just need to wait out the taper and maybe get some lorazepam. Apparently prednisone cuts both ways. you can get a serious psychological reaction going on it or going off it. Maybe even both.

Is this new for you? Never experienced it before prednisone?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on July 11, 2020, 08:32:40 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on July 11, 2020, 08:29:17 PM

Is this new for you? Never experienced it before prednisone?

Don't think so. I've had prednisone numerous times but usually shorter course than this. tapering down to one week of 5 mg/day now. But I can still tell I'm on it. Usually by the time you're down to 5 mg/day, you feel like you've stopped.
I did have a bad reaction to paxil once. That ended up with the police.Then, effexor was bad too. but those are in the past. Now it's zoloft which I seem to tolerate OK.
Of course our new shut in life is probably doing weird things to people. I see so few people in person. And then it's like there's this guy out there on the internet, and he has this active life, and it's me, but then again it's just a bunch of pixels. I'm here in the bedroom.

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on July 13, 2020, 08:41:01 AM
One reason I was so resistant to taking an antidepressant was an experience I had with Paxil many years ago.  It made me never want to take anything like that again.  Fortunately they seem to have figured out how to fine-tune medications much better since then.

I'm now in the process of gradually reducing dosages in hopes of winding down this course of treatment.  The main side effect has been losing several more hours a week to sleep.  It's not too high a price to pay.

Mahagonny, what sorts of opportunities do you have to get out?  Are you able to do much walking, or maybe some bicycle riding?  Those activities have always done me a world of good, and they're still doable during a pandemic.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on July 13, 2020, 12:35:08 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 13, 2020, 08:41:01 AM
One reason I was so resistant to taking an antidepressant was an experience I had with Paxil many years ago.  It made me never want to take anything like that again.  Fortunately they seem to have figured out how to fine-tune medications much better since then.

I'm now in the process of gradually reducing dosages in hopes of winding down this course of treatment.  The main side effect has been losing several more hours a week to sleep.  It's not too high a price to pay.

Mahagonny, what sorts of opportunities do you have to get out?  Are you able to do much walking, or maybe some bicycle riding?  Those activities have always done me a world of good, and they're still doable during a pandemic.

I do have a treadmill and a bike and I will get back on the program shortly. Physically exerting activity for 20-30 minutes does help the mind settle down. Today I got the referral thing started so hopefully will see a therapist.
Paxil is associated with aggression and mania. Fortunately I got off paxil, but by then I already a had a criminal complaint and an attorney. (I didn't do anything that awful.)
The thing is, the effects of these strong antidepressants at the onset can be quite different from the real intended effect which consolidates in 4- 6 weeks. So some time later I got on zoloft and the doctor had me increase the dose at such a slow rate that I had to use liquid medicine and a dropper. It worked out. But what an awful taste! Eventually went to pills at 100mg.
Are you sure you need to get off your medications? Maybe you just feel stable because it's working.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on July 13, 2020, 01:13:33 PM
The main side effect I had with Paxil was needing to sleep too much.  Like with this other medicine, only worse.  I guess that's just what these things do to me.

I had gone the better part of a decade without any serious problems with depression.  Then last year I and my family had an extremely bad year.  My mother was seriously injured and took some months to recuperate.  Then I was seriously injured and was off from work for a month.  Then my father had triple bypass surgery for a set of blockages that according to his cardiologist by rights should have killed him (Evidently his body was just too strong to die until they had had a chance to find and fix the problem).  And there were other issues that I won't get into here that were severely psychologically troubling.

All of which is to say that the depression was brought on by circumstances that would have caused depression in just about anybody.  It knocked me so far into a hole that I couldn't climb back out.  Like I said above, I just couldn't regain control of my thoughts.  The idea behind this course of treatments was to help me regain control of my thoughts so that I could regain a right perspective on life.  It seems to have worked.  I was advised to give the course of treatment six months.  It's been about that long. 

So now I'm very gradually reducing dosage.  At this point it's down by close to half.  So far so good.  I'm carefully monitoring my thoughts.  If the draw-down starts to create problems, I'll go back to a higher dosage and consult with my doctor about where to go from there.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on July 14, 2020, 09:29:27 AM
Actually my call to the mental health department was a bit of a wakeup call. I had sent an email to my internal medicine guy who's known me for years, Saturday night. By Monday afternoon mental health had heard nothing. They explained 'your primary care doctor has to recommend an appointment for you with us. Whereupon, we will check you insurance plan to see if you are covered. Because you know we wouldn't want you to get stuck with a bill you weren't expecting.' She even mentioned something about a weekly department meeting where things get put in motion (or not). Then she said 'in the mean time keep in touch with your doctor to monitor your condition.' Which is pretty lame. We know he's not gonna sit down with me to talk about my life for 50 minutes. He doesn't do that. I'd be just a well off with Bob Newhart telling me to 'stop it.' The whole tone of the conversation was disengagement. Like she's not expecting it to work out for me. And I have an HMO that's considered pretty decent.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on July 14, 2020, 10:45:41 AM
I recalled one thread in particular on the old forum, but there are a number of references and experiences recounted about Paxil, Zoloft, etc. there.

This was the one I was thinking of:

   https://www.chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,77570.0.html

but there are a number of others, if you use the top "search" bar and ask for replies in order by most recent date.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on July 24, 2020, 05:24:54 AM
How's everyone doing this week?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on July 24, 2020, 07:18:29 AM
Stepping down the dosage a bit more this week, and doing well so far.  Apart from that ongoing need to sleep a lot.  I REALLY hope to get back to needing a normal amount of sleep in the next month or two.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on July 24, 2020, 02:06:44 PM
Glad that your are doing ok so far apl68.

I just finished my third week of my partial hospitalization program. It's pretty intense, and I haven't had a chance to digest even half of some of the things we've covered. 9am-4:30pm with not even a full hour break for lunch is kind of a difficult schedule to maintain when depressed and low-energy. As I break down the concepts and behavioral strategies I've been learning I will probably post more.

On another note, if anyone recalls my issues with my professor and the other TA in the class I was TA'ing for in the spring...there was an unexpected development. Got a call out of the blue from the professor asking if I would help him contact some of Other TA's students. Apparently Other TA had told her students they were all getting A's and were exempt from writing the final term paper. This was not at all the policy we had agreed on during our final meeting with the professor. She must have known that, because she told the professor that she had all her student's term papers and was finishing up with grading them. She told the prof she would be sending the graded papers to him within a few days (this was back at the end of Spring). Apparently she never did, and the prof has not been able to get any reply to email or text from her. He has been contacting all her students letting them know that turning in the term paper actually was required, letting them know their options for taking pass/fail or incomplete options, and talking to the registrar on the students' behalves. He called to ask whether I could help with some of this.

Huh...

I'm planning to do what I can to help. I feel bad that the students were lied to by their TA.

The phone call started with the prof immediately jumping into a description of the dilemma and then led into the request for help. Not even a "hi, how are you?" in the beginning, even though we haven't communicated in over a month and the last time we talked I was not doing well, to say the least. I'm not distraught over this, just mildly disappointed at the lack of pleasantries. Maybe this means I'm in a more stable place than I was back then. I'm still hurting for some interaction outside of treatment that leaves me feeling like I matter to someone else. Haven't been in contact with PI or lab-mates for weeks; they don't initiate communication and anytime I initiate I get minimal responses (or nothing).

I need some kind of action plan to build friendships. I seem to have lost all my old ones, or fooled myself into believing they were friendships in the first place.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on July 24, 2020, 03:32:02 PM
I could be wrong, but arent you sort of  'on the disabled list' at the moment trying to get better? 
It must suck to be in your professor's (former employer's) position. Arent you glad that You Dont Have to be in his shoes,?
I had said/warned earlier that your time is valuable and that if you are not being paid, you are not working!  (You are not in the charity giving business, from what I can tell).

Dont let your professor's problems distract you from addressing your health issues! 

Once these students write the papers they were told were not required, who is going to grade them?  I hope that it  is ANYONE BUT YOU! 

Remember, you ARE important.  Your TIME is VALUABLE!  At this point, your JOB is to GET BETTER.  There are no other Job Requirements for now! 

Good luck!  Thinking good thoughts for you!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on July 24, 2020, 04:09:12 PM
Quote from: clean on July 24, 2020, 03:32:02 PM
I had said/warned earlier that your time is valuable and that if you are not being paid, you are not working!  (You are not in the charity giving business, from what I can tell).

Dont let your professor's problems distract you from addressing your health issues! 

Once these students write the papers they were told were not required, who is going to grade them?  I hope that it  is ANYONE BUT YOU! 

Remember, you ARE important.  Your TIME is VALUABLE!  At this point, your JOB is to GET BETTER.  There are no other Job Requirements for now! 

Good luck!  Thinking good thoughts for you!

I agree with clean.

Are you getting paid?  Is this really part of your job or is this a favor?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 24, 2020, 04:50:39 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on July 24, 2020, 02:06:44 PM
I'm still hurting for some interaction outside of treatment that leaves me feeling like I matter to someone else. Haven't been in contact with PI or lab-mates for weeks; they don't initiate communication and anytime I initiate I get minimal responses (or nothing).

I need some kind of action plan to build friendships. I seem to have lost all my old ones, or fooled myself into believing they were friendships in the first place.

I understand.

I had a very lonely period in my life after I sobered up, thus losing my social-interaction mechanism, and then transferred from a pretentious well-polished SLAC to a gritty big football school where I lived off-campus and knew no one.  I had a terrible shock when I realized that I was thinking of the characters in the Friday night sitcoms as "friends." 

The normal suggestions people make (church, joining a "club," taking up a sport) were bad and intimidating.

What I did find was that people who were recovering were very open and willing to talk.  We shared an experience, were going through the same things, we were not judgmental with each other, and, since we were all working to get better, we were all generally good people inside.  Maybe look for a support group?

And if it helps, I think you have some friends here. 
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: dr_codex on July 25, 2020, 08:32:16 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on July 24, 2020, 02:06:44 PM
Huh...

I'm planning to do what I can to help. I feel bad that the students were lied to by their TA.

The phone call started with the prof immediately jumping into a description of the dilemma and then led into the request for help. Not even a "hi, how are you?" in the beginning, even though we haven't communicated in over a month and the last time we talked I was not doing well, to say the least. I'm not distraught over this, just mildly disappointed at the lack of pleasantries. Maybe this means I'm in a more stable place than I was back then. I'm still hurting for some interaction outside of treatment that leaves me feeling like I matter to someone else. Haven't been in contact with PI or lab-mates for weeks; they don't initiate communication and anytime I initiate I get minimal responses (or nothing).

I need some kind of action plan to build friendships. I seem to have lost all my old ones, or fooled myself into believing they were friendships in the first place.

Prof is asking for things you cannot supply, and should not encourage. If you get something like a "Hey, can you confirm that nobody agreed to Ghost TA's plan?", it would probably be a good idea to step up with a formal email to the Chair, Program Director, or whomever. The students need grades, and closure, and the department has a dumpster fire to put out, and you might be able to help them direct the hose. However, it's not your place to grade somebody else's papers; that is, among other things, what Prof was paid for, as well as ensuring that all TA's are keeping on task, etc.

Ghost TA does what lots of pleasant people do: soothing sounds, sympathetic ear, and a lot of "Hey, that sound tough, maybe I could help with that?" Meanwhile, they are either screaming inside, or in denial, or hoping that some kind of catastrophe will come that will allow the mountain of backloaded work never to see the light of day. Ghost TA needs professional help, in several senses. Otherwise, this will be ex-Ghost TA.

You will have noticed the pattern: Ghost TA ghosts everybody, not just you. When called on it early, the plea is overwork. (That's when more got dumped on you.) When called on it again, crickets. 

Stay with the program, SCR. I have no doubt that it's draining -- 50 minutes of therapy did me in each week -- but it might be an opening door.

Pulling for you.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: the_geneticist on July 27, 2020, 09:57:40 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on July 24, 2020, 02:06:44 PM
Glad that your are doing ok so far apl68.

I just finished my third week of my partial hospitalization program. It's pretty intense, and I haven't had a chance to digest even half of some of the things we've covered. 9am-4:30pm with not even a full hour break for lunch is kind of a difficult schedule to maintain when depressed and low-energy. As I break down the concepts and behavioral strategies I've been learning I will probably post more.

On another note, if anyone recalls my issues with my professor and the other TA in the class I was TA'ing for in the spring...there was an unexpected development. Got a call out of the blue from the professor asking if I would help him contact some of Other TA's students. Apparently Other TA had told her students they were all getting A's and were exempt from writing the final term paper. This was not at all the policy we had agreed on during our final meeting with the professor. She must have known that, because she told the professor that she had all her student's term papers and was finishing up with grading them. She told the prof she would be sending the graded papers to him within a few days (this was back at the end of Spring). Apparently she never did, and the prof has not been able to get any reply to email or text from her. He has been contacting all her students letting them know that turning in the term paper actually was required, letting them know their options for taking pass/fail or incomplete options, and talking to the registrar on the students' behalves. He called to ask whether I could help with some of this.

Huh...

I'm planning to do what I can to help. I feel bad that the students were lied to by their TA.

The phone call started with the prof immediately jumping into a description of the dilemma and then led into the request for help. Not even a "hi, how are you?" in the beginning, even though we haven't communicated in over a month and the last time we talked I was not doing well, to say the least. I'm not distraught over this, just mildly disappointed at the lack of pleasantries. Maybe this means I'm in a more stable place than I was back then. I'm still hurting for some interaction outside of treatment that leaves me feeling like I matter to someone else. Haven't been in contact with PI or lab-mates for weeks; they don't initiate communication and anytime I initiate I get minimal responses (or nothing).

I need some kind of action plan to build friendships. I seem to have lost all my old ones, or fooled myself into believing they were friendships in the first place.

Don't waste any brain space on this.  This is entirely up to the professor to fix.  Not your problem, don't feel guilty.  Do NOT let the professor dump this problem in your lab.  I'm sure he'd love to - you do the hard work, the grading issues disappear, he doesn't have to admit that Ghost TA made a mistake.  Time to make yourself unavailable.  Your TA contract ended with the end of the class.
Your only task is to do what you need to do to get back to being yourself.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on July 27, 2020, 07:43:31 PM
I haven't heard from the professor since the phone call, so I'm not really thinking too much about doing any extra work. He did emphasize it would be strictly volunteer.

I was reminded of the point sprout posted here about people greatly underestimating how much with high-functioning depression/anxiety are struggling and hurting. At the end of last term, when I was desperately trying to get some validation from either Ghost TA or the prof, the professor kept saying things like: you've been very reliable, you got all the grades in on time, you were there for your students....[implication: therefore, your issues can't be that bad]. Ghost TA was the one he said he was worried about since she had been incommunicado so often during term. He said he knew she had been "having a hard time." I don't wish her ill and I do hope she's ok, but at the same time I was screaming internally "I'm having a hard time too! TAing took everything out of me; it was often the only activity I could manage to do all day before my energy would crash or my mood would tank or self-harm urges would become overwhelming. I can't keep going on this way; it's just not sustainable. I. Am. Not. Ok."

I think I even said some variation of "I don't think I can keep this up anymore." Prof. said, "well, you'll just have to."

*sigh*

What I'm trying to shake off now is puzzling over the situation and worrying about Ghost TA. It's just such a bold lie to tell the prof she will pass on her students' papers to him before grades are due to the registrar, when she knows those papers don't even exist. It's not possible for a lie like that to hold up. In a situation like this, would a TA be penalized in any way? I suppose she could be blacklisted from further TA jobs, but that may not matter if she is now done with her program's teaching requirements.

Prof. had been asking her regularly throughout term whether she needed some of the TA work taken off her plate because he didn't want her to be overwhelmed. She could have just said she was swamped with other stuff and needed help with the TA work. She could even have said she had too much going on to do any of it, and I'm sure the prof. would have accepted it and split her work between me and him.

It's such a bridge-torching way to behave (since she just passed quals I'm thinking she has at least 1-2 years left as a student in this department) that it's hard to get my brain to stop worrying she was planning on not being around after spring...sick? dropping out? suicide? At this point I'd be content to know that she's alive and still in grad school.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on July 27, 2020, 09:21:54 PM
The only thing that comes to mind is "let it go".  You can not allow yourself to worry about the actions someone else has taken.  You have to take care of yourself and I gather that worry is an issue. 
Put it in a box for now and maybe put it on the calendar for say Halloween. On that day, you can reach out or ask others 'whatever happened to The Ghost' (if you hadnt already found out).
Until then, remember that you have only one job -- to get better.  Anything that distracts from that should be put away.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on July 28, 2020, 05:15:51 AM
Quote from: clean on July 27, 2020, 09:21:54 PM
The only thing that comes to mind is "let it go".  You can not allow yourself to worry about the actions someone else has taken.  You have to take care of yourself and I gather that worry is an issue. 
Put it in a box for now and maybe put it on the calendar for say Halloween. On that day, you can reach out or ask others 'whatever happened to The Ghost' (if you hadnt already found out).
Until then, remember that you have only one job -- to get better.  Anything that distracts from that should be put away.

This. 

Ghost TA isn't your problem. 

Picking up anything Ghost TA dropped is not your problem.

Your responsibility is your own health and anything for which you are being paid.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on August 12, 2020, 04:36:17 AM
How are folks doing this week?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: OneMoreYear on August 12, 2020, 04:08:55 PM
I hope everyone is doing well. I am more burnt out this week that I have been since graduate school.   I'm working flat out everyday, and wasn't monitoring how much of a toll it was taking until I hit a breaking point today. I've been craptastic at self-care (I teach it, so it's a "do as I say, not as I do" sort of thing). I need to figure out a better plan before I slide down. It helps to write it here. I think I'll go for a walk.

smallcleanrat, did you finish your PH program?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 02, 2020, 07:59:29 PM
There hasn't been any activity on this thread for awhile.

Does that mean most people are doing relatively ok?

I've transitioned from a partial hospital program to an intensive outpatient program (about 10 hours a week). I've also been trying to transition back into labwork, but it hasn't been a smooth process. I was doing better for a time, but had a pretty big setback when trying to get back to the rest of my life.

This is probably the best behavioral health program I've ever experienced. But I still struggle with the lack of energy and focus, intense low moods, and sense of detachment from everything. I still have frequent bouts of intense suicidal urges. My doc is thinking of either ketamine or ECT to try next.

I'm wondering if it's possible to be broken beyond repair.

I feel intense guilt every time I have to report that I'm not doing much better. It's like I'm not doing my part. It was like this during the TMS treatments as well.

But I swear I've been trying.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on October 02, 2020, 08:10:26 PM
By being under medical care, you are doing your part and that's what a good try will look like, smallcleanrat.

Hang in there!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on October 02, 2020, 08:14:00 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 02, 2020, 07:59:29 PM
There hasn't been any activity on this thread for awhile.

Does that mean most people are doing relatively ok?

I've transitioned from a partial hospital program to an intensive outpatient program (about 10 hours a week). I've also been trying to transition back into labwork, but it hasn't been a smooth process. I was doing better for a time, but had a pretty big setback when trying to get back to the rest of my life.

This is probably the best behavioral health program I've ever experienced. But I still struggle with the lack of energy and focus, intense low moods, and sense of detachment from everything. I still have frequent bouts of intense suicidal urges. My doc is thinking of either ketamine or ECT to try next.

I'm wondering if it's possible to be broken beyond repair.

I feel intense guilt every time I have to report that I'm not doing much better. It's like I'm not doing my part. It was like this during the TMS treatments as well.

But I swear I've been trying.

It might be possible to be broken beyond repair, but it's almost never truly the case. Hopelessness is what depression with anxiety is.
Time is your friend!

Just heard about this. Interesting....https://www.fisherwallace.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2uTLyLmX7AIVAY3ICh3OqAG8EAAYASAAEgKunfD_BwE
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Vkw10 on October 02, 2020, 08:24:07 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 02, 2020, 07:59:29 PM

I feel intense guilt every time I have to report that I'm not doing much better. It's like I'm not doing my part. It was like this during the TMS treatments as well.

But I swear I've been trying.

You are doing your part. You are working with doctor. You are being persistent, sticking with programs that you and your doctor have agreed to try. Finding things that help is hard, especially since most programs and medications don't  work immediately. Continuing to try is doing your part.

Every day you try is a small victory when dealing with a mental issue, smallcleanrat. Glad to hear you're still achieving those daily victories.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Volhiker78 on October 02, 2020, 08:35:51 PM
Over 10 years ago, I had a severe case of depression lasting nearly 2 months. When I didn't get better by either increasing dose or augmenting my anti-depressant,  my doctor and I decided to try ECT.  It was successful for me so I would encourage you to discuss this option with your doctor.  It did require about 6 rounds going approximately every other day.  Except feeling some fatigue after some sessions, I had no side effects. It is not painful. I had no memory loss. Two weeks after I started, I felt dramatically better.  I have not experienced any relapse since then although I remain on an antidepressant.  Don't give up. I wish you the best.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on October 03, 2020, 07:41:38 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 02, 2020, 07:59:29 PM
There hasn't been any activity on this thread for awhile.

Does that mean most people are doing relatively ok?

I've transitioned from a partial hospital program to an intensive outpatient program (about 10 hours a week). I've also been trying to transition back into labwork, but it hasn't been a smooth process. I was doing better for a time, but had a pretty big setback when trying to get back to the rest of my life.

This is probably the best behavioral health program I've ever experienced. But I still struggle with the lack of energy and focus, intense low moods, and sense of detachment from everything. I still have frequent bouts of intense suicidal urges. My doc is thinking of either ketamine or ECT to try next.

I'm wondering if it's possible to be broken beyond repair.

I feel intense guilt every time I have to report that I'm not doing much better. It's like I'm not doing my part. It was like this during the TMS treatments as well.

But I swear I've been trying.

Well...these things don't get fixed overnight.  I reported here sometime back that I was reducing dosages of antidepressants in hopes of getting away from them entirely.  I did quite well on low dosages.  But when I ceased them entirely a couple of weeks ago I had a sudden relapse.  Now I'm taking low dosages again, trying to find the best balance.  This has been deeply disappointing to me, because I don't want to have to take any kind of medication indefinitely.  I could also do better without the side effect of having to sleep several additional hours a week.  I've got better things to do with that time!

Some of us just have something broken in our heads.  Our part is to keep working on it.  Or working around it, if that's what it takes.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on October 03, 2020, 02:27:36 PM
I tried going down from 100 mg of sertraline daily to 75 mg. I thought, this is not a big reduction. I can deal with it. Didn't work out. Now I'm back to 100.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 03, 2020, 03:56:06 PM
No, it's true these things aren't fixed overnight.

But I never expected to be on this road for 15+ years.

I'm tired.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on October 03, 2020, 06:09:17 PM
I hear you, smallcleanrat, I hear you.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: OneMoreYear on October 03, 2020, 07:19:41 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 03, 2020, 03:56:06 PM
No, it's true these things aren't fixed overnight.

But I never expected to be on this road for 15+ years.

I'm tired.

smallcleanrat, I don't think any of us expect to be on the road this long. For some people, it can be a fairly brief episode that remits with appropriate treatment (or sometimes even without) and does not return. But for some of us, that is just not true. The fact that, for some of us, our mental health problems require chronic care (e.g., long term therapy, continued medication, several different options at different times in our lives) does not mean we are not trying or it is some moral failing on our part.
It does sound like you have not gotten very good care in the past, and you wrote that you have just finished the best behavioral health program you've ever attended, and you have a doctor who is exploring other options with you. These sound like good things.
I hope that you can be gentle with yourself.  Please keep checking-in.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 07, 2020, 12:59:32 PM
Anyone here have an opinion on using the possibility of suffering after death as a deterrant to suicide?

As in, 'death may not end your pain because you can't know you won't continue to suffer (or suffer worse) after you die.'
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: the_geneticist on October 07, 2020, 03:01:42 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 03, 2020, 03:56:06 PM
No, it's true these things aren't fixed overnight.

But I never expected to be on this road for 15+ years.

I'm tired.

I hear you.  Depression sucks and it's exhausting.
But you are doing so much better than you were a few months ago.
If your doctor is suggesting ketamine or ECT, I'd really encourage you to investigate those options and pick one.

Anecdotally, there is a growing number of folks that report dramatic improvement after surgical anesthesia.  Ketamine is a really common medication used in surgeries.  You don't by chance need any sort of elective surgery (appendix? hernia? tonsils? etc.)?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on October 07, 2020, 04:40:05 PM
QuoteAs in, 'death may not end your pain because you can't know you won't continue to suffer (or suffer worse) after you die.

I m not religious, so I m not an expert on the topic of Hell.  BUT many religions DO discuss an after life, and some not favorably!. 
Suicide is not well received in many religions, so to the extent that there IS a Hell, Suicide is NOT the preferred method of entry, especially  if someone is looking to escape suffering through eternity! 


An old economics sort of statement:
"Despite the high cost of living, it still remains popular."

 
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on October 07, 2020, 05:04:04 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 07, 2020, 12:59:32 PM
Anyone here have an opinion on using the possibility of suffering after death as a deterrant to suicide?

As in, 'death may not end your pain because you can't know you won't continue to suffer (or suffer worse) after you die.'

'I'm tired of living but scared of dying.' - Oscar Hammerstein speaking for the black man. We all suffer of course. I don't know why these videos comfort me, but they do. I guess it's just that we're not alone. Catharsis maybe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh9WayN7R-s
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=81Z-X6tfzZ79Bv2zt_gN&iflsig=AINFCbYAAAAAX35lA-NmKI3ULNy8qL2eSHn5k3pljVV3&q=old+man+river+judy+garland&oq=old+man+river+judy+garland&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIICC4QyQMQkwIyAggAMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjoOCC4QsQMQxwEQowIQkwI6CAguEMcBEKMCOggIABCxAxCDAToLCC4QsQMQxwEQowI6BQgAELEDOggILhCxAxCDAToCCC46BQguELEDOggILhDHARCvAToLCC4QsQMQxwEQrwE6CgguEMcBEKMCEAo6CwguELEDEMkDEJMCOgUIABDJA1DeGViuXWCCbGgAcAB4AIABvwGIAc8TkgEEMjAuNpgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjrpPbR2KPsAhVNT98KHf3ZDd8Q4dUDCAs&uact=5

And then there was Karen Carpenter, "Nothing really seems to fit. Feeling like I'd like to quit." Every generation tells it again.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Puget on October 07, 2020, 05:48:04 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 07, 2020, 03:01:42 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 03, 2020, 03:56:06 PM
No, it's true these things aren't fixed overnight.

But I never expected to be on this road for 15+ years.

I'm tired.

I hear you.  Depression sucks and it's exhausting.
But you are doing so much better than you were a few months ago.
If your doctor is suggesting ketamine or ECT, I'd really encourage you to investigate those options and pick one.

Anecdotally, there is a growing number of folks that report dramatic improvement after surgical anesthesia.  Ketamine is a really common medication used in surgeries.  You don't by chance need any sort of elective surgery (appendix? hernia? tonsils? etc.)?

I know you're joking geneticist, but just in case it's not clear-- the dosing and course of ketamine for depression is really different than for surgery (and I don't think it is used that much for anesthesia in adults actually, because there is a small but non-trivial risk of causing a psychotic break. It is used more in children and for animals). The doses used for depression are much lower and safer, and multiple doses are given over a period of weeks.

That said, I've kept up on this research a bit from a professional perspective, and ketamine (properly administered in a psychiatric clinic) is showing pretty good efficacy for treatment-resistant depression, and some evidence of immediate improvement in acutely suicidal patients. I definitely think it is something worth exploring with your psychiatrist SCR.

Here's a brand new review article if you're interested:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165032720327026?casa_token=QJIGi0RVe7oAAAAA:ETXlyn5MpnjTdGqwCv9FsV---QuMNSDoACaNn9PzcQp2JoWHeq67lLaaeDrHqkqeSDEeZz_KDP-Q
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: alto_stratus on October 07, 2020, 06:50:05 PM
I had several surgeries, and I felt fantastic after them. Refreshed in a way I haven't felt in decades, and cheerier than anyone waking up from disfiguring surgery should feel.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on October 07, 2020, 06:57:03 PM
QuoteI had several surgeries, and I felt fantastic after them. Refreshed in a way I haven't felt in decades, and cheerier than anyone waking up from disfiguring surgery should feel

My grandmother had bypass surgery and for a while all was great.  But about six months after, she was in a lot of pain from it.  (Im not sure if the pain meds kept her in line earlier, or the added oxygen in her system, or if the surgery itself took that long to really recover).

I will say that later, she would say that she regretted having the surgery at all!  (which angered my grandfather, because the surgery clearly extended her life)
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on October 08, 2020, 07:47:29 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 07, 2020, 12:59:32 PM
Anyone here have an opinion on using the possibility of suffering after death as a deterrant to suicide?

As in, 'death may not end your pain because you can't know you won't continue to suffer (or suffer worse) after you die.'

Yes.  I believe in an actual Heaven and Hell as taught in the New Testament.  I don't see where suicide itself is a "mortal sin."  But if one commits suicide, without ever having committed to following Jesus, then one forecloses once and for all on any hope of avoiding Hell.

The thing is, it's not just about avoiding Hell.  Choosing to follow Jesus, to believe in him, and follow his teachings, and join a community of followers, can bring great help here and now. 

1.  It gives us hope in something outside ourselves and bigger than ourselves.
2.  It provides a framework for meaning when undergoing suffering.  We may not know why, but we can have the hope that it will occur for a higher purpose.
3.  It gives an assurance that suffering now is temporary, but joy will God will be eternal.
4.  It brings us into a community of fellowship that can provide mutual hope and support.
5.  When we get past episodes of psychological stress, we can experience times of great joy here and now.

Several times in my life, I have experienced quite serious depression.  I don't think my symptoms were ever as severe as some of what you've described, but they were clinical.  I'm quite familiar with suicidal ideation.   My most recent experience of this was earlier this year, a little before the pandemic hit.  As described above on this thread, I've been taking an antidepressant, and have recently found that I'm not yet ready to stop doing so.  Although I've been very disappointed at this, I'm grateful for the help it gives in dealing with whatever underlying brain sickness I have.  Incidentally, acceptance of medical treatment of depression is widespread among Christian communities--my pastor was one of the main advocates who persuaded me to try it this time.

Although the medication can help with a sick brain, we're not just our brains any more than we're just our stomachs.  We need more.  Jesus can give us more.  I would strongly advise you to read the New Testament, starting with the Gospels.  Look for somebody near you who can speak to about it.  I'll continue praying for you in this.

Please!  It has helped me more than I can adequately express.  It can help you as well.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 08, 2020, 05:05:57 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 07, 2020, 12:59:32 PM
Anyone here have an opinion on using the possibility of suffering after death as a deterrant to suicide?

As in, 'death may not end your pain because you can't know you won't continue to suffer (or suffer worse) after you die.'

Would anyone's opinion change with context? For example, therapist-to-patient vs. friend-to-friend.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: OneMoreYear on October 08, 2020, 05:24:53 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 08, 2020, 05:05:57 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 07, 2020, 12:59:32 PM
Anyone here have an opinion on using the possibility of suffering after death as a deterrant to suicide?

As in, 'death may not end your pain because you can't know you won't continue to suffer (or suffer worse) after you die.'

Would anyone's opinion change with context? For example, therapist-to-patient vs. friend-to-friend.

In my opinion, I would not find it appropriate for a therapist to offer this as a reason for a client to not attempt suicide. However, if a client offered this as one of their reasons to live in a session with their therapist, that seems Ok (although I would hope the therapist would explore additional reasons to live with the client). 

Did someone offer this advice to you in a context you are uncomfortable with, smallcleanrat?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on October 08, 2020, 05:37:40 PM
It almost sounds cruel to say 'as bad as you feel now, there's something worse.'
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 09, 2020, 05:19:10 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on October 08, 2020, 05:37:40 PM
It almost sounds cruel to say 'as bad as you feel now, there's something worse.'

That pretty much sums up how I think of it. And everyone dies eventually, so it's not like deciding against suicide necessarily alters the final outcome. What's the difference? What are a handful of decades compared to a potential eternity?

Quote from: OneMoreYear on October 08, 2020, 05:24:53 PM

In my opinion, I would not find it appropriate for a therapist to offer this as a reason for a client to not attempt suicide. However, if a client offered this as one of their reasons to live in a session with their therapist, that seems Ok (although I would hope the therapist would explore additional reasons to live with the client). 

Did someone offer this advice to you in a context you are uncomfortable with, smallcleanrat?

A therapist in my current treatment program threw this at me as a "so there" tactic. As in, 'you can't prove it's not true, so this conversation is over.'

Yeah, I was...pretty upset over that. I agree with you. I think that it is inappropriate outside of certain circumstances (client holds this belief, treatment program is explicitly faith-based, etc...). I think the way she used the old "you can't prove it's not" argument to shut down further discussion is what angered me the most. She kept repeating that phrase every time I tried to say something.

I'm still kind of unsettled by it; it made the program feel like less of a safe space, and more like just another place where I'm supposed to keep my mouth shut.

Quote from: apl68 on October 08, 2020, 07:47:29 AM
Yes.  I believe in an actual Heaven and Hell as taught in the New Testament.  I don't see where suicide itself is a "mortal sin."  But if one commits suicide, without ever having committed to following Jesus, then one forecloses once and for all on any hope of avoiding Hell.

................................................

Although the medication can help with a sick brain, we're not just our brains any more than we're just our stomachs.  We need more.  Jesus can give us more.  I would strongly advise you to read the New Testament, starting with the Gospels.  Look for somebody near you who can speak to about it.  I'll continue praying for you in this.

Please!  It has helped me more than I can adequately express.  It can help you as well.

apl68, I know your intentions with this post were friendly, so I hope this response does not come across as hostile (it certainly isn't meant to be). It's just that several questions popped up in my mind as I read your message.

1) When it comes to your point about going to Hell if you don't follow Jesus, how would you go about making this point to someone with a different belief system? I'm honestly curious. Suppose someone has found deep meaning and joy in a different religious tradition. Couldn't this message be perceived as implying that they must discard the beliefs they have held dear for so long (just as fervently as you hold yours) in order to avoid being tormented for eternity? Wouldn't this be a distressing suggestion?

2) Why do you assume I haven't read the New Testament or that I haven't had anyone speak to me about it? Or maybe you didn't, but were just suggesting I do if I hadn't.

3) If you wanted to suggest to someone who was struggling that they start attending church or reading the Bible or similar, knowing they do not currently share your beliefs, how would you approach them? I could imagine something like this being taken positively or negatively depending on who is receiving the suggestion and how the suggestion is conveyed. Would you consider someone's lowest moments to be a better or worse time to discuss conversion with them as opposed to when they are doing ok mentally and emotionally?

How would you feel if in one of your lowest moments, someone told you to drop Christianity and immerse yourself in the foundational texts and tenets of their non-Christian religious community (because that is what they did years ago and their life has been so much better as a result)? How would you respond to them? (See this is where text can be tricky; I'm not asking in a sarcastic or rhetorical way, I'm honestly curious).
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on October 12, 2020, 09:41:36 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 09, 2020, 05:19:10 PM

apl68, I know your intentions with this post were friendly, so I hope this response does not come across as hostile (it certainly isn't meant to be). It's just that several questions popped up in my mind as I read your message.

1) When it comes to your point about going to Hell if you don't follow Jesus, how would you go about making this point to someone with a different belief system? I'm honestly curious. Suppose someone has found deep meaning and joy in a different religious tradition. Couldn't this message be perceived as implying that they must discard the beliefs they have held dear for so long (just as fervently as you hold yours) in order to avoid being tormented for eternity? Wouldn't this be a distressing suggestion?

2) Why do you assume I haven't read the New Testament or that I haven't had anyone speak to me about it? Or maybe you didn't, but were just suggesting I do if I hadn't.

3) If you wanted to suggest to someone who was struggling that they start attending church or reading the Bible or similar, knowing they do not currently share your beliefs, how would you approach them? I could imagine something like this being taken positively or negatively depending on who is receiving the suggestion and how the suggestion is conveyed. Would you consider someone's lowest moments to be a better or worse time to discuss conversion with them as opposed to when they are doing ok mentally and emotionally?

How would you feel if in one of your lowest moments, someone told you to drop Christianity and immerse yourself in the foundational texts and tenets of their non-Christian religious community (because that is what they did years ago and their life has been so much better as a result)? How would you respond to them? (See this is where text can be tricky; I'm not asking in a sarcastic or rhetorical way, I'm honestly curious).

I'm always glad to answer any questions, as best I can.

1.  Warning people about Hell is never easy.  It's a distressing subject.  Not one I prefer to spend a great deal of time talking about.  There are those who do spend too much talking about it.  But it is, and always has been, a part of the New Testament message.  Sometimes talking about it is unavoidable.  When I speak about my faith, I mostly accentuate the positive--what following Jesus has to offer.  Like I said, there's a whole lot more to following Jesus than simply trying to avoid going to Hell.  If somebody engages, though, then at some point the subject of sin, repentance, and potential eternal punishment is going to come up.  At that point, I have to be honest about what I believe. 

2.  I'm sorry if I implied that you had never read the New Testament.  I can't just assume that somebody has, since most people haven't.  Hence the advice to do so.  Even if one has already read the New Testament, it can be helpful to read it again.  It may afford new insights.  I've been reading it for most of my life, and am still finding new things in it.

3.  I've not often been invited to abandon what I believe for some other belief system.  When I have, I've just had to respectfully decline.  I feel thankful that I'm not in one of the places in the world where advice to abandon Christianity would be an order, not an invitation. 

As far as speaking about my faith to somebody who is struggling, let me put it this way.  When I see somebody struggling, I want to be of help.  Sometimes I'm in a position to offer practical or material help.  Sometimes I can offer sympathy or a listening ear.  And sometimes I can offer a potential solution that the struggling person may or may not have considered before. 

For problems such as yours, professional therapy and sometimes medication can be helpful.  So can what I suggested in my previous post.  It has helped me a great deal.  It has helped many people I know a great deal.  I offer what I offer as a testimonial in hopes of helping.  I could not in good conscience not say anything about it, when I see somebody hurting and hope that this could help.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on October 12, 2020, 10:01:14 AM
I do hope everyone on this thread finds what they need. I'll be taking another mental health journey starting this week myself--weekly tele-health calls to a counselor that I clicked with last year. And I'll be talking about anti-anxiety meds with my doctor.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 12, 2020, 11:31:39 PM
Thanks for your thoughtful reply apl68.

Quote from: apl68 on October 12, 2020, 09:41:36 AM
I'm always glad to answer any questions, as best I can.

1.  Warning people about Hell is never easy.  It's a distressing subject.  Not one I prefer to spend a great deal of time talking about.  There are those who do spend too much talking about it.  But it is, and always has been, a part of the New Testament message.  Sometimes talking about it is unavoidable.  When I speak about my faith, I mostly accentuate the positive--what following Jesus has to offer.  Like I said, there's a whole lot more to following Jesus than simply trying to avoid going to Hell.  If somebody engages, though, then at some point the subject of sin, repentance, and potential eternal punishment is going to come up.  At that point, I have to be honest about what I believe. 

The following is not meant as a personal attack. It's just the way I feel about these particular elements, and the reason I have difficulty knowing how to respond when these conversations come up in face-to-face conversations.

To me this sounds a bit too dismissive of the concept of a place where the majority of human beings on this planet will be tortured without reprieve forever and ever. Even if a person is emphasizing the aspects of their religion involving love, kindness, and community, I would not be able to forget that it comes with the addendum, "Or else!"

Some people might hear this as a message of fellowship and peace, but would you blame others if what they hear is a threat?

Telling me I can avoid the eternal punishment for wrongthink by following Jesus during the minuscule allotment of time I have for my earthly life is not a comfort to me. But it's been my experience that raising any sort of objection or even asking questions, no matter how gently, is often taken personally and interpreted as hostile or similar. So I usually just keep quiet. Which is why I really didn't want to encounter this in therapy.

I hope you can believe me when I say I am not saying this with intent to offend. I just don't see things in the same way you do (and I really tried for a significant part of my life).

Quote from: apl68 on October 12, 2020, 09:41:36 AM
2.  I'm sorry if I implied that you had never read the New Testament.  I can't just assume that somebody has, since most people haven't.  Hence the advice to do so.  Even if one has already read the New Testament, it can be helpful to read it again.  It may afford new insights.  I've been reading it for most of my life, and am still finding new things in it.

I was not offended by the implication (though I have been through multiple readings and still refer to it from time to time). I'm just puzzled when people seem to think I've never read the foundational texts or heard the concepts of Christianity given how influential and pervasive it is and has been in the Western world. Maybe I just don't get around enough, and these things are not as well-known as I thought they were. Most people haven't read it? Do you have an idea of the percentage of people, say in the U.S., U.K., or Canada who have?

I have met people who identify as Christian (many in my own family) who haven't read much of the Bible or learned much about its contents. Is this truly the norm? This really perplexes me. If you believe it to be the most important book in the history of the world, a direct message from God to the people he created, why are you not motivated to know what's in it? But this is another question that isn't polite to ask.

Quote from: apl68 on October 12, 2020, 09:41:36 AM
3.  I've not often been invited to abandon what I believe for some other belief system.  When I have, I've just had to respectfully decline.  I feel thankful that I'm not in one of the places in the world where advice to abandon Christianity would be an order, not an invitation.

I thought this was an interesting comment. Would you think someone is being unreasonable if they view conversion to a religion that has nonbelievers tortured for eternity as more of an order than an invitation?

Quote from: apl68 on October 12, 2020, 09:41:36 AM
3.  I've not often been invited to abandon what I believe for some other belief system.  When I have, I've just had to respectfully decline.  I feel thankful that I'm not in one of the places in the world where advice to abandon Christianity would be an order, not an invitation. 

As far as speaking about my faith to somebody who is struggling, let me put it this way.  When I see somebody struggling, I want to be of help.  Sometimes I'm in a position to offer practical or material help.  Sometimes I can offer sympathy or a listening ear.  And sometimes I can offer a potential solution that the struggling person may or may not have considered before. 

Respectfully declining is something I can manage when I am relatively well. Would you find this scenario more difficult to deal with during a time of extreme distress? I certainly do, because I'm so conditioned to be extremely careful of the other person's sensibilities, as religious beliefs are highly personal and an integral part of many people's identities. So now on top of barely managing to hold together, I have to expend considerable mental energy figuring out a way to decline without offending. And even if I do manage to decline, the other person will often insist I at least hear them out (no matter how many times I've heard what they have to say). And some people will also insist on follow-up: did you read that book/use that essential oil/try that crystal/talk to that pastor I told you about? I know the intentions are kind, so I don't want to hurt feelings by outright rejecting their suggestions, but it can be very exhausting and invalidating.

But for the most part, I try to focus on the good intentions behind the advice, even if I don't agree with all of it. I'm most appreciative of someone who can just email me a list of resources or recommend a book or say their piece and then leave it up to me if and when I decide to look into it.

Would you say there are certain contexts in which discussions like this are not appropriate? I'm wondering especially about situations with some kind of power/authority imbalance: teacher-to-student, supervisor-to-subordinate, doctor-to-patient. For instance, I once saw a GP when experiencing severe fatigue. He told me to try to "find religion" because "people with purpose in their lives have more energy." Um...I'm on an exam table wearing nothing but skivvies. Is this really the time and place for this conversation? Do you not have any medical advice?

Isn't there some kind of professional code of conduct regarding issues like this?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on October 13, 2020, 07:39:49 AM
If I were to see somebody driving down a section of road that I knew had a bridge out, I would see a need to warn that driver about the danger.  I'm not trying to threaten or coerce that person.  I'm trying to fulfill my responsibility to help.  I can't let the possibility that the hearer will hear find the message unwelcome or distressing, or perhaps even decline to believe it, keep me from saying something.  The risk of Hell is the ultimate "bridge out" down the road.

Not every time is an appropriate time to talk about Jesus and eternity.  I have to be careful in my own work as a (minor) city official not to bring my beliefs into things at an inappropriate time.  Nor can I let my own beliefs determine what materials we order for the library's collection.  Nor can I seek to impose my own beliefs upon my staff members (And believe me, there's one I'd love to be able to do that with--she's messing her life up in ways that she will surely have reason to regret!  I'd like so much to spare her that, but I can't live her life for her). 

When is the time appropriate for speaking about one's faith?  It's a judgment call.  It's something that takes prayer and careful consideration.  In the meantime, we can always be trying to live our lives in a way that follows Jesus and witnesses to his love.  Hence the old saying "Proclaim the Gospel every day.  Use words where necessary."

I know that it's awkward and distressing to hear talk about Hell and the need to follow a particular faith.  Most of us find it awkward and intimidating to approach others about it.  But if we see somebody headed in a direction in life that we believe will lead to disaster--and to missing out on something wonderful that can help so much in dealing with life's problems and pains--we can't in good conscience not make the effort to say something about it.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on October 13, 2020, 07:56:23 AM
My protestant church barely mentioned hell, but when a catholic friend told me a bout it, I was shocked and couldn't believe it. I asked my parents and the minister about it and the answers I got were like 'yeah...well, it's there, but we don't go around hitting ourselves over the head with it. Don't worry about it too much.' I came to the conclusion they hadn't figured out the they think of it.
I think it's wrong for a therapist to talk this way with you because faith is meaningful because/when it is chosen. Your therapist should not be choosing your faith for you. Maybe they need validation for themselves. The therapist/patient relationship is not supposed to be about the therapist's needs. That's why they deserve to be paid.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 13, 2020, 08:54:47 AM
Quote from: apl68 on October 13, 2020, 07:39:49 AM
If I were to see somebody driving down a section of road that I knew had a bridge out, I would see a need to warn that driver about the danger.  I'm not trying to threaten or coerce that person.  I'm trying to fulfill my responsibility to help.  I can't let the possibility that the hearer will hear find the message unwelcome or distressing, or perhaps even decline to believe it, keep me from saying something.  The risk of Hell is the ultimate "bridge out" down the road.

Not every time is an appropriate time to talk about Jesus and eternity.  I have to be careful in my own work as a (minor) city official not to bring my beliefs into things at an inappropriate time.  Nor can I let my own beliefs determine what materials we order for the library's collection.  Nor can I seek to impose my own beliefs upon my staff members (And believe me, there's one I'd love to be able to do that with--she's messing her life up in ways that she will surely have reason to regret!  I'd like so much to spare her that, but I can't live her life for her). 

When is the time appropriate for speaking about one's faith?  It's a judgment call.  It's something that takes prayer and careful consideration.  In the meantime, we can always be trying to live our lives in a way that follows Jesus and witnesses to his love.  Hence the old saying "Proclaim the Gospel every day.  Use words where necessary."

I know that it's awkward and distressing to hear talk about Hell and the need to follow a particular faith.  Most of us find it awkward and intimidating to approach others about it.  But if we see somebody headed in a direction in life that we believe will lead to disaster--and to missing out on something wonderful that can help so much in dealing with life's problems and pains--we can't in good conscience not make the effort to say something about it.

Thanks for continuing to respond, apl68!

I hope I did not cause offense. I just wanted to be honest about how I feel about things like this. I really appreciate you sharing your perspective. Many people in my life would have shut down the conversation by now, leaving me in the dark as to their point of view.

I went to parochial school for elementary, and one of the pastors was adamant that Christians should never be friends with non-Christians because of the danger of being corrupted ("I wouldn't even give a non-believer the time of day"). I remember some of the other kids asking how it was possible to share the Gospel with nonbelievers (something we were taught was our moral duty) if you refuse to speak to them. He pretended he didn't hear the question. This was the same pastor who told us, "Hell is full of good people" to drive home the point that being a good person doesn't save you from damnation. It doesn't matter how kind, compassionate, and moral you are; if you are a kind, compassionate and moral Jew, Hindu, or Muslim then you burn. And you will have deserved it.

I understand you aren't *trying* to threaten or coerce someone by sharing your beliefs and that your intent is to issue a warning out of concern for that person. But, to me, the threat and coercion seem baked into the system. I know the person sharing their view with me didn't make the rules about Hell, but they do seem to be ok with these rules. That's what makes me feel uncomfortable sometimes; knowing the person I am talking to thinks I am doomed if I don't convert, and that it would be sad but not undeserved. And when someone is already in a very vulnerable state, this implication might do more harm than good.

I recall a pastor commenting on parents who wish to wait until a child is older before teaching them about religion (under the assumption that preschool and kindergarten-aged children are too young to really understand). He said it was better to let your kid play in the streets and be killed by a car rather than to let them make up their own mind about religion or to wait until they were older before teaching them Christianity, because Hell is so much worse than being hit by a car. His opinion was that allowing a child to consider the claims and traditions of different religions and come to their own conclusions was tantamount to child abuse.

I know there is an extremely broad range of views within Christianity and among individual Christians regarding tolerance for other belief systems or questioning of religious teachings. I'm just sharing some of the beliefs I was raised with.

I also don't think "decline" is the right word with regards to belief. When I mentioned "declining" earlier, I meant declining *actions* like going to a faith-healing seminar or something. Contrary to the claims I was raised with, I don't think I *choose* whether or not to believe something. It either seems credible to me or it doesn't; it makes sense to me or it doesn't. And during many long years of hearing that unbelievers are absolute scum who deserve to be tormented forever (because the only reason someone can hear the Gospel and not believe is if they *choose* to disobey God and continue a life of sin), lack of belief was certainly not the result of lack of sincere effort. But there are people who are convinced this is impossible ("If you don't believe, it's because you didn't *sincerely* seek God" or "The truth of Christianity is so obvious, the only reason people are not Christian is because they don't want to repent of their wickedness").

I do get angry when people say things like that, because the implication is either I'm a liar or I don't even know my own thoughts and feelings; but nothing I can say ever seems to shake their confidence in such assertions. It's why sometimes these conversations can be extremely invalidating and leave me feeling worse than before.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on October 14, 2020, 07:07:13 AM
It sounds like you've been exposed to some people with sadly distorted ideas about the Gospel and about how to be a Christian witness, smallcleanrat.  I knew that this was a real possibility, because unfortunately such ideas are widespread.  This is part of the reason why I suggested (and still would suggest) reading the New Testament for yourself--to get a fresh reading of what the New Testament actually says, unfiltered through others' preconceptions. 

The fundamental teaching of the New Testament as a whole is that all human beings exist in a state of alienation from God.  This alienation leads to evil and suffering in this life, and eternal destruction in the next.  The purpose of Jesus is to provide a way to be reconciled with God.  We can recognize and admit our alienation from God, ask Jesus to help us come back to God, and commit to living life the way Jesus taught. 

The New Testament doesn't teach that unbelievers are "scum."  It teaches that God loves unbelievers enough to sacrifice Jesus on our behalf.  You've probably seen John 3:16:  "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but should have everlasting life."

When Christians tell others about this, we're not trying to make them feel invalidated.  But our understanding is that everybody--ourselves included--has a fundamental, existential problem in our alienation from God.  The only way to go about getting a problem solved is to recognize it.  We're trying to help others understand where the problem lies. 

It's clear from things that you've said before that you recognize that you have serious problems in your life.  That puts you one up on those--a certain President comes to mind--who try to imagine that they're perfectly okay just the way they are.  In your case professional counseling and perhaps medication could help you deal with some of the trouble.  I'm only asking you to consider and investigate something else that could ultimately be of even greater help.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 14, 2020, 06:45:51 PM
Quote from: apl68 on October 14, 2020, 07:07:13 AM
It sounds like you've been exposed to some people with sadly distorted ideas about the Gospel and about how to be a Christian witness, smallcleanrat.  I knew that this was a real possibility, because unfortunately such ideas are widespread.  This is part of the reason why I suggested (and still would suggest) reading the New Testament for yourself--to get a fresh reading of what the New Testament actually says, unfiltered through others' preconceptions. 

There are so many ideas about so many aspects of Christian theology and interpretation of the Bible. And so many of their proponents confidently assert "Those other people got it wrong."

I don't even see how it's possible to read these texts "unfiltered." For one thing, I can't read any of the languages used in the original writings, so I have to rely on translations, specifically English language (and there are *many* versions of those currently being published). And what about all the decisions about which writings are canon and which apocryphal? And do you suppose there was no filtering across centuries of transcriptions of transcriptions of transcriptions?

And everyone holds preconceptions acquired through the culture and time period, in addition to education and personal experiences.
When I first tried reading a Bible (graduating from children's Bibles), I realized I needed much more context to hope to get through it. Without some background reading about the ancient world and footnotes or dictionaries or encyclopedias to explain some of the culture of those ancient peoples, most of the Bible would have been incomprehensible. And I don't believe for a second even with reading a few histories and commentaries that I understood everything.

So what would be considered a "fresh reading?" Also, I mentioned above I have been through *multiple* readings. And I'd reckon the pastors you say have distorted ideas also went through multiple readings (not that I'm defending them). And I seem to recall an argument between two classmates, each holding a different guide to reading the Bible. They disagreed on the interpretation of some passage, each defending the position of their chosen author.

"Do you think you know better than the writer of this book? This man's been a pastor for decades. He's studied the Bible his whole life!"
Retort: "Well, so has *this* writer!"

Quote from: apl68 on October 14, 2020, 07:07:13 AM
The fundamental teaching of the New Testament as a whole is that all human beings exist in a state of alienation from God.  This alienation leads to evil and suffering in this life, and eternal destruction in the next.  The purpose of Jesus is to provide a way to be reconciled with God.  We can recognize and admit our alienation from God, ask Jesus to help us come back to God, and commit to living life the way Jesus taught. 

As I indicated above, I do not find this a core tenet that would lead me to peace and joy. There are various ideas regarding what Hell is like and who is sent there, but I'll focus on the one you have stated that requires belief. Nothing you have said here contradicts (or even comments on) the pastor who said "Hell is full of good people," unless you think non-Christians are all bad people (and I don't think you do). Wouldn't a person's joy in heaven be marred even the tiniest bit by the knowledge that billions of human souls are in eternal agony? Will the knowledge of this be wiped to eliminate any negative feelings about this? If a believer loves a non-believer in life, does the love vanish upon reaching Heaven? Otherwise, how joyful could the believer feel that a loved one has been condemned?

You didn't address the point I made about feeling uncomfortable with the notion that the person I am talking to believes I *deserve* Hell unless I convert. Telling me this is true of *everyone* and not a comment on me personally doesn't help much. There is still the idea that we are born sinful, corrupted and unworthy, but God was benevolent enough to send Jesus to be slaughtered so we could be washed clean with his blood. Nevermind why God demands innocent bloodshed in the first place, that's just the price He set for sin-cleansing.

The unbeliever is one who refuses the offer to be washed free of sin, so does it not stand to reason that they continue to be sinful, corrupted, and unworthy? And there are numerous verses throughout the Bible warning against associating with the non-believer, lumping them in with criminals. I suppose it's a matter of interpretation whether you take this to mean unbelievers are "scum." Anyway, if the unbeliever *isn't* scum, why does their fate have to be eternal torture? Indeed, why must they face eternal torture even if they are scum?

If the rule is there must be no unbelievers in the kingdom of God, why not end the unbeliever's existence at death? Why must they suffer forever? Punishment? Punishment for what? For being mistaken? For growing up in a different religious culture?

If you characterize God as loving and just, where is the justice in that? Or the love?

What happened to the millions of Jews who were murdered or died in concentration camps during the Holocaust? Were they simply sent from one hell to another? I can't feel ok with that. I don't ever *want* to get to a point where I feel ok with that.

Quote from: apl68 on October 14, 2020, 07:07:13 AM
When Christians tell others about this, we're not trying to make them feel invalidated.  But our understanding is that everybody--ourselves included--has a fundamental, existential problem in our alienation from God.  The only way to go about getting a problem solved is to recognize it.  We're trying to help others understand where the problem lies.

I understand you aren't *trying* to invalidate, just as you weren't *trying* to threaten. You don't need to have intent in order to do harm. My point was the message itself contains the threat. And an unshakeable confidence in the Bible's explanations of human nature and behavior can make someone feel at ease adamantly denying someone else's experience (e.g. saying people *choose* to be gay).

Quote from: apl68 on October 14, 2020, 07:07:13 AM
I'm only asking you to consider and investigate something else that could ultimately be of even greater help.

Why do you keep saying this as if I *haven't* considered and investigated? Do you not believe me? Do you think I must have done it wrong? What is it you think will happen if I go through the process again? If I do, and I still don't convert, would you think I deserve to burn?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Parasaurolophus on October 14, 2020, 06:57:37 PM
I suggest we return to the topic of mental health. We can have a more in-depth theological discussion in a separate thread.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 14, 2020, 07:05:50 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on October 14, 2020, 06:57:37 PM
I suggest we return to the topic of mental health. We can have a more in-depth theological discussion in a separate thread.

I see where you're coming from, but I think it is related.

The original questions had to do with trying to scare someone into holding back from suicide with talk of suffering in the afterlife.

It lead to further discussion of whether someone's most vulnerable time is an appropriate time to talk to them about converting to a different religion. It happens a lot.

People can be well-meaning and not realize how some of the things they are saying may come across.

I was trying to convey why someone might be resistant

But I'll stop making long posts about this.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on October 15, 2020, 08:41:23 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 14, 2020, 07:05:50 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on October 14, 2020, 06:57:37 PM
I suggest we return to the topic of mental health. We can have a more in-depth theological discussion in a separate thread.

I see where you're coming from, but I think it is related.

The original questions had to do with trying to scare someone into holding back from suicide with talk of suffering in the afterlife.

It lead to further discussion of whether someone's most vulnerable time is an appropriate time to talk to them about converting to a different religion. It happens a lot.

People can be well-meaning and not realize how some of the things they are saying may come across.

I was trying to convey why someone might be resistant

But I'll stop making long posts about this.

Mutual misunderstanding is a very common, human thing.  That's why it's good to have conversations to talk these things out and try to clarify the misunderstandings.  It's one reason why I'm glad to take part in the conversations.  Doing so through this awkward online message board medium does make it awfully awkward, though.

It is true that the New Testament message contains a great deal that is unsettling.  Jesus said that all human beings stand in need of salvation, regardless of how good they think they are (His greatest detractors were the super-orthodox believers of his day who thought that they had earned their own salvation), that their beliefs in other things and in their own efforts can't save them, and that he himself was the way to life.  It's an inherently offensive message.  Those who were offended by it put Jesus to death for it.  Many of his followers experienced the same thing.  Some still do in some parts of the world to this day.

I could try sugar coating it, but I just don't believe that uncongenial truths about God can be ignored or wished away, any more than they can about race relations, or the pandemic, or global climate change.  There are realities that have to be faced if they are to be dealt with.

I wish I could make the message less hard to deal with.  Just as I wish I could reassure people that we don't have race problems and injustices in our country, or a pandemic we've failed to nip in the bud, or a human-caused global climate catastrophe.  None of these situations is hopeless IF human beings are prepared to face up to them.  But we have to face up to them.  Not doing so, for whatever reason, is not constructive. 

I have a lot more that I could say to address the other issues that you have raised, smallcleanrat.  But Parasaurolophus has a point about this developing into a thread drift. 

You have indicated that you have studied the New Testament and are not prepared to accept what it says.  I can't change your mind for you.  Perhaps the time will come when you are ready to do so.  In the meantime, I just want to say that God loves you, and wishes for you to be reconciled to him through Jesus.  I also love you, and wish you all the best.  Please take care of yourself.  You have a lot of people here who shown that they care about you.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: the_geneticist on October 15, 2020, 09:48:06 AM
Quote from: little bongo on October 12, 2020, 10:01:14 AM
I do hope everyone on this thread finds what they need. I'll be taking another mental health journey starting this week myself--weekly tele-health calls to a counselor that I clicked with last year. And I'll be talking about anti-anxiety meds with my doctor.

Welcome little bongo.  I'm sorry that you're having a rough time right now.  Finding a good counselor is a great step.  I know I've had a LOT of trouble finding one that I clicked with too.  I hope that your doctor gives you some good options to pick from. 
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 15, 2020, 11:43:10 AM
Quote from: apl68 on October 15, 2020, 08:41:23 AM
Mutual misunderstanding is a very common, human thing.  That's why it's good to have conversations to talk these things out and try to clarify the misunderstandings.  It's one reason why I'm glad to take part in the conversations.  Doing so through this awkward online message board medium does make it awfully awkward, though.
.......................
I could try sugar coating it, but I just don't believe that uncongenial truths about God can be ignored or wished away, any more than they can about race relations, or the pandemic, or global climate change.  There are realities that have to be faced if they are to be dealt with.

I wish I could make the message less hard to deal with.  Just as I wish I could reassure people that we don't have race problems and injustices in our country, or a pandemic we've failed to nip in the bud, or a human-caused global climate catastrophe.  None of these situations is hopeless IF human beings are prepared to face up to them.  But we have to face up to them.  Not doing so, for whatever reason, is not constructive. 

I have a lot more that I could say to address the other issues that you have raised, smallcleanrat.  But Parasaurolophus has a point about this developing into a thread drift. 

You have indicated that you have studied the New Testament and are not prepared to accept what it says.  I can't change your mind for you.  Perhaps the time will come when you are ready to do so.  In the meantime, I just want to say that God loves you, and wishes for you to be reconciled to him through Jesus.  I also love you, and wish you all the best.  Please take care of yourself.  You have a lot of people here who shown that they care about you.

Thanks for your response, apl68. If you want to share further thoughts on this through PM, I'm happy to read them.

I'm used to being shut down or ignored in these type of conversations, so I suppose I had a lot of thoughts built up. I wasn't so much concerned about the details of theology, as I had no expectation either of us would change our minds on this through a few forum posts.

I really wanted to get across how two people might feel very differently about the same concept. I wasn't sure if you were acknowledging my main point that, regardless of intention, your message may come across as telling someone if they do not abandon some of their most fundamental beliefs and core values, then they deserve whatever nasty consequences they get. If someone is already struggling with self-esteem and sense of identity, this can be extremely hurtful.

I do want to get out a few thoughts on the topic of invalidation (which *is* mental health-related) from people who mean well. It's something I've even been coming up against a lot, even in therapy. There are elements of our exchange on this thread that are illustrative.

1) Discounting someone else's experiences if they came to opinions different from yours. I get where this comes from; if something helped you tremendously and you think it will help someone else, you really want to urge them to give it a good try. I've been dealing with this from family a lot; suggestions ranging from acupuncture to crystal healing. It's the refusal to accept a response like, "Thanks, but I've looked into it. I've tried it. It's not for me." They assume I didn't *really* try or whatever I tried before was a substandard representation. Nothing I say seems to matter.

It's why I got kind of frustrated when you kept suggesting I read the New Testament after I already said I had. How many iterations must I go through before someone accepts I've had enough experience to make an informed choice for myself?

2) Saying you did not *intend* to [....] without acknowledging the other person might have had a valid reason for feeling the way they do. The implication seems to be, if you did not *intend* to hurt someone, then they should not feel hurt; essentially saying "you took it the wrong way."

I was getting this response from people who had seemed indifferent to my safety when I was in crisis and needed support. "There was no ill intent." So? Whatever their *intent* was, it was their actions (or lack thereof) that had hurt me.

3) Different base assumptions. This is an issue I have really had trouble with in therapy. The treatment programs I have been in want everyone to start with assumptions like, "It is always better to choose to live." I really don't feel confident in accepting that "always". Other assumptions I'm supposed to adopt (depends on the therapist): "Everything happens for a reason." or "Every person has intrinsic value." (I'm not really sure what this even means).

Problem with assumptions is that there is no expectation that they need to be explained. Which leaves me stuck. One case manager said, "I'm not going to get into a philosophical discussion with you."

But these are questions about what constitutes a life worth living? What constitutes a life well-lived? What value are we talking about when we say "intrinsic human value." What are these if not philosophical questions?

I'm not trying to be difficult by being contrary; I just don't know how to buy into an assumption that does not currently ring true to me if no one's going to discuss how to arrive at such beliefs.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: the_geneticist on October 15, 2020, 12:08:37 PM
Hey smallcleanrat,
Have you read this cartoon/blog by Allie Brosh?  It's not advice or a cure, but it's the best depiction I've seen of what I felt like with depression.  I remember reading and going "OMG, this is what it's like".  I used it to explain to well-meaning, but clueless therapists/doctors what my world was like.  No idea if it's the same for you, but I figured I'd post it for folks.

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/depression-part-two.html (http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/depression-part-two.html)
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on October 15, 2020, 12:26:09 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 15, 2020, 12:08:37 PM
Hey smallcleanrat,
Have you read this cartoon/blog by Allie Brosh?  It's not advice or a cure, but it's the best depiction I've seen of what I felt like with depression.  I remember reading and going "OMG, this is what it's like".  I used it to explain to well-meaning, but clueless therapists/doctors what my world was like.  No idea if it's the same for you, but I figured I'd post it for folks.

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/depression-part-two.html (http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/depression-part-two.html)

Most of it rings pretty true, all right.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 15, 2020, 09:21:33 PM
Thanks, the_geneticist. I was familiar with the comic but it had been a while since last reading so it was good to see it again. I'd put this up there with the Spoon Metaphor essay. I've been thinking of trying to learn some basic drawing/design skills so I can use visuals when sorting my thoughts.

This is what makes a lot of self-help guides frustrating. It's not that the advice is terrible per se. it's just alienating when people don't realize that something that might help a non-depressed or mildly depressed person cope may be completely ineffective with severe depression.

Someone might say, "Take an afternoon to do something you enjoy." not comprehending what life is like with anhedonia. They mistake cause and effect. "Well, you spend so much time lying in bed. Of course you'll feel depressed if you hardly do anything."

Speaking of invalidation, an old friend and I have been keeping in touch through text. He also struggles with suicidality and we have been leaning on each other when we need an outlet. Yesterday, as he was sharing some of his latest depressive thoughts he told me he sometimes gets angry when I mention my own suicidal thoughts. His reason is that he thinks I have a good life and have been able to progress in ways he has not ("You're in grad school; I never even finished college.") He told me about financial troubles, chronic underemployment, relationship woes, lack of friends and no future prospects. "I have real reasons to want to kill myself. I don't know why you feel suicidal. You have more than I ever will."

He's been messaging again today,  wanting to share more about what's been going wrong in his life lately. I haven't responded yet because I'm still pretty stung by what he said. I don't feel like i can confide in him anymore knowing he might secretly be feeling contempt while feigning empathy. I haven't decided how to proceed from here.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Hegemony on October 16, 2020, 03:37:33 AM
I think the fallacy of that kind of thinking is "If you'd only just make the attempt to appreciate your good fortune, you wouldn't be depressed." I mean, it's true that outlook is a factor; I'm sure we can all think of grumpy people who manage to find something wrong with even the most idyllic of scenarios. But changing one's outlook is not like flipping a switch, and the idea that outlook is the only factor or the key factor is that same old attitude of "Just pull yourself up by your bootstraps!  It's your own fault if you don't!"  In a way, depression could be defined as what you have when attempting to pull yourself up by your bootstraps does not work. I'm also a fan of Johann Hari's book Lost Connections: Uncovering the Real Causes of Depression, which, in my view, makes a persuasive case that depression is not failure of self-will, and not weird incomprehensible brain chemistry, but a natural reaction to very real conditions, conditions which cannot be changed merely by plastering on a smile and changing one's mindset. That's true even if one has a PhD and a job and friends and all that. In fact, it's easy to get stuck in self-blame: "I have all these riches and still I don't feel okay!  Something must be really wrong with me." And in fact (in my view) something is wrong, but it's not your, or anyone's fault, and it's not something wrong with you. (He does go on to explain what he thinks is behind it all, and it's thought-provoking and does allow for changing one's conditions, but it takes more than a paragraph to explain.)

But how distressing to find out that your friend has these thoughts. I hope you can find out a little bit more, that will let you know if he will still make a reliable confidante, but without adding to your unhappiness.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on October 16, 2020, 07:19:16 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 15, 2020, 09:48:06 AM
Quote from: little bongo on October 12, 2020, 10:01:14 AM
I do hope everyone on this thread finds what they need. I'll be taking another mental health journey starting this week myself--weekly tele-health calls to a counselor that I clicked with last year. And I'll be talking about anti-anxiety meds with my doctor.

Welcome little bongo.  I'm sorry that you're having a rough time right now.  Finding a good counselor is a great step.  I know I've had a LOT of trouble finding one that I clicked with too.  I hope that your doctor gives you some good options to pick from.

Thanks, the_geneticist. One of our work insurance plans allows us four free sessions with a counselor of some kind, and then it wasn't financially feasible for a while for me to see this counselor. As of now, we're taking advantage of "tele-health," where our insurance picks up the copay in order to encourage using the phone or a computer set-up. So for the time being, at least, this seems like a good plan. I'll be seeing my G.P. a week from today to see about anti-depressants and how that might work out (this would be my first time trying meds as part of the solution).

I've told my long and Incredibly Fascinating story on the old fora in a thread I started about our foster-to-adopt family--I'll probably tell it again one of these days. But the short version of why there's a hard time right now... I guess it would be, in no particular order: the kids, the marriage, possible retrenchment or furlough at work, and my not-very-manageable responses to all of that (not to mention that hard time I'm consequently giving my family). It's not the best.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 17, 2020, 10:10:03 AM
Quote from: little bongo on October 16, 2020, 07:19:16 AM
I've told my long and Incredibly Fascinating story on the old fora in a thread I started about our foster-to-adopt family--I'll probably tell it again one of these days. But the short version of why there's a hard time right now... I guess it would be, in no particular order: the kids, the marriage, possible retrenchment or furlough at work, and my not-very-manageable responses to all of that (not to mention that hard time I'm consequently giving my family). It's not the best.

Hello, little bongo. Sorry to hear you are dealing with such a difficult situation. Hope you find good support from your treatment providers.

Quote from: Hegemony on October 16, 2020, 03:37:33 AM
But how distressing to find out that your friend has these thoughts. I hope you can find out a little bit more, that will let you know if he will still make a reliable confidante, but without adding to your unhappiness.

This friend is causing quite a bit of distress at moment. Got a message from him saying he had spent the morning planning how to kill himself (shared some detail). For the next hour I sent message after message through text and phone trying to get a status check with no response. I had no idea where he had messaged from so I wasn't sure how I could get help for him. Was 2 seconds away from hitting send on an email to my psychiatrist asking him for emergency advice when friend finally responds with "Oh, I was in class. Sorry. I'm fine. Too much of a coward and have too much debt to actually kill myself."

*sigh*

I've got about a half dozen new messages from him wanting to vent more of his thoughts, saying he has no one else to talk to. Eh... And this is so soon after telling me he gets angry when hearing about my depressive thoughts because apparently I don't have real problems like he does. Trying not to let that interfere with being supportive, but I feel really tired and don't know what to say to him.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 18, 2020, 04:47:32 PM
So...how do you deal with the feeling of being surrounded by people who don't care whether you're alive or dead?

I had some issues with intense anxiety when I started to get back into labwork this summer. It's not as bad now as it was a couple of months ago, but the tension and discomfort is still there.

I have been trying to work on this in therapy but, due to insurance complications and other factors, I haven't been able to speak much with the therapist for the past month.

Despite all attempts at communicating openly and clearly with PI and labmates, I still believe I could have a medical or psychiatric emergency and not receive help, even if surrounded by people. Too many experiences of assurances failing to turn into actions.

Example (mentioned in another thread): I talked to my PI about moving a few items that I knew would be a safety issue for me if they were in plain sight and too easy for me to access. I made it explicitly clear that seeing the items can trigger or increase suicidal thoughts and urges, and that impulses could lead to actions. He said it was no problem, but nothing happened until six weeks (and two reminders) after the initial request. So for weeks I was in a state of pretty high distress; I couldn't understand why I hadn't been taken seriously. I had to expend a significant amount of cognitive effort silencing the part of my brain telling me he left everything out deliberately because he *wanted* me to kill myself.

Whenever I confront someone about things like this, I keep hearing, "It's not that I don't care. I just didn't think about it." And I still haven't figured out how to wrap my head around that message.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on October 19, 2020, 05:03:42 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 18, 2020, 04:47:32 PM
So...how do you deal with the feeling of being surrounded by people who don't care whether you're alive or dead?

Believe it when people show you that they flat out don't care and then act on that belief to get out of that situation and into one where people do care and want you to live.

You need to prioritize you and that probably means taking a leave of absence from the PI's group at this point.  You need to be with people who will prioritize your needs at the level of being met instead of still focusing on their own todo lists.

Quote
Example (mentioned in another thread): I talked to my PI about moving a few items that I knew would be a safety issue for me if they were in plain sight and too easy for me to access. I made it explicitly clear that seeing the items can trigger or increase suicidal thoughts and urges, and that impulses could lead to actions. He said it was no problem, but nothing happened until six weeks (and two reminders) after the initial request. So for weeks I was in a state of pretty high distress; I couldn't understand why I hadn't been taken seriously. I had to expend a significant amount of cognitive effort silencing the part of my brain telling me he left everything out deliberately because he *wanted* me to kill myself.

Your PI does not want you to kill yourself.  However, he doesn't care as much about you as you need at this point. 

For you, having the items in visible range is an emergency that should be corrected immediately. While your distress is real, it's not visible to others who are focused on their own thoughts and emotions.

While the PI is not malicious towards you, your needs are just one more thing on his todo list.  Thus, while you were in a state of emergency for six weeks, the external reality for the PI is you didn't commit suicide or even need to be taken to urgent care.  Ignoring your needs had no consequences for the PI and he will continue to prioritize other things over you.

I just came from the relationship thread.  This is a situation where your primary power is to leave (at least temporarily) to spend more time with people who do care about wonderful, special you so you can be confident you will get the support you need during this difficult time.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on October 19, 2020, 05:11:01 AM
You, smallcleanrat, matter.

You, smallcleanrat, are worthy of attention.

You, smallcleanrat, deserve to focus on yourself and get yourself the medical care you need.

Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 17, 2020, 10:10:03 AM
I've got about a half dozen new messages from him wanting to vent more of his thoughts, saying he has no one else to talk to. Eh... And this is so soon after telling me he gets angry when hearing about my depressive thoughts because apparently I don't have real problems like he does. Trying not to let that interfere with being supportive, but I feel really tired and don't know what to say to him.

Don't say anything to him.  You need to prioritize yourself at this point and let this guy draw on other members of his support team.  He is an adult with access to counselors and other professionals as well as family and friends.

You have my official permission to just ignore this guy and prioritize you.  You are much higher priority than this guy.

Put your valuable time and energy into getting the help you need.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Volhiker78 on October 19, 2020, 07:51:00 AM
Totally agree with Polly_Mer's last two messages. 
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on October 19, 2020, 09:45:34 AM
Thanks, smallcleanrat--I appreciate the good wishes and I hope things can turn your way as well. I also agree with Polly_Mer's messages.

2nd tele-health meeting will happen tomorrow; meeting with G.P will happen Friday. I will either be officially retrenched or not at the end of the month.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 20, 2020, 07:16:10 PM
Thanks so much for the kind words, polly_mer, Volhiker78, and little bongo.

I've been struggling to figure out if the problem was my expectations. Maybe it's not reasonable to expect people to be responsive to this sort of thing.

Regarding stepping away: if I distanced myself from everyone who has acted this way towards me, I'm not sure who would be left. It would include my parents and my partner. I don't think I would last long with that level of isolation. I'm working towards being able to function more independently, but I'm not there yet.

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Hegemony on October 20, 2020, 07:46:44 PM
Many people are so immersed in their own problems and situation that others' almost don't seem real to them. That's unfortunate, but it's just what happens. And we are bombarded with so much stuff all the time that picking out the signal from the noise, or the important from the merely stressful, becomes increasingly harder.  Particularly now, when everyone is pretty overwhelmed. 

Of course, some people are also just constructed so that they don't feel relations to other people very strongly. The other people are there, and they would probably throw them a life preserver if they saw them fall off a boat, but anything more complicated than that just does not compute to them. Kind of emotionally constipated. And actions that seem clearly advisable to others are not always clear to them — even though you'd think they would be. I know this type because I was brought up by very unemotional parents. Then my friends would need emotional help, and I wanted to do it, but I just didn't know how. It's taken me decades to understand how to respond to people in distress appropriately.  So I can promise that what seems obvious to some is just beyond the ken of others.

Hugs to all who are having a hard time.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on October 21, 2020, 04:45:50 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 20, 2020, 07:16:10 PM
Regarding stepping away: if I distanced myself from everyone who has acted this way towards me, I'm not sure who would be left. It would include my parents and my partner. I don't think I would last long with that level of isolation. I'm working towards being able to function more independently, but I'm not there yet.

This situation is something to discuss with the professionals giving you care and do get multiple professional takes on the situation because you can't trust your feelings right now.

It's always worked out for me to seek better situations, even moving cross-country multiple times ahead of my husband (and later child) to places where I knew no one. However, I was never in crisis during those times, just seeking better and cutting off people who, while not actively malicious, were really not there for me in the ways I needed.

At this point, I have a very good life that would not have been possible if I'd stayed in situations where I didn't fit, despite people telling me I should just be grateful for the external trappings of success and the known situations that, while not great, were not objectively terrible at the time.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Volhiker78 on October 21, 2020, 08:25:46 AM
Isolation.   I went to a counselor after my first marriage fell apart and I became seriously depressed. Most of my social life revolved around my ex and I had to build a social network from scratch. My counselor helped with this and he suggested trying things without great expectations. Just do things that might be enjoyable and meet people.  It definitely helped with my depression.  Did it lead to life long friends? - No.  A few things I did:  joined a hiking club,  took a theology course,  took a crafts course at a local arts center, signed up for a week long active tour out West. 

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on October 23, 2020, 09:01:54 PM
Introduction to buspirone tonight. We'll see what happens next.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 23, 2020, 09:08:37 PM
Quote from: little bongo on October 23, 2020, 09:01:54 PM
Introduction to buspirone tonight. We'll see what happens next.

Good luck.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on October 24, 2020, 08:26:02 PM
Thanks, smallcleanrat. I'll be updating every now and then about this stuff. You take care, too.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on October 24, 2020, 08:34:31 PM
Quote from: little bongo on October 23, 2020, 09:01:54 PM
Introduction to buspirone tonight. We'll see what happens next.

Makes me anxious, tired, achy, depressed. But maybe it'll work for you. Good luck.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on October 24, 2020, 09:28:10 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on October 24, 2020, 08:34:31 PM
Quote from: little bongo on October 23, 2020, 09:01:54 PM
Introduction to buspirone tonight. We'll see what happens next.

Makes me anxious, tired, achy, depressed. But maybe it'll work for you. Good luck.

Thanks for the heads-up. Getting a little headachy--other than that, maybe a little too early to tell.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 27, 2020, 07:40:41 PM
Stuck in a blank state these days. Not much emotion; thoughts difficult to generate; feeling disconnected from everything.

I need to be able to think. I'm trying to plan experiments, process what I'm learning in therapy, make decisions about the course of my life... I can't get my brain to cooperate most days. Any multi-step process drains my mental energy, even basic ones like getting dressed. It shouldn't take me 20 minutes just to change clothes, but there are days I need to regroup and refocus between each step: go to dresser, pull out socks, pull out shirt, pull out leggings, put on each individual item... Why is this so hard? Might need a meds tweak, unless someone here has a behavioral technique to suggest.

I miss feeling awake and alive and a part of the world. I don't know if or when I'll ever get that back.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on October 28, 2020, 06:21:50 AM
Talk with your medical professionals to get help with meds or with anything else you need.

This is beyond what you should tackle by yourself.  Get help!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on October 28, 2020, 06:29:37 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 27, 2020, 07:40:41 PM


I miss feeling awake and alive and a part of the world. I don't know if or when I'll ever get that back.

Been there before.  You'll get it back, even though right now you may not be able to see it.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Volhiker78 on October 28, 2020, 07:23:13 AM
Been there also.   Talk with your doctors/counselors.   Avoid trying to make big decisions.   First priority is to get better - it will happen.   
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on October 28, 2020, 07:56:48 AM
Agree, and I get it.

Right now it's something of an effort for me to keep clean and brush my teeth, for example. (Note: I DO accomplish these things, honest.) And I'm getting some help.

An attitude that accommodates the idea that there's an end to this, and at some point you (I, we) CAN do something, is a big help. I hope this thread can be something of a positive resource for you.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Puget on October 28, 2020, 08:49:07 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 27, 2020, 07:40:41 PM
Stuck in a blank state these days. Not much emotion; thoughts difficult to generate; feeling disconnected from everything.

I need to be able to think. I'm trying to plan experiments, process what I'm learning in therapy, make decisions about the course of my life... I can't get my brain to cooperate most days. Any multi-step process drains my mental energy, even basic ones like getting dressed. It shouldn't take me 20 minutes just to change clothes, but there are days I need to regroup and refocus between each step: go to dresser, pull out socks, pull out shirt, pull out leggings, put on each individual item... Why is this so hard? Might need a meds tweak, unless someone here has a behavioral technique to suggest.

I miss feeling awake and alive and a part of the world. I don't know if or when I'll ever get that back.

I hope you can be gentle and patient with yourself as you sort through this and work on getting well.
Certainly talk to your doctors and see about possible medication issues, but there are also some strategies you can try when your executive function is not doing what you need it to-- basically, you want to offload as much stuff your brain usually does for you to other devices, e.g.,

Make checklists for multistep processes and check them off as you go (hey, it works for pilots and surgeons, why not you?)

Set calendar alarms 10 min. ahead of each meeting/event to give yourself time to transition

Use timers to remind yourself to switch tasks so you don't get "stuck" on one thing for too long (and to schedule breaks)

Write or record (voice memo) notes to yourself as soon as you think of something, so you don't have to remember it.

Take advantage of the times you're feeling most focused to prep for the foggier times-- e.g., if you feel more alert in the evening than the morning, lay out your clothing for the next day then so you don't have to think about it in the morning.

Break larger tasks down into small, manageable tasks and list them all out. Start with just a few minutes on the easiest of the sub-tasks and then see if that helps you keep going.

etc.

I always tell my students (in the health and life skills class I teach) to think of these types of tools as experiments with n=1 -- things to try out for themselves and see which ones may be helpful. They may or may not work for you, but you could test a few out and see.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: the_geneticist on October 28, 2020, 08:57:19 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 27, 2020, 07:40:41 PM
Stuck in a blank state these days. Not much emotion; thoughts difficult to generate; feeling disconnected from everything.

I need to be able to think. I'm trying to plan experiments, process what I'm learning in therapy, make decisions about the course of my life... I can't get my brain to cooperate most days. Any multi-step process drains my mental energy, even basic ones like getting dressed. It shouldn't take me 20 minutes just to change clothes, but there are days I need to regroup and refocus between each step: go to dresser, pull out socks, pull out shirt, pull out leggings, put on each individual item... Why is this so hard? Might need a meds tweak, unless someone here has a behavioral technique to suggest.

I miss feeling awake and alive and a part of the world. I don't know if or when I'll ever get that back.
You're in a really rough place, but it will get better.

I used to use a "least detested task" strategy to do stuff.  As in, I'd have 3 things that I needed to do (shower, unload dishwasher, scoop the litter box).  I'd ask myself which of these was the least awful to accomplish (take a shower!) and do that thing.  That was usually just enough of a perk to convince me to do one more task.
And simplify things for yourself.  Not up to cooking?  It's OK!  Buy canned soup or frozen dinners or whatever you're willing to eat.
Not sure what to wear?  Just wear whatever is on the top of the dresser drawer or closest in the closet.
Having Maestro is really good for you.  When I was at my worst, having to get up to feed Buddycat is what got me out of bed in the mornings.  And your little kitty sounds delightful!  Making him happy is a good goal, even if you can't feel much in the way of happiness right now.
Depression sucks.
It will get better.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Charlotte on October 28, 2020, 11:22:23 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 27, 2020, 07:40:41 PM
Any multi-step process drains my mental energy, even basic ones like getting dressed. It shouldn't take me 20 minutes just to change clothes, but there are days I need to regroup and refocus between each step.

I had an idea when reading this and it may be helpful or it may not. It may require too much work to start it but I wanted to mention it in case you do find it useful.

Some people have success using a minimalist wardrobe. For some, this means having a limited number of clothes with preplanned outfits. Others buy multiples of items and wear the same thing every day. For example, they own four pairs of jeans and seven black T-shirts to wear every day. (Or another work appropriate outfit.) They keep it simple for ease of decisions.

I cannot remember where I read this or if it has research to back it up, but some people say you have a limited number of decision making abilities per day. Each time you have to make a decision, you use up some of your limited capacity to make those decisions. One idea behind the minimalist wardrobe is to eliminate some of the nonessential decisions in the morning to "save" the decision muscle for the more important things.

Now, planning a minimalist wardrobe and or/buying a new wardrobe might be far too much to take on right now. But you might try the idea behind it of eliminating any nonessential decisions. As someone else said, offload anything you can to make it easier on yourself.

If it works with your finances, try one of those meal plans where they send you the food precooked (or if you enjoy cooking, perhaps the meal kits) so you don't have to prepare or think about meals. Just pop it in the microwave. Or frozen dinners.

The easier you can make these tasks, the better. Even a can of soup requires a couple steps that can be eliminated by a frozen dinner. You want to make things as easy to accomplish as possible. The more you can accomplish, the more likely you are to continue to work towards accomplishing things.

I hope this helps. Please keep us updated on how you are doing.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: OneMoreYear on October 28, 2020, 11:48:30 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on October 28, 2020, 11:22:23 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 27, 2020, 07:40:41 PM
Any multi-step process drains my mental energy, even basic ones like getting dressed. It shouldn't take me 20 minutes just to change clothes, but there are days I need to regroup and refocus between each step.

I had an idea when reading this and it may be helpful or it may not. It may require too much work to start it but I wanted to mention it in case you do find it useful.

Some people have success using a minimalist wardrobe. For some, this means having a limited number of clothes with preplanned outfits. Others buy multiples of items and wear the same thing every day. For example, they own four pairs of jeans and seven black T-shirts to wear every day. (Or another work appropriate outfit.) They keep it simple for ease of decisions.

I cannot remember where I read this or if it has research to back it up, but some people say you have a limited number of decision making abilities per day. Each time you have to make a decision, you use up some of your limited capacity to make those decisions. One idea behind the minimalist wardrobe is to eliminate some of the nonessential decisions in the morning to "save" the decision muscle for the more important things.

Now, planning a minimalist wardrobe and or/buying a new wardrobe might be far too much to take on right now. But you might try the idea behind it of eliminating any nonessential decisions. As someone else said, offload anything you can to make it easier on yourself.

If it works with your finances, try one of those meal plans where they send you the food precooked (or if you enjoy cooking, perhaps the meal kits) so you don't have to prepare or think about meals. Just pop it in the microwave. Or frozen dinners.

The easier you can make these tasks, the better. Even a can of soup requires a couple steps that can be eliminated by a frozen dinner. You want to make things as easy to accomplish as possible. The more you can accomplish, the more likely you are to continue to work towards accomplishing things.

I hope this helps. Please keep us updated on how you are doing.

Yes, this is exactly what I have done when I had cycles of significant depression and was trying to make as many tasks as easy as possible and reduce decision fatigue. 
For example, after I did laundry on the weekend, I'd hang full outfits on a hanger, and every morning would just grab a hanger and put those clothes on.
Meals were simplified and preplanned (I lose my appetite when I'm that depressed, so nothing sounds good and it's all about eating some calories). So, every day for breakfast would be oatmeal, fruit, & tea, and lunch was a sandwich, yogurt, and small bag of chips (when I was packing lunches to take to the office). For dinners, I'd cook a large portion of a really easy, comfort food dish on Sundays and just heat up a portion every night.  The fewer smaller things I had to decide on gave me more ability to do the more complicated stuff.  I don't know if this would work for you, but it's one of the behavioral things I would do when I was in that kind of mood.
Be gentle with yourself during this time.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 29, 2020, 03:02:31 PM
Still mentally processing everyone's replies (and thanks so much to those of you who sent me advice through PM; much appreciated!).

Just want to say how grateful I am for all the moral support and practical advice I've gotten from these fora. I've been in such need of some sense of community, and the one I've found here has had a major positive impact.

Will post again soon.

Wishing you all well.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: polly_mer on October 30, 2020, 06:20:52 AM
I'm glad you checked in here, smallcleanrat.  We're here for you.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on November 04, 2020, 08:19:58 AM
Friday it will be two weeks on the buspirone. Periods of calm here and there, with some nascent ability to handle children's meltdowns, followed by periods of my own meltdowns. Still undergoing counseling, with emphasis on self-coaching.

Also--dodged retrenchment for this year, at least. That was an important year, because I finish my 10th year in the spring and get "vested" in July--entitled to a pension, kids attend tuition-free, etc. (Provided there's still a school by then, of course.)

Plus, the McRib, nature's most perfect food, returns December 2. Brighter days ahead...?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on November 04, 2020, 10:19:06 AM
Quote from: little bongo on November 04, 2020, 08:19:58 AM
Plus, the McRib, nature's most perfect food, returns December 2. Brighter days ahead...?

It's always helpful to have something to look forward to!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 24, 2020, 07:31:47 AM
Started oral ketamine this week. Had first dose at the clinic; didn't spontaneously combust so they cleared me to continue dosing at home.

Hope this helps because I could really use some relief soon. I want to wake up and live my life. I've used up too many years fighting just to stay afloat or regain lost ground; forward progress has been excruciatingly slow. I don't know how much more time I can afford to lose before my chances for building a future for myself dwindle to nothing. Most of the people currently in my life have never seen me truly well, and it would mean so much to be able to change that.

More than one loved one on more than one occasion has told me that my suicide would be unwanted, yet still something of a relief: a clear endpoint to the relationship allowing them to let go and move on. Because of love, they don't feel able to just walk away from me, and so they're trapped with me and my issues and an uncertain future, not know when or even if I'll ever be better "for good." And it's excruciating being on the receiving end of that message, even knowing it's not an uncommon feeling to have at times regarding a chronically ill loved one.

Every time someone close to me expresses impatience regarding how long I've been struggling it kills me a little. I'm trying. I know other people have suffered through worse and showed more resilience, but I'm not them. I admit I'm lacking. All I can do is the best I know how with what I've got and who I am.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on November 24, 2020, 09:02:52 AM
You are not lacking; you are fighting--which is really exhausting. Please keep going to therapy, taking the drugs, playing with Maestro. You are valuable.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on November 28, 2020, 11:37:28 AM
Quote from: Morden on November 24, 2020, 09:02:52 AM
You are not lacking; you are fighting--which is really exhausting. Please keep going to therapy, taking the drugs, playing with Maestro. You are valuable.

Thank you, Morden.

Feeling cautiously hopeful the new treatment will help me.

The first 24 hours after the ketamine dose were interesting. Didn't notice a huge difference, but they told me it takes multiple doses to feel the strongest beneficial effects.

I did feel slightly more activated in that there didn't seem to be quite so much effort involved to initiate tasks. One thing I noticed was a mild intensification of affectionate feelings: toward boyfriend, cat, labmates...just about everybody I know (even if I didn't interact with them). It was kinda nice feeling slightly less disconnected.

I did get a distinct break in suicidal ideation (big difference between day before and day after the ketamine). I hope it wasn't just coincidence.

48 hours after that dose I felt pretty awful (mostly due to migraine pain). Spent Thanksgiving day in bed with a cold pack wrapped around my head. Don't know if this was some kind of hangover effect or just a normal migraine. Took about 2.5 days for the pain to dissipate.

Next dose is next week, so I'll get to see if the experience repeats.

Instructions from doctor while trying out this treatment: don't drive, avoid caffeine and alcohol, don't make any major life decisions.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on November 29, 2020, 09:51:48 AM
OK. One dose down, next one coming. Check in with us to let us know how you're doing. Sending all good thoughts.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on November 29, 2020, 08:41:20 PM
Same here, smallcleanrat. Good thoughts headed your way.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Charlotte on January 18, 2021, 10:26:47 AM
Today is apparently Blue Monday (https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/18/health/blue-monday-2021-debunked-wellness-scli-gbr-intl/index.html) and I thought about this thread. How is everyone doing with the start of a new semester?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: dr_codex on January 18, 2021, 08:47:55 PM
Quote from: Charlotte on January 18, 2021, 10:26:47 AM
Today is apparently Blue Monday (https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/18/health/blue-monday-2021-debunked-wellness-scli-gbr-intl/index.html) and I thought about this thread. How is everyone doing with the start of a new semester?

Well, I'm hoping that my colleagues actually attend the mental heath training. We are routinely offered the chance, and I'm routinely the only person to sign up for it. But I have my fingers crossed: the need is obvious; the delivery will be remote; and, it will be 90 minutes instead of 6 hours.

My students are scared, and confused. I know how they feel.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Charlotte on January 19, 2021, 05:00:13 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on January 18, 2021, 08:47:55 PM

Well, I'm hoping that my colleagues actually attend the mental heath training. We are routinely offered the chance, and I'm routinely the only person to sign up for it. But I have my fingers crossed: the need is obvious; the delivery will be remote; and, it will be 90 minutes instead of 6 hours.

My students are scared, and confused. I know how they feel.

I wish my department would offer that training. This semester, all my classes are online and I've been trying to think of ways to be supportive and encouraging to the students when everything feels so distant. I've thought about posting resources throughout the semester but I'm not sure what or how to best approach it.

I know I'm struggling and I suspect my students might be as well.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on January 21, 2021, 07:34:13 PM
Starting a new round of ketamine, higher dose, since whatever benefits I may have had from the first round were extremely short-lived. Going through any kind of treatment and still struggling to function at the end of it feels uncomfortably like failing an exam in school. Like, the instructor did their part but I failed to live up to mine. Sometimes it's hard to admit to doctors I'm still having issues because it feels like a personal failure at this point.

Severe insomnia now...sometimes feel like jumping off the roof out of sheer desperation to not be conscious anymore. And sometimes because I'm just sick of how useless I am most of the time. Memory is shot, sleeping pills just make me groggy without inducing anything remotely like restorative sleep. Tripping and walking into things a lot. Nothing that can't be explained by the prolonged sleep deprivation.

Cat cuddles go a long way towards distracting from the misery of sleepless nights. He has a cute little snore I find soothing, and he is at his cuddliest in the wee small hours of the morning. Still need to find a sleep solution soon so I can be productive; being able to get experiments, chores, and errands done is always a strong morale booster. I need some wins soon, even if they're small ones, to quiet the part of my brain that demands I justify my existence.

Clinging to the fact I was able to give a presentation today and stayed coherent enough to respond to questions and comments. If I can get a decent amount of lab work done tomorrow, so much the better. Might give me some momentum going into next week.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on January 21, 2021, 09:40:12 PM
Do you snore?

I have sleep apnea (corrected by a CPAP).  Before I was diagnosed with apnea and got the CPAP though, i was sent to the ER with back spasms.  I was given large doses of  the addictive narcotics that no doctor will write prescriptions  for now.  They were relatively large doses as well, and the worst part was that they made my apnea worse, so I would go to sleep and wake up every few minutes.  So I had something like what you seem to be experiencing... The pills made me very sleepy, but the side effects prevented me from actually sleeping.  Anyway, I know what it is to be drugged to sleep, and unable to get any sleep!!


Just a suggestion... IF your SO indicates that you snore, perhaps a sleep study would be in order.  A CPAP machine may resolve the not being able to sleep issue.

Of course IF you DONT snore, or if Apnea is not an issue, then please dont worry about paying my bill!!  (2 cat stories in the Herding Cats Thread).

Good luck, and I hope that you feel better soon!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Cheerful on January 22, 2021, 08:14:39 AM
So glad to see your post SCR, was wondering how you were.  I and others are always rooting for you, wishing you the best!

Quote from: smallcleanrat on January 21, 2021, 07:34:13 PM
Sometimes it's hard to admit to doctors I'm still having issues because it feels like a personal failure at this point.

Your feelings matter. That said, avoid negative self-talk.  You are smart and tough and persevering.  There is no failure in your case.

Quote from: smallcleanrat on January 21, 2021, 07:34:13 PM
I need some wins soon....

Getting one thing done a day in these times is a win! 

Quote from: smallcleanrat on January 21, 2021, 07:34:13 PM
Clinging to the fact I was able to give a presentation today and stayed coherent enough to respond to questions and comments. If I can get a decent amount of lab work done tomorrow, so much the better. Might give me some momentum going into next week.

Hooray on the presentation -- major WIN!  Celebrate this, smallcleanrat!  Great to end your post on a positive note.  Have a good weekend.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 02, 2021, 06:59:28 AM
Does anyone have tips on dealing with panic attacks and anxiety? I know these topics aren't the kind of things to be injected into casual conversation, but I just need a remedy. There's probably no easy answer. Look for 5 things you can see, 4 you can touch, 3 you can hear, 2 you can smell and 1 you can taste. Grounding. It's hard to remember when I'm in the middle of it. I guess I just want someone to tell me that I'm not a horrible person for being weak. Logically, I know that I'm not, it's the emotional twist that wrings me out to dry.

I had a major one yesterday and lost the entire day. I can't really talk about it with anyone other than SO. Family (biological) is part of the reason I have them.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on February 02, 2021, 07:14:08 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 02, 2021, 06:59:28 AM
Does anyone have tips on dealing with panic attacks and anxiety? I know these topics aren't the kind of things to be injected into casual conversation, but I just need a remedy. There's probably no easy answer. Look for 5 things you can see, 4 you can touch, 3 you can hear, 2 you can smell and 1 you can taste. Grounding. It's hard to remember when I'm in the middle of it. I guess I just want someone to tell me that I'm not a horrible person for being weak. Logically, I know that I'm not, it's the emotional twist that wrings me out to dry.

I had a major one yesterday and lost the entire day. I can't really talk about it with anyone other than SO. Family (biological) is part of the reason I have them.

Ugh...sorry you're going through this.

It's definitely hard to engage coping skills when you are in high distress. Are you familiar with TIPP? It's an acronym for distress tolerance techniques, especially for when your level of distress is too high to use techniques that require some level of concentration.

T is for temperature (I personally find this most useful) - a lot of people find cold useful for grounding; some dunk their face in a bowl of icy water (triggers a fast, physiological reaction that can help break you out of an anxiety feedback loop); I usually hug a large ice pack

I is for Intense Exercise

P is for Paced Breathing (something like inhale for 4 beats, hold for 4, exhale for 4, hold for 4, repeat)

P is for Paired Muscle Relaxation

And, for what it's worth, I want to tell you that struggling with anxiety does not make you a horrible person.

This thread is here if you want people to talk to.

Wishing you the best, epw!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 02, 2021, 07:40:16 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 02, 2021, 07:14:08 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 02, 2021, 06:59:28 AM
Does anyone have tips on dealing with panic attacks and anxiety? I know these topics aren't the kind of things to be injected into casual conversation, but I just need a remedy. There's probably no easy answer. Look for 5 things you can see, 4 you can touch, 3 you can hear, 2 you can smell and 1 you can taste. Grounding. It's hard to remember when I'm in the middle of it. I guess I just want someone to tell me that I'm not a horrible person for being weak. Logically, I know that I'm not, it's the emotional twist that wrings me out to dry.

I had a major one yesterday and lost the entire day. I can't really talk about it with anyone other than SO. Family (biological) is part of the reason I have them.

Ugh...sorry you're going through this.

It's definitely hard to engage coping skills when you are in high distress. Are you familiar with TIPP? It's an acronym for distress tolerance techniques, especially for when your level of distress is too high to use techniques that require some level of concentration.

T is for temperature (I personally find this most useful) - a lot of people find cold useful for grounding; some dunk their face in a bowl of icy water (triggers a fast, physiological reaction that can help break you out of an anxiety feedback loop); I usually hug a large ice pack

I is for Intense Exercise

P is for Paced Breathing (something like inhale for 4 beats, hold for 4, exhale for 4, hold for 4, repeat)

P is for Paired Muscle Relaxation

And, for what it's worth, I want to tell you that struggling with anxiety does not make you a horrible person.

This thread is here if you want people to talk to.

Wishing you the best, epw!

Thank you, scr! One of the most difficult things for me is just talking about it. Growing up in my family was difficult as they had a very negative view of any kind of mental distress and shut it down as 'being weak.' Not the healthiest attitude in the world... I know.

Funny, I have not heard of TIPP, but found through experience that temperature adjustment is effective (to a point). Cold helps me as well. I was driving at the time and rolled down the windows- it was in the 30's F outside. :)
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on February 02, 2021, 07:47:05 AM
With all that's going on in the world, an anxious response is probably a sign of sanity at some levels...it's the people who pretend everything is hunky-dory that I worry about.

That said, I just want to post as a well-wisher and ally: I think it takes tremendous courage to face issues that consistently affect one's very core: Know that people do not view you as weak but as strong.

Having to overcome so much in order to function speaks to a depth of power in your soul that many would benefit by having.

All good thoughts.

M. 

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 02, 2021, 07:53:16 AM
Quote from: mamselle on February 02, 2021, 07:47:05 AM
With all that's going on in the world, an anxious response is probably a sign of sanity at some levels...it's the people who pretend everything is hunky-dory that I worry about.

That said, I just want to post as a well-wisher and ally: I think it takes tremendous courage to face issues that consistently affect one's very core: Know that people do not view you as weak but as strong.

Having to overcome so much in order to function speaks to a depth of power in your soul that many would benefit by having.

All good thoughts.

M.

Thanks mamselle.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Puget on February 02, 2021, 08:23:42 AM
Caveat that I'm a clinical researcher but not a clinician --

Of course having panic attacks doesn't mean you're "weak", but if you are "weak" sometimes so what? It doesn't make you a bad person, just a human. To quote Leonard Cohen, there's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in.

It can be helpful to know what is going on during a panic attack. Basically, a panic attack is your autonomic nervous system getting activated when it shouldn't be -- i.e., your brain is telling your body to get ready for flight or fight when you aren't in a situation where that applies. They can be triggered by something you are anxious about (panic attacks in the context of other anxiety disorders or stressors), or come out of the blue for no apparent reason (panic disorder). In either case, they are self-limiting-- the intense symptoms will subside within 20 min. or so-- so knowing that may help you ride it out.

One of the reasons the cold or intense exercise methods SCR suggests can be helpful is that they are also things that cause an autonomic response-- that may seem counter-intuitive, but it gives your brain a different, benign, interpretation for your body sensations (e.g., I'm breathing hard and my heart is racing because I'm exercising), which can help interrupt the cycle of body sensations of autonomic arousal spiking anxiety which in turn increases autonomic arousal.

You would probably really benefit from a few sessions with someone who specializes in CBT for panic disorder. This is not long drawn out therapy where you talk about your family etc., but rather coaching on specific techniques to manage and reduce panic attacks and tolerate them more easily when they do occur.You may find this useful: https://adaa.org/finding-help

If you don't want to/can't do that, there are some good self-help resources here as well:
https://adaa.org/understanding-anxiety/panic-disorder
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: OneMoreYear on February 02, 2021, 08:25:52 AM
Sorry to hear you are struggling e_p_w.

You are brave. You are strong. You are worthy.



Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: the_geneticist on February 02, 2021, 09:02:27 AM
Quote from: Puget on February 02, 2021, 08:23:42 AM
Caveat that I'm a clinical researcher but not a clinician --

Of course having panic attacks doesn't mean you're "weak", but if you are "weak" sometimes so what? It doesn't make you a bad person, just a human. To quote Leonard Cohen, there's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in.

It can be helpful to know what is going on during a panic attack. Basically, a panic attack is your autonomic nervous system getting activated when it shouldn't be -- i.e., your brain is telling your body to get ready for flight or fight when you aren't in a situation where that applies. They can be triggered by something you are anxious about (panic attacks in the context of other anxiety disorders or stressors), or come out of the blue for no apparent reason (panic disorder). In either case, they are self-limiting-- the intense symptoms will subside within 20 min. or so-- so knowing that may help you ride it out.

One of the reasons the cold or intense exercise methods SCR suggests can be helpful is that they are also things that cause an autonomic response-- that may seem counter-intuitive, but it gives your brain a different, benign, interpretation for your body sensations (e.g., I'm breathing hard and my heart is racing because I'm exercising), which can help interrupt the cycle of body sensations of autonomic arousal spiking anxiety which in turn increases autonomic arousal.

You would probably really benefit from a few sessions with someone who specializes in CBT for panic disorder. This is not long drawn out therapy where you talk about your family etc., but rather coaching on specific techniques to manage and reduce panic attacks and tolerate them more easily when they do occur.You may find this useful: https://adaa.org/finding-help

If you don't want to/can't do that, there are some good self-help resources here as well:
https://adaa.org/understanding-anxiety/panic-disorder

A cold compress on the forehead or back of the neck invokes the "diving response" and will make your heart rate slow down.  Putting your face in a bin of cold water does the same thing, but most of us don't have a sink on hand.  You can keep a chemical cold pack in your bag or car.  It can help convince your body to "reset" at least some of the physical symptoms of anxiety and panic.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 02, 2021, 09:46:26 AM
Thank you everyone so much. I've been wary of posting about this topic for numerous reasons. I really, really appreciate all of you.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: AmLitHist on February 02, 2021, 10:13:04 AM
EPW, about a decade back, people here on the fora were very supportive of me when I was having anxiety issues.  I'll PM you, but I'll second the support for you.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on February 02, 2021, 07:58:34 PM
Quote from: Puget on February 02, 2021, 08:23:42 AM
Of course having panic attacks doesn't mean you're "weak", but if you are "weak" sometimes so what? It doesn't make you a bad person, just a human. To quote Leonard Cohen, there's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in.

I struggle with thoughts like this as well. I do see my mental health issues as weaknesses, but I try to remind myself that having weaknesses doesn't necessarily make you a weak person. It is not the totality of who you are.

Anyway, is there any human being alive who has no weaknesses?

Epw, I don't know if my experiences are at all reminiscent of yours, but I can sympathize with the frustration of not being able to turn to family for support with this kind of thing. I've made about a dozen almost-posts with thoughts about family stuff I'm trying to make sense of, but it's difficult to hone in on individual issues when the relationships are complicated by so many factors.


Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Charlotte on February 03, 2021, 04:56:11 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 02, 2021, 06:59:28 AM
Does anyone have tips on dealing with panic attacks and anxiety? I know these topics aren't the kind of things to be injected into casual conversation, but I just need a remedy. There's probably no easy answer. Look for 5 things you can see, 4 you can touch, 3 you can hear, 2 you can smell and 1 you can taste. Grounding. It's hard to remember when I'm in the middle of it. I guess I just want someone to tell me that I'm not a horrible person for being weak. Logically, I know that I'm not, it's the emotional twist that wrings me out to dry.

I had a major one yesterday and lost the entire day. I can't really talk about it with anyone other than SO. Family (biological) is part of the reason I have them.

When I was having bad panic attacks, I was told to try meditation. I did, and maybe it helped a little, but I didn't notice much of anything. Until I tried a mediation app that walked me through how to do several different kinds of meditation. I used the Balance app because they have several 10 day courses on learning to meditate in addition to several singles to use in specific situations.

It's not a quick fix, but it has helped me and turned me into a believer. I was very skeptical of meditation having much benefit before but now that I've been meditating for two months (63 day streak!) and have worked through so many of their courses I have found a lot of benefits.

One thing I didn't know was that there were different kinds: body scan, breath control, etc. the app taught me which ones worked for me and which ones did not.

In a way, I think part of the benefit is that I feel I gained control by meditating. I've learned to recognize a physical sensation and accept it. (Well, working on it but making progress!) In a panic attack, you lose that control and just working on regaining control at other times made me more confident.

I also started practicing yoga and although it took awhile, I'm starting to see some parallels with meditation and beginning to learn how to relax. I use free YouTube videos from Yoga with Adriene.

I was told many times to try both of these and I did a little, but not seriously. It wasn't until I began practicing both daily and had been doing it for awhile that I began to notice it was helping.

Again, not a quick fix but it may help.

A more quick (temporary) fix may be asking your doctor for medication. It helped me just knowing that I had it available should I need it. That takes some of the fear of having a panic attack out of the equation.

As others have noted, temperature can help. I like a shower if possible. Depending on the situation, cold or hot. Avoiding caffeine and sugar might be helpful as well. Sometimes having a little ritual helps me. If I feel one coming on and I'm home, I make some herbal tea. I got some beautiful little tea cups and I sit in a specific area, surrounded by my plants, I'll light a candle, and focus on how lovely the plants are or the flickering candle flame, or sipping hot, yummy, tea out of such a beautiful cup.

You might find your own little peaceful ritual that helps. Preferably one that translates well to other locations like work or the car rather than just being available at home.

Much of this is just personal experience and may not help but I wanted to try and offer some support. I know how terrifying panic attacks can be and debilitating. I also grew up in a home where my issues with panic attacks were not considered real so I understand the lack of support and how it can interfere with your perception of yourself.

Sending good thoughts your way and please let us know how you are doing. Remember to take care of yourself and give yourself what you need in this time.

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 03, 2021, 07:01:23 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 02, 2021, 07:58:34 PM
Quote from: Puget on February 02, 2021, 08:23:42 AM
Of course having panic attacks doesn't mean you're "weak", but if you are "weak" sometimes so what? It doesn't make you a bad person, just a human. To quote Leonard Cohen, there's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in.

I struggle with thoughts like this as well. I do see my mental health issues as weaknesses, but I try to remind myself that having weaknesses doesn't necessarily make you a weak person. It is not the totality of who you are.

Anyway, is there any human being alive who has no weaknesses?

Epw, I don't know if my experiences are at all reminiscent of yours, but I can sympathize with the frustration of not being able to turn to family for support with this kind of thing. I've made about a dozen almost-posts with thoughts about family stuff I'm trying to make sense of, but it's difficult to hone in on individual issues when the relationships are complicated by so many factors.

I understand this in a logical, rational way, but when it comes to emotional response (most likely due to familial messages that have been passed down) everything goes out the window.

Weakness is part of being human. We're not superheros, X-men or immortal- though we may wish to be. I just need to find a way to stop beating myself up when I have an attack and just accept that it's part of my history and human experience. It doesn't have to be something that is shameful, it just is.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on February 03, 2021, 07:17:02 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 03, 2021, 07:01:23 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 02, 2021, 07:58:34 PM
Quote from: Puget on February 02, 2021, 08:23:42 AM
Of course having panic attacks doesn't mean you're "weak", but if you are "weak" sometimes so what? It doesn't make you a bad person, just a human. To quote Leonard Cohen, there's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in.

I struggle with thoughts like this as well. I do see my mental health issues as weaknesses, but I try to remind myself that having weaknesses doesn't necessarily make you a weak person. It is not the totality of who you are.

Anyway, is there any human being alive who has no weaknesses?

Epw, I don't know if my experiences are at all reminiscent of yours, but I can sympathize with the frustration of not being able to turn to family for support with this kind of thing. I've made about a dozen almost-posts with thoughts about family stuff I'm trying to make sense of, but it's difficult to hone in on individual issues when the relationships are complicated by so many factors.

I understand this in a logical, rational way, but when it comes to emotional response (most likely due to familial messages that have been passed down) everything goes out the window.


Yup.

It's frustrating trying to counteract those ingrained responses. The self-destructive/self-loathing thoughts and feelings are deeply rooted; the self-compassionate/self-accepting thoughts and feelings are relatively new and are easily overwhelmed by the old thought patterns.

I've been told this can change through consistent practice, but it hasn't happened for me yet...

This is a resource that's been recommended to me: https://self-compassion.org/

Maybe you'd find it useful.

It made very little sense to me at first, but I'm finally starting to understand (intellectually) the basic premises. Still trying to figure out how to put it into practice.

Best wishes, e_p_w!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 03, 2021, 09:49:28 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 03, 2021, 07:17:02 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 03, 2021, 07:01:23 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 02, 2021, 07:58:34 PM
Quote from: Puget on February 02, 2021, 08:23:42 AM
Of course having panic attacks doesn't mean you're "weak", but if you are "weak" sometimes so what? It doesn't make you a bad person, just a human. To quote Leonard Cohen, there's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in.

I struggle with thoughts like this as well. I do see my mental health issues as weaknesses, but I try to remind myself that having weaknesses doesn't necessarily make you a weak person. It is not the totality of who you are.

Anyway, is there any human being alive who has no weaknesses?

Epw, I don't know if my experiences are at all reminiscent of yours, but I can sympathize with the frustration of not being able to turn to family for support with this kind of thing. I've made about a dozen almost-posts with thoughts about family stuff I'm trying to make sense of, but it's difficult to hone in on individual issues when the relationships are complicated by so many factors.

I understand this in a logical, rational way, but when it comes to emotional response (most likely due to familial messages that have been passed down) everything goes out the window.


Yup.

It's frustrating trying to counteract those ingrained responses. The self-destructive/self-loathing thoughts and feelings are deeply rooted; the self-compassionate/self-accepting thoughts and feelings are relatively new and are easily overwhelmed by the old thought patterns.

I've been told this can change through consistent practice, but it hasn't happened for me yet...

This is a resource that's been recommended to me: https://self-compassion.org/

Maybe you'd find it useful.

It made very little sense to me at first, but I'm finally starting to understand (intellectually) the basic premises. Still trying to figure out how to put it into practice.

Best wishes, e_p_w!

Yup is right! :)

Over the years I have learned to tone down the frequency and duration of the attacks (not necessarily the intensity), so I'm more able to function in society. If I could write down a formula and tell you how to deal with it to lessen the effects even an iota, I would.

I do know that I usually have music 'playing in my head' sometimes the same song on loop for days, which might drive other people crazy, but it can be soothing to me. Concentrating on counting is also something that can help. Sometimes repetition helps me calm down. Does it help you? 

I will check out the link. Thanks.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on February 03, 2021, 10:31:13 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 03, 2021, 09:49:28 AM

I do know that I usually have music 'playing in my head' sometimes the same song on loop for days, which might drive other people crazy, but it can be soothing to me. Concentrating on counting is also something that can help. Sometimes repetition helps me calm down. 


I've found that that helps me too.  In fact, I'm cultivating a nice tune in my head right now as I type this (Hoping it will come in useful in a minute when I take a look at one of the acrimonious debate threads here!).  There are a lot of ways of self-calming.

I had anxiety attacks fairly often years ago.  I just kind of bore it for some years, until a change in my life circumstances (long story) relieved me of the worst of the structural anxiety.  More recently I was beginning to have the attacks again as part of renewed depression.  I know the things that triggered the depression, but can't figure out why they brought about a response so overwhelming.  I ended up taking antidepressant medication, which I am currently still taking at a low dosage.  It did a lot to relieve the obsessive thought patterns.  Through it all, I've also relied a lot on prayer, alone and with others.

All of which is to say, there are several ways to deal with it.  I'd recommend the self-calming and prayer and, if it's really necessary, looking at medication from a trained professional.  And wishing you well as you deal with this.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Charlotte on February 03, 2021, 12:25:30 PM
I hope it's okay to post this but I thought I'd share because the Balance meditation app has been so helpful for me. They've just announced that they are offering a free year to anyone who wants it. I believe all you have to do is download the app but if you search on social media for their pages then it should show up with the details. They are the ones who offer the ten day courses I mentioned in my previous post.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: teach_write_research on February 03, 2021, 06:23:54 PM
I am at my wits' end with my spouse who can't keep straight that I work from 8:30am-5pm. My remote teaching space is clearly marked and has been in near constant use since March. My work calendar is synced to our shared calendar. We've been together since grad school so spouse is well familiar with what academic work is.

Spouse agreed to supervise remote learning child during my work hours and then works part time out of the home evenings and weekends. We're both certainly stretched thin.

The extra lights are on, the meeting is running, my headphones are on, the teaching stage is in full operational mode. No, I don't need to know that you are going to take a shower now and in fact, you probably should remember that -everything- will get picked up by my microphone given the "energy efficient" layout of our apartment. No you probably shouldn't run out to do errands 20 minutes before my class starts and the child hasn't had lunch. Maybe give your full attention to the child rather than gaming or reading the news online since their solution is then to wander down to me to solve their problem, again.

<banging head on wall> I know remote work from home and family life is hard and others are in the same boat but there's some layer of forgetting or adhd or something that is just driving me insane. Has anyone found a way through this?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on February 03, 2021, 06:56:09 PM
Quote from: teach_write_research on February 03, 2021, 06:23:54 PM
I am at my wits' end with my spouse who can't keep straight that I work from 8:30am-5pm. My remote teaching space is clearly marked and has been in near constant use since March. My work calendar is synced to our shared calendar. We've been together since grad school so spouse is well familiar with what academic work is.

Spouse agreed to supervise remote learning child during my work hours and then works part time out of the home evenings and weekends. We're both certainly stretched thin.

The extra lights are on, the meeting is running, my headphones are on, the teaching stage is in full operational mode. No, I don't need to know that you are going to take a shower now and in fact, you probably should remember that -everything- will get picked up by my microphone given the "energy efficient" layout of our apartment. No you probably shouldn't run out to do errands 20 minutes before my class starts and the child hasn't had lunch. Maybe give your full attention to the child rather than gaming or reading the news online since their solution is then to wander down to me to solve their problem, again.

<banging head on wall> I know remote work from home and family life is hard and others are in the same boat but there's some layer of forgetting or adhd or something that is just driving me insane. Has anyone found a way through this?

That does sound very frustrating. Is spouse aware of how much this is irritating you? IMO, being clueless is one issue, but continuing to do things you've been specifically asked not to do is a different issue. Clueless is probably easier to deal with.

Does your work set up include a door that can serve as a barrier? I worked out a system with my SO that an open door means it's ok to just pop in, a closed door means "please knock", and a closed door with a magnet on it means "do not disturb."

If he wants to say something to me when I'm in do not disturb mode, he sends me a text (just as he would if I were away from home). This way he does not inadvertently crash Zoom meetings or break my concentration when I'm working. We have a system for marking his "do not disturb" hours as well.

Do you think a system like this might help?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: teach_write_research on February 04, 2021, 07:54:31 AM
yep we have a similar system though my workspace is in a family shared space - I have a barrier up so my family doesn't have to show up as background when they come through. The situation is as you said - continuing to do things after several conversations circling back to quiet hours, concentration, door closed = do not disturb, etc.

thanks for understanding. I'm tired of constantly re-asserting my needs and that gives me a little bit of fresh energy to think about the situation more clearly.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Charlotte on February 04, 2021, 08:05:17 AM
Quote from: teach_write_research on February 04, 2021, 07:54:31 AM
yep we have a similar system though my workspace is in a family shared space - I have a barrier up so my family doesn't have to show up as background when they come through. The situation is as you said - continuing to do things after several conversations circling back to quiet hours, concentration, door closed = do not disturb, etc.

thanks for understanding. I'm tired of constantly re-asserting my needs and that gives me a little bit of fresh energy to think about the situation more clearly.

Have you had a chance to discuss each person's responsibility and agree on how the workload is shared? My first thought was that your spouse might be trying to hint that they are not happy with the way the load is distributed but of course I may be totally off the target here!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: sprout on February 04, 2021, 10:02:49 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on February 04, 2021, 08:05:17 AM
Quote from: teach_write_research on February 04, 2021, 07:54:31 AM
yep we have a similar system though my workspace is in a family shared space - I have a barrier up so my family doesn't have to show up as background when they come through. The situation is as you said - continuing to do things after several conversations circling back to quiet hours, concentration, door closed = do not disturb, etc.

thanks for understanding. I'm tired of constantly re-asserting my needs and that gives me a little bit of fresh energy to think about the situation more clearly.

Have you had a chance to discuss each person's responsibility and agree on how the workload is shared? My first thought was that your spouse might be trying to hint that they are not happy with the way the load is distributed but of course I may be totally off the target here!

This was my thought.  It seems like there's something about the situation that's not working for your spouse and you two need to have a frank conversation about how to balance time.  For example, maybe make your 'on-camera' times absolute do-not-disturbs (or text only) but have more flexibility around other times.  And if you're literally on Zoom with student 8:30-5pm, I'm sorry, that seriously sucks.

For what it's worth, if you're expecting to be completely undisturbed 8:30-5pm every workday and your spouse to be 100% focused on your child during that time, that's an unreasonable expectation.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: teach_write_research on February 04, 2021, 04:28:27 PM
Quote from: sprout on February 04, 2021, 10:02:49 AM
This was my thought.  It seems like there's something about the situation that's not working for your spouse and you two need to have a frank conversation about how to balance time.  For example, maybe make your 'on-camera' times absolute do-not-disturbs (or text only) but have more flexibility around other times.  And if you're literally on Zoom with student 8:30-5pm, I'm sorry, that seriously sucks.

For what it's worth, if you're expecting to be completely undisturbed 8:30-5pm every workday and your spouse to be 100% focused on your child during that time, that's an unreasonable expectation.

For clarity, obviously no I'm not expecting to be completely undisturbed 8:30-5pm. I mean that would be lovely, no lie. I *would* like to be consistently supported by my spouse in those being work hours. Some days are 6 hours of meeting with classes, appointments, and committees so yeah, there are some long days.

The shower conversation interruption happened during a class meeting - two days in a row. Thus prompting my exasperation. We've had conversations. We made a plan. We checked the plan. Spouse commented today that maybe they should take their shower in the morning before work/school time starts. Well, yeah. That's what *was* happening!

I'm 100% evenings and all weekend when spouse is working. It's a pandemic with disrupted work, school, and child care. It's unreasonable expectations all around. Within that system, I still need to get work done. Gone are the days when I could pull all-nighters to make up the difference...
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on February 13, 2021, 11:26:45 AM
Wasn't sure which would be the best thread for posting this.

Feeling pretty down at moment.

Twice this week I collapsed into convulsions while in lab. Memory is kinda fuzzy about what happened so I have to rely on accounts from my PI and labmates as to what happened. Apparently it was different from my previous bouts of tics and spasms in that my eyes rolled back and I was unresponsive or only semi-responsive for a while. Second time it happened scared people enough to call paramedics, but I didn't want to go to the hospital. Since I was coherent enough by the time they arrived to know my name, the year, and my location, they couldn't make me go.

Em...I don't really know what to make of this. Just feeling tired and sad.

Trying to focus on prepping for imminent quals.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on February 13, 2021, 05:10:02 PM
All good thoughts to you.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Harlow2 on February 13, 2021, 07:48:45 PM
Thinking of you, Small Clean Rat.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: dr_codex on February 13, 2021, 08:29:30 PM
Be brave, SCR.

Stay resilient.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on February 14, 2021, 09:37:30 AM
I'm sorry this happened to you SCR. I understand not wanting to go to the hospital with the paramedics, but I hope you have booked in to see your regular doctors (specialist and GP). Wishing you all the best.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 14, 2021, 09:43:40 AM
I hope today is better, scr. I second checking in with the docs.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on February 14, 2021, 09:52:36 AM
You've probably been through all this before, but the eye-rolling response almost sounds like a diabetic attack or a petit-mal seizure; I presume you've been checked for those already, but they definitely want further exploration.

You sound like you usually take good care with your diet, but odd things can creep up on one if starch-to sugar conversion suddenly shifts in your system (mine did a few years back, and a momentary fugue somewhat like what you describe made me realize foods I'd always loved and been fine with were suddenly and forevermore on my no-go list.)

It could also be the stress of preparing for your quals, of course, exacerbated by staying up later than usual to study, eating more sugary snacks, or drinking more coffee, etc.

But I'm just brainstorming on differentials, here, I'm definitely in the "Talk to your doc now" camp of well-wishers.

Many good thoughts in all cases.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on February 15, 2021, 06:33:18 AM
Quote from: mamselle on February 14, 2021, 09:52:36 AM
You've probably been through all this before, but the eye-rolling response almost sounds like a diabetic attack or a petit-mal seizure; I presume you've been checked for those already, but they definitely want further exploration.

You sound like you usually take good care with your diet, but odd things can creep up on one if starch-to sugar conversion suddenly shifts in your system (mine did a few years back, and a momentary fugue somewhat like what you describe made me realize foods I'd always loved and been fine with were suddenly and forevermore on my no-go list.)

It could also be the stress of preparing for your quals, of course, exacerbated by staying up later than usual to study, eating more sugary snacks, or drinking more coffee, etc.

But I'm just brainstorming on differentials, here, I'm definitely in the "Talk to your doc now" camp of well-wishers.

Many good thoughts in all cases.

M.

Out of curiosity, which foods did you end up cutting out in order to feel better?

Maybe some combo of prolonged sleep deprivation, stress, and inconsistent eating schedule has something to do with what's been going on with me. It's different from what I've experienced before.

For the second episode, I heard the paramedics say "tonic-clonic" a couple of times after a labmate described what he had observed. Labmate told me my whole body stiffened and was shaking/convulsing head-to-toe.

My PI witnessed the first episode and said it got scary when I seemed to have trouble taking in a full breath. My memory of this consists of being at my desk feeling kinda woozy and then coming to groggy awareness of my PI sitting in front of me asking if I was "back." I think about 30 minutes passed in between, during which I fell on the floor at some point and was helped back into my chair after the spasms had stopped and I was semi-responsive. Most of that time I was just really out of it, and PI was watching for me to come back to full awareness.

I've had tic fits that were mistaken for seizures, but I've always been aware I was having a tic fit (and had enough conscious control to give some sort of signal, like a head nod or a waved hand, that I was ok and it was not an emergency situation). I never had to have someone tell me I had a tic fit, and I've never come out of a tic fit feeling so dazed and disoriented. And tic fits tend to last longer than 1-2 minutes (which is how long each of these convulsive episodes lasted). Episodes of eyes rolled back while being unresponsive (but no body spasms) have also been happening.

I don't think these were actual seizures, but it is all a new development.

Last episode happened a couple of days ago; since then I've been pretty groggy or sleepy most of the time. Maybe it's cured my insomnia?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on February 15, 2021, 08:12:55 AM
Good for you for trying to find the humor in this situation...it takes courage to do that!

I had to say, "good-bye" to Brussels sprouts, asparagus, cabbage and broccoli. All have a huge starch content that, metabolized to sugar, can overwhelm the body's balance, as I understand it. Still sorting out if its an early-onset diabetic-like thing (my dad had that, was terribly non-compliant, and lived to be 92; I plan to be a little wiser about it) or what, but it hit out of the blue about two years ago now, and was heralded by a couple of serious upchucks (sorry) and a couple of late-night incidents after a heavily vegetable-laden dinner (I was hoping to lose weight!) of being disoriented, having what felt like a mini-seuzure, and having to catch myself to keep from falling down.

Nothing like that's happened since I trimmed all the offending edibles out of my diet (and I used to love and eat them all) but it was indeed scary and unexpected; seems to be a metabolic thing the body just does at times, possibly tied to other issues (I was also cutting out all white sugar, which I once liberally added to each of the 8 or 10 cups of tea I drink daily, which may have been the overload culprit to begin with.

This was, thankfully, figured out by a diet survey, obviating the need for a glucose-tolerance regime, but a more definitive answer might come via the latter if there are other differential diagnoses possible.

An MD or RNNP would be the best resource.

M.

ETA: Agreeing with One More Year, "tonic-clonic" seizures are neurological in origin so that is a dimension to explore as well.

It feels odd, sometimes, having our bodies be the sites of scientific discovery that we must essentially initiate ourselves.....M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: OneMoreYear on February 15, 2021, 08:15:41 AM
smallcleanrat, I hope your week has improved.
Are you working with a neurologist as part of your medical team?  If these experiences are new, perhaps a new assessment is in order.
Good thoughts to you.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Puget on February 15, 2021, 08:35:40 AM
SCR, it certainly sounds like you should see a neurologist for evaluation as soon as possible, since what you're describing certainly sounds like seizures (which come in many flavors, including absence seizures that don't involve spasms, and partial seizures that can mimic tics). If you've had any recent changes in medication that should be checked out too-- anything that increases the excitatory to inhibitory neurotransmitter balance could be at play here.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Hegemony on February 16, 2021, 01:05:00 AM
Smallcleanrat, I'm sorry this is happening. They certainly sound like the seizures one of my epileptic friends had. (For some reason I have a number of epileptic friends, to wit, four) Petit mal. Sometimes she herself didn't realize she had them. They only figured it out because she was a bank teller and sometimes she'd sort of zone out in the middle of counting bills, and "come to" a few seconds later but be at the wrong place in her counting. Later the seizures intensified. For what it's worth, all of my epileptic friends' epilepsy has been completely controlled ever since they found the right dose of the anti-epileptic drugs. But before that, stress definitely made them come more often.  I hope you can get some pros on the case and get it straightened out so you don't have to worry about it any more — more worry is not at all what the doctor ordered.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on March 28, 2021, 07:16:01 PM
Been kinda white-knuckling my way through the last week or so due to a strong resurgence in depressive symptoms and suicidal thoughts. With any luck, it's just a meds issue, and when I finally get my delayed refills things will ease up.

Part of me thinks, "Hey, I guess this is a fair indication that the meds are providing real benefits. That's a good thing; you are on meds that work." and part of me thinks, "So, the improvements you've made have more to do with your biochemistry and less to do with all those higher order cognitive skills you thought you were developing? That's...disappointing."

Mostly grappling with a sense of being depleted, used up. Like I've outlived my usefulness and my potential. Feeling guilty for the people in my life still hanging in there hoping to see me recover and live up to my abilities and ambitions. It's one thing to stand by someone going through a rough patch in their lives and another to do the same for someone with chronic issues. At some point it just isn't worth it anymore.

I'm wondering if this is why I have so much difficulty sometimes getting help from doctors.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on March 29, 2021, 08:12:24 AM
Hi Smallcleanrat, I was just wondering how you were doing the other day. You said:
QuotePart of me thinks, "Hey, I guess this is a fair indication that the meds are providing real benefits. That's a good thing; you are on meds that work." and part of me thinks, "So, the improvements you've made have more to do with your biochemistry and less to do with all those higher order cognitive skills you thought you were developing? That's...disappointing."
One of those higher order cognitive skills is being able to recognize the first part of that sentence. That's a big win. Years ago now, I was on meds, doing fine, learning lots of self-care things, and then gradually tapered off meds. And the depression came back--not right away, but it sort of sneaks up and things got really bad. So back on the meds, making progress, tapering off, and things getting worse--but that time, I had learned enough to recognize the signs before things got really bad. You're there--the meds work and you recognize it because of those higher order cognitive skills. The other part is the depression talking.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on March 29, 2021, 08:20:46 AM
Has anyone here ever been told by someone close to them that there are ways in which their suicide would lift a burden and improve the lives of others? Did you find yourself losing trust in the words "I love you" because of it?

Would you ever say such a thing to another person? How bad would things have to be for you to (even fleetingly) wish the other person would suicide? How bad would things have to be for you to explicitly tell that other person you sometimes wish for their suicide?

Have you ever been so stressed by another person's continued existence (family, friend, colleague, student, anyone at all) that you hoped they would kill themselves?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on March 29, 2021, 08:33:41 AM
Smallcleanrat, I am so sorry that this has happened to you. It says a lot about that person's stress and frustration; it doesn't say anything about your worth. You have tremendous value. Can you access your doctor or a crisis help line while waiting for your meds?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on March 29, 2021, 08:56:41 AM
Smallcleanrat:

I'm sorry to hear that you are in pain. If someone told you that he/she would be better off without you in his/her life then that person is a major asshole. That is an incredibly insensitive and selfish thing to say to another person. It speaks volumes about the priorities in that person's life.

Your worth and value is not dependent on other people's approval.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: the_geneticist on March 29, 2021, 09:25:16 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 29, 2021, 08:20:46 AM
Has anyone here ever been told by someone close to them that there are ways in which their suicide would lift a burden and improve the lives of others? Did you find yourself losing trust in the words "I love you" because of it?

Would you ever say such a thing to another person? How bad would things have to be for you to (even fleetingly) wish the other person would suicide? How bad would things have to be for you to explicitly tell that other person you sometimes wish for their suicide?

Have you ever been so stressed by another person's continued existence (family, friend, colleague, student, anyone at all) that you hoped they would kill themselves?

If your SO said that to you - Kick him out.  Today.  Tell him he has 1 hour to pack a bag and leave.

That is a disgusting and cruel thing to say to anyone. 

+1000 to evil_physics_witchcraft and that fact that you are valuable and needed.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on March 29, 2021, 10:07:30 AM
Smallcleanrat,

Please keep talking to us, and keep hoping.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on March 29, 2021, 11:22:09 AM
I dont remember if it was Dear Abby or Anne Landers, but the question would be, would YOU be better off with them or without them in your life?
QuoteHas anyone here ever been told by someone close to them that there are ways in which their suicide would lift a burden and improve the lives of others?

This question seems to be saying that the one making the statement is saying that their life may be better without you in it.  However, there are a multitude of ways that can be brought about far short of suicide.  Divorce or separation certainly pop up! 

The question turns back to YOU.  At this point you may be dependent on that person for physical support.  IF that is the case, then I would take no action while you need support and the support is provided.  However, when the support is no longer required, i would revisit the questions of how much YOU get from this relationship.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Hegemony on March 29, 2021, 04:44:44 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 29, 2021, 08:20:46 AM
Has anyone here ever been told by someone close to them that there are ways in which their suicide would lift a burden and improve the lives of others? Did you find yourself losing trust in the words "I love you" because of it?

Would you ever say such a thing to another person? How bad would things have to be for you to (even fleetingly) wish the other person would suicide? How bad would things have to be for you to explicitly tell that other person you sometimes wish for their suicide?

Have you ever been so stressed by another person's continued existence (family, friend, colleague, student, anyone at all) that you hoped they would kill themselves?

This is a sign of sociopathy is another person. No one should have to put up with anyone who tells them that, or even hints it. SCR, if this is happening to you, as I surmise — it is no wonder that you feel depressed. Someone is making you depressed.  It is a realistically depressing thought that a person who represents themselves as loving you wishes you would harm yourself, or entertains the thought that it would be a benefit if you did so. If this person is so dissatisfied by your presence, why don't they do the mature thing and stop hanging around with you? To wish for more — to think that the solutlon to their problem is for you to harm yourself —  is literally monstrous.

It's also, just to be coldly logistical about it, completely over-the-top unnecessary! I mean, I dislike my current doctor. She's brusque and she doesn't listen. So, what's a good answer to this dilemma? Is it for me to stop going to this doctor? (Yes.) Or is it for the doctor to kill herself? (Ridiculous idea.)

And if your person thinks that you need to kill yourself so that "the world" will be better off, hahahaha at the idea that he knows what's good for "the world." So many people who know what's good for "the world," right? So many people who have such terrible ideas about how "the world" would be better off. Grandiose narcissism.

A related story: I used to wonder why I had such an anger problem. I tried to suppress my anger, and it only came out in very oblique ways. But if I didn't clamp down on myself all the time, I'd just get so angry at my boyfriend. I got books to figure out what was wrong with me, I consulted experts. Finally I figured it out. The problem was not the anger. The problem was the boyfriend. He was unreliable, hot-and-cold, a terrible listener, demonstrably dishonest ... and he had me believing that my anger in response to this was a "me" problem. Well, it was, in that I didn't see that I had an action to take. And that action was to leave the boyfriend. Anger problem solved.

You may well have underlying depression, SCR. But as the saying goes, just because you're depressed doesn't mean someone isn't depressing you. I hope you can free yourself — no one can expect themselves to be happy in an abusive situation.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on March 29, 2021, 07:11:57 PM
Quote from: Morden on March 29, 2021, 08:12:24 AM
Hi Smallcleanrat, I was just wondering how you were doing the other day. You said:
QuotePart of me thinks, "Hey, I guess this is a fair indication that the meds are providing real benefits. That's a good thing; you are on meds that work." and part of me thinks, "So, the improvements you've made have more to do with your biochemistry and less to do with all those higher order cognitive skills you thought you were developing? That's...disappointing."
One of those higher order cognitive skills is being able to recognize the first part of that sentence. That's a big win. Years ago now, I was on meds, doing fine, learning lots of self-care things, and then gradually tapered off meds. And the depression came back--not right away, but it sort of sneaks up and things got really bad. So back on the meds, making progress, tapering off, and things getting worse--but that time, I had learned enough to recognize the signs before things got really bad. You're there--the meds work and you recognize it because of those higher order cognitive skills. The other part is the depression talking.

I hadn't thought of it that way, but I guess you're right. Recognizing the positive *is* a skill. Thanks for pointing that out!




Regarding being told I'm a burden...I've had the same question of why I need to be dead for the other person to have peace. Walking away from a relationship you feel is harming you is an option; I'm not holding anyone prisoner.

My mom (who is the most egregious offender on this count) explained it to me in a way that does have a kind of logic to it. It's paired to one of her other refrains, "I love you so much, and I wish I didn't."

I think the basic premise is, if you care deeply about someone walking away doesn't mean you stop worrying about them. And SO had a previous partner with chronic depression (and previous suicide attempt), and he felt for a long time he couldn't walk away because she might hurt herself if she did. So walking away doesn't necessarily eliminate the stress; that worry will still be there so long as the other person is still alive.




Hegemony, you bring up a point that's been bugging me about a common piece of 'wisdom': "Nobody can *make* you unhappy; you are in control of how you react; you decide how you are going to feel."

It's not that I disagree with the basic premise, it just seems too extreme. As though other people have zero responsibility to treat you with decency.

I think people who dispense this bit of advice are being too literal with the words "that person made me feel..." Of course they're not directly shoving their hands into your skull and manipulating your brain, but I don't think it's entirely fair to wag your finger at someone who feels hurt when a loved one says, "You're absolutely useless. I think you should kill yourself, and spare the rest of us the stress of having to deal with you. If I have a stroke or a heart attack and die early, it'll be your fault."




SO's version of this behavior was not as malicious as my mom's, but in a way it hurt more because he's *never* said anything like that before. He's never once even raised his voice to me in an argument. So it blindsided me. Unlike my mom, SO apologized afterwards, that what he'd said had been horrible, and that he hadn't meant it. And with SO it was a one-off, unlike with mom.

Even so, I've distanced myself from him. I don't have the same confidence I had before that I can let him see my vulnerabilities without being hurt. We've had discussions about it, and he's been respectful about giving me my space. We are still basically friendly with each other, but it is more of a roommates-style relationship at the moment. We've both aired some of our doubts about continuing the relationship, but that's as far as it's gone so far.

My doctors do think (and I agree) that right now, when I'm going through a lot of meds adjustments and other health stuff, it's not the time to either 1) live alone or 2) make any major life changes.

So right now I'm still focusing on getting stronger and more stable; told my therapist explicitly that I want to work towards being able to function independently, without *needing* someone to be looking out for me (even though it's always nice to have other people who care, I can't rely on that always being the case).

But I'm still not having an easy time grasping the concept of having value distinct from relationships and achievements.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on March 30, 2021, 09:08:48 AM
Hi Smallcleanrat--adding as much as I can to the good wishes.  With regard to loved ones and SO's, I know from some experience and some reading that they usually aren't very good at letting the person in pain know what they (that is, the loved ones and SO's) need, because, as you've noted, things get complicated. I won't add anything to that except, just let them find what they need to find, and concentrate on self-care.

As for value and achievements and relationships--yeah, that's tough. I think talking about those things helps a lot, and having someone listen to you to remind you that such-and-such a thing really is an accomplishment--maybe even a cause for a self-reward of some kind. I don't know in your case how much talking helps, and how much medication is needed (I require a combination of "talking cure" and meds, and it seems to be okay for me for the most part), but definitely try to cultivate people who will listen, whether it's their job or whether they do it through friendship.

Best of luck!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on April 30, 2021, 08:37:02 AM
Quote from: clean on January 21, 2021, 09:40:12 PM
Do you snore?

I have sleep apnea (corrected by a CPAP).  Before I was diagnosed with apnea and got the CPAP though, i was sent to the ER with back spasms.  I was given large doses of  the addictive narcotics that no doctor will write prescriptions  for now.  They were relatively large doses as well, and the worst part was that they made my apnea worse, so I would go to sleep and wake up every few minutes.  So I had something like what you seem to be experiencing... The pills made me very sleepy, but the side effects prevented me from actually sleeping.  Anyway, I know what it is to be drugged to sleep, and unable to get any sleep!!


Just a suggestion... IF your SO indicates that you snore, perhaps a sleep study would be in order.  A CPAP machine may resolve the not being able to sleep issue.

Of course IF you DONT snore, or if Apnea is not an issue, then please dont worry about paying my bill!!  (2 cat stories in the Herding Cats Thread).

Good luck, and I hope that you feel better soon!

Still having a lot of difficulty sleeping through the night. The daytime fatigue is pretty awful. Concentration difficulties kill my ability to be productive; lack of productivity tanks my mood and self-esteem.

I'm trying to get approved for a sleep study, because I'm suspecting the issue might be related to what clean described earlier in this thread.  SO told me recently he heard me snoring and choking/gasping in my sleep (which is relatively new).

I don't want to be a zombie anymore, I want to feel fully conscious again.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 30, 2021, 09:05:25 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on April 30, 2021, 08:37:02 AM
Quote from: clean on January 21, 2021, 09:40:12 PM
Do you snore?

I have sleep apnea (corrected by a CPAP).  Before I was diagnosed with apnea and got the CPAP though, i was sent to the ER with back spasms.  I was given large doses of  the addictive narcotics that no doctor will write prescriptions  for now.  They were relatively large doses as well, and the worst part was that they made my apnea worse, so I would go to sleep and wake up every few minutes.  So I had something like what you seem to be experiencing... The pills made me very sleepy, but the side effects prevented me from actually sleeping.  Anyway, I know what it is to be drugged to sleep, and unable to get any sleep!!


Just a suggestion... IF your SO indicates that you snore, perhaps a sleep study would be in order.  A CPAP machine may resolve the not being able to sleep issue.

Of course IF you DONT snore, or if Apnea is not an issue, then please dont worry about paying my bill!!  (2 cat stories in the Herding Cats Thread).

Good luck, and I hope that you feel better soon!

Still having a lot of difficulty sleeping through the night. The daytime fatigue is pretty awful. Concentration difficulties kill my ability to be productive; lack of productivity tanks my mood and self-esteem.

I'm trying to get approved for a sleep study, because I'm suspecting the issue might be related to what clean described earlier in this thread.  SO told me recently he heard me snoring and choking/gasping in my sleep (which is relatively new).

I don't want to be a zombie anymore, I want to feel fully conscious again.

Smallcleanrat:

I went to a sleep doctor and they gave me a little machine to wear at night as a test. I may have paid out of pocket for this (always ask for a discount). Luckily I didn't have sleep apnea, but I was stressed out. I lost some weight (mass really), started eating healthier, had surgery, concentrated on relaxing and now I'm sleeping better. I still have nights where anxiety keeps me awake, but they are few and far between.

Could you make an appointment with a doctor and do something similar?

SO also has some issues sleeping. Unfortunately he has nightmares (almost every night) and night terrors. Most nights he will kick/thrash, talk, moan, or gasp. I usually wake him up if it gets too bad. Do you have any of those issues? Maybe there's a psychological component if you don't have sleep apnea?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on May 10, 2021, 02:59:06 PM
Struggling a lot lately with self-sabotaging feelings of being too far behind in all aspects of my life to ever catch up. It tinges everything I try to do towards recovery with an air of defeatism, making it difficult to keep pushing to improve.

I've been slow to mature in a lot of ways, and chronic mental and physical health issues have frequently stalled my career and personal development. When I'm well, I make decent progress; people see potential in me and encourage me to aim high. But I can't seem to stay well for long enough stretches of time.  It's seeming less and less likely I'll be able to maintain a research career or raise a family or take care of my parents when they're old. I'm losing hope that I'll ever live a life without this constant fatigue and mental fog I've lived with for the last seven years.

Even if the "real me" is still extant, if I cannot access it, what does it matter?

My PI and doctoral program director have been incredibly encouraging, despite my painfully slowed progress. I feel a desperate need to show them I *can* reach the potential they see in me. I need to prove to them, and to myself, that I can be a scientist. I remember what it was like to be intensely curious, enthusiastic, and diligent. I remember what it was like to get things done, to learn new skills, to mature as an academic and a human being.

I need to experience that again, more than anything. I need to know I've got a future to work towards. I need to know I haven't wasted the time of everyone who believed in me and helped me.

But I don't know how to do that when I'm so unremittingly exhausted.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on May 10, 2021, 03:25:20 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 10, 2021, 02:59:06 PM
Struggling a lot lately with self-sabotaging feelings of being too far behind in all aspects of my life to ever catch up. It tinges everything I try to do towards recovery with an air of defeatism, making it difficult to keep pushing to improve.

I've been slow to mature in a lot of ways, and chronic mental and physical health issues have frequently stalled my career and personal development. When I'm well, I make decent progress; people see potential in me and encourage me to aim high. But I can't seem to stay well for long enough stretches of time.  It's seeming less and less likely I'll be able to maintain a research career or raise a family or take care of my parents when they're old. I'm losing hope that I'll ever live a life without this constant fatigue and mental fog I've lived with for the last seven years.

Even if the "real me" is still extant, if I cannot access it, what does it matter?

My PI and doctoral program director have been incredibly encouraging, despite my painfully slowed progress. I feel a desperate need to show them I *can* reach the potential they see in me. I need to prove to them, and to myself, that I can be a scientist. I remember what it was like to be intensely curious, enthusiastic, and diligent. I remember what it was like to get things done, to learn new skills, to mature as an academic and a human being.

I need to experience that again, more than anything. I need to know I've got a future to work towards. I need to know I haven't wasted the time of everyone who believed in me and helped me.

But I don't know how to do that when I'm so unremittingly exhausted.

So sorry. I have survived suicidal stretches. I wake up to guilt and regret every day. Given what I've put myself and others through I am surprised I can feel as good as I do. Maybe it's humor that keeps me going. Wish I could make things at least this easy for you, my pixellated colleague.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on May 11, 2021, 01:20:21 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on May 10, 2021, 03:25:20 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 10, 2021, 02:59:06 PM
Struggling a lot lately with self-sabotaging feelings of being too far behind in all aspects of my life to ever catch up. It tinges everything I try to do towards recovery with an air of defeatism, making it difficult to keep pushing to improve.

I've been slow to mature in a lot of ways, and chronic mental and physical health issues have frequently stalled my career and personal development. When I'm well, I make decent progress; people see potential in me and encourage me to aim high. But I can't seem to stay well for long enough stretches of time.  It's seeming less and less likely I'll be able to maintain a research career or raise a family or take care of my parents when they're old. I'm losing hope that I'll ever live a life without this constant fatigue and mental fog I've lived with for the last seven years.

Even if the "real me" is still extant, if I cannot access it, what does it matter?

My PI and doctoral program director have been incredibly encouraging, despite my painfully slowed progress. I feel a desperate need to show them I *can* reach the potential they see in me. I need to prove to them, and to myself, that I can be a scientist. I remember what it was like to be intensely curious, enthusiastic, and diligent. I remember what it was like to get things done, to learn new skills, to mature as an academic and a human being.

I need to experience that again, more than anything. I need to know I've got a future to work towards. I need to know I haven't wasted the time of everyone who believed in me and helped me.

But I don't know how to do that when I'm so unremittingly exhausted.

So sorry. I have survived suicidal stretches. I wake up to guilt and regret every day. Given what I've put myself and others through I am surprised I can feel as good as I do. Maybe it's humor that keeps me going. Wish I could make things at least this easy for you, my pixellated colleague.

Thanks, mahagonny.

I get frustrated when people say not to worry about how long recovery takes or about being a burden on others. Why not? The rest of the world cares about those things.

I just don't know at what point I need to acknowledge that I've crossed a threshold past which some of the major aspirations I had for my life are no longer plausible. It's not so much giving up as accepting reality and adjusting accordingly. I know several people who started out in the performing arts, dreaming of acting careers in film or on Broadway. They all eventually retrained for other occupations after years of not being able to stitch together enough gigs to support themselves. That seems more practical than defeatist to me.

I don't want to give up on science. But I'm ashamed of the fact that, while I'm still pursuing my doctorate, many of my high school/undergrad classmates are professors, engineers, or entrepreneurs. Many also have started families. Some have bought homes. They are functional adults. They have roles which make them valuable to others: parent, spouse, friend, colleague, mentor.

What am I? What value do I contribute to anyone else's life?

When I was in my early twenties, I argued my mom was being unfair when she would call me a hopeless loser who would never amount to anything. It felt acceptable to me to still have significant growth and maturation ahead of you during your twenties. It's normal.

Nowadays, though, I feel it would be harder to counter her. What can I really make of myself if I'm still struggling so much?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Hegemony on May 11, 2021, 01:54:28 PM
I think the key is that our lives are not worthwhile in proportion to the amount we produce, the career objectives we achieve, or the number of people we interact with, or even to what degree we help those people or inspire warm and fuzzy feelings in them. I always remember what a determined and happy friend said once: "Your life is for you."

It's true that as academically minded people, we're used to looking at how well we scored on that exam or the grade we earned in that class, and that translates into "What career achievements do I have?" when we graduate into being professionals. And if we want to do those things (actually want to do them and savor them, not just cross them off the list or feel we are "keeping up'), then we should aim at a reasonable amount of them. But there's no finish line where someone says, "You have kept up with the highest performers in your peer group, you are now worthy, you can feel comfortable now." We're used to that finish line (the test scores come out, the class grades come out). We have to adjust to the lack of that as adults.

And we all have a tendency to look at the people who perform best at the easily measured things and compare ourselves to them. The person from the grad school cohort who got the job at Harvard or the big grant or the TV gig, or maybe all three. And the people who come right after that person, with visibly "successful" lives. Of course even those don't tell the whole story. I once talked to someone who deals with a lot of the top Hollywood celebrities. She said, "They're rich and famous, but none of that insulates you from family difficulties, health problems, and emotional pain. Believe me. They have as much of that as anyone. I have talked to them a lot and I know."

But comparing ourselves to the high achievers doesn't give us a true sense of where we stand in the scheme of things, even if we're determined to measure our success in relation to other people. How many people from your high school got derailed and never finished, or finished under a cloud? How many are struggling in part-time grocery store jobs with no benefits? I would imagine more than one would think, because those people are typically less visible on our personal radar. People have children with terrible problems, siblings with terrible problems, a whole range of challenges and difficulties. All of us were led to believe we had bright shiny futures and if they didn't turn out bright and shiny, something was badly wrong (probably with us, but maybe we were uniquely targeted by fate) and it is all bad and a failure. But the truth is that everybody's life is a mixture. (I am leaving out people with genuinely appalling life circumstances, like traumatized refugees and the desperately poor in ravaged countries, and people like that — although they're on the scale of what our lives could have been like too.)

But anyway, everyone's life is a mixture of benefits and hardships. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with us or that we were uniquely singled out. It's the human condition. And the human challenge is to learn to savor the good things, despite the hardships. Because they are there, and they're there for us. Gladioli, ice cream sundaes, bath beads, puppies, a book lent by an old friend, a pillow that is just right, lovely remarks on Twitter (try Tom Cox), whatever pleasures speak to you — all those things are there for us. Despite all the rest of the challenges. The one doesn't cancel out the other, though our response depends a lot on where we turn our attention. It is an act of kindness to ourselves to let ourselves have a space where we relish and savor those things that are there despite how we feel about our CVs or our life achievements. Sometimes we have to bring our attention back to the good things a hundred times a day, because our internal alarm system has set itself on high and is determined to pay attention only to the ways we can feel bad. Turning our attention back to the good is a practice that rewards itself. Hang in there.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Charlotte on May 11, 2021, 03:40:08 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 10, 2021, 02:59:06 PM
Struggling a lot lately with self-sabotaging feelings of being too far behind in all aspects of my life to ever catch up. It tinges everything I try to do towards recovery with an air of defeatism, making it difficult to keep pushing to improve.

I've been slow to mature in a lot of ways, and chronic mental and physical health issues have frequently stalled my career and personal development. When I'm well, I make decent progress; people see potential in me and encourage me to aim high. But I can't seem to stay well for long enough stretches of time.  It's seeming less and less likely I'll be able to maintain a research career or raise a family or take care of my parents when they're old. I'm losing hope that I'll ever live a life without this constant fatigue and mental fog I've lived with for the last seven years.

Even if the "real me" is still extant, if I cannot access it, what does it matter?

My PI and doctoral program director have been incredibly encouraging, despite my painfully slowed progress. I feel a desperate need to show them I *can* reach the potential they see in me. I need to prove to them, and to myself, that I can be a scientist. I remember what it was like to be intensely curious, enthusiastic, and diligent. I remember what it was like to get things done, to learn new skills, to mature as an academic and a human being.

I need to experience that again, more than anything. I need to know I've got a future to work towards. I need to know I haven't wasted the time of everyone who believed in me and helped me.

But I don't know how to do that when I'm so unremittingly exhausted.

I wanted to jump in here and give a couple thoughts that may or may not be of use. Take what you need, leave the rest!

Why do you feel that you have been slow to mature in many ways? When I read your posts you are always very thoughtful and articulate and I think you do a lot of introspection. It may be worth directing that towards why you feel that you have been slow to mature. Is it because you have not reached your academic goals yet? Is it because you struggle in some areas that you feel you should have made progress?

Just a reminder in case you were told as a child you were behind: those charts in the developmental textbooks are generalizations and tools for education. They aren't intended to be taken so literally and have been generalized in ways they should not have. Similar to how IQ tests were developed to identify children who might need special education classes and now are used in ways they were not intended.

I think often we have some vague idea in our head of what we should be and this  perpetuates feelings of being less than. This might go along with our idea of having "arrived" in our adulthood too. This looks different for everyone, but generally goes along with the idea of a white picket fence, a good marriage, 2.5 kids, and a family dog.

But most people don't end up there. It's a journey and everyone's journey looks different. Personally, I don't want kids and so I will most likely never meet some people's expectations on what adulthood looks like. I didn't get married until later, I started a career later because of grad school, by my family's standards I was late in everything. I'm also a lot happier than any of my siblings because I took the path that was best for me—not the path they thought was best for me.

But I think it's also worth exploring what your ideal life would be, what would make you feel like you have "arrived" and also explore why you might be feeling that you need to fulfill x, y, and z.

Once you've done that, remember it is your ideal life and because of life being full of unexpected events not many people achieve their ideal life. And also keep in mind that it's normal and healthy for this view of what you want to change as you go through life. Maybe you don't want a dog right now but in ten years you want a dog. Maybe you want to work as a scientist now but in ten years you decide you want to teach. There is no right or wrong here and just as your favorite music might change over time, your ideal life may change as well as you gain experience and learn more about what you want and don't want.

You know when you were a kid and the idea of owning a candy store sounded perfect? Generally, you learn as an adult that there are things you'd rather do. And what you want in your twenties might change in your thirties and forties and so on. It's a normal part of life for your desires and activities to change.

Consider what would make you happy, truly happy. And make sure that you are not including things that you just want so you can "prove" to someone that you are accomplished. I say that because I was highly motivated to finish my PhD to prove something to my family and that was the wrong reason. Turns out, I probably would have been just as happy sticking with a masters degree and not going into academia. So be careful the things on your list are truly for YOU and not to please others or to prove anything.

Because you don't need to prove anything or accomplish anything. You are already a valuable person. You are a worthy person. Now. Not later once you have done x, y, z, but NOW. And you are the real you. Accept yourself as a wonderful person right now and give yourself credit for everything you have already accomplished! It may also help to make notes throughout the day of things you've done. These can range from small items such as got up this morning and showered to big things such as finishing a project at work/school.

Allow yourself to feel pride and allow yourself to acknowledge that right now, you are enough, you are worthy, and you are right where you should be. You aren't behind, you just are. Everyone has goals, everyone can improve, but nobody is behind or less than.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: spork on May 11, 2021, 03:57:10 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on March 29, 2021, 04:44:44 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 29, 2021, 08:20:46 AM
Has anyone here ever been told by someone close to them that there are ways in which their suicide would lift a burden and improve the lives of others? Did you find yourself losing trust in the words "I love you" because of it?

Would you ever say such a thing to another person? How bad would things have to be for you to (even fleetingly) wish the other person would suicide? How bad would things have to be for you to explicitly tell that other person you sometimes wish for their suicide?

Have you ever been so stressed by another person's continued existence (family, friend, colleague, student, anyone at all) that you hoped they would kill themselves?

This is a sign of sociopathy is another person. No one should have to put up with anyone who tells them that, or even hints it. SCR, if this is happening to you, as I surmise — it is no wonder that you feel depressed. Someone is making you depressed.  It is a realistically depressing thought that a person who represents themselves as loving you wishes you would harm yourself, or entertains the thought that it would be a benefit if you did so. If this person is so dissatisfied by your presence, why don't they do the mature thing and stop hanging around with you? To wish for more — to think that the solutlon to their problem is for you to harm yourself —  is literally monstrous.

[. . .]


Yes. You're dealing with a sociopath. Sever the relationship.

Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 11, 2021, 01:20:21 PM

[. . .]

I argued my mom was being unfair when she would call me a hopeless loser who would never amount to anything.

[. . . ]

Even if the sociopath is your mother.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on May 11, 2021, 11:07:22 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on May 11, 2021, 01:54:28 PM
I think the key is that our lives are not worthwhile in proportion to the amount we produce, the career objectives we achieve, or the number of people we interact with, or even to what degree we help those people or inspire warm and fuzzy feelings in them. I always remember what a determined and happy friend said once: "Your life is for you."

It's true that as academically minded people, we're used to looking at how well we scored on that exam or the grade we earned in that class, and that translates into "What career achievements do I have?" when we graduate into being professionals. And if we want to do those things (actually want to do them and savor them, not just cross them off the list or feel we are "keeping up'), then we should aim at a reasonable amount of them. But there's no finish line where someone says, "You have kept up with the highest performers in your peer group, you are now worthy, you can feel comfortable now." We're used to that finish line (the test scores come out, the class grades come out). We have to adjust to the lack of that as adults.

And we all have a tendency to look at the people who perform best at the easily measured things and compare ourselves to them. The person from the grad school cohort who got the job at Harvard or the big grant or the TV gig, or maybe all three. And the people who come right after that person, with visibly "successful" lives. Of course even those don't tell the whole story. I once talked to someone who deals with a lot of the top Hollywood celebrities. She said, "They're rich and famous, but none of that insulates you from family difficulties, health problems, and emotional pain. Believe me. They have as much of that as anyone. I have talked to them a lot and I know."

But comparing ourselves to the high achievers doesn't give us a true sense of where we stand in the scheme of things, even if we're determined to measure our success in relation to other people. How many people from your high school got derailed and never finished, or finished under a cloud? How many are struggling in part-time grocery store jobs with no benefits? I would imagine more than one would think, because those people are typically less visible on our personal radar. People have children with terrible problems, siblings with terrible problems, a whole range of challenges and difficulties. All of us were led to believe we had bright shiny futures and if they didn't turn out bright and shiny, something was badly wrong (probably with us, but maybe we were uniquely targeted by fate) and it is all bad and a failure. But the truth is that everybody's life is a mixture. (I am leaving out people with genuinely appalling life circumstances, like traumatized refugees and the desperately poor in ravaged countries, and people like that — although they're on the scale of what our lives could have been like too.)

But anyway, everyone's life is a mixture of benefits and hardships. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with us or that we were uniquely singled out. It's the human condition. And the human challenge is to learn to savor the good things, despite the hardships. Because they are there, and they're there for us. Gladioli, ice cream sundaes, bath beads, puppies, a book lent by an old friend, a pillow that is just right, lovely remarks on Twitter (try Tom Cox), whatever pleasures speak to you — all those things are there for us. Despite all the rest of the challenges. The one doesn't cancel out the other, though our response depends a lot on where we turn our attention. It is an act of kindness to ourselves to let ourselves have a space where we relish and savor those things that are there despite how we feel about our CVs or our life achievements. Sometimes we have to bring our attention back to the good things a hundred times a day, because our internal alarm system has set itself on high and is determined to pay attention only to the ways we can feel bad. Turning our attention back to the good is a practice that rewards itself. Hang in there.

HOF'd.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on May 16, 2021, 09:22:38 PM
Hegemony and Charlotte,

Thanks so much for your very thoughtful posts. I think I'm still processing a lot of your points, but I think I can clarify a few things.

I know I want to do science. There was a period of time earlier in my current doctoral program when the meds were working well enough to get me functioning at about 50-60% normal. This was enough to get through my early coursework and my written quals with good marks, and to earn positive evaluations from the PIs with whom I did rotations. It was the happiest I had been in quite a while. I really do love the science.

When I was in the partial hospitalization program, we would sometimes do an exercise listing "reasons to live". "There's still more science I want to do." was the only thing consistently on my list.

What hurts is being too slowed down by fatigue and brain fog to apply myself and do the things I want to do.

An analogy that comes to mind is of a kid who's been anticipating a family trip to Disneyworld for months. The time for the trip finally arrives, but when they get there, something in the local environment triggers allergies. Kid is still determined to enjoy himself, but is mostly just going through the motions. He can't taste the food due to congestion, the rides just give him headaches, he has to squint at the parade through itching, watering eyes, and the allergy meds make him feel heavy and drowsy, so even walking is a chore. He tried his best to make the most of it, but he really didn't have much fun. And the trip was expensive, so it's unlikely the family will come again any time soon.

Grad school isn't making me unhappy; being too shut down to take advantage of what grad school has to offer is what's making me unhappy. I know what I *want* to do; but I know longer know what I *can* do in the future. So much depends on how much function I can recover.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on May 17, 2021, 02:40:58 AM
QuoteWhen I was in my early twenties, I argued my mom was being unfair when she would call me a hopeless loser who would never amount to anything. It felt acceptable to me to still have significant growth and maturation ahead of you during your twenties. It's normal.

Nowadays, though, I feel it would be harder to counter her. What can I really make of myself if I'm still struggling so much?

If someone were talking to me that way, I wouldn't be thinking of how to counter them. I would be kicking them out of my mind.
I could easily ask myself all the things you're asking. I'm pretty sure my father thought I lacked ambition and in a sense he was right. I didn't have much of a plan for success other than working relentlessly. But holding standards that I want in my work that I require was the goal, and I've stuck to it through muck and mud. It's not perfect, but at least it's in steady supply.  Like your love of science.
Regrets, I've had a few, but then again, they are not the point (misquoting Frank/Paul Anka).
In my generation (tail end of baby boomers) we declared 'f**k the establishment and its bourgeois ideas of success. What do they know.' It's not any kind of brilliant but it frees you a little.

Try not to judge yourself by some arbitrary external thing.

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Hegemony on May 23, 2021, 03:33:50 PM
Smallcleanrat, it sounds as if now is the time to grab on to whatever pleasures are most fully possible, even (especially) the small ones. Living the most pleasure-filled life you can right now is probably the best way to handle the period while you're waiting to see what fuller functioning will look like.

I remember once when I'd had a devastating breakup. It came out of the blue and meant I was going to have to change a whole lot of great things very suddenly, like what country I was living in, and I was just reeling. My therapist said, "Whatever you do that brings you some pleasure, do a lot of it." (She obviously did not mean harmful things, like drinking!) I had recently discovered the movies of old-time movie actor Robert Ryan, and so I watched Robert Ryan night and day. I can't remember how many there are now, but I knew then, and I got hold of about 95% of them. Sometimes I fell asleep with a Robert Ryan movie playing, after having watched four in a row. "Whatever gets you through the night," right? So whatever improves your days by a little bit, whether it's old movies, gummy bears, Bee Gees songs, bath beads, crocheting throws, taking pictures of irises, moving all the furniture around, reading all the Narnia books twice in a row, spurning the Narnia books and going for Philip Pullman, buying the coziest bathrobe anyone ever owned, sudoku, massages (or one of those home massage things — I have one! it's great!), high-quality bakery bread — go for it. You shouldn't have to wait to do science properly for maximum pleasure in your life. Notice what provides a little smidge of pleasure and enlarge it as much as possible. Even if it's only partial pleasure, get in the moment as much as possible and dive into that pleasure. Multiple sources are great. It's the least you deserve.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on May 29, 2021, 08:24:18 AM
SCR, I don't know if I've mentioned this already, but I find kratom to be a safe mood elevator. Only downside is occasional dry mouth and strange dreams. I know there's one naysayer on the subject of kratom, but I've been using it two years. Not addicted. I don't go crazy with it. Just enough of a dose to be noticeable. Enhances energy too.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on May 30, 2021, 11:13:22 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on May 29, 2021, 08:24:18 AM
SCR, I don't know if I've mentioned this already, but I find kratom to be a safe mood elevator. Only downside is occasional dry mouth and strange dreams. I know there's one naysayer on the subject of kratom, but I've been using it two years. Not addicted. I don't go crazy with it. Just enough of a dose to be noticeable. Enhances energy too.

Thanks for the info. I hadn't heard of this one before.

I've been having mixed success with the ketamine, so I'm focusing on that for now. But I've got a little list of "maybe/someday" things to try in case current treatments stop working.

I'm not sure why, but lately I've been having some unusually intricate dreams (complex plots and settings). I sometimes try to fall back asleep because I want to get to the end of the story. I don't like the sense of incompleteness that comes after waking without a resolution. It's hard to recapture the details upon awakening.

I'm wondering if prolonged periods of poor sleep/lack of REM sleep can lead to intensive dream rebounds like this.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Charlotte on May 30, 2021, 02:17:42 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 30, 2021, 11:13:22 AM
I'm not sure why, but lately I've been having some unusually intricate dreams (complex plots and settings). I sometimes try to fall back asleep because I want to get to the end of the story. I don't like the sense of incompleteness that comes after waking without a resolution. It's hard to recapture the details upon awakening.

I'm wondering if prolonged periods of poor sleep/lack of REM sleep can lead to intensive dream rebounds like this.

I had very vivid and intricate dreams when I was on sertraline. It was like having a movie marathon every night. Sometimes they were interesting and sometimes they were terrifying. I'm not sure the cause of that but you may want to avoid horror movies/books because they might sneak into your nightly story!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Hegemony on May 30, 2021, 04:25:59 PM
I would advise caution about kratom. Here is some info from the Mayo Clinic:

Although people who take kratom believe in its value, researchers who have studied kratom think its side effects and safety problems more than offset any potential benefits. Poison control centers in the United States received about 1,800 reports involving use of kratom from 2011 through 2017, including reports of death. About half of these exposures resulted in serious negative outcomes such as seizures and high blood pressure.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/kratom/art-20402171
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on May 30, 2021, 05:13:50 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on May 30, 2021, 04:25:59 PM
I would advise caution about kratom. Here is some info from the Mayo Clinic:

Although people who take kratom believe in its value, researchers who have studied kratom think its side effects and safety problems more than offset any potential benefits. Poison control centers in the United States received about 1,800 reports involving use of kratom from 2011 through 2017, including reports of death. About half of these exposures resulted in serious negative outcomes such as seizures and high blood pressure.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/kratom/art-20402171

That's exactly what I was recommending. Cautious, smaller dose use up to a couple times a day. When you start to see tolerance and diminishing effects, back off or stop. If one chooses to use. I have not experienced increased tolerance. My blood pressure is 120/80. Exercise and not being overweight (well, only 5 lbs) help.

I asked the forum about ketamine sometime ago and got a load of scare stories. I haven't tried it, but that's not the reason.

Prytania2 was against SSRI's and gave reasons. She recommended benzodiazepine which I didn't care for.

A good rule of thumb is stick to what are considered smallish dose.

The kratom I buy is a powder. It is consistent and easily measured, not like many street drugs. It doesn't come with a lot of warnings like FDA approved prescription drugs. It tastes horrible and you would never want to consume a lot of it. It's the driest substance I have ever encountered. Mix a little with some fruity yogurt.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on May 31, 2021, 06:06:22 AM
con't

from The Mayo Clinic webpage:

"Kratom also affects the mind and nervous system:

Dizziness
Drowsiness
Hallucinations and delusion
Depression and delusion
Breathing suppression
Seizure, coma and death"

I find this very vague. What dose? We might note that benadryl causes hallucinations and give the example of people who take ten or twenty times the maximum dose recommended for either sleep or antihistamine effects. They want hallucinations. Whereas, being prone to allergies, I have used diphenhydramine (benadryl) at a dose of no more than 50 mg (more often 25 or 12.5) and never experienced any of the effects named above other than drowsiness. Not even as a child.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Hegemony on May 31, 2021, 05:10:59 PM
I think the issue is that since kratom is unregulated, you don't know what dose you're getting. There are different strains, which have different potencies. The method of ingestion also differs, so that capsules will be different from tablets will be different from tinctures. And you are also relying on the individual companies to report their contents accurately, which is not always the case in an unregulated market, and indeed not always the case in a regulated one. According to Healthline, "the production of kratom hasn't been regulated. The FDA doesn't monitor the safety or purity of herbs. There are no established standards for safely producing this drug." So it depends on your assessment of risk and your propensity for risk-taking.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mahagonny on June 02, 2021, 06:06:21 AM
No offense taken. I know that in some ways I am less risk averse that I used to be. Reasons: Our child is grown and decently successful and grounded, so I don't feel the obligation of people depending on me in the same way. Also, when you have experienced major depression as I have, you get used to giving up on solutions. Your'e now looking for productive tradeoff's. SSRI's, nortryptiline, doxepin, wellbutrin, etc. all have bothersome side effects, and some can have lethal paradoxical effect (thinking more about suicide, for example: this is why your psychiatrist needs to watch you like a hawk during the first six weeks of treatment) but they are opted for, and for good reason. Untreated major depression can produce suicide. You can't get any riskier than that. People have given up sex to avoid major depression. It's sad in a way, but it can be worth it.
In some ways I am less risk averse. I no longer take LSD as I did at age 16. Less risk averse is not the same as reckless. Different thought processes. I bet you agree.
I believe kratom being separated by strain is helpful. The smoke shop where I buy has a printout that shows the accents: some give you more energy, some more euphoria, some more pain relief. The stuff has a long history of use. Granted, the salesman didn't graduate from a college of pharmacy, but he's on your side and has a lot of customers that he talks to.
ETA: A friend of mine is an herbalist. She recommends microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms. She demonstrates how to get a very small dose. Ground, mixed with honey. You don't have a spoonful. You mix it up, empty the spoon, the lick it. She's not into getting high. I tried it but it didn't so much for me.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Charlotte on July 18, 2021, 02:03:41 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 16, 2021, 09:22:38 PM
Grad school isn't making me unhappy; being too shut down to take advantage of what grad school has to offer is what's making me unhappy. I know what I *want* to do; but I know longer know what I *can* do in the future. So much depends on how much function I can recover.

Smallcleanrat, I was just thinking of you today and hope you are doing better.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on August 04, 2021, 04:02:50 PM
Quote from: Charlotte on July 18, 2021, 02:03:41 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 16, 2021, 09:22:38 PM
Grad school isn't making me unhappy; being too shut down to take advantage of what grad school has to offer is what's making me unhappy. I know what I *want* to do; but I know longer know what I *can* do in the future. So much depends on how much function I can recover.

Smallcleanrat, I was just thinking of you today and hope you are doing better.

Thank you, Charlotte!

I'm in a sort of mental health support dry spell. Psychiatrist is away for several weeks and contact with therapist is spotty. Had a bad meds reaction a few weeks ago (lost consciousness, collapsed, paramedics were called), so still trying to get the right meds balance.

Also waiting to start physical therapy in the fall (closest available appointment), but limping and in pain in the meantime.

Feeling a bit abandoned by my healthcare system.

Currently looking into getting neuropsych testing to be screened for ADHD and/or ASD. My therapist seems convinced I have ADHD based on the issues I'm having now and things I had issues with as a kid. I have been reading that issues like ADHD and/or ASD can contribute to feelings of fatigue and mental fog (especially pre-diagnosis/support/treatment) due to the energy that goes into coping with symptoms on top of the energy required for day-to-day life.

I've been through multiple types of treatment for depression with only partial improvement. Maybe something else is going on here?

Wait-list for the testing center I called is 1 year or more, no insurance accepted (so out of pocket costs can be over $1000). Called another place that specifically screens for ADHD; they said they might be able to get me in about six months from now, but I would have to convince a doctor to give me a referral.

Haven't even looked into ASD screening yet.

The first place does comprehensive testing (over several days), and they don't seem to require a referral. But it is a longer wait and more expensive. On the other hand, is it worth it if it can give me clearer answers?

Anyone have experience seeking out testing of this sort as an adult?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on August 04, 2021, 09:09:27 PM
I don't have experience with the ADHD/ASD testing issues you ask about, but I'm glad to see your posts, and send good thoughts and hopes for clarity very soon.

Keep at it. You'll get there.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Puget on August 07, 2021, 08:38:05 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on August 04, 2021, 04:02:50 PM
Quote from: Charlotte on July 18, 2021, 02:03:41 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 16, 2021, 09:22:38 PM
Grad school isn't making me unhappy; being too shut down to take advantage of what grad school has to offer is what's making me unhappy. I know what I *want* to do; but I know longer know what I *can* do in the future. So much depends on how much function I can recover.

Smallcleanrat, I was just thinking of you today and hope you are doing better.

Thank you, Charlotte!

I'm in a sort of mental health support dry spell. Psychiatrist is away for several weeks and contact with therapist is spotty. Had a bad meds reaction a few weeks ago (lost consciousness, collapsed, paramedics were called), so still trying to get the right meds balance.

Also waiting to start physical therapy in the fall (closest available appointment), but limping and in pain in the meantime.

Feeling a bit abandoned by my healthcare system.

Currently looking into getting neuropsych testing to be screened for ADHD and/or ASD. My therapist seems convinced I have ADHD based on the issues I'm having now and things I had issues with as a kid. I have been reading that issues like ADHD and/or ASD can contribute to feelings of fatigue and mental fog (especially pre-diagnosis/support/treatment) due to the energy that goes into coping with symptoms on top of the energy required for day-to-day life.

I've been through multiple types of treatment for depression with only partial improvement. Maybe something else is going on here?

Wait-list for the testing center I called is 1 year or more, no insurance accepted (so out of pocket costs can be over $1000). Called another place that specifically screens for ADHD; they said they might be able to get me in about six months from now, but I would have to convince a doctor to give me a referral.

Haven't even looked into ASD screening yet.

The first place does comprehensive testing (over several days), and they don't seem to require a referral. But it is a longer wait and more expensive. On the other hand, is it worth it if it can give me clearer answers?

Anyone have experience seeking out testing of this sort as an adult?

Sorry you're having such a hard time getting an assessment appointment! First thing I'd try, since your a grad student, is to contact your university's student accessibility services-- if nothing else, they will have a list of places they refer students for assessment. Also, if your or a neighboring university has a clinical psych PhD program, look into whether their teaching clinic does assessments -- if they have a neuropsych track they likely offer assessments at a much reduced price compared to commercial clinics. You can also search for a neuropsychologist in private practice in your area--these kinds of assessments are their bread and butter,  it doesn't have to be a whole clinic that specializes in that.

I know several people who have gotten ADHD diagnoses as adults, and both medication and compensatory strategies have made a big difference from them. Also, depression and ADHD frequently co-occur (as do depression and ASD, and ASD and ADHD).
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on September 13, 2021, 06:04:11 AM
Increased daily buspirone from 20 mg to 30 mg. We'll see if that does anything one way or the other.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on September 13, 2021, 07:41:59 AM
I've been doing without antidepressants for several months now.  I still feel down off and on, but not crushingly low.  And I no longer have the excessive sleeping and half-alive feeling due to side effects.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on September 13, 2021, 09:20:30 AM
Good for you.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on September 13, 2021, 09:32:54 AM
Yes, good for you indeed. The whole mental health thing (battle? search? balance?) evolves and continues.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on September 13, 2021, 10:53:21 AM
Thank you, everybody. 

My relationships to God and the people in my church family are much better than they were for a long time.  It has made all the difference in the world.  Although I am grateful for the help the medicine provided in helping to quiet my runaway mind long enough to think about these other things in a sensible way.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Larimar on September 18, 2021, 08:28:08 AM
How does one determine when or whether to begin seeking counseling for stress/anxiety? How does one know when feeling crushed by life   and pessimistic about the future has turned into depression?

Thanks,

Larimar
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: downer on September 18, 2021, 08:41:28 AM
Quote from: Larimar on September 18, 2021, 08:28:08 AM
How does one determine when or whether to begin seeking counseling for stress/anxiety? How does one know when feeling crushed by life   and pessimistic about the future has turned into depression?

Thanks,

Larimar

Feeling crushed by life is already enough to qualify for counseling. Go now.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on September 18, 2021, 09:15:37 AM
^ This.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on September 18, 2021, 11:10:26 AM
Agree with last couple of posts--any kind of downward slump in thinking and feeling deserves attention--more to the point, you deserve it.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on September 18, 2021, 11:20:56 AM
+1

Many insurance packages include coverage for, say 8-10 private visits and 8-10 group visits with a co-pay.

I'd look into that first, as a way of seeing how it makes you feel about going.

If it gives you a sense of relief to be moving towards that option, that's another sign that it could be good to do now.

It's also worth asking trusted friends whom you know have sought help what their experiences were like and if they'd recommend anyone in particular.

One can also do online therapy (a friend of mine whose therapist moved away, but was fine with continuing the contact virtually) does this and is happy with it.

I'm strongly in favor of 'talk' or other kinds of 'encounter' therapy (arts-based, for example) than drug-based to start with. Drugs are most definitely indicated and should be used when prescribed, just be sure the therapist doesn't rush to a prescription without knowing you and your issues fairly well first.

And always keep steady, short notes on your responses to Rx if you do go that route. Biological systems can change and an Rx that worked earlier might be interacting differently with ones system as it ages, or changes in some other way (hormonal shifts, etc.) You want to be able to give solid, descriptive input to your therapist when asked, and when you sense a change that might be Rx-related.

It sometimes takes time to adjust to an Rx regime as well, and notes help both you and your therapist figure out what your system needs.

It also takes courage the first few times, especially if your family put people who needed such help down, or if your surrounding community is a bit skeptical of, scandalized by, or dismissive of people with presenting differences of approach to life.

Ignore 'em. You need the help you need, when you need it, and it's both right and reasonable to seek it out.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Larimar on September 18, 2021, 11:58:24 AM
Thank you, everyone.

It comes and goes, waxes and wanes. I'm feeling better now than I was this morning when I posted last, and just completed the round of grading that I couldn't face earlier today.

I am less than enthusiastic about potentially adding another chronic health condition to my already annoying medical regimen. Dealing with losing my physical health is a significant part of the problem.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: downer on September 18, 2021, 03:14:46 PM
Quote from: Larimar on September 18, 2021, 11:58:24 AM
I am less than enthusiastic about potentially adding another chronic health condition to my already annoying medical regimen. Dealing with losing my physical health is a significant part of the problem.

Not quite sure what you mean. You have the health conditions you have. Recognizing them might help you deal with them.

I do understand the tempation not to talk about them. It can be hard.

And finding a good counselor is generally not easy. Many counselors are not great. Some are no match for over-intellectualizing academics.

But still, at some point you will need to deal with the emotional toll of the health conditions you are dealing with. Might as well start now.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on September 18, 2021, 03:23:08 PM
If it's related to a particular time of day, a timed routine of self-care/relaxation/sustenance might help.

I got this from my mom: in the AM's she always started the day early, before anyone else was up, with her coffee, a piece of toast, and the newspaper (which came at 5 AM fairly regularly).

I was looped in, since I'm also an early riser, to get up, put the hot water on, make the orange juice, and start a separate pan for the baby's bottle. For this I was paid 10 cents a week (in the 1960s).

It's led to my own, a bit more elaborate routine of readings, breakfast, (and prayers) each AM. I notice that if for some reason I have to skip this reflective time the rest of the day feels "off" and it's harder to get things moving productively.

They say that ritual assuages anxiety, which might be a part of it, but I don't experience the lack as anxiety-producing, just as a comfort missed.

It also makes waking up more pleasant: it resolves the question of what to do first. I don't have to decide about that, I know, and the day's other uncertainties can just get in line.

Same for evenings, if things start to feel unraveled near the end of the day. A friend I was visiting in France has me now looking forward to a final mug of hot tea and contemplative thought at the end of everything. We'd sit there silently, each with our own thoughts; when the tea was all gone, we'd go to our beds.

So, maybe you already do this, but if not ,taking time for oneself with a brief, peaceful routine of any sort might be a starting place.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on September 20, 2021, 08:00:05 PM
I hope posters on this thread are having a better day.

I've felt kind of down (low) today, lots of intrusive thoughts, low motivation/energy, ugh. SO reassured me that I'm not the 'things' I was thinking.

I blame the weather and bad parenting.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on September 20, 2021, 08:01:50 PM
Choose the good thoughts.

You have the agency.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on October 02, 2021, 12:35:06 PM
Struggling to put words to emotions I'm experiencing. Still haven't found a replacement therapist for the one who went AWOL. Have had multiple contacts with student counseling, being told they'd "get back to me" and then...nothing. It's been a few weeks.

The cats have been undeniably a boon to helping me cope. Worst intensity of intrusive thoughts is the middle of the night, but with two cats snoozing against me, the fundamental principle of don't-wake-the-kitties keeps me in place. I haven't self-harmed in months because of this.

The comfort I get from the cats is diminished by the shame of needing them to ground me in the first place. Maestro is 'officially' my ESA, and I hear so much scorn towards people who want or have ESAs (including from my former therapist). He stays in the apartment (doesn't come with me anywhere else: bus, class, lab, etc...), so I think I'm avoiding most of the behaviors that annoy people about ESA owners. I still cringe when I hear people complaining about "entitled snowflakes."

I want to be a self-sufficient, resilient, functional adult, but it feels too often like an unattainable goal.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on October 03, 2021, 10:40:35 AM
You are NOT a snowflake. The amount of work you do daily is proof of that.

Turn off that radio channel and tell it to shut up. Every time it starts up again, recite three things you've done in the past week that you're pleased with (even tiny things. When you're depressed, the tiny things matter at least as much as the big things).

And forget the self-shaming over the place of your kitties in your life.

Do you think for a minute they'd let you get away with making them do or be something they didn't want to do or be?

It's between you and the cats, and I suspect they know exactly how important they are to you, and just take it as their due.

Nothing wrong with that picture.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: glendower on October 04, 2021, 07:40:01 AM
Smallcleanrat, I agree with Mamselle. You have sounded so much better since you got Maestro, and then his buddy. If it's hard to think of other things you have done that you can be proud of, think of the kitties. You are giving them a comfortable life, with love and fun and medical care. They are lucky to have you, and they are paying you back by providing emotional support. When your brain weasels act up, turn to the Kitty Channel!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Charlotte on October 05, 2021, 05:40:48 AM
Smallcleanrat,

I agree with Mamselle and glendower. The work you put in daily proves you are not a snowflake or weak or any other negative thing you are telling yourself right now. Most people wouldn't have the strength to get through one day of what you deal with and look at you! Pushing on and working daily to fight for yourself. If I'm not mistaken, you are in a PhD program. That is hard work and you are doing it on top of everything else!

Any therapist who dismisses the value of animal therapy has not kept up with the current research. I'm glad it was a former therapist, but get their crazy ideas out of your head. The research clearly shows the value and importance of animal therapy. As a scientist, would it help you to read some of the research on it? If so, I'd do that.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: AmLitHist on October 05, 2021, 08:04:30 AM
It's been a tough few months, with ALHS's health problems flaring up, and my own have been also, in response. Add in the general state of the world, the nimrod admins I work for, and....yeah. At my recent doctor visit, I saw in the summary note he upgraded (downgraded?) me from "minor depression" to "major depressive disorder."

Still, I'm not in a truly bad place; rather, like some have expressed here, there's just a "treadmill" kind of pall hanging over me, with the sense that it's always the same shit, different day, ad infinitum.  In an odd way, I appreciate knowing that others here are having similar experiences--not that I wish this on anyone, but, you know. It's just hard to find motivation to get things done.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on October 06, 2021, 07:11:45 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on October 02, 2021, 12:35:06 PM
I want to be a self-sufficient, resilient, functional adult, but it feels too often like an unattainable goal.

You are not alone there.  Some of us, for whatever reason, have brains that flake out on us now and then.  I've been dealing with that for most of my life, off and on.  Only yesterday I came in to work, rested and ready to work, and then found some mental block descending on me from out of nowhere.  I was unable to even start working on anything but the most trivial tasks.  I spent hours at work, getting more and more wound-up over my inability to function, until I felt like I had to be anywhere else.  I finally had to tell the assistant director that I would not be back from lunch.  A whole working day completely wasted, and I'm supposed to be the boss.  Today I face a lot of bill paying and payroll work, which is routine business that I should have little trouble with.  But I still have in the back of my mind this dread over all the long-term planning tasks that I couldn't face yesterday.

I'm much better now than I was early last year, but these episodes still happen now and then.  They've held me back from accomplishing everything I've felt I could and should have accomplished in life.  On most days I feel like a mediocrity at best.  And yet, somehow, I have over the years come to be a respected member of the community, and a respected colleague in regional professional circles.  I've always supposed that I've just been a successful imposter.  But I've come to realize that all these people have had plenty of time to see through any imposture by now.  Evidently I've managed to accomplish some worthwhile things in spite of myself.  I suspect that, with persistence, you'll eventually come to a similar realization.

Paul of Tarsus once spoke of having what he called a "thorn in the flesh"--some chronic difficulty, which he never specified, that held him back.  This was over and above the recurring religious persecutions that he faced.  He said of this "thorn:"

"I begged the Lord three times to take it from me.  And he said to me, `My grace is enough for you; my strength is perfected in weakness.'  Therefore I will boast more gladly in my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ will rest on me.  That is why, for the sake of Christ, I am well pleased in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties.  For when I am weak, then I am strong."

The paradox that Paul talks about there has been my experience in life.  It's the best explanation I can find for why some of us have to deal with the sorts of things we talk about on this thread.  It's why others have to deal with other sorts of issues.  They are encouragements to us to have persistence, and to rely on sources of strength beyond ourselves.

So we're just going to have to deal with it.  But that doesn't have to be all a bad thing.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on October 06, 2021, 07:25:25 AM
+1

And sometimes, it's the feeling that something is wrong that needs to be listened to, because some part of our mysterious selves has caught a whiff of a problem that everyone else is passing off as a bit of stray methane in the air.

Others often don't help, trying to paper over a problem that needs to be addressed rather than ignored. It's not always a bowl of laughs, being the prophetic person in the room who sees where the train is heading if it isn't rerouted or stopped, but honoring the truth you know to be true about yourself or a situation is the right way to go.

We grow in courage as we handle these things, and find the strength to overcome them, somehow, if we just start.

(And some days, the Sabbath you need isn't always on a Sunday or Saturday, Apl68. Maybe you just needed that day off for perspective, too.)

Honor yourself as gift, even the thorny parts.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Cheerful on October 06, 2021, 02:11:34 PM
Quote from: apl68 on October 06, 2021, 07:11:45 AM
A whole working day completely wasted, and I'm supposed to be the boss.

That's OK, apl68.  I know of no one who is 100% productive, 100% of the time.  Maybe be more gentle with yourself?  Everyone has an "off" day, even a whole off week, every so often.  Normal and human.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on October 08, 2021, 12:04:30 PM
It's a good reminder for all of us to be gentle with ourselves. I've had an "off" 57 years, but I'm cautiously optimistic about tomorrow.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on October 08, 2021, 12:26:31 PM
That's courage.

I hope you get it.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Charlotte on October 10, 2021, 06:37:58 PM
I am discouraged. It feels like I am being blocked at every turn as I try to do research, find a better job, and improve any area of my life. I feel that my value in this world has gone into the negative and that I am not worth the effort anymore.

Here goes another week of pretending to be worth something.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on October 10, 2021, 08:01:39 PM
Hi Charlotte, I think a lot of academics associate our value with our achievements (first grades, and then later grants, publications, awards, positions, prestige, etc.). But what if you are worth something simply by being you? I watched a video once when I was depressed (I'm sorry I can't remember the author or title); he talked about all the myriad ways we interact with the world around us without even paying attention, and how those people we don't even know would be different without us. I know it sounds a bit like "It's a Wonderful Life," but I remember crying when I thought about being worth something simply by existing. You are valuable.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on October 10, 2021, 08:21:14 PM
+1

Charlotte, I've made too many stupid and downright horrible mistakes to consider myself a smart man, but I do have some value. And so do you. As much as you can, try to put a team together--go-to friends, relatives, a therapist or an analyst--people who will listen to you and be there for you, whether it's because they love you or because it's their job to help you.

Also give yourself some pleasure or peace each day--whether it's breathing for a few minutes, some kind of exercise, a favorite food or something sweet (or all of those things, if you can fit them in). You can consider it a reward for showing up.

And if it helps to vent here... well, yeah, do that, too.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on October 25, 2021, 12:50:57 PM
My mother (late 70s) has been gradually getting forgetful in recent years.  While visiting with her late last week, I noticed that these senior moments have been reaching alarming levels.  She didn't recognize a pillow that she had set on a bed as something that she had put there.  And she suddenly no longer remembered what panini is.  Dad has expressed concern recently about her memory.  I now understand why.  I had always supposed, based on family history, that this would happen with Dad first.

Now I'm getting very worried about both of them.  Up to now they've been doing quite well.  But in the nature of things I'm going to watch them both die within the next few years. 
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on October 26, 2021, 08:45:11 AM
Hi apl68, It's really hard watching parents age. There is a caring for elderly parents thread that might have some coping advice, but it hasn't been very active lately. I don't know how easy it is for your parents to access health care, but it might be worth having your mom go in to see a doctor just to check her over and see if there's anything odd in bloodwork, etc.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: dr_codex on October 26, 2021, 05:03:39 PM
Quote from: apl68 on October 25, 2021, 12:50:57 PM
My mother (late 70s) has been gradually getting forgetful in recent years.  While visiting with her late last week, I noticed that these senior moments have been reaching alarming levels.  She didn't recognize a pillow that she had set on a bed as something that she had put there.  And she suddenly no longer remembered what panini is.  Dad has expressed concern recently about her memory.  I now understand why.  I had always supposed, based on family history, that this would happen with Dad first.

Now I'm getting very worried about both of them.  Up to now they've been doing quite well.  But in the nature of things I'm going to watch them both die within the next few years.

My mom is around the same age; my dad is almost a decade older. When we all started to notice his short-term memory gaps, mom took him for some cognitive testing. It won't stop or reverse anything, but it does provide some baselines for monitoring.

Coincidentally, my parents are visiting for the first time since COVID came into our lives. I've been so concerned about their physical mobility (ack! install a handrail!), that I haven't had much time to probe their mental acuity. That's probably a good sign.

I'm looking forward, and thinking back. My paternal grandmother had almost no memory when she died. She'd forgotten me for years, and by the end didn't recognize her sons. Her body made it into her 90s, thanks to a lot of care, but at the very end, almost all she responded to were hymns. (That's for you, Mlle.)

You never know how long folks will stick it out. One of my earliest memories is of my paternal great-grandmother's 100th birthday party. She may surprise you, yet.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Puget on October 26, 2021, 06:02:50 PM
Quote from: apl68 on October 25, 2021, 12:50:57 PM
My mother (late 70s) has been gradually getting forgetful in recent years.  While visiting with her late last week, I noticed that these senior moments have been reaching alarming levels.  She didn't recognize a pillow that she had set on a bed as something that she had put there.  And she suddenly no longer remembered what panini is.  Dad has expressed concern recently about her memory.  I now understand why.  I had always supposed, based on family history, that this would happen with Dad first.

Now I'm getting very worried about both of them.  Up to now they've been doing quite well.  But in the nature of things I'm going to watch them both die within the next few years.

I'm sorry, that's hard. Putting on my cognitive neuroscientist hat, you should get her a cognitive evaluation sooner rather than later. Memory lapses are usually the first thing noticed, but executive function (which supports abilities like decision making, risk assessment, planning, etc.) is usually actually the first thing to decline. There may already be things that aren't safe for her to do, like drive, manage money, or even cook unsupervised. It is better to know, before something bad happens. Even if the news is bad, there is also some relief in having concrete information instead of just worrying and wondering.

Also, from my mom's experience with my grandmother in her last years (mild progressing to moderate dementia, lots of other health problems), it was hugely helpful to have both a geriatrician and a geriatric social worker. The social worker in particular was hugely helpful in helping think through options and contingencies, identifying good long-term care places and other services, etc.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 20, 2022, 08:35:50 PM
I'm finding it very difficult to get motivated. I just want to veg out and play mindless puzzle games, well, maybe not entirely mindless. I've been procrastinating and still have work to post for tomorrow. I feel very overwhelmed at the moment.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on February 20, 2022, 08:44:01 PM
If its most helpful to know you're not alone, please know that.

If it's helpful to brainstorm strategies and responses, we're here for that, too.

You probably know the basics--figure out the bite-sized components, do them one-at-a-time, then assess, etc.

If it helps to have accountability for that, there's  a work-sprint thread you can post to.

I'll see if I can find it....

In any case, you're not alone.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on February 20, 2022, 08:46:57 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 20, 2022, 08:35:50 PM
I'm finding it very difficult to get motivated. I just want to veg out and play mindless puzzle games, well, maybe not entirely mindless. I've been procrastinating and still have work to post for tomorrow. I feel very overwhelmed at the moment.

Sympathize, epw. (Especially after reading about your two extra demanding students).

Sorry you're having a rough time.

Maestro and Caramelo mrrp their best wishes.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 20, 2022, 08:56:05 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 20, 2022, 08:46:57 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 20, 2022, 08:35:50 PM
I'm finding it very difficult to get motivated. I just want to veg out and play mindless puzzle games, well, maybe not entirely mindless. I've been procrastinating and still have work to post for tomorrow. I feel very overwhelmed at the moment.

Sympathize, epw. (Especially after reading about your two extra demanding students).

Sorry you're having a rough time.

Maestro and Caramelo mrrp their best wishes.

:) :) :)
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on February 21, 2022, 06:16:40 PM
Looking for something to say mostly to hear from people...

Feeling a bit disconnected and adrift.

Healthcare stuff moves slowly, and some days I'm tired of being patient with the pain and fatigue and lack of answers or a clear plan for someday possibly maybe not feeling so beaten down every day.

Getting things done in lab though, and that helps. I hate feeling useless even more than I hate feeling sick.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 21, 2022, 07:33:58 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 21, 2022, 06:16:40 PM
Looking for something to say mostly to hear from people...

Feeling a bit disconnected and adrift.

Healthcare stuff moves slowly, and some days I'm tired of being patient with the pain and fatigue and lack of answers or a clear plan for someday possibly maybe not feeling so beaten down every day.

Getting things done in lab though, and that helps. I hate feeling useless even more than I hate feeling sick.

I can empathize. I don't have any answers, though I'm not sure if you're looking for them. When I feel disconnected (and probably really anxious), I try the 5 senses grounding method. I also like to do lots of Math in my head. ;)

Just know that there are people out there who do care about you. It's rough, but you're not alone. Sounds cliché. I hope something that I wrote helps you.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on February 21, 2022, 09:58:50 PM
QuoteI'm finding it very difficult to get motivated. I just want to veg out and play mindless puzzle games, well, maybe not entirely mindless. I've been procrastinating and still have work to post for tomorrow. I feel very overwhelmed at the moment.

You dont have to be motivated Every Day!  In the last 10 days, I have been particularly busy (ie no real days off).,  I am looking forward to one in a few days, I hope!  (Test to give on Wednesday, meeting before that, another assignment due Wednesday night, so grading on Thursday for both assignments, meeting on Friday, annual evaluation from last year due soon (got some email about it today, but the got another email that the first didnt include ALL that needed to be done!!!))

Looking ahead, my 7 week online class only has 2 weeks left to run I think AND Spring Break is on the horizon! 

EPW, If you can hold out and stay strong and moving forward for a few more days, the weekend will be here, and if that is not enough, Spring Break is not far off!

Maybe just a night of debauchery for Fat Tuesday? (just a week away!)

Finally,... I dont know if this is a curse or just an observation.... In PhD school, the professor I worked for heard me complain about being behind, and he said, "Clean, As far behind as you think you are now, you will never be this caught up!"   He was right! 

The goal is just to try to keep from getting Too far behind!  But I have also found that Once you Give in to being behind, you can reorganize, drop the items that have expired, and try to reprioritize and keep up again!   

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on February 22, 2022, 11:44:21 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 21, 2022, 07:33:58 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 21, 2022, 06:16:40 PM
Looking for something to say mostly to hear from people...

Feeling a bit disconnected and adrift.

Healthcare stuff moves slowly, and some days I'm tired of being patient with the pain and fatigue and lack of answers or a clear plan for someday possibly maybe not feeling so beaten down every day.

Getting things done in lab though, and that helps. I hate feeling useless even more than I hate feeling sick.

I can empathize. I don't have any answers, though I'm not sure if you're looking for them. When I feel disconnected (and probably really anxious), I try the 5 senses grounding method. I also like to do lots of Math in my head. ;)

Just know that there are people out there who do care about you. It's rough, but you're not alone. Sounds cliché. I hope something that I wrote helps you.

Thanks, epw.

It does help quite a bit, and I appreciate it.

In the past I have used sensory grounding a lot, but in recent months it's been more difficult because pain makes me not want to feel too connected to my body.

It's difficult to sleep and eat, which further depletes my energy.

Some days I just feel a need to vent and say how sick and exhausted I feel, because it gets wearing having to maintain the mask of being "ok" day after day.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Anselm on February 22, 2022, 12:06:33 PM
(Disclaimer: I am not a physician but you all likely knew that anyhow.)

smallcleanrat,

When is the last time you had a nice vacation?   I personally have not a had a real day off in two years and it is draining me.  My breaks from school were consumed with caring for my mother.   It was only when I left the country for two weeks in 2017 when I realized how beneficial vacations are for the body and brain.   


There is an older post from last year about dealing with parents and memory loss.  I need to warn you folks that when we had our mother tested the appointment was set two months in the future.  Maybe this is not the case for everybody but I was not expecting that.   I first noticed my mother's memory issues in 2014.  As late as June of 2020 she drove a car and we likely should have stopped that beforehand.  By August she could not remember that her own husband was in the hospital and would ask about him repeatedly each day. 
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on February 22, 2022, 02:31:08 PM
Thinking of all who are tired, feeling blank, or weary.

With you.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: dr_evil on February 23, 2022, 02:28:16 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 20, 2022, 08:35:50 PM
I'm finding it very difficult to get motivated. I just want to veg out and play mindless puzzle games, well, maybe not entirely mindless. I've been procrastinating and still have work to post for tomorrow. I feel very overwhelmed at the moment.

Oh, I'm so there with you. I've been burnt out with work for some time and so I let some things go. Now I feel like I've figuratively fallen into a hole that I can't climb out of.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 23, 2022, 05:48:52 PM
Quote from: dr_evil on February 23, 2022, 02:28:16 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 20, 2022, 08:35:50 PM
I'm finding it very difficult to get motivated. I just want to veg out and play mindless puzzle games, well, maybe not entirely mindless. I've been procrastinating and still have work to post for tomorrow. I feel very overwhelmed at the moment.

Oh, I'm so there with you. I've been burnt out with work for some time and so I let some things go. Now I feel like I've figuratively fallen into a hole that I can't climb out of.

Sorry to hear it. I took a mental health day today and it really helped.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on February 24, 2022, 07:12:50 AM
I've been having a feeling, when work gets hectic and multiple things have to be left hanging in mid-air for a time, a sense of being trapped and wanting badly to just get away.  I'd planned to take tomorrow and Saturday off and go to a state park cabin for a personal prayer and study retreat.  Park accommodation has become so popular due to COVID that it has to be reserved weeks in advance.  I did so, then had to postpone for a month. 

Now I have my uncle's funeral to attend tomorrow.  I should be able to work it so that I can go from there to my park booking.  It means cutting short time spent with family, but I don't think I can postpone this again.  When it's done on Sunday, I plan to take an additional day off and swing by to visit family a bit more.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on February 24, 2022, 08:50:42 AM
Peace on your journey, and on your cabin stay.

Even though truncated, it sounds like a lovely, affordable idea.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on February 24, 2022, 09:14:50 AM
Quote from: mamselle on February 24, 2022, 08:50:42 AM
Peace on your journey, and on your cabin stay.

Even though truncated, it sounds like a lovely, affordable idea.

M.

But it's not happening.  Having had to move my reservation a month due to a controlled burn at the park (No sense taking a cabin on a mountain that's smoking like a volcano that weekend), I have now had it cancelled due to inclement weather.  It's nobody's fault, of course, but my plans for a getaway that I feel I really need have now been undone twice.  At this point I don't have the heart to try again.

Right after that, I had an online meeting to try to jump through the final hoop needed to collect our federal E-Rate reimbursement and found that it won't go through because the service provider--which has never provided good service in the first place--has failed to file the necessary paperwork on their end.  A year and a half of paperwork and e-mails and online meetings and trying to push past glitches and roadblocks has all now come to nothing.  I now regret ever having tried to file for E-Rate or ever hearing about that service provider.

I'll just attend tomorrow's funeral, and spend the weekend with family, and go back home and be ready for work like usual on Monday.  I guess I'll just have to keep feeling trapped for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on February 24, 2022, 10:41:54 AM
Very, very sorry this is all tumbling on you all at once.

Not fair, not kind, not right.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.......

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on March 02, 2022, 03:35:41 PM
Health in general has not been great for several months, but the last few days have been a bit extra.

Lost nearly 20 pounds over the last month or so without even trying because of very little appetite and difficulty forcing myself to eat.

Add low fuel to much difficulty sleeping and my mental processing abilities are really taking a hit.

Sorta, kinda related to the thread about the Columbia prof, but sorta, kinda not.

Typical manifestation of diminished mental function for me: keeping OCD brain in check.

Didn't want to post this on the other thread, because not trying to argue a point right now. Honestly having serious doubts about how well I'm processing language.

Just not able to see how 'he didn't say "freak", he said "freak of nature"' or 'but he called her "beautiful"' significantly diminishes what made the comment inappropriate.

But this is far from the first time I've been uncomfortable with something (including compliments directed towards me) which other people emphatically insist any idiot could see is absolutely fine.

I'm really thinking I just don't understand words and context and connotation as well as I probably should.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on March 02, 2022, 03:49:32 PM
Hi SCR, I'm not following the other thread any more, so cannot speak to that specific context. I can say, without any doubt in my mind, that you have demonstrated that you understand words, context and connotation in your various posts. You are processing language carefully. I am sorry to hear that you've been struggling more in the last few weeks. It is worrying that you're losing weight because you're having difficulty sleeping and eating. Are you able to make an appointment with a GP to check that your blood profile is OK?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on March 02, 2022, 05:28:20 PM
Second the observation that you are doing a very fine job of reading and understanding others' statements and expressing yourself.

I'd say the only thing you could do to improve is stop thinking it's your fault when others don't try as hard as you do to be clear and transparent--you are not responsible for making them see what they don't want to see, the issue is that they don't want to see it.

No amount of trying is going to change that.

From what you've said about family interactions, it seems to me you've internalized the voice of the obnoxious parent that says, "...OK, if you're the articulate one, you make me see reality if it matters so much to you, I'm just going to keep pontificating on my own soapbox if it pleases me," and you continue to try to be faithful to that image of yourself as the articulate one, forced into a defensive corner, when it's your very clear, very well-worded prophetic (i.e., truth-telling) observations that are only being misunderstood-on-purpose because the other person would really have to change if they admitted to understanding you and they're too insecure to do that.

Basically, it's a form of verbal gaslighting, it's really not you, it's them, and it seems to me you're wringing yourself dry trying to meet expectations you just shouldn't have to meet, or even put yourself under the burden of believing you should meet, to begin with.

One of my parents had an obnoxious side like that, which thankfully didn't come out all the time, but when it did, we mostly just put it down to his post WW II PTSD, and ignored him until he calmed down, which he usually did.

Engaging with him just made it worse--there was a learning curve for some of us (and a couple never did learn)--the silence sometimes made him actually listen to himself and hear the illogic in his statements, and stop making them (sometimes).

Which might be part of the answer I'm trying to convey. It's not you they need to listen to, it's themselves, and you can't get them to do that by answering. You have to let those issues go at some points.

But that's me, sending suggestions which may or may not help: finally, of course, it's up to you to figure it out.

Overall, focus on finding a center for your soul that feeds you and consoles you, and know that you're cared for and respected here.

Peace--M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on March 08, 2022, 04:56:05 PM
Thanks so much for your replies, Morden and mamselle.

mamselle, as usual, I really appreciate your wisdom and insight.

I took a small fora break to reset a bit.




In the meantime, passed my oral qualifying exam.

It was delayed a lot due to pandemic and personal health issues, but I finally got past it.

Committee seemed largely positive about my preliminary results and research plan, except for essentially telling me to cut the aims half because it was overly ambitious. But they also told me it's a common enough mistake and that having too many ideas was better than having too few.

Feeling weirdly more stressed after passing than before.

Don't know why.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on March 08, 2022, 05:12:12 PM
Celebrating big time, here!!!!!!

YEA!!!!!!

At the same time, yeah, the release of all that anxiety and work can have a post-partum kind of let-down associated with it.

Do something super-nice for yourself to celebrate, and then take some time to think about what worked, what you enjoyed about the process, what you didn't, and how you might do the same things, or different things, in the next step of your work upcoming.

Because some of that "down" feeling can often be the dread of, "Oh, joy, I've finished this one step, but that just means the next one is coming....!"

Do a couple of nice things for yourself, in fact.

Because you've done a lot of this while feeling very conflicted and uncertain about things, and you've met those thoughts and worries with courage and good sense.

All good thoughts.

M. 
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: doc700 on March 08, 2022, 05:14:58 PM
I think this is normal!  When you are preparing for the oral exam, you have a single focus, the exam.  Its stressful but there is a specific defined goal and a specific defined timeline.  Now that you pass you are back into the open ended part of graduate school that lacks that clearly defined goal.  Its also stressful to give a proposal--since then you have to do it! 

I try to have intermediate checkpoints for my group like regular conferences and group meeting talks that replicate at least a time of this structure (although ideally not the stress) of the oral exam.

Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 08, 2022, 04:56:05 PM
Feeling weirdly more stressed after passing than before.

Don't know why.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: arcturus on March 08, 2022, 05:48:18 PM
Congratulations, Small Clean Rat!!!!!! This is a major milestone. All the more impressive given the global and personal circumstances!

As others have said, it is normal to feel let down, and sometimes even more anxiety post-exam, than pre.  You will get through this too. Take some time to recognize your accomplishments. Then, put your head down, focus on the specific task at hand, and start working through those research plans one step at a time. You can do this!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Larimar on March 08, 2022, 05:54:18 PM
Congratulations, smallcleanrat!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Puget on March 08, 2022, 05:58:36 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 08, 2022, 04:56:05 PM
Thanks so much for your replies, Morden and mamselle.

mamselle, as usual, I really appreciate your wisdom and insight.

I took a small fora break to reset a bit.




In the meantime, passed my oral qualifying exam.

It was delayed a lot due to pandemic and personal health issues, but I finally got past it.

Committee seemed largely positive about my preliminary results and research plan, except for essentially telling me to cut the aims half because it was overly ambitious. But they also told me it's a common enough mistake and that having too many ideas was better than having too few.

Feeling weirdly more stressed after passing than before.

Don't know why.

Congrats! Take time to celebrate-- I'm always reminding my students to celebrate all the intermediate steps (e.g., submitting a paper, not just when one gets accepted etc.)-- tangible rewards are few and far between in research, so it is critical to celebrate the process along the way.

The over-ambitious part is normal too. A lot of my job as an advisor is to dial students back to something feasible. Save the rest for later-- not everything fits in one dissertation.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on March 09, 2022, 06:23:04 AM
Congratulations on getting through the exams!  And it sounds like you're committee is committed to helping you make your research what it needs to be.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Istiblennius on March 09, 2022, 08:28:50 AM
Congratulations, that is such a big accomplishment. Yay you!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on March 09, 2022, 08:38:09 AM
Yay!! SCR.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on March 09, 2022, 09:25:15 AM
Good for you!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on March 10, 2022, 06:55:20 PM
Thanks so much for the encouraging comments, everybody!

It helps to know that the post-exam stress is normal.

Quote from: mamselle on March 08, 2022, 05:12:12 PM
Because some of that "down" feeling can often be the dread of, "Oh, joy, I've finished this one step, but that just means the next one is coming....!"

Quote from: doc700 on March 08, 2022, 05:14:58 PM
Its also stressful to give a proposal--since then you have to do it! 

True. I think this does explain a lot of what I was feeling.

Puget, thanks for mentioning that overly ambitious planning from grad students is normal. I think that was another component to why I felt stressed; I worried that I showed poor judgment by proposing too much.

Feelings now are mixed. On the one hand, I'm trying not to dwell on any shame from not hitting this milestone sooner.

On the other, I'm feeling vaguely hopeful given that I was able to get through the exam during a time when I'm mostly being fueled by Ensure.

Diagnostic procedure is still a couple of weeks away. Doing best I can in the meantime to manage the eating difficulties. Having to push through persistent pain and physical weakness. Trying to force myself to get things done when I feel so feeble has led to some crushingly low moments.

The fact I still got through the exam gives me hope that if I can improve my health even somewhat, maybe I still have it in me to make something out of my life.

I really hope the docs can help me.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: dr_evil on March 14, 2022, 02:31:18 PM
A late congratulations, SCR!

Sorry, I haven't visited this thread for a bit. I've been doing too much procrastination with gaming and reading. I'm planning on working on it a bit this week. "To do" lists, here I come.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on March 14, 2022, 03:31:01 PM
Quote from: dr_evil on March 14, 2022, 02:31:18 PM
A late congratulations, SCR!

Sorry, I haven't visited this thread for a bit. I've been doing too much procrastination with gaming and reading. I'm planning on working on it a bit this week. "To do" lists, here I come.

Same. Sorry, I didn't say congrats, scr! :)
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on March 31, 2022, 08:52:02 AM
Belated congratulations to scr as well.

I've switched now from buspirone to lexapro. We'll see how that goes.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: paultuttle on April 01, 2022, 08:29:14 AM
Congratulations, smallcleanrat! Way to go!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Harlow2 on April 01, 2022, 09:34:40 PM
SCR, I'm adding my late but heartfelt congratulations as well, having been away for a bit. And yes, all of that is normal, as others have said.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on April 04, 2022, 09:34:08 AM
An article about the challenges of undergoing mental health crises as a faculty member:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/a-professor-resigned-during-a-mental-health-crisis-now-she-wants-her-job-back

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 04, 2022, 11:20:08 AM
I've been a little off lately. There's too much going on. Basically, I'll finish one project only to have another one pop up. I've also been pretty upset about my student who passed last year- it just doesn't seem real to me. I attended the service, but not the funeral. Maybe it will become more 'real' after I visit the grave.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Hegemony on April 05, 2022, 07:02:31 PM
I gritted my teeth and made it through the last two years okay, but I'm having a hard time now. Some of the factors:

• My department is being closed down — depressing in itself — and I'll be moving over to another department where the people are not extra friendly and where my field is not very welcome. I know, it least I still have a job, right? I'm finding it hard to feel the joy.

• The bureaucracy of this job is overwhelming. The university invents more every week. You know what I mean.

• As a Covid-vulnerable person with multiple risk factors, I'm depressed that it's now clear that "Covid is over!" and it's basically every man for himself from here on out. Regular people are back to partying hearty, in my region anyway, while I am still in isolation for the interminable future. I've seen one friend with my conditions die of Covid, and another has long Covid and is now disabled (not able to get out of bed most days). So I am not inclined to take risks, however much people urge me to "get back to living!" I have a child who depends on me; no risk-taking here. Just more isolation.

• I have a good friend in Ukraine.

• House, car, yard, and body have decided to fall apart in complicated and expensive ways.

Every day I have to keep myself from calling my job and saying, "Hi there, I'm quitting today!" That call is the fantasy, but actually I don't think I'd feel better after the call. I'd still sit here in an isolated funk, the world would still be a violent mess, the personal repairs would still be needed.

I also tried ice cream. It only helped for about three minutes.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Harlow2 on April 05, 2022, 07:50:21 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 05, 2022, 07:02:31 PM
I gritted my teeth and made it through the last two years okay, but I'm having a hard time now. Some of the factors:

• My department is being closed down — depressing in itself — and I'll be moving over to another department where the people are not extra friendly and where my field is not very welcome. I know, it least I still have a job, right? I'm finding it hard to feel the joy.

• The bureaucracy of this job is overwhelming. The university invents more every week. You know what I mean.

• As a Covid-vulnerable person with multiple risk factors, I'm depressed that it's now clear that "Covid is over!" and it's basically every man for himself from here on out. Regular people are back to partying hearty, in my region anyway, while I am still in isolation for the interminable future. I've seen one friend with my conditions die of Covid, and another has long Covid and is now disabled (not able to get out of bed most days). So I am not inclined to take risks, however much people urge me to "get back to living!" I have a child who depends on me; no risk-taking here. Just more isolation.

• I have a good friend in Ukraine.

• House, car, yard, and body have decided to fall apart in complicated and expensive ways.

Every day I have to keep myself from calling my job and saying, "Hi there, I'm quitting today!" That call is the fantasy, but actually I don't think I'd feel better after the call. I'd still sit here in an isolated funk, the world would still be a violent mess, the personal repairs would still be needed.

I also tried ice cream. It only helped for about three minutes.

I'm so sorry, Hegemony.  I've been through Bullet Point  Number 1 and am currently experiencing BP 2
Both at once would be awfully hard, especially with the other things you're experiencing. Hope you can find a substitute for ice cream that will last for at least an evening.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Cheerful on April 05, 2022, 08:09:48 PM
Sorry, Hegemony.  Hope it helped to type it out and share.  During times like this, I try to remember One Day at A Time and Things Won't Always Be This Way.  Pamper yourself.

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 05, 2022, 08:23:14 PM
So sorry to hear it, Hegemony. I agree with previous comments about pampering yourself and trying to find some kind of peace/serenity during this time.

We have experienced the house and car issues and have been dealing with them slowly. One expensive step at a time.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on April 05, 2022, 08:58:38 PM
Very, very sorry to hear of all that avalanche of nonsense barreling your way. This is when the super-springy pogo sticks that take you to the next clear mountain, with fresh air and spring weather and your own yurt would be helpful, it sounds like.

I echo the self-care wishes, and hope for you whatever you need and can find for yourself that will bring some measure of peace.

It may also be helpful--or it might not--to do something positive about the Ukrainian situation, at least.

Three of my private music students are from a family whose parents are both from Lviv. Their grandparents and cousins are all in the U.S., so close family are safe, but friends are still there, and their mom hasn't heard from one of her good friends in awhile, which is worrying.

So I'm also very aware (and angry, and frustrated, and furious, and...) about the situation.

I'm looking into donating air miles to the Red Cross (after all those trips, I have a lot), and friends have been volunteering, collecting materials for humanitarian groups to take over; there are several sites where one can indicate where contactless pick-up will be (porch, or whatever) and they'll come and get them.

I also share the concern for those who are just "done with Covid," whether or not it's done with us. It's baffling, really, how the expectations that one will just throw caution to the winds and endanger others in the process have grown up as some kind of libertarian virtue.

In all cases, I hope you find some nimble way to navigate these waters, well-centered as always, and that you find a peaceful shore upon landing.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Morden on April 06, 2022, 08:03:24 AM
I'm really sorry all of this is happening, Hegemony. And I have no specific advice, just best wishes. Morden.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: AvidReader on April 06, 2022, 09:02:50 AM
I also hope you feel better, Hegemony, and that you find something restorative to do for an evening or more. Stay safe.

AR.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Langue_doc on April 06, 2022, 09:08:26 AM
Sorry to hear about your travails, Hegemony, especially #1, 3, and 5.

Please take good care of yourself.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on April 06, 2022, 09:48:19 AM
Yes--stay as safe and well as you can.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 18, 2022, 09:13:42 AM
I am very seriously considering cutting certain abusive family members out of my life. They are manipulative, toxic, controlling, condescending and I always feel like shit for a few days after talking with them. If anyone has experience with cutting ties, I'd love to hear how it went for you.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on June 18, 2022, 09:53:54 AM
I've mostly just gone very silent, curbed any pseudo-enthusiastic responses that might have been otherwise expected,  and replied factually but without much elaboration, and only when asked pertinent questions.

I'm not on Facebook, use my semi-lapsing Twitter account only for work-related announcements,  and don't initiate more than a couple of Zoom calls that I host annually to do my bit without letting things run on for long.

Be seen as quietly genial, don't engage, do enough to seem interested, and don't wander deeply into the weeds with explanations about why you're not doing something.

Modeling polite restraint might not catch their direct attention, but if you determinedly fly under the radar, and give most outrageous statements a Bland.Smile, level 3,  without challenging them, they'll eventually leave you mostly alone.

You have to accept and live with the SPADFY thing, and the fact that some--or many--of those people are relatives who want to use you as a projection screen for their own angst.

For sanity's sake, just roll up the screen...

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: AmLitHist on June 18, 2022, 10:43:10 AM
Do it, EPW.  I did it with spouse's family (my MIL and SILs) about 25 years ago, and it's one of the best things I've done for my peace of mind.

We all live in the same small town, but beyond a very occasional passing in the grocery store aisle, I haven't dealt with any of them in that whole time. ALHS still checks on his mom and helps her out, which is fine with me, but she never did give him the crap she routinely gave me. Our youngest (31) has never gotten along with them, and the oldest (33) tries to check in on Grandma and be nice.  However, Grandma can zero in on anyone's weakest point (for Kid #1, these are mental illness and a TBI/CTE); it got ugly a few weeks ago, and I think (hope) she finally crossed the line and that Kid #1 has finally had her fill.

It probably sounds cruel, esp. since MIL is in her 90s, and also since I made the break when our girls were young, but I know it saved both of them a lot of the grief I took over the years, so I'm OK with it.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Langue_doc on June 19, 2022, 09:09:28 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 18, 2022, 09:13:42 AM
I am very seriously considering cutting certain abusive family members out of my life. They are manipulative, toxic, controlling, condescending and I always feel like shit for a few days after talking with them. If anyone has experience with cutting ties, I'd love to hear how it went for you.

EPW, I had to do this with a relative. After years of putting up with sh$t, and being blindsided whenever I answered the phone, I learned to (i) never pick up the phone, but instead call back after a day or two, (ii) refuse to engage by changing the subject ("Sorry to interrupt, relative, but I wanted to tell you X, Y, or Z before I forget..."), (iii) stay upbeat or neutral and stick to enquiring about people who live in the parts of the country and the world, (iv) end the conversation on a pleasant note if sticky topics or tone of voice enters the conversation ("Relative, I have to go now/there's someone at the door, nice catching up with you"). Relative had the gall to not inform me when her husband passed, but wait until after a month and the memorial service to let me know about the passing, and then tell me that Relative couldn't invite me because Relative couldn't host me. This was  during the year of the pandemic, so I told Relative that had Relative informed me or invited me I would not have visited or attended the service because I was following the social distancing policies that were in effect at the time.

Stay strong. Plan ahead so that if the conversation veers into dangerous territory, someone in your family can interrupt you, pretend that there's someone at the door, or have a timer (the loud ones with a knob) ready so that you have a good excuse to end the conversation. Think of other strategies so that you can pretend to have a relationship with these folks, yet are not sucked into their dysfunction. People don't change; it is your responsibility to protect yourself from other people's toxicity. Was it Maya Angelou who said something along the lines of "People treat you the way you teach them to treat you."?

Relative once told me that she was voting for a certain politician because of his strong moral values. I was dying to remind Relative of the politician's three marriages (Relative doesn't approve of divorce).
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 19, 2022, 10:32:12 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on June 19, 2022, 09:09:28 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 18, 2022, 09:13:42 AM
I am very seriously considering cutting certain abusive family members out of my life. They are manipulative, toxic, controlling, condescending and I always feel like shit for a few days after talking with them. If anyone has experience with cutting ties, I'd love to hear how it went for you.

EPW, I had to do this with a relative. After years of putting up with sh$t, and being blindsided whenever I answered the phone, I learned to (i) never pick up the phone, but instead call back after a day or two, (ii) refuse to engage by changing the subject ("Sorry to interrupt, relative, but I wanted to tell you X, Y, or Z before I forget..."), (iii) stay upbeat or neutral and stick to enquiring about people who live in the parts of the country and the world, (iv) end the conversation on a pleasant note if sticky topics or tone of voice enters the conversation ("Relative, I have to go now/there's someone at the door, nice catching up with you"). Relative had the gall to not inform me when her husband passed, but wait until after a month and the memorial service to let me know about the passing, and then tell me that Relative couldn't invite me because Relative couldn't host me. This was  during the year of the pandemic, so I told Relative that had Relative informed me or invited me I would not have visited or attended the service because I was following the social distancing policies that were in effect at the time.

Stay strong. Plan ahead so that if the conversation veers into dangerous territory, someone in your family can interrupt you, pretend that there's someone at the door, or have a timer (the loud ones with a knob) ready so that you have a good excuse to end the conversation. Think of other strategies so that you can pretend to have a relationship with these folks, yet are not sucked into their dysfunction. People don't change; it is your responsibility to protect yourself from other people's toxicity. Was it Maya Angelou who said something along the lines of "People treat you the way you teach them to treat you."?

Relative once told me that she was voting for a certain politician because of his strong moral values. I was dying to remind Relative of the politician's three marriages (Relative doesn't approve of divorce).

I'm sorry you dealt with that Langue_doc, it's really unsettling to interact with people like that.

Yes. Maya Angelou said something like that and I've been learning to implement it in my life. I started lying to them years ago (and I felt incredibly guilty for a long time). It makes it easier to escape when I can. They also tend to ignore me and just keep talking, which is tough because I was raised to 'obey' so it can be difficult to just hang up. Although, the last conversation ending with me hanging up on them because they were ranting/yelling/screaming at me because apparently I don't know how to do things for myself. It's just so emotionally overwhelming, paralyzing and it also really, really pisses me off.

There's a long backstory with these people and it's difficult because they've been in my life for all of my life. I told someone the other day that I could be in a Lifetime movie based on some of the crap that's happened. Unfortunately, I think they believe that they are doing the 'right' thing. It's like Jesus said 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do' and I think it's impossible for them to be able to know.

Thanks for listening to me. I know you all may not know me, but I appreciate your advice and I'm sorry to hear that some of you have dealt with people exhibiting similar behaviors.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on June 19, 2022, 12:54:22 PM
You can't change others, and you can't change situations.

You can only change how you respond to those others, and how you act in those situations.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Hegemony on June 20, 2022, 01:42:18 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 18, 2022, 09:13:42 AM
I am very seriously considering cutting certain abusive family members out of my life. They are manipulative, toxic, controlling, condescending and I always feel like shit for a few days after talking with them. If anyone has experience with cutting ties, I'd love to hear how it went for you.

The psychologist Harriet Lerner (author of the The Dance of Anger, etc.) has some useful observations about cutting people off. She observes that one of the problems of relationships with difficult people is the intensity of the relationship, and that cutting people off preserves that intensity; it just configures it a different way. She makes a good case for setting clear boundaries and keeping contact low (and suggests good strategies for doing so). It's a little more complex to set up than going entirely no-contact, but makes for less drama and less intensity in the long run. Of course that doesn't apply if there are threats of physical violence or any of that. But otherwise, I recommend looking at her books and seeing if they're helpful for your situation. They worked for me for a similar question.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 20, 2022, 07:14:17 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on June 20, 2022, 01:42:18 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 18, 2022, 09:13:42 AM
I am very seriously considering cutting certain abusive family members out of my life. They are manipulative, toxic, controlling, condescending and I always feel like shit for a few days after talking with them. If anyone has experience with cutting ties, I'd love to hear how it went for you.

The psychologist Harriet Lerner (author of the The Dance of Anger, etc.) has some useful observations about cutting people off. She observes that one of the problems of relationships with difficult people is the intensity of the relationship, and that cutting people off preserves that intensity; it just configures it a different way. She makes a good case for setting clear boundaries and keeping contact low (and suggests good strategies for doing so). It's a little more complex to set up than going entirely no-contact, but makes for less drama and less intensity in the long run. Of course that doesn't apply if there are threats of physical violence or any of that. But otherwise, I recommend looking at her books and seeing if they're helpful for your situation. They worked for me for a similar question.

Thanks Hegemony. There have been threats of violence in the past, but now, not so much.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on June 20, 2022, 09:27:03 AM
Agree...flouncing off and making overt statements about discontinuing the connections just stirs up the waters more.

Quiet walking-away, slipping further apart when they're not looking, and being calm sets a less exclamation-point-ridden tone.

You know your people and what will work, but if nothing else has worked, and especially if violent threats have come into the conversation, even awhile ago, it's time to disengage.

The peace of mind you create will be your own.

M. 
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 20, 2022, 10:19:47 AM
Quote from: mamselle on June 20, 2022, 09:27:03 AM
Agree...flouncing off and making overt statements about discontinuing the connections just stirs up the waters more.

Quiet walking-away, slipping further apart when they're not looking, and being calm sets a less exclamation-point-ridden tone.

You know your people and what will work, but if nothing else has worked, and especially if violent threats have come into the conversation, even awhile ago, it's time to disengage.

The peace of mind you create will be your own.

M.

Yep. I have slowly decreased the frequency of interaction with these people. I know that the shit will hit the fan if I go no contact and I haven't made any statements to that effect. Right now, I'm going to concentrate on maintaining boundaries and doing what is healthy for me. If I need to call the cops, then I will. I just hope it doesn't come to that.

I've always wanted to have a relationship with them that is healthy, but they don't want that. I think this desire to have the relationship that I can never have has kept me in contact with them and made certain interactions hellish.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on June 20, 2022, 10:42:58 AM
You could go the no-contact/contact route, by which I mean, send semi-mindless articles you see that they might like just every now and again ... those "cute kitty" level-feeds exist on several platforms, for example.

One of my family members still lives in 50s TV-land, so if I see a Mouseketeers article, or Gilligan's Island update, I'll send it with an innocuous, "remember when"? sort of note. I might get a whole long string of remembrances back, but they'll generally be about the show, nothing else, and usually end with, "why don't they have these anymore?" plahns, that I ignore, no answer really required.

They feel remembered, it only took me 2 min., I don't have to reply further, and we're good for a couple of months or more.

It's just one way, but it works for my situation.

Of course, YMMV.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Hegemony on June 20, 2022, 05:43:05 PM
Yes, de-escalation can be a big stress-saver. It sounds as if this might be the kind of situation that warrants a card at birthdays, a couple of forwarded innocuous memes or links a couple of times a year, and a promise to self not to be drawn into any in-person contact or drama.

One problem with going no-contact is that it's very obvious to the other party. And sometimes it's meant to be obvious, as one party says, "Well, for that I'm never speaking to you again!" And that's like a red flag to a bull. (I know bulls don't really respond to red; I'm using it as a figure of speech.) So the other person gets all outraged, escalates attempts to make the person see the error of their ways, drama ensues, other relatives are roped into the battlefield, and so on.

But easing down into very low contact can just let the wind out of the drama.

Again, not applicable to stalkers, etc.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on June 21, 2022, 07:31:20 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on June 20, 2022, 05:43:05 PM
Yes, de-escalation can be a big stress-saver. It sounds as if this might be the kind of situation that warrants a card at birthdays, a couple of forwarded innocuous memes or links a couple of times a year, and a promise to self not to be drawn into any in-person contact or drama.

One problem with going no-contact is that it's very obvious to the other party. And sometimes it's meant to be obvious, as one party says, "Well, for that I'm never speaking to you again!" And that's like a red flag to a bull. (I know bulls don't really respond to red; I'm using it as a figure of speech.) So the other person gets all outraged, escalates attempts to make the person see the error of their ways, drama ensues, other relatives are roped into the battlefield, and so on.

But easing down into very low contact can just let the wind out of the drama.

Again, not applicable to stalkers, etc.

Though I don't know the situation, it seems that in most situations this sort of de-escalation is better than full-on estrangement.  Estrangement is such an extreme and destructive option.  Surely it should be an absolute final resort when there is simply no other way.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on June 21, 2022, 10:08:09 AM
Yes, I'm sure I've said before, the most helpful thing a friend/neighbor/trained social worker said to me (in the more extreme case of an abusive former spouse) was, "OK, you have to decide how long you'll give this person to change.

"Don't tell them, but set a time limit, keep clarifying the situation, and if at the end of that time, the changes you need to see haven't happened, you have a new set of choices to make."

In that case, for safety and sanity's sake, it was a divorce, with former spouse still under a permanent restraining order.

That more surgical option was after three efforts to start couselling, each of which he broke off.

So, that's also a decision point, where there's physical as well as actual mental danger.

In cases where it's a constant acid drip of nonsense, you still do need time, space, and emotional distance for sanity's sake, and some of the other options, as outlined abovethread, are essential.

And it's important not to play "footsie," if you do decide that a full cut-off is necessary.

Former spouse and I attended the same high school. I do not attend alumni events or send little humblebraggy update notes to the Alumni news. In the past 40 years, there have been two really odd random run-ins at unexpected locations; I got out of sight and away as fast as possible.

As a result, I live a (mostly) calm, pleasant life, and I don't worry about stealth attacks and the like. (Thankfully, no children, so no need to stay connected for their sake, either.)

Maybe one has to go through one serious situation like that to clarify one's own standards or values, or sense of one's own value. I may forgive someone, but I don't have to trust them if they've shown themselves unrepentant and untrustworthy.

That's how spoiled children act.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: AmLitHist on June 30, 2022, 01:10:20 PM
Dealing with Kid #1 who's in a manic phase of her BPDII this week has me feeling like I've been repeatedly run over by a freight train. I try not to argue or offer advice or help, and just let her talk, and she gets extremely mean and nasty. I know it's not something she can control, so I can usually let it roll off me. Still, I'm not in a great place myself, between ongoing anxiety and other health problems. Today was over the top, and I'm expecting Round 2 of all hell breaking loose later today.  (For various reasons, including TBI/concussion history, she can't/won't medicate. Just not answering the phone isn't a great option, either, as I don't trust her not to kill herself in a fit of rage if she doesn't have someone to talk to. So cutting off contact isn't an option in this case, as I'd done with other warring family members.)

FML, as the kids say. I was hoping against hope that she'd stay leveled out at least long enough to let me heal, but nope.  Stress makes my A1C and my blood sugars stay up, and it also plays hell with inflammation and my recently-confirmed PV diagnosis.  So her mental health affects my physical health.

Not looking for advice or solutions (I'm pretty sure there aren't any). I just felt the need to write it down.

Here's hoping that others here are doing OK.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: downer on June 30, 2022, 01:26:37 PM
So sorry to hear you have so much you are dealing with, AmLitHist. That's a huge amount.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: mamselle on June 30, 2022, 02:24:53 PM
+ 1000.

Take care of yourself, be kind to yourself, even little things (while incapacitated) that reaffirm your value, your abilities, your stability.

M.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Langue_doc on June 30, 2022, 04:42:18 PM
Quote
Not looking for advice or solutions (I'm pretty sure there aren't any). I just felt the need to write it down.

Do take good care of yourself, ALH. Vent away, here and on the venting thread.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on July 01, 2022, 08:40:30 AM
Sorry to hear about this , ALH.  I've had some experience in dealing with a bipolar loved one, and wouldn't wish it on anybody.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: AmLitHist on July 01, 2022, 09:10:40 AM
Thanks everyone. Today is better (or at least, starting out that way, though I just got a call from her. She's still on a bit of a rant, but not as bad as yesterday, and I kept the call short).
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 02, 2022, 02:48:55 AM
ALH:

Echoing others. Take care of yourself. Yes, dealing with mentally ill family is difficult. Cut yourself slack and do lots of self care.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on January 05, 2023, 08:06:38 PM
Reviving this thread while processing a "most likely diagnosis" of PNES (psychogenic non-epileptic seizures; aka dissociative seizures). Essentially, I've recently had a neurologist inform me that the seizure-like episodes I've been experiencing for the past couple of years are probably psychosomatic in origin.

These episodes have gotten bad enough in recent months that my PI told me to "take a break" from lab to focus on getting them under control. I know he didn't mean it this way, but it feels like I've been rejected and kicked out. I don't want to take a break from lab; I want to live my life and do my work like everybody else. Now my work is on pause and I don't know when I'll be able to start up again.

I'm really struggling with self-loathing over developing yet another mental issue after putting so much effort into learning to manage all my other ones.

Does anyone here have experience dealing with psychosomatic issues like this?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Hegemony on January 06, 2023, 01:36:54 AM
I'm sorry this extra complication has transpired, smallcleanrat. That is, I suppose it's good news that you're not having epileptic seizures, but the news that you're having stress-induced seizures of any kind is not so fun either. It seems ironic that the news that you have stress should cause more stress.

I don't have any experience with PNES, but I do have experience with doctors telling me I have psychosomatic disorders which turned out to be actual physical non-psychosomatic-related disorders. They tested for all the heavy-duty stuff, and found none of it, and so concluded all my symptoms were psychosomatic. It turned out they were due to two separate "mild" (non-life-threatening) conditions, which aren't much on the specialists' radar because specialists mainly deal with the big stuff; and because the presence of two at once confused everybody.

But I don't mean to suggest your experience is being misdiagnosed. You are a better judge of that than any of us.

I know a lot of us have been under enormous stress these past few years. Some days I think, "Would it help if I just went crazy? Could I just flip my lid somehow and get a pass on adult life for a while? Just do the stuff I want to and not have to do any of the thousand things that are causing me enormous stress?" There doesn't seem to be a procedure for that. All I can say is that you're not alone in feeling like it would be better if it all just calmed down for a while and let us just have a comfy routine and the end of the stress.

I hope someone here will have some more useful experience for you. We're rooting for you.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Puget on January 06, 2023, 06:26:35 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on January 05, 2023, 08:06:38 PM
Reviving this thread while processing a "most likely diagnosis" of PNES (psychogenic non-epileptic seizures; aka dissociative seizures). Essentially, I've recently had a neurologist inform me that the seizure-like episodes I've been experiencing for the past couple of years are probably psychosomatic in origin.

These episodes have gotten bad enough in recent months that my PI told me to "take a break" from lab to focus on getting them under control. I know he didn't mean it this way, but it feels like I've been rejected and kicked out. I don't want to take a break from lab; I want to live my life and do my work like everybody else. Now my work is on pause and I don't know when I'll be able to start up again.

I'm really struggling with self-loathing over developing yet another mental issue after putting so much effort into learning to manage all my other ones.

Does anyone here have experience dealing with psychosomatic issues like this?

I'm glad to see you check in SCR, even if it is with tough stuff. I don't have personal experience to offer, but I'll offer my scientific perspective-- psychosomatic symptoms are no less "real" and no more your fault than "neurological" ones, and indeed I think that's a false dichotomy-- it's all your brain acting up, just in different ways. And non-epileptic is definitely better- no brain damage happening!

I hope you can also reframe taking a break from the lab not as rejection, but as just that, a recognition that right now your priority needs to be focusing on your health. I always tell my students that their health comes first and I mean it. Of course you want your life and work back, but sometimes getting there requires stepping away for a little while to take care of yourself.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on January 06, 2023, 07:38:51 AM
Quote from: Puget on January 06, 2023, 06:26:35 AM

I'm glad to see you check in SCR, even if it is with tough stuff. I don't have personal experience to offer, but I'll offer my scientific perspective-- psychosomatic symptoms are no less "real" and no more your fault than "neurological" ones, and indeed I think that's a false dichotomy-- it's all your brain acting up, just in different ways. And non-epileptic is definitely better- no brain damage happening!

I hope you can also reframe taking a break from the lab not as rejection, but as just that, a recognition that right now your priority needs to be focusing on your health. I always tell my students that their health comes first and I mean it. Of course you want your life and work back, but sometimes getting there requires stepping away for a little while to take care of yourself.

I have had psychosomatic symptoms in the form of anxiety attacks.  Had them on a fairly regular basis while I was married.  With hindsight, I have come to recognize that my wife engaged in fairly classic patterns of abuse, gaslighting, etc. for much of our marriage.  Eventually, when I got up the courage to try to talk to her about some things that needed to be said, she elected to abandon the marriage.  That led to a period of additional anxiety.  At one point I had to get a court order to keep her from accosting me at home or at work.  Once ties had been completely severed, and the domestic situation was well and truly over--we had no children and were able to make a very complete break in contact--the anxiety symptoms went away.  I still feel anxious about things now and then, but I haven't been having the chest-tightening-can't-draw-a-breath symptoms in the fourteen years since she left. 

I'm saying this to say that if something is causing psychosomatic stresses, the greatest source of relief, if at all possible, to the degree possible, is to get away from whatever is causing the stress.  So I would second Puget in saying that stepping away from the labs in order to get a handle on these issues sounds like a good idea.  Try not to feel guilty about it.  You have to do what you have to do.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Istiblennius on January 06, 2023, 11:34:25 AM
I'd like to add to those noting that a psychosomatic disorder is still a disorder. The connections between the gut microbiome and brain function as well as the ways in which genetics and epigenetics influence neurotransmitter function are significant. Don't hold it against yourself that you are human. 

I worked with a student who had a similar disorder a few years ago. The student was very open about the impact of their mental health on their physical health and vice versa. They benefited enormously from the assistance of a trained service dog. The dog was able to perceive the signs of elevated anxiety that preceded a seizure and could signal to the student so they could place themselves in a safer location (where they would not fall or be in a place to hit their head) and also alert to others to be aware and prepared for the seizure.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: the_geneticist on January 06, 2023, 04:47:50 PM
smallcleanrat, to echo what others have said, it's OK to hit "pause" for a while. 
Do you have a friend or family member you could stay with for a while?  Or someone who could come stay with you?  You'll feel less lost/disconnected if you have someone to check in on you.
Try and reframe this as an opportunity to "pause, rest, and reset".  You deserve time to heal.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on January 07, 2023, 02:19:49 PM
Thanks for the words of encouragement, everybody. It really does help.

Apl68, I'm sorry you had to go through such a difficult situation. Glad you were able to find some relief eventually.

What's bothering me is that I can't really point to specific excessive stressors in my current situation. With a new medication, my depressive symptoms improved and with my higher level of functioning I started making some real progress on my research (which was just the boost my flagging self-esteem needed). SO and I just completed a year of couples counseling, and communication and closeness between us have improved markedly. Cats are happy and healthy. All in all, life has been pretty decent.

But apparently, self-reporting a lack of stress and anxiety is fairly common with PNES, at least according to what I've read. It's hypothesized that difficulty recognizing and processing emotions is what contributes to people developing psychosomatic disorders in the first place. So, there's that.

The neurologist said she would try to get me some info on finding a therapist who has experience treating non-epileptic seizures.




Istiblennius, I would be curious to know more about the logistics of how things worked out with the student. My PI's concern is that we do not know have a concrete plan in place to maintain safety in the lab; I think this is a major reason he wants me to stay away for now. I usually get some warning symptoms beforehand, and have used these as signals to stop what I'm doing and lie down to prevent a fall. But there really is no place to go where I will not be in danger of hitting something. It's also disruptive to other people's work, because they do not feel comfortable leaving me unmonitored during a seizure, so someone has to stop what they're doing to keep an eye on me.

I need some type of plan to minimize disruption and stay safe in the lab, but I'm rather stuck as to what that plan would look like.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on January 07, 2023, 02:53:00 PM
I am so glad to see you post again. I am sorry to see that it is for an unhappy reason, but I hope that you can report back on he progress that you make in dealing with this as I am sure that you will make progress!

You can not fault your PI for making your health and safety the primary concern.  It is unfortunate that you do not yet have a plan worked out to ensure that you and the lab participants are safe, but perhaps that will be something that can be worked out while you are 'on pause'. 

In the meantime, (for my own selfish reasons, mind you) feel free to post any updates about your cats!  I miss hearing about them, and hopefully that distraction will help you too! 

Again, Welcome Back!  You have been missed!   I am glad that you are relatively well, and that other areas of your life are improving!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Puget on January 07, 2023, 03:58:17 PM
SCR, I'm so glad to hear that in other respects you are doing better! Also great that your neurologist can refer you to a specialist therapist.

Have you talked to the accessibility folks at your university about a plan/accommodations for safety in the lab? They may well have experience with others with seizures.

In the meantime, are there things you can work on that don't require you to be physically in the lab? Can you write up papers based on already collected data? Write a review article?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Istiblennius on January 09, 2023, 08:52:59 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on January 07, 2023, 02:19:49 PM
I would be curious to know more about the logistics of how things worked out with the student. My PI's concern is that we do not know have a concrete plan in place to maintain safety in the lab; I think this is a major reason he wants me to stay away for now.

I need some type of plan to minimize disruption and stay safe in the lab, but I'm rather stuck as to what that plan would look like.

With my student, this was a collaborative process between the student, our disability support office, and myself. We had to determine reasonable accommodations and then make sure everyone was aware of those. With service dogs, there is sometimes pushback around lab settings, I know, but it is possible to train and have a service dog in a lab setting.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00190-0

I wonder if since your PI's main concern seems to be a disruption to the work of others or that you are unable to work alone in the lab safely, even having a non-lab personnel attendant would help you. Similar to how we have interpreters work with our students who are deaf. That person does not work for or in the lab, but is rather there to support the student.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on January 12, 2023, 11:19:55 AM
Quote from: Puget on January 07, 2023, 03:58:17 PM
Have you talked to the accessibility folks at your university about a plan/accommodations for safety in the lab? They may well have experience with others with seizures.

I've had a few back-and-forth communications with the accessibility office this week. Mostly information gathering, no plan or accommodations so far, but I'm hopeful that something can be worked out soon.

Istilbennius, thanks for sharing further about the process with your student.

Have also met with my psychiatrist to talk about how meds adjustments might contribute to reducing seizure frequency.

Quote from: Puget on January 07, 2023, 03:58:17 PM
In the meantime, are there things you can work on that don't require you to be physically in the lab? Can you write up papers based on already collected data? Write a review article?

Definitely! The time away from lab doesn't have to be unproductive. Thanks for reminding me of that.

I've also been resting a lot, trying to recharge my batteries. I'm pretty sure fatigue is a major trigger for me, and if I can manage my energy levels better maybe I will make myself less vulnerable to the seizures.

I'm still waiting for the neurologist to get back to me about finding a therapist.

Quote from: clean on January 07, 2023, 02:53:00 PM
I am so glad to see you post again. I am sorry to see that it is for an unhappy reason, but I hope that you can report back on he progress that you make in dealing with this as I am sure that you will make progress!

You can not fault your PI for making your health and safety the primary concern.  It is unfortunate that you do not yet have a plan worked out to ensure that you and the lab participants are safe, but perhaps that will be something that can be worked out while you are 'on pause'. 

In the meantime, (for my own selfish reasons, mind you) feel free to post any updates about your cats!  I miss hearing about them, and hopefully that distraction will help you too! 

Again, Welcome Back!  You have been missed!   I am glad that you are relatively well, and that other areas of your life are improving!

clean, thank you so much for your kind message! It made me feel good to be posting again.

And I will definitely rejoin the cat thread to share the exploits of my two critters.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on January 12, 2023, 11:40:54 AM
It sounds like you're taking a good variety of useful, constructive steps, smallcleanrat.  I hope that the accommodations office can be of help.  Some good rest will definitely be helpful.

Wishing you the best as you continue to deal with this, smallcleanrat, and you are in my prayers.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on January 13, 2023, 09:15:50 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 12, 2023, 11:40:54 AM
It sounds like you're taking a good variety of useful, constructive steps, smallcleanrat.  I hope that the accommodations office can be of help.  Some good rest will definitely be helpful.

Wishing you the best as you continue to deal with this, smallcleanrat, and you are in my prayers.

Thank you!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on January 16, 2023, 11:35:37 AM
Does anyone here have advice on how to deal with the anxiety of not being taken seriously by medical professionals?

I was already running into this issue before the prospect of being diagnosed with PNES, because my records show a significant history of psychiatric issues. Practically any problem I had could be attributed to stress, anxiety, or depression. There have often been heavy hints through wording, tone or body language that I was wasting people's precious time by seeking medical help for what amounts to nothing more than my inability to manage my own life.

I've been reading up on PNES (combination of academic texts/journal articles and books/articles for a general audience), and some of the stories and information I come across makes me scared to ever encounter a medical professional again, especially with my neurologist on record saying they heavily suspect a PNES diagnosis for me.

Apparently, there is a significant percentage of medical workers (EMTs, nurses, doctors) who equate 'psychogenic' with 'deliberately faked for attention (or drugs)' and view patients with this issue as a waste of time and resources. The older term for PNES was "pseudoseizures", and there's been pushback in the medical community to stop use of the term precisely because of the harm the "fake" connotation can cause for patients, but it's still a frequently used term. (An even older term is "hysterical seizures"; egad). I've watched more than one webinar in which doctors lecture to other doctors to please stop rolling their eyes and talking about such patients with contempt, indicating this type of behavior is common.

I had already been trying to convince my labmates and PI to stop calling paramedics when I have an episode, and now that I've read about some of the humiliating EMT/hospital experiences other people with PNES (and even people with actual epilepsy whose seizures have less typical presentations) have had, I'm doubly desperate to avoid it all.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Langue_doc on January 16, 2023, 11:41:57 AM
Here's the link to the NYT article on medical gaslighting. Do read the comments as well I recall finding them interesting as well as educational.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/28/well/live/gaslighting-doctors-patients-health.html?searchResultPosition=1
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Funastrum on January 17, 2023, 06:50:35 AM
On Gaslighting, I was convinced I was sick.  Various Doctors said no.  My insurance allowed me to go to a specialist without a referral.  I went to a medical school affiliated neurologist whose online ratings said she was mean but highly competent.  I waited 6 months for an appointment and drove kind of far to get to her.  She sent me for tests and diagnosed me within a few weeks (and was kind of mean about it).  I had major surgery (off work for months), better care, and have felt healthier afterward.

The weird part is that I have always felt a little like a hypochondriac but somehow this problem did not seem that way.  My PCP suggested therapy to resolve my symptoms.  Even weirder, I have kept him as my PCP.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on January 18, 2023, 03:01:58 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 16, 2023, 11:41:57 AM
Here's the link to the NYT article on medical gaslighting. Do read the comments as well I recall finding them interesting as well as educational.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/28/well/live/gaslighting-doctors-patients-health.html?searchResultPosition=1

Thanks for the link. I know it's not reasonable to expect perfection from the healthcare system, but stories about missed diagnoses like the ones described in the article and comments are so concerning. And I know it's important to self-advocate, but with some people this might backfire and get you written off as a "difficult" patient.

I get anxiety about medical appointments, not from fear of being poked and prodded, but fear of being talked over and dismissed.

Quote from: Funastrum on January 17, 2023, 06:50:35 AM
On Gaslighting, I was convinced I was sick.  Various Doctors said no.  My insurance allowed me to go to a specialist without a referral.  I went to a medical school affiliated neurologist whose online ratings said she was mean but highly competent.  I waited 6 months for an appointment and drove kind of far to get to her.  She sent me for tests and diagnosed me within a few weeks (and was kind of mean about it).  I had major surgery (off work for months), better care, and have felt healthier afterward.

The weird part is that I have always felt a little like a hypochondriac but somehow this problem did not seem that way.  My PCP suggested therapy to resolve my symptoms.  Even weirder, I have kept him as my PCP.

Glad you were able to find a competent doctor in the end. Sorry that it took seeing multiple doctors before you got real help.




I might be in a somewhat different predicament, given that my problem might actually be 'all in my head'. So the concern is it might be dismissed as not a "real" problem or, worse, a consciously faked problem. I've not only read accounts from patients. I've read accounts from physicians/nurses/EMTs saying that, even though they know intellectually that psychosomatic issues are not the patient's fault, they have to consciously battle against knee-jerk irritation and impatience because part of them still feels that the patient can simply choose to stop having symptoms, and suspects malingering, attention-seeking or hypochondria.

What scares me most are potential EMT encounters. With a scheduled medical appointment, I can prepare and brace myself. With an emergency response encounter, I'm either just coming out of or still experiencing an episode, and in a really vulnerable state. It can take me a little while to recover from disorientation and to regain the ability to control my body and speak. I've already had experiences of being spoken to brusquely or mockingly, and of getting bruised from being handled roughly. I worry it's just going to get worse with an explicit diagnosis of psychogenic seizures.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Funastrum on January 19, 2023, 12:58:15 PM
I advise going to a completely different doctor and trying again.  Maybe try telehealth. 

FWIW I also do poorly at doctors' offices.  Sometimes my blood pressure goes so high that it makes them anxious or they talk about sending me to the hospital.  I now have to tell them that I get white coat syndrome and to wait a minute and try the other arm before they worry too much.  Dogs and I share a fear of all things medical.   

I used to ask if I was going to explode like that Monte Python movie but they have no sense of humor that I can detect. 
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on January 28, 2023, 11:04:17 AM
When something happens that makes you feel embarrassed or guilty, how do you find the balance between 1) mentally examining events with the constructive (?) aim of damage control/future prevention and 2) fruitless ruminating and beating yourself up for something you can't go back and undo?

For the past week or so, my PI gave permission for me to try working half-days at the lab with the understanding that I would 1) stay home entirely if I didn't feel well or 2) go home early enough that fatigue doesn't set in and trigger a seizing episode. Yesterday morning I felt fine, so I went in. By noon-ish, I was feeling less fine and not all that steady to go grab the bus, so I stuck around hoping that resting a bit would get me to feeling better to make the trip home. I ended up having a seizure, with my PI sitting with me until it was over to make sure I was ok. He stayed with me until I was recovered enough to get up and head home.

It's always embarrassing when something like this happens, but this time I feel especially bad for wasting someone's time and stressing him out. Because I was supposed to be responsible for pacing and timing myself so that I could avoid episodes happening at lab. I'm not really sure what triggered it this time, so I need to think about whether there was still something I could have done to prevent it without falling into the black hole of shame, because that just feeds more negative thoughts and helps no one.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Hegemony on January 28, 2023, 08:24:56 PM
It makes sense that you wouldn't have 100% certainty about exactly what conditions, for how long, would be too much for your system. It makes sense that you would venture out and cautiously test the conditions, which is exactly what you did. Staying home 24/7/52 might protect you from seizures, but it wouldn't do you any good nor let you know where the exhaustion line sets in. You need to get a feel for it. The only way is to try it out some and get more data. That's just what you did.

It's exactly like a scientific experiment — in fact it is a scientific experiment. You would never decide not to run any experiments because one of them might fail at some point. If you're not failing at some points, you're too cautious.

Your ultimate goal is to understand how to manage your condition. Now you have more data.

As for the idea that you "wasted someone's time," I think that's part of the Great American Lone Cowboy mythos — that we must never rely on others for anything. The studies actually find that Americans (not all people of all other nations! not at all) feel more stressed when they get help than when they give help. That's because there's an unspoken law that we must never receive help that we cannot reciprocate. So when someone is ill and neighbors bring around chicken soup, the American is doing a secret subconscious calculation: "How can I pay my neighbor back somehow so I don't owe a favor? Oh my God, I have to make sure to pay them back, or I am in debt!" We're thrown into a tizzy by being the recipients of help.

Reflect that your colleague who helped is now feeling on the bonus side of the ledger and is buoyed up by having helped. He is feeling useful and un-owed. In American terms, you did him a favor. 

I hope you won't see any future over-exhaustion episodes as "failures," but as further data points. Just as someone who is insulin-dependent needs to get the hang of their diet and having the right food handy and all that, you need to experiment and do course correction to get the hang of the whole thing. No shame there. Good science behavior!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on January 29, 2023, 03:03:05 PM
I think that you learned something.
You were able to be at work X hours before a seizure.
Set a timer for X hours MINUS the time it takes to close down and get home. 
Tell them your plan, and as soon as they are ready to let you implement the plan do so. 
Confirm that it works.  Make notes each day at the end to indicate how you are feeling and how much longer you think you could have gone. 

After you have been successful with your plan and reviewed your notes, get permission to extend your work by 1/3rd or so of your estimated time.  try that for a while, and then get permission to extend some more.
IF you have a seizure during any of that time, return to the prior known 'good time' and work that another several weeks. 

Im sorry that you worked beyond your limit, but you learned something, and learning isnt always free from 'pain' (or whatever).  Look for the upside, the gain in knowledge, not the downside. 
Then use the knowledge to improve the situation.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on January 30, 2023, 10:15:45 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on January 28, 2023, 11:04:17 AM
When something happens that makes you feel embarrassed or guilty, how do you find the balance between 1) mentally examining events with the constructive (?) aim of damage control/future prevention and 2) fruitless ruminating and beating yourself up for something you can't go back and undo?

For the past week or so, my PI gave permission for me to try working half-days at the lab with the understanding that I would 1) stay home entirely if I didn't feel well or 2) go home early enough that fatigue doesn't set in and trigger a seizing episode. Yesterday morning I felt fine, so I went in. By noon-ish, I was feeling less fine and not all that steady to go grab the bus, so I stuck around hoping that resting a bit would get me to feeling better to make the trip home. I ended up having a seizure, with my PI sitting with me until it was over to make sure I was ok. He stayed with me until I was recovered enough to get up and head home.

It's always embarrassing when something like this happens, but this time I feel especially bad for wasting someone's time and stressing him out. Because I was supposed to be responsible for pacing and timing myself so that I could avoid episodes happening at lab. I'm not really sure what triggered it this time, so I need to think about whether there was still something I could have done to prevent it without falling into the black hole of shame, because that just feeds more negative thoughts and helps no one.

Well, sometimes we overestimate what we can handle on a given day.  Last week, I struggled for much of the week with...something that was compromising my ability to do my job.  I've had earaches off and on for most of my life, and have had several bouts with them in recent months.  Monday the pain in my ears and head was bad enough that I couldn't do my work effectively.  I spent half the day stressing out about my inability to think or focus on the assorted things I had to do.  Finally I took the latter half of the day off.  I treated my ears with ibuprofen and soothing heat on the ears, and felt better.

During the night I woke up with my ears and head bothering me again.  I got up, took more ibuprofen, and warmed my ears again until I felt better.  Then I went to bed again, dozed off, and woke up again with the worst nightmare I've had in a long, long time.  I think I was actually trembling violently before I woke up.  It was a stress reaction to my chronic worries over chronic, expensive HVAC system problems at work.  I felt too wiped out to go into work at all that day.  The next day I had no choice about going in, since there was payroll and bill paying and other urgent work to do.  I spent half a day doing that, felt exhausted (But not in pain, at least), and went home for the rest of the day.  I even took a COVID test for fear that my fatigue might be an odd manifestation of that, and tested negative.  Thursday I went in for a regularly-scheduled short day.  Friday I was finally able to work a full day and get some serious work done on my backlog of work.

I'm saying all this to say that we all go through periods where we can't handle everything we need to do at work, due to a combination of physical and mental stress issues.  Your problems may be more acute than they are for many people, but they're not fundamentally unusual.  You don't need to be ashamed of them.  As clean pointed out above, you're learning right now how much you can handle.  Which means you're going to run into your limits.  We all have to accept that sometimes our limits aren't what we wish they were, yet we have to abide by them in order to rest up and try to come back more effective.  I had to remember that lesson at work last week.  It sounds like you're having to do something similar.  It's okay to have limits.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on January 31, 2023, 07:05:08 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on January 28, 2023, 08:24:56 PM
As for the idea that you "wasted someone's time," I think that's part of the Great American Lone Cowboy mythos — that we must never rely on others for anything. The studies actually find that Americans (not all people of all other nations! not at all) feel more stressed when they get help than when they give help. That's because there's an unspoken law that we must never receive help that we cannot reciprocate. So when someone is ill and neighbors bring around chicken soup, the American is doing a secret subconscious calculation: "How can I pay my neighbor back somehow so I don't owe a favor? Oh my God, I have to make sure to pay them back, or I am in debt!" We're thrown into a tizzy by being the recipients of help.

Reflect that your colleague who helped is now feeling on the bonus side of the ledger and is buoyed up by having helped. He is feeling useful and un-owed. In American terms, you did him a favor. 

That's interesting; definitely a different perspective for me to think about. I have noticed I feel especially pressured (by myself and no one else) to do more work after I've had an episode, because I feel a need to 'make up for' the time and trouble it causes.

I really appreciate the way you frame learning to manage my issues as an experiment. You're right; better to think of these incidents as data than as failures.

Quote from: clean on January 29, 2023, 03:03:05 PM
I think that you learned something.
You were able to be at work X hours before a seizure.
Set a timer for X hours MINUS the time it takes to close down and get home. 
Tell them your plan, and as soon as they are ready to let you implement the plan do so. 
Confirm that it works.  Make notes each day at the end to indicate how you are feeling and how much longer you think you could have gone. 

After you have been successful with your plan and reviewed your notes, get permission to extend your work by 1/3rd or so of your estimated time.  try that for a while, and then get permission to extend some more.
IF you have a seizure during any of that time, return to the prior known 'good time' and work that another several weeks. 

Im sorry that you worked beyond your limit, but you learned something, and learning isnt always free from 'pain' (or whatever).  Look for the upside, the gain in knowledge, not the downside. 
Then use the knowledge to improve the situation.

That's a very practical approach, and I plan to implement it. Started a fresh notebook today to serve as a logbook. Thanks, clean!

Apl68, thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. It does make me feel less alone and less down on myself.




With this latest episode, I didn't notice feeling especially fatigued. I suppose that can mean either 1) I need to pay more attention to my body's signals or 2) there are other triggers/contributing factors that I need to identify. I guess I'll just have to keep reminding myself to do regular self check-ins and use the logbook to try to spot patterns.

I'm working my way through a book called Taking Control of Your Seizures that walks you through things like self-awareness exercises and relevant journaling techniques. It's meant to be used with a trained therapist, but since I have no idea how long it might take me to find one, I decided to see how much progress I could make on my own.

Small victory yesterday. My slogan for the new year is "Avoid avoidance." For me, this includes pushing past my anxious aversion to dealing with doctor's offices. So far, I haven't gotten much medical guidance about how to manage this disorder, so I went to the neurologist's in person and talked to reception. I didn't leave until they said they would talk to the doctor and be in touch later this week with some info about treatment options.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: AvidReader on February 03, 2023, 01:53:07 PM
I am in no way a medical professional, but this is the part of your post that jumps out at me:

Quote from: smallcleanrat on January 28, 2023, 11:04:17 AM
Yesterday morning I felt fine, so I went in. By noon-ish, I was feeling less fine and not all that steady to go grab the bus, so I stuck around hoping that resting a bit would get me to feeling better to make the trip home. I ended up having a seizure, with my PI sitting with me until it was over to make sure I was ok. He stayed with me until I was recovered enough to get up and head home.

Is there a quiet place you could go to rest if you realize that you are getting tired but don't feel steady enough to manage the bus, assuming it's safe for you to be alone? For instance, I know many institutions provide private spaces for breastfeeding mothers (I also know these vary dramatically in quality). Maybe you just need a cot or a couch or a big comfy chair in a dark room, maybe with someone to check on you every 15-30 minutes (or not) so that you can rest enough to get home safely.

AR.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on February 04, 2023, 04:45:30 PM
In the Venting Thread SCR reports:
QuoteI've got COVID.

Any idea how long you may have had it?
Could this have contributed to your recent issue?

for what it is worth, I tested positive for 3 full weeks this summer!  I was sick for about 10 days, and cranky/grumpy for many more! 

(Not to derail the thread, but My Bride was away, helping her parents with a cancer fight when I was diagnosed so she stayed away since if she came home she could not return to her parents' house.   She accused me of Not Missing her enough, and of having too much fun without her.  I had to promise to have "less unauthorized fun" ...  but  I assured her that she was safer being away, and as I know I was extra grumpy, It was MUCH cheaper for her to be away, as I know that it would cost me a fortune to make up to her for anything I might have done while estra grumpy....
AND I think that she was REALLY afraid that after 1 1/2 years of marriage that ALLL of the Hard work and Training she had invested in me was going to waste as she was SURE I was returning to "My Feral Ways"  (my words)...  (like not picking up my clothes and putting them in the hamper EVERY TIME, not washing dishes or even putting my dishes in the sink EVERY TIME, ... scratching anything that itched, and venting gas build ups ANYTIME, anywhere, throwing tissues NEAR the trash can and not putting them IN the can....  ... Do You Remember the Freedom of Being Feral?  ...  She didnt Want ME to remember it-- still doesnt!!!) 
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on February 05, 2023, 08:29:35 PM
Well, clean, now I'm curious. Did you revert to your "Feral Ways?"

I don't think the COVID is related to the other issues. Looks like SO brought the virus back with him when coming home from a business trip a week ago. We're both sick (him first, by a few days) and we're both positive.

Quote from: AvidReader on February 03, 2023, 01:53:07 PM
Is there a quiet place you could go to rest if you realize that you are getting tired but don't feel steady enough to manage the bus, assuming it's safe for you to be alone? For instance, I know many institutions provide private spaces for breastfeeding mothers (I also know these vary dramatically in quality). Maybe you just need a cot or a couch or a big comfy chair in a dark room, maybe with someone to check on you every 15-30 minutes (or not) so that you can rest enough to get home safely.

AR.

There is a conference room near the lab that is unused for most of the day. I did actually duck in there when I was feeling poorly this most recent time. I had to get the key from my PI, so he knew where I was going and why. When he came to check on me after about half an hour, I was mid-seizure. He got me into recovery position.

I do think the conference room was a better place to have an incident than in the lab: the floor is carpeted and there is enough space I can avoid hitting walls or furniture.

I talked to my PI about using the room as a resting spot in the future, but he is reluctant to have me be alone when I am not feeling well. Right now, I think our best compromise is a yoga mat under my desk. If I need to lie down, I can curl up there, but I will still be around others who can step in to help if I have a seizure. It's more conspicuous and embarrassing that way, but I understand he feels the need for more caution for safety and liability reasons.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: AvidReader on February 07, 2023, 10:45:37 AM
I hope you find a safe place that is comfortable while you practice the scientific method on yourself, SCR. I'm glad your PI is focused on your safety, but I'm so sorry the current compromise feels conspicuous and embarrassing. I hope you figure out your lab tolerance / stressers / whatnot with minimal embarrassment. 

AR.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on February 09, 2023, 08:42:20 PM
QuoteWell, clean, now I'm curious. Did you revert to your "Feral Ways?"

I dont think that I went Feral in the summer of Covid.  I was also teaching 2 online classes, even when sick. 

However, she was gone for 10 day recently and I could feel myself 'tugging at the leash!' 

When I was single, I could take care of myself.  I was quite successful living on my own for like 30 some years!  But with just over 2 years of 'domestication' I find that I am out of the habit. 
For instance, I used to do my own laundry and all was well.  But in the last 2 years, it is now a task she has relieved from me.  And while she was gone, I realized that my underwear drawer was looking a little empty... we were down to the underwear I am not supposed to wear (in case I get in an accident and she has to explain why I was in the hospital wearing THOSE!) .   
But I noticed that I found my underwear in a pile on the floor of the bathroom!  (Now that I am 'domesticated' I m trained to pick up my clothes and put them in the dirty clothes basket.  I know that, but I was rebelling against the leash, and enjoying the FREEDOM of leaving my clothes in the bathroom (until the day before she was due to come home, anyway!!)

So that is the limit of my reversion to feral ways! 
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on February 18, 2023, 01:34:31 PM
Recently saw a new doctor whose opinion after looking at my history and lab test results was, "I don't think your seizures are psychogenic at all. I think you're having actual seizures because [explanation I didn't fully follow]." This is right at the time I've finally got some info for therapists who treat psychosomatic issues.

I thought I was moving forward with figuring this stuff out. Now I'm not sure anymore.

I really wish I had clearer answers.




I've been experiencing a lot of anxiety lately due to thinking about the future.

I'm at a stage in my life where I suppose that's pretty normal:
1) my program expects me to defend my thesis this year; my PI thinks I've done enough experimental work at this point to make this realistic; that's a big milestone to prep for
2) impending end of grad school means I need to think more seriously about next steps career-wise; I have so many doubts about what I'm actually capable of and qualified to pursue
3) not knowing yet what I'm going to be doing after grad school means not knowing where we're going to be living a year from now
4) SO and I are taking steps towards starting a family; is anyone ever fully ready for that?

I've noticed my fears are greatly magnified on the days I'm not feeling well. Days when I have energy, am not nauseated or in pain, and am not having seizures, I think, "It'll be ok. I can do this." Days when I'm struggling are days I feel hopeless, wondering how I can possibly keep a career going or raise a family if my level of functioning can sink so low. I don't know how to plan for the future when my abilities are so inconsistent.

I guess one of the issues is not knowing when it's best to see something as a challenge to be overcome or as a limitation to accept and pragmatically plan around. Do I make plans with the assumption that I'll find my way around the obstacles somehow, or do I use current difficulties to identify some futures as unrealistic and a waste of time and energy to pursue?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Liquidambar on February 18, 2023, 10:04:45 PM
I don't have any advice, SCR, but your concerns about the future are completely normal.  So far 100% of my female grad students have ended up crying in my office at your stage in grad school.  It's a stressful time.

Regarding the seizures, can you simultaneously pursue both avenues (therapy and medical treatments)?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Juvenal on February 20, 2023, 12:02:39 PM
Is "existential angst" right there with "clinical depression"?  My PCP has said that (not much works!) maybe I should see a psychiatrist with fuller access to drugs; my psychology therapist is not so sure.  I function, but it's gloomy work.  Maybe "retirement" was not the best plan. But beyond anything else in necessary prospect.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on February 26, 2023, 06:30:06 PM
Quote from: Liquidambar on February 18, 2023, 10:04:45 PM
I don't have any advice, SCR, but your concerns about the future are completely normal.  So far 100% of my female grad students have ended up crying in my office at your stage in grad school.  It's a stressful time.

Regarding the seizures, can you simultaneously pursue both avenues (therapy and medical treatments)?

It helps to know the stress is normal. Although I hope it doesn't come to me crying in my PI's office.

I've decided to deal with this by essentially shutting down thoughts about anything besides 1) getting healthy and 2) doing what I need to do to graduate. All other worries can wait their turn while I focus on these two things.

For #1 I am doing as you suggest and pursuing both therapy and medical treatments. I really need to get both mind and body under better control. I had several seizures this past week and I've been feeling quite exhausted and discouraged as a result. And I'm pretty sure the reason I had so many in a short time is due to me stressing too much over #2. I need to break out of the feedback loop: stress leads to seizures which lead to more stress.

Quote from: Juvenal on February 20, 2023, 12:02:39 PM
Is "existential angst" right there with "clinical depression"?  My PCP has said that (not much works!) maybe I should see a psychiatrist with fuller access to drugs; my psychology therapist is not so sure.  I function, but it's gloomy work.  Maybe "retirement" was not the best plan. But beyond anything else in necessary prospect.


I've had this same question at times. In my non-expert experience they don't necessarily go together, but they can be related. Sometimes the right drug therapy can help talk therapy to be more effective. If what you're currently doing doesn't seem to be helping, maybe it's worth exploring other options.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on March 16, 2023, 09:00:35 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on January 05, 2023, 08:06:38 PM
Reviving this thread while processing a "most likely diagnosis" of PNES (psychogenic non-epileptic seizures; aka dissociative seizures). Essentially, I've recently had a neurologist inform me that the seizure-like episodes I've been experiencing for the past couple of years are probably psychosomatic in origin.

These episodes have gotten bad enough in recent months that my PI told me to "take a break" from lab to focus on getting them under control. I know he didn't mean it this way, but it feels like I've been rejected and kicked out. I don't want to take a break from lab; I want to live my life and do my work like everybody else. Now my work is on pause and I don't know when I'll be able to start up again.

I'm really struggling with self-loathing over developing yet another mental issue after putting so much effort into learning to manage all my other ones.

Does anyone here have experience dealing with psychosomatic issues like this?

Ok. So, I've made some progress identifying triggers and I've decreased the percentage of incidents happening at lab versus happening at home. But overall, I'm feeling pretty defeated.

I'm averaging 3-4 seizures per week. My body feels banged up and sore, my mind feels foggy, and it's hard sometimes to stay optimistic.

I did manage to get my name in for a program that combines physical, occupational, and psychological therapy specifically to treat functional neurological disorders like PNES. I won't be able to start for at least another 1-2 months though.

It sounds like the treatment is intense and time-consuming, and, even with insurance, is it ever expensive. But I really need the help. This is really interfering with my life.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Istiblennius on March 17, 2023, 08:20:01 AM
I'm very sorry you are struggling.

My personal health challenge doesn't look like yours, but I am learning (slowly) to listen to my body and when it feels the equivalent of banged up and sore it is time for a cup of really good first flush darjeeling tea and some nordic noir. By watching a show with subtitles I have to focus on the show and it gives me a mental break. Whatever your thing is that gives you rest and reset time, I hope you can do that. It's okay to not be okay and to take a little time to prevent things from getting worse.

I do see in your post that you are making some real progress and have some small victories even with identifying your triggers and using that to help yourself. I know small progress for me can feel harder than no progress sometimes because once I start a path I get even more impatient- I just want to get there! 
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on March 17, 2023, 12:50:11 PM
Good to hear from you again, smallcleanrat.  It sounds like you are taking some useful steps.  Just keep working at it.  It sounds like you're not being rejected--you're being supported to help you do what you must.  I've had reason several times over the years to be glad for bosses who've shown some understanding when my mind has tried to flake out due to depression and anxiety issues.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on March 17, 2023, 02:22:56 PM
It sounds like you have had a few setbacks.  However, it also sounds like you had some great breakthroughs! 

Celebrate the Wins!  Dont concentrate on the setbacks.... Note that I didnt call them losses!  They were not!  They were just lessor victories!  You learned something from them, that will get you closer to your goal!  That is ALSO a Win!

For a diversion, what have the cats done lately?   (a self interest promotion).   

Write us a Cat Story, and then look at it from the perspective of WINNING!  How did those events help guide your next actions - What did you learn from them??
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on March 22, 2023, 08:59:20 PM
Not having a stellar week. Ended up in the ER yesterday because of a seizure; still feeling the effects (migraine and muscle soreness) today. Trying not to get too stressed about the resultant loss of productivity or too caught up in the feeling of being a burden. Trying to keep looking ahead. It's just not easy at moment. Feeling very tired and sad.

Quote from: Istiblennius on March 17, 2023, 08:20:01 AM
I'm very sorry you are struggling.

My personal health challenge doesn't look like yours, but I am learning (slowly) to listen to my body and when it feels the equivalent of banged up and sore it is time for a cup of really good first flush darjeeling tea and some nordic noir. By watching a show with subtitles I have to focus on the show and it gives me a mental break. Whatever your thing is that gives you rest and reset time, I hope you can do that. It's okay to not be okay and to take a little time to prevent things from getting worse.

I do see in your post that you are making some real progress and have some small victories even with identifying your triggers and using that to help yourself. I know small progress for me can feel harder than no progress sometimes because once I start a path I get even more impatient- I just want to get there!

Thanks, Istiblennius.

I've been trying to find solace in cats and opera.

Quote from: apl68 on March 17, 2023, 12:50:11 PM
Good to hear from you again, smallcleanrat.  It sounds like you are taking some useful steps.  Just keep working at it.  It sounds like you're not being rejected--you're being supported to help you do what you must.  I've had reason several times over the years to be glad for bosses who've shown some understanding when my mind has tried to flake out due to depression and anxiety issues.

I'm glad you've had some experience with understanding bosses, apl68. It does make such a difference. You are right; my PI is being very supportive, and I am extremely grateful for his kindness. I've been very lucky in the level of support I've received from my lab, my program, and my SO.

Quote from: clean on March 17, 2023, 02:22:56 PM
It sounds like you have had a few setbacks.  However, it also sounds like you had some great breakthroughs! 

Celebrate the Wins!  Dont concentrate on the setbacks.... Note that I didnt call them losses!  They were not!  They were just lessor victories!  You learned something from them, that will get you closer to your goal!  That is ALSO a Win!

For a diversion, what have the cats done lately?   (a self interest promotion).   

Write us a Cat Story, and then look at it from the perspective of WINNING!  How did those events help guide your next actions - What did you learn from them??

Hmm...cat wins. I'll certainly brainstorm a bit and see what I can add to the cat thread.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Larimar on March 23, 2023, 10:18:53 AM
Sorry to hear it, smallcleanrat. Hope you're getting the rest and anything else you need.

We all look forward to the next installment of the adventures of Maestro and Caramelo.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on April 20, 2023, 08:01:44 PM
Had an upsetting encounter with EMTs yesterday after another non-epileptic seizure.

The university has told my PI that emergency services must be called every single time I have a PNES episode at lab, even though I've informed them that both my neurologist and psychiatrist say this is unnecessary. I get that it's for liability reasons, but it's so humiliating to have EMTs called on me so many times. Sometimes their comments are mortifying to hear, as they express exasperation at having been called on me "again?!?" or contempt because my problem is a psych issue rather than an actual medical issue. And they can be sharp and impatient with me, which feels awful. I've apologized to them several times, but I don't know if that's had any impact.

To be fair, I'm not always communicating clearly and I sometimes resist if they try to get me on a gurney. I'm often somewhat disoriented and mentally fuzzy immediately after these episodes and I'm highly anxious about ambulances and hospitals because of some bad past experiences. So, I'm often feeling so overwhelmed and panicked when the EMTs are there that I don't speak coherently or make the most rational decisions (like accepting that they have to take me if I'm not answering their questions to demonstrate that I am ok to be left alone).

Been trying to focus on finding solutions, rather than being consumed by guilt and embarrassment, but I'm having a hard time. Best solution would be to never have another episode in lab again, but I've already been working on avoiding that and I still don't get it right all the time. Next best solution would be to avoid having 911 called when I have an episode, but this would involve finding a location away from witnesses. Even if I could get to one in time, my PI has explicitly told me not to do this because of possible liability for the lab. Next-next best solution would be to communicate and cooperate better with the EMTs so they are slightly less annoyed with me, but I don't know how to put that into practice when I'm in the moment and feeling scattered and scared.

I guess another solution would be to stop caring whether the EMTs are annoyed or not, but I don't know how to do this either. I don't like being the reason anyone else is feeling irritated.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on April 21, 2023, 07:50:56 AM
In fairness to the EMTs, they don't really know or understand the situation.  All they know is that they've been repeatedly called out, unnecessarily, to the same location for the same patient.  It's undoubtedly a frustrating situation for them.  They should not take it out on you by letting their exasperation with the situation show...but human beings often can't help that, and they're human too.  The real fault lies with the mandate from your lab that has put both you and the EMTs in this impossible situation.

I would not tell you to "stop caring" about whether the EMTs have a problem with it.  However, I would encourage you to try not to take it personally.  You know that you're not trying to cause trouble for anybody.  You're not at fault here.  I'd also encourage you to show the EMTs some grace.  Again, they're being put into a frustrating situation that they don't understand.  Assuming they don't pull something grossly unprofessional, I doubt that they're deliberately trying to be unkind or hurtful to you.  The situation sounds analogous to people who keep bumping into each other in a crowded bookstore with narrow aisles.  Nobody is trying to do wrong by anybody else.  They're just unavoidably in each others' way.  In a situation like that, people just have to try to bear with each other.  The EMTs may not be doing the best possible job of showing that sort of grace.  But you can by not letting yourself be resentful toward them.  You'll feel better for it.

On the positive side, the EMT call-outs are indeed nonessential...which is surely better than having repeated necessary emergency room visits!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: AmLitHist on April 21, 2023, 10:12:30 AM
SCR, you're probably in a bigger city/location than I, but is it consistently the same EMT crew/company coming out?  In my small town, but also at my campus in an urban setting, there's one community EMT service to cover the area. If that were the case for you, might you be able to meet with that service's director (maybe with your PI or someone else also in the meeting) to let them know of your situation? If the call-out crews were aware of your condition and why they're repeatedly being called out, it might make both you and them feel a bit more at ease. 

Remember, even though they're trained, the adrenaline gets pumping for any first responder when that call comes in. While they shouldn't automatically assume that a call for you would be "nothing," at least they could reframe their approach to make it more comfortable for everyone.

Just a thought....
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on April 24, 2023, 08:04:20 PM
Quote from: apl68 on April 21, 2023, 07:50:56 AM
The situation sounds analogous to people who keep bumping into each other in a crowded bookstore with narrow aisles.  Nobody is trying to do wrong by anybody else.  They're just unavoidably in each others' way.  In a situation like that, people just have to try to bear with each other.  The EMTs may not be doing the best possible job of showing that sort of grace.  But you can by not letting yourself be resentful toward them.  You'll feel better for it.

That's a helpful analogy. Thanks, apl68.

Quote from: AmLitHist on April 21, 2023, 10:12:30 AM
SCR, you're probably in a bigger city/location than I, but is it consistently the same EMT crew/company coming out?  In my small town, but also at my campus in an urban setting, there's one community EMT service to cover the area. If that were the case for you, might you be able to meet with that service's director (maybe with your PI or someone else also in the meeting) to let them know of your situation? If the call-out crews were aware of your condition and why they're repeatedly being called out, it might make both you and them feel a bit more at ease. 

Remember, even though they're trained, the adrenaline gets pumping for any first responder when that call comes in. While they shouldn't automatically assume that a call for you would be "nothing," at least they could reframe their approach to make it more comfortable for everyone.

Just a thought....

Thanks for your reply, AmLitHist.

It's not always the same people, but multiple people have seen me multiple times.

However, it looks like going forward the solution is going to be to keep me out of the lab again. It won't be lost time, since I can analyze data from home, and I need to be writing my thesis in anticipation of graduating this summer. But I feel so down about this. Working from home feels terribly isolating, almost like being back in lockdown.

And I feel like I've really let my PI down because of how much I've struggled with my mental and physical health throughout grad school. He's never criticized me for it ("I know you're working hard."), but I know I've hardly been the most productive student. He's been incredibly supportive, and I feel I haven't come anywhere close to paying him back for that. It depresses me to think I'll never be able to make it up to him.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on April 25, 2023, 08:36:17 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on April 24, 2023, 08:04:20 PM

And I feel like I've really let my PI down because of how much I've struggled with my mental and physical health throughout grad school. He's never criticized me for it ("I know you're working hard."), but I know I've hardly been the most productive student. He's been incredibly supportive, and I feel I haven't come anywhere close to paying him back for that. It depresses me to think I'll never be able to make it up to him.

Oh, there are ways to make it up to your PI.  You can continue persevering in the face of the heavy headwinds that you have to fight, and making progress despite them.  It's what your supportive PI undoubtedly wants to see, and he'll be glad for what he sees you do.  I'm sure there have been times when he has been glad for what you've done already. 

You can also, when the time comes--and it will someday--be supportive of somebody else who needs your support.  Several people on this thread have drawn upon their own analogous times of distress in encouraging and advising you.  I believe that you will someday have a chance to pass that on in turn.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Istiblennius on April 26, 2023, 09:09:49 AM
You just described being able to analyze data from home and prepare your thesis for graduation. That's great! That's what any good advisor (which it sounds like your PI is) wants. You will pay off his investment on you by doing exactly what you are doing.

And I want to echo what apl68 wrote. From what I've seen of your posts, you are a kind and thoughtful person yourself, and will no doubt have the opportunity to support others in the future (you probably already have). Your PI treated you the way he would want to be treated. You'll do the same. That's how you carry forward the academic legacy of this person who invested in your training.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Istiblennius on April 26, 2023, 09:13:10 AM
... and apologies for the double post, but oh my gosh, my anxiety is through the roof today. I can't identify any trigger or situation that is causing me to feel especially antsy, but I am really on edge. I am hiding in my office instead of attending a meeting (where I would not be an important component) but I still feel guilty. I just know I don't have it in me today to be part of this particular event. I have my favorite class later today, so I should be able to get my act together by then. It's just so frustrating to feel so anxious with no good reason.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: AmLitHist on April 27, 2023, 09:46:24 AM
Sending good wishes, Istiblennius.  I've had a lot of those days this spring, and they're awful. If I can at least identify the reason, it seems to make them a little easier. Don't feel guilty (easier said than done, I know).  I hope things are better today.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: clean on April 27, 2023, 11:42:51 AM
I like the idea of scheduling a meeting with you, the PI and the most likely crew & their boss.  Bring cupcakes!  Within the limits of what you can disclose about your medical records, let them know what the issue is, that the diagnosis is not 'mental', and tell them now what they can expect from you in this state, and how they can best help you!  Let them know what you are doing to manage the problem to reduce the incidences so that they know that you are trying your best and that you are still working on the fine points to address the issue and that you will still have an occasional failure to prevent the attacks. 
It will also let them see you as a person (and source of cupcakes). 
Get their names so that you can talk to them more on a one to one level, than a patient, rescuer relationship. 

And hopefully you are keeping a diary/journal to note what is working and what may be additional triggers you may have missed...  perhaps include a food log as maybe something you are eating may cause the chemical imbalance, or something else that may  increase your susceptibility!   

Finally, IF you are going to be working from home, that is not a bad thing either!  You will have more time with the kitties and will have more material for cat stories!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on May 30, 2023, 02:09:07 PM
I spent much of the past week experiencing mid-level anxiety and depression.  Like with Istiblennius above, it happens sometimes for no very apparent reason.  Sometimes it has been much worse.  I feel like over the past couple of decades I've lost a cumulative total of years of work that I might otherwise have accomplished to episodes like this.  I feel like I could have accomplished so much more if only my mind was hitting consistently on all cylinders.  But I just don't have that kind of mind.  It's frustrating to have a brain that gets sick like that periodically.

I've always been thankful to have a family and other supporters who are concerned enough to pray for me and give me good words to help me through such times.  They were helping me once again through last week's relatively mild episode.  I was doing much better by week's end.  Yesterday's opportunity to get out and around on the holiday also helped.

I've come to understand the situation as what Paul of Tarsus called a "thorn in the flesh:"

"There was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to mistreat me.  For this I begged the Lord three times to take it away from me.  He said to me: "My grace is enough for you; my strength is made perfect in weakness."  Therefore I am well pleased with weaknesses, shortages, persecutions, and distresses for Christ's sake, for when I am weak, then I am strong."

There's a paradoxical way in which weakness can make one stronger in God.  So I guess from that perspective I get periodic workouts at unpredictable intervals.

Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: AmLitHist on May 31, 2023, 09:18:35 AM
It must be the season for anxiety--count me in.

ALHS has knee replacement surgery tomorrow, but he's been through so many others, neither of us really gets worried anymore--he always does so much better afterwards (2 back surgeries, hip replacement, reverse shoulder replacement, various things on his feet--it's just ridiculous). I've also kind of made peace with the idea that my foot isn't healing and I'll likely need surgery to fix the broken bone; I go back next week for the x-ray and report. But if I do, I do, and I'll try to have him put it off until fall if I can.

So none of that's been particularly on my mind.  Spring went OK, and while I'd like for that third summer class to make, it probably won't, but I can still get some things done with the extra cash from just the two, so that's not particularly worrying.

I've been keeping busy prepping summer classes, working in the yard, and crocheting, and I didn't think I was anxious, but for the past three nights I've awakened to an elephant sitting on my chest (NOT Little Cat, for once!  LOL).  I didn't even try using the CPAP last night, though it's been doing fine and I adapted to it almost immediately.

I don't know WTH is going on. Clearly something's bothering me, though.  Maybe I'm not as carefree about the health issues as I think I am.  (Money is always a PitA this time of year, but I know that will resolve itself with the big OL check at the end of June.)
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Harlow2 on May 31, 2023, 02:46:55 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on May 31, 2023, 09:18:35 AM
It must be the season for anxiety--count me in.

ALHS has knee replacement surgery tomorrow, but he's been through so many others, neither of us really gets worried anymore--he always does so much better afterwards (2 back surgeries, hip replacement, reverse shoulder replacement, various things on his feet--it's just ridiculous). I've also kind of made peace with the idea that my foot isn't healing and I'll likely need surgery to fix the broken bone; I go back next week for the x-ray and report. But if I do, I do, and I'll try to have him put it off until fall if I can

A friend remarked that once we get to a certain age, it's just patch, patch, patch!

More seriously, if you aren't just using elephant on chest metaphorically, be sure to get checked out.

Best wishes to ALHS—
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on May 31, 2023, 06:40:27 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 30, 2023, 02:09:07 PM
I spent much of the past week experiencing mid-level anxiety and depression.  Like with Istiblennius above, it happens sometimes for no very apparent reason.  Sometimes it has been much worse.  I feel like over the past couple of decades I've lost a cumulative total of years of work that I might otherwise have accomplished to episodes like this.  I feel like I could have accomplished so much more if only my mind was hitting consistently on all cylinders.  But I just don't have that kind of mind.  It's frustrating to have a brain that gets sick like that periodically.

Sorry that you've been having a rough week, apl68.

I relate strongly to what you've written here. I don't have words of wisdom to share the way you've often had for me, but I do have a lot of sympathy for what you're going through.

AmLitHist, sorry that you're having a rough go of things too.

Best wishes, everybody.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on June 01, 2023, 07:40:15 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 31, 2023, 06:40:27 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 30, 2023, 02:09:07 PM
I spent much of the past week experiencing mid-level anxiety and depression.  Like with Istiblennius above, it happens sometimes for no very apparent reason.  Sometimes it has been much worse.  I feel like over the past couple of decades I've lost a cumulative total of years of work that I might otherwise have accomplished to episodes like this.  I feel like I could have accomplished so much more if only my mind was hitting consistently on all cylinders.  But I just don't have that kind of mind.  It's frustrating to have a brain that gets sick like that periodically.

Sorry that you've been having a rough week, apl68.

I relate strongly to what you've written here. I don't have words of wisdom to share the way you've often had for me, but I do have a lot of sympathy for what you're going through.

AmLitHist, sorry that you're having a rough go of things too.

Best wishes, everybody.

Thank you, smallcleanrat.

And congratulations on nearing the dissertation finish line!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on June 04, 2023, 07:31:02 PM
Quote from: apl68 on June 01, 2023, 07:40:15 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 31, 2023, 06:40:27 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 30, 2023, 02:09:07 PM
I spent much of the past week experiencing mid-level anxiety and depression.  Like with Istiblennius above, it happens sometimes for no very apparent reason.  Sometimes it has been much worse.  I feel like over the past couple of decades I've lost a cumulative total of years of work that I might otherwise have accomplished to episodes like this.  I feel like I could have accomplished so much more if only my mind was hitting consistently on all cylinders.  But I just don't have that kind of mind.  It's frustrating to have a brain that gets sick like that periodically.

Sorry that you've been having a rough week, apl68.

I relate strongly to what you've written here. I don't have words of wisdom to share the way you've often had for me, but I do have a lot of sympathy for what you're going through.

AmLitHist, sorry that you're having a rough go of things too.

Best wishes, everybody.

Thank you, smallcleanrat.

And congratulations on nearing the dissertation finish line!

Thanks!

I hope this week was better than the last for you.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: AmLitHist on June 05, 2023, 06:40:11 AM
Thanks, SCR!  I seem to be coming out of my funk.

Also, congrats on your progress toward the degree!  You can do this!
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on June 10, 2023, 01:11:46 PM
Lately, I've been realizing that I have a hard time with compliments.

I'm always bothered by doubts.

For example, I'd like to be able to trust the feedback on my work I get from peers and professors, but if it's complimentary my brain always searches for reasons not to believe it. I worry they are exaggerating positive feedback or leaving out negative criticism either out of kindness or a desire to avoid an uncomfortable conversation.

I have similar difficulty with personal comments too, like when someone tells me they enjoy my company.

I think this partly has to do with not wanting to delude myself into thinking I'm better than I really am. I don't want to be one of those people that constantly overestimates their own competence and worth. On the other hand, it might be nice to be able to accept a kind word now and again, and to feel good enough for a change.

Does anyone else here have difficulty accepting compliments?
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Hegemony on June 11, 2023, 12:14:31 AM
Do you have more trouble accepting them in person than if, say, you read one in a recommendation or in an email or something like that? I think part of the problem in hearing them in person is knowing what to say in response. "Thank you for explaining our position so well to the dean," someone might say, "you really made it clear; that was brilliant." And then you (I) respond, "Oh, uh, yeah, um..." So that's awkward. Whereas reading praise doesn't put one on the spot, so it might be easier to take in.

On the whole, though, I find that people rarely over-praise someone. What I observe is lots of people doing amazing jobs without much acknowledgement in any way. When you get some praise, it's most likely that you actually deserve a lot more.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on June 12, 2023, 07:30:06 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 10, 2023, 01:11:46 PM
Lately, I've been realizing that I have a hard time with compliments.

I'm always bothered by doubts.

For example, I'd like to be able to trust the feedback on my work I get from peers and professors, but if it's complimentary my brain always searches for reasons not to believe it. I worry they are exaggerating positive feedback or leaving out negative criticism either out of kindness or a desire to avoid an uncomfortable conversation.

I have similar difficulty with personal comments too, like when someone tells me they enjoy my company.

I think this partly has to do with not wanting to delude myself into thinking I'm better than I really am. I don't want to be one of those people that constantly overestimates their own competence and worth. On the other hand, it might be nice to be able to accept a kind word now and again, and to feel good enough for a change.

Does anyone else here have difficulty accepting compliments?

Yes, I have quite similar feelings and awkwardness in responding to compliments.  For broadly similar reasons.

As Hegemony says, it's good to bear in mind that over-praise isn't that common, and that people usually don't praise somebody unless they really mean it.  I've been trying to train myself to accept compliments gracefully.  If the compliment comes with a thanks of some kind, a good "you're welcome" is always in order.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: smallcleanrat on June 15, 2023, 11:18:38 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on June 11, 2023, 12:14:31 AMDo you have more trouble accepting them in person than if, say, you read one in a recommendation or in an email or something like that? I think part of the problem in hearing them in person is knowing what to say in response. "Thank you for explaining our position so well to the dean," someone might say, "you really made it clear; that was brilliant." And then you (I) respond, "Oh, uh, yeah, um..." So that's awkward. Whereas reading praise doesn't put one on the spot, so it might be easier to take in.

On the whole, though, I find that people rarely over-praise someone. What I observe is lots of people doing amazing jobs without much acknowledgement in any way. When you get some praise, it's most likely that you actually deserve a lot more.

I guess I do have more trouble with in-person compliments. Especially since I've so often heard people say much nicer things to a person's face than they are saying behind their back.

But I still have trouble with written, more formal praise too.

I didn't see any of the rec letters my profs wrote for me when I applied to grad school, but profs in my grad program told me they were "glowing." I was pretty surprised. I thought I did ok, but nowhere near good enough to merit a "glowing" recommendation. I thought perhaps they were being nice so I could have a better chance of getting in.

But if both you and apl68 agree that over-praise is uncommon, maybe I was wrong. Maybe I should work on taking positive comments at face value, and tune down the part of my brain that wants to second-guess everything.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: apl68 on June 15, 2023, 12:05:40 PM
You got into grad school, and are getting through grad school, so your letters of recommendation must have been both good and pretty much on-target.  No need to second-guess them. 

Sometime after I became the director of our library, I had the opportunity to look in my own personnel file and read the letters of recommendation I got from former supervisors for this job.  They were nice.  I will always be grateful for them.  Be grateful for the good letters of recommendation and other good things that people say about you.  They're a treasure to have.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Istiblennius on June 15, 2023, 04:12:47 PM
I completely relate to this; I also have tended to respond to compliments with some over-thinking. My go-to strategy has been to try to respond with a simple "thank you. that is so kind". It assumes the complimenter has no ulterior motives and that I really did do well on the thing they said I did. I always feel pretty good after this response and it feels like the complimenter usually does to.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: OneMoreYear on June 23, 2023, 10:07:17 AM
I think this semester has broken me. Even the COVID years were not this hard. I have had a reasonable handle on my depression for a number of years, but it appears that is no longer the case. I'm getting it on all sides from colleagues who assume I'm not doing my job to students who have eviscerated me in evals.  I will need to use this year to find a path out; I am hoping I can make it through this upcoming year without quitting, so I can continue to pay the mortgage. My options outside academic are more limited due to problems of my own making, but I'm just not sure I can continue this path much longer.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: little bongo on June 23, 2023, 11:17:59 AM
I'm sorry you're going through all this, OneMoreYear. I'm afraid I can't offer a lot of practical advice, but I get how hard it can be to keep things together at work. My best resource here came from a program offered to faculty where you can get a few free weeks of therapy and then elect to continue--I found someone I can talk to who makes me feel like a person doing their best, as opposed to how I might come off to others. I hope the summer will give you the opportunity you need to find the right path.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: Langue_doc on June 23, 2023, 01:58:58 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 23, 2023, 10:07:17 AMI think this semester has broken me. Even the COVID years were not this hard. I have had a reasonable handle on my depression for a number of years, but it appears that is no longer the case. I'm getting it on all sides from colleagues who assume I'm not doing my job to students who have eviscerated me in evals.  I will need to use this year to find a path out; I am hoping I can make it through this upcoming year without quitting, so I can continue to pay the mortgage. My options outside academic are more limited due to problems of my own making, but I'm just not sure I can continue this path much longer.

Sorry to hear that you are going through a hard time. Don't you have grad students who behave like flighty freshpeeps? Well, not all freshpeeps are flighty, but some of your grad students do sound like a poor fit for college, grad as well as undergrad. Hang in there. Hope you don't have to do much in summer other than take a well-deserved break from teaching.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: OneMoreYear on June 23, 2023, 03:22:29 PM
Thank you all so much! You have no idea how amazing it is getting (even anonymous) support. I do have some freshpeep-grad students. I am trying concentrate on the ones who are not. And I do have some amazingly supportive colleagues. There are some positives.  I don't have a full summer break due to contract, but I am headed for vacation soon, and I'm hoping that will help with the burn-out so I'll be more clear headed.  I hope everyone else is getting a well-deserved summer break and/or teaching summer classes that fulfill you or at least help financially.
Title: Re: The Mental Health Thread
Post by: AmLitHist on June 25, 2023, 11:55:13 AM
It's back to the GP for me Tuesday (she's booking into October, so I snagged what appears to be a cancellation when I saw it this morning) for antidepressants and/or anti-anxiety meds--industrial strength, by the handful, please.

Well, maybe not, but after spending the entire morning crying, and much of last week trying not to cry, I've got to do something. I'd been so proud of weaning myself off the very mild a-d I'd been on.  I know it's nothing to be ashamed of, but I'm on SO many meds right now (most of them life-long for the T2 diabetes), anything I could eliminate from the list seems like a good thing.

I am SO tired of being a sole caretaker, with no end in sight--let alone being able to even think about dealing with my own health problems. Every day is the same old shit, only worse and more of it.

Hoping others here are doing OK. And I'm right there with you, One More Year. Hang on. Know that I'm thinking about you.