Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 56338 times)

mamselle

  • Use your wit and intelligence to figure out how to be kinder
  • Distinguished Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
  • Wondering, Wandering Sr. Member
  • CHE Posts: 4,618
Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1185 on: November 20, 2020, 02:36:17 PM »
My university is requiring faculty to attend fall graduation in person shortly after Thanksgiving. I have similar concerns about its role as a super-spreader event. No photo op is worth COVID.

Update: email from university today encouraged everyone at the school to "continue to practice measures to minimize the opportunities for infection."

In apparently unrelated news, graduation is still proceeding in person as scheduled.

Spouse and I have determined that "faculty disobedience" (Mamselle's words upthread) is forthcoming, regardless of the penalties, but I'm secretly hoping that someone will realize the foolhardiness of this event and decide to move it online. Surely "10% of Graduating Class Stricken with Covid after Super-Spreader Commencement" would not be a desirable headline. What are these people thinking?

AR.

Actually, that was the post before mine--the_genetecist's, I believe--so I can't take the credit, but I suspect a little "faculty disobedience" would not come amiss in several recent scenarios.

Go for it.

M.
Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

Reprove not a scorner, lest they hate thee: rebuke the wise, and they will love thee.

Give instruction to the wise, and they will be yet wiser: teach the just, and they will increase in learning.

Parasaurolophus

  • near crested lizard
  • Senior Moderator
  • Distinguished Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1979
  • CHE Posts: 1640
Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1186 on: November 20, 2020, 02:42:32 PM »
We're back under lockdown, with gatherings limited to our households. But... restaurants and bars will remain open for in-person indoors dining. I don't get it.
I know it's a genus.

the_geneticist

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 557
Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1187 on: November 20, 2020, 03:03:57 PM »
Go to the graduation in a hazmat suit.  Imagine the negative publicity when those pictures get onto social media.

AvidReader is a first-year faculty member. I think the hazmat suit idea, however attractive, should be reserved for faculty with tenure.

Spouse and I actually discussed a hazmat suit (or similarly extensive PPE) at some length. Given that I am indeed new, and haven't interacted with many colleagues, I'm not actually sure which option (hazmat or absence) would be more frowned upon. I have indirect access to a range of PPE if necessary, but I'm also leery of using it on something so (in my estimation) frivolous, especially as it seems possible that we could have shortages again soon.

AR.

I dare you to ask your department chair if they would prefer that you appear in full PPE or graciously decline to attend. 
We could help design your wardrobe!
Does the tam go over or under the face shield?  Do you wear a mask in the colors of your current school or from your alma mater?  Should you try to match your gloves to your hood and gown or is it OK if they clash?  Foot coverings - are they gauche unless you pair them with scrub pants?

clean

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 765
  • CHE Posts: 5416
Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1188 on: November 20, 2020, 04:44:30 PM »
Just make sure that your suit fist under your regalia! 

"The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am"  Darth Vader

Kron3007

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 394
Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1189 on: November 20, 2020, 07:11:32 PM »
We're back under lockdown, with gatherings limited to our households. But... restaurants and bars will remain open for in-person indoors dining. I don't get it.

It seems silly on the surface, but it is my understanding that contact tracing shows that the majority of spread is coming from social gatherings and restaurants are not a major contributor.  I have only been inside a restaurant once during the pandemic, but the protocols seemed pretty good and apparently are working fairly well.  In contrast, when people visit friends, they let their guard down and there are no protocols in place.

So, if it is true that restaurants are not a major source of spread, this makes sense and it would be wrong to close them down.  We should be using data to strategically shut things down rather than blanket shutdowns like in the beginning, unless eradicating Covid is the goal but it looks like that ship has sailed


AvidReader

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1190 on: November 21, 2020, 05:09:54 AM »
Actually, that was the post before mine--the_genetecist's, I believe--so I can't take the credit, but I suspect a little "faculty disobedience" would not come amiss in several recent scenarios.

Whoops! Sorry to both of you! I will deduct points from my post for the citation error.

I dare you to ask your department chair if they would prefer that you appear in full PPE or graciously decline to attend. 
We could help design your wardrobe!
Does the tam go over or under the face shield?  Do you wear a mask in the colors of your current school or from your alma mater?  Should you try to match your gloves to your hood and gown or is it OK if they clash?  Foot coverings - are they gauche unless you pair them with scrub pants?

the_geneticist, my Alma Mater colors clash with most things and would look particularly awful with the standard (pastel) gown and glove colors that I tend to see. But employing uni here has fancy branded face masks that I do not wear because they are very, very thin and cling to the face like a stocking mask, so I could put one of those somewhere (on top of something actually protective) to make sure the university was well-represented.

clean, my regalia is enormous and billowy. I might be able to fit an astronaut suit under it. Not sure how much room I have at the seams where the arms attach, though. That would be the tight spot.

AR.

apl68

  • Distinguished Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1264
Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1191 on: November 21, 2020, 06:13:10 AM »
We're back under lockdown, with gatherings limited to our households. But... restaurants and bars will remain open for in-person indoors dining. I don't get it.

It seems silly on the surface, but it is my understanding that contact tracing shows that the majority of spread is coming from social gatherings and restaurants are not a major contributor.  I have only been inside a restaurant once during the pandemic, but the protocols seemed pretty good and apparently are working fairly well.  In contrast, when people visit friends, they let their guard down and there are no protocols in place.

So, if it is true that restaurants are not a major source of spread, this makes sense and it would be wrong to close them down.  We should be using data to strategically shut things down rather than blanket shutdowns like in the beginning, unless eradicating Covid is the goal but it looks like that ship has sailed

That's my sense as well.  The window to eradicate it has long since closed.  We're just going to have to live for it for a while.  That means letting people go about their business, while still following best practices to mitigate risk.  As you said, restaurant protocols seem to be working pretty well, so I've had no qualms about very occasionally going to one.  That said, I'm staying away from them in the run-up to Thanksgiving.

Cheerful

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 644
Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1192 on: November 21, 2020, 08:29:51 AM »
So, if it is true that restaurants are not a major source of spread, this makes sense and it would be wrong to close them down.  We should be using data to strategically shut things down rather than blanket shutdowns like in the beginning, unless eradicating Covid is the goal but it looks like that ship has sailed

Some researchers and policymakers recently pointed to dining in a restaurant as a major potential source of COVID spread.  This is why many restaurants try to do outdoor dining when the weather cooperates.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6936a5.htm

"What is added by this report?

Findings from a case-control investigation of symptomatic outpatients from 11 U.S. health care facilities found that close contact with persons with known COVID-19 or going to locations that offer on-site eating and drinking options were associated with COVID-19 positivity. Adults with positive SARS-CoV-2 test results were approximately twice as likely to have reported dining at a restaurant than were those with negative SARS-CoV-2 test results.

What are the implications for public health practice?

Eating and drinking on-site at locations that offer such options might be important risk factors associated with SARS-CoV-2 infection. Efforts to reduce possible exposures where mask use and social distancing are difficult to maintain, such as when eating and drinking, should be considered to protect customers, employees, and communities."
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 08:32:48 AM by Cheerful »

histchick

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 36
  • CHE Posts: 530
Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1193 on: November 21, 2020, 08:55:03 AM »
I think it's time for a little faculty disobedience!  Offer to attend as a cardboard cutout or on a Zoom screen.  No way I'd go to an in-person event.

I have considered that. We have had in-person classes all semester, so I've been exposed pretty much every weekday to small clumps of students anyway. Spouse--a "front line" worker anyway--has also offered to attend in my stead, fully clad in HAZMAT gear. Who would know?

The most frustrating part is that it is my first year here and I teach only lower division courses, so my presence there will not benefit any graduand. No student walking across the stage will care that I am there. I will be there for useless show.

AR.
I'd start having symptoms.  In my case, though, my chair wouldn't even question my absence. 

Now I'm really glad our place is being smart about graduation.  Some of the graduates are royally pissed about a virtual ceremony.  I'm pissed that we are graduating students who hadn't figured out in, oh, I don't know, AUGUST, that there was no way the ceremony would be in-person.   

Morden

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 148
Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1194 on: November 21, 2020, 04:04:39 PM »
Our place did a drive in ceremony with a small platform party (all appropriately distanced outside) and a large screen. Graduates still had gowns and took pictures by their cars. Families honked when their particular graduate's name was displayed.

Kron3007

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 394
Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1195 on: November 21, 2020, 04:21:00 PM »
So, if it is true that restaurants are not a major source of spread, this makes sense and it would be wrong to close them down.  We should be using data to strategically shut things down rather than blanket shutdowns like in the beginning, unless eradicating Covid is the goal but it looks like that ship has sailed

Some researchers and policymakers recently pointed to dining in a restaurant as a major potential source of COVID spread.  This is why many restaurants try to do outdoor dining when the weather cooperates.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6936a5.htm

"What is added by this report?

Findings from a case-control investigation of symptomatic outpatients from 11 U.S. health care facilities found that close contact with persons with known COVID-19 or going to locations that offer on-site eating and drinking options were associated with COVID-19 positivity. Adults with positive SARS-CoV-2 test results were approximately twice as likely to have reported dining at a restaurant than were those with negative SARS-CoV-2 test results.

What are the implications for public health practice?

Eating and drinking on-site at locations that offer such options might be important risk factors associated with SARS-CoV-2 infection. Efforts to reduce possible exposures where mask use and social distancing are difficult to maintain, such as when eating and drinking, should be considered to protect customers, employees, and communities."

I imagine that this will depend on the location and specific policies that are in place.  I think the poster I was replying to is in Canada (as am I), and they have said that based on contact tracing in my province, that restaurants are not a major contributor and that social gatherings are a much bigger culprit.  As such, it may make sense to restrict social gatherings while allowing restaurants to continue.  This is especially true given the economic factors.

I will also mention that the fact people who eat out more are getting Covid more does not mean that it was from eating out.  People who eat out more during a pandemic are probably also more likely to visit friends, go to gyms, and do all sorts of things.

fleabite

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1196 on: November 21, 2020, 06:33:55 PM »

Some researchers and policymakers recently pointed to dining in a restaurant as a major potential source of COVID spread.  This is why many restaurants try to do outdoor dining when the weather cooperates.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6936a5.htm

"What is added by this report?

Findings from a case-control investigation of symptomatic outpatients from 11 U.S. health care facilities found that close contact with persons with known COVID-19 or going to locations that offer on-site eating and drinking options were associated with COVID-19 positivity. Adults with positive SARS-CoV-2 test results were approximately twice as likely to have reported dining at a restaurant than were those with negative SARS-CoV-2 test results.

What are the implications for public health practice?

Eating and drinking on-site at locations that offer such options might be important risk factors associated with SARS-CoV-2 infection. Efforts to reduce possible exposures where mask use and social distancing are difficult to maintain, such as when eating and drinking, should be considered to protect customers, employees, and communities."

I will also mention that the fact people who eat out more are getting Covid more does not mean that it was from eating out.  People who eat out more during a pandemic are probably also more likely to visit friends, go to gyms, and do all sorts of things.

That is true. However the study in question did find that "[n]o significant differences were observed in the bivariate analysis between case-patients and control-participants in shopping; gatherings with ≤10 persons in a home; going to an office setting; going to a salon; gatherings with >10 persons in a home; going to a gym; using public transportation; going to a bar/coffee shop; or attending church/religious gathering."

Kron3007

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 394
Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1197 on: November 22, 2020, 04:54:57 AM »

Some researchers and policymakers recently pointed to dining in a restaurant as a major potential source of COVID spread.  This is why many restaurants try to do outdoor dining when the weather cooperates.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6936a5.htm

"What is added by this report?

Findings from a case-control investigation of symptomatic outpatients from 11 U.S. health care facilities found that close contact with persons with known COVID-19 or going to locations that offer on-site eating and drinking options were associated with COVID-19 positivity. Adults with positive SARS-CoV-2 test results were approximately twice as likely to have reported dining at a restaurant than were those with negative SARS-CoV-2 test results.

What are the implications for public health practice?

Eating and drinking on-site at locations that offer such options might be important risk factors associated with SARS-CoV-2 infection. Efforts to reduce possible exposures where mask use and social distancing are difficult to maintain, such as when eating and drinking, should be considered to protect customers, employees, and communities."

I will also mention that the fact people who eat out more are getting Covid more does not mean that it was from eating out.  People who eat out more during a pandemic are probably also more likely to visit friends, go to gyms, and do all sorts of things.

That is true. However the study in question did find that "[n]o significant differences were observed in the bivariate analysis between case-patients and control-participants in shopping; gatherings with ≤10 persons in a home; going to an office setting; going to a salon; gatherings with >10 persons in a home; going to a gym; using public transportation; going to a bar/coffee shop; or attending church/religious gathering."

The study also lists a number of limitations and specifically says it may not apply broadly across the US (and by extension to other countries).  One thing they highlight is that bars and coffee shops are lumped together.  I have no doubt that bars are a problem, alcohol does not lead to cautious adherence to social distancing, but that doesn't mean it apples to all types of dining.  Policies vary a lot by region, including the density of people allowed, etc.

My main point is that most regions are doing extensive contact tracing and as we determine the types of business/activities that are contributing to spread locally, this should be used to guide policy rather than blanket shutdowns (unless it is completely out of control).  As mentioned, where I am they have found that social events are a much bigger contributor than restaurants and have acted accordingly.  Provided they are actually basing this decision on the data, it seems reasonable.

It is quite possible that this is not the case in other regions, and they should act based on their regional data.

mamselle

  • Use your wit and intelligence to figure out how to be kinder
  • Distinguished Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
  • Wondering, Wandering Sr. Member
  • CHE Posts: 4,618
Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1198 on: November 22, 2020, 10:38:32 AM »
Not going, but if I were, about this time of the year is when I'd be planning my annual r esearch-family visit-adventure trip to Europe. Sigh--or as Merce used to say, 《le grand sigh》...

Just ran into a reference to the Caveau de la Huchette (jazz club on the Left Bank) that a friend and I once closed down at 2.30 and caught the last (3AM) bus back to our hostel near Pere-La Chaise...d'Artagnan/HI, if anyone's interested...and now I'm doing Google map walkabouts and remembering museum visits long past...sigh.

No BnF, no croque-m'sieurs at the little bistro near the Palais-Royale, no lobster bisque in Auxerre...sigh. And my poor 《new》accordion is sitting at my cousin's in Liege, with no-one to play it....will it ever forgive me?

I know I'll get to go back, just have to put on the big-girl pants and get through this, but, serious regrets here--and en generale, 《je ne regrette rien》...

Putting Aznavour on loop now...

;--》

M.
Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

Reprove not a scorner, lest they hate thee: rebuke the wise, and they will love thee.

Give instruction to the wise, and they will be yet wiser: teach the just, and they will increase in learning.

mamselle

  • Use your wit and intelligence to figure out how to be kinder
  • Distinguished Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3493
  • Wondering, Wandering Sr. Member
  • CHE Posts: 4,618
Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1199 on: November 22, 2020, 12:24:16 PM »
And sorry for the double, but I realized I was so pent-up over not going that I just did a "itineraire fantastique" to assuage my wanderlust (to mix metaphors as well as languages rather completely).

I'd be able to do it in six weeks if I really did it all, and I left a LOT out...but at least I've thought through what I'd miss and who I'd like to stay in touch with for the next month or two by substitution.

OK, back to work...

M.
Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

Reprove not a scorner, lest they hate thee: rebuke the wise, and they will love thee.

Give instruction to the wise, and they will be yet wiser: teach the just, and they will increase in learning.