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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: polly_mer on July 15, 2020, 07:20:00 AM

Title: K-12 fall plans
Post by: polly_mer on July 15, 2020, 07:20:00 AM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/los-angeles-public-schools-wont-open-in-fall-as-covid-19-crisis-continues-11594667074

Our local (much smaller) district took a survey on early June that indicated 90% of parents wanted hybrid over fully online.  The registration of students for hybrid or fully online came back at near 90% for hybrid.

The announcement this week is fall for K-12 will begin fully online for everyone because the district cannot possibly be ready for a safe enough in-person reopening in the time remaining before the start of fall term.

We're a rich district with very low current infection rate (under 20 total cases in the county).  However, we can't get enough PPE, we draw faculty/students/staff from places up to an hour away that have higher rates of infection, and our local cases doubled recently from a handful in March with zero new cases for months.

The current plan is to evaluate the situation as it unfolds and give at least a month's notice before switching to hybrid at some future quarter.  The priority is enough time to plan since the one-day notice in March was an emergency that we don't need to repeat.  I expect a reassuring notice today from the largest employer in town (>70% of adults) that we will remain in work from home mode because it's the same safety data being examined and paid childcare will remain unavailable.  The director of operations was part of the school board meeting to help ensure coordination in this company town.

How's it looking where you are since some school districts start fall in less than a month?
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: wellfleet on July 15, 2020, 11:05:47 AM
Our school district was also headed toward a hybrid reopening in three weeks' time, but the school board voted last night to begin the year in full-distance mode instead. Numbers are rising here, we've had new local closure orders this week, and testing availability here is far below demand. Full-distance should look different than it did in the spring (it was terrible in the spring), with more synchronous class and stricter accountability, and this family of a high school junior is keeping all of our fingers crossed. There may be a delayed start date, too, but that's still being negotiated.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: lightning on July 15, 2020, 12:36:06 PM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/los-angeles-public-schools-wont-open-in-fall-as-covid-19-crisis-continues-11594667074

Our local (much smaller) district took a survey on early June that indicated 90% of parents wanted hybrid over fully online.  The registration of students for hybrid or fully online came back at near 90% for hybrid.

The announcement this week is fall for K-12 will begin fully online for everyone because the district cannot possibly be ready for a safe enough in-person reopening in the time remaining before the start of fall term.

We're a rich district with very low current infection rate (under 20 total cases in the county).  However, we can't get enough PPE, we draw faculty/students/staff from places up to an hour away that have higher rates of infection, and our local cases doubled recently from a handful in March with zero new cases for months.

The current plan is to evaluate the situation as it unfolds and give at least a month's notice before switching to hybrid at some future quarter.  The priority is enough time to plan since the one-day notice in March was an emergency that we don't need to repeat.  I expect a reassuring notice today from the largest employer in town (>70% of adults) that we will remain in work from home mode because it's the same safety data being examined and paid childcare will remain unavailable.  The director of operations was part of the school board meeting to help ensure coordination in this company town.

How's it looking where you are since some school districts start fall in less than a month?

I'm glad to hear that the school district where you live actually cares about what the parents thought about the situation. There isn't a school district near me that actually asked the parents about their thoughts, in a such a formal and organized fashion as a survey.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: jimbogumbo on July 15, 2020, 02:01:53 PM
Two of our larger (and to be fair, more affluent) who already have robust E-learning programs are allowing parents to choose f2f or online. They have to make a one semester commitment to their choice.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: ab_grp on July 15, 2020, 02:09:11 PM
Our school district was also headed toward a hybrid reopening in three weeks' time, but the school board voted last night to begin the year in full-distance mode instead. Numbers are rising here, we've had new local closure orders this week, and testing availability here is far below demand. Full-distance should look different than it did in the spring (it was terrible in the spring), with more synchronous class and stricter accountability, and this family of a high school junior is keeping all of our fingers crossed. There may be a delayed start date, too, but that's still being negotiated.

Almost the exact situation here with respect to timing of school reopening and the decisions (and I am also a parent of a high school junior!).  A week or two ago, we got a hybrid schedule under which high school students would go in either M/T or Th/Fr, and the other 3 days would be remote.  Now it will be fully online starting in August.  Daughter's school program also includes college classes, and I think the university will be open for f2f (although that may change given the increasing numbers here), so I am not sure what that will mean for her schedule.  I definitely hope they have things more together in the fall than they did in the spring, although I completely understand why things were not so smooth at that time.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: polly_mer on July 15, 2020, 03:52:52 PM
Part of the case where we are for deciding on fully online now is for faculty to really get proficient at one modality through the trainings that are being held to help bring everyone up to speed.

One parental concern from the survey was quality of education in the spring.  The district has invested a lot in getting better quality for the fall.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Vkw10 on July 15, 2020, 05:00:14 PM
Last week, governor announced that schools would open in August and would be 100% f2f after 3 weeks or lose all state funding. This week, governor backed off on the 3 week limit and encouraged districts to delay opening until after Labor Day to allow preparation for having as much f2f time as possible. Plans are due to state this month.

One of my colleagues is married to an elementary school principal in neighboring district. They are discussing having grades K-4 attend five days a week, with older students attending one day a week. They’d like to divide the younger students up, with half at elementary and half at middle school buildings, then have all the older students using high school buildings. Staffing is major issue, since they’d need to many more teachers for K-4. One possibility is to assign all the grades 5-8 teachers to work with younger students, then have the HS teachers handle all the grades 5-12 students. Colleague’s spouse said everyone would be delighted with better suggestions, especially if they maximize time younger children have to learn reading and arithmetic.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: kaysixteen on July 15, 2020, 11:42:14 PM
Oh, that's great, have your AP calc teacher teaching 5th grade mathematics.  One-size-fits-all.  Hmmm...

Around here, we are one of the few states where the curve has indeed been flattened and the case counts dropping.   Still, to the extent that I pay attention to the news wrt school plans for the fall (not having kids or being an employed k12 ps teacher now), methinks the issue is being avoided, and that most folks are assuming that school will reopen, without necessarily there being much actual official evidence that this is true.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: apl68 on July 16, 2020, 09:04:42 AM
Our district announced this week that they will start classes no later than August 26.  They plan to be on-site five days a week, but with contingency plans to move online if another shutdown becomes necessary.  Parents will have the option to go with distance learning from the start, using school-issued Chrome books.  They're spending a king's ransom on new technology to facilitate distance learning.  Beats me where a little district like ours got the money from.

They're stocking up on cleaning supplies, rearranging classrooms to allow as much distancing as possible, providing masks for all staff and students and requiring their use, and seeing how they can adjust meal schedules to have social distancing in the cafeterias.  Parents will not be able to visit students on-campus unless truly necessary.  Open houses will be all virtual.

Students will be screened each day by parents for temperatures and coughs.  If they're found to have these at school, they'll be sent home.

The online option is only going to be an option for families with adequate service at home--which an awful lot of people (Not just poor ones, either) don't have at home.  I'm in the process of putting together a proposal to our library Board of Trustees to supply mobile hot spots to patrons.  That could help, but at best we'll only have funding to make a drop in the bucket compared to the need.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: theblackbox on July 16, 2020, 10:05:33 AM
Students will be screened each day by parents for temperatures and coughs.  If they're found to have these at school, they'll be sent home.
This will result in virtually no different screening than all previous years, where parents determine whether their kid's illness is severe enough that they have to call into work and take the day off. Spoiler alert: Unless they're actively vomiting or unable to walk around, these kids with fevers and coughs and running noses get sent to school. Not because their parents are monsters, but because the parents are faced with losing their job/hourly wages and having no money to pay for food/shelter/healthcare for their kid, or sending their sick kid to school. Our system has been broken for a long time.

I do think some families will be more vigilant, of course, and keep kids home with mild symptoms. But many simply can't afford to.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: polly_mer on July 16, 2020, 10:50:46 AM
Screening for symptoms also doesn't help enough when people are asymptomatic or presymptomatic while still being contagious.

The concern in some discourse communities is that kids don't show symptoms, but can still spread.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: hmaria1609 on July 16, 2020, 01:36:42 PM
Maryland, DC, and Virginia are announcing their plans:
https://wtop.com/education/2020/07/fall-school-plans-for-dc-maryland-virginia-systems-during-coronavirus/ (https://wtop.com/education/2020/07/fall-school-plans-for-dc-maryland-virginia-systems-during-coronavirus/)

Mayor Bowser's updated DC schools announcement:
https://wtop.com/dc/2020/07/bowser-dc-public-schools-decision-delayed/ (https://wtop.com/dc/2020/07/bowser-dc-public-schools-decision-delayed/)
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: polly_mer on July 20, 2020, 05:46:47 AM
Slate claims that there's no effort to hear teachers' voices.  A Slate writer interviews Slate's Ask a Teacher panel, who say the same things that have been showing up all over the media for the past couple weeks. (https://slate.com/human-interest/2020/07/reopening-schools-teachers-coronavirus-risks.html?via=taps_top)
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: jimbogumbo on July 20, 2020, 05:51:18 AM
Don't have the link but I saw a CDC report summarized yesterday that said students 10 years old and up spread COVID in the same way adults do.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: polly_mer on July 20, 2020, 06:05:50 AM
Don't have the link but I saw a CDC report summarized yesterday that said students 10 years old and up spread COVID in the same way adults do.

The Chicago Tribune has a summary of a recent, large-scale study that has the same headline. (https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-nyt-older-children-covid-spread-study-20200718-5q5eo4ylibcwppd2haxwvdp6re-story.html)
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Caracal on July 20, 2020, 07:10:52 AM
Don't have the link but I saw a CDC report summarized yesterday that said students 10 years old and up spread COVID in the same way adults do.

The Chicago Tribune has a summary of a recent, large-scale study that has the same headline. (https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-nyt-older-children-covid-spread-study-20200718-5q5eo4ylibcwppd2haxwvdp6re-story.html)

The reporting on that study, which seems quite good, has been lacking in much context. It has been pretty obvious that there are big differences between young children and teenagers in terms of transmission, which makes sense. The study also showed that children under ten transmit the virus at half the rate as adults, which is pretty striking and in line with other studies. The other part of this is that transmission is only part of the story. Other studies have shown that children who are in contact with an infected person, are less likely to be infected in the first place. Not clear what the age range on this part is.

The other part of this that was pointed out by Jeniffer Nuzzo, an epidemiologist at Johns Hopkins in the NYT article on the same study was that the study looked at transmission by symptomatic children only. There's a decent amount of evidence that children who get the virus are much more likely to be asymptomatic than adults, so that's an important part of the overall picture.

Kids can obviously get the virus and they can obviously pass it on, but the details really matter in terms of how much school reopening will contribute to community spread. The study also adds to evidence that the risks are lower for younger children, which is good news, since in person learning is probably most important for them and the problems of childcare are most acute. None of this is easy or uncomplicated, however, especially when you have uncontrolled spread all over the country...
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: mythbuster on July 20, 2020, 09:41:06 AM
I live in Cluster F&*# ground zero. It's really nice to hear abut places where people are reasonable and making logical decisions. Please keep telling us about those.

    Our schools are supposedly going back on August 10. Parents have been given some level of "option" for all online if they want it but the default is for at least some face to face. The plan last I heard it, was for K-6, 5 days a week, and 7-12 twice a week. My grad student is also a school teacher and one of the big questions right now is who will buy disinfectants etc for the classroom.  Yes this is one of those districts where the parents are expected to buy the soap and TP for the bathrooms for the year.
   I don't have kids so I'm not directly affected. But around here it's all just so political that ugly things are being said. People really do care, as I heard that last week the school board meeting for Palm Beach Fl. had 70,000 people log in to watch!
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: fishbrains on July 20, 2020, 10:25:33 AM
I live in Cluster F&*# ground zero. It's really nice to hear abut places where people are reasonable and making logical decisions. Please keep telling us about those.

    Our schools are supposedly going back on August 10. Parents have been given some level of "option" for all online if they want it but the default is for at least some face to face. The plan last I heard it, was for K-6, 5 days a week, and 7-12 twice a week. My grad student is also a school teacher and one of the big questions right now is who will buy disinfectants etc for the classroom.  Yes this is one of those districts where the parents are expected to buy the soap and TP for the bathrooms for the year.
   I don't have kids so I'm not directly affected. But around here it's all just so political that ugly things are being said. People really do care, as I heard that last week the school board meeting for Palm Beach Fl. had 70,000 people log in to watch!

This pretty much describes my area. Silver lining: People no longer ask us why we homeschool our kids.
 
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: apl68 on July 20, 2020, 12:46:54 PM
My grad student is also a school teacher and one of the big questions right now is who will buy disinfectants etc for the classroom.  Yes this is one of those districts where the parents are expected to buy the soap and TP for the bathrooms for the year.

There are school districts where basic sanitary supplies for school restrooms aren't included in the budget?
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: polly_mer on July 20, 2020, 04:13:55 PM
My grad student is also a school teacher and one of the big questions right now is who will buy disinfectants etc for the classroom.  Yes this is one of those districts where the parents are expected to buy the soap and TP for the bathrooms for the year.

There are school districts where basic sanitary supplies for school restrooms aren't included in the budget?

Yes, and those districts aren't always the poorest of the poor.

 Many of the media articles recently have mentioned that restrooms didn't have soap, paper towels, or even necessarily enough fixtures with adequate running water in normal conditions.  Skepticism has been voiced about the plans to have increased sanitizing daily regimes without a big influx of money for supplies and additional people.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: kaysixteen on July 20, 2020, 07:13:22 PM
Warren Buffett has noted that he thinks, half seriously, that  we should outlaw private k12 education in this country, in order to force American elites to utilize the public schools, so as to make such elites ensure that these schools are adequately funded (the flaw in this argument concerns the 'Great Sort' in contemporary America, coupled with the largely localized tax funding scheme used to pay for public schools, ensures that it is much more likely that those elites would only adequately fund *their* public schools).  But even the ps system in a place like Boston is notorious for unsanitary restroom conditions, as a recent Boston Globe expose made clear.  Like it or not, even the best-performing states wrt pandemic fighting, have been trying  to do this fighting on the cheap, and not one dime in new taxes has been imposed on anyone, even rich and getting richer by the day corporations like Wallyworld and Amazon (who have benefited greatly from enforced pandemic closures of much of their competition), and one of the aspects of this dereliction of duty is that many public schools will indeed be woefully unprepared for appropriate pandemic alterations in areas of sanitation and many others, this fall.

WRT Slate's teacher poll, many headlines in recent weeks have indeed purported to say what k12 teachers think about reopening, etc.  What has not happened, however, is much of any attempts made by state policy makers, to formally and appreciably solicit teacher opinions.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Economizer on July 22, 2020, 08:28:23 AM
And, if private schools were forced to take a "sojourn[?]" and students were enrolled in public schools, there could be a temporary 15-20% reduction in "professional's" fees!  Cool or what! Oh, but what about transportation..wouldn't work.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: polly_mer on August 04, 2020, 04:28:11 PM
A nurse in The Atlantic wrote that teachers should also accept being like soldiers on the front line in the pandemic: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/im-nurse-teachers-should-do-their-jobs-like-i-did/614902/

A writer sighed heavily and wrote a rebuttal: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/08/dont-blame-teachers-for-schools-closed-by-covid-19.html
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Anselm on August 04, 2020, 07:35:41 PM
Chicago teachers' union is going to vote on a strike soon to protest having face to face classrooms. 

https://chicago.suntimes.com/education/2020/8/4/21354570/chicago-teachers-union-strike-vote-cps-public-schools-pandemic-remote-learning-hybrid
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: kaysixteen on August 04, 2020, 10:06:33 PM
I do not necessarily have no sympathy for the general thesis of the Atlantic nurse.   Up to a point.   I would very much like one of these teacher jobs myself now, but of course do not have one.   That said, I have had opportunities in recent weeks to apply for a few positions teaching in places that, ahem, I am unwilling to go during this pandemic.   However, she makes several errors, which, in no particular order of importance, include:

1) ICU nurses, like it or not, explicitly have signed up for a job that at any time can expose them to a frighteningly sick person, and some of these sick people are not heart attack or stroke victims, but rather folks with various dangerous and communicable acute diseases.  This has always been true, long before covid.  As a result, nurses are given access to real PPE, though the early days of our covid era did not always distinguish themselves in this regard.  They are also  trained to use this stuff, and are staffed in hospitals explicitly equipped and trained in disinfecting and germ mitigation procedures.   And one of those procedures, as one of the commenters to the nymag response noted, included not requiring an ICU nurse to be alone in a room with 40 sick 8yos.
2) teachers are not military or law enforcement volunteers, and are not draftees manning the ramparts against the Vikings.  They did not sign up for consistent exposure to deadly pandemics, and indeed, before 30-40 years ago (largely as a result of certain socio-cultural changes in our society), sick children were regularly sent home from school.   But even then, and certainly now, being a teacher is one of the germiest jobs around-- one doc I had a number of years ago, who doubled as the on-call physician for the boarding school whose faculty I had just joined, told me that new teachers were considered in the same class with new health care professionals, in terms of requiring a number of years (he actually said seven) to acclimate themselves to the enormous consistent exposure to germs the teachers and health care workers both regularly get (don't even get me started on the atmosphere at a boarding school, for instance).  He was right-- I got bad colds a couple of times that year, and even years later, working at a different school, and after much teacher experience, you still get whallopped regularly, all the more so because today's parents largely do not care about sending sick Johnnie and Suzie to school.  And the nymag responder is exactly right-- schools in this country are largely just not prepared to fight pandemic germs.  Ventilation and sanitation is often very poor-- heck, many schools outside of the sunbelt do not even have a/c, as though this were 1975.  PPE for teachers is going to just not be there in droves, and in poorer places like Chicago, well...  And, of course, like it or not, no one seriously, really, thinks that schoolchildren will 1) regularly wear masks, and wear them correctly, 2) socially distance 3) not do things that will cause exposure risks 3) honestly answer questions about virus exposure, etc., nor is it really likely that most school admins will be willing, or mostly even able, to do much about it  (try punishing those 8yos for various of this sort of non-compliant behavior).

3) The 'essential worker' analogy is however something the teachers' unions need to grapple with.  Whether additional online school time inconveniences some upper-middle class professional who is able to work from home is not particularly important, but it is inconvenient for many of those lower-middle and working class 'essential workers', who, like it or not, have been actively risking their health for almost 6 months now, for almost no additional compensation in most cases, which is, well...
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: polly_mer on August 05, 2020, 07:05:38 AM

3) The 'essential worker' analogy is however something the teachers' unions need to grapple with.  Whether additional online school time inconveniences some upper-middle class professional who is able to work from home is not particularly important, but it is inconvenient for many of those lower-middle and working class 'essential workers', who, like it or not, have been actively risking their health for almost 6 months now, for almost no additional compensation in most cases, which is, well...

From a societal utilitarian argument, sending all teachers face to face is a dumb risk of harder-to-replace workers.  I am categorized as an essential worker as are most of my colleagues and the scheduling to reduce our risk to ALARA (as low as reasonably achievable) particularly for our very experienced people who are hard, if not impossible, to replace includes assigning people to the overnight shift to have only a couple people in the building at a time.

Better for the needs of the front-line essential workers would be to establish small bubbles/pods of kids of workers at the same employer who need to be supervised and a couple adults who can either supervise online education log ins or play sessions with each bubble reasonably grouped by age.  Accepting the need to do different for this year and then acting on that need would work better to reduce spread than hewing as close to as normal as possible.

Having teachers do the teaching online and leaving direct in-person supervision to other competent adults who need the childcare job would be a way to reduce risk, keep kids adequately supervised, and let adults who must work for our collective good do their jobs.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: kaysixteen on August 05, 2020, 10:27:03 AM
Another thing I forgot to mention is that, even were we to play devil's advocate and say, falsely, that prepubescent kids don't get serious covid cases, well, they sure enough can spread it to those who can.  Opening schools full-bore this semester more or less guarantees superspreader events from coast to coast.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: spork on August 05, 2020, 10:59:10 AM
The Chicago public school system has given up on its idea of pods attending school twice weekly and will go for fully online instruction instead.

I haven't paid close attention to the epidemiology of Covid-19 in children because I don't have any. I don't have a direct stake in whether K-12 systems re-open for in-person instruction. But it seems to me that much of the "teachers should just suck it up and teach because that's their job" mentality is simply another manifestation of the lack of economic value placed on what has traditionally been women's work -- child-rearing, elder care, nursing, teaching, food service work, house cleaning, etc. I refer to it as the God tax: the attitude of "your job is so beneficial to society that you should be willing to do it for next to nothing, regardless of risk and opportunity cost."



Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: mamselle on August 05, 2020, 11:47:17 AM
Another thing I forgot to mention is that, even were we to play devil's advocate and say, falsely, that prepubescent kids don't get serious covid cases, well, they sure enough can spread it to those who can.  Opening schools full-bore this semester more or less guarantees superspreader events from coast to coast.

I have always said that little kids are just 2-legged germ vectors....

M.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Stockmann on August 05, 2020, 12:49:04 PM
@spork: Yep, although to me it looks more like what some link shared on a thread here (can't remember which thread, though) said - the more socially valuable a job is, the more likely it is to have low pay and, conversely, the highly paid jobs tend to be "BS jobs" - jobs that are neither that necessary to society as a whole nor fulfilling for the worker, and this is not true only in the US. Surgeons are a rare counterexample. Schoolteachers in the US very much fit the pattern though - it can't be a cushy job when it has such high turnover, and now some folks are asking schoolteachers, who unlike nurses and doctors didn't sign up to deal up close with folks infected with deadly pathogens, and who unlike soldiers didn't sign up to put their lives on the line, to do so.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Caracal on August 05, 2020, 01:10:40 PM
Another thing I forgot to mention is that, even were we to play devil's advocate and say, falsely, that prepubescent kids don't get serious covid cases, well, they sure enough can spread it to those who can.  Opening schools full-bore this semester more or less guarantees superspreader events from coast to coast.

Well, they can get serious cases, but it is legitimately quite rare. And in terms of the role of kids in transmission, there are still lots of unanswered questions. One case study of a camp hardly settles the question when other studies have shown different things. Of course that doesn't mean opening schools is a good idea. As Poly said upthread, in some reasonable world you would have programs set up for supervised learning. These could employ people at low risk for serious illness and have small groups of kids. Of course that would take money and there seems to be no interest in providing it so the burden of this is going to fall on parents.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: mamselle on August 05, 2020, 04:41:34 PM
NPR is reporting this:

   https://www.wbur.org/radioboston/2020/08/05/august-05-2020-rb

I don't think that's been discussed up to now.

M.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: polly_mer on August 05, 2020, 05:51:03 PM
Another thing I forgot to mention is that, even were we to play devil's advocate and say, falsely, that prepubescent kids don't get serious covid cases, well, they sure enough can spread it to those who can.  Opening schools full-bore this semester more or less guarantees superspreader events from coast to coast.

Well, they can get serious cases, but it is legitimately quite rare.

Not quite.  This is an area where the evolving science discussion gets lost in translation to the media summaries.  Little kids weren't exposed early on because 'everywhere' clamped down quickly and only symptomatic people were being tested.

Kids weren't being studied.  Now that kids are being studied, they can get it and they can spread it.  There is some ongoing discussion about maybe kids don't spread at the same rate based on some preliminary studies, but even that may be more a function that kids weren't exposed at the same rates as older people, not any physiological differences.

It's not nearly rare enough for kids to get cases based on just this first week of school openings and what's already being reported.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: kaysixteen on August 05, 2020, 09:08:21 PM
Polly's plan would be a good idea, but it would also cost big dollars.   Who's gonna pay?   Most of these school districts cannot afford soap and sanitizer... who's gonna pony up the bucks for schemes like polly's to be put into place, and which big corporations are going to do so (hint, it ain't Walmart and other places getting rich now on the backs of their 'essential' workers-- not one dime in extra taxes on firms like this, or on rich folks, has been raised throughout this pandemic, for instance).
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Caracal on August 06, 2020, 04:54:04 AM
Another thing I forgot to mention is that, even were we to play devil's advocate and say, falsely, that prepubescent kids don't get serious covid cases, well, they sure enough can spread it to those who can.  Opening schools full-bore this semester more or less guarantees superspreader events from coast to coast.

Well, they can get serious cases, but it is legitimately quite rare.

Not quite.  This is an area where the evolving science discussion gets lost in translation to the media summaries.  Little kids weren't exposed early on because 'everywhere' clamped down quickly and only symptomatic people were being tested.

Kids weren't being studied.  Now that kids are being studied, they can get it and they can spread it.  There is some ongoing discussion about maybe kids don't spread at the same rate based on some preliminary studies, but even that may be more a function that kids weren't exposed at the same rates as older people, not any physiological differences.

It's not nearly rare enough for kids to get cases based on just this first week of school openings and what's already being reported.

Or, you know, that they can get it, COVID is quite widespread, so naturally there are quite a few cases, and examining retrospective studies and anecdotal data isn't a particularly reliable way to get good information on these questions. The early studies weren't perfect, but neither are these.

Of course for the question of reopening the vast majority of schools, it doesn't really matter right now. You had schools with students having symptoms and testing positive on the first day, causing whole classes to have to quarantine. Obviously, they didn't catch it at school, but it isn't going to work with the levels of disease we have now.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Caracal on August 06, 2020, 04:55:40 AM
Polly's plan would be a good idea, but it would also cost big dollars.   Who's gonna pay?   Most of these school districts cannot afford soap and sanitizer... who's gonna pony up the bucks for schemes like polly's to be put into place, and which big corporations are going to do so (hint, it ain't Walmart and other places getting rich now on the backs of their 'essential' workers-- not one dime in extra taxes on firms like this, or on rich folks, has been raised throughout this pandemic, for instance).

Obviously we wouldn't expect a federal government with deep reserves and the ability to borrow money to pay for this kind of thing. That would be like the federal government making sure states can get adequate tests or devising a national virus strategy.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: AmLitHist on August 06, 2020, 07:23:13 AM
Some young kids were developing a Kawasaki-like illness from COVID.  Is that still the case?  That kind of thing is nothing to mess with; also, some older patients are now reported to be having kidney, liver, heart, and brain damage resulting from the virus.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Caracal on August 06, 2020, 07:44:38 AM
Some young kids were developing a Kawasaki-like illness from COVID.  Is that still the case?  That kind of thing is nothing to mess with; also, some older patients are now reported to be having kidney, liver, heart, and brain damage resulting from the virus.

Yes, that syndrome is definitely real, but perspective is called for. It doesn't really change the reality that severe cases among children are very rare. New York identified a little under 200 of these cases with only a couple of deaths. That was in the state that has almost certainly had the highest prevalence of COVID in the population.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Caracal on August 06, 2020, 10:13:09 AM
Some useful perspective on kids and covid for those interested.  link=topic=1565.msg39852#msg39852
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: polly_mer on August 06, 2020, 10:50:58 AM
Polly's plan would be a good idea, but it would also cost big dollars.   Who's gonna pay?   Most of these school districts cannot afford soap and sanitizer... who's gonna pony up the bucks for schemes like polly's to be put into place, and which big corporations are going to do so (hint, it ain't Walmart and other places getting rich now on the backs of their 'essential' workers-- not one dime in extra taxes on firms like this, or on rich folks, has been raised throughout this pandemic, for instance).

Employers who need workers with childcare issues could step up for at least the organization.

Individual workers could band together and work it out as a babysitting collective.

Or we can do like so many people do and just wish harder that some government will solve all our problems because life is hard and it's never an individual's responsibility to sort out their own problems.  People who are great at contingency plans seldom work those non-medical, disposable front line jobs for long.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Caracal on August 06, 2020, 12:06:52 PM

Or we can do like so many people do and just wish harder that some government will solve all our problems because life is hard and it's never an individual's responsibility to sort out their own problems.  People who are great at contingency plans seldom work those non-medical, disposable front line jobs for long.

What a revolting thing to say.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: dismalist on August 06, 2020, 02:36:34 PM
Warren Buffett has noted that he thinks, half seriously, that  we should outlaw private k12 education in this country, in order to force American elites to utilize the public schools, so as to make such elites ensure that these schools are adequately funded ... .

What would Warren think if we outlawed private ownership of stock in corporations, had the government own those shares and run the companies, thus forcing American elites to utilize public firms so as to make sure such firms have adequate funding?
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: kaysixteen on August 06, 2020, 07:17:15 PM
That's an incoherent false analogy, dismalist.  It just is.   You see, don't you, Buffett's point regarding the horrifying inequities in American public k12 ed funding, something which is going to only get terrifyingly worse as we go through the pandemic, and the process of trying to get schools back open as soon as is reasonable, but to do so safely, and in a way that ensures ed standards are maintained.

And now we come to Polly's asinine remark, something straight out of the Gospel according to Ayn Rand.   What should I say about her thesis here?   Nothing I could say would change her mind.  One can just hope she won't be able to change anyone else's mind... or that, when she next has to slum herself by shopping in an establishment run by such scummy low-life trash who have failed to create a 'contingency' plan to get them out of their well-deserved situation, she won't be exposed to covid herself (especially if she brings her kid with  her), a fate which would sadly be greatly augmented when/ if these aforementioned scum have had to start sending their own parasitical mouths-to-feed brats to those underfunded, soapless 'schools', all the better to transmit their viral inheritance to their betters, like her.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: polly_mer on August 07, 2020, 05:34:55 AM
Oh, Kay.

The worry I have is the privileged people don't stay home and contribute to the spread making more people sick, which means more die.

If it comes to the point that I am of more value to society by taking my turn stocking shelves or overseeing the self-checkout, then I have full confidence that I can learn to do so.

However, people who can do the professional jobs I've held will not be spending much time in the jobs that a middleschooler of adequate physical size and ability can learn to do.  They will move up to management or they will get another job elsewhere to move up a different career ladder.

Yes, that means something for you personally.  However, I'm not wrong about how few people who can do other jobs spend years in the jobs that are relatively low-paying and can be mastered in weeks so those jobs don't have to pay more.  Lots of people start there or spend time there on the way to elsewhere, but I stand by the assertion that people who can do better do do better on the scale of years.

I say that as someone who started in below modest circumstances and know first hand the difference between working hard and working effectively.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: dismalist on August 07, 2020, 01:40:08 PM
Warren Buffett has noted that he thinks, half seriously, that  we should outlaw private k12 education in this country, in order to force American elites to utilize the public schools, so as to make such elites ensure that these schools are adequately funded ... .

What would Warren think if we outlawed private ownership of stock in corporations, had the government own those shares and run the companies, thus forcing American elites to utilize public firms so as to make sure such firms have adequate funding?

That's an incoherent false analogy, dismalist.  It just is.   You see, don't you, Buffett's point regarding the horrifying inequities in American public k12 ed funding, something which is going to only get terrifyingly worse as we go through the pandemic, and the process of trying to get schools back open as soon as is reasonable, but to do so safely, and in a way that ensures ed standards are maintained.


By pure chance I found a statement by Ed Glaeser that the other Warren, Elizabeth, [propounds an] Accountable Capitalism Act [that] expects all large firms to obtain a “new federal charter” obligating them to pay heed to the interests of “corporate stakeholders”—from employees to surrounding communities.

Well, we can turn our market economy into something akin to the school system! :-)
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: kaysixteen on August 07, 2020, 10:42:49 PM
Lots of people could do a job that is better/ more advanced, etc., than the one they got now, but there ain't enough jobs in many if not most of these more sophisticated areas than folks who could and would take em.  One might believe one is so superior that one will certainly beat the odds, etc., but, well.... maybe so, maybe not.  What exactly, and I am trying, I guess, to give you a chance to explain yourself, would be the contingency plans most of these lower-income people should have, how could they get such a contingency in place, etc.?
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: apl68 on August 10, 2020, 07:57:04 AM
Our local grade school is a couple of blocks up from where I live.  The teachers are now coming in making their preparations to reopen.  The children will be there in a few more days.  We'll see.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: wellfleet on August 10, 2020, 08:44:05 AM
First day of synchronous class for wellkid's high school today and it looked like his science teacher was Zooming from a tide pool. Keeping our fingers crossed . . . .
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: mamselle on August 10, 2020, 08:48:00 AM
This is the follow-up article to the young woman suspended for posting a picture of non-socially distanced, unmasked throngs in her high-school hallway in Georgia:

    https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/08/10/us/paulding-school-crowded-halls-threats/index.html

This is on another school's discussion and decision-making trajectory: they're going to remote for grades 4-12:

   https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/8/9/cambridge-public-schools-remote-fall/ 

M.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: mamselle on August 13, 2020, 06:28:21 AM
Double a few days later: One family's decision-making tree:

   https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/12/health/covid-kids-school-gupta-essay/index.html
 

M.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: FishProf on August 13, 2020, 06:37:12 AM
This is the follow-up article to the young woman suspended for posting a picture of non-socially distanced, unmasked throngs in her high-school hallway in Georgia:

    https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/08/10/us/paulding-school-crowded-halls-threats/index.html

This is on another school's discussion and decision-making trajectory: they're going to remote for grades 4-12:

   https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/8/9/cambridge-public-schools-remote-fall/ 

M.

I wonder if this is where Smolt's (G3) school got their plans.  Survey sent yesterday - Do you prefer:
Plan A: K-3 F2F all day every day, 4-12 some hybrid split day plan; or
Plan B: K-12 All remote.

Why yes, I do prefer middle grounds, where they are offered.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: apl68 on August 13, 2020, 07:34:56 AM
Staff here, who spend an awful lot of time worrying about everything, are now fearful that we'll be inundated by kids trying to do remote work and running everywhere spreading germs once school opens.  Actually we've seen very, very few children here this summer.  I'm afraid that our inability to provide our normal summer reading program has caused us to fall completely off of parents' radar.  I doubt we're going to have anything like our normal (modest) number of children coming here during the school year.

Nonetheless, to reassure them I've dedicated my latest library column in the local paper to reminding parents that families and students who come here will be expected to practice social distancing, that limited availability of computers means we'll have to prioritize educational use over gaming and videos, and that we are not able to have unaccompanied pre-teens here.

I hope that parents and children DO come, as there are useful services that we can still offer.  I wish there was more we could do, but our remote access resources and expertise here are so painfully limited.  And the staff member whose responsibility it is for managing what we do have is the one who has been out for weeks and is malingering about coming back. 
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: nebo113 on August 14, 2020, 04:30:25 AM
60 new cases in 4 days in small, rural county of about 37,000.  One small school district already open.  County district opening next week.  Insanity.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Economizer on August 14, 2020, 07:21:09 PM
Bad asses and others that get mean for whatever reasons, boys and girls both, will be the unknown factor in the 2020 fall startups. Sturgislike bravado, maybe? Further and more efficient controls on the immaturity of the immature? Maybe when terror in their immediate vicinity is realized. The best course is to instill a good sense of responsibility and the need for being positive role models by team members and other activity participants. I have worked in schools where athletic squads were prepared to be quickly directed to control assignments by their coaches in certain instances.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: hmaria1609 on August 16, 2020, 05:57:59 PM
Maryland and Virginia counties will offer child care in school buildings:
https://wtop.com/local/2020/08/md-va-counties-will-offer-child-care-programs-in-school-buildings-during-remote-learning/ (https://wtop.com/local/2020/08/md-va-counties-will-offer-child-care-programs-in-school-buildings-during-remote-learning/)
Posted on WTOP Radio online (8/16/20)
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: apl68 on August 18, 2020, 07:22:47 AM
One of my mother's former students, who is responsible for ESL classes in her district, has just been told that she has a week to put all classes online.  Evidently the district planned to be face-to-face, then panicked and decided to go online at the last minute. 

There are also reports coming in of a district in Our Neighbor to the South that has had to flee online because the very first week of class predictably blew up the number of infections in what was already a hot spot city.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: nebo113 on August 19, 2020, 04:39:13 AM
District went virtual 4 days before school starts.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Parasaurolophus on September 15, 2020, 08:31:14 AM
K-12 started last weekish here and in other parts of the country, but is postponed at least until the 22 in Ontario.

Since the daily new cases are kind of high in the three biggest provinces (over 600 a day between them for the last while), and the transmission rate is above 1, I rather suspect we're in for a shutdown and a shift back online in the near future. So far, this doesn't seem related to schools at all, but I think it's only a matter of time.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: apl68 on September 15, 2020, 09:36:24 AM
So far so good in our local schools.  But we just added three new cases in our county overnight, so the overall situation's still worrisome.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: ab_grp on September 15, 2020, 10:21:43 AM
Our K-12 schools are online, but there have been several cases at various schools involving staff members.  I think the admin is supposed to make a decision about returning after Oct 15, but my guess is remote learning will continue through the end of the semester (at least).
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: polly_mer on September 16, 2020, 05:00:54 AM
Lots of people could do a job that is better/ more advanced, etc., than the one they got now, but there ain't enough jobs in many if not most of these more sophisticated areas than folks who could and would take em.  One might believe one is so superior that one will certainly beat the odds, etc., but, well.... maybe so, maybe not.  What exactly, and I am trying, I guess, to give you a chance to explain yourself, would be the contingency plans most of these lower-income people should have, how could they get such a contingency in place, etc.?

Since no one else wrote it:

1) The people who come from lower SES families in a dying place need to leave the area to have a good shot at anything. 

2)  Education alone doesn't fix the problem of having fewer and fewer jobs that can be done by the person of average intelligence with minimal training in that specific job family.

3) People who aren't competitive for one of the few good jobs are just screwed and getting more screwed.  There's no plan that can be put in place individually.  Those folks need to either opt for a different life that doesn't revolve around paid employment (e.g., subsistence farming, informal barter economy) or they will continue to slowly be on the edge waiting to drop below being able to live inside and eat regularly. 
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Caracal on September 16, 2020, 06:54:38 AM
Lots of people could do a job that is better/ more advanced, etc., than the one they got now, but there ain't enough jobs in many if not most of these more sophisticated areas than folks who could and would take em.  One might believe one is so superior that one will certainly beat the odds, etc., but, well.... maybe so, maybe not.  What exactly, and I am trying, I guess, to give you a chance to explain yourself, would be the contingency plans most of these lower-income people should have, how could they get such a contingency in place, etc.?

Since no one else wrote it:

1) The people who come from lower SES families in a dying place need to leave the area to have a good shot at anything. 

2)  Education alone doesn't fix the problem of having fewer and fewer jobs that can be done by the person of average intelligence with minimal training in that specific job family.

3) People who aren't competitive for one of the few good jobs are just screwed and getting more screwed.  There's no plan that can be put in place individually.  Those folks need to either opt for a different life that doesn't revolve around paid employment (e.g., subsistence farming, informal barter economy) or they will continue to slowly be on the edge waiting to drop below being able to live inside and eat regularly.

Gee, I wonder why these people don't just realize this and move somewhere else?

The obvious answer is that mobility gets more difficult, not less when you're poor. Wealthy and middle class people are more likely to have the sort of family connections that can translate across distances. If you're poor, you usually rely a lot on family and friends for things like childcare, but if you move, you lose all of that social insurance and if things go wrong you've got no backup. You also might be leaving behind family members who rely on you, especially elderly or disabled people. Also, moving is expensive. It would be nice if every place where jobs were plentiful was welcoming to everyone, but surely you can also understand that if you're black, you might have some very real concerns about just picking up and moving to some random part of the country where there may not be lots of other black people.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: kaysixteen on September 16, 2020, 08:22:35 PM
Whilst I do believe that some of her regular nemeses around here have mistreated Polly over the years, sometimes, and sadly increasingly so in recent months, she just says dumb stuff.   Stuff that owes more or less everything to the Gospel according to Ayn Rand.  In a parallel universe.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: nebo113 on September 17, 2020, 06:09:43 AM
Lots of people could do a job that is better/ more advanced, etc., than the one they got now, but there ain't enough jobs in many if not most of these more sophisticated areas than folks who could and would take em.  One might believe one is so superior that one will certainly beat the odds, etc., but, well.... maybe so, maybe not.  What exactly, and I am trying, I guess, to give you a chance to explain yourself, would be the contingency plans most of these lower-income people should have, how could they get such a contingency in place, etc.?

Since no one else wrote it:

1) The people who come from lower SES families in a dying place need to leave the area to have a good shot at anything. 

2)  Education alone doesn't fix the problem of having fewer and fewer jobs that can be done by the person of average intelligence with minimal training in that specific job family.

3) People who aren't competitive for one of the few good jobs are just screwed and getting more screwed.  There's no plan that can be put in place individually.  Those folks need to either opt for a different life that doesn't revolve around paid employment (e.g., subsistence farming, informal barter economy) or they will continue to slowly be on the edge waiting to drop below being able to live inside and eat regularly.

Gee, I wonder why these people don't just realize this and move somewhere else?

The obvious answer is that mobility gets more difficult, not less when you're poor. Wealthy and middle class people are more likely to have the sort of family connections that can translate across distances. If you're poor, you usually rely a lot on family and friends for things like childcare, but if you move, you lose all of that social insurance and if things go wrong you've got no backup. You also might be leaving behind family members who rely on you, especially elderly or disabled people. Also, moving is expensive. It would be nice if every place where jobs were plentiful was welcoming to everyone, but surely you can also understand that if you're black, you might have some very real concerns about just picking up and moving to some random part of the country where there may not be lots of other black people.

I live in one of those poor, rural areas where coal was the only industry and now isn't.  We got nothing to replace it.  Yesterday, a man in his 50s came to do some yard work for me.  He'd been laid off from one of the few coal companies still pulling coal.  THERE ARE NO JOBS HERE.  He isn't dumb, but more schooling isn't the answer for him.  He's considering leaving the area BUT WHERE DOES A BIG TRUCK MECHANIC, with nothing other than years of experience but no paper credentials,  GET A JOB?????  He's screwed but good.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: FishProf on September 17, 2020, 06:40:39 AM
Shooting the messenger(s) does no good when:

1) What is happening now is not, and can not, work
2) The only viable solution is not possible.

Well and truly screwed. 

So what do we DO?
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: ciao_yall on September 17, 2020, 08:04:28 AM
I live in one of those poor, rural areas where coal was the only industry and now isn't.  We got nothing to replace it.  Yesterday, a man in his 50s came to do some yard work for me.  He'd been laid off from one of the few coal companies still pulling coal.  THERE ARE NO JOBS HERE.  He isn't dumb, but more schooling isn't the answer for him.  He's considering leaving the area BUT WHERE DOES A BIG TRUCK MECHANIC, with nothing other than years of experience but no paper credentials,  GET A JOB?????  He's screwed but good.

Trucking companies. Railways, bus services, public transit agencies. We are facing a shortage of aircraft mechanics in our area and the airlines are ramping up training.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Parasaurolophus on September 17, 2020, 10:37:58 AM
My BIL is a mining equipment mechanic. He and my sister recently moved several provinces over. He has a new job doing mechanical work for the forestry and oil industries.

But his old job still flies him back periodically to work on the mining equipment.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: kaysixteen on September 17, 2020, 11:34:24 AM
Skilled big truck mechanics do have many more specific skills than most of these displaced workers we are talking about here, and yes, there are places that would hire em.  But age discrimination is still there, and, of course, all the problems attendant with moving to the location where jobs may be found remain, and moving is actually harder in one's mid-50s, by a lot, than it would be for someone even in their 30s.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Vkw10 on September 17, 2020, 07:12:38 PM
I wonder if the big truck mechanic would be qualified for a job as a SC school bus mechanic? I have a relative in the SC Department of Education who tells me that bus mechanics and statisticians are always in demand there. He finds it ironic that one requires a GED and experience, while the other requires a Ph.D. but that’s the two jobs they can’t keep filled.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: lightning on September 19, 2020, 12:29:15 PM
This thread sure got off-topic, but what is being said and revealed is important.

I taught in a rural super-dinky. This rural area that I was in was devastated by the closure of the primary economic driver (manufacturing) of their small community.

What are we to do for them?

In my brief time there, I contracted a regular housekeeper, a lawn person, a regular in-home care-giver, and a person that did regular odd jobs for me. All four were once directly employed by the primary economic driver or indirectly.

The best thing I did for them was not that I hired them and that they had a little earned $ as a result. The most important part was that I treated them with dignity and respect and expressed that I was dependent on their services (and I truly was dependent on them) and compensated them for my dependency on them. That goes a long way, in addition to the simple $.

A small college cannot, all of a sudden, be the savior for a dying community, where a once proud populace has been reduced to relying on government programs, charity, and odd jobs (over the long haul, student-by-student, yes, but displaced manufacturing workers are not in a position to commit to the same career/life preparation that is suitable for a teenager, nor do they have the same assumed mobility). However, a college's individual faculty, staff, and admin who are privileged with a good job, can at least recognize their challenges and make their day-to-day interactions with them one of dignity. That begins with not advising people to move and get a job and to wipe the smug air of superiority off of our faces and not make our degrees and academic titles the differentiator between us and "the other."

Coming back to the original topic, my urban area is seeing an uptick in COVID-19 cases in the schools (k-12 and higher-ed). Not big, yet, but significantly trending upwards. If we don't contain it, we are screwed. Bringing back the topic of those that are socioeconomically dis-advantaged, the USA in their response to COVID-19 is uniquely positioned to fail. We simply do not have the social safety net and social programs in place to encourage people to socially distance. And our culture ridicules the unemployed. Parents from lower socioeconomic rungs are sending their kids to physical school because they have no choice, if they want to go to work. It's no wonder that we are failing.




Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: mamselle on September 20, 2020, 10:54:54 AM
Our local public schools start back tomorrow, with two days (M and W, I think) in-school, three days at home per week.

(They would usually have opened the day after Labor Day; they waited in order to give people time to quarantine from end-of-summer trips, I suspect.)

I once subbed in this system. I have mixed feelings about the prognosis. Some families will be good, careful, and compliant. Others, not so much.

It will be interesting to see how long it lasts before they're back to fully online....I suspect sooner rather than later, although they might make it work.

M.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Stockmann on September 20, 2020, 11:41:03 AM
However, a college's individual faculty, staff, and admin who are privileged with a good job, can at least recognize their challenges and make their day-to-day interactions with them one of dignity. That begins with not advising people to move and get a job and to wipe the smug air of superiority off of our faces and not make our degrees and academic titles the differentiator between us and "the other."

You're conflating two completely different things - treating people without academic degrees or title with smug superiority and as the "other," and recognizing on the other hand that sometimes leaving is the only viable option, which is semetimes true also for academics. I've known enough fools with PhDs, or toxic, nasty, dysfunctional or dishonest people with them, or other higher degrees, to not assume a PhD says anything much about a person outside of a very narrow professional context, and I am or have been close to people who don't have a PhD or indeed, a higher degree. But I also have little sympathy with people who are doing badly in a place that is doing badly (or worse, a dying town) but choose to make no attempt to leave. This is partly due to my own experience - I've lived in three different parts of my own (developing) country, which has convinced me that if a region is persistently doing badly, then all the can-do risk-takers will either succeed locally or leave, whereas if a place is doing comparatively well it will attract can-do risk-takers, while people who won't leave narrow comfort zones will stay put in either case - which in turn creates different local cultures which perpetuate economic differences.
Of course the lower you are on the socioeconomic scale the harder it is to move - indeed, the harder it is to do pretty much anything, but the lower on the scale also means the less you have to lose by leaving.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: polly_mer on September 20, 2020, 01:07:12 PM
Whilst I do believe that some of her regular nemeses around here have mistreated Polly over the years, sometimes, and sadly increasingly so in recent months, she just says dumb stuff.   Stuff that owes more or less everything to the Gospel according to Ayn Rand.  In a parallel universe.

Many people are just screwed at this point and that number is increasing as the competency level to be paid for a middle class job that needs to be done increases past the point that a person of average intelligence and skills can do

There is no solution that saves those lives while letting the rest of us have good lives in a modern American sense.

But, sure, the problem is I'm dumb for knowing too much about reality instead of reality being very dire at this point., even though I did move in middle age before the college closed and we had no options.  Super Dinky will not be open fall 2021.

Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Vkw10 on September 20, 2020, 06:50:05 PM
Back to topic of thread.

Most of the schools in this area are online temporarily. At least one has face-to-face on alternating days, with students doing self-study with worksheets on their at home days. Reactions of parents I know range from “it’s going better than I feared” to “it’s a total disaster.” Some of the difference is clearly related to what the school’s implemented, while some is related to age and abilities of child. No one seems to have any idea when schools will return to usual schedules.

My university will open spring registration soon. We have a faculty member seriously considering asking for unpaid leave for spring semester. His spouse is hospital physician, so he’s trying to handle remote school for two young children while teaching online himself. It’s not going well. I may have to sub for him this semester if school stays remote.

This pandemic has certainly made the role of public schools as childcare providers for working parents evident. It’s also rather frightening to see just how much of safety net depends on children attending school, as child nutrition programs, medical screenings, vaccinations, and other programs were funneled through schools. It makes me wonder how teachers have time to do any teaching.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: apl68 on September 21, 2020, 07:51:55 AM
We've had a rash of quarantines at our high school, including much of the football team.  Not many active cases thus far.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: Caracal on September 21, 2020, 08:13:51 AM

There is no solution that saves those lives while letting the rest of us have good lives in a modern American sense.



Of course there are options. Is there some magic bullet that could fix problems of deindustrialization? No, but there are lots of things that could improve the situation. They would just cost money.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: apl68 on September 24, 2020, 07:21:57 AM
We're now up to over 20 active cases in our county.  I assume that they are largely associated with the schools.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: spork on September 28, 2020, 03:52:50 PM
Good ProPublica and New Yorker article on the potential educational costs to poor children of closing K-12 schools:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/10/05/the-students-left-behind-by-remote-learning (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/10/05/the-students-left-behind-by-remote-learning).
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: nebo113 on September 29, 2020, 06:24:35 AM
We're now up to over 20 active cases in our county.  I assume that they are largely associated with the schools.

Our active cases in small rural county is increasing and schools opened yesterday.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: apl68 on September 29, 2020, 07:20:19 AM
The teachers' union in Little Rock has said that they are only going to offer online instruction until further notice:

https://katv.com/news/local/little-rock-teachers-wont-show-up-for-in-person-union-says

Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: apl68 on October 02, 2020, 07:26:19 AM
Our local schools have found offering in-person instruction five days a week so awkward that they are going to start going online-only on Mondays.


In Little Rock the teachers' union received such negative feedback that they reversed themselves on the refusal to teach in-person.  Now some of the parents are refusing to show up for online classes:


https://katv.com/news/local/lrsd-parents-plan-virtual-blackout-demand-change-for-students-and-teachers

Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: FishProf on October 02, 2020, 07:55:21 AM

In Little Rock the teachers' union received such negative feedback that they reversed themselves on the refusal to teach in-person.  Now some of the parents are refusing to show up for online classes:

https://katv.com/news/local/lrsd-parents-plan-virtual-blackout-demand-change-for-students-and-teachers

Wrong link?  That doesn't say what you implied.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: apl68 on October 02, 2020, 08:07:10 AM

In Little Rock the teachers' union received such negative feedback that they reversed themselves on the refusal to teach in-person.  Now some of the parents are refusing to show up for online classes:

https://katv.com/news/local/lrsd-parents-plan-virtual-blackout-demand-change-for-students-and-teachers

Wrong link?  That doesn't say what you implied.

Sorry, that article didn't include the part about the teachers calling off the refusal to hold face-to-face classes:


https://www.thv11.com/article/news/local/little-rock/little-rock-teacher-organization-announces-they-will-not-report-to-in-person-classes/91-77cbb42f-be63-491d-9558-c9e0031d1bc4

Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: FishProf on October 02, 2020, 11:11:18 AM
OK, that's better.  But above you said
In Little Rock the teachers' union received such negative feedback that they reversed themselves on the refusal to teach in-person. 

The new link you provided said they reversed after 68 of them were disciplined.

"Negative feedback" implies the public (parents) were angry at the strike action.  That isn't what the link you shared says. 

Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: apl68 on October 02, 2020, 12:58:06 PM
OK, that's better.  But above you said
In Little Rock the teachers' union received such negative feedback that they reversed themselves on the refusal to teach in-person. 

The new link you provided said they reversed after 68 of them were disciplined.

"Negative feedback" implies the public (parents) were angry at the strike action.  That isn't what the link you shared says.

To me, discipline seems like a pretty definite form of "feedback."  I can see how my choice of words was inexact.  Sorry.
Title: Re: K-12 fall plans
Post by: FishProf on October 02, 2020, 02:05:16 PM
OK, that's better.  But above you said
In Little Rock the teachers' union received such negative feedback that they reversed themselves on the refusal to teach in-person. 

The new link you provided said they reversed after 68 of them were disciplined.

"Negative feedback" implies the public (parents) were angry at the strike action.  That isn't what the link you shared says.

To me, discipline seems like a pretty definite form of "feedback."  I can see how my choice of words was inexact.  Sorry.

I wonder if there will/can be any repercussions of the discipline that was handed down (what ever that was).  In my union, we're told that if we get a direct order that violates the contract, we should do as ordered and then grieve.  "The Contract" isn't a good reason to refuse, and may lead to firing for "insubordination"

I have no idea if that is true, but it is what we've been told.