Hi, I have taught at a community college for a few semesters. I noticed the following about the students. Is it just students in my school or it became common in both universities and community colleges in North America?
- Depending on the class, only 10-20% of the students are good or very good. They should be able to handle university level work. About 20% are trouble makers (see below). The rest are just average (through copying) or below average.
- Those trouble makers are students who blame and bully their professors. They like to complain to the department (sometimes even to the head) to get what they want. They are rude, disrespectful and feeling entitled. Depending on the benefits they could get, the majority of the class could join these trouble makers to complain like hell and file petitions. I have heard and experienced myself that they formed groups to complain so much that the department decided to grant multiple exceptions as it just takes "too much paperwork" for administrators to handle their complaints. These trouble makers also keep saying that they "pay" to come here and therefore they should pass or get high scores by default. Some of them do not even bother to search the internet for answers to simple questions. I have a student telling me that he is paying to come here not to search for information himself. He demanded me to do it for him. Some students also requested that I tell them what would be on the exam and teach them only how to solve those problems as it is a "waste" of their time to spend on things that will not be contribute to getting good scores. These people have no intellectual curiosity. I found it kind of insult that they keep mentioning about "paying" to come to school. I studied very hard to get a PhD. Yet, I am here to be treated by these lazy and low level students as if I were a waiter in a restaurant or a sales in a department store who take sh*t from customers.
- Whenever these trouble makers do not get what they want, they complain. They sent emails in the middle of the night, weekends and during my summer holiday. The course ended and a student kept sending me emails telling me how to manage the course account so that she could access her scores. I did not reply to her during the sensitive period that faculty members were told to be very careful about students asking their marks before the final scores are released. She complained to the department head that I ignored her. She also mentioned that she got top scores in other courses but did not do as well in my course. She threatened that if she could not get a satisfactory answer to her less than ideal marks, she would move up to the next stage and file a formal academic appeal against me. Now, the department even asked me to go back to school during my very short unpaid summer holiday to explain to her about my markings. The classmate of this student also asked me to show him my markings during my holiday.
- Students can pay to buy doctor's note. I have several students sending me 5 or 6 doctor notes in one semester to ask for all sorts of exceptions including delaying the final exam to next semester. Administrators know about this but they just play along as the students have "medical's notes".
- Some students just buy solutions of homework. Others told me that they can download some solutions for free.
- I heard that most students are foreign students paying more than locals. They use the school to get a visa to enter the country and spend most of the time (more than legally allowed) to work. They have no time to study nor able to come to class regularly. Even they do come, most of them are too tired already. I heard from administrators that it is not uncommon to have half of the class never showed up.
- I heard that by providing some medical documents, students can become some sort of special students. They are allowed to have more time to submit their assignments, write the exams, etc. There was no such thing when I was in school. Now there is a department serving many such "special" students.
- Usually bad students changed the facts and posted insulting comments about their professors on the internet to destroy their reputations. Colleagues who allow them to submit assignments any time they like even the due dates have long been passed, teach them how to answer questions to be on tests/exams so as not to "waste" their time, show them how to answer the questions "during exam!", give high marks easily are called "good professors". Those who are strict on due dates, do not give hints, etc. are called "the worst professor" in the school.
- Most students do not even bring paper nor pen to the class and to the lab. Same for tests and final exams. They always have to borrow from somebody.
- Students also do not want to read and follow instructions.
- At the beginning of a final exam, a colleague raised his hand while holding a pencil. He asked the students what that is. He told them that "this is a pencil" and it is used to fill in the bubbles for MC questions. He mentioned that each semester, despite the warning, there are students who use pen to fill in the answers.
- Some treat me as their PA. After they missed a class, they asked for details on what they missed.
- At the end of the course, some students do not know the name of their professors, the course code and section number. Some even do not know the acronym of a key term that had been discussed the entire term. Some even took the wrong exam on the wrong day!
- They have money to pay for data plan and to play but they don't have money to print out their assignments for submission.
- Whenever colleagues talk about their students, they all look very stressful and unhappy. A few colleagues even called the students "rubbish".
Community college? Same here, and I would not wholly disagree with your percentages, but:
The shenanigans you list have never afflicted me. Maybe it's the course (a STEM); maybe it's me (shaved head, physical size); maybe it's my chair (no nonsense permitted, no whining about self recalled the chair says), but I have never had any blowback that lingers in the mind (and the mind in the classroom goes back about half a century).
Maybe it's something in the water.
If I remember correctly, you received several recommendations about your situation on the old Chronicle of Higher Ed forum.
Quote from: Juvenal on August 24, 2019, 02:29:15 PM
Community college? Same here, and I would not wholly disagree with your percentages, but:
The shenanigans you list have never afflicted me. Maybe it's the course (a STEM); maybe it's me (shaved head, physical size); maybe it's my chair (no nonsense permitted, no whining about self recalled the chair says), but I have never had any blowback that lingers in the mind (and the mind in the classroom goes back about half a century).
Maybe it's something in the water.
"Trying desperately to keep the doors open" is a different situation than "trying to reach everyone where they are to contribute to individual educations while keeping an eye on the budget".
I didn't notice a distinction by market sector; I did notice a big difference between institutions that:
(A) were hoping for a miracle if they could just hold on through next term by whatever means available even while quietly lowering the bar well past good education
and
(B) institutions that were honest with themselves regarding their resources and how many students at various ability levels they can serve well enough with those resources
Case (A) tended to have high faculty turnover because of the working conditions as well as having students-in-name-only looking for a checkbox experience.
Case (B) tended to be better places to work and learn, but did have some existential angst about making potential students wait until the start of specific future term when the students could be accommodated according to the staffing plan.
The current standard advice is for people who find themselves employed at Case (A) to take jobs elsewhere, even leaving academia for the moment to pay the bills while looking for a different academic job.
I haven't experienced anything this bad, but I do get a lot of excuses, requests for make ups, etc. I give anyone who wants a make-up, which tends to be harder than the default. Good students tend to do ok, poor students tend to do poorly, and no one complains because I gave them another chance.
One colleague who has it particularly bad gave a very easy class but had a really hard final, worth a significant percentage of the grade. Usually people couldn't be bother to follow up after the semester was over to complain.
One note--it is important not to consider all students with disability accommodation as trying to game the system. I'm not sure this is what you were implying with "special students" but I've found that students with disabilities are a lot like other students--the contentious ones do well, the slackers do badly, and its doesn't have much to do with their accommodations. I have seen a couple of questionable accommodations--exception from attendance for all classes for four years--but this is very much the exception.
I thought that your estimate of the trouble makers seemed high until I saw your list of characteristics. I don't believe that students with disability accommodations are trouble makers. Nor do I think low income students are trouble makers (our campus wifi means that students don't need to use their data plan on campus, but they do have pay exorbitant printing charges to print anything out. A couple of bucks to print materials for your class doesn't seem like a big deal until you learn how many of them have maxed out their student loans and are struggling to buy groceries)
I'd also look through the Jedi mind tricks thread to see if you can spare yourself some aggravation without lowering your standards. (personally, I have zero interest in policing doctor's notes, so I choose to believe my students' excuses without documentation)
Quote from: craftyprof on August 24, 2019, 06:25:02 PM
I thought that your estimate of the trouble makers seemed high until I saw your list of characteristics. I don't believe that students with disability accommodations are trouble makers. Nor do I think low income students are trouble makers (our campus wifi means that students don't need to use their data plan on campus, but they do have pay exorbitant printing charges to print anything out. A couple of bucks to print materials for your class doesn't seem like a big deal until you learn how many of them have maxed out their student loans and are struggling to buy groceries)
I'd also look through the Jedi mind tricks thread to see if you can spare yourself some aggravation without lowering your standards. (personally, I have zero interest in policing doctor's notes, so I choose to believe my students' excuses without documentation)
I do not consider students with disability nor low income students as trouble makers. My problem is with those healthy active students who feel that they do not need to work hard to earn the grades they want, those who think they are customers and professors are servers, those who have the habit of forming teams to complain to the department directly when professors do not do what they want (a culture in my department), etc.
I have about two weeks of summer holiday. Almost half is gone because I had to mark papers and attend various departmental meetings. Now two students are hunting me during my vacation. After he found out his scores for the course, one student sent an email to the department head to threaten that if he is not satisfied with my explanations of his less than ideal performance, he would move up and file a formal academic appeal against me. He claimed that he got 80s in other courses but 70s in my course. As a result, it must be my problem! Now the department suggested me to see the student in the middle of my very short summer holiday. I still have to use my short holiday to prepare for courses that I may be assigned to teach in September. So during school terms I am busy teaching and dealing with some bad students who always complain. During my holidays, I also have to deal with these students and prepare for teaching. How not to think of entitled students who keep hunting me anytime they like when I am outside school? Since they are asking me to deal with the fault of the student during my vacation, does that mean the college and students do not respect vacation time of faculty members?
Why are you worried about a student filing an appeal? Let him file and be denied.
Don't deal with students during your very brief vacation. Students can wait until you are again on the clock
"may be assigned to teach in September"? I would be much more worried about pinning down my teaching assignments or lining up another job than dealing with last term's student informal complaints.
If you do not think students who get SAS accommodation and low-income students are troublemakers, then why did you list them in your post so dismissively?
You're not going to get a lot of helpful advice from me. Other than to advise that I don't deal with students during my vacation. Or stress about appeals. I keep my ducks in a row, and don't get a lot of appeals, but the ones I've had have taken care of themselves once I submitted the paperwork. And a couple of times I was wrong (gasp) so I corrected it.
OP-
I think some things to ask yourself are whether this happens more to you than to other professors. If so, why? Yes, it could be because you have higher standards, but sometimes standards can be too high for the student body you have. You may want to think about one or two things you can do to reduce the rate of student complaints, or at least put them in line with the average (if the average is high, then maybe the entire school has to rethink what they are doing).
You've said before that you don't have much choice in employment or location. I think then you should think more about making yourself happier in this setting and more about what would ensure your appointments. I don't mean bribing students with A's, but just some set of policies that seems friendlier than the current ones. What do other people with similar standards do? That is, people who have been there a long time, students like them, but they still have standards.
Quote from: spork on August 24, 2019, 04:17:15 PM
If I remember correctly, you received several recommendations about your situation on the old Chronicle of Higher Ed forum.
Yes, this seems very familiar and most of us went round and round about this before.
I taught at a college considered an "elite" SLAC for many years, and I saw some of what the OP mentions, but mostly in my role as adviser, and even then not often at all.
Very few grade challenges (and not really challenges, more of last-ditch begging), even though they were paying $60,000+ a year. My second semester there I had what the OP calls a "trouble maker," but the department sided with me and my colleagues told me it was a very rare event. I had a couple more students that I would call "annoying" rather than "trouble makers" early in my career, but that's all.
The college does have a department serving "special needs" students, primarily giving them more time on exams, a quiet space, permission to use a computer, but from what I saw it was used pretty responsibly. I recommended the center to more than one student.
I did have students who didn't know their course numbers and professors' names, even late in the semester. Never figured out what that was about.
I get the point wrt setting one's academic standards to generally comport with one's student population, but only up to a point. How does one rationalization, however, granting 'college' credit in a course for something that is clearly sub collegiate work, whether by giving a credit granting grade in a legitimately rigorous course for work that really doesn't legitimately qualify for such a mark, or by dumbing down the course to sub collegiate level in the first place? CCs are still actually supposed to be *colleges*,right?
The OP isn't going to listen but because this thread is out there it is worth pointing out that these are self created problems. Students are just people. Sometimes people are irritating in various ways. Half these things that enrage you aren't problems at all. Who cares if students don't bring a pen to their exams and have to borrow one. (Side note: I was this kid all through college) You're choosing to be personally offended about things that aren't your business.
Other things are just a bit annoying, but aren't worth this much aggravation. All of us hate when students ask what they missed, but all you say is "just ask someone for the notes, if you have any questions after that, I'd be happy to answer them."
Other stuff just needs to be managed so you don't spend time on it. Have some reasonable policies about missed classes and you won't spend time reading doctors notes. Once you have policies, you don't have to hector students, just explain the rules and how they work and move on. You can make exceptions in the rare cases where they are warranted, and tell everyone else sorry in a nice way.
All of us occasionally have the nightmare student who won't go away and makes various threats or goes to the chair, but I can count those students on two hands from 7+ years of teaching. That this happens to you regularly suggests something is going wrong and that at least some of these complaints might have some merit.
Quote from: Caracal on August 27, 2019, 04:59:54 AM
The OP isn't going to listen but because this thread is out there it is worth pointing out that these are self created problems. Students are just people. Sometimes people are irritating in various ways. Half these things that enrage you aren't problems at all. Who cares if students don't bring a pen to their exams and have to borrow one. (Side note: I was this kid all through college) You're choosing to be personally offended about things that aren't your business.
Other things are just a bit annoying, but aren't worth this much aggravation. All of us hate when students ask what they missed, but all you say is "just ask someone for the notes, if you have any questions after that, I'd be happy to answer them."
Other stuff just needs to be managed so you don't spend time on it. Have some reasonable policies about missed classes and you won't spend time reading doctors notes. Once you have policies, you don't have to hector students, just explain the rules and how they work and move on. You can make exceptions in the rare cases where they are warranted, and tell everyone else sorry in a nice way.
All of us occasionally have the nightmare student who won't go away and makes various threats or goes to the chair, but I can count those students on two hands from 7+ years of teaching. That this happens to you regularly suggests something is going wrong and that at least some of these complaints might have some merit.
Each course has its own policies. In one course, students fail automatically if they don't show up in the lab for over three times. When the department enforced this policy, suddenly people started submitting notes. Half of the class did that. Notes ranging from 3 to 6! One student had a note from a doctor in the North of the city and another note from a doctor from the South, both on the same day. Even administrator got very annoyed about the situation.
Quote from: hamburger on August 27, 2019, 06:24:46 AM
Each course has its own policies. In one course, students fail automatically if they don't show up in the lab for over three times. When the department enforced this policy, suddenly people started submitting notes. Half of the class did that. Notes ranging from 3 to 6! One student had a note from a doctor in the North of the city and another note from a doctor from the South, both on the same day. Even administrator got very annoyed about the situation.
Caracal is correct that one option is to decide to stop being annoyed when people violate the rules. Just apply the policy and drive on. If the administrator is annoyed, then let the administrator decide how the agreed upon policies for a shared course will change for next term.
For example, for true labs where everyone must be present for the one-time experience this semester, the policy might be zero excused absences for any reason and failure at 3 absences for any reason. I've run classes like that. Someone who is really sick three times early in the semester should drop and try again in a future semester when their health is better.
If students are routinely very sick and missing 3 lab sessions every term in droves, then that's a public health issue and not your personal problem to solve. Let the administrator coordinate with the appropriate agencies to address this community problem.
None of this has to be personal. I still sometimes smile about the student review of "Polly is not only the worst instructor I've ever had, but she is the worst human being I've ever met" from someone who missed a lot of class, refused to come to the posted office hours or recitation, and was just generally shooting himself in the foot at every term for this class. His friends* who regularly attended class as well as the recitation and office hours to ask questions had much more positive feedback with constructive criticism.
I will also recommend that if one has droves of students who just drive one crazy that finding another job where the students are in better alignment with preferences is a good option. I took that option myself and never regretted it.
* We received the original handwritten reviews and it was a small enough class so I know everyone's writing.
Quote from: polly_mer on August 27, 2019, 06:54:36 AM
Quote from: hamburger on August 27, 2019, 06:24:46 AM
Each course has its own policies. In one course, students fail automatically if they don't show up in the lab for over three times. When the department enforced this policy, suddenly people started submitting notes. Half of the class did that. Notes ranging from 3 to 6! One student had a note from a doctor in the North of the city and another note from a doctor from the South, both on the same day. Even administrator got very annoyed about the situation.
Caracal is correct that one option is to decide to stop being annoyed when people violate the rules. Just apply the policy and drive on. If the administrator is annoyed, then let the administrator decide how the agreed upon policies for a shared course will change for next term.
For example, for true labs where everyone must be present for the one-time experience this semester, the policy might be zero excused absences for any reason and failure at 3 absences for any reason. I've run classes like that. Someone who is really sick three times early in the semester should drop and try again in a future semester when their health is better.
If students are routinely very sick and missing 3 lab sessions every term in droves, then that's a public health issue and not your personal problem to solve. Let the administrator coordinate with the appropriate agencies to address this community problem.
None of this has to be personal. I still sometimes smile about the student review of "Polly is not only the worst instructor I've ever had, but she is the worst human being I've ever met" from someone who missed a lot of class, refused to come to the posted office hours or recitation, and was just generally shooting himself in the foot at every term for this class. His friends* who regularly attended class as well as the recitation and office hours to ask questions had much more positive feedback with constructive criticism.
I will also recommend that if one has droves of students who just drive one crazy that finding another job where the students are in better alignment with preferences is a good option. I took that option myself and never regretted it.
* We received the original handwritten reviews and it was a small enough class so I know everyone's writing.
Yes, agree with Poly about all of this. Requiring doctor's notes in order to excuse an absence is a bad idea for all kinds of reasons. First of all, from a public health standpoint, you don't really want people going to the doctor every time they have some virus. That certainly isn't we do. Last semester I went into school, started feeling crummy and ended up running out of class right as it ended to go vomit in the bathroom. So, I cancelled class, wrote my chair and went home. I certainly didn't go to the doctor, because what would be the point? Maybe I ate something, maybe I had a virus, maybe I was just really worn out. The next day I felt fine. So, why should we expect students to go to the doctor and get a note in a similar situation?
It sounds like you don't control all these policies since the course has to be the same across multiple sections, so perhaps you can't do anything about this dumb rule, but if you aren't in charge, then you aren't responsible. Just accept the stupid notes and go on with your life. Don't waste your time worrying about it.
And honestly, when I ran lab classes I had the 4 absences and you fail rule too. However, the point was they missed too many classes- so even having a doctor's note doesn't change that they missed too much of the experiential part of the course (in a real protracted medical crisis we might extend an incomplete, or make some other accommodation).
However, that's just focusing on one small example. What about the rest of caracal's excellent post? The focus is about changing what you can change (policy, assignments etc) and most importantly, changing your attitude towards all this.
This has been the same advice you've gotten time and time again- there's a reason you keep getting it. It's the only answer to your question.
I always ask for notes. At my school some will just lie too much if I don't ask for it, so its a deterrent for liars. For The people who bring the note, I just look to see that it looks half way real. I absolutely don't check for what ails them. I ask them to redact that if they can. Also, if that same student is absent, say 3 times, by the third time, I don't even really check any more,
and if they are absent again, say, last week of class, I just trust them that its real.
If they are sick enough to miss class, and care that something might happen to their grade, they can go to "sick call." If the nurses or doctors there think that they would be better off going away, they'll say so. Same with an external doctor.
Anyway, agreed with the main points...
Administrator wants all sessions to be run the same way. The rule is that as long as a student presents a doctor's note, the student can ask for an exception. There is no limit on the number of exceptions. Interestingly, before we reminded the students about this policy, nobody sent us the note. They just skipped classes. After the announcement, they sent us a bunch of notes. So, I had to work with the administrator to make all sorts of exceptions. It is a hassle on our side but a convenience on the side of the students. I have to allow one student to take a final exam next month because he missed one in the summer term.
It is a common knowledge at school that it is easy to buy a doctor's note. Students usually ask for a chance to take the same tests already taken by their classmates. In one doctor's note, the doctor wrote "Mr. A said that he was sick.".
Quote from: Scout on August 27, 2019, 10:42:31 AM
[. . .]
The focus is about changing what you can change
[. . .]
I structure assignments and exams so that the students who don't show up to class inevitably fail the course. I don't care why they don't show up and don't want to know. My students are legal adults and get to set their own priorities. So, for example, I'll give six exams but only the highest four exam scores will contribute to the course grade; not being present for an exam means a score of zero and no "make-up" exams will be scheduled.
Quote
This has been the same advice you've gotten time and time again- there's a reason you keep getting it. It's the only answer to your question.
But if a person bangs their head against the wall enough times, it will eventually stop hurting.
Quote from: hamburger on August 27, 2019, 02:26:58 PM
It is a common knowledge at school that it is easy to buy a doctor's note. Students usually ask for a chance to take the same tests already taken by their classmates. In one doctor's note, the doctor wrote "Mr. A said that he was sick.".
Yes, it's called a copay.
Doctor's can't reveal anything about a patient's health without specific permission. Rather than negotiate the specific verbiage that a patient is comfortable disclosing to their professor/employer/whoever, most are going to default to "patient was seen on date."
If you're going to require students to jump through this particular hoop, recognize that their actual health situation is none of your business. You don't get to know what is wrong with them or how bad it was or if it was really necessary for them to miss class.
All a doctor's note will ever tell you is that the student paid a copay rather than attend your class that day.
Several students have told me that people just buy doctor's notes without real sickness to achieve what they want.
Is teaching at university better than teaching at CC? Do university students also call themselves customers, feel entitled, make all sorts of demands and complain directly to the department anytime they like in an attempt to get the marks they want?
Quote from: hamburger on August 28, 2019, 05:51:30 AM
Several students have told me that people just buy doctor's notes without real sickness to achieve what they want.
Yes, that's probably true since what they want is a checkbox credential instead of an education.
Quote from: hamburger on August 28, 2019, 05:51:30 AM
Is teaching at university better than teaching at CC? Do university students also call themselves customers, feel entitled, make all sorts of demands and complain directly to the department anytime they like in an attempt to get the marks they want?
Depends on the university.
Whether the students are successful using those techniques at any given institution is also dependent on the institution.
The CC where I was an adjunct held the academic line and recorded the F for students who didn't demonstrate competency. In fact, at multiple times during the first half of the academic term, we professors were told to look at our attendance rosters and academically drop anyone who had N number of absences because experience indicated those students needed the strong message to either appeal with emergency paperwork (generally resulting in a refund of financial aid and automatic enrollment rollover to next term) or go do something else with their time for a couple terms.
The tuition-driven private college, though, required instructors to report struggling students to the student success people so someone could reach out and provide tutoring, counseling, or something to help the students get back on the path to success.
Again, if the majority of students need help you are unable or unwilling to give, then you need to find another job. Now is a great time to be looking for academic and non-academic jobs.
Quote from: hamburger on August 28, 2019, 05:51:30 AM
Several students have told me that people just buy doctor's notes without real sickness to achieve what they want.
Is teaching at university better than teaching at CC? Do university students also call themselves customers, feel entitled, make all sorts of demands and complain directly to the department anytime they like in an attempt to get the marks they want?
Sure, sometimes. Teaching students does involve dealing with them. Most of them are perfectly reasonable people, but some of them are irritating...
The bigger issue is that I suspect your attitude is making things worse. If you have reasonable rules, make those clear in advance and remind students of them in a friendly way when they ask for some exception you don't want to give, you can keep the little stuff from escalating. If you come across as defensive and angry to your students, they won't think you're in control and they may go looking for someone who is. Classroom management isn't just about having a bunch of rules and hectoring students. You want to seem like (and be!) a reasonable person who is happy to listen to students and help them figure out problems. That doesn't mean being a pushover, but it does mean not coming across as a standoffish person whom they can't talk to.
Quote from: hamburger on August 28, 2019, 05:51:30 AM
Several students have told me that people just buy doctor's notes without real sickness to achieve what they want.
Is teaching at university better than teaching at CC? Do university students also call themselves customers, feel entitled, make all sorts of demands and complain directly to the department anytime they like in an attempt to get the marks they want?
So doctor's note policy you can't change. Accept it and move on. What do you want to hear from us?
If you fix the things you can change, the stuff you can't won't be so annoying.
What is something you can change, and are willing to change?
I taught a difficult subject for a long time in community colleges, four year colleges and a university and what the OP states is true. I experienced this, but not the doctor's notes. Your attitude makes no difference and how much time and work you put in also doesn't matter. I was working so many hours, when I saw my paycheck, it felt like a volunteer job. The mediocre university was no better than the affluent community college (that had students from very good high schools) Traditional or adult students both. Adults were more insolent and entitled than the younger ones. Adult students are more conscientious and prompt but their work was usually no better.
Entitled to an A because then their employer would pay for the course.
Rampant cheating, disrespect, laziness, etc. I needed the money so I continued with no appreciation from anyone. Evaluations were crucial.So knock yourself out, see if anyone cares.
The most important thing everyone expected was high grade inflation--keep them happy. Make it easy to get A and B. Let the class out early and they won't complain. I knew part-timers who gave them snacks, lox and bagels, pizza, etc. Show lots of films.
About 10% did excellent work.
For a different perspective, I taught for 12 years at a CC, first as an adjunct and then as full-time, eventually as chair. I taught in the sciences (everything from beginner bio, to organic chem, biochem, molecular biology, genetics etc). My students were pre-nursing and students looking to transfer as science majors.
The vast majority of my students were terrific, committed, and great to have in class. They also has complexities in their lives I could not even begin to imagine (parents actively undermining their college attempt, abuse, legal problems, poverty, homelessness, and more). Some were underprepared and unmotivated.
We taught courses with rigor and maintained high expectations and grading. What did do was more scaffolding, support opportunities, and made clearer connections between the courses and their future plans. Folks who taught developmental math and English had it much harder than we did, but our students did come from a range of preparedness. A big one was being unfamiliar with colleges as bureaucracies- they didn't know how to advocate for themselves or what was appropriate advocacy.
So, I've been where our OP is and fully get the challenges. I just think there are things they are bringing to the table that may be making the situation worse for himself.
The last several posts really get to the point: I think the OP may be making a bad situation worse.
Some 4 year colleges might be a little better in terms of general student commitment and adherence to values; however, I think you'd see some elements of these issues everywhere. OP and others have to learn some coping strategies and not accelerate every student complaint. Calming down angry folks is key. Generally being pleasant and accepting without being a pushover is also key.
OP. You have minimal control over other people. My guess is that you would be unhappy wherever you are with your current approach.
Try reading the Stoics. That might help.
Don't let small mistakes on their part (forgetting a pen) upset you so much. They will figure it out.
Just because a students asks for something NOW (emails at 3:00am, wants a review session now, etc.) doesn't mean you have to respond right away. I don't answer emails at 3:00am because I'm asleep. If they want a review, tell them you're happy to chat about specific questions during your office hours.
If the policy is that a medical note = excused from class, just enforce the policy consistently and fairly. That's all you can do. If a student turns in several, just email your chair to ask for advice.
It sounds like you are very upset. I get the frustration. I'm going to share the best teaching advice I got:
"You can only teach the students you have, not the students you wish you had"
P.S. students are saying that they can just download answers to your assignments, you need to write new assignments.
Quote from: the_geneticist on August 29, 2019, 11:45:06 AM
I'm going to share the best teaching advice I got:
"You can only teach the students you have, not the students you wish you had"
I agree with the_geneticist with the major points, but not on this one. Having been given the same advice, I've resisted it. When I get students who lack basic skills and cheat, I fail them. Let other professors who have reputations for being accommodating teach them. Generally, after a few semesters, I end up getting more of the students I want.
Yes, but are you being fair to your colleagues and the rest of the students, Downer?
I have colleagues who are like what you are implying and their sections are always avoided. Some of us are teaching as many *total* students as they have in one class! I know that some of the other professors are doing the opposite---bribing with high grades and lenient policies, but I think its part of our job to be fair and appropriately adjust expectations. Or at least be willing to accept that you'll have a number of dullard D students who will stumble through your class, perhaps grumpily, but then pass and (maybe) qualify for graduation, according to the sorts of rules all of us agree to before taking a faculty job.
I have seen situations where professors or whole departments complained about other professors who gave all A and B grades, and always had full classes. The complaint was that these professors were stealing enrollment from other people, and thus making life more difficult and sometimes professors with stricter standards had difficulty making load.
I've never heard the lenient professors complain that they are getting the bad students because other professors grade too hard and give too much work, and are driving the bad students to their classes. But I guess it is theoretically possible that someone might make that complaint.
Maybe there is something to be said for a department to have consistent standards across the board. It seems like a good idea. But it does not happen much. It is a "herding cats" problem. Everyone teaches in their own way.
If there was a perceived problem about a lack of consistency across classes and there was a will to address it, I'd be open to being in the conversation. That hasn't happened in my experience.
Quote from: Ruralguy on August 29, 2019, 01:06:11 PM
Yes, but are you being fair to your colleagues and the rest of the students, Downer?
I have colleagues who are like what you are implying and their sections are always avoided. Some of us are teaching as many *total* students as they have in one class! I know that some of the other professors are doing the opposite---bribing with high grades and lenient policies, but I think its part of our job to be fair and appropriately adjust expectations. Or at least be willing to accept that you'll have a number of dullard D students who will stumble through your class, perhaps grumpily, but then pass and (maybe) qualify for graduation, according to the sorts of rules all of us agree to before taking a faculty job.
Strongly agree with this POV. I sometimes think--I adjunct an 8 a.m. class--"Another day, another dullard." And then it's "show time" and I perk right up and do what I think is "my best." But that's only a single evaluative data point...
Oops...sorry, I meant to say of course that the low enrollment profs had as many people total as I have in one class, not the other way around.
Quote from: downer on August 29, 2019, 10:11:31 AM
OP. You have minimal control over other people. My guess is that you would be unhappy wherever you are with your current approach.
Try reading the Stoics. That might help.
Any good recommendation?
Quote from: hamburger on August 29, 2019, 02:31:09 PM
Quote from: downer on August 29, 2019, 10:11:31 AM
OP. You have minimal control over other people. My guess is that you would be unhappy wherever you are with your current approach.
Try reading the Stoics. That might help.
Any good recommendation?
This is a helpful webpage: https://dailystoic.com/what-is-stoicism-a-definition-3-stoic-exercises-to-get-you-started/
Move on from there.
Quote from: Ruralguy on August 29, 2019, 09:25:39 AM
The last several posts really get to the point: I think the OP may be making a bad situation worse.
Some 4 year colleges might be a little better in terms of general student commitment and adherence to values; however, I think you'd see some elements of these issues everywhere. OP and others have to learn some coping strategies and not accelerate every student complaint. Calming down angry folks is key. Generally being pleasant and accepting without being a pushover is also key.
You are right. I am still upset about a student complaining me three weeks ago. He is in 1st year and sent nasty email questioning my academic qualifications! He also said that he paid to come to this CC and he was not going to search for information himself, I had to do it for him. He asked if I know how to do the homework myself. I studied very hard, went to top schools and devoted my life to get a PhD. Yet, some of these CC students (especially in 1st and 2nd years) keep stepping on me because they consider themselves as customers.
I was introduced to a senior colleague who has taught here for 30 years. When he heard that I got complaints from students. The first thing he said was that I must be a good professor. Otherwise, students would not have complained about me. He then kept complaining that each year students get worse and worse, more and more students feeling entitled, students are used to complaining since high schools that let them to graduate regardless, etc.
How not to get my life from being sucked into unhappiness caused by these students? Regardless of the number of courses I teach each semester, I tend to just spend almost all the time thinking about these students and lose energy to do research, enjoy life and look for the next job, etc. My very short summer holiday is ending. During my holiday, I went to school to explain to my hiring manager what happened, sent emails to the Chair and a Coordinator about students wanting to see how I marked their papers, and prepare for courses starting next week. It is not really a holiday.
Quote from: downer on August 29, 2019, 02:42:35 PM
Quote from: hamburger on August 29, 2019, 02:31:09 PM
Quote from: downer on August 29, 2019, 10:11:31 AM
OP. You have minimal control over other people. My guess is that you would be unhappy wherever you are with your current approach.
Try reading the Stoics. That might help.
Any good recommendation?
Thanks.
This is a helpful webpage: https://dailystoic.com/what-is-stoicism-a-definition-3-stoic-exercises-to-get-you-started/
Move on from there.
Quote from: hamburger on August 29, 2019, 02:58:55 PMDuring my holiday, I went to school to explain to my hiring manager what happened, sent emails to the Chair and a Coordinator about students wanting to see how I marked their papers, and prepare for courses starting next week. It is not really a holiday.
You seem to be close to realizing that you made a mistake here, but you are not quite there yet.
Prioritize your own needs. Stay sane. Take holidays. Don't work on the weekends. Do what is good for you. Everything else comes after that.
Quote from: downer on August 29, 2019, 10:11:31 AM
OP. You have minimal control over other people. My guess is that you would be unhappy wherever you are with your current approach.
Try reading the Stoics. That might help.
Or maybe the New Testament.
Quote from: downer on August 29, 2019, 02:42:35 PM
Quote from: hamburger on August 29, 2019, 02:31:09 PM
Quote from: downer on August 29, 2019, 10:11:31 AM
OP. You have minimal control over other people. My guess is that you would be unhappy wherever you are with your current approach.
Try reading the Stoics. That might help.
Any good recommendation?
This is a helpful webpage: https://dailystoic.com/what-is-stoicism-a-definition-3-stoic-exercises-to-get-you-started/
Move on from there.
I am surrounded by students who drag me down. I don't even have a brief summer holiday. When I go back to school, I have to meet with those who complained about me to explain to them how I marked their papers. If they are not happy, they file a formal complaint against me. A student has already threatened me. They do not have the brain nor studied hard. Why I have to waste my brief holiday time to discuss with administrators about them and also meet with them to handle their complaints when the school starts? Meanwhile, I have to waste my time to make arrangement for those who decided not to write the final exams to come back to write the exam and mark their papers. At the same time, I have to prepare for teaching new courses. Yes, each semester I get to teach new courses so I need time for preparations. All these are unpaid work. Students can say nasty things directly to professors and post on the internet with name specified to destroy our reputations. Yet, we cannot do the same thing to them. Why higher education created this unfair situation? As far as I know, if a student wants to appeal, they have to pay for a service fee first. Is this all about profit earning?
Making students pay extra to file a complaint is really inappropriate.
It isn't unusual for students to want to understand their grades. But you can tell them when you are available to meet, which should be when the new semester starts or when you plan to be in your office before then. If the course grade is based on a number of assignments, then using the online grading system with Canvas, Blackboard, etc. can help them understand their grades.
Quote from: Dismal on September 01, 2019, 09:12:33 PM
It isn't unusual for students to want to understand their grades. But you can tell them when you are available to meet, which should be when the new semester starts or when you plan to be in your office before then. If the course grade is based on a number of assignments, then using the online grading system with Canvas, Blackboard, etc. can help them understand their grades.
A foreign student demanded to see the sample solutions used to mark the paper. He then compared his answers with the sample solutions WORD BY WORD. I am not kidding. He checked WORD BY WORD, SYMBOL BY SYMBOL. This guy questioned me and the senior colleague as if we were criminals. He act like an interrogator himself. The meeting took about 1.5 hours. I have never met any student like him. His friend also demanded to see the paper and complained about being treated unfairly. I was also told to prepare new exam paper for a student who decided not to show up in the final exam and got approved to take it in the Fall semester.
It was my day off but I spent my entire day to deal with these three students. They did not study hard nor had the ability to get the kind of top scores they wanted. It was not my fault.
Meanwhile, for this semester, a new student sent me an email saying that he would be late for school for three weeks. The other wrote to me that he would try to go to school earlier but he was not sure when. Another one sent me a doctor's note about sickness. They asked me to report to them what they are going to miss and give them exceptions on late assignments, missed tests, etc.
Besides teaching and prepare for new courses that I am assigned to teach, all my time and energy are being used on these students, to do things for their convenience.
Do professors in top schools also have to deal with these things these days?
Quote from: hamburger on September 05, 2019, 12:32:35 PM
Quote from: Dismal on September 01, 2019, 09:12:33 PM
It isn't unusual for students to want to understand their grades. But you can tell them when you are available to meet, which should be when the new semester starts or when you plan to be in your office before then. If the course grade is based on a number of assignments, then using the online grading system with Canvas, Blackboard, etc. can help them understand their grades.
A foreign student demanded to see the sample solutions used to mark the paper. He then compared his answers with the sample solutions WORD BY WORD. I am not kidding. WORD BY WORD, SYMBOL BY SYMBOL. This guy questioned me and the senior colleague as if we were criminals. He act like an interrogator himself. The meeting took about 1.5 hours. I have never met any student like him.
As we've said before, this is less a student problem as a institutional problem. All students will push boundaries- that your institution allows this to happen is the problem.
So, you can't change what is not in your control. What can you change?
Quote from: Scout on September 05, 2019, 01:09:13 PM
Quote from: hamburger on September 05, 2019, 12:32:35 PM
Quote from: Dismal on September 01, 2019, 09:12:33 PM
It isn't unusual for students to want to understand their grades. But you can tell them when you are available to meet, which should be when the new semester starts or when you plan to be in your office before then. If the course grade is based on a number of assignments, then using the online grading system with Canvas, Blackboard, etc. can help them understand their grades.
A foreign student demanded to see the sample solutions used to mark the paper. He then compared his answers with the sample solutions WORD BY WORD. I am not kidding. WORD BY WORD, SYMBOL BY SYMBOL. This guy questioned me and the senior colleague as if we were criminals. He act like an interrogator himself. The meeting took about 1.5 hours. I have never met any student like him.
As we've said before, this is less a student problem as a institutional problem. All students will push boundaries- that your institution allows this to happen is the problem.
So, you can't change what is not in your control. What can you change?
My perception. I always keep in mind that i get to teach the students I got rather than the kind of students I want.
Quote from: hamburger on September 05, 2019, 01:21:21 PM
My perception. I always keep in mind that i get to teach the students I got rather than the kind of students I want.
That's a start. Your strong reactions suggest that you haven't completely taken this on board, but it is a process.
BTW, students can be annoying wherever you are, or delightful too. Some of my favorite students are at the community college.
Another thing you can change: your job.
Quote from: hamburger on September 05, 2019, 12:32:35 PM
Quote from: Dismal on September 01, 2019, 09:12:33 PM
It isn't unusual for students to want to understand their grades. But you can tell them when you are available to meet, which should be when the new semester starts or when you plan to be in your office before then. If the course grade is based on a number of assignments, then using the online grading system with Canvas, Blackboard, etc. can help them understand their grades.
A foreign student demanded to see the sample solutions used to mark the paper. He then compared his answers with the sample solutions WORD BY WORD. I am not kidding. He checked WORD BY WORD, SYMBOL BY SYMBOL. This guy questioned me and the senior colleague as if we were criminals. He act like an interrogator himself. The meeting took about 1.5 hours. I have never met any student like him. His friend also demanded to see the paper and complained about being treated unfairly. I was also told to prepare new exam paper for a student who decided not to show up in the final exam and got approved to take it in the Fall semester.
For what it's worth, I'd consider this something a student has a right to: a detailed and thorough rubric against which to compare their work. You can save yourself quite a bit of work if you just provide it for them to look over- I post all of my solutions with explanation and point rubric to our course management system, and encourage students to closely check their work and my grading. After all, professors are human and make mistakes.
It would cut down on the *time* the issue took you if they were able to do the comparison on their own time, and only come to you with specific (possibly even written) issues for you to discuss with them.
And don't do it when you're on break.
I feel like you're mixing issues that are serious, issues that are frustrating but we all have to deal with, and things that are non-issues.
Quote from: eigen on September 06, 2019, 01:07:58 PM
Quote from: hamburger on September 05, 2019, 12:32:35 PM
Quote from: Dismal on September 01, 2019, 09:12:33 PM
It isn't unusual for students to want to understand their grades. But you can tell them when you are available to meet, which should be when the new semester starts or when you plan to be in your office before then. If the course grade is based on a number of assignments, then using the online grading system with Canvas, Blackboard, etc. can help them understand their grades.
A foreign student demanded to see the sample solutions used to mark the paper. He then compared his answers with the sample solutions WORD BY WORD. I am not kidding. He checked WORD BY WORD, SYMBOL BY SYMBOL. This guy questioned me and the senior colleague as if we were criminals. He act like an interrogator himself. The meeting took about 1.5 hours. I have never met any student like him. His friend also demanded to see the paper and complained about being treated unfairly. I was also told to prepare new exam paper for a student who decided not to show up in the final exam and got approved to take it in the Fall semester.
For what it's worth, I'd consider this something a student has a right to: a detailed and thorough rubric against which to compare their work. You can save yourself quite a bit of work if you just provide it for them to look over- I post all of my solutions with explanation and point rubric to our course management system, and encourage students to closely check their work and my grading. After all, professors are human and make mistakes.
It would cut down on the *time* the issue took you if they were able to do the comparison on their own time, and only come to you with specific (possibly even written) issues for you to discuss with them.
And don't do it when you're on break.
I feel like you're mixing issues that are serious, issues that are frustrating but we all have to deal with, and things that are non-issues.
I provided the rubric but he disagreed with the rubric as well. He disagreed with almost all the markings I made. For example, in one question, I deducted 4 marks. He complained that that was too much. He also put his paper close to my face and my senior colleague's face. Completely inappropriate. Yet, I could not scream at him nor kick him out of the room. He and his friend also pulled the trick that they are foreign students and they were being treated unfairly as newcomers. They talked about human rights, student rights, etc. In my CC, usually we don't have a rubric. We also don't have a sample solutions that profs from different sections use to mark the papers. I made my own rubric.
Quote from: hamburger on September 09, 2019, 02:21:40 PM
I provided the rubric but he disagreed with the rubric as well. He disagreed with almost all the markings I made. For example, in one question, I deducted 4 marks. He complained that that was too much. He also put his paper close to my face and my senior colleague's face. Completely inappropriate. Yet, I could not scream at him nor kick him out of the room. He and his friend also pulled the trick that they are foreign students and they were being treated unfairly as newcomers. They talked about human rights, student rights, etc. In my CC, usually we don't have a rubric. We also don't have a sample solutions that profs from different sections use to mark the papers. I made my own rubric.
This is entirely bizarre.
It is true you can't kick a student out of a room. Not literally. You can say that their behavior is inappropriate and if they continue, the meeting is over, and if they continue, you leave.
It sounds like you are not in a supportive environment, and so obviously your main goal is to get out of there to somewhere better.
I would recommend doing whatever it takes to get a better job.
The phrase
learned helplessness is coming to my mind. It sounds like you and your colleagues don't know how to assert authority. If that is the case, you might as well just let the students decide their grades.
Quote from: downer on September 09, 2019, 04:19:06 PM
Quote from: hamburger on September 09, 2019, 02:21:40 PM
I provided the rubric but he disagreed with the rubric as well. He disagreed with almost all the markings I made. For example, in one question, I deducted 4 marks. He complained that that was too much. He also put his paper close to my face and my senior colleague's face. Completely inappropriate. Yet, I could not scream at him nor kick him out of the room. He and his friend also pulled the trick that they are foreign students and they were being treated unfairly as newcomers. They talked about human rights, student rights, etc. In my CC, usually we don't have a rubric. We also don't have a sample solutions that profs from different sections use to mark the papers. I made my own rubric.
This is entirely bizarre.
It is true you can't kick a student out of a room. Not literally. You can say that their behavior is inappropriate and if they continue, the meeting is over, and if they continue, you leave.
It sounds like you are not in a supportive environment, and so obviously your main goal is to get out of there to somewhere better.
I would recommend doing whatever it takes to get a better job.
The phrase learned helplessness is coming to my mind. It sounds like you and your colleagues don't know how to assert authority. If that is the case, you might as well just let the students decide their grades.
I have taught for many years. Never met any student like that.
Before I met this guy, I met his friend (from the same country) with a senior professor. She also played the trick of crying and claimed that she was being treated unfairly in a foreign country. Their country is famous for w**. I guess they just treated me as their enemy rather than as a professor. At several points, she showed evil smiles. I defended for myself a few times but each time my senior colleague asked me to stop. After that meeting, I asked him why he told me to stop responding to her. He just told me that there was no need to "argue with the student". When dealing with this guy, the senior professor left the room several times. Probably he was taking a break from this guy. When he was there, he just opened his mouth and starred at this guy while he was comparing the sample answers with his answers word by word. He did not rush him at all. Just observed his behavior. I don't know what happened to this guy because I left a bit earlier to handle another mess caused by a 3rd student. That senior colleague did not tell me what happened while I was away.
In the first week of school, four students already asked me for special treatments saying that they cannot attend for various reasons. One never addresses me by name. He wrote in a way as if I were his servant.
Professors' time and energy should be spent on teaching those who want to learn rather than serving those who want to get high marks by complaining rather than studying hard.
Quote from: hamburger on September 09, 2019, 08:47:20 PM
Quote from: downer on September 09, 2019, 04:19:06 PM
The phrase learned helplessness is coming to my mind. It sounds like you and your colleagues don't know how to assert authority. If that is the case, you might as well just let the students decide their grades.
I have taught for many years. Never met any student like that.
From your own posts here, you've met several students like that (indeed, whole sections at your current institution have many of these students). You, Hamburger, are exhibiting "learned helplessness" yourself by sharing a new story about the students every time instead of getting a different job or implementing any of the advice given to protect your energy and time by focusing on the things you can change.
Getting a new job ain't that simple. We don't know what the OP's field is, but it probably ain't engineering or some such thing with real alternative non academic options for PhDs.
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 10, 2019, 09:54:58 PM
Getting a new job ain't that simple. We don't know what the OP's field is, but it probably ain't engineering or some such thing with real alternative non academic options for PhDs.
Actually, best I can follow from their posts they are in either electrical engineering or computer science, or at least one of the physical sciences.
Since most of their discussions are about labs and programming.
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 10, 2019, 09:54:58 PM
Getting a new job ain't that simple. We don't know what the OP's field is, but it probably ain't engineering or some such thing with real alternative non academic options for PhDs.
Even if getting a new job isn't simple, this particular job is a terrible match for the OP. A minimum wage job climbing some other ladder is probably going to work out better than continuing to be frustrated with this job and working a lot when technically off the clock.
If you work in professional education long enough, odds are good that you are going to encounter anomalous student outliers with insane behavioral issues. One of my colleagues had a chair thrown at her in her office once by an angry student. That student was off-the-farm nuts. He got himself barred from the campus for his actions. But the instance was so very rare that no one at that college could recollect a similar situation ever arising.
So, one or two nutty students should not be cause for leaving the profession, or anyone advising you to leave the profession, any more than someone closing down a restaurant because they had a 3-day E. coli scare from bad lettuce. Sometimes, bad junk happens that is just really unusual and rare.
If you work at an institutional type that tends to attract higher percentages of badly behaving students (e.g. open enrollment places, super-entitled SLACs), there will normally be guidance in your faculty handbook, a pool of senior faculty to turn to, and extra staff resources (e.g. counselors, security) available. For example, I have a big red security button at my institution that every professor is encouraged to mash down if ever anyone gets out of control. We'll have security/police in that room in minutes. Any verbal, nonverbal, written or electronic harassment directed to a professor is not tolerated and there are clear procedures for having harassing students sanctioned or barred from campus. We have a lot of female professors and a lot of non-native students hailing from countries who view women as inferior creatures. Sexist bullying and sexist harassment is not at all unusual for these unfortunate professors. If you have a lot of student who are harassing you, and your institution is not providing helpful resources, and/or your colleagues are unavailable or unwilling to help, then I would say that your institution is not a healthy place to work at.
Quote from: hamburger on September 09, 2019, 08:47:20 PM
In the first week of school, four students already asked me for special treatments saying that they cannot attend for various reasons. One never addresses me by name. He wrote in a way as if I were his servant.
Yes, but you are not required to grant them special treatment. You actually can say, "I'm sorry but the attendance policy is X, and I have to apply it fairly to everyone." I can already hear you gearing up to type that if you actually do that, students will complain about you. Let them complain. You can give the same explanation to an administrator, and include, "If you would like for me to handle this differently, please tell me how to proceed."
In a previous post:
Quote from: hamburger on September 05, 2019, 12:32:35 PM
Meanwhile, for this semester, a new student sent me an email saying that he would be late for school for three weeks. The other wrote to me that he would try to go to school earlier but he was not sure when. Another one sent me a doctor's note about sickness. They asked me to report to them what they are going to miss and give them exceptions on late assignments, missed tests, etc.
Again - you can let go of this as a problem as well. Adhere to the written attendance policy, and tell them that to catch up they will have to {read the textbook/access materials on the LMS/ask a friend for notes}. Whatever works. Then go about your business because their learning is their responsibility, and this is college.
Quote from: hamburger on September 05, 2019, 12:32:35 PM
Besides teaching and prepare for new courses that I am assigned to teach, all my time and energy are being used on these students, to do things for their convenience.
Perhaps so, but you don't
actually have to spend all your time and energy catering to their convenience. Give them the tools, point them to the policy and go.
(For what it's worth, I teach gen ed courses at a rural CC which sees many under-prepared students.)