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General Discussion / Re: the "things you wish you could say" thread
« Last post by nescafe on February 16, 2020, 10:23:22 AM »
Twitter folk (or social media in general): it is 100 percent possible to amplify/"signal boost" someone's message without outwardly saying that is what you're doing. I checked, and I promise it is possible. RT/Share.

The addition of an extra comment that you are "signal boosting" them is annoying. And it's so baldly performative and self-centered that I kind of judge you for doing it.
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General Discussion / Re: 'People of Color' Term is Already Running into Trouble
« Last post by mahagonny on February 16, 2020, 09:57:16 AM »
What is there to say, really? We should refer to and call groups of people by the names they wish us to use for them, and we should be reflective in our use of those names. Language isn't static, and the terms we use change as our usage drifts, and some cease to be useful for the purposes to which we previously put them.

Yes. This seems like a straightforward example of the euphemism treadmill, where euphemisms are used to refer to unpleasant subjects, but simply by association with those subjects they become themselves taboo, and so new euphemisms must be found. For example: water closet -> toilet -> (in N. America) bathroom/washroom -> restroom. We're constantly looking for more delicate ways to refer to pooping.

In this case it's not the topic itself that is taboo, but the unpleasant emotional load that keeps being associated with it by a subset of the population. Terms for minority groups are either corrupted or simply used with racist intents, so the groups ask to be referred to by other terms that do not carry the unpleasant emotional load of the previous terms. Then racists start using the new terms racistly, and so the new terms are now contaminated, and must be changed again.

This is not an instance of minority groups being perpetually dissatisfied, but rather an instance of racists polluting what they touch. And, as with all pollution, there are two solutions: avoid it or clean it up.  An individual cannot solve racism, but they can at least not use racist terms when explicitly asked not to.

The author does not seem to think the mess can be cleaned up this easily. I think I agree with her in spots. People who look black are black. That part's easy. Why did that need changing? Also I don't know what I am being asked to call people. People at work use POC when referring to themselves in my presence. But it only recently dawned on me that 'POC' is not just another term for 'black' it's more like an umbrella. (I should get out more.) And are these settled questions among the non-Caucasian people involved? I wonder.
Spell correct wants to write 'rakishly' in place of 'racistly.' There's another problem. But thanks for the new word. I bet I'm safe using it until I visit friends in North Dakota.
BTW I have a friend who's a billionaire or close to it. But instead of 'person of means' which might sound pejorative maybe I should call him 'giver to charity.'
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General Discussion / Re: The Inhale Thread !
« Last post by ergative on February 16, 2020, 09:31:59 AM »
I'm in the capital for a week-long training course in geometric art (a newish interest of mine), which happened to overlap with our mid-semester break, so I can do it without even missing any classes. And Absolutive came with me for the weekend, where we went to see an exhibition at a museum, visited wonderful, wonderful local bookstores, ate really good pizza, had cocktails, and made a pilgrimage to a neighborhood where some of his heros lived (and about whom he's been reading a group biography). It's been such a nice weekend, and now my class starts tomorrow and I'm really excited for it.

After Absolutive left, I caught up on Picard, which is a very, very good show!
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General Discussion / Re: The Inhale Thread !
« Last post by mamselle on February 16, 2020, 09:20:49 AM »
Glad things are better...all good thoughts for continued healing in all dimensions.


My inhale: two friends and I had a spur-of-the-moment "UnValintine's Party" last night.

We went to a good crepes cafe, ate crepes, drank tea, and shared a chocolate-Strawberry-chantilly crepe for dessert. (Before and After photos of the plate suggest how good it was!l)

The rules were:
  1. No red, no pink, no lace.
  2. No flowers (we decided candy or sweets might be OK...hence the dessert crepe at the end!)

We spent three hours eating, discussing drawing, travel, quilting, painting, museums, knitting, new homes (two had recently moved), books, France, Quebec, Vancouver, California, jewelry, job hunting, and...oh, libraries.

No romantic relationships, or their lack, were even considered. They never even came up.

It was a fine evening.

M.
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Thanks, This has been very helpful.

I summarized several of the comments and forwarded them to my friend's friend, and then we discussed them. We agreed that, taking the issues raised into consideration, the writer needs to decide between the two options Spork suggested: either scrub the dialect and rework the book for it's original YP audience, or keep the dialect and turn it into an adult book.

I suggested she look at some of the examples people named, plus maybe a re-read of "To Kill a Mockingbird," and Bradbury's "Dandelion Wine" to see if the child's voice within an adult framework could work for her story. (I'm now remembering, "A Member of the Wedding" might be good, too.)

She's going to read those and sit with her thoughts for a bit before deciding, which I think is wise.

It's been very helpful to have this input so clearly and thoughtfully made...many thanks.

M.
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General Discussion / Re: 'People of Color' Term is Already Running into Trouble
« Last post by ergative on February 16, 2020, 03:57:12 AM »
What is there to say, really? We should refer to and call groups of people by the names they wish us to use for them, and we should be reflective in our use of those names. Language isn't static, and the terms we use change as our usage drifts, and some cease to be useful for the purposes to which we previously put them.

Yes. This seems like a straightforward example of the euphemism treadmill, where euphemisms are used to refer to unpleasant subjects, but simply by association with those subjects they become themselves taboo, and so new euphemisms must be found. For example: water closet -> toilet -> (in N. America) bathroom/washroom -> restroom. We're constantly looking for more delicate ways to refer to pooping.

In this case it's not the topic itself that is taboo, but the unpleasant emotional load that keeps being associated with it by a subset of the population. Terms for minority groups are either corrupted or simply used with racist intents, so the groups ask to be referred to by other terms that do not carry the unpleasant emotional load of the previous terms. Then racists start using the new terms racistly, and so the new terms are now contaminated, and must be changed again.

This is not an instance of minority groups being perpetually dissatisfied, but rather an instance of racists polluting what they touch. And, as with all pollution, there are two solutions: avoid it or clean it up.  An individual cannot solve racism, but they can at least not use racist terms when explicitly asked not to.
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General Discussion / Re: 'People of Color' Term is Already Running into Trouble
« Last post by Parasaurolophus on February 15, 2020, 11:04:48 PM »
What is there to say, really? We should refer to and call groups of people by the names they wish us to use for them, and we should be reflective in our use of those names. Language isn't static, and the terms we use change as our usage drifts, and some cease to be useful for the purposes to which we previously put them.
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General Discussion / Re: 'People of Color' Term is Already Running into Trouble
« Last post by Anselm on February 15, 2020, 09:27:52 PM »
When did POC ask to be called by that name? 
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General Discussion / Re: 'People of Color' Term is Already Running into Trouble
« Last post by mamselle on February 15, 2020, 08:19:10 PM »
Interesting, in looking up something else on the old forum, this board appeared:

   https://www.chronicle.com/forums/index.php/board,43.0.html

and within it, this thread...

   https://www.chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,28983.0.html

from 2006.

Just as a bit of historic interest, perhaps...

M.
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General Discussion / 'People of Color' Term is Already Running into Trouble
« Last post by mahagonny on February 15, 2020, 07:43:33 PM »
https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/02/people-of-color-phrase-history-racism.html

Discuss please, particularly if you are a language expert, or if you are not. What is your responsibility to respond to this and other related discussions? (Wow, it's a year old already!)
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