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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Wahoo Redux on July 24, 2020, 10:20:09 AM

Title: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 24, 2020, 10:20:09 AM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/professor-behind-vile-racist-sexist-tweets-found-dead-north-carolina-n1234801
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Parasaurolophus on July 24, 2020, 11:58:37 AM
Quote[Sheriff's Lt. Jerry Brewer] declined to elaborate on a potential cause of death, but said there was no immediate evidence of foul play. Adams, 55, lived alone.

QuoteAmong the professor's recent statements was his comparing the efforts of North Carolina Gov. Roy Cooper to curb coronavirus to that of a slave master, tweeting on May 29: "This evening I ate pizza and drank beer with six guys at a six seat table top. I almost felt like a free man who was not living in the slave state of North Carolina. Massa Cooper, let my people go!"

Earlier this year, Adams mocked women's studies as "non essential" and labeled civil rights protesters "thugs."

Back in 2016, Adams used an ultraconservative opinion site to target a student at his school with an article titled "A Queer Muslim Jihad."

In 2013, he said gay couples should not receive equal treatment "because they do not equally benefit society."
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 24, 2020, 12:06:12 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 24, 2020, 11:58:37 AM
Quote[Sheriff's Lt. Jerry Brewer] declined to elaborate on a potential cause of death, but said there was no immediate evidence of foul play. Adams, 55, lived alone.

QuoteAmong the professor's recent statements was his comparing the efforts of North Carolina Gov. Roy Cooper to curb coronavirus to that of a slave master, tweeting on May 29: "This evening I ate pizza and drank beer with six guys at a six seat table top. I almost felt like a free man who was not living in the slave state of North Carolina. Massa Cooper, let my people go!"

Earlier this year, Adams mocked women's studies as "non essential" and labeled civil rights protesters "thugs."

Back in 2016, Adams used an ultraconservative opinion site to target a student at his school with an article titled "A Queer Muslim Jihad."

In 2013, he said gay couples should not receive equal treatment "because they do not equally benefit society."

So he deserved to die? Hate speech! WAAAAAAH!!!
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Parasaurolophus on July 24, 2020, 12:11:02 PM
No. I am pointing out (1) there is no evidence he was murdered, which I initially took to be the implication from the title, (2) that there's a pretty reasonable explanation available for the death, and (3) I quoted the article's description of some of the kinds of things he's said.

That is all. Given those givens, it's hard to see what the point of "discussing" this is.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 01:03:02 PM
Obviously those of us on the right hope he was killed by leftist cancelers.  Those on the left hope he was killed by Christians--or, better still, that he killed himself in a fit of remorse. 

Discuss.

Modifying to add: Women's Studies is indeed nonessential.  We lived without that field of academic inquiry for almost all of human history.  Please don't kill me for agreeing with this guy.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mamselle on July 24, 2020, 01:05:50 PM
I agree with Parasaurolophus, the original reportage was confusing, and it's still not clear what the cause of death was, or if something nefarious was being implied or not.

Until there's a clearer hermeneutic, there's not point to trying to parse the event, except on its own terms.

Someone has died. RIP.

M. 
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: ciao_yall on July 24, 2020, 02:48:26 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 01:03:02 PM
Obviously those of us on the right hope he was killed by leftist cancelers.  Those on the left hope he was killed by Christians--or, better still, that he killed himself in a fit of remorse. 

Discuss.

Modifying to add: Women's Studies is indeed nonessential.  We lived without that field of academic inquiry for almost all of human history.  Please don't kill me for agreeing with this guy.

Yeah, cuz who needs half of humanity?
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: marshwiggle on July 24, 2020, 03:32:40 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on July 24, 2020, 02:48:26 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 01:03:02 PM
Obviously those of us on the right hope he was killed by leftist cancelers.  Those on the left hope he was killed by Christians--or, better still, that he killed himself in a fit of remorse. 

Discuss.

Modifying to add: Women's Studies is indeed nonessential.  We lived without that field of academic inquiry for almost all of human history.  Please don't kill me for agreeing with this guy.

Yeah, cuz who needs half of humanity?

Are all of the other fields of inquiry for men only, or should there be Men's Studies as well, since there are two halves of humanity?
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 24, 2020, 03:56:34 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 24, 2020, 03:32:40 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on July 24, 2020, 02:48:26 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 01:03:02 PM
Obviously those of us on the right hope he was killed by leftist cancelers.  Those on the left hope he was killed by Christians--or, better still, that he killed himself in a fit of remorse. 

Discuss.

Modifying to add: Women's Studies is indeed nonessential.  We lived without that field of academic inquiry for almost all of human history.  Please don't kill me for agreeing with this guy.

Yeah, cuz who needs half of humanity?

Are all of the other fields of inquiry for men only, or should there be Men's Studies as well, since there are two halves of humanity?

Well, given all that we've been learning recently, are there people maintaining that Women's Studies promotes an incorrect dichotomous view of gender?
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 24, 2020, 04:03:19 PM
We had a professor die last year in the middle of the semester.  I don't think it even made the local news.

I'm pretty sure a number of big-mouth racists died recently (even though I don't know any myself).

But I thought it was interesting that combining "professor" + "racist" + "death" = NBC headline.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Caracal on July 24, 2020, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 01:03:02 PM

Modifying to add: Women's Studies is indeed nonessential.  We lived without that field of academic inquiry for almost all of human history. 

True enough. (The first women's history departments were in the early 1970s) but the same is true for sociology (1890s), computer science (1950s), and Religious Studies (late 19th century) and lots of other fields you probably aren't grumbling about.

Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Parasaurolophus on July 24, 2020, 04:36:07 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 24, 2020, 03:32:40 PM

Are all of the other fields of inquiry for men only, or should there be Men's Studies as well, since there are two halves of humanity?

Men's studies has existed in the academy since the 1970s. It's not very widespread, however, and it's got nothing to do with MRAs. In fact, it's much more closely aligned with women's and gender studies (and, really, I don't see why it should exist separately from that department, but nobody died and made me king of the academy. Also, it's often part of that department, or sometimes another).
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Caracal on July 24, 2020, 04:42:59 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 24, 2020, 03:56:34 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 24, 2020, 03:32:40 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on July 24, 2020, 02:48:26 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 01:03:02 PM
Obviously those of us on the right hope he was killed by leftist cancelers.  Those on the left hope he was killed by Christians--or, better still, that he killed himself in a fit of remorse. 

Discuss.

Modifying to add: Women's Studies is indeed nonessential.  We lived without that field of academic inquiry for almost all of human history.  Please don't kill me for agreeing with this guy.

Yeah, cuz who needs half of humanity?

Are all of the other fields of inquiry for men only, or should there be Men's Studies as well, since there are two halves of humanity?

Well, given all that we've been learning recently, are there people maintaining that Women's Studies promotes an incorrect dichotomous view of gender?

Yes. I don't know enough about women's studies as a field to comment, but in history, there aren't many younger historians who describe themselves as doing "women's history." Gender history is much more common.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Caracal on July 24, 2020, 04:44:28 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 24, 2020, 04:36:07 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 24, 2020, 03:32:40 PM

Are all of the other fields of inquiry for men only, or should there be Men's Studies as well, since there are two halves of humanity?

Men's studies has existed in the academy since the 1970s. It's not very widespread, however, and it's got nothing to do with MRAs. In fact, it's much more closely aligned with women's and gender studies (and, really, I don't see why it should exist separately from that department, but nobody died and made me king of the academy. Also, it's often part of that department, or sometimes another).

Lots of gender history over the last twenty years has focused on masculinity and male identity.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 04:46:23 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 24, 2020, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 01:03:02 PM

Modifying to add: Women's Studies is indeed nonessential.  We lived without that field of academic inquiry for almost all of human history. 

True enough. (The first women's history departments were in the early 1970s) but the same is true for sociology (1890s), computer science (1950s), and Religious Studies (late 19th century) and lots of other fields you probably aren't grumbling about.

How little you know me.  Sociology?  Marxist hokum.  Computer science?  All the smart kids drop out before graduation.  Religious Studies?  A swamp of heresies, in multiple flavors.  Give me some more fields; I can go on.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Caracal on July 24, 2020, 04:49:07 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 04:46:23 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 24, 2020, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 01:03:02 PM

Modifying to add: Women's Studies is indeed nonessential.  We lived without that field of academic inquiry for almost all of human history. 

True enough. (The first women's history departments were in the early 1970s) but the same is true for sociology (1890s), computer science (1950s), and Religious Studies (late 19th century) and lots of other fields you probably aren't grumbling about.

How little you know me.  Sociology?  Marxist hokum.  Computer science?  All the smart kids drop out before graduation.  Religious Studies?  A swamp of heresies, in multiple flavors.  Give me some more fields; I can go on.

Yes, personally I'd like to see colleges stop teaching all this practical stuff like math, science, history and the like and focus on recitations of Latin and Greek just like things were in the good old 1840s.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 24, 2020, 05:33:30 PM
Wow, this is new? Rate my racist professor website. I know one African American prof. at our school who deserves to be on it.

https://ratemyracistprofessor.com/professors/anti-immigrant/mike-adams/

The things I read about Adams didn't make me like him. But he's an outlier. Where's his coalition? Maybe he was just a shooting-from-the-hip loner. He's not the most dangerous, toxic thing in higher ed today.

Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Parasaurolophus on July 24, 2020, 06:48:04 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 24, 2020, 05:33:30 PM

The things I read about Adams didn't make me like him. But he's an outlier. Where's his coalition?

What do you mean?
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 24, 2020, 09:49:29 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 24, 2020, 06:48:04 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 24, 2020, 05:33:30 PM

The things I read about Adams didn't make me like him. But he's an outlier. Where's his coalition?

What do you mean?

You can't be that much of a menace when you're swimming against the tide. They shut him down.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Parasaurolophus on July 24, 2020, 09:51:31 PM
I see.

Well. They shut him down, then he won a half-million dollar lawsuit against them for shutting him down, which sends a pretty clear signal against shutting down.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 24, 2020, 10:56:21 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 24, 2020, 09:51:31 PM
I see.

Well. They shut him down, then he won a half-million dollar lawsuit against them for shutting him down, which sends a pretty clear signal against shutting down.

Well, if you want to make it easier to fire tenured people without a big expense, I won't interfere. Come to think of it, you could take all of the adjuncts in the USA, organize them, and they still wouldn't be able to so much as put a speck of dust on tenure's white hat.

BTW, does his estate get the buyout money? But not the pension too?
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Parasaurolophus on July 25, 2020, 07:11:07 AM
Dunno. It was predicated on his retiring August 1, which he obviously won't.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: apl68 on July 25, 2020, 10:25:37 AM
I wonder who would be in control of his estate?  He died all alone.  Haven't yet heard anything about family.  One gets the impression he wasn't close to anybody.  Which would not be surprising, his personality being what it seems to have been.  It's a sad thing to have to say about anybody.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: secundem_artem on July 25, 2020, 01:06:18 PM
Apparently cause of death was a gunshot wound.

https://portcitydaily.com/local-news/2020/07/24/911-records-mike-adams-suffered-gunshot-wound-had-reportedly-been-erratic-and-stressed/

Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 25, 2020, 01:21:45 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 01:03:02 PM
Modifying to add: Women's Studies is indeed nonessential.  We lived without that field of academic inquiry for almost all of human history.  Please don't kill me for agreeing with this guy.

Almost all our fields of academic inquiry are new to human history. 
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: writingprof on July 25, 2020, 02:11:45 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 25, 2020, 01:21:45 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 01:03:02 PM
Modifying to add: Women's Studies is indeed nonessential.  We lived without that field of academic inquiry for almost all of human history.  Please don't kill me for agreeing with this guy.

Almost all our fields of academic inquiry are new to human history.

Engineering and agriculture are pretty old.  The rest: nonessential.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: dismalist on July 25, 2020, 02:15:05 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 25, 2020, 02:11:45 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 25, 2020, 01:21:45 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 01:03:02 PM
Modifying to add: Women's Studies is indeed nonessential.  We lived without that field of academic inquiry for almost all of human history.  Please don't kill me for agreeing with this guy.

Almost all our fields of academic inquiry are new to human history.

Engineering and agriculture are pretty old.  The rest: nonessential.

Most new knowledge is wrong! :-)
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 25, 2020, 02:49:51 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 25, 2020, 02:11:45 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 25, 2020, 01:21:45 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 01:03:02 PM
Modifying to add: Women's Studies is indeed nonessential.  We lived without that field of academic inquiry for almost all of human history.  Please don't kill me for agreeing with this guy.

Almost all our fields of academic inquiry are new to human history.

Engineering and agriculture are pretty old.  The rest: nonessential.

Agreed.  But that does not change the fact that the majority of any given subject matter is very, very new.

The modern university is actually only, what, 200 years old?

In fact, complaints that any given subject is---in one way, shape, or form---"too new" means that there are no real complaints here, simply confabulated complaints.

And given that agriculture is only 12K years old and human fossils go back 200K to the Middle Paleolithic, agriculture and engineering are actually quite "new." 

But I'll follow you WP, let's be hunter / gatherers.  Smart that.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: writingprof on July 25, 2020, 05:16:06 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 25, 2020, 02:49:51 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 25, 2020, 02:11:45 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 25, 2020, 01:21:45 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 01:03:02 PM
Modifying to add: Women's Studies is indeed nonessential.  We lived without that field of academic inquiry for almost all of human history.  Please don't kill me for agreeing with this guy.

Almost all our fields of academic inquiry are new to human history.

Engineering and agriculture are pretty old.  The rest: nonessential.

Agreed.  But that does not change the fact that the majority of any given subject matter is very, very new.

The modern university is actually only, what, 200 years old?

In fact, complaints that any given subject is---in one way, shape, or form---"too new" means that there are no real complaints here, simply confabulated complaints.

And given that agriculture is only 12K years old and human fossils go back 200K to the Middle Paleolithic, agriculture and engineering are actually quite "new." 

But I'll follow you WP, let's be hunter / gatherers.  Smart that.

I'm just trying to reduce my carbon footprint.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 25, 2020, 06:32:03 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 25, 2020, 05:16:06 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 25, 2020, 02:49:51 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 25, 2020, 02:11:45 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 25, 2020, 01:21:45 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 01:03:02 PM
Modifying to add: Women's Studies is indeed nonessential.  We lived without that field of academic inquiry for almost all of human history.  Please don't kill me for agreeing with this guy.

Almost all our fields of academic inquiry are new to human history.

Engineering and agriculture are pretty old.  The rest: nonessential.

Agreed.  But that does not change the fact that the majority of any given subject matter is very, very new.

The modern university is actually only, what, 200 years old?

In fact, complaints that any given subject is---in one way, shape, or form---"too new" means that there are no real complaints here, simply confabulated complaints.

And given that agriculture is only 12K years old and human fossils go back 200K to the Middle Paleolithic, agriculture and engineering are actually quite "new." 

But I'll follow you WP, let's be hunter / gatherers.  Smart that.

I'm just trying to reduce my carbon footprint.

Ah, I see how that would naturally follow from denigrating women's studies.  The denigration of knowledge, however, is an emission (https://kidshealth.org/en/kids/fart.html#:~:text=All%20of%20these%20gases%20in,to%20give%20gas%20its%20smell.) too many of us are familiar with.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: nebo113 on July 26, 2020, 05:05:11 AM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 04:46:23 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 24, 2020, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 01:03:02 PM

Modifying to add: Women's Studies is indeed nonessential.  We lived without that field of academic inquiry for almost all of human history. 

True enough. (The first women's history departments were in the early 1970s) but the same is true for sociology (1890s), computer science (1950s), and Religious Studies (late 19th century) and lots of other fields you probably aren't grumbling about.

How little you know me.  Sociology?  Marxist hokum.  Computer science?  All the smart kids drop out before graduation.  Religious Studies?  A swamp of heresies, in multiple flavors.  Give me some more fields; I can go on.

Please don't.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: nebo113 on July 26, 2020, 05:06:40 AM
Quote from: dismalist on July 25, 2020, 02:15:05 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 25, 2020, 02:11:45 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 25, 2020, 01:21:45 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 01:03:02 PM
Modifying to add: Women's Studies is indeed nonessential.  We lived without that field of academic inquiry for almost all of human history.  Please don't kill me for agreeing with this guy.

Almost all our fields of academic inquiry are new to human history.

Oh my goodness.  Now you're just being a silly troll.

Engineering and agriculture are pretty old.  The rest: nonessential.

Most new knowledge is wrong! :-)
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: writingprof on July 26, 2020, 06:04:23 AM
All right, the minor moral panic on this thread can now cease.  I was only defending the assertion of the murdered professor that Women's Studies is "nonessential."  That doesn't (necessarily) mean that I (or he) think it worthless. 
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Parasaurolophus on July 26, 2020, 08:01:33 AM
He wasn't murdered.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 26, 2020, 09:03:15 AM
Quote from: writingprof on July 26, 2020, 06:04:23 AM
All right, the minor moral panic on this thread can now cease.  I was only defending the assertion of the murdered professor that Women's Studies is "nonessential."  That doesn't (necessarily) mean that I (or he) think it worthless.

I think it is more "disdain for adolescent attitude" than "minor moral panic" on this thread.  I see no moral panic whatsoever, actually.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: writingprof on July 26, 2020, 09:06:58 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 26, 2020, 08:01:33 AM
He wasn't murdered.

He wasn't?  Admittedly, I haven't been reading very closely, but what is the point of this thread if he died of natural causes?  I look forward to the sequels: "'Racist' Professor Dies in Nursing Home", "'Homophobic' Professor Dies in Plane Crash", and "'Sexist' Professor Dies in Amusement Park Accident".
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: RatGuy on July 26, 2020, 09:54:04 AM
Quote from: writingprof on July 26, 2020, 09:06:58 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 26, 2020, 08:01:33 AM
He wasn't murdered.

He wasn't?  Admittedly, I haven't been reading very closely, but what is the point of this thread if he died of natural causes?  I look forward to the sequels: "'Racist' Professor Dies in Nursing Home", "'Homophobic' Professor Dies in Plane Crash", and "'Sexist' Professor Dies in Amusement Park Accident".

Died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Parasaurolophus on July 26, 2020, 10:25:46 AM
Quote from: writingprof on July 26, 2020, 09:06:58 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 26, 2020, 08:01:33 AM
He wasn't murdered.

He wasn't?  Admittedly, I haven't been reading very closely, but what is the point of this thread if he died of natural causes?  I look forward to the sequels: "'Racist' Professor Dies in Nursing Home", "'Homophobic' Professor Dies in Plane Crash", and "'Sexist' Professor Dies in Amusement Park Accident".

Quote from: RatGuy on July 26, 2020, 09:54:04 AM

Died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound.


Yup.

There isn't really any point to the thread, or the original story. It's masquerading as something else, for reasons.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: marshwiggle on July 26, 2020, 10:41:03 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 26, 2020, 10:25:46 AM
Quote from: writingprof on July 26, 2020, 09:06:58 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 26, 2020, 08:01:33 AM
He wasn't murdered.

He wasn't?  Admittedly, I haven't been reading very closely, but what is the point of this thread if he died of natural causes?  I look forward to the sequels: "'Racist' Professor Dies in Nursing Home", "'Homophobic' Professor Dies in Plane Crash", and "'Sexist' Professor Dies in Amusement Park Accident".

Quote from: RatGuy on July 26, 2020, 09:54:04 AM

Died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound.


Yup.

There isn't really any point to the thread, or the original story. It's masquerading as something else, for reasons.

If it were a professor from some marginalized group, it would probably be presented as being due to bullying or bigotry.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: writingprof on July 26, 2020, 12:41:26 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 26, 2020, 10:41:03 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 26, 2020, 10:25:46 AM
Quote from: writingprof on July 26, 2020, 09:06:58 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 26, 2020, 08:01:33 AM
He wasn't murdered.

He wasn't?  Admittedly, I haven't been reading very closely, but what is the point of this thread if he died of natural causes?  I look forward to the sequels: "'Racist' Professor Dies in Nursing Home", "'Homophobic' Professor Dies in Plane Crash", and "'Sexist' Professor Dies in Amusement Park Accident".

Quote from: RatGuy on July 26, 2020, 09:54:04 AM

Died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound.


Yup.

There isn't really any point to the thread, or the original story. It's masquerading as something else, for reasons.

If it were a professor from some marginalized group, it would probably be presented as being due to bullying or bigotry.

If he actually was a racist, he was a member of a marginalized group.  If he was just a "racist," he's smack dab in the middle of the American mainstream.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 26, 2020, 12:47:29 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 26, 2020, 10:25:46 AM
Quote from: writingprof on July 26, 2020, 09:06:58 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 26, 2020, 08:01:33 AM
He wasn't murdered.

He wasn't?  Admittedly, I haven't been reading very closely, but what is the point of this thread if he died of natural causes?  I look forward to the sequels: "'Racist' Professor Dies in Nursing Home", "'Homophobic' Professor Dies in Plane Crash", and "'Sexist' Professor Dies in Amusement Park Accident".

Quote from: RatGuy on July 26, 2020, 09:54:04 AM

Died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound.


Yup.

There isn't really any point to the thread, or the original story. It's masquerading as something else, for reasons.

What I found interesting is the cultural position of the "professor."  Suicide and racism are not particularly unusual, but when it is a professor (and not even a prominent scholar) it is somehow newsworthy.

Folks decided to debate the curriculum instead.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: writingprof on July 26, 2020, 03:20:00 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 26, 2020, 12:47:29 PM
What I found interesting is the cultural position of the "professor."  Suicide and racism are not particularly unusual, but when it is a professor (and not even a prominent scholar) it is somehow newsworthy.

If we're not going to be paid as if we matter, at least let us enjoy the occasional ministrations of a news crew, even in death.  When I commit suicide* one day, I expect no less.

*read: am murdered by my ideological opponents
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 26, 2020, 06:32:59 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 26, 2020, 10:25:46 AM
Quote from: writingprof on July 26, 2020, 09:06:58 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 26, 2020, 08:01:33 AM
He wasn't murdered.

He wasn't?  Admittedly, I haven't been reading very closely, but what is the point of this thread if he died of natural causes?  I look forward to the sequels: "'Racist' Professor Dies in Nursing Home", "'Homophobic' Professor Dies in Plane Crash", and "'Sexist' Professor Dies in Amusement Park Accident".

Quote from: RatGuy on July 26, 2020, 09:54:04 AM

Died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound.


Yup.

There isn't really any point to the thread, or the original story. It's masquerading as something else, for reasons.
Sure, there could be. Questions that occur to me: do people see tenure as an opportunity to express their more serious thoughts if they calculate that this particular time it makes sense to, or do they see tenure as an obligation to be never be less than totally candid about them? Isn't that a burden?  Or is it less serious: they calculate that they can cultivate enough opposition to bring themselves down, then exploit the protections of tenure for a nice buyout contract, retire early, but then find out when it's all done, they don't feel the way they expected to?
Or a question about all of us, tenured or not: many seem to be enjoying arguing about politics, LGBTQRSTUVXYZ issues, etc. and ridiculing those who disagree with them, and have a flair for it, but how is it not stressful activity that takes its toll eventually?

QuoteWhat I found interesting is the cultural position of the "professor."  Suicide and racism are not particularly unusual, but when it is a professor (and not even a prominent scholar) it is somehow newsworthy.

Well, aside from the voyeurism found in human beings generally, don't you think his death is welcome news for some? He may have been run out of academia, but could have gone on publishing.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 26, 2020, 07:26:52 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 26, 2020, 06:32:59 PM

QuoteWhat I found interesting is the cultural position of the "professor."  Suicide and racism are not particularly unusual, but when it is a professor (and not even a prominent scholar) it is somehow newsworthy.

Well, aside from the voyeurism found in human beings generally, don't you think his death is welcome news for some? He may have been run out of academia, but could have gone on publishing.

Somebody is happy, I am sure.  He was a hatemonger, he got hate back, and he will undoubtedly get hate in the afterlife until this particular cultural moment has faded.

Obviously he was mentally ill---and I would think that anyone who follows his chains of thought would reconsider their allegiance to his ideas with this context in mind.

But again, why would this generate more than local interest?  I'm sure Conservapedia will cover it on their "professor crimes" page, otherwise why would anyone particularly care?
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 26, 2020, 08:09:59 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 26, 2020, 07:26:52 PM

Obviously he was mentally ill---and I would think that anyone who follows his chains of thought would reconsider their allegiance to his ideas with this context in mind.


You mean you think they should. But that's not a settled issue. Anyone can opine about which disciplines are essential and which are not, especially in the current environment. A person who you are certain is mentally ill could still be saying something valid.

If you could delete the lives of all mentally ill scholars, inventors and artists from history, would we have less knowledge than we have now? I suspect so.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 26, 2020, 08:51:23 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 26, 2020, 08:09:59 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 26, 2020, 07:26:52 PM

Obviously he was mentally ill---and I would think that anyone who follows his chains of thought would reconsider their allegiance to his ideas with this context in mind.


You mean you think they should. But that's not a settled issue. Anyone can opine about which disciplines are essential and which are not, especially in the current environment. A person who you are certain is mentally ill could still be saying something valid.

If you could delete the lives of all mentally ill scholars, inventors and artists from history, would we have less knowledge than we have now? I suspect so.

And we could acknowledge that bias frequently is the product of a diseased mind, even when come from behind the Wizard-of-Oz-style curtain. 
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: ergative on July 27, 2020, 12:59:36 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 26, 2020, 08:09:59 PM

If you could delete the lives of all mentally ill scholars, inventors and artists from history, would we have less knowledge than we have now? I suspect so.

This sort of reasoning is often used in discussions about whether we should cut scholars/researchers some slack for behaving in ways that depart from mainstream accepted codes of conduct. To some extent, I'm quite sympathetic to it: mental illness should not be a cause for being ostracized from society. But on the other hand, that would be true even if the mentally ill person had nothing 'of value' to contribute, and just wanted to live their lives.

What about people who do have something of value---more knowledge, more art, scientific discoveries, or whatever? Should they be treated with more leniency when they misstep? (I'll assume for the sake of this argument that it is a straightforward matter to determine an amount of contribution that is sufficiently above average to justify additional leniency.)

As I see it, there are two arguments against extra leniency. The first is that I'm not sure that any one individual's contribution is irreplaceable. Leibniz and Newton both discovered calculus independently. The Europeans and the Chinese both figured out how to use the printing press and gunpowder independently. I suspect that a lot of the same technological advances would have happened sooner or later, even if the person who (in this timeline) first discovered them never existed.

But what if such an advance was not replaceable, was truly tied to one individual person? Would the leniency be justified then? I would argue still no. Geniuses who behave abominably (whether because of mental illness or not) have two effects on society---their positive contributions, but also their adverse effects on other people. By allowing them to exist, we tacitly accept their ability to interfere with the development and contributions of all the people they hurt. Oh, no, this brilliant sexist racist biologist was working on a cancer cure when he was canceled! What a tragedy! Well, what about all those potential students who might have studied and worked in his lab, who instead left the field because of his harrassment? Sure, not all of them were destined to be geniuses, but that's still a lot of talent that he drove away, which means that the talent pool which remained was artificially restricted. If he were 'deleted' from history, what contributions might these people have made? Maybe one of them would have surpassed whatever he did that is treated as justification for leniency.

So, in the balance, I am very skeptical of arguments that say contributions to society are a justification for putting up with bad behavior. Even if it was easy to balance the hurt and pain caused by the behavior against the value of the contributions (and I'm very skeptical of that), you can simply never know that this contribution you're using as justification outweighs the other contributions that the behavior made impossible.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: marshwiggle on July 27, 2020, 05:36:51 AM
Quote from: ergative on July 27, 2020, 12:59:36 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 26, 2020, 08:09:59 PM

If you could delete the lives of all mentally ill scholars, inventors and artists from history, would we have less knowledge than we have now? I suspect so.

This sort of reasoning is often used in discussions about whether we should cut scholars/researchers some slack for behaving in ways that depart from mainstream accepted codes of conduct. To some extent, I'm quite sympathetic to it: mental illness should not be a cause for being ostracized from society. But on the other hand, that would be true even if the mentally ill person had nothing 'of value' to contribute, and just wanted to live their lives.

What about people who do have something of value---more knowledge, more art, scientific discoveries, or whatever? Should they be treated with more leniency when they misstep?

To me the bigger issue is that what counts as a "misstep" is contantly changing, so something which is considered merely rude one day is considered shocking the next, and vice versa.

Who wants to live their lives thinking that their entire legacy is going to be determined by a single aspect (whatever that might be) of their personality or a single statement or action? Eventually, everyone will be "cancelled" retroactively, if not during their own lifetime.

Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 27, 2020, 07:15:10 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 27, 2020, 05:36:51 AM
Quote from: ergative on July 27, 2020, 12:59:36 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 26, 2020, 08:09:59 PM

If you could delete the lives of all mentally ill scholars, inventors and artists from history, would we have less knowledge than we have now? I suspect so.

This sort of reasoning is often used in discussions about whether we should cut scholars/researchers some slack for behaving in ways that depart from mainstream accepted codes of conduct. To some extent, I'm quite sympathetic to it: mental illness should not be a cause for being ostracized from society. But on the other hand, that would be true even if the mentally ill person had nothing 'of value' to contribute, and just wanted to live their lives.

What about people who do have something of value---more knowledge, more art, scientific discoveries, or whatever? Should they be treated with more leniency when they misstep?

To me the bigger issue is that what counts as a "misstep" is contantly changing, so something which is considered merely rude one day is considered shocking the next, and vice versa.

Who wants to live their lives thinking that their entire legacy is going to be determined by a single aspect (whatever that might be) of their personality or a single statement or action? Eventually, everyone will be "cancelled" retroactively, if not during their own lifetime.

His inflammatory statements and publications go back many years. From what little I've read, he was ultra conservative and pointedly against moving with the times. If you're old enough to remember anita bryant's campaign against gayness, she bombed, but no where near as spectacularly or quickly as she would have today. Things do indeed change dramatically.
If his opinions pointed to chronic  mental illness  we should find evidence of people trying to get him treatment.
^ Interesting (ergative)
on edit: apropos of what Marshwiggle says about rapidly changing culture: who remembers this? What gets you fired, mental illness, provocative views, or just bad timing? Lisa Durden would not have been terminated today. A mere three years ago, but it could even have been three months. https://people.com/human-interest/college-professor-fired-following-fox-news-appearance-lisa-durden/
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Puget on July 27, 2020, 07:44:48 AM
Let's not stigmatize mental illness by blaming it for this guy's abhorrent beliefs and behaviors, which were not a recent "missteps" but long-held and deliberate.

"The left" didn't kill this guy-- early retirement with a big payout was hardly going to ruin his life. There's no reason to think he was ashamed, far from it.  There are many contributors to risk fo suicide-- depression, substance use, anger. We don't know what was going on for him. We do know for certain that having a gun in the house is a major risk factor-- access to a gun triples the risk of a suicide death. Middle aged white men who own guns and live alone have some of the highest suicide rates. He had some (unknowable by us) problems, he had a gun, and he lived alone. He was  a sadly common statistic-- I don't think we should be trying to draw any meaning beyond that.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: tuxthepenguin on July 27, 2020, 08:02:47 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 27, 2020, 07:44:48 AM
Let's not stigmatize mental illness by blaming it for this guy's abhorrent beliefs and behaviors, which were not a recent "missteps" but long-held and deliberate.

"The left" didn't kill this guy-- early retirement with a big payout was hardly going to ruin his life. There's no reason to think he was ashamed, far from it.  There are many contributors to risk fo suicide-- depression, substance use, anger. We don't know what was going on for him. We do know for certain that having a gun in the house is a major risk factor-- access to a gun triples the risk of a suicide death. Middle aged white men who own guns and live alone have some of the highest suicide rates. He had some (unknowable by us) problems, he had a gun, and he lived alone. He was  a sadly common statistic-- I don't think we should be trying to draw any meaning beyond that.

Anything along these lines is pure speculation except for those who knew him well - and even then may still be speculation. The most important thing I'd caution is that we do this type of analysis based on the assumption that other people see the world as we do. Some people are just different. I doubt many of us will ever understand how he viewed the world.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 27, 2020, 08:38:57 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 27, 2020, 07:44:48 AM
Middle aged white men who own guns and live alone have some of the highest suicide rates.

And what's being done about this systemic racism?
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 08:59:28 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 27, 2020, 07:44:48 AM
Let's not stigmatize mental illness by blaming it for this guy's abhorrent beliefs and behaviors, which were not a recent "missteps" but long-held and deliberate.

Fair enough.  There are plenty of good people who struggle with emotional and psychological problems---I've got several in my family and I have had my own troubles.

But it does seem like this fella was mentally ill to me.  And I think a great deal though not all of acute racism is actually mental illness.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 27, 2020, 09:17:05 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 08:59:28 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 27, 2020, 07:44:48 AM
Let's not stigmatize mental illness by blaming it for this guy's abhorrent beliefs and behaviors, which were not a recent "missteps" but long-held and deliberate.

Fair enough.  There are plenty of good people who struggle with emotional and psychological problems---I've got several in my family and I have had my own troubles.

But it does seem like this fella was mentally ill to me.  And I think a great deal though not all of acute racism is actually mental illness.

Things like disapproving of transsexualism, or the idea that there are many gender types that we need to identify and support, or the belief that academia has too much victimology mindset, I would predict, are going to be easy to find with this guy. Can you link us to a quotation or action of his that establishes that he has it in for black (sorry....Black) people? Haven't seen one yet. And you know this will be pinned on him, possibly only because it's got teeth. These are distinct allegations. It shouldn't be like playing pinball --when you're winning, you get bonuses. Each one is either found to be true, or, sorry, not yet. What I'm looking for is something conclusive. Not that he favors a policy towards immigration that people don't like. Not that he thinks that people who vandalize statues are thugs. Not that ten million liberal  scholars agree he speaks in microagressions. Not that he thinks urban Black men could likely be better off if they changed something about what they're doing. Not that he thinks quota hiring is wrong.  Not that he thinks Robin D'Angelo is an idiot.  I mean something that really shows that he has it in for people because of their skin color. That I would call mental illness. A lot of this stuff is just opinions people hate. Some are found in common religious dogma.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 09:45:22 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 27, 2020, 09:17:05 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 08:59:28 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 27, 2020, 07:44:48 AM
Let's not stigmatize mental illness by blaming it for this guy's abhorrent beliefs and behaviors, which were not a recent "missteps" but long-held and deliberate.

Fair enough.  There are plenty of good people who struggle with emotional and psychological problems---I've got several in my family and I have had my own troubles.

But it does seem like this fella was mentally ill to me.  And I think a great deal though not all of acute racism is actually mental illness.

Things like disapproving of transsexualism, or the idea that there are many gender types that we need to identify and support, I would predict, are going to be easy to find with this guy. Can you link us to a quotation or action of his that establishes that he has it in for black (sorry....Black) people? Haven't seen one yet. And you know this will be pinned on him, possibly only because it's got teeth.
What I'm looking for is something conclusive. Not that he favors a policy towards immigration that you don't like. Not that he thinks that people who vandalize statues are thugs. Not that he speaks in microagressions. Not that he thinks urban Black men could likely be better off if they changed something about what they're doing. I mean something that really shows that he has it in for people because of their skin color.

I presume you've read the same stories I did.  He was an insulting loudmouth who lacked any measured, intelligent commentary and simply seemed to enjoy egregious social media commentary that served no purpose other than to offend people----generally the sign of bias.  In other words, he was a dick.  And he was a dick about things that people feel strongly about.  Again, generally a sign of partly-muzzled bias.

Really, if you want to challenge the legitimacy of COVID policy or a particular field of study, okay.  Dumb, but okay, as long as you are an adult about it.  If you just want to upset the apple cart, it's generally a sign of frustration.  Poor Mr. Adams sounds like he had no other vent for his biases but to put his own head in the media-guillotine which, rightly or wrongly, fell.

What is interesting to me is that anybody cared.  What is the paradoxical position of the "professor" in society that we want to slowly starve the institution and at the same time single out this job title as somehow remarkable enough that a dick-bigot is worthy of a news story?  Would anybody have cared if this were, say, a supermarket manager or janitor or auto-mechanic or what-have-you? 
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Puget on July 27, 2020, 09:48:34 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 08:59:28 AM
And I think a great deal though not all of acute racism is actually mental illness.

I disagree-- I think that's too easy of an excuse. Were most white southerners (and a lot of northerners) mentally ill for centuries? Were most of the German people mentally ill, causing them to support the Nazis? "Collective madness" is an excuse on par with "just following orders." People believe things and act in ways which are abhorrent to us for reasons that have nothing to do with mental illness-- because they were inculcated with those beliefs by the culture/their family, and because they benefit (economically and/or psychologically).

Certainly, he was probably mentally ill, but I don't think that accounts for his political beliefs, as disturbing as they were to most of us.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 27, 2020, 09:50:43 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 09:45:22 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 27, 2020, 09:17:05 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 08:59:28 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 27, 2020, 07:44:48 AM
Let's not stigmatize mental illness by blaming it for this guy's abhorrent beliefs and behaviors, which were not a recent "missteps" but long-held and deliberate.

Fair enough.  There are plenty of good people who struggle with emotional and psychological problems---I've got several in my family and I have had my own troubles.

But it does seem like this fella was mentally ill to me.  And I think a great deal though not all of acute racism is actually mental illness.

Things like disapproving of transsexualism, or the idea that there are many gender types that we need to identify and support, I would predict, are going to be easy to find with this guy. Can you link us to a quotation or action of his that establishes that he has it in for black (sorry....Black) people? Haven't seen one yet. And you know this will be pinned on him, possibly only because it's got teeth.
What I'm looking for is something conclusive. Not that he favors a policy towards immigration that you don't like. Not that he thinks that people who vandalize statues are thugs. Not that he speaks in microagressions. Not that he thinks urban Black men could likely be better off if they changed something about what they're doing. I mean something that really shows that he has it in for people because of their skin color.

I presume you've read the same stories I did.  He was an insulting loudmouth who lacked any measured, intelligent commentary and simply seemed to enjoy egregious social media commentary that served no purpose other than to offend people----generally the sign of bias.  In other words, he was a dick.  And he was a dick about things that people feel strongly about.  Again, generally a sign of partly-muzzled bias.

Really, if you want to challenge the legitimacy of COVID policy or a particular field of study, okay.  Dumb, but okay, as long as you are an adult about it.  If you just want to upset the apple cart, it's generally a sign of frustration.  Poor Mr. Adams sounds like he had no other vent for his biases but to put his own head in the media-guillotine which, rightly or wrongly, fell.

What is interesting to me is that anybody cared.  What is the paradoxical position of the "professor" in society that we want to slowly starve the institution and at the same time single out this job title as somehow remarkable enough that a dick-bigot is worthy of a news story?  Would anybody have cared if this were, say, a supermarket manager or janitor or auto-mechanic or what-have-you?

OK, but...you still haven't shown one quotation. The way you describe him, it should be as easy as picking dandelions.
And it's so easy to offend people nowadays that, yes, it becomes a game. And there are some who deserve it to be.

and in other words, evidently you agree that you can throw in racism because you think someone's obnoxious company.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 10:05:22 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 27, 2020, 09:48:34 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 08:59:28 AM
And I think a great deal though not all of acute racism is actually mental illness.

I disagree-- I think that's too easy of an excuse. Were most white southerners (and a lot of northerners) mentally ill for centuries? Were most of the German people mentally ill, causing them to support the Nazis? "Collective madness" is an excuse on par with "just following orders." People believe things and act in ways which are abhorrent to us for reasons that have nothing to do with mental illness-- because they were inculcated with those beliefs by the culture/their family, and because they benefit (economically and/or psychologically).

Certainly, he was probably mentally ill, but I don't think that accounts for his political beliefs, as disturbing as they were to most of us.

Perhaps I mis-posted or maybe didn't qualify enough.  Certainly racism is a matter of culture and upbringing as much as anything else. I was just thinking of James Fields ramming his car into protesters or Jeremy Joseph Christian stabbing people on a train.  The interviews I've seen with Richard Spencer and David Duke, both of whom would meet legal definitions of sanity, also struck me as indicative of mental illness.  Perhaps I am drawing the distinction too broadly and judging from superficial traits, but in all these cases I thought there was something very wrong with their demeanor that spoke to something more than, say, inculcation of racist beliefs from childhood or immersion in a racist culture (which I don't think is the case with Duke and certainly not with Spenser).  There was simply something badly skewed in their thoughts and motivations.   There is a distinct lack of logic and empathy in these sorts of people, grinding hate, and delusion about what they can actually accomplish (the white father-land pipe dream) that just speaks to a dislocation from reality, not to mention that they have endangered their own persons and made themselves public pariahs, which just screams mental dysfunction...or maybe I don't know what I am talking about.

And then there is Trump, who seems to have the "dark triad" in spades but is too narcissistic to get it.  Can we call that a normally functioning mind?

Anyway, I didn't mean to imply any sort of excuse, just an observation.  Hate and criminality always have contexts, after all.

Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 27, 2020, 10:17:20 AM
QuoteI disagree-- I think that's too easy of an excuse. Were most white southerners (and a lot of northerners) mentally ill for centuries? Were most of the German people mentally ill, causing them to support the Nazis? "Collective madness" is an excuse on par with "just following orders."

More recently, people who watch without saying anything, or join the chorus, when others are groundlessly called racist, are 'just following orders.' And I can name a person who was on the receiving end of this cowardly behavior. Mitt Romney.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: marshwiggle on July 27, 2020, 10:25:32 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 10:05:22 AM

Perhaps I mis-posted or maybe didn't qualify enough.  Certainly racism is a matter of culture and upbringing as much as anything else. I was just thinking of James Fields ramming his car into protesters or Jeremy Joseph Christian stabbing people on a train.  The interviews I've seen with Richard Spencer and David Duke, both of whom would meet legal definitions of sanity, also struck me as indicative of mental illness.  Perhaps I am drawing the distinction too broadly and judging from superficial traits, but in all these cases I thought there was something very wrong with their demeanor that spoke to something more than, say, inculcation of racist beliefs from childhood or immersion in a racist culture (which I don't think is the case with Duke and certainly not with Spenser).  There was simply something badly skewed in their thoughts and motivations.   There is a distinct lack of logic and empathy in these sorts of people, grinding hate, and delusion about what they can actually accomplish (the white father-land pipe dream) that just speaks to a dislocation from reality, not to mention that they have endangered their own persons and made themselves public pariahs, which just screams mental dysfunction...or maybe I don't know what I am talking about.

How about the BLM leader saying that whites are sub-human (https://www.westernjournal.com/blm-leader-exposed-called-whites-sub-human-genetically-defective-said-blacks-superhumans/)? Does that count as mental illness as well?
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 11:33:24 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 27, 2020, 10:25:32 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 10:05:22 AM

Perhaps I mis-posted or maybe didn't qualify enough.  Certainly racism is a matter of culture and upbringing as much as anything else. I was just thinking of James Fields ramming his car into protesters or Jeremy Joseph Christian stabbing people on a train.  The interviews I've seen with Richard Spencer and David Duke, both of whom would meet legal definitions of sanity, also struck me as indicative of mental illness.  Perhaps I am drawing the distinction too broadly and judging from superficial traits, but in all these cases I thought there was something very wrong with their demeanor that spoke to something more than, say, inculcation of racist beliefs from childhood or immersion in a racist culture (which I don't think is the case with Duke and certainly not with Spenser).  There was simply something badly skewed in their thoughts and motivations.   There is a distinct lack of logic and empathy in these sorts of people, grinding hate, and delusion about what they can actually accomplish (the white father-land pipe dream) that just speaks to a dislocation from reality, not to mention that they have endangered their own persons and made themselves public pariahs, which just screams mental dysfunction...or maybe I don't know what I am talking about.

How about the BLM leader saying that whites are sub-human (https://www.westernjournal.com/blm-leader-exposed-called-whites-sub-human-genetically-defective-said-blacks-superhumans/)? Does that count as mental illness as well?

Geeze.  Yeeeeeesss Marshy, both sides have irrational people.  My God, son.

Provided that the quote is true, she sounds like a very frustrated, radicalized, immature, not very smart person.  Is that "mental illness"?  Maybe.  Dunno.  We'll see what her other behaviors are.  She is not someone I would particularly follow or would associate with.  I might suggest that her history is different from Mike Adams, which may account for her radicalism (I can only imagine the kind of person you would be, Marshy, if you had come from a demographic with a history of similar oppression), but that is a cul de sac conservatives want to avoid.

And way to post a right-wing tabloid agitprop. The depth of your thought never ceases to amaze me, Marshy. 
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: marshwiggle on July 27, 2020, 12:04:48 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 11:33:24 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 27, 2020, 10:25:32 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 10:05:22 AM

Perhaps I mis-posted or maybe didn't qualify enough.  Certainly racism is a matter of culture and upbringing as much as anything else. I was just thinking of James Fields ramming his car into protesters or Jeremy Joseph Christian stabbing people on a train.  The interviews I've seen with Richard Spencer and David Duke, both of whom would meet legal definitions of sanity, also struck me as indicative of mental illness.  Perhaps I am drawing the distinction too broadly and judging from superficial traits, but in all these cases I thought there was something very wrong with their demeanor that spoke to something more than, say, inculcation of racist beliefs from childhood or immersion in a racist culture (which I don't think is the case with Duke and certainly not with Spenser).  There was simply something badly skewed in their thoughts and motivations.   There is a distinct lack of logic and empathy in these sorts of people, grinding hate, and delusion about what they can actually accomplish (the white father-land pipe dream) that just speaks to a dislocation from reality, not to mention that they have endangered their own persons and made themselves public pariahs, which just screams mental dysfunction...or maybe I don't know what I am talking about.

How about the BLM leader saying that whites are sub-human (https://www.westernjournal.com/blm-leader-exposed-called-whites-sub-human-genetically-defective-said-blacks-superhumans/)? Does that count as mental illness as well?

Geeze.  Yeeeeeesss Marshy, both sides have irrational people.  My God, son.

Provided that the quote is true, she sounds like a very frustrated, radicalized, immature, not very smart person.  Is that "mental illness"?  Maybe.  Dunno.  We'll see what her other behaviors are.  She is not someone I would particularly follow or would associate with.  I might suggest that her history is different from Mike Adams, which may account for her radicalism (I can only imagine the kind of person you would be, Marshy, if you had come from a demographic with a history of similar oppression), but that is a cul de sac conservatives want to avoid.

And way to post a right-wing tabloid agitprop. The depth of your thought never ceases to amaze me, Marshy.

Hoiw about this one (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/yusra-khogali-twitter-the-star-1.3529105)?
Quote
On Feb. 9, Yusra Khogali tweeted, "Plz Allah give me strength to not cuss/kill these men and white folks out here today. Plz plz plz."

Or is the CBC also a "right-wing tabloid agitprop"?
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 02:25:29 PM
You really don't get things, do you Marshy?
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 27, 2020, 05:18:16 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 09:45:22 AM

What is interesting to me is that anybody cared.  What is the paradoxical position of the "professor" in society that we want to slowly starve the institution and at the same time single out this job title as somehow remarkable enough that a dick-bigot is worthy of a news story?  Would anybody have cared if this were, say, a supermarket manager or janitor or auto-mechanic or what-have-you?

Easy to see what the story is here. I would have expected academics wish the story would go away because they think it makes tenure look bad whether because (1) he wasn't a very nice guy, or, (2) he sued successfully against their denying him a promotion and he won the case and the promotion and it cost them almost a million. So either way it's a black eye for tenure. You can see more evidence of this, the pearl-clutching on the 'asides' thread.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 05:45:32 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 27, 2020, 09:50:43 AM

OK, but...you still haven't shown one quotation. The way you describe him, it should be as easy as picking dandelions.
And it's so easy to offend people nowadays that, yes, it becomes a game. And there are some who deserve it to be.

and in other words, evidently you agree that you can throw in racism because you think someone's obnoxious company.

I thought I answered this.  I guess it was removed?  Or maybe I forgot to "post."

Anyway, this did a pretty good job of isolating exactly what you are asking, even if you don't appreciate the doxxing aspect of the site.

https://ratemyracistprofessor.com/professors/anti-immigrant/mike-adams/

Say what you will, Adams rhetoric is just hate-filled.  I spent a little time today reading his "Muck Rack" links: hatred, attack journalism (sometimes very personally), and lop-sided stoking the cultural wars.  He represents no reasonable position.  He struck the poise that many of these self-righteous hatemongers do and portrayed himself as a victim even as he strove to victimize other people.  His school hated him----he excreted where he consumed; they tried to get rid of him and he won, but every day he had to go to a place where people hated him.  He started a fight and in the end it took him down.

What possible good comes from acting the way this guy did?
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 27, 2020, 06:23:28 PM
I agree, he was piece of work. Nevertheless, I stick to this: insulting Blacks Live Matter is not the same as insulting Black people in general. Black Lives Matter is an organization with a website, a statement of 'what we believe' (some of it downright stupid, as I've already posted), as least one nutty immature person among the founders, as you acknowledged upthread, and most definitely an agenda. I would bet my last dollar he liked Coleman Hughes and Candace Owens or at least some of those Black conservatives.

Calling your organization "Black Lives Matter" and insisting that anyone who doesn't support their agenda believes that black lives don't matter is like saying "Support The Troops" has to mean you're voting for George W. Bush and his regime changing for a second term or else you're not patriotic. These are bullshit emotional blackmail ploys.

Therefore, I don't see racism. Every time somebody points a finger and says 'racist' Black Lives Matter is getting their flame fanned. This would bother some critical thinkers.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 07:47:50 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 27, 2020, 06:23:28 PM
I agree, he was piece of work. Nevertheless, I stick to this: insulting Blacks Live Matter is not the same as insulting Black people in general.

[...]

Therefore, I don't see racism. Every time somebody points a finger and says 'racist' Black Lives Matter is getting their flame fanned. This would bother some critical thinkers.

Did you read the things he wrote?  Plenty of people take issue with BLM, some more legitimately than others.  And, while there are issues with BLM as there are with all things human, there is the notion that racism has morphed into something that hides behind the guise of rational criticism but is simply racially motivated resentment.  It's a long way from Jim Crow but insidious in its own way.

But you are being disingenuous if you claim he "just pointed the finger at Black Lives Matter." 

Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: marshwiggle on July 27, 2020, 07:51:28 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 07:47:50 PM
And, while there are issues with BLM as there are with all things human, there is the notion that racism has morphed into something that hides behind the guise of rational criticism but is simply racially motivated resentment.  It's a long way from Jim Crow but insidious in its own way.


Pretty Orwellian to talk about the "guise" of rational criticism. Either an argument makes logical sense or it doesn't. If it does, it's true no matter what the reasons are for someone making it and it deserves to be taken seriously.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 27, 2020, 08:04:07 PM
**
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 27, 2020, 08:24:00 PM
QuoteDid you read the things he wrote?  Plenty of people take issue with BLM, some more legitimately than others.  And, while there are issues with BLM as there are with all things human, there is the notion that racism has morphed into something that hides behind the guise of rational criticism but is simply racially motivated resentment.

Didn't go so well for this woman.  https://www.vnews.com/Windsor-High-School-Story-34741525
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 04:56:16 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 27, 2020, 08:24:00 PM
QuoteDid you read the things he wrote?  Plenty of people take issue with BLM, some more legitimately than others.  And, while there are issues with BLM as there are with all things human, there is the notion that racism has morphed into something that hides behind the guise of rational criticism but is simply racially motivated resentment.

Didn't go so well for this woman.  https://www.vnews.com/Windsor-High-School-Story-34741525

Yeah, it's scary when one can lose one's livelihood over comments spoken or posted off the job.  I totally think this principal should be reinstated with back-pay and pain-and-suffering.  We need laws to protect people from this sort of harassment and intimidation.   What sort of democracy are we where people are afraid to speak their minds?

It is very frightening when institutions, particularly government institutions, have control over what we say and do.

But I don't know what you think you've proved by posting this.

Are you, my friend, dividing the world as if you are cheering for a football team?  Are you trying to illustrate how some people who support BLM can be overly zealous?  Well, duh. 

This story does nothing to invalidate what BLM is trying to do.  That post does nothing to alter the racism hiding behind political posturing.  If anything, this incident demonstrates the insensitivity of one individual (BLM does not say anyone's else's life is unimportant or any less important---Principal Tiffany was stupid on that account) and the zealotry of frustrated people (it appears the members of the community made the typically hysterical association between critique, no matter how ill-informed, and overt racism).  It's all very frustrating.

Mahagonny my brother, you've just enacted the other major issue facing Western culture right now: the insistence on martyrdom as an attempt to invalidate people who you disagree with.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 28, 2020, 05:48:30 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 04:56:16 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 27, 2020, 08:24:00 PM
QuoteDid you read the things he wrote?  Plenty of people take issue with BLM, some more legitimately than others.  And, while there are issues with BLM as there are with all things human, there is the notion that racism has morphed into something that hides behind the guise of rational criticism but is simply racially motivated resentment.

Didn't go so well for this woman.  https://www.vnews.com/Windsor-High-School-Story-34741525

Yeah, it's scary when one can lose one's livelihood over comments spoken or posted off the job.  I totally think this principal should be reinstated with back-pay and pain-and-suffering.  We need laws to protect people from this sort of harassment and intimidation.   What sort of democracy are we where people are afraid to speak their minds?

It is very frightening when institutions, particularly government institutions, have control over what we say and do.

But I don't know what you think you've proved by posting this.

Are you, my friend, dividing the world as if you are cheering for a football team?  Are you trying to illustrate how some people who support BLM can be overly zealous?  Well, duh. 

This story does nothing to invalidate what BLM is trying to do.
That post does nothing to alter the racism hiding behind political posturing.  If anything, this incident demonstrates the insensitivity of one individual (BLM does not say anyone's else's life is unimportant or any less important---Principal Tiffany was stupid on that account) and the zealotry of frustrated people (it appears the members of the community made the typically hysterical association between critique, no matter how ill-informed, and overt racism).  It's all very frustrating.

Mahagonny my brother, you've just enacted the other major issue facing Western culture right now: the insistence on martyrdom as an attempt to invalidate people who you disagree with.

It's an example of what they are trying to do. They want to see people like Tiffany fired. They want to infiltrate college curricula and change our teaching. It's astonishing to me how college professors who pride themselves on healthy skepticism about initiatives that come from above or outside, get their hackles up over even the possibility of academic freedom infringement, seem to be so trusting of this mob. And, they claim to take pride in the dissolution of the nuclear family, which has obviously been the biggest setback for urban blacks since around 1960. I can't think of a single reason to support them other than peer pressure.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 06:45:43 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 28, 2020, 05:48:30 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 04:56:16 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 27, 2020, 08:24:00 PM
QuoteDid you read the things he wrote?  Plenty of people take issue with BLM, some more legitimately than others.  And, while there are issues with BLM as there are with all things human, there is the notion that racism has morphed into something that hides behind the guise of rational criticism but is simply racially motivated resentment.

Didn't go so well for this woman.  https://www.vnews.com/Windsor-High-School-Story-34741525

Yeah, it's scary when one can lose one's livelihood over comments spoken or posted off the job.  I totally think this principal should be reinstated with back-pay and pain-and-suffering.  We need laws to protect people from this sort of harassment and intimidation.   What sort of democracy are we where people are afraid to speak their minds?

It is very frightening when institutions, particularly government institutions, have control over what we say and do.

But I don't know what you think you've proved by posting this.

Are you, my friend, dividing the world as if you are cheering for a football team?  Are you trying to illustrate how some people who support BLM can be overly zealous?  Well, duh. 

This story does nothing to invalidate what BLM is trying to do.
That post does nothing to alter the racism hiding behind political posturing.  If anything, this incident demonstrates the insensitivity of one individual (BLM does not say anyone's else's life is unimportant or any less important---Principal Tiffany was stupid on that account) and the zealotry of frustrated people (it appears the members of the community made the typically hysterical association between critique, no matter how ill-informed, and overt racism).  It's all very frustrating.

Mahagonny my brother, you've just enacted the other major issue facing Western culture right now: the insistence on martyrdom as an attempt to invalidate people who you disagree with.

It's an example of what they are trying to do. They want to see people like Tiffany fired. They want to infiltrate college curricula and change our teaching. It's astonishing to me how college professors who pride themselves on healthy skepticism about initiatives that come from above or outside, get their hackles up over even the possibility of academic freedom infringement, seem to be so trusting of this mob. And, they claim to take pride in the dissolution of the nuclear family, which has obviously been the biggest setback for urban blacks since around 1960. I can't think of a single reason to support them other than peer pressure.

"They"?

"this mob"?

"take pride in the dissolution of the nuclear family"!?

BLM has no redeeming qualities but instead want to dissolve the family!?

Uh, no.

There really is no reason to discuss here.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 07:23:52 PM
And BTW, is your reaction any less sectarian and hysterical than the people who had Principal Riley fired?
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 28, 2020, 07:37:25 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 07:23:52 PM
And BTW, is your reaction any less sectarian and hysterical than the people who had Principal Riley fired?

It's taken from their website: 'what we believe.'
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 07:58:55 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 28, 2020, 07:37:25 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 07:23:52 PM
And BTW, is your reaction any less sectarian and hysterical than the people who had Principal Riley fired?

It's taken from their website: 'what we believe.'

Quote
What We Believe (https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/)
Four years ago, what is now known as the Black Lives Matter Global Network began to organize. It started out as a chapter-based, member-led organization whose mission was to build local power and to intervene when violence was inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes.

In the years since, we've committed to struggling together and to imagining and creating a world free of anti-Blackness, where every Black person has the social, economic, and political power to thrive.

Black Lives Matter began as a call to action in response to state-sanctioned violence and anti-Black racism. Our intention from the very beginning was to connect Black people from all over the world who have a shared desire for justice to act together in their communities. The impetus for that commitment was, and still is, the rampant and deliberate violence inflicted on us by the state.

Enraged by the death of Trayvon Martin and the subsequent acquittal of his killer, George Zimmerman, and inspired by the 31-day takeover of the Florida State Capitol by POWER U and the Dream Defenders, we took to the streets. A year later, we set out together on the Black Lives Matter Freedom Ride to Ferguson, in search of justice for Mike Brown and all of those who have been torn apart by state-sanctioned violence and anti-Black racism. Forever changed, we returned home and began building the infrastructure for the Black Lives Matter Global Network, which, even in its infancy, has become a political home for many.

Ferguson helped to catalyze a movement to which we've all helped give life. Organizers who call this network home have ousted anti-Black politicians, won critical legislation to benefit Black lives, and changed the terms of the debate on Blackness around the world. Through movement and relationship building, we have also helped catalyze other movements and shifted culture with an eye toward the dangerous impacts of anti-Blackness.

These are the results of our collective efforts.

The Black Lives Matter Global Network is as powerful as it is because of our membership, our partners, our supporters, our staff, and you. Our continued commitment to liberation for all Black people means we are continuing the work of our ancestors and fighting for our collective freedom because it is our duty.

Every day, we recommit to healing ourselves and each other, and to co-creating alongside comrades, allies, and family a culture where each person feels seen, heard, and supported.

We acknowledge, respect, and celebrate differences and commonalities.

We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people.

We intentionally build and nurture a beloved community that is bonded together through a beautiful struggle that is restorative, not depleting.

We are unapologetically Black in our positioning. In affirming that Black Lives Matter, we need not qualify our position. To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a prerequisite for wanting the same for others.

We see ourselves as part of the global Black family, and we are aware of the different ways we are impacted or privileged as Black people who exist in different parts of the world.

We are guided by the fact that all Black lives matter, regardless of actual or perceived sexual identity, gender identity, gender expression, economic status, ability, disability, religious beliefs or disbeliefs, immigration status, or location.

We make space for transgender brothers and sisters to participate and lead.

We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.

We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered.

We practice empathy. We engage comrades with the intent to learn about and connect with their contexts.

We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work "double shifts" so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice work.

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and "villages" that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.


We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).

We cultivate an intergenerational and communal network free from ageism. We believe that all people, regardless of age, show up with the capacity to lead and learn.

We embody and practice justice, liberation, and peace in our engagements with one another.

If you really do teach college you will have the intellect and perspicacity to see where you have distorted what the website says.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: kaysixteen on July 28, 2020, 09:33:27 PM
WRT the now-fired principal, had she been a Walmart cashier and made these sorts of remarks, she may have been fired.   But public school principals are public figures, and must not make divisive remarks that serve no purpose and may well indicate racism on line.   She will lose the confidence of her community, especially in a bright bright bright blue place like Vermont.  She has no tenure, further, and no right to maintain her position once her remarks demonstrate valid reasons to suspect she may be less than fair in her treatment of all her students and families.   
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 09:48:44 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 28, 2020, 09:33:27 PM
WRT the now-fired principal, had she been a Walmart cashier and made these sorts of remarks, she may have been fired.   But public school principals are public figures, and must not make divisive remarks that serve no purpose and may well indicate racism on line.   She will lose the confidence of her community, especially in a bright bright bright blue place like Vermont.  She has no tenure, further, and no right to maintain her position once her remarks demonstrate valid reasons to suspect she may be less than fair in her treatment of all her students and families.

Gotta disagree.

Her comments were relatively mild, in the first place, and did not demonstrate any valid reasons to indicate she behaves unfairly toward anyone.  She does not appear to understand BLM, but her opinion is her right.

In the second place, we are on very dangerous ground.  We are edging into territory in which our private lives are dictated by our employers, and in this case a public employer.  Think about it: Institutions can tell us what to say and what not to say when we are not on the job.  That's frightening.  America has always prided itself on the ability of its citizens to express themselves, even if that opinion is unpopular.  School principals have as much right to speak their minds as do cashiers. 

Be honest, how would you have reacted if Principal Riley were fired for supporting BLM?  There are places in America that would like to see that happen to BLM supporters (see out friend Mahagonny's reaction above).

Not only that, but this move will hurt BLM.  I guarantee the conservative websites are jumping all over this----Windsor just gave hardcore, sectarian conservatives exactly what they want.  BLM just lost.

There was a time within living memory that people could be openly fired for being gay or publicly supporting communism, and the reasons were very much the same as you just stated----we may be returning to just these sorts of mentality.  Very frightening.

I support BLM.  I do not support people who take their good message too far.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 05:01:05 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 07:58:55 PM

Quote
What We Believe (https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/)


We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement


If you really do teach college you will have the intellect and perspicacity to see where you have distorted what the website says.

You highlighted the part after this, but not this. What is the "nuclear family structure requirement", and why is it inherently "Western"? And what does it mean to "disrupt" the "requirement"? If most people drink coffee for breakfast, I doubt many people would call opening a tea shop "disruptive". Recognizing alternatives isn't disruptive by nature; it's only disruptive when there's some effort to undermine.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 05:18:17 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 05:01:05 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 07:58:55 PM

Quote
What We Believe (https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/)


We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement


If you really do teach college you will have the intellect and perspicacity to see where you have distorted what the website says.

You highlighted the part after this, but not this. What is the "nuclear family structure requirement", and why is it inherently "Western"? And what does it mean to "disrupt" the "requirement"? If most people drink coffee for breakfast, I doubt many people would call opening a tea shop "disruptive". Recognizing alternatives isn't disruptive by nature; it's only disruptive when there's some effort to undermine.

I suspect that it's already known that children born out of wedlock and fatherless homes are such an epidemic that the 'disruption' is fait accompli. What they are attempting to do now is put a positive spin on it by implying "sure, there's a huge deficit in regular families, but we have a replacement. The community-family.' Which is a pipe dream. What works for white America will also work for black America. The nuclear family. Kids' lives matter. And that's why BLM  is off on the wrong trolley.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 06:08:25 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 05:18:17 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 05:01:05 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 07:58:55 PM

Quote
What We Believe (https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/)


We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement


If you really do teach college you will have the intellect and perspicacity to see where you have distorted what the website says.

You highlighted the part after this, but not this. What is the "nuclear family structure requirement", and why is it inherently "Western"? And what does it mean to "disrupt" the "requirement"? If most people drink coffee for breakfast, I doubt many people would call opening a tea shop "disruptive". Recognizing alternatives isn't disruptive by nature; it's only disruptive when there's some effort to undermine.

I suspect that it's already known that children born out of wedlock and fatherless homes are such an epidemic that the 'disruption' is fait accompli. What they are attempting to do now is put a positive spin on it by implying "sure, there's a huge deficit in regular families, but we have a replacement. The community-family.' Which is a pipe dream. What works for white America will also work for black America. The nuclear family. Kids' lives matter. And that's why BLM  is off on the wrong trolley.

And historically did work for black families (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_family_structure).

Quote
The family structure of African Americans has long been a matter of national public policy interest. A 1965 report by Daniel Patrick Moynihan, known as The Moynihan Report, examined the link between black poverty and family structure. It hypothesized that the destruction of the black nuclear family structure would hinder further progress toward economic and political equality.

When Moynihan wrote in 1965 on the coming destruction of the black family, the out-of-wedlock birth rate was 25% among blacks. In 1991, 68% of black children were born outside of marriage. In 2011, 72% of black babies were born to unmarried mothers. In 2015, 77% of black babies were born to unmarried mothers.

Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Caracal on July 29, 2020, 06:27:44 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 09:48:44 PM
[

Her comments were relatively mild, in the first place, and did not demonstrate any valid reasons to indicate she behaves unfairly toward anyone.  She does not appear to understand BLM, but her opinion is her right.

In the second place, we are on very dangerous ground.  We are edging into territory in which our private lives are dictated by our employers, and in this case a public employer.  Think about it: Institutions can tell us what to say and what not to say when we are not on the job.  That's frightening.  America has always prided itself on the ability of its citizens to express themselves, even if that opinion is unpopular.  School principals have as much right to speak their minds as do cashiers. 



Well, there never has been a right to not face consequences for speech. Those consequences just can't involve prosecution by the government in most circumstances. I agree that the principal's remarks weren't particularly egregious, but as Kay points out, she is in a position of authority and trust. If you're the principal of a school and you say something that most students, parents and alumni think is incredibly tone deaf and ignorant about an issue important to them, it is going to be really hard to do your job effectively.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 06:42:10 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 29, 2020, 06:27:44 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 09:48:44 PM

Her comments were relatively mild, in the first place, and did not demonstrate any valid reasons to indicate she behaves unfairly toward anyone.  She does not appear to understand BLM, but her opinion is her right.

In the second place, we are on very dangerous ground.  We are edging into territory in which our private lives are dictated by our employers, and in this case a public employer.  Think about it: Institutions can tell us what to say and what not to say when we are not on the job.  That's frightening.  America has always prided itself on the ability of its citizens to express themselves, even if that opinion is unpopular.  School principals have as much right to speak their minds as do cashiers. 



Well, there never has been a right to not face consequences for speech. Those consequences just can't involve prosecution by the government in most circumstances. I agree that the principal's remarks weren't particularly egregious, but as Kay points out, she is in a position of authority and trust. If you're the principal of a school and you say something that most students, parents and alumni think is incredibly tone deaf and ignorant about an issue important to them, it is going to be really hard to do your job effectively.

You've just defined mob rule and letting people get ostracized for not conforming.
If the goal were to enable her to do her job effectively, then the logical thing to do would be to remind people that while the Black Lives Matter and its stated agenda have the support of many in the community, it is not a requirement of her job to support and nurture the success and inclusion of Black Americans in the specific ways that that organization prescribes.
But that's not the goal. The goal is to help get a good head of steam for the revolution. Yeaahhh!!! (channelling Howard Dean).
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Caracal on July 29, 2020, 07:08:58 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 06:42:10 AM


If the goal were to enable her to do her job effectively, then the logical thing to do would be to remind people that while the Black Lives Matter and its stated agenda have the support of many in the community, it is not a requirement of her job to support and nurture the success and inclusion of Black Americans in the specific ways that that organization prescribes.

You don't get to decide what other people find acceptable in their leadership. Would a department chair be able to operate effectively if he was a vocal holocaust denier? If the director of my kid's day care was always posting about how George Soros was operating a conspiracy against America, I wouldn't be ok with that. If enough other people felt the same way, they'd probably be fired.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 07:17:12 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 29, 2020, 07:08:58 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 06:42:10 AM


If the goal were to enable her to do her job effectively, then the logical thing to do would be to remind people that while the Black Lives Matter and its stated agenda have the support of many in the community, it is not a requirement of her job to support and nurture the success and inclusion of Black Americans in the specific ways that that organization prescribes.

You don't get to decide what other people find acceptable in their leadership. Would a department chair be able to operate effectively if he was a vocal holocaust denier? If the director of my kid's day care was always posting about how George Soros was operating a conspiracy against America, I wouldn't be ok with that. If enough other people felt the same way, they'd probably be fired.

But as  Wahoo said,
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 09:48:44 PM
Be honest, how would you have reacted if Principal Riley were fired for supporting BLM?  There are places in America that would like to see that happen to BLM supporters .

Would you be as sanguine about that situation?
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: tuxthepenguin on July 29, 2020, 07:40:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 09:48:44 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 28, 2020, 09:33:27 PM
WRT the now-fired principal, had she been a Walmart cashier and made these sorts of remarks, she may have been fired.   But public school principals are public figures, and must not make divisive remarks that serve no purpose and may well indicate racism on line.   She will lose the confidence of her community, especially in a bright bright bright blue place like Vermont.  She has no tenure, further, and no right to maintain her position once her remarks demonstrate valid reasons to suspect she may be less than fair in her treatment of all her students and families.

Gotta disagree.

Her comments were relatively mild, in the first place, and did not demonstrate any valid reasons to indicate she behaves unfairly toward anyone.  She does not appear to understand BLM, but her opinion is her right.

In the second place, we are on very dangerous ground.  We are edging into territory in which our private lives are dictated by our employers, and in this case a public employer.  Think about it: Institutions can tell us what to say and what not to say when we are not on the job.  That's frightening.  America has always prided itself on the ability of its citizens to express themselves, even if that opinion is unpopular.  School principals have as much right to speak their minds as do cashiers. 

I almost agree with you. If something like "race relations" is a big part of the job, statements like this can indicate potential bias or ignorance that would prevent you from properly doing your job, so firing is a perfectly acceptable outcome. I don't see how that applies in this particular case, but it's possible to construct theoretical scenarios in which her firing was not completely insane. I also disagree that this didn't happen in the past. See, among others, Dalton Trumbo.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: apl68 on July 29, 2020, 07:47:16 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 09:48:44 PM

I support BLM.  I do not support people who take their good message too far.

I support it in principle also.  A majority of Americans have come to support police reform.  A majority of Americans have come to acknowledge that racism is still a serious problem in our society.  That's a huge win in terms of raising awareness and support.

But I am deeply concerned that the growing radicalism of so many BLM supporters and their demands is going to damage the chances of getting the reforms we need.  The ongoing nightly riots and near-riots in certain cities are already damaging support for police reforms.  I personally can't endorse BLM as a movement despite my sympathy for their initial goals, because they speak of "abolition" instead of reform, and their leadership seems to have moved far to the left on many other issues. 

Just one example of how BLM has been hijacked.  In recent days vandals have been spray painting all over graves at our state's largest Confederate Civil War cemetery.  Prominent among the messages has been "Black Lives Matter."  Isn't cemetery vandalism considered a hate crime?  Yet in the minds of a growing number of people--people who have ancestors buried in this cemetery--BLM is now being associated with this kind of hate.  I suspect that there have been other incidents like this in other states as well.

Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 08:25:01 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 06:08:25 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 05:18:17 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 05:01:05 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 07:58:55 PM

Quote
What We Believe (https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/)


We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement


If you really do teach college you will have the intellect and perspicacity to see where you have distorted what the website says.

You highlighted the part after this, but not this. What is the "nuclear family structure requirement", and why is it inherently "Western"? And what does it mean to "disrupt" the "requirement"? If most people drink coffee for breakfast, I doubt many people would call opening a tea shop "disruptive". Recognizing alternatives isn't disruptive by nature; it's only disruptive when there's some effort to undermine.

I suspect that it's already known that children born out of wedlock and fatherless homes are such an epidemic that the 'disruption' is fait accompli. What they are attempting to do now is put a positive spin on it by implying "sure, there's a huge deficit in regular families, but we have a replacement. The community-family.' Which is a pipe dream. What works for white America will also work for black America. The nuclear family. Kids' lives matter. And that's why BLM  is off on the wrong trolley.

And historically did work for black families (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_family_structure).

Quote
The family structure of African Americans has long been a matter of national public policy interest. A 1965 report by Daniel Patrick Moynihan, known as The Moynihan Report, examined the link between black poverty and family structure. It hypothesized that the destruction of the black nuclear family structure would hinder further progress toward economic and political equality.

When Moynihan wrote in 1965 on the coming destruction of the black family, the out-of-wedlock birth rate was 25% among blacks. In 1991, 68% of black children were born outside of marriage. In 2011, 72% of black babies were born to unmarried mothers. In 2015, 77% of black babies were born to unmarried mothers.


Come on, kids.  That is not what they are saying.  I highlighted everything and underlined further to make sure the context is clear.  You are the ones cherry-picking and taking out of context.

Academics, of all people, should not do that.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 08:34:10 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on July 29, 2020, 07:40:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 09:48:44 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 28, 2020, 09:33:27 PM
WRT the now-fired principal, had she been a Walmart cashier and made these sorts of remarks, she may have been fired.   But public school principals are public figures, and must not make divisive remarks that serve no purpose and may well indicate racism on line.   She will lose the confidence of her community, especially in a bright bright bright blue place like Vermont.  She has no tenure, further, and no right to maintain her position once her remarks demonstrate valid reasons to suspect she may be less than fair in her treatment of all her students and families.

Gotta disagree.

Her comments were relatively mild, in the first place, and did not demonstrate any valid reasons to indicate she behaves unfairly toward anyone.  She does not appear to understand BLM, but her opinion is her right.

In the second place, we are on very dangerous ground.  We are edging into territory in which our private lives are dictated by our employers, and in this case a public employer.  Think about it: Institutions can tell us what to say and what not to say when we are not on the job.  That's frightening.  America has always prided itself on the ability of its citizens to express themselves, even if that opinion is unpopular.  School principals have as much right to speak their minds as do cashiers. 

I almost agree with you. If something like "race relations" is a big part of the job, statements like this can indicate potential bias or ignorance that would prevent you from properly doing your job, so firing is a perfectly acceptable outcome. I don't see how that applies in this particular case, but it's possible to construct theoretical scenarios in which her firing was not completely insane. I also disagree that this didn't happen in the past. See, among others, Dalton Trumbo.

The line goes both ways, though.

At what point do we decide that someone has indicated a potential bias?  What is a correct philosophy or persona?  If a Facebook post expressing a political opinion (and BLM is political) can get one fired, we are sneaking toward an Orwellian culture.  As apl68 pointe out, there may be some reasons to question BLM.

Dalton Trumbo is indeed a perfect example.  As I said, we are on very thin ice here.   

And, again as apl68 just posted, BLM is destroying its own base through radicalism and zealotry.  FOX news and Breitbart just got new headlines. 

More importantly: Should apl68 now lose hu's job if someone finds out who apl68 really is?   
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Caracal on July 29, 2020, 08:38:27 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 07:17:12 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 29, 2020, 07:08:58 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 06:42:10 AM


If the goal were to enable her to do her job effectively, then the logical thing to do would be to remind people that while the Black Lives Matter and its stated agenda have the support of many in the community, it is not a requirement of her job to support and nurture the success and inclusion of Black Americans in the specific ways that that organization prescribes.

You don't get to decide what other people find acceptable in their leadership. Would a department chair be able to operate effectively if he was a vocal holocaust denier? If the director of my kid's day care was always posting about how George Soros was operating a conspiracy against America, I wouldn't be ok with that. If enough other people felt the same way, they'd probably be fired.

But as  Wahoo said,
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 09:48:44 PM
Be honest, how would you have reacted if Principal Riley were fired for supporting BLM?  There are places in America that would like to see that happen to BLM supporters .

Would you be as sanguine about that situation?

Sanguine? No, I'd probably disagree with it, although it would depend on what was said. Even if the move was popular in the local community, there might be a lot of blowback. Again, there isn't some clear rule about what exactly is and isn't considered acceptable, nor is there any way to make one. I don't think the principals statement was akin to posting "black lives matter" and I think it betrays real ignorance, obviously there are various people on here who disagree.

From a legal standpoint, courts have mostly taken this view too, rather than trying to find some consistent standard. Public employees' speech is protected, in most cases, if they are commenting on matters of public concern. However, courts have held that speech is only protected when "the interest of the employee as a citizen, in commenting on matters of public concern, outweighs the employer's interest in promoting the efficiency of the public services it performs through its employees."
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 08:44:48 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 08:25:01 AM
Come on, kids.  That is not what they are saying.  I highlighted everything and underlined further to make sure the context is clear.  You are the ones cherry-picking and taking out of context.

Academics, of all people, should not do that.


I said:

Quote from: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 05:01:05 AM
Quote
What We Believe (https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/)

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement


You highlighted the part after this, but not this. What is the "nuclear family structure requirement", and why is it inherently "Western"? And what does it mean to "disrupt" the "requirement"? If most people drink coffee for breakfast, I doubt many people would call opening a tea shop "disruptive". Recognizing alternatives isn't disruptive by nature; it's only disruptive when there's some effort to undermine.

You haven't answered the question.

I grew up in the 60's in a single parent family, and there are probably others older than me here who did as well. We didn't get sent to internment camps, we didn't have to wear a scarlet letter, we weren't denied access to school, so I say again:

What is the "nuclear family structure requirement"?
Who requires it and for what?

Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 08:47:00 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 08:44:48 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 08:25:01 AM
Come on, kids.  That is not what they are saying.  I highlighted everything and underlined further to make sure the context is clear.  You are the ones cherry-picking and taking out of context.

Academics, of all people, should not do that.


I said:

Quote from: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 05:01:05 AM
Quote
What We Believe (https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/)

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement


You highlighted the part after this, but not this. What is the "nuclear family structure requirement", and why is it inherently "Western"? And what does it mean to "disrupt" the "requirement"? If most people drink coffee for breakfast, I doubt many people would call opening a tea shop "disruptive". Recognizing alternatives isn't disruptive by nature; it's only disruptive when there's some effort to undermine.

You haven't answered the question.

I grew up in the 60's in a single parent family, and there are probably others older than me here who did as well. We didn't get sent to internment camps, we didn't have to wear a scarlet letter, we weren't denied access to school, so I say again:

What is the "nuclear family structure requirement"?
Who requires it and for what?

I usually don't read your posts.

Look up the term "cavil" and for why.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 08:49:54 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 08:47:00 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 08:44:48 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 08:25:01 AM
Come on, kids.  That is not what they are saying.  I highlighted everything and underlined further to make sure the context is clear.  You are the ones cherry-picking and taking out of context.

Academics, of all people, should not do that.


I said:

Quote from: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 05:01:05 AM
Quote
What We Believe (https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/)

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement


You highlighted the part after this, but not this. What is the "nuclear family structure requirement", and why is it inherently "Western"? And what does it mean to "disrupt" the "requirement"? If most people drink coffee for breakfast, I doubt many people would call opening a tea shop "disruptive". Recognizing alternatives isn't disruptive by nature; it's only disruptive when there's some effort to undermine.

You haven't answered the question.

I grew up in the 60's in a single parent family, and there are probably others older than me here who did as well. We didn't get sent to internment camps, we didn't have to wear a scarlet letter, we weren't denied access to school, so I say again:

What is the "nuclear family structure requirement"?
Who requires it and for what?

I usually don't read your posts.

Look up the term "cavil" and for why.

Look up the term "sidestep".
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 09:06:50 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 08:49:54 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 08:47:00 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 08:44:48 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 08:25:01 AM
Come on, kids.  That is not what they are saying.  I highlighted everything and underlined further to make sure the context is clear.  You are the ones cherry-picking and taking out of context.

Academics, of all people, should not do that.


I said:

Quote from: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 05:01:05 AM
Quote
What We Believe (https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/)

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement


You highlighted the part after this, but not this. What is the "nuclear family structure requirement", and why is it inherently "Western"? And what does it mean to "disrupt" the "requirement"? If most people drink coffee for breakfast, I doubt many people would call opening a tea shop "disruptive". Recognizing alternatives isn't disruptive by nature; it's only disruptive when there's some effort to undermine.

You haven't answered the question.

I grew up in the 60's in a single parent family, and there are probably others older than me here who did as well. We didn't get sent to internment camps, we didn't have to wear a scarlet letter, we weren't denied access to school, so I say again:

What is the "nuclear family structure requirement"?
Who requires it and for what?

I usually don't read your posts.

Look up the term "cavil" and for why.

Look up the term "sidestep".

Well, the people to ask are all at BLM.

But I think BLM is simply trying to be inclusive of people not in a traditional family.  Yes, family structure is a problem for black families, but shaming people for that does nothing good.  Furthermore, if you are capable of reading, you will see that they are extending the "family" to the community, a concept meant to support those people not in a nuclear family (a concept they apparently associate with "Western" hegemony which has not always been kind to black communities) and meant to consolidate all families, no matter their structure.

Now, you should have been able to figure that out on your own.  Apparently you were not able to.

Instead you didn't, you didn't want to, you just wanted to have a typical little Mashsnit, and that's why I generally ignore you.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 09:21:49 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 09:06:50 AM

But I think BLM is simply trying to be inclusive of people not in a traditional family.  Yes, family structure is a problem for black families, but shaming people for that does nothing good.  Furthermore, if you are capable of reading, you will see that they are extending the "family" to the community, a concept meant to support those people not in a nuclear family (a concept they apparently associate with "Western" hegemony which has not always been kind to black communities) and meant to consolidate all families, no matter their structure.

The incredible irony here is that is precisely "Western" countries that are most accepting of non-nuclear families; i.e. same-sex marriages, single parent families, common-law situations, etc. These are all much more problematic in non-Western  countries. (For example: Where are the countries people flee because of persecution for being gay? Hint: NOT the ones most people would associate with being the most "Western".)

Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 09:51:15 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 09:21:49 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 09:06:50 AM

But I think BLM is simply trying to be inclusive of people not in a traditional family.  Yes, family structure is a problem for black families, but shaming people for that does nothing good.  Furthermore, if you are capable of reading, you will see that they are extending the "family" to the community, a concept meant to support those people not in a nuclear family (a concept they apparently associate with "Western" hegemony which has not always been kind to black communities) and meant to consolidate all families, no matter their structure.

The incredible irony here is that is precisely "Western" countries that are most accepting of non-nuclear families; i.e. same-sex marriages, single parent families, common-law situations, etc. These are all much more problematic in non-Western  countries. (For example: Where are the countries people flee because of persecution for being gay? Hint: NOT the ones most people would associate with being the most "Western".)

Cavil, Marshy.  Cavil.

The perspective BLM is espousing is not the one you are taking issue with.  The experience of many African-Americans with the Western world is problematic----acknowledge that.  Genuine conservatism has many good arguments.  Cherry-picking, finger-wagging, misinterpreting, and caviling have none.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 11:15:59 AM
QuoteBut I think BLM is simply trying to be inclusive of people not in a traditional family.  Yes, family structure is a problem for black families, but shaming people for that does nothing good. 

I don't know for sure that it would or that it wouldn't. Who's shaming them? I don't see anyone doing it.
Instead of shaming people for being a flop at keeping a family together, there could be much more discussion about how the family units helps black lives. There could be less emulation of black hip hop criminal entertainers by white entertainers and fewer white people buying their recordings.
But then again if Black people are already voting democratic, that's all some people want from them.
George Floyd T-shirts and other merchandise are selling, BTW.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 12:44:07 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 11:15:59 AM
QuoteBut I think BLM is simply trying to be inclusive of people not in a traditional family.  Yes, family structure is a problem for black families, but shaming people for that does nothing good. 

I don't know for sure that it would or that it wouldn't. Who's shaming them? I don't see anyone doing it.
Instead of shaming people for being a flop at keeping a family together, there could be much more discussion about how the family units helps black lives. There could be less emulation of black hip hop criminal entertainers by white entertainers and fewer white people buying their recordings.
But then again if Black people are already voting democratic, that's all some people want from them.
George Floyd T-shirts and other merchandise are selling, BTW.

You may not have meant it, but your own comments imply shame.  Rightly or wrongly, who would not feel demoralized, embarrassed, ashamed, or marginalized when told that their single-parent household is part of the problem in the community?  I think this is exactly what BLM was trying to avoid.  As the kids say, it is what it is. People outside the community, people (sometimes) with the best intentions (often white), have yet another sling-and-arrow aimed at black families.  BLM wants to include the non-trad family.  BLM may actually want to redefine the notion of family.  I see nothing to suggest BLM wants to dissolve the family unit.  Most of the language is language of inclusion for all sorts of people, whites included.

None of which alters your misinterpretation of what BLM was actually saying.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 12:58:48 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 12:44:07 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 11:15:59 AM
QuoteBut I think BLM is simply trying to be inclusive of people not in a traditional family.  Yes, family structure is a problem for black families, but shaming people for that does nothing good. 

I don't know for sure that it would or that it wouldn't. Who's shaming them? I don't see anyone doing it.
Instead of shaming people for being a flop at keeping a family together, there could be much more discussion about how the family units helps black lives. There could be less emulation of black hip hop criminal entertainers by white entertainers and fewer white people buying their recordings.
But then again if Black people are already voting democratic, that's all some people want from them.
George Floyd T-shirts and other merchandise are selling, BTW.

You may not have meant it, but your own comments imply shame.  Rightly or wrongly, who would not feel demoralized, embarrassed, ashamed, or marginalized when told that their single-parent household is part of the problem in the community? 

Suppose a student who is struggling in a course comes to the instructor for help. The instructor points out that the difficulty is due to the fact that the student did not submit assignments 2 and 3, and since the material is cumulative, not understanding that material will make the later material much harder.

Is that "shaming"?

The student may have missed those assignments due to illness, or to family emergencies, or to being hung over. But whatever the reason, it doesn't change the turth of the instructor's comment. Whatever help the instructor is able to give will not negate the truth of the way that missing those assignments has made the student's situation difficult, and if the student is going to catch up, it will essentially require returning to the missed material and filling in that gap.


In our current society, the trend is to call any inconvenient truth "shaming" or "harm" unless it somehow implies that people have absolutely no agency, and so these circumstances are entirely the fault of someone else, or even better, "the system". Unfortunately, helping people with anxiety involves exactly the opposite; i.e. teaching them how they have agency and can take action to change their circumstances.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 01:07:49 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 12:44:07 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 11:15:59 AM
QuoteBut I think BLM is simply trying to be inclusive of people not in a traditional family.  Yes, family structure is a problem for black families, but shaming people for that does nothing good. 

I don't know for sure that it would or that it wouldn't. Who's shaming them? I don't see anyone doing it.
Instead of shaming people for being a flop at keeping a family together, there could be much more discussion about how the family units helps black lives. There could be less emulation of black hip hop criminal entertainers by white entertainers and fewer white people buying their recordings.
But then again if Black people are already voting democratic, that's all some people want from them.
George Floyd T-shirts and other merchandise are selling, BTW.

You may not have meant it, but your own comments imply shame. Rightly or wrongly, who would not feel demoralized, embarrassed, ashamed, or marginalized when told that their single-parent household is part of the problem in the community?  I think this is exactly what BLM was trying to avoid.  As the kids say, it is what it is. People outside the community, people (sometimes) with the best intentions (often white), have yet another sling-and-arrow aimed at black families.  BLM wants to include the non-trad family.  BLM may actually want to redefine the notion of family.  I see nothing to suggest BLM wants to dissolve the family unit.  Most of the language is language of inclusion for all sorts of people, whites included.

None of which alters your misinterpretation of what BLM was actually saying.

We both said it's a problem. You did, and I agreed. But the problem, more specifically, is too many living irresponsible lives and the democratic party exploiting them for votes.
Including the non-trad family could mean two parents of the same gender in a romantic relationship with each other who both relate to the children as parents. Fine. To me that speaks of stability and responsibility. It could could mean a divorced couple, they tried but couldn't make it together, only one lives with the children, but both either live with them or visit regularly, and both provide financial support and guidance and a decent role model. In no way do these healthy scenarios compare to the George Floyds of the world (who, I'm pretty sure, are not universally admired by American Blacks, especially those with drug dealers and home invaders in their vicinity) who father a bunch of kids with different women, disappear and in their late forties are milling around downtown at ten o'clock at night passing phony money and probably planning their next drug score. And sure, it's terrible what happened to him. But if you take Derek Chauvin and that other thug policemen out of the picture, and George Floyd is still with us, he's still a loss at life. truth be told.
Shaming is how we got Americans to stop smoking cigarettes.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 01:18:53 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 01:07:49 PM
Including the non-trad family could mean two parents of the same gender in a romantic relationship with each other who both relate to the children as parents. Fine. To me that speaks of stability and responsibility. It could could mean a divorced couple, they tried but couldn't make it together, only one lives with the children, but both either live with them or visit regularly, and both provide financial support and guidance and a decent role model. In no way do these healthy scenarios compare to the George Floyds of the world (who, I'm pretty sure, are not universally admired by American Blacks, especially those with drug dealers and home invaders in their vicinity) who father a bunch of kids with different women, disappear and in their late forties are milling around downtown at ten o'clock at night passing phony money and probably planning their next drug score. And sure, it's terrible what happened to him. But if you take Derek Chauvin and that other thug policemen out of the picture, and George Floyd is still with us, he's still a loss at life. truth be told.
Shaming is how we got Americans to stop smoking cigarettes.

I have no idea why you are saying these sorts of things.  What is the point? 
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 01:33:25 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 01:18:53 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 01:07:49 PM
Including the non-trad family could mean two parents of the same gender in a romantic relationship with each other who both relate to the children as parents. Fine. To me that speaks of stability and responsibility. It could could mean a divorced couple, they tried but couldn't make it together, only one lives with the children, but both either live with them or visit regularly, and both provide financial support and guidance and a decent role model. In no way do these healthy scenarios compare to the George Floyds of the world (who, I'm pretty sure, are not universally admired by American Blacks, especially those with drug dealers and home invaders in their vicinity) who father a bunch of kids with different women, disappear and in their late forties are milling around downtown at ten o'clock at night passing phony money and probably planning their next drug score. And sure, it's terrible what happened to him. But if you take Derek Chauvin and that other thug policemen out of the picture, and George Floyd is still with us, he's still a loss at life. truth be told.
Shaming is how we got Americans to stop smoking cigarettes.

I have no idea why you are saying these sorts of things.  What is the point?

Personal responsibility has to be at least one piece of the conversation. You can't just say 'aw...that's shaming.' that's dismissive.
Actually, it already is. My responsibility, for instance. I'm being asked to overhaul my teaching so that it is non-racist. I would like to know what we may expect from the members of Black Lives Matter. As long as we're working together.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 01:53:16 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 12:58:48 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 12:44:07 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 11:15:59 AM
QuoteBut I think BLM is simply trying to be inclusive of people not in a traditional family.  Yes, family structure is a problem for black families, but shaming people for that does nothing good. 

I don't know for sure that it would or that it wouldn't. Who's shaming them? I don't see anyone doing it.
Instead of shaming people for being a flop at keeping a family together, there could be much more discussion about how the family units helps black lives. There could be less emulation of black hip hop criminal entertainers by white entertainers and fewer white people buying their recordings.
But then again if Black people are already voting democratic, that's all some people want from them.
George Floyd T-shirts and other merchandise are selling, BTW.

You may not have meant it, but your own comments imply shame.  Rightly or wrongly, who would not feel demoralized, embarrassed, ashamed, or marginalized when told that their single-parent household is part of the problem in the community? 

Suppose a student who is struggling in a course comes to the instructor for help. The instructor points out that the difficulty is due to the fact that the student did not submit assignments 2 and 3, and since the material is cumulative, not understanding that material will make the later material much harder.

Is that "shaming"?

The student may have missed those assignments due to illness, or to family emergencies, or to being hung over. But whatever the reason, it doesn't change the turth of the instructor's comment. Whatever help the instructor is able to give will not negate the truth of the way that missing those assignments has made the student's situation difficult, and if the student is going to catch up, it will essentially require returning to the missed material and filling in that gap.


In our current society, the trend is to call any inconvenient truth "shaming" or "harm" unless it somehow implies that people have absolutely no agency, and so these circumstances are entirely the fault of someone else, or even better, "the system". Unfortunately, helping people with anxiety involves exactly the opposite; i.e. teaching them how they have agency and can take action to change their circumstances.

Calling white people racist is the shaming orgy of our time.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 02:28:48 PM
Gone off the rails, boys...
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: secundem_artem on July 29, 2020, 03:38:54 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 02:28:48 PM
Gone off the rails, boys...

Indeed. 

And you're one of the engineers.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 04:18:40 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 29, 2020, 03:38:54 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 02:28:48 PM
Gone off the rails, boys...

Indeed. 

And you're one of the engineers.

Agreed.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 09:03:04 PM
Adjunct faculty are more conservative than intentional faculty.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: kaysixteen on July 29, 2020, 09:59:24 PM
Well I confess I did not read the article that clearly to really read what exactly the Vermont principal actually said, only the gist of it.   I am not sure I would have sought her dismissal for such remarks, but the point remains that a public school principal is not a teacher.  She is the leader of a public institution, like the police chief or head of the county public health dept.   She should learn to use extreme discretion in her public remarks, all the more so in the age of the internet.  The public must be able to have confidence that people given public leadership positions in their community are not biased, and not so out of step with the mainstream values of *their communities* that people holding those views would not enjoy the confidence of the majority of the members thereof.  This is sort of like the classic Potter Stewart definition of porn/ obscenity-- I do not know exactly how to describe it but I know what it is when I see it.  Point is, that we would probably *all* agree that there would be certain public remarks, remarks that would be legal, would not be advocating criminal behavior, etc, that would nonetheless be sufficiently beyond the pale for a public school head to post on the net, such that she should lose her job for making them, although I suspect many of us would likely disagree with exactly what those comments would encompass.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: marshwiggle on July 30, 2020, 06:34:07 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 29, 2020, 09:59:24 PM
Point is, that we would probably *all* agree that there would be certain public remarks, remarks that would be legal, would not be advocating criminal behavior, etc, that would nonetheless be sufficiently beyond the pale for a public school head to post on the net, such that she should lose her job for making them, although I suspect many of us would likely disagree with exactly what those comments would encompass.

What this means is that the most "acceptable" candidates for these offices will essentially be automatons, who have no presence on social media, are not members of any organizations, and who reveal nothing of their personal lives, interests, or view on basically anything.

In other words, the kinds of peole that in movies turn out to be spies or serial killers because their offices, homes, etc. are totally devoid of any personal cues.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: research_prof on July 30, 2020, 07:18:19 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 30, 2020, 06:34:07 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 29, 2020, 09:59:24 PM
Point is, that we would probably *all* agree that there would be certain public remarks, remarks that would be legal, would not be advocating criminal behavior, etc, that would nonetheless be sufficiently beyond the pale for a public school head to post on the net, such that she should lose her job for making them, although I suspect many of us would likely disagree with exactly what those comments would encompass.

What this means is that the most "acceptable" candidates for these offices will essentially be automatons, who have no presence on social media, are not members of any organizations, and who reveal nothing of their personal lives, interests, or view on basically anything.

In other words, the kinds of peole that in movies turn out to be spies or serial killers because their offices, homes, etc. are totally devoid of any personal cues.

That's a sad realization. Since I started working for a university, I have stopped sharing *anything* that has to do with my personal life on social media. Why? Because I am scared that if I post something that others do not like (for whatever reason), the university will fire me. I even deleted things I had posted in the past and turned all my social media accounts to private.

In other words, I have been feeling that I am the b***h of the university that employs me. I have to do whatever they ask me to, otherwise, I will get fired in a blink of an eye. And this will probably put a stigma on me for the rest of my career.

Let me give you a simple example: you post something that others perceive as controversial, somebody writes an article about you and how "racist", "ignorant", "inconsiderate" (or whatever else you can imagine) you are on the Internet, the article shows up on Google. That's it. You are screwed. For how long? Probably for the rest of your life... Not to mention that I was afraid to take legal actions in the past in a case that I probably should have because the records would probably show up on Google and this would put another stigma on me (and this one I have seen it coming up with candidates for faculty jobs in the past, since they are believed to be "trouble makers"...).
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: research_prof on July 30, 2020, 07:19:34 AM
[please ignore--misclick]
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 30, 2020, 07:27:58 AM
Quote from: research_prof on July 30, 2020, 07:18:19 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 30, 2020, 06:34:07 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 29, 2020, 09:59:24 PM
Point is, that we would probably *all* agree that there would be certain public remarks, remarks that would be legal, would not be advocating criminal behavior, etc, that would nonetheless be sufficiently beyond the pale for a public school head to post on the net, such that she should lose her job for making them, although I suspect many of us would likely disagree with exactly what those comments would encompass.

What this means is that the most "acceptable" candidates for these offices will essentially be automatons, who have no presence on social media, are not members of any organizations, and who reveal nothing of their personal lives, interests, or view on basically anything.

In other words, the kinds of peole that in movies turn out to be spies or serial killers because their offices, homes, etc. are totally devoid of any personal cues.

That's a sad realization. Since I started working for a university, I have stopped sharing *anything* that has to do with my personal life on social media. Why? Because I am scared that if I post something that others do not like (for whatever reason), the university will fire me. I even deleted things I had posted in the past and turned all my social media accounts to private.

In other words, I have been feeling that I am the b***h of the university that employs me. I have to do whatever they ask me to, otherwise, I will get fired in a blink of an eye. And this will probably put a stigma on me for the rest of my career.

Let me give you a simple example: you post something that others perceive as controversial, somebody writes an article about you and how "racist", "ignorant", "inconsiderate" (or whatever else you can imagine) you are on the Internet, the article shows up on Google. That's it. You are screwed. For how long? Probably for the rest of your life... Not to mention that I was afraid to take legal actions in the past in a case that I probably should have because the records would probably show up on Google and this would put another stigma on me (and this one I have seen it coming up with candidates for faculty jobs in the past, since they are believed to be "trouble makers"...).

In theory I understand the restrictions on public figureheads and people in authority.  We have a problem if we have a sheriff who comes out and says, "We're going to round up all the [marginalized whatever] and have them shot."  That would be scary.

The flip-side is that myself, Mahoganny, Marshy, and apl68 could all lose our jobs if somehow our identities were to be hacked on this website simply because we have opinions.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: research_prof on July 30, 2020, 07:34:41 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 30, 2020, 07:27:58 AM
Quote from: research_prof on July 30, 2020, 07:18:19 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 30, 2020, 06:34:07 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 29, 2020, 09:59:24 PM
Point is, that we would probably *all* agree that there would be certain public remarks, remarks that would be legal, would not be advocating criminal behavior, etc, that would nonetheless be sufficiently beyond the pale for a public school head to post on the net, such that she should lose her job for making them, although I suspect many of us would likely disagree with exactly what those comments would encompass.

What this means is that the most "acceptable" candidates for these offices will essentially be automatons, who have no presence on social media, are not members of any organizations, and who reveal nothing of their personal lives, interests, or view on basically anything.

In other words, the kinds of peole that in movies turn out to be spies or serial killers because their offices, homes, etc. are totally devoid of any personal cues.

That's a sad realization. Since I started working for a university, I have stopped sharing *anything* that has to do with my personal life on social media. Why? Because I am scared that if I post something that others do not like (for whatever reason), the university will fire me. I even deleted things I had posted in the past and turned all my social media accounts to private.

In other words, I have been feeling that I am the b***h of the university that employs me. I have to do whatever they ask me to, otherwise, I will get fired in a blink of an eye. And this will probably put a stigma on me for the rest of my career.

Let me give you a simple example: you post something that others perceive as controversial, somebody writes an article about you and how "racist", "ignorant", "inconsiderate" (or whatever else you can imagine) you are on the Internet, the article shows up on Google. That's it. You are screwed. For how long? Probably for the rest of your life... Not to mention that I was afraid to take legal actions in the past in a case that I probably should have because the records would probably show up on Google and this would put another stigma on me (and this one I have seen it coming up with candidates for faculty jobs in the past, since they are believed to be "trouble makers"...).

In theory I understand the restrictions on public figureheads and people in authority.  We have a problem if we have a sheriff who comes out and says, "We're going to round up all the [marginalized whatever] and have them shot."  That would be scary.

The flip-side is that myself, Mahoganny, Marshy, and apl68 could all lose our jobs if somehow our identities were to be hacked on this website simply because we have opinions.

Right. And I do not want to sound alarming, but things like that have happened in the past. I agree that people should be able to express their opinion freely (that's what democracy is about), unless they are going to say something really offensive (and yes, I know, defining what is offensive and what is not nowadays is another challenge).

But my tactic (and what I have learned over the years of seeing people losing their jobs and having their lives ruined in a blink of an eye for posting something that others perceived as controversial) is to keep my opinion to myself. And I will continue doing so.. Having no opinion is the new normal (at least for now and for the years to come).
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: marshwiggle on July 30, 2020, 07:43:09 AM
Quote from: research_prof on July 30, 2020, 07:34:41 AM

But my tactic (and what I have learned over the years of seeing people losing their jobs and having their lives ruined in a blink of an eye for posting something that others perceived as controversial) is to keep my opinion to myself. And I will continue doing so.. Having no opinion is the new normal (at least for now and for the years to come).

The problem here is the commonly stated idea that "silence is part of the problem". In other words, it's not enough to not be a racist, you have to be "anti-racist". What does that mean? Well, it means virtue-signalling at every opportunity. That's just one example. I just saw a headline that some restaurant owner burned the table used by Epstein and Weinstein. If that isn't a ridiculous level of posturing I don't know what is. (Even if anyone cared, who would even know which table they used???)

Among many vocal elements in society, "no opinion" will be equated with holding the "wrong" opinion automatically.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: research_prof on July 30, 2020, 07:46:34 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 30, 2020, 07:43:09 AM
Quote from: research_prof on July 30, 2020, 07:34:41 AM

But my tactic (and what I have learned over the years of seeing people losing their jobs and having their lives ruined in a blink of an eye for posting something that others perceived as controversial) is to keep my opinion to myself. And I will continue doing so.. Having no opinion is the new normal (at least for now and for the years to come).

The problem here is the commonly stated idea that "silence is part of the problem". In other words, it's not enough to not be a racist, you have to be "anti-racist". What does that mean? Well, it means virtue-signalling at every opportunity. That's just one example. I just saw a headline that some restaurant owner burned the table used by Epstein and Weinstein. If that isn't a ridiculous level of posturing I don't know what is. (Even if anyone cared, who would even know which table they used???)

Among many vocal elements in society, "no opinion" will be equated with holding the "wrong" opinion automatically.

Life is all about statistics and chances after all. If you have no opinion, people cannot prove that you are on the wrong side of things. They can still blame you, but if you are not vocal, chances are that nobody will accuse you of being on the wrong side of things. The problem is when you do or say something (which might even be totally unrelated to the accusation) and this triggers people to accuse you of being on the wrong side of things.

I mean, look: I have been in a situation where people (of a certain political ideology--you can probably guess which one) were telling me in my face that I indoctrinate their kids and that I am a state employee that receives a fat paycheck from their taxes and that I have not put a day of full work in my life. Can you imagine what would have happened if I had reacted to all that?
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 30, 2020, 08:33:07 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 30, 2020, 07:43:09 AM
Quote from: research_prof on July 30, 2020, 07:34:41 AM

But my tactic (and what I have learned over the years of seeing people losing their jobs and having their lives ruined in a blink of an eye for posting something that others perceived as controversial) is to keep my opinion to myself. And I will continue doing so.. Having no opinion is the new normal (at least for now and for the years to come).

The problem here is the commonly stated idea that "silence is part of the problem". In other words, it's not enough to not be a racist, you have to be "anti-racist". What does that mean? Well, it means virtue-signalling at every opportunity. That's just one example. I just saw a headline that some restaurant owner burned the table used by Epstein and Weinstein. If that isn't a ridiculous level of posturing I don't know what is. (Even if anyone cared, who would even know which table they used???)

Among many vocal elements in society, "no opinion" will be equated with holding the "wrong" opinion automatically.

Regarding silence, the person who doesn't confess to white racism original sin will come to be looked upon as like the way my grandparents regarded Americans who didn't go to church. They may not be a clear and present danger, but they aren't doing what they should be doing to give their moral selves some desperately needed improvement. Together, they represent a sad moral failing of our society.
If you say it's a religion, people might think you're overreacting. On the other hand the antiracism crowd gets to go places religion can't. Like your course syllabus.
And the antiracism movement is a dogma that is growing all the time. New kinds of racism are being found and added to the list. Only owned by whites, by definition.
Explained here: https://www.startribune.com/counterpoint-i-am-a-racist-so-is-katherine-kersten/571937132/?refresh=true

Some will just tell the anti-racism webinar training team what they want to hear just to be left alone, and then commiserate with friends in private. A part of me says you should. You know, 'I takes dat Gospel whenever it's possible, but with a grain of salt.'
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: bento on July 30, 2020, 10:08:42 AM
Quote from: writingprof on July 24, 2020, 01:03:02 PM
Women's Studies is indeed nonessential.  We lived without that field of academic inquiry for almost all of human history.  Please don't kill me for agreeing with this guy.

Here are some other things we've lived without for almost all of human history:  roads, tools, farming, medical science, anesthesia, disinfectants, all of academia, all of industry, architecture, transportation other than walking.

Your criterion of importance is flawed.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 30, 2020, 10:09:22 AM
Is it possible for people to have moderate, empathetic,and logical opinions?

Mahagonny speaks truth from my experience (I've been through a number of sensitivity training sessions), but M, my brother, racism in America has been a largely white phenomenon.  We really can't deny that.  It is reasonable to discuss "white privilege" as an empirically provable reality.  The 16th through the 20th centuries are rife with European colonialism, even if, yes, we fully acknowledge China and Japan and, sure, parts of African and what-have-you as also displaying these same very human tendencies.  That doesn't legitimize what goes on here.  We do need to acknowledge what BLM says, even if some members turn to zealotry.

One could see the extremist opinions of BLM as a counterpoint to the extremist beliefs of the Rush Limbaughs and Sean Hannitys of the world, not to mention the Aryan Cowboys who try to incite race riots during peaceful protests...and to yourself, my friend.  You've got very lopsided, strident views.  I've got some insight into your character, I think, and if the universe were reversed, I wonder how balanced you would be about race and stereotypes if you and I were in historically oppressed minorities.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: marshwiggle on July 30, 2020, 11:26:07 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 30, 2020, 10:09:22 AM

One could see the extremist opinions of BLM as a counterpoint to the extremist beliefs of the Rush Limbaughs and Sean Hannitys of the world, not to mention the Aryan Cowboys who try to incite race riots during peaceful protests...and to yourself, my friend. You've got very lopsided, strident views.  I've got some insight into your character, I think, and if the universe were reversed, I wonder how balanced you would be about race and stereotypes if you and I were in historically oppressed minorities.

Assuming this is directed at me, I'm curious what "strident" views I've expressed. And what insight that has given into my character.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 30, 2020, 12:04:02 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 30, 2020, 11:26:07 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 30, 2020, 10:09:22 AM

One could see the extremist opinions of BLM as a counterpoint to the extremist beliefs of the Rush Limbaughs and Sean Hannitys of the world, not to mention the Aryan Cowboys who try to incite race riots during peaceful protests...and to yourself, my friend. You've got very lopsided, strident views.  I've got some insight into your character, I think, and if the universe were reversed, I wonder how balanced you would be about race and stereotypes if you and I were in historically oppressed minorities.

Assuming this is directed at me, I'm curious what "strident" views I've expressed. And what insight that has given into my character.

No I believe our friend was addressing me.
Wahoo -- well, OK; obvious to me, you're still trying to win the argument. I think there are Black Americans who have better answers than the BLM crew, for example Glenn Loury, John McWhorter.
Re: my character. Thanks for your candor. I will give it some thought. Cheers.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 30, 2020, 12:23:37 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 30, 2020, 12:04:02 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 30, 2020, 11:26:07 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 30, 2020, 10:09:22 AM

One could see the extremist opinions of BLM as a counterpoint to the extremist beliefs of the Rush Limbaughs and Sean Hannitys of the world, not to mention the Aryan Cowboys who try to incite race riots during peaceful protests...and to yourself, my friend. You've got very lopsided, strident views.  I've got some insight into your character, I think, and if the universe were reversed, I wonder how balanced you would be about race and stereotypes if you and I were in historically oppressed minorities.

Assuming this is directed at me, I'm curious what "strident" views I've expressed. And what insight that has given into my character.

No I believe our friend was addressing me.
Wahoo -- well, OK; obvious to me, you're still trying to win the argument. I think there are Black Americans who have better answers than the BLM crew, for example Glenn Loury, John McWhorter.
Re: my character. Thanks for your candor. I will give it some thought. Cheers.

Not trying to "win" anything. 

Sure, there may be people who have better answers than BLM, but it seems to me BLM is a sectarian response to an intemperate zeitgeist anyway, a hardcore reaction because so little seems to change.  What do we expect to have happen when we are always screaming at each other!? 

I am all for Mike Adams expressing his opinion outside work, no matter how bassawkward they are.  And the courts agreed (although if one wants an encyclopedia example of a Pyrrhic victory, he's it).  But such rhetoric does absolutely no good.  Everything Mike Adams stood for became more obdurate and everything Mike Adams stood against got stronger with every column he wrote.  His suicide made everything worse in both regards.

BLM has a valid point of view, much of which is worthy, even if it sometimes veers into zealotry----and that is all I am trying to get at.  There is no reason to denigrate a murder victim, even if he was not about to win any civic awards.  That does nothing to alter the issues we face and, frankly, it makes you sound bad.

I have every reason to believe your character is excellent.  Your expression is simply harsh for someone with an excellent character.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: marshwiggle on July 30, 2020, 12:47:07 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 30, 2020, 12:23:37 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 30, 2020, 12:04:02 PM

No I believe our friend was addressing me.
Wahoo -- well, OK; obvious to me, you're still trying to win the argument. I think there are Black Americans who have better answers than the BLM crew, for example Glenn Loury, John McWhorter.
Re: my character. Thanks for your candor. I will give it some thought. Cheers.


BLM has a valid point of view, much of which is worthy, even if it sometimes veers into zealotry----

And that is why many people cannot support it. It's hard to see how the riots are going to contribute to any useful progress. (Peaceful protests indeed may, but violence and property damage won't.)

Quote

and that is all I am trying to get at.  There is no reason to denigrate a murder victim, even if he was not about to win any civic awards.  That does nothing to alter the issues we face and, frankly, it makes you sound bad.

I have every reason to believe your character is excellent.  Your expression is simply harsh for someone with an excellent character.

I can't recall Mahagonny saying anything in this conversation that I would consider "harsh". Pointing out facts about George Floyd's criminal history merely illustrated that, had he not been murdered, his interaction with the police would have been entirely unremarkable. And he wouldn't have wound up on T-shirts.

To add to Mahagonny's commentators, I'd include Coleman Hughes and Ayishat Akanbi.

Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: kaysixteen on July 30, 2020, 06:40:45 PM
Ok, let's try this another way. 

Principal X: "I believe that blacks are mentally inferior to whites, and as such, should not be held to the same academic standards we hold white students to."

Professor Y: "I believe that blacks are mentally inferior to whites, and as such, probably are only in my university owing to illicit affirmative action preferences, and therefore I can treat them with disdain and disrespect."

Public bureaucrat Z: "I believe homosexuals are wicked sinners bound for hell-- therefore I shall not treat them with respect and quick service courtesy."

Now imagine that these public officials posted these remarks, under their own names (so there'd be no way for them to deny that they themselves had indeed said these things) on social media.   Anyone want to say that any of these three folks should retain their public positions, ostensibly  in the name of 'freedom of speech', or some other such grounds?
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: research_prof on July 30, 2020, 06:59:25 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 30, 2020, 06:40:45 PM
Ok, let's try this another way. 

Principal X: "I believe that blacks are mentally inferior to whites, and as such, should not be held to the same academic standards we hold white students to."

Professor Y: "I believe that blacks are mentally inferior to whites, and as such, probably are only in my university owing to illicit affirmative action preferences, and therefore I can treat them with disdain and disrespect."

Public bureaucrat Z: "I believe homosexuals are wicked sinners bound for hell-- therefore I shall not treat them with respect and quick service courtesy."

Now imagine that these public officials posted these remarks, under their own names (so there'd be no way for them to deny that they themselves had indeed said these things) on social media.   Anyone want to say that any of these three folks should retain their public positions, ostensibly  in the name of 'freedom of speech', or some other such grounds?

That is definitely too much and absolutely NOT acceptable...

But how about that?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/dean-of-massachusetts-nursing-school-fired-after-saying-everyones-life-matters
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 30, 2020, 07:48:15 PM
Quote from: research_prof on July 30, 2020, 06:59:25 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 30, 2020, 06:40:45 PM
Ok, let's try this another way. 

Principal X: "I believe that blacks are mentally inferior to whites, and as such, should not be held to the same academic standards we hold white students to."

Professor Y: "I believe that blacks are mentally inferior to whites, and as such, probably are only in my university owing to illicit affirmative action preferences, and therefore I can treat them with disdain and disrespect."

Public bureaucrat Z: "I believe homosexuals are wicked sinners bound for hell-- therefore I shall not treat them with respect and quick service courtesy."

Now imagine that these public officials posted these remarks, under their own names (so there'd be no way for them to deny that they themselves had indeed said these things) on social media.   Anyone want to say that any of these three folks should retain their public positions, ostensibly  in the name of 'freedom of speech', or some other such grounds?

That is definitely too much and absolutely NOT acceptable...

But how about that?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/dean-of-massachusetts-nursing-school-fired-after-saying-everyones-life-matters

Ya'know Kay, I have to respectfully disagree.  The reductio ad absurdum has its place but does not prove anything.

If the teachers and administrators say these horrendous things above in their private lives and yet preform their professional duties to the standards we expect then they should be free to say these idiotic things if they want. 

If Public Bureaucrat Z can be shone to treat homosexuals differently on the job, that is something completely different and Z should be fired. 

Likewise, if the other alphabet miscreants act on their beliefs professionally then they should be fired or prosecuted, depending.

There are some reasons:

1.  Freedom is dangerous. Our freedom is dangerous and offensive to many people.  There are plenty who would act on just exactly the sentiments your hypotheticals express above.  These people would silence you and me if they could.  In fact, if people were not capable of speaking up, no matter how unpopular their views, most of the things in your hypotheticals would still be institutional norms.  You can only use those viewpoints as reductio ad absurdum because people had the freedom to speak out against them.

2.   What I've posted before: Do you want to have institutions outside the home telling us what to say and think?  Someone earlier posted the legal distinctions of speech for public figures----and this too I would be against.

3.  If X, Y, and Z say these things they, like Mike Adams, will open themselves up to the vigilante world of hate that is also part of free speech and far more effective.  Adams won his lawsuit against his school.  Limiting his speech legally completely failed.  What brought him down is the freedom of speech that other people used.  Let X, Y, and Z start the fight; let them face the hate they bring upon themselves.

4.  But more than any of these other things, the biggest reason to allow free speech for everyone is research_profs' example above.  Limiting some public a**hat from saying "I believe homosexuals are wicked sinners bound for hell" already puts us on the slippery slope and it is not far to go before we are firing people for saying " I despair for our future as a nation if we do not stand up against violence against anyone. BLACK LIVES MATTER, but also, EVERYONE'S LIFE MATTERS."  You see this problem, right?  You begin limiting people's opinions and you will end up with thought police.  You and I are in danger now.

We cannot stop people from thinking and saying bad things.  Just can't.  You try to stuff them down and you just drive them to FOX news, Breitbart, and the Washington Examiner, which thrives on these headlines.

Where do you think Trump comes in?
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 30, 2020, 08:02:27 PM
Quote from: research_prof on July 30, 2020, 06:59:25 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 30, 2020, 06:40:45 PM
Ok, let's try this another way. 

Principal X: "I believe that blacks are mentally inferior to whites, and as such, should not be held to the same academic standards we hold white students to."

Professor Y: "I believe that blacks are mentally inferior to whites, and as such, probably are only in my university owing to illicit affirmative action preferences, and therefore I can treat them with disdain and disrespect."

Public bureaucrat Z: "I believe homosexuals are wicked sinners bound for hell-- therefore I shall not treat them with respect and quick service courtesy."

Now imagine that these public officials posted these remarks, under their own names (so there'd be no way for them to deny that they themselves had indeed said these things) on social media.   Anyone want to say that any of these three folks should retain their public positions, ostensibly  in the name of 'freedom of speech', or some other such grounds?

That is definitely too much and absolutely NOT acceptable...

But how about that?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/dean-of-massachusetts-nursing-school-fired-after-saying-everyones-life-matters

Well, that's one thing. But as explained in the link I posted upthread, all white people are racist. So the crime is not racism. It's being white.
Acts 3:19
"Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out"

https://www.startribune.com/counterpoint-i-am-a-racist-so-is-katherine-kersten/571937132/

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God," - Ephesians 2:8

Antiracism is a religion. Confess, and hope they don't kick you out.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: research_prof on July 30, 2020, 08:05:02 PM
<ignore>
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 30, 2020, 08:22:27 PM
Quote from: research_prof on July 30, 2020, 08:05:02 PM
Let me take that one step further and twist it even more and please try to take it into account regardless of political views:

https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2020/04/rutgers-prof-stands-by-her-tweets-blaming-trump-supporters-for-coronavirus-deaths.html

Is not that simply hateful against a certain group of (good or bad or smart or stupid) people? I did not see Rutgers taking any action against this professor.

Stupid, awful, mean-spirited person.  She makes all of us academics look insensitive and superior----exactly what the Trump-camp wants.  Stupid, stupid, stupid.  Biden loses voters here.

And yes, it certainly seems like a double-standard.

But if Rutgers does nothing they have done the right thing.  Cooper will regret how she said it.

What's too bad is that she has a good point to make.  She just blew it because of our argument culture.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: research_prof on July 30, 2020, 08:30:30 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 30, 2020, 08:22:27 PM
Quote from: research_prof on July 30, 2020, 08:05:02 PM
Let me take that one step further and twist it even more and please try to take it into account regardless of political views:

https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2020/04/rutgers-prof-stands-by-her-tweets-blaming-trump-supporters-for-coronavirus-deaths.html

Is not that simply hateful against a certain group of (good or bad or smart or stupid) people? I did not see Rutgers taking any action against this professor.

Stupid, awful, mean-spirited person.  She makes all of us academics look insensitive and superior----exactly what the Trump-camp wants.  Stupid, stupid, stupid.  Biden loses voters here.

And yes, it certainly seems like a double-standard.

But if Rutgers does nothing they have done the right thing.  Cooper will regret how she said it.

What's too bad is that she has a good point to make.  She just blew it because of our argument culture.

Again.. By no means I am weighing in in any of the cases I mentioned. I am just trying to present facts. In my humble opinion, the facts show (as I mentioned before) that it is the best not to have an opinion nowadays (or if you have one, just keep it to yourself). The reason is that an opinion expressed publicly can get you in trouble one way or the other.

As I said before: I have been in situations that could have made headlines if I had reacted (as probably any other human being would have done when they get seriously offended to the point of humiliation). The thing that has saved me, and I strongly believe that, is not expressing my opinion. Looking back, I am not regretting it, since this for sure saved my career and probably my life as a whole.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 30, 2020, 08:46:35 PM
Key, what research_prof is saying is what I am talking about when I say we are on a slippery slope of policing what people say and think.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: kaysixteen on July 30, 2020, 09:12:40 PM
I get that we want to avoid slippery slopes and reductiones ad absurda, but we have to take people at their word, that they are prejudiced against people and would not treat them appropriately, and then act accordingly.   This is really little different from voir dire in a murder trial: "Juror candidate X, you said on your blog last week that you 'hate n*ggers', and my client is black.   You are rejected from jury service."
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 30, 2020, 09:18:07 PM
"Conservatives do not care about Black people, she tweeted. "My most cynical negative read of the white supremacists among them is that they welcome this massive winnowing of Black folks in order to slow demographic shifts and shore up political power," she wrote."    _   Cooper

...forgetting that if conservatives had their way there would be no legal abortion, therefore more black Americans.

QuoteWhat's too bad is that she has a good point to make.  She just blew it because of our argument culture.

What?
-
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 30, 2020, 09:24:50 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 30, 2020, 09:12:40 PM
I get that we want to avoid slippery slopes and reductiones ad absurda, but we have to take people at their word, that they are prejudiced against people and would not treat them appropriately, and then act accordingly.   This is really little different from voir dire in a murder trial: "Juror candidate X, you said on your blog last week that you 'hate n*ggers', and my client is black.   You are rejected from jury service."

Again, I have to disagree, mainly because we have apples and oranges here.  You make a good point, but you are not removing someone from a livelihood, you are judging how that person might adjudicate a trial based on your clients' best interests.  There's a difference there.  Jury selection is closer to a job interview than removing someone from employment. 

In the case of X, Y, & Z, and the nursing school dean (and even your jury selection) you are punishing people before they actually do anything.  You are punishing them for 'incorrect ideas.'  Ethically problematic.  Orwellian, in fact.

And my objections are not primarily ethical, they are practical.  If you give people the ability to police what other people say they will abuse the ability----research_profs' nursing dean and research-prof hu-self are examples.  People have a hard time avoiding zealotry in these situations.  We are seeing that.

There is no good answer to this problem, BTW.  It is a conundrum. 
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 30, 2020, 09:27:09 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on July 30, 2020, 09:18:07 PM
"Conservatives do not care about Black people, she tweeted. "My most cynical negative read of the white supremacists among them is that they welcome this massive winnowing of Black folks in order to slow demographic shifts and shore up political power," she wrote."    _   Cooper

...forgetting that if conservatives had their way there would be no legal abortion, therefore more black Americans.

QuoteWhat's too bad is that she has a good point to make.  She just blew it because of our argument culture.

What?
-

Are you confusing articles there?  I was referring to the professor who insulted the Trump voters for not wearing masks, which is a bone-headed, politically motivated move on all parties.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: tuxthepenguin on July 31, 2020, 07:24:06 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 29, 2020, 08:34:10 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on July 29, 2020, 07:40:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on July 28, 2020, 09:48:44 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 28, 2020, 09:33:27 PM
WRT the now-fired principal, had she been a Walmart cashier and made these sorts of remarks, she may have been fired.   But public school principals are public figures, and must not make divisive remarks that serve no purpose and may well indicate racism on line.   She will lose the confidence of her community, especially in a bright bright bright blue place like Vermont.  She has no tenure, further, and no right to maintain her position once her remarks demonstrate valid reasons to suspect she may be less than fair in her treatment of all her students and families.

Gotta disagree.

Her comments were relatively mild, in the first place, and did not demonstrate any valid reasons to indicate she behaves unfairly toward anyone.  She does not appear to understand BLM, but her opinion is her right.

In the second place, we are on very dangerous ground.  We are edging into territory in which our private lives are dictated by our employers, and in this case a public employer.  Think about it: Institutions can tell us what to say and what not to say when we are not on the job.  That's frightening.  America has always prided itself on the ability of its citizens to express themselves, even if that opinion is unpopular.  School principals have as much right to speak their minds as do cashiers. 

I almost agree with you. If something like "race relations" is a big part of the job, statements like this can indicate potential bias or ignorance that would prevent you from properly doing your job, so firing is a perfectly acceptable outcome. I don't see how that applies in this particular case, but it's possible to construct theoretical scenarios in which her firing was not completely insane. I also disagree that this didn't happen in the past. See, among others, Dalton Trumbo.

The line goes both ways, though.

At what point do we decide that someone has indicated a potential bias?  What is a correct philosophy or persona?  If a Facebook post expressing a political opinion (and BLM is political) can get one fired, we are sneaking toward an Orwellian culture.  As apl68 pointe out, there may be some reasons to question BLM.

Dalton Trumbo is indeed a perfect example.  As I said, we are on very thin ice here.   

And, again as apl68 just posted, BLM is destroying its own base through radicalism and zealotry.  FOX news and Breitbart just got new headlines. 

More importantly: Should apl68 now lose hu's job if someone finds out who apl68 really is?

No time to read the discussion that followed, but I wanted to respond to this. We can carry things out to an extreme. If a school administrator refers to minorities using the N-word, talks about nooses, keeps white sheets in his office, and is in charge of discipline for a school with minorities, they are clearly incapable of doing their job properly. It's not a matter of free speech. If a science teacher stands in front of the class and teaches the kids that all other planets rotate around Neptune, that science teacher should be fired. You can argue that these are not merely political or religious opinions. Well, some would say they are. There's a threshold where speech indicates inability to do the job you're paid to do.

As for Fox and Breitbart, they'll have something to talk about no matter what others do. The firing in question was crazy because it was crazy, not because Breitbart can make a story about it.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: mahagonny on July 31, 2020, 08:49:37 AM
QuoteIf something like "race relations" is a big part of the job, statements like this can indicate potential bias or ignorance that would prevent you from properly doing your job, so firing is a perfectly acceptable outcome

If race relations is mentioned in your job description these days, there is a very specific script you must follow. And it would look like Black Lives Matter wrote that script, even if they didn't. That's why I think we're in a wave of hysteria and intolerance. And many don't see it if they agreed with that script already.
Title: Re: "Racist" professor found dead in home
Post by: Wahoo Redux on July 31, 2020, 08:50:39 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on July 31, 2020, 07:24:06 AM

No time to read the discussion that followed, but I wanted to respond to this. We can carry things out to an extreme. If a school administrator refers to minorities using the N-word, talks about nooses, keeps white sheets in his office, and is in charge of discipline for a school with minorities, they are clearly incapable of doing their job properly. It's not a matter of free speech. If a science teacher stands in front of the class and teaches the kids that all other planets rotate around Neptune, that science teacher should be fired. You can argue that these are not merely political or religious opinions. Well, some would say they are. There's a threshold where speech indicates inability to do the job you're paid to do.

As for Fox and Breitbart, they'll have something to talk about no matter what others do. The firing in question was crazy because it was crazy, not because Breitbart can make a story about it.

The conversation that follows covers this, more or less, and the big problem with the extreme hypothetical, the reductio ad absurdum, is that it gives license to the censors and the zealots.   

Do we have a Klucker principal somewhere?  No, I don't think so, at least not in the extreme you describe.

Or do we have nursing deans being fired for saying "all lives matter"?  Yes, we do.

So we are using the hypothetical to limit the reality.

And in any event, both of your examples take place on the job.  That's where the line is. 

I do have to disagree: FOX can make a headline out of almost anything, but these sorts of events are their bread and butter.  This is what these "news" services live for.  The worst part is one cannot challenge and deconstruct the event as one can with many FOX headlines.