Author Topic: Somebody Finally Says It  (Read 1580 times)

Descartes

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Re: Somebody Finally Says It
« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2020, 11:12:30 AM »
It's threads like this when I miss The Fiona....

M.

You do?

Why, so she could smugly come into the conversation, assert dominance by virtue of the opposite side's typo or misuse of phrase, and then make a pithy exit?

I don't wish her ill and I hope she's not dead or anything; I hope she's not here just because she doesn't want to be.

But I don't miss her.

Baldwinschild

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Re: Somebody Finally Says It
« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2020, 12:48:22 PM »
I don’t have anything to say about they are saying.

If you don't want to engage I can't make you.
I think shutting up until you have a thought worth sharing, until you’ve actually thought about something, can be a good thing.  Also, sometimes I just don’t have an opinion. 
“Silence were better.”  -- Charles Chesnutt

mamselle

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Re: Somebody Finally Says It
« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2020, 01:29:18 PM »
It's threads like this when I miss The Fiona....

M.

You do?

Why, so she could smugly come into the conversation, assert dominance by virtue of the opposite side's typo or misuse of phrase, and then make a pithy exit?

I don't wish her ill and I hope she's not dead or anything; I hope she's not here just because she doesn't want to be.

But I don't miss her.

I've wondered if she's still with us on this earth, especially after (finally) being able to get back onto the Old Forum and seeing a post of hers near the end of a thread that noted she was in her second century of observing life on earth, or something like that.

Her ability to make a pithy remark and step away was also known as "thread-killing," and sometimes it seems like putting a thread out of its misery might still be a good idea....

De gustibus non disputandum.

(But then, most of the disputandum on these threads is about gustibus, so maybe that's no help, either...)

M
Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

Reprove not a scorner, lest they hate thee: rebuke the wise, and they will love thee.

Give instruction to the wise, and they will be yet wiser: teach the just, and they will increase in learning.

Baldwinschild

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Re: Somebody Finally Says It
« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2020, 06:08:22 PM »
It's threads like this when I miss The Fiona....

M.

You do?

Why, so she could smugly come into the conversation, assert dominance by virtue of the opposite side's typo or misuse of phrase, and then make a pithy exit?

I don't wish her ill and I hope she's not dead or anything; I hope she's not here just because she doesn't want to be.

But I don't miss her.

I've wondered if she's still with us on this earth, especially after (finally) being able to get back onto the Old Forum and seeing a post of hers near the end of a thread that noted she was in her second century of observing life on earth, or something like that.

Her ability to make a pithy remark and step away was also known as "thread-killing," and sometimes it seems like putting a thread out of its misery might still be a good idea....

De gustibus non disputandum.

(But then, most of the disputandum on these threads is about gustibus, so maybe that's no help, either...)

M

You throw a mean bucket of ice-cold water yourself, you know. 
“Silence were better.”  -- Charles Chesnutt

theblackbox

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Re: Somebody Finally Says It
« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2020, 06:44:22 PM »
Quote
But if you ask them 'OK, now that you believe we're thinking what do you want us to do?' And they don't have an answer except more intense outrage.
There is some discussion I admit I do not have the energy to pursue in this forum, but I really did initially want to address this part of mahagony's opening point of this thread, and did so at the start of my post:
I will keep my response brief.

A good example of sincere, research backed reform to reduce police brutality, with a quick way to see how many of these policies are already enacted in your city and a way to contact your mayor to encourage them to enact them:
https://8cantwait.org/
I am admittedly saddened no one responded to this part. Goes to show I should've stuck with my intention to be brief and only comment this first paragraph :) I do hope in the midst of the sparring, we can look for reform opportunities that are research based.

Baldwinschild

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Re: Somebody Finally Says It
« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2020, 08:30:33 PM »
Quote
But if you ask them 'OK, now that you believe we're thinking what do you want us to do?' And they don't have an answer except more intense outrage.
There is some discussion I admit I do not have the energy to pursue in this forum, but I really did initially want to address this part of mahagony's opening point of this thread, and did so at the start of my post:
I will keep my response brief.

A good example of sincere, research backed reform to reduce police brutality, with a quick way to see how many of these policies are already enacted in your city and a way to contact your mayor to encourage them to enact them:
https://8cantwait.org/
I am admittedly saddened no one responded to this part. Goes to show I should've stuck with my intention to be brief and only comment this first paragraph :) I do hope in the midst of the sparring, we can look for reform opportunities that are research based.
What I find frustrating about threads like this one:

 I have many thoughts about the way my white colleagues are handling the protests and about the way they handle race-related issues in general.  I sit here and watch the flurry of email activity.  I just said “No, but thank you” today to the sixth request from some group putting together yet another diversity workshop.  I don’t know how to handle these issues, I don’t know what to say to workshop attendees about race or the protests.  I know what I feel, but I don’t know how much of what I feel should be imposed on my white colleagues.  I do not know how to navigate this for others.  I want to respect their rights to think freely and independently, even if I disagree with their viewpoints. 

So, here, on this board, where I come to talk to fellow academics (I read more than I talk), I am not saying anything.  I’m not accusing anyone of being racist or telling anyone to read a book.  I’m not starting a thread about racism in academia.  But someone else opened the discussion, quite forcefully and with a complete lack of grace.  And I am engaging because this space belongs to me as well, and I found those statements problematic.  And when you write them in this space, I have either to ignore them or speak back.  This is why I called it “gaslighting.”   This is why I called them “provocative.”  In this space, no one was holding the OP’s feet to the fire, no one was calling the OP out for not being tolerant.  We were talking about other things. 

I am saying I don’t know what the answer is for someone else.  That is why I haven’t started a thread in which I tell you what I think you should or should not be doing.  I am making a decision to not tell white people what I think they should be doing.  But the OP made a decision to initiate a discussion about this issue in a space we share.  The OP is forcing the moment to a crisis when he could have chosen to initiate a thoughtful and measured discussion.  The OP brought this to this board.  And I wanted to ignore it, but it is racial hate-speech.  That is what it is.  It is vile.  And if you, OP, have any questions about what makes it vile, remove George Floyd from the picture and insert someone you love.  Then replay those sentences you wrote about “one unnecessary killing.”  And ask yourself if that needed to be said.  Ask yourself if anything in this thread makes you feel better about yourself or the world. 

There was silence, and the OP spoke into it.  No black person in this space made you do that.  And yet here we are.  You could have accepted the silence, the tolerance, the lack of judgment, that was being offered to you on this board. 





“Silence were better.”  -- Charles Chesnutt

theblackbox

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Re: Somebody Finally Says It
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2020, 11:49:39 PM »
Baldwinschild, just for clarity, I hope you know I was not trying to insinuate that your responses should've focused on 8 can't wait or avoided the conflict within the thread. I'm biracial and much of what you've said resonates with my experiences.

I was referring to OP and the others who seem to agree with the opening stances and suggest there's a lot of misguided/misdirected emotion and no thoughtful direction for improving the current situation. I reject that fundamental premise and offered a clear example of productive, research-based change, and it was ignored. Put me down as disappointed but not surprised that it was a higher priority to those folks to insist white supremacy doesn't really exist and attempting to address it is witch-hunting and slurring all white people.

For the record, I don't go around accusing people of being white supremacists, and I have known people who absolutely believe whites historically conquered and enslaved others because they are superior. I've met them in academia as well as my personal life. I'm not interested in though policing or witchhunting; I hope the faculty at my institution will come together in an interest of increased justice to properly reprimand those few faculty espousing "whites deserve power more than the other races" beliefs and not fragment over suspicion of malice without significant evidemce of such. And with that, I'll exit stage right.

marshwiggle

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Re: Somebody Finally Says It
« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2020, 04:39:22 AM »
Quote
But if you ask them 'OK, now that you believe we're thinking what do you want us to do?' And they don't have an answer except more intense outrage.
There is some discussion I admit I do not have the energy to pursue in this forum, but I really did initially want to address this part of mahagony's opening point of this thread, and did so at the start of my post:
I will keep my response brief.

A good example of sincere, research backed reform to reduce police brutality, with a quick way to see how many of these policies are already enacted in your city and a way to contact your mayor to encourage them to enact them:
https://8cantwait.org/
I am admittedly saddened no one responded to this part. Goes to show I should've stuck with my intention to be brief and only comment this first paragraph :) I do hope in the midst of the sparring, we can look for reform opportunities that are research based.

I looked at the 8cantwait link. Since I'm in Canada, it isn't directly relevant, but obviously the principles apply broadly.

Part of the problem that I see is the information that is left out; one specific area of information that is omitted in the "research basis" is how the crime rate, including shootings of police, were affected by these policies. Clearly, if police violence is a cause of community violence, then restricting use of police force should result in a decrease in crime. On the other hand, if restrictions on police result in an increase in crime, so that a decrease in violence by police is accompanied by an increase in violence by criminals, then it's not a clear win for the community.

I wish the data were more comprehensive in this way becuase then more useful conclusions could be drawn.
It takes so little to be above average.

ergative

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Re: Somebody Finally Says It
« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2020, 06:23:31 AM »
Quote
But if you ask them 'OK, now that you believe we're thinking what do you want us to do?' And they don't have an answer except more intense outrage.
There is some discussion I admit I do not have the energy to pursue in this forum, but I really did initially want to address this part of mahagony's opening point of this thread, and did so at the start of my post:
I will keep my response brief.

A good example of sincere, research backed reform to reduce police brutality, with a quick way to see how many of these policies are already enacted in your city and a way to contact your mayor to encourage them to enact them:
https://8cantwait.org/
I am admittedly saddened no one responded to this part. Goes to show I should've stuck with my intention to be brief and only comment this first paragraph :) I do hope in the midst of the sparring, we can look for reform opportunities that are research based.

I looked at the 8cantwait link. Since I'm in Canada, it isn't directly relevant, but obviously the principles apply broadly.

Part of the problem that I see is the information that is left out; one specific area of information that is omitted in the "research basis" is how the crime rate, including shootings of police, were affected by these policies. Clearly, if police violence is a cause of community violence, then restricting use of police force should result in a decrease in crime. On the other hand, if restrictions on police result in an increase in crime, so that a decrease in violence by police is accompanied by an increase in violence by criminals, then it's not a clear win for the community.

I wish the data were more comprehensive in this way becuase then more useful conclusions could be drawn.

Camden reformed its police and violent crime went down. And the Police Use of Force Project found that police departments with more restrictive use-of-force policies kill fewer people, without any significant change crime not-caused by police.

A decrease in violence by the police accompanied by no change in violence by criminals is also a clear win for the community.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 06:29:11 AM by ergative »

marshwiggle

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Re: Somebody Finally Says It
« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2020, 06:55:13 AM »

Camden reformed its police and violent crime went down.

Thanks for that link. It was a good article because it was long enough to include a lot of nuance; some things have improved, some haven't, and normal statistical fluctuations mean that it will take a while for trends to be clearly established.

 
Quote
And the Police Use of Force Project found that police departments with more restrictive use-of-force policies kill fewer people, without any significant change crime not-caused by police.

A decrease in violence by the police accompanied by no change in violence by criminals is also a clear win for the community.

Of course. And as the former article indicates, over time the data should make the overall effects more obvious.
It takes so little to be above average.

apl68

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Re: Somebody Finally Says It
« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2020, 07:41:38 AM »

 I have many thoughts about the way my white colleagues are handling the protests and about the way they handle race-related issues in general.  I sit here and watch the flurry of email activity.  I just said “No, but thank you” today to the sixth request from some group putting together yet another diversity workshop. 

There must be a LOT of pressure on minority faculty right now to help their departments put together diversity workshops and statements and such.  I imagine there's a good deal of cynicism among some regarding the motives of these efforts--accusations of empty "virtue signalling" and all that.  The impression I get is that most of it's a well-meant effort by majority white departments to make some kind of worthwhile response to the broader situation, using the standard academic methods of study, education, and writing stuff out. 

What's your impression of these efforts to create diversity workshops and such (Besides wishing you weren't being asked to take part in so many)?  What would you like to see your white colleagues doing right now?

Baldwinschild

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Re: Somebody Finally Says It
« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2020, 02:45:41 PM »
Baldwinschild, just for clarity, I hope you know I was not trying to insinuate that your responses should've focused on 8 can't wait or avoided the conflict within the thread. I'm biracial and much of what you've said resonates with my experiences.

I was referring to OP and the others who seem to agree with the opening stances and suggest there's a lot of misguided/misdirected emotion and no thoughtful direction for improving the current situation. I reject that fundamental premise and offered a clear example of productive, research-based change, and it was ignored. Put me down as disappointed but not surprised that it was a higher priority to those folks to insist white supremacy doesn't really exist and attempting to address it is witch-hunting and slurring all white people.

For the record, I don't go around accusing people of being white supremacists, and I have known people who absolutely believe whites historically conquered and enslaved others because they are superior. I've met them in academia as well as my personal life. I'm not interested in though policing or witchhunting; I hope the faculty at my institution will come together in an interest of increased justice to properly reprimand those few faculty espousing "whites deserve power more than the other races" beliefs and not fragment over suspicion of malice without significant evidemce of such. And with that, I'll exit stage right.

No, not at all.  I did actually respond to your post the day you posted it, so I assumed you would know I wasn't directing this to you.  I was adding to you what you said.  I should have been clear about that.  My apologies.
“Silence were better.”  -- Charles Chesnutt

mahagonny

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Re: Somebody Finally Says It
« Reply #72 on: July 01, 2020, 05:23:50 AM »
Back for what hopefully will be my last entry on this thread. I need to start figuring out how I'm going to be employed in the fall. I don't have the time/energy to continue working on these issues here, but I did get some opportunity to see the lay of the land and hear a few useful things. So, forward, either with a more informed approach, or, just as likely, not engaging at all and leaving the work to others. It's been interesting! Thanks for participating.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 05:35:40 AM by mahagonny »