The Fora: A Higher Education Community

General Category => The State of Higher Ed => Topic started by: Hibush on May 17, 2019, 05:35:11 PM

Title: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 17, 2019, 05:35:11 PM
This thread was started by Spork nine years ago and has had a steady supply of new content.

Link (https://www.chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,72798.msg1713260.html#msg1713260)
Quote from: spork on October 15, 2010, 02:55:00 AM
I thought it would be good to discuss which schools have financial woes in a single thread.  Post as a sockpuppet if you want.

First off, more news from Birmingham Southern College (http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2010/10/birmingham-southern_colleges_b.html), which as been discussed extensively in this thread (http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,70630.0.html). Looks like the president who was forced to resign may have received a $2.5 million golden parachute.

The most recent entry from the old site brings up a new university.

Link (https://www.chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,72798.msg3645594.html#msg3645594)
Quote from: Cheerful on May 17, 2019, 03:23:57 PM
Eastern Mich University offers buyouts to faculty, staff after prior layoffs, job cuts.

The buyout is up to a year's salary but they'll pay it monthly over FIVE years into retirement accounts.

"Eastern, like other Michigan universities, has faced a steep decline in credit hours being taken by a falling number of students and has several steps to try to stabilize the budget and pay for upgrades, including privatizing a number of services."

https://www.freep.com/story/news/education/2019/05/16/eastern-michigan-university-buyouts-faculty-staff/3694401002/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 17, 2019, 05:53:23 PM
Thank you for re-starting this thread.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apostrophe on May 17, 2019, 06:38:32 PM
+1
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on May 17, 2019, 06:41:09 PM
A very important thread.

EMU hits close to home; several good friends work there.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 21, 2019, 03:16:28 AM
Enrollment declines spread to higher tier private institutions: https://www.chronicle.com/article/enrollment-shortfalls-spread/246341/?key=HI0G__j9xid1wSeqaH-M7iq1V3A7vMOcUeZ4AogupR6T3Gngey_NdYHtxB_4RNqBZlJxZElnc3Jzb1NpNjZXVkRRRnYwX1BwQkJDMnNJVTNWV0tKU3VqT29zOA#.XOPMlWt5btM.twitter (https://www.chronicle.com/article/enrollment-shortfalls-spread/246341/?key=HI0G__j9xid1wSeqaH-M7iq1V3A7vMOcUeZ4AogupR6T3Gngey_NdYHtxB_4RNqBZlJxZElnc3Jzb1NpNjZXVkRRRnYwX1BwQkJDMnNJVTNWV0tKU3VqT29zOA#.XOPMlWt5btM.twitter).

(Twitter-derived link, not sure how long it will remain active).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Scout on May 21, 2019, 07:59:29 AM
Quote from: spork on May 21, 2019, 03:16:28 AM
Enrollment declines spread to higher tier private institutions: https://www.chronicle.com/article/enrollment-shortfalls-spread/246341/?key=HI0G__j9xid1wSeqaH-M7iq1V3A7vMOcUeZ4AogupR6T3Gngey_NdYHtxB_4RNqBZlJxZElnc3Jzb1NpNjZXVkRRRnYwX1BwQkJDMnNJVTNWV0tKU3VqT29zOA#.XOPMlWt5btM.twitter (https://www.chronicle.com/article/enrollment-shortfalls-spread/246341/?key=HI0G__j9xid1wSeqaH-M7iq1V3A7vMOcUeZ4AogupR6T3Gngey_NdYHtxB_4RNqBZlJxZElnc3Jzb1NpNjZXVkRRRnYwX1BwQkJDMnNJVTNWV0tKU3VqT29zOA#.XOPMlWt5btM.twitter).

(Twitter-derived link, not sure how long it will remain active).

Just in case, here's one from LinkedIn

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Enrollment-Shortfalls-Spread/246341?key=HI0G__j9xid1wSeqaH-M7mNFlrkHQzpYv1P8vOStX2eZZZpbxO55-uDLtIFJjp4-N0xsZXlRM2ZHanU3R1JubnRVN3ZrTHBaSnMwS3dEYmdWNDlJcEZzdWZCMA
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 21, 2019, 08:27:13 AM
Quote from: spork on May 21, 2019, 03:16:28 AM
Enrollment declines spread to higher tier private institutions: (https://www.chronicle.com/article/enrollment-shortfalls-spread/246341/?key=HI0G__j9xid1wSeqaH-M7iq1V3A7vMOcUeZ4AogupR6T3Gngey_NdYHtxB_4RNqBZlJxZElnc3Jzb1NpNjZXVkRRRnYwX1BwQkJDMnNJVTNWV0tKU3VqT29zOA#.XOPMlWt5btM.twitter).


This article emphasizes Bucknell and Ithaca College, both of which found the last few admits would have needed a bigger discount than they could afford.  These places are in a region (rural Pennsylvania and adjacent Appalachian New York) that is supersaturated with small colleges (both public and private) and has a local population that is declining in both size and interest in higher education. The top institutions draw from outside the region, but it is still a really tough market.

Bucknell noted that Penn State, not other small privates, is the main competitor. Penn State gets a little support from the state, but among the lowest in the country. So it can't underprice the privates by that much.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: SLAC_Prof on May 21, 2019, 08:45:42 AM
Another reality of this shift: while marginal institutions may in fact close, and others will get smaller (are already), still more will have to shift their missions to stay open. My own school is seeing a shift in who we enroll, and a relatively sudden one, as we strive to recruit from outside our home region (midwest) and to diversify. The problem is that many of the new(er) admits are not prepared for college in the same way as our traditional enrollment base, but we have not adjusted the curriculum nor provided any additional faculty development. We have no remedial courses and faculty are not trained in remediation, yet we now have 10-15% of students in a given class clearly unprepared for college to the same extent as our students even five years ago. This is creating a serious problem: faculty are struggling to pull up these less-well-prepared students while simultaneously not losing the top 15% that are still enrolling.  I have found it very challenging to have students with, for example, 30+ ACTs and those with ~20 ACTs in the same class doing the same assignments-- and the students have expressed their concerns as well. For example, I've had to spread out reading assignments...so now I have 1/5th of the class finishing a novel in a week while another 5th takes three weeks to read the same text and still lags in comprehension. Or peers reviewing essays where one might need a bit of reframing of the introduction while the other is struggling to reach a junior-high-school level of mechanics and grammar.

I assume this is happening or will happen at more schools. How we deal with it is currently not even being discussed by administration on my campus-- faculty are simply shaking their ends at end-of-semester and sharing tales of grade distributions that have suddenly gone from bell curves to flat lines, and unprecedented numbers of students who simply chose not to submit assignments or in some cases even attend classes regularly. So clearly retention and persistence to graduation will start to slump before long as well.

Not dire financial straits (yet) but already stumbling into dire functional straits in our case. I fear leadership simply isn't prepared to deal with this, at least not on my campus and not in the short term.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Tenured_Feminist on May 22, 2019, 06:50:09 AM
SLAC_Prof, we are dealing with the same thing at my public R1 urban school. We were and are not prepared to handle it.

https://thelinfieldreview.com/21810/archive/news/years-end-means-losing-faculty/ (https://thelinfieldreview.com/21810/archive/news/years-end-means-losing-faculty/) Oregon's Linfield College looks close to death spiral.

Seems that Ithaca and Bucknell share the problem of being close to a competitor institution that's likely chasing enrollments to these colleges' detriment. (Ithaca - Cornell, Bucknell - Penn State.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apostrophe on May 22, 2019, 01:42:57 PM
Quote from: Tenured_Feminist on May 22, 2019, 06:50:09 AM
https://thelinfieldreview.com/21810/archive/news/years-end-means-losing-faculty/ (https://thelinfieldreview.com/21810/archive/news/years-end-means-losing-faculty/) Oregon's Linfield College looks close to death spiral.

"This balanced budget required roughly $2.57 million in position reductions. These reductions are split between staff and faculty and they're split in the following way: $280,000 in staff and $2.3 million in faculty." - that does not look good (my emphasis).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on May 23, 2019, 12:29:53 PM
Another article in the Linfield student paper talks about the closing of dorms. A third dorm will be closed this year, with 2 having been closed the previous year.  Sad to see, I applied for job there almost a decade ago, and thought it would be a nice place to work.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on May 23, 2019, 12:46:45 PM
Double post, but I found this interesting from the Linfield wikipedia page:
   "For six consecutive years, as of 2006, Linfield was named the No. 1 college in the western region by US News & World Report for the Comprehensive Colleges-Bachelor's category.[9] In the U.S. News and World Report College Rankings for 2007, Linfield College was recategorized and ranked as a Liberal Arts College in a restructuring of rankings.[10] In 2011, it was ranked 121st among liberal arts colleges."

I wonder if this shift in category had an effect on their recruitment? It's a big hit to no longer be able to say "We're #1", and it can be very different types of students who are looking for SLAC vs a comprehensive U. This, right at the depth of the recession, might have been the start of a steep slide in enrollment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 23, 2019, 01:14:44 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on May 23, 2019, 12:46:45 PM
Double post, but I found this interesting from the Linfield wikipedia page:
   "For six consecutive years, as of 2006, Linfield was named the No. 1 college in the western region by US News & World Report for the Comprehensive Colleges-Bachelor's category.[9] In the U.S. News and World Report College Rankings for 2007, Linfield College was recategorized and ranked as a Liberal Arts College in a restructuring of rankings.[10] In 2011, it was ranked 121st among liberal arts colleges."



I'm wondering if the recategorization indicated a narrowing of offerings, and then  over the next 4 years things kept going downhill. Anyone know how/why an institution would get recategorized?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Tenured_Feminist on May 23, 2019, 02:28:31 PM
I think it would be almost impossible, given the timing, to disentangle the effect of the rejiggering of the rankings from the financial crisis.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 23, 2019, 02:48:21 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 23, 2019, 01:14:44 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on May 23, 2019, 12:46:45 PM
Double post, but I found this interesting from the Linfield wikipedia page:
   "For six consecutive years, as of 2006, Linfield was named the No. 1 college in the western region by US News & World Report for the Comprehensive Colleges-Bachelor's category.[9] In the U.S. News and World Report College Rankings for 2007, Linfield College was recategorized and ranked as a Liberal Arts College in a restructuring of rankings.[10] In 2011, it was ranked 121st among liberal arts colleges."



I'm wondering if the recategorization indicated a narrowing of offerings, and then  over the next 4 years things kept going downhill. Anyone know how/why an institution would get recategorized?

Institutions get re-categorized when the profit-seeking entities that generate the rankings, like U.S. News & World Report, adopt new scoring systems in an effort to prevent additional publicity about the rankings being gamed and fraudulent. The only market segment that pays any attention to these rankings are international students.

Linfield College's main campus undergraduate FTE enrollment fell from 1800 in 2006-07 to 1660 in 2016-17. It's online undergrad FTE fell from 280 to 176 during the same period. It's nursing program enrollment in Portland was flat. My guess is that non-nursing enrollment numbers continued to drop over the last two years.

If the numbers in the article about Linfield are correct, the college's administration wants to eliminate about one-fifth of the college's full-time/tenure-stream faculty. Probably the only positions that are secure are those in nursing and business studies. Expect entire majors/departments to be wiped out.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: SLAC_Prof on May 23, 2019, 03:00:46 PM
Linfield College's main campus undergraduate FTE enrollment fell from 1800 in 2006-07 to 1660 in 2016-17.

Note that more recent reports (2019) suggest enrollments have fallen further, to around 1,250. That's a 25% drop in just two years.

I wonder how/if their major distribution changed though. Even in the 1980s Linfield was perceived as a business/nursing/pre-law sort of school, not really a liberal arts focus like some of the other Oregon privates. If enrollments shifted even more toward those (and other) pre-professional majors, that could have resulted in a reclassification by Carnegie and a change in perception within the market. The hints from the AAUP article on the cuts suggest they are aiming at languages, journalism, and humanities faculty rather than business. If Linfield followed the general trend after 2009 in terms of declining majors in those areas, that could be the path they are now on.

The closing dorms are another issue. Losing residents is a major blow to the bottom line, as revenue from auxiliary operations (room and board esp) would either be going to debt service (if the buildings were bonded) or into general operating funds. If they are closing that many dorms it sounds like their residence life program is in trouble, which would not only impact revenues but would hurt recruiting among the types of students you'd want at a "residential" liberal arts college.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 23, 2019, 06:23:25 PM
Anyone else see the Inside Higher Ed article on early warning signs of financial trouble and almost hurt themselves nodding along?

https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2019/05/23/early-warning-signs-financial-trouble-institutions-often-miss-opinion
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on May 24, 2019, 03:00:29 AM
Very insightful.

Thanks for flagging it.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 26, 2019, 03:31:01 AM
In my last comment about Linfield College, I wasn't entirely clear. Assuming Linfield's survival strategy rests on eliminating liberal arts offerings, preserving its nursing program in Portland (where enrollment has been flat), and building up its on-campus and online business programs (where, given IPEDS data, enrollment has probably declined), it's not going to work.

Why enroll in a business studies major at a small, struggling, largely-unknown college when one can get the same degree online from a better-known university for less money? These small institutions can't rely on MBA programs as cash cows anymore, because the big schools with national reputations are moving them online. For example, U of Illinois: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/05/25/illinois-will-end-residential-mba-favor-online-program (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/05/25/illinois-will-end-residential-mba-favor-online-program). And it seems like the whole idea of the two-year post-bac MBA is in decline. In a similar vein, look how Iowa Wesleyan (previously discussed on this thread) is trying to survive -- three years at a local community college with one year of online courses for a bachelor's in business studies: https://rochellenews-leader.com/article/3-1-articulation-announced-between-kishwaukee-college-and-iowa-wesleyan-university (https://rochellenews-leader.com/article/3-1-articulation-announced-between-kishwaukee-college-and-iowa-wesleyan-university). The chances of this kind of articulation agreement pulling a place like Iowa Wesleyan back from the brink are slim to none.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Tenured_Feminist on May 26, 2019, 07:29:09 AM
They've been hanging on in part by having some very strong D3 sports programs, but you can't populate an entire college with D3 athletes who are willing to pay full freight.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 26, 2019, 07:35:05 AM
Quote from: Tenured_Feminist on May 26, 2019, 07:29:09 AM
They've been hanging on in part by having some very strong D3 sports programs, but you can't populate an entire college with D3 athletes who are willing to pay full freight.

How big is that market? There must be enough to have it be 10% of the class at nearly a league's worth of D3 colleges. Or would it be one college per league, á la St. Thomas?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 28, 2019, 05:32:12 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 26, 2019, 07:35:05 AM
Quote from: Tenured_Feminist on May 26, 2019, 07:29:09 AM
They've been hanging on in part by having some very strong D3 sports programs, but you can't populate an entire college with D3 athletes who are willing to pay full freight.

How big is that market? There must be enough to have it be 10% of the class at nearly a league's worth of D3 colleges. Or would it be one college per league, á la St. Thomas?

My last institution had about 70% of the student body as D3 athletes at some point during the students' time at the college.  More of them than I expected were paying full freight, but it still wasn't anything like a quarter of the student body paying full freight.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on May 30, 2019, 09:32:39 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 28, 2019, 05:32:12 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 26, 2019, 07:35:05 AM
Quote from: Tenured_Feminist on May 26, 2019, 07:29:09 AM
They've been hanging on in part by having some very strong D3 sports programs, but you can't populate an entire college with D3 athletes who are willing to pay full freight.

How big is that market? There must be enough to have it be 10% of the class at nearly a league's worth of D3 colleges. Or would it be one college per league, á la St. Thomas?

My last institution had about 70% of the student body as D3 athletes at some point during the students' time at the college.  More of them than I expected were paying full freight, but it still wasn't anything like a quarter of the student body paying full freight.

My current (D3) place has about 60% per year; so, maybe 80% at some point over 4 years. Almost nobody is paying full freight, but that's because summer scholarships are routine, and most of the students are required to do summer courses. Maybe 10% of the freshman class would not come if there were no sports.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 30, 2019, 02:31:35 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on May 30, 2019, 09:32:39 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 28, 2019, 05:32:12 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 26, 2019, 07:35:05 AM
Quote from: Tenured_Feminist on May 26, 2019, 07:29:09 AM
They've been hanging on in part by having some very strong D3 sports programs, but you can't populate an entire college with D3 athletes who are willing to pay full freight.

How big is that market? There must be enough to have it be 10% of the class at nearly a league's worth of D3 colleges. Or would it be one college per league, á la St. Thomas?

My last institution had about 70% of the student body as D3 athletes at some point during the students' time at the college.  More of them than I expected were paying full freight, but it still wasn't anything like a quarter of the student body paying full freight.

My current (D3) place has about 60% per year; so, maybe 80% at some point over 4 years. Almost nobody is paying full freight, but that's because summer scholarships are routine, and most of the students are required to do summer courses. Maybe 10% of the freshman class would not come if there were no sports.
If those 10% are there for the sports and paying full tuition, that's a good deal for the college. If they weren't there, they would be replaced by students at the maximum discount, or minimum academics.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 01, 2019, 04:55:54 AM
There is a CHE article (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Virginia-Tech-Has-1000-More/246416) (and elsewhere too) about a rural school in Virginia that is not in dire enrollment straits. That would be Virginia Tech. They ended up with 1000 more students accepting admission than they have space. This school is clearly an example of what works, despite having many of the characteristics that are predictors of dire financial straits.

One amazing claim is that students were drawn by the prospect of a computer-science based satellite campus in Alexandria, near Amazon HQ2. While that opportunity sounds good, these students will be long graduated before that campus opens.  Computer science is of course the juggernaut at many schools. "Blacksburg will make 100 to 120 new computer-science faculty hires in the next five years and expand by 2,000 students in that discipline over the next eight years."

That is a lot of hiring! Consider that there are 40 or 50 other universities that are as good as or better than Tech in CS, things must be looking good for new PhDs who have that thousands of faculty openings as well as competing industry offers.

Most struggling schools don't have a vibrant computer-science major as an alternative. What else is Tech doing that is brining in so many applicants, and getting a superior yield? They are still far from the big city, still dependent on an unpredictable legislature, and in a region with lots of competition.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 01, 2019, 07:14:37 AM
Hibush, what predictors of dire financial straits do you think Virginia Tech has?

1) Virginia Tech is rural, but not tiny, with a planned incoming class of 7000 and a total enrollment of more than 25k.  The predictor I associate with dire financial straits is having an enrollment of less than 2000.

2) Virginia Tech has a billion dollars in their endowment.  The predictor I associate with dire financial straits is having an endowment of a few million.  It's true, though, that a billion dollars is less than VT's annual budget of $1.6 billion, so that is a concern, but the $34k endowment value/student that exceeds the annual tuition per student is less concerning. (https://vt.edu/about/facts-about-virginia-tech.html)

3) Virginia Tech may have many institutions within a two-hour drive, but Virginia Tech is known for being an excellent engineering school that does high level research.  The predictor I associate with dire financial straits is having the same mission as nearly all the other institutions in the region and thus having nothing that stands out.

3a) Virginia Tech is ranked by US News and World Report as a National University (i.e., pulls from more than just locally) with similar entries on the list being Florida State University, Fordham University, Stevens Institution of Technology, University of California--Santa Cruz, University of Massachusetts-Amherst, University of Pittsburgh, University of Minnesota--Twin Cities, American University, Baylor University, Binghampton University SUNY, Colorado School of Mines and North Carolina State University-Raleigh. 

University of Virginia does rank much higher in that same category, but is smaller, slightly more expensive, and bills itself as fostering an undergrad life more like a S(mall) LAC.

3b) Virginia Tech has a Carnegie classification of Doctoral University with high graduate coexistence.  Similar institutions include Clemson, Georgia Tech, LSU, New Jersey Institute of Technology, Ohio State, Rensselaer, and Texas Tech.

For comparison, I worry about institutions like Quincy University.

From College Scorecard



Category          VT          Quincy University
Average Annual Cost     $20k          $17k
Graduation Rate     84%     48%
10-year median salary     $63k     $40k
Undergrad enrollment     27k     900
Pell     16%     32%
ACT     25-30     19-24
SAT reading     590-670     410-610
SAT math     590-690     460-540

What is Virginia Tech doing that is working?  They admit highly prepared students who are engaged with their education where faculty do world-class research alongside their large undergrad offerings in some of the most popular subjects for bachelor's degrees in an appealing geographic location that is non-urban, but isn't blink-and-you'll-miss-it-tiny.

Why are so many other rural colleges struggling?  Because they are tiny, serve only the local region that is declining in overall population and college age, have an ever-growing academically underprepared population who struggle financially, and are generally indistinguishable in major offerings from other institutions and usually without the investment in engineering and business degrees that are nationally the most popular entering majors.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 01, 2019, 01:10:38 PM
Thanks for laying out the contrast so clearly. I see schools like Tech and, especially, other big land grants getting a huge number of the students that the struggling schools are missing. By the numbers, Tech could swallow Quincy whole with nary a burp. (The students would probably struggle, but that's a different story.)

We hear about the crisis of schools with tiny numbers getting even tinier numbers of students, and the opposite crisis of students unable to get in to the few fancy places that have tiny admissions percentages. The vast middle is getting enrollment growth.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on June 06, 2019, 07:24:44 PM
I don't think this news about enrollment problems and planned academic restructuring at Millsaps College has been posted yet:

https://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/politics/2019/05/22/millsaps-college-jackson-mississippi-cuts-majors-programs/3692545002/

Millsaps is one of the finest SLAC in the South and was featured in outlets such as "Colleges That Change Lives" as late as early 2010s (haven't checked it recently). Very sorry to hear that it is also facing financial troubles, but it is certainly not unique as many SLACs located in small-town/rural setting are experiencing this problem nationwide.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: rth253 on June 08, 2019, 10:27:55 AM
What do you all think of Vermont's strategy to combine Johnson State College (enrollment=~1400) with Lyndon State College (enrollment=~1100) into Northern Vermont University while maintaining the two separate campuses?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on June 08, 2019, 10:33:14 AM
At first (when referred to on this thread's ancestral predecessor) I thought it was a joke about 1960s-70s political figures.

If they merged with Brattleboro, they could all keep their names and go by the moniker "LBJ"....

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 08, 2019, 11:15:35 AM
Quote from: rth253 on June 08, 2019, 10:27:55 AM
What do you all think of Vermont's strategy to combine Johnson State College (enrollment=~1400) with Lyndon State College (enrollment=~1100) into Northern Vermont University while maintaining the two separate campuses?

I think that's a bad idea that misunderstands how leveraging synergies while avoiding duplication works.  That seems to me like adding an additional set of complications while retaining all the drawbacks of being a smallish institution.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 09, 2019, 05:43:46 PM
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-usc-social-work-20190606-story.html

It turns out the USC online master's degree of social work program is losing money and facing big cuts in faculty.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 10, 2019, 05:00:54 AM
Ohio Northern University is laying off faculty and staff and cutting programs to save $4-8M (https://www.apnews.com/b55bcf53686143cba58ff5296e1ad90f)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on June 10, 2019, 10:58:42 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 10, 2019, 05:00:54 AM
Ohio Northern University is laying off faculty and staff and cutting programs to save $4-8M (https://www.apnews.com/b55bcf53686143cba58ff5296e1ad90f)

Clicking through to the linked story, the total number of positions eliminated is 51 (35 currently unfilled positions will never be filled) and they're cutting 10 programs. The financial problems must be severe for a school of that size to cut so much.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 10, 2019, 11:35:40 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on June 10, 2019, 10:58:42 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 10, 2019, 05:00:54 AM
Ohio Northern University is laying off faculty and staff and cutting programs to save $4-8M (https://www.apnews.com/b55bcf53686143cba58ff5296e1ad90f)

Clicking through to the linked story, the total number of positions eliminated is 51 (35 currently unfilled positions will never be filled) and they're cutting 10 programs. The financial problems must be severe for a school of that size to cut so much.
If eliminating 10 programs only affects 45 students, it must not be that drastic.
One of the eliminated programs is Master of Law. I have been led to understand that that is one of several law-related programs that bring in a significant tuition without providing the student with any expanded career opportunities. If so, that cynical effort to raise cash won't be missed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on June 10, 2019, 12:45:00 PM
Quote from: Hibush on June 10, 2019, 11:35:40 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on June 10, 2019, 10:58:42 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 10, 2019, 05:00:54 AM
Ohio Northern University is laying off faculty and staff and cutting programs to save $4-8M (https://www.apnews.com/b55bcf53686143cba58ff5296e1ad90f)

Clicking through to the linked story, the total number of positions eliminated is 51 (35 currently unfilled positions will never be filled) and they're cutting 10 programs. The financial problems must be severe for a school of that size to cut so much.
If eliminating 10 programs only affects 45 students, it must not be that drastic.
One of the eliminated programs is Master of Law. I have been led to understand that that is one of several law-related programs that bring in a significant tuition without providing the student with any expanded career opportunities. If so, that cynical effort to raise cash won't be missed.

They will let current students finish out their programs, so that measure doesn't capture the effects of the cuts. None of the 35 positions that won't be filled will affect current students (by definition) but it's still a drastic cut - their website claims 652 faculty and staff.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 10, 2019, 01:47:00 PM
The link to the local paper's story is https://www.limaohio.com/news/359144/onu-to-lay-off-16-cuts-10-programs (https://www.limaohio.com/news/359144/onu-to-lay-off-16-cuts-10-programs).

The story says ONU currently has 70 degree programs and it's eliminating 10 of those. My employer has 61 degree programs. According to IPEDS, the 2017 total FTE at ONU was ~ 3,000. For my employer, the figure was ~ 2,500. So roughly that's about the same number of degree programs across both institutions yet my employer has 17 percent fewer students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 10, 2019, 06:19:19 PM
Quote from: spork on June 10, 2019, 01:47:00 PM
The link to the local paper's story is https://www.limaohio.com/news/359144/onu-to-lay-off-16-cuts-10-programs (https://www.limaohio.com/news/359144/onu-to-lay-off-16-cuts-10-programs).

The story says ONU currently has 70 degree programs and it's eliminating 10 of those. My employer has 61 degree programs. According to IPEDS, the 2017 total FTE at ONU was ~ 3,000. For my employer, the figure was ~ 2,500. So roughly that's about the same number of degree programs across both institutions yet my employer has 17 percent fewer students.

What is a financially efficient size for a degree program at your place? The average is 40, or ten students per class. That seems small to me, in that you'd probably want to average 15 or so in each upper division course. It would also limit the number of offerings you might have in specialties.
But the bigger problem would the the programs with five students. That has to be expensive. And perhaps very big degree programs if they are really expensive (computer science could be such a program).

Do you have either of those expensive operations?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 11, 2019, 02:52:05 AM
Try two departments with a combined fourteen tenure-track faculty lines that between them graduate two or three majors per year. And a history department where tenure-track/tenured faculty teach 10-student upper-level courses instead of the 35-student 100-level courses.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 11, 2019, 03:29:17 AM
Wheeling-Jesuit's board of trustees: nest of snakes.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/06/11/tied-bishop-scandal-wheeling-jesuit-chairman-steps-down-months-after-exigency (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/06/11/tied-bishop-scandal-wheeling-jesuit-chairman-steps-down-months-after-exigency)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on June 11, 2019, 04:21:59 AM
Sorry to see that. Seriously disturbing.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 13, 2019, 01:40:47 AM
Marygrove College in Detroit shuts down:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/06/13/marygrove-college-detroit-announces-plans-close-amid-continuing-enrollment-declines (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/06/13/marygrove-college-detroit-announces-plans-close-amid-continuing-enrollment-declines).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 13, 2019, 04:37:36 AM
https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/illusion-solidity has an overview of how some colleges go from circling the drain for decades to closing.  Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 13, 2019, 08:12:47 AM
So Newbury and some of those other struggling little Boston-area colleges were originally family-owned for-profit trade schools that tried to reinvent themselves as more traditional four-year colleges.  Sounds like even before the economic downturn they were having a hard time trying to be something they really weren't.  "Circling the drain for decades" may be a bit of an overstatement in this case, but it has indeed evidently been a long, long time since they were truly thriving at what they originally did best.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on June 13, 2019, 08:36:53 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 13, 2019, 04:37:36 AM
https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/illusion-solidity has an overview of how some colleges go from circling the drain for decades to closing.  Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

There's also denial at a lot of large universities right now. Not for the most part in terms of shutting down, but for a financial crisis in the coming years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on June 14, 2019, 06:52:24 AM
Not higher ed, but Sears. 70 years to implode.

http://fortune.com/longform/sears-self-destruction/

TLDR, you can skip to the later part for this paragraph...

(T)op executives and the board became so desperate that they broke with a century of tradition and hired an outsider to run the place—Saks Fifth Avenue executive Arthur Martinez. He found an organization still in its dysfunctional mode. "It was inward-looking and upward-looking," he recalls. "Everything rose to the top. There was no accountability."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 17, 2019, 03:36:46 AM
Two majors and three minors ended at Elizabethtown College, plus furloughs, elimination of unfilled positions:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/06/17/elizabethtown-cuts-some-liberal-arts-programs (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/06/17/elizabethtown-cuts-some-liberal-arts-programs).

IPEDS shows Elizabethtown's undergraduate FTE enrollment fell by 16 percent from FY 2007 to FY 2017, to 1839.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Cheerful on June 17, 2019, 05:25:42 AM
Would be nice if journalists would identify the state when naming a college.  Elizabethtown College is in PA, had to look up on google.

Bye-bye philosophy and theater.  https://www.abc27.com/news/local/lancaster/elizabethtown-college-announces-program-staff-cuts/2077312400
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 17, 2019, 06:26:49 AM
Quote from: spork on June 17, 2019, 03:36:46 AM
Two majors and three minors ended at Elizabethtown College, plus furloughs, elimination of unfilled positions:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/06/17/elizabethtown-cuts-some-liberal-arts-programs (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/06/17/elizabethtown-cuts-some-liberal-arts-programs).

IPEDS shows Elizabethtown's undergraduate FTE enrollment fell by 16 percent from FY 2007 to FY 2017, to 1839.

The school claims that only 15 students were affected, so again this could be a reasonable realignment of effort from majors are not attracting enough students. Their popular majors are  Business, Health Professions, Biology, Engineering and Education, with 130 to nearly 300 maojrs. That mix looks pretty typical for a school of its type.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 17, 2019, 08:18:40 AM
There are very few U.S. colleges with an undergraduate FTE < 2,000 that have reputable engineering programs, which Elizabethtown College appears to have, given the engineering faculty listed on its website. Makes me wonder how a school that size can afford it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 17, 2019, 10:00:45 AM
Seminaries and former seminaries have been on this list a lot, mostly smaller and often Catholic schools whose base is shrinking.
Now comes word from a juggernaut:
Liberty laid of a dozen Divinity faculty (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/06/17/liberty-university-cuts-divinity-faculty) due to declining of enrollment. The resident numbers went from 1,078  in 2015 to 992 in 2018. The online program 19,727 to 13,688.  I don't know the student:faculty ratio they aim for in the online program. It is still huge.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on June 17, 2019, 06:42:04 PM
Sorry to hear this about Elizabethtown, a unique niche institution that also has a very strong and useful research center, again probably close to unique for the study of Anabaptist and Pietist groups, the home of the inestimable Donald Kraybill.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 24, 2019, 05:25:49 AM
St. Joseph School of Nursing in Providence, RI just closed last week with no notice (https://turnto10.com/news/local/st-joseph-school-of-nursing-closes-after-117-years) and clearly no plan.

The union president states:
Quote
"Faculty were told yesterday at 2 p.m. it was their last day," Blais said. "Pack up their offices, leave badges, leave keys, go home."

insidehighered.com links to a Facebook announcement that's no longer available (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/06/24/small-nursing-college-closes).  The only notice I can find on the college's webpage is a terse note in news that transcripts will be available during the summer (http://www.nursingri.com/news-and-events/post/attention-students1).

Other institutions that closed, even abruptly, tended to post a notice on their front page and take down the application forms for students and employment.  I wonder when St. Joseph School of Nursing will manage that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Trogdor on June 24, 2019, 05:43:55 AM
the St. Joseph's facebook announcement was available when I clicked on it.

The most heartbreaking part is the comments. They were cashing people's checks for application fees and deposits right up until the day they announced the closing, and now nobody is answering the phones. As one commenter suggests, cashing people's deposit checks when you know the place is closing is probably fraud.

If they don't get refunds, I'd be shocked if some of these closings don't result in lawsuits or prosecution.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 24, 2019, 07:24:30 AM
This seems to be a purely corporate decision -- shut down a "non-performing" unit within the hospital. I would not be surprised if it's tied to personnel cuts and/or the contract with the union that represents nurses on staff.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 26, 2019, 12:53:27 PM
No article to link to because it's behind a paywall, but Henderson State University in Arkansas has announced a hiring freeze.  Enrollment has been down in recent years, tuition discounts are up, and they apparently still owe millions of dollars on all that new construction they did some years back.  It's sad to see them having problems like this.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 26, 2019, 01:35:16 PM
Here ya go: https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2019/jun/26/henderson-state-freezes-hiring-in-face-/ (https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2019/jun/26/henderson-state-freezes-hiring-in-face-/).

The school holds $10 million in unpaid student debt? What the hell? Are they letting students attend without paying tuition?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: magnemite on June 26, 2019, 01:41:23 PM
parking fines?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Trogdor on June 26, 2019, 05:00:41 PM
Quote from: spork on June 26, 2019, 01:35:16 PM

The school holds $10 million in unpaid student debt? What the hell? Are they letting students attend without paying tuition?

I think they must be directly lending money to students, who are unable to pay it back.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 26, 2019, 05:28:40 PM
Quote from: Trogdor on June 26, 2019, 05:00:41 PM
Quote from: spork on June 26, 2019, 01:35:16 PM

The school holds $10 million in unpaid student debt? What the hell? Are they letting students attend without paying tuition?

I think they must be directly lending money to students, who are unable to pay it back.

I doubt the University of Arkansas system allows Henderson State to operate as if it were a corrupt Third World dictatorship in need of an IMF bailout.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: paddington_bear on June 26, 2019, 05:56:32 PM
Is there a way to find out if a school is in GOOD financial shape?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: merope on June 26, 2019, 08:07:53 PM
Quote from: spork on June 26, 2019, 01:35:16 PM
Here ya go: https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2019/jun/26/henderson-state-freezes-hiring-in-face-/ (https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2019/jun/26/henderson-state-freezes-hiring-in-face-/).

The school holds $10 million in unpaid student debt? What the hell? Are they letting students attend without paying tuition?

I could see that happening (maybe not the $10 million, but some) if they admitted students on partial financial aid who then dropped out midway through a semester -- and I could see admitting those students if the ultimate bottom line was focused on increasing enrolment by lowering admission standards.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 27, 2019, 05:29:33 AM
Quote from: paddington_bear on June 26, 2019, 05:56:32 PM
Is there a way to find out if a school is in GOOD financial shape?

The short version:

The longer version of what you're checking for (from https://www.chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,211761.msg3524825.html#msg3524825)

Quote from: polly_mer on March 18, 2017, 08:33:27 AM
Another unfortunate corollary is the numbers of students in this particular category of first-time/full-time may not be reflective of the college population.  One really interesting recent year, we had exactly 25 students in that category for our new freshman class.  The other 100+ new students didn't count as part of the new IPEDS cohort, but we were just pleased as punch that  our articulation efforts with regional community colleges were paying off as well as our new adult completion efforts and the flexibility of part-time enrollment (very new to us). 

Those 25 students had a rough time and we had to report dreadful graduation rates for that cohort.  However, the graduation rates for the new transfers in were well above 80% at the four-years-from-start-anywhere rates.  In short, we were getting students who were ready to succeed and knew why they were in college, which was better overall for us if we used that information to shape future decisions, as Benedictine University in Springfield did when they closed their traditional undergrad programs and focused on adult completion.

Using IPEDS to look at enrollment trends for the past few years may be more illuminating than graduation rates alone.  Having a 10% or more overall enrollment decrease in just a couple of years is more worrying, based on some of my research in IR, for long-term institutional stability than having low official graduation rates alone.

Were I looking at institutions as a potential employer, like San_Joaquin, I would look very closely at the strategic plan and the endowment, not necessarily graduation rates.  I would also use GuideStar to look at the last couple 990s or similar report from public institutions for the financials as well as the finance tab in IPEDS to ask questions like:

1) Are their heads currently enough above water that they are in an actual boat?  Are they on a raft and building a boat in a logical manner?  Are they in denial that the water is currently at their chin and they are hoping that a little bit of gravel added to the top of the rock on which they are standing will somehow allow them to keep at least one nostril above the water line in the next five years?

2) Does the institution have multiple viable income streams or is it nearly all tuition, fees, and auxiliary services (AKA dependent on enrollment)?  What percentage of those incomes streams are government-related and possibly shaky in the near term, especially in states that are looking to close projected budget shortfalls?

3) How does the debt load look compared to the income and endowment?  An enrollment-driven institution that has almost no debt will float along better in the near future than one that has fixed debt costs.

4) How does the distribution of core expenses look compared to expected from the claimed mission?  Again, do they look like they have a plan and are working from that plan or are they hoping a miracle occurs so they don't have to make decisions?

I would also check the Department of Education composite score reporting (https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/about/data-center/school/composite-scores, scroll down to the bottom) as well as the Heightened Cash Monitoring List (one from 2015 is http://www.chronicle.com/article/Dept-Names-More-Than-550/228957/).  Problems show up here faster than some other places.  Having a composite score below 1.5 isn't necessarily terrible.  Having one below 1.5 for the past five years is worrying.  I would also check College Score Card (https://collegescorecard.ed.gov) for students paying down their debt.  It's a terrible sign to have a very low repayment rate since that tends to indicate a large population of students who didn't get jobs and thus the likelihood for a (gaining) a reputation among those students who have options and who will vote with their feet for other institutions in a competitive higher ed market.

I would also go to the relevant accreditation site to check current status and when the next review is.  A lot of smaller institutions have been having red and yellow flags raised on finances and planning during reviews in the past few years, particularly under HLC revised criteria that now have planning based on information along with resource allocation as an area that can be not met in and of itself instead of merely being one factor for some other criterion.

While you may not be able to find an exact numerical answer to faculty turnover, you can do a quick scan of the last several catalogs with faculty and staff listings to see whether the same names appear in the current catalog as from five years ago and from ten years ago.  Some places are even nice enough to list a year of arrival so that a little easy math in a spreadsheet can yield information like median time at the institution and distribution of resident times.  Having a bimodal distribution (20+ years and 3 years) could be a huge red flag unless the institution's website is full of recent celebrations of retirements of whole departments all hired together 30+ years ago.

You can also use IPEDS to look for numbers and distributions of types of employees under the Human Resources heading.  Plotting numbers in certain categories for a few years will help you see if the institution is growing or whether another round of cuts would be par for the course.  Looking at distributions of categories would also help one answer the  overall question whether an institution has a plan with proper allocation of resources or whether they are cutting madly in some areas hoping something would save them without actual actions towards goals that will change the institution.  Having practically no support staff is bad; while you do need faculty, you can't run a college only on faculty and executive administrators.  Having a huge fraction of part-time faculty is a red flag; having a large fraction of full-time instructional faculty who are on annual contracts or less-than-annual contracts (last table under HR when looking up one institution) is not a good sign in most cases.

I would also check the institution's website.  Does it look like every other college website or does it tell a story about this special institution so you can't just replace Our College with Pretty Much Any Other College of This Size in the Region if you also white out the one specific gen ed novelty?  Do you have to look really hard to find a strategic plan, let alone any details on implementation actions, or is it pretty clear what the plan's goals are and specific actions being taken this year and next even without finding a document/webpage marked Strategic Plan?  Are there enough staff and resources to have some webpages being updated nearly weekly with items of interest to parts of the campus community or do you have to look really hard to find the one campus calendar that has some things listed and perhaps a news release page somewhere else?  It's pretty telling if the institution has no extra resources to even maintain a vibrant website and instead opts for one that is updated once per year only in the areas required by federal or state regulation.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 27, 2019, 07:43:52 AM
Quote from: magnemite on June 26, 2019, 01:41:23 PM
parking fines?

The parking situation in that part of town isn't THAT bad!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on July 01, 2019, 10:03:16 AM
The State of Alaska: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/07/01/imminent-massive-cuts-could-force-faculty-staff-layoffs-university-alaska-system?fbclid=IwAR0tU3F_zozJCK8oVUD8TiXwlrtSIPRxfG1WpHEOSXgwLwJYqdFpZf0zI5A (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/07/01/imminent-massive-cuts-could-force-faculty-staff-layoffs-university-alaska-system?fbclid=IwAR0tU3F_zozJCK8oVUD8TiXwlrtSIPRxfG1WpHEOSXgwLwJYqdFpZf0zI5A)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: onthefringe on July 01, 2019, 06:30:37 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on July 01, 2019, 10:03:16 AM
The State of Alaska: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/07/01/imminent-massive-cuts-could-force-faculty-staff-layoffs-university-alaska-system?fbclid=IwAR0tU3F_zozJCK8oVUD8TiXwlrtSIPRxfG1WpHEOSXgwLwJYqdFpZf0zI5A (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/07/01/imminent-massive-cuts-could-force-faculty-staff-layoffs-university-alaska-system?fbclid=IwAR0tU3F_zozJCK8oVUD8TiXwlrtSIPRxfG1WpHEOSXgwLwJYqdFpZf0zI5A)

Truly terrifying. Line item veto cuts state support U of Alaska budget by 41% (apparently in order to maintain dividend payouts from the Alaska Permanent First und.  The university President announced immediate travel and hiring freezes, says furlough notices will be going out to staff, and predicts job losses for 1300 faculty and staff.

But don't worry, some helpful people remind us (http://mustreadalaska.com/surprise-university-budget-is-not-being-cut-by-50-percent/) to stop whining because it's only a 17% cut of the total budget since only 40% of the budget comes from the state. Apparently this means Alaska is "over reliant" on the state, not that other states undersupport their university systems.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: octoprof on July 02, 2019, 07:57:58 AM
State universities are not state universities if the state doesn't support them significantly, surely.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on July 02, 2019, 09:34:58 AM
Quote from: octoprof on July 02, 2019, 07:57:58 AM
State universities are not state universities if the state doesn't support them significantly, surely.

I think that ship has sailed. The public is okay with 'state in name only' universities.

Public universities messed up IMO when the trend of defunding universities started. Their leaders took steps to prevent anyone outside the institution from seeing the effects. They increased class sizes, replaced tenure track lines with adjuncts, cut research, travel, and instructional support, and reduced library budgets because they were afraid (or unable) to raise tuition. Instead they lowered quality until it was no longer an option. The lack of middle class pain established university funding as the first choice to be cut when tax revenues were low or someone wanted to cut taxes. It might well have been different if universities had responded by cutting admission of in-state students by 30% and blaming it on the funding cuts. The middle class would have felt it when Johnnie Sixpack couldn't get into a four year public university, but that never happened.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 02, 2019, 04:25:13 PM
Hampshire College gets an incoming fall class of fifteen students:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2019/06/30/amid-turmoil-hampshire-college-just-take-leap-join-freshman-class/u6nmOLrqqjtEkRIJLRV9gN/story.html (https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2019/06/30/amid-turmoil-hampshire-college-just-take-leap-join-freshman-class/u6nmOLrqqjtEkRIJLRV9gN/story.html).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 03, 2019, 07:27:06 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on July 02, 2019, 09:34:58 AM
Quote from: octoprof on July 02, 2019, 07:57:58 AM
State universities are not state universities if the state doesn't support them significantly, surely.

I think that ship has sailed. The public is okay with 'state in name only' universities.

Public universities messed up IMO when the trend of defunding universities started. Their leaders took steps to prevent anyone outside the institution from seeing the effects. They increased class sizes, replaced tenure track lines with adjuncts, cut research, travel, and instructional support, and reduced library budgets because they were afraid (or unable) to raise tuition. Instead they lowered quality until it was no longer an option. The lack of middle class pain established university funding as the first choice to be cut when tax revenues were low or someone wanted to cut taxes. It might well have been different if universities had responded by cutting admission of in-state students by 30% and blaming it on the funding cuts. The middle class would have felt it when Johnnie Sixpack couldn't get into a four year public university, but that never happened.

That would have been a dangerous game to play, but with hindsight maybe it would have worked.  I know that libraries facing budget cuts are advised to make sure the patrons feel the cuts quickly through reduced hours and programming, so that they'll have an incentive to let Those In Control of the Funds know about it.  If your periodical budget has to be cut, the advice is to put notices in the empty spaces to the effect that these periodicals have been cut due to budget cuts.  Don't just let the materials and services go away quietly and hope nobody notices.  As the guy who came up with that particular bit of advice put it, "The only reward for being a doormat is to be replaced eventually by cheaper doormats."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: magnemite on July 03, 2019, 01:29:34 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 03, 2019, 07:27:06 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on July 02, 2019, 09:34:58 AM
Quote from: octoprof on July 02, 2019, 07:57:58 AM
State universities are not state universities if the state doesn't support them significantly, surely.

I think that ship has sailed. The public is okay with 'state in name only' universities.

Public universities messed up IMO when the trend of defunding universities started. Their leaders took steps to prevent anyone outside the institution from seeing the effects. They increased class sizes, replaced tenure track lines with adjuncts, cut research, travel, and instructional support, and reduced library budgets because they were afraid (or unable) to raise tuition. Instead they lowered quality until it was no longer an option. The lack of middle class pain established university funding as the first choice to be cut when tax revenues were low or someone wanted to cut taxes. It might well have been different if universities had responded by cutting admission of in-state students by 30% and blaming it on the funding cuts. The middle class would have felt it when Johnnie Sixpack couldn't get into a four year public university, but that never happened.

That would have been a dangerous game to play, but with hindsight maybe it would have worked.  I know that libraries facing budget cuts are advised to make sure the patrons feel the cuts quickly through reduced hours and programming, so that they'll have an incentive to let Those In Control of the Funds know about it.  If your periodical budget has to be cut, the advice is to put notices in the empty spaces to the effect that these periodicals have been cut due to budget cuts.  Don't just let the materials and services go away quietly and hope nobody notices.  As the guy who came up with that particular bit of advice put it, "The only reward for being a doormat is to be replaced eventually by cheaper doormats."

Yes, more push-back at times was needed and may have helped in some places. During the 2010 budget cuts, the Pokémon U president made a point of referring to us as a publically-purposed university- and some coordination of talking points among the compass-direction regionals here did help mitigate things, and we're drifted back up towards 50% state-funding. On a smaller scale, a few years ago our Comp Sci department told admissions that they would not accept a single transfer student one year- which was what it took to get the attention of the admin, so they would realize the same department cannot go from 50 to 400 majors without a lot more resources
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 06, 2019, 03:16:12 AM
Keystone College?

https://www.poconorecord.com/news/20190523/keystone-college-to-cut-staff-refocus-programs (https://www.poconorecord.com/news/20190523/keystone-college-to-cut-staff-refocus-programs)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 10, 2019, 06:10:58 AM
Alaska now has accreditation problems due to the large budget cuts: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/07/10/u-alaskas-accreditor-warns-funding-cuts-could-threaten-systems-status
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: OldHouseFan on July 10, 2019, 08:43:47 AM
Quote from: spork on June 26, 2019, 05:28:40 PM
Quote from: Trogdor on June 26, 2019, 05:00:41 PM
Quote from: spork on June 26, 2019, 01:35:16 PM

The school holds $10 million in unpaid student debt? What the hell? Are they letting students attend without paying tuition?

I think they must be directly lending money to students, who are unable to pay it back.

I doubt the University of Arkansas system allows Henderson State to operate as if it were a corrupt Third World dictatorship in need of an IMF bailout.

Henderson State is not (currently) affiliated with either the UA system or the ASU system. The governor has now given them access to a no-interest loan and suggested they consider affiliating with one of the systems. The Arkansas Democrat Gazette's reporting:

About nine out of 10 students receive financial aid, Jones said. He described the financial shortfall as resulting in part from efforts such as payment plans to help students afford college.

The school allowed students to carry unpaid balances of up to $4,800, Jones said, and ended up being owed about $4.5 million in debts students incurred in fiscal 2019.

"Clearly, the pendulum has swung too far in that direction," Jones said.

The limit for unpaid balances now is $2,500, Jones said, and may be lowered again in the fall of 2020.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 11, 2019, 12:16:45 PM
A new report (http://cdn.ey.com/parthenon/pdf/perspectives/P-EY_Strength-in-Numbers-Collaboration-Strategies_Paper_Final_082016.pdf) from a strategy consultant, Parthenon, classifies institutions by the number of risk factors for failing. The risk factors are chosen from a list of 10 developed at Vanderbilt (http://www.ticua.org.sitemason.com/public_policy/sm_files/Learning%20from%20Closed%20Institutions.pdf) a few years ago.

The number of institutions in the four groups gives a helpful perspective. They are classed by size and number of risk factors. (Small size is a risk factor as well.)



Large and thriving 538

Large and languishing
  70

Strong niche
932

Small and at risk
735   (122 of which have four or more risk factors)

It strikes me that there are a lot of "Strong niche" colleges that are making the small size work. That is an optimistic sign that small schools can stay out of dire financial straits. 
Furthermore, of the 735 small and at risk colleges, we are only seeing about 5 fail each year. That failure rate is a lot lower than for small-and-at-risk retailers and manufacturers.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 11, 2019, 04:21:55 PM
That report was released in 2016 and was mentioned, most recently, at Inside Higher Ed today.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 12, 2019, 10:46:35 AM
Quote from: spork on July 11, 2019, 04:21:55 PM
That report was released in 2016 and was mentioned, most recently, at Inside Higher Ed today.

The Inside Higher Ed piece is here (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2019/07/11/potential-indicator-colleges-may-face-major-financial-challenges-opinion). I have a sibling who works in a non-faculty capacity for a small university that resembles those discussed in the essay. The numbers for his employer, in terms of annual rate of change, were decreasing over time, which is good. But enrollment overall has declined somewhat.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pepsi_alum on July 12, 2019, 04:45:07 PM
An interesting article from The Atlantic about Yankton College (closed in 1984) being a precursor to college closures:

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/07/colleges-are-shutting-down-and-yankton-was-precursor/593809/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jackiekerouac on July 17, 2019, 02:59:22 PM
The entire U of Alaska system is about to be demolished by their Gov.  I hope other states don't decide to follow suit.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 19, 2019, 03:17:48 PM
More news from Alaska: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/07/19/faculty-group-alaskas-anchorage-campus-says-fairbanks-should-bear-brunt-state-cuts

It's looking grim.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on July 20, 2019, 02:35:46 PM
Meanwhile, back in California, the price of (ersatz) innovation...

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/California-s-online-community-college-plans-to-14109597.php
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Golazo on July 20, 2019, 02:58:16 PM
Cincinnati Christian: https://www.chronicle.com/article/Dire-Financial-Straits-/246735

QuoteSince 2015, the leaders of Cincinnati Christian University have made bold moves to try to reverse falling enrollment and flagging finances. The university spent big money on athletics, laid off staff and faculty members to cut costs, and revised its academic mission.

But instead of revitalizing the institution, those decisions are among the many that have pushed Cincinnati Christian toward the brink of financial ruin and put it at risk of losing its accreditation. The university has been hemorrhaging money even as it owes millions in debt it can't cover. At the same time, an effort to bolster enrollment has failed spectacularly, with double-digit drops in student retention and graduation rates

Nothing inherently wrong with athletics (thought a lot times it ends up of wrong), but NAIA football is not likely a money maker, and investing in athletics at the expense of academics is a good way to the death spiral (not to mention to governance issues)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 20, 2019, 04:44:01 PM
Quote from: Golazo on July 20, 2019, 02:58:16 PM
Cincinnati Christian: https://www.chronicle.com/article/Dire-Financial-Straits-/246735

QuoteSince 2015, the leaders of Cincinnati Christian University have made bold moves to try to reverse falling enrollment and flagging finances. The university spent big money on athletics, laid off staff and faculty members to cut costs, and revised its academic mission.

But instead of revitalizing the institution, those decisions are among the many that have pushed Cincinnati Christian toward the brink of financial ruin and put it at risk of losing its accreditation. The university has been hemorrhaging money even as it owes millions in debt it can't cover. At the same time, an effort to bolster enrollment has failed spectacularly, with double-digit drops in student retention and graduation rates

Nothing inherently wrong with athletics (thought a lot times it ends up of wrong), but NAIA football is not likely a money maker, and investing in athletics at the expense of academics is a good way to the death spiral (not to mention to governance issues)

Pulled this link to the story off Twitter. No paywall for now:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Dire-Financial-Straits-/246735?key=lZNp9FHkDfv6nyFEhWZrDUP3TWbE0z77QLb3gsyHC2ozlrjbb2cRryMhOlbj2yKaTWc1azVoVlQ3ZF95RVJXTjJuOE9pb3JmQzcxNUZmek9YQXV2MzcyYW8yVQ (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Dire-Financial-Straits-/246735?key=lZNp9FHkDfv6nyFEhWZrDUP3TWbE0z77QLb3gsyHC2ozlrjbb2cRryMhOlbj2yKaTWc1azVoVlQ3ZF95RVJXTjJuOE9pb3JmQzcxNUZmek9YQXV2MzcyYW8yVQ).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 20, 2019, 04:51:17 PM
Henderson State University's president resigns, effective immediately:

https://katv.com/news/local/henderson-state-university-president-submits-resignation (https://katv.com/news/local/henderson-state-university-president-submits-resignation).

How convenient that he can skip town for a year and return as a tenured faculty member.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: biop_grad on July 20, 2019, 08:28:56 PM
Quote from: spork on July 20, 2019, 04:51:17 PM
Henderson State University's president resigns, effective immediately:

https://katv.com/news/local/henderson-state-university-president-submits-resignation (https://katv.com/news/local/henderson-state-university-president-submits-resignation).

How convenient that he can skip town for a year and return as a tenured faculty member.

I wonder if it's part of a deal to get him to step down.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on July 21, 2019, 03:03:37 AM
Quote from: biop_grad on July 20, 2019, 08:28:56 PM
Quote from: spork on July 20, 2019, 04:51:17 PM
Henderson State University's president resigns, effective immediately:

https://katv.com/news/local/henderson-state-university-president-submits-resignation (https://katv.com/news/local/henderson-state-university-president-submits-resignation).

How convenient that he can skip town for a year and return as a tenured faculty member.

I wonder if it's part of a deal to get him to step down.

It's often part of the deal. "Returning to faculty" is the term around these parts. The idea is that if you want to promote from within, you have to offer a landing spot if things don't work out. It's the same reason that incoming Provosts/VPAA usually insist on tenure, and that department chairs usually have it. Corporate capitalism does it differently, with golden parachutes for failed executives, although they happen in academia, too.

You'll note, too, the lack of certainty about the return to faculty. Just as likely, the sabbatical will be used to hunt for another job; whether or not there's a clawback of salary if that happens depends a lot, I should think, on what deal got cut, and perhaps on what the auditors find.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 21, 2019, 07:35:09 AM
Quote from: spork on July 20, 2019, 04:44:01 PM
Quote from: Golazo on July 20, 2019, 02:58:16 PM
Cincinnati Christian: https://www.chronicle.com/article/Dire-Financial-Straits-/246735

QuoteSince 2015, the leaders of Cincinnati Christian University have made bold moves to try to reverse falling enrollment and flagging finances. The university spent big money on athletics, laid off staff and faculty members to cut costs, and revised its academic mission.

But instead of revitalizing the institution, those decisions are among the many that have pushed Cincinnati Christian toward the brink of financial ruin and put it at risk of losing its accreditation. The university has been hemorrhaging money even as it owes millions in debt it can't cover. At the same time, an effort to bolster enrollment has failed spectacularly, with double-digit drops in student retention and graduation rates

Nothing inherently wrong with athletics (thought a lot times it ends up of wrong), but NAIA football is not likely a money maker, and investing in athletics at the expense of academics is a good way to the death spiral (not to mention to governance issues)

Pulled this link to the story off Twitter. No paywall for now:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Dire-Financial-Straits-/246735?key=lZNp9FHkDfv6nyFEhWZrDUP3TWbE0z77QLb3gsyHC2ozlrjbb2cRryMhOlbj2yKaTWc1azVoVlQ3ZF95RVJXTjJuOE9pb3JmQzcxNUZmek9YQXV2MzcyYW8yVQ (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Dire-Financial-Straits-/246735?key=lZNp9FHkDfv6nyFEhWZrDUP3TWbE0z77QLb3gsyHC2ozlrjbb2cRryMhOlbj2yKaTWc1azVoVlQ3ZF95RVJXTjJuOE9pb3JmQzcxNUZmek9YQXV2MzcyYW8yVQ).

You can read the Show Cause letter at https://www.hlcommission.org/download/_BoardActionLetters/HLC%20Action%20Letter%20-%20Cincinnati%20Christian%20University%207.11.19.pdf .  The discussion at my house was how much worse off this institution was than Super Dinky College.

In particular,

Quote

The Institution does not meet Criterion Five, Core Component 5.A, "the institution's resource base supports its current educational programs and its plans for maintaining and strengthening their quality in the future," for the following reasons:

• In 2015, CCU's Board of Trustees implemented an aggressive Restructure Plan with a view to reversing deficit spending trends, right-sizing resource allocations to reflect current realities and future priorities, and ensuring the long-term financial viability of the mission. At that time, CCU had a pattern of deficit spending, with expenditures exceeding revenues from tuition and gifts by $350,000 per month. The plan called for expenditure reductions that eliminated about one-third of CCU's administrative staff and ten percent of the faculty. While the plan has forced changes to the operations of
CCU, the Institution remains financially fragile.

• The Institution monitors its operating cash position closely and has needed to utilize its operating line of credit every month during the past 12-month period. It also maximized its line of credit authorization of $1.7 million at least once during this period.

• For 2016, 2017 and 2018, the HLC Composite Financial Index (CFI) for CCU remained below 0.5 which for a private institution is "Below the Zone."

• In July 2018, the Office of Federal Student Aid of the U.S. Department of Education determined that CCU failed to meet the standards of financial responsibility. As a result, CCU posted a letter of credit.

• The June 30, 2018 Consolidated Financial Audit reports a decrease in total liabilities and net assets from $16,102,731 (2017) to $14,623,049 (2018).

• Note 19 of the aforementioned audit raised substantial doubt about CCU's ability to continue as a going concern due to recurring decreases in net assets.

The staffing situation is also absurd with
Quote
• CCU has 17 faculty who are primarily teaching faculty, as well as approximately 9 instructors who are considered part-time and teach, advise, and mentor students. In addition, approximately 40-70 adjuncts teach per semester. Evidence indicates that the number of individuals available to teach the FTE of 666 students may not be sufficient.

• Student surveys conducted over several years indicate that students were significantly impacted by the loss of faculty.

<snip>

• CCU has not provided sufficient evidence that it assesses the level of effectiveness and student satisfaction with disability services.

• Student satisfaction with technology resources on campus is declining, with the score in related surveys dropping from 1.80 in 2015 to 1.51 in 2017.

• Students report insufficient IT staff and computers in the labs.

• There does not appear to be any leadership for the IT department. Services are outsourced and CCU acknowledges that the contractor is not well-versed with classroom technology problems.

• Library staff for a FTE of 666 students includes one full-time librarian and one full-time administrative assistant. This staffing level is the same as in 2013 and 2015 before the Institution had a large influx of students, especially those on a conditional plan. Three additional staff are available and work on a part-time or hourly schedule, and it appears that two of the three staff are focused on the catalog backlog.

• CCU has not demonstrated it has sufficient library personnel to conduct library services for faculty and both undergraduate and graduate students.

<snip>

• The planning process has set a goal of 2,000 students, half of whom will be in online programs. CCU does not have online programs that will attract students, and those it attracts may be part-time enrollees.


So their plan is growing from 700 students to 2000 with a thousand online students when they have inadequate IT support.  Yeah, Show Cause seems appropriate.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 21, 2019, 07:48:10 AM
Perhaps this deserves a separate thread, but in cases like Cincinnati Christian, why aren't trustees legally held to account for breaches of fiduciary duty? Is it because "stupid" is not considered "illegal," and everything is labeled the former?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 21, 2019, 07:49:23 AM
Quote from: spork on July 21, 2019, 07:48:10 AM
Perhaps this deserves a separate thread, but in cases like Cincinnati Christian, why aren't trustees legally held to account for breaches of fiduciary duty? Is it because "stupid" is not considered "illegal," and everything is labeled the former?

My bet is that people don't know to file the lawsuits for breach of fiduciary duty until the college actually goes under.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Henri de Tonti on July 21, 2019, 10:48:06 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 21, 2019, 07:35:09 AM
Quote from: spork on July 20, 2019, 04:44:01 PM
Quote from: Golazo on July 20, 2019, 02:58:16 PM
Cincinnati Christian: https://www.chronicle.com/article/Dire-Financial-Straits-/246735

QuoteSince 2015, the leaders of Cincinnati Christian University have made bold moves to try to reverse falling enrollment and flagging finances. The university spent big money on athletics, laid off staff and faculty members to cut costs, and revised its academic mission.

But instead of revitalizing the institution, those decisions are among the many that have pushed Cincinnati Christian toward the brink of financial ruin and put it at risk of losing its accreditation. The university has been hemorrhaging money even as it owes millions in debt it can't cover. At the same time, an effort to bolster enrollment has failed spectacularly, with double-digit drops in student retention and graduation rates

Nothing inherently wrong with athletics (thought a lot times it ends up of wrong), but NAIA football is not likely a money maker, and investing in athletics at the expense of academics is a good way to the death spiral (not to mention to governance issues)

Pulled this link to the story off Twitter. No paywall for now:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Dire-Financial-Straits-/246735?key=lZNp9FHkDfv6nyFEhWZrDUP3TWbE0z77QLb3gsyHC2ozlrjbb2cRryMhOlbj2yKaTWc1azVoVlQ3ZF95RVJXTjJuOE9pb3JmQzcxNUZmek9YQXV2MzcyYW8yVQ (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Dire-Financial-Straits-/246735?key=lZNp9FHkDfv6nyFEhWZrDUP3TWbE0z77QLb3gsyHC2ozlrjbb2cRryMhOlbj2yKaTWc1azVoVlQ3ZF95RVJXTjJuOE9pb3JmQzcxNUZmek9YQXV2MzcyYW8yVQ).

You can read the Show Cause letter at https://www.hlcommission.org/download/_BoardActionLetters/HLC%20Action%20Letter%20-%20Cincinnati%20Christian%20University%207.11.19.pdf .  The discussion at my house was how much worse off this institution was than Super Dinky College.

In particular,

Quote

The Institution does not meet Criterion Five, Core Component 5.A, "the institution's resource base supports its current educational programs and its plans for maintaining and strengthening their quality in the future," for the following reasons:

• In 2015, CCU's Board of Trustees implemented an aggressive Restructure Plan with a view to reversing deficit spending trends, right-sizing resource allocations to reflect current realities and future priorities, and ensuring the long-term financial viability of the mission. At that time, CCU had a pattern of deficit spending, with expenditures exceeding revenues from tuition and gifts by $350,000 per month. The plan called for expenditure reductions that eliminated about one-third of CCU's administrative staff and ten percent of the faculty. While the plan has forced changes to the operations of
CCU, the Institution remains financially fragile.

• The Institution monitors its operating cash position closely and has needed to utilize its operating line of credit every month during the past 12-month period. It also maximized its line of credit authorization of $1.7 million at least once during this period.

• For 2016, 2017 and 2018, the HLC Composite Financial Index (CFI) for CCU remained below 0.5 which for a private institution is "Below the Zone."

• In July 2018, the Office of Federal Student Aid of the U.S. Department of Education determined that CCU failed to meet the standards of financial responsibility. As a result, CCU posted a letter of credit.

• The June 30, 2018 Consolidated Financial Audit reports a decrease in total liabilities and net assets from $16,102,731 (2017) to $14,623,049 (2018).

• Note 19 of the aforementioned audit raised substantial doubt about CCU's ability to continue as a going concern due to recurring decreases in net assets.

The staffing situation is also absurd with
Quote
• CCU has 17 faculty who are primarily teaching faculty, as well as approximately 9 instructors who are considered part-time and teach, advise, and mentor students. In addition, approximately 40-70 adjuncts teach per semester. Evidence indicates that the number of individuals available to teach the FTE of 666 students may not be sufficient.

• Student surveys conducted over several years indicate that students were significantly impacted by the loss of faculty.

<snip>

• CCU has not provided sufficient evidence that it assesses the level of effectiveness and student satisfaction with disability services.

• Student satisfaction with technology resources on campus is declining, with the score in related surveys dropping from 1.80 in 2015 to 1.51 in 2017.

• Students report insufficient IT staff and computers in the labs.

• There does not appear to be any leadership for the IT department. Services are outsourced and CCU acknowledges that the contractor is not well-versed with classroom technology problems.

• Library staff for a FTE of 666 students includes one full-time librarian and one full-time administrative assistant. This staffing level is the same as in 2013 and 2015 before the Institution had a large influx of students, especially those on a conditional plan. Three additional staff are available and work on a part-time or hourly schedule, and it appears that two of the three staff are focused on the catalog backlog.

• CCU has not demonstrated it has sufficient library personnel to conduct library services for faculty and both undergraduate and graduate students.

<snip>

• The planning process has set a goal of 2,000 students, half of whom will be in online programs. CCU does not have online programs that will attract students, and those it attracts may be part-time enrollees.


So their plan is growing from 700 students to 2000 with a thousand online students when they have inadequate IT support.  Yeah, Show Cause seems appropriate.

The auditor has doubts that it can be deemed a going concern. That's really bad
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pgher on July 21, 2019, 12:40:46 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 21, 2019, 07:49:23 AM
Quote from: spork on July 21, 2019, 07:48:10 AM
Perhaps this deserves a separate thread, but in cases like Cincinnati Christian, why aren't trustees legally held to account for breaches of fiduciary duty? Is it because "stupid" is not considered "illegal," and everything is labeled the former?

My bet is that people don't know to file the lawsuits for breach of fiduciary duty until the college actually goes under.

I would say it's what Spork says. Incompetence is not illegal. From https://definitions.uslegal.com/b/breach-of-fiduciary-duty/ (https://definitions.uslegal.com/b/breach-of-fiduciary-duty/)
Quote
When one person does agree to act for another in a fiduciary relationship, the law forbids the fiduciary from acting in any manner adverse or contrary to the interests of the client, or from acting for his own benefit in relation to the subject matter.
So it's illegal to purposely run an institution into the ground, or to make deals that benefit the trustees at the expense of the institution. It's not illegal to have a plan best described as "ludicrously optimistic wishful thinking."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on July 21, 2019, 02:29:26 PM
Quote from: pgher on July 21, 2019, 12:40:46 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 21, 2019, 07:49:23 AM
Quote from: spork on July 21, 2019, 07:48:10 AM
Perhaps this deserves a separate thread, but in cases like Cincinnati Christian, why aren't trustees legally held to account for breaches of fiduciary duty? Is it because "stupid" is not considered "illegal," and everything is labeled the former?

My bet is that people don't know to file the lawsuits for breach of fiduciary duty until the college actually goes under.

I would say it's what Spork says. Incompetence is not illegal. From https://definitions.uslegal.com/b/breach-of-fiduciary-duty/ (https://definitions.uslegal.com/b/breach-of-fiduciary-duty/)
Quote
When one person does agree to act for another in a fiduciary relationship, the law forbids the fiduciary from acting in any manner adverse or contrary to the interests of the client, or from acting for his own benefit in relation to the subject matter.
So it's illegal to purposely run an institution into the ground, or to make deals that benefit the trustees at the expense of the institution. It's not illegal to have a plan best described as "ludicrously optimistic wishful thinking."

3 years after Dowling College closed, creditors have just filed a $50M lawsuit against the trustees and other officials. It will be interesting to see how that works out.
https://www.newsday.com/long-island/education/dowling-college-bankruptcy-1.33415884

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pgher on July 22, 2019, 08:04:38 AM
Quote from: downer on July 21, 2019, 02:29:26 PM
Quote from: pgher on July 21, 2019, 12:40:46 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 21, 2019, 07:49:23 AM
Quote from: spork on July 21, 2019, 07:48:10 AM
Perhaps this deserves a separate thread, but in cases like Cincinnati Christian, why aren't trustees legally held to account for breaches of fiduciary duty? Is it because "stupid" is not considered "illegal," and everything is labeled the former?

My bet is that people don't know to file the lawsuits for breach of fiduciary duty until the college actually goes under.

I would say it's what Spork says. Incompetence is not illegal. From https://definitions.uslegal.com/b/breach-of-fiduciary-duty/ (https://definitions.uslegal.com/b/breach-of-fiduciary-duty/)
Quote
When one person does agree to act for another in a fiduciary relationship, the law forbids the fiduciary from acting in any manner adverse or contrary to the interests of the client, or from acting for his own benefit in relation to the subject matter.
So it's illegal to purposely run an institution into the ground, or to make deals that benefit the trustees at the expense of the institution. It's not illegal to have a plan best described as "ludicrously optimistic wishful thinking."

3 years after Dowling College closed, creditors have just filed a $50M lawsuit against the trustees and other officials. It will be interesting to see how that works out.
https://www.newsday.com/long-island/education/dowling-college-bankruptcy-1.33415884

If what the article says is true, I'd say this crosses the line. Inside deals with trustees, taking on debt far in excess of ability to repay, etc.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on July 22, 2019, 11:24:29 AM
Quote from: spork on July 20, 2019, 04:51:17 PM
Henderson State University's president resigns, effective immediately:

https://katv.com/news/local/henderson-state-university-president-submits-resignation (https://katv.com/news/local/henderson-state-university-president-submits-resignation).

How convenient that he can skip town for a year and return as a tenured faculty member.

Alternatively, how convenient that they're following through on his contract, since he was almost certainly given tenure in the hiring negotiations.

I looked up his salary. I wouldn't take the job of president for a salary that low even if it came with tenure.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ex_mo on July 22, 2019, 12:41:08 PM
Quote from: pgher on July 22, 2019, 08:04:38 AM
Quote from: downer on July 21, 2019, 02:29:26 PM
Quote from: pgher on July 21, 2019, 12:40:46 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 21, 2019, 07:49:23 AM
Quote from: spork on July 21, 2019, 07:48:10 AM
Perhaps this deserves a separate thread, but in cases like Cincinnati Christian, why aren't trustees legally held to account for breaches of fiduciary duty? Is it because "stupid" is not considered "illegal," and everything is labeled the former?

My bet is that people don't know to file the lawsuits for breach of fiduciary duty until the college actually goes under.

I would say it's what Spork says. Incompetence is not illegal. From https://definitions.uslegal.com/b/breach-of-fiduciary-duty/ (https://definitions.uslegal.com/b/breach-of-fiduciary-duty/)
Quote
When one person does agree to act for another in a fiduciary relationship, the law forbids the fiduciary from acting in any manner adverse or contrary to the interests of the client, or from acting for his own benefit in relation to the subject matter.
So it's illegal to purposely run an institution into the ground, or to make deals that benefit the trustees at the expense of the institution. It's not illegal to have a plan best described as "ludicrously optimistic wishful thinking."

3 years after Dowling College closed, creditors have just filed a $50M lawsuit against the trustees and other officials. It will be interesting to see how that works out.
https://www.newsday.com/long-island/education/dowling-college-bankruptcy-1.33415884

If what the article says is true, I'd say this crosses the line. Inside deals with trustees, taking on debt far in excess of ability to repay, etc.

There was a case cited in this thread on the old Fora about Saint Joseph's in Indiana which closed a few years back. A few faculty members sued for breach of contract and, IIRC, settled out of court.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 22, 2019, 01:00:59 PM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on July 22, 2019, 11:24:29 AM
Quote from: spork on July 20, 2019, 04:51:17 PM
Henderson State University's president resigns, effective immediately:

https://katv.com/news/local/henderson-state-university-president-submits-resignation (https://katv.com/news/local/henderson-state-university-president-submits-resignation).

How convenient that he can skip town for a year and return as a tenured faculty member.

Alternatively, how convenient that they're following through on his contract, since he was almost certainly given tenure in the hiring negotiations.

I looked up his salary. I wouldn't take the job of president for a salary that low even if it came with tenure.

This brings up an interesting conundrum for small, struggling institutions. My employer has cycled through so many "hired with tenure" administrators that we now have an overhang of very expensive, totally unneeded faculty. A higher starting salary but no tenure would have been less expensive given their short half lives in the jobs for which they were originally hired.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: onthefringe on July 22, 2019, 07:09:18 PM
U of Alaska regents declare financial exigency (https://www.alaskapublic.org/2019/07/22/university-of-alaska-regents-vote-to-declare-financial-exigency/), enablng faster downsizing. Not that they appear to have anything resemblng a plan at this time. I can't see how the math works if you ask each campus to make that kind of cut individually, but closing branches is quite problematic, and the President's proposal of somehow moving to a "single university" model seems very difficult to enact in a short time period (and that's assuming you think that model would serve the state and the students at all).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on July 23, 2019, 08:33:19 PM
Quote from: spork on July 22, 2019, 01:00:59 PM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on July 22, 2019, 11:24:29 AM
Quote from: spork on July 20, 2019, 04:51:17 PM
Henderson State University's president resigns, effective immediately:

https://katv.com/news/local/henderson-state-university-president-submits-resignation (https://katv.com/news/local/henderson-state-university-president-submits-resignation).

How convenient that he can skip town for a year and return as a tenured faculty member.

Alternatively, how convenient that they're following through on his contract, since he was almost certainly given tenure in the hiring negotiations.

I looked up his salary. I wouldn't take the job of president for a salary that low even if it came with tenure.

This brings up an interesting conundrum for small, struggling institutions. My employer has cycled through so many "hired with tenure" administrators that we now have an overhang of very expensive, totally unneeded faculty. A higher starting salary but no tenure would have been less expensive given their short half lives in the jobs for which they were originally hired.

It's maddening. Sometimes the fired administrator who was "hired with tenure" gets to keep a salary that is much higher than the faculty in the academic unit that he/she would be joining but without going through the tenure-track process and the peer review that comes with the tenure track. It should come as no surprise, if they are research hacks and mediocre teachers. 

It's almost as if there is a whole new path to a tenured faculty position that people intentionally plan on taking. I'm beginning to think that people take jobs as administrators, with the intention of stepping down, after a few years, into a tenured faculty position, because the tenured faculty position is what they were really after.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 24, 2019, 01:29:07 AM
Midstate College in Peoria will close next month: https://www.pjstar.com/news/20190723/midstate-college-to-cease-operations-next-month (https://www.pjstar.com/news/20190723/midstate-college-to-cease-operations-next-month).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: scamp on July 24, 2019, 09:45:11 AM
Quote from: lightning on July 23, 2019, 08:33:19 PM

It's almost as if there is a whole new path to a tenured faculty position that people intentionally plan on taking. I'm beginning to think that people take jobs as administrators, with the intention of stepping down, after a few years, into a tenured faculty position, because the tenured faculty position is what they were really after.

How often are administrative jobs (with a step back down to faculty as an option) given with tenure upon hire to people who hadn't earned it elsewhere? In my limited experience, the administrator typically has already been a full professor elsewhere.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on July 24, 2019, 02:08:40 PM
Quote from: scamp on July 24, 2019, 09:45:11 AM
Quote from: lightning on July 23, 2019, 08:33:19 PM

It's almost as if there is a whole new path to a tenured faculty position that people intentionally plan on taking. I'm beginning to think that people take jobs as administrators, with the intention of stepping down, after a few years, into a tenured faculty position, because the tenured faculty position is what they were really after.

How often are administrative jobs (with a step back down to faculty as an option) given with tenure upon hire to people who hadn't earned it elsewhere? In my limited experience, the administrator typically has already been a full professor elsewhere.

Almost never, I'd say. People have either earned tenure elsewhere, have gone through an expedited tenure process at new place, or both.

As a rule, the option to revert to faculty is put out there precisely because people would otherwise not leave tenured positions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 24, 2019, 02:31:04 PM
I keep telling search committee members to stop making finalists out of people we don't need (e.g., English, religious studies, philosophy, art) and short list only people with backgrounds we could use on the faculty -- because invariably that's where they end up when they get fired. No one cares what I say though.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 25, 2019, 10:08:33 AM
Brief updates on three closed VT colleges: https://www.vpr.org/post/status-update-3-recently-closed-vermont-colleges#stream/0 (https://www.vpr.org/post/status-update-3-recently-closed-vermont-colleges#stream/0).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on July 25, 2019, 07:56:57 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on July 24, 2019, 02:08:40 PM
Quote from: scamp on July 24, 2019, 09:45:11 AM
Quote from: lightning on July 23, 2019, 08:33:19 PM

It's almost as if there is a whole new path to a tenured faculty position that people intentionally plan on taking. I'm beginning to think that people take jobs as administrators, with the intention of stepping down, after a few years, into a tenured faculty position, because the tenured faculty position is what they were really after.

How often are administrative jobs (with a step back down to faculty as an option) given with tenure upon hire to people who hadn't earned it elsewhere? In my limited experience, the administrator typically has already been a full professor elsewhere.

Almost never, I'd say. People have either earned tenure elsewhere, have gone through an expedited tenure process at new place, or both.

As a rule, the option to revert to faculty is put out there precisely because people would otherwise not leave tenured positions.

In my own limited experience, hiring an administrator with fallback to tenured faculty, happens more than it should. I'm in complete agreement that the option to revert to faculty is put out there precisely because people would otherwise not leave tenured positions, but I should also add that it is very difficult to make a lateral move from a tenured faculty position to another tenured faculty position. Going into admin, with the fallback of reverting to faculty, is one path to making a lateral faculty move with tenure, with an intentionally lucrative brief stint as an administrator. Then there are those people, with cheesy degrees, and never ever had a faculty position nor a real research agenda, like that clown that ran University of Akron for a couple of years, and then joined the faculty with an unfairly high faculty salary, after he was chased out of the admin role. At my own uni, I deal with a glorified academic/student support administrator who has wheedled their way onto the faculty and is allocating more and more time to the role of faculty (spending time on research, teaching a 1/1 and some years a 1/2). I know exactly how that story will end.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 26, 2019, 02:17:28 AM
Marlboro College (VT) will merge with University of Bridgeport (CT): https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/University-of-Bridgeport-Marlboro-College-to-14137002.php (https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/University-of-Bridgeport-Marlboro-College-to-14137002.php).

This makes no sense at all.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 26, 2019, 05:05:28 AM
Quote from: spork on July 26, 2019, 02:17:28 AM
Marlboro College (VT) will merge with University of Bridgeport (CT): https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/University-of-Bridgeport-Marlboro-College-to-14137002.php (https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/University-of-Bridgeport-Marlboro-College-to-14137002.php).

This makes no sense at all.

Part of making no sense includes: "Plans call for students taking courses on both campuses, which are roughly two hours apart."  Why?  Why would you make students take classes two hours apart?

Edited to add:  I didn't even know about
Quote
For the benefit of readers whose New England geography is fuzzy, the physical gap between Marlboro and Bridgeport includes the state of Massachusetts.

Reference: https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/friday-fragments-164
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: archaeo42 on July 26, 2019, 05:34:04 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 26, 2019, 05:05:28 AM
Quote from: spork on July 26, 2019, 02:17:28 AM
Marlboro College (VT) will merge with University of Bridgeport (CT): https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/University-of-Bridgeport-Marlboro-College-to-14137002.php (https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/University-of-Bridgeport-Marlboro-College-to-14137002.php).

This makes no sense at all.

Part of making no sense includes: "Plans call for students taking courses on both campuses, which are roughly two hours apart."  Why?  Why would you make students take classes two hours apart?


The only possible way I could see this working is if courses are fully online or students decide to spend a semester/year at either place. But this is really weird.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 26, 2019, 05:53:32 AM
Quote from: archaeo42 on July 26, 2019, 05:34:04 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 26, 2019, 05:05:28 AM
Quote from: spork on July 26, 2019, 02:17:28 AM
Marlboro College (VT) will merge with University of Bridgeport (CT): https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/University-of-Bridgeport-Marlboro-College-to-14137002.php (https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/University-of-Bridgeport-Marlboro-College-to-14137002.php).

This makes no sense at all.

Part of making no sense includes: "Plans call for students taking courses on both campuses, which are roughly two hours apart."  Why?  Why would you make students take classes two hours apart?


The only possible way I could see this working is if courses are fully online or students decide to spend a semester/year at either place. But this is really weird.

It gets weirder the more articles I read.  The comments on a IHE article (http://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/07/25/marlboro-college-merge-university-bridgeport?utm_source=ihe&utm_medium=editorial-site&utm_content=breakingnews) are pretty entertaining. 

The details at https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/07/26/marlboro-seeing-peers-around-it-close-plans-merge-university-bridgeport are also weird.  For example, if engineering students wanted an immersive liberal arts experience, then they likely would have enrolled at a different institution.  As it is, engineering students everywhere in the US take classes in the arts and humanities as part of general education.  What would make Bridgeport special in a bad way is insisting on spending a semester at a rural place for no discernible benefit to the students.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 26, 2019, 06:17:19 AM
My initial thought was that UB's takeover of Marlboro was actually a Unification Church-directed business investment. But it turns out that the Unification Church's ties to UB no longer exist: https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/UB-Unification-Church-split-approved-by-all-sides-13902023.php (https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/UB-Unification-Church-split-approved-by-all-sides-13902023.php).

Full disclosure: nearly twenty years ago I was offered a job at UB and didn't take it (had a competing offer that was more attractive). At the time UB had, for its size and reputation, a huge international student enrollment, presumably all paying full tuition for the privilege of a U.S. college education. I was impressed with the physical plant, the academic program I would have been part of, and the administrators I met -- some of whom were Unification Church members.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on July 26, 2019, 07:38:01 AM
Quote from: archaeo42 on July 26, 2019, 05:34:04 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 26, 2019, 05:05:28 AM
Quote from: spork on July 26, 2019, 02:17:28 AM
Marlboro College (VT) will merge with University of Bridgeport (CT): https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/University-of-Bridgeport-Marlboro-College-to-14137002.php (https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/University-of-Bridgeport-Marlboro-College-to-14137002.php).

This makes no sense at all.

Part of making no sense includes: "Plans call for students taking courses on both campuses, which are roughly two hours apart."  Why?  Why would you make students take classes two hours apart?


The only possible way I could see this working is if courses are fully online or students decide to spend a semester/year at either place. But this is really weird.

Or a daily shuttle so students can take a day's worth of classes at the other campus? But... what if they miss the bus?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 27, 2019, 03:08:58 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on July 26, 2019, 07:38:01 AM
Quote from: archaeo42 on July 26, 2019, 05:34:04 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 26, 2019, 05:05:28 AM
Quote from: spork on July 26, 2019, 02:17:28 AM
Marlboro College (VT) will merge with University of Bridgeport (CT): https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/University-of-Bridgeport-Marlboro-College-to-14137002.php (https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/University-of-Bridgeport-Marlboro-College-to-14137002.php).

This makes no sense at all.

Part of making no sense includes: "Plans call for students taking courses on both campuses, which are roughly two hours apart."  Why?  Why would you make students take classes two hours apart?


The only possible way I could see this working is if courses are fully online or students decide to spend a semester/year at either place. But this is really weird.

Or a daily shuttle so students can take a day's worth of classes at the other campus? But... what if they miss the bus?

The distance is too far for a daily back-and-forth commute -- 2.5 hours one-way, assuming no traffic. Marlboro does have on-campus housing. But why acquire a campus that far away for students to study at for just a winter break or a semester or two? Something that big will never be fully utilized year-round as a conference or retreat site. Marlboro Music is only seven weeks long in the summer. How much of Marlboro's endowment is restricted? I can see UB pillaging the unrestricted portion and selling off the physical campus, like a company that's been the victim of a leveraged takeover. But I still say the merger makes no sense if the plan is to use the Marlboro campus as an extension of UB's academic operations.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on July 27, 2019, 05:20:50 PM
Quote from: lightning on July 25, 2019, 07:56:57 PM

In my own limited experience, hiring an administrator with fallback to tenured faculty, happens more than it should. I'm in complete agreement that the option to revert to faculty is put out there precisely because people would otherwise not leave tenured positions, but I should also add that it is very difficult to make a lateral move from a tenured faculty position to another tenured faculty position. Going into admin, with the fallback of reverting to faculty, is one path to making a lateral faculty move with tenure, with an intentionally lucrative brief stint as an administrator. Then there are those people, with cheesy degrees, and never ever had a faculty position nor a real research agenda, like that clown that ran University of Akron for a couple of years, and then joined the faculty with an unfairly high faculty salary, after he was chased out of the admin role. At my own uni, I deal with a glorified academic/student support administrator who has wheedled their way onto the faculty and is allocating more and more time to the role of faculty (spending time on research, teaching a 1/1 and some years a 1/2). I know exactly how that story will end.

When did you meet my Dean?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: glowdart on July 27, 2019, 09:50:38 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on July 26, 2019, 07:38:01 AM
Quote from: archaeo42 on July 26, 2019, 05:34:04 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 26, 2019, 05:05:28 AM
Quote from: spork on July 26, 2019, 02:17:28 AM
Marlboro College (VT) will merge with University of Bridgeport (CT): https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/University-of-Bridgeport-Marlboro-College-to-14137002.php (https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/University-of-Bridgeport-Marlboro-College-to-14137002.php).

This makes no sense at all.

Part of making no sense includes: "Plans call for students taking courses on both campuses, which are roughly two hours apart."  Why?  Why would you make students take classes two hours apart?


The only possible way I could see this working is if courses are fully online or students decide to spend a semester/year at either place. But this is really weird.

Or a daily shuttle so students can take a day's worth of classes at the other campus? But... what if they miss the bus?

Through mountains. In New England winters which last for six months. Up a highway that has always resembled a badly paved parking lot when I've had the displeasure.

UofB is 37% residential students. How do they expect any of those students to up and spend time in Vermont?

I cannot fathom what they are thinking.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 28, 2019, 06:28:33 AM
Quote from: glowdart on July 27, 2019, 09:50:38 PM
I cannot fathom what they are thinking.

More comments on the IHE articles indicate:
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 30, 2019, 12:13:23 PM
Quote from: spork on July 20, 2019, 04:44:01 PM
Quote from: Golazo on July 20, 2019, 02:58:16 PM
Cincinnati Christian: https://www.chronicle.com/article/Dire-Financial-Straits-/246735

QuoteSince 2015, the leaders of Cincinnati Christian University have made bold moves to try to reverse falling enrollment and flagging finances. The university spent big money on athletics, laid off staff and faculty members to cut costs, and revised its academic mission.

But instead of revitalizing the institution, those decisions are among the many that have pushed Cincinnati Christian toward the brink of financial ruin and put it at risk of losing its accreditation. The university has been hemorrhaging money even as it owes millions in debt it can't cover. At the same time, an effort to bolster enrollment has failed spectacularly, with double-digit drops in student retention and graduation rates

Nothing inherently wrong with athletics (thought a lot times it ends up of wrong), but NAIA football is not likely a money maker, and investing in athletics at the expense of academics is a good way to the death spiral (not to mention to governance issues)

Pulled this link to the story off Twitter. No paywall for now:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Dire-Financial-Straits-/246735?key=lZNp9FHkDfv6nyFEhWZrDUP3TWbE0z77QLb3gsyHC2ozlrjbb2cRryMhOlbj2yKaTWc1azVoVlQ3ZF95RVJXTjJuOE9pb3JmQzcxNUZmek9YQXV2MzcyYW8yVQ (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Dire-Financial-Straits-/246735?key=lZNp9FHkDfv6nyFEhWZrDUP3TWbE0z77QLb3gsyHC2ozlrjbb2cRryMhOlbj2yKaTWc1azVoVlQ3ZF95RVJXTjJuOE9pb3JmQzcxNUZmek9YQXV2MzcyYW8yVQ).

Sounds like the school that declined to merge with them dodged a bullet!

Apparently they made the mistake of choosing for their leadership the kind of incompetent serial entrepreneur who ruins everything he does, yet somehow always manages to hype himself up as a genius and convince a new batch of investors to support his next venture.  I feel sorry for students and alumni who have seen their school ruined by ridiculous wild turnaround efforts like this.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: glowdart on July 30, 2019, 09:49:13 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 28, 2019, 06:28:33 AM
Quote from: glowdart on July 27, 2019, 09:50:38 PM
I cannot fathom what they are thinking.

More comments on the IHE articles indicate:

  • Both institutions have endowments in the mid-30 million dollars, which means Bridgeport just more than doubled its endowment.

  • Since Marlboro College has been filling its budget gap recently from unrestricted funds in the endowment, it's possible that Marlboro College's endowment could still have unrestricted funds available to help fill Bridgeport's budget gaps.

  • Marlboro College has some very nice property that could be sold for a pretty penny or rented in a way to give a nice income.  After all, Marlboro has fewer than 200 students, many of whom likely could be relocated to have courses on both campuses.

  • The combined board structure will give only 15% of seats to Marlboro.  That seems like setting up to have Bridgeport run for Bridgeport's benefit.


Yes - but none of that addresses "plans call for students taking courses on both campuses," when said campuses are 2.5 hours apart on a good day and when 63% of students commute to UofB. Commuter students don't have a spare five hours+ a day to sit in traffic on 91 to get to class.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 31, 2019, 05:27:07 AM
Quote from: glowdart on July 30, 2019, 09:49:13 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 28, 2019, 06:28:33 AM
Quote from: glowdart on July 27, 2019, 09:50:38 PM
I cannot fathom what they are thinking.

More comments on the IHE articles indicate:

  • Both institutions have endowments in the mid-30 million dollars, which means Bridgeport just more than doubled its endowment.

  • Since Marlboro College has been filling its budget gap recently from unrestricted funds in the endowment, it's possible that Marlboro College's endowment could still have unrestricted funds available to help fill Bridgeport's budget gaps.

  • Marlboro College has some very nice property that could be sold for a pretty penny or rented in a way to give a nice income.  After all, Marlboro has fewer than 200 students, many of whom likely could be relocated to have courses on both campuses.

  • The combined board structure will give only 15% of seats to Marlboro.  That seems like setting up to have Bridgeport run for Bridgeport's benefit.


Yes - but none of that addresses "plans call for students taking courses on both campuses," when said campuses are 2.5 hours apart on a good day and when 63% of students commute to UofB. Commuter students don't have a spare five hours+ a day to sit in traffic on 91 to get to class.

I was unclear. 

What are the Powers that Be thinking?  They are seeing a way to sink more slowly with extra money.

Why are some administrators saying they are planning to really merge the schools to have students on both campuses?  Because those administrators don't really believe that the two institutions have different missions, they don't understand the complicated lives of current students, and those administrators probably come from backgrounds where they cannot fathom how engineering education works in practice with a very structured curriculum that would require significant revision to put all the liberal arts courses in one semester.

I don't recall any of the administrators suggesting students take classes on both campuses during the same term; that situation was raised here as being impractical and it remains impractical.

What was raised as an administrator idea to blend the campuses was students spending a term on the other campus.  My bet is those administrators really believe that could happen because those folks are still picturing students living on campus or just slightly off-campus in group housing.  Those administrators are not picturing people living at home and commuting into even their home campus. 

Numbers won't convince those administrators because they simply can't fathom how the college-going experience is different for an adult with a life that includes college classes instead of being a full-time college student who may have a part-time job.  People in that latter situation could get a ride with a packed backseat of belongings and go a couple hours away for a few months and get a ride back.  People in the former situation, even if full-time college students by course load, aren't likely to be able or willing to move for a few months to check some boxes. 

One of the hardest parts of getting lower SES folks solidly into pipeline for the parts of STEM where I reside is getting the students to believe they have to spend summers doing undergraduate research or other full-time internships instead of working in the family business or other employment strictly for the money.  I can't imagine trying to convince those students that they should pay extra money to live for a semester in rural nowhere taking liberal arts classes to become better rounded and then those students still have to take internships/research experiences to get the necessary experience to get a good job after graduation, which also may mean time away from home at additional cost.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 31, 2019, 06:12:28 AM
An analysis of Alaska by CHE (full-text link from Twitter): https://www.chronicle.com/article/Here-s-Why-Alaska-s/246779?key=lZNp9FHkDfv6nyFEhWZrDSYuwd8H0CKnTZMYKkfx8BfMPmrsv16UAEI4R3yu_kQYYlllYjhhV2VmZ0F2TzNmOG1YYjNWTmNhTERRYlItQzFLb203X3ZUb1FaVQ

Quote
On the Fairbanks campus, the six-year graduation rate is 39.2 percent. At Anchorage, it's 24.9 percent, and at Southeast, it's 19 percent. Retention rates for first-year students are 64 to 75 percent. Nationally, the average six-year graduation rate at public universities is 60 percent, and the average retention rate at institutions with open-enrollment policies is 62 percent.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 01, 2019, 05:45:33 AM
More from Alaska where the Board of Regents just voted to start the process of planning to transition to one accredited institution instead of three independently accredited institutions: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/07/31/alaska-regents-intense-debate-over-response-state-cut-reveals-internal-rifts

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on August 05, 2019, 02:28:34 AM
Wheeling continues to implode - president and senior VP given the boot: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/08/05/wheeling-president-placed-leave-next-chapter-chaotic-year (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/08/05/wheeling-president-placed-leave-next-chapter-chaotic-year).
Title: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: KamSlerm on August 06, 2019, 04:19:13 AM
I say throw the book at em.  In fact, the worst ones I would charge with domestic terrorism.  They knew this would unravel and cause huge problems.  How is causing chaos for personal financial gain any different from doing it for idealogical reasons?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on August 06, 2019, 06:23:15 AM
Quote from: KamSlerm on August 06, 2019, 04:19:13 AM
I say throw the book at em.  In fact, the worst ones I would charge with domestic terrorism.  They knew this would unravel and cause huge problems.  How is causing chaos for personal financial gain any different from doing it for idealogical reasons?

I'm all for holding administrators accountable for their misdeeds and irresponsibility. However, domestic terrorism is a charge that should should be reserved for those who deploy terror and encourage hate.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on August 06, 2019, 06:38:58 AM
Quote from: downer on August 06, 2019, 06:23:15 AM
Quote from: KamSlerm on August 06, 2019, 04:19:13 AM
I say throw the book at em.  In fact, the worst ones I would charge with domestic terrorism.  They knew this would unravel and cause huge problems.  How is causing chaos for personal financial gain any different from doing it for idealogical reasons?

I'm all for holding administrators accountable for their misdeeds and irresponsibility. However, domestic terrorism is a charge that should should be reserved for those who deploy terror and encourage hate.

I'd even restrict it to those who use or encourage physical violence, since "encouraging hate" has been conflated to mean almost anything in our current culture.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on August 06, 2019, 02:18:37 PM
Not dire, but enrollment declines and a budget deficit at Columbia College Chicago: https://www.chicagobusiness.com/education/columbia-college-chicagos-uphill-climb (https://www.chicagobusiness.com/education/columbia-college-chicagos-uphill-climb).

What stands out to me: how many colleges out there can't build a new $55 million student center to attract students? I know mine can't.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 14, 2019, 05:27:50 AM
Alaska in less dire straits: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/08/14/alaskas-governor-and-university-reach-compromise-nearly-halve-budget-cut

They are phasing in a smaller cut over three years and are still going to consolidate from three universities to one university.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 14, 2019, 01:47:45 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 14, 2019, 05:27:50 AM
Alaska in less dire straits: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/08/14/alaskas-governor-and-university-reach-compromise-nearly-halve-budget-cut

They are phasing in a smaller cut over three years and are still going to consolidate from three universities to one university.

The notion has been clearly expressed that he flagship campus in Fairbanks should be closed because they do research there. This theme recurs in the federal adminstration, and is echoed in Alaska. I don't think it is a coincidence.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 21, 2019, 08:20:23 PM
 Financial exigency off in Alaska (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Alaska-Regents-Vote-to/246980)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 22, 2019, 03:37:49 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 21, 2019, 08:20:23 PM
Financial exigency off in Alaska (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Alaska-Regents-Vote-to/246980)

The head regent has a weird sense of luxury: "We've been given the luxury of a three-year glide path" and a smaller reduction, Anderson said, "but remember, the reduction is $70 million."

Terminating exigency may be premature and unjustified, but the politics of the situation makes many involved suspend disbelief.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: rth253 on August 25, 2019, 02:38:36 PM
Any reads on the financial health of Lyon College in AR, or Erskine in SC?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 25, 2019, 04:07:42 PM
Quote from: rth253 on August 25, 2019, 02:38:36 PM
Any reads on the financial health of Lyon College in AR, or Erskine in SC?

You can do the research yourself at https://guidestar.org for the last couple 990 forms and through https://nces.ed.gov. 

Even just a Google search with "<college name>" and "<accrediting body>" will often turn up concerns like:

http://www.indexjournal.com/news/state/erskine-looks-to-charters-for-needed-revenue-students/article_3d95d1e1-4096-5d57-9619-401d58330a12.html (from 2017 after notices of having been on probation for financial reasons and getting off probation in 2015)

and

https://www.hlcommission.org/component/directory/?Action=ShowBasic&Itemid=&instid=1016&lang=en (indicating a string of requests related to financial indicators)

After only 30 seconds of web search, both institutions seem to have some significant yellow flags that likely would need to be investigated further.  However, those yellow flags along with the Wikipedia pages indicating very small, religious-affiliated institutions with minimal faculty seem to reaffirm the impression of financially struggling.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 02, 2019, 06:18:01 AM
"Expert predicts 25% of colleges will fail in the next 20 years" (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/expert-predicts-25-percent-of-colleges-will-fail-in-the-next-20-years-2019-08-31/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 02, 2019, 06:30:17 AM
Quote from: rth253 on August 25, 2019, 02:38:36 PM
Any reads on the financial health of Lyon College in AR, or Erskine in SC?

From IRS documents:

Lyon had negative net revenue in FYs 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, and 2017.

Erskine had negative net revenue FY 2009 through FY 2016.

Both average a historical FTE undergrad enrollment of about 600. I'd say neither one is long for this world.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 02, 2019, 06:38:12 AM
Quote from: spork on September 02, 2019, 06:18:01 AM
"Expert predicts 25% of colleges will fail in the next 20 years" (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/expert-predicts-25-percent-of-colleges-will-fail-in-the-next-20-years-2019-08-31/)
The expert does not provide any rationale for the number in that short piece. The descriptions make it sound as if 25% of colleges may close, but they enroll <2% of the students. The account also does not mention the numerous ephemeral for-profit outfits that inflate the numbers. Not surprisingly, the headline is overstating the impact. It is not as if the University of California is on the verge of shutting two campuses.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on September 02, 2019, 08:06:13 AM
Quote from: spork on September 02, 2019, 06:18:01 AM
"Expert predicts 25% of colleges will fail in the next 20 years" (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/expert-predicts-25-percent-of-colleges-will-fail-in-the-next-20-years-2019-08-31/)

From the article:
Quote
"There are huge parts of society that have to shift with that," Horn said. "It's not just expectations, it's how employers hire and a huge reason people are going to school is for social reasons."

The sooner the system crashes and burns because of "social reasons", the sooner it will be possible to focus on improving the quality of education.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: rth253 on September 04, 2019, 11:29:46 AM
Nyack College is attempting to sell its campus in Rockland for $100 million (apparently, it has been on the market since January with no apparent takers yet, though) and will be completely shutting down the campus and moving everything to part of an office building in NYC in the coming Spring semester. According to a student quoted, this was just dropped on students with little notice or explanation. The school's in a lot of debt, and I'm wondering if they'll be able to pull off this sale and save it. https://world.wng.org/2019/08/drowning_in_red
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: rth253 on September 04, 2019, 11:47:43 AM
Thanks for the information on Erskine and Lyon. I'm wondering how to interpret the Erskine data in light of recent data like this, which seems very positive in terms of enrollment? https://www.erskine.edu/2019/08/30/trustees-meet-during-first-week-of-record-breaking-semester/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on September 04, 2019, 02:40:20 PM
I find it interesting that so many on the conservative right are not supportive of colleges for fear that their children will be indoctrinated by all us chardonnay sipping, Birkenstock wearing, Volvo driving liberals  into becoming communists, or atheists, or lesbians or something.

Any yet, there are dozens of faith based schools circling the drain for lack of students.  If parents want to have their kids educated, but not expose them to the evils all us secular humanists pose, why are they not knocking down the doors of colleges that will  be supportive of their faith, while still providing a leg up to join (or stay in) the middle class?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 04, 2019, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: rth253 on September 04, 2019, 11:47:43 AM
Thanks for the information on Erskine and Lyon. I'm wondering how to interpret the Erskine data in light of recent data like this, which seems very positive in terms of enrollment? https://www.erskine.edu/2019/08/30/trustees-meet-during-first-week-of-record-breaking-semester/

An incoming class that doubles enrollment? Something is amiss. Maybe the endowment is being plundered to jack up the tuition discount. Maybe retention will be terrible because the new students are not college ready.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: rdonovantin on September 04, 2019, 05:31:31 PM
More news from South Florida... will this work? Lots of people excited about football down here
Quote"Anytime you come to a struggling institution, you are operating on deficits, and money is an issue," Armstrong said. "But I explained to them that if you do it correctly, you don't need money. The money will come through the operation of the team and from all the students who are paying tuition who otherwise wouldn't be here.

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/college/state-college-sports/article234659207.html

In the meantime, more and more valuable faculty and staff have left or been terminated

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on September 05, 2019, 08:02:10 AM
Quote from: rdonovantin on September 04, 2019, 05:31:31 PM
More news from South Florida... will this work? Lots of people excited about football down here
Quote"Anytime you come to a struggling institution, you are operating on deficits, and money is an issue," Armstrong said. "But I explained to them that if you do it correctly, you don't need money. The money will come through the operation of the team and from all the students who are paying tuition who otherwise wouldn't be here.

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/college/state-college-sports/article234659207.html

In the meantime, more and more valuable faculty and staff have left or been terminated

I would really love to see the business plan, with financial projections, especially where the revenue is going to come from. What percentage will be from ticket sales and who would be the paying fans at the game, for example? I certainly hope the business plan has some valid market research (primary data & not the BS that all athletic departments, in general, spew out) to backup the assumptions that the president has made. Otherwise this is going to be a very expensive learning experience. What scares me about this president's plan is that his assumptions seem to be based on his personal experience with football. Hail Mary business plan?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 05, 2019, 08:37:28 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 04, 2019, 02:40:20 PM
I find it interesting that so many on the conservative right are not supportive of colleges for fear that their children will be indoctrinated by all us chardonnay sipping, Birkenstock wearing, Volvo driving liberals  into becoming communists, or atheists, or lesbians or something.

Any yet, there are dozens of faith based schools circling the drain for lack of students.  If parents want to have their kids educated, but not expose them to the evils all us secular humanists pose, why are they not knocking down the doors of colleges that will  be supportive of their faith, while still providing a leg up to join (or stay in) the middle class?

I'm a little reluctant to respond to this, given the obvious hostility expressed here toward those of us who care about faith-based colleges, but here are some ideas:

1.  Some religious denominations have shrunk a great deal in recent decades, and so may now have more college infrastructure than they really need.

2.  On a related note, many religious colleges are located in regions where there are many schools--religious and otherwise--and declining demographics.  Since most of these weren't rich schools to begin with, any decline in enrollment is a bad development.  By contrast, my denominationally-affiliated alma mater is in a region where there is less competition, and so far seems to have kept its enrollment and finances in good shape.

3.  Some parents who might want to send their children to religiously-affiliated schools simply can't afford to do so any more due to rising tuition.  It's the region's cheaper state-supported school or nothing.  I know such parents.

4.  Others have decided to try the online degree alternative, and unfortunately a couple of big schools like Liberty now seem to have that all sewn up.

5.  At some religiously-affiliated schools the affiliation is more of an historical artifact than a living faith tradition.  This gives the school a less distinctive "brand"--now, instead of filling a clear niche, it's just another no-name little private school.  IIRC polly's "Super Dinky College" had this problem.  Families for whom the religious affiliation was important felt that the school had watered down its beliefs, yet paradoxically there were other prospective students who thought even a vestigial religious affiliation was a turn-off.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 05, 2019, 08:51:17 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 05, 2019, 08:37:28 AM

[. . .]

affiliation is more of an historical artifact than a living faith tradition.  This gives the school a less distinctive "brand"--now, instead of filling a clear niche, it's just another no-name little private school. 

[. . . ]


Ding! We have a winner.

Quote from: lightning on September 05, 2019, 08:02:10 AM
Quote from: rdonovantin on September 04, 2019, 05:31:31 PM
More news from South Florida... will this work? Lots of people excited about football down here
Quote"Anytime you come to a struggling institution, you are operating on deficits, and money is an issue," Armstrong said. "But I explained to them that if you do it correctly, you don't need money. The money will come through the operation of the team and from all the students who are paying tuition who otherwise wouldn't be here.

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/college/state-college-sports/article234659207.html

In the meantime, more and more valuable faculty and staff have left or been terminated

I would really love to see the business plan, with financial projections, especially where the revenue is going to come from. What percentage will be from ticket sales and who would be the paying fans at the game, for example? I certainly hope the business plan has some valid market research (primary data & not the BS that all athletic departments, in general, spew out) to backup the assumptions that the president has made. Otherwise this is going to be a very expensive learning experience. What scares me about this president's plan is that his assumptions seem to be based on his personal experience with football. Hail Mary business plan?

St. Thomas is one of those no-name, little private schools without a niche anymore. It's ten minutes away from the north campus of Miami Dade College, which is possibly the largest community college in the country. I will guess that that number of Miami Dade transfers that St. Thomas gets is effectively zero.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on September 05, 2019, 10:07:46 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 05, 2019, 08:37:28 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 04, 2019, 02:40:20 PM
I find it interesting that so many on the conservative right are not supportive of colleges for fear that their children will be indoctrinated by all us chardonnay sipping, Birkenstock wearing, Volvo driving liberals  into becoming communists, or atheists, or lesbians or something.

Any yet, there are dozens of faith based schools circling the drain for lack of students.  If parents want to have their kids educated, but not expose them to the evils all us secular humanists pose, why are they not knocking down the doors of colleges that will  be supportive of their faith, while still providing a leg up to join (or stay in) the middle class?

I'm a little reluctant to respond to this, given the obvious hostility expressed here toward those of us who care about faith-based colleges, but here are some ideas:

1.  Some religious denominations have shrunk a great deal in recent decades, and so may now have more college infrastructure than they really need.

2.  On a related note, many religious colleges are located in regions where there are many schools--religious and otherwise--and declining demographics.  Since most of these weren't rich schools to begin with, any decline in enrollment is a bad development.  By contrast, my denominationally-affiliated alma mater is in a region where there is less competition, and so far seems to have kept its enrollment and finances in good shape.

3.  Some parents who might want to send their children to religiously-affiliated schools simply can't afford to do so any more due to rising tuition.  It's the region's cheaper state-supported school or nothing.  I know such parents.

4.  Others have decided to try the online degree alternative, and unfortunately a couple of big schools like Liberty now seem to have that all sewn up.

5.  At some religiously-affiliated schools the affiliation is more of an historical artifact than a living faith tradition.  This gives the school a less distinctive "brand"--now, instead of filling a clear niche, it's just another no-name little private school.  IIRC polly's "Super Dinky College" had this problem.  Families for whom the religious affiliation was important felt that the school had watered down its beliefs, yet paradoxically there were other prospective students who thought even a vestigial religious affiliation was a turn-off.

I apologize for my tone and would express my thanks for taking the question seriously.  Thanks for your response.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on September 05, 2019, 11:25:49 AM
I don't think we mentioned this one yet:

Marlboro College (in Vermont) is merging with the University of Bridgeport (in Connecticut) (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/07/25/marlboro-college-merge-university-bridgeport). Marlboro's been losing enrollment for some time now; IIRC, its sweet spot was between 200-300 students, but it hasn't had that many in years. That said, those are two very different institutions, with completely different missions.

The move might just save it. Or just postpone the end. Which is too bad, because it was (and is) a pretty cool institution, with an increasingly rareified mission.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: archaeo42 on September 05, 2019, 11:36:17 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 05, 2019, 11:25:49 AM
I don't think we mentioned this one yet:

Marlboro College (in Vermont) is merging with the University of Bridgeport (in Connecticut) (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/07/25/marlboro-college-merge-university-bridgeport). Marlboro's been losing enrollment for some time now; IIRC, its sweet spot was between 200-300 students, but it hasn't had that many in years. That said, those are two very different institutions, with completely different missions.

The move might just save it. Or just postpone the end. Which is too bad, because it was (and is) a pretty cool institution, with an increasingly rareified mission.

That was mentioned on pages 7&8 of this thread.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on September 05, 2019, 11:53:04 AM
Quote from: archaeo42 on September 05, 2019, 11:36:17 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 05, 2019, 11:25:49 AM
I don't think we mentioned this one yet:

Marlboro College (in Vermont) is merging with the University of Bridgeport (in Connecticut) (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/07/25/marlboro-college-merge-university-bridgeport). Marlboro's been losing enrollment for some time now; IIRC, its sweet spot was between 200-300 students, but it hasn't had that many in years. That said, those are two very different institutions, with completely different missions.

The move might just save it. Or just postpone the end. Which is too bad, because it was (and is) a pretty cool institution, with an increasingly rareified mission.

That was mentioned on pages 7&8 of this thread.

Whelp. My apologies. I was relying on memory, and should have checked.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 05, 2019, 06:05:12 PM
Error in my previous post: "that that" should be "that the."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on September 06, 2019, 05:47:15 AM
Marquette University has layoffs and unfilled positions: https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2019/09/05/marquette-lays-off-24-faculty-and-staff-leaves-50-positions-unfilled/2225523001/

Marquette cites the changing Midwest demographics with fewer traditional age students as a reason to be proactive.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: rdonovantin on September 06, 2019, 08:47:32 AM
Quote from: lightning on September 05, 2019, 08:02:10 AM
Quote from: rdonovantin on September 04, 2019, 05:31:31 PM
More news from South Florida... will this work? Lots of people excited about football down here
Quote"Anytime you come to a struggling institution, you are operating on deficits, and money is an issue," Armstrong said. "But I explained to them that if you do it correctly, you don't need money. The money will come through the operation of the team and from all the students who are paying tuition who otherwise wouldn't be here.

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/college/state-college-sports/article234659207.html

In the meantime, more and more valuable faculty and staff have left or been terminated

I would really love to see the business plan, with financial projections, especially where the revenue is going to come from. What percentage will be from ticket sales and who would be the paying fans at the game, for example? I certainly hope the business plan has some valid market research (primary data & not the BS that all athletic departments, in general, spew out) to backup the assumptions that the president has made. Otherwise this is going to be a very expensive learning experience. What scares me about this president's plan is that his assumptions seem to be based on his personal experience with football. Hail Mary business plan?

All good and natural questions. We all wonder about long term plans (faculty and staff recently attended a welcome party at his new very fancy house, and we all wonder the same while commenting on those who have left or been terminated). First game is tomorrow at a local high school football field... against the football team from his former university in Northern Kentucky... President is really active on Twitter, so you can all get a better sense of the situation by reading his timeline https://twitter.com/stuprez
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 06, 2019, 09:14:55 AM
Quote from: rdonovantin on September 06, 2019, 08:47:32 AM
President is really active on Twitter, so you can all get a better sense of the situation by reading his timeline https://twitter.com/stuprez

If my place had a stupid president, I would hope they could grab that Twitter handle.


Slightly OT, a different Florida university president tweets about the upcoming football game (https://twitter.com/PresidentFuchs/status/1168959892633411585).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on September 06, 2019, 09:25:44 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 06, 2019, 09:14:55 AM
Quote from: rdonovantin on September 06, 2019, 08:47:32 AM
President is really active on Twitter, so you can all get a better sense of the situation by reading his timeline https://twitter.com/stuprez
If my place had a stupid president, I would hope they could grab that Twitter handle.

Hee.

The "z" really is the masterstroke.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 07, 2019, 06:57:08 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 05, 2019, 10:07:46 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 05, 2019, 08:37:28 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 04, 2019, 02:40:20 PM
I find it interesting that so many on the conservative right are not supportive of colleges for fear that their children will be indoctrinated by all us chardonnay sipping, Birkenstock wearing, Volvo driving liberals  into becoming communists, or atheists, or lesbians or something.

Any yet, there are dozens of faith based schools circling the drain for lack of students.  If parents want to have their kids educated, but not expose them to the evils all us secular humanists pose, why are they not knocking down the doors of colleges that will  be supportive of their faith, while still providing a leg up to join (or stay in) the middle class?

I'm a little reluctant to respond to this, given the obvious hostility expressed here toward those of us who care about faith-based colleges, but here are some ideas:

1.  Some religious denominations have shrunk a great deal in recent decades, and so may now have more college infrastructure than they really need.

2.  On a related note, many religious colleges are located in regions where there are many schools--religious and otherwise--and declining demographics.  Since most of these weren't rich schools to begin with, any decline in enrollment is a bad development.  By contrast, my denominationally-affiliated alma mater is in a region where there is less competition, and so far seems to have kept its enrollment and finances in good shape.

3.  Some parents who might want to send their children to religiously-affiliated schools simply can't afford to do so any more due to rising tuition.  It's the region's cheaper state-supported school or nothing.  I know such parents.

4.  Others have decided to try the online degree alternative, and unfortunately a couple of big schools like Liberty now seem to have that all sewn up.

5.  At some religiously-affiliated schools the affiliation is more of an historical artifact than a living faith tradition.  This gives the school a less distinctive "brand"--now, instead of filling a clear niche, it's just another no-name little private school.  IIRC polly's "Super Dinky College" had this problem.  Families for whom the religious affiliation was important felt that the school had watered down its beliefs, yet paradoxically there were other prospective students who thought even a vestigial religious affiliation was a turn-off.

I apologize for my tone and would express my thanks for taking the question seriously.  Thanks for your response.

Thank you.  I went to a college where the religious affiliation was still very much a part of the school.  It matters greatly to some of us.  I'm sure that a lot of these failing schools we read about have alumni and others for whom it matters as well.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on September 07, 2019, 07:57:05 AM
There also tend to be a couple of very invalid assumptions going on (which tie to my discussion of Harvard's early history on another thread).

Religious people, like religious institutions, come in all flavors. Agreed, individuals (and yes, sometimes many individuals) have had distressing or damaging interactions within given religious institutions--including schools, churches, synagogues, mosques, ashrams, havurat, shamanic communities, etc.

Those are indeed to be called out, redressed, and the perpetrators purged and punished.

But characterizing them all as mindless, punitive, hypocritical, sin-ridden, and dangerous is disingenuous.

It's too easy to create a straw wo/man, pop a collar, a tallis, surplice, or prayer shawl on them, and call all who dress like them evil.

I, too, am grateful for secundem_artem's apology, because it's just as important to take the good points seriously as the bad ones. I work in interfaith/ecumenical settings, and I am constantly humbled and impressed by how hard and how carefully most religious leaders work to do good pastoral care, relate appropriately to other public figures in their towns and regions, and creates systems and structures that help move social justice needs forward as well.

Many, if not most, of those leaders found their calling early in their lives, and many of those took place in religiously-identified schools that sought to make the connections between intention, intelligence, and education. 

Public schools are hampered in making some of those more direct links, although I was impressed at the interactive level when subbing for two years in a public school system, how carefully most of those teachers and administrators likewise sought to inculcate empathy and ethical awareness in their students.

It's a bit too easy to concentrate one's characterizations on the extremes, and ignore the valuable, richly varied offerings of institutions and individuals residing at all levels within the much larger range of confessional depth here, and elsewhere--and to downplay true efforts to live out goodness all along the continuum between those extremes.

The1690s Acts of Toleration (and Locke's works that perhaps sparked them) deserve a re-read from both directions.

Those who claim toleration for religious difference in the global sense need to be able to apply it locally as well....and vice-versa.

And religiously based schools, some, but not all of them, among the oldest in the world, that do this work well deserve approbation for it.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on September 07, 2019, 08:23:11 AM
apl68 is correct that Super Dinky College did indeed have the problem of being religiously affiliated, but not being religious enough for people who really wanted that experience.

The religious organization had three members on the board of trustees according to the college charter, but their voices were often lost among the total 30+ trustees.  Someone at some point managed to get the charter changed so the religious affiliate had no voice on the executive council where the real decisions were made, including hiring of faculty.  The college officially has a statement in the faculty handbook along the lines of "faculty will hold views compatible with the <religious body> and Super Dinky's mission", but I had no problem there as an atheist and never had to sign a statement of faith.

Alumni are still angry about the elimination of mandatory chapel attendance decades ago.  Alumni also were up in arms when the news broke that the chapel would indeed be rented to anyone who could pay the fees, not just people who would be able to be married under the traditions of the appropriate church affiliate.

Yet, a group of about 20 current students pushed really hard to get regular services reinstated because they didn't like just having prayers be just one of opening ceremonial checkboxes for large gatherings.   We had arrangements with a part-time chaplain but those arrangements kept falling through as the individual chaplains realized students wanted more religious life than the part-time contract covered and most of the faculty/staff/administration were focused on other areas of college life.

Eventually, we ended up with a director of religious life who was not ordained, but was a very active member of a local church that best represented the students we had.  That director was happy to work part-time arranging church and related experiences for identifiable groups of students including vanpools to the nearest temple and mosque. 

Then, people were up in arms because, while that local church was the one that best represented the religious affiliation of the students who had expressed a preference to have more religion on campus, the local church was not related to the church with which we were officially affiliated and was WRONG to the point of being EVIL.  Most of the faculty, staff, and administration were of the opinion that both are mainstream American religious sects with a large number of members so <shrug>, but the people who cared cared a lot and were very, very vocal about EVIL in choosing THOSE PEOPLE as representing our religious life.  The last I saw, the director of religious life was still there and the webpages listing all the local (or nearest) religious houses of worship were still up.

The 10th day count did not make the papers for the past few years, but I can't imagine that it's still above 500 students at Super Dinky.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 10, 2019, 02:41:11 AM
Wheeling University sued by fired faculty members: https://www.theintelligencer.net/news/top-headlines/2019/09/former-wheeling-u-faculty-members-sue-for-wrongful-termination/ (https://www.theintelligencer.net/news/top-headlines/2019/09/former-wheeling-u-faculty-members-sue-for-wrongful-termination/).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ex_mo on September 10, 2019, 07:24:24 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on September 07, 2019, 08:23:11 AM
apl68 is correct that Super Dinky College did indeed have the problem of being religiously affiliated, but not being religious enough for people who really wanted that experience.

The religious organization had three members on the board of trustees according to the college charter, but their voices were often lost among the total 30+ trustees.  Someone at some point managed to get the charter changed so the religious affiliate had no voice on the executive council where the real decisions were made, including hiring of faculty.  The college officially has a statement in the faculty handbook along the lines of "faculty will hold views compatible with the <religious body> and Super Dinky's mission", but I had no problem there as an atheist and never had to sign a statement of faith.

Alumni are still angry about the elimination of mandatory chapel attendance decades ago.  Alumni also were up in arms when the news broke that the chapel would indeed be rented to anyone who could pay the fees, not just people who would be able to be married under the traditions of the appropriate church affiliate.

Yet, a group of about 20 current students pushed really hard to get regular services reinstated because they didn't like just having prayers be just one of opening ceremonial checkboxes for large gatherings.   We had arrangements with a part-time chaplain but those arrangements kept falling through as the individual chaplains realized students wanted more religious life than the part-time contract covered and most of the faculty/staff/administration were focused on other areas of college life.

Eventually, we ended up with a director of religious life who was not ordained, but was a very active member of a local church that best represented the students we had.  That director was happy to work part-time arranging church and related experiences for identifiable groups of students including vanpools to the nearest temple and mosque. 

Then, people were up in arms because, while that local church was the one that best represented the religious affiliation of the students who had expressed a preference to have more religion on campus, the local church was not related to the church with which we were officially affiliated and was WRONG to the point of being EVIL.  Most of the faculty, staff, and administration were of the opinion that both are mainstream American religious sects with a large number of members so <shrug>, but the people who cared cared a lot and were very, very vocal about EVIL in choosing THOSE PEOPLE as representing our religious life.  The last I saw, the director of religious life was still there and the webpages listing all the local (or nearest) religious houses of worship were still up.

The 10th day count did not make the papers for the past few years, but I can't imagine that it's still above 500 students at Super Dinky.

My parents attended this school and, while they aren't particularly vocal, my mother "served her time" (her words) on the alumni board probably around the time Polly worked there. It is probably important that this particular school is not Catholic or evangelical like Liberty and instead is affiliated with a version of  what I'd consider mainstream Protestantism, which I think adds to the challenges there. Thinking sociologically for a minute, what is the "brand identity" of something like Presbyterianism or Methodism? It simply isn't the same as being a Jesuit school or a school affiliated with the Southern Baptist church. This is the way of American religious life, in a lot of ways.

Incidentally, there was a big piece in Politico yesterday about Liberty. They are by no means in dire financial straights, but whoo boy, this is a lot. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/09/09/jerry-falwell-liberty-university-loans-227914.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on September 10, 2019, 10:39:52 AM
I saw the Liberty article as well, thought it was well-written and well-researched. I work with two people who hold degrees from Liberty, who are on the board of the NP I support as an EA at the moment, so I was interested to see what was going on there, and sorry to see the dynamics that had occurred.

I don't mention my reservations about their degrees (which don't seem to have been very rigorous, albeit somewhat credible) to my two board members. But they're well-intentioned, careful pastors to the congregations they serve, and I respect them for their efforts to read and understand texts, beyond the work they did for their M.Div's, and for their lived faith.

At one time, fundamentalism was truly undervalued and maligned, and marginalized in ways we don't remember any more; it was often equated with poverty and ignorance as well. It still has theological and socially appropriate contributions to make, but they are often overcome or outshouted by those who have tried to capitalize on the feelings of entitlement and devaluation that were being experienced just at the turning point (I'd say, the late 1970s, early 1980s) when certain results of the work ethic began to blossom among the second and third generation of ministers and preachers (Franklin Graham and Francis Schaeffer's son, Frankie, come to mind.)

Their parents mostly worked to balance their messages between the well-researched, studious preachments they were trained to give, and the desire to see what they had to offer given forth on a larger scale (I ushered for a Billy Graham service in the late 1970s; it was underwhelming emotionally, except in the number of people who filled the stadium. I was impressed that they encouraged those who sought counseling to find a local congregation to join: they weren't trying to "push" their own "brand" per se. I also read several of Schaeffer's works on faith and the arts, was disappointed in some concrete assertions that weren't always bourne out by known art historical facts at the time, but was glad to see someone at least tackling the issues there, too).

Those individuals' sense of missiology may well have been flawed, but they were honest in their definition of the scope of their work; several of their offspring seem to have caught the "performance" part of the equation, but not the "prayer" in the watchword "Both a performance and a prayer," and project too far, too fast, and too loudly, a distorted message which I only barely recognize as Gospel in some ways--but even that can, and has, had good effect on some of their hearers (not to say that those are the only results).

And the midstream/mainstream denominations, which suffered for a time from their perceived "stodginess," do not, indeed, deserve to be considered in the same way or the same light. Many are filled with careful, caring people who go about their life and their work with an added dimension to their life which is informed and influenced by what they do, say, read, hear, and sing in worship.

That extends, indeed, to the ways I perceive Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and other faiths. Each has a central core of mostly caring people who seek to maintain a sense of humanity and divinity in their lives and their work. Each also, in different ways, may have fringe groups that stir up anger, or claim disproportionate redress for wrongs done them that transcend the limits their own faith would impose on harmful behavior to others, etc.

I'm sorry to hear of the polarization that happened at the school you're both discussing; it's hard to know when to let things move forward and when to hold so specific points won't be lost. I've been in situations like that, one wants both to minister to the sense of loss those who are trying to hold out to prevent change are feeling, while urging them to allow growth (which is simpler to frame than 'change' in those settings) where they can as well.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 16, 2019, 09:33:31 AM
Quote from: glowdart on July 30, 2019, 09:49:13 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 28, 2019, 06:28:33 AM
Quote from: glowdart on July 27, 2019, 09:50:38 PM
I cannot fathom what they are thinking.

More comments on the IHE articles indicate:

  • Both institutions have endowments in the mid-30 million dollars, which means Bridgeport just more than doubled its endowment.

  • Since Marlboro College has been filling its budget gap recently from unrestricted funds in the endowment, it's possible that Marlboro College's endowment could still have unrestricted funds available to help fill Bridgeport's budget gaps.

  • Marlboro College has some very nice property that could be sold for a pretty penny or rented in a way to give a nice income.  After all, Marlboro has fewer than 200 students, many of whom likely could be relocated to have courses on both campuses.

  • The combined board structure will give only 15% of seats to Marlboro.  That seems like setting up to have Bridgeport run for Bridgeport's benefit.


Yes - but none of that addresses "plans call for students taking courses on both campuses," when said campuses are 2.5 hours apart on a good day and when 63% of students commute to UofB. Commuter students don't have a spare five hours+ a day to sit in traffic on 91 to get to class.

To nobody's surprise, the merger negotiations did not go well. IHE article. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/09/16/marlboro-college-and-u-bridgeport-drop-plans-merge)  Nobody is giving specifics, but the statements suggest that Bridgeport realized that they had a financial black hole, and that Marlboro people were not hearing a plan that involved their campus remaining open.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on September 16, 2019, 10:22:12 AM
A very interesting article in yesterday's NY Times Magazine.  It discusses how the financial realities of admitting promising students who are from lower income quintiles runs counter to universities' oft-stated mission of helping lift people out of poverty.  One admission officer states that he is forced to turn down students he would like to admit (good GPA but no money)  while also being forced to admit students he would like to turn down (lousy GPA but willing to pay).

The article focuses primarily on the numerous private schools without deep pockets.  As for the well endowed privates (Harvard et al) apparently they provide more financial aid to the highest economic quintile than they do the lowest. I'm not sure what the situation would be like for publics.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 16, 2019, 02:20:58 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 16, 2019, 10:22:12 AM
A very interesting article in yesterday's NY Times Magazine.  It discusses how the financial realities of admitting promising students who are from lower income quintiles runs counter to universities' oft-stated mission of helping lift people out of poverty.  One admission officer states that he is forced to turn down students he would like to admit (good GPA but no money)  while also being forced to admit students he would like to turn down (lousy GPA but willing to pay).

The article focuses primarily on the numerous private schools without deep pockets.  As for the well endowed privates (Harvard et al) apparently they provide more financial aid to the highest economic quintile than they do the lowest. I'm not sure what the situation would be like for publics.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html

A lot of the article focuses on Trinity, which has traditionally catered to the wealthy New England prep school demographic. They already had a problem before trying to offer scholarships to deserving underrepresented applicants, was that they were already having to dip in to the dolts ("underprepared and unmotivated"), and were still not raising enough net tuition. That is a difficult place to start an expensive diversification effort. Do you admit more wealthy dolts to balance the books? What does that do to the schools attractiveness to the full-pay smart kids?

It is definitely a tough situation.


One troubling part was how they used the SAT in the exact opposite way it is legitimate. The dolts who took enough test prep could get a high enough SAT to make that the academic qualifier for admission if they were full-pay. Both the applicant and the school knew they were gaming the system. Given that practice, the new admissions officer's move go to test-optional is right.

An interesting read.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: larryc on September 16, 2019, 10:55:42 PM
So what is going on here? Maybe the answers are in this thread and I missed them.

Why are so many small schools, most of which seem to have muddled along for a century, closing? What is the big picture explanation? The economy is good (in a way), young people are going to college. The public universities have raised tuition radically in the last decades--I would think that the private schools would be relatively more competitive. So why are they dying?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on September 17, 2019, 05:07:13 AM
Quote from: larryc on September 16, 2019, 10:55:42 PM
So what is going on here? Maybe the answers are in this thread and I missed them.

Why are so many small schools, most of which seem to have muddled along for a century, closing? What is the big picture explanation? The economy is good (in a way), young people are going to college. The public universities have raised tuition radically in the last decades--I would think that the private schools would be relatively more competitive. So why are they dying?

How much of it is due to students realizing they need specific qualifications, rather than a degree in anything, to be employable?  That would create much more difficulty for small places that can't offer great depth in many areas.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on September 17, 2019, 05:22:10 AM
Quote from: larryc on September 16, 2019, 10:55:42 PM
So what is going on here? Maybe the answers are in this thread and I missed them.

Why are so many small schools, most of which seem to have muddled along for a century, closing? What is the big picture explanation? The economy is good (in a way), young people are going to college. The public universities have raised tuition radically in the last decades--I would think that the private schools would be relatively more competitive. So why are they dying?

Short answer: almost no one wants the product they are providing at a price that ensures costs are actually being covered.  The humanities are no longer the heart of the college experience and thus, the tiny privates who are still in that model aren't competitive for enough students to cover their costs nor do those colleges have the resources to invest in the much more expensive and high demand majors.

Longer answer:  A combination of factors have changed higher ed dramatically in the past 2 decades and institutions that are waiting until now to dramatically change are too late.

1) A larger percentage of young people is going to college, but some parts of the country have far fewer young people and we haven't hit bottom yet.  Changing mission to serve returning students or continuing education generally means hiring different faculty and staff than the ones who have been the with institution for decades and aren't yet ready to retire.  The highly-motivated returning students in rural areas often choose an online program that caters to their needs over the required driving to get to the campus that has evening classes for working adults.  The market for those students is now national and a tiny little place can't compete with the good and much more diverse online programs out of the huge publics.

2) The small privates might be price competitive with public branch campuses after the huge discount rates, but the small privates are not competitive in terms of numbers of majors offered, variety of electives offered, or quality of life outside the classroom.  Super Dinky bragged about having 20 majors and 35 student groups.  A strong competitor regional comprehensive has 60 majors and 240 registered student groups.  People who are uncertain about their major or are really enthusiastic about stereotypical campus life are going to pick the place with many majors each offering dozens of electives, a solid Greek life, and better-than-high-school athletics over the quiet, make-your-own-fun-with-minimal-official-programming life.

3) Many of the costs for running an institution don't scale nicely with tiny-to-small student population.  Dropping from 1000 students to 500 students will not result in much, if any, administrative, facilities, or technology costs.  You can perhaps save on faculty if you're willing to cut majors, not replace retirees, and use a more flexible instructional workforce during any growth periods instead of committing to new faculty.  However, the effort required to do all the mandatory reporting has increased so no longer can the one individual with the registrar title be handling the day-to-day customer service for current student walk-ins and alumni requests, keeping the databases up-to-date as curriculum changes occur, and doing all the mandatory reporting to IPEDS, Student Clearinghouse, and the state Dept of Ed.  The aging facilities have a ton of deferred maintenance and that's off-putting to students who shop around and realize they can pay the same price at the regional comprehensive for climate-controlled buildings with at least some of the buildings constructed more recently than during the grandparents' college years.

4) Expectations of baseline functioning have changed with concomitant costs going up.  Students expect to have WiFi throughout campus at sufficient coverage and speed to use all their devices.  Students expect to have information online and up-to-date. While I saw a college website just the other day informing students to consult the bulletin board outside the registrar's office for the finals schedule and the list of courses for next term, that's not going to fly on most campuses.  Moodle may be no charge to acquire as the LMS, but even at 500 students, the college needs a basically full-time administrator to keep it running and a full-time someone else tasked with keeping all the hardware running.  Perhaps some professors are still typing on their electric typewriters and photocopying the results, but most faculty and staff will need computers that are less than 5 years old and moderately reliable internet access.

5) The majors students want have shifted dramatically and seldom have the tiny rural colleges that have been gracefully circling the drain for decades kept up.  "In 2016 about 45% of freshmen indicated they planned to major in an S&E field (up from about 8% in 2000); about 16% in the biological and agricultural sciences; 11% in engineering; 10% in the social and behavioral sciences; 6% in mathematics, statistics, or computer sciences; and 3% in the physical sciences." (https://nsf.gov/statistics/2018/nsb20181/report/sections/higher-education-in-science-and-engineering/undergraduate-education-enrollment-and-degrees-in-the-united-states). 

Someone who wants to major in engineering is likely mistaken, but they aren't going to a tiny college that has no engineering program.  Someone who is prepared for a lab/field science and is really thinking of a career as a scientist is not picking a tiny college with minimal facilities over the regional comprehensive that costs the same while providing better facilities and substantial undergraduate research opportunities.  Even someone who wants a humanities BA is much more likely to pick a school with a department of 10+ full-time faculty with dozens of electives and 50 other enthusiastic students majoring in that field over a department of 1-3 full-time faculty with only 5-10 other students declaring that major and that's assuming the major survived the last rounds of cuts.

6) The tiny colleges tend to think of a consolidated four-year experience on one campus with students living in dorms, Greek houses, or just off-campus and possibly working a 10h/week job on campus.  That situation describes a much smaller percentage of college students than ever before, even while the research remains that most students pick colleges that are within 50 miles of home, unless those students are attending elite universities. 

For example, the tiny colleges tend to be unfriendly to transfer students by setting up a general education curriculum that is fabulously unique, but means that most general education classes will transfer as electives.  Thus, the students who start at community colleges to save money while living at home are not going to transfer in large numbers, even if the next closest campus is significantly farther away, but costs the same.  Being transfer friendly (much easier on a larger campus) will attract those students.

The urban/suburban students who are most likely to fit the stereotype who are also used to much more activities by virtue of being in population centers of 100k+ are very unlikely to purposely go somewhere the sidewalks are rolled up by 8 PM on weeknights and 10 PM on weekends.  Again, bragging about a number of student groups that is less than the high school had is not really a selling point.

People who already have full-time or nearly full-time bill-paying jobs even as traditional-age students supporting their extended families (quite common for some first-generation communities) are not going to enroll at a remote college and hurt their families by eliminating that income.  They aren't going to move and they are unlikely to make an hour-long drive multiple times a week when online fits better into their lives.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 17, 2019, 05:43:16 AM
Quote from: larryc on September 16, 2019, 10:55:42 PM
So what is going on here? Maybe the answers are in this thread and I missed them.

Why are so many small schools, most of which seem to have muddled along for a century, closing? What is the big picture explanation? The economy is good (in a way), young people are going to college. The public universities have raised tuition radically in the last decades--I would think that the private schools would be relatively more competitive. So why are they dying?

Small schools have been going out of business for 100 years or more. It is hard to tell from existing statistics whether the pace has picked up over the normal turnover.

The economic cycle matters the last couple years, but in the opposite way. When the economy is good, some potential students opt to go to work directly. When the next recession hits, and entry-level jobs get harder to find, college enrollment will increase a bit.

Urbanization is having a big effect on rural schools. Rural, small town and city-raised kids mostly want to go to school in cities. That is a worldwide phenomenon, that means rural communities really need to rethink their demographic and economic situation. The small-town college as the place to train the next group of civic and small-business leaders is not viable. This trend is increasing enrollment at urban schools, and allowing new school to open in those locations.

The original reasons to exist may be going away. Many schools were established to train teachers or clergy for the nearby region. Transportation has made it easy to go to a regional school. A lot of denominations are seeing a reduced supply of seminarians, and little willingness to subsidize the schools. Switching the program to criminal justice and nursing (fields with rural and small-town jobs) isn't going to be competitive for many of those.



Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on September 17, 2019, 06:11:34 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 17, 2019, 05:43:16 AM
The original reasons to exist may be going away. Many schools were established to train teachers or clergy for the nearby region. Transportation has made it easy to go to a regional school. A lot of denominations are seeing a reduced supply of seminarians, and little willingness to subsidize the schools. Switching the program to criminal justice and nursing (fields with rural and small-town jobs) isn't going to be competitive for many of those.

In addition, getting faculty for criminal justice and nursing is much, much more expensive than getting comparably qualified humanities faculty willing to live in the hinterlands.  It's possible to get criminal justice faculty who earned a master's degree along the way and retire after their 20 years on the force.  However, those folks are much less likely to be enthusiastic about shared governance and many of the more academic parts of being a faculty member at a small college.  Those folks often want to interact students and profess in the classroom; those folks may even be good public speakers with public writings.  But, the retired police officer is seldom a pedagogy guru or particularly interested in any discussions related to general education other than a bland assertion that a good general education program is very useful to the average person.

Nursing is just plain expensive to run.  In addition to the graduate-trained faculty having many options and generally commanding market rates that are often double the rate for a humanities assistant professor at the same institution, the equipment has to remain state-of-the-art and arrangements have to be made for practicums with local hospitals.  Only so many practicum slots exist at any given hospital (after all, education is not the primary purpose of a small, rural hospital) and each practicum has a very low limit (often 5-8 students) based on a student/supervising faculty ratio for the good of the patients so the number of nursing faculty is usually much higher for a given number of students than almost any other program on campus.  Yes, that's correct: the most expensive faculty also have the smallest class sizes and also need to maintain an affiliation with a local hospital to ensure they can supervise practicums.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on September 17, 2019, 06:29:29 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on September 17, 2019, 06:11:34 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 17, 2019, 05:43:16 AM
The original reasons to exist may be going away. Many schools were established to train teachers or clergy for the nearby region. Transportation has made it easy to go to a regional school. A lot of denominations are seeing a reduced supply of seminarians, and little willingness to subsidize the schools. Switching the program to criminal justice and nursing (fields with rural and small-town jobs) isn't going to be competitive for many of those.

In addition, getting faculty for criminal justice and nursing is much, much more expensive than getting comparably qualified humanities faculty willing to live in the hinterlands.  It's possible to get criminal justice faculty who earned a master's degree along the way and retire after their 20 years on the force.  However, those folks are much less likely to be enthusiastic about shared governance and many of the more academic parts of being a faculty member at a small college.  Those folks often want to interact students and profess in the classroom; those folks may even be good public speakers with public writings.  But, the retired police officer is seldom a pedagogy guru or particularly interested in any discussions related to general education other than a bland assertion that a good general education program is very useful to the average person.

Nursing is just plain expensive to run.  In addition to the graduate-trained faculty having many options and generally commanding market rates that are often double the rate for a humanities assistant professor at the same institution, the equipment has to remain state-of-the-art and arrangements have to be made for practicums with local hospitals.  Only so many practicum slots exist at any given hospital (after all, education is not the primary purpose of a small, rural hospital) and each practicum has a very low limit (often 5-8 students) based on a student/supervising faculty ratio for the good of the patients so the number of nursing faculty is usually much higher for a given number of students than almost any other program on campus.  Yes, that's correct: the most expensive faculty also have the smallest class sizes and also need to maintain an affiliation with a local hospital to ensure they can supervise practicums.

Nursing programs' class sizes, outside of practicums, can also be governed by state rules that are driven by the dictates of hospitals and clinics. So even if a tiny school wanted to go on-the-cheap and created a nursing program with outdated equipment and larger than practical class sizes, there's probably a law that prevents that. I'm not privy to the details of our medical center's nursing program, but I think there's a reason that actual hospitals who do patient care, also do a good job of running higher-ed nursing programs and have a better chance of controlling costs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 17, 2019, 07:58:38 AM
I used nursing as an example of something that tempts administrators. The comments show how challenging it is to do well.

I checked Petersons.com. There are over 1000 programs in the US. In Ohio (to pick a state with a significant rural college inventory), there are 33 nursing programs at schools with fewer than 2000 students. So there are places trying.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 17, 2019, 08:06:21 AM
Quote from: larryc on September 16, 2019, 10:55:42 PM
So what is going on here? Maybe the answers are in this thread and I missed them.

Why are so many small schools, most of which seem to have muddled along for a century, closing? What is the big picture explanation? The economy is good (in a way), young people are going to college. The public universities have raised tuition radically in the last decades--I would think that the private schools would be relatively more competitive. So why are they dying?

What others have said.

I look at my own institution and those in the region and I see the following: the traditional business model works well until it doesn't. For the last twenty years my institution has frittered away opportunities to become less dependent on 18-22 year old full-time residential students. Now a few people here are waking up to the fact that the pool of those potential students has been shrinking and will continue to shrink. They still refuse to recognize the fact that the potential students in this shrinking pool are better served by larger universities that can offer higher quality academic programs and more resources, often for the same or less money that we can.

I expect a long, slow slide into oblivion. No one on the faculty has taken notice, but we now have two occupational training programs staffed almost entirely by adjuncts. One is down to a single tenured faculty member and a full-time lecturer (both nearing retirement). At some point the light bulb is going to go off over some administrator's head (if it hasn't already) that it's far cheaper to run a program with only a single full-time faculty member, someone who will be a department chair with the primary responsibility of hiring adjuncts to teach the courses needed for the major.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: archaeo42 on September 17, 2019, 08:36:18 AM
What immediately popped to mind from Spork's description is the academic version of the gig economy. One staff member to oversee cheaper contractors.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on September 17, 2019, 09:23:52 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 17, 2019, 07:58:38 AM
I used nursing as an example of something that tempts administrators. The comments show how challenging it is to do well.

I checked Petersons.com. There are over 1000 programs in the US. In Ohio (to pick a state with a significant rural college inventory), there are 33 nursing programs at schools with fewer than 2000 students. So there are places trying.

I taught at one of those tiny rural places (enrollment less than 2,000) trying to maintain a nursing program. It was a struggle for the program to remain solvent. Money had to be re-directed to it because it could not stay in the black on its own. And this tiny place did this because the local hospital was always clamoring and yammering for more qualified nurses. Other areas like biology were starving (unless the course had a very very direct connection to nurse training)--the biology labs looked like something from a 1970s junior high school. When I moved to a large urban research university with a medical center, I began to see the wisdom of combining a higher-ed nursing program into a medical center. The nursing program, even at this large research university, was also in the red, but the clinical side absorbed a lot of the costs of running a nursing program. And why not? It's the medical center that will end up hiring some of their own graduates! They should pay for their future employees' training. How a tiny rural college with no history of STEM and no tech/medical infrastructure can start and run a nursing program is beyond me. I lived through a college's demise, when it tried to make nursing its signature program. [UPDATE: it was already beginning to circle the drain before the nursing experiment--the prioritizing of the nursing program just accelerated the inevitable.]
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on September 17, 2019, 10:06:30 AM
Quote from: archaeo42 on September 17, 2019, 08:36:18 AM
What immediately popped to mind from Spork's description is the academic version of the gig economy. One staff member to oversee cheaper contractors.

One ring to rule them all...

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on September 17, 2019, 10:07:39 AM
Quote from: larryc on September 16, 2019, 10:55:42 PM
So what is going on here? Maybe the answers are in this thread and I missed them.

Why are so many small schools, most of which seem to have muddled along for a century, closing? What is the big picture explanation? The economy is good (in a way), young people are going to college. The public universities have raised tuition radically in the last decades--I would think that the private schools would be relatively more competitive. So why are they dying?

It's not just the inky dinky places.  I'm at a private, mid-sized regional comprehensive in an allied health field.  We have a very good academic reputation and a reasonable student-life experience.  When I started here 20+ yrs ago, there were ~75 programs in my discipline nationally.  Now there are > 140.  Every little broken-a$$ bible college that was concerned about making payroll opened up a program.  We used to graduate 110 students a year.  Our incoming class this year is < 70.  It's a function of more competition for students, decreased student interest in my discipline and a tightened job market upon graduation.  Multiply 40 fewer students x $30,000 a year X a 6 year curriculum and you have a problem on your hands.  Our law school has suffered the same woes the rest of the law school market has suffered.

Next - demographics. The baby boom is over.  The baby boom echo is over.  Any 2nd degree echo that existed is over.  Here in flyover country, the cohort of 18-22 yr old residential college students is far smaller than it was say 10 years ago.  Our provost has been circulating an article predicting that the decreased birth rate during the 2008 recession means 15% fewer 18 year olds headed to college in 2026.  And since a college cohort lasts 4+ years, the economic impact of that goes out to 2030 or beyond. My uni has been late to the party in working to attract working age adult students, part-timers, first generation, English as a second language students, online programs, etc -- all of the demographic groups that are increasingly looking at college as a way to crawl up into  the middle class.

Our new(ish) president and provost seem to be aware of these issues and are working with the board to mitigate the consequences.  But we've been in deficit for the last 4 years, are predicting a deficit for the next 2 and then apparently a miracle will happen and by 2022, all is supposed to be well.

I'm monitoring my TIAA-CREF and ROTH-IRA accounts like a hawk and want to be ready to get out of here before the merde hits the fan.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on September 17, 2019, 04:15:11 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 17, 2019, 10:07:39 AM
Quote from: larryc on September 16, 2019, 10:55:42 PM
So what is going on here? Maybe the answers are in this thread and I missed them.

Why are so many small schools, most of which seem to have muddled along for a century, closing? What is the big picture explanation? The economy is good (in a way), young people are going to college. The public universities have raised tuition radically in the last decades--I would think that the private schools would be relatively more competitive. So why are they dying?

It's not just the inky dinky places.  I'm at a private, mid-sized regional comprehensive in an allied health field.  We have a very good academic reputation and a reasonable student-life experience.  When I started here 20+ yrs ago, there were ~75 programs in my discipline nationally.  Now there are > 140.  Every little broken-a$$ bible college that was concerned about making payroll opened up a program.  We used to graduate 110 students a year.  Our incoming class this year is < 70.  It's a function of more competition for students, decreased student interest in my discipline and a tightened job market upon graduation.  Multiply 40 fewer students x $30,000 a year X a 6 year curriculum and you have a problem on your hands.  Our law school has suffered the same woes the rest of the law school market has suffered.

Next - demographics. The baby boom is over.  The baby boom echo is over.  Any 2nd degree echo that existed is over.  Here in flyover country, the cohort of 18-22 yr old residential college students is far smaller than it was say 10 years ago.  Our provost has been circulating an article predicting that the decreased birth rate during the 2008 recession means 15% fewer 18 year olds headed to college in 2026.  And since a college cohort lasts 4+ years, the economic impact of that goes out to 2030 or beyond. My uni has been late to the party in working to attract working age adult students, part-timers, first generation, English as a second language students, online programs, etc -- all of the demographic groups that are increasingly looking at college as a way to crawl up into  the middle class.

Our new(ish) president and provost seem to be aware of these issues and are working with the board to mitigate the consequences.  But we've been in deficit for the last 4 years, are predicting a deficit for the next 2 and then apparently a miracle will happen and by 2022, all is supposed to be well.

I'm monitoring my TIAA-CREF and ROTH-IRA accounts like a hawk and want to be ready to get out of here before the merde hits the fan.

Details different at my place, but basic message the same: numbers dropping (both admission and retention), demographics challenging, international programming almost dead on arrival.

We just been tasked as a collective to solve one of 3 problems: admission, retention, and/or revenue. Some of the solutions are obvious, but unpalatable. Some would involve wholesale disruptions of institutional practice, which might work but which would also alienate lots of folks. Last time we tried this in an existential crisis, it split the community in ways that only decades have begun to heal.

I'm unlikely to be near the front of the line if serious cuts come, but I won't be at the back, either. Also watching retirement accounts.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on September 17, 2019, 06:15:33 PM
Quote from: Hibush on September 17, 2019, 07:58:38 AM
I used nursing as an example of something that tempts administrators. The comments show how challenging it is to do well.

I checked Petersons.com. There are over 1000 programs in the US. In Ohio (to pick a state with a significant rural college inventory), there are 33 nursing programs at schools with fewer than 2000 students. So there are places trying.
Super Dinky had a nursing program.  The break-even point financially was literally 3 students less than the maximum capacity of the program, which was an ongoing problem as the occasional student dropped out for personal reasons.  Admitting more freshmen doesn't fix the gap in an earlier cohort and stretches the program in bad ways because the cap of 8 in the practicum can't be raised, unlike most other courses in the college.  Thus, when someone doesn't come back sophomore year, that slot just remains empty until the cohort graduates.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on September 18, 2019, 05:36:25 AM
Edgewood College in Wisconsin is cutting faculty positions and planning to cut majors. (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/09/18/edgewood-college-cut-faculty-majors)

"Over the past five years, enrollment has shrunk by 30 percent. Edgewood has just under 450 faculty and staff and enrolled around 1,600 students for the 2016-17 year."

For perspective, Edgewood would have only 320 faculty and staff if they were running at the same employee/student ratio as Super Dinky did for 500 students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 18, 2019, 07:13:18 AM
University of Southern Maine spins off University of Maine School of Law: https://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2019/09/amidst-40-decline-in-applications-university-approves-law-school-reorganization.html (https://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2019/09/amidst-40-decline-in-applications-university-approves-law-school-reorganization.html).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 18, 2019, 04:28:02 PM
Wittenberg University?

https://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/local/wittenberg-university-cut-faculty-positions/b2Cafm8vfH1PCOWmyyDPFM/ (https://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/local/wittenberg-university-cut-faculty-positions/b2Cafm8vfH1PCOWmyyDPFM/)

Undergraduate FTE dropped from 2,158 in FY 2008 to 2,002 in FY 2017. Don't know what's been happening with enrollment there more recently.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 18, 2019, 04:51:58 PM
Quote from: spork on September 18, 2019, 07:13:18 AM
University of Southern Maine spins off University of Maine School of Law: https://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2019/09/amidst-40-decline-in-applications-university-approves-law-school-reorganization.html (https://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2019/09/amidst-40-decline-in-applications-university-approves-law-school-reorganization.html).

"budget shortfalls, faculty positions that have gone unfilled or without pay raises, a lack of fundraising and marketing schemes, and an enrollment strategy that relies too heavily on scholarships. "

It looks like everything is going according to plan. The plan is to vanish.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on September 19, 2019, 06:13:34 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 18, 2019, 04:51:58 PM
Quote from: spork on September 18, 2019, 07:13:18 AM
University of Southern Maine spins off University of Maine School of Law: https://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2019/09/amidst-40-decline-in-applications-university-approves-law-school-reorganization.html (https://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2019/09/amidst-40-decline-in-applications-university-approves-law-school-reorganization.html).

"budget shortfalls, faculty positions that have gone unfilled or without pay raises, a lack of fundraising and marketing schemes, and an enrollment strategy that relies too heavily on scholarships. "

It looks like everything is going according to plan. The plan is to vanish.

Wut? No! They have a plan. They are changing their name! https://www.wmtw.com/article/usm-considers-name-change/28907136

Maybe this actually fits with the plan to vanish: USM is going into witness protection.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on September 20, 2019, 11:45:54 AM
When someone wants to look like they're doing something innovative without actually doing anything at all, one of the most common tactics is to just rebrand the title of something that already exists.

Big Urban College is quite good at this. We've renamed something like four-ish basic services or facilities within the last year. So far, the only noticeable changes are that the college employees have to waste time and resources destroying all of the old titles on documents/signs/webpages/addresses and spend lots of time and money creating new titles for documents/signs/webpages/addresses.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on September 20, 2019, 04:13:21 PM
Quote from: spork on September 18, 2019, 04:28:02 PM
Wittenberg University?

https://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/local/wittenberg-university-cut-faculty-positions/b2Cafm8vfH1PCOWmyyDPFM/ (https://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/local/wittenberg-university-cut-faculty-positions/b2Cafm8vfH1PCOWmyyDPFM/)

Undergraduate FTE dropped from 2,158 in FY 2008 to 2,002 in FY 2017. Don't know what's been happening with enrollment there more recently.

Oh, dear. We did an early liturgical dance piece there in the 1970s.

Their chaplain at the time was a good friend to the arts.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: rth253 on September 23, 2019, 06:50:42 AM
University of Alabama?

"The fall enrollment for the University of Alabama is 38,103 students, a slight decrease from 2018 though the campus did see gains in its freshman class.

The first-time undergraduate student enrollment increased from 6,663 students in 2018 to 6,764 this fall, according to preliminary enrollment information released by UA on Thursday.

Overall, enrollment decreased by 289 students compared to last year. The overall enrollment for fall 2018 was 38,392. Graduate and professional student enrollment saw minor changes. Graduate students decreased from 4,916 to 4,868, and professional students including law and medicine decreased from 446 to 437.

It is the second year enrollment numbers have slipped slightly. In 2018, the university saw the end of a 16-year streak of continuous growth that peaked in 2017 with a historic high of 38,563. UA President Stuart Bell indicated in his 2016 strategic plan that he envisioned more measured growth — including recruiting more graduate students as the university focused on enhancing its research profile — following the period of expansion that saw the student body nearly double."

https://www.tuscaloosanews.com/news/20190911/university-of-alabama-enrollment-dips-slightly
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Directional_State_U on September 24, 2019, 10:34:30 AM
Regarding changes in rankings affecting enrollment. This seems likely. I know at my directional state university which is nationally ranked, we've spoken with potential students and their parents who think we are ranked lower than institutions that are ranked regionally. It is very unclear to the general public that the regional rankings are not a subset of the national rankings in many cases.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 29, 2019, 07:49:29 AM
University of North Dakota -- "My University Is Dying":

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190925-my-university-is-dying?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2EmgwlkeISLqFEXU6hHBR5Xg-oUISdXGi9vqV1vTblBhhP3d0JvbzRaUFdpT19uVkhZOVlKTEItQjIyRFcwUFZkak5MelVKa3YwNHdoZw (https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190925-my-university-is-dying?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2EmgwlkeISLqFEXU6hHBR5Xg-oUISdXGi9vqV1vTblBhhP3d0JvbzRaUFdpT19uVkhZOVlKTEItQjIyRFcwUFZkak5MelVKa3YwNHdoZw)

This is a Twitter link to the Chronicle Review. Not paywalled for now.

"No one from my college, which is the largest at UND, a flagship state school, went up for tenure last year, because there was no one left who was eligible to apply."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 02, 2019, 09:35:08 AM
Roosevelt U. and Robert Morris U. merging: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/10/02/roosevelt-plans-acquire-chicago-neighbor-robert-morris (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/10/02/roosevelt-plans-acquire-chicago-neighbor-robert-morris).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 05, 2019, 02:39:29 PM
For people with less ability to procrastinate than me . . . university IRS filings for FY 2018 are now publicly available. Mills College, whose financial troubles were profiled in the media and elsewhere a few years ago, shows positive net revenue for FY 2017 of ~ $700K -- basically it broke even, maybe because of the donation and sale of securities. But for FY 2018, it was back in the red again, with $8.9 million in losses.

Mills College has had negative net revenue every year since FY 2008 except for FY 2017.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 05, 2019, 04:03:03 PM
Quote from: spork on October 05, 2019, 02:39:29 PM
For people with less ability to procrastinate than me . . . university IRS filings for FY 2018 are now publicly available. Mills College, whose financial troubles were profiled in the media and elsewhere a few years ago, shows positive net revenue for FY 2017 of ~ $700K -- basically it broke even, maybe because of the donation and sale of securities. But for FY 2018, it was back in the red again, with $8.9 million in losses.

Mills College has had negative net revenue every year since FY 2008 except for FY 2017.

That is a loss of $7200 per student. Did they lay off the bursar or something?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on October 06, 2019, 07:51:42 AM
More from Alaska:

<unpaywalled for now> Alaska Accreditor Issues Letter (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Alaska-s-Accreditor-Issues-a/247256?key=OaLXj7e-XZPZeHLnkkXFWpvH9tnR_P4irZSZkMvu3619_L9Dnjjn3Vid9I8HCwZhYlFMLWsyVV9NTkhxbjdSeVhxcjIwU0t1ZFBncXhqQmVEbTQ4ZHhtdy00RQ)

<unpaywalled for now> Former Alaska Chancellors Express Alarm Over Accreditation Letter (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Former-Alaska-Chancellors/247281?key=OaLXj7e-XZPZeHLnkkXFWjswnSrDqzU-N1W7m9wRsXQOxt50TdasenjoC3yOrVSqVjliWjhld0pZOHpPQ2YwLTRzUWZnRF9UamdHSlRGWHlKYlRjcG1mRTlKTQ)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Bede the Vulnerable on October 06, 2019, 07:23:38 PM
Quote from: spork on October 02, 2019, 09:35:08 AM
Roosevelt U. and Robert Morris U. merging: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/10/02/roosevelt-plans-acquire-chicago-neighbor-robert-morris (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/10/02/roosevelt-plans-acquire-chicago-neighbor-robert-morris).

RU is essentially taking over RMU.  This will give RU some ready-made career-oriented programs.  I have a great affection for Roosevelt, which I attended in the 1980s.  It was in terrible financial shape then.  But its two most recent presidents have had some vision, and it seems to be in a much better position now. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: archaeo42 on October 07, 2019, 07:47:54 AM
Quote from: Hibush on October 05, 2019, 04:03:03 PM
Quote from: spork on October 05, 2019, 02:39:29 PM
For people with less ability to procrastinate than me . . . university IRS filings for FY 2018 are now publicly available. Mills College, whose financial troubles were profiled in the media and elsewhere a few years ago, shows positive net revenue for FY 2017 of ~ $700K -- basically it broke even, maybe because of the donation and sale of securities. But for FY 2018, it was back in the red again, with $8.9 million in losses.

Mills College has had negative net revenue every year since FY 2008 except for FY 2017.

That is a loss of $7200 per student. Did they lay off the bursar or something?

I knew someone who worked as staff at Mills several years ago. They eventually left because of the mismanagement - from what they talked about it seemed hiring priorities were focused on alumni rather than people who had the necessary skills for various positions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 07, 2019, 10:09:05 AM
Quote from: archaeo42 on October 07, 2019, 07:47:54 AM
Quote from: Hibush on October 05, 2019, 04:03:03 PM
Quote from: spork on October 05, 2019, 02:39:29 PM
For people with less ability to procrastinate than me . . . university IRS filings for FY 2018 are now publicly available. Mills College, whose financial troubles were profiled in the media and elsewhere a few years ago, shows positive net revenue for FY 2017 of ~ $700K -- basically it broke even, maybe because of the donation and sale of securities. But for FY 2018, it was back in the red again, with $8.9 million in losses.

Mills College has had negative net revenue every year since FY 2008 except for FY 2017.

That is a loss of $7200 per student. Did they lay off the bursar or something?

I knew someone who worked as staff at Mills several years ago. They eventually left because of the mismanagement - from what they talked about it seemed hiring priorities were focused on alumni rather than people who had the necessary skills for various positions.

So the staff in the bursar's office might be alumnae who neglect to send out the tuition bills?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on October 07, 2019, 06:55:38 PM
Quote from: Hibush on October 07, 2019, 10:09:05 AM
So the staff in the bursar's office might be alumnae who neglect to send out the tuition bills?
Interesting assumption about gender of the staff
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 07, 2019, 07:22:50 PM
Quote from: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on October 07, 2019, 06:55:38 PM
Quote from: Hibush on October 07, 2019, 10:09:05 AM
So the staff in the bursar's office might be alumnae who neglect to send out the tuition bills?
Interesting assumption about gender of the staff
It is a women's college.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on October 09, 2019, 05:17:34 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on October 06, 2019, 07:51:42 AM
More from Alaska:

<unpaywalled for now> Alaska Accreditor Issues Letter (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Alaska-s-Accreditor-Issues-a/247256?key=OaLXj7e-XZPZeHLnkkXFWpvH9tnR_P4irZSZkMvu3619_L9Dnjjn3Vid9I8HCwZhYlFMLWsyVV9NTkhxbjdSeVhxcjIwU0t1ZFBncXhqQmVEbTQ4ZHhtdy00RQ)

<unpaywalled for now> Former Alaska Chancellors Express Alarm Over Accreditation Letter (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Former-Alaska-Chancellors/247281?key=OaLXj7e-XZPZeHLnkkXFWjswnSrDqzU-N1W7m9wRsXQOxt50TdasenjoC3yOrVSqVjliWjhld0pZOHpPQ2YwLTRzUWZnRF9UamdHSlRGWHlKYlRjcG1mRTlKTQ)

The current news out of Alaska is they are postponing discussion of consolidating the three universities into one university system: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/10/09/alaska-system-puts-consolidation-hold
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sinenomine on October 16, 2019, 10:56:58 AM
Hampshire College has announced their new curriculum -- no majors, and no departments.

https://www.westernmassnews.com/news/hampshire-college-doing-away-with-traditional-curriculum-structure/article_7a007486-f02c-11e9-bf3b-6f1f9f7be452.html (https://www.westernmassnews.com/news/hampshire-college-doing-away-with-traditional-curriculum-structure/article_7a007486-f02c-11e9-bf3b-6f1f9f7be452.html)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on October 17, 2019, 05:02:56 AM
They have the most interesting wikipedia page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampshire_College
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on October 17, 2019, 07:36:23 PM
Quote from: Aster on October 17, 2019, 05:02:56 AM
They have the most interesting wikipedia page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampshire_College

Their school colors are apparently Purple, Blue, Red, Maroon & White.  Not sure I've ever seen a school with 5 colors.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 18, 2019, 04:49:59 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on October 17, 2019, 07:36:23 PM
Quote from: Aster on October 17, 2019, 05:02:56 AM
They have the most interesting wikipedia page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampshire_College

Their school colors are apparently Purple, Blue, Red, Maroon & White.  Not sure I've ever seen a school with 5 colors.

Maybe that's in line with their curriculum; students can choose the colours they prefer, rather than being restricted to a couple of prescribed ones.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on October 18, 2019, 06:22:57 AM
Those 5 colors represent the 5 schools that contributed to the founding of the college.

Hampshire might be the successor to Antioch of Ohio....

M.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: nonntt on October 18, 2019, 12:14:28 PM
Quote from: spork on September 29, 2019, 07:49:29 AM
University of North Dakota -- "My University Is Dying":

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190925-my-university-is-dying?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2EmgwlkeISLqFEXU6hHBR5Xg-oUISdXGi9vqV1vTblBhhP3d0JvbzRaUFdpT19uVkhZOVlKTEItQjIyRFcwUFZkak5MelVKa3YwNHdoZw (https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190925-my-university-is-dying?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2EmgwlkeISLqFEXU6hHBR5Xg-oUISdXGi9vqV1vTblBhhP3d0JvbzRaUFdpT19uVkhZOVlKTEItQjIyRFcwUFZkak5MelVKa3YwNHdoZw)

This is a Twitter link to the Chronicle Review. Not paywalled for now.

"No one from my college, which is the largest at UND, a flagship state school, went up for tenure last year, because there was no one left who was eligible to apply."

I've talked to insiders at Montana and North Dakota. Montana lost enrollment due to scandal and bad press, and the students went to MSU instead, as one poster already mentioned. (I once asked a colleague at MSU what the secret to their success was, as they had raised enrollments 50% in their humanities program. They gushed about the dedicated teaching in their department. Later I discovered that MSU's overall enrollment had risen by 50% thanks to the woes of the U of M, solving that mystery.)

As for UND, the article gives a very accurate description of what things have been like there for the last 5-6 years. Lots of bread and butter programs cut down to the bone and then some, with severe impacts on program quality that administrators refuse to see. Just recently things have improved a tick, though, since they pawned off their hapless president on the U of Colorado, and there was even a pay bump for the first time since the early 2010's.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on October 18, 2019, 09:30:59 PM
Quote from: nonntt on October 18, 2019, 12:14:28 PM
Quote from: spork on September 29, 2019, 07:49:29 AM
University of North Dakota -- "My University Is Dying":

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190925-my-university-is-dying?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2EmgwlkeISLqFEXU6hHBR5Xg-oUISdXGi9vqV1vTblBhhP3d0JvbzRaUFdpT19uVkhZOVlKTEItQjIyRFcwUFZkak5MelVKa3YwNHdoZw (https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190925-my-university-is-dying?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2EmgwlkeISLqFEXU6hHBR5Xg-oUISdXGi9vqV1vTblBhhP3d0JvbzRaUFdpT19uVkhZOVlKTEItQjIyRFcwUFZkak5MelVKa3YwNHdoZw)

This is a Twitter link to the Chronicle Review. Not paywalled for now.

"No one from my college, which is the largest at UND, a flagship state school, went up for tenure last year, because there was no one left who was eligible to apply."

I've talked to insiders at Montana and North Dakota. Montana lost enrollment due to scandal and bad press, and the students went to MSU instead, as one poster already mentioned. (I once asked a colleague at MSU what the secret to their success was, as they had raised enrollments 50% in their humanities program. They gushed about the dedicated teaching in their department. Later I discovered that MSU's overall enrollment had risen by 50% thanks to the woes of the U of M, solving that mystery.)

<SNIP>

Oh, for Pete's sake. Give some credit to MSU!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on October 19, 2019, 03:57:07 AM
Meanwhile at Elizabethtown College, a group of students and alumni are planning a protest against the administration's reorganization plans, which calls for the elimination of several liberal arts majors and strengthening its STEM-related ones:

https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/e-town-college-students-alumni-to-protest-liberal-arts-cuts/article_d1391884-f1e4-11e9-89f5-f7f7e983417c.html



Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on October 19, 2019, 05:20:22 AM
University of Central Arkansas is offering retirement buyout for up to 178 faculty and staff members, as part of a restructuring plan in the face of expected decrease in new enrollment:

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2019/oct/12/early-retirement-part-of-uca-plan-20191/

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on October 19, 2019, 05:21:28 AM
Quote from: picard on October 19, 2019, 03:57:07 AM
Meanwhile at Elizabethtown College, a group of students and alumni are planning a protest against the administration's reorganization plans, which calls for the elimination of several liberal arts majors and strengthening its STEM-related ones:

https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/e-town-college-students-alumni-to-protest-liberal-arts-cuts/article_d1391884-f1e4-11e9-89f5-f7f7e983417c.html

https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/elizabethtown-college-cutting-staff-theater-and-philosophy-programs-to-combat/article_8bd13c38-913e-11e9-80d5-c7bc0564da47.html  indicates

Quote
In those programs are 22 students, all of whom will be able to complete their programs
...
As of May 21 — when the email was sent — the college received 379 deposits from first-time, first-year students, Strikwerda said. The 2020 preliminary operating budget "was built and approved for an entering class of 420," he said.
...
Theater productions in 2019-20 will go on as planned, and Elizabethtown says it will engage "outside support" for future shows.

In a move toward more in-demand offerings, the college is promoting its new physician assistant master's program as well as new majors in marketing, finance, financial economics, data science and criminal justice.

For those who, like me had never heard of this college, the current undergrad enrollment is about 1600 (https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/elizabethtown-college-3262) so a 420 entering class isn't absurd.  "Every full-time student at Elizabethtown College is expected to live in a college-owned residential facility, but students can qualify for an exemption if they are classified as commuters." (ibid).  99% of undergrads at Elizabethtown College are full-time (https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/school/?212197-Elizabethtown-College).

Elizabethtown College has a religious affiliation with Church of Brethren about whom Wikipedia has some interesting tidbits.  Relevant to our continuing discussion is having only 120k members in the US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Brethren).  The loss of peace studies resonates with alumni and friends due to the religious emphasis on pacifism.

According to College ScoreCard, the most popular academic programs for recent graduates include:

Business, Management, Marketing, and Related Support Services (16%)
Health Professions and Related Programs (14%)
Engineering (10%)
Biological and Biomedical Sciences (10%)
Social Sciences (9%) (https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/school/?212197-Elizabethtown-College)

The Carnegie Classification for Undergraduate Instructional Program is: Balanced arts & sciences/professions, some graduate coexistence  (http://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/lookup/view_institution.php?unit_id=212197&start_page=lookup.php&clq=%7B%22ipug2005_ids%22%3A%22%22%2C%22ipgrad2005_ids%22%3A%22%22%2C%22enrprofile2005_ids%22%3A%22%22%2C%22ugprfile2005_ids%22%3A%22%22%2C%22sizeset2005_ids%22%3A%22%22%2C%22basic2005_ids%22%3A%22%22%2C%22eng2005_ids%22%3A%22%22%2C%22search_string%22%3A%22elizabethtown+college%22%2C%22level%22%3A%22%22%2C%22control%22%3A%22%22%2C%22accred%22%3A%22%22%2C%22state%22%3A%22%22%2C%22region%22%3A%22%22%2C%22urbanicity%22%3A%22%22%2C%22womens%22%3A%22%22%2C%22hbcu%22%3A%22%22%2C%22hsi%22%3A%22%22%2C%22tribal%22%3A%22%22%2C%22msi%22%3A%22%22%2C%22landgrant%22%3A%22%22%2C%22coplac%22%3A%22%22%2C%22urban%22%3A%22%22%2C%22community%22%3A%22%22%7D).

Thus, it looks to me like the time to be concerned about losing the liberal arts at E-town was years ago, not this summer.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 19, 2019, 02:57:56 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on October 19, 2019, 05:21:28 AM
Elizabethtown College has a religious affiliation with Church of Brethren about whom Wikipedia has some interesting tidbits.  Relevant to our continuing discussion is having only 120k members in the US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Brethren).  The loss of peace studies resonates with alumni and friends due to the religious emphasis on pacifism.

Thus, it looks to me like the time to be concerned about losing the liberal arts at E-town was years ago, not this summer.

We could use more peace studies programs now, not fewer.

Of the "peace denominations," the Quakers probably have the easiest time attracting outsiders to a college based on the doctrinal values. The others, Brethren and Mennonite, can be too austere. I hope the peace-studies programs at Quaker-affiliated schools continue to thrive.

Despite only having 120,000 members, the Brethren have six colleges. That's a big commitment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on October 19, 2019, 10:48:03 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on October 19, 2019, 05:21:28 AM
Quote from: picard on October 19, 2019, 03:57:07 AM
Meanwhile at Elizabethtown College, a group of students and alumni are planning a protest against the administration's reorganization plans, which calls for the elimination of several liberal arts majors and strengthening its STEM-related ones:

https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/e-town-college-students-alumni-to-protest-liberal-arts-cuts/article_d1391884-f1e4-11e9-89f5-f7f7e983417c.html

https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/elizabethtown-college-cutting-staff-theater-and-philosophy-programs-to-combat/article_8bd13c38-913e-11e9-80d5-c7bc0564da47.html  indicates

Quote
For those who, like me had never heard of this college, the current undergrad enrollment is about 1600 (https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/elizabethtown-college-3262) so a 420 entering class isn't absurd.  "Every full-time student at Elizabethtown College is expected to live in a college-owned residential facility, but students can qualify for an exemption if they are classified as commuters." (ibid).  99% of undergrads at Elizabethtown College are full-time (https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/school/?212197-Elizabethtown-College).

Thus, it looks to me like the time to be concerned about losing the liberal arts at E-town was years ago, not this summer.


Sadly Elizabethtown's problems resemble those many SLACs in the Midwest and Northeastern regions - small, residential LAC which might be offering high-quality education delivered by dedicated faculty members in small-size classes for those who attend it, but of which future are uncertain due to 1) decreasing enrollment (thanks to decreasing number of new HS students from these regions), 2) low endowment (less than $150 to $200 million, E-town stands at $76 million as of 2017), and 3) the inability to adapt to new higher education environment as indicated by declining number of HS students, declining number of college students interested in liberal arts majors, and decreasing number of traditional 18 to 22 year old students in many of states in these regions - those who meet the criteria of 'full-time, residential' students indicated above.

I was a SLAC graduate from a college in the Midwestern region. I still recalled fondly time I studied there two decades-plus ago. I still believe the experience I had as an undergrad at that institution (e.g., the intimate learning and  the one-on-one interaction with faculty members) had helped me to choose and pursue career in academia - something I probably would have never chosen had I gone to college in a larger institution. However, these days I wonder whether my college and many others similar to it within the region would still be around in the next 10 years, let alone in the next 50 to 100.

I know its been struggling for sometime w/similar issues that E-town and other SLAC featured on this thread, but so far it has managed to survive and I have not heard its troubles reported in the papers (at least not yet). But I dread the prospect of it going under and I wonder whether its day of reckoning will be coming sooner or later :(.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on October 20, 2019, 12:34:59 AM
Colleges run by real,,healthy religions denominations can expect to survve as long as the denomination desires to -have it do so.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on October 20, 2019, 06:35:22 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 20, 2019, 12:34:59 AM
Colleges run by real,,healthy religions denominations can expect to survve as long as the denomination desires to -have it do so.

The keys here are:

(1) healthy.  6 full-time colleges seems like a lot for a religion that only has 120k members, especially as overall college-going population declines.
(2) as long as the denomination desires to have it do so and desires enough to jump all the hoops by the accreditors.  Eastern Nazarene seems not long for this world after Massachusetts shot down the plan to consolidate with another religious institution of the same denomination several states away (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=640.msg11366#msg11366).  The Jesuits dropped support for Wheeling University after a big enough change in mission. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/04/05/two-years-after-rescue-wheeling-jesuit-guts-faculty-programs)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Anselm on October 20, 2019, 09:11:46 AM
Quote from: nonntt on October 18, 2019, 12:14:28 PM
Quote from: spork on September 29, 2019, 07:49:29 AM
University of North Dakota -- "My University Is Dying":

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190925-my-university-is-dying?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2EmgwlkeISLqFEXU6hHBR5Xg-oUISdXGi9vqV1vTblBhhP3d0JvbzRaUFdpT19uVkhZOVlKTEItQjIyRFcwUFZkak5MelVKa3YwNHdoZw (https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190925-my-university-is-dying?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2EmgwlkeISLqFEXU6hHBR5Xg-oUISdXGi9vqV1vTblBhhP3d0JvbzRaUFdpT19uVkhZOVlKTEItQjIyRFcwUFZkak5MelVKa3YwNHdoZw)

This is a Twitter link to the Chronicle Review. Not paywalled for now.

"No one from my college, which is the largest at UND, a flagship state school, went up for tenure last year, because there was no one left who was eligible to apply."

I've talked to insiders at Montana and North Dakota. Montana lost enrollment due to scandal and bad press, and the students went to MSU instead, as one poster already mentioned. (I once asked a colleague at MSU what the secret to their success was, as they had raised enrollments 50% in their humanities program. They gushed about the dedicated teaching in their department. Later I discovered that MSU's overall enrollment had risen by 50% thanks to the woes of the U of M, solving that mystery.)

As for UND, the article gives a very accurate description of what things have been like there for the last 5-6 years. Lots of bread and butter programs cut down to the bone and then some, with severe impacts on program quality that administrators refuse to see. Just recently things have improved a tick, though, since they pawned off their hapless president on the U of Colorado, and there was even a pay bump for the first time since the early 2010's.

How can North Dakota be hurting for money with the big shale oil boom? 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on October 20, 2019, 12:46:16 PM
Elizabethtown is run by the Church of the Brethren but will also regularly get numerous students from other related pietist and Anabaptist sects.  Indeed, it is the home to the Young Center for the study of Anabaptist and Pietist Groups, likely the best such center and the home of Donald Kraybill, the leading scholar of the Amish and Mennonites today.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on October 20, 2019, 04:57:23 PM
Quote from: Anselm on October 20, 2019, 09:11:46 AM
Quote from: nonntt on October 18, 2019, 12:14:28 PM
Quote from: spork on September 29, 2019, 07:49:29 AM
University of North Dakota -- "My University Is Dying":

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190925-my-university-is-dying?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2EmgwlkeISLqFEXU6hHBR5Xg-oUISdXGi9vqV1vTblBhhP3d0JvbzRaUFdpT19uVkhZOVlKTEItQjIyRFcwUFZkak5MelVKa3YwNHdoZw (https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190925-my-university-is-dying?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2EmgwlkeISLqFEXU6hHBR5Xg-oUISdXGi9vqV1vTblBhhP3d0JvbzRaUFdpT19uVkhZOVlKTEItQjIyRFcwUFZkak5MelVKa3YwNHdoZw)

This is a Twitter link to the Chronicle Review. Not paywalled for now.

"No one from my college, which is the largest at UND, a flagship state school, went up for tenure last year, because there was no one left who was eligible to apply."

I've talked to insiders at Montana and North Dakota. Montana lost enrollment due to scandal and bad press, and the students went to MSU instead, as one poster already mentioned. (I once asked a colleague at MSU what the secret to their success was, as they had raised enrollments 50% in their humanities program. They gushed about the dedicated teaching in their department. Later I discovered that MSU's overall enrollment had risen by 50% thanks to the woes of the U of M, solving that mystery.)

As for UND, the article gives a very accurate description of what things have been like there for the last 5-6 years. Lots of bread and butter programs cut down to the bone and then some, with severe impacts on program quality that administrators refuse to see. Just recently things have improved a tick, though, since they pawned off their hapless president on the U of Colorado, and there was even a pay bump for the first time since the early 2010's.

How can North Dakota be hurting for money with the big shale oil boom?

If they aren't taxing it, then the only people benefitting are the employees and the companies' management and investors doing the booming.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on October 21, 2019, 05:00:41 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on October 20, 2019, 04:57:23 PM
Quote from: Anselm on October 20, 2019, 09:11:46 AM
Quote from: nonntt on October 18, 2019, 12:14:28 PM
Quote from: spork on September 29, 2019, 07:49:29 AM
University of North Dakota -- "My University Is Dying":

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190925-my-university-is-dying?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2EmgwlkeISLqFEXU6hHBR5Xg-oUISdXGi9vqV1vTblBhhP3d0JvbzRaUFdpT19uVkhZOVlKTEItQjIyRFcwUFZkak5MelVKa3YwNHdoZw (https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190925-my-university-is-dying?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2EmgwlkeISLqFEXU6hHBR5Xg-oUISdXGi9vqV1vTblBhhP3d0JvbzRaUFdpT19uVkhZOVlKTEItQjIyRFcwUFZkak5MelVKa3YwNHdoZw)

This is a Twitter link to the Chronicle Review. Not paywalled for now.

"No one from my college, which is the largest at UND, a flagship state school, went up for tenure last year, because there was no one left who was eligible to apply."

I've talked to insiders at Montana and North Dakota. Montana lost enrollment due to scandal and bad press, and the students went to MSU instead, as one poster already mentioned. (I once asked a colleague at MSU what the secret to their success was, as they had raised enrollments 50% in their humanities program. They gushed about the dedicated teaching in their department. Later I discovered that MSU's overall enrollment had risen by 50% thanks to the woes of the U of M, solving that mystery.)

As for UND, the article gives a very accurate description of what things have been like there for the last 5-6 years. Lots of bread and butter programs cut down to the bone and then some, with severe impacts on program quality that administrators refuse to see. Just recently things have improved a tick, though, since they pawned off their hapless president on the U of Colorado, and there was even a pay bump for the first time since the early 2010's.

How can North Dakota be hurting for money with the big shale oil boom?

If they aren't taxing it, then the only people benefitting are the employees and the companies' management and investors doing the booming.

Even if the big shale oil boom goes into a general fund, like New Mexico, smart people know that one holds back funds for the rainy day that will be coming instead of spending it all now on temporary things or, worse, committing to the same level of funding for future years that will definitely include rainy days.

"Lots of bread and butter programs cut down to the bone and then some, with severe impacts on program quality that administrators refuse to see. "  Is this a case of some faculty living in the past because they know the importance of their own field, but they don't have a big enough picture to realize how the university has to change because the world has changed?  Reducing, say, the English department where few students are studying so that the CS or other department with booming student enrollment can hire faculty is different from the university as a whole dying. 

Few places have strong Latin and Greek departments any more because they are no longer required for all students.  Many of the current general education requirements in research institutions are likely to be replaced by different entrance standards (e.g., already met the checkbox requirements through AP, dual enrollment, dual credit) or changing to more integrated experiences because the evidence for standalone one-off courses is pretty weak in terms of ensuring that students acquire the skills they need like communication.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 21, 2019, 07:47:28 AM
Quote from: picard on October 19, 2019, 05:20:22 AM
University of Central Arkansas is offering retirement buyout for up to 178 faculty and staff members, as part of a restructuring plan in the face of expected decrease in new enrollment:

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2019/oct/12/early-retirement-part-of-uca-plan-20191/

Well, it's probably best that they're trying to retrench now, instead of waiting until they've already fallen into an emergency.  But it's sad to see that happen to another Arkansas college.  UCA is my mother's principal alma mater.  She has both undergrad and grad degrees from there.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 21, 2019, 07:51:10 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on October 21, 2019, 05:00:41 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on October 20, 2019, 04:57:23 PM
Quote from: Anselm on October 20, 2019, 09:11:46 AM
Quote from: nonntt on October 18, 2019, 12:14:28 PM
Quote from: spork on September 29, 2019, 07:49:29 AM
University of North Dakota -- "My University Is Dying":

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190925-my-university-is-dying?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2EmgwlkeISLqFEXU6hHBR5Xg-oUISdXGi9vqV1vTblBhhP3d0JvbzRaUFdpT19uVkhZOVlKTEItQjIyRFcwUFZkak5MelVKa3YwNHdoZw (https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190925-my-university-is-dying?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2EmgwlkeISLqFEXU6hHBR5Xg-oUISdXGi9vqV1vTblBhhP3d0JvbzRaUFdpT19uVkhZOVlKTEItQjIyRFcwUFZkak5MelVKa3YwNHdoZw)

This is a Twitter link to the Chronicle Review. Not paywalled for now.

"No one from my college, which is the largest at UND, a flagship state school, went up for tenure last year, because there was no one left who was eligible to apply."

I've talked to insiders at Montana and North Dakota. Montana lost enrollment due to scandal and bad press, and the students went to MSU instead, as one poster already mentioned. (I once asked a colleague at MSU what the secret to their success was, as they had raised enrollments 50% in their humanities program. They gushed about the dedicated teaching in their department. Later I discovered that MSU's overall enrollment had risen by 50% thanks to the woes of the U of M, solving that mystery.)

As for UND, the article gives a very accurate description of what things have been like there for the last 5-6 years. Lots of bread and butter programs cut down to the bone and then some, with severe impacts on program quality that administrators refuse to see. Just recently things have improved a tick, though, since they pawned off their hapless president on the U of Colorado, and there was even a pay bump for the first time since the early 2010's.

How can North Dakota be hurting for money with the big shale oil boom?

If they aren't taxing it, then the only people benefitting are the employees and the companies' management and investors doing the booming.

Even if the big shale oil boom goes into a general fund, like New Mexico, smart people know that one holds back funds for the rainy day that will be coming instead of spending it all now on temporary things or, worse, committing to the same level of funding for future years that will definitely include rainy days.

It seems like communities that have ever experienced a major resource boom are like gamblers who've managed to get lucky at some point--they're convinced from that time on that there's always another big lucky strike ahead, so the rules about economic prudence just don't apply to them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on October 21, 2019, 09:25:08 PM
Quote from: apl68 on October 21, 2019, 07:47:28 AM
Quote from: picard on October 19, 2019, 05:20:22 AM
University of Central Arkansas is offering retirement buyout for up to 178 faculty and staff members, as part of a restructuring plan in the face of expected decrease in new enrollment:

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2019/oct/12/early-retirement-part-of-uca-plan-20191/

Well, it's probably best that they're trying to retrench now, instead of waiting until they've already fallen into an emergency.  But it's sad to see that happen to another Arkansas college.  UCA is my mother's principal alma mater.  She has both undergrad and grad degrees from there.

Agreed. The article mentioned Univ of Arkansas - Little Rock and Arkansas State had also sponsored buyout schemes to their employees as part of restructuring plan over the past three years.

Among private liberal arts schools in the state, Lyon College had endured financial crisis in recent years, albeit its seems to rebound under the leadership of a new president, https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/08/02/size-reduction-lyon-college-board-allows-college-better-respond-problems

Is the main problem in Arkansas similar to those of other mid-sized states featured in this thread, i.e., red states with declining state commitments to higher education and declining high school students enrollment/lack of young people living within the state? Or are there other local dynamics at play
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 22, 2019, 02:41:09 AM
Long profile of Hampshire College: https://www.washingtonpost.com/magazine/2019/10/21/downfall-hampshire-college-broken-business-model-american-higher-education/?arc404=true (https://www.washingtonpost.com/magazine/2019/10/21/downfall-hampshire-college-broken-business-model-american-higher-education/?arc404=true).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 22, 2019, 08:00:59 AM
Quote from: picard on October 21, 2019, 09:25:08 PM
Quote from: apl68 on October 21, 2019, 07:47:28 AM
Quote from: picard on October 19, 2019, 05:20:22 AM
University of Central Arkansas is offering retirement buyout for up to 178 faculty and staff members, as part of a restructuring plan in the face of expected decrease in new enrollment:

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2019/oct/12/early-retirement-part-of-uca-plan-20191/

Well, it's probably best that they're trying to retrench now, instead of waiting until they've already fallen into an emergency.  But it's sad to see that happen to another Arkansas college.  UCA is my mother's principal alma mater.  She has both undergrad and grad degrees from there.

Agreed. The article mentioned Univ of Arkansas - Little Rock and Arkansas State had also sponsored buyout schemes to their employees as part of restructuring plan over the past three years.

Among private liberal arts schools in the state, Lyon College had endured financial crisis in recent years, albeit its seems to rebound under the leadership of a new president, https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/08/02/size-reduction-lyon-college-board-allows-college-better-respond-problems

Is the main problem in Arkansas similar to those of other mid-sized states featured in this thread, i.e., red states with declining state commitments to higher education and declining high school students enrollment/lack of young people living within the state? Or are there other local dynamics at play

I suspect it's more a matter of demographic decline than declining commitment to higher education.  Arkansas hasn't gutted higher education funding and other public services in recent years, as so many other states have.  As for local circumstances, young people in recent years have been migrating toward the northwestern corner of the state, where nearly all the recent economic growth has been. 

In the rural area where I live I do see a certain skepticism about the value of a traditional college degree.  I don't think it's fair to call it deliberate anti-intellectualism, or to say that people have been buying into propaganda about how higher education is now The Enemy.  It's more a sense that the drive of a few years back to have "everybody" go to college oversold the benefits.  ANY kind of higher education, whether it's four-year college at the cheapest local state school, two-year college, or vo-tech costs fancy money to those who aren't well off and can't land serious scholarships. 

So of course those who go for it do so with a sense that future employment prospects should be their number-one concern.  I know our local high-school guidance counselor.  He steers many of his students away from college and toward more vocational options.  He knows that they don't like to read or study, and would be very unlikely to thrive in a college environment.  A vocational certification would cost less, require less time, and be more likely to make these students employable.  It's rational advice and a rational choice on the students' and families' part.

This doesn't mean there's been a wholesale flight from higher education locally.  I know and know of many local youths who are giving college a try.  Most of them are going to our local four-year college.  It's not a great school, but it's what's closest to home and what they can best afford.  Unfortunately our region of the state's long-term economic and demographic slide continues, so this school has also been losing students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 22, 2019, 08:46:10 AM
Quote from: apl68 on October 22, 2019, 08:00:59 AM


I suspect it's more a matter of demographic decline than declining commitment to higher education.  Arkansas hasn't gutted higher education funding and other public services in recent years, as so many other states have.  As for local circumstances, young people in recent years have been migrating toward the northwestern corner of the state, where nearly all the recent economic growth has been. 

In the rural area where I live I do see a certain skepticism about the value of a traditional college degree.  I don't think it's fair to call it deliberate anti-intellectualism, or to say that people have been buying into propaganda about how higher education is now The Enemy.  It's more a sense that the drive of a few years back to have "everybody" go to college oversold the benefits.  ANY kind of higher education, whether it's four-year college at the cheapest local state school, two-year college, or vo-tech costs fancy money to those who aren't well off and can't land serious scholarships. 


From the Wikipedia page for Hampshire College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampshire_College) from a few posts ago:
Quote

"The college is widely known for its alternative curriculum, socially liberal politics, focus on portfolios rather than distribution requirements, and its reliance on narrative evaluations instead of grades and GPAs.
.
.
.
On August 23, 2012, the school announced the establishment of a scholarship fund dedicated to helping undocumented students get degrees. It would give more than $25,000 each year to help an undocumented student pay for the $43,000-plus tuition."


So 4 years and something like $170k for tuition alone to get a non-specified degree with no grade records? Gee, why would anyone question the value of that????
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: archaeo42 on October 22, 2019, 10:55:32 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 22, 2019, 08:46:10 AM
Quote from: apl68 on October 22, 2019, 08:00:59 AM


I suspect it's more a matter of demographic decline than declining commitment to higher education.  Arkansas hasn't gutted higher education funding and other public services in recent years, as so many other states have.  As for local circumstances, young people in recent years have been migrating toward the northwestern corner of the state, where nearly all the recent economic growth has been. 

In the rural area where I live I do see a certain skepticism about the value of a traditional college degree.  I don't think it's fair to call it deliberate anti-intellectualism, or to say that people have been buying into propaganda about how higher education is now The Enemy.  It's more a sense that the drive of a few years back to have "everybody" go to college oversold the benefits.  ANY kind of higher education, whether it's four-year college at the cheapest local state school, two-year college, or vo-tech costs fancy money to those who aren't well off and can't land serious scholarships. 


From the Wikipedia page for Hampshire College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampshire_College) from a few posts ago:
Quote

"The college is widely known for its alternative curriculum, socially liberal politics, focus on portfolios rather than distribution requirements, and its reliance on narrative evaluations instead of grades and GPAs.
.
.
.
On August 23, 2012, the school announced the establishment of a scholarship fund dedicated to helping undocumented students get degrees. It would give more than $25,000 each year to help an undocumented student pay for the $43,000-plus tuition."


So 4 years and something like $170k for tuition alone to get a non-specified degree with no grade records? Gee, why would anyone question the value of that????

I know someone who graduated from here. What attracted him to the school was small classes, dedicated faculty, and the ability to explore a topic of interest in depth in the last 2 years for a senior thesis. He found that the alternative setup worked for him, although some students in his cohort did struggle with it - especially when it came to managing their time and resources related to their senior thesis. I knew him as a grad student and he's now in a TT position. The type of program works for someone who is motivated and self-directed. It's certainly not for everyone.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on October 23, 2019, 09:44:31 AM
Quote from: apl68 on October 22, 2019, 08:00:59 AM
In the rural area where I live I do see a certain skepticism about the value of a traditional college degree.  I don't think it's fair to call it deliberate anti-intellectualism, or to say that people have been buying into propaganda about how higher education is now The Enemy.  It's more a sense that the drive of a few years back to have "everybody" go to college oversold the benefits.  ANY kind of higher education, whether it's four-year college at the cheapest local state school, two-year college, or vo-tech costs fancy money to those who aren't well off and can't land serious scholarships. 

I think that, for many of these students, not getting a four-year college degree is the right choice. They don't want to move too far from where they grew up, so that means they're looking at the jobs they can get that would allow them to stay where they are. There probably aren't many jobs that require a four-year college degree. They can get their foot in the door at a construction company or answering the phone at the vet office straight out of high school. Compare that with moving away from home, spending $200,000 on five years of college, and then moving back to work for the construction company. This is the perception that's guiding their decisions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on October 23, 2019, 10:23:39 AM
Quote from: archaeo42 on October 22, 2019, 10:55:32 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 22, 2019, 08:46:10 AM
Quote from: apl68 on October 22, 2019, 08:00:59 AM


I suspect it's more a matter of demographic decline than declining commitment to higher education.  Arkansas hasn't gutted higher education funding and other public services in recent years, as so many other states have.  As for local circumstances, young people in recent years have been migrating toward the northwestern corner of the state, where nearly all the recent economic growth has been. 

In the rural area where I live I do see a certain skepticism about the value of a traditional college degree.  I don't think it's fair to call it deliberate anti-intellectualism, or to say that people have been buying into propaganda about how higher education is now The Enemy.  It's more a sense that the drive of a few years back to have "everybody" go to college oversold the benefits.  ANY kind of higher education, whether it's four-year college at the cheapest local state school, two-year college, or vo-tech costs fancy money to those who aren't well off and can't land serious scholarships. 


From the Wikipedia page for Hampshire College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampshire_College) from a few posts ago:
Quote

"The college is widely known for its alternative curriculum, socially liberal politics, focus on portfolios rather than distribution requirements, and its reliance on narrative evaluations instead of grades and GPAs.
.
.
.
On August 23, 2012, the school announced the establishment of a scholarship fund dedicated to helping undocumented students get degrees. It would give more than $25,000 each year to help an undocumented student pay for the $43,000-plus tuition."


So 4 years and something like $170k for tuition alone to get a non-specified degree with no grade records? Gee, why would anyone question the value of that????

I know someone who graduated from here. What attracted him to the school was small classes, dedicated faculty, and the ability to explore a topic of interest in depth in the last 2 years for a senior thesis. He found that the alternative setup worked for him, although some students in his cohort did struggle with it - especially when it came to managing their time and resources related to their senior thesis. I knew him as a grad student and he's now in a TT position. The type of program works for someone who is motivated and self-directed. It's certainly not for everyone.

Hampshire seems to either attract (or generate) a very high number of students who go on to graduate school and/or become leaders and entrepreneurs.

"Sixty-five percent of its alumni have at least one graduate degree and a quarter have founded their own business or organization. It is ranked #39 among U.S. colleges and universities by the percentage of graduates who go on to earn a doctorate degree according to National Science Foundation data."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 23, 2019, 10:31:21 AM
Quote from: Aster on October 23, 2019, 10:23:39 AM
Quote from: archaeo42 on October 22, 2019, 10:55:32 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 22, 2019, 08:46:10 AM
So 4 years and something like $170k for tuition alone to get a non-specified degree with no grade records? Gee, why would anyone question the value of that????

I know someone who graduated from here. What attracted him to the school was small classes, dedicated faculty, and the ability to explore a topic of interest in depth in the last 2 years for a senior thesis. He found that the alternative setup worked for him, although some students in his cohort did struggle with it - especially when it came to managing their time and resources related to their senior thesis. I knew him as a grad student and he's now in a TT position. The type of program works for someone who is motivated and self-directed. It's certainly not for everyone.

Hampshire seems to either attract (or generate) a very high number of students who go on to graduate school and/or become leaders and entrepreneurs.

"Sixty-five percent of its alumni have at least one graduate degree and a quarter have founded their own business or organization. It is ranked #39 among U.S. colleges and universities by the percentage of graduates who go on to earn a doctorate degree according to National Science Foundation data."


No big surprise; it's aimed at a very elite audience, and so most of the people who go there will be well-connected, probably from the day they're born. It doesn't have to have much to do with the education itself.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: nonntt on October 25, 2019, 07:29:16 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on October 21, 2019, 05:00:41 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on October 20, 2019, 04:57:23 PM
Quote from: Anselm on October 20, 2019, 09:11:46 AM
Quote from: nonntt on October 18, 2019, 12:14:28 PM
Quote from: spork on September 29, 2019, 07:49:29 AM
University of North Dakota -- "My University Is Dying":

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190925-my-university-is-dying?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2EmgwlkeISLqFEXU6hHBR5Xg-oUISdXGi9vqV1vTblBhhP3d0JvbzRaUFdpT19uVkhZOVlKTEItQjIyRFcwUFZkak5MelVKa3YwNHdoZw (https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20190925-my-university-is-dying?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2EmgwlkeISLqFEXU6hHBR5Xg-oUISdXGi9vqV1vTblBhhP3d0JvbzRaUFdpT19uVkhZOVlKTEItQjIyRFcwUFZkak5MelVKa3YwNHdoZw)

This is a Twitter link to the Chronicle Review. Not paywalled for now.

"No one from my college, which is the largest at UND, a flagship state school, went up for tenure last year, because there was no one left who was eligible to apply."

I've talked to insiders at Montana and North Dakota. Montana lost enrollment due to scandal and bad press, and the students went to MSU instead, as one poster already mentioned. (I once asked a colleague at MSU what the secret to their success was, as they had raised enrollments 50% in their humanities program. They gushed about the dedicated teaching in their department. Later I discovered that MSU's overall enrollment had risen by 50% thanks to the woes of the U of M, solving that mystery.)

As for UND, the article gives a very accurate description of what things have been like there for the last 5-6 years. Lots of bread and butter programs cut down to the bone and then some, with severe impacts on program quality that administrators refuse to see. Just recently things have improved a tick, though, since they pawned off their hapless president on the U of Colorado, and there was even a pay bump for the first time since the early 2010's.

How can North Dakota be hurting for money with the big shale oil boom?

If they aren't taxing it, then the only people benefitting are the employees and the companies' management and investors doing the booming.

Even if the big shale oil boom goes into a general fund, like New Mexico, smart people know that one holds back funds for the rainy day that will be coming instead of spending it all now on temporary things or, worse, committing to the same level of funding for future years that will definitely include rainy days.

"Lots of bread and butter programs cut down to the bone and then some, with severe impacts on program quality that administrators refuse to see. "  Is this a case of some faculty living in the past because they know the importance of their own field, but they don't have a big enough picture to realize how the university has to change because the world has changed?  Reducing, say, the English department where few students are studying so that the CS or other department with booming student enrollment can hire faculty is different from the university as a whole dying. 

Few places have strong Latin and Greek departments any more because they are no longer required for all students.  Many of the current general education requirements in research institutions are likely to be replaced by different entrance standards (e.g., already met the checkbox requirements through AP, dual enrollment, dual credit) or changing to more integrated experiences because the evidence for standalone one-off courses is pretty weak in terms of ensuring that students acquire the skills they need like communication.

To answer some questions:

1. I give credit to the MSU faculty for maintaining enrollments in their program at the same rate as overall enrollment. That certainly doesn't happen by itself. But there's no reason to credit them for more than that.

2. The North Dakota university system ended up hurting for money because
a. oil money went to fund a big tax cut, and
b. there was a downturn in oil money, but the state government was unwilling to draw on the rainy day fund, and
c. the answer to every budget question for 5 years was "cut education funding."

3. Polly, you must be living on another planet if you think a budget cut of $60 million only means the English department shrinks by a few lines. There are  unhappy faculty across the university, with professional programs voting no confidence in the provost, for example. Faculty across the board recognize that there used to be funding for aspects of basic instruction, educational activities and professional development opportunities, and now there are not, and the result is weaker education for students and the flight of good faculty members and administrators. Double-digit budget cuts every few years for half a decade don't just mean offering one less section of Renaissance Poetry. It actually does look pretty damn similar to the university as a whole dying. It means there are careers that students can no longer prepare for without going out of state because those classes are no longer offered anywhere in the system. Things have turned around a bit recently, but that has just about nothing to do with the English or Classics departments.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on October 26, 2019, 04:57:17 AM
Quote from: nonntt on October 25, 2019, 07:29:16 PM
3. Polly, you must be living on another planet if you think a budget cut of $60 million only means the English department shrinks by a few lines. There are  unhappy faculty across the university, with professional programs voting no confidence in the provost, for example. Faculty across the board recognize that there used to be funding for aspects of basic instruction, educational activities and professional development opportunities, and now there are not, and the result is weaker education for students and the flight of good faculty members and administrators. Double-digit budget cuts every few years for half a decade don't just mean offering one less section of Renaissance Poetry. It actually does look pretty damn similar to the university as a whole dying. It means there are careers that students can no longer prepare for without going out of state because those classes are no longer offered anywhere in the system. Things have turned around a bit recently, but that has just about nothing to do with the English or Classics departments.

Fair enough. 

Where's that story and who knows about it?  The story linked upthread read very much like the standard complaints of the university shifting from being humanities heavy to something else.  If the university is actually dying, then someone needs better press than the easily dismissed standard pitch by a humanities faculty member.

One way that the general public and even legislators can ignore the higher education narratives is the poor communication regarding the direness of the situation this time after decades of just whining that life isn't the way they wanted it to be.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 28, 2019, 08:42:14 AM
Henderson State University plans to merge with the Arkansas State University System:

Quote
By Region 8 Newsdesk | October 24, 2019 at 4:57 PM CDT - Updated October 24 at 5:07 PM

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (KAIT) - A merger between the Arkansas State University System and Henderson State University will provide a key opportunity for both universities to grow into the future, officials from both universities said Thursday.

According to a media release from the A-State System, the Henderson State University Board of Trustees voted Thursday to join the A-State System and continue with developing a merger agreement.

Officials said the merger is subject to approval by the Arkansas State University Board of Trustees, the state Higher Learning Commission and the state legislature.

However, A-State System President Chuck Welch said officials are hopeful that the transition can be finalized no later than Jan. 1, 2021. Earlier this year, the Henderson board signed a memorandum of understanding to allow A-State provide certain operational support services to Henderson.

The Henderson board also voted to keep its name and its mascot - the Reddies - if they become part of the A-State System and agreed to seek outside counsel to finalize the merger agreement, the media release noted.

https://www.kait8.com/2019/10/24/henderson-state-board-votes-join-a-state-system/

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Anselm on October 28, 2019, 03:05:27 PM
A merger between the Arkansas State University System and Henderson State University will provide a key opportunity for both universities to grow into the future, officials from both universities said Thursday.

This reads like something out of Bloomberg or the WSJ. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 29, 2019, 02:44:41 AM
Cincinnati Christian University will close at the end of the semester: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/10/28/cincinnati-university-to-shutter-mid-year.html (https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/10/28/cincinnati-university-to-shutter-mid-year.html).

University of Saint Francis (IN) eliminates MFA; majors in history, philosophy, and math; entire political science program; etc.: https://image.s6.sfmc-content.com/lib/fe8f1272736d017c76/m/4/a63155f8-fadb-49a7-b4db-6c9031de81ba.pdf (https://image.s6.sfmc-content.com/lib/fe8f1272736d017c76/m/4/a63155f8-fadb-49a7-b4db-6c9031de81ba.pdf).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 29, 2019, 07:01:14 AM
Quote from: spork on October 29, 2019, 02:44:41 AM

University of Saint Francis (IN) eliminates MFA; majors in history, philosophy, and math; entire political science program; etc.:

Eliminating 15 majors will affect only 30 students. Were those majors already dead?
They are laying off 11 professors, though.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 29, 2019, 07:54:05 AM
Quote from: spork on October 29, 2019, 02:44:41 AM
Cincinnati Christian University will close at the end of the semester: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/10/28/cincinnati-university-to-shutter-mid-year.html (https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/10/28/cincinnati-university-to-shutter-mid-year.html).

Falling enrollment, falling student retention, and debt.  It sounds like an all-too-familiar story.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 29, 2019, 09:57:51 AM
Quote from: apl68 on October 29, 2019, 07:54:05 AM
Quote from: spork on October 29, 2019, 02:44:41 AM
Cincinnati Christian University will close at the end of the semester: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/10/28/cincinnati-university-to-shutter-mid-year.html (https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/10/28/cincinnati-university-to-shutter-mid-year.html).

Falling enrollment, falling student retention, and debt.  It sounds like an all-too-familiar story.

From CHE (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Cincinnati-Christian-U-Will/247429?cid=wsinglestory_hp_1):
With little planning, the university started a football program, laid off administrative staff and faculty members to cut costs, and revised its academic mission. But its retention and graduation rates suffered.

So the more-football-fewer-classes plan didn't work at all. Forumites have been skeptical of this approach.

Putting someone in charge who is trying to pull the assets out of the instituion is also unhelpful.
"President Ronald E. Heineman is a former board member who was also appointed chief restructuring officer by the bank. That situation led Heineman to put the interests of the bank that extended credit to Cincinnati Christian above the interests of the institution itself. He also owes more than a million dollars in unpaid state taxes.

The university has now spent the entirety of its $4-million endowment.  The school owed nearly $6 million to Central Bank and Trust, which has claim to all of the university's assets"
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on October 29, 2019, 02:17:05 PM
Quote from: Hibush on October 29, 2019, 09:57:51 AM
So the more-football-fewer-classes plan didn't work at all. Forumites have been skeptical of this approach.

If you want to call NAIA football.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on October 31, 2019, 05:06:47 AM
Morehouse College has decided to not implement the announced plan for furloughs and reducing contributions to the 403(b) plan (https://www.ajc.com/news/local-education/just-morehouse-drops-furloughs-stop-planned-faculty-walkout/pavlOs7Q5Ljj1OwfS41qSO/)

Quote
Morehouse announced the cuts last month to fill a $5 million budget gap owed by 500 current students in unpaid tuition and fees.
...
[The president of Morehouse] warned the college remains "significantly challenged" to meet its monthly operating costs of about $5 million a month.

Thus, the college is missing an entire month of operating costs at the start of the year.  That seems like a problem, especially with recent articles like:

https://theundefeated.com/features/trump-signs-executive-order-on-hbcus/ (but not enough follow-through)

https://theundefeated.com/features/state-of-hbcus-address-calls-for-more-federal-funding-accreditation-oversight/ (accreditors are harsher on HCBUs in some cases)

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/09/20/alexander-blocks-hbcu-funding-bill-proposes-broader-package-legislation (the current funding bill is not even getting the suggested band-aid)

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on November 01, 2019, 07:08:12 AM
An update on Linfield College's restructuring initiative, which now plans to offer early retirement and buyouts to faculty members:

QuoteBy the time [new president] Davis arrived, Linfield had already taken a number of cost-cutting measures. In a February 2019 message to the Linfield community, Davis shared a summary of cuts the board of trustees had already approved over the last four years: 

    Elimination of administration and staff positions
    Hiring freezes of administration, staff and faculty positions
    No general salary increases for employees
    Reduction in retirement benefits
    Operating budget cuts
    Reduction in capital spending (monies used to maintain and/or upgrade facilities)
    Use of one-time funds; e.g. sales of property
    Tuition increases
    Offering early retirement to qualified employees

"A part of the College's restructuring and academic prioritization process will be to eliminate some faculty positions that were consistent in a time when we had more than 1600 students, but are not sustainable in our present circumstances (1240 students)," wrote Davis last February. "

Full story:  https://www.opb.org/news/article/linfield-college-budget-enrollment-trends/  (https://www.opb.org/news/article/linfield-college-budget-enrollment-trends/)

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 06, 2019, 08:13:03 PM
Marlboro is now being absorbed by Emerson after talks with Bridgeport fell through.

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/11/06/emerson-plans-absorb-marlboro
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 07, 2019, 02:45:25 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 06, 2019, 08:13:03 PM
Marlboro is now being absorbed by Emerson after talks with Bridgeport fell through.

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/11/06/emerson-plans-absorb-marlboro

More details: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/11/07/marlboro-will-become-part-emerson-college (http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/11/07/marlboro-will-become-part-emerson-college).

I wonder how many of the former Marlboro faculty are going to relocate. Only a couple look to be at or near retirement age.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: rth253 on November 07, 2019, 04:44:16 PM
St. Cloud State is laying off 4 tenured faculty and 4 tenured librarians. Enrollment has dropped about 20%-25% in the past 10 years. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/09/19/tenured-faculty-laid-st-cloud-state
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Caracal on November 08, 2019, 06:07:30 AM
Quote from: spork on November 07, 2019, 02:45:25 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 06, 2019, 08:13:03 PM
Marlboro is now being absorbed by Emerson after talks with Bridgeport fell through.

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/11/06/emerson-plans-absorb-marlboro

More details: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/11/07/marlboro-will-become-part-emerson-college (http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/11/07/marlboro-will-become-part-emerson-college).

I wonder how many of the former Marlboro faculty are going to relocate. Only a couple look to be at or near retirement age.

I'd assume most? But maybe I'm wrong. The cost of living in Boston is brutal, but I wonder if a lot of faculty already have a partner living or working in the Boston area and some might be living there already.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 08, 2019, 12:54:09 PM
Quote from: Caracal on November 08, 2019, 06:07:30 AM
Quote from: spork on November 07, 2019, 02:45:25 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 06, 2019, 08:13:03 PM
Marlboro is now being absorbed by Emerson after talks with Bridgeport fell through.

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/11/06/emerson-plans-absorb-marlboro

More details: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/11/07/marlboro-will-become-part-emerson-college (http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/11/07/marlboro-will-become-part-emerson-college).

I wonder how many of the former Marlboro faculty are going to relocate. Only a couple look to be at or near retirement age.

I'd assume most? But maybe I'm wrong. The cost of living in Boston is brutal, but I wonder if a lot of faculty already have a partner living or working in the Boston area and some might be living there already.

Marlboro had 24 faculty (17 tenured and 7 untenured) who are being offered untenured, but tenure-track positions. Marlboro is effectively giving Emerson $40 million in endowment funds to accept those faculty into tenurable faculty positions. That is not quite enough endowment to support 24 faculty, but the tuition from ~100 potential transfer students might help.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on November 09, 2019, 05:26:20 AM
This WSJ article from last Thursday (Nov 7) highlight the struggle of Occidental College, a SLAC based in a suburb of LA,  of trying to pursue a 'high road' admission strategy of recruiting low-income, first generation minority students by giving them generous scholarships and tuition discount, while eschewing the temptation of playing 'the admission game' of recruiting wealthy HS kids with subpar SAT scores and credentials who would also provide substantial donation to the college, as promoted by now indicted private college adviser Rick Singer.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-admissions-adviser-rick-singer-called-this-school-said-no-thanks-11573036202  (https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-admissions-adviser-rick-singer-called-this-school-said-no-thanks-11573036202)

Occidental managed to significantly diversify its student's body, but it came at a cost of an unstable financial stability and lower investment in services and fancy amenities for its students:

QuoteToday, Occidental is 49% nonwhite and attracts fewer wealthy students than the vast majority of its peers. It also boasts one of the highest percentage of poor and working-class students receiving Pell Grants and has one of the highest rates of economic mobility of its peers, according to Harvard economist Raj Chetty and Occidental.

But financial stress has followed. In 1995 Occidental's endowment ranked 120th in the nation. By last year it was 208th. The school has lost ground partly because of its commitment to enroll poor and working-class students who need grants. Occidental's need-blind enrollment program climbed from 11% of the budget in the mid-1980s to 24% by 1993...

The school eventually had to dip into its endowment to pay the bills. And today, while it maintains a strong reputation and a middling $434 million endowment, it still faces underlying fiscal issues.

In September, Moody's Investors Service revised the outlook on Occidental's $84 million in debt, which has a solid Aa3 rating, to negative from stable, citing the school's "commitment to affordability" and lagging fundraising.

These headwinds mean dormitories are cramped and nearly half are without air conditioning. The steel lawn-irrigation system installed in the 1930s is thoroughly rusted out. The campus is pretty and tranquil, but amenities pale when compared with those offered elsewhere: lazy rivers, palatial fitness centers, climbing gyms, high-tech libraries and swanky apartment-style dorms...

Unlike other schools, it doesn't heavily prioritize athletes or legacies in admissions.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on November 09, 2019, 10:10:04 AM
So it's being punished for doing everything (except fundraising) right.

Hhmmm...

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 13, 2019, 12:41:20 PM
"Iowa College for the Blind" will sell for $1; lessons for higher ed: https://www.chronicle.com/article/A-College-Made-Famous-by-the/247526 (https://www.chronicle.com/article/A-College-Made-Famous-by-the/247526).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 13, 2019, 06:35:35 PM
 Free for now from Twitter:
https://www.chronicle.com/article/A-College-Made-Famous-by-the/247526?key=j_DIeWIUtJsVs9ToXQRavvh83tVPGYNCaUUIxDC9NDVzp1-CXwlPSLajLEhQZ1jtdVVTYnF1RGVXTFNNRDlaQkgxSTdHRjFyek5DWk95MnF2VVZ3VFp4S0c0RQ
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 14, 2019, 06:07:37 AM
Quote from: spork on November 13, 2019, 12:41:20 PM
"Iowa College for the Blind" will sell for $1; lessons for higher ed: https://www.chronicle.com/article/A-College-Made-Famous-by-the/247526 (https://www.chronicle.com/article/A-College-Made-Famous-by-the/247526).

This is just the campus. The school has been closed for years and the buildings mostly vacant.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 14, 2019, 08:30:53 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 13, 2019, 06:35:35 PM
Free for now from Twitter:
https://www.chronicle.com/article/A-College-Made-Famous-by-the/247526?key=j_DIeWIUtJsVs9ToXQRavvh83tVPGYNCaUUIxDC9NDVzp1-CXwlPSLajLEhQZ1jtdVVTYnF1RGVXTFNNRDlaQkgxSTdHRjFyek5DWk95MnF2VVZ3VFp4S0c0RQ

Interesting article.

Blind students weren't the only ones who had to leave home and go to a college-like setting to get a solid high school education.  As recently as the 1920s one of my grandfathers had to pay tuition and go to boarding school to get the high school education that wasn't available in his rural area.  He was not by any means from a locally affluent family, but they felt the financial sacrifice was worth it.  My other grandfather grew up in a rural area in the same state, but they had high school by the time he was old enough to attend.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 14, 2019, 10:17:56 AM
Quote from: apl68 on November 14, 2019, 08:30:53 AM

Blind students weren't the only ones who had to leave home and go to a college-like setting to get a solid high school education.  As recently as the 1920s one of my grandfathers had to pay tuition and go to boarding school to get the high school education that wasn't available in his rural area.  He was not by any means from a locally affluent family, but they felt the financial sacrifice was worth it.  My other grandfather grew up in a rural area in the same state, but they had high school by the time he was old enough to attend.

One hundred years ago, only about 10% of 14-17 year olds were in school. It is not surprising that it would be unavailable to many.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 14, 2019, 06:19:35 PM
 Palomar College at 'high risk' of insolvency, state agency finds (https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/communities/north-county/san-marcos/story/2019-11-12/sd-no-palomar-board)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: nonntt on November 15, 2019, 12:06:03 PM
If you're in a position to do something about market failure, why don't you?

As NTT and adjunct faculty, I was not exactly overwhelmed with businesses telling me how much they would love to pay me 6 figures for my skills. I didn't have time to survey all of the 3-6 million available jobs out there, but my experience was something like this:

Jobs I was perfectly qualified for: No, we don't want you.
Alt-ac jobs that I had several importantly qualifications for: Thanks for applying, but we found someone who was a perfect fit.
Other jobs: You don't have 5+ years experience in this niche, so why are you wasting our time?

And so my conclusion, which is probably what a lot of adjuncts are also thinking, is that non-academic jobs won't actually give an application a second glance. This conclusion may well be false, but it's the conclusion that best seems to fit the facts at our disposal.

Now, if you are in fact desperate to hire someone with the skills and experience of a CUNY adjunct, why not invest a little in recruitment? Pay someone on the ground to put up a few flyers? Send out some targeted mails? Hit them up on LinkedIn? If you put the key information - that there's someone who wants to hire them! - in the hands of the people who most need it, maybe something of benefit to all parties will happen.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 15, 2019, 04:35:58 PM
Are you perhaps on the wrong thread?  I'm not at all desperate to hire people who have utterly failed in key areas like showing any evidence of knowing what skills are scarce and acquiring such skills.

We need people with those skills, not those waiting for a personally engraved invitation for skills that are not rare.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 15, 2019, 06:46:03 PM
Bond ratings are slipping for merely elite institutions

Quote
Elites include institutions like Northwestern and Carnegie Mellon University; super-elites are institutions like Harvard and Stanford. Cantwell and Taylor found that super-elites spend about $90,000 per year per student. Elites spend about $50,000 per year per student.
Reference: https://www.chronicle.com/article/How-Chasing-Prestige-Is/247545?key=j_DIeWIUtJsVs9ToXQRavkyiGKCdrSd-fFNBjUfP_Q1MajB6yk2Gua8YVpBVOUIzVTB1V0dlb2RxTlhCSGxhaVdEQ3lfaVFlUm1nOWZid25ialR2X25zS0M2dw
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 15, 2019, 07:30:36 PM
Tuition likely to hit six figures soon: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/11/some-colleges-could-soon-cost-100000-year/601648/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 16, 2019, 01:57:34 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 15, 2019, 06:46:03 PM

Elites include institutions like Northwestern and Carnegie Mellon University; super-elites are institutions like Harvard and Stanford. Cantwell and Taylor found that super-elites spend about $90,000 per year per student. Elites spend about $50,000 per year per student.

This datum explains clearly why Oxy could not provide an elite $50,000 education with the new
Quote from: picard on November 09, 2019, 05:26:20 AM
admission strategy of recruiting low-income, first generation minority students by giving them generous scholarships and tuition discount.
Their net tuition, not surprisingly, came in below the very challenging $50,000.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 16, 2019, 07:28:21 PM
https://www.workdayminnesota.org/wage-theft-at-minnesota-state-campuses-could-lead-to-over-2-million-in-claims/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on November 16, 2019, 09:10:33 PM
An article which profiles four SLACs: St Johns (MD), Hiram (OH), Hampshire, and Mills College and their strategies to reinvent themselves amid the challenging enrollment and financial pictures affecting many small liberal arts colleges nowadays"

https://www.educationdive.com/news/how-4-small-liberal-arts-colleges-are-changing-with-the-times/566424  (https://www.educationdive.com/news/how-4-small-liberal-arts-colleges-are-changing-with-the-times/566424)

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 17, 2019, 02:57:05 AM
Quote from: picard on November 16, 2019, 09:10:33 PM
An article which profiles four SLACs: St Johns (MD), Hiram (OH), Hampshire, and Mills College and their strategies to reinvent themselves amid the challenging enrollment and financial pictures affecting many small liberal arts colleges nowadays"

https://www.educationdive.com/news/how-4-small-liberal-arts-colleges-are-changing-with-the-times/566424  (https://www.educationdive.com/news/how-4-small-liberal-arts-colleges-are-changing-with-the-times/566424)

According to its Form 990s, Mills College had a deficit of $8.9 million for FY 2018, after only $700,000 in positive net revenue for FY 2017. FTE undergraduate enrollment was still falling as of 2018. I doubt that its plan for reinvention is going to succeed. I think the most likely outcome is that it gets acquired by UC Berkeley.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 17, 2019, 05:35:14 AM
Quote from: spork on November 17, 2019, 02:57:05 AM
Quote from: picard on November 16, 2019, 09:10:33 PM
An article which profiles four SLACs: St Johns (MD), Hiram (OH), Hampshire, and Mills College and their strategies to reinvent themselves amid the challenging enrollment and financial pictures affecting many small liberal arts colleges nowadays"

https://www.educationdive.com/news/how-4-small-liberal-arts-colleges-are-changing-with-the-times/566424  (https://www.educationdive.com/news/how-4-small-liberal-arts-colleges-are-changing-with-the-times/566424)

According to its Form 990s, Mills College had a deficit of $8.9 million for FY 2018, after only $700,000 in positive net revenue for FY 2017. FTE undergraduate enrollment was still falling as of 2018. I doubt that its plan for reinvention is going to succeed. I think the most likely outcome is that it gets acquired by UC Berkeley.

Are you suggesting that Cal would buy the campus, a la Iowa College for the Blind (sold for $1), or do a profitable acquisition of the remnant going operation a la Marlboro (turning over the property and endowment in return for hiring the faculty)?

The Mills campus is tremendously valuable. While the UCB campus is less than miles away, it is not exactly easy to move between them given the traffic and lack of parking and effective public transit. With all the pressures for residential and business facilities in that part of the Bay Area, I bet there are many potential buyers of the property.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 17, 2019, 06:50:48 AM
Quote from: picard on November 16, 2019, 09:10:33 PM
An article which profiles four SLACs: St Johns (MD), Hiram (OH), Hampshire, and Mills College and their strategies to reinvent themselves amid the challenging enrollment and financial pictures affecting many small liberal arts colleges nowadays"

https://www.educationdive.com/news/how-4-small-liberal-arts-colleges-are-changing-with-the-times/566424  (https://www.educationdive.com/news/how-4-small-liberal-arts-colleges-are-changing-with-the-times/566424)

Three of these things belong together
Three of these things are kinda the same
But one of these things is not like the other
Now it's time to play our game


St. Johns has a good shot at succeeding.  St. Johns has a steady enrollment and was not heavily reliant on tuition (only 31% and that's going down).  They have had a clearly defined, unique enough mission and a solid body of alumni/friends/well wishers that St. Johns likely can raise the money to offset tuition increases.  St. Johns was in a not-good financial situation, but the linked article and what I know as a regular reader of Inside Higher Ed, Chronicle of Higher Education, and relevant regional newspapers support the idea that St. Johns made purposeful long-term changes to protect their mission instead of a series of annual trade-offs that each individually made sense to weather one year, but collectively add up to a decade or more of neglect, disinvestment, and undermining the mission.

In contrast, while Hampshire has a unique mission, it's not clear that enough people (students, alumni, friends, well wishers) want that mission at either the high cost or the high price.  https://www.hampshire.edu/sites/default/files/businessoffice/HampshireFiscalReality1.31.2019updated.pdf pages 31 and 32 indicate projected $48M in operating budget for projected 1100 students ($44k/student for those following along with the elite/superelite discussion).  Hampshire's current enrollment is 750 students, which is about half of what it had just 10 years ago.  Also alarming is Hampshire only has a $52M endowment that is 97% restricted (https://www.hampshire.edu/discover-hampshire/hampshire-at-a-glance). For comparison, Grinnell has a billion dollar endowment that is mostly unrestricted and they are discussing current challenges in the changing landscape (https://www.grinnell.edu/sites/default/files/documents/grinmagfall11.choosing.pdf).


One very hard part of fundraising for small schools is a lack of an alumni army and Hampshire has that problem as well with a mere 14k alumni since 1970 (https://www.hampshire.edu/discover-hampshire/hampshire-at-a-glance).  For perspective, Grinnell College in FY18 raised $17M ($26M total philanthropic commitments) from 10k individuals. (https://alumni.grinnell.edu/news/fy-2018-success)

108 full-time faculty (https://www.hampshire.edu/discover-hampshire/hampshire-at-a-glance) for a student body under 750 screams "expensive and way, way overfacultied".  For perspective, Super Dinky had about 30 full-time faculty, about 10 professional fellows, and about 5 adjuncts every term for 600 students.  Since I've been comparing to Grinnell, I'll mention that Grinnell has 200 full-time faculty and 30 part-time faculty (https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/grinnell-college/academic-life/faculty-composition/) for 1800 students.

Even with all those faculty members at Hampshire, the student outcomes aren't all that good.  The 67% six-year graduation rate is about national average (i.e., not good for an expensive private school) and 80% first-to-second year retention rate when nearly everyone starts as a first-year student. (https://www.hampshire.edu/discover-hampshire/hampshire-at-a-glance)  The inputs are harder to judge because this is a specialty college, but a greater than 60% acceptance rate seems really high.  For perspective, Grinnell has an 87% graduation rate with a 95% first-to-second year retention rate (https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/school/?153384-Grinnell-College) and a 30% acceptance rate. (https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/iowa/grinnell-college/admission/)

Personal income isn't everything, and yet  Hampshire's average of $35k 10 years after graduation makes me wonder how many people make a purposeful trade-off for creativity/satisfaction/flexibility and how many of the 60% of people with an average of $25k in student loans (https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/school/?166018-Hampshire-College) would make the same choice a second time.  Again, for perspective, Grinnell graduates have an average salary of $49k for the 40% of people who took out an average of $16k in loans. (https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/school/?153384-Grinnell-College)

Hampshire's curriculum plan to have year-long projects/discussions is interesting, but it's not clear to me that Hampshire, despite having many faculty for a small school, has a critical mass of faculty with the appropriate expertise to jump right on the current buzzwords along with the facilities to do the kind of project-based learning or undergraduate research that appeals to people wanting the buzzwords. 

Were I advising someone who is really interested in, say, artificial intelligence, I can think of several dozen institutions that have well-established programs for the same out-of-pocket cost or less.  On Hampshire's website, I see a couple computer science faculty listed in the category of cognitive science including one VAP in games.  Programs in AI, natural language processing, or game design along with a commitment to project-based learning from day one of freshman year are not rare any more.  This very much looks like coming very late to the bus that already left.

I've never even heard of Hiram, which is a bad sign if they are attempting to appeal to a national audience or even just the Midwest audience.  One thing that stands out to me in their article is having a $30M budget for 1200 students when Super Dinky had $12M for 600 students.  A second thing that jumps out is starting a new computer science program when so many good ones already exist and faculty are hard to come by on the national scene. After much poking around on the website, I found two faculty members listed as being in computer science along with one emerita, while chemistry has 7 entries that look like faculty (at least at emeritus level).  Potentially a whopping 3 people for two programs (traditional CS and applied CS) that will have trouble getting adjuncts seems very much like wishing instead of planning. 

Visiting Hiram's website makes me roll my eyes; claiming one is different while using the same words and appeal as dozens of others making the same claim is not convincing.  The user experience is also not great since I had to work pretty hard to find a faculty list or any other information.  That screams to me "underresourced and hoping for the best".  As part of my travels through the website, I learned Hiram has a 3+2 engineering program.  Again, I have to wonder why someone who does a little research on the options in the world would do that in today's environment.  People who really want to be engineers should go straight to Case Western Reserve/Wash U (or comparable school) instead of starting at the resource-strapped place and then extending the time to degree.  People who are place-bound may wish to carefully consider how having an engineering degree will work if they cannot move.  If people just want that small school experience, then go to an engineering school with the small classes and the resources.


I've reviewed Mills College at length in the recent past so I'm going to do something else with my next hour instead of rehashing the details of a women's-only college in a huge metropolitan area with many excellent education opportunities for a variety of price ranges, many of which are very welcoming to the social justice mission.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: onthefringe on November 17, 2019, 08:40:25 AM
polly makes some interesting points, but I think it's kind of disingenuous to use Grinnell for "perspective " considering they are easily the best funded liberal arts college in the Midwest, and usually in the top 10 or so in the nation (depending in your definition of liberal arts college).

You could make all the same points using a more modestly funded Midwest school for perspective, and I would argue that the perspective woukd be more relevant.

For example, Kenyon, Macalaster, Denison are all kind of bog-standard SLACs, with no clear mission the separates them from other SLACs. Each of them has their own financial concerns (ie, Kenyon's endowment is notoriously low in relation to comparable schools), but none of them are in any danger of closing any time soon, and all would provide a better set of numbers to provide perspective for a small college that may need to continue to pay attention in order to stay relevant, but doesn't have wolves at the door right this instant.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: hazelshade on November 17, 2019, 11:32:17 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on November 17, 2019, 08:40:25 AM
polly makes some interesting points, but I think it's kind of disingenuous to use Grinnell for "perspective " considering they are easily the best funded liberal arts college in the Midwest, and usually in the top 10 or so in the nation (depending in your definition of liberal arts college).

You could make all the same points using a more modestly funded Midwest school for perspective, and I would argue that the perspective woukd be more relevant.

For example, Kenyon, Macalaster, Denison are all kind of bog-standard SLACs, with no clear mission the separates them from other SLACs. Each of them has their own financial concerns (ie, Kenyon's endowment is notoriously low in relation to comparable schools), but none of them are in any danger of closing any time soon, and all would provide a better set of numbers to provide perspective for a small college that may need to continue to pay attention in order to stay relevant, but doesn't have wolves at the door right this instant.

Agreed--Grinnell is an outlier for a number of reasons (higher endowment--Polly actually understated by about half, I believe--unusually unrestricted endowment, lower net student revenue, fewer full-pay students, more modest philanthropic support) compared to the schools onthefringe mentions, which are more representative of other stable Midwestern LACs. Some of those outlier factors probably balance each other out, though.

One caveat is that I don't know if Kenyon is quite a "bog-standard LAC"--it graduates remarkably high numbers of students in humanistic fields, and its humanities enrollments have remained remarkably stable over the past 10 years (in sharp contrast to national trends and other LACs). I assume the Kenyon Review is a factor there, but I'm curious about how this is working (and whether it means they have a unique identity that students are responding to).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: onthefringe on November 17, 2019, 01:08:03 PM
Quote from: hazelshade on November 17, 2019, 11:32:17 AM
One caveat is that I don't know if Kenyon is quite a "bog-standard LAC"--it graduates remarkably high numbers of students in humanistic fields, and its humanities enrollments have remained remarkably stable over the past 10 years (in sharp contrast to national trends and other LACs). I assume the Kenyon Review is a factor there, but I'm curious about how this is working (and whether it means they have a unique identity that students are responding to).

I have no idea how entrenched that identity is. I will say that the fringelet has been to information sessions and tours at Kenyon, and they did not overemphasize a focus in the humanities (in contrast to Reed which is, admittedly, and outlier LAC in a variety of ways).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: hazelshade on November 17, 2019, 01:10:50 PM
Quote from: hazelshade on November 17, 2019, 11:32:17 AM
One caveat is that I don't know if Kenyon is quite a "bog-standard LAC"--it graduates remarkably high numbers of students in humanistic fields, and its humanities enrollments have remained remarkably stable over the past 10 years (in sharp contrast to national trends and other LACs). I assume the Kenyon Review is a factor there, but I'm curious about how this is working (and whether it means they have a unique identity that students are responding to).

Whoops, I meant its percentage of humanities grads has remained stable--I don't have direct info about enrollments, and the relationship between enrollments and majors can be surprisingly complex.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 17, 2019, 01:21:39 PM
Quote from: Hibush on November 17, 2019, 05:35:14 AM

[. . . ]

Are you suggesting that Cal would buy the campus

[. . . ]

I bet there are many potential buyers of the property.

If the property is to continue as some kind of facility for legitimate post-secondary education, then Cal is the obvious and probably only potential buyer. Why would any other non-profit college or university want to purchase it at market price? And I doubt whatever company that owns Patten University has the money or interest in getting the real estate.

Of course a condo developer could always make an attractive offer.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 17, 2019, 04:12:15 PM
The point of comparing with Grinnell is to really emphasize how far from elite Hampshire College is, despite needing elite-aspiring students to make a go of their unique mission.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 18, 2019, 04:22:36 AM
Quote from: spork on November 17, 2019, 01:21:39 PM
Quote from: Hibush on November 17, 2019, 05:35:14 AM

[. . . ]

Are you suggesting that Cal would buy the campus

[. . . ]

I bet there are many potential buyers of the property.

If the property is to continue as some kind of facility for legitimate post-secondary education, then Cal is the obvious and probably only potential buyer. Why would any other non-profit college or university want to purchase it at market price? And I doubt whatever company that owns Patten University has the money or interest in getting the real estate.

Of course a condo developer could always make an attractive offer.
With the housing demand in the immediate area, condo developer may be the highest bidder.

But Stanford just had their expansion permit denied so they are looking for somewhere to put their new enterprises (2 million square feet of academic space, >3000 housing units.) The Mills campus is 135 ac and already has some housing and academic space.

Despite being the area's largest landowner, the university has show a willingness to have non-contiguous centers. They just developed a 35-acre satellite campus in Redwood City. (Thirty five acres on the Peninsula is quite a bit. A <1/6 acre lot with a tear-down house (https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1181-Fairview-Ave-Redwood-City-CA-94061/15573927_zpid/) is over $1 million.)  Who knows?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 18, 2019, 04:51:43 AM
I think Mills will cease to exist in any event. For a Stanford or Berkeley, there is no sound reason to continue to operate it as a stand-alone entity (e.g., "Mills School of Urban Education") and Mills employees will lose their jobs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on November 18, 2019, 05:58:19 AM
The sudden enrollment decline at Beloit College and how it impacted the Wisconsin-based SLAC is the subject of this Chronicle of Higher Ed article (ungated from this Twitter link for now):

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Then-Enrollment-Fell-Off-a/247556?key=j_DIeWIUtJsVs9ToXQRavkodE0DZGgTXPyVR6NTBdS26okvuD0TOSeilYzaLfamNTnA4cVBCVDZ0akJqUmtSelV6dGYwR1YyUndQQlRHYkpuWmZ6cVk2eVFKTQ  (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Then-Enrollment-Fell-Off-a/247556?key=j_DIeWIUtJsVs9ToXQRavkodE0DZGgTXPyVR6NTBdS26okvuD0TOSeilYzaLfamNTnA4cVBCVDZ0akJqUmtSelV6dGYwR1YyUndQQlRHYkpuWmZ6cVk2eVFKTQ)


QuoteBut when the numbers fell into the 200s, the college also saw "a significant decline in net tuition revenue per student, so we got a double whammy."

"We were floored by this, as you might imagine," he says. Obviously, there would have to be budget cuts to match the decline in revenue: Some faculty and staff positions were cut, and salaries were reduced in a manner that protected anyone making less than $45,000 a year, with the biggest cuts assigned to those making the most. Bierman [the college's president] hopes that the reductions were all but undetectable to students, although Moody's Investors Service noticed and downgraded the college's debt, saying that "Beloit's student market remains highly pressured."

Bierman says the college now has a budget model "that allows us to be healthy — not quite as healthy as you might want to be, but healthy — at 310 students per year." And Beloit has used endowment money to pay off some of its loans, he says, because he doesn't want "a bank dictating to me what programs to cut."

How will it attract 310-student classes? Bierman says that Beloit, like many other liberal-arts colleges, has failed at describing what it does — to its own students and faculty members, as well as to off-campus audiences. "We have not done a sufficient job of explaining our value proposition. It's as simple as that," he says. Now the college needs to double down on demonstrating "the humanity of Beloit College" to prospective students.


QuoteThe president and others at Beloit know, of course, what's been happening at other colleges in the Midwest. In fact, Bierman is a good friend and former Carleton College colleague of Nathan D. Grawe, a Carleton economics professor who is the author of Demographics and the Demand for Higher Education. "We have been well in tune with a sophisticated view of the demographics," says Bierman, "way beyond, What's the aggregate number of high-school graduates?"

In his book, Grawe says there is a distinction between small liberal-arts colleges in the top 50 and the rest of the liberal-arts pack. "Within the Midwest, the experience at Carleton and Colorado College is not what the rest of us are experiencing," says Bierman. "Virtually everybody outside of maybe those two would say it's increasingly difficult to get a class that is close to or hits the goals that you've set."


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 18, 2019, 06:14:09 AM
Quote from: picard on November 18, 2019, 05:58:19 AM
The sudden enrollment decline at Beloit College and how it impacted the Wisconsin-based SLAC is the subject of this Chronicle of Higher Ed article (ungated from this Twitter link for now):

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Then-Enrollment-Fell-Off-a/247556?key=j_DIeWIUtJsVs9ToXQRavkodE0DZGgTXPyVR6NTBdS26okvuD0TOSeilYzaLfamNTnA4cVBCVDZ0akJqUmtSelV6dGYwR1YyUndQQlRHYkpuWmZ6cVk2eVFKTQ  (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Then-Enrollment-Fell-Off-a/247556?key=j_DIeWIUtJsVs9ToXQRavkodE0DZGgTXPyVR6NTBdS26okvuD0TOSeilYzaLfamNTnA4cVBCVDZ0akJqUmtSelV6dGYwR1YyUndQQlRHYkpuWmZ6cVk2eVFKTQ)


QuoteThe president and others at Beloit know, of course, what's been happening at other colleges in the Midwest. In fact, Bierman is a good friend and former Carleton College colleague of Nathan D. Grawe, a Carleton economics professor who is the author of Demographics and the Demand for Higher Education. "We have been well in tune with a sophisticated view of the demographics," says Bierman, "way beyond, What's the aggregate number of high-school graduates?"

A bit later in the article, Bierman says "3 percent of college students ever seriously consider a liberal-arts college. "Just imagine: What do the economics of the sector look like at 4 percent? We would have more than undone any of the demographic changes that are coming down the road."  He is noting that they are losing prospects to the regional U of Wisconsin campuses, which are bigger and cheaper.

The loud message here is that the crisis for private small LACs is not a crisis for higher education at large. The crisis is in a little sliver of higher education.

Bierman's main effort strikes me as reasonable: state the value proposition of LACs repeatedly to faculty, students, policy makers and prospects. That gets everyone on message, aligns expectations and lets those who find value in LACs find that value.

That same concept applies to the even tinier sliver if higher ed(<10 LACs) that is places designed for the brilliant misfit (Hampshire, St Johns...). They enroll so few students that demographics don't matter much; finding the prospects and delivering for them. Polly described earlier how St Johns is succeeding and Hampshire did not. Beloit's new VP for enrollment spent 20 years at one such place (Bard at Simon's Rock), so we'll see what she comes up with to deliver on the president's initiative.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on November 18, 2019, 06:42:33 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 18, 2019, 06:14:09 AM
Quote from: picard on November 18, 2019, 05:58:19 AM
The sudden enrollment decline at Beloit College and how it impacted the Wisconsin-based SLAC is the subject of this Chronicle of Higher Ed article (ungated from this Twitter link for now):

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Then-Enrollment-Fell-Off-a/247556?key=j_DIeWIUtJsVs9ToXQRavkodE0DZGgTXPyVR6NTBdS26okvuD0TOSeilYzaLfamNTnA4cVBCVDZ0akJqUmtSelV6dGYwR1YyUndQQlRHYkpuWmZ6cVk2eVFKTQ  (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Then-Enrollment-Fell-Off-a/247556?key=j_DIeWIUtJsVs9ToXQRavkodE0DZGgTXPyVR6NTBdS26okvuD0TOSeilYzaLfamNTnA4cVBCVDZ0akJqUmtSelV6dGYwR1YyUndQQlRHYkpuWmZ6cVk2eVFKTQ)


QuoteThe president and others at Beloit know, of course, what's been happening at other colleges in the Midwest. In fact, Bierman is a good friend and former Carleton College colleague of Nathan D. Grawe, a Carleton economics professor who is the author of Demographics and the Demand for Higher Education. "We have been well in tune with a sophisticated view of the demographics," says Bierman, "way beyond, What's the aggregate number of high-school graduates?"
Bierman's main effort strikes me as reasonable: state the value proposition of LACs repeatedly to faculty, students, policy makers and prospects. That gets everyone on message, aligns expectations and lets those who find value in LACs find that value.

That same concept applies to the even tinier sliver if higher ed(<10 LACs) that is places designed for the brilliant misfit (Hampshire, St Johns...). They enroll so few students that demographics don't matter much; finding the prospects and delivering for them. Polly described earlier how St Johns is succeeding and Hampshire did not. Beloit's new VP for enrollment spent 20 years at one such place (Bard at Simon's Rock), so we'll see what she comes up with to deliver on the president's initiative.

Fully agreed w/you Hibush. Unlike some other college admins who'd rather bury their heads in the sands when confronted with a similar problem, Beloit president seems to know the problem his institution is facing, realizes the need to engage with his constituencies and stakeholders on the values of liberal arts education, and is now hiring senior executives with experience on how to market his SLAC under a much more challenging market environment these days. I wish him and Beloit College well.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 18, 2019, 06:54:44 AM
I, too, wish Beloit College well, but I don't see them making it unless several of their similar competitors go out of business first and Beloit snaps up the students before the cheaper publics do.

College Score Card lets me compare Beloit to UW-Platteville.  When I was making the choice way back when the math came out a little differently, but Platteville is a pretty good choice for a regionally constrained student.  The two are similar on costs on most measures, while Beloit has a slightly higher average debt on slightly lower average earnings.  Platteville has a much wider array of majors and more activities (associated with many more students), which can be appealing for those who are in favor of college as an intellectual place, but don't know exactly what the specifics mean.

When I was a kid, I spent a lot of time on the UW-Platteville campus.  It was not at all overwhelming for small town me, unlike UW-Madison or University of Chicago.

Thus, although it is clear to me why someone might want a (Small and Selective Enough)LAC, it's not clear to me why anyone would choose Beloit over any of the very good similarly-priced-after-discounts-are-applied choices in the region.  It's also not clear why someone who is looking for a good college education in the same region, but not totally in love with the SLAC version would choose Beloit over Platteville.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 18, 2019, 08:36:51 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 18, 2019, 06:54:44 AM
  It's also not clear why someone who is looking for a good college education in the same region, but not totally in love with the SLAC version would choose Beloit over Platteville.

The plan seems to be that the student or parent will have heard Beloit's story a lot more than Platteville's, even if the student would be happy at either.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 18, 2019, 05:37:16 PM
Quote from: Hibush on November 18, 2019, 08:36:51 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 18, 2019, 06:54:44 AM
  It's also not clear why someone who is looking for a good college education in the same region, but not totally in love with the SLAC version would choose Beloit over Platteville.

The plan seems to be that the student or parent will have heard Beloit's story a lot more than Platteville's, even if the student would be happy at either.

So the story is supposed to win over data?  Interesting for a place selling critical thinking.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 18, 2019, 06:10:46 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 18, 2019, 05:37:16 PM
Quote from: Hibush on November 18, 2019, 08:36:51 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 18, 2019, 06:54:44 AM
  It's also not clear why someone who is looking for a good college education in the same region, but not totally in love with the SLAC version would choose Beloit over Platteville.

The plan seems to be that the student or parent will have heard Beloit's story a lot more than Platteville's, even if the student would be happy at either.

So the story is supposed to win over data?  Interesting for a place selling critical thinking.

There is no question we are talking marketing of quality products.

In sales & marketing, the better story usually wins. If you have no story...nobody looks at your data.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 18, 2019, 06:49:10 PM
Quote from: Hibush on November 18, 2019, 06:10:46 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 18, 2019, 05:37:16 PM
Quote from: Hibush on November 18, 2019, 08:36:51 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 18, 2019, 06:54:44 AM
  It's also not clear why someone who is looking for a good college education in the same region, but not totally in love with the SLAC version would choose Beloit over Platteville.

The plan seems to be that the student or parent will have heard Beloit's story a lot more than Platteville's, even if the student would be happy at either.

So the story is supposed to win over data?  Interesting for a place selling critical thinking.

There is no question we are talking marketing of quality products.

In sales & marketing, the better story usually wins. If you have no story...nobody looks at your data.

OK.  What's Beloit doing to compete with Platteville in terms of having kids from the region regularly visit campus to hear the story?  We visited Platteville multiple times per year for math team, music competitions, and science camps starting in middle school.  I've never been on Beloit campus, despite living within half an hour drive for years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: irhack on November 19, 2019, 06:38:30 AM
Well, Beloit is nationally famous for the annual https://themindsetlist.com/2018/08/beloit-college-mindset-list-class-2022/ (https://themindsetlist.com/2018/08/beloit-college-mindset-list-class-2022/).

But I grew up in the general region and neither it nor Platteville ever crossed my mind as options. Beloit is in, well, Beloit, which must be about the worst town in Wisconsin and if I were going to pick a UW it would be Madison. So, I worry for them both.

Anyone read https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/11/19/private-colleges-convinced-company-scuttle-release-list-projected-college-closures (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/11/19/private-colleges-convinced-company-scuttle-release-list-projected-college-closures)?

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on November 19, 2019, 08:55:12 AM
Polly, your training makes you very data driven. But most people are not. They may consider a school because they know someone who went there, or their college counselor has had luck getting students in to a particular school, or the sports team did well that year, or they want the "prestige" of attending a private school. Lots of very irrational reasons that have nothing to do with data.
   This why alumni networks and legacies can be so important to these smaller schools.  I've seen this effect even with highly educated parents who should know better. So don't discount the "fuzzy" impact of a good story. Besides, Bob Benson on Mad Men went to Beloit, so there's a real selling point! I'm sure they loved the PR.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on November 19, 2019, 10:03:19 AM
Colleges need more horses in them. Everyone loves horses. I think that's the only thing keeping that little tiny women's college from shutting down.

And beer gardens. Beer gardens are white hot right now.

Having a pharmacy school is also pretty reliable as an attention grabber.

I predict that "food forests" might be one the next big lures. Everywhere I go, people keep yammering about food forests. I'd much rather put in a microscale wildlife preserve than deal with an effing mess of fruit trees.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 19, 2019, 12:59:10 PM
Quote from: Aster on November 19, 2019, 10:03:19 AM
I predict that "food forests" might be one the next big lures. Everywhere I go, people keep yammering about food forests. I'd much rather put in a microscale wildlife preserve than deal with an effing mess of fruit trees.

Be sure you stop and smell the daisies! (That's good for student mental health, so there's an institutional rationale.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on November 19, 2019, 01:08:04 PM
QuoteBe sure you stop and smell the daisies! (That's good for student mental health, so there's an institutional rationale.)

Funny you should mention that. I helped set up an aromatherapy garden a few years back at Big Urban College. It never really took off. This makes me sad.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on November 19, 2019, 01:08:09 PM
Lazy rivers?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 19, 2019, 06:13:25 PM
Quote from: irhack on November 19, 2019, 06:38:30 AM
Well, Beloit is nationally famous for the annual https://themindsetlist.com/2018/08/beloit-college-mindset-list-class-2022/ (https://themindsetlist.com/2018/08/beloit-college-mindset-list-class-2022/).

[. . . ]

Not anymore. It is no longer affiliated with the Mindset List.

Quote from: Aster on November 19, 2019, 10:03:19 AM
Colleges need more horses in them. Everyone loves horses. I think that's the only thing keeping that little tiny women's college from shutting down.

[. . .]

My employer recently started an equestrian team. I assume it's because rich girls looking for a place to take their horses don't need as large of a tuition discount.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Bede the Vulnerable on November 20, 2019, 01:04:56 AM
Quote from: Aster on November 19, 2019, 10:03:19 AM

Having a pharmacy school is also pretty reliable as an attention grabber.


No joke.  My undergrad alma mater started a Pharm. D. program several years ago.  It's actually bringing in students and $$$.  The place should be on the "Dire Financial Straits" list, given its profile.  But it has had two really capable presidents in a row, and a board that will support them. 

(My graduate U. has more money than God. I'll discuss it if there's ever a thread about "Colleges that are Really Annoying.") 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on November 20, 2019, 08:33:22 AM
Quote from: Aster on November 19, 2019, 10:03:19 AM
Colleges need more horses in them. Everyone loves horses. I think that's the only thing keeping that little tiny women's college from shutting down.

And beer gardens. Beer gardens are white hot right now.

Having a pharmacy school is also pretty reliable as an attention grabber.

I predict that "food forests" might be one the next big lures. Everywhere I go, people keep yammering about food forests. I'd much rather put in a microscale wildlife preserve than deal with an effing mess of fruit trees.

Not anymore.  Every dinky faith-based school that was worried about making payroll has opened one.  20 years ago, there were ~ 70 schools of pharmacy.  Now there are ~ 140.  Most are not filling their classes.  The job market is largely saturated, layoffs abound (Wal-Mart is talking about laying off 40% of their senior staff including pharmacists), and student interest has declined significantly. You all should hope they are not just diving deeper into the candidate pool just to fill their roster.  Do you want the person who handles your medications to have graduated from a school with a 30% pass rate on the boards -- which is the reality right now.  What used to be a cash cow for cash strapped schools is rapidly turning into a law school kind of debacle.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on November 20, 2019, 09:36:13 AM
That's good to know. I have been wary of the explosion of pharmacy programs for some time now. Thank you for providing some recent background on market saturation.

It has always seemed to make little sense to me how any health science program with small cohort sizes was a "money maker". I mean, what actually brings in all the money if it's not the students? And most of these professional health science programs are expensive to operate. Is there some weird pool of big-budget grants and gifts that associate with and specially fund health science programs?

Or are they more like football, a money pit itself in operating costs but offset by generous alumni support?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 20, 2019, 10:38:07 AM
Quote from: Aster on November 20, 2019, 09:36:13 AM
Or are they more like football, a money pit itself in operating costs but offset by generous alumni support?

Alumni provide the most generous support at two points in their lives: just after retirement and just after death. Both of those events are a number of decades after they graduate. A successful new Pharm D program will not see substantial operating costs begin to be offset by alumni donations until 2070. Can they hold out that long?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on November 20, 2019, 10:48:57 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 20, 2019, 10:38:07 AM
Quote from: Aster on November 20, 2019, 09:36:13 AM
Or are they more like football, a money pit itself in operating costs but offset by generous alumni support?

Alumni provide the most generous support at two points in their lives: just after retirement and just after death. Both of those events are a number of decades after they graduate. A successful new Pharm D program will not see substantial operating costs begin to be offset by alumni donations until 2070. Can they hold out that long?

Replying to you and Aster

Are The U of Artem, it's a 6 yr program and ideally students come to your school as entering FR.  Their financial aid package/tuition discount etc. is for their first 4 yrs.  Their last 2 yrs are full freight tuition.  So, if you are down 30 students a year x 2 yrs x $40,000..... That's $2.4 million for each cohort you're down by 30.  Do that for a few years and sooner or later, you're talking about real money.  Add in that clinical faculty cost a whole lot more than faculty in the humanities and you can see where this is headed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on November 20, 2019, 06:28:44 PM
One might wonder why anyone would want to be a pharmacist today.  Anyone can put pills in a bottle and read printouts describing possible side effects of meds, etc.  I get that sometimes there are serious questions to answer, potential drug interactions that the computer didn't flag, etc., but most of the time the job sounds pretty boring and a waste of the pharmacist's skills.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on November 21, 2019, 12:38:55 AM
But it's a case of preventative knowledge that lies lurking in case there's an error in the chain of diagnosis.

A knowledgeable Rx may be the only person who sees that a client has been given both warfarin and one of the sulfa drugs that, taken together, cause crystals to precipitate in the urine (crystaluria).

If the same person usually fills your Rx's, they may see and question an error like the transcriptionist writing "g" instead of "mg."

They may be the only one who thinks to ask, "Why, when the diagnosis has always been "hypertension," does it suddenly say "hypotension"? And why has a different drug been ordered instead of the usual one?"

Just between, say, an urgent midnight ER admission, a sleepy on-call resident, a rushed attending MD, and a dyslexic RN, you may have 5 points of possible error with little chance for review (although good AM nursing rounds should catch it, too...)

An intelligent, well-educated pharmacist is your next-to-last line of defense against a serious drug-induced complication.

It's not MacDonald's....

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 21, 2019, 02:41:22 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on November 20, 2019, 08:33:22 AM
Quote from: Aster on November 19, 2019, 10:03:19 AM
Colleges need more horses in them. Everyone loves horses. I think that's the only thing keeping that little tiny women's college from shutting down.

And beer gardens. Beer gardens are white hot right now.

Having a pharmacy school is also pretty reliable as an attention grabber.

I predict that "food forests" might be one the next big lures. Everywhere I go, people keep yammering about food forests. I'd much rather put in a microscale wildlife preserve than deal with an effing mess of fruit trees.

Not anymore.  Every dinky faith-based school that was worried about making payroll has opened one.  20 years ago, there were ~ 70 schools of pharmacy.  Now there are ~ 140.  Most are not filling their classes.  The job market is largely saturated, layoffs abound (Wal-Mart is talking about laying off 40% of their senior staff including pharmacists), and student interest has declined significantly. You all should hope they are not just diving deeper into the candidate pool just to fill their roster.  Do you want the person who handles your medications to have graduated from a school with a 30% pass rate on the boards -- which is the reality right now.  What used to be a cash cow for cash strapped schools is rapidly turning into a law school kind of debacle.

I think the same happened with Doctor of Physical Therapy programs in the late 1990s/early 2000s. There are now ~ 220 DPT programs in the USA. They were seen as cash cows and proliferating like crazy. Then health insurance plans  limited the number of covered physical therapy appointments, so demand for physical therapists dropped off, and enrollments crashed. At least that's the impression I've gotten from talking with people familiar with the field.

Anyway, Beloit is sort of in the middle of a triangle between Madison, Milwaukee, and Chicago. Colleges/universities in those cities are not beyond the comfort radius of high schoolers in an area of declining population. And it doesn't have the cachet of a super-elite like Bryn Mawr or Grinnell.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Juvenal on November 21, 2019, 03:33:56 AM
This belongs, in "Misread," but it was not a title I saw.  I saw this line:

Having a pharmacy school is also pretty reliable as an attention grabber.

Scrolling down fast, it registered for a moment as "a pregnancy school."  That was another kind of attention grabber.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on November 21, 2019, 05:17:33 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 20, 2019, 06:28:44 PM
One might wonder why anyone would want to be a pharmacist today.  Anyone can put pills in a bottle and read printouts describing possible side effects of meds, etc.  I get that sometimes there are serious questions to answer, potential drug interactions that the computer didn't flag, etc., but most of the time the job sounds pretty boring and a waste of the pharmacist's skills.

I could have had a pension by now. But it's more responsibility than being a clerk. Don't come to work tired! Two of my colleagues quit adjunct work for pharmacy school.

It would be nice to have a job where you don't have to get someone else to do something so they can get a passing grade. Talk about wasted skill.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 21, 2019, 07:29:44 AM
Quote from: Juvenal on November 21, 2019, 03:33:56 AM
This belongs, in "Misread," but it was not a title I saw.  I saw this line:

Having a pharmacy school is also pretty reliable as an attention grabber.

Scrolling down fast, it registered for a moment as "a pregnancy school."  That was another kind of attention grabber.


In this age of declining birthrates I suppose starting a program in obstetrics wouldn't be a good idea either.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 21, 2019, 07:42:57 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 20, 2019, 06:28:44 PM
One might wonder why anyone would want to be a pharmacist today.  Anyone can put pills in a bottle and read printouts describing possible side effects of meds, etc.  I get that sometimes there are serious questions to answer, potential drug interactions that the computer didn't flag, etc., but most of the time the job sounds pretty boring and a waste of the pharmacist's skills.

And all librarians do is check books in and out and shelve them, and all teachers do is drone on all day in front of class and move papers around, and all masons do is stick bricks together with mud, etc.

It's usually a bad idea to express strong opinions on an occupation one has no way of really knowing anything about.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on November 21, 2019, 08:51:07 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 20, 2019, 06:28:44 PM
One might wonder why anyone would want to be a pharmacist today.  Anyone can put pills in a bottle and read printouts describing possible side effects of meds, etc.  I get that sometimes there are serious questions to answer, potential drug interactions that the computer didn't flag, etc., but most of the time the job sounds pretty boring and a waste of the pharmacist's skills.

You are making the assumption that all PharmD's are those poor b@st@rds behind the counter at a Wal-Green's or CVS.  Between meeting the Key Performance Indicators set by their regional managers, the shifting sands of what the insurance companies will pay for this week, and the consumer who thinks that their insurance is really the pharmacist's problem, some of what you say is true.  But that is by no means the entire profession.  And even those poor b@st@rds at Wal-Greens do more than move pills from big bottles into little ones.  Just because you don't see it happening, doesn't mean nothing is going on back there.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on November 21, 2019, 08:52:12 AM
There is a big difference between being the one pharmacist and being the pharmacy technician. The technicians are the ones that count the pills. There is also a huge difference between being the pharmacist at the local CVS and being a pharmacist at a major medical center. At the hospital, pharmacists are often field specific (oncology, infectious disease etc.) They also have become one of the most important players in infection control and limiting inappropriate use of antibiotics. But as you specialize there are fewer jobs, of course.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on November 21, 2019, 09:43:03 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on November 20, 2019, 08:33:22 AM
Most are not filling their classes.  The job market is largely saturated, layoffs abound (Wal-Mart is talking about laying off 40% of their senior staff including pharmacists), and student interest has declined significantly.

There has also been a dramatic change in the structure of the industry. The giants (CVS, Walgreen's, Walmart, etc.) have taken over and put the small guys out of business or in a serious hurt. The pay they offer is pretty bad relative to what you used to make as an independent pharmacist. Or so I've been told by bitter ex-pharmacists.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on November 21, 2019, 02:26:14 PM
OK people. Let's try going back to what's this forum is about, which is discussing Colleges in Dire Financial Straits.

Here is a follow-up to the story about Marlboro College's planned merger with Emerson. Some perspectives from faculty and students of the college about how does it meant for them and what would its closure would have meant for them as well as for future students interested in a liberal arts education:

https://www.vpr.org/post/really-beautiful-community-marlboro-college-prepares-close-its-doors#stream/0

QuoteAmer Latif has taught religious studies at Marlboro College for 16 years. When he first interviewed for a job teaching at the school, Latif said the scene inside the dining hall convinced him that this small liberal arts college in southern Vermont would be a good place to work.

"No matter who you are on this campus — the president, the staff; if you're a janitor, you're a professor, you're a student — we all sit together and eat at the same table," Latif said. "So if you're a religious person, like myself, you might think of it in those terms that this was the ideal that many prophets tried to achieve. And we had a secular version of that here. And of course, that for me is the loss that we will have of a really beautiful community where people are people. We really treat each other as fully beautiful human beings."

QuoteAnna Morrissey is a senior at Marlboro College so she doesn't have to worry about where she'll attend school next year. But in the four years she's been here she's watched schools like Marlboro shut down, so she wonders where students like her will end up as the prospects for liberal arts educations fade.

"To see the schools with this model of, like, bringing in students — they're not all valedictorians, they didn't all get the best SAT scores, but they're really driven — and you bring them here and you get out of their way and they like do something amazing. And like, that is the one that has to go?" Morrissey said. "That's the one that for whatever reason isn't sustainable or isn't valued makes no sense to me. And in the worser days of this process that's what feels the most unfair."

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 21, 2019, 03:34:52 PM
The article says tenured faculty have jobs at Emerson. Not tenure-track?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 21, 2019, 05:00:31 PM
Quote from: spork on November 21, 2019, 03:34:52 PM
The article says tenured faculty have jobs at Emerson. Not tenure-track?
The original information said tenure track. The tenured Marlboro faculty will have to re-earn tenure at Emerson.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: nonntt on November 21, 2019, 07:02:43 PM
I'm sorry for prolonging the tangent, but there were several high-profile news articles recently about the ROI of college degrees, and how small pharmacy schools were beating out Harvard and Stanford for the top spots, based on this project:
https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/collegeroi/

So I appreciate the insight that pharmacy is a bubble about to burst.

Now, back to more dying colleges...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on November 21, 2019, 10:13:02 PM
I get that there are still jobs for pharmacists that actually allow them to use those skills, but most of what they obviously do *in plain view of the customer* at places like Wal-Mart is more pr less exactly the same as having an MLS check out or reshelve books.  It is certainly true that pharmacists can and do give specific meds advice to patients when asked, and could be the last line of defense against inadvertent med interactions, but most such cases will be caught be the computer unless the patient is using multiple pharmacies (at which time the pharmacist in the place you're at niw won't have any idea you're taking meds filled elsewhere, to note that potential interaction).

While we're at it, Wal-Mart at least pisses off the regular med customers, and lades up their pharmacists with the inane task of regularly making the patent who's just paid for his prescriptions to have the pharmacist take the bottles out of the bag , read the label, and ask 'any questions', even if it's a reguiar customer who's refilling a prescription that he's filled there as is for years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on November 22, 2019, 07:46:16 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 21, 2019, 10:13:02 PM
I get that there are still jobs for pharmacists that actually allow them to use those skills, but most of what they obviously do *in plain view of the customer* at places like Wal-Mart is more pr less exactly the same as having an MLS check out or reshelve books.  It is certainly true that pharmacists can and do give specific meds advice to patients when asked, and could be the last line of defense against inadvertent med interactions, but most such cases will be caught be the computer unless the patient is using multiple pharmacies (at which time the pharmacist in the place you're at niw won't have any idea you're taking meds filled elsewhere, to note that potential interaction).

While we're at it, Wal-Mart at least pisses off the regular med customers, and lades up their pharmacists with the inane task of regularly making the patent who's just paid for his prescriptions to have the pharmacist take the bottles out of the bag , read the label, and ask 'any questions', even if it's a reguiar customer who's refilling a prescription that he's filled there as is for years.

That's actually a good idea. You never know if a patient might be developing side effects. Or suddenly trying herbal remedies not realizing they might interfere with the meds. Or take another prescription that is being filled elsewhere "because it's cheaper at CVS."

If their doctor just rushes in and out with an impatient, foot-tapping "any questions?' they might not know who else they could ask.

.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 22, 2019, 08:31:07 AM
Now the CHE is reporting that a company that tried to publish a list of colleges in financial trouble--complete with projected likely dates of closure--has been threatened with lawsuits by some of those on the list:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/A-Doomsday-List-of-Possible/247592?cid=wsinglestory_6_1a


On the one hand, this could be a useful service to help keep potential students and faculty hires from boarding a sinking ship unawares. 

On the other, it could easily turn into something of a self-fulfilling prophecy in some cases.  There's a lot of complaining about the influence that U.S. News & World Report's rankings have on higher education.  Imagine the mischief that could follow if prospective students started treating a "dying college" watchlist as gospel.  Any school that got on the list would be in danger of instantly seeing its enrollments and revenues tank.  Colleges with reason to fear that they might be put on the list would be frantically scrambling to improve whatever metrics the list uses, with possible distortions and perverse incentives.  And anyway, are the data really that good?  Might they not inadvertently--or perhaps even intentionally--be skewed against certain kinds of institutions?

Colleges trying to suppress the list doesn't look good from the point of view of transparency.  But it's hard to blame them for being alarmed at proposals to publish such a list.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on November 22, 2019, 09:34:16 PM
Yes but they don't ask me whether I'm taking any herbal supplements or buying any other prescriptions at CVS.  All they do is take out the bottles of my meds and say, take one three times a day, etc, which even if I hadn't been taking this med for 5 years, assumes illiteracy on my part, infantilizing me.  But I am a regular repeat customer, the pharmacist knows this, and so does the computer.  And all the time it takes her to do this is taking time away from her doing serious professional tasks.. And pissing me off.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on November 23, 2019, 05:40:07 PM
University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh announces restructuring plans:

https://advancetitan.com/news/2019/11/13/uwo-considers-restructuring-colleges  (https://advancetitan.com/news/2019/11/13/uwo-considers-restructuring-colleges)

QuoteThe University is considering plans to restructure its current four-college system, which could change the names of colleges and schools, and move departments and programs to colleges that are closer aligned to each other. 

Under one of the proposals, degrees and programs currently located in the College of Letters and Science would be moved to a new college with a different name and with degrees and programs that are closer aligned to each other. 

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 23, 2019, 09:14:04 PM
Quote from: apl68 on November 22, 2019, 08:31:07 AM
Now the CHE is reporting that a company that tried to publish a list of colleges in financial trouble--complete with projected likely dates of closure--has been threatened with lawsuits by some of those on the list:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/A-Doomsday-List-of-Possible/247592?cid=wsinglestory_6_1a

This is the CHE version of the IHE story that irhack posted upthread:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/11/19/private-colleges-convinced-company-scuttle-release-list-projected-college-closures

The authors of the scuttled story and database wrote a different article: https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2019/11/19/college-closures-and-their-costs-consumers-opinion

A comment on one of the related articles that sticks with me is if you are trying to keep it secret for years while you're sorting it out, then you're probably doing it wrong and likely won't sort it out.

Another article on the big-picture aspect is https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/11/01/publishing-colleges-financial-information-has-long-history-and-raises-larger-set
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 23, 2019, 09:43:34 PM
For those who like data:
http://collegemeltdown.blogspot.com/2019/01/college-meltdown-shows-few-signs-of.html has several links and related stories to financial straits and closures.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on November 24, 2019, 04:10:58 PM
 https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2019/11/23/struggling-hampshire-college-gets-big-reprieve/czvQFvdKscxl7zPvAyHqXP/story.html  (https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2019/11/23/struggling-hampshire-college-gets-big-reprieve/czvQFvdKscxl7zPvAyHqXP/story.html)

Quote
Hampshire College, the iconoclastic Western Massachusetts school, has pulled itself from the brink of closure after a chaotic year and kept its all-important accreditation.

The regional accreditation board Saturday announced that Hampshire had earned a reprieve and noted that the small private college is on the right track as it tries to strengthen its leadership and shore up its finances.

The New England Commission of Higher Education announced that at a hearing Friday, Hampshire showed it had made "substantial progress" since May.

The college avoided what would have probably been its death knell — having its accreditation pulled or being placed on probation — the accreditor announced.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 26, 2019, 04:22:08 PM
Cheyney University has its accreditation reaffirmed: https://www.inquirer.com/education/cheyney-university-accreditation-middle-states-finances-20191125.html (https://www.inquirer.com/education/cheyney-university-accreditation-middle-states-finances-20191125.html).

Basically it's too politically inconvenient to pull the plug.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on November 26, 2019, 06:23:03 PM
Quote from: spork on November 26, 2019, 04:22:08 PM
Cheyney University has its accreditation reaffirmed: https://www.inquirer.com/education/cheyney-university-accreditation-middle-states-finances-20191125.html (https://www.inquirer.com/education/cheyney-university-accreditation-middle-states-finances-20191125.html).

Basically it's too politically inconvenient to pull the plug.

According to Wikipedia, PA has 14 unis in the PA State System of Higher Education and 4 more in the Commonwealth System of Higher Education.  Of the latter 4, Penn State has 24 campuses, Pitt has 5, Temple has 5, and Lincoln has 2.  Can PA afford to bail them all out if they run into trouble?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 26, 2019, 07:32:26 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on November 26, 2019, 06:23:03 PM
Quote from: spork on November 26, 2019, 04:22:08 PM
Cheyney University has its accreditation reaffirmed: https://www.inquirer.com/education/cheyney-university-accreditation-middle-states-finances-20191125.html (https://www.inquirer.com/education/cheyney-university-accreditation-middle-states-finances-20191125.html).

Basically it's too politically inconvenient to pull the plug.

According to Wikipedia, PA has 14 unis in the PA State System of Higher Education and 4 more in the Commonwealth System of Higher Education.  Of the latter 4, Penn State has 24 campuses, Pitt has 5, Temple has 5, and Lincoln has 2.  Can PA afford to bail them all out if they run into trouble?

Perhaps it is spendthrift and indeed political, but shouldn't we celebrate this as good news?

I would like to see higher ed weather the storm personally.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 27, 2019, 03:44:32 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on November 26, 2019, 06:23:03 PM

[. . .]

According to Wikipedia, PA has 14 unis in the PA State System of Higher Education and 4 more in the Commonwealth System of Higher Education.  Of the latter 4, Penn State has 24 campuses, Pitt has 5, Temple has 5, and Lincoln has 2.  Can PA afford to bail them all out if they run into trouble?

PA taxpayers are not going to appreciate being told they have to pay off the debt that was generated trying to keep all these campuses afloat. The state's population simply doesn't need this many campuses. Many have shiny new, bond-financed buildings: http://activelearningps.com/2014/06/05/when-your-college-is-a-poor-indebted-country-and-theres-no-imf-bailout/ (http://activelearningps.com/2014/06/05/when-your-college-is-a-poor-indebted-country-and-theres-no-imf-bailout/).

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 26, 2019, 07:32:26 PM

[. . . ]

Perhaps it is spendthrift and indeed political, but shouldn't we celebrate this as good news?

I would like to see higher ed weather the storm personally.

Cheyney's statistics for retention, graduation rate, etc., are terrible. A small private college with this kind of track record and debt would be toast, and rightly so. Paying $40 million to keep this place open is not, in my opinion, good news.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 27, 2019, 05:31:03 AM
Quote from: spork on November 27, 2019, 03:44:32 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on November 26, 2019, 06:23:03 PM

[. . .]

According to Wikipedia, PA has 14 unis in the PA State System of Higher Education and 4 more in the Commonwealth System of Higher Education.  Of the latter 4, Penn State has 24 campuses, Pitt has 5, Temple has 5, and Lincoln has 2.  Can PA afford to bail them all out if they run into trouble?

PA taxpayers are not going to appreciate being told they have to pay off the debt that was generated trying to keep all these campuses afloat. The state's population simply doesn't need this many campuses. Many have shiny new, bond-financed buildings: http://activelearningps.com/2014/06/05/when-your-college-is-a-poor-indebted-country-and-theres-no-imf-bailout/ (http://activelearningps.com/2014/06/05/when-your-college-is-a-poor-indebted-country-and-theres-no-imf-bailout/).

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 26, 2019, 07:32:26 PM

[. . . ]

Perhaps it is spendthrift and indeed political, but shouldn't we celebrate this as good news?

I would like to see higher ed weather the storm personally.

Cheyney's statistics for retention, graduation rate, etc., are terrible. A small private college with this kind of track record and debt would be toast, and rightly so. Paying $40 million to keep this place open is not, in my opinion, good news.

The political end of this is that Cheyney takes a lot of students who are at high risk of dropping out, but some of them succeed. The successes are especially prized, and probably overcome the crummy stats. It's significant place in Pennsylvania and African-American history also plays a role. The school is seen as an avenue for black Philadelphians to better enter the educated middle class, to a greater extent than other public universities in Pennsylvania. Whether that remains true will depend on how they manage academics and now that they have been relieved of the $40 million debt.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 27, 2019, 08:38:38 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 27, 2019, 05:31:03 AM
The political end of this is that Cheyney takes a lot of students who are at high risk of dropping out, but some of them succeed. The successes are especially prized, and probably overcome the crummy stats. It's significant place in Pennsylvania and African-American history also plays a role. The school is seen as an avenue for black Philadelphians to better enter the educated middle class, to a greater extent than other public universities in Pennsylvania. Whether that remains true will depend on how they manage academics and now that they have been relieved of the $40 million debt.

Still sounds like good news to me.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on November 29, 2019, 03:30:06 PM
QuoteAccording to Wikipedia, PA has 14 unis in the PA State System of Higher Education and 4 more in the Commonwealth System of Higher Education.  Of the latter 4, Penn State has 24 campuses, Pitt has 5, Temple has 5, and Lincoln has 2.  Can PA afford to bail them all out if they run into trouble?

QuotePA taxpayers are not going to appreciate being told they have to pay off the debt that was generated trying to keep all these campuses afloat. The state's population simply doesn't need this many campuses. Many have shiny new, bond-financed buildings: http://activelearningps.com/2014/06/05/when-your-college-is-a-poor-indebted-country-and-theres-no-imf-bailout/ (http://activelearningps.com/2014/06/05/when-your-college-is-a-poor-indebted-country-and-theres-no-imf-bailout/).

Are any of these expenses tied to the legal defense and payout costs required to settle the Sandusky scandal?

They'll probably be even more pleased about that...

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 02, 2019, 03:04:22 AM
Post-closure profile of College of St. Joseph: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/12/02/college-leaders-grapple-best-way-reopen-closed-campus (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/12/02/college-leaders-grapple-best-way-reopen-closed-campus).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 02, 2019, 06:41:33 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 27, 2019, 08:38:38 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 27, 2019, 05:31:03 AM
The political end of this is that Cheyney takes a lot of students who are at high risk of dropping out, but some of them succeed. The successes are especially prized, and probably overcome the crummy stats. It's significant place in Pennsylvania and African-American history also plays a role. The school is seen as an avenue for black Philadelphians to better enter the educated middle class, to a greater extent than other public universities in Pennsylvania. Whether that remains true will depend on how they manage academics and now that they have been relieved of the $40 million debt.

Still sounds like good news to me.

No, it's not good news because the opportunity cost in keeping this particular school open means money isn't going into fixing the K-12 situation that results in students needing a place like Cheyney.  Opportunity cost means that money doesn't go into some other institution in the Pennsylvania system that is just having a minor blip now and could be saved if it can get over the blip. 

That money to prop up Cheyney means the money isn't going into social services that would help support those same students at some other institution closer to home.  That money to prop up Cheyney means less money and resources for a different type of education that might help people with complicated lives get a good start on adulthood now so they can afford in time and energy to go to an academic institution in their mid-thirties/forties.

Cheyney is 30 miles from Philadelphia, according to Google maps, in an unincorporated region.  West Chester University, a place that has much better stats than Cheyney, is only six miles away.  College Scorecard indicates 100+ institutions within 30 miles of Cheyney.  Thus, Cheyney is not serving an isolated place that will become an education desert without even good online options if this one institution goes under, which would be one possible reason to prop up a failing institution.

About five years ago, IHE wrote an article regarding Cheyney indicating severe mismanagement to the point of not reviewing applications for new admissions. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/09/15/problems-mount-cheyney-university-oldest-hbcu)  That article contains the standard struggling institution statements of deferred maintenance, mismanagement of financial aid, academic programs with minimal student interest, and yet still costing the same in tuition as West Chester and the rest of the PASSHE system.

Quote
"The bottom line is that it's about the value proposition," says Ivan Turnipseed, who is chair of Cheyney's Hospitality and Recreation Management Department and has served in the leadership of its Faculty Senate and faculty union. "The reason Cheyney doesn't get the amount of students that we could handle is because it costs the same as West Chester and all the other schools, and the value proposition isn't the same."
Turnipseed added: "The overall experience leaves a lot of people wanting."

The result is that some students don't stick around long. Fully 45 percent leave Cheyney after their first year.
Reference: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/09/15/problems-mount-cheyney-university-oldest-hbcu


The current College Scorecard information for Cheyney indicates that enrollment is about the same at 700 students as when the 2015 article was written with a 25% graduation rate and $24k annual salary 10 years after graduation (https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/school/?211608-Cheyney-University-of-Pennsylvania).  That $24k is not surprising considering the popular majors at Cheyney (and it may be worth mentioning that the college majors listed in the 2015 article are not among the top ten currently on College Scorecard), but that's problematic for a 79% borrowing rate with an average loan amount of $33k.  All that information appears under a red banner indicating being monitored by the US Department of Education for financial reasons (still, five years later).

Just this week, I read about helping African American men succeed in college where University of Maryland- Baltimore County has some excellent programs. (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-umbc-got-minority-students-stick-stem/602635/).  For years, Cheyney has received about triple the per-student allocation as other PASSHE institutions as well as tens of millions of dollars for capital improvements and it's still not enough because of how small Cheyney is. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/09/15/problems-mount-cheyney-university-oldest-hbcu) 

Lincoln University in PA is also a HBCU that is 30 miles away from Cheyney that has much better statistics including finances.  Closing Cheyney to help Lincoln survive would be a win.  Closing Cheyney to support some of the community colleges in the area would be a win.  Propping up Cheyney for now because no one wants to be the grown-up stating that Cheyney's day has passed and the students need better is a lose all around.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 02, 2019, 07:03:53 AM
Quote from: spork on December 02, 2019, 03:04:22 AM
Post-closure profile of College of St. Joseph: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/12/02/college-leaders-grapple-best-way-reopen-closed-campus (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/12/02/college-leaders-grapple-best-way-reopen-closed-campus).

I give them credit for stepping back and looking at what the local community needs that might be met by the infrastructure of the campus. They probably also have a small advantage in having what could be two independent facilities with different development trajectories. Each would be scaled to the smaller local needs.

The marketing language is too "aspirational" to hook me. Leading a telecommuting-based back-to-the-land movement from urban America to small-town Vermont is too tall an order for me to buy in. There is already far more supply than demand, some with much better finances and operational institutions as anchors.

One good quote about a pitfall that derives from the blind spots of the people who end up with residual responsibility: "When you recreate it, you recreate some of the same elements that caused it not to be successful in today's context."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 02, 2019, 01:43:15 PM
The Evergreen State College lost 40% of its enrollment over the last decade:

https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/education/article237591209.html (https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/education/article237591209.html).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 02, 2019, 01:47:55 PM
"the only way we're going to succeed is by putting other colleges out of business, because you have to take market share." (https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2019/11/27/dawn-of-the-dead-for-hundreds-of-the-nations-private-colleges-its-merge-or-perish/#69822a2b770d)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on December 02, 2019, 02:55:14 PM
Quote from: spork on December 02, 2019, 01:47:55 PM
"the only way we're going to succeed is by putting other colleges out of business, because you have to take market share." (https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2019/11/27/dawn-of-the-dead-for-hundreds-of-the-nations-private-colleges-its-merge-or-perish/#69822a2b770d)

Disturbing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 02, 2019, 04:53:02 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on December 02, 2019, 02:55:14 PM
Quote from: spork on December 02, 2019, 01:47:55 PM
"the only way we're going to succeed is by putting other colleges out of business, because you have to take market share." (https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2019/11/27/dawn-of-the-dead-for-hundreds-of-the-nations-private-colleges-its-merge-or-perish/#69822a2b770d)

Disturbing.
With a declining market, this statement is the obvious conclusion from doing a little algebra. The person who said it was frustrated that his college's board didn't get it, that they were expecting secular growth.

Here are the stats from the article:

Public colleges have 6.4% excess capacity, growing at about half a percentage point a year.
Private colleges have 12.4% excess capacity, growing at about triple the rate of public colleges
The smaller half of private not-for-profit colleges, those with enrollments below 1,125, have overcapacity of 28% and growing rapidly.

There is no way to manage a private college with 20 or 30% empty seats and zero tuition.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on December 02, 2019, 05:54:43 PM
Quote from: Hibush on December 02, 2019, 04:53:02 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on December 02, 2019, 02:55:14 PM
Quote from: spork on December 02, 2019, 01:47:55 PM
"the only way we're going to succeed is by putting other colleges out of business, because you have to take market share." (https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2019/11/27/dawn-of-the-dead-for-hundreds-of-the-nations-private-colleges-its-merge-or-perish/#69822a2b770d)

Disturbing.
With a declining market, this statement is the obvious conclusion from doing a little algebra. The person who said it was frustrated that his college's board didn't get it, that they were expecting secular growth.

Here are the stats from the article:

Public colleges have 6.4% excess capacity, growing at about half a percentage point a year.
Private colleges have 12.4% excess capacity, growing at about triple the rate of public colleges
The smaller half of private not-for-profit colleges, those with enrollments below 1,125, have overcapacity of 28% and growing rapidly.

There is no way to manage a private college with 20 or 30% empty seats and zero tuition.

I read the article.

How on earth did you arrive at that last sentence? While I'll grant you that "zero tuition" would pose an existential threat to almost any institution (Cooper Union says that it will go back to no tuition in 2028), that was a pretty quick leap from actual data to fudge to hyperbole. That's not helping.

I'd suggest having a good long look at that quantity, "capacity".



Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 03, 2019, 05:47:13 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on December 02, 2019, 05:54:43 PM
Quote from: Hibush on December 02, 2019, 04:53:02 PM
There is no way to manage a private college with 20 or 30% empty seats and zero tuition.

I read the article.

How on earth did you arrive at that last sentence? While I'll grant you that "zero tuition" would pose an existential threat to almost any institution (Cooper Union says that it will go back to no tuition in 2028), that was a pretty quick leap from actual data to fudge to hyperbole. That's not helping.

I'd suggest having a good long look at that quantity, "capacity".

My bet is the last sentence ought to be "There is no way to manage a private college with 20 or 30% empty seats and zero net tuition revenue".

From the article:
Quote
Most Cs and Ds, a total of 675 private colleges, are so-called tuition-dependent schools—meaning they squeak by year-after-year, often losing money or eating into their dwindling endowments.Though colleges and the government provide little transparency into the financial health of schools, a significant number among our lower ranks are nearly insolvent.

Take the University of Bridgeport, a long-troubled school once controlled by Reverend Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church located on the shore of the Long Island Sound in Connecticut. The money-losing university has a full suite of academic offerings but specializes in preprofessional studies like nursing, dental hygiene, criminal justice and chiropractic studies.

The school's new president, Laura Skandera Trombley, worked wonders at Pitzer College in California from 2003 to 2015, but she may have met her match with Bridgeport. Nearly every financial ratio we track looks abysmal. University of Bridgeport ranks 895th on our list and is near the bottom of our class of D colleges. Its primary reserve ratio, for example, which measures how well a college's "expendable" assets could cover expenses without straining operations, was 0.28 according to the most recently released financial data. That translates to less than four months of liquidity, compared with say three years for Lehigh University, six years for Maine's Bowdoin College and 12 for Princeton.

Yeah, "capacity" is the key, but reducing capacity usually means firing faculty and closing buildings.  Administration and support staff don't scale as well with students.  Large institutions probably have deanlets who can be reduced with no observable effects, but that's not true at the lower end.  For example, for 600 students, Super Dinky had 3 full-time people in the registrar's office.  One retired and was not replaced as enrollment dropped to closer to 500 students.  After about a year, we had complete turnover in the registrar's office because 2 people with a couple student workers was not sufficient to carry the load and people were tired of working 80-hour weeks for the pay offered.  Three people working the financial aid office was about the minimum for even 500 students.  If you cut the admissions and fund-raising departments (places where "extra" capacity might exist in that those areas have the most people), then you've just undermined your ability to stay open through growth and donations.

Even firing faculty often has limits.  Having mostly one-to-three-person departments is not all that appealing for students who are taking their education seriously and want a variety of classes for a liberal arts model of education.  Nor does having tiny departments help for recruiting and retaining majors unless all the people in the department are very charismatic. 

The "capacity" problem is closely related to being able to teach a lot of classes that are the same as every other institution for no competitive advantage.  So, yeah, the seats exist in terms of what full-time faculty could be teaching, but students are voting with their feet for something else.

Popular pre-professional programs like nursing are hard to run on a shoestring because the break-even point for revenue is usually within a couple students of the max capacity.  Hiring more faculty to expand capacity is hard because they have many good options.  Usually, the battle is to keep enough faculty to be able to offer all the required classes to keep accreditation. 

Nursing is expensive to run; engineering is even more expensive to run and will have worse problems with attracting and retaining faculty to rural, isolated areas.  Many first-year students declare an engineering major and then end up completing in something else.  However, not having an engineering program at all means many of these small colleges will not be considered at all.  Likewise, a lack of computer science (very hard to get sufficient faculty in the rural areas) means missing out on students who are sure they want to major in CS or minor in CS along with something else that is job-focused. 

A good many prospective students are turned off by the liberal arts mantra, especially when it's clear that the institution is offering almost exclusively humanities classes along with psychology instead of the full range of human knowledge.  The students who are excited about the liberal arts have many good options and will not choose the school that simply hasn't closed yet.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 03, 2019, 08:25:19 AM
I went to a school that is in the next size tier above polly's "Super Dinky College," and faces many of the same challenges.  My alma mater is at a C+, according to the Forbes rating system.  Could be much worse, needs to be better.  They still have more or less as many students as they did in my day in the late 1980s, but are now sitting on a much more built-up and expensive campus.  The debt they accumulated in building all those shiny buildings and swanky dorms surely isn't helping.  At least it doesn't appear to be crushing them. 

My mother, who still lives nearby after retiring from teaching there several years ago, has noted signs of retrenchment in things like more economical alumni and retiree events.  They haven't all but eliminated their traditional liberal arts like many have--their modern language department is actually still larger than it was back then--but they're sure pared them back.  A student would not be able to get the same liberal arts education there now that I got.

They're in a small town, in what most urbanites would consider an "isolated" region, though it's not as small and isolated as some.  Then again, there isn't a whole lot of competition in the region.  They also still have a viable "brand" in their association with a religious denomination that hasn't yet suffered a serious demographic decline.  They're almost certainly becoming far less selective.  During her last years there Mom noticed a significant decline in the quality of incoming students, though much of that was probably due to the general decline in college readiness in American students.  Judging from their current course offerings, they still offer some things you can't get just anywhere, and haven't been quite as bad to chase fads as some schools have been.

So I guess at this point Alma Mater could go either way.  It's not obviously doomed like so many little schools now seem to be, but it's going to have a real struggle to adapt.  What it adapts into is likely to be something very different from what it once was, and maybe not in a good way.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 03, 2019, 08:29:03 AM
Question:  How did Vermont come to have so many colleges in the first place?  They're remarkably thick on the ground for such a small state with no major cities.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on December 03, 2019, 11:39:06 AM
The Forbes article is fascinating. Just today Jacksonville University (FL) announced they will no longer field a football team. They are at the absolute bottom of the Forbes metric with a low D. I somehow doubt those two facts are a coincidence.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 03, 2019, 12:53:48 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on December 03, 2019, 11:39:06 AM
The Forbes article is fascinating. Just today Jacksonville University (FL) announced they will no longer field a football team. They are at the absolute bottom of the Forbes metric with a low D. I somehow doubt those two facts are a coincidence.

If I'm reading the news right, they've only had a football team since 1998.  That suggests that they haven't been at it long enough to have much alumni emotional investment in the football program.  I wonder whether desperate colleges shutting down their football programs will become something of a trend? 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on December 03, 2019, 01:39:18 PM
Quote from: spork on December 02, 2019, 01:43:15 PM
The Evergreen State College lost 40% of its enrollment over the last decade:

https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/education/article237591209.html (https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/education/article237591209.html).

No loss there.  This is what happens when a school believes its primary purpose is to serve as a device to bring about social justice, instead of focusing on teaching and scholarship.

Maybe they can take Oberlin with them on their way down the drain. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on December 03, 2019, 01:49:05 PM
Quote...when a school believes its primary purpose is to serve as a device to bring about social justice, instead of focusing on teaching and scholarship.....

Does that have to be a polarized either/or situation?

Wouldn't a good place do both?

M. (puzzled)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on December 03, 2019, 02:39:49 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 03, 2019, 01:39:18 PM
Quote from: spork on December 02, 2019, 01:43:15 PM
The Evergreen State College lost 40% of its enrollment over the last decade:

https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/education/article237591209.html (https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/education/article237591209.html).

No loss there.  This is what happens when a school believes its primary purpose is to serve as a device to bring about social justice, instead of focusing on teaching and scholarship.

Maybe they can take Oberlin with them on their way down the drain.

This is just uncalled for. I'm guessing you know very little about either of these institutions other than what is parodied in the right wing press.

Oberlin has had a social justice mission since it's founding in 1833, when it was the first to admit black students (and served as a stop on the underground railroad), and shortly thereafter, the first to be fully co-ed. Maybe you disapprove of that mission, but it is no less appropriate as part of the mission for a college then the religious missions I'm guessing you approve of at many colleges. It provides a very rigorous academic environment-- there is no trade-off here. And Oberlin grads do just fine, thank you very much. You will find many among your faculty colleagues in fact.

Evergreen is very alternative, and not personally my cup of tea, but it serves the needs of students who would not thrive in a traditional college environment-- not just the students you are no doubt picturing, but also e.g., lots of veterans, nontraditional age students, etc.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on December 03, 2019, 02:59:42 PM
Quote from: Puget on December 03, 2019, 02:39:49 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 03, 2019, 01:39:18 PM
Quote from: spork on December 02, 2019, 01:43:15 PM
The Evergreen State College lost 40% of its enrollment over the last decade:

https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/education/article237591209.html (https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/education/article237591209.html).

No loss there.  This is what happens when a school believes its primary purpose is to serve as a device to bring about social justice, instead of focusing on teaching and scholarship.

Maybe they can take Oberlin with them on their way down the drain.

This is just uncalled for. I'm guessing you know very little about either of these institutions other than what is parodied in the right wing press.

Oberlin has had a social justice mission since it's founding in 1833, when it was the first to admit black students (and served as a stop on the underground railroad), and shortly thereafter, the first to be fully co-ed. Maybe you disapprove of that mission, but it is no less appropriate as part of the mission for a college then the religious missions I'm guessing you approve of at many colleges. It provides a very rigorous academic environment-- there is no trade-off here. And Oberlin grads do just fine, thank you very much. You will find many among your faculty colleagues in fact.

Evergreen is very alternative, and not personally my cup of tea, but it serves the needs of students who would not thrive in a traditional college environment-- not just the students you are no doubt picturing, but also e.g., lots of veterans, nontraditional age students, etc.

Tell me about that right wing press thing again.  Did you mean this?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/10/us/oberlin-bakery-lawsuit.html?action=click&module=Latest&pgtype=Homepage
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on December 03, 2019, 03:03:20 PM
Quote from: mamselle on December 03, 2019, 01:49:05 PM
Quote...when a school believes its primary purpose is to serve as a device to bring about social justice, instead of focusing on teaching and scholarship.....

Does that have to be a polarized either/or situation?

Wouldn't a good place do both?

M. (puzzled)

Theoretically, yes.  But consider for a moment this case:

A single mom, 2 kids, living on food stamps in public housing.  What about this is unfair?

To a liberal, it's unfair that anyone in the richest country in the world has to live like that.  Justice demands she be afforded better opportunities and perhaps even better outcomes.

To a conservative, it's unfair that they have to pay for the upkeep of somebody else's kids.  Justice demands their tax dollars not be devoted to this cause.

So sure, go pursue justice.  But whose?????
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 03, 2019, 04:16:10 PM
Quote from: mamselle on December 03, 2019, 01:49:05 PM
Quote...when a school believes its primary purpose is to serve as a device to bring about social justice, instead of focusing on teaching and scholarship.....

Does that have to be a polarized either/or situation?

Wouldn't a good place do both?

M. (puzzled)

The problem is that social justice ideology dictates that only certain types of scholarly questions are "appropriate". Open-ended intellectual inquiry, on the other hand, tries to be as unbiased as possible about what the results of research should suggest. You can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 04, 2019, 01:32:13 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 03, 2019, 03:03:20 PM
Quote from: mamselle on December 03, 2019, 01:49:05 PM
Quote...when a school believes its primary purpose is to serve as a device to bring about social justice, instead of focusing on teaching and scholarship.....

Does that have to be a polarized either/or situation?

Wouldn't a good place do both?

M. (puzzled)

Theoretically, yes.  But consider for a moment this case:

A single mom, 2 kids, living on food stamps in public housing.  What about this is unfair?

To a liberal, it's unfair that anyone in the richest country in the world has to live like that.  Justice demands she be afforded better opportunities and perhaps even better outcomes.

To a conservative, it's unfair that they have to pay for the upkeep of somebody else's kids.  Justice demands their tax dollars not be devoted to this cause.

So sure, go pursue justice.  But whose?????

I've always considered myself quite conservative in most respects, but I see nothing inherently unjust in spending tax dollars on helping people in poverty.  I'd like to see it not abused, certainly, or promote a dehumanizing long-term dependence on handouts that requires no responsibility of the recipient.  But the poor are always going to be with us, and will always need some help.  This sounds more like some kind of radical social darwinist libertarianism.  Which, unfortunately, has come to be what's often billed as "conservatism" today.  Genuine conservatism seems mostly absent from our political discourse anymore.

If we could get the best of what goes under the labels "liberal" and "conservative" it would be a wonderful thing.  Unfortunately all we seem to get now is the worst of both worlds.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 06, 2019, 12:22:22 PM
University of St. Thomas (Houston, TX) eliminates faculty positions in cost-cutting move:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/education/campus-chronicles/article/University-of-St-Thomas-to-layoff-faculty-14882774.php (https://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/education/campus-chronicles/article/University-of-St-Thomas-to-layoff-faculty-14882774.php).

To be fair, I will note that IRS Form 990s show that this university has been consistently in the black through FY 2018.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 06, 2019, 06:59:14 PM
Cheyney was mentioned upthread, but the whole of Pennsylvania higher ed is looking bad:
https://www.inquirer.com/business/student-debt-pennsylvania-colleges-penn-state-20191127.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Asymptotic on December 07, 2019, 12:27:06 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 06, 2019, 06:59:14 PM
Cheyney was mentioned upthread, but the whole of Pennsylvania higher ed is looking bad:
https://www.inquirer.com/business/student-debt-pennsylvania-colleges-penn-state-20191127.html

Lovely. I just took a job at one of the smaller Penn State campuses. They are definitely investing in capital projects, so either they anticipate an upswing in enrollment or they are truly delusional. I am eagerly hoping the former.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 07, 2019, 01:53:12 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 06, 2019, 06:59:14 PM
Cheyney was mentioned upthread, but the whole of Pennsylvania higher ed is looking bad:
https://www.inquirer.com/business/student-debt-pennsylvania-colleges-penn-state-20191127.html
The former state leader for higher ed said it well: the state has no plan for the role of higher education in Pennsylvania society. Accordingly, the state has little reason to fund the schools. In turn they get empty and expensive.  The vast network of schools in the parts of the state that are depopulating is untenable.

Pennsylvania really needs to come up with a radical plan for public higher education while there is still something to save.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 07, 2019, 03:30:27 PM
Quote from: Asymptotic on December 07, 2019, 12:27:06 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 06, 2019, 06:59:14 PM
Cheyney was mentioned upthread, but the whole of Pennsylvania higher ed is looking bad:
https://www.inquirer.com/business/student-debt-pennsylvania-colleges-penn-state-20191127.html

Lovely. I just took a job at one of the smaller Penn State campuses. They are definitely investing in capital projects, so either they anticipate an upswing in enrollment or they are truly delusional. I am eagerly hoping the former.

I would be doing some of my own investigation now using IPEDS and other publicly available information.  It's crummy to have to immediately start looking for a new job, but sometimes the writing is already on the wall, and the "leaders" at the institution are seriously delusional right up to the day that they have to publicly announced the institution has ceased operations as of last Friday.

For those who aren't in PA, but are still potentially concerned, if your institution is on the Dept of Education watch list (https://www.chronicle.com/article/These-Colleges-Finances-Are/244661) and has declining enrollment, and appears with a C or lower on the Forbes financial list (https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2019/11/27/dawn-of-the-dead-for-hundreds-of-the-nations-private-colleges-its-merge-or-perish/#85201c2770d7), then now's the time to start that next job search.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on December 07, 2019, 05:02:36 PM
I am a little confused by why Trinity College Dublin is on the Department of Education Watch List.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on December 07, 2019, 09:38:17 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 07, 2019, 05:02:36 PM
I am a little confused by why Trinity College Dublin is on the Department of Education Watch List.

I looked at the report mentioned in the article and poked about the website a bit. The watch list is for schools that participate in federal financial aid programs, disbursing federal loans and grants to qualified students. I found a list of schools currently participating, which included dozens of places outside the U.S.A. Schools can get on the watchlist for failure to follow certain program rules, which indicates issues with financial management. So being on the list doesn't necessarily indicate the school is broke, but finance offices who don't follow money management rules is a bad sign. If I saw my school on the list, but other indicators were positive (stable enrollment, efficient reimbursement processing, endowment use at 4%, basic supplies readily available, salary increases keeping pace with inflation, etc.), I would monitor without panicking. If it's just a matter of finance office goofing up, then we should come off the list in a year or two. But if I saw my school on the list and other indicators were not positive, I'd be on the job market and building my emergency fund.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 08, 2019, 01:56:58 AM
Quote from: Asymptotic on December 07, 2019, 12:27:06 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 06, 2019, 06:59:14 PM
Cheyney was mentioned upthread, but the whole of Pennsylvania higher ed is looking bad:
https://www.inquirer.com/business/student-debt-pennsylvania-colleges-penn-state-20191127.html

Lovely. I just took a job at one of the smaller Penn State campuses. They are definitely investing in capital projects, so either they anticipate an upswing in enrollment or they are truly delusional. I am eagerly hoping the former.

The latter.

I might have posted this previously on this thread, but I can't remember for sure (maybe I linked to it on the old CHE fora): http://activelearningps.com/2013/10/27/our-building-are-empty-but-they-are-new-and-shiny/ (http://activelearningps.com/2013/10/27/our-building-are-empty-but-they-are-new-and-shiny/).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 08, 2019, 06:57:16 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 07, 2019, 05:02:36 PM
I am a little confused by why Trinity College Dublin is on the Department of Education Watch List.

My bet is study abroad partner programs for the dozens of foreign schools on the list.  As Vkw10 wrote, those decent schools probably didn't follow all the US rules, including sending in specific reports in a timely manner.  Missing the deadline by one day is a way to get on the list and there have been a few huge state systems that ended up on the list for that reason.

Vkw10 is correct if the only problem is someone didn't press send for an IPEDS submission (there are no extensions granted ever, even if your entire state is under 6 feet of water and has had no power for the week leading up to the deadline), then just keep an eye on it.  If, though, the supply closet is always short and multiple programs are being closed due to lack of enrollment, then now is the time to polish that CV and get back on the job search horse.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on December 09, 2019, 04:33:34 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 03, 2019, 01:39:18 PM
Quote from: spork on December 02, 2019, 01:43:15 PM
The Evergreen State College lost 40% of its enrollment over the last decade:

https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/education/article237591209.html (https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/education/article237591209.html).

No loss there.  This is what happens when a school believes its primary purpose is to serve as a device to bring about social justice, instead of focusing on teaching and scholarship.

Maybe they can take Oberlin with them on their way down the drain.

Evergreen still takes its primary goal to be education. It is just particularly "woke."

Just about every Catholic school is explicit about having a social justice mission. Take Notre Dame:
Quotethe University seeks to cultivate in its students not only an appreciation for the great achievements of human beings, but also a disciplined sensibility to the poverty, injustice, and oppression that burden the lives of so many. The aim is to create a sense of human solidarity and concern for the common good that will bear fruit as learning becomes service to justice.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 12, 2019, 07:08:51 PM
https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/12/12/wesley-college-asks-state-funding
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 12, 2019, 07:19:55 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 12, 2019, 07:08:51 PM
https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/12/12/wesley-college-asks-state-funding

I'll post the same thing I did on IHE:

I hope DE helps Wesley.  Private school or not, let's keep our system of high ed from sustaining any further damage if we can.  We all stand to win or lose.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 13, 2019, 03:15:49 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 12, 2019, 07:19:55 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 12, 2019, 07:08:51 PM
https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/12/12/wesley-college-asks-state-funding

I'll post the same thing I did on IHE:

I hope DE helps Wesley.  Private school or not, let's keep our system of high ed from sustaining any further damage if we can.  We all stand to win or lose.

I am not familiar with Wesley, but it looks to me like state money would be better spent defraying the costs of attending state university campuses.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 13, 2019, 06:00:08 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 12, 2019, 07:19:55 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 12, 2019, 07:08:51 PM
https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/12/12/wesley-college-asks-state-funding

I'll post the same thing I did on IHE:

I hope DE helps Wesley.  Private school or not, let's keep our system of high ed from sustaining any further damage if we can.  We all stand to win or lose.

I strongly disagree that the best way to spend higher ed resources is to prop up everything instead of making the conscious choice to gracefully close some institutions and redirect the resources elsewhere.  Yes, having small schools available in the higher ed landscape is important, but keeping every single one that we currently have is akin to hoarding and will have similar overall results.

Nothing about Wesley stands out as being just an unfortunate year with a one-time blip.  An article this year in the college newspaper states that enrollment is down over the past five years to the point that they closed two dorms.  Faculty have not had raises in years and benefits have been cut.  Positions have been removed and programs have been discontinued.  Long-timers and administrators keep combating rumors that the institution is going to close or be bought out. (http://www.whetstone.wesley.edu/2019/04/18/students-look-for-answers-as-administrators-work-to-shut-down-rumors-about-wesleys-financial-woes/)

The college newspaper was alarmed enough about fall 2019 enrollment (under 1000 total students) to write a six-part series.  The first two parts have been published.  Students who have noticed that classes are tiny with even first-year classes having only 8 or 9 students and faculty have been asked to teach fewer classes (http://www.whetstone.wesley.edu/2019/11/09/wesleys-low-enrollment-worries-students-and-faculty/).  Students point out that Wesley is expensive for what they get; staff point to retention initiatives that look a lot like community college support that don't scale well at small institutions and claim they will be recruiting in different places in an effort to get more students who can afford to come. (http://www.whetstone.wesley.edu/2019/11/19/wesley-adjusts-to-new-generation-of-student-to-raise-enrollment-and-retention/)

According to College Scorecard, Wesley has:

* a 50% first-to-second year retention rate
* a 30% 8-year graduation rate at an average cost of $24k/year and 56% of students are Pell eligible 
* of the 30% who graduate, 85% have loans averaging $30k
* of the top 10 fields of study, only one (radio, television, and digital communication) is not offered practically everywhere.

32 institutions of higher education exist within 50 miles of Wesley College according to College Scorecard.  While College Scorecard does not discriminate between 4-year, 2-year, and speciality institutions, Delaware is a pretty small state and some community colleges are within the radius. 

If the goal is to help struggling students get a better education, then putting the extra millions Wesley has requested into the community college system looks like a better use of resources than sending another couple million to Wesley.  For example, Delaware Technical Community College is in Dover (the same city as Wesley), has a couple thousand students, and has costs to the in-state student of under $5k/year.  Salem Community College, within the 50 mile radius in NJ, has about 1000 students with costs to the student of under $7k/year.  Lincoln University (a HCBU that might serve well the 43% of Wesley's enrollment that is African American) is within the 50 mile radius, so that spending money to send students there might be a good choice.

We will all lose if we continue to divert resources to keeping everything just as it is instead of mindfully putting enough resources in fewer places to achieve the goals.  Higher ed is not the only need in our society and therefore must be better about allocating limited resources.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on December 13, 2019, 07:18:30 AM
Thanks much for that last succinct observation, which I need to take to heart on a smaller scale in thinking about the mission sprawl in my own work.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 13, 2019, 09:36:45 AM
Bethel University (MN): http://www.startribune.com/declining-enrollment-prompts-staff-budget-cuts-at-bethel-university/566126311/ (http://www.startribune.com/declining-enrollment-prompts-staff-budget-cuts-at-bethel-university/566126311/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 13, 2019, 10:00:25 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 13, 2019, 06:00:08 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 12, 2019, 07:19:55 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 12, 2019, 07:08:51 PM
https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/12/12/wesley-college-asks-state-funding

32 institutions of higher education exist within 50 miles of Wesley College according to College Scorecard.  While College Scorecard does not discriminate between 4-year, 2-year, and speciality institutions, Delaware is a pretty small state and some community colleges are within the radius. 

If the goal is to help struggling students get a better education, then putting the extra millions Wesley has requested into the community college system looks like a better use of resources than sending another couple million to Wesley.  For example, Delaware Technical Community College is in Dover (the same city as Wesley), has a couple thousand students, and has costs to the in-state student of under $5k/year.  Salem Community College, within the 50 mile radius in NJ, has about 1000 students with costs to the student of under $7k/year.  Lincoln University (a HCBU that might serve well the 43% of Wesley's enrollment that is African American) is within the 50 mile radius, so that spending money to send students there might be a good choice.

Delaware State Univ, also in Dover, has about 5,000 students and enrollment is on a steady increasing trajectory. Also HBCU, so an even stronger draw than Lincoln for Delaware AA residents. Cost is reasonable, distinctive offerings strong, retention solid. Those are signals that additional investment will have worthwhile returns.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 13, 2019, 10:16:02 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 13, 2019, 06:00:08 AM

I strongly disagree that the best way to spend higher ed resources is to prop up everything instead of making the conscious choice to gracefully close some institutions and redirect the resources elsewhere. 

Higher ed is not the only need in our society and therefore must be better about allocating limited resources.

Fair enough.  And I will easily concede that your comments make a great deal of practical economic sense.

But I will also post what I have before, and that is that someday historians, economists, educators, philosophers, novelists, and politicians will be examining about our era, and I imagine a perennial question: 'How did one of the most educated, wealthy, and democratic societies in history come to value education so little that it allowed its system to deteriorate?' 

A tad idealistic, perhaps, and admittedly conjectural but I suspect true.

We will be the generation which allowed our educational systems to stumble or even fall because of a business and politics and social class resentments. 

The bigger question is how far will we allow it to go?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Bede the Vulnerable on December 13, 2019, 10:56:59 AM
What Wahoo said.

Half an hour ago I received a text from a good friend from grad school days.  His wife's LAC informed the faculty this morning that it is killing its English Department.  She's out. 

When is a college not a college?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 13, 2019, 01:13:54 PM
Quote from: Bede the Vulnerable on December 13, 2019, 10:56:59 AM
What Wahoo said.

Half an hour ago I received a text from a good friend from grad school days.  His wife's LAC informed the faculty this morning that it is killing its English Department.  She's out. 

When is a college not a college?

Name of the college? This kind of thing usually happens when there are financial problems. I don't know of any college flush with cash that would kill off a department like English.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: stemer on December 13, 2019, 03:59:41 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 13, 2019, 10:16:02 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 13, 2019, 06:00:08 AM

I strongly disagree that the best way to spend higher ed resources is to prop up everything instead of making the conscious choice to gracefully close some institutions and redirect the resources elsewhere. 

Higher ed is not the only need in our society and therefore must be better about allocating limited resources.

<snip>

But I will also post what I have before, and that is that someday historians, economists, educators, philosophers, novelists, and politicians will be examining about our era, and I imagine a perennial question: 'How did one of the most educated, wealthy, and democratic societies in history come to value education so little that it allowed its system to deteriorate?' 

<snip
It did not deteriorate, it self-corrected.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 13, 2019, 04:28:32 PM
Quote from: stemer on December 13, 2019, 03:59:41 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 13, 2019, 10:16:02 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 13, 2019, 06:00:08 AM

I strongly disagree that the best way to spend higher ed resources is to prop up everything instead of making the conscious choice to gracefully close some institutions and redirect the resources elsewhere. 

Higher ed is not the only need in our society and therefore must be better about allocating limited resources.

<snip>

But I will also post what I have before, and that is that someday historians, economists, educators, philosophers, novelists, and politicians will be examining about our era, and I imagine a perennial question: 'How did one of the most educated, wealthy, and democratic societies in history come to value education so little that it allowed its system to deteriorate?' 

<snip
It did not deteriorate, it self-corrected.

Describing the closure of colleges, which is a wrenching event for the local and alumni communities affected, as a market self-correction sounds rather callous.  That said, it is true that quite a few institutions seem to have lost whatever distinctive educational mission they once had.  When a region--especially in a time of demographic decline--is thickly populated with such no-longer-distinctive schools, it does seem only to be expected that some will end up closing.  Much as I hate seeing SLACs close in principle--I know how I'd feel if it ever happened to my alma mater--some of these closings probably aren't such a terrible loss in the great scheme of things. 

What is a matter of concern is the way so many states have defunded higher education in recent years.  Even here, though, some retrenchment is surely unavoidable, given changes in demographics and the needs and perceived needs of the workforce.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 13, 2019, 04:48:37 PM
Quote from: stemer on December 13, 2019, 03:59:41 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 13, 2019, 10:16:02 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 13, 2019, 06:00:08 AM

I strongly disagree that the best way to spend higher ed resources is to prop up everything instead of making the conscious choice to gracefully close some institutions and redirect the resources elsewhere. 

Higher ed is not the only need in our society and therefore must be better about allocating limited resources.

<snip>

But I will also post what I have before, and that is that someday historians, economists, educators, philosophers, novelists, and politicians will be examining about our era, and I imagine a perennial question: 'How did one of the most educated, wealthy, and democratic societies in history come to value education so little that it allowed its system to deteriorate?' 

<snip
It did not deteriorate, it self-corrected.

Perhaps. 

But semantics are largely pointless.

We are losing schools and departments and jobs and tenure and endangering whatever preeminence we might have. 

Wordplay however you want, it is still the dismantling / attenuation / dissolution /  devolving / deterioration / etc. of our higher ed system.  Every school we lose is an impoverishment. 

Look at any part of the world in which education is not a significant component.  Whatever else goes on in society, education is a social good.  Why we treat it as if it is expendable I cannot understand.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on December 13, 2019, 04:57:08 PM
I think sometimes there's a weird sort of cycle in which good is presented as bad, and bad, good.

At the moment, it seems as if the "social good" of education is being viewed as bad: elitist, arcane, boring, manipulative, and diabolically jesuitical.

The current "virtues" include ignorance (miscast as innocence), feral cunning, inventive savantism, and a kind of Rousseavian untutored savagery, paraded as " honesty."

Succinct phrases that right those beliefs are very necessary for the survival of logic and literacy.

We will all become the books we represent in Bradbury's hobo forest.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Bede the Vulnerable on December 14, 2019, 02:16:23 AM
Quote from: spork on December 13, 2019, 01:13:54 PM
Quote from: Bede the Vulnerable on December 13, 2019, 10:56:59 AM
What Wahoo said.

Half an hour ago I received a text from a good friend from grad school days.  His wife's LAC informed the faculty this morning that it is killing its English Department.  She's out. 

When is a college not a college?

Name of the college? This kind of thing usually happens when there are financial problems. I don't know of any college flush with cash that would kill off a department like English.

I'll post the name of the college when this is officially announced.  But it's a small, religiously-affiliated college in the rural Midwest.  So you're exactly right:  It's a matter of finances. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: inthestacks on December 14, 2019, 03:54:07 AM
Mills College to Sell Shakespeare First Folio, Mozart Manuscript Amid Budget Woes

https://www.kqed.org/arts/13871311/mills-college-to-sell-shakespeare-first-folio-mozart-manuscript-amid-budget-woes (https://www.kqed.org/arts/13871311/mills-college-to-sell-shakespeare-first-folio-mozart-manuscript-amid-budget-woes)

This seems incredibly short-sighted and a good way to alienate donors. (Among many others!)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 14, 2019, 04:33:11 AM
Quote from: inthestacks on December 14, 2019, 03:54:07 AM
Mills College to Sell Shakespeare First Folio, Mozart Manuscript Amid Budget Woes

https://www.kqed.org/arts/13871311/mills-college-to-sell-shakespeare-first-folio-mozart-manuscript-amid-budget-woes (https://www.kqed.org/arts/13871311/mills-college-to-sell-shakespeare-first-folio-mozart-manuscript-amid-budget-woes)

This seems incredibly short-sighted and a good way to alienate donors. (Among many others!)

They may be concerned about the fate of those documents in the event they have to close the library entirely. Better to place them with a reliable steward and get some operating funds. They have already gotten rid of most tt music faculty, to give an idea of how bad things are.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 14, 2019, 04:48:51 AM
Quote from: inthestacks on December 14, 2019, 03:54:07 AM
Mills College to Sell Shakespeare First Folio, Mozart Manuscript Amid Budget Woes

https://www.kqed.org/arts/13871311/mills-college-to-sell-shakespeare-first-folio-mozart-manuscript-amid-budget-woes (https://www.kqed.org/arts/13871311/mills-college-to-sell-shakespeare-first-folio-mozart-manuscript-amid-budget-woes)

This seems incredibly short-sighted and a good way to alienate donors. (Among many others!)

Donors? What donors? Mills has been in a death spiral for several years (http://activelearningps.com/2017/07/24/mills-college-when-the-bus-leaves-the-station-and-youre-not-on-it/).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 14, 2019, 04:56:09 AM
Quote from: spork on December 14, 2019, 04:48:51 AM
Quote from: inthestacks on December 14, 2019, 03:54:07 AM
Mills College to Sell Shakespeare First Folio, Mozart Manuscript Amid Budget Woes

https://www.kqed.org/arts/13871311/mills-college-to-sell-shakespeare-first-folio-mozart-manuscript-amid-budget-woes (https://www.kqed.org/arts/13871311/mills-college-to-sell-shakespeare-first-folio-mozart-manuscript-amid-budget-woes)

This seems incredibly short-sighted and a good way to alienate donors. (Among many others!)

Donors? What donors? Mills has been in a death spiral for several years (http://activelearningps.com/2017/07/24/mills-college-when-the-bus-leaves-the-station-and-youre-not-on-it/).
I agree with Spork's incredulousness.

From everything we've seen on this thread and its predecessor, Mills is at the decision point of gracefully closing or doing all the very short-sighted actions that pay the bills today, but contribute to closing of the institution in the longer run.

A 2017 IHE article on Mills declaring financial emergency indicated an endowment of $177M with an annual budget of $57M, but a gap of $9M  (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/05/17/mills-college-declares-financial-emergency-and-plans-layoffs-and-curricular-reform).  As for alienating donors, nothing on Mills' website indicate that they have many donors able to donate at the millionish dollar level.  Instead, I see a gift recognition structure much like Super Dinky's that has $1500 in a single year as worthy of recognition and a top level of $25k+. (https://www.mills.edu/giving-to-mills/honoring-your-support/gift-societies.php)  In contrast, University of Southern California has the Widney Society for donors of $1M or more (https://giving.usc.edu/widney-society/) with a USC associates structure that lists first the Chairman level of $300k over 5 years and an annual contribution of $3k down to a junior level of $25k spread over 5 years and an annual gift of $250 (https://giving.usc.edu/membership-levels-2/)

If Mills were regularly getting gifts in the million dollar range, then their recognition structure would look more like USC's.  One thing that kills smaller, niche schools financially in the long run is having relatively few alumni (can't have many total alumni at 100-200 graduates per year) and having a very small fraction of the alumni making upper-middle class money to be able to give generously (hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of five years) to their alma mater. 

So, yes, it seems short-sighted to sell this fabulous piece of human knowledge that has research value as well as monetary value.  However, in terms of supporting the student body as a whole, one research item that few students will use during their time and for which scholars will not be paying big entrance fees to use is not nearly as useful as the money to pay excellent professors or keep the rest of the library functional.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: stemer on December 14, 2019, 03:17:27 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 13, 2019, 04:48:37 PM
Quote from: stemer on December 13, 2019, 03:59:41 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 13, 2019, 10:16:02 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 13, 2019, 06:00:08 AM

I strongly disagree that the best way to spend higher ed resources is to prop up everything instead of making the conscious choice to gracefully close some institutions and redirect the resources elsewhere. 

Higher ed is not the only need in our society and therefore must be better about allocating limited resources.

<snip>

But I will also post what I have before, and that is that someday historians, economists, educators, philosophers, novelists, and politicians will be examining about our era, and I imagine a perennial question: 'How did one of the most educated, wealthy, and democratic societies in history come to value education so little that it allowed its system to deteriorate?' 

<snip
It did not deteriorate, it self-corrected.

Perhaps. 

But semantics are largely pointless.

We are losing schools and departments and jobs and tenure and endangering whatever preeminence we might have. 

Wordplay however you want, it is still the dismantling / attenuation / dissolution /  devolving / deterioration / etc. of our higher ed system.  Every school we lose is an impoverishment. 

Look at any part of the world in which education is not a significant component.  Whatever else goes on in society, education is a social good.  Why we treat it as if it is expendable I cannot understand.
It is not wordplay or semantics.

I fully appreciate the impact these closings have to our profession, our colleagues and to society at large.  But we (us, the faculty) have also been part of a system that has allowed the number of insitutions to become unreasonably high while being complicit to the borderline criminal practice of saddling our students and their families with crushing debt. 

I am very afraid that this higher-ed imposion is the societal "payback time" for an educational system that became unncessarilly expensive by allowing institutions to become top-heavy spas rather than academic establishments. This is the effect of the administrative bloat, having on-campus climbing walls and the hi-tech dorms to just get students to apply.

I am not sure that the notion of what you refer as 'expendable' is suitable here. Call it "market forces", "survival of the fittest", "supply and demand" or whatever, the bubble is popping.  Unfortunately, we are all emotionally affected by the imposion because the pain is felt most in the smaller, weaker and tuition-driven institutions, the HBCs, the SLACs that thought they could follow the well-endowed places. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: stemer on December 14, 2019, 03:37:09 PM
Quote from: apl68 on December 13, 2019, 04:28:32 PM
Quote from: stemer on December 13, 2019, 03:59:41 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 13, 2019, 10:16:02 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 13, 2019, 06:00:08 AM

I strongly disagree that the best way to spend higher ed resources is to prop up everything instead of making the conscious choice to gracefully close some institutions and redirect the resources elsewhere. 

Higher ed is not the only need in our society and therefore must be better about allocating limited resources.

<snip>

But I will also post what I have before, and that is that someday historians, economists, educators, philosophers, novelists, and politicians will be examining about our era, and I imagine a perennial question: 'How did one of the most educated, wealthy, and democratic societies in history come to value education so little that it allowed its system to deteriorate?' 

<snip
It did not deteriorate, it self-corrected.

Describing the closure of colleges, which is a wrenching event for the local and alumni communities affected, as a market self-correction sounds rather callous.  That said, it is true that quite a few institutions seem to have lost whatever distinctive educational mission they once had.  When a region--especially in a time of demographic decline--is thickly populated with such no-longer-distinctive schools, it does seem only to be expected that some will end up closing.  Much as I hate seeing SLACs close in principle--I know how I'd feel if it ever happened to my alma mater--some of these closings probably aren't such a terrible loss in the great scheme of things. 

What is a matter of concern is the way so many states have defunded higher education in recent years.  Even here, though, some retrenchment is surely unavoidable, given changes in demographics and the needs and perceived needs of the workforce.
I am sorry if you found my description ("self correcting") of what you describe as "deterioration" to be callous. But I will ask you a variation of your question: 'How did one of the most educated, wealthy, and democratic societies in history turned college to a luxury good that forced generations of students and their families into crushing debt?

I think I know the answer: "it was all the evil adminstrators' fault, faculty were the underpaid innocent bystanders". Sorry, apl68, we are all accessories to this debackle, no matter how much we (the faculty) want to shed off any responsibility.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 14, 2019, 04:18:38 PM
Quote from: stemer on December 14, 2019, 03:17:27 PM
But we (us, the faculty) have also been part of a system that has allowed the number of insitutions to become unreasonably high while being complicit to the borderline criminal practice of saddling our students and their families with crushing debt. 

The majority of American institutions of higher education were founded in the 19th century and then responded to societal needs, such as the G.I. Bill and the population explosion of the Boomer generation, by expanding and opening satellite campuses.  The CC system responded to the need or professional education in the 1920s.  The current sitting faculty had almost nothing to do with the "unreasonably high" number of schools in the U.S.  WTF are you even talking about?!

The cost of education has steadily risen because of increasing costs of technology, increased costs of operations, and general C.o.L.  Tuition has risen because of dwindling state support in the face of these factors.  Colleges have been cutting every corner they could, largely by slicing the professorate into a mash of paraprofessionals, many of whom have not seen a raise in 20 years.

Quote from: stemer on December 14, 2019, 03:17:27 PM
I am very afraid that this higher-ed imposion is the societal "payback time" for an educational system that became unncessarilly expensive by allowing institutions to become top-heavy spas rather than academic establishments.

I highly doubt that you are an academic.  If you are then you have taught in schools which are radically different from the ones I am familiar with. 

Quote from: stemer on December 14, 2019, 03:17:27 PM
This is the effect of the administrative bloat, having on-campus climbing walls and the hi-tech dorms to just get students to apply.

Not where I work.  Not at most places I've seen.  Do you know what you are posting about?

Quote from: stemer on December 14, 2019, 03:17:27 PM
I am not sure that the notion of what you refer as 'expendable' is suitable here. Call it "market forces", "survival of the fittest", "supply and demand" or whatever, the bubble is popping.  Unfortunately, we are all emotionally affected by the imposion because the pain is felt most in the smaller, weaker and tuition-driven institutions, the HBCs, the SLACs that thought they could follow the well-endowed places.

I think we know all this.  What I and others suggest is that education has a much bigger mission than than can be encapsulated in terms appropriate for business.  We all stand to lose if our higher ed system buckles----and yes, if one has a dull wingnut brain made entirely of money, this includes the economy and forces such medical and engineering research (which generally appeal to money-brained individuals).

So I am pretty sure you are not an academic but simply someone who has swallowed the party line and has come here to froth.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 15, 2019, 06:39:43 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 14, 2019, 04:18:38 PM
So I am pretty sure you are not an academic but simply someone who has swallowed the party line and has come here to froth.

I disagree because the diversity of institutions across the entire US higher ed sector is such that people can have been at several institutions and never been at the truly struggling.  I was heavily involved with teaching professional societies that had state sections with monthly or biannual face-to-face meetings hosted by faculty's home institution.

On paper, some of those institutions were very similar to Super Dinky.  Yet, visiting the campuses brought out some huge discrepancies.  Super Dinky was resource-strapped and showed it literally everywhere on campus.  Even the nice, most recently renovated buildings were not nearly as nice as the other small institutions that were similar size and I knew had similar financial troubles due to reading the accreditors reports including probation notices and knowing the Department of Education's current list.  Other institutions had more modern facilities that didn't come up to the lazy river extravagance, but were far nicer (ooh, look a couple exercise bikes and free weights) than our gym at which one could sometimes check out a basketball and that's about it.  Those other institutions had multiple places on campus at which one could eat, not one cafeteria line with a main dish and a handful of sides or a sandwich option.

We used to end up sometimes at the big CC that had nicer amenities than Super Dinky, but weren't extravagant the way the amenities were at the S(elective) LAC.  However, the amenities at the state flagship were much, much better than the amenities at the regional comprehensives that were still hugely better than Super Dinky's amenities that weren't top of the line when they were first built in the mid-sixties since the regional comprehensives had had updates in the past 20 years.

It's true that many struggling places have no frills or extra administrators to cut.  That doesn't mean that some places don't have significant frills and extra administrators that would be eliminated if the top N goals were all on academic teaching and learning.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apostrophe on December 15, 2019, 09:39:45 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 15, 2019, 06:39:43 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 14, 2019, 04:18:38 PM
So I am pretty sure you are not an academic but simply someone who has swallowed the party line and has come here to froth.

I disagree because the diversity of institutions across the entire US higher ed sector is such that people can have been at several institutions and never been at the truly struggling.  I was heavily involved with teaching professional societies that had state sections with monthly or biannual face-to-face meetings hosted by faculty's home institution.

I've seen some things, institution-wise, and doubt that anyone is completely untouched by the new realities of higher ed–but I think that's beside the point that Wahoo is criticizing. Attributing blame for complex, systematic changes on climbing walls is just lazy-river thinking.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 15, 2019, 05:35:46 PM
Quote from: apostrophe on December 15, 2019, 09:39:45 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 15, 2019, 06:39:43 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 14, 2019, 04:18:38 PM
So I am pretty sure you are not an academic but simply someone who has swallowed the party line and has come here to froth.

I disagree because the diversity of institutions across the entire US higher ed sector is such that people can have been at several institutions and never been at the truly struggling.  I was heavily involved with teaching professional societies that had state sections with monthly or biannual face-to-face meetings hosted by faculty's home institution.

I've seen some things, institution-wise, and doubt that anyone is completely untouched by the new realities of higher ed–but I think that's beside the point that Wahoo is criticizing. Attributing blame for complex, systematic changes on climbing walls is just lazy-river thinking.

Could be, but that's not the same as the assertion that someone is clearly not an academic because an individual is focusing on the details that are most vivid in their experience instead of citing details that are most vivid to someone else.

For example, I am amused every time I read the assertion that too much unnecessary administration is clearly a big contributing factor to tight budgets.  Super Dinky only had about 100 total employees at any given time and I mean total -- adjuncts, mailroom, janitorial staff, full-time faculty, president, president's secretary -- everyone drawing a paycheck at a given time came up to about 100 employees.  Thus, the idea that because some huge place like Michigan has 80 diversity staff trying to ensure they continue to be paid means everyone is overstocked on administrators when every day at Super Dinky had even the provost standing at the copier doing his own copying because there was no one else is a different kind of focus on a reality that isn't THE reality at the truly struggling institutions.

Likewise, some institutions really have overbuilt and overinvested in amenities in an effort to compete for students who have good options and will be paying (nearly) full price even at $50+k.  To ignore that situation because that's not everyone means being too narrowly focused.  Some institutions would indeed be basically OK if they scaled back on the amenities and used that scaling back as an advertisement for an excellent education in comfortable enough surroundings.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 15, 2019, 05:50:30 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 15, 2019, 05:35:46 PM
Could be, but that's not the same as the assertion that someone is clearly not an academic because an individual is focusing on the details that are most vivid in their experience instead of citing details that are most vivid to someone else.

It was the clueless and overtly politicized nature of certain poster's commentary that lead me to believe hu was not an academic, not the "details" hu focused on.

The commentary I refer to sounds like the commentary of someone who read some articles on-line and then tried to pass themselves off as an academic. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 15, 2019, 06:47:27 PM
I've been thinking about Wesley from a slightly different perspective, perhaps because of the economically stressed area I currently live in.

Certainly Wesley as an institution has a lot of room for improvement.  No argument. 

However, if the college closes it removes approximately 500 total jobs (both FT and PT, including positions at the Aramark co. which provides the food service) from Dover.  In a city of 136K, that is not a death-blow by any means...and the administrative and blue-collar workers will probably find other jobs in this economy----but still, these are incomes and tax dollars suddenly removed from a mid-sized city which would otherwise contribute to the micro-economy in the region. 

The accountants, admin assistants, grounds crew, drivers, carpenters, counselors, janitors etc. who find new employment (presumably in Dover or vicinity) will be taking jobs that someone else would get if the college remained open.  Micro-drops in the employment and economic buckets, of course, unless you are someone who needs a job just given to a former Wesley employee.

Most of the FT faculty will probably relocate somewhere somehow, although not all; one can only conjecture what will happen to the PT faculty. 

For some faculty this closure will also close their careers.  Our attitudes toward our fellow academics tend to follow the vernacular and we often lack any sort of sympathy for each other (I can't think of any industry outside, say, Hollywood which is so unsupported by its own members), and yet I, at least, feel sorry for the handful of trained specialists who may find an extremely difficult transition to gainful employment with their academic backgrounds.

I suspect most of the 15K students will find other schools----although for some this will mean the end of their education for whatever reason.  Not a big deal, really, unless you own an apartment house, bar, pizza or burger joint, supermarket, movie house, etc. in the Wesley region----no bankruptcies perhaps, but you cannot remove 500 jobs and 1,500 students without some economic impact.

And, while I doubt anyone will lose the Nobel Prize if Wesley closes (although they might, who knows?), we all know that modern research is the result of scholars across the world contributing incrementally to the knowledge base----and even if the same discovery will be made somewhere else down the road, that is somewhere else which is not performing yet more incremental research which would have been contributed at Wesley earlier in the process.

Alright, maybe all this is no match for $3M expenditure (which would be a flat refund of around $3.10 for every citizen of Delaware) but these do bear thinking about.  At least I thought so.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: stemer on December 15, 2019, 10:56:17 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 14, 2019, 04:18:38 PM
Quote from: stemer on December 14, 2019, 03:17:27 PM
But we (us, the faculty) have also been part of a system that has allowed the number of insitutions to become unreasonably high while being complicit to the borderline criminal practice of saddling our students and their families with crushing debt. 

The majority of American institutions of higher education were founded in the 19th century and then responded to societal needs, such as the G.I. Bill and the population explosion of the Boomer generation, by expanding and opening satellite campuses.  The CC system responded to the need or professional education in the 1920s.  The current sitting faculty had almost nothing to do with the "unreasonably high" number of schools in the U.S.  WTF are you even talking about?!

The cost of education has steadily risen because of increasing costs of technology, increased costs of operations, and general C.o.L.  Tuition has risen because of dwindling state support in the face of these factors.  Colleges have been cutting every corner they could, largely by slicing the professorate into a mash of paraprofessionals, many of whom have not seen a raise in 20 years.

Quote from: stemer on December 14, 2019, 03:17:27 PM
I am very afraid that this higher-ed imposion is the societal "payback time" for an educational system that became unncessarilly expensive by allowing institutions to become top-heavy spas rather than academic establishments.

I highly doubt that you are an academic.  If you are then you have taught in schools which are radically different from the ones I am familiar with. 

Quote from: stemer on December 14, 2019, 03:17:27 PM
This is the effect of the administrative bloat, having on-campus climbing walls and the hi-tech dorms to just get students to apply.

Not where I work.  Not at most places I've seen.  Do you know what you are posting about?

Quote from: stemer on December 14, 2019, 03:17:27 PM
I am not sure that the notion of what you refer as 'expendable' is suitable here. Call it "market forces", "survival of the fittest", "supply and demand" or whatever, the bubble is popping.  Unfortunately, we are all emotionally affected by the imposion because the pain is felt most in the smaller, weaker and tuition-driven institutions, the HBCs, the SLACs that thought they could follow the well-endowed places.

I think we know all this.  What I and others suggest is that education has a much bigger mission than than can be encapsulated in terms appropriate for business.  We all stand to lose if our higher ed system buckles----and yes, if one has a dull wingnut brain made entirely of money, this includes the economy and forces such medical and engineering research (which generally appeal to money-brained individuals).

So I am pretty sure you are not an academic but simply someone who has swallowed the party line and has come here to froth.

I do not appreciate your commentary, in fact, I find it crass and very low rent for my taste. Your abject failure to provide cogent counter-arguments but instead attempting to discredit me as a "non-academic" (ouch, that hurt! how will I do any of my grading now?)  indicates either limited intellectual capacity to provide a meaningful argument or perhaps some kind of academic insecurity (did you get a mail-order Ph.D.? are you working at a for-profit?) or complete inability to follow the discussion.

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 14, 2019, 04:18:38 PM
The cost of education has steadily risen because of increasing costs of technology, increased costs of operations, and general C.o.L.  Tuition has risen because of dwindling state support in the face of these factors.  Colleges have been cutting every corner they could, largely by slicing the professorate into a mash of paraprofessionals, many of whom have not seen a raise in 20 years.

You are completely misinformed. Tuition increases have surpassed and continue to surpass every year C.o.L. and wages by several multiples. The highest cost in academic budgets is not the cost of required instructional technology (which, in fact, is relatively cheap, practically a commodity) but administrative bloat, campus vanity projects (e.g. high tech dorms, libraries and sports facilities) or completely misfired program launches. There are several stories about campuses building new dorms, athletic facilities and eSports arenas while in financial free-fall. There are also several examples of SLACs in particular, starting expensive pre-professional and professional programs (e.g. engineering, nursing etc) while letting their majors in the humanities die.   

The defunding of state institutions should have -somewhat- leveled (albeit to no economic benefit to students) the playing field for the privates that would have smaller of a tuition cost gap to compete against regional state campuses. But from the closings we are seeing, this is not the case, not by a long shot. So, get your facts straight.

No kidding Sherlcok the professoriate has been underpaid and losing professional traction. When you fully catch-up wth what is going on with higher ed perhaps you can share with us what you think is the reason for the unreasonable tuition increases the last 30+ years. But I won't hold my breath.

For the rest of the nonsense you write, I will not dignify you or the the comments with an answer.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: stemer on December 15, 2019, 11:12:30 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 15, 2019, 06:39:43 AM
It's true that many struggling places have no frills or extra administrators to cut.  That doesn't mean that some places don't have significant frills and extra administrators that would be eliminated if the top N goals were all on academic teaching and learning.
I agree. So, it begs the question, have the majority of those crumbling lately been of the frugal/cut-to-the-bone/perennially stuggling category or the frills/high overhead/bad management program misfirings variety? From the reporting,my impression is that it is the latter.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 16, 2019, 04:10:02 AM
Quote from: stemer on December 15, 2019, 11:12:30 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 15, 2019, 06:39:43 AM
It's true that many struggling places have no frills or extra administrators to cut.  That doesn't mean that some places don't have significant frills and extra administrators that would be eliminated if the top N goals were all on academic teaching and learning.
I agree. So, it begs the question, have the majority of those crumbling lately been of the frugal/cut-to-the-bone/perennially stuggling category or the frills/high overhead/bad management program misfirings variety? From the reporting,my impression is that it is the latter.

One does get that impression from a lot of public commentary about the issue. But do the numbers bear that out?

Which schools that closed in the last couple of years fit into the latter category?

Here is my impression of where the greatest stress is.

The highest overhead comes from having half the design enrollment, which doubles the overhead for facilities and administration, and substantially increases the cost of instruction because class sizes are smaller. Lots of rural schools are experiencing that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 16, 2019, 05:55:16 AM
^ Pretty much sums things up.

The only points I would add about higher ed in the USA:

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 16, 2019, 06:26:14 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 15, 2019, 06:47:27 PM
Alright, maybe all this is no match for $3M expenditure (which would be a flat refund of around $3.10 for every citizen of Delaware) but these do bear thinking about.

The problem is it's not a one-time $3M expenditure to save 500 jobs and 1500 students.  Wesley will need to be propped up every year for the foreseeable future because it's not a viable institution.  In addition, this particular $3M comes on top of two other recently granted requests that also total $3M.  Far more kind to everyone involved and a better use of the people-of-Delaware's money is to help transition all the affected people into something else with a 2-3 year graceful closure instead of just barring the doors at the end of the term at which Wesley runs out of money with perhaps a two-week notice.

Yes, it's likely to be the end of some folks' academic careers.  A large number of people in the US will lose their academic jobs in the next five to ten years.  The kindest thing to do now is acknowledge that reality and help people find something else that meets their fiscal, intellectual, and emotional needs instead of trying to prop up everything currently in the system.  There's no way to prop up the system enough so that everyone who wants an academic position in certain fields can have one.  That's what the data from the institutions that get away with paying peanuts and still having qualified people teach indicate.

If we're using data to redirect resources to ensure more access to college, then redirecting to the rural places that have literally no other local options and not good access to online options is a much better choice to preserve the system as a whole.  There's no reason for NJ to send money directly to Wyoming to prop up the outreach aspects of University of Wyoming, but that's a better use of resources to preserve higher ed in the US as a whole and save the handful of jobs that are far more impactful on their local community both on and off campus than propping up Wesley in an urban area with many similar options within an easy bus ride.

Another useful question is are the people of Delaware so well off that they wouldn't rather spend an extra $6M per year on something else like health care, K-12 education, or public transportation?  Personally, I'd much rather that everyone who can be vaccinated be vaccinated and that the buses run often enough to be useful than continue to hoard higher education institutions in places that have adequate seats for the populace.

Quote from: stemer on December 15, 2019, 11:12:30 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 15, 2019, 06:39:43 AM
It's true that many struggling places have no frills or extra administrators to cut.  That doesn't mean that some places don't have significant frills and extra administrators that would be eliminated if the top N goals were all on academic teaching and learning.
I agree. So, it begs the question, have the majority of those crumbling lately been of the frugal/cut-to-the-bone/perennially stuggling category or the frills/high overhead/bad management program misfirings variety? From the reporting,my impression is that it is the latter.

Define "crumbling". 

Hibush wrote a good list of what "crumbling" == "flat out closing" means.  In terms of student numbers, by the time most single-campus institutions flat out close, we're talking a few hundred students and often fewer than than faculty, staff, and administrators.  The only people who notice the closures are those in the community affected and those who read IHE if a notice is made there (often they won't be).  Education Dive has a list of college closures/consolidations since 2016 at https://www.educationdive.com/news/tracker-college-and-university-closings-and-consolidation/539961/.  Many of those institutions on the list didn't make the general national news.

If "crumbling" means "cutting a bunch of underenrolled majors with concomitant firing/non-renewal of faculty", then, sure, there are plenty of reports of institutions that could have cut something else and kept academic programs afloat for a while longer.  Often, those cuts will make the national news for certain outlets that are again outraged that someone somewhere is "dismantling the university" instead of a more neutral observation of making a purposeful choice to stop doing something that isn't working.  It's true that sometimes a different choice years earlier would have resulted in not closing a given program. 

It's also true that what's near and dear to some hearts is pretty clearly not being selected by enough students at the given price at a given institution that includes not just money, but also a personal investment of time and effort.  Nationally, trends in majors have shifted significantly in the past decade even, let alone from decades ago, when many faculty members were hired. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/06/05/analysis-finds-significant-drop-humanities-majors-gains-liberal-arts-degrees)  At individual institutions, the effect can be so dramatic that what makes the news is 40% of academic programs are cut, but people will hand wave away that those cuts only affect 6% of the students because the outrage is really about the change in mission. (https://www.city-journal.org/university-of-tulsa)

Wahoo's comments about the national higher ed landscape often are a cri de coeur regarding the changes in what a college education, let alone a university education, means.  However, for those of us who came up already under some other type of education and have a college degree, that insistence that the world will end if many more people are like us than like the people making the cri de coeur tends to not have the desired rhetorical affect.  That affect accelerates every year as more and more faculty members, let alone administrators and community stakeholders, have an education that doesn't draw heavily on the liberal arts model of 1/3 major, 1/3 general education, and 1/3 free electives to explore the whole of human knowledge.

Our critical thinking skills indicate that change has already occurred.  The question is whether people are going to make the painful trade-offs to deal with current reality or insist on waiting until reality does the much, much more painful later correction because there are no choices once the money is all gone.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 16, 2019, 06:31:31 AM
I also would point out that, should Wesley fold, Dover (and its regents) would be left with 50 acres and 20 buildings to re-purpose or let fall derelict. 

Again, I don't want to be melodramatic about the scenario, but I currently live in a part of the world where a closed hospital campus, closed factories, and vacant strip-malls are now large 'brown spaces' and fire hazards in the landscape.  These do nothing good for anyone.

Perhaps Dover could convert the Wesley campus into a business park or simply demolish the remaining buildings, both of which are expensive undertakings, or DE could rally to save the college.

It is impossible to know if 5 years down the line Wesley will finally funnel down the drain or, conversely, if 100 years from now the great-great-great-grandchild of a Wesley alumni will walk across the stage, accept hu's degree, and then board Space-X's next rocket to the Mars colony----and this period of instability will be a couple of news articles in Wesley's digital archives.

Oh, and stemer, see Hibush's commentary for why you sound like a troll who has read a few things on-line.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 16, 2019, 07:05:02 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 16, 2019, 06:26:14 AM
The problem is it's not a one-time $3M expenditure to save 500 jobs and 1500 students.  Wesley will need to be propped up every year for the foreseeable future because it's not a viable institution.  In addition, this particular $3M comes on top of two other recently granted requests that also total $3M. 

I get it, Polly, I really do.  And I know I am being idealistic, particularly with other people's money.

But I am also talking about something bigger in culture which I think we might also think about.

The Kingdome cost $67M in 1976 (the Internet claims that's $295M in today's dollars) for a sports pavilion which lasted 24 years before it was demolished.  The Washington Post claims Clinton raised $1.4B and Trump raised $957.6M or their respective campaigns---the total price tag for 2016 all combined campaigns was, according to WaPo, $6.5B.  Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides reportedly cost Disney $379M to make.

It's not that America can't pony-up.  It's what we think is worth ponying for that I am talking about. 

Despite your typical and predictable digs at the lib arts (and a strangely classist [?] comment about education which I am not sure quite made sense), education is worth the passionate appeal----which we need many more of.

Quote from: polly_mer on December 16, 2019, 06:26:14 AM
Far more kind to everyone involved and a better use of the people-of-Delaware's money is to help transition all the affected people into something else with a 2-3 year graceful closure instead of just barring the doors at the end of the term at which Wesley runs out of money with perhaps a two-week notice.

Yes, it's likely to be the end of some folks' academic careers.  A large number of people in the US will lose their academic jobs in the next five to ten years.  The kindest thing to do now is acknowledge that reality and help people find something else that meets their fiscal, intellectual, and emotional needs... 

Sounds good on paper.

Do we have any realistic way to do this?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on December 16, 2019, 10:24:10 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 16, 2019, 06:26:14 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 15, 2019, 06:47:27 PM
Alright, maybe all this is no match for $3M expenditure (which would be a flat refund of around $3.10 for every citizen of Delaware) but these do bear thinking about.

Yes, it's likely to be the end of some folks' academic careers.  A large number of people in the US will lose their academic jobs in the next five to ten years.  The kindest thing to do now is acknowledge that reality and help people find something else that meets their fiscal, intellectual, and emotional needs instead of trying to prop up everything currently in the system.  There's no way to prop up the system enough so that everyone who wants an academic position in certain fields can have one.  That's what the data from the institutions that get away with paying peanuts and still having qualified people teach indicate.

A common mistake is to stay on a sinking ship too long.

"What will I do if I leave?"

"How can I get another academic job?"

The academic job is gone. If you wait too long to switch, you won't find a good nonacademic job either.

Age discrimination is maybe the closest thing there is to an iron law of hiring. It's about the only constant in a changing world. As technology eats the world, age discrimination gets worse. The most humane solution is to offer free training to academics losing their jobs and then help them find a new job as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 16, 2019, 11:40:06 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 16, 2019, 07:05:02 AM
I know I am being idealistic, particularly with other people's money.

But I am also talking about something bigger in culture which I think we might also think about.


Thanks so much for chiming in on this thread with some rooting for these colleges. The discussion can drift into morbidly watching the death throes from afar.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 16, 2019, 12:14:25 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 16, 2019, 07:05:02 AM

[. . .]

Do we have any realistic way to do this?

Don't know how realistic this might seem, but one option is to elect government officials that don't waste $2 trillion on a two-decade long unwinnable war in a faraway country.

Anyway, since I resemble Hibush's remark . . .

Summary of today's Fall 2019 Current Term Enrollment Estimates report (https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2019/12/16/college-enrollment-declines-again-its-down-more-than-two-million-students-in-this-decade/#6ae213893d95). Year to year decline of ~ 230,000 in the number of college students, and a drop of more than 2 million since the peak in 2011.

Note that the author of the Forbes article, former president of Missouri State, recommends reducing the subsidy that "nearly all institutions annually plow into intercollegiate athletic programs."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 16, 2019, 03:32:45 PM
Quote from: Hibush on December 16, 2019, 11:40:06 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 16, 2019, 07:05:02 AM
I know I am being idealistic, particularly with other people's money.

But I am also talking about something bigger in culture which I think we might also think about.


Thanks so much for chiming in on this thread with some rooting for these colleges. The discussion can drift into morbidly watching the death throes from afar.

Thank you.  I'm trying.

We are bailing and rowing at the same time.  And there are realities we must face.  But I just refuse to believe that we have to sacrifice every struggling institution and accept every lousy job as the new normal.

In fact, if you consider a $2,000,000,000,000 price-tag on foreign conflicts, as Spork says, or the cost of the War on Drugs, as just two examples, I simply cannot accept that we can't support a small college and vaccinate our children at the same time.  Priorities.  And godd***it education is seriously important. Seriously.

P.S.----I don't know if Forbes is the most unbiased source.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 16, 2019, 04:57:01 PM
There are three distinct societal trends that are affecting college stress.

It's helpful to think which of these to push against. Also to identify which are at work for a particular school's troubles.  E.g. Wesley may be more #1, where Illinois is more #3, and Pennsylvania is all three.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 17, 2019, 06:30:52 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 16, 2019, 07:05:02 AM
education is worth the passionate appeal

Yes, education is worth many passionate appeals.   

What is the evidence that any particular small institution that's circling the drain by every measure we have is worth precious resources that could go into supporting education for those who are willing to invest their own time and energy to become educated and are trusting the experts in what constitutes a good education?

The hoarding aspect related to academic institutions is a refusal to look case-by-case and say, yeah, not this one that has dropped below providing an education to only going through the motions as a zombie institution so we can redistribute resources including students/faculty and save those institutions that are still providing an education and have not yet dropped into the death spiral. 

Yes, I am familiar with driving down the main street and seeing a bunch of closed store shops etc.  I currently have three houses because two of those houses are in dying areas where people are leaving and the ones who remain are those who either cannot find any other job or are unwilling to believe the evidence in front of them.  If we're already at the point that a significant fraction of businesses go under and don't get replaced by new businesses, the smart thing to do is abandon ship for places where healthy turnover exists; we must believe the evidence that this is a dying place and act accordingly.

When I was investigating places to live and work to leave Super Dinky, I saw a lot of small, struggling institutions where the biggest problem was being the Nth choice when, realistically, people who were ranking on any reasonable way to chose a college will fill the slots at the Nth-J institutions first.  For example, Super Dinky was really about 10th choice for the students wanting a small college and there are only enough students in the region looking for that kind of institution to fill slots at two S(mall) Liberal Arts Colleges and four S(mall) Selling-the-benefits-of-a-liberal-arts-education-but-most-students-major-in-nursing-criminal-justice-and-business Colleges).   If out-of-pocket cost is the main concern, people will fill the two regional comprehensives and the local branch of the CC way before getting to Super Dinky at three times the cost.  Super Dinky didn't really want to accept that the only people purposely choosing them were the aspiring nurses because those slots are scarce and the athletes who were picking the first open slot where they would get court/field time.

Students who most need an education are also those who are most relying on us, the experts, to provide educational activities that have some value.  That's not a knock against any particular area of human knowledge, but an acknowledgement that people with the least social capital and least exposure to certain areas outside of a formal educational environment need the most support we can give them in the formal educational environment.  That support could be investing in particular institutions that are doing great things on a shoestring, so the main problem is lack of money.  Instead of having dozens of tiny struggling institutions, we could have several small, not struggling institutions that serve the students they accept well by working near capacity and having an expanded capacity due to additional resources.

Support could be helping more programs that take small cohorts of students who share certain backgrounds and give those students extra support in a not-at-all-struggling institution while acknowledging the realities of being underprepared, but highly motivated.  The Posse Foundation is one such program (https://www.possefoundation.org); many institutions are becoming more purposeful about various flavors of bridge programs (https://www.collegexpress.com/articles-and-advice/admission/blog/underappreciated-benefits-college-bridge-programs/).  Getting more people into good environments with sufficient support that they can take advantage of additional choices is a far better use of our resources than continuing to spread everything so thin that many would-be-good-enough institutions are much closer to duct tape, bailing wire, and bubble gum than necessary. 

Better resource allocation focused on student demographics and student needs underpins the case for states having a hard look at the current landscape and ask hard questions about spreading the resources so thin that many institutions are struggling hard instead of being purposeful so that each program that exists is a good choice for someone who wants that type of education.  Especially for programs that rely on other students to provide a good experience, having a critical mass of engaged students in one program is far better than having lots of programs each with one or two engaged students and then having to close all those programs as being underenrolled and thus not worth the overhead resources.

In short, the academic hoarding mindset (we have to keep everything we currently have) is one factor that is accelerating closure for some institutions that wouldn't have to close if we were better at stating what education means and allocating resources in such a way as to achieve good education for everyone who invests the time and effort to learn.

As for the faculty and staff who are affected by closures, as tuxthepenguin wrote, I am very, very familiar with people who spend far too long on the sinking ship and then end up out of options.  People who wait too long have to accept whatever job they can get today that will pay this week's bills.  People who see the handwriting on the wall and take action can often find some other good enough job. 

How do we realistically help those people?  Well, one way is to have the constant message of what the red flags are that mark the point of institutional no return and help people redirect themselves to something else.  Individuals--excellent teachers, passionate researchers, fabulous mentors, the best team players who carry the heaviest service loads--must take responsibility for exploring the whole of the paid work available and figure out a personally good enough trade-off in terms of intellectual stimulation, emotional satisfaction, and remuneration (salary, benefits, bonuses) outside of academia.  Academia cannot possibly grow enough to provide good jobs for all those who are qualified and want them.

A societal problem that is in no way limited to academia is we, as a modern society, no longer need every adult who can work to work.  That's something that automation and other technology, particularly in agriculture, has done for us.  We're even past the point at which every college educated person who wants to work can find something to do that requires that college education.  That's not a knock on any one field at the college level, that's a recognition that the types of careers have changed and that the strongest case for Universal Basic Income is we simply don't have the jobs and won't have them in the future, either.  Remember, we're only at 30% of the adult population even having a bachelor's degree and that's possibly too many as a generic number for good middle-class jobs and too few in some specific areas where specific formal education is required.  One case for UBI is that more people could make the trade-off to live frugally and spend their time/energy doing something intellectually rewarding or artistically rewarding without needing to have such time-consuming bill-paying jobs that they don't have time for their intellectual/creative endeavors.

Turning again to the students who will benefit by purposefully closing some current institutions, the students who enter college with a minimum of social capital, a minimum of academic capital, and plans to go back to a dying place as someone making middle-class income by virtue of a college degree in anything are the ones who most need a solid education in anything, not a checkbox credential that won't even get them a job.  The students who end up at the institutions that are circling the drain are often those who didn't have other choices or didn't know they had other choices.  Eliminating a poor-to-bad choice and replacing it with better choices means everyone benefits.

However, that means being realistic on how the resources could be allocated and doing the triage of dead/can't-be-saved, doesn't need intervention, and needs the resources we aren't wasting on the dead-but-hasn't-yet-gasped-that-last-breath.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 17, 2019, 07:40:59 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 17, 2019, 06:30:52 AM
worth precious resources

Because we as a people have the resources. 

I realize that this sounds cavalier when talking about other people's money, but I refute you thus. (https://footballscoop.com/news/highest-paid-public-employee-26-50-states-football-coach/)

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 17, 2019, 07:51:09 AM
Quote from: Hibush on December 16, 2019, 04:57:01 PM
There are three distinct societal trends that are affecting college stress.

  • Depopulation of some regions. This demographic shift results in fewer college students in some regions and there is simply less demand for this particular service. The pressure on colleges is the same as the pressure on all other service and consumer businesses. There will be fewer in the future. While that will be painful for the losers, it's not an inherently bad thing.
  • Economic disparity.  The rich are getting richer and the poor poorer, even among schools. I don't know the solution. As a practical matter, it is good to be employed at the former.
  • Disinvestment in education. I'm convince some of this is being orchestrated. Perhaps it is that educated people are harder to fleece, and the prospective fleecers are driving policy. Those of us who value an educated society that is environmentally sustainable and socially equitable need to be speaking up in the right places to make those the communal and political norms. We don't have the leadership to do so effectively.


It's helpful to think which of these to push against. Also to identify which are at work for a particular school's troubles.  E.g. Wesley may be more #1, where Illinois is more #3, and Pennsylvania is all three.

I don't believe there's any need to invoke conspiracies to make the population dumb.  Our society values education less because it has come to place less value upon anything that involves hard work and deferred gratification.  And because fewer and fewer people have enough generosity of spirit to believe that there's such a thing as a public good that needs investment.

Let's be fair, too, in acknowledging that, in the eyes of those on the outside looking in, the higher education sector as a whole has squandered a great deal of public good will over the years.  Many people feel that they or someone they know has been burned by an expensive post- K-12 institution that they feel promised more than it delivered.  That sort of thing leads to skepticism, which in turn makes people less generous toward what they feel skeptical of.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 17, 2019, 08:17:31 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 17, 2019, 07:40:59 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 17, 2019, 06:30:52 AM
worth precious resources

Because we as a people have the resources. 

I realize that this sounds cavalier when talking about other people's money, but I refute you thus. (https://footballscoop.com/news/highest-paid-public-employee-26-50-states-football-coach/)

That's fair enough, but sputtering about how higher education deserves more resources just because it's higher education isn't going to impress the average person whose whole life hasn't been dedicated to higher education.

This reminds me of our town's efforts in recent years to build a new high school campus.  The old school opened in the late 1950s.  The building wasn't a dump, but it was showing its age and lacked all sorts of telecommunications infrastructure and other features of an up-to-date school building.  We got a new school superintendent who began advocating for a bond issue millage to build a new school.  She was quite passionate about it.  Unfortunately she failed to make the best possible case to the public for it.  I recall that at public meetings she was asked some quite pertinent questions to which she didn't have the answers.  She promised to have them at the next meeting.  Come the next meeting, the questions were asked again, and her answer as the same--she'd have the answers at the next meeting. 

Meanwhile in her administration of the schools she appeared to be floundering.  I noticed this in my own professional dealings with her.  She was hardly incompetent, but something about the way she handled things failed to inspire confidence.  The bond issue vote for the new school ended up failing.  It was a great disappointment to many of us.

The superintendent retired, and a new superintendent came.  This superintendent got to work making the case for a new effort at passing a school bond issue.  The new superintendent made the case much more effectively.  When asked questions he got those answers quickly and efficiently.  He made sure that day-to-day operations ran smoothly in a way that inspired confidence.  He successfully got across answers to certain legitimate concerns in the community in a far more effective way.  When the vote came up again, it passed.  Our high school students are now meeting in a far better facility as a result. 

What made the difference?  In part the second superintendent was able--as he himself was generous enough to acknowledge--to build on the spade work that his predecessor had already done.  But I also noticed something about their respective careers.  The first superintendent had spent her entire career--absolutely her whole working life--within the world of K-12 education.  To her the case for building a new school was a total no-brainer.  How could any reasonable human being not see that? 

Well, as it happened, a lot of them needed help in seeing that.  The second superintendent--who had had job experience outside the world of education--was able to adopt this outsider's perspective.  This made him able to consider and understand outside viewpoints, which in turn made him able to find ways to appeal to those who needed convincing.  He convinced enough of them to make the difference.

This is the kind of advocacy that higher education needs.  Higher ed's advocates need to find ways to stretch their understanding of those who aren't in higher education and need convincing.  I think that's what polly has been trying to do.  Certain elements of her presentation--her massive wall-of-text posts, her expressed biases, her endless use of phrases like "checking boxes," etc. may seem off-putting.  But her basic message is worth paying attention to.  Higher ed's advocates can't just take it as axiomatic that higher ed can always use more money.  A case that people outside of higher ed--people that those on the inside may not understand and may even at times hold in disdain--can see has to be built.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 17, 2019, 08:39:51 AM
^What apl68 says.

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 16, 2019, 03:32:45 PM
Quote from: Hibush on December 16, 2019, 11:40:06 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 16, 2019, 07:05:02 AM
I know I am being idealistic, particularly with other people's money.

But I am also talking about something bigger in culture which I think we might also think about.


Thanks so much for chiming in on this thread with some rooting for these colleges. The discussion can drift into morbidly watching the death throes from afar.

Thank you.  I'm trying.

We are bailing and rowing at the same time.  And there are realities we must face.  But I just refuse to believe that we have to sacrifice every struggling institution and accept every lousy job as the new normal.

In fact, if you consider a $2,000,000,000,000 price-tag on foreign conflicts, as Spork says, or the cost of the War on Drugs, as just two examples, I simply cannot accept that we can't support a small college and vaccinate our children at the same time.  Priorities.  And godd***it education is seriously important. Seriously.

P.S.----I don't know if Forbes is the most unbiased source.

Maybe, but the piece is clearly identifiable as an op-ed. It highlights a report about federally-collected data. Then, the editorial part, lists the author's opinions about what should be done in response.

----

Related specifically to the article's recommendation to end subsidies for intercollegiate athletics, the USA is the only country in the world, as far as I know, where taxpayer dollars and private donations are used to subsidize the operations of professional sports leagues. If I was a parent of a college-bound child, I would choose not to send my child to such a university. But there are plenty of parents who finance their children's college education who don't care about this. And it ignores the large proportion of (primarily male) 18-year olds whose choice of college is heavily influenced by the desire to continue playing a sport that they played in high school, regardless of how well they played it.

This is still not the big picture. The big picture is that higher ed is an information industry like music and journalism, and like music and journalism, it is being transformed by technology whether we like it or not. Trying to preserve the entire system as is (a.k.a. going back to the "good old days" that were never really that good for certain groups of people) is like trying to generate fusion through gravity, never being able to squish the atoms together hard enough to overcome the strong nuclear force, when quantum tunneling makes fusion possible at far lower energies, as demonstrated by the stars that are already shining.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 17, 2019, 09:33:39 AM
Adapting and evolving is what makes Western Culture so creative and durable.  And obviously the colleges we have today are vastly different from the institutions that existed 120 years or even 70 years ago.

But what I think we observe today is not adaption and evolution.

We seem to be experiencing a moment in which academia is a whipping boy in the culture wars and considered one of the first expendable elements in society.  Sure, Wesley et al. are small individual colleges among something like 1,200 total higher ed institutions...but what does it say our reaction to a college in financial difficulty is simply to kill it while spending literally billions on political campaigns and sports complexes.

In theory I have no trouble with college sports---I think sports have their place on college campuses.  I enjoyed sports myself and think they have had a very beneficial effect on my life, and it is possible that big college football saved my undergrad alma mater.  And I wouldn't have any trouble with the expenditures of college athletics if we could keep it in perspective and ALSO support our actual colleges at a reasonable level to achieve their primary mission.  As a culture, we can do both.

What I think we need to do is change the nature of the conversation, particularly with the public.  I'm trying to do that in my own small way----probably not successfully.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 17, 2019, 10:04:55 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 17, 2019, 07:51:09 AM
Let's be fair, too, in acknowledging that, in the eyes of those on the outside looking in, the higher education sector as a whole has squandered a great deal of public good will over the years.  Many people feel that they or someone they know has been burned by an expensive post- K-12 institution that they feel promised more than it delivered.  That sort of thing leads to skepticism, which in turn makes people less generous toward what they feel skeptical of.

See, I don't really see how academia has squandered anyone's good will.  We inundate our students and their parents with PR materials before they even enroll and then we are responsive to students and parents throughout people's college careers, maybe more than we should be.  We inundate students with FY experience, counselors, student groups, etc. their entire student lives in order to make their experiences "fun" and worthwhile.  Every institution has alumni outreach and spontaneous, non-money, grass-roots alumni organizations.  And whatever else we can say about major college sports, they do keep a certain contingent involved with their alma maters, sometimes for their entire lives.  I also think we can simply take stock of income and career outcomes to argue that college pays off.

Certainly we have people who resent being judged by their professors, resent the costs, resent their own failures by blaming their educations, resent the notion that they are forced to go to college (by parents or whatever)---but this is simply going to be part and parcel of an industry that challenges and evaluates people's performances.

What I think has happened is academia has come to represent class and politics in some people's mind, and we have allowed the conversation to portray academia as a business model.  And we turn on each other, crabs in a barrel. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on December 17, 2019, 10:37:15 AM
So much of the revenues and personal incomes in the U.S. are being increasingly diverted towards health care and the health care industry. State budgets. Federal budgets. Individual budgets.

Health care spending grows larger every year. It's over 17% of the U.S. GDP now.

Local and state government budgets are getting bleaker, with more and more diversions into health care spending.
https://www.gao.gov/assets/700/696016.pdf

There's only so much money, and with more and more being shunted into health care, everything else (like Education) is being starved out.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on December 17, 2019, 10:50:29 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 17, 2019, 10:04:55 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 17, 2019, 07:51:09 AM
Let's be fair, too, in acknowledging that, in the eyes of those on the outside looking in, the higher education sector as a whole has squandered a great deal of public good will over the years.  Many people feel that they or someone they know has been burned by an expensive post- K-12 institution that they feel promised more than it delivered.  That sort of thing leads to skepticism, which in turn makes people less generous toward what they feel skeptical of.

See, I don't really see how academia has squandered anyone's good will. 

Higher ed has undermined its own image of trustworthiness. While they cry about being underfunded, they answer the growth of low paid part time faculty temp positions with (1) these people don't have needs, they do it for fun, they have plenty of money already, or (2) when they don't have enough money already, they must be hapless losers who are beyond help, (3) anyway there only a few of them complaining, the rest are too afraid of losing their employment to organize. So the problem is pretty much solved if the press would only shut up about it.
...and by hiring managers and representatives, middle and upper, who trumpet these brazen, cynical messages.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 17, 2019, 11:02:30 AM
Quote from: Aster on December 17, 2019, 10:37:15 AM
There's only so much money, and with more and more being shunted into health care, everything else (like Education) is being starved out.

We all say the same things.

But----again----here are the top five highest paid football coaches:

Dabo Swinney — $9,315,600
Nick Saban — $8,857,000.
Jim Harbaugh — $7,504,000.
Jimbo Fisher — $7,500,000.
Kirby Smart — $6,871,600.

Swinney's salary for 1 year could prop Wesley for, what, 2 or 3 years at least?

And yes, Swinney is at Clemson.  And no, I am not suggesting we kill the Clemson football program and give the money to Wesley or anything of the sort.

What I am suggesting is that if America had will to support our colleges we could. 

That's the conversation we need to be having with ourselves and the public. 

Instead we automatically hand over our lunch money.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 18, 2019, 01:36:23 AM
Edgewood College:

https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/education/university/edgewood-college-offers-enough-buyouts-to-avoid-laying-off-faculty/article_765bbcb9-374f-5f9d-a731-2baffb9904bd.html (https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/education/university/edgewood-college-offers-enough-buyouts-to-avoid-laying-off-faculty/article_765bbcb9-374f-5f9d-a731-2baffb9904bd.html).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 18, 2019, 06:18:39 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 17, 2019, 11:02:30 AM
What I am suggesting is that if America had will to support our colleges we could. 

That's the conversation we need to be having with ourselves and the public. 

Instead we automatically hand over our lunch money.

Great.  So, are you going to get on board with the message that education matters and therefore we must use those education dollars in good ways or are you going to continue to advocate for propping up zombie institutions/programs/entities that aren't providing good educational experiences in any sense of the word?

We can make progress on fixing some parts of the very broken system with people who have bought into the idea that education is valuable as we talk about priorities to achieve education-focused goals.

We cannot win on a message along the lines of "this version of education is much more important than whatever you hold dear, so fork over your money, energy, and time for what you're told to want".

The good will being squandered is real.  A Gallup Survey in 2018 indicated that less than half of the American public had significant confidence in higher ed (http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/10/09/gallup-survey-finds-falling-confidence-higher-education).  I can link any number of articles about the college completion gap that indicates about 10% of poor kids who enroll in college graduate compared to about half of rich kids (https://www.theatlantic.com/sponsored/allstate/why-getting-into-and-finishing-college-can-be-harder-for-poorer-students/234/) and even the smart poor kids don't tend to graduate at the same rates as middling rich kids. (https://slate.com/business/2015/06/college-graduation-rates-for-low-income-students-why-poor-kids-drop-out.html) 

Even when students graduate, "annual wages for the bottom 25th percentile of college graduates are less than the median wages earned by a typical worker with a high school diploma" (https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2019-06-17/is-college-worth-the-cost) 

Quote
But it turns out that the proportional increase for those who grew up poor is much less than for those who did not. College graduates from families with an income below 185 percent of the federal poverty level (the eligibility threshold for the federal assisted lunch program) earn 91 percent more over their careers than high school graduates from the same income group. By comparison, college graduates from families with incomes above 185 percent of the FPL earned 162 percent more over their careers (between the ages of 25 and 62) than those with just a high school diploma:
Ref: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2016/02/19/a-college-degree-is-worth-less-if-you-are-raised-poor/


I'm all for ensuring that small institutions remain part of the higher ed landscape.  However, if the goal is to have more people with as much education as they can hold and really mean education, not box checking exercises, then we have to close some institutions to redirect people and resources to support those people elsewhere.  When an institution has only a 50% first-to-second year retention rate for years, then that's people voting with their feet for something else.  I don't know to three decimal points what the retention rate ought to be, but I haven't encountered any places I respect with less than 75%. 

I also haven't encountered too many institutions doing a great job that have graduation rates as low as 30%.  There are some institutions by virtue of the students they serve, but then those institutions are usually upfront that they are doing a different type of education that isn't on a 4-year curriculum intended for full-time students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 18, 2019, 10:06:38 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 18, 2019, 06:18:39 AM
Great.  So, are you going to get on board with the message that education matters and therefore we must use those education dollars in good ways or are you going to continue to advocate for propping up zombie institutions/programs/entities that aren't providing good educational experiences in any sense of the word?

We cannot win on a message along the lines of "this version of education is much more important than whatever you hold dear, so fork over your money, energy, and time for what you're told to want".

Never said anything like that.  Yet more strawmaning.  And this is a typical oddball rant when rationality slips a bit because Polly is frustrated.

Polly, I suspect, has some sort of very personal issues with higher ed.  What I do not know.  Nor do I care.

Sure, I get Polly's POV.  Always have.  What bothers me about her commentary is that her first reaction is to swing the ax.  My impression is that Polly believes that what has happened in the past defines what will always happen, therefore we must accept the gloom and doom because it is impossible to fix what we have with our limited and precious resources which never, under any circumstances, will expand because the general public actually reviles us----and if you disagree she must insult you. Oh, and education is about getting jobs

What I have been saying is pretty clear and not very complex.

And I disagree.  Some people want job training in college.  But there is a contingent that does care.  And even the job-seekers actually care.  We need to mobilize them.

I really liked apl68's commentary from December 17th: "to impress the average person whose whole life hasn't been dedicated to higher education." We all know, or should know, that we need to bridge the perception gap with the public.

Quote from: apl68 on December 17, 2019, 08:17:31 AM
Higher ed's advocates need to find ways to stretch their understanding of those who aren't in higher education and need convincing.... A case that people outside of higher ed--people that those on the inside may not understand and may even at times hold in disdain--can see has to be built.

Many people care deeply about things that do not directly affect them.  I will use myself: I am very concerned about prosecutorial discretion & overcharging (never been arrested & haven't even had a speeding ticket since I was 16); K-12 Education (no kids myself); universal health care (I already have employer-proved health care and in fact have never been without insurance); immigrant status (born an American) etc. etc.  I suspect we are all in this boat.

We need to make the case to the public that we constitute a public good.  So many of us simply seem to have given up, however.  Maybe it's not worth the effort.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on December 18, 2019, 11:24:18 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 18, 2019, 10:06:38 AM

We need to make the case to the public that we constitute a public good.  So many of us simply seem to have given up, however.  Maybe it's not worth the effort.

The public -- does that mean members of political parties? What I hear from most academics is we've got to convince people on the right that they're wrong about almost everything. What would be a way to avoid doing that, or is it just a presence of horrible ideas on the right that have to be fought and defeated? Cajoling and listening might work better than fencing.
Or co-opting. Presently the right wingers are hearing from a few conservative academics about their sense of being the tiny majority. Which is the situation almost all academics seem to want.

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/essay/the-growing-partisan-divide-in-views-of-higher-education/

QuoteThis is the kind of advocacy that higher education needs.  Higher ed's advocates need to find ways to stretch their understanding of those who aren't in higher education and need convincing.  I think that's what polly has been trying to do.  Certain elements of her presentation--her massive wall-of-text posts, her expressed biases, her endless use of phrases like "checking boxes," etc. may seem off-putting.  But her basic message is worth paying attention to.  Higher ed's advocates can't just take it as axiomatic that higher ed can always use more money.  A case that people outside of higher ed--people that those on the inside may not understand and may even at times hold in disdain--can see has to be built.

Disagree. I hear the message as "college faculty have made poor life choices and then get together in unions to persuade people to feel sorry for them" which shouldn't inspire any respect for anyone in the academy. And that message is old, so the current mess has to be partly a consequence of it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 19, 2019, 10:46:58 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 18, 2019, 11:24:18 PM
The public -- does that mean members of political parties? What I hear from most academics is we've got to convince people on the right that they're wrong about almost everything. What would be a way to avoid doing that, or is it just a presence of horrible ideas on the right that have to be fought and defeated?

I think the public is...the public. 

Personally I wouldn't try to browbeat anyone on political issues; rather, I would try to make the case that education is a public good that benefits us all.  I believe there was a time within living memory when this was the case.  Certain republican politicians will require convincing, and some will never be convinced, but that is where the public comes in.  Lead and the politicians will follow.

Some people see higher ed as a weapon of mass destruction in the Culture Wars.  To wit:

Quote from: mahagonny on December 18, 2019, 11:24:18 PM
Presently the right wingers are hearing from a few conservative academics about their sense of being the tiny majority. Which is the situation almost all academics seem to want.

I tend to think that the political dichotomy is a matter of self selection, just as the military and law enforcement are largely conservative.  And I think a great many older conservatives will forever associate higher ed with teen rebellion and cultural turmoil from the 60s through the 80s.  These people are lost to us.  But we don't need every last spanking person in the United States either.

It doesn't help when college students attempt to scream down conservative authors who are invited to campus, or assault Campus Reform volunteers, or demand that regents who march in conservative pride parades be removed from office, or automatically declare any law-enforcement attempt involving minorities to be racism...but how would we police such events and ideas?  This may be something that time will just have to manage.

Of course, we know that antagonism toward higher ed is largely republican driven.  The line that we "indoctrinate" malleable young neophytes is actually fairly new as is the acute right-wing antagonism toward college. (https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/08/republicans-conservatives-college/596497/)  I think higher ed needs to work to refute these views.  There is scant evidence that anyone indoctrinates anyone in college. I find actual numbers on how many college students are democrats and how many are republican hard to find, but I suspect (if my alma mater is any indication) that colleges reflect the general public in demographics.  For instance:

Quote
36 percent self-identify as liberal or leaning liberal, 31 percent moderate, and 33 percent conservative or leaning conservative (https://iop.harvard.edu/survey/details/demographic-and-political-profile)

I think we need to make more of these sorts of numbers.  Again, I would keep our personal feelings about impeachment out of the picture and focus on what we bring to society.  I think this is where our college presidents and PR offices come in.

Quote from: mahagonny on December 18, 2019, 11:24:18 PM
I hear the message as "college faculty have made poor life choices and then get together in unions to persuade people to feel sorry for them" which shouldn't inspire any respect for anyone in the academy. And that message is old, so the current mess has to be partly a consequence of it.

Only certain posters say these sorts of things.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on December 19, 2019, 11:48:34 AM
If only I were able to indoctrinate my students in anything at all!  I can't even indoctrinate them in the use of commas. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 19, 2019, 04:51:44 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 19, 2019, 11:48:34 AM
If only I were able to indoctrinate my students in anything at all!  I can't even indoctrinate them in the use of commas.

Begin with the semicolon.  Socialist globalism is only a step away.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on December 19, 2019, 06:18:40 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 19, 2019, 10:46:58 AM

Quote from: mahagonny on December 18, 2019, 11:24:18 PM
I hear the message as "college faculty have made poor life choices and then get together in unions to persuade people to feel sorry for them" which shouldn't inspire any respect for anyone in the academy. And that message is old, so the current mess has to be partly a consequence of it.

Only certain posters say these sorts of things.

Right, but the second class academic worker is still understood to be a solution, so the dislike speech gets condoned. Not to say so much cheered with high fives, as it was on the old forum.

Quote from: Hegemony on December 19, 2019, 11:48:34 AM
If only I were able to indoctrinate my students in anything at all!  I can't even indoctrinate them in the use of commas. 

Well, who gets to be a victim or savior with bad punctuation? It's more morally rejuvenating and dramatic to go to bat for the little guy.

It doesn't have to be a matter of any one deciding to indoctrinate. It's the vast majority being far-to-the-left creating an atmosphere in which the views they don't share become 'those other views.'

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on December 19, 2019, 11:18:07 PM
But where do those alleged far-to-the-left views come from?  My own field is not very adjacent to politics, and I am sure my students have no idea what my political views are; nor do I want them to. I understand that some fields like sociology and economics have professors whose views are made very clear in class, but still that's a very small percentage of the people a college student comes across in college. So where does this great crowd of lefties come from?  The other students?  If they are already lefties, then it can't be said that the college experience is influencing them.  If they're not already lefties, then is the great crowd that is so influential? 

My own experience is that it's all sort of in the zeitgeist and in the air, especially the air of young energetic folks who spend a lot of time on social media.  Like, a while ago vegans were considered sort of marginal, unusual oddballs; but I found out the other week when someone brought food into a class that at least one-third of the class are currently vegan.  Where did that come from?  Not from any course indoctrination, I'd wager.  Just from social trends. And the more that students explore the world, the more they're exposed to the social trends, and there they go.  If only semi-colons were a social trend.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on December 20, 2019, 04:41:18 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 19, 2019, 11:18:07 PM
But where do those alleged far-to-the-left views come from?  My own field is not very adjacent to politics, and I am sure my students have no idea what my political views are; nor do I want them to. I understand that some fields like sociology and economics have professors whose views are made very clear in class, but still that's a very small percentage of the people a college student comes across in college. So where does this great crowd of lefties come from?  The other students?  If they are already lefties, then it can't be said that the college experience is influencing them.  If they're not already lefties, then is the great crowd that is so influential? 

My own experience is that it's all sort of in the zeitgeist and in the air, especially the air of young energetic folks who spend a lot of time on social media.  Like, a while ago vegans were considered sort of marginal, unusual oddballs; but I found out the other week when someone brought food into a class that at least one-third of the class are currently vegan.  Where did that come from?  Not from any course indoctrination, I'd wager.  Just from social trends. And the more that students explore the world, the more they're exposed to the social trends, and there they go.  If only semi-colons were a social trend.

;)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on December 20, 2019, 06:43:39 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 19, 2019, 11:18:07 PM
But where do those alleged far-to-the-left views come from?  My own field is not very adjacent to politics, and I am sure my students have no idea what my political views are; nor do I want them to. I understand that some fields like sociology and economics have professors whose views are made very clear in class, but still that's a very small percentage of the people a college student comes across in college. So where does this great crowd of lefties come from?  The other students?  If they are already lefties, then it can't be said that the college experience is influencing them.  If they're not already lefties, then is the great crowd that is so influential? 

My own experience is that it's all sort of in the zeitgeist and in the air, especially the air of young energetic folks who spend a lot of time on social media.  Like, a while ago vegans were considered sort of marginal, unusual oddballs; but I found out the other week when someone brought food into a class that at least one-third of the class are currently vegan.  Where did that come from?  Not from any course indoctrination, I'd wager.  Just from social trends. And the more that students explore the world, the more they're exposed to the social trends, and there they go.  If only semi-colons were a social trend.

If you think of it, remind these young progressives to vote. Not that I want them in charge necessarily, but the Trump era is giving me nightmares, and they might be enough to tip the scales.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 20, 2019, 08:03:37 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 19, 2019, 04:51:44 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 19, 2019, 11:48:34 AM
If only I were able to indoctrinate my students in anything at all!  I can't even indoctrinate them in the use of commas.

Begin with the semicolon.  Socialist globalism is only a step away.

Shouldn't that be:

"Begin with the semicolon; socialist globalism is only a step away"?  We have to model what we want our students to do!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 20, 2019, 08:56:36 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 20, 2019, 08:03:37 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 19, 2019, 04:51:44 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 19, 2019, 11:48:34 AM
If only I were able to indoctrinate my students in anything at all!  I can't even indoctrinate them in the use of commas.

Begin with the semicolon.  Socialist globalism is only a step away.

Shouldn't that be:

"Begin with the semicolon; socialist globalism is only a step away"?  We have to model what we want our students to do!

Are you trying to indoctrinate me with progressive elitist syntax?!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 20, 2019, 09:25:59 AM
Hartwick College: bond rating downgraded to Ba1 because of a 20% decline in operating revenue over the last five years.

Unfortunately I cannot locate a non-paywalled article that can provide more details.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 20, 2019, 12:47:16 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 20, 2019, 08:56:36 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 20, 2019, 08:03:37 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 19, 2019, 04:51:44 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 19, 2019, 11:48:34 AM
If only I were able to indoctrinate my students in anything at all!  I can't even indoctrinate them in the use of commas.

Begin with the semicolon.  Socialist globalism is only a step away.

Shouldn't that be:

"Begin with the semicolon; socialist globalism is only a step away"?  We have to model what we want our students to do!

Are you trying to indoctrinate me with progressive elitist syntax?!

Actually I'm far less a fan of semicolons than of dashes--they were good enough for Emily Dickinson, they're good enough for me!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 20, 2019, 01:02:23 PM
On a far more serious note, Henderson State University is having still more financial issues:

https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2019/dec/20/hsu-trustees-seeking-3m-line-of-credit-/


They had already announced $3 million in cuts for the coming year.  Salaries have been cut 3%, retirement contribution matches have been cut from 10% to 6%, there's an ongoing hiring freeze, some course offerings have been cut, and the budget for "supplies and travel" has been cut in half. 

They are said to have about seven days of operating cash on hand.  They've already anticipated $6 million worth of state money that will be deducted from what they had budgeted, starting in the new year.  Now the Board of Trustees has voted to seek a $3 million line of credit for emergencies--if they can find somebody to give them one.

Sigh.  They have a nice campus, which I'll probably have the opportunity to stroll across this coming week during the holidays.  It'll be a melancholy walk.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 20, 2019, 01:13:43 PM
Quote from: apl68 on December 20, 2019, 01:02:23 PM
On a far more serious note, Henderson State University is having still more financial issues:

https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2019/dec/20/hsu-trustees-seeking-3m-line-of-credit-/


They had already announced $3 million in cuts for the coming year.  Salaries have been cut 3%, retirement contribution matches have been cut from 10% to 6%, there's an ongoing hiring freeze, some course offerings have been cut, and the budget for "supplies and travel" has been cut in half. 

They are said to have about seven days of operating cash on hand.  They've already anticipated $6 million worth of state money that will be deducted from what they had budgeted, starting in the new year.  Now the Board of Trustees has voted to seek a $3 million line of credit for emergencies--if they can find somebody to give them one.

Sigh.  They have a nice campus, which I'll probably have the opportunity to stroll across this coming week during the holidays.  It'll be a melancholy walk.

Note to readers of this thread: if you work at a financially-troubled institution and have a choice of being paid over nine months or twelve months, do the former.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on December 21, 2019, 11:05:07 AM
Much of this thread has, in effect, discussed why so many colleges are circling the drain and what should be done about it.  Lots of questions and issues raised in this thread, but apart from Polly (let 'em go and use the money for something else) and Wahoo Redux (fight fight fight) I've not seen much in the way of solutions.  In the hope this may move the discussion along, I've got a list of what I think are  the numerous causes of how we got here.  Having a better notion of the underlying problems may be of use in identifying solutions.  Blaming one big thing or proposing one big solution is unlikely to work. 


This issue has been growing for decades and is certainly not new.  I did my undergrad in the 1970's and even then the thinking was "what are you going to do with a degree in [social science or humanities major]?

We are on the wrong side of demography.  The cohort of 18-22 year olds has decreased and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.  More or less the same number of schools chasing a smaller number of prospective students.  A Malthusian growth model if ever there was.  Colleges are generally not agile enough to pivot effectively to attracting more part time students, adult learners or those working towards some kind of certificate rather than a formal degree.

Mission creep.  Teaching scholarship and service have had various versions of diversity, social justice, equity, race relations, and other hot button social issues added to what schools have historically done.  It's not done us any favors with most state legislatures and a lot of the general public who don't share that zeal.

The cost of a college degree seems riskier than it used to.  Although my undergrad cohort may have been skeptical of the value of a liberal arts degree, those graduates at the time could still go on and find entry level positions in business.  The degree, if nothing else, was a signifier that the graduate could read, write and think reasonably independently and could learn the daily ins and outs of whatever industry they had entered on the fly.  The employer sector seems to have given up on training new hires and just expects them to come in the door with a set of skills relevant to that business.  Even those with harder skills (e.g. petroleum engineering, nursing) have watched their job prospects blossom, dry up, blossom and dry up again. 

Tuition and fees climbing faster than inflation.  Some of this is out of our hands since the need for IT infrastructure, decaying physical plants, federal mandates for Title IX costs, subscription costs for a large number of necessary journals have increased dramatically.  Add on to that significant administrative bloat which we did not control very well and the costs to run the academic enterprise has become greater than many will bear.  When I started at Artem U, we had 1 Dean, 2 Dept Heads and 2 Secretaries.  I now go to meetings and have no idea who about a third of those people even are.  We have an entire office full of staff doing something that used to be done on a part time basis by 2 faculty who already had full time jobs.  Now, the same job apparently takes 6 people.

Money is fungible.  We can spend it on higher education or we can spend it on cocaine and hookers.  Or anything else the general public and our elected officials deem worthwhile.  Wahoo Redux is correct in that we have not really made a very good argument in support of who we are and what we do and why the money should be spent with us.

Fear.  In the nearly 20 years post 9/11, America has become an angry, fearful, bitter, spiteful nation.  Both parties make the case that, "If Trump/Warren/Bernie gets elected, it will mean the end of America."  Fear and anger are political capital on both sides.  In that environment, the kinds of compromise needed for long term thinking about higher education and its role in an American future is not possible.

Education used to be considered a public good.  Although Americans could long ago have followed the Bernie/Warren model and taxed the rich out of existence, we decided not to.  Instead, a reasonable proportion of the public purse was devoted to higher education.  Instead of redistributing the 1%'s riches, we spent it on education and let people work towards pulling themselves into the next higher socio-economic decile.  That bargain between rich and not rich has been breached.  The rich and their political allies are keeping more and more of their riches.  As education no longer came to be seen as a public good, it's now up to every single Scott and Susie to pay their own way through college.  America's obsession with forever lower taxes has had a predictable result.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 22, 2019, 08:20:06 AM
I'll address just this one:

Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2019, 11:05:07 AM
The cost of a college degree seems riskier than it used to.  Although my undergrad cohort may have been skeptical of the value of a liberal arts degree, those graduates at the time could still go on and find entry level positions in business.  The degree, if nothing else, was a signifier that the graduate could read, write and think reasonably independently and could learn the daily ins and outs of whatever industry they had entered on the fly.  The employer sector seems to have given up on training new hires and just expects them to come in the door with a set of skills relevant to that business.  Even those with harder skills (e.g. petroleum engineering, nursing) have watched their job prospects blossom, dry up, blossom and dry up again. 

I encounter the bolded assertion a lot.  If we're making a list of straw men, then this is one that faculty put up without enough awareness of the details on the other side.

Instead of writing a ton of stories, I will just do a reminder of my experiences and then make some declarative statements. 

On the academic side as a working professional, I have been at various institutions including an elite R1 in an engineering program, an engineering institute, an open-enrollment community college in a desperately poor region, a rural regional comprehensive that was rural location and drew from inner-city urban, and Super Dinky.  I have been an active member of both STEM departments and K-12 education units as the STEM representative.  I have taught intro general education classes through senior required engineering/physics courses.  I have been the institutional accreditation liaison officer to HLC, been on the peer-review corps for HLC, and participated in ABET accreditation activities.  I have been the director of online education, chair of the assessment committee, chair of the general education committee, director of assessment and accreditation that included all program reviews, and lead analyst/writer of the general education annual review as well as the HLC self-study. 

On the professional side, I've worked at three national laboratories as scientist at various levels and held a variety of crummy minimum wage jobs in my youth.  I am an active participant in professional societies that have academics as a significant fraction of the members, but are far from academic-mostly.  I have been such an active participant that I've frequently been an officer of a local/regional section where we work very closely with faculty members to do K-16 outreach and talk a lot about bridging the gap between formal education and OJT.  Many of my current duties are how to help recruit, retain, and ensure good assimilation including additional education one cannot get in school at all levels from high school interns through middle-aged graduate-degreed professionals.  I spend absurd amounts of time ensuring realistic expectations on what we can recruit people knowing and what we will have to teach, probably in a formal-enough classroom setting spread over months/years to people who come in with relevant graduate degrees.

Declarative sentences

* What constitutes adequate base knowledge for a competent adult who is ready to learn on the entry-level job has changed dramatically in the past decade, let alone in the time since many faculty members received their degrees.  Companies take chances all the time on the students from the elite institutions for entry-level positions that don't need a specific degree because one can be pretty certain that those graduates have the new base knowledge that includes proficiency in Microsoft Office suite, working knowledge of Windows as office workers use it, and the ability to learn from the web search for on-demand, new skills that can be acquired through a few YouTubes or written instructions.

All those complaints that faculty have on these fora regarding students wanting food chewing on top of the spoon-feeding?  Yeah, that's the same thing that employers mean when they say they can't get enough good people.  The elite graduates are snapped up immediately by places that pay more and are located in more desirable places.  One doesn't have to go very deep into the pool of graduates available at the non-elite institutions before one is out of good choices of people who are both ready to learn the next steps and have demonstrated any significant motivation in stepping up to do what's necessary to succeed in the job offered.

* Speaking of stepping up, one skill that is missing in a lot of graduates from non-elite institutions is either the ability to become interested in something or the ability to act with sufficient interest to perform well.  The cliche in job ads is "motivated, self-starter", but really it's hard to find people who show sufficient interest in a given job to lend confidence that someone will do it well, especially when "doing it well" means "seeking out opportunities to learn more, do more, and step up to be a productive member in the team success instead of focusing primarily on one's individual self".  Yes, one gets promoted by being a "star", but most companies can't function with only stars; they need dedicated, team players who are looking every day for how to help the team succeed instead of shying away from the often-tedious, often-unpleasant grunt/leg/organizational work that keeps things humming and can't be automated. 

If anything, automation has raised the bar on this point because the days when a lackluster employee who could daydream while shifting some paperwork or just help make a dent in the routine data entry of the paperwork as it shows up in the box are long gone.  Every employee now needs to be worth the money being paid and, while it's sad to conclude, a fair number of people who will just go through the motions for a paycheck aren't generally worth that paycheck in an environment that's constantly changing enough that everyone must be learning new things on their own initiative to keep up.

All those faculty members who complain about new requirements all the time, new software updates, and being tasked with things that aren't what they want to do and aren't what they spent N decades becoming qualified to do?  Yeah, that's the same problem employers face with having a constantly changing environment that needs people who both have a solid base knowledge, which includes a whole lot more than it did even 20 years ago, and a mindset about stepping up to do what need to be done in the current environment.

* One shift in employment practices is to invest more heavily in internships, externships, and other student programs instead of waiting until prospects finish college.  Thus, good companies that are likely to still be open in ten years acknowledge that the important aspects of polishing all those transferable skills are best done during the college years on the relevant-enough issues instead of having practice in a farther-removed area.  Sometimes, we are indeed ensuring that the running will be sufficient to outpace the bear, catch the train, or keep the toddler out of the street because the treadmill is only sufficient for minimum cardio requirements, not motivation and speed to act as necessary.

Thus, we will continue to read the very sad articles from talented professionals with N years experience who can't get a comparable job both because newer people are usually cheaper (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/unemployment-poverty-america_n_5d387f32e4b004b6adb9a15e) and because a constantly changing environment means N years of experience in one area spread over a couple decades may be less useful to the employer than the one person who has three years of current experience with the newest aspects or the person who has several 2-3 year stints at a variety of things thereby indicating a track record of coming up to speed quickly in a new area.

* Acknowledging the observed changes in  how long people keep jobs before changing not just jobs, but also employers (https://www.thebalancecareers.com/how-long-should-an-employee-stay-at-a-job-2059796) as well as acknowledging that the carrot of pensions is long gone means being mindful about where one puts resources for entry-level jobs that "any college graduate" can do.  The person who has spent three summers as an intern is both more productive from day one on the official job hire and less likely to leave in the first year for something that better fits with personal goals and interests than a random "any college graduate".  The person who had strong indicators for wanting not just A job, but THIS job through some combination of previous experience, second-hand knowledge through a reference who is employed here or otherwise credible, and materials/interview indicating stepping up to understand what the company needs, not just what the candidate wants will likely go farther and not be interviewing for a random "any college graduate" job.

Again, I will put out the statistic that 70+% of jobs are not advertised, but are instead filled through networks and word of mouth.  A job ad going out indicates that no one could be found with the relevant skills and mindset in the time allotted, which means the bar is likely higher than just "any college graduate".

* The opportunity cost in waiting for people to graduate before even thinking about helping that person explore the job is larger every year for the big employers who need a steady stream of new blood.  The idea that big companies are most of the employers is false.  About half of Americans work in small businesses with 18% of Americans working in businesses with fewer than 20 people. (https://www.jpmorganchase.com/corporate/institute/small-business-economic.htm)  "Over 99 percent of America's 28.7 million firms are small businesses. The vast majority (88 percent) of employer firms have fewer than 20 employees, and nearly 40 percent of all enterprises have under $100k in revenue." (https://www.jpmorganchase.com/corporate/institute/small-business-economic.htm) 

The small businesses that happen to be near a rural college are much better off either trying to get an intern ready for a specific job or hiring the brilliant, hard-working recent HS graduate, transitioning stay-at-home parent, or someone else who is already local who both wants to live here and is highly motivated to do well in that new job.  However, since that's what every employer wants, even in small places, the pool of the highly motivated, educated enough is easily exhausted with many jobs going vacant.

The big companies with good training plans are also competing with other places where what surveys of what 22-year-olds claim they want is not what a faculty member might want for those recent graduates.  For example,  "The corporate perks highly sought after by today's workforce all deal with each employee as an individual. They want to feel like their hobbies are accepted, their values are integrated, and their goals supported within the company they work for." (https://medium.com/startup-grind/employee-benefits-that-actually-matter-99181b1d40)  Those are perks for people who have lots of employment options and money is a consideration, but only one of the factors (i.e., family of origin socioeconomic class tends to play a big factor here).

Those perks look nothing like the ones that one would have to give to get someone with sufficient computer skills to relocate to work in the local factory as one of the handful of skilled laborers or step up as the current parts clerk.  Those perks are almost in direct contradiction with what would be useful in a national ad trying to convince qualified people to move to a rural place.  One would probably do better by flat out selling the joys of the rural place and hoping that a highly qualified, currently-displaced-rural preferrer is ready to try a different rural place.

Again, I think of the contrast between what I read in certain media outlets that accords with what individuals write here as their expectations for jobs and what I see every day in different media outlets and as written material in my job about huge concerns regarding getting enough good people with specific backgrounds.  It's offer time for many fields at the BS level and $100k + full benefits is not competitive for the May graduates we want.  Summer interns are telling us that $25k/hour is not a competitive offer for how they want to spend 8-12 weeks of their summer.  More experienced folks with graduate degrees tells us that we aren't nearly as attractive as living elsewhere and making less or having a different daily experience using the same in-demand skills on other applications.

Even when we extend our recruitment to less elite institutions, we can only go so far in the trade-off between training for our needs and hiring someone with the skills already.  We can afford many more high school and undergrad summer interns who will try things out and spend most of their time learning and exploring than we can afford to hire staff members who will need to start at essentially the same skill level as the good high school interns because of how those staff members fresh from college spent their college time.  Again, having traveled around a lot, the local high school students are much better academically prepared with a mindset of "I need to work hard to get that A" than college graduates I've seen at not-at-all-elite institutions who are in college to get a better job, but aren't getting either an excellent liberal arts education or a good technical education. 

We can even afford to take high school students from the region who are identified as underprivileged, but are very likely to remain here and invest in their combination college education/internships for a much better return than hiring recent college graduates with no reason to stay.  We've trained a lot of people for the nation who are then recruited away from us after a couple years as a full-time employee.  That's a steady brain drain for us that is much more worth it when we start with local folks who wouldn't otherwise go to college than hiring the college grad who leaves as soon as they become useful.

* Many people who can spout the benefits of a liberal arts or just college education were ripped off because they, as individuals, do not have the skills or mindset associated with college/liberal arts.  Yes, it's harsh to say close those colleges.  However, many of those colleges are not providing either the education or the credential.  If we value education, then redirecting those resources to true education or true credentialing would be a much better use of the resources. 

I can still hear the voice of a recent alumna who could repeat verbatim the 30-second spiel for the liberal arts education that a senior faculty member gives at every opportunity.   I still remember thinking, "yes, that's all true, but that's not the education you have.  You have the consolation education degree that doesn't allow you to teach, but took all your time so you missed out on a liberal arts experience. If you had a liberal arts education, then you could have passed all the tests that would have let you graduate with a teaching certificate as well as doing much, much better in my class spring term of your senior year, the capstone humanities class for which I am one of the readers of the final papers and viewers of the final presentation, and the other assessment activities we do to see where programs need to improve.  I have no idea what you're going to do with the degree you have and the education it represented, but I'm glad you're currently happy with the way you spent your time at our college."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 22, 2019, 09:18:52 AM
Quote from: spork on December 20, 2019, 09:25:59 AM
Hartwick College: bond rating downgraded to Ba1 because of a 20% decline in operating revenue over the last five years.

Unfortunately I cannot locate a non-paywalled article that can provide more details.

Found more details on Hartwick College:

https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-downgrades-Hartwick-College-NY-to-Ba3-from-Ba1-outlook--PR_906052857 (https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-downgrades-Hartwick-College-NY-to-Ba3-from-Ba1-outlook--PR_906052857).

"While the college has incrementally trimmed expenses over the past five years, reductions have fallen well short of the 20% decline in operating revenue during this period."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 22, 2019, 01:52:07 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 22, 2019, 08:20:06 AM
* Many people who can spout the benefits of a liberal arts or just college education were ripped off because they, as individuals, do not have the skills or mindset associated with college/liberal arts.  Yes, it's harsh to say close those colleges.  However, many of those colleges are not providing either the education or the credential.  If we value education, then redirecting those resources to true education or true credentialing would be a much better use of the resources. 

I can still hear the voice of a recent alumna who could repeat verbatim the 30-second spiel for the liberal arts education that a senior faculty member gives at every opportunity.   

So now we are actually "closing" colleges, are we?  Getting more severe as we go.

Very impressive credentials, Polly, but do you have any other evidence of this other than a purported conversation with an alumna of your ed department somewhere?

Fortunately you are not in charge, and there's plenty of evidence for the rest of us to throw around:

For instance this (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/02/15/study-documents-economic-gains-liberal-arts-education) ...

...and this (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/01/09/research-documents-life-impact-attending-liberal-arts-college) ...

...and this (https://www.edsurge.com/news/2018-11-13-as-tech-companies-hire-more-liberal-arts-majors-more-students-are-choosing-stem-degrees)...

...and this (https://qz.com/1215910/stem-may-be-the-future-but-liberal-arts-are-timeless/)...

...and this (https://learn.marymount.edu/blog/7-benefits-of-a-liberal-arts-education)...

...and so on.  We are so job focused in our culture that this is what you find about liberal arts majors on Google.  And I even think that we have been over this real estate before, haven't we?

What we have to do is get accurate information out there so that students do not choose a major based upon questionable anecdotal evidence.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 22, 2019, 02:20:47 PM
The point is that several, or many, depending on how you look at it, of the small, private, not-for-profit, tuition-dependent colleges don't provide the quality education that they claim to provide because they generally only attract students that aren't ready or able to benefit from such an education. Hartwick College, which I just posted about, has a fairly good reputation, yet it can't attract enough wealthy-enough students to sustain operating revenue. For every Hartwick, there is at least one other similarly-sized college with less of a brand that stays open only because it's pulling in students willing to pay a lot of money to buy a meaningless diploma. I don't know why you think this is all about liberal arts programs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 22, 2019, 03:42:19 PM
Quote from: spork on December 22, 2019, 02:20:47 PM
The point is that several, or many, depending on how you look at it, of the small, private, not-for-profit, tuition-dependent colleges don't provide the quality education that they claim to provide because they generally only attract students that aren't ready or able to benefit from such an education. Hartwick College, which I just posted about, has a fairly good reputation, yet it can't attract enough wealthy-enough students to sustain operating revenue. For every Hartwick, there is at least one other similarly-sized college with less of a brand that stays open only because it's pulling in students willing to pay a lot of money to buy a meaningless diploma. I don't know why you think this is all about liberal arts programs.

So there's no way to help small struggling colleges?

America has no resources in this regard? 

I respect Polly's experience but generally take what she says with a salt shaker----and perhaps I see bias where there is none based on our long correspondence with each other.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on December 22, 2019, 04:29:13 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2019, 11:05:07 AM

Mission creep.  Teaching scholarship and service have had various versions of diversity, social justice, equity, race relations, and other hot button social issues added to what schools have historically done.  It's not done us any favors with most state legislatures and a lot of the general public who don't share that zeal.


Well there's part of the answer to the question I was asked. These are considered lefty pet causes. Like we needed another black eye.

thanks -- this was the question:

Quote from: Hegemony on December 19, 2019, 11:18:07 PM
But where do those alleged far-to-the-left views come from?  My own field is not very adjacent to politics, and I am sure my students have no idea what my political views are; nor do I want them to. I understand that some fields like sociology and economics have professors whose views are made very clear in class, but still that's a very small percentage of the people a college student comes across in college. So where does this great crowd of lefties come from?  The other students?  If they are already lefties, then it can't be said that the college experience is influencing them.  If they're not already lefties, then is the great crowd that is so influential? 


And the sad thing is we need the bloated administrations because without them you won't get your hands on the money flowing through the bloated government. Someone else will get there and get the money and you'll be left out in the cold.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 27, 2019, 05:04:36 AM
This applies to several different threads, but I'll post it here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/sports/dropping-football-northeastern.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/sports/dropping-football-northeastern.html).

The person who wrote the article hypes gross revenue and enrollment growth while failing to look at net revenue. IRS Form 990s show that Anna Maria College's annual operating expenses increased from $33 million in FY 2010 to $44 million in FY 2018. Annual net revenue fell from $3 million to  $334K in the same period. The college was in deficit in FY 2013 and 2017.

Football has not improved Anna Maria's bottom line one bit. The college's survival strategy is to convince enough people to pay $20,000 per year for the opportunity to continue playing the game they played in high school. People with high school GPAs of less than 2.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 27, 2019, 11:59:48 AM
Ana Maria's record cannot excite the students and alumni too much.

Year   Overall   
2018   1-8, 1-5   
2017   1-9, 1-6   
2016   1-9, 1-6   
2015   1-9, 1-6   
2014   0-10, 0-7   
2013   2-8, 1-6   
2012   2-8, 1-6   
2011   2-8, 2-5   
2010   0-10, 0-7   
2009   0-9, 0-0   
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on January 08, 2020, 01:41:59 AM
"80 tenured professors plan to leave Loyola at the end of the academic year after taking buyouts which have faced criticism from faculty and students.

At the beginning of the academic year, Loyola offered about 200 tenured faculty members — full-time professors with job security and research requirements — money in return for leaving at the end of the school year, The Phoenix reported. Faculty members who take the buyout will receive two times their annual salary in advance.

The program was offered in order to save money, show appreciation to faculty and to address students changing needs, according to Margaret Callahan, the university's acting provost and chief academic officer. She said the main reason the buyouts were offered was because faculty asked for them...."

http://loyolaphoenix.com/2020/01/80-loyola-professors-plan-to-leave-university-at-end-of-academic-year/?fbclid=IwAR1L5BoCeuYgo6GZtr6NsRdKEeHZzkWgpAGqqVrfm8YixvUK2LqFKM7B7TU

I somehow greatly doubt that the main reason the buyouts were offered was because faculty asked for them! That is, I doubt the faculty said "Hey, lay a bunch of us off." They probably tried to insist on a fair deal. But it sounds as though something is rotten in the state of Denmark here.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on January 08, 2020, 05:25:39 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on January 08, 2020, 01:41:59 AM

I somehow greatly doubt that the main reason the buyouts were offered was because faculty asked for them! That is, I doubt the faculty said "Hey, lay a bunch of us off." They probably tried to insist on a fair deal. But it sounds as though something is rotten in the state of Denmark here.

Well, those are two different things. The administration likely said, "Were going to lay a bunch of you off," at which point the faculty likely asked "Hey, give us a buyout if you are going to do that."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 08, 2020, 04:29:11 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 22, 2019, 01:52:07 PM

So now we are actually "closing" colleges, are we?  Getting more severe as we go.
The colleges are closing.  That's an objective fact.  For a list, see https://www.educationdive.com/news/tracker-college-and-university-closings-and-consolidation/539961/
.

Most colleges enroll students who are unready for college per https://hechingerreport.org/colleges-enroll-students-arent-prepared-higher-education/

Many colleges have dreadful graduation rates (below 50% for even 8 years) resulting in national averages that are about 60% graduation in 6 years: http://www.thecollegesolution.com/dont-overlook-college-graduation-rates/. This is especially true for small, indistinguishable institutions that promote the value of a liberal arts education, but have numbers indicating admitting a lot of underqualified students who work a lot and/or have caretaking duties and then don't do much of anything even if they do graduate.

If you'd like to make a case (not links marked this), then I'm willing to read, but I'm not seeing an actual case for how great US education is and people are being unduly negative based on all the data available to me.

Instead, I see articles like https://insidehighered.com/news/2020/01/08/private-college-presidents-gather-talk-challenges-and-opportunities-decade-begins and laugh because Super Dinky is a member of CIC.  Super Dinky and indeed all its close competitors that I investigated as part of being institutional researcher are indeed overpriced and out of touch with needs.  The success stories out of Super Dinky were students who took internships and then moved into full-time employment in their desired fields.  We had a handful of students who were extremely active in organizing student groups who also went on to be successful community members.  However, almost no one really jumped SES classes or did something dramatically different from what their family members did.

In contrast, most of my friends from engineering school who graduated went on to do something different from their family background, even if they are no longer engineers.

We shouldn't close institutions based on their mission.  However, institutions are closing and will continue to close by not delivering on their promise of either a more interesting life through education or a more materially comfortable life by having a good job.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on January 08, 2020, 07:28:38 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 08, 2020, 04:29:11 PM
If you'd like to make a case (not links marked this), then I'm willing to read, but I'm not seeing an actual case for how great US education is and people are being unduly negative based on all the data available to me.

We are treading the same waters over and over, Polly, including the business about graduation rates (have you actually forgotten that?) and it is just you and I and one or two others who care to read or post about it.  We seem to have driven everyone else away from this subject. 

We've already posted about the misconceptions regarding liberal arts, salaries and employment.

And, of course, who said "how great US education" is?  There is much room for improvement in ed at all levels.  But that simply strikes me as true of any human endeavor, from classical music to medicine to law enforcement.   

You are simply stuck, Polly, on the same ideas----perhaps a bit manically.

But okay, since the only thing we are concerned about is the relative earning power as a valuation of education, let's just consider this. (https://www.aplu.org/projects-and-initiatives/college-costs-tuition-and-financial-aid/publicuvalues/employment-earnings.html)

And this (http://https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2017/high-school-graduates-who-work-full-time-had-median-weekly-earnings-of-718-in-second-quarter.htm).

And while this might appear a little self serving, it does offer some interesting points (https://www.cornerstone.edu/blogs/lifelong-learning-matters/post/do-college-grads-really-earn-more-than-high-school-grads).

So "how great" is US education?  I dunno.  I'm not in junior high any more so I am not that concerned with "how great" things are to begin with.  But while certainly not perfect, something is going right.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 09, 2020, 04:50:51 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on January 08, 2020, 07:28:38 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 08, 2020, 04:29:11 PM
If you'd like to make a case (not links marked this), then I'm willing to read, but I'm not seeing an actual case for how great US education is and people are being unduly negative based on all the data available to me.

We are treading the same waters over and over, Polly, including the business about graduation rates (have you actually forgotten that?) and it is just you and I and one or two others who care to read or post about it.  We seem to have driven everyone else away from this subject. 

We've already posted about the misconceptions regarding liberal arts, salaries and employment.

And, of course, who said "how great US education" is?  There is much room for improvement in ed at all levels.  But that simply strikes me as true of any human endeavor, from classical music to medicine to law enforcement.   

You are simply stuck, Polly, on the same ideas----perhaps a bit manically.

But okay, since the only thing we are concerned about is the relative earning power as a valuation of education, let's just consider this. (https://www.aplu.org/projects-and-initiatives/college-costs-tuition-and-financial-aid/publicuvalues/employment-earnings.html)


The problem with all of these articles is that they don't really separate the signalling value of education from its intrinsic value. For all of the jobs that don't specifically need a post-secondary education to perform them, the signalling value is likely to be a big part of the value of the degree.

If a school only lets people over 6' try out for their basketball team, they don't deserve any special credit for "training" successful athletes.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 09, 2020, 06:23:06 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on January 08, 2020, 07:28:38 PM
But okay, since the only thing we are concerned about is the relative earning power as a valuation of education, let's just consider this. (https://www.aplu.org/projects-and-initiatives/college-costs-tuition-and-financial-aid/publicuvalues/employment-earnings.html)

Relative earning power is not only the point that I'm making regarding closing underperforming institutions and redirecting those resources to other more effective means of education.

I keep posting because what's sinking many institutions (i.e., they are closing and often abruptly because they just run out of money one term without enough students) is failure to deal with the entire changed landscape of higher ed.  Those changes include

1) Marshwiggle's reference to signaling and filtering versus actual education.  People who come from good social capital tend to end up with good enough lives, even if they don't max out on earning potential.  That's the case for the people who choose to become teachers, non-profit employees, and others who are firmly middle-class. 

When one looks at the relative value for having a college degree over just a high school diploma, that social capital matters greatly.  In fact, recent research indicates that people who already have excellent social capital get a bigger bump from completing college than those who grew up poor: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/04/the-growing-wealth-gap-in-who-earns-college-degrees/479688/.  A contributing factor is even the few poor people who go to college tend to not graduate (https://www.goodcall.com/news/strong-correlation-continues-poverty-graduation-rates-09275/).

"Go to college for a better life" is a great sales pitch, but people in many circumstances have sufficient counterexamples that the pitch falls short.

2) I have concerns for those 36 million folks with some college and no degree (https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/04/the-growing-wealth-gap-in-who-earns-college-degrees/479688/).  Some of those folks are doing interesting and good enough paying things, while others would like to go back to college and finish.  What college returners need from their college experience is often very different from what 18 year olds need.  The small, undistinguishable colleges tend to have doubled down in recent years on experiences for residential students, which is not at all what these returning students tend to need or for which they are looking.  The case for general education for these folks is also very weak because these folks want and need targeted skills and/or a profession, not generic practice in one-offs.  As an aside, going back to school to become a professor means one is preparing for a profession, even if the BA will be in the liberal arts.

3) I am extremely stuck on the idea that anything going by the name of "liberal arts" and "college education" rise to the level of being those things instead of pale imitations that keep the doors open for now at the undistinguished institutions until the magical day that the good students return and standards can go back up.  We don't have to focus on post-college income to identify these low-quality institutions.

How has college enrollment not dropped precipitously in recent years when the number of 18 year olds did?  Dipping deeper into the pool for more students who are even less qualified and getting them enrolled is one factor propping up college enrollment.  In 2014-2015, "at least 209 schools placed more than half of incoming students in at least one remedial course." (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/colleges-enroll-students-arent-prepared-higher-education)  While concerns exist about how many of the people who test into developmental really benefit from taking those developmental courses and concerns exist about what happens when developmental courses are optional (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/06/25/floridas-remedial-law-leads-decreasing-pass-rates-math-and-english), the overall need to address underprepared students remain at non-elite institutions.

The institutions that are experimenting with addressing the needs of this demographic are showing some promising results, but that costs money and other resources that a struggling institution won't necessarily have.  The alarming rise in discount rates (According to a recent report from NACUBO, "about one-quarter of the participating [private] institutions had a freshman discount rate of 57.5 percent or higher" (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/05/10/nacubo-report-shows-tuition-discounting-trend-continuing-unabated)) also correlates with trying to attract the fewer-and-fewer good recent HS graduates and failing.

Having rising graduation rates in the face of factors that should lead to lower graduation rates like more students who are underprepared, "students appeared to be studying less and spending more time working outside of school, and student-to-faculty ratios weren't decreasing" also could indicate a reduction in educational quality if individual institutions are not also implementing the expensive programs that help students succeed through targeted interventions. (https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/07/has-college-gotten-easier/594550/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on January 09, 2020, 07:13:46 AM
I just started with "earning power" because it seems to be the measure of college education these days, even by academics themselves.

Then I am not sure what your overall point is, Polly.

1) I knew you'd post, yet again, about the relationship between socioeconomic brithright and social capital.  And yeeeeeeeesssss we all know this one.  "The pitch falls short" is a subjective observation in this regard and has nothing to do with the relative worth of small colleges or the liberal arts, and your links only obliquely relate to this, if at all.  And birthright it is hard to quantify; your own article, chock full of numbers and stats, actually states:

Quote
One major bone scholars have to pick with federal college data is that clear information linking family wealth to degree completion is hard to come by, and the information that is available is often outdated.

So as a scientist you must see that it is a bit problematic to codify or even blame higher ed for these trends yet since it is not entirely clear what is going on.

I hate to point out the obvious, but one thing that higher ed critics love to chew on is the college 'sales pitch,' the lack of completion (which we should know from previous discussions is considerably higher for most unis than is generally reported, right?), and student debt. 

And with anything else in a free democratic society I have to point out that no one is forced to go to college.  There may be intrinsic compulsions (mom and dad want junior to go to college) or economic perceptions (junior will end up flipping burgers unless junior heads to Super Dinky for a BA in nursing) but the choice to go to college is one freely made, not coerced, even if it is an ultimately bad or unfulfilling decision.  This is not to say that we shouldn't be working to pare down costs and inequities (and the "Wealth Gap" article covers many of the ways we are trying to do just that) but that it might be time to give the benefit of the doubt to institutions which earnestly offer a legitimate education, and we might let people (even if they are not really college material) try the waters knowing that, if nothing else, the economic benefits and social capital are real should they succeed. 

2)  Who says we know what residential students need or are looking for? 

3)  Ah yes, the lofty standards of yore.  We could use a man like Herbert Hoover again!  I think I heard my grandparents complaining about how much easier we kids have these days...ah well. 

Even here however (and for a scientist you sure are reliant on popular media)....

Quote
Denning himself noted [that] the paper, which hasn't yet been published in a peer-reviewed academic journal, "a first stab"—an exploration of a question he welcomes other researchers to look into. It could well be the case, he said, that "schools are just better at helping students" than they used to be. Indeed, many colleges have launched initiatives to help more students graduate, but the effectiveness of these programs varies, and Denning said he does not have specific-enough data to analyze their role in rising graduation rates nationwide.

This trend, not professionally vetted yet, might have several explanations, so let's hold off on declaration for a moment.

I wonder...since we are educating so many more people, particularly at the advanced and adult ed levels...with more educated parents with their social capital intact to hand off to their children...if we are producing more students who grew up in an educated household...and as emphasis on education increases, rightly or wrongly...if we are producing more young people programmed to succeed in school?  You know, that birthright thingee.

Sheer conjecture on my part.  But, as I posted elsewhere, I am of a certain age and certain professional position to look back upon an older generation, look at my own generation, and to look forward to a newer generation----and I don't see yet how the elder generation is particularly more erudite or successful. 

Your last point sounds like more of the same tired old curmudgeonly curmudentude to me.

Now I think this is starting to get boring.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on January 09, 2020, 07:27:41 AM
Maybe start a separate thread on the metadynamics in question?

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 09, 2020, 07:44:31 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on January 09, 2020, 07:13:46 AM


1) I knew you'd post, yet again, about the relationship between socioeconomic brithright and social capital.  And yeeeeeeeesssss we all know this one. 

.
.
.


And with anything else in a free democratic society I have to point out that no one is forced to go to college.  There may be intrinsic compulsions (mom and dad want junior to go to college) or economic perceptions (junior will end up flipping burgers unless junior heads to Super Dinky for a BA in nursing) but the choice to go to college is one freely made, not coerced, even if it is an ultimately bad or unfulfilling decision.  This is not to say that we shouldn't be working to pare down costs and inequities (and the "Wealth Gap" article covers many of the ways we are trying to do just that) but that it might be time to give the benefit of the doubt to institutions which earnestly offer a legitimate education, and we might let people (even if they are not really college material) try the waters knowing that, if nothing else, the economic benefits and social capital are real should they succeed. 


This is the problem; without being able to separate signalling value from education value, it's impossible to identify "legitimate education". Similarly, it's impossible to say that the "economic benefits and social capital are real should they succeed", since in the case of signalling value that is basically a truism; i.e. the people who will "succeed" are those who have the social capital to succeed and thus they have the social capital to produce the economic benefits.

The only reason to not care about this distinction is if one's only interest is recruitment. If it only matters how many warm bodies there are, then even if it's all signalling value then it's fine because it sounds enticing. However, if anyone has an honest concern for whether and how much an education is worth for anyone considering it, then separating signalling value from education value is vitally important.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on January 10, 2020, 04:16:57 AM
Evergreen College in Olympia Washington has seen an abrupt decline in students to its free-form curriculum. Its challenges seem more akin to Hampshire College, another 1960's effort to provide alternative education to inspired nonconformists, than to the troubled smallish colleges dotting rural America.

Evergreen now has a response (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/01/10/evergreen-addresses-enrollment-decline-academic-changes). They have decided that today's student wants the same curriculum, but with some more structure. They will not be going so far as to create actual majors, but students can choose, should the wish to, one of eleven "paths of study."  Moreover courses will have indcators of whether they are introductory, intermediate or advanced, so that students can select based on how far along they are in their college experience.

This is a measured response for a school with a mission to have a radical curriculum. But incremental moves like this will prevent them from lurching too far in the wrong direction.

I wish we had Evergreen faculty join our discussions here pertaining to  the numbers assigned to courses, and exactly which ones count toward the major. Are we providing more structure than the students actually need?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 10, 2020, 04:44:20 AM
Quote from: Hibush on January 10, 2020, 04:16:57 AM
Evergreen College in Olympia Washington has seen an abrupt decline in students to its free-form curriculum. Its challenges seem more akin to Hampshire College, another 1960's effort to provide alternative education to inspired nonconformists, than to the troubled smallish colleges dotting rural America.

Evergreen now has a response (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/01/10/evergreen-addresses-enrollment-decline-academic-changes). They have decided that today's student wants the same curriculum, but with some more structure. They will not be going so far as to create actual majors, but students can choose, should the wish to, one of eleven "paths of study."  Moreover courses will have indcators of whether they are introductory, intermediate or advanced, so that students can select based on how far along they are in their college experience.


As it says in the article:
Quote
"But at Evergreen, enrollment has dropped by 1,000 students since 2017, to about 2,900, indicating something else might be at play. Of course, the strong progressive bent on campus might be a turn-off to some, especially after student protesters made national news in 2017 for occupying the president's office and calling for a professor to be fired."

Evergreen's problems has much more to do with its political climate than its program structure. (Unless much of the political climate can be directly attributed to the (lack of) program structure.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on January 10, 2020, 08:23:28 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 10, 2020, 04:44:20 AM
Quote from: Hibush on January 10, 2020, 04:16:57 AM
Evergreen College in Olympia Washington has seen an abrupt decline in students to its free-form curriculum. Its challenges seem more akin to Hampshire College, another 1960's effort to provide alternative education to inspired nonconformists, than to the troubled smallish colleges dotting rural America.

Evergreen now has a response (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/01/10/evergreen-addresses-enrollment-decline-academic-changes). They have decided that today's student wants the same curriculum, but with some more structure. They will not be going so far as to create actual majors, but students can choose, should the wish to, one of eleven "paths of study."  Moreover courses will have indcators of whether they are introductory, intermediate or advanced, so that students can select based on how far along they are in their college experience.


As it says in the article:
Quote
"But at Evergreen, enrollment has dropped by 1,000 students since 2017, to about 2,900, indicating something else might be at play. Of course, the strong progressive bent on campus might be a turn-off to some, especially after student protesters made national news in 2017 for occupying the president's office and calling for a professor to be fired."

Evergreen's problems has much more to do with its political climate than its program structure. (Unless much of the political climate can be directly attributed to the (lack of) program structure.)

that's putting it mildly. It looks like one little step away from being a cult. Students requiring white people to stay home on their special day.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on January 10, 2020, 09:35:07 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on January 10, 2020, 08:23:28 AM


that's putting it mildly. It looks like one little step away from being a cult. Students requiring white people to stay home on their special day.

If it was one peculiar idea that everyone subscribed to, then the cult description would be apt. But my sense is that there is room for lots of peculiar ideas. Evergreen is where the proposals can be more peculiar, but the pushback should also more diverse than on most campuses.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on January 10, 2020, 03:20:46 PM
Quote from: Hibush on January 10, 2020, 09:35:07 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on January 10, 2020, 08:23:28 AM


that's putting it mildly. It looks like one little step away from being a cult. Students requiring white people to stay home on their special day.

If it was one peculiar idea that everyone subscribed to, then the cult description would be apt. But my sense is that there is room for lots of peculiar ideas. Evergreen is where the proposals can be more peculiar, but the pushback should also more diverse than on most campuses.

What happens when the pushback descends into pushing, shoving, suspicion, name calling, battle lines being drawn (such as 'Professor Present-While-White-Must-Be-Fired' graffiti) and more, is what I wonder.
Perhaps this needs its own thread, where we can all go and get unravelled.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on January 11, 2020, 07:42:31 AM
I've almost applied to jobs advertised by Evergreen before.

But the weird extra stuff asked for in the job packet has always kept me from applying. I haven't looked seriously at a job ad for Evergreen for a few years now.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 11, 2020, 10:29:34 AM
Quote from: Aster on January 11, 2020, 07:42:31 AM
I've almost applied to jobs advertised by Evergreen before.

But the weird extra stuff asked for in the job packet has always kept me from applying. I haven't looked seriously at a job ad for Evergreen for a few years now.

Please elaborate. Inquiring minds want to know.....
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on January 11, 2020, 12:47:42 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on January 10, 2020, 03:20:46 PM
Quote from: Hibush on January 10, 2020, 09:35:07 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on January 10, 2020, 08:23:28 AM


that's putting it mildly. It looks like one little step away from being a cult. Students requiring white people to stay home on their special day.

If it was one peculiar idea that everyone subscribed to, then the cult description would be apt. But my sense is that there is room for lots of peculiar ideas. Evergreen is where the proposals can be more peculiar, but the pushback should also more diverse than on most campuses.

What happens when the pushback descends into pushing, shoving, suspicion, name calling, battle lines being drawn (such as 'Professor Present-While-White-Must-Be-Fired' graffiti) and more, is what I wonder.
Perhaps this needs its own thread, where we can all go and get unravelled.

I consider that a teachable moment. Ask the students whether they actually produced the change they were hoping for, or made themselves feel better but alienated potential allies.

I was a kid during the free-speech movement at Berkeley and the anti-war (et al) protests that closed Stanford. In both cases, some of the protesters ended up learning how to get things done and accomplished a lot of good things in their lives. It was a very tense time--more so than the Evergreen situation. Where it was used as a teachable moment, some good things came out it it. When the administration decided to bash heads in, nothing good came of it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on January 12, 2020, 02:45:23 AM
Quote from: Hibush on January 11, 2020, 12:47:42 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on January 10, 2020, 03:20:46 PM
Quote from: Hibush on January 10, 2020, 09:35:07 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on January 10, 2020, 08:23:28 AM


that's putting it mildly. It looks like one little step away from being a cult. Students requiring white people to stay home on their special day.

If it was one peculiar idea that everyone subscribed to, then the cult description would be apt. But my sense is that there is room for lots of peculiar ideas. Evergreen is where the proposals can be more peculiar, but the pushback should also more diverse than on most campuses.

What happens when the pushback descends into pushing, shoving, suspicion, name calling, battle lines being drawn (such as 'Professor Present-While-White-Must-Be-Fired' graffiti) and more, is what I wonder.
Perhaps this needs its own thread, where we can all go and get unravelled.

I consider that a teachable moment. Ask the students whether they actually produced the change they were hoping for, or made themselves feel better but alienated potential allies.

I was a kid during the free-speech movement at Berkeley and the anti-war (et al) protests that closed Stanford. In both cases, some of the protesters ended up learning how to get things done and accomplished a lot of good things in their lives. It was a very tense time--more so than the Evergreen situation. Where it was used as a teachable moment, some good things came out it it. When the administration decided to bash heads in, nothing good came of it.

Normally I would like your response, but here I need to respond this way:
So I am left to assume that while Professor Weinstein spoke out against the nutty things these students were doing in a respectful, reasoned way, and refused to be banned from doing his job on 'Day of Absence' and then took the abuse for it, including having to hide out for his safety, other white profs, including probably all those without tenure, stayed off campus? These students need to be taught not different ways to get what they want, but that what they want is mean and misguided.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 12, 2020, 06:40:20 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on January 12, 2020, 02:45:23 AM
Quote from: Hibush on January 11, 2020, 12:47:42 PM
I consider that a teachable moment. Ask the students whether they actually produced the change they were hoping for, or made themselves feel better but alienated potential allies.

I was a kid during the free-speech movement at Berkeley and the anti-war (et al) protests that closed Stanford. In both cases, some of the protesters ended up learning how to get things done and accomplished a lot of good things in their lives. It was a very tense time--more so than the Evergreen situation. Where it was used as a teachable moment, some good things came out it it. When the administration decided to bash heads in, nothing good came of it.

Normally I would like your response, but here I need to respond this way:
So I am left to assume that while Professor Weinstein spoke out against the nutty things these students were doing in a respectful, reasoned way, and refused to be banned from doing his job on 'Day of Absence' and then took the abuse for it, including having to hide out for his safety, other white profs, including probably all those without tenure, stayed off campus? These students need to be taught not different ways to get what they want, but that what they want is mean and misguided.

I think you miss Hibush's point, which was that "teachable moment" referred to the effectiveness of the protesters' tactics-not to any possible flaw in their moral reasoning. The idea that Professor Weinstein might have actually had any valid point to make, (especially given that he's a cis-het white male) ? That's crazy talk.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on January 12, 2020, 08:41:53 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 12, 2020, 06:40:20 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on January 12, 2020, 02:45:23 AM
Quote from: Hibush on January 11, 2020, 12:47:42 PM
I consider that a teachable moment. Ask the students whether they actually produced the change they were hoping for, or made themselves feel better but alienated potential allies.

I was a kid during the free-speech movement at Berkeley and the anti-war (et al) protests that closed Stanford. In both cases, some of the protesters ended up learning how to get things done and accomplished a lot of good things in their lives. It was a very tense time--more so than the Evergreen situation. Where it was used as a teachable moment, some good things came out it it. When the administration decided to bash heads in, nothing good came of it.

Normally I would like your response, but here I need to respond this way:
So I am left to assume that while Professor Weinstein spoke out against the nutty things these students were doing in a respectful, reasoned way, and refused to be banned from doing his job on 'Day of Absence' and then took the abuse for it, including having to hide out for his safety, other white profs, including probably all those without tenure, stayed off campus? These students need to be taught not different ways to get what they want, but that what they want is mean and misguided.

I think you miss Hibush's point, which was that "teachable moment" referred to the effectiveness of the protesters' tactics-not to any possible flaw in their moral reasoning. The idea that Professor Weinstein might have actually had any valid point to make, (especially given that he's a cis-het white male) ? That's crazy talk.

I agree with Mahoggany that the Evergreen students were both mean and misguided. You can't exactly tell them that, but you can guide them to figuring that out for themselves. They are after all committed to justice, so presumably there is some underlying desire to be just. That common goal creates a lot of oppportunity.

The potential lesson for the students is that while they may perceive a tactical success, their approach has backfired so much that they are at risk of losing an institution that welcomes them. The challenge for faculty at a place like Evergreen is not to take it personally, and to persist in helping the students learn.

At Berkeley and Stanford, the students were right, and they learned from the actions that backfired.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on January 12, 2020, 04:10:57 PM
Quote from: Hibush on January 12, 2020, 08:41:53 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 12, 2020, 06:40:20 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on January 12, 2020, 02:45:23 AM
Quote from: Hibush on January 11, 2020, 12:47:42 PM
I consider that a teachable moment. Ask the students whether they actually produced the change they were hoping for, or made themselves feel better but alienated potential allies.

I was a kid during the free-speech movement at Berkeley and the anti-war (et al) protests that closed Stanford. In both cases, some of the protesters ended up learning how to get things done and accomplished a lot of good things in their lives. It was a very tense time--more so than the Evergreen situation. Where it was used as a teachable moment, some good things came out it it. When the administration decided to bash heads in, nothing good came of it.

Normally I would like your response, but here I need to respond this way:
So I am left to assume that while Professor Weinstein spoke out against the nutty things these students were doing in a respectful, reasoned way, and refused to be banned from doing his job on 'Day of Absence' and then took the abuse for it, including having to hide out for his safety, other white profs, including probably all those without tenure, stayed off campus? These students need to be taught not different ways to get what they want, but that what they want is mean and misguided.

I think you miss Hibush's point, which was that "teachable moment" referred to the effectiveness of the protesters' tactics-not to any possible flaw in their moral reasoning. The idea that Professor Weinstein might have actually had any valid point to make, (especially given that he's a cis-het white male) ? That's crazy talk.

I agree with Mahoggany that the Evergreen students were both mean and misguided. You can't exactly tell them that, but you can guide them to figuring that out for themselves. They are after all committed to justice, so presumably there is some underlying desire to be just. That common goal creates a lot of oppportunity.

The potential lesson for the students is that while they may perceive a tactical success, their approach has backfired so much that they are at risk of losing an institution that welcomes them. The challenge for faculty at a place like Evergreen is not to take it personally, and to persist in helping the students learn.

At Berkeley and Stanford, the students were right, and they learned from the actions that backfired.

I appreciate that we can agree on that. I do get tired of the mob of students who've become bigot-hunting vigilantes and I think their out-of-control attributions of racism are a product of something else and not just the carelessness typical of youth. Influence from older folks who should know better.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on January 13, 2020, 04:01:26 AM
I'm grateful for Polly's (and Wahoo's) meta-commentary on conditions. I hope they won't create another thread. Occasionally this thread "sticks to the subject" of just naming the names of Colleges in Dire Financial Straits, and that's damn near useless. I watched with dread for years, and then my college appeared, was mentioned a VERY small handful of time, and then vanished ... from the thread and the world. I was out of work, and scrambling to find teach outs for students. Throughout, Polly's comments were of value, as they indicated problems and suggested solutions, too. I was lucky enough to find similar work, at a somewhat similar school, and I find myself returning for guidance and support. But the support group nature of this thread pales when compared to the diagnostic.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 13, 2020, 05:15:45 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on January 12, 2020, 04:10:57 PM

I appreciate that we can agree on that. I do get tired of the mob of students who've become bigot-hunting vigilantes and I think their out-of-control attributions of racism are a product of something else and not just the carelessness typical of youth. Influence from older folks who should know better.

I think you're right about that. For instance:

Quote from: Hibush on January 12, 2020, 08:41:53 AM
At Berkeley and Stanford, the students were right, and they learned from the actions that backfired.

Any time "older folks who should know better" paint complex issues into completely black and white scenarios, they encourage that kind of dogmatic, authoritarian bigotry.  Realizing that "maybe I don't know everything about this issue" is a vital part of becoming a mature adult. (Sadly, many chronological "adults" fail to ever learn this.)


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on January 13, 2020, 05:43:43 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 13, 2020, 05:15:45 AM
Any time "older folks who should know better" paint complex issues into completely black and white scenarios, they encourage that kind of dogmatic, authoritarian bigotry.  Realizing that "maybe I don't know everything about this issue" is a vital part of becoming a mature adult. (Sadly, many chronological "adults" fail to ever learn this.)

Um...Pot?  Kettle?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 13, 2020, 09:41:35 AM
Iowa Wesleyan University interim president feels "fairly confident that we have what we need to operate into next year":

https://www.thegazette.com/subject/news/education/iowa-wesleyan-looks-again-for-a-new-future-as-the-struggling-university-and-a-potential-rescuer-cut-ties-20200110 (https://www.thegazette.com/subject/news/education/iowa-wesleyan-looks-again-for-a-new-future-as-the-struggling-university-and-a-potential-rescuer-cut-ties-20200110).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on January 13, 2020, 10:38:50 AM
Quote from: selecter on January 13, 2020, 04:01:26 AM
I'm grateful for Polly's (and Wahoo's) meta-commentary on conditions. I hope they won't create another thread. Occasionally this thread "sticks to the subject" of just naming the names of Colleges in Dire Financial Straits, and that's damn near useless. I watched with dread for years, and then my college appeared, was mentioned a VERY small handful of time, and then vanished ... from the thread and the world. I was out of work, and scrambling to find teach outs for students. Throughout, Polly's comments were of value, as they indicated problems and suggested solutions, too. I was lucky enough to find similar work, at a somewhat similar school, and I find myself returning for guidance and support. But the support group nature of this thread pales when compared to the diagnostic.

Interesting.

Do you mean you'd only read one thread on the Forum to find out what you wanted to know?

I can see the value in the analytical side of the issue, of course.

But for other readers, this may be the thread they come to for the "warning" notices on a school they're considering and they might not want to wade through the "kiff-kiff demain" (same-old, same-old) meta-narrative (found on several threads throughout this forum) that sidetracks that.

I don't actually have a direct interest except that I may look at it to see what schools near me are failing and where I might not want to apply to teach....or to add info if I happen to know anything about one that's named.

I made the suggestion because I thought it might be of use to have one thread that looks at things in the deeper sense and seeks out causality and consequences (intended or un-), like, "Dire Straits Navigated," or something, and keep this one for the more reportorial updates, which I miss.   

But threads also just do what they do....

;--}

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on January 13, 2020, 12:41:57 PM
Quote from: mamselle on January 13, 2020, 10:38:50 AM
I don't actually have a direct interest except that I may look at it to see what schools near me are failing and where I might not want to apply to teach....or to add info if I happen to know anything about one that's named.

I made the suggestion because I thought it might be of use to have one thread that looks at things in the deeper sense and seeks out causality and consequences (intended or un-), like, "Dire Straits Navigated," or something, and keep this one for the more reportorial updates, which I miss.   

Well, I do have a direct interest, because I want to warn my students if they're interviewing with any of these schools. I would prefer having just a boring thread with links to articles about failing colleges. Other discussions would benefit from having their own threads.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Anselm on January 13, 2020, 03:43:39 PM
Quote from: spork on January 13, 2020, 09:41:35 AM
Iowa Wesleyan University interim president feels "fairly confident that we have what we need to operate into next year":

https://www.thegazette.com/subject/news/education/iowa-wesleyan-looks-again-for-a-new-future-as-the-struggling-university-and-a-potential-rescuer-cut-ties-20200110 (https://www.thegazette.com/subject/news/education/iowa-wesleyan-looks-again-for-a-new-future-as-the-struggling-university-and-a-potential-rescuer-cut-ties-20200110).

...has been gearing recruitment efforts toward Iowans, launching a new agribusiness program and adding men's and women's wrestling.

Watching this school over the years, I was under the impression that having a big sports program with a small student body is what ruined them financially.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 13, 2020, 04:41:22 PM
Quote from: Anselm on January 13, 2020, 03:43:39 PM
Quote from: spork on January 13, 2020, 09:41:35 AM
Iowa Wesleyan University interim president feels "fairly confident that we have what we need to operate into next year":

https://www.thegazette.com/subject/news/education/iowa-wesleyan-looks-again-for-a-new-future-as-the-struggling-university-and-a-potential-rescuer-cut-ties-20200110 (https://www.thegazette.com/subject/news/education/iowa-wesleyan-looks-again-for-a-new-future-as-the-struggling-university-and-a-potential-rescuer-cut-ties-20200110).

...has been gearing recruitment efforts toward Iowans, launching a new agribusiness program and adding men's and women's wrestling.

Watching this school over the years, I was under the impression that having a big sports program with a small student body is what ruined them financially.

It's been teetering on the brink for a few years now (http://activelearningps.com/2019/06/17/the-business-of-small-colleges-is-not-business/).

I thought the interim president's name rang a bell, and sure enough, she presided over a doomed college once before (https://www.thegazette.com/subject/news/education/iowa-wesleyan-university-mount-pleasant-interim-president-christine-plunkett-guides-transition-20191018).

Here's the quality leadership she's demonstrated previously: https://vtdigger.org/2014/08/29/story-video-burlington-college-president-christine-plunkett-tells-students-resign/ (https://vtdigger.org/2014/08/29/story-video-burlington-college-president-christine-plunkett-tells-students-resign/).

Why is the USDA acting like the IMF?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on January 13, 2020, 04:56:43 PM
Quote from: spork on January 13, 2020, 04:41:22 PM
Quote from: Anselm on January 13, 2020, 03:43:39 PM
Quote from: spork on January 13, 2020, 09:41:35 AM
Iowa Wesleyan University interim president feels "fairly confident that we have what we need to operate into next year":

https://www.thegazette.com/subject/news/education/iowa-wesleyan-looks-again-for-a-new-future-as-the-struggling-university-and-a-potential-rescuer-cut-ties-20200110 (https://www.thegazette.com/subject/news/education/iowa-wesleyan-looks-again-for-a-new-future-as-the-struggling-university-and-a-potential-rescuer-cut-ties-20200110).

...has been gearing recruitment efforts toward Iowans, launching a new agribusiness program and adding men's and women's wrestling.

Watching this school over the years, I was under the impression that having a big sports program with a small student body is what ruined them financially.

It's been teetering on the brink for a few years now (http://activelearningps.com/2019/06/17/the-business-of-small-colleges-is-not-business/).

I thought the interim president's name rang a bell, and sure enough, she presided over a doomed college once before (https://www.thegazette.com/subject/news/education/iowa-wesleyan-university-mount-pleasant-interim-president-christine-plunkett-guides-transition-20191018).

Here's the quality leadership she's demonstrated previously: https://vtdigger.org/2014/08/29/story-video-burlington-college-president-christine-plunkett-tells-students-resign/ (https://vtdigger.org/2014/08/29/story-video-burlington-college-president-christine-plunkett-tells-students-resign/).

Why is the USDA acting like the IMF?

Unless the lads will be wrestling the ladies, or the plan is for all girl oil wrestling, I don't see adding a new sport as garnering much attention.  U of Iowa is big in wrestling circles, so Wesleyan's new wrestlers are likely to be also rans who were not competitive at bigger schools.  As to agribusiness, Iowa State has a world class program and in-state tuition.  What's Wesleyan's value added that would attract new students?

As to the new president, it's just another example of something I have always thought -- once you get high enough up the food chain, you can never actually fail.  You can screw up at one college, but somebody else will always take you on.  Not get tenure -- too bad, go find a job in private industry.  Fail as an executive -- some headhunter will still take your calls.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on January 14, 2020, 03:11:59 AM
"Do you mean you'd only read one thread on the Forum to find out what you wanted to know?

I can see the value in the analytical side of the issue, of course."


Pretty much. I've read this thread faithfully for ten years, and the "the list" will never be as effective as some of Polly's heuristics for making your own list. And the debates (which somehow I don't all that repetitive) inform a lot of my work at at New U, which is very much on the list.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 14, 2020, 03:33:08 PM
What's the deal with Cottey College? Whenever contributions fall below gross tuition its net revenue goes negative, and it's got a discount rate of ~ 50%. Undergraduate FTE fell from 345 in 2009 to 266 in 2018. How long can it operate off a $110 million endowment and donations without students?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 14, 2020, 03:51:12 PM
Franklin College (IN), budget deficits every fiscal year since 2009 except for 2012 and 2018 (when it broke even because of stock sales), and an alleged pedophile as (now former) president:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/14/us/franklin-college-president-thomas-minar.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/14/us/franklin-college-president-thomas-minar.html).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Golazo on January 14, 2020, 06:22:42 PM
Quote from: spork on January 14, 2020, 03:33:08 PM
What's the deal with Cottey College? Whenever contributions fall below gross tuition its net revenue goes negative, and it's got a discount rate of ~ 50%. Undergraduate FTE fell from 345 in 2009 to 266 in 2018. How long can it operate off a $110 million endowment and donations without students?

When I was doing my big, 50+ jobs search, Cottey had an opening. I looked at it and thought "there are worse things than an unstable non-academic job, and this is one of them." Between location and finances...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 16, 2020, 01:36:42 PM
Desperate for students? Advertise "free tuition" for local high school graduates if they live on campus. Georgetown College (KY): https://www.educationdive.com/news/as-enrollment-declines-loom-one-liberal-arts-college-is-banking-on-free-tu/570533/ (https://www.educationdive.com/news/as-enrollment-declines-loom-one-liberal-arts-college-is-banking-on-free-tu/570533/).

From FY 2010 through FY 2018, Georgetown College had budget deficits in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2017, and 2018. In FY 2016, the positive net revenue was $84K on a $49 million budget.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 25, 2020, 03:03:53 AM
Roosevelt University's skyscraper isn't the money magnet people though it would be:

https://www.asumag.com/facilities-management/business-finance/article/20852695/highrise-construction-leads-to-financial-difficulty-at-roosevelt-university (https://www.asumag.com/facilities-management/business-finance/article/20852695/highrise-construction-leads-to-financial-difficulty-at-roosevelt-university).

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on January 25, 2020, 06:37:34 AM
Quote from: spork on January 25, 2020, 03:03:53 AM
Roosevelt University's skyscraper isn't the money magnet people though it would be:

https://www.asumag.com/facilities-management/business-finance/article/20852695/highrise-construction-leads-to-financial-difficulty-at-roosevelt-university (https://www.asumag.com/facilities-management/business-finance/article/20852695/highrise-construction-leads-to-financial-difficulty-at-roosevelt-university).

A "vertical campus" is certainly an interesting idea.  Makes me want to take a tour now, just out of curiosity.  But yes, it sounds like an expensive gamble that hasn't been paying off.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on January 25, 2020, 07:19:49 AM
The Arkansas Legislative Joint Auditing Committee has voted to issue subpoenas to former Henderson State University President Glen Jones Jr; former VP for finance and administration Brett Powell; and Board of Trustees chairman Johnny Hudson.

The university is also now seeking another $3 million line of credit.  They've already cut pay for about 75% of university employees.

And yet enrollment is actually up somewhat.


https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/jan/25/audit-panelists-vote-to-summon-hsu-ex-o/

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on January 25, 2020, 01:30:10 PM
Quote from: apl68 on January 25, 2020, 07:19:49 AM
The Arkansas Legislative Joint Auditing Committee has voted to issue subpoenas to former Henderson State University President Glen Jones Jr; former VP for finance and administration Brett Powell; and Board of Trustees chairman Johnny Hudson.

The university is also now seeking another $3 million line of credit.  They've already cut pay for about 75% of university employees.

And yet enrollment is actually up somewhat.


https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/jan/25/audit-panelists-vote-to-summon-hsu-ex-o/

"About $4 million of the school's $4.9 million shortfall last fiscal year was comprised of outstanding student debt"

Enrollment may have been up, but that only helps if the students pay their bursar bill.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on January 25, 2020, 07:21:31 PM
I'm disappointed to hear about Cottey College and about Franklin College, as I have distant connections to both of them. But I suppose that's the risk of being a small regional college in these times.  I hope they can hang on.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lcburgundy on January 28, 2020, 06:33:15 PM
Frank Lloyd Wright's School of Architecture at Taliesin will close

https://archpaper.com/2020/01/taliesin-to-close/

QuoteAccording to a statement by the Foundation, the decision to close the esteemed institution was made because the school "did not have a sustainable business model that would allow it to maintain its operations as an accredited program."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apostrophe on January 29, 2020, 02:44:37 PM
Quote from: lcburgundy on January 28, 2020, 06:33:15 PM
Frank Lloyd Wright's School of Architecture at Taliesin will close

https://archpaper.com/2020/01/taliesin-to-close/

QuoteAccording to a statement by the Foundation, the decision to close the esteemed institution was made because the school "did not have a sustainable business model that would allow it to maintain its operations as an accredited program."

!!

I read the article and learned nothing, really. The problem must be money--but in what way?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: wellfleet on January 29, 2020, 05:21:39 PM
Cottey College is owned by a nationwide philanthropic organization that was founded at Iowa Wesleyan in 1869. I am sad to see both institutions struggle in the current environment. The PEO Sisterhood might be able to prop up Cottey for a while, but there will be limits there, too. Their decrease in enrollment is certainly not a good sign.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: wellfleet on January 29, 2020, 05:24:45 PM
 date corrected above
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 30, 2020, 04:22:42 AM
U Maine system moves toward unified accreditation of all campuses in response to declining enrollment and lack of state funding:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/01/28/maine-university-system-moves-ahead-unified-accreditation (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/01/28/maine-university-system-moves-ahead-unified-accreditation).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on January 30, 2020, 05:28:26 AM
Quote from: apostrophe on January 29, 2020, 02:44:37 PM
Quote from: lcburgundy on January 28, 2020, 06:33:15 PM
Frank Lloyd Wright's School of Architecture at Taliesin will close

https://archpaper.com/2020/01/taliesin-to-close/

QuoteAccording to a statement by the Foundation, the decision to close the esteemed institution was made because the school "did not have a sustainable business model that would allow it to maintain its operations as an accredited program."

!!

I read the article and learned nothing, really. The problem must be money--but in what way?

One of the problems has been that the place has been driven by acolytes of Wright and adherents of his impractical organizational style. Tt has been difficult to maintain an institution that way sixty years after the charismatic leader's death. Wright's buildings and organizations both require an incredible amount of expensive maintenance, so the operating costs are far higher than conventional ones.

Here is a clip from a 2005 NY Times article t (https://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/24/garden/dissent-roils-wrights-world.html)hat gives some relevant background:
Quote from: Dissent Roils Wright's WorldAcademic recognition came only in 1987, when the Frank Lloyd Wright School of Architecture received accreditation from the Higher Learning Commission, a regional organization. In 1997 the National Architectural Accrediting Board also approved accreditation, enabling the school to grant architectural degrees.

But some people in the architecture world say that despite the accreditation and Wright's accomplishments and fame, Taliesin West has lost its way.

"It's an architectural theme park," said Reed Kroloff, dean of the architecture school at Tulane University, adding that "the rigid adherence to Wright's system is destroying the institution." Graduates of Taliesin, Mr. Kroloff said, "have to struggle to place themselves in the larger architectural community."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: backatit on January 30, 2020, 12:41:50 PM
Quote from: spork on January 30, 2020, 04:22:42 AM
U Maine system moves toward unified accreditation of all campuses in response to declining enrollment and lack of state funding:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/01/28/maine-university-system-moves-ahead-unified-accreditation (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/01/28/maine-university-system-moves-ahead-unified-accreditation).

Maine will be interesting to watch. I've been surprised that they didn't make a push to stronger online programs, tbh (I'm from there, although I didn't go to college there, so I'm familiar with some of the challenges students face in campus selection). ALL of my nieces and nephews are in UofM schools, and they face significant hardships finding course offerings, internship opportunities, etc., even in common fields. The differences between South and North there are so marked, I'm interested to see how they handle this.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on January 30, 2020, 02:14:32 PM
Quote from: backatit on January 30, 2020, 12:41:50 PM
Quote from: spork on January 30, 2020, 04:22:42 AM
U Maine system moves toward unified accreditation of all campuses in response to declining enrollment and lack of state funding:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/01/28/maine-university-system-moves-ahead-unified-accreditation (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/01/28/maine-university-system-moves-ahead-unified-accreditation).

Maine will be interesting to watch. I've been surprised that they didn't make a push to stronger online programs, tbh (I'm from there, although I didn't go to college there, so I'm familiar with some of the challenges students face in campus selection). ALL of my nieces and nephews are in UofM schools, and they face significant hardships finding course offerings, internship opportunities, etc., even in common fields. The differences between South and North there are so marked, I'm interested to see how they handle this.

We are watching Maine closely, too. Sharing compliance positions system-wide could be a real savings. Of course, we would probably wind up like Georgia, barely saving anything.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 30, 2020, 06:14:21 PM
Quote from: backatit on January 30, 2020, 12:41:50 PM
Quote from: spork on January 30, 2020, 04:22:42 AM
U Maine system moves toward unified accreditation of all campuses in response to declining enrollment and lack of state funding:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/01/28/maine-university-system-moves-ahead-unified-accreditation (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/01/28/maine-university-system-moves-ahead-unified-accreditation).

Maine will be interesting to watch. I've been surprised that they didn't make a push to stronger online programs, tbh (I'm from there, although I didn't go to college there, so I'm familiar with some of the challenges students face in campus selection). ALL of my nieces and nephews are in UofM schools, and they face significant hardships finding course offerings, internship opportunities, etc., even in common fields. The differences between South and North there are so marked, I'm interested to see how they handle this.

The reality is that some of the campuses should be eliminated.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apostrophe on January 31, 2020, 09:06:27 AM
Quote from: Hibush on January 30, 2020, 05:28:26 AM
Quote from: apostrophe on January 29, 2020, 02:44:37 PM
Quote from: lcburgundy on January 28, 2020, 06:33:15 PM
Frank Lloyd Wright's School of Architecture at Taliesin will close

https://archpaper.com/2020/01/taliesin-to-close/

QuoteAccording to a statement by the Foundation, the decision to close the esteemed institution was made because the school "did not have a sustainable business model that would allow it to maintain its operations as an accredited program."

!!

I read the article and learned nothing, really. The problem must be money--but in what way?

One of the problems has been that the place has been driven by acolytes of Wright and adherents of his impractical organizational style. Tt has been difficult to maintain an institution that way sixty years after the charismatic leader's death. Wright's buildings and organizations both require an incredible amount of expensive maintenance, so the operating costs are far higher than conventional ones.

Here is a clip from a 2005 NY Times article t (https://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/24/garden/dissent-roils-wrights-world.html)hat gives some relevant background:
Quote from: Dissent Roils Wright's WorldAcademic recognition came only in 1987, when the Frank Lloyd Wright School of Architecture received accreditation from the Higher Learning Commission, a regional organization. In 1997 the National Architectural Accrediting Board also approved accreditation, enabling the school to grant architectural degrees.

But some people in the architecture world say that despite the accreditation and Wright's accomplishments and fame, Taliesin West has lost its way.

"It's an architectural theme park," said Reed Kroloff, dean of the architecture school at Tulane University, adding that "the rigid adherence to Wright's system is destroying the institution." Graduates of Taliesin, Mr. Kroloff said, "have to struggle to place themselves in the larger architectural community."

Thanks for the additional information. I imagine it is very difficult to balance fidelity to FLW's vision with (more) modern training standards. I'm less sympathetic to the problem of the buildings being expensive to maintain--that's true of a lot of great historic architecture--but if it's only half the problem it's a pity that someone couldn't have worked harder on the other half.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on January 31, 2020, 02:07:30 PM
The Chancellor at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock is seeking permission from the Board of Trustees to begin a process of "retrenchment."  It's serious enough that they are seeking permission to lay of tenured faculty in some cases.

https://talkbusiness.net/2020/01/ua-little-rock-chancellor-sends-letter-of-intent-to-trustees-to-begin-retrenchment-process/



https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/jan/31/red-ink-on-books-ualr-looks-to-trim-bac/


Enrollment is down to 9,600 from 13,000 a decade ago.  UALR is now the state's fifth most popular public campus, down from the second place it long occupied.  Their budget is at least $10 million in the hole.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 02, 2020, 05:49:21 AM
IHE has an interview with Robert Zemsky (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/01/31/new-book-examines-market-stress-bearing-down-colleges-and-universities), one of the authors of the book, The College Stress Test.

Their assessment of 2000 colleges puts 60% in the sound-finances category, 30% in the be-careful category and 10% in the dire-financial-straits category. They are looking at the market as a whole, and see that distribution as expected in any industry rather than a crisis in higher education.

Here are two conclusions that we have discussed repeatedly on this thread:
Quote from: Robert ZemskyColleges and the universities in the middle of the country face greater risks than colleges in New England;
and the best indicator of risk for public four-year institutions is consistently declining state appropriations.

The sentiment here may have been that things look bleaker in New England than the middle of the country, so the underpinnings of their perspective would be good to know.

The interview also gets into whether parents and students should understand and make decisions based on a schools finances. The answer is that the information is easily available but very rarely considered. The only school data prospective students and their parents look at regularly are rankings. (Milton Friedman would be sorely disappointed that so many people fail to abide by his definition of rationality!)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on February 03, 2020, 12:31:04 PM
Quote from: apl68 on January 31, 2020, 02:07:30 PM
The Chancellor at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock is seeking permission from the Board of Trustees to begin a process of "retrenchment."  It's serious enough that they are seeking permission to lay of tenured faculty in some cases.

https://talkbusiness.net/2020/01/ua-little-rock-chancellor-sends-letter-of-intent-to-trustees-to-begin-retrenchment-process/



https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/jan/31/red-ink-on-books-ualr-looks-to-trim-bac/


Enrollment is down to 9,600 from 13,000 a decade ago.  UALR is now the state's fifth most popular public campus, down from the second place it long occupied.  Their budget is at least $10 million in the hole.

According to the article, they had already handled $6 million of that $10 million, and a majority of the rest ($2.3 million) came from adjustments to the accounting used for grants and contracts. That leaves only $1.7 million of "real" unanticipated deficit, which frankly isn't that much of a shock for a university the size of UALR - roughly $175 per student.

It causes genuine problems when you start applying the chainsaw method to get your budget back in the black. In extreme cases, it can lead to further tuition losses great enough to offset any claimed savings, and in most cases will offset some of the savings. Obviously, they need to get the budget under control. This is something that has to be done over a period of several years, where you let things die (like faculty positions) a natural death.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 04, 2020, 10:35:52 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/02/us/belmont-university-christians-barred-watkins-college.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/02/us/belmont-university-christians-barred-watkins-college.html)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on February 04, 2020, 04:26:12 PM
Quote from: spork on February 04, 2020, 10:35:52 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/02/us/belmont-university-christians-barred-watkins-college.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/02/us/belmont-university-christians-barred-watkins-college.html)

"The provost of Belmont, Thomas Burns, told Watkins students at a meeting on Wednesday that all of Belmont's faculty and staff members were Christian and that only Watkins professors who were Christian could join the university.

"We do not hire people who are not Christian, so the ones who are not Christian would not be eligible to work at Belmont," Mr. Burns said, according to a YouTube video of the meeting. "But that's just part of who we are."


Yeah, I don't see that going over well with the general public.

"Facing a backlash and the potential exodus of faculty, J. Kline, the president of Watkins, sent an email to employees on Saturday announcing an abrupt shift in policy. Mr. Kline wrote that non-Christian faculty and staff members would, in fact, be considered for employment at Belmont.

"Because we recognize current Watkins employees could not control nor anticipate merging with a faith-based institution, it has been determined that special consideration will be given to current Watkins employees regardless of their position of faith," Mr. Kline wrote.


Damage Control Enabled.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: wareagle on February 05, 2020, 10:37:31 AM
Oh, sure.  They might be considered.  But I'd bet real money that non-Christians won't actually be hired.  Or, there might be a token one or two who get hired for appearance's sake.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on February 05, 2020, 11:50:22 AM
Quote from: wareagle on February 05, 2020, 10:37:31 AM
Oh, sure.  They might be considered.  But I'd bet real money that non-Christians won't actually be hired.  Or, there might be a token one or two who get hired for appearance's sake.

It's a Christian university. Seems natural that they'd want Christian faculty. That's the whole reason parents are willing to pay insane tuition rates.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on February 05, 2020, 11:52:20 AM
Quote from: Aster on February 04, 2020, 04:26:12 PM


"Facing a backlash and the potential exodus of faculty

These people must have a radically different job market than the one I am familiar with. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 05, 2020, 12:45:49 PM
Bethune-Cookman University, again:

https://diverseeducation.com/article/165827/ (https://diverseeducation.com/article/165827/).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 05, 2020, 01:02:43 PM
A (free) CHE article assesses the new poaching-enabled recruitment N (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Poaching-Enrolled-Students-/247971?cid=wcontentlist_hp_latest)ACAC allows. In short, it used to be prohibited for member schools to recruit students once they had committed to a school. Now they can.

About a third of admissions offices surveyed intended to send transfer incentives to students they had admitted but who enrolled elsewhere. About a quarter will try to get admits who have put a deposit elsewhere, but not matriculated. Presumably they will emphasize students who need smaller financial aid packages.

That tactic could really hurt schools in dire financial straits if their higher-paying students are being poached. The students might be susceptible to that poaching if they start to realize the rocky finances of the institution.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 05, 2020, 02:33:49 PM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on February 05, 2020, 11:50:22 AM
Quote from: wareagle on February 05, 2020, 10:37:31 AM
Oh, sure.  They might be considered.  But I'd bet real money that non-Christians won't actually be hired.  Or, there might be a token one or two who get hired for appearance's sake.

It's a Christian university. Seems natural that they'd want Christian faculty. That's the whole reason parents are willing to pay insane tuition rates.

Belmont abandoned their denominational affiliation some years back.  That seems often to be a step along the way to secularization.  Merging with these secular art schools is probably going to turn out to be another step in that direction, although that might not have originally been the intention.  If Belmont's not careful, they could end up with a situation like polly observed at Super Dinky College, where the school falls between two stools--not distinct enough to attract students who really want the religious affiliation, but still a turn-off to prospectives who don't want it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on February 05, 2020, 04:09:31 PM
Quote from: apl68 on February 05, 2020, 02:33:49 PM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on February 05, 2020, 11:50:22 AM
Quote from: wareagle on February 05, 2020, 10:37:31 AM
Oh, sure.  They might be considered.  But I'd bet real money that non-Christians won't actually be hired.  Or, there might be a token one or two who get hired for appearance's sake.

It's a Christian university. Seems natural that they'd want Christian faculty. That's the whole reason parents are willing to pay insane tuition rates.

Belmont abandoned their denominational affiliation some years back.  That seems often to be a step along the way to secularization.  Merging with these secular art schools is probably going to turn out to be another step in that direction, although that might not have originally been the intention.  If Belmont's not careful, they could end up with a situation like polly observed at Super Dinky College, where the school falls between two stools--not distinct enough to attract students who really want the religious affiliation, but still a turn-off to prospectives who don't want it.

Absolutely. I won't pretend to be an expert on Belmont, but I've always had the impression that "Christian" was why students enroll there. They just don't have the academics to convince students to go there rather than the publics in the state. If you give up your primary recruiting tool, you better be getting something good in return, and I don't see that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Golazo on February 10, 2020, 04:39:47 PM
Concordia (Portland) will close https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2020/02/portlands-concordia-university-will-close-at-end-of-spring-semester.html (https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2020/02/portlands-concordia-university-will-close-at-end-of-spring-semester.html)

Probably due in part to the shenanigans in growing their online side https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2016/10/concordia_gained_thousands_of_new_students_--_and_a_federal_inquiry.html (http://in%20growing%20their%20online%20side%20https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2016/10/concordia_gained_thousands_of_new_students_--_and_a_federal_inquiry.html)

But still surprising, I would have though Warner Pacific or Corban more likely to close. No reason for any institution in Portland to close other than bad management.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on February 10, 2020, 04:55:38 PM
Quote from: Golazo on February 10, 2020, 04:39:47 PM
Concordia (Portland) will close https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2020/02/portlands-concordia-university-will-close-at-end-of-spring-semester.html (https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2020/02/portlands-concordia-university-will-close-at-end-of-spring-semester.html)

Probably due in part to the shenanigans in growing their online side https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2016/10/concordia_gained_thousands_of_new_students_--_and_a_federal_inquiry.html (http://in%20growing%20their%20online%20side%20https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2016/10/concordia_gained_thousands_of_new_students_--_and_a_federal_inquiry.html)

But still surprising, I would have though Warner Pacific or Corban more likely to close. No reason for any institution in Portland to close other than bad management.

Marylhurst closed a couple of years ago.  One would think with the influx of Californians to the PNW that there'd be a lot more students swimming around there, but one would think wrong.  Guess the PNW is getting all the retirees. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 11, 2020, 04:57:34 AM
Quote from: Golazo on February 10, 2020, 04:39:47 PM
Concordia (Portland) will close https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2020/02/portlands-concordia-university-will-close-at-end-of-spring-semester.html (https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2020/02/portlands-concordia-university-will-close-at-end-of-spring-semester.html)

Probably due in part to the shenanigans in growing their online side https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2016/10/concordia_gained_thousands_of_new_students_--_and_a_federal_inquiry.html (http://in%20growing%20their%20online%20side%20https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2016/10/concordia_gained_thousands_of_new_students_--_and_a_federal_inquiry.html)

But still surprising, I would have though Warner Pacific or Corban more likely to close. No reason for any institution in Portland to close other than bad management.

To me this looks like total fiduciary irresponsibility on the part of admin and trustees. Concordia's total FTE went from 1,400 in FY 2007 to 8,200 in FY 2015, then declined to 4,750 in FY 2018. Total expenses ballooned from $27M in FY 2007 to $159M in FY 2016. Even though the university was almost always in the black (at least according to its IRS filings), it was immediately burning all the cash coming in on new, risky projects and not improving its margins.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 11, 2020, 07:17:38 AM
Quote from: spork on February 11, 2020, 04:57:34 AM
Quote from: Golazo on February 10, 2020, 04:39:47 PM
Concordia (Portland) will close https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2020/02/portlands-concordia-university-will-close-at-end-of-spring-semester.html (https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2020/02/portlands-concordia-university-will-close-at-end-of-spring-semester.html)

Probably due in part to the shenanigans in growing their online side https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2016/10/concordia_gained_thousands_of_new_students_--_and_a_federal_inquiry.html (http://in%20growing%20their%20online%20side%20https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2016/10/concordia_gained_thousands_of_new_students_--_and_a_federal_inquiry.html)

But still surprising, I would have though Warner Pacific or Corban more likely to close. No reason for any institution in Portland to close other than bad management.

To me this looks like total fiduciary irresponsibility on the part of admin and trustees. Concordia's total FTE went from 1,400 in FY 2007 to 8,200 in FY 2015, then declined to 4,750 in FY 2018. Total expenses ballooned from $27M in FY 2007 to $159M in FY 2016. Even though the university was almost always in the black (at least according to its IRS filings), it was immediately burning all the cash coming in on new, risky projects and not improving its margins.

Did they hire trustees from burned out Silicon Valley startups?  The growth model is familiar.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 11, 2020, 07:58:22 AM
New campus, new apartments, etc.--looks like they decided to gamble big in a declining market.

Note how neighboring institutions are losing no time trying to recruit Concordia's soon-to-be-orphaned students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on February 11, 2020, 08:11:22 AM
Also from the article:

Quote
"Concordia hired HotChalk, Inc., a technology company, to help it grow enrollment and revenue. HotChalk attempted to do that in part by building a new online education operation.

Online instruction was the pivotal force that propelled Concordia's rise to one of the nation's largest providers of Master of Education degrees. But it was a spendy relationship, both financially and otherwise. Concordia paid HotChalk more than $59 million in 2016 and another $30 million in 2017, according to its tax returns.

In 2015, the U.S. Department of Education alleged Concordia illegally outsourced some of its online programs to HotChalk. A $1 million agreement was reached to settle the claim while denying wrongdoing.

Nevertheless, the Concordia-Hotchalk partnership remains intact, Ries said, despite the university's plummeting enrollment.

Online does not seem to be the panacea that so many people think it is.  And mein gott, the amount of money!?!? 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 11, 2020, 08:57:51 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 11, 2020, 07:17:38 AM
Quote from: spork on February 11, 2020, 04:57:34 AM
Quote from: Golazo on February 10, 2020, 04:39:47 PM
Concordia (Portland) will close https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2020/02/portlands-concordia-university-will-close-at-end-of-spring-semester.html (https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2020/02/portlands-concordia-university-will-close-at-end-of-spring-semester.html)

Probably due in part to the shenanigans in growing their online side https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2016/10/concordia_gained_thousands_of_new_students_--_and_a_federal_inquiry.html (http://in%20growing%20their%20online%20side%20https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2016/10/concordia_gained_thousands_of_new_students_--_and_a_federal_inquiry.html)

But still surprising, I would have though Warner Pacific or Corban more likely to close. No reason for any institution in Portland to close other than bad management.

To me this looks like total fiduciary irresponsibility on the part of admin and trustees. Concordia's total FTE went from 1,400 in FY 2007 to 8,200 in FY 2015, then declined to 4,750 in FY 2018. Total expenses ballooned from $27M in FY 2007 to $159M in FY 2016. Even though the university was almost always in the black (at least according to its IRS filings), it was immediately burning all the cash coming in on new, risky projects and not improving its margins.

Did they hire trustees from burned out Silicon Valley startups?  The growth model is familiar.

I would not be surprised if backdoor connections existed between a high-ranking administrator or trustee and HotChalk, given the $160 million in play. It looks like Concordia got snookered into buying the higher ed equivalent of a pump and dump boiler room operation.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on February 11, 2020, 06:30:24 PM
Has anyone read "The College Stress Test"?  https://jhupbooks.press.jhu.edu/title/college-stress-test
Is it being discussed on your campuses or in certain administrative circles?

I'm terrified curious to see the results for my institution. If I had a cost of living increase, I might be able to afford the new book.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 11, 2020, 09:47:43 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on February 11, 2020, 06:30:24 PM
Has anyone read "The College Stress Test"?  https://jhupbooks.press.jhu.edu/title/college-stress-test
Is it being discussed on your campuses or in certain administrative circles?

I'm terrified curious to see the results for my institution. If I had a cost of living increase, I might be able to afford the new book.
See my comment from Feb 2 on this thread. A fairly small proportion of schools are in dire financial straits. But they straits for them are very dire.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apostrophe on February 12, 2020, 03:47:06 PM
Quote from: spork on February 11, 2020, 08:57:51 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 11, 2020, 07:17:38 AM
Quote from: spork on February 11, 2020, 04:57:34 AM
Quote from: Golazo on February 10, 2020, 04:39:47 PM
Concordia (Portland) will close https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2020/02/portlands-concordia-university-will-close-at-end-of-spring-semester.html (https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2020/02/portlands-concordia-university-will-close-at-end-of-spring-semester.html)

Probably due in part to the shenanigans in growing their online side https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2016/10/concordia_gained_thousands_of_new_students_--_and_a_federal_inquiry.html (http://in%20growing%20their%20online%20side%20https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2016/10/concordia_gained_thousands_of_new_students_--_and_a_federal_inquiry.html)

But still surprising, I would have though Warner Pacific or Corban more likely to close. No reason for any institution in Portland to close other than bad management.

To me this looks like total fiduciary irresponsibility on the part of admin and trustees. Concordia's total FTE went from 1,400 in FY 2007 to 8,200 in FY 2015, then declined to 4,750 in FY 2018. Total expenses ballooned from $27M in FY 2007 to $159M in FY 2016. Even though the university was almost always in the black (at least according to its IRS filings), it was immediately burning all the cash coming in on new, risky projects and not improving its margins.

Did they hire trustees from burned out Silicon Valley startups?  The growth model is familiar.

I would not be surprised if backdoor connections existed between a high-ranking administrator or trustee and HotChalk, given the $160 million in play. It looks like Concordia got snookered into buying the higher ed equivalent of a pump and dump boiler room operation.

Yes, something seems off.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on February 14, 2020, 09:06:10 AM
On Concordia from IHE (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/02/14/warning-signs-concordia-university-portlands-closure-which-now-stretches-across).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apostrophe on February 14, 2020, 03:50:24 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on February 14, 2020, 09:06:10 AM
On Concordia from IHE (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/02/14/warning-signs-concordia-university-portlands-closure-which-now-stretches-across).

Thanks for posting. The article barely mentions HotChalk, but someone in the comments says:

". . . HotChalk has disclosed that it is a main beneficiary of tuition revenue. (It's been trying to sell this model to others.) So, anyone wanting to help Concordia people would have to get around the fact that the main beneficiary would be HotChalk."

!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on February 18, 2020, 07:47:46 AM
Hardin-Simmons Cuts 22 Academic Programs

IHE article (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/02/18/hardin-simmons-cuts-22-academic-programs)

Quotecutting 22 academic programs -- eliminating 17 faculty and 14 staff positions -- building on a previous round of program closures and layoffs

QuoteIn a previous round of cuts, the university eliminated undergraduate programs in environmental science, geology, medical illustration, philosophy, physics, political science, sociology, Spanish and music in performance, as well as graduate programs in English, history, math and environmental management.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 18, 2020, 08:33:31 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on February 18, 2020, 07:47:46 AM
Hardin-Simmons Cuts 22 Academic Programs

IHE article (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/02/18/hardin-simmons-cuts-22-academic-programs)

Quotecutting 22 academic programs -- eliminating 17 faculty and 14 staff positions -- building on a previous round of program closures and layoffs

QuoteIn a previous round of cuts, the university eliminated undergraduate programs in environmental science, geology, medical illustration, philosophy, physics, political science, sociology, Spanish and music in performance, as well as graduate programs in English, history, math and environmental management.

They're cutting the religious programs that are distinctive to a religiously-affiliated school's mission--but also their business and education offerings.  Wonder what they have left?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 18, 2020, 09:51:36 AM
Quote from: apostrophe on February 14, 2020, 03:50:24 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on February 14, 2020, 09:06:10 AM
On Concordia from IHE (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/02/14/warning-signs-concordia-university-portlands-closure-which-now-stretches-across).

Thanks for posting. The article barely mentions HotChalk, but someone in the comments says:

". . . HotChalk has disclosed that it is a main beneficiary of tuition revenue. (It's been trying to sell this model to others.) So, anyone wanting to help Concordia people would have to get around the fact that the main beneficiary would be HotChalk."

!

Instead of the traditional vulture capital/debt model for extracting value from an institution (i.e.monetizing the equity) they used outsourcing to divert the revenue stream. That's an alternative to keep a close eye on.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on February 18, 2020, 12:28:41 PM
Quote from: apl68 on February 18, 2020, 08:33:31 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on February 18, 2020, 07:47:46 AM
Hardin-Simmons Cuts 22 Academic Programs

IHE article (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/02/18/hardin-simmons-cuts-22-academic-programs)

Quotecutting 22 academic programs -- eliminating 17 faculty and 14 staff positions -- building on a previous round of program closures and layoffs

QuoteIn a previous round of cuts, the university eliminated undergraduate programs in environmental science, geology, medical illustration, philosophy, physics, political science, sociology, Spanish and music in performance, as well as graduate programs in English, history, math and environmental management.

They're cutting the religious programs that are distinctive to a religiously-affiliated school's mission--but also their business and education offerings.  Wonder what they have left?

I think it's safe to say all of their employees should be looking for alternative work right now. I have no inside knowledge of the situation, but it sure looks ugly from the outside. If they were one of those institutions with 600 students, I'd declare them dead.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: magnemite on February 19, 2020, 11:52:57 AM
Interesting budget times at EWU, with cuts sparked by declining enrollment. I have read that administrative simplification- consolidating lots of departments into larger schools or programs is being proposed to save cash. The faculty, however, are looking at athletics: . The linked article has comments from an Assistant Professor who seems to be among the leaders of this effort, which is interesting in and of itself. I am rooting for cutting the athletic program, or at the very least football... (https://www.inlander.com/spokane/ewu-faculty-write-report-suggesting-cuts-to-athletics-budget-or-even-eliminating-it-entirely/Content?oid=19099082%5B/url)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 20, 2020, 12:28:34 PM
Quote from: magnemite on February 19, 2020, 11:52:57 AM
Interesting budget times at EWU, with cuts sparked by declining enrollment. I have read that administrative simplification- consolidating lots of departments into larger schools or programs is being proposed to save cash. The faculty, however, are looking at athletics: . The linked article has comments from an Assistant Professor who seems to be among the leaders of this effort, which is interesting in and of itself. I am rooting for cutting the athletic program, or at the very least football...
(https://www.inlander.com/spokane/ewu-faculty-write-report-suggesting-cuts-to-athletics-budget-or-even-eliminating-it-entirely/Content?oid=19099082%5B/url)


The athletic director's quote is a great example of rejecting a scholarly quantitative analysis; "I think what you've got to be careful about when you see a report like this is that just putting together a narrative around numbers that you pull from charts and graphs can be interpreted in different ways."  I'm betting the physics professor's analysis is the more robust.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on February 20, 2020, 02:56:46 PM
Quote from: Hibush on February 20, 2020, 12:28:34 PM
Quote from: magnemite on February 19, 2020, 11:52:57 AM
Interesting budget times at EWU, with cuts sparked by declining enrollment. I have read that administrative simplification- consolidating lots of departments into larger schools or programs is being proposed to save cash. The faculty, however, are looking at athletics: . The linked article has comments from an Assistant Professor who seems to be among the leaders of this effort, which is interesting in and of itself. I am rooting for cutting the athletic program, or at the very least football...
(https://www.inlander.com/spokane/ewu-faculty-write-report-suggesting-cuts-to-athletics-budget-or-even-eliminating-it-entirely/Content?oid=19099082%5B/url)


The athletic director's quote is a great example of rejecting a scholarly quantitative analysis; "I think what you've got to be careful about when you see a report like this is that just putting together a narrative around numbers that you pull from charts and graphs can be interpreted in different ways."  I'm betting the physics professor's analysis is the more robust.

Yup. Ask that AD about Sabermetrics. Or ask how they justify D1 scholarships to recruits. I'm betting that they have spreadsheets....
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on February 20, 2020, 03:31:21 PM
Quote from: magnemite on February 19, 2020, 11:52:57 AM
Interesting budget times at EWU, with cuts sparked by declining enrollment. I have read that administrative simplification- consolidating lots of departments into larger schools or programs is being proposed to save cash. The faculty, however, are looking at athletics: . The linked article has comments from an Assistant Professor who seems to be among the leaders of this effort, which is interesting in and of itself. I am rooting for cutting the athletic program, or at the very least football...
(https://www.inlander.com/spokane/ewu-faculty-write-report-suggesting-cuts-to-athletics-budget-or-even-eliminating-it-entirely/Content?oid=19099082%5B/url)

Seems to me this could be groundbreaking. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on February 20, 2020, 03:39:58 PM
Yes, a simple problem of bundling. Harder to sustain when competition increases.

The athletic director should be asked whether it would be a better idea to close down the academic activities to save the sports! :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 20, 2020, 04:04:54 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on February 20, 2020, 02:56:46 PM
Quote from: Hibush on February 20, 2020, 12:28:34 PM
Quote from: magnemite on February 19, 2020, 11:52:57 AM
Interesting budget times at EWU, with cuts sparked by declining enrollment. I have read that administrative simplification- consolidating lots of departments into larger schools or programs is being proposed to save cash. The faculty, however, are looking at athletics: . The linked article has comments from an Assistant Professor who seems to be among the leaders of this effort, which is interesting in and of itself. I am rooting for cutting the athletic program, or at the very least football...
(https://www.inlander.com/spokane/ewu-faculty-write-report-suggesting-cuts-to-athletics-budget-or-even-eliminating-it-entirely/Content?oid=19099082%5B/url)


The athletic director's quote is a great example of rejecting a scholarly quantitative analysis; "I think what you've got to be careful about when you see a report like this is that just putting together a narrative around numbers that you pull from charts and graphs can be interpreted in different ways."  I'm betting the physics professor's analysis is the more robust.

Yup. Ask that AD about Sabermetrics. Or ask how they justify D1 scholarships to recruits. I'm betting that they have spreadsheets....

They could cover the football budget with a thousand season tickets at $3,500. If fan enthusiasm is one of the values the AD is inserting, that should be a reachable goal.
But to cover the DI budget on football's back, the tix would be $14,000 each.

If I recall, the bumper stickers in that region say "This is Cougar country"  That may be tough competition for football loyalty.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 20, 2020, 05:49:34 PM
Quote from: Hibush on February 20, 2020, 12:28:34 PM
Quote from: magnemite on February 19, 2020, 11:52:57 AM
Interesting budget times at EWU, with cuts sparked by declining enrollment. I have read that administrative simplification- consolidating lots of departments into larger schools or programs is being proposed to save cash. The faculty, however, are looking at athletics: . The linked article has comments from an Assistant Professor who seems to be among the leaders of this effort, which is interesting in and of itself. I am rooting for cutting the athletic program, or at the very least football...
(https://www.inlander.com/spokane/ewu-faculty-write-report-suggesting-cuts-to-athletics-budget-or-even-eliminating-it-entirely/Content?oid=19099082%5B/url)


The athletic director's quote is a great example of rejecting a scholarly quantitative analysis; "I think what you've got to be careful about when you see a report like this is that just putting together a narrative around numbers that you pull from charts and graphs can be interpreted in different ways."  I'm betting the physics professor's analysis is the more robust.

I love Hickey's argument of "the athletic programs at almost every other university lose money, too."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 22, 2020, 02:24:18 AM
Kendall College of Art and Design: https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2020/02/kendall-college-merging-arts-programs-making-cuts.html (https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2020/02/kendall-college-merging-arts-programs-making-cuts.html).

Longer analysis of independent art schools: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/02/21/kendall-college-makes-tough-cuts (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/02/21/kendall-college-makes-tough-cuts).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 22, 2020, 04:05:24 AM
Oops, that second link should have been: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/02/07/art-schools-show-signs-stress-what-can-liberal-arts-colleges-learn (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/02/07/art-schools-show-signs-stress-what-can-liberal-arts-colleges-learn).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 22, 2020, 07:21:35 AM
Interesting--and surprising--to note that overall art-school enrollments haven't crashed in recent years like numbers of liberal arts majors have.  With the widespread conventional wisdom now being that only STEM, business, etc. are worth majoring in, I would have expected otherwise.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 22, 2020, 08:52:47 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 22, 2020, 07:21:35 AM
Interesting--and surprising--to note that overall art-school enrollments haven't crashed in recent years like numbers of liberal arts majors have.  With the widespread conventional wisdom now being that only STEM, business, etc. are worth majoring in, I would have expected otherwise.

I am totally unfamiliar with how the stand-alone art schools operate, but at my tiny institution, the art department is one of the most technology-and design-forward programs on campus (the others being biology and chemistry with bench lab equipment; we do not have any engineering). Unfortunately the common perception among faculty and administrators is that art means nothing but painting portraits and looking at photos of cathedral murals.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on February 22, 2020, 07:27:12 PM
Graphic design draws students and sets up requirements for modern art history courses, among other things.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 23, 2020, 04:36:09 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 22, 2020, 07:21:35 AM
Interesting--and surprising--to note that overall art-school enrollments haven't crashed in recent years like numbers of liberal arts majors have.  With the widespread conventional wisdom now being that only STEM, business, etc. are worth majoring in, I would have expected otherwise.

I would imagine that art school always gets people who are really passionate about it, so enrollment isn't subject to a lot of marketing hype. (Which school someone chooses may be, but the fact that they're going to a fine arts program never is.)

If I ran the world, I'd discourage anyone who didn't have that kind of certainty from going to anyplace at all. Work for a few years and see if you ever feel there's something you desperately want to do. We could probably scrap half of the remedial programs and other expensive measures to salvage failing students if we just kept them from entering until they were sure that's what they wanted to do.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on February 24, 2020, 08:14:29 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 23, 2020, 04:36:09 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 22, 2020, 07:21:35 AM
Interesting--and surprising--to note that overall art-school enrollments haven't crashed in recent years like numbers of liberal arts majors have.  With the widespread conventional wisdom now being that only STEM, business, etc. are worth majoring in, I would have expected otherwise.

I would imagine that art school always gets people who are really passionate about it, so enrollment isn't subject to a lot of marketing hype. (Which school someone chooses may be, but the fact that they're going to a fine arts program never is.)

If I ran the world, I'd discourage anyone who didn't have that kind of certainty from going to anyplace at all. Work for a few years and see if you ever feel there's something you desperately want to do. We could probably scrap half of the remedial programs and other expensive measures to salvage failing students if we just kept them from entering until they were sure that's what they wanted to do.

And half the arts schools.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on February 25, 2020, 08:20:31 AM
"Putting Liberal Arts on Ice (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/02/25/long-island-university-freezes-enrollments-many-liberal-arts-programs)" from IHE.  Long Island University freezing enrollment in a number of LA programs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 25, 2020, 09:18:51 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on February 25, 2020, 08:20:31 AM
"Putting Liberal Arts on Ice (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/02/25/long-island-university-freezes-enrollments-many-liberal-arts-programs)" from IHE.  Long Island University freezing enrollment in a number of LA programs.

How is starting a vet school "playing to your strengths" for LIU?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on February 25, 2020, 09:54:00 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 25, 2020, 09:18:51 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on February 25, 2020, 08:20:31 AM
"Putting Liberal Arts on Ice (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/02/25/long-island-university-freezes-enrollments-many-liberal-arts-programs)" from IHE.  Long Island University freezing enrollment in a number of LA programs.

How is starting a vet school "playing to your strengths" for LIU?

This hits close to home. LIU and Post have been in a lot of trouble recently, both financial and administrative. The cuts are only going to continue.

A vet school is in some ways an odd choice. It's got to be crazy expensive to set up, and to run. Full medical school tuition isn't going to offset those costs, although a lot of "polo parties" might. My guess is that this is a sop to local personalities; Brookville used to be almost entirely ranch country, and still has a lot of hobby farms. And over the past decade there's been some growth in local animal farming, in part as a consequence of the local food movement and the restaurants on the East end.

If I were in one of the liberal arts departments on the campus, I would look around to see how others do it at "cow colleges". Guelph University, in Canada, runs a robust African Studies program. It seems like an odd choice, especially when you see where Guelph is on a map. But that program shares a lot of common ground with the farm-focused parts of the institution.

I wouldn't hold my breath about growth at LIU, on either campus. President Cline was hired because she has a track record of coming is with a hatchet.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on February 25, 2020, 10:08:06 AM
Ohio State is still, to some extent, a "cow college," given that at least some of the corn fields I used to bicycle past are still standing, near West Campus.

Overlooking the football stadium, of course...

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 25, 2020, 10:13:40 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on February 25, 2020, 09:54:00 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 25, 2020, 09:18:51 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on February 25, 2020, 08:20:31 AM
"Putting Liberal Arts on Ice (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/02/25/long-island-university-freezes-enrollments-many-liberal-arts-programs)" from IHE.  Long Island University freezing enrollment in a number of LA programs.

How is starting a vet school "playing to your strengths" for LIU?

This hits close to home. LIU and Post have been in a lot of trouble recently, both financial and administrative. The cuts are only going to continue.

A vet school is in some ways an odd choice. It's got to be crazy expensive to set up, and to run. Full medical school tuition isn't going to offset those costs, although a lot of "polo parties" might. My guess is that this is a sop to local personalities; Brookville used to be almost entirely ranch country, and still has a lot of hobby farms. And over the past decade there's been some growth in local animal farming, in part as a consequence of the local food movement and the restaurants on the East end.

If I were in one of the liberal arts departments on the campus, I would look around to see how others do it at "cow colleges". Guelph University, in Canada, runs a robust African Studies program. It seems like an odd choice, especially when you see where Guelph is on a map.

The vet program at Guelph has been around for decades, so it may not be very useful as an indicator of the value of starting one now.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on February 25, 2020, 02:13:41 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 25, 2020, 10:13:40 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on February 25, 2020, 09:54:00 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 25, 2020, 09:18:51 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on February 25, 2020, 08:20:31 AM
"Putting Liberal Arts on Ice (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/02/25/long-island-university-freezes-enrollments-many-liberal-arts-programs)" from IHE.  Long Island University freezing enrollment in a number of LA programs.

How is starting a vet school "playing to your strengths" for LIU?

This hits close to home. LIU and Post have been in a lot of trouble recently, both financial and administrative. The cuts are only going to continue.

A vet school is in some ways an odd choice. It's got to be crazy expensive to set up, and to run. Full medical school tuition isn't going to offset those costs, although a lot of "polo parties" might. My guess is that this is a sop to local personalities; Brookville used to be almost entirely ranch country, and still has a lot of hobby farms. And over the past decade there's been some growth in local animal farming, in part as a consequence of the local food movement and the restaurants on the East end.

If I were in one of the liberal arts departments on the campus, I would look around to see how others do it at "cow colleges". Guelph University, in Canada, runs a robust African Studies program. It seems like an odd choice, especially when you see where Guelph is on a map.

The vet program at Guelph has been around for decades, so it may not be very useful as an indicator of the value of starting one now.

Not my point.

The LIU faculty have a few collective options:
1. Protest the Vet School. It may well turn out to be a non-starter, lacking accreditation and any meaningful revenue stream.
2. Dig in, along traditional disciplinary lines. What I hear out of both campuses is that this hasn't worked, and is unlikely to work. Sure, they could take the VPAA's word that frozen programs might be unfrozen if they demonstrate demand. But when you cannot recruit, it's hard to imagine how you would attract the critical mass to run seminars, let alone lecture classes. Those programs are toast.
3. Develop new programs, probably interdisciplinary or multidisciplinary. If they go this route, it might be strategic to align with other university offerings. That's all I'm saying. Nobody's going to go to LIU Post for "International Basketweaving". They might go for "Equine Studies", with it's innovative curriculum, including courses such as:

* Chariots and Stirrups: Histories of Ancient Warfare
* Locavores and Carnivores: Cultural Studies and Micro-communities
* Trojans: Prophylactics, Gift Horses, and Strategies for Survival in Hostile Academic Environments (Prerequisite: Burning Your Boats I and II)

I don't like being flippant, but I really don't like seeing so many people lose their jobs. I'm open to any suggestions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on February 25, 2020, 04:05:40 PM
Umm....did you read the full post you quoted?

The Vet school is not new.

It's "been around for decades."

Your analytical premise is vetoed by your reading error.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 25, 2020, 04:32:14 PM
The point is that the current leadership of LIU has apparently decided that a new vet school is more likely to save the university than its existing (or existing until recently) liberal arts programs. This strikes me as Hail Mary, pie in the sky thinking. As this IHE editorial (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2017/06/06/signs-institution-path-toward-unrecoverable-failure-essay) points out, the "build it and they will come" strategy often "ends up being a financial time bomb with a short fuse."

If LIU pulls from a horsey demographic (I don't know if this is actually true), why not the previously-mentioned "equine studies" or vet tech instead of a full-blown vet school? Much cheaper to start.

Edited to add:

I'm not very familiar with the higher ed market in the area outside of NYC. Is it similar to the Gulf sheikhdoms, a high income area with capable students attending universities elsewhere and only the lazy dimwits enrolling locally?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 25, 2020, 06:47:30 PM
Quote from: spork on February 25, 2020, 04:32:14 PM
If LIU pulls from a horsey demographic (I don't know if this is actually true), why not the previously-mentioned "equine studies" or vet tech instead of a full-blown vet school? Much cheaper to start.

I'm not very familiar with the higher ed market in the area outside of NYC. Is it similar to the Gulf sheikhdoms, a high income area with capable students attending universities elsewhere and only the lazy dimwits enrolling locally?

While unclear from the IHE article, but pointed out by Mamselle, LIU Vet is farther along, ready to admit its first class this fall. So there has already been a significant investment.

In terms of location, it is probably fine. Vet schools are mostly small animal (dogs and cats) these days. That training could be supported anywhere that people want to study. Why not the Long Island suburbs? The existing vet schools in the Northeast are Tufts, Penn and Cornell.

The horsey set pays veterinarians, they don't become veterinarians. So to the extent there are horsey parts of Long Island, that may have little influence on the viability. The LI horses are far outnumbered by household pets.

In terms of money sink, it could be a big one. I have seen three vet schools, ones that do large animal teaching and have substantial research programs. A billion dollars would get you the basic infrastructure. How much does LIU have now?

Their financial aid page has some revenue numbers. They are budgeted for 100 students per class at $55,000 tuition per year for four years, and $100 million per year in financial aid. With four classes in place, they would have $120 million in net tuition.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on February 26, 2020, 10:50:30 AM
Quote from: mamselle on February 25, 2020, 04:05:40 PM
Umm....did you read the full post you quoted?

The Vet school is not new.

It's "been around for decades."

Your analytical premise is vetoed by your reading error.

M.

Was that aimed at me? I'm well aware that Guelph's has been around for over a century, and that LIU Post's is just launching. My point was that people at the latter might look to the former for some ways to stick around. Otherwise, they will be frozen out.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 26, 2020, 12:42:30 PM
It's not exactly financial trouble, but University of Arkansas' flagship campus at Fayetteville has just had an unfortunate accident involving a campus landmark.  The "Spoofer's Stone" was a large stone block left over on campus from construction in the late 1800s.  Students used it for a resting bench.  Then a crack in the stone became a local lover's post box.  It was a site for wedding proposals.  Much of it was gradually chipped away for souvenirs.  It was once stolen like the Stone of Scone in a college prank.  And now it has apparently smashed by accident:


https://www.fayettevilleflyer.com/2020/02/25/beloved-spoofers-stone-on-campus-damaged-in-construction-accident/

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on February 26, 2020, 03:04:46 PM
Quote from: Hibush on February 25, 2020, 06:47:30 PM
Quote from: spork on February 25, 2020, 04:32:14 PM
If LIU pulls from a horsey demographic (I don't know if this is actually true), why not the previously-mentioned "equine studies" or vet tech instead of a full-blown vet school? Much cheaper to start.

I'm not very familiar with the higher ed market in the area outside of NYC. Is it similar to the Gulf sheikhdoms, a high income area with capable students attending universities elsewhere and only the lazy dimwits enrolling locally?

While unclear from the IHE article, but pointed out by Mamselle, LIU Vet is farther along, ready to admit its first class this fall. So there has already been a significant investment.

In terms of location, it is probably fine. Vet schools are mostly small animal (dogs and cats) these days. That training could be supported anywhere that people want to study. Why not the Long Island suburbs? The existing vet schools in the Northeast are Tufts, Penn and Cornell.

The horsey set pays veterinarians, they don't become veterinarians. So to the extent there are horsey parts of Long Island, that may have little influence on the viability. The LI horses are far outnumbered by household pets.

In terms of money sink, it could be a big one. I have seen three vet schools, ones that do large animal teaching and have substantial research programs. A billion dollars would get you the basic infrastructure. How much does LIU have now?

Their financial aid page has some revenue numbers. They are budgeted for 100 students per class at $55,000 tuition per year for four years, and $100 million per year in financial aid. With four classes in place, they would have $120 million in net tuition.

Responding to the bolded part -- one of the linked articles mentioned the polo fundraisers, $10k/entrant. Who do you think that's aimed at? These folks don't actually have to be the main customers for the vets; they just have to pony up the money to set up/maintain the school.

Upper Brookville is actually one of the few places in the greater NYC area has any significant demand for equine vets. But there are lots of associated jobs out there, too. One of my relatives works for a national lab that processes samples for vets; it was recently acquired by the Mars Corporation, which realized that there was big money in pet food, and in the whole industry.

Don't get me wrong: I think the whole enterprise is doomed, and LIU Post will regret it. But the people I know who work there are scrambling, and I'm trying to come up with some viable strategies.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 26, 2020, 03:35:26 PM
This is getting off topic and maybe should be a separate thread (I'm not complaining though), but the strategy I have adopted is to try to get a toehold in non-faculty work within the university -- i.e., assessment, retention, strategic planning, LMS management, etc. While I am still full-time faculty and have not converted to a staff or administrative position, my goal is to be front and center in administrators' minds when the possibility of doing so arises. There are multiple disadvantages to this strategy though -- namely that it takes time to cultivate relationships and to sufficiently demonstrate that one possesses the non-faculty skill sets that the university deems important. Also it's not going to be a possibility for everybody, if the university is shutting down multiple academic programs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ProfessorPlum on February 28, 2020, 06:13:00 PM
Budget cuts coming at Ohio University.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/ou-academic-colleges-asked-to-make-m-in-cuts/article_200ba02a-5a5a-11ea-b8ee-8f19440f1dae.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on February 28, 2020, 09:14:44 PM
That's going to be upsetting to a couple folks I know.

Sorry to hear it.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Chairman X on March 01, 2020, 09:28:09 AM
It's really sad what's going on at Ohio. It seems the problem is the structural triple whammy of (1) evaporating state support that makes public universities tuition-dependent; (2) demographic decline; and (3) state lawmakers' insistence on undermining university-level general education -- and hence viability -- by legislating that colleges must give credit for co-curricular high school course work and/or AP scores. OU's case may be a bit extreme because of its location in Appalachia, where there is limited demographic growth, and because it has several satellite campuses.

So what to do? The university could de-fund athletics (but would that reduce the university's appeal to potential undergraduates?) find new students, perhaps online (but aren't most other universities doing this too, hence chasing the same would-be students?) or to find some way out of the financial maze (but what could this be other than greater support from the state government?).

Seems like OU is simply a more heavily accentuated case of what so many other public universities are confronting...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on March 01, 2020, 10:03:20 AM
I only know of a couple of departments there, but OU's location in S. Ohio doesn't quite lead to the categorization of Appalachian, or at least to some of the connotations one might expect with that term.

Our dance history prof at OSU left to found their ("new") department there in the 70's, and several decades later, I was asked to help a student there edit and work up parts of her diss.

Her only real issue was time management: she had three exellent books packed into the thesis and was trying to  research and write them all.

People I knew from their associations with that prof have gone on to found significant performing companies (one is a Chevalier in the French honorific humanities awards system) and have been consistently productive, reliable scholars.

In editing the thesis I mentioned, the use of critical scholarship approaches from sociology and anthropology were also evident: I'm less qualified to judge those but they fit the topic and advanced the work (which--sorry, Derrida! I find not always to be the case...) so my surmise was that those areas were strong, also.

Having been raised and schooled first in Ohio, I'm careful not to generalize about its regions overmuch.

My grandfather on my mother's side came from the area near Athens, for one thing, and his readiness for schooling as an accountant was what got his family through the Depression with a reliable job when that was so often not the case.

It's true that populations in many areas are declining, and state governments are more and more resembling idiocracies when it comes to school funding, but one wants not to link quality to regional stereotypes where that might lead to inaccuracies.

(Ok, maybe I'm too close to be objective...)

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Chairman X on March 01, 2020, 01:04:26 PM
Quote from: mamselle on March 01, 2020, 10:03:20 AM
I only know of a couple of departments there, but OU's location in S. Ohio doesn't quite lead to the categorization of Appalachian, or at least to some of the connotations one might expect with that term.

I completely agree that determining "region" is not a science and contextually dependent. There are historical, social, and cultural elements at play in defining any region. But the faculty I know at OU do see themselves as serving Appalachia.

FWIW Appalachian Regional Commission not only places Athens County well within its boundaries but only last year downgraded Athens County to its lowest category of "distressed," meaning it falls into in the bottom 10% in terms of economic performance compared to all US counties. See https://www.arc.gov/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=672.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on March 01, 2020, 01:33:11 PM
OK, with those qualifications I can understand your reasoning.

I just get my feathers up a bit...

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 01, 2020, 02:00:09 PM
We as a culture are letting our educational system dissipate, sometimes even aggressively dismantling it.   
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 03, 2020, 12:44:18 PM
Northern Colorado to lay off employees (https://www.greeleytribune.com/news/local/university-of-northern-colorado-to-lay-off-as-many-as-65-employees-by-april/).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 03, 2020, 01:36:34 PM
John Brown University in Siloam Springs, Arkansas. 


https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/mar/03/jbu-cuts-12-workers-to-save-costs-20200/


They are laying off 12 employees, most of them reportedly not faculty.  No academic programs are being eliminated.  Enrollment is down 15% since 2014.  Not good, but not yet dire, apparently.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 06, 2020, 01:56:14 PM
State legislators have been questioning Henderson State University's former President and former VP of Finance and Administration about how and why the university fell so far into the red.  Former President Jones has resigned but will continue drawing pay into the summer, which has people upset.  For his part, he blames "the University culture already there when he came into the job in 2016."


https://www.kark.com/news/local-news/state-lawmakers-hear-testimony-from-henderson-state-university-leaders-on-financial-distress/



Incidentally, Henderson's $80 million of outstanding bond debt have been degraded, which leaves investors with a loss.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 11, 2020, 05:23:54 AM
Quote from: apostrophe on January 31, 2020, 09:06:27 AM
Quote from: Hibush on January 30, 2020, 05:28:26 AM
Quote from: apostrophe on January 29, 2020, 02:44:37 PM
Quote from: lcburgundy on January 28, 2020, 06:33:15 PM
Frank Lloyd Wright's School of Architecture at Taliesin will close

https://archpaper.com/2020/01/taliesin-to-close/

QuoteAccording to a statement by the Foundation, the decision to close the esteemed institution was made because the school "did not have a sustainable business model that would allow it to maintain its operations as an accredited program."

!!

I read the article and learned nothing, really. The problem must be money--but in what way?

One of the problems has been that the place has been driven by acolytes of Wright and adherents of his impractical organizational style. Tt has been difficult to maintain an institution that way sixty years after the charismatic leader's death. Wright's buildings and organizations both require an incredible amount of expensive maintenance, so the operating costs are far higher than conventional ones.

Here is a clip from a 2005 NY Times article t (https://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/24/garden/dissent-roils-wrights-world.html)hat gives some relevant background:
Quote from: Dissent Roils Wright's WorldAcademic recognition came only in 1987, when the Frank Lloyd Wright School of Architecture received accreditation from the Higher Learning Commission, a regional organization. In 1997 the National Architectural Accrediting Board also approved accreditation, enabling the school to grant architectural degrees.

But some people in the architecture world say that despite the accreditation and Wright's accomplishments and fame, Taliesin West has lost its way.

"It's an architectural theme park," said Reed Kroloff, dean of the architecture school at Tulane University, adding that "the rigid adherence to Wright's system is destroying the institution." Graduates of Taliesin, Mr. Kroloff said, "have to struggle to place themselves in the larger architectural community."

Thanks for the additional information. I imagine it is very difficult to balance fidelity to FLW's vision with (more) modern training standards. I'm less sympathetic to the problem of the buildings being expensive to maintain--that's true of a lot of great historic architecture--but if it's only half the problem it's a pity that someone couldn't have worked harder on the other half.

A revival effort is in the news. The program is uniquely small among other things. It has only 30 students, with $0.4 million in tuition revenue and $1.7 million in expenses. The school does not own the campus, and cannot afford the rent. It is not allowed to use the Wright name. The leadership is historically ambivalent about being accredited. Those are long odds.

Is there an optimistic version of the information in the linked article?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apostrophe on March 11, 2020, 10:33:40 AM
Quote from: Hibush on March 11, 2020, 05:23:54 AM
Quote from: apostrophe on January 31, 2020, 09:06:27 AM
Quote from: Hibush on January 30, 2020, 05:28:26 AM
Quote from: apostrophe on January 29, 2020, 02:44:37 PM
Quote from: lcburgundy on January 28, 2020, 06:33:15 PM
Frank Lloyd Wright's School of Architecture at Taliesin will close

https://archpaper.com/2020/01/taliesin-to-close/

QuoteAccording to a statement by the Foundation, the decision to close the esteemed institution was made because the school "did not have a sustainable business model that would allow it to maintain its operations as an accredited program."

!!

I read the article and learned nothing, really. The problem must be money--but in what way?

One of the problems has been that the place has been driven by acolytes of Wright and adherents of his impractical organizational style. Tt has been difficult to maintain an institution that way sixty years after the charismatic leader's death. Wright's buildings and organizations both require an incredible amount of expensive maintenance, so the operating costs are far higher than conventional ones.

Here is a clip from a 2005 NY Times article t (https://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/24/garden/dissent-roils-wrights-world.html)hat gives some relevant background:
Quote from: Dissent Roils Wright's WorldAcademic recognition came only in 1987, when the Frank Lloyd Wright School of Architecture received accreditation from the Higher Learning Commission, a regional organization. In 1997 the National Architectural Accrediting Board also approved accreditation, enabling the school to grant architectural degrees.

But some people in the architecture world say that despite the accreditation and Wright's accomplishments and fame, Taliesin West has lost its way.

"It's an architectural theme park," said Reed Kroloff, dean of the architecture school at Tulane University, adding that "the rigid adherence to Wright's system is destroying the institution." Graduates of Taliesin, Mr. Kroloff said, "have to struggle to place themselves in the larger architectural community."

Thanks for the additional information. I imagine it is very difficult to balance fidelity to FLW's vision with (more) modern training standards. I'm less sympathetic to the problem of the buildings being expensive to maintain--that's true of a lot of great historic architecture--but if it's only half the problem it's a pity that someone couldn't have worked harder on the other half.

A revival effort is in the news. The program is uniquely small among other things. It has only 30 students, with $0.4 million in tuition revenue and $1.7 million in expenses. The school does not own the campus, and cannot afford the rent. It is not allowed to use the Wright name. The leadership is historically ambivalent about being accredited. Those are long odds.

Is there an optimistic version of the information in the linked article?

"Fight unfolds" doesn't seem optimistic.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 18, 2020, 12:19:10 PM
Palomar College, a 24-000 student Southern California community college, was assigned a fiscal monitor  (https://www.kpbs.org/news/2020/mar/17/state-names-fiscal-monitor-oversee-palomar-college/)in an attempt to rein in its ongoing financial crisis.  State officials that it could go broke in two years, having a growing deficit and what state auditors called "a long history of inadequate practices."

In faculty governance-related angle, the faculty voted 92% no confidence in the president last fall for squandering money on a presidential suite. She will resign now with a golden parachute of $600,000.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 23, 2020, 08:38:33 PM
USA Today has a readable overview of the current problems for small colleges, especially this year. (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2020/03/21/coronavirus-college-students-online-closing-private-liberal-arts/2889546001/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Academic_cog on March 23, 2020, 08:59:02 PM
Art Institute of San Francisco:

https://www.kqed.org/arts/13877340/san-francisco-art-institute-to-close-at-end-of-spring-semester
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ProfessorPlum on March 24, 2020, 02:22:04 AM
Note Dame de Namur University is not accepting any new students.

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/03/24/notre-dame-de-namur-not-accepting-new-students
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on March 24, 2020, 08:11:48 AM
It's sounding like a Pac-man scenario: the big get bigger and the small get smaller...or eaten.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 24, 2020, 06:02:49 PM
Quinnipiac announces salary cuts that start in April (https://www.newhavenindependent.org/index.php/archives/entry/quinnipiac_cuts_salaries/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 24, 2020, 06:08:06 PM
Central Washington University declares financial exigency (https://twitter.com/danbauman77/status/1242495772047945729)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 24, 2020, 09:07:23 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 24, 2020, 06:02:49 PM
Quinnipiac announces salary cuts that start in April (https://www.newhavenindependent.org/index.php/archives/entry/quinnipiac_cuts_salaries/)

Quote from: polly_mer on March 24, 2020, 06:08:06 PM
Central Washington University declares financial exigency (https://twitter.com/danbauman77/status/1242495772047945729)

The government is handing out cash in an attempt to stave off disaster. 

These folks should be in line.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 25, 2020, 03:07:19 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 24, 2020, 09:07:23 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 24, 2020, 06:02:49 PM
Quinnipiac announces salary cuts that start in April (https://www.newhavenindependent.org/index.php/archives/entry/quinnipiac_cuts_salaries/)

Quote from: polly_mer on March 24, 2020, 06:08:06 PM
Central Washington University declares financial exigency (https://twitter.com/danbauman77/status/1242495772047945729)

The government is handing out cash in an attempt to stave off disaster. 

These folks should be in line.


Surprisingly, only HBCUs have taken that initiative  (https://diverseeducation.com/article/170516/)so far AFAIK. And they had the Thurgood Marshall Fund and UNCF get in line on their behalf with a rather modest ask of $1.5 billion.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 25, 2020, 05:00:33 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 24, 2020, 09:07:23 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 24, 2020, 06:02:49 PM
Quinnipiac announces salary cuts that start in April (https://www.newhavenindependent.org/index.php/archives/entry/quinnipiac_cuts_salaries/)

Quote from: polly_mer on March 24, 2020, 06:08:06 PM
Central Washington University declares financial exigency (https://twitter.com/danbauman77/status/1242495772047945729)

The government is handing out cash in an attempt to stave off disaster. 

These folks should be in line.
That's a lovely thought.  Cross all your digits for them. The big wave of similar announcements that's just around the corner isn't going to be helped all that much by fixing the temporary cash flow problem due to COVID-19.

For those who need the very short version of the state of higher ed even before COVID-19 stressed the system:

2016 Report: "It would be a mistake, however, for college and university officials to think that this period of financial distress and the public's unease about the value of a degree is in any way temporary." ... "some 800 institutions face critical strategic challenges because of their inefficiencies or their small size."  (https://cdn.ey.com/parthenon/pdf/perspectives/P-EY_Strength-in-Numbers-Collaboration-Strategies_Paper_Final_082016.pdf)

Dec 2018: "it's not that hard to paint a picture of how 25% of existing institutions—be it 550 nonprofit and public four-year institutions or 1,100 degree-granting institutions—close, merge or declare bankruptcy in the years ahead." (https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelhorn/2018/12/13/will-half-of-all-colleges-really-close-in-the-next-decade/#19abdd3452e5)

Feb 2019: A contributing factor to higher ed woes are the trustees who know little or nothing about higher education or its problems."Less than 10 percent of these trustees have any professional experience in higher education. One cannot imagine a company board in which such a small percentage of members understood its core mission, strategies, financing, competition, and competitive advantage." (https://academeblog.org/2019/02/22/unprepared-trustees-problem-higher-education/)

Mar 2019: "especially small, private liberal arts schools, have been operating similarly to how someone might live paycheck to paycheck, some having survived that way for 20 years or more at this point."..."Colleges and universities will have too much capacity and not enough demand at a time when the economic model in higher education is already straining under its own weight," <Marty Meehan, president of UMass> said. "Make no mistake – this is an existential threat to entire sectors of higher education. And New England, unfortunately, is ground zero." (https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2019-03-22/college-closings-signal-start-of-a-crisis-in-higher-education)

Apr 2019: "Some 800 institutions face similar <to recently closed Mount Ida College> 'critical strategic challenges' because they're operated inefficiently or are very small, according to the consulting firm Parthenon-EY Education."..."Picking away at the problems in what he called incremental ways, however, isn't equal to the magnitude of the crisis, <Brian Mitchell former president of Bucknell University> said. "If in fact you're practicing incrementalism, then you're in real danger now and could be in grave danger shortly," he said. (https://hechingerreport.org/as-small-private-colleges-keep-closing-some-are-fighting-back/)

Dec 2019: "Moody's Investor Services estimates 1 in 5 small private colleges faces 'fundamental stress' due to declining revenues, rising expenses and little pricing power when it comes to tuition"..."Most colleges operate as long as they can. What typically causes them to close is that they run out of cash. It's like any other business a liquidity problem. And therefore, the closures are not always orderly" (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/03/the-other-college-debt-crisis-schools-are-going-broke.html)

COVID-19 is exacerbating existing problems of being on the ragged edge.  However, the problems already existed and, like the unicyclist juggling chainsaws while riding in heavy traffic, the tragedy was just waiting for any sort of blip to occur.  The entities who just need a little cash to get by during the worst of the crisis haven't even begun to feel the hurt yet.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 25, 2020, 07:45:38 AM
You're right.  This is likely to prove a final straw for quite a few institutions.  Even if there is a significant federal effort at bailout, it is likely not to be enough to give many places even a reprieve, given a blow this severe.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 25, 2020, 08:47:56 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 25, 2020, 07:45:38 AM
You're right.  This is likely to prove a final straw for quite a few institutions.  Even if there is a significant federal effort at bailout, it is likely not to be enough to give many places even a reprieve, given a blow this severe.

Personally I'd rather see the cruise-lines get the bailout.  Not!

Polly's list, as always, is very daunting and demoralizing.

If there is hope it is that America will comprehend the economic dangers facing higher ed and respond by mobilizing the vast wealth of the country to save our colleges.  People do care.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 25, 2020, 09:58:22 AM
Forbes (https://flipboard.com/topic/education/coronavirus-silver-lining-easier-to-get-into-many-top-colleges/a-ErOK__n6S9aXN2hrNzi10A%3Aa%3A3199486-08e4012817%2Fforbes.com), unsurprisingly, sees an opportunity for the hyperwealthy.

With international travel down, recruiting visits to colleges are curtailed and the prospects for matriculation as well. That means some good colleges will be seeing sharply lower yields of international full-pay admits. The great news (from the forbesian perspective) is that weaker domestic full-pay applicants will now be admitted for the coming fall.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 25, 2020, 12:04:37 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 25, 2020, 08:47:56 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 25, 2020, 07:45:38 AM
You're right.  This is likely to prove a final straw for quite a few institutions.  Even if there is a significant federal effort at bailout, it is likely not to be enough to give many places even a reprieve, given a blow this severe.

Personally I'd rather see the cruise-lines get the bailout.  Not!

Polly's list, as always, is very daunting and demoralizing.

If there is hope it is that America will comprehend the economic dangers facing higher ed and respond by mobilizing the vast wealth of the country to save our colleges.  People do care.

To clarify, I'm not trying to say that emergency federal aid to higher education would be useless.  If it's intelligently applied and can arrive in time, it might make a difference for some schools.  But polly's probably right that some are already too far gone.

Realistically, any aid would probably have to be targeted toward areas where it might be expected to do the most good.  The HCBUs and their allied organizations have already made the ask.  They can point to a specific mission serving a specific historically under-served demographic to help them make their case.  What other sorts of institutions might be able to make a specific case for why they're deserving?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on March 25, 2020, 07:41:26 PM
There are too many sources of uncertainty to try to predict the effect on colleges and universities.

It all comes down to enrollment. One reason enrollment was down was because there were fewer high school graduates.

Another was that the job market was really good. If you graduated from high school, you could get a decent enough job, so you didn't go to college. If you graduated from college, you could get a decent enough job (in spite of many claims to the contrary, it's true), so you didn't go to grad school. Those opportunities are now gone.

There are loads of other changes that can happen to the economy and to society as a result. It's way too early to say. There's no reason to be pessimistic or optimistic.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 25, 2020, 09:11:01 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 25, 2020, 12:04:37 PM
To clarify, I'm not trying to say that emergency federal aid to higher education would be useless.  If it's intelligently applied and can arrive in time, it might make a difference for some schools.  But polly's probably right that some are already too far gone.

Perhaps. Polly is very well informed about these things.  I've been reading her links, however.  She does tend to cherry-pick to represent gloom-and-doom, and that's not always the case with these things I'm reading.  I'll post later.

I do think we at least need to give these schools a fighting chance. 

I'm reminded of the business major who corrected my percentages about small business success rates: in total, 85 to 95 percent of small businesses will fail within years 1 to 5 of opening; 70 percent of these surviving businesses will go broke by their tenth year anniversary.  Undoubtedly COVID relief funds are being funneled to business that will fail and would have failed no matter what.  No one is talking about withholding funds from these small businesses----if anything, the ethical weight is on helping small businesses survive.  I don't see why colleges are any different.  There is a mass of people who will be unemployed, careers of all sorts broken, if we let these institutions fail.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 26, 2020, 05:03:51 AM
Wahoo wants something other than doom and gloom on a thread that is explicitly about pointing to doom and gloom. Well, let's give that a go since these are interesting times.

The elite institutions are going to make it, but are likely to be transformed through their experiences in the coming couple of years.  This might finally be the tipping point in some cases to implement good, non-academic support for the students who start with minimal social capital.  With a lot of experienced, excellent faculty out of work, this might be the time that elite institution make more of an effort to hire full-time teaching faculty for undergrads and split off research faculty to focus primarily on graduate education.  That's more good jobs overall, although many people will have to move from dying regions to more expensive regions, which will be a bridge too far for some excellent teachers who will go out and do something else fabulous in the world.

The small institutions that are doing a very good job and have sufficient resources to weather this year are likely to be in great shape for the coming years.  By consolidating students who want a personalized education that allows for exploration in a learning community, this sector of education won't die.  It will have far fewer campuses, but the campuses are likely to be more vibrant.  Why more vibrant?  The institutions in less desirable places will be able to hire the displaced excellent faculty who otherwise wouldn't consider such a location, but are on board with having a great job in a good enough town.  However, this rosy picture requires institutions to announce their impending closures early enough in the process to free up faculty to search for a whole year or even three instead of just putting on the streets at the end of a term the remaining handful of people who already couldn't get other jobs in a tight market.

The regional comprehensives may be winners as the region consolidates into fewer higher education institutions available.  Spreading 10000 students over 10 institutions is a different situation than having 9000 of those students go to one institution and 1000 students leave the region for either the small LACs open elsewhere or an elite institution.  Again by consolidating, more good faculty jobs could be a result as the institutions stop competing so hard for students who can't/won't/don't leave the region anyway and can redirect resources into having a solid education.

This could be an opportunity for faculty who are experts in online education to get jobs somewhere distant from where they live and have those jobs be good enough jobs.  While many institutions will go back to their on-campus instruction as soon as possible, other institutions may find their students ask for additional online education.  The Consortium for Online Humanities Instruction is likely to pick up additional institutional members and perhaps be more open to faculty who aren't affiliated with the on-campus instruction. (https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/article/2019/08/14/what-consortium-liberal-arts-colleges-learned-about-online)  By focusing on offering a larger curriculum to augment on-campus programs, the faculty teaching in these programs are likely to have better jobs than with the for-profits that have been closing.

As many adults go for additional education in the foreseeable wave of unemployment, adults in dying regions where they have good community/family support are likely to stay physically put and go online for that education.  That means faculty who want to teach online may have additional options for employment and possibly good enough full-time employment with reputable institutions who are expanding their online offerings.  Community colleges are likely to see an increase in enrollment and it's very likely those institutions would be able to advocate for COVID-19 additional funds to support their mission of getting America back to work.

On a more individual level, this may be the time that educated people forced out of their normal comfort zone end up becoming community leaders in something or otherwise find something else they would like to do as a full-time job.  That's not everyone, but some people may discover things they'd rather do, are more day-to-day satisfying than their recent academic job, and develop networks for paid work outside of academia.  Those folks will then likely go on to other things and make the academic job market a little less tight while having a better individual outcome.

However, none of this rosy picture happens if everyone clings to returning to the recent past exactly as it was while somehow ignoring that the higher ed landscape had a lot of doom and gloom for valid reasons.  Distributing money to make these kinds of changes is a far better use of the money than trying to ensure nothing fails.  At this point, just sending individual human beings monthly checks for $1000 to do whatever their household needs is a better use of our tax dollars than trying to prop up hundreds of institutions that should consolidate, drastically change mission, or straight up close and redistribute humans.

At no point, though, do we end up with enough good faculty jobs for everyone who is qualified and wants one without large numbers of people deciding they would rather do something else and taking themselves out of the academic pool.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 26, 2020, 06:02:52 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 26, 2020, 05:03:51 AM

This could be an opportunity for faculty who are experts in online education to get jobs somewhere distant from where they live and have those jobs be good enough jobs.  While many institutions will go back to their on-campus instruction as soon as possible, other institutions may find their students ask for additional online education.  The Consortium for Online Humanities Instruction is likely to pick up additional institutional members and perhaps be more open to faculty who aren't affiliated with the on-campus instruction. (https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/article/2019/08/14/what-consortium-liberal-arts-colleges-learned-about-online)  By focusing on offering a larger curriculum to augment on-campus programs, the faculty teaching in these programs are likely to have better jobs than with the for-profits that have been closing.


In this vein, I think the current situation will advance online learning at all levels by about at least a decade.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 26, 2020, 07:12:32 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 26, 2020, 05:03:51 AM
Wahoo wants something other than doom and gloom on a thread that is explicitly about pointing to doom and gloom. Well, let's give that a go since these are interesting times.

I want neither CNN nor Fox news, ghost peppers nor pure vanilla, a kick in the teeth nor a Swedish massage (really I don't; I had a professional massage once----it was oily and disgusting).

Neither do I want rose-tinted glasses nor gloom-and-doom.

I want objective, un-filtered info as much as possible.  If there is expert opinion I want the whole opinion and not a cherry-picked excerpt.

And I appreciate your observations and opinions, Polly, I really do (obviously I read them) but you have an agenda.  Why I cannot understand.  I suspect it is something personal whether or not you consciously recognize it.

I too have an agenda which I believe is pretty rational.

Quote from: polly_mer on March 26, 2020, 05:03:51 AM
At no point, though, do we end up with enough good faculty jobs for everyone who is qualified and wants one without large numbers of people deciding they would rather do something else and taking themselves out of the academic pool.

This is when someone logs and asks us to move the conversation elsewhere.  But yeeeeeesssss we know. 

My point has always been that there is plenty of work for almost everyone, we simply have short-changed our own system.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 26, 2020, 09:12:42 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 26, 2020, 06:02:52 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 26, 2020, 05:03:51 AM

This could be an opportunity for faculty who are experts in online education to get jobs somewhere distant from where they live and have those jobs be good enough jobs.  While many institutions will go back to their on-campus instruction as soon as possible, other institutions may find their students ask for additional online education.  The Consortium for Online Humanities Instruction is likely to pick up additional institutional members and perhaps be more open to faculty who aren't affiliated with the on-campus instruction. (https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/article/2019/08/14/what-consortium-liberal-arts-colleges-learned-about-online)  By focusing on offering a larger curriculum to augment on-campus programs, the faculty teaching in these programs are likely to have better jobs than with the for-profits that have been closing.


In this vein, I think the current situation will advance online learning at all levels by about at least a decade.

I went to the COHI website, and there is no indication that the effort continued. Are the still doing the courses within the consortium that developed them?

I saw in the report that there was no cost savings at all. So no direct benefit for college finances. The instructors also indicated that they were not able to develop individual relationships with the online students. Those relationships are a big selling point for the very small at-risk colleges. Would that limit small colleges' use of the online courses to a few here and there to complement the local curriculum?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 26, 2020, 09:18:48 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 26, 2020, 07:12:32 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 26, 2020, 05:03:51 AM
Wahoo wants something other than doom and gloom on a thread that is explicitly about pointing to doom and gloom. Well, let's give that a go since these are interesting times.
...
Neither do I want rose-tinted glasses nor gloom-and-doom.

I want objective, un-filtered info as much as possible.  If there is expert opinion I want the whole opinion and not a cherry-picked excerpt.



Thanks for the explicit check in on what makes this interesting to you.

We have two popular gloom-and-doom threads, dire straits and doomed humanities.  I attribute their popularity to three attractions. One is shadenfreude, another is to gauge whether institutions or disciplines on hard times resemble ours so that we can get out while the getting is good, and last is to see whether we are avoiding the pitfalls that are causing others to succumb.

Is that about right?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: AmLitHist on March 26, 2020, 09:25:21 AM
Traditionally community colleges do well during economic downturns.  We'll see what my place looks like by fall. In the 2008+ recession, we were bursting at the seams, until enrollment started declining around 2012-13.  (Part of that downturn, no doubt, was related to institutional problems and reputation at my particular CC.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on March 26, 2020, 09:25:56 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 26, 2020, 06:02:52 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 26, 2020, 05:03:51 AM

This could be an opportunity for faculty who are experts in online education to get jobs somewhere distant from where they live and have those jobs be good enough jobs.  While many institutions will go back to their on-campus instruction as soon as possible, other institutions may find their students ask for additional online education.  The Consortium for Online Humanities Instruction is likely to pick up additional institutional members and perhaps be more open to faculty who aren't affiliated with the on-campus instruction. (https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/article/2019/08/14/what-consortium-liberal-arts-colleges-learned-about-online)  By focusing on offering a larger curriculum to augment on-campus programs, the faculty teaching in these programs are likely to have better jobs than with the for-profits that have been closing.


In this vein, I think the current situation will advance online learning at all levels by about at least a decade.

It might advance the incorporation of online elements into traditional classes by a decade (no need for a binary view of education at this point, which really hasn't been accurate for a long time). It is more likely to set back the move to online-only instruction by a decade by giving students a bad experience.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on March 26, 2020, 10:14:16 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on March 26, 2020, 09:25:21 AM
Traditionally community colleges do well during economic downturns.  We'll see what my place looks like by fall. In the 2008+ recession, we were bursting at the seams, until enrollment started declining around 2012-13.  (Part of that downturn, no doubt, was related to institutional problems and reputation at my particular CC.)

At our CC, the improving economy led to declining enrollment. The resulting financial problems exposed a lot of dysfunction which had been bought off during the flush years.

The institutional problems had always been there. But as they say, when the tide goes out, you learn who has been swimming naked.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 26, 2020, 11:04:38 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on March 26, 2020, 09:25:56 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 26, 2020, 06:02:52 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 26, 2020, 05:03:51 AM

This could be an opportunity for faculty who are experts in online education to get jobs somewhere distant from where they live and have those jobs be good enough jobs.  While many institutions will go back to their on-campus instruction as soon as possible, other institutions may find their students ask for additional online education.  The Consortium for Online Humanities Instruction is likely to pick up additional institutional members and perhaps be more open to faculty who aren't affiliated with the on-campus instruction. (https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/article/2019/08/14/what-consortium-liberal-arts-colleges-learned-about-online)  By focusing on offering a larger curriculum to augment on-campus programs, the faculty teaching in these programs are likely to have better jobs than with the for-profits that have been closing.


In this vein, I think the current situation will advance online learning at all levels by about at least a decade.

It might advance the incorporation of online elements into traditional classes by a decade (no need for a binary view of education at this point, which really hasn't been accurate for a long time). It is more likely to set back the move to online-only instruction by a decade by giving students a bad experience.

It will be interesting to see how that plays out. The fact that basically all faculty have been forced to develop some familiarity with online platforms undercuts a lot of resistance on the basis of lack of exposure to the tools. But as you say, this will point out all of the problems on the student end due to factors including bandwidth limits, personal technology budgets, etc. in addition to the pedagogical issues.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 26, 2020, 11:34:38 AM
Quote from: Hibush on March 26, 2020, 09:18:48 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 26, 2020, 07:12:32 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 26, 2020, 05:03:51 AM
Wahoo wants something other than doom and gloom on a thread that is explicitly about pointing to doom and gloom. Well, let's give that a go since these are interesting times.
...
Neither do I want rose-tinted glasses nor gloom-and-doom.

I want objective, un-filtered info as much as possible.  If there is expert opinion I want the whole opinion and not a cherry-picked excerpt.



Thanks for the explicit check in on what makes this interesting to you.

We have two popular gloom-and-doom threads, dire straits and doomed humanities.  I attribute their popularity to three attractions. One is shadenfreude, another is to gauge whether institutions or disciplines on hard times resemble ours so that we can get out while the getting is good, and last is to see whether we are avoiding the pitfalls that are causing others to succumb.

Is that about right?

I would also like peeps to include anything that might, say, change the course of events and strive to save our colleges.

Whenever anyone, mainly me, posts something to that effect it seems to irritate or even make other posters angry.  I find this strange.

I am a bit flummoxed by the defeatism of academics. Dread is one thing, lack of resilience is another.  I suspect it is the nature of our individualistic jobs that we don't think of ourselves as a cohesive whole.  United workers have changed a lot of things, for the good and the bad...somehow we lack that perspective. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 26, 2020, 11:48:13 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on March 25, 2020, 07:41:26 PM
There are too many sources of uncertainty to try to predict the effect on colleges and universities.

[. . .]

There are loads of other changes that can happen to the economy and to society as a result. It's way too early to say. There's no reason to be pessimistic or optimistic.

I recommend looking at power laws and exceedance probability curves. Car crashes are low frequency events but they are statistically near-certain among a large enough group of drivers over a sufficient period of time. Potential harm? Ranges from scratched paint to death. A lot of work usually goes into prevention of the latter. As for the former, not so much.

I happen to be employed at a university that has had twelve years since the 2008 recession to work out how to best mitigate the effects of the next financial catastrophe. It did nothing but hire consultants at a cost of a few million dollars to provide recommendations that were intuitively obvious to the most casual observer, and those recommendations were never implemented. So now determining the likeliness of the university's survival is basically a coin toss. There are probably many other universities in the USA in the same situation. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 26, 2020, 11:51:26 AM
My agenda is to get as many people as possible to get out of looming and entirely predictable bad situations, like the known small business failure rate.

Yep, some people will get to have a fabulous TT position with a personally desirable mix of teaching, research, and service.  That number is fewer all the time compared to the number of people who are qualified for those positions.

I came here just now to post  Predicting the pandemic's long-term impact on higher education (https://insidehighered.com/blogs/higher-ed-gamma/what-lies-ahead).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on March 26, 2020, 11:59:11 AM
Quote from: spork on March 26, 2020, 11:48:13 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on March 25, 2020, 07:41:26 PM
There are too many sources of uncertainty to try to predict the effect on colleges and universities.

[. . .]

There are loads of other changes that can happen to the economy and to society as a result. It's way too early to say. There's no reason to be pessimistic or optimistic.

I recommend looking at power laws and exceedance probability curves. Car crashes are low frequency events but they are statistically near-certain among a large enough group of drivers over a sufficient period of time. Potential harm? Ranges from scratched paint to death. A lot of work usually goes into prevention of the latter. As for the former, not so much.

I happen to be employed at a university that has had twelve years since the 2008 recession to work out how to best mitigate the effects of the next financial catastrophe. It did nothing but hire consultants at a cost of a few million dollars to provide recommendations that were intuitively obvious to the most casual observer, and those recommendations were never implemented. So now determining the likeliness of the university's survival is basically a coin toss. There are probably many other universities in the USA in the same situation.

There are definitely some that will be pushed over the edge by this. On the other hand, there are some that will be saved by it. They'll be able to market themselves to high school seniors for whom the job market has suddenly vanished. They'll draw older students without a college degree, people that want another certification, and people that want a grad degree to boost their chances. They'll accommodate students that want to live at home, provide them with good financial aid options, raise money for scholarships, etc. There's nothing about this crisis that implies institutions of higher ed are going to be hurt.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 26, 2020, 12:32:52 PM
The specific effect of this health cum economic catastrophe is to impose costs on everybody immediately. This is clearly bad for higher education.

However, one can say that a temporary negative economic shock by itself is good for higher education, temporarily, of course, and after the health problem gets fixed. During a negative shock when it's hard to find a job, people go to study. When they are finished, and the economy has recovered, these new students will not be replaced.

All this overlaid on a longer term decline in the college age cohorts, and perhaps a temporary decline in foreign students.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 26, 2020, 01:50:06 PM
Quote from: Hibush on March 26, 2020, 09:18:48 AM

We have two popular gloom-and-doom threads, dire straits and doomed humanities.  I attribute their popularity to three attractions. One is shadenfreude, another is to gauge whether institutions or disciplines on hard times resemble ours so that we can get out while the getting is good, and last is to see whether we are avoiding the pitfalls that are causing others to succumb.

Is that about right?

Well, speaking as somebody who long ago left the employ of a university, but still cares about the world of higher education, I read this thread mainly to get an idea of the sorts of challenges that institutions of higher ed face as they try to adapt to the changing world and stay in business.  This thread, and its predecessor at the old fora, has been very educational in that respect.  Which makes it frustrating during those periods when it comes to be dominated by certain recurring arguments by posters whose positions were already made clear to all quite some time back. 

I appreciate the recent posts above that are trying to grapple with the effects that the epidemic crisis might have on higher ed--on all of them, whatever the POV expressed.  They give us food for thought. 

If it's not too much to ask, does anybody have any thoughts re my question above, about what sorts of institutions besides HCBUs might try to make a case for why they deserve special consideration in any allocation of federal bailout funds?  I'm betting that somebody here might have some useful perspectives on that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 26, 2020, 01:56:37 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 26, 2020, 11:51:26 AM
I came here just now to post  Predicting the pandemic's long-term impact on higher education (https://insidehighered.com/blogs/higher-ed-gamma/what-lies-ahead).

Thank you.  Very interesting article.  Makes a good case for how the epidemic is likely to reinforce certain trends. 

I also liked the Henry James quote at the beginning.  It's refreshing right now to see an article quoting some literary figure besides Camus!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 26, 2020, 02:13:04 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 26, 2020, 11:51:26 AM
My agenda is to get as many people as possible to get out of looming and entirely predictable bad situations, like the known small business failure rate.

Yep, some people will get to have a fabulous TT position with a personally desirable mix of teaching, research, and service.  That number is fewer all the time compared to the number of people who are qualified for those positions.

Laudable.

Now aggressively acknowledging that there is no silver bullet or perfect solution, what can we do to change the course of events?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 26, 2020, 04:18:31 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 26, 2020, 01:50:06 PM

If it's not too much to ask, does anybody have any thoughts re my question above, about what sorts of institutions besides HCBUs might try to make a case for why they deserve special consideration in any allocation of federal bailout funds?  I'm betting that somebody here might have some useful perspectives on that.

Historically, those most successful at getting legislative consideration in this kind of situation (i.e. "Never waste a good crisis") are are in first, and are the loudest at saying "I need money!"

A lot of intellectuals waste time, energy and access developing justifications and thoughtful explanations of why they need money. But in a crisis, the fact that you are ever present and ever pressing is what matters. The consequences of that disparity in approach has long-lasting effects that include a lot of the challenges we see today in higher education funding and the financial condition of some of our students.

I expect the for-profits to be "nimble" enough to mount a respectable effort. State universities in some places will be late to the table, and at the state-capitol rather than the US Congress, so the returns will be lower. But many of those have enough influence to get some concessions.

The small privates in dire financial straits?

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 26, 2020, 04:28:32 PM
Lobbying is is not a promising path for the many. For the few, just call yourself "Kennedy Center" and get reams of cash. :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on March 26, 2020, 05:18:47 PM
The Kennedy Center is a performing arts site in Washington, DC.

Do you mean the "Kennedy School for Government" at Harvard?

That might make more sense.

-=-=-=-

My original intention was simply to say, "never heard this saying before, but it's hilariously apt":

QuoteBut as they say, when the tide goes out, you learn who has been swimming naked.

-=-=-=-

And, in answer to apl68:

A group of schools that might be able to make a case for support would be the theological seminaries, colleges, and departments (usually under the umbrella of the ATS--Association of Theological Schools) since so many have declined or died in the past few years.

Those remaining could both point to their current fragility and their useful insights into human motivation, philosophy, and ethics as one of the driving elements in the responses to current issues. Chaplains, in particular, whether in hospitals or other institutions, have organizations that can help with the care of individuals in need and the insight into death and dying and the processes of morbidity and end-of-life care that families and others need.

Those programs are often already stretched since their students are often already in some forms of ministry which pay slightly, but never enough, and with the decline in respectful evaluation of the life of faith, and an overriding cynicism about its place in global cultures of any kind, those who can make their needs known in clear, unbiased ways might be able to submit a grantworthy proposal.

For those of us who do take faith seriously, it is important to uphold those aspects that are valuable to humanity as a whole. For others who, for whatever reason, do not, it is worthwhile to consider that, whether you agree with a denomination's precepts or had bad experiences in some setting, not all denominations are alike, not all faith communities are alike, not all religious leaders are bad actors (although there are some....see my note on Falwell yesterday) and many of those who study the precepts of faith and seek to live by them are doing so with careful, respectful approaches to the rest of the world, including its various faith communities and belief systems, wherever possible.

Anyway, I think that would be one group that might have reason to put a project together and apply--I can think of some folks who might already be on it, in fact.

M.
   
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 26, 2020, 05:23:58 PM
Oh, I meant the Kennedy Center, Washington, DC!

It makes a lot of sense: They seem to be special. :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on March 26, 2020, 05:36:14 PM
Quote from: mamselle on March 26, 2020, 05:18:47 PM
The Kennedy Center is a performing arts site in Washington, DC.

Do you mean the "Kennedy School for Government" at Harvard?

That might make more sense.


Oops, just saw the news article referring to the WDC institution...apologies.


Hmmmmmm....

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 26, 2020, 07:29:50 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 26, 2020, 01:56:37 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 26, 2020, 11:51:26 AM
I came here just now to post  Predicting the pandemic's long-term impact on higher education (https://insidehighered.com/blogs/higher-ed-gamma/what-lies-ahead).

Thank you.  Very interesting article.  Makes a good case for how the epidemic is likely to reinforce certain trends. 


It is interesting.  It is also highly conjectural.  Some of the statements seem pretty noncontroversial and overt ("Expect more colleges to falter."), while others seem pretty speculative ("Expect pressure to expand online learning options at the undergraduate level to mount").  From what I've seen online teaching is not going to go very well overall.  I am not sure that students are going to want more of the experience as most of us scramble to migrate and trim our classes with virtually no warning.  And how many young people are going to want to stay home with mom and dad or launch into a PT job while trying to complete a bachelor's when they could be back in the dorm getting wasted, meeting love interests, actually interacting with professors, etc.?

I certainly can't say, but I think it is way too soon to make predictions about what is going to happen.  This pandemic and its effects are unprecedented.   
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 27, 2020, 05:39:36 AM
We have an assessment of how effective higher education was (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/03/26/disappointed-college-leaders-and-student-debt-advocates-look-next-round-stimulus) in the effort to get money in the emergency stimulus package.

The sector's lobbying was led by the American Council on Education. The ask was $50 billion, and they got $14 billion. Of that, HBCUs got 1.4 billion of their $1.5 billion ask. Higher ed is a ~$600 billion industry, so $14 billion represents a little over a week of operating cost.

Who will get that money? $9 billion is distributed based on the Pell-eligible FTE enrollment. That money will go to large colleges with many low-income students. $3 billion is distributed according to non-Pell enrollment. The rest goes to HBCUs. Online-only students (pre-crisis) don't count in the formula.

Congress tried to put in a backstop to prevent states from reducing their higher ed budgets in the coming year. Analysts are skeptical that the provision will work because the Secretary of Education can issue waivers and she's inclined to do that.

There is very strong opposition to any kind of blanket student loan forgiveness, which is the first priority of some constituencies. For those of limited means, there is only some wiggle room in the enrollment continuity requirement for Pell for the next six months.

This allocation appears to have little in it for small private colleges, for those that are struggling with cash flow, or for those who have invested a lot in fully online education.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 27, 2020, 04:02:02 PM
MacMurray College will close at the end of the semester:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/03/27/macmurray-college-closing-end-semester (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/03/27/macmurray-college-closing-end-semester).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on March 27, 2020, 04:27:52 PM
A friend once taught there for about three years, about ten years ago.

She high-tailed it down the road to another nearby school after that.

Sounds like a close miss.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 27, 2020, 04:51:46 PM
Quote from: mamselle on March 27, 2020, 04:27:52 PM
A friend once taught there for about three years, about ten years ago.

She high-tailed it down the road to another nearby school after that.

Sounds like a close miss.

M.

There will be more that close at the end of this semester.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 27, 2020, 04:54:19 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 26, 2020, 02:13:04 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 26, 2020, 11:51:26 AM
My agenda is to get as many people as possible to get out of looming and entirely predictable bad situations, like the known small business failure rate.

Yep, some people will get to have a fabulous TT position with a personally desirable mix of teaching, research, and service.  That number is fewer all the time compared to the number of people who are qualified for those positions.

Laudable.

Now aggressively acknowledging that there is no silver bullet or perfect solution, what can we do to change the course of events?

Give a one-sentence goal of what you think the problem to be solved is and I'll give it a shot.

I expect we will continue to have a non-meeting of the minds because the events you want to change cannot be changed in a way that is satisfactory to you.

My best recommendation remains that individuals who have a graduate education continue to seek jobs outside academia that are intellectually satisfying enough and pay enough to support a good enough life.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 27, 2020, 04:59:31 PM
Quote from: spork on March 27, 2020, 04:51:46 PM
Quote from: mamselle on March 27, 2020, 04:27:52 PM
A friend once taught there for about three years, about ten years ago.

She high-tailed it down the road to another nearby school after that.

Sounds like a close miss.

M.

There will be more that close at the end of this semester.

Yep, MacMurray is just the first of the small colleges that have been circling the drain for a good decade or more and finally went down. 

More than 10 years ago, there was concern about several small colleges in rural Illinois including MacMurray: https://www.kirksvilledailyexpress.com/x1898853562/Private-colleges-facing-tight-squeeze-in-poor-economy
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 27, 2020, 06:38:19 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 27, 2020, 04:54:19 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 26, 2020, 02:13:04 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 26, 2020, 11:51:26 AM
My agenda is to get as many people as possible to get out of looming and entirely predictable bad situations, like the known small business failure rate.

Yep, some people will get to have a fabulous TT position with a personally desirable mix of teaching, research, and service.  That number is fewer all the time compared to the number of people who are qualified for those positions.

Laudable.

Now aggressively acknowledging that there is no silver bullet or perfect solution, what can we do to change the course of events?

Give a one-sentence goal of what you think the problem to be solved is and I'll give it a shot.

I expect we will continue to have a non-meeting of the minds because the events you want to change cannot be changed in a way that is satisfactory to you.

My best recommendation remains that individuals who have a graduate education continue to seek jobs outside academia that are intellectually satisfying enough and pay enough to support a good enough life.

Polly, I understand you.

I think you are unable to understand me, however, and I grow weary (as are most of the posters here tired of us debating).  I think that I've given you my ideal (acknowledging that it is a quixotic ideal) but believe that a great deal of good can be done by aiming for unlikely results.  I don't know why someone with your massive intellect doesn't seem to grasp my very simple hope. 

But fine, you asked so I will give it a shot in a single sentence: I would like to see a steady and concerted progress over a number of years toward condensing PT academic jobs into FT jobs---thus reducing the total number of people employed in academia but giving them careers and restoring stability and quality to higher ed---by activating the populace's willingness to spend a fraction of America's vast wealth to restore North American higher ed alongside many other worthy projects.  Yes, I understand the dynamics of birth rates and COVID, but the world will continue and time will change a great many things. 

I suspect you have a Manichean mindset and so you imagine what I would find "satisfactory" based on a dire, frankly simplistic conception----so please, my friend, don't assume you know what I find "satisfactory."  What I see as "satisfactory" is approximately the same thing a driver sees while trying to swerve to avoid a tanker-truck jack-knifing at 70 mph in front of him on the freeway.  In other words, I see disaster in the road ahead and I would like to see us swerve to avoid it.  Outside of the Fora I am actually trying to do my own small part, and I wish that others would too----and doubtlessly many others are.

You really don't have to give it a shot, but please continue to post catalogs of articles as they are very useful.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 27, 2020, 07:37:50 PM
And just as an addendum to the above, Polly, I've been watching a NOVA documentary on Black Holes.

Fascinating. Mind boggling really.

The discussion eventually swung around to the LIGO Hanford Observatory and the hundreds of millions of dollars it took just to discover a gravity wave caused by two black holes colliding over a billion years ago.  Somehow this proves the existence of black holes.  The money issue was a big concern.

We will never make a great deal of money from a black hole, nor is there an army of young people who will launch careers as black hole technicians or black hole investment bankers.  We lost a lot of money to detect a gravity wave that lasted less than a second.  I guess they have detected a few more ancient gravity waves, and some scientists won Nobel Prizes.

But it sure is a hard sell if you want to talk about ROI.

This is part of the overall point I wish to make.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 28, 2020, 01:09:29 PM
One of the specific ideas from Polly's excellent list posted on this same thread on page 7, March 25th.

The first resource is Strength in numbers Strategies for collaborating in a new era for higher education (https://cdn.ey.com/parthenon/pdf/perspectives/P-EY_Strength-in-Numbers-Collaboration-Strategies_Paper_Final_082016.pdf)

The authors suggest collaboration between colleges.  That's the purpose of the publication.

Quote
Institutions will take one of two pathways depending on their situation: they are either pursuing collaboration out of survival or taking advantage of an opportunity.

Collaborations are no longer limited to colleges in close proximity. Advances in technology can now link together institutions that are separated by hundreds or thousands of miles. In Pennsylvania, 10 liberal arts colleges, including Haverford, Gettysburg, Franklin & Marshall, and Swarthmore, have moved a step beyond the normal course sharing that has usually marked collaborative agreements and are partnering on faculty development, study abroad, and compliance and risk management.

Of course, neighboring colleges have long teamed up on nonacademic operations, sharing police forces or purchasing offices. We have athletic conferences, but there has been little cooperation, if any, on the academic side when it comes to degree programs or entire departments, like Keck.

Some gloom and doom for sure, but also sharing ideas of a way forward.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on March 28, 2020, 03:59:19 PM
I enjoy the efforts of Wahoo AND Polly, and I often suspect Polly and I have worked together at one or another location, or at least are familiar with some of the same places and problems.

I have a former colleague who interviewed at MacMurray less than a year ago, and who detected no major problems. She fortunately had other options ...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 29, 2020, 04:24:59 PM
From Polly's March 25th list:

Unprepared Trustees: A Critical Problem in Higher Education (https://academeblog.org/2019/02/22/unprepared-trustees-problem-higher-education/)

Quote
Michigan State, Penn State, the University of Maryland, and Virginia, among others, offer disastrous examples of boards behaving badly and offering inadequate oversight. This is especially the case when the board's leadership focuses on preserving and enhancing the institutional brand, ranking, or athletic prowess, instead of fostering academic excellence and student success.

It is apparently only now occurring to people that having trustees who know nothing about academia might not be such a good idea.

So, specific fix: recalibrate our trustees with academics.  There are lots of specifics to be considered, obviously, but this seems like a very good place to start.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 29, 2020, 04:49:17 PM
Also from Polly's list:

The Higher Education Apocalypse (https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2019-03-22/college-closings-signal-start-of-a-crisis-in-higher-education)

Quote
On a Friday afternoon in April, the 119-year-old Mount Ida College in Newton abruptly announced it was broke and planned to shutter its doors after commencement the following month, leaving nearly a thousand students scrambling to figure out their future.

The sudden closure, which until then had been a storyline associated mainly with corrupt for-profit schools, sent a jolt through the state and put school administrators across the country on high alert that declining profits and diminishing enrollment were reaching a stage of crisis.

"The culminating moment was the abrupt closure of Mount Ida, the way it transpired and the real outrage that came not only from the college community but also from parents and Massachusetts in general," Santiago says.

Within months, Massachusetts officials went from monitoring the effect of market forces on their higher education industry to actively playing a role in mitigating future risks.

In response, Santiago and state lawmakers convened a working group that quickly prepared a report detailing the emergency and outlining eight specific recommendations to ensure that the state – along with students and the campus community, more importantly – isn't caught off guard again.

I'll say it again: the public DOES actually care.  Capitalize on that.  And yes, as the article points out "Massachusetts's economy is intrinsically linked to the success of its institutions of higher education, perhaps more than any other in the country;" nevertheless they can still be used as a model.  Everyplace there is a college there is a micro-economy created by the institution.  And not just the ginormus land-grant institutions; a lot of these small towns would be wastelands without their super-dinkies and satellite campuses and CCs. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on March 29, 2020, 05:04:55 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 29, 2020, 04:24:59 PM
From Polly's March 25th list:

Unprepared Trustees: A Critical Problem in Higher Education (https://academeblog.org/2019/02/22/unprepared-trustees-problem-higher-education/)

Quote
Michigan State, Penn State, the University of Maryland, and Virginia, among others, offer disastrous examples of boards behaving badly and offering inadequate oversight. This is especially the case when the board's leadership focuses on preserving and enhancing the institutional brand, ranking, or athletic prowess, instead of fostering academic excellence and student success.

It is apparently only now occurring to people that having trustees who know nothing about academia might not be such a good idea.

So, specific fix: recalibrate our trustees with academics.  There are lots of specifics to be considered, obviously, but this seems like a very good place to start.

Agreed. And...

Not quite the same thing, or in the same context, but a similar problem hit churches in the 1980s-2010s, I'd say.

A whole lot of work on developing business models for churches had begun in the 1950s (I have some of the books) and by the 1980s, enough other work on business structures, markets, styles and analysis had bred people who thought they understood how to "run stuff," and wanted second careers, and decided their local churches could benefit from their expertise and know-how.

Several places ended up with senior ministers, rectors, or pastors who'd been businesspeople first, and thought they'd run their church like they'd run their businesses.

Awful stuff happened (for one thing, the personality that makes for a good business leader doesn't quite map into the needs of a bereaved member for pastoral care at 3 AM, or the patience and understanding that an ADHD child requires when running up and down the aisles during your oh-so-carefully-researched sermon...) and, I think, more recently, this tendency has been addressed--either by seminaries that screen more carefully for such issues, or teach about the differences better; or by denominations and confessional groups that have figured out the things they need to ask to avoid installing such individuals in long-term pulpit settings.

The thing that looked like it would be a win-win (most churches being notoriously poor at times) ended up, often, to be a lose-lose (no income because everyone went away mad, and the new clergyperson was dismayed at their perceived failure and inability to get another posting because, if nothing else, church members do talk...).

It might make an interesting study in acculturation, inculturation, etc., but in the meantime the mis-match in institutional needs and directorial preparedness can be lethal.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 29, 2020, 06:29:40 PM
From Polly's final entry:

The other college debt crisis: Schools are going broke (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/03/the-other-college-debt-crisis-schools-are-going-broke.html)

Quote
[Hiram College in Ohio] needed to refinance its long-term debt, and lenders were not looking kindly on the old liberal arts model.

The result was a top-to-bottom makeover of the school's curriculum and its overall approach. Gone were majors seen as stodgy or less aligned with a career path — including religion, art history and music. In their place are programs in sport management, international studies and crime, law and justice. There is a new emphasis on technology, and all students are required to complete an internship, a study-away trip or a research project in order to graduate.

The college has dubbed its approach "the new liberal arts" and trademarked the term.

You anti-lib-arty types should be at least a little happy with this approach.

In other words, I really appreciate that Polly is ringing the bell, but all of these articles ALSO suggest ways forward.  We need to acknowledge the gloom-and-doom and then ALSO pay attention to suggestions for revision.  This is America, after all, and it is folly to assume that we are an inflexible people incapable of solving major cultural problems.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on March 29, 2020, 06:50:11 PM
Do I need a dose of anti-sarcasm powder to read that last line correctly?

;--}

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 29, 2020, 06:56:21 PM
Quote from: mamselle on March 29, 2020, 06:50:11 PM
Do I need a dose of anti-sarcasm powder to read that last line correctly?

;--}

M.

No.  No sarcasm. 

Honestly, I meant that, even if it sounds pretty square.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on March 29, 2020, 07:24:51 PM
OK, because I could see it either way.

I think we may be sclerosing in some ways, and while I've often thought we needed to outgrow some of the less endearing aspects of our cultural adolescence, I did think we might not harden into inflexible polarities as quickly as it sometimes seems we have done.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 29, 2020, 08:49:23 PM
I had never seen "sclerosing" before----is that a verb used outside medicine?  Cool.

I was being quite sincere.  Our higher ed system is on the verge of freefall.  There will have to be immediate reductions made because of birthrate, finances, and COVID, certainly, but birthrates change, times change, the pandemic will be over, and we should not let the legacy of education falter.  People have been taking college for granted for some time now, and certain populations have been radicalized against education even as they send their children off to college. 

I appreciate all the new ideas and restructuring, but these will only go so far----not to mention destroying many of the best aspects of education (v. job training).  I think there is no other way than to make an appeal to the populace.   
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 30, 2020, 08:25:22 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 29, 2020, 08:49:23 PM

I appreciate all the new ideas and restructuring, but these will only go so far----not to mention destroying many of the best aspects of education (v. job training).  I think there is no other way than to make an appeal to the populace.

And there we have the fundamental attitude that derails all of these discussions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 30, 2020, 09:04:12 AM
Quote from: mamselle on March 29, 2020, 05:04:55 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 29, 2020, 04:24:59 PM
From Polly's March 25th list:

Unprepared Trustees: A Critical Problem in Higher Education (https://academeblog.org/2019/02/22/unprepared-trustees-problem-higher-education/)

Quote
Michigan State, Penn State, the University of Maryland, and Virginia, among others, offer disastrous examples of boards behaving badly and offering inadequate oversight. This is especially the case when the board's leadership focuses on preserving and enhancing the institutional brand, ranking, or athletic prowess, instead of fostering academic excellence and student success.

It is apparently only now occurring to people that having trustees who know nothing about academia might not be such a good idea.

So, specific fix: recalibrate our trustees with academics.  There are lots of specifics to be considered, obviously, but this seems like a very good place to start.

Agreed. And...

Not quite the same thing, or in the same context, but a similar problem hit churches in the 1980s-2010s, I'd say.

A whole lot of work on developing business models for churches had begun in the 1950s (I have some of the books) and by the 1980s, enough other work on business structures, markets, styles and analysis had bred people who thought they understood how to "run stuff," and wanted second careers, and decided their local churches could benefit from their expertise and know-how.

Several places ended up with senior ministers, rectors, or pastors who'd been businesspeople first, and thought they'd run their church like they'd run their businesses.

Awful stuff happened (for one thing, the personality that makes for a good business leader doesn't quite map into the needs of a bereaved member for pastoral care at 3 AM, or the patience and understanding that an ADHD child requires when running up and down the aisles during your oh-so-carefully-researched sermon...) and, I think, more recently, this tendency has been addressed--either by seminaries that screen more carefully for such issues, or teach about the differences better; or by denominations and confessional groups that have figured out the things they need to ask to avoid installing such individuals in long-term pulpit settings.

The thing that looked like it would be a win-win (most churches being notoriously poor at times) ended up, often, to be a lose-lose (no income because everyone went away mad, and the new clergyperson was dismayed at their perceived failure and inability to get another posting because, if nothing else, church members do talk...).

It might make an interesting study in acculturation, inculturation, etc., but in the meantime the mis-match in institutional needs and directorial preparedness can be lethal.

M.

I'd never heard of there being a rush of former business types into the clergy (Apart from Sister Philippa in Rumer Godden's In This House of Brede).  I grew up in churches where the pastor (Usually my father) was typically a blue-collar bi-vocational minister who worked at construction or something to support the family.  What they lacked in formal education (Although some, like Dad, had been to seminary) they made up in being very much of the community they ministered to.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on March 30, 2020, 09:28:13 AM
Yes, that's definitely another firm model (that has, in fact, outlasted the one I described over time). Starting with Paul, tentmaking models for ministry have been brought respectable, far-seeing individuals into service. In many ways, that describes my own work--one foot in the EA/sciency world, the other in the liturgical arts.

I also worked on-and-off with a consortium of seminaries for many years, so the concentration of folks like the ones I described might have been more visible during the time in question. The ATS (Asso. of Theological Schools) as led by D. Aylford until his recent retirement, surveyed and published a study on the state of theological education up through the early 2000s, and it's noted there, for one thing.

But the parallel I was seeing was between academic institutions being run by non-academics, and ecclesiastical institutions being run by those who were not originally theologically trained (and sorry to say, put on what training they did get as a thin veneer over their previous professional inclinations...a wineskins problem, maybe.)

Some parallax may have been afforded by the disparate viewpoints (and I can think of at least one excellent example, as an exception, who proves that case) but many dysfunctional results also arose, I thought, among those for whom their preparation was not "bred in the bone," as it were.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 30, 2020, 10:12:19 AM
Trustee boards at the small, private, not-for-profit institutions I've worked at, and that are often the subject of this thread, usually consist of the following, with individuals often in multiple categories:

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 31, 2020, 02:00:18 PM
University of Arkansas at Little Rock is now looking at cutting and eliminating various programs.  Among the proposed cuts, performing arts, any foreign languages besides Spanish, and several engineering programs that haven't been doing too well at UALR.  And the usual reductions to English, History, etc.



https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/mar/31/ualr-looks-at-academic-program-cuts-202-1/

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on March 31, 2020, 06:18:26 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 31, 2020, 02:00:18 PM
University of Arkansas at Little Rock is now looking at cutting and eliminating various programs.  Among the proposed cuts, performing arts, any foreign languages besides Spanish, and several engineering programs that haven't been doing too well at UALR.  And the usual reductions to English, History, etc.



https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/mar/31/ualr-looks-at-academic-program-cuts-202-1/

Some of those majors that are proposed to be cut, require talent, prepared academic backgrounds, tenacity, and hard work from students. That's often why numbers are low in those majors. Sadly that can leave a university with a majority of programs that are fluff, and a student population, the majority of whom have no talent, are unprepared academically, can't stick with anything, and think hard work is reading 20 pages a day. This will lower the overall reputation of the university, and devalue the credential from UALR, continuing the cycle of mediocrity to its inevitable end.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 31, 2020, 06:52:51 PM
Quote from: lightning on March 31, 2020, 06:18:26 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 31, 2020, 02:00:18 PM
University of Arkansas at Little Rock is now looking at cutting and eliminating various programs.  Among the proposed cuts, performing arts, any foreign languages besides Spanish, and several engineering programs that haven't been doing too well at UALR.  And the usual reductions to English, History, etc.



https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/mar/31/ualr-looks-at-academic-program-cuts-202-1/

Some of those majors that are proposed to be cut, require talent, prepared academic backgrounds, tenacity, and hard work from students. That's often why numbers are low in those majors. Sadly that can leave a university with a majority of programs that are fluff, and a student population, the majority of whom have no talent, are unprepared academically, can't stick with anything, and think hard work is reading 20 pages a day. This will lower the overall reputation of the university, and devalue the credential from UALR, continuing the cycle of mediocrity to its inevitable end.

We are letting American higher ed crash.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apostrophe on April 01, 2020, 03:48:09 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 31, 2020, 06:52:51 PM
Quote from: lightning on March 31, 2020, 06:18:26 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 31, 2020, 02:00:18 PM
University of Arkansas at Little Rock is now looking at cutting and eliminating various programs.  Among the proposed cuts, performing arts, any foreign languages besides Spanish, and several engineering programs that haven't been doing too well at UALR.  And the usual reductions to English, History, etc.



https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/mar/31/ualr-looks-at-academic-program-cuts-202-1/

Some of those majors that are proposed to be cut, require talent, prepared academic backgrounds, tenacity, and hard work from students. That's often why numbers are low in those majors. Sadly that can leave a university with a majority of programs that are fluff, and a student population, the majority of whom have no talent, are unprepared academically, can't stick with anything, and think hard work is reading 20 pages a day. This will lower the overall reputation of the university, and devalue the credential from UALR, continuing the cycle of mediocrity to its inevitable end.

We are letting American higher ed crash.

That is a painful lists of cuts and reductions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 01, 2020, 04:29:53 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 31, 2020, 06:52:51 PM
Quote from: lightning on March 31, 2020, 06:18:26 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 31, 2020, 02:00:18 PM
University of Arkansas at Little Rock is now looking at cutting and eliminating various programs.  Among the proposed cuts, performing arts, any foreign languages besides Spanish, and several engineering programs that haven't been doing too well at UALR.  And the usual reductions to English, History, etc.



https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/mar/31/ualr-looks-at-academic-program-cuts-202-1/

Some of those majors that are proposed to be cut, require talent, prepared academic backgrounds, tenacity, and hard work from students. That's often why numbers are low in those majors. Sadly that can leave a university with a majority of programs that are fluff, and a student population, the majority of whom have no talent, are unprepared academically, can't stick with anything, and think hard work is reading 20 pages a day. This will lower the overall reputation of the university, and devalue the credential from UALR, continuing the cycle of mediocrity to its inevitable end.

We are letting American higher ed crash.

By the description of the student body above, maybe that's not such a bad thing.

Like the adjunct situation, where a good remedy would be replacing lots of lousy jobs with fewer reasonable ones, part of the solution for students is to provide a better education for a smaller number who are prepared and dedicated. Institutions that contribute to both the adjunct problem and the student problem described are probably not worthy of a lot of propping up.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 01, 2020, 07:37:32 AM
IHE indicates that even institutions that wouldn't normally make the dire financial straits thread have announced hiring freezes as a way to cope with the current crisis. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/04/01/scores-colleges-announce-faculty-hiring-freezes-response-coronavirus)

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 27, 2020, 06:38:19 PM
But fine, you asked so I will give it a shot in a single sentence: I would like to see a steady and concerted progress over a number of years toward condensing PT academic jobs into FT jobs---thus reducing the total number of people employed in academia but giving them careers and restoring stability and quality to higher ed---by activating the populace's willingness to spend a fraction of America's vast wealth to restore North American higher ed alongside many other worthy projects.
The time to have done that was forty years ago. 

Technically, some places could do some consolidation.  However, trying today is really a non-starter in most cases, even in the places that have adjunct armies so it looks as though consolidation should work.  If someone does the math, then it's less likely the decision will be to find extra money to consolidate, say, 80 part-time positions to 20 full-time positions, and it's much more likely to look at the admissions side to decide that perhaps those general education requirements can be met in other ways.

I haven't written recently in detail about what some changes in student preparedness means for general education demand so I"ll do that here.

NEA published an article a couple years ago titled: Dual Enrollment's Expansion: Cause for Concern (http://www.nea.org/home/71701.htm)  The causes for concern include huge growth in the students finishing college credits in high school for students who haven't already maxed out in high school; indeed, some of the students are struggling with high school classes, but are enrolled in dual credit.  Not listed as  a primary cause for concern is jobs for college professors at institutions that will enroll students who have already completed their general education requirements.

The growth in AP likewise reduces the demand for the bread-and-butter college general education courses (https://www.educationdive.com/news/college-board-ap-participation-and-performance-grow-in-tandem/571796/).

I can't find stats on how many people are taking CLEP to get college credit cheaper than taking the courses, but I can find many recent articles advising people to do so. (https://collegeinfogeek.com/clep/)

Stats on the number of students who start at community college to complete their general education requirements cheaper are easier to find: About half of all people who earned a college degree in recent years started at community colleges (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/03/26/nearly-half-four-year-college-graduates-attended-two-year-college).

One memorable fall term at Super Dinky several years ago, we only needed one ENGL 101 section because the entering class either had credit to skip or placed into developmental English (not taught out of the English department). 

Thus, people who are looking at where faculty are needed and are allocating lines appropriately based on student demand for classes are very unlikely to be looking to expand full-time slots in the general education courses that traditionally have armies of adjuncts.  Instead, the decision makers are likely to be looking to just cut positions as the demand drops for the bread-and-butter, taught-everywhere-including-dual-enrollment-by-HS-teachers-with-graduate-degrees courses.  It's possible that individual departments will cut full-time positions and slightly expand part-time positions to give greater variety of the one-off electives that will fill (like Zombie Apocalypse below).


The idea was floated recently that the small colleges could just add another position or two to grow full-time faculty positions in the heavily adjuncted fields.  I'll use MacMurray as an example of what can happen at a tiny school since they were mentioned recently here and have their course schedule available to the public.


MacMurray College lists no English department; instead, it has a Humanities Programs with the first entry as physics and math, an interesting choice. (https://www.mac.edu/directory?filterTerm=Humanities+Programs)  There are three people listed as composition faculty and one English faculty member.  THere's one philosophy professor and one history professor.  This is not at all uncommon for the tiny SLACs holding on by their finger tips with 20-30 full-time faculty total to serve a few hundred students.  Indeed, I'm surprised that MacMurray has three full-time faculty in composition because that seems large.  The humanities program has one professional fellow lwith no expertise listed.

Going over to the course schedule (https://my.mac.edu/ICS/Portal_Homepage.jnz?portlet=Course_Schedules&screen=Advanced+Course+Search&screenType=next), there are 10 sections of composition listed, including one with a name that comes back to a librarian.  However, there are 31 seats open across the 10 sections of 155 seats.  Some of those sections meet at exactly the same time with neither one full or even really close to full.  One of the sections is capped at 20 possible seats while the others are capped at 15.  It looks a lot like these sections could have been consolidated in some way even to keep the cap at 15 for more feedback possible to each student.  Letting the cap float to 20ish would allow for further consolidation.

There are four English sections listed with only two being taught by the English professor and others by comp folks. One of the comp folks is teaching a section of VCON 302: Value Conflicts: Renaissance-Modern alongside the philosophy professor(2 sections) and the political science professor (2 sections).

Doing the math, 4 full-time faculty members at four sections each is 16 sections.  Using the math above, we have 9+4+1 for 14 sections.  It's entirely reasonable to let the comp director have a course release and perhaps someone else needs one as well for something.  It's unclear how MacMurray would have load for another full-time faculty member in English or composition since it looks a lot like they were scrambling to have something for faculty to teach even with caps of 15 on bread-and-butter sections.

Looking at other parts of general education, it's noticeable that there are only 4 English electives and they are capped at 19/20.

There are only 2 philosophy courses and one is Management and Business Ethics.  Again with caps of 20ish.

There's one political science class (I looked because MacMurray brags in their recent news about a new major: PPE: Philosophy, Political Science, and Economics and philosophy is not obviously carrying that load).

There are two econ courses listed: one with an enrollment of 8 and one with 48 students spread over three sections.

There are 4 history courses, but one is the same course in two sections that has a total enrollment of 22.

Searching on the name of the professional fellow listed in the humanities program, she is listed as teaching two computer courses: presentation software and database applications.

In summary, MacMurray, like most tiny at-one-time-LACs, had already consolidated any armies of adjuncts in the humanities and was still struggling to find enough work for their full-time faculty who lost the majors and are only supporting general education.  These are the institutions that will close in the next year and there's no way they will be hiring enough full-time people now to matter at all to the national adjunct-in-certain-fields job lack.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on April 01, 2020, 07:46:27 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 01, 2020, 04:29:53 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 31, 2020, 06:52:51 PM
Quote from: lightning on March 31, 2020, 06:18:26 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 31, 2020, 02:00:18 PM
University of Arkansas at Little Rock is now looking at cutting and eliminating various programs.  Among the proposed cuts, performing arts, any foreign languages besides Spanish, and several engineering programs that haven't been doing too well at UALR.  And the usual reductions to English, History, etc.



https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/mar/31/ualr-looks-at-academic-program-cuts-202-1/

Some of those majors that are proposed to be cut, require talent, prepared academic backgrounds, tenacity, and hard work from students. That's often why numbers are low in those majors. Sadly that can leave a university with a majority of programs that are fluff, and a student population, the majority of whom have no talent, are unprepared academically, can't stick with anything, and think hard work is reading 20 pages a day. This will lower the overall reputation of the university, and devalue the credential from UALR, continuing the cycle of mediocrity to its inevitable end.

We are letting American higher ed crash.

By the description of the student body above, maybe that's not such a bad thing.

Like the adjunct situation, where a good remedy would be replacing lots of lousy jobs with fewer reasonable ones, part of the solution for students is to provide a better education for a smaller number who are prepared and dedicated. Institutions that contribute to both the adjunct problem and the student problem described are probably not worthy of a lot of propping up.

I think that statement (about UALR students) is excessive. There are some community colleges where that might be a reasonable description, but UALR is pretty standard as non-elite public universities are concerned. They have a small number of elite students, a ton of good students, and a few really bad students that will attend for a semester or a year. It's definitely not a majority of students, and very few of those are going to make it to the third year.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 01, 2020, 07:56:06 AM
Perhaps more people need to know that approximately 40% of everyone who starts college drops out before earning a degree. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/09/10/a-dereliction-duty-college-dropout-scandal-how-fix-it/)

The figures are higher for those who need college the most with only 16% of students from low income families completing a college degree. (https://www.voanews.com/student-union/low-income-students-see-low-graduation-rates)

Someone on a thread months ago asked whether college graduates who come from low SES families really do worse with a degree in a liberal arts field.   I still can't answer that question because so few low SES students get college degrees at all, let alone in the liberal arts from an institution that represents a typical, not elite, education.  The folks who get a liberal arts degree from an elite institution and who end up with the social capital as well as the education do fine, as long as they are willing to go where the jobs are.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 01, 2020, 08:45:41 AM
I think we do know about college drop-out rates.  That subject has frequented this forum. We've talked about the deceptive numbers (as does this interview, noting that CC drop-out rates pull the numbers down) and offers nothing substantially new.

For instance, when pressed for an example of how to change the drop-out rate, the interviewee offers this nugget:

Quote
Western Michigan University decided to change the equation of failure, and it is succeeding. WMU gives these students ["foster kids"] a free financial ride. At least as important is how the university intentionally builds a community, beginning the summer before college. They live on campus during the time they're enrolled at WMU. Crucially, they have a "coach" who takes on the roles of academic adviser, social worker, mentor and parent.

Great.  Marvelous.  That is wonderful.

Aren't we complaining a lot about the cost of higher ed?  You want to reduce costs?  Is it a big surprise that if you give a student a free-ride and a coach hu is going to do a lot better than hu would otherwise? 

The result:

Quote
This support pays off: 44 percent of the foster-care youth graduate, and while that's below the 54 percent overall graduation rate at WMU, it's a whole lot better than 10 percent! [which is the rate which "foster kids" generally graduate]

So even with a free-ride and a life-coach we're still at 40 percent.  Maybe this is just the percentage of people who will stick it out and graduate college.

And is it really a big surprise that with a lot of expensive support students do better?

All of us could teach the heck-fire out of our students AND boost the overall graduation rate AND get quantifiable results AND support those most in need if we had full-rides and time enough to teach and coach----BUT we will need to pay for it.

The whole have your cake thing.

I understand that a lot of people appreciate Polly's posts, but talking with her is a bit like a family argument at Thanksgiving: I know what she's said in the past and I know the stuff she is looking for.  Right now it is in vogue to be outraged at higher ed.  Polly, you have fallen into the pit. 


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 01, 2020, 09:32:25 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 01, 2020, 08:45:41 AM


Quote
This support pays off: 44 percent of the foster-care youth graduate, and while that's below the 54 percent overall graduation rate at WMU, it's a whole lot better than 10 percent! [which is the rate which "foster kids" generally graduate]

So even with a free-ride and a life-coach we're still at 40 percent.  Maybe this is just the percentage of people who will stick it out and graduate college.

And is it really a big surprise that with a lot of expensive support students do better?

All of us could teach the heck-fire out of our students AND boost the overall graduation rate AND get quantifiable results AND support those most in need if we had full-rides and time enough to teach and coach----BUT we will need to pay for it.

But a lot of money could be saved if we could reliably predict even half of the people who aren't likely to complete, and funnel them into more productive life choices. (In fact, those people are going to suck up support resources that would be better targetted to the ones who are likely to complete.)

More money for certain things is going to be worth it. However, that doesn't negate the reality that there may be other areas where the solution is wiser decision-making; not more money.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 01, 2020, 10:26:42 AM
You're suggesting we "funnel [people] into more productive life choices"?

Marshy, you ever consider moving to North Korea?  You'd do well there.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 01, 2020, 10:45:59 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 01, 2020, 07:37:32 AM

MacMurray College lists no English department; instead, it has a Humanities Programs with the first entry as physics and math, an interesting choice. (https://www.mac.edu/directory?filterTerm=Humanities+Programs)  There are three people listed as composition faculty and one English faculty member.  THere's one philosophy professor and one history professor.  This is not at all uncommon for the tiny SLACs holding on by their finger tips with 20-30 full-time faculty total to serve a few hundred students.  Indeed, I'm surprised that MacMurray has three full-time faculty in composition because that seems large.  The humanities program has one professional fellow lwith no expertise listed.

Going over to the course schedule (https://my.mac.edu/ICS/Portal_Homepage.jnz?portlet=Course_Schedules&screen=Advanced+Course+Search&screenType=next), there are 10 sections of composition listed, including one with a name that comes back to a librarian.  However, there are 31 seats open across the 10 sections of 155 seats.  Some of those sections meet at exactly the same time with neither one full or even really close to full.  One of the sections is capped at 20 possible seats while the others are capped at 15.  It looks a lot like these sections could have been consolidated in some way even to keep the cap at 15 for more feedback possible to each student.  Letting the cap float to 20ish would allow for further consolidation.

There are four English sections listed with only two being taught by the English professor and others by comp folks. One of the comp folks is teaching a section of VCON 302: Value Conflicts: Renaissance-Modern alongside the philosophy professor(2 sections) and the political science professor (2 sections).

Doing the math, 4 full-time faculty members at four sections each is 16 sections.  Using the math above, we have 9+4+1 for 14 sections.  It's entirely reasonable to let the comp director have a course release and perhaps someone else needs one as well for something.  It's unclear how MacMurray would have load for another full-time faculty member in English or composition since it looks a lot like they were scrambling to have something for faculty to teach even with caps of 15 on bread-and-butter sections.

Looking at other parts of general education, it's noticeable that there are only 4 English electives and they are capped at 19/20.

There are only 2 philosophy courses and one is Management and Business Ethics.  Again with caps of 20ish.

There's one political science class (I looked because MacMurray brags in their recent news about a new major: PPE: Philosophy, Political Science, and Economics and philosophy is not obviously carrying that load).

There are two econ courses listed: one with an enrollment of 8 and one with 48 students spread over three sections.

There are 4 history courses, but one is the same course in two sections that has a total enrollment of 22.

Searching on the name of the professional fellow listed in the humanities program, she is listed as teaching two computer courses: presentation software and database applications.

In summary, MacMurray, like most tiny at-one-time-LACs, had already consolidated any armies of adjuncts in the humanities and was still struggling to find enough work for their full-time faculty who lost the majors and are only supporting general education.  These are the institutions that will close in the next year and there's no way they will be hiring enough full-time people now to matter at all to the national adjunct-in-certain-fields job lack.

My goodness, what a threadbare liberal arts program!  It sounds like their status as a liberal arts college finished bleeding away years ago.  With overall traditional-age student populations declining, and better-resourced schools still available in the region, it really would be awfully difficult to justify bailing a school like this out.  And sadly, like it or not, there seem to be a lot of them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 01, 2020, 10:48:47 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 01, 2020, 07:46:27 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 01, 2020, 04:29:53 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 31, 2020, 06:52:51 PM
Quote from: lightning on March 31, 2020, 06:18:26 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 31, 2020, 02:00:18 PM
University of Arkansas at Little Rock is now looking at cutting and eliminating various programs.  Among the proposed cuts, performing arts, any foreign languages besides Spanish, and several engineering programs that haven't been doing too well at UALR.  And the usual reductions to English, History, etc.



https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/mar/31/ualr-looks-at-academic-program-cuts-202-1/

Some of those majors that are proposed to be cut, require talent, prepared academic backgrounds, tenacity, and hard work from students. That's often why numbers are low in those majors. Sadly that can leave a university with a majority of programs that are fluff, and a student population, the majority of whom have no talent, are unprepared academically, can't stick with anything, and think hard work is reading 20 pages a day. This will lower the overall reputation of the university, and devalue the credential from UALR, continuing the cycle of mediocrity to its inevitable end.

We are letting American higher ed crash.

By the description of the student body above, maybe that's not such a bad thing.

Like the adjunct situation, where a good remedy would be replacing lots of lousy jobs with fewer reasonable ones, part of the solution for students is to provide a better education for a smaller number who are prepared and dedicated. Institutions that contribute to both the adjunct problem and the student problem described are probably not worthy of a lot of propping up.

I think that statement (about UALR students) is excessive. There are some community colleges where that might be a reasonable description, but UALR is pretty standard as non-elite public universities are concerned. They have a small number of elite students, a ton of good students, and a few really bad students that will attend for a semester or a year. It's definitely not a majority of students, and very few of those are going to make it to the third year.

It's classed as an R2 university, although there are concerns that with cuts like this it might lose that status.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 01, 2020, 10:55:20 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 01, 2020, 07:37:32 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 27, 2020, 06:38:19 PM
But fine, you asked so I will give it a shot in a single sentence: I would like to see a steady and concerted progress over a number of years toward condensing PT academic jobs into FT jobs---thus reducing the total number of people employed in academia but giving them careers and restoring stability and quality to higher ed---by activating the populace's willingness to spend a fraction of America's vast wealth to restore North American higher ed alongside many other worthy projects.
The time to have done that was forty years ago. 

Agreed.  We've talked about that before.

Which just makes our jobs harder now as we try to save higher ed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 01, 2020, 11:57:07 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 01, 2020, 10:26:42 AM
You're suggesting we "funnel [people] into more productive life choices"?

Marshy, you ever consider moving to North Korea?  You'd do well there.

Unless I've missed the change, high schools used to have "guidance offices" to help students decide on what to do after graduation. Telling virtually everyone "Go to university!!!" is not particularly helpful. (And if the advice for everyone is the same, the office is a waste of resources.) Directing people to progams, (academic or vocational), based on their abilities and interests, is helpful. Others who have no idea might be better advised to look for emplyment to work for a year or two to give time to consider so they'll make money rather than spend it studying things for no apparent reason because it's "the thing to do".
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 01, 2020, 03:05:36 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 01, 2020, 07:37:32 AM
In summary, MacMurray, like most tiny at-one-time-LACs, had already consolidated any armies of adjuncts in the humanities and was still struggling to find enough work for their full-time faculty who lost the majors and are only supporting general education.  These are the institutions that will close in the next year and there's no way they will be hiring enough full-time people now to matter at all to the national adjunct-in-certain-fields job lack.

This is your worst example of cherry-picking yet, Polly, and not representative of anything but MacMurry. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 01, 2020, 04:04:02 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 01, 2020, 03:05:36 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 01, 2020, 07:37:32 AM
In summary, MacMurray, like most tiny at-one-time-LACs, had already consolidated any armies of adjuncts in the humanities and was still struggling to find enough work for their full-time faculty who lost the majors and are only supporting general education.  These are the institutions that will close in the next year and there's no way they will be hiring enough full-time people now to matter at all to the national adjunct-in-certain-fields job lack.

This is your worst example of cherry-picking yet, Polly, and not representative of anything but MacMurry.

This is exactly what my employer will be doing soon -- and something that should have been done a decade ago. My employer's undergraduate FTE is more than four times larger than MacMurray's was and the proportion of course sections taught by adjuncts to those taught by full-time faculty is below the average for institutions in our category.

What's the undergraduate FTE where you work? The ratio of adjuncts to full-time faculty in terms of classes taught per semester? The percentage of net revenue from tuition? Average number of students per course section? You frequently complain about cherry picking but don't offer any counterexamples. Are you at all familiar with operational expenses at your employer?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 01, 2020, 06:46:40 PM
Yes.  It's all on the web. The reports use jargon that is confusing but I can post what the fiscal year 2019 numbers say if you like.

More germane, we have 41 percent FT teachers /59 percent PT teachers.  Our undergrad lectures generally range between 25 to 40 students, depending on the course, obviously---I don't know the ratio of credit hours per, but those numbers are fairly indicative I think.

And I have mostly kept my comments to the English discipline, which is what I know and which Polly specifically mentioned in regards to MacMurry and which sounds like none of the places I've worked or studied at.

Are you going to join Marshwiggle in simply denying numbers that are generally acknowledged?

Did you just have a temper tantrum?   

Ironically, if any of the several struggling SLACs in our area tank it will be much better for us since we, and they, almost exclusively recruit from the region.  But what a shame for higher ed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 01, 2020, 07:10:08 PM
People who have never really looked at the tiny colleges of under 1000 students are often stunned at the realities of having 30ish full-time faculty total and under 20 major programs after cutting all the liberal arts majors.

When it closed, Southern Vermont College looked similar to MacMurray, as did others when I looked and was trying to keep Super Dinky afloat.

I recommend people use https://www.collegefactual.com/ to really look at these tiny colleges in terms of overall faculty numbers and how many part-time faculty are being used.  It's not just scaling down a department with 25 full-time faculty and 80 adjuncts.

Go look at colleges mentioned on this thread as having tiny enrollments.  Take a tour through some of the colleges trying to pick up students from MacMurray and place your guesses on how long those places will remain open.


Ask yourself how many students will pick places that brag about having 25-40 student groups and small class sizes of under 20 when those won't be face-to-face classes.

Ask yourself how big a selection of electives are offered with only 2-5 faculty members in a department and how appealing that is to students who want a true liberal arts education.

I pick concrete examples in an effort to give additional perspective to those who may have an intellectual idea but don't really deep-in-their-guts know the stark realities of the breadth of US higher ed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 01, 2020, 07:25:41 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 01, 2020, 06:46:40 PM

More germane, we have 41 percent FT teachers /59 percent PT teachers. 
How many courses are taught by each FT, and how many are taught by each PT?


Quote

Are you going to join Marshwiggle in simply denying numbers that are generally acknowledged?


What generally acknowledged numbers have I denied?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on April 01, 2020, 07:37:50 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 01, 2020, 07:10:08 PM
People who have never really looked at the tiny colleges of under 1000 students are often stunned at the realities of having 30ish full-time faculty total and under 20 major programs after cutting all the liberal arts majors.

When it closed, Southern Vermont College looked similar to MacMurray, as did others when I looked and was trying to keep Super Dinky afloat.

I recommend people use https://www.collegefactual.com/ to really look at these tiny colleges in terms of overall faculty numbers and how many part-time faculty are being used.  It's not just scaling down a department with 25 full-time faculty and 80 adjuncts.

Go look at colleges mentioned on this thread as having tiny enrollments.  Take a tour through some of the colleges trying to pick up students from MacMurray and place your guesses on how long those places will remain open.


Ask yourself how many students will pick places that brag about having 25-40 student groups and small class sizes of under 20 when those won't be face-to-face classes.

Ask yourself how big a selection of electives are offered with only 2-5 faculty members in a department and how appealing that is to students who want a true liberal arts education.

I pick concrete examples in an effort to give additional perspective to those who may have an intellectual idea but don't really deep-in-their-guts know the stark realities of the breadth of US higher ed.

As an enthusiast for SLAC's I have followed the thread fairly closely. The examples of failing schools are depressing, but somehow comprehensible: There is a concept called "minimum efficient scale", an answer to the question of how many customers must a college have to be financially self-supporting. I do not know the precisely right answer, of course, but the Wikipedia entry for SLAC's  claims that private SLAC's typically have under 2700 students. This seems an amazingly small number to me, way too few students to cover all costs. Public SLAC's are said to be typically under 5000. This seems a more reasonable size to me, though I know not if it's big enough.

Point is that SLACs dying is systematic, and not just a collection of examples. A cure would lie in raising number of students [mergers and acquisitions, but when does it stop being a SLAC?] and wondering about and trying to control costs. I think more SLAC's will inevitably go down the tubes.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 01, 2020, 07:41:28 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 01, 2020, 07:25:41 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 01, 2020, 06:46:40 PM

More germane, we have 41 percent FT teachers /59 percent PT teachers. 
How many courses are taught by each FT, and how many are taught by each PT?


Quote

Are you going to join Marshwiggle in simply denying numbers that are generally acknowledged?


What generally acknowledged numbers have I denied?

Marshy are you honestly asking these questions?  Sometimes you ask the same basic question over and over again, and sometimes you ask questions so inane I can't tell if you are serious or not.

We are a school of 15K students, so a question like "How many courses are taught by each FT, and how many are taught by each PT?" is incredibly...clueless.  We have over 400 FT and over 560 PT faculty----a full load for faculty is 4/4 (unless faculty get a part-time research leave or course release for service work) and 5/5 for lecturers; the adjuncts have a ceiling of 3 courses per semester, and some will teach 1 per and some will teach 2 per and some will only teach in the fall and some will teach 1 in the fall and 2 in the spring etc.  Only the institutional researcher knows those answers and only after researching them.  I've posted about the numbers in my own department many times.  So you've asked a typically clueless complex question in an attempt at a "gotcha." 

Back to the ignore feature with you, my brother.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 01, 2020, 07:57:13 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 01, 2020, 07:41:28 PM


Marshy are you honestly asking these questions?  Sometimes you ask the same basic question over and over again, and sometimes you ask questions so inane I can't tell if you are serious or not.

I honestly don't understand the intensity of snark in your responses.

Quote
We are a school of 15K students, so a question like "How many courses are taught by each FT, and how many are taught by each PT?" is incredibly...clueless.  We have over 400 FT and over 560 PT faculty----a full load for faculty is 4/4 (unless faculty get a part-time research leave or course release for service work) and 5/5 for lecturers; the adjuncts have a ceiling of 3 courses per semester, and some will teach 1 per and some will teach 2 per and some will only teach in the fall and some will teach 1 in the fall and 2 in the spring etc.

So in the most extreme case, if ALL PT people were teachinh 3 each term, that would be 3/4 of a full time load, so that would mean 420 FT "equivalent" positions. In other words, At least 50% of your courses are tuaght by FT faculty. Since most PT people probably teach fewer courses than that, the proiportion of courses taught by FT is likely much higher than that.


Quote
Only the institutional researcher knows those answers and only after researching them.  I've posted about the numbers in my own department many times.  So you've asked a typically clueless complex question in an attempt at a "gotcha." 


In many of the discussions about adjuncts, the ratio of adjuncts to full time instructors is often pointed out. But the more meaningful number is probably the proportion of courses taught by full time faculty since that is the relevant quantity in the student experience.
In other words, if 75% of a student's courses were taught by FT faculty, then all of the things about research, investment in the institution, etc. apply to most of their experience. The fact that they may have had a similar number of part time instructors who but only taught one course each is not such a big deal because they make up a minority of the student's courses.

Was that a "gotcha"?

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 01, 2020, 09:14:06 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 01, 2020, 07:57:13 PM
Was that a "gotcha"?

No, that's a "Duh."

The trouble with the adjunct army is that the number of adjuncts in any given department varies a great deal.  Our Sociology, Anthropology, and Gerontology Department, for instance, has 7 professors and I believe 2 adjuncts, and that covers the teaching schedule for those three subject areas.  Math and Stats, a "service" department that teaches for a lot of different colleges, have 18 profs and 4 lecturers.  English has 15 profs and 60 adjuncts who at some point teach virtually every student in the school.  Nursing, a big major, is all over the place, but that's cool because you want practitioners as well as professors there (Polly's favorite type of department).  Business hires a couple of lawyers every year to teach some classes.  So there are a lot of nurses, a few sociology majors, and everyone takes comp----what is the overall percentage of students taught by adjuncts?  You'd need a research project to figure that out.

Do you get my drift?  You want to get hard numbers not just at a tiny failing school at MacMurry? Great.  I have suggested that we need a study to do just that. Your ballpark upstairs is essentially meaningless, and even if 75 percent are taught by FT faculty, that still leaves a quarter of a student's experience taught by disposable faculty.  Not to mention that these ratios can vary broadly by school and region.

The intense snark is because you repeatedly bull your way into conversations and it would seem that you have almost no comprehension about the subject at hand.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 02, 2020, 03:12:48 AM
Anyone teaching in a full-time, tenure-track position at a university with 15K students is not going to be familiar with the cost problems that exist at a tuition-dependent institution of fewer than 2K students, unless they've previously worked in a senior administrative or staff position at such an institution.

Update on SFAI and MacMurray: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/04/02/two-small-colleges-winding-down-operations-coronavirus-impact-looms-over-higher-ed (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/04/02/two-small-colleges-winding-down-operations-coronavirus-impact-looms-over-higher-ed).

Here we've already begun issuing refunds on spring semester room/board. Revenue from summer campus events has gone to zero. We are probably looking at salary cuts for the next fiscal year.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apostrophe on April 02, 2020, 03:44:15 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 01, 2020, 10:48:47 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 01, 2020, 07:46:27 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 01, 2020, 04:29:53 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 31, 2020, 06:52:51 PM
Quote from: lightning on March 31, 2020, 06:18:26 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 31, 2020, 02:00:18 PM
University of Arkansas at Little Rock is now looking at cutting and eliminating various programs.  Among the proposed cuts, performing arts, any foreign languages besides Spanish, and several engineering programs that haven't been doing too well at UALR.  And the usual reductions to English, History, etc.



https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/mar/31/ualr-looks-at-academic-program-cuts-202-1/

Some of those majors that are proposed to be cut, require talent, prepared academic backgrounds, tenacity, and hard work from students. That's often why numbers are low in those majors. Sadly that can leave a university with a majority of programs that are fluff, and a student population, the majority of whom have no talent, are unprepared academically, can't stick with anything, and think hard work is reading 20 pages a day. This will lower the overall reputation of the university, and devalue the credential from UALR, continuing the cycle of mediocrity to its inevitable end.

We are letting American higher ed crash.

By the description of the student body above, maybe that's not such a bad thing.

Like the adjunct situation, where a good remedy would be replacing lots of lousy jobs with fewer reasonable ones, part of the solution for students is to provide a better education for a smaller number who are prepared and dedicated. Institutions that contribute to both the adjunct problem and the student problem described are probably not worthy of a lot of propping up.

I think that statement (about UALR students) is excessive. There are some community colleges where that might be a reasonable description, but UALR is pretty standard as non-elite public universities are concerned. They have a small number of elite students, a ton of good students, and a few really bad students that will attend for a semester or a year. It's definitely not a majority of students, and very few of those are going to make it to the third year.

It's classed as an R2 university, although there are concerns that with cuts like this it might lose that status.

And it's the flagship university of the state, right?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pgher on April 02, 2020, 04:58:00 AM
Quote from: apostrophe on April 02, 2020, 03:44:15 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 01, 2020, 10:48:47 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 01, 2020, 07:46:27 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 01, 2020, 04:29:53 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 31, 2020, 06:52:51 PM
Quote from: lightning on March 31, 2020, 06:18:26 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 31, 2020, 02:00:18 PM
University of Arkansas at Little Rock is now looking at cutting and eliminating various programs.  Among the proposed cuts, performing arts, any foreign languages besides Spanish, and several engineering programs that haven't been doing too well at UALR.  And the usual reductions to English, History, etc.



https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/mar/31/ualr-looks-at-academic-program-cuts-202-1/

Some of those majors that are proposed to be cut, require talent, prepared academic backgrounds, tenacity, and hard work from students. That's often why numbers are low in those majors. Sadly that can leave a university with a majority of programs that are fluff, and a student population, the majority of whom have no talent, are unprepared academically, can't stick with anything, and think hard work is reading 20 pages a day. This will lower the overall reputation of the university, and devalue the credential from UALR, continuing the cycle of mediocrity to its inevitable end.

We are letting American higher ed crash.

By the description of the student body above, maybe that's not such a bad thing.

Like the adjunct situation, where a good remedy would be replacing lots of lousy jobs with fewer reasonable ones, part of the solution for students is to provide a better education for a smaller number who are prepared and dedicated. Institutions that contribute to both the adjunct problem and the student problem described are probably not worthy of a lot of propping up.

I think that statement (about UALR students) is excessive. There are some community colleges where that might be a reasonable description, but UALR is pretty standard as non-elite public universities are concerned. They have a small number of elite students, a ton of good students, and a few really bad students that will attend for a semester or a year. It's definitely not a majority of students, and very few of those are going to make it to the third year.

It's classed as an R2 university, although there are concerns that with cuts like this it might lose that status.

And it's the flagship university of the state, right?

No. The flagship is in Fayetteville.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 02, 2020, 05:39:34 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 01, 2020, 09:14:06 PM

The trouble with the adjunct army is that the number of adjuncts in any given department varies a great deal.  Our Sociology, Anthropology, and Gerontology Department, for instance, has 7 professors and I believe 2 adjuncts, and that covers the teaching schedule for those three subject areas.  Math and Stats, a "service" department that teaches for a lot of different colleges, have 18 profs and 4 lecturers.  English has 15 profs and 60 adjuncts who at some point teach virtually every student in the school.  Nursing, a big major, is all over the place, but that's cool because you want practitioners as well as professors there (Polly's favorite type of department).  Business hires a couple of lawyers every year to teach some classes. 


That's pretty consistent with the surveys that have been linked to on here in the past. English has by far the biggest percentage of adjuncts. This seems to be, as suggested above, due to English courses required by virtually every student. This may actually be part of the problem: Who would want to teach 4 or 5 classes every term, if all of them were sections of the same course?

So one way to vastly reduce the reliance on adjuncts would be to remove the "box-checking" English requirements (which lots of other English speaking countries don't have and seem to do fine without.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 02, 2020, 06:57:15 AM
IHE is covering calls to ignore financial responsibility for now with reasons why that's a bad idea (https://insidehighered.com/news/2020/04/02/college-groups-push-suspension-financial-responsibility-scores-feds-release-distance)

The nursing major is a reason why students pick a college.  No one picks a college for the couple required-for-general-education courses in any department.  Having crummy general education is less a problem for an institution if the majors are good and match up with what students want when they're choosing colleges.

The question for years was why students would pick the very limited offerings at a tiny school when the regional comprehensive was cheaper with better selection of majors, electives, and activities.

Social media when a tiny college closes tends to point out understandable reasons:

* a very popular major that has limited seats nationally.  For example, MacMurray had a nursing program and those students are panicky about finding another seat anywhere.

* social reasons like DIII athletics where even first-year students may get to play varsity.

* vague ideas about how college is always expensive and major doesn't matter so a college within an easy commute with small, personal classes taught by full-time faculty is fine.

* most students go to college within 50 miles of home and people whose entire town is only a couple thousand people feel much more comfortable on a campus of under 1000 people total.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 02, 2020, 08:00:00 AM
Quote from: pgher on April 02, 2020, 04:58:00 AM
Quote from: apostrophe on April 02, 2020, 03:44:15 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 01, 2020, 10:48:47 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 01, 2020, 07:46:27 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 01, 2020, 04:29:53 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 31, 2020, 06:52:51 PM
Quote from: lightning on March 31, 2020, 06:18:26 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 31, 2020, 02:00:18 PM
University of Arkansas at Little Rock is now looking at cutting and eliminating various programs.  Among the proposed cuts, performing arts, any foreign languages besides Spanish, and several engineering programs that haven't been doing too well at UALR.  And the usual reductions to English, History, etc.



https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/mar/31/ualr-looks-at-academic-program-cuts-202-1/

Some of those majors that are proposed to be cut, require talent, prepared academic backgrounds, tenacity, and hard work from students. That's often why numbers are low in those majors. Sadly that can leave a university with a majority of programs that are fluff, and a student population, the majority of whom have no talent, are unprepared academically, can't stick with anything, and think hard work is reading 20 pages a day. This will lower the overall reputation of the university, and devalue the credential from UALR, continuing the cycle of mediocrity to its inevitable end.

We are letting American higher ed crash.

By the description of the student body above, maybe that's not such a bad thing.

Like the adjunct situation, where a good remedy would be replacing lots of lousy jobs with fewer reasonable ones, part of the solution for students is to provide a better education for a smaller number who are prepared and dedicated. Institutions that contribute to both the adjunct problem and the student problem described are probably not worthy of a lot of propping up.

I think that statement (about UALR students) is excessive. There are some community colleges where that might be a reasonable description, but UALR is pretty standard as non-elite public universities are concerned. They have a small number of elite students, a ton of good students, and a few really bad students that will attend for a semester or a year. It's definitely not a majority of students, and very few of those are going to make it to the third year.

It's classed as an R2 university, although there are concerns that with cuts like this it might lose that status.

And it's the flagship university of the state, right?

No. The flagship is in Fayetteville.

Yes, Fayetteville is the flagship school.  UALR has always been considered a strong #2 school in the Arkansas public higher education world.  But Arkansas, like most states, has seen a decline in the number of high school graduates.  This has hit some schools harder than others.  UALR, for whatever reason, has been particularly hard hit.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 02, 2020, 08:20:05 AM
Quote from: dismalist on April 01, 2020, 07:37:50 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 01, 2020, 07:10:08 PM
People who have never really looked at the tiny colleges of under 1000 students are often stunned at the realities of having 30ish full-time faculty total and under 20 major programs after cutting all the liberal arts majors.

When it closed, Southern Vermont College looked similar to MacMurray, as did others when I looked and was trying to keep Super Dinky afloat.

I recommend people use https://www.collegefactual.com/ to really look at these tiny colleges in terms of overall faculty numbers and how many part-time faculty are being used.  It's not just scaling down a department with 25 full-time faculty and 80 adjuncts.

Go look at colleges mentioned on this thread as having tiny enrollments.  Take a tour through some of the colleges trying to pick up students from MacMurray and place your guesses on how long those places will remain open.


Ask yourself how many students will pick places that brag about having 25-40 student groups and small class sizes of under 20 when those won't be face-to-face classes.

Ask yourself how big a selection of electives are offered with only 2-5 faculty members in a department and how appealing that is to students who want a true liberal arts education.

I pick concrete examples in an effort to give additional perspective to those who may have an intellectual idea but don't really deep-in-their-guts know the stark realities of the breadth of US higher ed.

As an enthusiast for SLAC's I have followed the thread fairly closely. The examples of failing schools are depressing, but somehow comprehensible: There is a concept called "minimum efficient scale", an answer to the question of how many customers must a college have to be financially self-supporting. I do not know the precisely right answer, of course, but the Wikipedia entry for SLAC's  claims that private SLAC's typically have under 2700 students. This seems an amazingly small number to me, way too few students to cover all costs. Public SLAC's are said to be typically under 5000. This seems a more reasonable size to me, though I know not if it's big enough.

Point is that SLACs dying is systematic, and not just a collection of examples. A cure would lie in raising number of students [mergers and acquisitions, but when does it stop being a SLAC?] and wondering about and trying to control costs. I think more SLAC's will inevitably go down the tubes.

SLACs with under 2,700 students are quite common.  My alma mater has hovered around 1,400 for decades.  I've seen it said in several places that having under 1,000 students makes it very hard for a college to manage the economies of scale needed to survive in today's world.  Polly has abundantly documented the reasons why this is so.  She makes a persuasive case for why schools in that range are in very, very big trouble in an environment where costs are out of control and competition for students has grown fierce--unless they have something exceptional going for them, like deep pockets, a loyal, wealthy alumni base, or a very strong niche that they fill. 

Most of these little private schools filled niches back in the day.  In a day when people tended to be more regionally-bound than they are now, a little school served as its region's place for training ministers and potential ministers' wives for a particular religious confession, or as a finishing school for the region's wealthy families, or the only place in the region that welcomed black students.  During the postwar era, when demand for college exploded, some trade schools saw an opportunity to get jumped up to college status. 

Now students--at least those with money to spend--are less place-bound, the overall market for college is shrinking dramatically, there's less demand for genteel finishing school educations, higher ed is in principle desegregated, and many religiously-affiliated schools have lost most of their identity.  They've lost their niches, and they just aren't sustainable any longer.  Polly is surely correct that we're going to see many more of these shut their doors, especially now that the world is experiencing this Covid-19 shock.  I hope that not-so-tiny schools like my alma mater still have a fighting chance.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 02, 2020, 08:23:37 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 02, 2020, 05:39:34 AM
So one way to vastly reduce the reliance on adjuncts would be to remove the "box-checking" English requirements (which lots of other English speaking countries don't have and seem to do fine without.)

You, Marshy, are the kind of guy I imagine shopping at Hobby Lobby.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 02, 2020, 08:42:20 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 02, 2020, 08:20:05 AM
I hope that not-so-tiny schools like my alma mater still have a fighting chance.

This is where we have to do more than hope.

I am sure Polly is right.  This virus hit at exactly the wrong time.

But what are we going to do about it?  Personally I can see no way up without public and government support. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 02, 2020, 10:47:58 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 02, 2020, 08:42:20 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 02, 2020, 08:20:05 AM
I hope that not-so-tiny schools like my alma mater still have a fighting chance.

This is where we have to do more than hope.

I am sure Polly is right.  This virus hit at exactly the wrong time.

But what are we going to do about it?  Personally I can see no way up without public and government support.

From this, it sounds like the public support is pretty limited.

Quote from: apl68 on April 02, 2020, 08:20:05 AM


Most of these little private schools filled niches back in the day.  In a day when people tended to be more regionally-bound than they are now, a little school served as its region's place for training ministers and potential ministers' wives for a particular religious confession, or as a finishing school for the region's wealthy families, or the only place in the region that welcomed black students.  During the postwar era, when demand for college exploded, some trade schools saw an opportunity to get jumped up to college status. 

Now students--at least those with money to spend--are less place-bound, the overall market for college is shrinking dramatically, there's less demand for genteel finishing school educations, higher ed is in principle desegregated, and many religiously-affiliated schools have lost most of their identity.  They've lost their niches, and they just aren't sustainable any longer.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 02, 2020, 11:07:31 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 02, 2020, 08:42:20 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 02, 2020, 08:20:05 AM
I hope that not-so-tiny schools like my alma mater still have a fighting chance.

This is where we have to do more than hope.

Not sure what I, personally, could do to try to save my alma mater.  I don't have much money to give them, nor any children to steer that way when they're ready for college.  I'm not an academic myself, so can do nothing at the professional level.

Public bailout support?  Well, I suppose we could try lobbying for that.  But Alma Mater is a denominationally-affiliated school that still, to at least some extent, takes its religious mission seriously.  Taking money from the public would raise separation of church and state issues.  It would also expose the school to the secular version of the Golden Rule--who has the gold makes the rules.  Federal funding would surely come at a price, and over time the demands would likely change. 

Our faith tradition still takes stances on certain issues that are very out of step with what's now the conventional wisdom in our broader culture.  If our colleges took money from the public, while still taking what we consider biblical stances on those issues, a lot of people would be up in arms about that.  And who's to say that down the line another administration might not order those schools to toe the line on these issues or face the consequences?  If a friendly presidential administration were to offer Alma Mater some support, I for one would urge them NOT to accept it so as not to become dependent on that money.  What the State gives the State can take away.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 02, 2020, 11:25:45 AM
Yeah, I totally understand.  As I've posted before, there is no silver bullet.  Some of these places are just going to die.

I hope, however, that we can start lobbying, not just for your alma mater, but for other schools for the long run---probably after the pandemic is over. 

I would like to see our professional associations more involved (I just renewed my membership in MLA because it started a fund for out of work adjuncts), our politicians more involved, our mega-rich more involved (write Bill Gates a letter---probably won't do any good, but you never know), our churches more involved, grassroots kick-starter programs more involved, the media more involved (I'm working on activist journalism right now), and yeah, alumni more involved----all those things academics know about but seem unable to access.

And I am hoping the incredibly erudite, creative people in academia will be able to agitate for their own industry, which doesn't happen very much.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 02, 2020, 05:16:24 PM
CHE has a good article on institutional finances. (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Coronavirus-Has-Choked-Off/248404?key=Q-8a5P7D5OHujVB3ZSRDR5Byz4Oq8gfxKFddHpcL6ESY5B5roc35YgZpf1qziHXPeS1sX3U5N20walA1WFJwMXdjVGpubkt3UWYxalRrVXVxUDBOTENwUXpJaw)


Wahoo, is the goal now to preserve small schools?  That's a very different goal than consolidating adjunct jobs.  You still won't like the answer that starts with closing many to redistribute students and faculty while continuing to change the mission to meet current student interests.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 02, 2020, 07:09:49 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 02, 2020, 05:16:24 PM
CHE has a good article on institutional finances. (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Coronavirus-Has-Choked-Off/248404?key=Q-8a5P7D5OHujVB3ZSRDR5Byz4Oq8gfxKFddHpcL6ESY5B5roc35YgZpf1qziHXPeS1sX3U5N20walA1WFJwMXdjVGpubkt3UWYxalRrVXVxUDBOTENwUXpJaw)


Wahoo, is the goal now to preserve small schools?  That's a very different goal than consolidating adjunct jobs.  You still won't like the answer that starts with closing many to redistribute students and faculty while continuing to change the mission to meet current student interests.

I posted elsewhere that if any of the small regional, financially challenged SLACs surrounding my healthy but mediocre R2 (and drawing almost exclusively on the same pool of uninspired, mediocre students) goes under it is very good news for us.  I worked on the side for one of these a couple of years ago when they were already emailing faculty about ideas for "alternative revenue streams."

This collapse of local, redundant, undistinguished SLACs, even one or two, would benefit me personally as my R2 job gets much more secure when options for regional students diminish.   

As long as we have a couple low-paid adjunct platoons teaching lower division writing classes I get to teach the more interesting advanced writing, business writing, and literature classes.

How should I feel about "the answer"?  Be honest, Polly. You've posted an article telling us what we know.  What is "the answer" you envision?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 03, 2020, 05:08:56 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 02, 2020, 07:09:49 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 02, 2020, 05:16:24 PM
CHE has a good article on institutional finances. (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Coronavirus-Has-Choked-Off/248404?key=Q-8a5P7D5OHujVB3ZSRDR5Byz4Oq8gfxKFddHpcL6ESY5B5roc35YgZpf1qziHXPeS1sX3U5N20walA1WFJwMXdjVGpubkt3UWYxalRrVXVxUDBOTENwUXpJaw)


Wahoo, is the goal now to preserve small schools?  That's a very different goal than consolidating adjunct jobs.  You still won't like the answer that starts with closing many to redistribute students and faculty while continuing to change the mission to meet current student interests.

I posted elsewhere that if any of the small regional, financially challenged SLACs surrounding my healthy but mediocre R2 (and drawing almost exclusively on the same pool of uninspired, mediocre students) goes under it is very good news for us.  I worked on the side for one of these a couple of years ago when they were already emailing faculty about ideas for "alternative revenue streams."

This collapse of local, redundant, undistinguished SLACs, even one or two, would benefit me personally as my R2 job gets much more secure when options for regional students diminish.   

I'm with Polly on the question of what your priorities are. Everything above is conditional, so it's not clear whether you think it ought to happen. One of my frustrations in discussions with Mahaggony is that I can never get a clear idea of his vision for what the "ideal" academic workforce should be.

A decode or two ago here the local school board was talking about how high schools of under 1000 students were not very viable, since they couldn't offer the range of courses or extracurricular activities of bigger schools. For a post-secondary institution, that has got to be magnified.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apostrophe on April 03, 2020, 10:53:08 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 02, 2020, 08:00:00 AM
Quote from: pgher on April 02, 2020, 04:58:00 AM
Quote from: apostrophe on April 02, 2020, 03:44:15 AM
And it's the flagship university of the state, right?

No. The flagship is in Fayetteville.

Yes, Fayetteville is the flagship school.  UALR has always been considered a strong #2 school in the Arkansas public higher education world.  But Arkansas, like most states, has seen a decline in the number of high school graduates.  This has hit some schools harder than others.  UALR, for whatever reason, has been particularly hard hit.

I am somewhat comforted to learn it's #2 but am still taken aback by the proposed cuts/reductions for the second most important public school. Where are other people going to school?

Googling ran into paywalls, but I spotted a line from a NYTimes article from 2016 reporting that Arkansas takes more out-of-state students than it sends out. US News says 31% of residents have bachelor's degrees. Low percentage, but I can't draw any conclusions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on April 03, 2020, 12:08:17 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 01, 2020, 07:56:06 AM
Perhaps more people need to know that approximately 40% of everyone who starts college drops out before earning a degree. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/09/10/a-dereliction-duty-college-dropout-scandal-how-fix-it/)

I don't know if this was in response to my earlier comment, but students drop out for many reasons. If they're not talented enough for college, they're usually gone after one year. As a percentage of all students in the university at a point in time, the ones that don't have the talent is very small, even if 40% of those that start are terrible.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 03, 2020, 01:05:00 PM
Quote from: apostrophe on April 03, 2020, 10:53:08 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 02, 2020, 08:00:00 AM
Quote from: pgher on April 02, 2020, 04:58:00 AM
Quote from: apostrophe on April 02, 2020, 03:44:15 AM
And it's the flagship university of the state, right?

No. The flagship is in Fayetteville.

Yes, Fayetteville is the flagship school.  UALR has always been considered a strong #2 school in the Arkansas public higher education world.  But Arkansas, like most states, has seen a decline in the number of high school graduates.  This has hit some schools harder than others.  UALR, for whatever reason, has been particularly hard hit.

I am somewhat comforted to learn it's #2 but am still taken aback by the proposed cuts/reductions for the second most important public school. Where are other people going to school?

Don't know, but I suspect that Fayetteville's greater popularity with our declining number of students has a lot to do with the fact that Fayetteville is in a nice college town, while UALR is located in a less-than-desirable part of Little Rock. 

And yes, we are a rural state with a relatively low percentage of college degree holders.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 03, 2020, 02:10:03 PM
Quote from: apl68 on April 03, 2020, 01:05:00 PM
I suspect that Fayetteville's greater popularity with our declining number of students has a lot to do with the fact that Fayetteville is in a nice college town, while UALR is located in a less-than-desirable part of Little Rock. 

Good to read that you don't attribute the difference to football.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 03, 2020, 04:17:43 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 02, 2020, 07:09:49 PM
How should I feel about "the answer"?  Be honest, Polly. You've posted an article telling us what we know.  What is "the answer" you envision?

What goal or related goals are we trying to achieve?  I ask because it's been years of discussion and I can identify multiple, conflicting goals that you have expressed.  To list just a few recent ones:

* Create additional good enough jobs for specific fields where many graduate holders want to be faculty and tend to end up as adjuncts
* Eliminate the bad adjunct jobs so people can't take them
* Promote the liberal arts as "the" college degree in contrast to job training
* Save the liberal arts at large by preserving everything we currently have
* Save the variety of higher ed institutions by whatever means necessary
* Ensure that students are getting what they are paying for by changing who is teaching the general education classes

I can think of others that would be putting words in your mouth, but it's pretty clear that you would agree with the sentiment if not the actual words.

You have never liked the solution that goes:

* Accept that students have voted with their feet for decades so that most college degree holders are in professional programs like nursing, engineering, education, and social work or are in job-related programs like business or criminal justice.  Holding up the liberal arts (1/3 major, 1/3 gen ed, 1/3 electives) as a model of the standard student ignores how most students go through college.  First up, we change the standard college models to reflect how most students go through college.

* Ditch college general education in favor of better K-12 education.  Because most of us who are well into middle age have college degrees that aren't in the liberal arts and have often changed careers multiple times, any assertion that one must have a liberal arts education instead of a professional preparation tend to be discounted.  We are likely to be supportive of the idea that literature, history, philosophy, and other humanities as areas of human knowledge are important, but we are very skeptical that checklist general education that only require a couple total humanities courses are somehow teaching people what they need to know in those areas.  Putting the resources into much better K-12 education is the solution to the problem of needing a population who has that relevant knowledge and will continue to learn through adulthood.

* Limit college to folks who show they will benefit from attending at the time of enrollment.  Reducing the college going population to who will make good use of the resources and has demonstrated an interest as well as some ability in college would do a lot to make the resources stretch.  Changing how college is funded would help as long as we look carefully at how our first-world peers deal with the problems of pick at most two from (a) cheap/free, (b) open to all who wish to try, and (c) high quality.  College shouldn't be only for those with money, but we do need to ensure that those without personal money are in good positions to make use of the courses being taught this term instead of working more-than-full-time jobs while having substantial care-taking duties.

* Modify college standard practices based on the current known population.  Why is four years of more-than-the-minimum-full-time attendance (12 credits per semester for financial aid, but averaging at least 15 credits per term is required to graduate in four years for a 120 credit degree) standard when so many 18 year olds start as part-time students and intend to stay that way because of their complicated lives?  Changing the expected curriculum to accommodate multiple standard paths through various degrees would help a lot.  Building on the general education elimination, having people spend their intro time in areas where they have declared a major, perhaps as shadowing/observations/internships/co-ops, would both help people make good decisions earlier and give relevant experience as well as formal classroom experience.

* Purposely examining current institutions and their missions for consolidation/closing/updating/additional targeted support instead of just letting whoever ran out of money first close would be a good way to ensure we are serving all the students.  There is a place for some of the institutions that will give in-person education in far flung places or have their mission as serving those who aren't well served by huge institutions that rely on good-enough prepared students.  We definitely don't need all the ones we have and some should have been closed years ago to free up students, faculty, and resources to where they would do more good.

* There's definitely a place for a good liberal arts education, but that's a specialty mission of certain institutions, not the default for everywhere that is already honored more by word than by observable action.  Even to the end, MacMurray lists itself as upholding the liberal arts and there's just no way that could possibly be true if this semester is any indication of the past few years.

I know Wahoo won't like this solution because it makes clear that most people who have humanities graduate degrees who want academic jobs of any kind can't have them any more.  The academic job slots go to fields where student demand is high and we're having trouble getting enough qualified faculty.  The things Wahoo wants to save are the very things that must be cut first to redirect resources into what people need and for which they will pay instead of what some academics want for them that looks a lot like job preservation more than high educational standards.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 03, 2020, 06:05:10 PM
OMG Polly, when do you have the time to write all these?

Let me respond as best I can piecemeal as I try to get other stuff done.

Quote from: polly_mer on April 03, 2020, 04:17:43 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 02, 2020, 07:09:49 PM
How should I feel about "the answer"?  Be honest, Polly. You've posted an article telling us what we know.  What is "the answer" you envision?

What goal or related goals are we trying to achieve?  I ask because it's been years of discussion and I can identify multiple, conflicting goals that you have expressed.  To list just a few recent ones:

* Create additional good enough jobs for specific fields where many graduate holders want to be faculty and tend to end up as adjuncts - YES

* Eliminate the bad adjunct jobs so people can't take them - YES, more or less.  I hadn't thought of them in quite those terms.

* Promote the liberal arts as "the" college degree in contrast to job training - NO. AT LEAST THAT IS NOT THE WAY I THINK ABOUT IT AND IT'S NOT THE WAY A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK OF IT  We know that most students go to college because of career concerns.  But college does more than just train people for specific jobs.  If job training was the singular goal of college you could train, say, underwriters in about 6 months, maybe less including grammar, report & business-letter format; ERISA, & HIPAA laws; basic decimals for calculating premium; basic Microsoft Office programs; and basic, accounting, HR & management skills should our student progress up the corporate ladder.  We could train people to do a "job" in a very short time and for very little money.  Is that what we want from a college education?

* Save the liberal arts at large by preserving everything we currently have - NO.  Times change, education changes.  But neither do I want the college core gutted.  I believe that a lot of people have been radicalized about college.  I believe it started with student revolt in the '60s and morphed into a political ax to grind.  And I think you are wrong about the effect all these "checked boxes" have on students.  I think they are important.  For instance, in this day and age I cannot comprehend gutting language and history requirements----if there is a time to be aware of other cultures and the forces of history, it is now.  Poly Sci and sociology too.

* Save the variety of higher ed institutions by whatever means necessary[/s] - ZEALOUSLY OVERSTATED (naughty! naughty!)  I would like to see America use its massive wealth to voluntarily save as many of our colleges as possible.  On this I have been pretty clear. We take higher ed for granted.  Someday we will regret that.

* Ensure that students are getting what they are paying for by changing who is teaching the general education classes - MORE OF LESS.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 04, 2020, 06:08:48 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 03, 2020, 06:05:10 PM

I would like to see America use its massive wealth to voluntarily save as many of our colleges as possible.  On this I have been pretty clear. We take higher ed for granted.  Someday we will regret that.


What does that even mean???? Until enrollment drops by 20%? 50%? 90%? Is there any objective criterion or set of criteria that you would accept to determine when it's time to pull the plug? Everything I've seen from you suggests there's never a time when you're not going to blame "government" or someone else for the failure of an institution to attract enough students to make it viable.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 04, 2020, 09:16:41 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 03, 2020, 04:17:43 PM
* Accept that students have voted with their feet for decades so that most college degree holders are in professional programs like nursing, engineering, education, and social work or are in job-related programs like business or criminal justice.  Holding up the liberal arts (1/3 major, 1/3 gen ed, 1/3 electives) as a model of the standard student ignores how most students go through college.  First up, we change the standard college models to reflect how most students go through college.

Sometimes, Polly, when we are too uptight about an issue or concern, we either hear what we want other people to say instead of what they really say, or we hear our own obsessions echoed back to us. 

Have I ever denied the exodus from traditional lib arts degrees?

Part of the issue is the misconceptions about lib arts degrees and career health, which has been dealt with at length here and elsewhere.

The larger part of the issue, however, I responded to above.  What do you want from a college degree?  I for one do not want to see an army of worker ants marching out with degrees in hand.   If Wall Street wants Trump University, let them reopen it.  Lib arts trains us broadly.  For instance, I gently castigated a group of nice young men in business writing class who wrote a proposal about eliminating environmental science.  I reminded them that ecology is a big concern for business in this day an age; having an introduction to environmental science is actually a very good idea.  This is what college is now. I'd hate to see that vanish.

Quote from: polly_mer on April 03, 2020, 04:17:43 PM
* Ditch college general education in favor of better K-12 education.  Because most of us who are well into middle age have college degrees that aren't in the liberal arts and have often changed careers multiple times, any assertion that one must have a liberal arts education instead of a professional preparation tend to be discounted.  We are likely to be supportive of the idea that literature, history, philosophy, and other humanities as areas of human knowledge are important, but we are very skeptical that checklist general education that only require a couple total humanities courses are somehow teaching people what they need to know in those areas.  Putting the resources into much better K-12 education is the solution to the problem of needing a population who has that relevant knowledge and will continue to learn through adulthood.

Ha!  If you've got the magic wand to recalibrate secondary ed, then wave it.  Zap those property taxes right into a healthy balance that gives the truly massive, truly diverse, truly inequitable nation of secondary education the upgrade you envision.

This is where I begin to think you are being disingenuous, Polly.  If it is quixotic to revive higher ed, it is triply quixotic to turn American education into a college equivalent.  If you are talking about a decade long restructuring of secondary ed (which is what we are talking about, right?), I am talking about a decades long revival of higher ed starting now before it is too late.  As much great info as you provide, and as smart and as informed as you are, you're bitter and you'd like to pull down the Walls of Jericho surrounding the Tower.

Or, how about this, let's invest in all levels of education!  America is already falling behind other industrial countries in the world according to questionable standardized testing.  We're in danger of falling back even farther.  Do you think you are helping the cause?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 04, 2020, 10:09:01 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 04, 2020, 09:16:41 AM
The larger part of the issue, however, I responded to above.  What do you want from a college degree?  I for one do not want to see an army of worker ants marching out with degrees in hand.   If Wall Street wants Trump University, let them reopen it.  Lib arts trains us broadly.  For instance, I gently castigated a group of nice young men in business writing class who wrote a proposal about eliminating environmental science.  I reminded them that ecology is a big concern for business in this day an age; having an introduction to environmental science is actually a very good idea.  This is what college is now. I'd hate to see that vanish.

This is a hole with no bottom. Right now, an introduction to microbiology and epidemiology would be really helpful. Also, an introduction to economics to understand global supply chains. During Hurrucane Katrina meteorology and civil engineering would have been great. Around 9/11 religious history. When the Arab spring happened some political sience would have helped to understand those systems..........

There is no end to what would be really useful for students to have some knowledge of; they could take an "introduction" to 40 different topics and nothing else over 4 years and have useful general knowledge but nothing close to a degree.

The question is who ought to decide which things students "have to" be introduced to outside the areas they want to study. Anyone who thinks themselves entitled to make that call for everyone else probably shouldn't be in a position of that much power.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 04, 2020, 05:28:31 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 03, 2020, 04:17:43 PM
* Limit college to folks who show they will benefit from attending at the time of enrollment.  Reducing the college going population to who will make good use of the resources and has demonstrated an interest as well as some ability in college would do a lot to make the resources stretch.  Changing how college is funded would help as long as we look carefully at how our first-world peers deal with the problems of pick at most two from (a) cheap/free, (b) open to all who wish to try, and (c) high quality.  College shouldn't be only for those with money, but we do need to ensure that those without personal money are in good positions to make use of the courses being taught this term instead of working more-than-full-time jobs while having substantial care-taking duties.

Some of this was a bit difficult in syntactic terms so I am not sure exactly what you are suggesting.  I didn't follow the "problem of pick" bit, but maybe that's just my bad.

I guess you are talking about raising admission standards.  Sure.  Maybe.  There are problems with that, of course.  You will have the very simple problem of telling tax payers that their children can't go to University of X or their local CC because their children will not benefit at the time of enrollment----you are familiar with UW-Madison and their boondoggles with admissions, I take it. 

And how are you going to determine who "will benefit from attending at the time of enrollment" anyway?   Sometimes some weirdo suggests psychometric testing for various degree programs---is that what you are talking about? 

As it is now, virtually anyone can take a shot at college, at least theoretically. Even if one is a very bad student with personal problems, one can enroll at a CC or an open-enrollment institution like the one I teach at. I don't see how that is a problem, even given student loan debt (which I know a bit about personally) and graduation rates (with a deceptive mean).  People have the right to make choices, even if they are ultimately bad choices. 

It's axiomatic that our resources would go farther if only "college material" students applied for college and the great unwashed did unwashed things with their lives, but you've now limited personal choice.

People have the right to try to get an education whether or not other people think they should, particularly when tax dollars pay for the local CC or R2 or DIII oven-enrollment teaching colleges as well as the public ivies or what have you.  We've talked about this before.  Many people bloom in college, many more simply get through but have a degree at the end even if it appears that would not "benefit from attending at the time of enrollment." 

I understand you, like Marty Nemko, thinks one answer is professionalization through things like internships and apprenticeships----and sure, why not?  But, with all due respect, who are you to tell somebody they can't go to college because of some metric indicating that they will not "benefit from attending at the time of enrollment"?

I'm not sure what you are getting at about "personal money" there at the end.  You want to get more low-SES students?  Fine with me.  But that's gonna be expensive.  Better do better faculty hiring.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 05, 2020, 02:21:39 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 04, 2020, 05:28:31 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 03, 2020, 04:17:43 PM
* Limit college to folks who show they will benefit from attending at the time of enrollment.  Reducing the college going population to who will make good use of the resources and has demonstrated an interest as well as some ability in college would do a lot to make the resources stretch.  Changing how college is funded would help as long as we look carefully at how our first-world peers deal with the problems of pick at most two from (a) cheap/free, (b) open to all who wish to try, and (c) high quality.  College shouldn't be only for those with money, but we do need to ensure that those without personal money are in good positions to make use of the courses being taught this term instead of working more-than-full-time jobs while having substantial care-taking duties.

Some of this was a bit difficult in syntactic terms so I am not sure exactly what you are suggesting.  I didn't follow the "problem of pick" bit, but maybe that's just my bad.


The problem is that you can have any two of the three things, but not all three together.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 05, 2020, 05:56:15 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 03, 2020, 04:17:43 PM
* Modify college standard practices based on the current known population.  Why is four years of more-than-the-minimum-full-time attendance (12 credits per semester for financial aid, but averaging at least 15 credits per term is required to graduate in four years for a 120 credit degree) standard when so many 18 year olds start as part-time students and intend to stay that way because of their complicated lives?  Changing the expected curriculum to accommodate multiple standard paths through various degrees would help a lot.  Building on the general education elimination, having people spend their intro time in areas where they have declared a major, perhaps as shadowing/observations/internships/co-ops, would both help people make good decisions earlier and give relevant experience as well as formal classroom experience.

Perhaps. It is a little hard to comment with only a brief, vague description such as this.  Your idea sounds a bit like job prep, which again is not the concept of college I would endorse.  The internship is already a fairly standard college experience as is, so I am not sure what you are proposing that isn't already provided.

Quote from: polly_mer on April 03, 2020, 04:17:43 PM
* Purposely examining current institutions and their missions for consolidation/closing/updating/additional targeted support instead of just letting whoever ran out of money first close would be a good way to ensure we are serving all the students.  There is a place for some of the institutions that will give in-person education in far flung places or have their mission as serving those who aren't well served by huge institutions that rely on good-enough prepared students.  We definitely don't need all the ones we have and some should have been closed years ago to free up students, faculty, and resources to where they would do more good.

Yeah, okay.  Again, perhaps. 

Who would do this evaluating? 

How would you do this?

Are you in favor of the government closing private colleges or simply starving colleges of student aid money if they don't meet certain standards? 

That's a lot of red tape, government intervention, and government oversight.  And you are taking opportunities away from people.  Is that what you want?

If you want to close state schools, how do you tell state tax-payers that you are, say, closing a small STEM school in SW Wisconsin across the bridge from Dubuque because it is not needed in a state peppered with satellite campuses?  Such a move would kill the little town where said university is located.  But it really is a redundant school anyway, and not highly regarded, particularly considering that the huge, powerful, world-renowned UW-Madison is just an hour away. 

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on April 05, 2020, 08:35:48 PM
Surprisingly, both sides in this thread fail to mention that many options in question already exist elsewhere in the world.
So, one can evaluate benefits/drawbacks of different options simply by looking into real-life equivalents.

Quote from: marshwiggle on April 05, 2020, 02:21:39 PM
The problem is that you can have any two of the three things, but not all three together.

  • If you have a program that's free or even cheap and open to everyone, then it can't be high quality.
  • If you have a program that's free or even cheap and it's high quality, then you can't have it open to everyone who wants it.
  • If you have a program that's open to everyone and high quality, it definitely can't be cheap.
While for any given institution this trilemma is valid, this is not the case for a country-wide education system.
Quite a few countries have two sets of institutions:
While in many respects such system sustains stratification, it still offers an option of high-quality education for poorer students.
Given that dormitories and canteens are normally heavily subsidised (and not treated as cash cows), living expenses are way less of a burden as well.

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 05, 2020, 05:56:15 PM
How would you do this?

Are you in favor of the government closing private colleges or simply starving colleges of student aid money if they don't meet certain standards? 

That's a lot of red tape, government intervention, and government oversight.  And you are taking opportunities away from people.  Is that what you want?
I am not aware of any other country where noticeable fraction of the student body is educated by private non-profit institutions (particularly, by anything resembling SLAC). I am yet to see evidence that they provide some special value relative to the other institution types (particularly, if one removes effects of rich families scions mingling with each other).
Moreover, letting them die hardly qualifies as a red tape.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 06, 2020, 04:53:40 AM
Quote from: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on April 05, 2020, 08:35:48 PM

I am not aware of any other country where noticeable fraction of the student body is educated by private non-profit institutions (particularly, by anything resembling SLAC). I am yet to see evidence that they provide some special value relative to the other institution types (particularly, if one removes effects of rich families scions mingling with each other).


This raises a point that I haven't heard anyone adress in regard to preserving "traditional" US higher ed.

If the system was developed around expensive private institutions catering to the sons of rich white men and only serving a tiny fraction of the population, why are people so convinced that the kind of education those provided is the best model for what is needed from public institutions serving a much bigger portion  of the population consisting of students who are socioeconomically and ethnically diverse and where the majority are now women?

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 06, 2020, 04:59:01 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 06, 2020, 04:53:40 AM
Quote from: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on April 05, 2020, 08:35:48 PM

I am not aware of any other country where noticeable fraction of the student body is educated by private non-profit institutions (particularly, by anything resembling SLAC). I am yet to see evidence that they provide some special value relative to the other institution types (particularly, if one removes effects of rich families scions mingling with each other).


This raises a point that I haven't heard anyone adress in regard to preserving "traditional" US higher ed.

If the system was developed around expensive private institutions catering to the sons of rich white men and only serving a tiny fraction of the population, why are people so convinced that the kind of education those provided is the best model for what is needed from public institutions serving a much bigger portion  of the population consisting of students who are socioeconomically and ethnically diverse and where the majority are now women?

The same could be asked about those LACs that were founded on the frontier by civic leaders who valued education as necessary for continued economic (and spiritual) growth but the territorial government lacked the capacity to support secondary education. (We forget how young much of the country is. Ohio was the western frontier in the 1820s.)

With statehood and substantial maturation of society, the conditions that drove those schools founding is completely absent and has been for a long time. Those are not competitive advantages today.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 06, 2020, 06:13:56 AM
I came here to post: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/04/06/colleges-announce-room-and-board-refund-plans-students-are-asking-more


Let's just address the jobs versus education question again. Someone on a recent thread was annoyed because they never explicitly equated engineering with a welding certificate.  However, that's one concrete example of the fallacy of asserting that only a liberal arts education or a good general education with a healthy dollop of humanities for everyone is doing something fabulous to prepare people for a changing life after college.

Engineering, nursing, and K-12 teaching are professional programs that usually only check the box on general education and often have almost no free electives.  However, those folks tend to do fine in changing fields after college, although the discussions in many areas are what to do about the current fact that five years out from their degrees, people with degrees in those fields are often doing something else and creating an ongoing shortage.

While one may sigh heavily about business degrees, if those folks don't have a solid K-12 education, then there's no point in assuming that one or two general education courses will make any difference in their views.  The time to enforce a broad education is during the years at the K-12 level when that's most people's full-time focus, not a few weeks as part of a complicated life. 

Doing remediation at college is an extremely inefficient use of resources, especially if one wants the broad outcome of doing research on a problem to come to a relevant conclusion instead of just voicing the expected response like "environmental protections are always worth the money"*.  Even if you want people to always voice the expected opinion, the time to inculcate that response is in early elementary when students are more receptive and have many fewer contradictory life experiences.

As my colleagues have chimed in for recent posts, only the US has the huge general education requirements in post-secondary education.  The UK is not some hell hole because their university students don't have general education requirements and even goes to the extent of having medical doctors be an undergraduate degree that one can enter straight from secondary school.  Most of Europe doesn't have general education and in fact differentiates between specializing in a major that could be, but is not limited to, a liberal arts field and having a one-specific-job training curriculum.

Even in the US, internships are important because the flexibility one needs in life and a good middle-class job are seldom learned in a formal classroom setting.  That's especially true if the formal classroom setting is so far removed from daily life as to be unrecognizable, even to the point of having to explicitly state why a certain skill is relevant outside the classroom because few students will make that connection on their own.  I laugh every time I encounter one of those very tenuous connections because it's so clear that someone was told that was important, but it's really a theoretical connection.

I will again point out the difficulties that graduate degree holders in some fields face as they try to get a job other than college teacher.  To the extent that those difficulties are something other than intellectual/emotional specific to the individual, that's supporting evidence for the weakness in the argument that a broad general education is setting people up for job and life success more than taking a specific undergraduate professional major and then deciding later to change career fields.  If major doesn't matter because most individuals won't be working in that major field anyway, then an engineering major is just as good as an English major for future life and we have evidence that it's possible an engineering major is better because then one definitely has math and computer skills.

*As a side note, people who voice that opinion are generally exposing their ignorance about the actual trade-offs involved and what the science indicates about levels of effect.  More than one law is held up in the relevant courses as being based on something other than the science related to the effects and the technological means to even just measure a level of substance, let alone differentiate between that level and 1000 times more.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 06, 2020, 09:12:59 AM
Nebraska Christian College will close:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/04/06/nebraska-christian-college-closing (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/04/06/nebraska-christian-college-closing).

Its acquisition by Hope International University in California didn't succeed. Nor could it have, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 06, 2020, 10:29:42 AM
Oh Polly, see, this is when I have a hard time reading your responses, even though I want to...

Quote from: polly_mer on April 06, 2020, 06:13:56 AM
However, that's one concrete example of the fallacy of asserting that only a liberal arts education or a good general education with a healthy dollop of humanities for everyone is doing something fabulous to prepare people for a changing life after college.

Your frustration comes through as hyperbole. 

You want better K-12?  Great.  Figure out how to do that.  I see no reason not to have both better K-12 and better higher ed.   

We have to make the commitment to pay for it all, however, and that always chaps people's hides.  We want excellence in education, we just want it really cheap. 

And sure, other countries lack the remediation and lib arts core and they are not "hell holes" or whatever (yet more frustrated hyperbole)----figure out how to recalibrate ALL education in the US based on a model that now supports, say, 3 million British college students at 240 colleges after a millennium of developing their higher ed landscape without the inequalities of a massive, young frontier / immigrant nation with the tremendous shame and burden of our racist past...

Go ahead, Polly, figure it out.

As for the "fabulous" effect of a lib arts education, I've been planning my College of Underwriting for when after the Plague is over.

Underwriting is mostly just plugging numbers into a computer program.  All the calculations are predetermined by actuarial science, so in a way a well trained monkey could be an underwriter, but insurance corporations still want a thinking human intellect somewhere in the equation. 

Theoretically the underwriter should be able to tell the salesperson that, no, the risk is too great, or no, you've promised them too much or, no, you were down-sold on the premium so sorry, you do not get a commission because I as the mighty underwriter have determined that this contract is not solid business---but you can guess how often that happens with these aggressive, macho corporate insurance salespeople (anyone ever seen Glenngarry Glen Ross?).

Companies would like to have underwriters with a college degree but can't always find these people.  Companies also like underwriters who have worked as analysts or at least processors and, at best case scenarios, have also worked as administrative reps in customer service. 

So what kind of education should this person have now that we have eliminated all this annoying box checking?

I conceive of a single 2 month academic calendar followed by a 3 month internship.

The quarter would consist of 6 hours of class-time 5X a week (the credit hours designation is unimportant now) with the understanding that students would do an additional 10 hours of studying on their own time and working PT for the corporation to gain a little hands-on skill.

Students would receive a modest stipend for attending free college (all of this is paid for by the insurance industry with government support because this is very cheap college education) and housing in well equipped dormitories actually located in the insurance company headquarters and meals comped in the cafeteria----we are living, breathing, and eating insurance at this point.  Not only are we educating underwriters, we are giving students important professional context and contacts and, of course, molding them into fabulous working machines.

Topics covered during coursework:
* Essentials of grammar, syntax, and sentence structure
* Business letter writing, report writing, and email etiquette
* Visual rhetoric and PowerPoint presentation / best forensic speech practices
-----you'd need someone like me, but the doctorate or even a master's would be superfluous; actually a college degree would be superfluous as long as the instructor could pass a simple grammar and formatting text.

* Basic insurance law & fraud
-----taught by a "professional fellow," probably one of the JDs who works in the corporation's legal division

* Basic H.R., best management practices, accounting and P.R.
-----a seminar team-taught by various executives from each of these offices (more professional contacts!)

* A practicum on insurance analysis & underwriting
-----obviously writing a few contracts and then shadowing the professionals.

Really, that is all one needs to make a great worker bee in the insurance industry.  Actually, our underwriters are now a bit over-qualified to plug numbers into a computer, so we've done a great job of educating them and they are poised to climb the corporate ladder if they so choose. 

Each industry, from computer programming to waste management, would have their own micro-colleges.  Sorry, you engineers and future doctors and advertising people will still need the bachelor's degree but we've shed that annoying lib arts core so you'll only need to attend something like 2 years, all on the government's dime, and the resources for your education will be EXCELLENT!  Many of your classes will be taught by eager, well-qualified volunteers, BTW.

We will also have reinstated the normal college system for you future school teachers.

After an underwriting bachelor's is conferred, the underwriter will do a 2 to 3 month paid internship, and the best companies (MetLife and the like) will require that their underwriters spend time as analysts before grasping the brass ring that they spent an entire 5 months being educated for. The most ambitious could attend night classes in finance and business management to get a second bachelor's to train the next generation of executives.

It all works out, Polly, and you would be even happier to know that, now that we have closed our massive, over-inflated colleges with their esoteric research interests that no one is really interested in in the first place, we have a lot more money for K-12.

Worker bees of the world unite!  Hyperbole rules!!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 06, 2020, 10:39:56 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 06, 2020, 10:29:42 AM

Each industry, from computer programming to waste management, would have their own micro-colleges.  Sorry, you engineers and future doctors and advertising people will still need the bachelor's degree but we've shed that annoying lib arts core so you'll only need to attend something like 2 years, all on the government's dime, and the resources for your education will be EXCELLENT!


Places without all of the US "lib arts core" have 4 year degrees for computer programming, engineering, etc. (Actually, in a lot of STEM fields it's unavoidable because of all of the prerequisites. )  The issue is probably more about depth versus breadth.

Anyone able to comment on the number of discipline-specific courses in the US with a "lib arts core" versus elsewhere without?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 06, 2020, 10:49:39 AM
Nebraska Christian College had only 140 students at its recent peak enrollment.  If that sounds absurd, then go check out https://blog.prepscholar.com/the-smallest-colleges-in-the-united-states where there are many institutions listed at approximately that size.  40% of US institutions have fewer than 1000 students.  Maybe Wahoo just doesn't know what representative of the US higher ed looks like (hint it's not the 130 R1s and 135 R2s).

When I go look at NCC specifically, there's a clear split between on campus undergrad majors (all ministry focused) and online (the typical majors one finds everywhere and still only four) (https://www.nechristian.edu/degree-programs)  They have far more master degree programs, but surely that must be the result of the merger.

The faculty listing is clearly aligned with the on-campus offerings, not the liberal arts, and there are only a handful of full-time faculty listed. (https://www.nechristian.edu/faculty) 

<on review> Ah, Wahoo, still refusing to believe the distinction between having real prerequisites that take years of focused study and a certificate program for one job.  Try reading https://www.degreequery.com/what-is-the-difference-between-an-associates-degree-in-engineering-and-a-bachelors-degree-in-engineering/ and see if the distinction becomes clearer.

If not, then read up on why Associate of Applied Sciences seldom transfers somewhere to be on track to complete a bachelor's degree while an Associate of Arts or Science in any field usually counts a fair portion towards a bachelor's degree, even if only for the general education value.

You're not convincing me that I'm wrong by doubling down on providing exactly the misconception I stated was problematic.

I'm not even going to touch the K-12 foolishness that is clearly more about faculty jobs than providing an excellent education for all Americans who wish to participate.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 06, 2020, 11:02:26 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 06, 2020, 10:49:39 AM

<on review> Ah, Wahoo, still refusing to believe the distinction between having real prerequisites that take years of focused study and a certificate program for one job.  Try reading https://www.degreequery.com/what-is-the-difference-between-an-associates-degree-in-engineering-and-a-bachelors-degree-in-engineering/ and see if the distinction becomes clearer.

If not, then read up on why Associate of Applied Sciences seldom transfers somewhere to be on track to complete a bachelor's degree while an Associate of Arts or Science in any field usually counts a fair portion towards a bachelor's degree, even if only for the general education value.

You're not convincing me that I'm wrong by doubling down on providing exactly the misconception I stated was problematic.

I'm not even going to touch the K-12 foolishness that is clearly more about faculty jobs than providing an excellent education for all Americans who wish to participate.

Not sure what you think you've proven here or what you think I didn't already know. 

Methinks the "K-12 foolishness" is a cop out.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 06, 2020, 11:12:13 AM
Quote from: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on April 05, 2020, 08:35:48 PM
I am not aware of any other country where noticeable fraction of the student body is educated by private non-profit institutions (particularly, by anything resembling SLAC). I am yet to see evidence that they provide some special value relative to the other institution types (particularly, if one removes effects of rich families scions mingling with each other).
Moreover, letting them die hardly qualifies as a red tape.

Reread.  "letting them die" was not what Polly was suggesting.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 06, 2020, 11:36:03 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 06, 2020, 10:29:42 AM

You want better K-12?  Great.  Figure out how to do that.  I see no reason not to have both better K-12 and better higher ed.   


Two things to vastly improve K-12 education:

One of the best ways to make teaching more productive is to narrow the range of ability in each class.  Whether one is teaching bright students or struggling ones, the job will be easier if the class is pretty uniform. The only reason to throw everyone in together is to create the fiction that all students of the same age are at the same level academically. Some students could get through the required curriculum in 10 years; others would need 14, but if we actually didn't let them gradaute until they really had completed it, they'd be much better off.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sylvie on April 06, 2020, 12:37:38 PM
Social promotion exists because school is compulsory (required by law), but you can't have teenagers mixing with elementary schools kids, and you can't kids driving to middle school. That's why kids can only be held back once or twice. If you want to do away with social promotion, you would have to create separate schools for the kids who don't advance in grade-level but are too old to mix with their classmates.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 06, 2020, 12:49:19 PM
Quote from: sylvie on April 06, 2020, 12:37:38 PM
Social promotion exists because school is compulsory (required by law), but you can't have teenagers mixing with elementary schools kids, and you can't kids driving to middle school. That's why kids can only be held back once or twice. If you want to do away with social promotion, you would have to create separate schools for the kids who don't advance in grade-level but are too old to mix with their classmates.

That's one option, since kids that far behind obviously need more specialized help than they can get in a normal classroom setting. Another option would be to have seperate classes, potentially in a different area of the building, so even though students are in the same age range, there's no pretense that they're at the same academic level. That would also allow them to participate in the same extracurrricular activites with age peers.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on April 06, 2020, 12:51:57 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 06, 2020, 10:49:39 AM
Nebraska Christian College had only 140 students at its recent peak enrollment.  If that sounds absurd, then go check out https://blog.prepscholar.com/the-smallest-colleges-in-the-united-states where there are many institutions listed at approximately that size.  40% of US institutions have fewer than 1000 students.  Maybe Wahoo just doesn't know what representative of the US higher ed looks like (hint it's not the 130 R1s and 135 R2s).

I was going to just ignore this, since I didn't read the rest of your post, but I don't like this claim at all. Dismissing R1s and R2s as not representative of higher education because there are only 265 institutions is a bad use of statistics. Representative is a tough concept to define because there is so much variation along so many lines. If you're going to make a numbers-based argument, you should not say "Only x% of institutions are R1 or R2, therefore they are not representative." In terms of enrollment, just the ten largest universities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_public_university_campuses_by_enrollment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_public_university_campuses_by_enrollment) have 564,290 students, which is equivalent to 1129 schools with an enrollment of 500. You'd get a similar result if you use faculty numbers or employment of PhDs by universities.

NCC can only be described as "not representative". Few students graduate from that type of institution and few faculty work there. The most recent numbers I saw showed 15% of college students attend private universities/colleges, and of those, most attend the large ones, leaving small, private colleges with a few percentage points of market share.

Sorry to interrupt. Please go back to your regularly scheduled argument.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on April 06, 2020, 12:54:57 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 06, 2020, 12:49:19 PM
Quote from: sylvie on April 06, 2020, 12:37:38 PM
Social promotion exists because school is compulsory (required by law), but you can't have teenagers mixing with elementary schools kids, and you can't kids driving to middle school. That's why kids can only be held back once or twice. If you want to do away with social promotion, you would have to create separate schools for the kids who don't advance in grade-level but are too old to mix with their classmates.

That's one option, since kids that far behind obviously need more specialized help than they can get in a normal classroom setting. Another option would be to have seperate classes, potentially in a different area of the building, so even though students are in the same age range, there's no pretense that they're at the same academic level. That would also allow them to participate in the same extracurrricular activites with age peers.


Marshwiggle: do you seriously think the things you've mentioned haven't been tried in numerous schools numerous times?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on April 06, 2020, 12:55:41 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 06, 2020, 11:36:03 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 06, 2020, 10:29:42 AM

You want better K-12?  Great.  Figure out how to do that.  I see no reason not to have both better K-12 and better higher ed.   


Two things to vastly improve K-12 education:

  • Eliminate "social promotion"; kids don't advance until they're academically capable.
  • Stream early in high school. Have paths to move between streams, but like the item above, don't pretend students are capable when they're not.

One of the best ways to make teaching more productive is to narrow the range of ability in each class.  Whether one is teaching bright students or struggling ones, the job will be easier if the class is pretty uniform. The only reason to throw everyone in together is to create the fiction that all students of the same age are at the same level academically. Some students could get through the required curriculum in 10 years; others would need 14, but if we actually didn't let them gradaute until they really had completed it, they'd be much better off.

This assumes it is actually possible to measure the range of ability in each class in the first place. And then being able to parse out different abilities in different classes. So what happens to the kid who really knows his letters but struggles with phonics? The kid who is great with phonics but has trouble finding the main idea in a sentence? The one who is really bright and verbal but struggles with remembering the order of the alphabet?

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 06, 2020, 01:06:02 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 06, 2020, 12:54:57 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 06, 2020, 12:49:19 PM
That's one option, since kids that far behind obviously need more specialized help than they can get in a normal classroom setting. Another option would be to have seperate classes, potentially in a different area of the building, so even though students are in the same age range, there's no pretense that they're at the same academic level. That would also allow them to participate in the same extracurrricular activites with age peers.


Marshwiggle: do you seriously think the things you've mentioned haven't been tried in numerous schools numerous times?

They're usually stopped for political reasons, rather than pedagogical reasons. For instance, parents beg for social promotion so their kid can stay with his/her friends. The one thing that caving in to this tells students is that school is really about image, not performance, and looking successful is more important than actually succeeding.

Quote from: ciao_yall on April 06, 2020, 12:55:41 PM
This assumes it is actually possible to measure the range of ability in each class in the first place. And then being able to parse out different abilities in different classes. So what happens to the kid who really knows his letters but struggles with phonics? The kid who is great with phonics but has trouble finding the main idea in a sentence? The one who is really bright and verbal but struggles with remembering the order of the alphabet?

Kids with complex needs like this are precisely the ones who need specialized help, which they can't get in a class of 35 (or even 20). On the other hand, the more uniform the class is they less class size affects performance. So, by having uniform classes which are larger it frees up resources (i.e. money) to have smaller classes for students with more particular needs.

On the other hand, having a big range of abilities in one class means the bright kids are bored, the weak ones are frustrated, and the teacher is stressed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 06, 2020, 01:10:41 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 06, 2020, 12:54:57 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 06, 2020, 12:49:19 PM
Quote from: sylvie on April 06, 2020, 12:37:38 PM
Social promotion exists because school is compulsory (required by law), but you can't have teenagers mixing with elementary schools kids, and you can't kids driving to middle school. That's why kids can only be held back once or twice. If you want to do away with social promotion, you would have to create separate schools for the kids who don't advance in grade-level but are too old to mix with their classmates.

That's one option, since kids that far behind obviously need more specialized help than they can get in a normal classroom setting. Another option would be to have seperate classes, potentially in a different area of the building, so even though students are in the same age range, there's no pretense that they're at the same academic level. That would also allow them to participate in the same extracurrricular activites with age peers.


Marshwiggle: do you seriously think the things you've mentioned haven't been tried in numerous schools numerous times?

Marshy knows almost nothing about the things he comment on.

I ignore him.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 06, 2020, 01:19:56 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 06, 2020, 01:10:41 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 06, 2020, 12:54:57 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 06, 2020, 12:49:19 PM
Quote from: sylvie on April 06, 2020, 12:37:38 PM
Social promotion exists because school is compulsory (required by law), but you can't have teenagers mixing with elementary schools kids, and you can't kids driving to middle school. That's why kids can only be held back once or twice. If you want to do away with social promotion, you would have to create separate schools for the kids who don't advance in grade-level but are too old to mix with their classmates.

That's one option, since kids that far behind obviously need more specialized help than they can get in a normal classroom setting. Another option would be to have seperate classes, potentially in a different area of the building, so even though students are in the same age range, there's no pretense that they're at the same academic level. That would also allow them to participate in the same extracurrricular activites with age peers.


Marshwiggle: do you seriously think the things you've mentioned haven't been tried in numerous schools numerous times?

Marshy knows almost nothing about the things he comment on.

I ignore him.

Or, google "teacher burnout" and see how much of it is  due to issues like I've mentioned.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on April 06, 2020, 02:53:26 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 06, 2020, 01:19:56 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 06, 2020, 01:10:41 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 06, 2020, 12:54:57 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 06, 2020, 12:49:19 PM
Quote from: sylvie on April 06, 2020, 12:37:38 PM
Social promotion exists because school is compulsory (required by law), but you can't have teenagers mixing with elementary schools kids, and you can't kids driving to middle school. That's why kids can only be held back once or twice. If you want to do away with social promotion, you would have to create separate schools for the kids who don't advance in grade-level but are too old to mix with their classmates.


Marshwiggle: there is a long history of good research that you obviously haven't read. And, before someone chimes in with some nonsense about double blind studies, I'll remind you the best one can do in actual school research with actual students in actual classroom, the best you can do is single blind.

I've busted my ass in schools for 40 years. I KNOW about political reasons innovations are stopped. It isn't just parents. It is also academics (such as Peter Navarro) who talk as though they know things they don't know shit about.

Math prof, with extensive statistics background for any who might wonder.
That's one option, since kids that far behind obviously need more specialized help than they can get in a normal classroom setting. Another option would be to have seperate classes, potentially in a different area of the building, so even though students are in the same age range, there's no pretense that they're at the same academic level. That would also allow them to participate in the same extracurrricular activites with age peers.


Marshwiggle: do you seriously think the things you've mentioned haven't been tried in numerous schools numerous times?

Marshy knows almost nothing about the things he comment on.

I ignore him.

Or, google "teacher burnout" and see how much of it is  due to issues like I've mentioned.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 06, 2020, 02:58:14 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 06, 2020, 12:54:57 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 06, 2020, 12:49:19 PM
Quote from: sylvie on April 06, 2020, 12:37:38 PM
Social promotion exists because school is compulsory (required by law), but you can't have teenagers mixing with elementary schools kids, and you can't kids driving to middle school. That's why kids can only be held back once or twice. If you want to do away with social promotion, you would have to create separate schools for the kids who don't advance in grade-level but are too old to mix with their classmates.

That's one option, since kids that far behind obviously need more specialized help than they can get in a normal classroom setting. Another option would be to have seperate classes, potentially in a different area of the building, so even though students are in the same age range, there's no pretense that they're at the same academic level. That would also allow them to participate in the same extracurrricular activites with age peers.


Marshwiggle: do you seriously think the things you've mentioned haven't been tried in numerous schools numerous times?

We could also change the laws and not make attendance mandatory for those who clearly aren't getting much out of school.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 06, 2020, 03:06:16 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 06, 2020, 02:58:14 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 06, 2020, 12:54:57 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 06, 2020, 12:49:19 PM
Quote from: sylvie on April 06, 2020, 12:37:38 PM
Social promotion exists because school is compulsory (required by law), but you can't have teenagers mixing with elementary schools kids, and you can't kids driving to middle school. That's why kids can only be held back once or twice. If you want to do away with social promotion, you would have to create separate schools for the kids who don't advance in grade-level but are too old to mix with their classmates.

That's one option, since kids that far behind obviously need more specialized help than they can get in a normal classroom setting. Another option would be to have seperate classes, potentially in a different area of the building, so even though students are in the same age range, there's no pretense that they're at the same academic level. That would also allow them to participate in the same extracurrricular activites with age peers.


Marshwiggle: do you seriously think the things you've mentioned haven't been tried in numerous schools numerous times?

We could also change the laws and not make attendance mandatory for those who clearly aren't getting much out of school.

Sure, if we changed the child labor laws literacy would be unnecessary. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 06, 2020, 06:03:58 PM
CHE reports on hard choices higher ed presidents must make (https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Hard-Choices-Presidents/248423?key=Q-8a5P7D5OHujVB3ZSRDR8X-pvCt8xeJVIP3kDTvMUT3nof0kvPuyut7Xz0j-KF2Vkl2TXpQZURDd0dpNHV5Y1pyZVlfTndBZ3lZc0xPcnNfeDk2S0ZacTBQWQ)

I am amused at the idea that more seat time somehow leads to high rates of literacy by people who resist learning.

Whether a entity is representative depends on what population is being described.  Most students do indeed attend large institutions, but relatively few institutions are large.  The institutions at highest risk of just closing are not large nor are they research oriented.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 06, 2020, 10:22:44 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 06, 2020, 06:03:58 PM
CHE reports on hard choices higher ed presidents must make (https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Hard-Choices-Presidents/248423?key=Q-8a5P7D5OHujVB3ZSRDR8X-pvCt8xeJVIP3kDTvMUT3nof0kvPuyut7Xz0j-KF2Vkl2TXpQZURDd0dpNHV5Y1pyZVlfTndBZ3lZc0xPcnNfeDk2S0ZacTBQWQ)

I am amused at the idea that more seat time somehow leads to high rates of literacy by people who resist learning.

That is why we give them tests and papers and pop quizzes and research projects and such like. 

You know that's what we do at school, right?  That's the "somehow" in higher rates of literacy.  Try as one might, the learnin's gonna get'cha if you go to school, maybe not to the degree one finds in the best of all possible worlds where Polly lives but book-learnin' takes place nevertheless.

Article's a bummer, man.  Scary. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 07, 2020, 05:41:02 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 06, 2020, 06:03:58 PM
CHE reports on hard choices higher ed presidents must make (https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Hard-Choices-Presidents/248423?key=Q-8a5P7D5OHujVB3ZSRDR8X-pvCt8xeJVIP3kDTvMUT3nof0kvPuyut7Xz0j-KF2Vkl2TXpQZURDd0dpNHV5Y1pyZVlfTndBZ3lZc0xPcnNfeDk2S0ZacTBQWQ)

One interesting quote from the article:
Quote
The other option is to cut expenses — both administrative and academic. While this strategy is uncomfortable to pursue, this crisis provides the impetus to push past institutional inertia that has delayed what many believe are overdue changes to our fiscal and academic models. Research on the 46 members of the ABC Insights consortium, for example, shows that 61 percent of the employees and 38 percent of labor spending are dedicated to administration, which has grown at a faster rate than academic personnel at many universities.

So for all of the people concerned about administrative bloat, this suggests the tide might start to turn, with more cuts to administration than to academics.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 07, 2020, 06:42:12 AM
MacMurray will give no severance pay to faculty and staff.
(https://insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/04/07/macmurray-college-will-close-no-severance-faculty). Note that IHE calls MacMurray "a small liberal arts college", in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 06, 2020, 10:22:44 PM
  Try as one might, the learnin's gonna get'cha if you go to school

That's not what more than fifty years of research on American K-12 education indicates.

There're good reasons why many countries have a vocational path that starts around age 12 for students who aren't academically minded.

There's a weird American thing to keep everyone in school until a given age instead of letting people take other paths as their talents and interests become apparent.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 07, 2020, 06:51:04 AM
Still reading IHE,  will the higher ed stimulus money come fast enough to matter for some institutions and their students? (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/04/07/where-stimulus-money-colleges-ask?_ga=2.106879811.1510516229.1586203756-695094202.1578093145)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 07:13:18 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 07, 2020, 06:51:04 AM
Still reading IHE,  will the higher ed stimulus money come fast enough to matter for some institutions and their students? (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/04/07/where-stimulus-money-colleges-ask?_ga=2.106879811.1510516229.1586203756-695094202.1578093145)

Not sure who you are asking there, Polly.  I at least read it with a sinking heart.  And not just that one, but this one too (https://eand.co/america-is-committing-economic-suicide-c7c1f7122169). 

I don't pretend to have the knowledge base to examine these claims, I just hope that it was the right move to shutter the country, even if I perfectly understand why we did.

This is a very sad turn of events at a time when our colleges were already facing dire scenarios----which is a reason to rally all the harder once the pandemic is over. 

You're as sad as the rest of us, right Polly?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 07:16:24 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 07, 2020, 06:42:12 AM
MacMurray will give no severance pay to faculty and staff.
(https://insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/04/07/macmurray-college-will-close-no-severance-faculty). Note that IHE calls MacMurray "a small liberal arts college", in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 06, 2020, 10:22:44 PM
  Try as one might, the learnin's gonna get'cha if you go to school

That's not what more than fifty years of research on American K-12 education indicates.

There're good reasons why many countries have a vocational path that starts around age 12 for students who aren't academically minded.

There's a weird American thing to keep everyone in school until a given age instead of letting people take other paths as their talents and interests become apparent.

And the class structure hardened by many generations is greatly appreciated by everybody in the U.K. is my understanding.

Not to mention that at 12 years old our psyches, wants, abilities, and talents are very well defined.

Guess the American Dream is just dead.

You know what might help?  More teachers, better paid.  More resources.  You want more career paths (because that's what's important about education, right?)?  Great.  Now you have to pay for it.  I love how we pretend that we can always do more with less; our capitalist society certainly supports that idea. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 07, 2020, 07:52:06 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 07:13:18 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 07, 2020, 06:51:04 AM
Still reading IHE,  will the higher ed stimulus money come fast enough to matter for some institutions and their students? (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/04/07/where-stimulus-money-colleges-ask?_ga=2.106879811.1510516229.1586203756-695094202.1578093145)

Not sure who you are asking there, Polly.  I at least read it with a sinking heart.  And not just that one, but this one too (https://eand.co/america-is-committing-economic-suicide-c7c1f7122169). 

I don't pretend to have the knowledge base to examine these claims, I just hope that it was the right move to shutter the country, even if I perfectly understand why we did.

This is a very sad turn of events at a time when our colleges were already facing dire scenarios----which is a reason to rally all the harder once the pandemic is over. 


Rather than try more desperately to keep places going that were on the rocks before, a better result may be letting those fail, so the remaining students and resources can be consolidated with the healthier institutions. It's actually analogous to the adjunct issue; having a lot of financially precarious institutions replaced by a smaller number of financially more secure institutions is a good thing.  Replace "institutions" with "jobs" and you have the adjunct situation. Also, just like many current adjuncts wouldn't be qualified for full-time positions, many of the failing institutions would not ever be created now because they probably wouldn't be anyone's idea of what the "ideal" institution should be and obviously wouldn't be viable.  The financially healthy institutions will be more in line with the needs of society now.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 07, 2020, 07:57:32 AM
In other words, go with revealed preferences.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 07, 2020, 09:02:47 AM
1) It is very, very unpleasant to be shown right, have been telling people for years what they personally can do to try to lessen their individual exposure to the problem, and still be getting rudeness because, as Cassandra found out, it's not enough to be right when everything hits the fan and scared people start feeling the consequences of their inaction, despite all the explicit, concrete warnings.

Am I sad about higher education in the US?  I've been sad for years; I'm now just tired because it turns out that people who spend a lot of time in school don't necessarily become educated in the sense of being able to apply their knowledge when it counts directly in their personal life or being able to do the jobs that need doing according to the other humans who live in the same society. 

2) Wanting something really, really hard is not the same as taking the relevant actions to make something happen, even during situations when the actions to take are very firmly connected to their solutions.

3) Expecting everything will be different if everyone just wanted it really, really hard ignores centuries of human history all across the world.  It's a lovely idea that everyone is/could be/should be/will be equal.  That's not what history, experience, or any sort of objective observation of large populations of humans teaches us.

Class structure and hierarchy is almost always the result with groups of humans larger than just a handful.  If people on these fora have free time, then they can read up on the original meritocracy (always a negative term) and some of the very recent literature on why the idea of meritocracy hurts even those who are "winning" in terms of money, jobs, and status.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 10:12:53 AM
Polly, are you gloating about the effect the virus is having on education?

Did you think I or anyone else doubted you when you predicted hard times for educators?

Remember this:

W: What a shame we are losing so many colleges and so many quality people are under-employed in a bad system.  We should be talking about ways to fix it!

Polly:  Look!  You'll never get a good job in academia.  Many colleges are failing!

W:  I agree.  Let's begin talking about ways to correct the situation.

Polly: Look!  There are no more good jobs for the likes of you in academia.  Find another career.

W: I agree, kind of.  You own hyperlink talks about ways that colleges can revive themselves.

Polly:  Look!....

And so on. 

I DON"T think you are "right."  I think you are reactionary.  And we have talked long enough for me to believe that your criticisms of academia, while often valid, are based on personal issues.

And, my dear, bite me.  I am working to change things in my own small way as are a great many people, and we started to see the changes before the damn coronavirus knocked us on our keisters.  You and I would get along much better if you weren't so arrogant and condescending.

We don't know what this unprecedented event is going to mean to our future.  Right now there are an army of unemployed waitstaff who are reconsidering their futures.  Somewhere there is a parent shaking a finger at an unemployed Uber driver who is saying, "See, if you'd completed that college degree like your brother Bob you would have more options when this is over..."   So we'll have to hold off on the final dispensation of higher ed for some while yet.

My favorite is your contention that the lib arts faculty are about to be eliminated.  You couldn't figure out a way to deny that the work was there for them chopped into many fine bits, so you just decided they would disappear.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 07, 2020, 10:36:18 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 10:12:53 AM

I DON"T think you are "right."  I think you are reactionary. 

From Wikipedia:
Quote
In political science, a reactionary or reactionarist can be defined as a person or entity holding political views that favour a return to a previous political state of society that they believe possessed characteristics that are negatively absent from the contemporary status quo of a society.

Based on that, I'd say you're the reactionary; Polly is the one talking about change.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on April 07, 2020, 11:53:43 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 10:12:53 AM
We don't know what this unprecedented event is going to mean to our future.  Right now there are an army of unemployed waitstaff who are reconsidering their futures.  Somewhere there is a parent shaking a finger at an unemployed Uber driver who is saying, "See, if you'd completed that college degree like your brother Bob you would have more options when this is over..."   So we'll have to hold off on the final dispensation of higher ed for some while yet.

Maybe I've posted this before...

This is an opportunity for small colleges. Some have leadership that will find a way to get through this and then prosper, if for no other reason than the survivors getting the students and faculty from failing institutions. They need to be working on this right now, not once the storm has passed. Faculty should be putting together ideas to improve what they're doing now and to add new things employers want.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 11:54:13 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 07, 2020, 10:36:18 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 10:12:53 AM

I DON"T think you are "right."  I think you are reactionary. 

From Wikipedia:
Quote
In political science, a reactionary or reactionarist can be defined as a person or entity holding political views that favour a return to a previous political state of society that they believe possessed characteristics that are negatively absent from the contemporary status quo of a society.

Based on that, I'd say you're the reactionary; Polly is the one talking about change.

Are we in political science class, Marshy?

These are the dictionary definition of "reactionary":

Quote
re·ac·tion·ar·y

adjective
(of a person or a set of views) opposing political or social liberalization or reform.
"reactionary attitudes toward women's rights"

Quote
Definition of reactionary
: relating to, marked by, or favoring reaction
especially : ultraconservative in politics


Quote
reactionary
noun [ C ]   POLITICS   disapproving

a person who is opposed to political or social change or new ideas:
Reactionaries are preventing reforms.

Quote
contrarian

noun: Marshwiggle
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 07, 2020, 12:07:18 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 11:54:13 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 07, 2020, 10:36:18 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 10:12:53 AM

I DON"T think you are "right."  I think you are reactionary. 

From Wikipedia:
Quote
In political science, a reactionary or reactionarist can be defined as a person or entity holding political views that favour a return to a previous political state of society that they believe possessed characteristics that are negatively absent from the contemporary status quo of a society.

Based on that, I'd say you're the reactionary; Polly is the one talking about change.

Are we in political science class, Marshy?

These are the dictionary definition of "reactionary":

Quote
re·ac·tion·ar·y

adjective
(of a person or a set of views) opposing political or social liberalization or reform.
"reactionary attitudes toward women's rights"

So, for instance, wanting to preserve the form of higher educatiion created for the scions of the rich decades in the past, rather than adapting to something more reflective of the needs of a diverse society?


Quote

reactionary
noun [ C ]   POLITICS   disapproving

a person who is opposed to political or social change or new ideas:
Reactionaries are preventing reforms.

Yup. That's exactly the point.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 12:45:25 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 07, 2020, 12:07:18 PM

So, for instance, wanting to preserve the form of higher educatiion created for the scions of the rich decades in the past, rather than adapting to something more reflective of the needs of a diverse society?

Nope, my dreary, limited little friend.  I've said all along I am for reform.  Just intelligent reform that doesn't gut the important aspects of education as we conceive of it.

And I wasn't aware that, say, University of Iowa or the California State system were founded for the "scions of the rich."  Do these "scions" go to community college too?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 01:05:06 PM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 07, 2020, 11:53:43 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 10:12:53 AM
We don't know what this unprecedented event is going to mean to our future.  Right now there are an army of unemployed waitstaff who are reconsidering their futures.  Somewhere there is a parent shaking a finger at an unemployed Uber driver who is saying, "See, if you'd completed that college degree like your brother Bob you would have more options when this is over..."   So we'll have to hold off on the final dispensation of higher ed for some while yet.

Maybe I've posted this before...

This is an opportunity for small colleges. Some have leadership that will find a way to get through this and then prosper, if for no other reason than the survivors getting the students and faculty from failing institutions. They need to be working on this right now, not once the storm has passed. Faculty should be putting together ideas to improve what they're doing now and to add new things employers want.

Amen, brother.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Stockmann on April 07, 2020, 02:44:36 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 07:16:24 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 07, 2020, 06:42:12 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 06, 2020, 10:22:44 PM
  Try as one might, the learnin's gonna get'cha if you go to school

That's not what more than fifty years of research on American K-12 education indicates.

There're good reasons why many countries have a vocational path that starts around age 12 for students who aren't academically minded.

There's a weird American thing to keep everyone in school until a given age instead of letting people take other paths as their talents and interests become apparent.

And the class structure hardened by many generations is greatly appreciated by everybody in the U.K. is my understanding.

Not to mention that at 12 years old our psyches, wants, abilities, and talents are very well defined.

Guess the American Dream is just dead.

Actually, the UK does better than the US in terms of social mobility. Ironically enough, if you're born poor you're a lot more likely to achieve the American Dream in multiple European countries  (including several monarchies), as well as in Canada and Japan (both monarchies), than in the US. The US does rather badly by Western standards, although better than the other republics in the Americas. Some things have actually changed since the 18th Century. Source: http://reports.weforum.org/social-mobility-report-2020/social-mobility-rankings/ (http://reports.weforum.org/social-mobility-report-2020/social-mobility-rankings/)

But more to the point, Polly is right that streaming students by ability works. It's how K12 operates in Germany and, to varying degrees, practically everywhere in Western Europe. It's part of what allows these countries to have, compared to the US, dirt cheap HE. Could it be that cheap HE and modern apprenticeships as an alternative (not a replacement) for college works better for social mobility than sending everyone and his brother to hyperexpensive colleges?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 04:00:25 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on April 07, 2020, 02:44:36 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 07:16:24 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 07, 2020, 06:42:12 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 06, 2020, 10:22:44 PM
  Try as one might, the learnin's gonna get'cha if you go to school

That's not what more than fifty years of research on American K-12 education indicates.

There're good reasons why many countries have a vocational path that starts around age 12 for students who aren't academically minded.

There's a weird American thing to keep everyone in school until a given age instead of letting people take other paths as their talents and interests become apparent.

And the class structure hardened by many generations is greatly appreciated by everybody in the U.K. is my understanding.

Not to mention that at 12 years old our psyches, wants, abilities, and talents are very well defined.

Guess the American Dream is just dead.

Actually, the UK does better than the US in terms of social mobility. Ironically enough, if you're born poor you're a lot more likely to achieve the American Dream in multiple European countries  (including several monarchies), as well as in Canada and Japan (both monarchies), than in the US. The US does rather badly by Western standards, although better than the other republics in the Americas. Some things have actually changed since the 18th Century. Source: http://reports.weforum.org/social-mobility-report-2020/social-mobility-rankings/ (http://reports.weforum.org/social-mobility-report-2020/social-mobility-rankings/)

But more to the point, Polly is right that streaming students by ability works. It's how K12 operates in Germany and, to varying degrees, practically everywhere in Western Europe. It's part of what allows these countries to have, compared to the US, dirt cheap HE. Could it be that cheap HE and modern apprenticeships as an alternative (not a replacement) for college works better for social mobility than sending everyone and his brother to hyperexpensive colleges?

Perhaps.  I grew up in one of the towns where half the students were heading for college from the moment they started high school and half the students were heading right into local construction, supermarket, warehouse, metallurgy factory etc. jobs or into the military---these were, by and large, not people who would have (and did not generally) enroll in college and never wanted to.  We wouldn't gain very many of these folks in our halls no matter what. 

Nevertheless, I am dubious that it would be better to segregate these social classes of students.  I wasn't speaking about "social mobility" based upon income, actually, even though I used the "American Dream"----my old classmates who became contractors and metallurgy workers make a hell of a lot more than I do, I guarantee you, and they probably own their houses while we rent and they buy new F-150s while we buy Civics and used RAV4s.

I am thinking about American class warfare in which the working class look at me, a guy from a gray collar town who did a lot of blue-collar and white-collar work in his life, as an "elitist" because of my education and their assumptions about me and my lifestyle.  President Trump is a perfect symptom of the divisions in our culture. 

I will admit that I don't know a lot about streaming students, but I would worry about training teenage welders in one building and teenage journalists in another. 

But I am open-minded about this idea.  I can do my own homework, but do you have a source?

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 05:04:17 PM
I started a thread on streaming in "General Discussion."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Stockmann on April 07, 2020, 06:10:41 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 04:00:25 PM
I will admit that I don't know a lot about streaming students, but I would worry about training teenage welders in one building and teenage journalists in another. 

But I am open-minded about this idea.  I can do my own homework, but do you have a source?

My source is what I learned through the grapevine living in Europe, and long conversations about streaming with others who've lived in Europe. Wikipedia probably has a decent summary of the various systems.

But basically, in Germany at least kids are split into three streams: college prep, prep for trades that require good technical skills, and peparation for low-skilled trades. Many of those not doing college prep then go into a modern apprenticeship. What someone on this thread described as job prep for an underwriter sounded to me to be exactly what these apprenticeships do; they're not solely for manual labor, there are also apprenticeships for white collar jobs. There are Swiss bankers who started out doing a modern apprenticeship in finance. Again, this is an alternative to college, not instead of college. All European systems I'm aware of (and almost any non-US college I think) don't do gen-ed post K-12, and some drop it in HS, like England (which has a separate educational system from Scotland).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 07:01:50 PM
I started thread on this over in "General Academic Discussion."

There is a fair amount of research on streaming / tracking out there.

Yes, Wikipedia has the pros and cons.  And, not that I doubt your experience, there are a lot of cons, some of which are very specific to American culture I am sure but are cons nevertheless. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 08, 2020, 04:29:26 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 01:05:06 PM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 07, 2020, 11:53:43 AM

Faculty should be putting together ideas to improve what they're doing now and to add new things employers want.

Amen, brother.

I'm honestly confused here. Where is the line between "add new things employers want" and "job training"?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 08, 2020, 06:53:45 AM
Ah, Wahoo, you keep acting as though I'm proposing something new to be discussed and agreed upon instead of describing what has happened and likely will continue happening.

1) Small colleges with no unique mission, few resources, and no reason for anyone to pick them over other higher ed institutions are closing and will continue to close.  According to one report I linked in the past week, there are 800 of those institutions that have three of the standard red flags.  The handful of institutions who could use the current events as an opportunity would have already had to be well along the progress to change.

2) The liberal arts cannot have enough good enough full-time academic jobs for those who want them, even through consolidation of current adjuncts armies, whether all at one institution or spread over a geographic region.  I have done the math many times in many ways.  You don't like it, but I have yet to see a calculation from you that contradicts my or anyone else's calculations while using reasonable approximations.

3) While you often concede important points, you then immediately ignore them in any resulting analysis.  Most recently in this category are the changes in demographics and for what students have already voted with their feet over the past decades.  We middle-aged engineers, nurses, K-12 teachers, business folks, and other community leaders/decision makers/regular voters aren't going away simply because you've decided we don't matter.  Our direct experiences will always count strongest for our decisions on what gets funded and what is important enough for our taxes, charitable donations, and advice to younger folks.

The majority of college students who start part-time or the majority of students who go online or within 50 miles of home aren't going away because you refuse to grant them typical student status.

The rise in AP credit, dual enrollment credit, transfer credit from cheaper schools, and similar means to cheaply and efficiently meet general education requirements at schools is another big factor in why the liberal arts faculty jobs that maybe could have been consolidated 20 years ago are just plain going to go away.  Those jobs going away will be accelerated under the current conditions with fewer students expected to return/enroll in college in the fall as the need and budget dictates.  The linked article on presidential decisions indicates a poor outlook for the contingent faculty jobs that serve general education.

Turning back to student demand, the students who want to return to school to learn a new profession and go online due to personal circumstances will very likely choose an institution with a great national reputation through putting resources into online over a more local, homegrown version with fewer options and almost no support.  Many of those who are being told they should have made better educational choices are signing up for those national online programs right now or signing up for the welding certificate as soon as the local vo-tec institute reopens.

The number of people going to college was already on the downward slide.  This semester's experience is not going to help institutions whose primary best selling point was the community together on the campus.  Many of those students won't be coming back in the fall, even if the college is still open for that term.  The discussion in some parts of high ed circles is how few of the students who were already in precarious positions will return to any college in the fall as their life just fell apart. 

People with no money, a precarious living situation that has minimal internet access, and wondering about their next meal are not signing up for college classes anywhere; instead, they are hoping that pooling enough kith and kin resources will let them literally physically live through the summer instead of starving to literal death.

People who have well-meaning family members say, "I told you to ...", at this particular truly unusual moment in modern world history generally come from sufficient resources that those individuals will be fine, albeit with a heavy dollop of advice while they are fed and sheltered and may take a skills-enhancing class or three online as required by the individuals paying the bills. 

None of those folks are going to be working on a liberal arts degree if they end up going the degree route; they will be in the certificate programs that lead to jobs or resuming majors that directly lead to jobs.  From the first-person stories in many media outlets, the people who are really bad off as their in-person jobs were eliminated/furloughed/cut for now either already have a college degree (possibly a master's degree in the humanities) or come from a social class where few of their kith and kin have any other type of job and therefore would never get the "I told you to..." warning.

The discussion in many places was already pretty loud about how college was not the right choice for many people straight out of high school based on outcomes.  Even college graduates aren't all that safe with the 40% of them in jobs that don't require college degrees.  The discussion is deafening in some circles about how now is the perfect time to do something else while college attendance is up in the air any way and most institutions aren't providing the education for which one will pay good money.  Again, the prospective students who want good online education will choose a different institution now instead of the one that scrambled to finish the semester doing something to continue already-in-progress courses.

4) Since we're being personal, Wahoo, I will also point out that nearly all your goals involve preserving/creating/enhancing jobs for specific categories of faculty.  I am impressed at how hard you work to avoid the realization that you aren't at all working on preserving higher ed for the students based on their wants and what is needed for those wants. You are always focused on the faculty jobs aspect while asserting that having particular faculty jobs will help the students. 

That would be more credible if you showed any awareness of what the real, live, currently enrolled students and could-have-been-enrolled students have opted for doing based on their observable actions. 

That would be somewhat credible if you hadn't shared so much over the years leading to the conclusion that your life has been good enough largely because your spouse has a bill-paying good job and you've found something to do as the trailing spouse contributing something to the household.  The efforts to create more jobs like your current one because you've been more precarious are meaningful to you, but ignore all the other factors in higher education, including what large identifiable groups of people want that the rest of the community agrees we want done. 

5) I haven't said it enough recently, but one huge looming problem that just got worse as the US has to decide what is essential and what is not as well as what can be automated/scaled back and what cannot is that we as a society don't need all adults in the workforce who want/need to work to work.  https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/11/hipsters_on_food_stamps.html is brutally cruel about the situation in a three-part post, but the author isn't wrong.

As we discuss what the government should do for the citizens, one evolving libertarian case for Universal Basic Income includes the increasingly obvious situation that we, as a society, cannot employ everyone who wants to work doing something they are capable of doing and have the budget be such that those individuals providing at least as much value as they are being paid.  It's far more efficient and humane to just flat out send money individuals can pool together with their kith and kin to live inside and eat regularly instead of trying to figure out how to make it appear that those folks are working for their income.  However, that means accepting that certain individuals are just going to be in the non-working, charity class for most of their lives.  The alternative is much less humane and doesn't account for the luck and other factors that mean anyone could fall below the productive-enough-line through no fault of their own.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on April 08, 2020, 07:38:27 AM
Not that it really matters much, but faculty on the job market (and some academic staff) care about *national* ranking because its a correlate of $ and other factors such as general prestige
(though that can be manipulate to a degree). If a school sinks from 75 to 125, one has to wonder what happened. This happened to a particular SLAC in the Northeast about a decade ago. The major factor leading to this seems to have been a change in president from a prominent politician who had recently gained national recognition (who was both personally wealthy and well connected to the academic philanthropist circuit) to well...a nobody. In any case,  if rankings more or less correlate with bucks, prestige, teaching load, prospective academic employees can find these measures to be somewhat useful.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 08, 2020, 08:52:06 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 08, 2020, 06:53:45 AM
Ah, Wahoo, you keep acting as though I'm proposing something new to be discussed and agreed upon instead of describing what has happened and likely will continue happening.

Most everything in that last dissertation you have posted already.  Ad nauseam.  Ad nauseam.  And again, ad nauseam.  I agree with almost all of it (and why that throws you I do not know).

Perhaps, Polly, you don't understand my very basic stance that we could work to do something about these things that are undermining our higher ed system before it is too late (which it already might be).  I am not alone, even on these forums, in this.

Or no wait...you are way too smart not to get that simple point...you would simply rather argue that I "ignore" you.  That's a lot easier.   

For you the doomsday book is closed.  If I could make an analogy: Polly recognizes that the coronavirus is going to sicken and kill millions and do vast economic damage----therefore we should just accept the coronavirus and its effects; those people who are going to die are going to die (and it's there own fault); no point in looking for a vaccine----it's never going to happen, Wahoo, so quit ignoring reality.

In the meantime, let's ignore any signs that things can change, such as hiring practices or schools realigning themselves to face new realities.

That's about it except when we get these little odd tangents such as:

Quote from: polly_mer on April 08, 2020, 06:53:45 AM
We middle-aged engineers, nurses, K-12 teachers, business folks, and other community leaders/decision makers/regular voters aren't going away simply because you've decided we don't matter.  Our direct experiences will always count strongest for our decisions on what gets funded and what is important enough for our taxes, charitable donations, and advice to younger folks.

The majority of college students who start part-time or the majority of students who go online or within 50 miles of home aren't going away because you refuse to grant them typical student status.

WTF?! When did I decide anybody, particularly voters, "didn't matter"?  Is this a counter-jibe to my "you can't figure out how to deny that there is work for lib arts types and therefore you make us disappear" comment?

Probably is, isn't it?

What I've said is that these "middle-aged engineers, nurses, K-12 teachers, business folks, and other community leaders/decision makers/regular voters" actually DO care about colleges and funding.  We simply have gotten to the point where we are all frustrated by the costs associated with college. 

And we take college for granted.

We will see if that attitude changes as we begin to shed our schools and little towns, like that one is SW Wisconsin, begin to feel the impacts, economic and otherwise.

There's a class thing going on with you, Polly.  You are somehow resentful and defensive about education.

The effect of the virus is unprecedented.  We will see what happens. 

And the times I have disagreed...or no, added perspective to your comments I generally use your own sources.  You ignore when I post sources.

For instance, I saw you do the math on one tiny, failing college, but I remembered a certain posting that goes all the way back to our first encounter (you were quite rude, my dear!) and for some reason, even though it goes back to 2012, you reposted it.  I am not good at math, so perhaps someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I calculated the FT jobs which could have been generated in 2010 if each of these classes taught by contingent faculty were consolidated into 4/4 lectureships. The point, BTW, is simply to illustrate how much work there is out there for FT faculty of some stripe, and so even if I have thought through my numbers incorrectly, the simple fact remains.

From the illustrious Pollymere: the very incomplete numbers based on self-reporting by the Coalition on the Academic Workforce.

Quote
CAW report, page 8
http://www.academicworkforce.org/CAW_portrait_2012.pdf

Respondents in this category were directed to a survey path that invited them to provide information about up to six credit-bearing courses they were teaching in the fall 2010 term
Part-time faculty respondents reported at least some information for a total of 19,615 courses.

Respondents reported teaching courses at a range of Carnegie institutional types (table 5). Of the 19,615 individual courses reported on by part-time faculty respondents, the institutional type could be determined for 18,449; this number serves as the basis for the following breakdown:
◆ 7,111 courses (38.5%) were taught at Carnegie associate's institutions
•   444 FT jobs to cover these courses in Fall 2010
◆ 1,267 courses (6.9%) were taught at Carnegie baccalaureate institutions
•   317 FT jobs to cover these courses in Fall 2010
◆ 5,381 courses (29.2%) were taught at Carnegie master's institutions
•   1,345 FT jobs to cover these courses in Fall 2010
◆ 4,119 courses (22.3%) were taught at Carnegie doctoral and research institutions
•   1,030 FT jobs to cover these courses in Fall 2010
◆ 571 courses (3.1%) were taught at Carnegie special focus institutions
•   143 FT jobs to cover these courses in Fall 2010
Total: 3,279

So please, don't tell me I "ignore" you----I obviously take you very seriously.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: stemer on April 08, 2020, 09:42:41 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 08, 2020, 06:53:45 AM
1) Small colleges with no unique mission, few resources, and no reason for anyone to pick them over other higher ed institutions are closing and will continue to close.  According to one report I linked in the past week, there are 800 of those institutions that have three of the standard red flags.  The handful of institutions who could use the current events as an opportunity would have already had to be well along the progress to change.

Would you be able to repost or PM me the link? Looking for it but unable to find it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 08, 2020, 10:11:46 AM
Quote from: stemer on April 08, 2020, 09:42:41 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 08, 2020, 06:53:45 AM
1) Small colleges with no unique mission, few resources, and no reason for anyone to pick them over other higher ed institutions are closing and will continue to close.  According to one report I linked in the past week, there are 800 of those institutions that have three of the standard red flags.  The handful of institutions who could use the current events as an opportunity would have already had to be well along the progress to change.

Would you be able to repost or PM me the link? Looking for it but unable to find it.

Polly posted all these on page 37 of this thread.

This is her link.  Note the title of the article.  Read the entire article.

https://hechingerreport.org/as-small-private-colleges-keep-closing-some-are-fighting-back/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pgher on April 08, 2020, 10:21:22 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 08, 2020, 07:38:27 AM
Not that it really matters much, but faculty on the job market (and some academic staff) care about *national* ranking because its a correlate of $ and other factors such as general prestige
(though that can be manipulate to a degree). If a school sinks from 75 to 125, one has to wonder what happened. This happened to a particular SLAC in the Northeast about a decade ago. The major factor leading to this seems to have been a change in president from a prominent politician who had recently gained national recognition (who was both personally wealthy and well connected to the academic philanthropist circuit) to well...a nobody. In any case,  if rankings more or less correlate with bucks, prestige, teaching load, prospective academic employees can find these measures to be somewhat useful.

The thing is, once you get past the top 25, and certainly past the top 50, a very small change in various numbers can make a huge difference in ranking. The scores get pretty close together. I've seen my institution go up and down a dozen spots or so for no real reason.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 08, 2020, 10:22:06 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 08, 2020, 08:52:06 AM

And we take college for granted.

We will see if that attitude changes as we begin to shed our schools and little towns, like that one is SW Wisconsin, begin to feel the impacts, economic and otherwise.


I asked this a while back and you never responded:
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 04, 2020, 06:08:48 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 03, 2020, 06:05:10 PM

I would like to see America use its massive wealth to voluntarily save as many of our colleges as possible.  On this I have been pretty clear. We take higher ed for granted.  Someday we will regret that.


What does that even mean???? Until enrollment drops by 20%? 50%? 90%? Is there any objective criterion or set of criteria that you would accept to determine when it's time to pull the plug? Everything I've seen from you suggests there's never a time when you're not going to blame "government" or someone else for the failure of an institution to attract enough students to make it viable.

This is what I find frustrating. You say "as many as possible" should be saved, but refuse to specify if there is ever some point at which you would consider a place beyond saving. (And that also avoids the question of what responsibility these institutions have to respond to the needs of their communities. Or do they get to say "because we've always done it that way; give us money!" till the cows come home.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 08, 2020, 11:24:02 AM
Quote from: pgher on April 08, 2020, 10:21:22 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 08, 2020, 07:38:27 AM
Not that it really matters much, but faculty on the job market (and some academic staff) care about *national* ranking because its a correlate of $ and other factors such as general prestige
(though that can be manipulate to a degree). If a school sinks from 75 to 125, one has to wonder what happened. This happened to a particular SLAC in the Northeast about a decade ago. The major factor leading to this seems to have been a change in president from a prominent politician who had recently gained national recognition (who was both personally wealthy and well connected to the academic philanthropist circuit) to well...a nobody. In any case,  if rankings more or less correlate with bucks, prestige, teaching load, prospective academic employees can find these measures to be somewhat useful.

The thing is, once you get past the top 25, and certainly past the top 50, a very small change in various numbers can make a huge difference in ranking. The scores get pretty close together. I've seen my institution go up and down a dozen spots or so for no real reason.

Some of the ranking services also change their criteria a little bit from time to time. That also helps move the rankings around a bit. It would be dull if there were no changes when they announce their annual rankings. Dull does not sell.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on April 08, 2020, 11:45:47 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 08, 2020, 04:29:26 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 01:05:06 PM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 07, 2020, 11:53:43 AM

Faculty should be putting together ideas to improve what they're doing now and to add new things employers want.

Amen, brother.

I'm honestly confused here. Where is the line between "add new things employers want" and "job training"?

I think of job training as training for a specific task: write a web app in Javascript, do someone's taxes, and that sort of thing. When I talk with employers, they want something a little broader. They'll often start their response with something like, "I don't care about the specifics, but I want to see some evidence that they can do [...]" where [...] is not a mechanical task. It might be "create and deliver a good talk for our client". That might lead to the creation of a certificate in business communication that students can add to their CV. Any department could be involved in that. The ability to explain the works of Shakespeare in a ten minute presentation to a general audience is a skill that could carry over to many other areas, but I don't view it as job training. The successful colleges are the ones that will recognize the potential for these things and find a way to do them using the resources they currently have. It's not as easy as adding a Javascript course to the books.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 08, 2020, 12:01:43 PM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 08, 2020, 11:45:47 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 08, 2020, 04:29:26 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 01:05:06 PM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 07, 2020, 11:53:43 AM

Faculty should be putting together ideas to improve what they're doing now and to add new things employers want.

Amen, brother.

I'm honestly confused here. Where is the line between "add new things employers want" and "job training"?

I think of job training as training for a specific task: write a web app in Javascript, do someone's taxes, and that sort of thing. When I talk with employers, they want something a little broader. They'll often start their response with something like, "I don't care about the specifics, but I want to see some evidence that they can do [...]" where [...] is not a mechanical task. It might be "create and deliver a good talk for our client". That might lead to the creation of a certificate in business communication that students can add to their CV. Any department could be involved in that. The ability to explain the works of Shakespeare in a ten minute presentation to a general audience is a skill that could carry over to many other areas, but I don't view it as job training. The successful colleges are the ones that will recognize the potential for these things and find a way to do them using the resources they currently have. It's not as easy as adding a Javascript course to the books.

But the point is, that to add something that employers want, it requires taking away something they don't care about. What could be taken out in order to fit in what the employers want?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on April 08, 2020, 02:50:29 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 08, 2020, 12:01:43 PM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 08, 2020, 11:45:47 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 08, 2020, 04:29:26 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2020, 01:05:06 PM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 07, 2020, 11:53:43 AM

Faculty should be putting together ideas to improve what they're doing now and to add new things employers want.

Amen, brother.

I'm honestly confused here. Where is the line between "add new things employers want" and "job training"?

I think of job training as training for a specific task: write a web app in Javascript, do someone's taxes, and that sort of thing. When I talk with employers, they want something a little broader. They'll often start their response with something like, "I don't care about the specifics, but I want to see some evidence that they can do [...]" where [...] is not a mechanical task. It might be "create and deliver a good talk for our client". That might lead to the creation of a certificate in business communication that students can add to their CV. Any department could be involved in that. The ability to explain the works of Shakespeare in a ten minute presentation to a general audience is a skill that could carry over to many other areas, but I don't view it as job training. The successful colleges are the ones that will recognize the potential for these things and find a way to do them using the resources they currently have. It's not as easy as adding a Javascript course to the books.

But the point is, that to add something that employers want, it requires taking away something they don't care about. What could be taken out in order to fit in what the employers want?

My university adds new things all the time. No need to remove anything. The primary goal is to increase enrollment, either from new students that like the new offering, or existing students hoping to make themselves look better to employers. In some cases you can do that by repackaging the courses you already offer or by making minor changes to those courses.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on April 08, 2020, 03:03:01 PM
I've heard it said that Deans can add, but not subtract.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 08, 2020, 05:12:02 PM
Looks like deposits are running about what they were a few years ago, when we missed our target for the incoming class by more than ten percent.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on April 08, 2020, 07:47:22 PM
Quote from: spork on April 08, 2020, 05:12:02 PM
Looks like deposits are running about what they were a few years ago, when we missed our target for the incoming class by more than ten percent.

True, but you can't compare this year to any prior year. No one knows if we will be face to face in the fall. Most schools have extended their deposit deadlines (which will throw off comparisons to prior years right there), and even still, parents want to know what product they are getting in the fall before they send in that deposit. It stinks that things are so uncertain, but I don't think you can read too much into where deposits are today relative to any other period.  Everything could change if we find a vaccine and classes are face to face in the fall. Another wild card is how well the economy starts back up. Will parents even be in a position to afford college if they are still unemployed? No one knows what September will bring, let alone what the end of the May will bring. I agree that where deposits stand today are troubling for many institutions if current trends persist.

cue Monty Python's "Always look on the bright side of life..."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: quasihumanist on April 08, 2020, 09:11:44 PM
My worst case assumptions include both a one-semester furlough for all faculty next year and 50% inflation (well - 100% on food and some consumer goods but 0% on most other things) with no corresponding raises.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on April 08, 2020, 09:44:05 PM
A bit of a different take.  I know there are a few Canadians and Euro types on these fora so will ask them to chime in if I am wrong here.

First - We got into this mess in the US because higher education is largely in private hands. A hundred and fifty years ago, every town big enough to need 2 hookers opened up a college - whether for the religious formation of the clients of said hookers or as a finishing school for the sons and later daughters of the local
squire-archy.  Nebraska has 20+ 4 year schools for a population of under 2 million people.  On the other hand, Montreal Canada is roughly the same size and has 2 English Universities, 2 French Universities and a few satellite campuses or miscellaneous schools affiliated with another institution. 

Higher education in the US is massively over-built and, as Polly has repeatedly pointed out, far too many schools are too small, too rural and too undistinguished to be attractive to enough students to be viable.  Placing higher education mostly in private hands allowed for the number of schools having a much greater capacity than there are students willing to put bums in seats.  A Malthusian growth model if ever there was.

In many other countries, higher education is almost entirely a public venture, governments did not approve a college in every 2 hooker town and the resulting schools are much more likely to weather the demographic storm of a shrinking 18-22 year old cohort or the public's growing mistrust of higher ed.

Second point -- the American mania for "getting into a good college".  We may not like streaming cohorts of students according to perceived ability, but what we see in the US is an awful lot of kids who are in college mostly because they don't know where else to be. 

Proper, well-regulated internships, apprenticeships and similar on the job training coupled with the necessary coursework to become a pharmacy front-end manager, an insurance agent, a diesel mechanic, a tax preparer or head of accounts payable would suit a lot of students better than a major in something they don't care about, accompanied by 24 credits of general electives they truly did not care about. 

Third - the education in private hands matter above meant there was very little to prevent any college that was looking for a bit of prestige from opening up a PhD program.  Their grads could teach all the required make work for humanities PhDs general electives that every student has to take.  My own uni long offered EdDs for prospective principals and super-duperintendents, but now we also offer a PhD of no particular value as far as I can tell.  It's like the college building boom of the past - there's not much to stop anybody from building colleges or cranking out PhDs.

No disrespect meant to you Wahoo, but I read your posts as being aware of all the doom and gloom you get from Polly but still devoutly wishing there was some way to not have it all be true.  If you have proposed solutions for the mess we are in, I have missed them in your posts.  I believe you understand the issues as well as anybody, but are addressing them mostly with wishful thinking that "we" will suddenly........

Any rational use of resources in a well run public system would think seriously about shuttering or merging hundreds if not thousands of schools that are struggling along with no prospects of ever doing any better.  Any rational use of resources in a well run public system would think seriously about closing (or at least slashing the size of)  PhD programs who cannot demonstrate their graduates won't die on the adjunct death march.

But all that would require -- you know -- big gubm'nt or even worse socialism!!!! and America ain't ready for that.  So the logic of the marketplace will continue.  Schools will struggle until enough of them close so that the capacity of the system is commensurate with the necessary resources.  And PhDs will continue to be produced, will continue to struggle to find real academic careers until the market convinces enough bright young undergrads that a couple of Microsoft certifications in addition to their BA in history or political science is a better career choice than the PhD.



Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 08, 2020, 10:23:05 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on April 08, 2020, 09:44:05 PM
No disrespect meant to you Wahoo, but I read your posts as being aware of all the doom and gloom you get from Polly but still devoutly wishing there was some way to not have it all be true.  If you have proposed solutions for the mess we are in, I have missed them in your posts.  I believe you understand the issues as well as anybody, but are addressing them mostly with wishful thinking that "we" will suddenly........

I am either not stating my simple suggestions very well or forumites are simply so gloomy they are unable to listen. 

There is no "suddenly" about it.  I do not know how many times I have posted that revival would be long process if it is to happen at all.   No suddenly.  No suddenly.  No suddenly. Geeze.

Nor is there "wishful thinking"---and I take no offense, but this is what I mean when I say that we are simply unable to listen, probably because we are so caught up in gloom and doom.

My suggestions have been pretty simple...

*Publicize the plight of colleges.  We don't need every single American.  We need enough. There are billions of donation dollars siphoned into millions of projects.  I cannot figure out why we would resist making this a loud national cause (after the plague is over, obviously).  Write congress. Letters to the editor.  Start a blog.  Post Facebook.  Whatever. 

The adjunct army has received a fair amount of press in the last five years (one of the things that people here strangely deny even though the proof is a Google search away---which is more of this strangely defeatist attitude) and the result is a slow changing of the tide: adjunct jobs are falling, full-time jobs are rising.  The plague may reverse this, but it is an example of how people react when education becomes news.

We MAY have pumped out too many PhDs----but gee whiz, the work is there for most of them.  It really is.  Just look at the simple numbers.  We have the work, we just want to parcel it out.  So simple.  Argh.

I worked in a couple of industries before going back to grad school.  Academia is the only one I am aware of that does not aggressively fight to stay alive when things turn grim.  I suspect it is the individualistic nature of our work, but I don't know. 

* Get our professional organizations involved.  Lobby.

* Fight to bring back state support.  See above.

* Write journalism (what I do).  Get the message out there. 

* Do a study of the economic impact of colleges, even the tiny ones.  Colleges create micro-economic-and- cultural environments.  Even a small college may employ 1,000 to 5,000 people depending on the size of the school, from faculty to the food service workers to vendors to security guards. In small communities, the college may be what keeps it from truly being a two hooker town. Survey the local landlords, fast-food joints, and supermarkets.  Okay to shrug off the loss of 1,000 jobs during boom-time, another to shrug off 1,000 jobs during a recession which we may be heading into.

* Research.  Polly's links are very sobering.  Almost always they contain ideas and strategies to reverse the trend.  Not all of them will be successful, of course, which is simply part of the game.

* Hit up alumni.  We've seen that alumni will mobilize.

* Acknowledge the things you've noted above and that Polly is obsessed with.  Acknowledge that there are things we can do OVER THE LONG TERM to save as many schools as we can.

* Or give up.  I don't work for a college in dire straights.  My job is secure, at least for the time being.  I am relatively cheap for what they get from me.  I frequently consider leaving academia anyway---so if my job goes I would be okay (doesn't pay that great).

These are just suggestions.  I don't have as much experience as many of you.  Maybe someone knows better.

My idea here on the Fora is that we ALSO talk about what could be done. 

Come up with ideas.  Make suggestions.  Talk to each other.  Administrators say something.

Or give up.  We may not care enough to make a difference.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 09, 2020, 05:06:18 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on April 08, 2020, 07:47:22 PM
Quote from: spork on April 08, 2020, 05:12:02 PM
Looks like deposits are running about what they were a few years ago, when we missed our target for the incoming class by more than ten percent.

True, but you can't compare this year to any prior year.

[. . .]

Actually you can. And should. Because too many higher ed institutions ignore long-term trends by engaging in optimism bias and assuming "bad years" are one-off outliers. You might be surprised at the number of colleges and universities in the USA that haven't returned to pre-2008 recession enrollment levels.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 09, 2020, 05:51:18 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 08, 2020, 10:23:05 PM

* Do a study of the economic impact of colleges, even the tiny ones.  Colleges create micro-economic-and- cultural environments.  Even a small college may employ 1,000 to 5,000 people depending on the size of the school, from faculty to the food service workers to vendors to security guards. In small communities, the college may be what keeps it from truly being a two hooker town. Survey the local landlords, fast-food joints, and supermarkets.  Okay to shrug off the loss of 1,000 jobs during boom-time, another to shrug off 1,000 jobs during a recession which we may be heading into.


Suppose this town bends over backwards to keep this place afloat, desptie declining enrollment, etc. And the next town supports theirs, and so on. Every place teeters on the brink, and requires ongoing infusions of cash to survive. On the other hand, if this one closes, then that may by itself help out the neighbouring towns as students redistribute. Some people may find jobs there as well.

Propping up places regardless of how precarious they are prevents those resources from being used to provide more meaningful support to the places that could potentially thrive if they had the means to make some changes that the money would allow.

"As many as possible" is a useless metric, because it avoids any concrete recognition of what responsibility the institution has to work within its means and adapt to the world in which it exists.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on April 09, 2020, 06:01:39 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on April 08, 2020, 09:44:05 PM
A bit of a different take.  I know there are a few Canadians and Euro types on these fora so will ask them to chime in if I am wrong here.

First - We got into this mess in the US because higher education is largely in private hands. A hundred and fifty years ago, every town big enough to need 2 hookers opened up a college - whether for the religious formation of the clients of said hookers or as a finishing school for the sons and later daughters of the local
squire-archy.  Nebraska has 20+ 4 year schools for a population of under 2 million people.  On the other hand, Montreal Canada is roughly the same size and has 2 English Universities, 2 French Universities and a few satellite campuses or miscellaneous schools affiliated with another institution. 

Higher education in the US is massively over-built and, as Polly has repeatedly pointed out, far too many schools are too small, too rural and too undistinguished to be attractive to enough students to be viable.  Placing higher education mostly in private hands allowed for the number of schools having a much greater capacity than there are students willing to put bums in seats.  A Malthusian growth model if ever there was.

In many other countries, higher education is almost entirely a public venture, governments did not approve a college in every 2 hooker town and the resulting schools are much more likely to weather the demographic storm of a shrinking 18-22 year old cohort or the public's growing mistrust of higher ed.

Second point -- the American mania for "getting into a good college".  We may not like streaming cohorts of students according to perceived ability, but what we see in the US is an awful lot of kids who are in college mostly because they don't know where else to be. 

Proper, well-regulated internships, apprenticeships and similar on the job training coupled with the necessary coursework to become a pharmacy front-end manager, an insurance agent, a diesel mechanic, a tax preparer or head of accounts payable would suit a lot of students better than a major in something they don't care about, accompanied by 24 credits of general electives they truly did not care about. 

Third - the education in private hands matter above meant there was very little to prevent any college that was looking for a bit of prestige from opening up a PhD program.  Their grads could teach all the required make work for humanities PhDs general electives that every student has to take.  My own uni long offered EdDs for prospective principals and super-duperintendents, but now we also offer a PhD of no particular value as far as I can tell.  It's like the college building boom of the past - there's not much to stop anybody from building colleges or cranking out PhDs.

No disrespect meant to you Wahoo, but I read your posts as being aware of all the doom and gloom you get from Polly but still devoutly wishing there was some way to not have it all be true.  If you have proposed solutions for the mess we are in, I have missed them in your posts.  I believe you understand the issues as well as anybody, but are addressing them mostly with wishful thinking that "we" will suddenly........

Any rational use of resources in a well run public system would think seriously about shuttering or merging hundreds if not thousands of schools that are struggling along with no prospects of ever doing any better.  Any rational use of resources in a well run public system would think seriously about closing (or at least slashing the size of)  PhD programs who cannot demonstrate their graduates won't die on the adjunct death march.

But all that would require -- you know -- big gubm'nt or even worse socialism!!!! and America ain't ready for that.  So the logic of the marketplace will continue.  Schools will struggle until enough of them close so that the capacity of the system is commensurate with the necessary resources.  And PhDs will continue to be produced, will continue to struggle to find real academic careers until the market convinces enough bright young undergrads that a couple of Microsoft certifications in addition to their BA in history or political science is a better career choice than the PhD.

Not chiming in on your larger argument, but a clarification: Montreal does have only 4 universities. But it also has a few dozen CEGEP's -- roughly the equivalent of grade 12 and a year of college; sort of equivalent to a Junior College / Community College, but not really. The whole system in Quebec is very different from secondary and collegiate systems in the rest of Canada and the United States. In principle, it does some of what you (and Polly) have been lobbying for. In practice, it is cash-strapped, politically volatile, and part of a system that taxes Quebec citizens at a high rate. It is a unique product of the highly idiosyncratic history of Quebec, and an unlikely model for educational reform in any other place.

This is a shift to systems, and away from colleges in distress. I'm happy to share what I know on another thread.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 09, 2020, 07:05:37 AM
Wahoo's list of actions is a great focus for thinking about what can improve the situation.

Some turnover of colleges is normal, and we should not take that normal and healthy phenomenon as a sign that higher education overall is in trouble. Colleges may be non-profit businesses, even publicly owned businesses. As non-profits, they measure success in societal impact rather than profit. But they are still businesses that have to manage revenue, expenses, investments and loans to remain a going concern. Being businesses, they have to respond to changing demand for their product, competition from newer products, and the economic climate. They will also have widely varying quality of management. Some will go out of business every year. New ones will start.

Research into what is normal turnover and what is crisis is important. If the college equivalent of videotape rental is falling to the college equivalent of video streaming services, then it is normal tech advancement. Painful for the obsolete, but stopping it would be worse for society. If poorly managed colleges are failing and similar well-managed colleges are picking up their students, then the system is working well. The research is difficult because many of the primary sources are ignorant of their situation or concealing problems as best they can.

Building public support is extremely important. We must continuously convey the value of our institutions to the local community, to state legislators and officials (and voters!), to Federal legislators and officials. That communication should ideally be from everyone at the institution in some way. And it should be a steady drumbeat so that the value is ingrained in the general psyche. Obviously, the opposite message is being drummed in now.

I'm skeptical about using  dire straits as the main talking point. The value is a better one. America loves a winner, so announcing that you are not a winner is not a long-term support winner. America also likes to root for the underdog, and likes to come to the rescue. But those are short-term passions.

Alumni can be great. But only at a few places. If a few can get together over lunch and agree to chip in a million dollars each, then they have influence. If they are in the governor's office or on the board of major foundations and corporations, then they have influence. I have not seen other kinds of alumni be a major contributor to saving a school.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on April 09, 2020, 07:06:50 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on April 08, 2020, 09:44:05 PM
First - We got into this mess in the US because higher education is largely in private hands. A hundred and fifty years ago, every town big enough to need 2 hookers opened up a college - whether for the religious formation of the clients of said hookers or as a finishing school for the sons and later daughters of the local
squire-archy.  Nebraska has 20+ 4 year schools for a population of under 2 million people.  On the other hand, Montreal Canada is roughly the same size and has 2 English Universities, 2 French Universities and a few satellite campuses or miscellaneous schools affiliated with another institution. 

What do you mean by "largely in private hands"? 85% of secondary education is public, and most of the private is nonprofit.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 09, 2020, 07:10:27 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 09, 2020, 07:06:50 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on April 08, 2020, 09:44:05 PM
First - We got into this mess in the US because higher education is largely in private hands. A hundred and fifty years ago, every town big enough to need 2 hookers opened up a college - whether for the religious formation of the clients of said hookers or as a finishing school for the sons and later daughters of the local
squire-archy.  Nebraska has 20+ 4 year schools for a population of under 2 million people.  On the other hand, Montreal Canada is roughly the same size and has 2 English Universities, 2 French Universities and a few satellite campuses or miscellaneous schools affiliated with another institution. 

What do you mean by "largely in private hands"? 85% of secondary education is public, and most of the private is nonprofit.

Are you counting students or are you counting institutions?  The non-profit dinky colleges outnumber the public universities in the US.  However, it's true that all the dinky colleges currently enroll a small percentage of the overall US college students.

The public 2-year sector (community colleges) has the largest enrollment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 09, 2020, 07:31:36 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on April 09, 2020, 06:01:39 AM

Not chiming in on your larger argument, but a clarification: Montreal does have only 4 universities. But it also has a few dozen CEGEP's -- roughly the equivalent of grade 12 and a year of college; sort of equivalent to a Junior College / Community College, but not really. The whole system in Quebec is very different from secondary and collegiate systems in the rest of Canada and the United States. In principle, it does some of what you (and Polly) have been lobbying for. In practice, it is cash-strapped, politically volatile, and part of a system that taxes Quebec citizens at a high rate. It is a unique product of the highly idiosyncratic history of Quebec, and an unlikely model for educational reform in any other place.


Part of the cash problem with the system in Quebec is the decades-long tuition freeze which is now untouchable. Ironically, Quebec has one of the lowest post-secondary participation rates in the country.
(Indeed, Quebec is different from the rest of Canada.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 09, 2020, 07:53:37 AM
Quote from: spork on April 09, 2020, 05:06:18 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on April 08, 2020, 07:47:22 PM
Quote from: spork on April 08, 2020, 05:12:02 PM
Looks like deposits are running about what they were a few years ago, when we missed our target for the incoming class by more than ten percent.

True, but you can't compare this year to any prior year.

[. . .]

Actually you can. And should. Because too many higher ed institutions ignore long-term trends by engaging in optimism bias and assuming "bad years" are one-off outliers. You might be surprised at the number of colleges and universities in the USA that haven't returned to pre-2008 recession enrollment levels.

Bradley University is planning for a 25-35% drop in revenue next year:

https://www.pjstar.com/news/20200406/bradley-university-weighing-40m-in-cuts-after-coronavirus-effect-on-budget (https://www.pjstar.com/news/20200406/bradley-university-weighing-40m-in-cuts-after-coronavirus-effect-on-budget)

It already had an $8 million deficit for the current fiscal year and has so far had to refund an additional $5 million due to the pandemic.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 09, 2020, 08:16:14 AM
I suppose I am a nerd who thinks of education as much more than a business or job-training model. 

I think of healthy education as more like the church or healthcare or something: essential for a civilized society. 

Sure, there is an economic benefit to a college degree, obviously, and one can point to university research yadda yadda, but more importantly it is one of the prime engines of culture. 

We take college for granted and will let a segment of it collapse with sad but resolute shrug.  Being a nerd, I don't understand this.  America has a history of grass-roots activism as a catalyst for huge change.

We definitely need to look at other countries and what they do, but I also look at, say, Norway and think we are just not the same kind of animal.   

At least Polly and I can agree that it is tiresome to say the same things over and over.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 09, 2020, 08:25:00 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 09, 2020, 08:16:14 AM
I suppose I am a nerd who thinks of education as much more than a business or job-training model. 

I think of healthy education as more like the church or healthcare or something: essential for a civilized society. 


And even countries with universal healthcare don't support every treatment for every condition under the sun - BECAUSE RESOURCES ARE NOT INFINITE, EVEN FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO DO ALL THE GOOD THINGS!!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 09, 2020, 08:27:56 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 09, 2020, 08:25:00 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 09, 2020, 08:16:14 AM
I suppose I am a nerd who thinks of education as much more than a business or job-training model. 

I think of healthy education as more like the church or healthcare or something: essential for a civilized society. 


And even countries with universal healthcare don't support every treatment for every condition under the sun - BECAUSE RESOURCES ARE NOT INFINITE, EVEN FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO DO ALL THE GOOD THINGS!!

We don't need nor would we be asking for infinite resources.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 09, 2020, 08:47:28 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 09, 2020, 08:16:14 AM
I suppose I am a nerd who thinks of education as much more than a business or job-training model. 

I think of healthy education as more like the church or healthcare or something: essential for a civilized society. 


Education is indeed essential for a civilized society.

The National Endowment for the Arts makes the same argument. What do you think of their tag line? "Because a great nation deserves great art."

That tag line assumes that we agree and insist that this is a great nation. Good positive reinforcement. It also declares that we deserve this. It is a reward. We have it coming.

Given how strongly many legislators disagree with the logic, the fact that the NEA survives at all is testimony to its effectiveness.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 09, 2020, 10:12:31 AM
Quote from: spork on April 09, 2020, 07:53:37 AM
Quote from: spork on April 09, 2020, 05:06:18 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on April 08, 2020, 07:47:22 PM
Quote from: spork on April 08, 2020, 05:12:02 PM
Looks like deposits are running about what they were a few years ago, when we missed our target for the incoming class by more than ten percent.

True, but you can't compare this year to any prior year.

[. . .]

Actually you can. And should. Because too many higher ed institutions ignore long-term trends by engaging in optimism bias and assuming "bad years" are one-off outliers. You might be surprised at the number of colleges and universities in the USA that haven't returned to pre-2008 recession enrollment levels.

Bradley University is planning for a 25-35% drop in revenue next year:

https://www.pjstar.com/news/20200406/bradley-university-weighing-40m-in-cuts-after-coronavirus-effect-on-budget (https://www.pjstar.com/news/20200406/bradley-university-weighing-40m-in-cuts-after-coronavirus-effect-on-budget)

It already had an $8 million deficit for the current fiscal year and has so far had to refund an additional $5 million due to the pandemic.

NECHE regarding Pine Manor College (https://www.neche.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Joint-Statement-NECHE-PMC-DHE-4.6.2020.pdf): "Owing to the impact of the coronavirus (COVID-19), the College's financial situation has become uncertain, such that it cannot confirm that it can sustain full operations at the current levels beyond the current academic year."

From FY 2009 through FY 2018, Pine Manor has run deficits in seven out of ten years. Its undergraduate FTE fell by 17 percent between 2006-07 and 2017-18. This Boston Globe article (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/04/06/metro/amid-coronavirus-pine-manor-colleges-future-uncertain/) cites current enrollment, which may not be FTE, as 360, which is a decline of 29 percent.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 09, 2020, 12:50:26 PM
Quote from: spork on April 09, 2020, 10:12:31 AM
Quote from: spork on April 09, 2020, 07:53:37 AM
Quote from: spork on April 09, 2020, 05:06:18 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on April 08, 2020, 07:47:22 PM
Quote from: spork on April 08, 2020, 05:12:02 PM
Looks like deposits are running about what they were a few years ago, when we missed our target for the incoming class by more than ten percent.

True, but you can't compare this year to any prior year.

[. . .]

Actually you can. And should. Because too many higher ed institutions ignore long-term trends by engaging in optimism bias and assuming "bad years" are one-off outliers. You might be surprised at the number of colleges and universities in the USA that haven't returned to pre-2008 recession enrollment levels.

Bradley University is planning for a 25-35% drop in revenue next year:

https://www.pjstar.com/news/20200406/bradley-university-weighing-40m-in-cuts-after-coronavirus-effect-on-budget (https://www.pjstar.com/news/20200406/bradley-university-weighing-40m-in-cuts-after-coronavirus-effect-on-budget)

It already had an $8 million deficit for the current fiscal year and has so far had to refund an additional $5 million due to the pandemic.

NECHE regarding Pine Manor College (https://www.neche.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Joint-Statement-NECHE-PMC-DHE-4.6.2020.pdf): "Owing to the impact of the coronavirus (COVID-19), the College's financial situation has become uncertain, such that it cannot confirm that it can sustain full operations at the current levels beyond the current academic year."

From FY 2009 through FY 2018, Pine Manor has run deficits in seven out of ten years. Its undergraduate FTE fell by 17 percent between 2006-07 and 2017-18. This Boston Globe article (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/04/06/metro/amid-coronavirus-pine-manor-colleges-future-uncertain/) cites current enrollment, which may not be FTE, as 360, which is a decline of 29 percent.

I recall on the old "Dire Financial Straits" thread seeing that Pine Manor was in bad trouble a year or two ago.  It wouldn't be at all surprising if the current crisis proved too much for it.  At least they're being honest about it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 09, 2020, 04:41:04 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 06, 2020, 06:13:56 AM
However, that's one concrete example of the fallacy of asserting that only a liberal arts education or a good general education with a healthy dollop of humanities for everyone is doing something fabulous to prepare people for a changing life after college.

Engineering, nursing, and K-12 teaching are professional programs that usually only check the box on general education and often have almost no free electives.

Anybody see the physics student from Hendrix College discuss "liberal arts" on College Jeopardy tonight?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: risenanew on April 09, 2020, 07:26:03 PM
I'm sorry if this is a little off-topic but I do have a general question about closing colleges.

Has there been a recent trend (say, over the last five years) of public community colleges closing? I've read several pages of this thread and it seems as though most closed colleges are private four-years. Have I missed out on closings among two-year colleges?

And if two-year colleges seem less likely to close than four-year colleges, why might that be the case? It is because two-year colleges are more likely to be public than vulnerable four-years, because two-years are more nimble in answer to student needs/demands, or some other reason?

Thanks ahead of time for your help in understanding how likely two-year community colleges are to close... I'm working in a medium-sized (roughly 10,000 students) public two-year community college and am trying to figure out how vulnerable we may be in the future!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on April 09, 2020, 10:28:51 PM
If it's a public two-year college, presumably it is not as vulnerable to a complete loss of funding as a private community college. All the private two-year colleges I know about closed some time ago.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on April 10, 2020, 05:12:01 AM
I'm wondering....horrible cynical alerts ahead...if the issue for the states whose legislatures lodge a majority of semi-philistine anti-education warriors is that CCs fulfill their idea that "OK, maybe people need some post-high-school training to keep 'em off the dole, but two years is enough."

They may view offerings like criminal justice as training for prison wardens, and English as a source for cute little admins, and beyond that, if you need anything so high-falutin' as a 4-year program, you can pay for it yourself.

Sorry. But I fear it may be so...

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 10, 2020, 06:01:56 AM
Quote from: mamselle on April 10, 2020, 05:12:01 AM
I'm wondering....horrible cynical alerts ahead...if the issue for the states whose legislatures lodge a majority of semi-philistine anti-education warriors is that CCs fulfill their idea that "OK, maybe people need some post-high-school training to keep 'em off the dole, but two years is enough."

They may view offerings like criminal justice as training for prison wardens, and English as a source for cute little admins, and beyond that, if you need anything so high-falutin' as a 4-year program, you can pay for it yourself.

Sorry. But I fear it may be so...

M.

I don't worry at all about an outcome that is only logical if one conflates all non-humanities postsecondary education with essentially a welding certificate.  Again, I primarily encounter this mindset among faculty in certain fields where they trying hard to save their jobs by insisting that only a liberal arts education with a heavy dollop of the humanities is a valid postsecondary education.

One reason I expect the general education requirements to go away or be dramatically transformed is how many educated people in specific areas we as a society need that are now 4-year-in-name-only degrees with 130+ credits required.  Cutting out unnecessary-to-the-profession general education requirements will free up more space for internships/co-ops/professional electives.  I am far from alone in having substantial experience trying to both preserve the necessary education for the profession while being frustrated by including checkbox requirements that enforce education that should have been done in K-12 and/or are so clearly just job preservation for faculty in certain fields.

I do expect many more undergraduate humanities programs to be cut as it becomes even more clear how few seats we need nationally.  For example, last year, about 45k English bachelor degrees were awarded and there's no reason to expect that to go up in the coming years.  Consolidating the programs into fewer institutions is a way to continue to meet the student demand while having good programs worth attending.  However, that will very likely mean fewer over all faculty jobs in English.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 10, 2020, 06:11:03 AM
Quote from: risenanew on April 09, 2020, 07:26:03 PM
Thanks ahead of time for your help in understanding how likely two-year community colleges are to close... I'm working in a medium-sized (roughly 10,000 students) public two-year community college and am trying to figure out how vulnerable we may be in the future!

What does the institutional resource situation look like? 

Are you limited to attending one regional conference per year, does the CC sometimes push new enrollment to the next term because the seats are all full, or are you providing your own bucket to catch the rain coming into the classroom?  The last one indicates that one should be looking for a new job now because resources are about to get tighter.

How many other CCs are in your same geographic area? 

I don't see a lot of flat out closures along the lines of "It's April and our last term forever will end July 1".  I would, though, be worried about consolidation within the state system that means a branch campus become a twig becomes a building with administrators who help complete paperwork and turn on the distance ed system at the appropriate times.

What is your balance between programs that require a mostly physical presence and are offered only by your institution within a 2-hr drive and programs that are offered practically everywhere with online being a reasonable thing to do? 

Your auto mechanic courses will probably keep going.  Your general education classes that have no lab work are likely to be slowly transitioned away.  Again, the campus is unlikely to just announce one day that this is the last term, but the slow trickle of courses and programs quietly being reduced is probably going to accelerate this year.

Overall, I don't expect a lot of public community colleges to flat out close.

I do expect their missions to change to be more vo-tech or, in rare cases, expand up to specific bachelor degrees to meet local need.  I can absolutely see RN programs expand to be BSN and to perhaps acquire teaching certificate programs for those who already have a bachelor degree in something.  With the mission change, I can see specific faculty jobs being eliminated as no longer supporting the new mission.  Were I employed by a CC that isn't already in dire financial straits, I would be much more worried about how the mission change will affect my job than the institution itself just flat out closing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 10, 2020, 06:27:22 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 09, 2020, 04:41:04 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 06, 2020, 06:13:56 AM
However, that's one concrete example of the fallacy of asserting that only a liberal arts education or a good general education with a healthy dollop of humanities for everyone is doing something fabulous to prepare people for a changing life after college.

Engineering, nursing, and K-12 teaching are professional programs that usually only check the box on general education and often have almost no free electives.

Anybody see the physics student from Hendrix College discuss "liberal arts" on College Jeopardy tonight?

Physics is a liberal arts field.  That's why he could major in it at Hendrix College. 

I am a member of the physics community and the now-deafening discussion on the education side is how to get students to major in physics, how to preserve the small physics departments at the liberal arts colleges, and how to prevent physics from becoming engineering as changes are made to the curriculum.  There's a parallel worry regarding the lack overall of physics teachers in high school as well as what happens when the "physics teacher" is highly-qualified-according-to-the-state by virtue of having taken three (3) undergraduate classes in physics and passing a very easy test.

Many times, the discussions about the future of physics as a standalone field parallel the discussions I see regarding the humanities.  Physics had under 9k bachelor degrees awarded annually in the US in recent years.  The number awarded to underrepresented minorities is sometimes under 100.

A few years ago, the American Physical Society had a vote on whether to change its name to the American Physics Society.  The vote came back a resounding no because: most of us are doing physics-related research, but do not have physics degrees and aren't housed in physics programs; this is our professional home so don't exclude us based on a word. 

We love physics, but we are not physicists as a primary identity.  A similar idea holds true for those of us who are nerds, value education, and love books, but don't feel a need to cling to the identity of English professor as the only people who have those ideas.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 10, 2020, 07:54:45 AM
Quote from: mamselle on April 10, 2020, 05:12:01 AM
I'm wondering....horrible cynical alerts ahead...if the issue for the states whose legislatures lodge a majority of semi-philistine anti-education warriors is that CCs fulfill their idea that "OK, maybe people need some post-high-school training to keep 'em off the dole, but two years is enough."

They may view offerings like criminal justice as training for prison wardens, and English as a source for cute little admins, and beyond that, if you need anything so high-falutin' as a 4-year program, you can pay for it yourself.

Sorry. But I fear it may be so...

M.

I think that's unnecessarily cynical.  Bachelor's-level college education and post-secondary trade-school education are both entirely legitimate needs for society.  There are those who fail to see the value of the former who nonetheless genuinely understand and care about the latter.  And, whether we like it or not, there are many academically-disinclined members of our society who need the latter much more than the former.  I'm glad that there are legislators who understand that they need support too.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 10, 2020, 08:12:39 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 10, 2020, 06:11:03 AM
Quote from: risenanew on April 09, 2020, 07:26:03 PM
Thanks ahead of time for your help in understanding how likely two-year community colleges are to close... I'm working in a medium-sized (roughly 10,000 students) public two-year community college and am trying to figure out how vulnerable we may be in the future!

What does the institutional resource situation look like? 

Are you limited to attending one regional conference per year, does the CC sometimes push new enrollment to the next term because the seats are all full, or are you providing your own bucket to catch the rain coming into the classroom?  The last one indicates that one should be looking for a new job now because resources are about to get tighter.

How many other CCs are in your same geographic area? 

I don't see a lot of flat out closures along the lines of "It's April and our last term forever will end July 1".  I would, though, be worried about consolidation within the state system that means a branch campus become a twig becomes a building with administrators who help complete paperwork and turn on the distance ed system at the appropriate times.

What is your balance between programs that require a mostly physical presence and are offered only by your institution within a 2-hr drive and programs that are offered practically everywhere with online being a reasonable thing to do? 

Your auto mechanic courses will probably keep going.  Your general education classes that have no lab work are likely to be slowly transitioned away.  Again, the campus is unlikely to just announce one day that this is the last term, but the slow trickle of courses and programs quietly being reduced is probably going to accelerate this year.

Overall, I don't expect a lot of public community colleges to flat out close.

I do expect their missions to change to be more vo-tech or, in rare cases, expand up to specific bachelor degrees to meet local need.  I can absolutely see RN programs expand to be BSN and to perhaps acquire teaching certificate programs for those who already have a bachelor degree in something.  With the mission change, I can see specific faculty jobs being eliminated as no longer supporting the new mission.  Were I employed by a CC that isn't already in dire financial straits, I would be much more worried about how the mission change will affect my job than the institution itself just flat out closing.

Polly has some good thoughts above regarding what to look for in assessing a two-year college's long-term prospects.  To which I'd add, by way of elaboration:

First, all public schools, two-year or four-year, have a built-in regional constituency.  They were usually set up that way on purpose.  This gives them strong armor against being closed.  That's why I don't expect either UALR or Henderson State University, the two stressed public schools in my home state, to shut down any time soon.  As polly notes, though, that does not mean they can't expect to see programs cut in response to problems with funding, demographic changes, and changes in what students see the need to study.  She is also probably right in saying that smaller two-year campuses in regions where they are relatively thick on the ground are likely to undergo consolidation in a way that reduces what they do.  A few may even eventually close.

Second, polly's probably also correct that many two-year places will probably move more to a vocational-technical mission.  Many of them were originally vo-tech schools in the first place.  They're likely to revert back to that.  I'd like to think that the gen-ed components won't go away as completely as polly seems to think, but they will in all likelihood diminish at many schools.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 10, 2020, 08:22:31 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 10, 2020, 06:27:22 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 09, 2020, 04:41:04 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 06, 2020, 06:13:56 AM
However, that's one concrete example of the fallacy of asserting that only a liberal arts education or a good general education with a healthy dollop of humanities for everyone is doing something fabulous to prepare people for a changing life after college.

Engineering, nursing, and K-12 teaching are professional programs that usually only check the box on general education and often have almost no free electives.

Anybody see the physics student from Hendrix College discuss "liberal arts" on College Jeopardy tonight?

Physics is a liberal arts field.  That's why he could major in it at Hendrix College. 

It was just kind of funny considering the discussion here.

He's at minute 4:30, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE1pPt7J9dA&t=282s) the tall blond fella and the eventual champion of the game.

Mind you, this does not prove or disprove anything, but it does illustrate that your ideas about what students want or don't want might be a little severe and self congratulating. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 10, 2020, 11:30:22 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 10, 2020, 08:12:39 AM

[. . .]

Many of them were originally vo-tech schools in the first place.  They're likely to revert back to that. 

[. . .]

I lack the historical knowledge of U.S. higher education to have the details, but I have a vague impression that the shift in community colleges from vo-tech education to "do your first two years of college here if you don't have the grades or the money to get into the state four-year campus directly out of high school" model occurring in the late 1970s and 1980s -- I think because of the belief that all the disappearing manufacturing jobs would magically reappear as equally well-paid white collar service jobs, for which a B.A. in any random subject would be required (the "everyone has to go to college" mantra).   

Quote from: apl68 on April 10, 2020, 08:12:39 AM

[. . .]

First, all public schools, two-year or four-year, have a built-in regional constituency.  They were usually set up that way on purpose.  This gives them strong armor against being closed.  That's why I don't expect either UALR or Henderson State University, the two stressed public schools in my home state, to shut down any time soon.  As polly notes, though, that does not mean they can't expect to see programs cut in response to problems with funding, demographic changes, and changes in what students see the need to study. 

[. . .]

For example, the PASSHE campuses, half of which probably should be closed, but won't.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on April 10, 2020, 12:48:31 PM
Quote from: risenanew on April 09, 2020, 07:26:03 PM
Thanks ahead of time for your help in understanding how likely two-year community colleges are to close... I'm working in a medium-sized (roughly 10,000 students) public two-year community college and am trying to figure out how vulnerable we may be in the future!

In terms of closing, on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 most vulnerable, your institution is -5.Two-year CCs with 10,000 students are not going to close right now in the absence of something like an attack by space aliens.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 10, 2020, 12:57:55 PM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 10, 2020, 12:48:31 PM
Quote from: risenanew on April 09, 2020, 07:26:03 PM
Thanks ahead of time for your help in understanding how likely two-year community colleges are to close... I'm working in a medium-sized (roughly 10,000 students) public two-year community college and am trying to figure out how vulnerable we may be in the future!

In terms of closing, on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 most vulnerable, your institution is -5.Two-year CCs with 10,000 students are not going to close right now in the absence of something like an attack by space aliens.

Yes, a school that size will easily have a large enough constituency to have friends in the state's legislature.  Nor is it going to be consolidated or busted down to vo-tech status overnight, even given the Covid-19 disruption.  Some programs might close, and the gen-ed programs might erode, but they're not going away all at once.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 10, 2020, 02:08:20 PM
Guilford College has furloughed more than half of its non-faculty employees:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/04/10/colleges-announce-furloughs-and-layoffs-financial-challenges-mount (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/04/10/colleges-announce-furloughs-and-layoffs-financial-challenges-mount).

Furloughs at other schools discussed in the article.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 11, 2020, 04:10:27 AM
Columbia College, South Carolina:

The president has resigned; she was named interim president in 2017 and was hired as president in 2018. The new interim president was president 1988-1997.

The college ran deficits FYs 2011 through 2017. Undergraduate FTE in 2018 was 1,200; the year before it was 1,360. It is trying to go co-ed and plans to admit male students possibly beginning in 2021.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 13, 2020, 06:23:27 AM
Northwest Missouri State is the example in an IHE article about how states are cutting public funds for next year (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/04/13/public-colleges-face-looming-financial-blow-state-budget-cuts).  Losing 9% of an already tight budget isn't going to be good and the stimulus isn't enough to even cover the loss of room and board from this spring.

Another example from the article is Rutgers University.
QuoteRutgers University lost $73 million. The cut hurts, considering Rutgers will receive only $54 million from the federal stimulus package -- a figure a Rutgers spokeswoman called "woefully short." Including the state cut, the university is slated to lose $200 million in just the next three months, including $50 million in room and board refunds, she said.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on April 13, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
I feel as if we have all suddenly moved into the category of "Colleges in Dire Financial Straits."  My U is an already-underfunded mid-tier flagship state university, and we are hemorrhaging money. We've lost $25 million on the students being sent home from university housing, and a lot of students are dropping classes this term — who knows whether they'll re-enroll if there are more terms of online teaching, as there may well be. All hiring is frozen. Some departments have been told they can't accept grad students for next year.  Staff have been laid off in their hundreds and some non-tenure-track people have already been told they will not be renewed.  Now the discussion is whether to cut tenure-track salaries or close departments, or both. 

However, we all notice that the expensive sports construction is going ahead as planned, and the expensive new coach positions are still being advertised. (Salary: ~$800,000.)  I'm sure there are all kinds of reasons for this like dedicated funding streams, but it is not making any of the rest of us feel like sacrificing for the common good.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 13, 2020, 12:47:52 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 13, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
However, we all notice that the expensive sports construction is going ahead as planned, and the expensive new coach positions are still being advertised. (Salary: ~$800,000.)  I'm sure there are all kinds of reasons for this like dedicated funding streams, but it is not making any of the rest of us feel like sacrificing for the common good.

Publicize. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 13, 2020, 12:50:36 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 13, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
Some departments have been told they can't accept grad students for next year.

University of Arizona has withdrawn funded graduate offers, but grad students who want to attend without funding are still admitted if they commit soon. (https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-education/2020/04/09/university-arizona-withdraws-financial-offers-some-graduate-students-coronavirus/5127250002/)

Discussion on the UA situation continues at http://dailynous.com/2020/04/08/u-arizona-retracts-ph-d-funding-pandemic/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 13, 2020, 12:57:27 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 13, 2020, 12:47:52 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 13, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
However, we all notice that the expensive sports construction is going ahead as planned, and the expensive new coach positions are still being advertised. (Salary: ~$800,000.)  I'm sure there are all kinds of reasons for this like dedicated funding streams, but it is not making any of the rest of us feel like sacrificing for the common good.

Publicize.

What difference do you think it will make?  "Everyone" already knows that athletics at many places have resources that could be used for something else like faculty or academic support.  People like athletics and many of those people have the money and other resources to make their wishes known.

It's sort of like thinking that Harvard's abrupt eviction of dorm residents or University of Chicago's failure to refund tuition for labs that aren't nearly as good online will somehow matter.  Nope, if they call tomorrow, almost no one will refuse based on this one incident.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 13, 2020, 01:11:25 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 13, 2020, 12:57:27 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 13, 2020, 12:47:52 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 13, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
However, we all notice that the expensive sports construction is going ahead as planned, and the expensive new coach positions are still being advertised. (Salary: ~$800,000.)  I'm sure there are all kinds of reasons for this like dedicated funding streams, but it is not making any of the rest of us feel like sacrificing for the common good.

Publicize.

What difference do you think it will make?  "Everyone" already knows that athletics at many places have resources that could be used for something else like faculty or academic support.  People like athletics and many of those people have the money and other resources to make their wishes known.

It's sort of like thinking that Harvard's abrupt eviction of dorm residents or University of Chicago's failure to refund tuition for labs that aren't nearly as good online will somehow matter.  Nope, if they call tomorrow, almost no one will refuse based on this one incident.

You do realize, Polly, that your automatic response is ALWAYS to deny that there is anything to be done.

I disagree.  These are not ordinary times.  And no, not "everyone" knows these things. Perhaps it will not do any good.  Or it might.  You don't know.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sockknitter on April 13, 2020, 01:43:56 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 13, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
I feel as if we have all suddenly moved into the category of "Colleges in Dire Financial Straits."  My U is an already-underfunded mid-tier flagship state university, and we are hemorrhaging money. We've lost $25 million on the students being sent home from university housing, and a lot of students are dropping classes this term — who knows whether they'll re-enroll if there are more terms of online teaching, as there may well be. All hiring is frozen. Some departments have been told they can't accept grad students for next year.  Staff have been laid off in their hundreds and some non-tenure-track people have already been told they will not be renewed.  Now the discussion is whether to cut tenure-track salaries or close departments, or both. 

However, we all notice that the expensive sports construction is going ahead as planned, and the expensive new coach positions are still being advertised. (Salary: ~$800,000.)  I'm sure there are all kinds of reasons for this like dedicated funding streams, but it is not making any of the rest of us feel like sacrificing for the common good.

I don't know how bad things are at my institution, because our largest college within the university had already started the academic year several million dollars in the hole thanks to our new funding model. Despite our president's efforts to encourage students to live on campus (let's start a football team!), we are still largely a commuter school. We're issuing partial refunds on housing and board, but maybe our low residential numbers is the silver lining for us.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 13, 2020, 02:31:42 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 13, 2020, 01:11:25 PM
I disagree.  These are not ordinary times.  And no, not "everyone" knows these things. Perhaps it will not do any good.  Or it might.  You don't know.

Honest question, what specific publicity actions do you recommend taking and why will that work now when it never has in the past?

The University of Iowa has stated it will be making cuts to its athletic budget: https://dailyiowan.com/2020/04/09/iowa-ad-gary-barta-anticipates-financial-changes-within-athletic-department-amid-covid-19/

However, it's pretty unlikely that they will just cut everything and give up athletics entirely.  You might want to read up on what value athletics has to institutions and why even losing money directly on athletics can be worth the tradeoff to the institution in other ways.

It's true that no one can predict exactly what will happen with absolute certainty.  However, based on decades of reading higher ed literature and why college athletics just don't go away, even when they are clearly losing money, the smart bet is on cutting things that are easier to rebuild quickly than athletics.  If we're just talking teaching, hiring even 1000 good teachers is much easier when the money comes back than rebuilding a good athletics program from scratch.

It's true that no one knows exactly what will happen, but humans are humans.  Americans believe in athletics as part of college.  Unlike the trends in majors and adjunct attrition that likely will be accelerated as a cost-savings measure, there wasn't any large scale trend in athletics that can be accelerated under the guise of "hard" budget decisions that are actually just not letting a good crisis go to waste.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on April 13, 2020, 02:46:34 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 13, 2020, 02:31:42 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 13, 2020, 01:11:25 PM
I disagree.  These are not ordinary times.  And no, not "everyone" knows these things. Perhaps it will not do any good.  Or it might.  You don't know.

Honest question, what specific publicity actions do you recommend taking and why will that work now when it never has in the past?

The University of Iowa has stated it will be making cuts to its athletic budget: https://dailyiowan.com/2020/04/09/iowa-ad-gary-barta-anticipates-financial-changes-within-athletic-department-amid-covid-19/

However, it's pretty unlikely that they will just cut everything and give up athletics entirely.  You might want to read up on what value athletics has to institutions and why even losing money directly on athletics can be worth the tradeoff to the institution in other ways.

It's true that no one can predict exactly what will happen with absolute certainty.  However, based on decades of reading higher ed literature and why college athletics just don't go away, even when they are clearly losing money, the smart bet is on cutting things that are easier to rebuild quickly than athletics.  If we're just talking teaching, hiring even 1000 good teachers is much easier when the money comes back than rebuilding a good athletics program from scratch.

It's true that no one knows exactly what will happen, but humans are humans.  Americans believe in athletics as part of college.  Unlike the trends in majors and adjunct attrition that likely will be accelerated as a cost-savings measure, there wasn't any large scale trend in athletics that can be accelerated under the guise of "hard" budget decisions that are actually just not letting a good crisis go to waste.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I am pretty confident the discussions about cuts in athletic departments in the SEC, Big10, Pac 12, ACC and Big 12 wii be substantially different than in the rest of the NCAA because of the past revenue from the FBS Championship, NCAA tournament and their television networks. Similarly, the Ivies with their large endowments. The former don't need to subsidize athletics as much, and the latter just don't notice the cost in the general fund.

The rest? Athletics subsidies are a much bigger percentage of general fund expenditures. When THOSE schools announce substantial athletic cuts I'll pay attention.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on April 13, 2020, 03:20:12 PM
Well, what goes around comes around: Don't we have something here: The athletic resources help prepare students for jobs! :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 13, 2020, 04:13:45 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 13, 2020, 02:31:42 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 13, 2020, 01:11:25 PM
I disagree.  These are not ordinary times.  And no, not "everyone" knows these things. Perhaps it will not do any good.  Or it might.  You don't know.

Honest question, what specific publicity actions do you recommend taking and why will that work now when it never has in the past?

I'm getting tired of answering the same challenges.  I've answered that particular one several times. 

I don't know what will work now.  I am just suggesting we try.

Yes sweetie, I know you think you are very wise and knowledgeable because, gosh you're smart, you've sat on some committees once.  Okay, that's some snark.  But I've talked about athletics and my alma mater a number of times.  You simply don't present anything that's not common knowledge.

If you want to talk, please pay attention.

And now is a much different time than any time in the past.  In fact, 2020 is unprecedented in a number of ways.  You recognize that, don't you?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on April 13, 2020, 06:40:11 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 13, 2020, 04:13:45 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 13, 2020, 02:31:42 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 13, 2020, 01:11:25 PM
I disagree.  These are not ordinary times.  And no, not "everyone" knows these things. Perhaps it will not do any good.  Or it might.  You don't know.

Honest question, what specific publicity actions do you recommend taking and why will that work now when it never has in the past?

I'm getting tired of answering the same challenges.  I've answered that particular one several times. 

I don't know what will work now.  I am just suggesting we try.

Yes sweetie, I know you think you are very wise and knowledgeable because, gosh you're smart, you've sat on some committees once.  Okay, that's some snark.  But I've talked about athletics and my alma mater a number of times.  You simply don't present anything that's not common knowledge.

If you want to talk, please pay attention.

And now is a much different time than any time in the past.  In fact, 2020 is unprecedented in a number of ways.  You recognize that, don't you?

You are making this personal.  Knock it off.  I get it - you're frustrated.  Fair enough.  But once this devolves into "sweetie" and "you are very wise", you are not serving your argument well.  As LarryC once told me on the old fora "You're better than this. Stop it."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 13, 2020, 07:22:10 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on April 13, 2020, 06:40:11 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 13, 2020, 04:13:45 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 13, 2020, 02:31:42 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 13, 2020, 01:11:25 PM
I disagree.  These are not ordinary times.  And no, not "everyone" knows these things. Perhaps it will not do any good.  Or it might.  You don't know.

Honest question, what specific publicity actions do you recommend taking and why will that work now when it never has in the past?

I'm getting tired of answering the same challenges.  I've answered that particular one several times. 

I don't know what will work now.  I am just suggesting we try.

Yes sweetie, I know you think you are very wise and knowledgeable because, gosh you're smart, you've sat on some committees once.  Okay, that's some snark.  But I've talked about athletics and my alma mater a number of times.  You simply don't present anything that's not common knowledge.

If you want to talk, please pay attention.

And now is a much different time than any time in the past.  In fact, 2020 is unprecedented in a number of ways.  You recognize that, don't you?

You are making this personal.  Knock it off.  I get it - you're frustrated.  Fair enough.  But once this devolves into "sweetie" and "you are very wise", you are not serving your argument well.  As LarryC once told me on the old fora "You're better than this. Stop it."

I'm not frustrated, actually, I simply respond how I am responded to.  But you are correct.

Perhaps Polly and I should just ignore each other. It's too bad because I rather like Polly.  I was waiting for somebody to log on and tell one or both of us to knock it off.

Peace. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 13, 2020, 07:30:21 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on April 13, 2020, 06:40:11 PM
You are making this personal.  Knock it off.  I get it - you're frustrated.  Fair enough.  But once this devolves into "sweetie" and "you are very wise", you are not serving your argument well.  As LarryC once told me on the old fora "You're better than this. Stop it."

I've observed that sarcasm and snark often seem to be a replacement for any attempt to actually refute the arguments someone else has made. It sounds "clever" without needing to address the issues that have been raised.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on April 13, 2020, 07:48:09 PM
Since we have been protesting at top volume the firewall between academic funding and sports funding for the entire time I've been at the university, I think the conviction that nothing can be done is almost certainly true. Or rather, nothing will be done. The answer that is given by back channels is that certain large donors will be horrified if sports funding is decreased, and given the horrifically low amount of state support, they're effectively the only steady financial support the university has.  But it doesn't do much for morale. Meanwhile all the badly paid cafeteria ladies and cleaners are out of a job.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 14, 2020, 02:32:28 AM
The USA seems to be the only country in the world where 18-year olds and their parents are willing to acquire a substantial amount of debt to pay for a small minority of the product purchasers to participate in a recreational experience. Or maybe, if you include spectators, to participate in or watch others engage in a recreational experience.

2020 is not unprecedented when it comes to financial conditions for U.S. universities. 2008 had the same effect that Covid-19 is having/will have. Direct taxpayer support of public universities through state legislative appropriations has been declining for decades. And the 2026 demographic drop off of 18 year olds is right around the corner. When your business model no longer works, "crisis" happens regularly.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 14, 2020, 04:24:09 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 13, 2020, 07:48:09 PM
...certain large donors will be horrified if sports funding is decreased, and given the horrifically low amount of state support, they're effectively the only steady financial support the university has.  But it doesn't do much for morale. Meanwhile all the badly paid cafeteria ladies and cleaners are out of a job.

Quote from: spork on April 14, 2020, 02:32:28 AM
The USA seems to be the only country in the world where 18-year olds and their parents are willing to acquire a substantial amount of debt to pay for a small minority of the product purchasers to participate in a recreational experience. Or maybe, if you include spectators, to participate in or watch others engage in a recreational experience.

2020 is not unprecedented when it comes to financial conditions for U.S. universities. 2008 had the same effect that Covid-19 is having/will have. Direct taxpayer support of public universities through state legislative appropriations has been declining for decades. And the 2026 demographic drop off of 18 year olds is right around the corner. When your business model no longer works, "crisis" happens regularly.

These observations suggest that, for a handful of schools, there is a business model riding on this phenomenon. It requires committing in the direction they have been going, but denying. Go all in for the big donors. Whatever they want for the long term. Prestige is the name of the game, so the administration needs a laser focus on making sure that admission to the school is prestigeous, that donating to the school confers prestige on the donor, being an alumnus even carries prestige within a certain group. The athletic programs and the greek system should be integrated with the academics.

The college could even have its own Rick Singers to expedite matters. Face it, you want to attract the people for whom "exclusive" isn't good enough. They need concierge exclusive.

While top academic achievement would not be a criterion for admission, a respectable median score is necessary for prestige.

I see this model working on a national scale, but also on a regional scale. (Since we have been discussing them, which Arkansas school is the best conversion candidate?)

Something close to this approach was a historic model in some old New England colleges, but they have become far too expensive for this model to work. They have taken on advanced coursework, research and other expensive non-essential activities that the upstarts would wisely avoid. Something close to this was also USCs model among the elite of Southern California. They got into mission creep about a generation ago, and you see what that has led to.

Sorry about writing something so hopeful on this thread. I guess I'm just in good spirits this morning.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 14, 2020, 08:45:30 AM
Quote from: Hibush on April 14, 2020, 04:24:09 AM

[. . . ]

The college could even have its own Rick Singers to expedite matters. Face it, you want to attract the people for whom "exclusive" isn't good enough. They need concierge exclusive.

[. . . ]

In a similar vein: the increasingly frequent phenomenon of "academic coaches," sometimes attached to the university via subcontractors, sometimes not. Earlier this semester a colleague nailed two of her students for plagiarism -- parts of both essays were identical and obviously not written by the students. Turns out both had been using the same "coach" since high school to write their papers for them.

More broadly, I'm reminded of the different paths followed by, for example, Elon and Guilford in North Carolina. Elon doubled its undergraduate enrollment, built out graduate programs, and expanded its campus by marketing itself as "the next best thing, with better weather" to parents whose children did not gain entry to Georgetown, GWU, or American and who toured campuses along I-85. Donors loved getting their names on the new buildings. While it went big and shiny, Guilford stuck to its traditional business model of the small liberal arts college with only a weak regional reputation (i.e., not Davidson). And Guilford has been having serious problems for the last decade.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 14, 2020, 09:27:23 AM
So far so good.

We only see enrollments for my wife and my classes on our system, and they are mostly on track for this time of year.  All our classes should run.  No official word from admin on anything.

Predictions of the worst recession since the Great Depression are frightening.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 14, 2020, 04:32:56 PM
Quote from: spork on April 14, 2020, 08:45:30 AM
Quote from: Hibush on April 14, 2020, 04:24:09 AM

[. . . ]

The college could even have its own Rick Singers to expedite matters. Face it, you want to attract the people for whom "exclusive" isn't good enough. They need concierge exclusive.

[. . . ]

In a similar vein: the increasingly frequent phenomenon of "academic coaches," sometimes attached to the university via subcontractors, sometimes not. Earlier this semester a colleague nailed two of her students for plagiarism -- parts of both essays were identical and obviously not written by the students. Turns out both had been using the same "coach" since high school to write their papers for them.

Having coaches that are employed or franchised by the college not only provides income for the institution, it provides a certain degree of quality control. The clients see added value in having the right brand as well. These freelance coaches just don't cut it for the caliber of school we are discussing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 16, 2020, 07:10:06 PM
First, Minnesota State Moorhead cuts majors and jobs (https://www.inforum.com/news/education/5060881-Minnesota-State-University-Moorhead-to-cut-10-majors-over-60-jobs?fbclid=IwAR0dvu4Rl3WVmWGyegJmJJ3aPqT6A1z_bTySZPrp_YUYBNyfIUZrzUlc0Vk#.XpepUuz2WwA.facebook)

Second, I really want to know specific actions individuals can take now and why those actions will work this time when human beings seldom change their group behavior and there's no reason to expect they would change now.

Yes, this is an unusual time and predictions can be wrong.  However, not all predictions are equally likely, especially those that are very much like the give-the-Dean-a-huge-bag-of-money goblin in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather style wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on April 17, 2020, 07:03:49 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 16, 2020, 07:10:06 PM

Second, I really want to know specific actions individuals can take now and why those actions will work this time when human beings seldom change their group behavior and there's no reason to expect they would change now.

Yes, this is an unusual time and predictions can be wrong.  However, not all predictions are equally likely, especially those that are very much like the give-the-Dean-a-huge-bag-of-money goblin in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather style wishful thinking.

I don't know if this counts as individual action or group behavior, but the first thing that's going to be frozen or deleted from almost every budget is travel. I'm supposed to be on the other side of the country at a conference today, but we will be ZOOMing it instead. Everybody I know who works at a non-profit (educational or otherwise) is slashing all non-essential travel. I am co-sponsoring a conference in the Fall, and have already proposed making it a virtual event. This should save money, and greatly reduce the chance that it will be delayed again.

I'll take up other individual actions on another thread.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on April 17, 2020, 09:24:53 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 16, 2020, 07:10:06 PM
Second, I really want to know specific actions individuals can take now and why those actions will work this time when human beings seldom change their group behavior and there's no reason to expect they would change now.

Group behavior changes surprisingly fast when an institution runs up against a budget constraint. Not always, of course, but my university and department are both very different from when I started working here. Has that meant individual jobs have changed dramatically? Nope. My job isn't that different from what it was when I started. That doesn't mean my department hasn't seen big changes.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on April 17, 2020, 11:05:24 AM
To specify my university's draconian cuts would be to out my university, but I'll just say that however dire the situation, the choices my university is making have us all appalled.  Let's say that the faculty are being expected to accept significant cuts to their salaries, while the athletic coaches are apparently untouchable — even though the athletic programs are entirely suspended right now, while the faculty work like dogs trying to get everything online. The ~$8 million per year that the top coach makes would alone pay the salaries of the 200 instructors who are being fired.  We're being encouraged to "pitch in and make sacrifices," but I'm not sure why we should make sacrifices when the athletic program is living as high on the hog as ever. The ostensible reason is that faculty salaries come from tuition, which is expected to drop, whereas athletics comes from some other bucket.  I'm not sure why that bucket can't contribute to the overall mission of the university.  I'll say that by some sleight of hand, the athletic program appears to break even, but having been on the committee that deals with these things, I know that actually the other programs subsidize athletics to the tune of several million dollars per year.  So it's not as if athletics "makes a profit" — and even if it did, it wouldn't be doing so now, with all athletics suspended.  We are livid.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on April 17, 2020, 12:27:47 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 17, 2020, 11:05:24 AM
To specify my university's draconian cuts would be to out my university, but I'll just say that however dire the situation, the choices my university is making have us all appalled.  Let's say that the faculty are being expected to accept significant cuts to their salaries, while the athletic coaches are apparently untouchable — even though the athletic programs are entirely suspended right now, while the faculty work like dogs trying to get everything online. The ~$8 million per year that the top coach makes would alone pay the salaries of the 200 instructors who are being fired.  We're being encouraged to "pitch in and make sacrifices," but I'm not sure why we should make sacrifices when the athletic program is living as high on the hog as ever. The ostensible reason is that faculty salaries come from tuition, which is expected to drop, whereas athletics comes from some other bucket.  I'm not sure why that bucket can't contribute to the overall mission of the university.  I'll say that by some sleight of hand, the athletic program appears to break even, but having been on the committee that deals with these things, I know that actually the other programs subsidize athletics to the tune of several million dollars per year.  So it's not as if athletics "makes a profit" — and even if it did, it wouldn't be doing so now, with all athletics suspended.  We are livid.

Donors will no doubt come in and fill the gap in a hurry if the athletics budget is cut. Won't happen with academics. So of course they're going to cut academics.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 17, 2020, 01:43:27 PM
Given remarks from our president and some back-of-the-envelope calculations using the last year's consolidated financial statements, refunds on this semester's room and board equate to 150% of what otherwise would have been this year's net revenue. If fall semester is online, the university's losses will be triple that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jonadam on April 17, 2020, 02:53:39 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 16, 2020, 07:10:06 PM
First, Minnesota State Moorhead cuts majors and jobs (https://www.inforum.com/news/education/5060881-Minnesota-State-University-Moorhead-to-cut-10-majors-over-60-jobs?fbclid=IwAR0dvu4Rl3WVmWGyegJmJJ3aPqT6A1z_bTySZPrp_YUYBNyfIUZrzUlc0Vk#.XpepUuz2WwA.facebook)

Bad idea when Concordia Moorhead, North Dakota State and Mankato all have strong theater programs. And even though language education in this country needs a Martin Luther to nail grievances to a door, knowing and teaching a second language is so important. Especially Spanish. I'm disappointed in my state.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: JCu16 on April 17, 2020, 03:08:30 PM
I've heard a few draconian measures, but here is a system that wasn't doing great to begin with (recent mergers) - Vermont States board is voting on whether to close two campuses, including Northern Vermont/what was Lyndon State:

https://www.caledonianrecord.com/news/vermont-state-college-chancellor-calls-for-shutdown-of-nvu-lyndon-campus/article_3d7ae316-80c8-11ea-8aa9-03a36f71f8fb.html

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on April 17, 2020, 03:23:57 PM
Valparaiso: https://www.nwitimes.com/news/valparaiso-university-furloughs-200-employees-president-to-take-30-pay-cut-in-covid-19-reductions/article_38544283-26d4-53b6-a7ef-3a4314fc5b21.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 17, 2020, 07:14:46 PM
One specific thing we can do is vote as many Democrats into office as possible. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: biop_grad on April 17, 2020, 08:27:32 PM
Quote from: JCu16 on April 17, 2020, 03:08:30 PM
I've heard a few draconian measures, but here is a system that wasn't doing great to begin with (recent mergers) - Vermont States board is voting on whether to close two campuses, including Northern Vermont/what was Lyndon State:

https://www.caledonianrecord.com/news/vermont-state-college-chancellor-calls-for-shutdown-of-nvu-lyndon-campus/article_3d7ae316-80c8-11ea-8aa9-03a36f71f8fb.html

Three: all of NVU (what was Lyndon State and Johnson State) and Vermont Technical College's campus in Randolph Center.

My sense though was that NVU was in some difficulties before this.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 18, 2020, 02:10:00 AM
More details here, and of course local politicians are complaining. I find it interesting that the chancellor is apparently putting his own job on the chopping block:

https://www.vnews.com/vermont-plan-would-close-tech-college-campus-in-randolph-33952015 (https://www.vnews.com/vermont-plan-would-close-tech-college-campus-in-randolph-33952015).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 18, 2020, 05:53:12 AM
Quote from: spork on April 18, 2020, 02:10:00 AM
More details here, and of course local politicians are complaining. I find it interesting that the chancellor is apparently putting his own job on the chopping block:

https://www.vnews.com/vermont-plan-would-close-tech-college-campus-in-randolph-33952015 (https://www.vnews.com/vermont-plan-would-close-tech-college-campus-in-randolph-33952015).

Thanks for that informative link. It is notable that legislators who vote to starve the beast are complaining loudest that the beast is starving.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 18, 2020, 06:04:45 AM
Quote from: Hibush on April 18, 2020, 05:53:12 AM
Quote from: spork on April 18, 2020, 02:10:00 AM
More details here, and of course local politicians are complaining. I find it interesting that the chancellor is apparently putting his own job on the chopping block:

https://www.vnews.com/vermont-plan-would-close-tech-college-campus-in-randolph-33952015 (https://www.vnews.com/vermont-plan-would-close-tech-college-campus-in-randolph-33952015).

Thanks for that informative link. It is notable that legislators who vote to starve the beast are complaining loudest that the beast is starving.

Publicize.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 18, 2020, 06:23:47 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 17, 2020, 07:14:46 PM
One specific thing we can do is vote as many Democrats into office as possible.

Under normal conditions, maybe that's an action worth recommending, assuming one is in a state in which the Democrats are the people who fully support education and have the will to send money to the higher ed institutions in the state.

However, when the money's really, truly, no foolin' not there and, by law higher ed is one of the few parts of the state budget that can be cut, realists will cut the higher ed budget and cry over doing so.  The higher ed budget in many states has not recovered from cuts in 2008, which was itself on top of cuts for 2002.  For example, California is making significant revisions to the 2020-2021 budget announced in January based on new information, with education as one of the areas. (https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/10/covid-19-emergency-spending-cost-california-7-billion-officials-say/5135612002/)

"Vote Democrat" has an underlying implication that a specific political party will somehow exert control over higher education in a way that everyone wants.  That's problematic because even those of us who support higher education don't all want the same things and that's part of the problem.

I will explicitly ask why the rest of us should want to have more professors in a given field over all the other possibilities in higher ed.  I understand that you, Wahoo, want more humanities professors.  That's been clear for years.

The question is why the rest of us should prioritize those particular jobs over the things we see as necessary, valuable, or even just desirable in higher ed.  I don't grok college athletics because my undergrad was spent at a place with only intramurals (i.e., the gym put out sign up sheets, you put your name as either part of a team of friends or someone who would like to be assigned to a team, the gym arranged a schedule, and everyone who wanted to play got to play).

However, I also don't grok the insistence that the humanities are at the heart of a college education, because that wasn't true at my alma mater and still isn't true there or anywhere else I've been, including Super Dinky that was still billing itself as a liberal arts college as recently as last week when I went to look.  The demographic shifts and the distribution of bachelor degrees people have been earning in the past three decades mean many, many of us have college educations that aren't humanities based or even liberal-arts based.  Thus, all the assertions of the necessity of the liberal arts to the college/university experience tend to fall flat, just like an assertion in a general public venue that a Subaru Outback is really the only vehicle worth having and all those who ride the bus, have a Honda Accord, or keep driving that old pick-up truck on the ranch are just plain wrong.

In recent years, approximately 150k people taught at least one humanities course at the post-secondary level and that includes all the contingent faculty including graduate student instructors of record.  In recent years, approximately 50k people earned graduate degrees in the humanities.  That means we could replace all the humanities faculty every three years, which is also problematic when careers can be multiple decades long.

However, if we look at what programs are turning away prospective students for lack of capacity, the humanities aren't generally in that category.  During discussions of how to hire more faculty to meet student demand to expand programs that are currently turning away qualified students (i.e., reduced enrollment that could have been at the institution), the humanities are seldom on the list of necessary new faculty hires.

So the question remains, why do you think that voting Democrat is going to result in hiring more full-time humanities faculty when the problem is many of us who aren't (aspiring) humanities faculty don't see a need for all the humanities faculty that we currently have, especially when resources are tight and the needs are so pressing in other areas of academia? 

Publicizing that trustees or even legislatures are doing exactly what people-who-aren't-you want doesn't tend to result in shaming with those people-who-aren't-you.  That's one reason that Trump still has an approval rating of mid-40s--he's doing what he promised to do and a noticeable fraction of the US public wanted that and continue to want that.  SPADFY continues to be a thing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on April 18, 2020, 07:26:27 AM
Had to look up grok, and when searching for SPADFY, most of the results come from the Chronicle, including more than one from our own Polly.

I'm in VT, having relocated to work at a college that is no longer in Dire Straits, and which has instead passed from this mortal coil. It is deceased. Stone cold dead. And while I followed Polly's advice as much as I could in the last ten years (it really is sound advice) I didn't realize said college was bereft of life because it was resting on a perch it had (in fact) been nailed to. It had incredible plumage. Some deft 990s and fraud papered over the deepest trouble, and NECHE's double-secret-probation (which is called, privately, "notice of concern") didn't help. The college I left (in the midwest, which might even be Super Dinky) is a worse college, with worse plumage. It has no pulse, but the time of death has not been called.

Hundreds of other humanities programs are nailed to the perch, and I'd say at least a hundred whole colleges are similarly propped in their cages. The math has caught up with higher ed, and covid-19 has accelerated realizations, while worsening all underlying financials. The colleges that will be here in 2024 will have a brand already, will be nimble, and will have cleaned up their operations over the last ten years (which will necessarily have included one of the following: a) an enormous endowment, or b) a serious and continuing de-emphasis of humanities programming.) I think those colleges will prosper.

I like the rescue plan offered by NAB, and I believe the humanities and SLACs have value and power. Not more value, though, than other things that are similarly *undervalued* by "starve the beast" politicians and consumers who vote with their feet. This retrenching is long overdue, and the scarce resources we've got simply aren't best-allocated toward the humanities. This thread will be useful for those wanting to tell the history of humanities-based higher ed. It was a luxury, and seems like it was a fun ride, but it was never actually the center of the universe, as it had imagined.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZw35VUBdzo
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 18, 2020, 10:05:53 AM
Well, firstly Polly, do you really want to go over this again? 

If you are waiting for me to capitulate, probably not going to happen, mainly because I acknowledge most of what you have posted, but we disagree about what should be done next. 

Students are not enrolling in the humanities in the numbers they were in years past.  Humanities doesn't bring in much if any grant money or big donors.  Humanities do not teach many directly applicable job skills except maybe "written communication"----at least not job skills you can list with any specificity on a resume---at least not job skills you couldn't claim from any number of different disciplines----even if the humanities actually are a good (and no, Polly, not the ONLY way) to learn some valuable job skills.  To make matters worse, humanities professors are terrible about marketing themselves and disinclined to try in the first place. To make matters even worse, we have entered a time of austerity. Campuses are closing. Then, to hand us a nail, COVID hits.

You and I believe the same things except when, as is so typical of human beings, in order to make a point you must exaggerate or distort or strawman what I have posted (which is a reason to ignore you as I do certain other posters...I almost did this time).

Who has ever said that "the humanities are at the heart of a college education"?  YOU keep saying that.  This is the point you would LIKE to argue, but it is not a point that anybody has except for you.  Your irritation shows at times like this.

What I believe is that the lib arts are part of the whole, and an important part, even for the "practical" or "professional" degrees.  Check the responses on the polls I posted, particularly the The Purpose of College is Employment (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=1244.0).  Suuuuure, of couuuursssse, this is a tiny cross-section on a tiny Fora----but it is probably pretty representative. 

Secondly, my point about the jobs for "humanities" is one which, again, I have stated over and over.  I actually took this point from someone on the old CHE fora.  Very simply, I got tired of hearing that "there are no jobs" in the humanities when, in fact, there are literally thousands of jobs in the humanities----the trouble is that they have been diced into bits and pieces which is not good for anyone.

Specifically I was thinking of the writing instructors who teach a class that literally every college student in America must pass at one point, whether in duel-enrollment, on-line, or whatever.  If you want to post something stupid, please tell us that our students, even our smartest ones, don't need this writing coaching.  Please post that somehow, since we can't seem to fix college, we will somehow, when we get that magic bag of money, upgrade K-12 and teach everyone to write by the time they are 17-years-old. 

We will still need college writing teachers.  Writing is a skill that is developed across years of practice; it takes maturity.  If you want, research why Harvard started the first comp class in the late 19th century (sorry, forgot the actual date) until the local high schools could get up to snuff. 

If you want to post that somehow these classes are unimportant in the age of cyber-communication, go for it.

Then, of course, we have all the business writing, creative writing, advanced writing, medical writing, screen writing, technical and professional writing classes which students want to take.

Then, of course, we do have those students who really do enjoy taking the odd humanities class (anyone watch the semi-finalist on Jeopardy talk about his "liberal arts" degree?).  I had two pre-med students this last semester before we launched on-line---you can figure out what I am about to say about their participation in my classes.

So, to sum up, I am saying that one of the crucial classes of college education has been frittered away until certain hyperbolic people can refer to them as "box-checking" classes because of some odd, fairly extreme bias that most other faculty, even if they acknowledge the writing on the wall, don't share (no play on words intended).

I also believe that---as our world becomes increasingly interconnected and polarized at the same time, increasingly multicultural and xenophobic at the same time----language, history, and political science classes are also very justifiable. 

And I don't think that education is just so kids can get jobs.  Most academics agree to one degree or the other (I suspect I know who voted "Yes" on my poll above).

Democrats have been the education party as long as I've been alive---and maybe some of them have enough brains and cultural insight to remember when college was considered a social good.

I also know that large groups of people change their minds about things.  Sometimes it take a while, but I've never seen a "Whites Only" sign anywhere but in pictures on the Internet taken before people started to do something about it.  If we as a culture can do that, I think we can revitalize our colleges.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 18, 2020, 11:21:12 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 18, 2020, 10:05:53 AM

What I believe is that the lib arts are part of the whole, and an important part, even for the "practical" or "professional" degrees.  Check the responses on the polls I posted, particularly the The Purpose of College is Employment (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=1244.0).  Suuuuure, of couuuursssse, this is a tiny cross-section on a tiny Fora----but it is probably pretty representative. 


Discussions like this are difficult when there's an attempt to force a choice. As tuxthepenguin said in that thread,
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 13, 2020, 09:25:34 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 12, 2020, 08:52:51 AM
Employment is the important thing.

Education is not job training.

Yes: Higher ed, particularly undergraduate education, should be completely predicated on future employment goals.

No: There's more to life than 9 to 5.

Well...kind'a...: This is what I think...

I'm not on board with this framing of the issue.

We take lots of classes while in college, so we accomplish more than one thing. I don't talk to a lot of students that only hope to get a job out of their college experience. Even the biggest Trump supporters enjoy taking history classes and learning about things that will have no direct financial benefit to them in the future.

One of the outcomes we should be striving for is employment opportunities. College is expensive. It only works if we're able to transform students from low earners to high earners on average. (We do a remarkable job of this now.)

Something that we should not be doing is job training. It's great to offer classes that have an intellectual component and a job skills component like making pretty graphs in Excel. Degrees that are nothing but job training are not likely to have much value in the workplace. There are better ways to get that type of training.

tldr: There's no one purpose for college and no conflict.
(Emphasis added)

A similar "poll" could be conducted about the purpose of buying a house.
If you're buying a house because it's an investment, but you can't stand to live there, you're buying the wrong house. If you're buying a house that you want to live in but are crippled by the debt, you're buying the wrong house.

If someone spends 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars and can't identify any improvement in their job prospects, then there's a problem. Even if "job training" wasn't their primary goal.

Quote

Specifically I was thinking of the writing instructors who teach a class that literally every college student in America must pass at one point, whether in duel-enrollment, on-line, or whatever.  If you want to post something stupid, please tell us that our students, even our smartest ones, don't need this writing coaching.  Please post that somehow, since we can't seem to fix college, we will somehow, when we get that magic bag of money, upgrade K-12 and teach everyone to write by the time they are 17-years-old. 

We will still need college writing teachers.  Writing is a skill that is developed across years of practice; it takes maturity.  If you want, research why Harvard started the first comp class in the late 19th century (sorry, forgot the actual date) until the local high schools could get up to snuff. 

It fascinates me that this amount of English instruction after high school is seen as so essential in the U.S., when it isn't in so many other English speaking countries.  Is there any evidence that those countries produce much less literate graduates? In the Harvard example above, you have a potential self-fulfilling prophecy; if universities intend to remediate the defects from high school, then high schools don't need to improve.

Quote
I also believe that---as our world becomes increasingly interconnected and polarized at the same time, increasingly multicultural and xenophobic at the same time----language, history, and political science classes are also very justifiable. 

And so are classes in medicine, environmental science, psychology, and so on. How is it anything but completely arbitrary to pick certain areas as something "everyone" should study, and everything else is just for those who are interested?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on April 18, 2020, 02:09:49 PM
Wahoo said this above:  language, history, and political science classes are also very justifiable.

As I see it, there is a big difference between valuable classes and viable majors. There are a lot of valuable courses that are of interest to a wide swath of students. However, those same students have made it clear by voting with their feet that they do not want to pursue those majors. They will dabble but not dive in. And there is real value in the dabble. The issue as I see it is that some faculty are unwilling to face this reality. They do not want to teach "service" courses that are not in pursuit of a major.  I've even seen a former department refuse to teach what they considered to be "remedial courses", even though that was what was needed by the student population to get into courses that were required by other majors. Their response, "Go to the Khan Academy, or take it at a Community College." What a great student-centered, and net tuition revenue cognizant response!  They didn't want to become a "service program". Well guess what? Their program was cut. But don't worry, because apparently not having a job is superior to still teaching in your content area to students who want those particular classes.

I also find it incredibly galling that some entitled faculty don't seem to care that their classes in their major don't fill and that it is increasingly difficult to fill their teaching loads or to give them busy work to justify their full pay. They think they are entitled to a full salary at 75% or 50% teaching load. Pretty nice deal if you can stick it to the students like that. Oh, and it is also galling to faculty in growing majors who have teaching loads 150% and 200% of the average faculty member, without a resulting increase in salary.  Entitlement and privileged indeed. And while it isn't always the case, often the entitled faculty are older faculty hoping the institution holds on for 5 or 10 more years, until they can retire. They certainly don't care about the long-term viability of the institution and the impact on current students or alums, or the ability of their junior colleagues to have 30 year careers. Sure, they were able to have plush 30 year careers. But as long as they get theirs, they don't really care about the impact on others. It sounds amazing to have been a professor over the past 30 years. Regular salary increases of 4%? Automatic cost of living increases? Solid health insurance plans with low/no deductibles or co-pays? High TIAA CREF matches?  It sounds like a dream! And guess what, it was. It wasn't sustainable and its over and we're not going back to that any time soon. Fight all you want, but yearning for yesteryear, when everything was 'great' ain't gonna bring it back. But that's just it. The goal isn't to bring it back. The goal is to resist any change, to limp along under the cozy system you know and love, hoping upon hope that the system can be milked for as long as you need it to, until you can jump off the sinking ship and slink into your Captain's Chair (assuming we can still afford to send you one when you retire.) Heck, just steal one from the library conference room on your way out. We are going to have to liquidate those assets at some point anyway.

Don't worry, I'm not bitter or anything.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 18, 2020, 04:37:15 PM
TreadingLife, are you actually blaming the faculty for the current state of higher education?  You must teach in a very different place than those I am familiar with.

Very, very few faculty are in the 1 percent, including those at the big, powerful, famous R-1s.  Most of us, if we are lucky enough to be employed full time, are somewhere in the 22 percent tax bracket.  Most faculty I know are earnest teachers, even if some are lazier than others (and please note that I said "most" since, yes, all of us know someone somewhere who never should have graced a classroom with their presence).

And most of us contract to teach a certain number of classes for a certain pay, and if those classes do not achieve the minimum enrollment for economic viability, they are cancelled.  If we are lucky enough to be employed full-time, we are assigned classes whether we like them or not.  Where do you teach that your faculty have that much power?  This semester I had over a hundred students in 5 classes with 4 different preps, all of them assigned to me with no real input from my very friendly chair.

What I'd like to know is, why can't I teach scantron classes instead of individually commenting on the multiple papers of my 50 to 100 writing students, depending on what the school needs from me, I get every semester?  That's what chaps my hide, all these professors with GTAs who write and grade their tests for them, easy lab time, the same three classes every two semesters, and who haven't researched anything new in 20 years!!!  These are the people who...okay, I don't really believe that; I was just making a point.

I'm sure you're right that we're going to be chopping appendages off the academic corpus.  What is interesting to me are how many academics (presuming you are who you seem to be) come here to root for the constriction of higher ed because of their unique resentments. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on April 18, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on April 18, 2020, 02:09:49 PM
Sure, they were able to have plush 30 year careers. But as long as they get theirs, they don't really care about the impact on others. It sounds amazing to have been a professor over the past 30 years. Regular salary increases of 4%? Automatic cost of living increases? Solid health insurance plans with low/no deductibles or co-pays? High TIAA CREF matches?  It sounds like a dream! And guess what, it was. It wasn't sustainable and its over and we're not going back to that any time soon. 

I wouldn't be too sure of that, TreadingLife. There are rock-solid provisions in place that protect the entitlements of the winners of the game. They may be able to fund fewer winners in the future than they will this year, but the extreme opposites in employment status are well fortified from all sides including accreditation. The future is very bright indeed for those who get to that echelon.
And we can forget about who finds this 'galling.' Have your PhD, your strong CV, but no job prospects? You made bad life choices. That's what your problem is. No PhD? You're not qualified. You're lucky we let you adjunct.
No this is a well designed pyramid scheme, built to last.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on April 18, 2020, 05:27:24 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 18, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on April 18, 2020, 02:09:49 PM
Sure, they were able to have plush 30 year careers. But as long as they get theirs, they don't really care about the impact on others. It sounds amazing to have been a professor over the past 30 years. Regular salary increases of 4%? Automatic cost of living increases? Solid health insurance plans with low/no deductibles or co-pays? High TIAA CREF matches?  It sounds like a dream! And guess what, it was. It wasn't sustainable and its over and we're not going back to that any time soon. 


No this is a well designed pyramid scheme, built to last.



I need to send you a bill for a new laptop. I burst out my drink when I read that line. Thanks for the laugh.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on April 18, 2020, 05:43:43 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 18, 2020, 04:37:15 PM
TreadingLife, are you actually blaming the faculty for the current state of higher education?  You must teach in a very different place than those I am familiar with.

Very, very few faculty are in the 1 percent, including those at the big, powerful, famous R-1s.  Most of us, if we are lucky enough to be employed full time, are somewhere in the 22 percent tax bracket.  Most faculty I know are earnest teachers, even if some are lazier than others (and please note that I said "most" since, yes, all of us know someone somewhere who never should have graced a classroom with their presence).

I'm not talking about entitled in the sense of salary. I'm talking entitled as in, I won't change what I do, who I do it for, and what impact that might have on others, because I want what works best for me, not the institution or the students.  This has nothing to do with the 1%. The faculty I am referring to don't live high on the hog at my institution.

Quote

And most of us contract to teach a certain number of classes for a certain pay, and if those classes do not achieve the minimum enrollment for economic viability, they are cancelled. 


And then what? What do those faculty do next?

Quote

If we are lucky enough to be employed full-time, we are assigned classes whether we like them or not.  Where do you teach that your faculty have that much power? 


No, its not power. It is a lack of options. If no one wants to take your classes, because either your offerings aren't of interest,  or more increasingly, because enrollments are down, the reality is that there isn't a next thing to force them to teach.  Is there always something for your faculty to teach at your institution? At smaller, shrinking places, that's not a safe assumption that someone can just be forced to teach this or that. So what do they do? Get paid to do nothing?  Yes, the answer is yes, and they think that's the institution should support them year over year because their discipline is important, even though student enrollment says otherwise.

Quote

This semester I had over a hundred students in 5 classes with 4 different preps, all of them assigned to me with no real input from my very friendly chair.

Is this on the tenure track? Or is this a term-type Professor of Practice type situation?

Quote

What I'd like to know is, why can't I teach scantron classes instead of individually commenting on the multiple papers of my 50 to 100 writing students, depending on what the school needs from me, I get every semester?  That's what chaps my hide, all these professors with GTAs who write and grade their tests for them, easy lab time, the same three classes every two semesters, and who haven't researched anything new in 20 years!!!  These are the people who...okay, I don't really believe that; I was just making a point.

But there are people like that, and at smaller institutions, it both undermines the mission for teaching excellence and an active research agenda, leading to the atrophy of the institution. But, how dare we call out the underperformers, who are causing the rest of us to drown. No, we can't do that. We must circle the wagons and deny any problems from the ranks, lest we look weak. If you can't fix the problem, fix the narrative.

Quote

I'm sure you're right that we're going to be chopping appendages off the academic corpus.  What is interesting to me are how many academics (presuming you are who you seem to be) come here to root for the constriction of higher ed because of their unique resentments.

It isn't rooting for constriction. It is looking at the situation objectively and saying, this isn't sustainable. And yet, when you say something isn't sustainable, somehow you are rooting for constriction and demise. I'm the one that wants the 30 year career.  For the past ten years, it has been head in the sand city instead of honest introspection about what it means to be viable and equitable for students and faculty alike.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on April 18, 2020, 06:01:13 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 18, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on April 18, 2020, 02:09:49 PM
Sure, they were able to have plush 30 year careers. But as long as they get theirs, they don't really care about the impact on others. It sounds amazing to have been a professor over the past 30 years. Regular salary increases of 4%? Automatic cost of living increases? Solid health insurance plans with low/no deductibles or co-pays? High TIAA CREF matches?  It sounds like a dream! And guess what, it was. It wasn't sustainable and its over and we're not going back to that any time soon. 

I wouldn't be too sure of that, TreadingLife. There are rock-solid provisions in place that protect the entitlements of the winners of the game.


Tell me more about these rock-solid provisions. Do they hold for schools that close? Or what about programs that are eliminated due to financial exigency? Tenure doesn't protect you in that situation. Aside from the schools with billion dollar endowments, tell me who really has a rock-solid provision?

As an aside, I'm actually curious to see how hard hit some of the R1 schools are now that the COVID shutdown has brought the issuing of visas for the fall to a standstill. I am aware of one school in particular (not mine) whose student body is 30% international. I don't care how deep your endowment is, that's a big hit in a very short period of time if the visa situation isn't resolved, or if campuses are online come the fall. Both could be quite devastating to an institution's bottom line and might drive it to make consolidations. Sure, adjuncts and term-based faculty will be the first to go, but who wants to see their TIAA CREF or other benefits cut? Depending on how bad things are, a lot of people might find that they have built on sand, and not rock after all.

QuoteHave your PhD, your strong CV, but no job prospects? You made bad life choices. That's what your problem is.
No this is a well designed pyramid scheme, built to last.

Really? As hiring slows at all levels of higher ed, and as schools close left and right, you would look a history professor or math professor or business professor in the eye and say "You made bad life choices" when their school closes. Sure they might be able to switch to another industry with their credentials, but many in higher ed are here because they want that career. If every job was perfectly interchangeable, then people would leave academia in a heartbeat. But oh wait, some people actually love the aspects of academia that set it apart from most other careers.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on April 18, 2020, 06:11:30 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 18, 2020, 04:37:15 PM
TreadingLife, are you actually blaming the faculty for the current state of higher education?  You must teach in a very different place than those I am familiar with.


Various sized institutions have been cutting "essential" majors left and right. This thread is full of examples, as was the one at CHE. The faculty control the curriculum, do they not? So if the faculty observe trends in enrollments and see that majors are perennially under-enrolled, some to a criminal level, then is it then not incumbent on the faculty to address that situation? Or would they rather that the provost/dean/regents just take out the axe and swing away? Perhaps the solution is to scream at the 18 year olds who should know better than to not major in X, Y, or Z. How dare they! Or perhaps the solution is to simply pretend there is no problem? As I said before, that's not financially viable at most institutions.  So what is the solution? Might it be to look inward at the organization of the curriculum and ask, ok, what are we doing and who are we serving, and is there any way we could better position ourselves to better meet the needs and interests of our students? Or is this not the faculty's problem?

Oh, pardon me. That would require change, and that's just not allowed. That would require work, thought, compromise and....change.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 18, 2020, 07:31:28 PM
Ooooooookaaaaayyyy.

Quote from: TreadingLife on April 18, 2020, 05:43:43 PM
I'm not talking about entitled in the sense of salary. I'm talking entitled as in, I won't change what I do, who I do it for, and what impact that might have on others, because I want what works best for me, not the institution or the students. 

*****
Is there always something for your faculty to teach at your institution? At smaller, shrinking places, that's not a safe assumption that someone can just be forced to teach this or that. So what do they do? Get paid to do nothing?  Yes, the answer is yes, and they think that's the institution should support them year over year because their discipline is important, even though student enrollment says otherwise.


I suspect that we have a troll who returns in different guises.  You did better this time, TL.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on April 18, 2020, 08:35:50 PM
I'm baffled by the idea that if profs teach courses that don't enroll well, then they have no other options. Of course they have other options, or at least other directives. They develop new courses that enroll better. Maybe their whole field is shrinking, as is the case with modern languages, in which case their department doesn't replace people when they leave or retire.  But the profs keep on teaching. If Italian 101 doesn't enroll enough, the Italian profs offer "Literary Odysseys and Homecomings," Food as Language in Italian Literature," " On Love and Violence: Studying Family," and "Horror, Italian Style," all of which fulfill the university Reading & Composition requirement and thus attract students from outside Italian.  (These are all offerings of the UC Berkeley Italian Department.)  I think TreadingLife must not be in academia, because this is very obvious to academics.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on April 18, 2020, 10:46:45 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 18, 2020, 08:35:50 PM
I'm baffled by the idea that if profs teach courses that don't enroll well, then they have no other options.

If I am reading through the lines properly, he's miffed about professors who get to have small teaching loads or classes with smaller populations in the twilight of their career (and sometimes the sun does indeed set quite slowly) when they're full professor and making the real good bucks, who serve on committees and vote for their own interests, then vote for the interests of the younger tenured faculty upon retirement as a payback for the the sinecure they ended up with. It happens in my field, particularly in the situation of new students not being drawn to the old majors offered. He claims they don't care about how their resistance to change affects others, which, if I had said it, would result in a charge that I am trying to assess the thought processes of people I don't know. But it's really just how tenure works when it's working properly. The million dollar mistake doesn't always prove fatal. Of course, it can result in departments going belly up. That's when the controversy starts. The goose that laid the golden egg is now killed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 19, 2020, 02:43:05 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 18, 2020, 08:35:50 PM
I'm baffled by the idea that if profs teach courses that don't enroll well, then they have no other options. Of course they have other options, or at least other directives. They develop new courses that enroll better. Maybe their whole field is shrinking, as is the case with modern languages, in which case their department doesn't replace people when they leave or retire.  But the profs keep on teaching. If Italian 101 doesn't enroll enough, the Italian profs offer "Literary Odysseys and Homecomings," Food as Language in Italian Literature," " On Love and Violence: Studying Family," and "Horror, Italian Style," all of which fulfill the university Reading & Composition requirement and thus attract students from outside Italian.  (These are all offerings of the UC Berkeley Italian Department.)  I think TreadingLife must not be in academia, because this is very obvious to academics.

I see what TreadingLife describes all the time. Here it's what we call general education requirements -- ensure that each faculty member in departments without majors gets just enough students per course to meet minimum enrollment requirements. The system is designed to force students to take courses they don't want on made-up topics they have no interest in, so that Dr. Socks Darning can get paid for their 32nd year of ineffective, below-average teaching. Then you get some faculty members teaching a few dozen students per academic year while others are teaching close to two hundred (and we don't have grad student teaching assistants). But hey, the system can't be changed, no matter the financial ramifications to the organization or the educational quality for the students.

Berkeley (for example) has 30,000 undergrads. If 0.1% of its students have an interest in the once-every-two-years "Philosophical Implications of Pasta Shapes" course taught by the Italian professor who is otherwise unable to fill out a full teaching schedule (which is what at Berkeley, a 2:1 or a 2:2?) with Italian language courses, then there will be enough students for the course to run. But at Iowa Wesleyan (somewhat hypothetical example), where there hasn't been an Italian major in twenty years and the gen ed foreign language requirement is two semesters (completed most frequently by taking Spanish, taught by adjuncts), all the Italian professor is going to be teaching is sections of Welcome to College 101, the mandatory course in English composition, and a bunch of other courses on made-up topics that have to count toward other gen ed requirements because otherwise no students would enroll in them. And student learning in these courses is just not a concern.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on April 19, 2020, 03:11:50 AM
I actually don't know any faculty members for whom student learning is not a concern. I imagine there must be some, because there are some bad eggs in every corner of the world, but I haven't seen any in action. It certainly doesn't correlate with being in a small field in which you have to teach a lot of gen-ed requirements.  And having been on all too many committees to redesign gen-ed requirements at massive hassle to everyone involved, I can vouch for the fact that they are not there to give dead-wood professors a way to idle away their sunset years. They're there because there are a lot of true believers in universities, who think that exposure to a variety of fields will expand students' worlds in valuable ways. I'm not even that much of a true believer in that, though I do notice that many of the students in my own field find it through being made to enroll, kicking and screaming, in a ged ed course — and then finding that they love it.  And it's also true that U.S. culture is narrow enough that one can't depend on students finding much of an expanded world in high school.  I wish their education were broader from the beginning, but oh well. Say what you want about the starry-eyed idealism of college professors, but that's what's behind the ged ed requirements, not the desire to provide students for otherwise idle profs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 19, 2020, 05:56:49 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 18, 2020, 08:35:50 PM
I'm baffled by the idea that if profs teach courses that don't enroll well, then they have no other options. Of course they have other options, or at least other directives. They develop new courses that enroll better. Maybe their whole field is shrinking, as is the case with modern languages, in which case their department doesn't replace people when they leave or retire.  But the profs keep on teaching. If Italian 101 doesn't enroll enough, the Italian profs offer "Literary Odysseys and Homecomings," Food as Language in Italian Literature," " On Love and Violence: Studying Family," and "Horror, Italian Style," all of which fulfill the university Reading & Composition requirement and thus attract students from outside Italian.  (These are all offerings of the UC Berkeley Italian Department.)  I think TreadingLife must not be in academia, because this is very obvious to academics.

That works great at a large enough institution with people who have free elective slots that they'd like to fill with those kinds of offerings.

We had a significant problem at Super Dinky one term as registration was well underway and students in certain majors flat out refused to sign up for the remaining humanities electives available.  Yep, Zombie Apocalypse opened a second section, but there was no way for us to do a third section. 

Students flat out stated that they would rather be short on credits for a semester at only 12 credits and take general education courses at their local community colleges in the summer to transfer back over signing up for classes that the humanities faculty wanted to teach and students did not want to take.  Even when we pointed out the extra cost, the students stated the extra cost of a few hundred bucks was worth it for classes they could see possible benefit in taking.

We had some serious talks all around and had to get the humanities faculty to offer classes that students wanted to take because SD simply could not afford to pay half the humanities faculty (that's only 5 people, hence the SD) to do something else when sections will be cancelled.

At many points during my time at SD including all the time I was on the general education committee, the strong "hey, that's our JOBS!!!!" message came through at all times.  When we redid the general education curriculum and were approving new courses, the parts of the committee from the humanities were quick to vote down courses proposed by people who weren't humanities folks and to explicitly state "If you let that course run, then no one will sign up for my courses". 

Yes, all our premed students would prefer to take "Ethics in Biology" over "Life in <Specific City> in <Specific Time before Our Grandparents Were Born>".

Yes, all our criminal justice and social work students would prefer to take "Violence in Society" over "British Novels of the 19th Century" or "Intro Journalism".  We had zero majors in English, history, or journalism, but several hundred students in CJ and SW combined (i.e., almost half the college).

The fine arts discussions went similarly.  We can fill a whole section of art history taught by an adjunct and maybe two if we time it right with the other offerings to alternate with music history.  Few outside of already majors want to take performance-based courses in art or music, but people will take FA history or FA appreciation.  Those 11 art majors and 3 music minors shouldn't be the main focus if the professors still want to have a job after the next round of cuts.  I remember explaining the reality of modifying the photography class to be one that regular people want to take over focusing so narrowly on the development of the physical film, which was limiting enrollment in a course that could have had triple the enrollment to bring it up to 20.

The humanities electives had to change to what enrolled students wanted, not what faculty necessarily wanted to teach in an ideal world with tens of thousands of students with many, many elective slots to fill each.  Increasing the humanities or other general education requirements to ensure that the faculty had enough to teach was one way that Super Dinky was losing out on transfer students.

Not offering the majors that high-achieving students wanted and having an onerous, out-of-step-with-competitors-for-the-smaller-college-experience was a double whammy.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on April 19, 2020, 07:13:32 AM
Well, as far as the developing debate about professors who don't care about student learning in these barely populated courses that are provided to give the professor a semblance of a workload, it's easily explained this way. The professors involved may very well hope that the students will learn, but that's no guarantee that they do. Not by a longshot.
The whole thing could be solved by having a system where part-time to full time conversion is a two way street. Demand for what Professor Darned Socks does is on the decrease? Make him part time again. like a small business would do. You know, those enterprises where management has to figure out how to make the business efficient and trim enough to function, instead of pleading for more dollars from the state?

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 19, 2020, 07:50:14 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 19, 2020, 03:11:50 AM
I actually don't know any faculty members for whom student learning is not a concern.

[. . . ]

For some, if there's a conflict between student learning and their preferred mode of teaching, they'll choose the latter every time. There is also another, sometimes overlapping, group that suffers from the Dunning-Kruger effect -- they think they are fantastic teachers but are actually the opposite.

Much more detrimental than the above is that concerns about student learning become quite secondary to "How do I ensure that I get enough courses to teach to justify staying employed?" when it comes to curriculum design at small, struggling institutions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 19, 2020, 08:29:47 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 19, 2020, 05:56:49 AM

Students flat out stated that they would rather be short on credits for a semester at only 12 credits and take general education courses at their local community colleges in the summer to transfer back over signing up for classes that the humanities faculty wanted to teach and students did not want to take.  Even when we pointed out the extra cost, the students stated the extra cost of a few hundred bucks was worth it for classes they could see possible benefit in taking.

TreadLife jumped the shark.  That's how one knows hu's a troll.

Polly, are you on water-skis too?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on April 19, 2020, 11:56:33 AM
Polly,

Does SD still exist? From what you say, it seems like it should have been gone several years ago at best, around the time you left, but if somehow they survived, how did they manage that?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on April 19, 2020, 12:08:53 PM
I'm far from a troll my friend, but that would save you the effort of actually acknowledging that I have points to make. If you are going to call me a troll, it is Associate Troll to you, and soon to be going up for Full Troll in the fall.  I am a troll who joined academia in 2009 and has watched heads stay firmly in sands at my institution, and on this board, for the past 10 years while the same anti-change voices have dominated the airspace, much like you do here. I'm actually having flashbacks to my faculty meetings with Professor Blowhard and his colleague Professor Blowharder parroting the same anti-change points. Coincidentally (or not) they are humanities professors as well.

At smaller schools (2,000 or fewer), there is a real issue with filling teaching loads due to canceled courses. It is both a self-serving problem and a reflection of the underlying problem.  Why innovate if you can get paid to do nothing, and why should you innovate your coursework, because clearly the problem lies with student and not the fact that you are offering uninspiring and stale courses that no one wants.  Sure, the solution is to be innovative and find a spin between what you do and what students are interested in. If you can spin anything towards inequality or public health that is generally a win on my campus. But that requires work, retooling, and reflection. And at Entitled U, that isn't happening at nearly the pace it should be.  And you would think that faculty would want to try and innovate, for their own job security and the financial security of the institution, but it isn't happening. Again, the scale of the school might matter, because this problem is inescapable at a Small Dinky type places.  But then again, if Wahoo doesn't work at a place like that, then it must not be happening anywhere.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on April 19, 2020, 12:40:37 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 18, 2020, 08:35:50 PM
I'm baffled by the idea that if profs teach courses that don't enroll well, then they have no other options. Of course they have other options, or at least other directives. They develop new courses that enroll better. Maybe their whole field is shrinking, as is the case with modern languages, in which case their department doesn't replace people when they leave or retire.  But the profs keep on teaching. If Italian 101 doesn't enroll enough, the Italian profs offer "Literary Odysseys and Homecomings," Food as Language in Italian Literature," " On Love and Violence: Studying Family," and "Horror, Italian Style," all of which fulfill the university Reading & Composition requirement and thus attract students from outside Italian.  (These are all offerings of the UC Berkeley Italian Department.)  I think TreadingLife must not be in academia, because this is very obvious to academics.

Approximately how big is the institution that you work at, because at Entitled U, the faculty don't innovate, and we are around 2000 students. Students don't want their core classes or their derivative classes. This is partly a reflection of teaching in a field that students are not interested in, regardless of the spin, and partly a reflection of being the type of professor that doesn't want to put in the effort to find the spin or the angle necessary to meet student interest, and to provide them the same core content in a more "palatable" form.   And from a retention standpoint, the worst thing you can do is throw such faculty into first-year programming courses where they are forced to teach a class they don't want to a population that will form expectations about the entire campus based on the quality of their classes from the fall semester.  But the alternative is that you pay faculty to knit or whittle whale bone in their offices at full pay. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on April 19, 2020, 12:49:03 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 19, 2020, 07:13:32 AM
Well, as far as the developing debate about professors who don't care about student learning in these barely populated courses that are provided to give the professor a semblance of a workload, it's easily explained this way. The professors involved may very well hope that the students will learn, but that's no guarantee that they do. Not by a longshot.
The whole thing could be solved by having a system where part-time to full time conversion is a two way street. Demand for what Professor Darned Socks does is on the decrease? Make him part time again. like a small business would do. You know, those enterprises where management has to figure out how to make the business efficient and trim enough to function, instead of pleading for more dollars from the state?

Aren't there "rock solid provisions" that would prevent taking a tenured faculty member and making them part time or full time depending on the needs of the institution?  Sure, you can do this with faculty on term contracts or adjuncts, but this problem lurks in the ranks of the tenured and tenure track faculty in under-enrolled majors where those other cuts have already been made, or didn't need to be made because they never needed adjuncts in the first place.  And if we are going to sit around wait for people to retire, then many institutions just don't have that time to give, and they will fold. I can't find the stat, but how many colleges and universities have enrollments under 2000 FTE? 300? 400? 500?  I did read somewhere that 40% of colleges and universities are under 1000 FTE. While that is dinky, that's clearly not the majority of institutions. But there are a lot of schools in that smaller, razor's edge situation regarding finances.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 19, 2020, 01:30:57 PM
Quote from: spork on April 19, 2020, 02:43:05 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 18, 2020, 08:35:50 PM
I'm baffled by the idea that if profs teach courses that don't enroll well, then they have no other options. Of course they have other options, or at least other directives. They develop new courses that enroll better. Maybe their whole field is shrinking, as is the case with modern languages, in which case their department doesn't replace people when they leave or retire.  But the profs keep on teaching. If Italian 101 doesn't enroll enough, the Italian profs offer "Literary Odysseys and Homecomings," Food as Language in Italian Literature," " On Love and Violence: Studying Family," and "Horror, Italian Style," all of which fulfill the university Reading & Composition requirement and thus attract students from outside Italian.  (These are all offerings of the UC Berkeley Italian Department.)  I think TreadingLife must not be in academia, because this is very obvious to academics.

I see what TreadingLife describes all the time. Here it's what we call general education requirements -- ensure that each faculty member in departments without majors gets just enough students per course to meet minimum enrollment requirements. The system is designed to force students to take courses they don't want on made-up topics they have no interest in, so that Dr. Socks Darning can get paid for their 32nd year of ineffective, below-average teaching. Then you get some faculty members teaching a few dozen students per academic year while others are teaching close to two hundred (and we don't have grad student teaching assistants). But hey, the system can't be changed, no matter the financial ramifications to the organization or the educational quality for the students.


A variation on this is to have terribly unpopular (but tenured) professors teach only graduate courses or senior undergraduate courses in the major; i.e. where there is a captive audience. Since students will mutiny if they can and avoid elective courses taught by them, it means they get rewarded with small classes, and perhaps even in their research area, as opposed to others who have to teach huge enrollment junior courses.

And of course this is a way to try and seduce people into a major or minor by letting students see good teachers up front, so it's only once they're committed that they realize what they have to put up with to finish.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on April 19, 2020, 01:59:29 PM
Yup, we do this!  There really is no alternative. You can try other things, and maybe they'll work, but if you didn't fire a tenured faculty member when you had the chance 6 or 7 years in, its extremely difficult to do so later. You can talk and talk about depriving the person of full, or failing post-tenure reviews that have no teeth, but ultimately the person stays or is convinced to retire a couple of years earlier than they would have normally.

In any case, left with no alternatives for poor teachers or otherwise unpopular ones, you put them where they can do the least damage.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 19, 2020, 02:12:59 PM
TreadingLife's comments upthread mirror my experience to a T.

One of the answers to "How did we get here?" (to borrow from the Talking Heads) is the historical practice at these small institutions of refilling faculty lines with exact replicas of the people who did retire/die/go elsewhere without any kind of analysis of needs and resources. Dr. Socks Darning, whose dissertation was on Philosophy of Pasta in the Upper Tuscany in the Late Middle Roman Era, and whose 30+ year career has been devoted to making damn sure that Italian pasta philosophy is included in the gen ed requirements, was initially hired as the replacement for Dr. Mender Woolens, who was slightly more conservative in outlook than Dr. Socks Darning, but who specialized in the cognate field of Philosophy of Yeast Breads in Early Middle Roman Era Lower Tuscany. Sixty-five years ago Dr. Woolens argued that it was essential for every college student to learn about carbohydrate ethics of the Roman Empire, just as Dr. Darning does today.

This is what drives curriculum design at my employer.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 19, 2020, 02:37:41 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 19, 2020, 01:59:29 PM
Yup, we do this!  There really is no alternative. You can try other things, and maybe they'll work, but if you didn't fire a tenured faculty member when you had the chance 6 or 7 years in, its extremely difficult to do so later. You can talk and talk about depriving the person of full, or failing post-tenure reviews that have no teeth, but ultimately the person stays or is convinced to retire a couple of years earlier than they would have normally.

In any case, left with no alternatives for poor teachers or otherwise unpopular ones, you put them where they can do the least damage.

And this can't be pinned on the lack of government funding, or the excessive hiring of adjuncts, or anything like that. It's most directly a negative consequence of "academic freedom".
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 19, 2020, 02:50:29 PM
Our unhappy posters will happy to know that my observations have been exactly the opposite.

Toxic U, our first university after grad school (7K farm kids), eliminated Italian and German; French was off the table before we even got there.  And they quit hiring any literature positions.  They hired exclusively composition instructors and a new comp coordinator, a creative writer, and unsuccessfully tried to hire a professional writing professor (still a very hot field).

Our current D-1AA has hired business writing lecturers, a film professor who teaches virtually anything that needs teaching, an education lecturer, and a greatly overworked linguist who also does secondary education ESL training.   Literature and creative writing, even though there is call for both, are off the table.

I sometimes wonder about the veracity of the commentary here.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: JCu16 on April 19, 2020, 03:49:39 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 19, 2020, 01:30:57 PM

A variation on this is to have terribly unpopular (but tenured) professors teach only graduate courses or senior undergraduate courses in the major; i.e. where there is a captive audience. Since students will mutiny if they can and avoid elective courses taught by them, it means they get rewarded with small classes, and perhaps even in their research area, as opposed to others who have to teach huge enrollment junior courses.

And of course this is a way to try and seduce people into a major or minor by letting students see good teachers up front, so it's only once they're committed that they realize what they have to put up with to finish.

I call bingo, a program in my department has one of those - they bait you in with the good teachers, and bingo, that person who makes it hell then takes over. Department has to bend over backwards just to get this person to a load including offering some pretty BS classes.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: quasihumanist on April 19, 2020, 03:55:58 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 19, 2020, 02:50:29 PM
Our unhappy posters will happy to know that my observations have been exactly the opposite.

Toxic U, our first university after grad school (7K farm kids), eliminated Italian and German; French was off the table before we even got there.  And they quit hiring any literature positions.  They hired exclusively composition instructors and a new comp coordinator, a creative writer, and unsuccessfully tried to hire a professional writing professor (still a very hot field).

Our current D-1AA has hired business writing lecturers, a film professor who teaches virtually anything that needs teaching, an education lecturer, and a greatly overworked linguist who also does secondary education ESL training.   Literature and creative writing, even though there is call for both, are off the table.

I sometimes wonder about the veracity of the commentary here.

Do you have much of a population that is really prepared to study literature?  That wouldn't just get completely lost if they had to understand and apply bits of theory?

I'm a pure mathematician.  We have less than one graduating senior a year who would have a chance of succeeding at a mediocre (or sometimes better) PhD program if that's what they wanted to do.  Most of our other students never really get it, because after a couple years of trying it still takes them two minutes to process the difference between "Not all swans are white" and "All swans are not white"
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on April 19, 2020, 03:56:28 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 19, 2020, 02:37:41 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 19, 2020, 01:59:29 PM
Yup, we do this!  There really is no alternative. You can try other things, and maybe they'll work, but if you didn't fire a tenured faculty member when you had the chance 6 or 7 years in, its extremely difficult to do so later. You can talk and talk about depriving the person of full, or failing post-tenure reviews that have no teeth, but ultimately the person stays or is convinced to retire a couple of years earlier than they would have normally.

In any case, left with no alternatives for poor teachers or otherwise unpopular ones, you put them where they can do the least damage.

And this can't be pinned on the lack of government funding, or the excessive hiring of adjuncts, or anything like that. It's most directly a negative consequence of "academic freedom".

Academic freedom does not protect poor teaching or bad behavior. It protects controversial research and recognition of faculty as being experts in their disciplines.

Some colleges do a good job of maintaining high faculty standards even after tenure. Some do not. That college needs to have an ethical administration with a backbone, combined with good faculty willing to hold their peers to high standards. 

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on April 19, 2020, 04:39:09 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 19, 2020, 02:37:41 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 19, 2020, 01:59:29 PM
Yup, we do this!  There really is no alternative. You can try other things, and maybe they'll work, but if you didn't fire a tenured faculty member when you had the chance 6 or 7 years in, its extremely difficult to do so later. You can talk and talk about depriving the person of full, or failing post-tenure reviews that have no teeth, but ultimately the person stays or is convinced to retire a couple of years earlier than they would have normally.

In any case, left with no alternatives for poor teachers or otherwise unpopular ones, you put them where they can do the least damage.

And this can't be pinned on the lack of government funding, or the excessive hiring of adjuncts, or anything like that. It's most directly a negative consequence of "academic freedom".

Understating your case: sometimes it is the availability of adjuncts who stay concerned about their relationship with students that saves the student from a schedule with mostly unpopular teachers. Ones who can afford to be.

Quote from: TreadingLife on April 19, 2020, 12:49:03 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 19, 2020, 07:13:32 AM
Well, as far as the developing debate about professors who don't care about student learning in these barely populated courses that are provided to give the professor a semblance of a workload, it's easily explained this way. The professors involved may very well hope that the students will learn, but that's no guarantee that they do. Not by a longshot.
The whole thing could be solved by having a system where part-time to full time conversion is a two way street. Demand for what Professor Darned Socks does is on the decrease? Make him part time again. like a small business would do. You know, those enterprises where management has to figure out how to make the business efficient and trim enough to function, instead of pleading for more dollars from the state?

Aren't there "rock solid provisions" that would prevent taking a tenured faculty member and making them part time or full time depending on the needs of the institution?  Sure, you can do this with faculty on term contracts or adjuncts, but this problem lurks in the ranks of the tenured and tenure track faculty in under-enrolled majors where those other cuts have already been made, or didn't need to be made because they never needed adjuncts in the first place.  And if we are going to sit around wait for people to retire, then many institutions just don't have that time to give, and they will fold. I can't find the stat, but how many colleges and universities have enrollments under 2000 FTE? 300? 400? 500?  I did read somewhere that 40% of colleges and universities are under 1000 FTE. While that is dinky, that's clearly not the majority of institutions. But there are a lot of schools in that smaller, razor's edge situation regarding finances.

[cards on the table]  I've never been a big fan of academic tenure. And over a period of many years, steadily less of a fan.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on April 19, 2020, 05:52:17 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 19, 2020, 02:50:29 PM
Our unhappy posters will happy to know that my observations have been exactly the opposite.

Toxic U, our first university after grad school (7K farm kids), eliminated Italian and German; French was off the table before we even got there.  And they quit hiring any literature positions.  They hired exclusively composition instructors and a new comp coordinator, a creative writer, and unsuccessfully tried to hire a professional writing professor (still a very hot field).

Our current D-1AA has hired business writing lecturers, a film professor who teaches virtually anything that needs teaching, an education lecturer, and a greatly overworked linguist who also does secondary education ESL training.   Literature and creative writing, even though there is call for both, are off the table.

I sometimes wonder about the veracity of the commentary here.

The title of this thread is "Colleges in Dire Financial Straits" and it sounds like you don't work at one. You are very fortunate. Not all of us are. So for those of us who have been, currently are, or worried that we might soon be working at a college in dire financial straits, we are commenting on what we see happening and for me, I'm wondering out loud what other people are seeing happening or not happening at their respective schools. Sadly a number of us are seeing the same things. That's simultaneously comforting and terrifying. But just because you don't see it happening on your side of the tracks doesn't make it untrue, nor does it make us unhappy people. We're simply reporting what we see. Am I happy to see a decline in higher ed? No. Am I happy that the career stability I thought I would have was an illusion? No. Never did I think I would wait with bated breath to see if the college would be handing out a paltry cost of living adjustment. Never did I think I would worry about retention rates and shifting demographic trends as a professor. All I thought I had to worry about was being the best teacher and scholar that I could be, getting tenure and then getting promoted to full professor. I didn't think I'd have to worry about the financial viability of my institution or of the entire sector.  So yeah, I guess that can make me sound or seem unhappy. But that seems like a pretty reasonable reaction from someone who loves their job and is terrified it might disappear. And its not like the grass is much greener at other institutions if I wanted to move around in higher ed. Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.  I am at least aware of the steps my institution has taken to put itself in the best position possible. I can't say the same for other institutions that might still have their heads in the sand. Will what we have done be enough? Who knows. But at least I know my institution has tried to roll up its sleeves, despite the kicking and screaming of others, which is the infuriating part for me. Can't they see the writing on the wall? How can they not care? This directly affects them and yet it is easier to resist than evolve. It is one thing for programs and faculty to refuse to change, which leads them into non-existence when the right-sizing train comes around. It is another thing when the resistance to change means the entire institution is at risk. I believe in my abilities to stay afloat at my institution if interest in my subject area were to wane, because I would find new ways to stay relevant and also because I am interdisciplinary and I love to teach, even if it isn't directly in my content area. But the ability my institution to stay afloat is what keeps me up at night.

When you see news like this at bigger institutions than my own, it makes you shake your head and wonder what might be coming down the pike.

Quinnipiac had a massive enrollment miss in 2019 that is only being exacerbated with the COVID shut down.
The university fell short of its enrollment goal by 570 students for the 2019-20 school year.  In 2018 they enrolled 1,895 first-year students. If their enrollment goal in 2019 was similar to 2018, then they missed their enrollment target by 30%. I have no idea what their net tuition revenue is, but that's easily a 12 mil hit in 2019 that will continue to affect their NTR for the duration of that cohort.

https://quchronicle.com/69949/news/quinnipiac-finances-hit-hard-by-covid-19/

Also Valparaiso
https://www.nwitimes.com/news/valparaiso-university-furloughs-200-employees-president-to-take-30-pay-cut-in-covid-19-reductions/article_38544283-26d4-53b6-a7ef-3a4314fc5b21.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on April 19, 2020, 06:00:31 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 19, 2020, 03:56:28 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 19, 2020, 02:37:41 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 19, 2020, 01:59:29 PM
Yup, we do this!  There really is no alternative. You can try other things, and maybe they'll work, but if you didn't fire a tenured faculty member when you had the chance 6 or 7 years in, its extremely difficult to do so later. You can talk and talk about depriving the person of full, or failing post-tenure reviews that have no teeth, but ultimately the person stays or is convinced to retire a couple of years earlier than they would have normally.

In any case, left with no alternatives for poor teachers or otherwise unpopular ones, you put them where they can do the least damage.

And this can't be pinned on the lack of government funding, or the excessive hiring of adjuncts, or anything like that. It's most directly a negative consequence of "academic freedom".

Academic freedom does not protect poor teaching or bad behavior. It protects controversial research and recognition of faculty as being experts in their disciplines.

In theory, yes. In reality? Today, you can easily be an expert in your discipline, widely employed in higher education, with no access to academic freedom protection, and not even a real welcome.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 19, 2020, 06:06:01 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 19, 2020, 03:56:28 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 19, 2020, 02:37:41 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 19, 2020, 01:59:29 PM
Yup, we do this!  There really is no alternative. You can try other things, and maybe they'll work, but if you didn't fire a tenured faculty member when you had the chance 6 or 7 years in, its extremely difficult to do so later. You can talk and talk about depriving the person of full, or failing post-tenure reviews that have no teeth, but ultimately the person stays or is convinced to retire a couple of years earlier than they would have normally.

In any case, left with no alternatives for poor teachers or otherwise unpopular ones, you put them where they can do the least damage.

And this can't be pinned on the lack of government funding, or the excessive hiring of adjuncts, or anything like that. It's most directly a negative consequence of "academic freedom".

Academic freedom does not protect poor teaching or bad behavior. It protects controversial research and recognition of faculty as being experts in their disciplines.

Some colleges do a good job of maintaining high faculty standards even after tenure. Some do not. That college needs to have an ethical administration with a backbone, combined with good faculty willing to hold their peers to high standards.

The point is that when people talk about trying to drum up public support for higher education, these problems that are common (now two other people on this thread have acknowledged experiences like mine) and that have nothing to do with funding issues undermine that effort. Problems that would be dealt with in a normal workplace can go unresolved in higher ed. and so ordinary people, who are not academics themselves, will not understand or sympathize with this apparent bad management.

Bailouts of industries that seem to have problems of their own making aren't popular with taxpayers, who are footing the bill.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on April 19, 2020, 07:33:56 PM
I see that St. Olaf has extended its deadline for undergraduate admission this year. I don't know how common that is. If, as I suspect, that means St. Olaf is short on qualified admits, I'm sorry, because I've always heard good things about the place.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 20, 2020, 03:26:27 AM
More info on possible state university closures in Vermont, courtesy of the VTDigger:

https://vtdigger.org/2020/04/17/vermont-state-colleges-chancellor-to-recommend-closing-three-campuses/ (https://vtdigger.org/2020/04/17/vermont-state-colleges-chancellor-to-recommend-closing-three-campuses/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on April 20, 2020, 06:44:29 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 19, 2020, 03:56:28 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 19, 2020, 02:37:41 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 19, 2020, 01:59:29 PM
Yup, we do this!  There really is no alternative. You can try other things, and maybe they'll work, but if you didn't fire a tenured faculty member when you had the chance 6 or 7 years in, its extremely difficult to do so later. You can talk and talk about depriving the person of full, or failing post-tenure reviews that have no teeth, but ultimately the person stays or is convinced to retire a couple of years earlier than they would have normally.

In any case, left with no alternatives for poor teachers or otherwise unpopular ones, you put them where they can do the least damage.

And this can't be pinned on the lack of government funding, or the excessive hiring of adjuncts, or anything like that. It's most directly a negative consequence of "academic freedom".

Academic freedom does not protect poor teaching or bad behavior. It protects controversial research and recognition of faculty as being experts in their disciplines.

Some colleges do a good job of maintaining high faculty standards even after tenure. Some do not. That college needs to have an ethical administration with a backbone, combined with good faculty willing to hold their peers to high standards.

Yes to the bolded.  A thousand times yes.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 20, 2020, 06:49:59 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on April 20, 2020, 06:44:29 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 19, 2020, 03:56:28 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 19, 2020, 02:37:41 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 19, 2020, 01:59:29 PM
Yup, we do this!  There really is no alternative. You can try other things, and maybe they'll work, but if you didn't fire a tenured faculty member when you had the chance 6 or 7 years in, its extremely difficult to do so later. You can talk and talk about depriving the person of full, or failing post-tenure reviews that have no teeth, but ultimately the person stays or is convinced to retire a couple of years earlier than they would have normally.

In any case, left with no alternatives for poor teachers or otherwise unpopular ones, you put them where they can do the least damage.

And this can't be pinned on the lack of government funding, or the excessive hiring of adjuncts, or anything like that. It's most directly a negative consequence of "academic freedom".

Academic freedom does not protect poor teaching or bad behavior. It protects controversial research and recognition of faculty as being experts in their disciplines.

Some colleges do a good job of maintaining high faculty standards even after tenure. Some do not. That college needs to have an ethical administration with a backbone, combined with good faculty willing to hold their peers to high standards.

Yes to the bolded.  A thousand times yes.

So is this fixable? Or should institutions that have this problem and are struggling financially be allowed to crash and burn so the resources can be beter used supporting the places that don't?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on April 20, 2020, 06:54:35 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 19, 2020, 03:56:28 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 19, 2020, 02:37:41 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 19, 2020, 01:59:29 PM
Yup, we do this!  There really is no alternative. You can try other things, and maybe they'll work, but if you didn't fire a tenured faculty member when you had the chance 6 or 7 years in, its extremely difficult to do so later. You can talk and talk about depriving the person of full, or failing post-tenure reviews that have no teeth, but ultimately the person stays or is convinced to retire a couple of years earlier than they would have normally.

In any case, left with no alternatives for poor teachers or otherwise unpopular ones, you put them where they can do the least damage.

And this can't be pinned on the lack of government funding, or the excessive hiring of adjuncts, or anything like that. It's most directly a negative consequence of "academic freedom".

Academic freedom does not protect poor teaching or bad behavior. It protects controversial research and recognition of faculty as being experts in their disciplines.

Some colleges do a good job of maintaining high faculty standards even after tenure. Some do not. That college needs to have an ethical administration with a backbone, combined with good faculty willing to hold their peers to high standards.

This is correct. The confusion is caused by a combination of the correlation of tenure and institutional politics (tenure for many years means you've got power), lack of explicit performance requirements, short-lived administrators, administrators not having enough incentive to take on the necessary work, and the fact that it's a small share of all faculty. It really doesn't have anything to do with academic freedom.

Another confusion is that it's a binary thing, where you fire someone or don't do anything about it. That's not true at all. You can (and many places do) punish faculty for poor performance. Even if you keep your job, it's not enjoyable to see others getting raises and promotions year after year while you get nothing. It's no fun being disrespected by your colleagues and students. If you're a low performer and you still get promoted, still get raises, and are respected by you colleagues and students, it's a culture problem.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on April 20, 2020, 06:57:55 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 20, 2020, 06:49:59 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on April 20, 2020, 06:44:29 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 19, 2020, 03:56:28 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 19, 2020, 02:37:41 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 19, 2020, 01:59:29 PM
Yup, we do this!  There really is no alternative. You can try other things, and maybe they'll work, but if you didn't fire a tenured faculty member when you had the chance 6 or 7 years in, its extremely difficult to do so later. You can talk and talk about depriving the person of full, or failing post-tenure reviews that have no teeth, but ultimately the person stays or is convinced to retire a couple of years earlier than they would have normally.

In any case, left with no alternatives for poor teachers or otherwise unpopular ones, you put them where they can do the least damage.

And this can't be pinned on the lack of government funding, or the excessive hiring of adjuncts, or anything like that. It's most directly a negative consequence of "academic freedom".

Academic freedom does not protect poor teaching or bad behavior. It protects controversial research and recognition of faculty as being experts in their disciplines.

Some colleges do a good job of maintaining high faculty standards even after tenure. Some do not. That college needs to have an ethical administration with a backbone, combined with good faculty willing to hold their peers to high standards.

Yes to the bolded.  A thousand times yes.

So is this fixable? Or should institutions that have this problem and are struggling financially be allowed to crash and burn so the resources can be beter used supporting the places that don't?

Honestly, that's a separate issue. Once a university is in crisis mode, anything is possible, including firing of tenured professors. To the extent that it doesn't happen at an institution that's ready to close it's a management issue.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on April 20, 2020, 07:30:48 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 19, 2020, 06:00:31 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 19, 2020, 03:56:28 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 19, 2020, 02:37:41 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 19, 2020, 01:59:29 PM
Yup, we do this!  There really is no alternative. You can try other things, and maybe they'll work, but if you didn't fire a tenured faculty member when you had the chance 6 or 7 years in, its extremely difficult to do so later. You can talk and talk about depriving the person of full, or failing post-tenure reviews that have no teeth, but ultimately the person stays or is convinced to retire a couple of years earlier than they would have normally.

In any case, left with no alternatives for poor teachers or otherwise unpopular ones, you put them where they can do the least damage.

And this can't be pinned on the lack of government funding, or the excessive hiring of adjuncts, or anything like that. It's most directly a negative consequence of "academic freedom".

Academic freedom does not protect poor teaching or bad behavior. It protects controversial research and recognition of faculty as being experts in their disciplines.

In theory, yes. In reality? Today, you can easily be an expert in your discipline, widely employed in higher education, with no access to academic freedom protection, and not even a real welcome.

More on point: academic freedom does indeed protect unpopular teaching when the professor either (1) doesn't care to find out how popular his teaching is, or (2) doesn't consider changing what he is doing though he knows it's not popular.
Whether unpopular teaching is always bad teaching may be a different question. But things like  a chorus of voices on RMP saying 'this professor is extremely hard to make contact with' are pretty indicative. And regular occurrences in my experience. So yes, the awarding of 'academic freedom' protection has pitfalls.

Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 20, 2020, 06:57:55 AM

Honestly, that's a separate issue. Once a university is in crisis mode, anything is possible, including firing of tenured professors. To the extent that it doesn't happen at an institution that's ready to close it's a management issue.
Right , we almost never hear phrases like 'cash-strapped. [end snark]

QuoteSo is this fixable? Or should institutions that have this problem and are struggling financially be allowed to crash and burn so the resources can be beter used supporting the places that don't?


Neither. It should prompt another look at whether the hiring practices including tenure are working out
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on April 20, 2020, 07:55:08 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 20, 2020, 06:54:35 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 19, 2020, 03:56:28 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 19, 2020, 02:37:41 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 19, 2020, 01:59:29 PM
Yup, we do this!  There really is no alternative. You can try other things, and maybe they'll work, but if you didn't fire a tenured faculty member when you had the chance 6 or 7 years in, its extremely difficult to do so later. You can talk and talk about depriving the person of full, or failing post-tenure reviews that have no teeth, but ultimately the person stays or is convinced to retire a couple of years earlier than they would have normally.

In any case, left with no alternatives for poor teachers or otherwise unpopular ones, you put them where they can do the least damage.

And this can't be pinned on the lack of government funding, or the excessive hiring of adjuncts, or anything like that. It's most directly a negative consequence of "academic freedom".

Academic freedom does not protect poor teaching or bad behavior. It protects controversial research and recognition of faculty as being experts in their disciplines.

Some colleges do a good job of maintaining high faculty standards even after tenure. Some do not. That college needs to have an ethical administration with a backbone, combined with good faculty willing to hold their peers to high standards.

This is correct. The confusion is caused by a combination of the correlation of tenure and institutional politics (tenure for many years means you've got power), lack of explicit performance requirements, short-lived administrators, administrators not having enough incentive to take on the necessary work, and the fact that it's a small share of all faculty. It really doesn't have anything to do with academic freedom.


Perhaps their low incentive to take on the necessary work derives from a thought process that taking it easy in the twilight years of one's career is the professor's entitlement. Someone mentioned 'culture' as opposed to the presence of one or two lazy administrators.
What I read sometimes is 'it's too bad that this is going on but it's too late to do anything about it.' Suggesting that the likely result of a lawsuit or a big dustup with the teacher's union would only have been worth the trouble when the  cost/benefit analysis of acting would be more favorable. Which, I guess, could easily suggest that someone wants to be lazy.
But how does this play out? Any suggestion that the ship is going to be run more tightly in the future will provoke the union. And the members are paying the union, (at those salaries, darn good money too) so they want to see it work hard.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 20, 2020, 08:24:14 AM
Thus far my alma mater has not mentioned furloughs or pay cuts.  It has said that it is in the process of refunding over a million dollars in room and board fees.  Reportedly a number of students/families of students are declining to accept refunds as a way of helping the college out in a tough time.  I would guess the number of students doing that isn't all that great.  It's still a nice gesture of support.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 08:53:58 AM
That's pretty heartwarming, apl68, even if it is only a few students.  We are one of the *lucky* colleges in that we are a commuter campus with only a few, mostly international students living on campus. 

In regards to the awful-old-professor-who-should-be-fired-but-the-admin-lacks-an-ethical-compass / teeth: a while ago I started a tread in which I asked people where they had worked other than academia because of just these sorts of declarations about lifestyle / personnel / working conditions etc. 

Every place I have ever worked, or everyplace I have ever known anybody to work, has had an employee, often high up the food chain, who frustrates everyone because of incompetence, laziness, attitude, etc.   

Every place I have ever worked, or everyplace I have ever known anybody to work, has an entrenched culture and entrenched procedures and protocols that the younger set disapproves of for some reason.

This is not to say that awful-old-professor should not be fired (we still have ex-colleagues at University of Toxicity where we worked before who we make fun of now, and our current commuter school currently has a ghost professor who haunts the building from time to time) but that such scenarios are eminently human. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on April 20, 2020, 09:00:31 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 08:53:58 AM
That's pretty heartwarming, apl68, even if it is only a few students.  We are one of the *lucky* colleges in that we are a commuter campus with only a few, mostly international students living on campus. 

In regards to the awful-old-professor-who-should-be-fired-but-the-admin-lacks-an-ethical-compass / teeth: a while ago I started a tread in which I asked people where they had worked other than academia because of just these sorts of declarations about lifestyle / personnel / working conditions etc. 

Every place I have ever worked, or everyplace I have ever known anybody to work, has had an employee, often high up the food chain, who frustrates everyone because of incompetence, laziness, attitude, etc.   

Every place I have ever worked, or everyplace I have ever known anybody to work, has an entrenched culture and entrenched procedures and protocols that the younger set disapproves of for some reason.

This is not to say that awful-old-professor should not be fired (we still have ex-colleagues at University of Toxicity where we worked before who we make fun of now, and our current commuter school currently has a ghost professor who haunts the building from time to time) but that such scenarios are eminently human.

But higher ed leads the pack in having the segmented workforce in which both teaching and service are valued when you're tenure track while neither is when you're adjunct. And higher ed leads the pack in keeping a cadre of regular employees while declaring them to be outsiders. And leads the pack in the culture where increased successful experience can count against you, heavily for promotion/hiring. And specializes in analysis of how the system works being discounted as bitterness.

I hope no students feel pressured to donate tuition and fees money to their college.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 08:53:58 AM
That's pretty heartwarming, apl68, even if it is only a few students.  We are one of the *lucky* colleges in that we are a commuter campus with only a few, mostly international students living on campus. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 20, 2020, 09:33:04 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 08:53:58 AM
This is not to say that awful-old-professor should not be fired (we still have ex-colleagues at University of Toxicity where we worked before who we make fun of now, and our current commuter school currently has a ghost professor who haunts the building from time to time) but that such scenarios are eminently human.

But these stories are highly detrimental to drumming up public support for higher education. When you're trying to argue about how important higher education is, it's not going to be good if you seem to shrug off bad teaching as "no big deal; it happens everywhere". To the general public, people who are bad at their jobs deserve to be fired. If tenure seems like a "get out of jail free" card for bad teaching, don't be surprised if voters aren't anxious to increase funding.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on April 20, 2020, 10:19:36 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 20, 2020, 09:33:04 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 08:53:58 AM
This is not to say that awful-old-professor should not be fired (we still have ex-colleagues at University of Toxicity where we worked before who we make fun of now, and our current commuter school currently has a ghost professor who haunts the building from time to time) but that such scenarios are eminently human.

But these stories are highly detrimental to drumming up public support for higher education. When you're trying to argue about how important higher education is, it's not going to be good if you seem to shrug off bad teaching as "no big deal; it happens everywhere". To the general public, people who are bad at their jobs deserve to be fired. If tenure seems like a "get out of jail free" card for bad teaching, don't be surprised if voters aren't anxious to increase funding.

Not to mention the promotion of the creative theory of college faculty who arrive for work every Monday morning with all of the usual employee needs e.g. a living wage, benefits, health insurance having been taken care of externally. Prompting the reader to conclude 'then why shouldn't the savings be passed on to us?'
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 11:54:01 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 20, 2020, 09:00:31 AM
But higher ed leads the pack in having the segmented workforce in which both teaching and service are valued when you're tenure track while neither is when you're adjunct. And higher ed leads the pack in keeping a cadre of regular employees while declaring them to be outsiders. And leads the pack in the culture where increased successful experience can count against you, heavily for promotion/hiring. And specializes in analysis of how the system works being discounted as bitterness.


Agreed.  At least to the extend that we know about it----I've never seen numbers on temp workers in large corporations.  My ex-brother-in-law moved his family to Seattle for a temporary job at Microsoft in the hopes of being actually hired, only to be let go after 6 months.  I've never looked into the lives of temp workers in industry and what they expect from their jobs; I suspect that most get "valuable experience" which translates into something better eventually----generally not so with the academic temp worker.

But I totally with you that we need to end the adjunct death march.  Said so many times, in fact.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 20, 2020, 09:33:04 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 08:53:58 AM
This is not to say that awful-old-professor should not be fired (we still have ex-colleagues at University of Toxicity where we worked before who we make fun of now, and our current commuter school currently has a ghost professor who haunts the building from time to time) but that such scenarios are eminently human.

But these stories are highly detrimental to drumming up public support for higher education. When you're trying to argue about how important higher education is, it's not going to be good if you seem to shrug off bad teaching as "no big deal; it happens everywhere". To the general public, people who are bad at their jobs deserve to be fired. If tenure seems like a "get out of jail free" card for bad teaching, don't be surprised if voters aren't anxious to increase funding.

Gosh you're smart, Marshy.  Never thought of that.

I think we can bring the argument that these folks are the minority of faculty and that overall academia represents a communal good.

And yeah, it does happen everywhere.  Reasonable people know that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: LibbyG on April 20, 2020, 11:59:39 AM
https://vtdigger.org/2020/04/19/top-lawmakers-scott-urge-state-colleges-to-press-pause-on-closures/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on April 20, 2020, 12:14:39 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 20, 2020, 09:33:04 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 08:53:58 AM
This is not to say that awful-old-professor should not be fired (we still have ex-colleagues at University of Toxicity where we worked before who we make fun of now, and our current commuter school currently has a ghost professor who haunts the building from time to time) but that such scenarios are eminently human.

But these stories are highly detrimental to drumming up public support for higher education. When you're trying to argue about how important higher education is, it's not going to be good if you seem to shrug off bad teaching as "no big deal; it happens everywhere". To the general public, people who are bad at their jobs deserve to be fired. If tenure seems like a "get out of jail free" card for bad teaching, don't be surprised if voters aren't anxious to increase funding.

Gosh you're smart, Marshy.  Never thought of that.

I think we can bring the argument that these folks are the minority of faculty and that overall academia represents a communal good.

And yeah, it does happen everywhere.  Reasonable people know that.

The conclusion should be 'why put more of your money into a den of thieves?' just because they demonstrate a claim to having been underfunded by some self-validated measurement.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 12:36:58 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 20, 2020, 12:14:39 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 20, 2020, 09:33:04 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 08:53:58 AM
This is not to say that awful-old-professor should not be fired (we still have ex-colleagues at University of Toxicity where we worked before who we make fun of now, and our current commuter school currently has a ghost professor who haunts the building from time to time) but that such scenarios are eminently human.

But these stories are highly detrimental to drumming up public support for higher education. When you're trying to argue about how important higher education is, it's not going to be good if you seem to shrug off bad teaching as "no big deal; it happens everywhere". To the general public, people who are bad at their jobs deserve to be fired. If tenure seems like a "get out of jail free" card for bad teaching, don't be surprised if voters aren't anxious to increase funding.

Gosh you're smart, Marshy.  Never thought of that.

I think we can bring the argument that these folks are the minority of faculty and that overall academia represents a communal good.

And yeah, it does happen everywhere.  Reasonable people know that.

The conclusion should be 'why put more of your money into a den of thieves?' just because they demonstrate a claim to having been underfunded by some self-validated measurement.

I personally don't know any thieves. 

I sure would like to see us save our teachers and colleges, however.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on April 20, 2020, 01:07:36 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 12:36:58 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 20, 2020, 12:14:39 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 20, 2020, 09:33:04 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 08:53:58 AM
This is not to say that awful-old-professor should not be fired (we still have ex-colleagues at University of Toxicity where we worked before who we make fun of now, and our current commuter school currently has a ghost professor who haunts the building from time to time) but that such scenarios are eminently human.

But these stories are highly detrimental to drumming up public support for higher education. When you're trying to argue about how important higher education is, it's not going to be good if you seem to shrug off bad teaching as "no big deal; it happens everywhere". To the general public, people who are bad at their jobs deserve to be fired. If tenure seems like a "get out of jail free" card for bad teaching, don't be surprised if voters aren't anxious to increase funding.

Gosh you're smart, Marshy.  Never thought of that.

I think we can bring the argument that these folks are the minority of faculty and that overall academia represents a communal good.

And yeah, it does happen everywhere.  Reasonable people know that.

The conclusion should be 'why put more of your money into a den of thieves?' just because they demonstrate a claim to having been underfunded by some self-validated measurement.

I personally don't know any thieves. 

I sure would like to see us save our teachers and colleges, however.

Gypsies? Tramps?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 01:11:53 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 20, 2020, 01:07:36 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 12:36:58 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 20, 2020, 12:14:39 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 20, 2020, 09:33:04 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 08:53:58 AM
This is not to say that awful-old-professor should not be fired (we still have ex-colleagues at University of Toxicity where we worked before who we make fun of now, and our current commuter school currently has a ghost professor who haunts the building from time to time) but that such scenarios are eminently human.

But these stories are highly detrimental to drumming up public support for higher education. When you're trying to argue about how important higher education is, it's not going to be good if you seem to shrug off bad teaching as "no big deal; it happens everywhere". To the general public, people who are bad at their jobs deserve to be fired. If tenure seems like a "get out of jail free" card for bad teaching, don't be surprised if voters aren't anxious to increase funding.

Gosh you're smart, Marshy.  Never thought of that.

I think we can bring the argument that these folks are the minority of faculty and that overall academia represents a communal good.

And yeah, it does happen everywhere.  Reasonable people know that.

The conclusion should be 'why put more of your money into a den of thieves?' just because they demonstrate a claim to having been underfunded by some self-validated measurement.

I personally don't know any thieves. 

I sure would like to see us save our teachers and colleges, however.

Gypsies? Tramps?

None that look like Cher. 

One that looked like Sonny.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on April 20, 2020, 01:13:09 PM
QuoteI personally don't know any thieves. 
Right now they're charging me for parking, though I am not allowed on campus.

Any time you're asking for more tax dollars from the taxpayer there will be some conversation about it being coercion.

QuoteI sure would like to see us save our teachers and colleges, however.

Sorry I don't know how. I came late to this thread, and probably don't have the same angst as others about the situation of colleges closing.
I'll let the smart people figure it out.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 20, 2020, 01:49:35 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 20, 2020, 09:33:04 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 08:53:58 AM
This is not to say that awful-old-professor should not be fired (we still have ex-colleagues at University of Toxicity where we worked before who we make fun of now, and our current commuter school currently has a ghost professor who haunts the building from time to time) but that such scenarios are eminently human.

But these stories are highly detrimental to drumming up public support for higher education. When you're trying to argue about how important higher education is, it's not going to be good if you seem to shrug off bad teaching as "no big deal; it happens everywhere". To the general public, people who are bad at their jobs deserve to be fired. If tenure seems like a "get out of jail free" card for bad teaching, don't be surprised if voters aren't anxious to increase funding.

Gosh you're smart, Marshy.  Never thought of that.

I think we can bring the argument that these folks are the minority of faculty and that overall academia represents a communal good.

And yeah, it does happen everywhere.  Reasonable people know that.


And it never potentially influences giving patterns by alumni (who had profs like that)  or parents of current students (who have profs like that) so it's nothing to worry about. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 20, 2020, 02:24:41 PM
I don't know if this qualifies as thievery, but I know faculty members who have constructed curricular requirements so that they can regularly teach overloads and thereby earn enough money to pay their children's private school tuition, etc. Another example of student learning being far down on the priority list.

As a reminder, I work at a university like the one TreadingLife describes.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 03:57:15 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 20, 2020, 01:49:35 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 20, 2020, 09:33:04 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 08:53:58 AM
This is not to say that awful-old-professor should not be fired (we still have ex-colleagues at University of Toxicity where we worked before who we make fun of now, and our current commuter school currently has a ghost professor who haunts the building from time to time) but that such scenarios are eminently human.

But these stories are highly detrimental to drumming up public support for higher education. When you're trying to argue about how important higher education is, it's not going to be good if you seem to shrug off bad teaching as "no big deal; it happens everywhere". To the general public, people who are bad at their jobs deserve to be fired. If tenure seems like a "get out of jail free" card for bad teaching, don't be surprised if voters aren't anxious to increase funding.

Gosh you're smart, Marshy.  Never thought of that.

I think we can bring the argument that these folks are the minority of faculty and that overall academia represents a communal good.

And yeah, it does happen everywhere.  Reasonable people know that.


And it never potentially influences giving patterns by alumni (who had profs like that)  or parents of current students (who have profs like that) so it's nothing to worry about.

Do you know if the minority of bad faculty influence giving patterns?  Or is this just typical Marshy clueless hyperbolic conjecture?  Do good professors influence giving patterns?  If they do, we are much better off with less adjuncts, I can tell you that much.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 20, 2020, 04:10:15 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 03:57:15 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 20, 2020, 01:49:35 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 20, 2020, 09:33:04 AM
When you're trying to argue about how important higher education is, it's not going to be good if you seem to shrug off bad teaching as "no big deal; it happens everywhere". To the general public, people who are bad at their jobs deserve to be fired. If tenure seems like a "get out of jail free" card for bad teaching, don't be surprised if voters aren't anxious to increase funding.

Gosh you're smart, Marshy.  Never thought of that.

I think we can bring the argument that these folks are the minority of faculty and that overall academia represents a communal good.

And yeah, it does happen everywhere.  Reasonable people know that.


And it never potentially influences giving patterns by alumni (who had profs like that)  or parents of current students (who have profs like that) so it's nothing to worry about.

Do you know if the minority of bad faculty influence giving patterns?  Or is this just typical Marshy clueless hyperbolic conjecture?  Do good professors influence giving patterns?  If they do, we are much better off with less adjuncts, I can tell you that much.

Why wouldn't everything from the food in the cafeteria to the friendliness of the custodial staff affect giving patterns? The better a student's overall experience, the more likely that is to translate into donations, and the worse it is the less likely.

It's not like there's some magic threshhold. Each little problem has an effect, so every one which is ignored has a cost. A bunch of minor issues could cumulatively have a very big impact and so anyone who chooses to overlook them does so at their peril.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on April 20, 2020, 05:06:26 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 03:57:15 PM

Do you know if the minority of bad faculty influence giving patterns?  Or is this just typical Marshy clueless hyperbolic conjecture?  Do good professors influence giving patterns?  If they do, we are much better off with less adjuncts, I can tell you that much.

Politically wise thing to say. Not proven. BTW, it's 'fewer' adjuncts.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 05:26:42 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 20, 2020, 05:06:26 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 03:57:15 PM

Do you know if the minority of bad faculty influence giving patterns?  Or is this just typical Marshy clueless hyperbolic conjecture?  Do good professors influence giving patterns?  If they do, we are much better off with less adjuncts, I can tell you that much.

Politically wise thing to say. Not proven. BTW, it's 'fewer' adjuncts.

"fewer" - of course, much better.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on April 20, 2020, 09:05:32 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 05:26:42 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 20, 2020, 05:06:26 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 03:57:15 PM

Do you know if the minority of bad faculty influence giving patterns?  Or is this just typical Marshy clueless hyperbolic conjecture?  Do good professors influence giving patterns?  If they do, we are much better off with less adjuncts, I can tell you that much.

Politically wise thing to say. Not proven. BTW, it's 'fewer' adjuncts.

"fewer" - of course, much better.

So if some good student says, at graduation (as my daughter did) 'my favorite prof is here. I'd like you to meet him' and he turns out to be a part timer, then we have a problem. It doesn't fit the narrative that the right people, the tenured, want.
This is why I'm not going to beat the drum for more funding. Higher education has problems of its own making. What's missing is a plausible system of linking job performance to career advancement, and the will to make one.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 09:48:39 PM
I don't think these conversations serve any productive purpose and we've hijacked the thread again.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 21, 2020, 05:52:28 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 09:48:39 PM
I don't think these conversations serve any productive purpose and we've hijacked the thread again.

I'm not sure that's true.

Quote from: mahagonny on April 20, 2020, 09:05:32 PM
So if some good student says, at graduation (as my daughter did) 'my favorite prof is here. I'd like you to meet him' and he turns out to be a part timer, then we have a problem.

If this is what happens, especially at a place that is struggling financially, it ought to be cause for concern, considering what it signifies. Specifically:
In other words, all of the "life-of-the-mind, scholarship inspring teaching" etc. of all of the full-time faculty who taught this student did not connect as much as the probably peripheral content delivered by less of an "expert".

In other words, what the institution believes to be its core focus, delivered by its carefully selected and highly qualified experts, did not engage the student as much as something which the "experts" avoided, delivered by someone more extraneous to the institution's mission.

If that doesn't suggest the institution needs to do some soul-searching about why its enrollment is falling, I don't know what would.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on April 21, 2020, 07:02:12 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2020, 05:52:28 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 09:48:39 PM
I don't think these conversations serve any productive purpose and we've hijacked the thread again.

I'm not sure that's true.

Quote from: mahagonny on April 20, 2020, 09:05:32 PM
So if some good student says, at graduation (as my daughter did) 'my favorite prof is here. I'd like you to meet him' and he turns out to be a part timer, then we have a problem.

If this is what happens, especially at a place that is struggling financially, it ought to be cause for concern, considering what it signifies. Specifically:

  • Part-timers often teach courses full-time faculty don't want to teach.
  • Part-timers probably aren't active researchers.
  • Part-timers often don't even have a PhD.
In other words, all of the "life-of-the-mind, scholarship inspring teaching" etc. of all of the full-time faculty who taught this student did not connect as much as the probably peripheral content delivered by less of an "expert".

In other words, what the institution believes to be its core focus, delivered by its carefully selected and highly qualified experts, did not engage the student as much as something which the "experts" avoided, delivered by someone more extraneous to the institution's mission.

If that doesn't suggest the institution needs to do some soul-searching about why its enrollment is falling, I don't know what would.

Just did a little googling. According to US News and World Report the university is pretty healthy and successful and so are its students. By the way, this professor did have the PhD, and was teaching journalism. Now he's associate professor, same uni, digital media design. I bet he would rather have taught journalism.
Wahoo should like this.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: fast_and_bulbous on April 21, 2020, 10:00:34 AM
Urbana University to close permanently, citing pandemic (https://abc6onyourside.com/news/local/urbana-university-to-close-permanently-citing-pandemic)

For those of you at UIUC who read that headline, apologies if your heart skipped a beat.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 21, 2020, 10:23:55 AM
How many colleges does that make so far that have thrown in the towel since the pandemic started?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jonadam on April 21, 2020, 06:47:32 PM
Quote from: apl68 on April 21, 2020, 10:23:55 AM
How many colleges does that make so far that have thrown in the towel since the pandemic started?

Unfortunately, not the last.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 22, 2020, 07:58:32 AM
Can Public College Stave Off Closure? (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/04/22/financial-peril-prompting-calls-close-some-public-college-campuses-systems-can-often) in IHE
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 22, 2020, 08:09:16 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 22, 2020, 07:58:32 AM
Can Public College Stave Off Closure? (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/04/22/financial-peril-prompting-calls-close-some-public-college-campuses-systems-can-often) in IHE

It's kind of weird that in only one place does it comment on a critical issue:
Quote
The Pennsylvania state system struggled financially for years and has yet to reverse declining enrollments across the system.

And society has yet to reverse climate change. No biggie.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on April 22, 2020, 08:15:09 AM
Check out the situation in Pennsylvania. This is an analysis of the Public system, not private schools. Sobering graphs.

https://www.inquirer.com/business/student-debt-pennsylvania-colleges-penn-state-20191127.html

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 22, 2020, 08:43:02 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on April 22, 2020, 08:15:09 AM
Check out the situation in Pennsylvania. This is an analysis of the Public system, not private schools. Sobering graphs.

https://www.inquirer.com/business/student-debt-pennsylvania-colleges-penn-state-20191127.html

This article also buries the lede by only peripherally mentioning
Quote
After years of under-investment, Pennsylvania's tax-supported networks of four-year colleges look like the nation's Rust Belt of higher-education systems — plagued by high costs, a dramatic drop in Pennsylvania students, and a rash of empty dorm rooms.


....

The number of Pennsylvania college-bound high school graduates declined 8 percent over this period.


It would make a whole lot more sense to project how many students there are likely to be over the next couple decades, and what sort of system will serve them best, than to just wail about how expesive the current system is.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 22, 2020, 10:19:45 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2020, 08:43:02 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on April 22, 2020, 08:15:09 AM
Check out the situation in Pennsylvania. This is an analysis of the Public system, not private schools. Sobering graphs.

https://www.inquirer.com/business/student-debt-pennsylvania-colleges-penn-state-20191127.html

This article also buries the lede by only peripherally mentioning
Quote
After years of under-investment, Pennsylvania's tax-supported networks of four-year colleges look like the nation's Rust Belt of higher-education systems — plagued by high costs, a dramatic drop in Pennsylvania students, and a rash of empty dorm rooms.


....

The number of Pennsylvania college-bound high school graduates declined 8 percent over this period.


It would make a whole lot more sense to project how many students there are likely to be over the next couple decades, and what sort of system will serve them best, than to just wail about how expesive the current system is.

Brilliant, Marshy!  Can't believe no one's thought of that before!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 22, 2020, 11:05:55 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on April 22, 2020, 08:15:09 AM
Check out the situation in Pennsylvania. This is an analysis of the Public system, not private schools. Sobering graphs.

https://www.inquirer.com/business/student-debt-pennsylvania-colleges-penn-state-20191127.html

Pennsylvania appears to be an outlier in how drastic their cuts to higher education have been in the last couple of decades.  There's no question that they've GOT to put more money into that system.  Yes, there's been an 8% decline in high school graduates--but the decline in college enrollments has been much steeper.  No doubt some of those students need something other than a four-year degree, but it looks like Pennsylvania's failure to fund its system so that students can at least sort of afford it is ruining a lot of people's chances of getting any higher education. 

All that said--the traditional-student-age population IS down significantly.  And some schools in the system, for whatever reason, have clearly suffered much larger enrollment drops.  Some of them have lost something like half their enrollment!  Even with a much-needed increase in funding, they're going to have to make some hard choices about downsizing and perhaps even closing some campuses.  There's just no way they'll ever realistically get enough money to keep all those campuses going strong.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 22, 2020, 11:55:29 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 22, 2020, 10:19:45 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2020, 08:43:02 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on April 22, 2020, 08:15:09 AM
Check out the situation in Pennsylvania. This is an analysis of the Public system, not private schools. Sobering graphs.

https://www.inquirer.com/business/student-debt-pennsylvania-colleges-penn-state-20191127.html

This article also buries the lede by only peripherally mentioning
Quote
After years of under-investment, Pennsylvania's tax-supported networks of four-year colleges look like the nation's Rust Belt of higher-education systems — plagued by high costs, a dramatic drop in Pennsylvania students, and a rash of empty dorm rooms.


....

The number of Pennsylvania college-bound high school graduates declined 8 percent over this period.


It would make a whole lot more sense to project how many students there are likely to be over the next couple decades, and what sort of system will serve them best, than to just wail about how expesive the current system is.

Brilliant, Marshy!  Can't believe no one's thought of that before!

You know, once in a while you might actually make a rational argument in response to what I say rather than just being snarky. Such as in these articles, why is the demographic shift presented as some sort of minor inconvenience rather than the fundamental issue? Part of the reason money is getting tighter is that there are fewer and fewer students and there is more competition for them. How long do you keep pumping money into a place with declining enrollment? If it gets to zero, but people are still pouring in enough money to keep the lights on, is it a "success"?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on April 22, 2020, 11:56:01 AM
Perhaps lots of students are choosing this fine establishment.

Some joint called "Independence University" has been recently plastering the TV with ads claiming how awesome they are.

They Care About You.

There Are No Hidden Fees.

Coming to Campus is Not a Hassle. They Have Everything Online.

You Can Get Your Degree in Three Years.

You Get a Free Laptop and Tablet Computer When You Graduate.

Man, Independence University is so awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPJOuxtWAwc
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 22, 2020, 01:59:02 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2020, 11:55:29 AM
Part of the reason money is getting tighter is that there are fewer and fewer students and there is more competition for them. How long do you keep pumping money into a place with declining enrollment? If it gets to zero, but people are still pouring in enough money to keep the lights on, is it a "success"?

Part of the reason that MySpace is no longer a successful enterprise is that fewer and fewer people are using it and there is more competition from aps such as Twitter and Facebook.  Apparently I am the first person ever to think of this!

My God, man. 

I mean, for the love of Pete, do you have anything that is truly insightful to say?  Is your world really that simple and primary?

How about this: Education is changing.  Education has always been in flux.  My education was different in many ways from my father's education. 

However, we want to make rational, intelligent decisions.  Change is not always good, and reducing college to a career enterprise goes against what we know about technocracy which itself is ever changing and evolving.  We want people who can think and evolve themselves, not just turn a wrench. 

If we can save colleges for future generations, we should.  Some will inevitably close.  If we can find a reasonable way to save our colleges and employ our people we should. 

We should also try to keep majors afloat if we can.  Some people find the concept of "The Life of the Mind" risible, but the majority of us do not.

I try to skip your posts because you just want to argue, and not very well at that.  Sometimes, as happened this time, I read from the bottom up and don't see the poster's name until I am good and annoyed.

Try not to say the obvious, simplistic thing if you can.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 22, 2020, 02:51:01 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 22, 2020, 01:59:02 PM
If we can save colleges for future generations, we should.  Some will inevitably close.  If we can find a reasonable way to save our colleges and employ our people we should. 

Which ones "will close" depends on the choices made about which ones to save. I would really like to hear what sort of criteria you think should be applied so that those choices can be made most judiciously.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 22, 2020, 03:31:54 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2020, 02:51:01 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 22, 2020, 01:59:02 PM
If we can save colleges for future generations, we should.  Some will inevitably close.  If we can find a reasonable way to save our colleges and employ our people we should. 

Which ones "will close" depends on the choices made about which ones to save. I would really like to hear what sort of criteria you think should be applied so that those choices can be made most judiciously.

I don't know, Marshy.  I can imagine all sorts of scenarios (effect on the local economy; access to alternative education; reputation; the reality of finances and the institution's own plan for viability; competency of school leadership; regional wealth and resources; and most importantly, the will of the people to save any given institution; plus many more I haven't thought of off the top of my head) which would make a difference. 

Just please don't pretend you have some deeper understanding or honest objections. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 23, 2020, 05:33:52 AM
A Tale of 5 Hgih Schools (true story)

A small city has 5 high schools, owing partly to the city being created by amalgamation of smaller cities decades ago. Due to declining enrollments, among other things, all of these schools are relatively small; around 1000 students or less. Teacher salaries are good, and the schools are decently maintained. A while ago, the school board proposed closing one or more schools in order to consolidate. This is for a few reasons:
In addition to having fewer extracurriculars, because of the smaller student pool then the quality tends to be lower as well; a team drawing from 2000 students is likely to be stronger than a team drawing from 1000 students.

Many parents fought the proposal of amalgamation. Some of the high schools students themselves supported it.
Funding is not the problem. The provincial government allocates the same amount per student everywhere, so there aren't "rich" schools and "poor" schools. The board does the same. But the economies of scale cannot be avoided. The cost of a principal and a vice-principal divided among 2000 students is lower than divided among 1000 students. Similarly, the size and amount of mainatenance required for a soccer or football field is the same, whether it's for 1000 students or 2000 students.

In addition to this there are new subdivisions in part of the city, where student numbers are growing, and parents would like a school for their kids, but instead their kids are bused to the other schools to slow the decline there.

There are no villains in this story, but the experience the students have in these smaller schools cannot be what it would be if one or two were closed so they could amalagmate. If none of these schools existed now, the board wouldn't set things up this way.

Hanging on to the status quo means *"preserving" a system which provides an experience for the students that is less than it could be.

Is it worth it?

(*When those schools were created, they fit their communities, so the experience students had then was better. So the experience now is a shadow of what it was, so it's more a case of "preserving" the fantasy of what it was.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on April 23, 2020, 07:37:25 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 22, 2020, 03:31:54 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2020, 02:51:01 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 22, 2020, 01:59:02 PM
If we can save colleges for future generations, we should.  Some will inevitably close.  If we can find a reasonable way to save our colleges and employ our people we should. 

Which ones "will close" depends on the choices made about which ones to save. I would really like to hear what sort of criteria you think should be applied so that those choices can be made most judiciously.

I don't know, Marshy.  I can imagine all sorts of scenarios (effect on the local economy; access to alternative education; reputation; the reality of finances and the institution's own plan for viability; competency of school leadership; regional wealth and resources; and most importantly, the will of the people to save any given institution; plus many more I haven't thought of off the top of my head) which would make a difference. 

Just please don't pretend you have some deeper understanding or honest objections.

In the cases of the public universities I've seen close (only a few, but I've been close enough to observe the decision) these were the major factors:


Schools wanting to avoid closure should be concerned if they check all these boxes. The second is really important. If a smaller school can't argue "But where will we get our [teachers, nurses, ...]? What are we going to do?" they may be in trouble.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 23, 2020, 08:00:18 AM
I've often wondered about the economic impact of a school closing.  Even in a fairly robust area a college closing will not only put a lot of people out of work, but vendors, landlords, and local small business owners would be hit.

Both where we taught in Smallville at Toxic U and where we teach now in the middle of SubUrbanGhettoville would be devastated if their schools closed.

Does anyone know if someone's done a study on this?

What happens to the abandoned campuses?  I know of one in my home state which is simply a home for the raccoons now. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on April 23, 2020, 08:36:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 23, 2020, 08:00:18 AM
I've often wondered about the economic impact of a school closing.  Even in a fairly robust area a college closing will not only put a lot of people out of work, but vendors, landlords, and local small business owners would be hit.

Both where we taught in Smallville at Toxic U and where we teach now in the middle of SubUrbanGhettoville would be devastated if their schools closed.

Does anyone know if someone's done a study on this?

What happens to the abandoned campuses?  I know of one in my home state which is simply a home for the raccoons now.

Our local public community college brings in ~ $200 million per year in State funding. It is paid mostly in salaries and benefits to faculty and staff.

Then there is the multiplier effect of all those people paying mortgages/rent, buying groceries and clothing, going to restaurants, that sort of thing. All the cafes around the college are packed in the morning, and the lunch spots are busy as well. There are a few bars that are frequented by both employees and students. Those employees turn around and spend their wages on rent, groceries, whatever.

There is value in having a college in town. Many of our nurses and health workers in our world-class health system trained at our college, and people come from around the state and country to be treated here. We are a tourist town, and many restaurant and other hospitality workers were trained in our culinary department. Tourists and locals shop in our boutiques started by graduates of our fashion program, or stores staffed by the same graduates. Our galleries are filled with art created by our students, nightclubs enjoy performances by our music students.

Neighbors meet one another by taking a class in a language or philosophy or political science. Employees get promotion opportunities by taking a class in computer science or business. Entrepreneurs take small business classes to write their plans.

So if the college closed, I suppose all those faculty and staff would be unemployed, and the cluster of businesses supported by the college would close. Not sure where the hospitals and hotels would get their employees, or whether tourists would come visit empty galleries and eat chain food.

Where would ambitious employees build their skills if they weren't seeing opportunities at their jobs? How would bright people who enjoy learning get together?



Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 23, 2020, 09:32:34 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on April 22, 2020, 08:15:09 AM
Check out the situation in Pennsylvania. This is an analysis of the Public system, not private schools. Sobering graphs.

https://www.inquirer.com/business/student-debt-pennsylvania-colleges-penn-state-20191127.html

The article makes no mention of the fact that the tuition at PASSHE campuses is so high because these universities need to pay off debt from a really stupid borrowing spree a few years ago:

https://ragingchickenpress.org/2013/10/21/wall-street-on-the-susquehanna-passhe-bond-scheme-bleeds-education-budget-for-beautiful-buildings/ (https://ragingchickenpress.org/2013/10/21/wall-street-on-the-susquehanna-passhe-bond-scheme-bleeds-education-budget-for-beautiful-buildings/) .
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 23, 2020, 10:01:03 AM
If Henderson State University, discussed some above, were to close, it would be a heavy blow to the economy of the town of Arkadelphia.  It's not the ONLY thing they have there, but it's a big chunk.  There's also a similarly-sized religiously-affiliated private college across the street from it that would be a great loss were it to close.  The two schools have several thousand students between them in a town of not quite eleven thousand. 

That's a big part of why I don't expect Henderson to be closed, despite its recent distress.  It's a regional economic driver, it's the only public school in reasonable commuting distance, and, as Tux notes, it supplies teachers and such for the region.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 23, 2020, 01:27:26 PM
What Colleges Do For Local Economies (https://www.brookings.edu/research/what-colleges-do-for-local-economies-a-direct-measure-based-on-consumption/)

2015
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 23, 2020, 01:33:43 PM
Profile of 340 lost colleges (https://www.lostcolleges.com/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 23, 2020, 02:18:56 PM
Quote from: spork on April 23, 2020, 09:32:34 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on April 22, 2020, 08:15:09 AM
Check out the situation in Pennsylvania. This is an analysis of the Public system, not private schools. Sobering graphs.

https://www.inquirer.com/business/student-debt-pennsylvania-colleges-penn-state-20191127.html

The article makes no mention of the fact that the tuition at PASSHE campuses is so high because these universities need to pay off debt from a really stupid borrowing spree a few years ago:

https://ragingchickenpress.org/2013/10/21/wall-street-on-the-susquehanna-passhe-bond-scheme-bleeds-education-budget-for-beautiful-buildings/ (https://ragingchickenpress.org/2013/10/21/wall-street-on-the-susquehanna-passhe-bond-scheme-bleeds-education-budget-for-beautiful-buildings/) .

And if they close one campus, the other campuses take on both the debt and the maintenance cost of the empty physical plant. That's quite a poison pill.
Somebody should do the game theory modeling of PASSHE chancellors' motivations .
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on April 23, 2020, 06:33:00 PM
Quote from: apl68 on April 21, 2020, 10:23:55 AM
How many colleges does that make so far that have thrown in the towel since the pandemic started?

To my knowledge, Urbana Univ was the second SLAC which closed down after the pandemic started.

MacMurray College in IL was the first. It was covered in this thread awhile back:
https://www.sj-r.com/news/20200327/macmurray-college-to-close-after-174-years

Of course, these colleges financial troubles originated long before the pandemic. And sadly there are more SLAC fitting their profile (i.e., low enrollment & endowment, located in rural states where HS population is falling, etc.) who would follow suit.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 24, 2020, 05:01:23 AM
Quote from: picard on April 23, 2020, 06:33:00 PM
Quote from: apl68 on April 21, 2020, 10:23:55 AM
Of course, these colleges financial troubles originated long before the pandemic. And sadly there are more SLAC fitting their profile (i.e., low enrollment & endowment, located in rural states where HS population is falling, etc.) who would follow suit.

A new equilibrium will be achieved as some of these close and the students and resources are redistributed among the stronger ones that remain, which will then be even healthier.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: nonntt on April 24, 2020, 01:15:03 PM
We will soon be hearing about dire financial straits at public universities in states with formerly significant oil revenues. My department just lost one long-established major along with a TT faculty member, a part-timer doing 30% of the teacher in another major, and an innovative new program that was popular with students. I assume every department will be facing something similar.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 24, 2020, 02:25:42 PM
Quote from: nonntt on April 24, 2020, 01:15:03 PM
We will soon be hearing about dire financial straits at public universities in states with formerly significant oil revenues. My department just lost one long-established major along with a TT faculty member, a part-timer doing 30% of the teacher in another major, and an innovative new program that was popular with students. I assume every department will be facing something similar.

Alaska, North Dakota and Pennsylvania got the bad news already. Pennsylvania was already not providing much money. At the other extreme, Wyoming will be interesting to watch since energy mining is big, as is state support for the university.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: risenanew on April 26, 2020, 12:30:06 AM
What I find so fascinating about the LostColleges.com list is that none of the college listed (so far as I could tell, anyway) are community colleges. Why are community colleges less likely to close compared to four-year (and other senior) institutions?

I imagine community colleges may be more likely to survive because community colleges are probably less common in higher education, may serve a broader population of students beyond traditional-age youth, and are usually public institutions supported (to some paltry extent, anyway) by public funds. Is there anything else I'm missing?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: AmLitHist on April 26, 2020, 07:03:25 AM
Quote from: risenanew on April 26, 2020, 12:30:06 AM
What I find so fascinating about the LostColleges.com list is that none of the college listed (so far as I could tell, anyway) are community colleges. Why are community colleges less likely to close compared to four-year (and other senior) institutions?

I imagine community colleges may be more likely to survive because community colleges are probably less common in higher education, may serve a broader population of students beyond traditional-age youth, and are usually public institutions supported (to some paltry extent, anyway) by public funds. Is there anything else I'm missing?

Speaking just from my own CC experience, we're the place people send their kids when they can't afford the Real School, when their kids wash out of the Real School, and (hopefully in the current situation) when it's perceived to be unsafe to send their kids back to the Real School.  (That's not meant as a disparaging term--it's just our local shorthand to differentiate between our CC and several others locally, vs. the state Uni's several locations and other out-of-state 4-year schools.)

So:
--We're cheaper
--Going to the local CC means the kids live at home and the parents (theoretically) have more oversight and control of whatever distracted the kids and led to them washing out (and, as I've heard from many students over the years, they want to redeem themselves in their parents' eyes by doing well at CC so they can get the heck back out of Mom and Dad's house and back to the freedom of their Real School).
--If it might or might not be safe to go back to Real School this fall, the kids will be at home in a presumably more controlled environment, and/or it alleviates the potential of having to pack up, move to campus in August, and then have all the hassle of dragging everything back home if the virus comes back and things shut down again later in the fall.

The other thing CCs traditionally have going for us is that a lousy economy means boom times for us*:  if people are out of work and/or have seen their jobs/careers/fields go away, they need to retrain for new jobs/careers/fields. And if they expect to be out of work for awhile, with cheap tuition (ours is about $110/credit hour) and pretty available Pell, other grants, and financial aid money, many older unemployed people (i.e., 30s on up) figure they might as well be doing something with that time off and have something to show for it, even if just a quick stackable credential or two to take back into the job market.

At least, that's how it used to be. I have no idea what this round of economic downturn will bring:  so far I have only 5 students registered in my summer sessions, and the same number across my mostly-online fall classes.  We'll see if the boom(let) materializes.  But a lot of colleagues and I, still in the shadow of a massive RIF a couple of years back, are nervous, to put it mildly.

-----
*In 2009-11, my own department on my campus had 17 FT and nearly 40 adjunct faculty every semester, with over half of the FT people teaching full OL (so, 8 sections/person/semester) and 2/3 of the adjuncts teaching 3 or 4 sections (this was as the more stringent limits for qualifying for benefits, thus limited adjuncts to no more than 3 sections max, were being phased in).  Today we have 6 FT faculty, with only two of us teaching 1-2 OL sections, and fewer than 10 adjuncts, most each doing only a section or two.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: risenanew on April 26, 2020, 10:26:28 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on April 26, 2020, 07:03:25 AM
Quote from: risenanew on April 26, 2020, 12:30:06 AM
What I find so fascinating about the LostColleges.com list is that none of the college listed (so far as I could tell, anyway) are community colleges. Why are community colleges less likely to close compared to four-year (and other senior) institutions?

I imagine community colleges may be more likely to survive because community colleges are probably less common in higher education, may serve a broader population of students beyond traditional-age youth, and are usually public institutions supported (to some paltry extent, anyway) by public funds. Is there anything else I'm missing?

Speaking just from my own CC experience, we're the place people send their kids when they can't afford the Real School, when their kids wash out of the Real School, and (hopefully in the current situation) when it's perceived to be unsafe to send their kids back to the Real School.  (That's not meant as a disparaging term--it's just our local shorthand to differentiate between our CC and several others locally, vs. the state Uni's several locations and other out-of-state 4-year schools.)

So:
--We're cheaper
--Going to the local CC means the kids live at home and the parents (theoretically) have more oversight and control of whatever distracted the kids and led to them washing out (and, as I've heard from many students over the years, they want to redeem themselves in their parents' eyes by doing well at CC so they can get the heck back out of Mom and Dad's house and back to the freedom of their Real School).
--If it might or might not be safe to go back to Real School this fall, the kids will be at home in a presumably more controlled environment, and/or it alleviates the potential of having to pack up, move to campus in August, and then have all the hassle of dragging everything back home if the virus comes back and things shut down again later in the fall.

The other thing CCs traditionally have going for us is that a lousy economy means boom times for us*:  if people are out of work and/or have seen their jobs/careers/fields go away, they need to retrain for new jobs/careers/fields. And if they expect to be out of work for awhile, with cheap tuition (ours is about $110/credit hour) and pretty available Pell, other grants, and financial aid money, many older unemployed people (i.e., 30s on up) figure they might as well be doing something with that time off and have something to show for it, even if just a quick stackable credential or two to take back into the job market.

At least, that's how it used to be. I have no idea what this round of economic downturn will bring:  so far I have only 5 students registered in my summer sessions, and the same number across my mostly-online fall classes.  We'll see if the boom(let) materializes.  But a lot of colleagues and I, still in the shadow of a massive RIF a couple of years back, are nervous, to put it mildly.

-----
*In 2009-11, my own department on my campus had 17 FT and nearly 40 adjunct faculty every semester, with over half of the FT people teaching full OL (so, 8 sections/person/semester) and 2/3 of the adjuncts teaching 3 or 4 sections (this was as the more stringent limits for qualifying for benefits, thus limited adjuncts to no more than 3 sections max, were being phased in).  Today we have 6 FT faculty, with only two of us teaching 1-2 OL sections, and fewer than 10 adjuncts, most each doing only a section or two.

That's a great explanation for the varied reasons for why community colleges might survive a down-turn... sometimes, being the "last refuge" for students who have no other entry-point into higher education can be a damned good thing!

And yes, I'm very nervous about how the COVID-19 pandemic will affect community colleges also. I am literally living in the hot-zone of the pandemic while employed at a fairly large (student population = roughly 11,000) community college that has had a declining student population for several years. (We were at around 16,000 students at our peak a few years back!)

This public community college (and every other public educational institution in our area) will be hammered with budget cuts soon... but if we're very lucky, we might be able to make up for some of those cuts with a surge (or at least steady) enrollment. That's probably the boat that many other community colleges are in around the country, whether or not they're in an area with as much COVID-19 activity as my college is.

Ultimately though, if we look at what institutions might be most vulnerable to the pandemic, it's probably institutions that can't rely on public funding, are not very well known to the public (aka little-to-no reputation to bank on), are relatively expensive for students, and are located outside of major metro areas. Do y'all think that speculation is correct or that I'm leaving something out?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on April 26, 2020, 10:44:39 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 23, 2020, 08:00:18 AM
I've often wondered about the economic impact of a school closing.  Even in a fairly robust area a college closing will not only put a lot of people out of work, but vendors, landlords, and local small business owners would be hit.


Rents will decrease so that it will be easier for remaining students to afford going to college at the one not too far away that didn't close. Hopefully colleges won't see that as an excuse to raise tuition and fees. Not saying a college closing is something we want, but 'it's an ill wind that blows no good.'
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on April 27, 2020, 06:29:23 AM
Quote from: risenanew on April 26, 2020, 10:26:28 AM
Ultimately though, if we look at what institutions might be most vulnerable to the pandemic, it's probably institutions that can't rely on public funding, are not very well known to the public (aka little-to-no reputation to bank on), are relatively expensive for students, and are located outside of major metro areas. Do y'all think that speculation is correct or that I'm leaving something out?

Public funding means state funding, which means publics are totally screwed. Publics can't rely on public funding. Privates don't have public funding to lose.

I'd expect the hardest hit to be in major metro areas, to the extent that there are concerns about catching the virus. This is more speculative.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Caracal on April 27, 2020, 10:48:51 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 27, 2020, 06:29:23 AM
Quote from: risenanew on April 26, 2020, 10:26:28 AM
Ultimately though, if we look at what institutions might be most vulnerable to the pandemic, it's probably institutions that can't rely on public funding, are not very well known to the public (aka little-to-no reputation to bank on), are relatively expensive for students, and are located outside of major metro areas. Do y'all think that speculation is correct or that I'm leaving something out?

Public funding means state funding, which means publics are totally screwed. Publics can't rely on public funding. Privates don't have public funding to lose.


Yeah, but states have more invested in their educational systems, they have deeper pocketbooks and more ability to move money around. They also are going to get federal grants, Mitch McConnell's gross posturing notwithstanding. They are also, on balance, likely to have lower drops in enrollment, perhaps even gains in the long run, since they are more affordable.

I'd argue that schools in growing metro areas should do better really, at least if those areas are growing. Regional Universities with declining enrollments could find themselves in more trouble.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on April 27, 2020, 11:11:03 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 27, 2020, 10:48:51 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 27, 2020, 06:29:23 AM
Quote from: risenanew on April 26, 2020, 10:26:28 AM
Ultimately though, if we look at what institutions might be most vulnerable to the pandemic, it's probably institutions that can't rely on public funding, are not very well known to the public (aka little-to-no reputation to bank on), are relatively expensive for students, and are located outside of major metro areas. Do y'all think that speculation is correct or that I'm leaving something out?

Public funding means state funding, which means publics are totally screwed. Publics can't rely on public funding. Privates don't have public funding to lose.


Yeah, but states have more invested in their educational systems, they have deeper pocketbooks and more ability to move money around. They also are going to get federal grants, Mitch McConnell's gross posturing notwithstanding. They are also, on balance, likely to have lower drops in enrollment, perhaps even gains in the long run, since they are more affordable.

All 50 states have been hit hard and they have to balance their budgets. The only direction money will be moving is out of the spending side of the budget. Federal grants (if there are any) will be much less than their shortfalls. The only public schools that won't see a big drop in government funding will be the ones that don't receive much government funding. It's always possible that there will be a shocking development, but I don't know of any public school administrators not currently expecting deep budget cuts.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Caracal on April 27, 2020, 12:03:03 PM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 27, 2020, 11:11:03 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 27, 2020, 10:48:51 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on April 27, 2020, 06:29:23 AM
Quote from: risenanew on April 26, 2020, 10:26:28 AM
Ultimately though, if we look at what institutions might be most vulnerable to the pandemic, it's probably institutions that can't rely on public funding, are not very well known to the public (aka little-to-no reputation to bank on), are relatively expensive for students, and are located outside of major metro areas. Do y'all think that speculation is correct or that I'm leaving something out?

Public funding means state funding, which means publics are totally screwed. Publics can't rely on public funding. Privates don't have public funding to lose.


Yeah, but states have more invested in their educational systems, they have deeper pocketbooks and more ability to move money around. They also are going to get federal grants, Mitch McConnell's gross posturing notwithstanding. They are also, on balance, likely to have lower drops in enrollment, perhaps even gains in the long run, since they are more affordable.

All 50 states have been hit hard and they have to balance their budgets. The only direction money will be moving is out of the spending side of the budget. Federal grants (if there are any) will be much less than their shortfalls. The only public schools that won't see a big drop in government funding will be the ones that don't receive much government funding. It's always possible that there will be a shocking development, but I don't know of any public school administrators not currently expecting deep budget cuts.

Yeah, certainly. I just mean that compared to private schools with  limited endowment that largely rely on tuition revenue, most state schools are better positioned. The fancy private schools are a different story.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 29, 2020, 04:21:38 AM
These poll numbers aren't good. (https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2020/04/29/colleges-could-lose-20-percent-students-analysis-says)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Caracal on April 29, 2020, 06:02:22 AM
Quote from: spork on April 29, 2020, 04:21:38 AM
These poll numbers aren't good. (https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2020/04/29/colleges-could-lose-20-percent-students-analysis-says)

It seems like a pretty classic example of polls where the questions asked aren't going to necessarily get you useful information. It also doesn't help that the article presents the results in some strange ways. To my mind, saying you aren't likely to return to your school is pretty different than saying "it is too soon to tell." Too soon to tell seems like a very sensible answer to any question right now about anything more than a week off.

I'd also be curious if anyone has asked students this question in the spring of other semesters. Given that about 40 percent of freshmen at four year colleges don't return to that school for their sophomore year, 14 percent of student who aren't sure if they are coming back doesn't really seem  unusually high.

The numbers don't really give a lot of useful information context. "Ten percent of college-bound seniors who had planned to enroll at a four-year college before the COVID-19 outbreak have already made alternative plans" sounds alarming, but what makes a student "college bound" and what percentage of these students actually end up enrolling in college in the fall in other years?

I think this is my "favorite" passage, its from one of the linked articles.

"Today, newly released data from polling of U.S. high school seniors suggest admissions officers may have good reason to be worried.
About 12 percent of such students who have already made deposits no longer plan to attend a four-year college full-time, according to the polling. The findings are being shared today by the consulting firm Art & Science Group, which polled 1,171 high school seniors from April 21-24.
Admissions officers always expect some students who told a college they planned to attend not to enroll. The phenomenon has a name: summer melt. Different surveys show summer melt affecting between 10 percent and 20 percent of students. But the new data specifically about students who have already deposited is particularly concerning coming at this point in this particular year, said Nanci Tessier, senior vice president at Art & Science."

I feel like I'm reading a mediocre student paper.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 29, 2020, 06:36:39 AM
Quote from: spork on April 29, 2020, 04:21:38 AM
These poll numbers aren't good. (https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2020/04/29/colleges-could-lose-20-percent-students-analysis-says)
Two points interest me:

Quote
Gap years may be gaining in popularity. While hard to track, there are estimates that 3 percent of freshmen take a gap year. Since the pandemic, internet searches for gap years have skyrocketed.

If this means a bunch of students who would previously have gone by default, i.e. just because it's "the thing to do", then this is a good thing. Whatever decision they've made after a year is likely to be more deliberate.

Quote
College students do not like the online education they have been receiving. To finish their degrees, 85 percent want to go back to campus, but 15 percent want to finish online.

That's a huge number; it's not merely about taking a course or two online, but finishing their degree. After having had 3 years of the on-campus "experience".

Let that sink in for a moment.....
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on April 29, 2020, 06:42:19 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2020, 06:36:39 AM
That's a huge number; it's not merely about taking a course or two online, but finishing their degree. After having had 3 years of the on-campus "experience".

Let that sink in for a moment.....

I don't know. It seems quite small to me. 15% of seniors would prefer to just get college over with, living at home, without having to worry so much about other irresponsible students endangering them. Without having to pay for accommodation when they can't find a job. I'd have guessed more than that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on April 29, 2020, 07:07:28 AM
QuoteSimpsonScarborough, a higher education research and marketing company, has predicted on the basis of multiple student surveys it has conducted.

Let's get our data from a firm not doing surveys for the sole purpose of recruiting new customers.

"multiple surveys": So that means they're reporting the results that are going to bring them the most business?

The presentation of results is done to paint the most dramatic picture possible. Students always change their mind. This would be a pretty good time for a student to reconsider the decision to go to college, but that tells us absolutely nothing. "Ten percent of college-bound seniors who had planned to enroll at a four-year college before the COVID-19 outbreak have already made alternative plans." What does that mean? We have no way to know! What percentage of seniors have changed their minds to enroll since this happened? Oh, we don't have that critically important data?

tldr: It's a scary time. You better hire us to help with marketing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on April 29, 2020, 07:09:04 AM
Quote from: downer on April 29, 2020, 06:42:19 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2020, 06:36:39 AM
That's a huge number; it's not merely about taking a course or two online, but finishing their degree. After having had 3 years of the on-campus "experience".

Let that sink in for a moment.....

I don't know. It seems quite small to me. 15% of seniors would prefer to just get college over with, living at home, without having to worry so much about other irresponsible students endangering them. Without having to pay for accommodation when they can't find a job. I'd have guessed more than that.

Maybe. But you've changed "want to finish online" to "would prefer". Not the same thing.

We'd need to see the actual questions to know if there's any kind of "nudge", if this is being presented as a forced choice, or as a preference on a spectrum. And inferring motives is a risky move.

Also, the exclusions of both CC's and foreign students are important. Is it a wash?

Probably inconclusive reports, but worth reviewing as they are refined.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 29, 2020, 07:47:19 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on April 29, 2020, 07:09:04 AM
Quote from: downer on April 29, 2020, 06:42:19 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2020, 06:36:39 AM
That's a huge number; it's not merely about taking a course or two online, but finishing their degree. After having had 3 years of the on-campus "experience".

Let that sink in for a moment.....

I don't know. It seems quite small to me. 15% of seniors would prefer to just get college over with, living at home, without having to worry so much about other irresponsible students endangering them. Without having to pay for accommodation when they can't find a job. I'd have guessed more than that.

Maybe. But you've changed "want to finish online" to "would prefer". Not the same thing.


And that's given the dog's breakfast their online experience has been this year due to covid. It is hardly the best advertisement for the benefits of online education.


Quote
We'd need to see the actual questions to know if there's any kind of "nudge", if this is being presented as a forced choice, or as a preference on a spectrum. And inferring motives is a risky move.

Also, the exclusions of both CC's and foreign students are important. Is it a wash?

Probably inconclusive reports, but worth reviewing as they are refined.

Indeed. If that 15% is anything close to meaningful, it's a big deal.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Caracal on April 29, 2020, 11:29:17 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2020, 07:47:19 AM
[
Indeed. If that 15% is anything close to meaningful, it's a big deal.

Not really, we are in the midst of a pandemic. People have had to learn to think of crowds and close interaction as dangerous. It doesn't really seem shocking that a small percentage of students would express a preference for avoiding risk when asked a hypothetical question about something they don't control four months into the future.

Surveys are often pretty bad at predicting people's future behavior. Every election year as the primary is wrapping up, there are always polls showing that some high percentage of the losing candidate's supporters "aren't sure" if they are going to vote for the winner in the general election. In the end, the vast majority of them always do. They just haven't gotten over their disappointment yet.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 29, 2020, 12:22:11 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2020, 06:36:39 AM

Quote
Gap years may be gaining in popularity. While hard to track, there are estimates that 3 percent of freshmen take a gap year. Since the pandemic, internet searches for gap years have skyrocketed.

If this means a bunch of students who would previously have gone by default, i.e. just because it's "the thing to do", then this is a good thing. Whatever decision they've made after a year is likely to be more deliberate.

I'm inclined to agree with you that a reality-check gap year would do a lot of potential students some good (A one-year vacation gap year would be another matter).  However, the best reality check would be a year's exposure to the world of work.  That may be awfully hard to do with the economy in the shape it's in now.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 01, 2020, 10:21:21 AM
S&P Slashes 127 Colleges (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/05/01/sp-slashes-outlook-127-colleges) from IHE.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on May 01, 2020, 12:32:47 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 01, 2020, 10:21:21 AM
S&P Slashes 127 Colleges (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/05/01/sp-slashes-outlook-127-colleges) from IHE.

The list, if you want the names: https://www.spglobal.com/ratings/en/research/articles/200430-outlooks-revised-on-certain-u-s-not-for-profit-higher-education-institutions-due-to-covid-19-impact-11469520 (https://www.spglobal.com/ratings/en/research/articles/200430-outlooks-revised-on-certain-u-s-not-for-profit-higher-education-institutions-due-to-covid-19-impact-11469520)

Gulp.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: emera gratia on May 01, 2020, 01:09:33 PM
Ohio University cutting programs and people, including tenure-track professors: https://actionnetwork.org/petitions/bobcats-stand-together-to-save-our-profs?fbclid=IwAR2e-65Ukds-aAeC1zW0IoXRGICAUqG1HWjqWbm-0esKI1N81j43PfjrqgY
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 01, 2020, 01:17:57 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on May 01, 2020, 12:32:47 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 01, 2020, 10:21:21 AM
S&P Slashes 127 Colleges (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/05/01/sp-slashes-outlook-127-colleges) from IHE.

The list, if you want the names: https://www.spglobal.com/ratings/en/research/articles/200430-outlooks-revised-on-certain-u-s-not-for-profit-higher-education-institutions-due-to-covid-19-impact-11469520 (https://www.spglobal.com/ratings/en/research/articles/200430-outlooks-revised-on-certain-u-s-not-for-profit-higher-education-institutions-due-to-covid-19-impact-11469520)

Gulp.

Only one institution on the list that's in our state, and it's not my alma mater.  But I was startled to see who it was.  I would have thought that that school was in better shape than that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 01, 2020, 02:07:21 PM
Quote from: emera gratia on May 01, 2020, 01:09:33 PM
Ohio University cutting programs and people, including tenure-track professors: https://actionnetwork.org/petitions/bobcats-stand-together-to-save-our-profs?fbclid=IwAR2e-65Ukds-aAeC1zW0IoXRGICAUqG1HWjqWbm-0esKI1N81j43PfjrqgY

Probationary faculty and adjuncts receiving notices of non-renewal. Interesting.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on May 01, 2020, 03:34:59 PM
Well, the Ohio petition also states:

Responsible fiscal governance at a public university demands that cuts to balance the budget must first come from non-academic units.

Maybe. But clearly, God bless me and to hell with you.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 01, 2020, 03:44:02 PM
Quote from: spork on May 01, 2020, 02:07:21 PM
Quote from: emera gratia on May 01, 2020, 01:09:33 PM
Ohio University cutting programs and people, including tenure-track professors: https://actionnetwork.org/petitions/bobcats-stand-together-to-save-our-profs?fbclid=IwAR2e-65Ukds-aAeC1zW0IoXRGICAUqG1HWjqWbm-0esKI1N81j43PfjrqgY

Probationary faculty and adjuncts receiving notices of non-renewal. Interesting.

Sign the petition.  Post to Facebook and/or Twitter. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 01, 2020, 05:09:12 PM
Why should I bother doing something that will have zero effect? I don't believe in virtue signaling. Undergraduate FTE enrollment at OU increased by 22% between FY 2006 and FY 2018. Graduate FTE increased by 65% during the same period. Since it seems that OU can't pay its bills despite the increased tuition revenue, that leads me to conclude that this is a state financing problem, to be solved one way or the other by Ohio taxpayers and legislators. So far at least the people of Ohio appear to place more value on the OU men's basketball and football programs than on post-secondary education. Not my place to try to interfere with that decision.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 01, 2020, 05:19:53 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 01, 2020, 10:21:21 AM
S&P Slashes 127 Colleges (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/05/01/sp-slashes-outlook-127-colleges) from IHE.

The numbers on colleges not in dire financial straits: "At the end of last year, only 3.2 percent of S&P-rated colleges and universities had been assigned positive outlooks. All of those have now been revised to stable".
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 01, 2020, 06:32:06 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 01, 2020, 05:19:53 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 01, 2020, 10:21:21 AM
S&P Slashes 127 Colleges (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/05/01/sp-slashes-outlook-127-colleges) from IHE.

The numbers on colleges not in dire financial straits: "At the end of last year, only 3.2 percent of S&P-rated colleges and universities had been assigned positive outlooks. All of those have now been revised to stable".

Wow.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on May 01, 2020, 07:31:03 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 01, 2020, 05:19:53 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 01, 2020, 10:21:21 AM
S&P Slashes 127 Colleges (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/05/01/sp-slashes-outlook-127-colleges) from IHE.

The numbers on colleges not in dire financial straits: "At the end of last year, only 3.2 percent of S&P-rated colleges and universities had been assigned positive outlooks. All of those have now been revised to stable".

Not to deny that the colleges on the S&P lists don't have their work cut out for them, but to my understanding, the rating has to do with their bond ratings and their ability to take on more debt given their finances and their projected economic climate. There was quite a variety of bond ratings among the listed schools. Some, like Providence College, have an A bond rating, despite a negative outlook, while others have a bond rating of BBB-, with the same negative outlook.  Aside from the schools with a billion dollar endowment, isn't everyone else facing a negative outlook for the next few years, regardless of their bond rating? Shouldn't you be a bit more concerned if your school is negative and in the BBB range vs A range? Also, doesn't the rating correlate with the ability to borrow money at an adjusted interest rate depending on your perceived riskiness? How much should someone (employees or prospective students) read into a list like that?

I feel like some on here might have some insight on known markers of "the writing on the wall" as it relates to S&P ratings and other factors.

I was also shocked to see that Sweet Briar formerly had a positive outlook, along with a BB- rating. Good for them, I guess. I haven't seen them in the news or on this thread recently, so I guess that's a positive.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 02, 2020, 05:45:45 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 01, 2020, 07:31:03 PM
I was also shocked to see that Sweet Briar formerly had a positive outlook, along with a BB- rating. Good for them, I guess. I haven't seen them in the news or on this thread recently, so I guess that's a positive.

It's not a positive to drop out of sight and discussion.  We don't talk about Sweet Briar any more because they didn't really recover; they just didn't close immediately upon the first announcement.

If they were doing an Antioch-type recovery, then we'd be hearing about it everywhere that colleges in dire financial straits are being discussed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 02, 2020, 05:54:50 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 02, 2020, 05:45:45 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 01, 2020, 07:31:03 PM
I was also shocked to see that Sweet Briar formerly had a positive outlook, along with a BB- rating. Good for them, I guess. I haven't seen them in the news or on this thread recently, so I guess that's a positive.

It's not a positive to drop out of sight and discussion.  We don't talk about Sweet Briar any more because they didn't really recover; they just didn't close immediately upon the first announcement.

If they were doing an Antioch-type recovery, then we'd be hearing about it everywhere that colleges in dire financial straits are being discussed.

Sweet Briar's most recent IRS Form 990 (FY 2018) shows a net loss of $1.4 million on $36.7 million in expenses, a -3.8% margin. Healthy institutions have a +3.8% margin.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Caracal on May 02, 2020, 06:32:55 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 01, 2020, 07:31:03 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 01, 2020, 05:19:53 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 01, 2020, 10:21:21 AM
S&P Slashes 127 Colleges (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/05/01/sp-slashes-outlook-127-colleges) from IHE.

The numbers on colleges not in dire financial straits: "At the end of last year, only 3.2 percent of S&P-rated colleges and universities had been assigned positive outlooks. All of those have now been revised to stable".

Not to deny that the colleges on the S&P lists don't have their work cut out for them, but to my understanding, the rating has to do with their bond ratings and their ability to take on more debt given their finances and their projected economic climate. There was quite a variety of bond ratings among the listed schools. Some, like Providence College, have an A bond rating, despite a negative outlook, while others have a bond rating of BBB-, with the same negative outlook.  Aside from the schools with a billion dollar endowment, isn't everyone else facing a negative outlook for the next few years, regardless of their bond rating? Shouldn't you be a bit more concerned if your school is negative and in the BBB range vs A range? Also, doesn't the rating correlate with the ability to borrow money at an adjusted interest rate depending on your perceived riskiness? How much should someone (employees or prospective students) read into a list like that?

I feel like some on here might have some insight on known markers of "the writing on the wall" as it relates to S&P ratings and other factors.


Yeah, that's important context. For private schools, unsurprisingly, it seems to show that the places at most risk were not doing great in the first place. Most of them have ratings in the Bs, only a couple of downward revisions from A-s and only one from anywhere higher than that.

The public schools being downgraded tend to have higher ratings. (perhaps because there are fewer public schools with ratings below A in the first place?) Downgrades seem heavily concentrated in areas with static or declining populations. Also HBCUs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 02, 2020, 08:07:17 PM
Auckland is asking some of its lecturers to teach for free (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/300002278/auckland-uni-lecturer-says-workforfree-request-a-kick-in-the-guts).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 02, 2020, 08:32:27 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 02, 2020, 08:07:17 PM
Auckland is asking some of its lecturers to teach for free (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/300002278/auckland-uni-lecturer-says-workforfree-request-a-kick-in-the-guts).

Polly should like this one.

Exploitation much?

I might consider it if my dean, provost, and president also worked the semester for free.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sprout on May 02, 2020, 10:31:12 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 02, 2020, 08:32:27 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 02, 2020, 08:07:17 PM
Auckland is asking some of its lecturers to teach for free (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/300002278/auckland-uni-lecturer-says-workforfree-request-a-kick-in-the-guts).

I might consider it if my dean, provost, and president also worked the semester for free.

That is the only condition under which I might conceivably consider for a moment agreeing.  That is *bleeping* ballsy.  Somebody needs to tell them that, in fact, it can hurt to ask.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on May 03, 2020, 02:01:03 AM
"Tertiary Education Union national president Michael Gilchrist expected many full-time salaried academic [sic] would continue teaching the New Start programme, despite not being paid." I hope they all cut that out right now. I do have colleagues who sometimes knock them out doing big projects for no compensation, and I don't think they're doing anyone any favors except the bean-counting administrators who would really like not to pay any salaries at all.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 03, 2020, 06:10:23 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 02, 2020, 08:32:27 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 02, 2020, 08:07:17 PM
Auckland is asking some of its lecturers to teach for free (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/300002278/auckland-uni-lecturer-says-workforfree-request-a-kick-in-the-guts).

Polly should like this one.

Exploitation much?


I don't think Polly would like this one. (I'm not a big fan either.) But it will be interesting to see how many people go for it. Is it exploitation if people "'volunteer"? How will institutions ever need to be realistic about salaries if there's literally no lower limit to what people will accept????

Realistically, in the Auckland case, if the program needs charity to survive, it's not likely to last long.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: bacardiandlime on May 03, 2020, 07:13:32 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on May 03, 2020, 02:01:03 AM
"Tertiary Education Union national president Michael Gilchrist expected many full-time salaried academic [sic] would continue teaching the New Start programme, despite not being paid." I hope they all cut that out right now. I do have colleagues who sometimes knock them out doing big projects for no compensation, and I don't think they're doing anyone any favors except the bean-counting administrators who would really like not to pay any salaries at all.

All of this. What kind of a union is ok with scabbing? And I'm sick to death of academics who claim to be leftists happily working for free, undercutting their colleagues ("solidarity" my a$$).

OF COURSE the units where they're asking for volunteers are essentially remedial college prep for HS dropouts. They will be able to guilt some beleaguered academics into doing the "right thing".

I guarantee nobody is being asked to teach engineering or medicine for free.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 03, 2020, 07:14:57 AM
Quote from: spork on May 02, 2020, 05:54:50 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 02, 2020, 05:45:45 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 01, 2020, 07:31:03 PM
I was also shocked to see that Sweet Briar formerly had a positive outlook, along with a BB- rating. Good for them, I guess. I haven't seen them in the news or on this thread recently, so I guess that's a positive.

It's not a positive to drop out of sight and discussion.  We don't talk about Sweet Briar any more because they didn't really recover; they just didn't close immediately upon the first announcement.

If they were doing an Antioch-type recovery, then we'd be hearing about it everywhere that colleges in dire financial straits are being discussed.

Sweet Briar's most recent IRS Form 990 (FY 2018) shows a net loss of $1.4 million on $36.7 million in expenses, a -3.8% margin. Healthy institutions have a +3.8% margin.

The positive outlook is likely that SBs financial outlook is bad, just not as bad as in the year before when they pulled the plug.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on May 03, 2020, 07:49:51 AM
Quote from: bacardiandlime on May 03, 2020, 07:13:32 AM

All of this. What kind of a union is ok with scabbing? And I'm sick to death of academics who claim to be leftists happily working for free, undercutting their colleagues ("solidarity" my a$$).

OF COURSE the units where they're asking for volunteers are essentially remedial college prep for HS dropouts. They will be able to guilt some beleaguered academics into doing the "right thing".


Sure, this emotional blackmail is a tactic with extensive history.

A union that won't advocate for its members deserves defunding. Of course, the amount of work dues collected from these faculty is small, which means an unscrupulous union will throw them under the bus.

Quote
Realistically, in the Auckland case, if the program needs charity to survive, it's not likely to last long.

It's too big and too established of an empire to fail. the government (which means, of course, the citizens) will save it for those who are still employed.

QuotePolly should like this one.

I have no choice at this point but to select 'ignore user' for Polly. It's explained on the 'Post Your Asides Here" thread #157-160 FYI. There is no logical reason to read a poster whose contribution is advice and who has revealed an intention to have that advice ignored.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 04, 2020, 07:55:09 AM
Quote from: spork on May 01, 2020, 02:07:21 PM
Quote from: emera gratia on May 01, 2020, 01:09:33 PM
Ohio University cutting programs and people, including tenure-track professors: https://actionnetwork.org/petitions/bobcats-stand-together-to-save-our-profs?fbclid=IwAR2e-65Ukds-aAeC1zW0IoXRGICAUqG1HWjqWbm-0esKI1N81j43PfjrqgY

Probationary faculty and adjuncts receiving notices of non-renewal. Interesting.

Tenured and tenure-track faculty, too.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 04, 2020, 08:01:44 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 04, 2020, 07:55:09 AM
Quote from: spork on May 01, 2020, 02:07:21 PM
Quote from: emera gratia on May 01, 2020, 01:09:33 PM
Ohio University cutting programs and people, including tenure-track professors: https://actionnetwork.org/petitions/bobcats-stand-together-to-save-our-profs?fbclid=IwAR2e-65Ukds-aAeC1zW0IoXRGICAUqG1HWjqWbm-0esKI1N81j43PfjrqgY

Probationary faculty and adjuncts receiving notices of non-renewal. Interesting.

Tenured and tenure-track faculty, too.

Wouldn't they have to be "terminations" instead of "non-renewal" notices for anyone NOT on a limited term contract? (I'd think that would even apply to probationary employees, since they don't need to be "renewed".)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 04, 2020, 08:36:31 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 04, 2020, 08:01:44 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 04, 2020, 07:55:09 AM
Quote from: spork on May 01, 2020, 02:07:21 PM
Quote from: emera gratia on May 01, 2020, 01:09:33 PM
Ohio University cutting programs and people, including tenure-track professors: https://actionnetwork.org/petitions/bobcats-stand-together-to-save-our-profs?fbclid=IwAR2e-65Ukds-aAeC1zW0IoXRGICAUqG1HWjqWbm-0esKI1N81j43PfjrqgY

Probationary faculty and adjuncts receiving notices of non-renewal. Interesting.

Tenured and tenure-track faculty, too.

Wouldn't they have to be "terminations" instead of "non-renewal" notices for anyone NOT on a limited term contract? (I'd think that would even apply to probationary employees, since they don't need to be "renewed".)

I don't know what specific notices were received, but I know that two TT and one tenured faculty in my field have received them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on May 04, 2020, 09:38:59 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 04, 2020, 08:01:44 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 04, 2020, 07:55:09 AM
Quote from: spork on May 01, 2020, 02:07:21 PM
Quote from: emera gratia on May 01, 2020, 01:09:33 PM
Ohio University cutting programs and people, including tenure-track professors: https://actionnetwork.org/petitions/bobcats-stand-together-to-save-our-profs?fbclid=IwAR2e-65Ukds-aAeC1zW0IoXRGICAUqG1HWjqWbm-0esKI1N81j43PfjrqgY

Probationary faculty and adjuncts receiving notices of non-renewal. Interesting.

Tenured and tenure-track faculty, too.

Wouldn't they have to be "terminations" instead of "non-renewal" notices for anyone NOT on a limited term contract? (I'd think that would even apply to probationary employees, since they don't need to be "renewed".)

Tenure means you have automatic renewal of your contract. On the tenure track means you need to be regularly renewed (most places it's once per year, AFAICT). Even though I have tenure, letting me go for financial reasons would technically be implemented as a nonrenewal. Firing me for bad behavior would be a termination.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 04, 2020, 09:56:22 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on May 04, 2020, 09:38:59 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 04, 2020, 08:01:44 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 04, 2020, 07:55:09 AM
Quote from: spork on May 01, 2020, 02:07:21 PM
Quote from: emera gratia on May 01, 2020, 01:09:33 PM
Ohio University cutting programs and people, including tenure-track professors: https://actionnetwork.org/petitions/bobcats-stand-together-to-save-our-profs?fbclid=IwAR2e-65Ukds-aAeC1zW0IoXRGICAUqG1HWjqWbm-0esKI1N81j43PfjrqgY

Probationary faculty and adjuncts receiving notices of non-renewal. Interesting.

Tenured and tenure-track faculty, too.

Wouldn't they have to be "terminations" instead of "non-renewal" notices for anyone NOT on a limited term contract? (I'd think that would even apply to probationary employees, since they don't need to be "renewed".)

Tenure means you have automatic renewal of your contract. On the tenure track means you need to be regularly renewed (most places it's once per year, AFAICT). Even though I have tenure, letting me go for financial reasons would technically be implemented as a nonrenewal. Firing me for bad behavior would be a termination.

I'm not a lawyer, but is there some kind of time limit on "finacial exigency"? I know that tenured faculty can be fired under conditions like that, but could an institution get rid of someone claiming financial exigency and then a few months later hire someone else to essentially replace them? I'd guess the courts would take a dim view of that. In other words, if they get rid of tenured people they pretty much have to shut down departments. Anyone with any legal knowledge out there able to provide enlightenment?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on May 04, 2020, 10:51:36 AM
At our state university they don't even refer to an adjunct re-appointment as a renewal. It's 'being hired'. Anything they can do to keep the outsiders outside. Oh, the language might be different in the union contract, but when the administrators are talking, they talk in the snooty way that they prefer.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: wellfleet on May 04, 2020, 03:03:04 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 04, 2020, 09:56:22 AM
I'm not a lawyer, but is there some kind of time limit on "finacial exigency"? I know that tenured faculty can be fired under conditions like that, but could an institution get rid of someone claiming financial exigency and then a few months later hire someone else to essentially replace them? I'd guess the courts would take a dim view of that. In other words, if they get rid of tenured people they pretty much have to shut down departments. Anyone with any legal knowledge out there able to provide enlightenment?

Legal claims are hard to pursue, and would depend on state law, right? The "financial exigency" declaration is what spares an institution public shaming by the AAUP if it terminates tenured faculty without individual cause, like malfeasance. Not that public shaming always works.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on May 04, 2020, 04:17:13 PM
Quote from: wellfleet on May 04, 2020, 03:03:04 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 04, 2020, 09:56:22 AM
I'm not a lawyer, but is there some kind of time limit on "finacial exigency"? I know that tenured faculty can be fired under conditions like that, but could an institution get rid of someone claiming financial exigency and then a few months later hire someone else to essentially replace them? I'd guess the courts would take a dim view of that. In other words, if they get rid of tenured people they pretty much have to shut down departments. Anyone with any legal knowledge out there able to provide enlightenment?

Legal claims are hard to pursue, and would depend on state law, right? The "financial exigency" declaration is what spares an institution public shaming by the AAUP if it terminates tenured faculty without individual cause, like malfeasance. Not that public shaming always works.

There may be state laws, collective bargaining agreements, or written policies that create rights to be offered position if it's re-opened within a year or so. Absent those, the risk in the USA is that the former employee will file a civil rights complaint. Eliminate my position, then hire someone for essentially the same job within a year? If your new hire is under 40, I'll claim age discrimination and use those emails about how older faculty are less flexible and less popular with students as evidence. Those lawsuits can take years and be expensive for everyone, but winning one usually gets the former employee reinstated with back pay and reimbursement for legal expenses. Cheaper to offer early retirement incentives or to keep the position open a year while re-writing the position description so it's not the same job.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 05, 2020, 02:44:07 AM
Holy Family College (WI) is closing:

https://blog.holyfamilycollege.edu/news/holy-family-college-to-discontinue-all-operations-at-the-end-of-summer-term (https://blog.holyfamilycollege.edu/news/holy-family-college-to-discontinue-all-operations-at-the-end-of-summer-term).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on May 05, 2020, 08:10:03 AM
Quote from: spork on May 05, 2020, 02:44:07 AM
Holy Family College (WI) is closing:

https://blog.holyfamilycollege.edu/news/holy-family-college-to-discontinue-all-operations-at-the-end-of-summer-term (https://blog.holyfamilycollege.edu/news/holy-family-college-to-discontinue-all-operations-at-the-end-of-summer-term).

Après eux, le déluge.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 05, 2020, 08:13:01 AM
Quote from: spork on May 05, 2020, 02:44:07 AM
Holy Family College (WI) is closing:

https://blog.holyfamilycollege.edu/news/holy-family-college-to-discontinue-all-operations-at-the-end-of-summer-term (https://blog.holyfamilycollege.edu/news/holy-family-college-to-discontinue-all-operations-at-the-end-of-summer-term).

Their Wikipedia entry says that they had about 500 students.  Looks like another tiny school where the margins just weren't sustainable any longer.

It's a great shame.  They were a college for 85 years, and had been a school for half a century before that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: whynotbc on May 05, 2020, 05:04:02 PM
At the decent but not highly ranked SLAC I am at, we are over 15% above target. Not clear what the financial aid is looking like nor if we are planning on larger melt then normal. Typically, at this point we are 5-10% above target and end up about 4-8% above target, which has put stress on the student services side of things.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on May 05, 2020, 05:56:28 PM
Quote from: whynotbc on May 05, 2020, 05:04:02 PM
At the decent but not highly ranked SLAC I am at, we are over 15% above target. Not clear what the financial aid is looking like nor if we are planning on larger melt then normal. Typically, at this point we are 5-10% above target and end up about 4-8% above target, which has put stress on the student services side of things.

Impressive! That is not the situation at my decent but not highly ranked LAC. We've been making our classes just barely, and it seems like the primary criteria is "Can you fog a mirror?" And we wonder why our graduation rate trends downward.
I'm guessing your tuition discount rate is 50% or lower? Possibly still in the 30s? Ah, those were the days. I won't even share ours. It is code-red bad. A full pay student is like a unicorn around here. I'm sure they exist somewhere, in a land far away, where net tuition revenue is stable or increasing.

Also, I noticed your name is 'whynotbc'. This is probably not why you chose your name, but I went to Boston University and Boston College (BC) sucks! (If you aren't familiar with the BU/BC rivalry, then this will seem random and unnecessary.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 06, 2020, 12:16:27 PM
Ohio's expenditure on higher ed is slashed:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/05/06/ohio-cut-public-college-funding-110-million-over-2-months (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/05/06/ohio-cut-public-college-funding-110-million-over-2-months).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: bacardiandlime on May 06, 2020, 12:19:06 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 05, 2020, 05:56:28 PM
Also, I noticed your name is 'whynotbc'. This is probably not why you chose your name, but I went to Boston University and Boston College (BC) sucks! (If you aren't familiar with the BU/BC rivalry, then this will seem random and unnecessary.)

I assumed it was a reference to British Columbia!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 07, 2020, 07:14:23 AM
Quote from: spork on May 06, 2020, 12:16:27 PM
Ohio's expenditure on higher ed is slashed:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/05/06/ohio-cut-public-college-funding-110-million-over-2-months (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/05/06/ohio-cut-public-college-funding-110-million-over-2-months).

Not unexpected in the midst of an economic upheaval...but boy, that's going to hurt.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 07, 2020, 08:34:36 AM
Quote from: bacardiandlime on May 03, 2020, 07:13:32 AM
I guarantee nobody is being asked to teach engineering or medicine for free.

As regular college courses for which people would otherwise command a great salary?  I agree with probably not.

As a continuing stream of requests for outreach for the poor, underprivileged, underserved, and underrepresented?  For the past 15ish years, I have had more than one request a month for my time and energy in that way.  When I'm at elite enough institutions, I have more than one request per week in my email box. 

In the past month, I am up to about one request per day because of all those students who are being left behind and it would mean so much to them for a STEM professional to adopt a section/group/individual to provide additional activities, if not out and out extended teaching (hint, hint).

If I can't find time to engage with a class, how about just agreeing to mentor a promising student?  Look at those shiny undergrad/grad faces.  How can you say no when someone just needs a little mentoring with regular long-distance calls.

Take on an intern?  We still have slots and students are our future.  Just peruse the attached CVs for students we've already recruited.  It doesn't cost you anything except your time.

Give a webinar as outreach to our really, really special group of deserving faces?  How can you look at those faces and say no?  Have you no heart?

The pitch is always: it's only a few hours of your time and you have so much. 

Yep, and if I only had one of these requests once per year, then I could do it.  However, with the sheer volume of requests, most of them have to be declined or not even read (autofile is my ally) because I have other responsibilities that are paying for my family to live inside and eat regularly.

The discussion where I am often turns to how do we get people to do more outreach including possibly picking up teaching a formal class every so often.  Even paying standard project rates isn't a big enough carrot because we have so many other demands on our time and energy. 

In short, we're asked all the freakin' time and we learn to say no for our own benefit.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Diogenes on May 07, 2020, 09:01:45 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 02, 2020, 08:32:27 PM

Exploitation much?

I might consider it if my dean, provost, and president also worked the semester for free.

They couldn't possibly. They spend too much money on $5 lattes and avocado toast. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 07, 2020, 09:29:30 AM
""Windfall for Small Colleges" (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/07/small-colleges-get-millions-while-other-colleges-struggle) from IHE.

As with most IHE reporting, this seems like pretty balanced overall.  The "small colleges" in question seem to be getting relatively small amounts of money per the formula, but the headline seems misleading to me.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 08, 2020, 06:44:51 PM
Wells College president  (https://auburnpub.com/news/local/wells-college-may-shut-down-if-students-cant-return-in-fall/article_89a6be32-e07e-58f0-984f-c5c5449bdb60.html)questions continuation.  A small rural school that went coed relatively recently, and tried a big drop in tuition to attract more students.
"If New York State continues its mandate that our campus remain closed through all or part of the fall semester, Wells simply will not receive enough revenue to continue operations," Gibralter said. "A substantial amount of the College's operating budget comes from room and board revenue, so without enough students participating in our residential life, the College cannot afford to reopen."

Motto---Where bright futures thrive
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 09, 2020, 04:36:02 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 08, 2020, 06:44:51 PM
Wells College president  (https://auburnpub.com/news/local/wells-college-may-shut-down-if-students-cant-return-in-fall/article_89a6be32-e07e-58f0-984f-c5c5449bdb60.html)questions continuation.  A small rural school that went coed relatively recently, and tried a big drop in tuition to attract more students.
"If New York State continues its mandate that our campus remain closed through all or part of the fall semester, Wells simply will not receive enough revenue to continue operations," Gibralter said. "A substantial amount of the College's operating budget comes from room and board revenue, so without enough students participating in our residential life, the College cannot afford to reopen."

Motto---Where bright futures thrive

I commend him for his honesty with the public.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 09, 2020, 05:35:22 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 08, 2020, 06:38:53 PM

This recently hit the wire
https://www.newstribune.com/news/local/story/2020/may/08/lu-declares-financial-exigency/826858/

You can't even find Lincoln University of Missouri in the database. It would have been interesting to see their ratings prior to this announcement. My college has a "high" rating. Sure, Jan.

Copied from another thread for reference.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 09, 2020, 07:26:39 AM
Wells College was already on probation with Middle States for finances and planning: https://auburnpub.com/news/local/wells-college-officials-hopeful-about-probation-status-ending/article_379fdcff-614e-5cf3-aa0b-a3418c02033e.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 09, 2020, 09:46:40 AM
Regular readers of this thread might want to see the daily updates on higher ed institutions and state support at http://recessionreality.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 11, 2020, 02:23:23 PM
Medaille College in Buffalo, NY. President claims emergency powers, faculty immediately vote no confidence (https://buffalonews.com/2020/05/08/medaille-faculty-accuse-president-of-using-covid-19-to-cover-mismanagement/). The college of about 2,200 students has 79 full-time instructional staff. Edmit (https://edmit.me/college/medaille-college-new-york) financial health = low; Forbes financial health grade = D.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on May 11, 2020, 04:33:53 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 11, 2020, 02:23:23 PM
Edmit (https://edmit.me/college/medaille-college-new-york) financial health = low; Forbes financial health grade = D.

Damn, they must be really doing poorly if those are their scores. My institution is ranked "high" and Forbes gave us a C rating and I'm still not sleeping well given the numbers and projections I have seen.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 11, 2020, 06:37:40 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 11, 2020, 04:33:53 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 11, 2020, 02:23:23 PM
Edmit (https://edmit.me/college/medaille-college-new-york) financial health = low; Forbes financial health grade = D.

Damn, they must be really doing poorly if those are their scores. My institution is ranked "high" and Forbes gave us a C rating and I'm still not sleeping well given the numbers and projections I have seen.

Edmit lists a great many institutions, a number of which have been in the news lately because of their finances, as "high"-ly ranked.  I'm not sure I see the point if Forbes' grades are accurate.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 12, 2020, 06:53:47 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 11, 2020, 04:33:53 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 11, 2020, 02:23:23 PM
Edmit (https://edmit.me/college/medaille-college-new-york) financial health = low; Forbes financial health grade = D.

Damn, they must be really doing poorly if those are their scores. My institution is ranked "high" and Forbes gave us a C rating and I'm still not sleeping well given the numbers and projections I have seen.
I suspect that there are no emergency powers available to the president that will improve the situation.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 12, 2020, 09:46:52 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 12, 2020, 06:53:47 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 11, 2020, 04:33:53 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 11, 2020, 02:23:23 PM
Edmit (https://edmit.me/college/medaille-college-new-york) financial health = low; Forbes financial health grade = D.

Damn, they must be really doing poorly if those are their scores. My institution is ranked "high" and Forbes gave us a C rating and I'm still not sleeping well given the numbers and projections I have seen.
I suspect that there are no emergency powers available to the president that will improve the situation.

Not unless he has access to some very convincing counterfeiters. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sonoamused on May 12, 2020, 11:25:59 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 08, 2020, 06:44:51 PM
Wells College president  (https://auburnpub.com/news/local/wells-college-may-shut-down-if-students-cant-return-in-fall/article_89a6be32-e07e-58f0-984f-c5c5449bdb60.html)questions continuation.  A small rural school that went coed relatively recently, and tried a big drop in tuition to attract more students.
"If New York State continues its mandate that our campus remain closed through all or part of the fall semester, Wells simply will not receive enough revenue to continue operations," Gibralter said. "A substantial amount of the College's operating budget comes from room and board revenue, so without enough students participating in our residential life, the College cannot afford to reopen."

Motto---Where bright futures thrive

Wells has struggled for a long time.    I interviewed there quite some time ago, and while there were a lot of things about it that impressed me, I am still not sure how it was it is business then.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 13, 2020, 08:57:36 AM
Said before, vote Dem  (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/13/house-dems-propose-billions-states-and-colleges-republicans-oppose-bill).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 13, 2020, 09:22:02 AM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/education/universities-face-another-challenge-amid-coronavirus-crisis-fewer-graduate-students-n1205611
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 13, 2020, 11:05:27 AM
Northwestern (https://www.northwestern.edu/coronavirus-covid-19-updates/developments/financial-update.html) is suspending all retirement contributions until the end of fall; Johns Hopkins (http://chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://hr.jhu.edu/wp-content/uploads/Suspension-of-JHU-Retirement-Contribution-April-2020.pdf) for a year.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 13, 2020, 11:43:32 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 13, 2020, 09:22:02 AM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/education/universities-face-another-challenge-amid-coronavirus-crisis-fewer-graduate-students-n1205611

Didn't this get started after the 2016 election with getting rid of lots of foreign grad students and researcehrs?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on May 13, 2020, 11:55:09 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 13, 2020, 11:05:27 AM
Northwestern (https://www.northwestern.edu/coronavirus-covid-19-updates/developments/financial-update.html) is suspending all retirement contributions until the end of fall; Johns Hopkins (http://chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://hr.jhu.edu/wp-content/uploads/Suspension-of-JHU-Retirement-Contribution-April-2020.pdf) for a year.

Us too.  For an "indefinite" period.  FWIW, I think this is their alternative to layoffs and furloughs.  Not that those will not be real possibilities once we find out what fall's enrollment numbers are.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 13, 2020, 01:25:18 PM
AAUP taking action:

https://actionnetwork.org/letters/fund-aid-to-state-and-local-governments?source=direct_link&fbclid=IwAR1r7xiNYDdBE98-LYkjmboBUpuen9v8i5XuE5xlwot3hi9KZkPVt-8nrO0
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on May 13, 2020, 02:35:42 PM

Another merger. This time Pine Manor College will be merging with Boston College.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/13/live-updates-latest-news-coronavirus-and-higher-education
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 13, 2020, 02:56:25 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 13, 2020, 02:35:42 PM

Another merger. This time Pine Manor College will be merging with Boston College.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/13/live-updates-latest-news-coronavirus-and-higher-education

This is fundamentally a real estate deal: BC gets the campus in exchange for taking on Pine Manor's debt. In two years there won't be anything "Pine Manor" anymore.

No way any faculty or staff cut loose from Pine Manor will land jobs at BC.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on May 13, 2020, 04:34:15 PM
Quote from: spork on May 13, 2020, 02:56:25 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 13, 2020, 02:35:42 PM

Another merger. This time Pine Manor College will be merging with Boston College.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/13/live-updates-latest-news-coronavirus-and-higher-education

This is fundamentally a real estate deal: BC gets the campus in exchange for taking on Pine Manor's debt. In two years there won't be anything "Pine Manor" anymore.

No way any faculty or staff cut loose from Pine Manor will land jobs at BC.

Yes, of course.

What caught my eye in the article was the sentence: Pine Manor enrolls 423 students, according to the most recent federal data.

There is no way, no way, any State, other donor, AAUP sponsored petition, political party, the Feds, or anybody else is willing to financially save such tiny institutions, and for good reasons.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on May 13, 2020, 05:31:21 PM
Pine Manor and BC have been sort of connected for awhile anyway, I think.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on May 13, 2020, 07:21:57 PM
Quote from: dismalist on May 13, 2020, 04:34:15 PM

This is fundamentally a real estate deal: BC gets the campus in exchange for taking on Pine Manor's debt. In two years there won't be anything "Pine Manor" anymore.


'Killing Me Softly?'
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 14, 2020, 05:35:13 AM
Missouri Western cuts 30% of faculty as part of substantial program cuts (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/14/missouri-western-cuts-quarter-faculty-along-programs-history-and-more)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 14, 2020, 08:40:36 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 14, 2020, 05:35:13 AM
Missouri Western cuts 30% of faculty as part of substantial program cuts (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/14/missouri-western-cuts-quarter-faculty-along-programs-history-and-more)
A brand-new board and administration took a look at the budget critically and were shocked. The story implies that the previous administration and board had not done so in the last decade or so.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 14, 2020, 09:16:23 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 14, 2020, 08:40:36 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 14, 2020, 05:35:13 AM
Missouri Western cuts 30% of faculty as part of substantial program cuts (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/14/missouri-western-cuts-quarter-faculty-along-programs-history-and-more)
A brand-new board and administration took a look at the budget critically and were shocked. The story implies that the previous administration and board had not done so in the last decade or so.

Yes. But not much of a surprise. I see all sorts of leadership failures -- no real planning beyond the next fiscal year or two, no one acting on long-term trends. Hope springs eternal in higher ed administration.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on May 14, 2020, 09:35:15 AM
Quote from: spork on May 14, 2020, 09:16:23 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 14, 2020, 08:40:36 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 14, 2020, 05:35:13 AM
Missouri Western cuts 30% of faculty as part of substantial program cuts (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/14/missouri-western-cuts-quarter-faculty-along-programs-history-and-more)
A brand-new board and administration took a look at the budget critically and were shocked. The story implies that the previous administration and board had not done so in the last decade or so.

Yes. But not much of a surprise. I see all sorts of leadership failures -- no real planning beyond the next fiscal year or two, no one acting on long-term trends. Hope springs eternal in higher ed administration.

This school has a four year graduation rate of 13.0% and a six year graduation rate of 27.6%. 

At some point you really have to ask why we push so many unprepared students into college. And to think of the debt they will incur with nothing to show for it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 14, 2020, 10:21:42 AM
Duke (https://today.duke.edu/2020/05/president-price-announces-new-steps-secure-dukes-financial-future) is also suspending retirement contributions for a year, plus a 10% salary cut for employees earning $285 000 and above.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 14, 2020, 10:31:26 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 14, 2020, 10:21:42 AM
Duke (https://today.duke.edu/2020/05/president-price-announces-new-steps-secure-dukes-financial-future) is also suspending retirement contributions for a year, plus a 10% salary cut for employees earning $285 000 and above.

Oh, the humanity!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 14, 2020, 10:57:10 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 14, 2020, 10:31:26 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 14, 2020, 10:21:42 AM
Duke (https://today.duke.edu/2020/05/president-price-announces-new-steps-secure-dukes-financial-future) is also suspending retirement contributions for a year, plus a 10% salary cut for employees earning $285 000 and above.

Oh, the humanity!

Hey now. That thirty grand was designated for private HS tuition!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: quasihumanist on May 14, 2020, 11:31:55 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 14, 2020, 09:35:15 AM
At some point you really have to ask why we push so many unprepared students into college. And to think of the debt they will incur with nothing to show for it.

Look at what's happening now.  If you don't have a college education(*), then there's a 25% chance you'll be deemed essential, in which case you get to be exposed to coronavirus all day so that you get sick and die, or a 73% chance you'll be deemed nonessential, in which case you're required to stay at home with no income so that you eventually run out of money, can't buy food, and starve to death.  (The remaining 2% is if your family has lots of money or connections.)

Is it any wonder that people hope against all hope that they somehow magically become prepared for college?

(*) This note is to help you understand the definition of "college education" I'm using.  Some people go through 4 or 6 years of college and maybe get a degree but never get a college education (in many cases because they were never ready for college), and a few people manage to get a college education on their own without going to college (but these people were all prepared for college, even if they didn't know it).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on May 14, 2020, 11:52:27 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 14, 2020, 10:21:42 AM
Duke (https://today.duke.edu/2020/05/president-price-announces-new-steps-secure-dukes-financial-future) is also suspending retirement contributions for a year, plus a 10% salary cut for employees earning $285 000 and above.

Ouch!!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 14, 2020, 12:13:25 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 14, 2020, 08:40:36 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 14, 2020, 05:35:13 AM
Missouri Western cuts 30% of faculty as part of substantial program cuts (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/14/missouri-western-cuts-quarter-faculty-along-programs-history-and-more)
A brand-new board and administration took a look at the budget critically and were shocked. The story implies that the previous administration and board had not done so in the last decade or so.

It does give the impression of a can being kicked repeatedly down the wall until it came up against a solid brick wall.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 14, 2020, 01:33:49 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 14, 2020, 12:13:25 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 14, 2020, 08:40:36 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 14, 2020, 05:35:13 AM
Missouri Western cuts 30% of faculty as part of substantial program cuts (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/14/missouri-western-cuts-quarter-faculty-along-programs-history-and-more)
A brand-new board and administration took a look at the budget critically and were shocked. The story implies that the previous administration and board had not done so in the last decade or so.

It does give the impression of a can being kicked repeatedly down the wall until it came up against a solid brick wall.

My husband has pointed out recently that a lot of the small institutions that were slowly circling the drain just had the drain expand out to their trajectory.  It may be cold comfort, but Missouri Western isn't flat out closing; it's "just" making cuts to the programs that have few students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 14, 2020, 01:50:42 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 14, 2020, 09:35:15 AM
Quote from: spork on May 14, 2020, 09:16:23 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 14, 2020, 08:40:36 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 14, 2020, 05:35:13 AM
Missouri Western cuts 30% of faculty as part of substantial program cuts (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/14/missouri-western-cuts-quarter-faculty-along-programs-history-and-more)
A brand-new board and administration took a look at the budget critically and were shocked. The story implies that the previous administration and board had not done so in the last decade or so.

Yes. But not much of a surprise. I see all sorts of leadership failures -- no real planning beyond the next fiscal year or two, no one acting on long-term trends. Hope springs eternal in higher ed administration.

This school has a four year graduation rate of 13.0% and a six year graduation rate of 27.6%. 

At some point you really have to ask why we push so many unprepared students into college. And to think of the debt they will incur with nothing to show for it.

There are institutions that are trying to serve students who have not been on the college track, but some of whom are capable of college with a significant amount of extra help. That is generally seen as a societal good.

It is tough, because of the terrible graduation rates. Comparing with colleges that have high numbers makes them look bad, but the real comparison may be with 0%, which is the real alternative for that pool.

It is also tough because it is expensive to provide the extra support.

It is also tough because most of the students can't afford tuition.

Pine Manor seemed to be trying to do that as a private college, which does not seem possible. Missouri Western is trying to do it as a public, with taxpayers covering the cost of making those students bigger parts of society and the economy than they would have been. But Missouri was not paying the cost. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on May 14, 2020, 02:34:48 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 14, 2020, 01:50:42 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 14, 2020, 09:35:15 AM
Quote from: spork on May 14, 2020, 09:16:23 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 14, 2020, 08:40:36 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 14, 2020, 05:35:13 AM
Missouri Western cuts 30% of faculty as part of substantial program cuts (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/14/missouri-western-cuts-quarter-faculty-along-programs-history-and-more)
A brand-new board and administration took a look at the budget critically and were shocked. The story implies that the previous administration and board had not done so in the last decade or so.

Yes. But not much of a surprise. I see all sorts of leadership failures -- no real planning beyond the next fiscal year or two, no one acting on long-term trends. Hope springs eternal in higher ed administration.

This school has a four year graduation rate of 13.0% and a six year graduation rate of 27.6%. 

At some point you really have to ask why we push so many unprepared students into college. And to think of the debt they will incur with nothing to show for it.

There are institutions that are trying to serve students who have not been on the college track, but some of whom are capable of college with a significant amount of extra help. That is generally seen as a societal good.

It is tough, because of the terrible graduation rates. Comparing with colleges that have high numbers makes them look bad, but the real comparison may be with 0%, which is the real alternative for that pool.

It is also tough because it is expensive to provide the extra support.

It is also tough because most of the students can't afford tuition.

Pine Manor seemed to be trying to do that as a private college, which does not seem possible. Missouri Western is trying to do it as a public, with taxpayers covering the cost of making those students bigger parts of society and the economy than they would have been. But Missouri was not paying the cost.

I don't doubt that the extra support would be helpful in getting such students to succeed.  But I'm not sure that a 4 year school with faculty who are primarily doctorally prepared is the best way to do that. 

Québec has a system known as CEGEP which (as near as I can tell) is a 1-2 year transition period between high school and university and is a requirement for admission to a university.  I have no idea what their faculty's credentials are, but for those students who require the intensive hand holding, social and other support needed to succeed in a 4 year school, presumably their faculty are better prepared to ensure readiness for a 4 year school. And perhaps those teaching at a university need spend less time  teaching basic concepts of math and writing. 

I speak only for myself, as one who teaches in programs where students are generally well prepared.  If I wanted to spend my days teaching remedial whatever, I would have become a high school teacher and not bothered with achieving anything past my undergraduate education.  As always, YMMV, but the problem of unprepared students is a real one that some students may well overcome, but leaves others at risk for nothing but a 5 figure student loan to deal with.

If we have any Québéquois faculty here, perhaps they can correct whatever errors I have made in this.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on May 14, 2020, 03:03:39 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on May 14, 2020, 02:34:48 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 14, 2020, 01:50:42 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 14, 2020, 09:35:15 AM
Quote from: spork on May 14, 2020, 09:16:23 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 14, 2020, 08:40:36 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 14, 2020, 05:35:13 AM
Missouri Western cuts 30% of faculty as part of substantial program cuts (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/14/missouri-western-cuts-quarter-faculty-along-programs-history-and-more)
A brand-new board and administration took a look at the budget critically and were shocked. The story implies that the previous administration and board had not done so in the last decade or so.

Yes. But not much of a surprise. I see all sorts of leadership failures -- no real planning beyond the next fiscal year or two, no one acting on long-term trends. Hope springs eternal in higher ed administration.

This school has a four year graduation rate of 13.0% and a six year graduation rate of 27.6%. 

At some point you really have to ask why we push so many unprepared students into college. And to think of the debt they will incur with nothing to show for it.

There are institutions that are trying to serve students who have not been on the college track, but some of whom are capable of college with a significant amount of extra help. That is generally seen as a societal good.

It is tough, because of the terrible graduation rates. Comparing with colleges that have high numbers makes them look bad, but the real comparison may be with 0%, which is the real alternative for that pool.

It is also tough because it is expensive to provide the extra support.

It is also tough because most of the students can't afford tuition.

Pine Manor seemed to be trying to do that as a private college, which does not seem possible. Missouri Western is trying to do it as a public, with taxpayers covering the cost of making those students bigger parts of society and the economy than they would have been. But Missouri was not paying the cost.

I don't doubt that the extra support would be helpful in getting such students to succeed.  But I'm not sure that a 4 year school with faculty who are primarily doctorally prepared is the best way to do that. 

Québec has a system known as CEGEP which (as near as I can tell) is a 1-2 year transition period between high school and university and is a requirement for admission to a university.  I have no idea what their faculty's credentials are, but for those students who require the intensive hand holding, social and other support needed to succeed in a 4 year school, presumably their faculty are better prepared to ensure readiness for a 4 year school. And perhaps those teaching at a university need spend less time  teaching basic concepts of math and writing. 

I speak only for myself, as one who teaches in programs where students are generally well prepared.  If I wanted to spend my days teaching remedial whatever, I would have become a high school teacher and not bothered with achieving anything past my undergraduate education.  As always, YMMV, but the problem of unprepared students is a real one that some students may well overcome, but leaves others at risk for nothing but a 5 figure student loan to deal with.

If we have any Québéquois faculty here, perhaps they can correct whatever errors I have made in this.

I have taught at a CEGEP, and know many people who do.

As a rule, faculty there have graduate degrees in their discipline. (When I left, there was grumbling about how they should stop hiring people with doctorates, because we always left. I have my own thoughts on that, but I also know that many people with PhD's now happily stay.) But they don't have -- or, generally, start with -- education credentials. In that sense, the qualifications are more like those for community colleges/junior colleges than they are for high schools. As a rule, people hired at one aren't qualified for the other.

And, yes, they are something like a hybrid between high school and higher ed. 16/17-year olds, who have finished grade 11. They attend CEGEP either as a bridge to college, or to earn terminal professional certificates. That is, they either track academic or trade.

Within Quebec, students who complete the pre-university track basically earn a year of GenEd/Intro courses, and can then complete their follow-on programs in 3 years.

Whether or not these students are better prepared for college is an interesting question. They certainly are treated in a more "collegiate" manner than the high schools of which I know. But many of them really struggle with the shift in requirements, in ways not unfamiliar to those of you who get them a year later in Freshman transition programs.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 14, 2020, 03:18:17 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on May 14, 2020, 03:03:39 PM


I have taught at a CEGEP, and know many people who do.


I did too, back in the Stone Age.

Quote

As a rule, faculty there have graduate degrees in their discipline. (When I left, there was grumbling about how they should stop hiring people with doctorates, because we always left. I have my own thoughts on that, but I also know that many people with PhD's now happily stay.) But they don't have -- or, generally, start with -- education credentials. In that sense, the qualifications are more like those for community colleges/junior colleges than they are for high schools. As a rule, people hired at one aren't qualified for the other.

And, yes, they are something like a hybrid between high school and higher ed. 16/17-year olds, who have finished grade 11. They attend CEGEP either as a bridge to college, or to earn terminal professional certificates. That is, they either track academic or trade.

Within Quebec, students who complete the pre-university track basically earn a year of GenEd/Intro courses, and can then complete their follow-on programs in 3 years.

Whether or not these students are better prepared for college is an interesting question. They certainly are treated in a more "collegiate" manner than the high schools of which I know. But many of them really struggle with the shift in requirements, in ways not unfamiliar to those of you who get them a year later in Freshman transition programs.

I'm not sure if it's still a thing, but when I graduated from high school in Quebec, I skipped CEGEP by going to the Maritimes, where Quebec students were accepted into first year university. So it shaved a year off, since pre-university CEGEP was 2 years, with 3 years for university, vs. 4 years for university in the Maritimes. There were a lot of good students who did that, since CEGEP had a reputation for being largely devoted to partying, etc.

So, at least then, some of the best prepared students out of high school skipped CEGEP entirely, so the quality of students coming out of CEGEP would be a bit skewed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Bonnie on May 15, 2020, 07:26:53 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 14, 2020, 10:31:26 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 14, 2020, 10:21:42 AM
Duke (https://today.duke.edu/2020/05/president-price-announces-new-steps-secure-dukes-financial-future) is also suspending retirement contributions for a year, plus a 10% salary cut for employees earning $285 000 and above.

Oh, the humanity!

I believe it's only a 10% cut on salary in excess of $285,000. So if I make $290,000, I have a salary cut of $500. So hopefully those folks will still be able to make ends meet.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 15, 2020, 09:04:54 AM
Discussion about the fate of Wells College: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/15/wells-college-exemplifies-which-institutions-stand-lose-most-pandemic (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/15/wells-college-exemplifies-which-institutions-stand-lose-most-pandemic).

What's not mentioned:

Wells was in deficit in 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013, and 2017. As of FY 2018, its FTE undergraduate enrollment was only 450 students. And it sits within about an hour's drive of Rochester, Syracuse, Ithaca, SUNY-Cortland, and SUNY-Oswego, in an area that has suffered economic and probably population decline because of de-industrialization.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on May 15, 2020, 09:41:29 AM
Quote from: spork on May 15, 2020, 09:04:54 AM
Discussion about the fate of Wells College: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/15/wells-college-exemplifies-which-institutions-stand-lose-most-pandemic (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/15/wells-college-exemplifies-which-institutions-stand-lose-most-pandemic).

What's not mentioned:

Wells was in deficit in 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013, and 2017. As of FY 2018, its FTE undergraduate enrollment was only 450 students. And it sits within about an hour's drive of Rochester, Syracuse, Ithaca, SUNY-Cortland, and SUNY-Oswego, in an area that has suffered economic and probably population decline because of de-industrialization.

I wonder how much the Excelsior Scholarship program is affecting enrollments at all private colleges in NY. The program started in 2017.

https://www.ny.gov/programs/tuition-free-degree-program-excelsior-scholarship
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 15, 2020, 09:54:49 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on May 14, 2020, 03:03:39 PM


I have taught at a CEGEP, and know many people who do.


I've never taught at one, but I attended one (as did at least one other forumite I know of), and know many people (all with PhDs) who teach there now. I did teach a bit at a university in Québec, though. Credential creep has apparently become a thing, at least in the humanities, as the oversupply spills over. It's incredibly hard to get a CÉGEP gig on the island of Montréal, though. Most of them went through a hiring spree a while ago, and it's really tough to get your foot in the door now.

Quote from: marshwiggle on May 14, 2020, 03:18:17 PM

I'm not sure if it's still a thing, but when I graduated from high school in Quebec, I skipped CEGEP by going to the Maritimes, where Quebec students were accepted into first year university. So it shaved a year off, since pre-university CEGEP was 2 years, with 3 years for university, vs. 4 years for university in the Maritimes. There were a lot of good students who did that, since CEGEP had a reputation for being largely devoted to partying, etc.

I also went to the Maritimes, but doing so in my day (early aughts) required 1 year of CÉGEP.


FWIW, when I taught in Québec, I definitely noticed that the students who'd been through CÉGEP were much better prepared--and stronger--in my intro classes. That noticeable difference disappeared by the time they got to intermediate classes, however.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 15, 2020, 10:18:30 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 15, 2020, 09:41:29 AM
Quote from: spork on May 15, 2020, 09:04:54 AM
Discussion about the fate of Wells College: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/15/wells-college-exemplifies-which-institutions-stand-lose-most-pandemic (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/15/wells-college-exemplifies-which-institutions-stand-lose-most-pandemic).

What's not mentioned:

Wells was in deficit in 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013, and 2017. As of FY 2018, its FTE undergraduate enrollment was only 450 students. And it sits within about an hour's drive of Rochester, Syracuse, Ithaca, SUNY-Cortland, and SUNY-Oswego, in an area that has suffered economic and probably population decline because of de-industrialization.

I wonder how much the Excelsior Scholarship program is affecting enrollments at all private colleges in NY. The program started in 2017.

https://www.ny.gov/programs/tuition-free-degree-program-excelsior-scholarship

An article from last fall indicated that it was only a 5% drop in enrollment overall for the privates in the first year.   (https://www.bizjournals.com/albany/news/2019/10/10/new-york-excelsior-scholarship-private-colleges.html)However, the privates appear to have made changes that may or may not be in their favor.  Wells College, for example, had 18% of the annual budget from study abroad, per Gibralter's letter.  A quick overview of the independent colleges and universities in New York State can be found at: https://cicu.org/publications-research/quick-facts

Spork's comment includes financial shortfalls that would have been entirely before the Excelsior Program went into effect.
Wells College was already on probation with Middle States last summer due to financial planning. (https://www.wells.edu/news/2019/07/8/statement-wells-college-board-trustees-chair-carrie-bolton-92-president-jonathan)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 15, 2020, 10:27:21 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 15, 2020, 09:41:29 AM
Quote from: spork on May 15, 2020, 09:04:54 AM
Discussion about the fate of Wells College: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/15/wells-college-exemplifies-which-institutions-stand-lose-most-pandemic (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/15/wells-college-exemplifies-which-institutions-stand-lose-most-pandemic).

What's not mentioned:

Wells was in deficit in 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013, and 2017. As of FY 2018, its FTE undergraduate enrollment was only 450 students. And it sits within about an hour's drive of Rochester, Syracuse, Ithaca, SUNY-Cortland, and SUNY-Oswego, in an area that has suffered economic and probably population decline because of de-industrialization.

I wonder how much the Excelsior Scholarship program is affecting enrollments at all private colleges in NY. The program started in 2017.

https://www.ny.gov/programs/tuition-free-degree-program-excelsior-scholarship

Probably not very much. The scholarship reduces tuition from ~$5,000 to zero. If that makes a difference in a student's choice of school, it is unlikely that they would have been a positive-net-revenue student at a private school.

The scholarship matters most for students who want to go to SUNY school but can't quite swing the finances.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on May 15, 2020, 05:30:23 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 15, 2020, 09:54:49 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on May 14, 2020, 03:03:39 PM


I have taught at a CEGEP, and know many people who do.


I've never taught at one, but I attended one (as did at least one other forumite I know of), and know many people (all with PhDs) who teach there now. I did teach a bit at a university in Québec, though. Credential creep has apparently become a thing, at least in the humanities, as the oversupply spills over. It's incredibly hard to get a CÉGEP gig on the island of Montréal, though. Most of them went through a hiring spree a while ago, and it's really tough to get your foot in the door now.

Quote from: marshwiggle on May 14, 2020, 03:18:17 PM

I'm not sure if it's still a thing, but when I graduated from high school in Quebec, I skipped CEGEP by going to the Maritimes, where Quebec students were accepted into first year university. So it shaved a year off, since pre-university CEGEP was 2 years, with 3 years for university, vs. 4 years for university in the Maritimes. There were a lot of good students who did that, since CEGEP had a reputation for being largely devoted to partying, etc.

I also went to the Maritimes, but doing so in my day (early aughts) required 1 year of CÉGEP.


FWIW, when I taught in Québec, I definitely noticed that the students who'd been through CÉGEP were much better prepared--and stronger--in my intro classes. That noticeable difference disappeared by the time they got to intermediate classes, however.

Everyone teaching that I know who was hired in the last 15 years has a PhD, and, yes, the jobs are hard to get, at least in Montreal and Quebec City.

I also did my undergraduate in the Maritimes, way back in the day when Ontario still had grade 13. I'm not sure what deal the CEGEP students got, but there was definitely an age spread among the incoming traditional age students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 15, 2020, 06:24:51 PM
Quote from: spork on May 15, 2020, 09:04:54 AM
Discussion about the fate of Wells College: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/15/wells-college-exemplifies-which-institutions-stand-lose-most-pandemic (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/15/wells-college-exemplifies-which-institutions-stand-lose-most-pandemic).

What's not mentioned:

Wells was in deficit in 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013, and 2017. As of FY 2018, its FTE undergraduate enrollment was only 450 students. And it sits within about an hour's drive of Rochester, Syracuse, Ithaca, SUNY-Cortland, and SUNY-Oswego, in an area that has suffered economic and probably population decline because of de-industrialization.

President Gilbralter offers more candid insight in a podcast  (https://anchor.fm/the-debrief-podcast/embed/episodes/98-How-Wells-College-Could-Close-Forever-ee2p22)with a local reporter. It provides some good insight into the thinking that is going on behind the scenes at other places.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 16, 2020, 04:06:47 AM
WBUR Here & Now story on private colleges closing; mostly an interview with MacMurray College's president:

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/05/13/coronavirus-small-college-closures (https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/05/13/coronavirus-small-college-closures).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 16, 2020, 09:40:20 AM
Quote from: spork on May 16, 2020, 04:06:47 AM
WBUR Here & Now story on private colleges closing; mostly an interview with MacMurray College's president:

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/05/13/coronavirus-small-college-closures (https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/05/13/coronavirus-small-college-closures).

Beverly Rodgers ended up closing MacMurray during her first year as president. She had been provost for a couple years and was only supposed to be president for a couple years per https://www.mac.edu/news/press-release/3671/macmurray-college-names-dr-beverly-rodgers-president

That indicates to me that somebody knew MacMurray was in trouble last summer.  "third year in deficit" from spork's article is definitely not good.  Hoping that a deal would get them through another year is not long-term thinking.

One of the comments under spork's article mentions half million dollar salaries.  No one at a place like MacMurray makes half a million dollars.  I'd be surprised if as many as five people including the president made more than $100k.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 16, 2020, 12:19:32 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 16, 2020, 09:40:20 AM
Quote from: spork on May 16, 2020, 04:06:47 AM
WBUR Here & Now story on private colleges closing; mostly an interview with MacMurray College's president:

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/05/13/coronavirus-small-college-closures (https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/05/13/coronavirus-small-college-closures).

Beverly Rodgers ended up closing MacMurray during her first year as president. She had been provost for a couple years and was only supposed to be president for a couple years per https://www.mac.edu/news/press-release/3671/macmurray-college-names-dr-beverly-rodgers-president

That indicates to me that somebody knew MacMurray was in trouble last summer.  "third year in deficit" from spork's article is definitely not good.  Hoping that a deal would get them through another year is not long-term thinking.

One of the comments under spork's article mentions half million dollar salaries.  No one at a place like MacMurray makes half a million dollars.  I'd be surprised if as many as five people including the president made more than $100k.

The president is quoted as saying, "Higher education is not nimble. We are steeped in tradition, and we are not always able to move as quickly as we need to."

That statement is apparently quite true for MacMurray, and a cause of its end. The statement is not true for higher education as a whole, though. in the vigorous part of higher ed, we are both steeped in tradition and nimble. Are leaders of the small, shrinking and non-nimble institutions in a bubble where they only talk with each other and read only the dire news in places like this thread?


The WBUR comments must have been edited because the "Humanist" no longer has a number attached to the claim that MacMurray's Marxist Methodists fleeced the proletariat to enrich themselves.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on May 16, 2020, 03:49:51 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 16, 2020, 12:19:32 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 16, 2020, 09:40:20 AM
Quote from: spork on May 16, 2020, 04:06:47 AM
WBUR Here & Now story on private colleges closing; mostly an interview with MacMurray College's president:

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/05/13/coronavirus-small-college-closures (https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/05/13/coronavirus-small-college-closures).

Beverly Rodgers ended up closing MacMurray during her first year as president. She had been provost for a couple years and was only supposed to be president for a couple years per https://www.mac.edu/news/press-release/3671/macmurray-college-names-dr-beverly-rodgers-president

That indicates to me that somebody knew MacMurray was in trouble last summer.  "third year in deficit" from spork's article is definitely not good.  Hoping that a deal would get them through another year is not long-term thinking.

One of the comments under spork's article mentions half million dollar salaries.  No one at a place like MacMurray makes half a million dollars.  I'd be surprised if as many as five people including the president made more than $100k.

The president is quoted as saying, "Higher education is not nimble. We are steeped in tradition, and we are not always able to move as quickly as we need to."

That statement is apparently quite true for MacMurray, and a cause of its end. The statement is not true for higher education as a whole, though. in the vigorous part of higher ed, we are both steeped in tradition and nimble. Are leaders of the small, shrinking and non-nimble institutions in a bubble where they only talk with each other and read only the dire news in places like this thread?


The WBUR comments must have been edited because the "Humanist" no longer has a number attached to the claim that MacMurray's Marxist Methodists fleeced the proletariat to enrich themselves.

This has been the point I have been trying to make at my LAC. We aren't nimble. We see three to five majors total in a program with 4 to 5 full time faculty and refuse to reimagine the major, or to question whether that department would best serve the college with no major and more service-oriented courses that would fill.  But no, we have to offer "A Seminar in Tilting at Windmills" to our constant two seniors a year because they "need it to graduate" while other programs burst at the seams with 40+ students per class. Apparently we can't possible reallocate labor within an institution in a way that actually serves the needs of the majority of the students who are clearly voting with their feet. No, our primary objective is to continue to cater to the needs of the 4 to 5 faculty who like their status quo, who like their 2-4 person classes, and who don't want to see anything change, damned the sustainability of the entire institution.  Folks aren't nimble because they, selfishly, have no incentive to care about others. You would think it would be the job of administration to see this inefficiency and correct it, but that's not happening. Hence, we aren't nimble.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 16, 2020, 04:00:45 PM
The problem I see is being nimble in a way that matters and knowing what was tried recently and abandoned.

For example, starting an online program was a great idea...more than ten years ago.  Doubling down on MacMurray's all-but-non-existent online program now is a lost cause.  The only growth possibility is the RN to BSN program on the national market.

MacMurray cut majors and then announced new majors with great fanfare in 2015. (https://www.sj-r.com/article/20150526/NEWS/150529562/1997/%E2%80%9D//www.googletagmanager.com/ns.html?id=GTM-PXCWJQ%E2%80%9D).  Looking at MacMurray's current majors shows no entry for data analytics, the newish major that would be unique enough in the region to appeal to a reasonable number of different prospective students. (https://www.mac.edu/academics/majors)


In Dec 2019, MacMurray announced a fundraising goal for this fiscal year that quoted Dr. Rodgers extensively regarding possible plans.
(https://wlds.com/news/macmurray-tackling-ambitious-fundraising-to-cover-budget-shortfall/). Reading the plans indicate that Dr. Rodgers doesn't know what's already been tried in recent memory, nor why certain actions generally aren't taken like premed being almost nothing like a good BSN program.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on May 18, 2020, 10:47:49 PM
Have read on this thread and others of a widespread wish to have endowments for colleges to help pay a college's way. Well, having an endowment will not help at all, as the following explains, in contemporary communicationese, by a sitting university president:

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/a-university-president-responds-to-those-who-have-suggested-the-school-should-dip-into-the-endowment (https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/a-university-president-responds-to-those-who-have-suggested-the-school-should-dip-into-the-endowment)

:-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 19, 2020, 06:39:17 AM
That's pretty funny, dismalist.

A serious answer comes from Cornell. (https://cornellsun.com/2020/04/24/cornell-cant-use-its-7-2-billion-endowment-to-help-mitigate-covid-19-losses-heres-why/). There's still a healthy dollop of "we're not really rich", but it also has details.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 19, 2020, 11:08:22 AM
Henderson State University is trying to explain to legislators that its CARES funding is still not enough to cover their virus-related shortfalls in revenues:


https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/may/18/hsu-needs-funds-system-chief-insists-20/


They were at some pains to point out that half of the CARES funding has to go direct to students, which apparently some still don't understand.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on May 19, 2020, 11:09:46 AM
I don't think this was posted yet...

   https://abc6onyourside.com/news/local/ohio-wesleyan-cutting-10-million-in-staff-programs-and-other-cuts

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 19, 2020, 12:00:24 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 19, 2020, 11:08:22 AM
Henderson State University is trying to explain to legislators that its CARES funding is still not enough to cover their virus-related shortfalls in revenues:


https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/may/18/hsu-needs-funds-system-chief-insists-20/


They were at some pains to point out that half of the CARES funding has to go direct to students, which apparently some still don't understand.

Same situation we are in.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 19, 2020, 12:48:44 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 19, 2020, 12:00:24 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 19, 2020, 11:08:22 AM
Henderson State University is trying to explain to legislators that its CARES funding is still not enough to cover their virus-related shortfalls in revenues:


https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/may/18/hsu-needs-funds-system-chief-insists-20/


They were at some pains to point out that half of the CARES funding has to go direct to students, which apparently some still don't understand.

Same situation we are in.

I expect many institutions are in the position of having a big gap that even the full CARES funding wouldn't cover and  the student half of CARES funding cannot be used to the institution for institutional expenses incurred by students per point 1 on the official FAQ. (https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ope/heerfstudentfaqs.pdf)

Once again, outsiders see a big number and even that big number is nowhere near enough once the details roll in.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 19, 2020, 01:40:39 PM
Quote from: mamselle on May 19, 2020, 11:09:46 AM
I don't think this was posted yet...

   https://abc6onyourside.com/news/local/ohio-wesleyan-cutting-10-million-in-staff-programs-and-other-cuts

M.

They're eliminating 44 non-teaching positions and encouraging early retirements among faculty.  But not at this time threatening to lay any faculty off.  Looks like they're taking aim first at administration, broadly defined.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 19, 2020, 04:45:44 PM
More background on Missouri Western State from CHE (https://www.chronicle.com/article/How-Years-of-Deficit-Spending/248802?key=LwO6j3K0mIGHYkT3aRWpxISPkLc2qIfOEps7NZijcYH-ZQU1ml-YjJTjqvu5kpYRRVNDTy04YVJBNnQ0WExMX05SOXpESF8yYlpLS3ktaVgzMTBNQ0VmUS0yUQ)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Diogenes on May 22, 2020, 07:06:15 AM
Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff about to cut a bunch of faculty positions

https://azdailysun.com/news/local/jobs-lost-as-nau-slashes-budgets-for-fall-semester-due-to-coronavirus/article_d40daf4e-4464-51e8-abaf-1ada41aa8cd3.html

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: stemer on May 22, 2020, 08:26:56 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 19, 2020, 06:39:17 AM
That's pretty funny, dismalist.

A serious answer comes from Cornell. (https://cornellsun.com/2020/04/24/cornell-cant-use-its-7-2-billion-endowment-to-help-mitigate-covid-19-losses-heres-why/). There's still a healthy dollop of "we're not really rich", but it also has details.

I am now confused about how endowed positions work. From the article:

"If endowment spending drops a lot, the University is up a creek. [For example], if I am a professor whose salary is covered by endowment spending, and endowment spending drops, the University has to come up with salary money elsewhere," Ehrenberg said. "Rather than have wild fluctuations in endowments, it is better to have a smooth path."

Are they saying that an endowed professor's salary is not covered in perpetuity by the original gift (and its growth, compound interest and all) but depenbds on new annual endowment giving?
How can this be?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on May 22, 2020, 09:16:04 AM
Quote from: stemer on May 22, 2020, 08:26:56 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 19, 2020, 06:39:17 AM
That's pretty funny, dismalist.

A serious answer comes from Cornell. (https://cornellsun.com/2020/04/24/cornell-cant-use-its-7-2-billion-endowment-to-help-mitigate-covid-19-losses-heres-why/). There's still a healthy dollop of "we're not really rich", but it also has details.

I am now confused about how endowed positions work. From the article:

"If endowment spending drops a lot, the University is up a creek. [For example], if I am a professor whose salary is covered by endowment spending, and endowment spending drops, the University has to come up with salary money elsewhere," Ehrenberg said. "Rather than have wild fluctuations in endowments, it is better to have a smooth path."

Are they saying that an endowed professor's salary is not covered in perpetuity by the original gift (and its growth, compound interest and all) but depenbds on new annual endowment giving?
How can this be?

I haven't served on an endowment committee, but it is my understanding that the value of the endowment isn't taken at one point in time. Rather, the draw rate is applied to a moving average of the endowment's value. So if the value of the endowment dips, this pulls down the 6 or 12 month moving average of the endowment, even if the endowment "rebounds" in a future month. I believe there are restrictions on how much a school can draw from an endowment in terms of being fiscally responsible and sustainable. So if your draw rate is 4 or 5%, and the endowment balance dips due to a dip in the stock market, the 4 or 5% you can withdraw nets you a smaller absolute dollar amount.

This is my guess. I could be wrong. I agree with you though. I did not think that endowed positions were based on 'soft money'.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 22, 2020, 09:25:51 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 22, 2020, 09:16:04 AM
Quote from: stemer on May 22, 2020, 08:26:56 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 19, 2020, 06:39:17 AM
That's pretty funny, dismalist.

A serious answer comes from Cornell. (https://cornellsun.com/2020/04/24/cornell-cant-use-its-7-2-billion-endowment-to-help-mitigate-covid-19-losses-heres-why/). There's still a healthy dollop of "we're not really rich", but it also has details.

I am now confused about how endowed positions work. From the article:

"If endowment spending drops a lot, the University is up a creek. [For example], if I am a professor whose salary is covered by endowment spending, and endowment spending drops, the University has to come up with salary money elsewhere," Ehrenberg said. "Rather than have wild fluctuations in endowments, it is better to have a smooth path."

Are they saying that an endowed professor's salary is not covered in perpetuity by the original gift (and its growth, compound interest and all) but depenbds on new annual endowment giving?
How can this be?

I haven't served on an endowment committee, but it is my understanding that the value of the endowment isn't taken at one point in time. Rather, the draw rate is applied to a moving average of the endowment's value. So if the value of the endowment dips, this pulls down the 6 or 12 month moving average of the endowment, even if the endowment "rebounds" in a future month. I believe there are restrictions on how much a school can draw from an endowment in terms of being fiscally responsible and sustainable. So if your draw rate is 4 or 5%, and the endowment balance dips due to a dip in the stock market, the 4 or 5% you can withdraw nets you a smaller absolute dollar amount.

This is my guess. I could be wrong. I agree with you though. I did not think that endowed positions were based on 'soft money'.

I don't know either, but thinking of what you've just pointed out, it would seem obvious that an "endowed chair in Basketweaving" would have to have its salary smoothed out by general funds since the amount vailable from year to year would fluctuate, while the salary would presumably follow the pattern of the rest of the institution.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 22, 2020, 10:04:44 AM
I just heard from a friend that Texas Christian University has decided to cut "a large number" of its library's online subscriptions. The university has urged faculty to get their research done ASAP, but hasn't said which subscriptions are getting axed. =/

(I assume it's because they didn't bother coordinating with the library before announcing it.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 22, 2020, 10:13:52 AM
University of Arkansas is implementing significant budget cuts in expectation of declining revenues.  Tuition will not be raised to cover deficits, but through a combination of hiring freezes, drawing on reserves, and past conservative budgeting practices they are hoping to avoid layoffs.


https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/may/22/ua-system-approves-tighter-budgets-2020/


System President Donald Bobbitt is quoted at the end as saying that they've been preparing for a rainy day, "and it's rainy."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 22, 2020, 10:41:25 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 22, 2020, 10:04:44 AM
I just heard from a friend that Texas Christian University has decided to cut "a large number" of its library's online subscriptions. The university has urged faculty to get their research done ASAP, but hasn't said which subscriptions are getting axed. =/

(I assume it's because they didn't bother coordinating with the library before announcing it.)

The university may have told them on short notice to cut X amount of budget, and the library decided that this would necessitate cuts in online subs--but hasn't yet had time to make the decisions about what to cut.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on May 22, 2020, 11:17:07 AM
Quote from: apl68 on May 22, 2020, 10:41:25 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 22, 2020, 10:04:44 AM
I just heard from a friend that Texas Christian University has decided to cut "a large number" of its library's online subscriptions. The university has urged faculty to get their research done ASAP, but hasn't said which subscriptions are getting axed. =/

(I assume it's because they didn't bother coordinating with the library before announcing it.)

The university may have told them on short notice to cut X amount of budget, and the library decided that this would necessitate cuts in online subs--but hasn't yet had time to make the decisions about what to cut.

My university library is doing planning for serials cut. They  told us renewal decisions get submitted in early September for subscriptions that start January 1. They don't have budget yet, so they've posted three lists of possible cuts, depending on budget.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on May 22, 2020, 02:59:25 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on May 22, 2020, 09:16:04 AM
Quote from: stemer on May 22, 2020, 08:26:56 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 19, 2020, 06:39:17 AM
That's pretty funny, dismalist.

A serious answer comes from Cornell. (https://cornellsun.com/2020/04/24/cornell-cant-use-its-7-2-billion-endowment-to-help-mitigate-covid-19-losses-heres-why/). There's still a healthy dollop of "we're not really rich", but it also has details.

I am now confused about how endowed positions work. From the article:

"If endowment spending drops a lot, the University is up a creek. [For example], if I am a professor whose salary is covered by endowment spending, and endowment spending drops, the University has to come up with salary money elsewhere," Ehrenberg said. "Rather than have wild fluctuations in endowments, it is better to have a smooth path."

Are they saying that an endowed professor's salary is not covered in perpetuity by the original gift (and its growth, compound interest and all) but depenbds on new annual endowment giving?
How can this be?

I haven't served on an endowment committee, but it is my understanding that the value of the endowment isn't taken at one point in time. Rather, the draw rate is applied to a moving average of the endowment's value. So if the value of the endowment dips, this pulls down the 6 or 12 month moving average of the endowment, even if the endowment "rebounds" in a future month. I believe there are restrictions on how much a school can draw from an endowment in terms of being fiscally responsible and sustainable. So if your draw rate is 4 or 5%, and the endowment balance dips due to a dip in the stock market, the 4 or 5% you can withdraw nets you a smaller absolute dollar amount.

This is my guess. I could be wrong. I agree with you though. I did not think that endowed positions were based on 'soft money'.

The confusion might be between two different things that can be endowed: the school, or a particular faculty position.

1. A named faculty endowment, usually called the "NNN Chair of SSStudies" is separate, and I believe is supposed to be kept apart from, any money the university might spend otherwise. Those might also vary in value, but they're (usually/often/always...I believe it depends) administered differently from the university's own endowment.

And there may or may not be fairly strict rules for the ways the funds in the professorial endowment can be directed. They're often earmarked beyond the named chair to go for something consistent with study in that particular field if the school folds, or the department doesn't want that type of work being done anymore, etc. The school doesn't just automatically get that money.

2. The endowment for a school, non-profit, or other organization, has more moving parts, usually. There are usually (in most endowments I know about) separate kitties called "Restricted" and "Unrestricted" funds. The Restricted funds are not supposed to be tapped. They're tied up in longer-term investments and are expected to bring greater yield, and you have to go through a lot of paperwork to pry any money out of them (Or you should...).

The "Unrestricted" funds are a bit easier to get at, although any entity that's consistently snacking on its endowment without raising funds to re-supply those funds is cannibalizing its future..."eating seed corn," as they say. The return from depleted Unrestricted funds will be smaller, so the income is not really enhanced overall by spending them.

I'm sure there are many many more nuances to this, but that describes my understanding, based on the groups I've worked for or work for now.

M.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 27, 2020, 11:00:05 AM
Rockford University (https://wrex.com/2020/05/26/rockford-university-eliminates-4-majors-2-minors-in-languages-philosophy/) is eliminating its majors in French, Classics, Latin, and Philosophy, and its minors in French and Greek, but will add new majors in Accounting and Criminal Justice.

Apparently the cuts are unrelated to COVID.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 27, 2020, 12:48:38 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 27, 2020, 11:00:05 AM
Rockford University (https://wrex.com/2020/05/26/rockford-university-eliminates-4-majors-2-minors-in-languages-philosophy/) is eliminating its majors in French, Classics, Latin, and Philosophy, and its minors in French and Greek, but will add new majors in Accounting and Criminal Justice.

Apparently the cuts are unrelated to COVID.

I suspect Rockford is having enrollment problems. Its graduate FTE was nearly 800 before the 2008 recession and it was down to 175 in 2018. Undergrad FTE increased during the same period, but who knows what's happened over the last couple years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 27, 2020, 04:15:25 PM
I'm amazed anyone still had a major in Latin.

What a shame.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 27, 2020, 06:00:37 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 27, 2020, 11:00:05 AM
Rockford University (https://wrex.com/2020/05/26/rockford-university-eliminates-4-majors-2-minors-in-languages-philosophy/) is eliminating its majors in French, Classics, Latin, and Philosophy, and its minors in French and Greek, but will add new majors in Accounting and Criminal Justice.

Apparently the cuts are unrelated to COVID.
There will always be demand for accountants, so you can see why they would look at that relative to Latin etc. But how competitive is Rockford going to be?

For prospective accountants who can get out of Rockford for a bit, UofI has a top-notch program at a very reasonable cost. There are some other solid ones in Chicago. If Rockford is trying to compete for commuters against the local community college (https://www.rockvalleycollege.edu/Courses/Programs/Accounting/degree.cfm), the prospective accountants would likely get the green eyeshades on and look at the cost difference.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 27, 2020, 09:01:22 PM
Rockford hasn't been competitive for years.  It's another place that has outlived its original mission and probably won't successfully find a new mission since they're starting years too late.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: nebo113 on May 28, 2020, 04:27:15 AM
https://www.edmit.me/collegefinancialhealth
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sockknitter on May 28, 2020, 07:31:25 AM
My public institution is expecting a 15-20% reduction in our state budget allocation. We haven't yet received word on how the administration plans to deal with this blow, but I am very worried about furloughs. Our state has done its best to drag its feet on paying out unemployment and we have been living solely on my income since mid March.

We also haven't received enrollment projections yet. We are freezing tuition hikes and just announced free in-state tuition for incoming freshmen, but I doubt it will be enough to entice many who are considering taking a gap year. Our area has low wages and many of our students are not only the first in their families to pursue degrees, but also contribute to the household income.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 28, 2020, 12:17:18 PM
Quote from: nebo113 on May 28, 2020, 04:27:15 AM
https://www.edmit.me/collegefinancialhealth

Yes, we discussed that at length on a separate thread when it first became public.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 29, 2020, 05:54:04 AM
Marlboro campus will be open in the fall as a new school. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/29/charter-school-group-start-new-higher-ed-program-marlboro-college-campus)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 29, 2020, 07:54:07 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 29, 2020, 05:54:04 AM
Marlboro campus will be open in the fall as a new school. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/29/charter-school-group-start-new-higher-ed-program-marlboro-college-campus)
The new colleges business model is to admit students who can't pay but require a lot of special services. They also propose a low-residency program for students who are not quite college ready. What could go wrong with that? /s
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 29, 2020, 09:03:39 AM
Henderson State University has talked the state into giving them $825,000 in rainy-day funds to keep them from having to immediately furlough staff.


https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2020/may/28/state-committee-approves-sending-henderson-state-u/


They've worked hard for it.  Previous articles have detailed the hoops they've had to jump through to convince the state that they really needed the money and would put it to good use.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 29, 2020, 12:33:58 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 29, 2020, 07:54:07 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 29, 2020, 05:54:04 AM
Marlboro campus will be open in the fall as a new school. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/29/charter-school-group-start-new-higher-ed-program-marlboro-college-campus)
The new colleges business model is to admit students who can't pay but require a lot of special services. They also propose a low-residency program for students who are not quite college ready. What could go wrong with that? /s

Also in that vein, bring in people who aren't a good match for full residency due to care-taking and other responsibilities and do it for two weeks at a time multiple times per year.

Yep, because nothing says support of a complicated life with care-taking responsibilities like extended travel.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 29, 2020, 12:54:03 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 29, 2020, 12:33:58 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 29, 2020, 07:54:07 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 29, 2020, 05:54:04 AM
Marlboro campus will be open in the fall as a new school. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/29/charter-school-group-start-new-higher-ed-program-marlboro-college-campus)
The new colleges business model is to admit students who can't pay but require a lot of special services. They also propose a low-residency program for students who are not quite college ready. What could go wrong with that? /s

Also in that vein, bring in people who aren't a good match for full residency due to care-taking and other responsibilities and do it for two weeks at a time multiple times per year.

Yep, because nothing says support of a complicated life with care-taking responsibilities like extended travel.

Maybe it takes a career in charter schools to come up with this kind of out-of-the-box thinking.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 29, 2020, 12:57:31 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 29, 2020, 12:54:03 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 29, 2020, 12:33:58 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 29, 2020, 07:54:07 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 29, 2020, 05:54:04 AM
Marlboro campus will be open in the fall as a new school. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/29/charter-school-group-start-new-higher-ed-program-marlboro-college-campus)
The new colleges business model is to admit students who can't pay but require a lot of special services. They also propose a low-residency program for students who are not quite college ready. What could go wrong with that? /s

Also in that vein, bring in people who aren't a good match for full residency due to care-taking and other responsibilities and do it for two weeks at a time multiple times per year.

Yep, because nothing says support of a complicated life with care-taking responsibilities like extended travel.

Maybe it takes a career in charter schools to come up with this kind of out-of-the-box thinking.

I assume this is another case of do-gooders wanting to help without grokking why the problems are hard and that money alone is not sufficient.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 29, 2020, 02:23:06 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 29, 2020, 09:03:39 AM
Henderson State University has talked the state into giving them $825,000 in rainy-day funds to keep them from having to immediately furlough staff.


https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2020/may/28/state-committee-approves-sending-henderson-state-u/


They've worked hard for it.  Previous articles have detailed the hoops they've had to jump through to convince the state that they really needed the money and would put it to good use.

Rock on HSU!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on May 30, 2020, 09:55:15 PM
Across the pond, SOAS - formerly called the School of Oriental and African Studies - part of the University of London,  just announced a new round of budget cuts and staff retrenchment, as the ongoing global health crisis results in further enrollment drops and financial troubles for the institution - long known as a leading institution for language and regional studies in the UK - particularly for the studies of former British colonies in Asia, Africa, and the Middle East.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/may/29/soas-to-slash-budgets-and-staff-as-debt-crisis-worsens-in-pandemic

QuoteStaff say they fear that management is cutting costs to make the college, formerly called the School of Oriental and African Studies, a palatable takeover target for an overseas institution or one of its London rivals, as the latest financial figures show that it to be carrying multi-million pound deficits and risks running out of cash next year.

Soas's auditors warned this month that the impact of the coronavirus outbreak on student recruitment meant "a material uncertainty exists that may cast significant doubt on the school's ability to continue as a going concern" over the next 12 months.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/may/29/soas-empire-school-of-oriental-and-african-studies-language-study-uk

QuoteOne of Soas's specialities remains the languages of Africa, Asia and the Middle East. But the study of popular modern foreign languages, such as French and German, has been in decline in the UK for the past decade, as fewer pupils take them at school. That has left Soas's suite of language courses facing an even tougher domestic recruitment market.

Teaching languages is also relatively expensive. In larger universities, cheaper and more popular courses, such as politics and law, cross-subsidise the costs of modern languages, but Soas is also a victim of its size. While it does offer popular courses such as law for undergraduates, the numbers are too small to offset the costs of language provision. While English universities have a median turnover of about £150m a year, Soas's is barely £90m.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on May 30, 2020, 10:26:07 PM
The president of Lewis & Clark College of Portland, Oregon, just wrote an op-ed in the New Republic making the case of why a liberal arts education is valuable in a time of the ongoing global health and economic crisis. Many of the arguments he made in the op-ed is reinventing and extolling the virtues of liberal arts education (e.g., it teaches students the value of citizenship and civil engagement and that over the long run its investment would pay off and would be at par, if not higher with those graduating with professional business or engineering decrees):

https://newrepublic.com/article/157845/case-liberal-arts-college-coronavirus-crisis

QuoteIn January, the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce released a first-of-its-kind study showing that, over a lifetime, graduates of liberal arts colleges earn a higher return on their education investment than do graduates of all other colleges.

Underscoring all the data are the stories I hear from students and alumni. Research studies and anecdotes attest that higher education still provides the best methods for separating facts from fiction. It is still the place where a habit for truth and the honorable treatment of all must be our daily discipline. It is still where students become active citizens.

Nonetheless, as some of you have highlighted in this thread, the challenge facing most LAC today is not so much of promoting civic values and long-term career success. It's how to convince most low to middle-class families that spending $40 to $60K/year for their children's education would be worth the loans, second mortgages, or any other financial sacrifice the family would need to make in order to afford this type of education, in a time of what could be the Great Depression 2.0 approaching and ensure that it all this investment would worth the high price tag and the lack of immediate financial payoff a liberal arts education would likely produce. I'm afraid without some assurances that their children's college investment would produce an immediate payoff in some way, most middle-class parents would rather send their kids to state universities or private schools with comprehensive professional offerings which can better offer such assurances

Elite LACs like Lewis and Clark with its old money WASP student and alumni base, with a substantially large endowment would most likely be able to survive the economic upheaval ahead. I'm not sure whether lesser known and non-elite LACs (such as the one yours truly attended) which largely tuition-dependent and not having their finances subsidized by a sizable endowment would be able to survive the upcoming Great Transformation of American higher education system.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 31, 2020, 06:06:26 AM
Quote from: picard on May 30, 2020, 10:26:07 PM

https://newrepublic.com/article/157845/case-liberal-arts-college-coronavirus-crisis

QuoteIn January, the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce released a first-of-its-kind study showing that, over a lifetime, graduates of liberal arts colleges earn a higher return on their education investment than do graduates of all other colleges.

Underscoring all the data are the stories I hear from students and alumni. Research studies and anecdotes attest that higher education still provides the best methods for separating facts from fiction. It is still the place where a habit for truth and the honorable treatment of all must be our daily discipline. It is still where students become active citizens.

The president of Lewis & Clark College of Portland, Oregon, just wrote an op-ed in the New Republic making the case of why a liberal arts education is valuable in a time of the ongoing global health and economic crisis. Many of the arguments he made in the op-ed is reinventing and extolling the virtues of liberal arts education (e.g., it teaches students the value of citizenship and civil engagement and that over the long run its investment would pay off and would be at par, if not higher with those graduating with professional business or engineering decrees):


The article didn't specifically mention business or engineering, and the link to Georgetown didn't link to any specific result.

So it's not clear what specific results the Georgetown study came up with or how they did.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 31, 2020, 06:16:49 AM
First, many of the studies of the value of a liberal arts degree don't differentiate between folks who only have a BA and thus who continue on to graduate work including JD, MBA, and MD.  The standard research shows the value of attending an elite institution and drawing on their network or the value of a good profession graduate degree or both.

Second, a chemistry degree is a liberal arts degree.  A chemical engineering degree is a professional degree.

One of them tends to pay $35k right after college graduation and one tends to pay $65k for a new BS.

Both tend to pay $100k by middle career if one is still employed in the field, but significant fractions of people do something else after college that are still middle class careers.

While it's possible to major in chemistry at many S(mall)LACs, engineering is seldom found at S(mall)LACs.

Thus, while there's no penalty for graduating with a chemical engineering degree and then doing something else after a couple years of professional practice, there's often a significant penalty for going straight chemistry, taking a low-paying technician job, and then going back for a graduate degree or finding a different middle-class job that pays better.

The current discussion in physics is how to recruit more college students to save undergrad liberal arts education without becoming engineering.  The discussion is very much like the humanities discussion and relies heavily on folks not looking up that many recent physics BS graduates in stable jobs have the title of engineer.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 31, 2020, 06:32:32 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 31, 2020, 06:06:26 AM

The article didn't specifically mention business or engineering, and the link to Georgetown didn't link to any specific result.

So it's not clear what specific results the Georgetown study came up with or how they did.

Oh Marshy.  Look at link which says "ROI of Liberal Arts Education"; it's a separate PDF.  Its headline:

"Median ROI of Liberal Arts Colleges Nearly $200,000 Higher Than the Median for All Colleges, New Georgetown University Report Says
"Students from the 47 most selective liberal arts institutions see 40-year financial returns of $1.13 million"


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 31, 2020, 09:50:57 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 31, 2020, 06:32:32 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 31, 2020, 06:06:26 AM

The article didn't specifically mention business or engineering, and the link to Georgetown didn't link to any specific result.

So it's not clear what specific results the Georgetown study came up with or how they did.

Oh Marshy.  Look at link which says "ROI of Liberal Arts Education"; it's a separate PDF.  Its headline:

"Median ROI of Liberal Arts Colleges Nearly $200,000 Higher Than the Median for All Colleges, New Georgetown University Report Says
"Students from the 47 most selective liberal arts institutions see 40-year financial returns of $1.13 million"

Thanks for the link. From the report's conclusions:

Quote
However, high ROIs are not uniform across these institutions. The 47 most
selective liberal arts colleges do very well—their median ROI is comparable
to that of doctoral institutions with high research activity. On the other
hand, the lowest-ranking four-year liberal arts colleges have 40-year ROIs
of less than $550,000, far below the average for all US colleges.
ROI can be affected by many factors—some within an institution's control
and some beyond it. For example, the ROI is higher at liberal arts colleges
with higher graduation rates and those that enroll smaller shares of
low-income students. Majors matter, too: institutions with higher shares
of students majoring in STEM disciplines have higher ROIs.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on May 31, 2020, 10:29:44 AM
Only some STEM disciplines are liberal arts.

Science Technology Engineering Math.

Biology is a STEM field that is also a liberal arts field and is often taught at S(mall)LACs.  However, frustration abounds because it turns out that entry-level biology jobs open to the S(mall)LAC graduates pay about $30k. BS-level biology is  not generally where the shortage is in STEM.

Engineers in some specialties get paid well upon graduation because they are filling a shortage.

Some technology jobs pay well with an associate's degree because they fill a shortage.

Math can have poorly paid adjuncts at the PhD level or well-paid bachelor-degree holders with interesting experience.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: PScientist on May 31, 2020, 10:38:56 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 31, 2020, 06:16:49 AM
The current discussion in physics is how to recruit more college students to save undergrad liberal arts education without becoming engineering.  The discussion is very much like the humanities discussion and relies heavily on folks not looking up that many recent physics BS graduates in stable jobs have the title of engineer.

Hi, Polly!  I teach physics at what you might call a "S(mall)LAC" with respect to our undergraduate programs, although we are classified as a "doctoral professional university" because of some large graduate programs in the health professions.

We are glad to celebrate whatever success our students find, and we are glad to see that many of them end up in engineering roles, either with or without a master's degree in engineering first.  That is one kind of success that some of them have.  We promote it; we don't try to hide it!

We also celebrate the success of those who become high school teachers, or data scientists, or managers of microbreweries, or marketing consultants.  A few of them do go on to get a Ph.D. in physics or astronomy -- that's great, too.

Some of our students who end up in engineering careers could have gotten there more directly with an engineering bachelor's degree, but most of them were not ready for that as 18-year-olds.  I don't know whether every engineering program still takes the old-school pressure-cooker approach to undergraduate education, but I know that a lot of them do.  We're able to give students some years that they need to develop as mature people, and to catch up on math and quantitative reasoning skills, before they get into that world.

I am losing sleep over lots of things these days, but definitely not over the idea that our liberal-arts physics department is "becoming engineering."  We're not, even if half of our graduates are.  (I certainly do not hear the biology department fretting about "becoming medicine.")
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 31, 2020, 11:10:28 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 31, 2020, 09:50:57 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 31, 2020, 06:32:32 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 31, 2020, 06:06:26 AM

The article didn't specifically mention business or engineering, and the link to Georgetown didn't link to any specific result.

So it's not clear what specific results the Georgetown study came up with or how they did.

Oh Marshy.  Look at link which says "ROI of Liberal Arts Education"; it's a separate PDF.  Its headline:

"Median ROI of Liberal Arts Colleges Nearly $200,000 Higher Than the Median for All Colleges, New Georgetown University Report Says
"Students from the 47 most selective liberal arts institutions see 40-year financial returns of $1.13 million"

Thanks for the link. From the report's conclusions:

Quote
However, high ROIs are not uniform across these institutions. The 47 most
selective liberal arts colleges do very well—their median ROI is comparable
to that of doctoral institutions with high research activity. On the other
hand, the lowest-ranking four-year liberal arts colleges have 40-year ROIs
of less than $550,000, far below the average for all US colleges.
ROI can be affected by many factors—some within an institution's control
and some beyond it. For example, the ROI is higher at liberal arts colleges
with higher graduation rates and those that enroll smaller shares of
low-income students. Majors matter, too: institutions with higher shares
of students majoring in STEM disciplines have higher ROIs.




You have an amazing knack for finding the obvious and the well-known.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 31, 2020, 11:17:12 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 31, 2020, 11:10:28 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 31, 2020, 09:50:57 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 31, 2020, 06:32:32 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 31, 2020, 06:06:26 AM

The article didn't specifically mention business or engineering, and the link to Georgetown didn't link to any specific result.

So it's not clear what specific results the Georgetown study came up with or how they did.

Oh Marshy.  Look at link which says "ROI of Liberal Arts Education"; it's a separate PDF.  Its headline:

"Median ROI of Liberal Arts Colleges Nearly $200,000 Higher Than the Median for All Colleges, New Georgetown University Report Says
"Students from the 47 most selective liberal arts institutions see 40-year financial returns of $1.13 million"

Thanks for the link. From the report's conclusions:

Quote
However, high ROIs are not uniform across these institutions. The 47 most
selective liberal arts colleges do very well—their median ROI is comparable
to that of doctoral institutions with high research activity. On the other
hand, the lowest-ranking four-year liberal arts colleges have 40-year ROIs
of less than $550,000, far below the average for all US colleges.
ROI can be affected by many factors—some within an institution's control
and some beyond it. For example, the ROI is higher at liberal arts colleges
with higher graduation rates and those that enroll smaller shares of
low-income students. Majors matter, too: institutions with higher shares
of students majoring in STEM disciplines have higher ROIs.



You have an amazing knack for finding the obvious and the well-known.

Those were conclusions from the report. Take it up with the writers.

Here's all that I didn't include: (Preamble; i.e. before what I quoted above)
Quote
The share of students majoring in the liberal arts has been falling as more
students favor career-oriented majors. Some small colleges grounded
in the liberal arts have been failing. However, liberal arts colleges, on the
whole, offer strong returns on investment to their students. These colleges
rank third in ROI among the 14 categories of colleges

And here's the final bit: (after what I quoted above):
Quote
When evaluating the long-term return of attending any college, careful
consideration must be given to all the factors that might affect its ROI.

Does that final line show the authors have an amazing knack for finding the obvious and the well-known?

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 31, 2020, 01:54:25 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 31, 2020, 11:17:12 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 31, 2020, 11:10:28 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 31, 2020, 09:50:57 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 31, 2020, 06:32:32 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 31, 2020, 06:06:26 AM

The article didn't specifically mention business or engineering, and the link to Georgetown didn't link to any specific result.

So it's not clear what specific results the Georgetown study came up with or how they did.

Oh Marshy.  Look at link which says "ROI of Liberal Arts Education"; it's a separate PDF.  Its headline:

"Median ROI of Liberal Arts Colleges Nearly $200,000 Higher Than the Median for All Colleges, New Georgetown University Report Says
"Students from the 47 most selective liberal arts institutions see 40-year financial returns of $1.13 million"

Thanks for the link. From the report's conclusions:

Quote
However, high ROIs are not uniform across these institutions. The 47 most
selective liberal arts colleges do very well—their median ROI is comparable
to that of doctoral institutions with high research activity. On the other
hand, the lowest-ranking four-year liberal arts colleges have 40-year ROIs
of less than $550,000, far below the average for all US colleges.
ROI can be affected by many factors—some within an institution's control
and some beyond it. For example, the ROI is higher at liberal arts colleges
with higher graduation rates and those that enroll smaller shares of
low-income students. Majors matter, too: institutions with higher shares
of students majoring in STEM disciplines have higher ROIs.



You have an amazing knack for finding the obvious and the well-known.

Those were conclusions from the report. Take it up with the writers.

Here's all that I didn't include: (Preamble; i.e. before what I quoted above)
Quote
The share of students majoring in the liberal arts has been falling as more
students favor career-oriented majors. Some small colleges grounded
in the liberal arts have been failing. However, liberal arts colleges, on the
whole, offer strong returns on investment to their students. These colleges
rank third in ROI among the 14 categories of colleges

And here's the final bit: (after what I quoted above):
Quote
When evaluating the long-term return of attending any college, careful
consideration must be given to all the factors that might affect its ROI.

Does that final line show the authors have an amazing knack for finding the obvious and the well-known?

Yes.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 31, 2020, 04:06:55 PM
Edmit thinks one-third of the private colleges in its sample will run out of money within six years:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/26/upshot/virus-colleges-risky-strategy.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/26/upshot/virus-colleges-risky-strategy.html).

"If the probabilistic models collapse, revenue losses at some colleges could be much more severe than Edmit's assumptions."

I know of at least private college in the region that is looking at a possible 25% decline in enrollment for 2020-21.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on May 31, 2020, 04:49:37 PM
Quote from: spork on May 31, 2020, 04:06:55 PM
Edmit thinks one-third of the private colleges in its sample will run out of money within six years:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/26/upshot/virus-colleges-risky-strategy.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/26/upshot/virus-colleges-risky-strategy.html).

"If the probabilistic models collapse, revenue losses at some colleges could be much more severe than Edmit's assumptions."

I know of at least private college in the region that is looking at a possible 25% decline in enrollment for 2020-21.

Of at least one? Or more?  Oh the suspense!

We are budgeting for a 25% decline in enrollment at my LAC. We also moved our deadline to June 1, but let's be honest, we'll take anyone up to the add/drop period deadline.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: glowdart on May 31, 2020, 09:58:27 PM
I know of very few schools that are not budgeting for a 25% decline in the incoming class. We just hope the retention rate also stays above 75%.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 01, 2020, 12:52:06 AM
I was referring to a 25% drop in total enrollment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on June 01, 2020, 06:16:36 AM
Excerpt from Pittsburgh Post-Gazette's story on the behind-the-scene decision of Allegheny College, a LAC based in rural Western Pennsylvania, to reopen for in-class instructions this fall. While much of the decisions were based on the potential health risks for students, faculty, and other staffs, finances also play some role as well:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/education/2020/05/31/Allegheny-college-Hilary-Link-COVID-19-fall-semester-reopen-online-Pennsylvania/stories/202005290088

Quote
The virus that emptied campuses in March already has cost millions of dollars in income, from endowments and housing refunds to lost event revenue. An ill-conceived reopening could do still more damage — to student outcomes, the college's public image and its bottom line.

Nationally, many students have delayed decisions beyond the traditional May 1 deadline and told survey-takers they will not pay in-person prices for another semester of online classes. Projections of enrollment losses of up to 20% have some schools worried about whether they can survive.

Quote
Allegheny College entered the pandemic financially stronger than some small schools, with an $231 million endowment. But COVID-19 promises to inflict heavy costs, many yet to be tabulated.

Even if her college eventually had to pass costs on to students, said Ms. Link, it would likely mean more tuition discounting down the road. The school's total cost to attend tops $60,000, although its net price after financial aid in 2017-18 — what most students actually pay — was about $25,000, according to federal data.

But higher education's convoluted price structure was a topic for another day.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: stemer on June 02, 2020, 03:22:14 PM
June 1st is now behind us, how are the deposits for Fall at your institution? At our place,  -5% compared to May 1 last year.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: onthefringe on June 02, 2020, 06:16:01 PM
Quote from: stemer on June 02, 2020, 03:22:14 PM
June 1st is now behind us, how are the deposits for Fall at your institution? At our place,  -5% compared to May 1 last year.

We are actually at +12% compared to last year. We made a bunch more offers in hopes of offsetting expected higher than usual summer melt, and then our yield was surprisingly high. Ot will be interesting to see what happens between now and August.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on June 03, 2020, 09:25:11 AM
Way ahead of where I thought they'd be ... but I'm wondering what a deposit means in this environment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Asymptotic on June 03, 2020, 10:45:39 AM
It makes sense to reopen in Allegheny County. The virus didn't;t hit us nearly as hard as expected, and frankly the thing is waning for sure all over.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on June 03, 2020, 11:12:12 AM
We made our target after going to the waitlist-- we have ~30% acceptance rate so there is generally a deep waitlist and I doubt quality will suffer.

I haven't seen the exact numbers but we will be lower in international students (who couldn't get visas processed or decided the US was not such a good place to be right now), with the deficit made up with domestic students from the waitlist.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: waterboy on June 03, 2020, 11:54:40 AM
Quotefrankly the thing is waning for sure all over
Not sure about that - check the southern states, and MA.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 03, 2020, 03:11:07 PM
Quote from: waterboy on June 03, 2020, 11:54:40 AM
Quotefrankly the thing is waning for sure all over
Not sure about that - check the southern states, and MA.

The rural Northeast did a good job isolating, so there has been low pressure. That created fertile ground for denialists, who are abundant in Western PA where Allegheny is located. I expect reckless behavior to set in soon. This area might look like Mississippi by the time the Fall semester is supposed to start.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 03, 2020, 04:30:23 PM
Quote from: Puget on June 03, 2020, 11:12:12 AM
We made our target after going to the waitlist-- we have ~30% acceptance rate so there is generally a deep waitlist and I doubt quality will suffer.

[. . .]

Please hire me.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: BadWolf on June 03, 2020, 07:23:31 PM
My SLAC is about 25% above target and 6% above last year's incoming class. Now anxiously awaiting retention on that class (not going to be pretty), as well as the deferrals and cancel after deposits. Parents seem to be treating this as business as usual for now. I also think with some people having financial concerns, they are not going to throw down a deposit they can't afford to lose, so the melt may not be as bad as some expect.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 04, 2020, 03:05:04 AM
Quote from: stemer on June 02, 2020, 03:22:14 PM
June 1st is now behind us, how are the deposits for Fall at your institution? At our place,  -5% compared to May 1 last year.
Deposits are looking good, but filling the class is never a concern. However, the Expected Family Contribution is anticipated to be down sharply for many students whose parental income dropped during the year. Meeting that need with additional financial aid will be very expensive.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 04, 2020, 04:22:14 AM
Why the apparent good deposit news isn't necessarily good financial news.   Here is the overview for fall via IHE (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/06/04/enrollments-could-rise-while-tuition-revenue-falls-moody's-says)
Quote from: IHEHigher education enrollments could increase between 2 and 4 percent in fall 2020, according to a new report by Moody's Investors Service. But even if enrollment increases, net tuition revenue and other student revenue for the 2021 fiscal year will likely decline between 5 and 13 percent.

For schools in shaky financial condition, an increase in instructional expenses of a few percent (to accommodate higher enrollment) combined with a reduction in net revenue of 10% could put them in Dire Financial Straits.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on June 04, 2020, 04:32:36 AM
Quote from: Hibush on June 04, 2020, 04:22:14 AM
Why the apparent good deposit news isn't necessarily good financial news.   Here is the overview for fall via IHE (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/06/04/enrollments-could-rise-while-tuition-revenue-falls-moody's-says)
Quote from: IHEHigher education enrollments could increase between 2 and 4 percent in fall 2020, according to a new report by Moody's Investors Service. But even if enrollment increases, net tuition revenue and other student revenue for the 2021 fiscal year will likely decline between 5 and 13 percent.

For schools in shaky financial condition, an increase in instructional expenses of a few percent (to accommodate higher enrollment) combined with a reduction in net revenue of 10% could put them in Dire Financial Straits.

For places operating totally online, the upside is that over-enrollment isn't a big problem. Having 10% more students online doesn't pose the same problem as 10% more students than the classroom or lab will hold.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on June 04, 2020, 09:28:32 AM
For those of you who are despondent about the state of higher ed, and more specifically the humanities, the following is a full throated defense.  The comments on the article however, are much more of a mixed bag.  Everything from "I really valued my humanities education" to "Burn it all down.  Universities have brought this on themselves."  You know, kinda like the discussion right here on the good ol' fora.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/opinion/coronavirus-college-humanities.html

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 04, 2020, 11:30:11 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on June 04, 2020, 09:28:32 AM
For those of you who are despondent about the state of higher ed, and more specifically the humanities, the following is a full throated defense.  The comments on the article however, are much more of a mixed bag.  Everything from "I really valued my humanities education" to "Burn it all down.  Universities have brought this on themselves."  You know, kinda like the discussion right here on the good ol' fora.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/opinion/coronavirus-college-humanities.html

I've sung it before
And gonna sing it again:

Publicize.
Publicize.
Publicize.

Vote Democrat.
Vote out Trump.

Some people we will never get---their hard little minds are made up.  But...
We don't need everyone, we need enough.

At this point in time this struggle is not on the level of Corona virus, Arbury or Floyd...
But it is very important for the future.

Getting the word out is how we do a great many things in our society. 
And it is happening, even if some people either insist it is not or that it will do no good.

Do something.  Speak up.

This includes y'all.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on June 05, 2020, 06:49:34 PM
Quote from: stemer on June 02, 2020, 03:22:14 PM
June 1st is now behind us, how are the deposits for Fall at your institution? At our place,  -5% compared to May 1 last year.

I haven't mustered up the nerve to ask. 2020 has been traumatic enough already.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: AmLitHist on June 06, 2020, 05:34:55 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on June 05, 2020, 06:49:34 PM
2020 has been traumatic enough already.

Ain't it the truth. (I was one who kept calling for 2019 to end, already.  Um......be careful what you wish for?)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 06, 2020, 08:18:22 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on June 06, 2020, 05:34:55 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on June 05, 2020, 06:49:34 PM
2020 has been traumatic enough already.

Ain't it the truth. (I was one who kept calling for 2019 to end, already.  Um......be careful what you wish for?)

Just yesterday I was trying to remember which year it was we were all happy to see finally end. I concluded it must have been 2017... but I can't for the life of me remember why any more. It all looks like small peanuts.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 08, 2020, 07:40:26 AM
University of Alaska system cuts 40 programs while still considering institutional mergers. (https://apnews.com/3d853bdbf4e95b72ae56c5deede6d11e)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on June 08, 2020, 08:01:41 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 08, 2020, 07:40:26 AM
University of Alaska system cuts 40 programs while still considering institutional mergers. (https://apnews.com/3d853bdbf4e95b72ae56c5deede6d11e)

As an illustration of how much the problems predate COVID-19:

Quote
Programs that were cut were chosen from a larger list of programs previously selected by university administrators, university officials said. Thirteen of them had previously been suspended, some as early as 2013.

I'm guessing many of those "suspended" programs had no students in them by this point.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 08, 2020, 08:34:24 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 08, 2020, 08:01:41 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 08, 2020, 07:40:26 AM
University of Alaska system cuts 40 programs while still considering institutional mergers. (https://apnews.com/3d853bdbf4e95b72ae56c5deede6d11e)

As an illustration of how much the problems predate COVID-19:

Quote
Programs that were cut were chosen from a larger list of programs previously selected by university administrators, university officials said. Thirteen of them had previously been suspended, some as early as 2013.

I'm guessing many of those "suspended" programs had no students in them by this point.


Alaska's situation really seems tough to address well. The state needs people trained in all manner of subjects, often with a specialized knowledge specific to Alaska conditions. But the resources to do that are spread so thin with the whole state's population being comparable to the Lakeland, FL metro area. Nobody thinks Lakeland can or should support a whole comprehensive university system. How can you support all the needed infrastructure without huge spending per student?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 08, 2020, 09:05:29 AM
In New York, Elmira college (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TaCcMQZptUcJ:https://www.stargazette.com/story/news/local/2020/06/05/elmira-college-cuts-six-academic-programs-and-three-sports-teams/3158300001/+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca) is eliminating six programs, three sports teams, and reducing its staff by 20%.

The six programs being eliminated are American Studies, Classical Studies, Economics, International Studies, Music, Philosophy & Religion, and Spanish & Hispanic Studies (that's seven, so I dunno what's up).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 08, 2020, 10:24:22 AM
Elmira has had negative net revenue for every fiscal year from 2012 through 2018 (most recent year publicly available). In FY 2018, it had a deficit of $8 million on a total operating budget of $72 million, despite selling off at least a few million dollars worth of securities. Its undergraduate FTE fell from 1465 pre-2008 recession to 956 -- it's lost a third of its enrollment. It has an acceptance rate of 85%, a yield rate of 10%, and a graduation rate of 54%.

I predict Elmira will close in 0 to 5 years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 08, 2020, 10:37:00 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 08, 2020, 09:05:29 AM
In New York, Elmira college (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TaCcMQZptUcJ:https://www.stargazette.com/story/news/local/2020/06/05/elmira-college-cuts-six-academic-programs-and-three-sports-teams/3158300001/+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca) is eliminating six programs, three sports teams, and reducing its staff by 20%.

The six programs being eliminated are American Studies, Classical Studies, Economics, International Studies, Music, Philosophy & Religion, and Spanish & Hispanic Studies (that's seven, so I dunno what's up).

With Spanish shut down, I guess that means they no longer have any language programs.  Their web site says that they still offer an English major, for now.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 08, 2020, 11:28:21 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 08, 2020, 08:01:41 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 08, 2020, 07:40:26 AM
University of Alaska system cuts 40 programs while still considering institutional mergers. (https://apnews.com/3d853bdbf4e95b72ae56c5deede6d11e)

As an illustration of how much the problems predate COVID-19:

Quote
Programs that were cut were chosen from a larger list of programs previously selected by university administrators, university officials said. Thirteen of them had previously been suspended, some as early as 2013.

I'm guessing many of those "suspended" programs had no students in them by this point.

We've discussed Alaska at length last year when big cuts to finances were proposed by the governor along with the insistence that the system only needed one campus.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 08, 2020, 12:59:03 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 08, 2020, 11:28:21 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 08, 2020, 08:01:41 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 08, 2020, 07:40:26 AM
University of Alaska system cuts 40 programs while still considering institutional mergers. (https://apnews.com/3d853bdbf4e95b72ae56c5deede6d11e)

As an illustration of how much the problems predate COVID-19:

Quote
Programs that were cut were chosen from a larger list of programs previously selected by university administrators, university officials said. Thirteen of them had previously been suspended, some as early as 2013.

I'm guessing many of those "suspended" programs had no students in them by this point.

We've discussed Alaska at length last year when big cuts to finances were proposed by the governor along with the insistence that the system only needed one campus.

This week we learned that Jim Johnsen, the president of U of Alaska will become the next president of the U of Wisconsin system. His training as a top-down business executive did not sit well with the Alaska faculty. Perhaps he is going to drive consolidation in the UW system, which we have also discussed at length here. Many of the UW campuses have worrisome demographic and financial.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sonoamused on June 10, 2020, 07:58:09 AM
Quote from: apl68 on June 08, 2020, 10:37:00 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 08, 2020, 09:05:29 AM
In New York, Elmira college (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TaCcMQZptUcJ:https://www.stargazette.com/story/news/local/2020/06/05/elmira-college-cuts-six-academic-programs-and-three-sports-teams/3158300001/+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca) is eliminating six programs, three sports teams, and reducing its staff by 20%.

The six programs being eliminated are American Studies, Classical Studies, Economics, International Studies, Music, Philosophy & Religion, and Spanish & Hispanic Studies (that's seven, so I dunno what's up).

With Spanish shut down, I guess that means they no longer have any language programs.  Their web site says that they still offer an English major, for now.

Whats somewhat notable -- its not just staff they are reducing -- it is tenured faculty.  (They are not union, and have been in long time bad standing with the AUUP, so its not like the faculty have anyone to fight for them.)  The library will have one MLS holding librarian left - the director.   They will not have anyone left to do library instruction or collection development, for example.

Their FTE is very small - it stands about 900.  It was at one point, around 1200,  Maybe higher.   They used to offer 100% tuition for valedictorians, 80% for salutatorians, and then they changed it so it was only equal that amount for your initial year (while increasing tuition every year); then did away with those scholarships (and most others) all together in an attempt to stop the bleed.

It suffered gross financial management for decades under a particular president; for example the BoT used to have multiple board meetings per year in the Bahamas and the campus was ordered to die the rock salt purple during the winter and paint all the ladders purple while the buildings fell into disrepair.

The campus is in the middle of the town and I do hope when the college goes, they find some use for it.  The college has a very long and generally wonderful history and it will be a shame.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on June 10, 2020, 08:33:23 PM
hmmm... what would be the point of painting ladders and rock salt purple in the winter?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 11, 2020, 06:49:40 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on June 10, 2020, 08:33:23 PM
hmmm... what would be the point of painting ladders and rock salt purple in the winter?

Perhaps branding through using school colors on visible surfaces.

Super Dinky had a campus beautification day every fall before the trustees showed up for their meeting that was the kickoff for homecoming.  The tours were then of a nice campus with green lawns and pretty flowers with carefully chosen internal walks through the freshly painted handful of corridors in otherwise alarming buildings.

Thus, the impression was SD was small, but well-kept and probably the roofs could wait another year or two during these tight times.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jonadam on June 12, 2020, 04:53:06 PM
Quote from: Hibush on June 08, 2020, 12:59:03 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 08, 2020, 11:28:21 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 08, 2020, 08:01:41 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 08, 2020, 07:40:26 AM
University of Alaska system cuts 40 programs while still considering institutional mergers. (https://apnews.com/3d853bdbf4e95b72ae56c5deede6d11e)

As an illustration of how much the problems predate COVID-19:

Quote
Programs that were cut were chosen from a larger list of programs previously selected by university administrators, university officials said. Thirteen of them had previously been suspended, some as early as 2013.

I'm guessing many of those "suspended" programs had no students in them by this point.

We've discussed Alaska at length last year when big cuts to finances were proposed by the governor along with the insistence that the system only needed one campus.

This week we learned that Jim Johnsen, the president of U of Alaska will become the next president of the U of Wisconsin system. His training as a top-down business executive did not sit well with the Alaska faculty. Perhaps he is going to drive consolidation in the UW system, which we have also discussed at length here. Many of the UW campuses have worrisome demographic and financial.

Breaking news: https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2020/06/12/sole-finalist-uw-system-president-withdraws/3175165001/

Dr. (?) Johnsen withdrew from consideration. There was a lot of backlash in both states about his potential appointment, so I think that's why
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 12, 2020, 05:55:38 PM
Quote from: jonadam on June 12, 2020, 04:53:06 PM
Quote from: Hibush on June 08, 2020, 12:59:03 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 08, 2020, 11:28:21 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 08, 2020, 08:01:41 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 08, 2020, 07:40:26 AM
University of Alaska system cuts 40 programs while still considering institutional mergers. (https://apnews.com/3d853bdbf4e95b72ae56c5deede6d11e)

As an illustration of how much the problems predate COVID-19:

Quote
Programs that were cut were chosen from a larger list of programs previously selected by university administrators, university officials said. Thirteen of them had previously been suspended, some as early as 2013.

I'm guessing many of those "suspended" programs had no students in them by this point.

We've discussed Alaska at length last year when big cuts to finances were proposed by the governor along with the insistence that the system only needed one campus.

This week we learned that Jim Johnsen, the president of U of Alaska will become the next president of the U of Wisconsin system. His training as a top-down business executive did not sit well with the Alaska faculty. Perhaps he is going to drive consolidation in the UW system, which we have also discussed at length here. Many of the UW campuses have worrisome demographic and financial.

Breaking news: https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2020/06/12/sole-finalist-uw-system-president-withdraws/3175165001/

Dr. (?) Johnsen withdrew from consideration. There was a lot of backlash in both states about his potential appointment, so I think that's why

Johnsen wrote " "I appreciate the strong support from the search committee at Wisconsin, and for all those who supported my candidacy, but it's clear they have important process issues to work out." 

I read between the lines that as bad as the situation is in Alaska, with no sign of shared values between the government and the university, and no trust between the faculty and system administration, the conditions in Wisconsin are substantially worse.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on June 12, 2020, 06:34:34 PM
An update on the financial situation of Hampshire College as it reached an agreement to avoid faculty layoffs during the upcoming academic year, by institution across-the-board salary reductions for its faculty and administration:

https://www.masslive.com/coronavirus/2020/06/hampshire-college-accord-avoids-faculty-layoffs.html  (https://www.masslive.com/coronavirus/2020/06/hampshire-college-accord-avoids-faculty-layoffs.html)

QuoteHampshire College faculty and administrators have reached an accord on a negotiated agreement that will avoid faculty layoffs for the coming academic year, the college announced Thursday.

Hampshire president Ed Wingenbach hailed the agreement as a statement to the college's commitment to maintaining high quality under difficult circumstances. It calls for across-the-board salary reductions, rather than layoffs or furloughs, to allow its full faculty to remain on board.... The president will take a 50% salary reduction for 2020-21.

QuoteDoing so required notable concessions from the faculty. Salary reductions will be progressive, with higher-salaried senior faculty absorbing higher cuts (in both dollar value and percentage) to protect the salaries of junior faculty members, visiting faculty members, and faculty associates.

Faculty and administration agreed to a Voluntary Separation Plan (VSP) that, among its provisions, allows separating faculty members to retain their affiliation with Hampshire.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 13, 2020, 03:20:10 AM
I think the fact that Amherst College, which is only four miles away and has a $2.5 billion endowment, has not tried to subsume Hampshire into itself, or at minimum acquire its real estate, shows how little reason there is to keep Hampshire open. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sinenomine on June 13, 2020, 03:49:01 AM
I've long suspected that UMass is waiting until Hampshire folds, at which point they'll come in and grab the real estate.

Quote from: spork on June 13, 2020, 03:20:10 AM
I think the fact that Amherst College, which is only four miles away and has a $2.5 billion endowment, has not tried to subsume Hampshire into itself, or at minimum acquire its real estate, shows how little reason there is to keep Hampshire open.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 13, 2020, 06:26:34 AM
Quote
The idea for Hampshire originated in 1958 when the presidents of Amherst, Mount Holyoke, and Smith Colleges, as well as the University of Massachusetts Amherst, appointed a committee to reexamine the assumptions and practices of liberal arts education.

Their report, "The New College Plan," advocated many of the features that have since been realized in the Hampshire curriculum: emphasis on each student's curiosity and motivation; broad, multidisciplinary learning; and close mentoring relationships with teachers.

In 1965, Amherst College alumnus Harold F. Johnson donated $6 million toward the founding of Hampshire College.

With a matching grant from the Ford Foundation, Hampshire's first trustees purchased 800 acres of orchard and farmland in South Amherst, Massachusetts, and construction began. Hampshire admitted its first students in 1970.

https://www.hampshire.edu/discover-hampshire/history
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on June 13, 2020, 06:33:36 AM
^ Right....

Hampshire was the co-created brainchild of those schools...they may individually harbor secret, cynical hopes of re-couping on any losses via some take-over mechanism, but it may not be so simple as a buy-out per se.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 13, 2020, 06:39:11 AM
Quote from: mamselle on June 13, 2020, 06:33:36 AM
^ Right....

Hampshire was the co-created brainchild of those schools...they may individually harbor secret, cynical hopes of re-couping on any losses via some take-over mechanism, but it may not be so simple as a buy-out per se.

M.

I was thinking the other way that even the invested parents have declared the experiment a failure.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on June 13, 2020, 06:55:23 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 13, 2020, 06:39:11 AM
Quote from: mamselle on June 13, 2020, 06:33:36 AM
^ Right....

Hampshire was the co-created brainchild of those schools...they may individually harbor secret, cynical hopes of re-couping on any losses via some take-over mechanism, but it may not be so simple as a buy-out per se.

M.

I was thinking the other way that even the invested parents have declared the experiment a failure.

Anyone know how many of the features they incorporated in the "new" place they actually adapted to their own institutions? That would reflect how sold they were on it. Especially since they had half a century to do so.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 14, 2020, 05:41:09 PM
"The Vermont State Colleges could face operating deficits anywhere from $19 million to $46 million next year as the pandemic further depresses enrollment." (https://vtdigger.org/2020/06/09/reports-state-colleges-will-need-30-million-or-more-to-get-through-next-year/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 14, 2020, 08:52:47 PM
Facing a shortfall of at least $121M, CU Boulder announces pay cuts. (https://www.denverpost.com/2020/06/11/cu-boulder-cuts-pay-for-employees-earning-more-than-60k/)

Virginia Tech is discussing pay cuts up to 20%. (https://www.roanoke.com/news/education/virginia-tech-committee-furloughs-pay-cuts-remain-in-play-tuition-freeze-takes-another-step/article_828d85eb-4811-527c-a167-aa623fcc34fa.html)

I'm sure Wahoo has been keeping track of the almost 100 four-year schools that have cut athletic programs for the budget. (https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/30/number-of-eliminated-college-sports-programs-nearing-100/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 15, 2020, 06:26:46 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 14, 2020, 08:52:47 PM
I'm sure Wahoo has been keeping track of the almost 100 four-year schools that have cut athletic programs for the budget. (https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/30/number-of-eliminated-college-sports-programs-nearing-100/)

Not 100 schools, but 100 teams. "Of the 78 teams lost in Divisions II and III and the NAIA, 44 were from three schools that closed at least in part because of financial fallout from the pandemic."

With so many of the teams being from closed schools, it does not make the eliminations seem like sports disinvestment is a common budget tactic.

Furthermore, "No school from a Power Five conference is known to have dropped any sports."  So schools with the biggest athletic budgets have not scaled back at all.

Some ADs may have thought from time to time that it would be easier to run the program without the rest of the institution, but those 44 teams are not likely to carry on after the school closure.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 15, 2020, 08:48:24 AM
The Virginia Tech article noted that they find themselves in the awkward position of having to make serious cuts in operations while still being committed to going ahead with close to $200 million in construction programs.  It's going to be even more embarrassing if those shiny new buildings open and there's no money available to actually make use of them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 15, 2020, 09:05:11 AM
Quote from: Hibush on June 15, 2020, 06:26:46 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 14, 2020, 08:52:47 PM
I'm sure Wahoo has been keeping track of the almost 100 four-year schools that have cut athletic programs for the budget. (https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/30/number-of-eliminated-college-sports-programs-nearing-100/)

Not 100 schools, but 100 teams. "Of the 78 teams lost in Divisions II and III and the NAIA, 44 were from three schools that closed at least in part because of financial fallout from the pandemic."

I have not, actually, but thanks for the heads up. 

I wish our uni would kill its athletics now, but that doesn't seem to be in the works.  We are not as desperate as other places, however.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 15, 2020, 09:19:42 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 15, 2020, 09:05:11 AM
Quote from: Hibush on June 15, 2020, 06:26:46 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 14, 2020, 08:52:47 PM
I'm sure Wahoo has been keeping track of the almost 100 four-year schools that have cut athletic programs for the budget. (https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/30/number-of-eliminated-college-sports-programs-nearing-100/)

Not 100 schools, but 100 teams. "Of the 78 teams lost in Divisions II and III and the NAIA, 44 were from three schools that closed at least in part because of financial fallout from the pandemic."

I have not, actually, but thanks for the heads up. 

I wish our uni would kill its athletics now, but that doesn't seem to be in the works.  We are not as desperate as other places, however.

I noticed a quote in the article that mentioned that larger athletic programs have "a ton of fat" to cut before cutting whole teams.  If those programs really are viable cash cows, then it's time to start milking them harder!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 17, 2020, 07:41:47 AM
Colleges are now looking for permission to sell off some of the family silver to meet the current emergency:


https://www.chronicle.com/article/In-Dire-Times-Asking-Donors/248996?cid=wcontentlist

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 17, 2020, 07:43:41 AM
Quote from: apl68 on June 17, 2020, 07:41:47 AM
Colleges are now looking for permission to sell off some of the family silver to meet the current emergency:


https://www.chronicle.com/article/In-Dire-Times-Asking-Donors/248996?cid=wcontentlist

For those playing along at home, if your institution already started selling the silver two years ago, then you had best be on the market yesterday.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 17, 2020, 08:10:47 AM
Quote from: apl68 on June 17, 2020, 07:41:47 AM
Colleges are now looking for permission to sell off some of the family silver to meet the current emergency:


https://www.chronicle.com/article/In-Dire-Times-Asking-Donors/248996?cid=wcontentlist

Having donors of restricted gifts unrestrict them is a continuous desire of college presidents and VPs for finance. It gives them more power to decide what to spend money on.

Asking donors to unrestrict funds "in times like these" may make sense to the presidents. However, the donors usually restricted the funds so their favored function wouldn't get cut "in times like these." Making that ask can backfire easily.

The alternative is to borrow against the paying power of the endowment. It says something that Princeton, with the highest per-student endowment, has decided to borrow half a billion dollars.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on June 17, 2020, 08:31:59 AM
Quote from: Hibush on June 17, 2020, 08:10:47 AM

The alternative is to borrow against the paying power of the endowment. It says something that Princeton, with the highest per-student endowment, has decided to borrow half a billion dollars.

This raises a fascinating legal question. I'm guessing, if the institution went bankrupt, the endowment could be used to pay off creditors, and the restrictions would no longer apply. Is that correct?

Also, sometimes companies go bankrupt, and then someone buys the assets (including name and branding) of the company, and creates a "new" company such as "BigCorp 2020" to distinguish it from "BigCorp". I seem to recall sometimes the buyer is a former owner of the original company buying the assets for a song. Could an institution essentially do that? i.e. go bankrupt; use the endowment to pay off creditors, and then create a "new" Uni2.0 having purchased all of the assets cheap?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 17, 2020, 09:39:12 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 17, 2020, 08:31:59 AM
Quote from: Hibush on June 17, 2020, 08:10:47 AM

The alternative is to borrow against the paying power of the endowment. It says something that Princeton, with the highest per-student endowment, has decided to borrow half a billion dollars.

This raises a fascinating legal question. I'm guessing, if the institution went bankrupt, the endowment could be used to pay off creditors, and the restrictions would no longer apply. Is that correct?

Also, sometimes companies go bankrupt, and then someone buys the assets (including name and branding) of the company, and creates a "new" company such as "BigCorp 2020" to distinguish it from "BigCorp". I seem to recall sometimes the buyer is a former owner of the original company buying the assets for a song. Could an institution essentially do that? i.e. go bankrupt; use the endowment to pay off creditors, and then create a "new" Uni2.0 having purchased all of the assets cheap?

I don't know the details of collateral on these loans. I think the lenders look at the ability to service the loan from endowment income, similar to how people are judged on their employment income. So if Princeton needs $50 million a year to service that loan, they can us the 5% payout from a mere billion dollars of their unrestricted endowment.

Is this a good time to partner with a vulture capitalist to get the brand value of a reputable-but-financially challenged university or college? Why yes! You will need to seed their board of trustees with co-conspirators, but your vulture capitalist partner will be well versed in that manouver. All of the debt--including as much new debt as you can find--tenure obligations,  deadwood faculty and decrepit infrastructure go with CoolCollege; all the endowment, new buildings, younger and adjunct faculty, faithful staff and other valuable assets go with CoolCollege 2020. There might be an victim opportunity  near you now.

If there are not brokers shopping these deals around now, that is another business opportunity where you can make bank on the fees alone, without the ongoing effort to go through the motions of providing education.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 17, 2020, 10:50:46 AM
Restoring Regional Public Universities (https://www.brookings.edu/research/restoring-regional-public-universities-for-recovery-in-the-great-lakes/) report.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on June 17, 2020, 12:32:57 PM
Schools actively looking to fill their seats for Fall 2020. I think this is a list you don't want to be on.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2020/06/15/169-best-colleges-still-searching-for-2020-applicants-and-offering-tuition-discounts/?utm_source=FBPAGE&utm_medium=social&utm_content=3425602489&utm_campaign=sprinklrForbesMainFB#6f92d909236b (https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2020/06/15/169-best-colleges-still-searching-for-2020-applicants-and-offering-tuition-discounts/?utm_source=FBPAGE&utm_medium=social&utm_content=3425602489&utm_campaign=sprinklrForbesMainFB#6f92d909236b)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on June 17, 2020, 06:33:15 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on June 17, 2020, 12:32:57 PM
Schools actively looking to fill their seats for Fall 2020. I think this is a list you don't want to be on.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2020/06/15/169-best-colleges-still-searching-for-2020-applicants-and-offering-tuition-discounts/?utm_source=FBPAGE&utm_medium=social&utm_content=3425602489&utm_campaign=sprinklrForbesMainFB#6f92d909236b (https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2020/06/15/169-best-colleges-still-searching-for-2020-applicants-and-offering-tuition-discounts/?utm_source=FBPAGE&utm_medium=social&utm_content=3425602489&utm_campaign=sprinklrForbesMainFB#6f92d909236b)

My institution is on the list. Friday report showed that we're about 3% below normal for deposits. I'm at  a public university in a state with biennial budget. Our fall enrollment affects state support for 2021-2023, so we will be accepting students until the first week of classes.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on June 17, 2020, 06:41:41 PM
Sorry to hear that. It must be startling/scary to see a name you recognize, because it's yours.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 17, 2020, 10:13:08 PM
Quote from: mamselle on June 17, 2020, 06:41:41 PM
Sorry to hear that. It must be startling/scary to see a name you recognize, because it's yours.

M.

Nah, you get used to it.  Once I found out the list existed, I think whatever institution I was at was on the list every year.

The elite institutions have wait lists; the honest mid-tier institutions claim rolling admissions.  In July, the Super Dinkys start contacting prospective students rejected in March to see if those prospective students would be willing to be coached through writing a letter requesting special review for a nearly guaranteed acceptance for the fall.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on June 18, 2020, 12:05:56 AM
Quote from: mamselle on June 17, 2020, 06:41:41 PM
Sorry to hear that. It must be startling/scary to see a name you recognize, because it's yours.

M.

Sorry, I should have included a quote of Vkw's post to clarify, that was directed to them.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on June 18, 2020, 05:14:49 AM
Quote from: mamselle on June 18, 2020, 12:05:56 AM
Quote from: mamselle on June 17, 2020, 06:41:41 PM
Sorry to hear that. It must be startling/scary to see a name you recognize, because it's yours.

M.

Sorry, I should have included a quote of Vkw's post to clarify, that was directed to them.

M.

It wasn't particularly scary, because the university president keeps explaining that this fall's enrollment affects our state aid for future years. Lots of updates to various employee groups lately and they all include enrollment spiel. So I was half expecting to see us on the list, because we've been told we'll continue recruiting all summer.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 18, 2020, 05:50:26 AM
Quote from: Vkw10 on June 18, 2020, 05:14:49 AM
Quote from: mamselle on June 18, 2020, 12:05:56 AM
Quote from: mamselle on June 17, 2020, 06:41:41 PM
Sorry to hear that. It must be startling/scary to see a name you recognize, because it's yours.

M.

Sorry, I should have included a quote of Vkw's post to clarify, that was directed to them.

M.

It wasn't particularly scary, because the university president keeps explaining that this fall's enrollment affects our state aid for future years. Lots of updates to various employee groups lately and they all include enrollment spiel. So I was half expecting to see us on the list, because we've been told we'll continue recruiting all summer.

Most summers many non-elite institutions keep admitting all the way through the end of the fall add period.

This isn't new for those institutions and claiming its unheard of is one of the frustrations in dealing with people who don't actually know how the whole higher ed ecosystems work.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on June 18, 2020, 06:46:34 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 18, 2020, 05:50:26 AM
Quote from: Vkw10 on June 18, 2020, 05:14:49 AM
Quote from: mamselle on June 18, 2020, 12:05:56 AM
Quote from: mamselle on June 17, 2020, 06:41:41 PM
Sorry to hear that. It must be startling/scary to see a name you recognize, because it's yours.

M.

Sorry, I should have included a quote of Vkw's post to clarify, that was directed to them.

M.

It wasn't particularly scary, because the university president keeps explaining that this fall's enrollment affects our state aid for future years. Lots of updates to various employee groups lately and they all include enrollment spiel. So I was half expecting to see us on the list, because we've been told we'll continue recruiting all summer.

Most summers many non-elite institutions keep admitting all the way through the end of the fall add period.

This isn't new for those institutions and claiming its unheard of is one of the frustrations in dealing with people who don't actually know how the whole higher ed ecosystems work.

Also, some of this is program-specific.

Some of ours fill up very early, and there's no room for extra bodies. Some never fill, at least as much as we'd like. Our grad programs, for instance (online, so no issues about things like housing or the logistics of moving) will accept until the first day of classes.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 18, 2020, 08:26:43 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 17, 2020, 10:13:08 PM
In July, the Super Dinkys start contacting prospective students rejected in March to see if those prospective students would be willing to be coached through writing a letter requesting special review for a nearly guaranteed acceptance for the fall.

Having to troll back through the reject bin to scrounge up students would be a humiliating thing to do.  I'd gotten the impression, though, that SD hardly ever rejected anybody in the first place.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on June 18, 2020, 08:34:30 AM
At Swampy state here the term is "back-filling". We do it by dropping the bar on transfer admits. And everyone wonders why our transfers struggle so much?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 18, 2020, 10:05:31 AM
Quote from: apl68 on June 18, 2020, 08:26:43 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 17, 2020, 10:13:08 PM
In July, the Super Dinkys start contacting prospective students rejected in March to see if those prospective students would be willing to be coached through writing a letter requesting special review for a nearly guaranteed acceptance for the fall.

Having to troll back through the reject bin to scrounge up students would be a humiliating thing to do.  I'd gotten the impression, though, that SD hardly ever rejected anybody in the first place.

Both conditions can be true simultaneously. I once worked at a university with low admissions standards that often pulled from the reject pile in July and August if there were still open seats.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 18, 2020, 10:33:20 AM
Quote from: apl68 on June 18, 2020, 08:26:43 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 17, 2020, 10:13:08 PM
In July, the Super Dinkys start contacting prospective students rejected in March to see if those prospective students would be willing to be coached through writing a letter requesting special review for a nearly guaranteed acceptance for the fall.

Having to troll back through the reject bin to scrounge up students would be a humiliating thing to do.  I'd gotten the impression, though, that SD hardly ever rejected anybody in the first place.

Every fall, SD's plan would be to maintain standards and compete harder for college-ready students because we had such extensive data on what was necessary to succeed at SD.

Every spring, the applicants who fell below the clear cut-offs were nicely, but firmly, rejected.  When I arrived at SD, there was a process for appealing denial and there was a committee that reviewed cases from January until September.  Coaches in particular (70% of entering students were athletes) were good at helping assemble subjective cases for why we should take a chance on this particular student.

By the end of May, the enrollment numbers would be stark on who has decided to do something else instead of returning for another year at SD and how few of the college-ready regional HS graduates wanted to attend a college with under 20 majors, few of which were the ones in high demand by the good students with a planned future, that had an annual sticker price comparable to annual family income in the region.

At that point, someone would go back to the pile and start making the case for why being only short X amount on this one criterion is really not that bad if we draw on student support services.  Someone else would go through and make the case that we didn't look at the interactions of factors such that being a little low on all of these numerical factors, but really high on a more subjective measure tends to work out for students, again if we draw on student support services.

Thus, we'd end up with being only a little short on enrollment most years, although the final cut was along the lines of "functionally literate, no criminal record, and could scrounge the funding somehow"

However, eventually, SD got a provost who asserted that SD should just admit on first application all the people who would be likely to be pulled from the reject pile in August (i.e., avoid that embarrassment) based on quantitative information.  That provost disbanded the review committee, because there was no work to be done.  The numbers were the numbers and the only request for review would be to correct inaccuracies in the reported numbers.

That first summer was nice because we had an entering cohort in place by early June with no revisit to the reject pile.  That first winter break wrap-up was horrendous because the numbers used for admission weren't based on who graduated from SD in a reasonable time; it was based on who spent at least a year with SD.  The dismissal for lack of satisfactory academic progress takes a full year (go on probation at winter break, get the "this is your last chance" letter in May, and then be dismissed at the end of summer session for not fixing the deficiencies).

Thus, SD would turn people down during the focus-on-education stage and then would have to sigh heavily during the focus-on-paying-bills stage.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 18, 2020, 10:48:15 AM
So it's a matter of aspiring to have standards each year, then regularly discovering that finances won't allow it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 18, 2020, 01:42:20 PM
Quote from: apl68 on June 18, 2020, 10:48:15 AM
So it's a matter of aspiring to have standards each year, then regularly discovering that finances won't allow it.

As one of my colleagues put it, let's flip the coin today to find out if we're the nice SD who will exhaust every venue to retain a struggling student or the mean SD who has rules and means it.

SD didn't replace full-time faculty with cheaper adjuncts or huge sections (25 was a large section) to save money.  That was a point of honor all around.  However, a SD recent president said in front of faculty that no one should be trying to teach people with 16 ACTs in regular courses (22 is college ready) and was surprised at faculty telling her that some of their students had relevant ACT component scores of 13 or lower.

A newer president flat out stated that our admissions cycle that year would be buying good students.  We did end up with a large faction of transfer students on top of an average size first-year cohort.  Our discount rate was well above 50% that year and yet the first-year cohort still averaged slightly below college ready.  We had clipped the low tail, but hadn't extended the upper tail; we still had a bunch of people who wanted to be athletes and were willing to settle for the handful of majors offered.

The faculty flat out refused to consider being a senior college that accepted mostly transfer students ready for their major courses because that would have resulted in more than half the tenured faculty losing their jobs with general education being irrelevant and having no majors.

Thus, the one growth area with prepared enough students to succeed was flat out rejected by faculty as too large a change in mission.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on June 18, 2020, 05:15:21 PM
Polly, I could almost SWEAR we've worked together at some point ...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 18, 2020, 05:44:45 PM
Quote from: selecter on June 18, 2020, 05:15:21 PM
Polly, I could almost SWEAR we've worked together at some point ...

Many of my colleagues from SD's competitors tell similar stories because it's not just SD who had these problems.

If you're Glen, though, then we definitely worked together.  How's that new/old job going?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 18, 2020, 05:48:56 PM
HBCUs have long been in Dire Financial Straits. But a second big donation just made the news, and the critical difference from previous ones is that the donor is not an alumnus. That is a big positive distinction.

The donor is billionaire Netflix CEO Reed Hastings who gave $150 million to Morehouse, Spellman and UNCF. Granted, these are the cream of HBCUs. Nevertheless, tapping into eight and nine figure donations as a regular practice would fundamentally change their ability to train Black leaders.

From NY Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/17/business/netflix-reed-hastings-hbcus.html) (paywalled)

QuoteDavid A. Thomas, president of Morehouse, said that raising money at the scale usually given to the top, historically white schools had been near impossible. "The reality is that our alumni have done quite well. But I don't think we have any billionaires," he said. "Before he arrived at Morehouse, Dr. Thomas taught at Harvard Business School and was the dean at Georgetown University's business school.

"There you had much more wealth within the alumni base, so you don't have to go out as much," he said. "And it's easy to raise money from people who aren't in the alumni base because your alumni can take you to them. Here, it's really about developing and cultivating relationships, oftentimes with people who don't know what an H.B.C.U. is.""
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 18, 2020, 06:28:48 PM
Quote from: Hibush on June 18, 2020, 05:48:56 PM
HBCUs have long been in Dire Financial Straits. But a second big donation just made the news, and the critical difference from previous ones is that the donor is not an alumnus. That is a big positive distinction.

The donor is billionaire Netflix CEO Reed Hastings who gave $150 million to Morehouse, Spellman and UNCF. Granted, these are the cream of HBCUs. Nevertheless, tapping into eight and nine figure donations as a regular practice would fundamentally change their ability to train Black leaders.

From NY Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/17/business/netflix-reed-hastings-hbcus.html) (paywalled)

QuoteDavid A. Thomas, president of Morehouse, said that raising money at the scale usually given to the top, historically white schools had been near impossible. "The reality is that our alumni have done quite well. But I don't think we have any billionaires," he said. "Before he arrived at Morehouse, Dr. Thomas taught at Harvard Business School and was the dean at Georgetown University's business school.

"There you had much more wealth within the alumni base, so you don't have to go out as much," he said. "And it's easy to raise money from people who aren't in the alumni base because your alumni can take you to them. Here, it's really about developing and cultivating relationships, oftentimes with people who don't know what an H.B.C.U. is.""

Rock on Mr. Hastings!

This is just the sort of philanthropy we need. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 22, 2020, 10:07:30 AM
Yes, it would be good to see more of this.  I'm happy for the HCBUs who've received these gifts.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 22, 2020, 05:17:00 PM
Should we add all of Australia (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-20/study-arts-and-humanities-government-fees-tertiary-education/12374124) to the list?

The reduction in government per-student allotments for the arts and humanities is really bad, of course, but when you take into account projected student-side contributions, they actually come out OK--provided, of course, that the cuts don't end up radically reducing the number of students in those fields. But when you compare the government and student numbers side-by-side (https://miro.medium.com/max/1400/1*C7RsapYxlVyOV4xq-mAMEQ.jpeg), what you see is that total funding for the pure and applied sciences is dramatically reduced. And environmental studies faces far and away the largest cut, at around $10k per student--no surprise there; it is Australia, after all.

So: under the guise of job-readiness and only harming the arts and humanities, Australia is actually significantly cutting government funding of most of higher education, including the applied sciences it purports to want to support.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on June 22, 2020, 05:30:41 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 22, 2020, 05:17:00 PM
Should we add all of Australia (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-20/study-arts-and-humanities-government-fees-tertiary-education/12374124) to the list?

The reduction in government per-student allotments for the arts and humanities are really bad, of course, but when you take into account projected student-side contributions, they actually come out OK--provided, of course, that the cuts don't end up radically reducing the number of students in those fields.

If they go through with it, it should answer a couple of important questions:

These are two questions that, to the best of my knowldege, have only been kind of speculated about up to this point. Having actual data to go on should be useful for future discussions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 23, 2020, 07:27:24 AM
Johnsen has resigned as Alaska president (https://www.chronicle.com/article/After-Failed-Jump-to/249036?cid=wcontentlist_hp_latest). Apparently is is better to be unemployed than to lead the Wisconsin system.

Why are presidential searches so secret these days? The petition that prompted his resignation made the case that "Jim Johnsen has demonstrated that he is more willing to invest his efforts in advancing his own career than in leading the university system through these difficult times."


Quote from: Hibush on June 12, 2020, 05:55:38 PM
Quote from: jonadam on June 12, 2020, 04:53:06 PM
Quote from: Hibush on June 08, 2020, 12:59:03 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 08, 2020, 11:28:21 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 08, 2020, 08:01:41 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 08, 2020, 07:40:26 AM
University of Alaska system cuts 40 programs while still considering institutional mergers. (https://apnews.com/3d853bdbf4e95b72ae56c5deede6d11e)

As an illustration of how much the problems predate COVID-19:

Quote
Programs that were cut were chosen from a larger list of programs previously selected by university administrators, university officials said. Thirteen of them had previously been suspended, some as early as 2013.

I'm guessing many of those "suspended" programs had no students in them by this point.

We've discussed Alaska at length last year when big cuts to finances were proposed by the governor along with the insistence that the system only needed one campus.

This week we learned that Jim Johnsen, the president of U of Alaska will become the next president of the U of Wisconsin system. His training as a top-down business executive did not sit well with the Alaska faculty. Perhaps he is going to drive consolidation in the UW system, which we have also discussed at length here. Many of the UW campuses have worrisome demographic and financial.

Breaking news: https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2020/06/12/sole-finalist-uw-system-president-withdraws/3175165001/

Dr. (?) Johnsen withdrew from consideration. There was a lot of backlash in both states about his potential appointment, so I think that's why

Johnsen wrote " "I appreciate the strong support from the search committee at Wisconsin, and for all those who supported my candidacy, but it's clear they have important process issues to work out." 

I read between the lines that as bad as the situation is in Alaska, with no sign of shared values between the government and the university, and no trust between the faculty and system administration, the conditions in Wisconsin are substantially worse.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on June 23, 2020, 09:20:29 AM
I know there is a furlough thread, but this seems more appropriate here.

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/06/23/deep-faculty-cuts-u-michigan-flint
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: onthefringe on June 23, 2020, 10:32:20 AM
Re Jim Johnsen, if I were 60ish and had been pulling down a salary of minimally $325,000 per year for five years, I might prefer to "retire" than to get involved in the snakes nest that is undoubtedly the Wisconsin system in the time if COVID.He can alway consult or something if he needs cash.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 23, 2020, 01:55:09 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on June 23, 2020, 09:20:29 AM
I know there is a furlough thread, but this seems more appropriate here.

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/06/23/deep-faculty-cuts-u-michigan-flint

Almost half of their lecturers in one fell swoop!  I don't think we've ever heard before of a school that size experiencing such a large cut.

Enrollment was already down 16% over five years.  Looks like the university system has decided that Flint is their most expendable school.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on June 23, 2020, 02:37:18 PM
This is from one of the comments to the article:

Quote
If we had more financial aid, for example, something like the GoBlue Guarantee which is available only for Ann Arbor where students from families that make under $65,000 a year get free tuition, we would have more students. (By the way when asked about why Ann Arbor won't fund something like GoBlue at Flint and Dearborn, Schlissell has said that the program is there to attract more POC and poor students to Ann Arbor, and that Flint and Dearborn already have enough)

Anybody know if this is accurate? If so, it's an interesting situation- funds used to expand diversity at a particular campus, ironically, aren't used to support the diversity of the system, no doubt because the scrutiny of each campus would mean the system wouldn't get the same amount of credit.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on June 23, 2020, 03:14:29 PM
Quote from: apl68 on June 23, 2020, 01:55:09 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on June 23, 2020, 09:20:29 AM
I know there is a furlough thread, but this seems more appropriate here.

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/06/23/deep-faculty-cuts-u-michigan-flint

Almost half of their lecturers in one fell swoop!  I don't think we've ever heard before of a school that size experiencing such a large cut.

Enrollment was already down 16% over five years.  Looks like the university system has decided that Flint is their most expendable school.

Just looked at the Math Department. Assuming I counted correctly, there 21 full time faculty, 11 of them lecturers.

I'm pretty comfortable from what I've read that UM Flint is letting go or reducing appointments for well over half of its full and part time faculty.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 24, 2020, 08:11:54 AM
Government considering additional funds to help education reopen (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/06/24/alexander-considering-additional-funds-help-colleges-reopen).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 24, 2020, 04:25:15 PM
UConn eliminates 4 sports (https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/uconn-eliminates-sports-covid-19-related-budget-cuts-71433701?cid=clicksource_4380645_2_heads_hero_live_headlines_hed).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on June 24, 2020, 04:29:45 PM
If that saves their tiny but very good medieval program, that's a win in my book.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 26, 2020, 01:22:43 AM
Johnson & Wales U. will close its Denver and Miami campuses at the end of the 2020-21 academic year:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/06/26/johnson-wales-university-will-close-denver-and-miami-campuses (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/06/26/johnson-wales-university-will-close-denver-and-miami-campuses).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 26, 2020, 05:28:19 AM
Quote from: spork on June 26, 2020, 01:22:43 AM
Johnson & Wales U. will close its Denver and Miami campuses at the end of the 2020-21 academic year:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/06/26/johnson-wales-university-will-close-denver-and-miami-campuses (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/06/26/johnson-wales-university-will-close-denver-and-miami-campuses).

This is a Northeastern school that is actually trying to go where the students will be in the future. Florida and urban Colorado are both growing areas, so it makes some sense. Apparently they didn't quite have the right juice to make it work. Culinary schools have been having a rough time of it, so that may be part of the challenge. They have had the combination of high tuition for a degree that qualifies you for a job with terrible wages and working conditions
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on June 29, 2020, 11:10:12 AM

Ursinus goes public with a 66% discount rate. They don't make it clear if that is the first-year discount rate or the average discount rate. At some point it doesn't matter if you maintain that trend for 4 years.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2020/06/29/ursinus-college-met-its-admissions-goals-money-and-faculty-attention

Will schools like this be able to keep doing this? I realize time will tell, but it doesn't seem sustainable. Net tuition revenue will flatten out eventually unless you can pick up more bodies.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 29, 2020, 11:30:42 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on June 29, 2020, 11:10:12 AM

Ursinus goes public with a 66% discount rate. They don't make it clear if that is the first-year discount rate or the average discount rate. At some point it doesn't matter if you maintain that trend for 4 years.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2020/06/29/ursinus-college-met-its-admissions-goals-money-and-faculty-attention

Will schools like this be able to keep doing this? I realize time will tell, but it doesn't seem sustainable. Net tuition revenue will flatten out eventually unless you can pick up more bodies.

I need to preface this by saying that I don't work at Ursinus nor do I know anyone who works there.

To answer your question: no. It is not sustainable. The statistic in the article that I found most striking: discount rate of 66% this year, but last year it was 65%. This is nowhere near the average, as is stated in the article, and it's not caused by the pandemic. One-fifth of the students are minority and a fifth are first generation. There is probably significant overlap between those two groups, but in general Ursinus is not pulling in nearly enough full-pay or close to full-pay students. Those students have many other options and the vast majority exercise them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 30, 2020, 09:23:35 AM
Illinois Wesleyan: (https://www.wglt.org/post/iwu-struggles-over-identity-and-academic-offerings#stream/0)

QuoteOn June 12, IWU sent pre-termination notices to 25 tenured faculty in the departments of Anthropology, Philosophy, Religion, Sociology, the School of Music, and French and Italian within the department of World Languages Literatures and Cultures, telling them their positions were under review for possible termination. That's about 21% of IWU's faculty.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on June 30, 2020, 09:56:25 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on June 29, 2020, 11:10:12 AM

Ursinus goes public with a 66% discount rate. They don't make it clear if that is the first-year discount rate or the average discount rate. At some point it doesn't matter if you maintain that trend for 4 years.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2020/06/29/ursinus-college-met-its-admissions-goals-money-and-faculty-attention



It says in the article that one of the reasons they have attracted as many students as they have is that faculty were asked to call prospective students to answer questions, talk the place up, etc.

We did that a couple of years ago at Artem U and I called around a dozen admits who had not yet tendered a deposit.   If the number I had was a land line, I usually had to leave a message with mom or dad since the student was never home.  If the number I had was the student's cell phone, it went straight to voice mail since nobody picks up for a number they do not recognize. 

I came away from the experience feeling like a stalker and ended up not convincing anybody to attend Artem U.

I don't know what secret sauce Ursinus used, but in my experience this was just a waste of time.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Bonnie on June 30, 2020, 10:42:55 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 30, 2020, 09:23:35 AM
Illinois Wesleyan: (https://www.wglt.org/post/iwu-struggles-over-identity-and-academic-offerings#stream/0)

QuoteOn June 12, IWU sent pre-termination notices to 25 tenured faculty in the departments of Anthropology, Philosophy, Religion, Sociology, the School of Music, and French and Italian within the department of World Languages Literatures and Cultures, telling them their positions were under review for possible termination. That's about 21% of IWU's faculty.

Particularly troubling about the IWU issue: faculty and admin had spent the year doing program reviews. Some programs were marked for discontinuation. And then operating on its own, admin added additional programs into the discontinuation heap. For instance, sociology and anthropology I believe made it through the intensive review process marked as "sustain." And then admin tossed them on the discontinue heap without explanation.

(That's the story as told to me over the last 10 months by a friend at IWU.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 30, 2020, 11:20:41 AM
Quote from: Bonnie on June 30, 2020, 10:42:55 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 30, 2020, 09:23:35 AM
Illinois Wesleyan: (https://www.wglt.org/post/iwu-struggles-over-identity-and-academic-offerings#stream/0)

QuoteOn June 12, IWU sent pre-termination notices to 25 tenured faculty in the departments of Anthropology, Philosophy, Religion, Sociology, the School of Music, and French and Italian within the department of World Languages Literatures and Cultures, telling them their positions were under review for possible termination. That's about 21% of IWU's faculty.

Particularly troubling about the IWU issue: faculty and admin had spent the year doing program reviews. Some programs were marked for discontinuation. And then operating on its own, admin added additional programs into the discontinuation heap. For instance, sociology and anthropology I believe made it through the intensive review process marked as "sustain." And then admin tossed them on the discontinue heap without explanation.

(That's the story as told to me over the last 10 months by a friend at IWU.)

Yeah, the article seems to confirm that. Very troubling.

It's worth noting that IWU's VP of finance, Matt Bierman, did something similar at Western Illinois in 2016, before he jumped to IWU. Part of his rationale for the program cuts was the need to maintain more than 6 months' operating cash in reserves, which was more than the WIU endowment. He also set a number of majors that every program had to have each year (based on the goal of ensuring 60% of Illinois adults earned a college degree), regardless of size or status as a discovery major. The result was the elimination of philosophy, religious studies, women's studies, and Afrian American studies (Physics, Geography, Health Sciences, Musical Theatre, and Bilingual/Bicultural Education were also on the chopping block, and a few others, but I think they all survived), although some of these programs did manage to grow to meet the required numbers once the targets were set.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on June 30, 2020, 11:37:20 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on June 30, 2020, 09:56:25 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on June 29, 2020, 11:10:12 AM

Ursinus goes public with a 66% discount rate. They don't make it clear if that is the first-year discount rate or the average discount rate. At some point it doesn't matter if you maintain that trend for 4 years.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2020/06/29/ursinus-college-met-its-admissions-goals-money-and-faculty-attention



It says in the article that one of the reasons they have attracted as many students as they have is that faculty were asked to call prospective students to answer questions, talk the place up, etc.

We did that a couple of years ago at Artem U and I called around a dozen admits who had not yet tendered a deposit.   If the number I had was a land line, I usually had to leave a message with mom or dad since the student was never home.  If the number I had was the student's cell phone, it went straight to voice mail since nobody picks up for a number they do not recognize. 

I came away from the experience feeling like a stalker and ended up not convincing anybody to attend Artem U.

I don't know what secret sauce Ursinus used, but in my experience this was just a waste of time.

Super Dinky did the faculty calls to prospective students as a group phone bank every year.  We had a pretty good pick-up rate, but we didn't have much of an effect on enrollment from the phone calls themselves.

The coaches who spent months texting and calling prospects had a substantial effect on student enrollment.

A big discount rate had a real effect on enrollment as we experimented year to year with the rate.

Students who did a campus visit and spoke with faculty tended to come as people who were really interested in the small campus experience.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 30, 2020, 01:01:53 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on June 30, 2020, 09:56:25 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on June 29, 2020, 11:10:12 AM

Ursinus goes public with a 66% discount rate. They don't make it clear if that is the first-year discount rate or the average discount rate. At some point it doesn't matter if you maintain that trend for 4 years.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2020/06/29/ursinus-college-met-its-admissions-goals-money-and-faculty-attention



It says in the article that one of the reasons they have attracted as many students as they have is that faculty were asked to call prospective students to answer questions, talk the place up, etc.

We did that a couple of years ago at Artem U and I called around a dozen admits who had not yet tendered a deposit.   If the number I had was a land line, I usually had to leave a message with mom or dad since the student was never home.  If the number I had was the student's cell phone, it went straight to voice mail since nobody picks up for a number they do not recognize. 

I came away from the experience feeling like a stalker and ended up not convincing anybody to attend Artem U.

I don't know what secret sauce Ursinus used, but in my experience this was just a waste of time.

It was a waste of time for Ursinus too if its discount rate is now 66%. The school is bottom feeding.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 30, 2020, 03:03:08 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 30, 2020, 11:20:41 AM
He also set a number of majors that every program had to have each year (based on the goal of ensuring 60% of Illinois adults earned a college degree), regardless of size or status as a discovery major. The result was the elimination of philosophy, religious studies, women's studies, and Afrian American studies ...although some of these programs did manage to grow to meet the required numbers once the targets were set.

A bit OT, but this looks like a nice case of using a supposedly unbiased algorithm to disempower the underempowered. Some people don't even realize they are reinforcing systemic racism when they do that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 30, 2020, 05:58:20 PM
The president of the Rhode Island School of Design is predicting a $50 million deficit from losses in spring 2020 through the end of fiscal year 2021.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 01, 2020, 02:38:49 AM
Quote from: spork on June 30, 2020, 05:58:20 PM
The president of the Rhode Island School of Design is predicting a $50 million deficit from losses in spring 2020 through the end of fiscal year 2021.

Here is the news story about RISD; forgot to include it earlier:

https://www.providencejournal.com/news/20200629/risd-facing-50-million-deficit-to-lay-off-full-time-faculty (https://www.providencejournal.com/news/20200629/risd-facing-50-million-deficit-to-lay-off-full-time-faculty).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 01, 2020, 05:53:21 AM
Quote from: spork on July 01, 2020, 02:38:49 AM
Quote from: spork on June 30, 2020, 05:58:20 PM
The president of the Rhode Island School of Design is predicting a $50 million deficit from losses in spring 2020 through the end of fiscal year 2021.

Here is the news story about RISD; forgot to include it earlier:

https://www.providencejournal.com/news/20200629/risd-facing-50-million-deficit-to-lay-off-full-time-faculty (https://www.providencejournal.com/news/20200629/risd-facing-50-million-deficit-to-lay-off-full-time-faculty).

The union rejected plans so now there will be layoffs of full-time faculty.  That reads like faculty didn't want to accept realty and now will be smacked in the face.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 01, 2020, 07:47:18 AM
Quote from: Hibush on June 30, 2020, 03:03:08 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 30, 2020, 11:20:41 AM
He also set a number of majors that every program had to have each year (based on the goal of ensuring 60% of Illinois adults earned a college degree), regardless of size or status as a discovery major. The result was the elimination of philosophy, religious studies, women's studies, and Afrian American studies ...although some of these programs did manage to grow to meet the required numbers once the targets were set.

A bit OT, but this looks like a nice case of using a supposedly unbiased algorithm to disempower the underempowered. Some people don't even realize they are reinforcing systemic racism when they do that.

Or, to put it another way, algorithms might be impartial, but deciding how to weight what in creating the algorithm involves making value judgements.  What values are driving the judgement?  In this case, presumably issues of dollars and cents.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 01, 2020, 09:05:27 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 01, 2020, 05:53:21 AM
Quote from: spork on July 01, 2020, 02:38:49 AM
Quote from: spork on June 30, 2020, 05:58:20 PM
The president of the Rhode Island School of Design is predicting a $50 million deficit from losses in spring 2020 through the end of fiscal year 2021.

Here is the news story about RISD; forgot to include it earlier:

https://www.providencejournal.com/news/20200629/risd-facing-50-million-deficit-to-lay-off-full-time-faculty (https://www.providencejournal.com/news/20200629/risd-facing-50-million-deficit-to-lay-off-full-time-faculty).

The union rejected plans so now there will be layoffs of full-time faculty.  That reads like faculty didn't want to accept realty and now will be smacked in the face.

Our union is snarling about "a vote to strike." 

On the one hand, our admin are being wankers.  They seem to be trying to take advantage of the pandemic tragedy.  Very unethical.

On the other hand, the union seems unable to comprehend current events.  Some of the faculty, including some "term faculty," are already rushing to the battlements. 

It is very frightening. We have a little bit of savings, but neither of us particularly wants to move in with our elderly parents.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 01, 2020, 09:27:25 AM
That's a tough situation, Wahoo.

Has anyone looked up all the NLRB rules and contacted the national association for a reality check on local conditions?

It is simultaneously possible for the admins to generally be wankers and still be faced with a very stark budget with valid-to-keeping-the-whole-institution-open constraints that fall more heavily on certain faculty groups.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on July 01, 2020, 10:43:12 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 01, 2020, 05:53:21 AM
Quote from: spork on July 01, 2020, 02:38:49 AM
Quote from: spork on June 30, 2020, 05:58:20 PM
The president of the Rhode Island School of Design is predicting a $50 million deficit from losses in spring 2020 through the end of fiscal year 2021.

Here is the news story about RISD; forgot to include it earlier:

https://www.providencejournal.com/news/20200629/risd-facing-50-million-deficit-to-lay-off-full-time-faculty (https://www.providencejournal.com/news/20200629/risd-facing-50-million-deficit-to-lay-off-full-time-faculty).

The union rejected plans so now there will be layoffs of full-time faculty.  That reads like faculty didn't want to accept realty and now will be smacked in the face.

Perhaps the union did not accept reality and was, indeed smacked in the face.

Or, just as likely, members heard of all these "temporary" cuts, layoffs, furloughs, decreased pension contributions etc. and said "If we say yes to this, we're not ever getting any of it back.  So screw it, we stand firm and see what happens."

I know, Polly, that you are entirely data driven.  Not everybody is, and the logic of their lives makes as much sense to them, as the numbers do in your life.

My own practice as we face similar decisions at Artem U is, "As long as I got a job, I can live with this."  But I would not fault people who make different decisions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 01, 2020, 10:55:45 AM
That "as long as I have a job" mentality is how people ended up unemployed  and generally unemployable in the tight market in their late-fifties/early-sixties at Super Dinky when the programs were cut.

I understand not wanting furloughs and pay cuts ever, because it's true that sometimes they just get worse until the institution closes.

However, refusing to believe that the numbers really do matter and your institution can really, truly, no-foolin' close, even with assets, is a much less sympathetic case.

An art place at the moment is in dire straits and will need to face the numbers.

Playing chicken with the speeding train by sticking tight less than a mile in front of the engine is a sucker bet, even for those who refuse to do the math.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on July 01, 2020, 11:09:15 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 01, 2020, 10:55:45 AM
That "as long as I have a job" mentality is how people ended up unemployed  and generally unemployable in the tight market in their late-fifties/early-sixties at Super Dinky when the programs were cut.

I understand not wanting furloughs and pay cuts ever, because it's true that sometimes they just get worse until the institution closes.

However, refusing to believe that the numbers really do matter and your institution can really, truly, no-foolin' close, even with assets, is a much less sympathetic case.

An art place at the moment is in dire straits and will need to face the numbers.

Playing chicken with the speeding train by sticking tight less than a mile in front of the engine is a sucker bet, even for those who refuse to do the math.

The belief that the wolf is no foolin, truly-ooly, pasta-fazooli at the door may well be the case.  But it's not as if administrators have always been transparent with the data.  And no doubt some of them will flat out lie as a negotiating tactic. 

Most of us can probably "do the math" but said math is only as good as the numbers all the tall foreheads and deep thinkers in the C-suite see fit to release to us peasants.

As my dear old dad used to say, figures don't lie, but liars can figure.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 01, 2020, 01:36:58 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 01, 2020, 09:27:25 AM
That's a tough situation, Wahoo.

Has anyone looked up all the NLRB rules and contacted the national association for a reality check on local conditions?

It is simultaneously possible for the admins to generally be wankers and still be faced with a very stark budget with valid-to-keeping-the-whole-institution-open constraints that fall more heavily on certain faculty groups.

Indeed.  And to their credit the admin have been making difficult reordering decisions, cutting non-essential positions (some of which are going to hurt), and taking pay cuts themselves----something the faculty simply don't recognize, particularly that admin cut their own salaries.  I considered sending these folks a thank-you email but didn't want to come off as a brown-noser. 

On the other hand (which always seems to be ready with the smack-down), as I've posted before, admin resolutely refuse to bargain on a 1-year contract which the union suggested with concessions.  No one knows what's coming in the future, so a year's stalemate is entirely appropriate.  In other words, sure, we peons are willing to do our share but admin are apparently unwilling to let us catch our breath. 

I have no idea what the union has checked or not.  Part of the problem with having a union, I guess.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 01, 2020, 05:25:35 PM
Yeah, I remember you mentioning the one-year thing before.

As secumdem_artem mentions, one has to know the real numbers to make a judgment on any given case.

However, because of my experiences with faculty who flat out refused to believe even when given the stark reality in the clearest, bluntest terms (oh, people have been crying wolf for two decades, it's probably not that bad this time), I'm more inclined to believe that the next year is looking really bad in the true finances.

There's no way Super Dinky survives the next year.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 01, 2020, 07:35:27 PM
Actually, compared to a great many other schools, our finances are not that bad.  Our enrollment is not that bad either.  We are the cheapest school in the state and one of the larger campuses.  We are paid diddly.  So we're not in danger of sinking quite yet.

I have faith enough in our solid but not dynamic admin to think that they can guide us.

And again, my question is always the same: Why not share the numbers so we comprehend the choices, not just now, which we already know is bad, but for the long term?

I just hope that the union members are not so paranoid that they become hotheads and aggravate our admin. 

I hope our admin will remember that we are the real producers of the university's products.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 02, 2020, 06:23:43 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 01, 2020, 07:35:27 PM

And again, my question is always the same: Why not share the numbers so we comprehend the choices, not just now, which we already know is bad, but for the long term?

As a public institution, much of that information should be publicly available.  Have you consulted a university librarian or the president's office with a request?

Where would a FOIA request be filed to get access to the detailed budget and the strategic plan?

While faculty are important and absolutely necessary, few students with options will attend somewhere with terrible technical and physical infrastructure.  Maintaining enough bandwidth and WiFi coverage has become increasingly expensive.  Deferred maintenance eventually comes due.  CUNY is notorious for serving large numbers of students in dangerously neglected facilities. (https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-the-true-crime-in-higher-education-20190402-xqdv2v22irao7c7pvatutyelke-story.html)

Many states were already low on contributing dollars per student or other budget contributions.  Having the same number of students, but another cut this year in state funding while having additional expenses is a big problem for many institutions this year.



Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 01, 2020, 07:35:27 PM
I hope our admin will remember that we are the real producers of the university's products.

Who is included in "we"?  For example, the faculty teaching general education are unlikely to be a big driving factor for enrollment, especially at a large R2.

How much of your enrollment is foreign nationals in engineering and CS?  There are many non-elite places that propped up their enrollment in recent years with those full-pay students.  Having a drop there, but a gain from other regional institutions may mean enrollment is about the same.  However, replacing full-pay-out-of-state students with in-state-additional-discounts is a hit to the budget.

How much faculty turnover or just empty faculty slots exist in the fields that do drive enrollment?  CS immediately comes to mind as having a national mismatch.

. About a third of 4-year institutions reported a failed CS search in 2018.
(https://cra.org/crn/2018/08/2018-computer-science-tenure-track-faculty-hiring-outcomes/)
The mismatch in CS is exacerbated by lack of teaching interest by qualified people as well as excellent options outside of academia. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/05/09/no-clear-solution-nationwide-shortage-computer-science-professors)

If it turns out your institution can't meet demand in certain majors, then the long-term outlook is not good as students vote with their feet to other institutions.  Having fabulous gen ed faculty will not help.

Some majors are also expensive to operate, but closing the programs is not an option for an institution serving the needs of the region.  For example, nursing needs up-to-date facilities and that's not cheap.  An accredited nursing program has strict and pretty low caps on many courses. Nationally, the number of student slots are too few for either the projected needs or students interested in studying.  This is another area where too few qualified people want to teach and money is only part of the equation.


If you spend most of your time talking with other humanities faculty, then you won't know about these expensive problems that won't be fixed by focusing on preserving humanities faculty jobs.

If your campus is mostly humanities majors, then that's another looming long-term problem for the campus as student demographics shift.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 02, 2020, 10:53:38 AM
Those are good questions, Polly.

We have very few foreign nationals studying at our school, and engineering is not one of the 'hot' majors.  Our biggest majors are criminal justice, nursing, social work and the like, and we have a healthy business school.  The majors are fairly evenly distributed after that.  We have almost no out-of-staters either even though we are 20 miles from the state border; we are almost exclusively a city-and-bedroom-community commuter school.  We have healthy humanities majors but we are a school that caters to "practical" students who are career-focused and not overly intellectual.

We are the cheapest school in the state and of average size for an R2/Div-1A school.  Employees are paid diddly partly because our CoL is so low----we are situated in a slum region.

We are, however, at the end of a successful capital campaign and a $10M government bailout.

Most of our financial and enrollment info is online and has been covered in the newspapers.  We are in fairly good shape comparatively despite our projected deficit, and some brutal cuts and reorderings have already been made.

I understand your argument that faculty don't really understand how the university works and if we should have questions we should pursue the answers ourselves like this...

Quote from: polly_mer on July 02, 2020, 06:23:43 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 01, 2020, 07:35:27 PM

And again, my question is always the same: Why not share the numbers so we comprehend the choices, not just now, which we already know is bad, but for the long term?

As a public institution, much of that information should be publicly available.  Have you consulted a university librarian or the president's office with a request?


...but why should I?

Isn't it the administrations' job to explain to their workers why they make the decisions they do?

If the decisions our BoT, President, and Provost make are reasonable and necessary, why shouldn't they be transparent? 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 02, 2020, 11:07:36 AM
Sort of posted this in another thread already, but the basic news: University of Bridgeport is shutting down. Supposedly there will be a teach out for current students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on July 02, 2020, 11:12:27 AM
Quote from: spork on July 02, 2020, 11:07:36 AM
Sort of posted this in another thread already, but the basic news: University of Bridgeport is shutting down. Supposedly there will be a teach out for current students.

Too bad; I knew some folks who taught there at various points.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on July 02, 2020, 11:24:14 AM
Generally when you make a request for public university budget specifics, one or more of the following happens:

-- you are told the hefty charge (up to hundreds of dollars) for preparing the documents
-- it takes 4-6 months to get the documents, after you pay the hefty charge
-- the documents refer to budgets one or two years previous

Ongoing budget decisions are never handed down with the actual numbers of all the components and options, in my experience. Whether they "should" be or not, they are not.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on July 02, 2020, 12:05:16 PM
Quote from: spork on July 02, 2020, 11:07:36 AM
Sort of posted this in another thread already, but the basic news: University of Bridgeport is shutting down. Supposedly there will be a teach out for current students.

Here's the article. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/02/university-bridgeport-be-acquired-three-nearby-colleges
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on July 02, 2020, 12:24:42 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on July 02, 2020, 12:05:16 PM
Quote from: spork on July 02, 2020, 11:07:36 AM
Sort of posted this in another thread already, but the basic news: University of Bridgeport is shutting down. Supposedly there will be a teach out for current students.

Here's the article. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/02/university-bridgeport-be-acquired-three-nearby-colleges

Guess it's just as well their merger with Marlboro fell through.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on July 02, 2020, 12:50:47 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 02, 2020, 12:24:42 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on July 02, 2020, 12:05:16 PM
Quote from: spork on July 02, 2020, 11:07:36 AM
Sort of posted this in another thread already, but the basic news: University of Bridgeport is shutting down. Supposedly there will be a teach out for current students.

Here's the article. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/02/university-bridgeport-be-acquired-three-nearby-colleges

Guess it's just as well their merger with Marlboro fell through.

True, otherwise we might have to make a companion thread to "Students Going From Closing Institution to Closing Institution" for "Institutions Going From Closing Institution to Closing Institution."

I jest, but I'm also not convinced it won't happen either.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on July 02, 2020, 12:53:33 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on July 02, 2020, 12:50:47 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 02, 2020, 12:24:42 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on July 02, 2020, 12:05:16 PM
Quote from: spork on July 02, 2020, 11:07:36 AM
Sort of posted this in another thread already, but the basic news: University of Bridgeport is shutting down. Supposedly there will be a teach out for current students.

Here's the article. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/02/university-bridgeport-be-acquired-three-nearby-colleges

Guess it's just as well their merger with Marlboro fell through.

True, otherwise we might have to make a companion thread to "Students Going From Closing Institution to Closing Institution" for "Institutions Going From Closing Institution to Closing Institution."

I jest, but I'm also not convinced it won't happen either.

Eep. No kidding! I hadn't thought of it that way.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 03, 2020, 05:07:43 PM
CUNY union sues over 2800 adjuncts being laid off. (https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/ny-cuny-union-sues-over-adjunct-layoffs-20200702-fvhvha6n5rdenbcb35s464wgza-story.html)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 03, 2020, 06:21:35 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 03, 2020, 05:07:43 PM
CUNY union sues over 2800 adjuncts being laid off. (https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/ny-cuny-union-sues-over-adjunct-layoffs-20200702-fvhvha6n5rdenbcb35s464wgza-story.html)

Yet another example of a terrible dysfunctional, deteriorating system and its abysmally terrible hiring policies.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on July 05, 2020, 04:31:26 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 03, 2020, 06:21:35 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 03, 2020, 05:07:43 PM
CUNY union sues over 2800 adjuncts being laid off. (https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/ny-cuny-union-sues-over-adjunct-layoffs-20200702-fvhvha6n5rdenbcb35s464wgza-story.html)

Yet another example of a terrible dysfunctional, deteriorating system and its abysmally terrible hiring policies.

Maybe so, but still if you are looking for adjunct work in NYC, working at a CUNY school is often an attractive option compared to alternatives. I am wondering how CUNY is planning to staff its courses since it is heavily dependent on adjunct workers. It would presumably cost more to pay the FT faculty to teach overload than it would to hire adjuncts. Are they also cutting courses or increasing class sizes? I haven't checked recently but I expect nearly all teaching will be online at CUNY schools this fall. A lot of their faculty are not well prepared to teach online at all, according to someone I know who has been trying to train them.

I assume that while CUNY's financial situation is indeed dire, they are not considering closing down any schools. Or are they?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 05, 2020, 06:16:03 AM
CUNY was canceling/consolidating sections last fall due to financial problems.  The union vote in the fall was very contentious with a countercampaign of $7k or strike. (https://www.labornotes.org/blogs/2019/11/viewpoint-vote-no-psc-cuny-contract-7k-or-strike)

For years, institutional members of the CUNY system were national poster children for what happens when deferred maintenance becomes dire. (https://mywbcr.com/cuny-underfunded-brooklyn/)

Anyone who is surprised by cuts at CUNY at this point hasn't been paying attention or believes that wishing is more important than numbers.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on July 05, 2020, 06:30:53 AM
There's no recent updates on the CUNY page https://www.cuny.edu/coronavirus/guidance-on-academic-continuity-to-campuses/

They still haven't made an official announcement about their fall plans, though it seems obvious it will be nearly all distance learning.

So I guess they still haven't made their plans. The website announces proudly that 550 faculty are taking their Online Teaching Essentials course, but they have 6700 faculty, so it is a drop in the bucket.

Are they really not employing any adjuncts? They normally employ 10,000 though maybe not all at the same time. Basically, they won't be able to operate without adjuncts. Presumably demand for courses is increased with the massive unemployment rates in NYC.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 05, 2020, 08:31:39 AM
CUNY cut 25% of their adjuncts on 30 June and were already in November planning for larger sections.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on July 06, 2020, 12:42:25 PM
More from CUNY:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/07/04/cuny-j04.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on July 06, 2020, 12:52:26 PM
Quote from: downer on July 06, 2020, 12:42:25 PM
More from CUNY:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/07/04/cuny-j04.html

Towards the end there is this:

To carry forward the struggle against the layoffs and education cuts at CUNY, workers and students must unequivocally assert their own class interests. As a starting point, they must demand:

    An immediate reversal of all cuts and layoffs. The trillions mobilized for Wall Street must be seized and redirected to support the needs of workers and students.

    The abolition of tuition and cancellation of all student loan debt. Education is a fundamental right that must be provided, free of charge, to the entire working class.

    Safe working and learning conditions. There must be no reopening of campuses until it is deemed safe by committees of workers and students, in consultation with medical experts.

Points 1 and 2 have no leverage nor feasibility. You can demand the sky all you want, but this isn't realistic, at least not in the short term and at least not confined to CUNY. Or is the point not to be realistic?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 06, 2020, 08:42:09 PM
Those are the same demands from last summer and indeed for the past several years.  The realities of competing interests, competing priorities, and limited resources for the whole city/state have never played a role in formulating the demands.

As recently as January, activists were outspoken against the union for caving to reality on the contract accepted in November.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on July 06, 2020, 09:17:40 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on July 06, 2020, 12:52:26 PM
Quote from: downer on July 06, 2020, 12:42:25 PM
More from CUNY:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/07/04/cuny-j04.html

Towards the end there is this:

To carry forward the struggle against the layoffs and education cuts at CUNY, workers and students must unequivocally assert their own class interests. As a starting point, they must demand:

    An immediate reversal of all cuts and layoffs. The trillions mobilized for Wall Street must be seized and redirected to support the needs of workers and students.

    The abolition of tuition and cancellation of all student loan debt. Education is a fundamental right that must be provided, free of charge, to the entire working class.

    Safe working and learning conditions. There must be no reopening of campuses until it is deemed safe by committees of workers and students, in consultation with medical experts.

Points 1 and 2 have no leverage nor feasibility. You can demand the sky all you want, but this isn't realistic, at least not in the short term and at least not confined to CUNY. Or is the point not to be realistic?

Oh, sillies: This was on the World Socialist Website, so one cannot expect anything else. More to the point, this is New York City! :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 10, 2020, 08:00:42 AM
Colleges that plan to open their residential halls in the fall are now inserting fine-print clauses to the effect that if they have to shut down again for COVID-19 students can expect no refunds of dorm fees and meal plans:


https://www.chronicle.com/article/Next-Candidate-for-the-Fall/249155?cid=wsinglestory_6_1a

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on July 10, 2020, 08:07:32 AM
Quote from: apl68 on July 10, 2020, 08:00:42 AM
Colleges that plan to open their residential halls in the fall are now inserting fine-print clauses to the effect that if they have to shut down again for COVID-19 students can expect no refunds of dorm fees and meal plans:


https://www.chronicle.com/article/Next-Candidate-for-the-Fall/249155?cid=wsinglestory_6_1a

That certainly incentivizes institutions throwing open the doors and not worrying about the consequences, since any consequences will be on students, faculty, etc. but NOT on the institution's own finances.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: saffie on July 10, 2020, 01:41:51 PM
Quote from: downer on July 05, 2020, 06:30:53 AM
There's no recent updates on the CUNY page https://www.cuny.edu/coronavirus/guidance-on-academic-continuity-to-campuses/

They still haven't made an official announcement about their fall plans, though it seems obvious it will be nearly all distance learning.

So I guess they still haven't made their plans. The website announces proudly that 550 faculty are taking their Online Teaching Essentials course, but they have 6700 faculty, so it is a drop in the bucket.

Are they really not employing any adjuncts? They normally employ 10,000 though maybe not all at the same time. Basically, they won't be able to operate without adjuncts. Presumably demand for courses is increased with the massive unemployment rates in NYC.

Update today for Fall 2020 is to be mostly online with some possible exceptions for science labs, art/theater courses, etc.: https://www.cuny.edu/coronavirus/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 10, 2020, 01:43:16 PM
Remember the discussion about Wesley College a few months ago and whether $3M was a good investment by the state of Delaware in a private institution?


Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 15, 2019, 06:47:27 PM
I've been thinking about Wesley from a slightly different perspective, perhaps because of the economically stressed area I currently live in.

Certainly Wesley as an institution has a lot of room for improvement.  No argument. 

However, if the college closes it removes approximately 500 total jobs (both FT and PT, including positions at the Aramark co. which provides the food service) from Dover.  In a city of 136K, that is not a death-blow by any means...and the administrative and blue-collar workers will probably find other jobs in this economy----but still, these are incomes and tax dollars suddenly removed from a mid-sized city which would otherwise contribute to the micro-economy in the region. 

The accountants, admin assistants, grounds crew, drivers, carpenters, counselors, janitors etc. who find new employment (presumably in Dover or vicinity) will be taking jobs that someone else would get if the college remained open.  Micro-drops in the employment and economic buckets, of course, unless you are someone who needs a job just given to a former Wesley employee.

Most of the FT faculty will probably relocate somewhere somehow, although not all; one can only conjecture what will happen to the PT faculty. 

For some faculty this closure will also close their careers.  Our attitudes toward our fellow academics tend to follow the vernacular and we often lack any sort of sympathy for each other (I can't think of any industry outside, say, Hollywood which is so unsupported by its own members), and yet I, at least, feel sorry for the handful of trained specialists who may find an extremely difficult transition to gainful employment with their academic backgrounds.

I suspect most of the 15K students will find other schools----although for some this will mean the end of their education for whatever reason.  Not a big deal, really, unless you own an apartment house, bar, pizza or burger joint, supermarket, movie house, etc. in the Wesley region----no bankruptcies perhaps, but you cannot remove 500 jobs and 1,500 students without some economic impact.

And, while I doubt anyone will lose the Nobel Prize if Wesley closes (although they might, who knows?), we all know that modern research is the result of scholars across the world contributing incrementally to the knowledge base----and even if the same discovery will be made somewhere else down the road, that is somewhere else which is not performing yet more incremental research which would have been contributed at Wesley earlier in the process.

Alright, maybe all this is no match for $3M expenditure (which would be a flat refund of around $3.10 for every citizen of Delaware) but these do bear thinking about.  At least I thought so.

Wesley is in the process of being acquired by Delaware State.  Delaware State is taking Wesley's students, but it's not clear what happens to Wesley's employees. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/10/delaware-state-university-will-acquire-wesley-college-first-hbcus)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 10, 2020, 01:48:06 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 15, 2020, 06:24:51 PM
Quote from: spork on May 15, 2020, 09:04:54 AM
Discussion about the fate of Wells College: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/15/wells-college-exemplifies-which-institutions-stand-lose-most-pandemic (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/15/wells-college-exemplifies-which-institutions-stand-lose-most-pandemic).

What's not mentioned:

Wells was in deficit in 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013, and 2017. As of FY 2018, its FTE undergraduate enrollment was only 450 students. And it sits within about an hour's drive of Rochester, Syracuse, Ithaca, SUNY-Cortland, and SUNY-Oswego, in an area that has suffered economic and probably population decline because of de-industrialization.

President Gilbralter offers more candid insight in a podcast  (https://anchor.fm/the-debrief-podcast/embed/episodes/98-How-Wells-College-Could-Close-Forever-ee2p22)with a local reporter. It provides some good insight into the thinking that is going on behind the scenes at other places.

Wells College did raise enough money to be open for fall: https://auburnpub.com/news/local/wells-college-trustees-approve-plan-to-operate-in-fall/article_27350d6f-e2b0-5145-ae87-e111a5382759.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 10, 2020, 02:37:13 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 10, 2020, 01:48:06 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 15, 2020, 06:24:51 PM
Quote from: spork on May 15, 2020, 09:04:54 AM
Discussion about the fate of Wells College: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/15/wells-college-exemplifies-which-institutions-stand-lose-most-pandemic (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/15/wells-college-exemplifies-which-institutions-stand-lose-most-pandemic).

What's not mentioned:

Wells was in deficit in 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013, and 2017. As of FY 2018, its FTE undergraduate enrollment was only 450 students. And it sits within about an hour's drive of Rochester, Syracuse, Ithaca, SUNY-Cortland, and SUNY-Oswego, in an area that has suffered economic and probably population decline because of de-industrialization.

President Gilbralter offers more candid insight in a podcast  (https://anchor.fm/the-debrief-podcast/embed/episodes/98-How-Wells-College-Could-Close-Forever-ee2p22)with a local reporter. It provides some good insight into the thinking that is going on behind the scenes at other places.

Wells College did raise enough money to be open for fall: https://auburnpub.com/news/local/wells-college-trustees-approve-plan-to-operate-in-fall/article_27350d6f-e2b0-5145-ae87-e111a5382759.html

Rock on Wells!!!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 10, 2020, 03:16:23 PM
Wells raised a little more than half of the money they expected to need to fill anticipated gaps for a really tight year.

This is less a "rock on!" joyful moment and more a "responsible grownups would be starting a graceful wrap up" moment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Golazo on July 10, 2020, 03:29:38 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 10, 2020, 08:00:42 AM
Colleges that plan to open their residential halls in the fall are now inserting fine-print clauses to the effect that if they have to shut down again for COVID-19 students can expect no refunds of dorm fees and meal plans:


https://www.chronicle.com/article/Next-Candidate-for-the-Fall/249155?cid=wsinglestory_6_1a

Depending on the state this (at least the dorm part) is likely illegal under housing law and will probably subject colleges to costly litigation and terrible press.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 10, 2020, 05:50:37 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 10, 2020, 03:16:23 PM
Wells raised a little more than half of the money they expected to need to fill anticipated gaps for a really tight year.

This is less a "rock on!" joyful moment and more a "responsible grownups would be starting a graceful wrap up" moment.

Rock on Wells!!!

Do not go gentle into that good night!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on July 11, 2020, 12:00:31 PM

Just in case anyone is interested in buying Green Mountain College's campus.

http://www.maltzauctions.com/auction/363014/155-acre-college-campus/

"Potential Alternative Uses Include Religious Compound, Assisted Living, Housing, Summer Camp, Addiction Retreat and Many Others"
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 11, 2020, 02:21:14 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on July 11, 2020, 12:00:31 PM

Just in case anyone is interested in buying Green Mountain College's campus.

http://www.maltzauctions.com/auction/363014/155-acre-college-campus/

"Potential Alternative Uses Include Religious Compound, Assisted Living, Housing, Summer Camp, Addiction Retreat and Many Others"
If you are feeling snoopy, they have a document with detailed financial and condition information, but you have to sign an NDA to see it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on July 11, 2020, 02:30:14 PM
Quote from: Hibush on July 11, 2020, 02:21:14 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on July 11, 2020, 12:00:31 PM

Just in case anyone is interested in buying Green Mountain College's campus.

http://www.maltzauctions.com/auction/363014/155-acre-college-campus/

"Potential Alternative Uses Include Religious Compound, Assisted Living, Housing, Summer Camp, Addiction Retreat and Many Others"
If you are feeling snoopy, they have a document with detailed financial and condition information, but you have to sign an NDA to see it.

Maybe those on the Fora can chip in to get at least the $3M minimum bid together! :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 11, 2020, 03:00:35 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 11, 2020, 02:30:14 PM
Quote from: Hibush on July 11, 2020, 02:21:14 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on July 11, 2020, 12:00:31 PM

Just in case anyone is interested in buying Green Mountain College's campus.

http://www.maltzauctions.com/auction/363014/155-acre-college-campus/

"Potential Alternative Uses Include Religious Compound, Assisted Living, Housing, Summer Camp, Addiction Retreat and Many Others"
If you are feeling snoopy, they have a document with detailed financial and condition information, but you have to sign an NDA to see it.

Maybe those on the Fora can chip in to get at least the $3M minimum bid together! :-)

I'm in for $5.  Do I get to choose my office?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 13, 2020, 06:26:35 AM
Quote from: Hibush on June 03, 2020, 03:11:07 PM
Quote from: waterboy on June 03, 2020, 11:54:40 AM
Quotefrankly the thing is waning for sure all over
Not sure about that - check the southern states, and MA.

The rural Northeast did a good job isolating, so there has been low pressure. That created fertile ground for denialists, who are abundant in Western PA where Allegheny is located. I expect reckless behavior to set in soon. This area might look like Mississippi by the time the Fall semester is supposed to start.

Allegheny County (Pittsburgh) is already one of Pennyslvania's new hotspots, tripling its caseload from two weeks age and leading the charge into an ugly fall for school reopening. 

Which brings us back to the perennial topic of the oversupply of public colleges in depopulating Western PA.

Erie County has decided that they don't have enough colleges and will open a new community college, charging IHE story (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/07/10/pennsylvania-county-gets-community-college)

The boosters are not looking to compete with LACs in educational vision. "We envision a world-class workforce development center that will serve as an economic engine to provide socio-economic mobility and equity for everyone in our community."

They may compete economically with the pricy PASSHE public colleges, though. The annual tuition is targeted at $2,400. Edinboro seems most at risk; they also offer AAs. Northern PA Regional College thought they were the CC serving Erie County, so it's leaders are puzzled/miffed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 14, 2020, 05:07:39 PM
Colorado higher ed facing a tough year, particularly the already underfunded institutions, as Colorado faces a budget shortfall of $3.3B (https://www.denverpost.com/2020/07/05/higher-education-budget-cuts-colorado-coronavirus-recession/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on July 14, 2020, 06:12:33 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 14, 2020, 05:07:39 PM
Colorado higher ed facing a tough year, particularly the already underfunded institutions, as Colorado faces a budget shortfall of $3.3B (https://www.denverpost.com/2020/07/05/higher-education-budget-cuts-colorado-coronavirus-recession/)

Yes, it is bad-- I did my PhD there and still have many colleagues there. They are starting from an already low bar, with one of the lowest state contributions to higher ed (CU Boulder gets <5% of revenue from the state).

One of the problems in CO is that it is way too easy to amend the state constitution by ballot initiative, so over the decades nearly all of the state budget has been set aside for restricted purposes-- most of these are fine in and of themselves (K-12, roads, etc.), but collectively it leaves the state government almost no room to adapt to changing needs. On top of that, the people in their infinite wisdom way back in 1992 based a "tax payers bill of rights" which significantly restricts the ability to raise revenue and save for a rainy day. It didn't matter so much for a long time because the economy was booming with lots of new tech jobs and tourism, so efforts to repeal it never quite made it. But now the monsoon has come and they don't have many tools to address it. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 15, 2020, 07:48:02 AM
Our state just restored some recent cuts to higher education.  It turns out they didn't lose as much revenue as anticipated due to the pandemic, so they had some left to put back in.  At least schools like HSU that were already having problems aren't about to be worse off.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 15, 2020, 09:22:33 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 14, 2020, 06:12:33 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 14, 2020, 05:07:39 PM
Colorado higher ed facing a tough year, particularly the already underfunded institutions, as Colorado faces a budget shortfall of $3.3B (https://www.denverpost.com/2020/07/05/higher-education-budget-cuts-colorado-coronavirus-recession/)

Yes, it is bad-- I did my PhD there and still have many colleagues there. They are starting from an already low bar, with one of the lowest state contributions to higher ed (CU Boulder gets <5% of revenue from the state).

One of the problems in CO is that it is way too easy to amend the state constitution by ballot initiative, so over the decades nearly all of the state budget has been set aside for restricted purposes-- most of these are fine in and of themselves (K-12, roads, etc.), but collectively it leaves the state government almost no room to adapt to changing needs. On top of that, the people in their infinite wisdom way back in 1992 based a "tax payers bill of rights" which significantly restricts the ability to raise revenue and save for a rainy day. It didn't matter so much for a long time because the economy was booming with lots of new tech jobs and tourism, so efforts to repeal it never quite made it. But now the monsoon has come and they don't have many tools to address it.

I continue to be amused and frustrated as I follow the national news.  For example, the typical annual budget for CU is about half the budget for our entire state.  Yet Colorado is listed as underfunding education and my state (on a per-student basis) is above average.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 15, 2020, 04:26:46 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 15, 2020, 09:22:33 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 14, 2020, 06:12:33 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 14, 2020, 05:07:39 PM
Colorado higher ed facing a tough year, particularly the already underfunded institutions, as Colorado faces a budget shortfall of $3.3B (https://www.denverpost.com/2020/07/05/higher-education-budget-cuts-colorado-coronavirus-recession/)

Yes, it is bad-- I did my PhD there and still have many colleagues there. They are starting from an already low bar, with one of the lowest state contributions to higher ed (CU Boulder gets <5% of revenue from the state).

One of the problems in CO is that it is way too easy to amend the state constitution by ballot initiative, so over the decades nearly all of the state budget has been set aside for restricted purposes-- most of these are fine in and of themselves (K-12, roads, etc.), but collectively it leaves the state government almost no room to adapt to changing needs. On top of that, the people in their infinite wisdom way back in 1992 based a "tax payers bill of rights" which significantly restricts the ability to raise revenue and save for a rainy day. It didn't matter so much for a long time because the economy was booming with lots of new tech jobs and tourism, so efforts to repeal it never quite made it. But now the monsoon has come and they don't have many tools to address it.

I continue to be amused and frustrated as I follow the national news.  For example, the typical annual budget for CU is about half the budget for our entire state.  Yet Colorado is listed as underfunding education and my state (on a per-student basis) is above average.

Could you explain that a little more, Polly?  I'm not sure I followed. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on July 15, 2020, 06:45:09 PM
For K-12 Colorado is at around 40th per pupil of the 50 + DC. K-12 is definitely underfunded. That is what I see mentioned most for underfunding.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on July 15, 2020, 06:49:20 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 15, 2020, 06:45:09 PM
For K-12 Colorado is at around 40th per pupil of the 50 + DC. K-12 is definitely underfunded. That is what I see mentioned most for underfunding.

For higher ed Colorado is sixth from the bottom for 50 + DC + PR.

https://ncses.nsf.gov/indicators/states/indicator/state-support-for-higher-education-per-fte-student/table
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 16, 2020, 02:57:46 AM
University of Akron trustees vote to eliminate 97 full-time faculty positions (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/16/bloodbath-university-akron). Must. Subsidize. NCAA Division I. Athletics.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 16, 2020, 05:31:19 AM
The CU system is listed as having an annual budget of $4.8B under normal conditions.

That is more than half the amount that our state is discussing as the total budget (I.e., everything the state funds, not just higher ed) for the whole year.  Per Wikipedia, that's more than the budget for the entire state of Delaware; 13 states are listed as having total budgets of $10B or less. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_budgets)

Education gets listed as underfunded, but there's too much need for many things and too little money to go around.

I live in an affluent community in a poor state whose main funding sources took a big hit in the past few months.  I don't have a lot of sympathy for the higher ed systems that are facing minor-percentagewise cuts that are dollar amounts bigger than our whole budget for social service line items.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on July 16, 2020, 06:07:15 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 16, 2020, 05:31:19 AM
The CU system is listed as having an annual budget of $4.8B under normal conditions.

That is more than half the amount that our state is discussing as the total budget (I.e., everything the state funds, not just higher ed) for the whole year.  Per Wikipedia, that's more than the budget for the entire state of Delaware; 13 states are listed as having total budgets of $10B or less. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_budgets)

Education gets listed as underfunded, but there's too much need for many things and too little money to go around.

I live in an affluent community in a poor state whose main funding sources took a big hit in the past few months.  I don't have a lot of sympathy for the higher ed systems that are facing minor-percentagewise cuts that are dollar amounts bigger than our whole budget for social service line items.

I simply don't get your comparisons (I guess a better way to say that is they are specious). That is why I gave PPS figures.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 16, 2020, 06:42:19 AM
My point goes to the continuing discussion that blanket calls more money for higher ed education tends to ignore the realities of having many priorities and limited money.

CU is not hurting for money in an absolute sense nor are any of their competitors.  They will weather this just fine and college education will continue to exist in the US.

However, many states cannot afford to be propping up every tiny little higher ed institution that currently exists because the states have too little money.  The discrepancies between various entities means step one is to look at the overall dollar amount available and step two is then to prioritize.

Starting from 'we have to keep X essentially the same' doesn't work.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on July 16, 2020, 06:48:48 AM
More from Akron: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/16/budget-bloodbath-university-akron
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on July 16, 2020, 06:55:46 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 16, 2020, 06:48:48 AM
More from Akron: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/16/budget-bloodbath-university-akron

The union says names were selected regardless of rank or tenure status.

I didn't see the word "financial exigency" used in the article. How are they able to pick and choose faculty at random, even those with tenure status, if they aren't eliminating entire programs (which they already did)?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 16, 2020, 07:10:40 AM
Because the board of governors decided a few years ago that investment in D1 sports was the path to follow to the promised land.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 16, 2020, 07:38:53 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 16, 2020, 06:48:48 AM
More from Akron: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/16/budget-bloodbath-university-akron

Blowing over $200 million on athletic programs even as academics are gutted ought to be a scandal. 

On the other hand, it's hard to argue (per polly's point above) when enrollment has fallen by over a third that faculty can expect not to see their ranks thinned accordingly.

They're probably right when they say that saving the big money by cutting football and other big sports programs will cost them in terms of enrollment.  If administration's priorities seem out of whack, it's often because they're responding to out-of-whack priorities in the environment and culture that they have to work in.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on July 16, 2020, 07:49:37 AM
That defines the OSU-inflicted state "SportsRUs" model to a T.

It works in Columbus because of size, centrality, and a huge biochem/agronomic/medical-research machine behind the scenes.

But elsewhere the critical mass just isn't there to let sports appear to be "king" at the expense of other things.

There's too much of a "Buckeye-wannabe" mindset for the outrigger state schools to see truth.

(Transparecy: I was raised in OH and did my BA at OSU; I get back often because I still give papers with a couple of regional research groups, use the libraries, etc., as well as visiting my folks, and friends, when that was possible.)

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on July 16, 2020, 08:17:08 AM
Here's a list of universities in Ohio. You can click on the city to see where they are located. Not hard to see why there are too many publics in Northern Ohio, not to even mention the tuition exchanges with some PA institutions to explain the enrollment drops. Without even trying I could name Toledo, Kent, Akron, Youngstown State, Cleveland State, Payne State and Malone competing for the same students.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_Ohio

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 16, 2020, 09:14:29 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 16, 2020, 08:17:08 AM
Here's a list of universities in Ohio. You can click on the city to see where they are located. Not hard to see why there are too many publics in Northern Ohio, not to even mention the tuition exchanges with some PA institutions to explain the enrollment drops. Without even trying I could name Toledo, Kent, Akron, Youngstown State, Cleveland State, Payne State and Malone competing for the same students.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_Ohio

Good grief, they have nearly 100 institutions there!  About one for every 500 square miles or 110,000 people.  And three dozen of them are publics!

It really is hard to see how the state can sustain all of that infrastructure in an era of long-term decline in college-age, college-bound students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 16, 2020, 11:15:35 AM
They can't sustain that infrastructure as population declines.  That's been the looming crisis for years and the time of the greatest decrease in HS graduates is still a couple years out for many areas.

https://knocking.wiche.edu/nation-region-profile has interactive dashboards and links to the data WICHE been collecting for years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on July 16, 2020, 12:31:31 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 16, 2020, 09:14:29 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 16, 2020, 08:17:08 AM
Here's a list of universities in Ohio. You can click on the city to see where they are located. Not hard to see why there are too many publics in Northern Ohio, not to even mention the tuition exchanges with some PA institutions to explain the enrollment drops. Without even trying I could name Toledo, Kent, Akron, Youngstown State, Cleveland State, Payne State and Malone competing for the same students.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_Ohio

Good grief, they have nearly 100 institutions there!  About one for every 500 square miles or 110,000 people.  And three dozen of them are publics!

It really is hard to see how the state can sustain all of that infrastructure in an era of long-term decline in college-age, college-bound students.

Heh. Pennsylvania makes Ohio look like pikers. Spork and others have pointed at them with justification for years.

polly is absolutely right that we've known about the population issue for years. But, IMHO little can be done without widespread consolidation and closings of Publics.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 16, 2020, 12:58:24 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 16, 2020, 12:31:31 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 16, 2020, 09:14:29 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 16, 2020, 08:17:08 AM
Here's a list of universities in Ohio. You can click on the city to see where they are located. Not hard to see why there are too many publics in Northern Ohio, not to even mention the tuition exchanges with some PA institutions to explain the enrollment drops. Without even trying I could name Toledo, Kent, Akron, Youngstown State, Cleveland State, Payne State and Malone competing for the same students.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_Ohio

Good grief, they have nearly 100 institutions there!  About one for every 500 square miles or 110,000 people.  And three dozen of them are publics!

It really is hard to see how the state can sustain all of that infrastructure in an era of long-term decline in college-age, college-bound students.

Heh. Pennsylvania makes Ohio look like pikers. Spork and others have pointed at them with justification for years.

polly is absolutely right that we've known about the population issue for years. But, IMHO little can be done without widespread consolidation and closings of Publics.

Yes, they're surely going to have to thin their herd of public institutions.  Maybe not close campuses entirely, which would be extremely difficult politically, but definitely reduce them in status and funding.  Maybe they can somehow re-purpose some of them to soften the blow to local economies.  If they don't plan for a managed decline, they'll end up with a much messier one.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 16, 2020, 02:20:26 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 16, 2020, 07:38:53 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 16, 2020, 06:48:48 AM
More from Akron: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/16/budget-bloodbath-university-akron

Blowing over $200 million on athletic programs even as academics are gutted ought to be a scandal. 

On the other hand, it's hard to argue (per polly's point above) when enrollment has fallen by over a third that faculty can expect not to see their ranks thinned accordingly.

They're probably right when they say that saving the big money by cutting football and other big sports programs will cost them in terms of enrollment.  If administration's priorities seem out of whack, it's often because they're responding to out-of-whack priorities in the environment and culture that they have to work in.

Maybe they can cut all the majors except kinesiology and sports management and find a stable enrollment level that exactly matches their varsity rosters.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on July 16, 2020, 03:14:05 PM
With all my fussing, I should point out two things;

a) The main state schools, like OSU and its outriggers, are chartered land grant schools and many have agronomy, farm management, and crop breeding programs that are still relevant to the areas where they are found. The experimental corn fields are still (in part) across the road and up the pike from the main OSU stadium/field house/ice rink complex.

So they're not totally irrelevant to the populations they serve, even when those populations decide to return to farm life after taking their degrees. (Or go live in the Phillipines after doing a year in India and publishing his thesis on multiple cropping, as my first boyfriend did...).

b) The programs that focus on the humanities are strong and well-placed: the dance and music programs attract world-class instructors and produce performers who end up in globally-recognized companies and orchestras. We had dancers-in-residence in the 1970s from India, Africa, and the British Isles as well as teaching residencies by Tharp, Fagan, and Cunningham in dance; the art, music, and theater programs had similar input and output....and still do.

So the sports nonsense is hugely irritating but one can put one's fingers in one's ears and skate, dance, play, act, or sing as well as research, write, and teach in many fields.

c) The overstretched-to-meet-a-population-no-longer-there issue is definitely a problem, I'm not downplaying that.

But I wanted to be balanced in discussing the overall program's strengths and weaknesses.

M. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on July 16, 2020, 03:14:30 PM
Quote from: Hibush on July 16, 2020, 02:20:26 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 16, 2020, 07:38:53 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 16, 2020, 06:48:48 AM
More from Akron: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/16/budget-bloodbath-university-akron

Blowing over $200 million on athletic programs even as academics are gutted ought to be a scandal. 

On the other hand, it's hard to argue (per polly's point above) when enrollment has fallen by over a third that faculty can expect not to see their ranks thinned accordingly.

They're probably right when they say that saving the big money by cutting football and other big sports programs will cost them in terms of enrollment.  If administration's priorities seem out of whack, it's often because they're responding to out-of-whack priorities in the environment and culture that they have to work in.

Maybe they can cut all the majors except kinesiology and sports management and find a stable enrollment level that exactly matches their varsity rosters.



I think they are nearly there:

From 2018: U of Akron Cuts 80 Degree Tracks
From May 2020: U of Akron to close 6 of 11 colleges
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 16, 2020, 04:13:57 PM
Quote from: mamselle on July 16, 2020, 03:14:05 PM

b) The programs that focus on the humanities are strong and well-placed: the dance and music programs attract world-class instructors and produce performers who end up in globally-recognized companies and orchestras. We had dancers-in-residence in the 1970s from India, Africa, and the British Isles as well as teaching residencies by Tharp, Fagan, and Cunningham in dance; the art, music, and theater programs had similar input and output....and still do.

Will this still be true when the national competition for enough students in those programs becomes even fiercer?

If there are only N students nationally and J programs nationally, then some programs just won't get enough students when N/J gets to under a number around 50.  Having great faculty at all the programs for an even division of too few students doesn't work, but that's OK because the division nationally will not be even across all programs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 16, 2020, 05:17:42 PM
Budget Cuts Render University of Akron's Football Program Increasingly Indefensible (https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2020/05/01/budget-cuts-render-university-of-akrons-football-program-increasingly-indefensible)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Cheerful on July 16, 2020, 06:08:12 PM
From the IHE, 7/16 article:

Quote"But Miller said Wednesday during a news conference that Akron's main competitor institutions have Division I programs, and that leaving the conference would have enrollment consequences.

LOL!  I know of Division I schools where hardly any students attend the games.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on July 16, 2020, 06:18:36 PM
Piling on...

https://www.beaconjournal.com/news/20191123/bob-dyer-university-of-akron-football-is-invisible (https://www.beaconjournal.com/news/20191123/bob-dyer-university-of-akron-football-is-invisible)

Any place adjusting basic things like the academic work week because of football deserves to go under.

I feel bad for anybody trying to hold down an academic job there.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Cheerful on July 16, 2020, 06:48:13 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on July 16, 2020, 06:18:36 PM
Piling on...

https://www.beaconjournal.com/news/20191123/bob-dyer-university-of-akron-football-is-invisible (https://www.beaconjournal.com/news/20191123/bob-dyer-university-of-akron-football-is-invisible)

Any place adjusting basic things like the academic work week because of football deserves to go under.

I feel bad for anybody trying to hold down an academic job there.

+1  Great article, thanks, dr_codex.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 16, 2020, 07:04:03 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 16, 2020, 04:13:57 PM
Quote from: mamselle on July 16, 2020, 03:14:05 PM

b) The programs that focus on the humanities are strong and well-placed: the dance and music programs attract world-class instructors and produce performers who end up in globally-recognized companies and orchestras. We had dancers-in-residence in the 1970s from India, Africa, and the British Isles as well as teaching residencies by Tharp, Fagan, and Cunningham in dance; the art, music, and theater programs had similar input and output....and still do.

Will this still be true when the national competition for enough students in those programs becomes even fiercer?

If there are only N students nationally and J programs nationally, then some programs just won't get enough students when N/J gets to under a number around 50.  Having great faculty at all the programs for an even division of too few students doesn't work, but that's OK because the division nationally will not be even across all programs.

There is something to be said for prestige.  I suppose it is a matter of how much a college is willing to support a program that is prestigious but loses money.  Interestingly, when I put that into Google, all I get are hits on sports programs losing money.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 16, 2020, 07:57:47 PM
The question is the benefit of the prestige to the whole institution.  As a non-theatre/dance/related person, Akron doesn't even appear on my radar as something worthy of praise in those areas.

However, Akron has a very good polymer engineering program and good related more common STEM programs because of the local industry.  Were I just going on what I currently know about national conditions and could make binding decisions, then I'd pick programs that are prestigious  enough to draw full-pay students from national and international pools as well as bring in excellent research money, even at the undergrad level.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 16, 2020, 08:23:51 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 01, 2020, 10:43:12 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 01, 2020, 05:53:21 AM
Quote from: spork on July 01, 2020, 02:38:49 AM
Quote from: spork on June 30, 2020, 05:58:20 PM
The president of the Rhode Island School of Design is predicting a $50 million deficit from losses in spring 2020 through the end of fiscal year 2021.

Here is the news story about RISD; forgot to include it earlier:

https://www.providencejournal.com/news/20200629/risd-facing-50-million-deficit-to-lay-off-full-time-faculty (https://www.providencejournal.com/news/20200629/risd-facing-50-million-deficit-to-lay-off-full-time-faculty).

The union rejected plans so now there will be layoffs of full-time faculty.  That reads like faculty didn't want to accept reality and now will be smacked in the face.

Perhaps the union did not accept reality and was, indeed smacked in the face.

Or, just as likely, members heard of all these "temporary" cuts, layoffs, furloughs, decreased pension contributions etc. and said "If we say yes to this, we're not ever getting any of it back.  So screw it, we stand firm and see what happens."

I know, Polly, that you are entirely data driven.  Not everybody is, and the logic of their lives makes as much sense to them, as the numbers do in your life.

My own practice as we face similar decisions at Artem U is, "As long as I got a job, I can live with this."  But I would not fault people who make different decisions.

The faculty are now taking cuts including to retirement contributions, so no layoffs for now. (https://www.providencejournal.com/news/20200714/risd-and-its-faculty-reach-agreement-avoid-layoffs)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on July 17, 2020, 05:39:00 AM
Pennsylvania: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/17/pennsylvania-university-system-proposes-plan-redesign
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 17, 2020, 06:39:42 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 17, 2020, 05:39:00 AM
Pennsylvania: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/17/pennsylvania-university-system-proposes-plan-redesign

Reading the assertions is sad and funny.  If there aren't real changes that result in some combination of substantial reduction in faculty/staff, substantial deduplication of everything needed to run a program, and substantial reduction in facilities, then there is no cost savings.

Adding a true partnership for the same program delivered at/from multiple sites costs more than having two separate programs, regardless of whether those programs are academic, athletic, co-curricular, or extra-curricular.

Individual institutions will see change that negatively impacts some humans currently employed/enrolled or there's no shot at actual cost savings.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on July 17, 2020, 06:47:00 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 17, 2020, 06:39:42 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 17, 2020, 05:39:00 AM
Pennsylvania: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/17/pennsylvania-university-system-proposes-plan-redesign

Reading the assertions is sad and funny.  If there aren't real changes that result in some combination of substantial reduction in faculty/staff, substantial deduplication of everything needed to run a program, and substantial reduction in facilities, then there is no cost savings.

Adding a true partnership for the same program delivered at/from multiple sites costs more than having two separate programs, regardless of whether those programs are academic, athletic, co-curricular, or extra-curricular.

Individual institutions will see change that negatively impacts some humans currently employed/enrolled or there's no shot at actual cost savings.

I served on a school board of trustees for two terms. I made that point whenever constituents told us we needed to cut costs. My response was we had already cut as much as we could in peripheral costs (which was never much as a percentage) because the bulk of the money is always in people. Savings=fewer employees. It is a cold hard fact.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 17, 2020, 07:12:25 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 17, 2020, 06:47:00 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 17, 2020, 06:39:42 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 17, 2020, 05:39:00 AM
Pennsylvania: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/17/pennsylvania-university-system-proposes-plan-redesign

Reading the assertions is sad and funny.  If there aren't real changes that result in some combination of substantial reduction in faculty/staff, substantial deduplication of everything needed to run a program, and substantial reduction in facilities, then there is no cost savings.

Adding a true partnership for the same program delivered at/from multiple sites costs more than having two separate programs, regardless of whether those programs are academic, athletic, co-curricular, or extra-curricular.

Individual institutions will see change that negatively impacts some humans currently employed/enrolled or there's no shot at actual cost savings.

I served on a school board of trustees for two terms. I made that point whenever constituents told us we needed to cut costs. My response was we had already cut as much as we could in peripheral costs (which was never much as a percentage) because the bulk of the money is always in people. Savings=fewer employees. It is a cold hard fact.

When the HLC peer review team visited Super Dinky, they asked explicitly about our recent program cuts and how much we saved.  Saving $1800 each for an adjunct or two per term to free up faculty to teach a needed-to-graduate upper-division course of under six students was nothing.

Having one of the relevant faculty members retire so we could replace Dr. Expensive with someone making about half his salary would have saved substantially more money.  Most of those folks were making more than our entire adjunct budget for the year while teaching 7-9 sections over the year.

Having the whole department retire (only three people or fewer in some of those departments) and contracting with the two other institutions within a ten-minute drive for relevant gen ed courses would have given larger selection at lower cost, but the administration wouldn't make deals or go through with layoffs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on July 17, 2020, 07:25:58 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 17, 2020, 06:47:00 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 17, 2020, 06:39:42 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 17, 2020, 05:39:00 AM
Pennsylvania: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/17/pennsylvania-university-system-proposes-plan-redesign

Reading the assertions is sad and funny.  If there aren't real changes that result in some combination of substantial reduction in faculty/staff, substantial deduplication of everything needed to run a program, and substantial reduction in facilities, then there is no cost savings.

Adding a true partnership for the same program delivered at/from multiple sites costs more than having two separate programs, regardless of whether those programs are academic, athletic, co-curricular, or extra-curricular.

Individual institutions will see change that negatively impacts some humans currently employed/enrolled or there's no shot at actual cost savings.

I served on a school board of trustees for two terms. I made that point whenever constituents told us we needed to cut costs. My response was we had already cut as much as we could in peripheral costs (which was never much as a percentage) because the bulk of the money is always in people. Savings=fewer employees. It is a cold hard fact.

The number I recall hearing for our university was that *salaries account for about 80% of the budget. (*I assume that includes benefits, pensions, etc.) So saving on paperclips doesn't really make a whole lot of difference.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 17, 2020, 08:06:29 AM
60-80% of budget being salaries, benefits, and similar is pretty typical with teaching places having a higher percentage and research places having a lower percentage.

Things get really interesting at small enough places that infrastructure and bureaucracy costs don't scale with enrollment so that the full-time CPA with up-to-date software shows up as a noticeable non-instructional expense.

We got to answer a lot of questions at Super Dinky on how we were an undergraduate-only institution with no research and somehow our budget was only about half instructional expenses and directly related support.

Well, five full-time security guards (i.e., one on duty 24/7 to answer mundane calls like unlocking doors and jumpstarting cars while allowing vacation and sick leave) is a substantial fraction of the 25-35 full-time faculty.

Having a business office with a CFO, a full-time CPA, and three clerks to deal with paying the bills and collecting revenue is another five people who aren't teaching.

The three people in the financial aid department and the two people in the registrar's office also aren't teaching, but we can't run the college without someone doing the job.

Another five people in facilities including custodians for cleaning aren't teaching, but we can't run without them.

An IT department of 3-5 aren't teaching, but we can't run as an organization without them

All told faculty were about a quarter of the employees and we didn't have much administration.  One title was along the lines of provost and dean of faculty and overseer of athletics and overseer of co-curricular activities and enforcer of all student academic issues and first responder to parental fires and representative to most community groups.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 17, 2020, 11:30:38 AM
Faculty cuts coming at Illinois Wesleyan:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-illinois-wesleyan-university-liberal-arts-program-cuts-20200716-yo337lghgrdmnpdl4xhfarzqe4-story.html (https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-illinois-wesleyan-university-liberal-arts-program-cuts-20200716-yo337lghgrdmnpdl4xhfarzqe4-story.html).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: quasihumanist on July 17, 2020, 11:31:09 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 17, 2020, 08:06:29 AM
60-80% of budget being salaries, benefits, and similar is pretty typical with teaching places having a higher percentage and research places having a lower percentage.

Things get really interesting at small enough places that infrastructure and bureaucracy costs don't scale with enrollment so that the full-time CPA with up-to-date software shows up as a noticeable non-instructional expense.

We got to answer a lot of questions at Super Dinky on how we were an undergraduate-only institution with no research and somehow our budget was only about half instructional expenses and directly related support.

Well, five full-time security guards (i.e., one on duty 24/7 to answer mundane calls like unlocking doors and jumpstarting cars while allowing vacation and sick leave) is a substantial fraction of the 25-35 full-time faculty.

Having a business office with a CFO, a full-time CPA, and three clerks to deal with paying the bills and collecting revenue is another five people who aren't teaching.

The three people in the financial aid department and the two people in the registrar's office also aren't teaching, but we can't run the college without someone doing the job.

Another five people in facilities including custodians for cleaning aren't teaching, but we can't run without them.

An IT department of 3-5 aren't teaching, but we can't run as an organization without them

All told faculty were about a quarter of the employees and we didn't have much administration.  One title was along the lines of provost and dean of faculty and overseer of athletics and overseer of co-curricular activities and enforcer of all student academic issues and first responder to parental fires and representative to most community groups.

It's worth noting that, when we read about staffing at at most colleges and universities 100 years ago, being part-time security or part-time custodian or part-time groundskeeper or part-time librarian or part-time clerk would have been part of the job duties of faculty.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 17, 2020, 01:51:07 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 17, 2020, 08:06:29 AM
60-80% of budget being salaries, benefits, and similar is pretty typical with teaching places having a higher percentage and research places having a lower percentage.

Things get really interesting at small enough places that infrastructure and bureaucracy costs don't scale with enrollment so that the full-time CPA with up-to-date software shows up as a noticeable non-instructional expense.

We got to answer a lot of questions at Super Dinky on how we were an undergraduate-only institution with no research and somehow our budget was only about half instructional expenses and directly related support.

Well, five full-time security guards (i.e., one on duty 24/7 to answer mundane calls like unlocking doors and jumpstarting cars while allowing vacation and sick leave) is a substantial fraction of the 25-35 full-time faculty.

Having a business office with a CFO, a full-time CPA, and three clerks to deal with paying the bills and collecting revenue is another five people who aren't teaching.

The three people in the financial aid department and the two people in the registrar's office also aren't teaching, but we can't run the college without someone doing the job.

Another five people in facilities including custodians for cleaning aren't teaching, but we can't run without them.

An IT department of 3-5 aren't teaching, but we can't run as an organization without them

All told faculty were about a quarter of the employees and we didn't have much administration.  One title was along the lines of provost and dean of faculty and overseer of athletics and overseer of co-curricular activities and enforcer of all student academic issues and first responder to parental fires and representative to most community groups.

That is a pretty sad teeth-to-tail ratio.  And yet, as you note, they're all necessary (I do wonder about the five security guards.  Alma Mater was nearly three times the size of Super Dinky, and I doubt we had more than two or three full-time guards). 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 17, 2020, 02:25:31 PM
8 h shifts is 3 shifts/day x 7 days/week=21 shifts to cover a week.  A normal workload is five shifts per week for a 40 h workweek.

That's a minimum of four people with a shift left over every week.

It's prudent to plan for vacation, sick, and personal days.  Thus, five people is pretty reasonable to ensure minimum coverage with options on overlaps for briefings, trainings, and meetings.  One of the five is likely a supervisor who does the paperwork and helps fill gaps.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 19, 2020, 02:38:18 AM
U Missouri-Columbia (https://www.asumag.com/facilities-management/business-finance/article/20855513/up-to-400-jobs-to-be-eliminated-at-university-of-missouri-columbia) projecting 18% decline in first-time freshmen and a $24 million loss in tuition revenue and state allocations.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pgher on July 19, 2020, 06:07:58 AM
Quote from: spork on July 19, 2020, 02:38:18 AM
U Missouri-Columbia (https://www.asumag.com/facilities-management/business-finance/article/20855513/up-to-400-jobs-to-be-eliminated-at-university-of-missouri-columbia) projecting 18% decline in first-time freshmen and a $24 million loss in tuition revenue and state allocations.

Look at the date. That was written in 2017 in the aftermath of racial issues.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 19, 2020, 08:43:31 AM
Quote from: pgher on July 19, 2020, 06:07:58 AM
Quote from: spork on July 19, 2020, 02:38:18 AM
U Missouri-Columbia (https://www.asumag.com/facilities-management/business-finance/article/20855513/up-to-400-jobs-to-be-eliminated-at-university-of-missouri-columbia) projecting 18% decline in first-time freshmen and a $24 million loss in tuition revenue and state allocations.

Look at the date. That was written in 2017 in the aftermath of racial issues.

D'oh. You're absolutely right. I had Google search set to 1 week. Some meta tag must have been changed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on July 20, 2020, 11:25:11 AM
Canisius is falling apart.
https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/canisius-college-considering-cuts
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 20, 2020, 12:15:52 PM
Quote from: downer on July 20, 2020, 11:25:11 AM
Canisius is falling apart.
https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/canisius-college-considering-cuts

Budget just barely in the black in FY 2017, deficit of $6.9 million in FY 2018 on an operating budget of $136 million. Undergraduate FTE enrollment fell by 37% from 2006 to 2019.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 20, 2020, 12:51:37 PM
Another religiously-affiliated school preparing to drop its religious studies program, among others.

Alumni have started a Go Fund Me campaign.  It's hard to believe that will make a difference.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 20, 2020, 12:57:49 PM
It had healthy positive net revenue for several years in the post-2008 recession period, often in the double digits. Looks like its leadership suffered from optimism bias year after year.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 20, 2020, 02:59:47 PM
Radford University (public in Virginia) has suspended the faculty handbook and will make targeted faculty cuts including tenured faculty. (https://insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/20/radford-university-budget-plan-removes-job-protections-and-riles-faculty-members)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 21, 2020, 02:37:07 AM
IHE picked up some local reporting that Carthage College (Kenosha, WI) is in trouble; up to 20% of faculty will lose their jobs. Oddly Carthage's undergraduate FTE enrollment was higher in 2019 than it was pre-2008 recession. Yet it went from positive net revenue of $19 million in FY 2017 to a deficit of $5 million in FY 2018. And it looks like Carthage implemented a tuition reset right before the 2019-20 academic year. Something is very wacky.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 21, 2020, 05:35:25 AM
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/07/19/carthage-college-proposal-lay-off-faculty-draws-student-protest/5468267002/ indicates that Carthage College is worried about the demographic cliff and students voting with their feet for pre-professional majors. My bet is that enrollment in expensive-to-deliver majors has increased while enrollment in cheaper majors like philosophy is crashing.

College Scorecard indicates that Carthage currently has 63 fields of study with only 40 having usable data.  Carthage doesn't even have the nursing mentioned in the article, but only has allied health.  The top ten majors by number of graduates includes biology (a liberal arts field) but no humanities.

Combining the information from the article and College Scorecard indicates Carthage is making the first big step to acknowledging they are not in fact a liberal arts college.  Their Carnegie classification does not reflect being a LAC.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on July 22, 2020, 10:17:18 AM

A more general recap
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/22/colleges-resort-to-last-ditch-efforts-like-layoffs-to-stay-afloat.html

About the UMASS system
https://www.boston.com/news/education/2020/07/22/massachusetts-teachers-union-slams-umass-budget-that-cuts-jobs
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on July 24, 2020, 06:05:28 AM

Scott Galloway names names

Infographic
https://api.profgalloway.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/US_Higher_Ed4.png

Blog post
https://www.profgalloway.com/uss-university

Article mentioning the analysis as it pertains to Boston-area schools
https://www.masslive.com/news/2020/07/clark-university-mount-holyoke-college-umass-boston-and-dartmouth-are-most-likely-to-perish-according-to-new-analysis.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 24, 2020, 06:12:48 AM
The Galloway analysis completely ignores the colleges like Super Dinky.  The ones Galloway identifies as 'low value' are still mostly name-brand institutions, as logically stems from the method of using top institutions from USNWR rankings.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 24, 2020, 07:53:45 AM
I looked up some of the colleges I am familiar with on Galloway's spreadsheet----recent news from these places seems to contradict Galloway's analysis.  One SLAC which has admitted to teetering on the verge and recently laid off faculty is listed as "survive," while another SLAC which has always been healthy and wealthy, and is considered one of the best in the same region, is listed as "perish."  Unless Galloway has some sort of insider knowledge I wouldn't give much credence to his analysis----which mostly tells us what we already know anyway.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 24, 2020, 09:01:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 24, 2020, 07:53:45 AM
I looked up some of the colleges I am familiar with on Galloway's spreadsheet----recent news from these places seems to contradict Galloway's analysis.  One SLAC which has admitted to teetering on the verge and recently laid off faculty is listed as "survive," while another SLAC which has always been healthy and wealthy, and is considered one of the best in the same region, is listed as "perish."  Unless Galloway has some sort of insider knowledge I wouldn't give much credence to his analysis----which mostly tells us what we already know anyway.

Apparently Galloway's spreadsheet doesn't match his graphic either. The comments on Galloway's own post hit him really hard for unserious analysis with serious consequences.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 24, 2020, 10:12:27 AM
Quote from: Hibush on July 24, 2020, 09:01:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 24, 2020, 07:53:45 AM
I looked up some of the colleges I am familiar with on Galloway's spreadsheet----recent news from these places seems to contradict Galloway's analysis.  One SLAC which has admitted to teetering on the verge and recently laid off faculty is listed as "survive," while another SLAC which has always been healthy and wealthy, and is considered one of the best in the same region, is listed as "perish."  Unless Galloway has some sort of insider knowledge I wouldn't give much credence to his analysis----which mostly tells us what we already know anyway.

Apparently Galloway's spreadsheet doesn't match his graphic either. The comments on Galloway's own post hit him really hard for unserious analysis with serious consequences.

I have never been impressed by marketers. Especially those who teach marketing in business schools.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on July 24, 2020, 12:55:32 PM
Quote from: Hibush on July 24, 2020, 09:01:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 24, 2020, 07:53:45 AM
I looked up some of the colleges I am familiar with on Galloway's spreadsheet----recent news from these places seems to contradict Galloway's analysis.  One SLAC which has admitted to teetering on the verge and recently laid off faculty is listed as "survive," while another SLAC which has always been healthy and wealthy, and is considered one of the best in the same region, is listed as "perish."  Unless Galloway has some sort of insider knowledge I wouldn't give much credence to his analysis----which mostly tells us what we already know anyway.

Apparently Galloway's spreadsheet doesn't match his graphic either. The comments on Galloway's own post hit him really hard for unserious analysis with serious consequences.

This looks egregious-- obviously wrong things like averaging in state and out of state tuition for publics, as if they had equal numbers of each, and using sticker price rather than actual average cost of attendance. Plus people in the comments are pointing out lots of simply wrong data, including mixing up institutions with somewhat similar names.
Then he does median splits on his variables to categorize colleges-- never good statistical practice. Who knows what other bad statistical practices he's using?
I'm not sure this guy can do math, let alone appropriate statistical modeling.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 24, 2020, 01:36:10 PM
Quote from: Puget on July 24, 2020, 12:55:32 PM
Quote from: Hibush on July 24, 2020, 09:01:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 24, 2020, 07:53:45 AM
I looked up some of the colleges I am familiar with on Galloway's spreadsheet----recent news from these places seems to contradict Galloway's analysis.  One SLAC which has admitted to teetering on the verge and recently laid off faculty is listed as "survive," while another SLAC which has always been healthy and wealthy, and is considered one of the best in the same region, is listed as "perish."  Unless Galloway has some sort of insider knowledge I wouldn't give much credence to his analysis----which mostly tells us what we already know anyway.

Apparently Galloway's spreadsheet doesn't match his graphic either. The comments on Galloway's own post hit him really hard for unserious analysis with serious consequences.

This looks egregious-- obviously wrong things like averaging in state and out of state tuition for publics, as if they had equal numbers of each, and using sticker price rather than actual average cost of attendance. Plus people in the comments are pointing out lots of simply wrong data, including mixing up institutions with somewhat similar names.
Then he does median splits on his variables to categorize colleges-- never good statistical practice. Who knows what other bad statistical practices he's using?
I'm not sure this guy can do math, let alone appropriate statistical modeling.

Sounds like his bid to draw attention to his work has pretty much destroyed his credibility, then. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 24, 2020, 03:22:30 PM
He never had credibility with me as an analyst of higher ed. As I wrote either in this or some other thread, he's been repeating stuff first written back around 2012. Can't remember if I linked to it in whichever one of my posts that I'm thinking of, but this (https://philonedtech.com/clay-shirky-on-mega-universities-and-scale/) is an example of a credible analysis. And perhaps this (https://activelearningps.com/2017/07/24/mills-college-when-the-bus-leaves-the-station-and-youre-not-on-it/), though Mills is still operating.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 24, 2020, 06:11:01 PM
Quote from: spork on July 24, 2020, 10:12:27 AM
Quote from: Hibush on July 24, 2020, 09:01:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 24, 2020, 07:53:45 AM
I looked up some of the colleges I am familiar with on Galloway's spreadsheet----recent news from these places seems to contradict Galloway's analysis.  One SLAC which has admitted to teetering on the verge and recently laid off faculty is listed as "survive," while another SLAC which has always been healthy and wealthy, and is considered one of the best in the same region, is listed as "perish."  Unless Galloway has some sort of insider knowledge I wouldn't give much credence to his analysis----which mostly tells us what we already know anyway.

Apparently Galloway's spreadsheet doesn't match his graphic either. The comments on Galloway's own post hit him really hard for unserious analysis with serious consequences.

I have never been impressed by marketers. Especially those who teach marketing in business schools.

Marketers have their value, but it is not in the search for truth.

Nevertheless, they can be impressive in getting resources to those who are engaged with the search for truth.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on July 24, 2020, 06:42:58 PM
Quote from: Hibush on July 24, 2020, 06:11:01 PM
Quote from: spork on July 24, 2020, 10:12:27 AM
Quote from: Hibush on July 24, 2020, 09:01:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 24, 2020, 07:53:45 AM
I looked up some of the colleges I am familiar with on Galloway's spreadsheet----recent news from these places seems to contradict Galloway's analysis.  One SLAC which has admitted to teetering on the verge and recently laid off faculty is listed as "survive," while another SLAC which has always been healthy and wealthy, and is considered one of the best in the same region, is listed as "perish."  Unless Galloway has some sort of insider knowledge I wouldn't give much credence to his analysis----which mostly tells us what we already know anyway.

Apparently Galloway's spreadsheet doesn't match his graphic either. The comments on Galloway's own post hit him really hard for unserious analysis with serious consequences.

I have never been impressed by marketers. Especially those who teach marketing in business schools.

Marketers have their value, but it is not in the search for truth.

Nevertheless, they can be impressive in getting resources to those who are engaged with the search for truth.

Marketeers can be impressive in getting resources to those who are engaged in the quest for profits! :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on July 24, 2020, 11:34:04 PM
So why exactly do ostensibly reputable journals publish stuff like this without having scientists or mathematicians check the data, and the methodology?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 25, 2020, 02:10:17 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 24, 2020, 11:34:04 PM
So why exactly do ostensibly reputable journals publish stuff like this without having scientists or mathematicians check the data, and the methodology?

Galloway's blog is an exercise in self-promotion, not a reputable journal.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 25, 2020, 08:06:37 PM
Stephens College (private women's college in Missouri) announces 30 people laid off. (https://www.columbiamissourian.com/news/higher_education/stephens-college-lays-off-30-employees/article_96c3f634-c870-11ea-b07d-9b221cdaad01.html)

From College Scorecard, Stephens has under 600 students with only a 60% graduation rate.  Half of the ten most popular majors at graduation have fewer than 10 graduates; three of the majors have five or fewer graduates.
(https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/school/?179548-Stephens_College)

That's not looking good for a small school.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 26, 2020, 04:38:51 AM
Quote from: dismalist on July 24, 2020, 06:42:58 PM
Quote from: Hibush on July 24, 2020, 06:11:01 PM
Quote from: spork on July 24, 2020, 10:12:27 AM
Quote from: Hibush on July 24, 2020, 09:01:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 24, 2020, 07:53:45 AM

I have never been impressed by marketers. Especially those who teach marketing in business schools.

Marketers have their value, but it is not in the search for truth.

Nevertheless, they can be impressive in getting resources to those who are engaged with the search for truth.

Marketeers can be impressive in getting resources to those who are engaged in the quest for profits! :-)

If marketers are not working for you, they are working only for the people who are taking away the resources you need. Then you end up in Dire Financial Straits.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on July 26, 2020, 07:52:08 PM
Yeah, that dumb blog is, but many other real journals publish crap that they could have avoided had they done a bit of homework.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: tuxthepenguin on July 27, 2020, 08:35:50 AM
Quote from: quasihumanist on July 17, 2020, 11:31:09 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 17, 2020, 08:06:29 AM
60-80% of budget being salaries, benefits, and similar is pretty typical with teaching places having a higher percentage and research places having a lower percentage.

Things get really interesting at small enough places that infrastructure and bureaucracy costs don't scale with enrollment so that the full-time CPA with up-to-date software shows up as a noticeable non-instructional expense.

We got to answer a lot of questions at Super Dinky on how we were an undergraduate-only institution with no research and somehow our budget was only about half instructional expenses and directly related support.

Well, five full-time security guards (i.e., one on duty 24/7 to answer mundane calls like unlocking doors and jumpstarting cars while allowing vacation and sick leave) is a substantial fraction of the 25-35 full-time faculty.

Having a business office with a CFO, a full-time CPA, and three clerks to deal with paying the bills and collecting revenue is another five people who aren't teaching.

The three people in the financial aid department and the two people in the registrar's office also aren't teaching, but we can't run the college without someone doing the job.

Another five people in facilities including custodians for cleaning aren't teaching, but we can't run without them.

An IT department of 3-5 aren't teaching, but we can't run as an organization without them

All told faculty were about a quarter of the employees and we didn't have much administration.  One title was along the lines of provost and dean of faculty and overseer of athletics and overseer of co-curricular activities and enforcer of all student academic issues and first responder to parental fires and representative to most community groups.

It's worth noting that, when we read about staffing at at most colleges and universities 100 years ago, being part-time security or part-time custodian or part-time groundskeeper or part-time librarian or part-time clerk would have been part of the job duties of faculty.

Then you have a custodian teaching college classes. I can't comment on 100 years ago, but if you go back 50-70 years, in the aftermath of WWII, you'll find that "quality of instruction" wasn't high on the list of priorities. It wasn't uncommon for a "lecture" to consist of someone standing in front of a group of students reading out of a textbook for 50 minutes. No questions. No office hours. You knew that was coming if the "professor" was also a coach.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jonadam on July 29, 2020, 02:04:31 AM
His analysis does sound weird, namely because it listed College of St. Benedict as "perish", but St. John's Minnesota as "struggle". If you know about the two schools, they're very tied together schools up here in MN.

They share classes and community, but are single-sex in their residence halls and other things.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on July 29, 2020, 08:50:54 AM
Because I'm a big stats nerd, I took another look at the comments on Galloway's blog post (https://www.profgalloway.com/uss-university)-- people have done a pretty good job of peer review there, pointing out numerous analysis problems including:

1. Restriction of range: he only includes nationally ranked institutions, which are actually the least likely to "perish"

2. He then uses median splits to assign this restricted range of institutions to categories, so definitionally 25% are going to end up in each category. That is, there is no objective cut off for "perish", "struggle" etc. -- it's just top or bottom half of his restricted range.

3. Some of the input variables are garbage. e.g., he includes search traffic as a "reputation" variable, which (a) doesn't distinguish between good and bad reasons for searching, (b) weights heavily toward big institutions (he doesn't weight by institution size), and (c) weights heavily toward places with big sports teams. Other data are out of date, or downright wrong (mis-entered or in some cases wrong institution with a similar name) .

4. Uses sticker price rather than actual cost of attendance for ROI calculations (this just makes no sense at all)

5. Public tuition rates take the simple average of in-state and out-of-state, rather than being weighted for % in-state and out-of-state students (again, this makes no sense)

6. Uses endowment rather than more complete metrics of financial health, punishing institutions that rely less on endowments.

7. Is almost exclusively focused on undergrad metrics. This does not accurately characterize research universities.

8. The idea that large public universities will be allowed to "perish" is just out of touch with reality. A lot of the other labels also just don't pass face validity-- top-ranked SLACs with huge endowments aren't going anywhere either. In both cases their metrics are also likely being seriously distorted by all of the above. If the results of your model aren't face-valid, that's a strong indicator you need to check your data and code.

Really, given the extent and obviousness of these problems (I do stats, but not on these types of data, and the problems were glaringly obvious to me, and obviously lots of others who commented), I can only conclude that  he either is super incompetent or just doesn't care because the point was to get media attention and reach his pre-conceived conclusions (done and done).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on July 29, 2020, 09:42:15 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 29, 2020, 08:50:54 AM
Because I'm a big stats nerd, I took another look at the comments on Galloway's blog post (https://www.profgalloway.com/uss-university)-- people have done a pretty good job of peer review there, pointing out numerous analysis problems including:

1. Restriction of range: he only includes nationally ranked institutions, which are actually the least likely to "perish"

2. He then uses median splits to assign this restricted range of institutions to categories, so definitionally 25% are going to end up in each category. That is, there is no objective cut off for "perish", "struggle" etc. -- it's just top or bottom half of his restricted range.

3. Some of the input variables are garbage. e.g., he includes search traffic as a "reputation" variable, which (a) doesn't distinguish between good and bad reasons for searching, (b) weights heavily toward big institutions (he doesn't weight by institution size), and (c) weights heavily toward places with big sports teams. Other data are out of date, or downright wrong (mis-entered or in some cases wrong institution with a similar name) .

4. Uses sticker price rather than actual cost of attendance for ROI calculations (this just makes no sense at all)

5. Public tuition rates take the simple average of in-state and out-of-state, rather than being weighted for % in-state and out-of-state students (again, this makes no sense)

6. Uses endowment rather than more complete metrics of financial health, punishing institutions that rely less on endowments.

7. Is almost exclusively focused on undergrad metrics. This does not accurately characterize research universities.

8. The idea that large public universities will be allowed to "perish" is just out of touch with reality. A lot of the other labels also just don't pass face validity-- top-ranked SLACs with huge endowments aren't going anywhere either. In both cases their metrics are also likely being seriously distorted by all of the above. If the results of your model aren't face-valid, that's a strong indicator you need to check your data and code.

Really, given the extent and obviousness of these problems (I do stats, but not on these types of data, and the problems were glaringly obvious to me, and obviously lots of others who commented), I can only conclude that  he either is super incompetent or just doesn't care because the point was to get media attention and reach his pre-conceived conclusions (done and done).

It's good to see a clear analytical critique of this.

It runs in my mind that Octoprof did a lot of this kind of work awhile back, where is she when we need her!!??

You and she could collaborate on an article...

   (No, I realize, we all have so much on our plate at present....)

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 29, 2020, 10:23:35 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 29, 2020, 08:50:54 AM
Because I'm a big stats nerd, I took another look at the comments on Galloway's blog post (https://www.profgalloway.com/uss-university)-- people have done a pretty good job of peer review there, pointing out numerous analysis problems including:

1. Restriction of range: he only includes nationally ranked institutions, which are actually the least likely to "perish"

2. He then uses median splits to assign this restricted range of institutions to categories, so definitionally 25% are going to end up in each category. That is, there is no objective cut off for "perish", "struggle" etc. -- it's just top or bottom half of his restricted range.

3. Some of the input variables are garbage. e.g., he includes search traffic as a "reputation" variable, which (a) doesn't distinguish between good and bad reasons for searching, (b) weights heavily toward big institutions (he doesn't weight by institution size), and (c) weights heavily toward places with big sports teams. Other data are out of date, or downright wrong (mis-entered or in some cases wrong institution with a similar name) .

4. Uses sticker price rather than actual cost of attendance for ROI calculations (this just makes no sense at all)

5. Public tuition rates take the simple average of in-state and out-of-state, rather than being weighted for % in-state and out-of-state students (again, this makes no sense)

6. Uses endowment rather than more complete metrics of financial health, punishing institutions that rely less on endowments.

7. Is almost exclusively focused on undergrad metrics. This does not accurately characterize research universities.

8. The idea that large public universities will be allowed to "perish" is just out of touch with reality. A lot of the other labels also just don't pass face validity-- top-ranked SLACs with huge endowments aren't going anywhere either. In both cases their metrics are also likely being seriously distorted by all of the above. If the results of your model aren't face-valid, that's a strong indicator you need to check your data and code.

Really, given the extent and obviousness of these problems (I do stats, but not on these types of data, and the problems were glaringly obvious to me, and obviously lots of others who commented), I can only conclude that  he either is super incompetent or just doesn't care because the point was to get media attention and reach his pre-conceived conclusions (done and done).

Absolutely love this.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on July 29, 2020, 11:15:38 AM
One more thing, since bad data analysis with bad consequences for self-serving purposes just makes me so mad that I'm thinking about this instead of my actual work. Warning, this is pretty stats-y.

As far as I can tell, there is no empirical basis whatsoever for this model. Something is only a model if it predicts something. In a real model, the variables are chosen based on prior evidence that they are predictive, and their weights are determined empirically, based on that prior data (if you're familiar with the concept of regression, think of this as the beta weights, but it's more complicated because good models also try to avoid over-fitting prior data, which ends up fitting noise).

According to the blog post and data sheet, they didn't do any of this. They literally just did some arithmetic on (presumably z-scored) variables like so:
Value: (Credential * Experience * Education) / Tuition.
Vulnerability: (Endowment / Student and % International Students).

Why are the "value" indicators multiplied rather than added? Why are they given equal weight? Each of those variables is in turn an unweighted composite of several other variables-- again, what is the basis for equal weights? Why use tuition (again, this is book price, not actual cost) as the denominator? Why is it a denominator and not just subtracted? Same questions for "vulnerability". I'm willing to bet several million quintaloons or whatever the fake fora currency was called that he has no good answers to those questions.

In contrast, a real model would look something like:
Risk of failure (and you have to define what that means) = b1*variable1 + b2*variable2 + b3*variable3 . . . + bn*variablen + error
Where the b's are empirically determined weights (negative or positive) determined by past data. Some of the variables in this data set may be highly predictive, others may not be-- you need to find out based on real data. You probably also need interactions among variables (e.g., the other variables are likely going to have very different effects for public vs. private institutions). For example, this is now good election forecast models like 538's work.

Now, one could argue that there simply isn't enough past relevant data, since there are so many unknowns with COVID. But the answer to that is either don't make a model then, or make a model based on the best available past data incorporating a high degree of uncertainty (that is, you'll end up with wide confidence intervals around your estimates).

If you were really quibbling, you can defend him by saying he never actually claims it's a model to forecast future events. However, the very names of the quadrants and their descriptions use explicitly forecast-y language (e.g., "perish" certainly implies he's predicting these institutions will go under).  This is not a model, it's not science, and it's downright irresponsible. But then he is in marketing, so I guess that's all par for the course. I just wish the media hadn't run with it with so little critical thinking.

(Tearing this apart and trying to do it better would make a GREAT project for a graduate statistics course though).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 29, 2020, 11:19:29 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 29, 2020, 08:50:54 AM
Because I'm a big stats nerd, I took another look at the comments on Galloway's blog post I can only conclude that  he either is super incompetent or just doesn't care because the point was to get media attention and reach his pre-conceived conclusions (done and done).

Getting media attention is the goal of marketers, at least the intermediate goal, much like publishing a paper in a high-profile journal is a goal of researchers.

A marketing guy like Galloway should be going for media attention. As we all recognize, veracity is not one of the requirements and indeed may be a strong impediment to strong media attention. 

Therefore, I think your second point is likely the driving factor. It does not preclude the first also being true. At least in the sense of being incompetent at informative data analysis, while being hypercompetent at marketing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on July 29, 2020, 12:21:55 PM
Quote from: spork on July 29, 2020, 10:23:35 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 29, 2020, 08:50:54 AM
Because I'm a big stats nerd, I took another look at the comments on Galloway's blog post (https://www.profgalloway.com/uss-university)-- people have done a pretty good job of peer review there, pointing out numerous analysis problems including:

1. Restriction of range: he only includes nationally ranked institutions, which are actually the least likely to "perish"

2. He then uses median splits to assign this restricted range of institutions to categories, so definitionally 25% are going to end up in each category. That is, there is no objective cut off for "perish", "struggle" etc. -- it's just top or bottom half of his restricted range.

3. Some of the input variables are garbage. e.g., he includes search traffic as a "reputation" variable, which (a) doesn't distinguish between good and bad reasons for searching, (b) weights heavily toward big institutions (he doesn't weight by institution size), and (c) weights heavily toward places with big sports teams. Other data are out of date, or downright wrong (mis-entered or in some cases wrong institution with a similar name) .

4. Uses sticker price rather than actual cost of attendance for ROI calculations (this just makes no sense at all)

5. Public tuition rates take the simple average of in-state and out-of-state, rather than being weighted for % in-state and out-of-state students (again, this makes no sense)

6. Uses endowment rather than more complete metrics of financial health, punishing institutions that rely less on endowments.

7. Is almost exclusively focused on undergrad metrics. This does not accurately characterize research universities.

8. The idea that large public universities will be allowed to "perish" is just out of touch with reality. A lot of the other labels also just don't pass face validity-- top-ranked SLACs with huge endowments aren't going anywhere either. In both cases their metrics are also likely being seriously distorted by all of the above. If the results of your model aren't face-valid, that's a strong indicator you need to check your data and code.

Really, given the extent and obviousness of these problems (I do stats, but not on these types of data, and the problems were glaringly obvious to me, and obviously lots of others who commented), I can only conclude that  he either is super incompetent or just doesn't care because the point was to get media attention and reach his pre-conceived conclusions (done and done).

Absolutely love this.

I pretty much figure that Galloway is trying to take Clay Christensen's place as higher ed's most revered oracle.  I did not have much faith in Christensen usually said, and I have even less in Galloway.

If Ambrose Bierce were still alive and working on The Devil's Dictionary, his definition for Blogging and/or Tweeting would be something like "screaming nonsense into the ether without benefit of an editor".
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 29, 2020, 01:07:23 PM
Quote from: Puget on July 29, 2020, 11:15:38 AM

[. . . ]

As far as I can tell, there is no empirical basis whatsoever for this model. Something is only a model if it predicts something. In a real model, the variables are chosen based on prior evidence that they are predictive

[. . . ]


Curious what your take is on this (relatively non-statsy) model (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2019/07/11/potential-indicator-colleges-may-face-major-financial-challenges-opinion) from a year ago.

Quote

(Tearing this apart and trying to do it better would make a GREAT project for a graduate statistics course though).

I can see it as a project for an undergraduate course on risk and forecasting. If such courses exist at the undergraduate level. They should.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on July 29, 2020, 02:22:26 PM
QuoteIf Ambrose Bierce were still alive and working on The Devil's Dictionary, his definition for Blogging and/or Tweeting would be something like "screaming nonsense into the ether without benefit of an editor".

This is going over to the bumper sticker thread....

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on July 29, 2020, 03:18:08 PM
Quote from: spork on July 29, 2020, 01:07:23 PM
Quote from: Puget on July 29, 2020, 11:15:38 AM

[. . . ]

As far as I can tell, there is no empirical basis whatsoever for this model. Something is only a model if it predicts something. In a real model, the variables are chosen based on prior evidence that they are predictive

[. . . ]


Curious what your take is on this (relatively non-statsy) model (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2019/07/11/potential-indicator-colleges-may-face-major-financial-challenges-opinion) from a year ago.

Quote

(Tearing this apart and trying to do it better would make a GREAT project for a graduate statistics course though).

I can see it as a project for an undergraduate course on risk and forecasting. If such courses exist at the undergraduate level. They should.

Took a really quick look clicking through to the original report (which seems to be an internal white paper, not a peer reviewed publication). It's better in that they had actual data comparing institutions that closed to similar institutions that didn't. However, it is pretty much purely descriptive -- there is no actual model, identifying how much each risk factor contributes in a way that would let you predict out-of-sample new closings. Most of the conclusions seem pretty obvious (tiny institutions with no endowment are more likely to close, gee golly you don't say!).

Someone with the time and skills could almost certainly build such a model. It would take time to put together an appropriate data set (i.e., NOT what Galloway is using), but it shouldn't be fundamentally different than modeling in other domains I wouldn't think-- e.g., presidential elections are also complex and not that frequent, but people model those, albeit with mixed success. Reasons for failure there would also apply here and be avoided-- reliance on two few variables, over-confidence (not building in enough error variance), over-fitting past data (which contributes to the over-confidence), and not recognizing the importance of interactions between predictors. In fact, college closings may be easier to model because most of the predictors should be measured with less error than election polling (e.g., enrollment should be a pretty error-free measurement). Great dissertation project.

Maybe someone HAS done all this and I just haven't heard about it, but I thin we would have heard about it here?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 29, 2020, 03:56:53 PM
Well, there is Edmit, but it's plan to publicly release its findings was squashed:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/11/19/private-colleges-convinced-company-scuttle-release-list-projected-college-closures (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/11/19/private-colleges-convinced-company-scuttle-release-list-projected-college-closures).

Another article about Edmit, regarding Covid-19 effects:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/05/08/metro/amid-pandemic-growing-list-colleges-financial-peril/ (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/05/08/metro/amid-pandemic-growing-list-colleges-financial-peril/).

As far as I know, the specifics of Edmit's model (variable weights, etc.) haven't been made public, but all data used in the model seems to be publicly available.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on July 29, 2020, 06:07:19 PM
Edmit is closest to a real model as Puget describes.

https://www.educationdive.com/news/how-many-colleges-and-universities-have-closed-since-2016/539379/ is collecting data.

There's another widely circulated, not quite really model white paper from within the past five years that I can't pull up right now.

One thing that's common in my current work is what to do when you can't get a predictive model because you can't get data and yet decisions have to be made.  Looking for major factors and then trying to set danger points along with a solid margin for error tends to be typical.  However, Galloway's assertions fail on that type of analysis as well since it ignored the institutions that are truly at risk.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Diogenes on July 30, 2020, 04:06:12 PM
Quote from: Puget on July 29, 2020, 11:15:38 AM

If you were really quibbling, you can defend him by saying he never actually claims it's a model to forecast future events.

But even when he ultimately does say that, it should be noted he's is using predictive language in his claims- certain colleges WILL perish.

The best part is how he talks in one video about how he gets paid waayyy too much to be a professor. If his stats are that bad, I concur with his analysis on at least one claim.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on July 30, 2020, 07:20:58 PM
Quote from: Diogenes on July 30, 2020, 04:06:12 PM
Quote from: Puget on July 29, 2020, 11:15:38 AM

If you were really quibbling, you can defend him by saying he never actually claims it's a model to forecast future events.

But even when he ultimately does say that, it should be noted he's is using predictive language in his claims- certain colleges WILL perish.

The best part is how he talks in one video about how he gets paid waayyy too much to be a professor. If his stats are that bad, I concur with his analysis on at least one claim.

Right, unless I'm misunderstanding your point here that's what I said:
QuoteHowever, the very names of the quadrants and their descriptions use explicitly forecast-y language (e.g., "perish" certainly implies he's predicting these institutions will go under).


With the latter I agree-- the disparity between business school and A&S salaries is quite something, and I've seen no evidence it's warranted, certainly not in his case.

Quote from: spork on July 29, 2020, 03:56:53 PM

As far as I know, the specifics of Edmit's model (variable weights, etc.) haven't been made public, but all data used in the model seems to be publicly available.

I wouldn't necessarily expect them to release the code-- they after all are in this to sell it. I would at least expect to see a detailed description of the methodology including the variables and their statistical approach. Again I think 538 is a good example of people who are doing it right within the constraints of not giving away their work entirely-- they don't share the code, but  they provide very detailed documentation of methodology (much more than the average reader wants or can understand) and are transparent with the data (much of it downloadable). Of course, an academic effort could and should release the code and data both.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pgher on July 31, 2020, 05:28:21 PM
On a morning show today, there was a university president, from a university on Galloway's perish list. He said it was garbage in, garbage out. Apparently his university has grown a lot with online students which weren't counted at all by Galloway, and then got dinged for being a predominantly residential campus.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 01, 2020, 08:44:48 PM
Forbes on Akron (https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpoliakoff/2020/07/31/university-of-akrons-budget-bloodbath-and-what-the-latest-faculty-cuts-say-about-its-commitment-to-education/?subId3=xid%3Afr1596287263679bii&fbclid=IwAR2AY7ak3Xe4k6rH7WGbre8ApeNIgWEwd2PH5BaD_XcAH2bNW-R5gJaHuwk#5404a0523453).

What a cluster****.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on August 02, 2020, 06:30:08 AM
Quote from: pgher on July 31, 2020, 05:28:21 PM
On a morning show today, there was a university president, from a university on Galloway's perish list. He said it was garbage in, garbage out. Apparently his university has grown a lot with online students which weren't counted at all by Galloway, and then got dinged for being a predominantly residential campus.

I think we need to add "garbage in the middle"-- even if the input data were not garbage the results would be garbage because there's no actual model in the middle, just some unsupported arithmetic.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pgher on August 02, 2020, 12:04:33 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 01, 2020, 08:44:48 PM
Forbes on Akron (https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpoliakoff/2020/07/31/university-of-akrons-budget-bloodbath-and-what-the-latest-faculty-cuts-say-about-its-commitment-to-education/?subId3=xid%3Afr1596287263679bii&fbclid=IwAR2AY7ak3Xe4k6rH7WGbre8ApeNIgWEwd2PH5BaD_XcAH2bNW-R5gJaHuwk#5404a0523453).

What a cluster****.

A very dear friend of mine lives in Ohio. Her son will be a freshman at Akron this fall. They visited and he fell in love with it, and I have to believe they've read the news. So I'm reluctant to say anything to them about this. My hope is that they have four good years left.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on August 02, 2020, 03:21:21 PM
https://www.bizjournals.com/albany/news/2020/07/31/college-of-saint-rose-albany-budget-cuts.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on August 02, 2020, 03:23:03 PM
Sorry. Paywall on that one. This one isn't as detailed ... but has the basics ...
https://www.news10.com/news/the-college-of-saint-rose-to-address-financial-issues/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on August 02, 2020, 03:47:22 PM
Thank you so much for the ungated version. It is well worth reading.

While the usual is being done at the college, the most significant decision is probably: The changes will also allow the College to build upon the momentum generated by new offerings, including the 2-in-4 program, in which students can earn a bachelor's and master's degree in four years ... .

Once we're at 0-in-4 we're close to home!

In bad times there is nothing like competition to energize kicking down barriers which have become artifacts. :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 02, 2020, 06:40:04 PM
Quote from: selecter on August 02, 2020, 03:23:03 PM
Sorry. Paywall on that one. This one isn't as detailed ... but has the basics ...
https://www.news10.com/news/the-college-of-saint-rose-to-address-financial-issues/

The interim president is an alumna who has experience making an arts nonprofit organization financially sustainable. That is a positive sign in that she knows how to center on the mission and make the dreaded budget cuts in light of that.

I'm skeptical though about reviving the nursing program. Their one-time leadership in that discipline won't have momentum seven decades after they dropped it. They won't even have alumnae. Another thread  (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=1584.0)here goes into the irrational expectation that administrators bring to new nursing programs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on August 02, 2020, 07:05:51 PM
The mean time for university students to complete a bachelor's degree in my region is 6.5 years.

The College of St. Rose must be a super elite institution if they're cranking out graduates with a combined bachelor's and master's in 4 years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on August 02, 2020, 07:28:59 PM
Quote from: Aster on August 02, 2020, 07:05:51 PM
The mean time for university students to complete a bachelor's degree in my region is 6.5 years.

The College of St. Rose must be a super elite institution if they're cranking out graduates with a combined bachelor's and master's in 4 years.

Median? :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on August 02, 2020, 07:42:30 PM
With the College's recent efforts pertaining to administrators and staff, a projected $15.8 million deficit has been reduced to $9.6 million. While those reductions were significant, a nearly $10 million structural deficit is not something the College can continue to carry

So this was a pre-COVID structural deficit? Yikes.

They are planning for a staggered in-person fall. If this doesn't come to fruition, their pain will only grow.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on August 03, 2020, 08:00:59 AM
Quote from: Hibush on August 02, 2020, 06:40:04 PM
Quote from: selecter on August 02, 2020, 03:23:03 PM
Sorry. Paywall on that one. This one isn't as detailed ... but has the basics ...
https://www.news10.com/news/the-college-of-saint-rose-to-address-financial-issues/

The interim president is an alumna who has experience making an arts nonprofit organization financially sustainable. That is a positive sign in that she knows how to center on the mission and make the dreaded budget cuts in light of that.

I'm skeptical though about reviving the nursing program. Their one-time leadership in that discipline won't have momentum seven decades after they dropped it. They won't even have alumnae. Another thread  (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=1584.0)here goes into the irrational expectation that administrators bring to new nursing programs.

Other posters have indicated that nursing programs are rather expensive to create and operate.  Even assuming that the start-up program was a success and eventually turned into a money maker, it would surely take a long-term investment to make a go of it.  A college that is already in dire financial straits isn't a good candidate for pulling it off.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on August 03, 2020, 11:45:16 AM
Quote... and the return of a nursing degree, in which Saint Rose was a leader before the program was discontinued in the 1950s.

Wow. That's reaaally reaching back in time.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on August 03, 2020, 12:21:24 PM
College of Saint Rose will be gone within five years. SUNY-Albany is less than three miles away, is 25% less expensive, and salaries after graduation are significantly higher.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on August 03, 2020, 02:05:05 PM
Back to Galloway for a second.

He rated Artem U as "struggling".

In the last few months, Artem U has cut pension contributions, furloughed staff, and had across the board salary cuts.  Last month, the first dean headed for the exits.

Galloway's math may be questionable, but his conclusion re: Artem U seems to be empirically correct.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 03, 2020, 02:14:46 PM
Quote from: Aster on August 03, 2020, 11:45:16 AM
Quote... and the return of a nursing degree, in which Saint Rose was a leader before the program was discontinued in the 1950s.

Wow. That's reaaally reaching back in time.

Those laurels may have gotten too crinkly to rest on.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on August 03, 2020, 04:07:25 PM
Quote from: Hibush on August 03, 2020, 02:14:46 PM
Quote from: Aster on August 03, 2020, 11:45:16 AM
Quote... and the return of a nursing degree, in which Saint Rose was a leader before the program was discontinued in the 1950s.

Wow. That's reaaally reaching back in time.

Those laurels may have gotten too crinkly to rest on.

I don't know the specific history of College of Saint Rose, but many of these at-one-time-religiously-affiliated schools originated as "safe" places where women could receive training in the occupations that were available to them at the time -- teachers (i.e., the normal schools), nurses, and, from about the 1940s onward, secretaries. Not only are nursing programs expensive to operate and require meeting professional accreditation standards, the women who might have enrolled in them in 1949 now have many more career options.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on August 04, 2020, 08:26:40 AM
Unity College is moving to online-only instruction and will probably liquidate physical assets in an attempt to stay solvent:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/08/04/unity-college-end-campus-instruction (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/08/04/unity-college-end-campus-instruction).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on August 04, 2020, 10:12:52 AM
Also from IHE, the University of Arizona has bought for-profit Ashford University:


https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/08/04/backlash-begins-against-university-arizonas-acquisition-ashford-university


A lot of anger being expressed over a public institution seeking to turn a predatory for-profit into a cash cow.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 04, 2020, 10:41:04 AM
Quote from: apl68 on August 04, 2020, 10:12:52 AM
Also from IHE, the University of Arizona has bought for-profit Ashford University:


https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/08/04/backlash-begins-against-university-arizonas-acquisition-ashford-university


A lot of anger being expressed over a public institution seeking to turn a predatory for-profit into a cash cow.

Our colleges have to survive somehow. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 04, 2020, 10:58:13 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 04, 2020, 10:41:04 AM
Quote from: apl68 on August 04, 2020, 10:12:52 AM
Also from IHE, the University of Arizona has bought for-profit Ashford University:


https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/08/04/backlash-begins-against-university-arizonas-acquisition-ashford-university


A lot of anger being expressed over a public institution seeking to turn a predatory for-profit into a cash cow.

Our colleges have to survive somehow.

Some subset of the colleges and universities need to survive.  Arizona as a state has far more seats than than the state needs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 04, 2020, 01:14:53 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 04, 2020, 10:58:13 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 04, 2020, 10:41:04 AM
Quote from: apl68 on August 04, 2020, 10:12:52 AM
Also from IHE, the University of Arizona has bought for-profit Ashford University:


https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/08/04/backlash-begins-against-university-arizonas-acquisition-ashford-university


A lot of anger being expressed over a public institution seeking to turn a predatory for-profit into a cash cow.

Our colleges have to survive somehow.

Some subset of the colleges and universities need to survive.  Arizona as a state has far more seats than than the state needs.

Okay.  Fair enough.  Our colleges have to prosper somehow.  Now all those on-line students can get the benefit of a bona fide well-respected university on those unavoidable on-line degrees and UofA can fund all that awesome research and teaching.  Turn that predation legit.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 04, 2020, 04:07:27 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 04, 2020, 01:14:53 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 04, 2020, 10:58:13 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 04, 2020, 10:41:04 AM
Quote from: apl68 on August 04, 2020, 10:12:52 AM
Also from IHE, the University of Arizona has bought for-profit Ashford University:


https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/08/04/backlash-begins-against-university-arizonas-acquisition-ashford-university

Damnit, Purdue pulled this scam first!


A lot of anger being expressed over a public institution seeking to turn a predatory for-profit into a cash cow.

Our colleges have to survive somehow.

Some subset of the colleges and universities need to survive.  Arizona as a state has far more seats than than the state needs.

Okay.  Fair enough.  Our colleges have to prosper somehow.  Now all those on-line students can get the benefit of a bona fide well-respected university on those unavoidable on-line degrees and UofA can fund all that awesome research and teaching.  Turn that predation legit.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 04, 2020, 04:23:45 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 04, 2020, 01:14:53 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 04, 2020, 10:58:13 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 04, 2020, 10:41:04 AM
Quote from: apl68 on August 04, 2020, 10:12:52 AM
Also from IHE, the University of Arizona has bought for-profit Ashford University:


https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/08/04/backlash-begins-against-university-arizonas-acquisition-ashford-university


A lot of anger being expressed over a public institution seeking to turn a predatory for-profit into a cash cow.

Our colleges have to survive somehow.

Some subset of the colleges and universities need to survive.  Arizona as a state has far more seats than than the state needs.

Okay.  Fair enough.  Our colleges have to prosper somehow.  Now all those on-line students can get the benefit of a bona fide well-respected university on those unavoidable on-line degrees and UofA can fund all that awesome research and teaching.  Turn that predation legit.

Arizona State already has a very good online program.  Southern New Hampshire already has a very good online program that enrolls students in Arizona as do dozens of good state schools.

The time for University of Arizona to get in the online game for the good of Arizona students who needed online was 15 years ago.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 04, 2020, 04:44:01 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 04, 2020, 04:23:45 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 04, 2020, 01:14:53 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 04, 2020, 10:58:13 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 04, 2020, 10:41:04 AM
Quote from: apl68 on August 04, 2020, 10:12:52 AM
Also from IHE, the University of Arizona has bought for-profit Ashford University:


https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/08/04/backlash-begins-against-university-arizonas-acquisition-ashford-university


A lot of anger being expressed over a public institution seeking to turn a predatory for-profit into a cash cow.

Our colleges have to survive somehow.

Some subset of the colleges and universities need to survive.  Arizona as a state has far more seats than than the state needs.

Okay.  Fair enough.  Our colleges have to prosper somehow.  Now all those on-line students can get the benefit of a bona fide well-respected university on those unavoidable on-line degrees and UofA can fund all that awesome research and teaching.  Turn that predation legit.

Arizona State already has a very good online program.  Southern New Hampshire already has a very good online program that enrolls students in Arizona as do dozens of good state schools.

The time for University of Arizona to get in the online game for the good of Arizona students who needed online was 15 years ago.

I think you should tell them that they missed the boat and they're are not allowed online!   We can only have so many online schools, after all, what with all these masks and everything! ;)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on August 04, 2020, 05:58:58 PM
"My diploma mill is better!"

"No, my diploma mill is better!"

"You're all wrong. This diploma mill is better
."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 04, 2020, 06:22:39 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 04, 2020, 04:44:01 PM


I think you should tell them that they missed the boat and they're are not allowed online!   We can only have so many online schools, after all, what with all these masks and everything! ;)

If the goal is to save the university, then buying a dud is much less effective than licensing celebrities to give mass lectures with fabulous production values and allow the general public to buy season tickets.

Everyone has online.  Nobody else would have, say,  HIST 105: Penn and Teller Splat Their Way Through History.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 04, 2020, 08:15:59 PM
Quote from: Aster on August 04, 2020, 05:58:58 PM
"My diploma mill is better!"

"No, my diploma mill is better!"

"You're all wrong. This diploma mill is better
."

Well...actually yeah.  That pretty much sums it up. 

What do we expect these college presidents and BoTs to do? 

Perhaps, as Polly is so eager to opine, they should begin to cut-back and close down gracefully.

But does that sound like human nature, or something these people want to tell their campuses, or fit with the business model creeping over academia?

How is Purdue Global doing?

B'sides, is there any reason a legitimate university shouldn't offer mass online education?  I keep hearing about how academia should be helping these low-SES students----seems like this is just such an approach---and I keep hearing about how academia should be responsive to students----ditto.  And we need to look at the future of ed, I guess. 

You're right, of course, but it is also true that we as a community simply approach everything with a hefty dose of negativity and wanting-cake-and-eating-it-too.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on August 04, 2020, 10:30:26 PM
Obviously I, like many academics of a certain age, have a strong, almost visceral, bias against online ed, esp for-profit diploma mills, of course, but I am wondering, has anyone actually done any systematic research wrt exactly how competent online higher ed education is, esp when such online schools are not for-profit diploma mills?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 05, 2020, 06:40:43 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 04, 2020, 10:30:26 PM
Obviously I, like many academics of a certain age, have a strong, almost visceral, bias against online ed, esp for-profit diploma mills, of course, but I am wondering, has anyone actually done any systematic research wrt exactly how competent online higher ed education is, esp when such online schools are not for-profit diploma mills?

I don't have a study at my fingertips, but the impression from the past ten years is one can do excellent online education in specific fields with sufficient resources.

The sticking point is usually devoting sufficient resources to:

* have course designers work with subject matter experts to design a course that draws on the best activities for online.  This is usually the better part of a year when done right.

* support the professors to allow them to focus on teaching and student interaction instead of the nuts and bolts of uploading material and troubleshooting the website.

* support the students from registration through final exam to help them focus on the material and becoming an independent learner.  The more complicated the typical student's life, the better the baseline process needs to be.  The less prepared the average student is, the higher the bar needs to be for a streamlined process to ensure successful onboarding to the program.  This means a lot of staff in IT, generalized bureaucracy, and the tutoring center.  Putting non-academic student support on individual faculty violates point two.

Excellent online is expensive to run and even more expensive to run when targeting a population that can't go to college full-time residential because of their life circumstances.  Having good national online programs is a better overall plan than supporting half-assed programs if the goal is reaching more people who need online.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on August 05, 2020, 08:06:49 AM
Quote from: spork on July 21, 2020, 02:37:07 AM
IHE picked up some local reporting that Carthage College (Kenosha, WI) is in trouble; up to 20% of faculty will lose their jobs. Oddly Carthage's undergraduate FTE enrollment was higher in 2019 than it was pre-2008 recession. Yet it went from positive net revenue of $19 million in FY 2017 to a deficit of $5 million in FY 2018. And it looks like Carthage implemented a tuition reset right before the 2019-20 academic year. Something is very wacky.

Quote from: polly_mer on July 21, 2020, 05:35:25 AM
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/07/19/carthage-college-proposal-lay-off-faculty-draws-student-protest/5468267002/ indicates that Carthage College is worried about the demographic cliff and students voting with their feet for pre-professional majors. My bet is that enrollment in expensive-to-deliver majors has increased while enrollment in cheaper majors like philosophy is crashing.

College Scorecard indicates that Carthage currently has 63 fields of study with only 40 having usable data.  Carthage doesn't even have the nursing mentioned in the article, but only has allied health.  The top ten majors by number of graduates includes biology (a liberal arts field) but no humanities.

Combining the information from the article and College Scorecard indicates Carthage is making the first big step to acknowledging they are not in fact a liberal arts college.  Their Carnegie classification does not reflect being a LAC.

Carthage has announched (https://www.carthage.edu/bridge/academic-department-reorganization-faqs/) it's getting rid of Classics, Great Ideas, and Philosophy. Some Philosophy courses will be taught out of "another humanities department" (ugh). Biology, English, Modern Languages, Music, Physics & Astronomy, Political Science, Religion, and Sociology & Criminal Justice are safe. (In fairness, their Philosophy program doesn't look great to me, and I'm not surprised their majors/minors are so low. But I guess there's only so much you can do with two faculty.)

All faculty will see their course loads increase by 1 more course a year.


Also from the Q&A, since you mentioned it:

QuoteWill Carthage still be a liberal arts institution?

Absolutely. Carthage has always been, is, and will always be a liberal arts institution. We will continue to offer courses and majors across the liberal arts and sciences, and all of our students will continue to fulfill their general education requirements in these liberal arts.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 05, 2020, 08:57:40 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 04, 2020, 10:30:26 PM
Obviously I, like many academics of a certain age, have a strong, almost visceral, bias against online ed, esp for-profit diploma mills, of course, but I am wondering, has anyone actually done any systematic research wrt exactly how competent online higher ed education is, esp when such online schools are not for-profit diploma mills?

I too am of a certain age and reacted with typical negativity to the entire idea of computer-college.  We should expect a learning-curve and bobbles along the way (MOOCs anyone?).  When has anything worked smoothly out of the gate?

I still prefer the classroom experience, but the last 6 months has increased my appreciation for online learning.  We are getting more usable tools, as well as developing online teaching techniques.  At my school, at least, we already have instructor groups which meet regularly to practice the technology, and several of us are spending our own money on supplementary applications.  I suspect we are not alone.

And no matter what, distance ed is here. 

Why is a UofA degree automatically a diploma mill anyway? 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 05, 2020, 12:56:37 PM
I messed up a quote function earlier. Sorry.

I have had quite an opportunity (not one I sought) to look at Purdue Global courses. They, as when they were  Kaplan before, are simply not good. Kaplan was IMO predatory, especially in its targeting go young veterans.

Ashford U is no different. Given the Kaplan-Purdue lack of changes, I have no confidence that now that is magically University of Arizona Online it will be transforMed either. Below is a list of issues (okay, copied from Wikipedia) re Ashford.

Lawsuits and controversies
Audits, investigations, and lawsuits (2006-2011)

According to U.S. Senate testimony by Arlie Willems, retired reviewer for the Iowa Department of Education, the Iowa Department of Education denied Ashford University's request in 2006 to offer an online Master of Arts in Teaching (MAT) on the grounds that the program "was more a collection of discrete courses than a cohesive program, was understaffed for appropriate interaction with students and supervision of both courses and clinical experiences, including student teaching. Many faculty members lacked appropriate academic background and/or experiences for their assigned responsibilities. The most serious concern noted by the team was the lack of responsibility on the part of the program in providing quality clinical experiences, the aspect of teacher preparation considered the most important by preparation programs in Iowa."[64]

Willems also testified that Ashford entered into partnership with Rio Salado Community College whereas education courses from the Ashford BA in Social Science with a Concentration in Education could apply to Rio Salado's post-baccalaureate teacher education program. Once students have completed the online Ashford BA and the online Rio Salado teacher education program, they are eligible for an Arizona teaching license. Willem's noted that this partnership could be seen as a creative way to solve a problem in order to continue drawing students, or it could be seen as a way to circumvent the accountability system for quality in order to continue collecting tuition from students. An individual who has attained an Arizona license in this way does not automatically receive an Iowa license because Iowa and Arizona do not have a reciprocity agreement.

According to Willems, complaints from Ashford students concerning this agreement and licensure include:
1) Individuals from Iowa and many other states had completed Ashford's online Bachelor of Arts in Social Science with a Concentration in Education. These individuals had been led to believe that, upon completion of this program, they would be eligible for a license in their home state because Ashford has a state-approved teacher education program (the on-ground undergraduate program).
2) Individuals were students or graduates of the Ashford online baccalaureate program, but were not aware of the need to complete the Rio Salado program as well in order to receive an Arizona license. These individuals were not even aware of the Rio Salado partnership.
3) Ashford students were intending to complete student teaching through Rio Salado College and believed they would then automatically be eligible for an Iowa teaching license.
4) Students were completing an online degree through Ashford in early childhood believed that this degree would lead to an Iowa teaching license. It does not.[64]
In May 2008, the U.S. Department of Education's Office of Inspector General (OIG) audit services division commenced a compliance audit of Ashford University covering the period March 10, 2005, through June 30, 2009. The OIG audit reached the following conclusions:

Audit focus[65]   Audit result[66]

Compensation policies and practices relating to enrollment advisers   Rewarded recruiters based on their success in securing enrollments
Calculation, timeliness, and disbursement accuracy of Title IV program funds   Improperly retained at least $1.1 million during the 2006–7 period
Student authorizations to retain credit balances   Kept credit balances without the proper authorization
Maintenance of supporting documentation for a student's leave of absence   Took too long to return money awarded to students who withdrew

The stock of Ashford's parent company, Bridgepoint Education, fell the most in almost five months when the misuse of federal student aid was first publicly disclosed in 2009.[65] When the official results were released in 2011, Senator Tom Harkin said this audit "reveals the same troubling pattern of for-profit colleges' taking advantage of students and taxpayers." The Department of Education has not yet responded to the findings.[66]
The audit was the subject of a U.S. Senate committee hearing on March 10, 2011.[67]

A Bloomberg News report revealed that Ashford was recruiting disabled soldiers at the Wounded Warrior Battalion at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, including a Marine with a traumatic brain injury.[68]

2011 Iowa Attorney General investigation and US Senate hearings

According to a February 15, 2011, filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission, Ashford University and its parent company, Bridgepoint Education, received a letter from the Iowa Attorney General's office on February 9, 2011, requesting "documents and detailed information" from January 1, 2008, to the present to determine if Ashford's business practices possibly violated the state's Consumer Fraud Act.[69]
On March 10, 2011, Senator Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) chaired a hearing of the Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee that examined a case study of Ashford's parent company, which has experienced near-exponential profit growth in the last few years despite low graduation rates. Bridgepoint owns two universities that it purchased when both were near bankruptcy, Ashford University in Iowa and the University of the Rockies in Colorado. When it purchased Ashford University in 2005, it had fewer than 300 students but in 2010 it claimed to have over 78,000 students, 99% of which were online.[70][71][72]
Senator Harkin took issue with success of the company saying that while Bridgepoint may have had record profits the students were not succeeding. According to information provided by Senator Harkin in the committee hearing, 63% of students who enrolled at Ashford University during the 2008-2009 school year withdrew before completion of their prospective program. Senator Harkin pointed out that Bridgepoint recorded more than $216 million in profits in 2010; of which 86.5 percent of its revenues come from federal funds. In reference to the dependence of Bridgepoint on public funds, Senator Harkin was quoted as saying, "I think this is a scam, an absolute scam."[71]
Kathleen Tighe, who is an inspector general with the U.S. Department of Education, testified at the hearing that in an audit of Ashford, she discovered Ashford was improperly distributing student aid to students. "Seventy-five percent of the improper disbursements to students in our sample were made to students who never became eligible," Tighe said. Bridgepoint hadn't returned the improperly obtained student aid to the federal government, and said on a recent report she'd seen that Bridgepoint was "sitting on $130 million" in these types of funds.[71]
Due to the ongoing Office of Federal Student Aid (FSA) proceedings, and in order to preserve due process, Ashford's parent company, Bridgepoint Education, chose not to send executives to the HELP committee hearing while engaged in negotiations with FSA.[73] Rather, Bridgepoint published a summary of responses called Bridgepoint Education Transparency.

Audits, investigations, and lawsuits (2011-2019)
Ashford has also been audited for its recruiting and finance practices in a U.S. Department of Education audit. Bridgepoint Education responded in March 2011 with a report asserting that the information used in the Senate hearing was either inaccurate or incomplete.[74]
On December 3, 2014 a suit was filed in Arizona federal court charging that Bridgepoint Education is violating the Telephone Consumer Protection Act by robocalling sales prospects. Similar suits were filed in October in federal court in San Diego and the Northern District of Ohio.[75]
In 2015, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau reported that they were investigating Ashford University related to '"unlawful acts or practices related to the advertising, marketing or origination of private student loans."'[76]
In 2016, Bridgepoint Education received a subpoena from the Securities and Exchange Commission related to the potential joint resolution of investigations by the California Attorney General and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.[77]In 2016, a former senior vice president at Ashford University alleged that Bridgepoint falsified its financial reports by inaccurately projecting the student retention rate.[78] On September 12, 2016, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau fined Bridgepoint Education, the parent company of Ashford University, $31.5 million for deceiving students about the cost of private student loans; $23.5 million is supposed to be for relief and refunds to consumers.[79] In 2016, the Iowa Department of Education notified Ashford that it would discontinue approval for GI Bill benefits after June 30.[80]
In September 2017 the Department of Veterans Affairs accepted the shift in its state-based eligibility for veterans' benefits from Iowa to Arizona, but also stated in a letter that the VA has independent regulatory authority aside from the Arizona State Approving Agency.[25][81][26] In September 2017, the VA gave Ashford approval to enroll GI Bill students indefinitely.[82] Ashford University and its parent company Bridgepoint Education were the subject of an investigation published in The Chronicle of Higher Education. The article included information about Bridgepoint's political moves with Arizona politicians in order to maintain GI Bill funding. [83] In November 2017, the California Attorney General brought a lawsuit against Ashford and its parent company Bridgepoint for engaging in "unlawful marketing, sales and debt collection practices".[84]
In March 2019, Bridgepoint Education reported that it had made unreliable statements about its earnings and losses. [85]The company estimated an operating loss of $13.6-$14 million loss for the quarter ending in December 2018. [86]Ashford University was featured in an NBC News Investigates piece that aired April 14, 2019. One recruiter, Eric Dean alleged that Ashford was targeting veterans with PTSD. [35]
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 05, 2020, 02:14:07 PM
You know, I don't think that there's any argument that, for the most part, these proprietary online schools have been a sham.  But they serve a specific demographic which we all understand.  Why not have this demographic served by us?

I did the Wiki on Purdue Global.  The jury is out, and all of the criticism was leveled before Purdue really had a chance to shape the program----people simply assumed it would be a disaster.  I do not know enough to prognosticate, but we need to give these universities time to transform these awful programs.

There is just something about the way we think of education in our culture.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 05, 2020, 04:35:40 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 05, 2020, 02:14:07 PM
You know, I don't think that there's any argument that, for the most part, these proprietary online schools have been a sham.  But they serve a specific demographic which we all understand.  Why not have this demographic served by us?

I did the Wiki on Purdue Global.  The jury is out, and all of the criticism was leveled before Purdue really had a chance to shape the program----people simply assumed it would be a disaster.  I do not know enough to prognosticate, but we need to give these universities time to transform these awful programs.

There is just something about the way we think of education in our culture.

I can state with 100% certainty that Purdue is not shaping anything about Purdue Global. I'm happy to have a private conversation.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 05, 2020, 05:57:40 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 05, 2020, 02:14:07 PM
You know, I don't think that there's any argument that, for the most part, these proprietary online schools have been a sham.  But they serve a specific demographic which we all understand.  Why not have this demographic served by us?

Because it's very expensive to really serve the demographic well and what the people need has much less to do with college-level education and much more to do with enough stability in their personal lives to focus on anything other than rent and food for this week.

If we really wanted as a society to help the demographic, then we'd invest in good k-12 with the life stability to believe that longer-term investments in education will pay off.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: quasihumanist on August 05, 2020, 06:19:16 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 05, 2020, 02:14:07 PM
You know, I don't think that there's any argument that, for the most part, these proprietary online schools have been a sham.  But they serve a specific demographic which we all understand.  Why not have this demographic served by us?

I think the problem is that almost everyone is delusional about what it takes to serve this demographic.

We're talking about students who have not had 13 years of elementary and secondary education; they have really had 13 years of babysitting.  They may have memorized a bunch of facts, but they're basically 6 to 8 years behind in intellectual development.

Traditionally, what our regional comprehensives have done is given these folks their third middle school education (which is mostly 4-6 more years of babysitting) and called it college.  Is it any wonder that they come into the workforce and can't keep jobs that really require a college education (as opposed to just evidence that they can sit down and do the work)?

Now what it might take to bring someone up to the level of a college grad might be 10 years in classes of 20 students.  Who has the resources for that? Would they even be willing to spend 10 years training their minds?

Sure some of these online providers don't even provide a third middle school education, but is there a difference between not good enough and really not good enough?  If what's really demanded is just evidence of willingness to sit down and do make-work, can't a non-educational online provider do just as well?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 05, 2020, 07:25:26 PM
Regular readers of this thread might be interested in https://www.nbcnews.com/news/education/college-financial-fitness-tracker-n1235337

Funny that MacMurray College that closed this year is listed as having zero of the stress factors.
Wesley has three of four stress factors.
Mills College has zero of four factors.
University of Akron has one stress factor.
University of Arizona has one stress factor.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on August 06, 2020, 05:41:42 AM
Dangit Polly, I was just celebrating that my "perish" school looks fine in Hechinger. (As does MacMurray.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 06, 2020, 06:09:35 AM
Quote from: selecter on August 06, 2020, 05:41:42 AM
Dangit Polly, I was just celebrating that my "perish" school looks fine in Hechinger. (As does MacMurray.)

Yep.  Hechinger's factors are weird because I know that having an endowment that's only 110% of annual expenses is bad.

I know that the important enrollment number is total enrollment, not new student trend or retention.  Super Dinky is listed as having a slight increase in new student enrollment and retention.  However, retaining 100% of ten new students is much worse for the budget than getting 200 new students and retaining 80% of them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 06, 2020, 06:28:31 AM
Quote from: quasihumanist on August 05, 2020, 06:19:16 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 05, 2020, 02:14:07 PM
You know, I don't think that there's any argument that, for the most part, these proprietary online schools have been a sham.  But they serve a specific demographic which we all understand.  Why not have this demographic served by us?

I think the problem is that almost everyone is delusional about what it takes to serve this demographic.

We're talking about students who have not had 13 years of elementary and secondary education; they have really had 13 years of babysitting.  They may have memorized a bunch of facts, but they're basically 6 to 8 years behind in intellectual development.

Traditionally, what our regional comprehensives have done is given these folks their third middle school education (which is mostly 4-6 more years of babysitting) and called it college.  Is it any wonder that they come into the workforce and can't keep jobs that really require a college education (as opposed to just evidence that they can sit down and do the work)?

Now what it might take to bring someone up to the level of a college grad might be 10 years in classes of 20 students.  Who has the resources for that? Would they even be willing to spend 10 years training their minds?

Sure some of these online providers don't even provide a third middle school education, but is there a difference between not good enough and really not good enough?  If what's really demanded is just evidence of willingness to sit down and do make-work, can't a non-educational online provider do just as well?

This may be the wrong thread for the post, but so it goes.

Quasihumanist, that's just BS. I work at a regional comprehensive, and it depends completely upon the major. Our Engineering degrees are ABET accredited, Business AACSB with Accounting students the best in the state, and the  CS and Science departments produce excellent students. Political Science helps students become Fulbright Scholars, Physics has an amazing program, and my department has a top tier Actuarial Science program along with a graduate program that has sent many students on to to finish Ph.D.s

My colleagues in the Humanities and Social Sciences are just outstanding. Our students DO take 4-6 years to graduate, but that is almost completely due to having to work.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 06, 2020, 09:42:47 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on August 06, 2020, 06:28:31 AM
Quote from: quasihumanist on August 05, 2020, 06:19:16 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 05, 2020, 02:14:07 PM
You know, I don't think that there's any argument that, for the most part, these proprietary online schools have been a sham.  But they serve a specific demographic which we all understand.  Why not have this demographic served by us?

I think the problem is that almost everyone is delusional about what it takes to serve this demographic.

We're talking about students who have not had 13 years of elementary and secondary education; they have really had 13 years of babysitting.  They may have memorized a bunch of facts, but they're basically 6 to 8 years behind in intellectual development.

Traditionally, what our regional comprehensives have done is given these folks their third middle school education (which is mostly 4-6 more years of babysitting) and called it college.  Is it any wonder that they come into the workforce and can't keep jobs that really require a college education (as opposed to just evidence that they can sit down and do the work)?

Now what it might take to bring someone up to the level of a college grad might be 10 years in classes of 20 students.  Who has the resources for that? Would they even be willing to spend 10 years training their minds?

Sure some of these online providers don't even provide a third middle school education, but is there a difference between not good enough and really not good enough?  If what's really demanded is just evidence of willingness to sit down and do make-work, can't a non-educational online provider do just as well?

This may be the wrong thread for the post, but so it goes.

Quasihumanist, that's just BS. I work at a regional comprehensive, and it depends completely upon the major. Our Engineering degrees are ABET accredited, Business AACSB with Accounting students the best in the state, and the  CS and Science departments produce excellent students. Political Science helps students become Fulbright Scholars, Physics has an amazing program, and my department has a top tier Actuarial Science program along with a graduate program that has sent many students on to to finish Ph.D.s

My colleagues in the Humanities and Social Sciences are just outstanding. Our students DO take 4-6 years to graduate, but that is almost completely due to having to work.

I was gonna say something along these lines, but I sometimes wonder if there is any point in defending what we do.

Our uni doesn't produce many graduate students compared to other schools of a similar size, but we do educate people who often struggle with exactly the circumstances Quasihumanist describes.  Almost every student works.  Many come from poverty and an all-but-debilitated secondary school system.  But we are not a middle-school-operation.  Many of our students work extremely hard, some only do as much as necessary, but we have a good graduation record and a good record of upward mobility.

If I fault our admin for anything it's lack of transparency (which seems to be standard these days) and an inability to capitalize on the good work we do.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 06, 2020, 11:00:33 AM
What's the drop out rate at your institutions?

What's the admit rate and the stats on the students attending?

I worked at a regional comprehensive with ABET accredited engineering.  Our graduates were indeed good.  However, our program attrition rate was astounding for students coming from certain school districts.

It was really noticeable to be teaching in engineering classes versus general education courses.  The engineering students after the weedout first year courses were fine. 

The general education students had a non-negligible fraction of students who couldn't do problems as hard as we routinely gave the gifted and talented middleschoolers in the summer program.  I was taken quite aback at having to teach people every term how to literally divide 100 by 10 using their calculator.

There are indeed people who are taking middle school for a third time in college and places that cater to that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: quasihumanist on August 06, 2020, 11:18:09 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 06, 2020, 09:42:47 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on August 06, 2020, 06:28:31 AM
Quote from: quasihumanist on August 05, 2020, 06:19:16 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 05, 2020, 02:14:07 PM
You know, I don't think that there's any argument that, for the most part, these proprietary online schools have been a sham.  But they serve a specific demographic which we all understand.  Why not have this demographic served by us?

I think the problem is that almost everyone is delusional about what it takes to serve this demographic.

We're talking about students who have not had 13 years of elementary and secondary education; they have really had 13 years of babysitting.  They may have memorized a bunch of facts, but they're basically 6 to 8 years behind in intellectual development.

Traditionally, what our regional comprehensives have done is given these folks their third middle school education (which is mostly 4-6 more years of babysitting) and called it college.  Is it any wonder that they come into the workforce and can't keep jobs that really require a college education (as opposed to just evidence that they can sit down and do the work)?

Now what it might take to bring someone up to the level of a college grad might be 10 years in classes of 20 students.  Who has the resources for that? Would they even be willing to spend 10 years training their minds?

Sure some of these online providers don't even provide a third middle school education, but is there a difference between not good enough and really not good enough?  If what's really demanded is just evidence of willingness to sit down and do make-work, can't a non-educational online provider do just as well?

This may be the wrong thread for the post, but so it goes.

Quasihumanist, that's just BS. I work at a regional comprehensive, and it depends completely upon the major. Our Engineering degrees are ABET accredited, Business AACSB with Accounting students the best in the state, and the  CS and Science departments produce excellent students. Political Science helps students become Fulbright Scholars, Physics has an amazing program, and my department has a top tier Actuarial Science program along with a graduate program that has sent many students on to to finish Ph.D.s

My colleagues in the Humanities and Social Sciences are just outstanding. Our students DO take 4-6 years to graduate, but that is almost completely due to having to work.

I was gonna say something along these lines, but I sometimes wonder if there is any point in defending what we do.

Our uni doesn't produce many graduate students compared to other schools of a similar size, but we do educate people who often struggle with exactly the circumstances Quasihumanist describes.  Almost every student works.  Many come from poverty and an all-but-debilitated secondary school system.  But we are not a middle-school-operation.  Many of our students work extremely hard, some only do as much as necessary, but we have a good graduation record and a good record of upward mobility.

If I fault our admin for anything it's lack of transparency (which seems to be standard these days) and an inability to capitalize on the good work we do.

I teach at an R2.

I think many of our students work very hard, and the faculty try their best to get students to learn what they can in the time they have.

Right out of college, I did a stint in technology consulting.  Maybe 10% of our graduates could actually keep that kind of job for 6 months.  They just don't have the ability to take in new information by themselves, process it, and draw decent conclusions.  When faced with problems they haven't seen before, they might not freeze, but they can't get anywhere.  If they have 2 days to learn how some new technology works and make sense of it, they can't do it.

I have a friend who was kicked out of a PhD in English, and recently as a side gig she was doing some Internet marketing for some rich guy's vanity poetry project.  She has no marketing training.
You take our marketing majors, and while they would know how to do the standard things that people have used to market shampoo for the last 50 years, I'm sure 95% of them would have no idea where to start on this kind of marketing project.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 06, 2020, 12:52:35 PM
Polly and Quasihumanist: that is precisely why I specified specific majors. Yes, the drop out rate is high, and there is no question that lot of students do take a college curriculum that is sort of kind of middle schoolish. That also happens at many R1s, including many state flagships.

To me that is a giant so what? My point was that in the types of majors I mentioned (as well as others) regional public comprehensives are nothing like middle school. The overlap is with good junior and senior level Honors and AP classes in quality high schools, as it should be.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: quasihumanist on August 06, 2020, 02:14:48 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on August 06, 2020, 12:52:35 PM
Polly and Quasihumanist: that is precisely why I specified specific majors. Yes, the drop out rate is high, and there is no question that lot of students do take a college curriculum that is sort of kind of middle schoolish. That also happens at many R1s, including many state flagships.

To me that is a giant so what? My point was that in the types of majors I mentioned (as well as others) regional public comprehensives are nothing like middle school. The overlap is with good junior and senior level Honors and AP classes in quality high schools, as it should be.

To me, I've never been able to feel comfortable with working at an institution that fails(*) well more than half the people it's supposed to serve.  It's that demotivational poster: FAILURE: When your best is just not good enough.

I also think that ABET and AACSB accreditation just give a floor that's not good enough if most of your students are basically at the floor.  I teach a couple classes in the CS program (I'm a mathematician), and while the graduates know the content they're supposed to, too many of them just don't have the problem solving creativity and imagination needed to work in the field - and they aren't getting there any time soon because their schooling has consistently neglected to develop it for 13 if not 17 years.

(*) Some of the people we fail we fail by giving them degrees.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 06, 2020, 02:50:46 PM
I probably shouldn't say it again, but we are overwhelmed with frustration and negativity.

Maybe it's the people who come here.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 06, 2020, 03:34:23 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 06, 2020, 02:50:46 PM
I probably shouldn't say it again, but we are overwhelmed with frustration and negativity.

Maybe it's the people who come here.

Who are you calling 'we'?  One of my biggest frustrations is being accused of negativity for pointing out facts and the mismatch between stated goals and activities that can't possibly reach the goals.

We, as a society, could do better in public education, but that means looking at the situation and really seeing it instead of focusing on what's easy and is practically no change in what the system is already doing.

If regional comprehensives were already doing well at serving the underserved, then there wouldn't be a market for the diploma mills with bad graduation rates.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 06, 2020, 04:00:09 PM
Quasihumanist: if you are saying half your math and physics majors are "failing" I have to question who your institution is recruiting. I cannot and will not argue that you are wrong about issues with PreK-12 education; I've spent a career trying to help change it. It is like playing Whack-a-Mole. You make a difference (demonstrable in multiple ways), and it either doesn't scale or just dies out as staff moves/retires. It is soul sucking.

To the regional comprehensive statement, again I'll point to my institution's Actuarial and Accounting programs. Our Actuarial students are wonderful, all get jobs, and are passing exams easily. You can't do that with smoke and mirrors. Accounting students exam scores the highest in the state, with the competition including three excellent R1s. Again, not smoke and mirrors.

As to Polly's last comment about regional comprehensives and the market for for profit diploma mills, I call BS again. In my state there are not even remotely the resources to deal with the needs of those students. The for profits don't even really pretend to see those needs. They do have slicker marketing, charge more, have the advantage of many years of lax Federal oversight and actively TARGET those students KNOWING they can't succeed as the coursework is much lower level than any of the regional comprehensives in my state.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 06, 2020, 04:49:04 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 06, 2020, 03:34:23 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 06, 2020, 02:50:46 PM
I probably shouldn't say it again, but we are overwhelmed with frustration and negativity.

Maybe it's the people who come here.

Who are you calling 'we'?  One of my biggest frustrations is being accused of negativity for pointing out facts and the mismatch between stated goals and activities that can't possibly reach the goals.

We, as a society, could do better in public education, but that means looking at the situation and really seeing it instead of focusing on what's easy and is practically no change in what the system is already doing.

If regional comprehensives were already doing well at serving the underserved, then there wouldn't be a market for the diploma mills with bad graduation rates.

Well Polly, not everything you say is a "fact," sometimes the facts are cherry-picked, and you frequently misstate or misquote what other posters have said ("instead of focusing on what's easy and is practically no change in what the system is already doing" sounds like nothing anyone I know has said, including myself).

No need to go into history (or start a flame war) but you are admittedly the "voice of doom," are you not?

You last comment in your quote about is a perfect example.  There are lots of reasons that certain groups are "underserved" by our educational system, public funding being one of them.  There are lots of reasons that the proprietary schools prospered and just failed----one of which is that actual higher ed DOES have standards (see Quasihumanist above) and another of which is the ease of access proprietary ed promised, a business which legitimate colleges are now getting into and which you've already cast aspersion upon. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 06, 2020, 05:02:09 PM
For those who haven't seen it, http://recessionreality.blogspot.com/ has a daily round up of news articles related to colleges experiencing dire financial straits here in the time of covid.


To return to the discussion at hand, the harsh cold truth is reality doesn't care about the exact words. Being unable to teach exactly the same class at an R1 and some other institution is one indication of the gap in student preparation, which is likely to persist through graduation.

Licensure for fields where knowledge matters is one way to ensure that standards are met.  However, there's a huge conflict between letting people try ('you can't know that this particular individual won't pull off the miracle') and filtering for good preparation to have a huge probability of success absent unforeseeable accidents (i.e.,  very low attrition rate).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on August 06, 2020, 05:48:51 PM
Just in case we forgot, there isn't a limit to the number of times you can be kicked in the teeth.

https://dailyfreepress.com/2020/07/25/wheelock-takes-brunt-of-bu-layoffs/

For context, BU recently raised $1.85 Billion for its endowment. I guess they had no choice *but* to cut people first to preserve the institution. <insert deep sarcasm and disgust>

Wheelock was asked by the University to reduce its budget by 15 percent, which approximates to around $2.2 million.

I mean, who can find *that* kind of money! <insert more sarcasm and disgust>

One-third of the budget cuts were allowed to be "one-time" cuts, which may be filled again at a later date, while the remaining two-thirds of cuts must remain permanent.

We always knew this "merger" was a land/building grab and nothing more, but it is especially galling to make it that apparent during a pandemic, as BU sits on a total endowment of $2.3 billion.

http://www.bu.edu/articles/2019/campaign-for-boston-university-faq/

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on August 06, 2020, 06:00:18 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on August 06, 2020, 05:48:51 PM
Just in case we forgot, there isn't a limit to the number of times you can be kicked in the teeth.

https://dailyfreepress.com/2020/07/25/wheelock-takes-brunt-of-bu-layoffs/

For context, BU recently raised $1.85 Billion for its endowment. I guess they had no choice *but* to cut people first to preserve the institution. <insert deep sarcasm and disgust>

Wheelock was asked by the University to reduce its budget by 15 percent, which approximates to around $2.2 million.

I mean, who can find *that* kind of money! <insert more sarcasm and disgust>

One-third of the budget cuts were allowed to be "one-time" cuts, which may be filled again at a later date, while the remaining two-thirds of cuts must remain permanent.

We always knew this "merger" was a land/building grab and nothing more, but it is especially galling to make it that apparent during a pandemic, as BU sits on a total endowment of $2.3 billion.

http://www.bu.edu/articles/2019/campaign-for-boston-university-faq/

Kick-boxing as a form of dental care is a specialty in some places.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 06, 2020, 06:29:13 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 06, 2020, 05:02:09 PM

To return to the discussion at hand, the harsh cold truth is reality doesn't care about the exact words. Being unable to teach exactly the same class at an R1 and some other institution is one indication of the gap in student preparation, which is likely to persist through graduation.

Licensure for fields where knowledge matters is one way to ensure that standards are met.  However, there's a huge conflict between letting people try ('you can't know that this particular individual won't pull off the miracle') and filtering for good preparation to have a huge probability of success absent unforeseeable accidents (i.e.,  very low attrition rate).

Firstly, I'm not sure what you are saying.

Secondly, I can't think of anybody who's said either of these things.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: quasihumanist on August 06, 2020, 06:30:31 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on August 06, 2020, 04:00:09 PM
Quasihumanist: if you are saying half your math and physics majors are "failing" I have to question who your institution is recruiting.

Probably not half, but we have a substantial portion of graduating math majors who still take 2 minutes to process the difference between "All swans are not white." and "Not all swans are white."

Ask a graduating math major to actually come up with a non-trivial proof involving a little manipulation of concepts they understand and 90% of them draw a blank.

Frankly, I don't think we should have graduating math majors who can't get a single point on the Putnam(*), but half the students in the country who take it - and this is a very self-selected group - get a zero.

(*) 12 very nonstandard questions - but most require no more knowledge than first-year calculus and two or three only require high-school knowledge - scored out of 10 each.  6 hours on the first Saturday in December every year.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on August 06, 2020, 07:16:06 PM
Actually seen on a sweatshirt of engineering students, somewhere:

As GPA goes to zero, Major goes to Political Science. :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on August 06, 2020, 07:35:36 PM
Obviously, as I said on the other current thread, we should be trying to fix these legions of problems associated with public k12 ed in this country, but we ain't gonna be able to do so without money, which has to come from somewhere.   Borrowing it would be a cynical solution that passes the buck to our grandchildren, assuming they're not all dead by then.  No, we just have to tax to do it, and those taxes which have to be raised are the taxes of the rich people and corporations that have benefited enormously, and out-sizedly, from the economy in this country for decades, and have during that time been woefully undertaxed.   This is true, whether the Libertarians like it or not. 

Now the problem of what to do about students who come to bad colleges underprepared for college level work is another one, which will continue to at least some extent even if/ after we get our k12 funding and other issues settled.  Sadly, some of the solution to this problem will have to be to tell some students to do other things with their lives rather than go to college, and to create viable life economic options for them to be able to do so.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 06, 2020, 08:00:10 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 06, 2020, 06:29:13 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 06, 2020, 05:02:09 PM

To return to the discussion at hand, the harsh cold truth is reality doesn't care about the exact words. Being unable to teach exactly the same class at an R1 and some other institution is one indication of the gap in student preparation, which is likely to persist through graduation.

Licensure for fields where knowledge matters is one way to ensure that standards are met.  However, there's a huge conflict between letting people try ('you can't know that this particular individual won't pull off the miracle') and filtering for good preparation to have a huge probability of success absent unforeseeable accidents (i.e.,  very low attrition rate).

Firstly, I'm not sure what you are saying.

Secondly, I can't think of anybody who's said either of these things.

I have a long answer that will have to wait until I have time Saturday. 

However, right now I'm reading https://www.chronicle.com/package/broken-ladder-higher-eds-role-in-social-mobility/ and you might want to read those articles as well if you're serious about answering the question of why don't 'we' do more to serve the people who often choose the predatory for-profits.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 06, 2020, 08:42:14 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 06, 2020, 08:00:10 PM
I have a long answer that will have to wait until I have time Saturday. 

Don't bother, Polly.  There's no point.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 07, 2020, 06:16:43 AM
quasihumanist wrote:

I also think that ABET and AACSB accreditation just give a floor that's not good enough if most of your students are basically at the floor.  I teach a couple classes in the CS program (I'm a mathematician), and while the graduates know the content they're supposed to, too many of them just don't have the problem solving creativity and imagination needed to work in the field - and they aren't getting there any time soon because their schooling has consistently neglected to develop it for 13 if not 17 years.

(*) Some of the people we fail we fail by giving them degrees.
[/quote]

I couldn't agree more. To push an analogy, I see a four story building with a basement. AACSB and ABET represent the ceiling of the first story. The first floor and basement are where many of our US Business and Engineering programs are located. The "good" ones are on the third and fourth stories, with even some in the Penthouse.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 07, 2020, 09:54:32 AM
An elegy for Marygrove College (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/education/getting-college-degree-was-their-dream-then-their-school-suddenly-n1235512).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on August 07, 2020, 10:15:13 AM
OK, any employer who needs a programmer will (or should!) test their skills before hiring. I kind of thought that was standard, but maybe things have changed.

That is to say, all of the ABET approval in  the world doesn't matter if :

1. an employer tests them for sufficient skills anyway
2. an employer basically does the opposite: just goes by referrals by friends, and never really tests them, and figures the bad ones will sort out of the business eventually.

I haven't gone by "degrees" because I am assuming we're talking about a fairly uniform group that has 4 year relevant degree, decent if not stunning grades, etc.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on August 07, 2020, 02:47:10 PM
I'm in one of those fields that saw a substantial growth in the number of programs (doubled in the past 20 years) and also has a national board exam before licensure. 

Pass rates in the 70% range are not unusual at these newer schools and a few are in the 60% range. (Artem U is over 90% and is higher than the R01 flagship down the road).

Given what our graduates do for a living, people should be grateful as hell that there is a national board exam and angry as hell at the schools taking money from kids who should never have been there in the first place.  Every busted ass bible college afraid it could not make payroll in the next 5 years opened a school.  The results are now coming clear.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on August 07, 2020, 03:06:42 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on August 07, 2020, 02:47:10 PM
I'm in one of those fields that saw a substantial growth in the number of programs (doubled in the past 20 years) and also has a national board exam before licensure. 

Pass rates in the 70% range are not unusual at these newer schools and a few are in the 60% range. (Artem U is over 90% and is higher than the R01 flagship down the road).

Given what our graduates do for a living, people should be grateful as hell that there is a national board exam and angry as hell at the schools taking money from kids who should never have been there in the first place.  Every busted ass bible college afraid it could not make payroll in the next 5 years opened a school.  The results are now coming clear.

Such exams, [especially if there's more than one :-)], in general, keep accreditation on its toes or even substitute for it. I don't see anything wrong with a 70% or lower pass rate. Many, many individuals are better off.

Difficulty is to know ahead of time who can pass. To some extent, students have to play the odds. 'Twould behoove the national examiners to make clear to students what is needed, so that students can make an informed choice about gambling.

I am so sanguine only where there are exams of such kind.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 07, 2020, 06:04:17 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on August 07, 2020, 10:15:13 AM
OK, any employer who needs a programmer will (or should!) test their skills before hiring. I kind of thought that was standard, but maybe things have changed.

That is to say, all of the ABET approval in  the world doesn't matter if :

1. an employer tests them for sufficient skills anyway
2. an employer basically does the opposite: just goes by referrals by friends, and never really tests them, and figures the bad ones will sort out of the business eventually.

I haven't gone by "degrees" because I am assuming we're talking about a fairly uniform group that has 4 year relevant degree, decent if not stunning grades, etc.

Ruralguy: the ABET and AACSB thing actually is a deal in many hiring decisions, and certainly if a student wants to get a masters at some point. Most Engineering and Business positions for students with these degrees is not the type an employer does any of the sort of testing you describe.  Decisions instead are made based on the degree, type of institution, and of course the individual's merit.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on August 07, 2020, 07:36:09 PM
Quote from: dismalist on August 07, 2020, 03:06:42 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on August 07, 2020, 02:47:10 PM
I'm in one of those fields that saw a substantial growth in the number of programs (doubled in the past 20 years) and also has a national board exam before licensure. 

Pass rates in the 70% range are not unusual at these newer schools and a few are in the 60% range. (Artem U is over 90% and is higher than the R01 flagship down the road).

Given what our graduates do for a living, people should be grateful as hell that there is a national board exam and angry as hell at the schools taking money from kids who should never have been there in the first place.  Every busted ass bible college afraid it could not make payroll in the next 5 years opened a school.  The results are now coming clear.

Such exams, [especially if there's more than one :-)], in general, keep accreditation on its toes or even substitute for it. I don't see anything wrong with a 70% or lower pass rate. Many, many individuals are better off.

Difficulty is to know ahead of time who can pass. To some extent, students have to play the odds. 'Twould behoove the national examiners to make clear to students what is needed, so that students can make an informed choice about gambling.

I am so sanguine only where there are exams of such kind.

Examiners and accreditors get paid a nice fat lump for each student that takes an exam, an annual fat fee from all "accredited" schools and another fat fee to bring an accreditation team to a school, kick the tires, turn over a few rocks, have a nice dinner and fly home.  Once school had a 50% pass rate on the 2019 exam and remains "accredited".

At some level, all this standards and accreditation may serve the public safety.  But at another level, it's just an academic protection racket - "Nice college ya got here.  Be a real shame if sumthin' happened to it."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on August 10, 2020, 08:56:01 AM
Hellenic College and Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology (MA) declares financial exigency. (https://www.thenationalherald.com/community_church_united_states/arthro/hellenic_college_holy_cross_declares_financial_exigency_and_sustainable_restructuring-691815/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on August 10, 2020, 09:09:51 AM
Oh, no.

Very sorry to hear of this.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: waterboy on August 10, 2020, 05:39:16 PM
Word is that the Big 10 will cancel fall sports. That's a lot of lost $$ for those schools as well as the surrounding communities.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on August 11, 2020, 02:32:35 PM
Not truly dire because it's public, but Keene State is cutting faculty positions:

https://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/keene-state-plans-faculty-cuts-as-part-of-right-sizing-effort/article_38c6ad4a-2741-567a-a10a-041962e2bd5b.html (https://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/keene-state-plans-faculty-cuts-as-part-of-right-sizing-effort/article_38c6ad4a-2741-567a-a10a-041962e2bd5b.html).

"The college plans to cut two faculty each in economics and political science, English, and math, according to Treadwell. Programs slated to lose one position each are American studies, art and design, biology, chemistry, history, information studies/library, music, public health, and women's and gender studies."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on August 11, 2020, 08:25:35 PM
Quote from: spork on August 11, 2020, 02:32:35 PM
Not truly dire because it's public, but Keene State is cutting faculty positions:

https://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/keene-state-plans-faculty-cuts-as-part-of-right-sizing-effort/article_38c6ad4a-2741-567a-a10a-041962e2bd5b.html (https://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/keene-state-plans-faculty-cuts-as-part-of-right-sizing-effort/article_38c6ad4a-2741-567a-a10a-041962e2bd5b.html).

"The college plans to cut two faculty each in economics and political science, English, and math, according to Treadwell. Programs slated to lose one position each are American studies, art and design, biology, chemistry, history, information studies/library, music, public health, and women's and gender studies."

Oh, no, again.

I hope the Medieval and Renaissance conference that was re-booked for next spring is able to run....and that both the excellent scholars in charge of it will be safe.....

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: AmLitHist on August 12, 2020, 07:04:05 AM
Quote from: spork on August 11, 2020, 02:32:35 PM
Not truly dire because it's public, but Keene State is cutting faculty positions:

https://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/keene-state-plans-faculty-cuts-as-part-of-right-sizing-effort/article_38c6ad4a-2741-567a-a10a-041962e2bd5b.html (https://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/keene-state-plans-faculty-cuts-as-part-of-right-sizing-effort/article_38c6ad4a-2741-567a-a10a-041962e2bd5b.html).

"The college plans to cut two faculty each in economics and political science, English, and math, according to Treadwell. Programs slated to lose one position each are American studies, art and design, biology, chemistry, history, information studies/library, music, public health, and women's and gender studies."

Keene only has two American Studies faculty to start with (plus an affiliate from women's/gender studies).  They have a decent program for a small school; they also combine ASt with Ed to let people certify as social studies teachers.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on August 12, 2020, 07:31:46 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on August 12, 2020, 07:04:05 AM
Quote from: spork on August 11, 2020, 02:32:35 PM
Not truly dire because it's public, but Keene State is cutting faculty positions:

https://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/keene-state-plans-faculty-cuts-as-part-of-right-sizing-effort/article_38c6ad4a-2741-567a-a10a-041962e2bd5b.html (https://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/keene-state-plans-faculty-cuts-as-part-of-right-sizing-effort/article_38c6ad4a-2741-567a-a10a-041962e2bd5b.html).

"The college plans to cut two faculty each in economics and political science, English, and math, according to Treadwell. Programs slated to lose one position each are American studies, art and design, biology, chemistry, history, information studies/library, music, public health, and women's and gender studies."

Keene only has two American Studies faculty to start with (plus an affiliate from women's/gender studies).  They have a decent program for a small school; they also combine ASt with Ed to let people certify as social studies teachers.

The Keene State History Department webpage lists five tenured faculty and two lecturers. If American Studies is losing 1:2 of its positions, and History is losing 1:7, then you consolidate the two for a single department of 7 people.

I would like my $100,000 consulting fee now.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on August 12, 2020, 08:52:07 PM
Quote

The Keene State History Department webpage lists five tenured faculty and two lecturers. If American Studies is losing 1:2 of its positions, and History is losing 1:7, then you consolidate the two for a single department of 7 people.

I would like my $100,000 consulting fee now.

No can do, unless you are recommending the purchase of a $219,000 multimedia conference table.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 13, 2020, 06:09:50 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 06, 2020, 08:42:14 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 06, 2020, 08:00:10 PM
I have a long answer that will have to wait until I have time Saturday. 

Don't bother, Polly.  There's no point.

You've written some related things on recent threads that are pertinent here, so I'm going to write without references.

1) Why don't we do more to help the underserved?  Well, one reason is so many current faculty aren't positioned to give the necessary help and will lose their jobs. The help that would be most useful is gutting current gen ed as taught by the army of humanities faculty in favor of either a true liberal arts education or a more focused university education like in Europe.  Even the true liberal arts education should remodel to have math through multivariate calculus and the science to use that math.

Really valuing the liberal arts education that includes math would also help transform to a society that values science because of the changes in k-12 education to have students graduate high school ready for Calc I their first semester of college.

2) Why don't we do more to help the underserved?  One reason is the data we have on what's required at the college level to help the motivated, but underprepared people with complicated lives thrive.  Again, ditching the army of adjuncts in favor of spending that money and more on giving more financial aid, purposefully arranging learning communities with very involved mentors including programs designed for a part-time bachelor degrees, and investing in bridge programs that go well beyond one initial orientation. 

The problem usually isn't lack of good faculty; the problem is setting students up for failure at the institutional level due to a mismatch between what the students need to be stable enough to learn and how faculty members are sure college should work.

3) Why don't we do more to help the underserved?  Again, one big source of help would investing in having good k-12 education and stable enough communities so that students can choose to major in anything at the college level.  Many of the underserved are years from being able to do college-level work so a term or two of remediation is just wasting everyone's time.

Helpful at the college-level would be focusing on structured internships, co-ops, and similar experiential learning to provide direct motivation for courses that are a targeted college education.  Again, the general education that's disconnected courses is spending resources unwisely especially for those students who need the professional networking to choose a different life for jobs that will not be advertised.

4) Why don't we do more to help the underserved?  Because, realistically, the changes that would make a difference are expensive and don't directly benefit the faculty members who are currently focused on their academic jobs.

Putting more state money into the neediest communities doesn't pay college faculty.

Changing college curriculum to match the student needs usually means cutting the faculty who were already being less supported on all measures.

I have been in many discussions with faculty regarding admissions.  One extreme is to just let everyone try instead of turning away applicants and having fewer students than we could enroll.  However, without changing the curriculum and meeting the students where they are, the individuals who drop out with student loans and no degree are worse off than they would have been doing something else with that time.

Holding standards in admissions to students who have a good probability of completing their degrees means a combination of offering the majors those students want, attractive campus physically and socially, and having some special good way to stand out as the traditional age cohort declines in absolute numbers.  Again, that's money and usually means cutting the gen ed contingent faculty in favor of the popular majors.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on August 13, 2020, 06:38:21 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 13, 2020, 06:09:50 AM

Really valuing the liberal arts education that includes math would also help transform to a society that values science because of the changes in k-12 education to have students graduate high school ready for Calc I their first semester of college.


This brings up a question of mine for people who say "higher education is not primarily job training". Many have pointed out that a lot of job postings simply require "a" degree as a sieve and how this is basically "credential creep".

However, is it reasonable that a person who spends 4 years and tens (if not more) of thousands of dollars will not be guaranteed to have any identifiable skills  beyond those of a high school graduate?

It seems to me if a middle-of-the-road university graduate does not have any concrete advantage over a bright, hard-working high school graduate then post-secondary education is wildly over-priced and over-sold.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on August 14, 2020, 03:25:37 PM
Off-topic, since Harvard is not in dire straits, but you might find this discussion of their finances intriguing. https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2020/08/harvard-fall-pandemic-uncertainties-costs (https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2020/08/harvard-fall-pandemic-uncertainties-costs)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on August 14, 2020, 04:53:14 PM
Quote from: Vkw10 on August 14, 2020, 03:25:37 PM
Off-topic, since Harvard is not in dire straits, but you might find this discussion of their finances intriguing. https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2020/08/harvard-fall-pandemic-uncertainties-costs (https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2020/08/harvard-fall-pandemic-uncertainties-costs)

It has been said that Harvard is a hedge fund with some teaching and research facilities attached.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 15, 2020, 05:54:41 PM
Three community colleges in New Mexico are merging administrations because "the number of on-campus students from 10 years ago is down 66 percent (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/08/14/new-mexico-state-university-system-plans-leadership-restructuring-three-community)." These are the Alamogordo, Carlsbad and Grants campuses. The system administration has seen this coming, and the decision seems to be going through without the blowback seen in PA and VT. Enrollment at the main campus is up.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 15, 2020, 09:42:26 PM
Related is New Mexico State cutting budget so that faculty are again talking unionization. (https://www.lcsun-news.com/story/news/education/2020/08/13/new-mexico-nmsu-faculty-members-plan-unionize-faculty-cuts-president-john-floros/3365211001/)

The history professor fails to mention that NMSU graduates about 10 new bachelor degrees every year along with about 10 master's degrees.  Per College Scorecard, the new history undergrads make about a thousand dollars more than the median debt at a whopping $19k/year for income. (https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/school/fields/?188030-New-Mexico-State-University-Main-Campus). Yep, that sounds so great compared to the 180 new BSN graduates making a median of $55k, the 120 new criminal justice bachelor degrees making a median of $28k, or the 130 new mechanical engineers making a median of $62k.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 16, 2020, 04:02:27 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 15, 2020, 09:42:26 PM
Related is New Mexico State cutting budget so that faculty are again talking unionization. (https://www.lcsun-news.com/story/news/education/2020/08/13/new-mexico-nmsu-faculty-members-plan-unionize-faculty-cuts-president-john-floros/3365211001/)

The history professor fails to mention that NMSU graduates about 10 new bachelor degrees every year along with about 10 master's degrees.  Per College Scorecard, the new history undergrads make about a thousand dollars more than the median debt at a whopping $19k/year for income. (https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/school/fields/?188030-New-Mexico-State-University-Main-Campus). Yep, that sounds so great compared to the 180 new BSN graduates making a median of $55k, the 120 new criminal justice bachelor degrees making a median of $28k, or the 130 new mechanical engineers making a median of $62k.

The main union organizer admits that he does not understand the institutional finances, but is aware that faculty bring in grants. I suspect that a much deeper understanding to university finances will be needed in orgder to negotiate successfully on behalf of the future faculty union. They are dealing with a university president who thought it was a good idea to say "the best people need to get on the bus'" when talking faculty and staff layoffs. I am sure there are faculty who can seriously outmatch the administrations brilliance.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 16, 2020, 05:33:38 PM
I don't know about faculty brilliance working at NMSU where student enrollment has been declining, cheaper in-state schools exist with better outcomes, and now online is really a thing.

NMSU is an OK school, but it's one of the OK schools I expect to not weather the crisis well on the teaching undergrad side.  They are one of the three research universities in NM (UNM, New Mexico Tech) as an R2, but it's not really a research powerhouse compared to the national labs and other science facilities in the state.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on August 17, 2020, 01:20:09 PM
NMSU is fantastically popular with its undergraduate body and alumni. The university is the cultural hub for the small city of Las Cruces, which itself is a gorgeous place to live and work. Population in the area has been steadily growing for a long time. You don't go to NMSU to take online courses in the basement. You go to NMSU to avail yourselves to a world-class academic enrichment experience at cheap public university prices. If you've visited Las Cruces anytime in the last 20 years, you know what I mean.

But.... NMSU also has a long track record with questionable (if not terrible) senior administrators and political appointees.

And the state of New Mexico has the bizarre tendency to serve as a hiring magnet for disgraced/criminal/sketchy senior staffers. Basically, folks that get fired in other states for incompetence or criminal mischief tend tend to find themselves new employment in New Mexico, often at senior staff positions within its public universities. It's as if the HR departments for the state of New Mexico don't ever bother performing background searches on their applicants. I have remarked on this issue numerous times to one of my colleagues who used to work at NMSU, and he just sighed every time.

Given all I've read in the news about NMSU over the years, I'm much more inclined to believe what NMSU faculty print in the news, over what the latest appointed politi-wonk leader of NMSU prints in the news. And yes, the university should definitely unionize.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 17, 2020, 03:09:53 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 16, 2020, 05:33:38 PM
I don't know about faculty brilliance working at NMSU where student enrollment has been declining, cheaper in-state schools exist with better outcomes, and now online is really a thing.

NMSU is an OK school, but it's one of the OK schools I expect to not weather the crisis well on the teaching undergrad side.  They are one of the three research universities in NM (UNM, New Mexico Tech) as an R2, but it's not really a research powerhouse compared to the national labs and other science facilities in the state.

Perhaps you and Hibush hold quite different opinions as to the brilliance level of the administration?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 17, 2020, 03:15:18 PM
Quote from: Aster on August 17, 2020, 01:20:09 PM
You go to NMSU to avail yourselves to a world-class academic enrichment experience at cheap public university prices.

No...just no.

You go to NMSU because it's close.

You go to NMSU because it's cheap.

You go to NMSU because you don't know what a real university education looks like and it's good enough for government work.

You go to NMSU because it's a good enough degree for the fields where credentials are a thing.

If you really, really want a world-class university education, NMSU does not rank on the list and, for many fields, even UNM as the flagship isn't on the list.

I doubt that a faculty union is really what NMSU needs, especially if it's the humanities folks who are most worried about their jobs.

Las Cruces is not a small town.  It's the second largest city in New Mexico and, at 100k, it's just outside the top 300 most populated cities in the US, just like South Bend, Indiana.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 17, 2020, 03:24:44 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on August 17, 2020, 03:09:53 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 16, 2020, 05:33:38 PM
I don't know about faculty brilliance working at NMSU where student enrollment has been declining, cheaper in-state schools exist with better outcomes, and now online is really a thing.

NMSU is an OK school, but it's one of the OK schools I expect to not weather the crisis well on the teaching undergrad side.  They are one of the three research universities in NM (UNM, New Mexico Tech) as an R2, but it's not really a research powerhouse compared to the national labs and other science facilities in the state.

Perhaps you and Hibush hold quite different opinions as to the brilliance level of the administration?

I suspect that Polly, Aster and I agree that the administrators are world-class dolts, if we were to be charitable. The faculty:administrator-brilliance ratio may be a matter of contention.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: fast_and_bulbous on August 17, 2020, 04:44:22 PM
I hereby declare: All colleges are in dire financial straits.

Now we need a thread: Colleges that once were.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: quasihumanist on August 17, 2020, 11:03:07 PM
Quote from: Hibush on August 17, 2020, 03:24:44 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on August 17, 2020, 03:09:53 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 16, 2020, 05:33:38 PM
I don't know about faculty brilliance working at NMSU where student enrollment has been declining, cheaper in-state schools exist with better outcomes, and now online is really a thing.

NMSU is an OK school, but it's one of the OK schools I expect to not weather the crisis well on the teaching undergrad side.  They are one of the three research universities in NM (UNM, New Mexico Tech) as an R2, but it's not really a research powerhouse compared to the national labs and other science facilities in the state.

Perhaps you and Hibush hold quite different opinions as to the brilliance level of the administration?

I suspect that Polly, Aster and I agree that the administrators are world-class dolts, if we were to be charitable. The faculty:administrator-brilliance ratio may be a matter of contention.

Faculty brilliance is irrelevant.  It is simply impossible to deliver a world-class education with a 17:1 faculty-student ratio, especially when a good deal of the faculty's time needs to be spent on remediation for all the students who aren't really college-ready.  It doesn't matter how brilliant the faculty are.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on August 18, 2020, 04:30:01 AM
Quote from: quasihumanist on August 17, 2020, 11:03:07 PM
Quote from: Hibush on August 17, 2020, 03:24:44 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on August 17, 2020, 03:09:53 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 16, 2020, 05:33:38 PM
I don't know about faculty brilliance working at NMSU where student enrollment has been declining, cheaper in-state schools exist with better outcomes, and now online is really a thing.

NMSU is an OK school, but it's one of the OK schools I expect to not weather the crisis well on the teaching undergrad side.  They are one of the three research universities in NM (UNM, New Mexico Tech) as an R2, but it's not really a research powerhouse compared to the national labs and other science facilities in the state.

Perhaps you and Hibush hold quite different opinions as to the brilliance level of the administration?

I suspect that Polly, Aster and I agree that the administrators are world-class dolts, if we were to be charitable. The faculty:administrator-brilliance ratio may be a matter of contention.

Faculty brilliance is irrelevant.  It is simply impossible to deliver a world-class education with a 17:1 faculty-student ratio, especially when a good deal of the faculty's time needs to be spent on remediation for all the students who aren't really college-ready.  It doesn't matter how brilliant the faculty are.

Did you mean that the other way around? !7 faculty for every student seems like it should allow a lot of fine tuning. (Although, on the other hand, the faculty bickering over how and what to teach could bring the whole system crashing down.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 18, 2020, 05:31:32 AM
The question is how the faculty are distributed.

History was mentioned in the article and I have a vested interest in mechanical engineering.

History doesn't say how many majors on the website, but 14 graduates*4 years is about 60 students.  The website has 8 full-time faculty and 4 'college track' faculty. (https://history.nmsu.edu/people/faculty/)  The gen ed aspects are harder to quantify, but 12 faculty*4 sections/faculty*20 students/section is a max of only 960 students served per semester.  A 4/4 means people aren't doing a lot of research and one would expect majors to be taking more than one history course per term.

The mechanical and aerospace engineering department claims 750 undergrads with 20 faculty members if you count everyone (https://mae.nmsu.edu/).  That's a 38:1 student:faculty ratio.  The bragging on the page is 'small-school education with extensive research' .
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on August 18, 2020, 09:22:57 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 17, 2020, 03:15:18 PM
Quote from: Aster on August 17, 2020, 01:20:09 PM
You go to NMSU to avail yourselves to a world-class academic enrichment experience at cheap public university prices.

No...just no.

You go to NMSU because it's close.

You go to NMSU because it's cheap.

You go to NMSU because you don't know what a real university education looks like and it's good enough for government work.

You go to NMSU because it's a good enough degree for the fields where credentials are a thing.

If you really, really want a world-class university education, NMSU does not rank on the list and, for many fields, even UNM as the flagship isn't on the list.

I doubt that a faculty union is really what NMSU needs, especially if it's the humanities folks who are most worried about their jobs.

Las Cruces is not a small town.  It's the second largest city in New Mexico and, at 100k, it's just outside the top 300 most populated cities in the US, just like South Bend, Indiana.

OMG. I'd recommend reading posts more carefully before dashing off hasty bullet points that dig a new rabbit hole.

I never wrote that Las Cruces is a small town. I wrote that it is a "small city". Which it very much is, barely cracking 100,000 residents.  Las Cruces is very compact, very cutesy, and very photogenic. It has most of the services and amenities found in a city and regional hub, but also a low enough population to not overload or create queues for those amenities and services.

I also never wrote that NMSU provides a world class educational experience. I wrote that NMSU provides a "world class academic enrichment experience". Enrichment experience. Big difference. That would be the *other* major component of the traditional university mission besides the formal educational one.  Enrichment is huge.  Enrichment is front and center of nearly every 4-year university's recruiting and advertising plan. Coffee shops. Parks. Parks for Dogs. Museums. Concert Halls. Theater. Bar Strips. Craft Breweries. Community Gardens. Farmers Markets. IntraMurals. Football. Quidditch. Clubs. Student Government. New dormitories.  Study Abroad. Field Trips. Rec Centers. Climbing walls. Lazy rivers. Actual rivers. Massage clinics. I'll just stop there. I realize that many professors (particularly in STEM) are known raise their noses in effete disdain of these things, and they are free to have those opinions. They just won't be the ones asked to give campus tours.

NMSU's enrichment experience is unusually good compared to most other U.S. R2's (and many R1's). That enrichment makes NMSU unusually popular with its undergraduate body. Amenities and offerings that you normally only get at posh SLAC's or R1's are available at NMSU at much lower tuition pricing. It's also a lot less of a hassle to get into an R2 like NMSU. Only community colleges and for-profit diploma mills are simpler to enroll into.

And referring to NMSU (or any other R2) with statements like  "You go to NMSU because you don't know what a real university education looks like" is both elitish and insulting to the Academy. I am surprised to see a statement like this written on this forum. Much (if not most) of U.S. bachelor's degrees come from universities like NMSU. Regional comprehensive universities most certainly provide a "real university education" and (at the undergraduate level) often will even do it better than the R1's. Regional comprehensives are perfectly fine, their faculty are perfectly fine, and their undergraduate alumni are perfectly fine. Now if one is pursuing advanced graduate-level coursework and degrees, R2's may not be the best fit. But I don't think that anyone's really parsing that particular item.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on August 19, 2020, 10:08:22 AM
Courtesy of Anselm:

Quote from: Anselm on August 19, 2020, 08:55:18 AM
https://www.newsweek.com/michigan-college-requires-students-stay-within-5-miles-campus-face-suspension-tracks-them-app-1525895

Well, at least it will be an interesting case study when this is all over.

Albion has had annual deficits of between $5 million and $9 million every year from FY 2013 through FY 2018 (most recent year available), on total operating expenses that skyrocketed from $76 million to $110 million during the same period. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 19, 2020, 10:28:29 AM
Ah, Aster.  That's a spirited defense that pretty much ignores that while R2s award many college degrees, the education that lets people go on to success is generally the specialized education like nursing, engineering, and k-12 teaching certificates, not the educational enrichment aspects.

All the cultural stuff is part of being in a place more populous than two stop lights and a grocery store.  That's not special to NMSU; that's being a population center big enough to support multiple coffee shops.  It's unclear to me how getting used to those amenities is really a benefit to the 50% of students who leave NMSU without a degree to go back to the small places without those things, but with student debt.

I am an alumna of New Mexico Tech straight from rural Wisconsin in a town too small for two stoplights with zero coffee shops, so the elitist accusation just makes me laugh.  The problem isn't that NMSU is a non-elite institution.  The problem is NMSU is uneven on what it is promising to new students compared to what it can deliver.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 19, 2020, 11:56:36 AM
Platteville has a Mayberry feel to it.  Dubuque has a vista that belies to mediocrity but claims the old Al Capone hotel downtown.  The river is beautiful in La Crosse and Northern cheeseland looks like Middle Earth. 

You have a specific idea of "success."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 25, 2020, 08:58:35 PM
UW Madison is worried: https://www.chicagotribune.com/midwest/ct-uw-madison-financial-crisis-20200812-ntsvfnqtt5dh5glfze3lb6vbx4-story.html

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 19, 2020, 11:56:36 AMYou have a specific idea of "success."

Yes, and many of the people on these fora fail to meet it, unlike my hometown folks who made good choices instead of believing the hype of college educations that don't deliver.

I laugh pretty hard every time I see people with undesirable life outcomes keep insisting that more people should pay good money to be on that same path.  The reset of educational institutions as the pandemic continues will fix many systemic problems.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 26, 2020, 04:34:26 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 25, 2020, 08:58:35 PM
UW Madison is worried: https://www.chicagotribune.com/midwest/ct-uw-madison-financial-crisis-20200812-ntsvfnqtt5dh5glfze3lb6vbx4-story.html

One would expect UW Madison to be one of those flagship schools that is on the better end of the spectrum for many of the things that will pull a school through. However, they have had a governor and legislature that intentionally tried to cut off their ability to educate. Significant budget cuts was part of the picture. Tuition has barely increased. The trifecta is that they are not allowed to borrow to cover a short-term operating deficit.

The legislature made sure that the university has no safety net, so when the trapeze rope is fraying fast and the catcher has gone into quarantine, they can gleefully watch the fatal fall.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 26, 2020, 05:04:54 AM
Quote from: Hibush on August 26, 2020, 04:34:26 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 25, 2020, 08:58:35 PM
UW Madison is worried: https://www.chicagotribune.com/midwest/ct-uw-madison-financial-crisis-20200812-ntsvfnqtt5dh5glfze3lb6vbx4-story.html

One would expect UW Madison to be one of those flagship schools that is on the better end of the spectrum for many of the things that will pull a school through. However, they have had a governor and legislature that intentionally tried to cut off their ability to educate. Significant budget cuts was part of the picture. Tuition has barely increased. The trifecta is that they are not allowed to borrow to cover a short-term operating deficit.

The legislature made sure that the university has no safety net, so when the trapeze rope is fraying fast and the catcher has gone into quarantine, they can gleefully watch the fatal fall.

Yep, I was surprised to see Madison so bad off.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 26, 2020, 06:15:14 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 26, 2020, 05:04:54 AM
Quote from: Hibush on August 26, 2020, 04:34:26 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 25, 2020, 08:58:35 PM
UW Madison is worried: https://www.chicagotribune.com/midwest/ct-uw-madison-financial-crisis-20200812-ntsvfnqtt5dh5glfze3lb6vbx4-story.html

One would expect UW Madison to be one of those flagship schools that is on the better end of the spectrum for many of the things that will pull a school through. However, they have had a governor and legislature that intentionally tried to cut off their ability to educate. Significant budget cuts was part of the picture. Tuition has barely increased. The trifecta is that they are not allowed to borrow to cover a short-term operating deficit.

The legislature made sure that the university has no safety net, so when the trapeze rope is fraying fast and the catcher has gone into quarantine, they can gleefully watch the fatal fall.

Yep, I was surprised to see Madison so bad off.

There is a lot of surprisingly reactionary resentment in Wisconsin, very typical city mouse vs town mouse.  This notice could almost go over in the "privilege" thread.

Wonder how this will affect all the smaller outlaying satellite campuses.

Thanks Scott Walker!  Your economy is gonna hurt if U-Dub takes a dive.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on August 26, 2020, 06:37:07 AM
Surely there would be pretty massive opposition within the state of WI, overall, to the notion of the legislature's allowing financial catastrophe to hit UW-Madison, right?  OTOH, if this is NOT the case, what exactly would that be saying about the average (mostly non-college-educated) Wisconsinite's view about the continued efficacy, and/ or necessity, of having at least a strong *flagship* state univ campus in their state, and how likely would it be that such an attitude would be paralleled in other states?   And, if this is so, what would be the implications of this for the country as a whole?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on August 26, 2020, 07:23:27 AM
If we could get at the, the old forum had many references, over at least 8 years, to the progressive gutting of the WI system.

It's more a surprise to me that they've lasted this long.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on August 26, 2020, 08:15:59 PM
Yes, I get that they have been doing that, but I am wondering why the average Wisconsinite thinks it is acceptable, and if these folks have thought through the implications of so doing?   I have my suspicions, of course, but it would be interesting to know more definitively....
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 26, 2020, 08:30:27 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 26, 2020, 08:15:59 PM
Yes, I get that they have been doing that, but I am wondering why the average Wisconsinite thinks it is acceptable, and if these folks have thought through the implications of so doing?   I have my suspicions, of course, but it would be interesting to know more definitively....

City mouse/country mouse mostly covers it.  Madison is frequently described as 'N square miles surrounded by reality'.

Normal people in Wisconsin are not in favor of anything to do with Madison.  The hospital is viewed positively (well, except in July when the new residents start and medical care is worse for several weeks), but that's about it.  The university is not a positive, unlike other, smaller campuses that serve their regions well in educating teachers, nurses, engineers, and others.

Pretty much everything that non-academics dislike about the out-of-touch ivory tower dwellers is on full display at UW-Madison.  As Wahoo mentioned recently, people like Platteville and La Crosse.  People would pay money to see Madison shut down.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on August 26, 2020, 08:57:22 PM
OK, I get this too.   Like it or not, many ivory tower elite slac/ R1 faculty exist in what may well be described as a parallel universe from the rural Americans you describe.   I of course get my dear alma mater's alumni mag, which is essentially a house organ for the school, and some of the commentary and *described matter-of-factly as -everyone-knows-and-believes-this reality content astounds and often dismays me, and I ain't really all that similar to those rural middle Americans, even though I be an evangelical.   That said, however, Madison brings a lot to the state too, probably, taken as a whole, at least as much as those small regional state colleges that train the local ps teachers and lawyers-- do people not realize this, or is there hatred for the cultural stuff associated with Madison (and places like this in other states) so strong that they would ignore it?   Moreover, well, I suspect that another part of this problem is that, like it or not (and exactly counterintuitively to what one might expect in a time where having a college degree is so much more important to middle class status than ever before) the notion of sending one's kids to college, let alone helping them paying for it, AND the notion that a college ed is a good thing, has become pretty less popular, and often actively opposed, by many of these sorts of people, esp the older Fox news-type crowd.  I do not exactly know why this is, nor what to do about it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 26, 2020, 09:10:21 PM
Success breeds resentment. 
Excellence breeds resentment. 
Difference breeds resentment.
The perception that some people have it better'n you even though you're the one working really hard breeds resentment.

We are a paradoxical people.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 26, 2020, 09:26:43 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 26, 2020, 08:57:22 PM
. That said, however, Madison brings a lot to the state too, probably, taken as a whole, at least as much as those small regional state colleges that train the local ps teachers and lawyers-- do people not realize this, or is there hatred for the cultural stuff associated with Madison (and places like this in other states) so strong that they would ignore it?   

Name five things that Madison brings to the state that are valued by the small farm communities.

I'll wait. 

I grew up near Madison and spent some time in grad school at UW-Madison.  In the big picture, having more scientists, engineers, and creative people (writers, directors, actors, musicians) are a net boon to society that provide things to make life easier and better.  However, it's really not clear that UW-Madison is the main driver of those good things in the state of Wisconsin or the nation.

It is clear that UW-Madison and the related community directly act against the best interests of the rural folks in many ways, especially by influencing the state government discussions to prioritize urban needs.  The continued protests on matters that are so disconnected from the priorities of the small towns don't help at all and divert resources/attention from the rural needs.

Having students focus on trivialities of diversity like pronouns or capitalizing specific identity words when there are real problems that just need volunteers is a recurring slap in the face.

The disconnect between what is claimed as the value of a college education and what students who come from very modest backgrounds get leads to a very bitter mindset against what many of the faculty at Madison promote.

Most people wouldn't be nearly as bitter about Madison if Madison were viewed as being mostly valuable STEM/medical like MIT or Caltech.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 26, 2020, 10:03:41 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 26, 2020, 09:26:43 PM
Name five things that Madison brings to the state that are valued by the small farm communities.

<snip>

it's really not clear that UW-Madison is the main driver of those good things in the state of Wisconsin or the nation.

<snip>

Having students focus on trivialities of diversity like pronouns or capitalizing specific identity words when there are real problems that just need volunteers is a recurring slap in the face.

<snip>

The disconnect between what is claimed as the value of a college education and what students who come from very modest backgrounds get leads to a very bitter mindset against what many of the faculty at Madison promote.

Most people wouldn't be nearly as bitter about Madison if Madison were viewed as being mostly valuable STEM/medical like MIT or Caltech.

In a way it's good that you are simply letting the anger out, Polly.  No more pretenses.

I'm not an alumni of UW-M nor did I work at that campus.  But I know a bit about Wisconsin, its farm communities, and its higher education landscape.  I spent a fair amount of time there during the era of the failed Scott Walker recall before the whole country got a look at what a nut-job that guy is.  Elected by, I am sorry to say, the normal people of WI. 

I was never that big a fan of the city of Madison.  It is a unique landscape, but otherwise it is kind of a small, Midwesty, watered-down version of much cooler cities elsewhere.  And if one thinks Madison is an artsy-fartsy Bohemian "liberal" bastion or some such, boy howdy, get to a coast, look around for a while.  Many of the students I dealt with would not consider attending the UW-M even if they could have gotten in: after growing up in one of the many quaint little hamlets dotting cow country, Madison intimidated them.  These folks were literally scared of 'the big city.'  This is neither good nor bad, just context.

I do not want to denigrate the work of the small, outlaying satellite campuses.  They're very important and worthwhile, but they are not the same caliber as the mighty flagship-----not in terms of students, facilities, or faculty.  I've never seen so many "awards" given to people who, essentially, graduated and then held a job for a while. Obviously I don't want to get too specific since we all value the anonymity of the Fora, but I've seen it first hand in a number of ways.  I will say that I made use of the marvelous UW-M library on more than one occasion.

And, long before I had any idea I'd end up in the upper Midwest for a time, my family was the beneficiary of medical technology generated by the UW-M.  Specifically, literally, the doctor said to us, "There is this new treatment of the University of Wisconsin-Madison..."  And it was miraculous.  One of my immediate family owed hu's life to UW-M research. 

FWEIW, I grew up among country/town mice, some of whom aimed to become full-fledged country mice, some wanted to stay town mice, and some aspired to be city mice.  Wisconsin was not a shock to my system at all.

I think these are probably things most of us know and probably belongs on the privilege thread anyway. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on August 27, 2020, 08:40:41 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 26, 2020, 08:15:59 PM
Yes, I get that they have been doing that, but I am wondering why the average Wisconsinite thinks it is acceptable, and if these folks have thought through the implications of so doing?   I have my suspicions, of course, but it would be interesting to know more definitively....

If the state flagship at Madison has indeed made little effort to build bridges with the state's rural communities, then polly may have a point there.  Kind of like a former school superintendent in our town.  She was active in professional associations, respected by her colleagues in other districts, and even won a couple of honors.  But in the midst of all that she was seldom available to meet with her local constituents.  Morale went down badly in the schools, the superintendent got on the wrong side of the school board, and she ended up being asked to leave.  I've often wondered whether some more care to make herself available to local parents and students wouldn't have helped the situation a lot.

I also wonder whether perhaps many voters in Wisconsin have supported the defunding of the university not because they have any particular hatred of higher education, but simply because they've been told that the university system had all kinds of waste and fat to cut and could be largely defunded without hurting anything truly essential.  So many voters just have no earthly idea what it costs to provide public services.  They may be about to learn that the wolf really was at the university's door.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 27, 2020, 09:12:39 AM
Quote from: apl68 on August 27, 2020, 08:40:41 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 26, 2020, 08:15:59 PM
Yes, I get that they have been doing that, but I am wondering why the average Wisconsinite thinks it is acceptable, and if these folks have thought through the implications of so doing?   I have my suspicions, of course, but it would be interesting to know more definitively....

If the state flagship at Madison has indeed made little effort to build bridges with the state's rural communities, then polly may have a point there.

The campus has done much outreach.  And UW-M must accept a percentage of students from each part of the state so that Madison does not dominate the student body.

And frankly, having lived there, I never saw any great animosity toward UW-M, at least not among the younger generations.  The story of defunding is much more complicated than that and begins with Gov. Jim Doyle, Scott Walker's predecessor, who overspent and accumulated a tremendous deficit.  Walker (who had a pretty interesting trip through Marquette U.) took the reigns, rejected money from Obama because he was a Democrat, spent money on widening the highways because he thought it would be good for business, killed collective bargaining for all state employees, and generally did what conservatives do these days and stoked the culture wars for political gain.

Agronomy, biochem, engineering, teaching, medicine and big school sports all help the farming communities.

Quote from: apl68 on August 27, 2020, 08:40:41 AM
I also wonder whether perhaps many voters in Wisconsin have supported the defunding of the university not because they have any particular hatred of higher education, but simply because they've been told that the university system had all kinds of waste and fat to cut and could be largely defunded without hurting anything truly essential.  So many voters just have no earthly idea what it costs to provide public services.  They may be about to learn that the wolf really was at the university's door.

This is always the argument.  Some truth, of course, because we are imperfect.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 27, 2020, 09:20:39 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 26, 2020, 09:26:43 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 26, 2020, 08:57:22 PM
. That said, however, Madison brings a lot to the state too, probably, taken as a whole, at least as much as those small regional state colleges that train the local ps teachers and lawyers-- do people not realize this, or is there hatred for the cultural stuff associated with Madison (and places like this in other states) so strong that they would ignore it?   

Name five things that Madison brings to the state that are valued by the small farm communities.

I'll wait. 


Why do you choose to do this? I could just as easily ask you to name five things that small farm communities bring to Madison.

It doesn't matter that you grew up near there. The same thing is true in virtually every state with universities and rural populations.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on August 27, 2020, 02:41:24 PM
In the midwestern state I'm from, and in my small town in it, they're very proud of the state universities. There are two big ones, and the only controversy is which one is a superb institution and which one is a craven imposter that deserves never to win at sports. But whichever one they're for, which generally means the one either they or a relative attended, they're very much for it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on August 27, 2020, 03:19:07 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 26, 2020, 09:26:43 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 26, 2020, 08:57:22 PM
. That said, however, Madison brings a lot to the state too, probably, taken as a whole, at least as much as those small regional state colleges that train the local ps teachers and lawyers-- do people not realize this, or is there hatred for the cultural stuff associated with Madison (and places like this in other states) so strong that they would ignore it?   

Name five things that Madison  pretty much any uni you can name brings to the state that are valued by the small farm communities.

I'll wait. 


I don't disagree that the identity politics so common on some campuses are enough to drive most sane people to drink.  But.......

Part of the value any university brings to a rural community is the concept that there is something else out there besides an overly developed interest in the price of soybeans.  If nothing else, they provide a way OUT.  Which, of course, is why so many small towners loathe such institutions - they provide a means for the local youth to "git beyond yer raisin' "

I have 2 colleagues who grew up in those kinds of settings.  When the first was preparing to depart for the SLAC he attended as an undergrad, his pastor told him, "Now, they're gonna tell you to keep an open mind.  Don't you do it son.  Your brain may fall out."  The second told her high school friends what she was planning (not just college, but out of state) and was told, "You must really hate your family if you want to do that."

The thing some parents hate more than anything else is the thought that their kids want a world bigger than the small town they were born in.

God bless my parents - I grew up in a cow town, but they never resented the fact that I was going to leave home and see what was out there.  I ended up back in another cow town, but the journey in between was wonderful.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 27, 2020, 06:39:59 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 26, 2020, 09:26:43 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 26, 2020, 08:57:22 PM
. That said, however, Madison brings a lot to the state too, probably, taken as a whole, at least as much as those small regional state colleges that train the local ps teachers and lawyers-- do people not realize this, or is there hatred for the cultural stuff associated with Madison (and places like this in other states) so strong that they would ignore it?   

Name five things that Madison brings to the state that are valued by the small farm communities.


The "Wisconsin Idea (https://www.wisc.edu/wisconsin-idea/)", that the university serve the larger society has been a great example to other states. Research and extension at Wisconsin means that Wisconsin still has dairies. There is a certain amount of rural identity tied to those in Wisconsin. A lot of the dairy folks are aware of that and depend on that resource regularly. Ditto for the rest of agriculture, which will be a lot more than five things valued by small farm communities.

The economy in those small towns depend on a lot more than agriculture, but those pursuits also lack the R&D to thrive on their own. UW has people on the ground there in economic development and technology to enable those enterprises to work. They also provide the bulk of nutrition education beyond the trivial amount taught in high-school, which makes Wisconsinites a bit healthier than they'd be otherwise.

Rural Wisconsin depends on UW Madison for a lot, far more than they probably realize.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 27, 2020, 07:53:08 PM
Quote from: Hibush on August 27, 2020, 06:39:59 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 26, 2020, 09:26:43 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 26, 2020, 08:57:22 PM
. That said, however, Madison brings a lot to the state too, probably, taken as a whole, at least as much as those small regional state colleges that train the local ps teachers and lawyers-- do people not realize this, or is there hatred for the cultural stuff associated with Madison (and places like this in other states) so strong that they would ignore it?   

Name five things that Madison brings to the state that are valued by the small farm communities.


The "Wisconsin Idea (https://www.wisc.edu/wisconsin-idea/)", that the university serve the larger society has been a great example to other states. Research and extension at Wisconsin means that Wisconsin still has dairies. There is a certain amount of rural identity tied to those in Wisconsin. A lot of the dairy folks are aware of that and depend on that resource regularly. Ditto for the rest of agriculture, which will be a lot more than five things valued by small farm communities.

The economy in those small towns depend on a lot more than agriculture, but those pursuits also lack the R&D to thrive on their own. UW has people on the ground there in economic development and technology to enable those enterprises to work. They also provide the bulk of nutrition education beyond the trivial amount taught in high-school, which makes Wisconsinites a bit healthier than they'd be otherwise.

Rural Wisconsin depends on UW Madison for a lot, far more than they probably realize.
I will give you the extension services for agriculture etc,, but it's not generally the Madison faculty doing their faculty thing who are the useful part; it's the extension agents in the community who matter.

I'd never heard of The Wisconsin Idea until long after I had left Wisconsin.  If that's really the goal, then their PR needs a lot of work compared to the stupidity for which UW regularly makes The Wisconsin State Journal.

So that's one thing.  What are the other four?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 27, 2020, 08:05:11 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 27, 2020, 07:53:08 PM
I'd never heard of The Wisconsin Idea until long after I had left Wisconsin.  If that's really the goal, then their PR needs a lot of work compared to the stupidity for which UW regularly makes The Wisconsin State Journal.

So that's one thing.  What are the other four?

Remember the dangers of relying on anecdata.

I think I already provided you at least five.  Not to mention that a lot of your farm kids are gonna end up at UW-M if they are in the top of their classes.  Many will absolutely love it and their parents will be plenty proud. 

You certainly can't think, Polly, that everyone in Wisconsin has your attitude, farm community or not.  That would be insane.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on August 28, 2020, 03:31:44 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 27, 2020, 07:53:08 PM
Quote from: Hibush on August 27, 2020, 06:39:59 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 26, 2020, 09:26:43 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 26, 2020, 08:57:22 PM
. That said, however, Madison brings a lot to the state too, probably, taken as a whole, at least as much as those small regional state colleges that train the local ps teachers and lawyers-- do people not realize this, or is there hatred for the cultural stuff associated with Madison (and places like this in other states) so strong that they would ignore it?   

Name five things that Madison brings to the state that are valued by the small farm communities.


The "Wisconsin Idea (https://www.wisc.edu/wisconsin-idea/)", that the university serve the larger society has been a great example to other states. Research and extension at Wisconsin means that Wisconsin still has dairies. There is a certain amount of rural identity tied to those in Wisconsin. A lot of the dairy folks are aware of that and depend on that resource regularly. Ditto for the rest of agriculture, which will be a lot more than five things valued by small farm communities.

The economy in those small towns depend on a lot more than agriculture, but those pursuits also lack the R&D to thrive on their own. UW has people on the ground there in economic development and technology to enable those enterprises to work. They also provide the bulk of nutrition education beyond the trivial amount taught in high-school, which makes Wisconsinites a bit healthier than they'd be otherwise.

Rural Wisconsin depends on UW Madison for a lot, far more than they probably realize.
I will give you the extension services for agriculture etc,, but it's not generally the Madison faculty doing their faculty thing who are the useful part; it's the extension agents in the community who matter.

I'd never heard of The Wisconsin Idea until long after I had left Wisconsin.  If that's really the goal, then their PR needs a lot of work compared to the stupidity for which UW regularly makes The Wisconsin State Journal.

So that's one thing.  What are the other four?



Polly_mer you named six things in another thread:

Quote from: polly_mer on August 27, 2020, 08:45:47 PM
What dog do you think I have in this fight?  I'm against most of what UW-Madison does and you want me to defend similar administrative tech stuff for your university? 

OK, but only because I've spent this week on recruiting for my current employer.

1) The family farm has transformed via technology to the point that two people can really make it run.  The collaboration spaces and civic engagement spaces, especially those bring together people from a broad region, allow rapid exchange of ideas to the people who need them. College degree programs don't keep up with technology changes and relying on what  Dad did twenty years ago is the fast way to go broke and often get hit with environmental charges.  Supporting a new community of practice is a much more valuable service than classes that would be recognizable to Grandad.

2) The technology incubators are a way to let new people try out things in the world instead of the classroom.  The industries don't exist yet to hire anyone, but incubators bring together the resources and the hard-working intellects to add to brand-new human knowledge in areas that are rapidly expanding.  The young adults from the dying rural areas can participate in building a future that could save the rural areas by making more choices available through technology.  Yes, that means we may 'lose' a generation of young people as they live elsewhere, but we may gain much more than we lose ten to fifteen years from now when many more jobs can be done from 'anywhere'.

3) The new buildings are more energy efficient, ADA compliant, use newer materials and methods, and are physically safer.  Having more people have access to the meeting places with the power brokers helps everyone.  The rural folks can then send a wider variety of representatives from the community instead of the same people who are always the representatives. Better energy efficiency helps make prices lower for the far flung people who have to invest more heavily in transportation to do anything.  New building methods/materials being tried by people with the money to redo, delay, redo, and retry means the methods become more common and cheaper during the rarer cases of getting to build new in the rural community.

4) Having sufficient people to wrangle the large bureaucracy means the rural communities can get experienced administrators as the good folks opt for a simpler life.  Don't underestimate the value of a great administrator who can promote processes and written consistent policies, especially with office technology.  The modernization in a small place can be very rapid when the lack was knowledge of tools that have become dirt cheap...in large part because of those big bureaucracies elsewhere that have been investing in the office tools for two decades.

5) Assessment innovation programs coupled with the public-private partnerships lets someone else do the expensive trial and error phase.  However, if anything of value comes from the efforts, then the rural folks can join during the expansion phase for much less money and other investment.  The rural areas are dying and need new ideas.  Spreading the cost by having entities that acquire their own funds with some tax money spent is a far better technique than every small rural town doing the experiments on their own with direct, much smaller funding.

6) Big science as done in centers that bring together researchers with various disciplines to work on the big problems together as teams of experts who also mentors some newcomers is how the big problems will be ameliorated.  The single PI atop a pyramid of novices still in training is a terrible model for addressing the important societal problems that are most pressing to the rural folks.  Anyone who cares about actually addressing climate concerns should applaud a center that has many experts and sufficient resources to have regular communication channels to the decision makers.  You don't send the scientists to the government once in a while; you need the glad-handing, relationship builders who can lay the foundation and educate in the necessary terms to be ready with the new funding and laws as necessary.

If one really buys into the idea of the university of serving the people of the state, the most service to the state is outside of the classroom or individual faculty members with their small focused research groups
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: fast_and_bulbous on August 29, 2020, 11:51:04 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 26, 2020, 06:15:14 AM
Thanks Scott Walker!  Your economy is gonna hurt if U-Dub takes a dive.
We don't call it U-Dub. That's University of Washington.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Stockmann on August 29, 2020, 12:17:26 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on August 27, 2020, 03:19:07 PM

Part of the value any university brings to a rural community is the concept that there is something else out there besides an overly developed interest in the price of soybeans.  If nothing else, they provide a way OUT.  Which, of course, is why so many small towners loathe such institutions - they provide a means for the local youth to "git beyond yer raisin' "

I have 2 colleagues who grew up in those kinds of settings.  When the first was preparing to depart for the SLAC he attended as an undergrad, his pastor told him, "Now, they're gonna tell you to keep an open mind.  Don't you do it son.  Your brain may fall out."  The second told her high school friends what she was planning (not just college, but out of state) and was told, "You must really hate your family if you want to do that."

The thing some parents hate more than anything else is the thought that their kids want a world bigger than the small town they were born in...

Yep. Of course small town authority figures are bound to hate big cities - if people leave, they lose any hold over them, esp. as big city anonymity offers a chance at re-inventing oneself, not to mention a livelihood small town bigshots have no power over. If those bigshots are bigshots because of family connections or because they were the popular kids in HS, that's all the more reason for them to hate the big city, as they'd be nobodies there. Plus, people who are unsatisfied with their lives in a small town, perhaps they envy those who got away (the crab pot mentality), or those who got away make them look bad, as a reminder there may be opportunities elsewhere they're not pursuing (I rather suspect hostility towards immigrants among certain folks has similar motivations). Let me guess: dying small towns are the worst for this, because everyone still there is either a local bigshot who'd be a nobody in a city or is pretty unsatisfied.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on August 29, 2020, 12:46:31 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on August 29, 2020, 12:17:26 PM

Plus, people who are unsatisfied with their lives in a small town, perhaps they envy those who got away (the crab pot mentality), or those who got away make them look bad, as a reminder there may be opportunities elsewhere they're not pursuing (I rather suspect hostility towards immigrants among certain folks has similar motivations). Let me guess: dying small towns are the worst for this, because everyone still there is either a local bigshot who'd be a nobody in a city or is pretty unsatisfied.

This is really disparaging of people in small towns. We have vacation property near a small town. The people there are as friendly and accepting as in the city. There are immigrants running some of the businesses in town, and I've never seen any customer say or do anything inappropriate towards any of them*. I grew up in a small town myself, as did both of my parents. That kind of urban hostility helps to keep voting patterns split along rural/urban lines.

(*or towards any of my non-white family members)

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Stockmann on August 29, 2020, 01:21:34 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on August 29, 2020, 12:46:31 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on August 29, 2020, 12:17:26 PM

Plus, people who are unsatisfied with their lives in a small town, perhaps they envy those who got away (the crab pot mentality), or those who got away make them look bad, as a reminder there may be opportunities elsewhere they're not pursuing (I rather suspect hostility towards immigrants among certain folks has similar motivations). Let me guess: dying small towns are the worst for this, because everyone still there is either a local bigshot who'd be a nobody in a city or is pretty unsatisfied.

This is really disparaging of people in small towns. We have vacation property near a small town. The people there are as friendly and accepting as in the city. There are immigrants running some of the businesses in town, and I've never seen any customer say or do anything inappropriate towards any of them*. I grew up in a small town myself, as did both of my parents. That kind of urban hostility helps to keep voting patterns split along rural/urban lines.

(*or towards any of my non-white family members)

Nah, it's just disparaging of small town folks who loathe the cities, not of everyone who lives in or is from a small town. I also didn't say that people who hate immigrants because they make them look bad are necessarily from small towns, nor that everyone in small towns hates immigrants.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 29, 2020, 08:59:57 PM
Quote from: fast_and_bulbous on August 29, 2020, 11:51:04 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 26, 2020, 06:15:14 AM
Thanks Scott Walker!  Your economy is gonna hurt if U-Dub takes a dive.
We don't call it U-Dub. That's University of Washington.

D'oh!  Sorry.  I knew that.  I think I heard Madison referred to as U-Dub-Madison somewhere. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 30, 2020, 05:36:39 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 29, 2020, 08:59:57 PM
Quote from: fast_and_bulbous on August 29, 2020, 11:51:04 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 26, 2020, 06:15:14 AM
Thanks Scott Walker!  Your economy is gonna hurt if U-Dub takes a dive.
We don't call it U-Dub. That's University of Washington.

D'oh!  Sorry.  I knew that.  I think I heard Madison referred to as U-Dub-Madison somewhere.

In Pullman, perhaps?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 30, 2020, 05:41:01 PM
Quote from: Hibush on August 30, 2020, 05:36:39 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 29, 2020, 08:59:57 PM
Quote from: fast_and_bulbous on August 29, 2020, 11:51:04 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 26, 2020, 06:15:14 AM
Thanks Scott Walker!  Your economy is gonna hurt if U-Dub takes a dive.
We don't call it U-Dub. That's University of Washington.

D'oh!  Sorry.  I knew that.  I think I heard Madison referred to as U-Dub-Madison somewhere.

In Pullman, perhaps?

Never been there.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on August 31, 2020, 12:15:52 PM
[https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2020/08/adrian-college-to-eliminate-humanities-departments-faculty-jobs.html]Adrian College[/url], in Michigan, is cutting history, theatre and religion (since when do those two go together?!), philosophy, and leadership departments. (That's apparently three departments, so something screwy is happening with conjunctions and commas in the reporting.) Looking to eliminate 22 faculty jobs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on August 31, 2020, 05:07:24 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on August 31, 2020, 12:15:52 PM
[https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2020/08/adrian-college-to-eliminate-humanities-departments-faculty-jobs.html]Adrian College[/url], in Michigan, is cutting history, theatre and religion (since when do those two go together?!), philosophy, and leadership departments. (That's apparently three departments, so something screwy is happening with conjunctions and commas in the reporting.) Looking to eliminate 22 faculty jobs.

Philosophy, religion and leadership is one department. It has five faculty.
http://adrian.edu/academics/academic-departments/philosophy-religion/ (http://adrian.edu/academics/academic-departments/philosophy-religion/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Golazo on August 31, 2020, 10:08:15 PM
How long till this piece of self-congratulation gets taken down:   http://adrian.edu/about-us/from-the-president/crisisinhighereducation/
Quote
"The miracle that Docking and his colleagues have worked is not about fairy dust but an all-too-rare blend of crafting strategic priorities based on a deep understanding of contemporary college student interests, persuading the entire campus community to buy into the vision, and staying the course with uncommon courage and wisdom."
Or was it all a shell game?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 01, 2020, 03:39:07 AM
Adrian had positive net revenue through FY 2018, but its undergraduate FTE declined by ~ 20% from FY 2007 to FY 2018. My guess is that enrollment continued to drop and someone realized that the college had far too many faculty given the number of students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Golazo on September 03, 2020, 08:48:28 AM
Now apparently the cuts at Adrian are being rescinded: https://www.mlive.com/news/jackson/2020/09/passionate-feedback-prompts-adrian-college-president-to-reverse-cuts-to-humanities-departments.html

Eliminating departments is never great but now it sounds like things will be completely poisoned.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on September 03, 2020, 10:30:37 AM
It's just... you'd think some minimal planning and consultation would take place before a decision like that gets made, so that you wouldn't have to reverse course once you realize that you can't call yourself a liberal arts university without any liberal arts subjects.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 03, 2020, 11:00:19 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 03, 2020, 10:30:37 AM
It's just... you'd think some minimal planning and consultation would take place before a decision like that gets made, so that you wouldn't have to reverse course once you realize that you can't call yourself a liberal arts university without any liberal arts subjects.

Not directed at you -- I wish people, especially an institution's own faculty and administrators, would stop using this terminology because it isn't supported by evidence. According to IPEDS, Adrian awarded 319 bachelor's degrees in FY 2019. Of these, the top majors:
That's 218 graduates or 68% from just seven occupational training programs (there are others I didn't include). In comparison:
Adrian is yet another one of those low-enrollment schools that was founded as a church-affiliated institution for theological training that now relies on, I assume, attracting mediocre students to a mediocre business program. It probably hasn't been a "liberal arts college" for the last 75 years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on September 03, 2020, 11:21:40 AM
Quote from: spork on September 03, 2020, 11:00:19 AM
Adrian is yet another one of those low-enrollment schools that was founded as a church-affiliated institution for theological training that now relies on, I assume, attracting mediocre students to a mediocre business program. It probably hasn't been a "liberal arts college" for the last 75 years.

Many of these colleges were never LACs.  Somehow, 'LAC' == 'good' got into the PR rotation, so that's the trite phrase bandied about while completely ignoring the reality or the new missions that might have saved these institutions had they pivoted five years ago.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on September 03, 2020, 01:00:33 PM
Quote from: spork on September 03, 2020, 11:00:19 AM

Not directed at you -- I wish people, especially an institution's own faculty and administrators, would stop using this terminology because it isn't supported by evidence.

FWIW, I agree: an institution's branding should reflect its reality or its aspirations.

I don't think numbers of majors is necessarily a good metric (but, hey, you need something), especially when we're comparing applied subjects with clearly-defined career paths to discovery majors. So, I'd be perfectly fine with an institution calling itself a LAC but haviing few majors in the liberal arts, so long as a significant chunk of the students there actually obtain a liberal arts education (through distribution requirements, minors, etc.). But to do that you have to buy into your own branding and invest in developing the liberal arts.

(And I have no doubt that Adrian's not doing any of that! It looks like a textbook case of trying to have it both ways and ending up with nothing much.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 03, 2020, 01:26:29 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 03, 2020, 01:00:33 PM
Quote from: spork on September 03, 2020, 11:00:19 AM

Not directed at you -- I wish people, especially an institution's own faculty and administrators, would stop using this terminology because it isn't supported by evidence.

FWIW, I agree: an institution's branding should reflect its reality or its aspirations.

I don't think numbers of majors is necessarily a good metric (but, hey, you need something), especially when we're comparing applied subjects with clearly-defined career paths to discovery majors. So, I'd be perfectly fine with an instition calling itself a LAC but haviing few majors in the liberal arts, so long as a significant chunk of the students there actually obtain a liberal arts education (through distribution requirements, minors, etc.). But to do that you have to buy into your own branding and invest in developing the liberal arts.

(And I have no doubt that Adrian's not doing any of that! It looks like a textbook case of trying to have it both ways and ending up with nothing much.)

In all my years of teaching university students, I've never had any of them say they chose to enroll because of the liberal arts gen ed requirements. I'm guessing it's the same at Adrian College.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on September 03, 2020, 06:14:39 PM
Quote from: spork on September 03, 2020, 01:26:29 PM
In all my years of teaching university students, I've never had any of them say they chose to enroll because of the liberal arts gen ed requirements. I'm guessing it's the same at Adrian College.

I was present in a program review meeting where a humanities professor point blank asked the recent alum on the committee about why the alum had chosen Super Dinky and the response was 'the mandatory liberal arts gen ed sequence'.

That particular sequence was on the chopping block because so many good students left to complete their major somewhere with a more flexible general education program.

We had many students reject their admissions offer when they looked at the suggested 4-year plan and realized that, by design, they would still be taking gen eds their senior year, unlike the same major at comparable regional institutions. 

Yes, some people want a liberal arts education.  Some people, though, want a college education in a broad field that actually prepares them for a career instead of still needing more education after college.  A non-negligible fraction of associate degrees and one-year CC certificates go to people who already have a bachelor's degree and found that insufficient.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on September 03, 2020, 07:22:31 PM
You know, I definitely chose my undergrad education because of its core curriculum. So did many of that college's alums.

But does that translate into anything relevant for grads of my current much less competitive SLAC?  Eh, a little. Is not like zero recent grads said something like this. The problem is that many more say the diametric opposite.

Though it pains me personally to reduce our core by more than a course or two, if we had to cut more to allow for a more modern curriculum with bigger majors that train more for specific types of jobs, I'd be for it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on September 04, 2020, 05:36:52 AM
I think part of the problem for many non-selective institutions is they are advertising a liberal arts education, but aren't delivering a liberal arts education.

I spent a lot of quality time reviewing Super Dinky's competitors. The differences between Super Dinky's required core gen ed courses and the competitor's liberal arts offerings were so stark.  Why would anyone who wanted a liberal arts education pick Super Dinky when other places had so many more fabulous offerings and the learning community atmosphere to take full advantage?

Super Dinky had three English professors who offered one elective each per year.  There was also one elective by the philosophy professor, one elective by the religion professor, and two electives by the history professor.  Why so few electives?  The full-time humanities professors each took one course in the mandatory gen eds and offered enough sections so each student had a seat.

At one point in the long ago, Super Dinky had a very interesting gen ed program in which all the faculty taught, regardless of official expertise, and the entire campus had lengthy discussions at 11AM followed by continued discussions at lunch in the dining hall.  It was a liberal arts education and really appealing to the students who want the free-wheeling, big ideas discussions based on the whole of Western civilization.

When Super Dinky announced the final nail in the specific required humanities sequence, the alumni from the Core Ed Era came out of the woodwork to defend their experiences.  However, that was 30+ years ago and the curriculum had been watered down to unrecognizable as Super Dinky built major programs where faculty would not teach humanities courses (e.g., nursing, business, criminal justice), students became commuters instead of residential, and the fabulous faculty who cared a lot about teaching left for more money, leaving only the faculty who couldn't get other jobs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 04, 2020, 07:36:40 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 03, 2020, 01:00:33 PM
Quote from: spork on September 03, 2020, 11:00:19 AM

Not directed at you -- I wish people, especially an institution's own faculty and administrators, would stop using this terminology because it isn't supported by evidence.

FWIW, I agree: an institution's branding should reflect its reality or its aspirations.

I don't think numbers of majors is necessarily a good metric (but, hey, you need something), especially when we're comparing applied subjects with clearly-defined career paths to discovery majors. So, I'd be perfectly fine with an instition calling itself a LAC but haviing few majors in the liberal arts, so long as a significant chunk of the students there actually obtain a liberal arts education (through distribution requirements, minors, etc.). But to do that you have to buy into your own branding and invest in developing the liberal arts.

That seems fair to me as well.  Saying that an institution is a fake LAC because most of its majors are lowly education and business and nursing majors seems dismissive, and kind of elitist.  I get that a lot of SLACs are now in the process of losing any right to be considered an LAC, but that doesn't mean that all of them never were in the first place. 

Looking at IPEDS, I see that in the neighborhood of a third of majors at my alma mater--one of those small religiously-affiliated schools that polly and spork seem to hold in such contempt--are still in one or another field of the humanities.  Does that mean it's not a real LAC?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on September 04, 2020, 08:15:38 AM
What would be a positive label for these schools that are not Liberal Arts institutions?

I think part of the problem is that everyone claims to be a LAC at some level.

I work at a compass point comprehensive, with LOTS of business, nursing, engineering, education etc majors and even we  claim to have a core curriculum in the liberal arts.

I don't think there is a non-derogatory term for any other approach in the US. So what should we call these other schools, and how do we differentiate them from just a school with some Gen Ed requirements?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on September 04, 2020, 11:52:15 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 04, 2020, 07:36:40 AM
That seems fair to me as well.  Saying that an institution is a fake LAC because most of its majors are lowly education and business and nursing majors seems dismissive, and kind of elitist.  I get that a lot of SLACs are now in the process of losing any right to be considered an LAC, but that doesn't mean that all of them never were in the first place. 

Looking at IPEDS, I see that in the neighborhood of a third of majors at my alma mater--one of those small religiously-affiliated schools that polly and spork seem to hold in such contempt--are still in one or another field of the humanities.  Does that mean it's not a real LAC?

You're reading me wrong.  I approve of moving to serve the local needs by having large numbers of nurses, business folks, criminal justice folks, and teachers.

In the even longer ago, Super Dinky saved themselves by admitting men and starting engineering programs to attract the men. However, those programs became more and more expensive to run and engineering in particular is very hard to run in tiny places so those programs were killed decades ago.

The problem isn't being small or religiously-affiliated or even liberal-arts-focused.  The problem is not delivering as advertised.

A liberal arts education is traditionally 1/3 major, 1/3 gen ed, and 1/3 electives.  Nursing, K-12 education, social work, engineering, and other disciplines are not a liberal arts education any way you slice it, based on the typical licensure requirements.

However, business often does have room for a good many electives as do other popular enough fields like psychology.  I can believe someone majoring in business or psychology at some institutions is getting a liberal arts education.

However, even the handful of humanities graduates at Super Dinky were not getting a liberal arts education worth having due to lack of options and lack of a community of peers.  The nurses, social workers, and k-12 teachers were getting a good college education.  The humanities majors were being ripped off and anyone who had intended to be a humanities major didn't enroll for good reasons.

Cutting those majors was the right thing to do, regardless of the value of the subjects themselves.  Many colleges are not doing them well and that's a disservice to everyonee except the people drawing a paycheck for ripping off the students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 04, 2020, 02:27:12 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 04, 2020, 07:36:40 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 03, 2020, 01:00:33 PM
Quote from: spork on September 03, 2020, 11:00:19 AM

Not directed at you -- I wish people, especially an institution's own faculty and administrators, would stop using this terminology because it isn't supported by evidence.

FWIW, I agree: an institution's branding should reflect its reality or its aspirations.

I don't think numbers of majors is necessarily a good metric (but, hey, you need something), especially when we're comparing applied subjects with clearly-defined career paths to discovery majors. So, I'd be perfectly fine with an instition calling itself a LAC but haviing few majors in the liberal arts, so long as a significant chunk of the students there actually obtain a liberal arts education (through distribution requirements, minors, etc.). But to do that you have to buy into your own branding and invest in developing the liberal arts.

That seems fair to me as well.  Saying that an institution is a fake LAC because most of its majors are lowly education and business and nursing majors seems dismissive, and kind of elitist.  I get that a lot of SLACs are now in the process of losing any right to be considered an LAC, but that doesn't mean that all of them never were in the first place. 

Looking at IPEDS, I see that in the neighborhood of a third of majors at my alma mater--one of those small religiously-affiliated schools that polly and spork seem to hold in such contempt--are still in one or another field of the humanities.  Does that mean it's not a real LAC?

If I'm reading this correctly, you've misunderstood me. Adrian College's IPEDS data and tax filings indicate that 1) the overwhelming majority of students major in occupational training programs, 2) the liberal arts portions of the curriculum are probably almost entirely composed of a limited menu of courses that fulfill gen ed options (there does appear to be some type of arts program that has a healthy number of majors).

Of the places where I have been a full-time professor:
For all of the above, most of the students who major in liberal arts fields (broadly defined) do so because they think it is the path toward graduate study necessary to obtain professional licensure, e.g., JD, MD, master's in therapy/counseling. And at all of these places, the only exposure to liberal arts that most students get comes from a hodgepodge of one-off gen ed requirements that students regard as meaningless.

None of the above institutions are the equivalent of a Wellesley, Bryn Mawr, Williams, or Bates, places with students who are likely to do well post-college regardless of their choice of major.

When enrollment at a tuition-dependent institution declines to a certain level, it becomes even less viable to try to be all things to all people. The "liberal arts college" hype isn't in the financial interest of the college or of the students who attend.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 04, 2020, 03:01:54 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on September 04, 2020, 08:15:38 AM
What would be a positive label for these schools that are not Liberal Arts institutions?

I think part of the problem is that everyone claims to be a LAC at some level.

I work at a compass point comprehensive, with LOTS of business, nursing, engineering, education etc majors and even we  claim to have a core curriculum in the liberal arts.

I don't think there is a non-derogatory term for any other approach in the US. So what should we call these other schools, and how do we differentiate them from just a school with some Gen Ed requirements?

To the first question, I'd suggest "college."  Don't attach a conditional adjective that doesn't apply.

A lot of the discussion here makes the point that the "liberal arts" is not what most students are looking for. Using that term as a descriptor in marketing might reduce the attractiveness to those students, and possibly to parents who are paying a lot of money in the hope of having financially independent children.

Do compass-point comprehensives, and other non-LACs, retain the term because the faculty want to suspend disbelief and think of themselves that way? Does it make the trustees feel like they are responsible for a fancier school? Who is the constituent group pushing for that descriptor?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 05, 2020, 08:44:36 AM
Quote from: spork on September 04, 2020, 02:27:12 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 04, 2020, 07:36:40 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 03, 2020, 01:00:33 PM
Quote from: spork on September 03, 2020, 11:00:19 AM

Not directed at you -- I wish people, especially an institution's own faculty and administrators, would stop using this terminology because it isn't supported by evidence.

FWIW, I agree: an institution's branding should reflect its reality or its aspirations.

I don't think numbers of majors is necessarily a good metric (but, hey, you need something), especially when we're comparing applied subjects with clearly-defined career paths to discovery majors. So, I'd be perfectly fine with an instition calling itself a LAC but haviing few majors in the liberal arts, so long as a significant chunk of the students there actually obtain a liberal arts education (through distribution requirements, minors, etc.). But to do that you have to buy into your own branding and invest in developing the liberal arts.

That seems fair to me as well.  Saying that an institution is a fake LAC because most of its majors are lowly education and business and nursing majors seems dismissive, and kind of elitist.  I get that a lot of SLACs are now in the process of losing any right to be considered an LAC, but that doesn't mean that all of them never were in the first place. 

Looking at IPEDS, I see that in the neighborhood of a third of majors at my alma mater--one of those small religiously-affiliated schools that polly and spork seem to hold in such contempt--are still in one or another field of the humanities.  Does that mean it's not a real LAC?

If I'm reading this correctly, you've misunderstood me. Adrian College's IPEDS data and tax filings indicate that 1) the overwhelming majority of students major in occupational training programs, 2) the liberal arts portions of the curriculum are probably almost entirely composed of a limited menu of courses that fulfill gen ed options (there does appear to be some type of arts program that has a healthy number of majors).

Of the places where I have been a full-time professor:

  • church-affiliated high school that eventually became a church-affiliated university with 3,000 students; a few of its liberal arts programs are ok but none are great.
  • church-affiliated college that is now a non-denominational university with 5,000 students; a few ok liberal arts programs.
  • church-affiliated university with 2,000 students that originally only admitted women to train them for the service occupations open to them at the time (teacher, nurse); liberal arts programs range from mediocre to "you're really wasting a lot of money."
  • non-denominational normal school that became a regional state university with 15,000 students, which means enough scale to offer some reasonably high-quality liberal arts programs.
For all of the above, most of the students who major in liberal arts fields (broadly defined) do so because they think it is the path toward graduate study necessary to obtain professional licensure, e.g., JD, MD, master's in therapy/counseling. And at all of these places, the only exposure to liberal arts that most students get comes from a hodgepodge of one-off gen ed requirements that students regard as meaningless.

None of the above institutions are the equivalent of a Wellesley, Bryn Mawr, Williams, or Bates, places with students who are likely to do well post-college regardless of their choice of major.

When enrollment at a tuition-dependent institution declines to a certain level, it becomes even less viable to try to be all things to all people. The "liberal arts college" hype isn't in the financial interest of the college or of the students who attend.

I guess I didn't explain myself well enough.  I don't disagree with any of the above.  But there's a huge spectrum between the handful of elite LACs like Wellesley, and the threadbare Super Dinky colleges that claim to have liberal arts long after they've lost them.  Where along that spectrum does a college cease to be entitled to be called an LAC?  Does the term apply only to that handful of elite schools, or does a school where a large minority of students still major in the liberal arts, and still some well-regarded programs (And has a history of being at least moderately selective, although I don't know that they can afford that now) also qualify?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 05, 2020, 02:17:09 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 05, 2020, 08:44:36 AM
But there's a huge spectrum between the handful of elite LACs like Wellesley, and the threadbare Super Dinky colleges that claim to have liberal arts long after they've lost them.  Where along that spectrum does a college cease to be entitled to be called an LAC?  Does the term apply only to that handful of elite schools, or does a school where a large minority of students still major in the liberal arts, and still some well-regarded programs (And has a history of being at least moderately selective, although I don't know that they can afford that now) also qualify?

US News lists 223 LACs. Does that seem  like the right ballpark?

Somewhere in that list would be the cutoff for what is considered a Selective LAC. How far down that list do they appear to be selective with a core Liberal Arts curriculum?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 05, 2020, 02:59:21 PM
Don't mean to derail, but I have a new question.

Why should the lack of housing, food, and processing fees damage an institution's overall finances that much?  I keep hearing about millions of dollars in refunds and lost fees, particularly since dormitories are unoccupied.

If the dorms, cafeterias, gyms, student unions, etc. are not in use, aren't they just unoccupied buildings?  Some small upkeep and security costs, certainly.  But shouldn't the other functions of the university still be viable if students are paying tuition?

Or do universities use these "fees" to generate additional income for the general fund?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 05, 2020, 03:44:46 PM
Net revenue where I work depends on dorm and meal plan fees. It's a stupid business model.

It's called "auxiliary revenue" in the budget but there's nothing auxiliary about it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on September 05, 2020, 04:08:12 PM
We rent out space on our campus (auditoriums and other venue-type spaces) to area schools for shows and performances put on by a third party. We also host events like graduations for fire departments and police departments. So our facilities get a lot of use even when we are on campus during the academic year. During the summer, we host many camps and other training/graduation/performance events. We have lost all of that auxiliary revenue going back to March and still counting. We rely on that non-student auxiliary income to support the operation of the college. Tuition isn't enough because we discount it deeply.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on September 05, 2020, 06:25:29 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 05, 2020, 02:59:21 PM
Don't mean to derail, but I have a new question.

Why should the lack of housing, food, and processing fees damage an institution's overall finances that much?  I keep hearing about millions of dollars in refunds and lost fees, particularly since dormitories are unoccupied.

If the dorms, cafeterias, gyms, student unions, etc. are not in use, aren't they just unoccupied buildings?  Some small upkeep and security costs, certainly.  But shouldn't the other functions of the university still be viable if students are paying tuition?

Or do universities use these "fees" to generate additional income for the general fund?

I'm sure there is a markup that is dropped to the bottom line. So a meal plan that is priced at $5,000 probably costs $4,000 to deliver. Even though the college (theoretically) doesn't have to pay the $4,000 in food, labor, utilities, etc, the college still loses $1,000.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pgher on September 05, 2020, 07:41:14 PM
Debt service on the cost of construction. Contracted services.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on September 06, 2020, 11:02:30 AM

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 05, 2020, 02:59:21 PM
Don't mean to derail, but I have a new question.

Why should the lack of housing, food, and processing fees damage an institution's overall finances that much?  I keep hearing about millions of dollars in refunds and lost fees, particularly since dormitories are unoccupied.



Debt service, as pgher said. Universities use bonds to build and renovate dorms, just as individuals use mortgages and HELOCs.

Contracted services, also mentioned by pgher. Universities often contract with utilities, maintenance companies, shuttle services, and other third party contractors. The dorm residents would have used, and paid for, part of those services. Contracts typically have minimum dollar amounts and early cancellation penalties.

Salaries and benefits. The university employs residence life staff, cleaners, grounds crew, bookkeepers, etc., to support dorm operations. Some can and will be laid off immediately, with benefits ending at end of month. Others are needed even if dorms are empty.

Costs associated with laying people off. The unemployment insurance assessment increases for an employer with many claims. Some places offer severance or job placement assistance, which may be required by law or union contract. Some places have to pay out accumulated leave.

Other overhead. The dean of students, campus security lighting, the leased copier in the student union, the accounting staff who spend part of their time on dorm-related expenses, are probably all partially paid from dorm revenues under the heading of overhead expenses.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pgher on September 06, 2020, 12:27:53 PM
Quote from: Vkw10 on September 06, 2020, 11:02:30 AM

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 05, 2020, 02:59:21 PM
Don't mean to derail, but I have a new question.

Why should the lack of housing, food, and processing fees damage an institution's overall finances that much?  I keep hearing about millions of dollars in refunds and lost fees, particularly since dormitories are unoccupied.



Debt service, as pgher said. Universities use bonds to build and renovate dorms, just as individuals use mortgages and HELOCs.

Contracted services, also mentioned by pgher. Universities often contract with utilities, maintenance companies, shuttle services, and other third party contractors. The dorm residents would have used, and paid for, part of those services. Contracts typically have minimum dollar amounts and early cancellation penalties.

Salaries and benefits. The university employs residence life staff, cleaners, grounds crew, bookkeepers, etc., to support dorm operations. Some can and will be laid off immediately, with benefits ending at end of month. Others are needed even if dorms are empty.

Costs associated with laying people off. The unemployment insurance assessment increases for an employer with many claims. Some places offer severance or job placement assistance, which may be required by law or union contract. Some places have to pay out accumulated leave.

Other overhead. The dean of students, campus security lighting, the leased copier in the student union, the accounting staff who spend part of their time on dorm-related expenses, are probably all partially paid from dorm revenues under the heading of overhead expenses.

Thanks, vkw10, for expanding on what I wrote from my phone. Now that I'm on my computer....

I'm involved with a conference held every year in March. We had to cancel this year's event, and are looking seriously at what we can do for next year. It is a big enough conference that we currently have contracts for conferences as far out as 2025. We plan as if each succeeding year looks like the preceding year, with a bit of growth. We enter into binding contracts with convention centers, hotels, etc. Yes, we have some wiggle room, but not a lot. We can adjust attendance estimates up or down by about 10%.

Universities are in a similar position. Many costs continue whether service is rendered or not.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 07, 2020, 07:45:46 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 05, 2020, 02:17:09 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 05, 2020, 08:44:36 AM
But there's a huge spectrum between the handful of elite LACs like Wellesley, and the threadbare Super Dinky colleges that claim to have liberal arts long after they've lost them.  Where along that spectrum does a college cease to be entitled to be called an LAC?  Does the term apply only to that handful of elite schools, or does a school where a large minority of students still major in the liberal arts, and still some well-regarded programs (And has a history of being at least moderately selective, although I don't know that they can afford that now) also qualify?

US News lists 223 LACs. Does that seem  like the right ballpark?

Somewhere in that list would be the cutoff for what is considered a Selective LAC. How far down that list do they appear to be selective with a core Liberal Arts curriculum?

They weren't on the list.  "U.S. News" says that they define an LAC as a primarily undergrad school where at least half of students major in the liberal arts.  I suppose that's fair enough.  Alma Mater probably met the criterion when I was there in the late 1980s.  At some point since then they've fallen below the threshold.  But they do still have a meaningful number of liberal arts programs and majors.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on September 07, 2020, 08:55:23 AM
That definition does not  necessarily sound bad... but it does beg the question as to exactly which disciplines are properly to be included in the 'liberal arts'?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on September 07, 2020, 09:51:05 AM
Well, we cheat by having traditional departments like Econ and Physics offer both traditional majors and majors that are essentially Pre-Bus and Pre-Eng (though we don't call them that). More people start pre-eng tham finish that way, so we keep the liberal arts physics as a parachute.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on September 07, 2020, 11:06:05 AM
The Carnegie Classification might be useful: https://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/classification_descriptions/basic.php

A LAC is officially a Baccalaureate College:Arts & Sciences and there are only 241 of them.

An R2, however wonderful in undergrad experience and/or education, is not a LAC.  Super Dinky is not a LAC, but Harvey Mudd is listed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 07, 2020, 03:46:09 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on September 07, 2020, 11:06:05 AM
The Carnegie Classification might be useful: https://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/classification_descriptions/basic.php

A LAC is officially a Baccalaureate College:Arts & Sciences and there are only 241 of them.

An R2, however wonderful in undergrad experience and/or education, is not a LAC.  Super Dinky is not a LAC, but Harvey Mudd is listed.

In other words, with ~2,500 four-year colleges in the US, only 10% are LACs. So the term really only applies to a handful of schools, as APL68 was asking. And even fewer are "Selective"..

Using the THE rankings (https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/best-universities/best-liberal-arts-colleges-united-states), I find at ~50 Rhodes, Willamette and Elon. Are we still in the elite range? At ~100 are Bard, Rollins, Earlham, Hampshire. Still in SLAC territory? The last is in Dire Financial Straits.

Using the LAC concept as the reference for a "real college" or a "normal college" is clearly incorrect.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 07, 2020, 04:01:56 PM
Quote from: Hibush on September 07, 2020, 03:46:09 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on September 07, 2020, 11:06:05 AM
The Carnegie Classification might be useful: https://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/classification_descriptions/basic.php

A LAC is officially a Baccalaureate College:Arts & Sciences and there are only 241 of them.

An R2, however wonderful in undergrad experience and/or education, is not a LAC.  Super Dinky is not a LAC, but Harvey Mudd is listed.

In other words, with ~2,500 four-year colleges in the US, only 10% are LACs. So the term really only applies to a handful of schools, as APL68 was asking. And even fewer are "Selective"..

Using the THE rankings (https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/best-universities/best-liberal-arts-colleges-united-states), I find at ~50 Rhodes, Willamette and Elon. Are we still in the elite range? At ~100 are Bard, Rollins, Earlham, Hampshire. Still in SLAC territory? The last is in Dire Financial Straits.

Using the LAC concept as the reference for a "real college" or a "normal college" is clearly incorrect.

The THE ranks Wake Forest University and the U.S. Naval Academy in the top 30 U.S. liberal arts colleges, thereby demonstrating the idiocy of such ranking systems.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on September 07, 2020, 04:39:49 PM
Yes, almost no institutions are LACs. That's one of the magical thinking aspects of interacting with faculty who just have no clue about the higher ed business outside of the classroom.

This year and next will be a very rude wake-up call for the faculty at many institutions because, technically, Super Dinky is less selective at admitting 50-60% of applicants, depending on source and year.  Many of the small, non-elite colleges are going to have problems worse than they already had. 

Even a medium R2 likely will struggle if their mission isn't already aligned with the interests in the region and keeps asserting a liberal arts mindset in the typical departments who benefit from that assertion instead of realigning gen eds and cutting contingent faculty in droves to free up resources for faculty in majors.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on September 07, 2020, 07:24:52 PM
All this disputation wrt which schools qualify as liberal arts colleges remains nice, but I still would be very interested to know if anyone wants to offer a definition of 'liberal arts' that allows one to figure out which disciplines we ought to put therein, and if anyone has any good citations to presumably authoritative back-up citations for their definition?

A related question would be, how many non-liberal arts disciplines could be taught at a lac, and whether one ought to be able to major in one of these, and have the school still be a lac?

Without a reasonable definition and authoritative back-up, the question is not necessarily worth much, allowing many more schools than one might think of, to reasonably get away with labeling themselves lacs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 07, 2020, 07:54:40 PM
lib·er·al arts
/ˈlib(ə)rəl ärts/
noun
NORTH AMERICAN
academic subjects such as literature, philosophy, mathematics, and social and physical sciences as distinct from professional and technical subjects.
HISTORICAL
the medieval trivium and quadrivium.

The big thing here is that some posters really resent the "distinct from professional and technical" stuff and see no point in it.  I suspect something happened to someone's academic career having to do with lib arts professors and administration, but I will never know. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on September 09, 2020, 06:58:37 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 07, 2020, 07:54:40 PM
lib·er·al arts
/ˈlib(ə)rəl ärts/
noun
NORTH AMERICAN
academic subjects such as literature, philosophy, mathematics, and social and physical sciences as distinct from professional and technical subjects.
HISTORICAL
the medieval trivium and quadrivium.

The big thing here is that some posters really resent the "distinct from professional and technical" stuff and see no point in it.  I suspect something happened to someone's academic career having to do with lib arts professors and administration, but I will never know.

(1) That's not the useful definition for the discussion of what constitutes a liberal arts college.

(2) Almost nobody gets a liberal arts degree any more unless psychology counts.

(3) I laugh pretty hard about the notion that somehow my career was ruined by liberal arts professors.  I left Super Dinky before it went under and landed a fabulous science career using my education.  I left academia entirely because the good jobs are few and far between for the kind of career I wanted that includes a very small town at an institution that will likely be open for the rest of my productive life.  There are big city options, but few small town options.

When I was more optimistic, I hoped faculty would be able to use their vaunted critical thinking skills to also leave before the crash that was coming and has been accelerated by Covid.

I keep watching higher ed now as one might watch a soap opera to see what happens to the various characters.


Posting here is much like yelling at the TV for the characters in the horror movie who keep doing stupid things hoping to evade the killer/monsters instead of leaving.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on September 09, 2020, 06:59:27 PM
UConn facing huge deficits: https://ctmirror.org/2020/08/28/uconn-could-face-largest-budget-shortfall-in-schools-history/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 10, 2020, 07:59:25 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on September 09, 2020, 06:59:27 PM
UConn facing huge deficits: https://ctmirror.org/2020/08/28/uconn-could-face-largest-budget-shortfall-in-schools-history/

Interesting to note that they say that "net tuition loss is next to zero," but they're running a 5% deficit due to losses in housing and dining revenue.  Which speaks to the question of several days ago concerning why the loss of housing and dining revenue matters.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on September 10, 2020, 08:10:41 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 10, 2020, 07:59:25 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on September 09, 2020, 06:59:27 PM
UConn facing huge deficits: https://ctmirror.org/2020/08/28/uconn-could-face-largest-budget-shortfall-in-schools-history/

Interesting to note that they say that "net tuition loss is next to zero," but they're running a 5% deficit due to losses in housing and dining revenue.  Which speaks to the question of several days ago concerning why the loss of housing and dining revenue matters.

Because there still may be fixed costs in maintaining the dorms and kitchens even if they aren't being used.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 10, 2020, 08:19:41 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 10, 2020, 08:10:41 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 10, 2020, 07:59:25 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on September 09, 2020, 06:59:27 PM
UConn facing huge deficits: https://ctmirror.org/2020/08/28/uconn-could-face-largest-budget-shortfall-in-schools-history/

Interesting to note that they say that "net tuition loss is next to zero," but they're running a 5% deficit due to losses in housing and dining revenue.  Which speaks to the question of several days ago concerning why the loss of housing and dining revenue matters.

Because there still may be fixed costs in maintaining the dorms and kitchens even if they aren't being used.

No. Because net revenue depends on the profit earned from housing and dining. The existing university budget is not solvent without housing and dining as a profit center.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on September 10, 2020, 08:38:50 AM
Quote from: spork on September 10, 2020, 08:19:41 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 10, 2020, 08:10:41 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 10, 2020, 07:59:25 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on September 09, 2020, 06:59:27 PM
UConn facing huge deficits: https://ctmirror.org/2020/08/28/uconn-could-face-largest-budget-shortfall-in-schools-history/

Interesting to note that they say that "net tuition loss is next to zero," but they're running a 5% deficit due to losses in housing and dining revenue.  Which speaks to the question of several days ago concerning why the loss of housing and dining revenue matters.

Because there still may be fixed costs in maintaining the dorms and kitchens even if they aren't being used.

No. Because net revenue depends on the profit earned from housing and dining. The existing university budget is not solvent without housing and dining as a profit center.

I think the point was that, if housing and dining loses 5% profit overall, then loss of that revenue of 100 should theoretically eliminate the costs of 105, leading to a breakeven situation or even a net improvement in profit since that 5% loss goes away.

But it's not that simple.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on September 10, 2020, 08:55:43 AM
It's almost as if knowing how a university runs as a human organization would be relevant to making decisions regarding employment and stability.  Huh.  Which gen ed course teaches such a thing again?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 12, 2020, 02:20:26 AM
William Patterson University. Not truly dire because it's public and it has a mid-sized enrollment, but probably a $10 million shortfall, with a big chunk of that coming from a dorm occupancy rate of only ~ 50%. More problematic is a 50% completion rate and an acceptance rate of > 90% (not in article, from my own research).

https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/education/2020/09/09/wpu-wayne-budget-gap-enrollment-drop-vacancy-dorms/5744440002/ (https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/education/2020/09/09/wpu-wayne-budget-gap-enrollment-drop-vacancy-dorms/5744440002/).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: onehappyunicorn on September 12, 2020, 10:51:42 AM
Quote from: spork on September 12, 2020, 02:20:26 AM
William Patterson University. Not truly dire because it's public and it has a mid-sized enrollment, but probably a $10 million shortfall, with a big chunk of that coming from a dorm occupancy rate of only ~ 50%. More problematic is a 50% completion rate and an acceptance rate of > 90% (not in article, from my own research).

https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/education/2020/09/09/wpu-wayne-budget-gap-enrollment-drop-vacancy-dorms/5744440002/ (https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/education/2020/09/09/wpu-wayne-budget-gap-enrollment-drop-vacancy-dorms/5744440002/).

I once got stuck in the art building elevator at WPU for 20 minutes.
I ended up dropping out of that program and completing my degree at another institution several years later. As a first-generation college student I didn't understand how to advocate for myself and I was enrolled into several classes that weren't necessary for my degree by the advising center. I hope things are better now but my experience there was not very positive.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 21, 2020, 03:40:09 AM
Benjamin Franklin Institute of Technology in merger discussions with Wentworth Institute of Technology:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/20/metro/benjamin-frankin-institute-technology-wentworth-are-talking-merger-secret/ (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/20/metro/benjamin-frankin-institute-technology-wentworth-are-talking-merger-secret/).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on September 21, 2020, 07:51:50 AM
Quote from: spork on September 21, 2020, 03:40:09 AM
Benjamin Franklin Institute of Technology in merger discussions with Wentworth Institute of Technology:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/20/metro/benjamin-frankin-institute-technology-wentworth-are-talking-merger-secret/ (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/20/metro/benjamin-frankin-institute-technology-wentworth-are-talking-merger-secret/).

Interesting. A friend works at BFIT. Hope they'll be OK.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on September 21, 2020, 08:38:10 AM
Quote from: mamselle on September 21, 2020, 07:51:50 AM
Quote from: spork on September 21, 2020, 03:40:09 AM
Benjamin Franklin Institute of Technology in merger discussions with Wentworth Institute of Technology:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/20/metro/benjamin-frankin-institute-technology-wentworth-are-talking-merger-secret/ (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/20/metro/benjamin-frankin-institute-technology-wentworth-are-talking-merger-secret/).

Interesting. A friend works at BFIT. Hope they'll be OK.

M.

Just heard back.

No-one knew anything, and friend is well-enough placed to be worried that they only heard vague rumors last week.

I'm worried for them.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 21, 2020, 09:18:16 AM
Quote from: mamselle on September 21, 2020, 07:51:50 AM
Quote from: spork on September 21, 2020, 03:40:09 AM
Benjamin Franklin Institute of Technology in merger discussions with Wentworth Institute of Technology:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/20/metro/benjamin-frankin-institute-technology-wentworth-are-talking-merger-secret/ (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/20/metro/benjamin-frankin-institute-technology-wentworth-are-talking-merger-secret/).

Interesting. A friend works at BFIT. Hope they'll be OK.

M.

As usual with Boston-area colleges, the real estate deal in the mix is interesting. BFIT's plan to sell off its South End location to move to Nubian Square could be a cash windfall for Wentworth.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on September 21, 2020, 11:18:26 AM
It could also negatively affect students coming from parts of town where public transportation to the Wentworth campus is practically nil--or takes two hours.

Going from East Boston to the South End--not too bad.

Going all the way out on the Huntington Ave. line (whose cars are notoriously slow and far between)--abysmal.

Since many of those students are in vocational/prep programs like car repair, and are often not well-placed financially, it's another case where those in need of good programs, with little flexibility as to life choices and locational change, will have the rug pulled out from under them, yet again.

When trustees act more like corporate shareholders than academic stewards, things like this get really nasty.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 25, 2020, 09:01:14 AM
Keuka College, negative net revenue FYs 2015-2018:

https://www.fingerlakesdailynews.com/2020/09/23/633774/ (https://www.fingerlakesdailynews.com/2020/09/23/633774/).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on September 25, 2020, 01:41:20 PM
University of Delaware faces $250M shortfall so layoffs and furloughs announced: https://www.newarkpostonline.com/news/facing-a-250-million-deficit-ud-announces-layoffs-and-furloughs/article_b3a24534-0afe-57bb-bc88-cb95f0a850da.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 25, 2020, 02:16:03 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on September 25, 2020, 01:41:20 PM
University of Delaware faces $250M shortfall so layoffs and furloughs announced: https://www.newarkpostonline.com/news/facing-a-250-million-deficit-ud-announces-layoffs-and-furloughs/article_b3a24534-0afe-57bb-bc88-cb95f0a850da.html

While cancellation of events for which campus facilities were rented undoubtedly represented a loss of revenue, I find it highly doubtful that UD normally profits from athletics ticket sales.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on September 25, 2020, 09:54:11 PM
University of Delaware old financial statement are available at
https://sites.udel.edu/vpfinance/reports/audited-financial-statements/ (https://sites.udel.edu/vpfinance/reports/audited-financial-statements/)
Potential sources of revenue decrease (2019 revenue numbers):
Sales and services of auxiliary enterprises - $137 million
Grants, contracts, and other exchange transactions - $201 million
State operating appropriations - $122 million

Switching to remote essentially wipes the first source. So only moderate decrease in other revenues is needed to bring deficit to reporter quarter billion provided operating expenses remain flat.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 26, 2020, 04:02:49 AM
Quote from: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on September 25, 2020, 09:54:11 PM
University of Delaware old financial statement are available at
https://sites.udel.edu/vpfinance/reports/audited-financial-statements/ (https://sites.udel.edu/vpfinance/reports/audited-financial-statements/)
Potential sources of revenue decrease (2019 revenue numbers):
Sales and services of auxiliary enterprises - $137 million
Grants, contracts, and other exchange transactions - $201 million
State operating appropriations - $122 million

Switching to remote essentially wipes the first source. So only moderate decrease in other revenues is needed to bring deficit to reporter quarter billion provided operating expenses remain flat.

The $250 million represents 25% of their operating budget. That's a lot. Even a 5% cut requires eliminating important functions.

The revenue from auxiliary services ($137 million) is offset by the $115 million cash outlay to provide those (housing, dining, student health; athletic tickets are not reported). They also have $18  million in legit depreciation that makes enterprise just break even, but they are worried about cash flow right now.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 26, 2020, 02:54:41 PM
Houghton College, negative net revenue for FYs 2014-2017, does tuition reset:

https://www.the-leader.com/news/20200922/houghton-college-resets-tuition-to-aid-students-during-covid-19 (https://www.the-leader.com/news/20200922/houghton-college-resets-tuition-to-aid-students-during-covid-19).

Houghton's reported 12-month FTE undergraduate enrollment dropped from ~ 1,350 pre-2008 recession to under 1,000 in 2019.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on September 26, 2020, 06:04:32 PM
UMass Amhearst Puts 850 Workers on Indefinite Furlough: https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2020/08/27/umass-amherst-puts-850-workers-on-indefinite-furloughs

And that's the good outcome the union negotiated.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 29, 2020, 12:06:42 PM
Not truly dire given the 10,000+ enrollment, but an arbitrator has ruled that University of Akron can invoke force majeure to layoff unionized faculty:

https://www.cleveland.com/education/2020/09/arbitrator-sides-with-university-of-akron-in-layoff-of-nearly-100-union-faculty.html (https://www.cleveland.com/education/2020/09/arbitrator-sides-with-university-of-akron-in-layoff-of-nearly-100-union-faculty.html).

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on September 29, 2020, 03:07:56 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on September 26, 2020, 06:04:32 PM
UMass Amhearst Puts 850 Workers on Indefinite Furlough: https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2020/08/27/umass-amherst-puts-850-workers-on-indefinite-furloughs

And that's the good outcome the union negotiated.

No relation to the newspaper magnate: it's Amherst.

;--}

The UMass system has held out for a while now, but it's getting more worrisome.

A friend teaches Philosophy at the Columbia Point campus; I'm curious how they're doing. 

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on October 02, 2020, 06:43:08 AM
Again. https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/10/02/financial-concerns-continue-city-college-san-francisco
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 02, 2020, 01:12:29 PM
Not just a school, but students in dire financial straits--Arkansas Baptist College is one of ten schools nationally being threatened with loss of eligibility to disburse federal financial aid because they've had more than 30% of students default on student loans for three years in a row.

https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/oct/01/defaults-leave-college-facing-an-aid-lockout/


Can't recall whether ABC has appeared on either version of this thread before.  They're an HCBU that has had repeated financial and accreditation issues in recent years.  And of course the COVID year isn't doing them any favors.  Size-wise, they're in the Super Dinky league.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 02, 2020, 01:32:56 PM
Quote from: apl68 on October 02, 2020, 01:12:29 PM
Not just a school, but students in dire financial straits--Arkansas Baptist College is one of ten schools nationally being threatened with loss of eligibility to disburse federal financial aid because they've had more than 30% of students default on student loans for three years in a row.

https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/oct/01/defaults-leave-college-facing-an-aid-lockout/


Can't recall whether ABC has appeared on either version of this thread before.  They're an HCBU that has had repeated financial and accreditation issues in recent years.  And of course the COVID year isn't doing them any favors.  Size-wise, they're in the Super Dinky league.

It has a 12% graduation rate. Your tax dollars hard at work subsidizing a church.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 02, 2020, 01:39:38 PM
Quote from: spork on October 02, 2020, 01:32:56 PM
Quote from: apl68 on October 02, 2020, 01:12:29 PM
Not just a school, but students in dire financial straits--Arkansas Baptist College is one of ten schools nationally being threatened with loss of eligibility to disburse federal financial aid because they've had more than 30% of students default on student loans for three years in a row.

https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/oct/01/defaults-leave-college-facing-an-aid-lockout/


Can't recall whether ABC has appeared on either version of this thread before.  They're an HCBU that has had repeated financial and accreditation issues in recent years.  And of course the COVID year isn't doing them any favors.  Size-wise, they're in the Super Dinky league.

It has a 12% graduation rate. Your tax dollars hard at work subsidizing a church.

Honestly, I haven't gotten the impression that the affiliated church has a better reputation than the school does.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 02, 2020, 01:49:21 PM
Quote from: apl68 on October 02, 2020, 01:39:38 PM
Quote from: spork on October 02, 2020, 01:32:56 PM
Quote from: apl68 on October 02, 2020, 01:12:29 PM
Not just a school, but students in dire financial straits--Arkansas Baptist College is one of ten schools nationally being threatened with loss of eligibility to disburse federal financial aid because they've had more than 30% of students default on student loans for three years in a row.

https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/oct/01/defaults-leave-college-facing-an-aid-lockout/


Can't recall whether ABC has appeared on either version of this thread before.  They're an HCBU that has had repeated financial and accreditation issues in recent years.  And of course the COVID year isn't doing them any favors.  Size-wise, they're in the Super Dinky league.

It has a 12% graduation rate. Your tax dollars hard at work subsidizing a church.

Honestly, I haven't gotten the impression that the affiliated church has a better reputation than the school does.

I'm guessing it's basically an ATM for school/church trustees, funding boats, vacations, second homes.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on October 02, 2020, 02:32:48 PM
They're accredited by the (Higher Learning Commission) HLC:

   https://www.arkansasbaptist.edu/accreditation/

But they were in trouble with the ATS (Association of Theological Schools) in 2016; that notation against their accreditation was removed in June of 2018:

   https://www.ats.edu/uploads/accrediting/documents/2018-06-board-of-commissioners-report-abstracted.pdf

That's the most recent report on the ATS site I can find.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on October 02, 2020, 04:31:10 PM
Quote from: mamselle on October 02, 2020, 02:32:48 PM
They're accredited by the (Higher Learning Commission) HLC:

   https://www.arkansasbaptist.edu/accreditation


1) Arkansas Baptist is currently on probation with the HLC for failing to meet 5A related to resources (https://www.hlcommission.org/component/directory/?Itemid=&Action=ShowBasic&instid=1917) and that's an improvement from the show-cause notice in 2016.  ABC was on the hook for an on-site visit September 2020 for their probation.

2) It's weird that ABC's accreditation webpage doesn't look something like https://www.lltc.edu/about-us/accreditation/ since ABC is on probation with the HLC.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 04, 2020, 03:22:43 PM
Adrian College in the news again:

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/2020/10/03/adrian-college-football-game-covid-19-michigan/3611730001/ (https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/2020/10/03/adrian-college-football-game-covid-19-michigan/3611730001/).

Forty-eight sports teams for an enrollment of fewer than 2,000 students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on October 05, 2020, 11:08:04 AM
Also Illinois Wesleyan (don't think i've seen this posted yet, apologies if it's a duplicate):

   https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-illinois-wesleyan-university-liberal-arts-cuts-20201005-sb3disywfvb43mpg6bjoiweyfi-story.html

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 05, 2020, 12:26:46 PM
Quote from: mamselle on October 05, 2020, 11:08:04 AM
Also Illinois Wesleyan (don't think i've seen this posted yet, apologies if it's a duplicate):

   https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-illinois-wesleyan-university-liberal-arts-cuts-20201005-sb3disywfvb43mpg6bjoiweyfi-story.html

M.

I doubt IWU has been a "bastion for liberal arts" for the last several decades. Perhaps for a century.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 05, 2020, 12:45:16 PM
Quote from: spork on October 05, 2020, 12:26:46 PM
Quote from: mamselle on October 05, 2020, 11:08:04 AM
Also Illinois Wesleyan (don't think i've seen this posted yet, apologies if it's a duplicate):

   https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-illinois-wesleyan-university-liberal-arts-cuts-20201005-sb3disywfvb43mpg6bjoiweyfi-story.html

M.

I doubt IWU has been a "bastion for liberal arts" for the last several decades. Perhaps for a century.

Quote
"People sometimes disregard or dismiss terms like humanities and liberal arts. They don't understand what that does to their careers," Sheridan said, explaining that skills such as critical thinking and communication are marketable.

It's really hard to sympathize with people convinced that the general skills that their disciplines claim to develop are completely lacking in other disciplines that also provide very valuable definable skills.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on October 05, 2020, 02:30:55 PM
Quote from: spork on October 05, 2020, 12:26:46 PM
Quote from: mamselle on October 05, 2020, 11:08:04 AM
Also Illinois Wesleyan (don't think i've seen this posted yet, apologies if it's a duplicate):

   https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-illinois-wesleyan-university-liberal-arts-cuts-20201005-sb3disywfvb43mpg6bjoiweyfi-story.html

M.

I doubt IWU has been a "bastion for liberal arts" for the last several decades. Perhaps for a century.
"We have an educational model in the United States that sometimes privileges the professional degree tracks."  Do other people not know that practically the entire world runs on higher education models that don't privilege the liberal arts?  The reason university is important for an increasing fraction of the adult population to attend is exactly the professional degree tracks like nursing, k-12 teaching, engineering, and social work.

It's a weird historical holdover in the US to be so focused on general education at the university level at the expense of specializing beyond secondary school.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: hazelshade on October 05, 2020, 03:36:04 PM
Quote from: spork on October 05, 2020, 12:26:46 PM
Quote from: mamselle on October 05, 2020, 11:08:04 AM
Also Illinois Wesleyan (don't think i've seen this posted yet, apologies if it's a duplicate):

   https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-illinois-wesleyan-university-liberal-arts-cuts-20201005-sb3disywfvb43mpg6bjoiweyfi-story.html

M.

I doubt IWU has been a "bastion for liberal arts" for the last several decades. Perhaps for a century.

This seems snide and unfounded (and doesn't track with my experience with IWU). What are you basing this on?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 05, 2020, 03:52:07 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on October 05, 2020, 02:30:55 PM
Quote from: spork on October 05, 2020, 12:26:46 PM
Quote from: mamselle on October 05, 2020, 11:08:04 AM
Also Illinois Wesleyan (don't think i've seen this posted yet, apologies if it's a duplicate):

   https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-illinois-wesleyan-university-liberal-arts-cuts-20201005-sb3disywfvb43mpg6bjoiweyfi-story.html

M.

I doubt IWU has been a "bastion for liberal arts" for the last several decades. Perhaps for a century.
"We have an educational model in the United States that sometimes privileges the professional degree tracks."  Do other people not know that practically the entire world runs on higher education models that don't privilege the liberal arts? 

Yeah, I got a kick out of the irony of that as well.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on October 05, 2020, 04:11:12 PM
Small places apart, this is also an intertemporal problem.

And, indeed, some 50 graduate programs are pausing

https://www.chronicle.com/article/more-doctoral-programs-suspend-admissions-that-could-have-lasting-effects-on-graduate-education (https://www.chronicle.com/article/more-doctoral-programs-suspend-admissions-that-could-have-lasting-effects-on-graduate-education)

Could help solve a lot  of perceived iniquities among current academics, including the adjunct/tenured faculty ratio, low wages for certain disciplines, and so on.

Of course, some costs fall on the current generation of potential entrants.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 06, 2020, 02:52:20 AM
Sacred Heart pulls out of merger plan with U. Bridgeport:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/10/06/sacred-heart-university-withdraws-university-bridgeport-acquisition-dropping-deal (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/10/06/sacred-heart-university-withdraws-university-bridgeport-acquisition-dropping-deal)

Quote from: hazelshade on October 05, 2020, 03:36:04 PM
Quote from: spork on October 05, 2020, 12:26:46 PM
Quote from: mamselle on October 05, 2020, 11:08:04 AM
Also Illinois Wesleyan (don't think i've seen this posted yet, apologies if it's a duplicate):

   https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-illinois-wesleyan-university-liberal-arts-cuts-20201005-sb3disywfvb43mpg6bjoiweyfi-story.html

M.

I doubt IWU has been a "bastion for liberal arts" for the last several decades. Perhaps for a century.

This seems snide and unfounded (and doesn't track with my experience with IWU). What are you basing this on?

A simple check of IPEDS completion data; out of 389 graduates in FY 2019:


So nearly 50% graduated with occupational training degrees. The only "liberal arts" field with a significant number of graduates is biology, with 45. The university has had a nursing program since 1923. I don't know when "business" majors started.

In FY 2019 it had negative net revenue of $7.5 million on total expenses of $75.6 million. In other words, a 10% budget deficit. Similar to the year before. Its FTE enrollment has collapsed by at least 20% since the 2008 recession. Either IWU focuses on what brings students through the doors or it goes bankrupt.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 06, 2020, 04:09:17 AM
Doane University:

https://www.1011now.com/2020/10/05/doane-university-president-announces-recommendation-to-cut-numerous-programs/ (https://www.1011now.com/2020/10/05/doane-university-president-announces-recommendation-to-cut-numerous-programs/).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 06, 2020, 04:55:52 AM
Quote from: dismalist on October 05, 2020, 04:11:12 PM
Small places apart, this is also an intertemporal problem.

And, indeed, some 50 graduate programs are pausing

https://www.chronicle.com/article/more-doctoral-programs-suspend-admissions-that-could-have-lasting-effects-on-graduate-education (https://www.chronicle.com/article/more-doctoral-programs-suspend-admissions-that-could-have-lasting-effects-on-graduate-education)

Could help solve a lot  of perceived iniquities among current academics, including the adjunct/tenured faculty ratio, low wages for certain disciplines, and so on.

Of course, some costs fall on the current generation of potential entrants.


If this keeps out a bunch of people who would have paid out=of=pocket, it's actually saving money for those.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on October 06, 2020, 05:00:55 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 06, 2020, 04:55:52 AM
Quote from: dismalist on October 05, 2020, 04:11:12 PM
Small places apart, this is also an intertemporal problem.

And, indeed, some 50 graduate programs are pausing

https://www.chronicle.com/article/more-doctoral-programs-suspend-admissions-that-could-have-lasting-effects-on-graduate-education (https://www.chronicle.com/article/more-doctoral-programs-suspend-admissions-that-could-have-lasting-effects-on-graduate-education)

Could help solve a lot  of perceived iniquities among current academics, including the adjunct/tenured faculty ratio, low wages for certain disciplines, and so on.

Of course, some costs fall on the current generation of potential entrants.


If this keeps out a bunch of people who would have paid out=of=pocket, it's actually saving money for those.

Agreed. Plus given how dire the job market for all disciplines this year, it's probably a good idea to pause new intakes into grad programs for a year or two so new PhDs on the market now can get a decent job.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 06, 2020, 05:04:06 PM
Quote from: picard on October 06, 2020, 05:00:55 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 06, 2020, 04:55:52 AM
Quote from: dismalist on October 05, 2020, 04:11:12 PM
Small places apart, this is also an intertemporal problem.

And, indeed, some 50 graduate programs are pausing

https://www.chronicle.com/article/more-doctoral-programs-suspend-admissions-that-could-have-lasting-effects-on-graduate-education (https://www.chronicle.com/article/more-doctoral-programs-suspend-admissions-that-could-have-lasting-effects-on-graduate-education)

Could help solve a lot  of perceived iniquities among current academics, including the adjunct/tenured faculty ratio, low wages for certain disciplines, and so on.

Of course, some costs fall on the current generation of potential entrants.


If this keeps out a bunch of people who would have paid out=of=pocket, it's actually saving money for those.

Agreed. Plus given how dire the job market for all disciplines this year, it's probably a good idea to pause new intakes into grad programs for a year or two so new PhDs on the market now can get a decent job.

In other words, the cost of years of underemployment may not fall on as many in the current generation of potential entrants.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on October 06, 2020, 06:13:32 PM
Correct!

But will they be kicked in the pants to find something to make them better off, or not? Some kicks in the pants just hurt.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on October 08, 2020, 12:46:14 PM
Ithaca expects to cut 130 faculty positions, including some tenured, and close departments.
https://theithacan.org/news/ic-to-cut-130-faculty-positions-due-to-low-enrollment/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 09, 2020, 11:07:15 AM
Quote from: spork on October 04, 2020, 03:22:43 PM
Adrian College in the news again:

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/2020/10/03/adrian-college-football-game-covid-19-michigan/3611730001/ (https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/2020/10/03/adrian-college-football-game-covid-19-michigan/3611730001/).

Forty-eight sports teams for an enrollment of fewer than 2,000 students.

Quote from: spork on September 03, 2020, 11:00:19 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 03, 2020, 10:30:37 AM
It's just... you'd think some minimal planning and consultation would take place before a decision like that gets made, so that you wouldn't have to reverse course once you realize that you can't call yourself a liberal arts university without any liberal arts subjects.

Not directed at you -- I wish people, especially an institution's own faculty and administrators, would stop using this terminology because it isn't supported by evidence. According to IPEDS, Adrian awarded 319 bachelor's degrees in FY 2019. Of these, the top majors:

  • Business: 76
  • Recreation and fitness studies: 56
  • Education: 21
  • Social services: 21
  • Criminal justice: 17
  • Communications: 14
  • Health professions: 13
That's 218 graduates or 68% from just seven occupational training programs (there are others I didn't include). In comparison:

  • Math: 4
  • Philosophy and religion: 0
  • English: 4
  • Foreign languages: 1
  • History: 2
Adrian is yet another one of those low-enrollment schools that was founded as a church-affiliated institution for theological training that now relies on, I assume, attracting mediocre students to a mediocre business program. It probably hasn't been a "liberal arts college" for the last 75 years.

Quote from: spork on September 01, 2020, 03:39:07 AM
Adrian had positive net revenue through FY 2018, but its undergraduate FTE declined by ~ 20% from FY 2007 to FY 2018. My guess is that enrollment continued to drop and someone realized that the college had far too many faculty given the number of students.

I need to correct a mistake that I made above. Adrian's undergraduate FTE in FY 2019 was about the same as it was in FY 2013, a little under 1,700. But in FY 2007 it was only 1,025. So a huge relative increase since pre-2008 recession. I have no idea where I got that 20% decline from, maybe I was looking at another college on IPEDS and didn't realize it.

It looks like Adrian grew its enrollment by investing heavily in athletics -- a team for every student and a student for every team. Maybe that explains why its graduation rate is 51% and its 1st-to-2nd-year retention rate is 68%.

I bring all this up because Adrian is promoting a curriculum-delivery-through-consortium arrangement, the content of which is not history, philosophy, religious studies, etc. -- the programs that were but apparently are not now slated for elimination.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 11, 2020, 02:39:44 AM
Ithaca College "can't furlough enough staff to make up for the shortfalls, nor increase enrollment enough to keep the same number of faculty employed."

https://www.chronicle.com/article/2020-has-been-a-hard-year-for-higher-ed-could-2021-be-worse (https://www.chronicle.com/article/2020-has-been-a-hard-year-for-higher-ed-could-2021-be-worse)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on October 11, 2020, 11:15:01 AM
Quote from: spork on October 11, 2020, 02:39:44 AM
Ithaca College "can't furlough enough staff to make up for the shortfalls, nor increase enrollment enough to keep the same number of faculty employed."

https://www.chronicle.com/article/2020-has-been-a-hard-year-for-higher-ed-could-2021-be-worse (https://www.chronicle.com/article/2020-has-been-a-hard-year-for-higher-ed-could-2021-be-worse)

The last line of that article likely reflects the attitude of many administrators this year.

"We can't delay," [Ithaca's Provost Cornish] said, " that would be kicking the can down the road, and we're not going to kick the can anymore. [emphasis added]

Looks like Ithaca's administrators realize they've been playing a delaying game. They're going to try to use the pandemic as the shock that gets stakeholders to realize major change is necessary, since their sector of higher education is contracting. I expect that small colleges who don't take similar attitudes will be gone or on life support in five years. Larger colleges need to be re-thinking every aspect of their programs, too, because parents and students who've paid for a year or two of socially distanced education may be less like to be willing to pay for the "college experience" as it developed in the USA in the post WWII era.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on October 12, 2020, 09:01:47 AM
Quote from: Vkw10 on October 08, 2020, 12:46:14 PM
Ithaca expects to cut 130 faculty positions, including some tenured, and close departments.
https://theithacan.org/news/ic-to-cut-130-faculty-positions-due-to-low-enrollment/

Worth noting that that's 1/3 of faculty.

Speaking of cutting faculty by a third, Roehampton (UK) is cutting 1/3 of its humanities faculty (25/75). Staff at the university are saying it's mostly due to enrollment losses to fancier universities as a result of the government's pandemic planning for higher education. I don't have an up-to-date story to share (there was a THE story back in May, but things have developed quite a bit since then), just a petition (https://www.change.org/p/university-of-roehampton-stop-3-2-million-cuts-to-arts-humanities-at-university-of-roehampton) that's doing the rounds. It contains some of the info, but not all.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on October 12, 2020, 11:59:13 AM
Roughly speaking, I'd say Ithaca likely has a 10M + shortfall.  Cutting retirement matching funds for everybody at the school (if they even still have them) could have covered a good fraction of that, and then a universal pay cut of 2-5% could have taken them much of the rest of the way. They probably figure with some teeny and shrinking programs, it was more worth it (to the College!) to preserve benefits and salaries by firing people (of course that just lowers 130 people's salary and benefits to zero) ! Or, they've already done what I mention, and so, there was nothing left to do but reduce staffing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on October 12, 2020, 02:48:47 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on October 12, 2020, 11:59:13 AM
Roughly speaking, I'd say Ithaca likely has a 10M + shortfall.  Cutting retirement matching funds for everybody at the school (if they even still have them) could have covered a good fraction of that, and then a universal pay cut of 2-5% could have taken them much of the rest of the way. They probably figure with some teeny and shrinking programs, it was more worth it (to the College!) to preserve benefits and salaries by firing people (of course that just lowers 130 people's salary and benefits to zero) ! Or, they've already done what I mention, and so, there was nothing left to do but reduce staffing.

Before Covid, Ithaca College was implementing a strategic plan for better alignment between offerings and students.  It's pretty clear that the current situation is not just cuts for a dollar amount to fill a one-time gap.

Quote
"But the number of staff and faculty who take those voluntary reductions will not necessarily impact the overall number of involuntary reductions, most of which are based on changes in business need. Both are necessary in order to preserve the college's long-term future," Maley said.

Source: https://ithacavoice.com/2020/04/ithaca-college-announce-staffing-reductions-planning-in-person-august-commencement/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on October 12, 2020, 02:49:45 PM
Ohio Wesleyan is also making changes:

   https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/education/2020/10/12/ohio-wesleyan-cuts-18-majors-including-journalism-after-review/3635864001/

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on October 12, 2020, 03:19:26 PM
Quote from: mamselle on October 12, 2020, 02:49:45 PM
Ohio Wesleyan is also making changes:

   https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/education/2020/10/12/ohio-wesleyan-cuts-18-majors-including-journalism-after-review/3635864001/

M.

College scorecard (https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/school/?204909-Ohio-Wesleyan-University) claims 54 undergrad majors currently.  With only 1500 students, 50 majors sounds like a lot, especially when the top 10 majors by annual number of graduates is 53 (psychology) down to 13 (health/medical preparatory).  That looks a lot like OWU only needs perhaps 15-20 undergraduate majors.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on October 13, 2020, 06:41:38 AM

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/10/13/cornish-college-arts-declares-financial-emergency-and-exigency

According to the article, Cornish enrolled about 600 students last fall.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 13, 2020, 07:28:16 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on October 13, 2020, 06:41:38 AM

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/10/13/cornish-college-arts-declares-financial-emergency-and-exigency

According to the article, Cornish enrolled about 600 students last fall.

Negative net revenue on Form 990s for FYs 2016-2018. The only reason it had positive net revenue in FY 2015 was because it sold off $10 million in assets. The school is doomed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on October 14, 2020, 07:39:15 PM
Head of New England Commission of Higher Education gives a stark finances reality check in an IHE piece:
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/10/13/head-regional-accrediting-agency-offers-guidance-institutions-potentially-financial
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 15, 2020, 08:50:17 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on October 14, 2020, 07:39:15 PM
Head of New England Commission of Higher Education gives a stark finances reality check in an IHE piece:
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/10/13/head-regional-accrediting-agency-offers-guidance-institutions-potentially-financial

The writer expresses a belief that most institutions of higher education will survive--but that they'll likely need to make some uncongenial choices about changing their business models.  Which presumably means more of the sort of retrenchment with faculty layoffs, program and major closures, etc. that we've been seeing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 15, 2020, 12:27:13 PM
Quote from: apl68 on October 15, 2020, 08:50:17 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on October 14, 2020, 07:39:15 PM
Head of New England Commission of Higher Education gives a stark finances reality check in an IHE piece:
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/10/13/head-regional-accrediting-agency-offers-guidance-institutions-potentially-financial

The writer expresses a belief that most institutions of higher education will survive--but that they'll likely need to make some uncongenial choices about changing their business models.  Which presumably means more of the sort of retrenchment with faculty layoffs, program and major closures, etc. that we've been seeing.

I got the sense that Trustees were the main target of that article. He thought a lot of them were not paying attention to the finances at all, and often discovered too late that the place was in a deep hole and dropping quickly. Or they were generally aware of the problem, but hired a string of presidents who were not empowered to change the business strategy to something sustainable. Or they'd bring one in who would try to make drastic unilateral changes that resulted in revolt.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on October 16, 2020, 04:19:38 AM
Having formerly been at a (now closed) NECHE school where the board did exactly that ... my interpretation was the same. The board has a fiscal and long-term responsibility, and some of this stuff is just black and white.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 17, 2020, 04:51:04 PM
Quote from: spork on September 25, 2020, 09:01:14 AM
Keuka College, negative net revenue FYs 2015-2018:

https://www.fingerlakesdailynews.com/2020/09/23/633774/ (https://www.fingerlakesdailynews.com/2020/09/23/633774/).

Keuka was Covid-free for a lot of the semester. But a single off-campus party on October 3 served as a superspreader event with 70 positive cases  (https://fingerlakes1.com/2020/10/15/update-officials-more-cases-of-covid-19-confirmed-at-keuka-college-cluster-connected-to-large-off-campus-gathering/)and growing as of October 15. As a result the campus has closed and they are sending everyone home. That turn of events may prevent the party-goers (and many others) from graduating from Keuka. They don't have the financial buffer to withstand a shut down.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on October 19, 2020, 07:34:42 AM
Follow-up article to the New England Commission of Higher Education report on enrollments.

Lasell University in Newton is mentioned in the article.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/10/16/metro/enrollment-plummeted-many-new-england-colleges/

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on October 22, 2020, 08:46:43 AM
Florida A&M: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/10/22/lawsuit-florida-am-pushed-out-cfo-who-flagged-athletics-deficits
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sonoamused on October 23, 2020, 01:52:21 PM
Quote from: Vkw10 on October 11, 2020, 11:15:01 AM
Quote from: spork on October 11, 2020, 02:39:44 AM
Ithaca College "can't furlough enough staff to make up for the shortfalls, nor increase enrollment enough to keep the same number of faculty employed."

https://www.chronicle.com/article/2020-has-been-a-hard-year-for-higher-ed-could-2021-be-worse (https://www.chronicle.com/article/2020-has-been-a-hard-year-for-higher-ed-could-2021-be-worse)

The last line of that article likely reflects the attitude of many administrators this year.

"We can't delay," [Ithaca's Provost Cornish] said, " that would be kicking the can down the road, and we're not going to kick the can anymore. [emphasis added]

Looks like Ithaca's administrators realize they've been playing a delaying game. They're going to try to use the pandemic as the shock that gets stakeholders to realize major change is necessary, since their sector of higher education is contracting. I expect that small colleges who don't take similar attitudes will be gone or on life support in five years. Larger colleges need to be re-thinking every aspect of their programs, too, because parents and students who've paid for a year or two of socially distanced education may be less like to be willing to pay for the "college experience" as it developed in the USA in the post WWII era.

Follow up: they are letting go at least 100 faculty; with 130 jobs going entirely.  Given the overall enrollment drop,  it looks like they were ratio-wise, overstaffed.  https://www.ithaca.com/news/ithaca-college-to-cut-130-positions/article_623d2e7a-0cc8-11eb-9772-f382e829aca4.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 23, 2020, 02:25:19 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on October 22, 2020, 08:46:43 AM
Florida A&M: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/10/22/lawsuit-florida-am-pushed-out-cfo-who-flagged-athletics-deficits

Over a decade ago when I would see NCAA compliance data, there were only a handful of universities regularly showing "profitable" athletic programs. For the SEC, this was usually Alabama and Auburn. I know that Florida A&M is in some other, less famous conference.

Florida A&M's CFO was probably being told to cook the books and refused.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on October 23, 2020, 02:49:09 PM
Quote from: spork on October 23, 2020, 02:25:19 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on October 22, 2020, 08:46:43 AM
Florida A&M: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/10/22/lawsuit-florida-am-pushed-out-cfo-who-flagged-athletics-deficits

Over a decade ago when I would see NCAA compliance data, there were only a handful of universities regularly showing "profitable" athletic programs. For the SEC, this was usually Alabama and Auburn. I know that Florida A&M is in some other, less famous conference.

Florida A&M's CFO was probably being told to cook the books and refused.

I would take all the conditionals out of your concluding sentence.

From 2014: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/growth-division-i-athletics-expenses-outpaces-revenue-increases
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 23, 2020, 03:35:44 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on October 23, 2020, 02:49:09 PM
Quote from: spork on October 23, 2020, 02:25:19 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on October 22, 2020, 08:46:43 AM
Florida A&M: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/10/22/lawsuit-florida-am-pushed-out-cfo-who-flagged-athletics-deficits

Over a decade ago when I would see NCAA compliance data, there were only a handful of universities regularly showing "profitable" athletic programs. For the SEC, this was usually Alabama and Auburn. I know that Florida A&M is in some other, less famous conference.

Florida A&M's CFO was probably being told to cook the books and refused.

I would take all the conditionals out of your concluding sentence.

From 2014: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/growth-division-i-athletics-expenses-outpaces-revenue-increases

"But at the median Division I school, the athletics budget rose more quickly than the institutional budget, requiring the athletics department to take a larger percentage of institutional funds."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on October 23, 2020, 03:41:23 PM
Quote
"But at the median Division I school, the athletics budget rose more quickly than the institutional budget, requiring the athletics department to take a larger percentage of institutional funds."

That's a lovely use of the word "requiring"! No one decided; it just happened, as it was required.

[The share of our household spending on wine rose, for it was required.] :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on October 24, 2020, 08:15:28 AM
Not dire, but Harvard is operating at a loss this year with suspended job searches: https://insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/10/23/harvard-posts-operating-loss-amid-pandemic-net-assets-still-grow

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 02, 2020, 02:07:58 AM
PASSHE campuses -- more than 100 full-time faculty will lose their jobs:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/11/02/pa-state-system-lay-more-100-faculty-members (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/11/02/pa-state-system-lay-more-100-faculty-members).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on November 02, 2020, 03:59:23 AM
That's a suggestive hyperlink....

(And when I first typed that, it came out hyperkink)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 02, 2020, 05:30:43 AM
Quote from: spork on November 02, 2020, 02:07:58 AM
PASSHE campuses -- more than 100 full-time faculty will lose their jobs:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/11/02/pa-state-system-lay-more-100-faculty-members (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/11/02/pa-state-system-lay-more-100-faculty-members).

Buried at the end of the article is the statement that the system is consolidating 6 institutions into 2 institutions.  That indicates this first wave of 100 faculty members being fired is just the beginning...well, if the system is serious about consolidation to better meet students' needs and better using the state resources.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on November 02, 2020, 07:39:14 AM
So how will they decide who of the duplicated faculty to let go? Let's say across those 6 campuses you have 12 faculty who teach American Government Systems. Now you only need 5-6 as they can teach larger classes. How do you decide who stays and who goes? It is just luck of geography? Those at the remaining 2 campuses stay put? Or will there be some sort of evaluation of who is the "best" to retain?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 02, 2020, 11:39:57 AM
All great questions.

It will be interesting to see how this falls out, especially when online/remote education is no longer the terrible choice that legitimate institutions should avoid.

It makes me wonder how many programs that can be done well online will just be cut from in-person.

I wonder how many decisions will be something like paying a deal with one of the big online providers (ASU, SNHU) to provide gen ed courses that don't have to be all that good.

It makes me wonder how fast some of those gen ed requirements will be eliminated or modified when there's no money in it for the institutions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 02, 2020, 02:59:57 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 02, 2020, 11:39:57 AM
It makes me wonder how fast some of those gen ed requirements will be eliminated or modified when there's no money in it for the institutions.

That thought will bring us around to the "completely restructured" thread. Will we see new two-year schools offering only upper-division courses for those to took care of the prerequisites elsewhere?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 02, 2020, 04:41:59 PM
Quote from: Hibush on November 02, 2020, 02:59:57 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 02, 2020, 11:39:57 AM
It makes me wonder how fast some of those gen ed requirements will be eliminated or modified when there's no money in it for the institutions.

That thought will bring us around to the "completely restructured" thread. Will we see new two-year schools offering only upper-division courses for those to took care of the prerequisites elsewhere?

We don't need new schools; the good 4-year institutions already are accepting the students with dual credit, dual enrollment, and AP credit to start as sophomores or more.

The elite institutions often don't accept those alternatives, but the reports from elites are they don't have checkbox gen eds staffed by the armies of adjuncts, either.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on November 02, 2020, 08:22:49 PM
We try to give folks just about as much dual enrollment and AP credit as we can. I've had several advisees entering as first year students , but who could have likely strategically graduated in 2 years. None did so, though some graduated in three or three and a half.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: onthefringe on November 02, 2020, 09:01:03 PM
Where I am the vast majority of traditional aged students who enroll out of high school (which represents about 70% of our student body) have at least a semester worth of credits under their belt when they walk on campus, and fully 30% have a year or more. Generally speaking those credits will fulfill actual graduation requirements (general education and/or major prereqs). A vanishingly small number of those students graduate in less than 4 years. They mostly use the credits to allow them to either double major or to take multiple "light" semesters while they are here. The way our tuition is structured this does not save them any money. So we, at least, are mostly seeing students who want the full, four year "college experience".
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 02, 2020, 09:20:17 PM
Quote from: onthefringe on November 02, 2020, 09:01:03 PM
Where I am the vast majority of traditional aged students who enroll out of high school (which represents about 70% of our student body) have at least a semester worth of credits under their belt when they walk on campus, and fully 30% have a year or more. Generally speaking those credits will fulfill actual graduation requirements (general education and/or major prereqs). A vanishingly small number of those students graduate in less than 4 years. They mostly use the credits to allow them to either double major or to take multiple "light" semesters while they are here. The way our tuition is structured this does not save them any money. So we, at least, are mostly seeing students who want the full, four year "college experience".

Dear, dear onthefringe,

It's hard to make this plausible, but there's too much money around.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 03, 2020, 05:27:57 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on November 02, 2020, 09:01:03 PM
Where I am the vast majority of traditional aged students who enroll out of high school (which represents about 70% of our student body) have at least a semester worth of credits under their belt when they walk on campus, and fully 30% have a year or more. Generally speaking those credits will fulfill actual graduation requirements (general education and/or major prereqs). A vanishingly small number of those students graduate in less than 4 years. They mostly use the credits to allow them to either double major or to take multiple "light" semesters while they are here. The way our tuition is structured this does not save them any money. So we, at least, are mostly seeing students who want the full, four year "college experience".

Yep.  I bet your institution also is selective enough to build an incoming class from the qualified applicants instead of sighing heavily in June, lowering the bar again, and sending letters that explain how to appeal the admissions decision from April in a desperate attempt to have enough warm bodies in the fall to only lose a little money on the projected budget.

Watching how two young relatives who went to an elite HS have been navigating college has been pretty interesting.  One did use her credits to have a couple light semesters so she could have essentially multiple full-time internships on the other side of the country from her institution and take only a couple online courses to progress.  The other had one light semester for an internship and did graduate a term early to take an excellent job that was offered to him because of that internship.

In contrast, Super Dinky was in bad shape in the past ten years in part because they weren't transfer friendly (e.g., the gen ed requirements could not be fully met through transfer credits and thus even people with associate's degrees were still taking more gen eds even into last term of senior year).  Students who did their research seldom came to Super Dinky, except in niche majors where SD had a substantial fraction of the seats in the state.

Yet SD admitted increasing numbers of first-year students who either needed serious remediation (taught out of the tutoring center by staff with faculty status as part of their normal duties) or were skipping most of the expected first-year curriculum taught by full-time faculty due to their AP/dual credit.  One really memorable fall had almost no freshman comp sections because two-thirds of the entering class needed remediation (not taught by the regular English faculty) and most of the other third had already met that requirement before arriving.

People who needed serious remediation often left before getting to the gen ed courses offered at SD or those students stepped up and followed the advice to take summer courses elsewhere to stay on track to graduate in four years or less, which was another loss of revenue.  Either way, SD was losing revenue because gen ed was no longer a sure enrollment.

At one desperate point, SD did become more transfer friendly going so far as to accept up to 90 credits towards degree and changing the gen ed program.  Having several extra seniors living off campus didn't do nearly as much for the revenue as hoped to offset the new frosh who were finishing early by skipping gen ed or the additional cost in having new frosh who were taking developmental courses and then skipping gen ed through outside credit.

The primary bright spot was the athletes who wanted to be on campus for as long as they could maintain eligibility and many of them did manage four years of college experience.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 04, 2020, 05:37:24 AM
We haven't discussed Marquette University yet:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/11/04/marquette-faces-student-and-faculty-pushback-planned-cuts

Quote
Administration officials have said that while the COVID-19 pandemic has exacerbated financial challenges, much of the $45 million shortfall it has predicted by 2022 can be traced to demographic changes and lower birth rates in its traditional cohort. This year the university is 424 students short of where it needs to be for its budget, meaning that it has only about 1,650 students in its freshman class. The university is predicting that next year's enrollment will be down another 250 students. Total enrollment is now about 11,550. Total operating expenditure in fiscal year 2019 was $442.39 million.

<snip>

"The university's temporary mitigating actions, including merit suspension, 403(b) suspension, leadership pay decreases and discretionary spend reductions are simply not sustainable," a university spokesperson said via email. "To truly address the challenges ahead and position Marquette for a strong future, the university must thoughtfully and strategically identify more permanent solutions, such as headcount reductions among staff and faculty."

How deep those reductions will go and whom they will target is still being decided, but officials have said it may be in the ballpark of 225 to 300 faculty and staff layoffs. In April, the university reported it had just under 3,000 employees. Faculty said they've been told the College of Arts and Sciences could be cut by 25 percent.

In Sept. 2019 (i.e., prior to COVID), Marquette University was shedding positions ( https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2019/09/05/marquette-lays-off-24-faculty-and-staff-leaves-50-positions-unfilled/2225523001/) with more planned.

It's kinda weird to be outraged now about a lack of transparency, when letters were sent to the Marquette community more than a year ago about the looming demographic crisis with employee reductions necessary and that was before anyone knew about the additional COVID crisis.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 04, 2020, 07:14:16 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on November 02, 2020, 07:39:14 AM
So how will they decide who of the duplicated faculty to let go? Let's say across those 6 campuses you have 12 faculty who teach American Government Systems. Now you only need 5-6 as they can teach larger classes. How do you decide who stays and who goes? It is just luck of geography? Those at the remaining 2 campuses stay put? Or will there be some sort of evaluation of who is the "best" to retain?

I would guess that there will be a lot of negotiation over which campuses get to keep what faculty, with much of the outcome being determined by various political factors.  Political considerations will probably mean that no campuses are shut down entirely.  But some of them may end up seriously downgraded in terms of what level of majors and services they can still offer.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 05, 2020, 09:55:21 PM
The four state colleges in Vermont are still in bad shape: https://vtdigger.org/2020/10/29/vermonts-state-colleges-will-get-through-this-year-but-the-next-year-looks-grim/

For those who don't remember:

https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/2020/04/17/vermont-state-colleges-could-close-three-campuses-chancellor-says/5153004002/

https://vtdigger.org/2019/05/05/college-enrollment-crisis-hitting-vermont-especially-hard/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 08, 2020, 09:04:56 AM
Rider University has adopted a policy of paying bills at about 60 days as a response to cash flow: https://www.theridernews.com/university-revenue-shortages-contribute-to-delay-in-pay-invoices/

For those who don't know, that's a big red financial flag, much worse than making temporary cuts in pay or staffing levels.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on November 08, 2020, 09:21:23 AM
Yeah, I worked A/P (Acct's Payable) at a hospital once that was doing that. We all started looking for other jobs when they went to 90 days out.

Somehow, they pulled it together, though, and they're still operating.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jonadam on November 08, 2020, 10:15:27 PM
I sincerely hope a nearby school can absorb Westminster Choir College, the beleaguered conservatory attached to Rider, because Rider University is doing a great job of ensuring that it will no longer exist in about five years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 09, 2020, 05:47:44 AM
Quote from: jonadam on November 08, 2020, 10:15:27 PM
I sincerely hope a nearby school can absorb Westminster Choir College, the beleaguered conservatory attached to Rider, because Rider University is doing a great job of ensuring that it will no longer exist in about five years.

If any nearby institution wanted Westminster Choir College, then Rider would have been able to offload it years ago or even last year when it tried.  Instead, a web search with a quick skim indicates that while Rider's effort last year to sell WCC's campus fell through, WCC has been relocated away from that prime land in Princeton, NJ and onto Rider's main campus.  The lawsuits continue, but it's likely that neither WCC nor Rider will be open in 5 years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 09, 2020, 09:59:46 AM
"Guilford College, in North Carolina, plans to eliminate 30 percent of its full-time faculty positions and discontinue nearly half its academic majors" per https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/11/09/guilford-plans-layoffs-tenured-and-visiting-faculty
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 09, 2020, 11:01:52 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 09, 2020, 09:59:46 AM
"Guilford College, in North Carolina, plans to eliminate 30 percent of its full-time faculty positions and discontinue nearly half its academic majors" per https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/11/09/guilford-plans-layoffs-tenured-and-visiting-faculty

Action that drastic, in response to enrollment declines that drastic, doesn't leave one feeling optimistic about their chances.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 09, 2020, 11:13:18 AM
Quote from: apl68 on November 09, 2020, 11:01:52 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 09, 2020, 09:59:46 AM
"Guilford College, in North Carolina, plans to eliminate 30 percent of its full-time faculty positions and discontinue nearly half its academic majors" per https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/11/09/guilford-plans-layoffs-tenured-and-visiting-faculty

Action that drastic, in response to enrollment declines that drastic, doesn't leave one feeling optimistic about their chances.

Yep, truly dire financial straits that are obvious to the most casual observer who is honest.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 11, 2020, 05:38:42 AM
More news from Vermont:  Due to low enrollment, the Albany College of Pharmacy will close its Vermont branch in June (https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Albany-College-of-Pharmacy-to-close-Vermont-15716773.php)


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 11, 2020, 05:42:59 AM
In Arkansas, Henderson State has been approved by the HLC to merge into the Arkansas State University system with contingencies: https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2020/nov/11/college-merger-advances/?news-arkansas
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 11, 2020, 09:44:03 AM
Courtesy of IHE: All employees of Allegheny College will be furloughed for two weeks:

https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/allegheny-college-will-require-all-employees-to-take-a-2-week-furlough/ (https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/allegheny-college-will-require-all-employees-to-take-a-2-week-furlough/).

Allegheny's Form 990s show positive net revenue produced by sales of assets. I assume this is from the sale of investment securities.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on November 11, 2020, 10:21:25 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 11, 2020, 05:38:42 AM
More news from Vermont:  Due to low enrollment, the Albany College of Pharmacy will close its Vermont branch in June (https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Albany-College-of-Pharmacy-to-close-Vermont-15716773.php)

25 years ago there were ~ 70 schools of pharmacy.  Now there are ~ 145.  Every busted ass bible college afraid it could not make payroll in a town big enough to need 2 hookers opened up a pharmacy school.  Student interest and demand for seats in pharmacy has significantly declined in the last 8-10 years, the size of graduating HS classes is shrinking and will bottom out in 2026, and the number of seats available is growing.  Polly can do the math better than me, but even my feeble brain sees this as a looming crisis.  It's a classic Malthusian growth model.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 11, 2020, 10:28:58 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on November 11, 2020, 10:21:25 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 11, 2020, 05:38:42 AM
More news from Vermont:  Due to low enrollment, the Albany College of Pharmacy will close its Vermont branch in June (https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Albany-College-of-Pharmacy-to-close-Vermont-15716773.php)

25 years ago there were ~ 70 schools of pharmacy.  Now there are ~ 145.  Every busted ass bible college afraid it could not make payroll in a town big enough to need 2 hookers opened up a pharmacy school.  Student interest and demand for seats in pharmacy has significantly declined in the last 8-10 years, the size of graduating HS classes is shrinking and will bottom out in 2026, and the number of seats available is growing.  Polly can do the math better than me, but even my feeble brain sees this as a looming crisis.  It's a classic Malthusian growth model.

Albany was one of the first, and their Albany campus is thriving with a robust pipeline to the pharmaceutical industry. What has failed is offering a pharmacy program physically at the University of Vermont. My guess is that serious pharmacy students in Vermont chose to go the few miles to Albany.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on November 11, 2020, 05:08:08 PM
Hey, here's a "new" idea.  Tuition resets are all the rage right now.


Gordon, Houghton and Seattle Pacific are all members of the Council for Christian Colleges & Universities, but spokespeople at each college said they did not consult each other about the tuition resets.
"Our intention was to be the first mover on this," said Mouttet. "


Lol, first mover. Can we all drop the delusion that our school will be the first mover on anything. Everyone is looking to boost graduate enrollments with new, crappy masters and certificate programs. We have all tried to reinvent the general ed curriculum to make it more relevant and to tackle the "big ideas" or the "pressing challenges of our time" (insert your buzzword of choice). We're all doubling down on the liberal arts and professing our commitment to diversity and social justice, however performatively we can sell that idea.

Here is another "new" idea.


The university will need to admit 50 to 75 more students to maintain its net tuition revenue, said Nate Mouttet, vice president for enrollment management and marketing at Seattle Pacific. Gordon's enrollment has increased slightly from year to year, so net tuition revenue should remain steady, Sweeney said.


First, this is WAY easier said than done, especially if you care about retention rates. Just because students can fog a mirror on their admissions application doesn't mean they have what it takes to graduate. Net tuition revenue will fall once they leave the college. They never want to talk about that fact or how they plan to prevent it from happening in the first place. Let's just focus on the temporary boost in applications (2-3 years at the max) until that marketing gimmick wears off and everyone returns to the prior steady state. Nevermind the fact that other schools are trying the exact same strategy, so that's going to undercut the impact as well.  Also, people like rollback prices at Walmart, not when they are buying an educational experience. As we have learned with COVID, the college experience is more than the classwork, and who wants to be perceived as having given their child the Walmart/Dollar Tree level of the college experience? Status matters, even if ability to pay is a real issue. For better or worse, price is a proxy for quality.

One other uncomfortable truth is that the college-bound population is shrinking, so good luck trying to "grow" when everyone else is trying to "grow" their way out of this problem. Then again, they are merely trying to be the "first" to do this.  Bless their hearts.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/11/11/private-colleges-slash-sticker-prices-emphasize-affordability-avoid-blaming-pandemic
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 12, 2020, 01:32:53 AM
Gordon College received $33 million in contributions in FY 2017, resulting in positive net revenue of $24 million. For FY 2018, it was $1 million in the red. In 2019, it received a donation of $75 million. So it will probably be solvent for another few years. But it's not viable on its own.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 12, 2020, 08:07:53 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 11, 2020, 05:42:59 AM
In Arkansas, Henderson State has been approved by the HLC to merge into the Arkansas State University system with contingencies: https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2020/nov/11/college-merger-advances/?news-arkansas

As noted earlier on this thread, the merger with ASU has been in the works for some time.  It will be interesting to see what practical effect this has on Henderson and its educational offerings.  The article notes that they will no longer have their own Board of Trustees.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 15, 2020, 02:15:57 AM
Misericordia University stops awarding tenure:

https://www.timesleader.com/news/809417/no-mercy-at-miseri-faculty-administration-clash-over-tenure-and-layoffs (https://www.timesleader.com/news/809417/no-mercy-at-miseri-faculty-administration-clash-over-tenure-and-layoffs).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 15, 2020, 06:07:47 AM
Quote from: spork on November 15, 2020, 02:15:57 AM
Misericordia University stops awarding tenure:

https://www.timesleader.com/news/809417/no-mercy-at-miseri-faculty-administration-clash-over-tenure-and-layoffs (https://www.timesleader.com/news/809417/no-mercy-at-miseri-faculty-administration-clash-over-tenure-and-layoffs).

Last I checked, tenure itself does not come with additional costs.  The claim that suspension of awarding tenure is somehow related to finances, even while people in their sixth year can apply for promotion and a raise, is weird.

Misericordia looks to be in bad shape according the internet scraping.

Only 2000 students, but also only 43% of faculty are full-time.

83% acceptance rate and 70% graduation rate suggests low standards or a self-filtering group.

$51k sticker price, but $24k average price is bad news with a very high discount rate.

The sales pitch is liberal arts college, but College Scorecard lists the biggest number of degrees as mostly career-related like nursing/allied health/related health, business, and teacher education.  There is an entry of general liberal arts studies in the top 10, but that is not English (7), history (8), math (3), philosophy (4), or chemistry (listed, but 0 for the given year).

It looks a lot like faculty at Misericordia would be better off focusing their efforts on getting a different job, probably not in Pennsylvania higher ed due to the demographic shifts and far too many seats seeking too few students, instead of writing blogs complaining about the suspension of awarding tenure.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 15, 2020, 06:31:01 AM
Misericordia's FTE undergraduate enrollment fell by nearly 20% from FY 2014 to FY 2019. I suspect it fell even more for the fall 2019 incoming cohort. Then the pandemic hit.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on November 15, 2020, 06:49:27 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 15, 2020, 06:07:47 AM
Last I checked, tenure itself does not come with additional costs. 
There can be extra transactional costs for getting rid of people on implicitly permanent contracts.
E.g. extra severance pay may be required; declaring financial exigency to get rid of tenured people may trigger clauses in bonds covenants etc

The college lives up to its name (though, not the meaning they likely thought about): misericorde - a dagger used to deliver a death stroke.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on November 15, 2020, 06:51:45 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 15, 2020, 06:07:47 AM
Quote from: spork on November 15, 2020, 02:15:57 AM
Misericordia University stops awarding tenure:

https://www.timesleader.com/news/809417/no-mercy-at-miseri-faculty-administration-clash-over-tenure-and-layoffs (https://www.timesleader.com/news/809417/no-mercy-at-miseri-faculty-administration-clash-over-tenure-and-layoffs).

Last I checked, tenure itself does not come with additional costs.  The claim that suspension of awarding tenure is somehow related to finances, even while people in their sixth year can apply for promotion and a raise, is weird.
[snipped]
The sales pitch is liberal arts college, but College Scorecard lists the biggest number of degrees as mostly career-related like nursing/allied health/related health, business, and teacher education.  There is an entry of general liberal arts studies in the top 10, but that is not English (7), history (8), math (3), philosophy (4), or chemistry (listed, but 0 for the given year).


Proceeding with promotions and raises but not awarding tenure suggests that board and administration want to make future faculty reductions easier, but are also concerned about retaining some of the faculty due for tenure and promotion. Suppose the T&D class included a nursing, philosophy, history, chemistry, and education assistant professor. Three in disciplines with few majors and many underemployed Ph.D.s, one with many majors and usually easy to find adjuncts to teach one class, and one where recruiting faculty is tough. The university is setting up to reduce faculty selectively over the next few years, so it's a longer-term financial play.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 15, 2020, 09:55:17 AM
See?  Other people do know the big picture. 

Why is that so hard for the people who need to take action for their own jobs to grasp that the red flags are not just being raised, but are flapping wildly in a very hard-to-ignore way?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on November 15, 2020, 10:16:01 AM
Do we know that they aren't? That's not the sort of thing folks are going to advertise.
Many of the senior folks probably can't find other jobs anyway, or at least it would be quite difficult. One thing they can do is help preserve what they have for them and their younger colleagues, should they decide to stay or if the institution lives for more than a couple of years. It may be too late to do anything other than cut, cut , cut and then run, run, run, but its not surprising that some people are working to preserve what they have. I don't think that necessarily means that even a majority a *are not* considering other options.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 15, 2020, 06:20:22 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on November 15, 2020, 10:16:01 AM
Do we know that they aren't?

Depends on who "they" are.  I'd never heard of Misericordia until Spork posted, so I have no insight on those folks in particular.

I have in mind the people (here on the fora and elsewhere) who keep insisting that each of these notices is just a one-off instead of a pattern that is clearly visible outside the elite institutions.

I have in mind the people who seem to be completely ignorant of all the job market realities and higher ed sector largest problems that will affect their jobs, but instead want to focus on the much more comfortable intellectual discussions about the value of a liberal arts education.

I have in mind the people who are sure their job is only to keep something resembling teaching happening for a paycheck instead of needing to know how the business side actually works.

I dearly hope many, many people are quietly applying out for good jobs elsewhere, but that's not the impression from reading Reddit discussions where nearly every week people are still asking questions like "Can I get a full-time faculty job if I get an MA in <humanities> from online diploma mill?  What if I already have one and have been striking out even getting a death-marching adjunct job?  Should I go for an online diploma mill PhD to increase my chances?"
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on November 16, 2020, 06:48:57 AM
Wow, that last category you mention, Polly, seems particularly clueless, but maybe they are just very young and don't know academic norms very well?

As for discussions about liberal arts: I'm all for it so long as it doesn't bankrupt a school for employing someone(s) in a discipline that has zero majors and not even well populated sections for gen end classes. Sadly, that probably goes for my STEM sub-discipline as well (eventually), but so be it if it does.

Obviously the institutional failures and destitute near failures are not one-offs.  I can tell you that in my region there are probably something like 20 schools like mine. Maybe a couple of them are in decent shape. Several very nearly have died in the last few years. We are sort of in the middle, but we know we can't survive if both health disasters+ demographic cliff push us over the sustainability limit, which I think is likely to be hit in under a decades (i.e.., before I was ready to retire (and way before my wife was)!). We have only just started to try to push more popular STEM programs (well, more popular than some we had...they haven't pulled in hordes), cut lines in majors that had zero students major, etc.. 

On the points about respecting the institution's needs as a business: yes, few faculty care, some very outwardly don't care and are dismissive of anybody who does, and still others care a little, but don't know jack, so aren't helpful.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 16, 2020, 08:56:07 AM
Quote from: spork on November 15, 2020, 06:31:01 AM
Misericordia's FTE undergraduate enrollment fell by nearly 20% from FY 2014 to FY 2019. I suspect it fell even more for the fall 2019 incoming cohort. Then the pandemic hit.

Enrollment dropping, only a couple thousand students, and they still have seven Vice Presidents?  Either there's some administrative bloat, or some serious title inflation going on.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on November 16, 2020, 08:58:59 AM
Quote from: apl68 on November 16, 2020, 08:56:07 AM
Quote from: spork on November 15, 2020, 06:31:01 AM
Misericordia's FTE undergraduate enrollment fell by nearly 20% from FY 2014 to FY 2019. I suspect it fell even more for the fall 2019 incoming cohort. Then the pandemic hit.

Enrollment dropping, only a couple thousand students, and they still have seven Vice Presidents?  Either there's some administrative bloat, or some serious title inflation going on.

Imagine what that would mean if you extrapolated to a national government.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Langue_doc on November 16, 2020, 09:41:05 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 16, 2020, 08:58:59 AM
Quote from: apl68 on November 16, 2020, 08:56:07 AM
Quote from: spork on November 15, 2020, 06:31:01 AM
Misericordia's FTE undergraduate enrollment fell by nearly 20% from FY 2014 to FY 2019. I suspect it fell even more for the fall 2019 incoming cohort. Then the pandemic hit.

Enrollment dropping, only a couple thousand students, and they still have seven Vice Presidents?  Either there's some administrative bloat, or some serious title inflation going on.

Imagine what that would mean if you extrapolated to a national government.

Imagine what that would mean if extrapolated to the current government--three kids, one kid-in-law, the out-of-his-mind lawyer, the so-called spokesperson, all co-VPing with the official VP.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but just couldn't resist.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 16, 2020, 09:45:58 AM
Wyoming: https://www.uwyo.edu/uw/news/2020/11/uw-board-of-trustees-approves-budget-reduction-plan.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 16, 2020, 10:09:21 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 16, 2020, 09:45:58 AM
Wyoming: https://www.uwyo.edu/uw/news/2020/11/uw-board-of-trustees-approves-budget-reduction-plan.html

Thanks for the heads up. There are some unusual aspects to this movement.


The arithmetic: The deficit is $21 million per year. Closing majors and laying of the associated faculty and staff will save 2.5 million. Raising tuition 6% will raise 3.2 million. So they are still short about 3/4 of the deficit.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 16, 2020, 10:13:41 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 16, 2020, 08:58:59 AM
Quote from: apl68 on November 16, 2020, 08:56:07 AM
Quote from: spork on November 15, 2020, 06:31:01 AM
Misericordia's FTE undergraduate enrollment fell by nearly 20% from FY 2014 to FY 2019. I suspect it fell even more for the fall 2019 incoming cohort. Then the pandemic hit.

Enrollment dropping, only a couple thousand students, and they still have seven Vice Presidents?  Either there's some administrative bloat, or some serious title inflation going on.

Imagine what that would mean if you extrapolated to a national government.

It's called the former Yugoslavia.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 16, 2020, 10:31:11 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on November 16, 2020, 06:48:57 AM
Wow, that last category you mention, Polly, seems particularly clueless, but maybe they are just very young and don't know academic norms very well?

[. . .]


The age of people in that last category varies widely. They range from clueless undergraduates who are starry-eyed by the thought of teaching the courses they liked taking as students to the middle-aged who are dissatisfied with their home or work lives and who think becoming a professor is the magic elixir of happiness.

Quote

On the points about respecting the institution's needs as a business: yes, few faculty care, some very outwardly don't care and are dismissive of anybody who does, and still others care a little, but don't know jack, so aren't helpful.

Describes my university. The principle that drives curricular design is "how can students be forced to take the courses that I teach?" Cost never enters into the discussion. 


I don't want to leave administrators out of this either. Every few years we get a new one who proposes "engineering" as the solution, when a reputable engineering program that would be competitive with the state flagship that is twenty minutes away would cost at least $100 million to open.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on November 16, 2020, 11:24:05 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 15, 2020, 06:20:22 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on November 15, 2020, 10:16:01 AM
Do we know that they aren't?

Depends on who "they" are.  I'd never heard of Misericordia until Spork posted, so I have no insight on those folks in particular.

I have in mind the people (here on the fora and elsewhere) who keep insisting that each of these notices is just a one-off instead of a pattern that is clearly visible outside the elite institutions.

I have in mind the people who seem to be completely ignorant of all the job market realities and higher ed sector largest problems that will affect their jobs, but instead want to focus on the much more comfortable intellectual discussions about the value of a liberal arts education.

I have in mind the people who are sure their job is only to keep something resembling teaching happening for a paycheck instead of needing to know how the business side actually works.

I dearly hope many, many people are quietly applying out for good jobs elsewhere, but that's not the impression from reading Reddit discussions where nearly every week people are still asking questions like "Can I get a full-time faculty job if I get an MA in <humanities> from online diploma mill?  What if I already have one and have been striking out even getting a death-marching adjunct job?  Should I go for an online diploma mill PhD to increase my chances?"

I know several people who rode the online, for-profit horse into jobs as either faculty or staff.  I know others who work for reputable employers with those qualifications and are successful professionals. 

The hiring practices of academia are so byzantine and confusing as to be incomprehensible for people not already in the system.  We have all seen horrifyingly bad people get hired because they ticked the right box on somebody's diversity and inclusion form, credentials be damned. 

It's easy to make fun of people asking "can I get a job if....." questions,  but they are honest questions from people trying to better themselves.  The fact that they did not research some school's 990's (because they have never heard of such a thing), research the publication records of senior faculty, ask about the rapidity of turnover for administrators, look up a school on IPEDS and all the other "inside baseball" doings of the academy should not be held against them.

I get the "tough love" message, but let's not be careful that it starts to look like contempt.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 16, 2020, 11:49:48 AM
It is not that hard to find out the state of higher ed hiring now with the internet and the voices so loud on how bad the job market is for many fields.  There is no point in my lifetime that going to graduate school in most of the humanities outside the fully funded elite programs was a good idea.  That's not inside baseball; that's basic market research that one should expect from adults.

I am very negative on people who somehow found a discussion board on higher ed and yet somehow didn't read the bazillion threads on the same topic.

Sure, asking the question as a middle-schooler who was asked yesterday to do a report on possible careers makes sense.

Someone who is claiming to be a college graduate who wants to teach critical thinking skills has already failed by asking the question.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on November 16, 2020, 12:10:20 PM
I think the best course of action is to educate people as you encounter them. Let them know how they can get critical information about a school or field. Be a good mentor. Let them know about their options.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 16, 2020, 12:55:58 PM
Quote from: spork on November 16, 2020, 10:31:11 AM
I don't want to leave administrators out of this either. Every few years we get a new one who proposes "engineering" as the solution, when a reputable engineering program that would be competitive with the state flagship that is twenty minutes away would cost at least $100 million to open.

It's remarkable how many people don't seem to understand that certain things are only possible in places or institutions of a certain size.  There are people in our town, which is small and far away from anything the same size or larger, who honestly seem to believe that the reason why we don't have major chain sit-down restaurants and shopping malls is because the local chamber of commerce won't allow anything new to come to town for fear of the competition.  I've been on the Chamber.  They don't have anything like that kind of clout, and in most cases they'd be thrilled to attract a substantial new business to town.  We don't have such things because we just don't have the population to support them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 16, 2020, 02:04:40 PM
Quote from: apl68 on November 16, 2020, 12:55:58 PM
Quote from: spork on November 16, 2020, 10:31:11 AM
I don't want to leave administrators out of this either. Every few years we get a new one who proposes "engineering" as the solution, when a reputable engineering program that would be competitive with the state flagship that is twenty minutes away would cost at least $100 million to open.

It's remarkable how many people don't seem to understand that certain things are only possible in places or institutions of a certain size.  There are people in our town, which is small and far away from anything the same size or larger, who honestly seem to believe that the reason why we don't have major chain sit-down restaurants and shopping malls is because the local chamber of commerce won't allow anything new to come to town for fear of the competition.  I've been on the Chamber.  They don't have anything like that kind of clout, and in most cases they'd be thrilled to attract a substantial new business to town.  We don't have such things because we just don't have the population to support them.

In my little town, this attitude is acknowledged by claiming there is a rumor that we are going to get a Red Lobster. That mark of having arrived as a community is clearly out of reach.

Thankfully, in real life we have leapfrogged the Red-Lobster standard, and seen some rather nice farm-to-table restaurants open.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 16, 2020, 03:13:14 PM
Quote from: Hibush on November 16, 2020, 02:04:40 PM
Quote from: apl68 on November 16, 2020, 12:55:58 PM
Quote from: spork on November 16, 2020, 10:31:11 AM
I don't want to leave administrators out of this either. Every few years we get a new one who proposes "engineering" as the solution, when a reputable engineering program that would be competitive with the state flagship that is twenty minutes away would cost at least $100 million to open.

It's remarkable how many people don't seem to understand that certain things are only possible in places or institutions of a certain size.  There are people in our town, which is small and far away from anything the same size or larger, who honestly seem to believe that the reason why we don't have major chain sit-down restaurants and shopping malls is because the local chamber of commerce won't allow anything new to come to town for fear of the competition.  I've been on the Chamber.  They don't have anything like that kind of clout, and in most cases they'd be thrilled to attract a substantial new business to town.  We don't have such things because we just don't have the population to support them.

In my little town, this attitude is acknowledged by claiming there is a rumor that we are going to get a Red Lobster. That mark of having arrived as a community is clearly out of reach.

Thankfully, in real life we have leapfrogged the Red-Lobster standard, and seen some rather nice farm-to-table restaurants open.

When I was an undergrad the town where Alma Mater was located got a Taco Bell.  It was the talk of the campus for weeks!  We did not have a very big college town.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on November 16, 2020, 03:21:10 PM
Quote from: apl68 on November 16, 2020, 03:13:14 PM
Quote from: Hibush on November 16, 2020, 02:04:40 PM
Quote from: apl68 on November 16, 2020, 12:55:58 PM
Quote from: spork on November 16, 2020, 10:31:11 AM
I don't want to leave administrators out of this either. Every few years we get a new one who proposes "engineering" as the solution, when a reputable engineering program that would be competitive with the state flagship that is twenty minutes away would cost at least $100 million to open.

It's remarkable how many people don't seem to understand that certain things are only possible in places or institutions of a certain size.  There are people in our town, which is small and far away from anything the same size or larger, who honestly seem to believe that the reason why we don't have major chain sit-down restaurants and shopping malls is because the local chamber of commerce won't allow anything new to come to town for fear of the competition.  I've been on the Chamber.  They don't have anything like that kind of clout, and in most cases they'd be thrilled to attract a substantial new business to town.  We don't have such things because we just don't have the population to support them.

In my little town, this attitude is acknowledged by claiming there is a rumor that we are going to get a Red Lobster. That mark of having arrived as a community is clearly out of reach.

Thankfully, in real life we have leapfrogged the Red-Lobster standard, and seen some rather nice farm-to-table restaurants open.

When I was an undergrad the town where Alma Mater was located got a Taco Bell.  It was the talk of the campus for weeks!  We did not have a very big college town.

At one point, Artem-town was apparently the largest city in the US without a Starbucks.  That concern has since been rectified, but the local independent coffee shop on the edge of campus is far superior to Starbucks anyway, so who cares.  Only place I ever go to Starbuck is in an airport where my choices are more limited.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 17, 2020, 09:01:58 AM
Iowa's small private rural Clarke has seen enrollment decline from 949 to 659 in six years. Those numbers really ring the dire-straits bell.

They just announced  (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/11/17/private-iowa-college-partners-all-states-community-colleges-transfer)a vastly expanded transfer program from CCs. As ambitious as the program sounds, the hope is that it will increase the number of junior transfers from 100 to 160 per year.

That is a small increase, but my guesstimate on the demographics is that the majority of alumni will be transfers.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 17, 2020, 10:15:52 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 17, 2020, 09:01:58 AM
Iowa's small private rural Clarke has seen enrollment decline from 949 to 659 in six years. Those numbers really ring the dire-straits bell.

They just announced  (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/11/17/private-iowa-college-partners-all-states-community-colleges-transfer)a vastly expanded transfer program from CCs. As ambitious as the program sounds, the hope is that it will increase the number of junior transfers from 100 to 160 per year.

That is a small increase, but my guesstimate on the demographics is that the majority of alumni will be transfers.

A couple of thoughts:

Those are definitely scary numbers for them!

A student body consisting largely of transfer students from junior colleges is likely to be able to offer far less of the traditional on-campus college experience.  Which reduces one of the main draws of a small four-year college.  I don't see why students starting out at a junior college would transfer anywhere other than the closest, cheapest public school, unless they felt that the public carried a stigma, or wanted to go to a private school with a desired religious affiliation.

If I hadn't heard that Super Dinky was now closed, I'd strongly suspect Clarke of being Super Dinky....
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2020, 01:18:56 PM
Wichita State has problems, but let's add this salt to the faculty wounds: https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/30335808/wichita-state-men-basketball-coach-gregg-marshall-resigns-investigation
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 17, 2020, 01:21:34 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2020, 01:18:56 PM
Wichita State has problems, but let's add this salt to the faculty wounds: https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/30335808/wichita-state-men-basketball-coach-gregg-marshall-resigns-investigation

Their dire finances won't be helped in that "The school and Marshall agreed to a contract settlement of $7.75 million to be paid over the next six years."

If the coach were paying that back to the school, it would be another story.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2020, 03:45:31 PM
Quote from: Hibush on November 17, 2020, 01:21:34 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2020, 01:18:56 PM
Wichita State has problems, but let's add this salt to the faculty wounds: https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/30335808/wichita-state-men-basketball-coach-gregg-marshall-resigns-investigation

Their dire finances won't be helped in that "The school and Marshall agreed to a contract settlement of $7.75 million to be paid over the next six years."

If the coach were paying that back to the school, it would be another story.

Yeah, that's why I posted it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: hazelshade on November 18, 2020, 07:03:53 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 17, 2020, 09:01:58 AM
Iowa's small private rural Clarke has seen enrollment decline from 949 to 659 in six years. Those numbers really ring the dire-straits bell.

They just announced  (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/11/17/private-iowa-college-partners-all-states-community-colleges-transfer)a vastly expanded transfer program from CCs. As ambitious as the program sounds, the hope is that it will increase the number of junior transfers from 100 to 160 per year.

That is a small increase, but my guesstimate on the demographics is that the majority of alumni will be transfers.

Man, today is the day I feel I've finally earned my small-town cred, because I read this first sentence and was like, "Rural?? It's in Dubuque, for chrissakes!"
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on November 18, 2020, 07:19:29 AM
Quote from: hazelshade on November 18, 2020, 07:03:53 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 17, 2020, 09:01:58 AM
Iowa's small private rural Clarke has seen enrollment decline from 949 to 659 in six years. Those numbers really ring the dire-straits bell.

They just announced  (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/11/17/private-iowa-college-partners-all-states-community-colleges-transfer)a vastly expanded transfer program from CCs. As ambitious as the program sounds, the hope is that it will increase the number of junior transfers from 100 to 160 per year.

That is a small increase, but my guesstimate on the demographics is that the majority of alumni will be transfers.

Man, today is the day I feel I've finally earned my small-town cred, because I read this first sentence and was like, "Rural?? It's in Dubuque, for chrissakes!"

And I, my "Music Man" kid's band cred...(two community player's groups did the show when I was in 7th and 8th grades, so I was in it twice...)

As soon as I saw that, I sang to myself, "Dubuque, Des Moines, Davenport, Marshaltown, Mason City, Keokuk, Ames, Clear Lake...Got to give Iowa a try!"

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 18, 2020, 01:27:15 PM
Just goes to show how strongly "Iowa" and "rural" are associated in people's minds.  I've seen our own state's capital described as a "small town" before.  It's the center of a metro area with nearly three-quarters of a million people!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on November 18, 2020, 01:39:41 PM
Even my town is really "semi-rural" rather truly rural because of the concentrated population right in the "county seat" area. But once you get about 5 miles out of town on either side, you're basically in the cornfields, though in some directions its only another 50 miles before you hit even bigger towns and cities. Also, a large percentage of the students are from the various cities that are 1-3 hrs drive from here.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 18, 2020, 02:01:50 PM
Quote from: hazelshade on November 18, 2020, 07:03:53 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 17, 2020, 09:01:58 AM
Iowa's small private rural Clarke has seen enrollment decline from 949 to 659 in six years. Those numbers really ring the dire-straits bell.

They just announced  (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/11/17/private-iowa-college-partners-all-states-community-colleges-transfer)a vastly expanded transfer program from CCs. As ambitious as the program sounds, the hope is that it will increase the number of junior transfers from 100 to 160 per year.

That is a small increase, but my guesstimate on the demographics is that the majority of alumni will be transfers.

Man, today is the day I feel I've finally earned my small-town cred, because I read this first sentence and was like, "Rural?? It's in Dubuque, for chrissakes!"

Fair enough. I was piling on.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 18, 2020, 03:32:46 PM
Quote from: Hibush on November 18, 2020, 02:01:50 PM
Quote from: hazelshade on November 18, 2020, 07:03:53 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 17, 2020, 09:01:58 AM
Iowa's small private rural Clarke has seen enrollment decline from 949 to 659 in six years. Those numbers really ring the dire-straits bell.

They just announced  (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/11/17/private-iowa-college-partners-all-states-community-colleges-transfer)a vastly expanded transfer program from CCs. As ambitious as the program sounds, the hope is that it will increase the number of junior transfers from 100 to 160 per year.

That is a small increase, but my guesstimate on the demographics is that the majority of alumni will be transfers.

Man, today is the day I feel I've finally earned my small-town cred, because I read this first sentence and was like, "Rural?? It's in Dubuque, for chrissakes!"

Fair enough. I was piling on.

It is big for where I grew up. But, the population is under 60,000. That's not big even by my standards.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on November 18, 2020, 04:37:36 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 18, 2020, 03:32:46 PM
Quote from: Hibush on November 18, 2020, 02:01:50 PM
Quote from: hazelshade on November 18, 2020, 07:03:53 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 17, 2020, 09:01:58 AM
Iowa's small private rural Clarke has seen enrollment decline from 949 to 659 in six years. Those numbers really ring the dire-straits bell.

They just announced  (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/11/17/private-iowa-college-partners-all-states-community-colleges-transfer)a vastly expanded transfer program from CCs. As ambitious as the program sounds, the hope is that it will increase the number of junior transfers from 100 to 160 per year.

That is a small increase, but my guesstimate on the demographics is that the majority of alumni will be transfers.

Man, today is the day I feel I've finally earned my small-town cred, because I read this first sentence and was like, "Rural?? It's in Dubuque, for chrissakes!"

Fair enough. I was piling on.

It is big for where I grew up. But, the population is under 60,000. That's not big even by my standards.

60,000? That's only rural if it includes cows, squirrels, and rabbits. Of course, I grew up in a one stoplight town with cows and cornfields inside the town limits. We might have gotten to 60,000 by counting insects, arachnids, avians, and mammals. Maybe.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 18, 2020, 05:20:28 PM
Quote from: Vkw10 on November 18, 2020, 04:37:36 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 18, 2020, 03:32:46 PM
Quote from: Hibush on November 18, 2020, 02:01:50 PM
Quote from: hazelshade on November 18, 2020, 07:03:53 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 17, 2020, 09:01:58 AM
Iowa's small private rural Clarke has seen enrollment decline from 949 to 659 in six years. Those numbers really ring the dire-straits bell.

They just announced  (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/11/17/private-iowa-college-partners-all-states-community-colleges-transfer)a vastly expanded transfer program from CCs. As ambitious as the program sounds, the hope is that it will increase the number of junior transfers from 100 to 160 per year.

That is a small increase, but my guesstimate on the demographics is that the majority of alumni will be transfers.

Man, today is the day I feel I've finally earned my small-town cred, because I read this first sentence and was like, "Rural?? It's in Dubuque, for chrissakes!"

Fair enough. I was piling on.

It is big for where I grew up. But, the population is under 60,000. That's not big even by my standards.

60,000? That's only rural if it includes cows, squirrels, and rabbits. Of course, I grew up in a one stoplight town with cows and cornfields inside the town limits. We might have gotten to 60,000 by counting insects, arachnids, avians, and mammals. Maybe.

Oh, I'm not arguing that it is rural. It is a river town. I'm just saying it's not large. Where I live now it is still largely an agricultural county by area, but has over 300,000 people. Both Iowa and my state (further east) are considered rural states by many people, and are certainly agricultural. Dubuque just isn't big.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 19, 2020, 07:50:55 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on November 18, 2020, 01:39:41 PM
Even my town is really "semi-rural" rather truly rural because of the concentrated population right in the "county seat" area. But once you get about 5 miles out of town on either side, you're basically in the cornfields, though in some directions its only another 50 miles before you hit even bigger towns and cities. Also, a large percentage of the students are from the various cities that are 1-3 hrs drive from here.

Our region's nearest four-year college is in a town of under 10,000 that is over 40 miles from anything bigger.  Alma Mater is in a town only slightly bigger that's over 20 miles from anything larger.  That's what I think of when I think "rural college."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 19, 2020, 09:31:25 AM
Quote from: apl68 on November 19, 2020, 07:50:55 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on November 18, 2020, 01:39:41 PM
Even my town is really "semi-rural" rather truly rural because of the concentrated population right in the "county seat" area. But once you get about 5 miles out of town on either side, you're basically in the cornfields, though in some directions its only another 50 miles before you hit even bigger towns and cities. Also, a large percentage of the students are from the various cities that are 1-3 hrs drive from here.

Our region's nearest four-year college is in a town of under 10,000 that is over 40 miles from anything bigger.  Alma Mater is in a town only slightly bigger that's over 20 miles from anything larger.  That's what I think of when I think "rural college."

My measure is a bit different. To pick on Pennsylvania again, where the rural colleges are struggling due to depoplulation, I would include any college not in the Philadelphia or Pittsburgh metro areas. There is one very large (bigger than Dubuque ;-) rural college that is doing ok outside of those cities, but it is definitely a rural college.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 19, 2020, 10:53:16 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 19, 2020, 09:31:25 AM
Quote from: apl68 on November 19, 2020, 07:50:55 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on November 18, 2020, 01:39:41 PM
Even my town is really "semi-rural" rather truly rural because of the concentrated population right in the "county seat" area. But once you get about 5 miles out of town on either side, you're basically in the cornfields, though in some directions its only another 50 miles before you hit even bigger towns and cities. Also, a large percentage of the students are from the various cities that are 1-3 hrs drive from here.

Our region's nearest four-year college is in a town of under 10,000 that is over 40 miles from anything bigger.  Alma Mater is in a town only slightly bigger that's over 20 miles from anything larger.  That's what I think of when I think "rural college."

My measure is a bit different. To pick on Pennsylvania again, where the rural colleges are struggling due to depoplulation, I would include any college not in the Philadelphia or Pittsburgh metro areas. There is one very large (bigger than Dubuque ;-) rural college that is doing ok outside of those cities, but it is definitely a rural college.

I see what you're getting at.  "College in a rural region," even if it's not exactly a small town.  That's fair enough.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on November 20, 2020, 07:22:50 AM
Is that the area referred to as Pennsatucky?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 20, 2020, 07:43:16 AM
Quote from: FishProf on November 20, 2020, 07:22:50 AM
Is that the area referred to as Pennsatucky?

A character in Orange is the New Black!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on November 20, 2020, 08:19:38 AM
Wasn't in the book.  Missed that one.

Apparently, its PennSYLtucky.  According Wikipedia anyway.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 20, 2020, 08:51:36 AM
Quote from: FishProf on November 20, 2020, 08:19:38 AM
Wasn't in the book.  Missed that one.

Apparently, its PennSYLtucky.  According Wikipedia anyway.

The other spelling is phonetic, so no problem.

The boundaries of Pennsyltucky seem to be ill defined. "Not here, but a little southwest of here" may be the location for people in much of PA and a fair part of NY.

Perhaps forumites closer to the border can weigh in?

Regardless of which boundary one uses, Pennsyltucky is rich in colleges in dire financial straits.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 20, 2020, 10:25:15 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 20, 2020, 08:51:36 AM
Quote from: FishProf on November 20, 2020, 08:19:38 AM
Wasn't in the book.  Missed that one.

Apparently, its PennSYLtucky.  According Wikipedia anyway.

The other spelling is phonetic, so no problem.

The boundaries of Pennsyltucky seem to be ill defined. "Not here, but a little southwest of here" may be the location for people in much of PA and a fair part of NY.

Perhaps forumites closer to the border can weigh in?

Sorry, I just used to live on the south side of Kentucky.  "Tenntucky" anyone?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 23, 2020, 02:12:09 AM
Details on cuts at Guilford College:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/11/23/rare-no-confidence-vote-highlights-division-over-cuts-guilford-college (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/11/23/rare-no-confidence-vote-highlights-division-over-cuts-guilford-college).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 23, 2020, 05:15:22 AM
Quote from: spork on November 23, 2020, 02:12:09 AM
Details on cuts at Guilford College:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/11/23/rare-no-confidence-vote-highlights-division-over-cuts-guilford-college (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/11/23/rare-no-confidence-vote-highlights-division-over-cuts-guilford-college).

Per College Scorecard (https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/school/?198613-Guilford-College),

* 50% completion rate at 8 years

* 10 largest graduating majors do include English, biology, and history as liberal arts

* 64% acceptance rate (more selective than expected for a 50% completion rate)

* $24k net average cost per year with typical debt at $25k and typical income $17.5k to $49.4k.  That seems pricey for a low completion school that leads to lower earning graduates.


Guilford is possibly the first college in a long time on this thread that is Carnegie listed as liberal arts focused where people could be angry about a mission shift imposed and have some evidence to back it up.

Quote
"I came here because I wanted a liberal arts education," Foulke said. "Now our school can barely be called a liberal arts college."

Foulke's major, community and justice studies, is marked for elimination. The college will offer substitute courses for students to complete remaining major requirements, and students will be able to take classes through the Greater Greensboro consortium of local colleges and universities, which includes Bennett College, Elon University, Greensboro College, Guilford Technical Community College, High Point University, North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University, and the University of North Carolina at Greensboro.
Source: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/11/23/rare-no-confidence-vote-highlights-division-over-cuts-guilford-college

If all those other places are truly reasonable drives to expect students to take the remaining courses, then it's unclear why anyone should choose Guilford over cheaper publics or better privates.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 23, 2020, 05:52:51 AM
I used to live in that area. All of those schools listed as alternatives to Guilford are within a 30-minute radius.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 23, 2020, 06:34:57 AM
Quote from: spork on November 23, 2020, 05:52:51 AM
I used to live in that area. All of those schools listed as alternatives to Guilford are within a 30-minute radius.

Ah.  I see Guilford's problem, then.  Voting no confidence in an interim president isn't going to fix the underlying issues of too many seats chasing too few students in the region.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 23, 2020, 06:56:53 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 23, 2020, 06:34:57 AM
Quote from: spork on November 23, 2020, 05:52:51 AM
I used to live in that area. All of those schools listed as alternatives to Guilford are within a 30-minute radius.

Ah.  I see Guilford's problem, then.  Voting no confidence in an interim president isn't going to fix the underlying issues of too many seats chasing too few students in the region.

Guilford's leaders were also asleep at the switch for the last thirty to forty years. Guilford never developed a strong brand like Grinnell or Davidson, nor did it expand enrollment to go big like its nearby competitor Elon. It remained a very small college with very limited resources as demand shifted. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 23, 2020, 08:59:28 AM
Guilford is very similar in size to Alma Mater, or was until they started losing enrollment, and according to College Scorecard has an identical acceptance rate.  However, Alma Mater's graduation and retention rates are way better.  Alma Mater also costs about $5,000 a year less to attend.  And has only one competitor--a state school--within half an hour's drive.  And still has a distinct "brand" identity.

It looks like part of Guilford's problem is not only that they've been getting fewer students, they've been having trouble holding onto them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Volhiker78 on November 23, 2020, 02:15:08 PM
Quote from: spork on November 23, 2020, 06:56:53 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 23, 2020, 06:34:57 AM
Quote from: spork on November 23, 2020, 05:52:51 AM
I used to live in that area. All of those schools listed as alternatives to Guilford are within a 30-minute radius.

Ah.  I see Guilford's problem, then.  Voting no confidence in an interim president isn't going to fix the underlying issues of too many seats chasing too few students in the region.


Guilford's leaders were also asleep at the switch for the last thirty to forty years. Guilford never developed a strong brand like Grinnell or Davidson, nor did it expand enrollment to go big like its nearby competitor Elon. It remained a very small college with very limited resources as demand shifted.

Agree. Fifty years ago, Elon and Guilford were probably very similar.  Now Elon recruits up and down the East Coast, is much larger, and considered selective.  At least at my daughter's private school, Elon is considered very attractive and visits every year. No one even knows about Guilford.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on November 23, 2020, 03:46:03 PM
Ah yes, Pennsyltucky.  Cattaraugus Co., NY, where I lived for years in grad school, is on its border, and pretty much qualifies as an adjunct to it.   Appalachia really knows no state lines.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: wellfleet on November 24, 2020, 11:39:14 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 23, 2020, 03:46:03 PM
Appalachia really knows no state lines.

Some of us are even here. (Y'all could be more polite about this, just sayin'.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on November 24, 2020, 02:42:09 PM
Quote from: wellfleet on November 24, 2020, 11:39:14 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 23, 2020, 03:46:03 PM
Appalachia really knows no state lines.

Some of us are even here. (Y'all could be more polite about this, just sayin'.)

Agreed.

There are some truly beautiful areas that have literally broken my heart as I drove towards the Ohio River to get to Columbus.

I have friends that work and teach in schools in the area and they wouldn't move for anything.

When I was a kid out of high school, I was a counselor in a camp further north, and after the season was over we did an extra auto camping trip to the area.

I really didn't want to leave to go home.

M.   
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on November 24, 2020, 09:55:17 PM
I love the mountains.    I am much less impressed with the anti-intellectualism and love of ignorance that many Appalachians demonstrate.   Trump voters predominate there, for instance, and regularly vote exactly against their own interests, for a variety of reasons including those I cite above.   I confess my patience waneth.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 25, 2020, 05:30:12 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 24, 2020, 09:55:17 PM
I love the mountains.    I am much less impressed with the anti-intellectualism and love of ignorance that many Appalachians demonstrate.   Trump voters predominate there, for instance, and regularly vote exactly against their own interests, for a variety of reasons including those I cite above.   I confess my patience waneth.

You haven't visited the right cities if you think only the rural areas have ignorance in large doses or vote against their own interests.

It's also hugely amusing when the book smart people criticize others for voting wrong and otherwise acting against their own interests when their own lives aren't the shining examples of why one should put a lot of effort into getting book smart.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on November 25, 2020, 05:32:47 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 25, 2020, 05:30:12 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 24, 2020, 09:55:17 PM
I love the mountains.    I am much less impressed with the anti-intellectualism and love of ignorance that many Appalachians demonstrate.   Trump voters predominate there, for instance, and regularly vote exactly against their own interests, for a variety of reasons including those I cite above.   I confess my patience waneth.

You haven't visited the right cities if you think only the rural areas have ignorance in large doses or vote against their own interests.

Portland, San Fransisco, for instance?

Quote
It's also hugely amusing when the book smart people criticize others for voting wrong and otherwise acting against their own interests when their own lives aren't the shining examples of why one should put a lot of effort into getting book smart.

Yeah, I'm really not into nightly riots or people defecating on the streets.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on November 25, 2020, 07:55:13 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 25, 2020, 05:32:47 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 25, 2020, 05:30:12 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 24, 2020, 09:55:17 PM
I love the mountains.    I am much less impressed with the anti-intellectualism and love of ignorance that many Appalachians demonstrate.   Trump voters predominate there, for instance, and regularly vote exactly against their own interests, for a variety of reasons including those I cite above.   I confess my patience waneth.

You haven't visited the right cities if you think only the rural areas have ignorance in large doses or vote against their own interests.

Portland, San Fransisco, for instance?

Quote
It's also hugely amusing when the book smart people criticize others for voting wrong and otherwise acting against their own interests when their own lives aren't the shining examples of why one should put a lot of effort into getting book smart.

Yeah, I'm really not into nightly riots or people defecating on the streets.

You watch a little too much Fox News.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on November 25, 2020, 08:18:52 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 25, 2020, 07:55:13 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 25, 2020, 05:32:47 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 25, 2020, 05:30:12 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 24, 2020, 09:55:17 PM
I love the mountains.    I am much less impressed with the anti-intellectualism and love of ignorance that many Appalachians demonstrate.   Trump voters predominate there, for instance, and regularly vote exactly against their own interests, for a variety of reasons including those I cite above.   I confess my patience waneth.

You haven't visited the right cities if you think only the rural areas have ignorance in large doses or vote against their own interests.

Portland, San Fransisco, for instance?

Quote
It's also hugely amusing when the book smart people criticize others for voting wrong and otherwise acting against their own interests when their own lives aren't the shining examples of why one should put a lot of effort into getting book smart.

Yeah, I'm really not into nightly riots or people defecating on the streets.

You watch a little too much Fox News.

I don't actually watch any.

How about Minneapolis?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/26/us/politics/minneapolis-defund-police.html
Quote
Hanging over the debate was a surge in gun violence in Minneapolis this summer, with some community groups in Black neighborhoods worried that urgent needs for change had been crowded out by the big-picture focus on police funding and oversight.

Or is the New York Times too right-wing to be trusted?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 25, 2020, 09:27:28 AM
Folks, let's please stop slagging on people's home cities/regions and stereotyping them!  We have enough problems in the world without unconstructive practices like that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on November 25, 2020, 11:03:46 AM
One need not be a coastal elitist to point out that people in places like Kentucky have not exactly demonstrated a great deal of discernment with regard to political choices that would actually benefit them, see to the actual improvement of their lives, nor do these folks demonstrate a regard for thinking, reading, intellectual improvement, etc., which is probably why they vote the way that they do.  One need not become rich to greatly benefit from such education.... heck, even a failed administrator from a bankrupt college ought to be able to realize that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on November 25, 2020, 11:09:39 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 25, 2020, 07:55:13 AM
You watch a little too much Fox News.

Any FoxNews is too much.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on November 25, 2020, 12:36:05 PM
Regarding people who vote against their own interests . . . .

It's not up to anyone to decide what is in anyone's best interests. This is where Democrats fail.

Most of the people in rural Appalachia who voted for Trump know deep in their heart that no one, no president, no party, no policy, can ever elevate their financial situation and quality of life. They have no hope and have not had hope for a very long time. They've been repeatedly kicked in the groin for too long.

The most they can hope for is for someone that can bring down (in their minds) everyone else, down to their level of wretchedness. This is where Trump comes in. All he has to do is speak and "Own the libs." That's all that most of the folk from Appalachia want in a politician--they want someone to go into the fun summer party where only the cool people were invited, and take a big poop in the swimming pool.

It's pathetic, but voting for Trump, even against one's own financial and quality-of-life interests, confers a sense of agency that otherwise cannot be had--even if it means strip-mining their neighborhoods, and/or poisoning their air & water, and/or dismantling their health care. At the very least, they think that they are poisoning the well for everyone, so that both the Appalachians and the urbanites have to drink the same poisoned water, breath the same poisoned air, go to the same emergency room for routine health care, and most importantly, feel the same sense of loss, indignity, & helplessness.

Going back to my earlier point, most urban Democrats are clueless because they have not figured this out, yet: Appalachia's self interests are very different from what Democrats think are/could be/should be Appalachia's interests. All the good people of Appalachia want, is for someone (like Trump in 2024) to take a poop in the cool kids' swimming pool.

[Added a few minutes later] And to think that somehow the same voting group under discussion is concerned with their education and educational opportunities and how it can elevate/empower them? C'mon . . . . get real.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on November 25, 2020, 12:39:36 PM
Quote from: lightning on November 25, 2020, 12:36:05 PM

Going back to my earlier point, most urban Democrats are clueless because they have not figured this out, yet: Appalachia's self interests are very different from what Democrats think are/could be/should be Appalachia's interests. All the good people of Appalachia want, is for someone (like Trump in 2024) to take a poop in the cool kids' swimming pool.

Is that similar to how white Democrats vote for things like "defunding the police" which results in higher crime in poorer, mostly non-white neighborhoods?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on November 25, 2020, 01:14:25 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 25, 2020, 12:39:36 PM
Quote from: lightning on November 25, 2020, 12:36:05 PM

Going back to my earlier point, most urban Democrats are clueless because they have not figured this out, yet: Appalachia's self interests are very different from what Democrats think are/could be/should be Appalachia's interests. All the good people of Appalachia want, is for someone (like Trump in 2024) to take a poop in the cool kids' swimming pool.

Is that similar to how white Democrats vote for things like "defunding the police" which results in higher crime in poorer, mostly non-white neighborhoods?

Nope. Not even close. The reason being most people that spout "defund the police" don't see the utterance of the phrase as a form of agency, in function or in symbol. As for your red herring whataboutism, leaping from "defunding the police" to "higher crime in poorer, mostly non-white neighborhoods" that's a whole separate discussion.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on November 25, 2020, 01:58:56 PM
Not sure that this is going to make any impact, but I'd like to try.

This thread, and its ancestor on the CHE boards, has always been a valuable ticker for tracking institutions in distress. I've learned a lot from both iterations, and want to thank Spork for sharing expertise, insight, and a toolbox for doing the work on our own.

The frequent hijacking of the thread by the same folks who hijack almost every thread into the same, dreary, predictable dead ends is frustrating.

I'm not a censor. I'm not a mod. I'm not crying goodbye, cruel fora. But I'd ask everybody to think about where they comment, if not what.

Happy Thanks, to those who Thanks.

DC
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on November 25, 2020, 02:02:59 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on November 25, 2020, 01:58:56 PM
Not sure that this is going to make any impact, but I'd like to try.

This thread, and its ancestor on the CHE boards, has always been a valuable ticker for tracking institutions in distress. I've learned a lot from both iterations, and want to thank Spork for sharing expertise, insight, and a toolbox for doing the work on our own.

The frequent hijacking of the thread by the same folks who hijack almost every thread into the same, dreary, predictable dead ends is frustrating.

I'm not a censor. I'm not a mod. I'm not crying goodbye, cruel fora. But I'd ask everybody to think about where they comment, if not what.

Happy Thanks, to those who Thanks.

DC

+1

I've mentioned this a couple of times before.

Seemingly--hijackers gotta hijack.

I wish they wouldn't, also. The basic info and some interpretive responses are useful, the spiral galactic reasoning pudding, not so much.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 25, 2020, 03:04:27 PM
Quote from: mamselle on November 25, 2020, 02:02:59 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on November 25, 2020, 01:58:56 PM
Not sure that this is going to make any impact, but I'd like to try.

This thread, and its ancestor on the CHE boards, has always been a valuable ticker for tracking institutions in distress. I've learned a lot from both iterations, and want to thank Spork for sharing expertise, insight, and a toolbox for doing the work on our own.

The frequent hijacking of the thread by the same folks who hijack almost every thread into the same, dreary, predictable dead ends is frustrating.

I'm not a censor. I'm not a mod. I'm not crying goodbye, cruel fora. But I'd ask everybody to think about where they comment, if not what.

Happy Thanks, to those who Thanks.

DC

+1

I've mentioned this a couple of times before.

Seemingly--hijackers gotta hijack.

I wish they wouldn't, also. The basic info and some interpretive responses are useful, the spiral galactic reasoning pudding, not so much.

M.

I'm afraid I set it off by calling Dubuque "rural". Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on November 25, 2020, 09:14:12 PM
So the hicks want to get back at us by voting for someone who will poop in the cool kids' pool.   And they are feeling hopeless, feeling that nothing could be done to better their circumstances, so what the hey, just muck up things for everyone else as well.   These morons have forgotten what people like FDR, with their political philosophy, did do for the Appalachians of the country.   Why this is, and why they have bought into the lies of Trumpery, is very complicated, doubtless....

But it is certainly true that people like this do rightly see themselves as being looked down upon by people like me.   I will not deny that I fight this daily, esp given the job situation I find myself in.   Many of these people behave in ways vastly different from standard middle class morality, and they evince moronity daily, such as by wearing a 'Trump' facemask whilst flipping out the food stamp card to pay for their Doritos.  I am well aware that attitudes such as mine are not at all helpful in getting these people to give a hearing to me or those thinking like me, and I try to fight it.   And I am also well aware that many of the policies the secular left wing of the Democratic party advocates are deeply insulting to the morality and culture of many 'heartland' America types, and it is dumb to expect them to vote for you, when what you are publicly espousing violates all these principles, and when you do not sell yourselves adequately for how voting for you would do good things for their life.  I confess, however, that I am running out of all patience, and it is becoming very hard for me to respect anyone who voted for Trump this year, having seen what the disaster Trump has been (though, again, there's that propaganda, ignorance, and closed-loop fact-free parallel universe again).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 29, 2020, 06:14:38 AM
One contributing factor to many colleges being in dire financial straits is attitudes like:

Quote from: kaysixteen on November 25, 2020, 09:14:12 PM
But it is certainly true that people like this do rightly see themselves as being looked down upon by people like me.   I will not deny that I fight this daily, esp given the job situation I find myself in.   Many of these people behave in ways vastly different from standard middle class morality,

, which neglect why many people go to college or want their children to go to college.  I can't find the reference right now, but I read a great book a couple years ago explaining the sociology/anthropology research that many of us who start life in upper-lower-class beginnings don't want to have the lives that we associate with being upper-middle class and higher.

Instead, we want basically the lives that our parents/grandparents have with enough extra most months to have a savings account for emergencies, benefits on the job so we have health insurance, and physically easy enough jobs that we can work until 65-70 instead of having to figure out what to do when our bodies start to give out in our late 40s-early 50s.  We want one good enough job instead of several part-time jobs that mean we work much more, but end up with much less.

Thus, the second worst advertisement for a college education at a struggling only-regionally-known institution is to focus on the things that only teachers and college professors know with no one else in the community knowing or valuing.  We understand that we don't know what the doctor does, but we value that expertise.  We don't know what the regional sales manager does all day, but it's pretty unlikely that they are doing a lot of English literature-related tasks or drawing on their Nth-earlier-than-20th-century history regularly.

The worst advertisement for a college education anywhere are all the people who went to college to get snooty and end up with lives that are essentially materially the same or noticeably worse than what they could have had by choosing well straight out of high school and working hard into early middle age.

That adjunct who teaches a 7/7/3 for $25k per year without benefits and insists that their humanities-based general education is the most important part of a college education?  That person directly undermines the message every single day by being an example of the fears of investing in a book-based education that won't pay off.  The regional sales manager who teaches one course every term makes a much more compelling case for why a little book learning enhances one's life in non-material ways.

That person who has the same retail job that one can get right out of high school as a middle-aged adult for years instead of being store manager or anywhere on the career path that leads to district/regional offices and then deigns to be snooty about "people who didn't even try to improve themselves"?  Yeah, that's being the poster person for why book learning is far less useful than other types of learning.  Every snooty comment just reinforces the fact that book learning just makes one insufferable and not a regular person who fits in, especially when having nothing to be snooty about.

That person who claims to have the abilities to do something great and yet is observably piecing together multiple part-time jobs that pay very little, but take a lot of time, with a net result of working all the time, but being food insecure, living in a tiny apartment far from family, and having nothing saved for a rainy day, let alone retirement?  Again, that's being the poster child for why book learning is not automatically a path to success.  The creative person who has a very modest office job with benefits who then has plenty of free time for art/music/writing/acting may not be the life we'd want for ourselves, but is understandable in being a good enough life.

Having the college requirements that the faculty want to keep their jobs or that they know are important doesn't work at all when the prospective students can see that those requirements are at best irrelevant and at worst are mostly a jobs program for the faculty.  Prospective students from modest beginnings are much more willing to believe that the majors that lead directly to a good enough career path probably know what they are doing.  After all, one seldom encounters a degree holder in those fields who is living a struggling poor life, even if they are doing something different from their degree.  One doesn't have to look very far to find someone in the humanities or certain social sciences who has all the attitudes of acting better than we are while very clearly being a sucker who is trying to con the rest of us into also being suckers.

If anyone is trying to drag us down to their level, it's the academic people selling snake oil in the form of a college education that is checkbox going through the motions to ensure they have a job, not the people who see through that con and choose either working hard in the world to get ahead or a college major that is very likely to pay off for the time and effort invested.  "the job situation I find myself in" indicates being someone with no agency, unlike the people who started in the same job right out of high school and worked their way up to department manager, store manager, or regional/district anything.  I find it hard to respect people who insist that voting "wrong" is a mark against intelligence when the observable results of the critical thinking that results in personal action is not favorable to the actor.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on November 29, 2020, 06:42:37 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 29, 2020, 06:14:38 AM
One contributing factor to many colleges being in dire financial straits is attitudes like:

Quote from: kaysixteen on November 25, 2020, 09:14:12 PM
But it is certainly true that people like this do rightly see themselves as being looked down upon by people like me.   I will not deny that I fight this daily, esp given the job situation I find myself in.   Many of these people behave in ways vastly different from standard middle class morality,

, which neglect why many people go to college or want their children to go to college.  I can't find the reference right now, but I read a great book a couple years ago explaining the sociology/anthropology research that many of us who start life in upper-lower-class beginnings don't want to have the lives that we associate with being upper-middle class and higher.


Very much. And even when we "fit in" with upper middle class circles, it's performative. I know which fork to use, but if I were cooking for myself I'd be happy to make one dish meals and eat both courses WITH THE SAME FORK! (Shocking!)

And those "blue collar" Trump voters? Those would be our parents, grandparents, and other people who are compassionate and hard working, but don't appreciate the snooty attitudes of people who've never had to get their hands dirty but couldn't live without other people doing so.

Quote
Instead, we want basically the lives that our parents/grandparents have with enough extra most months to have a savings account for emergencies, benefits on the job so we have health insurance, and physically easy enough jobs that we can work until 65-70 instead of having to figure out what to do when our bodies start to give out in our late 40s-early 50s.  We want one good enough job instead of several part-time jobs that mean we work much more, but end up with much less.

I virtually never refer to what I do for a living as my "career"; I almost always refer to it as my job. (And in casual coversation, I usually simply say I "work at the university". I could be a custodian or the president; it's often not remotely relevant to the person I'm talking with.) I enjoy it; it suits me, and pays well enough for a decent life, but I intend to retire as soon as it's financially reasonable to do so, because there are other things I want to do that have nothing to do with academia.

Quote
That adjunct who teaches a 7/7/3 for $25k per year without benefits and insists that their humanities-based general education is the most important part of a college education?  That person directly undermines the message every single day by being an example of the fears of investing in a book-based education that won't pay off.  The regional sales manager who teaches one course every term makes a much more compelling case for why a little book learning enhances one's life in non-material ways.

It's glaringly obvious to "normal" people that this supposedly "smart" person who got all this education can't seem to figure out how to get higher paying employment, even though they clearly wish they had it.

Quote
That person who claims to have the abilities to do something great and yet is observably piecing together multiple part-time jobs that pay very little, but take a lot of time, with a net result of working all the time, but being food insecure, living in a tiny apartment far from family, and having nothing saved for a rainy day, let alone retirement?  Again, that's being the poster child for why book learning is not automatically a path to success.  The creative person who has a very modest office job with benefits who then has plenty of free time for art/music/writing/acting may not be the life we'd want for ourselves, but is understandable in being a good enough life.

A lot of this is tied up in the "career" versus "job" distinction I mentioned earlier, and to lots of "normal" people the distinction is not very important.  Doing honest work that pays the bills makes a person worthy of respect; not having some kind of title or letters after your name.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on November 29, 2020, 03:35:57 PM
You miss my point, but that is pretty normative for you.   I said that I am trying hard to overcome my views towards these people, whom I encounter every day, not only at work but even in my very working class neighborhood.   But it is damn hard.   One need not be a college grad, a humanities egghead, etc., or even at all well-off financially, to recognize that sh*tty personal behavior and sub-middle class morality personal choices, everything from the moderately benign decision to tattoo one's fingers, to the much more problematic decision to scream the f word at your kid in a store, to the loathsome decisions to smoke weed (however legal it may be in places), make babies with numerous different people you never intend to marry, are bad things and contribute not only to your failure at life, but also make it harder to sympathize with them, want to help them out with welfare, etc. (those of you who have never, or even just not recently, worked retail, think hard on what it feels like to be sworn at, treated with contempt, etc., by a customer who then whips out a food stamp card to pay for their chips).   And these sorts of contempt-inducing behavior do not even take into consideration the bad choices to vote for people who are snookering them, and, once in office, enforce political policies that are exactly the opposite of what would be in the financial, moral, and cultural interests of the dumb-dumb voters in question.... especially when said dumb-dumbs in question double down on those poor voting choices, in order to  'own the libtards' or some such crapola.   Really, this is hard.   And what makes it harder, all things being equal, is the mind-numbingly stupid attitude that actually rejects booklarnin', the development of critical thinking, etc., that one gets in college, *especially in humanities classes* (studies now show that a majority of GOP voters actually think college and colleges are bad for America, presumably meaning they do not want their kids to go there, when historically working class folks saved, worked hard, and actively encouraged their kids to go there), thereby baptizing ignorance and wooly, uncritical thinking.   Sue me if you wish, but I will continue to view such attitudes and actions as just plain bad, and bad for America.

Now as to someone like me, caught in the unfortunate position of having a PhD earned in one of the most collapsing academic fields, who began his PhD studies at a time when all the public advice and proclamations told him (and thousands of others) that jobs would be there aplenty for them on graduation, well I am stuck.   I try to deal with this, not to think about it overoften, etc., but I quite frankly tire of the repeated claims made by polly, and some others following her, that somehow non-academic wonderful careers are available for me, and presumably would have been all along had I merely sought them, and thus somehow I am a loser not worthy of having those working class folks pay any attention to me.   One can claim things like this all the time, as often as one wants, but it does not make it true-- so I will repeat in clear enough terms for a PhD engineer to get, there really are not legions of nonacademic employers eager to hire 50+ classics PhDs (even ones who also hold an MLS) for serious, well-paying, meaningful, and personally fulfilling professional and/or business employment.   Really, there just ain't.   If I had been paid my current Wallyworld hourly wage for every hour I have spent searching for employment over the last 15 years, I could probably buy a new Mercedes.

Now one more thing-- what does this mean: " I find it hard to respect people who insist that voting "wrong" is a mark against intelligence when the observable results of the critical thinking that results in personal action is not favorable to the actor."?   I can make a couple of guesses, but perhaps you'd care to simplify it for me....
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on November 29, 2020, 03:59:00 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 29, 2020, 03:35:57 PM
You miss my point, but that is pretty normative for you.   I said that I am trying hard to overcome my views towards these people, whom I encounter every day, not only at work but even in my very working class neighborhood.   But it is damn hard.   One need not be a college grad, a humanities egghead, etc., or even at all well-off financially, to recognize that sh*tty personal behavior and sub-middle class morality personal choices, everything from the moderately benign decision to tattoo one's fingers, to the much more problematic decision to scream the f word at your kid in a store, to the loathsome decisions to smoke weed (however legal it may be in places), make babies with numerous different people you never intend to marry, are bad things and contribute not only to your failure at life, but also make it harder to sympathize with them, want to help them out with welfare, etc. (those of you who have never, or even just not recently, worked retail, think hard on what it feels like to be sworn at, treated with contempt, etc., by a customer who then whips out a food stamp card to pay for their chips). 
Tatoos? Weed-smoking? Having sex without any long term plans? How are those unique to the right? (And instead of yelling at kids, probably applauding their bad behaviour is not a big improvemnt.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 29, 2020, 04:28:20 PM
Apologies for not quoting kaysixteen, but that's hard on this device.

1) Let's start with the most important factor: we agree that few good business jobs exist for people with kaysixteen's educational background where he wants to live.  The take-home message for most of us observing is that far fewer people should be spending their early adult life in school that won't pay off and many more people should be doing something else during those years that is much more likely to pay off.

It's exactly because it's so clear (and has been since the 1970s) that a lot of book learning takes a lot of time and energy, but doesn't result in good jobs for most people with just that book learning that college is seen as less of a good bet, even for the smart people with a solid K-12 education.

It's not that I don't understand why kaysixteen doesn't have a better job with all that schoolin'; it's that the logical conclusion by observers is that so many cautionary tales like this exist that smart people would not follow that path...unless they come from families where the result won't be Walmart, but will be a middle-class job, college-expected with benefits.

I have no additional specific-to-kaysixteen advice because my focus in people avoiding ever being in that situation.  Once someone has been in that situation for years and still hasn't managed to accept being a worker bee whose best bet is working up the ladder to shift supervisor, department supervisor, or team lead, then, yes, I know exactly why no outside business wants to hire someone who only has outdated book learning certificates and no recent experience doing anything associated with success.

2) Yes, kaysixteen, you watch trashy folk in Walmart do trashy folk stuff.  How frequently do you watch the solidly middle-class folks who have upper-middle-class aspirations yell at their kids for stepping a toe off the path to success at athletic events, art performances, academic contests, or even just grade reports?  People yell and otherwise treat their kids poorly for many reasons.  Go read about the Tiger Moms and get back to me about how that's really a successful life, even when the offspring end up with fancy titles and enough money.

I will take my "trashy" family with too many tattoos, being a grandparent at 32, and living in a trailer loud enough that everyone yells at the time just to be heard over the day-in, day-out noise over having to be on all the time to be one of the chosen.

Obviously at one point, you, too, made the choice to be genuine in a lower-class way over performative in an elite way or else your degree from Dear Alma Mater would have paid off in terms of a network where someone could have found you something cushy enough.

Truly elite people never end up working at Walmart.  period.  Those classy elite people have networks with some stern warnings on not messing up this time as second assistant clerk who just has to be moderately competent and mostly likeable to advance up the ranks.

3) Somehow, the college faculty and often administrators don't want to believe that many, many people go to college to get a good enough job that requires specialty education that can't be picked up by smart enough people just out in the world.  Focusing on an abstract "critical thinking" instead of much useful material that includes how to think about additional material encountered out in the world is itself a failure of critical thinking.

Someone who is smart enough to learn one book-learning expertise well probably can learn other book-learning expertises well enough.  However, it's very clear in many cases that people who are great at book learning aren't necessarily great at being able to learn things that aren't presented in a book-learning context.  While many successful people have solid book learning, book learning alone doesn't make one successful in any endeavor, even (or perhaps especially) academia.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 30, 2020, 04:51:05 AM
<Now that I am on a device where quoting is easy>

Particularly relevant to this thread discussing why many small, isolated colleges are in dire financial straits by refusing to address the needs of the community:
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 29, 2020, 03:35:57 PM
And what makes it harder, all things being equal, is the mind-numbingly stupid attitude that actually rejects booklarnin', the development of critical thinking, etc., that one gets in college, *especially in humanities classes* (studies now show that a majority of GOP voters actually think college and colleges are bad for America, presumably meaning they do not want their kids to go there, when historically working class folks saved, worked hard, and actively encouraged their kids to go there), thereby baptizing ignorance and wooly, uncritical thinking.   Sue me if you wish, but I will continue to view such attitudes and actions as just plain bad, and bad for America.
<...>
so I will repeat in clear enough terms for a PhD engineer to get

Note that kaysixteen is still asserting that his college education is better than my engineering education, despite all evidence to the contrary on life outcomes that matter including having been a full-time, TT faculty member.  I am not a failed academic; I used my critical thinking skills to find a professional job that is much more stable than an academic job at one of the dire financial straits institution.

Note that kaysixteen is not owning his own experience of how book learning doesn't count out in the world nearly as much as one might hope.  He has the same job as someone right out of high school (possibly not even a high school graduate) and, despite years in that job, he has not advanced by doing the things one does as a good Walmart employee to climb the ladder.  He does not identify as a Walmart employee; he identifies as an academic, a librarian, something different from decades ago as possibilities, not the reality.

He's still asserting that it's better to go to college and learn critical thinking without any evidence that he has in fact learned the critical thinking that matters outside the classroom.  Yep, drinking and screwing around on the job instead of working hard are bad life choices.  Investing a lot in book learning and then still screwing around in the low-paid retail world is also a bad life choice.

He's still asserting that somehow, despite all the evidence, he is better than I am on some nebulous life outcome that bears no resemblance to the reality in which I live, let alone all his coworkers at Walmart who are living in the same daily reality as he is.

Down at the not-at-all elite end of the food chain out in the world, we all know multiple kaysixteens.  We are unlikely to know any full-time faculty members at the regional college, but we all know someone who is holding a crummy job and yet tells us that we're losers because we have that same job without the wasted years and money in college learning all those critical thinking skills that somehow don't translate to a comfortable life in a place we'd want to live.

Consequently, we're not going to enroll in the regional institution that doesn't offer the majors we want that either lead directly to a job (e.g., teacher, social worker, criminal justice, engineer, nurse) or are somehow good enough that even when one doesn't use that major directly, one has a good middle class fall back--almost half of new graduates in engineering immediately take some other job unrelated to engineering and a fair number of teachers are no longer at a school district within five years of their first teaching job.

Very few of the 600ish colleges that were projected to go under in the foreseeable future as demographics shift offer engineering or nursing and often they don't offer social worker or criminal justice, either.  While many, many people are wrong about their abilities/interest in becoming engineers, those students pick universities that offer those programs.  Then, when those aspiring students change majors, they don't start over their college search.  They stay at the institutions where they enrolled and choose one of those majors.

The colleges that keep advertising critical thinking and an educated citizenry as goals of college education are sending the wrong message to the people whom the colleges need to convince to enroll.  Our lived experience interacting with our community kaysixteens are very, very strong and will win over any stranger asserting that we're wrong to dismiss book learning (not necessarily education, but definitely disconnected book learning that we only encounter in the classroom) as really the avenue to the middle class. 

The evidence we can examine (not locked up in academic journals, but our routine interactions with the kaysixteens of the world) means those well-meaning academics are at best confused and at worst lying to us to keep their own jobs as college faculty instead of having to work at Walmart with the rest of us.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on November 30, 2020, 05:47:33 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 30, 2020, 04:51:05 AM

He's still asserting that it's better to go to college and learn critical thinking without any evidence that he has in fact learned the critical thinking that matters outside the classroom.  Yep, drinking and screwing around on the job instead of working hard are bad life choices.  Investing a lot in book learning and then still screwing around in the low-paid retail world is also a bad life choice.


I think it would be telling to look at the educational history of all of the people advocating "socialism" so loudly. There would probably be lots of *humanities graduates, and very few engineers, or other professionals.  The people most in favour of all kinds of economic redistribution are not the unskilled recent immigrants, or even unemployed in rustbelt areas, but people who chose to get an education that did not prioritize gainful employment. (As a Canadian, I'm used to and in favour of more robust social programs than in the US, but that's not remotely close to socialism.)


*Particularly "grievance studies" programs, which reinforce the idea that ones' own choices have very little to do with one's outcomes, even when one lives in a place where the freedom, time, and resources to get such an education is virtually universal.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: arty_ on November 30, 2020, 08:29:16 AM
Back to our regular programming.
Colleagues at U Wisconsin-Whitewater are telling me they've been offered a buyout -  approximately 30% of annual salary to leave at the end of the academic year. 2 weeks to decide. The folks I know there are mostly snubbing their noses at this, but apparently some academic staff have taken it. Also, a lot of different versions of stories from department heads vs deans vs chancellors regarding cost cutting measures of axing degrees, e.g. departments. It seems that each university in the UW system is handling their budget cuts entirely separately, with no visible coordination.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 30, 2020, 08:35:00 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 30, 2020, 05:47:33 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 30, 2020, 04:51:05 AM

He's still asserting that it's better to go to college and learn critical thinking without any evidence that he has in fact learned the critical thinking that matters outside the classroom.  Yep, drinking and screwing around on the job instead of working hard are bad life choices.  Investing a lot in book learning and then still screwing around in the low-paid retail world is also a bad life choice.


I think it would be telling to look at the educational history of all of the people advocating "socialism" so loudly. There would probably be lots of *humanities graduates, and very few engineers, or other professionals.  The people most in favour of all kinds of economic redistribution are not the unskilled recent immigrants, or even unemployed in rustbelt areas, but people who chose to get an education that did not prioritize gainful employment. (As a Canadian, I'm used to and in favour of more robust social programs than in the US, but that's not remotely close to socialism.)


*Particularly "grievance studies" programs, which reinforce the idea that ones' own choices have very little to do with one's outcomes, even when one lives in a place where the freedom, time, and resources to get such an education is virtually universal.

I wouldn't know about that.  Socialism is ultimately a highly technocratic worldview.  I would think that that would appeal to many engineers and such.  Certainly Marxist and socialist governments have traditionally made much of how they were taking a "scientific" approach to running society and allocating its resources.  Here in North America you probably don't find a lot of engineers and professionals who advocate socialism.  But then you don't really--despite the accusations routinely leveled against them from some quarters--find many in the humanities here who think much of socialism either.  At least outside the "grievance studies" programs, which a great many in the humanities find every bit as annoying as you do.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 30, 2020, 08:36:03 AM
Quote from: arty_ on November 30, 2020, 08:29:16 AM
Back to our regular programming.
Colleagues at U Wisconsin-Whitewater are telling me they've been offered a buyout -  approximately 30% of annual salary to leave at the end of the academic year. 2 weeks to decide. The folks I know there are mostly snubbing their noses at this, but apparently some academic staff have taken it. Also, a lot of different versions of stories from department heads vs deans vs chancellors regarding cost cutting measures of axing degrees, e.g. departments. It seems that each university in the UW system is handling their budget cuts entirely separately, with no visible coordination.

Any ideas about how many of the faculty at Whitewater that that's affecting?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on November 30, 2020, 09:13:57 AM
Quote from: arty_ on November 30, 2020, 08:29:16 AM
Back to our regular programming.
Colleagues at U Wisconsin-Whitewater are telling me they've been offered a buyout -  approximately 30% of annual salary to leave at the end of the academic year. 2 weeks to decide. The folks I know there are mostly snubbing their noses at this, but apparently some academic staff have taken it. Also, a lot of different versions of stories from department heads vs deans vs chancellors regarding cost cutting measures of axing degrees, e.g. departments. It seems that each university in the UW system is handling their budget cuts entirely separately, with no visible coordination.

30%?!? What a rip-off. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 30, 2020, 09:33:39 AM
Quote from: arty_ on November 30, 2020, 08:29:16 AM
Back to our regular programming.
Colleagues at U Wisconsin-Whitewater are telling me they've been offered a buyout -  approximately 30% of annual salary to leave at the end of the academic year. 2 weeks to decide. The folks I know there are mostly snubbing their noses at this, but apparently some academic staff have taken it. Also, a lot of different versions of stories from department heads vs deans vs chancellors regarding cost cutting measures of axing degrees, e.g. departments. It seems that each university in the UW system is handling their budget cuts entirely separately, with no visible coordination.

Tuition fund balances (a.k.a. margin) have fallen by 60% over the last three fiscal years in the UW system:

https://www.wpr.org/uw-system-tuition-balances-down-nearly-60-percent-2013-levels (https://www.wpr.org/uw-system-tuition-balances-down-nearly-60-percent-2013-levels).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 30, 2020, 01:05:11 PM
Quote from: spork on November 30, 2020, 09:33:39 AM
Quote from: arty_ on November 30, 2020, 08:29:16 AM
Back to our regular programming.
Colleagues at U Wisconsin-Whitewater are telling me they've been offered a buyout -  approximately 30% of annual salary to leave at the end of the academic year. 2 weeks to decide. The folks I know there are mostly snubbing their noses at this, but apparently some academic staff have taken it. Also, a lot of different versions of stories from department heads vs deans vs chancellors regarding cost cutting measures of axing degrees, e.g. departments. It seems that each university in the UW system is handling their budget cuts entirely separately, with no visible coordination.

Tuition fund balances (a.k.a. margin) have fallen by 60% over the last three fiscal years in the UW system:

https://www.wpr.org/uw-system-tuition-balances-down-nearly-60-percent-2013-levels (https://www.wpr.org/uw-system-tuition-balances-down-nearly-60-percent-2013-levels).

Interesting to note how individual campuses within the system are all over the place in terms of their changes in tuition fund balances.  Some have gained significantly in percentage terms, others have lost a great deal.  I guess this will be one factor to consider when the state weighs downgrading or even shutting down some of its campuses in the face of long-term enrollment declines.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on November 30, 2020, 02:00:18 PM
Awright, since I acknowledge that I am just not motivated to figure out how to actually use the quote function, I will just make comments based on polly's and marshy's recent posts, trying to give enough context whilst doing so.... these will not be in any particular order of import:

1) I am going to give her the benefit of the doubt and allow that she might think I have been arguing that my advocacy for humanities ed as a good thing is motivated by a view that such an ed is a good route to a big-dollars job, comfy life, etc.   But I have never said this, and certainly do not say it on this thread.   I acknowledge that often such advanced training is not as potentially lucrative as most STEM ed paths, for instances, and I never intended to be making big bucks by my ed choices.   I was eager to work as a college professor (old style liberal arts, like the people at dear alma mater who taught me in the 80s), or a prep/ boarding school guy (there are positive and negative aspects to both, for people like me-- working at private Christian schools came only the 00s, and in retrospect my thinking when I took those jobs was not fully informed by reality on the ground).   It ain't at all my fault that the field I chose, which like it or not I do love, and which used to be amongs the cornerstone hallmarks of liberal arts ed at both the sec school and higher ed levels, largely toileted out in the 90s, which only made the  failure of Bowen Report-esque promises for new PhDs even more stark for me.   And I even was able 20 years ago to add one more year to my grad school experience, and get an MLS too, in order to provide alternative professional options (and did so upon specific and repeated advice from several career counselors)-- I did this after I finally had to conclude, c. 1998, that, contrary to the false promises made to people like me 5-10 years earlier, the golden professoriate was likely going to be out of reach (and when it became clear enough that PhD possession was actually not going to be a decided advantage in prep school land, esp for non-athletes like myself).   Sadly, the market for MLSs has been effectively toileting too, especially for those not having extensive paraprofessional library experience and/ or specialized advanced tech skills not normally taught in library school, at least in that era.    I have been trying for plan C for several years now, paid a ton of money for a high priced private career guy 3 years ago, and more or less got an updated 2020-ish resume and cover letter, and one semester of a specialized adjunct job I would not have thought to look for before.  Ah well.   But I still contend that the critical thinking  and analysis skills one can get in a humanities major is more or less second to none, certainly exceeding the specialized professional training engineers or nurses are given, and that it is not at all necessary for a student who has taken such a degree is very well prepped to do more or less anything else he might then seek to get specialized advanced education or training to pursue (heck, in the old days, actually not that old by now, many humanities BAs were regularly hired into entry level positions in a wide  variety of firms/ government agencies, etc., who valued this ed precisely for the critical thinking and overall general knowledge bases such ed provided, and expected to take the new grad and then teach him what their business actually did, on the job-- such hiring is now exceedingly rare, unless one is willing and financially able to undertake one of those infamous unpaid internships that now serve as yet another form of affirmative action for the affluent.   And I maintain that, yes, it is bad for the working class to eschew such education, largely because in so doing they are also eschewing those critical thinking skills, and those knowledge bases, for themselves and their children, and this is the exact opposite of a good thing, and will have a sad snowballing effect on these folks going forward, and will reinforce the bad thinking, acting, and susceptibility to snookering such attitudes engender.

2) WRT my being in the elite-- I have never claimed to be such,  certainly acknowledge that I ain't, nor do  I believe such status is automatically attained by elite humanities ed, or engineering ed, or $200/hr plumber's licensure.   Indeed, were I in the 'old boy network' elite, years ago I would have gotten a job at a place like Andover, and spend my days teaching seminars in Greek language and critical thinking skills to elite class 99th percentile teens, and then proceed to wood-paneled lounges to hear elite guest speakers talking about a wide variety of interesting things.   Ah well.   Those who are not in this 'elite' but desire to enter such have a very hard road to hoe... Horatio Alger is dead.

3)  'Socialism' is, as I (and I believe others here) have long noted, is nowadays nigh onto a meaningless buzzword, esp when used by folks who do not claim to be socialists themselves (whereas someone like Sanders or AOC more or less let it be known what they mean by calling themselves this... and what they don't).  For the bulk of Americans (and methinks also Canadians), what is much more important to ask is what specific aspects of or programs of 'socialism' they espouse (and of course benefit from), vs what they do not espouse (and do not benefit from.... unless of course, they do benefit from those programs, which they will then helpfully redefine as something other than 'socialism')--  as Lawrence O'Donnell notes, there is a lot of socialism in this country, some of which is 'good socialism', and others of which are 'bad socialism'... and much of the bad socialism is espoused (although, again, usually under other labels) by many 'conservatives' who regularly rail against 'socialism' as a general buzzword concept.

4) WRT that UW-Whitewater 30% buyout, is that 30% per annum for the rest of one's natural life, regardless of how old one is or how many years' of uni service one has, or something very much less than this?   It would make a real difference.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on November 30, 2020, 02:14:38 PM
One more thing, WRT my Walmart experience.   It is certainly true that I have worked for Wallyworld for many years now, all pt, without ever having sought management promotion.  I could have had a mgmt job years back had I sought it.   Why didn't I?   Two main reasons:

1) If I had taken it,  it would have seemed like settling.   The job ain't that great, not at all, and I would have been telling myself I was going to (effectively) abandon my ongoing search for fulfilling professional employment and accept, well.. it.   I have not been willing to do so, all the more because

2) the job really stinks, on balance.   It is hard work, and really does not pay much, because managers do not make overtime and regularly are working 50-60 hours a week (and are expected to come in on days off if told to do so, etc.).   There are also ethical issues I have, policies they are expected to enforce that are above my pay grade (and thus not my concern) as a pt hourly clock puncher. (one of the most infamous would of course be to use the famous 800 number to Arkansas HQ, whenever any whisper of unionization organization efforts may be heard, but there are others, some much more commonly occurring).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on November 30, 2020, 02:25:02 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 30, 2020, 02:00:18 PM
But I still contend that the critical thinking  and analysis skills one can get in a humanities major is more or less second to none, certainly exceeding the specialized professional training engineers or nurses are given, and that it is not at all necessary for a student who has taken such a degree is very well prepped to do more or less anything else he might then seek to get specialized advanced education or training to pursue (heck, in the old days, actually not that old by now, many humanities BAs were regularly hired into entry level positions in a wide  variety of firms/ government agencies, etc., who valued this ed precisely for the critical thinking and overall general knowledge bases such ed provided, and expected to take the new grad and then teach him what their business actually did, on the job-- such hiring is now exceedingly rare, unless one is willing and financially able to undertake one of those infamous unpaid internships that now serve as yet another form of affirmative action for the affluent.   

So this raises the question of why their skills and knowledge are insufficient now. Certainly government agencies can't be using the unpaid internships like private companies can, so why aren't these graduates as desirable now?



Quote
'Socialism' is, as I (and I believe others here) have long noted, is nowadays nigh onto a meaningless buzzword, esp when used by folks who do not claim to be socialists themselves (whereas someone like Sanders or AOC more or less let it be known what they mean by calling themselves this... and what they don't).  For the bulk of Americans (and methinks also Canadians), what is much more important to ask is what specific aspects of or programs of 'socialism' they espouse (and of course benefit from), vs what they do not espouse (and do not benefit from.... unless of course, they do benefit from those programs, which they will then helpfully redefine as something other than 'socialism')--  as Lawrence O'Donnell notes, there is a lot of socialism in this country, some of which is 'good socialism', and others of which are 'bad socialism'... and much of the bad socialism is espoused (although, again, usually under other labels) by many 'conservatives' who regularly rail against 'socialism' as a general buzzword concept.

You could say the same things about "monarchy" and call roads, hospitals, courts, etc. "good results" of monarchy. They aren't unique to monarchy, nor are they all guaranteed by monarchy. Using "socialism" to basically mean any government-funded programs and/or services, as I have said before, basically means that every government that has ever existed has been somewhat "socialist".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 30, 2020, 03:41:12 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 30, 2020, 02:14:38 PM
One more thing, WRT my Walmart experience.   It is certainly true that I have worked for Wallyworld for many years now, all pt, without ever having sought management promotion.  I could have had a mgmt job years back had I sought it.   Why didn't I?   Two main reasons:

1) If I had taken it,  it would have seemed like settling.   The job ain't that great, not at all, and I would have been telling myself I was going to (effectively) abandon my ongoing search for fulfilling professional employment and accept, well.. it.   I have not been willing to do so, all the more because

2) the job really stinks, on balance.   It is hard work, and really does not pay much, because managers do not make overtime and regularly are working 50-60 hours a week (and are expected to come in on days off if told to do so, etc.).   There are also ethical issues I have, policies they are expected to enforce that are above my pay grade (and thus not my concern) as a pt hourly clock puncher. (one of the most infamous would of course be to use the famous 800 number to Arkansas HQ, whenever any whisper of unionization organization efforts may be heard, but there are others, some much more commonly occurring).

Can't really say I blame you there.  From what I've seen and heard, Wal Mart managers lead a dog's life.  It's also not hard to see the job leading to various ethical compromises.

I am curious as to what went wrong with the MLS route.  It's definitely true that budding librarians must normally start at the bottom and pay their dues as paraprofessionals, even with an MLS in hand.  It makes for a slow-starting career.  On the other hand, getting a foot in the door and then sticking with it does tend to open doors over time.  It sure as everything beats Wal Mart.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 30, 2020, 06:53:30 PM
1) The point of taking the manager route at Walmart is not to be a manager at Walmart.  It is to acquire and demonstrate that one has the relevant skills to succeed in another business job.  Someone who has recent manager experience on how business  really works and has college/graduate degrees is a viable candidate for a position in another business.  Someone who has been a part-time minion  for decades with no relevant experience is not competitive for a middle-class job where the whole point is that all the competitive people have sold out and made their peace with doing so.

2) The MLS route is similar to being an academic; it's one of the standard fallbacks along with teaching high school.  As such, it wasn't a good plan B at any point in the past several decades for someone who isn't already in the system doing the work.  Again, they are looking for someone with experience, not just someone who took the classes.

3) Internships,co-ops, and other student programs are the way that most people get their foot into the door for entry level positions.  Anyone who waits until after college to apply will be at a significant disadvantage because the successful candidates will have directly related experience in addition to good grades and various student level awards.  Book learning is not enough at this point because so many people have it. 

4) Most middle-class college-required jobs are never advertised.  Most jobs are filled by working the network.  Thus, not having a professional network hurts people who don't have the special skills that generally are advertised.  Seldom does the network just come up with a mechanical engineer who specializes in X.  Nearly always does the network come up with someone who is literate enough, numerate enough, and amenable to additional training.  Therefore, engineering jobs are often advertised and someone unknown to the hiring manager has a good shot at being hired.  The jobs that just need a good enough college graduate are almost never advertised and seldom is a complete stranger hired.

5) All the words on critical thinking at the college level misses everything that happens in the first 15+ years of a person's life.  Students don't arrive at college as blank slates; most students will have 10 or more years of formal education.  To assert that college level critical thinking is somehow different from the previous decade of formal education only works for the unicorn who went to a terrible K-12 system and then somehow gets into an elite institution. 

The person who went to a great K-12 system and has the background to benefit from a liberal arts college education is not seeing something new, but will be polishing their already good skills.  Someone who went to a terrible K-12 system seldom gets into an elite-enough institution to really benefit, but instead gets ripped off again by having general education be a series of one-offs that probably don't have enough reading, discussion, writing, and targeted feedback for revision.  There's no critical thinking being nurtured in that case and the friends and colleagues of those students didn't miss anything by skipping the rip-off college.

6) I'm still waiting to learn why it is that someone who has the same crummy job, living in the same crummy apartment, and driving the same crummy car is somehow better by virtue of attending a college that clearly didn't help in any way.  I'm willing to believe that money isn't everything so that one chooses to be, say, a librarian, high school teacher, or community college professor in a small town with modest income, but also modest needs.  I'm much less willing to believe that being a part-timer at Walmart, same as my alcoholic cousin who didn't make it through high school, is somehow a great life plan that redeems the time and energy spent on a college degree at a fancy institution where somehow critical thinking was taught, but doesn't manifest in any discernible way.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on November 30, 2020, 07:21:13 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 30, 2020, 06:53:30 PM
2) The MLS route is similar to being an academic; it's one of the standard fallbacks along with teaching high school.  As such, it wasn't a good plan B at any point in the past several decades for someone who isn't already in the system doing the work.  Again, they are looking for someone with experience, not just someone who took the classes.

Not us. We're the place where Librarians get some experience and/or complete a second Master's, and move on up and out after a few years. People who come with experience just don't buy furniture and move out and up more quickly.

I'll concede that the rapid closure of other institutions is changing the market, but I sit on a lot of Library hiring committees, and it hasn't changed that much. Big caveat: We haven't hired anybody, for anything, since COVID, so who knows what it will look like this summer.

I know, I know. Anecdotes aren't data, and one small college isn't a great measure of the market. But there's usually some somewheres that are the bottom rung, and it's worth figuring out where they are, especially for people in jobs where mobility is expected.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: hazelshade on November 30, 2020, 07:49:13 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 30, 2020, 06:53:30 PM
4) Most middle-class college-required jobs are never advertised.  Most jobs are filled by working the network. 

I just want to point out that this comment is, at best, rather dated or, at worst, outright wrong, though it's a very persistent myth in the job search world.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 01, 2020, 07:34:08 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on November 30, 2020, 07:21:13 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 30, 2020, 06:53:30 PM
2) The MLS route is similar to being an academic; it's one of the standard fallbacks along with teaching high school.  As such, it wasn't a good plan B at any point in the past several decades for someone who isn't already in the system doing the work.  Again, they are looking for someone with experience, not just someone who took the classes.

Not us. We're the place where Librarians get some experience and/or complete a second Master's, and move on up and out after a few years. People who come with experience just don't buy furniture and move out and up more quickly.

I'll concede that the rapid closure of other institutions is changing the market, but I sit on a lot of Library hiring committees, and it hasn't changed that much. Big caveat: We haven't hired anybody, for anything, since COVID, so who knows what it will look like this summer.

I know, I know. Anecdotes aren't data, and one small college isn't a great measure of the market. But there's usually some somewheres that are the bottom rung, and it's worth figuring out where they are, especially for people in jobs where mobility is expected.

That's interesting.  All the libraries I'm familiar with, academic and public, large and small, seem to have pretty stable MLS staffing.  I'm not surprised that there are librarians using certain jobs as stepping stones--I considered doing the same thing myself at one point.  I am surprised that there are places where it is common practice.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on December 01, 2020, 01:25:50 PM
Quote from: apl68 on December 01, 2020, 07:34:08 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on November 30, 2020, 07:21:13 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 30, 2020, 06:53:30 PM
2) The MLS route is similar to being an academic; it's one of the standard fallbacks along with teaching high school.  As such, it wasn't a good plan B at any point in the past several decades for someone who isn't already in the system doing the work.  Again, they are looking for someone with experience, not just someone who took the classes.

Not us. We're the place where Librarians get some experience and/or complete a second Master's, and move on up and out after a few years. People who come with experience just don't buy furniture and move out and up more quickly.

I'll concede that the rapid closure of other institutions is changing the market, but I sit on a lot of Library hiring committees, and it hasn't changed that much. Big caveat: We haven't hired anybody, for anything, since COVID, so who knows what it will look like this summer.

I know, I know. Anecdotes aren't data, and one small college isn't a great measure of the market. But there's usually some somewheres that are the bottom rung, and it's worth figuring out where they are, especially for people in jobs where mobility is expected.

That's interesting.  All the libraries I'm familiar with, academic and public, large and small, seem to have pretty stable MLS staffing.  I'm not surprised that there are librarians using certain jobs as stepping stones--I considered doing the same thing myself at one point.  I am surprised that there are places where it is common practice.

There were reasons for some of the turnover. We're very small, so it doesn't take much to create a clash of personalities and/or toxic environment.

But the churn has persisted, despite the changes of personnel, which invites speculation. Internal hires have stayed no longer than external folks. Many, to be fair, have moved to other libraries within the larger University system, and it might be better to think about them as internal moves. But almost nobody stays for long. We reached a point not long ago when we had to waive the one-year-experience clause for service on committees, because none of the librarians would qualify.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on December 01, 2020, 11:10:34 PM
Continuing random thoughts and responses;

1) There is no question that nowadays a new MLS with no actual library work experience cannot get a librarian job-- there would be too much competition.   This, however, was not always the case.   My library school days were coequal with the calendar year 2000-- I started in Jan. and took max course loads for all three semesters, including the intense summer school semester, largely because, just having finished up my PhD, I was running low on money and on patience for long-time additional school, and wanted to get through the MLS asap in order to actually get a job.   My MLS advisor, a 60-ish guy who was chair of the dept., thought this was fine, as did all the other professors I had.   None ever advised me to slow up and try to get some sort of paraprofessional library work during library school, or even mentioned that it was a good idea to do so (some of my fellow MLS students were so working, but most of these people were certainly not going to lib school ft, and many were on track to take several years to earn a degree which really could have been earned in a year).   Further, no professor ever offered to assist me even in obtaining an internship, let alone suggested I needed to do so, and the advisor/ chair, when he interviewed me for admission, thought this plan was just fine, and when I asked what he thought my chance of getting a professional job on completion was, he replied 'virtually 100% as long as you are willing to relocate'.   Indeed, the dept also offered essentially no assistance to its completing students and recent alumni, in terms of looking for that first job, and actually piggybacked on a business school professional advisor in the uni's career counseling office, to assist library students in preparing resumes, covers, interview strategies, etc.-- she, by her own admission, knew nothing of libraries, and gave much rather useless, business-oriented advice that was inappropriate to libraries (though I did not find that out till later).  Obviously, I have mentioned before that my lis school was essentially a diploma mill that actually lost its ALA accreditation 5 years after I graduated, , but I bring up this trip down memory lane to point out that the rules really were different in the 20th century, and it just won't do to hold people retroactively accountable for not having done what no one ever told them to do, esp when the thing in question really was just not done in the era in question.

2) This of course applies to academic career paths for classics PhDs, in spades.   It was actually pretty depressing, as I ran through grad school (and, in retrospect, as an undergrad as well), to encounter numerous professors who not only did not have a career achievement that would have remotely acquired them a tt job, let alone tenure, even by the late 90s, let alone today, but even to hear some of them talk about just how different things were when they were getting out of grad school and looking for that first tt job in the first place.   One gent, a legend in his own mind, actually bragged that, while he said he did not go to anything resembling a first-rate grad school, by his last semester there he had actually received 5 tt job offers, *without having applied for any*-- this was the sort of 'networking' guys in his generation did (he finished his degree in 1959).   He and many only slightly younger colleagues were vaguely aware that the rules had changed by the mid-90s, but still offered no advice, let alone assistance, in how to 'network' (the word, if I ever heard it from anyone in this era, was something thought of as what sales/ business professionals did, not academics), nor in looking for or obtaining employment.  I followed all the rules, learned what I was taught-- but the powers that be changed all the rules.

3) You are right that I have not 'made my peace' with settling for a potential career up the retail ladder.   The job is undesirable, and I can and will still look for permanent fulfilling professional work.   To 'make my peace' with such a job would likely be a psychic crusher.   Just tonight, a guy used the f word several times, and threatened to talk to a manager (I did not want to let him hold up the checkout line, which was long, because he had to go back to his car to get his wallet-- he had to go to the back of the line).   This does not make me feel good, and methinks most regular posters in places like these fora would not, ahem, last very long working at Wallyworld in Rusty City-- management would actually be worse, due to the ethical challenges, and the soul-crushing acceptance of such 'settling'.

4) I did not say that this job is a great life, far from it.   I am not an alcoholic, nor a hs dropout.  I have tried to get professional work, but it is hard, for all the reasons I have reiterated here over the years, and every year I just get a year older.   But I will keep on looking.   It probably ought not be very hard to see why I do this, nor why I think doing so is preferable to just saying, 'I give up'.

5) You are right about those business networking, although for a variety of reasons less right now than say 10-20 years ago.   But this has never been the way professional jobs in the academic and librarian career paths I have followed has been acquired, at least not since the Baby Boomers go to college era when guys like that PhD in '59 dude had all those job offers without having applied for a single one, and before he actually had completed the doctorate.

6) It is certainly true that many new college students, however bright, have critical thinking deficits owing to sh*tty schooling (and also perhaps crappy homes, etc.), but this ought not be license to give up on such students, or even just to decide that trying to teach serious liberal arts-style critical thinking (which is much more advanced than almost any entering college kid will already possess) is a hopeless and useless affair.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 02, 2020, 05:15:29 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 01, 2020, 11:10:34 PM

You are right that I have not 'made my peace' with settling for a potential career up the retail ladder.   The job is undesirable, and I can and will still look for permanent fulfilling professional work.   To 'make my peace' with such a job would likely be a psychic crusher.   Just tonight, a guy used the f word several times, and threatened to talk to a manager (I did not want to let him hold up the checkout line, which was long, because he had to go back to his car to get his wallet-- he had to go to the back of the line).   This does not make me feel good, and methinks most regular posters in places like these fora would not, ahem, last very long working at Wallyworld in Rusty City-- management would actually be worse, due to the ethical challenges, and the soul-crushing acceptance of such 'settling'.

...

I have tried to get professional work, but it is hard, for all the reasons I have reiterated here over the years, and every year I just get a year older.   But I will keep on looking.   It probably ought not be very hard to see why I do this, nor why I think doing so is preferable to just saying, 'I give up'.

...

It is certainly true that many new college students, however bright, have critical thinking deficits owing to sh*tty schooling (and also perhaps crappy homes, etc.), but this ought not be license to give up on such students, or even just to decide that trying to teach serious liberal arts-style critical thinking (which is much more advanced than almost any entering college kid will already possess) is a hopeless and useless affair.
Two questions:

1. What is "liberal arts-style critical thinking", and how does it differ from "professional" or "STEM" critical thinking (or any other sort for that matter)?

2. If you saw a younger person with a similar background to you, i.e. classics PhD,  30-something, what career advice would you give? Since admittedly changing directions at 50-something is a big challenge, the person a couple decades younger should have  more options, including abandoning academia entirely.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on December 02, 2020, 06:54:13 AM
I think "liberal arts style critical thinking" would mean taking a generalized approach *before* getting too narrowed by field specific thinking (which is still critical thinking, and may be more efficient, but doesn't have a lot of use outside of the area).

One of the issues I have in STEM is that researchers (including students and their mentors) don't seem to have a general problem solving approach. Its more like "what algorithm can I beat this down with?"
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 02, 2020, 11:24:17 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on December 02, 2020, 06:54:13 AM
I think "liberal arts style critical thinking" would mean taking a generalized approach *before* getting too narrowed by field specific thinking (which is still critical thinking, and may be more efficient, but doesn't have a lot of use outside of the area).

One of the issues I have in STEM is that researchers (including students and their mentors) don't seem to have a general problem solving approach. Its more like "what algorithm can I beat this down with?"

I'm having a hard time imagining an example where those two options would both occur. Most problems would either have a significant quantitative component or not; the "generalized" approach suggests a non-quantitative problem, whereas the "algorithmic" approach suggests a quantitative one.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on December 02, 2020, 10:12:34 PM
1) Marshy is right about the specific needs of dealing with quantitative problems, something I have less interest or experience in, and does not generally occur in the areas of life, professional and personal, that are common to me.   'Liberal arts-style critical thinking' is pretty much what ruralguy notes, but I would add in a specific component of verbal reasoning, acquired through significant reading, writing, and seminar-style instruction, something that, like it or not, you do not get in engineering school.

2) Good point about how I would talk to that 33yo newbie classics PhD, 20 years younger than me.   I would have to encourage him to do various things to decide quickly whether a tt job would be coming his way, not give this more than a year or two, and right away get to work looking for alternative professional work.   Truth be said, if teaching is his forte, I would encourage him to get state teacher certification and/ or an MAT (preferably in another related field, since his PhD would already cover him for classics-related courses).   If he is primarily interested in research/ writing, I would encourage him to try to branch out collaterally into careers where his PhD could be useful, and before age discrimination and long-term professional underemployment substantially attenuate his chances.  One more thing, and this works even better if he is still actively on-site/ in close contact, with his doctoral advisor, I would press his doctoral dept to give him real help, and be annoying abou tit if necessary, not worrying about hurting feelings, if needed.    But of course, that 33yo PhD newbie is already at least somewhat stuck-- I would be even more eager to get these conversations started with the 28yo grad students, who really could make some real changes that would help them professionally.   Sadly, this has become  even more necessary because, like it or not, classics PhD depts (and methinks they are not alone) have shown no responsibility to limit new PhD production.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 03, 2020, 06:00:31 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 02, 2020, 10:12:34 PM

2) Good point about how I would talk to that 33yo newbie classics PhD, 20 years younger than me.   I would have to encourage him to do various things to decide quickly whether a tt job would be coming his way, not give this more than a year or two, and right away get to work looking for alternative professional work.   Truth be said, if teaching is his forte, I would encourage him to get state teacher certification and/ or an MAT (preferably in another related field, since his PhD would already cover him for classics-related courses).   If he is primarily interested in research/ writing, I would encourage him to try to branch out collaterally into careers where his PhD could be useful, and before age discrimination and long-term professional underemployment substantially attenuate his chances.  One more thing, and this works even better if he is still actively on-site/ in close contact, with his doctoral advisor, I would press his doctoral dept to give him real help, and be annoying about it if necessary, not worrying about hurting feelings, if needed.  

How is this different than what you did? From what you've said, it wasn't a lack of effort on your part that was the problem, so doubling down on that isn't likely to be any more effective.

As for the supervisor, if s/he is out of touch on the current job market, how probable is it that the department can provide any "real help"?

Quote
But of course, that 33yo PhD newbie is already at least somewhat stuck-- I would be even more eager to get these conversations started with the 28yo grad students, who really could make some real changes that would help them professionally.   Sadly, this has become  even more necessary because, like it or not, classics PhD depts (and methinks they are not alone) have shown no responsibility to limit new PhD production.

OK, so what would you tell the grad students who really want to make this a career?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 03, 2020, 09:40:49 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 01, 2020, 11:10:34 PM
Continuing random thoughts and responses;

1) There is no question that nowadays a new MLS with no actual library work experience cannot get a librarian job-- there would be too much competition.   This, however, was not always the case.   My library school days were coequal with the calendar year 2000-- I started in Jan. and took max course loads for all three semesters, including the intense summer school semester, largely because, just having finished up my PhD, I was running low on money and on patience for long-time additional school, and wanted to get through the MLS asap in order to actually get a job.   My MLS advisor, a 60-ish guy who was chair of the dept., thought this was fine, as did all the other professors I had.   None ever advised me to slow up and try to get some sort of paraprofessional library work during library school, or even mentioned that it was a good idea to do so (some of my fellow MLS students were so working, but most of these people were certainly not going to lib school ft, and many were on track to take several years to earn a degree which really could have been earned in a year).   Further, no professor ever offered to assist me even in obtaining an internship, let alone suggested I needed to do so, and the advisor/ chair, when he interviewed me for admission, thought this plan was just fine, and when I asked what he thought my chance of getting a professional job on completion was, he replied 'virtually 100% as long as you are willing to relocate'.   Indeed, the dept also offered essentially no assistance to its completing students and recent alumni, in terms of looking for that first job, and actually piggybacked on a business school professional advisor in the uni's career counseling office, to assist library students in preparing resumes, covers, interview strategies, etc.-- she, by her own admission, knew nothing of libraries, and gave much rather useless, business-oriented advice that was inappropriate to libraries (though I did not find that out till later).  Obviously, I have mentioned before that my lis school was essentially a diploma mill that actually lost its ALA accreditation 5 years after I graduated, , but I bring up this trip down memory lane to point out that the rules really were different in the 20th century, and it just won't do to hold people retroactively accountable for not having done what no one ever told them to do, esp when the thing in question really was just not done in the era in question.

A library career isn't necessarily out of the question even now.  It's not too unusual for people to get into it later in life.  You could still potentially find paraprofessional employment and start working your way up again.  Granted, even that may take persistence, if you're in an area where hiring is very tight.  Even if it does take time, though, and even if you find yourself stuck in full-time paraprofessional work for years on end, it's got to be better than working for Wal Mart.

The thing is, you have to decide that you want to do it.  And show potential library employers that you do.  We're like any other employers.  We want people who are 1) Trustworthy and reliable  2) Get along well with members of the public and other staff members  3) Are humble and willing to learn.  Don't sell yourself short--education and critical thinking skills are a definite plus in the library world.  You've got something worthwhile to offer in that respect.  But those first three qualities are of paramount importance.

Kay, you remind me very much of myself twenty-odd years ago when I washed out of that PhD program.  I was very embittered and disillusioned.  I questioned why God ever allowed this to happen to me, after everything I'd done for him (Boy, what a foolish attitude that is to have!). 

The library gig that I got at that time (I'd been working with the campus library as a student assistant, and was able to get on full time) was not at all what I'd wanted for myself.  But I stuck with it for years.  I did it to the best of my ability, and was willing to take on more responsibilities.  When I was reassigned for a time to other duties I didn't like as much, I did them without a lot of complaining.  I did two and a half years of part-time library school, had to drop out short of a degree for personal reasons (Long story), and then had to do the degree all over again when I found that my earlier credits had aged out.

All of which is to say that I know something about following a long, slow, frustrating path.  Some of us just have to take that kind of path.  It doesn't seem fair.  In some ways it really isn't.  But it's the reality that some of us have to face in life.  For those of us who profess to be Christians, it's God's way of teaching us to get over ourselves and accept that it's not all about us.  That we can't expect to control what happens to us, only what we do with it.  I guess some of us just take longer to learn that lesson.  It's certainly taken me a long time. 

I can tell you one thing, though--the more I've learned that lesson, to trust God and be content in whatever life situation I've been placed in, the more rewarding life has become.  Not because God has eventually let me gain everything I ever wanted in life.  That hasn't happened, and clearly never will.  It's because I've learned that following God with contentment is great gain.  Seems like somebody once said that in the New Testament....

I'm rooting for you and praying for you in this, kay.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on December 03, 2020, 07:31:40 PM
1) WRT what to tell that 28yo grad student today, who claims extreme eagerness to go into academia as a classicist, I would tell him things like this a) I had the same issues25 years ago, but was operating with very much different advice owing to poor information, and the rules have changed-- those rules will not, moreover, be changing back b) no matter how bright you are, where you are going to grad school, how wonderful you think you are, etc., you cannot alter reality.   You must, therefore, take proactive steps pdq, in order to avoid endemic underemployment.   b) then we could talk about what those steps should be, elaborating on what I said above.    It is true that if his advisors are 60+ Ivy Leaguers who remain studiedly clueless, this will be a hard sell for me, but if placed into a position of actually being able to advise such a student, I suppose I had better at least try.

2) WRT that 33yo newbie PhD, I get that it would already be pretty late in the game for him to adjust to these realities, but better late than never.

3) apl, thanks very much for answering.   I deeply respect you and your views, but they are wrong here.   Put simply, this is not 20 years ago, and I am not 33 anymore.   I am not able to 'work my way up', from such a position, starting now.   But that is perhaps a cop-out response-- what is more honest is that I do not want and will not take a paraprofessional position, *even if someone would give me one, which I highly doubt.   Low Walmart-style wages aside, paraprofessional employment for me, an educated professional MLS, PhD holder, with years of experience both in various teaching roles and in libraries, is and would be inappropriate.   But quite frankly, I would not be the best fit for such a job in any case-- it would be very difficult for me to submit to the direction and oversight of people who should not be in such a position over me, and the paraprofessional tasks that would be assigned to me would be insulting, and professionally stifling.   This may well sound haughty and unchristian, but it would be violating the 9th commandment for me to tell you differently, or to tell a library interviewer differently as well.   For a comparison, I remember a phone interview I had back in 2014, for a position teaching Latin at a Christian school in a southern state.   The headmaster, about my age, had no background with Latin, so he asked the current Latin teacher to join us on the interview-- the young man was around 25, had graduated from college 2 years earlier and gotten the job at the school, and was now set to leave, in order to go to grad school himself.   This boy asked me a question regarding my familiarity with high school Latin textbook X, something I had vaguely heard of and certainly had no familiarity with, which I said.   The kid then adopted a very negative attitude towards me for the rest of the interview, and, of course, I never even received the courtesy of a rejection email from the school.   I remember, after hanging up the phone that night, thinking directly, 'what the hell is this boy doing interviewing me?  (and, of course, why did his boss think it was appropriate for him to do so, as well?)'   I decided not to write the guy back after it had become clear I was not wanted, but even now I do not like the experience.  This is almost certainly how I would react to be put into a position of serving as a paraprofessional in more or less any library.  Like it or not.   Now I see your point, wrt the embitterment-- I am not really angry with God, but I confess to being very angry with people who lied to me, largely for their own financial reasons (they wanted tuition paying qualified students).   Now my library school was justly stripped of its ALA accreditation, of course, but most other schools, not only in that era but today, are still likely in the position of telling impressionable kids and (at least somewhat) older adults looking for career alternatives, things that are not right, not true, not likely to come to pass, etc., and, as well, not fulfilling any sense of duty to those students, in terms of giving them any assistance in actually making professional use of those degrees.   My own experience notwithstanding, it is really not wrong for me to decry these behaviors.   
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on December 04, 2020, 05:28:15 AM
Not dire financial straits, but doesn't seem to fit elsewhere.

Letter about budget at UC Boulder College of Arts & Sciences:
http://view.communications.cu.edu/?qs=3224887bffcee47c024592e1ac5bddb6dcebe85e337a8cab26b631423cdc14970fbadf6386134f6d0d3067b0935dd188299c27a50fae2c4cfa17e833a664c587cec4af6305595157cf4c8da689e8ef10 (http://view.communications.cu.edu/?qs=3224887bffcee47c024592e1ac5bddb6dcebe85e337a8cab26b631423cdc14970fbadf6386134f6d0d3067b0935dd188299c27a50fae2c4cfa17e833a664c587cec4af6305595157cf4c8da689e8ef10)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 04, 2020, 05:43:21 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 03, 2020, 07:31:40 PM

2) WRT that 33yo newbie PhD, I get that it would already be pretty late in the game for him to adjust to these realities, but better late than never.


This strikes me as incredibly defeatist and close-minded. There are many people on here who have made major life changes a lot later than this and thrived. If completing a PhD basically sets a person's life course in stone, no-one should ever encourage anyone they care about to even consider one.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on December 04, 2020, 06:02:48 AM
The University of Vermont cuts 12 majors and 11 minors "that can no longer be supported without jeopardizing programs with more robust enrollment." The Board of Trustees, the university president and provost all expect the college to "move forward on this plan expeditiously. There is no other way forward for [the college] to balance its budget."

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/12/04/u-vermont-cut-12-majors-11-minors
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 04, 2020, 06:11:57 AM
Quote from: Vkw10 on December 04, 2020, 05:28:15 AM
Not dire financial straits, but doesn't seem to fit elsewhere.

Letter about budget at UC Boulder College of Arts & Sciences:
http://view.communications.cu.edu/?qs=3224887bffcee47c024592e1ac5bddb6dcebe85e337a8cab26b631423cdc14970fbadf6386134f6d0d3067b0935dd188299c27a50fae2c4cfa17e833a664c587cec4af6305595157cf4c8da689e8ef10 (http://view.communications.cu.edu/?qs=3224887bffcee47c024592e1ac5bddb6dcebe85e337a8cab26b631423cdc14970fbadf6386134f6d0d3067b0935dd188299c27a50fae2c4cfa17e833a664c587cec4af6305595157cf4c8da689e8ef10)


This is even more concerning than Vermont's move

"The University of Colorado at Boulder's College of Arts and Sciences dean said this week t (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/04/boulder-arts-and-sciences-dean-wants-build-back-faculty-post-pandemic-one-non-tenure)hat he hopes to replace 50 tenured and tenure-track faculty members with 25 instructors who will teach more and earn less. His goal is to build more flexibility into the college's post-COVID-19 budget."

It is better to eliminate unsupportable programs than to create Potemkin departments. If you are a school like CU Boulder, you have to do it right or don't' do it at all.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 04, 2020, 07:38:48 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on December 04, 2020, 06:02:48 AM
The University of Vermont cuts 12 majors and 11 minors "that can no longer be supported without jeopardizing programs with more robust enrollment." The Board of Trustees, the university president and provost all expect the college to "move forward on this plan expeditiously. There is no other way forward for [the college] to balance its budget."

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/12/04/u-vermont-cut-12-majors-11-minors

Their list of programs to be cut includes many of the usual suspects, like European languages that aren't Spanish and classical civilization.  But it also includes some ostensibly trendy fields like Latin American and Caribbean studies.  Those fields are experiencing a shake-out too.

At this point there can't be more than a handful of German and Italian programs left anywhere.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 04, 2020, 07:43:09 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 04, 2020, 07:38:48 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on December 04, 2020, 06:02:48 AM
The University of Vermont cuts 12 majors and 11 minors "that can no longer be supported without jeopardizing programs with more robust enrollment." The Board of Trustees, the university president and provost all expect the college to "move forward on this plan expeditiously. There is no other way forward for [the college] to balance its budget."

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/12/04/u-vermont-cut-12-majors-11-minors

Their list of programs to be cut includes many of the usual suspects, like European languages that aren't Spanish and classical civilization.  But it also includes some ostensibly trendy fields like Latin American and Caribbean studies.  Those fields are experiencing a shake-out too.

At this point there can't be more than a handful of German and Italian programs left anywhere.
The oddball major in the list is geology. In looking at the College Scorecard yesterday, I noticed that geology majors had remakably low salaries relative to other science majors. In the past, geologists were hired in the mining industry and made good money. Perhaps those salary numbers are turning rock-heads toward other majors?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 04, 2020, 07:48:24 AM
Quote from: Hibush on December 04, 2020, 06:11:57 AM
Quote from: Vkw10 on December 04, 2020, 05:28:15 AM
Not dire financial straits, but doesn't seem to fit elsewhere.

Letter about budget at UC Boulder College of Arts & Sciences:
http://view.communications.cu.edu/?qs=3224887bffcee47c024592e1ac5bddb6dcebe85e337a8cab26b631423cdc14970fbadf6386134f6d0d3067b0935dd188299c27a50fae2c4cfa17e833a664c587cec4af6305595157cf4c8da689e8ef10 (http://view.communications.cu.edu/?qs=3224887bffcee47c024592e1ac5bddb6dcebe85e337a8cab26b631423cdc14970fbadf6386134f6d0d3067b0935dd188299c27a50fae2c4cfa17e833a664c587cec4af6305595157cf4c8da689e8ef10)


This is even more concerning than Vermont's move

"The University of Colorado at Boulder's College of Arts and Sciences dean said this week t (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/04/boulder-arts-and-sciences-dean-wants-build-back-faculty-post-pandemic-one-non-tenure)hat he hopes to replace 50 tenured and tenure-track faculty members with 25 instructors who will teach more and earn less. His goal is to build more flexibility into the college's post-COVID-19 budget."

It is better to eliminate unsupportable programs than to create Potemkin departments. If you are a school like CU Boulder, you have to do it right or don't' do it at all.

They get points for pointing out the brutal reality that they have a lot less money now due to loss of revenues and COVID-related expenses, and that what they have to cut is mostly salaries.  If the money's not there to keep everybody on, it's just not there.  It does seem like it would be wiser to eliminate some programs altogether than to keep on a bunch of gutted programs.

Nugget of wisdom from the end of the notice:  "The future begins now."  What an insight!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on December 04, 2020, 10:24:43 PM
The news from UVM really depresses me.   I actually took my classics MA there, which was an excellent, old-style classics program, one that used to be the foundation of the undergrad experience at the school.   And I took a grad German seminar too, and had the professor serve on my MA thesis defense committee.    UVM used to be essentially a SLAC, albeit with the 'State Agricultural College' appended to it-- now what is to become of it?   Of course, the state of VT itself is hardly a growth area....
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 05, 2020, 05:05:23 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 04, 2020, 10:24:43 PM
The news from UVM really depresses me.   I actually took my classics MA there, which was an excellent, old-style classics program, one that used to be the foundation of the undergrad experience at the school.   And I took a grad German seminar too, and had the professor serve on my MA thesis defense committee.    UVM used to be essentially a SLAC, albeit with the 'State Agricultural College' appended to it-- now what is to become of it?   Of course, the state of VT itself is hardly a growth area....
Vermont is such a small state that running a college is a challenge. The state only has 600,000 people, so it is almost like a small city and its suburbs supporting a major college. For comparison, Myrtle Beach, SC and Fort Wayne, IN metro areas have similar populations.

The university is much larger than what the state can support, so ⅔ of the undergrads are from out of state (tuition $44 thousand) and tuition is 3/4 of the budget. Only ~10% ($70 million) of the budget (https://www.uvm.edu/sites/default/files/Division-of-Finance/Publications/Buddoc_FY_2020.pdf) comes from the state appropriation. Financially, it resembles a large (10 thousand undergrad) tuition-dependent private college.

The graduate program is only one thousand total, and I can't tell whether that is self-supporting.

Demand for the classic education, whether old-style or new and funky, in Vermont has been dropping. As we've been logging on this thread, smaller institutions in Vermont have been closing or threatened with closing. UVM needs to have a clear picture of who will be paying for their services ten years hence, and how much.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on December 05, 2020, 07:52:17 AM
Quote from: Hibush on December 04, 2020, 06:11:57 AM
Quote from: Vkw10 on December 04, 2020, 05:28:15 AM
Not dire financial straits, but doesn't seem to fit elsewhere.

Letter about budget at UC Boulder College of Arts & Sciences:
http://view.communications.cu.edu/?qs=3224887bffcee47c024592e1ac5bddb6dcebe85e337a8cab26b631423cdc14970fbadf6386134f6d0d3067b0935dd188299c27a50fae2c4cfa17e833a664c587cec4af6305595157cf4c8da689e8ef10 (http://view.communications.cu.edu/?qs=3224887bffcee47c024592e1ac5bddb6dcebe85e337a8cab26b631423cdc14970fbadf6386134f6d0d3067b0935dd188299c27a50fae2c4cfa17e833a664c587cec4af6305595157cf4c8da689e8ef10)


This is even more concerning than Vermont's move

"The University of Colorado at Boulder's College of Arts and Sciences dean said this week t (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/04/boulder-arts-and-sciences-dean-wants-build-back-faculty-post-pandemic-one-non-tenure)hat he hopes to replace 50 tenured and tenure-track faculty members with 25 instructors who will teach more and earn less. His goal is to build more flexibility into the college's post-COVID-19 budget."

It is better to eliminate unsupportable programs than to create Potemkin departments. If you are a school like CU Boulder, you have to do it right or don't' do it at all.

Not to minimize the budget problems there, but they have over 1000 TT/T faculty members, so cutting 50 (through retirements) is hardly creating "Potemkin departments".

Although the pandemic has made things worse, the problems with the CU system long predate it, and result largely from the severe under-funding of higher ed by the state (last I checked CU Boulder was getting less than 5% of its budget from the state). This in turn is largely a result of a state budget with very little flexibility in it due to the people in their infinite past wisdom passing a series of initiatives that (a) limited the ability to raise revenue and save it for a rainy day, and (b) pre-committing big %s of the budget to specific uses (K-12, roads, etc.) which were all worthy causes in themselves but add up to most of the budget collectively.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on December 05, 2020, 08:06:53 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 05, 2020, 07:52:17 AM
Quote from: Hibush on December 04, 2020, 06:11:57 AM
Quote from: Vkw10 on December 04, 2020, 05:28:15 AM
Not dire financial straits, but doesn't seem to fit elsewhere.

Letter about budget at UC Boulder College of Arts & Sciences:
http://view.communications.cu.edu/?qs=3224887bffcee47c024592e1ac5bddb6dcebe85e337a8cab26b631423cdc14970fbadf6386134f6d0d3067b0935dd188299c27a50fae2c4cfa17e833a664c587cec4af6305595157cf4c8da689e8ef10 (http://view.communications.cu.edu/?qs=3224887bffcee47c024592e1ac5bddb6dcebe85e337a8cab26b631423cdc14970fbadf6386134f6d0d3067b0935dd188299c27a50fae2c4cfa17e833a664c587cec4af6305595157cf4c8da689e8ef10)


This is even more concerning than Vermont's move

"The University of Colorado at Boulder's College of Arts and Sciences dean said this week t (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/04/boulder-arts-and-sciences-dean-wants-build-back-faculty-post-pandemic-one-non-tenure)hat he hopes to replace 50 tenured and tenure-track faculty members with 25 instructors who will teach more and earn less. His goal is to build more flexibility into the college's post-COVID-19 budget."

It is better to eliminate unsupportable programs than to create Potemkin departments. If you are a school like CU Boulder, you have to do it right or don't' do it at all.

Not to minimize the budget problems there, but they have over 1000 TT/T faculty members, so cutting 50 (through retirements) is hardly creating "Potemkin departments".

Although the pandemic has made things worse, the problems with the CU system long predate it, and result largely from the severe under-funding of higher ed by the state (last I checked CU Boulder was getting less than 5% of its budget from the state). This in turn is largely a result of a state budget with very little flexibility in it due to the people in their infinite past wisdom passing a series of initiatives that (a) limited the ability to raise revenue and save it for a rainy day, and (b) pre-committing big %s of the budget to specific uses (K-12, roads, etc.) which were all worthy causes in themselves but add up to most of the budget collectively.

Why not replace James White with 3 part-time Deans for the College of Arts and Science? Hourly wages, with contracts limited to 30 hours/week, so no overtime, no retirement matching or pension contribution, and no healthcare benefits? I bet you'd save a bundle, and get a lot more productivity.

Never waste a good pandemic.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on December 05, 2020, 01:21:26 PM
Quote from: Hibush on December 04, 2020, 07:43:09 AM
The oddball major in the list is geology. In looking at the College Scorecard yesterday, I noticed that geology majors had remakably low salaries relative to other science majors. In the past, geologists were hired in the mining industry and made good money. Perhaps those salary numbers are turning rock-heads toward other majors?
Good geology program is very expensive to run and does not scale well. All those field schools with a dozen students per prof and labs with expensive equipment. So, not many geology programs are actually good. Even before the recent commodities price drop, mining industry was employing only a small minority of graduates. Many of the rest are competing for generic environmental jobs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on December 05, 2020, 01:43:35 PM
Many years ago we thought if we were ever going to add an interdisciplinary physicist, it would be a geophysicist. But, yeah, we began to realize that this field was going out of favor compared to others, and that we'd never be able to nab the few successful ones anyway.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on December 05, 2020, 02:43:25 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on December 05, 2020, 08:06:53 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 05, 2020, 07:52:17 AM
Quote from: Hibush on December 04, 2020, 06:11:57 AM
Quote from: Vkw10 on December 04, 2020, 05:28:15 AM
Not dire financial straits, but doesn't seem to fit elsewhere.

Letter about budget at UC Boulder College of Arts & Sciences:
http://view.communications.cu.edu/?qs=3224887bffcee47c024592e1ac5bddb6dcebe85e337a8cab26b631423cdc14970fbadf6386134f6d0d3067b0935dd188299c27a50fae2c4cfa17e833a664c587cec4af6305595157cf4c8da689e8ef10 (http://view.communications.cu.edu/?qs=3224887bffcee47c024592e1ac5bddb6dcebe85e337a8cab26b631423cdc14970fbadf6386134f6d0d3067b0935dd188299c27a50fae2c4cfa17e833a664c587cec4af6305595157cf4c8da689e8ef10)


This is even more concerning than Vermont's move

"The University of Colorado at Boulder's College of Arts and Sciences dean said this week t (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/04/boulder-arts-and-sciences-dean-wants-build-back-faculty-post-pandemic-one-non-tenure)hat he hopes to replace 50 tenured and tenure-track faculty members with 25 instructors who will teach more and earn less. His goal is to build more flexibility into the college's post-COVID-19 budget."

It is better to eliminate unsupportable programs than to create Potemkin departments. If you are a school like CU Boulder, you have to do it right or don't' do it at all.

Not to minimize the budget problems there, but they have over 1000 TT/T faculty members, so cutting 50 (through retirements) is hardly creating "Potemkin departments".

Although the pandemic has made things worse, the problems with the CU system long predate it, and result largely from the severe under-funding of higher ed by the state (last I checked CU Boulder was getting less than 5% of its budget from the state). This in turn is largely a result of a state budget with very little flexibility in it due to the people in their infinite past wisdom passing a series of initiatives that (a) limited the ability to raise revenue and save it for a rainy day, and (b) pre-committing big %s of the budget to specific uses (K-12, roads, etc.) which were all worthy causes in themselves but add up to most of the budget collectively.

Why not replace James White with 3 part-time Deans for the College of Arts and Science? Hourly wages, with contracts limited to 30 hours/week, so no overtime, no retirement matching or pension contribution, and no healthcare benefits? I bet you'd save a bundle, and get a lot more productivity.

Never waste a good pandemic.

How the hell would that help the Patriots' offense? Lol.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on December 05, 2020, 05:28:26 PM
The loss of 'Vermont Studies' seems too bad. Seems to me like an idea that was unique and had real potential to improve ties between the university, graduates, and the state. Would have been especially cool if they could have successfully drawn a significant out-of-state population, and made the course(s) mandatory for everyone. Alas.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on December 05, 2020, 10:32:08 PM
You are right about the population of VT, of course, but it has never been larger than it is today.   And we have seen various colleges in the state, including the few public ones, threatened with closure (some of the private ones have in fact closed).   But UVM is the state university, which the state can and should support.   But the point you correctly noted wrt enormous quantities of out of staters paying private school-like tuition is the reason why the state legislature itself has not adequately funded it.   All those small state colleges were founded at one point, so there was some demand for public college at one point.   One wonders what happened to such demand, but methinks something like the growing anti-intellectualism of the masses in this country may well have something to do with it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 06, 2020, 06:29:18 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 05, 2020, 10:32:08 PM
You are right about the population of VT, of course, but it has never been larger than it is today.   And we have seen various colleges in the state, including the few public ones, threatened with closure (some of the private ones have in fact closed).   But UVM is the state university, which the state can and should support.   But the point you correctly noted wrt enormous quantities of out of staters paying private school-like tuition is the reason why the state legislature itself has not adequately funded it.   All those small state colleges were founded at one point, so there was some demand for public college at one point.   One wonders what happened to such demand, but methinks something like the growing anti-intellectualism of the masses in this country may well have something to do with it.

Probably some of the change is due to students choosing professional programs which can't be offered at small places, since they need scale to be viable. It's not anti-intellectualism; it's choosing an education based on long term life goals.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TomW on December 06, 2020, 06:53:45 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 03, 2020, 07:31:40 PM
For a comparison, I remember a phone interview I had back in 2014, for a position teaching Latin at a Christian school in a southern state.   The headmaster, about my age, had no background with Latin, so he asked the current Latin teacher to join us on the interview-- the young man was around 25, had graduated from college 2 years earlier and gotten the job at the school, and was now set to leave, in order to go to grad school himself.   This boy asked me a question regarding my familiarity with high school Latin textbook X, something I had vaguely heard of and certainly had no familiarity with, which I said.   The kid then adopted a very negative attitude towards me for the rest of the interview, and, of course, I never even received the courtesy of a rejection email from the school.   I remember, after hanging up the phone that night, thinking directly, 'what the hell is this boy doing interviewing me?  (and, of course, why did his boss think it was appropriate for him to do so, as well?)'   I decided not to write the guy back after it had become clear I was not wanted, but even now I do not like the experience.

This incident jumped out at me. I teach German at a university (and yes, German is still hanging on at a lot of places despite the program closures at so many financially troubled institutions), but my work brings me into contact with a lot of high school German teachers and I know a few people who have transitioned from teaching German in higher ed to teaching it at the high school level. One of the biggest challenges in making that transition is convincing the people doing the hiring for the high school that you REALLY want to teach high schoolers. They are often concerned that people with higher ed backgrounds will demand far too much of the high schoolers or that they will be miserable teaching high school and jump ship at the first opportunity. There are only a handful of high school German textbooks in wide usage in the US, they all have some issues, and high school German teachers tend to have strong opinions about them. I imagine the situation is similar with high school Latin because the market in the US just wouldn't be big enough to support a large range of textbook options. Not having an opinion on a commonly used high school textbook probably got you written off as someone who wasn't REALLY interested in teaching high school.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 06, 2020, 10:53:20 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 05, 2020, 10:32:08 PM
You are right about the population of VT, of course, but it has never been larger than it is today.   And we have seen various colleges in the state, including the few public ones, threatened with closure (some of the private ones have in fact closed).   But UVM is the state university, which the state can and should support.   But the point you correctly noted wrt enormous quantities of out of staters paying private school-like tuition is the reason why the state legislature itself has not adequately funded it.   All those small state colleges were founded at one point, so there was some demand for public college at one point.   One wonders what happened to such demand, but methinks something like the growing anti-intellectualism of the masses in this country may well have something to do with it.

Not correct. Vermont has had negative population growth over the last decade. Twenty percent of its population is 65 or older. Less than a fifth is younger than 18. Less than five percent of residents are immigrants.

For comparison, Texas has had a population growth rate of fifteen percent. A quarter of residents are under age 18. Seventeen percent of residents are immigrants.

State governments began reducing direct budget allocations to university systems in the 1980s. Although Vermont has ranked at or near the bottom in terms of percentage of state revenue allocated to public higher education, it is not alone in this regard.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 07, 2020, 05:44:22 AM
Quote from: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on December 05, 2020, 01:21:26 PM
Quote from: Hibush on December 04, 2020, 07:43:09 AM
The oddball major in the list is geology. In looking at the College Scorecard yesterday, I noticed that geology majors had remakably low salaries relative to other science majors. In the past, geologists were hired in the mining industry and made good money. Perhaps those salary numbers are turning rock-heads toward other majors?
Good geology program is very expensive to run and does not scale well. All those field schools with a dozen students per prof and labs with expensive equipment. So, not many geology programs are actually good. Even before the recent commodities price drop, mining industry was employing only a small minority of graduates. Many of the rest are competing for generic environmental jobs.

In addition, actual mining engineering programs exist in the world and they are better preparation for the mining industry.  Actual environmental science and engineering programs exist in the world and will be better preparation for a generic environmental jobs.

Why would one hire more than the one geologist when what one needs in mining is one each of the various types of engineer, one each of several specialities in business and law and then hordes (although fewer all the time with automation) as physical labor?  Thus, even back in whatever day one wishes, there were far fewer mining industry jobs for geologists than geologists who wanted those jobs.

Geologists are a lot like biologists: many people want to do it and seize upon the public mantra of more STEM without doing the research to find out that what's needed are the math-heavy disciplines, not the math-light ones.  We have plenty of people who are happy to do the science without much math.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 07, 2020, 06:02:51 AM
The Vermont faculty insist that they can somehow stop the cuts: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/07/u-vermont-faculty-members-pledge-fight-planned-cuts-liberal-arts

The classics professor's argument is particularly ineffective when so many of us attended institutions that didn't have a classics department and yet learned philosophy, math, sciences, and logic while becoming responsible citizens supporting the idea of a republic.

Per the Carnegie Classification, University of Vermont is only an R2, which means it cannot be part of the premier research institutions.

From Feb 2019, emphasis added:
Quote
Two classics professors who taught ancient history courses have retired in the past four years and weren't replaced, and now senior lecturer Brian Walsh has not been rehired for next year, Franklin said.

These changes are part of  "right-sizing" efforts to resolve a $1.3 million 2018-19 school year deficit caused by shrinking student enrollment, CAS Dean Bill Falls said.

The changes come as humanities majors have seen a 44 percent decline in enrollment since 2009, according to a Feb. 9 email from Falls and Provost David Rosowsky.

Source: https://vtcynic.com/news/the-changing-face-of-uvm-students-and-faculty-take-a-stand-against-budget-cuts/



From 2018, emphasis added:
Quote
UVM, like many colleges around the country has seen fewer students interested in liberal arts, said Bill Falls, dean of the College of Arts and Sciences. The resulting drop in enrollment in Arts and Sciences classes has led to a teacher surplus, and a $4 million budget shortfall.

The university has not yet adjusted the size of the college's faculty to reflect declining enrollment, Falls said. UVM administrators are in fact giving the college $2 million per year to allow for wiggle room as the budgets are adjusted.

"We have a faculty that was sort of built for enrollments we had in 2010," Falls said. Since then enrollment has decreased by about 17 percent, and while in recent years there have been a slight upswing, enrollment is still below what it was in 2010. The college has a student to faculty ratio of about 14 to 1. Falls said he would like to increase the ratio to 16.5 to 1.

Source: https://vtdigger.org/2018/02/28/uvm-union-protests-proposed-faculty-cuts/

It's almost like the faculty don't want to believe that students aren't coming, despite almost a decade of under enrollment, and that somehow keeping teaching jobs for courses that don't need to be taught should somehow magically occur.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 07, 2020, 06:09:47 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 02, 2020, 10:12:34 PM
1) Marshy is right about the specific needs of dealing with quantitative problems, something I have less interest or experience in, and does not generally occur in the areas of life, professional and personal, that are common to me.   'Liberal arts-style critical thinking' is pretty much what ruralguy notes, but I would add in a specific component of verbal reasoning, acquired through significant reading, writing, and seminar-style instruction, something that, like it or not, you do not get in engineering school.

What makes you think that engineering school doesn't require significant reading and writing experience?  We don't read the same material as the humanities folks, but we do a lot of reading and writing.  That's how we end up with all those reports, memos, and other written material that come out of design and lab courses.

What makes you think we don't have seminar-style instruction?  It's not the same material as the humanities folks, but we do indeed spend a lot of time kicking around ideas based on what we all bring to the table.  The design meetings, many of the advanced labs, and the problem-solving sessions are much more seminar-like than anything else.  They are certainly not formal lectures delivered by the professor to the quiet, note-taking audience.

What makes you think we don't emphasize verbal reasoning in engineering?  That's the only way to deal with all the team projects we have.  One must convince the team that one is correct and then get people to do their parts.  A substantial portion of the engineering job outside of school is interacting with other humans to get them to buy into the plan that can work instead of doing whatever crap they want to do in their magical thinking since they don't understand the science, the technology, or the other constraints including legal and ethical.

There's a case to be made for being proficient in the humanities way of thinking, especially with a useful background of facts and ideas, but it's not that engineering school somehow is deficient in basic reasoning, reading, and writing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 07, 2020, 06:50:00 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 07, 2020, 06:02:51 AM
The Vermont faculty insist that they can somehow stop the cuts: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/07/u-vermont-faculty-members-pledge-fight-planned-cuts-liberal-arts

The classics professor's argument is particularly ineffective when so many of us attended institutions that didn't have a classics department and yet learned philosophy, math, sciences, and logic while becoming responsible citizens supporting the idea of a republic.


The article also notes that "Incentive-based budgeting, the model that determines college funding, allocates money based on the number of credit hours enrolled in by students in a college." 

IBB is very effective if your strategic goal is to have each department focus on maximizing student credit hours by not requiring any courses outside the major and by offering lots of fun non-major courses with easy As. Most departments resist to some degree because they have principles about a good education. The humanities faculty at UVM may have chosen an unsustainable proportion of principle vs practicality.

IBB can also be tweaked to reflect cost differences across disciplines, or to starve the ones you want to shrink. That appears to have been the case: "IBB structurally puts CAS at a disadvantage.... The credit hour weightings are being eliminated in IBB 2.0, which is slated for implementation this summer."

The recent article notes that a petition to save the religion department got 1500 signatures. That sounds like a lot, but to put that in fiscal perspective it is not. According the the UVM Foundation chair's remark in the same article, UVM has tried to address the structural deficit under the IBB program by raising endowments to cover some faculty salaries in those departments. If saving the religion department entails getting two endowed professorships, then each of those signatories would have to back up their sentiment with something like $5,000. That is a much bigger commitment.

The UVM story has quite a few of the elements that determine whether more dire financial straits can be avoided.  It is well worth watching what sustainable model they aspire to be, and what tactics they employ to get there.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 07, 2020, 07:55:07 AM
Quote from: Hibush on December 07, 2020, 06:50:00 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 07, 2020, 06:02:51 AM
The Vermont faculty insist that they can somehow stop the cuts: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/07/u-vermont-faculty-members-pledge-fight-planned-cuts-liberal-arts

The classics professor's argument is particularly ineffective when so many of us attended institutions that didn't have a classics department and yet learned philosophy, math, sciences, and logic while becoming responsible citizens supporting the idea of a republic.


The article also notes that "Incentive-based budgeting, the model that determines college funding, allocates money based on the number of credit hours enrolled in by students in a college." 

IBB is very effective if your strategic goal is to have each department focus on maximizing student credit hours by not requiring any courses outside the major and by offering lots of fun non-major courses with easy As. Most departments resist to some degree because they have principles about a good education. The humanities faculty at UVM may have chosen an unsustainable proportion of principle vs practicality.

This can certainly be a problem for disciplines like math, which is required by many programs. Departments can create their own math courses, "Calculus for Basketweavers" to bring it into their own department. However, this could be de-incentivized by splitting the money for required courses from outside the major department. (If Basketweaving gets 50% of the money without having to actually teach the course, it's a bonus to them unless they get so big that 100% makes it worth having to teach it. It also means that math has to be working to have more of its own majors rather than being almost exclusively a service for others.)


Quote
The recent article notes that a petition to save the religion department got 1500 signatures. That sounds like a lot, but to put that in fiscal perspective it is not. According the the UVM Foundation chair's remark in the same article, UVM has tried to address the structural deficit under the IBB program by raising endowments to cover some faculty salaries in those departments. If saving the religion department entails getting two endowed professorships, then each of those signatories would have to back up their sentiment with something like $5,000. That is a much bigger commitment.

As the saying goes, "Talk is cheap."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 07, 2020, 07:56:25 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 05, 2020, 05:28:26 PM
The loss of 'Vermont Studies' seems too bad. Seems to me like an idea that was unique and had real potential to improve ties between the university, graduates, and the state. Would have been especially cool if they could have successfully drawn a significant out-of-state population, and made the course(s) mandatory for everyone. Alas.

I guess the Dorothy Canfield Fisher Studies program is in trouble too.  Oh well, you can still find copies of her works if you look.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 07, 2020, 08:04:51 AM
Quote from: TomW on December 06, 2020, 06:53:45 AM
I teach German at a university (and yes, German is still hanging on at a lot of places despite the program closures at so many financially troubled institutions), but my work brings me into contact with a lot of high school German teachers and I know a few people who have transitioned from teaching German in higher ed to teaching it at the high school level. One of the biggest challenges in making that transition is convincing the people doing the hiring for the high school that you REALLY want to teach high schoolers. They are often concerned that people with higher ed backgrounds will demand far too much of the high schoolers or that they will be miserable teaching high school and jump ship at the first opportunity. There are only a handful of high school German textbooks in wide usage in the US, they all have some issues, and high school German teachers tend to have strong opinions about them. I imagine the situation is similar with high school Latin because the market in the US just wouldn't be big enough to support a large range of textbook options. Not having an opinion on a commonly used high school textbook probably got you written off as someone who wasn't REALLY interested in teaching high school.

Interesting to hear that high school German is still a thing in the U.S.  I suppose it must be mostly in certain states.  In our state foreign language classes in high school are widespread, but I've never heard of anything other than Spanish and French--and not a whole lot of French--being taught in high school in-state.  It was a revelation to me in the 1990s to learn that Latin was still being taught in states further to the east.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on December 07, 2020, 08:22:50 AM
Some places in the east still teach Middle School Latin.

Boston Latin is still a going concern.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on December 07, 2020, 08:48:04 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 07, 2020, 06:02:51 AM
The Vermont faculty insist that they can somehow stop the cuts: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/07/u-vermont-faculty-members-pledge-fight-planned-cuts-liberal-arts
It is disturbing to see the logic that micromajors are to be preserved for the sake of the faculty, even though they result in a paltry upper level course choice further limiting career prospects for the graduates.

From the article.
On geology, Bailly said there's a reason it has relatively few majors: it teaches "hundreds and hundreds of students from other majors, including environmental sciences." So why have a geology department? "Because the folks who teach it need a home that is really their home. They are geologists. That's their professional organization, their disciplinary springboard for all the amazing interdisciplinary research and teaching they do."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 07, 2020, 09:34:43 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 07, 2020, 08:04:51 AM

Interesting to hear that high school German is still a thing in the U.S.  I suppose it must be mostly in certain states.  In our state foreign language classes in high school are widespread, but I've never heard of anything other than Spanish and French--and not a whole lot of French--being taught in high school in-state.  It was a revelation to me in the 1990s to learn that Latin was still being taught in states further to the east.

My Western US high school still offers both French and German. In my day, those were taught by native speakers. Spanish, of course, since it predates English in much of the West and is common today. Japanese and Mandarin are popular high-school choices as the languages of international commerce and local culture. There is talk that the district is overdue to add Hindi. Latin? I don't think so.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 07, 2020, 10:18:25 AM
Quote from: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on December 07, 2020, 08:48:04 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 07, 2020, 06:02:51 AM
The Vermont faculty insist that they can somehow stop the cuts: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/07/u-vermont-faculty-members-pledge-fight-planned-cuts-liberal-arts
It is disturbing to see the logic that micromajors are to be preserved for the sake of the faculty, even though they result in a paltry upper level course choice further limiting career prospects for the graduates.

From the article.
On geology, Bailly said there's a reason it has relatively few majors: it teaches "hundreds and hundreds of students from other majors, including environmental sciences." So why have a geology department? "Because the folks who teach it need a home that is really their home. They are geologists. That's their professional organization, their disciplinary springboard for all the amazing interdisciplinary research and teaching they do."

Why is it that the faculty who claim that study in the humanities is essential to the development of students' "critical thinking skills" always exhibit an inability to engage in "critical thinking" in these articles?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 07, 2020, 10:24:54 AM
Quote from: spork on December 07, 2020, 10:18:25 AM
Quote from: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on December 07, 2020, 08:48:04 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 07, 2020, 06:02:51 AM
The Vermont faculty insist that they can somehow stop the cuts: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/07/u-vermont-faculty-members-pledge-fight-planned-cuts-liberal-arts
It is disturbing to see the logic that micromajors are to be preserved for the sake of the faculty, even though they result in a paltry upper level course choice further limiting career prospects for the graduates.

From the article.
On geology, Bailly said there's a reason it has relatively few majors: it teaches "hundreds and hundreds of students from other majors, including environmental sciences." So why have a geology department? "Because the folks who teach it need a home that is really their home. They are geologists. That's their professional organization, their disciplinary springboard for all the amazing interdisciplinary research and teaching they do."

Why is it that the faculty who claim that study in the humanities is essential to the development of students' "critical thinking skills" always exhibit an inability to engage in "critical thinking" in these articles?

Probably for the same reason that you get something like this
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 02, 2020, 10:12:34 PM
Marshy is right about the specific needs of dealing with quantitative problems, something I have less interest or experience in, and does not generally occur in the areas of life, professional and personal, that are common to me.   
in a discussion about the challenges of getting rewarding, decent-paying employment with a humanities PhD.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sonoamused on December 07, 2020, 12:42:08 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on November 30, 2020, 07:21:13 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 30, 2020, 06:53:30 PM
2) The MLS route is similar to being an academic; it's one of the standard fallbacks along with teaching high school.  As such, it wasn't a good plan B at any point in the past several decades for someone who isn't already in the system doing the work.  Again, they are looking for someone with experience, not just someone who took the classes.

Not us. We're the place where Librarians get some experience and/or complete a second Master's, and move on up and out after a few years. People who come with experience just don't buy furniture and move out and up more quickly.

I'll concede that the rapid closure of other institutions is changing the market, but I sit on a lot of Library hiring committees, and it hasn't changed that much. Big caveat: We haven't hired anybody, for anything, since COVID, so who knows what it will look like this summer.

I know, I know. Anecdotes aren't data, and one small college isn't a great measure of the market. But there's usually some somewheres that are the bottom rung, and it's worth figuring out where they are, especially for people in jobs where mobility is expected.

he MLS route is similar to being an academic; it's one of the standard fallbacks along with teaching high school.    - wow.  I was going to stay out of this fight, but as one of those MLS holders, this is insulting and in the last 15-20 years, increasingly wrong.   -- Matter of fact, us with MLS degrees (often not called that anymore) try to bounce those dis-heartened academics out of our programs because they have outdated ideas about what it means to be librarians, especially in academia; and if they want to continue on, they usually find themselves with a PhD in library science, and thus, pretty much unemployable as a librarian.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 07, 2020, 01:07:29 PM
Quote from: sonoamused on December 07, 2020, 12:42:08 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on November 30, 2020, 07:21:13 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 30, 2020, 06:53:30 PM
2) The MLS route is similar to being an academic; it's one of the standard fallbacks along with teaching high school.  As such, it wasn't a good plan B at any point in the past several decades for someone who isn't already in the system doing the work.  Again, they are looking for someone with experience, not just someone who took the classes.

Not us. We're the place where Librarians get some experience and/or complete a second Master's, and move on up and out after a few years. People who come with experience just don't buy furniture and move out and up more quickly.

I'll concede that the rapid closure of other institutions is changing the market, but I sit on a lot of Library hiring committees, and it hasn't changed that much. Big caveat: We haven't hired anybody, for anything, since COVID, so who knows what it will look like this summer.

I know, I know. Anecdotes aren't data, and one small college isn't a great measure of the market. But there's usually some somewheres that are the bottom rung, and it's worth figuring out where they are, especially for people in jobs where mobility is expected.

he MLS route is similar to being an academic; it's one of the standard fallbacks along with teaching high school.    - wow.  I was going to stay out of this fight, but as one of those MLS holders, this is insulting and in the last 15-20 years, increasingly wrong.   -- Matter of fact, us with MLS degrees (often not called that anymore) try to bounce those dis-heartened academics out of our programs because they have outdated ideas about what it means to be librarians, especially in academia; and if they want to continue on, they usually find themselves with a PhD in library science, and thus, pretty much unemployable as a librarian.

Have you observed a problem with disheartened academics heading into MLS programs?  Obviously it happens--I was a failed PhD student who got the MLS myself.  But only after I had spent several years actually working in a library and decided that I wanted to make a career of it.  I recall most fellow MLS students being either working library employees like me or young (ish) BA holders who figured they'd give libraries a shot.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: PScientist on December 07, 2020, 10:18:59 PM
On geology, Bailly said there's a reason it has relatively few majors: it teaches "hundreds and hundreds of students from other majors, including environmental sciences." So why have a geology department? "Because the folks who teach it need a home that is really their home. They are geologists. That's their professional organization, their disciplinary springboard for all the amazing interdisciplinary research and teaching they do."


I have made an argument similar to this in defense of our physics major before; we only graduate a few majors per year.  The truth is that, if we had to teach only first-year classes to non-majors only, I would probably quit and find something else to do, and I suspect my colleagues would as well.  Hiring and retaining reasonably qualified faculty can be hard at small underfunded institutions in fields where faculty tend to have skills that enable them to work elsewhere.

(However, the comment about career prospects doesn't apply; although we have a minimal set of upper-division physics courses, our graduates have done fine, along a wide range of career paths.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 08, 2020, 02:45:39 AM
https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/annotations-u-vermont-story (https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/annotations-u-vermont-story)

"If the masses can't rise above denial, that doesn't mean denial is right."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 08, 2020, 05:42:00 AM
Quote from: spork on December 08, 2020, 02:45:39 AM
https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/annotations-u-vermont-story (https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/annotations-u-vermont-story)

"If the masses can't rise above denial, that doesn't mean denial is right."

"In theory, it's conceivable that high-minded civic virtue would sweep the land, and nobody would participate out of self-interest.  But that's just not how the world works.  Those who have benefited from existing imbalances -- or who believe they have -- can be counted on to defend them. "

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 08, 2020, 05:53:28 AM
Quote from: sonoamused on December 07, 2020, 12:42:08 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on November 30, 2020, 07:21:13 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 30, 2020, 06:53:30 PM
2) The MLS route is similar to being an academic; it's one of the standard fallbacks along with teaching high school.  As such, it wasn't a good plan B at any point in the past several decades for someone who isn't already in the system doing the work.  Again, they are looking for someone with experience, not just someone who took the classes.

Not us. We're the place where Librarians get some experience and/or complete a second Master's, and move on up and out after a few years. People who come with experience just don't buy furniture and move out and up more quickly.

I'll concede that the rapid closure of other institutions is changing the market, but I sit on a lot of Library hiring committees, and it hasn't changed that much. Big caveat: We haven't hired anybody, for anything, since COVID, so who knows what it will look like this summer.

I know, I know. Anecdotes aren't data, and one small college isn't a great measure of the market. But there's usually some somewheres that are the bottom rung, and it's worth figuring out where they are, especially for people in jobs where mobility is expected.

he MLS route is similar to being an academic; it's one of the standard fallbacks along with teaching high school.    - wow.  I was going to stay out of this fight, but as one of those MLS holders, this is insulting and in the last 15-20 years, increasingly wrong.   -- Matter of fact, us with MLS degrees (often not called that anymore) try to bounce those dis-heartened academics out of our programs because they have outdated ideas about what it means to be librarians, especially in academia; and if they want to continue on, they usually find themselves with a PhD in library science, and thus, pretty much unemployable as a librarian.

My point was not that most librarians and high school teachers are failed academics.  My point, like yours, is would-be academics who choose high school teaching or MLS/MIS/library studies as academic enough to be almost like being college faculty instead of as worthy endeavors in their own right tend to not do very well in obtaining and keeping those HS teaching or library positions.  The librarians and high school teachers bounce those folks quickly as not being serious about becoming acculturated, having the necessary mindset to succeed, and learning the necessary skills.  However, I still see many, many would-be academics who state their fall-back plan is to teach high school or be in libraries/museums as they wait out the market to become a college professor.


The problem is exactly as kaysixteen found: he has a degree that has no bearing on the current needs of being a librarian.  I was surprised to read that kaysixteen was still applying for librarian positions when he didn't seem to know what's standardly available at libraries based on responses to answers he was given or what was required of current librarians to maintain those services.  Being a librarian at this point without fabulous quantitative reasoning skills and a big dollop of tech savvy is a non-starter anywhere I've been interacting with librarians for the past 20 years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 08, 2020, 05:54:45 AM
Quote from: PScientist on December 07, 2020, 10:18:59 PM
On geology, Bailly said there's a reason it has relatively few majors: it teaches "hundreds and hundreds of students from other majors, including environmental sciences." So why have a geology department? "Because the folks who teach it need a home that is really their home. They are geologists. That's their professional organization, their disciplinary springboard for all the amazing interdisciplinary research and teaching they do."


I have made an argument similar to this in defense of our physics major before; we only graduate a few majors per year.  The truth is that, if we had to teach only first-year classes to non-majors only, I would probably quit and find something else to do, and I suspect my colleagues would as well.  Hiring and retaining reasonably qualified faculty can be hard at small underfunded institutions in fields where faculty tend to have skills that enable them to work elsewhere.

(However, the comment about career prospects doesn't apply; although we have a minimal set of upper-division physics courses, our graduates have done fine, along a wide range of career paths.)

If a school had a need for a good intro physics course to serve other majors, but not a physics major, what is the soundest solution? Would it make sense to have a physicist as an NTT lecturer in a different science department to fill that teaching need? It would need to be permanent and competitively compensated to be competitive. What else would the position need to recruit and retain someone who would teach those courses at the same level as intro courses taught by the TT faculty?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 08, 2020, 06:23:03 AM
Quote from: Hibush on December 07, 2020, 06:50:00 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 07, 2020, 06:02:51 AM
The Vermont faculty insist that they can somehow stop the cuts: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/07/u-vermont-faculty-members-pledge-fight-planned-cuts-liberal-arts

The classics professor's argument is particularly ineffective when so many of us attended institutions that didn't have a classics department and yet learned philosophy, math, sciences, and logic while becoming responsible citizens supporting the idea of a republic.


The article also notes that "Incentive-based budgeting, the model that determines college funding, allocates money based on the number of credit hours enrolled in by students in a college." 

IBB is very effective if your strategic goal is to have each department focus on maximizing student credit hours by not requiring any courses outside the major and by offering lots of fun non-major courses with easy As. Most departments resist to some degree because they have principles about a good education. The humanities faculty at UVM may have chosen an unsustainable proportion of principle vs practicality.

The humanities faculty at most institutions are fighting the wrong fight entirely and will lose in most of the foreseeable scenarios because a liberal arts education is not the end all, be all of tertiary education.

Most of the world does not require general education distribution requirements at the tertiary level.  Elementary and secondary education is where citizens learn enough literature, history, basic philosophy, basic math, and basic science to get by.  Tertiary education is about specializing in one field to become proficient.  Oxford undergrad degrees can be three years because they don't have the extra year of general education.  Anyone want to assert that an Oxford degree is not really a university education? 



Thus, all the assertions about the need for general education by the humanities folks rapidly come up against the realities of:

* a general education system of "Pick I of K courses from each of N lists" generally does not result in the goals asserted for a liberal arts education, especially when the math doesn't get up to a whole year of calculus (and through ordinary differential equations is necessary for a true liberal arts education), the science doesn't use calculus or calculus-based probability through the ODEs, and the courses that should be writing intensive with a lot of feedback are taught by overwhelmed faculty who have only one or two writing assignments of a pitiful number of pages with almost no revision for ideas.  If a liberal arts education is truly the goal for all university education, then the current system at most colleges and universities in the US cannot reach that goal.

* force-marching underprepared and/or undermotivated humans through a random series of courses does not result in an educated populace ready to apply those lessons out in the world.  If it did, then the US K-12 system would have much, much better results and again the need for college-level general education would be zero, just as it is in Europe.  Thus, again, the current observable system cannot reach the stated goals of having general education requirements.

* having the majority of general education courses being primarily taught by armies of contingent faculty undermines all assertions on how important general education is at many institutions.  When something is important, that's where the resources go in a healthy institution.  When something is only important enough that it has to exist in some minimal way to check the box for when the auditors come through, then the institution can skimp in that area.

* having so many people in college who aren't prepared and aren't really doing the activities that result in a solid tertiary education instead of just a lot of schooling undermines the assertion that every college/university currently in existence should be saved in nearly its current form as a benefit to society.  If the standards for enrolling in college were raised, then far fewer faculty would be needed to meet that demand and those faculty would spend their time on academic pursuits instead of trying to set up courses that can't be failed by the students-in-name-only.

My European graduate-educated colleagues don't understand the lengthy discussions on how to get students to do what they need to do to succeed.  University students are assumed to be motivated enough to want to take the reasonable activities to learn or they will be weeded out as not currently university material.  The idea that people who don't want to learn should be in college and supported as though they were elementary schoolers who have to be taught how to study is completely absent from their academic worlds.


In summary, if the humanities people were really teaching the courses that everyone needs to be a good citizen and develop critical thinking skills, then there wouldn't be so many of us college-educated folks who could apply our BS detectors and point out how the assertions fail spectacularly at the many, many US institutions where the humanities faculty are basically adjunct to the real endeavors of the institution, even if individuals are currently holding tenured positions, and how other countries have fine tertiary education without anyone having a liberal arts education.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: fourhats on December 08, 2020, 06:32:55 AM
QuoteVermont is such a small state that running a college is a challenge. The state only has 600,000 people, so it is almost like a small city and its suburbs supporting a major college. For comparison, Myrtle Beach, SC and Fort Wayne, IN metro areas have similar populations.

Despite popular belief, UVM is a private, not public or "state" university. It has attracted heavily from outside of Vermont, and had been in recent years getting lots of applicants from around the country. They do get some state funding, but also probably affected the bottom line, but it is not in the same category as the Vermont state schools.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 08, 2020, 07:09:45 AM
Quote from: fourhats on December 08, 2020, 06:32:55 AM
QuoteVermont is such a small state that running a college is a challenge. The state only has 600,000 people, so it is almost like a small city and its suburbs supporting a major college. For comparison, Myrtle Beach, SC and Fort Wayne, IN metro areas have similar populations.

Despite popular belief, UVM is a private, not public or "state" university. It has attracted heavily from outside of Vermont, and had been in recent years getting lots of applicants from around the country. They do get some state funding, but also probably affected the bottom line, but it is not in the same category as the Vermont state schools.

Those would be the same Vermont state schools that were in dire financial straits in summer 2019, well before any pandemic effects?  https://vtdigger.org/2019/06/25/confronting-demographics-state-colleges-consider-reform/

Those would be the Vermont state schools that had a chancellor resign after his solution in April was to consolidate the system into fewer institutions?  https://vtdigger.org/2020/04/17/vermont-state-colleges-chancellor-to-recommend-closing-three-campuses/

Those same Vermont state schools whose board yesterday reported on a plan to consolidate the system to save money, but somehow not close any physical campuses?  https://vtdigger.org/2020/12/07/state-college-trustees-freeze-tuition-explore-unifying-all-the-systems-schools/

Yeah, UVM looks pretty good financially compared to the state schools.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 08, 2020, 07:42:26 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 08, 2020, 05:53:28 AM
Being a librarian at this point without fabulous quantitative reasoning skills and a big dollop of tech savvy is a non-starter anywhere I've been interacting with librarians for the past 20 years.

Part of the reason why libraries insist on years of experience as well as a degree as qualification for professional-level positions is the need to have experience using IT in a library setting.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 08, 2020, 08:11:13 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 08, 2020, 06:23:03 AM

The humanities faculty at most institutions are fighting the wrong fight entirely and will lose in most of the foreseeable scenarios because a liberal arts education is not the end all, be all of tertiary education.

Most of the world does not require general education distribution requirements at the tertiary level.  Elementary and secondary education is where citizens learn enough literature, history, basic philosophy, basic math, and basic science to get by.  Tertiary education is about specializing in one field to become proficient.  Oxford undergrad degrees can be three years because they don't have the extra year of general education.  Anyone want to assert that an Oxford degree is not really a university education? 


I have a question. Is the US emphasis on "liberal arts" and "general education" mainly a consequence of having such a huge number of tiny institutions, where specialization would require any specific place to offer only a handful of majors? It seems to me that in most countries the average (and certainly median) institution size would be much bigger, so that there is the scale to offer several majors at the size that is needed to be financially viable.


If that's the case, then the tail is wagging the dog. "How do we keep small places in business?" "Make everyone take as many of the same courses as possible."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on December 08, 2020, 09:30:30 AM
I think it almost certainly started off as a cultural difference. Many of these small schools are quite old, and many of the rest take after them. So, I think they harken to a day when "gentlemen" were expected to know certain things before going often into society, and then eventually "young ladies" were included, either at first with women's colleges, but then much later, as some of those schools became co-educational. I think that sort of thinking set a broad gen-ed curriculum, though most of those have evolved as the population changed. With time, especially second half of 20th century and later, it became cultural to get (almost) everyone into college, either one of these small ones, or a state school, or much later, the for-profit stuff. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Its helped many get into college who likely would have been closed out 50-100 years earlier. But for a long time, I think especially for traditional aged students, there was a lot of meandering and just leaving with a piece of paper. Some didn't even have majors until the 60's. 

Anyway, I think later, eventually, business models started to creep in. Perhaps that lead to doubling down on gen ed, but at least at my small school, even though we have a fairly big core, over half the students are majoring in one field. To borrow from that field, I think the rest of the majors follow a "Pareto power-law" in terms of number of students:  the next couple of majors down the list graduate maybe 10's instead of hundreds, then the next several, about 10, and the last several, just single digits, and then a couple of legacy fields have zero majors in some years.

Its my understanding that Europeans have been much less focused on getting everyone into a university setting, so by focusing on the motivated, I think programs are focused on what those individuals need to move forward. Some are close to being "pure" liberal arts fields, but I am sure many now are much more vocationally oriented.  I know that's an over-simplication because some countries outside of US have differing types of schools as well.

But I am sure under both a general American model and a more focused European one, folks can be slow to change and get focused on how to save their job and field. So I think that's the sort of thing that can lead to what you are speaking of, Marsh.

Anyway, obviously, I have been painting with broad stokes, but I don't think we just fell into this because tiny schools demanded gen ed because that's all they thought they could support. I wouldn't be surprised to see more of the ones that survive slash and burn their cores and focus on a handful of subjects for specialists, and everyone else can go somewhere else, because they weren't going to those small schools anyway (not anymore).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 08, 2020, 09:44:12 AM
Quote from: fourhats on December 08, 2020, 06:32:55 AM
QuoteVermont is such a small state that running a college is a challenge. The state only has 600,000 people, so it is almost like a small city and its suburbs supporting a major college. For comparison, Myrtle Beach, SC and Fort Wayne, IN metro areas have similar populations.

Despite popular belief, UVM is a private, not public or "state" university. It has attracted heavily from outside of Vermont, and had been in recent years getting lots of applicants from around the country. They do get some state funding, but also probably affected the bottom line, but it is not in the same category as the Vermont state schools.

Partially correct. UVM is the public university  (https://www.uvm.edu/trustees)in Vermont and the others are the public colleges. So they are not in the same category.

It is also true that the state provides a very small proportion of UVMs budget, which means it has to act a lot like a private university while still being beholden to the state legislature and the majority of trustees that are appointed by the state.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on December 08, 2020, 09:57:54 AM

[/quote]

Partially correct. UVM is the public university  (https://www.uvm.edu/trustees)in Vermont and the others are the public colleges. So they are not in the same category.

It is also true that the state provides a very small proportion of UVMs budget, which means it has to act a lot like a private university while still being beholden to the state legislature and the majority of trustees that are appointed by the state.
[/quote]

My impression is that there are very few (any?) states where this is NOT the case with the flagships.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on December 08, 2020, 05:03:29 PM
For 2019 the revenue from state appropriations at UoVT was listed at 12%. About the same for Midwestern Big 10 institutions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on December 09, 2020, 07:15:22 PM
St. Rose has been in this space before. Not sure if this means things are getting better or worse:
https://www.strose.edu/2020/12/08/saint-rose-to-discontinue-academic-programs-as-part-of-proactive-plan-to-address-financial-challenges/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 10, 2020, 01:55:19 AM
Quote from: selecter on December 09, 2020, 07:15:22 PM
St. Rose has been in this space before. Not sure if this means things are getting better or worse:
https://www.strose.edu/2020/12/08/saint-rose-to-discontinue-academic-programs-as-part-of-proactive-plan-to-address-financial-challenges/

That's more than one-fifth of its tenure-track positions eliminated.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 10, 2020, 02:45:01 AM
Quote from: spork on December 10, 2020, 01:55:19 AM
Quote from: selecter on December 09, 2020, 07:15:22 PM
St. Rose has been in this space before. Not sure if this means things are getting better or worse:
https://www.strose.edu/2020/12/08/saint-rose-to-discontinue-academic-programs-as-part-of-proactive-plan-to-address-financial-challenges/

That's more than one-fifth of its tenure-track positions eliminated.

The list of closed programs starts, familiarly, with studio art and music perfomance. Those are expensive programs to run. But going further down the list you get some traditionally popular, employment-oriented and money-making majors like med tech, IT and business.

They must really be looking closely at which majors they can execute well on.

The new efforts are an eclectic mix: nursing, sales and cybersecurity. How many young people watch Glengarry Glen Ross, and think "I want to be that guy! I'm going to major in sales managment at St. Rose."?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on December 10, 2020, 04:59:42 AM
Though I love David Mamet, I don't think he's hot with the kiddos these days.

In any case, you'd be surprised at what local kids say about their life dreams. Some say exactly the sort of thing you just posted (minus the ancient movie/play reference).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on December 10, 2020, 05:38:36 AM
"Western Oregon University is planning to eliminate a number of degree programs following years of declining enrollment, which has only been worsened by the coronavirus pandemic. Some in the campus community said the decision is happening under a rushed timeline, especially as the university's president is set to retire next year.

In a finalized plan, released last week by a task force that included WOU President Rex Fuller, the university said it will eliminate majors including anthropology, philosophy and geography, as well as its master's programs in information systems and in music. The plan said the cuts were necessary because of low or declining enrollment.

From 2011 to 2020, the regional university's enrollment has decreased by more than 25%, according to WOU.

Those program curtailments, as well as the additional elimination of some minors and certificate programs, will cut about 30 full-time faculty positions through both layoffs and expired contracts, according to WOU."

https://www.opb.org/article/2020/12/08/western-oregon-university-majors-programs-covid-19/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 10, 2020, 05:52:27 AM
Quote from: Hibush on December 10, 2020, 02:45:01 AM
The new efforts are an eclectic mix: nursing, sales and cybersecurity. How many young people watch Glengarry Glen Ross, and think "I want to be that guy! I'm going to major in sales managment at St. Rose."?

You don't know the young people I know if you are asking that question as a sarcastic "people don't want to be that guy!". 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4PE2hSqVnk (Glengarry Glen Ross: bad language) and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfIKzReNDF4 (Boiler Room: much bad language) has a big thumbs up among many of the aspiring business majors at many places I've been.  They want to be Ben Affleck's character in the five years after graduation. But, for some reason, those folks don't seem to make the connection that people who go to a Super Dinky don't become the 27-year-old millionaires who is smiling ear to ear regarding their liquidity.  They don't seem to realize that they would have to go to an elite institution, make the right connections, and be convincing to the recruiters that they are the people who won't burn out in the first six months, but will instead be working their 80 hours right up until they are fired for not making partner to make room for the next cohort. 

They could maybe become Alec Baldwin if they go to the bigger city and create a professional network that feeds them regular leads, but they don't understand that their best likely possibility are going to be Bob at the local Bob's Appliances or Crazy Eddie at the local Cars, Cars, Cars! making a good middle class income by shaking a lot of hands, sponsoring every softball/bowling/pick-up-league team, and advertising in every local outlet every week.

Likewise, aspiring students pick up that cybersecurity is how many people are making good money in a "new" field.  Those aspiring students also buy into the idea that a college degree in the field will get them that fancy job with the FBI, CIA, or a big corporation.  Those aspiring students don't know about the people who have been already programming and being system admins since they were in middle school who have those cybersecurity jobs and will be their direct competition.  Those aspiring students don't know about the university programs where the big players have partnered to offer co-ops, internships, and project classes so the new graduates already have a couple years of directly relevant experience and that those programs are older than the entering students in this "new" area.  Again, St. Rose may be trying hard, but they are very unlikely to be as good an option as a cybersecurity program that grew out of good other programs in technology/IT/CS and criminal justice.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 10, 2020, 06:25:34 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 08, 2020, 08:11:13 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 08, 2020, 06:23:03 AM

The humanities faculty at most institutions are fighting the wrong fight entirely and will lose in most of the foreseeable scenarios because a liberal arts education is not the end all, be all of tertiary education.

Most of the world does not require general education distribution requirements at the tertiary level.  Elementary and secondary education is where citizens learn enough literature, history, basic philosophy, basic math, and basic science to get by.  Tertiary education is about specializing in one field to become proficient.  Oxford undergrad degrees can be three years because they don't have the extra year of general education.  Anyone want to assert that an Oxford degree is not really a university education? 


I have a question. Is the US emphasis on "liberal arts" and "general education" mainly a consequence of having such a huge number of tiny institutions, where specialization would require any specific place to offer only a handful of majors? It seems to me that in most countries the average (and certainly median) institution size would be much bigger, so that there is the scale to offer several majors at the size that is needed to be financially viable.

Like Ruralguy, I don't think the emphasis on the liberal arts is driven by the tiny institutions existing and I agree that having all those tiny institutions is a historical artifact.  Those tiny institutions aren't old by European standards (most date to the early-to-mid-19th century) and have changed missions repeatedly as times changed.  We have so many in part because we're so much larger (geographically) than Europe.  We also have so many because in the mid-19th century the goals for a "college education" were easier to meet once one had a few rooms and some books.  The current emphasis on the liberal arts is a jobs preservation mechanism by the humanities professors that started in the mid-twentieth century as the changes to the higher ed landscape were starting to affect their employment.

The tiny institutions arose because of perceived local needs and most were more like finishing schools or ministry preparation than what most people would think of a modern college.  The Morrill Acts in the mid-19th century started the land-grant universities (https://www.nap.edu/read/4980/chapter/2) that were meeting the needs of an agricultural-based population, which have evolved to be branch campuses of the state system.  I'm not sure if any of the flagship universities started as land-grant institutions, but anything that is still called State A&M started that way.  Along the way, those agricultural colleges changed mission as the US shifted away from being a majority farmers to being the current single digit percent of the population being farmers.

Normal schools also arose in the 19th century as the way to get professional elementary and secondary schoolteachers instead of just letting a good student from the next town over become the local schoolteacher when a new one was needed.  By the mid-twentieth century, most of those normal schools had evolved into being branch campuses of the state system as well.

During this same time, apprenticeships gradually decreased and then fell off abruptly as what jobs were available changed with modern technology and formal education became more available to "everyone".

Some of the emphasis on the liberal arts as being the primary purpose of a university education in the US came about in the mid-twentieth century as the consolidations completed, the apprenticeships dropped dramatically, and the rise of the junior college/community college/vo-tech institute started.  The argument made by humanities faculty was that tertiary education has never been "mere vocational training" (conveniently overlooking all the history in the US indicating that it used to be for ministry or demonstrating membership in the elite class, followed by a rise by A&M and normal schools) and therefore whatever they teach is clearly the most important consideration.  It was a jobs saving move in the mid-twentieth century that worked to postpone some transitions as the men using the GI Bill believed the hype.

As the world moved on (even Harvard eliminated the requirement to be proficient in Latin and Greek just to enroll) and technical human knowledge exploded, new majors were made to meet demand.  A broader section of the population went to college and many of those folks were not bookish in the traditional sense.  Instead, they were like the original attendees at the land-grant institutions and normal schools looking to learn something they couldn't get elsewhere and would be qualified for a different job than their family/community network could get them. 

As travel became easier and now the internet allows for nearly instantaneous communication, the need for all those far-flung institutions serving a decreasing population is greatly reduced.  The changes in technology as it affects modern business also means that the baseline cost of having a modern institution in compliance with all the rules, regulations, and expected norms has gone up significantly, even if the material being taught would be familiar to students in the 1950s classrooms.

The immediate reason why tiny places go under after circling the drain for decades is being unable to pay the bills due to lack of enrollment and high cost of just existing.  However, the push to double down on the liberal arts education as the valuable education is a combination of genuine feeling by the humanities faculty that what they know is hugely important for everyone, fear for personal faculty job loss because faculty members who could have gotten good other jobs and been happy in those jobs tend to not still be faculty, and a genuine acknowledgement that very targeted training like a cosmetology certificate is not useful for the next job while probably not getting a job in a small town that is already full up on cosmetologists.

Yes, engineering and nursing programs are hugely expensive to administer.  However, many students like psychology, business, and criminal justice just fine and those are much easier to find faculty willing to teach.  Students then may choose the convenience, larger selection of courses, and cheaper price of fully online through a state university over the very-expensive-for-what-you-get, in-person, tiny, local, private college.  After all, if the goal is education, not all the fabulous experiences on a residential campus, then the good online education at a quarter of the tuition and no additional living costs (often $10k for a dorm room and meal plan) wins.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 10, 2020, 07:32:02 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 10, 2020, 05:52:27 AM

[. . . ]

Likewise, aspiring students pick up that cybersecurity is how many people are making good money in a "new" field.  Those aspiring students also buy into the idea that a college degree in the field will get them that fancy job with the FBI, CIA, or a big corporation.  Those aspiring students don't know about the people who have been already programming and being system admins since they were in middle school who have those cybersecurity jobs and will be their direct competition.  Those aspiring students don't know about the university programs where the big players have partnered to offer co-ops, internships, and project classes so the new graduates already have a couple years of directly relevant experience and that those programs are older than the entering students in this "new" area.  Again, St. Rose may be trying hard, but they are very unlikely to be as good an option as a cybersecurity program that grew out of good other programs in technology/IT/CS and criminal justice.

Used to be every fourth criminal justice major I ran into would say something like "I'm going to be a profiler who catches serial killers" because of the popularity of TV shows like X-Files and CSI. And I'd have to bite my lip to prevent myself from saying "No you're not. There is only one forensic psychologist on the state government's payroll and you definitely don't have the ability to get into, much less complete, a psychology PhD program. If you did, you wouldn't be enrolled here."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 10, 2020, 07:34:40 AM
Quote from: Hibush on December 10, 2020, 02:45:01 AM
Quote from: spork on December 10, 2020, 01:55:19 AM
Quote from: selecter on December 09, 2020, 07:15:22 PM
St. Rose has been in this space before. Not sure if this means things are getting better or worse:
https://www.strose.edu/2020/12/08/saint-rose-to-discontinue-academic-programs-as-part-of-proactive-plan-to-address-financial-challenges/

That's more than one-fifth of its tenure-track positions eliminated.

The list of closed programs starts, familiarly, with studio art and music perfomance. Those are expensive programs to run.

Evidently there has been a real crash in the number of students majoring in studio and performance arts.  Alma Mater has long had a strong music program.  That makes sense, as Alma Mater is a denominationally-affiliated school that supplies church music majors as well as ministers.  But even with that niche to fill, the number of musicians they're training has gone way down.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 10, 2020, 07:41:47 AM
Quote from: spork on December 10, 2020, 07:32:02 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 10, 2020, 05:52:27 AM

[. . . ]

Likewise, aspiring students pick up that cybersecurity is how many people are making good money in a "new" field.  Those aspiring students also buy into the idea that a college degree in the field will get them that fancy job with the FBI, CIA, or a big corporation.  Those aspiring students don't know about the people who have been already programming and being system admins since they were in middle school who have those cybersecurity jobs and will be their direct competition.  Those aspiring students don't know about the university programs where the big players have partnered to offer co-ops, internships, and project classes so the new graduates already have a couple years of directly relevant experience and that those programs are older than the entering students in this "new" area.  Again, St. Rose may be trying hard, but they are very unlikely to be as good an option as a cybersecurity program that grew out of good other programs in technology/IT/CS and criminal justice.

Used to be every fourth criminal justice major I ran into would say something like "I'm going to be a profiler who catches serial killers" because of the popularity of TV shows like X-Files and CSI. And I'd have to bite my lip to prevent myself from saying "No you're not. There is only one forensic psychologist on the state government's payroll and you definitely don't have the ability to get into, much less complete, a psychology PhD program. If you did, you wouldn't be enrolled here."

I don't know that the market for cyber security majors is as constricted as all that.  My brother, who blew off college when we were youths, then became a career Army NCO, went back to school after he retired from the military and is now in the cyber security department of a nuclear facility (I figure it's best not to ask him too many questions about what he does there...).  He doesn't have a "fancy job" as a department head or anything, but he's making a good living.  As cybersecurity becomes more and more important, I would think that it would be a good field for majors.

That said, if St. Rose doesn't already have a strong IT program they no doubt will indeed be hard-pressed to create a credible cybersecurity major program.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: PScientist on December 10, 2020, 08:08:32 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 10, 2020, 07:41:47 AM
I don't know that the market for cyber security majors is as constricted as all that. 

I agree.  I was conscripted to be the faculty sponsor for our institution's cybersecurity competition team/club, so I interact with that world a little bit.  At this point, there is a good job in the cybersecurity field for anyone with a computing-related degree, enough motivation to complete an industry certification like CompTIA Security+, and a clean enough background to hold a top secret/SCI clearance.

However, an institution that is trying to start a new program will probably run into trouble hiring qualified cybersecurity faculty at a salary that they can afford.  That is the other side of the hot job market.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on December 10, 2020, 08:53:22 AM
This has been our school's problem: We try to chase after "hot" areas, and then only can finally hire people in the area when either:

1. The area is no longer hot.

2. We are able to hire a misanthrope or psycho who couldn't get or hold
a highly compensated job.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 10, 2020, 09:45:17 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on December 10, 2020, 08:53:22 AM
This has been our school's problem: We try to chase after "hot" areas, and then only can finally hire people in the area when either:

1. The area is no longer hot.

2. We are able to hire a misanthrope or psycho who couldn't get or hold
a highly compensated job.

That's the thing about hot fields.  You have to be a little bit ahead of the curve to ride it to success.  A purely reactive strategy of looking for already-popular bandwagons to jump on is likely always to be a step or two behind.

The flip side of THAT is that trying to get ahead of the curve could lead to committing lots of resources to a projected Next Big Thing that never actually gets that big.  We've seen some schools on this thread that bet the farm on trying to get ahead of the curve, and we've seen some that obviously tried to jump on too late.  Hard to say sometimes how much of that's bad leadership, and how much is bad luck.  It really does seem to take a certain amount of luck to get it just right.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 10, 2020, 11:06:02 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 10, 2020, 09:45:17 AM

That's the thing about hot fields.  You have to be a little bit ahead of the curve to ride it to success.  A purely reactive strategy of looking for already-popular bandwagons to jump on is likely always to be a step or two behind.

The flip side of THAT is that trying to get ahead of the curve could lead to committing lots of resources to a projected Next Big Thing that never actually gets that big.  We've seen some schools on this thread that bet the farm on trying to get ahead of the curve, and we've seen some that obviously tried to jump on too late.  Hard to say sometimes how much of that's bad leadership, and how much is bad luck.  It really does seem to take a certain amount of luck to get it just right.

That's why individual departments and faculties have to be pro-active about this. They need to be looking at ways to leverage their existing strengths in anticipation of new things. (Stagnant departments or faculties are doomed........)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on December 10, 2020, 11:34:45 AM
I went to a talk recently about majors and their relationship to employment. The popular imagination has it that Computer Science is the hot major that will land anyone a job, but in fact it's in the top 15 majors in which graduates fail to find suitable jobs in their field.  (Source: Business Insider, Sept. 9. 2019.) The field with the lowest rate of unemployment is actually religion. (Source: US Census data.) So maybe all those students facing unemployment ought to go back to those little colleges training ministers.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 10, 2020, 12:01:11 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 10, 2020, 11:06:02 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 10, 2020, 09:45:17 AM

That's the thing about hot fields.  You have to be a little bit ahead of the curve to ride it to success.  A purely reactive strategy of looking for already-popular bandwagons to jump on is likely always to be a step or two behind.

The flip side of THAT is that trying to get ahead of the curve could lead to committing lots of resources to a projected Next Big Thing that never actually gets that big.  We've seen some schools on this thread that bet the farm on trying to get ahead of the curve, and we've seen some that obviously tried to jump on too late.  Hard to say sometimes how much of that's bad leadership, and how much is bad luck.  It really does seem to take a certain amount of luck to get it just right.

That's why individual departments and faculties have to be pro-active about this. They need to be looking at ways to leverage their existing strengths in anticipation of new things. (Stagnant departments or faculties are doomed........)

Right.  It should be what institutions do all along in a changing world, so that they can experiment without having to bet the whole farm in desperation.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 10, 2020, 12:23:28 PM
Quote from: apl68 on December 10, 2020, 12:01:11 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 10, 2020, 11:06:02 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 10, 2020, 09:45:17 AM

That's the thing about hot fields.  You have to be a little bit ahead of the curve to ride it to success.  A purely reactive strategy of looking for already-popular bandwagons to jump on is likely always to be a step or two behind.

The flip side of THAT is that trying to get ahead of the curve could lead to committing lots of resources to a projected Next Big Thing that never actually gets that big.  We've seen some schools on this thread that bet the farm on trying to get ahead of the curve, and we've seen some that obviously tried to jump on too late.  Hard to say sometimes how much of that's bad leadership, and how much is bad luck.  It really does seem to take a certain amount of luck to get it just right.

That's why individual departments and faculties have to be pro-active about this. They need to be looking at ways to leverage their existing strengths in anticipation of new things. (Stagnant departments or faculties are doomed........)

Right.  It should be what institutions do all along in a changing world, so that they can experiment without having to bet the whole farm in desperation.

The parable of the talents, IRL.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on December 10, 2020, 12:30:45 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 10, 2020, 11:34:45 AM
The popular imagination has it that Computer Science is the hot major that will land anyone a job, but in fact it's in the top 15 majors in which graduates fail to find suitable jobs in their field.  (Source: Business Insider, Sept. 9. 2019.)
This statement omits important information from the article: Median income: $99,000.
So, Computer Science graduates have much higher opportunity costs when working outside of their field than, say, Composition and Rhetoric (Median income: $37,800).
https://www.businessinsider.com/college-degrees-with-the-highest-unemployment-rates (https://www.businessinsider.com/college-degrees-with-the-highest-unemployment-rates)

Quote from: apl68 on December 10, 2020, 09:45:17 AM
That's the thing about hot fields.  You have to be a little bit ahead of the curve to ride it to success.  A purely reactive strategy of looking for already-popular bandwagons to jump on is likely always to be a step or two behind.
Large schools already have most fields covered, so they do not need much strategy to benefit from this cycle.
I have seen department's incoming class going from 125 to 250 over 5 years without any additional faculty. Given that it now dropped to 25, actively chasing the wave with new hires would have been really bad decision long-term.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 10, 2020, 02:13:56 PM
Quote from: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on December 10, 2020, 12:30:45 PM
Quote from: apl68 on December 10, 2020, 09:45:17 AM
That's the thing about hot fields.  You have to be a little bit ahead of the curve to ride it to success.  A purely reactive strategy of looking for already-popular bandwagons to jump on is likely always to be a step or two behind.
Large schools already have most fields covered, so they do not need much strategy to benefit from this cycle.
I have seen department's incoming class going from 125 to 250 over 5 years without any additional faculty. Given that it now dropped to 25, actively chasing the wave with new hires would have been really bad decision long-term.

That is where we hire NTT faculty on a five-year term. If the fad (enrolment bump) is temporary, so is the faculty position. In a hot field, the salary may be really high but it is less risky than going TT even at a much lower salary. If the trend lasts and you need to go TT, then you already have a good person.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 10, 2020, 03:53:36 PM
Why attend a foundering College of Saint Rose when one can attend University at Albany, which is three miles away and probably costs less money?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 11, 2020, 05:47:45 AM
Quote from: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on December 10, 2020, 12:30:45 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 10, 2020, 11:34:45 AM
The popular imagination has it that Computer Science is the hot major that will land anyone a job, but in fact it's in the top 15 majors in which graduates fail to find suitable jobs in their field.  (Source: Business Insider, Sept. 9. 2019.)
This statement omits important information from the article: Median income: $99,000.
So, Computer Science graduates have much higher opportunity costs when working outside of their field than, say, Composition and Rhetoric (Median income: $37,800).
https://www.businessinsider.com/college-degrees-with-the-highest-unemployment-rates (https://www.businessinsider.com/college-degrees-with-the-highest-unemployment-rates)

Majoring in CS to get a high paying job is another instance of people choosing wrong based on limited information.  Having good programming skills using the modern workflow tools and demonstrated experience working in the relevant kinds of teams generally gets one a good job.  Having the similar sort of experience in any one or two IT fields along with the certificates for which the employer paid generally gets one a good job.

Having a CS degree without the internships, coops, or other direct experience with companies who can hire you or mentors who can work their network for you is just like majoring in a humanities field without having the social capital--the success stories paint a rosier picture than the realities of how little that degree mattered in getting to the next step.  The CS degree itself is much less useful than the experience on how things actually work that includes the solid coursework on why certain things are done that way. 

A CS degree is not a programming degree nor is it an IT degree; those are different fields.  We do a ton of computer work here including high-performance computing and all the programs to go on those computers, but we actually hire very few CS folks.  Instead, we hire many mathematicians, physicists, engineers, chemists, and others who can program and use those programming skills to solve the interesting problems.  We then hire a handful of BS-level CS folks to manage the software development process for the teams of mathematicians, scientists, and engineers.  We hire a handful of graduate-level CS folks to develop new architectures and the tools to leverage those new architectures. 

One of the big red flags for our hiring process is a new CS degree holder who hasn't done substantial internship/coop/research/job experience outside of the classroom.  Taking the standard design courses that involve some design/programming projects is not at all good preparation for working as a programmer, let alone working as one of our few CS experts managing the project team.

The humanities folks who say, it doesn't matter what your major is, are mostly right in this instance, but they didn't follow up with, and that's why you have to get relevant experience before you graduate because employers hire on experience instead of book learning.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on December 11, 2020, 09:01:03 AM
Yeah, I do plenty of coding in various languages and with other tools past and present such as Wolfram, IDL, etc.. Only ever took one CS class and it was
in a language I never once coded in after that class. So, I can see why for certain employers (government science facilities, etc.) , a formal CS degree isn't
as important as knowing certain tools and being willing and able to learn new ones. Knowing some IT/operating system and hardware stuff probably wouldn't hurt either.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on December 11, 2020, 09:56:25 AM
We have a friend who has had a long and very successful career in IT/tech. He actually dropped out of college to pursue this career, as he quickly realized that it was all about your hands on skills, and that many of his CS courses were woefully out of date compared to what we has doing in his spare time. At one point he was in charge of the eBay Beanie Babies server (we had a costume party when he got that promotion!), and now manages the B2B platform for a major global investment firm.

No one has EVER asked him about his lack of a formal degree. So I entirely agree it's all about skills. It's also about connections in the field as he would change jobs about every 6 months during the height of the late 90's tech boom. Often being pulled along as colleagues got poached.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: whynotbc on December 11, 2020, 02:23:00 PM
Any insight into why cut chemistry as a major? It seems they have one large science department (biology, chemistry, physics, etc. in one department)? They still have a biology major that requires four semesters of chemistry. Pre-health tracks require 1-5 chemistry courses. They also have a biochemistry major that requires 7 chemistry courses in addition to biochemistry. They have a forensics programs that requires at minimum 6 chemistry courses and has a track that requires 3 more semesters of chemistry. They have only 4 tenure line chemistry faculty in that large department. One is organic, so teaches organic chemistry for pre-health, biology, biochemistry, and forensic students. They have a biochemist who likely teaches biochemistry for pre-health, biology, and biochemistry as well as some of the forensic students. Analytical chemist for the analytical courses for forensic students as well as forensic courses. The last is a physical chemist who also teaches inorganic and general chemistry. Biochemistry major at Saint Rose requires two semesters of Physical as does the chemistry track in forensics. Inorganic class cut (no lab) likely but the physical chemist teaching general chemistry and physical chemistry would likely be a full load. The savings then would be fewer adjuncts for general chemistry and focus on   retention in general chemistry to strengthen pre-health, biology, biochemistry, and forensics?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 11, 2020, 03:21:34 PM
Quote from: whynotbc on December 11, 2020, 02:23:00 PM
Any insight into why cut chemistry as a major? It seems they have one large science department (biology, chemistry, physics, etc. in one department)? They still have a biology major that requires four semesters of chemistry. Pre-health tracks require 1-5 chemistry courses. They also have a biochemistry major that requires 7 chemistry courses in addition to biochemistry. They have a forensics programs that requires at minimum 6 chemistry courses and has a track that requires 3 more semesters of chemistry. They have only 4 tenure line chemistry faculty in that large department. One is organic, so teaches organic chemistry for pre-health, biology, biochemistry, and forensic students. They have a biochemist who likely teaches biochemistry for pre-health, biology, and biochemistry as well as some of the forensic students. Analytical chemist for the analytical courses for forensic students as well as forensic courses. The last is a physical chemist who also teaches inorganic and general chemistry. Biochemistry major at Saint Rose requires two semesters of Physical as does the chemistry track in forensics. Inorganic class cut (no lab) likely but the physical chemist teaching general chemistry and physical chemistry would likely be a full load. The savings then would be fewer adjuncts for general chemistry and focus on   retention in general chemistry to strengthen pre-health, biology, biochemistry, and forensics?

IPEDS shows 0 to 3 bachelor's degrees in chemistry awarded per year going back to 2010.

Not sure what you mean by "pre-health," but the courses needed for other programs probably can be taught by adjuncts. Nursing majors have to take a "chemistry for health" course. It looks like the Saint Rose BSN relies on ADN students coming from some other institution, so it's possible that many of the students are picking it up elsewhere and transferring the credits. Biology majors take two semesters of general chemistry and two semesters of organic chemistry, plus labs. This is pretty standard for biology majors in the USA, and most likely anyone capable of eventually obtaining an MD or a DVM is not attending Saint Rose.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: whynotbc on December 11, 2020, 04:53:10 PM
Quote from: spork on December 11, 2020, 03:21:34 PM
IPEDS shows 0 to 3 bachelor's degrees in chemistry awarded per year going back to 2010.

Not sure what you mean by "pre-health," but the courses needed for other programs probably can be taught by adjuncts. Nursing majors have to take a "chemistry for health" course. It looks like the Saint Rose BSN relies on ADN students coming from some other institution, so it's possible that many of the students are picking it up elsewhere and transferring the credits. Biology majors take two semesters of general chemistry and two semesters of organic chemistry, plus labs. This is pretty standard for biology majors in the USA, and most likely anyone capable of eventually obtaining an MD or a DVM is not attending Saint Rose.


But why keep the biochemistry and forensic majors then? They are also small majors. Given their requirements at the College of Saint Rose, to support those two majors the instiution basically offers a chemistry major except for an inorganic chemistry course that doesn't have a lab (3 credits) and a synthesis course (2 credits).  I am guessing as is they don't offer those two courses every year but alternate.  The latter two are required for the chemical track in forensics.

They may not have students who apply to med/vet/dentals schools but they are at least keeping up the appearance of a pre-med/vet/dental program to attract those with dreams (or parents with dreams).

Makes one wonder if they are also planning on altering their biology, biochemistry, and forensics majors. More and more undergrad biology majors are dropping organic especially for evolution & ecology tracks. Biochemistry major could shift to more overlap with biology and same with forensics by dropping the chemistry track. Without that not clear they are gaining much.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 11, 2020, 05:17:35 PM
When I was doing institutional research related to chemistry programs, I picked up some interesting information that may be relevant here.

1) Almost no one decides to major in chemistry fresh out of high school.  Those who do generally are getting excellent advice on programs and would not pick some place like St.Rose.

2) However, many people who know almost nothing about the realities of being a scientist will seize on a flashy major like biochemistry or forensic science.  Those folks will enroll somewhere like St. Rose and then change majors to something more aligned with their interests like psychology or business.  Thus, while there's almost no graduates every year, keeping the majors as a recruiting tool is a very good idea.

3) The minimum requirement to be an ACS-accredited program is 4 full-time faculty members. Super Dinky was able to officially offer some upper-division courses by partnering with a regional coalition such that multiple institutions sent all their students to one course that then had enough students to run the course.  In some of the off years, Super Dinky would call up our closest neighbor chemistry program and establish how to combine to offer one joint course for the 8-10 total students of whom only 1-3 students were SD students.  Thus, while Super Dinky technically had a chemistry major, most of the courses were not taught at Super Dinky by Super Dinky full-time faculty.

Combined with the recruiting information, I can absolutely believe that cutting the chemistry major makes sense while keeping biochemistry and forensic science is more about recruitment.  Some fancy footwork might be required if a cohort of students got to the upper-division chemistry courses, but one can look at patterns and project.

One "fun" part of being hired to teach chemistry and then doing the institutional research was being able to see just how many years in a row large declared cohorts in chemistry and pre-med somehow evaporated before getting to the organic chemistry course.  The nursing cohort always filled the special nursing chemistry and microbiology.  The premed/chemistry cohorts that had to get through general chemistry before enrolling in organic chemistry never made the official 10 enrollment.  We ran Organic I as the second year alternate with 6 a couple times.  When someone got to Organic II, generally it was independent study or a special arrangement with another institution.  I never did get to teach the Physical Chemistry I course I was told would be part of my load.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: whynotbc on December 12, 2020, 10:23:53 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 11, 2020, 05:17:35 PM
When I was doing institutional research related to chemistry programs, I picked up some interesting information that may be relevant here.

1) Almost no one decides to major in chemistry fresh out of high school.  Those who do generally are getting excellent advice on programs and would not pick some place like St.Rose.

2) However, many people who know almost nothing about the realities of being a scientist will seize on a flashy major like biochemistry or forensic science.  Those folks will enroll somewhere like St. Rose and then change majors to something more aligned with their interests like psychology or business.  Thus, while there's almost no graduates every year, keeping the majors as a recruiting tool is a very good idea.

3) The minimum requirement to be an ACS-accredited program is 4 full-time faculty members. Super Dinky was able to officially offer some upper-division courses by partnering with a regional coalition such that multiple institutions sent all their students to one course that then had enough students to run the course.  In some of the off years, Super Dinky would call up our closest neighbor chemistry program and establish how to combine to offer one joint course for the 8-10 total students of whom only 1-3 students were SD students.  Thus, while Super Dinky technically had a chemistry major, most of the courses were not taught at Super Dinky by Super Dinky full-time faculty.

Combined with the recruiting information, I can absolutely believe that cutting the chemistry major makes sense while keeping biochemistry and forensic science is more about recruitment.  Some fancy footwork might be required if a cohort of students got to the upper-division chemistry courses, but one can look at patterns and project.

One "fun" part of being hired to teach chemistry and then doing the institutional research was being able to see just how many years in a row large declared cohorts in chemistry and pre-med somehow evaporated before getting to the organic chemistry course.  The nursing cohort always filled the special nursing chemistry and microbiology.  The premed/chemistry cohorts that had to get through general chemistry before enrolling in organic chemistry never made the official 10 enrollment.  We ran Organic I as the second year alternate with 6 a couple times.  When someone got to Organic II, generally it was independent study or a special arrangement with another institution.  I never did get to teach the Physical Chemistry I course I was told would be part of my load.

I don't think Saint Rose is ACS certified as is. Maybe they were trying and have given up. They appear to get 25-30 student through Organic II each year given biology, biochemistry, and forensics majors all need to complete it along with the couple of chemistry majors each year.

Still for them to fully realize their savings they will need to change their biochemistry and forensics programs. They seem to have structured them to prop up a chemistry major. Biochemistry majors at many places only take one semester of physical chemistry not two. Without a chemistry major, the one semester can be more focused, a biophysical chemistry course offered every other year. Replace the second semester of physical chemistry in the biochemistry major with an elective from the offerings for the biology and forensics majors. For the forsensics have the two semesters of biochemistry and the biophysical chemistry course be for the chemistry track.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 12, 2020, 11:54:04 AM
For a long time departments at many of these tiny colleges have been able, because of a lack of sound management, to engage in wishful thinking and fill tenure-track faculty positions in areas for which there little to no student demand. Now these institutions have to bear the financial consequences of that behavior.

As I alluded to upthread, according to College Scorecard, average price of attendance at SUNY-Albany is $17,000. For College of Saint Rose, it's $22,000. SUNY-Albany is listed as having 52 chemistry bachelor's degree graduates.  For Saint Rose, College Scorecard says "Data Not Available," so probably the number is in the range of zero as I mentioned earlier.

It doesn't matter if a program is certified or how its curriculum is organized if there aren't any students in it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 12, 2020, 02:45:46 PM
Quote from: spork on December 12, 2020, 11:54:04 AM
It doesn't matter if a program is certified or how its curriculum is organized if there aren't any students in it.

If a program is trying to maintain accreditation, then those are resources required, regardless of how many students.

I agree that forcing everyone to take Organic II and PChem II seems like a bad plan if the goal is to be competitive for the students who do their research and know what's typical.  Ensuring that the one section is full every time is a problem if the goal is retaining students who know they have other choices; the US is certainly not short on biology programs.

Not being accredited is a big negative for students who know what's important in a program.  Thus, cutting a chemistry major that isn't accredited still seems like a good plan, especially if the other programs will be modified to be more in line with peer institutions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on December 12, 2020, 05:45:29 PM
The University of Evansville (https://www.evansville.edu/realignment/) announced two days ago that it's going to be doing some weeding:


Faculty will have to provide an initial response by Dec. 15 (so: four days after the announcement was made), and will have a total of 30 days to review the plan, which the university wants to finalize in early 2021.


Note that no admin will be cut, nor will the school's D1 sports program. (They have 2500 students, by the way.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on December 12, 2020, 06:11:00 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 12, 2020, 05:45:29 PM
The University of Evansville (https://www.evansville.edu/realignment/) announced two days ago that it's going to be doing some weeding:


  • Music, Philosophy & Religion, and Electrical Engineering & Computer Science will have their departments eliminated entirely.
  • Seventeen (!) majors will be eliminated: Cognitive Science, Computer Engineering, Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Ethics and Social Change, Music, Music Education, Music Performance, Music Therapy, Philosophy, Religion, Software Engineering, Art History, History, Physics, Political Science, and Spanish.
  • A pile of tenured and TT faculty across these departments will have their positions eliminated.

Faculty will have to provide an initial response by Dec. 15 (so: four days after the announcement was made), and will have a total of 30 days to review the plan, which the university wants to finalize in early 2021.


Note that no admin will be cut, nor will the school's D1 sports program. (They have 2500 students, by the way.)

Presumably, the reduction of 4 colleges and schools into 3 will result in some admin and stuff reductions? You've gotta figure that one of the Deans will be gone.

I'm with you on the sports.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 12, 2020, 06:38:21 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on December 12, 2020, 06:11:00 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 12, 2020, 05:45:29 PM
The University of Evansville (https://www.evansville.edu/realignment/) announced two days ago that it's going to be doing some weeding:


  • Music, Philosophy & Religion, and Electrical Engineering & Computer Science will have their departments eliminated entirely.
  • Seventeen (!) majors will be eliminated: Cognitive Science, Computer Engineering, Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Ethics and Social Change, Music, Music Education, Music Performance, Music Therapy, Philosophy, Religion, Software Engineering, Art History, History, Physics, Political Science, and Spanish.
  • A pile of tenured and TT faculty across these departments will have their positions eliminated.

Faculty will have to provide an initial response by Dec. 15 (so: four days after the announcement was made), and will have a total of 30 days to review the plan, which the university wants to finalize in early 2021.


Note that no admin will be cut, nor will the school's D1 sports program. (They have 2500 students, by the way.)

Presumably, the reduction of 4 colleges and schools into 3 will result in some admin and stuff reductions? You've gotta figure that one of the Deans will be gone.

I'm with you on the sports.

They are merging the engineering and business colleges (deleting computer science). How do those complement one another. Perhaps they will develop a strong financial engineering program? They already have an odd combination in a college of education and health science.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on December 12, 2020, 06:48:27 PM
For some reason I know a lot of people who attended the University of Evansville, and they are in great consternation at all of this. And the fact that nothing about sports has been cut has not escaped their attention. Having now read a lot more details about the cuts, it looks to me as if the university is in the direst of dire straits, and I would not be surprised if this were the last stage before the end.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on December 12, 2020, 07:11:57 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on December 12, 2020, 06:11:00 PM

Presumably, the reduction of 4 colleges and schools into 3 will result in some admin and stuff reductions?

Shrug. It's not in the plan, anyway.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 13, 2020, 02:07:40 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 12, 2020, 06:48:27 PM
For some reason I know a lot of people who attended the University of Evansville, and they are in great consternation at all of this. And the fact that nothing about sports has been cut has not escaped their attention. Having now read a lot more details about the cuts, it looks to me as if the university is in the direst of dire straits, and I would not be surprised if this were the last stage before the end.

According to its Form 990s, Evansville received $44 million in contributions in FY 2013, which allowed net revenue of ~ $35 million on total expenses of $104 million. In other words, without the contributions, it would have been ~ $9 million short. Despite that $35 million windfall for FY 2013, it was in deficit in FYs 2015 and 2016. To me that's a sign that Evansville is not financially sustainable.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on December 13, 2020, 04:11:49 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 12, 2020, 07:11:57 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on December 12, 2020, 06:11:00 PM

Presumably, the reduction of 4 colleges and schools into 3 will result in some admin and stuff reductions?

Shrug. It's not in the plan, anyway.

Ok, but why else would you bother? As a branding exercise? If it isn't a cost saver, what else might motivate such a move?

I have reasons for asking that apply not just to this case. If it's not appropriate for this thread, I'll start another.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 13, 2020, 06:34:38 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on December 13, 2020, 04:11:49 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 12, 2020, 07:11:57 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on December 12, 2020, 06:11:00 PM

Presumably, the reduction of 4 colleges and schools into 3 will result in some admin and stuff reductions?

Shrug. It's not in the plan, anyway.

Ok, but why else would you bother? As a branding exercise? If it isn't a cost saver, what else might motivate such a move?

The pragmatic reason for a reorg is putting new people into positions of decision-making and implementation.

Change is hard.  Change is impossible when the people tasked with implementing the changes undermine all the necessary actions, even if only by dragging their feet and waiting out the current "fad".  You can't usually just ditch deans/chairs/program directors by stating they are holding up progress.  You can, though, eliminate all the current positions, redistribute the duties, and then put new people into the new positions that have similar responsibilities.

By putting new people in charge who are handpicked for their eagerness to make the necessary changes and do something different, the institution has a shot at the changes occurring fast enough to make a difference.  A plan that no one is working to implement is a useless plan.  A plan that has several champions shepherding it every day to make progress has a shot at success.

Something weird has happened to eliminate EE and computer engineering because those are nationally very popular majors, but they are expensive to run well and might have problems getting new faculty to a small college.  However, I'm surprised that University of Evansville has any engineering programs at its size because of the expense to stay current that requires substantial scale and the desire of most engineering professors to do consulting/research, not just teaching.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 13, 2020, 06:54:57 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 12, 2020, 06:48:27 PM
For some reason I know a lot of people who attended the University of Evansville, and they are in great consternation at all of this. And the fact that nothing about sports has been cut has not escaped their attention. Having now read a lot more details about the cuts, it looks to me as if the university is in the direst of dire straits, and I would not be surprised if this were the last stage before the end.

The timeline of 18 months notice to affected faculty doesn't indicate direst of dire straits.

The programs being chosen do seem to be a realignment of needs based on demographics projected for the next five to ten years.

Participating in athletics at UE is a draw.  250 student-athletes on a student population of 2000 is a noticeable fraction (https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-evansville/student-life/sports/).  Head coaches of male teams only making $55k (ibid) and head coaches of female teams only making $37k (ibid) is a pretty good deal.

College scorecard shows very few recent graduates in the programs proposed for cuts. 

Physics has 4 graduates while mechanical engineering is number 3 in annual graduates at 29.  ME needs some physics classes, but not all the ones necessary for a physics degree.  One reason that EE and computer engineering may be on the chopping block is the dramatic drop in foreign nationals coming to the US for undergrad STEM degrees.  If UE had been relying on international students to prop up the program and were experiencing the decline even before COVID, then cutting those programs as unworkable would make sense.

Music has 4 recent graduates,
philosophy has 4 recent graduates,
cognitive science (expensive to run if done correctly) has 6 recent graduates,
English and literature has 4 recent graduates

Those four programs combined have fewer graduates than any one of the top five programs.  Doubling down on the top ten programs to have them grow is a smarter strategy than clinging to the past by diluting resources.

The direst of dire financial straits is cutting today for spring or cutting now for fall.  Announcing cuts that will take effect in two years is called strategic planning.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on December 13, 2020, 07:20:10 AM
We've been struggling to get even one solid CS person who justifies his or herself doing only CS by getting, say, at least half a dozen majors every year for a few years, then double it. They've done worse than half that, and at one time we had 3 CS people...they all had to teach mostly service math to justify themselves . Some of them are among our least solid teachers, can't keep up with research, and aren't the type to be too into service either. Some are getting 10s of thousands more than much more valuable colleagues at same rank.

So...engineering at a small school...maybe you can limit to a couple of fields that overlap with engineering...but full on ABET program......no (even if you could fit in an ABET program considering the likely prohibitive size of liberal arts core at such a school).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on December 13, 2020, 08:34:32 AM
U of Evansville didn't have much competition in the area for years, but that is not the case anymore. The University of Southern Indiana has grown significantly, and has an ABET accredited Engineering program. Across the river in Owensboro KY there is a CC, a small private Catholic college and a regional campus of Western Kentucky University as well.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 13, 2020, 10:56:35 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on December 13, 2020, 07:20:10 AM
So...engineering at a small school...maybe you can limit to a couple of fields that overlap with engineering...but full on ABET program......no (even if you could fit in an ABET program considering the likely prohibitive size of liberal arts core at such a school).

New Mexico Tech has multiple full on ABET-accredited programs with smaller undergrad enrollment than St. Rose.  I can think of several other small engineering schools (under 2500 undergrad enrollment) that do it and do it well.  However, those places don't pretend to be liberal arts places that happen to have some engineering.  They are STEM institutions that may have some other majors, but also have significant industrial/government ties to sponsor the programs and keep the technology current.

Those other small STEM institutions also have modest graduate programs and well-established mechanisms to ensure faculty can be research active.  Those institutes are not at all like a S(mall)LACs in terms of faculty expectations and residential life on campus.  Those institutes tend to excel in teaching, but the vibe on campus is usually much more about small group problem sets (first and second year) and then living in the project space to get the design work done (third and fourth year) while having summers away for internships/research experiences.  The professors aid in that vibe by guiding research and design projects.  The types of non-academic service that are common at places like Super Dinky are not common at these places.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on December 13, 2020, 12:38:54 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 13, 2020, 10:56:35 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on December 13, 2020, 07:20:10 AM
So...engineering at a small school...maybe you can limit to a couple of fields that overlap with engineering...but full on ABET program......no (even if you could fit in an ABET program considering the likely prohibitive size of liberal arts core at such a school).

New Mexico Tech has multiple full on ABET-accredited programs with smaller undergrad enrollment than St. Rose.  I can think of several other small engineering schools (under 2500 undergrad enrollment) that do it and do it well.  However, those places don't pretend to be liberal arts places that happen to have some engineering.  They are STEM institutions that may have some other majors, but also have significant industrial/government ties to sponsor the programs and keep the technology current.

Those other small STEM institutions also have modest graduate programs and well-established mechanisms to ensure faculty can be research active.  Those institutes are not at all like a S(mall)LACs in terms of faculty expectations and residential life on campus.  Those institutes tend to excel in teaching, but the vibe on campus is usually much more about small group problem sets (first and second year) and then living in the project space to get the design work done (third and fourth year) while having summers away for internships/research experiences.  The professors aid in that vibe by guiding research and design projects.  The types of non-academic service that are common at places like Super Dinky are not common at these places.

This.

My place is smaller, but has multiple ABET programs. But we're not a liberal arts school, and while there was muttering about us being reclassified as a Comprehensive, we are really still a Technical College.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 13, 2020, 05:56:02 PM
One thing hurting many small colleges being competitive for the students who get good advice is those colleges haven't changed to provide the undergraduate research experiences and/or coops/internships/sponsored projects that are an integral part of most undergrad educations that result in good jobs.  The S(elective) LACs have research and internship opportunities that provide the expected non-classroom experiences, even when those internships aren't directly in the field.

Not having the accreditation/certification when that's common is bad.

Worse is still delivering a 1970s education in fields that have changed dramatically in the past 40 years.  The American Physical Society has put in place resources for BS aspirants (https://www.aps.org/careers/).  The American Chemical Society has similar resources for undergrads (https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/education/students/college.html).  At no point is the advice: Go to a tiny program with almost no professionalization activities, a non-existent alumni network in the field, and rely on your degree alone to get a good job right out of college.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on December 13, 2020, 06:36:13 PM
Yeah.  Many SLAC's just don't have the faculty, infrastructure, or student numbers within STEM majors to support the "standard" undergraduate research experiences found at larger and more STEM-balanced institutions.

But that's part of why they're called SLAC's, isn't it? Small Liberal Arts College.

S(elective)LACS. Heh. I'm going to have to remember that one.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on December 13, 2020, 07:20:13 PM
Well. We're small and rural, but fortunately not too far from some national facilities that have enjoyed working with our grads. That is, we do have something of a network that punches above its weight.

Also, we do have one physical science major, related to engineering, that is very design and project based. We modeled it after ABET programs, but in the end , just couldn't squeeze in the credits due to our large core.

I'm not saying we don't have some big issues...enrollment being the biggest, but our program isn't as bad as you might think, and our grads do tend to get into decent grad schools or decent jobs (some join military doing related work).

What we have and what people want, in the end, just may not be scalable for a typical SLAC with enough funds to chug, but not enough to ensure a strong confident future.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 14, 2020, 05:11:32 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on December 13, 2020, 07:20:13 PM
I'm not saying we don't have some big issues...enrollment being the biggest, but our program isn't as bad as you might think, and our grads do tend to get into decent grad schools or decent jobs (some join military doing related work).

A small physics program is not the same as a bad physics program, especially if students will be joining a good professional network.  That's why students need to be doing their research on the individual programs instead of buying the idea that any college degree is a good one in a field where they know no professionals.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 14, 2020, 05:19:45 AM
Quote from: Aster on December 13, 2020, 06:36:13 PM
Yeah.  Many SLAC's just don't have the faculty, infrastructure, or student numbers within STEM majors to support the "standard" undergraduate research experiences found at larger and more STEM-balanced institutions.

But that's part of why they're called SLAC's, isn't it? Small Liberal Arts College.

S(elective)LACS. Heh. I'm going to have to remember that one.

Math, physics, chemistry, and indeed most physical and life sciences are liberal arts fields.  Engineering is not a liberal art.  Nursing, social work, and education are not liberal arts fields.

Program size doesn't automatically mean that one isn't providing the necessary experiences to succeed in the field.

However, an institution at which Liberal Arts really means humanities isn't providing a liberal arts education and a good many of the tiny, rural, originally religiously affiliated colleges aren't providing a Liberal Arts education, no matter how loudly they insist they are.

A S(elective) LAC like Grinnell (under 2000 undergrads with a 24% acceptance rate and a 87% graduation rate) is somewhere that one would get an excellent liberal arts education.

The Super Dinkies of the US who think that one math course at the college algebra level and one lab science course that may not require any math above arithmetic makes for a liberal arts education is sorely mistaken.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 14, 2020, 06:31:00 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on December 13, 2020, 07:20:13 PM
Well. We're small and rural, but fortunately not too far from some national facilities that have enjoyed working with our grads. That is, we do have something of a network that punches above its weight.

Also, we do have one physical science major, related to engineering, that is very design and project based. We modeled it after ABET programs, but in the end , just couldn't squeeze in the credits due to our large core.


These points fit with my experience. First, small places can't be good at lots of things, so having a small number of quality programs is more feasible. Second, it's pretty apparent that this program was carefully developed, rather than created as a simple copy of something available elsewhere.
These niche programs require a lot of buy-in from faculty and administration. Anyone just wanting to not have to change how they've been doing things for years while jumping on a current trendy bandwagon isn't likely to succeed.


Quote
I'm not saying we don't have some big issues...enrollment being the biggest, but our program isn't as bad as you might think, and our grads do tend to get into decent grad schools or decent jobs (some join military doing related work).

And companies that have hired one of these grads may hire more as they see the quality.  This helps to make up for the lower profile of a smaller institution.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on December 14, 2020, 11:13:50 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 14, 2020, 05:19:45 AM
Math, physics, chemistry, and indeed most physical and life sciences are liberal arts fields.
Uh hmm. That's contrary news at all four universities I've worked at. I'm going to have a hard time convincing any of our faculty to actually swallow that. They'll stare at me like I'm an idiot. What is the source of this, a historical piece off of a wikipedia page?

Oh wait, nevermind, I found it. Yeah, if one stops reading after the first historical paragraph and doesn't cross-index further (e.g. "liberal arts college"), yeah... someone could technically make an argument. What a delightful historical documentary this article is. "Disciplines of the mediaeval quadrivium", that's some groovy stuff.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on December 14, 2020, 01:39:23 PM
I guess it depends on how you use the term. At liberal arts colleges, we tend to use the  term "liberal arts" to apply to all of the traditional  natural and social science disciplines of the last 100+ years as well as Humanities. Many universities would call this division of their school something like "College of Arts and Sciences."  Engineering would tend not to fall into either of those, though some liberal arts colleges have indeed started such programs. I would agree that if they want to do this well, they probably have to split off the Liberal Arts from Engineering (or Business or Nursing).

By the way, some LAC's only offer BA's.  Others, for various reasons, offer both BA and BS, though often the requirements are identical (other than one's field of study).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 14, 2020, 01:45:10 PM
Quote from: Aster on December 14, 2020, 11:13:50 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 14, 2020, 05:19:45 AM
Math, physics, chemistry, and indeed most physical and life sciences are liberal arts fields.
Uh hmm. That's contrary news at all four universities I've worked at. I'm going to have a hard time convincing any of our faculty to actually swallow that. They'll stare at me like I'm an idiot. What is the source of this, a historical piece off of a wikipedia page?

Oh wait, nevermind, I found it. Yeah, if one stops reading after the first historical paragraph and doesn't cross-index further (e.g. "liberal arts college"), yeah... someone could technically make an argument. What a delightful historical documentary this article is. "Disciplines of the mediaeval quadrivium", that's some groovy stuff.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education

The wikipedia article on the medieval university (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_university) lists 21 extant universities that presumably taught this curriculum at some point during the 11th through 14th centuries. It fails to mention how many experienced dire financial straits when the curriculum fell out of fashion with the Renaissance and closed. Nor whether the ones that survived did so by making their curriculum contemporary.

The Renaissance, Age of Reason, and Age of Enlightenment are today regarded as more supportive of the kind of scholarship that we pursue today, than the Dark Ages during which the quadrivium represented science education in the liberal arts curriculum.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on December 14, 2020, 02:09:00 PM
The Dark Ages are the period from around 400 to around 650, so called because there is very little evidence, written or archaeological, for what happened during that period. That period is also known as the Late Antique period. The Middle Ages are not synonymous with the Dark Ages. Those who want to know more may be interested in Seb Falk's new book The Light Ages, which seeks to explode many of the stereotypes around this. https://www.sebfalk.com/the-light-ages
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 14, 2020, 02:10:21 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 14, 2020, 02:09:00 PM
The Dark Ages are the period from around 400 to around 650, so called because there is very little evidence, written or archaeological, for what happened during that period. That period is also known as the Late Antique period. The Middle Ages are not synonymous with the Dark Ages. Those who want to know more may be interested in Seb Falk's new book The Light Ages, which seeks to explode many of the stereotypes around this. https://www.sebfalk.com/the-light-ages

Whoops, I got over excited there at the end.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: fourhats on December 14, 2020, 02:33:40 PM
Polly is correct. The liberal arts refers to all subjects that are not professional or pre-professional. So yes, all sciences, humanities, social sciences. But not business, etc. I've taught many SLAC students who are at "liberal arts" colleges and majoring in the sciences. I think what throws people is the word "arts." But American colleges in the old days (i.e. my days) expected students to study "liberally" throughout the fields to be well-rounded, which is why we have broader undergraduate requirements than, say, UK universities, where students study in just one area for three years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on December 14, 2020, 03:14:28 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 14, 2020, 02:09:00 PM
The Dark Ages are the period from around 400 to around 650, so called because there is very little evidence, written or archaeological, for what happened during that period. That period is also known as the Late Antique period. The Middle Ages are not synonymous with the Dark Ages. Those who want to know more may be interested in Seb Falk's new book The Light Ages, which seeks to explode many of the stereotypes around this. https://www.sebfalk.com/the-light-ages

I already have Faulk's new book. I'm excited to read it.
Of course, we long knew that there was the Islamic Golden Age, which largely retained and protected the scholarship of the ancient Greeks, which meant that whatever was happening in England, France, Germany and Italy, that period of time was not culturally checked out completely.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on December 14, 2020, 05:28:27 PM
fourhats is right about the current US usage of the term 'liberal arts', which is certainly in accord with how dear alma mater, the finest college in the world, uses it.   Indeed, places like this, and even fifteenth-rate knock-offs like Amherst, generally overtly refuse to teach subjects like engineering, nursing, business, etc., calling these not properly part of the 'liberal arts'.

Is this term currently in use in Britain or elsewhere in the anglophone world?  And what, if any, translations of this concept, in phrase and/or deed, would be in use in non-anglophone countries, if any?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on December 14, 2020, 05:38:22 PM


The College of Saint Rose, University of Evansville and Marquette University are seeing massive academic cuts. Officials point to ongoing demographic trends. Faculty grieve and fight back.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/14/college-saint-rose-u-evansville-and-marquette-see-severe-cuts-proposed
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 15, 2020, 04:31:31 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 14, 2020, 05:28:27 PM

Is this term currently in use in Britain or elsewhere in the anglophone world?  And what, if any, translations of this concept, in phrase and/or deed, would be in use in non-anglophone countries, if any?

It gets used a little in Canada; mostly a spillover from the US. (And mostly by places that aren't strong in STEM, as kind of a cover.) But, since we don't have the proliferation of tiny places OR private institutions, there's not the same cultural conception.
(We also don't have the "general education" thing.)

"Arts" typically means "humanities", as opposed to "Science", "Engineering", etc.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 15, 2020, 05:10:00 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 15, 2020, 04:31:31 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 14, 2020, 05:28:27 PM

Is this term currently in use in Britain or elsewhere in the anglophone world?  And what, if any, translations of this concept, in phrase and/or deed, would be in use in non-anglophone countries, if any?

It gets used a little in Canada; mostly a spillover from the US. (And mostly by places that aren't strong in STEM, as kind of a cover.) But, since we don't have the proliferation of tiny places OR private institutions, there's not the same cultural conception.
(We also don't have the "general education" thing.)

"Arts" typically means "humanities", as opposed to "Science", "Engineering", etc.

Quote from: TreadingLife on December 14, 2020, 05:38:22 PM

The College of Saint Rose, University of Evansville and Marquette University are seeing massive academic cuts. Officials point to ongoing demographic trends. Faculty grieve and fight back.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/14/college-saint-rose-u-evansville-and-marquette-see-severe-cuts-proposed

The quote at the end from the student is illustrative -- she defines Saint Rose as reflective of the world at large, when it's not. The same can be said by a lot of faculty and administrators at U.S. higher ed institutions, who for decades have stubbornly refused to make reality-based decisions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on December 15, 2020, 05:33:49 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 14, 2020, 02:09:00 PM
The Dark Ages are the period from around 400 to around 650, so called because there is very little evidence, written or archaeological, for what happened during that period. That period is also known as the Late Antique period. The Middle Ages are not synonymous with the Dark Ages. Those who want to know more may be interested in Seb Falk's new book The Light Ages, which seeks to explode many of the stereotypes around this. https://www.sebfalk.com/the-light-ages

Agreed, and, yum! Thanks for the reference!

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 15, 2020, 07:28:53 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on December 14, 2020, 05:38:22 PM


The College of Saint Rose, University of Evansville and Marquette University are seeing massive academic cuts. Officials point to ongoing demographic trends. Faculty grieve and fight back.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/14/college-saint-rose-u-evansville-and-marquette-see-severe-cuts-proposed

They note that Saint Rose has already cut $8 million in administrative expenses.  That means that they've likely already eliminated administrative fat, and probably some administrative muscle as well.

The faculty members quoted in the article--unlike the student that spork mentions above--aren't trying to defend themselves through bluster about the importance of the liberal arts.  One is quoted as admitting that the demographics are just against her major.  Another criticizes his university's cuts on what sound like plausible technical grounds--cuts may be necessary, but these may not be smart cuts.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: whynotbc on December 15, 2020, 08:16:16 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on December 14, 2020, 05:38:22 PM


The College of Saint Rose, University of Evansville and Marquette University are seeing massive academic cuts. Officials point to ongoing demographic trends. Faculty grieve and fight back.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/14/college-saint-rose-u-evansville-and-marquette-see-severe-cuts-proposed
"Saint Rose is terminating majors in chemistry, biology and math, though those departments will not lose any faculty positions."

So as polly mentioned, refocussing resources on supporting a core they can recruit on.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on December 15, 2020, 08:58:14 AM
It's sad when the majors that require talent, preparation, tenacity, and work, are the least popular degree programs & more subject to elimination due to low enrollment, especially when the fluff programs are thriving with a lot of students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 15, 2020, 05:10:15 PM
Quote from: lightning on December 15, 2020, 08:58:14 AM
It's sad when the majors that require talent, preparation, tenacity, and work, are the least popular degree programs & more subject to elimination due to low enrollment, especially when the fluff programs are thriving with a lot of students.

The problem all around is the hard majors are generally less chosen, especially at the low end of the prestige chain where the students aren't motivated or prepared.

That's why we keep hearing that the US has a STEM problem.  It's not all sciences; it's the ones that require being proficient in math and then the science that relies on the math and then usually another layer.

Humans generally don't pick hard if they can pick easy.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on December 15, 2020, 05:25:29 PM
Quote from: mamselle on December 15, 2020, 05:33:49 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 14, 2020, 02:09:00 PM
The Dark Ages are the period from around 400 to around 650, so called because there is very little evidence, written or archaeological, for what happened during that period. That period is also known as the Late Antique period. The Middle Ages are not synonymous with the Dark Ages. Those who want to know more may be interested in Seb Falk's new book The Light Ages, which seeks to explode many of the stereotypes around this. https://www.sebfalk.com/the-light-ages

Agreed, and, yum! Thanks for the reference!


M.

Thanks for the reference! Checked out of library to read over break.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on December 15, 2020, 05:31:52 PM
QuoteThe College of Saint Rose, University of Evansville and Marquette University are seeing massive academic cuts. Officials point to ongoing demographic trends. Faculty grieve and fight back.

Faculty are fighting back against demographic trends?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 16, 2020, 05:22:40 AM
Quote from: dismalist on December 15, 2020, 05:31:52 PM
QuoteThe College of Saint Rose, University of Evansville and Marquette University are seeing massive academic cuts. Officials point to ongoing demographic trends. Faculty grieve and fight back.

Faculty are fighting back against demographic trends?

Nothing quite identifies the "ivory tower" like the refusal to accept what is glaringly obvious to the other 99% of the population.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 16, 2020, 05:47:43 AM
Quote from: dismalist on December 15, 2020, 05:31:52 PM
QuoteThe College of Saint Rose, University of Evansville and Marquette University are seeing massive academic cuts. Officials point to ongoing demographic trends. Faculty grieve and fight back.

Faculty are fighting back against demographic trends?

Yes, but they aren't doing it using the data that might support their case.  Instead, they have doubled down on keeping their current jobs doing their current things.

https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/learning-innovation/misuse-demographics-justification-faculty-and-staff-cuts is not nearly as right as the author wants to be because the author doesn't go into sufficient detail.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/15/what-do-new-projections-high-school-graduates-mean-colleges-and-universities has much more detail on what the changing demographics are with nods towards what those changing demographics mean.

One detail that is missing from some discussions is the current problem with which aspiring students are likely to be so close to the edge that they were derailed with COVID and may not get back to higher ed as a full-time student ever: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/10/analysis-low-income-community-college-students-most-likely-report-canceling-college

Some of the changing demographics have already happened with the minority of students being the traditional students defined as full-time enrollment on a single campus with no dependents and living in the dorms or similar non-familial housing.  The "traditional students" have been under 30% of the national college enrollment for years; elite institutions still have mostly traditional students while one factor sinking the Super Dinkies of the US is failing to transition to a commuter campus in terms of budgeting.  I can't dig it up before work this morning, but CHE ran an article within the past four years about how students who are parents outnumber the 18-22 year olds who live in dorms as full-time students.  Ignoring the needs of student parents because they aren't even on the radar is a big mistake for many institutions.

The majority of students change institutions during their undergrad years.  A near majority of students take more than four years to graduate from time of first enrollment.  Those combined facts mean, except for the elite institutions that don't have to accept transfer students, assuming that students enroll right out of high school and progress in a four-year cohort according to the suggestion curriculum plans is ignoring the reality of the students enrolled.  Again, many Super Dinkies aren't transfer friendly because of their general education requirements that are designed as a super special four-year experience instead of an interchangeable set of humanities, social sciences, and physical/life sciences to check the boxes.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 16, 2020, 06:31:32 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 16, 2020, 05:22:40 AM
Quote from: dismalist on December 15, 2020, 05:31:52 PM
QuoteThe College of Saint Rose, University of Evansville and Marquette University are seeing massive academic cuts. Officials point to ongoing demographic trends. Faculty grieve and fight back.

Faculty are fighting back against demographic trends?

Nothing quite identifies the "ivory tower" like the refusal to accept what is glaringly obvious to the other 99% of the population.

Again, we don't see that in the article.  One faculty member is specifically quoted as admitting that they can't fight demographic trends.  Another is quoted as trying to marshal data against the cuts, not just sputtering about how those majors are too important to cut.

Not everybody who disagrees with you on some things is in a hopeless state of denial.  Sometimes they're actually worth listening to
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 16, 2020, 06:37:14 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 16, 2020, 05:47:43 AM

https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/learning-innovation/misuse-demographics-justification-faculty-and-staff-cuts is not nearly as right as the author wants to be because the author doesn't go into sufficient detail.

No, the author doesn't make a very convincing case there regarding how to get enough people studying at college level despite demographic decline to make hard choices about cuts unnecessary.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 16, 2020, 06:49:37 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 16, 2020, 06:37:14 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 16, 2020, 05:47:43 AM

https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/learning-innovation/misuse-demographics-justification-faculty-and-staff-cuts is not nearly as right as the author wants to be because the author doesn't go into sufficient detail.

No, the author doesn't make a very convincing case there regarding how to get enough people studying at college level despite demographic decline to make hard choices about cuts unnecessary.

What's sad is that such a case could be made (not by me in the next five minutes before I go to work), but:

A) the case doesn't result in saving the jobs that many faculty members would want to be saved
B) the case redirects a lot of resources to the K-12 realm because remediating at the college level is a bad use of the relevant resources
C) the case involves actually changing how many faculty do things on a day-to-day basis instead of merely not cutting based on projected student interest

Overall, the case relies on understanding qualitative and quantitative data on how higher ed institutions with different missions run, selecting one to three institutional goals that could be achieved with the resources available or that could become available, and then prioritizing activities that have a good shot at achieving the goals.

But step 0 is being able to understand the data available and being able to make step 0.1 be acquiring more data to answer specific, targeted questions necessary to make decisions.

Faculty members who just want to teach their subject and be left alone otherwise will never buy into what needs to be done to evaluate whether the goals from which they personally benefit are either achievable or even the correct goals for the institution at large.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 16, 2020, 07:13:10 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 16, 2020, 06:31:32 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 16, 2020, 05:22:40 AM
Quote from: dismalist on December 15, 2020, 05:31:52 PM
QuoteThe College of Saint Rose, University of Evansville and Marquette University are seeing massive academic cuts. Officials point to ongoing demographic trends. Faculty grieve and fight back.

Faculty are fighting back against demographic trends?

Nothing quite identifies the "ivory tower" like the refusal to accept what is glaringly obvious to the other 99% of the population.

Again, we don't see that in the article.  One faculty member is specifically quoted as admitting that they can't fight demographic trends.  Another is quoted as trying to marshal data against the cuts, not just sputtering about how those majors are too important to cut.

Not everybody who disagrees with you on some things is in a hopeless state of denial.  Sometimes they're actually worth listening to

Here's an example:
Quote
At Marquette, faculty have pushed back against the plan at many points, on logistical and emotional levels. The American Association of University Professors chapter submitted a resolution to the Academic Senate last week to halt the process, saying it has not been approached in accordance with the Faculty Handbook. Faculty members have accused the administration of poorly managing finances in the past and misinterpreting the data and scope of Grawe's book. Open letters have been sent from faculty members in STEM departments, the Committee on Research, the Faculty Council and the Jesuit community. (The university is affiliated with the Society of Jesus.)

"At its fundamental level Marquette cannot simply figure out how much money it has and then decide where to spend it. Rather, it must articulate robust values rooted in the history of the Society of Jesus and in Marquette's own founding documents," wrote Gregory O'Meara, rector of the Marquette Jesuits. "We understand that some financial realignment is necessary, but our budgetary constraints cannot dilute what a Jesuit education demands."


The entire tone is about opposing the cuts in every way possible (kind of like not accepting the results of an election......).

But, in fact, figuring out how much money there is (or can be) as a prelude to how to spend it is facing reality. Yes, some spending choices wll actually affect how much comes in, but at the end of the day those two have to equal. Trying to decide what "needs" to be supported without taking into account what resources are actually available is disastrous.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 16, 2020, 07:44:31 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 16, 2020, 06:49:37 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 16, 2020, 06:37:14 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 16, 2020, 05:47:43 AM

https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/learning-innovation/misuse-demographics-justification-faculty-and-staff-cuts is not nearly as right as the author wants to be because the author doesn't go into sufficient detail.

No, the author doesn't make a very convincing case there regarding how to get enough people studying at college level despite demographic decline to make hard choices about cuts unnecessary.

What's sad is that such a case could be made (not by me in the next five minutes before I go to work), but:

A) the case doesn't result in saving the jobs that many faculty members would want to be saved
B) the case redirects a lot of resources to the K-12 realm because remediating at the college level is a bad use of the relevant resources
C) the case involves actually changing how many faculty do things on a day-to-day basis instead of merely not cutting based on projected student interest


When you've got some time, I'd be interested in seeing how you would make the case.

Also, what would be your best advice for small liberal arts schools that (unlike Super Dinky) might still have a chance to survive?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 16, 2020, 09:19:31 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 16, 2020, 07:44:31 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 16, 2020, 06:49:37 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 16, 2020, 06:37:14 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 16, 2020, 05:47:43 AM

https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/learning-innovation/misuse-demographics-justification-faculty-and-staff-cuts is not nearly as right as the author wants to be because the author doesn't go into sufficient detail.

No, the author doesn't make a very convincing case there regarding how to get enough people studying at college level despite demographic decline to make hard choices about cuts unnecessary.

What's sad is that such a case could be made (not by me in the next five minutes before I go to work), but:

A) the case doesn't result in saving the jobs that many faculty members would want to be saved
B) the case redirects a lot of resources to the K-12 realm because remediating at the college level is a bad use of the relevant resources
C) the case involves actually changing how many faculty do things on a day-to-day basis instead of merely not cutting based on projected student interest


When you've got some time, I'd be interested in seeing how you would make the case.

Also, what would be your best advice for small liberal arts schools that (unlike Super Dinky) might still have a chance to survive?

This is getting into the subject of another thread, but to start:

Dispense with the checkbox one-and-done gen ed curriculum. If people at a small college without a billion dollar endowment think some kind of humanities education is important, offer a couple of minors/concentrations so students get a bit of expertise in a subject area. Require a minor/concentration outside of the major (not "business majors can minor in marketing"). Reduce required credit hours for majors to a reasonable level (e.g., 60).

Allow top performing first-time, full-time students to get a bachelor's degree in 2-3 years instead of 4. Yes, this cuts into auxiliary revenue in the short term but it can improve the academic reputation of the college, which is the only strategy that has a hope of keeping it financially viable over the long term.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on December 16, 2020, 12:00:01 PM
A handful at most of the  S(mall) LACs graduate in 2-3 years anyway due mostly to DE credit, but also AP. It probably wouldn't hurt too much to slowly increment that level. It could help because you'd be increasing retention even though your are reducing the total number of average years a student stays. But in the end, if it increases total tuition yield, then its a better model.

Spork, I do think it *could* work!  The main problem is everyone is competing for those same students.

We do have a number of folks who have advocated core depth over core breadth, so yeah, a minor and a couple of core courses you take for a year, rather than no required minor (and no restrictions on field) and a huge, broad core of 1 semester courses in ever area of the college (jobs bill!)

 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on December 16, 2020, 06:48:07 PM
Another item to consider changing is calendar and course scheduling. Small colleges that want to survive need to look at their calendars and schedules based on what would support students completing degrees in a shorter period and/or completing degrees while holding full-time jobs that support a family.

Posting a typical course rotation so students can plan ahead would help, too. My department has our course rotation on website, so students and advisors can see that Basketweaving 2-A is always in fall while 2-B is always in spring. The students may not use, but advisors do.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on December 16, 2020, 07:27:18 PM
We have finally gotten rotation stability! Only took 20 years!

As far as students with families and such....no go for most  rural SLACs. There just isn't enough interest.

Maybe a handful of non degree earning courses could be designed for locals, but even that would be hard.

But COVID showed that calendar flexibility can be very helpful, so perhaps there is a permanent lesson there.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 17, 2020, 05:12:49 PM
UVM lecturers get axed:

https://vtdigger.org/2020/12/16/uvm-begins-layoffs-of-liberal-arts-faculty/ (https://vtdigger.org/2020/12/16/uvm-begins-layoffs-of-liberal-arts-faculty/).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on December 18, 2020, 07:34:27 AM
From the press release:

The Board of Trustees met last week to make a decision regarding whether Notre Dame de Namur University will continue to operate beyond spring 2021.

The Board unanimously endorsed a new vision for NDNU to transform the university to a primarily graduate and online university, potentially with undergraduate degree completion programs, that would operate beyond spring 2021.

https://www.ndnu.edu/future-of-ndnu/?fbclid=IwAR3n5W4ikT0W2KNZoNdiXKTf3TA8CJO9tjAmE5QUI-JYBq2hcpe8fwYjmjM
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 18, 2020, 07:41:49 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on December 18, 2020, 07:34:27 AM
From the press release:

The Board of Trustees met last week to make a decision regarding whether Notre Dame de Namur University will continue to operate beyond spring 2021.

The Board unanimously endorsed a new vision for NDNU to transform the university to a primarily graduate and online university, potentially with undergraduate degree completion programs, that would operate beyond spring 2021.

https://www.ndnu.edu/future-of-ndnu/?fbclid=IwAR3n5W4ikT0W2KNZoNdiXKTf3TA8CJO9tjAmE5QUI-JYBq2hcpe8fwYjmjM

NDNU faces the issue of an extremely high CoL area (discussed on a separate thread) without being able to offer the kind of salary and housing subsidy that Stanford and Berkeley need to manage.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 18, 2020, 07:55:54 AM
Quote from: spork on December 17, 2020, 05:12:49 PM
UVM lecturers get axed:

https://vtdigger.org/2020/12/16/uvm-begins-layoffs-of-liberal-arts-faculty/ (https://vtdigger.org/2020/12/16/uvm-begins-layoffs-of-liberal-arts-faculty/).

Since I just came from an adjunct discussion thread, one thing that jumped out at me was

Quote
Williamson's departure raises questions about the university's commitment to Indigenous studies.

In his 2019 apology for UVM's role in the Vermont Eugenics Survey, which in the 1920s and 30s targeted the Abenaki people, as well as other people of color, former president Tom Sullivan promised "educational initiatives" as one form of redress.

Yet, the university has a limited curriculum when it comes to Indigenous history and culture. Williamson, who taught a range of English courses including Native American Literature, was "one of the very few who [teaches] any North American Indigenous literature and culture across the college," Gennari said.


This guy being dismissed doesn't "raise questions about the university's commitment".  There was no commitment, but only the pro-forma bland apology for historical bad actions when the spotlight was on the university.  If there were any commitment, then the apology would have included the formation of the task force to stand up a relevant program staffed by tenured/tenure-track professors hired as part of a national search.  If the university had really meant to do better, then they would have stood up one of these programs in the 1960s/1970s when that was a thing in US academia.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on December 18, 2020, 07:59:59 AM
More bad news

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/12/18/judson-college-will-close-if-it-doesnt-receive-gifts
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 18, 2020, 08:05:15 AM
I was looking for something else when I came across Leaders consider future of tiny liberal arts colleges (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/11/11/leaders-consider-future-tiny-liberal-arts-colleges) from 2016.  This article has aged very poorly since most of the explicitly named institutions have closed or merged.

For those who aren't great at math, 2016 was a mere four years ago and before Covid.

<I'm still planning to do a new thread with the case for how some smaller institutions could survive, but that may have to wait until my winter break starts next Friday>
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 18, 2020, 08:23:38 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on December 18, 2020, 07:59:59 AM
More bad news

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/12/18/judson-college-will-close-if-it-doesnt-receive-gifts

The question that comes immediately to mind: why is this a two-weeks notice instead of having started banging the drum last March and writing a letter like Jonathan Gibralter did for Wells College?

https://baptistnews.com/article/judson-college-needs-1-5-million-or-will-be-forced-to-close-in-january/#.X9zV2C1h2i4 has more detail including that Judson College only enrolls about 300 students.  One bad thing about being a tiny college is that also means having a tiny alumna base from which to draw for donations.  300 students/4 cohorts = 75 students/graduating cohort.  75 graduates * 30 years = 2250 alumna.  Unless many of those alumna are somehow very wealthy (why would they have chosen to go to a tiny, women's college instead of a good, small women's college?), that's a tiny pool from which to raise half a million dollars on short notice ($222 from everyone during a pandemic when money is tight for many people) and then they will have to raise another million dollars by May (total of almost a thousand dollars per alumna if everyone donates).

And that's not fixing the problem.  That's ensuring that the doors don't close this year. With a budget of $10M, being $1.5M short in a year is big!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 18, 2020, 08:26:05 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 18, 2020, 08:05:15 AM
I was looking for something else when I came across Leaders consider future of tiny liberal arts colleges (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/11/11/leaders-consider-future-tiny-liberal-arts-colleges) from 2016.  This article has aged very poorly since most of the explicitly named institutions have closed or merged.



From that article:

Quote
Taken on its own, a marketing plan might not be enough to help the tiny colleges overcome headwinds they face with students and finances. They simply do not have the benefits of scale that a larger institution would have, said Susan Resneck Pierce, former president of the University of Puget Sound and president of SRP Consulting.

"The problem for those small institutions is they all still need a registrar, they all still need an admissions staff," she said. "There are certain things you still need to have whether you are 800 or 8,000 or 50,000. To sustain themselves financially in this market has become more and more challenging."


Am I the only one that is stunned that the main problems with small institutions that are identified are administrative? The lack of program diversity, and pedagogical infrastructure like labs, etc. aren't even on the radar.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 18, 2020, 08:38:37 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on December 18, 2020, 07:59:59 AM
More bad news

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/12/18/judson-college-will-close-if-it-doesnt-receive-gifts

Judson College has been running deficits every year since 2010, except for 2017, when it had net revenue of $13,890. Anyone who throws money at this school is a moron.

As for

https://www.ndnu.edu/future-of-ndnu/message-from-president-carey-to-the-community/ (https://www.ndnu.edu/future-of-ndnu/message-from-president-carey-to-the-community/),

it's highly doubtful that the plan will end well, if it is actually implemented.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on December 18, 2020, 10:27:17 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on December 18, 2020, 07:59:59 AM
More bad news

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/12/18/judson-college-will-close-if-it-doesnt-receive-gifts

Starting a GoFundMe page is no way to run a college.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 18, 2020, 11:23:03 AM
Quote from: spork on December 18, 2020, 08:38:37 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on December 18, 2020, 07:59:59 AM
More bad news

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/12/18/judson-college-will-close-if-it-doesnt-receive-gifts

Judson College has been running deficits every year since 2010, except for 2017, when it had net revenue of $13,890. Anyone who throws money at this school is a moron.

As for

https://www.ndnu.edu/future-of-ndnu/message-from-president-carey-to-the-community/ (https://www.ndnu.edu/future-of-ndnu/message-from-president-carey-to-the-community/),

it's highly doubtful that the plan will end well, if it is actually implemented.

My thoughts as well--better to contribute to something that's not already clearly a lost cause.  As polly notes above, it's far too late to try a desperation move like this, and such a tiny school just isn't going to have a large enough constituency to provide the needed resources.

It's a shame.  The place is 180 years old!  Looks like kind of a neat little school.  But really, a women's college with under 300 students and no vast endowment?  It's a wonder it has lasted as long as it has.  You still have to feel for the alumnae, the people who will be losing their jobs, and the community that is losing what was no doubt considered something of a local gem.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 18, 2020, 11:37:05 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 18, 2020, 11:23:03 AM

It's a shame.  The place is 180 years old!  Looks like kind of a neat little school.  But really, a women's college with under 300 students and no vast endowment?  It's a wonder it has lasted as long as it has.  You still have to feel for the alumnae, the people who will be losing their jobs, and the community that is losing what was no doubt considered something of a local gem.

The economic effects may not be as big as the thought of a college closing suggests. Their revenue of $10 million is equivalent to four Panera shops. We are used to quick-service restaurants coming and going, they don't last 180 years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 18, 2020, 01:12:32 PM
Quote from: Hibush on December 18, 2020, 11:37:05 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 18, 2020, 11:23:03 AM

It's a shame.  The place is 180 years old!  Looks like kind of a neat little school.  But really, a women's college with under 300 students and no vast endowment?  It's a wonder it has lasted as long as it has.  You still have to feel for the alumnae, the people who will be losing their jobs, and the community that is losing what was no doubt considered something of a local gem.

The economic effects may not be as big as the thought of a college closing suggests. Their revenue of $10 million is equivalent to four Panera shops. We are used to quick-service restaurants coming and going, they don't last 180 years.

Marion, Alabama is even smaller than the town that I live in.  Ten million dollars' a year worth of business gone will probably be a pretty significant blow in that context.  Plus, it's a local landmark, and probably to some extent a cultural center.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 18, 2020, 01:53:18 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 18, 2020, 08:26:05 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 18, 2020, 08:05:15 AM
I was looking for something else when I came across Leaders consider future of tiny liberal arts colleges (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/11/11/leaders-consider-future-tiny-liberal-arts-colleges) from 2016.  This article has aged very poorly since most of the explicitly named institutions have closed or merged.



From that article:

Quote
Taken on its own, a marketing plan might not be enough to help the tiny colleges overcome headwinds they face with students and finances. They simply do not have the benefits of scale that a larger institution would have, said Susan Resneck Pierce, former president of the University of Puget Sound and president of SRP Consulting.

"The problem for those small institutions is they all still need a registrar, they all still need an admissions staff," she said. "There are certain things you still need to have whether you are 800 or 8,000 or 50,000. To sustain themselves financially in this market has become more and more challenging."


Am I the only one that is stunned that the main problems with small institutions that are identified are administrative? The lack of program diversity, and pedagogical infrastructure like labs, etc. aren't even on the radar.
If you're stunned, then you haven't been paying attention.  The academic costs at small places  really don't matter if the majority of the costs are the fixed costs of just being open.

One "fun" part of having a front row seat at Super Dinky during the accreditation visit was finding out that the majority of the costs were not direct instructional costs.  A competent enough registrar will insist on being paid what they are worth and will walk if they are underpaid to do an impossible task.  The handful of accountants in the business office likewise will command market rates including benefits and will walk as soon as the job becomes too hard for the money.  The people who are good at the kind of thinking and skills at using the database systems to fill out the regulatory paperwork likewise will walk as soon as the money is not worth the effort.

Oddly, the faculty will insist that they are important, but seldom walk even when things are bad because they can't get other jobs.  The less available comparable professional jobs (e.g., many humanities and social science fields), the more likely the faculty will be to stay and just keep wringing their hands, while the necessary and unglamorous paperpusher positions that do require a specific mindset and useful-outside-of-academia skills tend to turn over because those folks have the relevant critical thinking skills to see the writing on the wall.

Thus, the problem is seldom directly the academics; the first big hard problem of tiny schools is how to get enough revenue to just keep the lights on and have a functioning organization into which one can admit students and hire faculty.  Not having people who can do the paperwork so that students can use federal financial aid means not having a viable school in most cases, regardless of what the majors are or how great the faculty are.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 18, 2020, 02:24:03 PM
Guilford College board of trustees will pause the implementation of a budget reduction plan:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/12/18/guilford-board-pauses-budget-cuts (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/12/18/guilford-board-pauses-budget-cuts).

Guilford should have academically restructured a minimum of fifteen years ago. Now it is up against a wall.

Previous president quit before her contract was up and can ride out the rest of her career as a tenured English professor. Interim president was probably told to start putting Guilford on a financially sustainable path -- a temporary person who can take the blame for shutting down programs. Now she's being undercut by the board that hired her. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 18, 2020, 02:25:17 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 18, 2020, 01:53:18 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 18, 2020, 08:26:05 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 18, 2020, 08:05:15 AM
I was looking for something else when I came across Leaders consider future of tiny liberal arts colleges (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/11/11/leaders-consider-future-tiny-liberal-arts-colleges) from 2016.  This article has aged very poorly since most of the explicitly named institutions have closed or merged.



From that article:

Quote
Taken on its own, a marketing plan might not be enough to help the tiny colleges overcome headwinds they face with students and finances. They simply do not have the benefits of scale that a larger institution would have, said Susan Resneck Pierce, former president of the University of Puget Sound and president of SRP Consulting.

"The problem for those small institutions is they all still need a registrar, they all still need an admissions staff," she said. "There are certain things you still need to have whether you are 800 or 8,000 or 50,000. To sustain themselves financially in this market has become more and more challenging."


Am I the only one that is stunned that the main problems with small institutions that are identified are administrative? The lack of program diversity, and pedagogical infrastructure like labs, etc. aren't even on the radar.
If you're stunned, then you haven't been paying attention.  The academic costs at small places  really don't matter if the majority of the costs are the fixed costs of just being open.


Oh, I get that. What amazed me was that people advocating for small institutions,talking about how to market to prospective students and parents, don't see the limitations of what they can provide as being a significant problem. The fact they they offer "personalized instruction" and  a "campus community" are assumed to be vastly more relevant to recruitment than whatever students can actually study when they get there. The main problems of scale that they see have nothing to do with their academic offerings.


Quote
Thus, the problem is seldom directly the academics; the first big hard problem of tiny schools is how to get enough revenue to just keep the lights on and have a functioning organization into which one can admit students and hire faculty.  Not having people who can do the paperwork so that students can use federal financial aid means not having a viable school in most cases, regardless of what the majors are or how great the faculty are.

Again, it's the idea that in recruiting the academics are almost irrelevant that seems surreal. It's no wonder places with more money build climbing walls, swimming pools, etc. if the program offerings are seen as inconsequential. 

With many of these small places, it seems there'd be way less program choice than in their high schools. Why would students go to a place with less choice than they had in high school?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 18, 2020, 03:55:10 PM
Quote from: spork on December 18, 2020, 02:24:03 PM
Interim president was probably told to start putting Guilford on a financially sustainable path -- a temporary person who can take the blame for shutting down programs. Now she's being undercut by the board that hired her.

Trustees that melt once the blowback begins are terrible, but it is so easy to understand the dynamic. Word must get around to the prospective Chainsaw Al (http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2025898_2025900_2026107,00.html)'s of academe. Then the school is really toast. What do they do, have the board chair step in as interim?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 19, 2020, 07:01:10 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 18, 2020, 02:25:17 PM
With many of these small places, it seems there'd be way less program choice than in their high schools. Why would students go to a place with less choice than they had in high school?

For decades (more than a century in many cases), these tiny school served people for whom 500 students is bigger than their high school and may be bigger than their entire town.  I come from such a place where we were the regional high school and had people bused from all over to create a high school of about 350 students, almost none of whom would go to college.

I went to a college of about 1500 students in a town of 10k people and felt overwhelmed by the hugeness.  I was pretty happy once I got into my major classes of 4-6 (new major and we were the first cohort) because that was so much more like the education I was used to, not like the huge classes of 70+ for Calculus I.

I didn't really care about the low selection of classes in large part because I was used to the idea of one picks a track, follows the course enrollment on the track, and then graduates in a timely manner with the education one gets on that track.  My high school worked exactly like that: I was college bound, so I took the courses that the college bound folks took.  Since we were in rural Wisconsin, that track was set up to get us into UW-Madison with 4 years of English, 4 years of science, 4 years of math, 4 years of a foreign language (could choose from German or Spanish), 3 years of the required history/civics, and several HS graduation requirements like gym, health, consumer living (taxes, budgeting, basic economics).  The electives I took was band with an abbreviated lunch and orchestra instead of a study hall.

One problem for the tiny colleges is how few college-going-age students like me remain at this point and how much farther afield a tiny college must recruit to get those students.  Even the president of Super Dinky didn't want to believe that there were only a few hundred HS students in the fifty-mile radius that is typical for non-elite college attendance and those students were primarily in the demographic groups that don't go to college right out of HS.

Sure, academic offerings matter for the students who know why they are going to college.  That was much less important even twenty years ago when any college degree was good enough and most of the tiny rural institutions were serving the "elite" of the region and providing teachers who would go on to get master degrees in education along with their history/English/language/philosophy BA or pre-med, pre-law, or pre-dental.  The person who would get a college degree in something academic and then return home to work in the small family business or small town government is no longer the primary audience for this schools.  Those folks go to the branch campus and then stay in the "big" city or go to the state flagship and stay in the big city.  The small towns in many places are all but dead.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 21, 2020, 07:47:58 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 19, 2020, 07:01:10 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 18, 2020, 02:25:17 PM
With many of these small places, it seems there'd be way less program choice than in their high schools. Why would students go to a place with less choice than they had in high school?

For decades (more than a century in many cases), these tiny school served people for whom 500 students is bigger than their high school and may be bigger than their entire town.  I come from such a place where we were the regional high school and had people bused from all over to create a high school of about 350 students, almost none of whom would go to college.

I went to a college of about 1500 students in a town of 10k people and felt overwhelmed by the hugeness.  I was pretty happy once I got into my major classes of 4-6 (new major and we were the first cohort) because that was so much more like the education I was used to, not like the huge classes of 70+ for Calculus I.

I didn't really care about the low selection of classes in large part because I was used to the idea of one picks a track, follows the course enrollment on the track, and then graduates in a timely manner with the education one gets on that track.  My high school worked exactly like that: I was college bound, so I took the courses that the college bound folks took.  Since we were in rural Wisconsin, that track was set up to get us into UW-Madison with 4 years of English, 4 years of science, 4 years of math, 4 years of a foreign language (could choose from German or Spanish), 3 years of the required history/civics, and several HS graduation requirements like gym, health, consumer living (taxes, budgeting, basic economics).  The electives I took was band with an abbreviated lunch and orchestra instead of a study hall.

One problem for the tiny colleges is how few college-going-age students like me remain at this point and how much farther afield a tiny college must recruit to get those students.  Even the president of Super Dinky didn't want to believe that there were only a few hundred HS students in the fifty-mile radius that is typical for non-elite college attendance and those students were primarily in the demographic groups that don't go to college right out of HS.

Sure, academic offerings matter for the students who know why they are going to college.  That was much less important even twenty years ago when any college degree was good enough and most of the tiny rural institutions were serving the "elite" of the region and providing teachers who would go on to get master degrees in education along with their history/English/language/philosophy BA or pre-med, pre-law, or pre-dental.  The person who would get a college degree in something academic and then return home to work in the small family business or small town government is no longer the primary audience for this schools.  Those folks go to the branch campus and then stay in the "big" city or go to the state flagship and stay in the big city.  The small towns in many places are all but dead.

The demographics of polly's alma mater and its home town sound almost identical to mine.  Polly's high school sounds similar as well, except that at our 300-odd-student school Spanish was the only foreign language available.

The above is a pretty good overview of both the attractions and the contemporary challenges of a small rural college.  I think that polly's experience with Super Dinky sometimes leads her to sell other small colleges that are potentially still more viable than that short.  But she's all too correct that many of the little places don't stand much of a chance in today's environment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 21, 2020, 11:33:07 AM
Small colleges with a unique mission that can draw enrollment from the whole nation and have a great endowment or otherwise aren't primarily tuition driven have a good shot at survival.

Tiny colleges that are interchangeable and been relying mostly on locals who stay close to home with minimal career aspiration with practically no endowment and are already at over 50% tuition discount rates in a desperate attempt to get enough butts in the seats have almost no shot, especially if they double down on "the liberal arts are important" instead of addressing local employment needs.

It's not that size will doom every institution; it's that a fair number of smaller institutions have almost no resources beyond tuition as expenses go up fast and demographics shift.  Those smaller places are not competitive on price for the people who have options or know they want something else.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 22, 2020, 07:43:33 PM
UC Berkeley: https://www.kqed.org/news/11849485/were-fragile-uc-berkeley-officials-battle-budget-woes
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 22, 2020, 07:47:22 PM
Benjamin Franklin: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/12/02/metro/already-edge-pandemic-has-made-it-even-harder-small-colleges/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on December 22, 2020, 08:26:22 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 22, 2020, 07:43:33 PM
UC Berkeley: https://www.kqed.org/news/11849485/were-fragile-uc-berkeley-officials-battle-budget-woes

Thank you, Polly.

Some old, some new.
Lots of borrowed. Lots of blue.

I'd encourage everybody to read this one. Scary.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on December 22, 2020, 08:37:53 PM
Quote from: spork on September 21, 2020, 09:18:16 AM
Quote from: mamselle on September 21, 2020, 07:51:50 AM
Quote from: spork on September 21, 2020, 03:40:09 AM
Benjamin Franklin Institute of Technology in merger discussions with Wentworth Institute of Technology:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/20/metro/benjamin-frankin-institute-technology-wentworth-are-talking-merger-secret/ (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/20/metro/benjamin-frankin-institute-technology-wentworth-are-talking-merger-secret/).

Interesting. A friend works at BFIT. Hope they'll be OK.

M.

As usual with Boston-area colleges, the real estate deal in the mix is interesting. BFIT's plan to sell off its South End location to move to Nubian Square could be a cash windfall for Wentworth.

Yes, sorry to say, they've been having trouble for a bit.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 23, 2020, 06:35:42 AM
Quote from: mamselle on December 22, 2020, 08:37:53 PM
Quote from: spork on September 21, 2020, 09:18:16 AM
Quote from: mamselle on September 21, 2020, 07:51:50 AM
Quote from: spork on September 21, 2020, 03:40:09 AM
Benjamin Franklin Institute of Technology in merger discussions with Wentworth Institute of Technology:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/20/metro/benjamin-frankin-institute-technology-wentworth-are-talking-merger-secret/ (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/09/20/metro/benjamin-frankin-institute-technology-wentworth-are-talking-merger-secret/).

Interesting. A friend works at BFIT. Hope they'll be OK.

M.

As usual with Boston-area colleges, the real estate deal in the mix is interesting. BFIT's plan to sell off its South End location to move to Nubian Square could be a cash windfall for Wentworth.

Yes, sorry to say, they've been having trouble for a bit.

M.

That merger fell through per the link I posted yesterday.  The news isn't that they are in trouble; the news is that they aren't getting out of it and the accreditation clock is ticking quickly.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 23, 2020, 08:00:36 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on December 22, 2020, 08:26:22 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 22, 2020, 07:43:33 PM
UC Berkeley: https://www.kqed.org/news/11849485/were-fragile-uc-berkeley-officials-battle-budget-woes

Thank you, Polly.

Some old, some new.
Lots of borrowed. Lots of blue.

I'd encourage everybody to read this one. Scary.

Only 13% of their budget is from the state?  It's substantially higher than that at state schools in our predominately rural red state.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 23, 2020, 10:41:35 AM
For several years, the state flagships that are truly national gems have been in the news for what a small percentage of their budgets have come from the state.

Possibly useful information for those who missed it:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/05/public-higher-education-worse-spot-ever-heading-recession 

https://www.jkcf.org/research/state-university-no-more-out-of-state-enrollment-and-the-growing-exclusion-of-high-achieving-low-income-students-at-public-flagship-universities/

https://www.highereddive.com/news/are-we-seeing-the-dissolution-of-the-public-flagship-university/437869/

CU-Boulder is usually the poster child at under 10% of the budget from state appropriations: https://coloradosun.com/2019/02/25/colorado-universities-out-of-state-enrollment/

The smaller state branch campuses that get a substantial portion of their funding from state appropriations should be shaking in their boots at this point because cutting 20-50% of the budget as the state money runs out is much, much worse than having to make up 5 or 10% of the budget from the state appropriation cuts.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 28, 2020, 06:34:41 AM
Speaking of the smaller branch campuses, Indiana University of Pennsylvania is in the NYT today for their mission of educating the poor and yet having had a bad financial decade even before Covid hit including a 30% decline in enrollment: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/28/us/college-coronavirus-tuition.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 28, 2020, 12:59:02 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 23, 2020, 10:41:35 AM
For several years, the state flagships that are truly national gems have been in the news for what a small percentage of their budgets have come from the state.

Possibly useful information for those who missed it:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/05/public-higher-education-worse-spot-ever-heading-recession 

https://www.jkcf.org/research/state-university-no-more-out-of-state-enrollment-and-the-growing-exclusion-of-high-achieving-low-income-students-at-public-flagship-universities/

https://www.highereddive.com/news/are-we-seeing-the-dissolution-of-the-public-flagship-university/437869/

CU-Boulder is usually the poster child at under 10% of the budget from state appropriations: https://coloradosun.com/2019/02/25/colorado-universities-out-of-state-enrollment/

The smaller state branch campuses that get a substantial portion of their funding from state appropriations should be shaking in their boots at this point because cutting 20-50% of the budget as the state money runs out is much, much worse than having to make up 5 or 10% of the budget from the state appropriation cuts.

Why have we as a society been so determined in recent years to set up our youth to fail in life?  In funding for higher education, and in many, many other things.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on December 28, 2020, 03:05:53 PM
Why did Chronos eat his young?

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on December 28, 2020, 04:22:17 PM
Lots of cynical "prioritization" in this one, apparently to avoid dire straits.

https://www.oakpark.com/News/Articles/12-23-2020/Cuts-at-Concordia-put-college-on-edge---/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on December 28, 2020, 10:39:55 PM
Because the Boomers, who got the best of everything,  pulled up the ladders after they got it.  They have largely doubled down on this behavior,  even as their  grandchildren approach adulthood.   Sorry about not.coming to visit you in the old folks home, grandma,  I'm off to work my third job.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 29, 2020, 05:09:36 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 28, 2020, 10:39:55 PM
Because the Boomers, who got the best of everything,  pulled up the ladders after they got it.  They have largely doubled down on this behavior,  even as their  grandchildren approach adulthood.   Sorry about not.coming to visit you in the old folks home, grandma,  I'm off to work my third job.

I think the statistics probably show that boomers have invested a lot in their own children and grandchildren. The reason a lot of 30 year olds live at home is that they have all kinds of stuff at home that their boomer parents didn't have growing up. Boomers didn't expect to be making six figure salaries a few months into the first job which would be rewarding and allow work-life balance while making the world a better place. They just expected to have to find something to pay the rent.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 29, 2020, 07:18:10 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 28, 2020, 12:59:02 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 23, 2020, 10:41:35 AM
For several years, the state flagships that are truly national gems have been in the news for what a small percentage of their budgets have come from the state.

Possibly useful information for those who missed it:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/05/public-higher-education-worse-spot-ever-heading-recession 

https://www.jkcf.org/research/state-university-no-more-out-of-state-enrollment-and-the-growing-exclusion-of-high-achieving-low-income-students-at-public-flagship-universities/

https://www.highereddive.com/news/are-we-seeing-the-dissolution-of-the-public-flagship-university/437869/

CU-Boulder is usually the poster child at under 10% of the budget from state appropriations: https://coloradosun.com/2019/02/25/colorado-universities-out-of-state-enrollment/

The smaller state branch campuses that get a substantial portion of their funding from state appropriations should be shaking in their boots at this point because cutting 20-50% of the budget as the state money runs out is much, much worse than having to make up 5 or 10% of the budget from the state appropriation cuts.

Why have we as a society been so determined in recent years to set up our youth to fail in life?  In funding for higher education, and in many, many other things.

Only about a third of US adults over the age of 25 have a college degree.  If a college degree were truly important to success in life, then that fraction would be higher or far, far more people in the US would be in dire poverty (i.e., failure at life).  Instead, a good many people don't have college degree and are reasonably fine because of their personal networks or don't use their college degrees in any appreciable way and are reasonably fine because of their personal networks and other resources.

There's a huge number of people who start college in the US, but don't finish in any sort of timely manner: https://money.cnn.com/2015/03/25/news/economy/middle-class-kids-college/

Quote
Both stats found that fewer than half of middle class students were actually leaving with a bachelor's degree.

Only 40% of college entrants who were high school seniors in 2004 and whose families earned between $46,000 and $99,000 had secured bachelor's degrees by 2012, according to the first measure.

This compares to a graduation rate of 63% for those from the top of the income ladder, and 28% and 20% for moderate- and lower-income students, respectively.

Similarly, the second measure, which looks at all dependent students who started college in 2003 from families with incomes between $60,000 and $92,000, found that only 45% had earned a bachelor's by 2009.

Many community college attendees already have a bachelor's degree and go back to get something more job useful: https://hechingerreport.org/graduates-of-four-year-universities-flock-to-community-colleges-for-job-skills/

If a college degree were truly crucial to success in modern American society, then the dire poverty rate would be pretty close to 50% during normal times and would be mass starvation in the streets level here during Covid times.

But, it's not.

We're as a society short on people who can do certain jobs that require a college education (i.e., well beyond a solid K-12 education).

We're as a society short on people who want to do certain jobs that require a college education (i.e., jobs that can't be pick up by smart people who work hard right out of a solid K-12 education and that generally require math and computation followed by the science and technology that rely on being proficient in mathematical/computational thinking)

We're not, however, setting people up to fail because they lack a piece of paper that doesn't reflect a college education, especially when the places they want to live don't have very many jobs that require a college education or the great jobs are filled mostly by networking instead of an open call for special skills only obtained through specific college curriculum.  Nurses get jobs by answering job ads; most middle-class jobs where a college degree is standard don't advertise, but instead fill those jobs through friend of a friend discussion or the internship program.

Some places in the US are having a rough go now and in the most plausible foreseeable futures because they are places that few people not already living there want to live and have generally neglected their K-12 education to the point that their HS graduates cannot easily get a college education due to lack of academic preparation and non-academic habits that are absolutely required like being able to take good notes and learn at a level higher than mere memorization.  Those places don't die immediately because of the local jobs done by locals, but a more affordable college education is not going to fix their community problems.

I'm a lot more worried about what's going to happen as the engineering-and-a-few-other-fields degree-seeking foreign national population continues to drop (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02/drop-foreign-applicants-worries-us-engineering-schools), which means we will no longer be able to plug some gaps with students who immigrate and stay than I am that some people didn't get to study what they like for four years of a college experience before going into a middle class job that doesn't require the knowledge gained, but more reflects having a middle-class background.  That trend in enrollment was already started before Trump was elected in 2016: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2017/10/11/foreign-students-and-graduate-stem-enrollment

One way to fix the college funding problems is to reduce public enrollment to the people who can benefit from college, as is common in much of the world.  The US sends a lot of people to college who won't benefit and that drives up the cost by attempting to educate people who aren't even studying something they like, but are instead just trying to get a magic piece of paper they can use as an entry ticket into a middle-class job--a method that doesn't work if the job requires a college education that can be applied to a changing world and what someone has is an appreciation of the lyrics of The Major-General's Song (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major-General%27s_Song#Lyrics)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 29, 2020, 07:24:36 AM
The widespread neglect of K-12 education was one of the "many, many other things" that I had in mind.  Also various cultural and economic factors, which I won't get into here.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 29, 2020, 07:41:12 AM
Quote from: selecter on December 28, 2020, 04:22:17 PM
Lots of cynical "prioritization" in this one, apparently to avoid dire straits.

https://www.oakpark.com/News/Articles/12-23-2020/Cuts-at-Concordia-put-college-on-edge---/

Sounds simply realistic to me.  Apparently they're cutting some trendy majors, like "Game Art" and some of the business school programs, that they decided to try a few years back and found didn't pan out.  Cuts to the Gerontology program, if it is indeed a strong program for its size, wouldn't seem advisable.  Gerontology is going to be an important field in a nation with a rapidly aging population.

I don't really understand the criticism about an "anti-secularist agenda" in what is, after all, a denominationally-affiliated school.  It doesn't sound like they're firing people on religious grounds, or anything like that.  Most schools with an historical religious affiliation have moved very much in the opposite direction--and, like Super Dinky, have in the process lost any sort of distinctive mission or "brand identity" that would help them to stand out in a crowded field of small colleges.

They had separate programs in English as a Second Language and Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages.  What's the difference between ESL and TESOL?  I'm curious.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on December 29, 2020, 07:54:07 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 29, 2020, 07:24:36 AM
The widespread neglect of K-12 education was one of the "many, many other things" that I had in mind.  Also various cultural and economic factors, which I won't get into here.

That's nice. 

The lack of a college degree is still not failure for most people, especially those who weren't already firmly middle class and actively participating in the part of society where a college degree is considered standard, but there's no expectation to be employed in any capacity related to that degree.  The possession of the degree indicates a certain shared experience, not education.  There is a substantial research on higher ed outcomes that indicates people who started on base in life can do pretty much anything they like for their college years (as long as it's not actually prosecuted and convicted as criminal) and still be fine.

Those who are accustomed to some other good life like the skilled trades who spend their time going the apprentice/journeyman/master route don't miss out on a college education.  Indeed, in many places where the regional comprehensive is underfunded, many of the people in the region would be better served with apprenticeships that start in middle/high school instead of wasting time in college before dropping out.

Urban poverty is its own thing, but one practical action that shows promise in pilot programs is to set up a mechanism by which people who want to try a new life can move to a place with much less poverty and thereby acquire a more useful personal network that will be more helpful in getting one of the jobs that isn't advertised.

If the goal is to set people up for success in life, then part of the solution is to spend the resources we have in ways that will benefit people instead of insisting that there's one path to success (e.g., formal schooling done by people who love formal schooling that may not have anything to do with the life one wants to live) and being harsh about those who can't/won't/don't succeed on that path.  Education only works to the extent that people participate in their own education and then want to do whatever that education best prepares them to do.

Basic literacy is important; many of the other parts of school imposed on a community by the outsiders isn't important and that's one reason that K-12 schools fail when the only place one encounters "absolutely important skills and knowledge" is in the classroom.  When none of the adults know the material and it's clear that only teachers know the material, then the proficient critical thinker will conclude that the teachers are misinformed or lying about how important those skills and knowledge are.

In addition, many of the jobs that are becoming hard to fill in the US are the ones that are best learned through the apprenticeship route.  Forcing people who would be good at those jobs to do something else for several years (grades 6-12) before being allowed to leave a system that doesn't suit them means we're even shorter on people who want to do those jobs and would be good at those jobs than we have to be.  That is setting people up for failure through bad choices made for school funding.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: wellfleet on December 29, 2020, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 29, 2020, 07:41:12 AM
They had separate programs in English as a Second Language and Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages.  What's the difference between ESL and TESOL?  I'm curious.

At Concordia, it looks like the ESL program is designed for folks already teaching in the public schools who want to add to their certifications. The TESOL program seems to be aimed at people who want to teach English outside of public K-12, including to adults (I have a bunch of friends in this line of work, and they often teach abroad).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 29, 2020, 10:31:22 AM
Quote from: wellfleet on December 29, 2020, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 29, 2020, 07:41:12 AM
They had separate programs in English as a Second Language and Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages.  What's the difference between ESL and TESOL?  I'm curious.

At Concordia, it looks like the ESL program is designed for folks already teaching in the public schools who want to add to their certifications. The TESOL program seems to be aimed at people who want to teach English outside of public K-12, including to adults (I have a bunch of friends in this line of work, and they often teach abroad).

I can see making a distinction between these two sets of students.  So what difference does it make in terms of how the students are taught?  Are ESL classes couched in education-major jargon or something?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Stockmann on December 29, 2020, 01:03:34 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 29, 2020, 05:09:36 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 28, 2020, 10:39:55 PM
Because the Boomers, who got the best of everything,  pulled up the ladders after they got it.  They have largely doubled down on this behavior,  even as their  grandchildren approach adulthood.   Sorry about not.coming to visit you in the old folks home, grandma,  I'm off to work my third job.

I think the statistics probably show that boomers have invested a lot in their own children and grandchildren. The reason a lot of 30 year olds live at home is that they have all kinds of stuff at home that their boomer parents didn't have growing up. Boomers didn't expect to be making six figure salaries a few months into the first job which would be rewarding and allow work-life balance while making the world a better place. They just expected to have to find something to pay the rent.

Objectively, it was vastly easier for the boomers to fly the nest. Cheap houses, cheap college, plenty of jobs with a living wage, health insurance, a pension, etc.  In the present circumstances, lookin g for work-life balance, etc is probably more realistic than the things the boomers took for granted, like job security.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on December 29, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Private debt aside, we boomers have left a crushing national debt to our children, not even counting the coming Social Security shortfall.

So, what have future generations ever done for me?

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 29, 2020, 02:03:57 PM
Quote from: dismalist on December 29, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Private debt aside, we boomers have left a crushing national debt to our children, not even counting the coming Social Security shortfall.

Governments have gone into debt for centuries. If you read books from pretty much any period in history, the writers indicate how "times are tough now" and they will get better "someday" so borrowing now is OK since it will get paid off when times are good.

It's extremely rare to see any government anywhere say "Times are pretty good now, so we're going to pay down debt instead of reducing taxes or increasing program spending." Voters are self-interested enough to not support that.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on December 29, 2020, 04:33:33 PM
Quote from: dismalist on December 29, 2020, 01:25:04 PM
Private debt aside, we boomers have left a crushing national debt to our children, not even counting the coming Social Security shortfall.

So, what have future generations ever done for me?


The US's national debt is irrelevant. It's in US dollars, which means the US can always pay it. But it's also not actually a debt (the money isn't owed to the Federal Reserve or anything like that, nor is it owed to China in Yuan, or in gold bullion, or anything of the sort). Similarly, there is no real Social Security shortfall; it's purely an artifact of the way the SS budget has to be construed. Funding it is trivially easy, if Congress wants to do it.

Quote from: marshwiggle on December 29, 2020, 02:03:57 PM

Governments have gone into debt for centuries. If you read books from pretty much any period in history, the writers indicate how "times are tough now" and they will get better "someday" so borrowing now is OK since it will get paid off when times are good.


The "debt" (which is not a debt) is always already being paid off as US treasuries mature and are retired.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on December 29, 2020, 04:57:40 PM
QuoteIt's in US dollars, which means the US can always pay it.

Yup, inflate it away. No problem.

QuoteGovernments have gone into debt for centuries.

And have either serviced it, or defaulted, for centuries. Ya gotta keep paying interest.

Too much wishful thinking, I think.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on December 29, 2020, 05:31:25 PM
Quote from: dismalist on December 29, 2020, 04:57:40 PM

Yup, inflate it away. No problem.


The economists among us can weigh in and correct me, but my understanding is that that's not what creates inflation, at least not for currency-issuing entities. Inflation is generated by not having enough real resources available to supply demand (this is demand-pull inflation, which you can control with taxation; there's also cost-push). In other words, it's not money creation (on its own) that causes inflation, it's creating and distributing too much money when you're at full employment.

But anyway, the US's 'debt' is a good thing--everyone wants to buy up US Treasuries because they pay interest. They're central platforms in retirement accounts, investment portfolios, international trade, etc. You could erase it all in a flash if you wanted to, but that would leave everyone in a pretty bad way. Nobody actually wants that, or thinks it would be a good situation (see: what happened when Australia decided to start retiring too many bonds). So don't worry about the debt--worry about where those resources are being (mis)directed instead.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on December 29, 2020, 05:53:58 PM
QuoteSo don't worry about the debt--worry about where those resources are being (mis)directed instead.

That's a good way of putting it: Worry not about me paying off the debt, worry about you paying off the debt!

To remember, it's not about paying off the debt at all; it's about servicing the debt. That means more taxes. That means we can disagree over who pays them. If our disagreements do not come to an agreement on taxes, debt service will be cancelled by inflation. There is no other way. Not so much of a problem for those with real assets, like houses, or claims to real assets, like stocks. Good for you if you have a 401k or other alphabet soup in stocks, not bonds. The rest will suffer.

Anyway, this debt service and this debt is to be paid or wiped out by inflation. Future generations will do the paying.

There is no free lunch.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on December 29, 2020, 06:16:43 PM
I'm taking us too far afield, but:

Quote from: dismalist on December 29, 2020, 05:53:58 PM

To remember, it's not about paying off the debt at all; it's about servicing the debt. That means more taxes.

What's being paid is just interest on Treasuries. The Federal Reserve can always do that (and unless you do something stupid like return to the gold standard or adopt some other currency, it will always be able to do it). Taxes don't come into it at all.

It's really nothing like credit card debt, or the kinds of debts we're familiar with. It's not like China or Japan have a stash of US dollars and they mail them over when you need some. Calling it 'debt' is a real misnomer.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on December 29, 2020, 07:48:01 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 29, 2020, 06:16:43 PM
I'm taking us too far afield, but:

Quote from: dismalist on December 29, 2020, 05:53:58 PM

To remember, it's not about paying off the debt at all; it's about servicing the debt. That means more taxes.

What's being paid is just interest on Treasuries. The Federal Reserve can always do that (and unless you do something stupid like return to the gold standard or adopt some other currency, it will always be able to do it). Taxes don't come into it at all.

It's really nothing like credit card debt, or the kinds of debts we're familiar with. It's not like China or Japan have a stash of US dollars and they mail them over when you need some. Calling it 'debt' is a real misnomer.

Borrow from the FED to pay the interest. Money supply grows. That's what borrowing from the FED means. Unless people wish to hold the extra money, we get inflation. Why should they wish to hold the extra money?

None of this is new or strange.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on December 29, 2020, 09:19:59 PM
Explain to me,  marshy, how it is that those boomers, who did get their starts in life vastly more easily than their grandkids have it today, really  invested much in them,.certainly relative to what their wwii gen parents invested in them?  Buying kids lots of gizmos doesn't count.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: little bongo on December 30, 2020, 05:11:30 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 28, 2020, 06:34:41 AM
Speaking of the smaller branch campuses, Indiana University of Pennsylvania is in the NYT today for their mission of educating the poor and yet having had a bad financial decade even before Covid hit including a 30% decline in enrollment: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/28/us/college-coronavirus-tuition.html

A pretty fair-minded article, except for the shot about the Steinways. That was actually a necessary (and actually quite well-managed) expense for the Music Department.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 30, 2020, 06:21:22 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 29, 2020, 09:19:59 PM
Explain to me,  marshy, how it is that those boomers, who did get their starts in life vastly more easily than their grandkids have it today, really  invested much in them,.certainly relative to what their wwii gen parents invested in them?  Buying kids lots of gizmos doesn't count.

Using some of my own experiences as an example; I was the first generation to go to university. I took out a student loan in first year. None of my kids had to take out any loans, all graduated without debt, and were involved in many more extracurricular activities all through school then even existed in my generation. I'm sure lots of boomers on here could attest to similar circumstances.

Where post-secondary education costs have risen much faster than inflation, it's because all kinds of boomer parents would pay it to give their kids the best experience possible. The problem is that low income families, who couldn't contribute as much, can only finance that kind of education by taking on loads of debt.

If covid has the effect of making a lotof people realize that a lot of the expense of in-person instruction is unnecessary, then that could create a much-needed correction to how much people are willing to pay, which institutions would have to respond to. (The big-name, highly selective places will always be able to skim enough students from the 1% to thrive, but further down the food chain places will focus more on the education they provide than the expensive "experience", and the smart ones will do really well in consequence.)

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on December 30, 2020, 07:19:30 AM
I think everyone here would be interested in listening in on the "Grown & Flown" page on Facebook, which has 30,000+ parents of high school and college-age kids. The consensus on there is that the "full college experience" is absolutely essential and that not to have it makes a degree hardly worth getting. The full college experience involves living on campus, having a full social life (often involving fraternities/sororities), participating in sports and rooting for the college team, tailgating, and living an uproarious college-age lifestyle. With that not available, a lot of parents are withdrawing their kids for the duration. It's a fascinating look at a viewpoint not often see on the Fora. The only point at which they seem in agreement is that the humanities are useless because humanities majors allegedly don't lead to jobs. And one's reward for leading the college lifestyle should be a high-paying job.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 30, 2020, 08:04:56 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 30, 2020, 07:19:30 AM
I think everyone here would be interested in listening in on the "Grown & Flown" page on Facebook, which has 30,000+ parents of high school and college-age kids. The consensus on there is that the "full college experience" is absolutely essential and that not to have it makes a degree hardly worth getting. The full college experience involves living on campus, having a full social life (often involving fraternities/sororities), participating in sports and rooting for the college team, tailgating, and living an uproarious college-age lifestyle. With that not available, a lot of parents are withdrawing their kids for the duration. It's a fascinating look at a viewpoint not often see on the Fora. The only point at which they seem in agreement is that the humanities are useless because humanities majors allegedly don't lead to jobs. And one's reward for leading the college lifestyle should be a high-paying job.

I suspect there's also a pronounced consensus there that online education is something to be avoided if at all possible.  Never mind sputtering about how wonderful online education is if only it can be done right.  There are still people who say that the Soviet Union would have worked if only it had been done right.

It's probably going to take online education a long time to recover from the black eye that this year's improvised online education efforts have given it.

Sad to hear that parents seem to be under the impression that the "college lifestyle," rather than the actual nose-to-the-grindstone education, is what leads to good job opportunities.  That would explain a lot about student attitudes.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 30, 2020, 08:09:01 AM
Quote from: little bongo on December 30, 2020, 05:11:30 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on December 28, 2020, 06:34:41 AM
Speaking of the smaller branch campuses, Indiana University of Pennsylvania is in the NYT today for their mission of educating the poor and yet having had a bad financial decade even before Covid hit including a 30% decline in enrollment: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/28/us/college-coronavirus-tuition.html

A pretty fair-minded article, except for the shot about the Steinways. That was actually a necessary (and actually quite well-managed) expense for the Music Department.

IUP seems to have a clear mission and a plan to deliver on it, but does not have the revenue stream to support it. Any place that purports to have a mission to educate people from lower-income families cannot expect to have tuition play a big role in the budget. Replacing that source is only possible with a huge difference in structure. (Berea comes to mind as the sole private example.)

The cost per student is going to be high because it does require smaller classes, more counseling, more social services. Those things cost a lot more than climbing walls.

The pianos represent a large implied annual expense. How many teachers does it take to keep 90 pianos busy? How many HVAC techs to keep the rehearsal spaces at the right specifications. How do you build the curriculum so that the music majors have the business knowledge to make a career of music? The career aspirations may be as modes as a small-town music teacher, but success in that career takes a lot more kinds of expertise that musicianship. That program seems as reasonable for the institution as any many more common ones, and should be budgeted and supported realistically.

If the legislature covered the actual cost of delivering on the mission (>$30,000 per student per year), and that education were available to central Pennsylvania students at near-zero tuition, I bet there would be no enrollment drop at all.

Without that funding, it makes no sense to pretend that the budget model makes sense and just needs a closer eye on some expenses. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 30, 2020, 11:09:01 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 30, 2020, 08:04:56 AM
I suspect there's also a pronounced consensus there that online education is something to be avoided if at all possible.  Never mind sputtering about how wonderful online education is if only it can be done right.  There are still people who say that the Soviet Union would have worked if only it had been done right.

It's probably going to take online education a long time to recover from the black eye that this year's improvised online education efforts have given it.

I'm guessing there will at least be a minority for whom this was a good experience. For students who like working alone, and don't like coming to class and engaging in discussions, etc. this will probably be pretty appealing, especially when everything is done asynchronously. Similarly, for profs whose main task in lectures is presenting information, so that they don't rely on a lot of discussion, then again it will probably work well, especially when it can be asynchronous.

My bet would be that for something like 10% of students and *profs, this will have been worthwhile. Online is not going to replace in-person by any means, but for those that benefitted it opens to doors to further exploration.

*For profs, it might be more like 20% or more will have found this to work well for at least one specific course. I predict many profs who never tried to create online courses before will start to convert whatever course(s) worked well this way to regularly being online.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on December 30, 2020, 03:16:34 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 30, 2020, 07:19:30 AM
I think everyone here would be interested in listening in on the "Grown & Flown" page on Facebook, which has 30,000+ parents of high school and college-age kids. The consensus on there is that the "full college experience" is absolutely essential and that not to have it makes a degree hardly worth getting. The full college experience involves living on campus, having a full social life (often involving fraternities/sororities), participating in sports and rooting for the college team, tailgating, and living an uproarious college-age lifestyle. With that not available, a lot of parents are withdrawing their kids for the duration. It's a fascinating look at a viewpoint not often see on the Fora. The only point at which they seem in agreement is that the humanities are useless because humanities majors allegedly don't lead to jobs. And one's reward for leading the college lifestyle should be a high-paying job.

It's easy to make fun of that, and certainly parts of a "college lifestyle" may not be healthy, but social interaction is immensely important to their development as they transition to adulthood. It's not frivolous-- humans learn best through interactions with other humans, and what they are learning goes well beyond the classroom to clubs, activities, late night conversations, etc. Even very good online classes are a poor substitute, just like zoom holidays are a poor substitute for actually traveling to see your family. Even the students attending in person are having a very impoverished experience compared to normal times (few in person activities, eating alone in their rooms, etc.). We're doing the best we can under the circumstances, but let's not pretend it's somehow just as good.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on December 30, 2020, 09:15:04 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 30, 2020, 07:19:30 AM
I think everyone here would be interested in listening in on the "Grown & Flown" page on Facebook, which has 30,000+ parents of high school and college-age kids. The consensus on there is that the "full college experience" is absolutely essential and that not to have it makes a degree hardly worth getting. The full college experience involves living on campus, having a full social life (often involving fraternities/sororities), participating in sports and rooting for the college team, tailgating, and living an uproarious college-age lifestyle. With that not available, a lot of parents are withdrawing their kids for the duration. It's a fascinating look at a viewpoint not often see on the Fora. The only point at which they seem in agreement is that the humanities are useless because humanities majors allegedly don't lead to jobs. And one's reward for leading the college lifestyle should be a high-paying job.

Going off to look.

Any group with tens of thousands of members should be on our radar.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on December 30, 2020, 09:33:10 PM
Random thoughts:

1.  First generation students will always, or at least almost always, be in different circumstances than students from  college educated parents.  Your ability to offer these things to your kids, things your parents could not have given you,  is much more likely with that college degree.   But my point is not that any given boomer parents have or have not paid more for their kids than their own parents may have, but rather that, taken as a whole, the college aged boomers themselves entered their college years in an environment where society as a whole had vastly more substantially invested in those kids' education and employment opportunities than today's college age kids are faced with.  This is unambiguously true (though perhaps  less so in Canada?), and it is true largely because the boomers,  who have dominated politics for the last 30 to 40 years, have made it so, mobilizing wealth and opportunities for themselves at the increasing expense of subsequent generations.

2.  I get your point wrt wealthy parents and their kids being willing to spend high for college 'experience ' that bears little resemblance to real education quality,  but let's not throw the baby put with the bathwater  ... for most subjects,  online ed just ain't as good as ftf, esp in slac-style environments.   Really, it ain't.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 31, 2020, 04:35:40 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 30, 2020, 03:16:34 PM
Even very good online classes are a poor substitute, just like zoom holidays are a poor substitute for actually traveling to see your family.

But being able to "attend" a celebration, funeral, etc. with people who are too far away to be able to do it in person is an improvement over having no option at all.

Quote
Even the students attending in person are having a very impoverished experience compared to normal times (few in person activities, eating alone in their rooms, etc.). We're doing the best we can under the circumstances, but let's not pretend it's somehow just as good.

Having to treat the experience as monolithic misses the point. It is already the case that many students have taken courses online when they are not physically at school, (such as during the summer), and have found it a useful option. Having more choices like that will be a good thing. (For example, some students have to miss a term due to illness, or family responsibilities preventing them from being in person. Being able to do even some of their coursework remotely would allow them to keep moving forward.)

Quote from: kaysixteen on December 30, 2020, 09:33:10 PM
[L]et's not throw the baby put with the bathwater  ... for most subjects,  online ed just ain't as good as ftf, esp in slac-style environments.   Really, it ain't.

The question isn't what kind of instruction is "best" in any absolute sense; what matters is what is a reasonably effective option for a given student at a given time. (And let's be honest. There are lots of mediocre and worse instructors who don't give a particularly great experience ever. A good online course would be a vast improvement in cases like that for many students.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 31, 2020, 07:24:21 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 30, 2020, 03:16:34 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 30, 2020, 07:19:30 AM
I think everyone here would be interested in listening in on the "Grown & Flown" page on Facebook, which has 30,000+ parents of high school and college-age kids. The consensus on there is that the "full college experience" is absolutely essential and that not to have it makes a degree hardly worth getting. The full college experience involves living on campus, having a full social life (often involving fraternities/sororities), participating in sports and rooting for the college team, tailgating, and living an uproarious college-age lifestyle. With that not available, a lot of parents are withdrawing their kids for the duration. It's a fascinating look at a viewpoint not often see on the Fora. The only point at which they seem in agreement is that the humanities are useless because humanities majors allegedly don't lead to jobs. And one's reward for leading the college lifestyle should be a high-paying job.

It's easy to make fun of that, and certainly parts of a "college lifestyle" may not be healthy, but social interaction is immensely important to their development as they transition to adulthood. It's not frivolous-- humans learn best through interactions with other humans, and what they are learning goes well beyond the classroom to clubs, activities, late night conversations, etc. Even very good online classes are a poor substitute, just like zoom holidays are a poor substitute for actually traveling to see your family. Even the students attending in person are having a very impoverished experience compared to normal times (few in person activities, eating alone in their rooms, etc.). We're doing the best we can under the circumstances, but let's not pretend it's somehow just as good.

That's a good point.  As badly as it is so often abused, giving traditional-age college students a chance to practice building a society among themselves can be a valuable experience.  My parents actually gently pushed me to become MORE involved in the non-academic side of things, because they knew that my extreme introversion could be harmful in the long run.  I was able to do so in a campus environment where the school's administration worked to hold the abuses of the Greek system and such firmly in check. 

And though I'm grateful for having been able to take advantage of an online-only option to earn my professional library degree, I just don't see online-only being an adequate substitute for most traditional-age students.  They need face-to-face.  I'm hoping that the widespread sub-par online experiences of this year's students will help to squelch the pernicious notion we've been hearing that online education will somehow enable us to educate our nation's youth in a cheaper and more efficient fashion.  Good online education--the kind that if anything costs MORE time and resources than much face-to-face instruction--has its place, but so much of the push to online has really been a push for fobbing off the poorer members of society with an inferior substitute education.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 31, 2020, 07:27:35 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 30, 2020, 09:33:10 PM
Random thoughts:

1.  First generation students will always, or at least almost always, be in different circumstances than students from  college educated parents.  Your ability to offer these things to your kids, things your parents could not have given you,  is much more likely with that college degree.   But my point is not that any given boomer parents have or have not paid more for their kids than their own parents may have, but rather that, taken as a whole, the college aged boomers themselves entered their college years in an environment where society as a whole had vastly more substantially invested in those kids' education and employment opportunities than today's college age kids are faced with.  This is unambiguously true (though perhaps  less so in Canada?), and it is true largely because the boomers,  who have dominated politics for the last 30 to 40 years, have made it so, mobilizing wealth and opportunities for themselves at the increasing expense of subsequent generations.

I think I understand what you're trying to say here.  And I think you're substantially right.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 31, 2020, 07:47:55 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 31, 2020, 07:27:35 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 30, 2020, 09:33:10 PM
Random thoughts:

1.  First generation students will always, or at least almost always, be in different circumstances than students from  college educated parents.  Your ability to offer these things to your kids, things your parents could not have given you,  is much more likely with that college degree.   But my point is not that any given boomer parents have or have not paid more for their kids than their own parents may have, but rather that, taken as a whole, the college aged boomers themselves entered their college years in an environment where society as a whole had vastly more substantially invested in those kids' education and employment opportunities than today's college age kids are faced with.  This is unambiguously true (though perhaps  less so in Canada?), and it is true largely because the boomers,  who have dominated politics for the last 30 to 40 years, have made it so, mobilizing wealth and opportunities for themselves at the increasing expense of subsequent generations.

I think I understand what you're trying to say here.  And I think you're substantially right.

Here's some perspective (https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cpb.asp):
Quote
The overall college enrollment rate for 18- to 24-year-olds increased from 35 percent in 2000 to 41 percent in 2018. In this indicator, college enrollment rate is defined as the percentage of 18- to 24-year-olds enrolled as undergraduate or graduate students in 2- or 4-year institutions.

And more (https://educationdata.org/college-enrollment-statistics#:~:text=College%20enrollment%20rates%20have%20increased,full%2Dtime%20students%20were%20enrolled.):

Quote
College enrollment rates have increased 195% since 1970, when 3.5% of the U.S. population were college students.

So even without climbing walls and all of the fluff, the proportion of the population going to post-secondary education has increased drastically, with the associated drastic increase in costs. Furthermore, as the proportion of the population has gone up, it includes a much higher percentage of weaker students than would have been considered decades ago.

The bottom line is that the expectations have risen much faster than inflation, so even using a constant portion of government revenue would have resulted in funding falling increasingly far below those expectations.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 31, 2020, 09:40:19 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 30, 2020, 07:19:30 AM
I think everyone here would be interested in listening in on the "Grown & Flown" page on Facebook, which has 30,000+ parents of high school and college-age kids. The consensus on there is that the "full college experience" is absolutely essential and that not to have it makes a degree hardly worth getting. The full college experience involves living on campus, having a full social life (often involving fraternities/sororities), participating in sports and rooting for the college team, tailgating, and living an uproarious college-age lifestyle. With that not available, a lot of parents are withdrawing their kids for the duration. It's a fascinating look at a viewpoint not often see on the Fora. The only point at which they seem in agreement is that the humanities are useless because humanities majors allegedly don't lead to jobs. And one's reward for leading the college lifestyle should be a high-paying job.

Sounds like a chapter in Thorstein Veblen's Theory of the Leisure Class. Or the results of a market research study on white suburbanites who voted for Trump in 2016.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 01, 2021, 12:35:42 PM
Pacific Lutheran University has declared financial exigency: https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article247922835.html

This is after already cutting faculty in 2016 with 31 faculty positions lost.  A minimum of 40 faculty positions are expected to be lost in this iteration.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on January 01, 2021, 02:04:28 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 01, 2021, 12:35:42 PM
Pacific Lutheran University has declared financial exigency: https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article247922835.html

This is after already cutting faculty in 2016 with 31 faculty positions lost.  A minimum of 40 faculty positions are expected to be lost in this iteration.


I am confident the major and minor in Criminal Justice they started this year will bail them out.

Sure.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on January 01, 2021, 02:39:05 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 01, 2021, 12:35:42 PM
Pacific Lutheran University has declared financial exigency: https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article247922835.html

This is after already cutting faculty in 2016 with 31 faculty positions lost.  A minimum of 40 faculty positions are expected to be lost in this iteration.

PLU is a venerable institution as old as the state itself, but this isn't particularly surprising--at the time it was founded the region was  heavily settled by Scandinavian immigrants, so there was a market for a Lutheran college. Washington is now one of the least religious states, so that isn't much of a draw anymore. They don't have name brand recognition or prestige that would draw out of state students, and it isn't clear why in state students would prefer it to the much lower tuition and greater resources at UW, which is just up the road and also has a branch campus in Tacoma. Basically same story as a lot of religiously affiliated colleges without anything in particular that makes them stand out.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 01, 2021, 02:41:16 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on January 01, 2021, 02:04:28 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 01, 2021, 12:35:42 PM
Pacific Lutheran University has declared financial exigency: https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article247922835.html

This is after already cutting faculty in 2016 with 31 faculty positions lost.  A minimum of 40 faculty positions are expected to be lost in this iteration.


I am confident the major and minor in Criminal Justice they started this year will bail them out.

Sure.

Negative net revenue for FYs 2012, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2018. Form 990 for FY 2019 not available yet.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 02, 2021, 06:49:41 AM
Quote from: spork on January 01, 2021, 02:41:16 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on January 01, 2021, 02:04:28 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 01, 2021, 12:35:42 PM
Pacific Lutheran University has declared financial exigency: https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article247922835.html

This is after already cutting faculty in 2016 with 31 faculty positions lost.  A minimum of 40 faculty positions are expected to be lost in this iteration.


I am confident the major and minor in Criminal Justice they started this year will bail them out.

Sure.

Negative net revenue for FYs 2012, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2018. Form 990 for FY 2019 not available yet.

Criminal justice is a very popular major nationally.  However, starting a new program now in some regions means being a day late and a dollar short, especially as a relatively expensive institution.

One stupid choice that Super Dinky made under a new president was to double down on the damn liberal arts idea instead of betting on the already booming criminal justice program with two related hot specialties that were relatively unique in the region, cost effective to offer if we already had CJ, and seldom offered at small colleges.  But nooooooooooooooooooo, a good CJ program isn't liberal arts and therefore instead of going with a strength that could have grown quite nicely, SD actively undermined popular majors in which we could get faculty in favor of trying to sell something everyone had usually at cheaper prices with better selection of courses.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 02, 2021, 06:53:10 AM
Speaking of criminal justice, Lincoln University in Missouri is opening a police academy, the first HBCU to do so.

https://themissouritimes.com/lincoln-university-becomes-first-hbcu-in-country-to-host-police-academy/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on January 02, 2021, 09:38:36 AM
I think in far too many places Criminal Justice is the undergrad equivalent of an MBA: a fake path to prosperity both for the institution and the students who are being ripped off. Poorly done and more costly than portrayed. Students end up with a degree that really leads to nothing in the way of real job prospects, and a mountain of debt.

And don't get me started on all the high school students who STILL think they can take that path to a non-existent CSI-NCIS-FBI-xxx solve everything with a computer in 20 minutes career.

Time to try out my new blood pressure cuff.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on January 02, 2021, 10:57:37 AM
Too bad so much of the criminal justice content is pseudo-scientific bullshit.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 02, 2021, 12:47:42 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 02, 2021, 10:57:37 AM
Too bad so much of the criminal justice content is pseudo-scientific bullshit.

That's never been a problem for lots of "<whatever> Studies" programs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on January 02, 2021, 01:04:18 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 02, 2021, 12:47:42 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 02, 2021, 10:57:37 AM
Too bad so much of the criminal justice content is pseudo-scientific bullshit.

That's never been a problem for lots of "<whatever> Studies" programs.

Even if that's true--and I don't think it is, since the kind of scholarship at stake is very different--the stakes are a lot lower. Forensic odontology, for instance, actually harms people, and believing in it causes you to harm people.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 02, 2021, 01:41:17 PM
The CJ programs I'm used to are a lot of stories by current police officers/judges/similar for their one course as professional fellows, a good dollop of psychology, and a tiny bit of biology/anthropology/sociology.

If it doesn't matter the major in college, then this is at least a pleasant way to spend a few years...just like many of the humanities majors.

Those who have aspirations of being forensic anything and have done their research are majoring in anthropology or chemistry, not CJ.  The actual science is still useful, even if they become a different type of scientist.  The magic of some parts of forensics aren't science and therefore don't require a science background.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 02, 2021, 01:45:32 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 02, 2021, 01:04:18 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 02, 2021, 12:47:42 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 02, 2021, 10:57:37 AM
Too bad so much of the criminal justice content is pseudo-scientific bullshit.

That's never been a problem for lots of "<whatever> Studies" programs.

Even if that's true--and I don't think it is, since the kind of scholarship at stake is very different--the stakes are a lot lower. Forensic odontology, for instance, actually harms people, and believing in it causes you to harm people.

There's plenty of harm being done by the "<whatever> Studies" programs because those professors are consulted when the PR need arises and those professors provide wish lists instead of actual knowledge regarding humans based on quantitative research such as one might do if they knew sociology or anthropology.

Some of the bad decisions being made now regarding reforming policing are the result of bad "<whatever> Studies" thoughts instead of good CJ research and observations.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on January 02, 2021, 02:28:57 PM
What kind of "Whatever Studies" are you all talking about?  In the places I'm familiar with, we have Religious Studies, Theatre and Performance Studies, Medieval Studies, Asian Studies, Italian Studies, and Russian/East European Studies. You may not think any humanities fields are worthwhile, but these are as rigorous as any other humanities program, and more interdisciplinary to boot. I think maybe it's time for academics to stop dissing any field that's not their own: "Those people are politically correct lightweights and their field of study is cartoonish!" We've got enough anti-intellectualism in the culture at large without the call coming from inside the house.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on January 02, 2021, 05:02:16 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 02, 2021, 01:41:17 PM


Those who have aspirations of being forensic anything and have done their research are majoring in anthropology or chemistry, not CJ.  The actual science is still useful, even if they become a different type of scientist.  The magic of some parts of forensics aren't science and therefore don't require a science background.

At least here, a lot of the students in the program aspire to be cops. That's what concerns me.

And the consequences of their misunderstandings and faith in junk science are severe and direct, as opposed to whatever PR "damage" is done by someone who's calling for the wrong kinds of reforms (if that's even the case, which I suspect we disagree about in the first place).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on January 02, 2021, 07:11:27 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on January 02, 2021, 02:28:57 PM
What kind of "Whatever Studies" are you all talking about?  In the places I'm familiar with, we have Religious Studies, Theatre and Performance Studies, Medieval Studies, Asian Studies, Italian Studies, and Russian/East European Studies. You may not think any humanities fields are worthwhile, but these are as rigorous as any other humanities program, and more interdisciplinary to boot. I think maybe it's time for academics to stop dissing any field that's not their own: "Those people are politically correct lightweights and their field of study is cartoonish!" We've got enough anti-intellectualism in the culture at large without the call coming from inside the house.

Overall, I agree, but I've seen problems in programs like "Dance Studies," rather than, say courses of study entitled "Dance ethnology," or "Dance history" which have the potential to be fairly rigorous.

The conversation I had with one student was dispiriting, in that, rather than learning chrological dance devopment in various places and climes, she was allowed to study "Themes in Dance," without learning any of the dance techniques applicable to the culture in question; nothing of the history, literature, or visual arts of the culture; and no sense of how religion, politics or historical invasions might have influenced or inflected the dance she wanted to study.

She was interested in India, as I recall...where those elements have had serious effects on the dances themselves, how they are taught now, and how they may have functioned ritually as well as programmatically in the past.

It was a pleasant kind of "dance lite," that had no grounding in anything but her imagination, and most definitely suffered from several kinds of cultural misappropriation, which she laughed off, when I pointed them out, saying, " but my advisor has already approved that chapter, so it must be ok."

Screaming would have done no good, so I remained silent...

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: PScientist on January 02, 2021, 07:29:26 PM
At our place, we have both "criminology" and "criminal justice" majors.  The criminology major is run by a retired cop and follows the narrative that crime is caused primarily by individual deviance.  On the other hand, the criminal justice major is controlled by the sociology department and promotes the idea that crime is primarily a consequence of systemic social failure.  A few years ago, the administration made these groups get together and talk about merging, and it was clear that they did not speak a common language.

Most of the future cops choose criminology, and most of the future defense attorneys choose criminal justice.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on January 02, 2021, 07:47:25 PM
Quote from: PScientist on January 02, 2021, 07:29:26 PM
At our place, we have both "criminology" and "criminal justice" majors.  The criminology major is run by a retired cop and follows the narrative that crime is caused primarily by individual deviance.  On the other hand, the criminal justice major is controlled by the sociology department and promotes the idea that crime is primarily a consequence of systemic social failure.  A few years ago, the administration made these groups get together and talk about merging, and it was clear that they did not speak a common language.

Most of the future cops choose criminology, and most of the future defense attorneys choose criminal justice.

Wow.


I wonder how robust and widespread that distinction between subjects is. Interesting to learn about it, though!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 02, 2021, 08:07:57 PM
Quote from: mamselle on January 02, 2021, 07:11:27 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on January 02, 2021, 02:28:57 PM
What kind of "Whatever Studies" are you all talking about?  In the places I'm familiar with, we have Religious Studies, Theatre and Performance Studies, Medieval Studies, Asian Studies, Italian Studies, and Russian/East European Studies. You may not think any humanities fields are worthwhile, but these are as rigorous as any other humanities program, and more interdisciplinary to boot. I think maybe it's time for academics to stop dissing any field that's not their own: "Those people are politically correct lightweights and their field of study is cartoonish!" We've got enough anti-intellectualism in the culture at large without the call coming from inside the house.

Overall, I agree, but I've seen problems in programs like "Dance Studies," rather than, say courses of study entitled "Dance ethnology," or "Dance history" which have the potential to be fairly rigorous.

The conversation I had with one student was dispiriting, in that, rather than learning chrological dance devopment in various places and climes, she was allowed to study "Themes in Dance," without learning any of the dance techniques applicable to the culture in question; nothing of the history, literature, or visual arts of the culture; and no sense of how religion, politics or historical invasions might have influenced or inflected the dance she wanted to study.


That's very much the way it seems to work with things like "Health Studies" (as opposed to "Health Science") or "Computer Studies" instead of "Computer Science". It's apparently a short form for "We take out all of the hard stuff like math, but talk about the subject as though you were actually learning something, and hope that potential employers won't notice the difference." So "Dance Studies" not including much actual dance is right on point.

And disciplines run by activists often also have the "Studies" label, and are basically dedicated to promoting an ideological viewpoint rather than actually trying to discover the truth, whatever it may be.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Stockmann on January 03, 2021, 11:58:59 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on January 02, 2021, 02:28:57 PM
...You may not think any humanities fields are worthwhile, but these are as rigorous as any other humanities program, and more interdisciplinary to boot. I think maybe it's time for academics to stop dissing any field that's not their own: "Those people are politically correct lightweights and their field of study is cartoonish!" We've got enough anti-intellectualism in the culture at large without the call coming from inside the house.

The calls may be coming from inside the house, but it's not just STEM folks making them. I've all too often encountered attitudes from humanities folks along the lines that STEM involves no critical thinking - or even thinking at all, that it's merely number crunching, and that creativity, imagination, etc are only found in the humanities.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on January 03, 2021, 12:15:59 PM
I can think of some "creative" suggestions for your humanities colleagues who diss STEM.

More seriously, I've occasionally said the same thing myself!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 03, 2021, 01:12:54 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 02, 2021, 08:07:57 PM
Quote from: mamselle on January 02, 2021, 07:11:27 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on January 02, 2021, 02:28:57 PM
What kind of "Whatever Studies" are you all talking about?  In the places I'm familiar with, we have Religious Studies, Theatre and Performance Studies, Medieval Studies, Asian Studies, Italian Studies, and Russian/East European Studies. You may not think any humanities fields are worthwhile, but these are as rigorous as any other humanities program, and more interdisciplinary to boot. I think maybe it's time for academics to stop dissing any field that's not their own: "Those people are politically correct lightweights and their field of study is cartoonish!" We've got enough anti-intellectualism in the culture at large without the call coming from inside the house.

Overall, I agree, but I've seen problems in programs like "Dance Studies," rather than, say courses of study entitled "Dance ethnology," or "Dance history" which have the potential to be fairly rigorous.

The conversation I had with one student was dispiriting, in that, rather than learning chrological dance devopment in various places and climes, she was allowed to study "Themes in Dance," without learning any of the dance techniques applicable to the culture in question; nothing of the history, literature, or visual arts of the culture; and no sense of how religion, politics or historical invasions might have influenced or inflected the dance she wanted to study.


That's very much the way it seems to work with things like "Health Studies" (as opposed to "Health Science") or "Computer Studies" instead of "Computer Science". It's apparently a short form for "We take out all of the hard stuff like math, but talk about the subject as though you were actually learning something, and hope that potential employers won't notice the difference." So "Dance Studies" not including much actual dance is right on point.

And disciplines run by activists often also have the "Studies" label, and are basically dedicated to promoting an ideological viewpoint rather than actually trying to discover the truth, whatever it may be.

At the small enrollment institutions I have worked at or am otherwise familiar with, "Studies" programs are usually:

1) attempts to get butts in seats (a) with a "Discipline Lite" option to prolong the survival of departments that no longer attract majors or (b) by capturing students that would otherwise be free to take courses in other departments (e.g., the 70+ credit programs in "international business studies" or "elementary education"),

2) attempts to build a quality interdisciplinary program with demonstrated student interest but whose creation is opposed by existing departments that lack majors, or

3) something that started with a curricular development grant that ended a long time ago and is now a hollow shell because no one teaches the required courses on a regular schedule.

I have never seen a "Studies" program dedicated to promoting the ideological viewpoint of its faculty, but then again I have never worked at a place like NYU where perhaps that kind of thing occurs. At institutions where departments often consist of 2-4 faculty members the major obstacle is getting gen ed courses to count toward "Studies" requirements because those are the courses that always meet minimum enrollment.

A "Studies" program with actual meat to it requires training in fundamental skills. Guilford College, which has been mentioned numerous times on this thread, had (maybe it still exists, I don't know) a minor in Japanese Studies that required two years of Japanese language and at least one other Japanese history or society course. Its Japanese Studies major required advanced Japanese language study and study abroad in Japan. In contrast, I would say that a Religious Studies program in which students are not learning a scriptural language like Hebrew, Greek, or Arabic, or a Data Science Studies program in which students are not learning statistics, is bogus in terms of content.

At my own employer, I have seen a proliferation of minors and majors that fall under the "Studies" umbrella. It's a faculty strategy of competing for a larger piece of a shrinking pie of students. But these programs, whether they are quality or non-quality, do nothing but lead to an even more over-worked faculty and the hiring of more adjuncts, which drives up the costs of instruction and reduces the financial viability of the university. What really needs to happen is for some programs/departments to be totally eliminated.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: reener06 on January 03, 2021, 01:40:36 PM

[/quote]
At my own employer, I have seen a proliferation of minors and majors that fall under the "Studies" umbrella. It's a faculty strategy of competing for a larger piece of a shrinking pie of students. But these programs, whether they are quality or non-quality, do nothing but lead to an even more over-worked faculty and the hiring of more adjuncts, which drives up the costs of instruction and reduces the financial viability of the university. What really needs to happen is for some programs/departments to be totally eliminated.
[/quote]

This right here describes my university very well. The problem is, no one has figured that out, so these programs limp along. In addition, since most of my department are joint appointments with these study areas, that means those faculty are overworked and the non joint appointed people are overworked as well. We look like we have a lot of faculty, but most in my area of study are half-time. It sucks all around.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on January 03, 2021, 01:51:15 PM
I do want to go back, though, to reinforce Hegemony's overall point, which is that it needn't be as woeful as we've been describing it.

I benefitted from two out of three programs that were defined as Independent Study Majors: both were rigorous, made me work hard, and I'm still gratefully working on spin-offs from the research I did in them. The third was poorly thought-through, had few adequate advisors for the subjects they said they could cover, and omitted major elements of study that would have been useful.

I'm still working from the materials I did in that program, too, but the process has been much harder, and I basically had to supply the rigor myself, by finding outside mentors to work with.

Two out of three's not bad, but the 1/3 that are "soft" are seriously problematic.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on January 03, 2021, 04:17:52 PM
Hmmm,  it depends on how you define 'studies'.  Some 'classical studies ' majors, in departments that also offer a 'classics' major as well, are essentially just lit in translation-cum-history and culture of antiquity options that offer little if any Latin or Greek language reqs, but such are not sufficient for admission to  graduate school in classics and normally should not be enough for k12 Latin teacher prep.  'Religious studies', on the other hand,  could well encompass a program of decent, legitimate,  and effective study without requiring training in any language that various ancient religious texts were written in.   We could likely discuss and discern what such a Religious studies program might entail and prep students for...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on January 03, 2021, 09:11:21 PM
True, and "Religious studies" often has the specific meaning of "interfaith," or "non-Western/non-Christian" work in a school that already has a Theology Dept. where the implication is or has been the study of Christian theology.

Sometimes interfaith/non-Western departments came into existence later in a school's history, so the two sets of terms are intended to allay confusion without judgemental overtones.

And those programs can be quite rigorous, thinking of places like Chicago, the GTU schools, Harvard's World Religions programs, etc.

So, context is important.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 04, 2021, 05:48:38 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 03, 2021, 04:17:52 PM
Some 'classical studies ' majors, in departments that also offer a 'classics' major as well, are essentially just lit in translation-cum-history and culture of antiquity options that offer little if any Latin or Greek language reqs, but such are not sufficient for admission to  graduate school in classics and normally should not be enough for k12 Latin teacher prep.  'Religious studies', on the other hand,  could well encompass a program of decent, legitimate,  and effective study without requiring training in any language that various ancient religious texts were written in.   We could likely discuss and discern what such a Religious studies program might entail and prep students for...

Quote from: mamselle on January 03, 2021, 09:11:21 PM
True, and "Religious studies" often has the specific meaning of "interfaith," or "non-Western/non-Christian" work in a school that already has a Theology Dept. where the implication is or has been the study of Christian theology.

I think these illustrate the problem with "studies". On the one hand, it can mean "not JUST X", (such as "Italian Studies" meaning not just studying Italian, i.e. the language), but it can also mean "no specific minimum of X" , (so no specific proficiency in Italian is needed to complete the requirements.)

It's that ambiguity that causes the problem, and it's why the latter is used to fill up seats with the hope that people perceive the value of the former.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on January 04, 2021, 06:02:31 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 04, 2021, 05:48:38 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 03, 2021, 04:17:52 PM

I think these illustrate the problem with "studies". On the one hand, it can mean "not JUST X", (such as "Italian Studies" meaning not just studying Italian, i.e. the language), but it can also mean "no specific minimum of X" , (so no specific proficiency in Italian is needed to complete the requirements.)

It's that ambiguity that causes the problem, and it's why the latter is used to fill up seats with the hope that people perceive the value of the former.

The word "study" is central to the academic enterprise, so it is a shame that it's meaning become so ambiguous that is is not usable. This discussion shows that it is being used to signal less studying, the opposite of what it ought to mean.  We may have to abandon the term for a while and use an unambiguous term for the rigorous curricula.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on January 04, 2021, 08:49:45 AM
Considering the huge discrepancy in, say, Physics majors, across schools, its a little odd that people automatically assume "studies" majors are non-rigorous and wouldn't have similar issues more generally. You really do have to look at the specific major.

I get why people have this as their "go to" bugaboo: there are some "studies" programs that are politically agendized. There are some related to STEM programs that are sometimes just a diluted version of the same major labeled as "Sciences" (Say, Environmental Studies vs. Environmental Sciences). But you really do have to look at the specific situation rather than just blanketly say that "Studies" majors are unserious.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 04, 2021, 10:14:01 AM
Judson College will open for spring semester:

https://www.judson.edu/news/judson-to-open-for-spring-2021/ (https://www.judson.edu/news/judson-to-open-for-spring-2021/).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 04, 2021, 10:29:43 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on January 04, 2021, 08:49:45 AM
Considering the huge discrepancy in, say, Physics majors, across schools, its a little odd that people automatically assume "studies" majors are non-rigorous and wouldn't have similar issues more generally. You really do have to look at the specific major.

If you have some trends to look out for in comparing Phyics (or other) programs, I'd be glad to hear them. (For instance, programs with fewer labs are possibly of lower quality. Even if there may be exceptions, if there's a pattern it's worth identifying.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on January 04, 2021, 10:32:01 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on January 04, 2021, 08:49:45 AM
But you really do have to look at the specific situation rather than just blanketly say that "Studies" majors are unserious.

It sounds like they really are all over the place.  That's a matter for concern, since it makes it necessary for prospective students to do due diligence about the quality of programs they're considering.  They're often not well equipped to do that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on January 04, 2021, 10:38:10 AM
Quote from: spork on January 04, 2021, 10:14:01 AM
Judson College will open for spring semester:

https://www.judson.edu/news/judson-to-open-for-spring-2021/ (https://www.judson.edu/news/judson-to-open-for-spring-2021/).

Well, it looks like their appeal met with a strong response.  It's touching to see such a response.  And still hard to see where this is likely to do anything but postpone the inevitable, using up resources in the process that might have been better applied elsewhere.  as Secondem_artem put it above, "Starting a GoFundMe campaign is no way to run a college."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on January 04, 2021, 10:42:11 AM
Quote from: spork on January 01, 2021, 02:41:16 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on January 01, 2021, 02:04:28 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 01, 2021, 12:35:42 PM
Pacific Lutheran University has declared financial exigency: https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article247922835.html

This is after already cutting faculty in 2016 with 31 faculty positions lost.  A minimum of 40 faculty positions are expected to be lost in this iteration.


I am confident the major and minor in Criminal Justice they started this year will bail them out.

Sure.

Negative net revenue for FYs 2012, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2018. Form 990 for FY 2019 not available yet.

Wonder what all they're going to end up cutting?  That's going to be a big chunk of faculty at a school that size.  It's not looking good for them long-term.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 04, 2021, 06:31:26 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on January 03, 2021, 11:58:59 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on January 02, 2021, 02:28:57 PM
...You may not think any humanities fields are worthwhile, but these are as rigorous as any other humanities program, and more interdisciplinary to boot. I think maybe it's time for academics to stop dissing any field that's not their own: "Those people are politically correct lightweights and their field of study is cartoonish!" We've got enough anti-intellectualism in the culture at large without the call coming from inside the house.

The calls may be coming from inside the house, but it's not just STEM folks making them. I've all too often encountered attitudes from humanities folks along the lines that STEM involves no critical thinking - or even thinking at all, that it's merely number crunching, and that creativity, imagination, etc are only found in the humanities.
Try being an engineer or being in business.  We don't even count as being worthy to be considered part of academia.

I am always amused when people want to defend their parts of academia without a leg on which to stand.  For example, asserting that one lightweight area is just as rigorous as another lightweight area doesn't help the case.

I'm not against the humanities or intellectuals in general, but it gets old to have assertions of general value when the general examples don't support that case.  Watching some parts of the fora who can't/won't/don't do their jobs by their own stories and questions while asserting that they can't/won't/don't other types of jobs actively undermines any assertion that the humanities have more intrinsic value than other endeavors.  And that's before we get to the complexities of modern life that requires being proficient at technology and algorithmic thinking, even in the absence of formal equations.

I am frequently reminded of a student project presentation with a finding of student athletes were exaggerating their study hours to impress their coaches.  The student athletes reported studying ten hours per week.  When I ask if the class thought ten hours of study every week was a lot for a full-time student, the class replied yes.  I then explained that 15 credits should be more like 30 hours of study per week and watched the discussion among these seniors who asserted that no one studied that much, probably not even the nursing study cult.  I didn't have the heart to tell these social science majors that engineering students back in my day considered any week of under sixty hours to be a light week.

I continue to be amused about people trying to be impressive by exaggerating up to only a third of the necessary time and then wondering why their jobs after college required a lot of work for very little money.  If only they had worked harder in college and mastered the material in their majors to then be able to do harder work that paid better because so few people can do the hard part outside the classroom.

Many topics regarding humans are worth studying.  However, that means doing the hard work of studying instead of writing up wishful thinking as solutions to hard problems.  Math doesn't have to be involved, but ignoring all the science or even the good literature regarding how human tend to act in groups is not intellectually valuable, even if people woth the same titles are doing something valuable.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on January 06, 2021, 10:57:36 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 04, 2021, 06:31:26 PM

I am always amused when people want to defend their parts of academia without a leg on which to stand.  For example, asserting that one lightweight area is just as rigorous as another lightweight area doesn't help the case.

I'm not against the humanities or intellectuals in general, but it gets old to have assertions of general value when the general examples don't support that case.  Watching some parts of the fora who can't/won't/don't do their jobs by their own stories and questions while asserting that they can't/won't/don't other types of jobs actively undermines any assertion that the humanities have more intrinsic value than other endeavors.  And that's before we get to the complexities of modern life that requires being proficient at technology and algorithmic thinking, even in the absence of formal equations.

I am unclear on what this means, but I guess it's aimed at me, since I am in the humanities. So saying that the humanities are rigorous and/or worthwhile by saying that other humanities are rigorous and/or worthwhile is specious?  And I am unclear on how I am not doing my own job. Basically the whole argument is unclear to me. Maybe I've missed some basic assumptions propounded on some other thread. I'm still going to insist that the humanities are worthwhile. For those who would argue that they're worthless, I'd suggest that if you ever read fiction, watch films (fiction or documentaries), or TV, or listen to music, you're casting a vote in favor of the value of the humanities. "But I like the basic stuff, I just think people who study it are nonsensical," you may say. Of course everyone thinks they're right. I believe it's a social science, not a humanity, that studies the way that people who think they're right often aren't.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 07, 2021, 05:36:58 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on January 06, 2021, 10:57:36 PM

I'm still going to insist that the humanities are worthwhile. For those who would argue that they're worthless, I'd suggest that if you ever read fiction, watch films (fiction or documentaries), or TV, or listen to music, you're casting a vote in favor of the value of the humanities. "But I like the basic stuff, I just think people who study it are nonsensical," you may say. Of course everyone thinks they're right. I believe it's a social science, not a humanity, that studies the way that people who think they're right often aren't.

I never say the humanities are useless. However, there is a difference between how STEM folks and humanities folks talk about each other. STEM people never say that critical thinking and communication aren't valuable. In fact, what they say is that anyone seriously studying any discipline should develop those. On the other hand, humanities people often imply that they have some sort of corner on the market for those things, and that quantitative skills aren't really necessary for ordinary people.

A student who works hard should be able to benefit a lot from any discipline. For the students who aren't motivated or industrious, their time and effort will be better spent on developing some sort of practical skills, which may not even involve any higher education.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 07, 2021, 06:12:10 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 07, 2021, 05:36:58 AM

[. . .]

A student who works hard should be able to benefit a lot from any discipline.


I'm seeing fewer and fewer students willing or able to work hard. Given the financial dependence on tuition and auxiliary revenue of many sub-elite colleges and universities, this characteristic has become less important over time for admission and retention.

Quote

For the students who aren't motivated or industrious, their time and effort will be better spent on developing some sort of practical skills, which may not even involve any higher education.


Unfortunately many occupations that involve "practical skills" still require motivation, industriousness, and a significant amount of specialized knowledge even if they don't require a college degree. I'm not going to hire any old schmuck off the street to rewire my house or work on my furnace, much less set up a secure LAN for my business. So again, high school graduates who think simply sitting in college classrooms for eight semesters will result in a career with a six-figure starting salary are also probably not the kind of people willing to make the necessary effort for a "practical skills" career.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on January 07, 2021, 10:01:15 AM
Quote from: spork on January 07, 2021, 06:12:10 AM
Unfortunately many occupations that involve "practical skills" still require motivation, industriousness, and a significant amount of specialized knowledge even if they don't require a college degree. I'm not going to hire any old schmuck off the street to rewire my house or work on my furnace, much less set up a secure LAN for my business. So again, high school graduates who think simply sitting in college classrooms for eight semesters will result in a career with a six-figure starting salary are also probably not the kind of people willing to make the necessary effort for a "practical skills" career.

That goes to show another way in which academia's problems go deeper than anything specifically to do with academia.  Those qualities of motivation and industriousness seem to be in awfully short supply in our society now.  That's one reason why, although I believe strongly that there should be more public investment in higher education to reduce the crushing cost of it to students, I'd stop short of making it free to all like K-12 education.  If students don't have to pay something for it--or have not demonstrated, for scholarship purposes, some kind of exceptional promise, however we define that--then universal free college will only swamp our colleges with still more un-motivated, non-industrious students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on January 07, 2021, 01:50:15 PM
Philander Smith College, an HCBU in Little Rock, has announced that they will be laying off 15 faculty and 7 staff, and leaving 29 other positions unfilled. 


https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/jan/07/lr-college-sees-enrollment-fall-lays-off-22/?latest


They only had 185 faculty and staff to start with.  They're running a deficit of over $3 million.  Enrollment is down to 804, from 996 in fall of 2019.  That's a decline of almost 20%.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: AmLitHist on January 12, 2021, 10:50:45 AM
I don't know how my place is staying off this Dire Straits list.  Our enrollment for spring is down 16% district wide; my campus is down 37%. (Yet the chancellor got a 3-year extension with a fat raise--over $300K/year--despite enrollment going down every year he's been here.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 14, 2021, 10:52:39 AM
Paywalled but worth reading if you have access -- Nathan Grawe discusses the accelerated drop in fertility that is going to crush no-name schools in the U.S. Northeast and Midwest:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/how-to-navigate-the-demographic-cliff (https://www.chronicle.com/article/how-to-navigate-the-demographic-cliff).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on January 14, 2021, 11:08:43 AM
Quote from: spork on January 14, 2021, 10:52:39 AM
Paywalled but worth reading if you have access -- Nathan Grawe discusses the accelerated drop in fertility that is going to crush no-name schools in the U.S. Northeast and Midwest:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/how-to-navigate-the-demographic-cliff (https://www.chronicle.com/article/how-to-navigate-the-demographic-cliff).

The elite will do fine is one unsurprising message.

They talk quite a bit about remedies, and one is to better recruit and serve segments of the population who would benefit from college but do not currently attend. That is both an enrollment opportunity for  the colleges and a benefit to society. However it is not also a revenue opportunity for the colleges. The article does not address where the money will come from to educate these students; it won't be tuition.

The author is optimistic that colleges can make the mission shift because of the tremendous unexpected agility the have shown in response to Covid. Again, the money part seems to be elided. Agility in short-term survival is one thing. Financial sustainability is another. Most colleges, whether looking good or terrible at this moment, are hemorrhaging money in order to survive the crisis. That model will not translate to college health in responding to the coming demographic changes.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Cheerful on January 14, 2021, 12:09:07 PM
Quote from: Hibush on January 14, 2021, 11:08:43 AM
They talk quite a bit about remedies, and one is to better recruit and serve segments of the population who would benefit from college but do not currently attend. That is both an enrollment opportunity for  the colleges and a benefit to society.

I didn't read the article.  Which segments and how would they and society benefit from the students going to college and getting (bachelor's?) degrees?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on January 14, 2021, 06:25:12 PM
Quote from: Cheerful on January 14, 2021, 12:09:07 PM
Quote from: Hibush on January 14, 2021, 11:08:43 AM
They talk quite a bit about remedies, and one is to better recruit and serve segments of the population who would benefit from college but do not currently attend. That is both an enrollment opportunity for  the colleges and a benefit to society.

I didn't read the article.  Which segments and how would they and society benefit from the students going to college and getting (bachelor's?) degrees?

Communities with low college-completion among adults tend also to have low enough family incomes that college is both a financial and a social challenge. But there are nevertheless young people in those communities who are prepared for the educational challenges of college and will actually contribute more to society and do better for themselves than if they did not.

I realize that there are efforts to send young people--from all parts of society--who are not prepared for college to attend anyway. That is not what I'm referring to.

There are also highly successful efforts to prevent lower-income people from having opportunities to advance, which leads to the excessive financial disparity in the US. They work in part by promulgating the idea that a college education is always wasted on students from low-income families, and that a college education is solely a private rather than societal good. I oppose that effort as deeply immoral.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on January 14, 2021, 06:43:51 PM
QuoteThere are also highly successful efforts to prevent lower-income people from having opportunities to advance ... .

Hard to believe. My impression is the opposite. Any examples?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 15, 2021, 04:20:09 AM
Quote from: dismalist on January 14, 2021, 06:43:51 PM
QuoteThere are also highly successful efforts to prevent lower-income people from having opportunities to advance ... .

Hard to believe. My impression is the opposite. Any examples?

Further to that, is anyone arguing that scholarships* are a bad idea?

*Since scholarships enable academically-capable low income people to attend, then that would be necessary to "prevent lower-income people from having opportunities to advance".
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: research_prof on January 15, 2021, 05:43:31 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 15, 2021, 04:20:09 AM
Quote from: dismalist on January 14, 2021, 06:43:51 PM
QuoteThere are also highly successful efforts to prevent lower-income people from having opportunities to advance ... .

Hard to believe. My impression is the opposite. Any examples?

Further to that, is anyone arguing that scholarships* are a bad idea?

*Since scholarships enable academically-capable low income people to attend, then that would be necessary to "prevent lower-income people from having opportunities to advance".

The real question is not whether scholarships are bad, but how many low-income people are out there that would like to attend a university but cannot attend a university without a scholarship and how many scholarships are available. For example, there are folks out there that believe university is a waste of time and that profs are liberals that have never worked an entire day in their life. If you take a look at the comments posted on certain news outlets, I am sure you will find comments like that. So, I do not believe folks like that might be interested in a scholarship even if they were offered one.

And just to answer my own question: My personal sense is the number of scholarships is still considerable lower than the pool of interested applicants.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 15, 2021, 05:52:38 AM
Quote from: research_prof on January 15, 2021, 05:43:31 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 15, 2021, 04:20:09 AM
Quote from: dismalist on January 14, 2021, 06:43:51 PM
QuoteThere are also highly successful efforts to prevent lower-income people from having opportunities to advance ... .

Hard to believe. My impression is the opposite. Any examples?

Further to that, is anyone arguing that scholarships* are a bad idea?

*Since scholarships enable academically-capable low income people to attend, then that would be necessary to "prevent lower-income people from having opportunities to advance".

The real question is not whether scholarships are bad, but how many low-income people are out there that would like to attend a university but cannot attend a university without a scholarship and how many scholarships are available. Because there are folks out there that believe university is a waste of time and that profs are liberals that have never worked an entire day in their life. If you take a look at the comments posted on certain news outlets, I am sure you will find comments like that.

How many "would like to attend" is not the same as how many "are academically capable of attending". Even setting a very low bar for "scholarships", they should be limited to people who have a high probability of success. Anyone who has taught first year students will know that there are many, even among those NOT from low income homes, that are not prepared.

And since the original claim was that people were actually victims of "efforts to prevent" them from attending, that's a lot more intentional than merely the existence of fewer scholarships than might be desired.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: research_prof on January 15, 2021, 06:01:08 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 15, 2021, 05:52:38 AM
Quote from: research_prof on January 15, 2021, 05:43:31 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 15, 2021, 04:20:09 AM
Quote from: dismalist on January 14, 2021, 06:43:51 PM
QuoteThere are also highly successful efforts to prevent lower-income people from having opportunities to advance ... .

Hard to believe. My impression is the opposite. Any examples?

Further to that, is anyone arguing that scholarships* are a bad idea?

*Since scholarships enable academically-capable low income people to attend, then that would be necessary to "prevent lower-income people from having opportunities to advance".

The real question is not whether scholarships are bad, but how many low-income people are out there that would like to attend a university but cannot attend a university without a scholarship and how many scholarships are available. Because there are folks out there that believe university is a waste of time and that profs are liberals that have never worked an entire day in their life. If you take a look at the comments posted on certain news outlets, I am sure you will find comments like that.

How many "would like to attend" is not the same as how many "are academically capable of attending". Even setting a very low bar for "scholarships", they should be limited to people who have a high probability of success. Anyone who has taught first year students will know that there are many, even among those NOT from low income homes, that are not prepared.

And since the original claim was that people were actually victims of "efforts to prevent" them from attending, that's a lot more intentional than merely the existence of fewer scholarships than might be desired.

My opinion again is we should not be focusing on whether one is academically prepared, but rather if they will be willing to learn and work hard. Why depriving someone willing to work hard and learn of an opportunity because they might be unprepared?

I have seen people that were unprepared to become successful and catch up in major ways. The most notable example is my first PhD student: he comes from a relatively good undergrad school in his country, but other than that, he did not have any major credentials.

Did this guy on paper look academically unprepared for a PhD program? For sure--senior faculty were telling me not to admit him.
However, this guy during his first year has learned so much. Combined with the fact that he is very smart and hard-working, he has all the skills that a first/second year PhD student at a top-tier university might have.

I gave him a chance and he took it and now he is thriving.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 15, 2021, 07:53:12 AM
Quote from: research_prof on January 15, 2021, 06:01:08 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 15, 2021, 05:52:38 AM
Quote from: research_prof on January 15, 2021, 05:43:31 AM

How many "would like to attend" is not the same as how many "are academically capable of attending". Even setting a very low bar for "scholarships", they should be limited to people who have a high probability of success. Anyone who has taught first year students will know that there are many, even among those NOT from low income homes, that are not prepared.

And since the original claim was that people were actually victims of "efforts to prevent" them from attending, that's a lot more intentional than merely the existence of fewer scholarships than might be desired.

My opinion again is we should not be focusing on whether one is academically prepared, but rather if they will be willing to learn and work hard. Why depriving someone willing to work hard and learn of an opportunity because they might be unprepared?


Willingness to work hard is part of preparedness. Most of the first year students who fail do so by lack of effort rather than lack of ability. Even from poor schools, it should be possible to identify which students put in effort to learn, and which simply do the bare minimum.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on January 18, 2021, 11:07:26 AM
Update (https://theithacan.org/news/ic-releases-draft-proposal-for-faculty-and-program-cuts/) on Ithaca College: 116 FTE instructional positions to be cut (but not from tenured and tenure-stream faculty), along with the closure of 26 departments, majors, and programs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on January 18, 2021, 12:27:55 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 18, 2021, 11:07:26 AM
Update (https://theithacan.org/news/ic-releases-draft-proposal-for-faculty-and-program-cuts/) on Ithaca College: 116 FTE instructional positions to be cut (but not from tenured and tenure-stream faculty), along with the closure of 26 departments, majors, and programs.

Quite an interesting mix there. 

This is a school with unusual strengths in music and in broadcasting, tying in business, advertising and sports. If you want to make money in popular culture, it seems like an prime place.

The article reads like a table, so I made one to simplify interpretation of two years.








CollegeAY19-20AY21-22% loss
Hum & Sci247222 25
Health10287 15
Music8766 24
Communications  8053 34
Business4027 33

The MMus in Suzuki performance teaching is apparently a goner. Are there still a lot of precocious violinists in need of that?

The Department of Leisure Studies is gone. Have fun with that one, but it is a serious department.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 18, 2021, 12:34:26 PM
Quote from: Hibush on January 18, 2021, 12:27:55 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 18, 2021, 11:07:26 AM
Update (https://theithacan.org/news/ic-releases-draft-proposal-for-faculty-and-program-cuts/) on Ithaca College: 116 FTE instructional positions to be cut (but not from tenured and tenure-stream faculty), along with the closure of 26 departments, majors, and programs.

Quite an interesting mix there. 

This is a school with unusual strengths in music and in broadcasting, tying in business, advertising and sports. If you want to make money in popular culture, it seems like an prime place.

The article reads like a table, so I made one to simplify interpretation of two years.








CollegeAY19-20AY21-22% loss
Hum & Sci247222 25
Health10287 15
Music8766 24
Communications  8053 34
Business4027 33

The MMus in Suzuki performance teaching is apparently a goner. Are there still a lot of precocious violinists in need of that?

The Department of Leisure Studies is gone. Have fun with that one, but it is a serious department.

:)


One interesting quote from the article:
Quote
In October 2020, Cornish announced that approximately 130 FTE faculty positions were going to be eliminated at the college, that tenured faculty were at risk and that entire departments and programs could be eliminated. Cornish has said this decision aligns with the strategic plan Ithaca Forever, which had to be accelerated because of the COVID-19 pandemic's effects on the college's finances.

"had to be accelerated" suggests, as in many cases, that the problems were there pre-covid and the pandemic has mainly ripped off the band-aid.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on January 18, 2021, 02:05:24 PM
Quote from: Hibush on January 18, 2021, 12:27:55 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 18, 2021, 11:07:26 AM
Update (https://theithacan.org/news/ic-releases-draft-proposal-for-faculty-and-program-cuts/) on Ithaca College: 116 FTE instructional positions to be cut (but not from tenured and tenure-stream faculty), along with the closure of 26 departments, majors, and programs.

Quite an interesting mix there. 

This is a school with unusual strengths in music and in broadcasting, tying in business, advertising and sports. If you want to make money in popular culture, it seems like an prime place.

The article reads like a table, so I made one to simplify interpretation of two years.








CollegeAY19-20AY21-22% loss
Hum & Sci247222 25
Health10287 15
Music8766 24
Communications  8053 34
Business4027 33

The MMus in Suzuki performance teaching is apparently a goner. Are there still a lot of precocious violinists in need of that?

The Department of Leisure Studies is gone. Have fun with that one, but it is a serious department.

Darn. I was hoping to get a degree in Leisure Studies, when I retired.

There are still a lot of violinists in need of Suzuki music lessons, due mostly to hyper-competitive parents who have over-estimated their child's talents. A masters degree specifically for something so niche as early childhood violin lessons was probably an attempt to be the king of a niche.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on January 18, 2021, 02:47:18 PM
QuoteThe MMus in Suzuki performance teaching is apparently a goner. Are there still a lot of precocious violinists in need of that?

The Department of Leisure Studies is gone. Have fun with that one, but it is a serious department.

Sigh.

No, the original value of Suzuki was the fact that they took children's smaller sizes into account and created the possibility for them to learn on instruments that didn't dwarf them or make it impossible for them to play well-written pieces until they were so much older that they could handle a "full-sized" instrument.

They also approached music theory in innovative ways for children, allowing them to "get" certain concepts in an additive fashion when they were still too young to understand the more multiplicative structures of chords, keys, etc. that require further mental development for full absorption.

I use adapted elements of their teaching forms for my youngest music students and they are much more able to work ahead than the students I work with who've been formed in some other system. 

it's about accessibility. It's unfortunate that it's been leveraged into something else, but the basics of their systems are pedagogically well-developed, and it does take a level of teacher training that is different, often, than the ways players who want to become teachers have been brought up. Other music conservatories' youth programs also teach it, of course, but having a program rooted in a music school where Music Ed. crossovers could occur was important.

As for Leisure Studies, that has been a serious and growing field tied to healthcare and personal wellness as well as for atheletic self-care and teaching development. One of the original people with that degree sits on the board of the non-profit I've worked for for several years, and she is no slouch, philosophically, historically, pedagogically, or theologically.

One thrust has been the effort to offer alternative modes of working for individuals who are consistently stressed in their daily lives because of their work requirements, and to provide a psychological space from which to address the pressures and high burnout various careers can impose, especially those which involve personal caregiving.

Jest if you will, but those are worthwhile areas of study and will be a loss overall.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on January 18, 2021, 03:36:26 PM
Quote from: mamselle on January 18, 2021, 02:47:18 PM
QuoteThe MMus in Suzuki performance teaching is apparently a goner. Are there still a lot of precocious violinists in need of that?

The Department of Leisure Studies is gone. Have fun with that one, but it is a serious department.

Sigh.

No, the original value of Suzuki was the fact that they took children's smaller sizes into account and created the possibility for them to learn on instruments that didn't dwarf them or make it impossible for them to play well-written pieces until they were so much older that they could handle a "full-sized" instrument.

They also approached music theory in innovative ways for children, allowing them to "get" certain concepts in an additive fashion when they were still too young to understand the more multiplicative structures of chords, keys, etc. that require further mental development for full absorption.

I use adapted elements of their teaching forms for my youngest music students and they are much more able to work ahead than the students I work with who've been formed in some other system. 

it's about accessibility. It's unfortunate that it's been leveraged into something else, but the basics of their systems are pedagogically well-developed, and it does take a level of teacher training that is different, often, than the ways players who want to become teachers have been brought up. Other music conservatories' youth programs also teach it, of course, but having a program rooted in a music school where Music Ed. crossovers could occur was important.

As for Leisure Studies, that has been a serious and growing field tied to healthcare and personal wellness as well as for atheletic self-care and teaching development. One of the original people with that degree sits on the board of the non-profit I've worked for for several years, and she is no slouch, philosophically, historically, pedagogically, or theologically.

One thrust has been the effort to offer alternative modes of working for individuals who are consistently stressed in their daily lives because of their work requirements, and to provide a psychological space from which to address the pressures and high burnout various careers can impose, especially those which involve personal caregiving.

Jest if you will, but those are worthwhile areas of study and will be a loss overall.

M.

That's how I remember Suzuki, when growing up. Suzuki violin lessons were offered to everyone, for free, in the neighborhood elementary school that I attended. It was accessibility on steroids. That public program got de-funded and crowded out in the curriculum to prioritize other things. Now, in that neighborhood school, you can only have Suzuki violin lessons if you can afford it. . . . <liveBait> but instead there is a "mall cop" security guard, metal detectors, security doors, administrators with nebulous roles, a whole lot of poverty in the neighborhood, a whole lot of social services hosted by the school to mitigate the poverty, and a police presence that only shows up to intimidate residents. </liveBait>

; ) 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on January 19, 2021, 01:30:00 AM
WRT the young childhood violin lessons, obviously they are valid (though that does perhaps beg the question of what instructors in such areas are supposed to, ethically, tell those hyper-competitive parents of less-than-talented young'uns, regarding the overall prospects of their children in said areas), but does someone planning on teaching something like this need a college degree?

As to 'leisure studies', is this something that is perhaps also overacademicized by offering a degree in it?  Sounds like 50 years ago people did this sort of thing without specific college training in it...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on January 19, 2021, 07:03:14 AM
Those of us who learned a fair bit about music theory, pedagogy, and history in our college degree courses would indeed reply, "Yes." My teaching of a one-octave scale to a 6-year-old is informed by the knowledge of the goals and techniques the student will require to perform a three-octave scalar passage in a Mozart concerto ten years later.

It's the difference between going to a bunch of Bible Studies and proclaiming yourself a theologian, vs. taking a formative degree at an ATS-approved theological seminary and passing your GOE's (General Ordination Exams).

Contextualization, rigorous literature reviews, and an understanding of human physiology and psychology in Leisure Studies, likewise, could hardly be considered frivolous scholastic work. (There may indeed be programs at "sports schools""--like good old OSU, my own alma mater--that offer this topic, 'lite,' as a gut course for athletes in need of easy credits, but that is not where the study and publication efforts in the field are directed.)

If you read Joseph Pieper's 1948 work, "Leisure, the Basis of Culture," or check out instructional programs at schools like Gordon-Conwell, they're well-explicated and well-grounded. This site also offers insights from the specifically theological side of Sabbath/Sunday observance among interfaith/Abrahamic communities:

   Www.ldausa.org

The academic I mentioned above is among their e-magazine's contributors. See:

  http://ldausa.org/about/sunday-magazine/

    "Rest Theology," p. 11, Spring 2020
   and
      "What Happened to Leisure?," p. 12, Spring, 2017 (this outlines a history of the study program itself)

as well as, of course, J. Heschel's "The Sabbath, Its Meaning for Modern Man" (1951). And this is a serious topic among millennials and younger groups, including the 'nones,' as well: while it has theological--even ritual--dimensions, it is considered an area of ethical study worth more attention on its own merits. 

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on January 19, 2021, 07:44:11 AM
Quote from: Hibush on January 18, 2021, 12:27:55 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 18, 2021, 11:07:26 AM
Update (https://theithacan.org/news/ic-releases-draft-proposal-for-faculty-and-program-cuts/) on Ithaca College: 116 FTE instructional positions to be cut (but not from tenured and tenure-stream faculty), along with the closure of 26 departments, majors, and programs.

Quite an interesting mix there. 

This is a school with unusual strengths in music and in broadcasting, tying in business, advertising and sports. If you want to make money in popular culture, it seems like an prime place.

The article reads like a table, so I made one to simplify interpretation of two years.








CollegeAY19-20AY21-22% loss
Hum & Sci247222 25
Health10287 15
Music8766 24
Communications  8053 34
Business4027 33

The MMus in Suzuki performance teaching is apparently a goner. Are there still a lot of precocious violinists in need of that?

The Department of Leisure Studies is gone. Have fun with that one, but it is a serious department.

At least it appears to be a thought-out strategic plan for managed decline in an institution that is losing students, and not a set of desperate reactive cuts.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: AmLitHist on January 19, 2021, 03:12:00 PM
A colleague in my discipline at another campus is retiring in May.  I told her that I'm jealous (as I'll likely need to work til I'm 90 and/or drop over in the classroom), but I'm also happy for her.  She said that at least 5-6 in her department, maybe more, are very likely to take the early buyout that's almost assuredly coming within the next year-18 months.  That's good news for me:  even as I probably can't afford to take it (not old enough for Medicare until 2026 and can't afford the insurance), there are also 2, possibly 3 in my own department (and likely a few more on the other two campuses) who will retire if/when the offer comes.  That helps me in terms of both job security and also scheduling preference, which I currently don't always get, as right now I'm more or less in the middle of the pack.

I'm actually fortunate this spring:  one virtual lecture class, with 3 filled online load classes, plus one overload with the strong possibility that I'll pick up another one (maybe two) second-8 weeks online sections is an OK place to be.  Lots of my FT colleagues who don't teach online have been given load made up of live virtual sections with only 5-8 students in each.  I can only imagine what kind of grief they'll get from admin, if/when things go back to normal:  those low student counts are probably going to be held over their heads for a long time and used to pressure them into more service and such.

Overall, these days I'm veering wildly between happy/optimistic and barely able to get out of bed and log in to the LMS.  That's a function of a lot of things, but money and job security worries are a big part of it. I just have to keep reminding myself that I have a job and insurance, mostly full classes, and the ability to pick up any late-added online overload.  I can't control the rest of it and need to just keep my head down, do my work, and let it go.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 20, 2021, 06:27:22 AM
Quote from: mamselle on January 18, 2021, 02:47:18 PM
Jest if you will, but those are worthwhile areas of study and will be a loss overall.

<sigh>

They are only a loss in the big picture if the college is cutting areas in which people were beating down the doors to enroll at that college for those areas.  Discontinuing programs that are already all but dead at a given institution is not a comment on the general value of the human knowledge area, but is merely an acknowledgement of how people in the region have already voted with their time, energy, and money for something else.  People who are eager to study those things still have options in the world and even within a few hours drive of Ithaca.  Promoting a handful of very healthy programs over having many zombie programs is a huge benefit to the students enrolled in the worthy programs.

I can't remember any programs on this extended thread that were true losses in terms of closing programs that had healthy enrollment.  Instead, I remember a lot of angst over the general value of the human knowledge area regarding officially declaring dead specific programs that were objectively zombies for years before the death declaration.  Apparently, people would rather have the appearance of value over actual value while spreading resources so thin that programs that could have survived are instead starved into submission as well.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 20, 2021, 06:47:30 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 20, 2021, 06:27:22 AM
Discontinuing programs that are already all but dead at a given institution is not a comment on the general value of the human knowledge area, but is merely an acknowledgement of how people in the region have already voted with their time, energy, and money for something else.  People who are eager to study those things still have options in the world and even within a few hours drive of Ithaca.  Promoting a handful of very healthy programs over having many zombie programs is a huge benefit to the students enrolled in the worthy programs.

One of the programs in our department that got closed a few years ago was quite innovative and of good quality. It was sad to see it go. Two courses I teach were part of that program. However, since that program ended, there are more students taking my two courses as electives than were taking them as requirements of that program.*

So, if people perceive value in studying something, there are lots of ways they can do it that are not economically difficult for the institution. (Since the enrollment for my elective courses is high enough, they pay for themselves, so they're not in danger of being cancelled.)

*So now there are fewer students getting the depth that they would have with the program that got cancelled, but more students getting a foundation in the area than did before.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on January 22, 2021, 07:01:19 AM
Back to the thread topic...

This school's geology department (discussed above, somewhere among all the verbiage) has responded to calls for its dismantling by re-vamping their program.

   https://www.sciencemag.org/careers/2021/01/my-university-plans-terminate-my-department-we-re-trying-save-it

A good response? Too little, too late? What say the geologists here? (Do we have any left?--or have they given up in favor of nice, easily-read rock strata?)

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on January 22, 2021, 07:16:13 AM
Quote from: mamselle on January 22, 2021, 07:01:19 AM
Back to the thread topic...

This school's geology department (discussed above, somewhere among all the verbiage) has responded to calls for its dismantling by re-vamping their program.

   https://www.sciencemag.org/careers/2021/01/my-university-plans-terminate-my-department-we-re-trying-save-it

A good response? Too little, too late? What say the geologists here? (Do we have any left?--or have they given up in favor of nice, easily-read rock strata?)

M.

One thing that I notice is the absence of any data to support the intuition that students need the geosciences of today. I understand the impulse. Frankly, what do they have to lose by trying this, except opportunity cost? But it reads like a desperation move rather than something designed with partners in mind, or with any market research.

While reading it, however, I was reminded of a conversation with my own Dean about six months ago, in which it was suggested that we should consider a program overhaul as well. There's little enthusiasm for that project, but I'm wondering if I should find out if there's more behind it than I know.

Hmmmm.

dc
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on January 22, 2021, 08:15:07 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on January 22, 2021, 07:16:13 AM
Quote from: mamselle on January 22, 2021, 07:01:19 AM
Back to the thread topic...

This school's geology department (discussed above, somewhere among all the verbiage) has responded to calls for its dismantling by re-vamping their program.

   https://www.sciencemag.org/careers/2021/01/my-university-plans-terminate-my-department-we-re-trying-save-it

A good response? Too little, too late? What say the geologists here? (Do we have any left?--or have they given up in favor of nice, easily-read rock strata?)

M.

One thing that I notice is the absence of any data to support the intuition that students need the geosciences of today. I understand the impulse. Frankly, what do they have to lose by trying this, except opportunity cost? But it reads like a desperation move rather than something designed with partners in mind, or with any market research.

While reading it, however, I was reminded of a conversation with my own Dean about six months ago, in which it was suggested that we should consider a program overhaul as well. There's little enthusiasm for that project, but I'm wondering if I should find out if there's more behind it than I know.

Hmmmm.

dc

I understand the lack of enthusiasm.  By nature I love nothing better than to settle into a routine and stay there.  But the world just doesn't let any of us do that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 22, 2021, 08:32:48 AM
Quote from: mamselle on January 22, 2021, 07:01:19 AM
Back to the thread topic...

This school's geology department (discussed above, somewhere among all the verbiage) has responded to calls for its dismantling by re-vamping their program.

   https://www.sciencemag.org/careers/2021/01/my-university-plans-terminate-my-department-we-re-trying-save-it

A good response? Too little, too late?


From the article:
Quote
Three years ago, the same dean had asked us for help. His budget was in the red because enrollments were falling and a new budget system had moved money out of his college. The geology department had a few large, popular courses, but many of our upper-level classes were highly specialized, attracting only a handful of students. Fewer than 10 students a year majored in geology. We needed larger class sizes and more students to enroll as majors, the dean told us.

We ended up making changes only around the edges. We added new elective courses on climate, medical geology, and extraterrestrial life, which attracted hundreds of students—many from other departments. But we didn't change the course requirements for geology majors, and many professors continued to teach the same material in the same way. The number of majors didn't budge.

It's good to read the writing on the wall, rather than just admiring the penmanship.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on January 22, 2021, 09:57:17 AM
I was recently at a seminar focused on understanding our university budget and where the sources of revenue come from. The person leading the session had broken down the math from student tuition and come to the calculation that every full time faculty needed to teach 300 students per year in order to "pay for themselves".
   Now I laughed at that number, as I frequently teach 300+ students per semester. But it made me wonder how many faculty, and how many entire departments, don't make this bar? How many don't even come close?
     I also wonder if the Geology department in question was given this kind of number so they understood the type and depth of change that needed to happen.  Not just you need to recruit more students, but how many more it would take?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on January 22, 2021, 10:21:07 AM
Quote from: mamselle on January 22, 2021, 07:01:19 AM
Back to the thread topic...
This school's geology department (discussed above, somewhere among all the verbiage) has responded to calls for its dismantling by re-vamping their program.
   https://www.sciencemag.org/careers/2021/01/my-university-plans-terminate-my-department-we-re-trying-save-it
A good response? Too little, too late? What say the geologists here? (Do we have any left?--or have they given up in favor of nice, easily-read rock strata?)
The article feels completely detached from job market.
E.g. example of revamping from article: We'd rethink all of our courses from scratch, focusing on problems that students—and their potential employers—care about. For instance, instead of simply teaching how rocks crack and weather away, we'd explore how those cracks affect the movement of polluted groundwater.
- currently groundwater is mentioned in a description of a single all-encompassing seminar course in Geology Department
- meanwhile their own Civil Engineering Department already has a course with all entry-level practical things about groundwater (hydraulics, well characteristics, aquifers, and use of numerical methods), which is probably just enough for their local market

I currently see three possible scenarios ensuring well-being of a geology department anywhere
- being in densely populated area with few competitors (but even their current 10 majors per year is probably an overkill in a state with 600k people)
- having a captive local market providing demand (e.g. multiple offices of mining companies nearby)
- being world-class in one or more subject areas with employment opportunities for undergrads (e.g. petroleum / hard rock mining / geophysics / groundwater etc)
They are 30 years late for building the last scenario with their entire faculty being classic geologists.

Quote from: mythbuster on January 22, 2021, 09:57:17 AM
   Now I laughed at that number, as I frequently teach 300+ students per semester. But it made me wonder how many faculty, and how many entire departments, don't make this bar? How many don't even come close?
Overhead from research grants can change this calculation a lot.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 22, 2021, 10:27:21 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on January 22, 2021, 09:57:17 AM
I was recently at a seminar focused on understanding our university budget and where the sources of revenue come from. The person leading the session had broken down the math from student tuition and come to the calculation that every full time faculty needed to teach 300 students per year in order to "pay for themselves".
   Now I laughed at that number, as I frequently teach 300+ students per semester. But it made me wonder how many faculty, and how many entire departments, don't make this bar? How many don't even come close?
     I also wonder if the Geology department in question was given this kind of number so they understood the type and depth of change that needed to happen.  Not just you need to recruit more students, but how many more it would take?

One problem is that people think they can solve the problem by having a few huge service courses. Especially if they are electives, then even though a single course may have 1000 students, it's just siphoning off students from other possible electives. The reall payoff is increased enrollment in required courses which respresents long term improvement.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on January 22, 2021, 10:28:26 AM
William Paterson: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/01/22/nj-university-could-cut-26-full-time-faculty-amid-budget-woes
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on January 22, 2021, 10:30:23 AM
There's possibly an economic side to this, too, at least locally.

VT has had huge mining operations since the 18th c. at least, possibly late 17th; whether those continue to be profitable or competitive could be at issue: mica was later important for heat insulation in ovens and toasters, but is it, still?

Marble there is very sugary in texture, and erodes quickly, so it's no longer popular for memorials as it once was.

Other stuff in the mountains might be useful, but you'd truly have to know geology to figure out where to look for it.

Another case of applied vs. pure sciences, maybe.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on January 22, 2021, 12:27:36 PM
Quote from: mamselle on January 22, 2021, 10:30:23 AM
VT has had huge mining operations since the 18th c. at least, possibly late 17th...
There is nothing even medium-sized by modern standards.

Quote from: mamselle on January 22, 2021, 10:30:23 AM
Another case of applied vs. pure sciences, maybe.
Its more about changing how industries operate. It used to take way more miners to produce a metric ton of coal. The same is true for geologists.
Mining companies used to be smaller and with more need for on-site geologists to provide operational support creating local demand for classic geologists. Nowadays, it is much easier to quickly get specialised help and many tasks can be done site unseen. So, this concentrates jobs near head offices. Additionally, many routine tasks are being automatised (e.g. I am aware of successful use of machine learning for core logging). Even more complicated tasks are much easier now (e.g. building 3D model from thousands of logs can be done in a matter of hours in simpler cases).
Large companies can select from much larger pool of candidates increasing competition (though being next to offices offering internships still helps tremendously).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on January 22, 2021, 12:57:41 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on January 22, 2021, 10:28:26 AM
William Paterson: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/01/22/nj-university-could-cut-26-full-time-faculty-amid-budget-woes

As much as a quarter of their full-time faculty gone in one fell swoop!  Those are some extreme cuts.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 22, 2021, 01:47:36 PM
Quote from: apl68 on January 22, 2021, 12:57:41 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on January 22, 2021, 10:28:26 AM
William Paterson: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/01/22/nj-university-could-cut-26-full-time-faculty-amid-budget-woes

As much as a quarter of their full-time faculty gone in one fell swoop!  Those are some extreme cuts.

As is typically the case:
Quote
Administrators at the university are facing a budget deficit as the COVID-19 pandemic exacerbates pre-existing enrollment challenges, said Stuart Goldstein, William Paterson's vice president for marketing and public relations, according to NJ.com.

With apologies to Billy Joel, "[covid] didn't start the fire...."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on January 22, 2021, 02:18:59 PM
William Paterson just did this in Spring 2019: https://www.wpunj.edu/reslife/prospective-students/our-residence-halls/skyline-hall
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: brixton on January 22, 2021, 02:45:32 PM
Did The College of St. Rose in Albany make it to the thread?  I went back to see and couldn't find it.  They are cutting a boat load of programs/TT jobs.  One wonders what the end game is here.


CUTS:

Undergraduate programs:
Art
1. Design Media Arts (BS)
2. Graphic Design (BFA)
3. Studio Art (BFA)
4. Studio Art (BS)

Music
5. Music (BA)
6. Music Performance (BM)
7. Music Education K-12 (BS)

Mathematics
8. Mathematics (BA)
9. Mathematics: Adolescence Education (BS and BS/MSED in Special Education)

Science and Technology
10. Biology-Cytotechnology (BS)
11. Biology: Adolescence Education (BS and BS/MSED in Special Education)
12. Chemistry (BS)
13. Medical Technology (BS)
14. Information Technology (BS and BS/MS)

Business
15. Financial Planning (BS and BS/MBA)
16. Business Economics (BS)

Concentrations
Business Administration: Financial Planning Concentration
Business Administration: Accounting and Audit Concentration

Master's degrees:
Education
1. Higher Ed Leadership and Administration (MSED)
2. College Student Services Administration (MSED)
3. Literacy grade 5-12 (MSED)
4. Literacy birth-12 grade (MSED)

Business and Technology
5. Business Analytics (MS)
6. Information Technology (MS)

Advanced certificates
1. Financial Planning Advanced Certificate
2. Literacy birth-grade 12 Advanced Certificate
3. Quality Control in Higher Education Advanced Certificate
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on January 22, 2021, 02:53:18 PM
Is there anything left?

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on January 22, 2021, 03:11:04 PM
Quote from: mamselle on January 22, 2021, 02:53:18 PM
Is there anything left?

M.

Well they don't mention cutting history or modern languages, but something tells me that's probably because those are probably already gone.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 22, 2021, 03:30:01 PM
College of Saint Rose had negative net revenue for every fiscal year from 2014 to 2019 except for 2018. I suspect Saint Rose was also in deficit for FY 2020 and will be in deficit for FY 2021.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on January 23, 2021, 06:48:07 AM
Quote from: brixton on January 22, 2021, 02:45:32 PM
Did The College of St. Rose in Albany make it to the thread?  I went back to see and couldn't find it.  They are cutting a boat load of programs/TT jobs.  One wonders what the end game is here.

They came up in that they cut 14 tenured faculty in 2015, and also last year in how they could possibly compete for chem majors with superior and cheaper options in the same town.

In this list I notice accounting and auditing. Given the amount of fiscal mismanagement by organizations public and private in the greater Albany area, this major should be in high demand and be valuable for society. OTOH, accounting faculty are among the most expensive.

In terms of end game, I think spork is marveling that they still exist despite all the evidence that they should have closed. Is the end game going to be a real-estate transaction?

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on January 24, 2021, 02:58:47 PM

More data for the data lovers.
https://www.highereddatastories.com/2021/01/private-college-and-university-tuition.html

This is a deep dive on discount rates, enrollment, and net tuition trends for different types of institutions. Scroll to the middle of the page to see the nice graphics.

There is also a single institution drop down option that has a ton of data for three year increments.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 24, 2021, 04:38:24 PM
Jon Boeckenstedt does very good work.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 29, 2021, 05:40:26 AM
Concordia College NY is dead: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/01/29/concordia-college-new-york-will-close-summer-iona-college-purchase-campus (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/01/29/concordia-college-new-york-will-close-summer-iona-college-purchase-campus).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 29, 2021, 07:24:50 AM
The problem with undergrad geology in general is similar to the problem with undergrad physics in general: the basic knowledge alone is insufficient, especially when the curriculum at the tiny program is little changed from 30 years ago.  The divide isn't pure versus applied science as mamselle suggests; that's the difference between science and engineering and we do need both.

A good current undergrad program will have internships, coops, undergrad research opportunities, etc. as an integral part of the curriculum for everyone enrolled.  The programs will have good relationships with international companies as part of their pipelines.  For example, the New Mexico Tech geosciences department is small, but the main players in geoscience knowledge recruit and hire their students.  People who know hire from the handful of peer programs and usually the novices with whom their company has been working or others in the professional network who can recommend experienced individuals.

Having a degree in the relevant field without the relevant experience is worse for initial career prospects in the field than having a less related degree, but more experience in a relevant business/site/lab setting.  Mere academic education loses to experience every time, especially in crowded fields where many people will have related enough degrees and related enough experience.

One way the tiny programs in science do a disservice to their students is focusing on textbooks and formal instruction without the experience in working ill-defined problems where no one knows the answers and teamwork is the only path forward.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on January 29, 2021, 07:25:15 AM
Quote from: spork on January 29, 2021, 05:40:26 AM
Concordia College NY is dead: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/01/29/concordia-college-new-york-will-close-summer-iona-college-purchase-campus (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/01/29/concordia-college-new-york-will-close-summer-iona-college-purchase-campus).

At least they are shutting it down in an orderly manner, and not leaving students in the lurch.

I had never realized that Concordia was a kind of "brand name" for Lutheran schools around the country.  There were 10 at the beginning of the last decade.  Now there are only six.  Wonder whether they can preserve those?

This quote puzzled me a bit:

"Concordia's student body is 42 percent white, 17 percent Hispanic or Latino, 11 percent Black or African American and 5 percent Asian, according to the National Center for Education Statistics."


So...what are the other 25% of their students?  Are the other 25% just not there?  That would help to explain why they're closing....
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 29, 2021, 07:41:28 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 29, 2021, 07:25:15 AM

This quote puzzled me a bit:

"Concordia's student body is 42 percent white, 17 percent Hispanic or Latino, 11 percent Black or African American and 5 percent Asian, according to the National Center for Education Statistics."


So...what are the other 25% of their students?  Are the other 25% just not there?  That would help to explain why they're closing....

Maybe just not interested in identity politics at all, so not "identifying" as anything?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: namazu on January 29, 2021, 07:46:24 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 29, 2021, 07:41:28 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 29, 2021, 07:25:15 AM

This quote puzzled me a bit:

"Concordia's student body is 42 percent white, 17 percent Hispanic or Latino, 11 percent Black or African American and 5 percent Asian, according to the National Center for Education Statistics."


So...what are the other 25% of their students?  Are the other 25% just not there?  That would help to explain why they're closing....

Maybe just not interested in identity politics at all, so not "identifying" as anything?
International students aren't counted in these stats.  I don't know if they make up a quarter of the student body at Concordia, though.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 29, 2021, 07:53:57 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 20, 2021, 06:47:30 AM
So, if people perceive value in studying something, there are lots of ways they can do it that are not economically difficult for the institution. (Since the enrollment for my elective courses is high enough, they pay for themselves, so they're not in danger of being cancelled.)

Those classes don't pay for themselves if they are not bringing additional enrollment to the institution.  The huge gen ed courses mentioned upthread are irrelevant to the enrollment side of revenue calculations.

Students choose colleges based on various factors including major, location, amenities, mission, and money out of pocket.  A student may choose a S(mall)LAC for class size or a S(elective)LAC for the true liberal arts experience of 1/3 major, 1/3 gen ed, and 1/3 free electives.  However, within rounding of no one enrolls in a given place as a full-time, degree-seeking student for one or two specific courses taught by contingent faculty. 

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/01/19/petition-calls-stanford-reverse-cuts-cantonese-language-program comes immediately to mind as an example of the thinking that ignores the reality of enrollment.  31 people per term taking a low-credit conversational elective is not driving enrollment in the Stanford East Asian studies department.  The assertion that students were picking Stanford in part because of Cantonese courses only matters if Stanford is short on other highly qualified applicants and there's somewhere else offering plenty of relevant seats (unlikely with under 300 people total taking Cantonese courses in the US each year).

A given institution may be losing out on students by having too few interesting electives and no popular majors to regional comprehensive with a bigger variety of majors, courses, and amenities, but the big draw for full-time, degree-seeking enrollees isn't any one gen ed course, even if the university has Stephen King teaching a writing course or Yo-Yo Ma teaching music appreciation.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 29, 2021, 08:05:32 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 29, 2021, 07:25:15 AM
I had never realized that Concordia was a kind of "brand name" for Lutheran schools around the country.  There were 10 at the beginning of the last decade.  Now there are only six.  Wonder whether they can preserve those?

Where do you get six?  https://lutherancolleges.org/our-colleges/ lists 38 institutions.

Bethany College has had financial problems enough that my MIL asked me pointed questions as part of being an officer representative  to the national church conference.  In 2017, Bethany was on probation with the HLC for planning and institutional research along with concerns related to finances https://www.hlcommission.org/?option=com_directory&Action=ShowBasic&instid=1269 . I know individuals at Bethany College and have given them the red flags warnings suggesting they apply out.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: namazu on January 29, 2021, 08:11:42 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 29, 2021, 08:05:32 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 29, 2021, 07:25:15 AM
I had never realized that Concordia was a kind of "brand name" for Lutheran schools around the country.  There were 10 at the beginning of the last decade.  Now there are only six.  Wonder whether they can preserve those?

Where do you get six?  https://lutherancolleges.org/our-colleges/ lists 38 institutions.
I think apl68 is talking only about those called "Concordia".  But there are still 10 on that list.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 29, 2021, 08:33:56 AM
Quote from: namazu on January 29, 2021, 08:11:42 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 29, 2021, 08:05:32 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 29, 2021, 07:25:15 AM
I had never realized that Concordia was a kind of "brand name" for Lutheran schools around the country.  There were 10 at the beginning of the last decade.  Now there are only six.  Wonder whether they can preserve those?

Where do you get six?  https://lutherancolleges.org/our-colleges/ lists 38 institutions.
I think apl68 is talking only about those called "Concordia".  But there are still 10 on that list.

Ah.  Yeah, the franchises aren't all going to survive since that's not an enrollment-driving brand name, even within the Lutheran communities.

Several of the names on the list of 38 are good enough regional brand names, have an established mission, and aren't enrollment driven to the point that a few late payers endanger next week's payroll.  I expect them to survive.  I don't put Bethany College in the surviving category, but I do put Augusta IL and St. Olaf's College in the surviving category.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 29, 2021, 08:42:23 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 29, 2021, 07:53:57 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 20, 2021, 06:47:30 AM
So, if people perceive value in studying something, there are lots of ways they can do it that are not economically difficult for the institution. (Since the enrollment for my elective courses is high enough, they pay for themselves, so they're not in danger of being cancelled.)

Those classes don't pay for themselves if they are not bringing additional enrollment to the institution.  The huge gen ed courses mentioned upthread are irrelevant to the enrollment side of revenue calculations.


A given institution may be losing out on students by having too few interesting electives and no popular majors to regional comprehensive with a bigger variety of majors, courses, and amenities, but the big draw for full-time, degree-seeking enrollees isn't any one gen ed course, even if the university has Stephen King teaching a writing course or Yo-Yo Ma teaching music appreciation.

Yes, that's the context of my courses; as interesting electives for a major with lots of students. If an insitution had a reasonable number of English majors, being able to offer the Stephen King writing course would certainly help to solidify their appeal, especially if he would teach the course for the normal single course rate.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 29, 2021, 08:51:29 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 29, 2021, 08:42:23 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 29, 2021, 07:53:57 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 20, 2021, 06:47:30 AM
So, if people perceive value in studying something, there are lots of ways they can do it that are not economically difficult for the institution. (Since the enrollment for my elective courses is high enough, they pay for themselves, so they're not in danger of being cancelled.)

Those classes don't pay for themselves if they are not bringing additional enrollment to the institution.  The huge gen ed courses mentioned upthread are irrelevant to the enrollment side of revenue calculations.


A given institution may be losing out on students by having too few interesting electives and no popular majors to regional comprehensive with a bigger variety of majors, courses, and amenities, but the big draw for full-time, degree-seeking enrollees isn't any one gen ed course, even if the university has Stephen King teaching a writing course or Yo-Yo Ma teaching music appreciation.

Yes, that's the context of my courses; as interesting electives for a major with lots of students. If an insitution had a reasonable number of English majors, being able to offer the Stephen King writing course would certainly help to solidify their appeal, especially if he would teach the course for the normal single course rate.

The catch is already having a sufficient number of majors.  Electives mostly matter by their absence.  No or few electives is very bad.  However, what the specific electives are is usually not a driver for enrollment. 

The annual Stephen King workshop (capped at 15 students) alone is worthless in terms of attracting fulltime, enrolled majors.

The annual Stephen King workshop being on a list of 10- 20 such workshops offered every year a!omg with excellent fulltime faculty to have 20 great electives every term in a curriculum with room for electives may be a great program.  However, any one offering matters much less to overall student enrollment than the overall experience of being in a fabulous program.

Your electives, no matter how fabulous, are not driving enrollment of the relevant majors to your institution.  Those courses don't pay for themselves, but are worth running to contribute to the overall student experience.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 29, 2021, 09:55:49 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 29, 2021, 08:51:29 AM

The catch is already having a sufficient number of majors.  Electives mostly matter by their absence.  No or few electives is very bad.  However, what the specific electives are is usually not a driver for enrollment. 

The annual Stephen King workshop (capped at 15 students) alone is worthless in terms of attracting fulltime, enrolled majors.

The annual Stephen King workshop being on a list of 10- 20 such workshops offered every year a!omg with excellent fulltime faculty to have 20 great electives every term in a curriculum with room for electives may be a great program.  However, any one offering matters much less to overall student enrollment than the overall experience of being in a fabulous program.

Your electives, no matter how fabulous, are not driving enrollment of the relevant majors to your institution.  Those courses don't pay for themselves, but are worth running to contribute to the overall student experience.

I get your point, and it raises an interesting question: Is there some sort of metric that could be created to reflect the proportion of "freely chosen" electives to "method of execution" electives? (For instance, where a program requires students to take "two of A,B, and C" and B and C are each only offered in alternate years, the "choice" is a myth.) It would seem the *health of an institution (or even discipline) would be higher if the proportion of freely chosen electives is higher, even if the enrollment is the same. To put it another way, a place with lots of "forced choice" may decline much faster in bad times than a place with more unforced choice.

*or stability, perhaps?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 29, 2021, 10:37:29 AM
I don't really know what you're asking. The frequency with which a course is offered is in part determined by a university's total enrollment. With 20K students, the Pre-Corinthian Baskets 302 course that fulfills a requirement in the Basketweaving major can be offered every semester and it fills every time. With 2K students, it can be scheduled at most once every two years.

The small schools are too small to offer every academic major to all people; they end up doing almost all of them badly. And you end up with a curriculum (and instructional labor force) devoted to gen ed courses that don't attract new students and upper-level courses in majors that don't attract new students either.

Given the above, I would say a possible metric would be total undergraduate FTE divided by number of different majors offered in the curriculum. But making FTE/# majors increase still won't save no-name tiny schools in the rural/suburban Northeast and Midwest.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 29, 2021, 10:44:13 AM
Quote from: spork on January 29, 2021, 10:37:29 AM
I don't really know what you're asking. The frequency with which a course is offered is in part determined by a university's total enrollment. With 20K students, the Pre-Corinthian Baskets 302 course that fulfills a requirement in the Basketweaving major can be offered every semester and it fills every time. With 2K students, it can be scheduled at most once every two years.

The small schools are too small to offer every academic major to all people; they end up doing almost all of them badly. And you end up with a curriculum (and instructional labor force) devoted to gen ed courses that don't attract new students and upper-level courses in majors that don't attract new students either.

Given the above, I would say a possible metric would be total undergraduate FTE divided by number of different majors offered in the curriculum.

It's often been said on here that "box-checking" isn't a good thing. What I was trying to get at is that if there were two schools, one with lots of box-checking and the other with none, even if they had the same total enrollment and faculty size, the one without box-checking would probably be much more viable in the long run. I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to capture that difference objectively.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on January 29, 2021, 11:30:35 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 29, 2021, 10:44:13 AM

It's often been said on here that "box-checking" isn't a good thing. What I was trying to get at is that if there were two schools, one with lots of box-checking and the other with none, even if they had the same total enrollment and faculty size, the one without box-checking would probably be much more viable in the long run. I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to capture that difference objectively.

If one school is optimizing the things that the metrics are supposed to reflect, and another that is gaming the metrics themselves, how do you use those same metrics to determine which is which?

That is hard!

Still the tension between yield and net tuition is going to cause some useful signal about the value "new customers" see in the program.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 30, 2021, 07:52:42 AM
The big question isn't requirements versus free electives so much as student view of the necessity and value of the activities in a given institution.

Very few engineering programs have many free electives; it's just not a thing, unlike many humanities programs.  Thus, prospective engineering students who do their research won't be choosing based on variety of electives; those prospective students should be looking at opportunities and integration of co-ops, internships, undergrad research and similar activities beyond projects.

In contrast and problematic for the tiny colleges, prospective humanities students who do their research should be looking for a variety of small-section electives offered every term that include upper-division electives sufficient to specialize in an area.  Having only the gen ed electives and the "humanities" cohort upper-division requirements is not going to be a good experience. 

For perspective, some of these tiny LACs only have 10ish total humanities faculty to cover English and other languages, philosophy, history, and anything else.  Thus, each professor may only offer one elective every year in addition to required courses.  That means the handful of English majors end up taking all the required-for-other-majors  upper-division history and philosophy courses as many of their "free" electives because otherwise there aren't enough credits to take.  People are generally locked out of upper-division courses in other majors like organic chemistry because of the prerequisites. 

Thus, instead of being an English lit or history or philosophy major at a tiny LAC, one is a humanities major taking the courses offered this term.  The official major will still be English lit, but the experience definitely is not.  Therefore, the prospective student pool is a much smaller category of people than those wanting a good liberal arts education at a smaller college (1000-2000 Primarily Undergraduate Institution PUI) in a specific humanities major. 

Even the people who want a broad humanities education are often better served by a Great Books integrated curriculum like that at St. John's College over the random assortment pack of courses by individual faculty whim at the tiny LAC.  St.John's College graduates tend to go on to a solid middle-class life.  The random tiny LAC graduate may go back home to take the same job their HS peers took four years ago and most of a hundred thousand dollars ago.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on January 30, 2021, 07:58:27 AM
Henderson State University has been approved for a $1 million interest-free state loan to fix the roofs and HVAC systems in its buildings. 


https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2021/jan/30/1m-zero-interest-loan-okd-for-hsu-dip-seen-in/


Meanwhile they are still in the process of joining the Arkansas State University system.  ASU System President Chuck Welch speaks of "a multiyear turnaround plan."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 30, 2021, 08:21:00 AM
Quote from: Hibush on January 29, 2021, 11:30:35 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 29, 2021, 10:44:13 AM

It's often been said on here that "box-checking" isn't a good thing. What I was trying to get at is that if there were two schools, one with lots of box-checking and the other with none, even if they had the same total enrollment and faculty size, the one without box-checking would probably be much more viable in the long run. I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to capture that difference objectively.

If one school is optimizing the things that the metrics are supposed to reflect, and another that is gaming the metrics themselves, how do you use those same metrics to determine which is which?

That is hard!

Still the tension between yield and net tuition is going to cause some useful signal about the value "new customers" see in the program.

In addition to yield and net tuition, I would consider:

* Qualified applications versus planned slots.  A huge problem is having only approximately the same number of qualified applicants as number of new students needed.  That tends to result in heavy tuition discounting to get enough yield to matter for the room and board revenue stream.

* Percentage of qualified applicants to total applicants.  A huge problem is the poor reputation indicated by having a large percentage of the applicants not be college ready.  A 100% yield of people who will leave within the first three terms is not a win for the college.

* Percentage of transfer students to full-time, first-time students and how that aligns with current faculty staffing and revenue streams.  Having a lot of transfer students taking mostly expensive upper-division major courses instead of mostly first-year students taking cheaper gen ed courses can be a budget problem.  Having mostly commuter students living 10 minutes off campus is instead of mostly students in the dorm with meal plans can be a budget problem.

* Percentage of students who want a college degree as a business transaction versus students who want a college experience versus students who want a college education.  Being misaligned between faculty and students is problematic for retention on all sides and then for alumni fundraising.

* Percentage of the budget that is dependent on direct payments by individual students versus revenue streams outside tuition, fees, and room and board.  For example, facilities rentals, fundraising, grants, state appropriations, and endowments are all additional revenue streams that often are too small at tiny private colleges and even many regional comprehensive.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 30, 2021, 08:26:50 AM
In summary, focusing on the electives and gen ed part of the curriculum without knowing the budgetary aspects means being underinformed on the relevant issues.  Some programs have zero electives and are turning away applicants in droves.  Some programs have very flexible requirements and few takers because the overall value is perceived as low by people who would have to pay money, time, and effort.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 30, 2021, 08:35:54 AM
One more thought: the one Stephen King workshop can make real money for the college if the workshop is offered through an extension program.

$5k * 15 persons who would not otherwise be paying the college anything = $75k
$20k to Professor King
$5k in overhead expenses

gives $50k in new income to the college

A robust extension program open to the community with many starts per year and modest fees for modest workshops can bring a tidy sum that justifies the additional overhead expenses and administrative staff.

An adjunct teaching in the extension program is usually making money for the institution, even with a nice paycheck that usually is a solid fraction of the tuition each enrolled student pays for the course.

My employer spends about $5k for me per year to take short courses and workshops.  That's not even counting the employees who must maintain professional credits.  The adjunct helping maintain professional credits for current workers is also making money for the university.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pgher on January 30, 2021, 12:31:46 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 30, 2021, 07:52:42 AM
Very few engineering programs have many free electives; it's just not a thing, unlike many humanities programs.  Thus, prospective engineering students who do their research won't be choosing based on variety of electives; those prospective students should be looking at opportunities and integration of co-ops, internships, undergrad research and similar activities beyond projects.

I am an engineering professor. I have two kids in college, one in humanities at an Ivy and one in pre-med at a public R1. We looked at a bunch of different colleges of various kinds, and in the process I realized just how different an engineering program is from, well, everything else.

Where I teach, all of our engineering degrees are 128 hrs. Of that total, something like 100 are pretty well prescribed, either specific requirements or choose-N-of-M requirements. Even the humanities and social sciences are pretty well prescribed: English comp, choose-one-of-these history, that sort of thing. In my particular degree program, there are only 12 hours with basically total freedom. Based on my informal survey of other colleges, I think a similar structure is widespread in engineering.

So when I see people like Matt Reed over at IHE propose that all universities in a state agree on "the first two years," I don't know what that could even mean. If an engineering student were to fill their first two years with classes that would universally satisfy requirements in any degree program, they could not possibly graduate in less than five years total (due to pre-req sequences), and EVERY course they took after the first two years would be in-major or in adjacent fields (math or science).

I realize that my perspective is different from most people here. I appreciate hearing how other fields and institutions work. Just wanted to chime in so people understand that there are different ways to organize a degree program. These differences will impact student behavior at comprehensive universities that have both traditional arts & sciences programs and engineering programs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on January 30, 2021, 12:49:20 PM
Quote from: pgher on January 30, 2021, 12:31:46 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 30, 2021, 07:52:42 AM
Very few engineering programs have many free electives; it's just not a thing, unlike many humanities programs.  Thus, prospective engineering students who do their research won't be choosing based on variety of electives; those prospective students should be looking at opportunities and integration of co-ops, internships, undergrad research and similar activities beyond projects.

I am an engineering professor. I have two kids in college, one in humanities at an Ivy and one in pre-med at a public R1. We looked at a bunch of different colleges of various kinds, and in the process I realized just how different an engineering program is from, well, everything else.

Where I teach, all of our engineering degrees are 128 hrs. Of that total, something like 100 are pretty well prescribed, either specific requirements or choose-N-of-M requirements. Even the humanities and social sciences are pretty well prescribed: English comp, choose-one-of-these history, that sort of thing. In my particular degree program, there are only 12 hours with basically total freedom. Based on my informal survey of other colleges, I think a similar structure is widespread in engineering.

So when I see people like Matt Reed over at IHE propose that all universities in a state agree on "the first two years," I don't know what that could even mean. If an engineering student were to fill their first two years with classes that would universally satisfy requirements in any degree program, they could not possibly graduate in less than five years total (due to pre-req sequences), and EVERY course they took after the first two years would be in-major or in adjacent fields (math or science).

I realize that my perspective is different from most people here. I appreciate hearing how other fields and institutions work. Just wanted to chime in so people understand that there are different ways to organize a degree program. These differences will impact student behavior at comprehensive universities that have both traditional arts & sciences programs and engineering programs.

My state system tried "systemness". (Their word, not mine.) The idea wasn't that every kind of degree would be the same in the lower division. The idea was that the various kinds of programs would be exchangeable, and transferable. So, 2 years in any designated ENGR program would be the same, or would at least satisfy the same requirements.

In practice, it hasn't worked out perfectly. But it isn't fundamentally different than what we do in-house as a colege. We have 5 different ENGR programs, the curriculum for all of which are identical for the first two years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on January 30, 2021, 12:51:54 PM
Quote from: pgher on January 30, 2021, 12:31:46 PM


I am an engineering professor. I have two kids in college, one in humanities at an Ivy and one in pre-med at a public R1. We looked at a bunch of different colleges of various kinds, and in the process I realized just how different an engineering program is from, well, everything else.

So when I see people like Matt Reed over at IHE propose that all universities in a state agree on "the first two years," I don't know what that could even mean. If an engineering student were to fill their first two years with classes that would universally satisfy requirements in any degree program, they could not possibly graduate in less than five years total (due to pre-req sequences), and EVERY course they took after the first two years would be in-major or in adjacent fields (math or science).

I realize that my perspective is different from most people here. I appreciate hearing how other fields and institutions work. Just wanted to chime in so people understand that there are different ways to organize a degree program. These differences will impact student behavior at comprehensive universities that have both traditional arts & sciences programs and engineering programs.

Your kids' experience shows how important it is to have distinctive undergraduate programs. How much did they realize that they wanted different things from college? Clearly they had the chops to be pretty choosy about where to go.

Matt Reed is coming from the perspective of a CC administrator. One function of a CC is to provide the first two years of a four-year undergraduate program. That would be worlds easier if there were standardization among CCs and expectations by four-years. I can understand the desire. We all want our metaphorical ponies. The needs of too many others stand in the way, which means that feature cannot be optimized without compromising the whole system of undergrad education.

A higher ed system that can accommodate lots of needs is great for the country. The many ways of organizing a major has a lot of value for students. It also provides opportunity for colleges to figure out what they can do well. This thread features a lot of colleges who have trouble figuring that out.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on January 30, 2021, 01:16:36 PM
Quote from: pgher on January 30, 2021, 12:31:46 PM

So when I see people like Matt Reed over at IHE propose that all universities in a state agree on "the first two years," I don't know what that could even mean. If an engineering student were to fill their first two years with classes that would universally satisfy requirements in any degree program, they could not possibly graduate in less than five years total (due to pre-req sequences), and EVERY course they took after the first two years would be in-major or in adjacent fields (math or science).


It means that the high school system has totally failed. High school should be synonymous with "the education that everyone needs". Post-secondary education should be specific to individuals' goals.

(Just make high school go to grade 14 and be done with it, if that's what's needed.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on January 30, 2021, 01:21:06 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 30, 2021, 01:16:36 PM
Quote from: pgher on January 30, 2021, 12:31:46 PM

So when I see people like Matt Reed over at IHE propose that all universities in a state agree on "the first two years," I don't know what that could even mean. If an engineering student were to fill their first two years with classes that would universally satisfy requirements in any degree program, they could not possibly graduate in less than five years total (due to pre-req sequences), and EVERY course they took after the first two years would be in-major or in adjacent fields (math or science).


It means that the high school system has totally failed. High school should be synonymous with "the education that everyone needs". Post-secondary education should be specific to individuals' goals.

(Just make high school go to grade 14 and be done with it, if that's what's needed.)

Europe works differently. Ten years of general education for everyone, then vocational specialization. Or for the academic types, 13 years of general and academic education. Then, four years of specialized study.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pgher on January 30, 2021, 04:53:10 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on January 30, 2021, 12:49:20 PM
Quote from: pgher on January 30, 2021, 12:31:46 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 30, 2021, 07:52:42 AM
Very few engineering programs have many free electives; it's just not a thing, unlike many humanities programs.  Thus, prospective engineering students who do their research won't be choosing based on variety of electives; those prospective students should be looking at opportunities and integration of co-ops, internships, undergrad research and similar activities beyond projects.

I am an engineering professor. I have two kids in college, one in humanities at an Ivy and one in pre-med at a public R1. We looked at a bunch of different colleges of various kinds, and in the process I realized just how different an engineering program is from, well, everything else.

Where I teach, all of our engineering degrees are 128 hrs. Of that total, something like 100 are pretty well prescribed, either specific requirements or choose-N-of-M requirements. Even the humanities and social sciences are pretty well prescribed: English comp, choose-one-of-these history, that sort of thing. In my particular degree program, there are only 12 hours with basically total freedom. Based on my informal survey of other colleges, I think a similar structure is widespread in engineering.

So when I see people like Matt Reed over at IHE propose that all universities in a state agree on "the first two years," I don't know what that could even mean. If an engineering student were to fill their first two years with classes that would universally satisfy requirements in any degree program, they could not possibly graduate in less than five years total (due to pre-req sequences), and EVERY course they took after the first two years would be in-major or in adjacent fields (math or science).

I realize that my perspective is different from most people here. I appreciate hearing how other fields and institutions work. Just wanted to chime in so people understand that there are different ways to organize a degree program. These differences will impact student behavior at comprehensive universities that have both traditional arts & sciences programs and engineering programs.

My state system tried "systemness". (Their word, not mine.) The idea wasn't that every kind of degree would be the same in the lower division. The idea was that the various kinds of programs would be exchangeable, and transferable. So, 2 years in any designated ENGR program would be the same, or would at least satisfy the same requirements.

In practice, it hasn't worked out perfectly. But it isn't fundamentally different than what we do in-house as a colege. We have 5 different ENGR programs, the curriculum for all of which are identical for the first two years.

For a decade or more, all of our engineering programs had a shared first year and lots of similarities throughout the curriculum, thus reducing the cost of switching majors (in terms of credits lost). Over the past few years, those similarities have eroded, but freshman year is still pretty much uniform. Still much different from what either of my kids took.

Quote from: Hibush on January 30, 2021, 12:51:54 PM
Your kids' experience shows how important it is to have distinctive undergraduate programs. How much did they realize that they wanted different things from college? Clearly they had the chops to be pretty choosy about where to go.

Matt Reed is coming from the perspective of a CC administrator. One function of a CC is to provide the first two years of a four-year undergraduate program. That would be worlds easier if there were standardization among CCs and expectations by four-years. I can understand the desire. We all want our metaphorical ponies. The needs of too many others stand in the way, which means that feature cannot be optimized without compromising the whole system of undergrad education.

A higher ed system that can accommodate lots of needs is great for the country. The many ways of organizing a major has a lot of value for students. It also provides opportunity for colleges to figure out what they can do well. This thread features a lot of colleges who have trouble figuring that out.

Yes, my kids definitely did their homework, especially the first one. My main contribution was to let them take the lead. I had to realize that they are different from me, and from each other, and accept that I don't necessarily know that much more than any random parent when it comes to e.g. choosing a SLAC.

Campus visits were definitely important. In both cases, we visited a bunch of campuses to get the "feel" of them, plus to find out the real story behind the curricular offerings.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on January 31, 2021, 06:49:57 AM
Quote from: Hibush on January 30, 2021, 12:51:54 PM
Quote from: pgher on January 30, 2021, 12:31:46 PM


I am an engineering professor. I have two kids in college, one in humanities at an Ivy and one in pre-med at a public R1. We looked at a bunch of different colleges of various kinds, and in the process I realized just how different an engineering program is from, well, everything else.

So when I see people like Matt Reed over at IHE propose that all universities in a state agree on "the first two years," I don't know what that could even mean. If an engineering student were to fill their first two years with classes that would universally satisfy requirements in any degree program, they could not possibly graduate in less than five years total (due to pre-req sequences), and EVERY course they took after the first two years would be in-major or in adjacent fields (math or science).

I realize that my perspective is different from most people here. I appreciate hearing how other fields and institutions work. Just wanted to chime in so people understand that there are different ways to organize a degree program. These differences will impact student behavior at comprehensive universities that have both traditional arts & sciences programs and engineering programs.

Your kids' experience shows how important it is to have distinctive undergraduate programs. How much did they realize that they wanted different things from college? Clearly they had the chops to be pretty choosy about where to go.

Matt Reed is coming from the perspective of a CC administrator. One function of a CC is to provide the first two years of a four-year undergraduate program. That would be worlds easier if there were standardization among CCs and expectations by four-years. I can understand the desire. We all want our metaphorical ponies. The needs of too many others stand in the way, which means that feature cannot be optimized without compromising the whole system of undergrad education.

A higher ed system that can accommodate lots of needs is great for the country. The many ways of organizing a major has a lot of value for students. It also provides opportunity for colleges to figure out what they can do well. This thread features a lot of colleges who have trouble figuring that out.

Yes, and this was one of the reasons my state system tried to harmonize. (Too many students were being forced to retake too many courses when they transferred, even if they had completed an Associates' degree.)

During the process, it was actually the CCs were the ones who pushed back hardest on the pressure to totally homogenize. That's because they have other functions, too, which are not entirely compatible with functioning as transfer paths.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on January 31, 2021, 11:25:49 AM
One problem for many institutions in dire financial straits is thinking of their students as spending four years with the institution in a standard pattern under the control of the institution.

With about a third of recent college graduates attending multiple institutions before graduation, being transfer friendly is important for the non-elites. That means planning for a substantial fraction of students to transfer credits (a good articulation agreement with specific engineering programs can work at a CC) and then take mostly major courses.  Some institutions use a model that only admits upper-division students who can demonstrate specific skills.

With almost three-quarters of college students being non-traditional in some sense, non-elites should revisit their ideas of a typical student and see how those students are being served.  It can be fun to look at the actual demographics of current and prospective student pools and compare to the mission of the college as well as the reality of the college.  One way to end up with only 10 of the 30 full-time faculty being in arts, sciences, and humanities is hiring new faculty for the in-demand majors and not replacing the retiring arts, sciences, and humanities faculty.  However, then still selling a liberal arts education is off putting to the prospective students who would enroll for a small college experience as supportive of their complicated lives as well as the prospective students who want a real liberal arts experience on the residential campus filled with liberal arts majors with a lot of free time to play with ideas and read beyond the direct reading assignments.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 31, 2021, 04:47:32 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 31, 2021, 11:25:49 AM

[. . . ]

With almost three-quarters of college students being non-traditional in some sense, non-elites should revisit their ideas of a typical student and see how those students are being served.  It can be fun to look at the actual demographics of current and prospective student pools and compare to the mission of the college as well as the reality of the college. 

[. . .]

Why the frequently-employed business model that depends on auxiliary revenue from full-time residential students is stupid.

Partially related:

Mills College. In spring 2017, a financial stabilization plan was announced. After posting $700,000 in net revenue for FY 2017 (too early to be an effect of said plan), its net revenue was -$8.8 million in FY 2018 and -$6.7 million in FY 2019. Prior to FY 2017, it had negative net revenue for every year since the 2008 Great Recession. Its undergraduate FTE fell to 693 in FY 2019 from 961 in FY 2014. I suspect it is in even worse shape now because of the pandemic. Instruction has been online for this academic year; campus housing is limited to single occupancy rooms this semester. I don't know if any students lived on campus last semester. It is not generating its usual amount of auxiliary revenue, which pre-Covid was not even enough to balance the budget.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on January 31, 2021, 05:00:22 PM
QuoteMills College. In spring 2017, a financial stabilization plan was announced. After posting $700,000 in net revenue for FY 2017 (too early to be an effect of said plan), its net revenue was -$8.8 million in FY 2018 and -$6.7 million in FY 2019. Prior to FY 2017, it had negative net revenue for every year since the 2008 Great Recession. Its undergraduate FTE fell to 693 in FY 2019 from 961 in FY 2014.

I wonder who in hell is covering losses in the millions range for years. Is that eating up endowment [aprés moi le deluge], or borrowed [naive lenders], or fudged [embezzled]?

Many examples on this thread defy imagination. Just do a Chapter 7 voluntarily and be done with it before being forced to.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: onehappyunicorn on February 01, 2021, 09:04:33 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on January 31, 2021, 06:49:57 AM
Quote from: Hibush on January 30, 2021, 12:51:54 PM
Quote from: pgher on January 30, 2021, 12:31:46 PM


I am an engineering professor. I have two kids in college, one in humanities at an Ivy and one in pre-med at a public R1. We looked at a bunch of different colleges of various kinds, and in the process I realized just how different an engineering program is from, well, everything else.

So when I see people like Matt Reed over at IHE propose that all universities in a state agree on "the first two years," I don't know what that could even mean. If an engineering student were to fill their first two years with classes that would universally satisfy requirements in any degree program, they could not possibly graduate in less than five years total (due to pre-req sequences), and EVERY course they took after the first two years would be in-major or in adjacent fields (math or science).

I realize that my perspective is different from most people here. I appreciate hearing how other fields and institutions work. Just wanted to chime in so people understand that there are different ways to organize a degree program. These differences will impact student behavior at comprehensive universities that have both traditional arts & sciences programs and engineering programs.

Your kids' experience shows how important it is to have distinctive undergraduate programs. How much did they realize that they wanted different things from college? Clearly they had the chops to be pretty choosy about where to go.

Matt Reed is coming from the perspective of a CC administrator. One function of a CC is to provide the first two years of a four-year undergraduate program. That would be worlds easier if there were standardization among CCs and expectations by four-years. I can understand the desire. We all want our metaphorical ponies. The needs of too many others stand in the way, which means that feature cannot be optimized without compromising the whole system of undergrad education.

A higher ed system that can accommodate lots of needs is great for the country. The many ways of organizing a major has a lot of value for students. It also provides opportunity for colleges to figure out what they can do well. This thread features a lot of colleges who have trouble figuring that out.

Yes, and this was one of the reasons my state system tried to harmonize. (Too many students were being forced to retake too many courses when they transferred, even if they had completed an Associates' degree.)

During the process, it was actually the CCs were the ones who pushed back hardest on the pressure to totally homogenize. That's because they have other functions, too, which are not entirely compatible with functioning as transfer paths.

We have a universal articulation agreement for our program that covers the foundation courses of the degree and we have some bilateral articulation agreements in place with our major transfer partners. It took a lot of wrangling to get everyone together but so far it's going as smooth as I think we can reasonably expect. The CCs (I work at one) have been pretty on-board, the transfer usually works out as a 2+2.5 but we don't have the 2+3.5 or 2+4s that we had in the past. Rigor in the gen eds, particularly writing-intensive courses, trips up a lot of our transfer students when they hit the next level. It's hard to make up the severe lack of quality high school education, we try to hold the line in our lecture classes with varying degrees of success.
We do also exist to serve the community, so if grandma wants to take a painting class she can, but we teach all of our foundation courses as transfer regardless of student intent.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 01, 2021, 11:28:48 AM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on February 01, 2021, 09:04:33 AM
We have a universal articulation agreement for our program that covers the foundation courses of the degree and we have some bilateral articulation agreements in place with our major transfer partners.  ... The CCs (I work at one) have been pretty on-board, the transfer usually works out as a 2+2.5 but we don't have the 2+3.5 or 2+4s that we had in the past. ... It's hard to make up the severe lack of quality high school education, we try to hold the line in our lecture classes with varying degrees of success.

This sounds like a good approach for being indispensable to others, and maintain good will from local legislators who have financial influence.

One question regarding entering students whose writing (or other) skills are not strong enough for their ultimate schools: how common is 2.5 + 2?   That would allow more practice at the CC and better preparation when hitting the upper division majors' courses. It lowers the cost for the student as well.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: onehappyunicorn on February 01, 2021, 12:18:59 PM
Quote from: Hibush on February 01, 2021, 11:28:48 AM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on February 01, 2021, 09:04:33 AM
We have a universal articulation agreement for our program that covers the foundation courses of the degree and we have some bilateral articulation agreements in place with our major transfer partners.  ... The CCs (I work at one) have been pretty on-board, the transfer usually works out as a 2+2.5 but we don't have the 2+3.5 or 2+4s that we had in the past. ... It's hard to make up the severe lack of quality high school education, we try to hold the line in our lecture classes with varying degrees of success.

This sounds like a good approach for being indispensable to others, and maintain good will from local legislators who have financial influence.

One question regarding entering students whose writing (or other) skills are not strong enough for their ultimate schools: how common is 2.5 + 2?   That would allow more practice at the CC and better preparation when hitting the upper division majors' courses. It lowers the cost for the student as well.

The underlying threat back when we started all of this was either work something out or legislators would work it out for us. There were a lot of grumblings about students receiving financial aid to take and pass classes twice, some ugly words like "fraud" got bandied about.

Students are supposed to be assessed and assigned to remedial classes if they aren't up to college level but since that happens outside of our department we don't have a lot of say in that process. I, and the other instructors in our department, try to cajole and warn students as best we can. In our advising sheets and when we meet with students we try to convince them to attempt their math as soon as possible, for example, so they can know if they need additional time before transferring.

Once a student passes the first and second level english classes here there isn't a lot else to help them hone their skills that will count towards their degree. It's a difficult sell to tell them they need to wait and take an elective that won't transfer just so they are better prepared.

There used to be a tuition surcharge levied by the state that raised tuition at public institutions by 50 percent on students who were over by 10 percent or more the credits needed for their degree. I probably didn't express that right, as an example if a student needed 120 credits for their degree as soon as they hit over 132 credits in the system they were charged 1.5 times tuition. The idea was timely completion but it was a scalpel problem being solved with a sledgehammer, thankfully the surcharge was repealed. The sentiment is still there though so we see a lot of pressure to get students through in a timely manner.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 01, 2021, 01:26:02 PM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on February 01, 2021, 12:18:59 PM
Quote from: Hibush on February 01, 2021, 11:28:48 AM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on February 01, 2021, 09:04:33 AM
We have a universal articulation agreement for our program that covers the foundation courses of the degree and we have some bilateral articulation agreements in place with our major transfer partners.  ... The CCs (I work at one) have been pretty on-board, the transfer usually works out as a 2+2.5 but we don't have the 2+3.5 or 2+4s that we had in the past. ... It's hard to make up the severe lack of quality high school education, we try to hold the line in our lecture classes with varying degrees of success.

This sounds like a good approach for being indispensable to others, and maintain good will from local legislators who have financial influence.

One question regarding entering students whose writing (or other) skills are not strong enough for their ultimate schools: how common is 2.5 + 2?   That would allow more practice at the CC and better preparation when hitting the upper division majors' courses. It lowers the cost for the student as well.

The underlying threat back when we started all of this was either work something out or legislators would work it out for us. There were a lot of grumblings about students receiving financial aid to take and pass classes twice, some ugly words like "fraud" got bandied about.

Students are supposed to be assessed and assigned to remedial classes if they aren't up to college level but since that happens outside of our department we don't have a lot of say in that process. I, and the other instructors in our department, try to cajole and warn students as best we can. In our advising sheets and when we meet with students we try to convince them to attempt their math as soon as possible, for example, so they can know if they need additional time before transferring.

Once a student passes the first and second level english classes here there isn't a lot else to help them hone their skills that will count towards their degree. It's a difficult sell to tell them they need to wait and take an elective that won't transfer just so they are better prepared.

There used to be a tuition surcharge levied by the state that raised tuition at public institutions by 50 percent on students who were over by 10 percent or more the credits needed for their degree. I probably didn't express that right, as an example if a student needed 120 credits for their degree as soon as they hit over 132 credits in the system they were charged 1.5 times tuition. The idea was timely completion but it was a scalpel problem being solved with a sledgehammer, thankfully the surcharge was repealed. The sentiment is still there though so we see a lot of pressure to get students through in a timely manner.

This makes a good story. The work has been done so that you genuinely prepare students well so that they will succeed when the transfer. The threat to plunge the school into dire financial straits sound as if it is not as acute.

Good communication with legislators now is important, so that "fraud" is not the first thing that comes to mind when the hear of students who need extra attention. "Well-prepared" is a much better notion. Does your school good have people doing the appropriate outreach to frame your current format as the right way to get success?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Morden on February 01, 2021, 03:46:25 PM
Laurentian University in Canada. Public university filing for creditor protection because it is insolvent.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/laurentian-university-creditor-protection-1.5896522
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on February 01, 2021, 07:34:31 PM
Part of the community college problem when dealing with legislators is the legitimate question of why any students need remediation, particularly at college tuition rates.  After all, a high school diploma is supposed to indicate a level of proficiency in basic skills.  Paying for k-12 education, then remedial education at the CC, and than again for the same content and skills at the four-year institution seems like a waste of resources.  A good ten years of reform research for remedial education has not yet fixed the problem of people attending college, passing classes, burning through their federal financial aid, and yet still not accumulating college credit towards their degrees.

People aren't charged more for having "too many" credits in the federal financial aid programs, but changes in the past ten years related to adequate progress does mean people can run out of federal financial aid eligibility well before they finish that first degree.

In addition, one argument against gen ed requirements is paying for similar material and skills that clearly aren't sticking in some students.  That same argument of wasted resources on repeated material is harder to make on material that is clearly different because it's not taught to "everyone" in k-12.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on February 01, 2021, 09:52:04 PM
Quote from: Morden on February 01, 2021, 03:46:25 PM
Laurentian University in Canada. Public university filing for creditor protection because it is insolvent.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/laurentian-university-creditor-protection-1.5896522

I wonder how the rest of their federation is faring. I imagine NOSM is OK, but I have my doubts about Hearst and University of Sudbury.

I'm glad it's not dead, though.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 02, 2021, 05:02:59 AM
Quote from: Morden on February 01, 2021, 03:46:25 PM
Laurentian University in Canada. Public university filing for creditor protection because it is insolvent.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/laurentian-university-creditor-protection-1.5896522

History of headlines about Laurentian, where you can see the train wreck approaching:

Notice the faculty response to news of the approaching iceberg. Basically "Full speed ahead! Don't make us change course!!!"
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on February 02, 2021, 08:14:14 AM
A few years ago they were busy building a new building, and shifted a ton of classes (mostly sciences, IIRC) to trailers while they waited for construction to be complete.

I can't imagine that helped with recruitment, retention, or, indeed, their finances.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 02, 2021, 08:34:50 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 02, 2021, 08:14:14 AM
A few years ago they were busy building a new building, and shifted a ton of classes (mostly sciences, IIRC) to trailers while they waited for construction to be complete.

I can't imagine that helped with recruitment, retention, or, indeed, their finances.

I can't imagine these helped either:

Since contracts are typically for three years, if every contract negotiation leads to a strike or the brink of one, it's not going to be attractive to potential students or their parents, who don't want that kind of potential disruption to their education.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on February 02, 2021, 10:41:12 AM
Interestingly, Laurentian was accumulating problems on a growing market (pre-covid, at least).
Post-secondary enrollment in Canada was steadily going up (https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=3710001101 (https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=3710001101)). In contrast, in US it seems to have peaked around 2010-2011 and was trending down afterwards (https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cha.asp (https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cha.asp)).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Golazo on February 02, 2021, 12:57:36 PM
Quote from: apl68 on January 29, 2021, 07:25:15 AM

I had never realized that Concordia was a kind of "brand name" for Lutheran schools around the country.  There were 10 at the beginning of the last decade.  Now there are only six.  Wonder whether they can preserve those?

The Concordia system belongs to the Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod, a far more conservative body than the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (which despite the evangelical in its name is not very). Most of the better known Lutheran universities are affiliated with ELCA (ie St. Olaf). Both denominations are losing members at great rates.

The Concordia schools are similar to Wheaton(IL) and other such colleges that require their faculty to affirm Christianity and have a "teaching (conservative) Lutheran values) mission that I expect is going to be a challenge for most of them given demographic and religious trends.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 02, 2021, 02:52:07 PM
Quote from: Golazo on February 02, 2021, 12:57:36 PM
Quote from: apl68 on January 29, 2021, 07:25:15 AM

I had never realized that Concordia was a kind of "brand name" for Lutheran schools around the country.  There were 10 at the beginning of the last decade.  Now there are only six.  Wonder whether they can preserve those?

The Concordia system belongs to the Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod, a far more conservative body than the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (which despite the evangelical in its name is not very). Most of the better known Lutheran universities are affiliated with ELCA (ie St. Olaf). Both denominations are losing members at great rates.

The Concordia schools are similar to Wheaton(IL) and other such colleges that require their faculty to affirm Christianity and have a "teaching (conservative) Lutheran values) mission that I expect is going to be a challenge for most of them given demographic and religious trends.

I suspected that the Concordias were the creation of a particular Lutheran denomination.  I seem to recall somebody on the Fora speculating--perhaps after one of the earlier Concordia closings--that there just weren't enough Lutherans to keep all the schools running in some regions.  I wonder how much of their funding came from the church?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on February 02, 2021, 03:32:52 PM
Concordia (Moorhead MN) is an Evangelical Lutheran Church America affiliate. ELCA is really liberal, unlike the Missouri Synod, which is the parent of the Concordias that have been closing. Here is a link to ELCA affiliates, which include several financially troubled LACs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ELCA_colleges_and_universities
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on February 03, 2021, 06:43:56 AM
Details on Laurentian's financials:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-02/rbc-toronto-dominion-snared-in-canada-university-bankruptcy (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-02/rbc-toronto-dominion-snared-in-canada-university-bankruptcy)
"Laurentian had C$321.8 million in liabilities as of April 30, according to a report filed by the monitor in the case, Ernst & Young. "
Given single digit annual deficits reported in other articles this implies either:
a) they maintained those deficits for decades
b) they recently embarked on an unfunded spending spree (new building mentioned by Parasaurolophus?)

Both options suggest mismanagement by the administration. I am also wondering if letting it go bankrupt and establishing something new would be cheaper than bailing it out.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 03, 2021, 12:40:48 PM
Henderson State University's new leadership now expressing optimism for the long-term future--although in the short term enrollment is down 21% (11% if you allow for dropping concurrent enrollment students).  They now owe the state $7 million in zero-interest loans, with no plans at this time to take on more debt.



https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2021/feb/03/hsu-beginning-its-new-chapter-in-asu-system/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on February 03, 2021, 04:27:05 PM
Henderson State's new admin is not believing the data or are not yet in possession of the full picture.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on February 04, 2021, 07:12:02 AM
Because CC transfer was on this thread recently, https://www.reddit.com/r/Professors/comments/lbnu21/developmental_math_reform/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 04, 2021, 01:20:29 PM
A contrasting theme, for those who worry about the fate of the 0.1%.

A recent article (https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/new-national-american-elite) argues that an existential threat to regional elite colleges is the national homogenization of the super elite. This has crippled the value proposition of fancy regional schools, and turned a few once-local schools into the national magnets.

Quote from: Michael Lind, New America think tank
A few generations ago, it was assumed that the sons of the local gentry would remain in the area and rise to high office in local and state business, politics, and philanthropy—goals that were best served if they attended a local elite college and joined the right fraternity, rather than being educated in some other part of the country. College was about upper-class socialization, not learning, which is why parochial patricians favored regional colleges and universities.

While the regional elites are unlikely to end up on the lists we tend to review to find topics for this thread, it might be interesting to keep an eye out. Which ones are having trouble getting the full-pay local students who either feel compelled to go the the national school, or see less expensive local options as being equivalent in educational and social value?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on February 04, 2021, 01:36:44 PM
I just read the article to see what schools he considered to be the "regional elites". Never mentions any other than Harvard and Yale, and those are the clear example f national elites. So the grand point is. . . globalization happens?
   My undergrad alma mater is likely to be a prime example of this phenomenon. We have successfully moved from being a good regional private school, to being "The Harvard of our Region" to now being a globally known name, with a satellite campus in the Far East. With that movement, the other schools in the area have the opportunity (I guess?), to fill the niche left behind and take some of those local students that we passed over in favor of the international ones and the ones from far flung states.
   Still not quite clear on why this is a problem.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 04, 2021, 02:28:36 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on February 04, 2021, 01:36:44 PM
I just read the article to see what schools he considered to be the "regional elites". Never mentions any other than Harvard and Yale, and those are the clear example f national elites. So the grand point is. . . globalization happens?
   My undergrad alma mater is likely to be a prime example of this phenomenon. We have successfully moved from being a good regional private school, to being "The Harvard of our Region" to now being a globally known name, with a satellite campus in the Far East. With that movement, the other schools in the area have the opportunity (I guess?), to fill the niche left behind and take some of those local students that we passed over in favor of the international ones and the ones from far flung states.
   Still not quite clear on why this is a problem.

I wouldn't classify the effects on higher ed of shifting socioeconomic class structure in the USA as an huge immediate "problem," but (1) nationalization of the market for admission to super-elite universities and (2) increased economic inequality probably means a long-term decrease in the number of full-pay students attending the institutions that had in the past been the go-to class markers for the local/regional aristocratic families.

I'm thinking of the college food chain along the I-85 corridor to I-95 from Richmond to Washington, DC. Davidson College is probably well-insulated, given its reputation and its endowment of just under a billion dollars. But I can't think of another smallish liberal arts-style college in that region that might attract children of the super-rich in 2021.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 04, 2021, 07:35:23 PM
In that entire region you mention, especially if you also include the area between the eastern interstate highways and the mountains, probably of the privates, only Davidson and University of Richmond are safe. Probably a handful are not in immediate trouble, but don't quite have buffers like those schools. I'm sure in their heyday some were seen as local elites with basically everyone paying full price. Now, nobody does.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on February 04, 2021, 08:34:37 PM
'Concordia' is a take-off on Martin Luther's 'Book of Concord', still one of the main denominational underpinnings, at least in theory, of Lutheranism as a distinctive confession of Christianity.   That said, as noted, the ELCA is enormously liberal, and more or less only 'Lutheran' in historical/ ethnic senses.   It is thus unsurprising that such a denomination no longer sees widespread interest in a specifically denominational college education.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on February 06, 2021, 05:31:27 PM
You're mixing apples and kumquats, Kay, sorry to say....

The ELCA doesn't oversee the Concordia system, the more conservative Missouri Synod (which refused to join the 1970s era merger of the ELC and the LCA on the grounds that the new blended group did not agree that Jonah was literally swallowed by a whale..and other things) does.

There's also an even more conservative (essentially Germanic-language) Lutheran group that just merged its two seminaries a couple years ago.

Keeping track of the players in these things is mind-bending sometimes....

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 06, 2021, 05:37:16 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 04, 2021, 07:35:23 PM
In that entire region you mention, especially if you also include the area between the eastern interstate highways and the mountains, probably of the privates, only Davidson and University of Richmond are safe. Probably a handful are not in immediate trouble, but don't quite have buffers like those schools. I'm sure in their heyday some were seen as local elites with basically everyone paying full price. Now, nobody does.

What are the other schools that were the place for local gentry of Southeastern metropolises? Duke? Emory? UVA? 

How much are local full-pay students leaving them in favor of national prestige Harvard or local solid education NCSU/UGA/VaTech?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 06, 2021, 07:08:22 PM
Gosh, nobody is leaving Duke or Emory as far as I know.

They *are * leaving the small colleges  in the rural areas outside of the cities between DC and Atlanta.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 06, 2021, 09:31:46 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 06, 2021, 07:08:22 PM
Gosh, nobody is leaving Duke or Emory as far as I know.

They *are * leaving the small colleges  in the rural areas outside of the cities between DC and Atlanta.

I mean specifically the children of the aristocrats of Raleigh-Durham or Atlanta. Is it still de rigeur to go to those schools and then become a local civic and business leader?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on February 07, 2021, 07:11:51 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 06, 2021, 09:31:46 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 06, 2021, 07:08:22 PM
Gosh, nobody is leaving Duke or Emory as far as I know.

They *are * leaving the small colleges  in the rural areas outside of the cities between DC and Atlanta.

I mean specifically the children of the aristocrats of Raleigh-Durham or Atlanta. Is it still de rigeur to go to those schools and then become a local civic and business leader?

Any national name brand institution with real resources  like Duke or Emory is pretty safe, but an alumnus will be in a different set of circles than HYP alumni.

The places at risk are the institutions like Super Dinky was 40 years ago: a regional leader where the alumni network was strong and well represented on everything that matter in a 100-mile radius.  Now people with means will pick a bigger name on the national radar for the networking possibilities or pick somewhere to learn specific skills. 

The days of attending the good regionally-known private for the signalling effect and four years of networking are over.  The networking has to be on a larger scale as does the signalling effect.  Actually having the skills is important for the local businesses.  Having the contacts at the state and multistate level is more important than ever for the regional folks who understand the current situation and predictable future.  Anyone who is still focused on only the tri-county area is setting themselves up for failure.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on February 07, 2021, 07:20:49 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 04, 2021, 01:20:29 PM
A contrasting theme, for those who worry about the fate of the 0.1%.

A recent article (https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/new-national-american-elite) argues that an existential threat to regional elite colleges is the national homogenization of the super elite. This has crippled the value proposition of fancy regional schools, and turned a few once-local schools into the national magnets.

Quote from: Michael Lind, New America think tank
A few generations ago, it was assumed that the sons of the local gentry would remain in the area and rise to high office in local and state business, politics, and philanthropy—goals that were best served if they attended a local elite college and joined the right fraternity, rather than being educated in some other part of the country. College was about upper-class socialization, not learning, which is why parochial patricians favored regional colleges and universities.

While the regional elites are unlikely to end up on the lists we tend to review to find topics for this thread, it might be interesting to keep an eye out. Which ones are having trouble getting the full-pay local students who either feel compelled to go the the national school, or see less expensive local options as being equivalent in educational and social value?

This isn't the 0.1%; this is the 20% no longer being feeling limited to what's available within a hundred-mike radius.

That article is also dominated by an East Coast view of the US and completely ignores places where being white makes one obviously a newcomer whose family hasn't been leading in everything that matters for the past four hundred years.  The US isn't really the 13 colonies with some new additions, no matter how many times East Coast folks paint that narrative.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 07, 2021, 10:38:39 AM
Yes, there are many states where you go to a school in the state system, or you don't go to college (more or less, I know that's never 100% true). There isn't much discussion of SLACs at all, let alone elites and non-elites.

Also, California is more or less its own entity in this regard with a mammoth state system, plus a number of extremely highly regarded privates (some large, some smaller).

So, yeah, I say "pheh!" to the East Cost -centric view.

But, back to playing a long a bit, I don't think its so much that many students want to go out of a 100 mile radius, its:

1. there's a decreasing student population, and there just aren't enough in the low end or mushy middle to fill those low ranked tiny schools.

2. Of those who are willing to even consider tiny schools, they'd probably prefer to at least compete for, and maybe even get, a seat at one of the many state school branches that a lot of states have (especially the coasts, but not exclusive to them). A number of these branches might be, say, 200 miles from the applicant, but in the same state. So, yeah, they are more willing to go to a state branch far away than a tiny school that's more than 100 miles away.

3. Too many of the tiny schools either have a quirky mission, are too liberal arts oriented or some other thing (too bogged down by geography or bad history).

But, yes, the net effect is that fewer and fewer students are going to these tiny schools and more will close in the next decade or two (if it even takes that long).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 07, 2021, 12:46:41 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on February 07, 2021, 07:11:51 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 06, 2021, 09:31:46 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 06, 2021, 07:08:22 PM
Gosh, nobody is leaving Duke or Emory as far as I know.

They *are * leaving the small colleges  in the rural areas outside of the cities between DC and Atlanta.

I mean specifically the children of the aristocrats of Raleigh-Durham or Atlanta. Is it still de rigeur to go to those schools and then become a local civic and business leader?

Any national name brand institution with real resources  like Duke or Emory is pretty safe, but an alumnus will be in a different set of circles than HYP alumni.

The places at risk are the institutions like Super Dinky was 40 years ago: a regional leader where the alumni network was strong and well represented on everything that matter in a 100-mile radius.  Now people with means will pick a bigger name on the national radar for the networking possibilities or pick somewhere to learn specific skills. 

The days of attending the good regionally-known private for the signalling effect and four years of networking are over.  The networking has to be on a larger scale as does the signalling effect.  Actually having the skills is important for the local businesses.  Having the contacts at the state and multistate level is more important than ever for the regional folks who understand the current situation and predictable future.  Anyone who is still focused on only the tri-county area is setting themselves up for failure.

Though not exactly on the I-85 corridor that I originally mentioned, I'll throw out Hampden-Sydney College, oldest private college in the South, as an example. Alumni include bankers, judges, etc. My guess is that 150 years ago a diploma from Hampden-Sydney was a pretty strong signal of one's aristocratic pedigree in the area between Richmond and Roanoke.  Today, if a scion of an elite upper-class family living anywhere in Virginia gets into Hampden-Sydney, William and Mary, UVA, and Princeton, well, that 18-year old is not going to enroll at Hampden-Sydney. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 07, 2021, 01:00:16 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 07, 2021, 10:38:39 AM
Also, California is more or less its own entity in this regard with a mammoth state system, plus a number of extremely highly regarded privates (some large, some smaller).

So, yeah, I say "pheh!" to the East Cost -centric view.

This is so true. In many Western states, the towns are not old enough to have the kind of aristocracy that developed elsewhere.

Leland Stanford was a robber baron, titan of industry and governor of California. But there was no California school for him to have gone to to reach his own elite people. That kind of multigenerational patrician society didn't exactly exist for him to enter as a young man. He went to the trouble of founding a school for future Bay Area elites, but that didn't really get going until the 20th century.

If you look at the local politicians and non-tech industrialists in the South Bay, the University of Santa Clara stands out as being the place to go for a certain local elite. Stanford has gone on to become a national brand that the article describes as drawing the top students who would have gone to the regionals. Is that affecting the choice of aristo students coming out of San Jose, Los Gatos & Saratoga relative to 20 or 30 years ago?

Are the other California examples?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 07, 2021, 01:46:42 PM
Pomona (and others of the Claremont Colleges).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on February 07, 2021, 04:17:34 PM
I'm assuming that Pomona and almost all of the Annapolis Group draw 75-80% of their students from out of state?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on February 07, 2021, 05:36:59 PM
Quote from: Hibush on February 07, 2021, 01:00:16 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 07, 2021, 10:38:39 AM
Also, California is more or less its own entity in this regard with a mammoth state system, plus a number of extremely highly regarded privates (some large, some smaller).

So, yeah, I say "pheh!" to the East Cost -centric view.

This is so true. In many Western states, the towns are not old enough to have the kind of aristocracy that developed elsewhere.

Santa Fe, New Mexico has been continuously settled for longer than most of the East Coast.  Running for public office in New Mexico without mentioning how many generations one's family has been in New Mexico marks one as an outsider who will have trouble.  Even admitting to being first generation is better than ignoring the expectation of what makes a true New Mexican.  In Texas, the saying is "I wasn't born here, but I got here as soon as I could".

People who have degrees from East Coast or West Coast universities downplay them in public life.  It's much better to have gone to one of the regional comprehensives to show you are normal than to have an elite East Coast degree.  Being a Lobo, an Aggie, or a Techie is much better than going to HYP. 

The people running things here do not act like Bostonians, but there's definitely social strata and moving between them without following the rules is problematic.  The snooty academics who ignore regional differences in favor of assuming New England is always the desirable top will continue to have blind spots about how the US functions
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on February 07, 2021, 06:05:18 PM
I follow this thread closely.

While I sympathize with the concentration of posts on individual institutions, it is harder to swallow the last, say, dozen or so, contributions concerning regional patterns of preferences.

All this, if it exists or ever existed, is being competed away by lower transport costs [parking aside], or as someone upthread called it, globalization. Yes, some have students from China, if not county X.

Clearly, this is difficult for individuals working at vulnerable institutions, but it is not a problem for higher education in the US.

In addition, moreover, explaining the parts of a phenomenon is not an explanation of the whole phenomenon. Aristotle?

Compete, baby, compete.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 07, 2021, 07:25:36 PM
Spork,

From my knowledge of Virginia and other nearby southern colleges, I'd say your conclusion regarding Hamden-Sydney is probably correct, though they suffer from a particularly peculiar mission (all male). They have a decent endowment though. Anyway, there are a dozen or so similar schools between Roanoke and the ocean. Most of them suffer from similar problems, only one of them being lowering of local stature. Some of them probably only have a decade left. I doubt any of them have most of a century. But, hey, let's not pick on the south. Plenty of small colleges in PA, NY, etc. probably also won't be around in 2100 (and some not in 2030).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on February 07, 2021, 08:03:39 PM
Not a college for the eastern elite, but how's the University of Mississippi doing?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on February 07, 2021, 10:49:23 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 29, 2021, 08:05:32 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 29, 2021, 07:25:15 AM
I had never realized that Concordia was a kind of "brand name" for Lutheran schools around the country.  There were 10 at the beginning of the last decade.  Now there are only six.  Wonder whether they can preserve those?

Where do you get six?  https://lutherancolleges.org/our-colleges/ lists 38 institutions.

Bethany College has had financial problems enough that my MIL asked me pointed questions as part of being an officer representative  to the national church conference.  In 2017, Bethany was on probation with the HLC for planning and institutional research along with concerns related to finances https://www.hlcommission.org/?option=com_directory&Action=ShowBasic&instid=1269 . I know individuals at Bethany College and have given them the red flags warnings suggesting they apply out.

Bethany pays some incoming TT faculty around $38k. Hard to attract decent faculty at that rate.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on February 07, 2021, 11:08:32 PM
But Cost of Living is low, presumably with USA = 100:

Bethany cost of living is 77.4
           Bethany   West Virginia
Overall   77.4          78.1
Grocery   97.1           95.8
Health   97.5          106
Housing   47.4          41.7

Hell, housing is free!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on February 08, 2021, 05:45:08 AM
Update on Ithaca College: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/02/08/growing-resistance-against-cuts-ithaca?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=ba782277d9-DNU_2021_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-ba782277d9-236510958&mc_cid=ba782277d9&mc_eid=adf482cc60 (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/02/08/growing-resistance-against-cuts-ithaca?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=ba782277d9-DNU_2021_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-ba782277d9-236510958&mc_cid=ba782277d9&mc_eid=adf482cc60)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 08, 2021, 06:05:51 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on February 08, 2021, 05:45:08 AM
Update on Ithaca College: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/02/08/growing-resistance-against-cuts-ithaca?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=ba782277d9-DNU_2021_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-ba782277d9-236510958&mc_cid=ba782277d9&mc_eid=adf482cc60 (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/02/08/growing-resistance-against-cuts-ithaca?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=ba782277d9-DNU_2021_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-ba782277d9-236510958&mc_cid=ba782277d9&mc_eid=adf482cc60)

Interesting quotes from the article:
Quote
Ithaca has part-time adjuncts, many of whom are losing their one- or two-class-per-term assignments. Ithaca also has a core teaching staff of ranked, non-tenure-track professors working on multiyear contracts. Many of these professors were recruited through national searches and -- under the premise of steady employment -- became deeply involved in curriculum design, shared governance, service work and student activities.

Wouldn't these invite lawsuits if the contracts weren't over yet?

Quote
Some 37 professors have already self-identified as having been laid off. They include colloquium coordinators, those serving on diversity, equity and inclusion and strategic planning committees, a Model United Nations adviser, Faculty Council representatives, one involved in Jewish student life and anti-anti-Semitism initiatives, an adviser to Students for Justine in Palestine who led antiracism initiatives, and the director of nature and recreation programs.

First time I've heard such a term used.


As always, this wasn't out of the blue.
Quote
In October, Ithaca said that it planned to cut its full-time faculty ranks by 130, in a COVID-19-related acceleration of a five-year plan and an attempt to bring the student-faculty ratio to 12 to one from 10 to one.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on February 08, 2021, 07:21:24 AM

From the article  "linked the faculty cuts to Ithaca's previously stated desire to shrink its target student enrollment from 6,000 to 5,000."

Why is an institution trying to SHRINK its way into the coming demographic cliff?

Have they admitted very academically weak and/or very financially needy students, so they are instead trying to pivot to a "stronger" student body?

Or are they just contrarians. If every other school is trying to boost enrollments, why not pursue the opposite tack.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 08, 2021, 07:30:43 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on February 08, 2021, 07:21:24 AM

From the article  "linked the faculty cuts to Ithaca's previously stated desire to shrink its target student enrollment from 6,000 to 5,000."

Why is an institution trying to SHRINK its way into the coming demographic cliff?

Have they admitted very academically weak and/or very financially needy students, so they are instead trying to pivot to a "stronger" student body?

Or are they just contrarians. If every other school is trying to boost enrollments, why not pursue the opposite tack.

This would be my guess. If the student population is a Pareto distribution, the neediest 17% will use up a lot more than 17% of the resources. Additionally, if it makes some programs more competitive, (i.e. hard to get into, and so in greater demand), it could make those programs stronger in the long run.

I was also suprised by that goal.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 08, 2021, 07:41:20 AM
Schools are trying to boost enrollments from their lowest numbers, but most know they will never reach their high watermarks again unless they change the nature of their school
(higher ranked somehow, different mission, etc.). So Ithaca figured out that they will probably never reach 6000 (or not for a long time),  but if they've budgeted for that, then they are in big trouble. So, they were more or less squeezed into saying 5,000 is more realistic and publicly coming to terms with that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on February 08, 2021, 09:01:11 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on February 08, 2021, 07:21:24 AM

From the article  "linked the faculty cuts to Ithaca's previously stated desire to shrink its target student enrollment from 6,000 to 5,000."

Why is an institution trying to SHRINK its way into the coming demographic cliff?

Have they admitted very academically weak and/or very financially needy students, so they are instead trying to pivot to a "stronger" student body?

Or are they just contrarians. If every other school is trying to boost enrollments, why not pursue the opposite tack.

Or, they recognize that 5,000 is a sustainable number of students. That to go for 6,000 is more marketing expense and low-enrolled niche  programming that they can support.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on February 08, 2021, 09:52:33 AM
I read through a good chunk of the thread this weekend, and most of the discussion centered on LACs. How do the regional comprehensives cope with systemic enrollment declines that predated the pandemic?

Education and business aren't attracting students to the degree they used to, even though business programs tend to require internships and student teaching is required to get an education degree. My place needs to revamp its liberal arts curriculum. We have enough faculty to offer upper-division electives that are interesting, but no internship requirements for liberal arts degrees.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on February 08, 2021, 10:33:10 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on February 01, 2021, 07:34:31 PM
Part of the community college problem when dealing with legislators is the legitimate question of why any students need remediation, particularly at college tuition rates.  After all, a high school diploma is supposed to indicate a level of proficiency in basic skills.  Paying for k-12 education, then remedial education at the CC, and than again for the same content and skills at the four-year institution seems like a waste of resources.  A good ten years of reform research for remedial education has not yet fixed the problem of people attending college, passing classes, burning through their federal financial aid, and yet still not accumulating college credit towards their degrees.

People aren't charged more for having "too many" credits in the federal financial aid programs, but changes in the past ten years related to adequate progress does mean people can run out of federal financial aid eligibility well before they finish that first degree.

In addition, one argument against gen ed requirements is paying for similar material and skills that clearly aren't sticking in some students.  That same argument of wasted resources on repeated material is harder to make on material that is clearly different because it's not taught to "everyone" in k-12.

Some colleges now have a surcharge (could double the price per credit hour) on the third attempt or more. Haven't seen a surcharge for the second attempt, but did not look, either. Texas doesn't provide state funding for students enrolled in a class for the third time or more. That also hurts students as they max out earlier than they should.

As for Ithaca College faculty involved in anti-anti-Semitism, seems to be a counter to the BDS movement, right?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 08, 2021, 10:48:46 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on February 08, 2021, 09:01:11 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on February 08, 2021, 07:21:24 AM

From the article  "linked the faculty cuts to Ithaca's previously stated desire to shrink its target student enrollment from 6,000 to 5,000."

Why is an institution trying to SHRINK its way into the coming demographic cliff?

Have they admitted very academically weak and/or very financially needy students, so they are instead trying to pivot to a "stronger" student body?

Or are they just contrarians. If every other school is trying to boost enrollments, why not pursue the opposite tack.

Or, they recognize that 5,000 is a sustainable number of students. That to go for 6,000 is more marketing expense and low-enrolled niche  programming that they can support.

At any rate, they're trying to anticipate and manage enrollment decline, instead of hoping (or maybe just assuming) that it happens to somebody else.  It's probably a sensible strategy.  But it's going to have to come at the expense of somebody within their faculty community.  The ones facing the losses can't be expected to take it lying down.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 08, 2021, 11:32:07 AM
Ithaca College's FTE undergraduate enrollment has remained fairly stable at 6,000+ from FY 2007 through FY 2019. But a 1:10 faculty-student ratio is ridiculous. My guess is that there have been adjuncts and lecturers teaching the large intro survey courses with full-time faculty teaching tiny numbers of students in upper-level courses for majors that graduate single digit amounts of students each year. Probably the trustees and administration have taken a good look at demographic trends and has made the deliberate decision to downsize the organization, as others have commented.

Quote from: Mobius on February 08, 2021, 09:52:33 AM
I read through a good chunk of the thread this weekend, and most of the discussion centered on LACs. How do the regional comprehensives cope with systemic enrollment declines that predated the pandemic?


Assuming "regional comprehensives" refers to "public state system": a logical strategy is greater programmatic specialization by university. Instead of six different basketweaving studies departments at six different campuses, the major is offered at only one campus to generate economies of scale. This might delay or prevent the closure of campuses in a situation of over-capacity. But flailing about uselessly while the whole system is run into the ground is the more typical strategy. E.g., the PASSHE system.

Quote

Education and business aren't attracting students to the degree they used to, even though business programs tend to require internships and student teaching is required to get an education degree. My place needs to revamp its liberal arts curriculum. We have enough faculty to offer upper-division electives that are interesting, but no internship requirements for liberal arts degrees.

If I was in charge of the universe and could wave a magic wand, I would abolish my employer's education department. The returns aren't worth the opportunity cost. Occupational training for a low-paying career in a state with a decreasing number of children, difficulty retaining qualified faculty who are younger than 65, and practicum/student teaching placements require faculty to perform too many administrative duties in addition to teaching.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on February 08, 2021, 07:18:22 PM
Quote from: dismalist on February 07, 2021, 11:08:32 PM
But Cost of Living is low, presumably with USA = 100:

Bethany cost of living is 77.4
           Bethany   West Virginia
Overall   77.4          78.1
Grocery   97.1           95.8
Health   97.5          106
Housing   47.4          41.7

Hell, housing is free!

That's the wrong Bethany College.  The Bethany College under discussion is in Kansas.

However, I wouldn't be betting on either Bethany College being around in twenty years if I were in the market for a new faculty position.

In related discussion, anyone who thinks an institution can't get 100 applications for a TT humanities position with a listed salary of $35k + benefits for teaching even a 5/5 hasn't been paying attention.  You're not going to get a nurse, engineer, or CS person for that, but a trap for the wannabe LACs is you can get good humanities faculty for barely middle-class incomes and it feels like the college could survive if only the students would agree to those humanities majors.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 08, 2021, 07:26:36 PM
The sad thing is that you don't need to be nearly that bad to be on the bubble. The salaries can be 20K higher and the 
teaching load lighter.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on February 08, 2021, 07:29:09 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 08, 2021, 06:05:51 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on February 08, 2021, 05:45:08 AM
Update on Ithaca College: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/02/08/growing-resistance-against-cuts-ithaca?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=ba782277d9-DNU_2021_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-ba782277d9-236510958&mc_cid=ba782277d9&mc_eid=adf482cc60 (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/02/08/growing-resistance-against-cuts-ithaca?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=ba782277d9-DNU_2021_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-ba782277d9-236510958&mc_cid=ba782277d9&mc_eid=adf482cc60)

Interesting quotes from the article:
Quote
Ithaca has part-time adjuncts, many of whom are losing their one- or two-class-per-term assignments. Ithaca also has a core teaching staff of ranked, non-tenure-track professors working on multiyear contracts. Many of these professors were recruited through national searches and -- under the premise of steady employment -- became deeply involved in curriculum design, shared governance, service work and student activities.

Wouldn't these invite lawsuits if the contracts weren't over yet?

Depends on the exact wording of the contracts. 

A contract eligible to be renewed every year for five years is different from a true five-year contract.  Many term contracts (academic and otherwise) have contingency clauses related to changing financial and other conditions.

As many even TT folks found out in 2008, the university can non-renew and even cancel multi-year contracts when the contingency clauses kick in.  The letter of appointment usually doesn't have all the contingencies, but the faculty and employee handbooks will have all the glorious detail.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on February 08, 2021, 07:29:47 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on February 08, 2021, 07:18:22 PM
Quote from: dismalist on February 07, 2021, 11:08:32 PM
But Cost of Living is low, presumably with USA = 100:

Bethany cost of living is 77.4
           Bethany   West Virginia
Overall   77.4          78.1
Grocery   97.1           95.8
Health   97.5          106
Housing   47.4          41.7

Hell, housing is free!

That's the wrong Bethany College.  The Bethany College under discussion is in Kansas.

However, I wouldn't be betting on either Bethany College being around in twenty years if I were in the market for a new faculty position.

...

Same sort of price structure in Topeka, a two hour drive from Bethany. Housing is less than half the mean US price.

It is absolutely true, however, that dying places have cheap housing.

West Virginia, Kansas, whatever. :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on February 08, 2021, 07:32:19 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 08, 2021, 07:26:36 PM
The sad thing is that you don't need to be nearly that bad to be on the bubble. The salaries can be 20K higher and the  teaching load lighter.

The bubble for nurses, engineers, and CS, you mean.  Yeah, even $70k, benefits, and a 2/2  might not be competitive for those folks at places where good humanities folks will take the $35k for a 5/5.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on February 08, 2021, 07:33:17 PM
QuoteTexas doesn't provide state funding for students enrolled in a class for the third time or more. That also hurts students as they max out earlier than they should.

Speaking with de Gaulle about Bismarck: The trick is knowing when to stop.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on February 08, 2021, 07:35:53 PM
Quote from: dismalist on February 08, 2021, 07:29:47 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on February 08, 2021, 07:18:22 PM
Quote from: dismalist on February 07, 2021, 11:08:32 PM
But Cost of Living is low, presumably with USA = 100:

Bethany cost of living is 77.4
           Bethany   West Virginia
Overall   77.4          78.1
Grocery   97.1           95.8
Health   97.5          106
Housing   47.4          41.7

Hell, housing is free!

That's the wrong Bethany College.  The Bethany College under discussion is in Kansas.

However, I wouldn't be betting on either Bethany College being around in twenty years if I were in the market for a new faculty position.

...

Same sort of price structure in Topeka, a two hour drive from Bethany. Housing is less than half the mean US price.

It is absolutely true, however, that dying places have cheap housing.

West Virginia, Kansas, whatever. :-)

I know people at both Bethanys who do love their low cost of living in small towns where raising kids is nice.  I worry about what happens to those folks when "unexpectedly" they will lose their jobs and nice enough lives.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on February 08, 2021, 07:43:54 PM
Quote from: Mobius on February 08, 2021, 09:52:33 AM
I read through a good chunk of the thread this weekend, and most of the discussion centered on LACs. How do the regional comprehensives cope with systemic enrollment declines that predated the pandemic?

At the moment, many of the regional comprehensives are ignoring the issue as a temporary blip because believing the data is too disturbing.  We have several forumites who refuse to accept that reality.

However, some state systems are already looking at mergers and closings based on the demographic shifts.  Pennsylvania, Vermont, Alaska, and Wisconsin immediately come to mind as places where the plans were announced and faculty went to the media in an effort to get fiscally responsible plans stopped because the faculty don't want to lose their jobs.  If the faculty win the immediate battle, then the crash in a few years will be that much worse for everyone involved.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Golazo on February 09, 2021, 06:01:27 AM
My regional, which has mostly LAC-sized classes, will be a big winner if some of the pricey LACs that have the same completion rate we have for 2-4X the cost close. We are fortunate in that we are in a growing region and we are about the cheapest game around (this was part of my calculation when I took the job). If we recruit competently and don't do silly things, we'll be ok. I'm glad I'm not in PA. The outlook is not equally bad everywhere.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 09, 2021, 07:08:08 AM
I'm near a state regional school and they seem to be doing fine. In fact, I don't think I've heard much of anything about any of the state branches closing or merging. Rather not say the state (though I think over time some of you have figured out more or less where I am), but its not really same region as any of the states mentioned.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on February 09, 2021, 07:28:55 AM
Update on U of Evansville: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/02/09/u-evansville-scraps-plan-cut-music-department
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 09, 2021, 08:02:25 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on February 09, 2021, 07:28:55 AM
Update on U of Evansville: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/02/09/u-evansville-scraps-plan-cut-music-department

This is odd.  Since they're a Methodist school, it would make sense for them to retain a good commitment to music.  That's a common area of emphasis in denominationally-affiliated schools.  But Philosophy and Religion is still apparently on its way out?  And electrical engineering and computer science?

The article mentions "new revenue streams and increasing fundraising."  Wonder what they mean by that?  Do they think they have some major donors lined up to help?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 09, 2021, 08:15:48 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 09, 2021, 08:02:25 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on February 09, 2021, 07:28:55 AM
Update on U of Evansville: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/02/09/u-evansville-scraps-plan-cut-music-department

This is odd.  Since they're a Methodist school, it would make sense for them to retain a good commitment to music.  That's a common area of emphasis in denominationally-affiliated schools.  But Philosophy and Religion is still apparently on its way out?  And electrical engineering and computer science?

The article mentions "new revenue streams and increasing fundraising."  Wonder what they mean by that?  Do they think they have some major donors lined up to help?

I was assuming this was what they meant:
Quote
The university is also planning to launch a music conservatory to teach private lessons and a music therapy clinic. Evansville's Wheeler Concert Hall will also be renovated, costing about $3 million.

So the private lessons, music therapy, and potential rental of the concert space(?) are the "new revenue streams". However, unless faculty actually are involved in those other things, then there's nothing unique about the institution doing them. And nothing that makes them competitive with private companies offering the same services.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 09, 2021, 08:20:31 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 09, 2021, 08:15:48 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 09, 2021, 08:02:25 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on February 09, 2021, 07:28:55 AM
Update on U of Evansville: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/02/09/u-evansville-scraps-plan-cut-music-department

This is odd.  Since they're a Methodist school, it would make sense for them to retain a good commitment to music.  That's a common area of emphasis in denominationally-affiliated schools.  But Philosophy and Religion is still apparently on its way out?  And electrical engineering and computer science?

The article mentions "new revenue streams and increasing fundraising."  Wonder what they mean by that?  Do they think they have some major donors lined up to help?

I was assuming this was what they meant:
Quote
The university is also planning to launch a music conservatory to teach private lessons and a music therapy clinic. Evansville's Wheeler Concert Hall will also be renovated, costing about $3 million.

So the private lessons, music therapy, and potential rental of the concert space(?) are the "new revenue streams". However, unless faculty actually are involved in those other things, then there's nothing unique about the institution doing them. And nothing that makes them competitive with private companies offering the same services.

That's the thing--where are they getting the $3 million from?  I hope for their sake that they aren't doing this with borrowed money on spec, in the hopes that it will pay for itself.  On the other hand, if a big alumni donor chose to put this kind of money into the program, that could go a long way toward encouraging them to save it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on February 09, 2021, 08:42:36 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 09, 2021, 08:20:31 AM

That's the thing--where are they getting the $3 million from?  I hope for their sake that they aren't doing this with borrowed money on spec, in the hopes that it will pay for itself.  On the other hand, if a big alumni donor chose to put this kind of money into the program, that could go a long way toward encouraging them to save it.

Yeah... $3mil for infrastructure for a program which was on the chop seems crazy.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 09, 2021, 08:45:51 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 09, 2021, 08:42:36 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 09, 2021, 08:20:31 AM

That's the thing--where are they getting the $3 million from?  I hope for their sake that they aren't doing this with borrowed money on spec, in the hopes that it will pay for itself.  On the other hand, if a big alumni donor chose to put this kind of money into the program, that could go a long way toward encouraging them to save it.

Yeah... $3mil for infrastructure for a program which was on the chop seems crazy.

Does Evansville have another concert space? If not, they could be getting some support from the city. (If they're trying to compete with something that's already available, then that's not a good sign.....)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on February 09, 2021, 08:48:25 AM
From growing up in Col's, OH, just east of them, I seem to remember them having a very strong music program in the 70s and 80s at least.

Some of the Methodist schools do indeed maintain strong music programs, but some of those (like BU) have also lost some, but not all, of their Methodist identity along the way to the 21st c...the Hymn Society was housed at BU, for example, with an expert on Wesley's theological statements in hymnody as Exec. Dir., and an excellent Masters of Sacred Music program administered by the theology department in conjunction with the School for the Arts.   

The Big Ten midwestern state schools were all once reliable sources of a good music education, so the field was competitive in that region, (if for nothing other than making sure brass players could all march at 120 beats per minute...but it was more than that: the Cleveland Symphony was just up the road, for example...and I was in a high school AP music theory class at Capital U. with Paul O'Dette...just for some fun name-dropping...)

Maybe some illustrious alumnae/i have ponied up? The Methodist Church isn't rolling in money, but perhaps they did decide to support the program...

It is curious...if welcome. We need more, not fewer, good musicians, and many come from unexpected (i.e., non-urban) backgrounds.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on February 09, 2021, 11:32:49 AM
QuoteWe need more, not fewer, good musicians, and many come from unexpected (i.e., non-urban) backgrounds.

Is a college education in music really the pathway to additional good musicians?

Is renovating a performance center in the hopes of making revenue for the institution the best way to spend $3M to support aspiring musicians in the community?

I am reminded of the person who did her formal education in the creative side and was then surprised that her non-profit to support creatives failed: https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/12/from-graduate-student-to-amazon-warehouse-janitor.html .  Had the person spent her formal education in non-profit management with internships and done an MPA and taken workshops for her creative work, then she probably would have made a better go at realizing her stated dream of running a non-profit that supports artists.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: wareagle on February 09, 2021, 11:57:28 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on February 09, 2021, 11:32:49 AM

Is a college education in music really the pathway to additional good musicians?

Is renovating a performance center in the hopes of making revenue for the institution the best way to spend $3M to support aspiring musicians in the community?



If we replace "additional good musicians" with "additional good football players", and "performance center" with "athletic field", no one would even raise an eyebrow.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 09, 2021, 12:15:15 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on February 09, 2021, 11:32:49 AM
QuoteWe need more, not fewer, good musicians, and many come from unexpected (i.e., non-urban) backgrounds.

Is a college education in music really the pathway to additional good musicians?

Is renovating a performance center in the hopes of making revenue for the institution the best way to spend $3M to support aspiring musicians in the community?

I am reminded of the person who did her formal education in the creative side and was then surprised that her non-profit to support creatives failed: https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/12/from-graduate-student-to-amazon-warehouse-janitor.html .  Had the person spent her formal education in non-profit management with internships and done an MPA and taken workshops for her creative work, then she probably would have made a better go at realizing her stated dream of running a non-profit that supports artists.

Reading the article, I don't have a clue what the business model was, (i.e. where the money was supposed to come from), for her enterprise. ("Non-profit" is fine; "non-income" isn't.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on February 09, 2021, 12:53:27 PM
Not dire, but certainly not good: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2021/02/09/ucla-athletics-financial-straits-21-7-deficit-2020/4449561001/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 09, 2021, 01:10:24 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 09, 2021, 12:15:15 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on February 09, 2021, 11:32:49 AM
QuoteWe need more, not fewer, good musicians, and many come from unexpected (i.e., non-urban) backgrounds.

Is a college education in music really the pathway to additional good musicians?

Is renovating a performance center in the hopes of making revenue for the institution the best way to spend $3M to support aspiring musicians in the community?

I am reminded of the person who did her formal education in the creative side and was then surprised that her non-profit to support creatives failed: https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/12/from-graduate-student-to-amazon-warehouse-janitor.html .  Had the person spent her formal education in non-profit management with internships and done an MPA and taken workshops for her creative work, then she probably would have made a better go at realizing her stated dream of running a non-profit that supports artists.

Reading the article, I don't have a clue what the business model was, (i.e. where the money was supposed to come from), for her enterprise. ("Non-profit" is fine; "non-income" isn't.)

She appears to have chosen a field where very few people of any color or gender have an easy time making a go of it.  Either she was very poorly advised by her mentors, or she chose not to believe much of what they said. 

Well, she's young yet and still seems hopeful.  I wish her well in finding some way to make a fair living, and still getting to do what she likes to do on the side. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 09, 2021, 01:55:25 PM
Quote from: apl68 on February 09, 2021, 01:10:24 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 09, 2021, 12:15:15 PM
Reading the article, I don't have a clue what the business model was, (i.e. where the money was supposed to come from), for her enterprise. ("Non-profit" is fine; "non-income" isn't.)

She appears to have chosen a field where very few people of any color or gender have an easy time making a go of it.  Either she was very poorly advised by her mentors, or she chose not to believe much of what they said. 

Here's what she said:
Quote
I wanted to create a space where emerging visual and performing artists could receive professional development and education, network with local companies and potential clients, and expand their portfolios with themed exhibitions and performance opportunities.
I threw myself into a business plan, applied to art grants and startup-accelerator programs, and even joined an innovative female-owned co-working space, Splash Coworking. I created an artist-in-residence program, facilitating the artist-development initiative through a monthly event series I curated.


I see lots of things requiring money, (and given that the artists need the help precisely because they aren't financially stable, it's not going to come from them), but the only sources of money seem to be grants (including ones from accelerator programs, that are at best only for a short time), and those are never large.
Exhibitions, performances, and so on, in my experience, are basically always subsidized, so those wouldn't be money-makers for the organization, since it would have to provide the subsidies.

I don't see any potential income stream that would be generated by the "business".


Quote
Well, she's young yet and still seems hopeful.  I wish her well in finding some way to make a fair living, and still getting to do what she likes to do on the side.

Sadly, the odds don't look good.
Quote
When I left my full-time sales job at a call center last year, several months before graduating from my master's program, I felt invincible. I thought to myself, I'll just finish up my master's degree and start my own company doing what I love: writing and creating opportunities for other artists.

The fact that she was working full-time at a call centre while doing her master's should been some clue as to her employment prospects with the degree, but clearly it wasn't. (The only sort of degree which would make such a difference would be something professional, where the credential is needed to work in the field. In that case graduation could make a big jump in income.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: arty_ on February 09, 2021, 03:02:28 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on February 09, 2021, 11:32:49 AM
Quote
Is renovating a performance center in the hopes of making revenue for the institution the best way to spend $3M to support aspiring musicians in the community?

At my university, we build whatever the heck donors want. It is seemingly unrelated -- if not antithetical -- to what the faculty, administration, students, etc. want. The fundraising arm of the university says "yes!", doesn't ask questions, and doesn't push to massage the big gifts from what I can tell.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on February 09, 2021, 03:32:50 PM
Issue #1: Earmarked gifts are the bane of sane budgeting.

Issue #2: I can't take time to read the article right now. I just finished with one music student, I have to attend a dance class in 45 min. and haven't had dinner yet.

But...yes, my studies have definitely informed my work in music. Just now I was citing my freshman music theory teacher to a student who's learning his arpeggios and had one pop up in a song he's learning.

I've been analyzing a piece one of my students wants to play to see if we can find a chanted and/or folk dance source as clues to interpretive options.

I'm working between my earlier art, dance and music history studies to see if a Persian visual trope can help forecast the source of a Korean dance iconography exemplar (both show up in sources along the Silk Road at various times....) and/or had something to do with musical instruments pictured in the Korean piece.

Now, did I need all those studies to "play out" (be a musical performer doing G.B. work) as some would say?

Yes and no.

I was performing professionally by my last year in high school. I started teaching music and dance shortly after that.

Yes, people learn informally and by association; I definitely learned from the folks I played with, of course. But the educational side gave me options for practicing better, ways of looking up pieces and studying them and performing them that I might not have gotten from "the scene" itself.

Or maybe I would have. But what I would never say is that the education got in the way of the performing, or harmed my enjoyment of it.

The auto-didacts in music comes may not need schooling, true. But the rest of us do.

Music teachers can't get jobs in the public school systems without the credentials the programs usually lead to. Those curators in the archives I work in all have doctorates, in addition to their library degrees (and often their very impressive musical chops as well). I couldn't hold down my end of a conversation with another critic or write the pieces I've written without that background.

As easily have a lab bench manager calculate the titrations to program the robot for without a degree in chemistry.

Or something.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on February 09, 2021, 03:44:55 PM
Quote from: mamselle on February 09, 2021, 03:32:50 PM

As easily have a lab bench manager calculate the titrations to program the robot for without a degree in chemistry.

The lab manager doesn't do titrations; that's a completely different job...much like being a music teacher is a different job than being a professional musician or enjoying playing music publicly as a hobby while relying on some other profession to support the family.

Refusing to believe that people can perform at high levels while making money doing something else is how scientists end up performing in the state operas and orchestras while "professional" musicians take pitiful gigs and give painful private lessons to pay bills.

Formal instruction may be important for many people to grow as musicians, but few people need a college degree in music to have an adult life filled with music.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on February 09, 2021, 05:51:58 PM
More program prioritization, right-sizing, administrative review, whatever you want to call it, at St. Mary's College in Maryland, a Public Liberal Arts Honors College.

https://smnewsnet.com/archives/487165/st-marys-college-board-of-trustees-approves-academic-program-changes-for-fall-2021/?fbclid=IwAR25IubrphfRiNIONngz-rXOKIg-f1t0D8uqyzPFjFEbItuP9-q52nZ-dL4
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on February 09, 2021, 07:27:56 PM
Quotegive painful private lessons to pay bills.

My private lessons are a joy and pay decently.

I will not let you take that away from me.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on February 10, 2021, 06:20:27 AM
Not about any specific college, but a guide for Physics departments facing closure: https://ep3guide.org/toolkit (https://ep3guide.org/toolkit). Cited in a longer piece in Inside Higher Education in an article about the state of the field: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/02/10/physicists-discuss-threats-facing-departments-and-how-faculty-can-respond?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=65e1d17ccd-DNU_2021_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-65e1d17ccd-236510958&mc_cid=65e1d17ccd&mc_eid=adf482cc60 (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/02/10/physicists-discuss-threats-facing-departments-and-how-faculty-can-respond?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=65e1d17ccd-DNU_2021_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-65e1d17ccd-236510958&mc_cid=65e1d17ccd&mc_eid=adf482cc60)

None of this is probably going to shock anybody who has read to this point in the thread.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 10, 2021, 06:26:36 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on February 10, 2021, 06:20:27 AM
Not about any specific college, but a guide for Physics departments facing closure: https://ep3guide.org/toolkit (https://ep3guide.org/toolkit). Cited in a longer piece in Inside Higher Education in an article about the state of the field: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/02/10/physicists-discuss-threats-facing-departments-and-how-faculty-can-respond?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=65e1d17ccd-DNU_2021_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-65e1d17ccd-236510958&mc_cid=65e1d17ccd&mc_eid=adf482cc60 (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/02/10/physicists-discuss-threats-facing-departments-and-how-faculty-can-respond?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=65e1d17ccd-DNU_2021_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-65e1d17ccd-236510958&mc_cid=65e1d17ccd&mc_eid=adf482cc60)

None of this is probably going to shock anybody who has read to this point in the thread.

This is a great quote:
Quote
Hoddep said it's important for physics faculty to understand the perspectives of administrators who control an institution's purse strings.

"Some departments come and say, 'We're the physics department, we have to exist,' and those are the departments that are ultimately doomed," Hoddep said.

This applies to any discipline.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 10, 2021, 07:03:30 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on February 09, 2021, 05:51:58 PM
More program prioritization, right-sizing, administrative review, whatever you want to call it, at St. Mary's College in Maryland, a Public Liberal Arts Honors College.

https://smnewsnet.com/archives/487165/st-marys-college-board-of-trustees-approves-academic-program-changes-for-fall-2021/?fbclid=IwAR25IubrphfRiNIONngz-rXOKIg-f1t0D8uqyzPFjFEbItuP9-q52nZ-dL4

Neuroscience, Marine Science, Applied Data Science and Business Administration, and Track and Field are in.  German, Religious Studies and assorted performing arts majors and minors--the usual suspects--are out, along with some math and physics concentrations and Latin American Studies.  And what's left of the performing arts majors are being consolidated into a Performing Arts major.

Not the first time we've seen a Latin American Studies program cut in recent years.  I can remember when Latin American Studies was very much an up-and-coming field.  Guess it's not surprising to see some of the many majors set up during that time turning out to be also-rans.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 10, 2021, 09:03:12 AM
Going back to the Physics thing, that was a good article. I can add to it by saying:

1. Give students what they want (within reason). If they tend to be engineering oriented, don't offer only geophysics or  third semester theoretical quantum chromodynamics.  We re-oriented our whole program toward engineering (though due to the heavy college core, we couldn't get to the ABET certification level). They also have option of doing more traditional physics (which about half of them still do, probably because they see it as easier!).

2. Give students a slower paced avenue forward. That is, don't shove Calculus and Physics with Calcl in their faces in their first year. Only 25% of them can handle that. Think of ways to handle this at a slower pace. We did this by establishing an "Intro to Engineering" sort of course. For the less Engineering inclined, they can count one semester of a  Physics oriented subject (but no calc) at intro level, such as Astro, toward teh major.

3. Try your best to be relatable. It often means putting in more face time. For those who say "that isn't fair, the business folks don't need to do that"...well, "fair" is for people who don't care whether they lose their jobs or not or have any students at all.

4. Be a good college citizen. Agree to teach as much in core as you can. Have faculty serve on "important" and "busy" committees. Chair them.


I'm sure there is more.

By the way, more than 50% of this can probably be applied, in principle, to any dept. that needs to grow (or they die).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 10, 2021, 10:16:44 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 10, 2021, 09:03:12 AM

2. Give students a slower paced avenue forward. That is, don't shove Calculus and Physics with Calcl in their faces in their first year. Only 25% of them can handle that.

I'm curious about this one. Of the 75% who can't handle that, what percentage are actually able to graduate in phyics? In my experience, the ones who are that weak at math in the beginning aren't likely to ever be solid enough to handle the intense math that is fundamental to basically every physics sub-discipline. (The number who would be behind completely because of a poor high school would be quite low.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 10, 2021, 11:03:51 AM
In a year in which we have 10 majors graduating (combined engineering and vanilla physics), maybe would have started with a couple more who couldn't hack it *as declared majors*. We probably lose 2-5 people before the declaration point, or even any unofficial notice to a professor that they are interested. But the numbers were a bit higher before we started the newer program with a delay in taking Physics with calc (for all but the top 25% or so). 

Though honestly, we sometimes grow the major by getting some people late who decided they liked Physics after they took at as a pre-med. We don't necessarily know who isn't choosing us because it got too hard for them.

Look, none of those bottom guys are likely to go to grad school, at least not fresh out, but in the past, they've gone into the military and started working on something "physicsy" once they were established. Or, they worked for a utility company managing nuclear power.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on February 12, 2021, 12:39:31 PM
Not the greatest fit into this thread, but I don't think it deserves its own thread yet.

Good news for mahagonny! (https://www.iowapublicradio.org/state-government-news/2021-02-12/bill-to-ban-tenure-a-live-round-in-iowa-house-advances-in-both-chambers) (bills to eliminate tenure are advancing through both chambers of the Iowa legislature)


I don't imagine that's great news for Iowa universities. (Not that Iowa is best known for its universities, but still.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 12, 2021, 01:03:18 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 12, 2021, 12:39:31 PM
Not the greatest fit into this thread, but I don't think it deserves its own thread yet.

Good news for mahagonny! (https://www.iowapublicradio.org/state-government-news/2021-02-12/bill-to-ban-tenure-a-live-round-in-iowa-house-advances-in-both-chambers) (bills to eliminate tenure are advancing through both chambers of the Iowa legislature)


I don't imagine that's great news for Iowa universities. (Not that Iowa is best known for its universities, but still.)

If it passes, it will be interesting to see what happens over the next decade or so. Presumably, in disciplines where faculty can get high paying positions elsewhere, faculty salaries will have to go up. In disciplines where there isn't much work outside academia, things could get ugly where firing becomes an easy option.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: permanent imposter on February 12, 2021, 01:35:47 PM
Quote from: mamselle on February 09, 2021, 07:27:56 PM
Quotegive painful private lessons to pay bills.

My private lessons are a joy and pay decently.

I will not let you take that away from me.

M.

+1. You do you!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 12, 2021, 01:40:53 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 12, 2021, 12:39:31 PM
Not the greatest fit into this thread, but I don't think it deserves its own thread yet.

Good news for mahagonny! (https://www.iowapublicradio.org/state-government-news/2021-02-12/bill-to-ban-tenure-a-live-round-in-iowa-house-advances-in-both-chambers) (bills to eliminate tenure are advancing through both chambers of the Iowa legislature)


I don't imagine that's great news for Iowa universities. (Not that Iowa is best known for its universities, but still.)

Sounds like business and farm groups who understand the importance of good higher education to a state's economy are working to talk legislators out of this.  They'll probably succeed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on February 12, 2021, 03:15:56 PM
Ultimately, these bills aren't about finances. It's by GOP legislators (many of whom are college educated) using it to elicit support from rural "yokels" who hate book learnin'.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on February 12, 2021, 03:52:58 PM
Quote from: Mobius on February 12, 2021, 03:15:56 PM
Ultimately, these bills aren't about finances. It's by GOP legislators (many of whom are college educated) using it to elicit support from rural "yokels" who hate book learnin'.

Yeah, it's all in the dialectic, except for the discourse.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 13, 2021, 06:17:20 AM
Quote from: Mobius on February 12, 2021, 03:15:56 PM
Ultimately, these bills aren't about finances. It's by GOP legislators (many of whom are college educated) using it to elicit support from rural "yokels" who hate book learnin'.

I believe that it's more a sense that tenured college professors are an arrogant, privileged class who need to be cut down to size.  Reflexive denunciation of moronic "rural yokels" is not going to do anything to change that perception.  People know when they're being disrespected and condescended to, and they push back against it.  It's not a good idea for those who ultimately depend on voter support to hold large sections of the voting public in contempt.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Golazo on February 13, 2021, 06:37:23 AM
There isn't enough discussion of how tenure allows faculty to insist that students actually do college level work.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 13, 2021, 06:40:31 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 13, 2021, 06:17:20 AM
Quote from: Mobius on February 12, 2021, 03:15:56 PM
Ultimately, these bills aren't about finances. It's by GOP legislators (many of whom are college educated) using it to elicit support from rural "yokels" who hate book learnin'.

I believe that it's more a sense that tenured college professors are an arrogant, privileged class who need to be cut down to size.  Reflexive denunciation of moronic "rural yokels" is not going to do anything to change that perception.

And that image of professors is reinforced by them engaging in all kinds of protests and making disparaging statements about groups of people that they would be outraged if they were said of other groups.

Quote
People know when they're being disrespected and condescended to, and they push back against it.  It's not a good idea for those who ultimately depend on voter support to hold large sections of the voting public in contempt.

The people who complain about "micro-agressions" feel totally unashamed about being intentionally insulting to others, and are either unwilling or unable to see the hypocricy.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on February 13, 2021, 09:11:26 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 13, 2021, 06:40:31 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 13, 2021, 06:17:20 AM
Quote from: Mobius on February 12, 2021, 03:15:56 PM
Ultimately, these bills aren't about finances. It's by GOP legislators (many of whom are college educated) using it to elicit support from rural "yokels" who hate book learnin'.

I believe that it's more a sense that tenured college professors are an arrogant, privileged class who need to be cut down to size.  Reflexive denunciation of moronic "rural yokels" is not going to do anything to change that perception.

And that image of professors is reinforced by them engaging in all kinds of protests and making disparaging statements about groups of people that they would be outraged if they were said of other groups.

Quote
People know when they're being disrespected and condescended to, and they push back against it.  It's not a good idea for those who ultimately depend on voter support to hold large sections of the voting public in contempt.

The people who complain about "micro-agressions" feel totally unashamed about being intentionally insulting to others, and are either unwilling or unable to see the hypocricy.

I been avoiding all conversations such as these as essentially pointless, but I do have to ask, Marshy, specifically what incidents are you referring to?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 13, 2021, 10:25:21 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on February 13, 2021, 09:11:26 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 13, 2021, 06:40:31 AM

And that image of professors is reinforced by them engaging in all kinds of protests and making disparaging statements about groups of people that they would be outraged if they were said of other groups.

Quote
People know when they're being disrespected and condescended to, and they push back against it.  It's not a good idea for those who ultimately depend on voter support to hold large sections of the voting public in contempt.

The people who complain about "micro-agressions" feel totally unashamed about being intentionally insulting to others, and are either unwilling or unable to see the hypocricy.

I been avoiding all conversations such as these as essentially pointless, but I do have to ask, Marshy, specifically what incidents are you referring to?

Look at any institution where protestors (including academics) have tried to prevent someone speaking. A single example would be Bret Weinstein at Evergreen State, but there are dozens. In many cases, such as that one, professors have even had to leave campus permanaently because of the harassment, which if it were directed at someone in a "victim" category, would have the institution crucified in the media and/or in court.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on February 13, 2021, 11:27:51 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 13, 2021, 06:17:20 AM
Quote from: Mobius on February 12, 2021, 03:15:56 PM
Ultimately, these bills aren't about finances. It's by GOP legislators (many of whom are college educated) using it to elicit support from rural "yokels" who hate book learnin'.

I believe that it's more a sense that tenured college professors are an arrogant, privileged class who need to be cut down to size.  Reflexive denunciation of moronic "rural yokels" is not going to do anything to change that perception.  People know when they're being disrespected and condescended to, and they push back against it.  It's not a good idea for those who ultimately depend on voter support to hold large sections of the voting public in contempt.

GOP legislators also do a great job in pushing that narrative in that "all faculty" are lefties looking to push a commie agenda. Maybe tenure is a good idea for conservative professors, too.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on February 13, 2021, 07:41:11 PM
At the state level, Republicans have both houses and the governorship.  Federally, both senators are Republicans.  Iowa went for Trump in 2016 and 2020.  In the 2020 elections, the 4 congressional members went from 3 Democrats and 1 Republican to 1 Democrat and 3 Republicans.

It seems that all the leftist academics allegedly poisoning young minds are doing a piss poor job of it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on February 13, 2021, 09:55:15 PM
apl is certainly correct, and I have tried to point this out to secular lefty friends of mine, esp highly educated ones, who fall into the trap of doing exactly this, esp to evangelicals.

That said, ah, er.... well, it is unquestionably ALSO TRUE that these types of folks look down on college professor types, people who value booklarnin', etc., more or less just as much as the latter look down upon the former. One cannot have one's livelihood and basic values regularly and ignorantly reviled by a class of people, without beginning to develop some negative feelings towards the revilers, even if one did not hold such views originally.   Indeed, the ever increasing percentage of  GOP voters, who, when polled, think college and college education is bad for America, demonstrates that this chasm exists, and the bad thinking, lack of knowledge and critical analysis skills happily demonstrated by these people does deserve rebuke, even if such rebuke is often ham-fistedly done.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on February 13, 2021, 10:04:46 PM
Both sides in this debate undoubtedly think the other side started it — profs think the country folk hated them first, and country folk think the profs hated them first. Neither side sees any reason they should be the first to stop. However, we also shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush. I do know a country gentleman who resented the way people from the coasts referred slightingly to "flyover country." "They're all the same out there," he would say, it not occurring to him that he was indulging in the same stereotyping that he was complaining of. I do know people in both groups who understand the subtleties of the other group. After all, there are a non-negligible amount of people who started out in poor rural areas and are now professors. I'm one of them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on February 13, 2021, 10:13:28 PM
Hatfield - McCoy
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on February 13, 2021, 11:00:45 PM
A lot of resentment comes from a combination of identity politics that gets splashed all over conservative news websites, voters not seeing how college benefits them (directly or indirectly), and the overall cost of higher ed. The irony is most faculty aren't fans of ideological conformity and are concerned about rising costs that also didn't put money into their pockets.

I understand the resentment that could come from the second factor I mentioned.

Iowa only has three public universities with two R1s. The sad part is you see this resentment toward regional comprehensives that try to serve local populations with "affordable" tuition.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on February 14, 2021, 05:06:40 AM
None of this is new.

Raymond Williams suggested, more than half joking, that the country/city divide was as old as Eden. Certainly, Town and Gown tensions are (almost?) as old as the university.

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/english/currentstudents/undergraduate/modules/austenintheory/r_williams_reading_austen_in_theory.pdf (https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/english/currentstudents/undergraduate/modules/austenintheory/r_williams_reading_austen_in_theory.pdf)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 14, 2021, 06:24:13 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on February 13, 2021, 07:41:11 PM
At the state level, Republicans have both houses and the governorship.  Federally, both senators are Republicans.  Iowa went for Trump in 2016 and 2020.  In the 2020 elections, the 4 congressional members went from 3 Democrats and 1 Republican to 1 Democrat and 3 Republicans.

It seems that all the leftist academics allegedly poisoning young minds are doing a piss poor job of it.

Meanwhile at the University of Manila (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/14/world/asia/philippines-university-protests.html), student and faculty leaders are being denounced as communists and it is anticipated that they will be "dispatched" by the military in the near future. It's worth slowing the trend in Iowa.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on February 14, 2021, 03:51:16 PM

Quote from: secundem_artem on February 13, 2021, 07:41:11 PM
At the state level, Republicans have both houses and the governorship.  Federally, both senators are Republicans.  Iowa went for Trump in 2016 and 2020.  In the 2020 elections, the 4 congressional members went from 3 Democrats and 1 Republican to 1 Democrat and 3 Republicans.

It seems that all the leftist academics allegedly poisoning young minds are doing a piss poor job of it.

What percentage of voters have college degrees?

Of those folks, how many are young?

Oh, and what makes you think that poisoning minds would result in something positive for the leftist academics instead of having young people turn away from both their communities and the out-of-touch academics?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on February 14, 2021, 05:12:45 PM
I thought the whole point of poisoning the minds would be that the young would march in lockstep with the leftist agenda.

I want to know exactly how I'm supposed to be brainwashing my students, so I can do a better job of it. So far I can't even brainwash them effectively enough to use commas properly. Inducing them to subscribe to any particular worldview comes after persuading them to use topic sentences in their papers, so if someone has the secret to this brainwashing, I'm all ears.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on February 14, 2021, 05:37:03 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on February 14, 2021, 03:51:16 PM

Quote from: secundem_artem on February 13, 2021, 07:41:11 PM
At the state level, Republicans have both houses and the governorship.  Federally, both senators are Republicans.  Iowa went for Trump in 2016 and 2020.  In the 2020 elections, the 4 congressional members went from 3 Democrats and 1 Republican to 1 Democrat and 3 Republicans.

It seems that all the leftist academics allegedly poisoning young minds are doing a piss poor job of it.


What percentage of voters have college degrees?

Of those folks, how many are young?

Oh, and what makes you think that poisoning minds would result in something positive for the leftist academics instead of having young people turn away from both their communities and the out-of-touch academics?


About 25% of Iowans have a 4 year degree or higher.  Depending on the county, it ranges from 13% to over 50%.  Average age in Iowa is 38.

If all us lib-tard faculty were so effective at inculcating liberal values, you'd think the Democrats would do better. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on February 15, 2021, 09:18:44 AM
And here I remember why I quit posting...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on February 19, 2021, 07:57:09 AM
The Wright State BoT will meet today with this recommendation of 113 faculty positions to be lost:

http://www.wright.edu/sites/www.wright.edu/files/uploads/2021/Feb/meeting/WSU%20Retrenchment%20Executive%20Summary%20and%20Full%20Report.pdf
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 19, 2021, 08:42:34 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on February 19, 2021, 07:57:09 AM
The Wright State BoT will meet today with this recommendation of 113 faculty positions to be lost:

http://www.wright.edu/sites/www.wright.edu/files/uploads/2021/Feb/meeting/WSU%20Retrenchment%20Executive%20Summary%20and%20Full%20Report.pdf


Interesting document.  Looks like they're trying hard to be realistic.  They project that within a couple more years enrollment will be at something like half its peak a few years ago.  So major cuts in faculty numbers are absolutely unavoidable.  They hope for some improvement in the number of international students under the Biden administration, but not immediately and they're not staking too much on it.  They recognize that their MBA program doesn't have much "brand" strength to stand out in a crowded market, so they can't count on that for a cash cow.  On the other hand, they believe that their nursing program is strong enough to keep going without any cuts.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 19, 2021, 10:18:55 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 19, 2021, 08:42:34 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on February 19, 2021, 07:57:09 AM
The Wright State BoT will meet today with this recommendation of 113 faculty positions to be lost:

http://www.wright.edu/sites/www.wright.edu/files/uploads/2021/Feb/meeting/WSU%20Retrenchment%20Executive%20Summary%20and%20Full%20Report.pdf


Interesting document.  Looks like they're trying hard to be realistic.  They project that within a couple more years enrollment will be at something like half its peak a few years ago.  So major cuts in faculty numbers are absolutely unavoidable.  They hope for some improvement in the number of international students under the Biden administration, but not immediately and they're not staking too much on it.  They recognize that their MBA program doesn't have much "brand" strength to stand out in a crowded market, so they can't count on that for a cash cow.  On the other hand, they believe that their nursing program is strong enough to keep going without any cuts.

I find it interesting that the collective bargaining agreement allows for retrenchment after two years of enrollment declines, but the university waited five years -- until enrollment had declined by 30 percent -- to actually do anything to cut costs. And the projection is for a total enrollment decline of 50 percent.

But hey, those eleven Division I athletics programs are essential to attracting students. If we didn't have those, we might be projecting a 100 percent decline in enrollment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on February 19, 2021, 10:52:52 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 19, 2021, 08:42:34 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on February 19, 2021, 07:57:09 AM
The Wright State BoT will meet today with this recommendation of 113 faculty positions to be lost:

http://www.wright.edu/sites/www.wright.edu/files/uploads/2021/Feb/meeting/WSU%20Retrenchment%20Executive%20Summary%20and%20Full%20Report.pdf


Interesting document.  Looks like they're trying hard to be realistic.  They project that within a couple more years enrollment will be at something like half its peak a few years ago.  So major cuts in faculty numbers are absolutely unavoidable.  They hope for some improvement in the number of international students under the Biden administration, but not immediately and they're not staking too much on it.  They recognize that their MBA program doesn't have much "brand" strength to stand out in a crowded market, so they can't count on that for a cash cow.  On the other hand, they believe that their nursing program is strong enough to keep going without any cuts.

Remember Wright State faculty went on strike for three weeks in 2019. In the end, they didn't get much.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on February 19, 2021, 11:29:51 AM
Remember this? Akron, Ohio University and Wright State. Like Pennsylvania, Ohio has too many regional publics, with too much investment in buildings and DI athletics.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardvedder/2020/07/20/the-great-college-depression-begins/?sh=2ff279bc497b
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on February 19, 2021, 11:49:50 AM
PASSHE faculty also went on strike in 2016. Can't expect the status quo with dwindling enrollment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on February 19, 2021, 11:52:33 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on February 19, 2021, 11:29:51 AM
Remember this? Akron, Ohio University and Wright State. Like Pennsylvania, Ohio has too many regional publics, with too much investment in buildings and DI athletics.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardvedder/2020/07/20/the-great-college-depression-begins/?sh=2ff279bc497b

The emphasis on athletics alone is the worst. (Raised in Columbus beside OSU....there's a reason I hate football).

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on February 19, 2021, 12:07:54 PM
I don't subscribe to Vedder's contention that campus wokeness can even be partially at fault for enrollment declines.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 19, 2021, 12:09:30 PM
Quote from: mamselle on February 19, 2021, 11:52:33 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on February 19, 2021, 11:29:51 AM
Remember this? Akron, Ohio University and Wright State. Like Pennsylvania, Ohio has too many regional publics, with too much investment in buildings and DI athletics.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardvedder/2020/07/20/the-great-college-depression-begins/?sh=2ff279bc497b

The emphasis on athletics alone is the worst. (Raised in Columbus beside OSU....there's a reason I hate football).

M.

With the changes the NCAA is making, can Wright State divest the costly academic activities to focus solely on athlete development, supported by ticket sales, broadcast fees, cheerleader appearance fees, the professional leagues, sporting goods manufacturers and suppliers of performance-enhancing beverages?

Unfortunately, this move isn't likely to reduce the sports mania in Columbus.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 19, 2021, 12:10:51 PM
Quote from: Mobius on February 19, 2021, 12:07:54 PM
I don't subscribe to Vedder's contention that campus wokeness can even be partially at fault for enrollment declines.

That line really stood out to me as well.  Maybe it is true in that part of Ohio, but I suspect the comment was not based on data so much as the temptation to get a dig in at those who would challenge his power (or that of other Forbes readers).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on February 19, 2021, 12:22:45 PM
The wokeness comment is just silly. This is a demographics issue, pure and simple.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 19, 2021, 12:43:23 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on February 19, 2021, 12:22:45 PM
The wokeness comment is just silly. This is a demographics issue, pure and simple.

And a resource allocation decision issue. E.g., Division I athletics vs. academics, bond debt for capital construction.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 20, 2021, 08:53:06 AM
Wright State was only started in 1967?  What a terribly ugly campus it must have!  I'm envisioning nothing but brutalist concrete and parking lots.  At least an older campus usually has an Old Main and an historic dorm or two to brighten up part of the place.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on February 20, 2021, 09:21:12 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 20, 2021, 08:53:06 AM
Wright State was only started in 1967?  What a terribly ugly campus it must have!  I'm envisioning nothing but brutalist concrete and parking lots.  At least an older campus usually has an Old Main and an historic dorm or two to brighten up part of the place.

You just described every regional campus in Indiana.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: wellfleet on February 20, 2021, 11:15:38 AM
Not all of them--IUSB has some lovely modern buildings clad in limestone.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on February 20, 2021, 12:20:36 PM
Quote from: wellfleet on February 20, 2021, 11:15:38 AM
Not all of them--IUSB has some lovely modern buildings clad in limestone.

Don't they all (the IUs) have at least some limestone? All of the PUs have some brick too, but I think lovely is a bit of a stretch.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 20, 2021, 04:34:13 PM
An update from the NYT Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/20/us/colleges-covid-applicants.html): Disparity between haves and have-nots widens as measured by the number of applications.

The benchmark have: Harvard up 42%.

A SoCal sample,
UCLA up 28 percent
vs.
Cal Poly Pomona down 40 percent from would-be freshmen, and 52 percent from transfer students

The haves among otherwise stressed PA and upstate NY SLACs
Haverford up 16 percent
Swarthmore up 12 percent
Colgate up 103 percent
vs
SUNY down 14 perccent

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on February 20, 2021, 06:30:43 PM
Quote from: Hibush on February 20, 2021, 04:34:13 PM
An update from the NYT Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/20/us/colleges-covid-applicants.html): Disparity between haves and have-nots widens as measured by the number of applications.

The benchmark have: Harvard up 42%.

A SoCal sample,
UCLA up 28 percent
vs.
Cal Poly Pomona down 40 percent from would-be freshmen, and 52 percent from transfer students

The haves among otherwise stressed PA and upstate NY SLACs
Haverford up 16 percent
Swarthmore up 12 percent
Colgate up 103 percent
vs
SUNY down 14 perccent

I'd love to see how the discount rate is changing at the aforementioned schools.  Are students really clamoring to get into Colgate? Granted the number Hibush cites is the number of applications, not the number of admits or the number who accepted offers, but my point still holds to some extent. How many names are those schools buying to push brochures, in the hopes that those students attend? And how many of them are exclusively trying to court students who think they couldn't afford a private school by discounting tuition to the rates of the cheaper public schools?

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 21, 2021, 04:16:23 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on February 20, 2021, 06:30:43 PM
I'd love to see how the discount rate is changing at the aforementioned schools.  Are students really clamoring to get into Colgate? Granted the number Hibush cites is the number of applications, not the number of admits or the number who accepted offers, but my point still holds to some extent. How many names are those schools buying to push brochures, in the hopes that those students attend? And how many of them are exclusively trying to court students who think they couldn't afford a private school by discounting tuition to the rates of the cheaper public schools?

Yes, people are clamoring to get into Colgate. It is definitely one of the haves, though you may not recognize the name. Admit rate is 25% (and will be a lot less next year). Graduation rate is >90%. Net tuition is about $25K, and they have a good endowment.

Other schools in the region are having trouble filling their classes. The cheaper SUNY options in NY are among those seeing fewer applications.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 21, 2021, 06:12:39 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 21, 2021, 04:16:23 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on February 20, 2021, 06:30:43 PM
I'd love to see how the discount rate is changing at the aforementioned schools.  Are students really clamoring to get into Colgate? Granted the number Hibush cites is the number of applications, not the number of admits or the number who accepted offers, but my point still holds to some extent. How many names are those schools buying to push brochures, in the hopes that those students attend? And how many of them are exclusively trying to court students who think they couldn't afford a private school by discounting tuition to the rates of the cheaper public schools?

Yes, people are clamoring to get into Colgate. It is definitely one of the haves, though you may not recognize the name. Admit rate is 25% (and will be a lot less next year). Graduation rate is >90%.

This is the information that smart students will appreciate. A place that only has to accept good students will have a low attrition rate, and the rigor of the programs can be high. It makes sense for good students to choose a place like this since it will be a good fit.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on February 21, 2021, 08:02:39 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 21, 2021, 04:16:23 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on February 20, 2021, 06:30:43 PM
I'd love to see how the discount rate is changing at the aforementioned schools.  Are students really clamoring to get into Colgate? Granted the number Hibush cites is the number of applications, not the number of admits or the number who accepted offers, but my point still holds to some extent. How many names are those schools buying to push brochures, in the hopes that those students attend? And how many of them are exclusively trying to court students who think they couldn't afford a private school by discounting tuition to the rates of the cheaper public schools?

Yes, people are clamoring to get into Colgate. It is definitely one of the haves, though you may not recognize the name. Admit rate is 25% (and will be a lot less next year). Graduation rate is >90%. Net tuition is about $25K, and they have a good endowment.

Other schools in the region are having trouble filling their classes. The cheaper SUNY options in NY are among those seeing fewer applications.

Colgate is a high quality institution.

As for the SUNY's, it doesn't help that Oneonta's Covid response was a dumpster fire. https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/16/us/suny-oneonta-president-resigns-covid19-trnd/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/16/us/suny-oneonta-president-resigns-covid19-trnd/index.html)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 22, 2021, 07:32:57 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on February 21, 2021, 08:02:39 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 21, 2021, 04:16:23 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on February 20, 2021, 06:30:43 PM
I'd love to see how the discount rate is changing at the aforementioned schools.  Are students really clamoring to get into Colgate? Granted the number Hibush cites is the number of applications, not the number of admits or the number who accepted offers, but my point still holds to some extent. How many names are those schools buying to push brochures, in the hopes that those students attend? And how many of them are exclusively trying to court students who think they couldn't afford a private school by discounting tuition to the rates of the cheaper public schools?

Yes, people are clamoring to get into Colgate. It is definitely one of the haves, though you may not recognize the name. Admit rate is 25% (and will be a lot less next year). Graduation rate is >90%. Net tuition is about $25K, and they have a good endowment.

Other schools in the region are having trouble filling their classes. The cheaper SUNY options in NY are among those seeing fewer applications.

Colgate is a high quality institution.

They're especially known for their excellent school of dentistry.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on February 22, 2021, 08:16:17 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 22, 2021, 07:32:57 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on February 21, 2021, 08:02:39 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 21, 2021, 04:16:23 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on February 20, 2021, 06:30:43 PM
I'd love to see how the discount rate is changing at the aforementioned schools.  Are students really clamoring to get into Colgate? Granted the number Hibush cites is the number of applications, not the number of admits or the number who accepted offers, but my point still holds to some extent. How many names are those schools buying to push brochures, in the hopes that those students attend? And how many of them are exclusively trying to court students who think they couldn't afford a private school by discounting tuition to the rates of the cheaper public schools?

Yes, people are clamoring to get into Colgate. It is definitely one of the haves, though you may not recognize the name. Admit rate is 25% (and will be a lot less next year). Graduation rate is >90%. Net tuition is about $25K, and they have a good endowment.

Other schools in the region are having trouble filling their classes. The cheaper SUNY options in NY are among those seeing fewer applications.

Colgate is a high quality institution.

They're especially known for their excellent school of dentistry.

Actually, whistleblowers have indicated that the school of dentistry's internship program is just a cover for putting students to work in the local toothpaste factory without wages.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 22, 2021, 09:51:46 AM
Reddit maintains a rich repository of Colgate University jokes (https://www.reddit.com/r/AdviceAnimals/comments/1g89on/i_go_to_colgate_university_the_jokes_get_very_old/). But it is archived, so that last current reference can't be added.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 22, 2021, 11:01:06 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 22, 2021, 08:16:17 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 22, 2021, 07:32:57 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on February 21, 2021, 08:02:39 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 21, 2021, 04:16:23 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on February 20, 2021, 06:30:43 PM
I'd love to see how the discount rate is changing at the aforementioned schools.  Are students really clamoring to get into Colgate? Granted the number Hibush cites is the number of applications, not the number of admits or the number who accepted offers, but my point still holds to some extent. How many names are those schools buying to push brochures, in the hopes that those students attend? And how many of them are exclusively trying to court students who think they couldn't afford a private school by discounting tuition to the rates of the cheaper public schools?

Yes, people are clamoring to get into Colgate. It is definitely one of the haves, though you may not recognize the name. Admit rate is 25% (and will be a lot less next year). Graduation rate is >90%. Net tuition is about $25K, and they have a good endowment.

Other schools in the region are having trouble filling their classes. The cheaper SUNY options in NY are among those seeing fewer applications.

Colgate is a high quality institution.

They're especially known for their excellent school of dentistry.

Actually, whistleblowers have indicated that the school of dentistry's internship program is just a cover for putting students to work in the local toothpaste factory without wages.

Oh, wow.  It's sad to hear that they've stooped to that.  Colgate U. always seemed better than that!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on February 22, 2021, 11:17:52 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 22, 2021, 11:01:06 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 22, 2021, 08:16:17 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 22, 2021, 07:32:57 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on February 21, 2021, 08:02:39 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 21, 2021, 04:16:23 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on February 20, 2021, 06:30:43 PM
I'd love to see how the discount rate is changing at the aforementioned schools.  Are students really clamoring to get into Colgate? Granted the number Hibush cites is the number of applications, not the number of admits or the number who accepted offers, but my point still holds to some extent. How many names are those schools buying to push brochures, in the hopes that those students attend? And how many of them are exclusively trying to court students who think they couldn't afford a private school by discounting tuition to the rates of the cheaper public schools?

Yes, people are clamoring to get into Colgate. It is definitely one of the haves, though you may not recognize the name. Admit rate is 25% (and will be a lot less next year). Graduation rate is >90%. Net tuition is about $25K, and they have a good endowment.

Other schools in the region are having trouble filling their classes. The cheaper SUNY options in NY are among those seeing fewer applications.

Colgate is a high quality institution.

They're especially known for their excellent school of dentistry.

Actually, whistleblowers have indicated that the school of dentistry's internship program is just a cover for putting students to work in the local toothpaste factory without wages.

Oh, wow.  It's sad to hear that they've stooped to that.  Colgate U. always seemed better than that!

It aggravates my last nerve when people don't brush up on the labor laws.



I'll be here all week.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on February 22, 2021, 11:35:35 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on February 22, 2021, 11:17:52 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 22, 2021, 11:01:06 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 22, 2021, 08:16:17 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 22, 2021, 07:32:57 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on February 21, 2021, 08:02:39 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 21, 2021, 04:16:23 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on February 20, 2021, 06:30:43 PM
I'd love to see how the discount rate is changing at the aforementioned schools.  Are students really clamoring to get into Colgate? Granted the number Hibush cites is the number of applications, not the number of admits or the number who accepted offers, but my point still holds to some extent. How many names are those schools buying to push brochures, in the hopes that those students attend? And how many of them are exclusively trying to court students who think they couldn't afford a private school by discounting tuition to the rates of the cheaper public schools?

Yes, people are clamoring to get into Colgate. It is definitely one of the haves, though you may not recognize the name. Admit rate is 25% (and will be a lot less next year). Graduation rate is >90%. Net tuition is about $25K, and they have a good endowment.

Other schools in the region are having trouble filling their classes. The cheaper SUNY options in NY are among those seeing fewer applications.

Colgate is a high quality institution.

They're especially known for their excellent school of dentistry.

Actually, whistleblowers have indicated that the school of dentistry's internship program is just a cover for putting students to work in the local toothpaste factory without wages.

Oh, wow.  It's sad to hear that they've stooped to that.  Colgate U. always seemed better than that!

It aggravates my last nerve when people don't brush up on the labor laws.

I'll be here all week.

That was held to be a problem in the Iowa state system, but is Colgate implicated as well?

   https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=2056.msg59467#msg59467

Or is Parasaurolophus pulling your mandible?

M. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 22, 2021, 04:15:56 PM
I think we've reached the crest of bad college jokes...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on February 22, 2021, 04:31:46 PM
Given the Scope of the problem, we haven't made a dent.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on February 22, 2021, 05:19:59 PM
You guys are cracking Bucky Beaver up!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: AmLitHist on February 23, 2021, 08:58:31 AM
For Thursday's board meeting, the long-rumored early severance plan is recommended for approval.  Once the dust settles from that, there will likely be another RIF.

Also interesting is a long list of non-renewals of contracts covering departments like advising, institutional research, curriculum, and the registrar's office.  Some of those will surely be rehired under other titles, but many won't, according to the grapevine.

Like the last severance, I'm eligible to take it, but it's so financially small I can't afford it. Alas. A number of others probably will, though, so at least I should move up the dept. seniority list and maybe even get better pickings come class-scheduling time.  Maybe.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 23, 2021, 09:56:05 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 23, 2021, 08:58:31 AM
For Thursday's board meeting, the long-rumored early severance plan is recommended for approval.  Once the dust settles from that, there will likely be another RIF.

Also interesting is a long list of non-renewals of contracts covering departments like advising, institutional research, curriculum, and the registrar's office.  Some of those will surely be rehired under other titles, but many won't, according to the grapevine.

Like the last severance, I'm eligible to take it, but it's so financially small I can't afford it. Alas. A number of others probably will, though, so at least I should move up the dept. seniority list and maybe even get better pickings come class-scheduling time.  Maybe.

Is this the second or third time AmLitHist U has been through this?  How much of their faculty have they already severed?  What sorts of offers are they giving?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: AmLitHist on February 23, 2021, 12:56:09 PM
There was a mini/selective incentive about a decade back, but the big one (and ensuing big RIF) came in 2017-18. 

The incentive is one month of the college-paid portion of basic employee-only health insurance for each year of service. So, I'd have to pay for my portion of the base plan, plus the full amount of my buy-up, plus both the college's and my part of the coverage for my spouse--something over $990/month.  (ALHS isn't old enough for Medicare yet--turns 62 this year--so it'd  be a long-term commitment of a lot of money.  The other option instead of insurance is (1.5% of annual base salary) x (years of service), NOT to exceed $30,000 total.  With my 17 years, it'd be a whopping $18,800.  Woo-hoo, and don't spend it all in one place.

All this, of course, plus the task of looking for a new job at age 60, when there aren't many that I'd be a good fit for in this area that pay as well as what I have now, even if I'd be up for looking/starting all over at my age (which I'm really not, unless I just absolutely have to).  I have a lot (10+) of older colleagues who've said for a long time that they'll take the offer, regardless of the amount.  If I were over 65, or at least if ALHS were, I'd seriously consider it, too. 

I'm really waiting to see how bad the RIF will be this time.  I'm thinking I (and my dept.) should be safe this time; we lost over 30% last go-round.

As it is, I'm hoping my job holds for another 5 years, and I'll try to keep my mouth shut.  I'm paid pretty well to do that, even if things do get aggravating as hell with Admin.  It can't be good for a place to have two buyouts/RIFs this close together, though, can it? 

Interestingly, our counterpart CC in the next county over is hiring like mad, both faculty and mid-level admin. We can't blame all our woes on the demographics or COVID; the same things apply 25 miles down the road, too, and they're doing well.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 23, 2021, 01:12:12 PM
^ weirdly I find this reassuring, because it is highly likely that in the ten years until I hit age 65, I will probably see another new provost or two and probably also several new deans. Of course working conditions will steadily deteriorate by then, but the administrators I am aggravating now with facts will be long gone.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: AmLitHist on February 23, 2021, 01:22:38 PM
Quote from: spork on February 23, 2021, 01:12:12 PM
^ weirdly I find this reassuring, because it is highly likely that in the ten years until I hit age 65, I will probably see another new provost or two and probably also several new deans. Of course working conditions will steadily deteriorate by then, but the administrators I am aggravating now with facts will be long gone.
One of my first good friends here used to tell me, "Admins come and go, but the faculty remains."  We've certainly seen them come and go (in 17 years, I'm on my fifth chancellor), and I still have enough stubbornness that I remain.  If they want rid of me before I retire, they're going to have to fire me and pay my unemployment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on February 26, 2021, 09:10:25 AM
Have we listed Baker University (https://thebakerorange.com/35108/news/university-cuts-faculty-staff-and-programs-in-the-wake-of-financial-hardship/) yet? Enrollments are down 39%, so they're cutting 18 faculty and staff positions, eliminating four majors (philosophy, theatre, French, and German), and eliminating two minors (French and German). The program cuts are motivated by low major enrollment (not surprising in departments with just one instructor).

At the same time, it sounds like they're looking to spend $17 million to upgrade athletic facilities, and are going to be funding a new lacrosse team. (Information gleaned from this (https://www.change.org/p/baker-university-board-of-trustees-and-president-lynne-murray-demand-transparency-from-baker-university-leadership?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=custom_url&recruited_by_id=6c7ace50-6860-0130-12d7-38ac6f16cbb1) petition.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on February 26, 2021, 09:58:22 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 26, 2021, 09:10:25 AM
At the same time, it sounds like they're looking to spend $17 million to upgrade athletic facilities, and are going to be funding a new lacrosse team. (Information gleaned from this (https://www.change.org/p/baker-university-board-of-trustees-and-president-lynne-murray-demand-transparency-from-baker-university-leadership?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=custom_url&recruited_by_id=6c7ace50-6860-0130-12d7-38ac6f16cbb1) petition.)

What drives enrollment?  At Super Dinky, 70% of students started as athletes.  At one point, the football team was a third of the student body and that was DIII with no athletic scholarships.

Getting full-pay students through athletic participation at a smaller school can be a better strategy than doubling down on majors that clearly aren't drawing.

The pre-professional athletics that are mostly about audience is a different case regarding budget than participatory activities.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: arty_ on February 26, 2021, 10:01:12 AM
Canceling French and German, and in the next sentence talking about adding Hebrew, Arabic and ASL. Huh.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on February 26, 2021, 10:14:52 AM
More like the new lacrosse team will be funding them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on February 26, 2021, 10:48:53 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on February 26, 2021, 09:58:22 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 26, 2021, 09:10:25 AM
At the same time, it sounds like they're looking to spend $17 million to upgrade athletic facilities, and are going to be funding a new lacrosse team. (Information gleaned from this (https://www.change.org/p/baker-university-board-of-trustees-and-president-lynne-murray-demand-transparency-from-baker-university-leadership?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=custom_url&recruited_by_id=6c7ace50-6860-0130-12d7-38ac6f16cbb1) petition.)

What drives enrollment?  At Super Dinky, 70% of students started as athletes.  At one point, the football team was a third of the student body and that was DIII with no athletic scholarships.

Getting full-pay students through athletic participation at a smaller school can be a better strategy than doubling down on majors that clearly aren't drawing.

The pre-professional athletics that are mostly about audience is a different case regarding budget than participatory activities.

For the record, I was a student-athlete--in a club sport, which meant that we funded it ourselves, through club dues and sponsorships. (I didn't pick my university for the sports, however. And things are different in this country.) I understand that athletics can be a draw for enrollment, but I'm not convinced that multi-million-dollar investments in athletics are the way to go when you're already in dire straits, or that you can add enough new sports to stem the shortfalls. Similarly, when you're in a hard financial position, I'm not sure that new multi-million-dollar infrastructure projects are a good idea. Maybe fine arts really does need a new studio space, because the existing ones are getting kind of unsafe, and fine arts is a draw to your school--in that case, great! The infrastructure upgrade may well be worthwhile. But will a new student centre--or a lazy river--really help?

I'm not actually against closing down majors (or even minors) in principle. It may well be that, in Baker's case, this is a smart move. But it also seems to me like majors are often the wrong metric by which to judge a department's performance. In fact, it seems mostly irrelevant to me: what's more important is enrollment in the classes offered. If there's plenty of enrollment in upper-level courses, then it doesn't really matter that only one or two people a year are declaring a major; you can just offer it, it's a freebie, and it probably actually helps keep a few students on campus. If, on the other hand, your upper-level class enrollment is consistently low (like, below the break-even point), then you have to ask whether you're just offering those courses to support the infrastructure required for a major, and whether there are enough majors to make that worthwhile (and the answer's probably 'no').

I'd also note, however, that I'm not sure we can really characterize maintaining a program or major as 'doubling down' when that major is served by a single instructor. Cutting the low-enrolled upper-level courses required for the major may or may not make financial sense, depending on how the lower-level courses are enrolling. But there's also only so much a single instructor can do (or be expected to do) on their own, especially in a discovery major. If you want to know whether a major in that subject is viable, I think you'd have to have more instructors to begin with. And if they still can't recruit a steady stream of majors, well then, at that point you have your answer. So: you'd first have to invest in it, period. But you can't be expecting 10- 20+ majors for a subject served only by a single instructor. Even 4-5 a year would be really pushing it.

At my (dinky!) institution, my department has six instructors, soon to be seven. We have more than enough instructors to support a really high-quality major in the subject. But we don't have one, because the administration has serious doubts about the number of majors we could pull in (and, frankly, they're probably not wrong; we'd probably get some, but not a number which would look good against the seven faculty--certainly not 20+ a year). We also don't have a minor (for similar reasons), and I suspect that's a mistake. We have very high and robust enrollments in the courses we offer, and the smattering of upper-level courses which occasionally run would suffice for a minor. (Without one, TBH, I don't see the point of running those courses at all.)

But here's the rub: the university has so few subjects that one can major or minor in, at the moment, that it's bleeding enrollment to other local institutions. And that bleeding, especially of domestic students, is getting to the point where it's endangering our (government) funding. We've coordinated with two other departments to try to offer a joint major, and it looks like that might eventually succeed, but there's a lot of admin pushback. But the reality is that you're not going to keep enrollments up if you don't offer your students any reason to stay.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 26, 2021, 11:10:15 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 26, 2021, 09:10:25 AM
Have we listed Baker University (https://thebakerorange.com/35108/news/university-cuts-faculty-staff-and-programs-in-the-wake-of-financial-hardship/) yet? Enrollments are down 39%, so they're cutting 18 faculty and staff positions, eliminating four majors (philosophy, theatre, French, and German), and eliminating two minors (French and German). The program cuts are motivated by low major enrollment (not surprising in departments with just one instructor).

At the same time, it sounds like they're looking to spend $17 million to upgrade athletic facilities, and are going to be funding a new lacrosse team. (Information gleaned from this (https://www.change.org/p/baker-university-board-of-trustees-and-president-lynne-murray-demand-transparency-from-baker-university-leadership?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=custom_url&recruited_by_id=6c7ace50-6860-0130-12d7-38ac6f16cbb1) petition.)

The four departments had five majors between them...so it is indeed difficult to see the justification for continuing them.  It's hard to see the alternative language majors they're considering doing much for them.

Looking to recruit more students by starting a new lacrosse team?  Seems like a real gamble.  This is not a good time for schools to be borrowing millions of dollars to upgrade their athletic facilities, even if there are students out there willing to pay good money just to play college sports.

A quick look at the higher education situation in Kansas suggests that they have more schools there than the state can support in a time of declining demographics.  They've got almost twice as many private colleges as Arkansas, with a similar population.  Including two other Methodist schools right there in-state.  I can see why students are worried about their alma mater's long-term prospects of survival. 

Interesting to note that students are starting to become aware of the fact that colleges are dying. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on February 26, 2021, 11:51:56 AM
Lacrosse is one of the few sports that might pay off in attracting more students who are more likely to be full-pay and college-ready who will graduate and then be useful as alumni.  The discussions in various places for years has been participating in the rich people sports to fit in at the elite institutions.  The recent Atlantic article had problems with specific examples, but the basic idea is sound.

Per class enrollment is a terrible way to budget when the straits are dire.  The only thing that matters is attracting new students who will pay nearly full price.  College-ready people with the means to pay nearly full price for the college experience want a movie-style college experience.  A community college generally shouldn't build a lazy river.  A S(mall)LAC promoting mens sana in corpore sano has a better shot.

People with means pick college based on experience and expected return on investment.  Electives tend to not matter, especially if those electives are only filled as a result of gen ed requirements, not actual interest in the subject.  People that interested generally would have picked a place with the major and then majored or minored.

Once the institution is at one to three professors carrying mostly gen eds, then the major should be declared dead.  If the upper-division courses were filled due to student interest, then there would be majors in droves and the faculty would not have been allowed to dwindle.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on February 26, 2021, 03:27:25 PM
Parents paying full price so their kids can play lacrosse don't really care about return on investment. Likewise, thee colleges have incentive to throw up a bunch of smoke and mirrors to give parents the warm fuzzies because their kid with average talent can play college sports.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jonadam on February 28, 2021, 10:53:11 PM
Quote from: arty_ on February 26, 2021, 10:01:12 AM
Canceling French and German, and in the next sentence talking about adding Hebrew, Arabic and ASL. Huh.

ASL and Arabic make a lot of sense, but Hebrew? Due to a variety of factors, Israelis all speak English very well; it's one of those countries where all of their imported media is subtitled and not dubbed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 01, 2021, 05:01:34 AM
I'd say all educated Israelis speak English at least so that you can understand each other, but a higher percentage than you'd think aren't quite so well educated, at least not in Western languages, and it can be a struggle to speak in anything but Hebrew, or in certain areas, Arabic,maybe even Russian.

As for why teach Hebrew, I'd guess it's either student demand, or maybe some tradition of pre divinity students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 01, 2021, 06:25:38 AM
Quote from: jonadam on February 28, 2021, 10:53:11 PM
Quote from: arty_ on February 26, 2021, 10:01:12 AM
Canceling French and German, and in the next sentence talking about adding Hebrew, Arabic and ASL. Huh.

ASL and Arabic make a lot of sense, but Hebrew? Due to a variety of factors, Israelis all speak English very well; it's one of those countries where all of their imported media is subtitled and not dubbed.

Written documents exist from ancient times and we should keep the ability to interact with those documents.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 01, 2021, 06:30:47 AM
Quote from: Mobius on February 26, 2021, 03:27:25 PM
Parents paying full price so their kids can play lacrosse don't really care about return on investment. Likewise, thee colleges have incentive to throw up a bunch of smoke and mirrors to give parents the warm fuzzies because their kid with average talent can play college sports.

The ROI expected is exactly the networking with the appropriate social class that will lead to a comfortable life.  The formal classes are much less important than having a good enough college degree and many contacts who accept the offspring as one of the in-group.

The status is not college athlete; the status is near upper-middle class with regular interactions with the people who matter through those people's offspring and the alumni network.

Classes only matter for people who will be using a preprofessional major, not for those who are spending four years networking and building social caputal.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 01, 2021, 07:07:09 AM
I might say *particular* classes probably don't matter so much to a student's future under the conditions you mention , Polly, but I don't think that means that classes universally don't matter (although obviously for some students classes obviously don't matter, and for still others, nothing matters!).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 01, 2021, 07:20:10 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 01, 2021, 05:01:34 AM

As for why teach Hebrew, I'd guess it's either student demand, or maybe some tradition of pre divinity students.

That kind of has me wondering.  I would have figured that a denominationally-affiliated school would already have classes in Hebrew.  Maybe they dropped it a while back and have now reconsidered?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 01, 2021, 07:40:36 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 01, 2021, 07:07:09 AM
I might say *particular* classes probably don't matter so much to a student's future under the conditions you mention , Polly, but I don't think that means that classes universally don't matter (although obviously for some students classes obviously don't matter, and for still others, nothing matters!).

The wealthy don't sent their children to Harvard for the education.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 01, 2021, 09:08:02 AM

I can only tell you if that's so if I send my kid to Harvard.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 01, 2021, 09:13:01 AM
Guilford College has another interim president:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/03/01/guilford-names-new-interim-president-second-year (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/03/01/guilford-names-new-interim-president-second-year).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on March 01, 2021, 10:06:50 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 01, 2021, 06:30:47 AM
Quote from: Mobius on February 26, 2021, 03:27:25 PM
Parents paying full price so their kids can play lacrosse don't really care about return on investment. Likewise, thee colleges have incentive to throw up a bunch of smoke and mirrors to give parents the warm fuzzies because their kid with average talent can play college sports.

The ROI expected is exactly the networking with the appropriate social class that will lead to a comfortable life.  The formal classes are much less important than having a good enough college degree and many contacts who accept the offspring as one of the in-group.

The status is not college athlete; the status is near upper-middle class with regular interactions with the people who matter through those people's offspring and the alumni network.

Classes only matter for people who will be using a preprofessional major, not for those who are spending four years networking and building social caputal.

I've been around a lot of LAC athletes, and that athlete status matters for many parents. These athletes rarely leave their hometown region after graduation, so they don't need the social network the LAC gives them. Those small town banks or insurance firms love that "former high school star/NAIA-DIII-DII athlete" is working for them, though. Qutting sports in college doesn't help them maintain that "star" status, even though they have connections from being from a family from the right side of the tracks in smallville.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 01, 2021, 10:39:50 AM
Mount Holyoke has announced that they're shutting down their childcare center.  Faculty are understandably upset:


https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/03/01/mount-holyoke-abruptly-announces-closure-childcare-center


Not presented explicitly as a cost-cutting measure, but that's the only explanation that makes sense.  They have to have known how bad this would look.  Seems like I recall Mount Holyoke appearing on the "Dire Financial Straits" thread before, here or at the old Fora.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 01, 2021, 10:45:13 AM
No no, you got it wrong Mobius...it's the DIII sports stuff that *builds* the network that you say (s)he doesn't need! How do you think this students gets that darn insurance job? Sometimes it'll fall in his or her lap, sure, but most of the time its because they can return to a place that has other former athletes and other alums of the same or similar colleges.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on March 01, 2021, 11:40:39 AM
I'm not saying you're right or wrong. In my anecdotal evidence (living in a few small towns with SLACs), most employees of those types of business went to generic regional comprehensive. The "hometown stud" (yes, it's usually a male) who was DIII/NAIA athlete at a SLAC gets the fanfare when they triumphantly return after the middling college athletic career.

It would be a very interesting to study the SLAC sports-to-career network, since my data is limited.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 01, 2021, 01:28:44 PM
The ones I see are just as likely (or more) to go work for big employer 30 miles from home as they are to work for  small-mid sized employer run by their  girlfriend's Dad. I guess either could have its own kind of networking.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 01, 2021, 02:48:55 PM
Baker University:

It's got fewer than 1,500 undergrads. As of FY 2019, FTE undergrad enrollment was 1,435. Probably it is lower than that now.

Negative net revenue for FYs 2015, 2016, 2017. It had positive net revenue of $13.7 million in FY 2014 because of $16 million in contributions yet it was in the red the following year.  Positive net revenue for FYs 2018 and 2019. But maybe things went south again for last year and this year -- definitely possible given the pandemic.

Its endowment is only $34 million. This is a heavily tuition-dependent institution.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 01, 2021, 03:00:14 PM
Quote from: spork on March 01, 2021, 02:48:55 PM
Baker University:

It's got fewer than 1,500 undergrads. As of FY 2019, FTE undergrad enrollment was 1,435. Probably it is lower than that now.

Negative net revenue for FYs 2015, 2016, 2017. It had positive net revenue of $13.7 million in FY 2014 because of $16 million in contributions yet it was in the red the following year.  Positive net revenue for FYs 2018 and 2019. But maybe things went south again for last year and this year -- definitely possible given the pandemic.

Its endowment is only $34 million. This is a heavily tuition-dependent institution.

They're quite similar to Alma Mater in number of students.  Alma Mater's endowment is probably in the same ballpark.  Alma Mater hasn't been running such deficits, though.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 01, 2021, 03:14:24 PM
The Baker case reminds me that some of what we see may be CEO's engaging in asset stripping. Perfectly rational: The place is going down. Rather than try to save it, spend the endowment [preferably on oneself]!

They can't possibly believe their own accounting: Sixteen million dollars from gifts is not revenue -- it's a windfall, best booked to the endowment, not to revenue.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on March 01, 2021, 03:22:05 PM
Quote from: Mobius on March 01, 2021, 10:06:50 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 01, 2021, 06:30:47 AM
Quote from: Mobius on February 26, 2021, 03:27:25 PM
Parents paying full price so their kids can play lacrosse don't really care about return on investment. Likewise, thee colleges have incentive to throw up a bunch of smoke and mirrors to give parents the warm fuzzies because their kid with average talent can play college sports.

The ROI expected is exactly the networking with the appropriate social class that will lead to a comfortable life.  The formal classes are much less important than having a good enough college degree and many contacts who accept the offspring as one of the in-group.

The status is not college athlete; the status is near upper-middle class with regular interactions with the people who matter through those people's offspring and the alumni network.

Classes only matter for people who will be using a preprofessional major, not for those who are spending four years networking and building social caputal.

I've been around a lot of LAC athletes, and that athlete status matters for many parents. These athletes rarely leave their hometown region after graduation, so they don't need the social network the LAC gives them. Those small town banks or insurance firms love that "former high school star/NAIA-DIII-DII athlete" is working for them, though. Qutting sports in college doesn't help them maintain that "star" status, even though they have connections from being from a family from the right side of the tracks in smallville.

I would really love to see a struggling sLAC business plan that plans on increasing paid enrollment through sports, with enrollment projections based on actual verifiable needs/wants of real potential students. I certainly hope the business plan has some valid market research (primary data & not the BS that all athletic departments, in general, spew out) to backup the assumptions that are made when sports is deemed to be the move that will save a struggling college. Maybe someone can point me to the success stories where this actually worked, which at least provides secondary data as evidence. It seems that every sad sack story I hear of a sLAC college going under, tried to save their school with sports, before the final finishing blow. What saddens me about Baker is that the region of the country that Baker serves doesn't really have a strong Lacrosse following (compared to the northeast). They are doomed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 01, 2021, 03:22:13 PM
Quote from: arty_ on February 26, 2021, 10:01:12 AM
Canceling French and German, and in the next sentence talking about adding Hebrew, Arabic and ASL. Huh.

Makes no sense. There are no existing courses in Hebrew, Arabic, or ASL listed. Baker does not have any program, either undergraduate or graduate, in religion or theology. No undergraduate is going to enroll at Baker because it's hired an adjunct to teach intro Hebrew or Arabic. ASL might have a connection to elementary special ed programs, but I suspect that's already available in Kansas City.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 01, 2021, 03:48:23 PM
There are multiple factors related to athletics at the essentially club level.

* Super Dinky got another fifteenish years by focusing on athletes who just wanted to play and would take out loans to do so.  70% of students entered as athletes and the internal stats indicated coaches did nearly all the recruiting attributed to any one person.  The admissions department was nearly useless because they had nothing to sell in terms of majors or other academic consideration.  It was all about getting to play for four years for love of the game.

*At places like SD, the athletes who now just want to play and aren't already part of the right social set are much less useful to the alumni network, although they are handy for current cash flow.  As birth rate reduction hits, those athletes can probably get in elsewhere, which kills the market at the definitely non-elite colleges for pay to play.

* People who are using college to change social class by networking aren't really about the sport--they are about the access to the "right" people.  That's generally not the situation at the S(mall)LAC.  That's the situation at the S(elective)LAC.  The question for Baker is whether they can smoke and mirror enough to look selective (i.e.,  having sufficient networking opportunities) instead of desperate.  Interestingly, many social climbers aren't very good at gauging what counts as selective enough and Baker might squeak another few years by blatantly catering to the people willing to borrow a lot for college for social climbing instead of reinforcing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 01, 2021, 03:59:39 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 01, 2021, 03:48:23 PM

[. . .]

The question for Baker is whether they can smoke and mirror enough to look selective (i.e.,  having sufficient networking opportunities) instead of desperate. 

[. . .]


College Scorecard: Baker admits 88% of applicants.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 01, 2021, 04:40:48 PM
Quote from: spork on March 01, 2021, 03:59:39 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 01, 2021, 03:48:23 PM

[. . .]

The question for Baker is whether they can smoke and mirror enough to look selective (i.e.,  having sufficient networking opportunities) instead of desperate. 

[. . .]


I've worked at two of these which claim a 80-ish percentage acceptance; in the real world this translates to open enrollment 100% acceptance.

College Scorecard: Baker admits 88% of applicants.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on March 01, 2021, 05:36:07 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 01, 2021, 10:39:50 AM
Mount Holyoke has announced that they're shutting down their childcare center.  Faculty are understandably upset:


https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/03/01/mount-holyoke-abruptly-announces-closure-childcare-center


Not presented explicitly as a cost-cutting measure, but that's the only explanation that makes sense.  They have to have known how bad this would look.  Seems like I recall Mount Holyoke appearing on the "Dire Financial Straits" thread before, here or at the old Fora.

It was revealed recently that they actually made this decision months ago but didn't tell faculty or staff because they didn't want to give them a chance to cry foul. (They said something like "cause distress," but what they meant is pretty clear.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 01, 2021, 07:40:17 PM
They have an 800 million endowment for 2300 students. They'll survive. But they might be having trouble meeting enrollment targets, or just for a variety of reasons (numbers too low, or maybe opposite, but couldn't socially distance) with this particular operation.  My school has always said they'll never do onsite childcare. I think regulations do make it harder to do right than you might think.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 02, 2021, 04:17:09 AM
The Holyoke article, if I'm reading it right, says the childcare center only served ten families. It was too expensive for many employees, and that is after the $350,000 subsidy.

If that is correct, it was failing to provide affordable child care to Holyoke faculty and employees who needed it.

Quality child care is not cheap to provide, but sending your kid to child care should not cost more than sending your kid to Mt. Holyoke.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 02, 2021, 06:09:40 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 01, 2021, 07:40:17 PM
They have an 800 million endowment for 2300 students. They'll survive. But they might be having trouble meeting enrollment targets, or just for a variety of reasons (numbers too low, or maybe opposite, but couldn't socially distance) with this particular operation. 

At an 88% acceptance rate, Baker must have already hit the problem of not meeting their enrollment targets.  Even SD at the most desperate was only at 65% acceptance and that was after the winter/spring where we held standards and then went back to the reject pool in July to explain how to appeal the admissions process for the people who were still looking for a college and were willing to pay full list price, usually through loans.

However, having watched admissions close up at SD, people who are merely only aspiring to middle-class and get their information from mass media so they think any private college is a big step in social mobility are pretty susceptible to the easy smoke and mirrors.  A beautiful tree-lined campus with clearly historical buildings two blocks walk from the downtown roundabout that is a green space surrounded by shops and the movie theatre makes a good impression.  Selective tours of the best parts of the historic buildings that culminate in the historic dining hall with fancy candles, white table cloths, and the good china with a three-course meal make a great impression.

Even after enrollment to discover the realities of living in old buildings with minimal climate control, a dining hall that is basically a middle-school cafeteria line with two mains and three sides or a sandwich or a salad bar, and practically zero choices for liberal arts electives, people who are trying to get from lower middle class to solidly middle class stay put.  People with options and knowledge transfer almost immediately to something better.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 02, 2021, 06:39:02 AM
I have some math from Super Dinky that directly answers Lightning's question.  I don't know about Baker or the lacrosse team. 

I do know that Super Dinky could have survived for many more years if they had gone all in on beefing up their successful athletics programs instead of being half-assed about that effort, half-assed about reviving a liberal arts program, and half-assed about moving into new majors that would draw students.

Super Dinky had a pretty good niche market in people who just wanted to play sports and would play sports every season.  These students were not picking college based on major.  Indeed, most of these students probably shouldn't have been in college anywhere because they were not about learning.  Interestingly, the coaches were about preparing for life after college and therefore students were steered towards majors with which they could get jobs after they return to their small towns (basic business that claimed to be sport management, psychology that focused on social work and the court system, criminal justice, and a coaching minor).

SD had a total annual budget between $10M and $15M every year.  The endowment is about the same size, so the main sources of funding were tuition, fees, room and board, rental facilities, and state grants for capital projects.

The head football coach made $35k + benefits.  His assistant coaches made $5k + room and board valued at $10k.  Students were mostly required to live on campus unless they were still living with family.  Thus, each full-pay student was $20k tuition/fees + $10k room and board.

The football team then is:
$70k head coach
$150k 10 assistant coaches

total salary cost: $220k

$4.5 M in player income if all 150 players are full pay and living on campus.

Because of the costs with football, three-sport thing, and a few people being good enough students they received merit scholarships, the take for football alone is more like $2M.  However, $2M on a $15M budget means we all love the football coach and his assistants who recruit from all over the country, not just the 2h drive radius.  This particular coach was also an incredible mentor to his guys and we were incredibly lucky to have him.

Men's basketball is similarly:

$70k (total) for the head coach
$45k for the assistant coaches

total: $115k in salary expenses

$1.5M for 50 players that is more like $750k after expenses and reallocation.  Again, the coaching team recruits from all over the country, not just the local region.

All told with 70% of the students being athletes and the coaches recruiting nationally instead of just within the two hour drive in a dying region,

600 students * 0.7 athlete/student * ($20k tuition and fees + $10k room and board) = $12.6M

Even with a discount rate of 40% on tuition, the fact that some of the student athletes were from the region, and expenses in running the programs, SD was much better off by having athletics than not.  The alumni donated to athletics at high rates, much higher than any other identifiable program and with far fewer restrictions on what athletics could do with the donations.

With pretty good athletic facilities for the region, we made a lot of money renting the facilities for K-12 tournaments, summer camps, and similar endeavors.  A good million dollars a year came from renting the facilities and then doing concessions during rentals.

For perspective on salaries in other parts of the institution, the admissions counselors earned $25k + benefits (about $50k total per individual).  Having the assistant coaches recruiting like crazy on only $15k outlay and doing so much more successfully meant we at the administrative level often discussed whether we should just cut the admissions counselors and pay the assistant coaches a little bit more. 

We also often had assistant coaches making extra money through adjuncting and tutoring center activities.  The student retention rates went up substantially when the students saw the coaches engaged in the formal education side.  All the head coaches taught credit-bearing classes as adjuncts.  Unlike the stories from the DI schools about athletes getting special treatment to be let out of academic endeavors, one contact with a head coach about a student falling behind and that student was in my office asking to help make a plan to do better.

Thus, starting a football team from scratch is probably a terrible idea to save the tiny school.  However, adding a few more teams that need minimal equipment in sports where the national demand exists and isn't being met (e.g., women's wrestling, lacrosse) may be a good investment for $70k for the coach, $1m in equipment that is mostly paid through fundraising, and a new set of students at $30k each.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 02, 2021, 07:37:03 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 02, 2021, 06:39:02 AM

Super Dinky had a pretty good niche market in people who just wanted to play sports and would play sports every season.  These students were not picking college based on major.  Indeed, most of these students probably shouldn't have been in college anywhere because they were not about learning.  Interestingly, the coaches were about preparing for life after college and therefore students were steered towards majors with which they could get jobs after they return to their small towns (basic business that claimed to be sport management, psychology that focused on social work and the court system, criminal justice, and a coaching minor).

We also often had assistant coaches making extra money through adjuncting and tutoring center activities.  The student retention rates went up substantially when the students saw the coaches engaged in the formal education side.  All the head coaches taught credit-bearing classes as adjuncts.  Unlike the stories from the DI schools about athletes getting special treatment to be let out of academic endeavors, one contact with a head coach about a student falling behind and that student was in my office asking to help make a plan to do better.

Sounds like maybe SD's coaches were managing to get some student athletes whose main goal was to prolong their adolescence for a few more years to learn something in spite of themselves.  If you've got the right staff, a college like that might be filling a worthwhile niche after all. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 02, 2021, 10:42:42 AM
Many colleges are doing this. Mine is, and we're bigger than Polly's Super Dinky. Also, people take their intramurals pretty seriously too!

Some of our best students in sciences are very good players of various sports who are extremely dedicated to practice, studying, etc.  Its not all just lunkheads who don't care.

Anyway, its a big part of our model, but is has its limits because you can only put so many people on the team, even if they are second string, and if you fill all the teams up with freshfolks in one year, you may have zero open spots the next year.

In other words, I guess there's no cure-all for not getting enough students who want to come there to learn and are willing to pay for it. Schools like that are always pedaling uphill.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on March 02, 2021, 12:44:14 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 02, 2021, 10:42:42 AM
Many colleges are doing this. Mine is, and we're bigger than Polly's Super Dinky. Also, people take their intramurals pretty seriously too!

Some of our best students in sciences are very good players of various sports who are extremely dedicated to practice, studying, etc.  Its not all just lunkheads who don't care.

Anyway, its a big part of our model, but is has its limits because you can only put so many people on the team, even if they are second string, and if you fill all the teams up with freshfolks in one year, you may have zero open spots the next year.

In other words, I guess there's no cure-all for not getting enough students who want to come there to learn and are willing to pay for it. Schools like that are always pedaling uphill.

I work at a place very similar to Ruralguy and our yield, retention, and graduation rates for our DIV III athletes are higher than the general student population, so it literally pays to recruit these students. Also, we have some "rich kid" sports (golf, equestrian) which tend to attract students from a higher socioeconomic status. This is not always true of course, but there is a clear correlation between our full pay students and certain sports on campus.

And then you have the college students who might not be college students otherwise, who can be essentially bribed to go to college to play a sport they love and don't want to give up. So parents get what they want, students get what they want, and we get a boost to net tuition revenue.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 02, 2021, 01:08:20 PM
Over at CHE  (https://www.chronicle.com/article/why-havent-more-colleges-closed)(remember them?) there is a wrapup of predictions of institutional mortality versus the current status. The conclusion is that colleges are changing, not closing, and only those in the Direst Financial Straits are closing. But the year is young.

Quote from:  Why Haven't More Colleges Closed? --Rebecca Natow

  • Zemsky told The Wall Street Journal in April that the toll could be as high as 200 closures in a year.

  • In Forbes, Richard Vedder wrote that more colleges were vulnerable to closure now "than at any other time in American history" in an article headlined "Why The Coronavirus Will Kill 500-1,000 Colleges."

  • Last January, John Kroger, a former president of Reed College, predicted 100 small-college closures over the course of a decade. By May, he had revised that estimate upward: "More than 750 to 1,000" such schools would now "go under."


How many colleges have shuttered?

Ten — at least that's the number of permanent closures or consolidations between the beginning of March 2020 and the end of January 2021 according to Higher Ed Dive. These 10 have been small, private institutions, and were often in deep financial trouble before the pandemic.

The academy is becoming a more frugal employer, a more virtual entity, and less of a home to the traditional liberal arts — again, extending trends that were already present before the arrival of Covid.

This, it seems, is change enough for now. If history is a guide, the vast majority of colleges will survive the current crisis, as they have survived many other difficult periods in the past. It will be up to us to ensure that higher-education institutions — in their post-pandemic, altered forms — remain true to the important missions of centering student learning, producing valuable research, and adeptly serving their communities.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 02, 2021, 03:39:41 PM
Quote from: Hibush on March 02, 2021, 01:08:20 PM
Over at CHE  (https://www.chronicle.com/article/why-havent-more-colleges-closed)(remember them?) there is a wrapup of predictions of institutional mortality versus the current status. The conclusion is that colleges are changing, not closing, and only those in the Direst Financial Straits are closing. But the year is young.

Quote from:  Why Haven't More Colleges Closed? --Rebecca Natow

  • Zemsky told The Wall Street Journal in April that the toll could be as high as 200 closures in a year.

  • In Forbes, Richard Vedder wrote that more colleges were vulnerable to closure now "than at any other time in American history" in an article headlined "Why The Coronavirus Will Kill 500-1,000 Colleges."

  • Last January, John Kroger, a former president of Reed College, predicted 100 small-college closures over the course of a decade. By May, he had revised that estimate upward: "More than 750 to 1,000" such schools would now "go under."


How many colleges have shuttered?

Ten — at least that's the number of permanent closures or consolidations between the beginning of March 2020 and the end of January 2021 according to Higher Ed Dive. These 10 have been small, private institutions, and were often in deep financial trouble before the pandemic.

The academy is becoming a more frugal employer, a more virtual entity, and less of a home to the traditional liberal arts — again, extending trends that were already present before the arrival of Covid.

This, it seems, is change enough for now. If history is a guide, the vast majority of colleges will survive the current crisis, as they have survived many other difficult periods in the past. It will be up to us to ensure that higher-education institutions — in their post-pandemic, altered forms — remain true to the important missions of centering student learning, producing valuable research, and adeptly serving their communities.

Wonder how Zemsky, Vedder, and Kroger made their estimates?  Were they just making up numbers off the top of their heads, or was there at least a vague methodology involved?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on March 02, 2021, 05:50:58 PM

Quote

Wonder how Zemsky, Vedder, and Kroger made their estimates?  Were they just making up numbers off the top of their heads, or was there at least a vague methodology involved?

To be fair, many schools, even good ones like Duke, have frozen TIAA CREF contributions and have frozen salary increases for the year. Any model starts with assumptions and I would venture that Zemsky, Vedder, and Kroger assumed some degree of "business as usual" instead of the substantial shift to right-sizing/prioritizing of programs seen at many institutions. "Untouchable" majors like math, philosophy, music, etc, have been cut at a number of schools. Schools are now running leaner with cuts to adjuncts, programs, and benefits, all of which have been made easier to implement under the banner of COVID-related reasons for sharp financial changes.  Were it not for COVID, would we see as many schools implement or accelerate changes to their bottom lines? I doubt it. COVID gave schools the reason/excuse/courage to make the cuts they probably needed to make all along.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on March 03, 2021, 06:39:42 AM
Becker College - Worcester MA (https://www.masslive.com/coronavirus/2021/03/becker-college-likely-closing-due-to-economic-impact-of-covid-pandemic-has-stopped-all-recruiting-activities.html)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 03, 2021, 06:51:23 AM
When I was doing institutional research for Super Dinky, there were about a thousand undergrad-only institutions with enrollment of under 1000 students.  Some of those places have a unique mission and significant resources that mean they are not dependent on current enrollment and won't be chasing any warm body to pay this week's bills.

The wave of closures isn't this year because one can often fundraise and borrow for a while to avoid closure today.  The looming problems involve demographic changes that aren't yet at the cliff stage.  The pandemic makes money tight but the case for fundraising is very good.  Thus, the ten closures this year are the same ten who were already going to close.

The pandemic may move up the closures that were going to happen after 2025, but the big wave of closures wasn't going to happen this year. 

From 2018, https://econofact.org/demographic-changes-pose-challenges-for-higher-education

WICHE released an updated report in Dec2020: https://knocking.wiche.edu/executive-summary

The big open questions are rates of going to college and how much people are willing to pay for non-elite colleges for majors that don't directly connect to jobs.  The elite institutions will just reach deeper into qualified pools.  The desirable majors at less prestigious institutions will remain desirable with modernizing adjustments, but the big change of integrating coops and internships has already happened.

The big winner in terms of changing to meet different student demand might be certificate programs at CC as part of stackable credentials.  Recent discussions:

https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/modular-degrees

https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/job-focused-or-cheaper

https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/jobs-and-jobs
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 03, 2021, 07:03:46 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 03, 2021, 06:51:23 AM

The big winner in terms of changing to meet different student demand might be certificate programs at CC as part of stackable credentials.  Recent discussions:

https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/modular-degrees


Interesting comment from the article:
Quote
For the associate to stand on its own, rather than simply amount to a consolation prize, it needed to have enough technical content in its field to be employable. That meant frontloading the technical classes in the program, and backloading the gen eds. A student who stuck around for the bachelor's took more gen eds in the second half than in the first. The unintended side effect was that some of the technical content atrophied a bit while the student tried to complete a degree. When I got the telecom or CIS students in late-sequence electives in political science, I thought of it as a version of a finishing school.

That's the reverse of the usual relationship between gen eds and major courses. Typically, the gen eds are frontloaded, during which time students are supposed to explore. Then, when they commit to a major, they're supposed to jump in with both feet.

The key in any stack of credentials is that each credential has to be able to stand on its own. In this case, that may require the bachelor's to rejigger its own sequence. That's not necessarily a bad thing; I've long suspected that one reason DeVry had better associate degree completion rates than most community colleges was that it frontloaded the courses the students saw as the reason they were there. Once they got over the resistance to being "in school," the gen eds went down more easily.


Since the whole "gen-ed" thing is literally foreign to me, I'm curious. If one of the main reasons for gen-eds was to allow students to explore before they choose a major, what is the justification for having them at the end, i.e. after students have chosen and essentially completed a major?
 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 03, 2021, 07:05:26 AM
Quote from: FishProf on March 03, 2021, 06:39:42 AM
Becker College - Worcester MA (https://www.masslive.com/coronavirus/2021/03/becker-college-likely-closing-due-to-economic-impact-of-covid-pandemic-has-stopped-all-recruiting-activities.html)

Looks like they have an interesting history.  Two tiny schools--one with a very old pedigree--merged in the 1970s. 

They are supposed to have one of the best game design schools in the country.  That's not good news for colleges looking to e-sports for their survival.

That article has a link to an article about a New York University marketing professor named Scott Galloway who predicts that six Massachusetts institutions--Clark, Mount Holyoke, Simmons, Brandeis, UMass Boston, and UMass Dartmouth--are "likely to perish."  I had the impression that Brandeis was supposed to be one of those elite schools that would be around as long as there were still universities.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 03, 2021, 07:19:50 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 03, 2021, 06:51:23 AM
When I was doing institutional research for Super Dinky, there were about a thousand undergrad-only institutions with enrollment of under 1000 students.  Some of those places have a unique mission and significant resources that mean they are not dependent on current enrollment and won't be chasing any warm body to pay this week's bills.

The wave of closures isn't this year because one can often fundraise and borrow for a while to avoid closure today.  The looming problems involve demographic changes that aren't yet at the cliff stage.  The pandemic makes money tight but the case for fundraising is very good.  Thus, the ten closures this year are the same ten who were already going to close.

Fair point.  There will undoubtedly be schools fatally damaged by the pandemic that manage to stave off closing for another year or three.  A bit like the die-offs of trees that occur after the drought is technically over.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 03, 2021, 07:22:42 AM
For people who believe in such things, a core or a simple distribution requirement usually have two or three primary purposes:

1. Building an essential skill base (frosh comp is best example, though obviously some majors need various math).

2. Exposure to some topic or mode of thinking that "someone" thinks is essential to being a -take your pick-  person in society, human on Earth, American, Christian, Westerner.  Examples of this are Western Civ type courses or Great Books courses. Mostly these ideas are rooted in cores that formed in early 20th century, but some have evolved with time to be more broad.

3. Sampling across curriculum to help someone decide on what they might wish to major in, etc.


Obviously "1" should happen fairly early. Its best if 3 happens before end of sophomore year, but some can happen later if you already decided on major anyway.  I think "2" can more or less happen at any time unless its supposed to be some sort of common frosh or soph "experience."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 03, 2021, 07:26:13 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 03, 2021, 07:03:46 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 03, 2021, 06:51:23 AM

The big winner in terms of changing to meet different student demand might be certificate programs at CC as part of stackable credentials.  Recent discussions:

https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/modular-degrees


Interesting comment from the article:
Quote
For the associate to stand on its own, rather than simply amount to a consolation prize, it needed to have enough technical content in its field to be employable. That meant frontloading the technical classes in the program, and backloading the gen eds. A student who stuck around for the bachelor's took more gen eds in the second half than in the first. The unintended side effect was that some of the technical content atrophied a bit while the student tried to complete a degree. When I got the telecom or CIS students in late-sequence electives in political science, I thought of it as a version of a finishing school.

That's the reverse of the usual relationship between gen eds and major courses. Typically, the gen eds are frontloaded, during which time students are supposed to explore. Then, when they commit to a major, they're supposed to jump in with both feet.

The key in any stack of credentials is that each credential has to be able to stand on its own. In this case, that may require the bachelor's to rejigger its own sequence. That's not necessarily a bad thing; I've long suspected that one reason DeVry had better associate degree completion rates than most community colleges was that it frontloaded the courses the students saw as the reason they were there. Once they got over the resistance to being "in school," the gen eds went down more easily.


Since the whole "gen-ed" thing is literally foreign to me, I'm curious. If one of the main reasons for gen-eds was to allow students to explore before they choose a major, what is the justification for having them at the end, i.e. after students have chosen and essentially completed a major?


A big part of gen-ed requirements in the U.S. is an effort to get students to learn things that a couple of generations ago would have been considered part of a normal high school education.  It really is hard to exaggerate how very little large numbers of American students learn in their K-12 education.  That's why you see references to "K-16," with college serving as grades 13-16.  It's reached the point where a high school that graduates a solid majority of students with functional literacy, and a substantial minority with functional numeracy, is considered something of a success.  Jobs that require more than the most basic levels of literacy and numeracy increasingly require college degrees because it takes four years of college, in addition to K-12, to have much assurance of having these qualifications.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on March 03, 2021, 12:27:51 PM
     Ugh! For science majors, the phenomenon of entirely frontloading Gen Eds into the first 2 years is horrible for students. For science majors, it's best to scatter them throughout the entire college experience to allow for more balance in the per semester workload.
    We see the effect of this push to "complete the AA" at our institution. Junior Bio majors with a schedule of Physics 2, Biochemistry, Genetics, AND Physiology all in one semester.  Or even worse, an entering 1st year with a schedule of Chem 1, Bio 1, Physics 1 and Calculus because they have dual credit that covers all their humanities electives, so they have no other options of what to take. It's a literal recipe for student failure as they are in all weed-out classes at the same time

In terms of the purpose of Gen Eds, in addition to what Rural Guy said, it's about being a "well rounded" individual. This is an idea that was at it's height in popularity in the late 1980s, and now is anathema in these days of college as job training centers.
   I loved many of my Gen Ed courses, as they let me engage a different part of my brain than my science courses. But only those students who enjoy school as a whole will see it that way.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 03, 2021, 01:02:06 PM
Not dire straits, but an example of the sorts of hard choices so many schools are having to make about their programs--John Brown University is shutting down its Communication Department.  Enrollment has fallen by half since 2012.  Administration considers it no longer financially feasible to keep it open.


https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2021/mar/03/communication-department-shut-at-john-brown/?news


The student paper--which one presumes is run by the affected students--takes exception to the decision:


http://advocate.jbu.edu/2021/03/01/a-defense-of-jbus-communication-department/


Be cynical about the students if you want, but I don't blame them for being upset at feeling the rug pulled out from under them.  The fact that the job market for aspiring journalists is getting worse and worse due to the changing media environment does not say anything good about where society is headed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 03, 2021, 02:20:40 PM
Most of my students think that its such a slog getting through the courses they like, which to them is their major, that they'd rather not get "distracted" by history or whatever. Occasionally, I'll meet a student who really likes taking a variety of things (and doing well with all of them), but while not super rare, it not that common either.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 03, 2021, 02:29:09 PM
Quote from: FishProf on March 03, 2021, 06:39:42 AM
Becker College - Worcester MA (https://www.masslive.com/coronavirus/2021/03/becker-college-likely-closing-due-to-economic-impact-of-covid-pandemic-has-stopped-all-recruiting-activities.html)

I find what's at the end of the article amusing: Becker was not on dimwit Galloway's list of MA colleges that are doomed, but Clark, Mt. Holyoke, Brandeis, UMass-Boston, and UMass-Dartmouth was. And then the first item listed as a related story is "Becker College Police Chief David Bousquet accused of crashing into car while driving drunk with loaded gun."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on March 03, 2021, 02:57:30 PM
Quote from: spork on March 03, 2021, 02:29:09 PM
I find what's at the end of the article amusing: Becker was not on dimwit Galloway's list of MA colleges that are doomed, but Clark, Mt. Holyoke, Brandeis, UMass-Boston, and UMass-Dartmouth was.

Yep, somewhere on here is a thread where I have a long rant about the "model" he was using after digging into his documentation (such as it was). Literally he picked some things he thought were important and weighted them equally (based on what I have no idea), and then divided them into equal 4ths (i.e., by definition 25% were "doomed").

To make things even worse as I recall he only included ranked colleges or some such, so that's probably why it wasn't included and also means even if his criteria were valid the bottom 25% on his list would actually be pretty high up a list that included all colleges.

I wouldn't have passed it as an undergrad project, but he sure got a lot of media millage out of it.

You really would think that realizing your "model" is classifying major public university campuses as "doomed" would make you question your model. . .
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 03, 2021, 05:33:22 PM
Quote from: Puget on March 03, 2021, 02:57:30 PM

You really would think that realizing your "model" is classifying major public university campuses as "doomed" would make you question your model. . .

Some would appropriately question the models accuracy. But others would recognize its potential to get clicks. And that may be more important.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on March 03, 2021, 09:55:08 PM
Galloway is an idiot.   The state would never ever ever kill off any UMass school, and there is a real market for them too-- UMDartmouth, about ten miles from me, actually absorbed a private law school a few years back, and became (believe it or not) the only public law school in Mass.   UM Boston is, despite decades of mismanagement/ open corruption, vital to the core community it serves in the city.  Mt. Holyoke is a rich SLAC, very well regarded (better than Smith) and has a core constituency willing to pay for it, and oodles of $ for financial aid.   Brandeis has a similar well-funded core cachement area.   Clark and Simmons have problems, but they have grad programs that will keep them afloat.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 04, 2021, 04:15:48 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 03, 2021, 07:05:26 AM
That article has a link to an article about a New York University marketing professor named Scott Galloway who predicts that six Massachusetts institutions--Clark, Mount Holyoke, Simmons, Brandeis, UMass Boston, and UMass Dartmouth--are "likely to perish."  I had the impression that Brandeis was supposed to be one of those elite schools that would be around as long as there were still universities.

Brandeis was founded in part because Boston-area Middlesex university was perishing and desperately looking for someone to buy their campus. This startup group jumped on the opportunity. Goes to show that what we think of as eternal is a result of the same kind of turmoil we see as uncommon instability.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on March 04, 2021, 05:55:41 AM
Brandeis has a billion dollar endowment.  While that doesn't solve every problem in the world, it certainly solves a few.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 04, 2021, 07:19:09 AM
Quote from: FishProf on March 03, 2021, 06:39:42 AM
Becker College - Worcester MA (https://www.masslive.com/coronavirus/2021/03/becker-college-likely-closing-due-to-economic-impact-of-covid-pandemic-has-stopped-all-recruiting-activities.html)

Interestingly IPEDS shows that Becker's FTE undergraduate enrollment since FY 2006-07 was at its lowest that year -- 1368.  In 2010 it had climbed to 1770, then down to 1514 in 2012, and peaked at 1844 in 2016. By FY 2019, the last year of data in IPEDS at the moment, it had fallen to 1580. So I'm wondering if there was a major collapse in the incoming classes for fall 2019 and fall 2020.

Form 990s show deficits of about a quarter million and half million dollars for FYs 2018 and 2019, respectively. Before that the budget was in the black. Usually net margins were very small, but it didn't have the multimillion dollar deficits in multiple years like many of the institutions discussed on this thread.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 04, 2021, 07:31:09 AM
Quote from: Hibush on March 04, 2021, 04:15:48 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 03, 2021, 07:05:26 AM
That article has a link to an article about a New York University marketing professor named Scott Galloway who predicts that six Massachusetts institutions--Clark, Mount Holyoke, Simmons, Brandeis, UMass Boston, and UMass Dartmouth--are "likely to perish."  I had the impression that Brandeis was supposed to be one of those elite schools that would be around as long as there were still universities.

Brandeis was founded in part because Boston-area Middlesex university was perishing and desperately looking for someone to buy their campus. This startup group jumped on the opportunity. Goes to show that what we think of as eternal is a result of the same kind of turmoil we see as uncommon instability.

And Becker itself, though described as "one of the 25 oldest institutions in the United States," has actually existed in its current form only since 1974.  It was a merger of two tiny institutions, one founded in the late 1700s.  It goes to show how every institution is different.  In this case two "super dinky" schools were able to merge to form a viable entity that has lasted four decades.  Whereas polly's SD evidently had no handy neighbors to merge with.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 04, 2021, 08:22:18 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on March 04, 2021, 05:55:41 AM
Brandeis has a billion dollar endowment.  While that doesn't solve every problem in the world, it certainly solves a few.
According to the Wiki article, Albert Einstein was the organizing group's public face and they wanted to call it Einstein University. But he quit when the fundraisers were publicly overstating their fundraising success to get more donors to what is now a billion-dollar endowment. Their technique worked, so Einstein's principles about telling the truth were not appropriate to the situation.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 05, 2021, 02:02:24 AM
John Carroll University starts firing tenured professors:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/03/05/john-carroll-u-dramatically-alters-terms-tenure (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/03/05/john-carroll-u-dramatically-alters-terms-tenure).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 05, 2021, 04:11:23 AM
Quote from: spork on March 05, 2021, 02:02:24 AM
John Carroll University starts firing tenured professors:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/03/05/john-carroll-u-dramatically-alters-terms-tenure (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/03/05/john-carroll-u-dramatically-alters-terms-tenure).

John Carroll is described as "small Jesuit institution in Ohio".  Does that description not contain three strikes against financial viability in the current situation? 

When the finances are so bad that you are taking operating expenses from the endowment principal and firing tenured professors, there is no positive story for a Board of Trustees to tell. But this one seems especially bad in trying to spin layoffs as an effort to save the institution of tenure while ignoring what that institution requires of them. One of the things it requires is that they be honest, but that is clearly too much to expect.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on March 05, 2021, 06:03:54 AM
There are also two other Catholic SLACs a few miles away (Notre Dame College and Ursuline). Schools are ripe for a merger.

This line is some baloney: "John Carroll's holistic approach to education is why so many professors wanted to teach there in the first place, she said..."

Does anyone believe the vast majority sought out John Carroll or was the university was hiring at the right time?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on March 05, 2021, 06:53:12 AM
On a related note: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/03/05/narrowing-enrollment-pipeline-pressures-roman-catholic-colleges
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 05, 2021, 07:16:43 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 04, 2021, 07:31:09 AM

And Becker itself, though described as "one of the 25 oldest institutions in the United States," has actually existed in its current form only since 1974.  It was a merger of two tiny institutions, one founded in the late 1700s.  It goes to show how every institution is different.  In this case two "super dinky" schools were able to merge to form a viable entity that has lasted four decades.  Whereas polly's SD evidently had no handy neighbors to merge with.

SD had a handy neighbor and that handy neighbor now has the handful of SD's programs that weren't doomed.  One program in particular just moved three miles down the road as students, faculty, and equipment.  The only position lost was SD department chair as that person became regular faculty and the person who had been leading a start-up effort in that area became chair of a full department.  Several other departments at the nearest neighbor and elsewhere in the region acquired SD TT/T faculty as visiting faculty as the expedient way to deal with the SD transfer students.  The SD humanities faculty generally were just out of a job in the region, but the major faculty tended to find a job in the region by the start of the next year.

In the 70s when SD was doing really well and the near neighbor was not, SD declined a merger.  As SD struggled, every new president suggested a merger and the neighbor declined.  The latest president declined and did great things with the neighbor in the past eight years.  In the past ten years, SD picked up many students and faculty as programs closed in the region.  SD got a whole softball team at one point by being Johnny on the spot with transfer scholarships.  Thus, while the situation has been dire for twenty years for many super dinkies, the slow trickle of closings has benefited the institutions one ring farther out in circuling the drain.

The athletic mission for players to be most of the student body only works with many teams to have sufficient slots.  Just the one big new team like football does fill up fast and then the recruiting is done for years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 05, 2021, 07:27:01 AM
Quote from: Hibush on March 03, 2021, 05:33:22 PM
Quote from: Puget on March 03, 2021, 02:57:30 PM

You really would think that realizing your "model" is classifying major public university campuses as "doomed" would make you question your model. . .

Some would appropriately question the models accuracy. But others would recognize its potential to get clicks. And that may be more important.

It definitely got clicks while missing nearly all the Super-Dinky-like institutions that will merge, close, or do a complete transformation in the next ten years.  There's a white paper from 2016(?) that  I can't find that in the five minutes before I go to work that had much more reasonable projections based on size, resources, name-brand recognition, and demographic shifts compared to current student body demographics.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on March 05, 2021, 10:49:19 PM
Mergers are very common in prep school land, as witnessed by the numerous such schools with hyphenated names, some of which several hyphens (I know of one with three).  But these often were motivated by consolidations of one boys' and one girls' school, something very much less likely to occur today, or by having a school absorb a specialized school that was struggling, in order to maintain said specialty program.   In American higher ed, otoh, it is not my sense that real mergers take place nearly so often, and many potential ones that we hear of either do not go through, or the 'merger' really is just an asset grab, with little even-handedness associated with the merger.  Or am I missing something?   In any case, most mergers make large numbers of faculty redundant.   And what usually happens to unused campuses of dead schools?   What happened to Super Dinky's campus?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on March 05, 2021, 11:15:44 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 02, 2021, 06:39:02 AM
I have some math from Super Dinky that directly answers Lightning's question.  I don't know about Baker or the lacrosse team. 

I do know that Super Dinky could have survived for many more years if they had gone all in on beefing up their successful athletics programs instead of being half-assed about that effort, half-assed about reviving a liberal arts program, and half-assed about moving into new majors that would draw students.

Super Dinky had a pretty good niche market in people who just wanted to play sports and would play sports every season.  These students were not picking college based on major.  Indeed, most of these students probably shouldn't have been in college anywhere because they were not about learning.  Interestingly, the coaches were about preparing for life after college and therefore students were steered towards majors with which they could get jobs after they return to their small towns (basic business that claimed to be sport management, psychology that focused on social work and the court system, criminal justice, and a coaching minor).

SD had a total annual budget between $10M and $15M every year.  The endowment is about the same size, so the main sources of funding were tuition, fees, room and board, rental facilities, and state grants for capital projects.

The head football coach made $35k + benefits.  His assistant coaches made $5k + room and board valued at $10k.  Students were mostly required to live on campus unless they were still living with family.  Thus, each full-pay student was $20k tuition/fees + $10k room and board.

The football team then is:
$70k head coach
$150k 10 assistant coaches

total salary cost: $220k

$4.5 M in player income if all 150 players are full pay and living on campus.

Because of the costs with football, three-sport thing, and a few people being good enough students they received merit scholarships, the take for football alone is more like $2M.  However, $2M on a $15M budget means we all love the football coach and his assistants who recruit from all over the country, not just the 2h drive radius.  This particular coach was also an incredible mentor to his guys and we were incredibly lucky to have him.

Men's basketball is similarly:

$70k (total) for the head coach
$45k for the assistant coaches

total: $115k in salary expenses

$1.5M for 50 players that is more like $750k after expenses and reallocation.  Again, the coaching team recruits from all over the country, not just the local region.

All told with 70% of the students being athletes and the coaches recruiting nationally instead of just within the two hour drive in a dying region,

600 students * 0.7 athlete/student * ($20k tuition and fees + $10k room and board) = $12.6M

Even with a discount rate of 40% on tuition, the fact that some of the student athletes were from the region, and expenses in running the programs, SD was much better off by having athletics than not.  The alumni donated to athletics at high rates, much higher than any other identifiable program and with far fewer restrictions on what athletics could do with the donations.

With pretty good athletic facilities for the region, we made a lot of money renting the facilities for K-12 tournaments, summer camps, and similar endeavors.  A good million dollars a year came from renting the facilities and then doing concessions during rentals.

For perspective on salaries in other parts of the institution, the admissions counselors earned $25k + benefits (about $50k total per individual).  Having the assistant coaches recruiting like crazy on only $15k outlay and doing so much more successfully meant we at the administrative level often discussed whether we should just cut the admissions counselors and pay the assistant coaches a little bit more. 

We also often had assistant coaches making extra money through adjuncting and tutoring center activities.  The student retention rates went up substantially when the students saw the coaches engaged in the formal education side.  All the head coaches taught credit-bearing classes as adjuncts.  Unlike the stories from the DI schools about athletes getting special treatment to be let out of academic endeavors, one contact with a head coach about a student falling behind and that student was in my office asking to help make a plan to do better.

Thus, starting a football team from scratch is probably a terrible idea to save the tiny school.  However, adding a few more teams that need minimal equipment in sports where the national demand exists and isn't being met (e.g., women's wrestling, lacrosse) may be a good investment for $70k for the coach, $1m in equipment that is mostly paid through fundraising, and a new set of students at $30k each.

This is great. Thank you. One question, though. How much "facilities and administration" was factored into the cost of athletics? Any at all?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 06, 2021, 07:22:35 AM
Sure, cost of facilities and administration matter.  However, at the participatory level, the facilities are mediocre.  They aren't multimillions of dollars to run annually; the underfunded public high school across town has similar facilities.  There was a flood in the past decade and parts of the athletic complex were just closed off because the donations weren't sufficient to do the repairs.  The indoor swimming pool was just abandoned.  The various locker rooms were very nice because the relevant alumni donated materials and many volunteers spent several weekends doing the work to recover from the flood.  The rentals to k-12 tournaments and camps made money acoounting for maintenance expenses.

The direct administration was an athletic director at $80k (salary + benefits), an administrative assistant who was shared with three other departments, and a Title IX coordinator who was also a coach and TT faculty.  The athletic director frequently drove the microbus to competitions as a way to save money.

Facilities for the entire college transitioned to an outside contract during my time at SD and the first facilities director was incredible about finding ways to be more efficient by just closing off things too expensive to maintain.  He also ended up as assistant coach to two sports for minimal extra money.

Uniforms and equipment were often paid for by donations.  Annual general giving to the college was hard in large part because most alumni felt connected to their teams, not the faculty or the academic side of the college.  Getting money for a new scoreboard, new microbus, or even a new sport was much easier than raising money for new academic programs, scholarships, or capital campaigns.

Alumni showed up for athletic award ceremonies, even with no offspring or other award winners, in such numbers that we had to use the full gym with multiple basket courts.  We held the academic awards in a room that seats about 100 because few parents would even attend since it meant arriving Thursday night for the Saturday graduation ceremony.

The facts remain that very few of the athletes would have been at SD if they hadn't been nationally recruited.  SD had students from nearly every state, had an impressively high Pell grant rate for a private college, and had checkbox diversity demographics much more reflective of the nation than the greater than 90% white county.  Having access to a different pool of prospective students saved SD in the early 2000s. 

One big factor that killed SD at the end was the new president who made poor decisions that made athletics much less pleasant day-to-day in an effort to transition to a liberal arts residential campus intellectual experience.  The administrative overhead and new facilities investments for the transition efforts were a net loss in terms of attracting new students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 06, 2021, 07:33:11 AM
We have discussed MacMurray College in Illinois closing.  Detroit Free Press has a pretty good article outlining why these tiny struggling colleges that have been circling the drain for decades will finally close in the next ten years.  Being small doesn't mean death as Illinois College indicates, but finding a coherent mission that appeals to students is necessary.

https://www.freep.com/in-depth/news/education/2021/02/12/illinois-college-macmurray-college-liberal-arts/6122046002/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 06, 2021, 07:41:46 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 05, 2021, 10:49:19 PM
And what usually happens to unused campuses of dead schools?   What happened to Super Dinky's campus?

Campuses are usually sold for the land if nothing else.

Super Dinky's athletic facilities were sold as a block to someone who plans to rent them for tournaments, camps, and recreational leagues.  Other parts of the campus are valuable for the land with mature trees close to downtown.  I expect most of the buildings to be torn down with something new built.  Several buildings had already been condemned with the city requiring annual paperwork and a fine on why those condemned buildings were still empty instead of renovated or demolished.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 06, 2021, 07:47:02 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 05, 2021, 10:49:19 PM
But these often were motivated by consolidations of one boys' and one girls' school, something very much less likely to occur today

One reason that that New England and the Midwest have so many tiny struggling colleges is those colleges started as single gender and then both went coed.  The article I just linked mentioned that MacMurray College and Illinois College started that way and that's why there were two colleges in a city of 20k.

The tiny colleges that didn't merge as part of the coed wave in the sixties could still merge, but, yeah, gen ed faculty will lose their jobs due to redundancies.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 06, 2021, 12:36:40 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 06, 2021, 07:33:11 AM
We have discussed MacMurray College in Illinois closing.  Detroit Free Press has a pretty good article outlining why these tiny struggling colleges that have been circling the drain for decades will finally close in the next ten years.  Being small doesn't mean death as Illinois College indicates, but finding a coherent mission that appeals to students is necessary.

https://www.freep.com/in-depth/news/education/2021/02/12/illinois-college-macmurray-college-liberal-arts/6122046002/

The article reveals a truth that is too often ignored or hidden: the business model of private colleges depends on wealthy students. Some proportion of each class must end up in a position to each donate millions or tens of millions, to feel good enough about their experience to do so, and to have a tradition of such donations.

Quote from: Detroit Free PressStudents were blue-collar, more so than at Illinois College on the other side of town. Students at MacMurray studied teaching, nursing, sports management. Students at Illinois College tended to be studying business, premed and prelaw.

The split in occupations played out in donations to the schools after graduation, with many MacMurray alumni having great careers, but not necessarily the kind that left millions of dollars in income available to be donated back. That's reflected in each college's endowment — funds schools create for long-term financial protection.

The story describes how the MacMurray administration was so busy handling year-to-year crises that thinking on that level never entered their planning. Illinois College did, and they are doing fine despite many superficial similarities. The future donors don't need to get exotic-for-Illinois careers. It could be a car dealer in Springfield, a contractor in Edwardsville, or a brokerage branch VP in suburban Chicago.

As a prospective professor, student or donor, how does one check whether a school understands this critical part of their business plan?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 06, 2021, 02:05:33 PM
You really have to ask people at the school about the alumni base, particularly at the Development Office.
In absence of that, discuss this with individuals and see what they know about recent donations, who gave them, and what they were studying at the school when they were there. This may be difficult since many alums only give large gifts when they hit 70 or so and there won't be very many around the college who know much about their time there. Try to get a sense of what recent grads went on to do and if they have kept up connection to the college.  It is true that this sort of thinking can help a college through difficult times.

Given what was said in the article though, I wonder how much of this is original SES of the students and not some sort of "Valued added" SES based on major of the students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 06, 2021, 02:30:50 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 06, 2021, 02:05:33 PM
Given what was said in the article though, I wonder how much of this is original SES of the students and not some sort of "Valued added" SES based on major of the students.

A fair amount is always due to current SES.  The alumni network is made up of graduates.  The successful regional business network is usually very different from the went-back-to-hometown-and-got-the-same-job-from-family-friends-and-neighbors network.  As I've recently written, the networking aspects of college are important to people who are already solidly middle-class and are aspiring to more.  The people who are hoping that a college degree will make them middle-class participants often aren't savvy investors in education, which means smoke and mirrors can work for a while.  After all, an expensive private school must be better than the cheap regional comprehensive, right?


https://www.payscale.com/college-roi and similiar sites can be fun reads because it's clear that networking can be a driver for success.  A solid major that is hard to otherwise learn is another good driver for success.  Sorting the table by negative 20 year return on investment means one doesn't have to scroll very far before the pattern of undistinguished places with low graduation rates (aka small alumni base) becomes clear.

One thing that hurts tiny schools is having a total alumni base for fundraising that is smaller than two or three years of new graduates at larger places.  SD had 7k total living alumni (state flagship graduated about 8k new bachelor alumni every year) and $1k at SD was a large enough gift to be on the annual big donor list.  In the years after we left SD, we made the named donor list every year for the couple hundred dollars that Mr. Mer sent to his erstwhile colleagues in the advancement office.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 06, 2021, 06:21:45 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 06, 2021, 02:05:33 PMGiven what was said in the article though, I wonder how much of this is original SES of the students and not some sort of "Valued added" SES based on major of the students.
While high SES students have better prospects going in, the "system" seems designed to give more added value for those starting with high SES and less for those starting lower. If, as a faculty member and part of the system, one would like to see that turn out differently, there are approaches to advising and teaching that could help.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 06, 2021, 07:17:00 PM
An attempt at value-added rankings https://www.brookings.edu/research/beyond-college-rankings-a-value-added-approach-to-assessing-two-and-four-year-schools/

An attempt to quantify a social mobility index https://socialmobilityindex.org

A different look at higher ed institutions by social mobility https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 06, 2021, 07:39:04 PM
The data for my school on the first one you list is laughably wrong. Must be some sort of database
query issue, but it's way way wrong.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 06, 2021, 09:19:00 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 06, 2021, 07:39:04 PM
The data for my school on the first one you list is laughably wrong. Must be some sort of database
query issue, but it's way way wrong.

Interesting because when I look at your school, the values seem in-line with other websites that report for institutions.

Perhaps your institution has a reporting issue (IPEDS is a huge pain for reporting) or is interesting with the fine distinctions on the not-quite-identical questions for different reports (don't get me started on the annoyance of all the reporting requirements).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 07, 2021, 08:21:47 AM
I'll cross check.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 08, 2021, 08:24:19 AM
Polly-

I cross-checked with IPEDS and with AAUP salary data and maybe things are slightly off (probably just to differing years being used), but not too bad. It does mean my salary is worse than I thought or more likely, just that a handful are making a lot that sets off the averages (not sure why means aren't used).
Ah well....its not like I'm starving, in a crappy house or not collecting retirement bucks...all of that is on track.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: stemer on March 09, 2021, 11:04:42 AM
Quote from: Mobius on March 05, 2021, 06:03:54 AM
<snip>
This line is some baloney: "John Carroll's holistic approach to education is why so many professors wanted to teach there in the first place, she said..."
<snip>
"[put here any second- or third-tier SLAC]  holistic approach to education is why so many professors want to teach here ..."

It is part of our standard administrative pep-talk every time we ask to raise the hiring salary and avoid another failed search.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on March 09, 2021, 01:24:29 PM
The statement about a holistic approach made me think of Hampshire College, who was dealing with a financial crisis just before the pandemic. They are one of the few places where the statement about a holistic approach might ring mostly true.  I see they are surviving, but is it really viable longer term?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on March 09, 2021, 03:09:10 PM
I'm just not buying someone really wants to work at an underfunded liberal arts college because of the liberal arts aspect. It's a job that was available. I'd buy the argument if it were a selective and well-off LAC, but then it's not the holistic approach, but the resources that made it attractive.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on March 10, 2021, 08:27:00 AM
I'm seeing at least one full professor in Ohio saying they got fired today, on Twitter. Guess that's from John Carroll.

Though I'm guessing that they are still working until the end of the semester.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: stemer on March 10, 2021, 11:16:29 AM
Quote from: downer on March 10, 2021, 08:27:00 AM
I'm seeing at least one full professor in Ohio saying they got fired today, on Twitter. Guess that's from John Carroll.

Though I'm guessing that they are still working until the end of the semester.
Nope. Otterbein University.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on March 10, 2021, 11:21:46 AM
Quote from: stemer on March 10, 2021, 11:16:29 AM
Quote from: downer on March 10, 2021, 08:27:00 AM
I'm seeing at least one full professor in Ohio saying they got fired today, on Twitter. Guess that's from John Carroll.

Though I'm guessing that they are still working until the end of the semester.
Nope. Otterbein University.

Was this a "dire fire" or something else? I couldn't find any press on layoffs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: stemer on March 10, 2021, 11:53:51 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on March 10, 2021, 11:21:46 AM
Quote from: stemer on March 10, 2021, 11:16:29 AM
Quote from: downer on March 10, 2021, 08:27:00 AM
I'm seeing at least one full professor in Ohio saying they got fired today, on Twitter. Guess that's from John Carroll.
Though I'm guessing that they are still working until the end of the semester.
Nope. Otterbein University.
Was this a "dire fire" or something else? I couldn't find any press on layoffs.

From the Tweet of the faculty that was laid off (https://twitter.com/NathanielProf), the administration removed a degree from their program...He was tenured for eight years and promoted to full two years ago. His line: "No one hires 50-year-old teaching professors." struck a chord...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on March 10, 2021, 11:56:41 AM
Quote from: stemer on March 10, 2021, 11:53:51 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on March 10, 2021, 11:21:46 AM
Quote from: stemer on March 10, 2021, 11:16:29 AM
Quote from: downer on March 10, 2021, 08:27:00 AM
I'm seeing at least one full professor in Ohio saying they got fired today, on Twitter. Guess that's from John Carroll.
Though I'm guessing that they are still working until the end of the semester.
Nope. Otterbein University.
Was this a "dire fire" or something else? I couldn't find any press on layoffs.

From the Tweet of the faculty that was laid off (https://twitter.com/NathanielProf), the administration removed a degree from their program...He was tenured for eight years and promoted to full two years ago. His line: "No one hires 50-year-old teaching professors." struck a chord...

I saw that. I get that he is feeling bad, but he is actually wrong. I've seen people older than that get teaching jobs. Of course, they may have to move somewhere even more obscure than they were before.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: stemer on March 10, 2021, 12:12:39 PM
Quote from: downer on March 10, 2021, 11:56:41 AM
I saw that. I get that he is feeling bad, but he is actually wrong. I've seen people older than that get teaching jobs. Of course, they may have to move somewhere even more obscure than they were before.
He is not wrong, he knows the Physics market and he is a realist. Most job openings for Physics in higher-ed are for postdocs and/or TT in R1s.  A 50-year old Physics full professor from a LAC trying to find another teaching job in a comparable teaching-focused institution these days is a non-trivial exercise. Getting a job at an R1 without having a history of grants and by competing against young folks eager to get a permanent position after they did numerous postdocs, is close to impossible. All that notwithstanding geographical preference.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on March 10, 2021, 12:36:24 PM
Quote from: downer on March 10, 2021, 11:56:41 AM
Quote from: stemer on March 10, 2021, 11:53:51 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on March 10, 2021, 11:21:46 AM
Quote from: stemer on March 10, 2021, 11:16:29 AM
Quote from: downer on March 10, 2021, 08:27:00 AM
I'm seeing at least one full professor in Ohio saying they got fired today, on Twitter. Guess that's from John Carroll.
Though I'm guessing that they are still working until the end of the semester.
Nope. Otterbein University.
Was this a "dire fire" or something else? I couldn't find any press on layoffs.

From the Tweet of the faculty that was laid off (https://twitter.com/NathanielProf), the administration removed a degree from their program...He was tenured for eight years and promoted to full two years ago. His line: "No one hires 50-year-old teaching professors." struck a chord...

I saw that. I get that he is feeling bad, but he is actually wrong. I've seen people older than that get teaching jobs. Of course, they may have to move somewhere even more obscure than they were before.

My current place often hires people in their late 40s. Too bad we aren't hiring for physics this cycle. He'd be awfully competitive and while the city isn't that great, the region is.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on March 10, 2021, 02:47:47 PM
Quote from: stemer on March 10, 2021, 12:12:39 PM
Quote from: downer on March 10, 2021, 11:56:41 AM
I saw that. I get that he is feeling bad, but he is actually wrong. I've seen people older than that get teaching jobs. Of course, they may have to move somewhere even more obscure than they were before.
He is not wrong, he knows the Physics market and he is a realist. Most job openings for Physics in higher-ed are for postdocs and/or TT in R1s.  A 50-year old Physics full professor from a LAC trying to find another teaching job in a comparable teaching-focused institution these days is a non-trivial exercise. Getting a job at an R1 without having a history of grants and by competing against young folks eager to get a permanent position after they did numerous postdocs, is close to impossible. All that notwithstanding geographical preference.

We have 2 openings....
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: stemer on March 10, 2021, 03:17:19 PM
Quote from: FishProf on March 10, 2021, 02:47:47 PM
Quote from: stemer on March 10, 2021, 12:12:39 PM
Quote from: downer on March 10, 2021, 11:56:41 AM
I saw that. I get that he is feeling bad, but he is actually wrong. I've seen people older than that get teaching jobs. Of course, they may have to move somewhere even more obscure than they were before.
He is not wrong, he knows the Physics market and he is a realist. Most job openings for Physics in higher-ed are for postdocs and/or TT in R1s.  A 50-year old Physics full professor from a LAC trying to find another teaching job in a comparable teaching-focused institution these days is a non-trivial exercise. Getting a job at an R1 without having a history of grants and by competing against young folks eager to get a permanent position after they did numerous postdocs, is close to impossible. All that notwithstanding geographical preference.

We have 2 openings....
If so, be kind and contact him, don't tell me! I provided the Tweet.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 10, 2021, 07:35:32 PM
He'd probably be somewhat competitive for similar jobs if he was good and not just trudging through the system. But he wouldn't necessarily look a lot better than some of the other top candidates. The problem is that not that many similar schools are hiring in physics just now. There will probably be more retirements in a few years, but then he'd be close to retirement himself and enrollments might not be high enough to support hiring replacement physicists.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on March 11, 2021, 05:25:00 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 10, 2021, 07:35:32 PM
He'd probably be somewhat competitive for similar jobs if he was good and not just trudging through the system. But he wouldn't necessarily look a lot better than some of the other top candidates. The problem is that not that many similar schools are hiring in physics just now. There will probably be more retirements in a few years, but then he'd be close to retirement himself and enrollments might not be high enough to support hiring replacement physicists.

I read some of the thread. He's stated that he's not interested in continuing to teach students who don't want to be there (college and high school jobs) and not interested in uprooting family because wife's job pays better and has better benefits than his did. Overall tenor of his responses to well-meant suggestions indicates near-burnout and shock, which is a bad time to be active on social media. Too easy to say things that you don't want people to find when you're ready to job hunt. And no matter how often we tell people not to Google applicants, some will.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 11, 2021, 05:29:06 AM
Quote from: Vkw10 on March 11, 2021, 05:25:00 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 10, 2021, 07:35:32 PM
He'd probably be somewhat competitive for similar jobs if he was good and not just trudging through the system. But he wouldn't necessarily look a lot better than some of the other top candidates. The problem is that not that many similar schools are hiring in physics just now. There will probably be more retirements in a few years, but then he'd be close to retirement himself and enrollments might not be high enough to support hiring replacement physicists.

I read some of the thread. He's stated that he's not interested in continuing to teach students who don't want to be there (college and high school jobs) and not interested in uprooting family because wife's job pays better and has better benefits than his did. Overall tenor of his responses to well-meant suggestions indicates near-burnout and shock, which is a bad time to be active on social media. Too easy to say things that you don't want people to find when you're ready to job hunt. And no matter how often we tell people not to Google applicants, some will.

I'm curious - why would you tell people not to Google? There have been people "retired" from positions for illegal behaviour, such as domestic abuse. I wouldn't want to touch someone like that with a 10 foot pole, no matter what their academic qualifications.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on March 11, 2021, 06:05:00 AM
Quote from: Vkw10 on March 11, 2021, 05:25:00 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 10, 2021, 07:35:32 PM
He'd probably be somewhat competitive for similar jobs if he was good and not just trudging through the system. But he wouldn't necessarily look a lot better than some of the other top candidates. The problem is that not that many similar schools are hiring in physics just now. There will probably be more retirements in a few years, but then he'd be close to retirement himself and enrollments might not be high enough to support hiring replacement physicists.

I read some of the thread. He's stated that he's not interested in continuing to teach students who don't want to be there (college and high school jobs) and not interested in uprooting family because wife's job pays better and has better benefits than his did. Overall tenor of his responses to well-meant suggestions indicates near-burnout and shock, which is a bad time to be active on social media. Too easy to say things that you don't want people to find when you're ready to job hunt. And no matter how often we tell people not to Google applicants, some will.

The very wise Maya Angelou once said

When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 11, 2021, 06:38:48 AM
Right. Thank you for those details. I should read into this a bit more, but honestly, my answer is the honest answer of what he could do in*in academia*. Maybe he'd have a shot at some community colleges or "directionals" too, but not if he's burnt out over student attitudes.  As for outside of academia, others here have given answers to that either inside or outside of this thread.

Another honest reply: This could be me. Almost literally. I'm in a similar field, similar age, similar enough school. We can survive for a little while, probably, and I doubt Physics would be anything close to first on the chopping block, but we're not the most safe either.  Am I viable? In the broad Physics market, no.
For some similar jobs, maybe. For some admin jobs, maybe. For some outside of academia, again, maybe, but I haven't taken a serious look in a few years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on March 11, 2021, 08:16:20 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 11, 2021, 05:29:06 AM
Quote from: Vkw10 on March 11, 2021, 05:25:00 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 10, 2021, 07:35:32 PM
He'd probably be somewhat competitive for similar jobs if he was good and not just trudging through the system. But he wouldn't necessarily look a lot better than some of the other top candidates. The problem is that not that many similar schools are hiring in physics just now. There will probably be more retirements in a few years, but then he'd be close to retirement himself and enrollments might not be high enough to support hiring replacement physicists.

I read some of the thread. He's stated that he's not interested in continuing to teach students who don't want to be there (college and high school jobs) and not interested in uprooting family because wife's job pays better and has better benefits than his did. Overall tenor of his responses to well-meant suggestions indicates near-burnout and shock, which is a bad time to be active on social media. Too easy to say things that you don't want people to find when you're ready to job hunt. And no matter how often we tell people not to Google applicants, some will.

I'm curious - why would you tell people not to Google? There have been people "retired" from positions for illegal behaviour, such as domestic abuse. I wouldn't want to touch someone like that with a 10 foot pole, no matter what their academic qualifications.

The official background check should turn up anything criminal or otherwise compromising about the person's background.

The problem with Google is the dumb stuff that can come up. "He used to date my wife! A friend of a friend says she was a total drunk in college!"
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 11, 2021, 10:31:17 AM
Actually, background checks can be inaccurate.  Legal and criminal record keeping is cumbersome and extremely haphazard, and the data is humongous----I had a family member who got in a wee bit of trouble with the law and saw this firsthand.  There is no national database of criminal convictions.  Agencies, sometimes even within the same county or city, do not talk to each other.  Sometimes the police themselves cannot get a hold of legal documents, at least not without a great deal of legwork, and then sometimes they cannot figure out the legalities of their own records.  Truly, I saw this.

And then there are the things that only Google will reveal. 

Our training is to only use whatever is in the job packet and not to pray at the alter of the Great Info God Google (which were the dictates at our last employer), but as my wife, who will be on a search committee very soon, just said to me, rightly or wrongly, "I'm going to make sure we don't hire a flaming @zz#$*&!"  Okay then.  Google it is.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 11, 2021, 10:49:26 AM
I always Google, but almost always as a final thing to do as we invite in finalists. So, its more of a last great filter, not a first pass filter. I can't say I have personally ever found much that didn't already seem to confirm what the candidate has told us, unless you want to believe what a couple of whacky students said on RMP.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 11, 2021, 12:00:53 PM
City College of San Francisco:

https://www.ccsf.edu/news/ccsf-issues-statement-budget-cuts-2021-22-academic-year (https://www.ccsf.edu/news/ccsf-issues-statement-budget-cuts-2021-22-academic-year).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on March 11, 2021, 01:39:41 PM
Are there any estimates of what proportion of schools have, for the time being at least:
abolished or significantly reduced released time for research
abolished or significantly reduced administrative released time
abolished or reduced faculty travel funds
increased teaching loads
cut back on pension contributions
cut faculty wages
cut administration wages
fired untenured or tenured faculty for cost-cutting reasons
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on March 11, 2021, 01:48:39 PM
Quote from: spork on March 11, 2021, 12:00:53 PM
City College of San Francisco:

https://www.ccsf.edu/news/ccsf-issues-statement-budget-cuts-2021-22-academic-year (https://www.ccsf.edu/news/ccsf-issues-statement-budget-cuts-2021-22-academic-year).

Here are the highlights

One such change occurred on March 3, when City College issued preliminary layoff notices to 163 faculty members and 34 administrators. The Education Code requires preliminary notices to be issued by March 15, and final layoff notices by May 15. The College is facing a budget shortfall that is projected to be $33 million for the 2021-22 Fiscal Year. This unfunded deficit is the result of several factors. 

The College has:

    Retiree health care liability costs of almost $11 million.
    5% cash reserve need of $9.2 million. We have no funds for emergencies.
    Projected employee health and welfare increases which range from $750k-$900k.
    Collective bargaining agreement obligations for step and column increases of $1.8 million.
    Unfunded operational costs for technology, deferred maintenance, and utilities which amount to $4 million.
    Has been deficit spending for at least 10 years.[/li][/list]


The last bullet point is notable. Most dire places know they are dire, despite the heads in the sand folks that are shocked when the proverbial scat hits the fan. In many ways, it is impressive that places like this can hold on with at least 10 years of deficit spending. I guess this is why people believe that places like this can last forever.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: arty_ on March 11, 2021, 03:29:10 PM
City College in SF has served underserved populations for years on a shoestring. Frankly, they do an incredible job with the tiny resources available to them. This is a shockingly bad thing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 11, 2021, 06:32:05 PM
Quote from: arty_ on March 11, 2021, 03:29:10 PM
City College in SF has served underserved populations for years on a shoestring. Frankly, they do an incredible job with the tiny resources available to them. This is a shockingly bad thing.

+1 Organizations and governments that are supposed to be funding them have been figuring out ways to cheat them. It is a shameful situation that is not one on the usual cases of bad management.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on March 11, 2021, 09:15:17 PM
If one decides to google applicants, rather than merely relying on standard, HR-done background checks, how do you 1) know whether what you find on google would be accurate, and 2) even if it is accurate, whether it is relevant to your job search criteria (i.e., if you find out I used to date your wife, that should not count, but your knowing this may well make it count, human nature being what it is)?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 12, 2021, 04:17:21 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 11, 2021, 09:15:17 PM
If one decides to google applicants, rather than merely relying on standard, HR-done background checks, how do you 1) know whether what you find on google would be accurate, and 2) even if it is accurate, whether it is relevant to your job search criteria (i.e., if you find out I used to date your wife, that should not count, but your knowing this may well make it count, human nature being what it is)?

How is googling different than calling up a colleague* who works at the former institution of the applicant and asking their opinion? That's been discussed either here or on the previous fora. There are far more ways to get "informal", unofficial information, and in principle, it all serves the same purpose.

*not one of the applicant's listed references
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 12, 2021, 04:32:41 AM
Really what I am doing by Googling is cross checking what the applicant has stated. Honestly, haven't ever found much other than some details, not terribly relevant. Others claim they have, but not sure how accurate that info. Was.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 12, 2021, 06:41:46 AM
Quote from: Hibush on March 11, 2021, 06:32:05 PM
Quote from: arty_ on March 11, 2021, 03:29:10 PM
City College in SF has served underserved populations for years on a shoestring. Frankly, they do an incredible job with the tiny resources available to them. This is a shockingly bad thing.

+1 Organizations and governments that are supposed to be funding them have been figuring out ways to cheat them. It is a shameful situation that is not one on the usual cases of bad management.

There have been news headlines and dire warnings about CCSF for, oh, maybe as long as it's been running deficits. I believe those warnings have included messages from CCSF's accreditor.

The preliminary pink slips amount to 30% of full-time faculty in one of the most expensive real estate markets in the country. So maybe CCSF will eventually end up being staffed entirely by adjuncts with full-time jobs elsewhere because of lack of government funding (I am not familiar with how CC's in California are funded -- whether it's city, county, or state, or a mix).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on March 12, 2021, 08:15:28 AM
Quote from: spork on March 12, 2021, 06:41:46 AM
Quote from: Hibush on March 11, 2021, 06:32:05 PM
Quote from: arty_ on March 11, 2021, 03:29:10 PM
City College in SF has served underserved populations for years on a shoestring. Frankly, they do an incredible job with the tiny resources available to them. This is a shockingly bad thing.

+1 Organizations and governments that are supposed to be funding them have been figuring out ways to cheat them. It is a shameful situation that is not one on the usual cases of bad management.

There have been news headlines and dire warnings about CCSF for, oh, maybe as long as it's been running deficits. I believe those warnings have included messages from CCSF's accreditor.

The preliminary pink slips amount to 30% of full-time faculty in one of the most expensive real estate markets in the country. So maybe CCSF will eventually end up being staffed entirely by adjuncts with full-time jobs elsewhere because of lack of government funding (I am not familiar with how CC's in California are funded -- whether it's city, county, or state, or a mix).

CC's are mostly funded by the state.

CCSF is now going through the circular blaming squad. Faculty blames Chancellor blames Board blames former Chancellor blames Department Chairs blame Crooked Accreditor blames San Francisco Politics blames...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on March 12, 2021, 09:48:58 PM
There is also the related matter of how far back one's googling should go, and whether those listserv posts from the 90s written by a college kid should be considered relevant, etc.

As to the older version of calling up Professor X at the applicant's grad school and asking for informal scoop, even if the applicant had not listed Prof. X as a reference, why is this a legit thing?  Does it not give license to Prof. X to lie, etc., about the applicant, with no recourse, etc.?  This is the sort of thing HR rules today more or less forbid, for these sorts of reasons.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 13, 2021, 02:44:32 AM
Wheeling University (formerly Wheeling Jesuit University) was put on probation by HLC:

https://www.hlcommission.org/download/_BoardActionLetters/HLC%20Action%20Letter%20-%20Wheeling%20University%203.4.21.pdf (https://www.hlcommission.org/download/_BoardActionLetters/HLC%20Action%20Letter%20-%20Wheeling%20University%203.4.21.pdf)

Wheeling has been running deficits every year since the 2008 recession, except for 2016.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: biop_grad on March 13, 2021, 06:08:02 AM
Quote from: spork on March 13, 2021, 02:44:32 AM
Wheeling University (formerly Wheeling Jesuit University) was put on probation by HLC:

https://www.hlcommission.org/download/_BoardActionLetters/HLC%20Action%20Letter%20-%20Wheeling%20University%203.4.21.pdf (https://www.hlcommission.org/download/_BoardActionLetters/HLC%20Action%20Letter%20-%20Wheeling%20University%203.4.21.pdf)

Wheeling has been running deficits every year since the 2008 recession, except for 2016.

I remember something about a crazy restructuring there a couple years back.  They are definitely circling the drain.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 13, 2021, 06:57:58 AM
Quote from: biop_grad on March 13, 2021, 06:08:02 AM
Quote from: spork on March 13, 2021, 02:44:32 AM
Wheeling University (formerly Wheeling Jesuit University) was put on probation by HLC:

https://www.hlcommission.org/download/_BoardActionLetters/HLC%20Action%20Letter%20-%20Wheeling%20University%203.4.21.pdf (https://www.hlcommission.org/download/_BoardActionLetters/HLC%20Action%20Letter%20-%20Wheeling%20University%203.4.21.pdf)

Wheeling has been running deficits every year since the 2008 recession, except for 2016.

I remember something about a crazy restructuring there a couple years back.  They are definitely circling the drain.

Quote from: spork on June 11, 2019, 03:29:17 AM
Wheeling-Jesuit's board of trustees: nest of snakes.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/06/11/tied-bishop-scandal-wheeling-jesuit-chairman-steps-down-months-after-exigency (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/06/11/tied-bishop-scandal-wheeling-jesuit-chairman-steps-down-months-after-exigency)

Edited to add: this is what happens when a university is governed by child rapists and embezzlers.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 13, 2021, 07:32:19 AM
Quote from: biop_grad on March 13, 2021, 06:08:02 AM
Quote from: spork on March 13, 2021, 02:44:32 AM
Wheeling University (formerly Wheeling Jesuit University) was put on probation by HLC:

https://www.hlcommission.org/download/_BoardActionLetters/HLC%20Action%20Letter%20-%20Wheeling%20University%203.4.21.pdf (https://www.hlcommission.org/download/_BoardActionLetters/HLC%20Action%20Letter%20-%20Wheeling%20University%203.4.21.pdf)

Wheeling has been running deficits every year since the 2008 recession, except for 2016.

I remember something about a crazy restructuring there a couple years back.

Me too.  Seems like they've been on this thread, or its predecessor at the CHE, more than once.

They have over $10 million in outstanding loans.  Their strategic plan calls for "increasing enrollment by at least 80%."  In a time of declining demographics, at an institution which has slashed its course offerings pretty dramatically in recent years.  Not hard to see why the HLC describes this as "unrealistic."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 13, 2021, 07:47:36 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 13, 2021, 07:32:19 AM
Quote from: biop_grad on March 13, 2021, 06:08:02 AM
Quote from: spork on March 13, 2021, 02:44:32 AM
Wheeling University (formerly Wheeling Jesuit University) was put on probation by HLC:

https://www.hlcommission.org/download/_BoardActionLetters/HLC%20Action%20Letter%20-%20Wheeling%20University%203.4.21.pdf (https://www.hlcommission.org/download/_BoardActionLetters/HLC%20Action%20Letter%20-%20Wheeling%20University%203.4.21.pdf)

Wheeling has been running deficits every year since the 2008 recession, except for 2016.

I remember something about a crazy restructuring there a couple years back.

Me too.  Seems like they've been on this thread, or its predecessor at the CHE, more than once.

They have over $10 million in outstanding loans.  Their strategic plan calls for "increasing enrollment by at least 80%."  In a time of declining demographics, at an institution which has slashed its course offerings pretty dramatically in recent years.  Not hard to see why the HLC describes this as "unrealistic."

I'd have gone with "discovering huge gold deposits under the parking lot".
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on March 13, 2021, 11:27:04 AM
Wheeling doesn't own it's campus. Sold it to the local diocese in 2017 and leases it back for $2,400 a month.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: hazelshade on March 17, 2021, 11:55:26 AM
Mills College to close as an undergraduate institution (https://youtu.be/tEk9j9-2sa4). In an announcement today (video linked), their president stated that the Board has decided that after this fall, they will no longer enroll new first-year undergraduate students and that they expect to confer their final degrees in 2023. They intend to begin a shift from being a standalone, degree-granting college to becoming a free-standing institute that cultivates women's leadership, pursues racial and gender equity, and offers formative learning and research opportunities to those underserved by other institutions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 17, 2021, 12:08:34 PM
Quote from: hazelshade on March 17, 2021, 11:55:26 AM
Mills College to close as an undergraduate institution (https://youtu.be/tEk9j9-2sa4). In an announcement today (video linked), their president stated that the Board has decided that after this fall, they will no longer enroll new first-year undergraduate students and that they expect to confer their final degrees in 2023. They intend to begin a shift from being a standalone, degree-granting college to becoming a free-standing institute that cultivates women's leadership, pursues racial and gender equity, and offers formative learning and research opportunities to those underserved by other institutions.


That is sad to see, but the warning signs have long been there.

This description makes me curious about the business plan. On the surface it sounds as if they are ending expensive activities that don't generate enough revenue, to focus on expensive activities that don't generate any revenue.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: namazu on March 17, 2021, 12:11:05 PM
Quote from: Hibush on March 17, 2021, 12:08:34 PM
Quote from: hazelshade on March 17, 2021, 11:55:26 AM
Mills College to close as an undergraduate institution (https://youtu.be/tEk9j9-2sa4). In an announcement today (video linked), their president stated that the Board has decided that after this fall, they will no longer enroll new first-year undergraduate students and that they expect to confer their final degrees in 2023. They intend to begin a shift from being a standalone, degree-granting college to becoming a free-standing institute that cultivates women's leadership, pursues racial and gender equity, and offers formative learning and research opportunities to those underserved by other institutions.


That is sad to see, but the warning signs have long been there.

This description makes me curious about the business plan. On the surface it sounds as if they are ending expensive activities that don't generate enough revenue, to focus on expensive activities that don't generate any revenue.
Sounds to me like they are planning to host paid (and/or grant-supported) workshops, conferences, and retreats.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 17, 2021, 01:15:50 PM
Quote from: hazelshade on March 17, 2021, 11:55:26 AM
Mills College to close as an undergraduate institution (https://youtu.be/tEk9j9-2sa4). In an announcement today (video linked), their president stated that the Board has decided that after this fall, they will no longer enroll new first-year undergraduate students and that they expect to confer their final degrees in 2023. They intend to begin a shift from being a standalone, degree-granting college to becoming a free-standing institute that cultivates women's leadership, pursues racial and gender equity, and offers formative learning and research opportunities to those underserved by other institutions.

Another periodic guest of the "Dire Financial Straits" threads has now shut down.  It's a little unfortunate that we can't go back and check any predictions regarding their long-term survival that might have been made.

Unlike many other schools on this thread, Mills seems not to have been just another generic regional SLAC.  They stood out from the crowd.  Not in a way that helped their undergrad program enough, though.

They've still got assets and connections that they probably think will help them to get a leg up on the conference, retreat, etc. business in their chosen niche.  They've also still got what sounds like a rather substantial regional art museum.  Not that museums are all that profitable, but it's still something that could serve as an attraction.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on March 17, 2021, 01:23:19 PM
The Mills campus is beautiful, and certainly has the potential to be developed into a conference and meeting center. Not sure if that's enough to pay the bills in the Bay Area though. I find it interesting that they plan to let in new students this Fall, but are not planning for those students to stay a full 4 years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 17, 2021, 02:21:52 PM
Quote from: hazelshade on March 17, 2021, 11:55:26 AM
Mills College to close as an undergraduate institution (https://youtu.be/tEk9j9-2sa4). In an announcement today (video linked), their president stated that the Board has decided that after this fall, they will no longer enroll new first-year undergraduate students and that they expect to confer their final degrees in 2023. They intend to begin a shift from being a standalone, degree-granting college to becoming a free-standing institute that cultivates women's leadership, pursues racial and gender equity, and offers formative learning and research opportunities to those underserved by other institutions.

Predicted in 2017:

https://activelearningps.com/2017/07/24/mills-college-when-the-bus-leaves-the-station-and-youre-not-on-it/ (https://activelearningps.com/2017/07/24/mills-college-when-the-bus-leaves-the-station-and-youre-not-on-it/).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on March 17, 2021, 07:53:33 PM

Brandeis University was mentioned a few pages back (in the 130s) regarding Galloway's analysis of it being one of the doomed schools.  This article is quite interesting.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/03/17/brandeis-university-president-takes-bitter-contract-negotiations-public

Here are some interesting sentences.

Former president Frederick Lawrence stepped down in 2015 after fundraising revenues declined under his leadership, falling from an average of $90 million per year to $37 million. When Liebowitz became president in 2016, the university had a $35 million structural deficit.

Fundraising is particularly important to Brandeis, said Larry Ladd, a senior consultant at the Association of Governing Boards of Universities and Colleges. He has worked with the university in the past. Since the university was founded in 1948, fundraising revenue has made up a larger portion of its operating budget than many higher education institutions.


I had commented a few pages ago that Brandeis had a billion dollar endowment that solves many, but not all, problems. However, it sounds like they might be leaning heavily on their endowment to make up for declining enrollments and/or higher discount rates and/or an unwillingness to cut expenses via cutting programs and staff.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 17, 2021, 08:08:23 PM
Welcome to the club, Brandeis! They really should be doing much better with gifts. He'll, our best year sounds about as good as their worst year! That shouldn't be! They have a much, much bigger alum base that's probably making more money.

Anyway, they'll survive for a long time. They might not be able to be all they always wanted to be, but they'll survive.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 19, 2021, 11:11:42 AM
PASHE chancellor threatens dissolution of system if campuses don't consolidate:

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2021/03/leader-of-pa-state-universities-delivers-blunt-message-reorganize-or-dissolve-the-system.html (https://www.pennlive.com/news/2021/03/leader-of-pa-state-universities-delivers-blunt-message-reorganize-or-dissolve-the-system.html).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on March 19, 2021, 01:14:06 PM
Don't necessarily need to consolidate institutions, but every campus can't offer the same programs within a region. There is resistance to that, of course, because it means positions will be cut. They will be cut in any case.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 19, 2021, 01:26:17 PM
Quote from: spork on March 19, 2021, 11:11:42 AM
PASHE chancellor threatens dissolution of system if campuses don't consolidate:

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2021/03/leader-of-pa-state-universities-delivers-blunt-message-reorganize-or-dissolve-the-system.html (https://www.pennlive.com/news/2021/03/leader-of-pa-state-universities-delivers-blunt-message-reorganize-or-dissolve-the-system.html).

Is he talking about actually potentially shutting down all of the state's colleges?  That sounds awfully drastic.

If enrollment has been going down every year for the past 10 years in a row, it's hard to see how they can get away without some major retrenchment.  I wonder how close together the schools that are supposed to be consolidated are?

Seems like I recall years ago on the old CHE Fora version of this thread that somebody who worked at one of the PASSHE schools commented on a remarkable disconnect between the relentless bad news about PASSHE's finances and faculty members who apparently refused to believe that it was really that bad.  Some of them were even trying to get personal raises that they felt entitled to.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 19, 2021, 02:09:34 PM
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/09/15/pennsylvania-state-system-plans-integrate-three-universities-departing-earlier was the story in September.

July 2020 saw a new law in PA that would allow for changes only in the next three years and not flat out closing a public institution: https://www.inquirer.com/news/pennsylvania-state-system-universities-consolidate-west-chester-indiana-20200701.html

2017 saw http://www.apscuf.org/read-the-full-nchems-report/

The article that Spork linked sounds a lot like the situation in Vermont last year when the chancellor explained how bad the situation  in the system was, proposed dramatic action, and was no longer chancellor within weeks.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 19, 2021, 02:16:00 PM
Quote from: spork on March 19, 2021, 11:11:42 AM
PASHE chancellor threatens dissolution of system if campuses don't consolidate:

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2021/03/leader-of-pa-state-universities-delivers-blunt-message-reorganize-or-dissolve-the-system.html (https://www.pennlive.com/news/2021/03/leader-of-pa-state-universities-delivers-blunt-message-reorganize-or-dissolve-the-system.html).

A good effort to get the attention of a legislature that has been unwilling to pay the cost of the system in order to offer the educational, economic, and civil-society benefits of local higher ed.

Chancellor Greenstein had a tough job with these legislators. How do you get support from those who like the money coming to their districts but don't like that they are educating people? And at the same time, those who like the education, but don't want to pay for it?  Without those two factions on board, I don't see a helpful budget passing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 19, 2021, 02:34:47 PM
Here is the list of PASSHE campuses (not even the complete list of public four-year institutions in the state) along with a handy map of their locations:

https://www.passhe.edu/university/Pages/Our-Universities.aspx (https://www.passhe.edu/university/Pages/Our-Universities.aspx).

Here is the dashboard with enrollment data for these campuses:

https://viz.passhe.edu/t/Public/views/Enrollment-PublicFinal/System?:isGuestRedirectFromVizportal=y&:embed=y (https://viz.passhe.edu/t/Public/views/Enrollment-PublicFinal/System?:isGuestRedirectFromVizportal=y&:embed=y).

Only one, West Chester, has an FTE enrollment higher than 10K. Some have FTE enrollments under 2K. Cheyney's FTE enrollment is below 600.

Sorry for leaving out the second "S" in my earlier post.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on March 19, 2021, 03:08:15 PM
West Chester has approximately 20% of the PASSHE enrollment. Cheyney is a HBU, really close to West Chester. The two paragraphs I lifted from Wikipedia show the promise (first paragraph) and also why it might not be so appealing to Cheyney students (second paragraph).

"Nineteen days before his death, Frederick Douglass gave his last public lecture at West Chester University. The lecture took place on February 1, 1895. Now, the university has the Frederick Douglass Institute on its campus as well as a statue of Douglass.[8][9] It has been named a national historic landmark by the U.S. National Park Service.[citation needed] The Underground Railroad Network to Freedom recognized the Frederick Douglass Institute for its great work in understanding the history of the underground railroad.[10][11]

In April each year, students celebrate Banana Day,[12] on which a gorilla, Rammy, and many others give out bananas across the entire campus. Banana Day was conceptualized by WCU senior, Rodolfo P. Tellez, in 1996. Students take part in games similar to a field day to win Banana Day T-shirts, from push-up competitions to banana eating contests".
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 19, 2021, 07:13:27 PM
I want to say we discussed Cheyney at one point with the conclusion that there are many good choices within 50 miles (College Scorecard lists more than 100) including other HBCUs like Delaware State.

Cheyney's stats just look terrible on College Scorecard.

Cheyney is under heightened cash monitoring by Dept Ed for federal financial aid.

21% graduation rate at $15k per year to make $34k after graduation with 95% of borrowers in the bad categories.  The percentage of borrowers making progress on their student loans is so low that it is not reported.

73% Pell and a federal loan rate of 80% looks a lot like ripping off students.

The top five majors by graduation are offered nearly everywhere.

This looks like an institution ripe to be closed and new places found for all the students at places that will serve the students better.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 20, 2021, 03:44:13 PM
Cabrini University:

https://www.inquirer.com/education/cabrini-university-cuts-staff-programs-pandemic-20210315.html (https://www.inquirer.com/education/cabrini-university-cuts-staff-programs-pandemic-20210315.html).

Deficits every year since FY 2013. Undergraduate FTE is ~ 1,500 and its endowment is less than $40 million.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on March 20, 2021, 04:04:22 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 19, 2021, 07:13:27 PM
I want to say we discussed Cheyney at one point with the conclusion that there are many good choices within 50 miles (College Scorecard lists more than 100) including other HBCUs like Delaware State.


I think Cheyney has to close. Does anyone know if Delaware and PA have any in state tuition reciprocity arrangements?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 20, 2021, 05:19:10 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on March 20, 2021, 04:04:22 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 19, 2021, 07:13:27 PM
I want to say we discussed Cheyney at one point with the conclusion that there are many good choices within 50 miles (College Scorecard lists more than 100) including other HBCUs like Delaware State.


I think Cheyney has to close. Does anyone know if Delaware and PA have any in state tuition reciprocity arrangements?

Even if they don't have reciprocity, it will be cheaper for the state to just pay tuition + fees + room + board for a couple hundred students than to keep the institution open.  200 students * $20k = $4M.  Even doubled is only $8M.

https://www.penncapital-star.com/education/cheyney-council-of-trustees-approves-budget-in-last-meeting-before-accreditation-decision/ indicates a budget of about $30M with expenditures around $40M.  In fall 2019, Cheyney owed the system $40M (ibid).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jonadam on March 21, 2021, 10:49:27 PM
Those stats are not good. Will there even be a Cheyney University in five years?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 22, 2021, 06:51:59 AM
Quote from: jonadam on March 21, 2021, 10:49:27 PM
Those stats are not good. Will there even be a Cheyney University in five years?

Not if people engage in data-based decision making for good resource allocation to have a good higher ed landscape in PA.

However, since Cheyney really should have been closed years ago and few leaders have the spine to make necessary decisions in the face of unhappy stakeholders who say mean things, Cheyney could continue to siphon resources from the system until no system resources remain.

My bet is the final straw will be federal financial aid being cut off or the accreditor issuing a show cause action, not simply applying critical thinking skills.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 22, 2021, 07:39:11 AM
Quote from: spork on March 20, 2021, 03:44:13 PM
Cabrini University:

https://www.inquirer.com/education/cabrini-university-cuts-staff-programs-pandemic-20210315.html (https://www.inquirer.com/education/cabrini-university-cuts-staff-programs-pandemic-20210315.html).

Deficits every year since FY 2013. Undergraduate FTE is ~ 1,500 and its endowment is less than $40 million.

And they changed the name from "College" to "University" only in 2016! 

Looks from the article as though they tried several trendy-sounding majors that haven't panned out.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on March 22, 2021, 09:55:15 AM
Quote from: Hibush on March 19, 2021, 02:16:00 PM
Quote from: spork on March 19, 2021, 11:11:42 AM
PASHE chancellor threatens dissolution of system if campuses don't consolidate:

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2021/03/leader-of-pa-state-universities-delivers-blunt-message-reorganize-or-dissolve-the-system.html (https://www.pennlive.com/news/2021/03/leader-of-pa-state-universities-delivers-blunt-message-reorganize-or-dissolve-the-system.html).

A good effort to get the attention of a legislature that has been unwilling to pay the cost of the system in order to offer the educational, economic, and civil-society benefits of local higher ed.

Chancellor Greenstein had a tough job with these legislators. How do you get support from those who like the money coming to their districts but don't like that they are educating people? And at the same time, those who like the education, but don't want to pay for it?  Without those two factions on board, I don't see a helpful budget passing.

A big part is political attitudes toward higher ed have changed. There used to be a broad coalition that supported higher ed, especially with normal schools transitioning to regional comprehensives after WWII. GOP support has eroded (part of it is due to culture wars, but state budget crunches and anti-tax movement is another factor). The regional comprehensives also spent too much money trying to compete with the flagships in terms of student services and amenities. I'm an odd duck in that I'd like my kids to have the basic dorm and cheap apartment experience I had.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on March 22, 2021, 10:08:46 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 22, 2021, 07:39:11 AM
Quote from: spork on March 20, 2021, 03:44:13 PM
Cabrini University:

https://www.inquirer.com/education/cabrini-university-cuts-staff-programs-pandemic-20210315.html (https://www.inquirer.com/education/cabrini-university-cuts-staff-programs-pandemic-20210315.html).

Deficits every year since FY 2013. Undergraduate FTE is ~ 1,500 and its endowment is less than $40 million.

And they changed the name from "College" to "University" only in 2016! 

Looks from the article as though they tried several trendy-sounding majors that haven't panned out.

Oh no! That's in the strategic plan for at least 75% of the small liberal arts schools! 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 23, 2021, 07:16:11 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 03, 2021, 12:40:48 PM
Henderson State University's new leadership now expressing optimism for the long-term future--although in the short term enrollment is down 21% (11% if you allow for dropping concurrent enrollment students).  They now owe the state $7 million in zero-interest loans, with no plans at this time to take on more debt.



https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2021/feb/03/hsu-beginning-its-new-chapter-in-asu-system/

Moody's somewhat endorsed the optimism, (https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2021/feb/28/outlook-for-hsu-updated-to-stable/) saying that joining the Arkansas State System for support services means there is a chance of not dropping further.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 23, 2021, 03:17:12 PM
Quote from: Hibush on March 23, 2021, 07:16:11 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 03, 2021, 12:40:48 PM
Henderson State University's new leadership now expressing optimism for the long-term future--although in the short term enrollment is down 21% (11% if you allow for dropping concurrent enrollment students).  They now owe the state $7 million in zero-interest loans, with no plans at this time to take on more debt.



https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2021/feb/03/hsu-beginning-its-new-chapter-in-asu-system/

Moody's somewhat endorsed the optimism, (https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2021/feb/28/outlook-for-hsu-updated-to-stable/) saying that joining the Arkansas State System for support services means there is a chance of not dropping further.

Yes and yet the PA system may dissolve because of the problems of cross-subsidizing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 25, 2021, 05:07:49 PM
Bennett College has a new mission with a new accreditor: https://www.bennett.edu/news/designing-future-bennett-college/

Under 300 student enrollment and SACSOC revoked accreditation for financial instability and enrollment in 2018: https://www.wxii12.com/article/new-bennett-college-president-discusses-accreditation-her-goals-moving-forward/29235431#
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 25, 2021, 05:27:31 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 25, 2021, 05:07:49 PM
Bennett College has a new mission with a new accreditor: https://www.bennett.edu/news/designing-future-bennett-college/

Under 300 student enrollment and SACSOC revoked accreditation for financial instability and enrollment in 2018: https://www.wxii12.com/article/new-bennett-college-president-discusses-accreditation-her-goals-moving-forward/29235431#

"The Strategic Direction is the framework for the development of the Strategic Plan. The Strategic Plan requires engagement of all stakeholders to bring the Strategic Direction to life."

I don't think it will matter what the Strategic Direction or the Strategic Plan is once the CARES Act money runs out.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 25, 2021, 06:17:42 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 25, 2021, 05:07:49 PM
Bennett College has a new mission with a new accreditor: https://www.bennett.edu/news/designing-future-bennett-college/

Under 300 student enrollment and SACSOC revoked accreditation for financial instability and enrollment in 2018: https://www.wxii12.com/article/new-bennett-college-president-discusses-accreditation-her-goals-moving-forward/29235431#

They are literally striving to be a microcollege under the strategic direction, offering academic terms called minimesters. While they don't give numbers, it appears that they feel 300 is too large a student body, and whole semesters too long a commitment to make to them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 26, 2021, 08:30:25 AM
Quote from: Hibush on March 25, 2021, 06:17:42 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 25, 2021, 05:07:49 PM
Bennett College has a new mission with a new accreditor: https://www.bennett.edu/news/designing-future-bennett-college/

Under 300 student enrollment and SACSOC revoked accreditation for financial instability and enrollment in 2018: https://www.wxii12.com/article/new-bennett-college-president-discusses-accreditation-her-goals-moving-forward/29235431#

They are literally striving to be a microcollege under the strategic direction, offering academic terms called minimesters. While they don't give numbers, it appears that they feel 300 is too large a student body, and whole semesters too long a commitment to make to them.

And they're a formerly co-ed institution that later became single-sex.  Sounds like they have a long history of bucking trends.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 26, 2021, 02:04:17 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on March 17, 2021, 01:23:19 PM
The Mills campus is beautiful, and certainly has the potential to be developed into a conference and meeting center. Not sure if that's enough to pay the bills in the Bay Area though. I find it interesting that they plan to let in new students this Fall, but are not planning for those students to stay a full 4 years.

In addition to the meeting center, Cal has just claimed space (https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2021/03/25/amid-an-uncertain-future-mills-college-campus-will-be-home-to-hundreds-of-uc-berkeley-students/) for a freshman enrichment program and are moving in a few hundred students to start. Including boys.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 26, 2021, 05:35:10 PM
Quote from: Hibush on March 26, 2021, 02:04:17 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on March 17, 2021, 01:23:19 PM
The Mills campus is beautiful, and certainly has the potential to be developed into a conference and meeting center. Not sure if that's enough to pay the bills in the Bay Area though. I find it interesting that they plan to let in new students this Fall, but are not planning for those students to stay a full 4 years.

In addition to the meeting center, Cal has just claimed space (https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2021/03/25/amid-an-uncertain-future-mills-college-campus-will-be-home-to-hundreds-of-uc-berkeley-students/) for a freshman enrichment program and are moving in a few hundred students to start. Including boys.

I assume Mills was trying to get Berkeley to agree to a land for debt swap, and Berkeley wisely said "no thanks" -- given that Berkeley can now rent space for much less than it would have cost to service Mills' loans.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on March 29, 2021, 11:40:05 AM

Another one bites the dust: Becker College in Worcester, Massachusetts.

https://www.boston.com/news/education/2021/03/29/becker-college-worcester-closure
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 29, 2021, 01:10:24 PM
The article says that they sought to merge with other schools in the region, apparently without success.  Now neighboring Clark University is picking up some of their programs, including a video game design program.  The trendy new program didn't save the school, but at least the students in it will be taken care of.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 29, 2021, 01:16:08 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 29, 2021, 01:10:24 PM
The article says that they sought to merge with other schools in the region, apparently without success.  Now neighboring Clark University is picking up some of their programs, including a video game design program.  The trendy new program didn't save the school, but at least the students in it will be taken care of.

When did video game design become a major?  That's at least a trendy new major with prospects if Becker advertised in the right markets and could make a case for internships with relevant companies that would lead to jobs.

If the major didn't have time to take off but all the pieces were in place, then picking up faculty, students, and infant networks could be a smart move.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on March 29, 2021, 08:48:18 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 29, 2021, 01:16:08 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 29, 2021, 01:10:24 PM
The article says that they sought to merge with other schools in the region, apparently without success.  Now neighboring Clark University is picking up some of their programs, including a video game design program.  The trendy new program didn't save the school, but at least the students in it will be taken care of.

When did video game design become a major?  That's at least a trendy new major with prospects if Becker advertised in the right markets and could make a case for internships with relevant companies that would lead to jobs.

If the major didn't have time to take off but all the pieces were in place, then picking up faculty, students, and infant networks could be a smart move.

Video game design majors can sometimes be ensconced within different academic units. It's hard to start and sustain good video game design programs without being interdisciplinary. But it also makes it hard to communicate the existence of said programs if housed in multiple departments--this in addition to merely running one without pulling your hair out.

Regarding Becker and Clark,

It's as if a struggling private sector company broke off its more successful and profitable entities and sold them off as an entire division, to another company.

Like I mentioned earlier, it's often hard to get a video game design program going (& ultimately self-sustaining and operationally efficient) because of its dependency on multiple departments. If one already exists, self-contained, with tested curriculum & outcomes, a real business model & financial projections, a culture of student excellence & research excellence, tech infrastructure, positive brand reputation, and pipelines (both recruiting pipelines and pipelines to internships & jobs), it would be so much easier to poach one than start one.

It will be interesting to see how this works out.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on March 30, 2021, 08:29:50 AM
I hear that the chancellor of the PA State System of Higher Education has ordered three western universities (California, Clarion, and Edinboro) to consolidate into one, as well as three in the mideastern part (Bloomsburg, Lock Haven, and Mansfield). It's being floated that 2/3 of admin will be cut, lots of faculty will be cut, and classes will be hybridized. And if that doesn't work by next year, the chancellor will propose dissolving the state system.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on March 30, 2021, 08:39:54 AM
Becker tried to merge with an out of state university collaborative.  Accreditation agency was leery b/c of the Mount Ida situation and the deal fell through.

The news that Clark stepped in to help (scavenge) is rich, as the stories ONLY seem to be talking about the Private Schools.  Nearby Worcester State is taking their sports teams, their nursing students, has transfer arrangements for about 8 majors and is pushing to hire their faculty for at least a 1 year VAP.  The press seems quiet on that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 30, 2021, 03:59:38 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 30, 2021, 08:29:50 AM
I hear that the chancellor of the PA State System of Higher Education has ordered three western universities (California, Clarion, and Edinboro) to consolidate into one, as well as three in the mideastern part (Bloomsburg, Lock Haven, and Mansfield). It's being floated that 2/3 of admin will be cut, lots of faculty will be cut, and classes will be hybridized. And if that doesn't work by next year, the chancellor will propose dissolving the state system.

Yes, that's been the situation for a while. 

So far, that PA chancellor is doing better than the VT chancellor who was fired for a similar read on a similar situation.

The situation was clear even before Covid and Covid didn't make anything better.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 30, 2021, 07:16:29 PM
Salem State University inadvertently circulates the retrenchment plan with individual names: https://www.salemnews.com/news/local_news/ssu-faculty-retrenchment-plan-accidentally-released/article_a0f22d6e-e1cd-52d5-84a1-5a794da42c57.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 30, 2021, 09:34:18 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 30, 2021, 03:59:38 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 30, 2021, 08:29:50 AM
I hear that the chancellor of the PA State System of Higher Education has ordered three western universities (California, Clarion, and Edinboro) to consolidate into one, as well as three in the mideastern part (Bloomsburg, Lock Haven, and Mansfield). It's being floated that 2/3 of admin will be cut, lots of faculty will be cut, and classes will be hybridized. And if that doesn't work by next year, the chancellor will propose dissolving the state system.

Yes, that's been the situation for a while. 

So far, that PA chancellor is doing better than the VT chancellor who was fired for a similar read on a similar situation.

The situation was clear even before Covid and Covid didn't make anything better.

https://www.abc27.com/investigators/leader-of-pa-state-universities-make-a-change-or-dissolve-the-system/

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on March 30, 2021, 10:19:33 PM
Hmmm... state chancellors of public higher ed are not hired to, ahem, chloroform their systems.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on March 30, 2021, 11:11:33 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 30, 2021, 07:16:29 PM
Salem State University inadvertently circulates the retrenchment plan with individual names: https://www.salemnews.com/news/local_news/ssu-faculty-retrenchment-plan-accidentally-released/article_a0f22d6e-e1cd-52d5-84a1-5a794da42c57.html

Whoops.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 31, 2021, 06:16:59 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 30, 2021, 09:34:18 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 30, 2021, 03:59:38 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 30, 2021, 08:29:50 AM
I hear that the chancellor of the PA State System of Higher Education has ordered three western universities (California, Clarion, and Edinboro) to consolidate into one, as well as three in the mideastern part (Bloomsburg, Lock Haven, and Mansfield). It's being floated that 2/3 of admin will be cut, lots of faculty will be cut, and classes will be hybridized. And if that doesn't work by next year, the chancellor will propose dissolving the state system.

Yes, that's been the situation for a while. 

So far, that PA chancellor is doing better than the VT chancellor who was fired for a similar read on a similar situation.

The situation was clear even before Covid and Covid didn't make anything better.

https://www.abc27.com/investigators/leader-of-pa-state-universities-make-a-change-or-dissolve-the-system/

I guess by "dissolving" they mean no more sharing of resources among schools?  They must sink or swim on their own?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 31, 2021, 06:44:08 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 30, 2021, 10:19:33 PM
Hmmm... state chancellors of public higher ed are not hired to, ahem, chloroform their systems.

They are hired to ensure the state has viable public higher ed institutions.  People who are using data to make decisions may have to make decisions that individuals won't like because reality doesn't care about feelings.

Amputation is sometimes the best option, even if it's not pleasant.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on March 31, 2021, 06:50:50 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 30, 2021, 08:29:50 AM
I hear that the chancellor of the PA State System of Higher Education has ordered three western universities (California, Clarion, and Edinboro) to consolidate into one, as well as three in the mideastern part (Bloomsburg, Lock Haven, and Mansfield). It's being floated that 2/3 of admin will be cut, lots of faculty will be cut, and classes will be hybridized. And if that doesn't work by next year, the chancellor will propose dissolving the state system.

Ahem. Credit spork with posting this back on March 19. They have been discussing the merger for at least two years. Upthread polly and I "closed" Cheyney.

:edit: fix quotes to highlight new material
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on March 31, 2021, 10:31:46 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 30, 2021, 07:16:29 PM
Salem State University inadvertently circulates the retrenchment plan with individual names: https://www.salemnews.com/news/local_news/ssu-faculty-retrenchment-plan-accidentally-released/article_a0f22d6e-e1cd-52d5-84a1-5a794da42c57.html

Ooof, there's no putting that toothpaste back in the tube.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on March 31, 2021, 10:54:13 AM
I'm cynical enough to wonder if it was intentional, to pit those on the chopping block against those who would survive the purge.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on March 31, 2021, 11:45:40 AM
I wondered the same thing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on April 01, 2021, 10:57:16 PM
Be careful to avoid the bifurcation fallacy.   It is rarely going to be an 'all or nothing' situation where 'continue the status quo unchanged forever' alternates with 'kill it'.   These institutions serve great public goals, and 'we cannot afford it' is really often just 'we do not want to do what's necessary to afford it'.   Private institutions are a whole different ball of wax.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 02, 2021, 07:11:21 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on April 01, 2021, 10:57:16 PM
Be careful to avoid the bifurcation fallacy.   It is rarely going to be an 'all or nothing' situation where 'continue the status quo unchanged forever' alternates with 'kill it'.   These institutions serve great public goals, and 'we cannot afford it' is really often just 'we do not want to do what's necessary to afford it'.   Private institutions are a whole different ball of wax.

You're not as right as you want to be.  Closing a seriously underperforming unit to free up resources for other units is often a very good choice, although it does mean a loss of jobs and fewer options for students.

Dissolving the PASSHE doesn't mean having zero higher ed institutions in PA.  It could, though, mean letting the institutions that should close finally close and redirecting those resources to something that will be good with just a few more resources.

Yes, let's not fall into the bifurcation fallacy of preserving everything that currently exists by draining resources from all other endeavors or doing nothing while hoping magic occurs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on April 02, 2021, 11:10:50 PM
There are massive consequences for killing a state college, almost all of which are negative (and this does not even include the political ramifications).   'Underperforming' can mean a whole lot of things, and we'd best make sure that that underperformance is endemic and cannot be fixed, and is really a relevant type of underperformance, before imposing the nuclear option.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 03, 2021, 07:18:37 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on April 02, 2021, 11:10:50 PM
There are massive consequences for killing a state college, almost all of which are negative (and this does not even include the political ramifications).   'Underperforming' can mean a whole lot of things, and we'd best make sure that that underperformance is endemic and cannot be fixed, and is really a relevant type of underperformance, before imposing the nuclear option.

People who have been paying attention to the data and the trends have the relevant evidence.

Refusing to face the reality and do what needs to be done is one reason that "academic" is a perjorative.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on April 03, 2021, 09:51:25 AM
"Refusing to face the reality and do what needs to be done is one reason that "academic" is a perjorative."

An accurate summation of the most recent 96 pages of this thread.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 03, 2021, 09:51:37 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 03, 2021, 07:18:37 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on April 02, 2021, 11:10:50 PM
There are massive consequences for killing a state college, almost all of which are negative (and this does not even include the political ramifications).   'Underperforming' can mean a whole lot of things, and we'd best make sure that that underperformance is endemic and cannot be fixed, and is really a relevant type of underperformance, before imposing the nuclear option.

People who have been paying attention to the data and the trends have the relevant evidence.

Refusing to face the reality and do what needs to be done is one reason that "academic" is a perjorative.

It's interesting, because I've done some journalism about it. We also have to take in the loss of payroll; the loss to local merchants, renters, and various other businesses of student and personnel customers; the loss to vendors who serviced the campuses; the loss to the life of the regional community; and the remaining derelict campus which is not easy to repurpose, particularly in small towns which do not have businesses looking for space.  The loss of a campus can have a devastating effect on local economies, particular the small rural areas. 

We know, Polly, that the auguries are bad.  You have no esoteric knowledge or data there.   And you are quite fixated on a couple of ideas.

You seem like a very good, moral person, Polly, but are you rooting for these colleges to close?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 05, 2021, 08:01:30 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 03, 2021, 09:51:37 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 03, 2021, 07:18:37 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on April 02, 2021, 11:10:50 PM
There are massive consequences for killing a state college, almost all of which are negative (and this does not even include the political ramifications).   'Underperforming' can mean a whole lot of things, and we'd best make sure that that underperformance is endemic and cannot be fixed, and is really a relevant type of underperformance, before imposing the nuclear option.

People who have been paying attention to the data and the trends have the relevant evidence.

Refusing to face the reality and do what needs to be done is one reason that "academic" is a perjorative.

It's interesting, because I've done some journalism about it. We also have to take in the loss of payroll; the loss to local merchants, renters, and various other businesses of student and personnel customers; the loss to vendors who serviced the campuses; the loss to the life of the regional community; and the remaining derelict campus which is not easy to repurpose, particularly in small towns which do not have businesses looking for space.  The loss of a campus can have a devastating effect on local economies, particular the small rural areas. 

I think what we see in Pennsylvania's case is that the legislature is being pushed closer and closer to having to face some tough decisions.  Either they're going to have to shut down some campuses, with all the above consequences and the resulting political fallout, or they're going to have to put up some serious money to prevent all of this.  It appears that they've kicked the can down the road about as far as they can go at this point.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 05, 2021, 08:14:33 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 05, 2021, 08:01:30 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 03, 2021, 09:51:37 AM

It's interesting, because I've done some journalism about it. We also have to take in the loss of payroll; the loss to local merchants, renters, and various other businesses of student and personnel customers; the loss to vendors who serviced the campuses; the loss to the life of the regional community; and the remaining derelict campus which is not easy to repurpose, particularly in small towns which do not have businesses looking for space.  The loss of a campus can have a devastating effect on local economies, particular the small rural areas. 

I think what we see in Pennsylvania's case is that the legislature is being pushed closer and closer to having to face some tough decisions.  Either they're going to have to shut down some campuses, with all the above consequences and the resulting political fallout, or they're going to have to put up some serious money to prevent all of this.  It appears that they've kicked the can down the road about as far as they can go at this point.

Since governments all over the place have been deficit spending for years, this is the reality; if they're going to increase spending on PSE, they have to take it from somewhere else. (And if they're already going deeper into debt, continuing to do so is unsustainable. Remember 2007? Eventually a reckoning happens.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 07, 2021, 06:11:18 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 05, 2021, 08:14:33 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 05, 2021, 08:01:30 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 03, 2021, 09:51:37 AM

It's interesting, because I've done some journalism about it. We also have to take in the loss of payroll; the loss to local merchants, renters, and various other businesses of student and personnel customers; the loss to vendors who serviced the campuses; the loss to the life of the regional community; and the remaining derelict campus which is not easy to repurpose, particularly in small towns which do not have businesses looking for space.  The loss of a campus can have a devastating effect on local economies, particular the small rural areas. 

I think what we see in Pennsylvania's case is that the legislature is being pushed closer and closer to having to face some tough decisions.  Either they're going to have to shut down some campuses, with all the above consequences and the resulting political fallout, or they're going to have to put up some serious money to prevent all of this.  It appears that they've kicked the can down the road about as far as they can go at this point.

Since governments all over the place have been deficit spending for years, this is the reality; if they're going to increase spending on PSE, they have to take it from somewhere else. (And if they're already going deeper into debt, continuing to do so is unsustainable. Remember 2007? Eventually a reckoning happens.)

PAs neighbor to the north has identical demographic challenges, and the same oversupply of rural public and private colleges. The NY FY22 budget just came out with a 3.8% increase in support for public colleges, and an 8.5% increase in base funding for community colleges. It also adds a number of job-readiness programs within the higher-ed system. That is the example PA would have to follow if they want a decent rural society supported by local education in the PASSHE system.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 07, 2021, 06:55:30 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 03, 2021, 09:51:37 AM
You seem like a very good, moral person, Polly, but are you rooting for these colleges to close?

I'm rooting for people to make the hard decisions to have best, realistic outcomes instead of just letting things crash as individual pieces run out of money.  I am quite familiar with rural poverty and dying areas.  I currently own two houses in those areas and purposely left academia instead of moving to a third area where the pace of life is good, but the outlook is near certain to crash before I retire.  There's a lot of those places in the US currently.

Artificially propping up a struggling public higher ed institution instead of dealing directly with the problem of a poor rural area is a misuse of resources.  The struggling college is a symptom of the dying region.  The actions to help move the region to a better space often mean gracefully closing the college, investing that money in other aspects of the region, and being ready to open something new in 10 years after the transformation has occurred.

Having people redistribute themselves to do something new is individually painful, but can be a net positive for . the region after the pain.  The college to be closed is being closed because prospective students have already noped and voted with their feet for something else.  Redirecting that money to  pay people to relocate and attend a university with the full range of degrees in all fields in a more populous area where those folks can get jobs after graduation with any bachelor's degree is a much better investment. 

"Study anything you like in college and then take an unrelated middle-class job" is acceptable advice when one is earning a degree from a prestigious enough institution where recruiters do go and do hire those unrelated bachelor's holders.

I am fixated on "make the hard decisions before the crash" in large part because the crash will be so much worse for everyone involved than making a hard decision with a plan and having enough time for the plan to work.

Reality will kill that region anyway if the other aspects aren't fixed.  Then, the region will lose the college and everything else all at the same time.  Closing the college gracefully means a slowed continued migration over a few years, especially if closing a couple colleges means the other colleges in the region then have sufficient students and faculty to grow and grow their communities.

The Midwest and New England would be much more sustainable with far fewer towns that are bigger instead of still having a settlement every however many miles the horse and wagon could get in a day.  Even just consolidating the colleges into regional universities spaced by current population would be a better use of state and other resources.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 07, 2021, 07:06:12 AM
Quote from: Hibush on April 07, 2021, 06:11:18 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 05, 2021, 08:14:33 AM
Since governments all over the place have been deficit spending for years, this is the reality; if they're going to increase spending on PSE, they have to take it from somewhere else. (And if they're already going deeper into debt, continuing to do so is unsustainable. Remember 2007? Eventually a reckoning happens.)

PAs neighbor to the north has identical demographic challenges, and the same oversupply of rural public and private colleges. The NY FY22 budget just came out with a 3.8% increase in support for public colleges, and an 8.5% increase in base funding for community colleges. It also adds a number of job-readiness programs within the higher-ed system. That is the example PA would have to follow if they want a decent rural society supported by local education in the PASSHE system.

So does NY have a balanced budget? Or are they just digging themselves in a deeper hole?
In early 2007, you could point out  "the example banks should follow" in offering mortgages to people who previously wouldn't qualify.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 07, 2021, 07:24:21 AM
Though I don't know the situation in Pennsylvania in detail, I suspect that a case can be made for keeping those regional campuses open.  As much as the regions may be in decline, they're not going to become entirely depopulated any time soon.  There will remain a need for, and demand for, higher education, even if it is on a reduced level.  What may be needed there is planned downsizing of the threatened campuses, not complete closure.  If nothing else they could probably survive as community colleges or vo-tech schools. 

Note that I'm NOT arguing for business as usual here.  It appears that the current situation of weaker campuses draining resources from more viable ones is unsustainable.  The question is, will they address the situation constructively, to restructure the threatened campuses to better meet the changed needs of the regions that they serve, or will they let them keep muddling through in decline until they're past saving?  Maybe they already are, but I'd rather let people closer to the scene who know more about it make that call.

As regards finances, I suspect that Pennsylvania, like most states, has been guilty of under-investing in public higher education for a long time now.  They could surely find funds for improvements if they decided to make it a priority.  Again, this is not an argument for just trying to keep everything as it is.  The public would have to be assured that any new funds would not just be used to prop up a status quo that no longer meets regional needs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 07, 2021, 07:40:12 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 07, 2021, 07:24:21 AM

Note that I'm NOT arguing for business as usual here.  It appears that the current situation of weaker campuses draining resources from more viable ones is unsustainable.  The question is, will they address the situation constructively, to restructure the threatened campuses to better meet the changed needs of the regions that they serve, or will they let them keep muddling through in decline until they're past saving?  Maybe they already are, but I'd rather let people closer to the scene who know more about it make that call.


A neighbouring city was created decades ago by the amalgamation of three smaller communities. Because of that history, the city has 5 high schools, each with less than  1000 students. Nearby cities have high schools that all have over 1500 students. These bigger schools can offer more courses, more extracurricular activities, etc. The school board would like to close at least one of those under 1000 student schools, but no-one wants it to be their school. So there is no way to change the situation, even though almost everyone would be better off.

A similar situation happens with elementary schools as demographic shifts reduce the student population in some areas.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2021, 07:50:07 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 07, 2021, 07:40:12 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 07, 2021, 07:24:21 AM

Note that I'm NOT arguing for business as usual here.  It appears that the current situation of weaker campuses draining resources from more viable ones is unsustainable.  The question is, will they address the situation constructively, to restructure the threatened campuses to better meet the changed needs of the regions that they serve, or will they let them keep muddling through in decline until they're past saving?  Maybe they already are, but I'd rather let people closer to the scene who know more about it make that call.


A neighbouring city was created decades ago by the amalgamation of three smaller communities. Because of that history, the city has 5 high schools, each with less than  1000 students. Nearby cities have high schools that all have over 1500 students. These bigger schools can offer more courses, more extracurricular activities, etc. The school board would like to close at least one of those under 1000 student schools, but no-one wants it to be their school. So there is no way to change the situation, even though almost everyone would be better off.

A similar situation happens with elementary schools as demographic shifts reduce the student population in some areas.

More is not always better.  Bigger is not always better.  A smaller school will serve some people better for whatever reason.  I imagine this is particularly true of secondary schooling.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 07, 2021, 08:09:40 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 07, 2021, 07:50:07 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 07, 2021, 07:40:12 AM
A neighbouring city was created decades ago by the amalgamation of three smaller communities. Because of that history, the city has 5 high schools, each with less than  1000 students. Nearby cities have high schools that all have over 1500 students. These bigger schools can offer more courses, more extracurricular activities, etc. The school board would like to close at least one of those under 1000 student schools, but no-one wants it to be their school. So there is no way to change the situation, even though almost everyone would be better off.

A similar situation happens with elementary schools as demographic shifts reduce the student population in some areas.

More is not always better.  Bigger is not always better.  A smaller school will serve some people better for whatever reason. I imagine this is particularly true of secondary schooling.

Yes, but by refusing to close even one school, no-one gets the benefit of a bigger school. So, unless the smaller schools are better for everyone, or at least a majority, the status quo is sub-optimal.  And if the student-age population declines, the situation will just get worse.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on April 07, 2021, 08:33:44 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 07, 2021, 07:24:21 AM
Though I don't know the situation in Pennsylvania in detail, I suspect that a case can be made for keeping those regional campuses open.  As much as the regions may be in decline, they're not going to become entirely depopulated any time soon.  There will remain a need for, and demand for, higher education, even if it is on a reduced level.  What may be needed there is planned downsizing of the threatened campuses, not complete closure.  If nothing else they could probably survive as community colleges or vo-tech schools. 

Note that I'm NOT arguing for business as usual here.  It appears that the current situation of weaker campuses draining resources from more viable ones is unsustainable.  The question is, will they address the situation constructively, to restructure the threatened campuses to better meet the changed needs of the regions that they serve, or will they let them keep muddling through in decline until they're past saving?  Maybe they already are, but I'd rather let people closer to the scene who know more about it make that call.

As regards finances, I suspect that Pennsylvania, like most states, has been guilty of under-investing in public higher education for a long time now.  They could surely find funds for improvements if they decided to make it a priority.  Again, this is not an argument for just trying to keep everything as it is.  The public would have to be assured that any new funds would not just be used to prop up a status quo that no longer meets regional needs.

There just isn't political will to keep the universities going under the status quo. Most of the universities are in rural areas in GOP state legislative districts. To say the state just needs to spend more money is ignoring reality, and it's hard to take those who want to keep the status quo (or even increase funding) seriously because that won't happen.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 07, 2021, 09:25:48 AM
Quote from: Mobius on April 07, 2021, 08:33:44 AM
There just isn't political will to keep the universities going under the status quo. Most of the universities are in rural areas in GOP state legislative districts. To say the state just needs to spend more money is ignoring reality, and it's hard to take those who want to keep the status quo (or even increase funding) seriously because that won't happen.

IOW the condition "if they want a decent rural society supported by local education in the PASSHE system" is likely to be false when "they"=PA legislature.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 07, 2021, 10:42:54 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 07, 2021, 07:40:12 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 07, 2021, 07:24:21 AM

Note that I'm NOT arguing for business as usual here.  It appears that the current situation of weaker campuses draining resources from more viable ones is unsustainable.  The question is, will they address the situation constructively, to restructure the threatened campuses to better meet the changed needs of the regions that they serve, or will they let them keep muddling through in decline until they're past saving?  Maybe they already are, but I'd rather let people closer to the scene who know more about it make that call.


A neighbouring city was created decades ago by the amalgamation of three smaller communities. Because of that history, the city has 5 high schools, each with less than  1000 students. Nearby cities have high schools that all have over 1500 students. These bigger schools can offer more courses, more extracurricular activities, etc. The school board would like to close at least one of those under 1000 student schools, but no-one wants it to be their school. So there is no way to change the situation, even though almost everyone would be better off.

A similar situation happens with elementary schools as demographic shifts reduce the student population in some areas.

Yes, our town went through some of that some years back.  As I mentioned on the "What Have You Been Reading" thread, in the 1950s the town had a master plan that involved setting up several neighborhood elementary schools.  It was the baby boom era, so every neighborhood had plenty of children.  Now our population is both smaller and older.  In recent decades most of those neighborhood schools have been consolidated out of existence.  At least one of the buildings is still in service as a youth center.  More recently, our middle school campus was consolidated out of service, with the grades divided among other schools.  Its building is now used for the local Boys' and Girls' Club.  Demographic decline forces tough choices.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: wareagle on April 07, 2021, 01:30:02 PM
Quote from: apl68 on April 07, 2021, 10:42:54 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 07, 2021, 07:40:12 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 07, 2021, 07:24:21 AM

Note that I'm NOT arguing for business as usual here.  It appears that the current situation of weaker campuses draining resources from more viable ones is unsustainable.  The question is, will they address the situation constructively, to restructure the threatened campuses to better meet the changed needs of the regions that they serve, or will they let them keep muddling through in decline until they're past saving?  Maybe they already are, but I'd rather let people closer to the scene who know more about it make that call.


A neighbouring city was created decades ago by the amalgamation of three smaller communities. Because of that history, the city has 5 high schools, each with less than  1000 students. Nearby cities have high schools that all have over 1500 students. These bigger schools can offer more courses, more extracurricular activities, etc. The school board would like to close at least one of those under 1000 student schools, but no-one wants it to be their school. So there is no way to change the situation, even though almost everyone would be better off.

A similar situation happens with elementary schools as demographic shifts reduce the student population in some areas.

Yes, our town went through some of that some years back.  As I mentioned on the "What Have You Been Reading" thread, in the 1950s the town had a master plan that involved setting up several neighborhood elementary schools.  It was the baby boom era, so every neighborhood had plenty of children.  Now our population is both smaller and older.  In recent decades most of those neighborhood schools have been consolidated out of existence.  At least one of the buildings is still in service as a youth center.  More recently, our middle school campus was consolidated out of service, with the grades divided among other schools.  Its building is now used for the local Boys' and Girls' Club.  Demographic decline forces tough choices.

Let's hope those rural school buildings don't turn into Amazon fulfillment centers.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 07, 2021, 02:18:13 PM
Quote from: wareagle on April 07, 2021, 01:30:02 PM
Quote from: apl68 on April 07, 2021, 10:42:54 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 07, 2021, 07:40:12 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 07, 2021, 07:24:21 AM

Note that I'm NOT arguing for business as usual here.  It appears that the current situation of weaker campuses draining resources from more viable ones is unsustainable.  The question is, will they address the situation constructively, to restructure the threatened campuses to better meet the changed needs of the regions that they serve, or will they let them keep muddling through in decline until they're past saving?  Maybe they already are, but I'd rather let people closer to the scene who know more about it make that call.


A neighbouring city was created decades ago by the amalgamation of three smaller communities. Because of that history, the city has 5 high schools, each with less than  1000 students. Nearby cities have high schools that all have over 1500 students. These bigger schools can offer more courses, more extracurricular activities, etc. The school board would like to close at least one of those under 1000 student schools, but no-one wants it to be their school. So there is no way to change the situation, even though almost everyone would be better off.

A similar situation happens with elementary schools as demographic shifts reduce the student population in some areas.

Yes, our town went through some of that some years back.  As I mentioned on the "What Have You Been Reading" thread, in the 1950s the town had a master plan that involved setting up several neighborhood elementary schools.  It was the baby boom era, so every neighborhood had plenty of children.  Now our population is both smaller and older.  In recent decades most of those neighborhood schools have been consolidated out of existence.  At least one of the buildings is still in service as a youth center.  More recently, our middle school campus was consolidated out of service, with the grades divided among other schools.  Its building is now used for the local Boys' and Girls' Club.  Demographic decline forces tough choices.

Let's hope those rural school buildings don't turn into Amazon fulfillment centers.

They're not that big....

There have been reports of one of them turning into a hangout for squatters.  I don't think there have been any there for a long time, though.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 07, 2021, 03:48:29 PM
Quote from: wareagle on April 07, 2021, 01:30:02 PM
Let's hope those rural school buildings don't turn into Amazon fulfillment centers.

There's little danger of that because the fulfillment centers have to be in areas with enough population to be worth it both for delivery and for jobs.

There's a solid argument to be made for smaller schools.  However, nearly all that argument rests on a having a mixture of sizes and purposely choosing to have different sizes, not just being unwilling to look at resource allocation at the system level.  One of the few consolidation success stories is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimer_College.  They kept the small, special mission, but leveraged overhead.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 07, 2021, 05:15:57 PM
American Jewish University:

https://www.jweekly.com/2021/04/06/american-jewish-university-seeks-partner-to-share-its-l-a-campus/ (https://www.jweekly.com/2021/04/06/american-jewish-university-seeks-partner-to-share-its-l-a-campus/).

Story mentioned in brief in IHE, which failed to note that according to its IRS Form 990s, AJU has been running deficits every year since 2015. Less than half of its revenue comes from program services; the budget depends on contributions and sales of assets.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 08, 2021, 01:55:06 AM
Quote from: spork on April 07, 2021, 05:15:57 PM
American Jewish University:

https://www.jweekly.com/2021/04/06/american-jewish-university-seeks-partner-to-share-its-l-a-campus/ (https://www.jweekly.com/2021/04/06/american-jewish-university-seeks-partner-to-share-its-l-a-campus/).

Story mentioned in brief in IHE, which failed to note that according to its IRS Form 990s, AJU has been running deficits every year since 2015. Less than half of its revenue comes from program services; the budget depends on contributions and sales of assets.

They discontinued the undergraduate program in 2018. That is a bad sign as well.

The campus is in Bel Air, California, suggesting that neighborhood kids would not need much in the way of financial aid.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 08, 2021, 07:27:24 AM
Hope that their collections of rare books and documents are well taken care of.  Sounds like there would be a lot of cultural value there.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 08, 2021, 07:30:31 AM
Western Oregon continues to discontinue programs and cut faculty positions https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/04/08/cuts-hit-faculty-philosophy-western-oregon
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 08, 2021, 07:46:38 AM
University of Oregon states they won't reduce faculty pay, hiring freeze and pay raise freeze remain in place: https://around.uoregon.edu/content/university-announces-elimination-pay-reduction-plan
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on April 08, 2021, 09:13:34 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 08, 2021, 07:46:38 AM
University of Oregon states they won't reduce faculty pay, hiring freeze and pay raise freeze remain in place: https://around.uoregon.edu/content/university-announces-elimination-pay-reduction-plan
Original source linked within the article has quite telling statement by a faculty member:
"It really feels like a betrayal at a very deep level," Perlman said. "My job as a professor is to teach the students that are in my class. The administration's job is to get them to the university and put them in my class. I've been doing my part this whole time. The administration has been falling down on the task of keeping enrollment where it should be."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 08, 2021, 10:02:32 AM
Quote from: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on April 08, 2021, 09:13:34 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 08, 2021, 07:46:38 AM
University of Oregon states they won't reduce faculty pay, hiring freeze and pay raise freeze remain in place: https://around.uoregon.edu/content/university-announces-elimination-pay-reduction-plan
Original source linked within the article has quite telling statement by a faculty member:
"It really feels like a betrayal at a very deep level," Perlman said. "My job as a professor is to teach the students that are in my class. The administration's job is to get them to the university and put them in my class. I've been doing my part this whole time. The administration has been falling down on the task of keeping enrollment where it should be."

While the enrollment burp from 5 years ago is over, and it is the administration's job to manage that, the faculty do have a shared responsibility to attract people to their courses in addition to teaching them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on April 08, 2021, 10:26:15 AM
By the way, AJU was a magnet for sizable donations from LA area bigwigs. But even so, its just not the sort of stuff that helps when students aren't interested in what you have to offer.  There's probably a lot of interest in the non-degree stuff, especially on-line courses during the pandemic, but I really doubt that's the kind of thing that can keep the doors open at a posh campus. Maybe they won't completely die, but they'll just  merge and merge and merge with other Jewish non-profits most likely, and just drift away from their mission, and  then quietly mostly die.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 08, 2021, 10:29:37 AM
Quote from: Hibush on April 08, 2021, 10:02:32 AM
Quote from: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on April 08, 2021, 09:13:34 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 08, 2021, 07:46:38 AM
University of Oregon states they won't reduce faculty pay, hiring freeze and pay raise freeze remain in place: https://around.uoregon.edu/content/university-announces-elimination-pay-reduction-plan
Original source linked within the article has quite telling statement by a faculty member:
"It really feels like a betrayal at a very deep level," Perlman said. "My job as a professor is to teach the students that are in my class. The administration's job is to get them to the university and put them in my class. I've been doing my part this whole time. The administration has been falling down on the task of keeping enrollment where it should be."

While the enrollment burp from 5 years ago is over, and it is the administration's job to manage that, the faculty do have a shared responsibility to attract people to their courses in addition to teaching them.

The blame-game provides a vent for frustration and anxiety, even when it is not deserved.

At the same time, admin are paid hefty salaries and presumably have worked their way up the ladder.  They should know how to do stuff.  There is only so much a faculty member can realistically do to attract students.  The standard wisdom is that faculty should produce works of great merit which will bring prestige to the university----but that is easier said than done, and I don't know if the kinds of things we do, generally speaking, would excite a lot of students.  Another university academic fair?  Sure, why not?  Meet with potential students if they come through?  Okay.

Still, the people in our development office are paid a lot more than I am.  I suspect it is the same at the U of O.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on April 08, 2021, 10:54:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 08, 2021, 10:29:37 AM
Quote from: Hibush on April 08, 2021, 10:02:32 AM
While the enrollment burp from 5 years ago is over, and it is the administration's job to manage that, the faculty do have a shared responsibility to attract people to their courses in addition to teaching them.

The blame-game provides a vent for frustration and anxiety, even when it is not deserved.

At the same time, admin are paid hefty salaries and presumably have worked their way up the ladder.  They should know how to do stuff.  There is only so much a faculty member can realistically do to attract students.  The standard wisdom is that faculty should produce works of great merit which will bring prestige to the university----but that is easier said than done, and I don't know if the kinds of things we do, generally speaking, would excite a lot of students.  Another university academic fair?  Sure, why not?  Meet with potential students if they come through?  Okay.

Still, the people in our development office are paid a lot more than I am.  I suspect it is the same at the U of O.
It is interesting how people focus on the different parts of the statement:
partially reasonable expectation for administrators to be working on increasing enrollment in the university overall Vs completely entitled demand to put students in the specific class.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on April 08, 2021, 11:47:14 AM
More PASSHE: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/04/08/union-survey-slams-pennsylvania-university-merger-plans
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Istiblennius on April 08, 2021, 11:53:20 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 08, 2021, 07:30:31 AM
Western Oregon continues to discontinue programs and cut faculty positions https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/04/08/cuts-hit-faculty-philosophy-western-oregon

This actually is not a continuation; it simply took this long to work out the details of laying off 4 tenured faculty and curtailing three majors that have, as mentioned in the article, served about 1% of the total student body going back to pre-pandemic. Western is also continuing to offer classes (and retain some faculty) in the affected areas through other grad requirements like honors and gen ed. The majors just won't be available anymore.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 08, 2021, 12:11:39 PM
Quote from: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on April 08, 2021, 09:13:34 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 08, 2021, 07:46:38 AM
University of Oregon states they won't reduce faculty pay, hiring freeze and pay raise freeze remain in place: https://around.uoregon.edu/content/university-announces-elimination-pay-reduction-plan
Original source linked within the article has quite telling statement by a faculty member:
"It really feels like a betrayal at a very deep level," Perlman said. "My job as a professor is to teach the students that are in my class. The administration's job is to get them to the university and put them in my class. I've been doing my part this whole time. The administration has been falling down on the task of keeping enrollment where it should be."

Well, the prof's basically right in the sense that the administration is responsible for doing whatever is necessary to support the academic side.  At the same time, there is so much that can go wrong that doesn't fall under "administrative goof-ups."  That faculty member doesn't give the impression of having thought much about this. 

And yes, like it or not the members of the faculty do have some responsibility for trying to recruit students to their classes and programs.  They can't expect it all to be done for them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 09, 2021, 06:21:51 PM
Remember last year about this time when the chancellor of Vermont State Colleges System said the options were consolidate or close and then that chancellor was abruptly gone?

The Vermont State Colleges System has just announced a plan to consolidate 3 of the 4 institutions: https://vtdigger.org/2021/03/18/castleton-community-braces-for-change-as-merger-transition-begins/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on April 09, 2021, 09:39:51 PM
Quote from: apl68 on April 08, 2021, 07:27:24 AM
Hope that their collections of rare books and documents are well taken care of.  Sounds like there would be a lot of cultural value there.

They may be able to do something like what Episcopal Divinity School's library did in 2017. The books Union Seminary could use (where the EDS 'saving remnant' of 4 faculty was re-located) traveled with them to NYC. The (few) archival items they had probably either went to Union itself, or (maybe by agreement) to the close-by, better-set-up Columbia U. Library's archives. Some probably also went into diocesan archival storage.

An alumnus/a (anonymous donor) paid for all the books that were left (after a huge book sale) to be shipped to a Kenyan theology school library.

Sad to say, the ANTS library didn't fare so well on its dissolution, within a year or so of EDS: dumpsters full of books sat behind that library when it closed.

Options for the AJU collection might include Hebrew College in Newton (if they have an archival site, not just a regular library) or one of the NY or Chicago schools. Rare books and objects like scrolls might go to individual faith communities by private sale, or they may have to be auctioned to meet the terms of the dissolution (unless they already sold them off to try to keep afloat, if they could: restricted donations' secondary designations have to be followed).

You and the other librarians here probably know all this stuff better than I do...those are just situations I know of directly.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 10, 2021, 07:05:13 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 09, 2021, 06:21:51 PM
Remember last year about this time when the chancellor of Vermont State Colleges System said the options were consolidate or close and then that chancellor was abruptly gone?

The Vermont State Colleges System has just announced a plan to consolidate 3 of the 4 institutions: https://vtdigger.org/2021/03/18/castleton-community-braces-for-change-as-merger-transition-begins/

And one of those three was already a product of a recent consolidation deal!  It's not hard to see why they're having to do this.  Vermont is such a little state to have so many institutions. 

I notice that the three schools are cutting a lot of majors between them.  At least they're letting the students already in the programs finish, so that they're not left hanging.  They're trying to downsize in a controlled manner, before things get desperate and messy.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 10, 2021, 07:40:23 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 10, 2021, 07:05:13 AM
They're trying to downsize in a controlled manner, before things get desperate and messy.

Unfortunately, the time for that was about ten to fifteen years ago.  It was desperate starting about five years ago when the little colleges in the region started their true death spirals that have already resulted in closures.

It's going to be messier than it had to be because they weren't working as a larger group to make joint decisions and even now aren't really working as a group of all higher ed institutions in New England or even Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine to preserve some smaller, rural colleges.  Southern New Hampshire and the elite Boston-area institutions are going to be the winners here.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on April 10, 2021, 10:56:20 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 10, 2021, 07:40:23 AM
the elite Boston-area institutions are going to be the winners here.

I would make that the *non*-elite Boston area institutions (or maybe that's what you meant to type?). The elite ones certainly don't need any help attracting students!

I can imagine some non-elite SLACs, and peer publics (since there is partial reciprocity within New England) may attract some displaced students who want to stay driving distance from home, though since the consolidation is necessitated by over-capacity in the first place, it's not clear how many "excess" students Vermont will really have even post-consolidation.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on April 10, 2021, 01:26:56 PM
The elites won't have trouble attracting students, but they might have trouble staying elite, at least in an absolute sense, if they have to go way down the list to fill a 1st year student class. Of course, everyone is in the same boat.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 10, 2021, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: Puget on April 10, 2021, 10:56:20 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 10, 2021, 07:40:23 AM
the elite Boston-area institutions are going to be the winners here.

I would make that the *non*-elite Boston area institutions (or maybe that's what you meant to type?). The elite ones certainly don't need any help attracting students!

I can imagine some non-elite SLACs, and peer publics (since there is partial reciprocity within New England) may attract some displaced students who want to stay driving distance from home, though since the consolidation is necessitated by over-capacity in the first place, it's not clear how many "excess" students Vermont will really have even post-consolidation.

No, I meant elite because they will pick up all the desirable students in the region without having to lower their standards.  Indeed, the slightly-less desirable students will be courted by better institutions than would have been likely twenty years ago.  It will be a good time to be a desirable student as long as one's heart isn't Harvard specifically.

There won't be excess desirable students (academically prepared with a bright future as an alum or full pay or both) for the non-elite institutions in the region to pick up.  Instead, those institutions will consolidate or just close through lack of sufficient funding because they are so dependent on current enrollment and there aren't enough bodies after the elites and next tier have made their classes.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on April 10, 2021, 05:33:53 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 10, 2021, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: Puget on April 10, 2021, 10:56:20 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 10, 2021, 07:40:23 AM
the elite Boston-area institutions are going to be the winners here.

I would make that the *non*-elite Boston area institutions (or maybe that's what you meant to type?). The elite ones certainly don't need any help attracting students!

I can imagine some non-elite SLACs, and peer publics (since there is partial reciprocity within New England) may attract some displaced students who want to stay driving distance from home, though since the consolidation is necessitated by over-capacity in the first place, it's not clear how many "excess" students Vermont will really have even post-consolidation.

No, I meant elite because they will pick up all the desirable students in the region without having to lower their standards.  Indeed, the slightly-less desirable students will be courted by better institutions than would have been likely twenty years ago.  It will be a good time to be a desirable student as long as one's heart isn't Harvard specifically.

There won't be excess desirable students (academically prepared with a bright future as an alum or full pay or both) for the non-elite institutions in the region to pick up.  Instead, those institutions will consolidate or just close through lack of sufficient funding because they are so dependent on current enrollment and there aren't enough bodies after the elites and next tier have made their classes.

Maybe we have different definitions of "elite" then-- Harvard and MIT et al. don't primarily draw from the region (national and international applicant base), and could fill their classes many times over from their current applicants with no appreciable drop-off in quality.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pepsi_alum on April 10, 2021, 10:16:44 PM
Re: PASSHE -- the system has been in distress for several years and I'm frankly surprised that anyone is surprised at this point. My last place interviewed and ultimately hired someone from one of the schools mentioned upthread as facing consolidation.  We were honest with that candidate about some of the challenges in our own system. Their response was "Oh, I know. I'm quite certain my current job won't exist in another three years, so this would be an improvement."

I can't really go into too many details about what's happening at my current place lest I out myself. I'm in a state with a growing population, but the pandemic has caused major financial problems for us. We're in a very strict hiring freeze this year that will probably last at least two more years, and although we've avoided layoffs so far, the consensus seems to be that there are unfortunately going to have to be layoffs at some point in the next 1-2 semesters. I think my department is okay in that regard, but I don't really know what will happen. If I get the axe, I'll see it as an opportunity. (I've had one foot out the door of academia for the paste several years, and a layoff might be the inspiration I need to finally move on to something else outside of higher ed).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 11, 2021, 02:58:14 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 10, 2021, 01:26:56 PM
The elites won't have trouble attracting students, but they might have trouble staying elite, at least in an absolute sense, if they have to go way down the list to fill a 1st year student class. Of course, everyone is in the same boat.

While all the schools may be on the same ocean, they are very different boats. Some are overloaded refugee vessels hoping to be rescued at sea, some are gigantic cruise ships, some sturdy fishing vessels, and many more.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 11, 2021, 08:31:47 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 10, 2021, 05:33:53 PM
Maybe we have different definitions of "elite" then-- Harvard and MIT et al. don't primarily draw from the region (national and international applicant base), and could fill their classes many times over from their current applicants with no appreciable drop-off in quality.

If the definition of elite is Harvard and MIT, then there's not an et al. that matters on the East Coast.

However, there's a whole next tier that is elite by any reasonable definition related to new student selectivity, alumni outcomes, and disconnect from a middle class defined by family income of approximately $70k.  Those places with enrollment of a few thousand students and a list price above $30k per year in just tuition will brag about their national representation, but they have a lot of regional students.  Even most of the Ivy League isn't Harvard.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/04/06/how-private-college-fortified-finances-amid-pandemic was a recent story published by IHE.  I'd never heard of Endicott and 70-80% admittance rates doesn't look all that selective.  However, a 16% Pell, >90% full-time, >90% residential, only 7% drop out rate with only 3% delinquent student loans and 17% student loans paid in full, they look elite enough that the admissions rate may be a result of most applicants being qualified.

Emerson College is more elite by most measures and there have been a steady trickle of stories over past few years of announced alliances (including absorbing Marlboro in Vermontt), new programs, and other activities only available to those with resources.  Emerson isn't Harvard, but someone who can get into Emerson with excellent financial aid wasn't going to Southern Vermont (closed recently) or Castleton (being merged again in Vermont).

As one of the Reddit commentators stated on the IHE story, the lesson for small colleges appears to be:

a) have chosen well in location geographically near the rich people who aren't set on Harvard/MIT at founding

b) leveraged well the resources afforded by having rich alumni and local friends for decades

c) in general ensured the rich people think you are elite enough because you have so few merely middle-class students.  A handful of bright scholarship students makes elitists feel virtuous.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 12, 2021, 09:00:01 PM
Update on Laurentian: 58 UG programs axed, 11 grad programs, and at least 100 faculty gone. The university was apparently weeks away from not making its payroll.  Link (https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5982114&ved=2ahUKEwij4ZWOq_rvAhVEuZ4KHZWtBM0Q0PADegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw2W6Adnq2GPuBVquscHixkf&ampcf=1)

Holy shit. That's a major blow to the region.

Edit: Also, the list of cut program.st the bottom of the article is eye-widening. Especially if you bear in mind what's in the vicinity--including the kinds of work people do up there.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 13, 2021, 05:08:11 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 12, 2021, 09:00:01 PM
Update on Laurentian: 58 UG programs axed, 11 grad programs, and at least 80 faculty gone. The university was apparently weeks away from not making its payroll.  Link (https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5982114&ved=2ahUKEwij4ZWOq_rvAhVEuZ4KHZWtBM0Q0PADegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw2W6Adnq2GPuBVquscHixkf&ampcf=1)

Holy shit. That's a major blow to the region.

Edit: Also, the list of cut program.st the bottom of the article is eye-widening. Especially if you bear in mind what's in the vicinity--including the kinds of work people do up there.

If they cut 69 programs and 100 profs (according tho the article), then that suggests a lot of those programs must have had tiny enrollments. Programs with significant enrollment simply can't run without a significant number of faculty.

It would be good to know how many programs are left, and how many faculty. I'd guess the ratio of remaining faculty to remaining programs would be significantly larger that 100/69.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 13, 2021, 05:33:47 AM
The article says 10% of undergraduates will be affected. Laurentian's undergraduate enrollment is 9,000. So eliminated undergrad programs roughly have 900 students in them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 13, 2021, 05:34:51 AM
Pacific Lutheran University: https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article247922835.html (https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article247922835.html).

The school declared financial exigency in November.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on April 13, 2021, 06:33:29 AM
Quote from: spork on April 13, 2021, 05:34:51 AM
Pacific Lutheran University: https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article247922835.html (https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article247922835.html).

The school declared financial exigency in November.

Yes I believe we discussed them here back then. They are probably pretty representative of a lot of religiously affiliated places that are struggling-- they once had a target student population (the Lutheran decedents of the many Scandinavian immigrants who settled the area) but they don't really anymore, and it isn't clear why an in-state student would choose them over the nearby UW, or why an out of state student would choose them at all.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 13, 2021, 06:59:09 AM
Quote from: spork on April 13, 2021, 05:33:47 AM
The article says 10% of undergraduates will be affected. Laurentian's undergraduate enrollment is 9,000. So eliminated undergrad programs roughly have 900 students in them.

Before the cuts they had about 165 programs and ~380 faculty (IIRC--and about 900 admin staff) Note also that the cuts fall disproportionately on the university's French programming. I doubt that's a coincidence, given the Ford government's attitude towards Franco-Ontarians and their educational opportunities.

I wonder whether the Sudbury Neutrino Observatory will survive.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 13, 2021, 07:11:35 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 13, 2021, 06:33:29 AM
Quote from: spork on April 13, 2021, 05:34:51 AM
Pacific Lutheran University: https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article247922835.html (https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article247922835.html).

The school declared financial exigency in November.

Yes I believe we discussed them here back then. They are probably pretty representative of a lot of religiously affiliated places that are struggling-- they once had a target student population (the Lutheran decedents of the many Scandinavian immigrants who settled the area) but they don't really anymore, and it isn't clear why an in-state student would choose them over the nearby UW, or why an out of state student would choose them at all.

I have family who went there.  The campus is gorgeous and it is within striking distance of Seattle and all sorts of extraordinarily beautiful natural spaces.  Puget Sound kind of rocks.  I would guess Puget knows this.   The highways are almost unmanageable now that the California exodus and Midwest brain drain have begun, however, and for some reason these waves of immigrants to the NW leave their college-age kids somewhere else.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 13, 2021, 07:16:38 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 13, 2021, 06:59:09 AM
Quote from: spork on April 13, 2021, 05:33:47 AM
The article says 10% of undergraduates will be affected. Laurentian's undergraduate enrollment is 9,000. So eliminated undergrad programs roughly have 900 students in them.

Before the cuts they had about 165 programs and ~380 faculty (IIRC--and about 900 admin staff) Note also that the cuts fall disproportionately on the university's French programming. I doubt that's a coincidence, given the Ford government's attitude towards Franco-Ontarians and their educational opportunities.

I wonder whether the Sudbury Neutrino Observatory will survive.

Here's some interesting analysis (https://www.northernontariobusiness.com/industry-news/training-education/opinion-the-bigger-picture-comparing-laurentian-university-and-universite-de-lontario-francais-to-the-national-post-secondary-landscape-3592803):
Quote
(For comparative purposes, Laurentian University has approximately 9,000 students, with a majority enrolled in English programs and courses). But many of the Franco-Ontarian students appear to choose to study in English language or bilingual programs despite the students being typically bilingual as is the case in New Brunswick. They, and their parents, do not necessarily accept the cultural-political imperative of studying in French, which is one of the most important issues to be addressed.

While there is no numerical shortage of potential students for Ontario's francophone institutions and programs, the reality is that the applications and enrollments continue to fall short of what is desired.


Keeping programs running with low interest would be for political reasons.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 13, 2021, 07:18:27 AM
Quote from: spork on April 13, 2021, 05:33:47 AM
The article says 10% of undergraduates will be affected. Laurentian's undergraduate enrollment is 9,000. So eliminated undergrad programs roughly have 900 students in them.

Also note that the 10% figure excludes students at the federated universities, which are also impacted by the cuts (not least because that's where most of the French programming comes from, and it's suffering a massive chunk of the cuts).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 13, 2021, 07:30:35 AM
Quote from: spork on April 13, 2021, 05:34:51 AM
Pacific Lutheran University: https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article247922835.html (https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article247922835.html).

The school declared financial exigency in November.

They're talking about eliminating 40 staff positions.  Pretty substantial for a school with about 3,000 students, though not as drastic as some cuts we've seen on this thread.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on April 13, 2021, 07:47:13 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 13, 2021, 07:18:27 AM
Quote from: spork on April 13, 2021, 05:33:47 AM
The article says 10% of undergraduates will be affected. Laurentian's undergraduate enrollment is 9,000. So eliminated undergrad programs roughly have 900 students in them.

Also note that the 10% figure excludes students at the federated universities, which are also impacted by the cuts (not least because that's where most of the French programming comes from, and it's suffering a massive chunk of the cuts).

I can't speak to Canadian bilingual issues, but I have noticed a strong shift between generational attitudes towards language use and learning in France and Belgium between friends of my grandparents/great-aunt's generation there, in the 1970s, and friends of my own age and younger in the 1990s and since.

The older generation was very resistant to using or using English (one person wondered if it was because they resented needing UK/US help in WWII) and the governmental stance (when I knew of it most directly, about 10 years ago) was that, due to high unemployment, unless native-speaker-level English was needed for a job (a friend worked first as a British international commerce lawyer's paralegal, and later as an EA at OECD in Paris, for example) those who were not of French origin were not given priority for openings.

The older generation only wanted to speak French when we visited, which was fine with me, since I wanted all the practice I could get.

Meanwhile more recently, students have recognized that the jobs they want will all require English fluency and they all want to practice their English--a couple of friends do the "You speak French-I'll speak English--and we'll correct each other" thing...others just make a point of emailing or writing in English and expecting me to reply likewise.

So, the language issues in Canada might be similar--where there are societal trends, economic causes may not be far behind...

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 13, 2021, 07:55:29 AM
Quote from: mamselle on April 13, 2021, 07:47:13 AM

So, the language issues in Canada might be similar--where there are societal trends, economic causes may not be far behind...

M.

And to be clear, if people want university education in French, Universite de Montreal and Laval, (in Montreal and Quebec city, respectively), are bigger and with more programs, and they're in interesting places with much bigger francophone populations. Sudbury can't compete.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on April 13, 2021, 08:40:08 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 13, 2021, 07:11:35 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 13, 2021, 06:33:29 AM
Quote from: spork on April 13, 2021, 05:34:51 AM
Pacific Lutheran University: https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article247922835.html (https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article247922835.html).

The school declared financial exigency in November.

Yes I believe we discussed them here back then. They are probably pretty representative of a lot of religiously affiliated places that are struggling-- they once had a target student population (the Lutheran decedents of the many Scandinavian immigrants who settled the area) but they don't really anymore, and it isn't clear why an in-state student would choose them over the nearby UW, or why an out of state student would choose them at all.

I have family who went there.  The campus is gorgeous and it is within striking distance of Seattle and all sorts of extraordinarily beautiful natural spaces.  Puget Sound kind of rocks.  I would guess Puget knows this.  The highways are almost unmanageable now that the California exodus and Midwest brain drain have begun, however, and for some reason these waves of immigrants to the NW leave their college-age kids somewhere else.

I do indeed ;-) As you may have guessed I grew up around there.

The California invasion is not new-- twenty or more years ago you get t-shirts that negatively described the weather on one side and said "don't move here" on the other.

I don't think the problem is loss of population, but rather that a very good education with more variety of courses and opportunities can be had at much lower cost at UW (which also has a branch campus in Tacoma). That will be the default option for most students in the area, so PLU would need to figure out what it can offer that UW can't, and apparently they haven't been doing a great job of that.

The PNW just also doesn't have as much as a tradition of private higher ed (or K-12 for that matter), with more reliance on pubic universities. I'm sure the historians and sociologists among us may have some theories about why that is-- I'm neither, but would hypothesize later settlement, lower religiosity, and a more egalitarian culture that disfavors too many class signifiers.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 13, 2021, 08:46:14 AM
I remember Oregon Gov. Tom McCall:

"We want you to visit our State of Excitement often. Come again and again. But for heaven's sake, don't move here to live. Or if you do have to move in to live, don't tell any of your neighbors where you are going." (1971)

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 13, 2021, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 13, 2021, 07:55:29 AM
Quote from: mamselle on April 13, 2021, 07:47:13 AM

So, the language issues in Canada might be similar--where there are societal trends, economic causes may not be far behind...

M.

And to be clear, if people want university education in French, Universite de Montreal and Laval, (in Montreal and Quebec city, respectively), are bigger and with more programs, and they're in interesting places with much bigger francophone populations. Sudbury can't compete.

And UQAM.

That's all certainly true, although it's worth noting that Sudbury is a bilingual city (it's about 26% Franco and 66% Anglo. That obviously doesn't compare to Montréal or Québec, but it's pretty good). Ontario's Francophone population is large enough to support university programming; it's also not primarily located in sourthern Ontario, so the geographic issues are real. Travelling to Québec is a ways for that population (i.e. northern Ontarians, not just Sudbury folk) to travel, and the further afield they go to university the less likely they are to return to their communities in northern Ontario. The more likely upshot is just that they don't pursue any further education in French at all, and we can expect that to have a deleterious effect on the Franco-Ontarian community.

It's really gonna hollow out the local economy, though. The cuts are actually more widespread than they look, because what's being reported are LU cuts, not cuts at the federated colleges. Also, a number of the programs that aren't officially on the chopping block will also ultimately be cut because they're made up of courses in departments (or federated colleges) that got the axe.

Nor is it only faculty in the cut departments who are being fired (via group Zoom meetings): I know of at least one prominent computer scientist who's fired, and my sister's entire Master's committee got the axe (she's in the sciences).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 13, 2021, 12:14:55 PM
More on Laurentian (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/federated-universities-thorneloe-huntington-sudbury-terminated-restructuring-1.5974539):

Quote
Colin blames the Minister of Colleges and Universities, Ross Romano, for failing to come to the rescue of the institution and engage in the CCAA process.

He also points the finger at poor governance practices of Laurentian's senior administration over several years.


So it's both the government's fault and the fault of years of bad administration.

Apples AND oranges, apparently.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 13, 2021, 01:10:56 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 13, 2021, 12:14:55 PM
More on Laurentian (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/federated-universities-thorneloe-huntington-sudbury-terminated-restructuring-1.5974539):

Quote
Colin blames the Minister of Colleges and Universities, Ross Romano, for failing to come to the rescue of the institution and engage in the CCAA process.

He also points the finger at poor governance practices of Laurentian's senior administration over several years.


So it's both the government's fault and the fault of years of bad administration.

Apples AND oranges, apparently.

Well, three budgets in a row of higher ed funding cuts certainly didn't help. All the northern universities (i.e. Algoma, Lakehead, Nipissing) have struggled recently, especially because they don't have the same access to international students as universities in sourthern Ontario do. IIRC Laurentian's public funding has fallen to ~26% from around 80% back in the day (the decline precedes this government, of course). I haven't kept up enough to know how involved/responsible Romano is, but he doesn't strike me as the sharpest--or best-intentioned--knife in the drawer.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 13, 2021, 01:53:53 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 13, 2021, 01:10:56 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 13, 2021, 12:14:55 PM
More on Laurentian (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/federated-universities-thorneloe-huntington-sudbury-terminated-restructuring-1.5974539):

Quote
Colin blames the Minister of Colleges and Universities, Ross Romano, for failing to come to the rescue of the institution and engage in the CCAA process.

He also points the finger at poor governance practices of Laurentian's senior administration over several years.


So it's both the government's fault and the fault of years of bad administration.

Apples AND oranges, apparently.

Well, three budgets in a row of higher ed funding cuts certainly didn't help. All the northern universities (i.e. Algoma, Lakehead, Nipissing) have struggled recently, especially because they don't have the same access to international students as universities in sourthern Ontario do. IIRC Laurentian's public funding has fallen to ~26% from around 80% back in the day (the decline precedes this government, of course). I haven't kept up enough to know how involved/responsible Romano is, but he doesn't strike me as the sharpest--or best-intentioned--knife in the drawer.

It still seems kind of an indictment of academia that in all of the people they interviewed, with all of the expertise of the academics involved, that while everyone says the institution must be saved, not a single person offers any economically reasonable suggestion for anything, other than the government just giving them more. Is EVERY SINGLE program absolutely vital? No matter what the economics are?

This kind of uncompromising stance creates a kind of symbiosis with a government who is happy to cut funding since there's no room whatsoever for (and thus no value in) compromise.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 13, 2021, 02:25:37 PM
I read through the lists of closed programs at Laurentian and said, yup, those are the programs that tend to be cut when cuts happen.

If one can go to Montreal or Quebec, then why would one accept Sudbury? 150k population isn't at all competitive for those who want an urban center and is much too huge for the country mice among us.

The fact that paring back Laurentian hits the region hard is closely related to why urbanites would want to be elsewhere with many more jobs and country mice would rather be living off the land instead of precarious employment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 14, 2021, 07:58:52 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 13, 2021, 02:25:37 PM
I read through the lists of closed programs at Laurentian and said, yup, those are the programs that tend to be cut when cuts happen.

It's surprising because many of those programs have good employment outcomes, and quite a few are (well, were) cornerstones of the university's brand identity as it (and the city) tried to shift away from total reliance on the mine and towards new horizons. Those environmental programs (now cut!) were instrumental in re-greening a city that was, just thirty years ago, pretty gross thanks to the nickel mining, and restoring the surrounding landscape.

It may well be that those programs were unsustainable; I don't know. But I don't trust that a corporate insolvency structure--which has never been used for a university before, and which wasn't necessary (since other protective measures were available)--made calls in the university's (or public's) best interests.



Quote

If one can go to Montreal or Quebec, then why would one accept Sudbury? 150k population isn't at all competitive for those who want an urban center and is much too huge for the country mice among us.


It's mostly a question of affordability. That chunk of Ontario is remote and empty. Heading to southern Ontario or Québec is prohibitively expensive for a lot of people; heading to Sudbury, not so much.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 14, 2021, 08:14:26 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 14, 2021, 07:58:52 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 13, 2021, 02:25:37 PM

If one can go to Montreal or Quebec, then why would one accept Sudbury? 150k population isn't at all competitive for those who want an urban center and is much too huge for the country mice among us.


It's mostly a question of affordability. That chunk of Ontario is remote and empty. Heading to southern Ontario or Québec is prohibitively expensive for a lot of people; heading to Sudbury, not so much.

There's also the University of Ottawa that has a lot of French language programs. It's probably the closest option for people who still want to study in French. (And some of the students will actually live between Ottawa and Sudbury, so it may even be closer.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 14, 2021, 08:44:13 AM
Laurentian is designated under Ontario's French Language Services Act, so its French programming is supposed to be protected. We'll see how that plays out.

Also worth noting that midwifery (cut!) was subject to provincial caps and was always full and with a long waitlist. The cuts are about paying creditors back immediately, not viability or long-term health.

There's some excellent reporting on the restructuring process here (https://higheredstrategy.com/laurentian-blues-7-the-process/).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 14, 2021, 09:44:04 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 14, 2021, 08:44:13 AM
Laurentian is designated under Ontario's French Language Services Act, so its French programming is supposed to be protected. We'll see how that plays out.

Also worth noting that midwifery (cut!) was subject to provincial caps and was always full and with a long waitlist. The cuts are about paying creditors back immediately, not viability or long-term health.

There's some excellent reporting on the restructuring process here (https://higheredstrategy.com/laurentian-blues-7-the-process/).

Important paragraph:

"The real problem here, of course, is that Laurentian's leadership waited until it was much too late to confront its financial problems.  It did not really admit a serious problem until it was far too late and the actual options on the table were so terrible that CCAA seemed like the only option.  Because of the ridiculous secrecy involved in the CCAA process, there is no way to know for sure why Laurentian got backed into this kind of corner.  Was it because well-meaning people kept losing small amounts of money every year, and, like a poor gambler, kept hoping they could turn it around until COVID hit?  Or was there actually some kind of malfeasance involved that was kept under wraps?  We should know, but we simply don't."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 14, 2021, 10:16:58 AM
Some interesting stuff from the timeline of Laurentian's finances (https://cdn.knightlab.com/libs/timeline3/latest/embed/index.html?source=1i7P57g7wMuCoxtUKUDnmhh2i4cYQe8v8G0AaRxeJaRA&font=Default&lang=en&initial_zoom=2):

Quote
At the end of the 2006-7 year, LU was at the peak of its fiscal health with an accumulated surplus of $8.1M. Under the direction of President Judith Woodsworth, LU had erased an accumulated deficit that in 2000 had grown as large as $6.4M. However, between 2001 and 2007, LU generated surpluses every year, with the exception of an $860k deficit in 2003.

If only they had continued....

Quote
For example, as late as 2017, LU boasted that it "balances [its] budget for seventh consecutive year."
Despite its ability to approve balanced budgets, the LU Board of Governors oversaw deficits in every year of Campus Modernization except 2017-18 (and the restated 2012-13). The Board increased LU's accumulated deficit to at least $32.3M by the end of 2017-18.

In addition, LU's long-term debt grew from $54.2M in 2012 to $96.3M in 2018.


Over slightly more than a decade, they went from an accumulated surplus of $8.1M and long term debt of  $3.8M and a balanced budget to an accumulated deficit of $32.3M  and long-term debt of $96.3M.

Given that all of the Ontario universities get their funding from the same provincial government, a lot of that change in fortune was obviously due to decisions made at Laurentian; i.e. not the government's fault.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 14, 2021, 10:59:39 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 14, 2021, 10:16:58 AM

Over slightly more than a decade, they went from an accumulated surplus of $8.1M and long term debt of  $3.8M and a balanced budget to an accumulated deficit of $32.3M  and long-term debt of $96.3M.

Given that all of the Ontario universities get their funding from the same provincial government, a lot of that change in fortune was obviously due to decisions made at Laurentian; i.e. not the government's fault.

I imagine most of that stems from their building spree of the last few years (IIRC, it was ~$100mil).

I remember when Queen's got caught out by its own building spree back around 2008. It seems like a fairly common occurrence; you'd think they'd learn not to get caught out the same way.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 14, 2021, 02:20:28 PM
It's easy to see what people should have done after the fact, not always before. Who could possibly see 2008, Trump, or COVID coming?     
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 14, 2021, 03:02:35 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 14, 2021, 02:20:28 PM
It's easy to see what people should have done after the fact, not always before. Who could possibly see 2008, Trump, or COVID coming?   

But that's the irony; Laurentian came into 2008 debt-free and with a balanced budget. They should have sailed through pretty smoothly. The "building spree" didn't happen overnight, or all at once, so the decision makers just embraced their fantasies rather than following the kind of rational course that they'd been on for the few years prior and apparently kept doubling down on the idea of "If we build it, they will come."

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 14, 2021, 04:25:16 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 14, 2021, 07:58:52 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 13, 2021, 02:25:37 PM
I read through the lists of closed programs at Laurentian and said, yup, those are the programs that tend to be cut when cuts happen.

It's surprising because many of those programs have good employment outcomes, and quite a few are (well, were) cornerstones of the university's brand identity as it (and the city) tried to shift away from total reliance on the mine and towards new horizons. Those environmental programs (now cut!) were instrumental in re-greening a city that was, just thirty years ago, pretty gross thanks to the nickel mining, and restoring the surrounding landscape.

It may well be that those programs were unsustainable; I don't know.
Choosing a poor new brand identity isn't new in higher ed, especially places that are seeking a new mission as a running from instead of an embracing to.

I am not at all surprised that environmental programs are on the chopping block, especially if math and physics are also being chopped.  Those programs tend to be unsustainable as a trendy mission of the past few decades.  The people who successfully remediate regions as leaders then move on to the next place. 

The jobs doing remediation every day are mostly not the people with the environmental studies degrees.  Those specific degrees are much less useful than a strong back or being engineer in something else who has specialized in remediation as part of graduate work.

History has not been kind to mining places that picked their new mission as environmentalism without the strong science and relevant engineering, especially the supposed jobs are local instead of international.  French knowledge of the intro science is far less useful than English proficiency at the advanced science.

Midwifery may be in demand, but I bet it's expensive to run.  At one point, Super Dinky was losing hundreds of dollars for every nursing credit delivered.  The break even point was something like 3 people fewer than the maximum capacity and there was no way to back fill upper-division students who left for personal reasons.

I did research related to finances for potential new majors at Super Dinky.  The high-demand majors were too expensive to start up and run for the first three years.  Yep, we could have had 50 new students in athletic training, but getting that set up was $3M minimum along with trying to hire high-demand faculty who could choose to live somewhere other than the cornfields.

The majors we could afford to start were generally not going to fill fast enough to be sustaining within three years because there were so many more slots already in the region than students and no one is moving cross-country to major in English or philosophy at a no-name place while paying $40k.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 14, 2021, 05:46:16 PM
The hits just keep coming.

IHE: Faculty Salaries falling (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/04/13/faculty-salaries-decreased-year)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on April 14, 2021, 06:53:02 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 14, 2021, 05:46:16 PM
The hits just keep coming.

IHE: Faculty Salaries falling (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/04/13/faculty-salaries-decreased-year)

Not good reading.

But even if the headline says the numbers don't include layoffs, I bet they include retirements.

N=1, so take that for what it's worth, but my place was decimated by retirements and deaths. More than decimated, since we lost about 20% of f/t faculty. Most were tenured, many were Full, and several had been Full for decades. They are (slowly) being replaced, but in the manner that you'd expect: t/t hires, VAPs, and adjuncts. Until enrollment and the job markets stabilize a bit more, we are going to proceed cautiously.

I know that we are an outlier. Pre-Covid, the average age of f/t faculty was north of 60; it is much lower now. And the average salary is much lower, even if you keep it within rank brackets. (It's one of the reasons that we've avoided furloughs and layoffs.)

But I don't think we're a total outlier.

There's been lots of talk about a demographic shift among students; I'm betting that we're going to see one among faculty, too.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on April 14, 2021, 08:17:50 PM
We are less extreme, but more or less expeiencing the same, though we have a huge middle aged cohort. When we all retire, the youngest faculty now will be in their forties and still have quite a bit of time left. If they can hire our replacements, then I think the college will be significantly younger. But things may change. Now more people are retiring early because covid and shaky enrollments have spooked people. It might be worse in 10 years...heck, we might not even exist, but we could be a little better off and maybe will want to work until they are 70 or 75.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 14, 2021, 08:51:05 PM
In the meantime, the U.S. pledges $125M in military aid to the Ukraine. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 15, 2021, 06:30:40 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 14, 2021, 08:51:05 PM
In the meantime, the U.S. pledges $125M in military aid to the Ukraine.

Yep. 

We want all combat to occur off US soil because sending money, materiel, and even troops is much better all around for us than dealing with domestic combat.  Failure to recognize that reality is why many academics should not be allowed to make national/state resource allocation decisions because they are lacking vital perspective.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 15, 2021, 06:35:58 AM
Back to Sudbury and the broader problem of losing competitiveness in the modern world.

I just read https://slate.com/business/2021/04/west-virginia-relocation-grants-morgantown-meh.html including the comments.  Morgantown is a nice place to visit, but the people with a future will be going to Pittsburgh or DC instead of attending WVU to plan to stay in the Morgantown area.  My bet is Sudbury has a similar situation.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 15, 2021, 07:32:06 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 15, 2021, 06:35:58 AM
Back to Sudbury and the broader problem of losing competitiveness in the modern world.

I just read https://slate.com/business/2021/04/west-virginia-relocation-grants-morgantown-meh.html including the comments.  Morgantown is a nice place to visit, but the people with a future will be going to Pittsburgh or DC instead of attending WVU to plan to stay in the Morgantown area.  My bet is Sudbury has a similar situation.

From the report I indicated earlier (https://www.northernontariobusiness.com/industry-news/training-education/opinion-the-bigger-picture-comparing-laurentian-university-and-universite-de-lontario-francais-to-the-national-post-secondary-landscape-3592803), since this is especially true for the French language programs:

Quote from: marshwiggle on April 13, 2021, 07:16:38 AM
Quote
But many of the Franco-Ontarian students appear to choose to study in English language or bilingual programs despite the students being typically bilingual as is the case in New Brunswick. They, and their parents, do not necessarily accept the cultural-political imperative of studying in French, which is one of the most important issues to be addressed.

While there is no numerical shortage of potential students for Ontario's francophone institutions and programs, the reality is that the applications and enrollments continue to fall short of what is desired.

The disconnect between what decision-makers think students and parents want, and what they actually want, is the big problem. The assumption about the "potential" students is that they

My sense is that small, struggling places make the same last two assumptions routinely, to their detriment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on April 15, 2021, 08:41:26 AM
Surprising part about Laurentian is that it was failing in a period when a number of international (i.e. extra lucrative) post-secondary students in the Canadian universities was rapidly increasing (it actually tripled over a decade). A rising tide did not lift all boats apparently.
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/201125/t003e-eng.htm (https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/201125/t003e-eng.htm)

Canadian OPT equivalent - aka PGWP - is much more generous for foreign students, so opportunities to stay in the country after graduating from a school in taiga, are not worse than for a school in the Toronto downtown.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 15, 2021, 08:50:32 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 15, 2021, 06:30:40 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 14, 2021, 08:51:05 PM
In the meantime, the U.S. pledges $125M in military aid to the Ukraine.

Yep. 

We want all combat to occur off US soil because sending money, materiel, and even troops is much better all around for us than dealing with domestic combat.  Failure to recognize that reality is why many academics should not be allowed to make national/state resource allocation decisions because they are lacking vital perspective.

Gosh, Polly.  I've never heard that one before.

Guess it is the Domino Effect all over again, huh?  That paranoia reeeeeeeaaaally worked out well for America and the world.

So you are saying Putin is coming here?

Failure to learn from the past is a reason that certain politicized fanatic thinkers should not be making any decisions because they are, well, fanatic thinkers with a skewed perspective.

Meanwhile, adult education in America takes a dive.   Putin would be most pleased since his overall objective is clearly to damage America.

Take that as rhetorical since we have already derailed the thread.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 15, 2021, 09:04:42 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 15, 2021, 06:35:58 AM
Back to Sudbury and the broader problem of losing competitiveness in the modern world.

I just read https://slate.com/business/2021/04/west-virginia-relocation-grants-morgantown-meh.html including the comments.  Morgantown is a nice place to visit, but the people with a future will be going to Pittsburgh or DC instead of attending WVU to plan to stay in the Morgantown area.  My bet is Sudbury has a similar situation.

This reminds me of regional state university campuses in a place like Maine; for example, Fort Kent, Presque Isle, Farmington. Town populations, respectively, are 3,800, 9,000, and 7,600. The state's flagship campus is 3.5 hours from Fort Kent. Or one can attend USM 5 hours away and be in a small city of 65,000 people.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 16, 2021, 07:26:55 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 14, 2021, 04:25:16 PM

Midwifery may be in demand, but I bet it's expensive to run.  At one point, Super Dinky was losing hundreds of dollars for every nursing credit delivered.  The break even point was something like 3 people fewer than the maximum capacity and there was no way to back fill upper-division students who left for personal reasons.


FWIW, it cost Laurentian zero dollars:

QuoteFormer midwifery school director Susan James said it was the only bilingual program of its kind in Ontario, and is funded by a government grant and not Laurentian's budget. She said it didn't cost the university anything and, in fact, it contributed tuition to Laurentian.

James said she's heard the program was closed because enrolment is capped at 30, and it can't grow, but she wonders if there are other reasons. (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/laurentian-university-midwifery-school-cut-reaction-1.5989455)

The enrollment cap comes from the province and can't be changed (it also makes this the largest midwifery program in Canada...). But if the program costs nothing, is always fully enrolled (they get 300 applications per year), is one of just three in the province, has a 100% employment rate after graduation, and brings in revenue (even if not a truckload), it's hard for me to see why you'd cut it, except because someone has an axe to grind. (I also imagine it piggybacked on the med school's infrastructure.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 16, 2021, 07:51:47 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 16, 2021, 07:26:55 AM

QuoteFormer midwifery school director Susan James said it was the only bilingual program of its kind in Ontario, and is funded by a government grant and not Laurentian's budget. She said it didn't cost the university anything and, in fact, it contributed tuition to Laurentian.

James said she's heard the program was closed because enrolment is capped at 30, and it can't grow, but she wonders if there are other reasons. (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/laurentian-university-midwifery-school-cut-reaction-1.5989455)

The enrollment cap comes from the province and can't be changed (it also makes this the largest midwifery program in Canada...). But if the program costs nothing, is always fully enrolled (they get 300 applications per year), is one of just three in the province, has a 100% employment rate after graduation, and brings in revenue (even if not a truckload), it's hard for me to see why you'd cut it, except because someone has an axe to grind. (I also imagine it piggybacked on the med school's infrastructure.)

This is assuming all of those statements are correct.

From the same article:
Quote
On Wednesday, the province announced plans to allow the Northern Ontario School of Medicine to become its own independent, degree-granting institution.

I wonder if the idea is to allow the midwifery program to relocate there, which may be a more appropriate home for it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 16, 2021, 08:07:44 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 16, 2021, 07:51:47 AM


This is assuming all of those statements are correct.



I mean, the claims come from the program itself (some are mentioned in that CBC article, others come from the petition (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScKNjuMRKb45dozuxs7X6U4UkWpidejVAnWogkzk8QvC8oJUg/viewform) the program generated to try to save itself). I don't see any real reason to doubt them. If anyone knows about those facts, it's the program itself.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 16, 2021, 08:29:37 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 16, 2021, 08:07:44 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 16, 2021, 07:51:47 AM


This is assuming all of those statements are correct.



I mean, the claims come from the program itself (some are mentioned in that CBC article, others come from the petition (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScKNjuMRKb45dozuxs7X6U4UkWpidejVAnWogkzk8QvC8oJUg/viewform) the program generated to try to save itself). I don't see any real reason to doubt them. If anyone knows about those facts, it's the program itself.

But if the program really is always full, and a money-maker, it makes absolutely no sense for it to be cancelled for financial reasons. In fact, it would be counter-productive. My guess is that there are some hidden costs that the program itself didn't mention that actually change the numbers. (If it's a money-maker, and always full, why not raise the cap and make more money?) As I believe you mentioned earlier, the program may use health sciences infrastructure, which doesn't actually show up in the midwifery budget; if all of that infrastructure were being shut down along with the associated programs, there may not be enough money generated by midwifery alone to support it.

In any discussion like this people on both sides of the issue present the situation in a self-serving manner. (The university doesn't seem anxious to draw attention to the decisions made in the last decade that put them in this situation, for instance.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 16, 2021, 09:10:36 AM
My understanding is that nobody knows the grounds for the cuts because the corporate insolvency process they're using doesn't require that sort of transparency.

It seems to me there's a good chance some of these cuts are ideologically-motivated, rather than financially-motivated.

Or the insolvency overseers decided to cut every program with enrollment below a certain threshold without regard for program finances. That would help explain the disproportionate cuts to French programming, as well as the cut to midwifery. But it would also be really, really stupid.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 16, 2021, 11:05:30 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 15, 2021, 08:50:32 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 15, 2021, 06:30:40 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 14, 2021, 08:51:05 PM
In the meantime, the U.S. pledges $125M in military aid to the Ukraine.

Yep. 

We want all combat to occur off US soil because sending money, materiel, and even troops is much better all around for us than dealing with domestic combat.  Failure to recognize that reality is why many academics should not be allowed to make national/state resource allocation decisions because they are lacking vital perspective.

Gosh, Polly.  I've never heard that one before.

Guess it is the Domino Effect all over again, huh?  That paranoia reeeeeeeaaaally worked out well for America and the world.

My job is such that I spend hours every week with the diplomatic and political aspects of global security and national defense in addition to my technical work.

I assure you that unless one works in those areas as one's esearch areas that I am more informed than someone who reads the newspaper and makes comments based solely on that reading.

There are areas of foreign aid, defense, and global security that can use revision for funding allocations based on current research.  It is unlikely that someone who isn't reading the relevant government committee reports (even just the unclassified ones), the relevant white papers produced by academics, and the relevant reports from State and DoD knows enough to have a productive discussion.

Yeah, I'm an engineer by training, but lifelong learning in relevant academic fields has to go well beyond the gen ed courses taken once as a youth in college.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 16, 2021, 11:37:12 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 16, 2021, 07:26:55 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 14, 2021, 04:25:16 PM

Midwifery may be in demand, but I bet it's expensive to run.  At one point, Super Dinky was losing hundreds of dollars for every nursing credit delivered.  The break even point was something like 3 people fewer than the maximum capacity and there was no way to back fill upper-division students who left for personal reasons.


FWIW, it cost Laurentian zero dollars:

QuoteFormer midwifery school director Susan James said it was the only bilingual program of its kind in Ontario, and is funded by a government grant and not Laurentian's budget. She said it didn't cost the university anything and, in fact, it contributed tuition to Laurentian.

James said she's heard the program was closed because enrolment is capped at 30, and it can't grow, but she wonders if there are other reasons. (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/laurentian-university-midwifery-school-cut-reaction-1.5989455)

The enrollment cap comes from the province and can't be changed (it also makes this the largest midwifery program in Canada...). But if the program costs nothing, is always fully enrolled (they get 300 applications per year), is one of just three in the province, has a 100% employment rate after graduation, and brings in revenue (even if not a truckload), it's hard for me to see why you'd cut it, except because someone has an axe to grind. (I also imagine it piggybacked on the med school's infrastructure.)

Possibilities that come to mind:

* 30 students paying tuition for a program with practically no electives is less money for the institution than 100 students in something else.  A full boutique program is much less valuable to the university than bigger programs.

* The director is likely not calculating the full cost of the program.  A grant may pay for faculty and equipment, but it is unlikely to cover all the administrative costs associated with student enrollment.  It's possible that this "zero cost to the university" program is more of a one-off that breaks even most years instead of being a cash cow.  Being affiliated with the medical college may make administrative costs worse.

* Frequently, government grants are more trouble than they are really worth, even if the money technically works.  Getting out from under a small program that is strictly run, can't grow, and is therefore not a net attractor to the university as a whole can be a win for the university.

*  Do graduates of the program think of themselves as alumni of the university who will send money back to the university for decades and then leave an estate gift?  Students in small boutique programs seldom consider themselves alumni of the university and therefore aren't nearly as useful to the university as a whole.  Those alumni are also less likely to be in unexpected places to help the larger university with recruitment of future students, job placement outside their expertise, and community relations in the power places.  Midwives are also not known for making a ton of cash, so most of them won't be generous alumni donors even if they think of themselves as university alumni and want to contribute.

The region may benefit from the midwife program, but I don't see any compelling reason for the program to be part of any given university.  After all, if the grants cover all costs, then the whole program can just rent space elsewhere and move.  The rental costs would just be redirected from funds currently going to maintenance and utilities.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 16, 2021, 11:53:39 AM
Hmm, thanks for that. I don't have answers, but I'll keep an eye out as more emerges.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Stockmann on April 16, 2021, 12:09:03 PM
Quote from: mamselle on April 13, 2021, 07:47:13 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 13, 2021, 07:18:27 AM
Quote from: spork on April 13, 2021, 05:33:47 AM
The article says 10% of undergraduates will be affected. Laurentian's undergraduate enrollment is 9,000. So eliminated undergrad programs roughly have 900 students in them.

Also note that the 10% figure excludes students at the federated universities, which are also impacted by the cuts (not least because that's where most of the French programming comes from, and it's suffering a massive chunk of the cuts).

I can't speak to Canadian bilingual issues, but I have noticed a strong shift between generational attitudes towards language use and learning in France and Belgium between friends of my grandparents/great-aunt's generation there, in the 1970s, and friends of my own age and younger in the 1990s and since.

The older generation was very resistant to using or using English (one person wondered if it was because they resented needing UK/US help in WWII) and the governmental stance (when I knew of it most directly, about 10 years ago) was that, due to high unemployment, unless native-speaker-level English was needed for a job (a friend worked first as a British international commerce lawyer's paralegal, and later as an EA at OECD in Paris, for example) those who were not of French origin were not given priority for openings.

The older generation only wanted to speak French when we visited, which was fine with me, since I wanted all the practice I could get.

Meanwhile more recently, students have recognized that the jobs they want will all require English fluency and they all want to practice their English--a couple of friends do the "You speak French-I'll speak English--and we'll correct each other" thing...others just make a point of emailing or writing in English and expecting me to reply likewise.

So, the language issues in Canada might be similar--where there are societal trends, economic causes may not be far behind...

M.

Plus, I'd expect French to continue to decline in global economic importance, both in absolute terms and relative to English, so these students aren't making choices only based on the status quo, but also on the basis of future expectations.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 16, 2021, 12:33:45 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on April 16, 2021, 12:09:03 PM
Quote from: mamselle on April 13, 2021, 07:47:13 AM

Meanwhile more recently, students have recognized that the jobs they want will all require English fluency and they all want to practice their English--a couple of friends do the "You speak French-I'll speak English--and we'll correct each other" thing...others just make a point of emailing or writing in English and expecting me to reply likewise.

So, the language issues in Canada might be similar--where there are societal trends, economic causes may not be far behind...

M.

Plus, I'd expect French to continue to decline in global economic importance, both in absolute terms and relative to English, so these students aren't making choices only based on the status quo, but also on the basis of future expectations.

The important thing to understand about French in Canada is that francophones are only a majority in Quebec. There are francophone minorities in New Brunswick, Ontario, and Manitoba, and a few elsewhere. The result is that outside of Quebec, most francophones will be fairly bilingual, of necessity,  so studying in English won't be a big problem for most. Also, except in Quebec, anyone who wants to work in an urban area will need to work in English.

So the "captive market" for French PSE outside of Quebec is pretty small.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Golazo on April 17, 2021, 09:38:16 AM
On the midwifery program, unless there are a lot of hidden costs that actually make the program a true money loser, I'm not sure that the rest of Polly's logic  follows. If all of a university's programs have the problems of a small boutique program, then I think the problems mentioned are real. But at break-even, a small program with a strong regional reputation does a lot for the university in attracting students and student interest and other community positives that can lead to real assets.

Our nursing doctorate is never going to make much money (size caps, expensive), but it adds to our regional reputation, and makes our UG nursing degree more attractive. But what really makes us money is the pre-nursing students who become psychology or social work or envrio studies or political science majors after deciding nursing is not for the (or if some of prerequisites classes make that call for them).

Should we start a new thread in the general forum on foreign policy? I do work in this area and don't really agree with either of the perspectives here.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 17, 2021, 07:27:18 PM
Quote from: Golazo on April 17, 2021, 09:38:16 AM

Should we start a new thread in the general forum on foreign policy? I do work in this area and don't really agree with either of the perspectives here.

Go for it!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 18, 2021, 07:24:47 AM
Quote from: Golazo on April 17, 2021, 09:38:16 AM
Our nursing doctorate is never going to make much money (size caps, expensive), but it adds to our regional reputation, and makes our UG nursing degree more attractive. But what really makes us money is the pre-nursing students who become psychology or social work or envrio studies or political science majors after deciding nursing is not for the (or if some of prerequisites classes make that call for them).

There's no comparable premidwife program that will feed into other majors. The midwife program was already only admitting 10% of applicants.  I doubt there's any rollover benefit to the university for increasing interest in an already full program.  While it's possible that some aspiring midwives change majors during the preclinical program that includes social science, that's only a handful of people since the cohort starts at only 30. 

Super Dinky admitted dozens of prenursing students every year along with the 25 direct BSN admits.  In twenty years of tracking, zero prenursing students ever were admitted to the BSN program, but many graduated from SD with bachelor degrees.

Quote
He shared the story of midwifery student Alison Kroes, who "moved more than 10 times for placements, completed unpaid placements and acquired significant student debt, and faced extended separation from [her] support systems." West said she now has "no clear path to graduation or registration to the profession."

Ref: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/laurentian-university-midwifery-school-cut-reaction-1.5989455

Laurentian has already redirected the midwife program site.  However, Ryerson also in Ontario has a midwife program with an active site: https://www.ryerson.ca/midwifery/program/

Quote

During the Clinical Program, you will spend six terms in full-time clinical placements:

Four terms are spent in Midwifery Placements

Two terms are spent in Interprofessional Placements

The Clinical Program:

Requires a full-time commitment; part-time study is not available

Involves significant on-call expectations (typically 24 hours a day)

Requires the use of a car to attend births in hospitals, clients' homes and other out-of-hospital settings

Can be completed in 2.5 years

It is not possible to maintain employment while enrolled in clinical courses. While the majority of students are placed in the geographic region of their choice, there is a possibility that you may need to relocate for some placements.

While trying to find out exactly what's involved in becoming a midwife in Canada, I keep encountering a lot of angst about rural Ontario's indigenous people receiving adequate medical care.  Midwives are not uniformly distributed in Canada.  Ontario alone has about half of all the midwives in Canada, but that's still only 15% of births in Ontario: https://canadianmidwives.org/midwifery-across-canada/

The angst about Ontario rural poor should be shared for other regions, but they don't have midwives.

If the current thousand midwives and those in training aren't sufficient, then why cap at only 30?  That seems like a lack of placements, much like the caps on nursing in the US.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 18, 2021, 07:29:15 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 17, 2021, 07:27:18 PM
Quote from: Golazo on April 17, 2021, 09:38:16 AM

Should we start a new thread in the general forum on foreign policy? I do work in this area and don't really agree with either of the perspectives here.

Go for it!

If you like.  However, the energy discussion didn't go well, the science education discussion didn't go well, and little of higher ed as a system discussions go well because the peanut gallery here thinks their opinion is just as good as an expert.

I'd be interested in seeing what you write and how it compares to other experts I know.  I'm much less interested in participating in the discussion due to my day job and knowledge I'm not allowed to share.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 18, 2021, 07:29:39 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 18, 2021, 07:29:15 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 17, 2021, 07:27:18 PM
Quote from: Golazo on April 17, 2021, 09:38:16 AM

Should we start a new thread in the general forum on foreign policy? I do work in this area and don't really agree with either of the perspectives here.

Go for it!

If you like.  However, the energy discussion didn't go well, the science education discussion didn't go well, and little of higher ed as a system discussions go well because the peanut gallery here thinks their opinion is just as good as an expert.

I'd be interested in seeing what you write and how it compares to other experts I know.  I'm much less interested in participating in the discussion due to my day job and knowledge I'm not allowed to share.

Oh for pete's sake, Polly.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on April 18, 2021, 08:02:54 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 18, 2021, 07:29:39 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 18, 2021, 07:29:15 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 17, 2021, 07:27:18 PM
Quote from: Golazo on April 17, 2021, 09:38:16 AM

Should we start a new thread in the general forum on foreign policy? I do work in this area and don't really agree with either of the perspectives here.

Go for it!

If you like.  However, the energy discussion didn't go well, the science education discussion didn't go well, and little of higher ed as a system discussions go well because the peanut gallery here thinks their opinion is just as good as an expert.

I'd be interested in seeing what you write and how it compares to other experts I know.  I'm much less interested in participating in the discussion due to my day job and knowledge I'm not allowed to share.

Oh for pete's sake, Polly.
.

Have you checked in that discussion?  How's it going?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 21, 2021, 05:11:35 AM
The leaders of Wheelock College, which was submsumed by Boston University a couple years ago, have a new book out.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/04/21/authors-discuss-their-new-book-when-colleges-close

A couple of takeaways:

1. If your institution's projections look bad, find a partner while your educational operation still has financial value.

2. If you are a small LAC, it may feel comfortable to merge with another small LAC. However, they are in the same boat and don't offer a positive prognosis. Merge with an institution that has good prospects because they have a different student base and mission.

The authors include a "lessons for leadership" at the end of each chapter, which some forumites will find ironic.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 21, 2021, 06:26:24 AM
They definitely deserve credit for recognizing that their long-term future did not look good and being proactive about it.

Wonder how the Wheelock faculty who found themselves placed in other departments at Boston University have been faring?  They (and their new colleagues) have no doubt had some adjustments to make in the new situation.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 21, 2021, 10:01:19 AM
LaGrange College:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/04/21/lagrange-college-cut-several-programs-employees (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/04/21/lagrange-college-cut-several-programs-employees).

IRS Form 990s show deficits about every other year since the 2008 recession, with contributions accounting for up to a third of total revenue. Program service revenue is regularly only about 75% of expenses. This college is a financial zombie.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 21, 2021, 10:29:59 AM
Quote from: spork on April 21, 2021, 10:01:19 AM
LaGrange College:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/04/21/lagrange-college-cut-several-programs-employees (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/04/21/lagrange-college-cut-several-programs-employees).

IRS Form 990s show deficits about every other year since the 2008 recession, with contributions accounting for up to a third of total revenue. Program service revenue is regularly only about 75% of expenses. This college is a financial zombie.

They seem to have a long pedigree and quite a good reputation.  But they're rather small--under a thousand students.  That hurts in a world that is not friendly to small institutions of higher ed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 22, 2021, 12:12:54 PM
CHE has a long piece on PASSHE  (https://www.chronicle.com/article/a-system-leader-sells-his-vision-for-remaking-public-higher-ed)and its chancellor of three years. There are some signs of optimism.

Chancellor Greenberg has peen very open about the alternatives. One is consolidation of some individually unsustainable campuses, another is dissolving the system and letting the colleges operate independently, the third is closing one or several campuses.

As mentioned here many times, the PA legislature is completely hopeless for leading a positive change or endorsing one from the governor. They only care about keeping the local campus open without offending Penn State U. (Penn State has been busy opening campuses statewide that cannibalize PASSHE students, which contributes to the problem. Was Spanier responsible for that too?)  Thus the obvious answer of adding enough money to cover the cost of operations is not a major factor.

The third alternative looks logical from the outside, but it turns out that "closing one medium-size Passhe campus would cost at least $250 million, in part due to absorbing the campus's debt, and is 'the quickest way to exhaust our reserves.'"

The second would result in many campuses failing and a few succeeding. That is the most market-driven model. The accumulated debt would presumably vanish through bankruptcy.

They actually have faculty working on the first option, with the idea that they can build whatever they think will work. That beats the traditional approach of cobbling together the remnants and calling it a program.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: seibaatgung on April 29, 2021, 03:36:13 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on January 29, 2021, 07:53:57 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 20, 2021, 06:47:30 AM
So, if people perceive value in studying something, there are lots of ways they can do it that are not economically difficult for the institution. (Since the enrollment for my elective courses is high enough, they pay for themselves, so they're not in danger of being cancelled.)

Those classes don't pay for themselves if they are not bringing additional enrollment to the institution.  The huge gen ed courses mentioned upthread are irrelevant to the enrollment side of revenue calculations.

Students choose colleges based on various factors including major, location, amenities, mission, and money out of pocket.  A student may choose a S(mall)LAC for class size or a S(elective)LAC for the true liberal arts experience of 1/3 major, 1/3 gen ed, and 1/3 free electives.  However, within rounding of no one enrolls in a given place as a full-time, degree-seeking student for one or two specific courses taught by contingent faculty. 

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/01/19/petition-calls-stanford-reverse-cuts-cantonese-language-program comes immediately to mind as an example of the thinking that ignores the reality of enrollment.  31 people per term taking a low-credit conversational elective is not driving enrollment in the Stanford East Asian studies department.  The assertion that students were picking Stanford in part because of Cantonese courses only matters if Stanford is short on other highly qualified applicants and there's somewhere else offering plenty of relevant seats (unlikely with under 300 people total taking Cantonese courses in the US each year).

A given institution may be losing out on students by having too few interesting electives and no popular majors to regional comprehensive with a bigger variety of majors, courses, and amenities, but the big draw for full-time, degree-seeking enrollees isn't any one gen ed course, even if the university has Stephen King teaching a writing course or Yo-Yo Ma teaching music appreciation.
A big reason enrollment isn't higher in Stanford's Cantonese program is that it wasn't approved to fulfill the University's language requirement. 
Stanford could slash a host of programs and still be seen as better than the next best cluster of schools like Dartmouth, Notre Dame.  Why hasn't it?  Most academic programs are not about driving enrollment, but educating students. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 04, 2021, 03:19:27 AM
329 employees of Becker College, which is closing, will be unemployed by the end of June:

https://www.telegram.com/story/news/2021/05/01/becker-college-worcester-leicester-layoffs-massachusetts-warn-closing-june-employees/4905553001/ (https://www.telegram.com/story/news/2021/05/01/becker-college-worcester-leicester-layoffs-massachusetts-warn-closing-june-employees/4905553001/) .
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 04, 2021, 07:12:01 AM
Quote from: spork on May 04, 2021, 03:19:27 AM
329 employees of Becker College, which is closing, will be unemployed by the end of June:

https://www.telegram.com/story/news/2021/05/01/becker-college-worcester-leicester-layoffs-massachusetts-warn-closing-june-employees/4905553001/ (https://www.telegram.com/story/news/2021/05/01/becker-college-worcester-leicester-layoffs-massachusetts-warn-closing-june-employees/4905553001/) .

Okay, that's the small college formed in the 1970s by the merger of two tiny older institutions (One dating back to the 1780s).  They seem to have had a long history of changing their mission to adapt to changing times, including the creation of a video game design institute about ten years ago.  You can't accuse them of a hidebound failure to try to adapt.  In this case it still wasn't enough.  Especially when you're trying to compete for students in a very crowded regional field.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on May 04, 2021, 11:05:02 AM
Quote from: apl68 on May 04, 2021, 07:12:01 AM
Quote from: spork on May 04, 2021, 03:19:27 AM
329 employees of Becker College, which is closing, will be unemployed by the end of June:

https://www.telegram.com/story/news/2021/05/01/becker-college-worcester-leicester-layoffs-massachusetts-warn-closing-june-employees/4905553001/ (https://www.telegram.com/story/news/2021/05/01/becker-college-worcester-leicester-layoffs-massachusetts-warn-closing-june-employees/4905553001/) .

Okay, that's the small college formed in the 1970s by the merger of two tiny older institutions (One dating back to the 1780s).  They seem to have had a long history of changing their mission to adapt to changing times, including the creation of a video game design institute about ten years ago.  You can't accuse them of a hidebound failure to try to adapt.  In this case it still wasn't enough.  Especially when you're trying to compete for students in a very crowded regional field.

Does anyone know if, after assets are liquidated, Becker has to pay back the $3 million paycheck protection loan that they took out during the pandemic?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on May 04, 2021, 04:44:45 PM
Quote from: lightning on May 04, 2021, 11:05:02 AM
Quote from: apl68 on May 04, 2021, 07:12:01 AM
Quote from: spork on May 04, 2021, 03:19:27 AM
329 employees of Becker College, which is closing, will be unemployed by the end of June:

https://www.telegram.com/story/news/2021/05/01/becker-college-worcester-leicester-layoffs-massachusetts-warn-closing-june-employees/4905553001/ (https://www.telegram.com/story/news/2021/05/01/becker-college-worcester-leicester-layoffs-massachusetts-warn-closing-june-employees/4905553001/) .

Okay, that's the small college formed in the 1970s by the merger of two tiny older institutions (One dating back to the 1780s).  They seem to have had a long history of changing their mission to adapt to changing times, including the creation of a video game design institute about ten years ago.  You can't accuse them of a hidebound failure to try to adapt.  In this case it still wasn't enough.  Especially when you're trying to compete for students in a very crowded regional field.

Does anyone know if, after assets are liquidated, Becker has to pay back the $3 million paycheck protection loan that they took out during the pandemic?

It probably qualifies for forgiveness. See  https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/covid-19-relief-options/paycheck-protection-program/ppp-loan-forgiveness (https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/covid-19-relief-options/paycheck-protection-program/ppp-loan-forgiveness)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ProfessorPlum on May 06, 2021, 06:12:11 PM
Judson College in Alabama is closing. WBRC: Judson College board of trustees vote to close school.
https://www.wbrc.com/2021/05/06/report-judson-college-board-trustees-vote-close-school/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 07, 2021, 05:27:17 AM
Quote from: ProfessorPlum on May 06, 2021, 06:12:11 PM
Judson College in Alabama is closing. WBRC: Judson College board of trustees vote to close school.
https://www.wbrc.com/2021/05/06/report-judson-college-board-trustees-vote-close-school/

Anyone working at a college with fewer than 500 students should be looking for employment elsewhere. A college that size is just not sustainable anymore.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on May 08, 2021, 02:17:31 PM
Even 1000 is getting difficult.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on May 08, 2021, 04:59:50 PM
In your dreams!

5000 is minimum economical scale, according to empirical work I would do if I had to.

That's not a joke. :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on May 08, 2021, 05:04:35 PM
Are you sure? That sounds a little high to me, but maybe I'm just magically thinking.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mleok on May 08, 2021, 05:20:31 PM
Quote from: dismalist on May 08, 2021, 04:59:50 PM
In your dreams!

5000 is minimum economical scale, according to empirical work I would do if I had to.

That's not a joke. :-)

Caltech is a counterexample.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on May 08, 2021, 05:24:10 PM
Quote from: mleok on May 08, 2021, 05:20:31 PM
Quote from: dismalist on May 08, 2021, 04:59:50 PM
In your dreams!

5000 is minimum economical scale, according to empirical work I would do if I had to.

That's not a joke. :-)

Caltech is a counterexample.

Caltech is a counterexample to everything. :-)

MIT has just under 5000, e.g.

The point is not to get a Caltech, or even an MIT, but to get a viable undergraduate institution which is not totally bad.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on May 08, 2021, 08:02:22 PM
Yet, I don't see reports of 3000 undergrad schools going under or even under extreme pressure, though maybe some are. Anyone have anything specific?

By the way, of course money changes everything. 3000 students and a billion dollar endowment probably keeps you safe. But 3000 and 500 million endowment is nice, but not safe enough.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on May 08, 2021, 08:04:26 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on May 08, 2021, 08:02:22 PM
Yet, I don't see reports of 3000 undergrad schools going under or even under extreme pressure, though maybe some are. Anyone have anything specific?

By the way, of course money changes everything. 3000 students and a billion dollar endowment probably keeps you safe. But 3000 and 500 million endowment is nice, but not safe enough.

Keep the flows and the stocks separate!

Everything is fine until the trustees have eaten up the endowment. :-) :-(
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 08, 2021, 10:02:28 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on May 08, 2021, 08:02:22 PM
Yet, I don't see reports of 3000 undergrad schools going under or even under extreme pressure, though maybe some are. Anyone have anything specific?

By the way, of course money changes everything. 3000 students and a billion dollar endowment probably keeps you safe. But 3000 and 500 million endowment is nice, but not safe enough.

Laurentian had ~9000. But their case is sort of exceptional.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 09, 2021, 06:54:45 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 08, 2021, 10:02:28 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on May 08, 2021, 08:02:22 PM
Yet, I don't see reports of 3000 undergrad schools going under or even under extreme pressure, though maybe some are. Anyone have anything specific?

By the way, of course money changes everything. 3000 students and a billion dollar endowment probably keeps you safe. But 3000 and 500 million endowment is nice, but not safe enough.

Laurentian had ~9000. But their case is sort of exceptional.

And more typical in size for Canada. The small (i.e. under 1000 student) places wouldn't really be on the radar here for talking about PSE; they'd be very niche-y, such as religious institutions or private vocational training colleges.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 09, 2021, 07:00:11 AM
Quote from: dismalist on May 08, 2021, 05:24:10 PM
Quote from: mleok on May 08, 2021, 05:20:31 PM

Caltech is a counterexample.

Caltech is a counterexample to everything. :-)

Caltech's annual research budget is $380,000 per undergraduate (not including JPL). Does anyone else come close?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on May 09, 2021, 07:01:38 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on May 08, 2021, 08:02:22 PM
Yet, I don't see reports of 3000 undergrad schools going under or even under extreme pressure, though maybe some are. Anyone have anything specific?
PASSHE?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on May 09, 2021, 11:27:02 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on May 08, 2021, 08:02:22 PM
Yet, I don't see reports of 3000 undergrad schools going under or even under extreme pressure, though maybe some are. Anyone have anything specific?

By the way, of course money changes everything. 3000 students and a billion dollar endowment probably keeps you safe. But 3000 and 500 million endowment is nice, but not safe enough.

My super unscientific intuition is the same. I would say that 2000 students seems to be a tipping point for small LACs. It is hard not to be in the danger zone if you have anything close to 1000 students, regardless of your endowment. And anything between 1000-2000 is still "white knuckle territory."   We've been in white knuckle territory since 2009 when arrived, and let me tell you, it is getting exhausting.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on May 09, 2021, 11:52:27 AM
Quote from: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on May 09, 2021, 07:01:38 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on May 08, 2021, 08:02:22 PM
Yet, I don't see reports of 3000 undergrad schools going under or even under extreme pressure, though maybe some are. Anyone have anything specific?
PASSHE?

Yeah. Two schools with close to 5000 undergrads will not remain stand alone. One with over 3000 will also be consolidated.

https://www.passhe.edu/SystemData/Documents/Enrollment%20Trends%20Fall%202019%20-%20PRELIMINARY.pdf (https://www.passhe.edu/SystemData/Documents/Enrollment%20Trends%20Fall%202019%20-%20PRELIMINARY.pdf)

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/04/27/pennsylvania-higher-ed-system-releases-consolidation-plans (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/04/27/pennsylvania-higher-ed-system-releases-consolidation-plans)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on May 09, 2021, 12:06:52 PM
I guess a lot of this depends on funding sources, but yeah, I guess now that under 5000, especially if endowments gifts and grants aren't important, can be trouble, and then any step of about 1000 lower than that probably means even more trouble, and basically death spiral without major funding sources besides tuition/fees.  But it does seems that most of the current pressure is on 1000 and lower, at least in terms of closing. It would be interesting if anyone has made some robust predictions based on enrollment, endowment, etc. Anyway, even without that, we can see what the trend is. Bigger is "better" in that it means survival as a school, but also probably have to sustain that size with huge budget cuts.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 10, 2021, 08:24:13 AM
Quote from: ProfessorPlum on May 06, 2021, 06:12:11 PM
Judson College in Alabama is closing. WBRC: Judson College board of trustees vote to close school.
https://www.wbrc.com/2021/05/06/report-judson-college-board-trustees-vote-close-school/

That is a tiny, tiny school, and it fits an unusual and fading niche in being a women's college.  Remarkable that it has kept going as long as it has, really.  I wish the world still had a place for a diversity of such distinctive schools.

What a sad day for students, faculty, and alumnae.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 12, 2021, 03:02:41 AM
Iona will buy Concordia New York's campus: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/05/12/iona-finalizes-purchase-concordia-campus (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/05/12/iona-finalizes-purchase-concordia-campus).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on May 12, 2021, 09:21:25 AM
Not too surprising. To my recollection from having once lived near there, Concordia is about 5-ish miles from Iona, in a somewhat swankier part of the New Rochelle/Eastchester/Scarsdale region. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 12, 2021, 10:23:48 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on May 12, 2021, 09:21:25 AM
Not too surprising. To my recollection from having once lived near there, Concordia is about 5-ish miles from Iona, in a somewhat swankier part of the New Rochelle/Eastchester/Scarsdale region.

A merger might have made sense.  I suppose confessional differences kept that off the table.  Wonder whether Iona will keep many of Concordia's staff members employed on the campus they're acquiring?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 12, 2021, 08:20:10 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 12, 2021, 10:23:48 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on May 12, 2021, 09:21:25 AM
Not too surprising. To my recollection from having once lived near there, Concordia is about 5-ish miles from Iona, in a somewhat swankier part of the New Rochelle/Eastchester/Scarsdale region.

A merger might have made sense.  I suppose confessional differences kept that off the table.  Wonder whether Iona will keep many of Concordia's staff members employed on the campus they're acquiring?

How many of these Concordia campuses have closed? 

Is the whole consortium crashing? 

Does it have something to do with declining Catholic demographics?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 13, 2021, 01:55:23 AM
Concordia is Lutheran.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on May 13, 2021, 07:19:44 AM
I don't think this has all that much to do with the various other Concordias, although I suppose some others could have pressures.

This mainly comes from southern Westchester County, NY just having too many darn tiny colleges (remember that College of New Rochelle, also just a few miles from Concordia and Iona merged with Mercy College, and essentially got absorbed by them).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 13, 2021, 07:36:11 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on May 13, 2021, 07:19:44 AM
I don't think this has all that much to do with the various other Concordias, although I suppose some others could have pressures.

This mainly comes from southern Westchester County, NY just having too many darn tiny colleges (remember that College of New Rochelle, also just a few miles from Concordia and Iona merged with Mercy College, and essentially got absorbed by them).


And, apparently, declining Lutheran demographics.  Like I said, confessional differences--the lack of other Lutheran-tradition schools in the region to merge with--probably kept them from seeking a merger with a neighboring school.  Had they been one of those colleges that dropped its specific denominational identity a long time ago, they might have been more prepared to merge.  Then again, maybe not.  Every situation is different.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on May 13, 2021, 07:59:15 AM
Quote from: apl68 on May 13, 2021, 07:36:11 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on May 13, 2021, 07:19:44 AM
I don't think this has all that much to do with the various other Concordias, although I suppose some others could have pressures.

This mainly comes from southern Westchester County, NY just having too many darn tiny colleges (remember that College of New Rochelle, also just a few miles from Concordia and Iona merged with Mercy College, and essentially got absorbed by them).

Not just Lutheran, but specifically Missouri Synod. They don't play well with anyone ecumenically speaking.


And, apparently, declining Lutheran demographics.  Like I said, confessional differences--the lack of other Lutheran-tradition schools in the region to merge with--probably kept them from seeking a merger with a neighboring school.  Had they been one of those colleges that dropped its specific denominational identity a long time ago, they might have been more prepared to merge.  Then again, maybe not.  Every situation is different.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on June 08, 2021, 11:31:12 AM

University of Redlands is down 1000 students from Fall 2019 to Fall 2021. Endowment is $215 million. Current deficit is $13 million.

https://www.redlandsdailyfacts.com/2021/06/04/enrollment-declines-at-university-of-redlands-prompt-layoffs-reorganization/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 08, 2021, 01:09:53 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on June 08, 2021, 11:31:12 AM

University of Redlands is down 1000 students from Fall 2019 to Fall 2021. Endowment is $215 million. Current deficit is $13 million.

https://www.redlandsdailyfacts.com/2021/06/04/enrollment-declines-at-university-of-redlands-prompt-layoffs-reorganization/

Down something like 20% in two years!  Looks like they were showing signs of growth only a couple of years ago.  COVID really pulled the rug out from under them.  Now they're facing 16 layoffs and 18 other positions are being eliminated.  No mention of any of the layoffs being faculty.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 08, 2021, 01:12:19 PM
Form 990s show U. of Redlands with adequate if not healthy margins in previous years. Was a big chunk of its enrollment coming from international students?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 09, 2021, 07:35:22 AM
Number of full-time faculty at Guilford College drops from 99 to 72 over the last two years. Plan is for a 7% endowment draw rather than the usual 5% for 2021-22, coupled with a lower enrollment:

https://greensboro.com/z-no-digital/article_e9edcc28-c562-11eb-bdbf-a3ab6a037868.html (https://greensboro.com/z-no-digital/article_e9edcc28-c562-11eb-bdbf-a3ab6a037868.html).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 09, 2021, 07:46:30 AM
Quote from: spork on June 09, 2021, 07:35:22 AM
Number of full-time faculty at Guilford College drops from 99 to 72 over the last two years. Plan is for a 7% endowment draw rather than the usual 5% for 2021-22, coupled with a lower enrollment:

https://greensboro.com/z-no-digital/article_e9edcc28-c562-11eb-bdbf-a3ab6a037868.html (https://greensboro.com/z-no-digital/article_e9edcc28-c562-11eb-bdbf-a3ab6a037868.html).

Those numbers are consistent with the path the new president has likely been tasked with. Wind down before the endowment is gone.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on June 09, 2021, 08:06:14 AM
Artem U had a campus town hall last month.  TL/DR version:

We're not actually in the shit, but we can see it from here.

I think the place is strong enough that we are unlikely to go under any time soon.  But changes are a comin'.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 09, 2021, 10:58:47 AM
Quote from: spork on June 09, 2021, 07:35:22 AM
Number of full-time faculty at Guilford College drops from 99 to 72 over the last two years. Plan is for a 7% endowment draw rather than the usual 5% for 2021-22, coupled with a lower enrollment:

https://greensboro.com/z-no-digital/article_e9edcc28-c562-11eb-bdbf-a3ab6a037868.html (https://greensboro.com/z-no-digital/article_e9edcc28-c562-11eb-bdbf-a3ab6a037868.html).

Guilford has been on the "Dire Financial Straits" threads several times in the past few years. 

Over a quarter of their faculty gone in one fell swoop!  That hurts.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on June 09, 2021, 03:07:18 PM
If anything like my school, and I actually know that they are, it's probably mostly attrition and adjuncts.
We're not this bad, but we did have to cut some faculty due to low enrollments. Also, we'd never draw this much from endowment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on June 09, 2021, 04:26:21 PM
Here is some unsolicited reading in between the lines from one paragraph in the article linked above.

Hood said college trustees last month approved a budget for the upcoming 2021-22 academic year with a surplus of about $1.3 million.
Thank you CARES Act and the other federal package!

Guilford also plans a one-time draw-down of 7% of its endowment next year instead of the usual 5%. ("It's prudent given what we need," Hood said.)
Yes, because the only thing addressing our structural deficit right now is the federal funding that will end by fall 2022.  Their endowment is only around 75 million, so there is only so much it can do to absorb annual deficits going forward.

Hood said much of the extra money will go toward student financial aid.
Yes, because we are buying students by increasing our discount rate. It went from ~40% in 2010 to ~63% in 2018.

You can search Guilford's metrics on discount rate and enrollment trends here.  Scroll down and then choose "Single Institution" in the table. It took a few seconds for all the data to load.

https://www.highereddatastories.com/2021/01/private-college-and-university-tuition.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on June 09, 2021, 04:50:05 PM
Very common for so-so SLACs, that is to say, the increasing discount rate in particular. The low endowment for them is a killer for sure.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on June 09, 2021, 05:11:30 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on June 09, 2021, 04:50:05 PM
Very common for so-so SLACs, that is to say, the increasing discount rate in particular. The low endowment for them is a killer for sure.

Agreed. I thought about editing my post to say that my so-so SLAC did the exact same thing to its discount rate. Our endowment is almost 4 times the size of theirs though.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on June 09, 2021, 07:32:16 PM
Mine is similar...much bigger endowment, high giving rate for now, but plagued by lower enrollment
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: DoohickeyTech on June 12, 2021, 08:40:46 AM
https://i.redd.it/v7dbgc44qa471.png (https://i.redd.it/v7dbgc44qa471.png)
Supposedly due to too many of the graduates not being able to pay back their loans.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 16, 2021, 12:37:17 PM
The University of Arkansas has been forbidden by the state legislature from selling over 6,000 acres of land on an old forestry research station to a private buyer for over $16 million.  The planned deal was unpopular with hunters who had been accustomed to having access to the land.  Plus, there's that whole concern about selling public lands to private buyers. 


https://www.kait8.com/2021/06/15/ua-drops-pine-tree-research-station-land-sale/


Not a dire situation, but highlights how institutions of higher education aren't always free to use valuable assets to raise funds.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on June 16, 2021, 12:52:46 PM
In general, rural land isn't worth much, especially if it isn't seen as developable.
My campus has about 1000 acres, but probably only the core campus of 100 or so
acres is worth anything, save for some land that either has a house or a new house can be placed on it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on June 16, 2021, 01:10:18 PM
Quote from: apl68 on June 16, 2021, 12:37:17 PM
The University of Arkansas has been forbidden by the state legislature from selling over 6,000 acres of land on an old forestry research station to a private buyer for over $16 million.  The planned deal was unpopular with hunters who had been accustomed to having access to the land.  Plus, there's that whole concern about selling public lands to private buyers. 


https://www.kait8.com/2021/06/15/ua-drops-pine-tree-research-station-land-sale/


Not a dire situation, but highlights how institutions of higher education aren't always free to use valuable assets to raise funds.

In a lot of cases, land has been donated to institutions for specific purpose, so legally they can's just use it for something else or get rid of it. Our former church had a large bequest fund, but most of the money was earmarked for specific causes so it couldn't be used for anything else.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on June 16, 2021, 01:17:31 PM
Quote from: apl68 on June 16, 2021, 12:37:17 PM
The University of Arkansas has been forbidden by the state legislature from selling over 6,000 acres of land on an old forestry research station to a private buyer for over $16 million.  The planned deal was unpopular with hunters who had been accustomed to having access to the land.  Plus, there's that whole concern about selling public lands to private buyers. 


https://www.kait8.com/2021/06/15/ua-drops-pine-tree-research-station-land-sale/


Not a dire situation, but highlights how institutions of higher education aren't always free to use valuable assets to raise funds.

State contributions to U of Arkansas are almost three times tuition revenue.

He who pays the piper calls the tune!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on June 16, 2021, 01:26:28 PM
Much of our endowment is earmarked, but thankfully for useful programs and scholarships. What you don't want is something that must endow 10 million for a professorship in Etruscan at a tiny liberal arts college (not that we would have a shot at that!), or even in  nanotechnology (something we can't support with the requisite lab space). 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 16, 2021, 03:48:01 PM
Quote from: dismalist on June 16, 2021, 01:17:31 PM
Quote from: apl68 on June 16, 2021, 12:37:17 PM
The University of Arkansas has been forbidden by the state legislature from selling over 6,000 acres of land on an old forestry research station to a private buyer for over $16 million.  The planned deal was unpopular with hunters who had been accustomed to having access to the land.  Plus, there's that whole concern about selling public lands to private buyers. 


https://www.kait8.com/2021/06/15/ua-drops-pine-tree-research-station-land-sale/


Not a dire situation, but highlights how institutions of higher education aren't always free to use valuable assets to raise funds.

State contributions to U of Arkansas are almost three times tuition revenue.

He who pays the piper calls the tune!

Arkansas apparently has a strong commitment to using taxpayer funds for the public good, whether it be higher education or hunting opportunities for well-connected good old boys. The legislators seem to be responding to that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 17, 2021, 07:47:39 AM
Quote from: Hibush on June 16, 2021, 03:48:01 PM
Quote from: dismalist on June 16, 2021, 01:17:31 PM
Quote from: apl68 on June 16, 2021, 12:37:17 PM
The University of Arkansas has been forbidden by the state legislature from selling over 6,000 acres of land on an old forestry research station to a private buyer for over $16 million.  The planned deal was unpopular with hunters who had been accustomed to having access to the land.  Plus, there's that whole concern about selling public lands to private buyers. 


https://www.kait8.com/2021/06/15/ua-drops-pine-tree-research-station-land-sale/


Not a dire situation, but highlights how institutions of higher education aren't always free to use valuable assets to raise funds.

State contributions to U of Arkansas are almost three times tuition revenue.

He who pays the piper calls the tune!

Arkansas apparently has a strong commitment to using taxpayer funds for the public good, whether it be higher education or hunting opportunities for well-connected good old boys. The legislators seem to be responding to that.

Somehow or other we've managed so far in recent years to stay in the broad middle ground between the sorts of high taxes and massive spending seen in some states, and the fad for slashing taxes and state funding far below the level dictated by common sense seen in others.  There's still broad support for public education all over the state.  The infamy of Central High in the 1950s notwithstanding, most Arkansas school districts were quietly integrated long ago.  I grew up in a school where the divide between black and white students was pretty close to even, and live in a town with a similar situation.  The white people didn't flee public schools en masse as happened in much of the Deep South (Little Rock had a lot of white flight to the suburbs, but most towns here aren't big enough to have suburban schools to flee to).

Outdoor recreation of all sorts has always been popular here.  Back in the 1990s voters passed a state constitutional amendment that established a permanent statewide "conservation tax" for upgrading and maintaining state parks.  I've been in richer states that had much poorer state parks.

A big part of it is having state colleges and parks spread all over the state.  All parts of the state reap the benefits, so voters in all regions have a motive to support these measures.  Many communities have locals who advocate for local improvements like new public libraries and new schools (We're hardly a rich or conspicuously well-educated town, yet over the past 20 years we've had bond issues for a new hospital, library, sports complex, fire stations, and high school).  Broad enough local support for improvements can translate into good results at a statewide level.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 18, 2021, 10:57:54 AM
Mills may rise again, as a subsidiary.  IHE reports. (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/06/18/mills-may-become-part-northeastern)

Through our proposed alliance, we will sustain the granting of degrees on the Mills campus under the name Mills College at Northeastern University. We will also establish together the Mills Institute, a hub for research and advocacy that will advance women's leadership, equity, inclusion, and social justice."

The press release  (https://news.northeastern.edu/2021/06/17/northeastern-university-and-mills-college-to-pursue-historic-partnership/)doesn't make clear why this is a good move for Northeastern. Does anyone have insight?

They did not explicitly say that Mills would resume admitting new students, a factor that is rather important to future vitality.

It might be attractive to offer students in Evanston the opportunity to do winter quarter at the Mills Institute. Especially if you can live in the dorms and not pay Bay Area rent.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on June 18, 2021, 11:27:25 AM
Quote from: Hibush on June 18, 2021, 10:57:54 AM
Mills may rise again, as a subsidiary.  IHE reports. (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/06/18/mills-may-become-part-northeastern)

Through our proposed alliance, we will sustain the granting of degrees on the Mills campus under the name Mills College at Northeastern University. We will also establish together the Mills Institute, a hub for research and advocacy that will advance women's leadership, equity, inclusion, and social justice."

The press release  (https://news.northeastern.edu/2021/06/17/northeastern-university-and-mills-college-to-pursue-historic-partnership/)doesn't make clear why this is a good move for Northeastern. Does anyone have insight?

They did not explicitly say that Mills would resume admitting new students, a factor that is rather important to future vitality.

It might be attractive to offer students in Evanston the opportunity to do winter quarter at the Mills Institute. Especially if you can live in the dorms and not pay Bay Area rent.

You are confusing Northeastern with Northwestern. Northeastern is in Boston (well, the original main campus is), not Evanston. Northeastern already has multiple specialist campuses around the country and world, so my guess is they just saw an opportunity to add to their portfolio.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on June 18, 2021, 11:35:12 AM
Yeah, its just a way for them to lightly add to their mission and student base at relatively low cost. On the books, it probably looks expensive as a one time thing, but overall, its likely to get them better yield, etc. for the expense on going after those students in the long run.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on June 20, 2021, 03:54:03 PM
Northeastern also has an extensive, well-touted paid student internship program (at least in business, there may be more).

Part of their interest in having catamaran campuses all over the place is because they can send people to them and get them back with experiences possibly not available in the direct area, or in the same way.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 08, 2021, 08:41:50 AM
Sierra Nevada University will be folded into University of Nevada-Reno. Nine full-time faculty have already lost their jobs:

https://snceagleseye.com/11949/breaking-news/nine-snu-faculty-members-laid-off/ (https://snceagleseye.com/11949/breaking-news/nine-snu-faculty-members-laid-off/).



Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 08, 2021, 09:19:43 AM
Quote from: spork on July 08, 2021, 08:41:50 AM
Sierra Nevada University will be folded into University of Nevada-Reno. Nine full-time faculty have already lost their jobs:

https://snceagleseye.com/11949/breaking-news/nine-snu-faculty-members-laid-off/ (https://snceagleseye.com/11949/breaking-news/nine-snu-faculty-members-laid-off/).

That's a big loss for such a small college.  And two of those who were laid off were long-time faculty members who were evidently very active in the community and in cultural enrichment type activities.  Their community is probably going to feel poorer for it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 08, 2021, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 08, 2021, 09:19:43 AM
Quote from: spork on July 08, 2021, 08:41:50 AM
Sierra Nevada University will be folded into University of Nevada-Reno. Nine full-time faculty have already lost their jobs:

https://snceagleseye.com/11949/breaking-news/nine-snu-faculty-members-laid-off/ (https://snceagleseye.com/11949/breaking-news/nine-snu-faculty-members-laid-off/).

That's a big loss for such a small college.  And two of those who were laid off were long-time faculty members who were evidently very active in the community and in cultural enrichment type activities.  Their community is probably going to feel poorer for it.

There were other faculty positions eliminated, I think in 2017, plus senior administrative turnover. SNU's undergraduate FTE is below 400 and its eight-year graduation rate is less than 50%. I haven't looked at its financials, but I suspect it's been circling the drain for a while.

Since SNU is ~ 45 minutes by car from UNV-Reno and is almost lakefront property, I'm guessing that this was a land for debt swap and in a few years there will be no SNU faculty or curriculum.   
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 08, 2021, 12:52:09 PM
Quote from: spork on July 08, 2021, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 08, 2021, 09:19:43 AM
Quote from: spork on July 08, 2021, 08:41:50 AM
Sierra Nevada University will be folded into University of Nevada-Reno. Nine full-time faculty have already lost their jobs:

https://snceagleseye.com/11949/breaking-news/nine-snu-faculty-members-laid-off/ (https://snceagleseye.com/11949/breaking-news/nine-snu-faculty-members-laid-off/).

That's a big loss for such a small college.  And two of those who were laid off were long-time faculty members who were evidently very active in the community and in cultural enrichment type activities.  Their community is probably going to feel poorer for it.

There were other faculty positions eliminated, I think in 2017, plus senior administrative turnover. SNU's undergraduate FTE is below 400 and its eight-year graduation rate is less than 50%. I haven't looked at its financials, but I suspect it's been circling the drain for a while.

Since SNU is ~ 45 minutes by car from UNV-Reno and is almost lakefront property, I'm guessing that this was a land for debt swap and in a few years there will be no SNU faculty or curriculum.

Was their switch from College to University a cynical Hail Mary to seem viable. It makes no sense for a university to be that size.

Who does the institution serve? The small community of Incline Village isn't it. The description on the town website does not suggest a strong college-bound cohort: "Incline is home to some of Lake Tahoe's most stunning mountain retreats. This eastern North Shore enclave features some of the areas most relaxing beaches and a genteel approach to Lake life."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Diogenes on July 09, 2021, 07:35:06 AM
Quote from: Hibush on July 08, 2021, 12:52:09 PM


Who does the institution serve? The small community of Incline Village isn't it. The description on the town website does not suggest a strong college-bound cohort: "Incline is home to some of Lake Tahoe's most stunning mountain retreats. This eastern North Shore enclave features some of the areas most relaxing beaches and a genteel approach to Lake life."

As an outdoorsy type who went to colleges in outdoorsy places, the students would likely be young people who want to move out west to go to college right next to amazing skiing. It might also cater to the service class that already have roots in Lake Tahoe.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Harlow2 on July 09, 2021, 09:39:33 AM
The Pennsylvania State System of Higher Ed has released the final plan for consolidation of some of its campuses.  I'm not able to find the plan but the two under consideration are outlined in today's Chronicle Of Higher Ed. That article mentions possible  job losses of 1500, of which 809 would be faculty positions. Unclear how that would be achieved if true.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 09, 2021, 09:45:18 AM
Quote from: Harlow2 on July 09, 2021, 09:39:33 AM
The Pennsylvania State System of Higher Ed has released the final plan for consolidation of some of its campuses.  I'm not able to find the plan but the two under consideration are outlined in today's Chronicle Of Higher Ed. That article mentions possible  job losses of 1500, of which 809 would be faculty positions. Unclear how that would be achieved if true.

Well, the idea of consolidation is to save money, most of which goes to people's salaries, so of course there would be a lot of jobs cut.

So well over half the cuts in jobs will be faculty?  I thought the idea of consolidation was to eliminate redundancies on the administrative side of things.

Wonder whether they are just eliminating duplicate programs, or whether some types of programs will be eliminated entirely across the system?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 09, 2021, 11:02:33 AM
Quote from: apl68 on July 09, 2021, 09:45:18 AM
Quote from: Harlow2 on July 09, 2021, 09:39:33 AM
The Pennsylvania State System of Higher Ed has released the final plan for consolidation of some of its campuses.  I'm not able to find the plan but the two under consideration are outlined in today's Chronicle Of Higher Ed. That article mentions possible  job losses of 1500, of which 809 would be faculty positions. Unclear how that would be achieved if true.

Well, the idea of consolidation is to save money, most of which goes to people's salaries, so of course there would be a lot of jobs cut.

So well over half the cuts in jobs will be faculty?  I thought the idea of consolidation was to eliminate redundancies on the administrative side of things.

Wonder whether they are just eliminating duplicate programs, or whether some types of programs will be eliminated entirely across the system?

With 30-40% lower enrolment than what the faculty was scaled for, they have had excess instructional staff as well.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 09, 2021, 01:13:23 PM
Quote from: Hibush on July 09, 2021, 11:02:33 AM
Quote from: apl68 on July 09, 2021, 09:45:18 AM
Quote from: Harlow2 on July 09, 2021, 09:39:33 AM
The Pennsylvania State System of Higher Ed has released the final plan for consolidation of some of its campuses.  I'm not able to find the plan but the two under consideration are outlined in today's Chronicle Of Higher Ed. That article mentions possible  job losses of 1500, of which 809 would be faculty positions. Unclear how that would be achieved if true.

Well, the idea of consolidation is to save money, most of which goes to people's salaries, so of course there would be a lot of jobs cut.

So well over half the cuts in jobs will be faculty?  I thought the idea of consolidation was to eliminate redundancies on the administrative side of things.

Wonder whether they are just eliminating duplicate programs, or whether some types of programs will be eliminated entirely across the system?

With 30-40% lower enrolment than what the faculty was scaled for, they have had excess instructional staff as well.

That makes a lot of sense.  I had forgotten that cumulative declines in enrollment in that system were that steep.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 12, 2021, 02:41:27 AM
Not truly dire because it's public, but Keene State continues to eliminate faculty positions and academic programs:

https://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/keene-state-ending-6-academic-programs-after-final-faculty-cuts/article_b817/ (https://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/keene-state-ending-6-academic-programs-after-final-faculty-cuts/article_b817/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on July 12, 2021, 04:10:05 AM
Link not working, I'll try searching directly.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 12, 2021, 04:38:51 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 12, 2021, 04:10:05 AM
Link not working, I'll try searching directly.

M.

Probably my fault. Try this one:

https://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/keene-state-ending-6-academic-programs-after-final-faculty-cuts/article_b817fbe3-0423-597b-b602-2a3b9a5f6fb1.html (https://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/keene-state-ending-6-academic-programs-after-final-faculty-cuts/article_b817fbe3-0423-597b-b602-2a3b9a5f6fb1.html)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on July 12, 2021, 06:06:43 AM
Two things in particular jumped out at me:


In addition to saving $3 million annually from the latest faculty cuts, Treadwell said Keene State is shedding a substantial sum in "curricular efficiency work" that involves reducing professors' administrative work in favor of teaching and other student engagement.


If I read that right, "curricular efficiency work" means the end of course releases for service tasks -- chairing committees, for example. My place did this during Covid, and I think people were surprised at the number of side deals that had been cut along the way.

After making what she said will be the last of those cuts, Treadwell said college officials are turning to strategic planning for the future, including the joint work with the rest of the state's university system.

It's probably just poorly phrased, but if it isn't, it's telling, putting the cart before the horse. Wouldn't you do the strategic planning before making cuts? Otherwise, you're just panic reacting. And it makes nonsense of many of the arguments for closing programs and increasing staffing of others. If you are hiring (permanent faculty, I'm assuming) for programs only to meet current demand, you aren't doing all of your job.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 12, 2021, 07:42:37 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on July 12, 2021, 06:06:43 AM
Two things in particular jumped out at me:


In addition to saving $3 million annually from the latest faculty cuts, Treadwell said Keene State is shedding a substantial sum in "curricular efficiency work" that involves reducing professors' administrative work in favor of teaching and other student engagement.


If I read that right, "curricular efficiency work" means the end of course releases for service tasks -- chairing committees, for example. My place did this during Covid, and I think people were surprised at the number of side deals that had been cut along the way.

After making what she said will be the last of those cuts, Treadwell said college officials are turning to strategic planning for the future, including the joint work with the rest of the state's university system.

It's probably just poorly phrased, but if it isn't, it's telling, putting the cart before the horse. Wouldn't you do the strategic planning before making cuts? Otherwise, you're just panic reacting. And it makes nonsense of many of the arguments for closing programs and increasing staffing of others. If you are hiring (permanent faculty, I'm assuming) for programs only to meet current demand, you aren't doing all of your job.

Perhaps the panic reaction no is making them realize that strategic planning will be better than continuing to panic.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 14, 2021, 03:07:27 PM
Courtesy of simpeSimon's post about HigherEdDive in another thread, a story about Ohio Wesleyan University:

https://www.highereddive.com/news/inside-iowa-wesleyan-universitys-plan-to-find-better-financial-footing/603261/ (https://www.highereddive.com/news/inside-iowa-wesleyan-universitys-plan-to-find-better-financial-footing/603261/).

The story fails to mention the following:
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on July 14, 2021, 03:35:09 PM
Quote from: spork on July 14, 2021, 03:07:27 PM
Courtesy of simpeSimon's post about HigherEdDive in another thread, a story about Ohio Wesleyan University:

https://www.highereddive.com/news/inside-iowa-wesleyan-universitys-plan-to-find-better-financial-footing/603261/ (https://www.highereddive.com/news/inside-iowa-wesleyan-universitys-plan-to-find-better-financial-footing/603261/).

The story fails to mention the following:

  • Plunkett arrived at Ohio Wesleyan after memorably quitting her job as president of Burlington College prior to its closure. (To be fair, her predecessor Jane Sanders, the wife of Bernie Sanders, bears much of the responsibility for running Burlington College into the ground.)
  • Form 990s show contributions comprising ~ 20% of Ohio Wesleyan's total revenue  in FYs 2018 and 2019, which covered about 1/6 of expenses, after budget deficits in FYs 2016 and 2017. But the FY 2020 990 shows contributions falling by 1/3 and a budget deficit of $9 million on $118 million in expenses. Clearly the school is not generating sufficient revenue from operations.

Actually Iowa Wesleyan. Ohio Wesleyan is fine.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 15, 2021, 02:30:49 AM
Oops, my mistake. Sorry.

I don't know what crack I was smoking. I was looking at Ohio Wesleyan's Form 990s. Iowa Wesleyan's financials are even worse: deficits every year from FY 2013 through 2020. The deficits are 10-20% of total expenses. Contributions are 10-20% of total revenue. Recently, annual investment income (from endowment) has been less than $200K. In FY 2019 it was negative.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 15, 2021, 08:18:11 AM
Quote from: spork on July 15, 2021, 02:30:49 AM
Oops, my mistake. Sorry.

I don't know what crack I was smoking. I was looking at Ohio Wesleyan's Form 990s. Iowa Wesleyan's financials are even worse: deficits every year from FY 2013 through 2020. The deficits are 10-20% of total expenses. Contributions are 10-20% of total revenue. Recently, annual investment income (from endowment) has been less than $200K. In FY 2019 it was negative.

That does sound dire.

The article quotes their President as saying, "We need to stop saying we need to look for better students."  That wasn't a very felicitous thing to say.  It makes them sound desperate.  I also wouldn't feel too good about that if I were a prospective student or parent that Iowa Wesleyan reached out to.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on July 15, 2021, 08:24:49 AM
Quote from: apl68 on July 15, 2021, 08:18:11 AM
Quote from: spork on July 15, 2021, 02:30:49 AM
Oops, my mistake. Sorry.

I don't know what crack I was smoking. I was looking at Ohio Wesleyan's Form 990s. Iowa Wesleyan's financials are even worse: deficits every year from FY 2013 through 2020. The deficits are 10-20% of total expenses. Contributions are 10-20% of total revenue. Recently, annual investment income (from endowment) has been less than $200K. In FY 2019 it was negative.

That does sound dire.

The article quotes their President as saying, "We need to stop saying we need to look for better students."  That wasn't a very felicitous thing to say.  It makes them sound desperate.  I also wouldn't feel too good about that if I were a prospective student or parent that Iowa Wesleyan reached out to.


But it is definitely true. Unless a place has a solid reputation for being elite, there's no way to get better students. (Elite places who get an abundance of applicants can be as selective as they want.) So the institution needs to come to grips with the students they actually can get, although stating it publicly in so many words is not going to do them any favours.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 15, 2021, 08:36:50 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 15, 2021, 08:24:49 AM
Quote from: apl68 on July 15, 2021, 08:18:11 AM
Quote from: spork on July 15, 2021, 02:30:49 AM
Oops, my mistake. Sorry.

I don't know what crack I was smoking. I was looking at Ohio Wesleyan's Form 990s. Iowa Wesleyan's financials are even worse: deficits every year from FY 2013 through 2020. The deficits are 10-20% of total expenses. Contributions are 10-20% of total revenue. Recently, annual investment income (from endowment) has been less than $200K. In FY 2019 it was negative.

That does sound dire.

The article quotes their President as saying, "We need to stop saying we need to look for better students."  That wasn't a very felicitous thing to say.  It makes them sound desperate.  I also wouldn't feel too good about that if I were a prospective student or parent that Iowa Wesleyan reached out to.


But it is definitely true. Unless a place has a solid reputation for being elite, there's no way to get better students. (Elite places who get an abundance of applicants can be as selective as they want.) So the institution needs to come to grips with the students they actually can get, although stating it publicly in so many words is not going to do them any favours.

Hence the attempt by many of these struggling schools to continue selling the experience of "play the sport you played in high school" rather than an education.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on July 15, 2021, 09:21:31 AM
"Ooohhhhh----there's nothin' half-way about the Iowa way to treat you,
If we treat you which we may not do at all.."

Sorry, interthreaduality and all that. Having been in 'Music Man' twice as a kid does that to you.

Back to being dire...

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on July 17, 2021, 03:33:24 PM
The national AAUP is a third party, despite the president's assertions.

https://twitter.com/imulvey/status/1416446708473548801?s=20
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 18, 2021, 08:15:40 AM
Bethune Cookman University:

https://hbcugameday.com/2021/07/17/sources-massive-admin-change-at-bethune-cookman/ (https://hbcugameday.com/2021/07/17/sources-massive-admin-change-at-bethune-cookman/).

Highest salaried employees as of filing of the FY 2020 990:

LYNN THOMPSON (VP INTERCOLLEGIATE ATHLETICS)   $303,978
DR E LABRENT CHRITE (PRESIDENT (BEG. 07/2019))   $269,593
TERRY E SIMS (HEAD COACH)   $218,644

The school has been in deficit every year since 2014. It's got a track record of being a cesspool of fraud and embezzlement.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on July 18, 2021, 08:25:50 PM
Quote
The article quotes their President as saying, "We need to stop saying we need to look for better students."  That wasn't a very felicitous thing to say.  It makes them sound desperate.  I also wouldn't feel too good about that if I were a prospective student or parent that Iowa Wesleyan reached out to.

One possible translation of "we need better students" is "we need to find students who we can retain and graduate, otherwise our net tuition revenue and graduation rates will both continue to plummet" 

Another translation would be better students=full pay students. It is probably a bit of both.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 19, 2021, 07:38:32 AM
Quote from: spork on July 18, 2021, 08:15:40 AM
Bethune Cookman University:

https://hbcugameday.com/2021/07/17/sources-massive-admin-change-at-bethune-cookman/ (https://hbcugameday.com/2021/07/17/sources-massive-admin-change-at-bethune-cookman/).

Highest salaried employees as of filing of the FY 2020 990:

LYNN THOMPSON (VP INTERCOLLEGIATE ATHLETICS)   $303,978
DR E LABRENT CHRITE (PRESIDENT (BEG. 07/2019))   $269,593
TERRY E SIMS (HEAD COACH)   $218,644

The school has been in deficit every year since 2014. It's got a track record of being a cesspool of fraud and embezzlement.

Those salaries are outrageous for a school no larger than that, with no more wealth at its disposal than that. 

I had forgotten about their overpriced dorm fiasco.

This college's recent history has not been fair to the memory of its namesake.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 20, 2021, 04:35:58 AM
Quote from: apl68 on July 19, 2021, 07:38:32 AM
Quote from: spork on July 18, 2021, 08:15:40 AM
Bethune Cookman University:

https://hbcugameday.com/2021/07/17/sources-massive-admin-change-at-bethune-cookman/ (https://hbcugameday.com/2021/07/17/sources-massive-admin-change-at-bethune-cookman/).

Highest salaried employees as of filing of the FY 2020 990:

LYNN THOMPSON (VP INTERCOLLEGIATE ATHLETICS)   $303,978
DR E LABRENT CHRITE (PRESIDENT (BEG. 07/2019))   $269,593
TERRY E SIMS (HEAD COACH)   $218,644

The school has been in deficit every year since 2014. It's got a track record of being a cesspool of fraud and embezzlement.

Those salaries are outrageous for a school no larger than that, with no more wealth at its disposal than that. 

I had forgotten about their overpriced dorm fiasco.

This college's recent history has not been fair to the memory of its namesake.

The NY Times just ran an article "Historically Black Colleges Finally Get the Spotlight (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/18/us/hbcu-colleges-universities.html)" about star hirings and other successes. Bethune-Cookman is mentioned for getting Reggie Theus in one of those star hires. Apparently the writers don't know the situation in the athletic department that created the vacancy.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on July 23, 2021, 06:49:24 PM
Kentucky State's president and two regents resigned in the past few days. Looks like their are some financial shenanigans afoot as the university has reported being in the black a few months ago.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/07/21/kentucky-states-president-resigns-amid-financial-anxiety
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2021, 07:06:53 AM
Allegheny College Cuts 36 Positions---IHE

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/07/29/allegheny-college-cuts-36-positions
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 29, 2021, 07:27:01 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2021, 07:06:53 AM
Allegheny College Cuts 36 Positions---IHE

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/07/29/allegheny-college-cuts-36-positions

Apparently all administrators and staff.  That's a pretty substantial chunk at a school that has well under 2,000 students--and fewer now than it did a couple of years ago.  Unless they were grossly overstaffed to start with, the remaining staff are really going to have to stretch to cover everything.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on July 29, 2021, 11:28:09 AM
Quote from: apl68 on July 29, 2021, 07:27:01 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2021, 07:06:53 AM
Allegheny College Cuts 36 Positions---IHE

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/07/29/allegheny-college-cuts-36-positions

Apparently all administrators and staff.  That's a pretty substantial chunk at a school that has well under 2,000 students--and fewer now than it did a couple of years ago.  Unless they were grossly overstaffed to start with, the remaining staff are really going to have to stretch to cover everything.

A lot of the staff work will now be done by faculty.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 29, 2021, 12:45:49 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 29, 2021, 07:27:01 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2021, 07:06:53 AM
Allegheny College Cuts 36 Positions---IHE

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/07/29/allegheny-college-cuts-36-positions

Apparently all administrators and staff.  That's a pretty substantial chunk at a school that has well under 2,000 students--and fewer now than it did a couple of years ago.  Unless they were grossly overstaffed to start with, the remaining staff are really going to have to stretch to cover everything.

Allegheny has been on a downward slide since the 2008 recession. In FY 2010 it booked almost $17 million in investment income and $9 million in contributions to generate $11 million in net revenue, compared to net revenue less than $1 million for FY 2009. For FY 2011, it had $23 million in net revenue, from $10 million in contributions, $21 million in asset sales, and $8 million in investment income. The year after that, it was $10 million in deficit, booking a loss of $13 million in asset sales. Deficits FYs 2012, 2014, 2016, 2017. It basically broke even in FY 2020, with less than $1 million in net revenue.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on August 02, 2021, 05:22:08 AM
When I was in grad school I did some research for someone who was perhaps the worst grad student I ever encountered. And this person did a lot of quasi-cheating on the dissertation too. Like, if they were writing a dissertation on Virginia Woolf, instead of reading any of Woolf's novels, they would read the review of a book of literary criticism on Woolf and then fake a lot of drivel about Woolf on the basis of the review. The rest of us were astonished when this person scraped by and actually was awarded the PhD. And was promptly snapped up at a high salary by Allegheny College. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on August 02, 2021, 07:35:12 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on August 02, 2021, 05:22:08 AM
When I was in grad school I did some research for someone who was perhaps the worst grad student I ever encountered. And this person did a lot of quasi-cheating on the dissertation too. Like, if they were writing a dissertation on Virginia Woolf, instead of reading any of Woolf's novels, they would read the review of a book of literary criticism on Woolf and then fake a lot of drivel about Woolf on the basis of the review. The rest of us were astonished when this person scraped by and actually was awarded the PhD. And was promptly snapped up at a high salary by Allegheny College.

That is pretty shocking, when you consider the glut of legitimately qualified PhDs out there competing for work.  They could have had their choice of those. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 02, 2021, 08:38:22 AM
Quote from: apl68 on August 02, 2021, 07:35:12 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on August 02, 2021, 05:22:08 AM
When I was in grad school I did some research for someone who was perhaps the worst grad student I ever encountered. And this person did a lot of quasi-cheating on the dissertation too. Like, if they were writing a dissertation on Virginia Woolf, instead of reading any of Woolf's novels, they would read the review of a book of literary criticism on Woolf and then fake a lot of drivel about Woolf on the basis of the review. The rest of us were astonished when this person scraped by and actually was awarded the PhD. And was promptly snapped up at a high salary by Allegheny College.

That is pretty shocking, when you consider the glut of legitimately qualified PhDs out there competing for work.  They could have had their choice of those.

Well, not to defend Allegheny (which I know nothing about) but one would need to be an expert on Woolf, with an encyclopedic knowledge of the criticism, to catch plagiarism from a cover letter and job-talk.  I imagine this incredible A-hat hegemony speaks of probably sounded pretty good on the other end if hu was reciting top-notch scholarship as if it were hu's own.

The bad vibes need to be directed at the grad student who plagiarized. 

I'm just sad for Allegheny and all the other schools sliding toward the tubes.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on August 02, 2021, 09:36:57 PM
The case I mentioned actually involved a difficult, highly desired foreign language (think Arabic), and so it would have been harder for a non-speaker of that language to detect the weakness of the applicant. At a small place like Allegheny, they may not have had any other experts in that language.

That said, a little googling reveals that the scholar in question has moved on to a higher-ranked university and has a distinguished career with a long list of published books. Jeepers. Hard to know what to think! Anyway, good luck to Allegheny.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 03, 2021, 07:35:40 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on August 02, 2021, 09:36:57 PM
The case I mentioned actually involved a difficult, highly desired foreign language (think Arabic), and so it would have been harder for a non-speaker of that language to detect the weakness of the applicant. At a small place like Allegheny, they may not have had any other experts in that language.

That said, a little googling reveals that the scholar in question has moved on to a higher-ranked university and has a distinguished career with a long list of published books. Jeepers. Hard to know what to think! Anyway, good luck to Allegheny.

This person sounds very efficient. Their strategic career planning from the start is really paying off. I would not be surprised if they are also--according to plan--collecting the kind of accolades their present school values and that will position them for their next jump.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on August 05, 2021, 07:13:45 PM
Quote from: spork on July 29, 2021, 12:45:49 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 29, 2021, 07:27:01 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2021, 07:06:53 AM
Allegheny College Cuts 36 Positions---IHE

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/07/29/allegheny-college-cuts-36-positions

Apparently all administrators and staff.  That's a pretty substantial chunk at a school that has well under 2,000 students--and fewer now than it did a couple of years ago.  Unless they were grossly overstaffed to start with, the remaining staff are really going to have to stretch to cover everything.

Allegheny has been on a downward slide since the 2008 recession. In FY 2010 it booked almost $17 million in investment income and $9 million in contributions to generate $11 million in net revenue, compared to net revenue less than $1 million for FY 2009. For FY 2011, it had $23 million in net revenue, from $10 million in contributions, $21 million in asset sales, and $8 million in investment income. The year after that, it was $10 million in deficit, booking a loss of $13 million in asset sales. Deficits FYs 2012, 2014, 2016, 2017. It basically broke even in FY 2020, with less than $1 million in net revenue.

Interviewed for a VAP position there where the salary was low, but they offered a dorm room and meals.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on August 05, 2021, 08:27:08 PM
Quote from: Mobius on August 05, 2021, 07:13:45 PM
Quote from: spork on July 29, 2021, 12:45:49 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 29, 2021, 07:27:01 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2021, 07:06:53 AM
Allegheny College Cuts 36 Positions---IHE

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/07/29/allegheny-college-cuts-36-positions

Apparently all administrators and staff.  That's a pretty substantial chunk at a school that has well under 2,000 students--and fewer now than it did a couple of years ago.  Unless they were grossly overstaffed to start with, the remaining staff are really going to have to stretch to cover everything.

Allegheny has been on a downward slide since the 2008 recession. In FY 2010 it booked almost $17 million in investment income and $9 million in contributions to generate $11 million in net revenue, compared to net revenue less than $1 million for FY 2009. For FY 2011, it had $23 million in net revenue, from $10 million in contributions, $21 million in asset sales, and $8 million in investment income. The year after that, it was $10 million in deficit, booking a loss of $13 million in asset sales. Deficits FYs 2012, 2014, 2016, 2017. It basically broke even in FY 2020, with less than $1 million in net revenue.

Interviewed for a VAP position there where the salary was low, but they offered a dorm room and meals.

Did the dorm room have a private bathroom, at least?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on August 11, 2021, 05:52:00 AM
Vista College, a for-profit in Texas, goes belly up:

https://www.kbtx.com/2021/08/10/vista-college-suspends-in-person-enrollment-furloughs-employees-across-texas/ (https://www.kbtx.com/2021/08/10/vista-college-suspends-in-person-enrollment-furloughs-employees-across-texas/).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Aster on August 11, 2021, 01:44:53 PM
Quote from: spork on August 11, 2021, 05:52:00 AM
Vista College, a for-profit in Texas, goes belly up:

https://www.kbtx.com/2021/08/10/vista-college-suspends-in-person-enrollment-furloughs-employees-across-texas/ (https://www.kbtx.com/2021/08/10/vista-college-suspends-in-person-enrollment-furloughs-employees-across-texas/).

I'm surprised that a for-profit business entity attempted to operate in College Station.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on August 21, 2021, 09:21:06 PM
This Detroit Free Press special investigation article highlights the financial difficulties affecting Albion College, a Michigan-based LAC, as it struggles to navigate declining enrollment, worsening finances, and Covid-related campus closure:
https://www.freep.com/in-depth/news/education/2021/02/11/michigan-liberal-arts-college-tuition-discount/6310395002/  (https://www.freep.com/in-depth/news/education/2021/02/11/michigan-liberal-arts-college-tuition-discount/6310395002/)

It's very sad to read the current conditions at Albion, since  a quarter century ago when I was attending another Midwest-based LAC that is part of the ACM/GLCA colleges association. Regarding Albion, we always heard about its stellar academic reputation and excellence pre-professional training in the sciences and in law. Guess it wasn't immune from the multiple challenges facing other LAC in the region over the past twenty years.

The article also includes this interesting data which compares and contrast the finances of other Michigan-based LAC, particularly centering on the "discount rate" each of them are getting to each new student which agreed to enroll in these institutions. It is obtained after you substract the gross/expected tuition value from cumulative number of new students enrolling minus the "discount" (scholarship, grants, loans, and other FA) given to these students.

What is intriguing is that Albion is not the only reputable LAC in Michigan with high amount of discount rate (more than 50 percent). The 2018 discount rate data from the article is attached below. The takeaway for me is that quite a few of these institutions - many are reputable LAC that used to be listed in rankings created by past LAC gurus like Edward Fiske and Loren Pope - are now in serious trouble absent of major turnaround in their enrollment within the next few years. Am I reading this correctly or is there more to these statistics. Perhaps Spork and other regular forum contributors that are more financially literate would've enlightened us on these data?


College name

2018 Gross Tuition

2018 Tuition Discount

2018 Net Tuition

2018 Discount Rate


Adrian College

$56,950,013

$34,035,492

$22,914,521

59.8%


Albion College

$66,927,532

$46,445,933

$20,481,599

69.4%


Alma College

$52,837,680

$31,700,947

$21,136,733

60.0%


Aquinas College

$44,845,178

$25,432,300

$19,412,878

56.7%


Calvin University

$120,104,000

$53,973,000

$66,131,000

44.9%


Cornerstone University

$39,357,530

$15,227,739

$24,129,791

38.7%


Finlandia University

$7,875,090

$2,330,592

$5,544,498

29.6%


Hope College

$97,112,000

$35,146,000

$61,996,000

36.2%


Kalamazoo College

$66,135,805

$41,061,720

$25,074,085

62.1%


Madonna University

$44,444,302

$9,291,784

$34,301,688

21.0%


Olivet College

$26,953,936

$14,954,797

$12,899,139

55.5%


Rochester University

$17,378,010

$5,725,523

$11,652,487

33.0%


Sienna Heights University

$41,449,482

$19,801,303

$21,648,179

47.8%


Spring Arbor University

$55,223,631

$18,345,016

$36,878,615

33.2%


TOTAL

$737,594,189

$353,472,146

$384,201,213

47.9%


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on August 21, 2021, 10:12:00 PM
Yeah, OK. Let not the average discount blind one to the distribution of tuition charges.

Everybody pays different tuition, for everyone is willing to pay different tuition charges. To get the most cash, 'twould be best for a firm university to charge the most what each individual is willing to pay.

There's a posted price, of course. That's paid by admittees who are not academically gifted, but who are financially gifted. Down the list we go: If the college needs cash, the degree of dumbness matters less for price while the degree of financial health matters more for price. If management is happy with the incoming cash, it can put more weight on quality and less on financial health.

Do not lament discounts. They are at the heart of education finance

This is called price discrimination, and is ubiquitous when competition is not intense. Take your kids and your parents to the movies, and look at the price differences!

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on August 22, 2021, 05:31:45 AM
As a non-american, I find this stuff about "discount rate" truly foreign. (Maybe it's not a specifically US thing, but I don't know.) It seems to me that heavily discounted tuition may make sense if an institution is thereby able to get really top-notch students academically. If not, then it's just desperation.

Which is to say, seeing discount rate and graduation rate together would be useful. If both are high, the place may be alright, but if the discount rate is high and the graduation rate is low, they're probably circling the drain. (Maybe a ratio of DR/GR would be worth looking at? Call it the "desperation index".)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on August 22, 2021, 12:46:48 PM
 
QuoteIt seems to me that heavily discounted tuition may make sense if an institution is thereby able to get really top-notch students academically. If not, then it's just desperation.

Yes and no. The things are called "merit based aid" and "need based aid". The merit aid indeed goes to those with merit. But there is nothing wrong with discounting the price for those unwilling because unable to pay. Discounting allows more to attend college, especially the non-wealthy. That's good for the posters on this board, too.

[Whether more of attending college, wealthy or non-wealthy, is a good thing or not is a different question.]
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on August 22, 2021, 02:00:07 PM
Quote from: dismalist on August 22, 2021, 12:46:48 PM
QuoteIt seems to me that heavily discounted tuition may make sense if an institution is thereby able to get really top-notch students academically. If not, then it's just desperation.

Yes and no. The things are called "merit based aid" and "need based aid". The merit aid indeed goes to those with merit. But there is nothing wrong with discounting the price for those unwilling because unable to pay. Discounting allows more to attend college, especially the non-wealthy. That's good for the posters on this board, too.


I would agree, provided that the poor students are still academically able to succeed. Even reduced tuition, for a poor family, is money down the drain that they can't afford to lose if the student can't finish the degree.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on August 22, 2021, 02:03:08 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on August 22, 2021, 02:00:07 PM
Quote from: dismalist on August 22, 2021, 12:46:48 PM
QuoteIt seems to me that heavily discounted tuition may make sense if an institution is thereby able to get really top-notch students academically. If not, then it's just desperation.

Yes and no. The things are called "merit based aid" and "need based aid". The merit aid indeed goes to those with merit. But there is nothing wrong with discounting the price for those unwilling because unable to pay. Discounting allows more to attend college, especially the non-wealthy. That's good for the posters on this board, too.


I would agree, provided that the poor students are still academically able to succeed. Even reduced tuition, for a poor family, is money down the drain that they can't afford to lose if the student can't finish the degree.

Absolutely.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on August 22, 2021, 05:35:08 PM
Quote from: picard on August 21, 2021, 09:21:06 PM
This Detroit Free Press special investigation article highlights the financial difficulties affecting Albion College, a Michigan-based LAC, as it struggles to navigate declining enrollment, worsening finances, and Covid-related campus closure:
https://www.freep.com/in-depth/news/education/2021/02/11/michigan-liberal-arts-college-tuition-discount/6310395002/  (https://www.freep.com/in-depth/news/education/2021/02/11/michigan-liberal-arts-college-tuition-discount/6310395002/)

[. . .]

The article's subhead is all one needs to know: "A drive to increase enrollment at Albion College was successful in bringing more students to campus. It didn't solve Albion's problems."

Albion College has run a deficit every year since the 2008 recession except for FY 2011. For some of those years the deficit has been as high as 10% of total expenses.

Albion can't compete on price. And it can't compete on reputation. Eventually it will burn through its endowment and become insolvent.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 26, 2021, 01:55:06 PM
A counterpoint!

From a small college in the Northeast, just the kind that seems most endangered:
QuoteWe have financially responsible trustees and a president who have been excellent stewards of our institutional resources, and who are thinking creatively about guiding us successfully through the post-pandemic years

In a CHE article (https://www.chronicle.com/article/they-offered-early-retirement-heres-why-i-took-it-at-51) by an English professor at Assumption University in Worcester, MA regarding their ability to provide an attractive early-retirement package.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on August 29, 2021, 09:13:03 AM
Quote from: Hibush on August 26, 2021, 01:55:06 PM
A counterpoint!

From a small college in the Northeast, just the kind that seems most endangered:
QuoteWe have financially responsible trustees and a president who have been excellent stewards of our institutional resources, and who are thinking creatively about guiding us successfully through the post-pandemic years

In a CHE article (https://www.chronicle.com/article/they-offered-early-retirement-heres-why-i-took-it-at-51) by an English professor at Assumption University in Worcester, MA regarding their ability to provide an attractive early-retirement package.

This is not a positive article.  This article indicates short-sighted individual thinking that will very likely be tragic in a few years.

The institution might be benefiting by having people happily go non-tenure track temporarily who would otherwise be retrenched.  However, this is not a good decision for someone who is only early fifties in a field where getting another comparable job is very unlikely.  This wasn't enough money to truly retire for the next forty years; this was enough money to take a couple year sabbatical, but without a guaranteed job to which to return.

This offer looks a lot like preying on people with poor mathematical critical thinking skills.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 29, 2021, 08:09:22 PM
Polly's back!

I knew it was you when I saw the "poor mathematical and critical thinking skills!"

We've had some buyouts, and some surprising takers given exactly what you opined above (although one took the cash, we think, because hu saw the tenure vote coming next year and could read the writing on the wall).

Good to see you, Polly. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 30, 2021, 01:57:42 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on August 29, 2021, 09:13:03 AM
Quote from: Hibush on August 26, 2021, 01:55:06 PM
A counterpoint!

This offer looks a lot like preying on people with poor mathematical critical thinking skills.

Welcome back Polly, we missed you!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on September 01, 2021, 11:10:12 AM
Quote from: Puget on June 18, 2021, 11:27:25 AM
Quote from: Hibush on June 18, 2021, 10:57:54 AM
Mills may rise again, as a subsidiary.  IHE reports. (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/06/18/mills-may-become-part-northeastern)

Through our proposed alliance, we will sustain the granting of degrees on the Mills campus under the name Mills College at Northeastern University. We will also establish together the Mills Institute, a hub for research and advocacy that will advance women's leadership, equity, inclusion, and social justice."

The press release  (https://news.northeastern.edu/2021/06/17/northeastern-university-and-mills-college-to-pursue-historic-partnership/)doesn't make clear why this is a good move for Northeastern. Does anyone have insight?

They did not explicitly say that Mills would resume admitting new students, a factor that is rather important to future vitality.

It might be attractive to offer students in Evanston the opportunity to do winter quarter at the Mills Institute. Especially if you can live in the dorms and not pay Bay Area rent.

You are confusing Northeastern with Northwestern. Northeastern is in Boston (well, the original main campus is), not Evanston. Northeastern already has multiple specialist campuses around the country and world, so my guess is they just saw an opportunity to add to their portfolio.

More on the NEU acquisition of an outrigger in Portland:

   https://boston.cbslocal.com/2021/08/31/bm-baked-beans-factory-new-institute-affiliated-with-northeastern-university/

(One wonders if they'll be able to get the taste of B&M Baked Beans right after the move, though....)

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 01, 2021, 01:02:20 PM
Quote from: mamselle on September 01, 2021, 11:10:12 AM
More on the NEU acquisition of an outrigger in Portland:

   https://boston.cbslocal.com/2021/08/31/bm-baked-beans-factory-new-institute-affiliated-with-northeastern-university/

(One wonders if they'll be able to get the taste of B&M Baked Beans right after the move, though....)

M.

If they put the Roux Institute in the bean factory, you know they'll cook up something good.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on September 01, 2021, 01:37:03 PM
Quote from: mamselle on September 01, 2021, 11:10:12 AM
Quote from: Puget on June 18, 2021, 11:27:25 AM
Quote from: Hibush on June 18, 2021, 10:57:54 AM
Mills may rise again, as a subsidiary.  IHE reports. (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/06/18/mills-may-become-part-northeastern)

Through our proposed alliance, we will sustain the granting of degrees on the Mills campus under the name Mills College at Northeastern University. We will also establish together the Mills Institute, a hub for research and advocacy that will advance women's leadership, equity, inclusion, and social justice."

The press release  (https://news.northeastern.edu/2021/06/17/northeastern-university-and-mills-college-to-pursue-historic-partnership/)doesn't make clear why this is a good move for Northeastern. Does anyone have insight?

They did not explicitly say that Mills would resume admitting new students, a factor that is rather important to future vitality.

It might be attractive to offer students in Evanston the opportunity to do winter quarter at the Mills Institute. Especially if you can live in the dorms and not pay Bay Area rent.

You are confusing Northeastern with Northwestern. Northeastern is in Boston (well, the original main campus is), not Evanston. Northeastern already has multiple specialist campuses around the country and world, so my guess is they just saw an opportunity to add to their portfolio.

More on the NEU acquisition of an outrigger in Portland:

   https://boston.cbslocal.com/2021/08/31/bm-baked-beans-factory-new-institute-affiliated-with-northeastern-university/

(One wonders if they'll be able to get the taste of B&M Baked Beans right after the move, though....)

M.

Well, Northeastern won the Beanpot in 2020, so it seems like the stars have aligned on this merger.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on September 01, 2021, 01:42:01 PM
Well done, both of you...!

;--}

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 01, 2021, 02:00:49 PM
Quote from: Hibush on September 01, 2021, 01:02:20 PM
Quote from: mamselle on September 01, 2021, 11:10:12 AM
More on the NEU acquisition of an outrigger in Portland:

   https://boston.cbslocal.com/2021/08/31/bm-baked-beans-factory-new-institute-affiliated-with-northeastern-university/

(One wonders if they'll be able to get the taste of B&M Baked Beans right after the move, though....)

M.

If they put the Roux Institute in the bean factory, you know they'll cook up something good.

BTW, it's technically not a bean "factory," it's a bean "plant."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on September 01, 2021, 05:44:31 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 01, 2021, 02:00:49 PM
Quote from: Hibush on September 01, 2021, 01:02:20 PM
Quote from: mamselle on September 01, 2021, 11:10:12 AM
More on the NEU acquisition of an outrigger in Portland:

   https://boston.cbslocal.com/2021/08/31/bm-baked-beans-factory-new-institute-affiliated-with-northeastern-university/

(One wonders if they'll be able to get the taste of B&M Baked Beans right after the move, though....)

M.

If they put the Roux Institute in the bean factory, you know they'll cook up something good.

BTW, it's technically not a bean "factory," it's a bean "plant."

Oh, dear, regional language differences.

The factory where 'Boston' baked beans are made, once in Maine, is now moving to the midwest. So.....oooohhhh, wait, I get it.

Well done #3.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 06, 2021, 04:31:14 AM
Legacy Business School (https://legacyny.org/campus), despite its $70,000 tuition, great Manhattan location,  and gold-plated degrees, is in trouble. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-tower-pac-rent-campaign-finance/2021/09/02/dfeae19e-0b2f-11ec-9781-07796ffb56fe_story.html)

The five-year-old school owes back rent on its small campus in NYC and the school's founder, international education (https://www.businessoffashion.com/articles/news-analysis/is-legacy-business-school-the-shadiest-school-in-fashion-education) executive Alessandro Nomellini, is occupying the campus and forcing current management to sue to get him out. The founder's legal team has left him because they haven't been paid.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on September 06, 2021, 06:39:32 PM
Why would anyone be stupid enough to attend such a 'school', and, perhaps more importantly, what businesses would think a 'degree' therefrom would be worth anything?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 07, 2021, 08:04:14 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 06, 2021, 06:39:32 PM
Why would anyone be stupid enough to attend such a 'school', and, perhaps more importantly, what businesses would think a 'degree' therefrom would be worth anything?

Apparently not as many as they were projecting, but I'm not sure the intelligence or discernment of the prospective students was the limiting factor. Maybe they just had an overoptimistic director of enrollment management.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 08, 2021, 12:35:50 PM
Quote from: Hibush on September 07, 2021, 08:04:14 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 06, 2021, 06:39:32 PM
Why would anyone be stupid enough to attend such a 'school', and, perhaps more importantly, what businesses would think a 'degree' therefrom would be worth anything?

Apparently not as many as they were projecting, but I'm not sure the intelligence or discernment of the prospective students was the limiting factor. Maybe they just had an overoptimistic director of enrollment management.

It's in Trump Tower, interestingly enough.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on September 08, 2021, 01:36:03 PM
Is it, still?

I read that a number of their tenants had left.

(There's an article, somewhere....)

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 17, 2021, 11:34:41 AM
IPEDS released some more data on how many schools are operating. I grabbed some numbers to show the change in the past decade to give an idea of how may schools were in terminally dire straits.

These numbers show the net change, but not many schools have been founded de novo.






      Public   Private
nonprofit
Private
for-profit
Four year   Number in 2021   773   1,608343
   % change11%1%-48%
Two Year   Number in 2021   920   139   564
   % change   -16%   -22%   -45%

Clearly the cleaning up of the for-profit sector caused a lot of bankruptcies. Being sued for fraud by the Federal government does lead to dire financial straits. It appears that Secretary DeVos' efforts did not bring them back.

While two-year schools have declined, there was actually an increase in the traditional (ie public and non-profit) four-year schools.

The large increase in publics is surprising. Would those not be the "directional state" schools we often hear are in trouble. Why would there be more of them? 
One possibility is that more schools are opening in urban areas to meet rising demand, while the rural schools in depopulating areas remain open (but struggling)due to political support.

Private 4-yr non-profits remain the largest in number by far. Public ones likely enroll more students.




Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on September 17, 2021, 11:44:23 AM
I would imagine some (no idea how many) have moved from Public 2 yr to Public 4 yr.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on September 18, 2021, 07:08:30 PM
The entire community college system in Florida converted from 2 year to 4 year starting in 2009. It went from the Community college system to the Florida College system. They have 28 institutions. That likely accounts for much of the public growth.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on September 26, 2021, 06:50:10 AM
Quote from: mamselle on September 01, 2021, 05:44:31 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 01, 2021, 02:00:49 PM
Quote from: Hibush on September 01, 2021, 01:02:20 PM
Quote from: mamselle on September 01, 2021, 11:10:12 AM
More on the NEU acquisition of an outrigger in Portland:

   https://boston.cbslocal.com/2021/08/31/bm-baked-beans-factory-new-institute-affiliated-with-northeastern-university/

(One wonders if they'll be able to get the taste of B&M Baked Beans right after the move, though....)

M.

If they put the Roux Institute in the bean factory, you know they'll cook up something good.

BTW, it's technically not a bean "factory," it's a bean "plant."

Oh, dear, regional language differences.

The factory where 'Boston' baked beans are made, once in Maine, is now moving to the midwest. So.....oooohhhh, wait, I get it.

Well done #3.

M.

More concretely,

   https://www.pressherald.com/2021/09/19/beans-to-an-end-mainers-share-sweet-memories-connected-to-bms-homey-products/

Even the journalists are getting in on the 'beans' puns....


Also, the discussion of the value of a CPA credential came up awhile back, I can't find the exact post, but this just appeared in my news feed, and I recalled the issue: might be pertinent:

   https://www.goingconcern.com/opinion-its-the-aicpas-own-fault-no-one-wants-to-be-a-cpa-anymore/

Where's Octo!!!!????

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 24, 2021, 03:05:28 PM
Oh me oh my...

For the last 8 years I have taught whatever falls to the floor, which has been a wide variety, and I have taught well and with good humor. I have out published most of the TT folks. I have never had a problem other than minor grade challenges, everyone which I resolved without even bothering the chair.

But there's that demographic cliff.

So we have the need to find "immediate savings," and it looks like I may be out of a FT job next semester.  I will not be desperate as my wife has tenure and just won a good sized campus research award, and we have built up a good bit of savings and we have low CoL...

And I am not in love with teaching or this school...

And if I am back to adjuncting I would have a great deal more time to write and pursue other interests...

But what a blow to one's sense of purpose and self-esteem. 

It hasn't happened yet, and I am reasonable person and understand the university's untenable position.  The provost is a bit of a tool but a nice person nevertheless; I am sure hu doesn't want to be in this position.

Is it true that they were giving raises to athletics!?!?!  Can't be!

Just...ah sh*t!  What a bummer. 

I expect Polly to arrive any moment to gloat. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on October 24, 2021, 06:23:37 PM
That's brutal. Not much that I can say. I've been there once, and made it "out" .... to another school, but the demographic cliff is still there. Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: little bongo on October 25, 2021, 09:14:20 AM
I'm sorry, Wahoo. I'm glad you have some things in place to cushion the blow, but it's a big blow, nonetheless. Best of luck with whatever happens.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 25, 2021, 02:09:16 PM
Thank you.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on October 25, 2021, 03:19:23 PM
Chime. No fun.

I hope you find a way to turn it around to your own advantage and are able to wave cheerily to them as you fly by on the opposite side of the downward spiral, going up!

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Harlow2 on October 25, 2021, 04:33:01 PM
So sorry, Wahoo.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 25, 2021, 06:22:36 PM
Thanks all.  I'm not in the trash shoot yet, things just look bad.  Theme's the breaks, I guess.  I still have it luckier than a lot of academics, and for that I am thankful.  Maybe we should start a thread for bad news down the pike.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on October 26, 2021, 04:17:18 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 24, 2021, 03:05:28 PM

It hasn't happened yet, and I am reasonable person and understand the university's untenable position.  The provost is a bit of a tool but a nice person nevertheless; I am sure hu doesn't want to be in this position.


Sure hu does. That's why hu is not in your position. Your magnanimity doesn't change what's going on or how wrong it is. Just helps you cope and so is the wiser approach.

The amazing thing to me in higher ed is how much stupid, unfair s### goes on with no guilty parties.

ETA:
QuoteI expect Polly to arrive any moment to gloat.

Actually you are the type of non-TT academic worker who uses the job as it should be used, by the code Polly promoted. Meaning, you made sure to fall in love with and marry someone who eventually acquired enough financial security that your non-secure academic career has been a manageable situation. You are not someone who has depended on the job enough that you are wrong because you should be someone else.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: clean on October 26, 2021, 02:59:48 PM
QuoteBut what a blow to one's sense of purpose and self-esteem.

Your worth is not limited by this job.  As you indicated, not working here (at least in the short term... they may need you again faster than they realize!), especially as you dont love teaching there, frees up a lot of time to do the things that will make you happier!  This (temporary job reallocation) should not be a challenge to your sense of purpose or self esteem! 
I see a new purpose on the horizon!  Do the things that DO make you happy!  If that is the research you have put off, then you will have the time!  Hell, even if it is gardening and closet organizing, that at least has the benefit of showing the immediate gratification of viewing your accomplishments! 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on October 26, 2021, 03:19:10 PM
Agree.

When life gives you lemons, make Eggs Benedict.

Or lemon meringue pie.

Don't just settle for lemonade.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on October 26, 2021, 08:05:08 PM
Making lemon meringue pie is fine, doing things that make you happy is fine.   But food still needs to be put onto the table, and the landlord still wants his rent check.   Most people in the adjunctified world hardly have the options to make that luscious pie or anything else that would 'make them happy'.   Really, outside of STEM, they really don't, and this lack of opportunity generally only increases as one ages.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: clean on October 26, 2021, 11:09:25 PM

QuoteMaking lemon meringue pie is fine, doing things that make you happy is fine.   But food still needs to be put onto the table, and the landlord still wants his rent check.




Quote
QuoteSo we have the need to find "immediate savings," and it looks like I may be out of a FT job next semester.  I will not be desperate as my wife has tenure and just won a good sized campus research award, and we have built up a good bit of savings and we have low CoL...


So it seems that food and rent are not the problem in this case.  The problem is the link between a job and self worth. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 27, 2021, 04:48:05 AM
Bloomfield College: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/10/20/bloomfield-college-seeks-partner-avoid-shutting-down (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/10/20/bloomfield-college-seeks-partner-avoid-shutting-down).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 27, 2021, 05:53:17 AM
Quote from: spork on October 27, 2021, 04:48:05 AM
Bloomfield College: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/10/20/bloomfield-college-seeks-partner-avoid-shutting-down (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/10/20/bloomfield-college-seeks-partner-avoid-shutting-down).

QuoteNearly three-quarters of Bloomfield students are Pell Grant eligible, and college officials have worked hard to make sure students aren't turned away because of the cost. Tuition for the 2021-22 academic year is $30,680 -- the lowest price of any New Jersey private college.

In other words, their financial model has a lot of students who can't pay much of the tuition and depend on financial aid from the school. However, they have no full-pay students at $50k who provide that financial-aid money. There is no way for that to work.

The school seems to do important--and expensive--education of promising students who have ongoing challenges. It would be good if that education could be matched with an appropriate revenue source.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: picard on October 27, 2021, 09:53:13 PM
Quote from: spork on October 27, 2021, 04:48:05 AM
Bloomfield College: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/10/20/bloomfield-college-seeks-partner-avoid-shutting-down (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/10/20/bloomfield-college-seeks-partner-avoid-shutting-down).

QuoteNearly three-quarters of Bloomfield students are Pell Grant eligible, and college officials have worked hard to make sure students aren't turned away because of the cost. Tuition for the 2021-22 academic year is $30,680 -- the lowest price of any New Jersey private college.

QuoteIn other words, their financial model has a lot of students who can't pay much of the tuition and depend on financial aid from the school. However, they have no full-pay students at $50k who provide that financial-aid money. There is no way for that to work.

The school seems to do important--and expensive--education of promising students who have ongoing challenges. It would be good if that education could be matched with an appropriate revenue source.

Isn't this the same problem facing by so many LAC these days, particularly those located in regions with a combination of demographic and socio-economic changes, as the number of upper-middle class students who are willing and able their $50K+ comprehensive fees have declined, while the type of students enrolled in these schools tend to come first generation and minorities, which tend to come from lower-income families?

Many of these LAC are to be commended for their commitment to take students from these background and give them first-class liberal arts education. However, the trade-off is that as the number of well-off students who are able to pay the full tuition cost to subsidize the low-income ones declined,  these LAC began to incur deficits and within the few years found themselves to be under water.

Of course, some like Albion College (profiled here: https://tinyurl.com/335mjhf2) have sizable endowment that helped them to cushion the blow from the financial losses, at least for now. However, others, like Bloomfield, have an endowment of next to nothing, with a location either in urban ghettos or rural neverland that becomes a turn-off for many prospective students, hence they're caught themselves in a financial quicksand/death spiral that in the end they simply couldn't get themselves out of.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on October 28, 2021, 08:07:49 AM
My college is more or less like Albion. But, it can't last forever. I'm not even sure it can last 5 years. Not without major cuts.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 28, 2021, 02:40:09 PM
Quote from: clean on October 26, 2021, 11:09:25 PM

QuoteMaking lemon meringue pie is fine, doing things that make you happy is fine.   But food still needs to be put onto the table, and the landlord still wants his rent check.




Quote
QuoteSo we have the need to find "immediate savings," and it looks like I may be out of a FT job next semester.  I will not be desperate as my wife has tenure and just won a good sized campus research award, and we have built up a good bit of savings and we have low CoL...


So it seems that food and rent are not the problem in this case.  The problem is the link between a job and self worth.

I figure that is the way it is for most of us.  I will wager very few forumites have gotten wealthy from their academic employment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Cheerful on October 29, 2021, 03:01:07 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 24, 2021, 03:05:28 PM
For the last 8 years I have taught whatever falls to the floor, which has been a wide variety, and I have taught well and with good humor.

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 24, 2021, 03:05:28 PMBut what a blow to one's sense of purpose and self-esteem.

Please remember and be proud that you have made a positive difference in many students' lives over the years.

Wishing you the best, Wahoo Redux.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on October 29, 2021, 04:33:19 PM
+1

Also, this thread

   http://thefora.org/index.php?topic=2640.0;topicseen

might do well with some suggestions from frequent posters to the present thread!

There seem to be some overlapping questions...

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 29, 2021, 06:01:13 PM
Quote from: Cheerful on October 29, 2021, 03:01:07 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 24, 2021, 03:05:28 PM
For the last 8 years I have taught whatever falls to the floor, which has been a wide variety, and I have taught well and with good humor.

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 24, 2021, 03:05:28 PMBut what a blow to one's sense of purpose and self-esteem.

Please remember and be proud that you have made a positive difference in many students' lives over the years.

Wishing you the best, Wahoo Redux.

Thank you.  You are very kind.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 29, 2021, 06:07:18 PM
Quote from: clean on October 26, 2021, 02:59:48 PM
QuoteBut what a blow to one's sense of purpose and self-esteem.

Your worth is not limited by this job.  As you indicated, not working here (at least in the short term... they may need you again faster than they realize!), especially as you dont love teaching there, frees up a lot of time to do the things that will make you happier!  This (temporary job reallocation) should not be a challenge to your sense of purpose or self esteem! 
I see a new purpose on the horizon!  Do the things that DO make you happy!  If that is the research you have put off, then you will have the time!  Hell, even if it is gardening and closet organizing, that at least has the benefit of showing the immediate gratification of viewing your accomplishments!

Actually my amazing, wonderful wife has implored me---actually implored---to take some time and work on some of the writing projects that have been languishing for the last 5 years or so as I juggled the 5/5.  I am one luck sum'gun in that respect (it pays to marry an academic who does not live for material things). 

Or I may decide to become a Heavy Metal star.

Alas, they are denuding the university, even some things that I think are overtly beneficial to the culture (gerontology, several education programs, music, computer science, and several social service programs just to name a few) because of the student-to-faculty and cost ratios.  I don't even think we should call ourselves a "university" with so many cuts.  All hail the ascendancy of business.

Thanks for all the support, folks, I did not mean to hijack the thread.  Y'all are cool!!!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on October 30, 2021, 06:37:50 AM
That's not an OR choice.  Do Both!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 31, 2021, 10:54:00 AM
Quote from: picard on October 27, 2021, 09:53:13 PM

Isn't this the same problem facing by so many LAC these days, particularly those located in regions with a combination of demographic and socio-economic changes, as the number of upper-middle class students who are willing and able their $50K+ comprehensive fees have declined, while the type of students enrolled in these schools tend to come first generation and minorities, which tend to come from lower-income families?

Many of these LAC are to be commended for their commitment to take students from these background and give them first-class liberal arts education. However, the trade-off is that as the number of well-off students who are able to pay the full tuition cost to subsidize the low-income ones declined,  these LAC began to incur deficits and within the few years found themselves to be under water.

Of course, some like Albion College (profiled here: https://tinyurl.com/335mjhf2) have sizable endowment that helped them to cushion the blow from the financial losses, at least for now. However, others, like Bloomfield, have an endowment of next to nothing, with a location either in urban ghettos or rural neverland that becomes a turn-off for many prospective students, hence they're caught themselves in a financial quicksand/death spiral that in the end they simply couldn't get themselves out of.

Exaclty. The problem of having gone under water with no sign of flotation is far more widespread than Bloomfield. It is frightening that they cannot regognize the problem when the financial acumen required to recognize it is no more complicated than high-school household budgeting class. The probelm is not universal, however. It appears to be 10 to 20% of LACs. More for beauty colleges and fine-arts institutes.

My rudimentary understanding of economics leads me to conclude that the demise of the weakest 20% of LACs will improve the finances of the remaining 80% and the industry will be stronger after shedding that capacity. While there will be fewer faculty overall, these schools tend grossly underpay.

The losers are the students who would have gotten an education financed by the depletion of a dying school's endowment. I don't think that was a good model to being with, and that public schools are in a much better position to provide that education, financed explicitly and intentionallly with public funds.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on October 31, 2021, 09:16:01 PM
Quote from: Hibush on October 31, 2021, 10:54:00 AM
Quote from: picard on October 27, 2021, 09:53:13 PM

Isn't this the same problem facing by so many LAC these days, particularly those located in regions with a combination of demographic and socio-economic changes, as the number of upper-middle class students who are willing and able their $50K+ comprehensive fees have declined, while the type of students enrolled in these schools tend to come first generation and minorities, which tend to come from lower-income families?

Many of these LAC are to be commended for their commitment to take students from these background and give them first-class liberal arts education. However, the trade-off is that as the number of well-off students who are able to pay the full tuition cost to subsidize the low-income ones declined,  these LAC began to incur deficits and within the few years found themselves to be under water.

Of course, some like Albion College (profiled here: https://tinyurl.com/335mjhf2) have sizable endowment that helped them to cushion the blow from the financial losses, at least for now. However, others, like Bloomfield, have an endowment of next to nothing, with a location either in urban ghettos or rural neverland that becomes a turn-off for many prospective students, hence they're caught themselves in a financial quicksand/death spiral that in the end they simply couldn't get themselves out of.

Exaclty. The problem of having gone under water with no sign of flotation is far more widespread than Bloomfield. It is frightening that they cannot regognize the problem when the financial acumen required to recognize it is no more complicated than high-school household budgeting class. The probelm is not universal, however. It appears to be 10 to 20% of LACs. More for beauty colleges and fine-arts institutes.

My rudimentary understanding of economics leads me to conclude that the demise of the weakest 20% of LACs will improve the finances of the remaining 80% and the industry will be stronger after shedding that capacity. While there will be fewer faculty overall, these schools tend grossly underpay.

The losers are the students who would have gotten an education financed by the depletion of a dying school's endowment. I don't think that was a good model to being with, and that public schools are in a much better position to provide that education, financed explicitly and intentionallly with public funds.

I saw this happen in my area, where there used to be three very similar sLACs. All of them were one hour from each other by car (no more than 90 minutes, in the worst traffic). Two of them closed down, eventually. The remaining sLAC is thriving. That's the strategic plan for struggling sLACs--outlast your direct regional competitors and you will thrive. I'm guessing that is what drives the plans to spend, invest, and pretend everything is just fine (to the the outside world). Up the ante on the arms race, and hope the competition will implode before you do, as they try to keep up with your debt-financed lavishness.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on November 01, 2021, 03:35:02 AM
Hmmm.  We seem to be following the "absorb the most expensive programs from local closures, fail to fund them, let that harm existing programs, and then decide that what we need is MORE OF THAT!"

And we didn't even need a consultant to waste 1/2 million dollars this time.

Progress?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 01, 2021, 01:49:13 PM
I'm seeing this processes from the inside.

I think I see the death spiral: fewer classes offered, fewer majors offered, bigger classes, more disgruntled students; and administration talking "survival" and deaf to any arguments from faculty.

One sees the catch-22: we have to limit the university to balance the budget; limiting the budget makes us less desirable. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 01, 2021, 02:30:21 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 01, 2021, 01:49:13 PM
I'm seeing this processes from the inside.

I think I see the death spiral: fewer classes offered, fewer majors offered, bigger classes, more disgruntled students; and administration talking "survival" and deaf to any arguments from faculty.

One sees the catch-22: we have to limit the university to balance the budget; limiting the budget makes us less desirable.

This and some of your other comments indicate that it's high time to entertain offers from other places, and that there is a good likelihood of more professional fulfillment after a move.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 01, 2021, 05:16:18 PM
Quote from: Hibush on November 01, 2021, 02:30:21 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 01, 2021, 01:49:13 PM
I'm seeing this processes from the inside.

I think I see the death spiral: fewer classes offered, fewer majors offered, bigger classes, more disgruntled students; and administration talking "survival" and deaf to any arguments from faculty.

One sees the catch-22: we have to limit the university to balance the budget; limiting the budget makes us less desirable.

This and some of your other comments indicate that it's high time to entertain offers from other places, and that there is a good likelihood of more professional fulfillment after a move.

From your lips (or keyboard) to God's ears, my friend.

And athletics are getting more money, some of the admin are scheduled for a 10% raise, and apparently a new administrative position has just been authorized despite the downsizing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Cheerful on November 02, 2021, 01:10:11 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 01, 2021, 05:16:18 PM
And athletics are getting more money, some of the admin are scheduled for a 10% raise, and apparently a new administrative position has just been authorized despite the downsizing.

Any new buildings or major renovations, like a new student fitness center?  Of course, "new buildings and 'capital 'improvements' exist in a whole different budget and we can't transfer those funds!" (Campus Admin Everywhere, 2021, p. 1).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 02, 2021, 02:45:14 PM
Quote from: Cheerful on November 02, 2021, 01:10:11 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 01, 2021, 05:16:18 PM
And athletics are getting more money, some of the admin are scheduled for a 10% raise, and apparently a new administrative position has just been authorized despite the downsizing.

Any new buildings or major renovations, like a new student fitness center?  Of course, "new buildings and 'capital 'improvements' exist in a whole different budget and we can't transfer those funds!" (Campus Admin Everywhere, 2021, p. 1).

There is a rumor that one decrepit parking garage is being torn down to make way for some sort of student collaborative center.  I guess with fewer students we would need fewer parking spaces. 

We are losing the emergency medicine and the medical lab technology programs.  A lot of people are shot in certain sections of our town...even fewer parking spaces will be needed in the future...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on November 02, 2021, 11:19:03 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 02, 2021, 02:45:14 PM
Quote from: Cheerful on November 02, 2021, 01:10:11 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 01, 2021, 05:16:18 PM
And athletics are getting more money, some of the admin are scheduled for a 10% raise, and apparently a new administrative position has just been authorized despite the downsizing.

Any new buildings or major renovations, like a new student fitness center?  Of course, "new buildings and 'capital 'improvements' exist in a whole different budget and we can't transfer those funds!" (Campus Admin Everywhere, 2021, p. 1).

There is a rumor that one decrepit parking garage is being torn down to make way for some sort of student collaborative center.  I guess with fewer students we would need fewer parking spaces. 

We are losing the emergency medicine and the medical lab technology programs.  A lot of people are shot in certain sections of our town...even fewer parking spaces will be needed in the future...

I don't know whether to laugh or cry, when you mention a "student collaborative center." Your admins must be really clueless, if they think student collaboration actually happens because of a "student collaborative center."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 03, 2021, 04:10:32 AM
Quote from: lightning on November 02, 2021, 11:19:03 PM
I don't know whether to laugh or cry, when you mention a "student collaborative center." Your admins must be really clueless, if they think student collaboration actually happens because of a "student collaborative center."

Aka a fraternity house where the rent goes to the operating budget?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 03, 2021, 03:52:08 PM
Quote from: Hibush on November 03, 2021, 04:10:32 AM
Quote from: lightning on November 02, 2021, 11:19:03 PM
I don't know whether to laugh or cry, when you mention a "student collaborative center." Your admins must be really clueless, if they think student collaboration actually happens because of a "student collaborative center."

Aka a fraternity house where the rent goes to the operating budget?

Our admincritters suddenly became inscrutable. We do have a consulting firm...and we were talking amongst ourselves about an FOI request to see, among other things, how much they are being paid and what they have said...but we are probably too cowed to actually do anything.  I imagine any critter would like to leave a building as a legacy.

This may have been posted somewhere on the Fora already, but someone on Reddit just provided this government database of closed colleges.  Wonder how long until ours makes the list.

https://www2.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/PEPS/closedschools.html

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 04, 2021, 07:16:33 AM
Wonder where in the midst of all those closed community colleges and cosmetology schools and so forth polly's "Super Dinky College" lurks?  I've tried for years to figure out where Super Dinky was, just out of curiosity.  But polly redacted or fudged enough details that I've been unable to do so.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on November 04, 2021, 07:38:31 AM
Quote from: apl68 on November 04, 2021, 07:16:33 AM
Wonder where in the midst of all those closed community colleges and cosmetology schools and so forth polly's "Super Dinky College" lurks?  I've tried for years to figure out where Super Dinky was, just out of curiosity.  But polly redacted or fudged enough details that I've been unable to do so.

It closed about a year ago. Turns out a friend also worked there and got out just in time.

I won't say more to protect various people's privacy, but polly's analysis was correct.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on November 05, 2021, 03:42:24 PM
Quote from: Hibush on October 31, 2021, 10:54:00 AM

[. . .]

The problem of having gone under water with no sign of flotation is far more widespread than Bloomfield. It is frightening that they cannot regognize the problem when the financial acumen required to recognize it is no more complicated than high-school household budgeting class.

[. . .]

Form 990s can be found at the websites of Charity Navigator and ProPublica Nonprofit Explorer. They are easy enough to understand. Ditto for the enrollment data on IPEDS.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on November 05, 2021, 05:36:30 PM
Yeah, towards the end of Polly's activity here last spring, she mentioned that SD had actually closed the May prior, I believe.
I do not know Polly IRL, but for some reason  I concluded that SD was probably in rural Illinois. I can no longer recall why I thought so.
I don't think that was based on anything that was clearly revealed.

Bigger schools in better shape than SD was are doing almost as badly now.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 06, 2021, 11:53:00 AM
Higher Ed Dive:

Database of college consolidations:

https://www.highereddive.com/news/how-many-colleges-and-universities-have-closed-since-2016/539379/

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on November 06, 2021, 02:43:27 PM
Dire Straits approaching?

   https://www.lcsun-news.com/story/news/education/2021/11/05/nmsu-president-john-floros-provost-carol-parker-faculty-senate-no-confidnence-students/6298049001/

Admin issues parallel those discussed above, but brought to a higher pitch, it seems....

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on November 07, 2021, 04:13:16 AM
I was/am a big fan of Polly, and always thought it was one of those schools in Iowa that I always thought about applying to but didn't because of Polly's advice. I can think of a school in Illinois that would match well, too. And I've been at TWO schools that greatly resembled SD (one of which closed while I was at it. Not fun for anyone.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 07, 2021, 08:36:21 AM
Polly pops up on Reddit from time to time with her typical mix of insult, bitterness, and wisdom. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on November 07, 2021, 10:06:42 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 07, 2021, 08:36:21 AM
Polly pops up on Reddit from time to time with her typical mix of insult, bitterness, and wisdom.

Is there a higher ed thread over there worth following? I tend to stick to this board for my dismal news these days.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 07, 2021, 12:01:06 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on November 07, 2021, 10:06:42 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 07, 2021, 08:36:21 AM
Polly pops up on Reddit from time to time with her typical mix of insult, bitterness, and wisdom.

Is there a higher ed thread over there worth following? I tend to stick to this board for my dismal news these days.

The threads tend to be the subjects we saw frequently on the old CHE Fora ("should I apply to this job?" "my advisor is mean!" "how to deal with an obnoxious grad student?" "should I go to grad school?") and less about the industry in general.  A great many threads are by European academics. Still, there are interesting conversations from time to time.  Reddit is better for Bigfoot sightings checking up on your favorite serial killer.  The Fora is better for discussion of school stuff.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on November 16, 2021, 08:48:11 PM
Quote from: mamselle on November 06, 2021, 02:43:27 PM
Dire Straits approaching?

   https://www.lcsun-news.com/story/news/education/2021/11/05/nmsu-president-john-floros-provost-carol-parker-faculty-senate-no-confidnence-students/6298049001/

Admin issues parallel those discussed above, but brought to a higher pitch, it seems....

M.

And right after that long-sought-after C-USA invite came.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 18, 2021, 11:56:33 AM
The National Student Clearinghouse has data on fall 2021 enrollment (https://nscresearchcenter.org/stay-informed/) that provide some insight into where the dire straits are. The trends are clear.

Community college enrollment is down, presumably because of the hiring boom and red-hot economy.

Selective non-profits are doing fine, even growing.
Non-selective non-profits, and for-profits are contracting (ca 10% over two years)

This fits the model of the weakest schools that collectively enroll 5-10% of undergraduates are the ones in dire straits.

Public community colleges normally experience big enrollment swings with economic cycles, so the well managed ones should have sustainable responses to those fluctuations. The current contraction should not be seen as a secular trend.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: larryc on November 25, 2021, 02:10:42 PM
Rant: The wheels are coming off at my university, a public regional comprehensive university. It is bad.

We always say we are a "tuition-dependent" state university, so any enrollment downturn hits us hard. What I didn't fully appreciate before COVID is how dependent we are on revenue from the cafeterias and dorms. We were all-online for a year, there were huge losses.

But wait, there is more! Even before COVID out Athletics department, by which I mean our football team, has been losing $10-12 million a year. They lie about this and hide it as best they can, but at a state institution with strong public records laws the truth has come out. Athletics at our university reports directly to the president as presents at every BOT meeting. To the trustees they are the university. Someting like 5% of students ever see a football game but they all pay $700/year in student fees to Athletics.

Anyway, last year we hit a $25 million deficit. The admin created slashing cuts everywhere. 47% of our classified staff were laid off in June of 2020. Programs were eliminated, adjuncts all fired, phones taken out of faculty offices. You can't get anything done on campus anymore, you email people or leave a phone message and there is no one to get back to you. A four-person office I often work with was reduced to one person, the most junior, who was told to do all the work.

But guess what wasn't cut? Athletics! The admin hired a group of consultants who consisted of retired coaches. The consultants decided that football was vital to the character of the institution in ways that were beyond quantification or even evidence. They said really we need to spend $4 million a year MORE on Athletics. The admin committed to meeting that goal.

So we are well and truly fucked. My department was combined with three others to "save money." Three secretaries were laid off and replaced (after a year with no secretary) with one, 80% person to serve 35 faculty. Our small but valuable grad program was eliminated (though we were allowed to start an online one). Every faculty Senate is a battle between angry faculty and our thin-skinned president who bristles at any criticism.

Enrollment is down another 20% this year as our rural portion of the state produces fewer high school graduates each year. And that number is about to drop off a cliff as the 2008 recession's birth dearth hits us. In the last ten years, we have invested heavily in our campus, we are paying bonds on lovely, state-of-the-art buildings that will never be full.

I turned 60 this year, and could probably retire in three years. I am actually a graduate of this institution and my wife and I met in a classroom where I now sometimes teach. I love this place. But we are so fucked.



Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on November 25, 2021, 03:30:20 PM
Yikes!!!

I'm glad to see your moniker, but would that it were under better circumstances.

Having been raised in Col's, OH, and having done my BA at Ohio State, I am fully aware and disgusted with the way athletics can take over a school...

But at least they seem to be making it work, somehow...

Is your retirement at risk as well? (As in, would they have some tricky little way to dip into those funds...?)

All good thoughts.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sinenomine on November 25, 2021, 03:56:13 PM
So sorry to hear that, larryc. :-(
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Antiphon1 on November 25, 2021, 04:51:18 PM
Condolences, larry.  It's here, too. Something's got to give.

I've been offered an academic coaching position (yes, it's head of tutoring) at an R1 that I will most likely take.  More money, less paper work, more autonomy, four assistants, reports directly to the AD - all in all a win.  The youngest anti graduates from HS this year, so it's good time to make the jump.  Oh, yeah, and it's in a town I really like.  While I'm sad about possibly leaving this place, I know it's inevitable.  You can't stay anywhere forever.  Maybe this is a "if you can't beat em join em" moment. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 25, 2021, 05:32:53 PM
We haven't always seen eye-to-eye, Larry, but I am truly sorry.

In some ways, your uni sounds just like ours at this point in time.

Best of luck.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on November 26, 2021, 02:13:01 AM
That is appalling, Larry. I wish someone up top had some sense.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on November 26, 2021, 11:46:05 AM
With several schools moving to FBS football (highest level), some of these are going to be in rough shape. They will lose the financial arms race since additional revenue they'll take in won't match the money they will need to spend on facilities and salaries. One coach who got fired criticized the half-hearted approach by not spending money on new uniforms this year and not allowing recruiting trips (even though it was a state that let up on Covid restrictions fairly early on).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 26, 2021, 03:49:03 PM
Maybe sports really are a necessity in contemporary higher ed. 

Our admin is defending the uptick in athletics spending with the pay-to-play theory of students, even though every undergrad from our very poor community pays around $1,200 every year to keep athletics afloat, even though we are hemorrhaging programs and shedding people, even though every one of our teams have very weighty "loss" columns, even through admin's theory simply doesn't make sense when we see the numbers (which were just made public).   

Maybe sports is simply a part of the higher ed landscape and are as important as other aspects of higher ed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 26, 2021, 04:17:12 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 26, 2021, 03:49:03 PM
Maybe sports really are a necessity in contemporary higher ed. 

Our admin is defending the uptick in athletics spending with the pay-to-play theory of students, even though every undergrad from our very poor community pays around $1,200 every year to keep athletics afloat, even though we are hemorrhaging programs and shedding people, even though every one of our teams have very weighty "loss" columns, even through admin's theory simply doesn't make sense when we see the numbers (which were just made public).   

Maybe sports is simply a part of the higher ed landscape and are as important as other aspects of higher ed.

Alas, this is astounding!

Quoteevery undergrad from our very poor community pays around $1,200 every year to keep athletics afloat

Get the logic of the system: We tax the poor $1200 per year so they can get an education. The tax proceeds are partially rebated to the poor in the form of bread and circuses.

QuoteMaybe sports is simply a part of the higher ed landscape and are as important as other aspects of higher ed.

Again, the logic of the system: Sports is a way to finance higher education! Makes sense if sports and education are a joint product or at least complements for some, such that one can't or doesn't want to become educated without imbibing in sports!

No, they are not joint products and they are not complements for all people. It's just that fun and games reduce the pain of getting educated for some or many, so it's privately worth paying for.

It's the sporty types who discovered how to rip off the education system. And we're being encouraged to pay more for it through taxes because tuition and enrollments aren't holding up.

Gimme a break.



Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 26, 2021, 04:35:45 PM
I was just asking because, no matter what, sports persevere.  I am of the opinion that it is time to divorce sports from all but Division I schools that can prove they are self-sustaining (and maybe even then too), but that is simply something that does not happen.

Maybe there is something we are missing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 26, 2021, 04:48:10 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 26, 2021, 04:35:45 PM
I was just asking because, no matter what, sports persevere.  I am of the opinion that it is time to divorce sports from all but Division I schools that can prove they are self-sustaining (and maybe even then too), but that is simply something that does not happen.

Maybe there is something we are missing.

No subsidies for tertiary education!

Then, those who want the sports can pay for it out of their own dime, in cash or as a loan. Division I or Division XX. It would sort itself out.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Harlow2 on November 26, 2021, 04:49:07 PM
So sorry, LarryC.  This is frightening account.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 26, 2021, 04:57:47 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 26, 2021, 04:48:10 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 26, 2021, 04:35:45 PM
I was just asking because, no matter what, sports persevere.  I am of the opinion that it is time to divorce sports from all but Division I schools that can prove they are self-sustaining (and maybe even then too), but that is simply something that does not happen.

Maybe there is something we are missing.

No subsidies for tertiary education!

Then, those who want the sports can pay for it out of their own dime, in cash or as a loan. Division I or Division XX. It would sort itself out.

I'm with you.

But that never happens.

In some ways, our opinions as academics are much less valuable than your average sports fan. 

Does anyone know if students understand that they are paying college athletes to play? 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on November 26, 2021, 05:02:54 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 26, 2021, 04:48:10 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 26, 2021, 04:35:45 PM
I was just asking because, no matter what, sports persevere.  I am of the opinion that it is time to divorce sports from all but Division I schools that can prove they are self-sustaining (and maybe even then too), but that is simply something that does not happen.

Maybe there is something we are missing.

No subsidies for tertiary education!

Then, those who want the sports can pay for it out of their own dime, in cash or as a loan. Division I or Division XX. It would sort itself out.

The problem is sports cost money and hardly any programs bring in money. The D-II and D-III schools at least aren't spending ungodly amounts on football and men's basketball.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 26, 2021, 06:28:30 PM
Quote from: Mobius on November 26, 2021, 05:02:54 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 26, 2021, 04:48:10 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 26, 2021, 04:35:45 PM
I was just asking because, no matter what, sports persevere.  I am of the opinion that it is time to divorce sports from all but Division I schools that can prove they are self-sustaining (and maybe even then too), but that is simply something that does not happen.

Maybe there is something we are missing.

No subsidies for tertiary education!

Then, those who want the sports can pay for it out of their own dime, in cash or as a loan. Division I or Division XX. It would sort itself out.

The problem is sports cost money and hardly any programs bring in money. The D-II and D-III schools at least aren't spending ungodly amounts on football and men's basketball.

How much is ungodly? I'm not really worried about spending, but about financing. If from tickets, e.g., fine. If as part of the U budget, subsidized by state governments and paid for from student fees, which can be borrowed, no.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on November 26, 2021, 07:28:29 PM
Quote from: Mobius on November 26, 2021, 05:02:54 PM


The problem is sports cost money and hardly any programs bring in money. The D-II and D-III schools at least aren't spending ungodly amounts on football and men's basketball.

They bring in students. And students bring in money. And students who enjoy sports might stick around long enough to graduate, thus helping success stats.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 26, 2021, 07:39:31 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 26, 2021, 07:28:29 PM
Quote from: Mobius on November 26, 2021, 05:02:54 PM


The problem is sports cost money and hardly any programs bring in money. The D-II and D-III schools at least aren't spending ungodly amounts on football and men's basketball.

They bring in students. And students bring in money. And students who enjoy sports might stick around long enough to graduate, thus helping success stats.

Graduating? In sports?

This is the, probably correct, attitude of a U president. It makes a mockery of the tertiary educational system.

Let them watch television. It's not subsidized.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 26, 2021, 07:54:24 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 26, 2021, 07:28:29 PM
Quote from: Mobius on November 26, 2021, 05:02:54 PM


The problem is sports cost money and hardly any programs bring in money. The D-II and D-III schools at least aren't spending ungodly amounts on football and men's basketball.

They bring in students. And students bring in money. And students who enjoy sports might stick around long enough to graduate, thus helping success stats.

Except this is really not what happens at a place like Larry's school or mine.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mleok on November 26, 2021, 09:34:34 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 26, 2021, 07:28:29 PM
Quote from: Mobius on November 26, 2021, 05:02:54 PM


The problem is sports cost money and hardly any programs bring in money. The D-II and D-III schools at least aren't spending ungodly amounts on football and men's basketball.

They bring in students. And students bring in money. And students who enjoy sports might stick around long enough to graduate, thus helping success stats.

My public R1 just moved to D-I, and the argument was that it would improve school spirit and alumni giving. We'll see if that happens in practice, although I rather doubt it. We already have more students (both in-state and international) than we know what to do with, so we don't need to improve enrollment numbers. At least we don't have a football team, and the coaches don't seem to be paid an ungodly amount.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dr_codex on November 27, 2021, 05:54:02 AM
This probably belongs on its own thread, but the business model for sports is changing rapidly. Professional sports in the US is acknowledging what everybody knew, and what was the norm almost everywhere else: the dominant role of gambling in almost every aspect of finance, administration, and coverage.  Sovereign states are using teams for money laundering investment and PR. And the brave new world of non-fungible tokens seems to be upon us: https://insidersport.com/2021/06/14/how-nfts-are-monetising-sports-teams-and-athletes-fanbases/ (https://insidersport.com/2021/06/14/how-nfts-are-monetising-sports-teams-and-athletes-fanbases/). Time to buy a piece of your school's mascot?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on November 27, 2021, 11:03:12 AM
Quote from: mleok on November 26, 2021, 09:34:34 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 26, 2021, 07:28:29 PM
Quote from: Mobius on November 26, 2021, 05:02:54 PM


The problem is sports cost money and hardly any programs bring in money. The D-II and D-III schools at least aren't spending ungodly amounts on football and men's basketball.

They bring in students. And students bring in money. And students who enjoy sports might stick around long enough to graduate, thus helping success stats.

My public R1 just moved to D-I, and the argument was that it would improve school spirit and alumni giving. We'll see if that happens in practice, although I rather doubt it. We already have more students (both in-state and international) than we know what to do with, so we don't need to improve enrollment numbers. At least we don't have a football team, and the coaches don't seem to be paid an ungodly amount.

Attendance at events once you get past the Power 5, plus Big East basketball, is generally abysmal. Pulled up attendance from 2018. New Hampshire averaged less than 500. Northern Arizona less than 1,000. NAU enrollment is around 20k on campus.

Check it out: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/2019/Attendance.pdf
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on November 27, 2021, 11:09:49 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 26, 2021, 07:54:24 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 26, 2021, 07:28:29 PM
Quote from: Mobius on November 26, 2021, 05:02:54 PM


The problem is sports cost money and hardly any programs bring in money. The D-II and D-III schools at least aren't spending ungodly amounts on football and men's basketball.

They bring in students. And students bring in money. And students who enjoy sports might stick around long enough to graduate, thus helping success stats.


Except this is really not what happens at a place like Larry's school or mine.

Probably true for you and Larry, but not true for others. My Athletic Director at a D3 Small LAC recently commented that he wanted to create two more sports teams (not football or basketball). He went on to say that at $50-60k-ish for a coach, if this coach recruits and retains 3 students, they pay for their position. If they can recruit and retain a team of 12-20 (depending on the sport) then this clearly works for schools desperate for students, which we are. And at least at my school, athletes are retained and graduate at higher rates than the general student population. They tend to be more engaged alums as well.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 27, 2021, 11:23:01 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on November 27, 2021, 11:09:49 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 26, 2021, 07:54:24 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 26, 2021, 07:28:29 PM
Quote from: Mobius on November 26, 2021, 05:02:54 PM


The problem is sports cost money and hardly any programs bring in money. The D-II and D-III schools at least aren't spending ungodly amounts on football and men's basketball.

They bring in students. And students bring in money. And students who enjoy sports might stick around long enough to graduate, thus helping success stats.


Except this is really not what happens at a place like Larry's school or mine.

Probably true for you and Larry, but not true for others. My Athletic Director at a D3 Small LAC recently commented that he wanted to create two more sports teams (not football or basketball). He went on to say that at $50-60k-ish for a coach, if this coach recruits and retains 3 students, they pay for their position. If they can recruit and retain a team of 12-20 (depending on the sport) then this clearly works for schools desperate for students, which we are. And at least at my school, athletes are retained and graduate at higher rates than the general student population. They tend to be more engaged alums as well.

Polly would routinely echo this for many D-3s. It is not the reality for pretty much any D1 or D2 programs, especially those with football. Below is a link pertaining to the University of Cincinnati, which has had an extremely successful basketball program, and over the period described a really good football program. Currently 12-0, and in the top 4, slated for the College Football Playoff if the team wins one more game. Losses over the last 12 years (data doesn't include last year) of $250,000,000. Last year was another $32.9 million. It is a public, and each student "contributes" $1,150 per year to athletics.

Disclaimer: I have been a fan since I was a kid back in 1960.

https://www.newsrecord.org/news/red-ink-rising-uc-s-12-year-athletic-deficit-rises-to-a-quarter-of-a/article_3d841df6-7e92-11ea-9261-2f63f21e7ef7.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on November 27, 2021, 11:26:06 AM
D-III is a different universe. D-III schools also base revenue on high projections. Plenty of cases where they can't get high-quality students. Think non-selective LACs where athletes will bounce around due to poor grades.

Some D-III are also trying to catch sports booms such as lacrosse that is now national, so schools are looking to capture all those new high school players.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 27, 2021, 11:49:29 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on November 27, 2021, 11:09:49 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 26, 2021, 07:54:24 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 26, 2021, 07:28:29 PM
Quote from: Mobius on November 26, 2021, 05:02:54 PM


The problem is sports cost money and hardly any programs bring in money. The D-II and D-III schools at least aren't spending ungodly amounts on football and men's basketball.

They bring in students. And students bring in money. And students who enjoy sports might stick around long enough to graduate, thus helping success stats.


Except this is really not what happens at a place like Larry's school or mine.

Probably true for you and Larry, but not true for others. My Athletic Director at a D3 Small LAC recently commented that he wanted to create two more sports teams (not football or basketball). He went on to say that at $50-60k-ish for a coach, if this coach recruits and retains 3 students, they pay for their position. If they can recruit and retain a team of 12-20 (depending on the sport) then this clearly works for schools desperate for students, which we are. And at least at my school, athletes are retained and graduate at higher rates than the general student population. They tend to be more engaged alums as well.

That is our argument as well.  I bought it until I actually saw the numbers.  There are a great many more expenses than just a coach's salary for one thing. 

Do your students subsidize your athletics through fees?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on November 27, 2021, 12:40:23 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 27, 2021, 11:49:29 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on November 27, 2021, 11:09:49 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 26, 2021, 07:54:24 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 26, 2021, 07:28:29 PM
Quote from: Mobius on November 26, 2021, 05:02:54 PM


The problem is sports cost money and hardly any programs bring in money. The D-II and D-III schools at least aren't spending ungodly amounts on football and men's basketball.

They bring in students. And students bring in money. And students who enjoy sports might stick around long enough to graduate, thus helping success stats.


Except this is really not what happens at a place like Larry's school or mine.

Probably true for you and Larry, but not true for others. My Athletic Director at a D3 Small LAC recently commented that he wanted to create two more sports teams (not football or basketball). He went on to say that at $50-60k-ish for a coach, if this coach recruits and retains 3 students, they pay for their position. If they can recruit and retain a team of 12-20 (depending on the sport) then this clearly works for schools desperate for students, which we are. And at least at my school, athletes are retained and graduate at higher rates than the general student population. They tend to be more engaged alums as well.

That is our argument as well.  I bought it until I actually saw the numbers.  There are a great many more expenses than just a coach's salary for one thing. 

Do your students subsidize your athletics through fees?

The only fee we have is the student activity fee of $200 which is for running student government and student clubs on campus.  So explicitly, the students are not funding athletics via fees; however, indirectly the cost of the college experience, including athletics, is folded into tuition. Regardless, $60K not spent on a coach could be $60K to spend on anything else (but hopefully not consultants, because we spend plenty of money on them and get next to nothing in return.)

The only other real costs I can think of related to expanding the number of athletic teams would be the increased competition for practice time on limited fields and spaces on campus. Transportation costs would also increase for the college. And the potential need to hire more athletic trainers, although I bet you could keep that expense the same and just ask the athletes to wait longer for treatments. "Learn to tape your own ankle, kid."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on November 27, 2021, 02:14:45 PM
Reminds me of an interview I had with a struggling SLAC that was an NAIA school instead of NCAA. The school. More than half of the student body were athletes. Graduation rate was less than 50%. Pay for assistant profs was under $40k. Athletics is keep the lights on, but that's it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 27, 2021, 02:35:37 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on November 27, 2021, 12:40:23 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 27, 2021, 11:49:29 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on November 27, 2021, 11:09:49 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 26, 2021, 07:54:24 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 26, 2021, 07:28:29 PM
Quote from: Mobius on November 26, 2021, 05:02:54 PM


The problem is sports cost money and hardly any programs bring in money. The D-II and D-III schools at least aren't spending ungodly amounts on football and men's basketball.

They bring in students. And students bring in money. And students who enjoy sports might stick around long enough to graduate, thus helping success stats.


Except this is really not what happens at a place like Larry's school or mine.

Probably true for you and Larry, but not true for others. My Athletic Director at a D3 Small LAC recently commented that he wanted to create two more sports teams (not football or basketball). He went on to say that at $50-60k-ish for a coach, if this coach recruits and retains 3 students, they pay for their position. If they can recruit and retain a team of 12-20 (depending on the sport) then this clearly works for schools desperate for students, which we are. And at least at my school, athletes are retained and graduate at higher rates than the general student population. They tend to be more engaged alums as well.

That is our argument as well.  I bought it until I actually saw the numbers.  There are a great many more expenses than just a coach's salary for one thing. 

Do your students subsidize your athletics through fees?

The only fee we have is the student activity fee of $200 which is for running student government and student clubs on campus.  So explicitly, the students are not funding athletics via fees; however, indirectly the cost of the college experience, including athletics, is folded into tuition. Regardless, $60K not spent on a coach could be $60K to spend on anything else (but hopefully not consultants, because we spend plenty of money on them and get next to nothing in return.)

The only other real costs I can think of related to expanding the number of athletic teams would be the increased competition for practice time on limited fields and spaces on campus. Transportation costs would also increase for the college. And the potential need to hire more athletic trainers, although I bet you could keep that expense the same and just ask the athletes to wait longer for treatments. "Learn to tape your own ankle, kid."

Well, there are gyms, training equipment, athletic equipment (football, hockey, and lacrosse in particular), towels and uniforms, sodding the fields (that came up this year for us----you would not believe how much that costs), stadium maintenance, locker rooms, office overhead, promotional materials, insurance, and usually more than one coaching salary per team (although these are often volunteer or PT).  So I do not know about additional costs of adding teams, but none of that stuff is free.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 27, 2021, 02:41:51 PM
Some of the posts above are guilty of the Fallacy of Composition. Even if maintaining or expanding sports were to work for one or the other college, that doesn't mean it will work for all. In fact, it can't.

The U President pursuing a sports strategy not only has to think s/he's smart, but also has to get lucky.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 27, 2021, 02:50:28 PM
We offer tutoring to athletes and they have student advocates too.  I forgot about those.  Personally I like having athletes in my classes----as others have noted, they are usually cool and self-motivated people.  And I tend to think they are nice people.  My best student this year is on the women's basketball team.

As I wondered above, maybe athletics are simply part of the academic organism like any other organ.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 27, 2021, 02:54:03 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 27, 2021, 02:50:28 PM
We offer tutoring to athletes and they have student advocates too.  I forgot about those.  Personally I like having athletes in my classes----as others have noted, they are usually cool and self-motivated people.  And I tend to think they are nice people.  My best student this year is on the women's basketball team.

As I wondered above, maybe athletics are simply part of the academic organism like any other organ.

Except in the rest of the world. American exceptionalism!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on November 27, 2021, 03:09:54 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 27, 2021, 02:54:03 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 27, 2021, 02:50:28 PM
We offer tutoring to athletes and they have student advocates too.  I forgot about those.  Personally I like having athletes in my classes----as others have noted, they are usually cool and self-motivated people.  And I tend to think they are nice people.  My best student this year is on the women's basketball team.

As I wondered above, maybe athletics are simply part of the academic organism like any other organ.

Except in the rest of the world. American exceptionalism!

In Canada, I think at my campus a coffee shop closing would get more attention than a team getting shut down. In a year when a team wins a provincial or national title, the team probably gets about a weekend's worth of recognition out of it. (i.e. the weekend on which the game is played.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 27, 2021, 04:23:26 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 27, 2021, 02:41:51 PM
Some of the posts above are guilty of the Fallacy of Composition. Even if maintaining or expanding sports were to work for one or the other college, that doesn't mean it will work for all. In fact, it can't.

The U President pursuing a sports strategy not only has to think s/he's smart, but also has to get lucky.

Just think: Let's expand our English Department and/or our Chemistry Department. We all know that won't work. Instead, expanding Sports some believe will work. And it's still College? But it can't work for all.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on November 27, 2021, 04:37:35 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 27, 2021, 04:23:26 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 27, 2021, 02:41:51 PM
Some of the posts above are guilty of the Fallacy of Composition. Even if maintaining or expanding sports were to work for one or the other college, that doesn't mean it will work for all. In fact, it can't.

The U President pursuing a sports strategy not only has to think s/he's smart, but also has to get lucky.

Just think: Let's expand our English Department and/or our Chemistry Department. We all know that won't work. Instead, expanding Sports some believe will work. And it's still College? But it can't work for all.

You aren't wrong dismalist, but you remind me of a joke about being chased by a bear

Steve and Mark are camping when a bear suddenly comes out and growls.  Steve starts putting on his tennis shoes.
Mark says, "What are you doing? You can't outrun a bear!"
Steve says, "I don't have to outrun the bear—I just have to outrun you!"

Many schools think they have a first-mover advantage on many fronts (new curriculum, new majors, new sports) even though they do not, but even if that assumption is wrong, all they really need to do is outlast the other schools also circling the drain in the hopes that they can grab their former students.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 27, 2021, 04:56:29 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on November 27, 2021, 04:37:35 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 27, 2021, 04:23:26 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 27, 2021, 02:41:51 PM
Some of the posts above are guilty of the Fallacy of Composition. Even if maintaining or expanding sports were to work for one or the other college, that doesn't mean it will work for all. In fact, it can't.

The U President pursuing a sports strategy not only has to think s/he's smart, but also has to get lucky.

Just think: Let's expand our English Department and/or our Chemistry Department. We all know that won't work. Instead, expanding Sports some believe will work. And it's still College? But it can't work for all.

You aren't wrong dismalist, but you remind me of a joke about being chased by a bear

Steve and Mark are camping when a bear suddenly comes out and growls.  Steve starts putting on his tennis shoes.
Mark says, "What are you doing? You can't outrun a bear!"
Steve says, "I don't have to outrun the bear—I just have to outrun you!"

Many schools think they have a first-mover advantage on many fronts (new curriculum, new majors, new sports) even though they do not, but even if that assumption is wrong, all they really need to do is outlast the other schools also circling the drain in the hopes that they can grab their former students.

Fallacy of Composition. Everyone can think of their own institution. I'm thinking of the system.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pgher on November 27, 2021, 11:56:49 PM
Another point that has gotten lost in the discussion about sports was the impact of housing & dining services on campus finances. Many people, including my college-age kids, thought in spring 2020, Hey, I'm not in a dorm or eating food, so it should save the college money, right? So of course colleges had to give back what they had collected. Then followed a year of less-than-normal occupancy. But debt service continued, dining service contracts continued, etc. Colleges have been investing in dorms for two generations now, which was fine as long as the residential college experience was normative. But any hiccup at all and the system crashes.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on November 28, 2021, 09:07:58 AM
Quote from: dismalist on November 27, 2021, 04:56:29 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on November 27, 2021, 04:37:35 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 27, 2021, 04:23:26 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 27, 2021, 02:41:51 PM
Some of the posts above are guilty of the Fallacy of Composition. Even if maintaining or expanding sports were to work for one or the other college, that doesn't mean it will work for all. In fact, it can't.

The U President pursuing a sports strategy not only has to think s/he's smart, but also has to get lucky.

Just think: Let's expand our English Department and/or our Chemistry Department. We all know that won't work. Instead, expanding Sports some believe will work. And it's still College? But it can't work for all.

You aren't wrong dismalist, but you remind me of a joke about being chased by a bear

Steve and Mark are camping when a bear suddenly comes out and growls.  Steve starts putting on his tennis shoes.
Mark says, "What are you doing? You can't outrun a bear!"
Steve says, "I don't have to outrun the bear—I just have to outrun you!"

Many schools think they have a first-mover advantage on many fronts (new curriculum, new majors, new sports) even though they do not, but even if that assumption is wrong, all they really need to do is outlast the other schools also circling the drain in the hopes that they can grab their former students.

Fallacy of Composition. Everyone can think of their own institution. I'm thinking of the system.

True, but there is nuance lost in the middle between what happens in the system and what happens to an individual institution.  Assumption up front: I do not believe that the entire system will fail, or that all SLACs will fail,  but individual institutions will. Further, most schools have no idea if they will fail or succeed. Hope isn't a plan. But, clearly some will make it, either through luck, the grace of God, etc., and it is that hope that keeps schools going in the short run. In the long run is where the shake-out of schools happens.

It reminds me of the story told in a field you might be able to relate to, dismalist. <warning to everyone else, dismalist and I are going into the econ weeds here> Let's think of the story of perfect competition and the long run. When profits are negative firms exit. We assume that all firms are homogeneous in the model, so who exits? Clearly not everyone in some bang-bang solution where everyone leaves. Here's where the nuance comes in. We then acknowledge that all firms in perfect competition really are not homogeneous, and that there are meaningful differences in cost structures, so that who exits are the relatively more inefficient firms.  The system shrinks. I completely agree. But who does the leaving matters. And I agree with you that no school  knows the answer to that ahead of time. Hence the hope. But I get it, the dismal science is dismal for a reason.  The fallacy of composition is real, but not all schools will fail, so here's to hoping your school is a shred more efficient than the next school.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on November 28, 2021, 09:41:05 AM
If you are raising significantly more money, especially for endowment, and/or enrollments are increasing without a decline in quality, you'll probably live out the decade at least. Maybe outlive competitors. But for small non elite schools the biggest competitor is always the state system, not the nearest small school.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on November 28, 2021, 10:07:47 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on November 28, 2021, 09:41:05 AM
If you are raising significantly more money, especially for endowment, and/or enrollments are increasing without a decline in quality, you'll probably live out the decade at least. Maybe outlive competitors. But for small non elite schools the biggest competitor is always the state system, not the nearest small school.

I'd imagine the biggest threat to small non-elite schools is demographics; they rely on sufficient students from their local area, and probably have very little chance of recruiting from elsewhere. When the local age cohort drops sufficiently, they're done.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on November 28, 2021, 11:24:10 AM
Depends on how local.  For some schools, "local" can meet up to two states over. For others, its two towns over, maybe. But for either, a big state system is always going to be the biggest competitor that never goes away. If their share in the area goes up relative to the small schools, probably because of demographics, then yes, the smaller schools are living on borrowed time...or no time.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on November 28, 2021, 03:16:42 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on November 28, 2021, 11:24:10 AM
Depends on how local.  For some schools, "local" can meet up to two states over. For others, its two towns over, maybe. But for either, a big state system is always going to be the biggest competitor that never goes away. If their share in the area goes up relative to the small schools, probably because of demographics, then yes, the smaller schools are living on borrowed time...or no time.

True, state schools are competition, but the product isn't exactly the same depending on what the student wants and needs. For example, we cater to a needy student who requires regular faculty-student interactions and who would not thrive in a 50+ person classroom, or on a big campus. COVID really brought home the need for some students to have a certain type of learning community to thrive. That's our value added. Our classes are the same as every other school, and our tuition is higher. But, and this a big but, if there are still students willing and able to pay for the residential, small LAC experience, we will stay in business. And we only need 400-500 incoming students per year to make the numbers work. Picking up an extra 50 students through more sports recruiting and another 50 via a closed SLAC nearby can make all the difference for a place like mine. Not every school is like mine, but plenty are.  If state schools can somehow "feel" small and keep student-faculty ratios low, then we have a real problem, but that's not what I am seeing in my state.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on November 28, 2021, 04:15:57 PM
Don't need to SLAC-splain, I've been at one for 22 years. My point is that the mission of small schools barely matters even for people who claim it matters. They put in their applications at the state school and a few others. For more than half of them, their first choice is the state school (and I don't mean the flagship in most cases). No other needs mean much when they can get the basics for much cheaper. That's what they tell us.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: quasihumanist on November 28, 2021, 05:55:58 PM
If you're just looking for the credential and don't care about learning, the state school is cheaper and requires less studying (as long as you don't pick the "wrong" major).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on November 28, 2021, 06:38:59 PM
This description.applies to about a third to half of our students, and probably more before they arrive.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 28, 2021, 07:18:23 PM
Quote from: quasihumanist on November 28, 2021, 05:55:58 PM
If you're just looking for the credential and don't care about learning, the state school is cheaper and requires less studying (as long as you don't pick the "wrong" major).

I always take heat for this, but I will post it again:

Business and tech jobs. 

This is where higher ed is going, and maybe that's the way it is supposed to go.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 28, 2021, 07:30:13 PM
Quote from: quasihumanist on November 28, 2021, 05:55:58 PM
If you're just looking for the credential and don't care about learning, the state school is cheaper and requires less studying (as long as you don't pick the "wrong" major).

Absolutely, quasi, it's the credential that matters to get a wage premium. It's not that some majors eventually earn more than others, though they do, but that all get a premium, even, ... well, all can guess. That's because the college credential serves as a signaling device for many or most. An arms race, privately profitable and socially wasteful.

Thus, it's perfectly rational for a student to not care about learning, to go to a party school, to have grade inflation, and to have content that administrators, and only administratoirs, like.

Word has gotten around. The efficient solution would be to stop all subsidies to tertiary education, but the votes may be the other way -- for parties at school, touchy feely stuff, support groups, anybody can name it, and again, rationally so.

Only, it's not education.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: quasihumanist on November 29, 2021, 08:44:21 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 28, 2021, 07:30:13 PM
The efficient solution would be to stop all subsidies to tertiary education

The efficient solution would be to simply have everyone who can't contribute enough to the economy more than what it would take to give them a minimum standard of living - uh - raptured.

Efficiency isn't everything.

The question is how we take care of the half of our population that is disabled - all the "essential" workers who clearly aren't (at least until all their potential replacements are raptured), given how the economy can get away with treating them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 29, 2021, 09:05:44 PM
Quote from: quasihumanist on November 29, 2021, 08:44:21 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 28, 2021, 07:30:13 PM
The efficient solution would be to stop all subsidies to tertiary education

The efficient solution would be to simply have everyone who can't contribute enough to the economy more than what it would take to give them a minimum standard of living - uh - raptured.

Efficiency isn't everything.

The question is how we take care of the half of our population that is disabled - all the "essential" workers who clearly aren't (at least until all their potential replacements are raptured), given how the economy can get away with treating them.

Absolutely, quasi. Give the poor money.

By the way, "the economy" is us! :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on November 30, 2021, 06:00:43 AM
Quote from: quasihumanist on November 29, 2021, 08:44:21 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 28, 2021, 07:30:13 PM
The efficient solution would be to stop all subsidies to tertiary education

The efficient solution would be to simply have everyone who can't contribute enough to the economy more than what it would take to give them a minimum standard of living - uh - raptured.

Efficiency isn't everything.

The question is how we take care of the half of our population that is disabled - all the "essential" workers who clearly aren't (at least until all their potential replacements are raptured), given how the economy can get away with treating them.

This is where a UBI has potential benefit. If everyone gets a baseline income, and unemployment, welfare, disability, old age, etc. benefits go away, then everyone is better off financially by every dollar they earn. There are no clawbacks or thresholds to make people have to calculate whether earning something is worth it. On the other hand, because of the baseline income, losing a job or getting injured isn't an immediate economic crisis.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 30, 2021, 02:57:53 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 30, 2021, 06:00:43 AM
Quote from: quasihumanist on November 29, 2021, 08:44:21 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 28, 2021, 07:30:13 PM
The efficient solution would be to stop all subsidies to tertiary education

The efficient solution would be to simply have everyone who can't contribute enough to the economy more than what it would take to give them a minimum standard of living - uh - raptured.

Efficiency isn't everything.

The question is how we take care of the half of our population that is disabled - all the "essential" workers who clearly aren't (at least until all their potential replacements are raptured), given how the economy can get away with treating them.

This is where a UBI has potential benefit. If everyone gets a baseline income, and unemployment, welfare, disability, old age, etc. benefits go away, then everyone is better off financially by every dollar they earn. There are no clawbacks or thresholds to make people have to calculate whether earning something is worth it. On the other hand, because of the baseline income, losing a job or getting injured isn't an immediate economic crisis.

Which is why I'm for a UBI [though details matter].
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on November 30, 2021, 05:55:32 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 30, 2021, 02:57:53 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 30, 2021, 06:00:43 AM
Quote from: quasihumanist on November 29, 2021, 08:44:21 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 28, 2021, 07:30:13 PM
The efficient solution would be to stop all subsidies to tertiary education

The efficient solution would be to simply have everyone who can't contribute enough to the economy more than what it would take to give them a minimum standard of living - uh - raptured.

Efficiency isn't everything.

The question is how we take care of the half of our population that is disabled - all the "essential" workers who clearly aren't (at least until all their potential replacements are raptured), given how the economy can get away with treating them.

This is where a UBI has potential benefit. If everyone gets a baseline income, and unemployment, welfare, disability, old age, etc. benefits go away, then everyone is better off financially by every dollar they earn. There are no clawbacks or thresholds to make people have to calculate whether earning something is worth it. On the other hand, because of the baseline income, losing a job or getting injured isn't an immediate economic crisis.

Which is why I'm for a UBI [though details matter].

Any Canadians on the Fora remember Réal Caouette and the Social Credit Party back in the 70's?  It's scarcely a new idea and if you are into development studies, you'll be aware of a number of fairly successful conditional cash transfer programs in Mexico and other countries.  Turns out one way to avoid poverty is actually giving people money.  Who knew???
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on December 01, 2021, 08:56:26 AM
Prosperity Certificates. The few UBU experiments have been limited to providing money to what benefits you already get. I haven't seen any experiments where you'd get a certain amount of cash in lieu of other benefits. I don't know of any developed countries besides the U.S. that has a SNAP-like program. Other countries are more generous with cash payments and have better housing benefits than the U.S. does.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Stockmann on December 01, 2021, 10:35:39 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on November 30, 2021, 05:55:32 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 30, 2021, 02:57:53 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 30, 2021, 06:00:43 AM
Quote from: quasihumanist on November 29, 2021, 08:44:21 PM
The question is how we take care of the half of our population that is disabled - all the "essential" workers who clearly aren't (at least until all their potential replacements are raptured), given how the economy can get away with treating them.

This is where a UBI has potential benefit. If everyone gets a baseline income, and unemployment, welfare, disability, old age, etc. benefits go away, then everyone is better off financially by every dollar they earn. There are no clawbacks or thresholds to make people have to calculate whether earning something is worth it. On the other hand, because of the baseline income, losing a job or getting injured isn't an immediate economic crisis.

Which is why I'm for a UBI [though details matter].

Any Canadians on the Fora remember Réal Caouette and the Social Credit Party back in the 70's?  It's scarcely a new idea and if you are into development studies, you'll be aware of a number of fairly successful conditional cash transfer programs in Mexico and other countries.  Turns out one way to avoid poverty is actually giving people money.  Who knew???

Mexico? Well, I guess it's all relative, it's been a success compared to Venezuela, which has also done conditional cash transfers (conditional on political loyalty, of course). But, in Latin America, Chile has been far more successful than Mexico at reducing poverty rates, despite Mexico spending large sums nominally on fighting poverty. On the other hand, comparing Chilean and Mexican policies isn't really a fair comparison, as Chile has got its act together in terms of the basics of governance (in some respects, more than some EU members) whereas Mexico has whole regions where the State has already failed.
But in terms of UBI, let's do the math: the pre-pandemic US federal budget was about $4 tn, and the number of American adults residing in the US is of the order of 200 million. Obviously devoting the entire federal budget to UBI is completely unrealistically generous, but let's use that figure for the sake of argument. Also, adult American citizens residing in the US is pretty much the narrowest category that could plausibly be labeled "universal" (excluding minors, green card holders and other immigrants, and Americans residing abroad) - even taking these extremes, it would amount to about $20 k, which isn't much above minimum wage working full-time. Again, this is using an unrealistically (easily by an order of magnitude or more) generous numerator and the smallest plausible denominator. Yes, UBI would solve poverty, like manna from heaven would solve world hunger.
Also, the experimental results aren't very encouraging - I don't mean programs where they've basically run a free lottery (so very much not universal), I mean places where a combo of handouts, direct and indirect subsidies, and low taxes amount to de facto UBI, like the Gulf States (or, for a while, Venezuela). It hasn't exactly led to an explosion of creativity and entrepreneurship. To some extent, the French banlieus, British housing estates and similar places in other parts of Europe where there are a lot of adults with an income from the State unconnected to work are also real-world Western "experiments" in how UBI might work, and the results aren't promising, either.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 01, 2021, 10:57:14 AM
Quote from: Stockmann on December 01, 2021, 10:35:39 AM

But in terms of UBI, let's do the math: the pre-pandemic US federal budget was about $4 tn, and the number of American adults residing in the US is of the order of 200 million. Obviously devoting the entire federal budget to UBI is completely unrealistically generous, but let's use that figure for the sake of argument. Also, adult American citizens residing in the US is pretty much the narrowest category that could plausibly be labeled "universal" (excluding minors, green card holders and other immigrants, and Americans residing abroad) - even taking these extremes, it would amount to about $20 k, which isn't much above minimum wage working full-time.

That's higher than would be necessary. The point isn't to make some sort of "living wage" without doing anything; it's to make a simpler *safety net than now exists. Various existing programs have eligibility criteria, waiting periods, etc. that make them complicated and inefficient. As I said above, with a UBI every dollar of earned income would be taxable, so there would be incentive for everyone to work, but also tax income from all of that work.


*Families, shared accommodation, etc. would make it possible for individuals with only UBI to pool resources.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on December 01, 2021, 11:17:17 AM
Quote from: quasihumanist on November 29, 2021, 08:44:21 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 28, 2021, 07:30:13 PM
The efficient solution would be to stop all subsidies to tertiary education

The efficient solution would be to simply have everyone who can't contribute enough to the economy more than what it would take to give them a minimum standard of living - uh - raptured.

Efficiency isn't everything.

The question is how we take care of the half of our population that is disabled - all the "essential" workers who clearly aren't (at least until all their potential replacements are raptured), given how the economy can get away with treating them.

Disabled is one of those issues that is problematic. There is clearly some work many who consider themselves disabled can do. The question is how to allocate those jobs, and do it in a way that non-disabled would accept, especially with regards to low-paid manual labor.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Stockmann on December 01, 2021, 11:33:43 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 01, 2021, 10:57:14 AM
Quote from: Stockmann on December 01, 2021, 10:35:39 AM

But in terms of UBI, let's do the math: the pre-pandemic US federal budget was about $4 tn, and the number of American adults residing in the US is of the order of 200 million. Obviously devoting the entire federal budget to UBI is completely unrealistically generous, but let's use that figure for the sake of argument. Also, adult American citizens residing in the US is pretty much the narrowest category that could plausibly be labeled "universal" (excluding minors, green card holders and other immigrants, and Americans residing abroad) - even taking these extremes, it would amount to about $20 k, which isn't much above minimum wage working full-time.

That's higher than would be necessary. The point isn't to make some sort of "living wage" without doing anything; it's to make a simpler *safety net than now exists. Various existing programs have eligibility criteria, waiting periods, etc. that make them complicated and inefficient. As I said above, with a UBI every dollar of earned income would be taxable, so there would be incentive for everyone to work, but also tax income from all of that work.


*Families, shared accommodation, etc. would make it possible for individuals with only UBI to pool resources.


It's also much higher than would be realistic. The US federal welfare budget, including Medicaid, is of the order or $ 800 bn. That would yield, again using the narrowest plausible definition of universal, of the order of $4 k. Not enough for anyone to live on even pooling resources. Minus Medicaid, it's of the order of $ 400 bn, which would yield a UBI of the order of $ 2k. It would be administratively simpler, yes, but would also amount to a massive cut for basically anyone getting benefits in the US today, and such UBI would basically be peanuts for anyone middle class or above.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 01, 2021, 11:38:24 AM
Quote from: Stockmann on December 01, 2021, 11:33:43 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 01, 2021, 10:57:14 AM
Quote from: Stockmann on December 01, 2021, 10:35:39 AM

But in terms of UBI, let's do the math: the pre-pandemic US federal budget was about $4 tn, and the number of American adults residing in the US is of the order of 200 million. Obviously devoting the entire federal budget to UBI is completely unrealistically generous, but let's use that figure for the sake of argument. Also, adult American citizens residing in the US is pretty much the narrowest category that could plausibly be labeled "universal" (excluding minors, green card holders and other immigrants, and Americans residing abroad) - even taking these extremes, it would amount to about $20 k, which isn't much above minimum wage working full-time.

That's higher than would be necessary. The point isn't to make some sort of "living wage" without doing anything; it's to make a simpler *safety net than now exists. Various existing programs have eligibility criteria, waiting periods, etc. that make them complicated and inefficient. As I said above, with a UBI every dollar of earned income would be taxable, so there would be incentive for everyone to work, but also tax income from all of that work.


*Families, shared accommodation, etc. would make it possible for individuals with only UBI to pool resources.


It's also much higher than would be realistic. The US federal welfare budget, including Medicaid, is of the order or $ 800 bn. That would yield, again using the narrowest plausible definition of universal, of the order of $4 k. Not enough for anyone to live on even pooling resources. Minus Medicaid, it's of the order of $ 400 bn, which would yield a UBI of the order of $ 2k. It would be administratively simpler, yes, but would also amount to a massive cut for basically anyone getting benefits in the US today, and such UBI would basically be peanuts for anyone middle class or above.

Of course it would. That's the point. It's meant as a safety net, replacing the hodge-podge of existing programs and filling in the gaps. It's to mitigate poverty, not to augment normal incomes. (And of course, it's irrational to imagine a system that would increase everyone's income. A UBI would probably have some break-even point with the changes to taxes so individuals earning above $50k, or something like that, would get less money than now.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Stockmann on December 01, 2021, 06:30:53 PM
My point is that pretty much nobody would be better off - a lot of welfare recipients would get a lot less and therefore be worse off, and for those too wealthy to benefit from existing welfare programs it would make no real difference. Another way to put it is that, mathematically, if you take the entire present spending on welfare, and increase the denominator (splitting it among "everyone"), then on average those who are currently beneficiaries would get less (same numerator, bigger denominator). That is a mathematical certainty, unless the bulk of welfare spending does not reach the ostensible beneficiaries (due to admin bloat, fraud, whatever) and you also assume these problems would disappear with UBI (my order-of-magnitude estimates assume negligible admin costs for UBI). I'm not seeing any reason to believe that an UBI that isn't peanuts even for current welfare recipients can be set up unless you have something like Abu Dhabi's revenue-to-population ratio or don't care about bringing about financial ruin (the Venezuelan approach).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on December 01, 2021, 06:41:35 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on December 01, 2021, 06:30:53 PM
My point is that pretty much nobody would be better off - a lot of welfare recipients would get a lot less and therefore be worse off, and for those too wealthy to benefit from existing welfare programs it would make no real difference. Another way to put it is that, mathematically, if you take the entire present spending on welfare, and increase the denominator (splitting it among "everyone"), then on average those who are currently beneficiaries would get less (same numerator, bigger denominator). That is a mathematical certainty, unless the bulk of welfare spending does not reach the ostensible beneficiaries (due to admin bloat, fraud, whatever) and you also assume these problems would disappear with UBI (my order-of-magnitude estimates assume negligible admin costs for UBI). I'm not seeing any reason to believe that an UBI that isn't peanuts even for current welfare recipients can be set up unless you have something like Abu Dhabi's revenue-to-population ratio or don't care about bringing about financial ruin (the Venezuelan approach).

Current welfare programs have cutoffs that make the marginal tax rate on billionaires look low. It's called the "poverty trap". Consolidate and make a non idiotic marginal "loss of benefits" rate -- equivalent to the marginal tax rate, and the incentive to not work will be lessened. It will pay to work.

What matters for incentives is the margin, not the average. Thus, one could be generous with transfers so long as the loss of transfers is not idiotic when one works.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 02, 2021, 04:24:55 AM
Quote from: dismalist on December 01, 2021, 06:41:35 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on December 01, 2021, 06:30:53 PM
My point is that pretty much nobody would be better off - a lot of welfare recipients would get a lot less and therefore be worse off, and for those too wealthy to benefit from existing welfare programs it would make no real difference. Another way to put it is that, mathematically, if you take the entire present spending on welfare, and increase the denominator (splitting it among "everyone"), then on average those who are currently beneficiaries would get less (same numerator, bigger denominator). That is a mathematical certainty, unless the bulk of welfare spending does not reach the ostensible beneficiaries (due to admin bloat, fraud, whatever) and you also assume these problems would disappear with UBI (my order-of-magnitude estimates assume negligible admin costs for UBI). I'm not seeing any reason to believe that an UBI that isn't peanuts even for current welfare recipients can be set up unless you have something like Abu Dhabi's revenue-to-population ratio or don't care about bringing about financial ruin (the Venezuelan approach).

Current welfare programs have cutoffs that make the marginal tax rate on billionaires look low. It's called the "poverty trap". Consolidate and make a non idiotic marginal "loss of benefits" rate -- equivalent to the marginal tax rate, and the incentive to not work will be lessened. It will pay to work.


Yes! This is absolutely the point of UBI. In addition, because of the "loss of benefits" trap, people on welfare (or disability, or any other program with eligibility requirements) now are tempted to increase their income by off-the-books, cash-only work that is unregulated, and often unsafe. This kind of work would be unnecessary with a UBI.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on December 02, 2021, 09:52:22 AM
I'm getting confused.

Is UBI a Canadian program?

Or are Canadian posters discussing it in comparison with a US program I'm unfamiliar with?

Or is it a welfare amelioration proposal from an author who sees it as a more broadly-applicable program?

M. (...lost in the Northern Hemisphere...)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on December 02, 2021, 10:17:07 AM
Quote from: mamselle on December 02, 2021, 09:52:22 AM
I'm getting confused.

Is UBI a Canadian program?

Or are Canadian posters discussing it in comparison with a US program I'm unfamiliar with?

Or is it a welfare amelioration proposal from an author who sees it as a more broadly-applicable program?

M. (...lost in the Northern Hemisphere...)

UBI means Universal Basic Income. The idea is to replace the hodge-podge of welfare programs with a single payment. That payment would taper off gradually when one earns income, so it always pays to work, in sharp contrast to most means tested benefits. One of the Democratic primary presidential contenders, Andrew Yang, propagated it.

It is the same principle as the Negative Income Tax, first proposed by Milton Friedman in the 1960's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on December 02, 2021, 11:01:14 AM
Ah.

Thanks.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 02, 2021, 01:11:34 PM
Quote from: mamselle on December 02, 2021, 09:52:22 AM
I'm getting confused.

Is UBI a Canadian program?



The pandemic has made it a matter of discussion in lots of countries. Although there was a pilot program in Dauphin, Manitoba in the 70's.

So I don't have a specific detailed program that I'm riffing on. One of the fascinating things about the idea is that it has support on both the left and right, and understandably so, since the existing system in many places is expensive but still often ineffective.

My vision would be one that is universal; i.e. would apply to every adult, but would replace *all of the government income support programs now, with an adjustment to the tax rates to make the whole thing revenue-neutral. The only difference between how poor and wealthy people would experience it is that poor people would get cheques in the mail, while rich people would just have it reduce their tax bill.


*Whether it's unemployment insurance, welfare payments, disability benefits, maternity or parental leave, or old age pension payments, they all essentially amount to the same thing- compensation for peoples' lack of employment income.
(Since I'm in Canada, healthcare is entirely separate, so it isn't affected. I don't really know how Medicare/Medicaid work in the US. And in Canada maternity/parental leave is government-financed from employment insurance premiums, even though some employers will top it up.)


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on December 03, 2021, 08:55:56 AM
Finland had an experiment, too, recently. But it was money on top of existing welfare benefits they were getting.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Stockmann on December 03, 2021, 12:31:47 PM
If more people are eligible for welfare payments (even if it doesn't rise to "universal" levels), then the cost of welfare goes up unless payments are cut (the "peanuts" UBI scenario). The arithmetic doesn't change regardless of incentives or disincentives to work - and I agree poorly thought-out rules can create incentives for illegal work/disincentives for legal work (which is why I think time limits works better than means testing, and perhaps tying the amount and/or duration of payments to income tax paid).
The experience of places with de facto UBI is that a lot of people just cease to work - hence the reliance of Gulf states on immigrant labor, from maids to chefs to senior engineers to construction workers. The European welfare experience is much the same - for instance, pre-Brexit there was at least anecdotal evidence of places in northern England in particular with lots of young British adults living off the dole and businesses bringing in construction workers from Poland and farm workers from Romania. This was not illegal immigration, so it wasn't just a way of evading legal labor rules, but "new EU" citizens were initially ineligible for welfare payments.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on December 03, 2021, 12:49:29 PM
QuoteThe arithmetic doesn't change regardless of incentives or disincentives to work... 


The size of the average payment depends on us. That arithmetic we control. We can be generous or miserly, as we wish.

The incentive to work depends on the margin -- how much of an earned dollar the UBI or welfare recipient gets to keep.

To finance what some think the right way of handling the UBI is, namely everybody gets one, obviously taxes would have to rise pay those who currently do not receive welfare payments. But as has been pointed out, that would be a wash for middle class and up, and would depend on the tax code in the final analysis.

Let not the sum of UBI, whatever it turned out to be, distract from the property that it's a way of making some people better off without necessarily making anyone worse off.



Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 03, 2021, 12:58:16 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on December 03, 2021, 12:31:47 PM
If more people are eligible for welfare payments (even if it doesn't rise to "universal" levels), then the cost of welfare goes up unless payments are cut (the "peanuts" UBI scenario). The arithmetic doesn't change regardless of incentives or disincentives to work

This assumes the arithmetic doesn't involve any changes to the tax system. For instance, in Canada there is a "basic personal exemption" of $12k or something like that; income below that doesn't get taxed. With a UBI, it would make sense to eliminate that. So everyone gets the UBI, but every dollar of earned income is taxed.

The obvious point with a UBI is to adjust the tax system so that above some level, the UBI doesn't raise anyone's income above what it is now. (But again, for the sake of simplicity of  operation, everyone gets it; it's just that people with a high enough income will just opt for the UBI to be deducted from their taxes payable, rather than receiving a cheque in the mail.)

Quote


- and I agree poorly thought-out rules can create incentives for illegal work/disincentives for legal work (which is why I think time limits works better than means testing, and perhaps tying the amount and/or duration of payments to income tax paid).



Time limits still don't address the threshold effect. If a person on benefits gets an employment opportunity, unless it's high enough to make them better off than benefits do, there's no point. With a UBI, a part-time job is worth taking, and it starts paying taxes to offset the cost of the UBI. Seasonal work is also worth taking with a UBI. Someone with a disability who wants to try easing back into work can do so with a UBI. A new parent who has been on leave after the birth of a child can also try part-time work.

Time limits just continue the "all-or-nothing" problem of the current system, only with a doomsday clock.


Quote
The experience of places with de facto UBI is that a lot of people just cease to work - hence the reliance of Gulf states on immigrant labor, from maids to chefs to senior engineers to construction workers. The European welfare experience is much the same - for instance, pre-Brexit there was at least anecdotal evidence of places in northern England in particular with lots of young British adults living off the dole and businesses bringing in construction workers from Poland and farm workers from Romania. This was not illegal immigration, so it wasn't just a way of evading legal labor rules, but "new EU" citizens were initially ineligible for welfare payments.

Again, many of these problems are because it's all-or-nothing; unless work makes enough money to replace benefits, it's not worth doing at all. The UBI changes this completely so every dollar earned makes someone better off. (And every dollar earned generates taxes.)


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on December 03, 2021, 01:21:44 PM
QuoteSo everyone gets the UBI, but every dollar of earned income is taxed.

That's the Negative Income Tax [NIT] version, the simplest, and the one I like best. UBI has a more felicitous name, but that's all. :-)

It's important to get the arithmetic irrelevancy out of the way:

Create an NIT such that the total money spent on welfare remains the same, and just for the sake of illustration, is given only to those people already on welfare. Those paying for welfare are no worse off. Those receiving welfare cannot be worse off, for they are receiving the same sum, by assumption. Some will now work, for it pays. They will be better off. Some of those may even pay income taxes which they didn't do before. Makes the rest of us better off.

Worriers worry that not testing for "need" will turn current employees into lazy people who don't work, adding to the cost of welfare or UBI. Well, some not currently on welfare may well reduce their work hours [as a group, single mothers come to mind]. But, others will increase theirs. I can't prove it's a wash, and I don't care.  Am certainly not worried.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on December 03, 2021, 02:09:01 PM
Quote from: dismalist on December 03, 2021, 01:21:44 PM
QuoteSo everyone gets the UBI, but every dollar of earned income is taxed.

That's the Negative Income Tax [NIT] version, the simplest, and the one I like best. UBI has a more felicitous name, but that's all. :-)

It's important to get the arithmetic irrelevancy out of the way:

Create an NIT such that the total money spent on welfare remains the same, and just for the sake of illustration, is given only to those people already on welfare. Those paying for welfare are no worse off. Those receiving welfare cannot be worse off, for they are receiving the same sum, by assumption. Some will now work, for it pays. They will be better off. Some of those may even pay income taxes which they didn't do before. Makes the rest of us better off.

Worriers worry that not testing for "need" will turn current employees into lazy people who don't work, adding to the cost of welfare or UBI. Well, some not currently on welfare may well reduce their work hours [as a group, single mothers come to mind]. But, others will increase theirs. I can't prove it's a wash, and I don't care.  Am certainly not worried.

Upon reflection, my last paragraph is wrong. Everyone now working has already escaped the trap part of the poverty trap with their labor. This shows what they prefer. There is no need to worry about increasing the welfare rolls by instituting a UBI.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on December 03, 2021, 02:23:31 PM
What dismalist just said is also, IMO, one reason why so many jobs are currently unfilled. It especially applies to us 65+ers. A huge chunk of the population has hit retirement age, and simply doesn't want to work that hard any more, and people are frankly fed up with hours and hassles. Two cases in point: long haul trucking pays pretty well, but in part due to deregulation the marginal benefit has gone down significantly since the 1970s. The real push for driverless vehicles in in this sector of the economy, because the companies can't hire enough drivers. The other is a job that was a go to for many people, which is school bus driver. I could walk into any district in the Midwest today and be trained and driving as much as I wanted in a month (hired tomorrow, "fully" trained in a month). The hassle/annoyance factor of that job is not compensated enough at the margins to appeal to the older people at this time. Both of these sectors have been hit hard as well by the dramatic increase in local delivery drivers. We now have TWO Amazon distribution centers and a Walmart distribution center in my area. Plus FedEx, UPS etc. Shorter days, better conditions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 04, 2021, 09:14:23 AM
Quote from: dismalist on December 03, 2021, 01:21:44 PM
QuoteSo everyone gets the UBI, but every dollar of earned income is taxed.

That's the Negative Income Tax [NIT] version, the simplest, and the one I like best. UBI has a more felicitous name, but that's all. :-)

It's important to get the arithmetic irrelevancy out of the way:

Create an NIT such that the total money spent on welfare remains the same, and just for the sake of illustration, is given only to those people already on welfare.

What rule determines who would ever be eligible in the future?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on December 04, 2021, 10:19:00 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 04, 2021, 09:14:23 AM
Quote from: dismalist on December 03, 2021, 01:21:44 PM
QuoteSo everyone gets the UBI, but every dollar of earned income is taxed.

That's the Negative Income Tax [NIT] version, the simplest, and the one I like best. UBI has a more felicitous name, but that's all. :-)

It's important to get the arithmetic irrelevancy out of the way:

Create an NIT such that the total money spent on welfare remains the same, and just for the sake of illustration, is given only to those people already on welfare.

What rule determines who would ever be eligible in the future?

'Twould be a law like any other.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 04, 2021, 02:38:23 PM
College of Saint Rose continues its downward spiral: http://www.strosechronicle.com/fresh/doors-close-as-numbers-fall/ (http://www.strosechronicle.com/fresh/doors-close-as-numbers-fall/).

University of Central Oklahoma has massive budget deficit and faculty layoffs are likely: https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/education/2021/12/03/university-central-oklahoma-edmond-uco-enrollment-layoffs-financial-shortfall/8842060002/ (https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/education/2021/12/03/university-central-oklahoma-edmond-uco-enrollment-layoffs-financial-shortfall/8842060002/).

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Stockmann on December 05, 2021, 11:24:31 AM
Quote from: dismalist on December 03, 2021, 01:21:44 PM
It's important to get the arithmetic irrelevancy out of the way:

Create an NIT such that the total money spent on welfare remains the same, and just for the sake of illustration, is given only to those people already on welfare....

So not universal at all, then. Perhaps existing welfare programs could be made more efficient by consolidating them in some ways, yes, but that has nothing to do with UBI. Regarding "arithmetic" it doesn't escape my notice that it's only me here, not any of the proponents of UBI, who is crunching any numbers whatsoever (the fear of all sums? - the proponents don't come up with even a ballpark amount, perhaps because any amount would either be completely unrealistically expensive or would be a lot less than Americans on welfare are getting), rather confirming that it's an innumerate idea. The proponents of UBI are, on the other hand, moving the goalposts - first it was to be paid by existing welfare spending (althoug nobody clarified which welfare programs would disappear - would Medicaid? Head Start?), then by taxing all income, abolishing personal allowances, and now it's not "universal" at all.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on December 05, 2021, 11:45:17 AM
Quote from: Stockmann on December 05, 2021, 11:24:31 AM
Quote from: dismalist on December 03, 2021, 01:21:44 PM
It's important to get the arithmetic irrelevancy out of the way:

Create an NIT such that the total money spent on welfare remains the same, and just for the sake of illustration, is given only to those people already on welfare....

So not universal at all, then. Perhaps existing welfare programs could be made more efficient by consolidating them in some ways, yes, but that has nothing to do with UBI. Regarding "arithmetic" it doesn't escape my notice that it's only me here, not any of the proponents of UBI, who is crunching any numbers whatsoever (the fear of all sums? - the proponents don't come up with even a ballpark amount, perhaps because any amount would either be completely unrealistically expensive or would be a lot less than Americans on welfare are getting), rather confirming that it's an innumerate idea. The proponents of UBI are, on the other hand, moving the goalposts - first it was to be paid by existing welfare spending (althoug nobody clarified which welfare programs would disappear - would Medicaid? Head Start?), then by taxing all income, abolishing personal allowances, and now it's not "universal" at all.

No, no, the restriction is imposed in the mind just to get the arithmetic and the incentives separate and straight. It's a Gedankenexperiment.

The result is that at the present level of aid, no one is made worse off and some are made better off, as I said above.

If any one wishes to change the level of aid, get a law passed. Personally, I'm on the somewhat generous side, but I know that not everybody is.

And yes, which programs disappear matters. I'm guessing Medicaid and Social Security should stay, but all the rest should go.

Universal? That's just a felicitous name. For comparison start with the Negative Income Tax. People would get their transfer, but start paying taxes on the first dollar of earned income. [That's what I've been describing, with welfare payment held constant.] The UBI could be the same, but some people seem to have something less taxable in mind. People would only pay taxes on earnings above some value. Well, that requires an overall tax increase!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on December 05, 2021, 02:12:15 PM
Ok, I'm still confused, though, about how those issues relate to schools in dire straits.

Do places using such programs see them affecting enrollment, or adjunct availability or something?

Someone new trying to get direct information about a college they're considering working at (or leaving) might want to know how this dangling econ discussion ties to the thread topic they expected to find helpful.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on December 05, 2021, 02:16:47 PM
Quote from: mamselle on December 05, 2021, 02:12:15 PM
Ok, I'm still confused, though, about how those issues relate to schools in dire straits.

Do places using such programs see them affecting enrollment, or adjunct availability or something?

Someone new trying to get direct information about a college they're considering working at (or leaving) might want to know how this dangling econ discussion ties to the thread topic they expected to find helpful.

M.

No, nothing, Mamselle. Not one penny. :-)

This discussion is important but has nothing to do with the title of this thread.

I've been wanting to start a new thread, but I can't seem to get posts over to a new thread in a felicitous manner.

Let me try it in an infelicitous manner!

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 06, 2021, 07:51:30 AM
Quote from: spork on December 04, 2021, 02:38:23 PM
College of Saint Rose continues its downward spiral: http://www.strosechronicle.com/fresh/doors-close-as-numbers-fall/ (http://www.strosechronicle.com/fresh/doors-close-as-numbers-fall/).

University of Central Oklahoma has massive budget deficit and faculty layoffs are likely: https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/education/2021/12/03/university-central-oklahoma-edmond-uco-enrollment-layoffs-financial-shortfall/8842060002/ (https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/education/2021/12/03/university-central-oklahoma-edmond-uco-enrollment-layoffs-financial-shortfall/8842060002/).

Thank you for getting this thread back on track, spork.  Although it's unfortunate that there is more bad financial news.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 06, 2021, 08:12:04 AM
A concerning quote from a departing student in the Saint Rose article:


Quote"It became clear that Saint Rose didn't care about their students or their faculty; it, unfortunately, no longer felt like a place where I could grow and thrive like I had in the past. The announcement that they were cutting music and art programs came shortly after my decision to take time off from school and definitely solidified my decision to not return to Saint Rose. The Saint Rose administration has demonstrated time and time again that it does not value the Saint Rose community and its needs." said Saga Stranden. Stranden studied English at Saint Rose until they transferred to SUNY New Paltz following a gap year.


Maybe that's not entirely fair.  The administrators would undoubtedly say that they were forced by circumstances to make hard choices that they would otherwise not have made.  Fair or not, that sort of perception is going to hurt their recruitment and enrollment going forward.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on December 06, 2021, 09:43:30 AM
Student comments need to be taken with a grain of salt. How would the institution make students feel valued? Can an institution make painful changes without some student making that type of remark? This is why I dislike the easy quote without providing context.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on December 07, 2021, 08:51:28 PM
I've gone back a few pages, but I don't see this posted. If I'm duplicating, apologies.

A fake college, St. Sebastian's, has been instituted in Florida, sought student football players, made one of them, at least, pay their coach cash to satisfy part of their tuition bill, then dismantled the team--which had too few helmets, insufficient players, and almost no team support staff (i.e., just one coach). Teachers were unpaid and students were locked out of classes.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvFtda3ZpjE

Because it's categorized as a religious school, the state's education department is saying it has no jurisdiction for students seeking redress.

To top it off, the address on the letterhead is a community center. 

Crazy.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on December 08, 2021, 06:26:05 AM
I'd say this qualifies as dire: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/12/08/ohio-valley-university-will-close
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 08, 2021, 06:39:14 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on December 08, 2021, 06:26:05 AM
I'd say this qualifies as dire: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/12/08/ohio-valley-university-will-close

From the article:
Quote
The university is working on a plan to help students finish their educations elsewhere. Enrollment has dipped below 200.

I can't even wrap my head around how this place operated. How many faculty in most places don't teach more than 200 students a year? Even if they only had one degree program for everyone, this would still have a ridiculous faculty/student ratio.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 08, 2021, 10:08:21 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 08, 2021, 06:39:14 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on December 08, 2021, 06:26:05 AM
I'd say this qualifies as dire: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/12/08/ohio-valley-university-will-close

From the article:
Quote
The university is working on a plan to help students finish their educations elsewhere. Enrollment has dipped below 200.

Apparently the registrars office is understaffed, and unable to send transcripts. What would be the appropriate staffing level for a "University" that size?

I can't even wrap my head around how this place operated. How many faculty in most places don't teach more than 200 students a year? Even if they only had one degree program for everyone, this would still have a ridiculous faculty/student ratio.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on December 08, 2021, 11:06:51 AM
Maybe 20 faculty and 40-50 staff 9some of whom are contracted out) ?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 08, 2021, 03:08:01 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 08, 2021, 06:39:14 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on December 08, 2021, 06:26:05 AM
I'd say this qualifies as dire: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/12/08/ohio-valley-university-will-close

From the article:
Quote
The university is working on a plan to help students finish their educations elsewhere. Enrollment has dipped below 200.

I can't even wrap my head around how this place operated. How many faculty in most places don't teach more than 200 students a year? Even if they only had one degree program for everyone, this would still have a ridiculous faculty/student ratio.

My parents met at a two-year school that was about that size--in the early 1960s!  It now has over 880 students, including a large non-traditional contingent.  The school's staff directory contains about 180 names--faculty, staff, and admin.  Maybe half are faculty, mostly adjunct.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on December 08, 2021, 05:03:13 PM
Form 990s show Ohio Valley University running deficits every year since the 2008 recession, except for 2013-2016, when contributions accounted for nearly half of total revenue.

Many of these schools with fewer than 1,000 students don't generate enough money from operations to be viable.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on December 08, 2021, 06:38:07 PM
Quote from: mamselle on December 07, 2021, 08:51:28 PM
I've gone back a few pages, but I don't see this posted. If I'm duplicating, apologies.

A fake college, St. Sebastian's, has been instituted in Florida, sought student football players, made one of them, at least, pay their coach cash to satisfy part of their tuition bill, then dismantled the team--which had too few helmets, insufficient players, and almost no team support staff (i.e., just one coach). Teachers were unpaid and students were locked out of classes.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvFtda3ZpjE

Because it's categorized as a religious school, the state's education department is saying it has no jurisdiction for students seeking redress.

To top it off, the address on the letterhead is a community center. 

Crazy.

M.

So, Trump U with a football team?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on December 08, 2021, 08:31:17 PM
180 for 880 students is just about right. My school is maybe slightly bigger than that and has closer to 300, but I think that a lot are contracted staff for dinning services. I.e., don't work directly for the college. Direct employees are closer to 200-250.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on December 08, 2021, 11:51:34 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 08, 2021, 06:38:07 PM
Quote from: mamselle on December 07, 2021, 08:51:28 PM
I've gone back a few pages, but I don't see this posted. If I'm duplicating, apologies.

A fake college, St. Sebastian's, has been instituted in Florida, sought student football players, made one of them, at least, pay their coach cash to satisfy part of their tuition bill, then dismantled the team--which had too few helmets, insufficient players, and almost no team support staff (i.e., just one coach). Teachers were unpaid and students were locked out of classes.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvFtda3ZpjE

Because it's categorized as a religious school, the state's education department is saying it has no jurisdiction for students seeking redress.

To top it off, the address on the letterhead is a community center. 

Crazy.

M.

So, Trump U with a football team?

Something like that, yeah...

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on December 20, 2021, 07:44:22 PM

William Patterson University is in a world of hurt.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/12/20/william-paterson-plans-lay-100-full-time-professors
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on December 21, 2021, 04:30:34 PM
Pooor, pooor, pooooor St. Sebastian: those kids are being soooo mean....

A follow-up:

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJoLjCCumaA

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on December 23, 2021, 06:22:12 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on December 20, 2021, 07:44:22 PM

William Patterson University is in a world of hurt.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/12/20/william-paterson-plans-lay-100-full-time-professors

40% of FT faculty over three years is 0_o.

I have a friend there who just went on parental leave. I hope they have something to come back to.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 27, 2021, 07:46:46 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on December 20, 2021, 07:44:22 PM

William Patterson University is in a world of hurt.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/12/20/william-paterson-plans-lay-100-full-time-professors

Interesting to note that they've had tens of millions of dollars' worth of new facilities in the past decade, even as enrollment has gone nowhere but down.  Looks like an example of the state giving a state-supported university lots of pork-barrel funding for construction, yet not being willing to support academics.  The public-institution equivalent of those private schools that only get large donations for the purpose of building new stuff, not for keeping the place running.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 27, 2021, 11:33:14 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 27, 2021, 07:46:46 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on December 20, 2021, 07:44:22 PM

William Patterson University is in a world of hurt.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/12/20/william-paterson-plans-lay-100-full-time-professors

Interesting to note that they've had tens of millions of dollars' worth of new facilities in the past decade, even as enrollment has gone nowhere but down.  Looks like an example of the state giving a state-supported university lots of pork-barrel funding for construction, yet not being willing to support academics.  The public-institution equivalent of those private schools that only get large donations for the purpose of building new stuff, not for keeping the place running.

Our last uni built new dorms while we were there and instituted a wage freeze.  Their enrollment is now down by almost 3% and they just fired their first tenured prof.

Our current uni has reportedly gained millions in a capital campaign and they have laid off more than half our support staff, several profs, done retirement buyouts on a number more, let lines die, and dropped a dozen majors.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 28, 2021, 09:05:52 AM
Quote from: mamselle on December 21, 2021, 04:30:34 PM
Pooor, pooor, pooooor St. Sebastian: those kids are being soooo mean....

A follow-up:

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJoLjCCumaA

M.

I'd never even heard of this place before!  Sounds like either an outright fraud or (just possibly) the work of some enthusiasts who had absolutely no idea what they were doing.  Either way, you have to feel for the students who have gotten caught up in it.  At least there weren't all that many of them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on December 28, 2021, 03:40:26 PM
Quote from: apl68 on December 28, 2021, 09:05:52 AM
Quote from: mamselle on December 21, 2021, 04:30:34 PM
Pooor, pooor, pooooor St. Sebastian: those kids are being soooo mean....

A follow-up:

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJoLjCCumaA

M.

I'd never even heard of this place before!  Sounds like either an outright fraud or (just possibly) the work of some enthusiasts who had absolutely no idea what they were doing.  Either way, you have to feel for the students who have gotten caught up in it.  At least there weren't all that many of them.

Agreed; I have to say fraud.

Why else would you 'borrow' the address of a local community center for your letterhead address without asking them first if it's OK to do so...?

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on January 07, 2022, 09:09:28 AM
IHE: Fewer Graduates Go Straight to College (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/01/07/fewer-high-school-graduates-enroll-college)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: seibaatgung on January 11, 2022, 02:40:02 PM
Does anyone have a list of law schools that have shut down recently?  Law school is quite a bit less necessary than undergrad. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 04, 2022, 12:57:50 PM
The Chancellor of Henderson State University, having managed to paper over shortfalls using stimulus money, is now proposing a declaration of financial exigency.  From a communication to all faculty and staff:

QuoteThe reasons for this proposal are many. If we do not immediately change course, we currently project HSU will
incur a cash shortfall of $12.5 million between now and June 30, 2022, which means that we will be unable to
service our debts, pay our bills and have sufficient funds for payroll. The current projections beyond June 30,
absent significant changes, are even more grim. Our current budget includes $6 million from the federal Higher
Education Emergency Relief Fund, and unfortunately those funds will not be available for the 2022-2023 school
year. Our current long-term debt has grown from $14 million to $78 million, requiring annual debt service
payments of $6.9 million. We have no funds available in financial reserves, including a $6 million loan from the
State of Arkansas.

Effective on February 28, 2022, each employee on our campus, with the exception of those who are not funded
by state funds, will have to take one furlough day per week. We are also implementing immediate salary
reductions for certain academic administrators on our campus. As we attempt to redefine the scope and role of
HSU as an institution of higher education, we are going to make changes to our management structure to ensure
that our resources are allocated appropriately. Sadly, this process will ultimately involve program elimination
and a reallocation of resources into the programs that best serve our students and community. The level of
permanent reduction in our overall annual expenditures for FY 2023 and beyond will be significant. With
today's proposal, that process will begin, and I look forward to working with the Faculty Senate and the campus
leadership to expeditiously move this process forward.


https://arkadelphian.com/2022/02/03/henderson-announces-furloughs/


I imagine the programs that they eliminate will end up being the usual suspects.  HSU will in all likelihood go from being the state's sole public liberal arts college to just another compass-point school with a handful of vocational majors.  Very sad to see.  I never went there, but I have connections there and remember what it used to be like.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on February 04, 2022, 01:31:36 PM
I was just talking to a prof on Reddit about a 20% reduction in hu's salary based on "one day a week furloughs."

Obviously this person was not happy.

I suggested doing 20% less work.

I love the "I look forward to working with the Faculty Senate and the campus
leadership to expeditiously move this process forward" statement.  I guess admin have to make statements such as this, tone deafness and all.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 04, 2022, 04:04:19 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on February 04, 2022, 01:31:36 PM
I was just talking to a prof on Reddit about a 20% reduction in hu's salary based on "one day a week furloughs."

Obviously this person was not happy.

I suggested doing 20% less work.

I love the "I look forward to working with the Faculty Senate and the campus
leadership to expeditiously move this process forward" statement.  I guess admin have to make statements such as this, tone deafness and all.

The only effective remedy is to find that the Faculty Senate cannot achive a quorum because too many Senators are now working elsewhere for considerably better pay.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on February 04, 2022, 10:09:45 PM
Quote from: Hibush on February 04, 2022, 04:04:19 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on February 04, 2022, 01:31:36 PM
I was just talking to a prof on Reddit about a 20% reduction in hu's salary based on "one day a week furloughs."

Obviously this person was not happy.

I suggested doing 20% less work.

I love the "I look forward to working with the Faculty Senate and the campus
leadership to expeditiously move this process forward" statement.  I guess admin have to make statements such as this, tone deafness and all.

The only effective remedy is to find that the Faculty Senate cannot achive a quorum because too many Senators are now working elsewhere for considerably better pay.

The senators will be moonlighting at their side hustle.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: clean on February 05, 2022, 02:00:29 PM
I hope that HSU can resolve the issues.  AS bad as a 20% pay cut would be, it is certainly better than a 100% pay cut.  Certainly, some will soon be suffering the 100% pay cut anyway.   
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 06, 2022, 06:04:00 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on February 04, 2022, 01:31:36 PM
I was just talking to a prof on Reddit about a 20% reduction in hu's salary based on "one day a week furloughs."

Obviously this person was not happy.

I suggested doing 20% less work.


Wouldn't the "one day a week furlough" basically imply that faculty aren't working one day a week; i.e. they wouldn't be able to teach, attend meetings, have office hours, etc.?

At the very least scheduling would have to be done so that everyone has a day with no presence on campus, in-person or virtual, required or expected.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 06, 2022, 06:37:42 AM
Quote from: clean on February 05, 2022, 02:00:29 PM
I hope that HSU can resolve the issues.  AS bad as a 20% pay cut would be, it is certainly better than a 100% pay cut.  Certainly, some will soon be suffering the 100% pay cut anyway.

The message from administration makes it clear that the reduction after June 30 will be significantly larger. They are beyond "financial exigency."

The letter is also unambiguous about cutting programs that are not making money. Any faculty who suspect they are in such a program should be getting out now. Never mind working 20% less, the focus should be on finding employment even if that means cutting the actual effort by a lot more than 20%.

With the current--but fleetingly--strong job market, the good jobs will not teaching in undersubscibed majors elsewhere. That seems to be a constraint that people place on themselves that creates unneccessary hardship.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pondering on March 11, 2022, 11:06:37 AM
The College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at Iowa State is imposing huge cuts on all its departments - up to 25% in some cases: https://www.inside.iastate.edu/article/2022/02/24/lasbudget

For the effects on the History Department, see this thread: https://twitter.com/HistoryBrian/status/1502303314960072708
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 11, 2022, 04:24:39 PM
Quote from: pondering on March 11, 2022, 11:06:37 AM
The College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at Iowa State is imposing huge cuts on all its departments - up to 25% in some cases: https://www.inside.iastate.edu/article/2022/02/24/lasbudget

For the effects on the History Department, see this thread: https://twitter.com/HistoryBrian/status/1502303314960072708

"effort to reimagine programs"

What a stupid euphemism. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on March 11, 2022, 04:33:48 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 11, 2022, 04:24:39 PM
Quote from: pondering on March 11, 2022, 11:06:37 AM
The College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at Iowa State is imposing huge cuts on all its departments - up to 25% in some cases: https://www.inside.iastate.edu/article/2022/02/24/lasbudget

For the effects on the History Department, see this thread: https://twitter.com/HistoryBrian/status/1502303314960072708

"effort to reimagine de-imagine programs"

What a stupid euphemism.

There. Fixed that for you.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 11, 2022, 05:21:08 PM
"demand for courses that satisfy general education requirements has decreased over the last decade, as most students now arrive on campus having already earned a significant number of college credits in high school."

This trend, and the policies that drive it, in Iowa was apparent years ago. What curricular adjustments have they been making? Underenrolled classes are a pretty obvious manifestation of the shifting demand.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on March 11, 2022, 08:01:38 PM
In the twitter feed, shade was thrown at the departments that "really" caused the deficit. I'd be curious to know who they are. Since it's arts and sciences, I doubt that all departments are losing enrollment. Would they happen to be the science majors that are well enrolled but have expensive labs? Or departments that have grown successfully and are now pushing for new TT lines to meet demand?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 12, 2022, 04:43:09 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on March 11, 2022, 08:01:38 PM
In the twitter feed, shade was thrown at the departments that "really" caused the deficit. I'd be curious to know who they are. Since it's arts and sciences, I doubt that all departments are losing enrollment. Would they happen to be the science majors that are well enrolled but have expensive labs? Or departments that have grown successfully and are now pushing for new TT lines to meet demand?

It was the gened requirements that students are doing in high school AP or community college. English and chemistry. History and calculus.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 19, 2022, 04:09:41 AM
Quote from: Hibush on December 08, 2021, 10:08:21 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 08, 2021, 06:39:14 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on December 08, 2021, 06:26:05 AM
I'd say this qualifies as dire: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/12/08/ohio-valley-university-will-close

From the article:
Quote
The university is working on a plan to help students finish their educations elsewhere. Enrollment has dipped below 200.

Apparently the registrars office is understaffed, and unable to send transcripts. What would be the appropriate staffing level for a "University" that size?

I can't even wrap my head around how this place operated. How many faculty in most places don't teach more than 200 students a year? Even if they only had one degree program for everyone, this would still have a ridiculous faculty/student ratio.

CHE has a post mortem (https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-money-pit).

The blame goes squarely on a board that was completely resistant to dealing with reality. "Up until the very end, OVU's top brass never lost faith that their institution could be saved."

There were so many mistakes it is incredible. They thought they could save the place by selling their coal to the devil, but even that backfired when they tried to do it twice.

"Absent from Ohio Valley's 97-page bankruptcy petition (https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21237351/bankruptcy-petition.pdf) are the names of its former employees and the back wages owed them." The leadership really went out of its way to hurt those who were most loyal to the institution.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 19, 2022, 07:43:18 AM
So, in the 1990s a two-year college with a couple hundred students decided to go on a building spree in an effort to transform itself into a four-year school, and rebranded itself as a "university."  They spent the next decade building and borrowing millions of dollars.  In 2007 this school with fewer than 700 students borrowed $17 million with what sounds like a crackpot industrial startup for collateral.  They spent two decades robbing Peter to pay Paul, until they finally ran out of Peters.

You have to wonder what possessed the trustees of this tiny school to imagine that it made sense for them to undertake such a massive, debt-fueled expansion in the 1990s.  A lot of schools were doing that during the 1990s, of course, but this was an extreme case.  It's a sad business for everybody--students, staff, and donors who could have put their resources to much better use.

I'm reminded of the Gospel account of the temptation of Jesus.  At one point the Devil urged Jesus to demonstrate his faith by jumping from the pinnacle of the Temple.  He justified it by quoting Scripture to the effect that God would send angels to protect his chosen ones.  Jesus replied that Scripture also says "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test."  There's such a thing as stepping out in faith, but then there's also such a thing as putting God to the test by jumping off the Temple and expecting angels to catch you.  Sounds like OVU's trustees were guilty of the latter.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on March 19, 2022, 10:36:19 AM
OVU was definitely a Johnny-come-lately to the Ohio academic scene.

I grew up in Columbus and went to OSU, and I've never heard of it from friends before or since (and at least one person in our HS class went to Antioch, which then was the lowest-level school you could apply to; you were practically guaranteed admission).

I'm also still in touch with colleagues there and give conference papers once or twice a year in the medieval field and have never, ever heard an academic research paper from there, or seen work by anyone there in any serious format, arts, humanities, or otherwise.

So, they didn't cast a very long or deep shadow, ever, it seems to me.

Still, RIP

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 22, 2022, 10:07:00 AM
Quote from: mamselle on March 19, 2022, 10:36:19 AM
OVU was definitely a Johnny-come-lately to the Ohio academic scene.

I grew up in Columbus and went to OSU, and I've never heard of it from friends before or since (and at least one person in our HS class went to Antioch, which then was the lowest-level school you could apply to; you were practically guaranteed admission).

I'm also still in touch with colleagues there and give conference papers once or twice a year in the medieval field and have never, ever heard an academic research paper from there, or seen work by anyone there in any serious format, arts, humanities, or otherwise.

So, they didn't cast a very long or deep shadow, ever, it seems to me.

Still, RIP

M.

My parents met in the early 1960s at a tiny, denominationally-affiliated two-year college in Arkansas.  It was, and is, about the size of Ohio Valley University.  Or rather, about the size OVU was at its peak.  But they never seem to have had delusions about trying to be anything other than a two-year institution.  OVU could perhaps be usefully serving students today if they hadn't tried to go big.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sonoamused on March 22, 2022, 12:58:38 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 19, 2022, 07:43:18 AM
So, in the 1990s a two-year college with a couple hundred students decided to go on a building spree in an effort to transform itself into a four-year school, and rebranded itself as a "university."  They spent the next decade building and borrowing millions of dollars.  In 2007 this school with fewer than 700 students borrowed $17 million with what sounds like a crackpot industrial startup for collateral.  They spent two decades robbing Peter to pay Paul, until they finally ran out of Peters.

You have to wonder what possessed the trustees of this tiny school to imagine that it made sense for them to undertake such a massive, debt-fueled expansion in the 1990s.  A lot of schools were doing that during the 1990s, of course, but this was an extreme case.  It's a sad business for everybody--students, staff, and donors who could have put their resources to much better use.

I'm reminded of the Gospel account of the temptation of Jesus.  At one point the Devil urged Jesus to demonstrate his faith by jumping from the pinnacle of the Temple.  He justified it by quoting Scripture to the effect that God would send angels to protect his chosen ones.  Jesus replied that Scripture also says "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test."  There's such a thing as stepping out in faith, but then there's also such a thing as putting God to the test by jumping off the Temple and expecting angels to catch you.  Sounds like OVU's trustees were guilty of the latter.

it sounds like in some cases what possessed the trustees was greed.   They were giving the school high interest rate person loans!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on March 22, 2022, 01:04:37 PM
I strongly suspected something like that in the recent demise of a local seminary. The trustees gaslighted the students and faculty, putting them into committees to offer plans by which to "save the school."

Meanwhile, they had to have been in conversations that resulted in the near-immediate sale of the buildings and properties to a 'younger' school that was already renting some of the facilities. The sale of the remnant went though so quickly, it must have been in the final planning stages when they set the academic folks to their ill-fated pseudo-tasks.

The interim president resigned over their bad-faith actions and they had to bring a very retired dean back to oversee the campus while they closed it down.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: AmLitHist on March 31, 2022, 01:04:39 PM
Lincoln College, in Lincoln, IL, to close (https://www.wglt.org/local-news/2022-03-30/lincoln-college-to-close-permanently-on-may-13) in May.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 31, 2022, 02:05:26 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on March 31, 2022, 01:04:39 PM
Lincoln College, in Lincoln, IL, to close (https://www.wglt.org/local-news/2022-03-30/lincoln-college-to-close-permanently-on-may-13) in May.

While Covid hurt a lot, it appears the coup de grace was a cyberattack. Like many small or financially strapped schools, this one must have had limited resources to prevent or fix the attack because they system was down for a month and a half. No access to anything needed to operate the school or to communicate electronically!

How many other schools are vulnerable to such a disruption?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on March 31, 2022, 02:42:23 PM
That's just plain sick.

I hate hackers.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: biop_grad on April 01, 2022, 04:30:12 AM
Quote from: Hibush on March 31, 2022, 02:05:26 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on March 31, 2022, 01:04:39 PM
Lincoln College, in Lincoln, IL, to close (https://www.wglt.org/local-news/2022-03-30/lincoln-college-to-close-permanently-on-may-13) in May.

While Covid hurt a lot, it appears the coup de grace was a cyberattack. Like many small or financially strapped schools, this one must have had limited resources to prevent or fix the attack because they system was down for a month and a half. No access to anything needed to operate the school or to communicate electronically!

How many other schools are vulnerable to such a disruption?

Regis University in Denver CO experienced something of that ilk in Fall 19
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 01, 2022, 05:46:41 AM
I am still reading the Chronicle of Higher Education. Quite a few of their contributed opinion pieces are generated by people in your situation of a specific annoyance, who then generalize to all of academe. "Why academe must fundamentally reform new-program development." It is like some of the worst clickbait sites.

I bet you could get your initial post here published at CHE with just a little effort to elaborate during lulls in the committee meetings.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on April 01, 2022, 02:42:52 PM
Quote from: Hibush on March 12, 2022, 04:43:09 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on March 11, 2022, 08:01:38 PM
In the twitter feed, shade was thrown at the departments that "really" caused the deficit. I'd be curious to know who they are. Since it's arts and sciences, I doubt that all departments are losing enrollment. Would they happen to be the science majors that are well enrolled but have expensive labs? Or departments that have grown successfully and are now pushing for new TT lines to meet demand?

It was the gened requirements that students are doing in high school AP or community college. English and chemistry. History and calculus.

Regional comprehensives don't have to deal with this as much. Dual enrollment is a more-pressing concern. I have supervised dual-enrollment and offering college credit for some of these classes isn't doing anyone any favors.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 01, 2022, 03:14:47 PM
Quote from: Hibush on April 01, 2022, 05:46:41 AM
I am still reading the Chronicle of Higher Education. Quite a few of their contributed opinion pieces are generated by people in your situation of a specific annoyance, who then generalize to all of academe. "Why academe must fundamentally reform new-program development." It is like some of the worst clickbait sites.

I bet you could get your initial post here published at CHE with just a little effort to elaborate during lulls in the committee meetings.

I get frustrated by the high-handed rhetoric without concrete details or suggestions.  It's the same sort of blather one finds in most pedagogy articles. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 02, 2022, 08:48:50 AM
Not sure if this story has been posted before.

Reimagined LAS, Iowa State (https://www.iowastatedaily.com/news/academics/iowa-state-university-college-of-liberal-arts-and-sciences-budget-issues-cuts-operating-costs-enrollment-tuition-college-departments-history-philosophy-humanities-arts-graduate-program-director-attrition-professor-faculty-staff-positions-innovation-entrepreneurship-reimagining-las-education-skillsets-thinking-writing-creative-interdisciplinary-past-historical-communication-diversity-united-states-of-america-students/article_18dcadb8-b13c-11ec-9077-af6cf4b0d221.html)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 04, 2022, 07:27:14 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 02, 2022, 08:48:50 AM
Not sure if this story has been posted before.

Reimagined LAS, Iowa State (https://www.iowastatedaily.com/news/academics/iowa-state-university-college-of-liberal-arts-and-sciences-budget-issues-cuts-operating-costs-enrollment-tuition-college-departments-history-philosophy-humanities-arts-graduate-program-director-attrition-professor-faculty-staff-positions-innovation-entrepreneurship-reimagining-las-education-skillsets-thinking-writing-creative-interdisciplinary-past-historical-communication-diversity-united-states-of-america-students/article_18dcadb8-b13c-11ec-9077-af6cf4b0d221.html)

It seems to be a case of "round up (and shoot) the usual suspects."  Well, we've known for a long time that many history grad programs needed to be shut down.

I notice that they're trying to point out that you can major in history and still make the big bucks, at least if you do something besides try to teach history.  It's a valid argument, as far as it goes, but it seems to be falling on deaf ears.  The conventional wisdom that only a handful of obviously vocational majors are worth majoring in seems to be too deeply entrenched at this point.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 07, 2022, 05:04:03 AM
Quote from: Hibush on March 31, 2022, 02:05:26 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on March 31, 2022, 01:04:39 PM
Lincoln College, in Lincoln, IL, to close (https://www.wglt.org/local-news/2022-03-30/lincoln-college-to-close-permanently-on-may-13) in May.

While Covid hurt a lot, it appears the coup de grace was a cyberattack. Like many small or financially strapped schools, this one must have had limited resources to prevent or fix the attack because they system was down for a month and a half. No access to anything needed to operate the school or to communicate electronically!

How many other schools are vulnerable to such a disruption?

Lincoln ran deficits amounting to 10-15% of total expenses in FYs 2018-2020. The only reason it was not in deficit in FYs 2016 and 2017 was because of asset sales of $11 million and $6 million, respectively.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on April 07, 2022, 08:02:45 PM
Are you suggesting that living 10-15% above your means for periods of a decade or more is *even worse* than a cyberattack?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 12, 2022, 08:29:40 AM
https://www.fox19.com/2022/04/11/hebrew-union-college-closes-147-year-residential-rabbinical-program-cincinnati/ (https://www.fox19.com/2022/04/11/hebrew-union-college-closes-147-year-residential-rabbinical-program-cincinnati/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on April 12, 2022, 09:28:19 AM
Oh, no.

I was raised in Columbus and did interfaith programs with people who'd graduated from there.

That's especially a loss in the Midwest, where there are still, sadly, pockets of anti-Semitism which the school's wide-ranging outreach programs addressed with educational input and communal support.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on April 12, 2022, 09:45:06 AM
There will still be general Judaic studies and outreach programs (though who know show long). Recruiting, educating and placing clergy is likely a challenge in all religions these days.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 13, 2022, 04:30:34 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 08, 2021, 10:02:28 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on May 08, 2021, 08:02:22 PM
Yet, I don't see reports of 3000 undergrad schools going under or even under extreme pressure, though maybe some are. Anyone have anything specific?

By the way, of course money changes everything. 3000 students and a billion dollar endowment probably keeps you safe. But 3000 and 500 million endowment is nice, but not safe enough.

Laurentian had ~9000. But their case is sort of exceptional.

Here's an update, provided by the provincial auditor general (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/laurentian-auditor-general-perspective-1.6418503):
Quote
Like all universities, Lysyk said, the COVID-19 pandemic affected Laurentian's finances, but its problems started long before, in 2010, when it went on a building spree to expand its Sudbury campus.

"There wasn't the revenue coming in to support the payment down of the principal and interest from those investments," Lysyk told CBC News.

She said there doesn't seem to be any intentional wrongdoing by Laurentian, and added its capital expansion plans were well meant. But she said the university's board of governors failed to provide proper oversight, and the Ministry of Colleges and Universities did not intervene in time when it was clear Laurentian was in financial straits.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on April 20, 2022, 11:10:51 AM
Interesting further discussion of Mills:

   https://prospect.org/education/plight-of-mills-college-american-higher-ed-alarm/

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 20, 2022, 05:57:11 PM
Quote from: mamselle on April 20, 2022, 11:10:51 AM
Interesting further discussion of Mills:

   https://prospect.org/education/plight-of-mills-college-american-higher-ed-alarm/

M.

That is a very interesting take. The author specializes in educational economics, so the analysis has some extra credibility. I could have used a little more of the comparative math between what they've done and what they should have done.

Nevertheless, the big screw up in admissions was not corrected by administration and then inevitable financial problems were dealt with poorly. Double whammy. Mills celarly was not in great finanaical shape even before the fiasco, which the author downplays.

The takehome seems reasonable: when the going gets tough, it is your unique strenghts that can pull you through. Spending on hare-braoined new initiatives and administrators to run them is a bad sign.

That last one bears repeating as a signal that the school is circling the drain and it is time to get out.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on April 20, 2022, 06:48:14 PM
Let's be honest.  An awful lot of small religious LACs, HBCUs and women's only colleges are probably not long for this life.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on April 20, 2022, 11:26:22 PM
What does Northeastern, a whole continent away from Mills, want to buy Mills for?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on April 21, 2022, 02:47:34 AM
Discussed upthread.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 21, 2022, 05:15:30 AM
Mills is old news. It was in financial exigency and on the road to closure years ago: https://activelearningps.com/2017/07/24/mills-college-when-the-bus-leaves-the-station-and-youre-not-on-it/ (https://activelearningps.com/2017/07/24/mills-college-when-the-bus-leaves-the-station-and-youre-not-on-it/).

Lincoln Christian University is closing, regardless of the PR spin its trustees are trying to put on it:

https://www.illinoistimes.com/springfield/end-of-an-era/Content?oid=14835815 (https://www.illinoistimes.com/springfield/end-of-an-era/Content?oid=14835815).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 21, 2022, 08:20:23 AM
This is interesting.  Many church-affiliated schools over the years have gradually moved away from their original core missions.  Lincoln seems to be trying to re-focus on that core in an effort to preserve that mission.  Unfortunately costs for running a college have gone way, way up over the years, while salaries for the sorts of ministers the college exists to train haven't.  Not many students planning for such ministry careers can afford today's tuition, and the school evidently doesn't have major denominational support to make up the difference.  They really need other educational programs to help subsidize the religious core mission, like my alma mater and other schools do.  I guess their efforts to create such programs didn't pan out.

Also, their Wikipedia article mentions that they built new athletic facilities and renovated buildings in the 2000s, when every college was borrowing money for that sort of thing in hopes of attracting more students.  They probably ended up losing money on the deal.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on April 21, 2022, 08:46:28 AM
In a previous job, at a conference of theological educators, I heard the point made that many seminaries are now being undermined by churches that will ordain those who have not completed (some need not even have started) an M.Div. (or more rarely, even, an M.Th).

The so-called 'main-stream' (named confessional) churches have maintained a stronger line on this than the 'free' churches have, apparently; some of the more conservative schools that were affiliated with main-line denominations but whose stances were 'acceptable' to the free churches have also suffered a great deal in admissions from that situation. 

I know of a couple of people who, wanting a more rigorous theological education, attended schools outside their denomination's cadre to obtain it. One was asked point-blank by their discernment committee why they had not attended the nearby denominationally-affiliated school (which at the time was foundering academically, and later closed). They side-stepped the issue of quality by noting that an ordained relative had attended it, and they'd always wanted to go there, and so squeaked by their ordination examination.

Another, just now finishing up, has met with veiled hostility from her committee in a recent interview in which it sounded as if, essentially, they saw her as too 'uppity' for choosing a more academically demanding school (I've heard this from other students there, as well). Her choice to become an academic chaplain didn't phase them; in fact, they seem to be insisting that she take on parish work for two years before allowing her to seek ordination (reading between the lines, they seem to want to 'break' her of her academic pretensions).

That's not to say, of course, that less well-educated individuals can't be, or aren't good pastoral ministers, I know of many who are.

But the pressure to 'dumb down' academic theological studies is not helping the schools that have tried to supply an informed ministry to their judicatories. The ATS site discusses this at length, as does a book a few years ago by its (now) director emeritus.

   https://www.ats.edu/

Sic transit (certain kinds of) gloria...

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: rth253 on April 25, 2022, 07:31:07 PM
Marymount in California (enrollment: 1,000) is closing. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/04/25/marymount-california-will-close-after-failed-merger
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 26, 2022, 02:04:50 PM
Quote from: rth253 on April 25, 2022, 07:31:07 PM
Marymount in California (enrollment: 1,000) is closing. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/04/25/marymount-california-will-close-after-failed-merger
"Founded in the late 1960s as a two-year institution and began an aggressive push to become a four-year institution with graduate programs in 2010."   That switch sounds insanely difficult. Did they realize that it would require an order of magnitude or more increase in the budget if they were to attract students?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on April 26, 2022, 02:35:31 PM
Quote from: Hibush on April 26, 2022, 02:04:50 PM
Quote from: rth253 on April 25, 2022, 07:31:07 PM
Marymount in California (enrollment: 1,000) is closing. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/04/25/marymount-california-will-close-after-failed-merger
"Founded in the late 1960s as a two-year institution and began an aggressive push to become a four-year institution with graduate programs in 2010."   That switch sounds insanely difficult. Did they realize that it would require an order of magnitude or more increase in the budget if they were to attract students?

What has struck me about many of these closures is the amount of accumulated financial debt.

First, from the IHE article about merger plan rejection https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/12/09/accreditor-denies-saint-leo%E2%80%93marymount-california-merger
(https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/12/09/accreditor-denies-saint-leo%E2%80%93marymount-california-merger)

QuoteMarymount California will effectively donate its land to Saint Leo in exchange for Saint Leo taking on the university's debt. The California university currently holds about $3.7 million in debt

Sounds like a debt-equity swap!

Second, from the IHE article linked by rth253

QuoteMarymount California has seen its enrollment fall by more than half since 2014–15, and it has burned through campus leaders.

Deficit, deficit. Deficits are financed. Who lends to these guys? Gamblers, who should rather go to Vegas? Endowment aside, I really don't know where the cash comes from. Is this all eating up endowments, asset stripping?

ETA: Enowments
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 26, 2022, 05:13:47 PM
Marymount's Palos Verdes property has to be worth far more than the $3.7 million in debt. Maybe the could have kept stripping equity more.

I keep hearing, in referenece to pricy NFTs and similar assets that my local bank would not take as colllateral, is that there is just so much extra cash scrambling around this economy that there are not enough things to invest it in. So why not invest in a crazy scheme that, if it defaults, gives you a nice beachfront property in Southern California. Is there anything to that explanation?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on April 26, 2022, 05:52:21 PM
Quote from: Hibush on April 26, 2022, 05:13:47 PM
Marymount's Palos Verdes property has to be worth far more than the $3.7 million in debt. Maybe the could have kept stripping equity more.

I keep hearing, in reference to pricey NFTs and similar assets that my local bank would not take as collateral, is that there is just so much extra cash scrambling around this economy that there are not enough things to invest it in. So why not invest in a crazy scheme that, if it defaults, gives you a nice beachfront property in Southern California. Is there anything to that explanation?

Sure, cheap loans [FED sets interest rates]. That makes prices of real of assets, like property, rise. So I understand why College A thought College B's relinquishment  of property for cash was a great idea. Thusly, I lend money to A over the years because it's gonna get College B's property?

That may well be true! It's just very roundabout compared to buying the beachfront property or going on a trip to Vegas.

It's College A's financing of its deficit over the years that puzzles me, not College B's luck in having lots of high-priced property today.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on April 26, 2022, 06:31:51 PM
Might College A have something written into its by-laws or other documents that tie is board's hands on how to manage debt, or other issues?

Picky predecessors can hog-tie their descendants.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 03, 2022, 01:11:42 PM
Henderson State University has announced its planned cuts. 

QuoteChancellor Chuck Ambrose revealed a plan that would do away with undergraduate degree programs in geography, history, political science, public administration, social science, criminal justice, early childhood development, consumer sciences, human services, biology, radiography, chemistry, mathematics, nuclear medicine technology, medical lab science, studio art, art education, communication, mass media communication, theatre arts, English and Spanish. Students currently enrolled in these degree programs, or who are set to enroll in the fall of 2022, will be able to finish their chosen degrees at Henderson State.
Advertisement

These cuts aren't final until they go to the Arkansas State University System Board of Trustees for a vote on Thursday at 10 a.m., Henderson State spokeswoman Tina Hall said.

The cuts, while drastic, were not unexpected. Hall told the Arkansas Nonprofit News Network's Debra Hale-Shelton earlier this year that academic programs were expected to shrink 30-40%.

The plan revealed Tuesday would cut 88 jobs, only 21 of which are currently unfilled. This means 67 people will lose their jobs. Of those 67, 44 are tenured professors. These cuts are expected to save more than $5 million.

Predictably, half the cuts will be in the school's liberal arts programs.  Looks like there will be very little liberal arts left.

More at:

https://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2022/05/02/henderson-state-to-cut-history-biology-art-and-other-programs-in-plan-to-stay-afloat

The Chancellor's actual plan is at:

https://hsu.edu/uploads/pages/hsu_chancellor_recommendations.pdf




Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on May 03, 2022, 02:05:36 PM
apl68: are you thinking of these (biology, radiography, chemistry, mathematics, nuclear medicine technology, medical lab science) as liberal arts? Just curious.

I definitely don't think of consumer sciences, public administration, human services or early childhood as liberal arts.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 03, 2022, 04:07:24 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 03, 2022, 02:05:36 PM
apl68: are you thinking of these (biology, radiography, chemistry, mathematics, nuclear medicine technology, medical lab science) as liberal arts? Just curious.

I definitely don't think of consumer sciences, public administration, human services or early childhood as liberal arts.

If you'll look at the Chancellor's plan, of 88 positions they're planning to cut 24 are in fields designated "Applied Professional Science and Technology," six are in "Business Innovation and Entrepreneurship," 16 are in "Health, Education, and Social Sustainability," and 42 are in "Arts and Humanities."  The "Health, Education, and Social Sustainability" field includes cuts to their history, geography, and political sciences majors, which are generally considered "humanities."  So it's safe to say that at least half of the losses are in humanities fields.  I'm aware that a number of STEM programs are also being cut, which is why I said "half" the cuts would be in the humanities, not "all."

There will be no history major any more, or majors in political science, or English, or foreign languages, or studio arts, theater, or music.  HSU's niche in Arkansas has long been that of the state's only public liberal arts college.  It's hard to see how it could be considered a liberal arts college once these cuts have gone into effect.  It looks like it's going to end up becoming just another compass-point vocational school.  Which will still be a useful institution for the state to have, but it will be very diminished from what it once was. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on May 03, 2022, 04:20:29 PM
No offense intended! I truly was curious, as I've been one to argue biology, chemistry, physics and math are in fact liberal arts. I haven't read the actual plan, and probably won't. It will likely make me weep.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 03, 2022, 06:10:31 PM
With Henderson State, the incredible financial non-management really put them with no degrees of freedom. At least after the ASU takeover of management mechanics (like collecting tution), at least they know where the money is and how much they have.

I suspect they are not able to ask, "what is our vision?" or "what strenghts and history do we build on?" but just "which classes are making money this year?" And we see the answer in this announcement.

They are a poster child for "dire financial straits". But there do seem to be people who care about the place, so its fortunes may turn.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 03, 2022, 07:20:58 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 03, 2022, 04:07:24 PM
It's hard to see how it could be considered a liberal arts college once these cuts have gone into effect.  It looks like it's going to end up becoming just another compass-point vocational school.  Which will still be a useful institution for the state to have, but it will be very diminished from what it once was.

Education is turning into job training.  Virtually every school in this list, and my own, is trending in exactly this direction.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 04, 2022, 04:21:20 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 03, 2022, 07:20:58 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 03, 2022, 04:07:24 PM
It's hard to see how it could be considered a liberal arts college once these cuts have gone into effect.  It looks like it's going to end up becoming just another compass-point vocational school.  Which will still be a useful institution for the state to have, but it will be very diminished from what it once was.

Education is turning into job training.  Virtually every school in this list, and my own, is trending in exactly this direction.

All the normal schools were explicitly job training for teachers. Seminaries were explicitly job training for clergy. Those are the origins of many rural schools that later took on more general-education missions as   vocational-student demand declined. Remembering them as one-time ivory towers is inaccurate and can lead to undue frustration.

Differentiating the various types, and the evolving demand for their distinct offerings is important for detecting whether trends a worrisome or positive.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 04, 2022, 06:51:14 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 03, 2022, 04:20:29 PM
No offense intended! I truly was curious, as I've been one to argue biology, chemistry, physics and math are in fact liberal arts. I haven't read the actual plan, and probably won't. It will likely make me weep.

It certainly makes me sad.  I've known people at HSU.  I almost WENT there for my undergrad education in the 1980s, after being offered a full scholarship there and seeing what strong programs they had in some areas.  My mother has one of her MAs from there.  I still like to visit their campus and library whenever I'm in that part of the state.  It's heartbreaking to see a school that had so much to offer diminished like this.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 04, 2022, 06:57:43 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 04, 2022, 04:21:20 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 03, 2022, 07:20:58 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 03, 2022, 04:07:24 PM
It's hard to see how it could be considered a liberal arts college once these cuts have gone into effect.  It looks like it's going to end up becoming just another compass-point vocational school.  Which will still be a useful institution for the state to have, but it will be very diminished from what it once was.

Education is turning into job training.  Virtually every school in this list, and my own, is trending in exactly this direction.

All the normal schools were explicitly job training for teachers. Seminaries were explicitly job training for clergy. Those are the origins of many rural schools that later took on more general-education missions as   vocational-student demand declined. Remembering them as one-time ivory towers is inaccurate and can lead to undue frustration.

Differentiating the various types, and the evolving demand for their distinct offerings is important for detecting whether trends a worrisome or positive.

It has occurred to me that in a sense they are getting back to their teacher-training roots.  They were Henderson State Teachers' College within living memory.  Still, for some years HSU had a significant liberal arts mission.  It's sad to see that go.

They still have enough regional vocational students and enough of a built-in regional constituency that they should be able to stay in business.  I hope so for Arkadelphia's sake.  Being a college town has been good for that community.  I know Arkadelphia pretty well.  Honestly, my idea, just dreaming about it place to live would look a lot like Arkadelphia.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 04, 2022, 08:31:51 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 04, 2022, 04:21:20 AM
All the normal schools were explicitly job training for teachers. Seminaries were explicitly job training for clergy. Those are the origins of many rural schools that later took on more general-education missions as   vocational-student demand declined. Remembering them as one-time ivory towers is inaccurate and can lead to undue frustration.

What is it with stating the obvious and strawman arguements!?!?

My last job was at a teachers-college-turned-liberal-arts-college, as a matter of fact.

Then education evolved in America from teachers colleges to liberal arts institutions.

And now we are devolving back to job training.  It is too damn bad.

Maybe this has been posted already: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2022/05/04/university-seeks-cut-67-faculty-44-them-tenured
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Clarino1 on May 04, 2022, 08:47:52 AM
I also have known people who attended and who taught at HSU.  It is sad, indeed, and a tribute to administrative incompetence.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 04, 2022, 10:32:48 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 04, 2022, 08:31:51 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 04, 2022, 04:21:20 AM
All the normal schools were explicitly job training for teachers. Seminaries were explicitly job training for clergy. Those are the origins of many rural schools that later took on more general-education missions as   vocational-student demand declined. Remembering them as one-time ivory towers is inaccurate and can lead to undue frustration.

What is it with stating the obvious and strawman arguements!?!?

My last job was at a teachers-college-turned-liberal-arts-college, as a matter of fact.

Then education evolved in America from teachers colleges to liberal arts institutions.

And now we are devolving back to job training.  It is too damn bad.

Maybe this has been posted already: https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2022/05/04/university-seeks-cut-67-faculty-44-them-tenured

Pot-kettle issue at play.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pgher on May 04, 2022, 03:44:46 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 04, 2022, 04:21:20 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 03, 2022, 07:20:58 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 03, 2022, 04:07:24 PM
It's hard to see how it could be considered a liberal arts college once these cuts have gone into effect.  It looks like it's going to end up becoming just another compass-point vocational school.  Which will still be a useful institution for the state to have, but it will be very diminished from what it once was.

Education is turning into job training.  Virtually every school in this list, and my own, is trending in exactly this direction.

All the normal schools were explicitly job training for teachers. Seminaries were explicitly job training for clergy. Those are the origins of many rural schools that later took on more general-education missions as   vocational-student demand declined. Remembering them as one-time ivory towers is inaccurate and can lead to undue frustration.

Differentiating the various types, and the evolving demand for their distinct offerings is important for detecting whether trends a worrisome or positive.

I believe we will look back on the era from 1945 until perhaps 1995 as a historical aberration, and the present era as a painful reversion to the mean. Liberal arts for the wealthy, job training at best for the poor, and hopefully some professional education in between (doctors, lawyers, engineers).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on May 04, 2022, 03:55:14 PM
Quote from: pgher on May 04, 2022, 03:44:46 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 04, 2022, 04:21:20 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 03, 2022, 07:20:58 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 03, 2022, 04:07:24 PM
It's hard to see how it could be considered a liberal arts college once these cuts have gone into effect.  It looks like it's going to end up becoming just another compass-point vocational school.  Which will still be a useful institution for the state to have, but it will be very diminished from what it once was.

Education is turning into job training.  Virtually every school in this list, and my own, is trending in exactly this direction.

All the normal schools were explicitly job training for teachers. Seminaries were explicitly job training for clergy. Those are the origins of many rural schools that later took on more general-education missions as   vocational-student demand declined. Remembering them as one-time ivory towers is inaccurate and can lead to undue frustration.

Differentiating the various types, and the evolving demand for their distinct offerings is important for detecting whether trends a worrisome or positive.

I believe we will look back on the era from 1945 until perhaps 1995 as a historical aberration, and the present era as a painful reversion to the mean. Liberal arts for the wealthy, job training at best for the poor, and hopefully some professional education in between (doctors, lawyers, engineers).

Then why do we have $1.75 trillion in student debt?

There is $28, 950 per BA. This is unbelievable, and the rest is even more unbelievable!

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/student-loan-debt (https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/student-loan-debt)

The debt strongly urges that people think it's worth it. Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 04, 2022, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: pgher on May 04, 2022, 03:44:46 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 04, 2022, 04:21:20 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 03, 2022, 07:20:58 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 03, 2022, 04:07:24 PM
It's hard to see how it could be considered a liberal arts college once these cuts have gone into effect.  It looks like it's going to end up becoming just another compass-point vocational school.  Which will still be a useful institution for the state to have, but it will be very diminished from what it once was.

Education is turning into job training.  Virtually every school in this list, and my own, is trending in exactly this direction.

All the normal schools were explicitly job training for teachers. Seminaries were explicitly job training for clergy. Those are the origins of many rural schools that later took on more general-education missions as   vocational-student demand declined. Remembering them as one-time ivory towers is inaccurate and can lead to undue frustration.

Differentiating the various types, and the evolving demand for their distinct offerings is important for detecting whether trends a worrisome or positive.

I believe we will look back on the era from 1945 until perhaps 1995 as a historical aberration, and the present era as a painful reversion to the mean. Liberal arts for the wealthy, job training at best for the poor, and hopefully some professional education in between (doctors, lawyers, engineers).

I'm sure you are correct.  Nevertheless, warts and all, the devolution is a crying shame.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on May 04, 2022, 08:42:18 PM
I'm more of a fan of a two-track system you see in Europe. Universities are for people of all social classes, but it's merit-based. I know you still have issues, but it is not in anyone's interest to saddle young adults with debt  if they can't finish a degree. Unfortunately, open-admissions schools are going to have retention issues and there are too many who need remedial education before moving on to the next level.

I don't know how you address folks who really could succeed in school if they didn't have to work full time. Generous financial aid and/or welfare would work, but lawmakers aren't fans of giving welfare benefits to students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 05, 2022, 04:48:24 AM
Quote from: pgher on May 04, 2022, 03:44:46 PM
I believe we will look back on the era from 1945 until perhaps 1995 as a historical aberration, and the present era as a painful reversion to the mean. Liberal arts for the wealthy, job training at best for the poor, and hopefully some professional education in between (doctors, lawyers, engineers).

If those turn out to be the things people *prefer, what is the problem?

(*Note I said "prefer" rather than "choose". People may feel forced into a choice which does not reflect what they prefer. Unless and until we know what they prefer, simply knowing what people choose doesn't tell us much.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on May 05, 2022, 06:42:50 AM
Even the well-off want the typical liberal arts college to tell them how this education will prepare them for either a very particular type of job, or for the job market in general.  Our career office is very open and almost aggressive in involving students in their
"process" from orientation and on down the line. When speaking with prospective students, I always am sure to mention where we have placed or students (including grad school, but also including jobs that are only somewhat related to what they learned here).
Yes, sure, learn about Aristotle, Newton, etc.., but also, teach me how to use certain lab equipment or software, etc..
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 06, 2022, 01:23:02 PM
As expected, Arkansas State University has voted to adopt the plan to cut faculty and programs at Henderson State University.


QuoteAt Thursday's meeting at the Arkansas State University System office in Little Rock, Welch outlined a history of financial mismanagement that put the school $78 million in debt.

ASU System administrators studied Henderson State's financials before agreeing to bring the struggling university into the system in 2019. Administrators found that Henderson State University was "literally on the brink of closing its doors," Welch said.

Welch said Henderson State is in debt because of numerous poor decisions by previous administrators, a situation that included budgets that overestimated revenue and underestimated costs; unpaid bills to vendors; and depleted reserves.

"We found a university that had massive problems in most every area of financial and financially related operations," Welch said.

To pay off some of the school's debts, the state of Arkansas agreed to lend Henderson State $6 million with zero interest, which the university almost immediately spent, Ambrose said.

Glen Jones, Henderson State's former president, resigned in July 2019 with the school struggling financially in part because of unpaid student account balances.

In December 2019, the ASU System board of trustees agreed to incorporate Henderson State into the ASU System.


https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2022/may/06/asu-system-approves-henderson-state-cuts/


They also quote faculty members who are, obviously, upset that they weren't consulted on this.  They speak of repeated votes of no-confidence on both the current head of HSU and his predecessor.  I've read elsewhere that these cuts amount to better than a third of the college's faculty.  Again, it looks like all they're keeping is a handful of more in-demand vocational degree programs, and the minimal amount of gen-ed classes and faculty needed to support those.

It just truly amazes me that HSU could have gotten this badly in debt.  I wonder where all the money went?  News reports have spoken of a large proportion of students being unable to pay their bills.  I know that they've invested a lot of money in new dorm construction and such in recent decades--the campus looked fantastic on my most recent visit earlier this spring.  Evidently the previous administration managed to conceal major shortfalls for quite some time before the crisis became acute.  It sounds like ASU's trustees are correct in saying that some pretty drastic action must be taken in order to keep the doors open at this point.  Absent a massive state bailout.  Given the declining enrollment and long-term financial mismanagement, I can understand why the Legislature doesn't want to just entrust HSU with a bunch of money.  Their leadership hasn't earned that trust.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on May 06, 2022, 01:36:53 PM
QuoteIt just truly amazes me that HSU could have gotten this badly in debt.  I wonder where all the money went?

Hell, I wonder where the money came from before they were bailed out by the State.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 06, 2022, 03:08:21 PM
The situation reminds me of a certain public library in the state some years back.  The librarian brought in some impressive exhibits and other programs at the library, and remodeled an historic building in the gentrifying downtown to serve as a new branch.  He won lots of accolades.  Then he died of cancer, and it was soon revealed that he had done all this with borrowed money.  Somehow he had been allowed to borrow far more money than the library could pay back.  They had to cancel programs, cut hours, and lay people off to service their debt and keep going. 

The degree-holding librarians pushed forward a respected, about-to-retire longtime paraprofessional to serve as interim director and announce the cuts and layoffs.  Which I thought was very unfair, and represented an abdication of responsibility by the more formally qualified staff.  They had to do two different job searches before they could find a qualified candidate willing to serve as director, since no librarian in the state wanted anything to do with the situation.  She has done a remarkable job of retrenchment, so I suppose maybe that's a hopeful sign for HSU that there can be life for an institution after disastrous mismanagement.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on May 06, 2022, 03:16:57 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 06, 2022, 03:08:21 PM
The situation reminds me of a certain public library in the state some years back.  The librarian brought in some impressive exhibits and other programs at the library, and remodeled an historic building in the gentrifying downtown to serve as a new branch.  He won lots of accolades.  Then he died of cancer, and it was soon revealed that he had done all this with borrowed money.  Somehow he had been allowed to borrow far more money than the library could pay back.  They had to cancel programs, cut hours, and lay people off to service their debt and keep going. 

...


Precisely!

The librarian seems to have been playing end-game.

But, who authorized the borrowing, and who lent the funds?

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 06, 2022, 04:15:17 PM
Quote from: dismalist on May 06, 2022, 03:16:57 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 06, 2022, 03:08:21 PM
The situation reminds me of a certain public library in the state some years back.  The librarian brought in some impressive exhibits and other programs at the library, and remodeled an historic building in the gentrifying downtown to serve as a new branch.  He won lots of accolades.  Then he died of cancer, and it was soon revealed that he had done all this with borrowed money.  Somehow he had been allowed to borrow far more money than the library could pay back.  They had to cancel programs, cut hours, and lay people off to service their debt and keep going. 

...


Precisely!

The librarian seems to have been playing end-game.

But, who authorized the borrowing, and who lent the funds?

A Board of Trustees and a lender who weren't paying enough attention, evidently.  I can't imagine ever talking my Board into authorizing anything like that.  Or even trying to.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on May 06, 2022, 04:59:57 PM
I don't have the answers, and there isn't political will to make college a lot cheaper. Wound that help Henderson State or are retention issue deeper than students not having money?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 07, 2022, 05:27:32 AM
Henderson State University was burned to the ground by corrupt financial mismanagement that lasted for a decade. Tenured faculty whose positions were eliminated under the current plan have been given one-year contracts. They will lose their jobs as of summer 2023.

Watch for Florida Memorial University. In FY 2020, it was able to write off $30 million in debt but still posted an $11 million deficit. In FY 2021, it had a $5.6 million deficit. As of FY 2020, its undergraduate FTE enrollment was down 40% from FY 2005. It had less than 50 graduate students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2022, 08:46:31 AM
IHE: Necessary Cuts or a 'Downward Spiral'? (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/05/10/peralta-community-college-district-cuts-courses-adjuncts)

Seems like both things are true.

Quote
[Jennifer Shanoski, president of the Peralta Federation of Teachers] worries the district is in a "downward spiral," where professors get cut because there aren't enough students, which limits students' course options, frustrates them and risks the district losing more students.

"It's like this self-propagating problem," she said. "I fully expect they will cut us again next year."

Jannett Jackson, interim chancellor at the district, said strategically cutting courses that enroll fewer than 25 students is an unfortunate but necessary step to shore up the district's financial health amid enrollment declines. Of the 56 course sections cut this term, there were just three students registered per class on average, and 53 percent of the sections had no students registered.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 10, 2022, 09:23:05 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2022, 08:46:31 AM
IHE: Necessary Cuts or a 'Downward Spiral'? (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/05/10/peralta-community-college-district-cuts-courses-adjuncts)

Seems like both things are true.

Quote
[Jennifer Shanoski, president of the Peralta Federation of Teachers] worries the district is in a "downward spiral," where professors get cut because there aren't enough students, which limits students' course options, frustrates them and risks the district losing more students.

"It's like this self-propagating problem," she said. "I fully expect they will cut us again next year."

Jannett Jackson, interim chancellor at the district, said strategically cutting courses that enroll fewer than 25 students is an unfortunate but necessary step to shore up the district's financial health amid enrollment declines. Of the 56 course sections cut this term, there were just three students registered per class on average, and 53 percent of the sections had no students registered.

This part seems like a no-brainer that no-one should have a problem with. (No-one should expect to get paid for teaching zero students.)

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on May 10, 2022, 11:29:25 AM
OTOH, at my place three students is a net gain for the university if the instructor is an adjunct.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2022, 11:49:53 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 10, 2022, 09:23:05 AM
Quote
Of the 56 course sections cut this term, there were just three students registered per class on average, and 53 percent of the sections had no students registered.

This part seems like a no-brainer that no-one should have a problem with. (No-one should expect to get paid for teaching zero students.)
[/quote]

No one is saying run the courses with no students, Marshy.

What some are saying is that, no matter how you parse it, this signals the decline and devolution of this institution as fewer students sign up for fewer course offerings.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 10, 2022, 12:28:50 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2022, 11:49:53 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 10, 2022, 09:23:05 AM
Quote
Of the 56 course sections cut this term, there were just three students registered per class on average, and 53 percent of the sections had no students registered.

This part seems like a no-brainer that no-one should have a problem with. (No-one should expect to get paid for teaching zero students.)

No one is saying run the courses with no students, Marshy.

I was referring to this:
Quote
Jennifer Shanoski, president of the Peralta Federation of Teachers] worries the district is in a "downward spiral," where professors get cut because there aren't enough students, which limits students' course options, frustrates them and risks the district losing more students.

"It's like this self-propagating problem," she said. "I fully expect they will cut us again next year."


If there are no students registered in a course, it's not part of the downward spiral. It's exactly the right situation to cancel a course.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 10, 2022, 12:52:10 PM
Some of our news articles on this thread have touched on something like this.  Once word gets around that an institution is in decline, there is a tendency for potential students not to give it a chance.  This accelerates the decline.  It's one reason why struggling colleges try so hard to conceal just how bad a shape they're in--they're afraid that everybody will decide they're finished, and that decision will turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Although the motive is understandable, this sort of thing is how schools can end up going bust right in the middle of the academic year and leaving students and faculty in the lurch.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on May 10, 2022, 01:07:39 PM
It's like with bankruptcy. First it happens slowly, then it happens quickly.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2022, 02:26:32 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 10, 2022, 12:28:50 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2022, 11:49:53 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 10, 2022, 09:23:05 AM
Quote
Of the 56 course sections cut this term, there were just three students registered per class on average, and 53 percent of the sections had no students registered.

This part seems like a no-brainer that no-one should have a problem with. (No-one should expect to get paid for teaching zero students.)

No one is saying run the courses with no students, Marshy.

I was referring to this:
Quote
Jennifer Shanoski, president of the Peralta Federation of Teachers] worries the district is in a "downward spiral," where professors get cut because there aren't enough students, which limits students' course options, frustrates them and risks the district losing more students.

"It's like this self-propagating problem," she said. "I fully expect they will cut us again next year."


If there are no students registered in a course, it's not part of the downward spiral. It's exactly the right situation to cancel a course.

Oh Marshy...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2022, 02:34:54 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 10, 2022, 12:52:10 PM
Some of our news articles on this thread have touched on something like this.  Once word gets around that an institution is in decline, there is a tendency for potential students not to give it a chance.  This accelerates the decline.  It's one reason why struggling colleges try so hard to conceal just how bad a shape they're in--they're afraid that everybody will decide they're finished, and that decision will turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Although the motive is understandable, this sort of thing is how schools can end up going bust right in the middle of the academic year and leaving students and faculty in the lurch.

This is what I am afraid is happening with our institution.  We keep getting cuts and Kremlin-level doublespeak from administration as student and the community are getting angry.  We have had some good news regarding large donations, but these have done nothing to buoy the university, and our press is generally bad.  Even our teams are losing.  Our retention and graduation rates are terrible and getting worse.  And we are losing about 500 students a semester.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 10, 2022, 02:36:47 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2022, 02:26:32 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 10, 2022, 12:28:50 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2022, 11:49:53 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 10, 2022, 09:23:05 AM
Quote
Of the 56 course sections cut this term, there were just three students registered per class on average, and 53 percent of the sections had no students registered.

This part seems like a no-brainer that no-one should have a problem with. (No-one should expect to get paid for teaching zero students.)

No one is saying run the courses with no students, Marshy.

I was referring to this:
Quote
Jennifer Shanoski, president of the Peralta Federation of Teachers] worries the district is in a "downward spiral," where professors get cut because there aren't enough students, which limits students' course options, frustrates them and risks the district losing more students.

"It's like this self-propagating problem," she said. "I fully expect they will cut us again next year."


If there are no students registered in a course, it's not part of the downward spiral. It's exactly the right situation to cancel a course.

Oh Marshy...

So can you explain to me how students not having the option to take a course that they didn't want enough to sign up for frustrates them? (I'm guessing that you're suggesting somehow this IS part of a downward spiral, but given the reasoning above it wouldn't seem to apply to this situation. Of course, you could be cryptically implying something completely unrelated, in which case I have no idea what.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2022, 02:39:21 PM
The article explains it, Marshy.  Some things you have to figure out yourself.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 10, 2022, 02:49:29 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2022, 02:39:21 PM
The article explains it, Marshy.  Some things you have to figure out yourself.

Can anyone else explain what Wahoo is getting at that I'm obviously missing? Specifically, how is cancelling courses that not a single student signed up for a bad thing? (Other than the fact that those courses are that unpopular, of course; that indicates the institution isn't serving its student population very well.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2022, 03:15:19 PM
Oh for pete's sake, my poor friend Marshy.


It works like this: enrollment decline = dropped courses & majors = fewer options for students = fewer students attend b/c their options are fewer = enrollment declines = dropped courses & majors = fewer students attend b/c their options are fewer = enrollment decline = repeat = repeat = repeat.

It's like this.

Quote
Michelle Gallaga, a second-year student at Berkeley City College, was hoping to take a sociology of gender course this coming fall, but when she went to register, she found out the class was no longer being offered. She hopes to transfer to the University of California, Berkeley, to major in gender and women's studies, but with related coursework unavailable at the community college, she worries it may not be an option.

"It doesn't allow me to consider gender and women's studies even though I'm leaning more toward that now," she said. "It's kind of limiting."

<snip>

[Shanoski] worries the district is in a "downward spiral," where professors get cut because there aren't enough students, which limits students' course options, frustrates them and risks the district losing more students.

Which is what I already posted before.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 10, 2022, 03:24:35 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2022, 03:15:19 PM
Oh for pete's sake, my poor friend Marshy.


It works like this: enrollment decline = dropped courses & majors = fewer options for students = fewer students attend b/c their options are fewer = enrollment declines = dropped courses & majors = fewer students attend b/c their options are fewer = enrollment decline = repeat = repeat = repeat.


And my point is that the courses which no one signs up for are part of the problem in the first place. A department needs to be constantly adapting their own offerings so that what is available has a decent matchup with what students are interested in. There's no value to offering "electives" that no-one elects to take.




Quote
It's like this.

Quote
Michelle Gallaga, a second-year student at Berkeley City College, was hoping to take a sociology of gender course this coming fall, but when she went to register, she found out the class was no longer being offered. She hopes to transfer to the University of California, Berkeley, to major in gender and women's studies, but with related coursework unavailable at the community college, she worries it may not be an option.

"It doesn't allow me to consider gender and women's studies even though I'm leaning more toward that now," she said. "It's kind of limiting."

<snip>

[Shanoski] worries the district is in a "downward spiral," where professors get cut because there aren't enough students, which limits students' course options, frustrates them and risks the district losing more students.

Which is what I already posted before.

Even in that example, the student talked about a course she wanted to take. If she's the first person (and only?) in a couple of years to want to take it, it's not worth offering. They'd be much better offering something which they have a definitely sufficient market for.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on May 10, 2022, 03:35:06 PM
QuoteEven in that example, the student talked about a course she wanted to take. If she's the first person (and only?) in a couple of years to want to take it, it's not worth offering. They'd be much better offering something which they have a definitely sufficient market for.

And if there is no sufficient market, turn it off. Let the institution die.

Otherwise, this gets into a plea for more money from people who aren't benefiting from the expense.

The student population is declining, so far concentrated at two year colleges. Are we collectively supposed to save faulty positions?

Labor market is booming at the moment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2022, 03:58:26 PM
Gosh Marshy, that's brilliant.  You have solved the problem.  Give'em a call.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Istiblennius on May 10, 2022, 05:14:47 PM
Balancing between offering enough variation in courses with recognizing the lack of interest in topics and/or veering away from poorly structured or poorly taught courses is pretty challenging. Ideally, the Marshy strategy of identifying and triaging poorly enrolled courses would be balanced with the Wahoo strategy of ensuring that wide variability in course offerings remains, but that might involve sunsetting or eliminating some courses and innovating new ones. Because Academia tends to move and to innovate slowly, that balance isn't easily achieved.

Apologies to both Marshy and Wahoo - I know I greatly oversimplified what both of you discussed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on May 10, 2022, 05:21:01 PM
Quote from: Istiblennius on May 10, 2022, 05:14:47 PM
Balancing between offering enough variation in courses with recognizing the lack of interest in topics and/or veering away from poorly structured or poorly taught courses is pretty challenging. Ideally, the Marshy strategy of identifying and triaging poorly enrolled courses would be balanced with the Wahoo strategy of ensuring that wide variability in course offerings remains, but that might involve sunsetting or eliminating some courses and innovating new ones. Because Academia tends to move and to innovate slowly, that balance isn't easily achieved.

Apologies to both Marshy and Wahoo - I know I greatly oversimplified what both of you discussed.

Mostly, who is gonna pay for this balancing act?

There is no free money.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2022, 05:55:58 PM
Quote from: Istiblennius on May 10, 2022, 05:14:47 PM
Apologies to both Marshy and Wahoo - I know I greatly oversimplified what both of you discussed.

No, you were pretty much on the money.

I am not arguing that courses should be kept on the books or that majors should be left open if there are no students (something I think Marshy is confused about), rather that we are witnessing a phenomenon which probably has no answer except what dismalist posted. 

This is maybe the situation that my current institution will be in in a decade or so, if not sooner----exactly this cycle of decline; cuts; fewer options; bad PR; declines; cuts etc. until the bitter end.  Pollymere spoke often and vehemently about this scenario, and she was right.

I have argued that we as a culture spend huge amounts of money sometimes mindlessly and could afford to salvage our campuses in one form or another, but I think we lack the will and our faculty and admin have no plan but to guide their institutions to the ground.

Then again, maybe it is time to tear the whole system down and rebuild it?  I just don't know.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 11, 2022, 05:53:21 AM
Quote from: Istiblennius on May 10, 2022, 05:14:47 PM
Balancing between offering enough variation in courses with recognizing the lack of interest in topics and/or veering away from poorly structured or poorly taught courses is pretty challenging. Ideally, the Marshy strategy of identifying and triaging poorly enrolled courses would be balanced with the Wahoo strategy of ensuring that wide variability in course offerings remains, but that might involve sunsetting or eliminating some courses and innovating new ones. Because Academia tends to move and to innovate slowly, that balance isn't easily achieved.

Apologies to both Marshy and Wahoo - I know I greatly oversimplified what both of you discussed.

That was pretty much good. At our institution, they instituted a policy some time ago that when a department wants to add a new course, they have to retire one. This keeps us honest so that there aren't courses on the books that haven't actually been taught in years. It makes departments pro-active about identifying unpopular courses and getting rid of them to make way for things that are more relevant now.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Istiblennius on May 11, 2022, 08:56:51 AM
Glad to know I wasn't too far off in interpreting your arguments.

At our place, we really struggle with a relatively small, but loud group of folks want to cling, tightly, with both hands to courses that students are not taking and often have to be cancelled. Students are frustrated because the popular courses are full, or because they have to rework their schedule around a cancellation. They also express annoyance that we do have some limited variability - 20 History courses about Europe, 1 about Africa and 2 about Latin America seems like 42 choices, but to students it doesn't feel that way. It feels like 3 choices, and most of the space is in courses they don't find relevant. 

Several programs have proposed some innovative strategies to build enrollment by building programs and courses that would attract students. The curriculum process, which requires faculty senate approval (although our provost can override that) often kills outright, or through 1,000 cuts in the form of tabled motions these innovative courses and programs because they could - wait for it - pull resources away from the struggling courses. Granted, not all of the new ideas are awesome and they should be revisited to ensure wise use of tuition dollars. But the knee jerk assumption that what we've always done is good (I mean, it worked in the 1980s!) and new ideas are bad is troublesome. I do understand that folks are worried about their jobs, but doubling down on what isn't working feels like a way to accelerate that concern.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on May 11, 2022, 09:44:08 AM
I've come to the conclusion that there is no academic program that really attracts students of "traditional" age.  Maybe some attract their parents. But even there, its mostly related to what of their child's interested can be converted into a job. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on May 11, 2022, 10:21:40 AM
We have some cool programs on my campus. Mine is struggling. Too many courses on the books that don't get taught at all, and we have some needs to actually help students get jobs.  Too many resources devoted to GE when they could be taught in larger sections to free up load.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 11, 2022, 10:26:36 AM
Quote from: Istiblennius on May 11, 2022, 08:56:51 AM
Glad to know I wasn't too far off in interpreting your arguments.

At our place, we really struggle with a relatively small, but loud group of folks want to cling, tightly, with both hands to courses that students are not taking and often have to be cancelled. Students are frustrated because the popular courses are full, or because they have to rework their schedule around a cancellation. They also express annoyance that we do have some limited variability - 20 History courses about Europe, 1 about Africa and 2 about Latin America seems like 42 choices, but to students it doesn't feel that way. It feels like 3 choices, and most of the space is in courses they don't find relevant. 

Several programs have proposed some innovative strategies to build enrollment by building programs and courses that would attract students. The curriculum process, which requires faculty senate approval (although our provost can override that) often kills outright, or through 1,000 cuts in the form of tabled motions these innovative courses and programs because they could - wait for it - pull resources away from the struggling courses. Granted, not all of the new ideas are awesome and they should be revisited to ensure wise use of tuition dollars. But the knee jerk assumption that what we've always done is good (I mean, it worked in the 1980s!) and new ideas are bad is troublesome. I do understand that folks are worried about their jobs, but doubling down on what isn't working feels like a way to accelerate that concern.

You make a good point there.  If a department doesn't respond to long-term changes in what students want to study, then ultimately they could lose their relevance and end up being eliminated.  If there's very much of this in social sciences and literature departments around the country, it could account for some of the decline in student interest in these fields.  This is one of the arguments for bringing in "diverse" new hires, since some of them could, if carefully chosen, be more able to teach courses that students would consider relevant.  In some departments the turnover in faculty may be falling behind the change in student interests.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 11, 2022, 10:36:10 AM
Some reactions to the Henderson State University cuts in this article. 


QuoteA total of eight speakers -- each given three minutes to address the board -- shared their opinions on the restructuring during the online meeting this past Thursday, but others submitted written comments released to the Democrat-Gazette under the state's public disclosure law.

"Under Chancellor Ambrose's plan no longer would students who plan to attend medical school, veterinary school (like my daughter), dental school, pharmacy or law school have a place at the University... majors that are most common for those students would no longer exist," stated a comment submitted by Jennifer Billingsley, identified in the message as a "concerned parent" of a Henderson State student.

Ambrose's plan states that while degree programs are being phased out, academic disciplines included in those programs are to "continue to be incorporated through the general education and interdisciplinary studies curriculum to enhance outcomes for all students."

Jeff Hankins, a spokesman for the ASU System, in an email on Tuesday said the university's curriculum, with what are to be known as "meta-majors," will "support all of these pre-professional programs."

"The Meta-Majors will broaden career pathways and competencies," Hankins said. "For example, students will utilize math, biology and chemistry to obtain a degree in population health management that can prepare more students to go directly into the workforce or go on to graduate or medical school."

Ambrose's proposal described how the approximately 40 remaining degree programs -- of which about 28 are undergraduate programs -- are being organized into four "meta-majors": Health, Education, and Social Sustainability; Applied Professional Science and Technology; Business Innovation and Entrepreneurship; and Arts and Humanities.

In other comments to trustees, Charles Still, who identified himself as a current Henderson State student, wrote to "plead and encourage you to vote no on getting rid of Henderson's Criminal Justice Degree."

"It is a degree plan that is integral to the furthering of everyone studying law enforcement and is a key stepping stone for those looking to further their education into law schools, and where else than Arkadelphia, and more importantly, where else than Henderson to do just that?" Still wrote.

Criminal justice, like other degree programs being phased out, will continue to be offered for current students and those incoming in the fall.

"We will utilize a combination of instruction on the Henderson campus and in some cases may work with our educational partners," the university states on its website to describe how students will be supported in programs being phased out.

Amanda Ritter-Maggio, in a letter to trustees, identified herself as a member of the university's Alumni Advisory Board and also as a former teacher at Henderson State.

Ritter-Maggio stated she had heard Ambrose speak over the past months. Ambrose became Henderson State's chancellor in November.

"I have heard [Ambose] say time and again, 'You have to decide which parts of Henderson are worth saving.' On Monday, I saw all those parts -- music, English, history, drama, dance, communications, fine art -- wiped away," Ritter-Maggio said.

Ritter-Maggio called it understandable that "HSU needs to tighten its belt if it wants to survive at all."

"However, gutting the majority of the core college faculty is not the answer. How in the world will Henderson be able to attract students without faculty on campus?" Ritter-Maggio said, adding later in the letter that eight members of her immediate family "attended, graduated from, or are currently attending Henderson."

A declaration of "financial exigency," as specified in Henderson State's faculty handbook, allows for the elimination of tenured faculty positions, though some faculty members have said the university has not followed proper procedures.

The 88 positions being eliminated included 21 currently unfilled. Out of the 67 filled positions, 44 are tenured faculty who can keep their jobs through the 2022-23 academic year.

As of the spring semester this year, Henderson State had 237 instructional positions, including 157 full-time positions, 47 part-time or adjunct faculty, 29 staff or administrators who teach and four noninstitutional employees considered a part of the instructional position total, said Tina Hall, the university's vice chancellor of advancement.

As of April 29, Henderson State had 337 total full-time employees, Hall said.

Several other commenters also expressed opposition to the elimination of programs.

Tricia Thibodeaux Baar, in a message to trustees, referred to "my alma mater" and described concerns about students foregoing college.

"I believe this reimagining is a mistake which would create an educational desert in a region where so many students from rural districts desperately need the opportunities associated with traditional college," Baar said. "The shift to a focus on career training (away from intellectual and personal growth which broadens rather than narrowing graduates' choices) would deny these students a chance to experience the wealth of subjects and ideas that so often reveal to them to their future paths."

Hankins, asked whether eliminating academic programs reduces opportunities for students, said in an email: "The academic restructuring is specifically designed to better serve our students and increase the likelihood that they will graduate with a degree that leads to a successful career."

The university "simply can no longer financially support every program," Hankins said.

"Henderson will continue to have very robust degree offerings in areas such as business, health professions, education, aviation, social services, and engineering. These graduates are, and will continue to be, major contributors to the regional and state economy," Hankins said.




https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2022/may/11/letters-to-henderson-state-university-in/

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 11, 2022, 10:48:23 AM
I've also seen a couple of op-ed pieces where faculty members complain that Chancellor Ambrose is making the cuts in an arbitrary and dictatorial manner, without any consultation with faculty.  They acknowledge the need to make cuts, but question whether he is making the right ones.  They didn't have the space to suggest alternatives.

I don't know....  Obviously the Chancellor believes that HSU's best hope for the future is to become a glorified vo-tech school, like the majority of state institutions.  Given overall demographic trends, and the clear decline in student interest in liberal arts majors of all sorts, that sounds plausible.  No sense offering a liberal arts college education in the region if too few students there are asking for it any longer.  I know the region well enough to know that the number of students who honestly want any sort of a liberal arts education there has probably declined to a pretty low level.  Maybe a glorified vo-tech school is all the region can really support at this point.

Still, some of the faculty comments I've seen suggest that some of the liberal arts degrees on the chopping block could have been saved.  I don't know whether this is wishful thinking, or whether they actually have the figures to back it up.  If so, then these cuts could prove ill-considered and destructive, even if there was a legitimate need to take drastic action.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Langue_doc on May 11, 2022, 11:46:30 AM
Lincoln College is closing:

Quote
Lincoln College to Close, Hurt by Pandemic and Ransomware Attack
The predominantly Black college in Illinois will cease operations Friday after 157 years, having failed to raise millions to recover from the pandemic and a cyberattack that originated in Iran.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/09/us/lincoln-college-illinois-closure.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage&section=Education
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 11, 2022, 12:08:19 PM
Quote from: Istiblennius on May 11, 2022, 08:56:51 AM
But the knee jerk assumption that what we've always done is good (I mean, it worked in the 1980s!) and new ideas are bad is troublesome. I do understand that folks are worried about their jobs, but doubling down on what isn't working feels like a way to accelerate that concern.
BUT PROF. JURASSIC HAS BEEN TEACHING PHYSIOLOGY FOR MILLIONS OF YEARS, AND NOW ALL THESE FREAKING "MAMMALS" WANT "WARM-BLOODED PHYSIOLOGY". THAT FAD WILL PASS.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on May 11, 2022, 12:20:30 PM
Quote from: Istiblennius on May 11, 2022, 08:56:51 AM
Glad to know I wasn't too far off in interpreting your arguments.

At our place, we really struggle with a relatively small, but loud group of folks want to cling, tightly, with both hands to courses that students are not taking and often have to be cancelled. Students are frustrated because the popular courses are full, or because they have to rework their schedule around a cancellation. They also express annoyance that we do have some limited variability - 20 History courses about Europe, 1 about Africa and 2 about Latin America seems like 42 choices, but to students it doesn't feel that way. It feels like 3 choices, and most of the space is in courses they don't find relevant. 

Several programs have proposed some innovative strategies to build enrollment by building programs and courses that would attract students. The curriculum process, which requires faculty senate approval (although our provost can override that) often kills outright, or through 1,000 cuts in the form of tabled motions these innovative courses and programs because they could - wait for it - pull resources away from the struggling courses. Granted, not all of the new ideas are awesome and they should be revisited to ensure wise use of tuition dollars. But the knee jerk assumption that what we've always done is good (I mean, it worked in the 1980s!) and new ideas are bad is troublesome. I do understand that folks are worried about their jobs, but doubling down on what isn't working feels like a way to accelerate that concern.

It seems like the issues also fall around lines where faculty either do or do not seem willing to think more broadly about how to "fluff up the aura of their courses" (at the most reductive) or "enhance deep value" (at the best-practices end) by considering "what they've always taught" in the context of globally parallel or perpendicular issues.

I.e., a course that looks at, say, cultural challenges in the Mediterranean up to the time of Alexander could be re-thought without much difficulty into a discussion of, say, "Empires Then and Empire Now," w/r/t the various wars we've seen in the area in the past century (including Ukraine, which has a strong Mediterranean tie via the Black Sea-as-stepping-stone, etc.) The prof would definitely need to do some work updating their own awareness of these more recent issues, but with deep knowledge of the past, that shouldn't be so hard.

I see folks in the arts, music, etc, much more interested in cross-cultural dialogue, because that has always been the norm; it might also make sense for a few more courses to be co-taught, so that (besides taking some of the 'weight' off the primary prof) viewpoints from various disciplines could be hosted and discussed, with a final paper broadly defined to tie them together. I'm thinking of the Medieval and Renaissance course I took on Florence from the 12th-15th c. as an undergrad; it was phenomenal, with no whit of rigor lost.

One friend who does African history is often invited to present to art history courses on the Arts of Africa and the Middle East; his opposite number, who's done interreligious cultural studies in the Fertile Crescent and Eastern Mediterranean up through Late Antiquity complements the team with visuals and texts from Arabic, Jewish, Coptic, and Early Christian sources.

In general, to my mind, the humanities' greatest strengths lie in teaching students to synthesize learning and to attend to nuance in interpretation. Those are the very skills an 'educated populace' needs most in doing the most mundane things in the world...

...like voting...

M.   
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 11, 2022, 02:31:25 PM
As a trailing spouse, I tend to teach whatever falls on the floor, so I am used to scrambling for a lesson plan. Personally, I enjoy teaching outside my subfield----I learn a great deal----but it is not always easy to pick up or redesign a whole new course.   
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on May 11, 2022, 04:56:00 PM
Henderson State's chancellor seems to be taking polly_mer's advice or am I missing something?

http://thefora.org/index.php?topic=2299.0
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 12, 2022, 08:10:52 AM
Quote from: Mobius on May 11, 2022, 04:56:00 PM
Henderson State's chancellor seems to be taking polly_mer's advice or am I missing something?

http://thefora.org/index.php?topic=2299.0


Some of the last posts that polly shared with us, almost exactly a year ago....

On the second page of the thread ruralguy expressed a concern that a liberal arts education would cease to be available to anybody not privileged enough to go to a handful of elite colleges that still offered it.  Polly's reply:


QuoteI don't see it as that bleak, Ruralguy, unless elite now includes places like New Mexico State and University of Wisconsin-Platteville.

I see a lot of consolidation for programs.  Yeah, not all the directional states will offer all of astronomy, chemistry, physics, English, history, and philosophy majors, but all of those programs will be available in the state for students, not just at the flagships.


Problem is, HSU was one of the last places in our state where a liberal arts education was still available.  And now that choice is about to go away there.  Maybe the loss is indeed inevitable, but it will be no less of a loss for the region.

The previous heads of HSU who botched things so badly have a lot to answer for.  Had they not bungled everything, HSU might at least have had a managed decline, where the losses wouldn't have been quite so abrupt and extreme.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 12, 2022, 08:21:59 AM
Polly had very good points, but she was like a lot (but certainly not all) STEM people in her attitude toward the liberal arts, humanities in particular. 

For Polly, it was simply not that serious a loss.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on May 12, 2022, 08:32:30 AM
I don't know how productive it is to speak of people who are not around (though I kind of hope she comes back at some point, even though we disagreed a bit on these issues and even more on social issues). However, I think she'd probably say something along the lines of the "intrinsic value" of the liberal arts being beside the main point: feet are moving in directions away from most of the liberal arts (save for where it is absolutely required, and even there, the requirements are generally being reduced). I don't fully agree with that sentiment, but at some point if enrollments are literally 0, what do you do? You can give people full teaching credit for something that's not enrolled, yet what are these faculty going to teach if their specialties get *nobody* (maybe a bit more than nobody on good days).  I should be clear that I am thinking of one liberal arts area at my college that is in serious jeopardy (not the fun Mayim Bialik kind).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 12, 2022, 08:44:25 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on May 12, 2022, 08:32:30 AM
I don't know how productive it is to speak of people who are not around (though I kind of hope she comes back at some point, even though we disagreed a bit on these issues and even more on social issues). However, I think she'd probably say something along the lines of the "intrinsic value" of the liberal arts being beside the main point: feet are moving in directions away from most of the liberal arts (save for where it is absolutely required, and even there, the requirements are generally being reduced).

For those who feel the intrinsic value of <whatever> is *obvious, how is that different from the religious practice of trying to pass on one's faith to the next generation?  (My use of "whatever" is because the argument isn't necessarily restricted to any specific area.)


(*Meaning it should be automatically supported without any additional justification beyond its historically attributed importance.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on May 12, 2022, 11:31:09 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on May 12, 2022, 08:32:30 AM
I don't know how productive it is to speak of people who are not around (though I kind of hope she comes back at some point, even though we disagreed a bit on these issues and even more on social issues). However, I think she'd probably say something along the lines of the "intrinsic value" of the liberal arts being beside the main point: feet are moving in directions away from most of the liberal arts (save for where it is absolutely required, and even there, the requirements are generally being reduced). I don't fully agree with that sentiment, but at some point if enrollments are literally 0, what do you do? You can give people full teaching credit for something that's not enrolled, yet what are these faculty going to teach if their specialties get *nobody* (maybe a bit more than nobody on good days).  I should be clear that I am thinking of one liberal arts area at my college that is in serious jeopardy (not the fun Mayim Bialik kind).

That was one of the sub-plots of "The Chair" in that a few faculty members had a lot less students in their classes compared to other faculty in the department. Some of this is just branding, too. I teach in a discipline where a few sections of certain courses fill up. You can get similar courses under another discipline struggling to even meet the minimum. Part of the problem is we're so territorial over our disciplines that coming up with a real plan to shore up programs doesn't gain traction.

I also don't knock if the checkbox approach doesn't work these days, or the options in the box are awful. I imagine part of it is the latter. But changing any of that is difficult when the loudest faculty tend to shut down discussion on change because they think their courses are the ones vital for a "liberal arts" education.

I also didn't want to stir up thoughts on polly in general. Just thought her observation was interesting as I was browsing through older threads.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 12, 2022, 11:58:42 AM
It was a thread worth revisiting.  Thank you for the link.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 12, 2022, 01:28:00 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on May 12, 2022, 08:32:30 AM
I don't know how productive it is to speak of people who are not around (though I kind of hope she comes back at some point, even though we disagreed a bit on these issues and even more on social issues). However, I think she'd probably say something along the lines of the "intrinsic value" of the liberal arts being beside the main point: feet are moving in directions away from most of the liberal arts (save for where it is absolutely required, and even there, the requirements are generally being reduced). I don't fully agree with that sentiment, but at some point if enrollments are literally 0, what do you do?

That is exactly what Polly said.

And her point was perfectly valid (although sometimes the mask would slip and a wee bit of STEMy chauvinism would peek through----her evals were not completely unbiased).

I simply felt that it was something we as a society, and we as academia, should try to combat----because many of those feet were walking away based on misinformation and stereotypes----but there is generally resignation on the subject of lib arts education.

I actually talk to Polly from time to time on Reddit.  She is surprisingly mellow over there, and she was very gracious when she found out my job had been eliminated.  I told her she should come back but I think her feelings were hurt.

Polly, if you are reading, come back.  We miss you.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on May 12, 2022, 04:44:46 PM
We miss her, but will be critical. So, feelings could get hurt again. Perhaps we all need to deal with each other a bit more civilly.

Anyway, at my school, I would be open to discussing how to save certain fields. But it almost certainly means combining departments, and then people really will have feelings hurt.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 13, 2022, 06:15:54 AM
Quote from: Istiblennius on May 11, 2022, 08:56:51 AM

[. . .]

Several programs have proposed some innovative strategies to build enrollment by building programs and courses that would attract students. The curriculum process, which requires faculty senate approval (although our provost can override that) often kills outright, or through 1,000 cuts in the form of tabled motions these innovative courses and programs because they could - wait for it - pull resources away from the struggling courses. Granted, not all of the new ideas are awesome and they should be revisited to ensure wise use of tuition dollars. But the knee jerk assumption that what we've always done is good (I mean, it worked in the 1980s!) and new ideas are bad is troublesome. I do understand that folks are worried about their jobs, but doubling down on what isn't working feels like a way to accelerate that concern.

Too many faculty at struggling colleges and universities prefer that everyone be marched to the gallows together instead of a few people getting hanged separately. These are generally the same folks who have constructed their self-identities entirely around being "professor of X."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on May 13, 2022, 06:45:59 AM
Yes, I am afraid too many people think "I'm not so afraid of my own death as long as I get the pleasure of seeing every one else die."
Plus, there's the usual sense that the administration is evil, and collaborators must be punished or at best, ignored.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 13, 2022, 06:53:02 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 12, 2022, 01:28:00 PM

And her point was perfectly valid (although sometimes the mask would slip and a wee bit of STEMy chauvinism would peek through----her evals were not completely unbiased).

I simply felt that it was something we as a society, and we as academia, should try to combat----because many of those feet were walking away based on misinformation and stereotypes----but there is generally resignation on the subject of lib arts education.


I'd just like to point out that some of the reason for "STEMy chauvinism", especially from the TE part of STEM, is that changing *what gets taught and how it gets taught is not an option; it's essential for doing the job. So that tends to limit the sympathy available for people who complain about having to adapt over time. (And even in STEM, people have seen good programs cancelled for low enrollment, but you just have to roll with it. Arguing that somehow these programs (and/or courses) should be entitled to continue regardless is unrealistic.)


(*Probably about 90% of the technology I teach about didn't exist a couple of decades ago, let alone when I was a student. I've had to create labs for courses in areas where I never studied, as those areas were in their infancy back then. I've created courses that couldn't have existed a decade ago. And so on.)

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 13, 2022, 07:13:49 AM
As I posted, STEMy chauvinism based on misinformation and stereotypes.  Well done, Marshy.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 13, 2022, 07:23:10 AM
IHE:The Unsustainable Rise in College Costs (https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/higher-ed-gamma/unsustainable-rise-college-costs?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=b993fc74b9-DNU_2021_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-b993fc74b9-233905925&mc_cid=b993fc74b9&mc_eid=49ddf02a1f)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 13, 2022, 07:23:46 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 13, 2022, 07:13:49 AM
As I posted, STEMy chauvinism based on misinformation and stereotypes.  Well done, Marshy.

If you're implying that I think all humanities people are like that, or that no *STEM people are, you're mistaken. But in my experience whenever there is big upheaval, the loudest voices opposing it tend to be the people who have been the most resistant to any kind of change in better times.


(*I knew a computer science prof who didn't have a website for courses; i.e. everything was handed out on paper. There are dinosaurs in every field. He also walked out of a workshop for the department about creating learning objectives for courses.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on May 13, 2022, 07:53:25 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 13, 2022, 07:23:10 AM
IHE:The Unsustainable Rise in College Costs (https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/higher-ed-gamma/unsustainable-rise-college-costs?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=b993fc74b9-DNU_2021_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-b993fc74b9-233905925&mc_cid=b993fc74b9&mc_eid=49ddf02a1f)

I thought that was annoying. Plenty of good ideas, and the analysis was fair, so not terrible, but any article that says we need to "think outside the box" -- when people have been saying that for as long as I remember and still nothing much changes -- deserves some derision.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on May 13, 2022, 09:03:10 AM
I would say there is difference between the nature of the content in Humanities courses and those in the Sciences/STEM. The Humanities are quite often focused on what has happened in the past; when looking at what is occurring now, it's often through that lens, so that a kind of retrograde awareness of change is the norm, and personality types who like to take settled content as a basis from which to look at change would be attracted to that work. The future is not so much in their remit, and projecting too far forward is seen as unjustified extrapolation (and something of a time-waster, since we still haven't really caught up to understanding the past, ever, as fully as we might). And new findings often have to be evaluated carefully because there's more pressure to have a shiny, new 'take' on something, and revisionary history is fraught with issues of reliability and credibility, making the whole project more backwards-facing.

The Sciences/STEM, on the other hand, are most often looking at the future from what is known in the present as well as the past. Those who like to play with possibility and probability are more drawn to those projects, and expect to play catch-up every year just in order to stay on top of the newest findings and build on them. One re-drafts a course reflexively--one person I worked for had me maintain a set of files for each of the courses they were down to teach over a three-year cycle, with notes and articles added each time something new came up that they needed to add; they'd take those files home over the summer to re-work the syllabi for the upcoming year's courses as a matter of habit.

Having done my own work in the one, and done EA support work in the other, I'd also say they could cross-pollinate each other more than they do, but the very contentual differences may either draw individuals with one or the other proclivity towards that type of work, amplifying the difference, and leading to very different responses to the urgent need for change based on those typologies.

I don't think either is 'good' or 'bad,' except as they keep forward movement from happening when it is needed to keep a campus sustainable and open. I've seen avid humanities scholars (I'm sitting in our presentations now by medievalists who are doing cool stuff with digital learning and imaging, for example) and I've seen stodgy, dried-up scientists, just as much as I've seen the obverse of those two coins.

As in dance (my own go-to image) one must have both the balance to maintain a position, and the agility, grace, and fluidity to be able to move through that position to the next one.

Being nimble is the virtue in those cases.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 13, 2022, 09:36:12 AM
I've tried to explain to some people.  It does not take.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pgher on May 13, 2022, 05:47:15 PM
Quote from: mamselle on May 13, 2022, 09:03:10 AM
I would say there is difference between the nature of the content in Humanities courses and those in the Sciences/STEM. The Humanities are quite often focused on what has happened in the past; when looking at what is occurring now, it's often through that lens, so that a kind of retrograde awareness of change is the norm, and personality types who like to take settled content as a basis from which to look at change would be attracted to that work. The future is not so much in their remit, and projecting too far forward is seen as unjustified extrapolation (and something of a time-waster, since we still haven't really caught up to understanding the past, ever, as fully as we might). And new findings often have to be evaluated carefully because there's more pressure to have a shiny, new 'take' on something, and revisionary history is fraught with issues of reliability and credibility, making the whole project more backwards-facing.

The Sciences/STEM, on the other hand, are most often looking at the future from what is known in the present as well as the past. Those who like to play with possibility and probability are more drawn to those projects, and expect to play catch-up every year just in order to stay on top of the newest findings and build on them. One re-drafts a course reflexively--one person I worked for had me maintain a set of files for each of the courses they were down to teach over a three-year cycle, with notes and articles added each time something new came up that they needed to add; they'd take those files home over the summer to re-work the syllabi for the upcoming year's courses as a matter of habit.

Having done my own work in the one, and done EA support work in the other, I'd also say they could cross-pollinate each other more than they do, but the very contentual differences may either draw individuals with one or the other proclivity towards that type of work, amplifying the difference, and leading to very different responses to the urgent need for change based on those typologies.

I don't think either is 'good' or 'bad,' except as they keep forward movement from happening when it is needed to keep a campus sustainable and open. I've seen avid humanities scholars (I'm sitting in our presentations now by medievalists who are doing cool stuff with digital learning and imaging, for example) and I've seen stodgy, dried-up scientists, just as much as I've seen the obverse of those two coins.

As in dance (my own go-to image) one must have both the balance to maintain a position, and the agility, grace, and fluidity to be able to move through that position to the next one.

Being nimble is the virtue in those cases.

M.

Well said. Especially the insight that different fields attract people with different attitudes and desires. I'm in engineering and hang around here to try to learn that other perspective. I may have the same nominal title as someone in literature or history, but we don't have the same job or see the world in the same way.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 14, 2022, 06:19:30 AM
Quote from: pgher on May 13, 2022, 05:47:15 PM
Quote from: mamselle on May 13, 2022, 09:03:10 AM
I would say there is difference between the nature of the content in Humanities courses and those in the Sciences/STEM. The Humanities are quite often focused on what has happened in the past; when looking at what is occurring now, it's often through that lens, so that a kind of retrograde awareness of change is the norm, and personality types who like to take settled content as a basis from which to look at change would be attracted to that work. The future is not so much in their remit, and projecting too far forward is seen as unjustified extrapolation (and something of a time-waster, since we still haven't really caught up to understanding the past, ever, as fully as we might). And new findings often have to be evaluated carefully because there's more pressure to have a shiny, new 'take' on something, and revisionary history is fraught with issues of reliability and credibility, making the whole project more backwards-facing.

The Sciences/STEM, on the other hand, are most often looking at the future from what is known in the present as well as the past. Those who like to play with possibility and probability are more drawn to those projects, and expect to play catch-up every year just in order to stay on top of the newest findings and build on them. One re-drafts a course reflexively--one person I worked for had me maintain a set of files for each of the courses they were down to teach over a three-year cycle, with notes and articles added each time something new came up that they needed to add; they'd take those files home over the summer to re-work the syllabi for the upcoming year's courses as a matter of habit.

Having done my own work in the one, and done EA support work in the other, I'd also say they could cross-pollinate each other more than they do, but the very contentual differences may either draw individuals with one or the other proclivity towards that type of work, amplifying the difference, and leading to very different responses to the urgent need for change based on those typologies.

I don't think either is 'good' or 'bad,' except as they keep forward movement from happening when it is needed to keep a campus sustainable and open. I've seen avid humanities scholars (I'm sitting in our presentations now by medievalists who are doing cool stuff with digital learning and imaging, for example) and I've seen stodgy, dried-up scientists, just as much as I've seen the obverse of those two coins.

As in dance (my own go-to image) one must have both the balance to maintain a position, and the agility, grace, and fluidity to be able to move through that position to the next one.

Being nimble is the virtue in those cases.

M.

Well said. Especially the insight that different fields attract people with different attitudes and desires. I'm in engineering and hang around here to try to learn that other perspective. I may have the same nominal title as someone in literature or history, but we don't have the same job or see the world in the same way.

Which is the whole point of having more than just a handful of fields of knowledge and disciplines represented and taught at an institution of higher learning!  But at many college campuses some of these different perspectives on the world are being squeezed out.  This represents a real loss.  No less of a loss just because you can't put a price tag on them to quantify their value.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on May 14, 2022, 11:13:10 AM
I don't criticize the value of any particular field, but when push comes to shove, what do you do if a discipline has literally zero interest and some of your faculty were only hired in the discipline that has zero students?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on May 14, 2022, 11:57:01 AM
During a sabbatical, I picked up a Master's degree in a more or less parallel field to what I was hired to do. This allows me to teach in 2 programs and gives me some flexibility in the event one of them crashes and burns.

My best suggestion is to be a specialist in 1 field and enough of a generalist in another that zero enrollment does not turn into a career death sentence.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on May 14, 2022, 12:10:46 PM
QuoteBut at many college campuses some of these different perspectives on the world are being squeezed out.  This represents a real loss.  No less of a loss just because you can't put a price tag on them to quantify their value.

Alas, we can quantify their value: If students are willing to pay less than what is necessary to keep courses or a field alive -- it's negative!.

Letting such course and fields die is a solution, not a problem.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 14, 2022, 12:18:46 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on May 14, 2022, 11:13:10 AM
I don't criticize the value of any particular field, but when push comes to shove, what do you do if a discipline has literally zero interest and some of your faculty were only hired in the discipline that has zero students?

You have two choices.

The obvious and most logical choice is to eliminate the moribund program.  And I have never seen anyone argue that we should let dead limbs just hang on the tree.  In the end, we will probably have to just cut Italian, Latin, medieval history, and a great many English literature classes.

We could also work to recruit students for and promote those programs, we could actually learn about these disciplines rather than make ignorant blanket statements, and we could stop with the hyperbole about job placement disasters.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on May 14, 2022, 01:45:10 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on May 14, 2022, 11:57:01 AM
During a sabbatical, I picked up a Master's degree in a more or less parallel field to what I was hired to do. This allows me to teach in 2 programs and gives me some flexibility in the event one of them crashes and burns.

My best suggestion is to be a specialist in 1 field and enough of a generalist in another that zero enrollment does not turn into a career death sentence.

Your university allows for moving tenured/senior faculty between academic units without the approval of the faculty to whom you would join? (or mandates it in a hypothetical retrenchment as long as the faculty member in question holds minimum qualifications?)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 14, 2022, 04:15:49 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 14, 2022, 12:18:46 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on May 14, 2022, 11:13:10 AM
I don't criticize the value of any particular field, but when push comes to shove, what do you do if a discipline has literally zero interest and some of your faculty were only hired in the discipline that has zero students?

You have two choices.

The obvious and most logical choice is to eliminate the moribund program.  And I have never seen anyone argue that we should let dead limbs just hang on the tree.  In the end, we will probably have to just cut Italian, Latin, medieval history, and a great many English literature classes.

We could also work to recruit students for and promote those programs, we could actually learn about these disciplines rather than make ignorant blanket statements, and we could stop with the hyperbole about job placement disasters.

Honest question, no snark intended:

How and where do you recruit students for these programs since they seem to be thin on the ground? And, if these programs at other institutions are in a similar situation, so you're all competing for the same students, how likely is it that you can all succeed?

If the problem is one of marketing or branding, then there should be some institutions who are doing it right and being successful. But if there has been a cultural shift that makes something seem much less important, (such as learning to read and write in cursive), it's not clear that the tide can be turned, no matter what approach is taken.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on May 14, 2022, 05:34:08 PM
Recruiting is one of those aspects of higher ed that folks are confused about. How do you get people to take French or Italian, for example? How do you get them interested in philosophy? How long do you wait to determine if it's not working, and you're back at the same place?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dinomom on May 14, 2022, 06:17:34 PM
Maybe institute or re-institute a language requirement? Then everyone has to take a year or two of classes, maybe some students get hooked?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 14, 2022, 06:34:31 PM
Humanities majors do fine on the job market (we have had that discussion) and we tend to get very smart and very good students (having taught a great many engineering, education, and business students I can say this with confidence) but our outreach is terrible and it is difficult for us to do what business schools do in regards to internships and job fairs.  We should have been working on these things for decades by this point; it is probably too late now to play catch-up----but we could try with a little help from our friends.

On the flipside, I have had good luck simply telling my best student writers that they should major or minor in English.  Students are not always convinced but, yeah, some do actually sign up for the major or take additional writing classes.  And if it weren't for the negative publicity, I think a great many more people would consider the humanities.

Professors are not trained to be marketers, and we have our hands full already, so how are we supposed to rebrand and recruit in the first place?  This is where I would love to see a little more support from our administrators---instead of hiring "program management and evaluation" companies to tell us how to run our universities for hundreds of thousands of dollars or re-sodding the football field for hundreds of thousands of dollars, how about hiring marketers to save our dying majors?  I would love to get more support from colleagues in other departments.  And it would be great if humanities professors could actually turn their creativity toward spreading the good word.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on May 14, 2022, 06:47:27 PM
Its the fact that we have a language requirement that led me to say that some languages we carry don't get any enrollment. These days, if you carry, say, 5 languages that were "popular" in the 70's, only 2 or 3 get any significant enrollment. Any campaigning to change the languages is vehemently opposed by the language departments, no matter how many facts are presented regarding interest in Russia and the Far East (and Mideast). Maybe, every so often, they can be convinced to hire an adjunct in those areas, but never a TT position! So, rather than trying to recruit in dead areas, its better to change the areas to things people are interested in (and believe me, that goes for sciences too).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 15, 2022, 06:09:51 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 14, 2022, 06:34:31 PM
Humanities majors do fine on the job market (we have had that discussion) and we tend to get very smart and very good students (having taught a great many engineering, education, and business students I can say this with confidence) but our outreach is terrible and it is difficult for us to do what business schools do in regards to internships and job fairs.  We should have been working on these things for decades by this point; it is probably too late now to play catch-up----but we could try with a little help from our friends.

On the flipside, I have had good luck simply telling my best student writers that they should major or minor in English.  Students are not always convinced but, yeah, some do actually sign up for the major or take additional writing classes. 

But this is only going to work for students who are

Is that pool so big? I always think of recruiting as having to happen in high school. (And in STEM, a lot of outreach to high school students is before their final year to encourage them to keep taking all of the math courses, since if they don't they won't have the prerequisites for some STEM programs. Once they're already students at university, it would be a tiny fraction that would transfer into STEM. At most, some students will tranfer from one STEM program into another.)

Quote
And if it weren't for the negative publicity, I think a great many more people would consider the humanities.

Professors are not trained to be marketers, and we have our hands full already, so how are we supposed to rebrand and recruit in the first place?  This is where I would love to see a little more support from our administrators---instead of hiring "program management and evaluation" companies to tell us how to run our universities for hundreds of thousands of dollars or re-sodding the football field for hundreds of thousands of dollars, how about hiring marketers to save our dying majors? 

But how would they do this? I honestly don't see where the untapped pool of potential students is. I can't see high school students that are planning on either STEM or some professional program considering something else in any significant numbers. A lot of these students have been interested in something or other for years already.


Quote
I would love to get more support from colleagues in other departments. 

I never try to dissuade students from something they're passionate about. But by the same token, I'm not going to try and direct students to any program that they're not really keen on. They'd be better to quit school for a year or two and work, and come back if and when they know what they want to study.

I may be able to provide some advice, but I can't provide motivation.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 15, 2022, 09:57:31 AM
Quote
I'm not going to try and direct students to any program that they're not really keen on.

You are the master of the strawman, Marshy.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on May 15, 2022, 10:49:56 AM
It is amazing how much of a black eye liberal arts gets due to the perception it's just full of SJWs who don't want work. Is that the main beef people have with it?

However, it's also clear enrollments are dying in liberal arts fields at a lot of places. How do we get the STEM and business students interested?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on May 15, 2022, 11:44:56 AM
They'll only take if it (in significant numbers) if it relates to what they are doing. So, I can see Business students (and government) being interested in certain languages. Everyone should be interested in writing and speaking (including STEM).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on May 15, 2022, 12:15:08 PM
I majored for CS for a year and public speaking was a gen ed requirement for us instead of a check-the-box option for that gen ed category. The second course of the writing sequence was tailored to science.

Most institutions should just cut down on gen ed options and just make certain majors take specific liberal arts courses. Social science students likely need stats instead of college algebra, for example. Maybe have a "tailored to major" ethics course housed in philosophy. This could help recruit students to majors. Don't know if there would be enough interest to sustain a major, but could sustain a minor.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 15, 2022, 01:24:03 PM
Having requirements only works if the students have already agreed that they want a particular education and will accept the faculty's judgement on which courses are necessary to achieve that education.

Instituting requirements on students who have not done so is not going to work. Trying it is more likely to make them leave the school than take classes they don't want.

If a school is struggling financially, it should be helpful to faculty to know what the students think they are buying. Then making departmental staffing and curricular decisions that are consistent with what the students expect will lead to continued existence. There is some wiggle room at schools not in dire financial straits.

It should not be too difficult to persuade some students that they want a well-rounded education. If you get that buy-in, can you deliver on the promise?

Of course faculty want to keep their departments going. That is true at every school. Having an attractive college experience on offer is key. Faculty in a department are usually quite knowledgeable about the attractions of the subjects they teach. But not all are as adept as required to step out of their perspective and present the attraction from the perspective of the 17-year-old who would get a lot out of it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 15, 2022, 01:30:21 PM
From my admittedly limited experience, there are plenty of students who would find the humanities interesting but they have been told repeatedly that they will be "underemployed" or even unemployed if they major in a humanities field. 

My father was greatly relieved when I dropped music as a major, but he was re-irritated and concerned when I declared an English major.  Then one of his associates told him that English majors wrote "great letters and memos" and my father grudgingly approved of the degree.   By the time I went to graduate school he was fully supportive because I was so miserable as a businessman, but he told me in my final year of the PhD, "I just don't understand what you do."

All of my old music major cohorts are making their living as professional musicians, too.  None of them have starved.

I think the biggest detriment to the liberal arts are the things parents tell their children around the dinner table.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 15, 2022, 01:49:57 PM
Quote from: Mobius on May 15, 2022, 10:49:56 AM
It is amazing how much of a black eye liberal arts gets due to the perception it's just full of SJWs who don't want work. Is that the main beef people have with it?

However, it's also clear enrollments are dying in liberal arts fields at a lot of places. How do we get the STEM and business students interested?

Are you talking of taking individual courses, or of changing majors? The first may be possible; the second is (in my experience) highly unlikely.

And with electives, the courses have to sound more interesting than most of the choices in their own discipline, which is tough.

If students have to take "technical" (i.e. in the major) and "non-technical (i.e. outside the major) electives, they'll often go for the easiest non-technical electives they can find.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 15, 2022, 02:45:00 PM
Remember, we do not want or need every damn student in the place, just those who are honestly interested.  I think business is going to be the dominant major for the foreseeable future, which is fine by me, but I not want to see students who would otherwise consider the liberal arts to be dissuaded by impression and misinformation. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on May 15, 2022, 03:45:10 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 15, 2022, 01:49:57 PM
Quote from: Mobius on May 15, 2022, 10:49:56 AM
It is amazing how much of a black eye liberal arts gets due to the perception it's just full of SJWs who don't want work. Is that the main beef people have with it?

However, it's also clear enrollments are dying in liberal arts fields at a lot of places. How do we get the STEM and business students interested?

Are you talking of taking individual courses, or of changing majors? The first may be possible; the second is (in my experience) highly unlikely.

The latter is the prevailing thought at my place, especially using gen ed to recruit majors. However, most attempts to change curricula to make it appealing is shot down. Don't know why "Intro to ..:" has such a hold on folks.

And with electives, the courses have to sound more interesting than most of the choices in their own discipline, which is tough.

If students have to take "technical" (i.e. in the major) and "non-technical (i.e. outside the major) electives, they'll often go for the easiest non-technical electives they can find.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on May 16, 2022, 12:27:02 AM
What I don't get is how a lot of these business programs get a free pass, when it comes to scrutinizing programs.

EVERYTHING is a business. When everything is a business, every and any business school graduate who gets a job--any job--is a "job placement." A business school curriculum is a very generalized curriculum to supposedly satisfy the workforce needs of EVERY business. Common sense tells me that is impossible. Yet, kids and their parents flock to business programs thinking that a business degree* is a practical degree that leads to a job. Well, duh. A business degree leads to a job, because EVERYTHING is a business. There are graduates of our business school who are receptionists at real estate offices, entry level help desk for IT companies, telemarketers, night managers of a big box retail store or hotel, sole proprietors of their start-up lawn service, used car salesmen, and other jobs that where one does not really need a business degree to get a job and be successful. And the business school can call them "placements" or "working alumni in the business field" or "gainfully employed" because EVERYTHING is a business.

But when you try to apply the same logic to Humanities programs, where the graduates are receptionists at real estate offices, entry level help desk for IT companies, telemarketers, night managers of a big box retail store or hotel, sole proprietors of their start-up lawn service, used car salesmen, and other jobs that where one does not really need a Humanities degree to get a job and be successful, all of a sudden those students are seen as unemployed in their field of training in the Humanities.

What's even more unfair is when those aforementioned graduates do go on and get high paying jobs in finance, business administration, marketing/sales, or start their own successful company, etc. they are seen as Humanities folk who succeeded despite their Humanities background and the successful person's Humanities degree program is given no credit for their graduate's success (vs if they had a business degree where the business school can take credit for preparing their graduates for these important high-paying jobs).

I have a similar rant for IT programs, but this post is getting too long.


* I am excluding Accounting degrees in this discussion.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 16, 2022, 04:13:55 AM
Quote from: lightning on May 16, 2022, 12:27:02 AM
What I don't get is how a lot of these business programs get a free pass, when it comes to scrutinizing programs.

EVERYTHING is a business. When everything is a business, every and any business school graduate who gets a job--any job--is a "job placement."
..
There are graduates of our business school who are receptionists at real estate offices, entry level help desk for IT companies, telemarketers, night managers of a big box retail store or hotel, sole proprietors of their start-up lawn service, used car salesmen, and other jobs that where one does not really need a business degree to get a job and be successful. And the business school can call them "placements" or "working alumni in the business field" or "gainfully employed" because EVERYTHING is a business.

But when you try to apply the same logic to Humanities programs, where the graduates are receptionists at real estate offices, entry level help desk for IT companies, telemarketers, night managers of a big box retail store or hotel, sole proprietors of their start-up lawn service, used car salesmen, and other jobs that where one does not really need a Humanities degree to get a job and be successful, all of a sudden those students are seen as unemployed in their field of training in the Humanities.

What's even more unfair is when those aforementioned graduates do go on and get high paying jobs in finance, business administration, marketing/sales, or start their own successful company, etc. they are seen as Humanities folk who succeeded despite their Humanities background and the successful person's Humanities degree program is given no credit for their graduate's success (vs if they had a business degree where the business school can take credit for preparing their graduates for these important high-paying jobs).

This is a fair comment about double standards. And institutions do play pretty fast and loose with "employment of graduates" criteria and statistics.

My concern in regard to issues like this, like the "adjunct porn" stories, is the self-reported disillusionment of graduates of any program. (There may be some bias in which of these get sought out and published.)

What I want to know is the proportion of graduates who are satisfied with their outcomes; salary doesn't really matter as long as people are content.

Quote
I have a similar rant for IT programs, but this post is getting too long.


I look forward to hearing it. (And any others as well.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 23, 2022, 11:02:10 AM
For most colleges and universities, "business" is the bucket that catches the unmotivated and underprepared applicants that schools need to enroll in order to keep the lights on. These are not people capable of majoring in mathematics, chemistry, or history. Hence the popularity of majors like "sports management" within business departments.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on May 24, 2022, 06:28:52 AM
Quote from: spork on May 23, 2022, 11:02:10 AM
For most colleges and universities, "business" is the bucket that catches the unmotivated and underprepared applicants that schools need to enroll in order to keep the lights on. These are not people capable of majoring in mathematics, chemistry, or history. Hence the popularity of majors like "sports management" within business departments.

Agreed. And also the catch for students who started off in Engineering, flunked out, but whose parents insist they major in something "useful."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 24, 2022, 07:36:07 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on May 24, 2022, 06:28:52 AM
Quote from: spork on May 23, 2022, 11:02:10 AM
For most colleges and universities, "business" is the bucket that catches the unmotivated and underprepared applicants that schools need to enroll in order to keep the lights on. These are not people capable of majoring in mathematics, chemistry, or history. Hence the popularity of majors like "sports management" within business departments.

Agreed. And also the catch for students who started off in Engineering, flunked out, but whose parents insist they major in something "useful."

Although I'm tempted to share you two's prejudices regarding business majors, I don't think they're entirely fair.  Business majors also include many first-generation students who are trying to get an education but come from backgrounds that have given them very little sense of the possibilities out there.  If they don't want to teach school, work with sick people, or go into IT, they major in business because that's the only other thing they know about that requires a college degree. 

I talked to a student of my acquaintance who is majoring in business for that reason only a couple of evenings ago.  She's not an idiot or a goof-off, and she wasn't raised by idiots.  She's very bright and, near as I can tell, hardworking.  She doesn't really want to major in business.  But again, if you don't much like computers, and you don't want to teach or work with sick people, what else is there?  Beauty college?  Welding school?  With the demise of liberal arts in most smaller colleges, there's really not much else to major in for students in many parts of the country.  Their family backgrounds did not make them aware of wider possibilities, and cutbacks in the offerings of regional colleges mean that these places can no longer offer more.

This is why the end of liberal arts at regional school like Henderson State University saddens so many people.  A generation ago, when I was in college, a student who was interested in higher education could go to small schools and be made aware of a lot more out there than what he or she had grown up with.  There was at least a chance of a student finding something and going with it.  That's essentially what happened to me.  Even though I found myself regretting getting sucked into a PhD program, I'm still glad I had that chance at getting a wider education as an undergrad.  But those chances are gone now for students in our region.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on May 24, 2022, 07:50:19 AM
There are many majors offered by business schools. I remember seeing some "Risk Management" majors. That seemed very focused. More recently I've seen "Business Analytics." I think even the "Sports Management" majors are in the business school. Many of those students seem very content to get a B or a C, but I don't really notice much difference between them and other students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 24, 2022, 08:35:58 AM
At my university, business is a very competitive program; the incoming grade requirement is higher than for most other programs, so it's not possible for people to go there after they've failed out of anything else. (Also, for students in business, if they fail they can't get back in.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on May 24, 2022, 08:38:10 AM
Didn't Octo used to compare programs that had more difficult required accountancy courses and those with fewer such as a basis for distinction?

Seems like that would make a difference.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: waterboy on May 24, 2022, 10:30:26 AM
QuoteBut again, if you don't much like computers, and you don't want to teach or work with sick people, what else is there?  Beauty college?  Welding school?

For those of us in the sciences, hell there's LOTS of other choices. Also, the applied design fields such as architecture and landscape architecture. And many more. You're being awfully narrow minded there.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 24, 2022, 10:31:35 AM
I've taught a great deal of technical and business writing, and I can honestly say that I like my business students.  Many of them are very bright and honestly enthusiastic about business, but just as many are incredibly dull people with no real aim except to be employed somewhere.  Nice but mediocre.

I would say that I see a difference between accounting (very smart), marketing (smart and creative), finance (very good at math but not reliably good at other things) and other majors enfolded within business.

Again, the problem is not with business as a major; the problem is that so many students see business as the only option given business concepts like ROI and such.  And again, this is the public perception of the humanities degrees-----anyone seen that wretched movie "Tully?"  It's bad, don't watch it.  The significance here is that the main protagonist (a disgruntled housewife) regrets her decision to be an "English lit major" at one point in the story because, of course, she could do nothing with it other than to raise her frightening children.  It's a throwaway line in the movie, but there it is.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 24, 2022, 02:12:14 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 24, 2022, 10:31:35 AM
the main protagonist (a disgruntled housewife) regrets her decision to be an "English lit major" at one point in the story because, of course, she could do nothing with it other than to raise her frightening children.  It's a throwaway line in the movie, but there it is.

Someone is likely to claim that English lit also leaves one poorly prepared to raise frightening children.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on May 24, 2022, 02:42:31 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 24, 2022, 02:12:14 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 24, 2022, 10:31:35 AM
the main protagonist (a disgruntled housewife) regrets her decision to be an "English lit major" at one point in the story because, of course, she could do nothing with it other than to raise her frightening children.  It's a throwaway line in the movie, but there it is.

Someone is likely to claim that English lit also leaves one poorly prepared to raise frightening children.

Apparently, Economics is great preparation for raising children! Just recently, I chanced upon a video talk by David Friedman, Milton Friedman's son, recounting that when he and has sister were about 12 years old and traveling by train from Chicago to the West Coast -- three days, two nights -- Milton asked his kids whether they would rather travel sleeper or get the extra spending money saved by using coach. The kids said they'd rather have the cash.

I've tried to raise my daughter in similar fashion, but didn't have quite the panache that Milton had! My daughter does understand, and consequently despises, trade-offs.

Don't know how many here are in their child bearing years, but if any, do look at economist Emily Oster's Expecting Better, about pregnancy. You will feel better having read it. My wife, the obstetrician, used to hand it out to her patients.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 24, 2022, 03:19:42 PM
Quote from: waterboy on May 24, 2022, 10:30:26 AM
QuoteBut again, if you don't much like computers, and you don't want to teach or work with sick people, what else is there?  Beauty college?  Welding school?

For those of us in the sciences, hell there's LOTS of other choices. Also, the applied design fields such as architecture and landscape architecture. And many more. You're being awfully narrow minded there.

Let me clarify that these are not MY thoughts on the subject.  It's what I see students apparently thinking because a) they're first-generation students who haven't been made aware of what  more is out there and b) the nearest college--the only one in an hour's radius of home--doesn't offer much more than this relative handful of areas of study.  Sure they know in a general way that there are lots of other skilled professions out there, but it's like these things exist in another world from what they know.  And they can't seem to see any bridge into that world.  The region's colleges and their pared-down offerings don't seem to offer such a bridge.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on May 24, 2022, 03:27:37 PM
Yes. Islands aren't just constructed of small land masses surrounded by water.

There are other kinds of islands that are just as hard to get off of without the right boat or bridge.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 25, 2022, 05:26:23 AM
Quote from: apl68 on May 24, 2022, 07:36:07 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on May 24, 2022, 06:28:52 AM
Quote from: spork on May 23, 2022, 11:02:10 AM
For most colleges and universities, "business" is the bucket that catches the unmotivated and underprepared applicants that schools need to enroll in order to keep the lights on. These are not people capable of majoring in mathematics, chemistry, or history. Hence the popularity of majors like "sports management" within business departments.

Agreed. And also the catch for students who started off in Engineering, flunked out, but whose parents insist they major in something "useful."

Although I'm tempted to share you two's prejudices regarding business majors

[. . .]

They're not prejudices. National studies of college student academic performance by field of study have shown that on average business majors are at the bottom. For the colleges and universities that are not Stanford, Northwestern, or Chicago, academic programs with a "business" label are cash cows, because they attract large numbers of underprepared, underprivileged, or simply lazy undergrads. These students aren't majoring in data science, economics, or even accounting, because those majors require *gulp* math. Their diplomas read "management," "business administration," or "marketing."

Here is a good descriptive account; it's more than a decade old but from what I can see the situation hasn't improved, and it might have gotten worse: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/education/edlife/edl-17business-t.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/education/edlife/edl-17business-t.html).

Mediocre, relatively small colleges and universities have relied on "business" programs to enroll undergrads for decades. They are far cheaper to establish than engineering programs, and their lack of value is easier to camouflage. Many of these schools also have useless MBA programs (https://freopp.org/is-graduate-school-worth-it-a-comprehensive-return-on-investment-analysis-a84644f29f9) whose only function has also been to generate tuition revenue. I think this era is slowly coming to an end.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on May 25, 2022, 05:31:14 AM
Business School students are worse than Education School students? Hard to imagine.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 25, 2022, 05:50:27 AM
Quote from: spork on May 25, 2022, 05:26:23 AM
. For the colleges and universities that are not Stanford, Northwestern, or Chicago, academic programs with a "business" label are cash cows, because they attract large numbers of underprepared, underprivileged, or simply lazy undergrads. These students aren't majoring in data science, economics, or even accounting, because those majors require *gulp* math. Their diplomas read "management," "business administration," or "marketing."



Mediocre, relatively small colleges and universities have relied on "business" programs to enroll undergrads for decades. They are far cheaper to establish than engineering programs, and their lack of value is easier to camouflage. Many of these schools also have useless MBA programs (https://freopp.org/is-graduate-school-worth-it-a-comprehensive-return-on-investment-analysis-a84644f29f9) whose only function has also been to generate tuition revenue. I think this era is slowly coming to an end.

Given the student population described above, engineering schools would miss the point entirely. The students they're attracting to "business" would be totally uninterested ("MATH!") and/or unable ("unprepared, lazy") to handle engineering.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 25, 2022, 06:39:19 AM
For a lot of services, including higher education, there are decent programs, half-decent programs, crummy programs and scams. Since the last group is relatively inexpensive to run, there tend to be a lot of them. Is it a problem for society if the last two groups run into dire financial straits as long as the first two are doing ok?

I think the failure of programs that don't deliver is how our economic system is supposed to work.

Analysts who only look at the overall aggregate will see a large number of struggling programs and conclude that the whole sector is in trouble. Others will look one step deeper and notice that there is a big difference between the ends of the spectrum and place the sector in a haves-and-have-nots paradigm. But there is a lot more nuance.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on May 25, 2022, 11:02:23 AM
The idea that higher ed is a meritocracy where the best institutions thrive and the worst fail seems idealistic to me.

Rather, the institutions that are good at self-promotion thrive and the ones that are badly run fail. There's only a rough correlation with actual merit. Success is related to the quality of the administration, merit is related to the quality of the faculty.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on May 25, 2022, 02:52:33 PM
The best places are selection machines. It's not obvious what their value-added is. I'm not saying it's zero, just not obvious in all fields, though it is obvious in, say, engineering.

On the long way down, we get to more and more signalling. Doesn't really matter what is learnt. Point is to have shown one can survive college.

As for business degrees, virtually everything one can say about them is true. That's one place where the quality spectrum is visible with a vengeance.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 26, 2022, 01:27:26 AM
Hannibal-Lagrange University: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/05/26/exigency-leads-layoffs-hannibal-lagrange-university (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/05/26/exigency-leads-layoffs-hannibal-lagrange-university).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 26, 2022, 04:16:36 AM
Quote from: spork on May 26, 2022, 01:27:26 AM
Hannibal-Lagrange University: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/05/26/exigency-leads-layoffs-hannibal-lagrange-university (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/05/26/exigency-leads-layoffs-hannibal-lagrange-university).

Thanks for getting us back on track. This article shows that warning signs of demise have been evident to faculty for at least a decade and that evacuation sirens have been blowing for at least a year.

The article has the essential word for this thread: "the nearly 100-year-old Baptist college in Missouri received a dire financial assessment."

This is in a tough demographic: a rural institution owned by the Southern Baptist Convention. The quotes from leadership make it sound as if they are awaiting divine guidance rather than using conventional business practices.

Or perhaps their managers were the kind of business majors described in recent posts, who can't read a financial statement or manage staff. "Stakeholders outside the administration had virtually no say on matters of enrollment, fiscal management or strategic planning.'

Faculty were not involved in management: "there was no shared governance"at Hannibal-LaGrange, which ... contributed to the university's financial troubles."

The usual target of program cuts gets the coup de grace: "layoffs included...a two-time Fulbright scholar who was the sole faculty member in the history department".

They are too small to be viable and are shrinking fast: "Hannibal-LaGrange has seen its enrollment drop by 35 percent, from around 1,200 students in 2012–13 to 780 in 2021–22."

Tenure is gone: "Because their 12-month contracts were exchanged for nonbinding two-week contracts in March, faculty said they did not expect to be paid past the end of this month."

The consultants offer analysis of dubious value: "when an institution appears to be headed for a cliff, the desire to stay open may conflict with the college's educational mission"
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 26, 2022, 06:16:01 AM
IHE: Enrollment Down 5th Straight Semester (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/05/26/nsc-report-shows-total-enrollment-down-41-percent#:~:text=A%205th%20Straight%20Semester%20of,the%20sector%20hit%20the%20hardest.).

Quote
The latest numbers mark the fifth semester in a row of declining overall enrollment. The report from spring 2020 counted 17.1 million students across all levels of higher education; that number is now 15.9 million.

Quote
Though much of the report may be concerning for higher education, first-time freshman enrollment is a bright spot in the latest data, up by 4.2 percent, or 13,700 students. That reverses a decline of 3.5 percent, or 11,800 students, from last spring. However, a special analysis in this year's report broke down the first-time freshman data by race, and it showed a 6.5 percent decline in Black freshman enrollment compared to last spring. Black students were the only demographic that declined among first-time freshmen.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on May 26, 2022, 06:22:10 AM
QuoteHannibal-Lagrange:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/05/26/exigency-leads-layoffs-hannibal-lagrange-university

Relevant to the above, and to a question posed in our digressive upthread meanderings on the meaning of it all (while we awaited another dire-straits specimen, perhaps, to digest and discuss)...

One model for theology, humanities, and the arts does already exist and has run in parallel with established universities ever since Abelard was at the Sorbonne....or Socrates held forth in the Agora.

I'm thinking of the small, salon-like gatherings of those who follow one or more teachers, or artists in their studios, or theologians in their diocesan workshop offerings, or public historians who lead their tours and present online conference papers, or YouTube/TicToc/TedTalk folks who teach anything from chord progressions to Elizabethan language pronunciation as independent scholars.

There are indeed charlatans in this mix, and little to no proof against plagiarism and content pirates,  but there are very good, very useful, very bright offerings as well, with lower overheads, fewer admincritters, and reduced office politics to wrangle with daily. Some people even offer good content AND make something from it.

I suspect those of us with a continually well-stoked fire in our bellies about teaching, research, and writing no matter the circumstances will find the channels by which to let our vocations move forward, no matter what.

It already happens to a great degree: I know of theological group offerings that would be taken as "rigorous enough" in some settings, and of struggling schools in that realm that have explored many alt-ac pathways towards ordination in their own dioceses, or at large--because of costs, Covid, and green-eyed developers breathing down their necks to buy up their land and build on it.

Can't speak to this particular school's situation per se, I don't know it well, sorry to say, but I'm guessing a look at the ATS website may yield more info (the Asso. of Theological Schools has their own strict accreditation board, a go-to for any seminary issues).

So, having indulged myself in what I so often decry on this thread as well--the generalized woe-is-us jeremiad vs. the focused, on-point analysis--I hope I've brought this post back to topic, with the note that, being as isolated as it appears to be, the finishing students will have a harder time availing themselves of the kind of sympathetic parallel offerings most theology schools try to arrange for when closing, for students on a timed (usually 3-year) ordination track.

In a more built-up area, they can be adopted in to related nearby programs. In more remote areas, just getting to another place and living there can be hard....churches don't pay a lot, in many cases.

Some students may also--as Dan Aylshire, emeritus ATS director, observed a few years back--now find a full theological education unnecessary, with churches willing to hire incompletely-formed pastors just to get someone in the pulpit and visiting the sick weekly.

Those churches are also often somewhat anti-intellectal in scope and so undermine their own denominational schools--which they may come to rue, as a lack of training in pastoral ethics can cost them money, credibility, and adherents when abuses come to light.

An interesting grant-funded project might be to see who among those so accused in various settings did not complete their academic training, and whether that included those who skipped out on CPE--clinical pastoral education--or supervised field work, as well as missiology or theological ethics and aesthetics requirements.

Of course, there are and have been highly-placed, multi-degreed folks to serve as foils to that correlation...I did mention Abelard earlier, for one...didn't I?

I wonder if Lily would take that one on.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on May 26, 2022, 06:49:20 AM
Quote from: mamselle on May 26, 2022, 06:22:10 AM
QuoteHannibal-Lagrange:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/05/26/exigency-leads-layoffs-hannibal-lagrange-university

Relevant to the above, and to a question posed in our digressive upthread meanderings on the meaning of it all (while we awaited another dire-straits specimen, perhaps, to digest and discuss)...

One model for theology, humanities, and the arts does already exist and has run in parallel with established universities ever since Abelard was at the Sorbonne....or Socrates held forth in the Agora.

I'm thinking of the small, salon-like gatherings of those who follow one or more teachers, or artists in their studios, or theologians in their diocesan workshop offerings, or public historians who lead their tours and present online conference papers, or YouTube/TicToc/TedTalk folks who teach anything from chord progressions to Elizabethan language pronunciation as independent scholars.


For people who are primarily concerned with learning, this is absolutely true. For people who want "An Education (TM)", it's not going to cut it, since it won't provide any verifiable credential.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on May 26, 2022, 07:35:35 AM
Missed the edit window:

P.S. Should we (did we already?) start a commentary/asides thread to ride around with this one?

It might help this thread stay more on-topic with specifics while allowing for broader thought linked to posts on this or other threads. - M.

And 5hen this showed up...

   https://www.boston.com/community/readers-say/how-readers-feel-about-the-rising-cost-of-college/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 26, 2022, 07:48:14 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 26, 2022, 04:16:36 AM
Quote from: spork on May 26, 2022, 01:27:26 AM
Hannibal-Lagrange University: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/05/26/exigency-leads-layoffs-hannibal-lagrange-university (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/05/26/exigency-leads-layoffs-hannibal-lagrange-university).

Thanks for getting us back on track. This article shows that warning signs of demise have been evident to faculty for at least a decade and that evacuation sirens have been blowing for at least a year.

The article has the essential word for this thread: "the nearly 100-year-old Baptist college in Missouri received a dire financial assessment."

This is in a tough demographic: a rural institution owned by the Southern Baptist Convention. The quotes from leadership make it sound as if they are awaiting divine guidance rather than using conventional business practices.

Or perhaps their managers were the kind of business majors described in recent posts, who can't read a financial statement or manage staff. "Stakeholders outside the administration had virtually no say on matters of enrollment, fiscal management or strategic planning.'

Faculty were not involved in management: "there was no shared governance"at Hannibal-LaGrange, which ... contributed to the university's financial troubles."

The usual target of program cuts gets the coup de grace: "layoffs included...a two-time Fulbright scholar who was the sole faculty member in the history department".

They are too small to be viable and are shrinking fast: "Hannibal-LaGrange has seen its enrollment drop by 35 percent, from around 1,200 students in 2012–13 to 780 in 2021–22."

Tenure is gone: "Because their 12-month contracts were exchanged for nonbinding two-week contracts in March, faculty said they did not expect to be paid past the end of this month."

The consultants offer analysis of dubious value: "when an institution appears to be headed for a cliff, the desire to stay open may conflict with the college's educational mission"

Just because they speak of prayer and seeking God's guidance doesn't mean they aren't trying to use real-world financial management.  As with many SLAC's, the world has turned very harsh for them in the past decade.  It's doubtful that their resources were ever abundant in the best of times--Baptist schools have always been expected to mostly support themselves, and they seldom have hugely rich alumni to call upon.  Now with the nation's general demographic decline, and perhaps regional demographic decline as well, they're seeing enrollment fall too low for a school to keep going in today's environment.  That brute reality is just too much for any kind of management to overcome.  This is why I worry so much about my alma mater, which is only a bit larger than Hannibal-Lagrange used to be.  So far Alma Mater seems to have held onto most of its enrollment.

I've noticed that administrations of declining schools tend to be very stubborn about continuing to fight to stay open as things get worse and worse.  I guess that's understandable.  A college's administration and faculty have a lot emotionally invested in the school and its mission.  They feel like it's worth fighting for, even when the odds seem long.  But in most cases the odds just can't be beat, and they end up fighting past the point at which a less emotionally-invested observer would advise giving up.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on May 28, 2022, 06:58:55 AM
This is also not a new discussion for scholastics--or Scholastics--in the field of theological education.

As one of them is said to have said (looking for the full citation now....)

"Philosophizing is absolutely better than increasing your wealth, but in times of necessity, the latter is to be preferred..."

T. Aquinas, c. 1300s
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on May 28, 2022, 07:31:34 AM
Quote from: apl68 on May 26, 2022, 07:48:14 AM
I've noticed that administrations of declining schools tend to be very stubborn about continuing to fight to stay open as things get worse and worse.  I guess that's understandable.  A college's administration and faculty have a lot emotionally invested in the school and its mission.  They feel like it's worth fighting for, even when the odds seem long.  But in most cases the odds just can't be beat, and they end up fighting past the point at which a less emotionally-invested observer would advise giving up.

The ones that can leave do leave. The ones that remain are those who have other reasons for not being able to relocate, or who could not find a job elsewhere. There tends to be a revolving door for positions of president, provost, registrar, etc. Each new one is a bit worse than the one previous.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on May 29, 2022, 07:34:51 AM
The smaller evangelical schools aren't helped by a decline in formal evangelicalism. What I mean by that was traditionally, if you were evangelical, you went to church and gave money to fund the church (tithes, mission funds, colleges). As others pointed out, it was never much, but it kept the lights on. Evangelical doesn't mean what it used to mean. Plenty of data to show self-identified evangelicals don't go to church and don't affiliate with any congregation. That means they also aren't giving money.

The mainline Protestant schools might have done better in the past and had alumni with money. With mainline numbers dropping in the past 20-30 years (dying out with replacements coming in), these schools don't have base of support.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sonoamused on June 10, 2022, 01:44:10 PM
Quote from: Hibush on May 26, 2022, 04:16:36 AM
Quote from: spork on May 26, 2022, 01:27:26 AM
Hannibal-Lagrange University: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/05/26/exigency-leads-layoffs-hannibal-lagrange-university (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/05/26/exigency-leads-layoffs-hannibal-lagrange-university).

Thanks for getting us back on track. This article shows that warning signs of demise have been evident to faculty for at least a decade and that evacuation sirens have been blowing for at least a year.

The article has the essential word for this thread: "the nearly 100-year-old Baptist college in Missouri received a dire financial assessment."

This is in a tough demographic: a rural institution owned by the Southern Baptist Convention. The quotes from leadership make it sound as if they are awaiting divine guidance rather than using conventional business practices.

Or perhaps their managers were the kind of business majors described in recent posts, who can't read a financial statement or manage staff. "Stakeholders outside the administration had virtually no say on matters of enrollment, fiscal management or strategic planning.'

Faculty were not involved in management: "there was no shared governance"at Hannibal-LaGrange, which ... contributed to the university's financial troubles."

The usual target of program cuts gets the coup de grace: "layoffs included...a two-time Fulbright scholar who was the sole faculty member in the history department".

They are too small to be viable and are shrinking fast: "Hannibal-LaGrange has seen its enrollment drop by 35 percent, from around 1,200 students in 2012–13 to 780 in 2021–22."

Tenure is gone: "Because their 12-month contracts were exchanged for nonbinding two-week contracts in March, faculty said they did not expect to be paid past the end of this month."

The consultants offer analysis of dubious value: "when an institution appears to be headed for a cliff, the desire to stay open may conflict with the college's educational mission"

That non-binding two week contracts had my head spin.    I don't think I have seen that one before.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 11, 2022, 04:57:24 PM
From IHE:

Piedmont Is in for Some Very Tough Times (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/06/10/piedmont-provost-resigns-over-unethical-budget-cuts)

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Dismal on June 13, 2022, 12:09:30 PM
Henderson State

https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-human-cost-of-campus-budget-cuts
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 13, 2022, 01:08:34 PM
Quote from: Dismal on June 13, 2022, 12:09:30 PM
Henderson State

https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-human-cost-of-campus-budget-cuts


I think that this sums up much of what is being lost at schools like HSU as they transform into whatever it is they're turning into:


QuoteFrom the small classrooms to the quality of the students, there is a lot that Beggs will miss about Henderson. It's a welcoming university for first-generation students and students from a range of backgrounds, he said, and he got to teach a variety of classes.

"Henderson State University is a remarkable little public university," Beggs said.

It was the type of university that, for a long time, Cate would have recommended to anyone hands down. But her faith in its direction started to wane in the last few years.

"It's not just because I lost my job," she said. "It's very businesslike and transactional now. There's not as much of that sense of community or fostering relationships with students like I experienced. It isn't for lack of faculty trying, but the focus changed to what the students mean monetarily."


I hope the two faculty members profiled here can find something to tide them over.  Little Rock isn't a terribly expensive city, so it's not like they need Silicon-Valley levels of income to make it.  The job market is strong overall right now, but two late-career academics, one of them visually-impaired, aren't so well positioned to take advantages of any opportunities that are out there.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on June 13, 2022, 01:27:38 PM
Quote from: apl68 on June 13, 2022, 01:08:34 PM

QuoteFrom the small classrooms to the quality of the students, there is a lot that Beggs will miss about Henderson. It's a welcoming university for first-generation students and students from a range of backgrounds, he said, and he got to teach a variety of classes.

"Henderson State University is a remarkable little public university," Beggs said.

It was the type of university that, for a long time, Cate would have recommended to anyone hands down. But her faith in its direction started to wane in the last few years.

"It's not just because I lost my job," she said. "It's very businesslike and transactional now. There's not as much of that sense of community or fostering relationships with students like I experienced. It isn't for lack of faculty trying, but the focus changed to what the students mean monetarily."

...

Transactional? Had to look it up. Found this: To keep things simple, a transactional personality is someone who never acts (positively or negatively) if there's nothing to gain.

Does anyone know anyone, perhaps Mother Theresa aside, who is not transactional?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 13, 2022, 01:56:01 PM
Quote from: apl68 on June 13, 2022, 01:08:34 PM
Quote from: Dismal on June 13, 2022, 12:09:30 PM
Henderson State

https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-human-cost-of-campus-budget-cuts


I think that this sums up much of what is being lost at schools like HSU as they transform into whatever it is they're turning into:


QuoteFrom the small classrooms to the quality of the students, there is a lot that Beggs will miss about Henderson. It's a welcoming university for first-generation students and students from a range of backgrounds, he said, and he got to teach a variety of classes.

"Henderson State University is a remarkable little public university," Beggs said.

It was the type of university that, for a long time, Cate would have recommended to anyone hands down. But her faith in its direction started to wane in the last few years.

"It's not just because I lost my job," she said. "It's very businesslike and transactional now. There's not as much of that sense of community or fostering relationships with students like I experienced. It isn't for lack of faculty trying, but the focus changed to what the students mean monetarily."


I hope the two faculty members profiled here can find something to tide them over.  Little Rock isn't a terribly expensive city, so it's not like they need Silicon-Valley levels of income to make it.  The job market is strong overall right now, but two late-career academics, one of them visually-impaired, aren't so well positioned to take advantages of any opportunities that are out there.

I feel so sorry for these folks, and having just been laid off, I understand their frustrations and sense of betrayal.

But didn't they see this coming?  The uni has $78M "long-term" debt (whatever that is).  Enrollment has been dropping.  They have a new chancellor and a committee to suggest cuts.

I certainly saw my own demise as an academic on the horizon, and while we are safe for the moment, we are very aware that my wife's tenure may be precarious in a couple of years if our enrollment trend continues.  We also have an administration that does not seem to know what to do and has had no luck reversing our downward spiral despite their cuts.

It is possible that the journalism decided on an "angle" on the story, but one does wonder they these very good people feel "betrayed" by what should have been obvious.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on June 13, 2022, 03:27:36 PM
But it's a bit consistent with things that have happened elsewhere.

Everyone is friendly, everything's very give-and-take, easy-on-the-eyes-- until it's not.

And then, things truly do become transactional, in the sense that everything is weighed and measured for its worth overall, and the things tossed overboard to lighten the load are much-valued treasures whose worth can't be sustained over the drag they exert on the boat.

And even the prophets crying in the wilderness, early on, who were not listened to...until that too-late point happens, and everyone says, "hunh?"...

Even those prophets get pitched out with the ballast--or the board ties sacking over their eyes and pushes.

Seen it. Not pretty. Not fun.

Mean, even.

M.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on June 14, 2022, 09:57:08 AM
Most people see it coming, but you get so much response from admin and board that it isn't so bad, that you start to believe or at least hope they are right. Claims of betrayal are then  true because they did their best to tell you times were good when they weren't (and you knew it), then admin comes out and says they are firing untenured faculty, etc... and so you really do feel betrayed. So, said claims can be genuine even if  (especially if?) you saw it coming.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Engineer13 on June 15, 2022, 11:40:13 AM
What surprised me was that besides English, the other programs to be eliminated were chemistry, biology, and mathematics.  I thought STEM programs were easier to market to prospective students and their parents.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on June 15, 2022, 12:10:50 PM
Chemistry and biology usually have lab expenses involved, and Math is seen as too esoteric for words...and all three are "too hard" for anyone who believes that thinking for a living is asking too much.

Including some administrators, I'd guess.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on June 15, 2022, 12:32:15 PM
STEM can be quite valuable to a school *if* you have enough interested students who can really do it (never mind general ed requirements). Though some students have a hard time getting it together for anything, some *think* its STEM for them until they fail their first course in Physics or Chem or Calc. Then they take a bunch of other stuff and figure out that their true calling is in politics or business or perhaps even Spanish or Music. Of course you have to have all of those programs for students to be able to figure out that they like it or are good at it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 15, 2022, 12:37:02 PM
I've heard that HSU's math degree program had nearly no majors left in recent years, so it was probably gone no matter what.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on June 15, 2022, 01:53:13 PM
Quote from: apl68 on June 15, 2022, 12:37:02 PM
I've heard that HSU's math degree program had nearly no majors left in recent years, so it was probably gone no matter what.

Furthermore, programs at universities like HSU have been lowering math requirements in their programs, to avoid losing students in their specific degree programs (e.g. business schools eliminating Calculus requirement for their Finance majors).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 15, 2022, 02:00:59 PM
Interestingly, I thought that attrition rate for STEM majors would be considerably hirer than for other majors, largely because of the reputation STEM has for being "hard." 

But that appears not to be the case.

IHE: Study Tracks Attrition Rates STEM Majors (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/11/27/study-tracks-attrition-rates-stem-majors#:~:text=The%20report%20concluded%20that%20the,was%20similar%20to%20other%20fields.)

Quote
Low-performing students (those with an overall grade point average below 2.5) were more likely to exit the STEM field by dropping out of college than were high-performing students (those with an overall GPA of 3.5 or higher). The high-performing students were more likely to switch to a non-STEM major than their low-performing peers.

The study found some differences in how men and women exited the STEM fields. More men than women left STEM disciplines by dropping out of college and more women than men left STEM by switching majors. According to the study, 32 percent of women who left STEM fields switched to a different major, compared with 26 percent of men. And 24 percent of men left the STEM field by dropping out of college, compared with 14 percent of women.

Taking lighter credits loads in STEM courses in the first year, taking less challenging math courses in the first year and performing poorly in STEM classes relative to non-STEM classes were associated with an increased probability of switching majors for STEM entrants, according to the study.

The report concluded that the attrition rate for STEM degree candidates (about 48 percent for those pursuing bachelor's degrees) was similar to other fields. The attrition rate for bachelor's degree candidates in the humanities, education and health sciences was between 52 and 62 percent; for business and social/behavioral sciences degree candidates, the attrition rate was between 45 and 50 percent.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on June 15, 2022, 04:47:16 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 15, 2022, 02:00:59 PM
Interestingly, I thought that attrition rate for STEM majors would be considerably hirer than for other majors, largely because of the reputation STEM has for being "hard." 

But that appears not to be the case.



I'd guess the reason the attrition rate isn't higher is because there's more self-selection going on before they enter. (In other words, the "reputation for being hard" is a feature, not a bug.) Anyone who hates math in high school, regardless of how they perform in other subjects, is not going to be interested in most STEM disciplines. (Biology and computer science would probably be the least math-intensive by avoiding certain sub-disciplines.)

Even STEM "recruiting" of high school students is often related to contests, science fairs, etc. so it's aimed at students who demonstrate an interest and aptitude for it. Some other disciplines may rely more on just trying to draw from the general student population who qualify for admission, regardless of any specific interest in the discipline. If the students are less committed to begin with, the attrition rate could understandably be higher.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on June 15, 2022, 05:10:15 PM
There's a sweatshirt: Limit, as GPA goes to zero, Engineering major goes to Business major. :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 16, 2022, 02:21:32 AM
Vermont College of Fine Arts:

https://vtdigger.org/2022/06/15/vermont-college-of-fine-arts-plans-to-end-on-campus-programs-may-sell-buildings/ (https://vtdigger.org/2022/06/15/vermont-college-of-fine-arts-plans-to-end-on-campus-programs-may-sell-buildings/).

The college has run deficits since 2015 and its liabilities nearly equal its assets. It's dead.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 16, 2022, 07:30:04 AM
Quote from: spork on June 16, 2022, 02:21:32 AM
Vermont College of Fine Arts:

https://vtdigger.org/2022/06/15/vermont-college-of-fine-arts-plans-to-end-on-campus-programs-may-sell-buildings/ (https://vtdigger.org/2022/06/15/vermont-college-of-fine-arts-plans-to-end-on-campus-programs-may-sell-buildings/).

The college has run deficits since 2015 and its liabilities nearly equal its assets. It's dead.

Looks like the institution has been reinvented multiple times over the years to keep going.  It must have taken a lot of hard work and ingenuity to get the place this far.  Spork is likely right that it about to reach the end of the line as an institution of higher education.  Hope somebody can at least find a good new use for the campus.  It would be a shame to have it go to waste.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 16, 2022, 08:20:17 AM
Quote from: apl68 on June 16, 2022, 07:30:04 AM
Quote from: spork on June 16, 2022, 02:21:32 AM
Vermont College of Fine Arts:

https://vtdigger.org/2022/06/15/vermont-college-of-fine-arts-plans-to-end-on-campus-programs-may-sell-buildings/ (https://vtdigger.org/2022/06/15/vermont-college-of-fine-arts-plans-to-end-on-campus-programs-may-sell-buildings/).

The college has run deficits since 2015 and its liabilities nearly equal its assets. It's dead.

Looks like the institution has been reinvented multiple times over the years to keep going.  It must have taken a lot of hard work and ingenuity to get the place this far.  Spork is likely right that it about to reach the end of the line as an institution of higher education.  Hope somebody can at least find a good new use for the campus.  It would be a shame to have it go to waste.

A 350-student fine-arts school seems like a tall order to begin with. But how attractive is their "low-residency master's degree in six artistic disciplines". Wouldn't residency be the big attraction for students in creative arts? Or do they cater to people with time and money who can practice during the year then spend a couple fun summer weeks in Montpelier (or now Colorado)?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 16, 2022, 10:24:49 AM
Artists are generally motivated by the desire to do art. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on June 16, 2022, 02:43:43 PM
The camps will become cute condos. Nobody else has use for a campus.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on June 16, 2022, 03:11:51 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 16, 2022, 10:24:49 AM
Artists are generally motivated by the desire to do art.

Like Mother Theresa being motivated to do good. All subject to a budget constraint.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 08, 2022, 12:58:26 PM
It's now official.  Henderson State University is being repurposed as something other than a state SLAC:


Quote"We are committed to opening the door of access to college, mobilizing a learning community that builds seamless pathways from school to work, and preparing students to be career ready in high-demand fields that drive community and economic development," Ambrose said. "Henderson has made necessary spending cuts to restore our fiscal integrity, improve our cash position and build a sustainable resource allocation model. But just as important is the reallocation of financial resources to build personalized student pathways and support to ensure retention and degree completion for all students."

Ambrose said Henderson is creating an Interstate 30 learning community from Saline County to Arkadelphia that includes partnerships with K-12 school districts, ASU Three Rivers in Malvern and Saline County Career Technical Campus in Benton.

"Our collective efforts in policy and practice will fundamentally redefine the college student," he said. "We will value not only traditional incoming freshmen and graduate students, but also high school students who are getting a head start with college courses, adults who have some college but no degree, and ongoing educational opportunities for all adult learners. We also want to connect with high school students who may not believe college is possible, and adults who never had the opportunity and want to reconsider college education to enhance or change careers.


http://www.magnoliareporter.com/education/colleges_universities/article_a2d87104-fea9-11ec-ad00-cfd651674749.html



And here's a link to "Reimagining Henderson:  Academic Performance and Program Viability."  Worth a look, to see what may be coming for other small publicly-supported schools.


https://www.hsu.edu/uploads/pages/academic_performance_and_program_viability.docx.pdf


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sonoamused on July 14, 2022, 07:25:44 AM
This sounds like they are expanding a lot of community college and extension programs into the typical 4yr college; its probably not the worst idea if the area was not underserved in that sense.

Quote from: apl68 on July 08, 2022, 12:58:26 PM
It's now official.  Henderson State University is being repurposed as something other than a state SLAC:


Quote"We are committed to opening the door of access to college, mobilizing a learning community that builds seamless pathways from school to work, and preparing students to be career ready in high-demand fields that drive community and economic development," Ambrose said. "Henderson has made necessary spending cuts to restore our fiscal integrity, improve our cash position and build a sustainable resource allocation model. But just as important is the reallocation of financial resources to build personalized student pathways and support to ensure retention and degree completion for all students."

Ambrose said Henderson is creating an Interstate 30 learning community from Saline County to Arkadelphia that includes partnerships with K-12 school districts, ASU Three Rivers in Malvern and Saline County Career Technical Campus in Benton.

"Our collective efforts in policy and practice will fundamentally redefine the college student," he said. "We will value not only traditional incoming freshmen and graduate students, but also high school students who are getting a head start with college courses, adults who have some college but no degree, and ongoing educational opportunities for all adult learners. We also want to connect with high school students who may not believe college is possible, and adults who never had the opportunity and want to reconsider college education to enhance or change careers.


http://www.magnoliareporter.com/education/colleges_universities/article_a2d87104-fea9-11ec-ad00-cfd651674749.html



And here's a link to "Reimagining Henderson:  Academic Performance and Program Viability."  Worth a look, to see what may be coming for other small publicly-supported schools.


https://www.hsu.edu/uploads/pages/academic_performance_and_program_viability.docx.pdf
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on July 14, 2022, 08:44:20 AM
Quote from: dismalist on June 16, 2022, 03:11:51 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 16, 2022, 10:24:49 AM
Artists are generally motivated by the desire to do art.

Like Mother Theresa being motivated to do good. All subject to a budget constraint.

Can't recall if I've recommended this before or not, but if I did, you apparently haven't read it yet, Dismal!

    https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674659681

;--}

M. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on July 14, 2022, 08:54:00 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 14, 2022, 08:44:20 AM
Quote from: dismalist on June 16, 2022, 03:11:51 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 16, 2022, 10:24:49 AM
Artists are generally motivated by the desire to do art.

Like Mother Theresa being motivated to do good. All subject to a budget constraint.

Can't recall if I've recommended this before or not, but if I did, you apparently haven't read it yet, Dismal!

    https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674659681

;--}

M.

It's too expensive! :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on July 14, 2022, 09:20:45 AM
OK, here's an interview with the basics:

At:

   https://ldausa.org/about/sunday-magazine/#fall2019

See:
   Fall, 2017, p. 12

and
   Spring, 2017, p. 16

Free!

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on July 14, 2022, 09:48:02 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 14, 2022, 09:20:45 AM
OK, here's an interview with the basics:

At:

   https://ldausa.org/about/sunday-magazine/#fall2019

See:
   Fall, 2017, p. 12

and
   Spring, 2017, p. 16

Free!

M.

One would have to pay me to listen! There's no such thing as a free lunch. :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on July 14, 2022, 11:19:48 AM
Even worse than listening--you have to READ it....

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 14, 2022, 11:54:06 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 14, 2022, 08:44:20 AM
Quote from: dismalist on June 16, 2022, 03:11:51 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 16, 2022, 10:24:49 AM
Artists are generally motivated by the desire to do art.

Like Mother Theresa being motivated to do good. All subject to a budget constraint.

Can't recall if I've recommended this before or not, but if I did, you apparently haven't read it yet, Dismal!

    https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674659681

;--}

M.

Shucks, you can save the cost of that item by just remembering Matthew 6:24: 

"No man can serve two masters.  Either he will love the one and hate the other, or hold to the one and despise the other.  You cannot be a slave both to God and to wealth."  Lots of other good stuff in the next few verses after that, too.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on July 14, 2022, 12:34:10 PM
Got it in one.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on July 14, 2022, 12:52:27 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 14, 2022, 11:54:06 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 14, 2022, 08:44:20 AM
Quote from: dismalist on June 16, 2022, 03:11:51 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 16, 2022, 10:24:49 AM
Artists are generally motivated by the desire to do art.

Like Mother Theresa being motivated to do good. All subject to a budget constraint.

Can't recall if I've recommended this before or not, but if I did, you apparently haven't read it yet, Dismal!

    https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674659681

;--}

M.

Shucks, you can save the cost of that item by just remembering Matthew 6:24: 

"No man can serve two masters.  Either he will love the one and hate the other, or hold to the one and despise the other.  You cannot be a slave both to God and to wealth."  Lots of other good stuff in the next few verses after that, too.

Mother Theresa's are few. We can't depend on such people. If we did, we'd all starve. Exchange lets us survive and thrive, not charity.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on July 14, 2022, 01:03:56 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 14, 2022, 12:52:27 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 14, 2022, 11:54:06 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 14, 2022, 08:44:20 AM
Quote from: dismalist on June 16, 2022, 03:11:51 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 16, 2022, 10:24:49 AM
Artists are generally motivated by the desire to do art.

Like Mother Theresa being motivated to do good. All subject to a budget constraint.

Can't recall if I've recommended this before or not, but if I did, you apparently haven't read it yet, Dismal!

    https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674659681

;--}

M.

Shucks, you can save the cost of that item by just remembering Matthew 6:24: 

"No man can serve two masters.  Either he will love the one and hate the other, or hold to the one and despise the other.  You cannot be a slave both to God and to wealth."  Lots of other good stuff in the next few verses after that, too.

Mother Theresa's are few. We can't depend on such people. If we did, we'd all starve. Exchange lets some of us survive and thrive, not charity.

Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on July 14, 2022, 01:21:58 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 14, 2022, 01:03:56 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 14, 2022, 12:52:27 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 14, 2022, 11:54:06 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 14, 2022, 08:44:20 AM
Quote from: dismalist on June 16, 2022, 03:11:51 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 16, 2022, 10:24:49 AM
Artists are generally motivated by the desire to do art.

Like Mother Theresa being motivated to do good. All subject to a budget constraint.

Can't recall if I've recommended this before or not, but if I did, you apparently haven't read it yet, Dismal!

    https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674659681

;--}

M.

Shucks, you can save the cost of that item by just remembering Matthew 6:24: 

"No man can serve two masters.  Either he will love the one and hate the other, or hold to the one and despise the other.  You cannot be a slave both to God and to wealth."  Lots of other good stuff in the next few verses after that, too.

Mother Theresa's are few. We can't depend on such people. If we did, we'd all starve. Exchange lets some of us survive and thrive, not charity.

Fixed that for you.

Sounds like envy.

Look at share of world population living in extreme poverty 1820 - 2018, falls from near 80% to around 10%. Speaking with Lyndon Johnson, we've never had it so good!

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-living-in-extreme-poverty-basic-needs-estimate?country=~OWID_WRL (https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-living-in-extreme-poverty-basic-needs-estimate?country=~OWID_WRL)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on July 14, 2022, 07:23:51 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 14, 2022, 01:21:58 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 14, 2022, 01:03:56 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 14, 2022, 12:52:27 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 14, 2022, 11:54:06 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 14, 2022, 08:44:20 AM
Quote from: dismalist on June 16, 2022, 03:11:51 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 16, 2022, 10:24:49 AM
Artists are generally motivated by the desire to do art.

Like Mother Theresa being motivated to do good. All subject to a budget constraint.

Can't recall if I've recommended this before or not, but if I did, you apparently haven't read it yet, Dismal!

    https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674659681

;--}

M.

Shucks, you can save the cost of that item by just remembering Matthew 6:24: 

"No man can serve two masters.  Either he will love the one and hate the other, or hold to the one and despise the other.  You cannot be a slave both to God and to wealth."  Lots of other good stuff in the next few verses after that, too.

Mother Theresa's are few. We can't depend on such people. If we did, we'd all starve. Exchange lets some of us survive and thrive, not charity.

Fixed that for you.

Sounds like envy.

Look at share of world population living in extreme poverty 1820 - 2018, falls from near 80% to around 10%. Speaking with Lyndon Johnson, we've never had it so good!

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-living-in-extreme-poverty-basic-needs-estimate?country=~OWID_WRL (https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-living-in-extreme-poverty-basic-needs-estimate?country=~OWID_WRL)

I'm well aware of that data.  I teach it in class.  And if you pull China out of the dataset, the numbers aren't quite so rosy.

But even if we ignore that bottom 10% and focus on the 3-4 billion people in upper and lower middle income countries, I suspect most people have no context for that.  I have a fair bit of experience working in those settings. 

Yes, they have the basic necessities of life mostly met.  But they may still live on a dirt floor and have a sheet metal roof.  They have enough to eat - if you believe a diet consisting mostly of rice, beans and tortillas is a decent diet.  They probably have a decent water source - although that probably means a single cold water tap for the entire family.  They do have health care.  If by healthcare you mean a community health worker with a 6th grade education who will have to put you on the bus for a 2 hour bus ride to the nearest clinic if you need anything more than a Tylenol.  They have jobs.  But the job may be selling the vegetables they grow since they are worth more at the market than they are for the family to eat - which brings us back to the tortillas, beans and rice.  They probably have electricity - or at least they can see the power lines that run past, but not into the village.  They don't have to cook over an open fire, so they're not choking to death on the smoke.  But all they have is a single gas ring on which to cook for a family of 6.  They can educate their kids - but the teaching skills and knowledge of the teachers may be pretty poor.  They have free healthcare in government hospitals - where the physicians never show up because they can make more money running a private practice.

If you believe that your sacred marketplace has allowed people in that setting to "thrive" I'd challenge you to go live there for a month and report back to us on how well you are "thriving" in the marketplace. 

You're not wrong in that exchange in the marketplace has done miracles.  For some people.  But access to that marketplace is not always possible (e.g. Honduran sugar growers cannot complete agains US growers and their $4 billion in federal subsidies.)  The world IS a better/richer place than 50 years ago.  But that does not mean that the people who were pulled out of abject poverty are doing particularly well.  They may not be starving to death anymore, but life is still brutally hard for most of them.

Sometimes I just wish those who worship at the market would acknowledge that markets fail about as often as they succeed.  Markets pick winners and losers - and I have yet to hear anybody but the winners tell me how "fabulous" they are.

I'm not envious - hell I have enough assets that I'm down $160,000 in the markets this year and I'm still worth 7 figures.  What I want is for economists to stop playing with their regression models, get on a goddam plane and actually see what the world looks like.  Or at least read some Amartya Sen.

[/rant]  You may return to how badly our colleges have it.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on July 14, 2022, 07:35:00 PM
QuoteYou're not wrong in that exchange in the marketplace has done miracles.  For some people.  But access to that marketplace is not always possible (e.g. Honduran sugar growers cannot complete against US growers and their $4 billion in federal subsidies.)  The world IS a better/richer place than 50 years ago.  But that does not mean that the people who were pulled out of abject poverty are doing particularly well.  They may not be starving to death anymore, but life is still brutally hard for most of them.

Yup, that's politics man. not exchange.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on July 14, 2022, 07:36:19 PM
QuoteI'm well aware of that data.  I teach it in class.  And if you pull China out of the dataset, the numbers aren't quite so rosy.

But even if we ignore that bottom 10% and focus on the 3-4 billion people in upper and lower middle income countries, I suspect most people have no context for that.  I have a fair bit of experience working in those settings.

Yes, they have the basic necessities of life mostly met.  But they may still live on a dirt floor and have a sheet metal roof.  They have enough to eat - if you believe a diet consisting mostly of rice, beans and tortillas is a decent diet.  They probably have a decent water source - although that probably means a single cold water tap for the entire family.  They do have health care.  If by healthcare you mean a community health worker with a 6th grade education who will have to put you on the bus for a 2 hour bus ride to the nearest clinic if you need anything more than a Tylenol.  They have jobs.  But the job may be selling the vegetables they grow since they are worth more at the market than they are for the family to eat - which brings us back to the tortillas, beans and rice.  They probably have electricity - or at least they can see the power lines that run past, but not into the village.  They don't have to cook over an open fire, so they're not choking to death on the smoke.  But all they have is a single gas ring on which to cook for a family of 6.  They can educate their kids - but the teaching skills and knowledge of the teachers may be pretty poor.  They have free healthcare in government hospitals - where the physicians never show up because they can make more money running a private practice.

If you believe that your sacred marketplace has allowed people in that setting to "thrive" I'd challenge you to go live there for a month and report back to us on how well you are "thriving" in the marketplace.

You're not wrong in that exchange in the marketplace has done miracles.  For some people.  But access to that marketplace is not always possible (e.g. Honduran sugar growers cannot complete agains US growers and their $4 billion in federal subsidies.)  The world IS a better/richer place than 50 years ago.  But that does not mean that the people who were pulled out of abject poverty are doing particularly well.  They may not be starving to death anymore, but life is still brutally hard for most of them.

Sometimes I just wish those who worship at the market would acknowledge that markets fail about as often as they succeed.  Markets pick winners and losers - and I have yet to hear anybody but the winners tell me how "fabulous" they are.

I'm not envious - hell I have enough assets that I'm down $160,000 in the markets this year and I'm still worth 7 figures.  What I want is for economists to stop playing with their regression models, get on a goddam plane and actually see what the world looks like.  Or at least read some Amartya Sen.

[/rant]  You may return to how badly our colleges have it.

Which was Harvey's point.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on July 14, 2022, 07:38:56 PM
Quote from: mamselle on July 14, 2022, 07:36:19 PM
Which was Harvey's point.

M.

Exchange bad. Politics bad. Everything bad.

Revolution now!

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on July 14, 2022, 08:06:47 PM
If you actually took the time to read the more nuanced article, you would see there are alternatives.

Knee-jerk reactions, bad.

Revolution not needed.

Just revelation.

M.

ETA: And , yes, we really should get back to the thread at hand. If there's interest, a new thread might be a better option.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 15, 2022, 05:54:35 AM
The Pennsylvania schools in the PASSHE system have been hammered by the demographics of local students and dropping woefully inadequate funding from the state. This year's budget offers an increase of 16% and a one-time shot of 26% of last year's state allocation. A respite from the dire financial straits for a bit, for some schools?

https://www.passhe.edu/News/Pages/Releases.aspx?q=2022-7-8-PASSHE-statement-on-state-budget

QuoteThe 2022-23 state budget invests $552.5 million in PASSHE, a $75 million increase from $477.5 million in the 2021-22 fiscal year. This is the largest single-year increase PASSHE has received from the state and will benefit students by allowing the State System to hold tuition flat for the fourth consecutive year, despite inflation.

Additionally, the budget provides $125 million in one-time American Rescue Plan Act funding to support System Redesign. In total, the budget invests $677.5 million in the state-owned university system and its students.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 15, 2022, 04:23:53 PM
Quote from: Hibush on July 15, 2022, 05:54:35 AM
A respite from the dire financial straits for a bit, for some schools?

QuoteThe 2022-23 state budget invests $552.5 million in PASSHE, a $75 million increase from $477.5 million in the 2021-22 fiscal year. This is the largest single-year increase PASSHE has received from the state and will benefit students by allowing the State System to hold tuition flat for the fourth consecutive year, despite inflation.

Additionally, the budget provides $125 million in one-time American Rescue Plan Act funding to support System Redesign. In total, the budget invests $677.5 million in the state-owned university system and its students.

I've always said America has enough wealth to save our colleges if we had the will.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on July 15, 2022, 05:11:16 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 15, 2022, 04:23:53 PM
A respite from the dire financial straits for a bit, for some schools?

Quote from: Hibush on July 15, 2022, 05:54:35 AM

QuoteThe 2022-23 state budget invests $552.5 million in PASSHE, a $75 million increase from $477.5 million in the 2021-22 fiscal year. This is the largest single-year increase PASSHE has received from the state and will benefit students by allowing the State System to hold tuition flat for the fourth consecutive year, despite inflation.

Additionally, the budget provides $125 million in one-time American Rescue Plan Act funding to support System Redesign. In total, the budget invests $677.5 million in the state-owned university system and its students.

I've always said America has enough wealth to save our colleges if we had the will.

While these are good for the moment, they're not sustainable indefinitely. I'd really like to hear the long term objective and analysis of how it can be financed in perpetuity.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 15, 2022, 06:14:53 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 15, 2022, 05:11:16 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 15, 2022, 04:23:53 PM
A respite from the dire financial straits for a bit, for some schools?

Quote from: Hibush on July 15, 2022, 05:54:35 AM

QuoteThe 2022-23 state budget invests $552.5 million in PASSHE, a $75 million increase from $477.5 million in the 2021-22 fiscal year. This is the largest single-year increase PASSHE has received from the state and will benefit students by allowing the State System to hold tuition flat for the fourth consecutive year, despite inflation.

Additionally, the budget provides $125 million in one-time American Rescue Plan Act funding to support System Redesign. In total, the budget invests $677.5 million in the state-owned university system and its students.

I've always said America has enough wealth to save our colleges if we had the will.

While these are good for the moment, they're not sustainable indefinitely. I'd really like to hear the long term objective and analysis of how it can be financed in perpetuity.

Definitely not sustainable for even a few years. Is it a hiccup in the freefall or a turnaround towards some sustainable smaller existence?   

Re Wahoo's thought. The PA legislature has had the will to kill the colleges, not to save them. It is not a matter of them failing to prioritize educational spending despite knowing its value. It is them thinking education is bad and is something that should be minimized. The argurment for investing is different. One could also try working to change out some of the legislators; that may be the easier path even though it is often considered an impossible one.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on July 15, 2022, 06:42:40 PM
QuoteThe PA legislature has had the will to kill the colleges, not to save them.

QuoteThe 2022-23 state budget invests $552.5 million in PASSHE, a $75 million increase from $477.5 million in the 2021-22 fiscal year. This is the largest single-year increase PASSHE has received from the state and will benefit students by allowing the State System to hold tuition flat for the fourth consecutive year, despite inflation.

Additionally, the budget provides $125 million in one-time American Rescue Plan Act funding to support System Redesign. In total, the budget invests $677.5 million in the state-owned university system and its students.

That's a beautiful death!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 18, 2022, 08:56:40 AM
IHE:  Two stories in "Quick Takes" on layoffs:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2022/07/18/layoffs-maryland-institute-college-art

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2022/07/18/second-round-layoffs-erie-cc

One on an art institute closure:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/07/18/failed-attempt-merger-kills-san-francisco-art-institute

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 18, 2022, 10:32:10 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 18, 2022, 08:56:40 AM
IHE:  Two stories in "Quick Takes" on layoffs:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2022/07/18/layoffs-maryland-institute-college-art

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2022/07/18/second-round-layoffs-erie-cc

One on an art institute closure:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/07/18/failed-attempt-merger-kills-san-francisco-art-institute

These are hard times for art institutes.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: AmLitHist on July 18, 2022, 12:15:19 PM
Also from IHE:  Erie CC (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2022/07/18/second-round-layoffs-erie-cc?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=d0268e4b4f-DNU_2021_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-d0268e4b4f-233950369&mc_cid=d0268e4b4f&mc_eid=718d8eb68e) does a second round of layoffs.

At a CC myself, I continue to worry. So far we're OK--down some % today, but our campus is notorious for last-minute enrollments. It always a concern, though. We're building shiny new buildings, whether anyone is here to use them or not....





Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 18, 2022, 02:17:53 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 18, 2022, 10:32:10 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 18, 2022, 08:56:40 AM
IHE:  Two stories in "Quick Takes" on layoffs:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2022/07/18/layoffs-maryland-institute-college-art

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2022/07/18/second-round-layoffs-erie-cc

One on an art institute closure:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/07/18/failed-attempt-merger-kills-san-francisco-art-institute

These are hard times for art institutes.

I also had a dream of working as an academic at an art institute somewhere.  Seeing these just kills me.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 19, 2022, 07:38:19 AM
Henderson State University professor of biology James Engman talks about how he has just taken his final group of students on a study abroad trip to Belize.  His department is one of the many being axed. 


https://www.hotsr.com/news/2022/jul/17/watch-hsu-professor-takes-biologystudents-on/


Just one example of the horizon-broadening opportunities that students in the region will no longer have in the future.  Have to say, though, the article is written in such a way that it makes the trip sound more like a kind of subsidized vacation than a study abroad opportunity, which is not the image you want to convey when trying to make the case for continuing things like this elsewhere.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on July 19, 2022, 08:05:59 AM
The trip sounds similar to many that we run to the Galapagos etc. This kind of trip is the culminating event after a semester long course in the topic on campus. The faculty teach the course and lead the trip. My guess is that students had assignments associated with each stop on the trip that they needed to complete. ID the fish, interview the fisherman etc. It works well as an end of semester synthesis of topics already discussed. And I wouldn't read too much into the fact that they stayed at "resorts" - often these are just where you get the best deals to accommodate large groups.

These types of course and trip combos are much more possible for our students who are lower SES and cannot take he time off from jobs for a full study abroad semester. Two weeks they can swing, but not much longer than that.

I am a bit surprised at the lack of diversity among the students in the photo though. I wonder if not knowing how to swim is a hidden barrier?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 19, 2022, 10:12:46 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on July 19, 2022, 08:05:59 AM
The trip sounds similar to many that we run to the Galapagos etc. This kind of trip is the culminating event after a semester long course in the topic on campus. The faculty teach the course and lead the trip. My guess is that students had assignments associated with each stop on the trip that they needed to complete. ID the fish, interview the fisherman etc. It works well as an end of semester synthesis of topics already discussed. And I wouldn't read too much into the fact that they stayed at "resorts" - often these are just where you get the best deals to accommodate large groups.

I know this, and you know it, but nuances like this may not come across to ordinary taxpayers and so forth who read about student study abroad trips.  I wish the article had done a better job of getting what all the trip involves across.  The prof no doubt spelled it all out in his interview, but this is what made it into the article.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Harlow2 on July 19, 2022, 03:35:05 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 18, 2022, 02:17:53 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 18, 2022, 10:32:10 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 18, 2022, 08:56:40 AM
IHE:  Two stories in "Quick Takes" on layoffs:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2022/07/18/layoffs-maryland-institute-college-art

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2022/07/18/second-round-layoffs-erie-cc

One on an art institute closure:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/07/18/failed-attempt-merger-kills-san-francisco-art-institute

These are hard times for art institutes.

I also had a dream of working as an academic at an art institute somewhere.  Seeing these just kills me.

As did I.  I was accepted to a grad program at MICA and was very impressed (ended up elsewhere a bit closer to my then-home).  Several of my professors attended San Francisco. This is distressing news.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 21, 2022, 08:46:15 AM
This one is just a cluster #$@!

IHE: Education Department Shuts a 'Free' Program for Union Members (http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/07/21/us-shuts-community-colleges-free-program-union-members)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 21, 2022, 09:07:38 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 21, 2022, 08:46:15 AM
This one is just a cluster #$@!

IHE: Education Department Shuts a 'Free' Program for Union Members (http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/07/21/us-shuts-community-colleges-free-program-union-members)

Good idea to offer it, bad idea to misappropriate funds to pay for it. Sometimes I wonder about the financial controls at some places. I have many layers of administrative staff who would each stop an initiative like this.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Morden on July 22, 2022, 03:08:26 PM
Laurentian University, a public institution in Ontario, is reaching the end of its court process. And its president announced he is retiring.
https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/more-than-38m-in-lu-scholarship-bursary-donations-is-gone-court-filing-shows-1.5998652 (https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/more-than-38m-in-lu-scholarship-bursary-donations-is-gone-court-filing-shows-1.5998652)
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/laurentian-president-steps-down-1.6528309 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/laurentian-president-steps-down-1.6528309)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 12, 2022, 06:04:37 AM
IHE:  NJ City U "collapses" (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/08/12/new-jersey-university-faces-scrutiny-amid-financial-emergency#:~:text=New%20Jersey%20City%20University%20is,plans%20to%20expand%20NJCU's%20campus.)

It's complicated, apparently.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 15, 2022, 09:14:36 AM
Quote from: Washington PostYoung White adults who left home in the past decade tended to end up in New York. Their Black peers were most likely to end up in Atlanta. And for their Hispanic and Asian friends, the top destination was Los Angeles, according to a high-powered new analysis from researchers at the Census Bureau and Harvard University.

These maps show how tough it will be to recruit Asian, Black and Hispanic students to the many Northeast colleges and universities in the big blank swath from Kenyon in eastern Ohio to Bates in southern Maine. How effective can those schools be if they fail to reflect the demographics of America's academic future?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on August 15, 2022, 09:27:52 AM
Are you thinking SLACs, primarily, or are you including R1/Ivies, which are more diversified in the area you describe?

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on August 15, 2022, 09:45:44 AM
Quote from: Hibush on August 15, 2022, 09:14:36 AM
Quote from: Washington PostYoung White adults who left home in the past decade tended to end up in New York. Their Black peers were most likely to end up in Atlanta. And for their Hispanic and Asian friends, the top destination was Los Angeles, according to a high-powered new analysis from researchers at the Census Bureau and Harvard University.

These maps show how tough it will be to recruit Asian, Black and Hispanic students to the many Northeast colleges and universities in the big blank swath from Kenyon in eastern Ohio to Bates in southern Maine. How effective can those schools be if they fail to reflect the demographics of America's academic future?

This is fascinating! However, if I interpret the maps correctly, there is little reason for fearing clustering, for the dark colors on the maps represent a very low percentage of those in each group who moved. It's far from a uniform distribution, but what looks like clusters involve very few people.

Here, our eyes are leading us astray.

ETA: That's a criticism of the Washington Post citation. Your point is that you wish for more clustering, especially to the Northeast, which makes more sense.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 15, 2022, 01:39:07 PM
Quote from: mamselle on August 15, 2022, 09:27:52 AM
Are you thinking SLACs, primarily, or are you including R1/Ivies, which are more diversified in the area you describe?

M.

The big schools will be fine, I think. And the urban ones. In fact, Kenyon and Bates, the best of their particular kind, are probably fine also for maintaining enrollment and revenue. But the smaller privates and regional public campuses are not tops will be fighting for the declining number of local students and struggling to develop the ethnic diversity that a lot of prospective students want to see.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on August 15, 2022, 06:24:41 PM
Quote from: Hibush on August 15, 2022, 09:14:36 AM
Quote from: Washington PostYoung White adults who left home in the past decade tended to end up in New York. Their Black peers were most likely to end up in Atlanta. And for their Hispanic and Asian friends, the top destination was Los Angeles, according to a high-powered new analysis from researchers at the Census Bureau and Harvard University.

These maps show how tough it will be to recruit Asian, Black and Hispanic students to the many Northeast colleges and universities in the big blank swath from Kenyon in eastern Ohio to Bates in southern Maine. How effective can those schools be if they fail to reflect the demographics of America's academic future?

You may be right, but I don't actually think these maps speak to that. For one thing, it is where people ended up at age 26, not where they went to college-- those may be quite different (I went to college in OH, but certainly had no intention of staying there after college. I think that's pretty common). For another, these maps all look basically like a map of the fastest growing metro regions-- maybe the article addresses this (paywalled so couldn't read), but are these apparent differences actually significant? Are any of them disproportional to overall population change in those areas? Finally, as the map notes it only includes those born in the US. That leaves out an awfully large portion of US young adults.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Anon1787 on August 15, 2022, 07:23:17 PM
Quote from: Puget on August 15, 2022, 06:24:41 PM
Quote from: Hibush on August 15, 2022, 09:14:36 AM
Quote from: Washington PostYoung White adults who left home in the past decade tended to end up in New York. Their Black peers were most likely to end up in Atlanta. And for their Hispanic and Asian friends, the top destination was Los Angeles, according to a high-powered new analysis from researchers at the Census Bureau and Harvard University.
These maps show how tough it will be to recruit Asian, Black and Hispanic students to the many Northeast colleges and universities in the big blank swath from Kenyon in eastern Ohio to Bates in southern Maine. How effective can those schools be if they fail to reflect the demographics of America's academic future?
You may be right, but I don't actually think these maps speak to that. For one thing, it is where people ended up at age 26, not where they went to college-- those may be quite different (I went to college in OH, but certainly had no intention of staying there after college. I think that's pretty common). For another, these maps all look basically like a map of the fastest growing metro regions-- maybe the article addresses this (paywalled so couldn't read), but are these apparent differences actually significant? Are any of them disproportional to overall population change in those areas? Finally, as the map notes it only includes those born in the US. That leaves out an awfully large portion of US young adults.

Yes, age 26 is after college when job opportunities are key for deciding where to live. Asian-Americans are more likely to move to tech-focused (and expensive) SF-San Jose-Sacramento and aren't keen on southern cities while African-Americans (who move shorter distances on average) are more likely to move to southern cities and aren't keen on the SF area. Hispanics are more likely to favor growth areas in the Southwest.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 16, 2022, 05:07:51 AM
Quote from: Puget on August 15, 2022, 06:24:41 PM
Quote from: Hibush on August 15, 2022, 09:14:36 AM
Quote from: Washington PostYoung White adults who left home in the past decade tended to end up in New York. Their Black peers were most likely to end up in Atlanta. And for their Hispanic and Asian friends, the top destination was Los Angeles, according to a high-powered new analysis from researchers at the Census Bureau and Harvard University.

These maps show how tough it will be to recruit Asian, Black and Hispanic students to the many Northeast colleges and universities in the big blank swath from Kenyon in eastern Ohio to Bates in southern Maine. How effective can those schools be if they fail to reflect the demographics of America's academic future?

You may be right, but I don't actually think these maps speak to that. For one thing, it is where people ended up at age 26, not where they went to college-- those may be quite different (I went to college in OH, but certainly had no intention of staying there after college. I think that's pretty common). For another, these maps all look basically like a map of the fastest growing metro regions-- maybe the article addresses this (paywalled so couldn't read), but are these apparent differences actually significant? Are any of them disproportional to overall population change in those areas? Finally, as the map notes it only includes those born in the US. That leaves out an awfully large portion of US young adults.

The numbers include only people who moved from one place at age 16 to another place a age 26, not those who stayed in place. That includes those who moved away for college and did not return to their home town. I expect similar influences on regional desirability to be in play at both decision points, but there are some who look at colleges for their own sake not their location.

There is lots more at the Census Bureau: https://migrationpatterns.org/ That map is on a finer scale ("Commuting area" which looks similar to Statistical Metropolitan Area). The graphic contains an immense amount of information.  You can also see what proportion stayed (or returned). That varies from 30% in job-loss areas such as near Lake Superior to >75% in LA and NY.

You can also sort by income quintile, which will be enriched in those who likely moved to find some employment at the bottom quintile and those who got and used a college education in the top quintile.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: poiuy on August 17, 2022, 05:37:29 AM
Our college is heading towards dire, not there yet. 

We are a regional public, non-flagship campus, minority serving.

We had healthy enrolment until the pandemic, then those economic shocks, combined with declining demographics and decisions across all campuses to eliminate the SAT requirement, are leading to sustained enrollment dips on our campus over the last 2 years. Despite efforts (?) by our 'leadership', these trends are not likely to reverse soon.

This decline in undergraduate enrolment is triggering mandatory budget cuts from the system. We have already cut everything to the bone and may have to start amputating in the next very few years.

It's more painful as we are among only 3 or 4 campuses in the two systems that lost students, the flagships actually gained. HCBUs gained, which is a good thing. We do offer our undergraduates a lot, but that message is not conveying.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 17, 2022, 10:29:14 AM
Quote from: poiuy on August 17, 2022, 05:37:29 AM
Our college is heading towards dire, not there yet. 

We are a regional public, non-flagship campus, minority serving.

We had healthy enrolment until the pandemic, then those economic shocks, combined with declining demographics and decisions across all campuses to eliminate the SAT requirement, are leading to sustained enrollment dips on our campus over the last 2 years. Despite efforts (?) by our 'leadership', these trends are not likely to reverse soon.

This decline in undergraduate enrolment is triggering mandatory budget cuts from the system. We have already cut everything to the bone and may have to start amputating in the next very few years.

It's more painful as we are among only 3 or 4 campuses in the two systems that lost students, the flagships actually gained. HCBUs gained, which is a good thing. We do offer our undergraduates a lot, but that message is not conveying.

So sorry.  In many ways our current campus is undergoing the same thing yours is.

It is very demoralizing, I know. 

Keep the faith.  Start publishing.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 17, 2022, 12:02:04 PM
CHE has an article (https://www.chronicle.com/article/an-assassination-of-our-careers) from the University of Akron about the travails of faculty who were laid off, but then hired back as adjuncts at 1/3 the pay. The various players have different perspectives on the schools dire straits and prospects. Some of the now-adjunct faculty seem to still be processing the reality of a school in the last throes. Some concerns sound as if they resent being moved to a lesser cabin on a sinking Titanic, when finding a spot in a lifeboat would be more prudent. At least one former faculty member is happily elsewhere, and realizing how much she had previously been sucked in to a mentality that kept her in an untenable situation.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 17, 2022, 12:10:48 PM
This seems to be the thread for enrolment trends as well. There is [urlhttps://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/5257787/Gallup-%20Back%20to%20School/Strada_Back%20to%20School.pdf]a new Galllup/Strada survey[/url] on the plans of college dropouts. Some colleges battling decline are looking at this population as a recruiting pool.
There is bad news. About half want more education, but of that half, only 10% think a four-year college is the form it should take.

The most common form is courses offered by the employer. I thought the scuttlebutt was that employers are no longer willing to provide on-the-job training, so there is some inconsistency in that story.
The second most common seems to be free community college that will lead to a raise or promotion at work (with evening classes and daycare provided).

I hope schools hoping to draw from this pool know which subset they are after, and whether CCs, which have lost the most enrolment, can provide that last scenario.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on August 17, 2022, 01:01:09 PM
Quote from: Hibush on August 17, 2022, 12:10:48 PM
The second most common seems to be free community college that will lead to a raise or promotion at work (with evening classes and daycare provided).

I hope schools hoping to draw from this pool know which subset they are after, and whether CCs, which have lost the most enrolment, can provide that last scenario.

If our society is indeed serious about trying to give people educational opportunities to help them to improve their life situations, then this would be one good place to steer some investment and support.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on August 17, 2022, 02:39:41 PM
But some of those CC's may run the risk of becoming more Grade 13 and 14 than some already are.

I realize there are some really good ones that are not, but making it free and so on just seems to put it on a continuum with a K-12 public school (+2) mentality, stretching out the timeline in which to learn materials once learned in a more compact time frame.

And it would play into the dreams of those who would like to just ax all upper levels of education further, as well.

M. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: poiuy on August 18, 2022, 11:05:03 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 17, 2022, 10:29:14 AM

So sorry.  In many ways our current campus is undergoing the same thing yours is.

It is very demoralizing, I know. 

Keep the faith.  Start publishing.  Good luck.

Sorry to hear that Wahoo.  I hope that you are able to take similar steps and find a firmer ground.

I have been publishing.

I just got promoted to Full so am not very mobile careerwise at this stage. Industry doesn't really exist in my field. If I was a huge grant-getter that would be a different thing, but I have had a mild trickle, enough to get me promoted but not enough to make me externally competitive.

I am about 10 years away from retirement so I hope my University can survive or (dare I hope) get its act together to revive, for that much time.

I would love to make a lateral move to being a program officer at a Foundation - give out money instead of asking for it, ha! A few consulting gigs would be lovely too.  I have tried searching for such opportunities online but have not had luck so far - my networks don't seem to be robust enough and opportunities are not plentiful. If any members here have ideas I would love to hear them.

mamselle: I hear you about community colleges (especially if free) becoming K-13 and K-14.  So many young people are graduating HS without some basic skills.
The other side is how the US education system is over-reliant on college - the whole trade apprenticeship track is underemphasized. Here is where CC can (and does in many places) increase its footprint.
There is also an encouragement (maybe) of early-college classes in high school, that may reduce students' time to college graduation that is great for the students but can hurt a college's numbers and finances, especially in states where there are strong agreements to accept early college or even AP courses in undergraduate curricula.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on August 19, 2022, 05:30:23 AM
Quote from: poiuy on August 18, 2022, 11:05:03 PM
mamselle: I hear you about community colleges (especially if free) becoming K-13 and K-14.  So many young people are graduating HS without some basic skills.
The other side is how the US education system is over-reliant on college - the whole trade apprenticeship track is underemphasized. Here is where CC can (and does in many places) increase its footprint.
There is also an encouragement (maybe) of early-college classes in high school, that may reduce students' time to college graduation that is great for the students but can hurt a college's numbers and finances, especially in states where there are strong agreements to accept early college or even AP courses in undergraduate curricula.

I bet a lot of those "early-college" classes now are covering material that would have been in high school decades ago, and so many people "graduating" now would have dropped out with a year or two to go then. So the actual proportion of the population acquiring a specific level of proficiency hasn't really changed much; just the label of how much "school" they've had.

(In other words, there's been very little progress in figuring out how to get most people to achieve a higher level of proficiency, but standards and labels have changed to pretend otherwise.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on August 19, 2022, 08:36:23 AM
Since before COVID the nearest four-year college to where we live--it's the better part of an hour away--has had a solid majority of its freshman class in remedial courses each year.  They're paying college tuition to learn things that they should have mastered in high school.  It's a state school that is so unabashedly open-enrollment that it doesn't even pretend to be selective.  I wouldn't advise a local college-bound student not to go there, if it's the student's only choice, as it is for so many of our local students.  But I would advise that student to strive to be in the top of each class, not to be content to run in the middle of a rather slow-moving pack.

This is what I fear Henderson State University eventually turning into.

I don't endorse using CCs and other lower-tier public schools as "grades 13-14/16."  But that's what so very many of our young people need before they can have any chance in the workplace. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on August 19, 2022, 08:42:45 AM
Right, and I want to reiterate that I know there are very good CCs that resist the trend I described.

I think the rot sets in when elected state officials with no real educational background to speak of start playing Tiddly-Winks with the budget lines, and try to eviscerate the schools that were barely holding on and trying to do some good in their region.

If that's not a problem in your state, you're truly lucky.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 19, 2022, 08:43:40 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on August 19, 2022, 05:30:23 AM
I bet a lot of those "early-college" classes now are covering material that would have been in high school decades ago

standards and labels have changed to pretend otherwise.)

Avoid the high waisted, tight-belted curmudgeon pants, Marshy.

"You kids get off my lawn!!"
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on August 19, 2022, 10:08:46 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 19, 2022, 08:43:40 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on August 19, 2022, 05:30:23 AM
I bet a lot of those "early-college" classes now are covering material that would have been in high school decades ago

standards and labels have changed to pretend otherwise.)

Avoid the high waisted, tight-belted curmudgeon pants, Marshy.

"You kids get off my lawn!!"

When my mom was in school, 80ish years ago, high school students had to take Latin and trigonometry.

And that was in Quebec, where high school ends at Grade 11.

"You kids get off my mom's lawn!"
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 19, 2022, 12:16:25 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on August 19, 2022, 10:08:46 AM
"You kids get off my mom's lawn!"

That is actually kind of funny, Marshy.  Good job.

Still, don't be a curmudgeon. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on August 19, 2022, 12:37:03 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 19, 2022, 12:16:25 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on August 19, 2022, 10:08:46 AM
"You kids get off my mom's lawn!"

That is actually kind of funny, Marshy.  Good job.

Still, don't be a curmudgeon.

It's not intentionally curmudgeonly; it's pointing out the obvious fact (which I've thought about for decades)  that just because we would like a lot more people to achieve a certain level of education doesn't mean it's even possible, let alone that we know how to make it happen. When it was OK that only a small percentage of people finished high school, it was possible to have a demanding curriculum, and those who *failed, failed. But with the expectation that something like 70% of the population should be able to finish high school, without divine revelation about how to improve teaching, the only way for it to happen is to limit what high school covers to what it's possible for 70% of the population to do.

(* or dropped out; lots of kids didn't go past middle school at one time.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on August 21, 2022, 06:40:59 PM
There is pressure to just let dual-enrollment students pass because if they don't, they can't graduate. Schools are addicted to the money, even if it's not the same amount regular students pay for.

Quote from: marshwiggle on August 19, 2022, 05:30:23 AM
Quote from: poiuy on August 18, 2022, 11:05:03 PM
mamselle: I hear you about community colleges (especially if free) becoming K-13 and K-14.  So many young people are graduating HS without some basic skills.
The other side is how the US education system is over-reliant on college - the whole trade apprenticeship track is underemphasized. Here is where CC can (and does in many places) increase its footprint.
There is also an encouragement (maybe) of early-college classes in high school, that may reduce students' time to college graduation that is great for the students but can hurt a college's numbers and finances, especially in states where there are strong agreements to accept early college or even AP courses in undergraduate curricula.

I bet a lot of those "early-college" classes now are covering material that would have been in high school decades ago, and so many people "graduating" now would have dropped out with a year or two to go then. So the actual proportion of the population acquiring a specific level of proficiency hasn't really changed much; just the label of how much "school" they've had.

(In other words, there's been very little progress in figuring out how to get most people to achieve a higher level of proficiency, but standards and labels have changed to pretend otherwise.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on August 21, 2022, 06:46:51 PM
QuoteThere is pressure to just let dual-enrollment students pass because if they don't, they can't graduate. Schools are addicted to the money, even if it's not the same amount regular students pay for.

There is also pressure to let non dual enrollment students pass because if they don't, they can't graduate. Schools respond to incentives, and 'ya gotta meet that graduation rate goal!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Dismal on August 23, 2022, 07:14:50 AM
Quote from: Hibush on August 17, 2022, 12:02:04 PM
CHE has an article (https://www.chronicle.com/article/an-assassination-of-our-careers) from the University of Akron about the travails of faculty who were laid off, but then hired back as adjuncts at 1/3 the pay. The various players have different perspectives on the schools dire straits and prospects. Some of the now-adjunct faculty seem to still be processing the reality of a school in the last throes...

Thanks for this link. I remember following the Akron story as the jobs were being cut.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 26, 2022, 05:30:07 PM
Doonesberry cartoon about the academic job market in the '90s (https://www.reddit.com/r/academia/comments/wycw99/if_anyone_was_curious_about_the_academic_job/) found on Reddit.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on August 31, 2022, 12:35:17 PM
Henderson State University, having slashed its number of faculty and degree programs, is now down 13% in enrollment for the new semester.  They have seen marginal increases in the number of new freshmen and grad students.  Have they cut their payroll enough to get ahead of their declining enrollment and tuition revenue?


https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2022/aug/31/hsu-fall-enrollment-down-13-to-2536/?news


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 31, 2022, 02:46:41 PM
Quote from: apl68 on August 31, 2022, 12:35:17 PM
Henderson State University, having slashed its number of faculty and degree programs, is now down 13% in enrollment for the new semester.  They have seen marginal increases in the number of new freshmen and grad students.  Have they cut their payroll enough to get ahead of their declining enrollment and tuition revenue?


https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2022/aug/31/hsu-fall-enrollment-down-13-to-2536/?news

Quote
HSU's enrollment announcement Tuesday comes at a time when the school has made dramatic cuts to faculty, staff and programs due to several years of financial mismanagement.

Enrollment and student-semester credit hours are important to the state's colleges and universities partly because of the revenue they bring in from tuition and mandatory fees, as well as from on-campus food services and housing, officials have said.

The cycle: cuts = enrollment declines = cuts = enrollment declines like the little ghost girls in The Shining.  "Forever and ever and ever..."

Maybe we should just start closing these schools are redirecting the resources.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 01, 2022, 07:24:08 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 31, 2022, 02:46:41 PM
Quote from: apl68 on August 31, 2022, 12:35:17 PM
Henderson State University, having slashed its number of faculty and degree programs, is now down 13% in enrollment for the new semester.  They have seen marginal increases in the number of new freshmen and grad students.  Have they cut their payroll enough to get ahead of their declining enrollment and tuition revenue?


https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2022/aug/31/hsu-fall-enrollment-down-13-to-2536/?news

Quote
HSU's enrollment announcement Tuesday comes at a time when the school has made dramatic cuts to faculty, staff and programs due to several years of financial mismanagement.

Enrollment and student-semester credit hours are important to the state's colleges and universities partly because of the revenue they bring in from tuition and mandatory fees, as well as from on-campus food services and housing, officials have said.

The cycle: cuts = enrollment declines = cuts = enrollment declines like the little ghost girls in The Shining.  "Forever and ever and ever..."

Maybe we should just start closing these schools are redirecting the resources.

I certainly hope it doesn't come to that in this case.  Even a downsized HSU would fill an important niche in the region.  Arkansas is not one of those states that has a college campus every ten miles.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 01, 2022, 12:30:10 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 01, 2022, 07:24:08 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 31, 2022, 02:46:41 PM
Maybe we should just start closing these schools are redirecting the resources.

I certainly hope it doesn't come to that in this case.  Even a downsized HSU would fill an important niche in the region.  Arkansas is not one of those states that has a college campus every ten miles.

Well...I keep saying that a purely economic and jobs-related evaluation of higher ed will cause a great deal of damage. 

I'm not sure peeps buy that.

I think we'll have to let a lot of it burn to the ground before we decide to do something one way or the other.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on September 01, 2022, 01:04:27 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/01/opinion/us-school-knowledge.html

And yet he sees fit to draw a salary from his employer in higher ed.  Were I to predict the next decade or so in higher ed, I see one of two probable outcomes:

1.  An apocalyptic crash and burn for any institution without a big fat endowment and multiple professional degree programs that clearly lead to employment.  Arts and Sciences becomes a department, not a stand alone college.

2.  Somehow, universities learn to become much more flexible and are able to take even the "softest" programs and somehow turn them into career preparation.  Every English major has 4 required courses in technical writing.  Social Science majors get partnered up with the growing number of consulting agencies that are increasingly contracted to assist with DEI initiatives.  That sort of thing.

Were I a betting man, my money is on Door #1.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 01, 2022, 01:54:50 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 01, 2022, 07:24:08 AM
I certainly hope it doesn't come to that in this case.  Even a downsized HSU would fill an important niche in the region.  Arkansas is not one of those states that has a college campus every ten miles.

A colleague in Arkansas thought it was more like every 20 miles, though. Just about every county. Neither efficient nor matched to demand. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 01, 2022, 02:01:10 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 01, 2022, 01:04:27 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/01/opinion/us-school-knowledge.html

And yet he sees fit to draw a salary from his employer in higher ed.  Were I to predict the next decade or so in higher ed, I see one of two probable outcomes:

1.  An apocalyptic crash and burn for any institution without a big fat endowment and multiple professional degree programs that clearly lead to employment.  Arts and Sciences becomes a department, not a stand alone college.

2.  Somehow, universities learn to become much more flexible and are able to take even the "softest" programs and somehow turn them into career preparation.  Every English major has 4 required courses in technical writing.  Social Science majors get partnered up with the growing number of consulting agencies that are increasingly contracted to assist with DEI initiatives.  That sort of thing.

Were I a betting man, my money is on Door #1.

The argument is that people are not learning, so we should not try. This George Mason economist feels we shouldn't be wasting taxpayer money on education since there is no point to it. But if we are going to do so, there should be more opportunity for the private sector and wealthy schools to get their hands on it.

Cutting public funding in this way would indeed lead to dire financial straits for colleges, and also for the states and communities that depend on the actual education people are getting.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on September 01, 2022, 02:12:32 PM
QuoteAnd yet he sees fit to draw a salary from his employer in higher ed.

There is a difference between designing optimal institutions and optimally adapting to existing institutions.

QuoteThe argument is that people are not learning, so we should not try.

The argument is that people are not learning, so there is no reason to have the public pay. Let each person borrow and pay himself if he deems it worthwhile.

More generally, many arguments on this board are like arguments from any declining industry. The difference is that the decline will never be terribly big, though the structure of what it offers may well change, and that the government is involved in its financing, making the government look like mama and papa to fix all things.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on September 01, 2022, 03:19:47 PM
Quote from: Hibush on September 01, 2022, 01:54:50 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 01, 2022, 07:24:08 AM
I certainly hope it doesn't come to that in this case.  Even a downsized HSU would fill an important niche in the region.  Arkansas is not one of those states that has a college campus every ten miles.

A colleague in Arkansas thought it was more like every 20 miles, though. Just about every county. Neither efficient nor matched to demand.

I like to look at numbers, so here we go for publics in AR.

CCs - 22
4 yr "general"- 11
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 01, 2022, 06:14:54 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on September 01, 2022, 03:19:47 PM
Quote from: Hibush on September 01, 2022, 01:54:50 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 01, 2022, 07:24:08 AM
I certainly hope it doesn't come to that in this case.  Even a downsized HSU would fill an important niche in the region.  Arkansas is not one of those states that has a college campus every ten miles.

A colleague in Arkansas thought it was more like every 20 miles, though. Just about every county. Neither efficient nor matched to demand.

I like to look at numbers, so here we go for publics in AR.

CCs - 22
4 yr "general"- 11
That is a huge number for three million people.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 01, 2022, 08:34:38 PM
Quote from: dismalist on September 01, 2022, 02:12:32 PM

The argument is that people are not learning

making the government look like mama and papa to fix all things.

I understand that hyperbole is part of the way we discuss issues...but exaggeration is also a symptom of not really having anything to say----sometimes we make stuff up because we don't really have the facts to back up what we want to believe.

Just out of curiosity, who says "people are not learning?"
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on September 02, 2022, 07:15:39 AM
Quote from: dismalist on September 01, 2022, 02:12:32 PM
More generally, many arguments on this board are like arguments from any declining industry. The difference is that the decline will never be terribly big, though the structure of what it offers may well change, and that the government is involved in its financing, making the government look like mama and papa to fix all things.

One angle that I don't think has come up regarding this is illustrated by forest management practices. Back in the 1950's or so, it became the practice to try and extinguish every forest fire as soon as possible. Over the next few decades, it became apparent that this wasn't a wise decision. The periodic burns took out dead wood, and allowed forests to regrow. By preventing that, forests became much more at risk of big fires because of the build-up of deadwood etc.

(I seem to recall something similar when dams were used to prevent all flooding. Eventually it became clear that small, more regular flooding helped to reduce silt build-up, etc. which was good for the rivers.)

In the case of institutions on the brink, the more that is done to prop up all of them, the more strain that places everywhere since the declining enrollment affects everyone, whereas getting rid of some with the poorest long term prospects will allow the redistribution of resources to benefit those remaining. (Like the forest fires, demographic trends make long term changes inevitable, like it or not.)

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 02, 2022, 07:33:26 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 01, 2022, 06:14:54 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on September 01, 2022, 03:19:47 PM
Quote from: Hibush on September 01, 2022, 01:54:50 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 01, 2022, 07:24:08 AM
I certainly hope it doesn't come to that in this case.  Even a downsized HSU would fill an important niche in the region.  Arkansas is not one of those states that has a college campus every ten miles.

A colleague in Arkansas thought it was more like every 20 miles, though. Just about every county. Neither efficient nor matched to demand.

I like to look at numbers, so here we go for publics in AR.

CCs - 22
4 yr "general"- 11
That is a huge number for three million people.

But spread over an area the size of England.  And most in the northern half of the state.  Place-bound students still often have limited choices as it is.  In my town they have to go 40 miles to attend any sort of four-year college.  Losing Henderson would produce a major regional gap.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on September 02, 2022, 08:08:11 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 02, 2022, 07:33:26 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 01, 2022, 06:14:54 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on September 01, 2022, 03:19:47 PM
Quote from: Hibush on September 01, 2022, 01:54:50 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 01, 2022, 07:24:08 AM
I certainly hope it doesn't come to that in this case.  Even a downsized HSU would fill an important niche in the region.  Arkansas is not one of those states that has a college campus every ten miles.

A colleague in Arkansas thought it was more like every 20 miles, though. Just about every county. Neither efficient nor matched to demand.

I like to look at numbers, so here we go for publics in AR.

CCs - 22
4 yr "general"- 11
That is a huge number for three million people.

But spread over an area the size of England.  And most in the northern half of the state.  Place-bound students still often have limited choices as it is.  In my town they have to go 40 miles to attend any sort of four-year college.  Losing Henderson would produce a major regional gap.

Ontario  has a population of 13 million . It has an area of 1 million sq. km.
Arkansas has a population of 3 million. It has an area of 135 thousand sq. km.

Ontario has 23 universities listed, for 4 x the population with 6x the area. (Granted, the populated area is much smaller than the total.) Still, the fact that traveling within the state is a big deal is strange given that the states are much smaller than most Canadian provinces. And 40 miles (60 km) would be considered close by Canadian standards. Slightly over 1/2 hour drive is far? Lots of students commute farther than that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on September 02, 2022, 08:36:09 AM
But mindsets for families where higher education is not the norm makes even short distances away from home seem huge and daunting.

I saw that in Ohio--not Columbus, where I was raised, but not far outside it, in the towns near the larger farmland areas, SE and SW of town, where one might stop on the way down to camp in, say, Lancaster or Logan, and the storeowner would talk about the huge risk their graduating senior was taking, going to the nearby community college (not even the larger OSU campus an hour away), they hoped they'd be OK, and all.

The kid might actually have been fine about it, but I also remember those cloudy little feelings of uncertainty and fear of the unknown in high school, even having been raised in the city, when trying something new, different, or unusual within my own circle of acquaintances. Thankfully, my family was mostly supportive, and after a few trials, errors, and successes, it became less daunting, but distance for bright kids who've grown up in limited circumstances does have a dampening effect on their courage, and their parents'.

If one wants an educated voting populace in more rural areas, one needs more available higher education, whatever the cost.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 02, 2022, 09:30:17 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 02, 2022, 08:08:11 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 02, 2022, 07:33:26 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 01, 2022, 06:14:54 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on September 01, 2022, 03:19:47 PM
Quote from: Hibush on September 01, 2022, 01:54:50 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 01, 2022, 07:24:08 AM
I certainly hope it doesn't come to that in this case.  Even a downsized HSU would fill an important niche in the region.  Arkansas is not one of those states that has a college campus every ten miles.

A colleague in Arkansas thought it was more like every 20 miles, though. Just about every county. Neither efficient nor matched to demand.

I like to look at numbers, so here we go for publics in AR.

CCs - 22
4 yr "general"- 11
That is a huge number for three million people.

But spread over an area the size of England.  And most in the northern half of the state.  Place-bound students still often have limited choices as it is.  In my town they have to go 40 miles to attend any sort of four-year college.  Losing Henderson would produce a major regional gap.

Ontario  has a population of 13 million . It has an area of 1 million sq. km.
Arkansas has a population of 3 million. It has an area of 135 thousand sq. km.

Ontario has 23 universities listed, for 4 x the population with 6x the area. (Granted, the populated area is much smaller than the total.) Still, the fact that traveling within the state is a big deal is strange given that the states are much smaller than most Canadian provinces. And 40 miles (60 km) would be considered close by Canadian standards. Slightly over 1/2 hour drive is far? Lots of students commute farther than that.

The absolute certainty that I would have my concern dismissed in this manner--though I was expecting it to be from somebody using one of the huge western U.S. states as an example--nearly made me decide not to be even bother expressing it.  But I stand by what I said.  Having one of our state's regional colleges close would be a significant loss to the region.  It would be a great loss if a combination of mismanagement, poor policy decisions, etc. led to its closure.  There's the reasons that mamselle cites above, there's the major economic and cultural loss to the region that would be involved, there are other reasons.

But by all means, dismiss my concerns.  What do I know?  I only grew up in this state, attended college here, and have spent most of my adult life living and working here.  How could I possibly have any reasonable idea or opinion regarding what our state or region needs?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 02, 2022, 09:40:03 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 02, 2022, 08:08:11 AM
Still, the fact that traveling within the state is a big deal is strange given that the states are much smaller than most Canadian provinces. And 40 miles (60 km) would be considered close by Canadian standards. Slightly over 1/2 hour drive is far? Lots of students commute farther than that.

The state in question tends to be very poor.  This affects all sorts of things.  Take the students in our town.  If school or commuting is going to conflict with employment, childcare, eldercare, cost a reliable vehicle and gasoline, or require payment for room and board, forget it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on September 02, 2022, 10:15:44 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 02, 2022, 09:40:03 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 02, 2022, 08:08:11 AM
Still, the fact that traveling within the state is a big deal is strange given that the states are much smaller than most Canadian provinces. And 40 miles (60 km) would be considered close by Canadian standards. Slightly over 1/2 hour drive is far? Lots of students commute farther than that.

The state in question tends to be very poor.  This affects all sorts of things.  Take the students in our town.  If school or commuting is going to conflict with employment, childcare, eldercare, cost a reliable vehicle and gasoline, or require payment for room and board, forget it.

But this creates a huge downward spiral. If people are only going to choose places that are close to home, and relatively small, then that means that program choice is going to be very restricted. If students only have the choice of fairly "generic" programs, then by definition their studies are not likely to map very closely to their career options. So, it's going to reinforce the idea that higher education doesn't really have much relevance to employment. Thus the people considering the narrowest range of options because they aren't sure if it's worth it are most likely, because of that choice, to be disappointed with the results, confirming their earlier suspicions.

(My point has always been that recruiting students who aren't academically strong and aren't highly motivated because they don't know what they want to do is a recipe for making people question the value of higher education. If undecided students are encouraged to work or do something else for a while until they decide that the really want to attend, and know why they want to attend, then the attrition rate should be much lower and the satisfaction rate much higher, regardless of what programs they take.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 02, 2022, 10:20:03 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 02, 2022, 09:40:03 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 02, 2022, 08:08:11 AM
Still, the fact that traveling within the state is a big deal is strange given that the states are much smaller than most Canadian provinces. And 40 miles (60 km) would be considered close by Canadian standards. Slightly over 1/2 hour drive is far? Lots of students commute farther than that.

The state in question tends to be very poor.  This affects all sorts of things.  Take the students in our town.  If school or commuting is going to conflict with employment, childcare, eldercare, cost a reliable vehicle and gasoline, or require payment for room and board, forget it.

These are all factors. 

I'm well aware that by the standards of vast western states and Canadian provinces a 40-mile commute doesn't seem like much.  The culture and infrastructure in these places tend to reflect that.  Elsewhere a 40-mile commute is a more daunting proposition.  I'm sorry upon reflection that I let myself get impolite above, but it would be nice to see a greater recognition that Arkansas isn't Ontario, which isn't Ohio, which isn't New York State, which isn't etc. 

States' systems of higher education don't take the forms that they do for no reason.  It's likely that changing circumstances and demographics will lead to campus closures in some places.  Whether that would actually be a good outcome is another matter.  It's easy for people who've never been there and never experienced the circumstances of potential students in the region  and are looking down from on high to pick and choose which campuses are worthy of continued support, and which are "obviously" no longer viable or needed and ought to be sacrificed on the altar of the Great God Efficiency.  When you get to know the local situation, these decisions aren't so simple.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 02, 2022, 10:32:50 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 02, 2022, 10:15:44 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 02, 2022, 09:40:03 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 02, 2022, 08:08:11 AM
Still, the fact that traveling within the state is a big deal is strange given that the states are much smaller than most Canadian provinces. And 40 miles (60 km) would be considered close by Canadian standards. Slightly over 1/2 hour drive is far? Lots of students commute farther than that.

The state in question tends to be very poor.  This affects all sorts of things.  Take the students in our town.  If school or commuting is going to conflict with employment, childcare, eldercare, cost a reliable vehicle and gasoline, or require payment for room and board, forget it.

But this creates a huge downward spiral. If people are only going to choose places that are close to home, and relatively small, then that means that program choice is going to be very restricted.

Bingo. 

So we should support our programs, no matter where they are, so everyone has a chance to study them at a reasonable cost.  That does not seem on the table.

And you seemed to miss the part about being "poor" and maybe not having the money or the cultural & financial literacy to get to a college 40 miles away.  I think you missed that.

Quote from: marshwiggle on September 02, 2022, 10:15:44 AM
If students only have the choice of fairly "generic" programs, then by definition their studies are not likely to map very closely to their career options. So, it's going to reinforce the idea that higher education doesn't really have much relevance to employment.

Bingo.

But that does not stop people from closing programs. 

And actually, Marshy, the "career option" majors are the ones that are surviving, although it looks like we will lose our nursing program.  That scares me.

And it is okay if we look at education as more than just "relevance to employment."

Quote from: marshwiggle on September 02, 2022, 10:15:44 AM
Thus the people considering the narrowest range of options because they aren't sure if it's worth it are most likely, because of that choice, to be disappointed with the results, confirming their earlier suspicions.

Man, you are on a run!  Bingo!

Quote from: marshwiggle on September 02, 2022, 10:15:44 AM
(My point has always been that recruiting students who aren't academically strong and aren't highly motivated because they don't know what they want to do is a recipe for making people question the value of higher education. If undecided students are encouraged to work or do something else for a while until they decide that the really want to attend, and know why they want to attend, then the attrition rate should be much lower and the satisfaction rate much higher, regardless of what programs they take.)

So?  What should we do?  Everyone should have a chance at education.  No one forces the students to go to college.  From my experience, it is mostly parents who badger unwilling students into going to college. 

If you can change the modes of cultural attitudes and class prejudice, go for it.

I think the market is taking care of this anyway.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 02, 2022, 10:32:57 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 02, 2022, 10:15:44 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 02, 2022, 09:40:03 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 02, 2022, 08:08:11 AM
Still, the fact that traveling within the state is a big deal is strange given that the states are much smaller than most Canadian provinces. And 40 miles (60 km) would be considered close by Canadian standards. Slightly over 1/2 hour drive is far? Lots of students commute farther than that.

The state in question tends to be very poor.  This affects all sorts of things.  Take the students in our town.  If school or commuting is going to conflict with employment, childcare, eldercare, cost a reliable vehicle and gasoline, or require payment for room and board, forget it.

But this creates a huge downward spiral. If people are only going to choose places that are close to home, and relatively small, then that means that program choice is going to be very restricted. If students only have the choice of fairly "generic" programs, then by definition their studies are not likely to map very closely to their career options. So, it's going to reinforce the idea that higher education doesn't really have much relevance to employment. Thus the people considering the narrowest range of options because they aren't sure if it's worth it are most likely, because of that choice, to be disappointed with the results, confirming their earlier suspicions.

(My point has always been that recruiting students who aren't academically strong and aren't highly motivated because they don't know what they want to do is a recipe for making people question the value of higher education. If undecided students are encouraged to work or do something else for a while until they decide that the really want to attend, and know why they want to attend, then the attrition rate should be much lower and the satisfaction rate much higher, regardless of what programs they take.)

I don't think you're taking into account here the fact that even poor and sparsely populated areas still need people who have college educations.  They still need doctors, nurses, people who can work in IT, and so forth.  Quite a few of those people that we have with such educations have gone to that nearby four-year school.  Having a relatively nearby college campus made a real difference in their ability to get an education and use that education in their community.  These schools are still filling local needs.  Shutting them down would make fulfilling those needs more difficult.  Which could contribute to a downward spiral of its own.  A decision by a state to let a regional college campus fail could look an awful lot like a decision to write off that region as unworthy of further support that other regions of the state enjoy.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 02, 2022, 10:37:27 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 02, 2022, 10:32:57 AM
I don't think you're taking into account here the fact that even poor and sparsely populated areas still need people who have college educations.  They still need doctors, nurses, people who can work in IT, and so forth.  Quite a few of those people that we have with such educations have gone to that nearby four-year school.  Having a relatively nearby college campus made a real difference in their ability to get an education and use that education in their community.  These schools are still filling local needs.  Shutting them down would make fulfilling those needs more difficult.  Which could contribute to a downward spiral of its own.  A decision by a state to let a regional college campus fail could look an awful lot like a decision to write off that region as unworthy of further support that other regions of the state enjoy.

I've said the same things but not so well as apl.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on September 02, 2022, 11:07:02 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 02, 2022, 10:32:50 AM

So we should support our programs, no matter where they are, so everyone has a chance to study them at a reasonable cost.  That does not seem on the table.

And actually, Marshy, the "career option" majors are the ones that are surviving, although it looks like we will lose our nursing program.  That scares me.


Nursing is a good illustration of the challenge. Programs like that are very expensive and need a lot of infrastructure to operate. In addition to being able to recruit faculty to those areas, programs need labs and in addition they need access to hospitals with capacity for all of the practicums the students need. The last one is beyond what the university itself can provide. (Only a big institution is going to have its own self-contained teaching hospital, so placements are going to have to be in community hospitals.)

Quote

And it is okay if we look at education as more than just "relevance to employment."

Pardon me. I should have said "relevance to income". As you have noted earlier, like it or not, that's a big deal in peoples' minds. (And most people will equate that with the actual employment choices available.)

I'd be happy to hear of rural areas where very few people pursuing higher education (or their parents) are concerned about whether or not this will affect their future earnings.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 02, 2022, 11:11:05 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 02, 2022, 10:37:27 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 02, 2022, 10:32:57 AM
I don't think you're taking into account here the fact that even poor and sparsely populated areas still need people who have college educations.  They still need doctors, nurses, people who can work in IT, and so forth.  Quite a few of those people that we have with such educations have gone to that nearby four-year school.  Having a relatively nearby college campus made a real difference in their ability to get an education and use that education in their community.  These schools are still filling local needs.  Shutting them down would make fulfilling those needs more difficult.  Which could contribute to a downward spiral of its own.  A decision by a state to let a regional college campus fail could look an awful lot like a decision to write off that region as unworthy of further support that other regions of the state enjoy.

I've said the same things but not so well as apl.

The loss of unviable school is indeed a loss of opportunity in the region and its capacity.

The downward spiral is well on its way if people are not attending those schools, which is what we are seeing. While students technically have the ability (i.e the school is available to them) and their attendance would be beneficial to society, too few actually enroll to keep the institutions viable or to meet the communities' needs. The students are (mostly) attending larger schools or not going at all.

It's the same deal in the Northeast with both public and private schools. In recent years, the draw from rural communities in the Northeast is also affected by the anti-intellectual wave that labels colleges as indoctrination camps and such. That phenomenon reduces local political support for the education (if not for the jobs at the school).

While opportunity is lost, maintaining lots of unused opportunity indefinitely is not going to have support from those who have to pay for it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on September 02, 2022, 12:58:17 PM
Yes to what apl said upthread. One of The really big problems is that those areas were for decades supplied with local students who stayed in the area after they graduated. The institutions are being hit with both the more recent demographic shifts including fewer local students due to birthrate, out-migration relative to in-migration and the manner in which we as a country are not educating young rural and minority kids in a way that prepares them for college.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 02, 2022, 04:21:35 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 02, 2022, 11:07:02 AM
Pardon me. I should have said "relevance to income". As you have noted earlier, like it or not, that's a big deal in peoples' minds. (And most people will equate that with the actual employment choices available.)

I'd be happy to hear of rural areas where very few people pursuing higher education (or their parents) are concerned about whether or not this will affect their future earnings.

Ad nauseam, my good friend, you say the same thing that has been said ad nauseam and is never in contention in the first place.

And that attitude is part of what is happening to education.  Actually, having taught in a rural area with a great many 1st-gen students, the college degree represents something much bigger and more profound than just income.

But you are pardoned anyway. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 02, 2022, 07:59:20 PM
New Jersey university profs set to strike (https://www.nj.com/education/2022/09/professors-at-nj-university-threaten-to-strike-just-as-students-are-set-to-return.html)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Stockmann on September 03, 2022, 12:16:59 PM
It strikes me that a lot of the issues that are being blamed for some of these schools being in dire straits are systemic issues not directly to do with HE at all - and can't be solved by these institutions at all. Demographic issues, obviously, but even the thing about commuting - I'm pretty sure the students in my (non-US) institution are generally poorer, and commutes of over an hour are not uncommon - but there's a large network of cheap public transportation in the area, whereas I'm sure for most of these US institutions, horseback and mountain bike are more realistic options than public transportation (and I'm not saying horses and mountain bikes are realistic options). For a lot of these places, it doesn't sound like their HE institutions have a future other than by getting big(ger) taxpayer subsidies - and those don't look like they're forthcoming (who wants to pay for them?).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 03, 2022, 02:53:24 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on September 03, 2022, 12:16:59 PM
For a lot of these places, it doesn't sound like their HE institutions have a future other than by getting big(ger) taxpayer subsidies - and those don't look like they're forthcoming (who wants to pay for them?).

Yup.

And maybe some of these campuses in question should be closed and will be closed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on September 04, 2022, 06:52:17 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 03, 2022, 02:53:24 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on September 03, 2022, 12:16:59 PM
For a lot of these places, it doesn't sound like their HE institutions have a future other than by getting big(ger) taxpayer subsidies - and those don't look like they're forthcoming (who wants to pay for them?).

Yup.

And maybe some of these campuses in question should be closed and will be closed.

The big question is whether there should be some co-ordination in this, so that it happens with a minimum of chaos, rather than just letting everything occur haphazardly. For instance, if there are several institutions in a geographical area which are all struggling, there are probably some of them whose closing would be less painful for the entire region, including the other institutions, than others.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on September 04, 2022, 07:10:04 AM
Pennsylvania just did this by consolidating six universities down to two. Only time will tell. I can see it struggling with students reluctant to move (even a small distance) if a program is only offered at a certain campus.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 06, 2022, 05:19:33 AM
Wells College, Aurora, NY.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on September 06, 2022, 08:22:49 AM
Quote from: spork on September 06, 2022, 05:19:33 AM
Wells College, Aurora, NY.

I don't see any news items about Wells. What's the dealio?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 06, 2022, 10:00:06 AM
Quote from: downer on September 06, 2022, 08:22:49 AM
Quote from: spork on September 06, 2022, 05:19:33 AM
Wells College, Aurora, NY.

I don't see any news items about Wells. What's the dealio?
They have a new director of admissions (https://www.ithaca.edu/intercom/2022-06-23-farewell-and-best-wishes) who comes from Ithaca College, a school that may be on sounder financial footing after letting 116 faculty FTE go (https://www.ithaca.com/news/ithaca/ithaca-college-to-cut-116-positions-3-departments-17-undergrad-programs/article_cafa7108-7c43-11eb-b88e-d77eb83f1199.html) during covid. It will be a challenging job!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 07, 2022, 07:15:46 AM
For real?

UWM asks faculty to volunteer to work in the dining hall (https://www.fox6now.com/news/uwm-volunteers-for-dining-halls-sought-staff-email-shows)

Labor shortage or worse? 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on September 07, 2022, 08:05:19 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 07, 2022, 07:15:46 AM
For real?

UWM asks faculty to volunteer to work in the dining hall (https://www.fox6now.com/news/uwm-volunteers-for-dining-halls-sought-staff-email-shows)

Labor shortage or worse?

From the article:
Quote
On Friday, Sept. 2, the school administrators sent faculty and staff an email asking them to volunteer their time to cook and serve food and help clean up those dining halls.

That is freaking insane. (Not just the volunteer part, but that they're so ridiculously understaffed in the first place.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on September 07, 2022, 08:51:05 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 07, 2022, 08:05:19 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 07, 2022, 07:15:46 AM
For real?

UWM asks faculty to volunteer to work in the dining hall (https://www.fox6now.com/news/uwm-volunteers-for-dining-halls-sought-staff-email-shows)

Labor shortage or worse?

From the article:
Quote
On Friday, Sept. 2, the school administrators sent faculty and staff an email asking them to volunteer their time to cook and serve food and help clean up those dining halls.

That is freaking insane. (Not just the volunteer part, but that they're so ridiculously understaffed in the first place.)

They could hire students and pay the going wage for food service.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 07, 2022, 10:54:34 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 07, 2022, 07:15:46 AM
For real?

UWM asks faculty to volunteer to work in the dining hall (https://www.fox6now.com/news/uwm-volunteers-for-dining-halls-sought-staff-email-shows)

Labor shortage or worse?

I'm guessing labor shortage, with utterly shameless and clueless leadership in Dining Services and elsewhere in administration.  I mean, really!  You could just about see polly's "Super Dinky College" pulling something like this toward the end, but this is a large public university.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on September 07, 2022, 01:24:13 PM
We currently have a custodial staff of 10 for a campus of 15,000. They had to call in a temp service to cover the dorms. So I believe that it's a labor shortage. What they should do instead is convert all those jobs to student work study.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on September 07, 2022, 01:52:47 PM
Quote from: Mobius on September 07, 2022, 08:51:05 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 07, 2022, 08:05:19 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 07, 2022, 07:15:46 AM
For real?

UWM asks faculty to volunteer to work in the dining hall (https://www.fox6now.com/news/uwm-volunteers-for-dining-halls-sought-staff-email-shows)

Labor shortage or worse?

From the article:
Quote
On Friday, Sept. 2, the school administrators sent faculty and staff an email asking them to volunteer their time to cook and serve food and help clean up those dining halls.

That is freaking insane. (Not just the volunteer part, but that they're so ridiculously understaffed in the first place.)

They could hire students and pay the going wage for food service.

If I understand the article correctly, the university now offers free food at the margin -- eat all you want, and that, with the best of intentions. I cannot judge whether this is a bright idea or not -- how needy of food are those who are paying tuition [?] -- but I suspect not. In any case, the mess duty is voluntary, so there cannot be a problem for any faculty member.

It seems many believe that mess duty should be carried out for pay. The extra money for the extra free food has to come from somewhere.

There are no solutions, only tradeoffs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 07, 2022, 02:44:40 PM
Quote from: dismalist on September 07, 2022, 01:52:47 PM
In any case, the mess duty is voluntary, so there cannot be a problem for any faculty member.

I believe the faculty think this is idiotic.

I think it sounds demeaning for a campus setting.

Quote from: dismalist on September 07, 2022, 01:52:47 PM
It seems many believe that mess duty should be carried out for pay. The extra money for the extra free food has to come from somewhere.

No one said anything remotely like that.

Quote from: dismalist on September 07, 2022, 01:52:47 PM
There are no solutions, only tradeoffs.

Methinks the people who came up with the tradeoff should perform the tradeoff.  Let the deans, provost, and president serve the midnight snack line.

Would you volunteer, Big-D?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on September 07, 2022, 03:02:48 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 07, 2022, 02:44:40 PM
Quote from: dismalist on September 07, 2022, 01:52:47 PM
In any case, the mess duty is voluntary, so there cannot be a problem for any faculty member.

I believe the faculty think this is idiotic.

I think it sounds demeaning for a campus setting.

Quote from: dismalist on September 07, 2022, 01:52:47 PM
It seems many believe that mess duty should be carried out for pay. The extra money for the extra free food has to come from somewhere.

No one said anything remotely like that.

Quote from: dismalist on September 07, 2022, 01:52:47 PM
There are no solutions, only tradeoffs.

Methinks the people who came up with the tradeoff should perform the tradeoff.  Let the deans, provost, and president serve the midnight snack line.

Would you volunteer, Big-D?

The well endowed place I used to work for for many years came around with request to donate cash each year. I hated the firs half of my time there. I studiously ignored the requests all my time there. The now dump, not then, I studied at I give cash each year.

I'm actually good at kitchen work. If I liked the employer and the kids, I would volunteer. If not, I wouldn't.

Look, bosses do what bosses do, for better and for worse. But the mess duty is voluntary man! That can't be demeaning. If it is, don't do it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on September 07, 2022, 03:22:02 PM
This happened somewhere last year also. Don't remember where.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 07, 2022, 03:33:57 PM
Quote from: dismalist on September 07, 2022, 03:02:48 PM
Look, bosses do what bosses do, for better and for worse. But the mess duty is voluntary man! That can't be demeaning. If it is, don't do it.

By and large, I don't think they are.

More importantly, dumb ideas get bad P.R.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: RedArrow on September 07, 2022, 04:36:19 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on September 07, 2022, 03:22:02 PM
This happened somewhere last year also. Don't remember where.

It was at Michigan State: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/10/20/msu-asking-faculty-volunteer-dining-halls-amid-staffing-shortage/8538013002/ (https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/10/20/msu-asking-faculty-volunteer-dining-halls-amid-staffing-shortage/8538013002/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: onthefringe on September 07, 2022, 05:26:54 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on September 07, 2022, 01:24:13 PM
We currently have a custodial staff of 10 for a campus of 15,000. They had to call in a temp service to cover the dorms. So I believe that it's a labor shortage. What they should do instead is convert all those jobs to student work study.

You can't force students to take work study jobs (even if they are technically part of their aid package) and in many cases they can make more money working an off campus job. So unless they can find work study related to their career goals, many won't bother to take work study positions, and converting jobs to work study is unlikely to solve staffing problems (even at the "going rate" for food service jobs).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: bio-nonymous on September 07, 2022, 06:58:28 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 07, 2022, 03:33:57 PM
Quote from: dismalist on September 07, 2022, 03:02:48 PM
Look, bosses do what bosses do, for better and for worse. But the mess duty is voluntary man! That can't be demeaning. If it is, don't do it.

By and large, I don't think they are.

More importantly, dumb ideas get bad P.R.
HA! I don't have enough hours in the day to even get my own job done, much less take on bussing tables for free as a side-hustle...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on September 07, 2022, 07:25:06 PM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on September 07, 2022, 06:58:28 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 07, 2022, 03:33:57 PM
Quote from: dismalist on September 07, 2022, 03:02:48 PM
Look, bosses do what bosses do, for better and for worse. But the mess duty is voluntary man! That can't be demeaning. If it is, don't do it.

By and large, I don't think they are.

More importantly, dumb ideas get bad P.R.
HA! I don't have enough hours in the day to even get my own job done, much less take on bussing tables for free as a side-hustle...

So don't do it!

What the bosses did may be smart, may be stupid [I'm inclined to think the latter], but I don't see what the hubbub is about: Mess duty is voluntary!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 07, 2022, 07:42:13 PM
Quote from: dismalist on September 07, 2022, 07:25:06 PM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on September 07, 2022, 06:58:28 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 07, 2022, 03:33:57 PM
Quote from: dismalist on September 07, 2022, 03:02:48 PM
Look, bosses do what bosses do, for better and for worse. But the mess duty is voluntary man! That can't be demeaning. If it is, don't do it.

By and large, I don't think they are.

More importantly, dumb ideas get bad P.R.
HA! I don't have enough hours in the day to even get my own job done, much less take on bussing tables for free as a side-hustle...

So don't do it!

What the bosses did may be smart, may be stupid [I'm inclined to think the latter], but I don't see what the hubbub is about: Mess duty is voluntary!

We know you don't get it, buddy, and it's okay.  Relax.  It's time for the Washington Examiner and Glenn Beck reruns anyway.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on September 07, 2022, 09:52:45 PM
Are you likely to be able to get student work study kids to work as janitors?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: artalot on September 08, 2022, 09:27:28 AM
QuoteWhat they should do instead is convert all those jobs to student work study.
They tried something like this at Yale with first gen students. It did not go over well. The students felt like they were put in the position of being servants to the wealthy Elis. Also, work study usually pays minimum wage. It's clear that no on wants to do these jobs for minimum wage, that's why they're having trouble filling them.

Many of these jobs are filled by marginalized people who are not paid enough to afford tuition at the institution where they work. They are often outsourced so that even if tuition benefits are available to staff, they are not eligible. They are usually laid off over the summer, meaning that they have no pay and no benefits for three months out of every year. This isn't a labor shortage, it's people refusing to work under these conditions. 
I don't think the work is demeaning and that attitude feels incredibly classicist. People who work in food service and janitorial services deserve to be paid fairly and treated with respect. I think faculty should refuse to be complicit in a system that attempts to recast labor as volunteerism rather than paying a fair wage.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 08, 2022, 09:52:21 AM
Quote from: artalot on September 08, 2022, 09:27:28 AM
QuoteWhat they should do instead is convert all those jobs to student work study.
They tried something like this at Yale with first gen students. It did not go over well. The students felt like they were put in the position of being servants to the wealthy Elis. Also, work study usually pays minimum wage. It's clear that no on wants to do these jobs for minimum wage, that's why they're having trouble filling them.

Many of these jobs are filled by marginalized people who are not paid enough to afford tuition at the institution where they work. They are often outsourced so that even if tuition benefits are available to staff, they are not eligible. They are usually laid off over the summer, meaning that they have no pay and no benefits for three months out of every year. This isn't a labor shortage, it's people refusing to work under these conditions. 
I don't think the work is demeaning and that attitude feels incredibly classicist. People who work in food service and janitorial services deserve to be paid fairly and treated with respect. I think faculty should refuse to be complicit in a system that attempts to recast labor as volunteerism rather than paying a fair wage.

If the school is going to offer the elaborate dining options they seem to be offering, then they need to be prepared to pay for them.  It would be one thing to ask for volunteers to work with a one-time event, but dining services is a real job that ought to be paid like a real job.  I suppose dismalist is more or less right that there's no harm done if no effort is made to coerce faculty into "volunteering," but it still sounds incredibly out of touch to ask busy faculty members to do something like this in the first place.  Whoever came up with the idea ends up making the university look very, very foolish, and garnering some unfavorable publicity.

I can see how expecting first-generation students at an Ivy League school to do work study in the service of the more affluent could have terrible "optics."  I don't see anything inherently wrong with trying to get students whose families can't easily buy them an education to earn their keep to some extent, though.  That said, if federal work study is only paying current federal minimum wage, it's small wonder they're having trouble finding takers.

Speaking from the other side, as somebody who has worked as a staff member alongside work-study students, I've got to say that in my experience their motivation and usefulness is all over the map.  Some do great, some are pretty much useless.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 08, 2022, 11:29:53 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 07, 2022, 09:52:45 PM
Are you likely to be able to get student work study kids to work as janitors?

Actually, I was straight hourly, but I was a campus janitor as an undergrad, and for one summer as a grad student.  Of all the crappy jobs I've had, janitorial work was not that bad as long as one could stand the occasional horrorshow.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on September 08, 2022, 03:04:29 PM
I would predict their food waste will triple under their new model.  Artem U removed trays from the cafeteria.  Diners can go back multiple times, but can only bring back to their table what they can carry.  Food waste declined precipitously.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Anselm on September 10, 2022, 07:32:48 PM
My community college is asking for volunteers.  Last week I saw administrators spooning out food onto plates in the cafeteria.    I refuse to volunteer for several reasons but mostly because I am just too busy.  They are also serving food on styrofoam plates due to a lack of dishwashers.   It never occurs to them to actually raise wages.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 11, 2022, 06:01:18 PM
Quote from: Anselm on September 10, 2022, 07:32:48 PM
My community college is asking for volunteers.  Last week I saw administrators spooning out food onto plates in the cafeteria.    I refuse to volunteer for several reasons but mostly because I am just too busy.  They are also serving food on styrofoam plates due to a lack of dishwashers.   It never occurs to them to actually raise wages.
Are they providing more value to the institution as lunch servers than doing whatever is going undone in the admin building?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Anselm on September 11, 2022, 06:33:26 PM
Quote from: Hibush on September 11, 2022, 06:01:18 PM
Quote from: Anselm on September 10, 2022, 07:32:48 PM
My community college is asking for volunteers.  Last week I saw administrators spooning out food onto plates in the cafeteria.    I refuse to volunteer for several reasons but mostly because I am just too busy.  They are also serving food on styrofoam plates due to a lack of dishwashers.   It never occurs to them to actually raise wages.
Are they providing more value to the institution as lunch servers than doing whatever is going undone in the admin building?

I am posting here in my office so I must be very careful in how I reply.

I did ask one of them if they had been demoted.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 12, 2022, 08:20:05 AM
Quote from: Anselm on September 11, 2022, 06:33:26 PM
Quote from: Hibush on September 11, 2022, 06:01:18 PM
Quote from: Anselm on September 10, 2022, 07:32:48 PM
My community college is asking for volunteers.  Last week I saw administrators spooning out food onto plates in the cafeteria.    I refuse to volunteer for several reasons but mostly because I am just too busy.  They are also serving food on styrofoam plates due to a lack of dishwashers.   It never occurs to them to actually raise wages.
Are they providing more value to the institution as lunch servers than doing whatever is going undone in the admin building?

I am posting here in my office so I must be very careful in how I reply.

I did ask one of them if they had been demoted.

Are they demonstrating vigorous self-demotion in order to set an example for the faculty?

This management approach is novel to me, so sorry if my questions seem naive.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on September 12, 2022, 09:00:11 AM
It's one thing for EAs to be asked to contribute to a sudden "all-hands-on-deck" need that has just arisen or is larger than the usual affair run by the caterers, etc.

It's another to have that expectation hanging over your head all the time you're trying to set up course shells, edit class syllabi, prep article submissions, and do all the nitty-gritty student onboarding and admin tasks that come up every day as well.

So, most EAs would do quiet walk-backs after the first such request, just to preserve their sanity.

One gets pretty good at it.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: bio-nonymous on September 13, 2022, 06:23:24 AM
Quote from: dismalist on September 07, 2022, 07:25:06 PM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on September 07, 2022, 06:58:28 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 07, 2022, 03:33:57 PM
Quote from: dismalist on September 07, 2022, 03:02:48 PM
Look, bosses do what bosses do, for better and for worse. But the mess duty is voluntary man! That can't be demeaning. If it is, don't do it.

By and large, I don't think they are.

More importantly, dumb ideas get bad P.R.
HA! I don't have enough hours in the day to even get my own job done, much less take on bussing tables for free as a side-hustle...

So don't do it!


Obviously.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 13, 2022, 10:45:20 AM
Chatfield College in Ohio will close in December. Trustees and administration should have shut the place down at the end of the spring semester at the latest, but they decided it was better to be completely irresponsible.

There are several colleges in upstate New York that are on thin ice.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on September 13, 2022, 04:23:59 PM
Quote from: spork on September 13, 2022, 10:45:20 AM
Chatfield College in Ohio will close in December. Trustees and administration should have shut the place down at the end of the spring semester at the latest, but they decided it was better to be completely irresponsible.

There are several colleges in upstate New York that are on thin ice.

Isn't Chatfield one of those rare bird private 2-year liberal arts colleges? I'm surprised that Chatfield lasted as long as it did.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on September 13, 2022, 04:29:02 PM
I'm wondering which Upstate NY schools you think are on the thin(nest) ice. Potsdam is swirling I think, and I can think of one other that seems somewhere on the other side of Dire. Articles? Links?

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 13, 2022, 08:16:26 PM
Quote from: selecter on September 13, 2022, 04:29:02 PM
I'm wondering which Upstate NY schools you think are on the thin(nest) ice. Potsdam is swirling I think, and I can think of one other that seems somewhere on the other side of Dire. Articles? Links?

Forbes has one for private schools. https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawhitford/2022/06/09/the-strongest-and-weakest-colleges-in-america---behind-forbes-2022-financial-grades/

Here are some from that region (you can sort by state).
While Potsdam is public, neighbor Clarkson looks ill.
Spork will note that Wells is missing from the list.
Hamilton     A+
Vassar        A+
Colgate        A+
Union        A
Rochester      A-
Skidmore     A-
Rochester IT   B+
Syracuse        B
Alfred        B
Houghton     B-
Le Moyne     B-
St John Fisher  C+
D'Youville     C+
Ursinus        C+
Ithaca        C+
Rensselaer Poly C+
Nazareth        C+
Sarah Lawrence  C
Siena        C-
Paul Smiths    C-
Canisius        C-
Utica        C-
Roberts Wesleyan C-
Medaille        D
Clarkson       D
Saint Rose      D
Cazenovia      D
Sage Colleges   D
Keuka           D
Elmira        D
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 14, 2022, 03:09:33 AM
Notre Dame of Maryland University will become a co-ed institution because of financial problems. It ran deficits in FYs 2017-2019, balanced its budget in FY 2020 only because of $3.5 million in asset sales and in FY 2021 only because of federal stimulus money.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 14, 2022, 07:35:59 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 13, 2022, 08:16:26 PM
Quote from: selecter on September 13, 2022, 04:29:02 PM
I'm wondering which Upstate NY schools you think are on the thin(nest) ice. Potsdam is swirling I think, and I can think of one other that seems somewhere on the other side of Dire. Articles? Links?

Forbes has one for private schools. https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawhitford/2022/06/09/the-strongest-and-weakest-colleges-in-america---behind-forbes-2022-financial-grades/


Sigh.  One of these colleges in the "C" range has a job opening that I am planning on applying to.

Anybody have any insight into the accuracy of the Forbes review?  Probably like most people, I am familiar with a handful of these schools.  Some that I know of make sense for their grade, but one that I know about is on solid financial footing, at least as far as I know.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 14, 2022, 05:21:33 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 14, 2022, 07:35:59 AM
Sigh.  One of these colleges in the "C" range has a job opening that I am planning on applying to.

Anybody have any insight into the accuracy of the Forbes review?  Probably like most people, I am familiar with a handful of these schools.  Some that I know of make sense for their grade, but one that I know about is on solid financial footing, at least as far as I know.

The Forbes ratings are rough, like any alt metric. In the C range we have a real mix.  Sarah Lawrence I suspect would be rescued by even more ardent alumnae than Sweet Briar shoud things get tough. Ithaca was nationally notable for streamlining the offerings and making 118 faculty redundant in the process. That may have fixed their near-term finances. RPI's fabulously overcompensated president has not been the rainmaker they pay for recently. Paul Smiths rejected becoming a wealthy woman's poodle, but that may have dire financial consequences since it is a tiny and remote school. St John Fisher got some bad press when they withdrew a faculty offer because the candidate asked for a bit more salary--which is not something a fiscally sound school would do.

These observations are mostly from morbid fascination with reading news reports of schools messing up.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: glowdart on September 14, 2022, 09:30:56 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 14, 2022, 07:35:59 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 13, 2022, 08:16:26 PM
Quote from: selecter on September 13, 2022, 04:29:02 PM
I'm wondering which Upstate NY schools you think are on the thin(nest) ice. Potsdam is swirling I think, and I can think of one other that seems somewhere on the other side of Dire. Articles? Links?

Forbes has one for private schools. https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawhitford/2022/06/09/the-strongest-and-weakest-colleges-in-america---behind-forbes-2022-financial-grades/


Sigh.  One of these colleges in the "C" range has a job opening that I am planning on applying to.

Anybody have any insight into the accuracy of the Forbes review?  Probably like most people, I am familiar with a handful of these schools.  Some that I know of make sense for their grade, but one that I know about is on solid financial footing, at least as far as I know.

Covid cost us our ranking in that list, which was always impacted by our high percentage of operating budget coming from tuition, but we have had strong enrollment numbers since the 2020 fall small class. Some of the D schools near us are hemorrhaging staff and faculty —and we keep hiring their staff. I'm unsure how some of them are still operational.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on September 15, 2022, 03:46:07 AM
I've got some detailed knowledge of some of the schools in the last half of the list, and I'll have to look up the Forbes methodology, but from a glimpse I'd say the list is a bit scattershot and is lagging reality, but isn't fiction. Some schools are flattered by the list, and others are punished for out-of-date info. IMO, Paul Smith's is worse than that C-, and Keuka is likely worse than that D, and St. John Fisher is on firm footing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 15, 2022, 07:43:38 AM
Looks like Paul Smith's is merging with some kind of education corporation--ostensibly nonprofit:


https://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/news/local-news/2022/08/paul-smiths-college-merges-with-educational-nonprofit/


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: treeoflife on September 15, 2022, 08:26:02 AM
Once an important scholarly center is now selling its campus
https://jewishjournal.com/community/351460/american-jewish-university-announces-plans-to-sell-bel-air-campus-to-international-education-company/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 15, 2022, 09:46:24 AM
Quote from: treeoflife on September 15, 2022, 08:26:02 AM
Once an important scholarly center is now selling its campus
https://jewishjournal.com/community/351460/american-jewish-university-announces-plans-to-sell-bel-air-campus-to-international-education-company/
A 35 acre campus in a neighborhood where residential properties are $10 million an acre should bring in a fair bit of money to support their main campus.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: treeoflife on September 15, 2022, 11:19:57 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 15, 2022, 09:46:24 AM
Quote from: treeoflife on September 15, 2022, 08:26:02 AM
Once an important scholarly center is now selling its campus
https://jewishjournal.com/community/351460/american-jewish-university-announces-plans-to-sell-bel-air-campus-to-international-education-company/
A 35 acre campus in a neighborhood where residential properties are $10 million an acre should bring in a fair bit of money to support their main campus.

That was their main campus, it seems they will do mostly online courses and have a small physical campus somewhere in CA. I doubt they will survive much longer, they simply do not attract students. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 18, 2022, 07:58:12 AM
Quote from: spork on September 14, 2022, 03:09:33 AM
Notre Dame of Maryland University will become a co-ed institution because of financial problems. It ran deficits in FYs 2017-2019, balanced its budget in FY 2020 only because of $3.5 million in asset sales and in FY 2021 only because of federal stimulus money.
The followup in WaPo  (https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/09/18/notre-dame-maryland-university-coed-college/)has some data. The school has 800 undergrads. The coed gradprogram is larger at 1400. So it is not as if the campus provided an all-female environment. 

There are currently 29 womens colleges in the US. The enrolment challenges suggest this number has the capacity no meet the demand.

There is a potential structural economic issue that goes unstated, namely that they have switched to a student body that pays a lot less. The school was designed to train wealthy Catholic women of Baltimore. When demand for that specific service declined, and the desire to be more inclusive became stronger, they began admitting students who need more aid. That is a great goal, but you can't rely on the same business model if the current and future income from students shrinks.
Related to the business model, how have they managed shifts in support from the diocese or the higher cost of lay instructors? That happened longer ago, but is rather fundaments.

The sketchy move by the administration was to do this secretly. The board didn't even tell the faculty and student trustees, who heard about it with the rest of the public. You can't get buy in to a big change that way. Instead of persuading people that this was worth a try, they will do damage control afterwards. But people are free to leave if they feel damaged.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on September 18, 2022, 11:34:06 AM
I'm afraid that all single sex schools (I know there aren't that many, but together, its thousands of students)  will face these same difficulties. Wellesley  probably won't, but everyone else will, or already has many years ago.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on September 18, 2022, 12:12:26 PM
Might be the exception? Small enrollment (stable), but endowment is fine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabash_College
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on September 18, 2022, 05:34:14 PM
I think a few have significant endowments, but enrollments are often a challenge. With enough money, you could chug along for as long as you want, but (but reducing staff and physical plant, probably) you may not have much enrollment. I realize Wabash is not that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 19, 2022, 11:31:26 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 18, 2022, 07:58:12 AM
Quote from: spork on September 14, 2022, 03:09:33 AM
Notre Dame of Maryland University will become a co-ed institution because of financial problems. It ran deficits in FYs 2017-2019, balanced its budget in FY 2020 only because of $3.5 million in asset sales and in FY 2021 only because of federal stimulus money.
The followup in WaPo  (https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/09/18/notre-dame-maryland-university-coed-college/)has some data. The school has 800 undergrads. The coed gradprogram is larger at 1400. So it is not as if the campus provided an all-female environment. 

There are currently 29 womens colleges in the US. The enrolment challenges suggest this number has the capacity no meet the demand.

There is a potential structural economic issue that goes unstated, namely that they have switched to a student body that pays a lot less. The school was designed to train wealthy Catholic women of Baltimore. When demand for that specific service declined, and the desire to be more inclusive became stronger, they began admitting students who need more aid. That is a great goal, but you can't rely on the same business model if the current and future income from students shrinks.
Related to the business model, how have they managed shifts in support from the diocese or the higher cost of lay instructors? That happened longer ago, but is rather fundaments.

The sketchy move by the administration was to do this secretly. The board didn't even tell the faculty and student trustees, who heard about it with the rest of the public. You can't get buy in to a big change that way. Instead of persuading people that this was worth a try, they will do damage control afterwards. But people are free to leave if they feel damaged.

IHE reports student and alumnae protests.  Can't blame them, if the administration has made such a fundamental choice about the school's future without proper consultation.  If this decision to go co-ed is all about trying to get more paying students, then one wonders how they're going to brand themselves in the future.  "Women's college" may not be proving a very lucrative niche in today's world, but it is a definite niche.  Without that, do they have anything that makes them stand out from a number of other not-so-well-known SLAC's?  Sounds like the sort of desperate fiscally-motivated move that posters here have likened to a "Hail Mary" play.  Well, it is a Catholic school....
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 19, 2022, 01:26:24 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 19, 2022, 11:31:26 AM
n.  If this decision to go co-ed is all about trying to get more paying students, then one wonders how they're going to brand themselves in the future.  "Women's college" may not be proving a very lucrative niche in today's world, but it is a definite niche.  Without that, do they have anything that makes them stand out from a number of other not-so-well-known SLAC's?  Sounds like the sort of desperate fiscally-motivated move that posters here have likened to a "Hail Mary" play.

We need great niche schools.

Women's college is an important one, even if the demand for it is declining. Most of the decline is because women can attend and succeed at mainstream schools, which was not true even into the 1960s.

HBCUs is another important niche, although with shrinking demand and often a lack of resources. Keeping a sufficient number healthy so they can meet the true demand with a quality education is crucial. Improved conditions for Black students at mainstream schools is also good even if it reduced HBCU demand.

I like the high performing hippie schools. But that is also a shrinking niche.

Service academies seem to be matching their mission and enrollment targets.

The nichiest of the niece schools is probably Deep Springs. But they fill their niche all by themselves. They offer free tuition room and board, and went coed a while back, both policies that help keep enrollment up. And how big is that niche? The college enrolls up to 30 students.  (https://www.deepsprings.edu/frequently-asked-questions/)

What are some other niches that are small, but important for those they are for?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 19, 2022, 05:51:49 PM
We got the email today.  No final decisions have been made, and things are still in flux, but we had another 4% enrollment downturn.   We have a hefty list of departments which will either be eliminated or sliced and diced.  It is an amazingly sweeping list that includes business, STEM, nursing, criminal justice, music, art, education, physics, astronomy, humanities, English, and several masters programs.  My wife's (and my former) department is on the list, and while they will need to employ some of us to fulfill requirements, everything is sour and frightening.   

I understand that admin have a terrible series of choices to make, but what will be left of the university when they are done? 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on September 19, 2022, 06:29:14 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 19, 2022, 05:51:49 PM
We got the email today.  No final decisions have been made, and things are still in flux, but we had another 4% enrollment downturn.   We have a hefty list of departments which will either be eliminated or sliced and diced.  It is an amazingly sweeping list that includes business, STEM, nursing, criminal justice, music, art, education, physics, astronomy, humanities, English, and several masters programs.  My wife's (and my former) department is on the list, and while they will need to employ some of us to fulfill requirements, everything is sour and frightening.   

I understand that admin have a terrible series of choices to make, but what will be left of the university when they are done

Only the "easy" majors will be left (browse the programs of your friendly neighborhood online for-profit school, for examples), because it looks the programs on the chopping block are the ones that require talent, preparation, tenacity, and hard work.

So sorry to hear of this, but you are better off by not being around a school that can only have "easy" majors in order to retain students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on September 19, 2022, 06:33:53 PM
Sorry to hear it, Wahoo. I feel like I've seen worse -- the college closed w/3 months notice, had to teach everybody out while everyone wondered where paychecks were coming from -- but falling is falling. I hope y'all can right the ship, and that your side of the boat stays up throughout.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 19, 2022, 09:24:37 PM
Thanks folks.  This is one of those struggling, grungy, underfunded R2s that Polly_Mere in her heyday was always on about.

Admin seems to think there is a bottoming-out and stabilization in the future if trends continue (approximately 2 or maybe 3 thousand fewer students than we have now going down by 4% or 5% every year) that will create a much smaller but operable school.  Our part of the country is seeing this all over as residents permanently move away and students opt for sunny climes.  It's kind of all the things people have been talking about.

And it is that cycle that we see in which a school drops a program because the classes are under-enrolled, which is necessary financial trimming, but a number of those students who were in that program depart for another school which maintains their program, which takes a chunk out of tuition and FTE money at our school, so the school looses another 4% enrollment that year, etc. etc.

This happened fast too.  A trickle at first, and then a crack in the dam, and then this.  Personally, I wonder if I we are seeing the lingering demise of a public R2, but I really don't know.

Wonder how long this trend is going to go on?  I mean, we will still need colleges.  Are their any predictions about when we will become stable (if smaller, lighter) institutions again?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Anon1787 on September 19, 2022, 10:16:11 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 19, 2022, 11:31:26 AM
IHE reports student and alumnae protests.  Can't blame them, if the administration has made such a fundamental choice about the school's future without proper consultation.  If this decision to go co-ed is all about trying to get more paying students, then one wonders how they're going to brand themselves in the future.  "Women's college" may not be proving a very lucrative niche in today's world, but it is a definite niche.  Without that, do they have anything that makes them stand out from a number of other not-so-well-known SLAC's?  Sounds like the sort of desperate fiscally-motivated move that posters here have likened to a "Hail Mary" play.  Well, it is a Catholic school....

I'm guessing that it's also easier to ask for forgiveness than to get permission at a Catholic school.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 20, 2022, 07:53:26 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 19, 2022, 05:51:49 PM
We got the email today.  No final decisions have been made, and things are still in flux, but we had another 4% enrollment downturn.   We have a hefty list of departments which will either be eliminated or sliced and diced.  It is an amazingly sweeping list that includes business, STEM, nursing, criminal justice, music, art, education, physics, astronomy, humanities, English, and several masters programs.  My wife's (and my former) department is on the list, and while they will need to employ some of us to fulfill requirements, everything is sour and frightening.   

I understand that admin have a terrible series of choices to make, but what will be left of the university when they are done?

Are there any notable programs that your school has that aren't on that list?  I'm trying to picture what would be left if even things like education, business, and nursing are going away.  What would there be left for the school to try to rally around?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 20, 2022, 07:57:08 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 19, 2022, 05:51:49 PM
We got the email today.  No final decisions have been made, and things are still in flux, but we had another 4% enrollment downturn.   We have a hefty list of departments which will either be eliminated or sliced and diced.  It is an amazingly sweeping list that includes business, STEM, nursing, criminal justice, music, art, education, physics, astronomy, humanities, English, and several masters programs.  My wife's (and my former) department is on the list, and while they will need to employ some of us to fulfill requirements, everything is sour and frightening.   

I understand that admin have a terrible series of choices to make, but what will be left of the university when they are done?

Sorry to get the news about this, Wahoo.  Do you think your wife is likely to make it through the cutbacks, or is all that uncertain right now?  I know that layoffs like this hit communities hard.  Our town's leading employer laid off literally half their workforce just over three years ago. 

You may or may not welcome this, but I will be praying for you and your wife and community.  It's what I know to do.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 20, 2022, 08:21:11 AM
Thank you, apl.  We think she is *likely* safe for a couple of reasons, but we are not certain by any means.  I appreciate the prayers.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on September 20, 2022, 09:31:02 AM
Mine, too, then.

Scary place to be.

And the survivors often end up having several other folks' desks tipped sideways onto theirs, making the pathway out of the mire stressful as well.

All good thoughts to you both.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on September 20, 2022, 09:55:56 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 20, 2022, 07:53:26 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 19, 2022, 05:51:49 PM
We got the email today.  No final decisions have been made, and things are still in flux, but we had another 4% enrollment downturn.   We have a hefty list of departments which will either be eliminated or sliced and diced.  It is an amazingly sweeping list that includes business, STEM, nursing, criminal justice, music, art, education, physics, astronomy, humanities, English, and several masters programs.  My wife's (and my former) department is on the list, and while they will need to employ some of us to fulfill requirements, everything is sour and frightening.   

I understand that admin have a terrible series of choices to make, but what will be left of the university when they are done?

Are there any notable programs that your school has that aren't on that list?  I'm trying to picture what would be left if even things like education, business, and nursing are going away.  What would there be left for the school to try to rally around?

I was guessing Wahoo meant some of STEM, some of humanities, along with other things. Because if all of those things are gone, I can't see what's left either.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on September 20, 2022, 10:46:19 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 19, 2022, 05:51:49 PM
We got the email today.  No final decisions have been made, and things are still in flux, but we had another 4% enrollment downturn.   We have a hefty list of departments which will either be eliminated or sliced and diced.  It is an amazingly sweeping list that includes business, STEM, nursing, criminal justice, music, art, education, physics, astronomy, humanities, English, and several masters programs.  My wife's (and my former) department is on the list, and while they will need to employ some of us to fulfill requirements, everything is sour and frightening.   

I understand that admin have a terrible series of choices to make, but what will be left of the university when they are done?

That's awful. How much of it will be based on which departments are easiest to cut (most adjuncts, fewest tenured faculty), rather than enrollment and future college needs?

Unfortunately, that's what our college did... resulting in students being turned away because the decision-maker was mad at a few faculty departments and afraid of a few others.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 20, 2022, 11:18:44 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 20, 2022, 09:55:56 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 20, 2022, 07:53:26 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 19, 2022, 05:51:49 PM
We got the email today.  No final decisions have been made, and things are still in flux, but we had another 4% enrollment downturn.   We have a hefty list of departments which will either be eliminated or sliced and diced.  It is an amazingly sweeping list that includes business, STEM, nursing, criminal justice, music, art, education, physics, astronomy, humanities, English, and several masters programs.  My wife's (and my former) department is on the list, and while they will need to employ some of us to fulfill requirements, everything is sour and frightening.   

I understand that admin have a terrible series of choices to make, but what will be left of the university when they are done?

Are there any notable programs that your school has that aren't on that list?  I'm trying to picture what would be left if even things like education, business, and nursing are going away.  What would there be left for the school to try to rally around?

I was guessing Wahoo meant some of STEM, some of humanities, along with other things. Because if all of those things are gone, I can't see what's left either.

The list is vague at this point, so we are uncertain what the provost (who appears to be incompetent on several fronts) means.  Certainly admin cannot completely cut everything on the list.  We do not have strong engineering or much geology, for instance, and only a few chemistry majors (or next door neighbor is a chemistry professor) so these programs will probably survive but be cut to the nub.

Just a few minutes ago we got some inside information that my wife's program is actually in the "grow" category and our graduate program is in the "sustain" category; our single most important offshoot, however, Professional and Technical Writing, is probably on the chopping block----this is the major that actually gets students internships and has great hiring potential after graduation.  It also has some of our best and most innovative faculty.  PTW is small, however, and that's probably the killer.  On some level this is insane.

Most of these decisions seem to be driven by the reports generated from an "outside consultant."

BTW, I thought our scenario might be interesting as an inside look at a college in dire financial straights, lest anyone think I am simply being self-pitying and indulgent (which I am).  Thanks for the support anyway.  It does help.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 20, 2022, 11:25:16 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 20, 2022, 10:46:19 AM
That's awful. How much of it will be based on which departments are easiest to cut (most adjuncts, fewest tenured faculty), rather than enrollment and future college needs?

This is the subject of much conjecture among the ranks.  We theorize that admin is taking aim at the union; it appears that some of the NTT who survived had opted out of union membership.  It appears that they are next on the chopping block, however, so at best they gained another six months of employment.

I know that I had one very angry student in my World Literature class last semester who was transferring to our local R1 competitor because the classes she wanted to take as a major had vanished at our uni.  I figured where there is one there are many more like that one, which is where I think I see this cycle of cutting = loss of students= cutting = loss of students etc. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: rth253 on September 21, 2022, 11:21:21 PM
Wahoox, sorry how to hear about your school. Can I ask how big it is? Public? Private?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: no1capybara on September 22, 2022, 01:08:40 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 19, 2022, 01:26:24 PM
We need great niche schools.

Women's college is an important one, even if the demand for it is declining. Most of the decline is because women can attend and succeed at mainstream schools, which was not true even into the 1960s.

HBCUs is another important niche, although with shrinking demand and often a lack of resources. Keeping a sufficient number healthy so they can meet the true demand with a quality education is crucial. Improved conditions for Black students at mainstream schools is also good even if it reduced HBCU demand.

I like the high performing hippie schools. But that is also a shrinking niche.

Service academies seem to be matching their mission and enrollment targets.

The nichiest of the niece schools is probably Deep Springs. But they fill their niche all by themselves. They offer free tuition room and board, and went coed a while back, both policies that help keep enrollment up. And how big is that niche? The college enrolls up to 30 students.  (https://www.deepsprings.edu/frequently-asked-questions/)

What are some other niches that are small, but important for those they are for?

I'm going to start a thread on this, it's interesting

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: artalot on September 22, 2022, 12:04:19 PM
Sorry to hear this Wahoo. This happened at my uni several years ago. Our usually divided faculty united and were eventually able to oust the president and provost. We lost a few programs (mostly arts and humanities) and 20% of our faculty, mostly to retirement and flight to the private sector. We have a new president and provost and have seen some modest re-growth, with promises for more if revenue/enrollment targets are hit. It's been a terrible few years, but I do feel like we're turning a corner. 
We're private and tuition dependent, and I think the faculty's refusal to help recruit new students and sustained barrage of negative op-ed pieces in the press and on social media tanked enrollment and convinced the board that the situation wasn't sustainable. It may be harder to turn the boat around at a larger public institution, but perhaps some good old-fashioned student and faculty insurrection could help. If you have any cranks, now is the time to stir them up. Ours really saved the place.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 22, 2022, 03:36:15 PM
Quote from: rth253 on September 21, 2022, 11:21:21 PM
Wahoox, sorry how to hear about your school. Can I ask how big it is? Public? Private?

Public R2 (which is kind of a joke considering how little actual research this place produces).  Urban in a very small, dying "downtown" area.  Was 13K when we got here nine years ago, now around 11K and falling. 

The Board of Trustees' summary lists the cost of our losing football team as $3.2M with a revenue of $700K.

Good news, however!!!! Found out we are getting a new "hitting coach" for the baseball team this year.  Things are looking up!!!!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 22, 2022, 03:37:24 PM
Quote from: artalot on September 22, 2022, 12:04:19 PM
Sorry to hear this Wahoo. This happened at my uni several years ago. Our usually divided faculty united and were eventually able to oust the president and provost. We lost a few programs (mostly arts and humanities) and 20% of our faculty, mostly to retirement and flight to the private sector. We have a new president and provost and have seen some modest re-growth, with promises for more if revenue/enrollment targets are hit. It's been a terrible few years, but I do feel like we're turning a corner. 
We're private and tuition dependent, and I think the faculty's refusal to help recruit new students and sustained barrage of negative op-ed pieces in the press and on social media tanked enrollment and convinced the board that the situation wasn't sustainable. It may be harder to turn the boat around at a larger public institution, but perhaps some good old-fashioned student and faculty insurrection could help. If you have any cranks, now is the time to stir them up. Ours really saved the place.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on September 22, 2022, 04:11:46 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 22, 2022, 03:36:15 PM
Quote from: rth253 on September 21, 2022, 11:21:21 PM
Wahoox, sorry how to hear about your school. Can I ask how big it is? Public? Private?

Public R2 (which is kind of a joke considering how little actual research this place produces).  Urban in a very small, dying "downtown" area.  Was 13K when we got here nine years ago, now around 11K and falling. 

The Board of Trustees' summary lists the cost of our losing football team as $3.2M with a revenue of $700K.

Good news, however!!!! Found out we are getting a new "hitting coach" for the baseball team this year.  Things are looking up!!!!

To be fair, though, baseball and softball are only allowed to have three paid coaches (head and two assistants). My guess is their salaries are awful unless it's your R2 happens to be a rare place that pays assistants outside of football and baseball well.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 22, 2022, 04:49:11 PM
Quote from: Mobius on September 22, 2022, 04:11:46 PM
My guess is their salaries are awful unless it's your R2 happens to be a rare place that pays assistants outside of football and baseball well.

Probably paid better than I was as a FT NTT.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mahagonny on September 22, 2022, 04:55:03 PM
Sorry, Wahoo.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 22, 2022, 05:10:23 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on September 22, 2022, 04:55:03 PM
Sorry, Wahoo.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 24, 2022, 04:21:26 PM
Manhattanville College.

Probably Allegheny College also.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 06, 2022, 08:55:34 AM
Northwood University. Decline in undergraduate FTE enrollment of 19% from FY 2020 to FY 2021. ~ $10 million deficit on total operating expenses of $78 million in FY 2020. Net revenue of $6.5 million in FY 2021 because of $7.7 million in federal grants in FY 2021. Undergraduate FTE enrollment has decreased 40% since FY 2008.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on October 06, 2022, 12:53:38 PM
Quote from: spork on September 24, 2022, 04:21:26 PM
Manhattanville College.

Probably Allegheny College also.

Spork, I couldn't figure out where/who you were responding to with the schools above, aside from them being on thin ice for some reason or another.

I saw this recently https://www.erienewsnow.com/story/47422705/allegheny-college-offers-students-free-tuition
Is there another reason you name dropped Allegheny?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 06, 2022, 04:27:06 PM
Yes. FYs 2018-2020 it sold off $9-$14 million in assets each year. For FY 2020, this resulted in net revenue of only $678,000. In FY 2021, it pulled in $26 million in net tuition revenue while total expenditures were $71 million. The difference was made up by $20 million in investment income designated for operations, $7 million in private gifts, and $15 million in auxiliary enterprises (dorms, meal plan). It is not generating enough tuition revenue to be viable, because its FTE undergraduate enrollment dropped by 25% from FY 2008 to FY 2021.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 10, 2022, 11:04:39 AM
Central College. There was a puff piece about it in Inside Higher Ed today. President is crowing about increased yield in admissions because number of applications has plummeted. Central College has lost a third of its undergraduate FTE enrollment since 2009 (to 1,100 in FY 2021) and has run deficits annually from FY 2017. This includes negative net revenue of $1.5 million in FY 2021 despite receiving over $9 million in federal grants.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on October 10, 2022, 11:54:22 AM
Quote from: spork on October 10, 2022, 11:04:39 AM
Central College. There was a puff piece about it in Inside Higher Ed today. President is crowing about increased yield in admissions because number of applications has plummeted. Central College has lost a third of its undergraduate FTE enrollment since 2009 (to 1,100 in FY 2021) and has run deficits annually from FY 2017. This includes negative net revenue of $1.5 million in FY 2021 despite receiving over $9 million in federal grants.

The last paragraph of the article is pretty telling.

He added, "The only reason I can see for pursuing this strategy is that there is a very strong core market of applicants each year and it's expected to continue, it's comprised of a very diverse set of applicants and yield is so low that you feel you can effectively enroll a class that will meet all your goals. Or you just don't have the staff and/or budget to continue to reach out to prospects and so have no other choice than to try and rationalize your forced decision."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 12, 2022, 02:11:05 AM
As reporting in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune, Bethel University is eliminating nine niche academic programs because of low enrollment. In FY 2021, it had an $11 million deficit on $98 million in expenses. Its undergraduate FTE enrollment has decreased by almost 25% over the last decade. Minor trims around the edges of its curriculum are not going to make it financially viable for the long term.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 17, 2022, 02:40:28 AM
Cazenovia College defaulted on a bond. It's been in deficit FYs 2018-2020. Data on FY 2021 isn't published yet, but I don't expect anything different.

I predict Cazenovia closes within the next four years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 17, 2022, 08:42:31 AM
Quote from: spork on October 17, 2022, 02:40:28 AM
Cazenovia College defaulted on a bond. It's been in deficit FYs 2018-2020. Data on FY 2021 isn't published yet, but I don't expect anything different.

I predict Cazenovia closes within the next four years.

A school with under a thousand students that can't pay back $25 million dollars in debt?  I suspect you've just made a very safe prediction.

So many of these schools I've never heard of in my life, and I thought I'd heard of some pretty obscure ones.  A glance at their Wikipedia entry indicates that they've been around in one form or another for nearly two centuries.  Looks like they've stayed in business by periodically reinventing themselves.  Three years ago they tried establishing their first grad program.  They might have borrowed much of that money in hopes of being able to label themselves as "Cazenovia University."

I suppose if they close it will be no great loss for society as a whole.  But it's sad to see a nearly two-hundred-year-old institution reaching the end of the line like that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 17, 2022, 08:51:17 AM
Quote from: spork on October 12, 2022, 02:11:05 AM
As reporting in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune, Bethel University is eliminating nine niche academic programs because of low enrollment. In FY 2021, it had an $11 million deficit on $98 million in expenses. Its undergraduate FTE enrollment has decreased by almost 25% over the last decade. Minor trims around the edges of its curriculum are not going to make it financially viable for the long term.

Not a "super dinky" place like Cazenovia, but that declining enrollment and proportionately huge deficits does look alarming.  Looks like they're the only college affiliated with a Baptist denomination that I'm not familiar with.  Must be one of those denominations with serious long-term declining membership.  If they do eventually lose their college, it will be a real loss for that denomination.

Looks like those niche programs are mostly vocational/business in nature.  I guess they did what many SLACs have done in recent years and created a bunch of niche programs of this sort to stand out enough to continue attracting students.  Alma Mater has been doing something similar.  With more success so far.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 17, 2022, 09:00:14 AM
Quote from: apl68 on October 17, 2022, 08:42:31 AM
Quote from: spork on October 17, 2022, 02:40:28 AM
Cazenovia College defaulted on a bond. It's been in deficit FYs 2018-2020. Data on FY 2021 isn't published yet, but I don't expect anything different.

I predict Cazenovia closes within the next four years.

A school with under a thousand students that can't pay back $25 million dollars in debt?  I suspect you've just made a very safe prediction.

So many of these schools I've never heard of in my life, and I thought I'd heard of some pretty obscure ones.  A glance at their Wikipedia entry indicates that they've been around in one form or another for nearly two centuries.  Looks like they've stayed in business by periodically reinventing themselves.  Three years ago they tried establishing their first grad program.  They might have borrowed much of that money in hopes of being able to label themselves as "Cazenovia University."

I suppose if they close it will be no great loss for society as a whole.  But it's sad to see a nearly two-hundred-year-old institution reaching the end of the line like that.

That part of the country was ablaze with intellectual and religious fervor in the 19th century, so a lot of schools were founded. Not all have a reason to exist today when the fervor in the rural areas has died down. Cazenovia is in the middle of nowhere, with several public colleges and financially healthy SLACs nearby.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: glowdart on October 17, 2022, 12:30:17 PM
I am amazed that Cazenovia has lasted this long. A number of people in my cohort had phone interviews or campus visits with Cazenovia and other schools that seemed on the verge of collapse, including many others in this thread — and that was decades ago. 

The people in our discipline who landed those jobs sometimes fled quickly, but I always had a "but for the grace of ..." feeling that we all landed elsewhere.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 17, 2022, 01:07:28 PM
Quote from: glowdart on October 17, 2022, 12:30:17 PM
I am amazed that Cazenovia has lasted this long. A number of people in my cohort had phone interviews or campus visits with Cazenovia and other schools that seemed on the verge of collapse, including many others in this thread — and that was decades ago. 

The people in our discipline who landed those jobs sometimes fled quickly, but I always had a "but for the grace of ..." feeling that we all landed elsewhere.

Polly used to say of "Super Dinky" that it had flirted with closure for many years before it ran into a set of circumstances it just couldn't overcome.  There must be a number of little colleges in that boat.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on October 17, 2022, 05:53:52 PM
I miss Polly. I miss Super Dinky, too. My own (former) Super Dinky has recently added a faddish bonanza sport, and had their largest first-year class in quite awhile. Is that the same as operating with a surplus?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 17, 2022, 06:45:54 PM
Polly was a pip.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on October 17, 2022, 08:03:24 PM
Some of the inconsistencies in the off-and-on story/example about Super Dinky college, especially the timeline of Super Dinky's decline, made me wonder how much of Polly's stories were based on a real Super Dinky, and how much of the story was embellished.

Nonetheless, the story was very believable, very consistent with mine and others' experiences in similar places, and very valuable. I'm sure much of Polly's recounting of the story was half helpful cautionary tale and half self-therapy, for a career unfulfilled.

Because of Polly, I can explain why the sLACs near my university closed down, and I can somewhat predict who might be next to circle the drain (and whose students and desirable staff and faculty we can poach).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: cascade on October 18, 2022, 04:20:49 AM
Quote from: spork on October 17, 2022, 02:40:28 AM
Cazenovia College defaulted on a bond. It's been in deficit FYs 2018-2020. Data on FY 2021 isn't published yet, but I don't expect anything different.

I predict Cazenovia closes within the next four years.

I'm sad to read this. Thanks for sharing the info.

I just read that in September the college dedicated a historic property worth $1.8 million that was donated from a local family. I wonder if the donors knew about the financial outlook.

Quote from: Hibush on October 17, 2022, 09:00:14 AM
Cazenovia is in the middle of nowhere, with several public colleges and financially healthy SLACs nearby.

It's only a 30 minute drive to downtown Syracuse from Cazenovia. (I know... some will say I just proved your point!) Just saying that it could be worse.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 18, 2022, 05:02:36 AM
Quote from: cascade on October 18, 2022, 04:20:49 AM
Quote from: spork on October 17, 2022, 02:40:28 AM
Cazenovia College defaulted on a bond. It's been in deficit FYs 2018-2020. Data on FY 2021 isn't published yet, but I don't expect anything different.

I predict Cazenovia closes within the next four years.

I'm sad to read this. Thanks for sharing the info.

I just read that in September the college dedicated a historic property worth $1.8 million that was donated from a local family. I wonder if the donors knew about the financial outlook.


I wonder if there were any clauses in the donation that would forbid the institution from selling the property. If so, the family could probably get it back in court. Clearly if the donation was that recent the institution knew they were taking it under false pretenses.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on October 18, 2022, 05:54:47 AM
Quote from: lightning on October 17, 2022, 08:03:24 PM
Some of the inconsistencies in the off-and-on story/example about Super Dinky college, especially the timeline of Super Dinky's decline, made me wonder how much of Polly's stories were based on a real Super Dinky, and how much of the story was embellished.

Nonetheless, the story was very believable, very consistent with mine and others' experiences in similar places, and very valuable. I'm sure much of Polly's recounting of the story was half helpful cautionary tale and half self-therapy, for a career unfulfilled.

Because of Polly, I can explain why the sLACs near my university closed down, and I can somewhat predict who might be next to circle the drain (and whose students and desirable staff and faculty we can poach).

As it turned out, a friend who had taken a job a Super-Dinky (and left ASAP) and I confirmed independently that Poly's tales were true.

I didn't always agree with other aspects of Poly's party line, but I also wouldn't say her career "failed," at all. My sense was, she found an excellent job in a position that used her scientific,  engineering,  and analytic strengths very well, and made a good life for herself in that setting.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 18, 2022, 07:40:41 AM
One reason I hate that the old Fora archives haven't been preserved is losing the Super Dinky saga.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 18, 2022, 09:24:35 AM
I think Polly is missed in the nostalgic way a tough parent or teacher is remembered long after when people realize the toughness was necessary, even if at the time it was unpleasant.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jonadam on October 18, 2022, 10:04:58 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 14, 2022, 05:21:33 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 14, 2022, 07:35:59 AM
Sigh.  One of these colleges in the "C" range has a job opening that I am planning on applying to.

Anybody have any insight into the accuracy of the Forbes review?  Probably like most people, I am familiar with a handful of these schools.  Some that I know of make sense for their grade, but one that I know about is on solid financial footing, at least as far as I know.

The Forbes ratings are rough, like any alt metric. In the C range we have a real mix.  Sarah Lawrence I suspect would be rescued by even more ardent alumnae than Sweet Briar shoud things get tough. Ithaca was nationally notable for streamlining the offerings and making 118 faculty redundant in the process. That may have fixed their near-term finances. RPI's fabulously overcompensated president has not been the rainmaker they pay for recently. Paul Smiths rejected becoming a wealthy woman's poodle, but that may have dire financial consequences since it is a tiny and remote school. St John Fisher got some bad press when they withdrew a faculty offer because the candidate asked for a bit more salary--which is not something a fiscally sound school would do.

These observations are mostly from morbid fascination with reading news reports of schools messing up.

1. I *think* that Saint Peter's University is the one in New Jersey that had some national fame during March Madness last year.

2. Rider University being so low isn't surprising. We've learned a lot in how it dealt with Westminster Choir College and none of it is good... expect the end of Rider in 5 years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 18, 2022, 11:01:14 AM
Forbes rankings are shit. Look at IRS Form 990 filings and IPEDS enrollment data. Basic rule of thumb: do not work at any private institution of less than 1,000 FTE undergrads unless it has a billion dollar endowment. In ten years, if that, it will be "less than 1,500 FTE undergrads. . . "

All of the Super Dinky tale was true. Polly had the good sense to leave when it become obvious that no one was willing or able to save it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 18, 2022, 11:14:43 AM
Quote from: spork on October 18, 2022, 11:01:14 AM
Forbes rankings are shit. Look at IRS Form 990 filings and IPEDS enrollment data. Basic rule of thumb: do not work at any private institution of less than 1,000 FTE undergrads unless it has a billion dollar endowment. In ten years, if that, it will be "less than 1,500 FTE undergrads. . . "

What is your analysis of Deep Springs? That is the dinkiest of the dinky.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 18, 2022, 04:04:20 PM
Cazenovia is going to close a lot sooner than I thought.

Deep Springs is in the black only when contributions are enough to cover expenses. It does not generate net revenue from operations. Deficits in FYs 2015 to 2020 except for 2019, when it got donations of nearly $8 million.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on October 18, 2022, 04:44:02 PM
Quote from: spork on October 18, 2022, 11:01:14 AM
Forbes rankings are shit. Look at IRS Form 990 filings and IPEDS enrollment data. Basic rule of thumb: do not work at any private institution of less than 1,000 FTE undergrads unless it has a billion dollar endowment. In ten years, if that, it will be "less than 1,500 FTE undergrads. . . "

All of the Super Dinky tale was true. Polly had the good sense to leave when it become obvious that no one was willing or able to save it.

What about using endowment by student as a measure?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 18, 2022, 04:48:58 PM
Quote from: lightning on October 17, 2022, 08:03:24 PM
Some of the inconsistencies in the off-and-on story/example about Super Dinky college, especially the timeline of Super Dinky's decline, made me wonder how much of Polly's stories were based on a real Super Dinky, and how much of the story was embellished.

Nonetheless, the story was very believable, very consistent with mine and others' experiences in similar places, and very valuable. I'm sure much of Polly's recounting of the story was half helpful cautionary tale and half self-therapy, for a career unfulfilled.

Because of Polly, I can explain why the sLACs near my university closed down, and I can somewhat predict who might be next to circle the drain (and whose students and desirable staff and faculty we can poach).

My disagreements with Polly were fierce but strictly philosophical. We would still disagree.   But I learned a hellah lot.

Polly, if you are still reading, it might be time for you to resurface.

Consider that we might all be like an elderly married couple who can argue but still be in love.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on October 18, 2022, 06:42:04 PM
Bay State College in Massachusetts is in a world of hurt. I taught there 20 years ago. My first teaching gig with my Masters degree. It convinced me that I should teach if I could enjoy teaching a stats class at night after a long day of work to students who also were coming from a long day of work. I didn't realize they were a for profit institution back then and now. Regardless, the article doesn't paint a good picture. 

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/10/18/two-colleges-flounder-under-opaque-profit-owners
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on October 18, 2022, 06:49:16 PM
Quote from: spork on October 18, 2022, 11:01:14 AM
Forbes rankings are shit. Look at IRS Form 990 filings and IPEDS enrollment data. Basic rule of thumb: do not work at any private institution of less than 1,000 FTE undergrads unless it has a billion dollar endowment. In ten years, if that, it will be "less than 1,500 FTE undergrads. . . "

All of the Super Dinky tale was true. Polly had the good sense to leave when it become obvious that no one was willing or able to save it.

Spork, you and others have made this board invaluable. Thank you again for the lens you help shine for folks who need to know what to look for.

Last night I was pulling IPEDS numbers and using the College Stress Test book to evaluate my institution (not that I really needed to see the numbers to know where we are headed). I'm also evaluating schools with job openings.

Does anyone have insight on the financial health of the University of Rhode Island or opinions about the school in general?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 18, 2022, 06:51:05 PM
Quote from: spork on October 18, 2022, 04:04:20 PM
Cazenovia is going to close a lot sooner than I thought.

Deep Springs is in the black only when contributions are enough to cover expenses. It does not generate net revenue from operations. Deficits in FYs 2015 to 2020 except for 2019, when it got donations of nearly $8 million.

Thanks for looking into that. With no tuition, how much does revenue from operations drive their finance? $8 million should last them a while since it is a lot on a per-student basis.

@Cascade re Cazenovia: One of the features of Syracuse is that you can indeed be nowhere by driving half an hour in almost any direction (even on the Interstates). New York and Pennsylvania have an amazing amount of it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: rth253 on October 18, 2022, 11:34:44 PM
Quote from: apl68 on October 17, 2022, 08:51:17 AM
Quote from: spork on October 12, 2022, 02:11:05 AM
As reporting in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune, Bethel University is eliminating nine niche academic programs because of low enrollment. In FY 2021, it had an $11 million deficit on $98 million in expenses. Its undergraduate FTE enrollment has decreased by almost 25% over the last decade. Minor trims around the edges of its curriculum are not going to make it financially viable for the long term.

Not a "super dinky" place like Cazenovia, but that declining enrollment and proportionately huge deficits does look alarming.  Looks like they're the only college affiliated with a Baptist denomination that I'm not familiar with.  Must be one of those denominations with serious long-term declining membership.  If they do eventually lose their college, it will be a real loss for that denomination.

Looks like those niche programs are mostly vocational/business in nature.  I guess they did what many SLACs have done in recent years and created a bunch of niche programs of this sort to stand out enough to continue attracting students.  Alma Mater has been doing something similar.  With more success so far.

I have some colleagues at Bethel. I suspect one of the issues is that the denomination and thus the college are incredibly homophobic, and they make all faculty and students sign a statement that they believe, among other things, that anyone not heterosexual will burn in hell and that they won't support them in any way that's affirming. This causes tension between the student body, which increasingly is not cool with that stance, and alumni/big donors who threaten to stop supporting the school if it becomes at all affirming of LGBTQ+ people.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 19, 2022, 05:07:17 AM
Quote from: rth253 on October 18, 2022, 11:34:44 PM
I have some colleagues at Bethel. I suspect one of the issues is that the denomination and thus the college are incredibly homophobic, and they make all faculty and students sign a statement that they believe, among other things, that anyone not heterosexual will burn in hell and that they won't support them in any way that's affirming. This causes tension between the student body, which increasingly is not cool with that stance, and alumni/big donors who threaten to stop supporting the school if it becomes at all affirming of LGBTQ+ people.

That mismatch of interests is an important driver of low enrolment! That can be especiallly prevalent at a small place with an insular board.

How much does the mismatch of interests contribute to enrolment challenges at small religious schools compared to the other factors of lower overall demand for religious higher education, and the general pull of megauniversities making those seeking a religous education chose big places like Liberty (~50k resident + 115K remote) and BYU (~50k)?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 19, 2022, 05:22:53 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on October 18, 2022, 04:44:02 PM
Quote from: spork on October 18, 2022, 11:01:14 AM
Forbes rankings are shit. Look at IRS Form 990 filings and IPEDS enrollment data. Basic rule of thumb: do not work at any private institution of less than 1,000 FTE undergrads unless it has a billion dollar endowment. In ten years, if that, it will be "less than 1,500 FTE undergrads. . . "

All of the Super Dinky tale was true. Polly had the good sense to leave when it become obvious that no one was willing or able to save it.

What about using endowment by student as a measure?

It's helpful but only in combination with other criteria. The typical reasonable annual endowment draw is 4%. On a $100 million dollar endowment and an enrollment of 1,000 students, that's only $4,000 per student. If enrollment falls, per student amount increases, but not by enough.

Really the only tiny schools with endowments large enough to survive a major enrollment hit are places like Williams. And they have such strong brands that they aren't going to have enrollment problems.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 19, 2022, 05:31:49 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 18, 2022, 04:48:58 PM
Quote from: lightning on October 17, 2022, 08:03:24 PM
Some of the inconsistencies in the off-and-on story/example about Super Dinky college, especially the timeline of Super Dinky's decline, made me wonder how much of Polly's stories were based on a real Super Dinky, and how much of the story was embellished.

Nonetheless, the story was very believable, very consistent with mine and others' experiences in similar places, and very valuable. I'm sure much of Polly's recounting of the story was half helpful cautionary tale and half self-therapy, for a career unfulfilled.

Because of Polly, I can explain why the sLACs near my university closed down, and I can somewhat predict who might be next to circle the drain (and whose students and desirable staff and faculty we can poach).

My disagreements with Polly were fierce but strictly philosophical. We would still disagree.   But I learned a hellah lot.

Polly, if you are still reading, it might be time for you to resurface.

Consider that we might all be like an elderly married couple who can argue but still be in love.

I'm guessing Polly probably doesn't lurk, or at least not very frequently. She strikes me as someone who makes a decision and doesn't look back, (which is part of why so many people used to get upset with her; that ability to not just wait around hoping things would change), which is part of what I liked about her.

Her arguments tended to be very well-researched. I have no idea how she had the time to look up all of the references she gave in her detailed posts.

If she came back, after a possible "honeymoon period" where people would say they'd missed her, I'd guess within a few months that same people would be reacting the same way as before, and no-one would be saying "I don't agree, but I'm glad to hear your perspective" or anything of the sort. Having one's beliefs challenged is like eating one's vegetables; something a lot of people say they appreciate because it's good for them (in principle), but who avoid it in practice because it's unpleasant.

To some on here, the ideal forum would be where everyone was all rainbows and unicorns about academia, (except maybe about how evil governments and administrators are trying to destroy it).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 19, 2022, 06:30:17 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on October 18, 2022, 06:49:16 PM
Quote from: spork on October 18, 2022, 11:01:14 AM
Forbes rankings are shit. Look at IRS Form 990 filings and IPEDS enrollment data. Basic rule of thumb: do not work at any private institution of less than 1,000 FTE undergrads unless it has a billion dollar endowment. In ten years, if that, it will be "less than 1,500 FTE undergrads. . . "

All of the Super Dinky tale was true. Polly had the good sense to leave when it become obvious that no one was willing or able to save it.

Spork, you and others have made this board invaluable. Thank you again for the lens you help shine for folks who need to know what to look for.

Last night I was pulling IPEDS numbers and using the College Stress Test book to evaluate my institution (not that I really needed to see the numbers to know where we are headed). I'm also evaluating schools with job openings.

Does anyone have insight on the financial health of the University of Rhode Island or opinions about the school in general?

Any state flagship campus is safe, in terms of "not facing closure." Working conditions might be comparatively good or bad depending on the state system's finances, but it's unlikely that entire departments will be wiped out because financial exigency has been declared.

Another good tool is collegescorecard.ed.gov. Schools with low retention and graduation rates, low alumni earnings, etc. in comparison to similarly-sized institutions do not have a bright future.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 19, 2022, 07:42:19 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 19, 2022, 05:31:49 AM
why so many people used to get upset with her; that ability to not just wait around hoping things would change), which is part of what I liked about her.


To some on here, the ideal forum would be where everyone was all rainbows and unicorns about academia, (except maybe about how evil governments and administrators are trying to destroy it).

Polly was extremely rude, condescending, and combative.  That is what people did not like about her.  I enjoyed the combat more than I should have.  But everyone, myself included, valued her insights.  The misplaced idea that anyone saw "rainbows and unicorns" is simply self-congratulatory puffery. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on October 19, 2022, 11:25:23 AM
Quote from: Hibush on October 19, 2022, 05:07:17 AM
Quote from: rth253 on October 18, 2022, 11:34:44 PM
I have some colleagues at Bethel. I suspect one of the issues is that the denomination and thus the college are incredibly homophobic, and they make all faculty and students sign a statement that they believe, among other things, that anyone not heterosexual will burn in hell and that they won't support them in any way that's affirming. This causes tension between the student body, which increasingly is not cool with that stance, and alumni/big donors who threaten to stop supporting the school if it becomes at all affirming of LGBTQ+ people.

That mismatch of interests is an important driver of low enrolment! That can be especiallly prevalent at a small place with an insular board.

How much does the mismatch of interests contribute to enrolment challenges at small religious schools compared to the other factors of lower overall demand for religious higher education, and the general pull of megauniversities making those seeking a religous education chose big places like Liberty (~50k resident + 115K remote) and BYU (~50k)?

BYU offers pretty much anything, so it's easy for some LDS kid with good grades and active in their faith to want to go (plus tuition is more affordable than almost any other four-year option). BYU-Idaho struggles academically in that its program offerings aren't as robust. There is still room for BYu-Idaho to grow while BYU in Provo is essentially at full capacity.

I see most religious schools struggle to provide a good student experience compared to a flagship. Same with regional publics that cut programs. Poor infrastructure, employees who aren't motivated to be there, and students who go there because they have few options due to poor academic performance.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sonoamused on October 19, 2022, 11:28:57 AM
Quote from: spork on October 17, 2022, 02:40:28 AM
Cazenovia College defaulted on a bond. It's been in deficit FYs 2018-2020. Data on FY 2021 isn't published yet, but I don't expect anything different.

I predict Cazenovia closes within the next four years.

Cazenovia is not going to last that long; faculty and staff have been told its uncertain what the status will be next academic year and its not recruiting new students currently.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on October 19, 2022, 09:46:58 PM
Quote from: mamselle on October 18, 2022, 05:54:47 AM
Quote from: lightning on October 17, 2022, 08:03:24 PM
Some of the inconsistencies in the off-and-on story/example about Super Dinky college, especially the timeline of Super Dinky's decline, made me wonder how much of Polly's stories were based on a real Super Dinky, and how much of the story was embellished.

Nonetheless, the story was very believable, very consistent with mine and others' experiences in similar places, and very valuable. I'm sure much of Polly's recounting of the story was half helpful cautionary tale and half self-therapy, for a career unfulfilled.

Because of Polly, I can explain why the sLACs near my university closed down, and I can somewhat predict who might be next to circle the drain (and whose students and desirable staff and faculty we can poach).

As it turned out, a friend who had taken a job a Super-Dinky (and left ASAP) and I confirmed independently that Poly's tales were true.

I didn't always agree with other aspects of Poly's party line, but I also wouldn't say her career "failed," at all. My sense was, she found an excellent job in a position that used her scientific,  engineering,  and analytic strengths very well, and made a good life for herself in that setting.

M.

I never once said poly_mer "failed" nor did I ever intend to imply that. Poly_mer did well, no matter the professional situation, and I congratulated her for her accomplishments in and out of academe. The sense that I got was that Poly_mer was never able to convince herself that leaving academe was the right thing to do. So, she lingered here in the fora, in part to express to all of us (really herself) everything that was wrong with academe (with Super Dinky as a case study), in order to convince herself that she made the right decision to leave academe and that her current professional situation is indeed the better situation. Her missionary work in the fora ended when she finally made peace with her decision.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on October 19, 2022, 11:07:48 PM
Has anyone heard from polly recently?  Is she even still subbed to the fora?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 20, 2022, 08:14:35 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 19, 2022, 11:07:48 PM
Has anyone heard from polly recently?  Is she even still subbed to the fora?

I actually just sent her a PM over on Reddit.  She was active there for a bit and we talked a couple of times, but she has gone to ground for about four months.  I was going to tell her that peeps over here missed her presence. 

For more good news:

Despite Hopes for a Rebound, Enrollment Falls Again (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/10/20/enrollment-declines-continue-slower-rate)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 20, 2022, 08:55:29 AM
Quote from: sonoamused on October 19, 2022, 11:28:57 AM
Quote from: spork on October 17, 2022, 02:40:28 AM
Cazenovia College defaulted on a bond. It's been in deficit FYs 2018-2020. Data on FY 2021 isn't published yet, but I don't expect anything different.

I predict Cazenovia closes within the next four years.

Cazenovia is not going to last that long; faculty and staff have been told its uncertain what the status will be next academic year and its not recruiting new students currently.

Thanks for the inside info!

The article (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2022/10/central-ny-college-defaults-on-25m-bond-payment-future-uncertain.html) recounts the twists and turns in Cazenovia's history. I think it is instructive to see the radical changes it has experienced. The idea that it has been plugging along as a successful small college for 200 years and suddenly feels pain no is completely in error.

Quotein 1824,  it was founded as the Seminary of the Genesee Conference in what had been the Madison County Courthouse. It initially welcomed both men and women students. Although sponsored by the Methodists, the seminary was nonsectarian, and its trustees were a mix of clergy and laypeople.

Between 1904 and 1931, it functioned as a secondary school for local young people, an arrangement that ended when Cazenovia Central High School was built.

The Methodists withdrew church support for the institution when, faced with steadily declining enrollment, trustees turned it into a junior college [in 1942].

The college dropped "Junior" from its name in 1961 and became Cazenovia College for Women.

In 1982, trustees voted to return to coeducation, accepting men into its student ranks again starting in 1983 and shortening the institution's name to Cazenovia College.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 20, 2022, 08:58:33 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 20, 2022, 08:14:35 AM
For more good news:

Despite Hopes for a Rebound, Enrollment Falls Again (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/10/20/enrollment-declines-continue-slower-rate)

While students are back on campus, the labor market is still really strong. Most of those on the fence about school vs work are choosing work. The Fed's efforts to slow inflation should be changing that situation (and many expected it to have happened by now).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 20, 2022, 10:29:54 AM
Quote from: Hibush on October 20, 2022, 08:58:33 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 20, 2022, 08:14:35 AM
For more good news:

Despite Hopes for a Rebound, Enrollment Falls Again (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/10/20/enrollment-declines-continue-slower-rate)

While students are back on campus, the labor market is still really strong. Most of those on the fence about school vs work are choosing work. The Fed's efforts to slow inflation should be changing that situation (and many expected it to have happened by now).

That's good to hear. If the only people who go to school are those who have actually figured out that's what they really want to do, (and why), that's going to get rid of an awful lot of the un- (or under-) -motivated students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on October 20, 2022, 12:11:15 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 19, 2022, 11:07:48 PM
Has anyone heard from polly recently?  Is she even still subbed to the fora?

I'm actually hoping that Poly does not come back, because it means that she's finally at peace.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 20, 2022, 12:24:44 PM
Quote from: sonoamused on October 19, 2022, 11:28:57 AM
Quote from: spork on October 17, 2022, 02:40:28 AM
Cazenovia College defaulted on a bond. It's been in deficit FYs 2018-2020. Data on FY 2021 isn't published yet, but I don't expect anything different.

I predict Cazenovia closes within the next four years.

Cazenovia is not going to last that long; faculty and staff have been told its uncertain what the status will be next academic year and its not recruiting new students currently.

Sounds like they've as good as given up, then.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on October 20, 2022, 03:22:55 PM
Quote from: lightning on October 20, 2022, 12:11:15 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 19, 2022, 11:07:48 PM
Has anyone heard from polly recently?  Is she even still subbed to the fora?

I'm actually hoping that Poly does not come back, because it means that she's finally at peace.

From the member list:  Last Active:August 29, 2021, 09:13:03 AM

Pardon my being a bit of a d!ck here, but she hurt herself falling off her high horse.  She is one of those people who believes data wins every single argument.  If that were the case, humans would not need emotions, we'd just look at the numbers.  Typical engineer - goddam humans buggering up all the neat systems they design.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on October 20, 2022, 03:51:25 PM
I met Poly in one of our meet-ups, and others have, in the past, as well.

As I said, I didn't agree with some of her posts (and maybe along the lines you cite, in some cases), but with all she was dealing with in other arenas, that might be a bit one-dimensional as a critique. (Anyone remember the MIL-from-(well, let's say, 'outer-space'? The worries with Blocky as an infant?)

In person, I found our conversation fun and informative, and enjoyed the evening.

We're all a mixed bag, I'd say...

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on October 20, 2022, 03:56:39 PM
Quote... people who believe data wins every single argument.  If that were the case, humans would not need emotions, we'd just look at the numbers.

If one starts with data, and relies on inference to make sense of the data, it's best to be extremely skeptical. "The sea of data is mute."

If one starts with theory -- conjectures -- one has to compare to data to test if the guesses are correct.

Our emotions can be efficient or inefficient. They evolved a long, long time ago in an environment very different from ours. What our feelings told us to do 40, 000 years ago may well be the wrong thing to do today. Our emotions, too, must be, and are, tested against the data, whether we like it or not. Best to know it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on October 20, 2022, 05:18:08 PM
Plenty of college-aged adults not going to school and not really working, either.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on October 20, 2022, 09:36:08 PM
Now I see why Polly left.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 21, 2022, 04:55:39 AM
Quote from: dismalist on October 20, 2022, 03:56:39 PM
Quote... people who believe data wins every single argument.  If that were the case, humans would not need emotions, we'd just look at the numbers.

If one starts with data, and relies on inference to make sense of the data, it's best to be extremely skeptical. "The sea of data is mute."

If one starts with theory -- conjectures -- one has to compare to data to test if the guesses are correct.

Our emotions can be efficient or inefficient. They evolved a long, long time ago in an environment very different from ours. What our feelings told us to do 40, 000 years ago may well be the wrong thing to do today. Our emotions, too, must be, and are, tested against the data, whether we like it or not. Best to know it.

Absolutely. Arguments from emotion, in total disregard for data, is a recipe for disaster.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on October 21, 2022, 07:53:22 AM
Honestly, sometimes people use "where's the data?" as a verbal tick, and not a real critique.
That is to say, they know the data does not exist, so they use "where's the data?" as a way to block progress on something they don't particularly like. That being said, if the data does exist, its probably worth collecting, even if  there might be flaws in the data set for whatever reason (that can be discussed). That being said, I am not in favor of just making up stuff, but sometimes you just have to make choices in absence of data.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 21, 2022, 07:57:15 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on October 21, 2022, 07:53:22 AM
Honestly, sometimes people use "where's the data?" as a verbal tick, and not a real critique.
That is to say, they know the data does not exist, so they use "where's the data?" as a way to block progress on something they don't particularly like. That being said, if the data does exist, its probably worth collecting, even if  there might be flaws in the data set for whatever reason (that can be discussed). That being said, I am not in favor of just making up stuff, but sometimes you just have to make choices in absence of data.

Sure, but if you're being intellectually honest then you have to be willing to propose relatively objective criteria by which the success of your choice can be evaluated after the fact. (In other words, if the data don't exist yet, you want to pay attention to them as they become available.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 21, 2022, 08:56:18 AM
Quote from: selecter on October 20, 2022, 09:36:08 PM
Now I see why Polly left.

Polly left because the mods told her she needed to tone it down, and she was mortally offended. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on October 21, 2022, 10:50:45 AM
Frankly, I never really thought it got that bad. There was a political thread during which I got very incensed with some some pro Trump statement or another. I forget the details, but besides that one time, she more or less took a very predictable point of view and stuck with it. I don't think she suffered fools (in her opinion) gladly, but I don't recall outright insults or anything like that, but maybe I perceived it that way because I more or less agreed with her besides on the political matters.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 21, 2022, 10:56:49 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on October 21, 2022, 10:50:45 AM
Frankly, I never really thought it got that bad. There was a political thread during which I got very incensed with some some pro Trump statement or another. I forget the details, but besides that one time, she more or less took a very predictable point of view and stuck with it. I don't think she suffered fools (in her opinion) gladly, but I don't recall outright insults or anything like that, but maybe I perceived it that way because I more or less agreed with her besides on the political matters.

I think you're getting at the point that how "combative" or "obnoxious" someone is judged to be often highly correlates with the degree to which their opinions clash with their audience. (If you're preaching to the choir, rant on!!!)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on October 21, 2022, 11:54:22 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 21, 2022, 10:56:49 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on October 21, 2022, 10:50:45 AM
Frankly, I never really thought it got that bad. There was a political thread during which I got very incensed with some some pro Trump statement or another. I forget the details, but besides that one time, she more or less took a very predictable point of view and stuck with it. I don't think she suffered fools (in her opinion) gladly, but I don't recall outright insults or anything like that, but maybe I perceived it that way because I more or less agreed with her besides on the political matters.

I think you're getting at the point that how "combative" or "obnoxious" someone is judged to be often highly correlates with the degree to which their opinions clash with their audience. (If you're preaching to the choir, rant on!!!)

I read most posts, though I didn't respond to many. Don't recall anything outright obnoxious, either. Indeed, spirited debate is something I got used to professionally early on. Often enlightening under a thick skin.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 21, 2022, 12:59:54 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on October 21, 2022, 10:50:45 AM
Frankly, I never really thought it got that bad. There was a political thread during which I got very incensed with some some pro Trump statement or another. I forget the details, but besides that one time, she more or less took a very predictable point of view and stuck with it. I don't think she suffered fools (in her opinion) gladly, but I don't recall outright insults or anything like that, but maybe I perceived it that way because I more or less agreed with her besides on the political matters.

Nah, Polly was pretty aggressive and she had definite bite.  I never could get too angry about these things because, for pete's sake, this is an Internet forum, and I frankly enjoyed the debates.  Some peeps, however, took umbrage. 

I just learned a lot from her and I thought Polly was funny.  She was one of my favorite posters.  I imagined the sound of her voice and I could see her.  She was brilliant too.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 21, 2022, 01:15:12 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 21, 2022, 12:59:54 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on October 21, 2022, 10:50:45 AM
Frankly, I never really thought it got that bad. There was a political thread during which I got very incensed with some some pro Trump statement or another. I forget the details, but besides that one time, she more or less took a very predictable point of view and stuck with it. I don't think she suffered fools (in her opinion) gladly, but I don't recall outright insults or anything like that, but maybe I perceived it that way because I more or less agreed with her besides on the political matters.

Nah, Polly was pretty aggressive and she had definite bite.  I never could get too angry about these things because, for pete's sake, this is an Internet forum, and I frankly enjoyed the debates.  Some peeps, however, took umbrage. 

I just learned a lot from her and I thought Polly was funny.  She was one of my favorite posters.  I imagined the sound of her voice and I could see her.  She was brilliant too.

That's a pretty fair summing-up of Polly.

BTW, we have now reached page 200 of talking about colleges in dire financial straits.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on October 21, 2022, 04:47:30 PM
QuoteBTW, we have now reached page 200 of talking about colleges in dire financial straits.

I see no reason for the reports to stop.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on October 21, 2022, 06:39:38 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 21, 2022, 08:56:18 AM
Quote from: selecter on October 20, 2022, 09:36:08 PM
Now I see why Polly left.

Polly left because the mods told her she needed to tone it down, and she was mortally offended.

I never minded Polly - she was a good source of information when needed. If I didn't feel like reading her wall of text I didn't have to.

I recall her being a real twit about something. Still, I came to these boards and stick with them because people keep it real.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 21, 2022, 07:14:58 PM
Quote from: dismalist on October 21, 2022, 04:47:30 PM
QuoteBTW, we have now reached page 200 of talking about colleges in dire financial straits.

I see no reason for the reports to stop.

Yeah, this is one of the most depressing things in my life right now (the dire straits of colleges, not this thread----the thread just details the horror, the horror).

I had aspirations and was working towards them.  I'd finally found a career and a culture that more or less fit my weird personality...kind'a.

And then...

Well, we know what happened.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on October 21, 2022, 09:17:26 PM
Certainly the woman was enormously full of herself, and had an engineer's contempt or disregard for humanities (not that all engineers have it).  She also did not necessarily react with a scientific regard for what properly to do when confronted with disconfirming evidence, but she did not do anything to deserve rebuke, let alone defenestration.   Also, IIRC, was she not also a moderator here (certainly she was the mod who welcomed me to the new fora in 2019)?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on October 22, 2022, 10:47:49 AM
Like all organizations with decent rules, even if you started off with a leading role, if you are perceived to have broken the rules, you can be rebuked, or even actually punished.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on October 22, 2022, 11:26:09 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 21, 2022, 07:14:58 PM
Quote from: dismalist on October 21, 2022, 04:47:30 PM
QuoteBTW, we have now reached page 200 of talking about colleges in dire financial straits.

I see no reason for the reports to stop.

Yeah, this is one of the most depressing things in my life right now (the dire straits of colleges, not this thread----the thread just details the horror, the horror).

I had aspirations and was working towards them.  I'd finally found a career and a culture that more or less fit my weird personality...kind'a.

And then...

Well, we know what happened.

I would say, though, not simply to ameliorate but to offer a fuller view (because things have blocked my path to what I could see as the best for myself, as well):

1) At least, I know what it was I was aiming for, what it could have looked like: I had figured out the shape of the container my dreams might have grown in, and could see how planting and watering them could have gone well. I had (and stubbornly, still have) a sense of hope, once that realization hit, and a sense of how to work towards that hope, and a sense of guidelines and standards by which to plan and do my best work: I knew what challenges I might face, and how I might face them.

The fact that so many of the schools on this thread were theological/religious studies schools gives proof positive to me that, had my dreams clarified, say, 20 years earlier, I might have found that little niche to teach/research/perform in, but just having a clear sense of what I wanted/what was wanted of me was pure gift.

2. I saw other friends turned down for ordination, suffering through torturous marriages, or simply fumbling through life partnerless and angry, who let themselves become bitter, corroded, and corrosive in their interactions with others. I saw how miserable they made themselves, and others, dripping acidic remarks and harboring entitled grudges. I saw others who swiftly said, "OK, way closed there, way will open elsewhere," and got on with the second journal on their list, or the next school position, or the new diocese whose bishop invited them to consider ordination there--and who moved on and made of necessity not just a virtue, but a joy.

I resolved to be more like that second group, to make whatever was possible a new occasion for growth and improved performance,  and to do more of whatever I could do in the circumstances in which I found myself. I feel as if I've done good work wherever possible, shared it whenever possible, traveled miles for research, devoured thousands of excellent meals amidst good, reliable colleagues and friends, and contributed to my field and my students in the process.

3. As things closed in on COVID, I found myself in a new, even more limited sphere, but I've found I was ready for a change. Wasn't looking for it, didn't expect it, but it feels right now, and hopefully lets me finish up all the presentations and papers I would say I was called to share all along, anyway. Friends to my work made it possible for me to get on with that work, I have little mini-accountability arrangements here, there, and elsewhere to keep me at it, and my basic hope now is to move somewhere smaller, finish all those papers and see them into publication, and enjoy the process along the way.

I'm grateful for what I've been allowed to do in this life--several aspects have gone far beyond what I might ever have expected--and while I still might wish those other dreams could have been realized, they were the stars that have guided me along the path that was possible.

Non, je ne regrette rien...

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on October 24, 2022, 01:37:00 PM
Could Super Dinky have been saved if we got rid of the "pesky" major/GE/free elective model?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 25, 2022, 06:30:04 AM
Quote from: Mobius on October 24, 2022, 01:37:00 PM
Could Super Dinky have been saved if we got rid of the "pesky" major/GE/free elective model?

It seems to me extremely small institutions in remote areas with declining student-age populations are pretty much facing a brick wall regardless. Some years back, the local board of education pointed out how high schools of under 1000 students weren't great because they couldn't offer the breadth of options that bigger places could. And PSE should have many more options than high school. So unless a place has some really niche programs that attract from well beyond the local geographical area, it's hard to see anything but inevitable declining enrollment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on October 25, 2022, 09:21:33 AM
Quote from: Mobius on October 24, 2022, 01:37:00 PM
Could Super Dinky have been saved if we got rid of the "pesky" major/GE/free elective model?

Can anybody tell tales out of school and actually inform us to the identity of Super Dinky?  Is it still operating, or has it gone to the great faculty lounge in the sky?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on October 25, 2022, 09:54:25 AM
Since outing the school would out a forum member, that's a non-starter.

But it's gone.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 25, 2022, 01:06:26 PM
Quote from: mamselle on October 25, 2022, 09:54:25 AM
Since outing the school would out a forum member, that's a non-starter.

But it's gone.

M.

While SuperDinky was a real school, the experiences there were appropriately generalized to the many schools in it's position. The observations should have been useful to any who found themselves at a similar place with similar dynamics.

The place was doomed for a number of reasons. Demographics, student demand for the offering and cost efficiency all worked against it as they do for all similar schools. Even with perfect management, those things can doom a school. The schools that go out first are the ones that don't have good management, and SuperDinky offered some examples of how magical thinking and denial resulted in management decisions that were not helpful in the long (or even medium) time frame. Admin and the board at SuperDinky were not perfect, but not terrible. They just fell into some common traps or missed some important opportunities. This kind of thinking shows up all over, so it is good to be able to recognize it. Or to recognize the alternative--thoughtful policies.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on October 25, 2022, 03:52:38 PM
I look at my own institution. It's not dinky. I just don't know what can be done to attract students and then retain those least prepared. I can't make students do the work. A big part of success is being able to press on. I understand some my students have tremendous obstacles, while others just don't have any motivation. I ended up taking some time off and coming back to school several years later. I wouldn't advise my students to copy my choices.

If you're in an area with declining or stagnant population, you can only cut. If population growth ever happens, you'll always be behind the curve trying to catch up.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on October 25, 2022, 03:59:12 PM
In a nutshell: Families took ZPG seriously, and trimmed back on reproduction.

Others ignored a) That ZPG was being taken seriously,  and
    b) the ramifications that would have,

...and kept driving off the cliff.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on October 25, 2022, 07:16:08 PM
Super Dinky was also intellectually feeding on itself. It accepted students that could pay tuition, but were mostly un-prepared and un-movitvated. The only way to retain students like those were to lower standards. This drains institutional resources because remediation isn't cheap, and also remediation creates an expensive assessment bureaucracy (Poly's job for a while) that is necessary to provide evidence to accreditors that the idiots that the school accepted were actually learning something. The high-performing students are turned off by the idiots around them, so they leave (or don't come at all when they see that their future peers have really low standardized test scores), marring Super Dinky's reputation for future recruitment of the high-performing students that make a college look good and attract more of the same high-performing students who would go out and do great things after graduation. The students that get through only because of lower academic standards, go out into the world with a degree from Super Dinky and flop on the job & tarnish Super Dinky's reputation further--and those employers will then no longer want to hire Super Dinky grads. Then there are the few prepared and motivated students who got a sub-standard education because the school and faculty were too busy coddling the under-performers, so they didn't learn enough to have the skills to be employable. So, they make the school look bad, and probably trash their alma mater. And, then there are those graduates that don't even land a job. They are living in the region complaining to their peers about how much Super Dinky sucked because they couldn't get a job after graduation (even though it was the students who sucked), and so their peers are dissuaded from attending. And then of course there were the students that were so lame, they didn't graduate even with the lower standards--they will trash Super Dinky and lower the reputation. Further doom--none of the aforementioned groups will be significant contributing alumni. At the end of this vicious intellectual feeding cycle, is a degree that has no value & that no one wants and an institution whose reputation is so bad, no potential students want to be affiliated with it. Add this intellectual self-feeding cycle to the demographic problem and bloated non-academic units draining resources, and it makes me wonder why Super Dinky didn't go belly-up sooner. Oh, yeah, Poly liked to cut academic programs there were not STEM, so maybe that bought her a little time, while she was sewing her parachute.

The moral of the story about Super Dinky that no one seems to mention, which I warned Poly about: you can't lower standards, for student recruiting and student retention, as a pathway to long-term financial success.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on October 26, 2022, 01:00:35 AM
My president, at least publicly, states our retention issues boil down to cost and the tight labor market. While jobs are plentiful in my region, good jobs are not unless you teach K-12, nurse or equivalent, or something like HVAC work. Even auto repair doesn't pay well.

Most students receive a Pell Grant. There are decent institutional grants available compared to other state systems. The local CC/vocational school is also hurting for students, and those students receive even a better deal on tuition. Higher ed in any shape or form in our region is a tough sell. If you can't compete against college-aged young adults lured by fast food places only paying $10/hr, I don't know what else a school can do since we can give a loan-free education to many of our students, or close to it.



Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on October 26, 2022, 08:08:43 AM
Poly was not an advocate for lowering standards.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 26, 2022, 01:26:39 PM
Quote from: Mobius on October 26, 2022, 01:00:35 AM
My president, at least publicly, states our retention issues boil down to cost and the tight labor market. While jobs are plentiful in my region, good jobs are not unless you teach K-12, nurse or equivalent, or something like HVAC work. Even auto repair doesn't pay well.

Most students receive a Pell Grant. There are decent institutional grants available compared to other state systems. The local CC/vocational school is also hurting for students, and those students receive even a better deal on tuition. Higher ed in any shape or form in our region is a tough sell. If you can't compete against college-aged young adults lured by fast food places only paying $10/hr, I don't know what else a school can do since we can give a loan-free education to many of our students, or close to it.

This kind of market analysis is crucial. Who are the prospective students, based on the schools strengths, and what are their alternative choices? What makes the alternatives more attractive to these prospects?
It's not super difficult, but you are doing a better job than the president.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on October 26, 2022, 01:41:51 PM
Although I am not 100% sure that my school has turned a corner, we are better off in some ways, especially considering enrollment is a bit higher than it was, but still at a low point of the last 20 years. We have a significantly better endowment, and that has been aided with much better fundraising. In fact, getting better professionals in a few key offices was probably better for us than any faculty or programmatic changes (I know, heresy for a faculty member to say). Those offices were: Development, Registrar, Dean of Students, Career Services, HR, and Computing. All had so-so people for many years. Once they were replaced, this place functioned. This was actually much at the assistance of our latest President, and I think other than just the sum total of the money he's raised with the development office, probably these hiring changes were most critical. if he could get enrollment up before he retires, then he'd probably be remembered as one of our best presidents.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 26, 2022, 02:27:47 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on October 26, 2022, 01:41:51 PM
Although I am not 100% sure that my school has turned a corner, we are better off in some ways, especially considering enrollment is a bit higher than it was, but still at a low point of the last 20 years. We have a significantly better endowment, and that has been aided with much better fundraising. In fact, getting better professionals in a few key offices was probably better for us than any faculty or programmatic changes (I know, heresy for a faculty member to say). Those offices were: Development, Registrar, Dean of Students, Career Services, HR, and Computing. All had so-so people for many years. Once they were replaced, this place functioned. This was actually much at the assistance of our latest President, and I think other than just the sum total of the money he's raised with the development office, probably these hiring changes were most critical. if he could get enrollment up before he retires, then he'd probably be remembered as one of our best presidents.

Good that you're seeing positive signs.  Better-quality key staff can make a lot of difference for an institution, that's for sure.  Here's hoping that your improving trend continues.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 26, 2022, 02:29:39 PM
Quote from: Mobius on October 26, 2022, 01:00:35 AM
My president, at least publicly, states our retention issues boil down to cost and the tight labor market. While jobs are plentiful in my region, good jobs are not unless you teach K-12, nurse or equivalent, or something like HVAC work. Even auto repair doesn't pay well.

Most students receive a Pell Grant. There are decent institutional grants available compared to other state systems. The local CC/vocational school is also hurting for students, and those students receive even a better deal on tuition. Higher ed in any shape or form in our region is a tough sell. If you can't compete against college-aged young adults lured by fast food places only paying $10/hr, I don't know what else a school can do since we can give a loan-free education to many of our students, or close to it.

Are the local college-age students that unambitious, or are the local K-12 schools such that not trying to tackle college may be the most realistic strategy for many high school graduates?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on October 26, 2022, 09:45:40 PM
Could be either or both of these, but never forget or underestimate just how much contempt for higher education has permeated the white working class.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on October 27, 2022, 03:46:49 AM
Quote from: selecter on October 26, 2022, 08:08:43 AM
Poly was not an advocate for lowering standards.

Yes, Poly was not an advocate for lowering standards, but Super Dinky was.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 27, 2022, 05:29:39 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 26, 2022, 09:45:40 PM
Could be either or both of these, but never forget or underestimate just how much contempt for higher education has permeated the white working class.

It's partly a reflection of the contempt people in higher education have for the white working class.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on October 27, 2022, 07:56:11 AM
The mutual contempt, such as it exists (and I think it is exaggerated) , is due to mutual misunderstanding.
I think some people think all academics are studying Uzbeki Transgender Poetry or some equivalent of highly specialized thing that doesn't matter to them or worse. Maybe that's true to an extent. However, many people have specializations related to creating more efficient energy sources, or better vaccines, or away from STEM, implementing more modern methods of communication through the masses.  Even the folks with obscure specialization aren't usually teaching that many courses directly related to that specialization and are often not communicating personal interpretations into their teaching at all.

On the other hand, I think some academics are a bit snobby and look down on people who don't listen to NPR and don't really want to. They also probably have some skewed notions about blue collar work.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 27, 2022, 07:03:16 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 27, 2022, 05:29:39 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 26, 2022, 09:45:40 PM
Could be either or both of these, but never forget or underestimate just how much contempt for higher education has permeated the white working class.

It's partly a reflection of the contempt people in higher education have for the white working class.

OMG, Marshy.  Come off it.  Where do you get this propagandistic crap?  Can you substantiate this self-righteous plaint somehow? 

The working class is well represented in our colleges.
Most professors are from middle class backgrounds, many are from working class backgrounds.

Conservatives have been stoking class division and blaming "the elites" for [whatever] for generations by this point.  I'm surprised you've fallen for it.

How can you be so resentful about academia and work in academia?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on October 27, 2022, 07:27:04 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 27, 2022, 07:03:16 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 27, 2022, 05:29:39 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 26, 2022, 09:45:40 PM
Could be either or both of these, but never forget or underestimate just how much contempt for higher education has permeated the white working class.

It's partly a reflection of the contempt people in higher education have for the white working class.

OMG, Marshy.  Come off it.  Where do you get this propagandistic crap?  Can you substantiate this self-righteous plaint somehow? 

The working class is well represented in our colleges.
Most professors are from middle class backgrounds, many are from working class backgrounds.

Conservatives have been stoking class division and blaming "the elites" for [whatever] for generations by this point.  I'm surprised you've fallen for it.

How can you be so resentful about academia and work in academia?

I rarely engage in substantive discussion here since trying to have a reasoned argument online is something I find to be non-productive.

That said, Marsh has a point here.  A good friend whose opinion I value greatly is a good bit to the right of where I live politically.  He told me for years that he felt progressives were at least as biased against conservatives as much as progressive folk believed right wingers were biased against them.

And the more discussion I see from the left about the ubiquity of racism (a term that has become a catch all for all the ills in the world), the belief that working class conservatives "vote against their own interests",  and "if you can't find a job there, fer feck's sake just load up your pickup truck and move to where the jobs are" the more I believe that us Chardonnay drinking, Prius driving, NPR listening libs have some serious self examination to do.  Our hands are not nearly as clean as we'd like to think when it comes to tolerating our neighbors.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 27, 2022, 08:50:41 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on October 27, 2022, 07:27:04 PM
I believe that us Chardonnay drinking, Prius driving, NPR listening libs have some serious self examination to do.  Our hands are not nearly as clean as we'd like to think when it comes to tolerating our neighbors.

No argument here.

I am a registered independent voter and have been for 20+ years.  I am fiercely moderate politically.  I am from a blue collar town and am a product of state universities.

I am frustrated by a great many things the liberals do, many of which I have argued against on these boards.

But that is not what I was talking about above.  The conservative media has fostered the "entitled elites," us-vs-them, they're-not-better'n-us propaganda since I was a little kid.  Conservatives have milked this very teet until it has seeped into the DNA of any debate or statement about class; you just slipped in the tar pit above.

Meanwhile, our colleges reach out to first generation, veterans, rural and urban poor students in droves.  Marshy's comment is negated by this very fact. 

Sure, there is bias between political persuasions----we could also call that a difference of opinion.

However, one political faction stormed the Capitol, one political faction elected the worst president in American history, one political faction has convinced a great many people to vote against their own interests----all these statements are defensible without deflecting to the "liberals aren't as tolerant as they think they are" strawman.  The Republicans of this generation are not the Republicans of my father and mother's generation.  I need no self-examination to make that statement.

I was downsized this year.  This is probably my last semester teaching parttime in academia.  I am building a portfolio for writing and editing jobs and my wife is getting a certificate in a related field in case her job goes belly up.  We know about losing a career.  Coal is not coming back.  Timber is a finite resource.  We are fishing the oceans to the point of extinction.  Our factory jobs have moved to China.  Trump is not going to bring that back no matter what he promises.  I'm sorry, but sometimes you have to pack the pickup truck and move to where the jobs are.  That's life and has nothing to do with liberal self-examination.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on October 27, 2022, 11:34:22 PM
I do get that denizens of the faculty lounge in Berkeley do have a tendency to look down on those in flyover country, and that the flyover folks do not like this.   I also know that those flyover folks really do, largely, nowadays, eschew higher ed, and think that sending junior there is going to reprogram him to become a her, a commie atheistic one as well (even though many of those flyover folks are not particularly religious-cum-spiritual themselves, just resident in a region/ subculture where public religious identification is very high, certainly very much higher than in Berkeley-- indeed, one of the problems of the prog left is that, like it or not, it has hardened into some very anti-religious attitudes).   That said, 'looking down on' the white working class is not exactly difficult to do nowadys, like it or not.  Simply put, we are now often seeing behavior in this class that used to be seen only in the underclass).   This is not only seen in such things as illegitimacy rates, drug use, refusal to work, etc., but even in basic attitudes and public behaviors.   It is just not uncommon to see and hear such people doing things that their grandparents, members of the same class, would not have been caught dead doing in public, and mostly would not have done in private, either.  Imagine in, say, 1975, a 30-ish mother standing next to her 5yo in a supermarket checkout line, where every other word out of her mouth would have to be bleeped out on tv, where she reeks of weed, and where she is dressed like a sex worker, and covered with disgusting tattoos and piercings, with her hair suggestive of her membership in species H. smurfensis.   And this is supposed to be acceptable, and 'looking down on' such people is not?   I recently had a skank go through my wm checkout line.  It was a hot summer day, and she was wearing little, revealing numerous tatts, many of which could not even be covered up with a nun's habit.  I quickly noticed one tatt, which looked familiar, but I thought it could not be what I was thinking... until she turned and I saw a corresponding tatt on her other side.   It was a swastika, and the other an SS rune.   Were I a manager, I would have gone up to her and given her a choice between going outside to get some sort of coat or shirt to cover up, or just leaving, and told her that she was under no circumstances ever to let such tatts be seen in our store again, period, and this not open to any discussion or negotiation.  And I am not Jewish, not black.  Put simply, Jews and blacks, etc., deserve not to be frightened, intimidated, etc., by Nazis in public venues.   Similarly, decent people deserve to be able to come to the store, park, and not be harrassed by intimidating junkies seeking 'donations' in the parking lot.

Another interesting vignette from my lucrative pt retail situation also demonstrates the situation rather well.   We have a regular customer, a 40-something local white working class woman, really scuzzily tatted up, etc., who loves to wear numerous Trump buttons.  And then, we she is told what her total is.... out comes the food stamp card.   I have one myself, and support the program.  But I struggle, when I see her and other welfare-using Trumpanzees, to avoid shouting out something like 'hey brainless, do you really think Donald Trump wants you to have that food stamp card?'
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on October 27, 2022, 11:39:12 PM
Another question, building upon something marshy has said, regarding the difficulty of getting into a teacher training program in Canada: just how hard is this to do, and then how hard is it for the accepted teacher student to successfully complete the program?  And is graduation from such a program the only way to become a ps teacher in Canada?  IOW, are there alternative ways an adult seeking to do a career change can get into the k12 teacher profession?   What about a PhD whose degree is in a field taught in hs-- could he enter teaching in Canada, and would a school ever hire him?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 28, 2022, 05:10:57 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 27, 2022, 11:39:12 PM
Another question, building upon something marshy has said, regarding the difficulty of getting into a teacher training program in Canada: just how hard is this to do, and then how hard is it for the accepted teacher student to successfully complete the program?  And is graduation from such a program the only way to become a ps teacher in Canada?  IOW, are there alternative ways an adult seeking to do a career change can get into the k12 teacher profession?   What about a PhD whose degree is in a field taught in hs-- could he enter teaching in Canada, and would a school ever hire him?

Education is provincial, so I can't speak with certainty, but as far as I know, anyone needs teacher certification. (There may be exceptions for short term emergencies, but again I'm not 100% certain.) For someone with a degree, teacher's college is a year or two, and some courses can be taken online and part-time, so someone could do it before leaving their previous employment.

Teacher's college has its flaws, but there are plenty of people with PhDs who are horrible at teaching graduate students, so unleashing them on children is unthinkable. (Not to mention the fact that all of the crowd control/attendance monitoring, etc. required in public school would be completely foreign to academics across the board.)

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on October 28, 2022, 09:38:55 AM
Not as foreign to this academic....
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on October 28, 2022, 10:17:05 AM
Considering that Canada is physically huge, and has lots of scattered low population communities miles and miles from anywhere, is there a teacher shortage there, at least in places like this?   What, therefore, is done to get certified teachers to go to these places for work?  I am still not necessarily convinced that Canada somehow has  a very hard bar for admitting 18yos to teacher colleges, harder than here, but would be willing to be disabused of this notion?   Put perhaps differently, what is different about the k12 teacher profession there?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 28, 2022, 10:25:26 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 28, 2022, 10:17:05 AM
Considering that Canada is physically huge, and has lots of scattered low population communities miles and miles from anywhere, is there a teacher shortage there, at least in places like this?   What, therefore, is done to get certified teachers to go to these places for work?  I am still not necessarily convinced that Canada somehow has  a very hard bar for admitting 18yos to teacher colleges, harder than here, but would be willing to be disabused of this notion?   Put perhaps differently, what is different about the k12 teacher profession there?

I remember from some years ago that actually Canada is more urbanized than the US, since there's a smaller portion of the population who don't live near a major centre. (Most of the truly remote places are completely uninhabited. Indigenous communities are a large portion of the small, isolated communities, and they usually want to get teachers from those communities.)

And 18 year olds can't go to teacher's college; they need a degree first.

ETA: Some programs are concurrent, so that in 5 or 6 years a student gets their education degree and another degreee.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on October 28, 2022, 06:18:39 PM
I looked up Ontario's requirements out of curiosity. Indigenous teachers do not need a bachelor's degree if they teach in a Primary-Junior division. They do need to complete a teacher education program.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on October 28, 2022, 09:07:52 PM
So lemme see if I get this correctly-- teachers college is a grad program, and no 18 year olds straight from hs go there, meaning that no 22yos straight from college head into a classroom as independent teachers?

Now one other question comes to mind-- how are ps teachers in Canada paid, and what is their social status?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 29, 2022, 06:12:33 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 28, 2022, 09:07:52 PM
So lemme see if I get this correctly-- teachers college is a grad program, and no 18 year olds straight from hs go there, meaning that no 22yos straight from college head into a classroom as independent teachers?

Now one other question comes to mind-- how are ps teachers in Canada paid, and what is their social status?

An education degree is a BEd, so not a graduate program even though it's after another degree. However, teacher salaries are quite good, (as are salaries for most government jobs), and they have powerful unions and good benefits. So as long as someone doesn't mind all of the politics of the education bureaucracy and the union, it's a decent living. As for social status, most parents are reasonably happy with their own kids' teachers, although many might be less enthusiastic about some of the actions of the teachers' unions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 29, 2022, 01:49:39 PM
If you want information about Canadian K-12 teacher licensing, start a different thread.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on October 29, 2022, 05:01:20 PM
If you would like to see some dizzying discount rate data by private institution, check this out. The data is from 2020, so use that context.
https://www.highereddatastories.com/2022/10/private-colleges-and-discount-2020.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on October 29, 2022, 05:18:09 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on October 29, 2022, 05:01:20 PM
If you would like to see some dizzying discount rate data by private institution, check this out. The data is from 2020, so use that context.
https://www.highereddatastories.com/2022/10/private-colleges-and-discount-2020.html

I must reiterate that discounting [financial aid] does not subtract from revenue, it adds to it. Discounts are given to students who would not otherwise attend the institution, either for being too poor or for being too smart.

Discounting is a solution, not a problem.

The article seems to fit into all business self-lamenting: Gee, I wish my selling prices were higher, or gee, I wish there were less competition!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on October 30, 2022, 01:00:08 PM
Quote from: dismalist on October 29, 2022, 05:18:09 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on October 29, 2022, 05:01:20 PM
If you would like to see some dizzying discount rate data by private institution, check this out. The data is from 2020, so use that context.
https://www.highereddatastories.com/2022/10/private-colleges-and-discount-2020.html

I must reiterate that discounting [financial aid] does not subtract from revenue, it adds to it. Discounts are given to students who would not otherwise attend the institution, either for being too poor or for being too smart.

Discounting is a solution, not a problem.

The article seems to fit into all business self-lamenting: Gee, I wish my selling prices were higher, or gee, I wish there were less competition!

Discounting only adds to revenue if there is an increase in the number of students attending which offsets the loss in net tuition revenue per student. Otherwise, that institution's demand is so soft that they are practically begging students to attend, and while they have butts in seats, the net tuition revenue is falling. Since costs tend to increase over time (unless you are streamlining operations somehow, which has its own limits with the cost disease), for colleges in dire financial straits, increasing discount rates *are* a problem. Couple that with the fact that there are fewer college-bound students, means that many schools are getting less and less money per student, with the same labor and operational costs.

Ever-increasing discount rates are a bad sign for many schools. Further, if a school's discount rate is increasing and enrollments are still falling, then discounting clearly isn't the solution.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on October 30, 2022, 01:16:12 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on October 30, 2022, 01:00:08 PM
Quote from: dismalist on October 29, 2022, 05:18:09 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on October 29, 2022, 05:01:20 PM
If you would like to see some dizzying discount rate data by private institution, check this out. The data is from 2020, so use that context.
https://www.highereddatastories.com/2022/10/private-colleges-and-discount-2020.html

I must reiterate that discounting [financial aid] does not subtract from revenue, it adds to it. Discounts are given to students who would not otherwise attend the institution, either for being too poor or for being too smart.

Discounting is a solution, not a problem.

The article seems to fit into all business self-lamenting: Gee, I wish my selling prices were higher, or gee, I wish there were less competition!

Discounting only adds to revenue if there is an increase in the number of students attending which offsets the loss in net tuition revenue per student. Otherwise, that institution's demand is so soft that they are practically begging students to attend, and while they have butts in seats, the net tuition revenue is falling. Since costs tend to increase over time (unless you are streamlining operations somehow, which has its own limits with the cost disease), for colleges in dire financial straits, increasing discount rates *are* a problem. Couple that with the fact that there are fewer college-bound students, means that many schools are getting less and less money per student, with the same labor and operational costs.

Ever-increasing discount rates are a bad sign for many schools. Further, if a school's discount rate is increasing and enrollments are still falling, then discounting clearly isn't the solution.

Wrong, wrong, wrong! One must not assume that one can get the same number of students without price discrimination ["discounting"]. The suppliers, here colleges, are not stupid.

Ever increasing discount rates means prices are falling in the face of reduced demand. Fantastic for the customers, I think! Stopping price discrimination will reduce enrollments.

It's all a call for less competition, which in addition to being inefficient, is also illegal.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on October 30, 2022, 02:18:20 PM
Someone's addicted to supply-and-demand curves.

But I think my Econ 102 instructor,  who, back in the day, pointed out that while we'd learned them for 101 as a tool for static analysis, we'd need to expand our analytic repertoire beyond them, since they were less useful in analyzing more dynamic situations.

Something about, "If you've only got a hammer, everything looks like a nail," I believe...

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on October 30, 2022, 02:22:07 PM
Quote from: mamselle on October 30, 2022, 02:18:20 PM
Someone's addicted to supply-and-demand curves.

But I think my Econ 102 instructor,  who, back in the day, pointed out that while we'd learned them for 101 as a tool for static analysis, we'd need to expand our analytic repertoire beyond them, since they were less useful in analyzing more dynamic situations.

Something about, "If you've only got a hammer, everything looks like a nail," I believe...

M.

By all means, go dynamic!

I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something, and knowing something.
--Richard Feynman


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 30, 2022, 03:23:04 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on October 30, 2022, 01:00:08 PM

Discounting only adds to revenue if there is an increase in the number of students attending which offsets the loss in net tuition revenue per student. Otherwise, that institution's demand is so soft that they are practically begging students to attend, and while they have butts in seats, the net tuition revenue is falling. Since costs tend to increase over time (unless you are streamlining operations somehow, which has its own limits with the cost disease), for colleges in dire financial straits, increasing discount rates *are* a problem.

I think what is at issue is the marginal cost per student. If classes aren't full, then the cost of adding one student comes down to the incremental increase in grading, etc. added for that student. That may only be a couple of hundred dollars per course under the right circumstances. (And if they're good students, needing little or no extra help, etc., then it could be even lower.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on October 30, 2022, 03:35:33 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 30, 2022, 03:23:04 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on October 30, 2022, 01:00:08 PM

Discounting only adds to revenue if there is an increase in the number of students attending which offsets the loss in net tuition revenue per student. Otherwise, that institution's demand is so soft that they are practically begging students to attend, and while they have butts in seats, the net tuition revenue is falling. Since costs tend to increase over time (unless you are streamlining operations somehow, which has its own limits with the cost disease), for colleges in dire financial straits, increasing discount rates *are* a problem.

I think what is at issue is the marginal cost per student. If classes aren't full, then the cost of adding one student comes down to the incremental increase in grading, etc. added for that student. That may only be a couple of hundred dollars per course under the right circumstances. (And if they're good students, needing little or no extra help, etc., then it could be even lower.)

Absolutely, Marsh. Accepting anybody willing to pay above marginal cost adds to profit, which stays home at non-profits.

Higher ed is a tad trickier than movie theaters [adults vs. kids prices] in the sense that the smartness of your college's customers affect demand, too, and you don't want to wreck your reputation, wherever you might be on the quality spectrum. Hence, discounts for both the poor and the smart.

There is no loss of tuition revenue from discounting.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on October 30, 2022, 04:21:41 PM
Meant metaphorically...the dependence on a rigorous orthodoxy of econo-splaining wears thin after awhile.

M.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on October 30, 2022, 05:24:49 PM
Yes some of these explanations start sounding like "Well that's just the way it is, so how could it be anything that it is not?" Everything is precisely as it is supposed to be, so no complaining allowed please!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on October 30, 2022, 05:41:47 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on October 30, 2022, 05:24:49 PM
Yes some of these explanations start sounding like "Well that's just the way it is, so how could it be anything that it is not?" Everything is precisely as it is supposed to be, so no complaining allowed please!

I'm telling you what's happening and explaining why, and even why it gets more students. I'm not telling anybody that it's supposed to be like this. My preferences are -- well, very different. Others' preferences will differ from mine.

If you want a different process which will lead to a different outcome, you gotta get the Feds and/or the States to change the rules and spend more cash. That means elections would decide. You can of course allocate resources to higher ed through the market or through politics or something in between. I think the magic of higher ed is gone, so best of luck of with the politics.

Complaining is allowed, of course. But it seems to usually boil down to the two-year-old's lament -- I want more.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 30, 2022, 07:03:00 PM
Quote from: dismalist on October 30, 2022, 05:41:47 PM
I think the magic of higher ed is gone, so best of luck of with the politics.

But it seems to usually boil down to the two-year-old's lament -- I want more.

Yeah, that's a fair evaluation of those people who are currently watching their careers die on the vine.

Good magic is expensive. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on October 30, 2022, 07:08:12 PM
Quote from: dismalist on October 30, 2022, 05:41:47 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on October 30, 2022, 05:24:49 PM
Yes some of these explanations start sounding like "Well that's just the way it is, so how could it be anything that it is not?" Everything is precisely as it is supposed to be, so no complaining allowed please!

Complaining is allowed, of course. But it seems to usually boil down to the two-year-old's lament -- I want more.

On a thread about colleges in dire financial straits, its not about wanting more. It's about not wanting to close. It is about schools admitting 90% of their applicants and still failing to make a class size that keeps the lights on. It's not about the cost of the last student admitted, it is about the money from the total headcount at the school failing to cover total operating costs. No matter how you slice it, revenue is falling at dire places, despite schools offering discounts and despite some schools enrolling more students (and quite frankly I'm seeing the opposite where schools are having trouble making their desired class sizes.) The plan isn't working, and we're hearing about those schools on this thread and seeing the writing on the wall at other places. Schools doing "Hail Mary" things like tuition resets, discount rates of 75% or more, and whatever else they can think of, still aren't getting enough students enrolled to run the institution. Enticing one more student off the couch isn't solving this problem. They can add that student's small financial contribution to revenue, but overall total revenue is falling due to the combination of heavy discounting and declining headcounts. Some schools are already past 75% discount rates. To me, that's a leading indicator of a problem at that institution. Sure, a school can mark up its tuition all its wants to mark it down, but there is a limit to how much a school can discount and still receive a positive payment from students. And schools can't grow their way out of this problem, at least not all of them. Unless we can all be above average.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on October 30, 2022, 07:30:10 PM
Yeah, you can only do a heavy discount on a list price that is pretty close to what the consumer would expect from a similar college (give or take several thousand...but not 10 or 20 thousand). Though colleges can't collude on price, they certainly can see over time what other colleges are charging, and decide whether they want to do that, or whether they could get away with higher. Some might want to try to get away with pricing lower, but most colleges insist that would degrade their brand. People would think "that place must be cheap because its low quality".  My feeling is that heavy discounting off a bogus list price only works because its stroking everyone's ego---you call the discount some sort of scholarship, and also recruit them for a sport, and they think they are genius and an ace quarterback.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on October 30, 2022, 07:40:03 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on October 30, 2022, 07:08:12 PM
Quote from: dismalist on October 30, 2022, 05:41:47 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on October 30, 2022, 05:24:49 PM
Yes some of these explanations start sounding like "Well that's just the way it is, so how could it be anything that it is not?" Everything is precisely as it is supposed to be, so no complaining allowed please!

Complaining is allowed, of course. But it seems to usually boil down to the two-year-old's lament -- I want more.

On a thread about colleges in dire financial straits, its not about wanting more. It's about not wanting to close. It is about schools admitting 90% of their applicants and still failing to make a class size that keeps the lights on. It's not about the cost of the last student admitted, it is about the money from the total headcount at the school failing to cover total operating costs. No matter how you slice it, revenue is falling at dire places, despite schools offering discounts and despite some schools enrolling more students (and quite frankly I'm seeing the opposite where schools are having trouble making their desired class sizes.) The plan isn't working, and we're hearing about those schools on this thread and seeing the writing on the wall at other places. Schools doing "Hail Mary" things like tuition resets, discount rates of 75% or more, and whatever else they can think of, still aren't getting enough students enrolled to run the institution. Enticing one more student off the couch isn't solving this problem. They can add that student's small financial contribution to revenue, but overall total revenue is falling due to the combination of heavy discounting and declining headcounts. Some schools are already past 75% discount rates. To me, that's a leading indicator of a problem at that institution. Sure, a school can mark up its tuition all its wants to mark it down, but there is a limit to how much a school can discount and still receive a positive payment from students. And schools can't grow their way out of this problem, at least not all of them. Unless we can all be above average.

Good thoughts, Treader.

One must distinguish between the situation of individual colleges and the situation of higher ed as a whole. Individual colleges, by pursuing discounting, are doing the best they can given the situation in higher ed as a whole. If what they do is not enough, they will disappear. It's no different from candy stores or milk deliverers, should anybody remember.

My strong urge is merely to understand that, given the situation, discounting is a solution for individual colleges, not a problem.

Stopping discounting would require a change in the law, as competition would have to be curtailed. That's politics, and I doubt there'd be sufficient support for more resources for higher ed.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on October 31, 2022, 06:01:05 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 30, 2022, 07:03:00 PM
Quote from: dismalist on October 30, 2022, 05:41:47 PM
I think the magic of higher ed is gone, so best of luck of with the politics.

But it seems to usually boil down to the two-year-old's lament -- I want more.

Yeah, that's a fair evaluation of those people who are currently watching their careers die on the vine.

Good magic is expensive.

The problem is that the underlying assumption in peoples' laments seems to be that "someone" (be it administrators, governments, etc.) can and should "fix" the problem. The demographic decline in certain areas is not "fixable", (especially since it's a global problem), and institutions which now exist would not be built in those same areas today because they would not be viable. "If only" thinking is not the healthy way to face any serious problem. Potential action has to be grounded in realistic possibilities with likely outcomes.

Sympathy for job losses is one thing; supporting magical thinking is quite another.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 31, 2022, 09:49:14 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 31, 2022, 06:01:05 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 30, 2022, 07:03:00 PM
Quote from: dismalist on October 30, 2022, 05:41:47 PM
I think the magic of higher ed is gone, so best of luck of with the politics.

But it seems to usually boil down to the two-year-old's lament -- I want more.

Yeah, that's a fair evaluation of those people who are currently watching their careers die on the vine.

Good magic is expensive.

The problem is that the underlying assumption in peoples' laments seems to be that "someone" (be it administrators, governments, etc.) can and should "fix" the problem. The demographic decline in certain areas is not "fixable", (especially since it's a global problem), and institutions which now exist would not be built in those same areas today because they would not be viable. "If only" thinking is not the healthy way to face any serious problem. Potential action has to be grounded in realistic possibilities with likely outcomes.

Sympathy for job losses is one thing; supporting magical thinking is quite another.

Yes, Marshy. 

I was responding to dismalist's little jab about a two-year-old "wanting more," which is not the situation.

You picked up the "magical thinking" business from Polly, huh?  You are wrong.  Polly was wrong.  No one has magical thinking. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on October 31, 2022, 10:17:51 AM
Sounds like a fac senate meeting at every place I've worked. Every department wants more lines, more money, etc. Infrastructure is also crumbling. State might pay to fix some of the infrastructure issues, but not for more money for operations.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 01, 2022, 10:44:21 AM
Over at IHE, columnist Rachel Toor  (https://www.insidehighered.com/advice/2022/09/20/professor-tries-convince-herself-not-quit-academe-opinion)writes about her university in dire financial straits, or "circling the drain" as she puts it. (She is professor of creative writing at Eastern Washington University in Spokane, WA)

She describes her view of the situation as
QuoteOur industry has not changed for hundreds of years. It's a giant, slow-moving ship that now must turn quickly. You can learn to turn with it. You can stay and listen to the strings play "Nearer My God to Thee" as it sinks, or you can head for a lifeboat.

My view of "our industry" of higher education is that it has been continuously changing. Basically the opposite impression of Prof. Toor. The department I joined does not exist, but I'm part of a new, stronger department. Our curriculum, nominally in the same subject, reflects current student needs and interests because the field's technology and economy have changed a lot. Even the local community college has vastly changed its curriculum as the economy and regional higher-education offerings have changed.

There are certainly conservative aspects to the university, such as the institution's reason for existing is the same as at the founding, and the basic funding model is sound. That conservatism at the center lets us be responsive at the edges. Departments start new initiatives and drop those that are not longer useful. Is that the difference between a college in dire financial straits and one that is not? Has the lack of necessary change at CWU resulted in its challenges? 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on November 01, 2022, 10:57:12 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 01, 2022, 10:44:21 AM
Over at IHE, columnist Rachel Toor  (https://www.insidehighered.com/advice/2022/09/20/professor-tries-convince-herself-not-quit-academe-opinion)writes about her university in dire financial straits, or "circling the drain" as she puts it. (She is professor of creative writing at Eastern Washington University in Spokane, WA)

She describes her view of the situation as
QuoteOur industry has not changed for hundreds of years. It's a giant, slow-moving ship that now must turn quickly. You can learn to turn with it. You can stay and listen to the strings play "Nearer My God to Thee" as it sinks, or you can head for a lifeboat.

My view of "our industry" of higher education is that it has been continuously changing. Basically the opposite impression of Prof. Toor. The department I joined does not exist, but I'm part of a new, stronger department. Our curriculum, nominally in the same subject, reflects current student needs and interests because the field's technology and economy have changed a lot. Even the local community college has vastly changed its curriculum as the economy and regional higher-education offerings have changed.

From the article:
Quote
But if I can convince myself I have a brand-new role, one in which I help prepare students for careers completely different from mine, I may be able to keep going. That means I have new challenges and must ask hard questions about what they need to learn, not just what I enjoy teaching.

If it's only recently that she's had to ask hard questions about what students need to learn, then she does represent that large, slow-moving ship.

Quote
There are certainly conservative aspects to the university, such as the institution's reason for existing is the same as at the founding, and the basic funding model is sound. That conservatism at the center lets us be responsive at the edges. Departments start new initiatives and drop those that are not longer useful. Is that the difference between a college in dire financial straits and one that is not?

It may not be the whole story, (due to demographic shifts and such), but it's certainly going to be a major factor.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: aprof on November 01, 2022, 12:55:02 PM
What a vapid article.  It seems mostly written to generate publicity for her new book.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 01, 2022, 01:41:22 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 01, 2022, 10:57:12 AM
From the article:
Quote
But if I can convince myself I have a brand-new role, one in which I help prepare students for careers completely different from mine, I may be able to keep going. That means I have new challenges and must ask hard questions about what they need to learn, not just what I enjoy teaching.

If it's only recently that she's had to ask hard questions about what students need to learn, then she does represent that large, slow-moving ship.

One shudders to think that agile forward-thinking administrators are held back by recalcitrant faculty.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on November 02, 2022, 12:01:29 PM
I'm lucky enough to work in an environment where trying new things is valued.  Our units are small - no matter what your skill set is, you are an N of 1 in that area.  In my time at Artem U, I have been able to move to a new department twice and change my academic interests, coursework, and research program across 3 different fields.  I describe myself as the academic equivalent of a  utility infielder.  I've added 2 new credentials that allow me to teach in new programs.

I really don't care who does or does not appreciate or value me.  My locus of control for my career is entirely internal.  I don't need a dean or dept head telling me what to do next or blowing me kisses.  I've more than once simply presented them with a plan for my next step and they sign off on it.

I can't tell you how grateful I am to work in that kind of environment.  I'm not trying to humble brag (and probably failing at that) but I have been able to pursue new academic, scholarly and teaching interests over the last 30 years.  I advocate for myself HARD.  I've only got 3-5 more years to run before I move to the ranks of the emeriti.  I know I've been lucky, and I know I am of a generation that came up before things got so dire.  But on the bright side, none of you will have to read my quit lit blog when the day comes. 

Those of you so inclined can feel free to throw tomatoes and rotten eggs at this, but my experiences are my own.  For many of you, things have never been rosy and are slated to get worse.  You have my sincere commiserations.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on November 02, 2022, 01:44:16 PM
To tell the truth, my career has mostly been similar.

However, there can be a certain unintentional  tyranny associated with a group valuing autonomy above most else.  I have noticed it sometimes becoming a "get off my lawn" sort of effect that can lead to a significant number of people not embracing change that *might* touch on their "stuff."  Of course the flip side is why get into changing around lots of stuff if its going to seriously change the level at which we can be autonomous, especially if the old way gets good results.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on November 02, 2022, 10:17:17 PM
What's your PhD in, that you were able to move depts twice?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 03, 2022, 01:53:12 PM
The right level of innovation for a school to stay in good financial health is likely where individual initiative like secundem's is supported, but it is done in a way that supports the central mission of the school and department. Where is gets some complementary engagement from other faculty. It is hard to tell the visionary team inspirer from the lone wolf in some ways. Both like a lot of autonomy. But the results are pretty different.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Harlow2 on November 04, 2022, 08:09:59 AM
Cabrini University in suburban Philadelphia. Accreditor (Middle States) is looking at the planned "cuts" of senior academic leadership and the merging 2 of its colleges. Positions involved include the provost and several deans and 18 department chairs.  Deficit is mounting and enrollment in severe decline.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on November 04, 2022, 08:58:02 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 02, 2022, 10:17:17 PM
What's your PhD in, that you were able to move depts twice?

I'm in a clinical field & have a professional doctorate.  I added a Master's in a parallel field and it's given me flexibility across disciplines in a school where, as I said, most folk are an N of 1 in their field. 

Rural guy and Hibush mention the possibility that some of what I've done can lead to faculty running off the rails and becoming rogue elements.  In my case, I knew there were new programs being developed and specifically sought a credential to let me participate in that program - I now run it.  I've worked with my dept head to create a new major that is bringing in new students.  My last sabbatical was designed to sit nicely in the middle of 3 other groups' strategic plans.  They couldn't fund me fast enough.

As Hibush says, the trick is to be innovative and still support the university's central mission.  I've been quite intentional in how I've done that.

As always, your mileage may vary. 

And, as always, it REALLY helps if you don't work for idiots.  I don't.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on November 04, 2022, 09:59:05 AM
The way I see it is that if faculty start using autonomy as an excuse for *not* doing things (the "you can't make me!" effect),
then its not healthy. Its healthy if its leading to a personal *and* institutional benefit.  Of course, sometimes faculty opposition is justified, so I am not saying faculty can't ever dig heels in to oppose proposal X from whomever. I just mean that if this is the overlaying sense of autonomy you  get from a workplace, then it probably isn't working as well as, say, the situation SA describes.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 04, 2022, 12:51:59 PM
Admin at our college is killing seven programs, including the Spanish major.  What university kills foreign languages!?  It's not like Spanish is an important language in contemporary America.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on November 04, 2022, 12:59:08 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 04, 2022, 12:51:59 PM
Admin at our college is killing seven programs, including the Spanish major.  What university kills foreign languages!?  It's not like Spanish is an important language in contemporary America.

My guess is the number of majors is small, right? Will the college stop teaching Spanish? My guess is most foreign language majors are going to disappear. You are seeing that at many of the schools that have cut a significant number of faculty in recent years. What are the outcomes of those majoring in Spanish? Do they end up double majoring or going to grad school in a different field?

I also teach in a field under threat. I have ideas that could lead to better outcomes, but no takers on getting a consensus on revising our curriculum.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on November 04, 2022, 01:26:17 PM
Our language majors, especially Spanish, usually double major in Business or Government. Although our Hispanic student  pop is low, their representation among the Spanish majors is relatively high ( I suppose they are "subsidized" by prior language and culture knowledge). Other languages on campus are fading away fast in terms of popularity for fulfilling requirements and for majoring or minoring.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 04, 2022, 03:25:50 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 04, 2022, 12:51:59 PM
Admin at our college is killing seven programs, including the Spanish major.  What university kills foreign languages!?  It's not like Spanish is an important language in contemporary America.

Ours killed French and German in 2016, and barely spared Spanish. Intro French (four semesters) is still being taught. I and III in Fall, and II and IV in Spring.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 04, 2022, 05:19:57 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on November 04, 2022, 08:58:02 AM
it REALLY helps if you don't work for idiots.  I don't.

This is the secret to staying out of dire financial straits! Faculty contribute a lot, and happily.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on November 04, 2022, 05:33:15 PM

It may not in the end be the  cure. There really no substitute for money. But a house divided against itself can't stand, and a faculty buzzing away isn't just distracted, bit actually working to support the institution in some way. So, yes, a cooperative and busy faculty (and staff) can at least stave off or at least not contribute to the fall of the college/university.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on November 05, 2022, 11:21:23 AM
We're going to need to accept the fact that some majors are going to need to lean on other disciplines to fill out course offerings. The issue on many campuses is no one wants to do it. Or you have a discipline willing to count 1-3 classes from another discipline to count for the major, but other disciplines won't do the same.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on November 06, 2022, 01:18:38 PM
Quote from: Mobius on November 05, 2022, 11:21:23 AM
We're going to need to accept the fact that some majors are going to need to lean on other disciplines to fill out course offerings. The issue on many campuses is no one wants to do it. Or you have a discipline willing to count 1-3 classes from another discipline to count for the major, but other disciplines won't do the same.

I 100% agree and yet somehow folks cannot see the writing on the wall and a potential solution before them.

The only things people can agree on: 1.)They hate the way things are and 2.)They hate change.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 11, 2022, 07:00:37 PM
Birkbeck College, University of London, founded in 1823.
"Citing financial pressures,  (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/11/the-guardian-view-on-university-cuts-jeopardising-a-precious-heritage)the college's bosses propose to cut up to a quarter of all teaching staff from departments including English and geography, plus up to a third of administrators.

Universities that were committed to levelling up have shut or shrunk courses that don't fit the government's narrowing agenda. 

Closures are blamed on deficits combined with falling demand. This followed the decision in 2016 to lift caps on student numbers, which freed the most prestigious universities to recruit more, but meant places elsewhere went unfilled. "

All that sounds familiiar, except the University of London isn't in the lower part of the prestige ladder.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: AmLitHist on November 28, 2022, 08:41:50 AM
One of the WI CC's has come to its end:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/in-wisconsin-a-merger-cant-save-a-community-college?utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=campaign_5603428_nl_Academe-Today_date_20221128&cid=at&source=ams&sourceid=&cid2=gen_login_refresh
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on November 28, 2022, 08:50:51 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on November 28, 2022, 08:41:50 AM
One of the WI CC's has come to its end:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/in-wisconsin-a-merger-cant-save-a-community-college?utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=campaign_5603428_nl_Academe-Today_date_20221128&cid=at&source=ams&sourceid=&cid2=gen_login_refresh

From the article:
Quote
Enrollment at Richland Center has plummeted from 567 students in 2014 to just over a tenth of that number this fall, according to system data.

It's amazing that it's survived for this long if this decline has been steady.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 28, 2022, 10:44:46 AM
Whittier College is shutting down their football team and other sports programs:


https://www.whittierdailynews.com/2022/11/15/whittier-college-appears-to-be-ending-football-program-after-115-years-but-school-hasnt-made-it-official/



Because they're trying to save academic programs, or because they've already shut a number of those down?  I notice the article mentions that a number of smaller colleges in the region have already shut down their football programs. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on November 28, 2022, 12:08:54 PM
Would never fly at my SLAC, which is fairly similar to Whittier academically.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mamselle on November 28, 2022, 12:35:02 PM
Rant:

I HATE FOOTBALL!

WHY/WHY/HOW DID IT BECOME A CREEPING CANCER ON OUR ACADEMIC SYSTEMS?

HOW CAN WE EXCISE IT?*

       There.

All better now....

M.

* Recall, my U/G was at Ohio State.....
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 28, 2022, 05:39:06 PM
Whittier shut down football, golf and lacrosse, and expects to save about $700,000 a year.

The LA Times (https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-11-27/student-athletes-feel-tossed-aside-after-whittier-college-ends-ncaa-division-iii-sports) quotes a few disgruntled students, but they will either transfer or switch sports. "The school has a growing esports program, and the administration sees that as a place where the school can invest its resources."

They had the only NCAA lacrosse program on the west coast, which does make it a challenge (and expense) to maintain. Plus the coach was gone.

The football program does not seem like a loss: they "did not play in 2020 due to the pandemic and did not win any games in the season that started in 2021. Freshman Zach Fernandes, 19, played offensive line for the football team and never felt like he was playing college-level football due to the lack of fans in the stands and support from the school."   "The school spent roughly half a million dollars on the football program each year. But waning interest in the program — and game day attendance — has made it clear that football is not the draw that it used to be at Whittier College."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on November 28, 2022, 05:54:06 PM
Nixon played football at Whittier, so a bit of a historical blow. College football just doesn't sell in L.A. like it used to. There are a handful of D-III programs, but no D-II football programs. Long Beach State and Cal State Northridge had programs into the early '90s. UCLA drew 41,000 on average to the Rose Bowl in a good season this year.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on November 28, 2022, 08:08:45 PM
Although LA area is so big that it can draw crowds for many sporting events, in general it did not feel like people were as "into" their teams as, say New York or Boston.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on November 29, 2022, 08:23:52 AM
My place has football. I haven't been to a game and don't plan on it, since I'd rather watch ranked teams from my couch. The stadium is in awful shape and a replacement isn't coming anytime soon. Plus, the team usually has one winning season every 10 years. I attend a few basketball games in the winter as there isn't much to do locally in town, and the basketball team is competitive. Student attendance at basketball and football games is abysmal.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 29, 2022, 02:56:26 PM
Our students pay for football.  It is glommed onto their tuition payments.  The team did better this year than in past years (7-4) but not too many people care; crowds are meagre and high school football gets more time on the evening news than we do.  The players, with a few exceptions, are almost all from within 100 miles of the school.  They are normal sized human beings for the most part.  They resodded the football field to the tune of $600K while laying a number of us off. 

I know we have a basketball team----but I know nothing about it whatsoever.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 05, 2022, 08:54:36 AM
Apparently Olivet University has been fudging student numbers to the extent that it raises "questions over the extent to which Olivet functions as a learning institution at all."  This reporting is from Newsweek (https://www.newsweek.com/olivet-university-faces-accreditor-ultimatum-probes-violations-pile-1763957?), which turns out to have owners in common with Olivet. How is that for a twist?  It turns out that a 50% owner, Dev Pragad, is the publisher of Newsweek and a former member of the Olivet sect. The other 50% owner, Johnathan Davis, remains a member. The latter thinks Newsweek is doing a hit job to force him out. Definitely juicier than your usual tale of desperate moves in the face of inexorably declining enrollment.
Title: RIP Cazenovia
Post by: selecter on December 07, 2022, 09:13:37 AM
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2022/12/cazenovia-college-to-close-after-nearly-200-years.html
Title: Re: RIP Cazenovia
Post by: apl68 on December 07, 2022, 10:44:31 AM
Quote from: selecter on December 07, 2022, 09:13:37 AM
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2022/12/cazenovia-college-to-close-after-nearly-200-years.html

An awfully sad day for its faculty, staff, students, and alumni. 

That's an interesting history given in their article.  They've existed in some form or another for two centuries, but only became a four-year college in the late 1980s.  With hindsight it looks like they were too ambitious there.  But then at the time it probably seemed like jumping up to four-year college status was the best hope for the long term.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: BadWolf on December 07, 2022, 10:58:50 AM
Caz looks like it had been having issue for a while and flying under the radar, and their hand was forced when Middle States called them out on not being prepared for their upcoming reaccreditation visit this spring.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 23, 2022, 09:15:44 PM
NBC News: Holy Names University in Oakland to Close Next Year (https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/east-bay/holy-names-university-oakland-closing/3109450/)

"Merry Christmas.  We're closing!"
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 27, 2022, 08:36:02 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 23, 2022, 09:15:44 PM
NBC News: Holy Names University in Oakland to Close Next Year (https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/east-bay/holy-names-university-oakland-closing/3109450/)

"Merry Christmas.  We're closing!"

The timing of the announcement was awfully unfortunate for all concerned.  A lot of faculty, staff, students, and alumni will find this a heavy blow.

I notice from their Wikipedia entry that they seem to have followed a profile common to several of these small colleges that have closed in recent years.  They started out as private schools in the 19th century, became colleges in the 1900s when public high school education started to become common, and attempted to become a university only a few decades ago.  They have survived for generations by successfully chasing trends in education, but that strategy now no longer works for them. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on January 10, 2023, 05:16:46 AM
Manhattanville College continues to circle the drain:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2023/01/10/manhattanville-cuts-tenured-faculty-freezes-programs (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2023/01/10/manhattanville-cuts-tenured-faculty-freezes-programs).

$2.5 million deficit in FY 2021, $6 million deficit in FY 2020. It borrowed $20 million in FY 2021. 20% undergraduate FTE enrollment decline 2014-2021. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Cheerful on January 10, 2023, 07:24:20 AM
"Multiple faculty sources declined to speak on the record, saying that Manhattanville required departing professors to sign nondisparagement agreements in order to receive severance pay. Those who spoke on background said the current round of cuts include two tenured professors of art history, three tenured professors of English, one tenured professor of history, one tenured professor and one instructor of music, and one tenure-track professor of philosophy."

Is that requirement common in higher ed?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on January 10, 2023, 07:50:41 AM
Quote from: Cheerful on January 10, 2023, 07:24:20 AM
"Multiple faculty sources declined to speak on the record, saying that Manhattanville required departing professors to sign nondisparagement agreements in order to receive severance pay. Those who spoke on background said the current round of cuts include two tenured professors of art history, three tenured professors of English, one tenured professor of history, one tenured professor and one instructor of music, and one tenure-track professor of philosophy."

Is that requirement common in higher ed?

Sounds like they're arresting (and shooting) the usual liberal-arts suspects.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on January 10, 2023, 10:35:05 AM
Quote from: spork on January 10, 2023, 05:16:46 AM
Manhattanville College continues to circle the drain:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2023/01/10/manhattanville-cuts-tenured-faculty-freezes-programs (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2023/01/10/manhattanville-cuts-tenured-faculty-freezes-programs).

$2.5 million deficit in FY 2021, $6 million deficit in FY 2020. It borrowed $20 million in FY 2021. 20% undergraduate FTE enrollment decline 2014-2021.

Those deficits are particularly notable given the amount of COVID funds available during those years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on January 17, 2023, 06:55:33 AM
Hechinger Report: With student pool shrinking, some predict a grim year of college closings (https://hechingerreport.org/with-student-pool-shrinking-some-predict-a-grim-year-of-college-closings/)

Not sure if this says anything peeps here don't know.  But here it is.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on January 17, 2023, 07:42:00 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on January 17, 2023, 06:55:33 AM
Hechinger Report: With student pool shrinking, some predict a grim year of college closings (https://hechingerreport.org/with-student-pool-shrinking-some-predict-a-grim-year-of-college-closings/)

Not sure if this says anything peeps here don't know.  But here it is.

Fora members have known all the stuff in the article for a long time, as you say. What's more interesting is that potential students and their parents are starting to consider a college's financial stability in their college selection. They don't want to end up at a place that might not actually have the means to meet students' needs & expectations or might close down (however remote) halfway through their degree program.

Articles like the Olivia Sanchez article are piling on and are unwittingly advertising the precarious position of sLACs, to the potential students, and are accelerating the decline of sLACs in an act of self-fulfilling prophesy.

Good for my university, I guess, as our enrollments continue to remain stable and have been stable, partly because some of our new enrollments are students who are now afraid of attending a sLAC or are refugees from a closed or dying sLAC. But some admincritters and politicians, use articles like the Sanchez article as an excuse to cut budgets even for financially healthy places like mine, citing general gloom-and-doom inspired by gloom-and-doom articles. Frankly, I'm getting tired of these articles, and I'm really getting tired of admincritters using these articles to justify cutting budgets when we are in the black, have stable and in some years growing enrollments, and have been breaking records with our grants and fund-raising. And, it's articles like this that are used to sharpen the axe.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on January 17, 2023, 07:57:05 AM
Quote from: lightning on January 17, 2023, 07:42:00 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on January 17, 2023, 06:55:33 AM
Hechinger Report: With student pool shrinking, some predict a grim year of college closings (https://hechingerreport.org/with-student-pool-shrinking-some-predict-a-grim-year-of-college-closings/)

Not sure if this says anything peeps here don't know.  But here it is.

Fora members have known all the stuff in the article for a long time, as you say. What's more interesting is that potential students and their parents are starting to consider a college's financial stability in their college selection. They don't want to end up at a place that might not actually have the means to meet students' needs & expectations or might close down (however remote) halfway through their degree program.

Articles like the Olivia Sanchez article are piling on and are unwittingly advertising the precarious position of sLACs, to the potential students, and are accelerating the decline of sLACs in an act of self-fulfilling prophesy.

That's a real concern, all right.  The perception that a struggling school is as good as doomed could easily finish it off.  Some SLACs with a fighting chance might end up being crushed by negative perceptions that become self-fulfilling prophecies.

And yet...many of the schools we've seen on this thread have clearly tried to keep going past the point at which they really should have been planning an orderly shutdown, so as not to leave students in the lurch.  It's only fair to students and parents that they be made aware of the fact that the worst could happen.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on January 17, 2023, 01:47:50 PM
Quote from: lightning on January 17, 2023, 07:42:00 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on January 17, 2023, 06:55:33 AM
Hechinger Report: With student pool shrinking, some predict a grim year of college closings (https://hechingerreport.org/with-student-pool-shrinking-some-predict-a-grim-year-of-college-closings/)

Not sure if this says anything peeps here don't know.  But here it is.

Fora members have known all the stuff in the article for a long time, as you say. What's more interesting is that potential students and their parents are starting to consider a college's financial stability in their college selection. They don't want to end up at a place that might not actually have the means to meet students' needs & expectations or might close down (however remote) halfway through their degree program.

Articles like the Olivia Sanchez article are piling on and are unwittingly advertising the precarious position of sLACs, to the potential students, and are accelerating the decline of sLACs in an act of self-fulfilling prophesy.

Good for my university, I guess, as our enrollments continue to remain stable and have been stable, partly because some of our new enrollments are students who are now afraid of attending a sLAC or are refugees from a closed or dying sLAC. But some admincritters and politicians, use articles like the Sanchez article as an excuse to cut budgets even for financially healthy places like mine, citing general gloom-and-doom inspired by gloom-and-doom articles. Frankly, I'm getting tired of these articles, and I'm really getting tired of admincritters using these articles to justify cutting budgets when we are in the black, have stable and in some years growing enrollments, and have been breaking records with our grants and fund-raising. And, it's articles like this that are used to sharpen the axe.

Doom and gloom sells papers1, as does hype on expansion. For the future health of higher education, it's worth having articles that describe normal as the large number of schools that have stable enrollment, reasonable finances and provide a sound education.

Articles like that could be written from or about schools like yours. The articles could be basically accurate and still make readers optimistic about going to college.

That is not who is writing the articles.


1I mean generates clicks.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: rth253 on January 18, 2023, 06:57:11 AM
Presentation College, a Catholic SLAC in South Dakota, will close at the end of Summer 2023.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: rth253 on January 18, 2023, 07:01:05 AM
Link re: Presentation College: https://www.insidehighered.com/live-updates
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on January 18, 2023, 08:33:33 AM
Quote from: rth253 on January 18, 2023, 06:57:11 AM
Presentation College, a Catholic SLAC in South Dakota, will close at the end of Summer 2023.

This school was founded with the specific mission of training nurses to serve rural communities. That need still remains, but is it a viable business? There used to be lots of small nursing-training outfits that were not tied to colleges and universities.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on January 18, 2023, 10:36:40 AM
Northern State, also in Aberdeen, offers a pre-nursing program. Don't know if Northern State will upgrade to a bachelor's program.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on January 29, 2023, 06:07:09 PM
Webster University losing giant bags of money. Fast.


https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/education/as-annual-losses-reach-25m-webster-university-looks-to-pivot-student-focus/article_67d29702-415a-5817-aadd-1f0b572586ee.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on January 30, 2023, 07:40:02 AM
Quote from: selecter on January 29, 2023, 06:07:09 PM
Webster University losing giant bags of money. Fast.


https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/education/as-annual-losses-reach-25m-webster-university-looks-to-pivot-student-focus/article_67d29702-415a-5817-aadd-1f0b572586ee.html

Nothing unusual, unfortunately, in the strategy of jettisoning liberal arts and going big on more vocational STEM and business degrees that are what the vast majority of potential students now want.  It's a perfectly understandable response to the market.  Webster, however, seems to have decided to take the plunge and go very, very big with lots of borrowed money.  And the gamble has clearly not paid off.  Another case of "just because you're willing to sell out, doesn't mean anybody will be buying."

They're in this shape and got a C- rating for their finances.  Imagine what it would take for an institution to make a D....
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 08, 2023, 05:42:06 PM
Update on Birmingham-Southern: https://www.wvtm13.com/article/birmingham-southern-college-meeting-with-students-to-discuss-options/42782235# (https://www.wvtm13.com/article/birmingham-southern-college-meeting-with-students-to-discuss-options/42782235#). Can't tell if its president is trying to blow smoke or is just stupid when it comes to numbers.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on February 08, 2023, 07:02:39 PM
Quote from: spork on February 08, 2023, 05:42:06 PM
Update on Birmingham-Southern: https://www.wvtm13.com/article/birmingham-southern-college-meeting-with-students-to-discuss-options/42782235# (https://www.wvtm13.com/article/birmingham-southern-college-meeting-with-students-to-discuss-options/42782235#). Can't tell if its president is trying to blow smoke or is just stupid when it comes to numbers.

Are you questioning whether the baseball team is ranked first and the softball team is ranked second? lol. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 09, 2023, 07:19:13 AM
They're admitting more students and still running seriously in the red?  Is that because enrollment dropped drastically at some point and is just now starting to rebound?


Asking the state legislature--any state legislature--for a $30 million bailout in today's climate seems like a forlorn hope.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 09, 2023, 09:56:53 AM
Number of applicants and number of admits is different from number enrolled.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on February 09, 2023, 02:21:01 PM
Philedelphia Magazine: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid (https://www.phillymag.com/news/2023/02/08/temple-strike-philadelphia)

Quote
The standoff began last week with several hundred Temple University graduate students — who also work for Temple as part of their graduate studies, as graduate students tend to do — walking out, picket signs in hand, to demand better pay and benefits from the state-funded public university. This marks the first time that members of the 20-year-old Temple University Graduate Students Association Local 6290 have ever gone on strike.

******

"Any Temple employee that decides to strike forfeits their pay and complete benefits package," explained Temple University senior vice president and chief operating officer Ken Kaiser. "Tuition remission is part of the TUGSA benefit package. Therefore, they are no longer eligible."

A little more thorough coverage:

Business Insider: Students who participated in a strike at Temple University are being told they will lose their tuition and health care benefits (https://www.businessinsider.com/temple-university-suspends-free-tuition-for-striking-grad-students-2023-2)

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ProfessorPlum on February 10, 2023, 01:44:10 AM
Quote from: spork on February 08, 2023, 05:42:06 PM
Update on Birmingham-Southern: https://www.wvtm13.com/article/birmingham-southern-college-meeting-with-students-to-discuss-options/42782235# (https://www.wvtm13.com/article/birmingham-southern-college-meeting-with-students-to-discuss-options/42782235#). Can't tell if its president is trying to blow smoke or is just stupid when it comes to numbers.

Birmingham-Southern president isn't blowing smoke. Without state funds, the school will have to close at the end of the semester. This article provides a detailed explanation of how BSC got to this point: https://www.al.com/news/2023/01/whitmire-looking-for-a-way-forward-bscs-time-is-running-out.html?outputType=amp
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on February 10, 2023, 06:00:00 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on February 09, 2023, 02:21:01 PM
Philedelphia Magazine: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid (https://www.phillymag.com/news/2023/02/08/temple-strike-philadelphia)

Quote
The standoff began last week with several hundred Temple University graduate students — who also work for Temple as part of their graduate studies, as graduate students tend to do — walking out, picket signs in hand, to demand better pay and benefits from the state-funded public university. This marks the first time that members of the 20-year-old Temple University Graduate Students Association Local 6290 have ever gone on strike.

******

"Any Temple employee that decides to strike forfeits their pay and complete benefits package," explained Temple University senior vice president and chief operating officer Ken Kaiser. "Tuition remission is part of the TUGSA benefit package. Therefore, they are no longer eligible."

A little more thorough coverage:

Business Insider: Students who participated in a strike at Temple University are being told they will lose their tuition and health care benefits (https://www.businessinsider.com/temple-university-suspends-free-tuition-for-striking-grad-students-2023-2)

As expected during a strike. While I agree they have issues they'd like the university to address, strikes are not consequence-free actions. This Tweet is a bit over the top: https://twitter.com/jennarsterling/status/1623387037817802752?s=42&t=niuOqykc9uIqRWo3ZrFXQg
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 11, 2023, 07:13:23 AM
Quote from: ProfessorPlum on February 10, 2023, 01:44:10 AM
Quote from: spork on February 08, 2023, 05:42:06 PM
Update on Birmingham-Southern: https://www.wvtm13.com/article/birmingham-southern-college-meeting-with-students-to-discuss-options/42782235# (https://www.wvtm13.com/article/birmingham-southern-college-meeting-with-students-to-discuss-options/42782235#). Can't tell if its president is trying to blow smoke or is just stupid when it comes to numbers.

Birmingham-Southern president isn't blowing smoke. Without state funds, the school will have to close at the end of the semester. This article provides a detailed explanation of how BSC got to this point: https://www.al.com/news/2023/01/whitmire-looking-for-a-way-forward-bscs-time-is-running-out.html?outputType=amp

Thanks for the link!

So, another case of a downward financial spiral begun when a school tried to fancy up  a dreary postwar utilitarian campus.  I've noticed that tower architectural follies seem to be very common on such fancied-up campuses.  Wonder why?

I've often worried that Alma Mater, which has rebuilt a great deal of its campus since I was there in the 1980s, has spent itself into trouble.  So far they seem to be doing okay, so perhaps their gamble of spending on pretty architecture to convince prospective students that it's a good place to be has been paying off.  They never built a tower, though.  The newer buildings are all functional as well as pretty.

I know of a library that did something a bit like this some years back.  They spent millions they didn't actually have remodeling an historic structure downtown into a fancy branch library.  The library's director was greatly admired for his achievements, until he died and it was revealed that he'd left the library hopelessly in debt.  The situation was so bad it took a couple of searches to find a new director willing to try to fix the mess.  She's done a remarkable job of doing so. 

It goes to show that comebacks are sometimes possible.  I wish Birmingham-Southern could pull it off.  Again, though, if their survival depends on getting millions from the Alabama legislature, it's very hard to see it happening.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on February 11, 2023, 06:41:43 PM
IHE: A Harbinger for 2023? Presentation College to Close (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2023/01/19/more-colleges-will-likely-face-closure-2023-experts-say#at_pco=cfd-1.0)

Lower Deck:
Quote
The small private institution is closing due to enrollment challenges and other issues exacerbated by COVID-19. Some higher education experts expect more closures to follow.

Quote
While many of the colleges that announced closures last year cited the coronavirus, in part, for putting them out of business, experts note that federal government funding during the COVID-19 pandemic may have kept many institutions alive. Now that the spigot of federal relief funds has been shut off, higher education observers believe that other embattled institutions may ultimately succumb to closure, a path that many were on prior to the pandemic.

And in a higher education world divided into haves and have-nots, analysts see particularly choppy waters ahead for nonselective private nonprofit institutions and increased operational challenges for underfunded regional public universities.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 14, 2023, 06:26:53 PM
The Chronicle has an article  (https://www.chronicle.com/article/big-drops-in-enrollment-hit-colleges-in-the-first-fall-of-the-pandemic-who-was-able-to-bounce-back)on colleges that have continued to lose enrolment compared to those that bounced back. They find 573 institutions are continuing to drop. Those appear to be in two categories, one the super-dinky (<200 students to start) or community colleges.
Some public R1s had a big drop but came right back.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on February 14, 2023, 06:43:15 PM
Quote from: Hibush on February 14, 2023, 06:26:53 PM
The Chronicle has an article  (https://www.chronicle.com/article/big-drops-in-enrollment-hit-colleges-in-the-first-fall-of-the-pandemic-who-was-able-to-bounce-back)on colleges that have continued to lose enrolment compared to those that bounced back. They find 573 institutions are continuing to drop. Those appear to be in two categories, one the super-dinky (<200 students to start) or community colleges.
Some public R1s had a big drop but came right back.

BPCR - can you post the text?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on February 14, 2023, 07:06:12 PM
There are a number of graphics, data tables, that don't come through.  I think you can get a pass to look at these things just by signing up for their newsletter with an email.

Quote
Big Drops in Enrollment Hit Colleges in the First Fall of the Pandemic. Who Was Able to Bounce Back?
By  Brian O'Leary and Audrey Williams June
FEBRUARY 14, 2023
After the pandemic began in early 2020, colleges grappled with a frightening prospect: What if first-time students skipped going to college in the fall?

Many colleges' fears about attendance, of course, came true. And the drop in first-time students — whose numbers drive enrollment each year — proved to be especially steep at community colleges.

A big question loomed for the following fall: Would enrollment be able to bounce back?

A Chronicle analysis of federal data offers some insights about how the enrollment of first-time, degree-seeking students at more than 2,600 colleges in our sample fared the following year. Read on to see whose enrollments recovered, whose started clawing their way back, and whose kept falling.

But first, let's look at how pervasive the declines were in the first fall following the pandemic's start; enrollment in The Chronicle's sample fell at about three in four institutions.


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We were particularly interested in what happened at the harder-hit colleges, where enrollment dropped by 10 percent or more. Despite high hopes that first-time student attendance would rebound in the fall of 2021, that outcome largely didn't pan out, The Chronicle's analysis shows. The inability to recoup enrollment losses was most evident at public colleges.


For some types of colleges, the road to recovery was more uphill than most. Of the 560 institutions classified as associate colleges and whose first-time student enrollment fell by at least 10 percent in 2020, only one in 20 recouped the students they lost the following year. On the other side of the spectrum, about 25 percent of doctoral institutions saw enrollment return to pre-pandemic levels.


Of the 1,257 colleges whose enrollment fell by at least 10 percent in the fall of 2020, 137 recovered the first-time students they lost by the fall of 2021. Another 540 didn't fully recover but saw enrollment headed in the right direction. At another 573 institutions, however, enrollment continued to drop. And at seven institutions — three of them community colleges — first-time enrollment dropped in 2020 and stayed at the same level the following year.


Methodology
Data is from the Department of Education's Integrated Postsecondary Education Data System (Ipeds). Enrollment data is for all first-time degree-seeking students. Only degree-granting Title IV-eligible colleges in the U.S., including Washington, D.C., in 2021 are included. Colleges that did not have 2019 and 2020 data are excluded.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 15, 2023, 02:49:12 AM
Per the story in today's Inside Higher Ed: Whittier College. Deficits in FYs 2017, 2018, 2020, and 2021. Its FTE undergrad enrollment climbed fairly steadily from only 1,026 in 2006 to 1,763 in 2020. Then a 14% drop to 1,473 in 2021. The numbers don't make much sense to me, unless the college was only attracting students by increasing its discount rate so much that it couldn't cover its operating expenses.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 15, 2023, 07:49:32 AM
They make sense to me, because they come close to matching my school's data, at least by trendline.

We have a crazy discount rate, and its unsustainable.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on February 15, 2023, 09:43:20 AM
At every "budget town hall" we get shown Artem U's balance sheet and told that we are in good shape.  Given that the overwhelming majority of our assets are fixed assets, this is not particularly helpful information.  It's not as if we can sell a dorm hall to pay the bills.  Our P&L is not nearly so rosy, but they tend to gloss over that.

I sometimes suspect that too many faculty operate under some charming delusion that the Dean, the Provost or the President has a ton of money they're not discussing and we could all get fat raises if only........
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 15, 2023, 05:38:00 PM
Its a question of priorities. At a small school, a raise pool can be significantly less than 1M. But with that kind of money, they draw in better coaches, fancier dressing for dorms, etc. So, its not so much that people fool themselves into thinking we're in great shape, but they know we spend "extra" on things they don't like much. Never mind that those very things are the things that draw in students, which is really how you get raises.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on February 16, 2023, 03:54:17 AM
In my experience, we spend that little tiny bit of "in the black" on something that could help us grow, instead we drop another 2%, and the raises never come. I've been looking for something to break that cycle for 10 years. It isn't esports.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: BadWolf on February 16, 2023, 05:10:15 AM
Middle States sent out a notice about ASA College yesterday. I don't ever recall getting an email directly from them about a school's accreditation.

https://www.msche.org/2023/02/15/msche-statement-on-the-announced-closure-of-asa-college/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MSCHE+Statement+on+the+Announced+Closure+of+ASA+College&utm_campaign=20230214+-+Statement+on+Closure+ASA+College+%28All+Minus+Key%29&vgo_ee=zR8vbeYgHPEd6paA7l58k7TV8qsFUfI%2F1ISxnX2Ui4c%3D

If you read the history it looks like they've been trouble for a long time.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Langue_doc on February 16, 2023, 08:59:04 AM
Quote from: BadWolf on February 16, 2023, 05:10:15 AM
Middle States sent out a notice about ASA College yesterday. I don't ever recall getting an email directly from them about a school's accreditation.

https://www.msche.org/2023/02/15/msche-statement-on-the-announced-closure-of-asa-college/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MSCHE+Statement+on+the+Announced+Closure+of+ASA+College&utm_campaign=20230214+-+Statement+on+Closure+ASA+College+%28All+Minus+Key%29&vgo_ee=zR8vbeYgHPEd6paA7l58k7TV8qsFUfI%2F1ISxnX2Ui4c%3D

If you read the history it looks like they've been trouble for a long time.

Talk to anyone who has worked there. They should have been shut down a long time ago.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 16, 2023, 10:14:51 AM
Quote from: BadWolf on February 16, 2023, 05:10:15 AM
Middle States sent out a notice  (https://www.msche.org/2023/02/15/msche-statement-on-the-announced-closure-of-asa-college/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MSCHE+Statement+on+the+Announced+Closure+of+ASA+College&utm_campaign=20230214+-+Statement+on+Closure+ASA+College+%28All+Minus+Key%29&vgo_ee=zR8vbeYgHPEd6paA7l58k7TV8qsFUfI%2F1ISxnX2Ui4c%3D)about ASA College yesterday. I don't ever recall getting an email directly from them about a school's accreditation.

If you read the history it looks like they've been trouble for a long time.

In the FAQ about what will happen to faculty when it shuts down, the accredittor (MSHCE) has this disturbing information about the quality and reliability of their records. They practically say "we think you are lying."

QuoteASA College has reported that all personnel records are digitized and will be uploaded to the iSolved HCM™, an HR management and payroll processing company. MSCHE has not received any evidence of a contract with iSolved HCM™ and required ASA College to provide details of the contract with iSolved HCM™. The quality and substance of that report was insufficient to permit Commission review.

ASA College has reported that all financial records will be maintained by QuickBooks™. MSCHE has not received any evidence of a contract with QuickBooks™ and is requiring ASA College to provide details of the contract with QuickBooks™. The quality and substance of that report was insufficient to permit Commission review.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 19, 2023, 03:43:33 AM
I looked up Saint Leo University after Inside Higher Ed reported that it is closing satellite campus operations, eliminating some athletic teams, etc. Though not in dire straits because of its size, the school as lost 45% of its undergrad FTE enrollment since pre-2008 recession. Grad FTE enrollment is down 26% since 2016. Consistent deficits since FY 2018.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on February 19, 2023, 09:06:23 AM
That's my issue with some faculty who constantly complain. We're not getting more money. If we want to spend money on marketing, that means less for raises and replacing lines.

Quote from: secundem_artem on February 15, 2023, 09:43:20 AM
At every "budget town hall" we get shown Artem U's balance sheet and told that we are in good shape.  Given that the overwhelming majority of our assets are fixed assets, this is not particularly helpful information.  It's not as if we can sell a dorm hall to pay the bills.  Our P&L is not nearly so rosy, but they tend to gloss over that.

I sometimes suspect that too many faculty operate under some charming delusion that the Dean, the Provost or the President has a ton of money they're not discussing and we could all get fat raises if only........
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 20, 2023, 12:50:20 PM
News is out that IUPUI is splitting (https://www.chronicle.com/article/in-an-era-of-college-mergers-why-is-one-large-public-university-splitting) into IUI and PU.  It is not that school in dire financial straits, but the success of both IU and Purdue that squeezes smaller or less effective schools.

"Purdue has seen eight years of record enrollments, with nearly 51,000 students total. IU's Bloomington campus welcomed 9,736 new undergrads this fall, also a record. IUPUI's undergraduate enrollment has fallen from 21,777 in the fall of 2014 to 17,278 in 2022, a decline of nearly 21 percent.

With the better focus on serving Indianapolis, IUI will likely push back up in enrollment.

These big schools are growing nicely, even in the rust belt. Among the three campuses enrollment is about 125,000 students serving a state of not-quite 7 million (IU 45,000; Purdue 51,000; IUPUI 28,000) or about 40% of Indiana demand.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on February 20, 2023, 01:20:09 PM
Quote from: Hibush on February 20, 2023, 12:50:20 PM
News is out that IUPUI is splitting (https://www.chronicle.com/article/in-an-era-of-college-mergers-why-is-one-large-public-university-splitting) into IUI and PU.  It is not that school in dire financial straits, but the success of both IU and Purdue that squeezes smaller or less effective schools.

"Purdue has seen eight years of record enrollments, with nearly 51,000 students total. IU's Bloomington campus welcomed 9,736 new undergrads this fall, also a record. IUPUI's undergraduate enrollment has fallen from 21,777 in the fall of 2014 to 17,278 in 2022, a decline of nearly 21 percent.

With the better focus on serving Indianapolis, IUI will likely push back up in enrollment.

These big schools are growing nicely, even in the rust belt. Among the three campuses enrollment is about 125,000 students serving a state of not-quite 7 million (IU 45,000; Purdue 51,000; IUPUI 28,000) or about 40% of Indiana demand.

I am intimately acquainted with this. The Fort Wayne campus (IPFW, now PFW) did this around 2016. The BoTs asserted in each case it was to grow the student enrollment by capitalizing on the "brands" of the two flagships. Hasn't happened at Fort Wayne. Cynical minds believe it had much more with the Presidents' inability to play nicely, and the Legislature's weariness with that. Plus, in the Fort Wayne case, IU has used the opportunity to try grow it's hospital system which was not present in that corner of the state.

IU has eight  campuses throughout the state, and Purdue has three, along with satellite tech centers for students in several cities. Enrollment growth at the two Purdue regional campuses (Fort Wayne and Northwest) has not grown appreciably since 2016.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 21, 2023, 06:04:29 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on February 14, 2023, 06:43:15 PM
Quote from: Hibush on February 14, 2023, 06:26:53 PM
The Chronicle has an article  (https://www.chronicle.com/article/big-drops-in-enrollment-hit-colleges-in-the-first-fall-of-the-pandemic-who-was-able-to-bounce-back)on colleges that have continued to lose enrolment compared to those that bounced back. They find 573 institutions are continuing to drop. Those appear to be in two categories, one the super-dinky (<200 students to start) or community colleges.
Some public R1s had a big drop but came right back.

BPCR - can you post the text?

It is an interface to a database, so the text can't be copied to here. Also shows only the top 50 of the schools, so not even a good interface. I think you have to pay extra for full access, and some schools will do so.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 21, 2023, 06:07:57 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on February 20, 2023, 01:20:09 PM
Quote from: Hibush on February 20, 2023, 12:50:20 PM
News is out that IUPUI is splitting (https://www.chronicle.com/article/in-an-era-of-college-mergers-why-is-one-large-public-university-splitting) into IUI and PU. 

I am intimately acquainted with this. The Fort Wayne campus (IPFW, now PFW) did this around 2016. The BoTs asserted in each case it was to grow the student enrollment by capitalizing on the "brands" of the two flagships. Hasn't happened at Fort Wayne. Cynical minds believe it had much more with the Presidents' inability to play nicely, and the Legislature's weariness with that. Plus, in the Fort Wayne case, IU has used the opportunity to try grow it's hospital system which was not present in that corner of the state.

IU has eight  campuses throughout the state, and Purdue has three, along with satellite tech centers for students in several cities. Enrollment growth at the two Purdue regional campuses (Fort Wayne and Northwest) has not grown appreciably since 2016.

You appear to be in a great position to assess the factors that determine relative competitiveness among schools that vary in size, acadmic offerings, location, sportsball prominence and other factors we speculate about. Also whether Indiana students with college potential are being served well. Looking forward to any insight based on what you see there.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Anselm on February 22, 2023, 10:35:15 AM
https://www.thegazette.com/higher-education/kirkwood-community-college-cutting-programs-faculty-and-staff/

Not exactly dire but surprising to me.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on February 22, 2023, 06:16:15 PM
In recent years the students I've known at many of the Purdue branch campuses are hoping to transfer to the main campus. I know the branch campuses are built to serve local populations, but they seem to have evolved to serve as second-choice entry portals for the main campus. That is, with an over-abundance of applicants at the main campus, it's easier for students to get accepted into the branch campuses. But that's not where they want to end up, ultimately, so they go to the branch campuses hoping to leave. So that's a puzzler for the planners.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on February 22, 2023, 06:34:44 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on February 22, 2023, 06:16:15 PM
In recent years the students I've known at many of the Purdue branch campuses are hoping to transfer to the main campus. I know the branch campuses are built to serve local populations, but they seem to have evolved to serve as second-choice entry portals for the main campus. That is, with an over-abundance of applicants at the main campus, it's easier for students to get accepted into the branch campuses. But that's not where they want to end up, ultimately, so they go to the branch campuses hoping to leave. So that's a puzzler for the planners.

It's only a puzzle for the planners, not for the customers! Let the various branches charge different prices and we'd see which is doing best! :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on February 22, 2023, 06:43:10 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on February 22, 2023, 06:16:15 PM
In recent years the students I've known at many of the Purdue branch campuses are hoping to transfer to the main campus. I know the branch campuses are built to serve local populations, but they seem to have evolved to serve as second-choice entry portals for the main campus. That is, with an over-abundance of applicants at the main campus, it's easier for students to get accepted into the branch campuses. But that's not where they want to end up, ultimately, so they go to the branch campuses hoping to leave. So that's a puzzler for the planners.

I don't know who is selling the Purdue branch campuses, but the credits from the branch campuses do not automatically transfer to the West Lafayette campus.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 23, 2023, 07:43:24 AM
Quote from: Anselm on February 22, 2023, 10:35:15 AM
https://www.thegazette.com/higher-education/kirkwood-community-college-cutting-programs-faculty-and-staff/

Not exactly dire but surprising to me.

Wonder if the "Dental Technology" program they're cutting refers to training dental hygienists?  That's been a tremendously popular field in recent years, and may have become saturated.

So "Energy Production and Distribution Technologies" has had low enrollment?  I would have thought it would have been the opposite, what with all the new power infrastructure projects going on around the country, and the need for trained technicians in those fields.  Maybe that program's particular offerings weren't a good fit for what the field currently needs?  Or maybe demand is so great that you can get hired making good money at an entry level without having to pay for a degree first?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 23, 2023, 08:34:30 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 23, 2023, 07:43:24 AM
Quote from: Anselm on February 22, 2023, 10:35:15 AM
https://www.thegazette.com/higher-education/kirkwood-community-college-cutting-programs-faculty-and-staff/

Not exactly dire but surprising to me.

Wonder if the "Dental Technology" program they're cutting refers to training dental hygienists?  That's been a tremendously popular field in recent years, and may have become saturated.

So "Energy Production and Distribution Technologies" has had low enrollment?  I would have thought it would have been the opposite, what with all the new power infrastructure projects going on around the country, and the need for trained technicians in those fields.  Maybe that program's particular offerings weren't a good fit for what the field currently needs?  Or maybe demand is so great that you can get hired making good money at an entry level without having to pay for a degree first?

I don't know about these specific programs, but institutions often create new programs (or rename existing ones) to try to cash in on popular perceptions about what will make graduates employable without necessarily tracking the outcomes. So things that sound good on paper may turn out to be pretty useless in the job market.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on February 23, 2023, 08:47:16 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 23, 2023, 08:34:30 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 23, 2023, 07:43:24 AM
Quote from: Anselm on February 22, 2023, 10:35:15 AM
https://www.thegazette.com/higher-education/kirkwood-community-college-cutting-programs-faculty-and-staff/

Not exactly dire but surprising to me.

Wonder if the "Dental Technology" program they're cutting refers to training dental hygienists?  That's been a tremendously popular field in recent years, and may have become saturated.

So "Energy Production and Distribution Technologies" has had low enrollment?  I would have thought it would have been the opposite, what with all the new power infrastructure projects going on around the country, and the need for trained technicians in those fields.  Maybe that program's particular offerings weren't a good fit for what the field currently needs?  Or maybe demand is so great that you can get hired making good money at an entry level without having to pay for a degree first?

I don't know about these specific programs, but institutions often create new programs (or rename existing ones) to try to cash in on popular perceptions about what will make graduates employable without necessarily tracking the outcomes. So things that sound good on paper may turn out to be pretty useless in the job market.

Also, students go blindly into programs without really thinking it through. Dental Hygienists, for example, get paid lousy, but they don't figure that out until they are done with their trendy Dental Tech program.

Welding is the same thing. Although some welders get paid awesome, most welders get paid lousy with poor working conditions, and sometimes the awesomely paid welders get paid so much because of poor working conditions. Again, most people going into these programs have no idea about these realities until they are done with the program.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on February 23, 2023, 10:04:52 AM
Quote from: lightning on February 22, 2023, 06:43:10 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on February 22, 2023, 06:16:15 PM
In recent years the students I've known at many of the Purdue branch campuses are hoping to transfer to the main campus. I know the branch campuses are built to serve local populations, but they seem to have evolved to serve as second-choice entry portals for the main campus. That is, with an over-abundance of applicants at the main campus, it's easier for students to get accepted into the branch campuses. But that's not where they want to end up, ultimately, so they go to the branch campuses hoping to leave. So that's a puzzler for the planners.

I don't know who is selling the Purdue branch campuses, but the credits from the branch campuses do not automatically transfer to the West Lafayette campus.

The regionals (not branches) such as Purdue Fort Wayne and IUPUI have more students from the flagships transfer to them than the reverse. Hegemony is correct in recent years as Purdue WL reduced in state student acceptance a bit. It is very common for the students who think they are going to transfer to flagship just don't once they start at one of the larger regionals.

lightning is correct except for courses that have been negotiated or are part of the Indiana Core Transfer Library. Those have to transfer per state statute.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 23, 2023, 11:44:24 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 23, 2023, 07:43:24 AM
Quote from: Anselm on February 22, 2023, 10:35:15 AM
https://www.thegazette.com/higher-education/kirkwood-community-college-cutting-programs-faculty-and-staff/

Not exactly dire but surprising to me.

Wonder if the "Dental Technology" program they're cutting refers to training dental hygienists?  That's been a tremendously popular field in recent years, and may have become saturated.

So "Energy Production and Distribution Technologies" has had low enrollment?  I would have thought it would have been the opposite, what with all the new power infrastructure projects going on around the country, and the need for trained technicians in those fields.  Maybe that program's particular offerings weren't a good fit for what the field currently needs?  Or maybe demand is so great that you can get hired making good money at an entry level without having to pay for a degree first?

Thry also dumped their truck driver training program despite apparent high demand (and turnover). But I can understand that the operating costs are considerable.  Do prospective truck drivers prefer schools with no distribution requirements tied to CDL preparation?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 23, 2023, 12:50:40 PM
Just teach me how to back a big rig up a steep driveway. All that Plato and Shakespeare sounds interesting, but I think I'll learn it some other time.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on February 23, 2023, 01:43:50 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 23, 2023, 12:50:40 PM
Just teach me how to back a big rig up a steep driveway. All that Plato and Shakespeare sounds interesting, but I think I'll learn it some other time.

Yeah, via Audible/Libby/etc. on those long-haul trips.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 24, 2023, 04:54:07 AM
The King's College, NYC: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2023/02/24/small-college-needs-26m-survive-its-raised-178k (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2023/02/24/small-college-needs-26m-survive-its-raised-178k).

Form 990s show that on average it gets about a third of its revenue from contributions. It does not earn enough tuition revenue from program operations to be viable.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 24, 2023, 05:21:50 AM
Quote from: spork on February 24, 2023, 04:54:07 AM
The King's College, NYC: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2023/02/24/small-college-needs-26m-survive-its-raised-178k (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2023/02/24/small-college-needs-26m-survive-its-raised-178k).

Form 990s show that on average it gets about a third of its revenue from contributions. It does not earn enough tuition revenue from program operations to be viable.

This is a wierd one. About 25 yeas ago Campus Crusade for Christ took over the charter of a defunct school and began operatioins at various places around NY. They went their separate ways about 10 years ago. Seems like viability was a challenge from the outset.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 24, 2023, 07:26:43 AM
Quote from: FishProf on February 23, 2023, 01:43:50 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 23, 2023, 12:50:40 PM
Just teach me how to back a big rig up a steep driveway. All that Plato and Shakespeare sounds interesting, but I think I'll learn it some other time.

Yeah, via Audible/Libby/etc. on those long-haul trips.

And in most places your local public library can set you up.

Our e-book consortium of small-to-medium-sized libraries recently had the honor of featuring OverDrive's one billionth checkout.  Quite a shock, given that we're only one consortium among many, and not the biggest.  It wasn't a patron at our library, but we were able to parlay the announcement into a front-page article on our local paper.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 27, 2023, 07:07:04 AM
Bethany College, WV. Deficits every FY since 2008 except for 2018, when it sold $2.7 million in assets and received $10.2 million in contributions but only had $1.5 million in net revenue. 35% decline in FTE undergrad enrollment since a 2011 peak of 900. Per news reports, it has postponed its search for a president, probably because all of the finalists walked away after seeing the college's balance sheet.

Anyone who is working there should be looking for a new job.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 27, 2023, 08:19:54 AM
Quote from: spork on February 27, 2023, 07:07:04 AM
Bethany College, WV. Deficits every FY since 2008 except for 2018, when it sold $2.7 million in assets and received $10.2 million in contributions but only had $1.5 million in net revenue. 35% decline in FTE undergrad enrollment since a 2011 peak of 900. Per news reports, it has postponed its search for a president, probably because all of the finalists walked away after seeing the college's balance sheet.

Anyone who is working there should be looking for a new job.

I think they've been on this thread once or twice before.  They've been going downhill for a long time.  I wonder whether this could be their final year?  Their trouble finding a president suggests that this could end up being an especially messy and abrupt final collapse.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 27, 2023, 09:30:38 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 27, 2023, 08:19:54 AM
Quote from: spork on February 27, 2023, 07:07:04 AM
Bethany College, WV.

I think they've been on this thread once or twice before.  They've been going downhill for a long time.  I wonder whether this could be their final year?  Their trouble finding a president suggests that this could end up being an especially messy and abrupt final collapse.

You don't think the eSports minor  (https://www.wtrf.com/news/education/esports-among-new-studies-at-bethany-college/)launched this spring will revive enrollment enough to justify spiffing up the dorms to house 300 additional students?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 27, 2023, 10:40:53 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 27, 2023, 09:30:38 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 27, 2023, 08:19:54 AM
Quote from: spork on February 27, 2023, 07:07:04 AM
Bethany College, WV.

I think they've been on this thread once or twice before.  They've been going downhill for a long time.  I wonder whether this could be their final year?  Their trouble finding a president suggests that this could end up being an especially messy and abrupt final collapse.

You don't think the eSports minor  (https://www.wtrf.com/news/education/esports-among-new-studies-at-bethany-college/)launched this spring will revive enrollment enough to justify spiffing up the dorms to house 300 additional students?

You can't say they aren't trying to keep up their spirits and accentuate the positive!  I wonder where they plan to get the money for that dorm renovation mentioned in the last paragraph?  Given the brute facts that spork cites above, it sounds delusional.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 27, 2023, 02:06:46 PM
Quote from: apl68 on February 27, 2023, 10:40:53 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 27, 2023, 09:30:38 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 27, 2023, 08:19:54 AM
Quote from: spork on February 27, 2023, 07:07:04 AM
Bethany College, WV.

I think they've been on this thread once or twice before.  They've been going downhill for a long time.  I wonder whether this could be their final year?  Their trouble finding a president suggests that this could end up being an especially messy and abrupt final collapse.

You don't think the eSports minor  (https://www.wtrf.com/news/education/esports-among-new-studies-at-bethany-college/)launched this spring will revive enrollment enough to justify spiffing up the dorms to house 300 additional students?

You can't say they aren't trying to keep up their spirits and accentuate the positive!  I wonder where they plan to get the money for that dorm renovation mentioned in the last paragraph?  Given the brute facts that spork cites above, it sounds delusional.

In my opinion it's borderline criminally fraudulent. Potential students should go elsewhere. Marshall University, for example, is about 20% less expensive to attend and its graduation rate is 10 percentage points higher.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 02, 2023, 04:17:11 AM
Not unexpected given the merger with Montclair State: at least 10 of 43 full-time faculty at Bloomfield College had their jobs terminated.

More Bloomfield employees will be deemed redundant in the coming months.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 03, 2023, 04:41:40 AM
Finlandia University will close in May.

Anyone working at a private institution with an FTE undergrad enrollment of less than 600 needs to find another job as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 03, 2023, 05:07:48 AM
Quote from: spork on March 03, 2023, 04:41:40 AM
Finlandia University will close in May.

Anyone working at a private institution with an FTE undergrad enrollment of less than 600 needs to find another job as soon as possible.

That boggles my mind. We have currently about 600 in the first year of our program. (And we're not the biggest university in 100 km.)

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 03, 2023, 07:39:37 AM
There are scads of little colleges like this in some regions, filling all sorts of regional niches.  For many years it was possible to make a school like that work.  But in the college world, as in so much else, economies of scale, increasing complexity, and a general tendency toward centralization with a few winners and many, many losers is killing off the little guys.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 03, 2023, 08:10:25 AM
Much of the mid-Atlantic through to New England has many small colleges, most of which you've probably never heard of. yes, many of them, especially those in areas served by much bigger public and private schools have gone away.

if a college endowment is very large, it can struggle for a long time  even under a poor enrollment environment, BUT that doesn't mean that it will (and it likely won't!) keep the same level of faculty and staff employment during the decades long death spiral.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Diogenes on March 03, 2023, 08:33:20 AM
Not sure if posted yet, but North Idaho College (at CC) just had it's credit rating downgraded.

I'm not super stoked on the fact that a public good has to survive on it's reputation for value for private equity.

https://www.chronicle.com/article/after-final-warning-from-its-accreditor-north-idaho-colleges-credit-rating-is-downgraded
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 03, 2023, 09:04:03 AM
Quote from: Diogenes on March 03, 2023, 08:33:20 AM
Not sure if posted yet, but North Idaho College (at CC) just had it's credit rating downgraded.

I'm not super stoked on the fact that a public good has to survive on it's reputation for value for private equity.

https://www.chronicle.com/article/after-final-warning-from-its-accreditor-north-idaho-colleges-credit-rating-is-downgraded

Private equity is upset because of the dysfunctional academic administration, which has led to programs that the accreditor won't approve.
"Prolonged and public disputes among the board and the college, as well as the local community, have resulted in turnover in the office of the president and legal counsel, litigation, delayed audits, and most notably, possible loss of accreditation."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 14, 2023, 01:57:59 PM
Henderson State University, having cut 88 faculty positions and 25 degrees, is now adding two STEM degrees that it presumably believes have a future:

QuoteThe Bachelor of Science degree in Natural Sciences approved Friday provides a pathway for students who desire to explore the world through the natural sciences, according to the ASU System.

The degree plan serves students pursuing prerequisites for medical school, dental school, pharmacy school, dental hygiene school, veterinary school -- such as the one Arkansas State University plans to open in Jonesboro in 2025 or 2026 -- optometry school, and physical therapy school, according to the ASU System.

The students expected to enroll in this program are those currently interested in biology and chemistry, medical school, and other professional pathways, as well as students who are seeking future STEM degrees.

The program has the space and equipment necessary to offer all courses listed, according to the ASU System. "No new faculty are required for this proposed program as it is only comprised of current course offerings."

The other program approved Friday, the Bachelor of Science degree in Secondary Education, with a focus on Math Education, will require one new full-time faculty member to be hired at $65,000 annually, according to the ASU System.


https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2023/mar/11/henderson-state-adding-2-degrees/


The Bachelor of Science in Secondary Education makes sense in light of Henderson's longtime role as a teachers' college.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 14, 2023, 05:18:56 PM
It's probably time to turn most of our colleges into trade schools.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on March 14, 2023, 10:08:52 PM
Will anyone who enrolls in the new BS in Natural Sciences from this school, ahem, actually be able to use said degree to get into med school?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Langue_doc on March 15, 2023, 05:31:04 AM
Clarion University is trying to stay afloat despite its shrinking enrolment.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/13/business/economy/college-towns-economy.html

QuoteColleges Have Been a Small-Town Lifeline. What Happens as They Shrink?
Declining student enrollment is hitting the rural areas that rely on universities. They're trying to adapt to survive.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 15, 2023, 05:32:41 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 14, 2023, 01:57:59 PM
Henderson State University, having cut 88 faculty positions and 25 degrees, is now adding two STEM degrees that it presumably believes have a future:

Quote
The program has the space and equipment necessary to offer all courses listed, according to the ASU System. "No new faculty are required for this proposed program as it is only comprised of current course offerings."

So if it gets more students than they currently have, it's a win, no matter how many are in that specific "program".

Quote from: kaysixteen on March 14, 2023, 10:08:52 PM
Will anyone who enrolls in the new BS in Natural Sciences from this school, ahem, actually be able to use said degree to get into med school?

That will mostly depend on how good the students are that go into the program.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on March 15, 2023, 05:52:57 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 14, 2023, 10:08:52 PM
Will anyone who enrolls in the new BS in Natural Sciences from this school, ahem, actually be able to use said degree to get into med school?

If the Natural Sciences degree program is a student retainer program that broadly pools the cupcake classes from the biology and chemistry program, in order to retain students who would otherwise flunk out of a traditional biology or chemistry program, then probably not. Those med schools want to see certain types of classes on the undergraduate transcript, and those are usually the non-cupcake courses (e.g. organic chemistry).

These marginal Henderson students will be four years into and out of the program before they start figuring out that they have been misled. And, it will be another 4-5 years before potential students realize that a BS in Natural Sciences is just a way to attract & retain marginal tuition-generating students who will ultimately go nowhere. So, there is an 8-10 year employment window for the faculty, staff, & administrators in the biology & chemistry areas. That's enough time for the remaining boomer employees to finish out their career.

This is the new reality for "hard" majors at places like Henderson.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Scout on March 15, 2023, 07:16:04 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 14, 2023, 10:08:52 PM
Will anyone who enrolls in the new BS in Natural Sciences from this school, ahem, actually be able to use said degree to get into med school?

If they meet medical school prereqs and admissions criteria, the specific major does not matter. I had friends who were premed who were art majors, French majors, psych majors etc. They needed to do well and complete the proper premed coursework. I don't know enough about this major to speak to it directly, but there is no reason a solid interdisciplinary science major can't prep students for med school and other health programs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on March 15, 2023, 08:03:59 AM
Quote from: Scout on March 15, 2023, 07:16:04 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 14, 2023, 10:08:52 PM
Will anyone who enrolls in the new BS in Natural Sciences from this school, ahem, actually be able to use said degree to get into med school?

If they meet medical school prereqs and admissions criteria, the specific major does not matter. I had friends who were premed who were art majors, French majors, psych majors etc. They needed to do well and complete the proper premed coursework. I don't know enough about this major to speak to it directly, but there is no reason a solid interdisciplinary science major can't prep students for med school and other health programs.

My sister was an anthropology major who worked for Teach For America after college. Then, a few science classes and MCAT prep, and she went to Harvard Medical School and is now a pediatrician.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on March 15, 2023, 08:10:32 AM
Quote from: Scout on March 15, 2023, 07:16:04 AM
If they meet medical school prereqs and admissions criteria, the specific major does not matter. I had friends who were premed who were art majors, French majors, psych majors etc. They needed to do well and complete the proper premed coursework. I don't know enough about this major to speak to it directly, but there is no reason a solid interdisciplinary science major can't prep students for med school and other health programs.

All true, and this is the reason why there is no such thing as a Pre-Med major.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on March 15, 2023, 08:23:01 AM
At my compass point institution, we are in the process of creating a similar BS in Natural Sciences. It will be the "bail out" major for students who can successfully complete most, but not all, of the courses for a full degree in either Biology or Chemistry. In Biology, our biggest upper level hurdle is Genetics. The combination of statistics and critical thinking skills needed to succeed in Genetics seems to be kryptonite to our students. They all leave Genetics until senior year, hence the need for the "bail out" alternative.
  My guess is that this new major has a similar function, with the goal of improving the overall degree completion rate.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on March 15, 2023, 08:42:23 AM
We used to have a bail-out natural sciences degree.  It was a disaster.

As Chemistry and Biology developed into full-fledged programs aligned with national standards, the NS program withered to a random assortment of gen-ed level semi-sciency courses that served no one. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 15, 2023, 12:41:15 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 15, 2023, 08:03:59 AM
Quote from: Scout on March 15, 2023, 07:16:04 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 14, 2023, 10:08:52 PM
Will anyone who enrolls in the new BS in Natural Sciences from this school, ahem, actually be able to use said degree to get into med school?

If they meet medical school prereqs and admissions criteria, the specific major does not matter. I had friends who were premed who were art majors, French majors, psych majors etc. They needed to do well and complete the proper premed coursework. I don't know enough about this major to speak to it directly, but there is no reason a solid interdisciplinary science major can't prep students for med school and other health programs.

My sister was an anthropology major who worked for Teach For America after college. Then, a few science classes and MCAT prep, and she went to Harvard Medical School and is now a pediatrician.

And your sister went to Henderson State, or a school just like it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on March 16, 2023, 11:30:00 AM
I get that kids need not major in any one specific thing in order to get into med school, obviously.   But there is a big diff between senior majoring in English whilst acing the required premed track, vs majoring in some dumbed-down 'natural science' major because he did not wish to expose himself to the harder things in a bio or chem major.  And this is much worse if said watered-down science major is a newly created obvious cash grab at a fifth rate state school. 

Academics should stridently resist the creation of these sorts of show-me-the-Benjamins programs that delude students, offer (usually) little hope of real professional employment, and further glut markets.  I recall the brouhaha several years back when a middling private uni in the Midwest, long in possession of a BA program in classics, and a MA geared for hs Latin teachers, decided to establish a PhD program.   They bought lots of books for the uni library related to this agenda, but otherwise more or less this was just a cash AND prestige grab, and the students they were going to sucker into enrolling in it were just not going to end up as college classics professors.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on March 16, 2023, 11:32:25 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 16, 2023, 11:30:00 AM
I get that kids need not major in any one specific thing in order to get into med school, obviously.   But there is a big diff between senior majoring in English whilst acing the required premed track, vs majoring in some dumbed-down 'natural science' major because he did not wish to expose himself to the harder things in a bio or chem major. 

That's a weird dichotomy to raise.  The English major wasn't exposed to the harder things in a bio or chem major either.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on March 16, 2023, 03:58:58 PM
I'd offer that an English major up to their neck in James Joyce, Don DeLillo and other assorted existentialist po-mo writers is not having an easier time than somebody in the hard sciences pre-med track.  Probably spends fewer clock hours in a classroom or a lab, but I don't think a solid education in the humanities is a whole lot easier than a solid education in the hard sciences.  The last honors course I taught had ~ 6 books.  Most of the professional track students took one look at the reading list and dropped the course immediately.  And from what Mrs Artem (BA in Latin) tells me, 6 books in a course ain't nuthin'.  Try a book a week for 15 weeks.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on March 16, 2023, 04:04:58 PM
I don't think an English major is easier at all. I do think without the more difficult chem courses (that are a sequence) they'd have a hard time getting admitted to med school.

Aside: a book a week (for 11 weeks) was standard for years in my undergraduate college's freshman course that ALL students were required to take.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 17, 2023, 02:53:10 AM
University of Holy Cross (LA).

The usual story: 50% decrease in FTE undergraduate enrollment since pre-2008 recession, persistent deficits on a $30 million operating budget except when it gets > $5 million in annual contributions or sells part of its endowment.

Like Henderson State, its students don't go to med school, regardless of major. Anyone capable of going to med school attends a different university.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 17, 2023, 07:42:25 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on March 16, 2023, 04:04:58 PM
I don't think an English major is easier at all. I do think without the more difficult chem courses (that are a sequence) they'd have a hard time getting admitted to med school.

Aside: a book a week (for 11 weeks) was standard for years in my undergraduate college's freshman course that ALL students were required to take.

That's quite a bit more assigned reading than any undergrad course I had to take.  I did have advanced courses where I had enough research work to probably require something like that overall for the semester.  Then I went to grad school and was reading 3-5 books per week in just one course.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on March 17, 2023, 08:21:18 AM
And the English major who aces those premed sequence courses can demonstrate that he has not only aced the premed courses (which will of course not include courses that would be necessary for professional biologists or chemists, but just for MDs), but also completed a hard, objective major that gives skills that would be very useful for any working doc to have, whereas the student who takes the watered-down semi-science major, well, not so much.  And it would be different if that 'natural science' major were at Harvard, but Henderson St ain't Harvard. 

One question, would this HSU 'natural sciences' major even be enough to get the alum certified to teach k12 sci in Arkansas schools?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Istiblennius on March 17, 2023, 08:28:25 AM
Someone upthread brought up an issue that is a huge one for our students - the sequencing of STEM classes.

For example, to get into Biochem you have to have the Ochem sequence, each of which requires a C to get into the next one, to get into Ochem you have to have to do the same with the Gen Chem sequence, to get into Gen Chem you have to take Algebra.

If you get even a little out of step with these sequences, it can slow you down by years.

From talking with my colleagues in some of our other disciplines, students do not face these prereq and sequencing challenges. Students also have far more choices with electives instead of proceeding lockstep through a bunch of requirements.

So I don't think the coursework itself is mentally harder, depending on the student interest and motivation, but the pathway is harder to navigate and has more opportunities to fall off and fewer opportunities to get back on. Some of the alternate STEM degrees I have seen are less a cash grab or dumbed down path but more of a flexible path that allows students more choice and different on and off ramps so that they still can earn a degree when they experience barriers in the path.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Langue_doc on March 17, 2023, 08:40:12 AM
The King's College in Manhattan

QuoteThe Second Life of a Christian College in Manhattan Nears Its End
The King's College, which draws students from around the country to Manhattan, has not been able to recover from enrollment and financial losses.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/17/nyregion/kings-college-manhattan-possible-closing.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on March 17, 2023, 08:43:34 AM
It doesn't mention whether the layoffs will be staff or faculty, but layoffs loom for Penn State.

"Penn State president Neeli Bendapudi is trying to balance the system's budget by 2025; last fiscal year it operated with a structural budget deficit of more than $125 million."

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2023/03/17/layoffs-loom-penn-state
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 17, 2023, 11:18:55 AM
IHE: After a Decade of Growth, Degree Earners Decline (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2023/03/17/undergrad-degree-completion-falls-first-time-decade)

Lower Deck:
Quote
The number of undergraduate degree earners fell last year for the first time since 2012. Is it a bump in the road or a harbinger of a changing higher ed landscape?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 17, 2023, 01:21:20 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 17, 2023, 08:21:18 AM
And the English major who aces those premed sequence courses can demonstrate that he has not only aced the premed courses (which will of course not include courses that would be necessary for professional biologists or chemists, but just for MDs), but also completed a hard, objective major that gives skills that would be very useful for any working doc to have, whereas the student who takes the watered-down semi-science major, well, not so much.  And it would be different if that 'natural science' major were at Harvard, but Henderson St ain't Harvard. 

One question, would this HSU 'natural sciences' major even be enough to get the alum certified to teach k12 sci in Arkansas schools?

I presume that the Bachelor of Science in Secondary Education degree is specifically for prospective teachers.  The natural sciences major is for students going into nursing, dental hygiene, etc.  And theoretically for pre-med students. although it is indeed true that HSU doesn't produce a lot of doctors.  There are lots of more modest STEM jobs that don't require an Ivy League-level of science education.  Henderson hasn't (yet) turned into a simple trade school.  It does seem to be turning into more of a garden-variety compass-point school.  The college and the new degrees may not be very impressive for those of us with R1 experience, but I don't believe it's fair to characterize them as worthless.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 17, 2023, 04:21:51 PM
Not strictly financial straits, since the college in question appears not to be actually desperate--Valparaiso University considers selling the family silver, in the form of artwork at the campus art museum, to pay for remodeling the freshman dorms:


https://www.nwitimes.com/news/valparaiso-university-community-clashes-over-sale-of-precious-artwork/article_1c10cc51-be92-5598-976b-4f9a54a1dcd0.html


Briefly, three paintings by Georgia O'Keefe, Frederick Church, and Childe Hassam, believed to be worth as much as $10 million, could be on the auction block if the school's President has his way.  Alumni, students, etc. are protesting.  The former museum director for whom the place is named says that if the sale goes through he wants his name removed.  Since the pieces were originally bought with money from the Sloan Trust there are questions as to whether the sale would even be legal. 

And assorted professional museum organizations are protesting the proposed sale of art to raise funds that will not be put back into the museum itself.  It's not hard to see why the museum community is aghast at the idea of an institution with an art collection treating it as a source of ready cash to fund construction or other wish-list items.  It would set a terrible precedent that other institutions run by Philistines would be sorely tempted to follow.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on March 17, 2023, 04:52:41 PM
If I were a faculty member there, that question would be very easy.
Quote from: apl68 on March 17, 2023, 04:21:51 PM
Not strictly financial straits, since the college in question appears not to be actually desperate--Valparaiso University considers selling the family silver, in the form of artwork at the campus art museum, to pay for remodeling the freshman dorms:


https://www.nwitimes.com/news/valparaiso-university-community-clashes-over-sale-of-precious-artwork/article_1c10cc51-be92-5598-976b-4f9a54a1dcd0.html


Briefly, three paintings by Georgia O'Keefe, Frederick Church, and Childe Hassam, believed to be worth as much as $10 million, could be on the auction block if the school's President has his way.  Alumni, students, etc. are protesting.  The former museum director for whom the place is named says that if the sale goes through he wants his name removed.  Since the pieces were originally bought with money from the Sloan Trust there are questions as to whether the sale would even be legal. 

And assorted professional museum organizations are protesting the proposed sale of art to raise funds that will not be put back into the museum itself.  It's not hard to see why the museum community is aghast at the idea of an institution with an art collection treating it as a source of ready cash to fund construction or other wish-list items.  It would set a terrible precedent that other institutions run by Philistines would be sorely tempted to follow.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on March 17, 2023, 05:11:52 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 17, 2023, 08:40:12 AM
The King's College in Manhattan

QuoteThe Second Life of a Christian College in Manhattan Nears Its End
The King's College, which draws students from around the country to Manhattan, has not been able to recover from enrollment and financial losses.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/17/nyregion/kings-college-manhattan-possible-closing.html

Their interim president, Stockwell Day, is a Canadian ex-politician who was central to a populist movement coming out of Alberta - the Reform Party.  Alberta is Canada's oil patch and back in the 1970's their motto was "Let those Eastern bastards freeze to death in the dark."  It ain't Texas, but the place is definitely Tex-ish.

You can think of him as Canada's Ted Cruz (who was also born in Alberta if memory serves).  His failed college to me means it could not happen to a nicer asshole.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on March 17, 2023, 05:25:07 PM
Now there's a name I haven't heard in decades. What a useless sack he was.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on March 17, 2023, 11:18:48 PM
I did not exactly say the HSU 'natural science' degree was worthless, but it is being oversold, and many of the students who will take it probably would not be able to succeed in a traditional science major, which suggests it is a cash cow scam.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on March 18, 2023, 09:10:29 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on March 16, 2023, 03:58:58 PM
I'd offer that an English major up to their neck in James Joyce, Don DeLillo and other assorted existentialist po-mo writers is not having an easier time than somebody in the hard sciences pre-med track.  Probably spends fewer clock hours in a classroom or a lab, but I don't think a solid education in the humanities is a whole lot easier than a solid education in the hard sciences.  The last honors course I taught had ~ 6 books.  Most of the professional track students took one look at the reading list and dropped the course immediately.  And from what Mrs Artem (BA in Latin) tells me, 6 books in a course ain't nuthin'.  Try a book a week for 15 weeks.

If this is a response to my comment, it is misplaced.  I am not a fan of the let's see whose major is "harder" approach.   I was merely pointing out the "senior majoring in English whilst acing the required premed track, vs majoring in some dumbed-down 'natural science' major" is comparing apples and oranges.   

A student who is "acing the required premed track" is a solid Med School applicant regardless of the major they choose.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on March 18, 2023, 01:59:26 PM
Quote from: FishProf on March 18, 2023, 09:10:29 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on March 16, 2023, 03:58:58 PM
I'd offer that an English major up to their neck in James Joyce, Don DeLillo and other assorted existentialist po-mo writers is not having an easier time than somebody in the hard sciences pre-med track.  Probably spends fewer clock hours in a classroom or a lab, but I don't think a solid education in the humanities is a whole lot easier than a solid education in the hard sciences.  The last honors course I taught had ~ 6 books.  Most of the professional track students took one look at the reading list and dropped the course immediately.  And from what Mrs Artem (BA in Latin) tells me, 6 books in a course ain't nuthin'.  Try a book a week for 15 weeks.

If this is a response to my comment, it is misplaced.  I am not a fan of the let's see whose major is "harder" approach.   I was merely pointing out the "senior majoring in English whilst acing the required premed track, vs majoring in some dumbed-down 'natural science' major" is comparing apples and oranges.   

A student who is "acing the required premed track" is a solid Med School applicant regardless of the major they choose.

Not directed at you fishprof.  Or at anyone in particular for that matter.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 18, 2023, 06:39:47 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 17, 2023, 04:21:51 PM
Not strictly financial straits, since the college in question appears not to be actually desperate--Valparaiso University considers selling the family silver, in the form of artwork at the campus art museum, to pay for remodeling the freshman dorms:


https://www.nwitimes.com/news/valparaiso-university-community-clashes-over-sale-of-precious-artwork/article_1c10cc51-be92-5598-976b-4f9a54a1dcd0.html


Briefly, three paintings by Georgia O'Keefe, Frederick Church, and Childe Hassam, believed to be worth as much as $10 million, could be on the auction block if the school's President has his way.  Alumni, students, etc. are protesting.  The former museum director for whom the place is named says that if the sale goes through he wants his name removed.  Since the pieces were originally bought with money from the Sloan Trust there are questions as to whether the sale would even be legal. 

And assorted professional museum organizations are protesting the proposed sale of art to raise funds that will not be put back into the museum itself.  It's not hard to see why the museum community is aghast at the idea of an institution with an art collection treating it as a source of ready cash to fund construction or other wish-list items.  It would set a terrible precedent that other institutions run by Philistines would be sorely tempted to follow.

...turning our colleges into trade schools...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 21, 2023, 03:00:30 AM
St. Francis College, NYC. Annual deficits of $7-$15 million on a budget of ~ $90 million for FYs 2018-2020. In 2021 it got almost $10 million in pandemic aid but still had a deficit. According to Inside Higher Ed, it just killed its entire Division 1 athletic program, which it should have done twenty years ago.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 21, 2023, 08:12:38 AM
Quote from: spork on March 21, 2023, 03:00:30 AM
St. Francis College, NYC. Annual deficits of $7-$15 million on a budget of ~ $90 million for FYs 2018-2020. In 2021 it got almost $10 million in pandemic aid but still had a deficit. According to Inside Higher Ed, it just killed its entire Division 1 athletic program, which it should have done twenty years ago.

And they sold some pricey real estate, too!  They must have an awfully deep hole that they're trying to dig out of.

Cutting their proud sports program is surely going to hurt recruiting.  But like spork said, the time to have done it was no doubt years ago, before things got this bad.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: permanent imposter on March 23, 2023, 09:47:57 PM
Anyone have an idea which Ohio university has stopped paying its employees? Yikes. https://www.reddit.com/r/Adjuncts/comments/11ypk5f/university_has_stopped_paying_its_employees/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/Adjuncts/comments/11ypk5f/university_has_stopped_paying_its_employees/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on March 24, 2023, 05:30:05 AM
Wow. That's past circling the drain. That's digging your nails into the urinal cake ...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: AmLitHist on March 24, 2023, 07:57:19 AM
Layoffs at Millikin University (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2023/03/24/millikin-university-lay-15-employees-close-vacancies?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=4d93e70316-DNU_2021_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-4d93e70316-233950369&mc_cid=4d93e70316&mc_eid=718d8eb68e) in Decatur, Illinois.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 24, 2023, 10:20:17 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on March 24, 2023, 07:57:19 AM
Layoffs at Millikin University (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2023/03/24/millikin-university-lay-15-employees-close-vacancies?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=4d93e70316-DNU_2021_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-4d93e70316-233950369&mc_cid=4d93e70316&mc_eid=718d8eb68e) in Decatur, Illinois.

They're laying off 15 people at a place with about two thousand students.  Not as drastic as some we've seen.  Unless perhaps this is only a planned first round.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on March 24, 2023, 01:36:17 PM
Quote from: permanent imposter on March 23, 2023, 09:47:57 PM
Anyone have an idea which Ohio university has stopped paying its employees? Yikes. https://www.reddit.com/r/Adjuncts/comments/11ypk5f/university_has_stopped_paying_its_employees/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/Adjuncts/comments/11ypk5f/university_has_stopped_paying_its_employees/)

Quote from: selecter on March 24, 2023, 05:30:05 AM
Wow. That's past circling the drain. That's digging your nails into the urinal cake ...


When the banks don't want to help them fix their cash flow problem, so they can make payroll, that's some deep s**t that they are in.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on March 25, 2023, 07:42:03 AM
Ohio's Prompt Pay Act states an employer is liable for six percent of an employee's claim in addition to liquidated damages when wages are unpaid for thirty days after the regularly scheduled pay date. If the percentage is less than $200, the employer will have to pay $200 rather than six percent of the unpaid claim.
https://herlawyer.com/can-i-sue-my-employer-for-paying-me-late-in-ohio/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 26, 2023, 10:14:10 AM
CHE: When It Comes to College Closures, the Sky Is Never Going to Fall (https://www.chronicle.com/article/when-it-comes-to-college-closures-the-sky-is-never-going-to-fall)

Quote
A handful of private nonprofit colleges will close each year, as they almost always do. But what has become a nearly annual round of ominous rumblings from pundits and zeitgeist-palpating media musings — including, occasionally, in The Chronicle — over whether this is, finally, the year that the feeblest canaries in the ostensibly treacherous coal mine that is 21-century American higher education gasp their last en masse seems ever more misguided to me.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on March 26, 2023, 11:17:29 AM
There will probably be continuing consolidation, and of course, some absolute closures. I wasn't aware that anyone was saying that all of academia would die,
but I think anyone away from, say, the top 50-100 colleges and universities could really be in serious trouble, especially if they don't have an endowment or a state system to save them and/or they are in an area that has historically been served by many such schools that are no longer needed (I am thinking of say, the tiny, mostly Catholic, colleges that once dotted Westchester County in New York.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sinenomine on March 26, 2023, 12:18:44 PM
Bay State College, in Massachusetts, lost their appeal to stay open.

https://www.neche.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Bay-State-College-statement-re-withdrawal-final-decision.pdf (https://www.neche.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Bay-State-College-statement-re-withdrawal-final-decision.pdf)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on March 26, 2023, 06:41:09 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 26, 2023, 11:17:29 AM
There will probably be continuing consolidation, and of course, some absolute closures. I wasn't aware that anyone was saying that all of academia would die,
but I think anyone away from, say, the top 50-100 colleges and universities could really be in serious trouble, especially if they don't have an endowment or a state system to save them and/or they are in an area that has historically been served by many such schools that are no longer needed (I am thinking of say, the tiny, mostly Catholic, colleges that once dotted Westchester County in New York.

There are whispers that another public university might be established in my state. Don't see how that's viable, unless you're converting empty strip malls or office parks.

Any news on which university can't pay its employees on time? My guess is Wilburforce.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 26, 2023, 08:10:00 PM
Quote from: Mobius on March 26, 2023, 06:41:09 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 26, 2023, 11:17:29 AM
There will probably be continuing consolidation, and of course, some absolute closures. I wasn't aware that anyone was saying that all of academia would die,
but I think anyone away from, say, the top 50-100 colleges and universities could really be in serious trouble, especially if they don't have an endowment or a state system to save them and/or they are in an area that has historically been served by many such schools that are no longer needed (I am thinking of say, the tiny, mostly Catholic, colleges that once dotted Westchester County in New York.

There are whispers that another public university might be established in my state. Don't see how that's viable, unless you're converting empty strip malls or office parks.

Any news on which university can't pay its employees on time? My guess is Wilburforce.

I have another guess, but I wonder if that was a troll...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on March 27, 2023, 07:54:02 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 26, 2023, 08:10:00 PM
Quote from: Mobius on March 26, 2023, 06:41:09 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 26, 2023, 11:17:29 AM
There will probably be continuing consolidation, and of course, some absolute closures. I wasn't aware that anyone was saying that all of academia would die,
but I think anyone away from, say, the top 50-100 colleges and universities could really be in serious trouble, especially if they don't have an endowment or a state system to save them and/or they are in an area that has historically been served by many such schools that are no longer needed (I am thinking of say, the tiny, mostly Catholic, colleges that once dotted Westchester County in New York.

There are whispers that another public university might be established in my state. Don't see how that's viable, unless you're converting empty strip malls or office parks.

Any news on which university can't pay its employees on time? My guess is Wilburforce.

I have another guess, but I wonder if that was a troll...

Nope. I always hear about the struggles Wilburforce has. I have another suspicion based on people who worked at this other place in the past.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Anselm on March 28, 2023, 10:08:11 AM
https://www.thegazette.com/higher-education/iowa-wesleyan-university-closing-after-181-years/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on March 28, 2023, 10:37:03 AM
Iowa Wesleyan's reported endowment in 2020 was $17.5 million. Oof.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 28, 2023, 10:39:05 AM
Quote from: Anselm on March 28, 2023, 10:08:11 AM
https://www.thegazette.com/higher-education/iowa-wesleyan-university-closing-after-181-years/

That's sad news.  This wasn't just a jumped-up trade school or a prep school that started calling itself a college sometime after World War II, either.  It had a long history as an institution of higher learning.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Anselm on March 28, 2023, 10:55:08 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 28, 2023, 10:39:05 AM
Quote from: Anselm on March 28, 2023, 10:08:11 AM
https://www.thegazette.com/higher-education/iowa-wesleyan-university-closing-after-181-years/

That's sad news.  This wasn't just a jumped-up trade school or a prep school that started calling itself a college sometime after World War II, either.  It had a long history as an institution of higher learning.

I knew this was coming and I believe the athletics budget is the biggest culprit.  I would have expected the local community to pony up some cash since they benefit from that school.  I wish the state would take it over.   I know I am dreaming but Iowa can use more than just three state universities.  Arkansas with less people has at least eight that I can name off of the top of my head.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 28, 2023, 11:18:32 AM
Quote from: Anselm on March 28, 2023, 10:08:11 AM
https://www.thegazette.com/higher-education/iowa-wesleyan-university-closing-after-181-years/

Christine Plunkett adds another line to her distinguished c.v.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on March 28, 2023, 04:48:18 PM
Does Iowa Wesleyan still have some denominational affiliation?  If it does, one would think said group might well help out?  I have taught at religiously affiliated schools, in two very different denoms, which both had very miniscule (less than IWU's) endowment, and both would surely die without the vast annual subsidies given to them by their churches.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 28, 2023, 05:02:11 PM
Quotevast annual subsidies given to them by their churches.

That can't be correct.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on March 28, 2023, 06:46:37 PM
Yes, it was.  Why do you say this?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Anselm on March 28, 2023, 07:00:20 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 28, 2023, 04:48:18 PM
Does Iowa Wesleyan still have some denominational affiliation?  If it does, one would think said group might well help out?  I have taught at religiously affiliated schools, in two very different denoms, which both had very miniscule (less than IWU's) endowment, and both would surely die without the vast annual subsidies given to them by their churches.

Yes, it is still affiliated with the UMC.  I attended an ELCA affiliated school and I was not aware of any money coming from the churches.   A congregation would offer some assistance to individual students whose families attended that church. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 28, 2023, 07:43:35 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 28, 2023, 05:02:11 PM
Quotevast annual subsidies given to them by their churches.

That can't be correct.

Quote from: kaysixteen on March 28, 2023, 06:46:37 PM
Yes, it was.  Why do you say this?

I remembered the strategy of the Catholic Church: Every ship floats on its own bottom. [Plus 10% handling for St. Peters in Rome.]

Apparently, there is an exception, Catholic University in DC. Lucky them.

Looking at Protestant denominations I came across this

https://www.churchlawandtax.com/cft/2014/august/how-churches-spend-their-money.html (https://www.churchlawandtax.com/cft/2014/august/how-churches-spend-their-money.html)

Nothing left over for gifts to colleges.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on March 28, 2023, 08:24:27 PM
The RCC was one of the denoms that ran the two schools I am thinking of.   It is probably true that most of the ecclesiastical financial underwriting there was likely private donors spurred on by the church, but the other school is owned by a conservative evangelical denom with maybe 2.5 million members.   The school's endowment was maybe 2-3 mill, but it received a 10 mill per an subsidy from the denom, and the denom runs probably five other schools.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on March 28, 2023, 08:27:56 PM
Neither the Methodists nor ELCA typically subsidize affiliated colleges. They do indeed rely on individuals and individual churches.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on March 29, 2023, 06:05:27 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 28, 2023, 05:02:11 PM
Quotevast annual subsidies given to them by their churches.

That can't be correct.

You'd be shocked at how much money the LDS Church spends operating three universities and a business college.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 29, 2023, 06:34:09 PM
Quote from: Mobius on March 29, 2023, 06:05:27 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 28, 2023, 05:02:11 PM
Quotevast annual subsidies given to them by their churches.

That can't be correct.

You'd be shocked at how much money the LDS Church spends operating three universities and a business college.

Special case. Hell, they even have their own State! They support all of four colleges directly. Not even the Catholic Church has its own state anymore. It just has Catholic University in DC.

Direct religious finance of higher ed as a share of total cost of higher ed is trivial.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: emera gratia on March 30, 2023, 11:49:10 AM
Using public educational dollars to fund a private waterpark is a choice, I guess, but unfortunately it means that things aren't looking good for Birmingham Southern: https://www.al.com/opinion/2023/03/guest-opinion-governor-chooses-waterpark-not-bsc-for-education-trust-fund-dollars.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 30, 2023, 12:27:28 PM
Quote from: emera gratia on March 30, 2023, 11:49:10 AM
Using public educational dollars to fund a private waterpark is a choice, I guess, but unfortunately it means that things aren't looking good for Birmingham Southern: https://www.al.com/opinion/2023/03/guest-opinion-governor-chooses-waterpark-not-bsc-for-education-trust-fund-dollars.html

I've always said we have the means to save our universities.  We just are not that interested.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 30, 2023, 01:24:32 PM
Quote from: emera gratia on March 30, 2023, 11:49:10 AM
Using public educational dollars to fund a private waterpark is a choice, I guess, but unfortunately it means that things aren't looking good for Birmingham Southern: https://www.al.com/opinion/2023/03/guest-opinion-governor-chooses-waterpark-not-bsc-for-education-trust-fund-dollars.html

This is reminiscent of the library who left millions of dollars to his college--who then used it to buy a new electronic scoreboard for their stadium.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 30, 2023, 01:48:27 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 30, 2023, 01:24:32 PM
Quote from: emera gratia on March 30, 2023, 11:49:10 AM
Using public educational dollars to fund a private waterpark is a choice, I guess, but unfortunately it means that things aren't looking good for Birmingham Southern: https://www.al.com/opinion/2023/03/guest-opinion-governor-chooses-waterpark-not-bsc-for-education-trust-fund-dollars.html

This is reminiscent of the library who left millions of dollars to his college--who then used it to buy a new electronic scoreboard for their stadium.

It always boils down to the same question: Who owns the money? That's what politics is about.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 02, 2023, 03:17:24 PM
Quest University, IMO the only reputable private university in Canada, is closing (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/squamish-quest-university-closing-1.6759492#:~:text=A%20private%20university%20in%20Squamish,on%20restructuring%20finances%20and%20operations.%22).

It's too bad, they seemed cool. But... 135 students isn't going to cut it, is it?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on April 02, 2023, 04:40:25 PM
It was a cool idea, and some other schools have taken on the "what is your question?" approach to majors/curriculum.
But Canadian don't have the private school tradition, and probably many Americans like the idea, but would rather go to a
similar place with more students and closer to home. Then of course there's the majority who think its way to hippy-dippy.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 03, 2023, 06:10:54 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 02, 2023, 04:40:25 PM
It was a cool idea, and some other schools have taken on the "what is your question?" approach to majors/curriculum.
But Canadian don't have the private school tradition, and probably many Americans like the idea, but would rather go to a
similar place with more students and closer to home. Then of course there's the majority who think its way to hippy-dippy.

Quote
Since 60 per cent of Quest students are U.S. citizens, they will have the option to attend "a number of U.S. universities with similar programs that will fully recognize Quest program credits," the ministry said.

There you go.

Quote
While Quest's website says the school has a capacity of 750 students, B.C.'s ministry of post-secondary education and future skills puts current enrolment at 135.

Operating at about 1/6 of capacity? Yeah, that's not sustainable.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on April 10, 2023, 06:36:43 PM
RIP Cardinal Stritch University

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2023/04/10/milwaukees-cardinal-stritch-university-shutting-down-operations/70101536007/


Their drop from '18 to '22 ... oh boy.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 11, 2023, 04:34:06 AM
Quote from: selecter on April 10, 2023, 06:36:43 PM
RIP Cardinal Stritch University

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2023/04/10/milwaukees-cardinal-stritch-university-shutting-down-operations/70101536007/


Their drop from '18 to '22 ... oh boy.

In the years around the 2008 recession, Cardinal Stritch had an undergraduate FTE of ~ 2,900. Undergrad FTE enrollment declined by 100 to 400 per year since 2010, down to 700 in 2021. People have been increasingly choosing not to attend Cardinal Stritch for over a decade. And it's been consistently running deficits as a result.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Trogdor on April 11, 2023, 03:35:21 PM
And yet the article describes everyone at the college as "shocked".

nobody should be shocked that a college whose enrollment has dropped ~80% in 15 years is closing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on April 11, 2023, 04:18:50 PM
Obviously, that's true. But did they know it had dropped like that? I didn't. In some ways this one hits close to home, as I used to work at a relatively nearby and somewhat related school (and I have friends at this one.) We looked UP to Stritch, and were jealous. As near as I can tell, it was absolutely business as usual at Stritch in the last six or seven months. Just drowning the way people drown. Super quietly.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on April 12, 2023, 05:24:18 AM
Quote from: selecter on April 11, 2023, 04:18:50 PM
Obviously, that's true. But did they know it had dropped like that?

It's hard to believe you'd miss that your classes had only 1/5 of the people they had just over a decade ago.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on April 12, 2023, 08:17:02 AM
If you taught gen ed english, you likely saw zero change. Ditto almost any freshman class. If you were an adjunct, you saw whatever you saw.

I'm not defending oblivion, and certainly not defending the administration, but I'm imagining a lot of folks really ARE shocked they closed. It's almost like, during the autopsy, folks would say there was no sign of a struggle.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Anselm on April 12, 2023, 09:51:29 AM
I attended a Catholic high school near Chicago.  I got tons of mail from Midwestern schools but never from Cardinal Stritch.  I never knew about them until I read about them here.  I knew people who went to Marquette, Loyola, Depaul, Notre Dame, St. Ambrose, etc.  So, maybe there were not doing enough marketing?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on April 12, 2023, 12:27:45 PM
I'd be surprised if my college closes next year, but in 5 years if current unsustainable trends sustain? I wouldn't be surprised. I am not at all surprised that we have trouble hiring. I am sure some candidates run the numbers and don't see a bright future even though we have some great students, faculty and staff.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 12, 2023, 06:31:20 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 12, 2023, 05:24:18 AM
Quote from: selecter on April 11, 2023, 04:18:50 PM
Obviously, that's true. But did they know it had dropped like that?

It's hard to believe you'd miss that your classes had only 1/5 of the people they had just over a decade ago.

It does sometimes amaze me how disassociated and clueless some people----even people who love their jobs----are from the realities of our imperiled school.  Leaving the job at the office is both good and bad.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on April 13, 2023, 05:38:07 AM
Right. Like boiling the frog. Both Stritch and Southern Vermont College (a closing I was MUCH closer too) just seemed to have tried to whistle past the graveyard. Most places TRY something, and at least wring their hands a little bit.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on April 13, 2023, 07:16:13 AM
I've always wondered how much of this kind of denial is the result of 2 intersecting issues. 

The first is that administrators tend not to be too forthcoming with the financial data of the university.  My uni has regular budget town halls that always have the theme of "keep moving, nothing to see here". 

On top of that, many faculty have little to no understanding of how multi-million dollar finance/budgets work.  I'm convinced that some faculty think the Dean or the President has a big envelope in their bottom desk drawer labeled "slush fund for when the faculty are causing problems".  i.e.  that there's ALWAYS more money if only the admin critters would spend it on the stuff WE think is important.

20-30 years of these things playing out and yup, people are actually shocked when dear old Alma Mater turns off the lights and locks the doors for the last time.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on April 13, 2023, 08:19:54 AM
I've always thought a dean ought to educate faculty a bit on exactly this sort of thing, as I've heard department chairs say things like, "I know for a fact that our department brings in 2.2M per year!," when in fact they are -500K annually, once expenses are figured.

Then I spent some time as dean, and did next to nothing to educate faculty along those lines.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 13, 2023, 09:04:57 AM
Quote from: selecter on April 13, 2023, 05:38:07 AM
Right. Like boiling the frog. Both Stritch and Southern Vermont College (a closing I was MUCH closer too) just seemed to have tried to whistle past the graveyard. Most places TRY something, and at least wring their hands a little bit.

It only works with lobotomized frogs. Uncut frogs jump.

Where that leaves the analogy, I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on April 13, 2023, 11:42:05 AM
Nice metaphor.


The nonlobotomized frogs have somewhere to jump to, I guess.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 17, 2023, 09:53:03 AM
Quote from: selecter on April 13, 2023, 05:38:07 AM
Right. Like boiling the frog. Both Stritch and Southern Vermont College (a closing I was MUCH closer too) just seemed to have tried to whistle past the graveyard. Most places TRY something, and at least wring their hands a little bit.

"Super Dinky College" seems to have done a lot of that in its later years as well.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: rhetoricae on April 17, 2023, 11:05:08 AM
Quote from: selecter on April 13, 2023, 08:19:54 AM
I've always thought a dean ought to educate faculty a bit on exactly this sort of thing, as I've heard department chairs say things like, "I know for a fact that our department brings in 2.2M per year!," when in fact they are -500K annually, once expenses are figured.

Then I spent some time as dean, and did next to nothing to educate faculty along those lines.

Our instutition has a Budget Advisory Council every fiscal year, as the budget is being figured out for the next year. A specific number (& roles) of faculty members are required to serve (in addition to adjunct-specific representation, various staff roles, members of student Senate, etc) every year. I've been on it for the last 2 years, for one reason or another, and it's extremely informative -- gives a lot of insight into how our multi-million dollar state funded CC's budget works, what it looks like, and what it entails. I've learned a lot & one of the roles of those on the council is to pass this information on to others in their sphere, answer questions, etc. -- all of which I do. (I'm just an Asst Prof in a faculty leadership role, for now, not a Dean or anyone's boss/chair.)

Even so, I've had conversations with faculty who have been here for 20+ years, have served on the budget advisory council multiple times (including recently) & who still seem to have no idea that there is a general fund budget, and then grant-based budgets, and when complaining about a new low-level admin-critter hire they don't understand how that person's role is specific to a grant, not part of the general fund budget pool for salaries, and will likely be gone once the grant ends -- so they complain that college funds are misspent.

As with students, sometimes educational opportunities alone aren't enough. :P
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 19, 2023, 02:16:24 AM
As reported by Inside Higher Ed, Marian University in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on April 19, 2023, 07:40:43 AM
The continuing saga of Birmingham-Southern. Just shows how important it is to have close audits of your books for financial aid.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/financial-health/2023/04/19/path-forward-birmingham-southern (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/financial-health/2023/04/19/path-forward-birmingham-southern)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 19, 2023, 07:57:50 AM
IHE: Marian University, Wisconsin (https://https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2023/04/19/marian-university-cut-jobs-programs)

IHE: Graduate Theological School, Georgia (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2023/04/19/graduate-theological-school-declares-financial-exigency)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 19, 2023, 10:31:25 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 19, 2023, 07:57:50 AM
IHE: Marian University, Wisconsin (https://https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2023/04/19/marian-university-cut-jobs-programs)

IHE: Graduate Theological School, Georgia (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2023/04/19/graduate-theological-school-declares-financial-exigency)

Well, at least in Marian's case it seems to be an attempt to head off a crisis rather than a sudden, desperate reaction to one.

They mention cutting majors that "students just aren't pursuing anymore," so I assume they're getting rid of most of their liberal arts majors.  But they're also eliminating majors in "homeland security" and "social justice," which sound rather trendy.  Those sound like attempted major programs that just didn't pan out in terms of enrollment.  Which is fair enough, I guess.  Not every attempt to start a new major program is going to succeed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on April 19, 2023, 02:09:45 PM
People in academia for two deacdes should really know the difference between general unrestricted accounts and restricted endowment or grant accounts. Not that hard. Also, faculty are the first to complain that they have inadequate help, then complain about administrative bloat when someone is hired.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on April 19, 2023, 03:26:35 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 19, 2023, 02:09:45 PM
People in academia for two deacdes should really know the difference between general unrestricted accounts and restricted endowment or grant accounts. Not that hard. Also, faculty are the first to complain that they have inadequate help, then complain about administrative bloat when someone is hired.

I've never heard a faculty member hope a new administrator is hired. I guess maybe they are in favor of Writing Centers or similar facilities, but again, I've never heard a faculty member wish there was more such support. The main complaint I have heard is that faculty wish that HR and the Wages dept were more helpful.

I've had helpful deans occasionally. Most other admins are a curse for faculty.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on April 19, 2023, 05:40:08 PM
There are a few of us who would like national searches for deans. We'd also like associate deans and chairs to not be in interim roles. We need leaders willing to make tough choices. Too many faculty want admins that "advocate" for their units, whatever that means. I truly think some faculty think a dean can get what the college needs if they just try hard enough.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 21, 2023, 08:13:30 AM
Fiddling around the edges of the curriculum is not going to save Marian. Its endowment is only ~ $12 million and it has lost a third of its FTE undergraduate enrollment since FY 2007. Its FTE grad enrollment decreased by two-thirds over the same period.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 21, 2023, 10:40:32 AM
Yet another liberal arts program gets eliminated due to declining student interest:

QuoteFrench major gets an au revoir at UALR

The University of Arkansas at Little Rock will eliminate its bachelor of arts degree in French -- and affiliated faculty members -- because of low student interest, following a recommendation by the chancellor and approval by the University of Arkansas System board of trustees Wednesday.

UALR Chancellor Christina Drale actually proposed to eliminate French in 2020 due to a "steep decline" in student interest and the trend of removing language requirements from most programs, but after campus review, she was persuaded to give French a reprieve to see if it could regain viability, she said. That didn't occur, and program enrollment has continued to decline.

Drale used the 2020 benchmark threshold of a full-time equivalent student to full-time equivalent faculty ratio of 12, and a student semester credit hours to full-time equivalent faculty ratio of 200. In 2019, the French program was at a "low" student-faculty ratio of 8-to-1 -- falling to 7-to-1 this year -- and the student semester credit hour ratio in 2019 was 123-to-1, while the ratio fell in fall 2022 to 108.5-to-1.

Eliminating the program "seems like a wise move to me," said trustee Sheffield Nelson of Little Rock.


More in the article about UALR's retrenchment since COVID:

https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2023/apr/20/french-gets-an-au-revoir-at-ualr/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 23, 2023, 07:16:39 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 21, 2023, 10:40:32 AM
QuoteFrench major gets an au revoir at UALR


Drale used the 2020 benchmark threshold of a full-time equivalent student to full-time equivalent faculty ratio of 12, and a student semester credit hours to full-time equivalent faculty ratio of 200. In 2019, the French program was at a "low" student-faculty ratio of 8-to-1 -- falling to 7-to-1 this year -- and the student semester credit hour ratio in 2019 was 123-to-1, while the ratio fell in fall 2022 to 108.5-to-1.

Eliminating the program "seems like a wise move to me," said trustee Sheffield Nelson of Little Rock.

Providing quantitative information in the absence of context is clearly a good way to persuade trustees.

I think French and German as foreign languages are really taking a hit in the US since a lot of people in those countries speak fluent English, and our non-anglophone economic and academic partners work in Spanish or Mandarin.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 23, 2023, 08:33:26 PM
Additional State Budget Decrease of $66 Million Will Hurt University System of Georgia Institutions (https://www.usg.edu/news/release/additional_state_budget_decrease_of_66_million_will_hurt_university_system_of_georgia_institutions)

Quote
The decision comes as 20 of the University System of Georgia (USG)'s 26 public colleges and universities are already set to receive less money next fiscal year under the state's funding formula due to enrollment declines. The budget impact on those 20 institutions under the funding formula means they already face a loss of $71.6 million in state funds for FY24.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 24, 2023, 08:29:19 AM
Quote from: Hibush on April 23, 2023, 07:16:39 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 21, 2023, 10:40:32 AM
QuoteFrench major gets an au revoir at UALR


Drale used the 2020 benchmark threshold of a full-time equivalent student to full-time equivalent faculty ratio of 12, and a student semester credit hours to full-time equivalent faculty ratio of 200. In 2019, the French program was at a "low" student-faculty ratio of 8-to-1 -- falling to 7-to-1 this year -- and the student semester credit hour ratio in 2019 was 123-to-1, while the ratio fell in fall 2022 to 108.5-to-1.

Eliminating the program "seems like a wise move to me," said trustee Sheffield Nelson of Little Rock.

Providing quantitative information in the absence of context is clearly a good way to persuade trustees.

I think French and German as foreign languages are really taking a hit in the US since a lot of people in those countries speak fluent English, and our non-anglophone economic and academic partners work in Spanish or Mandarin.

With the partial exception of Spanish, which is after all the native language of a now massive population within the U.S., the European languages all seem to have lost their cachet.  I think there's a widespread perception now that they're all just dead white-people stuff.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 24, 2023, 11:11:43 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 24, 2023, 08:29:19 AM
Quote from: Hibush on April 23, 2023, 07:16:39 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 21, 2023, 10:40:32 AM
QuoteFrench major gets an au revoir at UALR


Drale used the 2020 benchmark threshold of a full-time equivalent student to full-time equivalent faculty ratio of 12, and a student semester credit hours to full-time equivalent faculty ratio of 200. In 2019, the French program was at a "low" student-faculty ratio of 8-to-1 -- falling to 7-to-1 this year -- and the student semester credit hour ratio in 2019 was 123-to-1, while the ratio fell in fall 2022 to 108.5-to-1.

Eliminating the program "seems like a wise move to me," said trustee Sheffield Nelson of Little Rock.

Providing quantitative information in the absence of context is clearly a good way to persuade trustees.

I think French and German as foreign languages are really taking a hit in the US since a lot of people in those countries speak fluent English, and our non-anglophone economic and academic partners work in Spanish or Mandarin.

With the partial exception of Spanish, which is after all the native language of a now massive population within the U.S., the European languages all seem to have lost their cachet.  I think there's a widespread perception now that they're all just dead white-people stuff.

This is what happens when you have an employment focus for higher ed.  If you don't need French to get a job, why need French?  C'est la vie
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Stockmann on April 24, 2023, 12:09:26 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 24, 2023, 11:11:43 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 24, 2023, 08:29:19 AM
Quote from: Hibush on April 23, 2023, 07:16:39 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 21, 2023, 10:40:32 AM
QuoteFrench major gets an au revoir at UALR


Drale used the 2020 benchmark threshold of a full-time equivalent student to full-time equivalent faculty ratio of 12, and a student semester credit hours to full-time equivalent faculty ratio of 200. In 2019, the French program was at a "low" student-faculty ratio of 8-to-1 -- falling to 7-to-1 this year -- and the student semester credit hour ratio in 2019 was 123-to-1, while the ratio fell in fall 2022 to 108.5-to-1.

Eliminating the program "seems like a wise move to me," said trustee Sheffield Nelson of Little Rock.

Providing quantitative information in the absence of context is clearly a good way to persuade trustees.

I think French and German as foreign languages are really taking a hit in the US since a lot of people in those countries speak fluent English, and our non-anglophone economic and academic partners work in Spanish or Mandarin.

With the partial exception of Spanish, which is after all the native language of a now massive population within the U.S., the European languages all seem to have lost their cachet.  I think there's a widespread perception now that they're all just dead white-people stuff.

This is what happens when you have an employment focus for higher ed.  If you don't need French to get a job, why need French?  C'est la vie

In all fairness, the global importance of French has probably not been lower at least since Napoleon.
I don't know if French and German are suffering similar declines as majors, but German has a more promising future than French as a major world language.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on April 24, 2023, 01:28:53 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on April 24, 2023, 12:09:26 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 24, 2023, 11:11:43 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 24, 2023, 08:29:19 AM
Quote from: Hibush on April 23, 2023, 07:16:39 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 21, 2023, 10:40:32 AM
QuoteFrench major gets an au revoir at UALR


Drale used the 2020 benchmark threshold of a full-time equivalent student to full-time equivalent faculty ratio of 12, and a student semester credit hours to full-time equivalent faculty ratio of 200. In 2019, the French program was at a "low" student-faculty ratio of 8-to-1 -- falling to 7-to-1 this year -- and the student semester credit hour ratio in 2019 was 123-to-1, while the ratio fell in fall 2022 to 108.5-to-1.

Eliminating the program "seems like a wise move to me," said trustee Sheffield Nelson of Little Rock.

Providing quantitative information in the absence of context is clearly a good way to persuade trustees.

I think French and German as foreign languages are really taking a hit in the US since a lot of people in those countries speak fluent English, and our non-anglophone economic and academic partners work in Spanish or Mandarin.

With the partial exception of Spanish, which is after all the native language of a now massive population within the U.S., the European languages all seem to have lost their cachet.  I think there's a widespread perception now that they're all just dead white-people stuff.

This is what happens when you have an employment focus for higher ed.  If you don't need French to get a job, why need French?  C'est la vie

In all fairness, the global importance of French has probably not been lower at least since Napoleon.
I don't know if French and German are suffering similar declines as majors, but German has a more promising future than French as a major world language.

Strangely, these things seem to come in threes:

In the 19th century, post Napoleon, the English, French, German triad was useful -- English for commerce, French for diplomacy, and German for science. In the second half of the 20th century, all this got done in English, the single lingua franca.

In the 21st century, as has been pointed out, we have English, Spanish, and Mandarin. Which of these languages thrive and which decline depends upon the generation of new ideas and how many people already speak it. That sets up Spanish on a path of long-term decline, but it has a large  number of speakers so it would take a long time. It's safer to say that it won't become a lingua franca. That leaves a competition between the West, using English, and China, using Mandarin. I'm betting on the West. English will prevail as lingua franca.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Stockmann on April 24, 2023, 05:31:37 PM
I don't think Spanish will decline in the US for the foreseeable future, in fact it has yet to peak in terms of number of speakers. Globally, yes, and even population numbers don't help that much as a number of Spanish-speaking countries have below-replacement fertility rates, including Mexico and Spain. Aside from English, German is the only Western language that might gain any traction outside of where it is already the majority language or at least that of a substantial minority, in Europe at any rate.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on April 24, 2023, 06:06:14 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on April 24, 2023, 05:31:37 PM
Aside from English, German is the only Western language that might gain any traction outside of where it is already the majority language or at least that of a substantial minority, in Europe at any rate.

I'm very curious why you think German would gain traction? At least in my field, even the Germans don't use German for science-- they mainly publish, give talks, and even teach in English. And if from what a gleaned from a quick search, it appears there are more French than German speakers worldwide (thanks to colonialism largely).

A bit of anacdata from a recent conference trip to Belgium, a country with very interesting language politics -- over dinner with some of the Belgian scientists, who were all the Dutch (i.e., Flemish) areas, they explained that the Dutch schools require a second language and nearly all the Dutch speakers pick English as their second language to study in school, not French, or the official 3rd language of Belgium, German. The French schools do not require a second language for some reason, and the French speaking regions are falling behind economically. Almost no one speaks German outside the small region that Germany was forced to give Belgium in reparations (hence the official 3rd language). Of course, this is the Flemish perspective, but it is clear English is ascendant.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on April 24, 2023, 06:38:40 PM
Same in economics, and has been for a long, long time.

In Sweden, everybody is taught English. In the Netherlands, English is now the second official language!

In the early 20th century Swedish economics, which remains great, was written in or first translated into German. It's been English since the middle of the 20th
century.

The French government does not require a second language of pupils so that the French language has less competition!:-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on April 24, 2023, 07:00:51 PM
As long as Chinese writing remains what it is, it is nigh onto impossible to imagine its ever becoming a lingua franca.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on April 24, 2023, 07:26:07 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on April 24, 2023, 07:00:51 PM
As long as Chinese writing remains what it is, it is nigh onto impossible to imagine its ever becoming a lingua franca.

No worries! "Pinyin is a system where writers would type out the transliteration of the Chinese word using our familiar Roman letters on a QWERTY keyboard."

That's from the internet, but I've heard of this long before. I've also heard that Cantonese is a lingua franca at Caltech!

Difficulty matters, of course, as does size of population using the language, but the clincher determining growth is changes in usefulness. If many innovations are made in a certain language, it will become more desirable to learn that language. And, of course, once a large share of the world population speaks a certain language, it will be more likely that innovations will first be expressed in that language.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 25, 2023, 08:42:04 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on April 24, 2023, 07:00:51 PM
As long as Chinese writing remains what it is, it is nigh onto impossible to imagine its ever becoming a lingua franca.

Go to Southeast Asia. Spoken is different from written.

And yes, I know there are multiple Chinese languages.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on April 25, 2023, 09:12:38 AM
Many different Chinese dialects and they don't all use the the Chinese characters the same way. Mandarin is to Roman Italian what all the other dialects are to Venetian, Ligurian, etc.

The question is, how many Chinese people learn English? And how many people outside of China learn English?

Mandarin is the world's most widely spoken first language, followed by Spanish. English is the most widely spoken language as a first or second. (I read this a few years ago an am too lazy to fact check myself.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on April 25, 2023, 09:27:55 AM
I work with many Chinese- including Mainland, Taiwanese, and Chinese American raised. All will tell you that English has a flexibility and ability to create new vocabulary that Mandarin and Cantonese do not. The example my friends use is the term estuary or river delta. In Mandarin you would have to write out- the place where the river meets the sea. And the set Mandarin vocabulary (tones) do NOT do well with 21st century concepts, tech terms, and abstract ideas. This is why they adopt so many English technical terms.
   So while I'm sure lots of people will still speak Mandarin, it will not be the language of international business and ideas because of how it is structurally limited.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 25, 2023, 10:28:45 AM
To get this thread back on track, no foreign language program is going to help a small financially struggling college survive, because language instruction in the USA is designed to make students hate trying to learn other languages. No high school graduate chooses a college because of its gen ed 101/102 first year language requirement.

Some students at Holy Names U. (Oakland), which is closing next month, are transferring to Dominican U. of California (San Rafael).  The latter has about 9,000 students, but has posted annual deficits since 2018, including a loss of $6 million in FY 2021, the most recent year for which data is available.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 25, 2023, 10:37:55 AM
Quote from: spork on April 25, 2023, 10:28:45 AM
To get this thread back on track, no foreign language program is going to help a small financially struggling college survive, because language instruction in the USA is designed to make students hate trying to learn other languages. No high school graduate chooses a college because of its gen ed 101/102 first year language requirement.

Some students at Holy Names U. (Oakland), which is closing next month, are transferring to Dominican U. of California (San Rafael).  The latter has about 9,000 students, but has posted annual deficits since 2018, including a loss of $6 million in FY 2021, the most recent year for which data is available.

To the extent that niche language programs do help some schools, it's not an area with growth potential.  The number of students a school has majoring in a given language isn't likely to go up.  In a best-case scenario it might stay about the same, and the school will have to look elsewhere to try to increase its enrollment.

Alma Mater still offers several languages, though not as much as what the modern languages department offered at its peak when my mother taught there.  I hope they at least find it worth their while to keep offering them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Stockmann on April 25, 2023, 12:41:59 PM
Quote from: Puget on April 24, 2023, 06:06:14 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on April 24, 2023, 05:31:37 PM
Aside from English, German is the only Western language that might gain any traction outside of where it is already the majority language or at least that of a substantial minority, in Europe at any rate.

I'm very curious why you think German would gain traction? At least in my field, even the Germans don't use German for science-- they mainly publish, give talks, and even teach in English. And if from what a gleaned from a quick search, it appears there are more French than German speakers worldwide (thanks to colonialism largely).

A bit of anacdata from a recent conference trip to Belgium, a country with very interesting language politics -- over dinner with some of the Belgian scientists, who were all the Dutch (i.e., Flemish) areas, they explained that the Dutch schools require a second language and nearly all the Dutch speakers pick English as their second language to study in school, not French, or the official 3rd language of Belgium, German. The French schools do not require a second language for some reason, and the French speaking regions are falling behind economically. Almost no one speaks German outside the small region that Germany was forced to give Belgium in reparations (hence the official 3rd language). Of course, this is the Flemish perspective, but it is clear English is ascendant.

I should've written additional traction - English will remain the dominant Western language but there's not actually much room for expansion for it, it's already the second language of choice in every Western country where it's not the primary language, ahead of other national languages. Among Western languages, I think German will increase in importance, primarily at the expense of French - French has more speakers, but the German-speaking world is Europe's economic powerhouse, and outside of Europe (incl. overseas Departments of France) and Quebec, the French-speaking world is basically destitute - excluding Europe and North America, the French-speaking world is poorer than the Spanish-speaking world, for example.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 25, 2023, 12:52:24 PM
The University of Arkansas partnership with the University of Phoenix has been voted down by UA's Board of Trustees.  The UA President could technically go ahead without the Board's okay, but seems reluctant to do so.


https://www.5newsonline.com/article/news/local/ua-system-board-votes-against-university-of-phoenix-deal/527-43ad4a82-adcf-4d31-8e84-670853950260


In fuller reports I've seen (behind paywalls), there's a bit about Phoenix's past problems, and a lot about how this is supposedly just what UA needs.  We forget that most of the general public doesn't know, or has already forgotten, what most academics know about Phoenix's crooked and sleazy history.  When they hear about promises to bring in $20 million in new taxpayer-free revenue to UA, and augment UA's online education offerings--everybody knows that online education and computers and stuff is where it's at today, right?--jumping at this offer could easily sound like a no-brainer.  Fortunately a slim majority of the Board apparently realized that the whole complicated set of deals involving Phoenix didn't pass the smell test.  I really, really hope that the deal will end up being off for good, and that some other college (or ideally, none at all) will snap up this supposed deal of a lifetime.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on April 25, 2023, 01:44:30 PM
Quote from: apl68 on April 25, 2023, 12:52:24 PM
The University of Arkansas partnership with the University of Phoenix has been voted down by UA's Board of Trustees.  The UA President could technically go ahead without the Board's okay, but seems reluctant to do so.


https://www.5newsonline.com/article/news/local/ua-system-board-votes-against-university-of-phoenix-deal/527-43ad4a82-adcf-4d31-8e84-670853950260


In fuller reports I've seen (behind paywalls), there's a bit about Phoenix's past problems, and a lot about how this is supposedly just what UA needs.  We forget that most of the general public doesn't know, or has already forgotten, what most academics know about Phoenix's crooked and sleazy history.  When they hear about promises to bring in $20 million in new taxpayer-free revenue to UA, and augment UA's online education offerings--everybody knows that online education and computers and stuff is where it's at today, right?--jumping at this offer could easily sound like a no-brainer.  Fortunately a slim majority of the Board apparently realized that the whole complicated set of deals involving Phoenix didn't pass the smell test.  I really, really hope that the deal will end up being off for good, and that some other college (or ideally, none at all) will snap up this supposed deal of a lifetime.

Some posters might be surprised to learn that many so called non-profit universities operate divisions or programs that are intended to make a profit, and do make profits, big profits. Harvard on-line is a prime example, but I know of others.

It's difficult to figure out from the link what is going on here. There's a link inside the link

https://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article/144181/ua-system-board-votes-against-university-of-phoenix-deal?utm_source=enews_042423&utm_medium=email&utm_content=breaking-news&utm_campaign=newsletter&enews_zone=3815&oly_enc_id=4913H7594489J8I
(https://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article/144181/ua-system-board-votes-against-university-of-phoenix-deal?utm_source=enews_042423&utm_medium=email&utm_content=breaking-news&utm_campaign=newsletter&enews_zone=3815&oly_enc_id=4913H7594489J8I)
that has more information, but still leaves one breathing heavily.

Looks like the idea is for UA to buy Phoenix, via a holding company, financed by borrowing, in order to acquire an income stream -- Phoenix's profits.

One of the objections of the board seem misplaced -- the reputation  of Phoenix is irrelevant. Change the name to UA, and have UA run it. That would be a normal corporate takeover!

Another objection is that UA's holding company cannot control the Phoenix board. Hell, kick out the board and appoint your own! I don't know why that couldn't be done.

I don't like opacity to lure students, but Harvard does it. So why not UA?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on April 26, 2023, 02:49:33 AM
St. Augustine College in Chicago is no more. It is merging with Lewis University. St. Augustine has been running deficits since 2013 and its liabilities exceed its assets; i.e., it went bankrupt. Its enrollment fell by more than 50 percent over the same period.

Interestingly SAC was started in 1980, so it lost money for at least 25 percent of the time it existed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 26, 2023, 06:26:59 AM
That was a startlingly recent date for foundation of a college.  A quick check finds that St. Augustine was founded specifically to serve a bilingual (Spanish-English) student population.  Which sounds like a worthwhile niche, given the nation's huge bilingual population.  Evidently it wasn't a sufficiently lucrative niche.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on April 26, 2023, 12:19:57 PM
St. Augustine is (was) in my old hood, near my own Super Dinky, which was an HSA. So, we had some overlap. St. Augustine, even in its neighborhood, had virtually zero footprint.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 27, 2023, 09:37:57 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 26, 2023, 06:26:59 AM
That was a startlingly recent date for foundation of a college.  A quick check finds that St. Augustine was founded specifically to serve a bilingual (Spanish-English) student population.  Which sounds like a worthwhile niche, given the nation's huge bilingual population.  Evidently it wasn't a sufficiently lucrative niche.
We see institutions take on the laudable mission of educating a population that cannot pay the tuition. Those institutions need to have an independent source of the same amount of revenue, but that source is rarely forthcoming. The community colleges are the best place at the moment, if the community they support is prepared to provide that funding.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on April 29, 2023, 07:58:15 AM
Can't link to it due to a paywall, but there was a report this morning that the University of Arkansas has approved a new Italian language major.  Apparently there's a real demand for that one.  While it doesn't exactly replace the cancelled French major at UALR discussed above, it does indicate that the study of European languages at American colleges may not be as doomed as we'd thought.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Antiphon1 on April 29, 2023, 10:14:51 PM
Quote from: apl68 on April 29, 2023, 07:58:15 AM
Can't link to it due to a paywall, but there was a report this morning that the University of Arkansas has approved a new Italian language major.  Apparently there's a real demand for that one.  While it doesn't exactly replace the cancelled French major at UALR discussed above, it does indicate that the study of European languages at American colleges may not be as doomed as we'd thought.

The board also voted against buying the University of Phoenix last week.  I don't know what these actions mean, but I am heartened.  Perhaps we are refocusing our resources on nurturing existing programs rather than chasing the next new thing.  Maybe we don't need to ride the elephant every time the circus comes to town.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on April 30, 2023, 10:33:10 AM
Quote from: Antiphon1 link=topic=22.msg127307#msg127307The board also voted against buying the University of Phoenix last week.  I don't know what these actions mean, but I am heartened.  Perhaps we are refocusing our resources on nurturing existing programs rather than chasing the next new thing.  Maybe we don't need to ride the elephant every time the circus comes to town.
I like the image of the trustees of some school on the back of the escaped elephant that is the University of Phoenix. Not fiscally prudent. Headed straight for the straits.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: rth253 on May 01, 2023, 12:52:18 AM
Massive budget cuts and faculty cuts proposed in the Connecticut State College and University system (which doesn't include UConn). Enrollment has dropped 36% since 2019.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/government/state-policy/2023/05/01/connecticut-state-system-warns-devastating-cuts?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=b5e38db462-DNU_2021_COPY_03&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-b5e38db462-237076253&mc_cid=b5e38db462&mc_eid=978db0a71d
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 01, 2023, 06:19:20 AM
Quote from: rth253 on May 01, 2023, 12:52:18 AM
Massive budget cuts and faculty cuts proposed in the Connecticut State College and University system (which doesn't include UConn). Enrollment has dropped 36% since 2019.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/government/state-policy/2023/05/01/connecticut-state-system-warns-devastating-cuts?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=b5e38db462-DNU_2021_COPY_03&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-b5e38db462-237076253&mc_cid=b5e38db462&mc_eid=978db0a71d

This has been long in the making:

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/connecticut-tax-inequality-cities/532623/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/connecticut-tax-inequality-cities/532623/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on May 01, 2023, 08:44:03 AM
This is one where I miss Prytania. She would have had lots to say about the situation.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 01, 2023, 11:42:54 AM
Tulane (enrollment 14,000) is buying a giant hospital  (https://www.chronicle.com/article/one-of-americas-oldest-hospitals-lay-abandoned-then-a-university-stepped-in)that has stood vacant since it was damaged by hurricane Katrina 18 years ago. They will invest $135 million in fixing it up. Desperation move or wise investment in the future?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 01, 2023, 11:45:44 AM
As we maintain our cottage here at The Fora, this perspective may be relevant.

Quote from: Chronicle of Higher EducationThe question of how many small colleges will close has become something of a cottage industry over the past decade, and the intensity and frequency of these predictions only increased during the pandemic. But as Chronicle reporter Lee Gardner recently pointed out, a catastrophic die-off of small colleges has been predicted for well over a decade, and has not come to pass.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 01, 2023, 02:12:45 PM
I wonder how many have gone out of business so far?  And how many show clear signs of being in existential trouble?  The number is surely not small.  Though surely not close to the figures we've seen suggesting that something like a fifth/quarter/third/half are on their way out.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on May 01, 2023, 04:59:55 PM
What is the likelihood that many of these finacially flailing private schools will be absorbed by their states and made into publics?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 01, 2023, 05:45:41 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 01, 2023, 04:59:55 PM
What is the likelihood that many of these finacially flailing private schools will be absorbed by their states and made into publics?
My initial guess is zero. What would the conditions be that make that attractive? A lot of the publics have excess infrastructure at the moment, so it would have to be one that is expanding in the same area. It would also be in a state that values public education a lot. Is there a flailing private campus near Fayetteville that could be a candidate?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on May 02, 2023, 07:16:17 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 01, 2023, 11:42:54 AM
Tulane (enrollment 14,000) is buying a giant hospital  (https://www.chronicle.com/article/one-of-americas-oldest-hospitals-lay-abandoned-then-a-university-stepped-in)that has stood vacant since it was damaged by hurricane Katrina 18 years ago. They will invest $135 million in fixing it up. Desperation move or wise investment in the future?

I wish them luck but historically, teaching hospitals that serve high need, low resource communities are a hole in the ocean to pour money into.  Maybe if their medical faculty can attract a bazillion dollars a year in research grants it could pay off, but I suspect this will end in tears.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 02, 2023, 07:47:46 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on May 02, 2023, 07:16:17 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 01, 2023, 11:42:54 AM
Tulane (enrollment 14,000) is buying a giant hospital  (https://www.chronicle.com/article/one-of-americas-oldest-hospitals-lay-abandoned-then-a-university-stepped-in)that has stood vacant since it was damaged by hurricane Katrina 18 years ago. They will invest $135 million in fixing it up. Desperation move or wise investment in the future?

I wish them luck but historically, teaching hospitals that serve high need, low resource communities are a hole in the ocean to pour money into.  Maybe if their medical faculty can attract a bazillion dollars a year in research grants it could pay off, but I suspect this will end in tears.

I suspect HCA is somehow involved in the purchase and that both it and Tulane expect the deal to generate profits.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 02, 2023, 09:18:44 AM
Quote
The mixed-use building will also house apartments and retail space, as well as the Tulane Innovation Institute, a center designed to turn university-funded research into products faster. Beyond its investment in Charity, Tulane will spend another $465 million expanding its presence in the surrounding downtown biomedical corridor, with the hope of revitalizing the area as a hub of bioscience research.

At a time of public questioning about the contributions colleges make to their communities, Tulane's latest investment demonstrates how deeply the fates of higher-education institutions and the cities they inhabit are intertwined. When urban campuses swallow city blocks and residents are displaced, the projects often breed resentment. Tulane's plans, though, have been welcomed because the hospital and its immediate surroundings have been abandoned in a section of downtown that's become an eyesore and a constant reminder of Katrina.

Back in the days of Polly_Mere, she would consistently opine that universities should become 'part of the community' to stave off extinction.  She was never clear what she meant, but it certainly seems like this is what Tulane is trying to do.  Hope it works.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Anselm on May 02, 2023, 10:54:45 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 02, 2023, 09:18:44 AM
Quote
The mixed-use building will also house apartments and retail space, as well as the Tulane Innovation Institute, a center designed to turn university-funded research into products faster. Beyond its investment in Charity, Tulane will spend another $465 million expanding its presence in the surrounding downtown biomedical corridor, with the hope of revitalizing the area as a hub of bioscience research.

At a time of public questioning about the contributions colleges make to their communities, Tulane's latest investment demonstrates how deeply the fates of higher-education institutions and the cities they inhabit are intertwined. When urban campuses swallow city blocks and residents are displaced, the projects often breed resentment. Tulane's plans, though, have been welcomed because the hospital and its immediate surroundings have been abandoned in a section of downtown that's become an eyesore and a constant reminder of Katrina.

Back in the days of Polly_Mere, she would consistently opine that universities should become 'part of the community' to stave off extinction.  She was never clear what she meant, but it certainly seems like this is what Tulane is trying to do.  Hope it works.

Maybe unrelated, maybe I am reaching too far with this, but my alma mater began talking about the "college bubble" whereby students lived in their own separate world with little interaction with the local community.  This was back in 2007 when I worked there for one year.  I thought this to be strange since I was too busy as a student to have any community interactions aside from trips to local businesses.   Also, isn't this the case with every school?  Students hang out with other students and do normal student activities.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on May 02, 2023, 12:36:30 PM
Its pretty typical, though  with regional colleges, more of the population may be from the college town or very near by.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on May 02, 2023, 12:53:21 PM
During the Katrina rebuild, I know that Tulane made a HUGE effort to involve their students in rebuilding the community. To the point that it dictated some of their admissions criteria. If this is part of that, I wish them luck. I rather think it's a small part community building and a larger part of an easy and cheap(er) way to expand the physical footprint. Tulane already has a medical school/med research facilities, so they should not be looking for lots more research indirect from this.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on May 02, 2023, 12:56:15 PM
I just checked the map. Charity hospital is in-between the LSU med center and the Tulane Med center. My money is now squarely on land grab/ outbidding LSU.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 02, 2023, 02:04:12 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on May 02, 2023, 12:56:15 PM
I just checked the map. Charity hospital is in-between the LSU med center and the Tulane Med center. My money is now squarely on land grab/ outbidding LSU.

Hence my comment about HCA.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on May 02, 2023, 08:59:43 PM
Ok, but seeing as many of these colleges are one of the main, if not the only real, economic engine in the communities in which they are located, communities which would take it one the chin if Super Dinky Jr went belly-up, wouldn't this present a real challenge for local politicians to seek to publicize these schools?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 03, 2023, 07:05:28 AM
IHE: Slimming Down to Stay Afloat (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/cost-cutting/2023/05/03/slimming-down-stay-afloat)

Quote
Projecting an enrollment nosedive, West Virginia University is preparing for a lean future. Some call it an act of surrender, while others say it's a prudent choice to be replicated elsewhere.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 03, 2023, 08:23:18 AM
Quote from: spork on May 02, 2023, 02:04:12 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on May 02, 2023, 12:56:15 PM
I just checked the map. Charity hospital is in-between the LSU med center and the Tulane Med center. My money is now squarely on land grab/ outbidding LSU.

Hence my comment about HCA.

Looking deeper, it does appear that this is not related to undergrad education but medical education and delivery. They hope to increase Tulane's clinical and research income, not tuition dollars. So the financial and enterprise elements are really different from PUIs. Like HCA being involved.

Is New Orleans a reasonable place to make this bet? Like many small towns in the Northeast, New Orleans has lost a lot of population. Depopulation is an underlying stressor. That element might be the same.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 03, 2023, 10:46:33 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 02, 2023, 08:59:43 PM
Ok, but seeing as many of these colleges are one of the main, if not the only real, economic engine in the communities in which they are located, communities which would take it one the chin if Super Dinky Jr went belly-up, wouldn't this present a real challenge for local politicians to seek to publicize these schools?

I can see some state representatives wanting to try something like this with failing private colleges in their districts.  However, a legislature's first priority would be to save endangered public colleges, and as was noted above many states now have quite a bit of excess state college capacity.  If they're having trouble saving the institutions that the state already owns, they're probably not going to have much attention to spare for their region's failing private schools. 

What you're suggesting isn't unprecedented.  There are state colleges that started out as private foundations.  Henderson State University in Arkansas started as a private Methodist school that was acquired by the state.  But that happened in a day when circumstances and possibilities were very different than what we see in this age of widespread demographic decline.  Maybe in some cases a state university system can find some assets to cherry-pick and salvage from local failing private colleges.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on May 03, 2023, 11:28:21 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 02, 2023, 08:59:43 PM
Ok, but seeing as many of these colleges are one of the main, if not the only real, economic engine in the communities in which they are located, communities which would take it one the chin if Super Dinky Jr went belly-up, wouldn't this present a real challenge for local politicians to seek to publicize these schools?

Don't have a link, but there was a recent WaPo article about how a number of small private colleges in rural areas are being propped up by the Department of Agriculture.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on May 03, 2023, 12:26:10 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 03, 2023, 11:28:21 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 02, 2023, 08:59:43 PM
Ok, but seeing as many of these colleges are one of the main, if not the only real, economic engine in the communities in which they are located, communities which would take it one the chin if Super Dinky Jr went belly-up, wouldn't this present a real challenge for local politicians to seek to publicize these schools?

Don't have a link, but there was a recent WaPo article about how a number of small private colleges in rural areas are being propped up by the Department of Agriculture.

Always be friends with the Department of Agriculture! We got the love, and they got the cash.

Here's the substance

QuoteThe USDA has been loaning tens of millions of dollars to rural colleges and universities, some of which couldn't get financing from conventional lenders or whose budgets are so precarious that the Education Department has placed them under additional financial scrutiny.

This support, through a program set up to promote rural economic development and from the federal agency that works the most with rural places, underscores how important local universities and colleges are to those communities — and the vulnerability of a growing number of them.

from here https://givingcompass.org/article/department-of-agriculture-loans-rural-colleges-millions (https://givingcompass.org/article/department-of-agriculture-loans-rural-colleges-millions)

Here's an older IHE article that provides more detail on the program

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/01/02/under-radar-usda-lending-provides-big-boost-financially-pressed-colleges (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/01/02/under-radar-usda-lending-provides-big-boost-financially-pressed-colleges)

The article uses Iowa Wesleyan as an example. That is probably unfortunate.

Note these are loans. The day of reckoning is merely being postponed, unless of course you get a political coalition of the educational establishment with farming organizations [which worked for food stamps, which I like].

Get the woke onto the farms, sorta like Mao! :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 06, 2023, 02:44:58 AM
Quote from: dismalist on May 03, 2023, 12:26:10 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 03, 2023, 11:28:21 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 02, 2023, 08:59:43 PM
Ok, but seeing as many of these colleges are one of the main, if not the only real, economic engine in the communities in which they are located, communities which would take it one the chin if Super Dinky Jr went belly-up, wouldn't this present a real challenge for local politicians to seek to publicize these schools?

... a recent WaPo article about how a number of small private colleges in rural areas are being propped up by the Department of Agriculture.
QuoteThe USDA has been loaning tens of millions of dollars to rural colleges and universities, some of which couldn't get financing from conventional lenders or whose budgets are so precarious that the Education Department has placed them under additional financial scrutiny.

This support, through a program set up to promote rural economic development and from the federal agency that works the most with rural places, underscores how important local universities and colleges are to those communities — and the vulnerability of a growing number of them.

This program is run by the rural-development part of USDA, so the express purpose is to maintain rural life. Depopulation of rural areas has been ongoing since soon after the USDAs founding during the Civil War, so that department has been charged with keeping rural life economically viable. That is getting a lot harder these days when farming requires so few people. Especially farms in the style of Iowa's, where two people can reasonably farm eight or ten square miles. How do you maintain community with that population density?

I see the propping up of non-viable rural colleges in the context of corn subsidies, especially for Iowa. A lot of USDA programs are built or co-opted to subsidize that sliver of agriculture. (Ethanol for fuel is one of the most blatant.) In corn country, they want colleges, hospitals and other critical parts of society, but don't have the population to make them economically viable. They often don't have a landscape or other features to draw people to move there. So society is called upon to keep this structure going. I think it is ok for rural area to depopulate, just as it is for remote mining towns after the mine closes. Super expensive to maintain for purely sentimenal reasons.

There is quite a bit of discussion in the national political parties about reducing the influence of the Iowa caucuses at the start of the primary season. That position has given the state disproportionate polititcal clout. E.g. the three-term USDA Secretary is the former governor of Iowa. Will there be fewer subsidies to prop up corn producers and associated rural infrastructure? Will South Carolina and Nevada's rural needs take precedence? Do those states value colleges in the depopulating counties?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on May 10, 2023, 03:48:06 PM
Iowa only has three public universities and 15 community colleges. Wyoming has eight community colleges. Striking difference between the two states, as Wyoming's population is about less than a fifth the size of Iowa's.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on May 10, 2023, 06:37:54 PM
Quote from: Mobius on May 10, 2023, 03:48:06 PM
Iowa only has three public universities and 15 community colleges. Wyoming has One Public University and eight community colleges. Striking difference between the two states, as Wyoming's population is about less than a fifth the size of Iowa's.

Fixed that for you...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2023, 07:45:20 PM
Found this interesting and, of course, a little disheartening.  At the same time, a lot of these colleges are seeing upticks in enrollment, sometimes 10% or more, as many more are seeing modest to more pronounced downturns. 

CollegeRaptor: Enrollments by State (https://www.collegeraptor.com/college-rankings/details/TotalEnrollment/State)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on May 11, 2023, 06:49:15 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2023, 07:45:20 PM
Found this interesting and, of course, a little disheartening.  At the same time, a lot of these colleges are seeing upticks in enrollment, sometimes 10% or more, as many more are seeing modest to more pronounced downturns. 

CollegeRaptor: Enrollments by State (https://www.collegeraptor.com/college-rankings/details/TotalEnrollment/State)

The big are getting bigger. Top enrolments around the Northeast edumegopolis: NYU up 5.5k; Boston U up 3.5k.     In the Southwest ASU (in person) up 3.5k, USC up 3k, UCLA up 3k, Cal up 3k, UCSD up 2k.   These upticks are bigger than the enrolments of the schools that have gone out. 

These are total enrolment, not undergrad. The profitable masters programs make up a big proportion at some.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 11, 2023, 07:55:15 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 10, 2023, 07:45:20 PM
Found this interesting and, of course, a little disheartening.  At the same time, a lot of these colleges are seeing upticks in enrollment, sometimes 10% or more, as many more are seeing modest to more pronounced downturns. 

CollegeRaptor: Enrollments by State (https://www.collegeraptor.com/college-rankings/details/TotalEnrollment/State)

Not much change in relative rankings in our state.  A couple of schools that are adjacent in the rankings switched places.

Alma Mater and my parents' alma mater both gained a bit, which is heartening. 

The state's HCBU's all appear to have tanked badly, which is deeply concerning.  I would guess that we're going to see some of them on this thread before too much longer.  Come to think of it, I can't recall any local black college-bound students of my acquaintance whom I've heard of going to any of them.  But then nearly all college-bound students of any sort in our town default to the nearest state school, forty miles from here.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Anselm on May 11, 2023, 09:18:20 AM
Quote from: Mobius on May 10, 2023, 03:48:06 PM
Iowa only has three public universities and 15 community colleges. Wyoming has eight community colleges. Striking difference between the two states, as Wyoming's population is about less than a fifth the size of Iowa's.

Arkansas with less people than Iowa has at least ten 4 year universities that I can think of right now.  Iowa  can use a few more.  I really wish they could build a state version of a SLAC with small classes and no big time sports.  Not everyone is cut out for the large state universities.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 11, 2023, 09:39:32 AM
Quote from: Anselm on May 11, 2023, 09:18:20 AM
Quote from: Mobius on May 10, 2023, 03:48:06 PM
Iowa only has three public universities and 15 community colleges. Wyoming has eight community colleges. Striking difference between the two states, as Wyoming's population is about less than a fifth the size of Iowa's.

Arkansas with less people than Iowa has at least ten 4 year universities that I can think of right now.  Iowa  can use a few more.  I really wish they could build a state version of a SLAC with small classes and no big time sports.  Not everyone is cut out for the large state universities.

That's one reason why our local students go mostly to the little state school nearby.  That, and the big state flagship is a very long way away.

Henderson State University filled the "public SLAC" niche for many years in Arkansas.  No longer, since they've now axed liberal arts.  But it's at least still a smaller school available in a region hours from the state flagship.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on May 11, 2023, 09:44:55 AM
Quote from: FishProf on May 10, 2023, 06:37:54 PM
Quote from: Mobius on May 10, 2023, 03:48:06 PM
Iowa only has three public universities and 15 community colleges. Wyoming has One Public University and eight community colleges. Striking difference between the two states, as Wyoming's population is about less than a fifth the size of Iowa's.

Fixed that for you...

I spotted Wyoming the one. Just looking at how Iowa has such few public institutions of higher learning compared to its population. North Dakota has two flagships and four smaller four-year schools scattered throughout the state, along with some community colleges. Iowa relied on the SLAC model to provide four-year degrees in rural area, and we are seeing the results.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 13, 2023, 01:41:31 AM
Medaille University is going to close now that the acquisition by Trocaire College is off the table. Medaile has run deficits since 2013, its endowment is only $6 million, and it's got more than $22 million in bond debt. It pulls in only $20 million in annual operating revenue but has $35 million in annual operating expenses.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on May 13, 2023, 02:15:12 PM
Quote from: spork on May 13, 2023, 01:41:31 AM
Medaille University is going to close now that the acquisition by Trocaire College is off the table. Medaile has run deficits since 2013, its endowment is only $6 million, and it's got more than $22 million in bond debt. It pulls in only $20 million in annual operating revenue but has $35 million in annual operating expenses.

Looking at the enrollment Medaille has to be way over discounting tuition.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 16, 2023, 02:02:20 AM
Quote from: spork on May 13, 2023, 01:41:31 AM
Medaille University is going to close now that the acquisition by Trocaire College is off the table. Medaile has run deficits since 2013, its endowment is only $6 million, and it's got more than $22 million in bond debt. It pulls in only $20 million in annual operating revenue but has $35 million in annual operating expenses.

August 31
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on May 16, 2023, 07:56:25 AM
I think schools taking part in the teachout will get a good look at some of those discounts.

My guess? 75-80%
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 16, 2023, 08:16:49 AM
Quote from: selecter on May 16, 2023, 07:56:25 AM
I think schools taking part in the teachout will get a good look at some of those discounts.

My guess? 75-80%

I'd never heard of Medaille, Trocaire, or any of the schools offering teach-outs.  Lots of little obscure colleges in that neck of the woods.  I guess the remaining ones are glad to poach some students from the failing school.  The shakeout of struggling institutions in the region may not be over yet. 

Looks like Medaille started out as a teachers' college for Catholic schools.  At some point they abandoned their religious affiliation.  Another school that lost its original mission, and never found much of a distinctive niche to replace that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Scout on May 16, 2023, 02:40:05 PM
I'm from the area and Medaille was a well known player regionally. I don't think losing the religious affiliation was a big loss or win. Most who I know went there didn't go because of its Catholicism.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 16, 2023, 03:25:48 PM
Quote from: Scout on May 16, 2023, 02:40:05 PM
I'm from the area and Medaille was a well known player regionally. I don't think losing the religious affiliation was a big loss or win. Most who I know went there didn't go because of its Catholicism.

Just out of curiosity--did they have any particular programs that they were known for?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on May 17, 2023, 06:08:02 AM
In roughly the same region, the Paul Smith's College story is getting weird. Looks to me like the accreditor says no and the president says yes. I can guess how that will work out.
https://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2023/05/paul-smiths-president-the-college-has-no-plans-to-close.html

Technically, I'm assuming the accreditor said "teach out" and everyone else heard "close." Splitting that hair will be detrimental all around.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 18, 2023, 11:00:18 AM
Quote from: selecter on May 17, 2023, 06:08:02 AM
In roughly the same region, the Paul Smith's College story is getting weird. Looks to me like the accreditor says no and the president says yes. I can guess how that will work out.
https://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2023/05/paul-smiths-president-the-college-has-no-plans-to-close.html

Technically, I'm assuming the accreditor said "teach out" and everyone else heard "close." Splitting that hair will be detrimental all around.

IHE: Accreditor Demands Teach-Out Plan From Paul Smith's College (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2023/05/16/accreditor-demands-teach-out-plan-paul-smiths-college)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 18, 2023, 05:30:31 PM
Paul Smith's will close. It is no longer a financially viable operation.

Upper Iowa University. Undergraduate FTE enrollment peaked at 5525 in 2012 and dropped to 3285 in 2021. Consistent deficits of up to 10% of total operating expenses.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on May 18, 2023, 07:25:10 PM
If my friend of a friend is correct, some of the students coming out of Medaille seem to be 85% discounted. Tough for the teachout schools, I'd reckon.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 19, 2023, 07:41:48 AM
Quote from: spork on May 18, 2023, 05:30:31 PM
Paul Smith's will close. It is no longer a financially viable operation.

Upper Iowa University. Undergraduate FTE enrollment peaked at 5525 in 2012 and dropped to 3285 in 2021. Consistent deficits of up to 10% of total operating expenses.

The latest news says that they've just announced about three dozen layoffs, and are eliminating several sports programs.  But starting a new program in women's wrestling.

And they are closing seven "regional education centers."  I suppose these are some kind of remote education sites that didn't pan out?

They're also hoping to pick up orphaned students from Iowa Weslyan.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on May 19, 2023, 06:56:22 PM
Quote from: apl68 on May 19, 2023, 07:41:48 AM
Quote from: spork on May 18, 2023, 05:30:31 PM
Paul Smith's will close. It is no longer a financially viable operation.

Upper Iowa University. Undergraduate FTE enrollment peaked at 5525 in 2012 and dropped to 3285 in 2021. Consistent deficits of up to 10% of total operating expenses.

The latest news says that they've just announced about three dozen layoffs, and are eliminating several sports programs.  But starting a new program in women's wrestling.

And they are closing seven "regional education centers."  I suppose these are some kind of remote education sites that didn't pan out?

They're also hoping to pick up orphaned students from Iowa Weslyan.

I honestly had no idea that Upper Iowa University even existed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on May 30, 2023, 05:51:02 AM
King's College (NYC, not London) lost its accreditation. It needs to close.

MSCHE announcement (https://www.msche.org/institution/9187/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on May 30, 2023, 07:21:24 AM
Quote from: spork on May 30, 2023, 05:51:02 AM
King's College (NYC, not London) lost its accreditation. It needs to close.

MSCHE announcement (https://www.msche.org/institution/9187/)

https://www.highereddive.com/news/kings-college-on-the-brink-of-closure-still-fundraising-to-stay-alive/647277/

I wonder whether billionaire Peter Chung will get his $2 million  loan back.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on May 30, 2023, 08:20:30 AM
With enrollment dropping below 400, they really are below the threshold of viability now.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: hester on June 08, 2023, 10:23:53 AM
Hi,
  Has anyone heard the outcome this budget is having on CSCU ( not UConn)? I understand state colleges are already trimming costs.

If I understand correctly,  it's approximately a 150 mm cut over 17 colleges/ uni.

8-12 mm cuts will be felt deep at each institution.

Thanks

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 08, 2023, 12:41:24 PM
That would translate to scores of faculty and staff cuts at each institution, at least.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 08, 2023, 05:43:51 PM
Quote from: downer on May 30, 2023, 07:21:24 AM
Quote from: spork on May 30, 2023, 05:51:02 AM
King's College (NYC, not London) lost its accreditation. It needs to close.

MSCHE announcement (https://www.msche.org/institution/9187/)

https://www.highereddive.com/news/kings-college-on-the-brink-of-closure-still-fundraising-to-stay-alive/647277/

I wonder whether billionaire Peter Chung will get his $2 million  loan back.

The school was really a vanity project of Richard and Helen DeVos (the family of Amway and Secty of Ed fame). When they died, the school's financial model did as well.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on June 08, 2023, 07:25:29 PM
And King's blew away whatever credibility it still had a few years back by hiring Dinesh D'Souza as its president.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 08, 2023, 08:55:12 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on June 08, 2023, 07:25:29 PM
And King's blew away whatever credibility it still had a few years back by hiring Dinesh D'Souza as its president.

Well, we need to bury the culture wars then.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on June 09, 2023, 10:52:39 PM
Even strongly committed righty culture warriors need to recognize that hiring/ promoting scumbags is a bad strategic decision.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Diogenes on June 12, 2023, 10:09:14 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on June 09, 2023, 10:52:39 PM
Even strongly committed righty culture warriors need to recognize that hiring/ promoting scumbags is a bad strategic decision.

I would argue it's very strategic. They want to tear down higher education. So they put people like that at the top to trash everything.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on June 12, 2023, 12:42:24 PM
THat might be right, about some of them, but the people who hired D'Souza to run King's wanted to advance the fortunes of King's, not destroy it, and they reasoned, if you can call it that, that his public profile would be good for donations and student recruitment.   No one thought to tell him, however, that it is best not to bring one's mistress to a Christian 'family values' conference, which he did more or less at the same time he got the job.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on June 14, 2023, 07:51:44 AM
It seems to me that a number of famous people become nearly psychopathic in their tendencies as they rise up the ladder (D'Souza here). Or perhaps they were always psychopaths and fame just shines a light on it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: pgher on June 14, 2023, 12:32:31 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on June 14, 2023, 07:51:44 AMIt seems to me that a number of famous people become nearly psychopathic in their tendencies as they rise up the ladder (D'Souza here). Or perhaps they were always psychopaths and fame just shines a light on it.

Or perhaps, being a bit of a psychopath is necessary to become famous, at least in some fields or venues.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 14, 2023, 01:06:56 PM
Quote from: pgher on June 14, 2023, 12:32:31 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on June 14, 2023, 07:51:44 AMIt seems to me that a number of famous people become nearly psychopathic in their tendencies as they rise up the ladder (D'Souza here). Or perhaps they were always psychopaths and fame just shines a light on it.

Or perhaps, being a bit of a psychopath is necessary to become famous, at least in some fields or venues.

I'm reminded of an old fable about a dog who had a habit of getting into trouble, to the point of getting his master into trouble.  To slow him down, the master hung an awkward weight around his neck that made it harder for him to chase, bite, etc.  People naturally stared.  The dog proudly dragged his weight around town to show it off, thinking that the staring people were admirers.

The moral:  Do not confuse notoriety with fame. 

Of course "famous" in our language has long since come to be used nine times out of ten where "notorious" would work better.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 23, 2023, 09:38:17 AM
Money Magazine has published college rankings (https://money.com/best-colleges/methodology/). True to their name, their criteria include whether the school is in dire financial straits and simply excludes such schools from the ranking entirely. It is not one of the factors affecting the ranking. So the absence of a school could be a good indicator of trouble.

The ranking is intended to include the value of the undergraduate education received for the likely cost. That intention means that a lot of PUIs are on the list that are not featured in other rankings based on research or Nobel Prizes. Therefore, schools whose financial status is not otherwise easy to discern could be on the list.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 23, 2023, 09:57:08 AM
West Virginia $45M Shortfall (https://www.wowktv.com/news/west-virginia/search-underway-for-fixes-to-wvu-45m-budget-shortfall/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 26, 2023, 01:47:20 AM
Cabrini University is closing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on June 26, 2023, 03:24:37 AM
Quote from: spork on June 26, 2023, 01:47:20 AMCabrini University is closing.
So the strategy of changing from a college to a 1500-student university in 2016 was not successful.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lilyb on June 26, 2023, 07:31:31 AM
Quote from: Hibush on June 23, 2023, 09:38:17 AMMoney Magazine has published college rankings (https://money.com/best-colleges/methodology/). True to their name, their criteria include whether the school is in dire financial straits and simply excludes such schools from the ranking entirely. It is not one of the factors affecting the ranking. So the absence of a school could be a good indicator of trouble.

The ranking is intended to include the value of the undergraduate education received for the likely cost. That intention means that a lot of PUIs are on the list that are not featured in other rankings based on research or Nobel Prizes. Therefore, schools whose financial status is not otherwise easy to discern could be on the list.

Yikes. My institution is not on the list, but our primary competitor in the city is.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on June 26, 2023, 07:52:11 AM
Quote from: Hibush on June 26, 2023, 03:24:37 AM
Quote from: spork on June 26, 2023, 01:47:20 AMCabrini University is closing.
So the strategy of changing from a college to a 1500-student university in 2016 was not successful.

Looks like their enrollment actually crashed the year they tried to do that.  Even though it was presumably meant to help the college grow instead.

We're losing so many of these distinctive little schools.  Our world is poorer for it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on June 29, 2023, 09:49:48 AM
Quote from: apl68 on June 26, 2023, 07:52:11 AM[. . . ]

We're losing so many of these distinctive little schools.  Our world is poorer for it.

As a point of debate, I'll say that many of these little schools are not distinctive -- they are frequently expensive to attend, keep the lights on by recruiting a lot of unprepared/unmotivated students, and deliver a sub-par education because of a lack of resources.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 04, 2023, 01:05:34 AM
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2023/07/03/north-dakota-university-leaders-fear-catastrophic-implications-minnesota-free-tuition-plan (https://www.mprnews.org/story/2023/07/03/north-dakota-university-leaders-fear-catastrophic-implications-minnesota-free-tuition-plan)

"'Probably half of our football team comes from Minnesota, so that's kind of a big deal to us,' College of Science President Rod Flanigan said."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 05, 2023, 12:59:35 AM
Alliance University, a.k.a. Nyack College, is closing:

https://allianceu.edu/news/a-heartbreaking-farewell-alliance-university-faces-accreditation-withdrawal-and-campus-closure/ (https://allianceu.edu/news/a-heartbreaking-farewell-alliance-university-faces-accreditation-withdrawal-and-campus-closure/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 05, 2023, 08:33:36 AM
Quote from: spork on July 04, 2023, 01:05:34 AMhttps://www.mprnews.org/story/2023/07/03/north-dakota-university-leaders-fear-catastrophic-implications-minnesota-free-tuition-plan (https://www.mprnews.org/story/2023/07/03/north-dakota-university-leaders-fear-catastrophic-implications-minnesota-free-tuition-plan)

"'Probably half of our football team comes from Minnesota, so that's kind of a big deal to us,' College of Science President Rod Flanigan said."

Thank you for finding that very juicy quote. So many layers of dysfuncion captured so concisely.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on July 05, 2023, 08:58:53 AM
The College of Science plays in the Junior College league league. I was half expecting D3- as so many have commented on small schools where athletic participation drives enrollment. But I wasn't expecting it for a Junior College!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 05, 2023, 10:08:44 AM
IHE: Moody's Report: College Closures to Increase (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2023/07/05/moodys-report-college-closures-increase)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 05, 2023, 05:47:15 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 05, 2023, 10:08:44 AMIHE: Moody's Report: College Closures to Increase (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2023/07/05/moodys-report-college-closures-increase)
Moody's doesn't offer insights that we are not already well aware of on this thread.

I expect successful donor and state rescues to remain rare, so the prediction of closure is not likely to be complicated by that possibility.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Langue_doc on July 06, 2023, 05:40:00 AM
QuoteOnce feared doomed, Bloomfield College in NJ merges with Montclair State University

https://gothamist.com/news/bloomfield-college-in-nj-once-feared-doomed-merges-with-montclair-university
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 11, 2023, 06:51:35 AM
IHE: American Confidence in Higher Ed Hits Historic Low (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/financial-health/2023/07/11/american-confidence-higher-ed-hits-historic-low)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 11, 2023, 09:42:06 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on July 06, 2023, 05:40:00 AM
QuoteOnce feared doomed, Bloomfield College in NJ merges with Montclair State University

https://gothamist.com/news/bloomfield-college-in-nj-once-feared-doomed-merges-with-montclair-university

Did the assets and obligations roughly cancel out so no cash changed hands?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on July 11, 2023, 09:19:58 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 11, 2023, 06:51:35 AMIHE: American Confidence in Higher Ed Hits Historic Low (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/financial-health/2023/07/11/american-confidence-higher-ed-hits-historic-low)

Nobody should be surprised.

The article, of course, speculates on what may have caused this. As expected, the article likes to blame the Republicans' culture wars. Yeah, that has a lot to do with it, but we have to be careful about using Republicans as a convenient reason, because it distracts from other more important reasons.

The article neglects to point out all the garbage degrees and all the garbage institutions like (UoP, Everest, etc.). There are many, many ex-students who hold garbage degrees or who attended garbage schools, or worst of all, got garbage degrees from garbage schools. There are a lot of this population, and they (and those close to them like family and friends) have lost confidence in higher ed because of the broken implicit promises of these garbage degrees and garbage institutions that were allowed to exist in the first place.

The article neglects to point out that the legit schools are over-promising outcomes that are borderline unrealistic, even borrowing from the bad actors like UoP and misleading its students, prospective students, and the general public, which shakes confidence even further.

The article neglects to point out the skyrocketing costs of obtaining a college degree, thereby raising expectations of the outcomes of the degree to the point where the return-on-investment is very low relative to the cost, and so confidence in the value of the degree is hard to obtain and maintain.

The article neglects to point out the re-orientation of higher education to the administration of higher education, rather than the education itself.

The article neglects to point out that universities do a terrible job of communicating to the general public, the impact of their research.

The article neglects to point out that universities do a terrible job of communicating to the general public, the impact of the university as a regional economic engine/economic driver.

This Inside Higher Ed article is garbage.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on July 11, 2023, 10:40:57 PM
Quote from: lightning on July 11, 2023, 09:19:58 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 11, 2023, 06:51:35 AMIHE: American Confidence in Higher Ed Hits Historic Low (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/financial-health/2023/07/11/american-confidence-higher-ed-hits-historic-low)

Nobody should be surprised.

The article, of course, speculates on what may have caused this. As expected, the article likes to blame the Republicans' culture wars. Yeah, that has a lot to do with it, but we have to be careful about using Republicans as a convenient reason, because it distracts from other more important reasons.

The article neglects to point out all the garbage degrees and all the garbage institutions like (UoP, Everest, etc.). There are many, many ex-students who hold garbage degrees or who attended garbage schools, or worst of all, got garbage degrees from garbage schools. There are a lot of this population, and they (and those close to them like family and friends) have lost confidence in higher ed because of the broken implicit promises of these garbage degrees and garbage institutions that were allowed to exist in the first place.

The article neglects to point out that the legit schools are over-promising outcomes that are borderline unrealistic, even borrowing from the bad actors like UoP and misleading its students, prospective students, and the general public, which shakes confidence even further.

The article neglects to point out the skyrocketing costs of obtaining a college degree, thereby raising expectations of the outcomes of the degree to the point where the return-on-investment is very low relative to the cost, and so confidence in the value of the degree is hard to obtain and maintain.

The article neglects to point out the re-orientation of higher education to the administration of higher education, rather than the education itself.

The article neglects to point out that universities do a terrible job of communicating to the general public, the impact of their research.

The article neglects to point out that universities do a terrible job of communicating to the general public, the impact of the university as a regional economic engine/economic driver.

This Inside Higher Ed article is garbage.



That's a harsh judgment on the article, but the main topic is the Gallup poll. I'd like more info on regional variations, and comparisons with other countries. Seems like this could be a thread of its own.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Langue_doc on July 12, 2023, 05:03:23 AM
Quote from: Hibush on July 11, 2023, 09:42:06 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on July 06, 2023, 05:40:00 AM
QuoteOnce feared doomed, Bloomfield College in NJ merges with Montclair State University

https://gothamist.com/news/bloomfield-college-in-nj-once-feared-doomed-merges-with-montclair-university

Did the assets and obligations roughly cancel out so no cash changed hands?

The official merger announcement on the college website
https://bloomfield.edu/announcements/summary-agreement-and-plan-merger

QuoteBloomfield College will be merged into a new nonprofit entity controlled by Montclair State University to be known as Bloomfield College of Montclair State University. Bloomfield College and Montclair State University aim to complete the merger as of June 30, 2023. From that point forward, Bloomfield College of Montclair State University, as a constituent college of Montclair State University, will continue to provide a distinctive educational experience consistent with Bloomfield College's mission to provide a transformative education with an emphasis on empowering first-generation students from a diversity of backgrounds, and where students will have access to and benefit from the resources available to all Montclair State University students.

From the North Jersey News https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/education/2023/07/05/bloomfield-college-merger-montclair-state-university/70382723007/

QuoteA merger with Montclair State University has given a new lease on life to Bloomfield College, a small, financially-strapped private college serving mostly low-income Black and Hispanic students in Essex County, saving it from shutting its doors.

Bloomfield College, among the state's oldest private minority-serving institutions enrolling about 1,200 students, officially merged with Montclair State, a public research university serving 21,800 students, on July 1. Gov. Phil Murphy gave final authorization to the merger by signing it into law Friday, at the start of the new fiscal year.

Starting in the fall, admissions to the two institutions and classes on the two campuses will remain separate while the control and management of infrastructure and operations at Bloomfield shifts to Montclair State. Students at the newly minted "Bloomfield College of Montclair State University" will see no interruptions in the fall as the two institutions continue to design what their partnership could eventually provide them, said Montclair President Jonathan Koppell.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Langue_doc on July 12, 2023, 05:07:01 AM
Quote from: lightning on July 11, 2023, 09:19:58 PMThe article neglects to point out the re-orientation of higher education to the administration of higher education, rather than the education itself.

This is probably the main reason for banging our heads in despair.
 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 12, 2023, 06:40:33 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on July 12, 2023, 05:03:23 AM[. . .]

"Bloomfield College of Montclair State University" will see no interruptions in the fall as the two institutions continue to design what their partnership could eventually provide them, said Montclair President Jonathan Koppell.



In five years "BCMSU" will be nothing but a sign on a building. Either Bloomfield College will be completely subsumed into Montclair State as a satellite campus, or Montclair will sell the real estate.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 12, 2023, 07:45:22 AM
Quote from: spork on July 12, 2023, 06:40:33 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on July 12, 2023, 05:03:23 AM[. . .]

"Bloomfield College of Montclair State University" will see no interruptions in the fall as the two institutions continue to design what their partnership could eventually provide them, said Montclair President Jonathan Koppell.



In five years "BCMSU" will be nothing but a sign on a building. Either Bloomfield College will be completely subsumed into Montclair State as a satellite campus, or Montclair will sell the real estate.


If BCMSU is just a sign on a building, and that seems a likely outcome, will the building have been allowed to decay without maintenance or will MSU have spent on the deferred maintenance that is typical of academic facilitites at struggling schools? 

BCs base actually seems like a good way for this college to build the diverse student body that fits its mission. As long as the money to pay for the higher-financial-need students comes from the state, this could work out well.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on July 12, 2023, 09:07:23 AM
Quote from: lighteningThe article neglects to point out the crashing decline of public support, leading to the skyrocketing out-of-pocket costs of obtaining a college degree, thereby raising expectations of the outcomes of the degree to the point where the return-on-investment is very low relative to the cost, and so confidence in the value of the degree is hard to obtain and maintain.


There. FTFY.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 12, 2023, 10:27:57 AM
IHE: Fighting for Scraps in Pennsylvania (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/admissions/traditional-age/2023/07/12/pa-public-colleges-battle-students-and-funding)

Lower Deck
QuoteEnrollment in the state has plummeted, but it has one of the highest ratios of institutions to students in the country. The result is fierce competition over a dwindling pool of applicants.

QuoteWhile the more popular campuses are stable or growing, many of the state's public institutions have seen drastic enrollment declines since 2010. Enrollment at Penn State's University Park campus is up 8 percent since 2010, and Pitt Oakland is up by 1 percent. But when the numbers at the two institutions are considered, including all of their campuses, both have suffered drops of over 30 percent, according to public data from the institutions. PASSHE's systemwide enrollment has also fallen by 30 percent in the same period.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: treeoflife on July 17, 2023, 08:59:12 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jul/14/rishi-sunak-force-english-universities-cap-low-value-degrees
This is an interesting approach, I do not see it happening here but the trend is clear.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on July 18, 2023, 02:32:55 AM
Update on Paul Smith's College:

https://www.adirondackexplorer.org/stories/paul-smiths-college-breaks-with-fedcap (https://www.adirondackexplorer.org/stories/paul-smiths-college-breaks-with-fedcap)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on July 18, 2023, 07:17:03 AM
Quote from: treeoflife on July 17, 2023, 08:59:12 AMhttps://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jul/14/rishi-sunak-force-english-universities-cap-low-value-degrees
This is an interesting approach, I do not see it happening here but the trend is clear.

From the article:
QuoteCourses will be capped that do not have a high proportion of graduates getting a professional job, going into postgraduate study or starting a business, the prime minister will announce on Monday.

Critics of the move say that it effectively penalises universities and courses with a high proportion of working-class students, who have fewer financial resources or family support and so are more likely to drop out.

"This will effectively act as a red flag to students. Who wants to apply to a 'low value' course?" said one vice-chancellor, who added that universities might also become more cautious over admitting students who might be less likely to graduate or want professional careers.

Why are working-class students being disproportionately recruited into these programs? Is this an example of systemic discrimination?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 18, 2023, 09:43:44 AM
Quote from: spork on July 18, 2023, 02:32:55 AMUpdate on Paul Smith's College:

https://www.adirondackexplorer.org/stories/paul-smiths-college-breaks-with-fedcap (https://www.adirondackexplorer.org/stories/paul-smiths-college-breaks-with-fedcap)

A significant, yet foreseeable, sticking point was that "the proposed bylaws and charter changes advanced by Fedcap and the college on May 24 included revisions that are in conflict with the Education Law and the Rules of the Board of Regents."

They need to "think out of the box," but not out of the box that is state law.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Scout on July 18, 2023, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 18, 2023, 07:17:03 AM
Quote from: treeoflife on July 17, 2023, 08:59:12 AMhttps://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jul/14/rishi-sunak-force-english-universities-cap-low-value-degrees
This is an interesting approach, I do not see it happening here but the trend is clear.

From the article:
QuoteCourses will be capped that do not have a high proportion of graduates getting a professional job, going into postgraduate study or starting a business, the prime minister will announce on Monday.

Critics of the move say that it effectively penalises universities and courses with a high proportion of working-class students, who have fewer financial resources or family support and so are more likely to drop out.

"This will effectively act as a red flag to students. Who wants to apply to a 'low value' course?" said one vice-chancellor, who added that universities might also become more cautious over admitting students who might be less likely to graduate or want professional careers.

Why are working-class students being disproportionately recruited into these programs? Is this an example of systemic discrimination?


Unlikely actively recruited because they're working class. If true, itd be more likely because they may not have college educated family (first gen) helping them in making these decisions and don't consider the implications of the choices they're making. So they may end up disproportionately enrolling in those programs even though all students are equally recruited.

If working class students are disproportionally represented in these majors, that would be an example of inequitable outcomes despite an equal policy.

However, my best guess is that institutions that have a high working class population overall would then,  by simple math, have more students impacted than a college with fewer working class students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on July 18, 2023, 04:08:05 PM
Quote from: Scout on July 18, 2023, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 18, 2023, 07:17:03 AM
Quote from: treeoflife on July 17, 2023, 08:59:12 AMhttps://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jul/14/rishi-sunak-force-english-universities-cap-low-value-degrees
This is an interesting approach, I do not see it happening here but the trend is clear.

From the article:
QuoteCourses will be capped that do not have a high proportion of graduates getting a professional job, going into postgraduate study or starting a business, the prime minister will announce on Monday.

Critics of the move say that it effectively penalises universities and courses with a high proportion of working-class students, who have fewer financial resources or family support and so are more likely to drop out.

"This will effectively act as a red flag to students. Who wants to apply to a 'low value' course?" said one vice-chancellor, who added that universities might also become more cautious over admitting students who might be less likely to graduate or want professional careers.

Why are working-class students being disproportionately recruited into these programs? Is this an example of systemic discrimination?


Unlikely actively recruited because they're working class. If true, itd be more likely because they may not have college educated family (first gen) helping them in making these decisions and don't consider the implications of the choices they're making. So they may end up disproportionately enrolling in those programs even though all students are equally recruited.

If working class students are disproportionally represented in these majors, that would be an example of inequitable outcomes despite an equal policy.

However, my best guess is that institutions that have a high working class population overall would then,  by simple math, have more students impacted than a college with fewer working class students.

By definition, a bachelor's degree in anything sets a student up for better wages, higher job security and all that good stuff, even if they don't do it immediately or in that field.

And working-class students might be less likely to get that plum job right out of college, but 3-5 years later they are certainly well-positioned to move up in their careers.

This is just dumb policy all around.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Scout on July 18, 2023, 04:37:55 PM
Oh, I agree. I think this idea of low performance majors is foolish- college is not simply vocational training and by treating it as such we actually undermine our own profession. Of course employment is part of the conversation, but preparing people to be engaged, thoughtful, mentally nimble, and literate has tremendous value unto itself.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 18, 2023, 07:16:25 PM
Quote from: Scout on July 18, 2023, 04:37:55 PMOh, I agree. I think this idea of low performance majors is foolish- college is not simply vocational training and by treating it as such we actually undermine our own profession. Of course employment is part of the conversation, but preparing people to be engaged, thoughtful, mentally nimble, and literate has tremendous value unto itself.

I've posted the same idea above a million times.  But...

Employability is foregrounded in virtually every bit of advertising literature I've ever seen from a college.  We're still doing it.  The brochures always show stupidly smiling young people, of course, but colleges have advertised the financial benefits of a college degree since I was a little kid.  Now that tuition and student loans are really weighing us down, and information on outcomes is at our fingertips, the advertising strategy is backfiring.  Add to that the need to always pay for technologies, student services and amenities, and we've done this to ourselves.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on July 18, 2023, 08:04:53 PM
So, which ones are the "low performance" majors in Britain? Do they give a list or a metric for determining this? Or is this just hot air rhetoric to stir the base?
My money's on it being hot air.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on July 19, 2023, 06:12:00 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on July 18, 2023, 08:04:53 PMSo, which ones are the "low performance" majors in Britain? Do they give a list or a metric for determining this? Or is this just hot air rhetoric to stir the base?
My money's on it being hot air.

From the article:
QuoteCourses will be capped that do not have a high proportion of graduates getting a professional job, going into postgraduate study or starting a business,

"This will effectively act as a red flag to students. Who wants to apply to a 'low value' course?" said one vice-chancellor, who added that universities might also become more cautious over admitting students who might be less likely to graduate or want professional careers.

The administration of the student numbers cap will effectively go to the higher education regulator for England from 2024-25. The Office for Students' (OfS) "B3" conditions currently measure individual university courses on a variety of metrics, including the pass rate, dropout rate and the proportion of students who go on to "graduate-level" or professional jobs.

The OfS can penalise individual courses where fewer than 60% of students go on to further study, professional work or similar "positive outcomes" within 15 months of graduating. The B3 conditions also require at least 80% of full-time students to continue their studies, and 75% of full-time students to complete their courses.


Setting aside the debate about post-graduation outcomes, I think there's an important discussion to be had about programs with very high attrition rates and low graduation rates.  Opening the floodgates to students who have no realistic chance of finishing is just taking their money and wasting their time.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on July 19, 2023, 09:00:39 AM
Setting a requirement of 80% of students to continue will simply mean that courses will lower their standards so no one fails out before graduating. However, a number of students do drop out because they can't afford to continue, and the UK government's goal of continuing to increase the cost of degrees is going to interfere with that one.

The whole initiative is completely wrong-headed, for reasons I'm sure I don't need to explain.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on July 19, 2023, 09:57:06 AM
Has anyone encountered something like this? Is it a pause?

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/financial-health/2023/07/19/kings-college-cancels-classes-says-it-wont-close
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on July 19, 2023, 10:28:05 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 19, 2023, 06:12:00 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on July 18, 2023, 08:04:53 PMSo, which ones are the "low performance" majors in Britain? Do they give a list or a metric for determining this? Or is this just hot air rhetoric to stir the base?
My money's on it being hot air.

From the article:
QuoteCourses will be capped that do not have a high proportion of graduates getting a professional job, going into postgraduate study or starting a business,

"This will effectively act as a red flag to students. Who wants to apply to a 'low value' course?" said one vice-chancellor, who added that universities might also become more cautious over admitting students who might be less likely to graduate or want professional careers.

The administration of the student numbers cap will effectively go to the higher education regulator for England from 2024-25. The Office for Students' (OfS) "B3" conditions currently measure individual university courses on a variety of metrics, including the pass rate, dropout rate and the proportion of students who go on to "graduate-level" or professional jobs.

The OfS can penalise individual courses where fewer than 60% of students go on to further study, professional work or similar "positive outcomes" within 15 months of graduating. The B3 conditions also require at least 80% of full-time students to continue their studies, and 75% of full-time students to complete their courses.


Setting aside the debate about post-graduation outcomes, I think there's an important discussion to be had about programs with very high attrition rates and low graduation rates.  Opening the floodgates to students who have no realistic chance of finishing is just taking their money and wasting their time.

Well then you would have to get rid of STEM degrees, because they have the highest rate of transferred-out majors.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on July 19, 2023, 10:43:31 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 19, 2023, 09:57:06 AMHas anyone encountered something like this? Is it a pause?

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/financial-health/2023/07/19/kings-college-cancels-classes-says-it-wont-close

Sounds like they're about to close and just can't quite bring themselves to make the final decision.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on July 19, 2023, 12:06:50 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on July 19, 2023, 10:28:05 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 19, 2023, 06:12:00 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on July 18, 2023, 08:04:53 PMSo, which ones are the "low performance" majors in Britain? Do they give a list or a metric for determining this? Or is this just hot air rhetoric to stir the base?
My money's on it being hot air.

From the article:
QuoteCourses will be capped that do not have a high proportion of graduates getting a professional job, going into postgraduate study or starting a business,

"This will effectively act as a red flag to students. Who wants to apply to a 'low value' course?" said one vice-chancellor, who added that universities might also become more cautious over admitting students who might be less likely to graduate or want professional careers.

The administration of the student numbers cap will effectively go to the higher education regulator for England from 2024-25. The Office for Students' (OfS) "B3" conditions currently measure individual university courses on a variety of metrics, including the pass rate, dropout rate and the proportion of students who go on to "graduate-level" or professional jobs.

The OfS can penalise individual courses where fewer than 60% of students go on to further study, professional work or similar "positive outcomes" within 15 months of graduating. The B3 conditions also require at least 80% of full-time students to continue their studies, and 75% of full-time students to complete their courses.


Setting aside the debate about post-graduation outcomes, I think there's an important discussion to be had about programs with very high attrition rates and low graduation rates.  Opening the floodgates to students who have no realistic chance of finishing is just taking their money and wasting their time.

Well then you would have to get rid of STEM degrees, because they have the highest rate of transferred-out majors.

It's not clear from the article whether transferring to another program counts as "continuing" their studies or "completing" their courses. (Although I wouldn't be opposed to flagging any programs, including STEM, where a high percentage transfer out. Recruiting and/or admissions aren't doing a good job if students don't have a good idea of whether a particular program is a good fit for them. Filling seats with warm bodies isn't responsible behaviour.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on July 19, 2023, 03:37:02 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 19, 2023, 12:06:50 PMAlthough I wouldn't be opposed to flagging any programs, including STEM, where a high percentage transfer out. Recruiting and/or admissions aren't doing a good job if students don't have a good idea of whether a particular program is a good fit for them. Filling seats with warm bodies isn't responsible behaviour.


Why flag the program then?

Lot's of people wash out of "pre-med" majors b/c they can't handle it.  I don't see that as a failure of the program.  That's not a bug, that's a feature.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on July 19, 2023, 03:48:41 PM
Quote from: FishProf on July 19, 2023, 03:37:02 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 19, 2023, 12:06:50 PMAlthough I wouldn't be opposed to flagging any programs, including STEM, where a high percentage transfer out. Recruiting and/or admissions aren't doing a good job if students don't have a good idea of whether a particular program is a good fit for them. Filling seats with warm bodies isn't responsible behaviour.


Why flag the program then?

Lot's of people wash out of "pre-med" majors b/c they can't handle it.  I don't see that as a failure of the program.  That's not a bug, that's a feature.

And most of those "pre-meds" used their prereqs in biology and chemistry to knock out their general eds.

Again, someone sounding good but not knowing what the &^@% they are talking about. You'd think someone who had access to higher education would understand how it works.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 19, 2023, 08:11:58 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on July 19, 2023, 03:48:41 PM
Quote from: FishProf on July 19, 2023, 03:37:02 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 19, 2023, 12:06:50 PMAlthough I wouldn't be opposed to flagging any programs, including STEM, where a high percentage transfer out. Recruiting and/or admissions aren't doing a good job if students don't have a good idea of whether a particular program is a good fit for them. Filling seats with warm bodies isn't responsible behaviour.


Why flag the program then?

Lot's of people wash out of "pre-med" majors b/c they can't handle it.  I don't see that as a failure of the program.  That's not a bug, that's a feature.

And most of those "pre-meds" used their prereqs in biology and chemistry to knock out their general eds.

Again, someone sounding good but not knowing what the &^@% they are talking about. You'd think someone who had access to higher education would understand how it works.

People are allowed to make choices, Marshy, even bad ones.  A number of majors have gatekeeper gen ed classes and GPAs, anyway.  But at the undergrad level any student should be allowed to try any major they can get into.  It is not up to you or me to run their lives. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on July 20, 2023, 04:29:47 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 19, 2023, 08:11:58 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on July 19, 2023, 03:48:41 PM
Quote from: FishProf on July 19, 2023, 03:37:02 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 19, 2023, 12:06:50 PMAlthough I wouldn't be opposed to flagging any programs, including STEM, where a high percentage transfer out. Recruiting and/or admissions aren't doing a good job if students don't have a good idea of whether a particular program is a good fit for them. Filling seats with warm bodies isn't responsible behaviour.


Why flag the program then?

Lot's of people wash out of "pre-med" majors b/c they can't handle it.  I don't see that as a failure of the program.  That's not a bug, that's a feature.

And most of those "pre-meds" used their prereqs in biology and chemistry to knock out their general eds.

Again, someone sounding good but not knowing what the &^@% they are talking about. You'd think someone who had access to higher education would understand how it works.

People are allowed to make choices, Marshy, even bad ones.  A number of majors have gatekeeper gen ed classes and GPAs, anyway.  But at the undergrad level any student should be allowed to try any major they can get into.  It is not up to you or me to run their lives. 

Sure, but we owe them some honesty about their chances when they're offered admission. If, based on incoming grades, etc. we can predict a given student has a less than 50% chance of completing, they should know that when it's still easy to choose something else where their chance of success would be greater.
 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on July 20, 2023, 09:06:20 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 20, 2023, 04:29:47 AMSure, but we owe them some honesty about their chances when they're offered admission. If, based on incoming grades, etc. we can predict a given student has a less than 50% chance of completing, they should know that when it's still easy to choose something else where their chance of success would be greater.

Do you work somewhere where you don't tell students that?

Where I work, we do tell them.  Most don't listen.  Then what?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on July 20, 2023, 10:34:01 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 20, 2023, 04:29:47 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 19, 2023, 08:11:58 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on July 19, 2023, 03:48:41 PM
Quote from: FishProf on July 19, 2023, 03:37:02 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 19, 2023, 12:06:50 PMAlthough I wouldn't be opposed to flagging any programs, including STEM, where a high percentage transfer out. Recruiting and/or admissions aren't doing a good job if students don't have a good idea of whether a particular program is a good fit for them. Filling seats with warm bodies isn't responsible behaviour.


Why flag the program then?

Lot's of people wash out of "pre-med" majors b/c they can't handle it.  I don't see that as a failure of the program.  That's not a bug, that's a feature.

And most of those "pre-meds" used their prereqs in biology and chemistry to knock out their general eds.

Again, someone sounding good but not knowing what the &^@% they are talking about. You'd think someone who had access to higher education would understand how it works.

People are allowed to make choices, Marshy, even bad ones.  A number of majors have gatekeeper gen ed classes and GPAs, anyway.  But at the undergrad level any student should be allowed to try any major they can get into.  It is not up to you or me to run their lives. 

Sure, but we owe them some honesty about their chances when they're offered admission. If, based on incoming grades, etc. we can predict a given student has a less than 50% chance of completing, they should know that when it's still easy to choose something else where their chance of success would be greater.

Define success. In this case, it might not be "completing A." It might be "changing majors, applying their freshpeep prereqs to gen ed electives, and successfully graduating with a degree in B."

It's not up to us to tell them what they can and cannot do. We tell them what it takes to succeed, and let them know that if they struggle, there are lots of very good Plan B's out there because they aren't the only ones who have done it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: onthefringe on July 20, 2023, 01:24:33 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 20, 2023, 04:29:47 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 19, 2023, 08:11:58 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on July 19, 2023, 03:48:41 PM
Quote from: FishProf on July 19, 2023, 03:37:02 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 19, 2023, 12:06:50 PMAlthough I wouldn't be opposed to flagging any programs, including STEM, where a high percentage transfer out. Recruiting and/or admissions aren't doing a good job if students don't have a good idea of whether a particular program is a good fit for them. Filling seats with warm bodies isn't responsible behaviour.


Why flag the program then?

Lot's of people wash out of "pre-med" majors b/c they can't handle it.  I don't see that as a failure of the program.  That's not a bug, that's a feature.

And most of those "pre-meds" used their prereqs in biology and chemistry to knock out their general eds.

Again, someone sounding good but not knowing what the &^@% they are talking about. You'd think someone who had access to higher education would understand how it works.

People are allowed to make choices, Marshy, even bad ones.  A number of majors have gatekeeper gen ed classes and GPAs, anyway.  But at the undergrad level any student should be allowed to try any major they can get into.  It is not up to you or me to run their lives. 

Sure, but we owe them some honesty about their chances when they're offered admission. If, based on incoming grades, etc. we can predict a given student has a less than 50% chance of completing, they should know that when it's still easy to choose something else where their chance of success would be greater.
 

But we can't predict with anything like that level of accuracy. And as pointed out above, we need to let people have opportunities even if that means they sometimes make mistakes. And if you tie whether people get accepted to college to the major they claim they want, they just start lying about the major they want and then switch (or try to) when they arrive.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on July 20, 2023, 01:44:14 PM
Quote from: onthefringe on July 20, 2023, 01:24:33 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 20, 2023, 04:29:47 AMSure, but we owe them some honesty about their chances when they're offered admission. If, based on incoming grades, etc. we can predict a given student has a less than 50% chance of completing, they should know that when it's still easy to choose something else where their chance of success would be greater.
 

But we can't predict with anything like that level of accuracy. And as pointed out above, we need to let people have opportunities even if that means they sometimes make mistakes. And if you tie whether people get accepted to college to the major they claim they want, they just start lying about the major they want and then switch (or try to) when they arrive.

That's not the way it works in Canada. Students get accepted to a program; whether they can switch depends on whether they can meet whatever the requirements are of the program they want to transfer into. And some programs basically don't accept any transfers in.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 20, 2023, 02:24:58 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 20, 2023, 01:44:14 PM
Quote from: onthefringe on July 20, 2023, 01:24:33 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 20, 2023, 04:29:47 AMSure, but we owe them some honesty about their chances when they're offered admission. If, based on incoming grades, etc. we can predict a given student has a less than 50% chance of completing, they should know that when it's still easy to choose something else where their chance of success would be greater.
 

But we can't predict with anything like that level of accuracy. And as pointed out above, we need to let people have opportunities even if that means they sometimes make mistakes. And if you tie whether people get accepted to college to the major they claim they want, they just start lying about the major they want and then switch (or try to) when they arrive.

That's not the way it works in Canada. Students get accepted to a program; whether they can switch depends on whether they can meet whatever the requirements are of the program they want to transfer into. And some programs basically don't accept any transfers in.


Well buddy, it is different here and I think it is a basically good system despite its many faults.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: quasihumanist on July 20, 2023, 08:12:42 PM
Quote from: FishProf on July 20, 2023, 09:06:20 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 20, 2023, 04:29:47 AMSure, but we owe them some honesty about their chances when they're offered admission. If, based on incoming grades, etc. we can predict a given student has a less than 50% chance of completing, they should know that when it's still easy to choose something else where their chance of success would be greater.

Do you work somewhere where you don't tell students that?

Where I work, we do tell them.  Most don't listen.  Then what?

It's worse than that.  We lie to students and tell them they are succeeding when they actually aren't.  A significant fraction of our CS graduates cannot write code on their own.  (They find and copy vaguely relevant code off the Internet and make basically random changes until it passes the tests.)  By the time they get a job and get fired after a few months because they can't do it, we've collected the tuition and (more importantly) counted another successful student in the statistics we report to the public.  Most of the time, the student doesn't even blame us; they blame the employer firing them for having unfair expectations.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on July 20, 2023, 10:35:04 PM
Quote from: quasihumanist on July 20, 2023, 08:12:42 PM
Quote from: FishProf on July 20, 2023, 09:06:20 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 20, 2023, 04:29:47 AMSure, but we owe them some honesty about their chances when they're offered admission. If, based on incoming grades, etc. we can predict a given student has a less than 50% chance of completing, they should know that when it's still easy to choose something else where their chance of success would be greater.

Do you work somewhere where you don't tell students that?

Where I work, we do tell them.  Most don't listen.  Then what?

It's worse than that.  We lie to students and tell them they are succeeding when they actually aren't.  A significant fraction of our CS graduates cannot write code on their own.  (They find and copy vaguely relevant code off the Internet and make basically random changes until it passes the tests.)  By the time they get a job and get fired after a few months because they can't do it, we've collected the tuition and (more importantly) counted another successful student in the statistics we report to the public.  Most of the time, the student doesn't even blame us; they blame the employer firing them for having unfair expectations.

But, doesn't your university's CS degree get de-valued in the eyes of the employer, so then that employer avoids hiring your future graduates, which de-values your university's CS degree even further?

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on July 21, 2023, 05:10:30 AM
Quote from: lightning on July 20, 2023, 10:35:04 PM
Quote from: quasihumanist on July 20, 2023, 08:12:42 PM
Quote from: FishProf on July 20, 2023, 09:06:20 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 20, 2023, 04:29:47 AMSure, but we owe them some honesty about their chances when they're offered admission. If, based on incoming grades, etc. we can predict a given student has a less than 50% chance of completing, they should know that when it's still easy to choose something else where their chance of success would be greater.

Do you work somewhere where you don't tell students that?

Where I work, we do tell them.  Most don't listen.  Then what?

It's worse than that.  We lie to students and tell them they are succeeding when they actually aren't.  A significant fraction of our CS graduates cannot write code on their own.  (They find and copy vaguely relevant code off the Internet and make basically random changes until it passes the tests.)  By the time they get a job and get fired after a few months because they can't do it, we've collected the tuition and (more importantly) counted another successful student in the statistics we report to the public.  Most of the time, the student doesn't even blame us; they blame the employer firing them for having unfair expectations.

But, doesn't your university's CS degree get de-valued in the eyes of the employer, so then that employer avoids hiring your future graduates, which de-values your university's CS degree even further?



The university administration's short-term concern is for attrition and graduation rate; the department's long-term interest is preserving their reputation. These two will be in conflict in many institutions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on July 21, 2023, 05:14:03 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 20, 2023, 02:24:58 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 20, 2023, 01:44:14 PM
Quote from: onthefringe on July 20, 2023, 01:24:33 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 20, 2023, 04:29:47 AMSure, but we owe them some honesty about their chances when they're offered admission. If, based on incoming grades, etc. we can predict a given student has a less than 50% chance of completing, they should know that when it's still easy to choose something else where their chance of success would be greater.
 

But we can't predict with anything like that level of accuracy. And as pointed out above, we need to let people have opportunities even if that means they sometimes make mistakes. And if you tie whether people get accepted to college to the major they claim they want, they just start lying about the major they want and then switch (or try to) when they arrive.

That's not the way it works in Canada. Students get accepted to a program; whether they can switch depends on whether they can meet whatever the requirements are of the program they want to transfer into. And some programs basically don't accept any transfers in.


Well buddy, it is different here and I think it is a basically good system despite its many faults.

I assume even in the U.S. that individual programs can have requirements that people have to meet to "declare" them. (Like STEM programs having specific math requirements.)Is that not the case?
If it is, then it still means that the programs with the lowest bar for entry will tend to collect all of the people who didn't make the cut for anything else, which will automatically select for student who are likely to perform more poorly than average.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on July 21, 2023, 08:15:25 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 21, 2023, 05:10:30 AM
Quote from: lightning on July 20, 2023, 10:35:04 PM
Quote from: quasihumanist on July 20, 2023, 08:12:42 PM
Quote from: FishProf on July 20, 2023, 09:06:20 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 20, 2023, 04:29:47 AMSure, but we owe them some honesty about their chances when they're offered admission. If, based on incoming grades, etc. we can predict a given student has a less than 50% chance of completing, they should know that when it's still easy to choose something else where their chance of success would be greater.

Do you work somewhere where you don't tell students that?

Where I work, we do tell them.  Most don't listen.  Then what?

It's worse than that.  We lie to students and tell them they are succeeding when they actually aren't.  A significant fraction of our CS graduates cannot write code on their own.  (They find and copy vaguely relevant code off the Internet and make basically random changes until it passes the tests.)  By the time they get a job and get fired after a few months because they can't do it, we've collected the tuition and (more importantly) counted another successful student in the statistics we report to the public.  Most of the time, the student doesn't even blame us; they blame the employer firing them for having unfair expectations.

But, doesn't your university's CS degree get de-valued in the eyes of the employer, so then that employer avoids hiring your future graduates, which de-values your university's CS degree even further?



The university administration's short-term concern is for attrition and graduation rate; the department's long-term interest is preserving their reputation. These two will be in conflict in many institutions.

very true
The short-term concern for administrators is really on the tactical (or even transactional short-term), regardless of what they may say is their strategic long-term outlook for the institution. I don't know who said it in the fora, but the quote (paraphrased) is brilliant: "Administrators rent and are in it for the short-term before they move somewhere else to rent, whereas faculty own and are in it for the long-term."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: flying_tree on July 21, 2023, 06:15:53 PM
test
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: quasihumanist on July 23, 2023, 03:45:12 PM
Quote from: lightning on July 20, 2023, 10:35:04 PM
Quote from: quasihumanist on July 20, 2023, 08:12:42 PM
Quote from: FishProf on July 20, 2023, 09:06:20 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 20, 2023, 04:29:47 AMSure, but we owe them some honesty about their chances when they're offered admission. If, based on incoming grades, etc. we can predict a given student has a less than 50% chance of completing, they should know that when it's still easy to choose something else where their chance of success would be greater.

Do you work somewhere where you don't tell students that?

Where I work, we do tell them.  Most don't listen.  Then what?

It's worse than that.  We lie to students and tell them they are succeeding when they actually aren't.  A significant fraction of our CS graduates cannot write code on their own.  (They find and copy vaguely relevant code off the Internet and make basically random changes until it passes the tests.)  By the time they get a job and get fired after a few months because they can't do it, we've collected the tuition and (more importantly) counted another successful student in the statistics we report to the public.  Most of the time, the student doesn't even blame us; they blame the employer firing them for having unfair expectations.

But, doesn't your university's CS degree get de-valued in the eyes of the employer, so then that employer avoids hiring your future graduates, which de-values your university's CS degree even further?

There are a few reasons why this isn't a problem:

First - it's not a problem for the students who graduate with a decent GPA.  Employers who care can easily find that number.

Second - the employers who are hiring our graduates with 2.5 GPAs are not big companies with data about how employees with various backgrounds end up performing.  They are smaller outfits desperate to get any warm body who might be able to code.  There are so many of these outfits, and so many universities, that there is not much reputation effects in this marketplace.

Third - many of the folks who graduate with poor grades are capable slackers.  They get in a situation where their performance actually matters and shape up.  So some smaller outfits will have good impressions of our graduates, and anyone looking for a job just needs one.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on July 24, 2023, 10:10:20 AM
Quote from: quasihumanist on July 23, 2023, 03:45:12 PM
Quote from: lightning on July 20, 2023, 10:35:04 PM
Quote from: quasihumanist on July 20, 2023, 08:12:42 PM
Quote from: FishProf on July 20, 2023, 09:06:20 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 20, 2023, 04:29:47 AMSure, but we owe them some honesty about their chances when they're offered admission. If, based on incoming grades, etc. we can predict a given student has a less than 50% chance of completing, they should know that when it's still easy to choose something else where their chance of success would be greater.

Do you work somewhere where you don't tell students that?

Where I work, we do tell them.  Most don't listen.  Then what?

It's worse than that.  We lie to students and tell them they are succeeding when they actually aren't.  A significant fraction of our CS graduates cannot write code on their own.  (They find and copy vaguely relevant code off the Internet and make basically random changes until it passes the tests.)  By the time they get a job and get fired after a few months because they can't do it, we've collected the tuition and (more importantly) counted another successful student in the statistics we report to the public.  Most of the time, the student doesn't even blame us; they blame the employer firing them for having unfair expectations.

But, doesn't your university's CS degree get de-valued in the eyes of the employer, so then that employer avoids hiring your future graduates, which de-values your university's CS degree even further?

There are a few reasons why this isn't a problem:

First - it's not a problem for the students who graduate with a decent GPA.  Employers who care can easily find that number.

Second - the employers who are hiring our graduates with 2.5 GPAs are not big companies with data about how employees with various backgrounds end up performing.  They are smaller outfits desperate to get any warm body who might be able to code.  There are so many of these outfits, and so many universities, that there is not much reputation effects in this marketplace.

Third - many of the folks who graduate with poor grades are capable slackers.  They get in a situation where their performance actually matters and shape up.  So some smaller outfits will have good impressions of our graduates, and anyone looking for a job just needs one.

Many larger companies have their own training program so students can learn how their current systems work and how to manage within them. Students aren't coding from scratch to write the next Google. They are updating processes and features within an existing architecture.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: BadWolf on July 28, 2023, 07:14:46 AM
Read today that Colgate University served notice to Middle States...not that they are closing but they are opting to switch accreditors. Anyone know more to this story? I don't think it's fiscally motivated, they've always been pretty flush with money.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Scout on July 30, 2023, 12:00:38 PM
They're switching to NECHE? Did I read that correctly?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on July 30, 2023, 12:02:23 PM
Very not fiscal. they have 1.5 billion in endowment (approx).
Probably the precise opposite: They feel they can dictate the terms, so they are. I don't know why though.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on July 31, 2023, 05:48:32 PM
Alderson Broaddus in West Virginia (https://wvmetronews.com/2023/07/31/emergency-meeting-renewed-over-imminent-material-financial-loss-at-alderson-broaddus/). An urgent shut down by the end of the year. Their accredditor will only allow them to bring in seniors for the fall semester. The tipoff? "Alderson Broaddus has been asking for donations from alumni to meet payroll, both their last payroll and their next payroll that is due this Friday."

The school has had about 750 students, $37 million in liabilities and an annulal operating deficit of $1 million. The city was about to shut off their utilities because they are about $60k in arrears.

This school was founded as a Baptist college, so it hits the dire-straits trifecta of formerly church-supported, small and rural. Renaming itself a University in 2013 did not help.

Nearby West Virginia Wesleyan College is offering express transfer applications to students who need to find another school by the beginning of this semester.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on August 01, 2023, 06:33:05 AM
Quote from: Hibush on July 31, 2023, 05:48:32 PMAlderson Broaddus in West Virginia (https://wvmetronews.com/2023/07/31/emergency-meeting-renewed-over-imminent-material-financial-loss-at-alderson-broaddus/). An urgent shut down by the end of the year. Their accredditor will only allow them to bring in seniors for the fall semester. The tipoff? "Alderson Broaddus has been asking for donations from alumni to meet payroll, both their last payroll and their next payroll that is due this Friday."

The school has had about 750 students, $37 million in liabilities and an annulal operating deficit of $1 million. The city was about to shut off their utilities because they are about $60k in arrears.

This school was founded as a Baptist college, so it hits the dire-straits trifecta of formerly church-supported, small and rural. Renaming itself a University in 2013 did not help.

Nearby West Virginia Wesleyan College is offering express transfer applications to students who need to find another school by the beginning of this semester.


Honest question-- why do institutions like this try to hold on long past what should be pretty obviously the point of no return? Surely it would have been better for them to make a decision to close long before they couldn't make payroll, establish a teach-out plan, and give students and staff time to deal with the transition. Do they delude themselves into thinking they can turn things around? Or is it just a grift for the admin to keep pulling their salaries until the money is really all gone?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on August 01, 2023, 07:55:14 AM
Quote from: Puget on August 01, 2023, 06:33:05 AM
Quote from: Hibush on July 31, 2023, 05:48:32 PMAlderson Broaddus in West Virginia (https://wvmetronews.com/2023/07/31/emergency-meeting-renewed-over-imminent-material-financial-loss-at-alderson-broaddus/). An urgent shut down by the end of the year. Their accredditor will only allow them to bring in seniors for the fall semester. The tipoff? "Alderson Broaddus has been asking for donations from alumni to meet payroll, both their last payroll and their next payroll that is due this Friday."

The school has had about 750 students, $37 million in liabilities and an annulal operating deficit of $1 million. The city was about to shut off their utilities because they are about $60k in arrears.

This school was founded as a Baptist college, so it hits the dire-straits trifecta of formerly church-supported, small and rural. Renaming itself a University in 2013 did not help.

Nearby West Virginia Wesleyan College is offering express transfer applications to students who need to find another school by the beginning of this semester.


Honest question-- why do institutions like this try to hold on long past what should be pretty obviously the point of no return? Surely it would have been better for them to make a decision to close long before they couldn't make payroll, establish a teach-out plan, and give students and staff time to deal with the transition. Do they delude themselves into thinking they can turn things around? Or is it just a grift for the admin to keep pulling their salaries until the money is really all gone?

As polly said years ago about her Super Dinky College, these schools generally have a long history of operating on very thin margins.  They've usually had more than one close call with closing at some point in their history.  Somehow or other they managed to make it then, so faculty and admins and alumni who really love their school want very badly to believe that they can manage to pull it off again.  And so they become vulnerable to falling down the slippery slope between persisting bravely in the face of trouble and falling into self-delusion regarding their chances.  Or to put it another way, they're just too close to the situation to look at it objectively.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 01, 2023, 08:27:19 AM
Quote from: Puget on August 01, 2023, 06:33:05 AMHonest question-- why do institutions like this try to hold on long past what should be pretty obviously the point of no return?

Who wants to be the president who let the college sink after hitting the COVID iceberg?  That would be a terrible legacy.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on August 01, 2023, 10:13:10 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 01, 2023, 08:27:19 AM
Quote from: Puget on August 01, 2023, 06:33:05 AMHonest question-- why do institutions like this try to hold on long past what should be pretty obviously the point of no return?

Who wants to be the president who let the college sink after hitting the COVID iceberg?  That would be a terrible legacy.

Sure, but isn't it worse to be the president who couldn't make payroll and had their accreditor pull the plug for them? At least with a planned closure they could say they brought it in for as gentle a landing as they could and helped the students and staff have the best outcome they could. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on August 01, 2023, 10:15:08 AM
Quote from: apl68 on August 01, 2023, 07:55:14 AMAs polly said years ago about her Super Dinky College, these schools generally have a long history of operating on very thin margins.  They've usually had more than one close call with closing at some point in their history.  Somehow or other they managed to make it then, so faculty and admins and alumni who really love their school want very badly to believe that they can manage to pull it off again.  And so they become vulnerable to falling down the slippery slope between persisting bravely in the face of trouble and falling into self-delusion regarding their chances.  Or to put it another way, they're just too close to the situation to look at it objectively.

That makes psychological sense, but doesn't paint the competence of the admin and board in a very good light. Anyone in those positions really needs to be able to keep their objectivity, as much as they may wish things were otherwise.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Stockmann on August 01, 2023, 12:11:16 PM
Quote from: Puget on August 01, 2023, 10:15:08 AM
Quote from: apl68 on August 01, 2023, 07:55:14 AMAs polly said years ago about her Super Dinky College, these schools generally have a long history of operating on very thin margins.  They've usually had more than one close call with closing at some point in their history.  Somehow or other they managed to make it then, so faculty and admins and alumni who really love their school want very badly to believe that they can manage to pull it off again.  And so they become vulnerable to falling down the slippery slope between persisting bravely in the face of trouble and falling into self-delusion regarding their chances.  Or to put it another way, they're just too close to the situation to look at it objectively.

That makes psychological sense, but doesn't paint the competence of the admin and board in a very good light. Anyone in those positions really needs to be able to keep their objectivity, as much as they may wish things were otherwise.

If the board and admin were competent, they probably wouldn't have closed outright in the first place, they would've probably managed to at least merge with or get taken over by another institution. It's not just things like small or rural that are likely to describe institutions that went under - leadership surely matters.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on August 01, 2023, 12:52:00 PM
Quote from: Puget on August 01, 2023, 06:33:05 AM
Quote from: Hibush on July 31, 2023, 05:48:32 PMAlderson Broaddus in West Virginia (https://wvmetronews.com/2023/07/31/emergency-meeting-renewed-over-imminent-material-financial-loss-at-alderson-broaddus/). An urgent shut down by the end of the year. Their accredditor will only allow them to bring in seniors for the fall semester. The tipoff? "Alderson Broaddus has been asking for donations from alumni to meet payroll, both their last payroll and their next payroll that is due this Friday."

The school has had about 750 students, $37 million in liabilities and an annulal operating deficit of $1 million. The city was about to shut off their utilities because they are about $60k in arrears.

This school was founded as a Baptist college, so it hits the dire-straits trifecta of formerly church-supported, small and rural. Renaming itself a University in 2013 did not help.

Nearby West Virginia Wesleyan College is offering express transfer applications to students who need to find another school by the beginning of this semester.


Honest question-- why do institutions like this try to hold on long past what should be pretty obviously the point of no return? Surely it would have been better for them to make a decision to close long before they couldn't make payroll, establish a teach-out plan, and give students and staff time to deal with the transition. Do they delude themselves into thinking they can turn things around? Or is it just a grift for the admin to keep pulling their salaries until the money is really all gone?

Because they can!

"The university has struggled to pay its bills before. It defaulted on a roughly $36 million bond in 2015, which had been issued to pay for new student housing and an athletic stadium." That's a free gift. Only non-profits can pull off tricks like this and survive in their old form. A for-profit would get taken over by new management and get restructured or be liquidated.

Then, in 2018 the college gets a loan from the US Dept of Agriculture of $27,755,000 through the Community Facilities Direct Loan Program. Why would anybody lend $27.8 million to an entity that had defaulted three years earlier? I don't know that the most misguided hedge fund would do something like that.

So, they been through $54 million of free money and can't pay their utility bills. Now there's no more free money. Shoulda' ended eight years ago at the latest.



Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 01, 2023, 03:29:53 PM
Quote from: Puget on August 01, 2023, 10:13:10 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 01, 2023, 08:27:19 AM
Quote from: Puget on August 01, 2023, 06:33:05 AMHonest question-- why do institutions like this try to hold on long past what should be pretty obviously the point of no return?

Who wants to be the president who let the college sink after hitting the COVID iceberg?  That would be a terrible legacy.

Sure, but isn't it worse to be the president who couldn't make payroll and had their accreditor pull the plug for them? At least with a planned closure they could say they brought it in for as gentle a landing as they could and helped the students and staff have the best outcome they could. 

Well, partly I'm talking out my wahoo (who knows why crazy people do crazy things?), but people are not always rational, and there must be intense psychological pressure from the board, alumni, news media, current students, and faculty who, in today's market, may very well be looking at the death of their careers (One faculty at Akron is quoted as saying "I feel like my career has been assassinated").  And who wants to leave a shattered college as one's legacy?  Conversely, who wouldn't want to pilot a college through the socioeconomic shrapnel and be a war hero/heroine?

Our former prez left very abruptly----actually in December, well before the date he suddenly set for himself the preceding August----and we all took that as a bad sign.  Our own hope is that the uni can attract a really dynamic new leader.  The rat who jumped ship clearly saw it sinking and decided he didn't want to be remember as the dude who guided our mediocre R2 to the seafloor. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 01, 2023, 06:31:06 PM
Quote from: dismalist on August 01, 2023, 12:52:00 PMThen, in 2018 the college gets a loan from the US Dept of Agriculture of $27,755,000 through the Community Facilities Direct Loan Program. Why would anybody lend $27.8 million to an entity that had defaulted three years earlier? I don't know that the most misguided hedge fund would do something like that.


That loan stands out as bizzare to me as well. Perhaps the primary goal was to inject $27 million into that part of West Virgnia to keep the local economy afloat. As long as it was paid out to people, and they spent in on other stuff, maybe the real goal was met. I'm speculating--you know whether that makes any economic sense (disregarding the school, it just provided cover for the schem.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on August 01, 2023, 06:52:16 PM
Quote from: Hibush on August 01, 2023, 06:31:06 PM
Quote from: dismalist on August 01, 2023, 12:52:00 PMThen, in 2018 the college gets a loan from the US Dept of Agriculture of $27,755,000 through the Community Facilities Direct Loan Program. Why would anybody lend $27.8 million to an entity that had defaulted three years earlier? I don't know that the most misguided hedge fund would do something like that.


That loan stands out as bizzare to me as well. Perhaps the primary goal was to inject $27 million into that part of West Virgnia to keep the local economy afloat. As long as it was paid out to people, and they spent in on other stuff, maybe the real goal was met. I'm speculating--you know whether that makes any economic sense (disregarding the school, it just provided cover for the scheme.)

I'm sure that the goal was to promote or preserve economic development. Whatever one may think about how to do this, it's surely not a good way to give it to a proven derelict educational institution.

Hell, give the money away directly!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 09, 2023, 01:08:53 PM
I missed the announcement this spring that Medaille in Buffalo, NY (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2023/05/16/medaille-university-will-close-august) is closing this month.

Followers of this thread will recognize the pattern: small, bad managment, area with lots of excess higher ed capacity, no endowment, big debt, a pointless and unjustified rebranding as University last year, and a pointless extravagant capital project.

This recent blog post detailing the mess (https://academeblog.org/2023/07/25/this-college-didnt-just-die-it-was-murdered/) brought it to my attention.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on August 10, 2023, 07:43:45 AM
Alfred University, which I assume must be in the same region, is busy pursuing Medaille Students:


https://www.alfred.edu/admissions/medaille/


Which is good for Medaille students who need a new place to go, I guess.  It does smack a bit of somebody warming their hands and roasting weenies by the fire of their neighbors' burning house.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on August 10, 2023, 08:47:58 AM
Quote from: apl68 on August 10, 2023, 07:43:45 AMAlfred University, which I assume must be in the same region, is busy pursuing Medaille Students:


https://www.alfred.edu/admissions/medaille/


Which is good for Medaille students who need a new place to go, I guess.  It does smack a bit of somebody warming their hands and roasting weenies by the fire of their neighbors' burning house.

If the fire department has given up on it, while it may look awkward, it's basically making the best of a bad situation, since there's no other action that could save it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Scout on August 10, 2023, 09:18:17 AM
Quote from: apl68 on August 10, 2023, 07:43:45 AMAlfred University, which I assume must be in the same region, is busy pursuing Medaille Students:


https://www.alfred.edu/admissions/medaille/


Which is good for Medaille students who need a new place to go, I guess.  It does smack a bit of somebody warming their hands and roasting weenies by the fire of their neighbors' burning house.

It's likely a requirement to have partnerships for the students. I was at an institution that was a landing spot for a closing college. They were required to find partner institutions who had to put processes in place to help graduate these displaced students. 

ETA: That's what they are referring to here from their website:  "First thing's first. It's critical that you let us know you're considering Alfred University as your teach-out school of choice for the Fall semester. "
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on August 10, 2023, 05:52:49 PM
Alfred is a two-hour drive from Buffalo.

Quote from: apl68 on August 10, 2023, 07:43:45 AMAlfred University, which I assume must be in the same region, is busy pursuing Medaille Students:


https://www.alfred.edu/admissions/medaille/


Which is good for Medaille students who need a new place to go, I guess.  It does smack a bit of somebody warming their hands and roasting weenies by the fire of their neighbors' burning house.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on August 10, 2023, 07:03:28 PM
Quote from: Mobius on August 10, 2023, 05:52:49 PMAlfred is a two-hour drive from Buffalo.

Quote from: apl68 on August 10, 2023, 07:43:45 AMAlfred University, which I assume must be in the same region, is busy pursuing Medaille Students:


https://www.alfred.edu/admissions/medaille/


Which is good for Medaille students who need a new place to go, I guess.  It does smack a bit of somebody warming their hands and roasting weenies by the fire of their neighbors' burning house.

S'mores taste better when there is a whiff of schadenfreude in the smoke, no?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Golazo on August 11, 2023, 05:21:04 PM
WVU plans to cut 7% of its faculty, including ALL of its languages. I guess this is the end of WVU as an R1:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/faculty-issues/tenure/2023/08/11/wvu-proposes-cutting-7-flagship-campus-faculty-all-languages
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 11, 2023, 07:30:44 PM
Quote from: Golazo on August 11, 2023, 05:21:04 PMWVU plans to cut 7% of its faculty, including ALL of its languages. I guess this is the end of WVU as an R1:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/faculty-issues/tenure/2023/08/11/wvu-proposes-cutting-7-flagship-campus-faculty-all-languages

A Reddit update:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Professors/comments/15oe781/massive_cut_at_west_virginia_university/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 12, 2023, 05:50:22 AM
Quote from: Golazo on August 11, 2023, 05:21:04 PMWVU plans to cut 7% of its faculty, including ALL of its languages. I guess this is the end of WVU as an R1:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/faculty-issues/tenure/2023/08/11/wvu-proposes-cutting-7-flagship-campus-faculty-all-languages

That may not be the case. The internal communication indicated that departments meeting R1 criteria in funding and graduate training were exempt from review.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dlehman on August 12, 2023, 06:53:03 AM
Regarding West Virginia University, it is worth noting their ongoing battle with their basketball coach.  After a verbal miscue, his salary was cut by $1 million (! I think he was making $4 million/year), then he had a DUI which led to his resignation although he claims he did not resign - this case is still pending, I believe.  While his salary is only (!) 10% of the budget deficit, it is a remarkable amount of money for a basketball coach at a public university.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Golazo on August 12, 2023, 08:25:23 AM

That may not be the case. The internal communication indicated that departments meeting R1 criteria in funding and graduate training were exempt from review.
[/quote]

My point was that it would be hard to have a meaningful graduate program in a lot of areas that WVU offers without any languages. Can you do history without languages? Can you do international political science? etc. I mean: "the university is exploring alternative methods of delivery such as a partnership with an online language app" sounds more like a dubious for-profit.

Sadly there is going to be more of this in WV.   
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on August 12, 2023, 09:11:58 PM
Is any PhD in any discipline/ dept, from WVU, considered a decent degree by any scholarly association?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ptr_flint on August 14, 2023, 06:38:51 AM
Does anyone know what's happening at Flint? Just saw this article recently.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/education/2023/07/18/hancellor-deba-dutta-university-of-michigan-flint/70426852007/

Seems like a stark contrast from their goal a year ago on "transformative" changes to make the school viable again. I thought the whole point of bringing in the consultants and the proposed 100$ million investment was a hope for improvement. Seems at this point even the chancellor gave up and is running

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: BadWolf on August 15, 2023, 01:30:02 PM
QuoteMy point was that it would be hard to have a meaningful graduate program in a lot of areas that WVU offers without any languages. Can you do history without languages? Can you do international political science? etc. I mean: "the university is exploring alternative methods of delivery such as a partnership with an online language app" sounds more like a dubious for-profit.

Sadly there is going to be more of this in WV.   

None of these things have a large impact on making a school an R1. Engineering and sciences, on the other hand, have a HUGE impact.

Carnegie Classification: institutions that awarded at least 20 research/scholarship doctoral degrees during the update year and also institutions with below 20 research/scholarship doctoral degrees that awarded at least 30 professional practice doctoral degrees in at least 2 programs. Excludes Special Focus Institutions and Tribal Colleges and Universities.

The first two categories (R1 and R2) include only institutions that awarded at least 20 research/scholarship doctoral degrees and had at least $5 million in total research expenditures (as reported through the National Science Foundation (NSF) Higher Education Research & Development Survey (HERD)).


Sponsored Research in the Humanities and Social Sciences are pennies compared to Sciences. There's just no getting around that. Plus WVU has a Medical School. They're not in any danger of losing their R1 status.

There are 146 R1's, in case anyone was interested: https://carnegieclassifications.acenet.edu/institutions/?basic2021__du%5B%5D=15

And yes, WVU is a well-respected school in many circles. I'm sorry if you think the West Virginia stigma works against them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on August 15, 2023, 10:37:15 PM
Any serious scholar in a wide variety of disciplines (not all, of course), not just humanities, must be able to at least read German and probably also French.   Etc.   It is not possible, simply put, for Bubbaville St U to retain its serious university status without foreign languages.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on August 16, 2023, 07:14:14 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 15, 2023, 10:37:15 PMAny serious scholar in a wide variety of disciplines (not all, of course), not just humanities, must be able to at least read German and probably also French.   Etc.   It is not possible, simply put, for Bubbaville St U to retain its serious university status without foreign languages.
Not that I'm in favor of eliminating languages at all, but what fields outside of the humanities do you think require reading German and/or French? If you're thinking of anything in the sciences, you are about a hundred years out of date-- even the Germans and French largely publish in English, which is the international language of science.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 16, 2023, 07:29:59 AM
Honestly, one can be a humanities scholar without speaking anything other than English.

 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on August 16, 2023, 07:54:19 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 16, 2023, 07:29:59 AMHonestly, one can be a humanities scholar without speaking anything other than English.

 

Totally. I never hear anyone talk about their reading material in French or German, except for French Canadians.

Furthermore, some people learned their ancient Greek or Latin in a Clasics dept, not Foreign Languages.

One school I teach has a Languages Dept. They have a bunch of minors don't offer any majors. There are 4 faculty in French, 4 in Spanish, and 2 in Italian, but the faculty member in German doesn't seem to exist when you search for them. That may just be because the search function is so bad. I expect a large number of language classes are taught by adjunct faculty. I was surprised there are that many language faculty -- I've never encountered them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: BadWolf on August 16, 2023, 09:51:47 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 15, 2023, 10:37:15 PMAny serious scholar in a wide variety of disciplines (not all, of course), not just humanities, must be able to at least read German and probably also French.   Etc.   It is not possible, simply put, for Bubbaville St U to retain its serious university status without foreign languages.

A sampling of R1's with no/limited graduate-level foreign language representation:

Colorado School of Mines - none
University of Rochester - none
Virginia Tech - Master's level only
University of Maryland, Baltimore County - none
University of California, San Diego
University of California, Santa Cruz

Honestly, when I found that Phi Beta Kappa does not recognize ASL as a legitimate foreign language, it really changed my whole perspective on language learning and communication.

But alas...this digresses a little too far from the spirit of this forum topic.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Scout on August 16, 2023, 11:00:30 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 15, 2023, 10:37:15 PM...It is not possible, simply put, for Bubbaville St U to retain its serious university status without foreign languages.
"Bubbaville St U"? Seriously- how patronizing is that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on August 16, 2023, 12:49:17 PM
Quote from: Puget on August 16, 2023, 07:14:14 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 15, 2023, 10:37:15 PMAny serious scholar in a wide variety of disciplines (not all, of course), not just humanities, must be able to at least read German and probably also French.   Etc.   It is not possible, simply put, for Bubbaville St U to retain its serious university status without foreign languages.
Not that I'm in favor of eliminating languages at all, but what fields outside of the humanities do you think require reading German and/or French? If you're thinking of anything in the sciences, you are about a hundred years out of date-- even the Germans and French largely publish in English, which is the international language of science.

In the US, I see a stronger argument for Mandarin and Spanish in natural science, and probably in most social sciences as well.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on August 16, 2023, 01:17:32 PM
The Chronicle of Higher Ed has a series of articles posted today regarding schools that are somewhere between struggling and circling the drain. This profile- of St. Andrew's College University in Laurinburg NC has it all. Desperation moves away from liberal arts, a sudden influx of college athletes, massive deferred maintenance,  and a partnership with a for profit mogul. And yet they continue to hold out hope.

It sounds a lot like what Polly described at Super-Dinky.

https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-college-that-refused-to-die (https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-college-that-refused-to-die)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on August 16, 2023, 02:24:46 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on August 16, 2023, 01:17:32 PMThe Chronicle of Higher Ed has a series of articles posted today regarding schools that are somewhere between struggling and circling the drain. This profile- of St. Andrew's College University in Laurinburg NC has it all. Desperation moves away from liberal arts, a sudden influx of college athletes, massive deferred maintenance,  and a partnership with a for profit mogul. And yet they continue to hold out hope.

It sounds a lot like what Polly described at Super-Dinky.

https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-college-that-refused-to-die (https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-college-that-refused-to-die)

St. Andrew's sounds a lot more egregious than what polly described at Super-Dinky.  The campus is practically in ruins from a hurricane a couple of years ago.  Dorms sometimes only have cold water.  Classrooms don't always have heat.  There have been multiple reports of sexual assaults.  The campus sounds like descriptions of a war-torn Third World country. 

And there was that partnership with a crooked for-profit school that encouraged failing students--of which there were many, the school having apparently rid itself of academic standards for enrollees--to transfer mid-semester to phony Mickey Mouse four-week online "courses" to maintain their eligibility requirements. 

Those poor students were paying a fortune to pursue a pathetic dream of playing "college-level" sports, on a semi-ruined campus, in moldy uniforms, getting cheated every step of the way.  Many were reportedly first-generation students, which means they and their families probably didn't even know enough to realize that they were being cheated in far more ways than just the sub-standard facilities.

It's just a disgrace.  If I were a St. Andrew's alum from back in the day, I'd feel ashamed for my alma mater.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on August 17, 2023, 08:09:36 AM
I agree that it's an extreme case. But what struck me was how Polly and others here have identified these red flags. I'd say any college that is exhibiting at least two of these "symptoms" is one to be concerned about.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on August 17, 2023, 08:38:58 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on August 17, 2023, 08:09:36 AMI agree that it's an extreme case. But what struck me was how Polly and others here have identified these red flags. I'd say any college that is exhibiting at least two of these "symptoms" is one to be concerned about.

That sounds like a fair assessment.  And unfortunately there are a lot of them.  It's striking how many of St. Andrews' strategies--let's eliminate the humanities (which were originally central to the school's mission) and promote programs that sell!--let's start sports teams to lure paying students to campus!--let's partner with a for-profit so we can go big with online ed!--are the same ones being pursued by so many other colleges that have appeared on this thread.

I found spork's comment above to the effect that most of these failing schools don't offer anything worthwhile and distinctive rather dismissive.  But spork's not wrong about what these schools have become in their later years.  What saddens me is that there was a time when most of them truly did offer something different (Maybe not so much Pine Manor and other jumped-up trade schools like that).  But what they offered, for an assortment of reasons, isn't enough in today's world to keep them from falling on hard times.  They take increasingly desperate measures to keep afloat, sell out, abandon what once made them distinctive and worthwhile, perhaps even become no better than some of the for-profit scam schools.  They become ruined shells of their former selves before they finally go out of business.  It's a tragedy that what were often once worthwhile institutions have come to this.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on August 17, 2023, 10:55:01 AM
What's even a greater tragedy is that neither the feds nor more or less any state gov does anything about it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on August 17, 2023, 11:22:00 AM
Regarding St. Andrews, the article is very informative, showing exactly the idiocy and incompetence at each of many steps. With shrinking cohorts starting four-year college, some institutions must shrink or die. The worst run will die, indeed, must die.

The president
QuoteMalik estimated that the university needed a minimum of $100 million to address hurricane damage, deferred maintenance, and academic programs.

There is absolutely no reason for anybody to give or lend $100 million to that failure on a lake. It'd just be pouring good money after bad. Forced bankruptcy by the State is the best answer.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 17, 2023, 03:42:38 PM
Non-paywalled version:

https://www.theassemblync.com/education/higher-education/st-andrews-university-survival/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on August 18, 2023, 07:38:45 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 17, 2023, 03:42:38 PMNon-paywalled version:

https://www.theassemblync.com/education/higher-education/st-andrews-university-survival/

The text is the same on this version, but it appears to have more/different photos.  There's a photo of Mecklenberg Residence Hall (now derelict) that made me do a double-take.  I thought at first that it was a photo from the campus of Henderson State University!  The building looks enough like one at HSU (not derelict) to suggest that they may have had the same architects.

It looks like St. Andrew's had such a beautiful campus before the storm wrecked so much of it....
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: treeoflife on August 23, 2023, 09:11:46 AM
Was this mentioned here before?
https://allianceu.edu/about-au/accreditations/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: BadWolf on August 25, 2023, 06:48:04 PM
And another:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/institutions/private-nonprofit-colleges/2023/08/25/another-small-college-hodges-university
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: namazu on September 10, 2023, 03:29:22 PM
"Union Institute cancels fall term as financial issues mount" (https://www.wvxu.org/education/2023-09-08/union-institute-cancels-fall-term)

From the article:
Quote from: Zack Carreon, WVXUThe news comes just a few weeks after Union Institute decided to delay the start of the semester until Sept. 11. The university usually starts classes in late August, but now it's planning to begin the year on Nov. 6.

In the message, Frederick insists the school has no plans to close and goes on to say the cancelation is important for the well-being of students and the long-term future of the university. With more time, Frederick says Union Institute can ensure financial aid will be available to all eligible students when classes resume.

According to students and faculty, Union Institute hasn't paid many of its faculty members in months, and students who were supposed to receive their federal financial aid refunds in July are still waiting for their money.

They appear (not surprisingly) to be in danger of losing accreditation. 

Sounds dire, all right.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 10, 2023, 05:12:46 PM
Quote from: namazu on September 10, 2023, 03:29:22 PM"Union Institute cancels fall term as financial issues mount" (https://www.wvxu.org/education/2023-09-08/union-institute-cancels-fall-term)

From the article:
Quote from: Zack Carreon, WVXUThe news comes just a few weeks after Union Institute decided to delay the start of the semester until Sept. 11. The university usually starts classes in late August, but now it's planning to begin the year on Nov. 6.

In the message, Frederick insists the school has no plans to close and goes on to say the cancelation is important for the well-being of students and the long-term future of the university. With more time, Frederick says Union Institute can ensure financial aid will be available to all eligible students when classes resume.

According to students and faculty, Union Institute hasn't paid many of its faculty members in months, and students who were supposed to receive their federal financial aid refunds in July are still waiting for their money.

They appear (not surprisingly) to be in danger of losing accreditation. 

Sounds dire, all right.

"On Thursday, Union Institute's accreditor The Higher Learning Commission assigned the school a Financial Distress designation." 
You'd think HLC would issue that warning before faculty had gone unpaid for months.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: namazu on September 10, 2023, 06:47:39 PM
Quote from: Hibush on September 10, 2023, 05:12:46 PM
Quote from: namazu on September 10, 2023, 03:29:22 PM"Union Institute cancels fall term as financial issues mount" (https://www.wvxu.org/education/2023-09-08/union-institute-cancels-fall-term)

From the article:
Quote from: Zack Carreon, WVXUThe news comes just a few weeks after Union Institute decided to delay the start of the semester until Sept. 11. The university usually starts classes in late August, but now it's planning to begin the year on Nov. 6.

In the message, Frederick insists the school has no plans to close and goes on to say the cancelation is important for the well-being of students and the long-term future of the university. With more time, Frederick says Union Institute can ensure financial aid will be available to all eligible students when classes resume.

According to students and faculty, Union Institute hasn't paid many of its faculty members in months, and students who were supposed to receive their federal financial aid refunds in July are still waiting for their money.

They appear (not surprisingly) to be in danger of losing accreditation. 

Sounds dire, all right.

"On Thursday, Union Institute's accreditor The Higher Learning Commission assigned the school a Financial Distress designation." 
You'd think HLC would issue that warning before faculty had gone unpaid for months.
Yeah!  And yet...
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on September 10, 2023, 07:53:38 PM
Quote from: namazu on September 10, 2023, 06:47:39 PM
Quote from: Hibush on September 10, 2023, 05:12:46 PM
Quote from: namazu on September 10, 2023, 03:29:22 PM"Union Institute cancels fall term as financial issues mount" (https://www.wvxu.org/education/2023-09-08/union-institute-cancels-fall-term)

From the article:
Quote from: Zack Carreon, WVXUThe news comes just a few weeks after Union Institute decided to delay the start of the semester until Sept. 11. The university usually starts classes in late August, but now it's planning to begin the year on Nov. 6.

In the message, Frederick insists the school has no plans to close and goes on to say the cancelation is important for the well-being of students and the long-term future of the university. With more time, Frederick says Union Institute can ensure financial aid will be available to all eligible students when classes resume.

According to students and faculty, Union Institute hasn't paid many of its faculty members in months, and students who were supposed to receive their federal financial aid refunds in July are still waiting for their money.

They appear (not surprisingly) to be in danger of losing accreditation. 

Sounds dire, all right.

"On Thursday, Union Institute's accreditor The Higher Learning Commission assigned the school a Financial Distress designation." 
You'd think HLC would issue that warning before faculty had gone unpaid for months.
Yeah!  And yet...

The HLC would have gotten around to it sooner, but the HLC first had to make sure that Union's SLOs were standardized and measurable, unit faculty were collecting lotsa data about learning, unit heads were making reports, deans were making reports of reports, Academic Affairs were making reports of reports of reports, and everyone was closing the feedback loop and muttering some stuff about Bloom's Taxonomy.  jk
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 11, 2023, 06:31:39 AM
Quote from: lightning on September 10, 2023, 07:53:38 PMThe HLC would have gotten around to it sooner, but the HLC first had to make sure that Union's SLOs were standardized and measurable, unit faculty were collecting lotsa data about learning, unit heads were making reports, deans were making reports of reports, Academic Affairs were making reports of reports of reports, and everyone was closing the feedback loop and muttering some stuff about Bloom's Taxonomy. 

Concisely accurate! HoF (http://thefora.org/index.php?topic=103.msg132872#msg132872).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on September 11, 2023, 11:44:21 AM
OMG! That is quite an honor. Are there any prizes? Steak knives? A free semester at the HPER building? Use of the D1 Coaches locker room? No committee work for a year? I get to keep my job?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 11, 2023, 05:30:11 PM
Quote from: lightning on September 11, 2023, 11:44:21 AMOMG! That is quite an honor. Are there any prizes? Steak knives? A free semester at the HPER building? Use of the D1 Coaches locker room? No committee work for a year? I get to keep my job?
You get to submit an extra report on honors to the unit head! Restrain yourself from using the steak knives on anyone.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on September 12, 2023, 11:58:09 AM
Haven't heard of it. I have heard of about 10% of those that have closed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on September 19, 2023, 12:53:57 PM
More on WVU. The statement re a shortage of language teachers in high schools is spot on. My old high school, where I and my two sisters graduated in the 70s has no Spanish teacher. I've mentioned that both sisters learned Spanish well enough to start as juniors in those courses and graduate in three years (one double majored in Spanish and Portuguese with a minor in Italian).

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/19/opinions/west-virginia-university-gordon-gee-humanities-cuts-krebs/index.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 19, 2023, 01:41:22 PM
SUNY Potsdam. (https://www.potsdam.edu/about/leadership/office-president/campus-remarks/financial-stability-plan-announcement)

It has gotten a lot smaller, in part because of location (very cold and very remote) that can't be changed. It also serves a region where the population is increasingly hostile to education.

The goal is the only one that works. "we need to reimagine our campus as serving a steady enrollment of 2,500 students, with hopes of growing to 3,000 or more one day,  reflecting the reality of the higher education marketplace—instead of building a budget around unrealistic expectations of returning to historic highs." That echoes the situation at WVU pretty closely, except the school is only a tenth as big.

To do this, they will shut the 14 departments that have lost a lot of enrolment and are now to small. That also echoes WVU. (Note that WVU is cutting 10% of the majors, but that cut affects only 1% of the students.)

I hope president Smith handles this reduction more gracefully than president  Gee.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 19, 2023, 03:01:47 PM
Well, she lays out the case pretty cogently.  Enrollment is off by two-fifths from its peak, and can't reasonably be expected to come back to that.  There's a structural deficit in finances of over 20%.  Low-hanging administrative fruit has apparently already been plucked.  So there's just no way out of a managed decline that will cost some people their jobs and result in the shutting down of majors and of certain facilities.

She's eliminating a couple of fairly high admin positions, to show that it's not all going to fall on the faculty.  There is of course talk of expanding online offerings, but no promises that the school can work miracles through that.  No hail-Mary plays involving e-sports or partnerships with for-profit corporations.  Presumably any remaining humanities majors at the school are on the chopping block.

Hope they can manage their decline successfully.  In a declining society and declining world that's about all you can do.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on September 20, 2023, 10:29:56 AM
Australia Catholic University is planning to fire (https://dailynous.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/acu-academic-draft-change-management-plan-2023-sept.pdf) an awful lot of permanent faculty in philosophy, history, political science, theology, and religious studies. 48 of them, including 13 philosophers in the Dianoia Institute of Philosophy. (But also: big cuts to theology and religious studies?!)

I don't know about the other disciplines, but what's especially significant (and appalling) about the philosophy case is that it established the Dianoia Institute in 2019, and spent a pile of cash to hire very famous philosophers to research-only positions there. They were hired as permanent employees. The idea behind this and other spending, apparently, was to boost the university's international ranking in THES and other rankings, and it worked: they went from being entirely unranked (i.e. outside the top 800) to a respectable ranking (in this case, the top 300). The Dianoia Institute, in particular, has been sponsoring and participating in loads of events and grants over the last few years, and is now among the top-ranked Australasian departments in philosophy. It was projected to be generating a $6 million surplus by 2026-7. The PhD students are being told that their studies won't be affected, which... well, that's obviously impossible, if their supervisors are all being fired.

What seems to have happened is that the admin that made these hires left, new administrators have swept in, and they've decided that the investment has paid off and can be terminated.

Despite claiming poverty, the university appears to be spending plenty of cash (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/top-researchers-hired-for-acus-new-centre-to-advance-literacy/news-story/0dcf260f0a7fa71140fdc9b5b7f077a7?btr=04dbb987451e8063c20f46b28b4cc340) on other, similar efforts, including an "Australian Centre for the Advancement of Literacy," which involves hiring "the largest group of working scientists in this area in Australia." I wonder how that'll go?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on September 21, 2023, 09:21:13 AM
At least one of the ACU faculty members apparently got their visa in July, and had their position cut in September.

Other news: SUNY Potsdam is planning to cut 14 degree programs, (https://www.northcountrynow.com/news/suny-potsdam-cutting-14-programs-start-dealing-9m-budget-deficit-0346852) and some unknown number of faculty positions. The programs are:

• Art history (BA)
• Arts management (BA)
• Biochemistry (MS)
• Chemistry (BA and BS)
• Dance (BA)
• French (BA)
• Music performance (MM)
• Philosophy (BA)
• Physics (BA)
• Public health (BS and MS)
• Spanish (BA)
• Theater (BA)

Some of these cuts were apparently planned in 2022, then reversed because of accreditation issues (due in part to absence of evidence). That they're returning to them after that is... interesting.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 21, 2023, 09:32:18 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 21, 2023, 09:21:13 AMAt least one of the ACU faculty members apparently got their visa in July, and had their position cut in September.

Other news: SUNY Potsdam is planning to cut 14 degree programs, (https://www.northcountrynow.com/news/suny-potsdam-cutting-14-programs-start-dealing-9m-budget-deficit-0346852) and some unknown number of faculty positions. The programs are:

• Art history (BA)
• Arts management (BA)
• Biochemistry (MS)
• Chemistry (BA and BS)
• Dance (BA)
• French (BA)
• Music performance (MM)
• Philosophy (BA)
• Physics (BA)
• Public health (BS and MS)
• Spanish (BA)
• Theater (BA)

Some of these cuts were apparently planned in 2022, then reversed because of accreditation issues (due in part to absence of evidence). That they're returning to them after that is... interesting.

Well, cutting philosophy and their performing arts and languages majors was only to be expected in today's climate.  Surprised to see so much STEM gone as well--although if you're trying to save money, that's where you'll save the most.  Surprised they're not cutting English and history, but wouldn't be too surprised if that's perhaps because they're already gone.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on September 21, 2023, 10:50:01 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 21, 2023, 09:32:18 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 21, 2023, 09:21:13 AMAt least one of the ACU faculty members apparently got their visa in July, and had their position cut in September.

Other news: SUNY Potsdam is planning to cut 14 degree programs, (https://www.northcountrynow.com/news/suny-potsdam-cutting-14-programs-start-dealing-9m-budget-deficit-0346852) and some unknown number of faculty positions. The programs are:

• Art history (BA)
• Arts management (BA)
• Biochemistry (MS)
• Chemistry (BA and BS)
• Dance (BA)
• French (BA)
• Music performance (MM)
• Philosophy (BA)
• Physics (BA)
• Public health (BS and MS)
• Spanish (BA)
• Theater (BA)

Some of these cuts were apparently planned in 2022, then reversed because of accreditation issues (due in part to absence of evidence). That they're returning to them after that is... interesting.

Well, cutting philosophy and their performing arts and languages majors was only to be expected in today's climate.  Surprised to see so much STEM gone as well--although if you're trying to save money, that's where you'll save the most.  Surprised they're not cutting English and history, but wouldn't be too surprised if that's perhaps because they're already gone.

Some STEM programs at lower-tier universities, like Chemistry at a place like SUNY Potsdam, get cut because of low student enrollments, because most students at the lower-tier universities simply are not up to the task of succeeding in a real Chemistry program. Our Chemistry and Physics programs are definitely losing students to the "easier" degree programs, which shall go un-named, but you know which ones they are. Chemistry faculty at more research-focused universities can keep their positions justified with grantsmanship, but Physics and Chemistry faculty at more teaching-focused universities depend on large numbers of students with STEM aptitude & preparation. And in some regions, there simply are not enough of those students. Chemistry faculty at more teaching-focused universities can save their tail by being part of programs that are pipeline programs for nursing programs and pre-med programs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on September 21, 2023, 11:21:38 AM
When examining a single institution's fate, it's always difficult to untangle causes that are general from causes that are unique to the institution. And one cause can always be bad luck.

SUNY Potsdam is located in a town with three other universities. One of them, Clarkson U, offers plenty of engineering and science. It receives funding form NY State allowing it to be a good value for tuition. With a trend decline in college age people, some place must shrink or close.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on September 21, 2023, 12:46:44 PM
Potsdam's enrollments are down 40% over the last twelve years.

As for philosophy in particular, that was one of the programs which accreditors singled out last year as being the target of baseless cuts.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on September 21, 2023, 01:18:22 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 21, 2023, 12:46:44 PMPotsdam's enrollments are down 40% over the last twelve years.

As for philosophy in particular, that was one of the programs which accreditors singled out last year as being the target of baseless cuts.

I have long been skeptical about the quality of decision making in determining what to cut. Everything seems to be framed in numbers of majors, as at Potsdam and at WVU. That's a fairly irrelevant number, though not completely. The correct questions are

a) What's you're revenue?
b) What's you're cost?

a must be bigger than b to contribute to overhead. I doubt this was calculated anywhere.

To its credit the philosophy dept almost makes this point

Philosophy (https://dailynous.com/2023/09/21/philosophy-at-suny-potsdam-threatened-again/#:~:text=The%20president%20of%20SUNY%20Potsdam%2C%20Suzanne%20Smith%2C%20announced,to%20reduce%20the%20university%E2%80%99s%20%249%20million%20operating%20deficit.)

but not explicitly in $. [It goes on to blame lack of funds for lack of majors, but they can be forgiven. Everybody does that.]

Whatever the demerits of the philosophy department's arguments, the university's are worse.

If only somebody hired me to cut an institution down to size, 'ya know like Cap the Knife Dismalist! :-)

What's systemic is a 40% drop in enrollments over 12 years and nobody lifts a finger! Incentives are badly misaligned in higher ed upper admin.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on September 21, 2023, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: dismalist on September 21, 2023, 01:18:22 PMI have long been skeptical about the quality of decision making in determining what to cut. Everything seems to be framed in numbers of majors, as at Potsdam and at WVU. That's a fairly irrelevant number, though not completely. The correct questions are

a) What's you're revenue?
b) What's you're cost?

a must be bigger than b to contribute to overhead.


We don't often agree, but on this, I do. Majors are a strange number to care about--or, at least, to care about to the exclusion of everything else (such as minors or even just service courses for other departments, and that's not even getting into the weird way double majors get counted/not).

It seems to me that as long as you've got enough going on at the foundational level, then it's well worth your while to have a major, even if you only get a handful of students a year, because you've already got most of the rest of the infrastructure in place and because it's important for the university's ability to advertise to and retain students that they be able to walk away with degrees in their chosen subjects.

Here, for example, we offer everything you'd need for a major except 400-level courses (they're on the books but never offered out of fear of cancellation, since they won't enroll 27+). And yet we offer no major, minor, or even an associate's or certificate. The entire university offers something like five majors. And so we enroll huge numbers for the first two years, and then lose them all to transfers to the other universities in the city. It's not hard to figure out why, since it's not like we're bleeding music, psych, animation, or business students... all of which offer majors and minors. Plus, having defined pathways, especially for minors, builds some resilience into your enrollments.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 21, 2023, 05:12:32 PM
Thanks for the link to the SUNY Potsdam Philosophy Dept's analysis. I agree that they do a good job providing a quantitative assessment of their high operational performance relative to other departments. Their rationale for low majors is sound (students want to take philosophy courses, but have already decidied on another major when they enrol because a philosphy major wasn't on their radar in high school.)

The Achilles Heel of the arguments is that the department is down to two faculty. That is a problem that colleges in dire financial straits will run in to with faculty attrition. I don't think a department of two is a big enough administrative unit.

The optimal department size, operationally and collegially, seems to be between 20 and 30. Through attrition and mergers, my "department" has ranged from 11 to 80 over the course of my career. It definitely worked best at 20-30.

I could see Potsdam's two philosphy professors continuing to offer excellent philosophy courses as part of a bigger humanities department that has a lot of majors and is run effectively with a resonable ans satisfying service load for faculty. That kind of vigor attracts and retains students, which can look like a path out of dire financial straits.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on September 21, 2023, 07:00:43 PM
Careful, careful!

Assuming the Philosophy Dept, or any other Dept, makes some contribution to fixed cost, it should live.

What bothers me most is that administrative costs are hardly ever mentioned [much] as candidates to effect savings at schools that are in financial trouble. Yet that's where cost increases have been overwhelming in the last 40 years or so.

Imagine running a restaurant that's in trouble and firing the cooks and the waiters and waitresses, so that the bookkeepers can prosper!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on September 22, 2023, 09:52:57 AM
In terms of Chemistry, maintaining the major is pricey because Chemistry actually has a certification program through ACS. ACS Approval Program (https://www.acs.org/education/policies/acs-approval-program.html)

This dictates the rigor and requirements for a Chem major. Its something that grad programs look for, so students with degrees from nonapproved Chem majors are at a huge disadvantage for their career.

Given this, I can see the decision being made that our students can't handle it and lets just focus on the pre-med required courses, rather than keeping a full time physical chemist etc.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 22, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 21, 2023, 05:12:32 PMThanks for the link to the SUNY Potsdam Philosophy Dept's analysis. I agree that they do a good job providing a quantitative assessment of their high operational performance relative to other departments. Their rationale for low majors is sound (students want to take philosophy courses, but have already decidied on another major when they enrol because a philosphy major wasn't on their radar in high school.)

The Achilles Heel of the arguments is that the department is down to two faculty. That is a problem that colleges in dire financial straits will run in to with faculty attrition. I don't think a department of two is a big enough administrative unit.

It's not impossible.  Alma Mater's modern languages department was down to two when my mother hired on--she taught Spanish, and the department head taught French.  In the years that followed, they grew into a department offering multiple languages.  But that was in a different era with respect to interest in languages and the liberal arts in general, and the demographic realities were different.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on September 22, 2023, 11:14:51 AM
Quote from: dismalist on September 21, 2023, 07:00:43 PMCareful, careful!

Assuming the Philosophy Dept, or any other Dept, makes some contribution to fixed cost, it should live.

What bothers me most is that administrative costs are hardly ever mentioned [much] as candidates to effect savings at schools that are in financial trouble. Yet that's where cost increases have been overwhelming in the last 40 years or so.

Imagine running a restaurant that's in trouble and firing the cooks and the waiters and waitresses, so that the bookkeepers can prosper!

Well, where I was for decades they ALWAYS claimed they were cutting administrative costs, but virtually never actually did. It was always "re-imagined" as something else, and then increased later.

They recently increased administrator pay by "aligning" position titles with the flagship. For all those decades being a more productive faculty member (think grants and pubs) that flagship counterparts meant nothing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on September 22, 2023, 11:26:27 AM
Its not impossible to have a department of two, or even of 1. You an arbitrarily set these things to any number you'd like. The problem that arises with 2 or 1 is that you are ostensibly paying someone (and I realize this is not true everywhere) to manage that department or unit. Managing yourself is obviously just "doing your job." Managing two is just talking to Sue at the coffeepot and seeing if Sue wants to meet at 2 or 3. Then you're more or less done. Or just email Sue with everything. So, breaking down small departments (and classes) is a matter of efficiency, realizing that you might have to make exceptions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 25, 2023, 03:26:23 PM
All remaining Art Institutes have closed.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 25, 2023, 04:06:55 PM
Quote from: spork on September 25, 2023, 03:26:23 PMAll remaining Art Institutes have closed.

NYT: Sudden Closure of Art Institutes Leaves 1,700 Students Adrift (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/25/arts/design/art-institutes-closures.html)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jonadam on September 27, 2023, 11:10:05 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 21, 2023, 09:21:13 AMAt least one of the ACU faculty members apparently got their visa in July, and had their position cut in September.

Other news: SUNY Potsdam is planning to cut 14 degree programs, (https://www.northcountrynow.com/news/suny-potsdam-cutting-14-programs-start-dealing-9m-budget-deficit-0346852) and some unknown number of faculty positions. The programs are:

• Art history (BA)
• Arts management (BA)
• Biochemistry (MS)
• Chemistry (BA and BS)
• Dance (BA)
• French (BA)
• Music performance (MM)
• Philosophy (BA)
• Physics (BA)
• Public health (BS and MS)
• Spanish (BA)
• Theater (BA)

Some of these cuts were apparently planned in 2022, then reversed because of accreditation issues (due in part to absence of evidence). That they're returning to them after that is... interesting.

Sad when departments cut their languages, especially Spanish. The time is coming in this country when monolingualism in the public sector won't fly, à la how Canada works.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: BadWolf on September 27, 2023, 12:05:44 PM
Not much to say on Potsdam which hasn't already been said. Had many friends attend there.

Came to mention a merger I found today...PA College of Health Sciences is merging with St. Joe's University. They say it was announced last January to be effective this coming January, but I don't recall seeing anything prior to the Middle States notification from Monday.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on September 27, 2023, 01:07:46 PM
College of Saint Rose. $4.6 million deficit on $111 million total expenses for FY 2022, despite $14.5 million in government grants and almost $6 million in private contributions. Undergraduate FTE enrollment has fallen by more than 25% over the last five years. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 27, 2023, 01:13:40 PM
Saint Rose has been mentioned on the "Dire Straits" threads several times over the years, hasn't it?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on September 27, 2023, 03:14:26 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 27, 2023, 01:13:40 PMSaint Rose has been mentioned on the "Dire Straits" threads several times over the years, hasn't it?


Yes, Saint Rose has been mentioned.

Last June, Saint Rose got a warning letter from MSCHE about its finances and had given them six months to get their act together. Before the warning from MSCHE, Saint Rose had already cut a lot of programs. Check out which programs survived the cuts and you'll that there are traditional majors that are conspicuously absent from their bachelors degree offerings (math, chemistry, physics, French/German/Spanish/Latin, Theater, Fine Arts, Graphic Arts, traditional music programs, Econ, etc).

Saint Rose had already laid off tenured professors, even after court challenges.

Even after all these sacrifices and cuts, it was not enough, and they are in danger of losing their accreditation. Some of the faculty had even turned on each other and were offering each other up as sacrificial lambs to admin, so they could save their own skins.

To add insult to injury, MSCHE is saddling them with warnings to improve their Assessment administrivia, as if they had and will have time for that s**t.

Saint Rose is circling the drain.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 27, 2023, 05:06:49 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 12, 2023, 10:27:57 AMIHE: Fighting for Scraps in Pennsylvania (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/admissions/traditional-age/2023/07/12/pa-public-colleges-battle-students-and-funding)

Lower Deck
QuoteEnrollment in the state has plummeted, but it has one of the highest ratios of institutions to students in the country. The result is fierce competition over a dwindling pool of applicants.

QuoteWhile the more popular campuses are stable or growing, many of the state's public institutions have seen drastic enrollment declines since 2010. Enrollment at Penn State's University Park campus is up 8 percent since 2010, and Pitt Oakland is up by 1 percent. But when the numbers at the two institutions are considered, including all of their campuses, both have suffered drops of over 30 percent, according to public data from the institutions. PASSHE's systemwide enrollment has also fallen by 30 percent in the same period.



A positive result today as the Wall Street Journal issued their latest rankings  (https://www.wsj.com/us-news/education/top-u-s-colleges-for-partying-969188e1?mod=hp_featst_pos5)showing that PASSHE's Indiana University of Pennsylvania placed #1 among party schools. (Survey was based on student satisfaction, not external criteria of festivity.)  Will this development help recruit more students from Pittsburgh? From Morgantown?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: librarygal on September 28, 2023, 05:22:26 AM
A year after the Workforce Management Framework. "ESU sees highest enrollment decline of all state universities amid $17.7 million funding request to KBOR"


http://www.emporiagazette.com/gaz/article_df598aac-5d42-11ee-a62a-e79237b4341c.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on September 28, 2023, 07:32:07 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 27, 2023, 05:06:49 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 12, 2023, 10:27:57 AMIHE: Fighting for Scraps in Pennsylvania (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/admissions/traditional-age/2023/07/12/pa-public-colleges-battle-students-and-funding)

Lower Deck
QuoteEnrollment in the state has plummeted, but it has one of the highest ratios of institutions to students in the country. The result is fierce competition over a dwindling pool of applicants.

QuoteWhile the more popular campuses are stable or growing, many of the state's public institutions have seen drastic enrollment declines since 2010. Enrollment at Penn State's University Park campus is up 8 percent since 2010, and Pitt Oakland is up by 1 percent. But when the numbers at the two institutions are considered, including all of their campuses, both have suffered drops of over 30 percent, according to public data from the institutions. PASSHE's systemwide enrollment has also fallen by 30 percent in the same period.



A positive result today as the Wall Street Journal issued their latest rankings  (https://www.wsj.com/us-news/education/top-u-s-colleges-for-partying-969188e1?mod=hp_featst_pos5)showing that PASSHE's Indiana University of Pennsylvania placed #1 among party schools. (Survey was based on student satisfaction, not external criteria of festivity.)  Will this development help recruit more students from Pittsburgh? From Morgantown?

Any school with a name like Indiana University of Pennsylvania was always going to have a struggle being taken seriously....
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on September 28, 2023, 09:35:20 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 28, 2023, 07:32:07 AMAny school with a name like Indiana University of Pennsylvania was always going to have a struggle being taken seriously....

Hey, if all you want is job training, you might as well have a grand old time while getting it!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 28, 2023, 06:54:22 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 28, 2023, 07:32:07 AMAny school with a name like Indiana University of Pennsylvania was always going to have a struggle being taken seriously....

On that point, they have to compete with nearby California University of Pennsylvania (https://www.calu.edu/).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: little bongo on September 29, 2023, 09:38:03 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 28, 2023, 06:54:22 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 28, 2023, 07:32:07 AMAny school with a name like Indiana University of Pennsylvania was always going to have a struggle being taken seriously....

On that point, they have to compete with nearby California University of Pennsylvania (https://www.calu.edu/).

I suppose this outs me to a large extent, but I'm in my 13th year at IUP. I can't speak with absolute authority on the partying, although I'm aware that Homecoming and "IUPaddy's" (centered around a weekend near St. Patrick's Day) are pretty notorious. As a prof, I will usually briefly address the class about upcoming bacchanalia with a few warnings about being safe, try not to get arrested, and that we don't recognize the big parties as school holidays, so you're still expected in class. We do our best.

Indiana, PA is also the home town of noted actor James Stewart. If you cross Philadelphia Street in the middle of town, you hear impressionist Rich Little doing his best Jimmy Stewart telling you that it's ok to cross the street ("take you time," he adds folksily at the end). Good Jimmy Stewart museum in town, too.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on September 29, 2023, 05:02:08 PM
Quote from: little bongo on September 29, 2023, 09:38:03 AM
Quote from: Hibush on September 28, 2023, 06:54:22 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 28, 2023, 07:32:07 AMAny school with a name like Indiana University of Pennsylvania was always going to have a struggle being taken seriously....

On that point, they have to compete with nearby California University of Pennsylvania (https://www.calu.edu/).

I suppose this outs me to a large extent, but I'm in my 13th year at IUP. I can't speak with absolute authority on the partying, although I'm aware that Homecoming and "IUPaddy's" (centered around a weekend near St. Patrick's Day) are pretty notorious. As a prof, I will usually briefly address the class about upcoming bacchanalia with a few warnings about being safe, try not to get arrested, and that we don't recognize the big parties as school holidays, so you're still expected in class. We do our best.

Thanks for chiming in! Your address to the students may be helping with that critical score since getting arrested is a dissatifying party experience.

Might as well use the notoriety to keep applications coming. On a serious note, would any WVU students from WPA consider transferring to IUP given that schools challenges described upthread?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on September 30, 2023, 07:31:40 AM
QuoteAny school with a name like Indiana University of Pennsylvania was always going to have a struggle being taken seriously....

Indiana University of Pennsylvania is still better off than Indiana University, insert any IU satellite campus in the state of Indiana.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 02, 2023, 05:17:45 AM
IHE: Citing Significant Budget Deficits, Several Colleges Face Cuts (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/cost-cutting/2023/10/02/several-colleges-plan-cuts-address-significant-financial-woes#)

Lower Deck:
QuoteThe affected institutions include Christian Brothers, Delta State, Lane Community College, Miami University, St. Norbert and Shepherd.
[/url]
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 04, 2023, 09:24:21 AM
IHE: Lane Community College in Oregon (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/cost-cutting/2023/10/04/budget-cut-proposal-oregon-community-college-criticized)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sonoamused on October 05, 2023, 06:24:11 AM
I know a student at LCC, and there seems to be a lot of bad blood between Admin and well, everyone else about the way Admin has tried to go about the cuts.  It sounds very ugly.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sonoamused on October 05, 2023, 06:26:02 AM
Quote from: spork on September 27, 2023, 01:07:46 PMCollege of Saint Rose. $4.6 million deficit on $111 million total expenses for FY 2022, despite $14.5 million in government grants and almost $6 million in private contributions. Undergraduate FTE enrollment has fallen by more than 25% over the last five years. 

I was a student in the Albany area over 25 years ago and was amazed St Rose was in business then. I fully expected it to go under about 15 years ago when my current employer saw a lot of upticks in job applications from long time faculty there.   I think they have ran on a prayer in a very tight educational environment for way longer then was expected.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on October 05, 2023, 11:49:24 AM
Does to show that being in a deep blue area doesn't mean security when it comes to higher ed.

There are too many academics on social media who seem to believe being in a state with a Democratic trifecta means more funding.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 12, 2023, 04:42:36 AM
IHE: Emporia State Cut Tenured Faculty. Enrollment Plunged. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/faculty-issues/tenure/2023/10/12/after-emporia-state-cut-tenured-faculty-enrollment-plunged)

Lower Deck:
QuoteCorrelation doesn't equal causation, but the Kansas university's head-count troubles have worsened. Might other institutions following its example see a similar fate?

Our plunge has slowed, but my old uni got a lot of bad publicity while cutting.  Enrollment worsened every time.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 12, 2023, 10:30:36 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 12, 2023, 04:42:36 AMIHE: Emporia State Cut Tenured Faculty. Enrollment Plunged. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/faculty-issues/tenure/2023/10/12/after-emporia-state-cut-tenured-faculty-enrollment-plunged)

Lower Deck:
QuoteCorrelation doesn't equal causation, but the Kansas university's head-count troubles have worsened. Might other institutions following its example see a similar fate?

Our plunge has slowed, but my old uni got a lot of bad publicity while cutting.  Enrollment worsened every time.

Unfortunately these articles speculate a lot but don't line up the relevant numbers. Emporia State lost 666 students. University of Kansas gained 1820 students; other campuses had minor changes.

Higher education is fine in Kansas. The enrollment change is the same as most other states: more students prefer the big campus to the smaller campuses. Total numbers are not going over a cliff.

The pattern is a significant financial challenge for the smaller state campuses. A smart system would find a way to use the excess instructional capacity at those campuses to meet the increasing need at the big campus. Especially in a state where is the legislature has made employment less attractive to out of staters.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 16, 2023, 09:07:09 AM
Not a college, but our library.  Our main regional industry shut down half its operations a few years ago.  Then they tore down the unused facilities so that they wouldn't have to pay taxes on the vacant property.  Our millage income--our only major source of revenue--is down 20% now.  Meanwhile we've been spending a fortune fixing up one thing after another on our aging building and its excessively elaborate HVAC system.

We have money banked from surplus years to keep from having to take drastic steps right away.  In the years to come, though, we're looking at major staff cuts.  Which would leave an under-utilized, expensive-to-maintain facility and grounds occupied by a skeleton staff.  I've come to believe that our best long-term strategy would be to shut down the facility and move a reduced staff into a rented storefront or something in a more central location, while we still have enough cash reserves to make the move.

Whatever we do, it looks like the remaining years of my professional career will be all about managed decline.  I do feel for all those in academia who face a similar prospect.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 16, 2023, 10:10:04 AM
Sorry apl.  What a bummer.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on October 16, 2023, 07:08:30 PM
This may well be a stupid question, but I don't suppose that you could convince the voters to increase your funding?   How popular is the library in your community, and does the average citizen realize just what they have, and what would go away if it closed?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 17, 2023, 08:20:05 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 16, 2023, 07:08:30 PMThis may well be a stupid question, but I don't suppose that you could convince the voters to increase your funding?  How popular is the library in your community, and does the average citizen realize just what they have, and what would go away if it closed?

We'll try, after a couple of years of preparation and community advocacy to maximize the chances of passage.  I am not, however, at all optimistic about our prospects of success.  Our library millage rate is already unusually high by state standards.  We have 2.4 mills.  Other libraries in the region all have a single mill at best. 

The higher millage was passed as part of the measure to build the current library facility in the 1990s--the architects of the plan understood that there was no sense building a fancy new building if there wasn't also a measure in place to fund it adequately.  The 2.4 millage gave us enough money to run things for many years.  It's why we were able to bank funds for a rainy day.  Unfortunately the long-term decline of the city's economic fortunes has had the effect of climate change--we now have to contend not with rainy days but living in a kind of permanent economic flood plain (I sound like I'm channeling polly here, don't I?).

If the economy doesn't further decline, and we can convince votes to increase the millage to 3.0 mills, we could be sustainable again.  But people around here don't feel too prosperous anymore, what with declining employment locally and the recent massive inflation in cost of living.  It's just not very likely we'll be able to convince them to increase an already relatively high millage.

Here's what I see as our likeliest strategic plan.  First, spend a couple of years making only minor trims that we can make to the budget without hurting services, while we prepare for a millage campaign.  Explain to the voters that if we can't increase the millage, then we will be looking at cutting staff and services and eventually shutting down the current facility.  If the millage fails to pass, follow through by laying people off, cutting services, and looking for an alternative property to move into while we still have cash reserves to do it.

I came here just two years after the library moved into that grand new facility.  It was like inheriting a fortune.  I had all these high hopes of what the library could be built into using those resources.  Instead I find myself in the latter part of my career looking at the prospect of having to shut down that facility at some point.  I don't see the library closing down altogether as long as the whole town doesn't dry up and blow away.  But it looks like my legacy when I retire will be a much-diminished library.  Not at all what I'd hoped to have for a career legacy.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on October 17, 2023, 09:33:16 AM
Ugh, sorry to hear that, apl68.

My addition concerns three institutions: McGill University, Concordia University, and Bishop's University. The Québec government has decided (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-student-fees-doubled-1.6995081) to more double the Canadian rate to $17 000. They will also raise the international rate to $20 000. The extra money will be sent to the province's Francophone universities.

These are Québec's three Anglophone universities (although one can complete all work at McGill in French), and the only three institutions which do not receive money in the form of "special mission" grants (no coincidence there!). To understand the significance of this move, you need to understand that in Québec, as elsewhere there are three tuition rates (Québec student, Canadian student, and international student); but, unlike anywhere else in Canada, universities only get to keep the dollar amount pegged to the Québec rate for each student (so, e.g., if the Québec rate is $4000, then it keeps $4000 of the tuition paid by every student, including Canadian and international students, and no more). The rest of the money gets kicked up to the government, which redistributes some of it in the form of its "special mission" grants.

This is a big deal because these three universities recruit heavily from the rest of Canada (they also have larger numbers of international students, but the relatively smaller hike is not likely to deter international students all that much, especially for McGill, which enjoys a fancy reputation). But with a tuition rate that high for out-of-province students (it would be far and away the highest in the country, and comparable to international student tuition everywhere else), it's sure to put a big damper on recruitment. These three institutions have long been starved of funds (because Anglophone), and this will really hurt. The Francophone institutions, by contrast, recruit very little from the other provinces, and have quite small international student populations, too.

There's no doubt in my mind that this is a political move aimed at killing these institutions, to the extent possible. It's entirely in line with other recent government policies targeting the province's Anglophone community. McGill and Concordia will probably manage to limp on, but Bishop's will probably die.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sonoamused on October 18, 2023, 06:14:13 PM
Clarkson U in NYS to start cutting programs:  https://www.syracuse.com/schools/2023/10/report-clarkson-university-looks-to-cut-faculty-programs-in-northern-ny.html

Northern NY has been hit hard with higher ed decline lately, and its probably going to speed up pretty quickly.  I suspect Western NY will be next   - the Buffalo/Niagara area, while having a little economic growth, has clustr of schools and still facing recruiting challenges.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on October 18, 2023, 09:57:49 PM
Quote from: apl68 on October 17, 2023, 08:20:05 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 16, 2023, 07:08:30 PMThis may well be a stupid question, but I don't suppose that you could convince the voters to increase your funding?  How popular is the library in your community, and does the average citizen realize just what they have, and what would go away if it closed?

We'll try, after a couple of years of preparation and community advocacy to maximize the chances of passage.  I am not, however, at all optimistic about our prospects of success.  Our library millage rate is already unusually high by state standards.  We have 2.4 mills.  Other libraries in the region all have a single mill at best. 

The higher millage was passed as part of the measure to build the current library facility in the 1990s--the architects of the plan understood that there was no sense building a fancy new building if there wasn't also a measure in place to fund it adequately.  The 2.4 millage gave us enough money to run things for many years.  It's why we were able to bank funds for a rainy day.  Unfortunately the long-term decline of the city's economic fortunes has had the effect of climate change--we now have to contend not with rainy days but living in a kind of permanent economic flood plain (I sound like I'm channeling polly here, don't I?).

If the economy doesn't further decline, and we can convince votes to increase the millage to 3.0 mills, we could be sustainable again.  But people around here don't feel too prosperous anymore, what with declining employment locally and the recent massive inflation in cost of living.  It's just not very likely we'll be able to convince them to increase an already relatively high millage.

Here's what I see as our likeliest strategic plan.  First, spend a couple of years making only minor trims that we can make to the budget without hurting services, while we prepare for a millage campaign.  Explain to the voters that if we can't increase the millage, then we will be looking at cutting staff and services and eventually shutting down the current facility.  If the millage fails to pass, follow through by laying people off, cutting services, and looking for an alternative property to move into while we still have cash reserves to do it.

I came here just two years after the library moved into that grand new facility.  It was like inheriting a fortune.  I had all these high hopes of what the library could be built into using those resources.  Instead I find myself in the latter part of my career looking at the prospect of having to shut down that facility at some point.  I don't see the library closing down altogether as long as the whole town doesn't dry up and blow away.  But it looks like my legacy when I retire will be a much-diminished library.  Not at all what I'd hoped to have for a career legacy.

Can you take early retirement? That town doesn't deserve people like you who actually care.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on October 19, 2023, 08:31:15 AM
Quote from: lightning on October 18, 2023, 09:57:49 PM
Quote from: apl68 on October 17, 2023, 08:20:05 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 16, 2023, 07:08:30 PMThis may well be a stupid question, but I don't suppose that you could convince the voters to increase your funding?  How popular is the library in your community, and does the average citizen realize just what they have, and what would go away if it closed?

We'll try, after a couple of years of preparation and community advocacy to maximize the chances of passage.  I am not, however, at all optimistic about our prospects of success.  Our library millage rate is already unusually high by state standards.  We have 2.4 mills.  Other libraries in the region all have a single mill at best. 

The higher millage was passed as part of the measure to build the current library facility in the 1990s--the architects of the plan understood that there was no sense building a fancy new building if there wasn't also a measure in place to fund it adequately.  The 2.4 millage gave us enough money to run things for many years.  It's why we were able to bank funds for a rainy day.  Unfortunately the long-term decline of the city's economic fortunes has had the effect of climate change--we now have to contend not with rainy days but living in a kind of permanent economic flood plain (I sound like I'm channeling polly here, don't I?).

If the economy doesn't further decline, and we can convince votes to increase the millage to 3.0 mills, we could be sustainable again.  But people around here don't feel too prosperous anymore, what with declining employment locally and the recent massive inflation in cost of living.  It's just not very likely we'll be able to convince them to increase an already relatively high millage.

Here's what I see as our likeliest strategic plan.  First, spend a couple of years making only minor trims that we can make to the budget without hurting services, while we prepare for a millage campaign.  Explain to the voters that if we can't increase the millage, then we will be looking at cutting staff and services and eventually shutting down the current facility.  If the millage fails to pass, follow through by laying people off, cutting services, and looking for an alternative property to move into while we still have cash reserves to do it.

I came here just two years after the library moved into that grand new facility.  It was like inheriting a fortune.  I had all these high hopes of what the library could be built into using those resources.  Instead I find myself in the latter part of my career looking at the prospect of having to shut down that facility at some point.  I don't see the library closing down altogether as long as the whole town doesn't dry up and blow away.  But it looks like my legacy when I retire will be a much-diminished library.  Not at all what I'd hoped to have for a career legacy.

Can you take early retirement? That town doesn't deserve people like you who actually care.

I'm 55.  I don't see a Gen-Xer like me being able to retire before 70.  It was those who came before us who got to have things like early retirements, and nearly-free college, and the option to drop out of society for a few years to do one's own thing and then drop back in again.  So...another 15 years on the job here, if we can manage to stay open that long. 

Actually our revenue cushion is big enough that we could, in a best-case scenario, perhaps avoid any really tough decisions until after I retire.  I've known of more than one case where a late-career librarian seems to have decided "You know, we've got enough money to get by comfortably until I retire, and then it'll be somebody else's problem," and then retired on the job and left the next librarian with no remaining cash reserves and all the tough decisions to make.  I don't want to be that person.  I'm hoping that maybe I and the Board of Trustees and the rest of the staff and the community can find a way to leave behind a sustainable, if diminished, library when I retire. 

If that's the duty I'm given by God, then so be it.  One thing I learned in history grad school is that some (maybe most?) people have to live in times of decline, not times of expansion.  Our town is no less "deserving" of good library service than those towns in the northern part of the state who enjoy world-class libraries by virtue of being located in a region that's swimming in Walton Foundation money that was sucked out of small towns all over the rest of the nation. 

In our region, we've been caught in a time of decline.  There are still a lot of us who consider this our home and care about it.  We don't want to bail on the town and its people because times have gotten harder.  As long as we can make some kind of living locally, we'll stick it out and try our best.  We still have people come to this library every day who need the services we can provide.  Somebody has to be at work trying to find ways to keep providing them.  It's part of what God put us here for.

I think that considerations like that are part of what keeps some people trying in colleges that are in financial straits.  Maybe some of them would be better off bailing.  But maybe some need to try to stay.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 19, 2023, 05:51:05 PM
Quote from: apl68 on October 19, 2023, 08:31:15 AMI think that considerations like that are part of what keeps some people trying in colleges that are in financial straits.  Maybe some of them would be better off bailing.  But maybe some need to try to stay.

That's beautiful. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on October 21, 2023, 02:21:48 PM
Yes, of course part of the reason college's want to stay in business is because it does some good in the community (jobs being chief among them, but not only jobs). I am at one that's in decline as far as enrollment goes (though we seem to have maybe stabilized, though admittedly we might just be Wile E. Coyote off the cliff before he looked down). However, we've done quite well in terms of donations and other external gifts, and have been getting more bigger gifts from non-alums. However, without re-adjusting to the new normal of smaller enrollments (i.e., firing people or taking more facilities off line  or both) , it means less money for everyone left, including small (for many years, no) raises and battles over scarce resources.

Should my school go away? We can probably re-set and survive because of our endowment, but eventually, that's unsustainable, although Sweet Briar seems to have shown is sustainable for years if you do it right.
But some more schools probably have run out of choices. Without enrollment, without endowment, and grants/donations drying up, where do you have left to go? You can try being a school with fewer than 100 students and a faculty of 10 and staff of about as many, but at some point that can go from super-dinky to super ridiculous.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: permanent imposter on October 25, 2023, 04:58:01 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 19, 2023, 05:51:05 PM
Quote from: apl68 on October 19, 2023, 08:31:15 AMI think that considerations like that are part of what keeps some people trying in colleges that are in financial straits.  Maybe some of them would be better off bailing.  But maybe some need to try to stay.

That's beautiful. 

Agreed. Your town is lucky to have you. I hope managed decline isn't your fate, but if it is I'm sure you will manage it with grace.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 25, 2023, 06:25:42 PM
Quote from: permanent imposter on October 25, 2023, 04:58:01 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 19, 2023, 05:51:05 PM
Quote from: apl68 on October 19, 2023, 08:31:15 AMI think that considerations like that are part of what keeps some people trying in colleges that are in financial straits.  Maybe some of them would be better off bailing.  But maybe some need to try to stay.

That's beautiful. 

Agreed. Your town is lucky to have you. I hope managed decline isn't your fate, but if it is I'm sure you will manage it with grace.

Ha!  I will give my "town" credit for refusing to give up, and I mean that sincerely.  Peeps around here are bent on "revitalization" with some tentative results. I doubt that it will keep the dinosaur from dying a slow death, however.

But I am afraid barely managed decline is my fate, as appears to be the fate of my former institution, and I am forced into "grace" because my wife still works there. In the meantime, I am trying to forge a new career----hiring is going slowly.

I just liked apl's attitude, even if it has been beaten out of me.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on October 26, 2023, 01:05:23 PM
Not truly dire, but Lesley University needs to downsize a lot more than just four majors that have a handful of students:
https://www.highereddive.com/news/lesley-university-to-lay-off-faculty-as-it-phases-out-4-degrees/697557/ (https://www.highereddive.com/news/lesley-university-to-lay-off-faculty-as-it-phases-out-4-degrees/697557/).

Birmingham-Southern University will close in a year or two, unless someone like Anthony Welters gives it $50 million, which is doubtful since no one at Birmingham-Southern is on the Supreme Court.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on October 27, 2023, 02:30:41 PM
U of Wisconsin-Platteville to lay off 111; UW-Oshkosh lays off 200 (https://www.wpr.org/uw-platteville-eliminating-111-positions-balance-budget)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on October 27, 2023, 06:03:22 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on October 27, 2023, 02:30:41 PMU of Wisconsin-Platteville to lay off 111; UW-Oshkosh lays off 200 (https://www.wpr.org/uw-platteville-eliminating-111-positions-balance-budget)
That reduction, which will continue, is the intended goal of the legislature in 2015. Closures in the Wisconsin system, unlike many others, can be attributed to the purposeful strangling in the form of a big deficit budget with no action permitted to close the deficit while continuing operations.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: treeoflife on November 03, 2023, 07:53:32 AM
https://www.al.com/opinion/2023/10/randall-woodfin-more-than-ever-birmingham-cant-afford-to-lose-birmingham-southern-college.html
Birmingham-Southern University might stand a chance (or not)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 03, 2023, 09:01:45 AM
Quote from: treeoflife on November 03, 2023, 07:53:32 AMhttps://www.al.com/opinion/2023/10/randall-woodfin-more-than-ever-birmingham-cant-afford-to-lose-birmingham-southern-college.html
Birmingham-Southern University might stand a chance (or not)

It does surprise me that there are not more economic impact studies done on dying colleges.  Our current city will be devastated if the university crumbles.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sonoamused on November 03, 2023, 10:03:25 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 03, 2023, 09:01:45 AM
Quote from: treeoflife on November 03, 2023, 07:53:32 AMhttps://www.al.com/opinion/2023/10/randall-woodfin-more-than-ever-birmingham-cant-afford-to-lose-birmingham-southern-college.html
Birmingham-Southern University might stand a chance (or not)

It does surprise me that there are not more economic impact studies done on dying colleges.  Our current city will be devastated if the university crumbles.

A PhD student I worked with was very surprised to find the same for his lit review.  The economic and social impact of closed colleges on the local area is really understudied. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: AmLitHist on November 08, 2023, 06:37:52 AM
In today's IHE newsletter, the opening paragraph of this article (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/cost-cutting/2023/11/08/latest-campus-program-cuts?utm_source=Inside+Higher+Ed&utm_campaign=74a3bfc4f3-DNU_2021_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1fcbc04421-74a3bfc4f3-233950369&mc_cid=74a3bfc4f3&mc_eid=718d8eb68e) gave me pause: rather than being relatively rare one-offs, the cuts to programs and faculty are becoming so usual that a dedicated "round up" is now IHE's plan for reporting them individually.

I wonder how long until my place appears on that list.  We're constantly told how great things are, and faculty were given huge raises in our latest contract (though we've had virtually none over the past 20 years--certainly not enough to match inflation in those years, particularly when the cost of our share of our health insurance has skyrocketed). There's also a major building boom across our district, to the tune of millions and millions of dollars based on a recent referendum raising taxes--yet property values and population in many parts of our service area are falling like a stone, and inflation in the cost of building materials and construction labor are rising steeply. A cynic might posit that those raises and inflation might be handy excuses if/when the bottom actually falls out, a sort of ready-made explanation to absolve the current Admin's responsibility for their own mismanagement.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 10, 2023, 07:57:34 AM
In a switch on the usual story we have this.

The University of Arizona (https://www.chronicle.com/article/u-of-arizona-has-a-major-problem-with-finances-its-president-says) is suddenly missing $240 million. President Robbins says, "the athletics department is going to require some draconian cuts"

I don't think UofA is going down the tubes, but it is interesting to see the travails of a flagship that is faring well otherwise. Having athletics take the first hit sets it apart from other Power 5 schools.

What is familiar is that net tuition is too low. "the university has been losing money from its generous financial-aid policies. It costs around $20,000 a year to educate each student, but in-state students pay an average of $5,000.And students with high-school grade-point averages above 3.75 pay nothing."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on November 10, 2023, 08:03:07 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 10, 2023, 07:57:34 AMIn a switch on the usual story we have this.

The University of Arizona (https://www.chronicle.com/article/u-of-arizona-has-a-major-problem-with-finances-its-president-says) is suddenly missing $240 million. President Robbins says, "the athletics department is going to require some draconian cuts"

I don't think UofA is going down the tubes, but it is interesting to see the travails of a flagship that is faring well otherwise. Having athletics take the first hit sets it apart from other Power 5 schools.

What is familiar is that net tuition is too low. "the university has been losing money from its generous financial-aid policies. It costs around $20,000 a year to educate each student, but in-state students pay an average of $5,000.And students with high-school grade-point averages above 3.75 pay nothing."

In a blinding flash of the obvious:
Quote"We lose money on everyone," he said. "I have not really understood that as well as I should have."

How could the president be this oblivious to the financial realities?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 10, 2023, 08:34:55 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 10, 2023, 08:03:07 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 10, 2023, 07:57:34 AMIn a switch on the usual story we have this.

The University of Arizona (https://www.chronicle.com/article/u-of-arizona-has-a-major-problem-with-finances-its-president-says) is suddenly missing $240 million. President Robbins says, "the athletics department is going to require some draconian cuts"

I don't think UofA is going down the tubes, but it is interesting to see the travails of a flagship that is faring well otherwise. Having athletics take the first hit sets it apart from other Power 5 schools.

What is familiar is that net tuition is too low. "the university has been losing money from its generous financial-aid policies. It costs around $20,000 a year to educate each student, but in-state students pay an average of $5,000.And students with high-school grade-point averages above 3.75 pay nothing."

In a blinding flash of the obvious:
Quote"We lose money on everyone," he said. "I have not really understood that as well as I should have."

How could the president be this oblivious to the financial realities?


Even for an R1 like Arizona (444 PhDs and $770 million in R&D), the enterprise budget for undergraduate education (40,000 students) needs to at least break even.

The internal budget model needs to reflect that requirement. The story shows that the current financial model makes it necessary for Arizona to end the money-hemorraging practice of admitting students with a high-school GPA over 3.75. But doing so may conflict with other institutional priorities.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 10, 2023, 10:03:14 AM
As usual with financial reporting from higher ed, none of this makes sense. It seems the wake-up call came because cash-on-hand was lower than planned. [Not unusual if you raid the piggy bank for pet projects.] But more to the point, how the hell do you have lots of cash-on-hand when you're making losses on each student?

All this is internally contradictory.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on November 10, 2023, 10:31:36 AM
Quote from: dismalist on November 10, 2023, 10:03:14 AMAs usual with financial reporting from higher ed, none of this makes sense. It seems the wake-up call came because cash-on-hand was lower than planned. [Not unusual if you raid the piggy bank for pet projects.] But more to the point, how the hell do you have lots of cash-on-hand when you're making losses on each student?

All this is internally contradictory.

It's not even just "losses".

Quote from: Hibush on November 10, 2023, 07:57:34 AM"And students with high-school grade-point averages above 3.75 pay nothing."

What percentage of students at most places get a free ride???

(Depending on how long this policy has been in place, I'm going to guess that, "surprisingly", lots of local high school students now get a 3.75 GPA.)



Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on November 10, 2023, 11:21:27 PM
Arizona's low/free tuition policies for in-state kids *sound* generous, but that's probably because most of us, including not only millennials, but Gen Xers and Boomers like most of us (who recall when things were different), have grown inured to the astoundingly high, over-the-rate-of inflation, inflated tuitions we now see, but it is important to recall, nonetheless, that such policies were the norm that most Boomers (let alone older-than-boomers) got from state schools traditionally.  Thus, most old-timers who see things like the current AU policy and huff and puff with outrage, but those amongst them who actually went to a public (and many many times also a private) college, well... let's just say they doth protest too much.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 11, 2023, 05:41:33 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 10, 2023, 11:21:27 PMArizona's low/free tuition policies for in-state kids *sound* generous, but that's probably because most of us, including not only millennials, but Gen Xers and Boomers like most of us (who recall when things were different), have grown inured to the astoundingly high, over-the-rate-of inflation, inflated tuitions we now see, but it is important to recall, nonetheless, that such policies were the norm that most Boomers (let alone older-than-boomers) got from state schools traditionally.  Thus, most old-timers who see things like the current AU policy and huff and puff with outrage, but those amongst them who actually went to a public (and many many times also a private) college, well... let's just say they doth protest too much.

If a state determines that is is good for society and its economy to have a well-educated population, then sending all the smart and motivated kids to college makes great sense. Covering the cost from state funds achieves that. California did that in the 1950s and 60s. That also seems to be Arizona's intent. If the policy intends to support e.g. 10,000 students (those who have a high enough GPA), and it costs U of A $20k each, the legislature needs to provide the university with $200 million specifically for that program. On top of the other support to run the university. The schools financial straits appear when the legislature doesn't do that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 12, 2023, 05:57:43 AM
Fresno Pacific U (https://sjvsun.com/education/fresno-pacific-university-drops-16-degree-programs-issue-layoffs-as-deficit-looms/) is shuttering 16 programs and consolidating colleges.

This is a small (and getting smaller) religious school in what passes for a rural area in California. Fresno has "only" half a million people.

They are cutting an unusual combination of core subjects and attempts to be trendy.

They are consolidating continuing departments from these units
into an undergraduate School of Arts and Sciences and a graduate School of Graduate and Professional Studies.

The faculty is shrinking by 10% in response to a 35% drop in enrollment fron 2700 to 1700.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on November 12, 2023, 07:32:43 AM
From the article:

QuoteThe thirteen undergraduate programs being cut are Arts Administration, Biblical/theological studies, Chemistry B.A., Chemistry B.S., Graphic design, Mathematics B.A., Mathematics B.S., Applied mathematics, Philosophy, Political science, Pre-law, Spanish and Theater.

    •    Bachelor's degree completion program Computer information systems is being cut, as well as graduate and seminary level programs M.A. in sports administration and M.A. in theology, Old Testament.

    •    The 88 students currently enrolled in those programs will be offered the classes and resources they need to complete their degrees on time.


88 students over 16 majors?!?!! Yeah, that's dire.

However, I'm not surprised at the programs getting cut. Some degree programs are the ones that everyone knee-jerks to cutting, and we all know which ones those are. Some degree programs are just too difficult to maintain enrollments, because most of the students at a place like Fresno Pacific are simply not up to the task, like in Chemistry & Math. "Easy" high enrollment/low overhead programs, including the faux-STEM programs, which attracted the marginal students who otherwise would flunk out or not come at all, are finding out that their degrees don't help them very much--the word is out. _______ administration programs have always been a joke, but they were able to fool many, for many years (it's easy to fool those who want to get an "admin" degree without taking Accounting, Math, Stats, & Analytics). Yeah, the word is out on those sports admin and arts admin programs, as well. As for Christians not wanting to study Theology. . . . well, most Christians aren't really interested in scholarly study of Christianity, ministry, and the Bible (not to mention that Latin is no longer required as part of a Theology major in many places--and the thought of them really wanting to read primary documents at all, just makes me cackle).

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on November 12, 2023, 09:56:01 AM
Quote from: lightning on November 12, 2023, 07:32:43 AMFrom the article:

QuoteThe thirteen undergraduate programs being cut are Arts Administration, Biblical/theological studies, Chemistry B.A., Chemistry B.S., Graphic design, Mathematics B.A., Mathematics B.S., Applied mathematics, Philosophy, Political science, Pre-law, Spanish and Theater.

    •    Bachelor's degree completion program Computer information systems is being cut, as well as graduate and seminary level programs M.A. in sports administration and M.A. in theology, Old Testament.

    •    The 88 students currently enrolled in those programs will be offered the classes and resources they need to complete their degrees on time.


88 students over 16 majors?!?!! Yeah, that's dire.



Especially when you consider the overlap of several of those programs, such as "Mathematics B.A., Mathematics B.S., Applied mathematics", that total number of students would potentially represent single-digit enrollments in some of them.

 

QuoteHowever, I'm not surprised at the programs getting cut. Some degree programs are the ones that everyone knee-jerks to cutting, and we all know which ones those are. Some degree programs are just too difficult to maintain enrollments, because most of the students at a place like Fresno Pacific are simply not up to the task, like in Chemistry & Math. "Easy" high enrollment/low overhead programs, including the faux-STEM programs, which attracted the marginal students who otherwise would flunk out or not come at all, are finding out that their degrees don't help them very much--the word is out. _______ administration programs have always been a joke, but they were able to fool many, for many years (it's easy to fool those who want to get an "admin" degree without taking Accounting, Math, Stats, & Analytics). Yeah, the word is out on those sports admin and arts admin programs, as well.


"Admin" is like "Studies"; the latter is used in place of "Science" for programs where "Basketweaving Studies" is code for "Basketweaving Science" but without any math.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on November 12, 2023, 12:20:10 PM

Quote"Admin" is like "Studies"; the latter is used in place of "Science" for programs where "Basketweaving Studies" is code for "Basketweaving Science" but without any math.

I think the most sinister of them all is Arts Admin. Imagine a math-phobic person who couldn't make it through a business admin program because they can't pass Accounting or Calculus, but they're also not good enough to perform in the arts. If you were on the BOD for a non-profit performing arts organization, would you want to hire someone with an Arts Admin degree??!!??
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on November 12, 2023, 06:00:22 PM
The Bible itself is indeed a 'primary document'-- what other primary documents that you suggest Christians are not eager to read, do you think they ought to be reading?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on November 12, 2023, 07:12:57 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 12, 2023, 06:00:22 PMThe Bible itself is indeed a 'primary document'-- what other primary documents that you suggest Christians are not eager to read, do you think they ought to be reading?


I'm not a theology professor, but I can't imagine not examining writings from the early Christian Church. Boethius? Cassiodorus?

Yes, of course the Bible is a primary document, but I'm thinking beyond that because to base a 4-year curriculum solely on one book . . . . yeah, well . . . I suppose it would help retention!!! Ha ha.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: quasihumanist on November 12, 2023, 07:27:47 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 12, 2023, 06:00:22 PMThe Bible itself is indeed a 'primary document'-- what other primary documents that you suggest Christians are not eager to read, do you think they ought to be reading?

When Luther wrote that every man is his own priest, it was meant as an inducement to study, not a pass on ignorance.

Zeroth, I am going to disregard those denominations/churches that have contempt for tradition and scholarship.  If a church thinks that they don't have anything to learn from 1800+ years of folks reading the Bible and making arguments about what it means, I don't have anything to say to them.

First, I would suggest that, if one is actually studying Christianity seriously, one should be familiar enough with Greek to make sense of translational issues for the New Testament.  (I suppose someone in certain Catholic circles could get away with Latin only, and there are a few people in crazy land who consider the King James the inspired version and everything else a pre-translation, but see point zero.)

After that, it's going to depend on which Christian tradition you prefer or are part of, but everyone should read some of the Church Fathers up to Augustine.  Lutherans should read Luther, Calvinists should read Calvin, and Catholics should read Aquinas and maybe Ignatius.  Methodists are lucky; they can read Wesley without learning another language.  The various denominations springing from the Radical Reformation have their own literature, though it tends to be less systematic.  All the various newfangled nondenominational folks are secretly one of the above theologically speaking (though I appreciate their desire to be structurally different and independent); some of them just ignore it to avoid studying.

Okay - I'm a universalist, so I don't have any prescriptions for a particular canon.  But for each person there is going to be *something* out there that will be useful to them, and they should look for it and read it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 12, 2023, 07:49:24 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 12, 2023, 06:00:22 PMThe Bible itself is indeed a 'primary document'-- what other primary documents that you suggest Christians are not eager to read, do you think they ought to be reading?

John Donne?
William Wordsworth?
Paradise Lost
Last Temptation of Christ?
C.S. Lewis?
Richard Dawkins?
Christopher Hitchens? 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 13, 2023, 05:19:26 AM
If Fresno Christian stops teaching the old testament, students can still take it at Fresno State. What keeps Fresno Christian competitive with Fresno State for kids in the SJV? Fresno State has a 97% acceptance rate, so they can get in. It is cheaper. Their philosphy department teaches a lot of religion courses, so they could have one every semester if they want that education.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 13, 2023, 09:10:39 AM
Quote from: lightning on November 12, 2023, 07:32:43 AMFrom the article:

QuoteThe thirteen undergraduate programs being cut are Arts Administration, Biblical/theological studies, Chemistry B.A., Chemistry B.S., Graphic design, Mathematics B.A., Mathematics B.S., Applied mathematics, Philosophy, Political science, Pre-law, Spanish and Theater.

    •    Bachelor's degree completion program Computer information systems is being cut, as well as graduate and seminary level programs M.A. in sports administration and M.A. in theology, Old Testament.

    •    The 88 students currently enrolled in those programs will be offered the classes and resources they need to complete their degrees on time.


88 students over 16 majors?!?!! Yeah, that's dire.

However, I'm not surprised at the programs getting cut. Some degree programs are the ones that everyone knee-jerks to cutting, and we all know which ones those are. Some degree programs are just too difficult to maintain enrollments, because most of the students at a place like Fresno Pacific are simply not up to the task, like in Chemistry & Math. "Easy" high enrollment/low overhead programs, including the faux-STEM programs, which attracted the marginal students who otherwise would flunk out or not come at all, are finding out that their degrees don't help them very much--the word is out. _______ administration programs have always been a joke, but they were able to fool many, for many years (it's easy to fool those who want to get an "admin" degree without taking Accounting, Math, Stats, & Analytics). Yeah, the word is out on those sports admin and arts admin programs, as well. As for Christians not wanting to study Theology. . . . well, most Christians aren't really interested in scholarly study of Christianity, ministry, and the Bible (not to mention that Latin is no longer required as part of a Theology major in many places--and the thought of them really wanting to read primary documents at all, just makes me cackle).



It looks like the school is affiliated with a very small Mennonite denomination whose membership has likely been in decline in recent years.  They probably just aren't getting enough ministerial students anymore to support a full array of religious study programs, especially at the MA level. 

I don't know the situation at Fresno, but it's not unusual for colleges that still take their religious mission seriously to require all students to take some core collection courses in biblical studies of some kind.  I recall taking them at Alma Mater, and Alma Mater still requires them.  If Fresno has even dropped those sorts of courses--which it doesn't appear from this that they have--then they really have lost their sense of mission.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 13, 2023, 09:42:22 AM
Quote from: apl68 on November 13, 2023, 09:10:39 AMIt looks like the school is affiliated with a very small Mennonite denomination whose membership has likely been in decline in recent years.  They probably just aren't getting enough ministerial students anymore to support a full array of religious study programs, especially at the MA level. 

The Mennonites here in the Northeast mostly leave school after eighth grade, a practice that reduces the proportion of college-attending 18-year-olds. I could see how that would exacerbate enrolment difficulties. It would be interesting to learn their "competitive market analysis" if they do such a thing.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 13, 2023, 10:08:07 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 13, 2023, 09:42:22 AM
Quote from: apl68 on November 13, 2023, 09:10:39 AMIt looks like the school is affiliated with a very small Mennonite denomination whose membership has likely been in decline in recent years.  They probably just aren't getting enough ministerial students anymore to support a full array of religious study programs, especially at the MA level. 

The Mennonites here in the Northeast mostly leave school after eighth grade, a practice that reduces the proportion of college-attending 18-year-olds. I could see how that would exacerbate enrolment difficulties. It would be interesting to learn their "competitive market analysis" if they do such a thing.

In my area (formerly) of the Midwest, Amish left after 8th grade, but not Mennonites. They have a number of small liberal arts colleges around the US.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 13, 2023, 11:04:35 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 13, 2023, 10:08:07 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 13, 2023, 09:42:22 AM
Quote from: apl68 on November 13, 2023, 09:10:39 AMIt looks like the school is affiliated with a very small Mennonite denomination whose membership has likely been in decline in recent years.  They probably just aren't getting enough ministerial students anymore to support a full array of religious study programs, especially at the MA level. 

The Mennonites here in the Northeast mostly leave school after eighth grade, a practice that reduces the proportion of college-attending 18-year-olds. I could see how that would exacerbate enrolment difficulties. It would be interesting to learn their "competitive market analysis" if they do such a thing.

In my area (formerly) of the Midwest, Amish left after 8th grade, but not Mennonites. They have a number of small liberal arts colleges around the US.

Yeah. The Amish and the Mennonites are often confounded with each other. They have a common origin, but split somewhere along the way. The Amish are stricter than the Mennonites but there is great variety within each group. As for education, the Amish limit it to 8th grade, but the Mennonites promote education.

Here is a short description of differences Amish and Mennonites (https://www.thetechedvocate.org/6-ways-to-distinguish-mennonites-from-amish/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 13, 2023, 02:53:03 PM
Sorry for the derail! Old Order Mennonites share much in common with Amish, including no higher education.

https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/outsiders-guide-to-americas-anabaptists
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on November 13, 2023, 09:06:22 PM
It certainly is true that, outside of a few Old Order Menno sects, most Menno denoms, including not only some very very liberal ones (some are at least as lib as the UCC), but also many very conservative ones who would eagerly be classed with conservative evangelical protestants, not only like higher ed but also run their own colleges (and seminaries for ministers), which is a good thing for them, because, ahem...

well, these conservative groups, like other conservative evangelical ones, have little use for higher criticism and other assorted elements of biblical and theological studies that are accepted by mainline protestants.   Like it or not.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on November 16, 2023, 01:45:39 PM
Saw this today:

UA has much less cash on hand than the Board of Regents requires. The faculty is accusing the administration of financial mismanagement.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/financial-health/2023/11/16/university-arizona-miscalculated-cash-hand-millions
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 16, 2023, 06:33:09 PM
Quote from: Puget on November 16, 2023, 01:45:39 PMSaw this today:

UA has much less cash on hand than the Board of Regents requires. The faculty is accusing the administration of financial mismanagement.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/financial-health/2023/11/16/university-arizona-miscalculated-cash-hand-millions


As noted upthread,
Quote from: Hibush on November 10, 2023, 07:57:34 AMThe University of Arizona (https://www.chronicle.com/article/u-of-arizona-has-a-major-problem-with-finances-its-president-says) is suddenly missing $240 million.

If administartion has spent $240 million without good records and only notices because the cash account is low, "financial mismanagment" is a reasonable characterization. Perhaps an understatement!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 16, 2023, 07:34:03 PM
Quote from: Hibush on November 16, 2023, 06:33:09 PM
Quote from: Puget on November 16, 2023, 01:45:39 PMSaw this today:

UA has much less cash on hand than the Board of Regents requires. The faculty is accusing the administration of financial mismanagement.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/financial-health/2023/11/16/university-arizona-miscalculated-cash-hand-millions


As noted upthread,
Quote from: Hibush on November 10, 2023, 07:57:34 AMThe University of Arizona (https://www.chronicle.com/article/u-of-arizona-has-a-major-problem-with-finances-its-president-says) is suddenly missing $240 million.

If administration has spent $240 million without good records and only notices because the cash account is low, "financial mismanagement" is a reasonable characterization. Perhaps an understatement!

Understatement? "Yeah, pa, I thought I had the $240 million in my other pants pocket!"

Yes and no. How the hell can a firm hire a bunch of morons like that? Only because there is no incentive to do otherwise. "It's not my fault, pa." 

The WVa guy talks a good game, but the U Arizona guy can't add, well, subtract.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on November 16, 2023, 08:02:47 PM
Quote from: Hibush on November 16, 2023, 06:33:09 PM
Quote from: Puget on November 16, 2023, 01:45:39 PMSaw this today:

UA has much less cash on hand than the Board of Regents requires. The faculty is accusing the administration of financial mismanagement.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/financial-health/2023/11/16/university-arizona-miscalculated-cash-hand-millions


As noted upthread,
Quote from: Hibush on November 10, 2023, 07:57:34 AMThe University of Arizona (https://www.chronicle.com/article/u-of-arizona-has-a-major-problem-with-finances-its-president-says) is suddenly missing $240 million.

If administartion has spent $240 million without good records and only notices because the cash account is low, "financial mismanagment" is a reasonable characterization. Perhaps an understatement!

Sorry, missed your earlier post (buried in the theology derailing).

They apparently know where at least some of it went! :
Quote. . .a $55 million loan to the athletics program, which has not been paid off. "We had assumed when we used cash on hand to support athletics that there would be an increase in revenue, and it just turned out not to be the case," Robbins told regents, adding that the loan has not been paid back "fast enough."

Apparently that's what they pay the president the big bucks for, assuming things?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 17, 2023, 05:29:26 AM
At the regents meeting yesterday (https://apnews.com/article/arizona-university-budget-shortfall-1ef3fbd102717516bb22ca0de6e98f90), U of A President Robbins blamed the preparations for a move to the Big 12 athletic conference. Apparently they had to game certain numbers to be admitted. Varsity athletics there has a budget of $100 million a year. (Even with gross mismanagement, how do you rack up a deficit of 2.4 years operating budget in one year?)

Apparently others at UofA think the university spent too much on integrating for-profit, online Ashford University's 35,000 students. (Ashford's owner paid UofA $37 million (https://www.edsurge.com/news/2020-08-06-u-of-arizona-bought-a-for-profit-u-for-1-actually-the-for-profit-paid-millions-to-be-acquired) to take it off their hands. One wonders how many hidden liabilities were transferred.)

Who is going to get fired for this stuff?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on November 17, 2023, 05:38:07 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 17, 2023, 05:29:26 AMAt the regents meeting yesterday (https://apnews.com/article/arizona-university-budget-shortfall-1ef3fbd102717516bb22ca0de6e98f90), U of A President Robbins blamed the preparations for a move to the Big 12 athletic conference. Apparently they had to game certain numbers to be admitted. Varsity athletics there has a budget of $100 million a year. (Even with gross mismanagement, how do you rack up a deficit of 2.4 years operating budget in one year?)

Apparently others at UofA think the university spent too much on integrating for-profit, online Ashford University's 35,000 students. (Ashford's owner paid UofA $37 million (https://www.edsurge.com/news/2020-08-06-u-of-arizona-bought-a-for-profit-u-for-1-actually-the-for-profit-paid-millions-to-be-acquired) to take it off their hands. One wonders how many hidden liabilities were transferred.)

Who is going to get fired for this stuff?

at the end, the Humanities faculty
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 17, 2023, 07:35:05 AM
Quote from: lightning on November 17, 2023, 05:38:07 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 17, 2023, 05:29:26 AMAt the regents meeting yesterday (https://apnews.com/article/arizona-university-budget-shortfall-1ef3fbd102717516bb22ca0de6e98f90), U of A President Robbins blamed the preparations for a move to the Big 12 athletic conference. Apparently they had to game certain numbers to be admitted. Varsity athletics there has a budget of $100 million a year. (Even with gross mismanagement, how do you rack up a deficit of 2.4 years operating budget in one year?)

Apparently others at UofA think the university spent too much on integrating for-profit, online Ashford University's 35,000 students. (Ashford's owner paid UofA $37 million (https://www.edsurge.com/news/2020-08-06-u-of-arizona-bought-a-for-profit-u-for-1-actually-the-for-profit-paid-millions-to-be-acquired) to take it off their hands. One wonders how many hidden liabilities were transferred.)

Who is going to get fired for this stuff?

at the end, the Humanities faculty

In all probability, yes. No matter what causes a college to fall into financial hard times, it's always the humanities faculty who are the first to pay by being laid off.  Among academics, at least.  The first sacrificial lambs are always departmental secretaries, librarians, and other staff members.

In this respect Higher Ed has become reminiscent of the frontier town that had one carpenter and two blacksmiths.  When the carpenter was convicted of murder, the townspeople hanged one of the blacksmiths instead--they could spare one of them, but not their carpenter!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 17, 2023, 12:35:38 PM
U of A has identified the problems being that their variable cost for educating and undergraduate student exceeds their revenue in that enterprise. That is probably a bigger problem than the crazy and obvious athletic overspending. Their costs seem rather average for a school of their type, so a financially rational person would look more closely at the revenue side. Obviously such creatures have not inhabited the administration building in Tucson, so this is simply an academic exercise.

If the humanities are drawing too few students, one source of revenue that has minor marginal cost would be to open those courses to non-matriculated students like retirees who have the time to commit and the life experience to regret not having taken those courses four decades earlier. In that sense, humanities courses might be the first and best opportunity to improve finances.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 27, 2023, 08:52:52 AM
IHE: Another Round of Campus Budget Turmoil (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/cost-cutting/2023/11/27/another-round-budget-turmoil-affects-nebraska-ohio-colleges)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 27, 2023, 11:20:03 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 27, 2023, 08:52:52 AMIHE: Another Round of Campus Budget Turmoil (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/business/cost-cutting/2023/11/27/another-round-budget-turmoil-affects-nebraska-ohio-colleges)

Thanks for adding that list to our resources

The cuts are often in low-enrolment courses, but those are not necessarily "the usual suspects".

University of Nebraska at Lincoln needs to cut a massive $12 million. A full 25% of that will come from cutting adminitrators, 20% from not hiring TT faculty, 15% from cutting adjuncts and 7% from cutting DEI programs.

University of Nebraska at Kearney will eliminate undergrad degrees in utilitarian subjects like business intelligence, geography, geography and geographic information sciences,
as well as more recreational music theatre, recreation management, recreation, outdoor and event management, and theatre.

Oklahoma Christian University is eliminating its graduate school of theology.

Baldwin-Wallace University faces a nearly $20 million budget deficit, far larger than the $3 million deficit it thought it had. That is proportionally worse than the University of Arizona oopsie. They are finding it challenging administering grant-supported science faculty and grant-free humanities faculty who are feuding with each other, as well as a very expensive conservatory.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on November 27, 2023, 09:26:25 PM
Of course it is, because whyever would a 'Christian University' want a grad school of theology...?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 28, 2023, 08:55:44 AM
Baldwin-Wallace isn't that large of a school.  A $20 million deficit is proportionally enormous!  They're going to have to absolutely butcher most of their programs to try to cut down a deficit like that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on November 28, 2023, 08:15:37 PM
QuoteBaldwin-Wallace University faces a nearly $20 million budget deficit, far larger than the $3 million deficit it thought it had. That is proportionally worse than the University of Arizona oopsie. They are finding it challenging administering grant-supported science faculty and grant-free humanities faculty who are feuding with each other, as well as a very expensive conservatory.

There are only about 3,000 students at BW. Holy sh*t!!! How could some be so inept that they didn't know what was really going on. Considering the relatively small size of BW, making this kind of financial mistake is completely inexcusable. The admins should all be sacked immediately.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: larix on November 28, 2023, 09:50:25 PM
Looks like institutions in Nevada will be making cuts as well.
https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/nevada-higher-ed-eyes-more-cuts-hiking-student-fees-to-fund-faculty-pay-raises
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 28, 2023, 10:17:15 PM
Quote from: lightning on November 28, 2023, 08:15:37 PM
QuoteBaldwin-Wallace University faces a nearly $20 million budget deficit, far larger than the $3 million deficit it thought it had. That is proportionally worse than the University of Arizona oopsie. They are finding it challenging administering grant-supported science faculty and grant-free humanities faculty who are feuding with each other, as well as a very expensive conservatory.

There are only about 3,000 students at BW. Holy sh*t!!! How could some be so inept that they didn't know what was really going on. Considering the relatively small size of BW, making this kind of financial mistake is completely inexcusable. The admins should all be sacked immediately.

I googled around a bit. Here is the first newspaper article I have ever come across that reports on the subject of a higher ed institution's finances with some relevant facts: BW Finances (https://www.clevescene.com/news/baldwin-wallace-thought-it-faced-a-3-million-budget-deficit-then-it-discovered-it-was-actually-20-million-43157166)

Past deficits were covered from endowment! [Eat your house until it's gone and you don't have a place to live anymore.] The person doing this was the CFO, who just retired. End game!

His boss clearly had no incentive to monitor his behavior. The structure of a non-profit gives the bosses a way to have a soft life -- until the money runs out.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 29, 2023, 06:45:09 AM
Quote from: dismalist on November 28, 2023, 10:17:15 PM
Quote from: lightning on November 28, 2023, 08:15:37 PM
QuoteBaldwin-Wallace University faces a nearly $20 million budget deficit, far larger than the $3 million deficit it thought it had. That is proportionally worse than the University of Arizona oopsie. They are finding it challenging administering grant-supported science faculty and grant-free humanities faculty who are feuding with each other, as well as a very expensive conservatory.

There are only about 3,000 students at BW. Holy sh*t!!! How could some be so inept that they didn't know what was really going on. Considering the relatively small size of BW, making this kind of financial mistake is completely inexcusable. The admins should all be sacked immediately.

I googled around a bit. Here is the first newspaper article I have ever come across that reports on the subject of a higher ed institution's finances with some relevant facts: BW Finances (https://www.clevescene.com/news/baldwin-wallace-thought-it-faced-a-3-million-budget-deficit-then-it-discovered-it-was-actually-20-million-43157166)

Past deficits were covered from endowment! [Eat your house until it's gone and you don't have a place to live anymore.] The person doing this was the CFO, who just retired. End game!

His boss clearly had no incentive to monitor his behavior. The structure of a non-profit gives the bosses a way to have a soft life -- until the money runs out.


This is exactly what I've been trying NOT to be guilty of doing at our library.  I could maybe, if the overall local economic situation doesn't take any more serious turns for the worse (a big "if"), stretch out our cash reserves socked away in previous surplus years until I retire, and leave the problem for the next director.  Instead I've furnished our Board of Trustees with a detailed report on budget trends and the development of our structural deficit in recent years, with thoughts for possible future actions.

We're starting the retrenchment process this coming year.  I'll stop going to the annual state library conference and try to find other little economies that won't inflict pain.  We have a staff member in her late 60s who has asked to semi-retire by dropping to part-time.  By letting her do that, and not getting anybody else to fill the hours she'll no longer be doing, we can save some on payroll.  There's another elderly staff member whose part-time position can probably be eliminated by attrition within the next couple of years.  I'm really hoping that economies like this in the near term can help to avoid layoffs down the line.  But it may just be postponing the inevitable.

These are the sorts of decisions that the schools that have been appearing on this thread have been facing.  The most responsible thing to do is to face them sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Trogdor on November 29, 2023, 06:54:09 AM
And another article about the College of St. Rose in Albany.
https://www.timesunion.com/education/article/college-saint-rose-asks-state-albany-officials-18520279.php

Sounds about as dire as it gets. They're basically begging for money from New York State.

It's not even clear how many students they actually have.

Quoteenrollment, which had fallen from 4,000 to 2,800 students
according to their accrediting agency (middle states)

Quotethe college has nearly 2,600 students, said spokeswoman Denise Dagnino

QuoteFitch Ratings, the prominent credit rating agency, said the college had 2,215 full-time-equivalent students in the 2022-2023 school year, when Saint Rose reported 2,800 students (both full- and part-time.)

QuoteStavisky (chair of the state senate's Higher Education Committee) said she was told the college had 1,778 undergrads this fall

QuoteIn September, the college withdrew from Fitch's rating service rather than share its latest financial details.

Damn. what a mess.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on November 29, 2023, 08:34:53 AM
Birmingham Southern is not dead yet. They get a $5 million loan.
Birmingham Southern Loan (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2023/11/29/embattled-birmingham-southern-secures-5-million-loan)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on November 29, 2023, 08:56:51 AM
Quote from: dismalist on November 28, 2023, 10:17:15 PM
Quote from: lightning on November 28, 2023, 08:15:37 PM
QuoteBaldwin-Wallace University faces a nearly $20 million budget deficit, far larger than the $3 million deficit it thought it had. That is proportionally worse than the University of Arizona oopsie. They are finding it challenging administering grant-supported science faculty and grant-free humanities faculty who are feuding with each other, as well as a very expensive conservatory.

There are only about 3,000 students at BW. Holy sh*t!!! How could some be so inept that they didn't know what was really going on. Considering the relatively small size of BW, making this kind of financial mistake is completely inexcusable. The admins should all be sacked immediately.

I googled around a bit. Here is the first newspaper article I have ever come across that reports on the subject of a higher ed institution's finances with some relevant facts: BW Finances (https://www.clevescene.com/news/baldwin-wallace-thought-it-faced-a-3-million-budget-deficit-then-it-discovered-it-was-actually-20-million-43157166)

Past deficits were covered from endowment! [Eat your house until it's gone and you don't have a place to live anymore.] The person doing this was the CFO, who just retired. End game!

His boss clearly had no incentive to monitor his behavior. The structure of a non-profit gives the bosses a way to have a soft life -- until the money runs out.


Happens in the private sector--more than it should. That's where these clown administrators in higher-ed get the idea--they get it from private-for-profits. Run higher ed like a business, until the money runs out, and when it goes bankrupt, walk away with full pockets and the experience of the lifestyle that it afforded can't be taken away.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 29, 2023, 09:11:50 AM
Quote from: lightning on November 29, 2023, 08:56:51 AM
Quote from: dismalist on November 28, 2023, 10:17:15 PM
Quote from: lightning on November 28, 2023, 08:15:37 PM
QuoteBaldwin-Wallace University faces a nearly $20 million budget deficit, far larger than the $3 million deficit it thought it had. That is proportionally worse than the University of Arizona oopsie. They are finding it challenging administering grant-supported science faculty and grant-free humanities faculty who are feuding with each other, as well as a very expensive conservatory.

There are only about 3,000 students at BW. Holy sh*t!!! How could some be so inept that they didn't know what was really going on. Considering the relatively small size of BW, making this kind of financial mistake is completely inexcusable. The admins should all be sacked immediately.

I googled around a bit. Here is the first newspaper article I have ever come across that reports on the subject of a higher ed institution's finances with some relevant facts: BW Finances (https://www.clevescene.com/news/baldwin-wallace-thought-it-faced-a-3-million-budget-deficit-then-it-discovered-it-was-actually-20-million-43157166)

Past deficits were covered from endowment! [Eat your house until it's gone and you don't have a place to live anymore.] The person doing this was the CFO, who just retired. End game!

His boss clearly had no incentive to monitor his behavior. The structure of a non-profit gives the bosses a way to have a soft life -- until the money runs out.


Happens in the private sector--more than it should. That's where these clown administrators in higher-ed get the idea--they get it from private-for-profits. Run higher ed like a business, until the money runs out, and when it goes bankrupt, walk away with full pockets and the experience of the lifestyle that it afforded can't be taken away.

It's actually harder to this in the for profit sector. Somebody -- the board -- has its members money stuck in the firm, which gets lost if the firm goes under.

In the non-profit sector nobody has skin in the game.

My favorite corporate disciplining device is the hostile takeover! If only that could be done in higher education. :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: artalot on November 29, 2023, 10:28:39 AM
Bacone College in Oklahoma. This one hasn't hit the national media, yet, but I have a friend who works nearby. Apparently, a judge has ordered the campus to go up for auction to settle a lawsuit over unpaid debts. The current president claims they found out about the auction in the newspaper and that the debt was incurred under the previous administration that left no records.   
It's a predominantly indigenous serving institution, so it's sad.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 29, 2023, 01:06:27 PM
Quote from: artalot on November 29, 2023, 10:28:39 AMBacone College in Oklahoma. This one hasn't hit the national media, yet, but I have a friend who works nearby. Apparently, a judge has ordered the campus to go up for auction to settle a lawsuit over unpaid debts. The current president claims they found out about the auction in the newspaper and that the debt was incurred under the previous administration that left no records. 
It's a predominantly indigenous serving institution, so it's sad.

The current leadership literally had to read in the paper that their campus was about to be auctioned out from under them?  How on Earth does something like that happen?  And we thought that Baldwin-Wallace's leadership was out of the loop!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 29, 2023, 01:53:45 PM
Quote from: artalot on November 29, 2023, 10:28:39 AMBacone College in Oklahoma. This one hasn't hit the national media, yet, but I have a friend who works nearby. Apparently, a judge has ordered the campus to go up for auction to settle a lawsuit over unpaid debts. The current president claims they found out about the auction in the newspaper and that the debt was incurred under the previous administration that left no records.   
It's a predominantly indigenous serving institution, so it's sad.

It sounds as if Bacone was about to expire a few years ago, but some area tribes bought in on the bet that they could become a Tribal College and use the subsidies those colleges get to make the finances work. That was not successful, so there was no path to financial sustainability.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on November 30, 2023, 08:23:33 AM
The St. Rose car crash has been slow motion, but inevitable. Operating deficit, bond debt, deferred maintenance on old physical plant, no brand, declining reputation, and lots of local competition.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 30, 2023, 08:37:14 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 29, 2023, 01:53:45 PM
Quote from: artalot on November 29, 2023, 10:28:39 AMBacone College in Oklahoma. This one hasn't hit the national media, yet, but I have a friend who works nearby. Apparently, a judge has ordered the campus to go up for auction to settle a lawsuit over unpaid debts. The current president claims they found out about the auction in the newspaper and that the debt was incurred under the previous administration that left no records.   
It's a predominantly indigenous serving institution, so it's sad.

It sounds as if Bacone was about to expire a few years ago, but some area tribes bought in on the bet that they could become a Tribal College and use the subsidies those colleges get to make the finances work. That was not successful, so there was no path to financial sustainability.

A sad story, since Bacone could have been a case of a small college filling a needed niche.  Unfortunately there seems simply not to have been enough money available to make it work.  And from the look of things, not enough good leadership either.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 30, 2023, 08:39:35 AM
Quote from: selecter on November 30, 2023, 08:23:33 AMThe St. Rose car crash has been slow motion, but inevitable. Operating deficit, bond debt, deferred maintenance on old physical plant, no brand, declining reputation, and lots of local competition.

Their request for a government bailout shows just how desperate they are.  You're just not going to see a state government bailing out a small private school like that.  Maybe if somehow it was the only higher education option in the region, but it's not that either.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on November 30, 2023, 12:17:40 PM
Quote from: apl68 on November 30, 2023, 08:39:35 AM
Quote from: selecter on November 30, 2023, 08:23:33 AMThe St. Rose car crash has been slow motion, but inevitable. Operating deficit, bond debt, deferred maintenance on old physical plant, no brand, declining reputation, and lots of local competition.

Their request for a government bailout shows just how desperate they are.  You're just not going to see a state government bailing out a small private school like that.  Maybe if somehow it was the only higher education option in the region, but it's not that either.

Birmingham-Southern was pleased with the recently passed state law for a loan, sued when denied, and now has a loan from city council: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2023/11/29/embattled-birmingham-southern-secures-5-million-loan

St. Rose probably is hoping for the same type of unwarranted miracle.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on November 30, 2023, 12:29:21 PM
Hi, polly!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on November 30, 2023, 01:04:08 PM
We've missed you Polly! I hope all is well.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on November 30, 2023, 01:51:25 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 30, 2023, 12:17:40 PM
Quote from: apl68 on November 30, 2023, 08:39:35 AM
Quote from: selecter on November 30, 2023, 08:23:33 AMThe St. Rose car crash has been slow motion, but inevitable. Operating deficit, bond debt, deferred maintenance on old physical plant, no brand, declining reputation, and lots of local competition.

Their request for a government bailout shows just how desperate they are.  You're just not going to see a state government bailing out a small private school like that.  Maybe if somehow it was the only higher education option in the region, but it's not that either.

Birmingham-Southern was pleased with the recently passed state law for a loan, sued when denied, and now has a loan from city council: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2023/11/29/embattled-birmingham-southern-secures-5-million-loan

St. Rose probably is hoping for the same type of unwarranted miracle.

Interesting. If one reads the article one learns that $2.5 million is a gift. The remaining $2.5 million is a loan secured by the property of the college.

If I understand correctly, the state is setting aside $30 million for these kinds of contingencies.

Given how these places have been run, my question is what happens when the money runs out?

Well, I do know: Daddy, I want more, now. :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 30, 2023, 02:03:04 PM
Yo! Pol-ly!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on November 30, 2023, 04:49:31 PM
Quote from: Trogdor on November 29, 2023, 06:54:09 AMAnd another article about the College of St. Rose in Albany.
https://www.timesunion.com/education/article/college-saint-rose-asks-state-albany-officials-18520279.php (https://www.timesunion.com/education/article/college-saint-rose-asks-state-albany-officials-18520279.php)

Sounds about as dire as it gets. They're basically begging for money from New York State.


The Board of Trustees pulled the plug on St. Rose this afternoon.
https://wnyt.com/top-stories/sources-the-college-of-saint-rose-to-shut-down-in-spring-2024/

https://www.timesunion.com/education/article/college-saint-rose-announces-close-school-year-s-18522277.php

Last day is May 11.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on November 30, 2023, 05:00:31 PM
My guess is it's was denied because status as a Tribal College because it's a private institution that is chartered by several tribes, but I haven't read why it was denied.

Quote from: Hibush on November 29, 2023, 01:53:45 PM
Quote from: artalot on November 29, 2023, 10:28:39 AMBacone College in Oklahoma. This one hasn't hit the national media, yet, but I have a friend who works nearby. Apparently, a judge has ordered the campus to go up for auction to settle a lawsuit over unpaid debts. The current president claims they found out about the auction in the newspaper and that the debt was incurred under the previous administration that left no records.   
It's a predominantly indigenous serving institution, so it's sad.

It sounds as if Bacone was about to expire a few years ago, but some area tribes bought in on the bet that they could become a Tribal College and use the subsidies those colleges get to make the finances work. That was not successful, so there was no path to financial sustainability.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Trogdor on December 01, 2023, 03:55:21 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 30, 2023, 04:49:31 PMThe Board of Trustees pulled the plug on St. Rose this afternoon.
https://wnyt.com/top-stories/sources-the-college-of-saint-rose-to-shut-down-in-spring-2024/

https://www.timesunion.com/education/article/college-saint-rose-announces-close-school-year-s-18522277.php

Last day is May 11.

Damn. That was quick. or slow. depending on how you look at it.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on December 01, 2023, 05:47:40 AM
Quick, I think. But the writing on the wall started 15 years ago. It's so nice to see Poly.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 01, 2023, 07:15:14 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 30, 2023, 04:49:31 PM
Quote from: Trogdor on November 29, 2023, 06:54:09 AMAnd another article about the College of St. Rose in Albany.
https://www.timesunion.com/education/article/college-saint-rose-asks-state-albany-officials-18520279.php (https://www.timesunion.com/education/article/college-saint-rose-asks-state-albany-officials-18520279.php)

Sounds about as dire as it gets. They're basically begging for money from New York State.


The Board of Trustees pulled the plug on St. Rose this afternoon.
https://wnyt.com/top-stories/sources-the-college-of-saint-rose-to-shut-down-in-spring-2024/

https://www.timesunion.com/education/article/college-saint-rose-announces-close-school-year-s-18522277.php

Last day is May 11.

It's going to be a great loss to the city of Albany.  Though not as devastating as if this had occurred in a small college town.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: AmLitHist on December 01, 2023, 08:25:00 AM
Fontbonne University (https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/education/fontbonne-university-to-cut-21-degree-programs-19-faculty-positions/article_835f97b4-8fb5-11ee-99b5-931c67fd10da.html), here in St. Louis.  The story is probably paywalled, but in part:

Fontbonne University will drop 21 academic programs and eliminate 19 faculty positions among other budget cuts totaling more than $2 million by 2025, officials announced Thursday.

The "final retrenchment plan" comes as the private Catholic institution experienced a 60% loss in enrollment and more than $14 million decline in revenue over the past decade.

The cuts total less than half of the university's $5.2 million deficit and include the elimination of the art, religious studies and health care management programs. The college also is pausing new enrollment in its renowned deaf education program.

Fontbonne President Nancy Blattner said in a statement that the college had to make "difficult decisions to ensure its long-term sustainability."
. . .
Earlier this week, Fontbonne announced that Quinton Clay, vice president for enrollment management and marketing, resigned from his position. An email to media Thursday said that administrators would not grant any interviews.
. . .
Just 874 students, including 650 undergraduates, are enrolled at Fontbonne this fall, down from roughly 2,000 students a decade ago.

The campus was quiet Thursday afternoon in a drizzling rain. Two freshmen said they were stunned by the news and planned to transfer to other universities. One of the students, who requested anonymity out of concern for her on-campus job, said she realized her major was being cut after none of the required classes showed up in the spring course catalog.

"When I came to tour last year, they weren't very forthcoming about the reality of being a student here," she said. "I wish I had done more research before I came here because I had no idea."


My original goal was to finish the dissertation and get hired there; as it worked out, I settled for my current place and going ABD (due to family obligations) and have been here 20 years.  At least I still have a job, for now. . . until a shoe drops at my place, which will not surprise me at all.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 01, 2023, 10:52:00 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on December 01, 2023, 08:25:00 AMFontbonne University (https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/education/fontbonne-university-to-cut-21-degree-programs-19-faculty-positions/article_835f97b4-8fb5-11ee-99b5-931c67fd10da.html), here in St. Louis.  The story is probably paywalled, but in part:

Fontbonne University will drop 21 academic programs and eliminate 19 faculty positions among other budget cuts totaling more than $2 million by 2025, officials announced Thursday.

The "final retrenchment plan" comes as the private Catholic institution experienced a 60% loss in enrollment and more than $14 million decline in revenue over the past decade.

The cuts total less than half of the university's $5.2 million deficit and include the elimination of the art, religious studies and health care management programs. The college also is pausing new enrollment in its renowned deaf education program.

Fontbonne President Nancy Blattner said in a statement that the college had to make "difficult decisions to ensure its long-term sustainability."
. . .
Earlier this week, Fontbonne announced that Quinton Clay, vice president for enrollment management and marketing, resigned from his position. An email to media Thursday said that administrators would not grant any interviews.
. . .
Just 874 students, including 650 undergraduates, are enrolled at Fontbonne this fall, down from roughly 2,000 students a decade ago.

The campus was quiet Thursday afternoon in a drizzling rain. Two freshmen said they were stunned by the news and planned to transfer to other universities. One of the students, who requested anonymity out of concern for her on-campus job, said she realized her major was being cut after none of the required classes showed up in the spring course catalog.

"When I came to tour last year, they weren't very forthcoming about the reality of being a student here," she said. "I wish I had done more research before I came here because I had no idea."


My original goal was to finish the dissertation and get hired there; as it worked out, I settled for my current place and going ABD (due to family obligations) and have been here 20 years.  At least I still have a job, for now. . . until a shoe drops at my place, which will not surprise me at all.

If they had not already been so before, they are surely now at the point where they simply need to admit that they can't make it (Enrollment down by well over half???), and get down to figuring out the most orderly closure and bankruptcy they can still manage.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 03, 2023, 02:08:53 PM
In an effort to get a sense of a normal rate of expiration of small schools, I found some numbers that may be helpful as a benchmark for distinguishing the natural turnover from a trend.

According to the Small Business Administration (https://www.sba.gov/document/support-table-size-standards), NAICS Code 611310 Colleges, Universities and Professional Schools, qualify as a small business for Federal contracting if their annual revenue is less than $34.5 million. A school that depends on net tuition + room for all its revenue could have a little more than 1000 students to qualify. That's a size one often finds among those in dire financial straits.

If one looks at the annual failure rate of small businesses (https://domainwheel.com/small-business-failure-statistics/#small-business-failure-rate-by-industry),
All small businessesEducation
20 to 500 employees  2.8%2.2%
Over 500 employees5.34.7%


There are 800 private colleges with enrollment (https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/how-many-universities-are-in-the-us-and-why-that-number-is-changing) under 1000. The business-natural rate of attrition would have 20 to 40 of those close each year.

In other industries, we recognize that those that fail are replaced by new businesses or expanded businesses. That happens in higher ed as well. Does it help at all to think about these schools as small businesses similar to businesses of comparable size in their community and region?

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on December 03, 2023, 07:32:28 PM
Has someone already noted that the College of St. Rose, in Albany, NY, is closing at the end of the academic year?

"Founded in 1920, The College of Saint Rose is a private independent college in the state capital of Albany, New York. The College is home to nearly 2,600 undergraduate and graduate students across 77 bachelor's, master's, certificate, dual and accelerated programs...

"White said the Board has been laser-focused on sustaining the institution. In recent years, she said, the Board eliminated high-cost academic programs, instituted administrator, staff and faculty layoffs, reduced pension contributions, cut administrator salaries, re-financed the College's debt, requested donors to unrestrict endowed funds, sold non-essential buildings, raised scholarship funds, and implemented a variety of new recruitment initiatives and strategies. The Board also engaged national consultants and, with the President, worked with a number of institutions to identify a strategic long-term partnership.

"Those efforts were unable to offset the ongoing deficit, White told the community. The projected operating cash deficit for this year is $11.3 million she said."

https://www.strose.edu/2023/12/01/the-college-of-saint-rose-announces-it-will-close/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on December 04, 2023, 05:21:21 AM
Quote from: Hibush on December 03, 2023, 02:08:53 PMIn an effort to get a sense of a normal rate of expiration of small schools, I found some numbers that may be helpful as a benchmark for distinguishing the natural turnover from a trend.

According to the Small Business Administration (https://www.sba.gov/document/support-table-size-standards), NAICS Code 611310 Colleges, Universities and Professional Schools, qualify as a small business for Federal contracting if their annual revenue is less than $34.5 million. A school that depends on net tuition + room for all its revenue could have a little more than 1000 students to qualify. That's a size one often finds among those in dire financial straits.

If one looks at the annual failure rate of small businesses (https://domainwheel.com/small-business-failure-statistics/#small-business-failure-rate-by-industry),
All small businessesEducation
20 to 500 employees  2.8%2.2%
Over 500 employees5.34.7%


There are 800 private colleges with enrollment (https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/how-many-universities-are-in-the-us-and-why-that-number-is-changing) under 1000. The business-natural rate of attrition would have 20 to 40 of those close each year.

In other industries, we recognize that those that fail are replaced by new businesses or expanded businesses. That happens in higher ed as well. Does it help at all to think about these schools as small businesses similar to businesses of comparable size in their community and region?



In that vein, they are in a sector where there is a huge economy of scale. In business terms, there are lots of independent restaurants, since the costs mostly scale with size, but few independent grocery stores, where costs like transportation benefit greatly by scale. For post-secondary educational institutions, the costs of offering different programs is very dependent on scale, even without considering costs like administration which can be disproportionately high at smaller places.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 04, 2023, 06:56:18 PM
More anecdotal than anything else, but anyone seen Blue Beetle?  It's a little better than the promotional material would indicate.  The main characters are a Mexican-American family.  In the exposition they have this dialogue:

We have a lot to be grateful for. Mira...

We're celebrating the first Reyes to graduate from college!

[in English] Yeah. And the last!

Yes, because you didn't apply.

[Milagro] What, so I can get into debt for the rest of my life? No thanks.

[Milagro sighs]

What? 25%?

Mi amor, these people make nothing.

We are broke.

[Alberto] Let's worry about money tomorrow.

Two scenes later, Jamie and his smartass sister have jobs scraping gum off the rich white characters' beach house and doing other humiliating service jobs.

Pop culture is a unsubtle lens into the culture's brain. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Diogenes on December 12, 2023, 07:13:02 AM
Bacone College, a private college that serves predominately Native students in Oklahoma is closing and getting auctioned off because they couldn't pay back an HVAC company in Utah. https://www.fox13now.com/news/fox-13-investigates/why-is-utah-hvac-company-set-to-buy-an-entire-oklahoma-college
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 12, 2023, 07:28:21 AM
Quote from: Diogenes on December 12, 2023, 07:13:02 AMBacone College, a private college that serves predominately Native students in Oklahoma is closing and getting auctioned off because they couldn't pay back an HVAC company in Utah. https://www.fox13now.com/news/fox-13-investigates/why-is-utah-hvac-company-set-to-buy-an-entire-oklahoma-college

That's a truly bizarre finish for a school.  I wonder what the HVAC people think they can do with that property?

I've learned in my own work never to underestimate the potential of long-term HVAC maintenance and repair to eat an institution's lunch.  By far the biggest single source of our library's operating deficit this year has been replacement of aged-out components on our hi-tech HVAC system. 

We're not about to go bankrupt and sold off to pay the HVAC repair bill, but I would feel better about our long-term financial viability if those responsible for building our facility around the turn of the century had not gone in for such an over-engineered system.  I've said before that if the architect who sold my predecessors on that system was still alive, I could almost strangle him.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on December 12, 2023, 10:36:14 AM
High-tech state-of-the-art, but unmaintainable/unsustainable (without large repair/replacement costs) HVAC systems are everywhere now, including my house.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 12, 2023, 12:22:24 PM
Quote from: apl68 on December 12, 2023, 07:28:21 AM
Quote from: Diogenes on December 12, 2023, 07:13:02 AMBacone College, a private college that serves predominately Native students in Oklahoma is closing and getting auctioned off because they couldn't pay back an HVAC company in Utah. https://www.fox13now.com/news/fox-13-investigates/why-is-utah-hvac-company-set-to-buy-an-entire-oklahoma-college

That's a truly bizarre finish for a school.  I wonder what the HVAC people think they can do with that property?


In one article, the HVAC company owner was contemplating renting it out...to Bacone College.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on December 12, 2023, 12:24:08 PM
About 16 years ago I was told I wouldn't be able to just continue repairing my HVAC, I'd have to replace it.
Haven't done it yet, though a more modern system probably could heat and cool more efficiently.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on December 12, 2023, 02:23:05 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on December 12, 2023, 12:24:08 PMAbout 16 years ago I was told I wouldn't be able to just continue repairing my HVAC, I'd have to replace it.
Haven't done it yet, though a more modern system probably could heat and cool more efficiently.

Not to derail this thread, but now is the time to look into heat pumps.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on December 13, 2023, 09:57:08 AM
We replaced out entre HVAC system this last year with heat pumps. They are NOT cheap! HVAC as a whole the prices have gone through the roof in the last 2 years or so. Partly due to supply chain issues, and partly because of increased awareness of energy efficiency.
   We now have a monthly payment (interest free) that is bigger than a car payment to pay off our new heat pumps. Our old units were 20+ years old so it was overdue, and we hope to see the power bills slows drop- we are on balanced billing so it will take a while to see the change in the monthly bills.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 13, 2023, 10:17:19 AM
I'm open to going with heat pumps for my house when the time to make a major HVAC replacement comes (Hopefully not anytime too soon!).  As for the library...I'm not sure it would even be possible to retrofit the type of system we have to work with heat pumps.  If it was, it would undoubtedly be fearfully expensive, perhaps in the same ballpark as a year's normal operating budget.  I know that the figure quoted for going with an alternative system that we asked about last year was pretty appalling.

They really lost an opportunity to build a long-term energy efficient building when they built this place in the early 2000s.  The members of the planning committee were all members of a generation that grew up in an era of abundant cheap energy, and probably just never learned to think in terms of energy efficiency.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Puget on December 13, 2023, 05:09:48 PM
I started a "heat pumps and other home energy improvements" thread to avoid derailing this one:
https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=3694.0
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 14, 2023, 07:44:58 AM
Thanks, Puget.

Getting back to this thread, Henderson State University, which has appeared here several times, got a new chancellor a few weeks ago. 


https://armoneyandpolitics.com/berry-henderson-chancellor/


He has done good work at Southern Arkansas University in recent years.  I used to know him.  He's a good guy.  HSU is in a lot better hands than many of the institutions on this thread seem to have been.  Although the new chancellor still has his work cut out for him.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on December 14, 2023, 08:48:52 AM
You will have to juke and move around a paywall, but this article (https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/college-saint-rose-told-bondholders-closure-vote-18547706.php) includes an internal 30-slide presentation of strategies, projections, fantasies, and lots and lots of red numbers that should be a cautionary tale to many of us.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on December 18, 2023, 10:36:50 AM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereknewton/2023/12/17/purdue-global-owes-128-million-to-its-for-profit-partner-it-may-not-be-able-to-pay/?sh=11f6c5e27998
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on December 18, 2023, 12:17:09 PM
If online for-profit were such a great idea, we'd all be doing it & making more money.  Once again, the promises of the tech bros come up empty.  The one thing the online advocates always forget is that, with a residential college, eventually your 18 yr old idiot kid leaves home & mom & dad get some peace & quiet.

For those with a real taste for risk, why not open an online, for-profit satellite campus somewhere in Malaysia, China or Singapore.  Then watch the money roll in out.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on December 18, 2023, 12:57:24 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 18, 2023, 12:17:09 PMIf online for-profit were such a great idea, we'd all be doing it & making more money.  Once again, the promises of the tech bros come up empty.  The one thing the online advocates always forget is that, with a residential college, eventually your 18 yr old idiot kid leaves home & mom & dad get some peace & quiet.

For those with a real taste for risk, why not open an online, for-profit satellite campus somewhere in Malaysia, China or Singapore.  Then watch the money roll in out.

The promises of the tech entrepreneurs are not sufficient to cause failure. It's the non-tech administrations of colleges and universities that believe those promises that cause the problem. The non-tech admins in a non-profit do not bear sufficient risk themselves.

No, open an on-site for profit campus somewhere in a low wage country. Get the swimming pools sorted out. That'd do the trick! :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on December 18, 2023, 01:36:36 PM
Mitch Daniels, the administrator who put his name on the dumb idea, is not even around, so he could be fired and disgraced.

That's the problem with some of these entrepreneurial ideas. The underlying secret business model is for someone to make bank, regardless of whether or not the business model of the touted idea is truly viable or not.

In the case of Purdue Global, Mitch Daniels got out after he made bank (but before he was made accountable as the one who ushered in the dumb idea), and that's all that really mattered.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on December 18, 2023, 02:06:07 PM
At least someone in the Purdue-Kaplan deal prevented Purdue and Indiana from being able to pay any Purdue Global debt. That has proven important protection.

The article jimbogumbo linked indicates that in addition to the outstanding $128 million bill to Kaplan for royalties, fees and services, the business doesn't make money. "Purdue Global, the report says, had a net operating revenue loss of $95 million, it has about $142 million in current liabilities, and just $2.6 million in the bank."

That looks like dire financial straits to me. Will Purdue Global go bankrupt like a conventional for-profit business?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on December 18, 2023, 02:13:48 PM
Non-profits are not subject to involuntary bankruptcy, i.e. creditors cannot force bankruptcy. But the non-profit can seek protection from its creditors under the bankruptcy laws.

Not enough risk on the non-profit directors for efficient decisions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: methodsman on December 20, 2023, 12:12:52 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on December 18, 2023, 10:36:50 AMhttps://www.forbes.com/sites/dereknewton/2023/12/17/purdue-global-owes-128-million-to-its-for-profit-partner-it-may-not-be-able-to-pay/?sh=11f6c5e27998

Oops. I just applied for a job there.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Mobius on December 20, 2023, 12:43:11 PM
Quote from: methodsman on December 20, 2023, 12:12:52 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on December 18, 2023, 10:36:50 AMhttps://www.forbes.com/sites/dereknewton/2023/12/17/purdue-global-owes-128-million-to-its-for-profit-partner-it-may-not-be-able-to-pay/?sh=11f6c5e27998

Oops. I just applied for a job there.

Don't worry. Every place like this is in trouble, in case you were wondering.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on December 20, 2023, 03:36:49 PM
Quote from: Mobius on December 20, 2023, 12:43:11 PM
Quote from: methodsman on December 20, 2023, 12:12:52 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on December 18, 2023, 10:36:50 AMhttps://www.forbes.com/sites/dereknewton/2023/12/17/purdue-global-owes-128-million-to-its-for-profit-partner-it-may-not-be-able-to-pay/?sh=11f6c5e27998

Oops. I just applied for a job there.

Don't worry. Every place like this is in trouble, in case you were wondering.

Purdue U. itself legally cannot cover the debt, so if that's where you applied then it this will not have any impact.

Purdue Global is yet another fantasy - declining enrollments?

Sure, let's go 100% online! All sorts of missing students from all over the world will just magically appear!

We won't need to market to them because everyone has heard of Purdue! And besides, online advertising is cheap.

Students will cheerfully pay lots of money to take large-enrolled online classes. Remember MOOCs and how they completely disrupted education?

SMDH.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on December 20, 2023, 03:43:47 PM
Quote from: methodsman on December 20, 2023, 12:12:52 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on December 18, 2023, 10:36:50 AMhttps://www.forbes.com/sites/dereknewton/2023/12/17/purdue-global-owes-128-million-to-its-for-profit-partner-it-may-not-be-able-to-pay/?sh=11f6c5e27998

Oops. I just applied for a job there.

That's OK. Just think short-term, and make your own personal business model all about making as much money off of Purdue Global as you can, in the short-term, with minimal investment. (Just act like you are in it for the long-haul.) If it's a remote job, then your personal investment will not involve a physical move.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on December 21, 2023, 07:49:23 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on December 20, 2023, 03:36:49 PMWe won't need to market to them because everyone has heard of Purdue!

Well, they are know for producing high-quality chicken products.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: methodsman on December 21, 2023, 08:31:36 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 21, 2023, 07:49:23 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on December 20, 2023, 03:36:49 PMWe won't need to market to them because everyone has heard of Purdue!

Well, they are know for producing high-quality chicken products.

This wins the internet today.
mm
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on February 09, 2024, 03:53:32 AM
I don't know about their finances, but there's definitely trouble over at Spartanburg Community College...

"...the administration was facing faculty opposition to its new mandate requiring professors to spend all of their 37.5-hour work weeks on campus.

"When faculty senate President Bruce Dillenbeck first tried to set up the senate meeting, the administration blocked his emails, but he called the meeting anyway. Hours before the vote was scheduled, then-Vice President of Academic Affairs Lisa Satterfield dissolved the senate.... The following campaign against Dillenbeck was documented in a report by the State Office of Inspector General. Satterfield had reviewed Dillenbeck's emails in an unsuccessful attempt to find evidence that he and other senators were planning some kind of walk-out or withholding of grades in protest.

"She asked campus police for surveillance footage of Dillenbeck, although there was no complaint made against him. Then she and other school officials lied to the public and the media about what they had done, according to the inspector general's report. It also found Satterfield lied to state investigators...."

"Some faculty interviewed for the report said the administration monitored their comings and goings by having administrative assistants walk the halls with clipboards to see who was or wasn't in their office. One said she would put a note on her door when using the restroom in case someone walked by and thought she was skipping work. Those interviewed said they would see another dean sitting in his car in the morning and afternoon to make sure instructors were arriving on time and not leaving early..."

Something smells rotten...

https://www.postandcourier.com/spartanburg/spartanburg-community-college-low-faculty-morale-aaup-report/article_f8e3b48c-c086-11ee-8ffb-43180359d780.html/?tpcc=sptsocial
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on February 09, 2024, 12:33:17 PM
What are such mandatory attendance policies for college fac supposed to accomplish?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 09, 2024, 06:05:41 PM
Rural Conjecture: They want to force faculty to be around for X hours per day for Y days a week so that they cam say to their stakeholders 'Our faculty are so hard working, they are here for X hours per day for Y days a week, and yes , we checked!"
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on February 09, 2024, 08:37:11 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 09, 2024, 12:33:17 PMWhat are such mandatory attendance policies for college fac supposed to accomplish?

I think this may be related to the concept that faculty don't really "work." 

That, and some people simply believe that if you have a job you need to be at your desk in your office for 8 hours a day, even if that is not the type of job one has.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on February 11, 2024, 07:39:39 AM
My Provost did this one summer.  Chairs are required to work x number of hours per week in the summer.  So she required it to be on campus.

I did the required "time" in the office by the end of June, and then I refused to d any more Chair work Until September 1.  Everything got routed to the Dean (and the Provost) when Dean was on vacation.  Since ~80% of the current chairs did the same thing, everything ground to a halt.

When the Provost finally called a meeting to discuss this, we could explain that we ALL did way more than the required hours in the summer, but if she was going to require us to be in the office to do the work, we wouldn't be doing any of it outside the office.  And we weren't coming in more than required.

Next summer, business back to usual.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on February 11, 2024, 10:04:39 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on February 09, 2024, 08:37:11 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 09, 2024, 12:33:17 PMWhat are such mandatory attendance policies for college fac supposed to accomplish?

I think this may be related to the concept that faculty don't really "work." 

That, and some people simply believe that if you have a job you need to be at your desk in your office for 8 hours a day, even if that is not the type of job one has.

I am at a small LAC and our marketed 'distinctiveness' is our residential learning community, complete with engagement with faculty in and outside the classroom. (I put distinctive in quotes since most LACs are doing the exact same thing.) Anyway, post-COVID, our campus community culture among faculty is to teach classes and the leave campus. Why be on campus for one second longer than necessary? Why be in your office to chat with students outside of formal office hours? Why chat with colleagues (inter or intra departmentally) for research, collegiality, etc?  This sort of culture probably works just fine at larger institutions but the reason students choose a smaller school that markets itself as "there for students" is no longer delivering on that promise.

I am not for mandating anything in terms of time on campus. We know our schedules and our students' needs best. But how do you rebuild a culture where faculty do want to be around students and colleagues and everything isn't "clock in and clock out". The entire reason I am a professor is that to me it isn't merely a job based on a set number of hours, it is a lifestyle. I do my job until I've completed my work. If that means I go in on a Saturday for an admissions event, so be it. If that means I write letters of recommendations over the summer for students, so be it. I don't "clock" that work. I do it when it needs to be done. And for almost every other day of the year, I can set my teaching schedule to my preferences (times, days, topics) and come in when I want.  The erosion of the lifestyle of being a professor has been sad to watch over the past 5 years, and I've been living this lifestyle for 20+.

I have no solutions just observations and sighs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 11, 2024, 12:20:22 PM
I'm at a school like TL's. I think most professors here realize that there's more to the job than teaching classes, and that doesn't mean just working from home on scholarship when not teaching. However, many professors have tons of demands on their time, such as children, aging parents, a long commute (done to allow spouse/partner to be in a nearby city so can get a "real" job, etc.), medical care and more. This is all besides the usual crunch of high-ish teaching load, expectations for non-perfunctory service and scholarship. I think the multiple demands and then COVID, probably did reduce presence on campus a bit, but I believe it has recovered. In any case, I think most Deans now (though we have a new one) are aware of what we want to be ("there for the students") and aware that sometimes reality gets in the way and we can't be all things to all people 24/7. I think more administrators (and T&P committee members) are no longer of the "gotta clock in some face time" variety, and are more appreciative of professors with balanced lives that still can provide a good environment for our students. That's here though. I realize that not every student, parent, professor, administrator feels this way. I imagine some are fairly traditional in their view of professor-ing: either you are teaching in front of a class, or you are behind a desk in your office, and that better be more hours than it isn't during the 9-5 period, M-F.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on February 11, 2024, 08:45:05 PM
You suppose that the deans are also always around, eager to have extended contact with walk-in students?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 12, 2024, 03:01:27 AM
Quote from: TreadingLife on February 11, 2024, 10:04:39 AM[. . .]

I am at a small LAC and our marketed 'distinctiveness'

[. . .]


I'm waiting, probably futilely, for administrators to recognize that these marketing efforts have increasingly diminishing returns given that college has become a predominantly transactional experience for both students and employees. 

A few examples:

Students need to work part-time jobs to pay for dormitory housing, which composes the majority of the all-important "auxiliary revenue" on which the university financially depends. Students can't be "engaged" when waiting tables off-campus.

About a third of our open staff positions--including those that are "student-facing"--are now advertised as hybrid, because at the salaries being offered, new hires can't afford to live near campus, nor do they want a two-hour round-trip commute five days per week.

Faculty are subject matter specialists, not chirpy salesmen. It's a waste of their expensive time to put them behind tables in an auditorium to chirpily greet clueless parents who have sullen, uninterested 17-year olds in tow -- especially given that no one in admissions has ever shown that this activity generates more enrollment than the food that is served in the dining halls when prospective students are on campus.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on February 12, 2024, 06:30:19 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 11, 2024, 08:45:05 PMYou suppose that the deans are also always around, eager to have extended contact with walk-in students?

No, they are too busy taking meetings that are about the Leadership of the organization.

From Zoom. At home. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 12, 2024, 07:10:35 AM
Most of our Deans are around quite a bit.

Also, if you are at a tuition driven school, especially one with declining enrollment, then you have to be partly a salesperson, regardless of training. That's just the reality. It doesn't mean you have to show up to every admission's event, but you should probably be willing to lend a hand to *something.*  Other than money and very new facilities, probably not much else helps, though I suppose smiling faces are better than service with a snarl.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on February 12, 2024, 04:13:01 PM
University of Kent (UK): (https://www.kentonline.co.uk/medway/news/nine-courses-could-be-phased-out-at-university-facing-fina-301103/) they're closing their (quite respectable) philosophy department, which will surely help.

Queen's (Canada): (https://www.queensu.ca/provost/sites/provwww/files/uploaded_files/Budget/Senate%20Budget%20Presentation-Jan17-2024.pdf) its catchment area is the provincial government's voting base, so I imagine they'll muddle through.

Manhattan College: (https://mcquad.org/2024/01/30/faculty-grapple-with-shocking-layoffs/?fbclid=IwAR37qwaPSDvVoQn1AIhaB55bF3nCM_TCkvCN22rPlin0udVtVRhYl5JkdIc) laying off 25% of their faculty!?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: larix on February 12, 2024, 04:42:52 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 12, 2024, 04:13:01 PMQueen's (Canada): (https://www.queensu.ca/provost/sites/provwww/files/uploaded_files/Budget/Senate%20Budget%20Presentation-Jan17-2024.pdf) its catchment area is the provincial government's voting base, so I imagine they'll muddle through.

True, though I think they are going to be in a bind (as will many Canadian Universities) after this decision
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-canada-international-student-visas-study-permits-1.7094095
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on February 12, 2024, 05:42:30 PM
Quote from: larix on February 12, 2024, 04:42:52 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 12, 2024, 04:13:01 PMQueen's (Canada): (https://www.queensu.ca/provost/sites/provwww/files/uploaded_files/Budget/Senate%20Budget%20Presentation-Jan17-2024.pdf) its catchment area is the provincial government's voting base, so I imagine they'll muddle through.

True, though I think they are going to be in a bind (as will many Canadian Universities) after this decision
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-canada-international-student-visas-study-permits-1.7094095


Yeah, it won't help. Mine is screwed, because although we're a public and, therefore, nominally reputable, fully 40% of our student body is international students. =/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 13, 2024, 09:47:02 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 12, 2024, 04:13:01 PMManhattan College: (https://mcquad.org/2024/01/30/faculty-grapple-with-shocking-layoffs/?fbclid=IwAR37qwaPSDvVoQn1AIhaB55bF3nCM_TCkvCN22rPlin0udVtVRhYl5JkdIc) laying off 25% of their faculty!?


There has also been a faculty vote of no-confidence in the college's president:


https://www.ncronline.org/news/catholic-college-faculty-vote-no-confidence-president-after-program-cuts-layoffs


So...another Catholic college dropping its religious studies and philosophy major to cut costs?  There goes any historically distinct mission niche they might have had.  Will they have anything left to attract students, besides the sorts of generic business and professional programs that can be found anywhere?

They've lost something like a sixth of their enrollment in five years.  Maintaining a campus in New York City must be obscenely expensive.  Hard to see how they can survive the familiar combination of rising costs and declining enrollment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on February 14, 2024, 08:36:59 AM
Manhattan College: according to Wikipedia, its 2021 graduating numbers were:
Civil Engineering (89)
Mechanical Engineering (73)
Marketing (47)
Communication (44)
Finance (38)
Psychology (37)

Look at those low numbers. Two years ago they had 3,166 students total. I imagine students are leaving in droves and any faculty who can leave are leaving. So it's rather immaterial which majors they are cutting this year.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 14, 2024, 10:24:02 AM
After this, it's likely the loss of students will accelerate. Cuts as drastic and embarrassing as those at Manhattan will surely make prospective students and parents lose confidence that it's a safe school to attend.

Wonder whether anybody has done any studies regarding tipping points at which a financially troubled school falls over the edge and becomes clearly doomed? 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on February 14, 2024, 11:27:21 AM
I wish. If so, I'd love to see it. "Clearly doomed" and "circling the drain" can be the same thing for a long, long time. And then, (College of St. Rose), boom, it's over.

I do think there are such harbingers, but I think so many schools are at risk and in denial they are hard to see.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on February 14, 2024, 12:35:56 PM
"How did you go bankrupt?" Bill asked.

"Two ways," Mike said. "Gradually and then suddenly."

--Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises, 1926.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 14, 2024, 12:42:15 PM
Unfortunately there have been enough closures in recent years for a researcher to have plenty of cases to study for patterns.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on February 14, 2024, 02:26:40 PM
Sad, but true.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: downer on February 14, 2024, 03:00:28 PM
Probably the credit rating of a college is a good sign of its future. The people who assign credit ratings have some incentive to pay attention to what is going on.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 14, 2024, 05:16:13 PM
Quote from: apl68 on February 14, 2024, 12:42:15 PMUnfortunately there have been enough closures in recent years for a researcher to have plenty of cases to study for patterns.
There isn't really a need to do that. The pathology is well known and there are many resources for administrators and trustees to assess their institution. https://cic.edu/insights/benchmarking-services/
https://www.bain.com/insights/financially-resilient-university/

There are many ratings of institutional financial condition, such as https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawhitford/2023/04/26/forbes-2023-college-financial-grades-the-strongest-and-weakest-colleges/

It is not that difficult to find out if a schools is at risk for oblivion. What is difficult is accepting that it is at risk and acting rationally to that information.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on February 14, 2024, 09:02:19 PM
Quote from: apl68 on February 13, 2024, 09:47:02 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 12, 2024, 04:13:01 PMManhattan College: (https://mcquad.org/2024/01/30/faculty-grapple-with-shocking-layoffs/?fbclid=IwAR37qwaPSDvVoQn1AIhaB55bF3nCM_TCkvCN22rPlin0udVtVRhYl5JkdIc) laying off 25% of their faculty!?


There has also been a faculty vote of no-confidence in the college's president:


https://www.ncronline.org/news/catholic-college-faculty-vote-no-confidence-president-after-program-cuts-layoffs


So...another Catholic college dropping its religious studies and philosophy major to cut costs?  There goes any historically distinct mission niche they might have had.  Will they have anything left to attract students, besides the sorts of generic business and professional programs that can be found anywhere?

They've lost something like a sixth of their enrollment in five years.  Maintaining a campus in New York City must be obscenely expensive.  Hard to see how they can survive the familiar combination of rising costs and declining enrollment.

These are some pretty accomplished faculty if you read their bios.  In an "ordinary" year they would stand pretty well on the job market, I would think.  I suspect most of them will have to look for non-academic work or retire early now.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 15, 2024, 04:15:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on February 14, 2024, 09:02:19 PMThese [Mahnattan college professors] are some pretty accomplished faculty if you read their bios.  In an "ordinary" year they would stand pretty well on the job market, I would think.  I suspect most of them will have to look for non-academic work or retire early now.

Given the number of higher-ed jobs in that city and environs, the faculty should have a better-than-usual chance of finding a faculty position within commuting distance.

The students are in engineering, and in marketing, communication and finance. NYC has a lot of high-paying private-sector jobs in those fields.

The impact on the faculty is likely to be lower than when comparably sized schools close in rural areas.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 15, 2024, 05:20:48 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 14, 2024, 05:16:13 PM
Quote from: apl68 on February 14, 2024, 12:42:15 PMUnfortunately there have been enough closures in recent years for a researcher to have plenty of cases to study for patterns.
There isn't really a need to do that. The pathology is well known and there are many resources for administrators and trustees to assess their institution. https://cic.edu/insights/benchmarking-services/
https://www.bain.com/insights/financially-resilient-university/

There are many ratings of institutional financial condition, such as https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawhitford/2023/04/26/forbes-2023-college-financial-grades-the-strongest-and-weakest-colleges/

It is not that difficult to find out if a schools is at risk for oblivion. What is difficult is accepting that it is at risk and acting rationally to that information.



And this is a "skill" that ought to be taught to junior faculty and to doctoral students thinking of academic employment. It's quite easy to identify whether one's prospective or actual employer is headed toward insolvency by looking at IRS Form 990s and IPEDS. Too many academics have their heads in the sand when it comes to organizational finances.

To your list of resources above, I'll add these:

https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2017/06/06/signs-institution-path-toward-unrecoverable-failure-essay (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2017/06/06/signs-institution-path-toward-unrecoverable-failure-essay)

https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2019/07/11/potential-indicator-colleges-may-face-major-financial-challenges-opinion (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2019/07/11/potential-indicator-colleges-may-face-major-financial-challenges-opinion)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 15, 2024, 06:21:48 AM
Hibush is right. Its not mystical. If a high enrollment, but tuition driven, school now has much less enrollment, then the income needed to sustain the budget decreases, and probably not just from tuition. I imagine endowment and giving are also down (though that doesn't necessarily have to be the case). The schools that can forge on for decades are the ones with huge endowments and pretty good giving even when enrollments are down. Its unsustainable at some point, and I am sure that can be calculated, but the confounding variables probably make this imprecise.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on February 15, 2024, 06:32:12 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 15, 2024, 06:21:48 AMIts unsustainable at some point, and I am sure that can be calculated, but the confounding variables probably make this imprecise.

Yep. This is what I'm trying to say: a big sack of schools are seriously at risk, and I'm guessing 5% of them are closing in the next five years. But picking out that 5% vs. the rest isn't the piece of cake some are suggesting. Obviously, *anyone* in the sack would be wise to be on the market, but a good chunk of those options are also in the sack.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 15, 2024, 06:54:46 AM
Yes, but if you are in the sack, but have a high endowment per student ratio and steady giving, you are probably better off than the cross town school that has similar enrollment difficulties, but small endowment and/or troubled giving.

So, I realize it sounds like we are both saying its easy and that its hard to predict, but I guess what we really mean its probably not hard to go from "troubled" to 'highly unlikely to succeed with these numbers for more than a decade." To then go from that to a precise list with rankings is maybe doable, but I think would have some mighty large error bars.

Anyone with decreasing enrollment is probably in trouble. Reductio ad absurdum: You can stay open indefinitely with one student and one professor (and maybe one custodian and one admin) if you have a huge endowment. But it does obviously mean making gigantic cuts and keeping buildings open that probably shouldn't be. On the opposite end, you probably have to close immediately if you have no savings, little collateral, and decreasing enrollments and decreasing reputation.

So, a study would be kind of cool, but looking up a handful of critical numbers that are generally available could tell most of the story if you wanted to know about a particular school.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 15, 2024, 07:41:58 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 14, 2024, 05:16:13 PM
Quote from: apl68 on February 14, 2024, 12:42:15 PMUnfortunately there have been enough closures in recent years for a researcher to have plenty of cases to study for patterns.
There isn't really a need to do that. The pathology is well known and there are many resources for administrators and trustees to assess their institution. https://cic.edu/insights/benchmarking-services/
https://www.bain.com/insights/financially-resilient-university/

There are many ratings of institutional financial condition, such as https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawhitford/2023/04/26/forbes-2023-college-financial-grades-the-strongest-and-weakest-colleges/

It is not that difficult to find out if a schools is at risk for oblivion. What is difficult is accepting that it is at risk and acting rationally to that information.



In that case, maybe what's needed is a closer look at schools that have reversed or arrested their slides in time, to see what sorts of strategies really work.  If they're implemented in time.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on February 15, 2024, 08:37:49 AM
Quote from: Hibush on February 15, 2024, 04:15:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on February 14, 2024, 09:02:19 PMThese [Mahnattan college professors] are some pretty accomplished faculty if you read their bios.  In an "ordinary" year they would stand pretty well on the job market, I would think.  I suspect most of them will have to look for non-academic work or retire early now.

Given the number of higher-ed jobs in that city and environs, the faculty should have a better-than-usual chance of finding a faculty position within commuting distance.

The students are in engineering, and in marketing, communication and finance. NYC has a lot of high-paying private-sector jobs in those fields.

The impact on the faculty is likely to be lower than when comparably sized schools close in rural areas.

I sure hope so. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Vkw10 on February 15, 2024, 08:56:25 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 15, 2024, 07:41:58 AMIn that case, maybe what's needed is a closer look at schools that have reversed or arrested their slides in time, to see what sorts of strategies really work.  If they're implemented in time.

Just checked out a book: Colleges on the brink: the case for financial exigency by Ambrose and Nietzel, Rodman & Littlefield, 2023. Looks relevant.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 15, 2024, 09:39:26 AM
Quote from: Vkw10 on February 15, 2024, 08:56:25 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 15, 2024, 07:41:58 AMIn that case, maybe what's needed is a closer look at schools that have reversed or arrested their slides in time, to see what sorts of strategies really work.  If they're implemented in time.

Just checked out a book: Colleges on the brink: the case for financial exigency by Ambrose and Nietzel, Rodman & Littlefield, 2023. Looks relevant.

Now we're talking!  Since I'm no longer in an academic environment, I wouldn't have ready access to something that specialized.  Maybe I could ILL it....
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on February 15, 2024, 10:18:40 AM
Artem Uni seems to score fairly well. Forbes gives it a B+. 

That said, all the tall foreheads and deep thinkers in the C suite seem to realize that without some serious attention, the future is not bright.  To give them some credit, we are about to go through some serious pain before the situation becomes unsalvageable. 

They could have done this 5 years ago, but at least they are making us face reality before the ship sinks.  We're taking on water, but there is an " all hands to the pumps" program in place.

Here's hoping it works.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on February 15, 2024, 06:51:44 PM
The University of Selecter was seemingly on the brink, and *may* be in the middle of a turnaround story, but until enrollment sustainably grows, maybe not. That book sounds quuite relevant, indeed, and I do think turnaround stories could tell us a lot, too. But you don't know if things have turned for about eight to ten years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 15, 2024, 06:58:54 PM
Rural College got an A+  !!!

I sorta see why. Though enrollment is down, and is a threat, we had  good giving including some historically large gifts. Though the endowment isn't a record for our size, it is reasonably large.

Probably get almost 10% of budget from giving and similar from endowment. Probably only 1% from grants.
I guess the rest is from tuition and fees.

It seems more B-ish to me, considering the sensitivity to enrollment, which is a bit off from our low, but is not anywhere near the highs.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 16, 2024, 05:20:08 AM
New School in NYC is unique, so its situation doesn't have implications for anyone else. It has, by some measures, been in dire financial straits for a century. They are raising money by selling their presidents house (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/16/nyregion/new-school-presidential-residence-sale-budget-troubles.html), a five-story brownstone in Manhattans' West Village. $20 million seems cheap considering that the neighborhood may be the most expensive in the country. I suppose the money needs to be used to pay off the new $300 million administration building (ok, that is not unique to struggling schools.)

Interesting to note that their president, and current resident of the house, is Donna Shalala, previously president of Hunter, Wisconsin and Miami. Getting someone like her to step in to a difficult role is one of the things that makes New School unique.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 16, 2024, 07:37:41 AM
Quote from: selecter on February 15, 2024, 06:51:44 PMThe University of Selecter was seemingly on the brink, and *may* be in the middle of a turnaround story, but until enrollment sustainably grows, maybe not. That book sounds quuite relevant, indeed, and I do think turnaround stories could tell us a lot, too. But you don't know if things have turned for about eight to ten years.

What's shocking is those stories about schools that bet everything on some big transformative plan and lost.  Looking at one of spork's links above reminded me of Burlington College's "turnaround president" (Somebody with a known affinity for utopian politics--not mentioning any names) who talked the tiny school into trying to spend $10 million for choice lakefront property on which to build a new campus.  The whole idea being to attract hundreds of new students in a region that already had one of the nation's most egregious surpluses of college capacity.  Not so much a case of turning things around as pointing it straight at a precipice and flooring the gas, Thelma and Louise style.  It's amazing how many struggling colleges' leadership have pulled spectacular cliff dives like this.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 16, 2024, 10:55:26 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 15, 2024, 06:58:54 PMRural College got an A+  !!!

I sorta see why. Though enrollment is down, and is a threat, we had  good giving including some historically large gifts. Though the endowment isn't a record for our size, it is reasonably large.

Probably get almost 10% of budget from giving and similar from endowment. Probably only 1% from grants.
I guess the rest is from tuition and fees.

It seems more B-ish to me, considering the sensitivity to enrollment, which is a bit off from our low, but is not anywhere near the highs.

I was relieved to see that Alma Mater scored a solid B+.  Not bad for a SLAC that's never been rich and is located in a never-rich rural region.  Like most SLACs they spent a lot of money some years back trying to attract more students.  Evidently they didn't get themselves too badly in debt, and they've held onto the same number of students they used to have.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 16, 2024, 06:01:43 PM
St. Augustine's University is no longer making payroll.

The Forbes index is garbage.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on February 16, 2024, 08:52:50 PM
Quote from: spork on February 16, 2024, 06:01:43 PMSt. Augustine's University is no longer making payroll.

The Forbes index is garbage.

Yeah. I looked up College of St. Rose, and their grade is still C-. St. Rose should be earning an F. Grade inflation is rampant and everywhere!!!!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on February 16, 2024, 10:57:40 PM
apl, is your alma mater associated with a denomination, something which can (and presumably does?) financially underwrite the school?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 17, 2024, 06:51:17 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 16, 2024, 10:57:40 PMapl, is your alma mater associated with a denomination, something which can (and presumably does?) financially underwrite the school?

It's a denominationally-affiliated school.  But our denomination is structured as an association of independent local churches, not a top-down hierarchy.  That means that we've never have central institutions with a lot of money to fund things like colleges.  Alma Mater might get some money from the denomination, but it has never been a whole lot.  Most denominational-level funds go toward overseas and home missions.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on February 17, 2024, 11:29:57 AM
Notre Dame of Ohio,
https://signalcleveland.org/notre-dame-college-says-no-update-yet-on-its-future/

Concordia, Michigan/Wisconsin
https://www.wemu.org/wemu-news/2024-02-14/ann-arbors-concordia-university-facing-financial-crisis

and Allegheny College
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-02-15/longtime-pennsylvania-liberal-arts-college-cut-to-brink-of-junk
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 17, 2024, 12:49:22 PM
I can't get behind the pay wall to the full story, but what gives with Allegheny? They are higher ranked than my college by a significant amount (They'd probably be called an aspirant of ours) and have similar endowment for somewhat more students (so i can see why that might be a positive that's actually a negative since they probably aren't drawing enough current income from the endowment). Also, their academic staff of 193 might be a bit too rich.  Even so, I wouldn't consider all of that to be death territory.  Do they have some huge debt load?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: sinenomine on February 17, 2024, 01:28:20 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 17, 2024, 12:49:22 PMI can't get behind the pay wall to the full story, but what gives with Allegheny? They are higher ranked than my college by a significant amount (They'd probably be called an aspirant of ours) and have similar endowment for somewhat more students (so i can see why that might be a positive that's actually a negative since they probably aren't drawing enough current income from the endowment). Also, their academic staff of 193 might be a bit too rich.  Even so, I wouldn't consider all of that to be death territory.  Do they have some huge debt load?

According to the article, "Moody's Investors Service downgraded the college's issuer rating one notch to Baa3, citing "weak financial operations" and a declining pool of applicants. The college's revenue fell to about $80 million for the 2023 fiscal year — a roughly 7% drop from four years ago — according to its annual reports. The school has more than $50 million of outstanding debt and is wrestling with operating deficits."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 17, 2024, 01:57:34 PM
I bet its the debt load that really killed them. My school has had some of these other issues, but though our initial run of budgets often gets us to a deficit, we never actually operate at a deficit (make the cuts). Also, our debts have never been as high as 20% of endowment. Also, with debt high and no promising source of new revenue (more students), it doesn't look good. Still, I would think they have time. But things can get bad fast if they are unwilling to adjust staffing realistically (say, mostly through attrition, depending on age of faculty)  and enrollment falls through the floor.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on February 17, 2024, 05:15:41 PM
Quote from: selecter on February 17, 2024, 11:29:57 AMNotre Dame of Ohio,
https://signalcleveland.org/notre-dame-college-says-no-update-yet-on-its-future/

Concordia, Michigan/Wisconsin
https://www.wemu.org/wemu-news/2024-02-14/ann-arbors-concordia-university-facing-financial-crisis

and Allegheny College
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-02-15/longtime-pennsylvania-liberal-arts-college-cut-to-brink-of-junk

And yet, Forbes gives Allegheny an A rating

Allegheny College   3.96   A

Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawhitford/2023/04/26/forbes-2023-college-financial-grades-the-strongest-and-weakest-colleges/?sh=38e64d821097
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 17, 2024, 05:25:56 PM
Allegheny's annual report for 2023 (https://sites.allegheny.edu/resources/files/2023/11/allegheny_college_audited_financial_statements_for_the_years_ended_june_30_2023_and_2022.pdf) shows that their operating budget was $79 million. Their net tuition was $21 million ($70 million tuition minus $49 million in aid). "Auxiliary" provided another $19 million and endowment payont $5 million. That is far from enough. They balanced the budget by taking  $29 million from the endowment.

That looks like dire financial straits to me. Could they cut aid from $49 million to $20 million and still enroll the same number and quality of students?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on February 17, 2024, 05:34:34 PM
Quote from: spork on February 16, 2024, 06:01:43 PMSt. Augustine's University is no longer making payroll.

The Forbes index is garbage.
Quote from: TreadingLife on February 17, 2024, 05:15:41 PM
Quote from: selecter on February 17, 2024, 11:29:57 AMNotre Dame of Ohio,
https://signalcleveland.org/notre-dame-college-says-no-update-yet-on-its-future/

Concordia, Michigan/Wisconsin
https://www.wemu.org/wemu-news/2024-02-14/ann-arbors-concordia-university-facing-financial-crisis

and Allegheny College
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-02-15/longtime-pennsylvania-liberal-arts-college-cut-to-brink-of-junk

And yet, Forbes gives Allegheny an A rating

Allegheny College    3.96    A

Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawhitford/2023/04/26/forbes-2023-college-financial-grades-the-strongest-and-weakest-colleges/?sh=38e64d821097

Yes, the Forbes ratings are garbage. They have nine financial criteria most of which are redundant [measuring the same thing], together weighted arbitrarily. One or two are about changing one flavor of assets to another, relevant for tomorrow but not next year. Must have been written by an MBA.

What 'ya gotta know is whether ordinary income [tuition, state support, income from endowment] has been greater than or equal to ordinary expenses over the last couple of years [wages and salaries, maintenance, debt service]. Do consider size of endowment separately, for that is what administrations like to dissipate before they have to find new jobs.

This tells us nothing about the future, but aggregate enrollment declines have been occurring over a ten year period so if they haven't adjusted or closed down by now, it's all over.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 17, 2024, 05:53:56 PM
Right. Size of endowment only matters to the extent 4-5% of it can pay some arbitrary, but reasonable, percentage (whatever it is--some say 30%, but that seems high) of expenses on an annual basis. But you can trick yourself into thinking you are covered under declining enrollment if the endowment is growing. But that's an unsustainable situation if you really care about the mission of the college.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on February 18, 2024, 08:24:48 AM
The Forbes ratings are truly garbage. They nuke The University of Selecter, for instance, but our Moody's has been going steadily up, and our debt steadily down, with (very small) operating surpluses several years running. Forbes lags badly, and as is stated, is just based on too much of the wrong stuff. Kinda like colleges were mattress marts. The best stuff that shows where a school really is (to my eye) are on highered data stories, highered dive, and not in 990s, which can be made to lie in the hands of the unscrupulous.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Ruralguy on February 18, 2024, 10:56:33 AM
Selector,

Can you explain what you mean by "highered data stories" showing where a school really is? Surely you aren't suggesting that anecdotes are more reliable than data?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on February 19, 2024, 05:36:37 AM
Ha! No, definitely not suggesting anecdotes are more reliable than data. One great example is his work on "draw rate," a measure of a colleges enrollment market power, w/ten year trends. It's just fantastic data on the enrollment side. It doesn't have debt and deferred maintenance and fiscal ratios, but what it does have is pretty fantastic.
https://www.highereddatastories.com/search?q=draw+rate

And, Draw Rate is one of many metrics you'll find there.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 19, 2024, 06:48:39 AM
Additional discussion of draw rate, and retention rate, based on Jon Boeckenstedt's work at Higher Ed Data Stories and the Inside Higher Ed articles listed earlier in this thread:

https://activelearningps.com/2015/04/03/is-your-employer-in-trouble/ (https://activelearningps.com/2015/04/03/is-your-employer-in-trouble/).

https://activelearningps.com/2015/09/06/is-your-employer-in-trouble-part2/ (https://activelearningps.com/2015/09/06/is-your-employer-in-trouble-part2/).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 28, 2024, 02:15:16 AM
Quote from: spork on February 16, 2024, 06:01:43 PMSt. Augustine's University is no longer making payroll.

The Forbes index is garbage.

SACSCOC rejected St. Augustine's appeal, it is now unaccredited. There is also a multimillion dollar tax lien against it. St. Augustine's will supposedly seek a court injunction against revocation of its accreditation, but in the world of reality, it needs to close.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 28, 2024, 06:46:17 AM
Quote from: spork on February 28, 2024, 02:15:16 AM
Quote from: spork on February 16, 2024, 06:01:43 PMSt. Augustine's University is no longer making payroll.

The Forbes index is garbage.

SACSCOC rejected St. Augustine's appeal, it is now unaccredited. There is also a multimillion dollar tax lien against it. St. Augustine's will supposedly seek a court injunction against revocation of its accreditation, but in the world of reality, it needs to close.

And now they're threatening legal action against the accrediting agency:


https://www.wral.com/story/saint-augustine-s-university-has-its-accreditation-appeal-denied-school-plans-to-file-lawsuit/21302949/


They borrowed $7 million only a few months ago, and yet they've been having trouble making payroll.  Students have been complaining about the school not giving them their financial aid refunds.  They've stiffed several vendors on goods and services.  It's hard to see how a school in that shape would have any legal grounds to complain that the accrediting agency has lost confidence in them.

They're an HCBU with a long history.  This will be a sad loss.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on February 28, 2024, 08:04:28 PM
Quote from: apl68 on February 28, 2024, 06:46:17 AM
Quote from: spork on February 28, 2024, 02:15:16 AM
Quote from: spork on February 16, 2024, 06:01:43 PMSt. Augustine's University is no longer making payroll.

The Forbes index is garbage.

SACSCOC rejected St. Augustine's appeal, it is now unaccredited. There is also a multimillion dollar tax lien against it. St. Augustine's will supposedly seek a court injunction against revocation of its accreditation, but in the world of reality, it needs to close.

And now they're threatening legal action against the accrediting agency:


https://www.wral.com/story/saint-augustine-s-university-has-its-accreditation-appeal-denied-school-plans-to-file-lawsuit/21302949/


They borrowed $7 million only a few months ago, and yet they've been having trouble making payroll.  Students have been complaining about the school not giving them their financial aid refunds.  They've stiffed several vendors on goods and services.  It's hard to see how a school in that shape would have any legal grounds to complain that the accrediting agency has lost confidence in them.

They're an HCBU with a long history.  This will be a sad loss.

It's clear that St. Augustine liked to borrow $7 million. But why would anyone want to lend it to them?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on February 29, 2024, 05:31:08 AM
Quote from: dismalist on February 28, 2024, 08:04:28 PMIt's clear that St. Augustine liked to borrow $7 million. But why would anyone want to lend it to them?

And what lawyer would take them as a client to pursue the lawsuit when the lawyers's likelihood of getting paid is so low?

The world of high finance seems to find takers, where the rest of us would say, "Nobody, obviously."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on February 29, 2024, 07:16:07 AM
Honest question. No intention to troll or cause any trouble.

It seems that HBCU's are proportionally more likely to have serious financial problems than most other schools.  Students of color at all of those other schools seem to desire a more serious effort on the part of those other schools to create a more welcoming environment for students of color.

So.... is there some reason that BIPOC students who desire a more comfortable environment don't enroll at HBCUs?  It would seem to be beneficial for both students and schools.Presumably the more comfortable environment is pretty much a given at an HBCU?  Or is the selection of majors, location, or some other factor driving them to non-HBCU schools??

In Between the World and Me, Ta-Nahasi Coates describes his time at Howard as idyllic.  It would seem like HBCU's have something to offer.  So why the limited enrollment?

Again.... not trying to pick a fight here.  Just trying to figure out the logic.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on February 29, 2024, 07:37:47 AM
More choice, for one thing.  Black students were long unwelcome anywhere besides HCBUs.  Now all colleges at least in principal welcome them, and some try really hard to recruit them.  Many of these schools can offer better opportunities for students than the average historically underfunded HCBU (And really, some of them have been shamefully underfunded), and so the HCBUs have lost much of their traditional constituency. Of the college-bound black students I've known personally here, I can't think of more than one or two who have gone to the region's HCBUs.

Some do still prefer an environment where they don't always have to feel like (and be) a minority.  But students who inspire to that distinctive HCBU environment seem to be getting spread pretty thin among the remaining HCBUs.  And HCBUs haven't produced as many millionaire/billionaire alumni who can serve as potential donors as a few of the ritziest SLACs have.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on February 29, 2024, 07:54:39 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 29, 2024, 07:37:47 AMMore choice, for one thing.  Black students were long unwelcome anywhere besides HCBUs.  Now all colleges at least in principal welcome them, and some try really hard to recruit them.  Many of these schools can offer better opportunities for students than the average historically underfunded HCBU (And really, some of them have been shamefully underfunded), and so the HCBUs have lost much of their traditional constituency. Of the college-bound black students I've known personally here, I can't think of more than one or two who have gone to the region's HCBUs.

Some do still prefer an environment where they don't always have to feel like (and be) a minority.  But students who inspire to that distinctive HCBU environment seem to be getting spread pretty thin among the remaining HCBUs.  And HCBUs haven't produced as many millionaire/billionaire alumni who can serve as potential donors as a few of the ritziest SLACs have.

Fascinating. Are there any studies to compare the attitudes of black students at HCBUs and those at other places to see what proportion actually feel more comfortable when they're there, not just what they assumed in advance? Presumably over time that gap should narrow, and could even reverse if there are some things that are noticeably better at non-HCBU places.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: mythbuster on February 29, 2024, 08:33:32 AM
It would be a fascinating study to look at students side by side at Florida State and Florida A+M. The two schools are literally abutting each other- with the literal and proverbial train tracks in between! Because they have the same location, it would control for at least the geographic variable.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: emera gratia on February 29, 2024, 02:06:13 PM
Notre Dame College of Ohio to close after this semester (https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cuyahoga-county/notre-dame-college-to-close-at-end-of-this-semester/95-ded59e15-51e5-4638-84ec-529621b4c29b); they tried to negotiate a merger with Cleveland State University, but apparently couldn't make it work.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on February 29, 2024, 06:49:03 PM
Quote from: apl68 on February 29, 2024, 07:37:47 AMMore choice, for one thing. 

[. . . ]

Many of these schools can offer better opportunities for students

[. . . ]

Same process for women's colleges. The Wellesleys and Bryn Mawrs, like Howard, can rely on their reputations and endowments. People still want to attend, even though they now have many other choices. But who wants to go to Tuition-Dependent Former Normal School when they can access better resources at State U., often at a lower price? Mills College fits this pattern:
https://activelearningps.com/2017/07/24/mills-college-when-the-bus-leaves-the-station-and-youre-not-on-it/
 (https://activelearningps.com/2017/07/24/mills-college-when-the-bus-leaves-the-station-and-youre-not-on-it/)
Quote from: emera gratia on February 29, 2024, 02:06:13 PMNotre Dame College of Ohio to close after this semester (https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cuyahoga-county/notre-dame-college-to-close-at-end-of-this-semester/95-ded59e15-51e5-4638-84ec-529621b4c29b); they tried to negotiate a merger with Cleveland State University, but apparently couldn't make it work.

Another small Catholic college goes under. It was women-only until 2001.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 01, 2024, 07:30:04 AM
Things definitely don't look good for Mills in light of that analysis.  It mentions that their endowment is 95% restricted.  Just out of curiosity, I wonder what sorts of things the restricted portions of the endowment are meant to pay for?  And to what extent are they things that perhaps no longer fit the college's needs?


I see from the article on Notre Dame that other little schools in the region are losing no time putting themselves forward as alternatives for the orphaned students.  Hope Notre Dame's ill wind at least blows them some good.  The school's closure will be a real economic blow to the town where it's based. 

I wonder what will happen to their campus?  Will it be repurposed?  Torn down and redeveloped into condominiums or low-income housing?  Abandoned and left to rot?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 01, 2024, 09:08:27 AM
Mills no longer exists. Northeastern bought the campus.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 01, 2024, 10:53:28 AM
Oh yeah that's right, they're now "Mills College at Northeastern University."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on March 03, 2024, 09:28:19 AM
Manhattan College covers itself in more glory (or is it 'gory'?): (https://www.chronicle.com/article/these-tenured-professors-thought-they-were-safe-from-manhattan-colleges-latest-layoffs-they-were-wrong)

QuoteNearly two dozen faculty members at Manhattan College, most of them tenured, got word last month that they were being laid off. The decision appeared to contradict the "last-in, first-out" approach laid out last fall by the New York college's administrators, in which the newest employees would be the first to go.

In what felt to some faculty members like a bait and switch, several senior professors who assumed their jobs weren't at risk now face termination, while more-junior scholars, who signed buyout agreements because they thought they would be dismissed under the policy, now find themselves unable to revoke those deals....


BUT! They're planning to open up a nursing program. (https://manhattan.edu/news/archive/2023/03/school-of-health-professions.php)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Langue_doc on March 03, 2024, 09:36:49 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 03, 2024, 09:28:19 AMManhattan College covers itself in more glory (or is it 'gory'?): (https://www.chronicle.com/article/these-tenured-professors-thought-they-were-safe-from-manhattan-colleges-latest-layoffs-they-were-wrong)

QuoteNearly two dozen faculty members at Manhattan College, most of them tenured, got word last month that they were being laid off. The decision appeared to contradict the "last-in, first-out" approach laid out last fall by the New York college's administrators, in which the newest employees would be the first to go.

In what felt to some faculty members like a bait and switch, several senior professors who assumed their jobs weren't at risk now face termination, while more-junior scholars, who signed buyout agreements because they thought they would be dismissed under the policy, now find themselves unable to revoke those deals....


BUT! They're planning to open up a nursing program. (https://manhattan.edu/news/archive/2023/03/school-of-health-professions.php)

Nursing programs seem to be quite profitable for institutions in and around NYC (just google nursing schools nyc). I can think of at least a couple of colleges that beefed up their nursing programs so that they could stay afloat.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on March 03, 2024, 10:11:14 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 03, 2024, 09:36:49 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 03, 2024, 09:28:19 AMManhattan College covers itself in more glory (or is it 'gory'?): (https://www.chronicle.com/article/these-tenured-professors-thought-they-were-safe-from-manhattan-colleges-latest-layoffs-they-were-wrong)

QuoteNearly two dozen faculty members at Manhattan College, most of them tenured, got word last month that they were being laid off. The decision appeared to contradict the "last-in, first-out" approach laid out last fall by the New York college's administrators, in which the newest employees would be the first to go.

In what felt to some faculty members like a bait and switch, several senior professors who assumed their jobs weren't at risk now face termination, while more-junior scholars, who signed buyout agreements because they thought they would be dismissed under the policy, now find themselves unable to revoke those deals....


BUT! They're planning to open up a nursing program. (https://manhattan.edu/news/archive/2023/03/school-of-health-professions.php)

Nursing programs seem to be quite profitable for institutions in and around NYC (just google nursing schools nyc). I can think of at least a couple of colleges that beefed up their nursing programs so that they could stay afloat.

In our state funding model, nursing programs generate massive deficits so they are severely limited. Then we wonder why students go to slightly shady private schools with federal financial loans. Taxpayers are still paying for the programs.
 
SMDH.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on March 03, 2024, 10:19:41 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 03, 2024, 09:36:49 AMNursing programs seem to be quite profitable for institutions in and around NYC (just google nursing schools nyc). I can think of at least a couple of colleges that beefed up their nursing programs so that they could stay afloat.

From my experience at several Northeast colleges/universities, Nursing programs are NOT money makers.  The cost of labs and equipment for training, and the cost (and limited availability) of clinical faculty and placements are significant burdens to the University.  My school keeps pushing for more and more nursing students (butts in seats) but balks at hiring FT faculty to teach them.  Our nursing program had to hire a PhD nursing faculty/ass. dean or lose their accreditation last year (and this is a high ranked program in the area).

Hospitals have nursing shortages, which impairs their ability to provide clinical training on-site.  Which means fewer nurses.  A vicious cycle.

Here's an article touching on some of these issues. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/11/04/colleges-and-universities-strive-graduate-more-nurses)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on March 03, 2024, 11:03:54 AM
Well, the axe just fell at Artem U.  The list of proposed programs to cut and faculty to downsize has been released.  Another 6 weeks worth of meetings and discussions to "approve" the recommendations before they are finalized.  But when is the last time any of these "recommendations" were not carried out when the time came.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 03, 2024, 03:15:11 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on March 03, 2024, 11:03:54 AMWell, the axe just fell at Artem U.  The list of proposed programs to cut and faculty to downsize has been released.  Another 6 weeks worth of meetings and discussions to "approve" the recommendations before they are finalized.  But when is the last time any of these "recommendations" were not carried out when the time came.

Sorry to hear that! Does it feel like there recommendations are "too little, too late" or is there potental for the consolidated effort to make headway? We have covered a lot of symptoms of winding down on this forum.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 03, 2024, 03:46:27 PM
Quote from: FishProf on March 03, 2024, 10:19:41 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 03, 2024, 09:36:49 AMNursing programs seem to be quite profitable for institutions in and around NYC (just google nursing schools nyc). I can think of at least a couple of colleges that beefed up their nursing programs so that they could stay afloat.

From my experience at several Northeast colleges/universities, Nursing programs are NOT money makers.  The cost of labs and equipment for training, and the cost (and limited availability) of clinical faculty and placements are significant burdens to the University.  My school keeps pushing for more and more nursing students (butts in seats) but balks at hiring FT faculty to teach them.  Our nursing program had to hire a PhD nursing faculty/ass. dean or lose their accreditation last year (and this is a high ranked program in the area).

Hospitals have nursing shortages, which impairs their ability to provide clinical training on-site.  Which means fewer nurses.  A vicious cycle.

Here's an article touching on some of these issues. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/11/04/colleges-and-universities-strive-graduate-more-nurses)

This is really illuminating.  Our shuddering but not yet foundering uni tanked its nursing program last year to many gasps of surprise.  Our doctors' offices all have staffing shortages.  Our GP has a sign at its front desk which reads "Please be patient.  We are short-staffed."

At some point society is going to have to make an adjustment for this shortfall. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on March 03, 2024, 05:14:39 PM
Quote from: Hibush on March 03, 2024, 03:15:11 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on March 03, 2024, 11:03:54 AMWell, the axe just fell at Artem U.  The list of proposed programs to cut and faculty to downsize has been released.  Another 6 weeks worth of meetings and discussions to "approve" the recommendations before they are finalized.  But when is the last time any of these "recommendations" were not carried out when the time came.

Sorry to hear that! Does it feel like there recommendations are "too little, too late" or is there potental for the consolidated effort to make headway? We have covered a lot of symptoms of winding down on this forum.

To the extent that it's actually possible, I think the general belief on campus is that the powers that be have genuinely tried to be as transparent and collegial as possible.  Faculty senate et al. have tried to look at the big picture - the health of the institution and not so much at the effects on Dept X or Program Y. Here's hoping that attitude remains.  But we are now at the point where people know what and who they are fighting for, so the gloves may come off and self-interest may yet prevail.

Ideally, we should have started this process 5 years ago but I don't think we are at the point of too little too late.  The wolf is not at the door, but we can hear him howling in the distance.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 03, 2024, 08:10:52 PM
Quote from: FishProf on March 03, 2024, 10:19:41 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 03, 2024, 09:36:49 AMNursing programs seem to be quite profitable for institutions in and around NYC (just google nursing schools nyc). I can think of at least a couple of colleges that beefed up their nursing programs so that they could stay afloat.

From my experience at several Northeast colleges/universities, Nursing programs are NOT money makers.  The cost of labs and equipment for training, and the cost (and limited availability) of clinical faculty and placements are significant burdens to the University.  My school keeps pushing for more and more nursing students (butts in seats) but balks at hiring FT faculty to teach them.  Our nursing program had to hire a PhD nursing faculty/ass. dean or lose their accreditation last year (and this is a high ranked program in the area).

Hospitals have nursing shortages, which impairs their ability to provide clinical training on-site.  Which means fewer nurses.  A vicious cycle.

Here's an article touching on some of these issues. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/11/04/colleges-and-universities-strive-graduate-more-nurses)

This has been my experience also.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Descartes on March 03, 2024, 08:28:19 PM
Quote from: emera gratia on February 29, 2024, 02:06:13 PMNotre Dame College of Ohio to close after this semester (https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cuyahoga-county/notre-dame-college-to-close-at-end-of-this-semester/95-ded59e15-51e5-4638-84ec-529621b4c29b); they tried to negotiate a merger with Cleveland State University, but apparently couldn't make it work.

You could see this coming from a mile away 10 years ago.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Langue_doc on March 04, 2024, 05:56:28 AM
Quote from: spork on March 03, 2024, 08:10:52 PM
Quote from: FishProf on March 03, 2024, 10:19:41 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 03, 2024, 09:36:49 AMNursing programs seem to be quite profitable for institutions in and around NYC (just google nursing schools nyc). I can think of at least a couple of colleges that beefed up their nursing programs so that they could stay afloat.

From my experience at several Northeast colleges/universities, Nursing programs are NOT money makers.  The cost of labs and equipment for training, and the cost (and limited availability) of clinical faculty and placements are significant burdens to the University.  My school keeps pushing for more and more nursing students (butts in seats) but balks at hiring FT faculty to teach them.  Our nursing program had to hire a PhD nursing faculty/ass. dean or lose their accreditation last year (and this is a high ranked program in the area).

Hospitals have nursing shortages, which impairs their ability to provide clinical training on-site.  Which means fewer nurses.  A vicious cycle.

Here's an article touching on some of these issues. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/11/04/colleges-and-universities-strive-graduate-more-nurses)

This has been my experience also.

I was thinking of some of the fly-by-night schools in the city, where the "school" is on one of the floors of a high-rise building. Some of them do get shut down--see the first one on the list (https://www.op.nysed.gov/professions/registered-professional-nursing/nursing-education/new-york-state-nursing-programs/nursing-education)--, but not before gouging students.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: AmLitHist on March 04, 2024, 07:10:51 AM
So sorry to hear this, Artem.  Thinking of you and your colleagues.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on March 04, 2024, 07:25:43 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on March 04, 2024, 07:10:51 AMSo sorry to hear this, Artem.  Thinking of you and your colleagues.

Thank you for the kind thoughts!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 04, 2024, 08:01:10 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 03, 2024, 03:46:27 PM
Quote from: FishProf on March 03, 2024, 10:19:41 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 03, 2024, 09:36:49 AMNursing programs seem to be quite profitable for institutions in and around NYC (just google nursing schools nyc). I can think of at least a couple of colleges that beefed up their nursing programs so that they could stay afloat.

From my experience at several Northeast colleges/universities, Nursing programs are NOT money makers.  The cost of labs and equipment for training, and the cost (and limited availability) of clinical faculty and placements are significant burdens to the University.  My school keeps pushing for more and more nursing students (butts in seats) but balks at hiring FT faculty to teach them.  Our nursing program had to hire a PhD nursing faculty/ass. dean or lose their accreditation last year (and this is a high ranked program in the area).

Hospitals have nursing shortages, which impairs their ability to provide clinical training on-site.  Which means fewer nurses.  A vicious cycle.

Here's an article touching on some of these issues. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/11/04/colleges-and-universities-strive-graduate-more-nurses)

This is really illuminating.  Our shuddering but not yet foundering uni tanked its nursing program last year to many gasps of surprise.  Our doctors' offices all have staffing shortages.  Our GP has a sign at its front desk which reads "Please be patient.  We are short-staffed."

At some point society is going to have to make an adjustment for this shortfall. 

Sounds like another case of the almighty Market falling down on the job when it comes to providing a public good.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: bio-nonymous on March 04, 2024, 08:53:51 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 04, 2024, 08:01:10 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 03, 2024, 03:46:27 PM
Quote from: FishProf on March 03, 2024, 10:19:41 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 03, 2024, 09:36:49 AMNursing programs seem to be quite profitable for institutions in and around NYC (just google nursing schools nyc). I can think of at least a couple of colleges that beefed up their nursing programs so that they could stay afloat.

From my experience at several Northeast colleges/universities, Nursing programs are NOT money makers.  The cost of labs and equipment for training, and the cost (and limited availability) of clinical faculty and placements are significant burdens to the University.  My school keeps pushing for more and more nursing students (butts in seats) but balks at hiring FT faculty to teach them.  Our nursing program had to hire a PhD nursing faculty/ass. dean or lose their accreditation last year (and this is a high ranked program in the area).

Hospitals have nursing shortages, which impairs their ability to provide clinical training on-site.  Which means fewer nurses.  A vicious cycle.

Here's an article touching on some of these issues. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/11/04/colleges-and-universities-strive-graduate-more-nurses)

This is really illuminating.  Our shuddering but not yet foundering uni tanked its nursing program last year to many gasps of surprise.  Our doctors' offices all have staffing shortages.  Our GP has a sign at its front desk which reads "Please be patient.  We are short-staffed."

At some point society is going to have to make an adjustment for this shortfall. 

Sounds like another case of the almighty Market falling down on the job when it comes to providing a public good.
If am RN (with a good chunk of overtime) can make more than a Nursing Professor, there is little incentive for this nursing shortage to go away. Finding instructors in nursing, and other allied health professions for that matter, is very challenging. I think that, in this case, throwing money at the problem may be a solution--albeit one that universities and legislatures are loath to consider.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 04, 2024, 09:35:59 AM
QuoteSounds like another case of the almighty Market falling down on the job when it comes to providing a public good.

Watch your language!

Nursing does not provide a public good. The service a nurse provides me cannot be consumed by my neighbor. All of medicine -- except public health [note the name] provides strictly private goods.

The number of nurses per capita in the US has increased rapidly. However, an odd thing happened in 2021. About 100,000 nurses dropped out of their profession. This could be a temporary drop caused by Covid. Whatever.

But nursing providing private goods means market would work. 'Ya want more nurses, raise their wages!

QuoteI think that, in this case, throwing money at the problem may be a solution--albeit one that universities and legislatures are loath to consider.

But all of health care is highly regulated by government. Same is true for financing nurse education, of course. That makes a wage rise a political issue, and nobody wants to pay!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: methodsman on March 04, 2024, 10:16:23 AM
"Based on last fall's enrollment numbers, the cuts would affect 147 undergraduates and 287 graduate students, and would result in as many as 169 faculty-line reductions."

https://www.chronicle.com/article/why-is-west-virginia-u-making-sweeping-cuts

2.6 to 1 major to faculty ratio among those programs.  That's outstanding, and not in a good way. I am sure their class enrollments were regularly in the single digits. 

It's really not a good time to be a faculty member in languages, humanities and social sciences.  Tenure is on it's way out.  But, it was a sweet sweet ride while it lasted, wasn't it?

mm
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on March 04, 2024, 10:58:00 AM
Our president just resigned. I have no reason to be suspicious, save that he was rather optimistic about our international student numbers (which we absolutely depend on) despite the federal cap, which seemed... Not correct.

Perhaps it's the beginning of the end.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on March 04, 2024, 11:35:17 AM
Quote from: dismalist on March 04, 2024, 09:35:59 AM
QuoteSounds like another case of the almighty Market falling down on the job when it comes to providing a public good.

Watch your language!

Nursing does not provide a public good. The service a nurse provides me cannot be consumed by my neighbor. All of medicine -- except public health [note the name] provides strictly private goods.

The number of nurses per capita in the US has increased rapidly. However, an odd thing happened in 2021. About 100,000 nurses dropped out of their profession. This could be a temporary drop caused by Covid. Whatever.

But nursing providing private goods means market would work. 'Ya want more nurses, raise their wages!


Are human beings worth more dead than alive?

So a nurse keeping someone alive, or at least healthy enough to contribute to the overall economy, is a public good or a private good?

Every other civilized country treats health care as a public good for that very reason.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 04, 2024, 11:53:54 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 04, 2024, 11:35:17 AM
Quote from: dismalist on March 04, 2024, 09:35:59 AM
QuoteSounds like another case of the almighty Market falling down on the job when it comes to providing a public good.

Watch your language!

Nursing does not provide a public good. The service a nurse provides me cannot be consumed by my neighbor. All of medicine -- except public health [note the name] provides strictly private goods.

The number of nurses per capita in the US has increased rapidly. However, an odd thing happened in 2021. About 100,000 nurses dropped out of their profession. This could be a temporary drop caused by Covid. Whatever.

But nursing providing private goods means market would work. 'Ya want more nurses, raise their wages!


Are human beings worth more dead than alive?

So a nurse keeping someone alive, or at least healthy enough to contribute to the overall economy, is a public good or a private good?

Every other civilized country treats health care as a public good for that very reason.


In other countries it's a publicly financed good. Calling health care a public good is pure rhetoric, aimed at the emotions, not at understanding allocation decisions. It's a more complicated way of justifying "I want more".

Are human beings worth more dead than alive is also a purely rhetorical question. What most people produce they also consume, so they're not contributing to anything except themselves. For the rich it's different, for we have a progressive tax system in which they pay more in taxes than they derive in benefits. Poor people consume more than they produce. This redistribution is not at all undesirable. It's like insurance.

 I wish we had more rich people.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 04, 2024, 12:15:22 PM
Let it all crumble.

Either people will begin to regret letting so many of our colleges wither, or...

This is a period of necessary corrective die-offs like any disease that takes out the weak in the herd. College will be business training----but that's what people want.  The strong universities will still have a humanities fringe.  Next up are the majority of PhD programs now that there is no professional future in it.

Maybe it is for the best that the humanities retrench themselves to the dilettantes, geniuses, and intrinsically creative types out there in the world.  There was a time not so long ago that writers were produced by culture, not by MFA programs.  And with the Internet, anyone can be a literary critic, and many folks are just that without the esteem of a university title.   

Languages will be lost on most, sadly, but there are many training tools online.  I don't know how social sciences will preserver without a university, but I don't know much about them.

It is a bummer, however.

Hope your prez is just resigning for a run-of-the-mill scandal, Para, and nothing more dire.
 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on March 04, 2024, 02:35:22 PM
It's bad enough all of these colleges are closing, but now the world has to end, too?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 04, 2024, 03:25:38 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 04, 2024, 11:53:54 AMIn other countries it's a publicly financed good. Calling health care a public good is pure rhetoric, aimed at the emotions, not at understanding allocation decisions.


What about public good of not having to face the externalities of poverty, homelessness, etc? People pay big bucks to live in neighbourhoods without graffiti, crime, vandalism, etc. I would say in countries with more government services most people would see living in cleaner, safer cities as a very definite public good. Real estate prices are probably useful as a proxy for how much dollar value people put on those things.

 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 04, 2024, 03:39:19 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 04, 2024, 03:25:38 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 04, 2024, 11:53:54 AMIn other countries it's a publicly financed good. Calling health care a public good is pure rhetoric, aimed at the emotions, not at understanding allocation decisions.


What about public good of not having to face the externalities of poverty, homelessness, etc? People pay big bucks to live in neighbourhoods without graffiti, crime, vandalism, etc. I would say in countries with more government services most people would see living in cleaner, safer cities as a very definite public good. Real estate prices are probably useful as a proxy for how much dollar value people put on those things.

 

You're putting too much stuff in there, Marsh. Take things one cause at a time.

Greater health care financing will not affect graffiti except second order. Attack externality problems at source: Not Mothers against Drunk Driving causing the drinking age to be raised, and inducing binge drinking as a substitute, but rather, spot checks to deter drunk driving. And on and on.

Real estate prices are for shit, for the supply of housing is restricted by political means -- called zoning. Supply is political. The problem is us.

Now, I don't mean this seriously, but I wish that you could laugh with me: Externalities are the last argument of a scoundrel! :-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on March 04, 2024, 08:04:35 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 04, 2024, 11:53:54 AMAre human beings worth more dead than alive is also a purely rhetorical question. What most people produce they also consume, so they're not contributing to anything except themselves. For the rich it's different, for we have a progressive tax system in which they pay more in taxes than they derive in benefits. Poor people consume more than they produce. This redistribution is not at all undesirable. It's like insurance.

Really? So there is no such thing as  surplus value?' (//'https://www.britannica.com/money/surplus-value)

I leave you with this New Yorker cartoon. (https://condenaststore.com/featured/money-doesnt-trickle-down-unless-theres-a-damn-william-hamilton.html)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 05, 2024, 06:18:31 AM
Quote from: dismalist on March 04, 2024, 03:39:19 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 04, 2024, 03:25:38 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 04, 2024, 11:53:54 AMIn other countries it's a publicly financed good. Calling health care a public good is pure rhetoric, aimed at the emotions, not at understanding allocation decisions.


What about public good of not having to face the externalities of poverty, homelessness, etc? People pay big bucks to live in neighbourhoods without graffiti, crime, vandalism, etc. I would say in countries with more government services most people would see living in cleaner, safer cities as a very definite public good. Real estate prices are probably useful as a proxy for how much dollar value people put on those things.

 

You're putting too much stuff in there, Marsh. Take things one cause at a time.

Greater health care financing will not affect graffiti except second order. Attack externality problems at source: Not Mothers against Drunk Driving causing the drinking age to be raised, and inducing binge drinking as a substitute, but rather, spot checks to deter drunk driving. And on and on.


From the IMF:
QuotePublic goods are those that are available to all ("nonexcludable") and that can be enjoyed over and over again by anyone without diminishing the benefits they deliver to others ("nonrival"). The scope of public goods can be local, national, or global. Public fireworks are a local public good, as anyone within eyeshot can enjoy the show.

What is, and is not, a public good is somewhat in the eye of the society. If everyone, or even a majority, is willing  to pay for decorative lightposts, then decorative lightposts are a public good. What each society is willing to pay for is a reflection of what that society values as a public good, but there's no guarantee that different societies will have the same values.


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on March 05, 2024, 09:11:51 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 05, 2024, 06:18:31 AMFrom the IMF:
QuotePublic goods are those that are available to all ("nonexcludable") and that can be enjoyed over and over again by anyone without diminishing the benefits they deliver to others ("nonrival"). The scope of public goods can be local, national, or global. Public fireworks are a local public good, as anyone within eyeshot can enjoy the show.

What is, and is not, a public good is somewhat in the eye of the society. If everyone, or even a majority, is willing  to pay for decorative lightposts, then decorative lightposts are a public good. What each society is willing to pay for is a reflection of what that society values as a public good, but there's no guarantee that different societies will have the same values.

Another definition of "public goods" is that they have a greater benefit to the overall society than any one individual. Governments are good funders of these goods because it is difficult to get individuals to pay up, yet without these economic and civil society are a hot mess.

Roads, shipping ports, and airports help transport essential goods, making them less expensive and more accessible. But one person, or even group of people, doesn't have the resources to build an airport or capture the long term return on investment on that airport.

Schools make people educated and create doctors, engineers, entrepreneurs, inventors, and even musicians and artists so people can enjoy the creations of those entrepreneurs and inventors. But if you try to privatize the cost of education, not as many people would take advantage of it for themselves or their children.

Health care makes people able to contribute to the overall well-being of society by working to contribute economically, caring for family members, and so on.  But how many people avoid going to the doctor because they don't want to pay a small co-pay and end up with a serious condition because something minor went unchecked?

The list goes on.





Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 05, 2024, 09:25:09 AM
You don't have to read Paul Romer's work to understand what a public good is. The definition is quite simple. And it's not what people here (except for dismalist) are talking about.

Universities, home builders, and string quartets have all behaved similarly in respect to productivity gains over time.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on March 05, 2024, 09:51:32 AM
Quote from: spork on March 05, 2024, 09:25:09 AMYou don't have to read Paul Romer's work to understand what a public good is. The definition is quite simple. And it's not what people here (except for dismalist) are talking about.

Universities, home builders, and string quartets have all behaved similarly in respect to productivity gains over time.

You and the dismal one make an interesting argument.

But......

Economists can define "public good" however they want, but it appears that the rest of us, in the great unwashed, disagree.

It's a bit like "liberal".  Political scientists can define this as they wish, but the public has devised its own definition and it has nothing to do with classical liberalism.

Experts can do what they like. But once their work or vocabulary enters the public consciousness, I would argue that the experts have lost control of the discussion.

Surely dismalist would see this as the success of the marketplace where the rest of us have decided on the appropriate definition?  8-)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 05, 2024, 09:56:09 AM
Quote from: spork on March 05, 2024, 09:25:09 AMYou don't have to read Paul Romer's work to understand what a public good is. The definition is quite simple. And it's not what people here (except for dismalist) are talking about.

Universities, home builders, and string quartets have all behaved similarly in respect to productivity gains over time.

So is the IMF definition wrong?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 10:39:52 AM
Playing with definitions gets one nowhere. It does confirm my belief that when trying to use a science they do not understand humans start with a conclusion and then string some words together to make the conclusion seem cogent. The theory of relativity shows that everything is relative, right? :-)

Surplus value is a useful enough concept in analyzing a slave society. The slave can be said to produce surplus value in a labor theory of value. But we don't live in a slave society and the labor theory of value has been superseded 150 years ago. Charley Marx got it wrong, very wrong.

QuotePublic goods are those that are available to all ("nonexcludable") and that can be enjoyed over and over again by anyone without diminishing the benefits they deliver to others ("nonrival"). The scope of public goods can be local, national, or global. Public fireworks are a local public good, as anyone within eyeshot can enjoy the show.

That's standard, but a tad convoluted.

The main concept is "nonrival". The 101st Airborne Div protects me and my neighbors at the same time.

"Non-excludable" was added by one Richard Musgrave in the 1950's.

And yes, the scope of public goods can vary, with local being the most useful. There are very few pure public goods where one can just keep adding consumers, defense being one.

The point for organizing supply is that without excludability the market will underproduce a pure public good. It will be underproduced even with exclusion, except when there is perfect price discrimination! [This is why I don't like adding "excludability' to the definition, but that's my problem.]

So, we come full circle: The market generally underproduces pure public goods. So it's effective rhetoric to call everything in  sight a public good so that the government can do it!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 05, 2024, 10:54:22 AM
Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 10:39:52 AMPlaying with definitions gets one nowhere. It does confirm my belief that when trying to use a science they do not understand humans start with a conclusion and then string some words together to make the conclusion seem cogent. The theory of relativity shows that everything is relative, right? :-)

Surplus value is a useful enough concept in analyzing a slave society. The slave can be said to produce surplus value in a labor theory of value. But we don't live in a slave society and the labor theory of value has been superseded 150 years ago. Charley Marx got it wrong, very wrong.

QuotePublic goods are those that are available to all ("nonexcludable") and that can be enjoyed over and over again by anyone without diminishing the benefits they deliver to others ("nonrival"). The scope of public goods can be local, national, or global. Public fireworks are a local public good, as anyone within eyeshot can enjoy the show.

That's standard, but a tad convoluted.

The main concept is "nonrival". The 101st Airborne Div protects me and my neighbors at the same time.

"Non-excludable" was added by one Richard Musgrave in the 1950's.

And yes, the scope of public goods can vary, with local being the most useful. There are very few pure public goods where one can just keep adding consumers, defense being one.


A homeless encampment in a public park makes the park less enjoyable for everyone. The people in the encampment can be removed to jail, or to public housing. Is the cost of putting them in jail a public good, since it restores everyone's enjoyment of the park? Is the cost of putting them in public housing a private good, (because its primary benefit is to them), or is it a public good since it lets everyone enjoy the park? If the cost of housing is less than the cost of jail, is it then a public good?

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 11:02:09 AM
Is this discussion binary?  Are the only choices -1)  Private good: let the market handle it1 OR  2) Public Good - Government's job?

Is there a middle ground where its neither/both?  The market won't provide it b/c the ROI isn't there, but the Gov't isn't the right place because it benefits the individual more than the group.

Nursing JOBS might be private goods, but a quality health care system seems more like a public good.

What am I missing?

1 Individual human misery be damned.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 11:12:53 AM
Cost is not a public good. Cost is cost.

The homeless encampment is a negative externality problem, not a public goods problem. Who owns the park, the homeless or the non-homeless? If the homeless own the park, the non-homeless could pay the homeless to leave. If the non-homeless own the park they, they could be bribed by the homeless to leave. This last will not happen, so just build a fence if the non-homeless own the park. 


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 11:31:17 AM
Quote from: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 11:02:09 AMIs this discussion binary?  Are the only choices -1)  Private good: let the market handle it1 OR  2) Public Good - Government's job?

Is there a middle ground where its neither/both?  The market won't provide it b/c the ROI isn't there, but the Gov't isn't the right place because it benefits the individual more than the group.

Nursing JOBS might be private goods, but a quality health care system seems more like a public good.

What am I missing?

1 Individual human misery be damned.

There is a middle ground, capacity constraints. Take a classroom. It's a public good until it is full. Then it becomes a private good. So, the market can handle this as you can exclude.

Benefits the individual more than the group? I don't follow.

Health system as a public good? No. I can't consume your health! But again, the public health system is producing a public good. Your innoculation protects me.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on March 05, 2024, 11:42:14 AM
Quote from: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 11:02:09 AMIs this discussion binary?  Are the only choices -1)  Private good: let the market handle it1 OR  2) Public Good - Government's job?

Is there a middle ground where its neither/both?  The market won't provide it b/c the ROI isn't there, but the Gov't isn't the right place because it benefits the individual more than the group.

Nursing JOBS might be private goods, but a quality health care system seems more like a public good.

What am I missing?

1 Individual human misery be damned.

If someone personally benefits from something, such as the education that brings them a salary, that doesn't necessarily make it a private good.

Food is generally considered a private good. I eat it, I benefit. Everyone else kind of benefits because I'm not quite so cranky but... hey. Kind of a stretch to call it a public good.

Education brings personal benefits, but it also brings overall societal benefits that are beyond the immediate benefits to the recipient. That person can work to produce at a higher level for the overall economy, contribute to taxes for the greater good, provide services such as saving lives and designing bridges that make us all more productive. That's why it is a public good. Ditto health care, public infrastructure, etc.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 12:12:52 PM
Dismalist says: "Nursing does not provide a public good. The service a nurse provides me cannot be consumed by my neighbor. All of medicine -- except public health [note the name] provides strictly private goods."1

But...
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 05, 2024, 11:42:14 AMEducation brings personal benefits, but it also brings overall societal benefits that are beyond the immediate benefits to the recipient. That person can work to produce at a higher level for the overall economy, contribute to taxes for the greater good, provide services such as saving lives and designing bridges that make us all more productive. That's why it is a public good. Ditto health care, public infrastructure, etc.

This conversation was kicked off by the discussion about nursing programs not providing enough nurses for the need.  The question is whether providing nursing education programs in a world with a severe shortage of nurses is a public good (and hence, appropriate for governments to do).

It seems there is a middle ground of things that are/can be both public and/or private goods.  What do/should we do in those cases?

1  Is it just the name? FishProfU has a program in "Public Health Nursing" which only differs from the standard Nursing major in that you get your RN AND a BS in Public Health.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:15:51 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 05, 2024, 11:42:14 AM
Quote from: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 11:02:09 AMIs this discussion binary?  Are the only choices -1)  Private good: let the market handle it1 OR  2) Public Good - Government's job?

Is there a middle ground where its neither/both?  The market won't provide it b/c the ROI isn't there, but the Gov't isn't the right place because it benefits the individual more than the group.

Nursing JOBS might be private goods, but a quality health care system seems more like a public good.

What am I missing?

1 Individual human misery be damned.

If someone personally benefits from something, such as the education that brings them a salary, that doesn't necessarily make it a private good.

Food is generally considered a private good. I eat it, I benefit. Everyone else kind of benefits because I'm not quite so cranky but... hey. Kind of a stretch to call it a public good.

Education brings personal benefits, but it also brings overall societal benefits that are beyond the immediate benefits to the recipient. That person can work to produce at a higher level for the overall economy, contribute to taxes for the greater good, provide services such as saving lives and designing bridges that make us all more productive. That's why it is a public good. Ditto health care, public infrastructure, etc.

That's way too broad! Better education makes you more productive, and you collect the extra product attributed to you as a wage. Which is why we have loans to pay for education. You also make others more productive,  which they collect as a wage. Nothing public about this. Extra taxes are part of extra product. No double counting, please. :-)

Saving lives and designing bridges gets paid for equal to their extra value, here largely by government. That makes them publicly funded, not public.

Public infrastructure is a public good insofar as it is unlimited access. A toll road is not a public good.

The big class of publicness is basic research. Private enterprise can't exclude, so it's done in universities and largely funded by government.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 12:20:35 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:15:51 PMThat's way too broad!

You keep saying that.  How about a clear definition of public vs. private goods so we don't talk past one another?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:21:59 PM
Quote from: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 12:12:52 PMDismalist says: "Nursing does not provide a public good. The service a nurse provides me cannot be consumed by my neighbor. All of medicine -- except public health [note the name] provides strictly private goods."1

But...
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 05, 2024, 11:42:14 AMEducation brings personal benefits, but it also brings overall societal benefits that are beyond the immediate benefits to the recipient. That person can work to produce at a higher level for the overall economy, contribute to taxes for the greater good, provide services such as saving lives and designing bridges that make us all more productive. That's why it is a public good. Ditto health care, public infrastructure, etc.

This conversation was kicked off by the discussion about nursing programs not providing enough nurses for the need.  The question is whether providing nursing education programs in a world with a severe shortage of nurses is a public good (and hence, appropriate for governments to do).

It seems there is a middle ground of things that are/can be both public and/or private goods.  What do/should we do in those cases?

1  Is it just the name? FishProfU has a program in "Public Health Nursing" which only differs from the standard Nursing major in that you get your RN AND a BS in Public Health.

It's not just the name. A nurse who splints my broken arm is helping me and only me. A nurse who gives you a shot of flu vaccine is helping you and me.

As far as the education is concerned nurses to be can and do borrow to go into health care. Public health is taken care of by government because we have too little incentive to do it ourselves.

Quote from: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 12:20:35 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:15:51 PMThat's way too broad!

You keep saying that.  How about a clear definition of public vs. private goods so we don't talk past one another?

A public good is one for which you and I can consume it without diminishing the other's ability to consume it. If I consume an apple you can't consume it, so the apple is private. The 101st Airborne Div protects you and me, and I don't reduce the protection it affords you, so its public.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 12:33:50 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:21:59 PM
Quote from: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 12:12:52 PM1  Is it just the name? FishProfU has a program in "Public Health Nursing" which only differs from the standard Nursing major in that you get your RN AND a BS in Public Health.

It's not just the name. A nurse who splints my broken arm is helping me and only me. A nurse who gives you a shot of flu vaccine is helping you and me.
You seem to be equivocating here.  This can be the same nurse.  Is this nursing a public or private good?

Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:21:59 PMAs far as the education is concerned nurses to be can and do borrow to go into health care. Public health is taken care of by government because we have too little incentive to do it ourselves.
You seem to be equivocating here as well.  You talk about the individual nurse and then pivot to the public healthcare system.  Is this nursing training a public or private good? 

Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:21:59 PMHow about a clear definition of public vs. private goods so we don't talk past one another?

A public good is one for which you and I can consume it without diminishing the other's ability to consume it. If I consume an apple you can't consume it, so the apple is private. The 101st Airborne Div protects you and me, and I don't reduce the protection it affords you, so its public.
[/quote]

You have an example of a good (apple) contrasted with a service (protection).  That doesn't seem to be an apples to apples comparison (pun intended).

Again I ask, is there any middle ground (as I think nursing may be) or is it binary?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:47:19 PM
I don't equivocate. :-)

It's not the nurse that' of interest, it's what she's producing. She could treat my arm one hour, producing a private good, and give vaccines the next hour, producing a public good.

Nurse training is always private because the nurse receives the extra cash due to her higher productivity. What the nurse does is what determines whether a public or private good is produced. The public good production is financed by the government.

To an economist, a good is a service is a good is a service! :-) The distinction doesn't matter here.

As I said, there's a middle ground, where the good or service production is capacity constrained. But the market can handle that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 02:04:10 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:47:19 PMI don't equivocate. :-)

As I said, there's a middle ground, where the good or service production is capacity constrained. But the market can handle that.
I really mean an equivocation fallacy where the meaning of a term shifts in the middle of the argument.

Can you elaborate on 'capacity constrained'?

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 02:19:31 PM
Quote from: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 02:04:10 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:47:19 PMI don't equivocate. :-)

As I said, there's a middle ground, where the good or service production is capacity constrained. But the market can handle that.
I really mean an equivocation fallacy where the meaning of a term shifts in the middle of the argument.

Can you elaborate on 'capacity constrained'?



As I said, I don't equivocate.

Capacity constrained? Sure. [These are called "club goods", by the way.]

Take a swimming pool. If one person swims in it, and I come into it, and I don't get into the first person's way, we have a public good until capacity is reached. Then it becomes a private good. The market can efficiently provide the right number of swimming pools if we can exclude. Charge admission to finance the swimming pool.

To stick with this example, the case of the pure public good would be a swimming pool of infinite size -- never congested even for the whole world. That's a reason not to expect too many pure public goods. But club goods are ubiquitous.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 05, 2024, 06:16:49 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:47:19 PMIt's not the nurse that' of interest, it's what she's producing. She could treat my arm one hour, producing a private good, and give vaccines the next hour, producing a public good.


I'm curious about how vaccines are a public good. Most of the benefit of vaccination accrues to the person receiving it. The increased protection to anyone else is infinitesimal, until the vaccination rate is close to 100%, at which point every individual has received the private good of the vaccination.

What conditions are necessary for something like that to count as a public good, when it is delivered to individuals?
 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 06:51:51 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 05, 2024, 06:16:49 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:47:19 PMIt's not the nurse that' of interest, it's what she's producing. She could treat my arm one hour, producing a private good, and give vaccines the next hour, producing a public good.


I'm curious about how vaccines are a public good. Most of the benefit of vaccination accrues to the person receiving it. The increased protection to anyone else is infinitesimal, until the vaccination rate is close to 100%, at which point every individual has received the private good of the vaccination.

What conditions are necessary for something like that to count as a public good, when it is delivered to individuals?
 

The increased protection to me and others is small if you get vaccinated, but we don't consume your vaccine to get that protection. Phenomena like this have been called "goods with some publicness".

'Twould be better to consider this an externality problem, where it is intuitive that pollution harms me a bit and as in your vaccination helps me a little.

The pure public good has also been described as an extreme form of externality.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on March 05, 2024, 06:53:06 PM
Herd immunity requires a large percentage of the pop to be vaxxed, but not 100%.

In any case, whoever is vaxxed and thereby does not get sick spares society the various costs of his being sick.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 05, 2024, 07:14:46 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 05, 2024, 06:16:49 PMWhat conditions are necessary for something like that to count as a public good, when it is delivered to individuals?

How else is a "good" delivered except to individuals in one form or another?

Even if you give a demographic something (like giving every redhead born in a leap year $100) or a business sector (tax breaks to every basket weaver) it is still delivered to an individual, even if it means a gift or a bonus or a raise or job creation.

But...

Take this over here rather than derailing this thread: https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=3757.0

That's what it is there for.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hegemony on March 05, 2024, 08:31:31 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 05, 2024, 06:16:49 PMMost of the benefit of vaccination accrues to the person receiving it. The increased protection to anyone else is infinitesimal, until the vaccination rate is close to 100%, at which point every individual has received the private good of the vaccination.

Yeah, that's not true at all. Once the vaccination rate has reached a certain point, which has been regularly reached for most diseases in the U.S. for decades, the benefits are enormous for everyone. Vaccination not only protects individuals, it suppresses transmission. Part of the reason you haven't suffered from measles is because you're vaccinated (I assume) against measles; but the other part is that you're never exposed to measles, because transmission rates and therefore occurrence rates are very low, because a sufficient percentage of the population is vaccinated against measles.

The vaccination rate is even more important for the people who can't get vaccinated — infants, people with compromised immune systems, and so on. They depend on the suppression of transmission alone for their protection.

And measles is nothing to laugh about. For one thing, it hobbles the immune system, so after you've had the measles, you'll be more vulnerable to everything else that comes down the pike for a good long time. The measles fatality rate developing countries, with low vaccination rates, can be as high as 15%. And surviving measles doesn't mean you're home free — I know someone who is deaf because he had measles as a child, before the measles vaccine was widespread.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 06, 2024, 05:43:02 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on March 05, 2024, 08:31:31 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 05, 2024, 06:16:49 PMMost of the benefit of vaccination accrues to the person receiving it. The increased protection to anyone else is infinitesimal, until the vaccination rate is close to 100%, at which point every individual has received the private good of the vaccination.

Yeah, that's not true at all. Once the vaccination rate has reached a certain point, which has been regularly reached for most diseases in the U.S. for decades, the benefits are enormous for everyone. Vaccination not only protects individuals, it suppresses transmission. Part of the reason you haven't suffered from measles is because you're vaccinated (I assume) against measles; but the other part is that you're never exposed to measles, because transmission rates and therefore occurrence rates are very low, because a sufficient percentage of the population is vaccinated against measles.

The vaccination rate is even more important for the people who can't get vaccinated — infants, people with compromised immune systems, and so on. They depend on the suppression of transmission alone for their protection.

And measles is nothing to laugh about. For one thing, it hobbles the immune system, so after you've had the measles, you'll be more vulnerable to everything else that comes down the pike for a good long time. The measles fatality rate developing countries, with low vaccination rates, can be as high as 15%. And surviving measles doesn't mean you're home free — I know someone who is deaf because he had measles as a child, before the measles vaccine was widespread.

I agree with all that. I'm just surprised that dismalist is so willing to call vaccination a public good, while ( I think) dismissing something like providing housing for homeless people so that there isn't an encampment in a public park which reduces everyone else's enjoyment of it.

The point I was making is that in countries with more social programs and spending than the U.S., most people would probably say that having public spaces without visible poverty, homelessness, drug use, etc. is definitely a public good, because it makes it increases peoples' enjoyment of their public spaces.

Different people (and different societies) may place different monetary values on that, but I don't see how it's any less "real" than the value of vaccinations. (In case it's not obvious, I am very much in favour of vaccinations.)


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on March 06, 2024, 07:28:08 AM
Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:47:19 PMI don't equivocate. :-)

It's not the nurse that' of interest, it's what she's producing. She could treat my arm one hour, producing a private good, and give vaccines the next hour, producing a public good.

Nurse training is always private because the nurse receives the extra cash due to her higher productivity. What the nurse does is what determines whether a public or private good is produced. The public good production is financed by the government.

To an economist, a good is a service is a good is a service! :-) The distinction doesn't matter here.

As I said, there's a middle ground, where the good or service production is capacity constrained. But the market can handle that.

So... should kindergarten be privately financed because learning the alphabet only benefits the 5-year-old?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 06, 2024, 09:50:56 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 06, 2024, 07:28:08 AM
Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:47:19 PMI don't equivocate. :-)

It's not the nurse that' of interest, it's what she's producing. She could treat my arm one hour, producing a private good, and give vaccines the next hour, producing a public good.

Nurse training is always private because the nurse receives the extra cash due to her higher productivity. What the nurse does is what determines whether a public or private good is produced. The public good production is financed by the government.

To an economist, a good is a service is a good is a service! :-) The distinction doesn't matter here.

As I said, there's a middle ground, where the good or service production is capacity constrained. But the market can handle that.

So... should kindergarten be privately financed because learning the alphabet only benefits the 5-year-old?

Yes, of course! Learning the alphabet pays so much in the workforce compared to illiteracy that it'd be fine for parents to borrow to send their kiddies kindergarten. At least as significant, kindergarten is simultaneously day care, which is a consumption good. Why should I pay for somebody else's daycare. I can't consume somebody else's daycare.

I hope kindergarten is not compulsory.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on March 06, 2024, 12:56:23 PM
Where am I?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on March 06, 2024, 01:23:42 PM
Quote from: selecter on March 06, 2024, 12:56:23 PMWhere am I?

We are all in the Twilight Zone.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: FishProf on March 06, 2024, 01:48:50 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on March 06, 2024, 01:23:42 PM
Quote from: selecter on March 06, 2024, 12:56:23 PMWhere am I?

We are all in the Twilight Zone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1sf2CzEq0w).

FTFY
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on March 06, 2024, 02:17:51 PM
Not so much the Twilight Zone, but rather a disgustingly dystopian Ayn Rand nightmare.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 06, 2024, 02:39:34 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 06, 2024, 02:17:51 PMNot so much the Twilight Zone, but rather a disgustingly dystopian Ayn Rand nightmare.

Not at all, and nothing to do with me. Rand promoted egoism. Somebody might want to give to charity. Nothing wrong with that. My shtick is efficiency, not egoism.

I observe that an analysis of public goods goes in a direction virtually no one likes, because it doesn't support their previously formed conclusions, which were formed on other grounds. Such a discussion is about pure rhetoric, and not substance. One can have fun with that, I suppose.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: polly_mer on March 06, 2024, 07:36:12 PM
Drake University is cutting programs: https://iowacapitaldispatch.com/2024/03/04/drake-university-recommends-cutting-academic-programs-positions/

Connecticut state has some choices to make: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/government/state-policy/2024/03/06/lawmakers-college-leaders-clash-over-replacing-federal
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on March 06, 2024, 09:24:18 PM
Perhaps because no one else here agrees with you wrt the definition of 'public good'.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 07, 2024, 05:10:19 AM
A public good is generally non-excludable. It is completely different from "the public good."

Quote from: polly_mer on March 06, 2024, 07:36:12 PMDrake University is cutting programs: https://iowacapitaldispatch.com/2024/03/04/drake-university-recommends-cutting-academic-programs-positions/

Connecticut state has some choices to make: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/government/state-policy/2024/03/06/lawmakers-college-leaders-clash-over-replacing-federal

The problems facing Connecticut's universities stem from the effect of changes to the state's tax base:

Connecticut's city problem (https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/connecticut-tax-inequality-cities/532623/).
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 07, 2024, 07:42:30 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 06, 2024, 07:36:12 PMDrake University is cutting programs: https://iowacapitaldispatch.com/2024/03/04/drake-university-recommends-cutting-academic-programs-positions/

Connecticut state has some choices to make: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/government/state-policy/2024/03/06/lawmakers-college-leaders-clash-over-replacing-federal

No cuts to English, History, and arts at Drake?  Wonder if that means they've already eliminated most of those faculty and majors?

I noticed in looking at recent reports on the CSU situation that they're apparently losing nursing students due to cuts, bad living conditions in dorms, etc., all at a time when there's a growing shortage of nurses.  Miserly state legislatures have apparently figured they could run state higher education systems cheap if they'd just get rid of all those useless humanities profs and majors who were draining down the colleges' finances.  Now those are mostly gone, and they're finding that the deficits are only getting worse.  It's not your (usually starvation cheap) humanities people who are causing your deficits, it's relentlessly rising costs, declining student numbers, and the cumulative effects of decades of underinvestment.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on March 07, 2024, 08:50:44 AM
Thank you, Polly for bringing us back to this earth.

Along those same lines, at Valpo:
https://www.highereddive.com/news/valparaiso-university-to-weigh-cuts-28-programs/709227/


Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Cheerful on March 07, 2024, 09:34:22 AM
University of Toledo will suspend admissions and prepare to close a bunch of undergrad and grad programs next academic year:
https://www.utoledo.edu/offices/provost/prioritization/

They assert: "While there may be some immediate cost savings, the goals of this effort are more focused on growth as UToledo's student enrollment, retention and graduation rates improve as the University becomes more competitive."
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on March 07, 2024, 09:46:53 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 07, 2024, 07:42:30 AMIt's not your (usually starvation cheap) humanities people who are causing your deficits, it's relentlessly rising costs, declining student numbers, and the cumulative effects of decades of underinvestment.

Yep. Looking at Valpo, CSU, and Toledo ... these are schools that I thought were well resourced, but the enrollment trends are pretty brutal.

ARE there schools that trim this way and right the ship? Because this type of word of mouth isn't the least bit likely to attract students, even for programs that remain.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 07, 2024, 12:21:39 PM
Quote from: Cheerful on March 07, 2024, 09:34:22 AMUniversity of Toledo will suspend admissions and prepare to close a bunch of undergrad and grad programs next academic year:
https://www.utoledo.edu/offices/provost/prioritization/

They assert: "While there may be some immediate cost savings, the goals of this effort are more focused on growth as UToledo's student enrollment, retention and graduation rates improve as the University becomes more competitive."


Not sure what the distinction was in some cases--between "Media Communication" and "Communication Studies," or "Bachelor of Arts in Music" and "Bachelor of Music."  Looks like they may be eliminating some redundancies there.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 07, 2024, 12:32:59 PM
A "Bachelor of Arts in Music" is often a performance degree as opposed to a purely academic study degree, I believe. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on March 07, 2024, 06:16:30 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 07, 2024, 07:42:30 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 06, 2024, 07:36:12 PMDrake University is cutting programs: https://iowacapitaldispatch.com/2024/03/04/drake-university-recommends-cutting-academic-programs-positions/


No cuts to English, History, and arts at Drake?  Wonder if that means they've already eliminated most of those faculty and majors?


Nope  But they are opening a new nursing program.

https://www.drake.edu/nursing/index.php
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 07, 2024, 06:44:42 PM
Quote from: selecter on March 07, 2024, 09:46:53 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 07, 2024, 07:42:30 AMIt's not your (usually starvation cheap) humanities people who are causing your deficits, it's relentlessly rising costs, declining student numbers, and the cumulative effects of decades of underinvestment.

Yep. Looking at Valpo, CSU, and Toledo ... these are schools that I thought were well resourced, but the enrollment trends are pretty brutal.

ARE there schools that trim this way and right the ship? Because this type of word of mouth isn't the least bit likely to attract students, even for programs that remain.

No.

What it really means is that the Carnegie unit-credit hour/8 semester/auxiliary revenue business model needs to go away, but it won't, because a different model is not in the interests of those running the organizations.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 07, 2024, 07:03:10 PM
Quote from: selecter on March 07, 2024, 09:46:53 AMARE there schools that trim this way and right the ship? Because this type of word of mouth isn't the least bit likely to attract students, even for programs that remain.

In a sense, yes that sort of thing happens at schools that go on to do well, but perhaps a bit differently.

At a school whose ship is very steady, there is a lot of trimming, renovation and refreshing of the offerings all the time. New majors are announced on a regular basis. With constant faculty numbers, the addition also means that majors with declining enrollment go away. There is no press release announcing the end of the major, because it is not newsworthy.

The difference is probably that poorly managed schools don't have those new offerings in place in anticipation of the new needs. And the new needs are often similar to existing stuff--environmental science changes to sustainability science for instance. So the existing faculty and strong infrastructure are used to full extent (indeed they lead the effort.) It is not a situation like changing from Russian literature to nursing. 

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 07, 2024, 07:24:45 PM
Quote from: Hibush on March 07, 2024, 07:03:10 PM
Quote from: selecter on March 07, 2024, 09:46:53 AMARE there schools that trim this way and right the ship? Because this type of word of mouth isn't the least bit likely to attract students, even for programs that remain.

In a sense, yes that sort of thing happens at schools that go on to do well, but perhaps a bit differently.

This is what the shifting admin at my wife's uni is hoping for as they try to transition to a STEM / business school.

So far they have mostly had bad press.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: aside on March 08, 2024, 10:33:56 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 07, 2024, 12:21:39 PMNot sure what the distinction was in some cases--between "Media Communication" and "Communication Studies," or "Bachelor of Arts in Music" and "Bachelor of Music."  Looks like they may be eliminating some redundancies there.

A BA in Music is typically a liberal arts degree while a Bachelor of Music is a professional music degree.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 08, 2024, 10:45:09 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 07, 2024, 07:24:45 PM
Quote from: Hibush on March 07, 2024, 07:03:10 PM
Quote from: selecter on March 07, 2024, 09:46:53 AMARE there schools that trim this way and right the ship? Because this type of word of mouth isn't the least bit likely to attract students, even for programs that remain.

In a sense, yes that sort of thing happens at schools that go on to do well, but perhaps a bit differently.

This is what the shifting admin at my wife's uni is hoping for as they try to transition to a STEM / business school.

So far they have mostly had bad press.

Bad press is indeed not the product you want. Sorry to hear that.

Does the school already have the ingredients (staff, facilities, alumni) to reorganize into a good STEM Business school? Or are they trying to create one de novo and compete with a bunch of well-established and efficient producers of STEM and business graduates.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 08, 2024, 11:10:39 AM
Quote from: Hibush on March 08, 2024, 10:45:09 AMThis is what the shifting admin at my wife's uni is hoping for as they try to transition to a STEM / business school.

So far they have most
Quote from: Hibush on March 08, 2024, 10:45:09 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 07, 2024, 07:24:45 PM
Quote from: Hibush on March 07, 2024, 07:03:10 PM
Quote from: selecter on March 07, 2024, 09:46:53 AMARE there schools that trim this way and right the ship? Because this type of word of mouth isn't the least bit likely to attract students, even for programs that remain.

In a sense, yes that sort of thing happens at schools that go on to do well, but perhaps a bit differently.

This is what the shifting admin at my wife's uni is hoping for as they try to transition to a STEM / business school.

So far they have mostly had bad press.

Bad press is indeed not the product you want. Sorry to hear that.

Does the school already have the ingredients (staff, facilities, alumni) to reorganize into a good STEM Business school? Or are they trying to create one de novo and compete with a bunch of well-established and efficient producers of STEM and business graduates.
ly had bad press.

Bad press is indeed not the product you want. Sorry to hear that.

Does the school already have the ingredients (staff, facilities, alumni) to reorganize into a good STEM Business school? Or are they trying to create one de novo and compete with a bunch of well-established and efficient producers of STEM and business graduates.

Some from column A and some from column B.

The uni was a fairly typical R2 / Div II land grant, de facto open-enrollment institution with a healthy population of around 11K students (down from 15K at its height in 2010) which was hurt by COVID and now seems to be running into the demographic cliff made steeper by a declining regional population.  This is also an extremely Trumpy part of the world.

In short, the uni's brand was pretty darn generic and offered a typical breadth of majors...until the decline, and now low-enrollment majors and programs have been sliced and diced, and it is likely that more cuts are on the way. 

So, yeah, the school has a solid STEM program for the most part except that they cut nursing and have been shaving down chemistry. It does not seem that they want to expand, simply to shore up the meagre offerings already on the books.  It's hard to know since the admin is very tight lipped and the union is very adversarial toward them.

All of this (and some more specific and spectacular debacles) has gotten a lot of bad press and actually aggravated some doners enough to withdraw their funding.  The university foundation recently announced the stupidest plan to attract money I have ever heard.

I think the school will continue to limp around the block for a while, but it is already not the school it once was.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: jimbogumbo on March 08, 2024, 11:23:20 AM
Here's a place that really did it wrong, but sports goes on (for a bit): https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39684474/antelope-state-play-tournament-school-shutdown
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 08, 2024, 05:29:37 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on March 08, 2024, 11:23:20 AMHere's a place that really did it wrong, but sports goes on (for a bit): https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39684474/antelope-state-play-tournament-school-shutdown

Well, they raised the money themselves.  At least they get something out of their education. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on March 11, 2024, 09:24:06 AM
St. Norbert (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://wtaq.com/2024/03/08/st-norbert-college-announces-further-layoffs-amid-ongoing-budget-issues/&ved=2ahUKEwiQ4cuCz-yEAxVmIzQIHduLAT8QFnoECCIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2itVq-Ad11UBYtt3T34kNF) is now cutting all assistant professors in the humanities (apart from theology), and ending healthcare coverage for emeritus faculty over 65.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 11, 2024, 10:50:22 AM
Fontbonne U. will close. (https://www.stlpr.org/education/2024-03-11/fontbonne-university-to-close-citing-dwindling-endowment-enrollment)

Fontbonne was included on this list from 2018. (https://activelearningps.com/2018/12/24/happy-holidays-2018/)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 11, 2024, 11:00:14 AM
Has anyone produced any projections of how decreased capacity in the *system due to places closing tracks with decreasing enrollment over time? In other words, it the amount of excess capacity getting better (i.e. lower) or worse (i.e. larger)?

*I realize that each state kind of is its own "system" in this regard, but are there even projections for any specific states?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: AmLitHist on March 11, 2024, 12:05:00 PM
Quote from: spork on March 11, 2024, 10:50:22 AMFontbonne U. will close. (https://www.stlpr.org/education/2024-03-11/fontbonne-university-to-close-citing-dwindling-endowment-enrollment)

Fontbonne was included on this list from 2018. (https://activelearningps.com/2018/12/24/happy-holidays-2018/)

Not a surprise, but they hadn't been front-of-mind lately. I know a number of people who work there. This is tough news.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 11, 2024, 01:32:52 PM
Because of various articulations, almost half our English classes could be taught by high school teachers in a dual enrollment program.  It is not clear that these folks will even need a master's degree.  (We have a very nice, very weak chair with a big beard.  I love the guy...but he has all the force of a chipmunk...)

The admin is considering a Rosetta Stone online option for all foreign languages.

And the admin is experimenting with "academic cooperators" who do some of the recruiting and all of the grading as college instructors teach the classes en masse.

They did build a new surface parking lot last year, so at least there's that.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: kaysixteen on March 11, 2024, 07:39:01 PM
1) wouldn't your accreditors balk at having a bunch of BA'd hs teachers teaching college classes?

2) Rosetta Stone, Babel, etc.-- piss-poor substitutes for real, whole-orbed fl instruction.

3) wouldn't the idea of hiring graders for en masse (or any) college classes violate the real professors' academic freedom?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 11, 2024, 11:00:41 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 11, 2024, 07:39:01 PM1) wouldn't your accreditors balk at having a bunch of BA'd hs teachers teaching college classes?

Yes. 

I looked up the state laws today.  They are a bit confusing, but it looks like a master's is the minimum requirement although for some classes a master's in any discipline is sufficient as long as their is coursework in the subject area being taught.

Quote2) Rosetta Stone, Babel, etc.-- piss-poor substitutes for real, whole-orbed fl instruction.

3) wouldn't the idea of hiring graders for en masse (or any) college classes violate the real professors' academic freedom?

Yes and Yes.  I guess.

But college is too expensive.  These are cost-cutting measures, I am sure.  This is what happens. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on March 12, 2024, 02:37:02 AM
https://www.northernnewsnow.com/2024/03/12/northland-college-risk-permanent-closure-amid-funding-shortfall/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 12, 2024, 10:23:39 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 11, 2024, 09:24:06 AMSt. Norbert (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://wtaq.com/2024/03/08/st-norbert-college-announces-further-layoffs-amid-ongoing-budget-issues/&ved=2ahUKEwiQ4cuCz-yEAxVmIzQIHduLAT8QFnoECCIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2itVq-Ad11UBYtt3T34kNF) is now cutting all assistant professors in the humanities (apart from theology), and ending healthcare coverage for emeritus faculty over 65.

I didn't see from the article you linked where it says that they were eliminating most of their liberal arts positions.  Though it would hardly be surprising if that's who they're getting rid of.  But they're starting more sports teams to attract those who want to go to college to play sports, and they're breaking ground for an expanded business school, to compete with all the hundreds and hundreds of other business schools around the country.  All they need now is a new e-sports program, and a pharmacy school if they don't already have one.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 12, 2024, 10:34:43 AM
Quote from: selecter on March 12, 2024, 02:37:02 AMhttps://www.northernnewsnow.com/2024/03/12/northland-college-risk-permanent-closure-amid-funding-shortfall/

Let's see, Northland has programs with special focus on Native American nations and environmental sustainability.  So they've at least tried to do something distinctive, instead of the standard axe-all-liberal-arts, build-a-new-business-school, try-to-cater-to-youths with pathetic dreams of playing sports in collegestudent-athletes playbook.  Unfortunately it looks like seeking out a genuinely different and innovative mission hasn't worked for them. 

It's hard to see where they're going to get that $12 million they're looking for.  Now that they've admitted what trouble they're in, they're likely to have even more trouble recruiting enough students to stay in business. 

The article dryly observes that they are calling 2024-2025 a "transition year" without explaining what that means. 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 12, 2024, 10:41:29 AM
I recently had a chance to visit the campus of Henderson State University, which has appeared several times on this thread.  Looked like they were having a pretty normal spring day.  I couldn't help noticing something, though.  Their student housing includes two high-rise dorms built many years ago (My father laid the bricks on them, BTW--he's got some interesting stories to tell about that).  One is located across the highway from the main campus.  That dorm's parking lot was vacant when I visited, despite the rest of the campus being open and occupied.  Looks like they've put that building out of service and consolidated their remaining residential students in other on-campus housing.  That's a big chunk of their housing that's now standing vacant.  And not a great many years after they built a nice pedestrian bridge across the highway from the main campus, too.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 12, 2024, 11:09:35 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 12, 2024, 10:34:43 AMLet's see, Northland has programs with special focus on Native American nations and environmental sustainability.  So they've at least tried to do something distinctive, instead of the standard axe-all-liberal-arts, build-a-new-business-school, try-to-cater-to-youths with pathetic dreams of playing sports in collegestudent-athletes playbook.  Unfortunately it looks like seeking out a genuinely different and innovative mission hasn't worked for them.

Sorry to see this one not work out! Northland's challenge may fit in a different familiar category: having a distinctive mission to serve students who can't afford tuition and not having a huge independent funding stream to provide equivalent revenue.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on March 12, 2024, 11:40:33 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 12, 2024, 10:23:39 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 11, 2024, 09:24:06 AMSt. Norbert (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://wtaq.com/2024/03/08/st-norbert-college-announces-further-layoffs-amid-ongoing-budget-issues/&ved=2ahUKEwiQ4cuCz-yEAxVmIzQIHduLAT8QFnoECCIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2itVq-Ad11UBYtt3T34kNF) is now cutting all assistant professors in the humanities (apart from theology), and ending healthcare coverage for emeritus faculty over 65.

I didn't see from the article you linked where it says that they were eliminating most of their liberal arts positions.  Though it would hardly be surprising if that's who they're getting rid of.  But they're starting more sports teams to attract those who want to go to college to play sports, and they're breaking ground for an expanded business school, to compete with all the hundreds and hundreds of other business schools around the country.  All they need now is a new e-sports program, and a pharmacy school if they don't already have one.

It didn't. That came from a current faculty member being cut.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: secundem_artem on March 12, 2024, 12:14:02 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 12, 2024, 10:23:39 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 11, 2024, 09:24:06 AMSt. Norbert (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://wtaq.com/2024/03/08/st-norbert-college-announces-further-layoffs-amid-ongoing-budget-issues/&ved=2ahUKEwiQ4cuCz-yEAxVmIzQIHduLAT8QFnoECCIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2itVq-Ad11UBYtt3T34kNF) is now cutting all assistant professors in the humanities (apart from theology), and ending healthcare coverage for emeritus faculty over 65.

I didn't see from the article you linked where it says that they were eliminating most of their liberal arts positions.  Though it would hardly be surprising if that's who they're getting rid of.  But they're starting more sports teams to attract those who want to go to college to play sports, and they're breaking ground for an expanded business school, to compete with all the hundreds and hundreds of other business schools around the country.  All they need now is a new e-sports program, and a pharmacy school if they don't already have one.

Pharmacy enrollment has crashed over the last 5-6 years.  Over the last 30 years, every 2 bit bible college that could not make payroll opened a program.  Every town big enough to need 2 hookers opened a program.  In the early 90's there were ~ 75 pharmacy schools.  Now there are ~ 150.  Pass rates on national board exams at some of these places hover in the 60% range and a few are in the 50's. And board pass rates across the country have dropped for nearly all colleges as entrance standards get lower and lower in a dog fight to fill seats with tuition paying bodies.

Prospective students eventually figured out that a career of getting screamed at by patients upset about their insurance was not all that attractive. Add in the demographic cliff, and opening pharmacy school does not look like a smart move these days.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 12, 2024, 01:58:36 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on March 12, 2024, 12:14:02 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 12, 2024, 10:23:39 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 11, 2024, 09:24:06 AMSt. Norbert (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://wtaq.com/2024/03/08/st-norbert-college-announces-further-layoffs-amid-ongoing-budget-issues/&ved=2ahUKEwiQ4cuCz-yEAxVmIzQIHduLAT8QFnoECCIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2itVq-Ad11UBYtt3T34kNF) is now cutting all assistant professors in the humanities (apart from theology), and ending healthcare coverage for emeritus faculty over 65.

I didn't see from the article you linked where it says that they were eliminating most of their liberal arts positions.  Though it would hardly be surprising if that's who they're getting rid of.  But they're starting more sports teams to attract those who want to go to college to play sports, and they're breaking ground for an expanded business school, to compete with all the hundreds and hundreds of other business schools around the country.  All they need now is a new e-sports program, and a pharmacy school if they don't already have one.

Pharmacy enrollment has crashed over the last 5-6 years.  Over the last 30 years, every 2 bit bible college that could not make payroll opened a program.  Every town big enough to need 2 hookers opened a program.  In the early 90's there were ~ 75 pharmacy schools.  Now there are ~ 150.  Pass rates on national board exams at some of these places hover in the 60% range and a few are in the 50's. And board pass rates across the country have dropped for nearly all colleges as entrance standards get lower and lower in a dog fight to fill seats with tuition paying bodies.

Prospective students eventually figured out that a career of getting screamed at by patients upset about their insurance was not all that attractive. Add in the demographic cliff, and opening pharmacy school does not look like a smart move these days.

Yes, your comments in recent years about the proliferation of pharmacy schools made it evident that there was some kind of pharmacy major bubble going on that was bound to pop.  Trying to start a pharmacy major seems to have become as much a part of the standard trying-to-save-a-declining-SLAC playbook as amping up business majors or starting new sports teams.

I guess starting a pharmacy program was, or at least seemed to be, a relatively low-cost STEM program that schools that couldn't start a physics or nursing or medical program thought they could tackle to try to stay competitive in a world where all the students are heading into either STEM or business.  And I guess it was sold to prospective students as an in-demand STEM field that was perceived as easier to go into than nursing or what have you. 

The average youth only seems to be aware of about half a dozen or so careers that require a college education, and being a pharmacist is evidently one of them.  That or being a doctor or nurse, which is too haaaaaaard, or a teacher, which everybody knows is a drag, or law school, which is not in right now, or, if all else fails, being a business major.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Anselm on March 12, 2024, 02:37:12 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on March 11, 2024, 12:05:00 PM
Quote from: spork on March 11, 2024, 10:50:22 AMFontbonne U. will close. (https://www.stlpr.org/education/2024-03-11/fontbonne-university-to-close-citing-dwindling-endowment-enrollment)

Fontbonne was included on this list from 2018. (https://activelearningps.com/2018/12/24/happy-holidays-2018/)

Not a surprise, but they hadn't been front-of-mind lately. I know a number of people who work there. This is tough news.

Over 20 sports teams with 650 undergraduates might have broken their budget.   
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on March 13, 2024, 06:10:56 AM
University of New Hampshire to end 'unsustainable' English/Journalism major

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/03/13/metro/unh-englishjournalism-major-unsustainable/?s_campaign=bdc:globewell:trending&s_campaign=bdc:globewell:trending
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: permanent imposter on March 13, 2024, 07:24:40 AM
Rowan University -- what are they doing right or is this just a fluff piece? (https://www.app.com/story/news/education/2024/03/06/rowan-university-growth-multibillion-dollar-economic-impact/72866576007/) (I know this is the polar opposite of what this thread is about but I'm curious -- mods feel free to move this elsewhere.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 13, 2024, 11:13:45 AM
Quote from: permanent imposter on March 13, 2024, 07:24:40 AMRowan University -- what are they doing right or is this just a fluff piece? (https://www.app.com/story/news/education/2024/03/06/rowan-university-growth-multibillion-dollar-economic-impact/72866576007/) (I know this is the polar opposite of what this thread is about but I'm curious -- mods feel free to move this elsewhere.)

Definitely curious as to how they've managed this.  How have they attracted so much research grant money?  Has the state kicked in some significant money?  Have they maintained good standards, or are some of their programs diploma mills?

I suppose this is all relevant to the thread.  Rowan seems to have accomplished what many schools on the thread, in varying degrees and at varying scales, have tried.  How did they manage where so many others have failed?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 13, 2024, 01:44:30 PM
QuoteHow did they manage where so many others have failed?

Aggregate enrollment has been declining for 10+ years. Not many suppliers can increase enrollment in a shrinking market.  [And the demographic cliff has yet to kick in.]
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: waterboy on March 13, 2024, 03:15:45 PM
Not to be a cynic, but let's remember West Virginia ALSO thought enrollments were going to skyrocket. Look where that took them.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: lightning on March 14, 2024, 08:46:48 AM
Quote from: permanent imposter on March 13, 2024, 07:24:40 AMRowan University -- what are they doing right or is this just a fluff piece? (https://www.app.com/story/news/education/2024/03/06/rowan-university-growth-multibillion-dollar-economic-impact/72866576007/) (I know this is the polar opposite of what this thread is about but I'm curious -- mods feel free to move this elsewhere.)

It's a fluff piece, but it's a good outward-facing fluff piece for purposes of marketing for Rowan. For us on the inside of the profession, it does make us gag.

I'm a little suspicious of Rowan's historical enrollment numbers, and I'm really laughing at their enrollment projections that they will achieve through distance learning. They're too late to cash in on distance learning.

That being said, my university system, like Rowan, ramped up its research activity for ALL campuses. Like Rowan, increased research activity, large donations, non-profit sector collaborations, and private sector investment have been one of the main reasons for its viability since the Great Recession. Our enrollment has stayed steady or increased since the Great Recession and that has a lot to do with our generous financial aid packages that are partially funded by research, large donations, non-profit sector collaborations, and private sector investment. If Rowan is anything like my university, which I suspect that it is, the real secret to Rowan's success is smart and clever faculty that have to do work their asses off (more research, more collaborations, more service, more seeking out donations, and more seeking out investment from corporate overlords). And like Rowan, the administrators are taking credit for it. (These are the same administrators that roll over and take it up the ar$e from politicians in the state who continue to slash higher ed funding, while at the same time imposing internal controls that make it harder for faculty to do all the things that made the university viable.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 14, 2024, 09:08:36 AM
No, they're surely too late to grab a bigger share of the online education pie like they're hoping to do.  It looks like they've still had impressive growth in enrollment at a time when so many are losing, though.

Wonder how many troubled schools invested money in failed efforts to multiply their enrollment through online education?  I can recall hearing about several on the "Dire Straights" threads.  As with any bubble, by the time the word gets out that that's the hot thing to do, and everybody starts trying it, the moment to jump on board the bandwagon with any real hope of success has already passed.  At that point you might as well be one of those people buying into a multilevel marketing scheme.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 14, 2024, 09:19:12 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 14, 2024, 09:08:36 AMNo, they're surely too late to grab a bigger share of the online education pie like they're hoping to do.  It looks like they've still had impressive growth in enrollment at a time when so many are losing, though.

Wonder how many troubled schools invested money in failed efforts to multiply their enrollment through online education? 

And with everyplace having to go online during COVID, the bar for online education quality just got bumped up several notches. That in itself made it virtually impossible for anyone to cash in on it in a big way.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on March 14, 2024, 09:33:42 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 14, 2024, 09:19:12 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 14, 2024, 09:08:36 AMNo, they're surely too late to grab a bigger share of the online education pie like they're hoping to do.  It looks like they've still had impressive growth in enrollment at a time when so many are losing, though.

Wonder how many troubled schools invested money in failed efforts to multiply their enrollment through online education? 

And with everyplace having to go online during COVID, the bar for online education quality just got bumped up several notches. That in itself made it virtually impossible for anyone to cash in on it in a big way.

We just take a pile of international students then give them online classes because we don't have the physical space. Bingo presto, quality is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: ciao_yall on March 15, 2024, 06:45:05 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 14, 2024, 09:33:42 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 14, 2024, 09:19:12 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 14, 2024, 09:08:36 AMNo, they're surely too late to grab a bigger share of the online education pie like they're hoping to do.  It looks like they've still had impressive growth in enrollment at a time when so many are losing, though.

Wonder how many troubled schools invested money in failed efforts to multiply their enrollment through online education? 

And with everyplace having to go online during COVID, the bar for online education quality just got bumped up several notches. That in itself made it virtually impossible for anyone to cash in on it in a big way.

We just take a pile of international students then give them online classes because we don't have the physical space. Bingo presto, quality is irrelevant.

Sure, students would love to pay big bucks to move internationally, only to sit in their rooms all day doing classes and homework.

/eyeroll
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: TreadingLife on March 15, 2024, 06:59:33 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 14, 2024, 09:33:42 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 14, 2024, 09:19:12 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 14, 2024, 09:08:36 AMNo, they're surely too late to grab a bigger share of the online education pie like they're hoping to do.  It looks like they've still had impressive growth in enrollment at a time when so many are losing, though.

Wonder how many troubled schools invested money in failed efforts to multiply their enrollment through online education? 

And with everyplace having to go online during COVID, the bar for online education quality just got bumped up several notches. That in itself made it virtually impossible for anyone to cash in on it in a big way.

We just take a pile of international students then give them online classes because we don't have the physical space. Bingo presto, quality is irrelevant.

I thought there was a Visa restriction on doing this since there is no need for the international student to be in the country if they can just take classes online. Something like a limit or prohibition on the number of online classes an international student can take domestically. Anyone know more?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Parasaurolophus on March 15, 2024, 07:29:35 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 15, 2024, 06:45:05 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 14, 2024, 09:33:42 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 14, 2024, 09:19:12 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 14, 2024, 09:08:36 AMNo, they're surely too late to grab a bigger share of the online education pie like they're hoping to do.  It looks like they've still had impressive growth in enrollment at a time when so many are losing, though.

Wonder how many troubled schools invested money in failed efforts to multiply their enrollment through online education? 

And with everyplace having to go online during COVID, the bar for online education quality just got bumped up several notches. That in itself made it virtually impossible for anyone to cash in on it in a big way.

We just take a pile of international students then give them online classes because we don't have the physical space. Bingo presto, quality is irrelevant.

Sure, students would love to pay big bucks to move internationally, only to sit in their rooms all day doing classes and homework.

/eyeroll

Ours are paying for the subsequent three-year work permit and a shot at permanent residency. And they go out and work under the table and do none of the homework.

It's a pretty gross situation, and leaves them quite vulnerable and in a bad way. We're effectively a degree mill. But our enrollments are higher than ever!
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: methodsman on March 15, 2024, 12:42:06 PM
Quote from: permanent imposter on March 13, 2024, 07:24:40 AMRowan University -- what are they doing right or is this just a fluff piece? (https://www.app.com/story/news/education/2024/03/06/rowan-university-growth-multibillion-dollar-economic-impact/72866576007/) (I know this is the polar opposite of what this thread is about but I'm curious -- mods feel free to move this elsewhere.)
Rowan gobbled up a number of community colleges that were flailing.  This is one way to improve their financial position.  Rowan is really the only game in south jersey and being just outside of Philadelphia is good for many reasons. They were in the right place at the right time with the right leadership.  This was not a guaranteed success story in the making. But, the economic impact reported is highly dubious. 

mm 
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: dismalist on March 15, 2024, 01:36:58 PM
Quote from: methodsman on March 15, 2024, 12:42:06 PM
Quote from: permanent imposter on March 13, 2024, 07:24:40 AMRowan University -- what are they doing right or is this just a fluff piece? (https://www.app.com/story/news/education/2024/03/06/rowan-university-growth-multibillion-dollar-economic-impact/72866576007/) (I know this is the polar opposite of what this thread is about but I'm curious -- mods feel free to move this elsewhere.)
Rowan gobbled up a number of community colleges that were flailing.  This is one way to improve their financial position.  Rowan is really the only game in south jersey and being just outside of Philadelphia is good for many reasons. They were in the right place at the right time with the right leadership.  This was not a guaranteed success story in the making. But, the economic impact reported is highly dubious. 

mm 

That is useful!

There is nothing wrong with Mergers and Acquisitions to improve one's financial security in the education industry. However, calling the results "an increase in enrollment" is misleading, either intentionally so, or they're stupid.

What's wanted is enrollment growth compared to all the educational establishments in operation in the past that are now part of Rowan, not just compared to what was once Rowan.

Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 15, 2024, 07:04:51 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 15, 2024, 01:36:58 PMWhat's wanted is enrollment growth compared to all the educational establishments in operation in the past that are now part of Rowan, not just compared to what was once Rowan.

What I would want is a financially sound institution scaled to the current demand. I would want that because it makes for a better school to be at.

What I want in corporate annual reports is that they don't say "revenue increased by x%, driven by aquisitions" without also saying what the total revenue of the aquired  companies was. That info is usually harder to find. Also whether the aquired enterprises have a better margin than before--which is probably the most analogous to the Rowan situation.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: onehappyunicorn on March 19, 2024, 10:47:36 AM
Quote from: methodsman on March 15, 2024, 12:42:06 PM
Quote from: permanent imposter on March 13, 2024, 07:24:40 AMRowan University -- what are they doing right or is this just a fluff piece? (https://www.app.com/story/news/education/2024/03/06/rowan-university-growth-multibillion-dollar-economic-impact/72866576007/) (I know this is the polar opposite of what this thread is about but I'm curious -- mods feel free to move this elsewhere.)
Rowan gobbled up a number of community colleges that were flailing.  This is one way to improve their financial position.  Rowan is really the only game in south jersey and being just outside of Philadelphia is good for many reasons. They were in the right place at the right time with the right leadership.  This was not a guaranteed success story in the making. But, the economic impact reported is highly dubious. 

mm 
Yep, Rowan absorbed the community college that I went to, it's now "Rowan College of South Jersey". I think they also absorbed the CC over in Vineland/Millville. The next closest four year that is still in South Jersey is probably Stockton and that is about an hour from where I grew up. There are four-years that are closer in Philly and Wilmington but if you are living at home then that's a lot of traffic and tolls. I guess there is Rutgers - Camden now that I think about it...
Rowan has been growing for some time, there was a lot of tension in Glassboro when they used eminent domain to seize a bunch of land. The enrollment is probably double of what it was when I attended. There is a huge parking deck and a hotel now where a lot of housing was in downtown Glassboro.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 25, 2024, 09:16:09 AM
Saint Martin's University:

https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/education/article286897365.html (https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/education/article286897365.html)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: treeoflife on March 25, 2024, 01:58:44 PM
Norbert college will layoff more employees but increase the number of majors in the hope of attracting more students.

https://wtaq.com/2024/03/08/st-norbert-college-announces-further-layoffs-amid-ongoing-budget-issues/
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 25, 2024, 02:44:31 PM
Quote from: spork on March 25, 2024, 09:16:09 AMSaint Martin's University:

https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/education/article286897365.html (https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/education/article286897365.html)
For "academic program changes, the (faculty) handbook requires a year-long process, which is why the terminal appointment letters were sent immediately. Due to the handbook process, we do not have the luxury of waiting to make these budget-saving decisions."

I'll give the administration credit for looking at the faculty handbook before announcing plans. However, following the contract is a necessity not a luxury. Does the Benedictine order, patrons of St. Martins, have different teachings on that subject?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: Hibush on March 25, 2024, 02:48:57 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 12, 2024, 10:23:39 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 11, 2024, 09:24:06 AMSt. Norbert (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://wtaq.com/2024/03/08/st-norbert-college-announces-further-layoffs-amid-ongoing-budget-issues/&ved=2ahUKEwiQ4cuCz-yEAxVmIzQIHduLAT8QFnoECCIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2itVq-Ad11UBYtt3T34kNF) is now cutting all assistant professors in the humanities (apart from theology), and ending healthcare coverage for emeritus faculty over 65.

I didn't see from the article you linked where it says that they were eliminating most of their liberal arts positions.  Though it would hardly be surprising if that's who they're getting rid of.  But they're starting more sports teams to attract those who want to go to college to play sports, and they're breaking ground for an expanded business school, to compete with all the hundreds and hundreds of other business schools around the country.  All they need now is a new e-sports program, and a pharmacy school if they don't already have one.

Well put. They need you to join their Board of Trustees so you can offer this accurate analysis where it counts! They may have consulted GenAI to come up with their plan, which used the model used by the 20 most recently failed schools as the template.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 26, 2024, 07:25:15 AM
Quote from: treeoflife on March 25, 2024, 01:58:44 PMNorbert college will layoff more employees but increase the number of majors in the hope of attracting more students.

https://wtaq.com/2024/03/08/st-norbert-college-announces-further-layoffs-amid-ongoing-budget-issues/

So...they've found majors they can add that don't require anybody to teach them?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: treeoflife on March 26, 2024, 08:02:07 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 26, 2024, 07:25:15 AM
Quote from: treeoflife on March 25, 2024, 01:58:44 PMNorbert college will layoff more employees but increase the number of majors in the hope of attracting more students.

https://wtaq.com/2024/03/08/st-norbert-college-announces-further-layoffs-amid-ongoing-budget-issues/

So...they've found majors they can add that don't require anybody to teach them?

Perhaps AI professors? outsourcing online courses from for profit online universities?
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 26, 2024, 10:26:35 AM
Quote from: treeoflife on March 26, 2024, 08:02:07 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 26, 2024, 07:25:15 AM
Quote from: treeoflife on March 25, 2024, 01:58:44 PMNorbert college will layoff more employees but increase the number of majors in the hope of attracting more students.

https://wtaq.com/2024/03/08/st-norbert-college-announces-further-layoffs-amid-ongoing-budget-issues/

So...they've found majors they can add that don't require anybody to teach them?

Perhaps AI professors? outsourcing online courses from for profit online universities?

What's sad here is that you were actually able to come up with plausible answers for my question there....
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: marshwiggle on March 26, 2024, 10:44:31 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 26, 2024, 10:26:35 AM
Quote from: treeoflife on March 26, 2024, 08:02:07 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 26, 2024, 07:25:15 AM
Quote from: treeoflife on March 25, 2024, 01:58:44 PMNorbert college will layoff more employees but increase the number of majors in the hope of attracting more students.

https://wtaq.com/2024/03/08/st-norbert-college-announces-further-layoffs-amid-ongoing-budget-issues/

So...they've found majors they can add that don't require anybody to teach them?

Perhaps AI professors? outsourcing online courses from for profit online universities?

What's sad here is that you were actually able to come up with plausible answers for my question there....

One other option is inter-disciplinary programs that combine existing courses from other disciplines, so no new faculty are required and, in principle, it will produce larger class sizes than currently exist. (That assumes that these don't cannibalize existing programs for students.)
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: selecter on March 26, 2024, 01:15:46 PM
Birmingham-Southern.

https://www.al.com/educationlab/2024/03/birmingham-southern-college-will-close-may-31-as-loan-bill-fails-to-gain-support.html
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 27, 2024, 05:11:36 AM
Bluffton University will "merge" with University of Findlay.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: treeoflife on March 27, 2024, 11:26:17 AM
Quote from: selecter on March 26, 2024, 01:15:46 PMBirmingham-Southern.

https://www.al.com/educationlab/2024/03/birmingham-southern-college-will-close-may-31-as-loan-bill-fails-to-gain-support.html

I hoped they will survive. Another HBCU closes.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 27, 2024, 12:43:24 PM
Quote from: spork on March 27, 2024, 05:11:36 AMBluffton University will "merge" with University of Findlay.

I saw a news story where Bluffton's administration swore it had nothing to do with financial problems, but was about "getting ahead of the demographic cliff."  So perhaps more a matter of trying to head off fiscal trouble that they can see coming as a result of continuing projected declines in the number of students to recruit from.  It would suggest more foresight than many troubled schools have shown in recent years.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: spork on March 27, 2024, 01:25:25 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 27, 2024, 12:43:24 PM
Quote from: spork on March 27, 2024, 05:11:36 AMBluffton University will "merge" with University of Findlay.

I saw a news story where Bluffton's administration swore it had nothing to do with financial problems, but was about "getting ahead of the demographic cliff."  So perhaps more a matter of trying to head off fiscal trouble that they can see coming as a result of continuing projected declines in the number of students to recruit from.  It would suggest more foresight than many troubled schools have shown in recent years.

Bluffton doesn't have enough students to pay its bills. It was running deficits before it started getting pandemic aid, which has stopped.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: apl68 on March 27, 2024, 02:10:20 PM
Quote from: spork on March 27, 2024, 01:25:25 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 27, 2024, 12:43:24 PM
Quote from: spork on March 27, 2024, 05:11:36 AMBluffton University will "merge" with University of Findlay.

I saw a news story where Bluffton's administration swore it had nothing to do with financial problems, but was about "getting ahead of the demographic cliff."  So perhaps more a matter of trying to head off fiscal trouble that they can see coming as a result of continuing projected declines in the number of students to recruit from.  It would suggest more foresight than many troubled schools have shown in recent years.

Bluffton doesn't have enough students to pay its bills. It was running deficits before it started getting pandemic aid, which has stopped.

Okay, did not see that context in any of the articles I skimmed in my brief check of the recent Bluffton news.  Guess they're being more reactive than proactive, then.
Title: Re: Colleges in Dire Financial Straits
Post by: aprof on March 27, 2024, 02:30:43 PM
Quote from: spork on March 27, 2024, 01:25:25 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 27, 2024, 12:43:24 PM
Quote from: spork on March 27, 2024, 05:11:36 AMBluffton University will "merge" with University of Findlay.

I saw a news story where Bluffton's administration swore it had nothing to do with financial problems, but was about "getting ahead of the demographic cliff."  So perhaps more a matter of trying to head off fiscal trouble that they can see coming as a result of continuing projected declines in the number of students to recruit from.  It would suggest more foresight than many troubled schools have shown in recent years.

Bluffton doesn't have enough students to pay its bills. It was running deficits before it started getting pandemic aid, which has stopped.
96% acceptance rate, 54% graduation rate according to Google.  That is...not good.  Difficult to adjust to declines in applications when you are already accepting every warm body that applies.