The Fora: A Higher Education Community

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: aside on June 05, 2019, 09:01:13 PM

Title: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on June 05, 2019, 09:01:13 PM
For comments that are peripheral to the discussion on a thread or might derail it if posted there.

To begin:

That's why Trump got elected!
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: San Joaquin on June 06, 2019, 10:43:06 AM
I wish someone had taught me more about classroom management before I had to learn those things the hard way.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on June 09, 2019, 08:02:05 PM
For comments that are peripheral to the discussion on a thread or might derail it if posted there.

To begin:

That's why Trump got elected!

And for posts that you'd like to make but don't want the thread showing up in your "new replies" forever and ever.  For example:

Great moniker!  Are you a fellow musician?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on June 09, 2019, 08:04:30 PM
And for posts that you'd like to make but don't want the thread showing up in your "new replies" forever and ever. 

That's an option?  Dang, blew it already.  Well, at least I'm currently free of the limericks and animals that begin with P here (82 pages' worth of new replies to my posts still on the CHE fora and I have more than once clicked "mark all read").
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on June 09, 2019, 08:15:12 PM
And for posts that you'd like to make but don't want the thread showing up in your "new replies" forever and ever. 

That's an option?  Dang, blew it already.  Well, at least I'm currently free of the limericks and animals that begin with P here (82 pages' worth of new replies to my posts still on the CHE fora and I have more than once clicked "mark all read").

Yes, I had a bit of the same problem on CHE, although not nearly at the magnitude of yours.  I did post on a few threads on which I did not realize I would not want to continue participating, and had plenty of opportunities to regret doing so.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on June 09, 2019, 08:37:38 PM
Regret is too strong a word for my feelings.  I generally only browse by "unread posts since last time" instead of "new replies to your posts" because I want to know everything that's going on.  I have been reading limericks and "P" animals, but I have refrained from posting there.

I like starting over because I can still read every post here every day for now.  I can decide whether I'm contributing anything to a conversation or whether I'm hoping to learn something new by reading others' thoughts.

Say, did we ever learn anything about bookmarking a thread here with a modern version of the software?  <off to do research>
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on June 10, 2019, 05:23:07 AM
I've just been bookmarking by posting a "bookmark" post, as before.

I don't mind seeing threads I'm less interested in show up; it only takes a second to click on it, close it without reading, and be on my way.

Never understood the issue as a big deal.

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on June 10, 2019, 05:30:42 AM
I've just been bookmarking by posting a "bookmark" post, as before.

fast_and_bulbous specifically mentioned on the new CHE fora discussion threads the ease of using system bookmarking so I'm wondering about that function.

I don't mind seeing threads I'm less interested in show up; it only takes a second to click on it, close it without reading, and be on my way.

One does not even have to click on each thread; one can read the interesting ones and then click to "mark all read", if the flow is such one can get through most posts most days.

I have a bazillion responses left in my replies list because the CHE fora got too big to read everything everyday and I ended up with months where I could do little or no reading.  At some point, I just stopped looking at the "new replies to your posts" list as being far less relevant than "unread posts since last visit".

In the past month, the CHE list of "unread posts since last visit" has tended to be very small.  Even when I'm away for a couple days, the number of threads having new posts may be less than a dozen.  Time was, overnight would result in a good dozen active threads to read the next day.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on June 10, 2019, 07:33:50 AM
I've just been bookmarking by posting a "bookmark" post, as before.

I don't mind seeing threads I'm less interested in show up; it only takes a second to click on it, close it without reading, and be on my way.

Never understood the issue as a big deal.

M.

Oh well, different strokes, and all that.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: namazu on June 20, 2019, 01:41:40 PM
Maybe this fits better in the "Things You Want to Tell People" thread, but I'm entertained that two early joiners of The Fora were "notmycircus" and "Release the Monkeys!".  :)
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on June 20, 2019, 07:28:28 PM
Maybe this fits better in the "Things You Want to Tell People" thread, but I'm entertained that two early joiners of The Fora were "notmycircus" and "Release the Monkeys!".  :)

This fits very well on this thread.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on June 21, 2019, 07:32:23 AM
When will the gloves come off?

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on June 21, 2019, 05:20:33 PM
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."

--Napoleon Bonaparte
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on June 24, 2019, 07:45:42 PM
If your father's ancestry did not go back that far, then from whence would he have come?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: glowdart on June 24, 2019, 08:10:09 PM
I may be tempting the bots, but the lack of spam is pretty rad.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: hungry_ghost on June 26, 2019, 09:38:40 PM
Posters 2.0: I thought this was going to be about new incarnations of posters from the CHE Forums. Oh well.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on June 27, 2019, 08:14:48 PM
Rats!  It was nice while it lasted.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: namazu on June 28, 2019, 01:24:04 PM
I guess it would be evil of me to mention the "Stats".
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on June 28, 2019, 04:28:13 PM
I guess it would be evil of me to mention the "Stats".

I've taken that one for you since I read there before I read here.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: hungry_ghost on July 02, 2019, 09:01:44 PM
Paul, the animal beginning with P-
... LOL.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: ergative on July 03, 2019, 12:31:54 PM
I think I know what your monicker was on the old fora.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on July 03, 2019, 05:05:24 PM
I think I know what your monicker was on the old fora.

Dang!  I thought I was doing so well.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on July 06, 2019, 06:17:12 AM
Sigh.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: Thursday's_Child on July 06, 2019, 09:24:06 AM
Groan.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on July 08, 2019, 08:18:13 PM
Channeling my inner Crocodile Dundee: That's not a knifeproblem.  This is a knife problem!
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: FishProf on July 09, 2019, 07:47:59 AM
I thought you weren't coming.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on July 10, 2019, 05:19:09 AM
A PSA in a more visible place since I know you haven't all read the syllabus as posted in Suggestions, Comments, and Questions:

The current rules are:
1. Don't personally attack or harass other users. You know what crosses this line, don't do it.
2. Do not feed the trolls. Let them carry on with little fanfare.
3. Don't carry baggage from one thread to another. Sure, you may have a disagreement with another user in a different thread, but carrying that on into each new thread either of you start is not productive.
4. Don't be a vigilante. If someone is doing something wrong, report them and move on.
5. No spam. You know what this is.
6. No advertising. Whether it's your newest paper, newest book, a new EduTech website or something else- the place to advertise it is not here.
7. Do not "out" other users. Do not threaten to "out" other users.
8. Use standard spelling, punctuation and paragraphs on your posts.

Carry on!
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on July 11, 2019, 04:39:52 PM
A PSA in a more visible place since I know you haven't all read the syllabus as posted in Suggestions, Comments, and Questions:

The current rules are:
1. Don't personally attack or harass other users. You know what crosses this line, don't do it.
2. Do not feed the trolls. Let them carry on with little fanfare.
3. Don't carry baggage from one thread to another. Sure, you may have a disagreement with another user in a different thread, but carrying that on into each new thread either of you start is not productive.
4. Don't be a vigilante. If someone is doing something wrong, report them and move on.
5. No spam. You know what this is.
6. No advertising. Whether it's your newest paper, newest book, a new EduTech website or something else- the place to advertise it is not here.
7. Do not "out" other users. Do not threaten to "out" other users.
8. Use standard spelling, punctuation and paragraphs on your posts.

Carry on!

Has someone crossed the line?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on July 12, 2019, 04:35:20 AM
Has someone crossed the line?

I'm being proactive as I notice we have new people, not just migrants, and the counter indicating reads on the rules has not been keeping pace with number of registered folks.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on July 12, 2019, 05:31:32 AM
Has someone crossed the line?

I'm being proactive as I notice we have new people, not just migrants, and the counter indicating reads on the rules has not been keeping pace with number of registered folks.

Excellent.  Thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on July 12, 2019, 07:10:44 PM
Let's be charitable and assume you did not think that through before posting.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: hungry_ghost on July 18, 2019, 02:05:49 PM
Personally I think the way this was handled is dumb.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on July 18, 2019, 08:33:19 PM
[not directed at hungry_ghost]

You realize you just called a lot of forumites dumb!
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on July 19, 2019, 12:14:47 PM
{probably unrelated to any recent posts on this thread}

My inner LarryC is amused.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: miss jane marple on July 19, 2019, 01:56:46 PM
<unrelated>

I suppose I'm the last one to figure that out.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on July 20, 2019, 05:51:44 AM
<probably unrelated>

I hear the Limericks thread calling your name (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=7.0). 
It's not Friday, but you could still contribute to the Friday haiku thread as well. (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=9.0) 

How's your weather? (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=63.0)  Are you staying cool during a heat wave or enjoying the pleasant weather where I am or something in between?

What are you reading? (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=50.0)  You can be reading for pleasure, for work, or for just being unable to look away from a train wreck.

Gotten started on fall prep yet? 
Are Jedi Mind Tricks coming to mind?  (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=10.msg60)
Do you have any tips to share with others in Humane Course Policies that make life easier? (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=32.0)

Are you teaching right now so that Classroom Victories are appropriate? (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=11.0)
 Or, would the commiseration at Bang Your Head be more appropriate right now? (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=72.0)

How's that writing going? 
Would checking in with Paralysis Analysis help you stay on track? (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=134.0) 
Or is Work Sprint more your style? (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=183.0)


Need office supplies? (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=273.msg4070) 
How about a new device?   (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=108.0)


Is it less about a discussion and more a need to vent? (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=64.msg455) 
Do you need affirmation in your beliefs? (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=117.msg1201)
How about validation for your actions? (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=226.msg3288)

Finally, maybe you just want some cheering up? (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=371.0)

No?

Well, let me just pull this one out of the closet from 2012 where someone thought it should go on the Posting Hall of Fame: (https://www.chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,30991.msg2130995.html#msg2130995)

Quote
Are you waiting for someone to seek you out and praise you?  That's not going to happen.

Instead, I get a lot of motivation from doing the fascinating things and the interactions that come with the doing. 

Publishing sucks.  I hate writing papers.  I hate editing them.  I hate doing the revisions for them.

Reviewing papers sucks.  I hate all authors everywhere and filling out editorial forms.

Prepping for classes sucks.  I hate having to think "how will people manage to screw up this very simple task?".  I hate doing the same stinking problem with a bazillion steps so that anyone who tries can follow it.

Grading sucks.  How could anyone mess up copying a fact from the book?  How could anyone not be able to do arithmetic?  How could anyone not being able to write a coherent sentence in legible penmanship?

Committee work sucks.  I hate my colleagues who cannot attend a meeting on time, didn't prepare for the meeting, and can't make a decision even with a gun to their heads.

Research sucks.  As soon as I get good at something, I have to learn something else.  My hard drive crashed and it's three days to put the system back into working order.  I've lost 10 programs that I wrote in the past month and all the data as well.  And, as soon as I really know what's going on, then I have to write a damn paper or make a presentation.

Presentations suck.  I can see half the room is reading the program to see if something better is coming up and I spent roughly five hours to make a presentation that is over in 10 minutes.

Yet.....

When students get a topic, then their pleasure is my pleasure.  All is forgotten about prep and grading and all that remains is that shining joy that someone learned something and I was there to help it happen.

When my research is humming along, I looooooooooove the feel of being in the groove and will snap at anyone who mentions the weeks, months, or years of drudgery to get to that point.

Nothing is better than the spirited give and take with colleagues about our common interests.  I've gotten a lot of trophies, medals, certificates, and A's, but I would trade all of them for an afternoon of spirited conversation in one of my areas of interest where ideas are shared and everyone goes away with new things to try.

I do have mentors for particular aspects of my career, but they are often people who push me hard to try new things and revise whatever one more time before submitting instead of praising me.

I am seldom praised by anyone for the things of which I am most proud.  Instead, I often infer praise from people inviting me to be a collaborator, be a reviewer, and be a speaker, or asking my advice in some area of my expertise.  Clearly, they appreciate my efforts, but few ever come right out and say, "You're doing a great job, Polly.  Keep it up!"  You, too, will have to learn to take pleasure and motivation in the doing instead of seeking praise, or you will be very unhappy waiting for praise that will be too little with huge gaps between instances.

Your life is yours.  Every day, you get to decide.  We can't decide for you and almost nothing we can do in this virtual world will matter unless you decide it matters enough to you personally so that you act on it.

Oh, and really do stop by the Limericks thread: you'll be glad you did.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on July 20, 2019, 01:10:08 PM
In case it becomes important, I prefer to be compared to Joseph Stalin rather than Adolf Hitler.  Just FYI.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: archaeo42 on July 26, 2019, 05:21:25 AM
...

oh. okay then.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: ciao_yall on July 26, 2019, 07:39:35 AM
I think I'm going to puffy-heart-with-glitter-and-sprinkles this "ignore" feature.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: RatGuy on July 26, 2019, 08:05:21 AM
I think I'm going to puffy-heart-with-glitter-and-sprinkles this "ignore" feature.

It cut the number of pages in one thread by half
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on July 26, 2019, 09:30:26 AM
In case it becomes important, I prefer to be compared to Joseph Stalin rather than Adolf Hitler.  Just FYI.

I thought your thing was you took jobs nobody wanted to do. And I find out you're vain.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on July 27, 2019, 05:15:55 AM
In case it becomes important, I prefer to be compared to Joseph Stalin rather than Adolf Hitler.  Just FYI.

I thought your thing was you took jobs nobody wanted to do. And I find out you're vain.

Do you think a lot of people wanted the jobs that Uncle Joe took along the way to becoming Uncle Joe?  Go read up on Uncle Joe's biography.  It's a pretty good read.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: scamp on July 30, 2019, 10:59:43 AM
I think I'm going to puffy-heart-with-glitter-and-sprinkles this "ignore" feature.

It cut the number of pages in one thread by half

Where do I find this?!
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: Thursday's_Child on July 30, 2019, 11:25:57 AM
One of the advantages of a moniker change is that you can leave all sorts of issues behind you.
But only if you want to, of course.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: namazu on July 30, 2019, 04:57:24 PM
I think I'm going to puffy-heart-with-glitter-and-sprinkles this "ignore" feature.
Where do I find this?!
Instructions on the "Technical FAQ" thread. (http://thefora.org/index.php?topic=28.msg5279#msg5279)
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on July 31, 2019, 05:46:41 AM
"This food is terrible!"

"Yes, and the portions are so small!"
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: scamp on July 31, 2019, 12:03:13 PM
I think I'm going to puffy-heart-with-glitter-and-sprinkles this "ignore" feature.
Where do I find this?!
Instructions on the "Technical FAQ" thread. (http://thefora.org/index.php?topic=28.msg5279#msg5279)

Amazing!
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on August 06, 2019, 05:31:56 AM
We have many discussions going related to academic jobs and personal lives. 

We have serious discussions related to national events and state of higher ed.

We have fun and games.

Have you checked out Only Really Exciting Posts?  Drunk any refreshing summer beverages?  What does fuel cost in your neighborhood?

Join us in productive or human interest discussion!
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: hungry_ghost on August 12, 2019, 01:36:30 PM
I think I'm going to puffy-heart-with-glitter-and-sprinkles this "ignore" feature.
Where do I find this?!
Instructions on the "Technical FAQ" thread. (http://thefora.org/index.php?topic=28.msg5279#msg5279)

Amazing!

Indeed. I was uncertain about whether I'd hang around, but maybe I will after all!
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: archaeo42 on August 20, 2019, 11:25:57 AM
It sounds like you don't think those things are worthwhile.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on August 24, 2019, 04:02:26 PM
Since we have so many new folks as fall gets into full swing, it's time for another conspicuous posting of the rules.

1. Don't personally attack or harass other users. You know what crosses this line, don't do it.
2. Do not feed the trolls. Let them carry on with little fanfare.
3. Don't carry baggage from one thread to another. Sure, you may have a disagreement with another user in a different thread, but carrying that on into each new thread either of you start is not productive.
4. Don't be a vigilante. If someone is doing something wrong, report them and move on.
5. No spam. You know what this is.
6. No advertising. Whether it's your newest paper, newest book, a new EduTech website or something else- the place to advertise it is not here.
7. Do not "out" other users. Do not threaten to "out" other users.
8. Use standard spelling, punctuation and paragraphs on your posts.

By current practice, "outing" other users includes publicly speculating about possible monikers on the CHE (old) fora for non-matching monikers here.  People who kept their old monikers are assumed to be continuing; others are doing a reboot or possibly just sound very similar as new people.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on August 27, 2019, 03:55:52 PM
OP, there's only one person's behavior you can control.  Wait . . . that might be an overestimate.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: ergative on September 03, 2019, 10:03:43 AM
Wow--you didn't even pretend that your comment was related to the thread's topic.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on September 03, 2019, 10:57:48 AM
If that was I, apologies if it appeared that way.

It did in fact tie to the last paragraph of the previous post.

And I offered a short/long version option...and to create another thread.

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: ergative on September 04, 2019, 02:14:53 AM
It was not you.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on September 04, 2019, 05:15:17 AM
Oh, good!

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: archaeo42 on September 04, 2019, 11:34:59 AM
Huh. Okay

Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on October 06, 2019, 07:37:10 AM
Mr. Mer points out that addressing the cover letter as "Dear Future Colleagues Who Were Too Slow to Get Out of Serving on the Search Committee" is a bad idea.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on October 12, 2019, 10:08:46 AM
Accreditors and the Department of Education administering the Title IV money often care about courses that have too few meetings and are not within the required range for whole-class interactions.  Thus, administrators often care about faculty members cancelling too many classes, especially faculty members who are relatively easy to fire/non-renew and then replace with someone else who will follow all the rules about number of meetings.

It was really "fun" to deal with the Dept of Ed investigation after a routine audit turned up discrepancies between how much classes were supposed to meet and how much some of those classes really were meeting.  That "fun" tends to roll downhill to the people who didn't follow the rules.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: FishProf on October 14, 2019, 06:34:15 AM
I'd like to think the number of strawmen (strawpersons?) showing up hear just reflects the season.

Alas, I know better.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: fast_and_bulbous on October 21, 2019, 10:37:50 AM
Hicksizing (noun): The process of relating one's authentic rural upbringing in such a way as to outcompete another's.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on October 21, 2019, 12:20:58 PM
Isn't that a present progressive, with its '-ing ending'?

Or at least a gerund? (Well, OK, if it's a gerund it's a noun....sort-of)

;--}

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: fast_and_bulbous on October 21, 2019, 02:26:02 PM
Isn't that a present progressive, with its '-ing ending'?

Or at least a gerund? (Well, OK, if it's a gerund it's a noun....sort-of)

;--}

M.

I guess that liberal arts education I got has failed me... what was the point of all that muck anyway?? Tongue firmly in cheek...
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on October 21, 2019, 07:57:33 PM
Hicksizing (noun): The process of relating one's authentic rural upbringing in such a way as to outcompete another's.

Everything's a competition if you do it correctly!
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on October 23, 2019, 07:10:11 PM
I really liked the Slate comment of "I rolled my eyes so hard they might be sprained".
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on October 26, 2019, 07:00:01 AM
Me, calculating a grade still using my high school algebra:

The student got 15 of a possible 17 points on this assignment and I want to give them a percentage grade, so: 15 is to 17 as X is to 100 ...

Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on October 30, 2019, 04:13:08 AM
You look good in a hat.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on November 02, 2019, 04:20:56 PM
You look good in a hat.

I have a huge collection of hats.  I'm writing to Santa for a sombrero like this one. (https://www.lafuente.com/Mexican-Decor/Mexican-Sombreros/13487/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse&utm_campaign=SOM010C&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_4Hgh9XM5QIVchitBh3CqQqMEAQYBCABEgJXFfD_BwE)  You could chip in to the gift pool, if you like.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on November 03, 2019, 08:02:22 AM
So, if I read your novel I'll be able to tell it is you by your trademark themes. But I'll not divulge. Scout's honor.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on November 03, 2019, 04:05:15 PM
Perhaps you should get out more.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on November 04, 2019, 04:46:09 AM
So, if I read your novel I'll be able to tell it is you by your trademark themes. But I'll not divulge. Scout's honor.

Yep, those trademark themes:

"Go where your efforts matter"
"Leaders and Grand Viziers have different skills sets and the empire needs both on the leadership team"
"Beware claims for automation that take human judgement out of the process"
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on November 06, 2019, 04:50:03 AM
As my genius is not appreciated, I'll take it elsewhere.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on November 13, 2019, 06:13:39 AM
I see the problem.  Let me state it in nice big letters:

Life is not fair.

A pretty good, pro-labor argument includes   "by de-valuing the PhD as a credential for college instruction, college administrators have massively expanded the supply of job candidates, thereby allowing them to reduce teaching salaries to poverty wages." (http://www.lawcha.org/2017/01/09/decline-faculty-tenure-less-oversupply-phds-systematic-de-valuation-phd-credential-college-teaching/)

The numbers alone just aren't good:

1.4 million people are working as postsecondary teachers with an estimated 160k jobs to be added in the next 10 years. (https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/postsecondary-teachers.htm) 

 55k people earn PhDs annually in the US with the number being greater than 50k per year for about a decade. (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/12/10/are-numbers-doctorates-awarded-finally-starting-reflect-poor-academic-job-market)

About 25 million people in the US already have graduate degrees. (https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/02/number-of-people-with-masters-and-phd-degrees-double-since-2000.html)

Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on November 15, 2019, 04:26:42 PM
Quote at the top and add new text at the bottom.

Never mix and match by adding text in random order to an existing quote series.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: bacardiandlime on November 16, 2019, 06:42:42 AM
OMFG. Just stop it.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: paultuttle on November 17, 2019, 06:16:29 PM
That list of identifiable quirks you created after your family pet died? We do that with people too: "Remember how Aunt Gertrude used to . . . . ?"

And that helps them live on in our memory.

A specific example from my own family: The actress who played the Fat Lady in the first Harry Potter movie looked much like and sounded very nearly identical to my mother's older sister, who had been a seventh-grade English teacher for years.

Somewhat intimidating in her impenetrable pomposity, she always moved and spoke with considerable (self-conscious/deliberate) gravitas. But she became human to me for just about an hour one time during a family reunion when she learned that I was (then) studying to be a high school English teacher--she spoke warmly and enthusiastically about her love of teaching, how fulfilled she felt when her students succeeded, and how gratified she was when they returned and thanked her for being such a wonderful, memorable teacher. (I was quite frankly amazed but welcomed the revelation. I never again saw this side of her.)

These days, I remember what had been even her most irritatingly hoity-toity mannerisms with great fondness, knowing the depth of commitment to, and considerable love of, teaching that those mannerisms had hid.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: nescafe on November 18, 2019, 03:18:34 PM
I genuinely can't tell whether that one poster is a troll, a comedic sock managed by another poster, or someone who actually doesn't know better.

My confusion is probably a testament to how good a troll this person is. So well done?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: downer on November 18, 2019, 05:22:19 PM
I genuinely can't tell whether that one poster is a troll, a comedic sock managed by another poster, or someone who actually doesn't know better.

My confusion is probably a testament to how good a troll this person is. So well done?

I can see the amusement for the poster "behind the curtain" but our Cowardly Lion isn't funny.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: FishProf on November 20, 2019, 02:23:32 PM
Those are some pretty nefarious characters you are describing.  Are they real?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: Liquidambar on November 23, 2019, 08:31:22 AM
If I started a "dead horse" thread for everyone, could you take all your dead horses there for beating?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: fast_and_bulbous on November 23, 2019, 09:43:07 AM
If I started a "dead horse" thread for everyone, could you take all your dead horses there for beating?

One man's dead horse is another's righteous crusade.

Soon there won't even be a horse, it'll just be a shallow trench in the ground.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: ciao_yall on November 23, 2019, 01:02:44 PM
If I started a "dead horse" thread for everyone, could you take all your dead horses there for beating?

One man's dead horse is another's righteous crusade.

Soon there won't even be a horse, it'll just be a shallow trench in the ground.

That horse has been dead a loooonnnngggg time.

All I see is a greasy spot and remnants of what might have been a mane.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on November 23, 2019, 05:56:19 PM
I genuinely can't tell whether that one poster is a troll, a comedic sock managed by another poster, or someone who actually doesn't know better.

My confusion is probably a testament to how good a troll this person is. So well done?

I can see the amusement for the poster "behind the curtain" but our Cowardly Lion isn't funny.

If it's the one I'm thinking, I know too many people who get stuck in the rut to write off as troll.  That's why I continue to beat on that dead horse well past the patience of others.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: nescafe on December 12, 2019, 07:54:20 AM
I'll say this much. Six years on the job market, and it was the year I got a pair of those glasses that I got the job.


So.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: archaeo42 on December 12, 2019, 12:56:34 PM
WTF motivates you to say sh!t like that?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on December 12, 2019, 06:01:13 PM
WTF motivates you to say sh!t like that?
I use up all my filters at work.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: archaeo42 on December 13, 2019, 06:35:20 AM
WTF motivates you to say sh!t like that?
I use up all my filters at work.

Not directed at anything you've posted.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: San Joaquin on December 13, 2019, 07:06:18 AM
Random speculation:

Do ideas gel, or crystallize?  Does it depend on your personal chemistry?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: downer on December 13, 2019, 09:55:43 AM
There is such a thing as a stupid question.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: Thursday's_Child on December 14, 2019, 10:36:44 AM
There is such a thing as a stupid question.

Are you denying the existence of stupid people?
<ducks & runs>
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: nescafe on December 16, 2019, 12:53:21 PM
This is beyond petty, but when I type "fuck" into my mobile, my autocomplete prompts me to add the name of a specific university.

Guess which one.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: paultuttle on December 17, 2019, 07:05:12 AM
WTF motivates you to say sh!t like that?
I use up all my filters at work.

I'm so there with you, polly_mer.

This is beyond petty, but when I type "fuck" into my mobile, my autocomplete prompts me to add the name of a specific university.

Guess which one.

Hmmm. Harvard? Or Trump U?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on December 18, 2019, 06:52:04 AM
I continue to receive positive feedback for the "wall of text" posts as being useful to people who want to learn about the problems and don't read as extensively as I do.

Thus, I'm usually writing for that audience, not the person who responded, which is why I often skip a point-by-point rebuttal in favor of the next researched post on the topic.

If you don't want to read it, then don't, but then don't also make statements like, how could anyone have known <something that has been readily available for decades as a steady stream in the popular press aimed at an educated audience>?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: nescafe on December 18, 2019, 10:16:25 AM
Hmmm. Harvard? Or Trump U?

Wait, someone's talking about Trump U on these fora? :)
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: Anselm on December 18, 2019, 03:26:58 PM
Good point!  That explains why physicians never join country clubs or live in gated communities.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: miss jane marple on December 24, 2019, 01:15:06 PM
Well, who could have seen that coming? Oh, wait, I did <author=miss jane marple link=topic=4.msg660#msg660 date=1558544968>.

Transparency-transshmerantsy.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: fast_and_bulbous on December 24, 2019, 06:19:42 PM
Wzz psh msf tsszwb dfshhm dfcir ct mcifgszt fwuvh bck. Mci gvcizr hoys o pck!
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: ciao_yall on December 27, 2019, 07:19:58 AM
Our first "serpent's tooth!"
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: nescafe on January 01, 2020, 09:34:04 PM
Well that certainly squares, because you are tired.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: Thursday's_Child on January 11, 2020, 08:55:41 AM
Me thinks thou art indeed a student, and I'm not the first forumite to do so.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on January 26, 2020, 08:51:35 AM
I have to go get something else done and that was most of the time I could devote to these fora this week.

You are welcome, lurkers who need someone other than Professor Sparklepony as well as anyone else who doesn't get enough perspective from outside a local bubble.

Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: archaeo42 on January 30, 2020, 05:52:08 AM
Or what if we had a system where choices like that didn't have to be made. Just because things exist like that now does not mean it has to be that way.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on January 31, 2020, 04:59:39 PM
Unrelated to anything above...I think...

If it weren't about something so serious, I'd enjoy a good game of dueling metaphors...

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: archaeo42 on February 06, 2020, 09:24:53 AM
Nearly everything you post makes me want to reply with the blank face emoji.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on February 06, 2020, 11:11:27 AM
I'm grateful we have the benefit of well-equipped experts who can discuss things like epidemic vectors and statistical variations with good sense and confidence.

I mean that sincerely.

The wisdom and experience represented here are so valuable, and so worthy of our respect.

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: hungry_ghost on February 20, 2020, 08:36:56 PM
Oh good lord.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on February 21, 2020, 03:33:54 AM
Or what if we had a system where choices like that didn't have to be made. Just because things exist like that now does not mean it has to be that way.

People who benefit from the current system usually only want small tweaks.  They usually don't want drastic changes to fix the system for "everyone" if that means they, personally, lose some of their current benefits.

I laugh every single time I encounter the idea that college isn't about learning specific areas that would be useful to jobs, but we should still require specific classes because that keeps certain individuals employed as teachers who won't/can't/don't do the cube farm jobs that successful college graduates from their institution will get somehow, magically, a handful of unrelated general education classes is an adequate substitute for an integrated liberal arts education at an elite institution.

I laugh every single time I encounter the idea that a recent college graduate who takes the same job out of college that peers took out of high school is somehow going to pass those peers in the workplace.  If a motivated, smart-enough person can climb the internal ladder through internal training, then waiting 4 years to start the path from peon to district manager instead of starting immediately means someone is four years behind.

College may not be about getting a specific job title like Key Punch Specialist Level III, but I wonder how long some institutions would remain open if they explicitly put a warning on all websites and application materials of "College does not prepare you for a job.  We have a general education program staffed with a lot of adjuncts and non-tenure-track folks who aren't doing a lot of research nor are they providing a liberal arts immersion experience because they are so overworked."
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mouseman on February 27, 2020, 08:04:25 PM

"I don't see why hiring only white men is a problem" says one white man.

"There are White men who are underpaid because they refuse to look for other jobs, shouldn't give them those jobs before we start hiring minorities or women, who are probably not really qualified anyway?" chimes in another white man.

"How dare you call us racist and sexist, we're just stating the facts as they are" the cry out together.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on February 28, 2020, 04:10:54 AM
Huffington Post yesterday had the article: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/homeless-unsheltered-life-on-streets_n_5e555b02c5b6a718cdce979b

The article's author explicitly states a case along the lines of: anyone could be homeless; let's be more compassionate towards our fellow human beings as we work towards solutions.

However, the author's examples add up to evidence better supporting a thesis of: poor decisions tend to have poor outcomes; better decisions are much more likely to lead to better outcomes, but some people do get unlucky and probably could benefit from a tweaked system that would make being unlucky less likely or at least less of a problem for most individuals.

I'm also reminded of the article in Slate about the woman whose dream was to start a non-profit to support artists, but spent her time in grad school working on an MFA with the occasional Chamber of Commerce workshop related to business instead of studying for an MPA and taking workshops in creative writing. (https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/12/from-graduate-student-to-amazon-warehouse-janitor.html)

Melville's "Bartleby, the Scrivener: A Story of Wall Street" also tends to spend a lot of time in my mind as I continue to read and sigh heavily.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: little bongo on February 28, 2020, 07:49:16 AM
Bartleby is one of my great literary heroes.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on February 28, 2020, 08:09:44 AM
Huffington Post yesterday had the article: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/homeless-unsheltered-life-on-streets_n_5e555b02c5b6a718cdce979b

The article's author explicitly states a case along the lines of: anyone could be homeless; let's be more compassionate towards our fellow human beings as we work towards solutions.

However, the author's examples add up to evidence better supporting a thesis of: poor decisions tend to have poor outcomes; better decisions are much more likely to lead to better outcomes, but some people do get unlucky and probably could benefit from a tweaked system that would make being unlucky less likely or at least less of a problem for most individuals.


The bad luck that I see is being clinically depressed without knowing it. Therefore good decision making is a lot harder and less likely.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: marshwiggle on February 28, 2020, 08:25:05 AM
Huffington Post yesterday had the article: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/homeless-unsheltered-life-on-streets_n_5e555b02c5b6a718cdce979b

The article's author explicitly states a case along the lines of: anyone could be homeless; let's be more compassionate towards our fellow human beings as we work towards solutions.

However, the author's examples add up to evidence better supporting a thesis of: poor decisions tend to have poor outcomes; better decisions are much more likely to lead to better outcomes, but some people do get unlucky and probably could benefit from a tweaked system that would make being unlucky less likely or at least less of a problem for most individuals.


The bad luck that I see is being clinically depressed without knowing it. Therefore good decision making is a lot harder and less likely.

One of the features of so many of these stories is the implicit idea that life "happens".
From the article:
Quote
After my parents’ divorce when I was 12, my life was relatively uneventful throughout my teen years. I seemed to be headed toward the typical path expected of a girl like me: graduation from high school and college at a state university followed by a job that would provide security but no real excitement. And maybe I’d get married and have a couple of children along the way.

Instead, I dropped out of school at 17, left home, and ended up on the Las Vegas doorstep of a man I had met just once in a Fremont Street casino. I arrived with no diploma, no job experience, no money and no clue how I was going to get any of these things, or survive on my own.


The language is so incredibly passive. The author indeed "dropped out of school", but "ended up" in Vegas. Alien abduction? Stumbled onto the wrong bus? How does one "end up" in a different city without deciding to go there, short of being kidnapped?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on February 28, 2020, 08:47:47 AM
Huffington Post yesterday had the article: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/homeless-unsheltered-life-on-streets_n_5e555b02c5b6a718cdce979b

The article's author explicitly states a case along the lines of: anyone could be homeless; let's be more compassionate towards our fellow human beings as we work towards solutions.

However, the author's examples add up to evidence better supporting a thesis of: poor decisions tend to have poor outcomes; better decisions are much more likely to lead to better outcomes, but some people do get unlucky and probably could benefit from a tweaked system that would make being unlucky less likely or at least less of a problem for most individuals.


The bad luck that I see is being clinically depressed without knowing it. Therefore good decision making is a lot harder and less likely.

One of the features of so many of these stories is the implicit idea that life "happens".
From the article:
Quote
After my parents’ divorce when I was 12, my life was relatively uneventful throughout my teen years. I seemed to be headed toward the typical path expected of a girl like me: graduation from high school and college at a state university followed by a job that would provide security but no real excitement. And maybe I’d get married and have a couple of children along the way.

Instead, I dropped out of school at 17, left home, and ended up on the Las Vegas doorstep of a man I had met just once in a Fremont Street casino. I arrived with no diploma, no job experience, no money and no clue how I was going to get any of these things, or survive on my own.


The language is so incredibly passive. The author indeed "dropped out of school", but "ended up" in Vegas. Alien abduction? Stumbled onto the wrong bus? How does one "end up" in a different city without deciding to go there, short of being kidnapped?

Do you consider this rebuttal to my point? Yes, the language is passive. It's not exactly a fact that she was forced to self medicate with alcohol or strike up with a poorly adjusted, selfish man or leave her family. But this part is a fact: people with a history of a depression feel less in control of their lives and it shows up in their narration. It also appears to me (and I'm not trained in psychology outside of being a patient) that she was prone to or maybe even attracted to risk taking, and didn't have the self awareness to recognize that about herself.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: marshwiggle on February 28, 2020, 09:17:35 AM
The bad luck that I see is being clinically depressed without knowing it. Therefore good decision making is a lot harder and less likely.

One of the features of so many of these stories is the implicit idea that life "happens".
From the article:
Quote
After my parents’ divorce when I was 12, my life was relatively uneventful throughout my teen years. I seemed to be headed toward the typical path expected of a girl like me: graduation from high school and college at a state university followed by a job that would provide security but no real excitement. And maybe I’d get married and have a couple of children along the way.

Instead, I dropped out of school at 17, left home, and ended up on the Las Vegas doorstep of a man I had met just once in a Fremont Street casino. I arrived with no diploma, no job experience, no money and no clue how I was going to get any of these things, or survive on my own.


The language is so incredibly passive. The author indeed "dropped out of school", but "ended up" in Vegas. Alien abduction? Stumbled onto the wrong bus? How does one "end up" in a different city without deciding to go there, short of being kidnapped?

Do you consider this rebuttal to my point? Yes, the language is passive. It's not exactly a fact that she was forced to self medicate with alcohol or strike up with a poorly adjusted, selfish man or leave her family. But this part is a fact: people with a history of a depression feel less in control of their lives and it shows up in their narration. It also appears to me (and I'm not trained in psychology outside of being a patient) that she was prone to or maybe even attracted to risk taking, and didn't have the self awareness to recognize that about herself.

To answer your question, I'm not sure if this is a rebuttal or not. What strikes me is that even after getting treatment, the narration remains passive. I understand that undiagnosed mental illness can have profound effects, but since many treatments still involve some sort of behavioral therapy component, I would have expected a bit more of an ackowledgment, at least, that some bad decisions were made, even if under extreme duress.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on February 28, 2020, 12:21:05 PM

To answer your question, I'm not sure if this is a rebuttal or not. What strikes me is that even after getting treatment, the narration remains passive. I understand that undiagnosed mental illness can have profound effects, but since many treatments still involve some sort of behavioral therapy component, I would have expected a bit more of an ackowledgment, at least, that some bad decisions were made, even if under extreme duress.

She could be dishonest or just still depressed or some of each.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on February 29, 2020, 01:06:40 PM
My roommates had been working at the restaurant, but had left before I did. They were really fast. They would steal a couple of minutes, go into the storeroom and inhale the nitrous oxide from the whipped cream. Then the waitresses would be overheard wondering why the cans had no pressure left.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on March 10, 2020, 09:18:24 AM
I'm about to stop reading any thread that has "coronavirus" anywhere in the title.

They're all starting to sound alike.

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: FishProf on March 23, 2020, 07:36:03 AM
Why is it that some posters insist others are dumb for advancing their ideas but never offer any sort of concrete counter-idea in response?  They may be right, but I can't take that seriously.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on March 23, 2020, 09:19:15 AM
Why is it that some posters insist others are dumb for advancing their ideas but never offer any sort of concrete counter-idea in response?  They may be right, but I can't take that seriously.

One standard reason is not knowing enough to know why a given problem is actually hard and what the trade-offs will have to be.

I smile every time I see youthful protesters who have simple solutions to very complex problems.  Yep, climate change is a problem and we've known it for decades.  You won't like what has to be done to fix the problem at the scales where it matters.  Yes, you just found out how bad the situation is.  Spend another 5, 10, 15, 20 years in the scientific and engineering discussions on what will have enough effect to matter and then get back to us on the "easy" solution that just requires political will.  If such a thing existed that wouldn't send the entire world back to an agrarian society or similar situation that means essentially giving up modern American/European/Canadian middle-class-and-better life, then we'd already be doing it.

Another standard reason is trying to solve only one small piece of the overall problem while others are much more concerned about some larger piece. 

I remember when Blocky was an infant with health problems.  We ended up with six adults in the house at one point for about a week.  At any given time, at least one adult was cleaning up the vomit from the last instance, someone was walking the baby, and at least one adult was walking through family medical history and interacting with doctors to plan for something else to try.  Yes, we needed someone to be heading up food so we ate regularly.  We did not, though, need that food to be handmade from scratch for things that are easily bought or delivered.  We really, really didn't need a new, handmade center piece for the table for every meal.

One of the six adults was shocked on being told that we are ordering food and no centerpieces will be on the table for the next week.  After all, that person was performing a valuable service and had, under other conditions, been complimented for centerpieces and homemade food.  That particular person flat out refused to take on any of the other chores (vomit is icky, walking a screaming (and possibly vomiting again) baby isn't fun, and there can't possibly be any medical problems inherited from this side of the family) and was hurt for several years about not being a valued member of the family during this time of crisis.

A third reason for not advancing ideas while dismissing other people's ideas is not understanding the difference between an exchange of ideas that is just shooting the breeze and describing/making changes.

For example, small higher ed institutions have been changing missions or closing or possibly changing missions multiple times and still ending up closing.  That is a fact, not a suggestion on what could happen if people wanted.  One doesn't have to win an argument on points in any venue for that fact to continue to be true.  Even if that is a stupid idea, it's a fact that has occurred and continues occurring in foreseeable ways.

The distribution of college degrees awarded has changed since the 1970s and there's no reason to believe that a shift will somehow go back to the way it was prior to 1970.  Again, one can be unhappy or other negative feelings about the reality, but that distribution change is the reality, not a proposal on the table that one can decide will not work.

Being dismissive of undesirable situations is one possible way to win a popular argument, but it doesn't affect the underlying reality at all.  Again, if we had great ideas that could mesh with the realities to solve the problem that "everyone" wants solved, not just one part, and doing so would have no other significant consequences, then those great ideas would be implemented.  Healthcare immediately comes to mind as something that many people agree would likely be better under a different system, but the fallout from changing immediately to a different system is huge and affects a lot of the average people who don't know enough of the complex system to see the immediate harsh consequences that give experts pause.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: marshwiggle on March 23, 2020, 09:41:41 AM
Why is it that some posters insist others are dumb for advancing their ideas but never offer any sort of concrete counter-idea in response?  They may be right, but I can't take that seriously.

One standard reason is not knowing enough to know why a given problem is actually hard and what the trade-offs will have to be.

I smile every time I see youthful protesters who have simple solutions to very complex problems.  Yep, climate change is a problem and we've known it for decades.  You won't like what has to be done to fix the problem at the scales where it matters.  Yes, you just found out how bad the situation is.  Spend another 5, 10, 15, 20 years in the scientific and engineering discussions on what will have enough effect to matter and then get back to us on the "easy" solution that just requires political will.  If such a thing existed that wouldn't send the entire world back to an agrarian society or similar situation that means essentially giving up modern American/European/Canadian middle-class-and-better life, then we'd already be doing it.


As an aside to that (which I guess fits here), we're getting a bit of a look at the cost to the economy of a fairly rapid worldwide transition to a lower carbon life.  There is less pollution and use of fossil fuels, but this is in no way sustainable, governements are going into massive deficits, and almost all recreational and social life is off the table. I'm curious to see how many people claim this is a desireable future.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on March 23, 2020, 09:43:58 AM
Time at home to get work done with very occasional trips out to forage for cheese, bread, and toilet paper?

Priceless.

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on March 31, 2020, 02:24:17 PM
If someone wants to report something to a moderator, then please use the "report to moderator" link that appears at the bottom of every post.

If someone is concerned that something might possibly violate some rule, then please use the "report to moderator" link that appears at the bottom of every post instead of having the discussion on the thread to bring more attention to something that the casual reader may have overlooked.

Merely saying "mods" in a post does not summon anyone or draw extra attention.

The fora has grown enough that I, at least, am no longer reading most posts most days, especially now that my job duties have increased as a result of stay-at-home orders.

Please use the "report to moderator" function for efficiency and record keeping.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on March 31, 2020, 06:20:05 PM
Thanks, and apologies.

I think I recalled that on the old forum the word, "mods" somehow got flagged to the mods, but maybe that was a cyber-urban myth.

I did it by habit the other day, so if it was I, I'm sorry.

Noted and will follow from now on!

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on April 01, 2020, 09:33:05 AM
I think I recalled that on the old forum the word, "mods" somehow got flagged to the mods, but maybe that was a cyber-urban myth.

Even if a mention of "mods" would summon someone, where should we look in a possibly lengthy thread?  Reporting a given post along with a brief explanation of why the report is being made helps us efficiently make decisions and have moderator discussions all in one place.

Not directed at anyone in particular, but since this is the asides thread, I will mention that sometimes, just like prayer, the moderator group decision is "nope, not going to intervene" even with a report, especially if it's just one person making one report on a heavily read thread with entirely predictable behavior given the known forumites involved.

As was recently discussed on a thread here regarding annual faculty reviews, without a record of a clear pattern of violations reported by multiple people nearly every time the behavior occurs with a record of undesirable consequences for the community at large, ongoing behavior by any specific forumite is obviously acceptable to the community.  (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=1140.0)  I write long, we have multiple political parties represented here, and any typical discussion on what should be done in the big picture tends to get heated quickly.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on April 01, 2020, 07:45:17 PM
Unrelated to the above....

The quadrangular shooting gallery takes on another thread...

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on April 11, 2020, 07:46:49 PM
If you'd rather be somewhere else, there's nothing stopping you from spending your valuable time and energy elsewhere.

I'd much rather have honest disagreement than niceness for the sake of niceness.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on April 12, 2020, 08:53:32 AM
When someone advocates kindness on the fora I think several things. Probably first thing I think is 'how nice.' Eventually though I wonder, is sarcasm 'not nice?' It's not Mr. Rogers kind of nice, but it's not necessary sinister, or anything to worry about. Some don't even consider it rude. Is it accepted as a rhetorical technique, or is it not?
Maybe we've all been indoors too long.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on April 13, 2020, 02:17:01 PM
I'm sure it is much too mean of me to point that that people who have contributed almost nothing to these fora by post count or word count aren't really making much of a threat by stating they will leave if their conditions aren't met.

Go.

Stay.

Whatever.

I'd rather have a vibrant enemy from whom I might learn something if I just keep reading.  I don't get royalties or anything from posting here so it's not like just having readers is doing anything for anyone.

Post something worth engaging and make your voice matter.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: namazu on April 13, 2020, 06:27:52 PM
Consider that there might be more "regulars", and more vibrant, engaging discussions, if people felt they could get a word in edgewise.

...And if every fourth thread weren't hijacked by the same handful of posters flogging their same few dead horses.  It's boorish and unconstructive to derail thread after unrelated thread to rehash the same tired arguments ad nauseam.  Most recently, the "what went wrong with academe and coronavirus" thread seems to have devolved into yet another pointless, off-topic "won't someone think of the adjuncts" vs. "beware the adjunct 'death march'" back-and-forth.  The "COVID and contingent faculty" thread has been overtaken by ad hominems about "failed academics", and so on...

"Civility" and "niceness" should not be invoked as cover to quash principled, honest disagreement.  And I love a well-placed zinger as much as the next guy.  But rudeness (which shows up in things like hijacking threads, calling people out as trolls too quickly or devaluing infrequent contributors, and being needlessly condescending or smarmy or cruelly snarky) does not make for a more vibrant forum.

I don't advocate heavy-handed moderation, and as a moderator on another forum, I appreciate the thankless work that goes into keeping the lights on.  That said, it would be nice if a few people would step back and quit running their mouths fingers every now and then  -- not because their ideas are odious or unworthy of consideration, but because their constant repetition and/or preening is tiresome.  But that might be too much to ask.  Since they occasionally have worthwhile things to say, I'm hesitant to ignore them altogether.  And of course, perhaps those tired arguments constitute the bulk of what remains here because so many other would-be participants have been turned off and left.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: hungry_ghost on April 13, 2020, 06:52:36 PM
Consider that there might be more "regulars", and more vibrant, engaging discussions, if people felt they could get a word in edgewise.

I do agree with this.

I am not sure about "flogging dead horses"--I've been skipping those threads for ages--but I think it's worth a moment for each of us to go to Members > Posts and see where we fall on posting frequency. 

I would like to hear more from some of the less frequent posters. 
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: dismalist on April 13, 2020, 07:30:13 PM
Speaking with Bismarck: The trick is knowing when to stop. :-)
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on April 13, 2020, 09:29:40 PM
Consider that there might be more "regulars", and more vibrant, engaging discussions, if people felt they could get a word in edgewise.

...And if every fourth thread weren't hijacked by the same handful of posters flogging their same few dead horses.  It's boorish and unconstructive to derail thread after unrelated thread to rehash the same tired arguments ad nauseam.  Most recently, the "what went wrong with academe and coronavirus" thread seems to have devolved into yet another pointless, off-topic "won't someone think of the adjuncts" vs. "beware the adjunct 'death march'" back-and-forth.  The "COVID and contingent faculty" thread has been overtaken by ad hominems about "failed academics", and so on...

There's nothing on that thread about adjunct faculty.

It could be that in general you hate to hear anything about how the adjunct experiences things, including discussions, differently than what you consider the 'main thing,' the full time faculty, and their experiences,  so every time you do, it seems like it can't be part of the discussion, or it's happening more often than it is.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: namazu on April 13, 2020, 09:39:11 PM
Consider that there might be more "regulars", and more vibrant, engaging discussions, if people felt they could get a word in edgewise.

...And if every fourth thread weren't hijacked by the same handful of posters flogging their same few dead horses.  It's boorish and unconstructive to derail thread after unrelated thread to rehash the same tired arguments ad nauseam.  Most recently, the "what went wrong with academe and coronavirus" thread seems to have devolved into yet another pointless, off-topic "won't someone think of the adjuncts" vs. "beware the adjunct 'death march'" back-and-forth.  The "COVID and contingent faculty" thread has been overtaken by ad hominems about "failed academics", and so on...

There's nothing on that thread about adjunct faculty.
My apologies; you are correct.  The phrase "death march" does appear there, though, and I believe it is way off-topic and unhelpful (and symptomatic of similar derails across the fora).

Quote from: mahagonny
It could be that in general you hate to hear anything about how the adjunct experiences things differently than what you consider the 'main thing,' the full time faculty, so every time you do, it seems like it can't be part of the discussion.
Huh?  I am not a full-time faculty member myself, and I support hearing from a wide variety of voices.  But I don't support thread hijacking.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on April 13, 2020, 09:43:44 PM
Consider that there might be more "regulars", and more vibrant, engaging discussions, if people felt they could get a word in edgewise.

...And if every fourth thread weren't hijacked by the same handful of posters flogging their same few dead horses.  It's boorish and unconstructive to derail thread after unrelated thread to rehash the same tired arguments ad nauseam.  Most recently, the "what went wrong with academe and coronavirus" thread seems to have devolved into yet another pointless, off-topic "won't someone think of the adjuncts" vs. "beware the adjunct 'death march'" back-and-forth.  The "COVID and contingent faculty" thread has been overtaken by ad hominems about "failed academics", and so on...

There's nothing on that thread about adjunct faculty.
My apologies; you are correct.  The phrase "death march" does appear there, though, and I believe it is way off-topic and unhelpful (and symptomatic of similar derails across the fora).

Quote from: mahagonny
It could be that in general you hate to hear anything about how the adjunct experiences things differently than what you consider the 'main thing,' the full time faculty, so every time you do, it seems like it can't be part of the discussion.
Huh?  I am not a full-time faculty member myself, and I support hearing from a wide variety of voices. But I don't support thread hijacking.

I'll be watching your responses to see if that is true.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: namazu on April 13, 2020, 09:54:34 PM
I'll be watching your responses to see if that is true.
Great! 

Will you also be avoiding absurd and unsubstantiated claims/speculations about other people's motives?  That would be lovely!
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on April 13, 2020, 10:10:57 PM
I'll be watching your responses to see if that is true.
Great! 

Will you also be avoiding absurd and unsubstantiated claims/speculations about other people's motives?  That would be lovely!

I can't promise you I won't continue to pay more attention to what people do than to what they say.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: namazu on April 13, 2020, 10:13:02 PM
I'll be watching your responses to see if that is true.
Will you also be avoiding absurd and unsubstantiated claims/speculations about other people's motives?  That would be lovely!
I can't promise you I won't continue to pay more attention to what people do than to what they say.
Fair enough, but that's not what I asked.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: marshwiggle on April 14, 2020, 06:05:28 AM
Consider that there might be more "regulars", and more vibrant, engaging discussions, if people felt they could get a word in edgewise.

...And if every fourth thread weren't hijacked by the same handful of posters flogging their same few dead horses.  It's boorish and unconstructive to derail thread after unrelated thread to rehash the same tired arguments ad nauseam.  Most recently, the "what went wrong with academe and coronavirus" thread seems to have devolved into yet another pointless, off-topic "won't someone think of the adjuncts" vs. "beware the adjunct 'death march'" back-and-forth.  The "COVID and contingent faculty" thread has been overtaken by ad hominems about "failed academics", and so on...

"Civility" and "niceness" should not be invoked as cover to quash principled, honest disagreement.  And I love a well-placed zinger as much as the next guy.  But rudeness (which shows up in things like hijacking threads, calling people out as trolls too quickly or devaluing infrequent contributors, and being needlessly condescending or smarmy or cruelly snarky) does not make for a more vibrant forum.

I don't advocate heavy-handed moderation, and as a moderator on another forum, I appreciate the thankless work that goes into keeping the lights on.  That said, it would be nice if a few people would step back and quit running their mouths fingers every now and then  -- not because their ideas are odious or unworthy of consideration, but because their constant repetition and/or preening is tiresome.  But that might be too much to ask.  Since they occasionally have worthwhile things to say, I'm hesitant to ignore them altogether.  And of course, perhaps those tired arguments constitute the bulk of what remains here because so many other would-be participants have been turned off and left.

I've created a new thread (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=1246.0) to discuss this.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on April 14, 2020, 10:21:48 AM
I'll be watching your responses to see if that is true.
Will you also be avoiding absurd and unsubstantiated claims/speculations about other people's motives?  That would be lovely!
I can't promise you I won't continue to pay more attention to what people do than to what they say.
Fair enough, but that's not what I asked.

I'm not sure what, specifically, bothers you but it may be this: if I say 'the tenure track hoards money, professional development opportunities, promotion opportunities, policymaking decisions, benefits, recognition in the field and workspace' then nobody's motives look good. Can bad things happen when people with only decent motives are present? Maybe. Does anyone care if the statement is true or not? Maybe. Do somebody's motives come out looking bad? Maybe. If so, whose? Matter of opinion. Will somebody be offended? Certainly. But that's not my problem. My problem is 'tell the truth about how the system works.'
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: FishProf on April 14, 2020, 10:37:36 AM
"Truth" is a pretty grandiose claim. 
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on April 15, 2020, 02:42:15 AM
"Truth" is a pretty grandiose claim.

Saying it or looking for it?

I'll be watching your responses to see if that is true.
Will you also be avoiding absurd and unsubstantiated claims/speculations about other people's motives?  That would be lovely!
I can't promise you I won't continue to pay more attention to what people do than to what they say.
Fair enough, but that's not what I asked.

I'm not sure what, specifically, bothers you but it may be this: if I say 'the tenure track hoards money, professional development opportunities, promotion opportunities, policymaking decisions, benefits, recognition in the field and workspace' then nobody's motives look good. Can bad things happen when people with only decent motives are present? Maybe. Does anyone care if the statement is true or not? Maybe. Do somebody's motives come out looking bad? Maybe. If so, whose? Matter of opinion. Will somebody be offended? Certainly. But that's not my problem. My problem is 'tell the truth about how the system works.'
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: FishProf on April 15, 2020, 03:36:46 AM
"Truth" is a pretty grandiose claim.

Saying it or looking for it?



Claiming it.  At which point, one is typically no longer looking for it.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on April 15, 2020, 07:25:09 AM

Claiming it.  At which point, one is typically no longer looking for it.

How does this suspect outcome compare with total apathy?

Quote
I'm not sure what, specifically, bothers you but it may be this: if I say 'the tenure track hoards money, professional development opportunities, promotion opportunities, policymaking decisions, benefits, recognition in the field and workspace' then nobody's motives look good.

Left out a few things: equipment, course offering opportunities, teaching assistants, office hours.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on April 15, 2020, 08:15:37 AM
<unrelated>

I have some bad news for you on the path you're on if one of your personal top values is stability.

I will indeed say, "I informed you thusly", when the time comes and it will definitely be gloating before I help you brainstorm on the next step.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: FishProf on April 17, 2020, 06:33:32 AM

Claiming it.  At which point, one is typically no longer looking for it.

How does this suspect outcome compare with total apathy?

Quote
I'm not sure what, specifically, bothers you but it may be this: if I say 'the tenure track hoards money, professional development opportunities, promotion opportunities, policymaking decisions, benefits, recognition in the field and workspace' then nobody's motives look good.

Left out a few things: equipment, course offering opportunities, teaching assistants, office hours.

I didn't understand your first response.  Your second is more of the same.

You have a particular experience as an adjunct.  SPADFY.

Acting as if your experience is the only "TRUTH" and your judgement about those you see as antagonists is tiresome and not very useful.  You are alienating the very people who could contribute to a solution (and many who already are).
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on April 17, 2020, 09:12:08 AM
Unrelated


This is the kind of whining and foot stomping that gives unions a bad name. Then the people at the bottom of the food chain pay for it when they try to get a cost of living raise or access to health insurance pool.

I have email work to do with students right now on what used to be my day off. Scanning and sending PDF's from yesterday's class that normally would have been paper handouts. Things are tough all over!
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on April 17, 2020, 10:43:51 AM

I didn't understand your first response.  Your second is more of the same.


And you are more of the same. You think people should defer to you as a matter of custom.

Quote
Acting as if your experience is the only "TRUTH" and your judgement about those you see as antagonists is tiresome and not very useful.  You are alienating the very people who could contribute to a solution (and many who already are).

I'm sure it is tiresome. I just don't see why your being tired of reading about problems  is a matter of general concern.

Quote
You have a particular experience as an adjunct.  SPADFY.

Right I expect some places it's better and some it's worse. there aren't too many who log on and say 'sure...fuck the adjuncts. That's how it works, isn't it?'
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: FishProf on April 17, 2020, 11:09:20 AM
I have never said or suggested ANY of the things you just accused me of - but thanks for making my point.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: bacardiandlime on April 18, 2020, 03:38:19 AM
Poster starts a thread identical to the one they started before. Like they were hoping for a different answer.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on April 21, 2020, 04:30:34 AM
Poster starts a thread identical to the one they started before. Like they were hoping for a different answer.

Hope springs eternal in many hearts, especially in the face of all evidence and unexpected consensus on probable outcomes.  Those underdog movies are very influential among certain adults.

<unrelated>
Our trips to the grocery store are not great.  We have been unable to get facial tissue for a month.  Meat is iffy, especially if you'd like a particular type at less than several multiples of the normal cost.  Fresh vegetables were iffy under normal conditions this time of year; now, canned is very much preferred as being much less wasteful.  I haven't gone myself, but I don't see any reason why Mr. Mer would be lying about what we can get and why facial tissue has not been bought when he's the allergy sufferer.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: archaeo42 on April 21, 2020, 04:39:21 AM
<unrelated>
Our trips to the grocery store are not great.  We have been unable to get facial tissue for a month.  Meat is iffy, especially if you'd like a particular type at less than several multiples of the normal cost.  Fresh vegetables were iffy under normal conditions this time of year; now, canned is very much preferred as being much less wasteful.  I haven't gone myself, but I don't see any reason why Mr. Mer would be lying about what we can get and why facial tissue has not been bought when he's the allergy sufferer.

Any chance of ordering some online? I have to admit, I was surprised spousal unit was able to get 2 multipacks of tissues on the last big grocery run while nearly all the other paper products were sold out.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on April 21, 2020, 08:45:38 AM
<unrelated>
Our trips to the grocery store are not great.  We have been unable to get facial tissue for a month.  Meat is iffy, especially if you'd like a particular type at less than several multiples of the normal cost.  Fresh vegetables were iffy under normal conditions this time of year; now, canned is very much preferred as being much less wasteful.  I haven't gone myself, but I don't see any reason why Mr. Mer would be lying about what we can get and why facial tissue has not been bought when he's the allergy sufferer.

Any chance of ordering some online? I have to admit, I was surprised spousal unit was able to get 2 multipacks of tissues on the last big grocery run while nearly all the other paper products were sold out.

We did get a nice package of handkerchiefs from online ordering.  The powdered milk took 3 weeks to get to us and it's not at all looking good for paper products in a timely manner.

We still have adequate other paper products, but it's weird to be in allergy season and only have one regular box and two little boxes on the pantry shelf when we usually go through multiple regular boxes per week during this season.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: Puget on April 21, 2020, 10:13:52 AM
<unrelated>
Our trips to the grocery store are not great.  We have been unable to get facial tissue for a month.  Meat is iffy, especially if you'd like a particular type at less than several multiples of the normal cost.  Fresh vegetables were iffy under normal conditions this time of year; now, canned is very much preferred as being much less wasteful.  I haven't gone myself, but I don't see any reason why Mr. Mer would be lying about what we can get and why facial tissue has not been bought when he's the allergy sufferer.

Any chance of ordering some online? I have to admit, I was surprised spousal unit was able to get 2 multipacks of tissues on the last big grocery run while nearly all the other paper products were sold out.

We did get a nice package of handkerchiefs from online ordering.  The powdered milk took 3 weeks to get to us and it's not at all looking good for paper products in a timely manner.

We still have adequate other paper products, but it's weird to be in allergy season and only have one regular box and two little boxes on the pantry shelf when we usually go through multiple regular boxes per week during this season.

Amazon is prioritizing Subscribe & Save orders over one time orders, so IF you can add the products you usually get regularly as a recurring order (recurring can be as little as every 6 months, and you can always cancel or skip deliveries later) that can ensure a steady supply. That is how I now find myself in possession of 48 roles of my usual TP and a stockpile of Kleenex. I tend to put all the stuff I don't want to run out of and don't want to have to think about on there-- cat food and litter, trash bags, bathroom items, etc.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on April 22, 2020, 06:21:06 AM
<unrelated>
Our trips to the grocery store are not great.  We have been unable to get facial tissue for a month.  Meat is iffy, especially if you'd like a particular type at less than several multiples of the normal cost.  Fresh vegetables were iffy under normal conditions this time of year; now, canned is very much preferred as being much less wasteful.  I haven't gone myself, but I don't see any reason why Mr. Mer would be lying about what we can get and why facial tissue has not been bought when he's the allergy sufferer.

Any chance of ordering some online? I have to admit, I was surprised spousal unit was able to get 2 multipacks of tissues on the last big grocery run while nearly all the other paper products were sold out.

We did get a nice package of handkerchiefs from online ordering.  The powdered milk took 3 weeks to get to us and it's not at all looking good for paper products in a timely manner.

We still have adequate other paper products, but it's weird to be in allergy season and only have one regular box and two little boxes on the pantry shelf when we usually go through multiple regular boxes per week during this season.

Amazon is prioritizing Subscribe & Save orders over one time orders, so IF you can add the products you usually get regularly as a recurring order (recurring can be as little as every 6 months, and you can always cancel or skip deliveries later) that can ensure a steady supply. That is how I now find myself in possession of 48 roles of my usual TP and a stockpile of Kleenex. I tend to put all the stuff I don't want to run out of and don't want to have to think about on there-- cat food and litter, trash bags, bathroom items, etc.

We purposely don't have any standing subscriptions with Amazon and only order things we cannot get easily in town.  We're in a small enough town that if the grocery store goes under, the next choice is an hour away.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: ciao_yall on April 22, 2020, 07:44:20 AM
Poster starts a thread identical to the one they started before. Like they were hoping for a different answer.

Hope springs eternal in many hearts, especially in the face of all evidence and unexpected consensus on probable outcomes.  Those underdog movies are very influential among certain adults.

<unrelated>
Our trips to the grocery store are not great.  We have been unable to get facial tissue for a month.  Meat is iffy, especially if you'd like a particular type at less than several multiples of the normal cost.  Fresh vegetables were iffy under normal conditions this time of year; now, canned is very much preferred as being much less wasteful.  I haven't gone myself, but I don't see any reason why Mr. Mer would be lying about what we can get and why facial tissue has not been bought when he's the allergy sufferer.

Interesting. Plenty of it in the SF Bay Area, and I have been to stores in several counties. We aren't having much of an allergy season yet.

TP and paper towels, on the other hand, are scarce. The other day I found multipacks of both (interthreaduality) and I still feel a sense of glee that we are now stocked up for the duration.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on April 22, 2020, 09:39:40 AM
Poster starts a thread identical to the one they started before. Like they were hoping for a different answer.

Hope springs eternal in many hearts, especially in the face of all evidence and unexpected consensus on probable outcomes.  Those underdog movies are very influential among certain adults.

<unrelated>
Our trips to the grocery store are not great.  We have been unable to get facial tissue for a month.  Meat is iffy, especially if you'd like a particular type at less than several multiples of the normal cost.  Fresh vegetables were iffy under normal conditions this time of year; now, canned is very much preferred as being much less wasteful.  I haven't gone myself, but I don't see any reason why Mr. Mer would be lying about what we can get and why facial tissue has not been bought when he's the allergy sufferer.

Interesting. Plenty of it in the SF Bay Area, and I have been to stores in several counties. We aren't having much of an allergy season yet.

TP and paper towels, on the other hand, are scarce. The other day I found multipacks of both (interthreaduality) and I still feel a sense of glee that we are now stocked up for the duration.

We started allergy season early here.  We have an interesting local phenomenon where most people become allergic to the pollen of a specific, very-common-here-and-hard-to-irradicate tree after living here 5-10 years.  Thus, "everyone" who has been here for at least 10 years all suffer together when that tree blooms. 

I'm not allergic yet, but some days with the wind from the correct direction, one can see the waves of pollen coming from the forest and no one needs to be allergic for the resulting physical clogging from just the sheer amount of pollen along with the non-insignificant-amounts-of dust carried on the wind as well.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on April 26, 2020, 06:40:19 AM
In some cases, there is only one ethical message for responsible adults to promote, even if the harshest consequences for going against the message aren't immediate for everyone every time.

Don't drink and drive.

Don't walk on the train tracks.

Don't play in the street.

Don't go to graduate school in fields where most of the jobs that advertise for that specific degree in that specific field are faculty jobs.


To advise otherwise in an effort to be even-handed/civil/restrained should be met with responses along the lines of "Blue-Check Twitter savaged The New York Times over a tweet and an article that carried the mind-boggling suggestion that only 'some experts' believe that President Donald Trump’s suggestions about the internal consumption of disinfectant are dangerous." (http://"Blue-Check Twitter savaged The New York Times over a tweet and an article that carried the mind-boggling suggestion that only 'some experts' believe that President Donald Trump’s suggestions about the internal consumption of disinfectant are dangerous.")

Sometimes, there really is only one side to a discussion for those who have all the relevant data and want the best for all involved.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on April 27, 2020, 04:22:17 AM
In some cases, there is only one ethical message for responsible adults to promote, even if the harshest consequences for going against the message aren't immediate for everyone every time.

Don't drink and drive.

Don't walk on the train tracks.

Don't play in the street.

Don't go to graduate school in fields where most of the jobs that advertise for that specific degree in that specific field are faculty jobs.


To advise otherwise in an effort to be even-handed/civil/restrained should be met with responses along the lines of "Blue-Check Twitter savaged The New York Times over a tweet and an article that carried the mind-boggling suggestion that only 'some experts' believe that President Donald Trump’s suggestions about the internal consumption of disinfectant are dangerous." (http://"Blue-Check Twitter savaged The New York Times over a tweet and an article that carried the mind-boggling suggestion that only 'some experts' believe that President Donald Trump’s suggestions about the internal consumption of disinfectant are dangerous.")

Sometimes, there really is only one side to a discussion for those who have all the relevant data and want the best for all involved.

You prompt me to ask:
Your problem is not the people who pursue the graduate studies. It's the people who offer them and the colleges that advertise them.  By your own account, you couldn't do what they do and maintain the sense of ethics that you see yourself having. And you are convinced your sense of ethics is the only one responsible adults may have. So what are you going to do now that you see you are not being listened to? Are you going to get a plan to shut them down?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on April 28, 2020, 09:08:26 AM
The seductive part of the Professor Sparklepony pitch is that obtaining a faculty job at a regional comprehensive or a S(mall) Liberal Arts College doesn't seem like it would be that hard, regardless of what the numbers state.  After all, once one is ready to attend graduate school, one has interacted with many faculty members who are clearly normal people, not untouchable, unattainable gods.

Those faculty are smart, hardworking, and knowledgeable people, so becoming a faculty member at one of those places seems achievable based on knowing those real people who have those jobs.  Those folks aren't far-removed-from-normal-life like literal rock stars or NBA/NFL/MLB draftees.  They are normal people who shop at the community grocery store, wear clothes from Walmart, and have families with snotty-nosed kids.  Coming up to the level of qualifications that the faculty have will be hard work, but it doesn't seem unattainable in the same way that becoming LeBron James or Justin Bieber does.

Even the "don't go" message from Professor Sparklepony's more realistic neighbor across the hall usually doesn't have the necessary effect, because that's another normal person who is trying to explain that people don't get the job that that realistic neighbor has.  The conflict between message and medium is pretty clear.  Even the "you can't have my job" message will be hard to hear from someone who clearly has that job so the job exists and there is no notice like "we're closing the entire X department next month to have zero professors" prominently posted.

Statistics mean little to people who aren't already numbers folks.  There's a 10% chance of success registers, as it should, at non-zero.  However, rephrasing that as 90% change (i.e., extremely probable outcome) still won't get through to the people who can do basic math because that's still not 100%.

Even flat out numbers tend to not work because the fields with the worst job prospects are generally the ones in which one can skate on math knowledge.  Nevertheless, in case it helps someone, I'm doing a different calculation in an effort to help with messaging.

Say a field has 1200 PhDs graduated every year and 800 TT jobs.  This is a brand-new field so this is year one (to make the math simple and the point crystal clear) for a pretty good situation.

Assumptions:

* All of the jobs of a given year are filled.

* Everyone who takes a job comes has never previously had one.

* The number of TT jobs remains constant at 800 per year.

* The graduating cohort number remains constant at 1200 per year.

Years of Cohorts     New Jobs     Pool Size    Running Total TT   Still Looking

1                               800              1200        800                    400

2                               800              1600       1600                   800

3                               800              2000       2400                  1200

4                               800              2400       3200                  1600

5                               800              2800       4000                  2000

...

10                              800             4800       8000                  4000

20                              800             8800      16000                 8000



At the end of year five, there are 4000 people gainfully employed as TT faculty, but 2000 people still looking who are qualified in the same sense. 

With a 2/3 success rate, but a continuing growing pool of those who hang in there another year on the job search, only about half the qualified people get jobs.

It is left as an exercise to the reader to do the calculation, when:

* the jobs/newly qualified people changes to 0.1 instead of 0.67

* the number of jobs available every year decreases through a combination of allowing other qualifications for similar jobs (e.g., adjuncts with master's degrees), cuts to majors that correspond to cuts with faculty, and larger sections

* the pools grow faster because the number of people becoming qualified is not decreasing at nearly the same rate as the jobs are declining and the assumption of everyone who gets a job didn't previously have one is violated so the experienced TT people will get the new TT jobs and not leave a corresponding vacancy.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on April 28, 2020, 09:26:42 AM
In some cases, there is only one ethical message for responsible adults to promote, even if the harshest consequences for going against the message aren't immediate for everyone every time.

Don't drink and drive.

Don't walk on the train tracks.

Don't play in the street.

Don't go to graduate school in fields where most of the jobs that advertise for that specific degree in that specific field are faculty jobs.


To advise otherwise in an effort to be even-handed/civil/restrained should be met with responses along the lines of "Blue-Check Twitter savaged The New York Times over a tweet and an article that carried the mind-boggling suggestion that only 'some experts' believe that President Donald Trump’s suggestions about the internal consumption of disinfectant are dangerous." (http://"Blue-Check Twitter savaged The New York Times over a tweet and an article that carried the mind-boggling suggestion that only 'some experts' believe that President Donald Trump’s suggestions about the internal consumption of disinfectant are dangerous.")

Sometimes, there really is only one side to a discussion for those who have all the relevant data and want the best for all involved.

You prompt me to ask:
Your problem is not the people who pursue the graduate studies. It's the people who offer them and the colleges that advertise them.  By your own account, you couldn't do what they do and maintain the sense of ethics that you see yourself having. And you are convinced your sense of ethics is the only one responsible adults may have. So what are you going to do now that you see you are not being listened to? Are you going to get a plan to shut them down?

Libertarian here, so people are allowed to make bad choices after being given all the best advice.  My ethical duty is to say, "Don't play on the train tracks", ensure reasonable signs exist, and that physical barriers make it hard for someone to inadvertently wander on.  If adults want to shout insults at me while climbing over the fence and flipping me the bird, then my conscience is clear.  I just hope the train passengers don't end up paying the price for someone who refused to heed the message for the common good.

I disagree that my problem is with the people who offer graduate programs that do indeed prepare people to be faculty as well as allow for great depth of study in a particular field with proper mentorship and acculturation to being an expert in that field.  We need faculty in all fields, even those where far more people want full-time faculty jobs than we can reasonable support based on any accounting method.  We need those faculty to be excellent. 

From just a systems standpoint, we cannot reduce the number of graduate students in those fields to zero because we will need replacements and options on growth in areas we don't currently know exist (e.g., digital humanities didn't exist 100 years ago, but is certainly something in which we need some experts).

From a good conscience standpoint, we cannot limit education to only those who will obtain a specific job postgraduation and still call ourselves supporters of higher ed.  Education is not just about jobs, as people repeat ad nauseam wherever humanities folks gather.  That assertion is no less true at the graduate level.  It is a mistake to attempt to change graduate education to focusing on getting a specific job postgraduation for "everyone" in the cohort instead of promoting lifelong, diverse education that explores the world in terms of what humans do for work, intellectual satisfaction, and problem solving that needs to be done such that pay is available.

However, the blunt message has to be "don't go to grad school in these fields" and not bury the message in a lot of caveats so that people who can thrive at doing anything else will go do that and be a success there instead of contributing to the glut in the academic job market for certain fields. 

It's much easier to ignore a message when it has a lot of caveats, details, and possibilities instead of being a stark "Don't".  I've been in situations in which I made a left turn on red with 8 lanes where that wasn't legal.  However, the rule of "no left on red" gains nothing by the special case caveats of "unless it's midnight, there is no other traffic, and you've waited literally 10 minutes by the clock after you started timing so it's clear that light is not going to change to allow you to legally proceed".

Thus, I'm going to continue to double down on "Don't go in these fields" in an effort to affect individual humans to choose something good for them instead of assuming I know what's best for everyone in a complex system and insisting on putting more and more rules as each new problem arises from a complex system that will be messy since individual humans are involved.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on April 28, 2020, 09:42:37 AM
Then you are stating that 'we' need people who listened to your vehement, repetitious 'advice' (I'd call it more of a command) and ignored it, but that is for them to figure out.
When should you not be ignored then?
Not logical.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: FishProf on May 01, 2020, 02:55:47 PM
[Not Related]

If your post contains an ad hominem or name-calling, I'll ignore it.   If a lot of them do, I'll ignore you.

Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: dismalist on May 01, 2020, 03:25:19 PM
The trick is knowing when to stop.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on May 03, 2020, 12:56:30 PM
For those who need to hear again a different way:

Stay out of the (higher ed) arroyos!

An arroyo is the path where the flash flood will occur and wash everything, often drowning humans or animals who are present when the flood comes.

It doesn't matter how good a hiker an individual is.  If that person is in the arroyo when the flood comes, then that person loses to the big mass of water.

It doesn't matter how good your hiking boots are, how good your walking stick is, or how often you check the local weather because the relevant weather may be 100 miles away.  If you are in the arroyo when the flood comes, then you are going to have some dangerous times.

it doesn't matter how many times you have previously hiked, even in other arroyos, and was fine because no flash flood happened.  If you are in the arroyo when the flood comes, then your previous experiences are of no relevance.

What are the higher ed arroyos?

* Being contingent faculty as your majority source of income

* Being at an underresourced institution (public or private) with consistently lower than desired enrollment or refusal to limit enrollment so all students get a good quality

* Going to graduate school in certain fields where the PhD is mostly valuable for a faculty position and working only towards the faculty job.

* Focusing on something other than comps and dissertation while in grad school for the fields where a PhD is a solid credential for a professional job

Yep, the flash floods are racing down certain higher ed arroyos towards the unwary and it's probably too late for many to do much about it.  In case it isn't too late "GET OUT OF THE ARROYOS!".
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on May 03, 2020, 01:11:54 PM
Then you are stating that 'we' need people who listened to your vehement, repetitious 'advice' (I'd call it more of a command) and ignored it, but that is for them to figure out.
I am stating that I will continue to keep standing in front of the dangerous areas and shouting, "This is a really, really bad idea.  Stop for a few minutes and let me provide information you may not have."  We get new people all the time who don't know that certain actions are bad ideas, the extent to which they are bad ideas, and why the advice would be don't, when it's clear that so many people do it (much like drunk driving in which individuals can go years of weekly risks with nothing happening).

However, my conscience is clear once I've delivered the warning and it's clear that someone has decided to make a poor decision even after acknowledging my warnings.  I have no obligation to spend my resources, time, or energy to rescue people from the entirely foreseeable consequences of the actions they chose after the warnings were clear, loud, repetitious, and otherwise hard to avoid.  If adults choose to ignore good advice, then that's on them.

If I'm right and someone is in the arroyo/on the tracks/in the street at the wrong time to end up smacked, then I get no benefit and yet someone else is damaged.  I don't even have all that much sympathy because of all the warnings.

If the timing is such that a particular someone managed to avoid being flooded/runover/hurt during one excursion, that doesn't make me wrong about the general advice.  It merely means someone got lucky this time in a dangerous situation.  The advice still stands that the smart bet is to avoid the situation.

Even if I am somehow horribly mistaken and equivalent traintracks/arroyos/streets aren't dangerous, nothing terrible happens to people who heed the advice and do something else that society needs.  We all win when people do something that has a high probability of a good result instead of betting on being the last one standing in the danger zone.

I can't in good conscience advocate that we shut down all the graduate schools because that's not the right action.  There's nothing intrinsic to graduate school itself that means people will be doing something foolish.  The right action is to change the landscape one person at a time such that going to graduate school is not the equivalent of people hiking in the arroyo and hoping that not too many people get hurt during the flash flood that happens every rainy season.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on May 23, 2020, 01:58:52 PM
Unrelated to any of the above.

I knew I shouldn't reply.

Back to my "ignore" list you go, you do.

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on May 29, 2020, 08:07:39 PM
I knew it...the rat is about the most resilient creature we have...https://www.businessinsider.com/amazing-facts-about-new-york-citys-rats-2015-9
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: bacardiandlime on June 03, 2020, 01:34:14 PM
The fact that you thought it was necessary to post that rather (unintentionally) proves your point.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: archaeo42 on June 08, 2020, 06:23:54 AM
WTF did I just read?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on June 08, 2020, 06:36:49 AM
Guess I was channelling George Carlin. The wisecrack should have been here instead of on the thread.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: ab_grp on June 08, 2020, 03:40:19 PM
Is this some kind of psychological experiment?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: archaeo42 on June 10, 2020, 06:20:17 AM
Is this some kind of psychological experiment?

If it is I think a lot of people are failing.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: downer on June 10, 2020, 08:31:09 AM
I think some people are just bored and lonely.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on June 10, 2020, 10:12:17 AM
i think I saw you doing standup in the Poconos.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on June 13, 2020, 07:30:19 PM
Quote
Sometimes what sounds pretty wild in the abstract is actually much more reasonable when the focus is more specific.

Taken completely out of context, yet this describes many of my conference papers.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on June 22, 2020, 09:15:26 PM
Maybe the most bland, inadequate thing circulating today is the idea that in order to understand black people better, we need to understand one thing about them. The one thing about them is, like us, they are individuals. I can listen to Al Sharpton, John McWhorter, Dave Chappelle, George Floyd's mom, and get a piece of truth from each.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on June 23, 2020, 04:19:13 AM
...it wasn't really clunky wording at all. Quite precise and effective.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on June 23, 2020, 09:47:41 AM
<probably unrelated>

Let's summarize:

* advice from qualified professionals who have held/currently hold the relevant positions and have kept up on the state of the situation with frequent citations to literature

* advice from people who cite nothing and are proud of being only loosely affiliated with their own institution, let alone the broader environment

For people who really, truly, no foolin' believe in critical thinking and evaluating sources, the advice should not be weighted equally.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 26, 2020, 03:26:10 PM
My pole is <10 feet, so.


(EDIT: Curses. I used the wrong alligator. Stupid me.)
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: permanent imposter on June 26, 2020, 03:32:56 PM
I think I understand your frustrations during the current political climate: you feel that people are making a big deal out of nothing and you feel like you are being forced to conform. In other words, you feel like you are in the minority. But no one is literally forcing you to do or say anything. This is not the Cultural Revolution by any stretch of the imagination. I think you are a being a little too sensitive about your circumstances when for others, literal lives are at stake.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on June 26, 2020, 07:17:49 PM
I'm concerned about having work in the fall, and the president of the college is referring to 'Black Lives Matter' in his communications with us  as though it should be assumed we are all aligned with this particular identity politics movement. So yes, I am a bit worried about how I can fit in in these new turbulent times. Fortunately I'm not on campus so I'm not pressured to have a 'Black Lives Matter' sticker on the office door, for instance. but that kind of situation may be coming.
From the Black Lives Matter webpage, "What We Believe"

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."

Not gonna endorse this type of thing. The dissolution of the family has been one of the worst setbacks.

Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: FishProf on June 27, 2020, 06:54:46 AM
Avoiding a derail.

I too have radio silence in an entirely online course.  With <1 week to go, 3 students have done Zero work, made no contact, and have not dropped.

It's a good thing I don't round up.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on June 28, 2020, 07:30:39 PM
<unrelated>

When the bottom falls out and it's actually your life that's affected, I will laugh in your face if you are dumb enough to post anything along the lines of "How could I have possibly known?"

I'll feel bad for the people who just got unlucky and were unable to get out of a bad situation once they realized, but not you with your hands over your ears singing so loudly to drown out any actual advice and knowledge.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: arcturus on June 29, 2020, 05:45:02 AM
<unrelated>

I must be getting old and grumpy. The combination of positivity and naivete grates like fingernails on a chalkboard.  Can't we just go back to beating the dead horses again?

Edited to add: Please note that no actual equines were damaged in this or in any other posting referenced herein.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on June 29, 2020, 07:55:45 AM
Related to the above.

I saw that cloud forming, but a bit of fresh air can help clear the negative naivete, too.

Not that we have any of that...

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: FishProf on July 03, 2020, 07:58:05 AM
How is that different from saying "I think"?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on July 03, 2020, 03:12:51 PM
^Unrelated..

"Hey, it's just a phrase. Why get all bent outta shape about it?

We don't mean anything unkind, you know; we're just kiddin' around.

Can't you take a joke?"

(Otherwise known as "gander sauce")
M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: FishProf on July 08, 2020, 09:21:08 AM
I read that as "quiet as a MOOSE". 

I thought "now that is excellent antiphrasis".   Nope.  Just poor reading.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: apl68 on July 09, 2020, 07:19:20 AM
If somebody at work brings garden-fresh tomatoes to share, and you decide to put one in your book bag to take home for salads, be sure to remember that you put it in the bag when you get home.  Otherwise you may not find it again until a week or two later.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: FishProf on July 09, 2020, 08:55:15 AM
The same goes for blackberries in your trunk.  Always double check after shopping.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: ab_grp on July 09, 2020, 09:12:43 AM
Another item not to leave buried at the bottom of your work bag for several weeks: banana.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on July 09, 2020, 10:35:40 AM
Unrelated to the above:

   Contrarians gonna be contrary.

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: FishProf on July 09, 2020, 01:49:43 PM
Unrelated to the above:

   Contrarians gonna be contrary.

M.

We are NOT!
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on July 09, 2020, 05:49:07 PM
Unrelated to the above:

   Contrarians gonna be contrary.

M.

We are NOT!

Thanks, I needed that chuckle.

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: FishProf on July 10, 2020, 07:07:56 AM
Unrelated to the above:

   Contrarians gonna be contrary.

M.

We are NOT!

Thanks, I needed that chuckle.

M.

No you didn't!
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on July 13, 2020, 02:59:15 AM
^ Unrelated...

Thornton Wilder knew something we're forgetting.

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on July 18, 2020, 08:47:15 AM
unrelated

I started the thread with that link.

I've posted more specific links to parts of that page as the discussion progressed.

That's a zero for doing the reading before posting.  Remember, the reading score is 15% of your final grade.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on July 18, 2020, 01:20:23 PM
unrelated

So when it's your area of expertise being relevant as underinformed people repeating standard mass media talking points, your word of what's just unacceptable should be taken as law because the poster is just wrong.

When it's my area of expertise and you're the one repeating standard mass media talking points, you don't understand why the assertion that you're just wrong should be allowed to stand without an extensive case on why it's wrong using sources you accept that are the ones that experts won't use.

Interesting.  Is that the kind of inclusive, critical thinking you teach your students as part of mandatory liberal arts education?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on July 19, 2020, 08:55:16 PM
Sometimes it's amazing how people will show up on a thread, post some lame put down with no substantive rebuttal or committing to a point of view, and think that is meaningful, just because they're part of a mob.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: aside on July 24, 2020, 04:08:46 PM
[unrelated:]

Wow, I feel like I'm being sucked back toward the 1980s by a vortex of willful ignorance ...
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: RatGuy on July 26, 2020, 09:55:20 AM
Given your handle and the content of your posts, I can only conclude that you're absolutely terrible at your job.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on July 26, 2020, 12:36:53 PM
Given your handle and the content of your posts, I can only conclude that you're absolutely terrible at your job.

Mom still loves me anyway.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on July 27, 2020, 06:44:02 AM
As a public service since apparently college general education didn't cover it, this post is an overview on how to think about science in the public mass media.

As Carl Sagan used to say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

If you read something that is drastically at odds with all previous experience, then ask for more evidence.  The more outlandish the claim, the more evidence there should be.

For example, "Children, the known disease vectors for all kinds of respiratory viruses, don't get this particular virus and can't pass it along" is an extraordinary claim for anyone who has spent time with groups of children and got every cold that comes along.



The exact phrase "no evidence exists" covers two situations that are opposite in meaning so it's important to know the entire context.

The first meaning is the normal English usage equivalent to "We looked really, really hard.  We checked every possibility that we could dream up and then we contacted all our friends and colleagues.  Everyone working on this problem has exhausted everything we could manage and, despite prior expectations of how things work, there is no evidence that this particular thing works that way."

The second meaning is common in interim reports for new investigations and is equivalent to "We have no evidence because we haven't look at that aspect yet.  No conclusions should be drawn because we just don't know how that factor plays in this case."

The media is prone to pulling "no evidence exists" from a report and treating it always as "because we looked really, really hard" instead of "we are doing an interim report on what we do know".

The children and Covid-19 come to mind again.  The questions early on in scientific circles included:

* Did you actually test large numbers of children for SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes Covid-19)?

* Would children have had an opportunity to be infected since schools and most daycares closed so quickly and early?

* (later) Now that we know about asymptomatic spread and large numbers of adults test positive with minor/no symptoms, did you really test enough children when they were in good position to have been infected and many of them could have been asymptomatic or easily dismissed as having minor symptoms for some other reason?



A summary of a summary of a press release with the most strongly stated claim prominently displayed as a news headline is not scientific evidence of anything, regardless of how prestigious the outlet for the original article or the affiliation of the authors.

https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/882:_Significant gives a funny comic with the explanation on how statistics works in the case of "significant" in science meaning "low probability of random chance, but still possible it is random chance".  Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, especially when there's no plausible mechanism or the information out in the world is very sparse.

Common drawbacks to interim science reports include:

* small sample size. 
    Some of the current vaccine research is being done on fewer than 10 people as a first step.

* limited applicability outside the exact context 
    An early report on opening schools was a model that didn't even use any data from the current situation.  The scientists made an input assumption that transmission would be low in schools and the model returned the result that transmission in schools would be a minor factor.  That's one way to verify a model (i.e., does the model work under easily checked input conditions to give consistent outputs), but that's not the same as transmission actually being low.

    The in vitro (lab conditions that don't involve a live host), in vivo (lab conditions with a live host), and "out in the wild" (whatever would happen in normal life) are also contexts that matter.  "Everyone" laughed when President Trump asked about taking some in vitro results related to killing the virus and putting them into humans, but that same level of lack of awareness often makes the news headlines as "Scientists find X is important to killing the virus" where X is going to translate as well as injecting bleach into humans.


Identifying something as a primary factor is absolutely not the same as identifying something as an overwhelmingly, within rounding of sole, factor

Again, the reports in the mass media tend to pick a headline that is misleading and glosses all the details, if not actually being wrong.

An an accessible example,  I generally go to work in three ways:

* 50% of the time, I drive my own car.
* 40% of the time, I ride the bus.
* 10% of the time, I get a ride with a neighbor.

The primary way I get to work is driving my own car.  However, ignoring the times I ride the bus or get a ride with a neighbor is just silly if the question is "can I give you a ride home?"  The probability is about half that I won't have a car at work.

The current public health mantra is "stay home, wear a mask when out, stay away from people, wash your hands, don't touch your face, and sanitize high touch surfaces" because that is what we know about how viruses spread.  Any claims that this particular virus doesn't spread through high-touch surfaces when sick people are present is again an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.


Exact numbers are meaningless without the error bars/uncertainties on the inputs propagated to the outputs.

A typical gen ed lab course will cover the difference between precision and accuracy. (https://manoa.hawaii.edu/exploringourfluidearth/physical/world-ocean/map-distortion/practices-science-precision-vs-accuracy)

When we get to statistical science, even statistical physical science, we also have to think about uncertainty (and actual errors) in the inputs that will affect the outputs.  A good primer with general-public-accessible-explanations of aleatory and epistemic uncertainty is available to those who click on this sentence.  (https://herdingcats.typepad.com/my_weblog/2013/05/aleatory-and-epistemic-uncertainty-both-create-risk.html)

The short version is aleatory uncertainty is baked into the inputs themselves.  For example, the US has a wide range of humans and we can't just pick a "typical" human and be confident we got anything right.  The proper scientific thing to do is run a bunch of scenarios with various inputs (if modeling) or do many case studies with a wide variety of people to help ensure our input distribution will be about representative and thus our output distributions will cover most cases.  The results, then, may have a significant spread that is real and will not get better with more samples because the distribution is in the inputs.

Epistemic uncertainty means we just don't know all the inputs yet to good enough precision (and that's aside from any errors in measurement or modeling or interpretation of our measurements since often what you want to know is not the thing you can measure).  Especially early on in a new situation, we will have big error bars on the inputs, which should mean large error bars on the outputs.  Looking at images on the CDC webpage, one can see that some models (and modeling groups) put good-sized regions indicating their probable uncertainty. (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/forecasting-us-previous.html)

Any report of results that has something pretty bland as an uncertainty or error bar like "plus or minus 10 percent" or "plus or minus <round number like 50 or 10000>" basically screams "we didn't do any kind of analysis on the uncertainties".


Government documents that are clearly interim reports done by literature review should not be given the same credibility as reports written by a panel of world experts in that exact field to address a specific question.

It's not rare for interns or temporary science folks in a government agency to be assigned to write an overview for a given purpose and be given just 6-8 weeks to do so.  That type of government document is probably good enough to give a snapshot of the current state of the literature, but should not be given the same authoritative scientific status as the results of a government report that has a ton of authors with their affiliations on the front pages.

Knowing the difference is a key part of being able to assess the credibility of the information.  Even with a blue-ribbon panel report, one wants to apply the context and drawbacks questions while reading instead of taking the bulleted list of summary points as the final word.


Summary

Critical thinking matters out in the world every bit as much as it matters in a general education classroom.  Selecting good primary sources (which is definitely not the news) is key to starting any discussion.  However, one must then do the compare and contrast among all the good primary sources as well as other knowledge bases before just blindly asserting any one sentence as true, regardless of the prestige of the outlet or the authors.  Arguing from authority can be legitimate, but only if you start from doing the real research instead of just the news or the first hit on Google that seems relevant.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: hungry_ghost on July 27, 2020, 09:26:21 AM
If someone is observed to be angry, erratic, and unhappy and then commits suicide, can we all just say "RIP"?
Is the sh!t throwing (from both sides of the aisle) necessary?
What good does it do?
These are hard times, and there is so much unhappiness in this world.
Please, everyone, let's do what we can to make our world a better place, not an angrier one.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: AmLitHist on July 27, 2020, 02:27:12 PM
Thank you, Hungry Ghost. The sentiment is applicable in many, many situations these days.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: downer on July 27, 2020, 03:57:46 PM
Going to those threads is what I hear it's like to sit with your bitter uncle at Thanksgiving. Makes me glad I have no such uncle.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on July 27, 2020, 04:20:13 PM
I'm avoiding about 2/3 threads on my queue, just by seeing who the poster is.

I open the thread, don't scroll down to read it, and it goes out of my queue.

Makes for a peaceful life...

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: little bongo on July 28, 2020, 11:05:36 AM
If someone is observed to be angry, erratic, and unhappy and then commits suicide, can we all just say "RIP"?
Is the sh!t throwing (from both sides of the aisle) necessary?
What good does it do?
These are hard times, and there is so much unhappiness in this world.
Please, everyone, let's do what we can to make our world a better place, not an angrier one.

It's truly lovely, but I'd just settle for making the fora a slightly better place.

However, I should note that there's a great deal of empathy and kindness in the mental health thread (as there was in the older work-life balance thread).
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: tuxthepenguin on July 29, 2020, 07:47:51 AM
That was so uninformed that I actually laughed out loud when I read it. I thought it was sarcasm to make a point. Then I realized you were serious. I'm happy the others ignored you so now I don't need to spend time on this thread.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on July 29, 2020, 10:50:35 AM
'I usually ignore your posts. Then I select quotations from them any reply to them.'
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: FishProf on July 30, 2020, 07:55:52 AM
Do you intend your questions to be so condescending?  Or is it unintentional?  Like a gift?  Like, say, an asshole savant?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: little bongo on July 30, 2020, 09:33:15 AM
(possibly unrelated)

So, another thread withers and dies. In this case, the post-mortem is pretty straightforward. Someone engaged with two people in particular who ought never to be engaged with, because these two people represent two distinct types of trolls.
1) the troll anticipated by Jean-Paul Sartre when he wrote about anti-Semitism: "Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”

Now, this thread was not about anti-Semitism, nor is there evidence that this troll is indeed an anti-Semite. But he does know his remarks are frivolous, he is amusing himself, and he does not have to use words responsibly. I almost envy this guy--it must be great to traipse through life amusing yourself without anything resembling a serious thought in your head. But here's the thing: any time you choose to ignore this troll, and you don't, troll wins. And the self-amusement continues. It's not a great crime, I suppose, but it does nothing to advance a discussion.

2) I used to think the second troll was part of the set of first trolls--indeed, there are times when he uses language irresponsibly to get a rise out of those who would engage. But there's more: this fellow has gone full-on "Monsters are Due on Maple Street" with his rants. There's some real fear and paranoia there. (He's partly right, of course, he's just misidentifying who the monsters are.) "They're after our syllabi!" "They're after our teaching methods!" He's looked into the window of the billiard parlor, seen the pool table, and is convinced we've Got Trouble.

I guess Hegemony had the right idea--a quick "tsk tsk" and move on. But in the end, what should "the fora" be?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: Parasaurolophus on July 30, 2020, 09:41:09 AM
Well said.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mamselle on July 30, 2020, 09:55:42 AM
Yes, we need to revive <<DNFTT>> signalling.

And Fiona.

M.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: mahagonny on July 30, 2020, 09:56:18 AM
(possibly unrelated)

So, another thread withers and dies. In this case, the post-mortem is pretty straightforward. Someone engaged with two people in particular who ought never to be engaged with, because these two people represent two distinct types of trolls.
1) the troll anticipated by Jean-Paul Sartre when he wrote about anti-Semitism: "Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”

Now, this thread was not about anti-Semitism, nor is there evidence that this troll is indeed an anti-Semite. But he does know his remarks are frivolous, he is amusing himself, and he does not have to use words responsibly. I almost envy this guy--it must be great to traipse through life amusing yourself without anything resembling a serious thought in your head. But here's the thing: any time you choose to ignore this troll, and you don't, troll wins. And the self-amusement continues. It's not a great crime, I suppose, but it does nothing to advance a discussion.

2) I used to think the second troll was part of the set of first trolls--indeed, there are times when he uses language irresponsibly to get a rise out of those who would engage. But there's more: this fellow has gone full-on "Monsters are Due on Maple Street" with his rants. There's some real fear and paranoia there. (He's partly right, of course, he's just misidentifying who the monsters are.) "They're after our syllabi!" "They're after our teaching methods!" He's looked into the window of the billiard parlor, seen the pool table, and is convinced we've Got Trouble.

I guess Hegemony had the right idea--a quick "tsk tsk" and move on. But in the end, what should "the fora" be?

I see. You are a mind reader. You know people's motives for posting comments. Do you also tell the future?
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: marshwiggle on July 30, 2020, 10:07:38 AM
(possibly unrelated)

So, another thread withers and dies. In this case, the post-mortem is pretty straightforward. Someone engaged with two people in particular who ought never to be engaged with, because these two people represent two distinct types of trolls.


This sounds kind of like a psychology experiment, where everyone is "sure" they know to whom these are referring, but if you did an anoymous survey, the list of people that it was "surely" referring to would have dozens of names on it.

I actually have two questions:
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: Parasaurolophus on July 30, 2020, 10:42:26 AM

  • Is it just me, or has the definition of "troll" changed in the last decade or so? Specifically, it seems to me that "trolling" used to refer more to how the person communicated on the forum, whereas now it refers more to the opinions the person expresses on the forum?

I think it's just you. It still looks to me like it pertains to function. We've just expanded the relevant range of functions.
Title: Re: Post your asides here
Post by: polly_mer on July 30, 2020, 11:19:59 AM

    • Is it just me, or has the definition of "troll" changed in the last decade or so? Specifically, it seems to me that "trolling" used to refer more to how the person communicated on the forum, whereas now it refers more to the opinions the person expresses on the forum?

    I think it's just you. It still looks to me like it pertains to function. We've just expanded the relevant range of functions.

    No, it's pretty clear that some world views just aren't welcome here, regardless of language employed or how legitimate the question would be in different venues.[/list]
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: polly_mer on July 30, 2020, 11:21:31 AM
    Do you intend your questions to be so condescending?  Or is it unintentional?  Like a gift?  Like, say, an asshole savant?

    It depends.  I certainly mean to be condescending when it's the same person on the same topic for the nth time in a short period of time with no evidence of learning anything.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: Parasaurolophus on July 30, 2020, 12:29:49 PM

    No, it's pretty clear that some world views just aren't welcome here, regardless of language employed or how legitimate the question would be in different venues.

    I don't think that's what people, even here, mean by 'trolling'. There are different ways of trolling, but what makes it trolling is its presentation and function in context, not its content. I can see how one might be confused if all or only the people presenting one type of content are accused of trolling, but it's clear to me that the designation still hinges on the presentation and function.

    I think most forumites are perfectly okay with good-faith discussion and disagreement. What's in question is whether everyone is actually coming to and participating in the discussion in good faith.

    (Okay, sorry. I'll not derail your asides further!)
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: apl68 on July 30, 2020, 01:02:06 PM
    You know the world has moved on when you talk in public on a real-life version of the communicator on "Star Trek," and yet everybody else now thinks you're behind the times.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: downer on July 30, 2020, 01:06:11 PM
    Trolling:
    --fish by trailing a baited line along behind a boat.
    --In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts flame wars or intentionally upsets people on the Internet by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community

    What I see are people who, when triggered by certain topics, go on and on and on about their views with little interest in listening or dialog. If there is dialog, it reminds of of Beckett dialogs. And of course, Godot never arrives.

    Seems to be many people would be happier if they took up more productive hobbies.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: mahagonny on July 30, 2020, 01:10:58 PM
    'Trolling' as I understand it is intentionally mischievous activity where you're posting not to have a conversation but only to disrupt or provoke. But I usually find the accuser presumptuous. He doesn't know the thought process of the poster. Could be that the poster does not have any sincere reactions to pick from that would blend with the prevailing attitudes in that particular forum. To me it's informative just to find out there's someone reading who looks at things differently.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: polly_mer on July 30, 2020, 03:44:20 PM
    I think most forumites are perfectly okay with good-faith discussion and disagreement. What's in question is whether everyone is actually coming to and participating in the discussion in good faith.

    That's not what I'm observing.  What I'm observing is people who insist that holding certain views means that one cannot possibly be discussing in good faith because only morons and trolls have certain views.

    I learned the term "sea lion" recently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

    What I'm seeing is accusations of sea lioning under the more general "trolling".  I don't see too much actual sea lioning, but I'm definitely seeing people who only want to have open discussion on things that don't really matter like food or television.  When it really matters, certain people here are quick to be dismissive and many others just leave the thread entirely ensuring there isn't any discussion.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: FishProf on July 30, 2020, 07:09:54 PM
    And of course, Godot never arrives.

    Hey, Hey! Spoiler alert!
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: downer on August 01, 2020, 10:38:06 AM
    //

    Get a room, you two.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: AmLitHist on August 07, 2020, 08:25:48 AM
    Should we start a Fight Club thread? 
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: dismalist on August 07, 2020, 10:31:54 AM
    Should we start a Fight Club thread?

    Nah, we got enough of those already!
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: hmaria1609 on August 07, 2020, 01:34:09 PM
    Should we start a Fight Club thread?

    Nah, we got enough of those already!
    I believe there was one on the old CHE Forum.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: downer on August 10, 2020, 01:00:15 PM
    9 Useful Strategies to Dealing with Difficult People at Work on the Fora
    Be calm. ...
    Understand the person's intentions. ...
    Get some perspective from others. ...
    Let the person know where you are coming from. ...
    Build a rapport. ...
    Treat the person with respect. ...
    Focus on what can be actioned upon. ...
    Ignore.
    Take it to a superior.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: polly_mer on August 10, 2020, 02:35:03 PM
    No.  People who are just wrong and flat out refuse to change do not deserve respect when doubling down on wrong.  The ignore feature is pretty nifty, especially when 'everyone' else is also ignoring so little to nothing is quoted.

    If you're going to report, then you have to report something that's actually over a line instead of just 'they said I was wrong and I object to being told I'm wrong.'
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: mahagonny on August 10, 2020, 03:56:22 PM
    9 Useful Strategies to Dealing with Difficult People at Work on the Fora
    Be calm. ...
    Understand the person's intentions. ...
    Get some perspective from others. ...
    Let the person know where you are coming from. ...
    Build a rapport. ...
    Treat the person with respect. ...
    Focus on what can be actioned upon. ...
    Ignore.
    Take it to a superior.

    What I don't think you're considering.... the tenure culture judges your worthiness and intelligence by your ability to cultivate allies, alliances. I do a fair (good enough) job of that in real life. But Mahagonny barely bothers with it. He doesn't have time. He just posts what he thinks.
    And BTW, if you haven't figured out that it's unlikely you'll end up with anything in return for tiptoeing around them, you will.
    Call me a troll then if that's your inclination.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: mamselle on August 10, 2020, 04:10:56 PM
    9 Useful Strategies to Dealing with Difficult People at Work on the Fora
    Be calm. ...
    Understand the person's intentions. ...
    Get some perspective from others. ...
    Let the person know where you are coming from. ...
    Build a rapport. ...
    Treat the person with respect. ...
    Focus on what can be actioned upon. ...
    Ignore.
    Take it to a superior.

    ^ Like.

    We need healing, not tearing apart at each others' wounds.

    M.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: namazu on August 16, 2020, 12:37:19 PM
    Surely I'm not the only one who misread that as "pizza"...
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: polly_mer on August 16, 2020, 12:45:03 PM
    9 Useful Strategies to Dealing with Difficult People at Work on the Fora
    Be calm. ...
    Understand the person's intentions. ...
    Get some perspective from others. ...
    Let the person know where you are coming from. ...
    Build a rapport. ...
    Treat the person with respect. ...
    Focus on what can be actioned upon. ...
    Ignore.
    Take it to a superior.

    ^ Like.

    We need healing, not tearing apart at each others' wounds.

    M.

    Choosing peace by allowing wrong to stand unchallenged is how we allow wrong to continue to flourish and then wonder why wrong seems to be winning.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: Liquidambar on August 16, 2020, 02:19:12 PM
    9 Useful Strategies to Dealing with Difficult People at Work on the Fora
    Be calm. ...
    Understand the person's intentions. ...
    Get some perspective from others. ...
    Let the person know where you are coming from. ...
    Build a rapport. ...
    Treat the person with respect. ...
    Focus on what can be actioned upon. ...
    Ignore.
    Take it to a superior.

    ^ Like.

    We need healing, not tearing apart at each others' wounds.

    M.

    Choosing peace by allowing wrong to stand unchallenged is how we allow wrong to continue to flourish and then wonder why wrong seems to be winning.

    Polly every night (https://xkcd.com/386/)?

    I just unfollowed a "friend" on Facebook because she keeps ignoring my critiques of the stuff she links to.  It's not worth my time and emotional energy.  By not reading her Facebook, I can be civil the next time we interact in person.  Not every hill is a hill to die on.  I have to prioritize.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: little bongo on August 27, 2020, 10:00:49 AM
    (unrelated)

    Yes, I totally fed a troll--or perhaps a sea lion. "Here you go, have some fish." Usually I just make myself a sandwich, but sometimes I get a bit ticked off.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: FishProf on September 02, 2020, 01:33:12 PM
    Dammit.  You said something I agree with and in a way that wasn't annoying or offensive.

    Grrr.  Commencing re-calibration of opinion.....
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: FishProf on September 03, 2020, 06:46:25 AM
    Nope, nevermind. 

    Apparently that was an outlier, a glitch, or a bot.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: downer on September 04, 2020, 08:59:18 AM
    OMFG!
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: mahagonny on September 04, 2020, 09:12:47 AM
    Sometimes people who are outraged are their own problem.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: little bongo on September 04, 2020, 09:52:05 AM
    Sometimes. And sometimes we can solve the problem with a well-aimed frying pan and a sharp "Snap out of it."
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: mahagonny on September 04, 2020, 10:42:55 AM
    You'll never hit me from there.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: downer on September 07, 2020, 07:38:45 AM
    You may want to move on, but I'm betting that there's a bunch of people who still want to give their opinions, because that's how they roll.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: polly_mer on September 07, 2020, 02:18:19 PM
    You may want to move on, but I'm betting that there's a bunch of people who still want to give their opinions, because that's how they roll.


    500 quatloos she won't just abandon the thread since she never has yet.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: apl68 on September 08, 2020, 07:47:21 AM
    You do realize that that past-due vendor invoice for ten cents that you just sent us cost more to mail than it was worth, don't you?  Anyway, sorry for the apparent underpayment.  We'll include it on this month's payment for services, and then we'll all be square.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: Parasaurolophus on September 09, 2020, 03:01:36 PM
    <unrelated>

    I wonder why.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: FishProf on September 10, 2020, 04:45:50 PM
    Hey look at that, I agree with you again!
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: little bongo on September 10, 2020, 08:24:41 PM
    [unrelated]

    Amazing. Every word in that sentence is wrong.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: AmLitHist on September 11, 2020, 07:17:02 AM
    Wow.  That must be some t.v.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: little bongo on September 11, 2020, 10:12:18 AM
    And then sometimes, someone just Wins the Internet. Congrats, jimbogumbo.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: Parasaurolophus on September 14, 2020, 07:33:57 PM
    <unrelated>

    Does impostor syndrome warrant a self-nomination?
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: mamselle on September 15, 2020, 05:34:53 AM
    Moi? Non.

    I just figured I'd shake things up a bit.

    M.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: little bongo on September 15, 2020, 06:17:04 AM
    <unrelated>

    So at my school, we get trained in "difficult dialogues"--trying to see the other person's point of view, appreciating that everyone has followed their own paths to figure out what is true, and assuming good intentions from the start. And I'm generally for it.

    However, perhaps because of my rapidly advancing years, I lose patience with Bigot Problems. And the reason I lose patience is because Bigot Problems are just so easy to solve.

    Stop being a bigot.

    See? Problem solved.

    Also, I'd suggest the following: dry off behind the ears, gain some mileage, then straighten up and fly right. Again, not so hard.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: mahagonny on September 15, 2020, 07:51:45 AM
    <unrelated>

    So at my school, we get trained in "difficult dialogues"--trying to see the other person's point of view, appreciating that everyone has followed their own paths to figure out what is true, and assuming good intentions from the start. And I'm generally for it.

    However, perhaps because of my rapidly advancing years, I lose patience with Bigot Problems. And the reason I lose patience is because Bigot Problems are just so easy to solve.

    Stop being a bigot.

    See? Problem solved.

    Also, I'd suggest the following: dry off behind the ears, gain some mileage, then straighten up and fly right. Again, not so hard.

    Interesting that you characterize the difficult discussion as a problem. And then the discussion, now being a problem, prompts you to offer a solution, which you have ready. Whereas, if the parties just accept that they see things differently, then what was the problem in the first place?
    You mention bigotry but not having heard the conversation it's impossible for me to be seeing the bigotry to which you refer. All I have to work with is someone thinks someone else is a bigot, which is as common as pigeons in Central Park.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: little bongo on September 15, 2020, 10:40:44 AM
    Hmm. Hard to know where to begin with this--lack of coherence impedes meaning, and I'm not sure how we landed in Central Park. Also, I was responding to some transphobia on the DIRE question thread. Nevertheless...

    1) I believe the purpose of this thread in particular is just what it says--an "aside." If my aside in this case solves a problem or two, I'm happy to oblige.
    2) You and I have actually said the exact same thing (if I'm understanding you correctly, which I might not be, because of the coherence thing)--if we do acknowledge that people see things differently (that is, we stop being bigots), then there is indeed no more problem. So maybe I have solved a problem--yay, me.

    As long as nobody asked, here's something else I can solve--or rather, I could solve it if I could arrange for everybody on earth to go back in time and have my 3rd grade teacher. You see, when I was in 3rd grade, I was called out by the teacher for doing something or other. And I protested that so-and-so was doing it, too, and something worse besides.

    I was shot down with appropriate speed and alacrity--"We're not talking about so-and-so, are we? We're talking about YOU, Mr. Bongo."

    Well, it's Dr. Bongo, now, and we've all passed a lot of water since then. But that lesson stuck with me and apparently very few other people that I come across in the news. When you've done something wrong, you are accountable. For that particular subject, we're not talking about anybody else.  This insight has many, many applications that I won't go into here, but one thing to consider--before you write, or say, "What about this...." just think: were we talking about "this"? I'll bet we weren't.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: mamselle on September 15, 2020, 12:45:28 PM
    Only disconnect.

    M.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: aside on September 19, 2020, 06:05:36 PM
    [unrelated]

    Now that's not blatantly racist, is it?
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: ergative on September 25, 2020, 03:53:33 AM
    Thank you, mouseman.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: FishProf on September 25, 2020, 04:58:22 AM
    That's not an argument.  That is just blatant hostility.  You've been doing that a lot lately.  Are you OK?
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: downer on September 25, 2020, 06:11:35 AM
    The poster spends a lot more time writing about the problem here than it would take just to deal with the problem.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: Cheerful on September 25, 2020, 07:12:04 AM
    The poster spends a lot more time writing about the problem here than it would take just to deal with the problem.

    Perhaps the fora community has done about all it can to help this person.  Maybe we are enabling/making things worse by continuing to respond and having a new round of the same conversation every few weeks.

    It's sad to see someone so miserable/struggling and not finding a way forward after getting so much empathetic advice.

    Therapy seems like the next best step for this person.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: downer on September 25, 2020, 07:21:00 AM
    The poster spends a lot more time writing about the problem here than it would take just to deal with the problem.

    Perhaps the fora community has done about all it can to help this person.  Maybe we are enabling/making things worse by continuing to respond and having a new round of the same conversation every few weeks.

    It's sad to see someone so miserable/struggling and not finding a way forward after getting so much empathetic advice.

    Therapy seems like the next best step for this person.

    I agree with you but I wasn't referring to that poster.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: ciao_yall on September 25, 2020, 08:21:34 AM
    The poster spends a lot more time writing about the problem here than it would take just to deal with the problem.

    Perhaps the fora community has done about all it can to help this person.  Maybe we are enabling/making things worse by continuing to respond and having a new round of the same conversation every few weeks.

    It's sad to see someone so miserable/struggling and not finding a way forward after getting so much empathetic advice.

    Therapy seems like the next best step for this person.

    I agree with you but I wasn't referring to that poster.

    There are several who resemble that remark.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: FishProf on September 25, 2020, 08:24:02 AM
    Not liking the answer and not knowing the answer are not the same thing. 

    Also, how much you like the advice has no bearing on its soundness.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: FishProf on September 27, 2020, 12:26:31 PM
    What an unfortunate juxtaposition of posts.  Disturbing image.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: RatGuy on September 28, 2020, 07:56:00 AM
    "Pish posh" is a thing I'm trying out.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: little bongo on September 28, 2020, 09:16:57 AM
    <unrelated>

    H. Sebastian Chr-st on a f-cking bicycle, were we even discussing those two???? What is the f-cking title of the f-cking forum?????

    Hm, maybe this should have been a vent.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: aside on September 28, 2020, 10:37:03 AM
    [unrelated]

    A stale doughnut is a concept with which I am not familiar.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: mamselle on September 28, 2020, 01:16:57 PM
    "Pish posh" is a thing I'm trying out.

    My favorite use is in the title of a children's book, "Pish, Posh Said Hieronymus Bosch"

       https://www.amazon.com/Nancy-Willard-Pish-Hieronymus-Bosch/dp/B000WQP804#reader_B000WQP804

    I've read it to classes and sent it as gifts to friends' children...it's gorgeous, hilarious, and one of my treasures.

    M.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: FishProf on September 29, 2020, 09:45:20 AM
    Every time I read that poster, I hear THIS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y&ab_channel=CaptJax458) in my head.

    Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: aside on October 01, 2020, 07:26:26 PM
    [unrelated]

    There's nothing I won't say that needs to be said.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: permanent imposter on October 02, 2020, 10:16:55 PM
    Every time I read that poster, I hear THIS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y&ab_channel=CaptJax458) in my head.

    Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

    I can't believe that video has 60 million views and I've never seen it before. Also: What does it mean??
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: FishProf on October 03, 2020, 07:52:37 AM
    Every time I read that poster, I hear THIS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y&ab_channel=CaptJax458) in my head.

    Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

    I can't believe that video has 60 million views and I've never seen it before. Also: What does it mean??

    Non-sequitur.  The answer has nothing to do with the question and the embarrassment of the reporter is palpable.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: FishProf on October 06, 2020, 07:10:53 AM
    [Unrelated]

    Was there a question in there?  No?

    OK, moving on without replying...
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: downer on October 06, 2020, 10:08:12 AM
    Could I get some credit for not posting a snarky comment?
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: FishProf on October 06, 2020, 10:13:37 AM
    Could I get some credit for not posting a snarky comment?

    Granted.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: downer on October 06, 2020, 10:24:42 AM
    Could I get some credit for not posting a snarky comment?

    Granted.

    Thanks. Now I guess I really can't post one.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: polly_mer on October 06, 2020, 10:51:59 AM
    To summarize:

    1) You don't have a good academic job and you're not competitive for the job you want.

    2) You haven't been keeping up with basic technical skills that are now common in good middle schools.

    3) You don't really want a non-academic job because you've drunk far too much Kool-Aid.

    Basically, you're screwed because you're unwilling to live in reality.

    Let us know when you decide you'd like to make a go of being a responsible adult who accepts reality.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: FishProf on October 20, 2020, 10:55:06 AM
    O goody. ANOTHER reason to ignore that poster.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: AmLitHist on October 20, 2020, 12:15:32 PM
    O goody. ANOTHER reason to ignore that poster.
    +1
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: apl68 on October 20, 2020, 12:54:40 PM
    I just ate an apple.  I expect the doctor to get the message and stay away for the rest of the day.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: FishProf on October 21, 2020, 05:45:28 AM
    I just ate an apple.  I expect the doctor to get the message and stay away for the rest of the day.

    Was the apple in-network?
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: apl68 on October 21, 2020, 06:15:49 AM
    I just ate an apple.  I expect the doctor to get the message and stay away for the rest of the day.

    Was the apple in-network?

    It didn't cost me anything, so evidently it was.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: mamselle on October 21, 2020, 06:17:56 AM
    Not even a copay?

    Sweet deal.

    M.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: apl68 on October 21, 2020, 06:41:00 AM
    Certain members of the staff are now receiving weekly commodities distributions.  They are even getting them at work, instead of having to go to fetch them.  They are sharing the fruits, vegetables, etc. that they receive with friends and family.  Sometimes there are more apples and onions than they need, so they leave these in the staff break room.  That's where I get my occasional free apples.  I've also been taking some of the onions home.  I don't know what the situation is like elsewhere, but around here COVID-19 related measures to get agricultural surpluses to those who need it are improving the availability of fresh fruits and vegetables for a lot of people.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: mamselle on October 21, 2020, 07:11:34 AM
    That is so thoughtful.

    Glad you can make use of them!

    M.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: AmLitHist on October 21, 2020, 07:24:43 AM
    When someone shows you who they are (repeatedly, over a period of months/years, with no variations ever) believe them.

    DNFTT.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: little bongo on October 21, 2020, 07:57:19 AM
    (may or may not be related)

    Well, I don't always agree, to put it mildly, but credit where credit is due:

    Solid, solid burn, because it is grounded in truth.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: aside on October 21, 2020, 07:19:43 PM
    [related?]

    So, you see adjuncts as oppressed by the tenure-track and cry "injustice," but you can't see see systemic racism and white fragility as real things?
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: little bongo on October 22, 2020, 06:34:33 AM
    Right, then. Irrelevant, incompetent, and immaterial, as lawyers like to say--the kind of response I should have expected. And me wasting perfectly good fish.

    But I think I've learned my lesson at last. And to continue the fish metaphor, I definitely have bigger ones to fry.

    Ignoring and letting go. Feels good.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: downer on October 22, 2020, 06:40:05 AM
    I find the "ignore" function is a boon to mental health.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: Langue_doc on October 22, 2020, 07:00:48 AM
    Agreed.
    DNFTT
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: little bongo on October 22, 2020, 07:08:42 AM
    Thank you, downer and Langue_doc. I will investigate the "ignore" function, and commit to the DNFTT philosophy. I could use all the boons to mental health I can get.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: mahagonny on October 22, 2020, 07:44:14 AM
    [related?]

    So, you see adjuncts as oppressed by the tenure-track and cry "injustice," but you can't see see systemic racism and white fragility as real things?


    White fragility - when you talk about race, white people get uncomfortable, so we clam up. Silence is violence. Stop being violent. Say something. Don't say what you're thinking, read the script and confess. Say what you're thinking, you bigot. Stop being a jerk.

    Systemic racism - black people have to attend inferior schools? Let's do something about it, if we have the intelligence to. Let's not incarcerate poor people indefinitely over relatively minor offenses. Give them freedom and another chance. Too many illegal aliens might be bringing down wages at the bottom. Things to think about.

    Anti racism is a religion that makes certain white people (mostly affluent)  feel cleansed. It has little connection to a serious results-oriented effort to see more people prosper, live in safe communities and have better lives.

    Tenure - if the teaching is done by people who can't make a living at it, something is wrong. Unless this work is not important. If this work is not important then the students are not important. That's where we are.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: Langue_doc on October 22, 2020, 08:01:11 AM
    Thank you, downer and Langue_doc. I will investigate the "ignore" function, and commit to the DNFTT philosophy. I could use all the boons to mental health I can get.

    Take good care of yourself, little bongo.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: downer on October 22, 2020, 08:10:58 AM
    Thank you, downer and Langue_doc. I will investigate the "ignore" function, and commit to the DNFTT philosophy. I could use all the boons to mental health I can get.

    Take good care of yourself, little bongo.

    Yes, it helps to be able to focus on worthwhile interlocuters.
    Title: Re: Post your asides here
    Post by: apl68 on October 23, 2020, 09:35:26 AM
    I just learned that my alma mater's most famous alum is a viral video "celebrity" from a couple of years back.  Wonder whether she'll ever get a plaque on campus?