Is this common in universities and community colleges in North America?

Started by hamburger, August 24, 2019, 10:49:50 AM

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polly_mer

Quote from: hamburger on August 27, 2019, 06:24:46 AM
Each course has its own policies. In one course, students fail automatically if they don't show up in the lab for over three times. When the department enforced this policy, suddenly people started submitting notes. Half of the class did that. Notes ranging from 3 to 6! One student had a note from a doctor in the North of the city and another note from a doctor from the South, both on the same day. Even administrator got very annoyed about the situation.

Caracal is correct that one option is to decide to stop being annoyed when people violate the rules.  Just apply the policy and drive on.  If the administrator is annoyed, then let the administrator decide how the agreed upon policies for a shared course will change for next term.

For example, for true labs where everyone must be present for the one-time experience this semester, the policy might be zero excused absences for any reason and failure at 3 absences for any reason.  I've run classes like that.  Someone who is really sick three times early in the semester should drop and try again in a future semester when their health is better.

If students are routinely very sick and missing 3 lab sessions every term in droves, then that's a public health issue and not your personal problem to solve.  Let the administrator coordinate with the appropriate agencies to address this community problem.

None of this has to be personal.  I still sometimes smile about the student review of "Polly is not only the worst instructor I've ever had, but she is the worst human being I've ever met" from someone who missed a lot of class, refused to come to the posted office hours or recitation, and was just generally shooting himself in the foot at every term for this class.  His friends* who regularly attended class as well as the recitation and office hours to ask questions had much more positive feedback with constructive criticism.

I will also recommend that if one has droves of students who just drive one crazy that finding another job where the students are in better alignment with preferences is a good option.  I took that option myself and never regretted it.

* We received the original handwritten reviews and it was a small enough class so I know everyone's writing.
Quote from: hmaria1609 on June 27, 2019, 07:07:43 PM
Do whatever you want--I'm just the background dancer in your show!

Caracal

Quote from: polly_mer on August 27, 2019, 06:54:36 AM
Quote from: hamburger on August 27, 2019, 06:24:46 AM
Each course has its own policies. In one course, students fail automatically if they don't show up in the lab for over three times. When the department enforced this policy, suddenly people started submitting notes. Half of the class did that. Notes ranging from 3 to 6! One student had a note from a doctor in the North of the city and another note from a doctor from the South, both on the same day. Even administrator got very annoyed about the situation.

Caracal is correct that one option is to decide to stop being annoyed when people violate the rules.  Just apply the policy and drive on.  If the administrator is annoyed, then let the administrator decide how the agreed upon policies for a shared course will change for next term.

For example, for true labs where everyone must be present for the one-time experience this semester, the policy might be zero excused absences for any reason and failure at 3 absences for any reason.  I've run classes like that.  Someone who is really sick three times early in the semester should drop and try again in a future semester when their health is better.

If students are routinely very sick and missing 3 lab sessions every term in droves, then that's a public health issue and not your personal problem to solve.  Let the administrator coordinate with the appropriate agencies to address this community problem.

None of this has to be personal.  I still sometimes smile about the student review of "Polly is not only the worst instructor I've ever had, but she is the worst human being I've ever met" from someone who missed a lot of class, refused to come to the posted office hours or recitation, and was just generally shooting himself in the foot at every term for this class.  His friends* who regularly attended class as well as the recitation and office hours to ask questions had much more positive feedback with constructive criticism.

I will also recommend that if one has droves of students who just drive one crazy that finding another job where the students are in better alignment with preferences is a good option.  I took that option myself and never regretted it.

* We received the original handwritten reviews and it was a small enough class so I know everyone's writing.

Yes, agree with Poly about all of this. Requiring doctor's notes in order to excuse an absence is a bad idea for all kinds of reasons. First of all, from a public health standpoint, you don't really want people going to the doctor every time they have some virus. That certainly isn't we do. Last semester I went into school, started feeling crummy and ended up running out of class right as it ended to go vomit in the bathroom. So, I cancelled class, wrote my chair and went home. I certainly didn't go to the doctor, because what would be the point? Maybe I ate something, maybe I had a virus, maybe I was just really worn out. The next day I felt fine. So, why should we expect students to go to the doctor and get a note in a similar situation?

It sounds like you don't control all these policies since the course has to be the same across multiple sections, so perhaps you can't do anything about this dumb rule, but if you aren't in charge, then you aren't responsible. Just accept the stupid notes and go on with your life. Don't waste your time worrying about it.

Scout

And honestly, when I ran lab classes I had the 4 absences and you fail rule too. However, the point was they missed too many classes- so even having a doctor's note doesn't change that they missed too much of the experiential part of the course (in a real protracted medical crisis we might extend an incomplete, or make some other accommodation).

However, that's just focusing on one small example. What about the rest of caracal's excellent post? The focus is about changing what you can change (policy, assignments etc) and most importantly, changing your attitude towards all this.

This has been the same advice you've gotten time and time again- there's a reason you keep getting it. It's the only answer to your question.

Ruralguy

I always ask for notes. At my school  some will just lie too much if I don't ask for it, so its a deterrent for liars. For The people who bring the note, I just look to see that it looks half way real. I absolutely don't check for what ails them. I ask them to redact that if they can.  Also, if that same student is absent, say 3 times, by the third time, I don't even really check any more,
and if they are absent again, say, last week of class, I just trust them that its real.

If they are sick enough to miss class, and care that something might happen to their grade, they can go to "sick call." If the nurses or doctors there think that they would be better off going away, they'll say so.  Same with an external doctor.

Anyway, agreed with the main points...

hamburger

Administrator wants all sessions to be run the same way. The rule is that as long as a student presents a doctor's note, the student can ask for an exception. There is no limit on the number of exceptions. Interestingly, before we reminded the students about this policy, nobody sent us the note. They just skipped classes. After the announcement, they sent us a bunch of notes. So, I had to work with the administrator to make all sorts of exceptions. It is a hassle on our side but a convenience on the side of the students. I have to allow one student to take a final exam next month because he missed one in the summer term.

It is a common knowledge at school that it is easy to buy a doctor's note. Students usually ask for a chance to take the same tests already taken by their classmates. In one doctor's note, the doctor wrote "Mr. A said that he was sick.".

spork

Quote from: Scout on August 27, 2019, 10:42:31 AM

[. . .]

The focus is about changing what you can change

[. . .]


I structure assignments and exams so that the students who don't show up to class inevitably fail the course. I don't care why they don't show up and don't want to know. My students are legal adults and get to set their own priorities. So, for example, I'll give six exams but only the highest four exam scores will contribute to the course grade; not being present for an exam means a score of zero and no "make-up" exams will be scheduled.

Quote

This has been the same advice you've gotten time and time again- there's a reason you keep getting it. It's the only answer to your question.

But if a person bangs their head against the wall enough times, it will eventually stop hurting.
It's terrible writing, used to obfuscate the fact that the authors actually have nothing to say.

craftyprof

Quote from: hamburger on August 27, 2019, 02:26:58 PM
It is a common knowledge at school that it is easy to buy a doctor's note. Students usually ask for a chance to take the same tests already taken by their classmates. In one doctor's note, the doctor wrote "Mr. A said that he was sick.".

Yes, it's called a copay.
Doctor's can't reveal anything about a patient's health without specific permission.  Rather than negotiate the specific verbiage that a patient is comfortable disclosing to their professor/employer/whoever, most are going to default to "patient was seen on date."

If you're going to require students to jump through this particular hoop, recognize that their actual health situation is none of your business.  You don't get to know what is wrong with them or how bad it was or if it was really necessary for them to miss class.

All a doctor's note will ever tell you is that the student paid a copay rather than attend your class that day.

hamburger

Several students have told me that people just buy doctor's notes without real sickness to achieve what they want.

Is teaching at university better than teaching at CC? Do university students also call themselves customers, feel entitled, make all sorts of demands and complain directly to the department anytime they like in an attempt to get the marks they want?

polly_mer

Quote from: hamburger on August 28, 2019, 05:51:30 AM
Several students have told me that people just buy doctor's notes without real sickness to achieve what they want.

Yes, that's probably true since what they want is a checkbox credential instead of an education.

Quote from: hamburger on August 28, 2019, 05:51:30 AM
Is teaching at university better than teaching at CC? Do university students also call themselves customers, feel entitled, make all sorts of demands and complain directly to the department anytime they like in an attempt to get the marks they want?

Depends on the university. 

Whether the students are successful using those techniques at any given institution is also dependent on the institution. 

The CC where I was an adjunct held the academic line and recorded the F for students who didn't demonstrate competency.  In fact, at multiple times during the first half of the academic term, we professors were told to look at our attendance rosters and academically drop anyone who had N number of absences because experience indicated those students needed the strong message to either appeal with emergency paperwork (generally resulting in a refund of financial aid and automatic enrollment rollover to next term) or go do something else with their time for a couple terms.

The tuition-driven private college, though, required instructors to report struggling students to the student success people so someone could reach out and provide tutoring, counseling, or something to help the students get back on the path to success.

Again, if the majority of students need help you are unable or unwilling to give, then you need to find another job.  Now is a great time to be looking for academic and non-academic jobs.
Quote from: hmaria1609 on June 27, 2019, 07:07:43 PM
Do whatever you want--I'm just the background dancer in your show!

Caracal

Quote from: hamburger on August 28, 2019, 05:51:30 AM
Several students have told me that people just buy doctor's notes without real sickness to achieve what they want.

Is teaching at university better than teaching at CC? Do university students also call themselves customers, feel entitled, make all sorts of demands and complain directly to the department anytime they like in an attempt to get the marks they want?

Sure, sometimes. Teaching students does involve dealing with them. Most of them are perfectly reasonable people, but some of them are irritating...

The bigger issue is that I suspect your attitude is making things worse. If you have reasonable rules, make those clear in advance and remind students of them in a friendly way when they ask for some exception you don't want to give, you can keep the little stuff from escalating. If you come across as defensive and angry to your students, they won't think you're in control and they may go looking for someone who is. Classroom management isn't just about having a bunch of rules and hectoring students. You want to seem like (and be!) a reasonable person who is happy to listen to students and help them figure out problems. That doesn't mean being a pushover, but it does mean not coming across as a standoffish person whom they can't talk to.

Scout

Quote from: hamburger on August 28, 2019, 05:51:30 AM
Several students have told me that people just buy doctor's notes without real sickness to achieve what they want.

Is teaching at university better than teaching at CC? Do university students also call themselves customers, feel entitled, make all sorts of demands and complain directly to the department anytime they like in an attempt to get the marks they want?

So doctor's note policy you can't change. Accept it and move on. What do you want to hear from us?

If you fix the things you can change, the stuff you can't won't be so annoying.

What is something you can change, and are willing to change?

Myword

I taught a difficult subject for a long time in community colleges, four year colleges and a  university and what the OP states is true. I experienced this, but not the doctor's notes. Your attitude makes no difference and how much time and work you put in also doesn't matter. I was working so many hours, when I saw my paycheck, it felt like a volunteer job. The mediocre university was no better than the affluent community college (that had students from very good high schools) Traditional or adult students both. Adults were more insolent and entitled than the younger ones. Adult students are more conscientious and prompt but their work was usually no better.
Entitled to an A because then their employer would pay for the course.
Rampant cheating, disrespect, laziness, etc. I needed the money so I continued with no appreciation from anyone. Evaluations were crucial.So knock yourself out, see if anyone cares.

The most important thing everyone expected was high grade inflation--keep them happy. Make it easy to get A and B. Let the class out early and they won't complain. I knew  part-timers who gave them snacks, lox and bagels, pizza, etc. Show lots of films.
About 10% did excellent work.

Scout

For a different perspective, I taught for 12 years at a CC, first as an adjunct and then as full-time, eventually as chair. I taught in the sciences (everything from beginner bio, to organic chem, biochem, molecular biology, genetics etc). My students were pre-nursing and students looking to transfer as science majors.

The vast majority of my students were terrific, committed, and great to have in class. They also has complexities in their lives I could not even begin to imagine (parents actively undermining their college attempt, abuse, legal problems, poverty, homelessness, and more). Some were underprepared and unmotivated.

We taught courses with rigor and maintained high expectations and grading. What did do was more scaffolding, support opportunities, and made clearer connections between the courses and their future plans. Folks who taught developmental math and English had it much harder than we did, but our students did come from a range of preparedness. A big one was being unfamiliar with colleges as bureaucracies- they didn't know how to advocate for themselves or what was appropriate advocacy.

So, I've been where our OP is and fully get the challenges. I just think there are things they are bringing to the table that may be making the situation worse for himself.

Ruralguy

The last several posts really get to the point: I think the OP may be making a bad situation worse.

Some 4 year colleges might be a little better in terms of general student commitment and adherence to values; however, I think you'd see some elements of these issues everywhere. OP and others  have to learn some coping strategies and not accelerate every student complaint. Calming down angry folks is key. Generally being pleasant and accepting without being a pushover is also key.

downer

OP. You have minimal control over other people. My guess is that you would be unhappy wherever you are with your current approach.

Try reading the Stoics. That might help.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."—Sinclair Lewis