Author Topic: K-12 fall plans  (Read 2201 times)

Caracal

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Re: K-12 fall plans
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2020, 01:10:40 PM »
Another thing I forgot to mention is that, even were we to play devil's advocate and say, falsely, that prepubescent kids don't get serious covid cases, well, they sure enough can spread it to those who can.  Opening schools full-bore this semester more or less guarantees superspreader events from coast to coast.

Well, they can get serious cases, but it is legitimately quite rare. And in terms of the role of kids in transmission, there are still lots of unanswered questions. One case study of a camp hardly settles the question when other studies have shown different things. Of course that doesn't mean opening schools is a good idea. As Poly said upthread, in some reasonable world you would have programs set up for supervised learning. These could employ people at low risk for serious illness and have small groups of kids. Of course that would take money and there seems to be no interest in providing it so the burden of this is going to fall on parents.

mamselle

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Re: K-12 fall plans
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2020, 04:41:34 PM »
NPR is reporting this:

   https://www.wbur.org/radioboston/2020/08/05/august-05-2020-rb

I don't think that's been discussed up to now.

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polly_mer

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Re: K-12 fall plans
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2020, 05:51:03 PM »
Another thing I forgot to mention is that, even were we to play devil's advocate and say, falsely, that prepubescent kids don't get serious covid cases, well, they sure enough can spread it to those who can.  Opening schools full-bore this semester more or less guarantees superspreader events from coast to coast.

Well, they can get serious cases, but it is legitimately quite rare.

Not quite.  This is an area where the evolving science discussion gets lost in translation to the media summaries.  Little kids weren't exposed early on because 'everywhere' clamped down quickly and only symptomatic people were being tested.

Kids weren't being studied.  Now that kids are being studied, they can get it and they can spread it.  There is some ongoing discussion about maybe kids don't spread at the same rate based on some preliminary studies, but even that may be more a function that kids weren't exposed at the same rates as older people, not any physiological differences.

It's not nearly rare enough for kids to get cases based on just this first week of school openings and what's already being reported.
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kaysixteen

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Re: K-12 fall plans
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2020, 09:08:21 PM »
Polly's plan would be a good idea, but it would also cost big dollars.   Who's gonna pay?   Most of these school districts cannot afford soap and sanitizer... who's gonna pony up the bucks for schemes like polly's to be put into place, and which big corporations are going to do so (hint, it ain't Walmart and other places getting rich now on the backs of their 'essential' workers-- not one dime in extra taxes on firms like this, or on rich folks, has been raised throughout this pandemic, for instance).

Caracal

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Re: K-12 fall plans
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2020, 04:54:04 AM »
Another thing I forgot to mention is that, even were we to play devil's advocate and say, falsely, that prepubescent kids don't get serious covid cases, well, they sure enough can spread it to those who can.  Opening schools full-bore this semester more or less guarantees superspreader events from coast to coast.

Well, they can get serious cases, but it is legitimately quite rare.

Not quite.  This is an area where the evolving science discussion gets lost in translation to the media summaries.  Little kids weren't exposed early on because 'everywhere' clamped down quickly and only symptomatic people were being tested.

Kids weren't being studied.  Now that kids are being studied, they can get it and they can spread it.  There is some ongoing discussion about maybe kids don't spread at the same rate based on some preliminary studies, but even that may be more a function that kids weren't exposed at the same rates as older people, not any physiological differences.

It's not nearly rare enough for kids to get cases based on just this first week of school openings and what's already being reported.

Or, you know, that they can get it, COVID is quite widespread, so naturally there are quite a few cases, and examining retrospective studies and anecdotal data isn't a particularly reliable way to get good information on these questions. The early studies weren't perfect, but neither are these.

Of course for the question of reopening the vast majority of schools, it doesn't really matter right now. You had schools with students having symptoms and testing positive on the first day, causing whole classes to have to quarantine. Obviously, they didn't catch it at school, but it isn't going to work with the levels of disease we have now.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 05:00:34 AM by Caracal »

Caracal

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Re: K-12 fall plans
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2020, 04:55:40 AM »
Polly's plan would be a good idea, but it would also cost big dollars.   Who's gonna pay?   Most of these school districts cannot afford soap and sanitizer... who's gonna pony up the bucks for schemes like polly's to be put into place, and which big corporations are going to do so (hint, it ain't Walmart and other places getting rich now on the backs of their 'essential' workers-- not one dime in extra taxes on firms like this, or on rich folks, has been raised throughout this pandemic, for instance).

Obviously we wouldn't expect a federal government with deep reserves and the ability to borrow money to pay for this kind of thing. That would be like the federal government making sure states can get adequate tests or devising a national virus strategy.

AmLitHist

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Re: K-12 fall plans
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2020, 07:23:13 AM »
Some young kids were developing a Kawasaki-like illness from COVID.  Is that still the case?  That kind of thing is nothing to mess with; also, some older patients are now reported to be having kidney, liver, heart, and brain damage resulting from the virus.

Caracal

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Re: K-12 fall plans
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2020, 07:44:38 AM »
Some young kids were developing a Kawasaki-like illness from COVID.  Is that still the case?  That kind of thing is nothing to mess with; also, some older patients are now reported to be having kidney, liver, heart, and brain damage resulting from the virus.

Yes, that syndrome is definitely real, but perspective is called for. It doesn't really change the reality that severe cases among children are very rare. New York identified a little under 200 of these cases with only a couple of deaths. That was in the state that has almost certainly had the highest prevalence of COVID in the population.

Caracal

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Re: K-12 fall plans
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2020, 10:13:09 AM »
Some useful perspective on kids and covid for those interested.  link=topic=1565.msg39852#msg39852

polly_mer

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Re: K-12 fall plans
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2020, 10:50:58 AM »
Polly's plan would be a good idea, but it would also cost big dollars.   Who's gonna pay?   Most of these school districts cannot afford soap and sanitizer... who's gonna pony up the bucks for schemes like polly's to be put into place, and which big corporations are going to do so (hint, it ain't Walmart and other places getting rich now on the backs of their 'essential' workers-- not one dime in extra taxes on firms like this, or on rich folks, has been raised throughout this pandemic, for instance).

Employers who need workers with childcare issues could step up for at least the organization.

Individual workers could band together and work it out as a babysitting collective.

Or we can do like so many people do and just wish harder that some government will solve all our problems because life is hard and it's never an individual's responsibility to sort out their own problems.  People who are great at contingency plans seldom work those non-medical, disposable front line jobs for long.
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Caracal

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Re: K-12 fall plans
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2020, 12:06:52 PM »

Or we can do like so many people do and just wish harder that some government will solve all our problems because life is hard and it's never an individual's responsibility to sort out their own problems.  People who are great at contingency plans seldom work those non-medical, disposable front line jobs for long.

What a revolting thing to say.

dismalist

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Re: K-12 fall plans
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2020, 02:36:34 PM »
Warren Buffett has noted that he thinks, half seriously, that  we should outlaw private k12 education in this country, in order to force American elites to utilize the public schools, so as to make such elites ensure that these schools are adequately funded ... .

What would Warren think if we outlawed private ownership of stock in corporations, had the government own those shares and run the companies, thus forcing American elites to utilize public firms so as to make sure such firms have adequate funding?
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kaysixteen

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Re: K-12 fall plans
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2020, 07:17:15 PM »
That's an incoherent false analogy, dismalist.  It just is.   You see, don't you, Buffett's point regarding the horrifying inequities in American public k12 ed funding, something which is going to only get terrifyingly worse as we go through the pandemic, and the process of trying to get schools back open as soon as is reasonable, but to do so safely, and in a way that ensures ed standards are maintained.

And now we come to Polly's asinine remark, something straight out of the Gospel according to Ayn Rand.   What should I say about her thesis here?   Nothing I could say would change her mind.  One can just hope she won't be able to change anyone else's mind... or that, when she next has to slum herself by shopping in an establishment run by such scummy low-life trash who have failed to create a 'contingency' plan to get them out of their well-deserved situation, she won't be exposed to covid herself (especially if she brings her kid with  her), a fate which would sadly be greatly augmented when/ if these aforementioned scum have had to start sending their own parasitical mouths-to-feed brats to those underfunded, soapless 'schools', all the better to transmit their viral inheritance to their betters, like her.

polly_mer

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Re: K-12 fall plans
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2020, 05:34:55 AM »
Oh, Kay.

The worry I have is the privileged people don't stay home and contribute to the spread making more people sick, which means more die.

If it comes to the point that I am of more value to society by taking my turn stocking shelves or overseeing the self-checkout, then I have full confidence that I can learn to do so.

However, people who can do the professional jobs I've held will not be spending much time in the jobs that a middleschooler of adequate physical size and ability can learn to do.  They will move up to management or they will get another job elsewhere to move up a different career ladder.

Yes, that means something for you personally.  However, I'm not wrong about how few people who can do other jobs spend years in the jobs that are relatively low-paying and can be mastered in weeks so those jobs don't have to pay more.  Lots of people start there or spend time there on the way to elsewhere, but I stand by the assertion that people who can do better do do better on the scale of years.

I say that as someone who started in below modest circumstances and know first hand the difference between working hard and working effectively.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 05:38:55 AM by polly_mer »
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dismalist

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Re: K-12 fall plans
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2020, 01:40:08 PM »
Warren Buffett has noted that he thinks, half seriously, that  we should outlaw private k12 education in this country, in order to force American elites to utilize the public schools, so as to make such elites ensure that these schools are adequately funded ... .

What would Warren think if we outlawed private ownership of stock in corporations, had the government own those shares and run the companies, thus forcing American elites to utilize public firms so as to make sure such firms have adequate funding?

That's an incoherent false analogy, dismalist.  It just is.   You see, don't you, Buffett's point regarding the horrifying inequities in American public k12 ed funding, something which is going to only get terrifyingly worse as we go through the pandemic, and the process of trying to get schools back open as soon as is reasonable, but to do so safely, and in a way that ensures ed standards are maintained.


By pure chance I found a statement by Ed Glaeser that the other Warren, Elizabeth, [propounds an] Accountable Capitalism Act [that] expects all large firms to obtain a “new federal charter” obligating them to pay heed to the interests of “corporate stakeholders”—from employees to surrounding communities.

Well, we can turn our market economy into something akin to the school system! :-)
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