Author Topic: Why Parents Drink  (Read 3623 times)

marshwiggle

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Re: Why Parents Drink
« Reply #90 on: October 09, 2019, 06:19:46 AM »
But it wasn't your work, and allowing this sort of thing penalizes kids whose parents can't or won't do their projects for or with them, many of whom are low income, single parents, etc.  When, further, does parental participation cease to be quality time and start to become cheating.

When my son was in elementary school, they had a project to build a bridge. I remember the hours struggling to help him with that. One kid wound up with an amazingly professional bridge. Turns out his dad is a machinist. (Well, duh!)

I was a science fair judge for years.  One state-level fair in particular sticks in my memory with a student who did a true student project with minimal adult help right next to the student who had written up his internship project from the national lab that was publishable in Phys. Rev. Lett.  When I questioned the Phys. Rev. Lett. student, who happened to have done a project very closely related to my dissertation work, that student knew his stuff.  I would have been proud to have a graduate student do and present that work.  We sent that student on to the international science fair where he did quite well.

I've seen stories like that. I can't remember a single one where it didn't turn out that the kid had one or two parents who were university profs, and the kid did the work in their lab. The kid may be smart, but that's grossly unfair to the other students.


Even as a parent who has the expertise to mentor a science project, I am quite angry that the school who has the children for 32 hours per week with about 8 weeks to do the science fair deems science fair important enough to be mandatory, but not important enough to devote time and resources to ensuring that every child has adequate mentoring and time to do a good enough project and have a positive experience, even if that's the joy of the arts and crafts aspect of the poster.  My rural, public school managed to do that when I was a child; what's the deal with this school district that has mandatory music, art, and theatre during school hours, but makes science be done outside of school with random support at home because "there's not enough time in the curriculum for science fair"?

My reason for having it done at school is so all kids have access to the same resources and expertise. Otherwise it's just an invitation to game the system.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 06:21:55 AM by marshwiggle »
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ciao_yall

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Re: Why Parents Drink
« Reply #91 on: October 09, 2019, 06:32:54 AM »
But it wasn't your work, and allowing this sort of thing penalizes kids whose parents can't or won't do their projects for or with them, many of whom are low income, single parents, etc.  When, further, does parental participation cease to be quality time and start to become cheating.

When my son was in elementary school, they had a project to build a bridge. I remember the hours struggling to help him with that. One kid wound up with an amazingly professional bridge. Turns out his dad is a machinist. (Well, duh!)

I was a science fair judge for years.  One state-level fair in particular sticks in my memory with a student who did a true student project with minimal adult help right next to the student who had written up his internship project from the national lab that was publishable in Phys. Rev. Lett.  When I questioned the Phys. Rev. Lett. student, who happened to have done a project very closely related to my dissertation work, that student knew his stuff.  I would have been proud to have a graduate student do and present that work.  We sent that student on to the international science fair where he did quite well.

I've seen stories like that. I can't remember a single one where it didn't turn out that the kid had one or two parents who were university profs, and the kid did the work in their lab. The kid may be smart, but that's grossly unfair to the other students.


Even as a parent who has the expertise to mentor a science project, I am quite angry that the school who has the children for 32 hours per week with about 8 weeks to do the science fair deems science fair important enough to be mandatory, but not important enough to devote time and resources to ensuring that every child has adequate mentoring and time to do a good enough project and have a positive experience, even if that's the joy of the arts and crafts aspect of the poster.  My rural, public school managed to do that when I was a child; what's the deal with this school district that has mandatory music, art, and theatre during school hours, but makes science be done outside of school with random support at home because "there's not enough time in the curriculum for science fair"?

My reason for having it done at school is so all kids have access to the same resources and expertise. Otherwise it's just an invitation to game the system.

Maybe it's unfair to other students on one level.

On the other hand, how can the other students get a chance to see what is possible if everything is limited to what can be done with construction paper and glue sticks?

mamselle

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Re: Why Parents Drink
« Reply #92 on: October 09, 2019, 06:38:19 AM »
I'm all for leveling the playing field, in the arts as well as the sciences.

There has always been an apprenticeship component to the "doing" things, though.

Either you learn from an apprentice master, or a parent or other relative (who might in fact be the apprentice master) about the practical hands-on parts of things.

So I'm not sure we want to circumvent that entirely.

If someone comes up with a better defibrillator because their compressed learning curve as a child made it possible to start work on such a thing early on, everyone (or many people) may benefit.

So it's a nuanced situation, I think...

M.

ETA: yes, going along with Ciao's observation.
Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

Reprove not a scorner, lest they hate thee: rebuke the wise, and they will love thee.

Give instruction to the wise, and they will be yet wiser: teach the just, and they will increase in learning.

marshwiggle

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Re: Why Parents Drink
« Reply #93 on: October 09, 2019, 07:06:43 AM »
My reason for having it done at school is so all kids have access to the same resources and expertise. Otherwise it's just an invitation to game the system.

Maybe it's unfair to other students on one level.

On the other hand, how can the other students get a chance to see what is possible if everything is limited to what can be done with construction paper and glue sticks?

I'm all for leveling the playing field, in the arts as well as the sciences.

There has always been an apprenticeship component to the "doing" things, though.

Either you learn from an apprentice master, or a parent or other relative (who might in fact be the apprentice master) about the practical hands-on parts of things.

So I'm not sure we want to circumvent that entirely.



So fine; bring the master into the classroom and have all of the class participate as apprentices, rather than pitting those who have access against those who don't.
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Volhiker78

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Re: Why Parents Drink
« Reply #94 on: October 09, 2019, 08:30:30 AM »
Quote
So fine; bring the master into the classroom and have all of the class participate as apprentices, rather than pitting those who have access against those who don't.


Agree with this.  Recently,  i was at a high school class reunion (year was a VERY long time ago) and we were laughing about some winning science fair projects from our time.  We grew up in Oak Ridge Tennessee and some classmates had parents who worked at the National Lab.  Some of them had access to great facilities.  From my former classmates who have stayed in the area,   the high school now asks for mentor volunteers from the National Lab to mento any students who want to try and do a project.  Parents can still assist their own students but at least the high school is trying to provide opportunities for their students who don't have that advantage.  I don't know whether this program has been successful or not. 
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 08:56:54 AM by fast_and_bulbous »

Economizer

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Re: Why Parents Drink
« Reply #95 on: October 09, 2019, 11:15:49 AM »

Parents drink because it is available, in most states, at every turn.  In my home state alcohol is served at family restaurants, on Sundays, after hours, before churches let out, in addition to being easily available for at home use via a cow patty load of specialty retailers, mega beverage sales outlets, and membership warehouses. Add to these the "Sports Bars", night clubs, lounges etc., at all of which discussion is encouraged and the subject of family and children will come up. So, drink accompanying the proximity children, the thoughts of family and children, and in general discussions is encouraged.  At homes, where in most cases, drinking takes a bit more effort and calls for ready resources and, perhaps, there would be direct, intelligent, and moderated attempts to make workable attempts at solving or reducing the need or course of turning to "drinkin'".  So, go to work on our children's problems, family or student, and quit your stewin' and bellyachin' and take brighter courses of action.

ab_grp

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Re: Why Parents Drink
« Reply #96 on: October 09, 2019, 11:24:06 AM »
The science fair discussion has been pretty robust and very interesting.  I have a couple thoughts, although I have actually never participated in one, nor have my kids (as a requirement... they/I have as part of outside activities).  I really like the idea of bringing knowledgeable volunteers into the classroom.  I wonder if, instead of individual projects, students could propose projects, and the class could vote and reduce the list to just a few.  The teacher could seek mentors for those specific projects, and students could work in groups (or individually, depending on size and scope of project).  Science is often collaborative, but this would give an opportunity for students to share their project ideas and then work together on learning and achieving.  I think a workshop type of feel, rather than a competitive one, could be useful at the earlier grades.  Maybe after instituting something like this for a few years, there could be competitive science fairs that are optional.  I hope I didn't duplicate too much already said.  If so, apologies! I really do think the discussion has been illuminating.  Most of my thinking comes from those outside activities which were much more team-oriented.

mamselle

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Re: Why Parents Drink
« Reply #97 on: October 09, 2019, 12:50:51 PM »
My reason for having it done at school is so all kids have access to the same resources and expertise. Otherwise it's just an invitation to game the system.

Maybe it's unfair to other students on one level.

On the other hand, how can the other students get a chance to see what is possible if everything is limited to what can be done with construction paper and glue sticks?

I'm all for leveling the playing field, in the arts as well as the sciences.

There has always been an apprenticeship component to the "doing" things, though.

Either you learn from an apprentice master, or a parent or other relative (who might in fact be the apprentice master) about the practical hands-on parts of things.

So I'm not sure we want to circumvent that entirely.



So fine; bring the master into the classroom and have all of the class participate as apprentices, rather than pitting those who have access against those who don't.

Ok, good idea.

Agree.

M.
Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

Reprove not a scorner, lest they hate thee: rebuke the wise, and they will love thee.

Give instruction to the wise, and they will be yet wiser: teach the just, and they will increase in learning.

fleabite

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Re: Why Parents Drink
« Reply #98 on: October 09, 2019, 01:45:33 PM »
In my school system, fourth, fifth, and sixth graders could participate in science fairs. (If there were any high school fairs, I didn't know about them.) I had fun with my projects all three years and did them on my own. One year I needed piece of wood cut, and my father did that, because he didn't want me to use the saw. But other than that my parents weren't involved.

I don't understand the point of having children do a canned project from a book or worksheets for a science fair. It could be a fun activity, but doesn't involve generating any original ideas.

ciao_yall

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Re: Why Parents Drink
« Reply #99 on: October 09, 2019, 02:55:58 PM »

Parents drink because it is available, in most states, at every turn.  In my home state alcohol is served at family restaurants, on Sundays, after hours, before churches let out, in addition to being easily available for at home use via a cow patty load of specialty retailers, mega beverage sales outlets, and membership warehouses. Add to these the "Sports Bars", night clubs, lounges etc., at all of which discussion is encouraged and the subject of family and children will come up. So, drink accompanying the proximity children, the thoughts of family and children, and in general discussions is encouraged.  At homes, where in most cases, drinking takes a bit more effort and calls for ready resources and, perhaps, there would be direct, intelligent, and moderated attempts to make workable attempts at solving or reducing the need or course of turning to "drinkin'".  So, go to work on our children's problems, family or student, and quit your stewin' and bellyachin' and take brighter courses of action.

And worse... drinking could lead to dancing.

mamselle

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Re: Why Parents Drink
« Reply #100 on: October 09, 2019, 08:13:07 PM »
Oh, the hora!

M.
Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

Reprove not a scorner, lest they hate thee: rebuke the wise, and they will love thee.

Give instruction to the wise, and they will be yet wiser: teach the just, and they will increase in learning.