I'm wondering if any of the hastily-made, crisis perception-driven changes that are occurring now in higher ed will cause people to realize, "Hey, we can do things very differently and get the same or better outcomes." Or if this will be a missed opportunity.
I'm not sure we're going to get the same or better outcomes. Online courses typically have a much higher drop-out rate, because the engagement is so impersonal, no matter what is tried to mitigate it. And there are so many things that can't be taught successfully online: lab courses, engineering where you have to do hands-on teamwork, theatre arts, dance, orchestra, clinical practice, and many other things. Some things you could teach wholly online to motivated students. That has always been true, just as motivated, capable students can learn a whole field of education from books. But why do we have universities instead of letting everyone just read books? A lot of it is the structured engagement and interaction that comes from learning in face-to-face groups.
I have no doubt that there are already bean-counting administrators who are yearning to cut everything down to the minimum and get it all online. We've already heard of the automated online courses at for-profit universities, where the instructors just deliver pre-prepared uniform "content" to students. I guess if that's what you call education, then we can restructure higher ed that way, sure.
Imagine how much cheaper it would be if all classes were taught online. This disaster will test how well it can be done.
Funny, as I type this I am watching the '60s sci-fi UK dystopian show The Prisoner, the episode "The General." It has a character simply known as "The Professor" who teaches "a three year course in three minutes" over the television. "Speed learning" has made the Professor obsolete. Everyone must enroll.
Distance Ed is "mass education" in the show and equates to mind control.
Interesting how people jump to online instruction as the only potential change to higher ed.
Is it really necessary to convene all classes in a physical space on campus twice or thrice a week in 50- or 75-minute increments between 8:00 am and 5:00 pm M-F?
Edited to add: in 15-week increments (for many)?
Quote from: Hegemony on March 11, 2020, 08:10:14 AM
I'm not sure we're going to get the same or better outcomes. Online courses typically have a much higher drop-out rate, because the engagement is so impersonal, no matter what is tried to mitigate it. And there are so many things that can't be taught successfully online: lab courses, engineering where you have to do hands-on teamwork, theatre arts, dance, orchestra, clinical practice, and many other things. Some things you could teach wholly online to motivated students. That has always been true, just as motivated, capable students can learn a whole field of education from books. But why do we have universities instead of letting everyone just read books? A lot of it is the structured engagement and interaction that comes from learning in face-to-face groups.
I have no doubt that there are already bean-counting administrators who are yearning to cut everything down to the minimum and get it all online. We've already heard of the automated online courses at for-profit universities, where the instructors just deliver pre-prepared uniform "content" to students. I guess if that's what you call education, then we can restructure higher ed that way, sure.
Our students, especially international ones, are asking for refunds. They didn't go through all the hassle and expense of moving to the United States to stay in their rented rooms and take classes from their computers.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 11, 2020, 08:21:22 AM
Imagine how much cheaper it would be if all classes were taught online.
How can it get cheaper than an instructor showing up in the classroom, delivering a lecture, and interacting with the students in person?
Quote from: spork on March 11, 2020, 08:25:23 AM
Interesting how people jump to online instruction as the only potential change to higher ed.
Is it really necessary to convene all classes in a physical space on campus twice or thrice a week in 50- or 75-minute increments between 8:00 am and 5:00 pm M-F?
That's never been necessary, and alternatives do exist, but the students want to meet in 50 and 75 minute increments between 8 and 5 M-F. Traditional college students don't want to take a class at 8 pm or on Sunday.
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on March 11, 2020, 08:39:09 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 11, 2020, 08:21:22 AM
Imagine how much cheaper it would be if all classes were taught online.
How can it get cheaper than an instructor showing up in the classroom, delivering a lecture, and interacting with the students in person?
Quote from: spork on March 11, 2020, 08:25:23 AM
Interesting how people jump to online instruction as the only potential change to higher ed.
Is it really necessary to convene all classes in a physical space on campus twice or thrice a week in 50- or 75-minute increments between 8:00 am and 5:00 pm M-F?
That's never been necessary, and alternatives do exist, but the students want to meet in 50 and 75 minute increments between 8 and 5 M-F. Traditional college students don't want to take a class at 8 pm or on Sunday.
"Traditional" is no longer the majority.
CVS now offers immunizations. I can now learn how to fix my washing machine with YouTube.
Per Kevin Kelly: "Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." — Clay Shirky
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on March 11, 2020, 08:39:09 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 11, 2020, 08:21:22 AM
Imagine how much cheaper it would be if all classes were taught online.
How can it get cheaper than an instructor showing up in the classroom, delivering a lecture, and interacting with the students in person?
Well, how much would we save on facilities and classroom technology if every prof were teaching from a laptop? Not to mention the small incidentals such as copying costs and janitorial work?
I'm wondering to what extent the types of courses that will owing to their nature will be the least successful online will come to be viewed as an inconvenient expense and targeted for special investigation as to their necessity.
I'm wondering to what extent the types of courses that will owing to their nature will be the least successful online will come to be viewed as an inconvenient expense and targeted for special investigation as to their necessity.
Quote from: spork on March 11, 2020, 08:45:35 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on March 11, 2020, 08:39:09 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 11, 2020, 08:21:22 AM
Imagine how much cheaper it would be if all classes were taught online.
How can it get cheaper than an instructor showing up in the classroom, delivering a lecture, and interacting with the students in person?
Quote from: spork on March 11, 2020, 08:25:23 AM
Interesting how people jump to online instruction as the only potential change to higher ed.
Is it really necessary to convene all classes in a physical space on campus twice or thrice a week in 50- or 75-minute increments between 8:00 am and 5:00 pm M-F?
That's never been necessary, and alternatives do exist, but the students want to meet in 50 and 75 minute increments between 8 and 5 M-F. Traditional college students don't want to take a class at 8 pm or on Sunday.
"Traditional" is no longer the majority.
Sure is at my university. Not even close. But as I wrote, evening and weekend classes have been offered for decades, and to the extent that there's demand, they're offered. It's as if you've missed the last 30 or so years of our industry.
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 11, 2020, 08:32:52 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on March 11, 2020, 08:10:14 AM
I'm not sure we're going to get the same or better outcomes. Online courses typically have a much higher drop-out rate, because the engagement is so impersonal, no matter what is tried to mitigate it. And there are so many things that can't be taught successfully online: lab courses, engineering where you have to do hands-on teamwork, theatre arts, dance, orchestra, clinical practice, and many other things. Some things you could teach wholly online to motivated students. That has always been true, just as motivated, capable students can learn a whole field of education from books. But why do we have universities instead of letting everyone just read books? A lot of it is the structured engagement and interaction that comes from learning in face-to-face groups.
I have no doubt that there are already bean-counting administrators who are yearning to cut everything down to the minimum and get it all online. We've already heard of the automated online courses at for-profit universities, where the instructors just deliver pre-prepared uniform "content" to students. I guess if that's what you call education, then we can restructure higher ed that way, sure.
Our students, especially international ones, are asking for refunds. They didn't go through all the hassle and expense of moving to the United States to stay in their rented rooms and take classes from their computers.
This panic closing of campuses looks like it's shaping up to be a nationwide train wreck for Higher Ed. Probably not the kind of disruption that's really going to result in a considered re-evaluation of how Higher Ed does things.
It's sort of like a hurricane event, only affecting a lot more areas and a lot more colleges.
Schools are closed for a time, contact hours and curricula get kinda hozed, and money will get tight. Many students will receive a reduced educational experience, but it won't be so reduced as to be viewed as catastrophic. Plus, most students if given the choice will opt for the easiest and fastest experience. And they'll take whatever forced campus closure and treat it like a holiday. They'll take time off early and show up late after the campus has already reopened.
Quote from: Aster on March 11, 2020, 03:00:54 PM
It's sort of like a hurricane event, only affecting a lot more areas and a lot more colleges.
Schools are closed for a time, contact hours and curricula get kinda hozed, and money will get tight. Many students will receive a reduced educational experience, but it won't be so reduced as to be viewed as catastrophic. Plus, most students if given the choice will opt for the easiest and fastest experience. And they'll take whatever forced campus closure and treat it like a holiday. They'll take time off early and show up late after the campus has already reopened.
The faculty are not exactly displeased, however.
I teach lab science classes. These involve hands on skills that cannot be replicated through any sort of virtual lab. You also need specialized equipment, so no lab in your kitchen. There really is no satisfactory alternative to labs like these.
Quote from: mythbuster on March 11, 2020, 05:57:37 PM
I teach lab science classes. These involve hands on skills that cannot be replicated through any sort of virtual lab. You also need specialized equipment, so no lab in your kitchen. There really is no satisfactory alternative to labs like these.
Right, so what do people in situations like these do? Mine is somewhat like that. If we just give away passing grades & credits we're not giving them an education. If we fail them we're not being fair to them. If we give them 'inc' then when/how does it get completed?
Quote from: spork on March 11, 2020, 08:45:35 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on March 11, 2020, 08:39:09 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 11, 2020, 08:21:22 AM
Imagine how much cheaper it would be if all classes were taught online.
How can it get cheaper than an instructor showing up in the classroom, delivering a lecture, and interacting with the students in person?
Quote from: spork on March 11, 2020, 08:25:23 AM
Interesting how people jump to online instruction as the only potential change to higher ed.
Is it really necessary to convene all classes in a physical space on campus twice or thrice a week in 50- or 75-minute increments between 8:00 am and 5:00 pm M-F?
That's never been necessary, and alternatives do exist, but the students want to meet in 50 and 75 minute increments between 8 and 5 M-F. Traditional college students don't want to take a class at 8 pm or on Sunday.
"Traditional" is no longer the majority.
Actually it turns out my non traditional students don't want to do that either. People trying to finish a college degree don't usually have 9-5 jobs anyway and if they have kids and family obligations, 8 pm isn't usually a more convenient time for them. Our evening classes always seem to have very low enrollments.
Quote from: mahagonny on March 11, 2020, 06:04:22 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on March 11, 2020, 05:57:37 PM
I teach lab science classes. These involve hands on skills that cannot be replicated through any sort of virtual lab. You also need specialized equipment, so no lab in your kitchen. There really is no satisfactory alternative to labs like these.
Right, so what do people in situations like these do? Mine is somewhat like that. If we just give away passing grades & credits we're not giving them an education. If we fail them we're not being fair to them. If we give them 'inc' then when/how does it get completed?
An incomplete gets finished when the institution reopens. Being set back a term for specific courses falls into the category of "life is unfair", but is the best option for a real education.
Quote from: polly_mer on March 12, 2020, 04:51:53 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on March 11, 2020, 06:04:22 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on March 11, 2020, 05:57:37 PM
I teach lab science classes. These involve hands on skills that cannot be replicated through any sort of virtual lab. You also need specialized equipment, so no lab in your kitchen. There really is no satisfactory alternative to labs like these.
Right, so what do people in situations like these do? Mine is somewhat like that. If we just give away passing grades & credits we're not giving them an education. If we fail them we're not being fair to them. If we give them 'inc' then when/how does it get completed?
An incomplete gets finished when the institution reopens. Being set back a term for specific courses falls into the category of "life is unfair", but is the best option for a real education.
Sure, we all know how incomplete grades work, but this is different. If the student has not received the full serving of beans and rice, there was nothing to digest. The incomplete is not supposed to mean the learning didn't happen because you didn't get your training. It means your part of the arrangement (the student's work) has been delayed but there's reason to believe it will be finished in the near future. As I've always understood things anyway.
I'll do whatever the college and department guide me towards. I can't imagine they could tolerate a slew of incomplete grades in the fall though. Imagine how things play out if the same professor isn't interested in being rehired at that time?
Quote from: mahagonny on March 11, 2020, 09:43:28 AM
I'm wondering to what extent the types of courses that will owing to their nature will be the least successful online will come to be viewed as an inconvenient expense and targeted for special investigation as to their necessity.
This. Only I think that there will also be some disciplines that will be targetted this way regardless of the robustness of their online response, using this "metric" as a pretext.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 11, 2020, 03:21:37 PM
Quote from: Aster on March 11, 2020, 03:00:54 PM
It's sort of like a hurricane event, only affecting a lot more areas and a lot more colleges.
Schools are closed for a time, contact hours and curricula get kinda hozed, and money will get tight. Many students will receive a reduced educational experience, but it won't be so reduced as to be viewed as catastrophic. Plus, most students if given the choice will opt for the easiest and fastest experience. And they'll take whatever forced campus closure and treat it like a holiday. They'll take time off early and show up late after the campus has already reopened.
The faculty are not exactly displeased, however.
No, they're not. And not in a good way. Some of them behave just as badly (or worse) than students.
I have already observed far too many faculty-cancelled classes this week, far more than what happens even during peak flu season.
I'm also seeing many signs on doors saying that office hours are cancelled all week. Just a blanket statement. And when I say they're not having office hours, what I mean is that the faculty are just
not even coming to campus. Our administration has not approved that.
We have no confirmed coranovirus cases in our county. And flu season is mostly over.
I feel that either faculty are either behaving ridiculous, or faculty are taking advantage of the situation to get out of doing their work.
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 11, 2020, 08:32:52 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on March 11, 2020, 08:10:14 AM
I'm not sure we're going to get the same or better outcomes. Online courses typically have a much higher drop-out rate, because the engagement is so impersonal, no matter what is tried to mitigate it. And there are so many things that can't be taught successfully online: lab courses, engineering where you have to do hands-on teamwork, theatre arts, dance, orchestra, clinical practice, and many other things. Some things you could teach wholly online to motivated students. That has always been true, just as motivated, capable students can learn a whole field of education from books. But why do we have universities instead of letting everyone just read books? A lot of it is the structured engagement and interaction that comes from learning in face-to-face groups.
I have no doubt that there are already bean-counting administrators who are yearning to cut everything down to the minimum and get it all online. We've already heard of the automated online courses at for-profit universities, where the instructors just deliver pre-prepared uniform "content" to students. I guess if that's what you call education, then we can restructure higher ed that way, sure.
Our students, especially international ones, are asking for refunds. They didn't go through all the hassle and expense of moving to the United States to stay in their rented rooms and take classes from their computers.
The demand for refunds may restructure higher education in that there are a fair number of schools that would not have the means to open in the fall if they refunded tuition and housing payment for the spring.
Quote from: Aster on March 12, 2020, 10:38:29 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 11, 2020, 03:21:37 PM
Quote from: Aster on March 11, 2020, 03:00:54 PM
It's sort of like a hurricane event, only affecting a lot more areas and a lot more colleges.
Schools are closed for a time, contact hours and curricula get kinda hozed, and money will get tight. Many students will receive a reduced educational experience, but it won't be so reduced as to be viewed as catastrophic. Plus, most students if given the choice will opt for the easiest and fastest experience. And they'll take whatever forced campus closure and treat it like a holiday. They'll take time off early and show up late after the campus has already reopened.
The faculty are not exactly displeased, however.
No, they're not. And not in a good way. Some of them behave just as badly (or worse) than students.
I have already observed far too many faculty-cancelled classes this week, far more than what happens even during peak flu season.
I'm also seeing many signs on doors saying that office hours are cancelled all week. Just a blanket statement. And when I say they're not having office hours, what I mean is that the faculty are just not even coming to campus. Our administration has not approved that.
We have no confirmed coranovirus cases in our county. And flu season is mostly over.
I feel that either faculty are either behaving ridiculous, or faculty are taking advantage of the situation to get out of doing their work.
I will admit that we were, well, a little giddy with the prospect of an extended spring break and "teaching" in our pajamas in front of Netflix...
But then the reality of the trying to make our classes worthwhile, what to cut, what to keep, how to keep the students involved, etc. set in. Not that it is too hard to design online lesson-plans...
...but I have actually been prepping for a particular gen ed class that I teach about every 3rd semester, buying books, reading new stuff, thinking about the class...
...and then in another class I was teaching new material based on the recommendation of a professor, partly so I would learn something new...
...and now we've got a ton of uncertainty and confusion about the rest of the semester.
Plus classes were going well and I seemed to be connecting with students this semester.
I like to think of myself jaded and dismissive, sarcastically navigating the tides of higher education to pay for my writing habit, and now I find myself kind of bummed and anxious.
Stupid friggin' virus.
COVID-19 is "Disruptive"
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk
I was actually beginning to look forward to ten more free hours in my week, with the commute gone, though teaching will be harder. And grading will be harder because students will have more excuses. We are being urged by the chair to be strict. No one may 'walk in' to the session late. We lay down the law. But you know how that goes. We are being supported, but when the rubber hits the road, it might be one big friggin' mess.
I'm definitely taking a 'business use of the home' deduction next year.
Then there's this: https://anygoodthing.com/2020/03/12/please-do-a-bad-job-of-putting-your-courses-online/
Don't ask me!
Can't we charge them for using our computer? They charge us for parking in their lot.
Quote from: mahagonny on March 13, 2020, 06:49:20 AM
Then there's this: https://anygoodthing.com/2020/03/12/please-do-a-bad-job-of-putting-your-courses-online/
This is an exceptionally intelligent and comprehensive guide. I am sharing this with my colleagues immediately. Thank you for posting this.
Quote from: mahagonny on March 13, 2020, 06:49:20 AM
Can't we charge them for using our computer? They charge us for parking in their lot.
Brilliant.
The pandemic is causing a serious economic slowdown. This will affect state tax revenues and thus state budgets significantly, as we saw in 2008. The drop in oil prices will further hurt budgets in states that depend on oil revenue. A lot of public university funding still hasn't recovered from the last crash. And the bear market will mean that there's less money coming from the endowment, if your university has one to speak of.
So prepare for another round of cutting off limbs and removing vital organs. If your university administration and/or state legislature decide that online classes are just as effective as in-person, there's no reason not to turn over all inessential learning to Khan Academy or something similar. If your university is primarily interested in teaching history as a general education requirement, there's no reason to maintain a history department (or math or physics or English or anything else, really) if you can strike a system-wide deal with some online education service provider. Your students and colleagues will never have to deal with a live historian (or physicist, or mathematician) again.
Smart department heads will try to lock in new TT hires before the lines get cut. Smart provosts will suspend searches before the department heads get any wise ideas.
I'm not trying to be alarmist, but it hasn't been all that long since we saw similar economic circumstances, and we saw what the results were, and I see no reason to think that the response this time will be any different. "Cut humanities and other liberal arts" will remain the preferred strategy for balancing budgets until there's nothing there left to cut (a point we may reach this time around).
Lab science strategies in this situation sound interesting:
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/3/13/harvard-coronavirus-research-interruptions/
Not surprising, in some ways, but the shift of emphasis is thought-provoking..
M.
Quote from: nonntt on March 13, 2020, 10:35:06 AM
The pandemic is causing a serious economic slowdown. This will affect state tax revenues and thus state budgets significantly, as we saw in 2008. The drop in oil prices will further hurt budgets in states that depend on oil revenue. A lot of public university funding still hasn't recovered from the last crash. And the bear market will mean that there's less money coming from the endowment, if your university has one to speak of.
So prepare for another round of cutting off limbs and removing vital organs. If your university administration and/or state legislature decide that online classes are just as effective as in-person, there's no reason not to turn over all inessential learning to Khan Academy or something similar. If your university is primarily interested in teaching history as a general education requirement, there's no reason to maintain a history department (or math or physics or English or anything else, really) if you can strike a system-wide deal with some online education service provider. Your students and colleagues will never have to deal with a live historian (or physicist, or mathematician) again.
Smart department heads will try to lock in new TT hires before the lines get cut. Smart provosts will suspend searches before the department heads get any wise ideas.
I'm not trying to be alarmist, but it hasn't been all that long since we saw similar economic circumstances, and we saw what the results were, and I see no reason to think that the response this time will be any different. "Cut humanities and other liberal arts" will remain the preferred strategy for balancing budgets until there's nothing there left to cut (a point we may reach this time around).
Gasoline, home heating oil and kerosene could get cheaper. Diesel fuel, less cost to transport grocery items across the country?
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 11, 2020, 09:07:09 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on March 11, 2020, 08:39:09 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 11, 2020, 08:21:22 AM
Imagine how much cheaper it would be if all classes were taught online.
How can it get cheaper than an instructor showing up in the classroom, delivering a lecture, and interacting with the students in person?
Well, how much would we save on facilities and classroom technology if every prof were teaching from a laptop? Not to mention the small incidentals such as copying costs and janitorial work?
Tech support, increased costs for bandwidth, fees to license copyrighted works for online use? Tech support will be a huge expense, as an amazing number of both students and faculty struggle with fairly basic tech, like saving a Word file as an accessible PDF.
Quote from: mahagonny on March 12, 2020, 05:32:59 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 12, 2020, 04:51:53 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on March 11, 2020, 06:04:22 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on March 11, 2020, 05:57:37 PM
I teach lab science classes. These involve hands on skills that cannot be replicated through any sort of virtual lab. You also need specialized equipment, so no lab in your kitchen. There really is no satisfactory alternative to labs like these.
Right, so what do people in situations like these do? Mine is somewhat like that. If we just give away passing grades & credits we're not giving them an education. If we fail them we're not being fair to them. If we give them 'inc' then when/how does it get completed?
An incomplete gets finished when the institution reopens. Being set back a term for specific courses falls into the category of "life is unfair", but is the best option for a real education.
Sure, we all know how incomplete grades work, but this is different. If the student has not received the full serving of beans and rice, there was nothing to digest. The incomplete is not supposed to mean the learning didn't happen because you didn't get your training. It means your part of the arrangement (the student's work) has been delayed but there's reason to believe it will be finished in the near future. As I've always understood things anyway.
I'll do whatever the college and department guide me towards. I can't imagine they could tolerate a slew of incomplete grades in the fall though. Imagine how things play out if the same professor isn't interested in being rehired at that time?
I can't imagine not allowing incompletes for courses in which students must get the full helping as a true prerequisite in a planned curriculum. That's my engineering hat with plenty of experience dealing with my colleagues in nursing and social work. It's simply not an option to allow people to skip foundational knowledge since everything is cumulative.
Thus, I expect the situation to be (a) the course is important enough to get a faculty member to teach the incompleteness in the fall by whatever means necessary or (b) acknowledgement that the course can just be a participation grade at the end of this term for anyone who didn't drop when the dropping was good because some exposure to the material is sufficient.
I expect that anything that truly matters to the standardized-across-nearly-all-institutions majors is some combination of getting an incomplete with possible options on summer/fall completion with succeeding courses being renovated for this particular cohort all the way up so that all the material is in the curriculum with some less core material being omitted this time to make space for an extra half-term of material being bumped.
Testing out of some courses may be an option as a way to fix the incompletes since some courses are pretty amenable to self study with access to the internet.
Quote from: polly_mer on March 13, 2020, 07:31:14 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on March 12, 2020, 05:32:59 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 12, 2020, 04:51:53 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on March 11, 2020, 06:04:22 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on March 11, 2020, 05:57:37 PM
I teach lab science classes. These involve hands on skills that cannot be replicated through any sort of virtual lab. You also need specialized equipment, so no lab in your kitchen. There really is no satisfactory alternative to labs like these.
Right, so what do people in situations like these do? Mine is somewhat like that. If we just give away passing grades & credits we're not giving them an education. If we fail them we're not being fair to them. If we give them 'inc' then when/how does it get completed?
An incomplete gets finished when the institution reopens. Being set back a term for specific courses falls into the category of "life is unfair", but is the best option for a real education.
Sure, we all know how incomplete grades work, but this is different. If the student has not received the full serving of beans and rice, there was nothing to digest. The incomplete is not supposed to mean the learning didn't happen because you didn't get your training. It means your part of the arrangement (the student's work) has been delayed but there's reason to believe it will be finished in the near future. As I've always understood things anyway.
I'll do whatever the college and department guide me towards. I can't imagine they could tolerate a slew of incomplete grades in the fall though. Imagine how things play out if the same professor isn't interested in being rehired at that time?
I can't imagine not allowing incompletes for courses in which students must get the full helping as a true prerequisite in a planned curriculum. That's my engineering hat with plenty of experience dealing with my colleagues in nursing and social work. It's simply not an option to allow people to skip foundational knowledge since everything is cumulative.
Thus, I expect the situation to be (a) the course is important enough to get a faculty member to teach the incompleteness in the fall by whatever means necessary or (b) acknowledgement that the course can just be a participation grade at the end of this term for anyone who didn't drop when the dropping was good because some exposure to the material is sufficient.
I expect that anything that truly matters to the standardized-across-nearly-all-institutions majors is some combination of getting an incomplete with possible options on summer/fall completion with succeeding courses being renovated for this particular cohort all the way up so that all the material is in the curriculum with some less core material being omitted this time to make space for an extra half-term of material being bumped.
Testing out of some courses may be an option as a way to fix the incompletes since some courses are pretty amenable to self study with access to the internet.
As accurate as it is dreary and depressing. Of course tomorrow I may feel different. 'They'll figure it out -- they're the adjuncts.'
Quote from: Vkw10 on March 13, 2020, 07:06:17 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 11, 2020, 09:07:09 AM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on March 11, 2020, 08:39:09 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 11, 2020, 08:21:22 AM
Imagine how much cheaper it would be if all classes were taught online.
How can it get cheaper than an instructor showing up in the classroom, delivering a lecture, and interacting with the students in person?
Well, how much would we save on facilities and classroom technology if every prof were teaching from a laptop? Not to mention the small incidentals such as copying costs and janitorial work?
Tech support, increased costs for bandwidth, fees to license copyrighted works for online use? Tech support will be a huge expense, as an amazing number of both students and faculty struggle with fairly basic tech, like saving a Word file as an accessible PDF.
More expensive than actually running a campus? Don't think so. We generally have copyrighted works for the classroom included in these automatic enroll course software deals with the publishing houses, not to mention the mass of free stuff already on the Web that many of us use regularly. And most of us are at least savvy enough to work Word, GoogleDocs, PowerPoint, PDF conversion (free online on a number of sites), Blackboard or D2L.
Personally I suspect there will be no long term changes to higher ed. But it will be interesting.
What's a better sign? Students asking for a refund or them not asking for it? If you should get a refund then it means in person teaching is better.
The CHE has another entry in possible changes to higher ed.
(https://www.chronicle.com/article/Why-Coronavirus-Looks-Like-a/248219/)
Quote from: mahagonny on March 13, 2020, 10:15:48 PM
What's a better sign? Students asking for a refund or them not asking for it? If you should get a refund then it means in person teaching is better.
What did the students get for their money, time, and effort?
I've certainly encountered classes in which students should have demanded refunds even for full-time, in-person classes taught by people who should have been experts with substantial experience,
My personal favorite was students paying for a class at the CC that counted as meeting a requirement, but wouldn't count towards credits for graduation, as a way to avoid one terrible face-to-face professor at Super Dinky.
I was amazed to see students then eager to take that same professor's online courses so I checked. That person was a great online professor with gen ed courses that were interesting and required reasonable effort to earn a good grade. Online had no mumbling into the board with the driest lecture possible, but instead had links to great productions with good discussion prompts. Online had lively discussion instead of mostly factual lecture. Online had assessments designed to help students integrate themes instead of gotcha tests on footnotes in readings.
The CHE looks at financial effects of the timing of the covid-19 virus in the budget year (https://www.chronicle.com/article/As-the-Coronavirus-Scrambles/248241?key=4hnbV5pI8DX5eMPXF6nV_aWM-QUZ-1bJx3_EBMeNAVK1duYlpxGe6v4a-b1Y1H7iQXA4YmgtNkp6aFVCTVk5MzgyUnE0RUZNZzhXV214V0ZJUDRjTzNtX1lWbw)
Scenario Planning for Coronavirus (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/03/13/using-strategic-thinking-and-scenario-planning-deal-coronavirus-opinion)
For the previous year's admissions cycle, we had an unusually large incoming class, after missing our enrollment target by 12% the year before. Most faculty reacted with "ok, crisis over, back to usual." I tried making the argument that this was a temporary blip. No reaction.
Now let's assume a scenario similar to what's in the article linked above: spring semester ends without universities resuming face-to-face instruction on campuses. Students have been scattered hither and yon for weeks/months. Simultaneously we have a global recession. Household finances get really tight over the summer. Perhaps by July/August some people realize that there are other places looking to enroll students like Madison and Zachary, many of which are more prestigious and less expensive than where they were enrolled before.
Put more simply: my employer is > 90% tuition dependent, with the bulk of that being undergraduate tuition. If the university is all-online as of the fall semester, there's no reason for students to come here.
Spoke to some behind the scenes people on campus today. We are probably going to take a big financial hit -- disruption of the admissions cycle, demands for refunds on campus housing and tuition, more transfers, etc.
We are a commuter campus with an almost entirely local student body, many of whom live at home. I hope that this will keep the damage down as we transition to finish the semester on-line. This same dynamic may help CCs through the crisis?
I am not doing a particularly good job of migrating things online. My university is totally the kind of place that would muscle out the instructional staff if it could, and I'm not intrerested in looking expendable.
One thing I have to say, though, is that I'm glad the crisis will force my colleagues to lower their assessment standards a bit. For the most part, they're just not appropriate to our student body, a substantial portion of which (i.e. all the international students--which is a lot of students) are being taken advantage of, and really aren't prepared for a university education in a foreign language. My colleagues accept a 75% failure rate in their courses, which is just crazypants. (For my part: a bare pass is relatively easy in my classes, but doing well is not.)
The airline industry has asked Congress for an immediate infusion of $25 billion to tide them over the restructuring they are doing this week and those coming right up. They want another $25 million in loans to handle the restructuring a little bit further ahead. Why isn't the higher-ed industry in there with the same request?
Quote from: Hibush on March 17, 2020, 02:57:58 AM
The airline industry has asked Congress for an immediate infusion of $25 billion to tide them over the restructuring they are doing this week and those coming right up. They want another $25 million in loans to handle the restructuring a little bit further ahead. Why isn't the higher-ed industry in there with the same request?
Because capitalism grants for-profits first in line when it comes to unearned handouts. Higher ed will have to just pull itself up by it's own boot straps.
Quote from: Hibush on March 17, 2020, 02:57:58 AM
The airline industry has asked Congress for an immediate infusion of $25 billion to tide them over the restructuring they are doing this week and those coming right up. They want another $25 million in loans to handle the restructuring a little bit further ahead. Why isn't the higher-ed industry in there with the same request?
This is a great example of public choice theory.
Quote from: Diogenes on March 17, 2020, 04:24:06 AM
Quote from: Hibush on March 17, 2020, 02:57:58 AM
The airline industry has asked Congress for an immediate infusion of $25 billion to tide them over the restructuring they are doing this week and those coming right up. They want another $25 million in loans to handle the restructuring a little bit further ahead. Why isn't the higher-ed industry in there with the same request?
Because capitalism grants for-profits first in line when it comes to unearned handouts. Higher ed will have to just pull itself up by it's own boot straps.
To be fair,
in principle for-profit companies are putting money i
nto government coffers via business taxes and income taxes of employees, while government-funded institutions like universities are always taking money
from the government and would always be happy with more. I'm well aware that for me to work where I do requires all kinds of tax money from for-profit businesses and individuals who work for them. So
at times bailouts make sense.
(Note: Companies like investment banks that don't actually create wealth but made money off sub-prime mortgages, etc. are in a different category. Same for Enron, and others where their apparent success is based on some sort of fraud. Bailouts in those cases are counter-productive since they'll just mess up the economy further.)
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 16, 2020, 07:04:33 PM
One thing I have to say, though, is that I'm glad the crisis will force my colleagues to lower their assessment standards a bit. For the most part, they're just not appropriate to our student body, a substantial portion of which (i.e. all the international students--which is a lot of students) are being taken advantage of, and really aren't prepared for a university education in a foreign language. My colleagues accept a 75% failure rate in their courses, which is just crazypants. (For my part: a bare pass is relatively easy in my classes, but doing well is not.)
This all depends on what someone is in a particular institution to do. When I taught general education courses, the point was to broaden some horizons so my courses were set up so anyone who put sustained effort over the term could get that bare pass and move on.
When I taught engineering courses, the standards were set such that I would be comfortable buying medicine, driving over bridges, and similar activities from professionals out in the world with a degree from my institution. A 75% failure rate for an intro class filled with people who were in love with the thought of a high-paying job without thinking through why that's a high-paying job is pretty standard. That way, students can go find something else to do with their time early in their university careers. I can think of many international students who couldn't hold a conversation in English, but could read English well enough to set up and perform the math to solve problems. I have no concerns about them, much the same way I have no concerns about my current colleagues with physics, math, CS, and engineering PhDs who still can't hold an English conversation at the level of fluent native speaker, but do incredible science, engineering, math, and programming.
When I taught education majors, premeds, and nursing students, I had similar standards because those areas also are ones where people better know what they are doing and it's a public service to help students figure out early that they need a different path through university.
Gen ed courses should basically be eliminated to free up time, energy, and resources for other activities, but fine, checking a box is an acceptable level of pass in that system. Some courses, though, require actually knowing something and should be held at that standard. Institutions that have such large percentages of students who can't do university-level work probably should reevaluate their mission to either remediate and having longer degrees to account for the remediation or stop wasting people's time, energy, and resources.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 17, 2020, 04:55:10 AM
To be fair, in principle for-profit companies are putting money into government coffers via business taxes and income taxes of employees, while government-funded institutions like universities are always taking money from the government and would always be happy with more. I'm well aware that for me to work where I do requires all kinds of tax money from for-profit businesses and individuals who work for them. So at times bailouts make sense.
(Note: Companies like investment banks that don't actually create wealth but made money off sub-prime mortgages, etc. are in a different category. Same for Enron, and others where their apparent success is based on some sort of fraud. Bailouts in those cases are counter-productive since they'll just mess up the economy further.)
Except they don't actually pay taxes https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-01-21/why-delta-with-huge-profits-wont-pay-taxes-for-years
Quote from: polly_mer on March 17, 2020, 06:26:14 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 16, 2020, 07:04:33 PM
One thing I have to say, though, is that I'm glad the crisis will force my colleagues to lower their assessment standards a bit. For the most part, they're just not appropriate to our student body, a substantial portion of which (i.e. all the international students--which is a lot of students) are being taken advantage of, and really aren't prepared for a university education in a foreign language. My colleagues accept a 75% failure rate in their courses, which is just crazypants. (For my part: a bare pass is relatively easy in my classes, but doing well is not.)
This all depends on what someone is in a particular institution to do. When I taught general education courses, the point was to broaden some horizons so my courses were set up so anyone who put sustained effort over the term could get that bare pass and move on.
When I taught engineering courses, the standards were set such that I would be comfortable buying medicine, driving over bridges, and similar activities from professionals out in the world with a degree from my institution. A 75% failure rate for an intro class filled with people who were in love with the thought of a high-paying job without thinking through why that's a high-paying job is pretty standard. That way, students can go find something else to do with their time early in their university careers. I can think of many international students who couldn't hold a conversation in English, but could read English well enough to set up and perform the math to solve problems. I have no concerns about them, much the same way I have no concerns about my current colleagues with physics, math, CS, and engineering PhDs who still can't hold an English conversation at the level of fluent native speaker, but do incredible science, engineering, math, and programming.
When I taught education majors, premeds, and nursing students, I had similar standards because those areas also are ones where people better know what they are doing and it's a public service to help students figure out early that they need a different path through university.
Gen ed courses should basically be eliminated to free up time, energy, and resources for other activities, but fine, checking a box is an acceptable level of pass in that system. Some courses, though, require actually knowing something and should be held at that standard. Institutions that have such large percentages of students who can't do university-level work probably should reevaluate their mission to either remediate and having longer degrees to account for the remediation or stop wasting people's time, energy, and resources.
Without getting into this argument again, I don't really think the distinction is between which things are really important and which aren't. It would be more helpful to think in terms of how different disciplines structure majors or programs in terms of the way that knowledge is built up. The model for a lot of STEM or professional programs is more like building a lego set from a box. Things need to fit in particular ways or the whole thing isn't going to work like it is supposed to. In history on the other hand, it is more like you are building something free form with those legos. Yes, you have parameters and certain sorts of classes you need to take, and a few are required and essential, but many can be swapped out for each other.
Since I think of classes that way, I don't think there's going to be any huge damage if my classes aren't as rigorous or as good as they would be absent these extraordinary circumstances. Or, at least, I don't think the whole structure is going to fall apart. You can still be a history major even if you might have learned a bit more about the Civil War if my class hadn't been forced online. I don't teach grad students, but I would actually feel quite differently about requirements for a PHD or a masters in these circumstances. Getting a doctorate means having completed a series of requirements. A department couldn't in good conscience just say "Oh, well, because of this disruptive event, we are just going to let people without the required knowledge pass comps," or "This person couldn't write a satisfactory thesis or adequately defend it" but its a bad semester so have this doctorate." You need to be able to keep the same standards. I think I'd feel basically the same if I was teaching the required skills course for undergrads in my department. If students are going to pass that course they need to be able to acquire certain skills and do certain things if they are going to be majors, so you have to make sure you can modify the course in a way that is going to result in them getting those skills.
Quote from: Caracal on March 17, 2020, 07:54:22 AM
Without getting into this argument again, I don't really think the distinction is between which things are really important and which aren't. It would be more helpful to think in terms of how different disciplines structure majors or programs in terms of the way that knowledge is built up. The model for a lot of STEM or professional programs is more like building a lego set from a box. Things need to fit in particular ways or the whole thing isn't going to work like it is supposed to. In history on the other hand, it is more like you are building something free form with those legos. Yes, you have parameters and certain sorts of classes you need to take, and a few are required and essential, but many can be swapped out for each other.
Except that, from what I understand, it still doesn't work quite like that. If you're building with Lego, you can swap out a red brick for a yellow one, but if you're going to build
on top of it, you still
specifically need a brick there. From what I've seen all kinds of humanities courses past first year have no prerequisites; the only requirement is that you be beyond first year. So, it's more like in STEM, you're building
towers of Lego, whereas in many humanities you're building a free form structure that doesn't get more than about 2 layers high. It may cover a lot more area, but it can't go as high.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 16, 2020, 07:04:33 PM
I am not doing a particularly good job of migrating things online. My university is totally the kind of place that would muscle out the instructional staff if it could, and I'm not intrerested in looking expendable.
I just got a message for all instructional faculty about a webinar series running today and tomorrow:
How to teach lab courses on line. I might watch out of morbid curiosity. Organic synthesis on the stove at home, counting on the vent hood to disperse the toxic emissions?
Quote from: Hibush on March 17, 2020, 08:17:34 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 16, 2020, 07:04:33 PM
I am not doing a particularly good job of migrating things online. My university is totally the kind of place that would muscle out the instructional staff if it could, and I'm not intrerested in looking expendable.
I just got a message for all instructional faculty about a webinar series running today and tomorrow: How to teach lab courses on line.
I might watch out of morbid curiosity. Organic synthesis on the stove at home, counting on the vent hood to disperse the toxic emissions?
Didn't Mary Shelley write a book about that kind of thing?
LOL!
Hotels raised the airlines' bid today. They want $150 billion. Where is the Association of American Colleges & Universities in the handout line? Congress is negotiation massive handouts. It is essential to be in line now.
I would be happy if this pandemic demonstrates how much of "college" consists of unnecessary, expensive fluff -- in terms of the norms for curricular content and delivery, student activities, athletics, etc. For example: Why must college consist of eight semesters over a four-year period? Why have an academic calendar that consists of just two 15-week semesters per year, with over a month off in December/January and a three month hiatus over the summer? (Yes, I know there are many post-secondary institutions that offer a summer term, but ours doesn't and we're not the only one.)
Quote from: spork on March 18, 2020, 05:53:10 AM
I would be happy if this pandemic demonstrates how much of "college" consists of unnecessary, expensive fluff -- in terms of the norms for curricular content and delivery, student activities, athletics, etc. For example: Why must college consist of eight semesters over a four-year period? Why have an academic calendar that consists of just two 15-week semesters per year, with over a month off in December/January and a three month hiatus over the summer? (Yes, I know there are many post-secondary institutions that offer a summer term, but ours doesn't and we're not the only one.)
Because institutions work in certain ways? Because all of this wasn't created by an educational theorist in 2010? Because if it had been it would probably all be terrible in different ways? All kinds of things are "unnecessary." You could make a pretty good argument that the vast majority of necessary formalized learning has already taken place by sixth grade, maybe earlier. Really if someone can teach you how to read and write and you get some really basic arithmetic you can probably fill in the rest if you want to badly enough. In the 19th century, lots of prominent Americans had extremely limited and sporadic formal education. Lincoln got about a year. After that he just read a lot. Frederick Douglass literally scrounged up reading material and basically taught himself how to read, but most people aren't Frederick Douglass...
The point is that of course most parts of the educational system are superfluous. Nobody needs us to learn about the Civil War or Organic Chemistry. There are books and you don't even need to leave the house to read them. Colleges are cultural and social institutions and that's the context in which people learn things there. I think you could make a pretty good argument that the weight put on these institutions is a driver of inequality right now. If you were a white man in the 19th century, it was a lot easier to move up in the US than it is now, and it helped that educational credentials weren't required in most professions. However, I think it misses the point to argue that colleges should somehow be cut back to the "essentials" as if we can remake the whole thing in one stroke.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 17, 2020, 08:25:36 AM
Quote from: Hibush on March 17, 2020, 08:17:34 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 16, 2020, 07:04:33 PM
I am not doing a particularly good job of migrating things online. My university is totally the kind of place that would muscle out the instructional staff if it could, and I'm not intrerested in looking expendable.
I just got a message for all instructional faculty about a webinar series running today and tomorrow: How to teach lab courses on line.
I might watch out of morbid curiosity. Organic synthesis on the stove at home, counting on the vent hood to disperse the toxic emissions?
Didn't Mary Shelley write a book about that kind of thing?
She did, but it's probably not the one that you're thinking of ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Man (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Man)
Quote from: Caracal on March 18, 2020, 07:15:45 AM
Quote from: spork on March 18, 2020, 05:53:10 AM
I would be happy if this pandemic demonstrates how much of "college" consists of unnecessary, expensive fluff -- in terms of the norms for curricular content and delivery, student activities, athletics, etc. For example: Why must college consist of eight semesters over a four-year period? Why have an academic calendar that consists of just two 15-week semesters per year, with over a month off in December/January and a three month hiatus over the summer? (Yes, I know there are many post-secondary institutions that offer a summer term, but ours doesn't and we're not the only one.)
Because institutions work in certain ways? Because all of this wasn't created by an educational theorist in 2010? Because if it had been it would probably all be terrible in different ways? All kinds of things are "unnecessary." You could make a pretty good argument that the vast majority of necessary formalized learning has already taken place by sixth grade, maybe earlier. Really if someone can teach you how to read and write and you get some really basic arithmetic you can probably fill in the rest if you want to badly enough. In the 19th century, lots of prominent Americans had extremely limited and sporadic formal education. Lincoln got about a year. After that he just read a lot. Frederick Douglass literally scrounged up reading material and basically taught himself how to read, but most people aren't Frederick Douglass...
The point is that of course most parts of the educational system are superfluous. Nobody needs us to learn about the Civil War or Organic Chemistry. There are books and you don't even need to leave the house to read them. Colleges are cultural and social institutions and that's the context in which people learn things there. I think you could make a pretty good argument that the weight put on these institutions is a driver of inequality right now. If you were a white man in the 19th century, it was a lot easier to move up in the US than it is now, and it helped that educational credentials weren't required in most professions. However, I think it misses the point to argue that colleges should somehow be cut back to the "essentials" as if we can remake the whole thing in one stroke.
Anybody remember the debacle with a guy named Marty Nemko, lo, these many years ago? The guy had a column in the Chronicle of Higher Education for about 10 minutes in which he suggested all sorts of things, everything from how to negotiate the job market to re-calibrating higher ed, including getting rid of summer break, and he even went so far as to suggest that we eliminate college campuses----have everything, including dorms, in one or two high rise buildings; faculty should have cubicles, not offices, etc. Never mind that we already operate on campuses that have existed for 100 years, etc.
The poor guy was excoriated so badly he scuttled his own column.
I think we could improve higher ed. We just need to be smart and non-radicalized about it.
One higher-ed group has jumped in. The United Negro College Fund and the Thurgood Marshall Fund are lobbying for $1.5 billion to HBCUs. That's a higher ed sector that has been financially precarious recently.
I can see one potential effect: more outsourcing of back-end systems to centralized service providers. Higher ups here have discovered that staff cannot work from home because 1) they lack their own computers and 2) historically the university has refused to provide VPN access.
Just like separately teaching thousands of sections of the same course at the same time but in different geographic locations, stand-alone data management at hundreds of campuses across the country is not necessarily the best approach.
I'm sure this has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, but all the college-as-we-know-it-is-over talk I'm hearing is making me sad and scared.
On the other hand, everyone advancing that narrative still expects their kids to go to college, so maybe we're okay.
Quote from: spork on March 19, 2020, 08:08:33 AM
I can see one potential effect: more outsourcing of back-end systems to centralized service providers. Higher ups here have discovered that staff cannot work from home because 1) they lack their own computers and 2) historically the university has refused to provide VPN access.
Just like separately teaching thousands of sections of the same course at the same time but in different geographic locations, stand-alone data management at hundreds of campuses across the country is not necessarily the best approach.
Maybe. But centralized data management has its own problems, especially if there is insufficient redundancy. One option for more localized crises is mutual backup -- two campuses backing up one another's key systems.
We run the risk of learning the wrong lessons from each crisis. On the Eastern seaboard, we're now much more robust in our responses to hurricanes, and (to a lesser extent) active shooters. But planning for another pandemic presumes the same combination of effects: quarantine, supply chain disruption, market disruption, and an oil crisis, and the like, while retaining robust internet access that allows remote work. If there were also localized disruptions to power grids, say, centralized systems have different vulnerabilities. Smaller, concentrated networks might be more nimble in their responses.
On the national level, I think there's growing realization that outsourcing the manufacture of almost all prescription drugs, medical supplies, and computer components might not have been such a great idea. Outsourcing can save money, and concentration can lead to economies of scale, but it's worth reflecting upon the downsides. It was the same argument put forward to protect the domestic steel industry, whatever you think of its outcome.
Since my university, and others, have adopted pass/fail grading options for this semester, it might demonstrate just how unnecessarily expensive the "eight semesters of college replete with general education requirements" is.
Quote from: spork on March 25, 2020, 07:00:37 AM
Since my university, and others, have adopted pass/fail grading options for this semester, it might demonstrate just how unnecessarily expensive the "eight semesters of college replete with general education requirements" is.
Oh good heavens.
I'd be interested in knowing how a P/NP option under the extreme and unprecedented stress of COVID-19 is evidence of anything other than the extreme and unprecedented stress of COVID-19...but I'm not.
Obsessive need to tear down the tapestries of education much?
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 25, 2020, 08:53:32 AM
Obsessive need to tear down the tapestries of education much?
Given that there are lots of other large castles with different tapestries, it doesn't hurt to consider what function(s) the tapestries perform and whether there may be any valuable insights to gain from the other castles, rather than just insisting that the ones currently in place are untouchable.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 25, 2020, 08:53:32 AM
Quote from: spork on March 25, 2020, 07:00:37 AM
Since my university, and others, have adopted pass/fail grading options for this semester, it might demonstrate just how unnecessarily expensive the "eight semesters of college replete with general education requirements" is.
Oh good heavens.
I'd be interested in knowing how a P/NP option under the extreme and unprecedented stress of COVID-19 is evidence of anything other than the extreme and unprecedented stress of COVID-19...but I'm not.
Obsessive need to tear down the tapestries of education much?
When you have a hammer, you see a lot of nails other people don't see. When you have a point to make, you see a lot of connections other people don't make.
Yeah, I don't see it either.
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on March 25, 2020, 07:43:43 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 25, 2020, 08:53:32 AM
Quote from: spork on March 25, 2020, 07:00:37 AM
Since my university, and others, have adopted pass/fail grading options for this semester, it might demonstrate just how unnecessarily expensive the "eight semesters of college replete with general education requirements" is.
Oh good heavens.
I'd be interested in knowing how a P/NP option under the extreme and unprecedented stress of COVID-19 is evidence of anything other than the extreme and unprecedented stress of COVID-19...but I'm not.
Obsessive need to tear down the tapestries of education much?
When you have a hammer, you see a lot of nails other people don't see. When you have a point to make, you see a lot of connections other people don't make.
Yeah, I don't see it either.
Let's not blow up the system just yet. The desire to restructure during a panic says more about the propagation of an inherent bias than a thoughtful response to a crazy dilemma. We can debate the structure later. For now, focus on holding ourselves, our classes, our institutions and our students together. No good comes of capitulating to chaos.
Quote from: Antiphon1 on March 26, 2020, 06:45:32 PM
Quote from: tuxthepenguin on March 25, 2020, 07:43:43 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 25, 2020, 08:53:32 AM
Quote from: spork on March 25, 2020, 07:00:37 AM
Since my university, and others, have adopted pass/fail grading options for this semester, it might demonstrate just how unnecessarily expensive the "eight semesters of college replete with general education requirements" is.
Oh good heavens.
I'd be interested in knowing how a P/NP option under the extreme and unprecedented stress of COVID-19 is evidence of anything other than the extreme and unprecedented stress of COVID-19...but I'm not.
Obsessive need to tear down the tapestries of education much?
When you have a hammer, you see a lot of nails other people don't see. When you have a point to make, you see a lot of connections other people don't make.
Yeah, I don't see it either.
Let's not blow up the system just yet. The desire to restructure during a panic says more about the propagation of an inherent bias than a thoughtful response to a crazy dilemma. We can debate the structure later. For now, focus on holding ourselves, our classes, our institutions and our students together. No good comes of capitulating to chaos.
+1
The system has already blown up, in the sense that it will be unable to return to pre-Covid-19 business as usual quickly enough.
From The Chronicle (https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Great-Recession-Was-Bad/248317):
"Increasing tuition will no longer be an option for higher education in dealing with the current economic meltdown — primarily because families cannot afford to handle the burden. Tuition for all institutions jumped nearly 30 percent between 2007-8 and 2014-15, while real median income fell roughly 6.5 percent over the same time period."
Quote from: spork on March 27, 2020, 05:42:01 AM
The system has already blown up, in the sense that it will be unable to return to pre-Covid-19 business as usual quickly enough.
From The Chronicle (https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Great-Recession-Was-Bad/248317):
"Increasing tuition will no longer be an option for higher education in dealing with the current economic meltdown — primarily because families cannot afford to handle the burden. Tuition for all institutions jumped nearly 30 percent between 2007-8 and 2014-15, while real median income fell roughly 6.5 percent over the same time period."
There will always be some increases in tuition. The main effect will be in the enrollment numbers. Also, it would be really weird to base an analysis on what happened through 2014-15, since you're basically focused on a period from just before the recession to when things started to improve. Another thing is that "30% increase in tuition" sounds scarier than "3.75% increase per year". I feel like I'm Reviewer #2 explaining the reasons your paper should be rejected.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 25, 2020, 08:53:32 AM
Quote from: spork on March 25, 2020, 07:00:37 AM
Since my university, and others, have adopted pass/fail grading options for this semester, it might demonstrate just how unnecessarily expensive the "eight semesters of college replete with general education requirements" is.
Oh good heavens.
I'd be interested in knowing how a P/NP option under the extreme and unprecedented stress of COVID-19 is evidence of anything other than the extreme and unprecedented stress of COVID-19...but I'm not.
Obsessive need to tear down the tapestries of education much?
Yeah, this is just a bizarre and silly take within a bizarre and silly conversation. Why is high school four years and not five, or three? How about instead of having three meals a day we switch to six? None of these things were arrived at by a committee in 1925. They exist because we live in a world that has histories and various culture ideas and expectations built around those histories. That doesn't make it sacred, certainly lots of things can be changed, but people who want to change them need to consider the costs vs the benefits.
In this case it is particularly silly because what does changing pass/fail rules have to do with the importance or necessity of courses? I guess you could make this argument if schools were proposing to just give credit without finishing the semester. Instead this seems like a fair and compassionate way to acknowledge that students have found themselves taking courses that are dramatically different from the ones they started in January and that their lives have also been significantly impacted in a variety of ways at the same time. Students still have to meet the same minimum qualifications to receive credit for the course, but those who do that but find their performance hurt by lack of internet, or dramatically changed family circumstances, or an understandable decline in focus, don't get unfairly penalized compared to others who might find themselves with plenty of time and fewer distractions.
Having worked a number of jobs that I absolutely hated, I understand the impulse to want the ship to ground itself, but this is where we make the distinction between an objective professional observation and a vent of personal frustration.
Quote from: spork on March 27, 2020, 05:42:01 AM
The system has already blown up, in the sense that it will be unable to return to pre-Covid-19 business as usual quickly enough.
From The Chronicle (https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Great-Recession-Was-Bad/248317):
"Increasing tuition will no longer be an option for higher education in dealing with the current economic meltdown — primarily because families cannot afford to handle the burden. Tuition for all institutions jumped nearly 30 percent between 2007-8 and 2014-15, while real median income fell roughly 6.5 percent over the same time period."
Please understand that this is not a reply to the substance of your comment. Rather, I am suggesting that you are conflating some issues. We won't solve funding issues, program structure, quality of instruction or any other change to the bureaucracy through delivery of information. If that were the case, libraries would long ago have replaced schools and universities. While we all have our preferences and favored theories, we can't say those biases are shared by everyone. Or are even the solution this problem needs.
There will always be a place for on campus instruction even as we incorporate more virtual learning. The trick is matching the delivery method best suited to the kind of learning we are looking for. Online learning is not necessarily less expensive. Nor is it always equivalent to face to face instruction. There are some forms of knowledge that are best passed in person not by video. But again, this discussion doesn't necessarily address the circumstances we find ourselves in at this juncture. Sweating the cost or the delivery method right now doesn't address how we move forward to finish this semester.
I dare say some of the cost concerns will be addressed after we pay for this pandemic. Higher education most certainly will have some adjustments to make. However, the adjustments will have to do with our priority realignments of basic needs rather than fussing over core curriculum requirements. Again, lets focus on what we have to do now. The system will most certainly find its own equilibrium regardless of our agreement or disagreement with the process.
Name a fundamental physical law of the universe that says a bachelor's degree requiring 120 credits needs to be earned over an eight-semester period stretched out across four years.
Lovet, Meyer, Thille, "The Open Learning Initiative: Measuring the Effectiveness of the OLI Statistics Course in Accelerating Student Learning," Carnegie Mellon U., 2008:
"This report documents several learning effectiveness studies that were focused on the OLI Statistics course and conducted during Fall 2005, Spring 2006, and Spring 2007. During the Fall 2005 and Spring 2006 studies, we collected empirical data about the instructional effectiveness of the OLI-Statistics course in stand-alone mode, as compared to traditional instruction. In both of these studies, in-class exam scores showed no significant difference between students in the stand-alone OLI-Statistics course and students in the traditional instructor-led course. In contrast, during the Spring 2007 study, we explored an accelerated learning hypothesis, namely, that learners using the OLI course in hybrid mode will learn the same amount of material in a significantly shorter period of time with equal learning gains, as compared to students in traditional instruction. In this study, results showed that OLI-Statistics students learned a full semester's worth of material in half as much time and performed as well or better than students learning from traditional instruction over a full semester."
Griffiths et al., "Interactive Online Learning on Campus," Ithaka S+R, 2014:
"Ithaka S+R collaborated with the University System of Maryland to test the use of interactive online learning platforms in seventeen courses across seven universities . . . Our findings add empirical weight to an emerging consensus that technology can be used to enhance productivity in higher education by reducing costs without compromising student outcomes. Students in the hybrid sections did as well or slightly better than students in the traditional sections in terms of pass rates and learning assessments, a finding that held across disciplines and subgroups of students. We found no evidence supporting the worry that disadvantaged or academically underprepared students were harmed by taking hybrid courses. These findings are significant given that instructors were teaching the redesigned courses and using new technology platforms for the first time, with, on average, just over half as much class time as traditionally taught sections."
Name a fundamental physical law of the universe that says North Americans drive on the right side of the street and those crazy Brits drive on the left.
It is what it is because it's what we've got after we got there.
Later, when Elon Musk gives us hovercrafts, we can recalibrate.
From The Chronicle:
The Bailout Is Just the Start: Why Higher Ed Needs to Build a Sustainable Model (https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Bailout-Is-Just-the-Start-/248393).
Most important research findings:
- Typically two-thirds of an institution's undergraduates major in no more than 12 programs.
- Colleges could be teaching as many as 30 percent more students with existing resources by paying closer attention to class size, percentage of seats filled, scheduling, and the mix of face-to-face, online, and hybrid offerings
Yes, I know this article is paywalled. I accessed it through my employer's library, which subscribes.
Yes, I know the author founded the consulting firm whose research he cites in the article. So what? He probably has a stable job that pays a good income and understands the finances of higher ed a lot better than many faculty members.
Quote from: spork on April 01, 2020, 05:46:33 AM
Yes, I know the author founded the consulting firm whose research he cites in the article. So what? He probably has a stable job that pays a good income and understands the finances of higher ed a lot better than many faculty members.
Being a consultant means nothing. By "nothing" I mean nothing in the literal sense. There are consultants that bring absolutely nothing to the table. I've seen some of the most ignorant and bizarre proposals come from consultants. In some cases, it's not clear they have ever even set foot on a college campus. Some are good, but just because it's a consultant doesn't mean they know anything about how higher ed works.
Understanding finances better than faculty members doesn't mean anything either. They're not the ones dealing with the numbers. I can assure you that the *administrators* that actually work with finances have a very good handle of the numbers. The main problem with admin is too much focus on the numbers and not enough focus on the student and faculty experience.
Simple question: in the absence of a "campus experience," what percentage of students, who have until now enrolled at your employer, will still be willing to pay what they've been paying in tuition?
In my employer's case, it's probably less than 50%.
Quote from: spork on April 01, 2020, 11:51:18 AM
Simple question: in the absence of a "campus experience," what percentage of students, who have until now enrolled at your employer, will still be willing to pay what they've been paying in tuition?
In my employer's case, it's probably less than 50%.
That would make a great survey, since all students would be eligible (so no sampling bias) and would put a dollar value on the "experience" vs "education" difference.
Quote from: spork on April 01, 2020, 11:51:18 AM
Simple question: in the absence of a "campus experience," what percentage of students, who have until now enrolled at your employer, will still be willing to pay what they've been paying in tuition?
In my employer's case, it's probably less than 50%.
Snarky answer:
Most of my students would dance in the streets if they were told they would no longer be required to have their "campus experience". They might even offer to pay double the tuition to skip it.
Complex answer:
Our specific campus experience isn't frats and climbing walls, and it is not at all clear how we can operate without that experience. Current licensure requirements include residency. We've received partial dispensation during a declared state of emergency, but no blanket authorization for distance learning.
We are not the only specialized institution facing this challenge. This was brought home to me during a conference call when the director of the mortuary studies program at another campus was ruminating on how to teach embalming via Zoom. Taxes can be filed remotely; death still requires the human touch.
Quote from: spork on April 01, 2020, 11:51:18 AM
Simple question: in the absence of a "campus experience," what percentage of students, who have until now enrolled at your employer, will still be willing to pay what they've been paying in tuition?
In my employer's case, it's probably less than 50%.
Why are we asking leading questions when we are in the midst of an unprecedented event?
Because disasters don't "just happen," they are historically constructed by human action (or inaction).
Quote from: spork on April 02, 2020, 09:51:50 AM
Because disasters don't "just happen," they are historically constructed by human action (or inaction).
Hurricane Katrina comes to mind; the outcomes were significantly worse than they might have been due to the historical neglect of the levees.
Fall 2020 admits to top MBA programs want deferred entry or tuition discount if classes are still online:
https://poetsandquants.com/2020/03/29/pq-survey-a-third-of-admits-may-defer-while-43-want-tuition-lowered-if-classes-are-online/ (https://poetsandquants.com/2020/03/29/pq-survey-a-third-of-admits-may-defer-while-43-want-tuition-lowered-if-classes-are-online/).
Power law relationship between online enrollment and rank by total enrollment: https://philonedtech.com/clay-shirky-on-mega-universities-and-scale/ (https://philonedtech.com/clay-shirky-on-mega-universities-and-scale/).
Quoted from the Colleges in Dire Financial Straits thread:
Quote from: dr_codex on April 17, 2020, 07:03:49 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on April 16, 2020, 07:10:06 PM
Second, I really want to know specific actions individuals can take now and why those actions will work this time when human beings seldom change their group behavior and there's no reason to expect they would change now.
Yes, this is an unusual time and predictions can be wrong. However, not all predictions are equally likely, especially those that are very much like the give-the-Dean-a-huge-bag-of-money goblin in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather style wishful thinking.
I don't know if this counts as individual action or group behavior, but the first thing that's going to be frozen or deleted from almost every budget is travel. I'm supposed to be on the other side of the country at a conference today, but we will be ZOOMing it instead. Everybody I know who works at a non-profit (educational or otherwise) is slashing all non-essential travel. I am co-sponsoring a conference in the Fall, and have already proposed making it a virtual event. This should save money, and greatly reduce the chance that it will be delayed again.
I'll take up other individual actions on another thread.
I've been telling my wife for years that at some point the subsidization of academic associations by universities, through the reimbursement of faculty membership and conference attendance costs, will end. Maybe that point is now.
Quote from: spork on April 17, 2020, 09:26:51 AM
I've been telling my wife for years that at some point the subsidization of academic associations by universities, through the reimbursement of faculty membership and conference attendance costs, will end. Maybe
that point is now.
I'm not so sure. The conference movement at universities is not limited to academics. There is also a large conferencing fanbase among college administrators, college leaders, Board Members, college organizations, etc... And those folks may have just as much or even more pull than the professors. They're missing their international trips, networking, face-time just as keenly as we are.
I would lay even odds that if anything, the value of face-to-face interactions and conferencing will become even more highly prized, now that we all are painfully realizing just how lousy everything is in the current situation.
But maybe the less desirable and glamorous conferences will suffer a mass extinction.
Quote from: Aster on April 17, 2020, 12:41:23 PM
Quote from: spork on April 17, 2020, 09:26:51 AM
I've been telling my wife for years that at some point the subsidization of academic associations by universities, through the reimbursement of faculty membership and conference attendance costs, will end. Maybe
that point is now.
I'm not so sure. The conference movement at universities is not limited to academics. There is also a large conferencing fanbase among college administrators, college leaders, Board Members, college organizations, etc... And those folks may have just as much or even more pull than the professors. They're missing their international trips, networking, face-time just as keenly as we are.
I would lay even odds that if anything, the value of face-to-face interactions and conferencing will become even more highly prized, now that we all are painfully realizing just how lousy everything is in the current situation.
But maybe the less desirable and glamorous conferences will suffer a mass extinction.
The elimination of the unreimbursed employee expenses line in the most recent US tax code makes it all the more important to have employers foot the bill. I tried asking my accountant if I could become an LLC or a pass-through corporation, but no dice.
On the plus side, I was able to donate my registration fee, and can write it off next year. But that came out of my pocket.
Pay-walled Chronicle article on permanently changing the academic calendar in response to Covid-19:
https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Next-Casualty-of-the/248543 (https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Next-Casualty-of-the/248543).
The article includes this line, somewhat buried: "Purdue already offers about 200 courses online — mainly to meet general-education requirements."
Another article on changing the academic calendar, this time at Beloit:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/04/20/beloit-redesigns-its-academic-calendar-give-itself-more-flexibility-if-covid-19 (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/04/20/beloit-redesigns-its-academic-calendar-give-itself-more-flexibility-if-covid-19).
IHE essay:
https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/higher-ed-gamma/end-college-we-knew-it
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2020, 12:38:02 PM
IHE essay:
https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/higher-ed-gamma/end-college-we-knew-it
This is, of course, a laundry list familiar to anybody in higher ed during the last five years:
A site-bound coming-of-age experience will persist but will be supplemented by various online offerings, including MOOCs, a wide array of certificate and certification programs, boot camps and other "last-mile" skills programs, and various alternatives to the traditional course- and credits-based model: competency-based, blended, modularized and gamified; stackable credentials; noncredit-to-credit pathways; co-op and other earn-learn models; badges and microcredentials; accelerated degree programs; structured, career-aligned pathways; work-to-learn models; prior learning assessment; and applied bachelor's, among others.I'd say that all of these have had at least some traction at my place. In some cases, there was pushback (E.g., if we give almost the entire degree's credits for prior skills, what value does the degree have? Isn't it just a "BA/BS equivalency" at that point; all fine, but not something earned at this college). The singular exception is MOOCs, which were always either a philanthropic enterprise (that's the O as in "Open"), or a boondoggle once they started trying to earn revenue. The list certainly encapsulates the hobby horses of state systems over that time.
In some ways, those calls for change have laid some groundwork for more substantial change. For instance, we made up CMS shells for all courses, and populated them, even if they were never used. Possibly a waste of resources, although in some ways it's easier just to do it for everybody rather than trying to track who needs what every semester. It certainly made the emergency pivot to distance learning easier, even if it was not easy. The constant calls to blow everything up -- well represented on this forum -- have at least forced people to more clearly articulate their defenses of the old, even if the revolution was not yet at hand.
And maybe the revolution is at hand. But it isn't just the schools that are going to suffer during a time of disruptive innovation. Many students are poorly prepared for distance learning.
The golden age for Academic Coaches and Consultants has arrived.
Quote from: dr_codex on April 21, 2020, 06:09:28 AM
It certainly made the emergency pivot to distance learning easier, even if it was not easy. The constant calls to blow everything up -- well represented on this forum -- have at least forced people to more clearly articulate their defenses of the old, even if the revolution was not yet at hand.
The question everyone has been dealing with for weeks now is "How can we make the remote experience as meaningful as possible?" The longer this distancing is enforced, the more the question when the end is in sight will become "How can we make the
in-person experience as meaningful as possible?"
Let's face it: with huge lectures, tutorials delivered by TAs, and so on, there are lots of situations where the "face-to-face" description of classes is barely relevant.
With the technology that exists now, it's vastly cheaper to get people together virtually than physically, so it's definitely time to deliberately consider what experiences
can't be easily created virtually so that face-to-face learning is actually worth the cost.
Thinking about how to be deliberate about making in-person interaction most effective is a very good thing.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2020, 06:59:55 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on April 21, 2020, 06:09:28 AM
It certainly made the emergency pivot to distance learning easier, even if it was not easy. The constant calls to blow everything up -- well represented on this forum -- have at least forced people to more clearly articulate their defenses of the old, even if the revolution was not yet at hand.
The question everyone has been dealing with for weeks now is "How can we make the remote experience as meaningful as possible?" The longer this distancing is enforced, the more the question when the end is in sight will become "How can we make the in-person experience as meaningful as possible?"
Let's face it: with huge lectures, tutorials delivered by TAs, and so on, there are lots of situations where the "face-to-face" description of classes is barely relevant.
With the technology that exists now, it's vastly cheaper to get people together virtually than physically, so it's definitely time to deliberately consider what experiences can't be easily created virtually so that face-to-face learning is actually worth the cost.
Thinking about how to be deliberate about making in-person interaction most effective is a very good thing.
Absolutely agree with the
bolded paragraph. It's hard to justify the lecture theatre model, which is probably the easiest thing to move online.
Quote from: dr_codex on April 21, 2020, 07:43:16 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2020, 06:59:55 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on April 21, 2020, 06:09:28 AM
It certainly made the emergency pivot to distance learning easier, even if it was not easy. The constant calls to blow everything up -- well represented on this forum -- have at least forced people to more clearly articulate their defenses of the old, even if the revolution was not yet at hand.
The question everyone has been dealing with for weeks now is "How can we make the remote experience as meaningful as possible?" The longer this distancing is enforced, the more the question when the end is in sight will become "How can we make the in-person experience as meaningful as possible?"
Let's face it: with huge lectures, tutorials delivered by TAs, and so on, there are lots of situations where the "face-to-face" description of classes is barely relevant.
With the technology that exists now, it's vastly cheaper to get people together virtually than physically, so it's definitely time to deliberately consider what experiences can't be easily created virtually so that face-to-face learning is actually worth the cost.
Thinking about how to be deliberate about making in-person interaction most effective is a very good thing.
Absolutely agree with the bolded paragraph. It's hard to justify the lecture theatre model, which is probably the easiest thing to move online.
Actually online is
better than the lecture theatre model in lots of ways.
- Everyone gets an equally good view.
- The volume is adjustable.
- The lecture can be paused, rewound, and repeated as many times as needed (if it's recorded).
Large lecture theatre classes are basically the
worst of both worlds.
Universities do not maintain the giant theatre lecture model except for the one reason that it is cheapest and easiest modality.
It is definitely easier and cheaper to operate it compared to converting into a fully online format. The exception to that would be a MOOC-formatted course.
Yay, MOOC's. They did so well when they came out.
Quote from: Aster on April 21, 2020, 09:17:55 AM
Universities do not maintain the giant theatre lecture model except for the one reason that it is cheapest and easiest modality.
It is definitely easier and cheaper to operate it compared to converting into a fully online format. The exception to that would be a MOOC-formatted course.
Yay, MOOC's. They did so well when they came out.
Yes, but that's because MOOCs are not courses. They are glorified digital textbooks.
Anything that requires actual teachers is going to take work, and cost money.
Anything that is so obviously easier and cheaper is almost certainly a scam.
Quote from: dr_codex on April 21, 2020, 10:31:18 AM
Quote from: Aster on April 21, 2020, 09:17:55 AM
Universities do not maintain the giant theatre lecture model except for the one reason that it is cheapest and easiest modality.
It is definitely easier and cheaper to operate it compared to converting into a fully online format. The exception to that would be a MOOC-formatted course.
Yay, MOOC's. They did so well when they came out.
Yes, but that's because MOOCs are not courses. They are glorified digital textbooks.
Anything that requires actual teachers is going to take work, and cost money.
Anything that is so obviously easier and cheaper is almost certainly a scam.
That's the saying, right? Cheap. Fast. Good. Pick two...
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2020, 06:59:55 AM
Let's face it: with huge lectures, tutorials delivered by TAs, and so on, there are lots of situations where the "face-to-face" description of classes is barely relevant.
This is true if the only F2F element considered is teacher-student. But there's a lot of social and cultural capital that comes with being F2F with peers too (even making friends in the back row of that large lecture theater).
Quote from: bacardiandlime on April 22, 2020, 03:49:44 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2020, 06:59:55 AM
Let's face it: with huge lectures, tutorials delivered by TAs, and so on, there are lots of situations where the "face-to-face" description of classes is barely relevant.
This is true if the only F2F element considered is teacher-student. But there's a lot of social and cultural capital that comes with being F2F with peers too (even making friends in the back row of that large lecture theater).
Social identity and group affiliation are baked into the business model of tuition-dependent, low-enrollment institutions in the USA. E.g., students who live in campus dorms and are members of DIII sports teams often have better retention rates than commuter students who don't play sports. It's a larger, more reliable revenue stream. Until, of course, there are not enough students living on campus or playing sports.
Think of the implications of this job advertisement:
"As part of Western University's Online and Blended Academic Continuity Strategy for 2020-21, the Centre for Teaching and Learning is hiring a team of 11 Instructional Designers and 2 eLearning and Curriculum Specialists on temporary, one-year full-time contracts. Incumbents may work remotely for the duration of the contract and need not move to London, ON."
Quote from: bacardiandlime on April 22, 2020, 03:49:44 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2020, 06:59:55 AM
Let's face it: with huge lectures, tutorials delivered by TAs, and so on, there are lots of situations where the "face-to-face" description of classes is barely relevant.
This is true if the only F2F element considered is teacher-student. But there's a lot of social and cultural capital that comes with being F2F with peers too (even making friends in the back row of that large lecture theater).
One of the earliest pieces of advice that I got as a teacher (I was a PhD candidate, teaching my own section in a gateway course) was that a primary objective was to have the students bond; If they bonded against me, that was fine.
Quote from: bacardiandlime on April 22, 2020, 03:49:44 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2020, 06:59:55 AM
Let's face it: with huge lectures, tutorials delivered by TAs, and so on, there are lots of situations where the "face-to-face" description of classes is barely relevant.
This is true if the only F2F element considered is teacher-student. But there's a lot of social and cultural capital that comes with being F2F with peers too (even making friends in the back row of that large lecture theater).
That's an interesting point. I'd be curious to know if anyone has studied that. A couple of things come to mind:
- The value of interaction is going to vary a lot by class; in some of my classes, I made friends like that, while in others I didn't connect with anyone.
- The value of interaction is going to vary a lot by student; some interact with peope around them, while some always sit alone.
All of that has to be weighed against the value of asynchronous online lectures with the ability to pause, replay, etc. as I stated earlier.
My guess is that which works better, and how much, will depend on the student, but it would be fascinating to research.
I suspect that I'm a much better teacher in my online classes. In a face-to-face class, students frequently come up with something I hadn't anticipated, and I get that deer-in-the-headlights feeling — time stops, the brain has completely stopped functioning, and I'm desperately searching around for my ability to speak. Later on I thunk myself in the forehead — "Why didn't I point out that ...?" I also have a terrible sense of whether the material I've planned for the class is going to last the right amount of time. Half the time the hour has ended and we've only covered 10% of the material; the other half, we've covered all of it by twenty minutes in and I'm desperately spinning out the discussion. I think the students probably don't notice how I'm having to stage manage everything on the spur of the moment, trying to make it look as if it was all planned ahead, and as if my brain seizing up is me thinking profoundly about their deep questions. But it's not optimum.
Teaching online — which I do asynchronously — I finally feel as if I can actually get down what I want to say, and respond in discussions with observations that actually advance the discussion, instead of whatever I can scrape up in my brain. I know a lot of instructors really appreciate the energy and dynamics of a live classroom, and I see their point. But I have to say that for me, online teaching has some real advantages. Which is handy, considering our current situation.
This is a press release from SNHU, but worth reading: https://www.snhu.edu/about-us/newsroom/2020/04/full-tuition-scholarships-for-incoming-freshmen (https://www.snhu.edu/about-us/newsroom/2020/04/full-tuition-scholarships-for-incoming-freshmen).
Quote from: Hegemony on April 24, 2020, 04:33:51 AM
I suspect that I'm a much better teacher in my online classes. In a face-to-face class, students frequently come up with something I hadn't anticipated, and I get that deer-in-the-headlights feeling — time stops, the brain has completely stopped functioning, and I'm desperately searching around for my ability to speak. Later on I thunk myself in the forehead — "Why didn't I point out that ...?" I also have a terrible sense of whether the material I've planned for the class is going to last the right amount of time. Half the time the hour has ended and we've only covered 10% of the material; the other half, we've covered all of it by twenty minutes in and I'm desperately spinning out the discussion. I think the students probably don't notice how I'm having to stage manage everything on the spur of the moment, trying to make it look as if it was all planned ahead, and as if my brain seizing up is me thinking profoundly about their deep questions. But it's not optimum.
Teaching online — which I do asynchronously — I finally feel as if I can actually get down what I want to say, and respond in discussions with observations that actually advance the discussion, instead of whatever I can scrape up in my brain. I know a lot of instructors really appreciate the energy and dynamics of a live classroom, and I see their point. But I have to say that for me, online teaching has some real advantages. Which is handy, considering our current situation.
Funny, but I feel almost exactly the opposite. I feel a lot of pressure when writing things for a course to be absolutely accurate, when I can be more speculative in a discussion. Also, there are topics that I would broach in a room that I would be much cagier about in an online forum, where tone is so difficult to modulate. I dropped a discussion of racist language in a text this semester, and not just because we were pressed for time.
Also, I'm delighted when students say things that I didn't expect, and take the conversation in a radically different direction. It makes the live process worthwhile.
I can understand where you're coming from; my psyche is just best suited for seminars, I guess.
Quote from: dr_codex on April 24, 2020, 05:43:26 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on April 24, 2020, 04:33:51 AM
I suspect that I'm a much better teacher in my online classes. In a face-to-face class, students frequently come up with something I hadn't anticipated, and I get that deer-in-the-headlights feeling — time stops, the brain has completely stopped functioning, and I'm desperately searching around for my ability to speak. Later on I thunk myself in the forehead — "Why didn't I point out that ...?" I also have a terrible sense of whether the material I've planned for the class is going to last the right amount of time. Half the time the hour has ended and we've only covered 10% of the material; the other half, we've covered all of it by twenty minutes in and I'm desperately spinning out the discussion. I think the students probably don't notice how I'm having to stage manage everything on the spur of the moment, trying to make it look as if it was all planned ahead, and as if my brain seizing up is me thinking profoundly about their deep questions. But it's not optimum.
Teaching online — which I do asynchronously — I finally feel as if I can actually get down what I want to say, and respond in discussions with observations that actually advance the discussion, instead of whatever I can scrape up in my brain. I know a lot of instructors really appreciate the energy and dynamics of a live classroom, and I see their point. But I have to say that for me, online teaching has some real advantages. Which is handy, considering our current situation.
Funny, but I feel almost exactly the opposite. I feel a lot of pressure when writing things for a course to be absolutely accurate, when I can be more speculative in a discussion. Also, there are topics that I would broach in a room that I would be much cagier about in an online forum, where tone is so difficult to modulate. I dropped a discussion of racist language in a text this semester, and not just because we were pressed for time.
Also, I'm delighted when students say things that I didn't expect, and take the conversation in a radically different direction. It makes the live process worthwhile.
I can understand where you're coming from; my psyche is just best suited for seminars, I guess.
I suppose that brings up the question of synchronous vs. asynchronous classes in online education. I've had experience of both as a student. The asynchronous classes were much more convenient for scheduling purposes, of course, and weren't as subject to being crippled by technical glitches. But the synchronous classes often benefited a lot from the real-time discussion and interaction.
Quote from: apl68 on April 24, 2020, 07:55:13 AM
I suppose that brings up the question of synchronous vs. asynchronous classes in online education. I've had experience of both as a student. The asynchronous classes were much more convenient for scheduling purposes, of course, and weren't as subject to being crippled by technical glitches. But the synchronous classes often benefited a lot from the real-time discussion and interaction.
The mountains of anecdata that come out of this should help to identify the places where each format (synchronous or asynchronous) works best. And how discipline-specific it is. (or not)
Does anyone here prefer synchronous remote instruction? If so, could you provide details as to your class types, class sizes, student type, etc...
Quote from: Aster on April 24, 2020, 05:44:32 PM
Does anyone here prefer synchronous remote instruction?
Hell no. I have enough trouble with screen freeze and audio glitches during one-on-one student meetings over skype and zoom.
I'm LOVING putting stuff on BB for students to peruse at their leisure, and having the discussion (in a blackboard forum). I also don't need to worry about my students (some who live in different countries) being in 10+ different timezones.
Quote from: Aster on April 24, 2020, 05:44:32 PM
Does anyone here prefer synchronous remote instruction? If so, could you provide details as to your class types, class sizes, student type, etc...
Not me. But I think I
would like it for small, upper-level classes or grad classes (mine are all 35+ first-year classes). I'll be popping in as a guest in a friend's grad class on Monday, so we'll see how that goes. I can report back. I expect it's just fine (if not as good as face-to-face) for groups which are doing the work, and for which you don't have to work too hard to get them contributing.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 25, 2020, 01:42:25 PM
Quote from: Aster on April 24, 2020, 05:44:32 PM
Does anyone here prefer synchronous remote instruction? If so, could you provide details as to your class types, class sizes, student type, etc...
Not me. But I think I would like it for small, upper-level classes or grad classes (mine are all 35+ first-year classes). I'll be popping in as a guest in a friend's grad class on Monday, so we'll see how that goes. I can report back. I expect it's just fine (if not as good as face-to-face) for groups which are doing the work, and for which you don't have to work too hard to get them contributing.
I had been planning to do this in the Fall, for a small grad class, in part to address student complaints that they were getting little out of asynchronous distance learning. This semester was good preparation, and gave me a lot of insight about what can go wrong.
Quote from: Aster on April 24, 2020, 05:44:32 PM
Does anyone here prefer synchronous remote instruction? If so, could you provide details as to your class types, class sizes, student type, etc...
I use a combination in my classes. Asynchronous for most of the class, with small "conference" sessions for groups of no more than 5-6 throughout the semester. That lets me hit most of the students individually (enough) to build a relationship so that when we discuss things asynchronously I have a better understanding of their projects.
I'm at a public community college and most of my students are low-income minority students with spotty (at best) access to wifi and technology, as well as chaotic households and work-loads. I don't think there's any way I could corral all 40 students per class (yes, my load is that large) into any synchronous online class meeting... and I think it would honestly cruel to grade my students based on their (in)ability to participate that way.
Instead, I have been recording my videos over my usual PowerPoints & lecture materials (including some scanned hand-written diagrams) using screencastify, then uploading it to YouTube in an unlisted class thread. That way, my students can watch the lectures at any time and leave comments (or just email me) if they have any questions. It's a system that's worked pretty well, since at least half the class has watched videos (based on word-count) and several students have posted comments asking for more info across 15 or so videos.
It isn't a perfect system and I really miss the fun of lecturing in front of a lively class... but it'll do for now, I guess. Plus, if I ever teach the class online again, I'll always have these videos to go back to -- so future prep work will decrease.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 25, 2020, 01:42:25 PM
Quote from: Aster on April 24, 2020, 05:44:32 PM
Does anyone here prefer synchronous remote instruction? If so, could you provide details as to your class types, class sizes, student type, etc...
Not me. But I think I would like it for small, upper-level classes or grad classes (mine are all 35+ first-year classes). I'll be popping in as a guest in a friend's grad class on Monday, so we'll see how that goes. I can report back. I expect it's just fine (if not as good as face-to-face) for groups which are doing the work, and for which you don't have to work too hard to get them contributing.
Just popping back in to say that my experience was really positive. But it was (1) with graduate students, who (2) were prepared, and (3) were few in number (we were 13 altogether). I think I'd give it a try for small upper-level courses, or at least build the synchronous component in in some significant fashion. I also think that more use could be made of the chat function, so that students can interact with each other in real time, raise issues, point to relevant external material, coordinate their attacks on the instructor, etc. Or, indeed, just ask questions via the chat, which might be easier for shy undergrads.
But I'm pretty skeptical that I could approximate that experience in my classes, which are all 35+ first-year courses. I'm sure some people can do it, but I clearly don't have the skills--or the motivation, at this point--to make it work even half-decently under those conditions.
Perspectives.
I have a faculty member receiving complaints about "not teaching" because she is NOT doing synchronous class meetings. Students are complaining that she isn't posting anything and they don't know what is going on.
So I check. 10 Asynchronous lectures to make up for 8 f2f meetings, plus readings, workshops, and online video presentations. Hmm, that's weird.
So I reach out to some student in the class I know and they LOVE the way the class is going - great content, work on your own schedule, professor is very responsive with questions etc etc.
Even if you do it well from your perspective (or if you think you are dropping all the balls), students are going to see things from their own particular POV, and there is not much you can do about it under these circumstances.
Quote from: FishProf on April 28, 2020, 04:35:39 AM
Perspectives.
I have a faculty member receiving complaints about "not teaching" because she is NOT doing synchronous class meetings. Students are complaining that she isn't posting anything and they don't know what is going on.
So I check. 10 Asynchronous lectures to make up for 8 f2f meetings, plus readings, workshops, and online video presentations. Hmm, that's weird.
So I reach out to some student in the class I know and they LOVE the way the class is going - great content, work on your own schedule, professor is very responsive with questions etc etc.
Even if you do it well from your perspective (or if you think you are dropping all the balls), students are going to see things from their own particular POV, and there is not much you can do about it under these circumstances.
I certainly feel like I'm dropping the ball this semester, so this is helpful. I've realized how much of the teaching experience for me is bound up in the anxiety and experience of actually teaching. Before class, I'm worried about being ready for class, during class I have an adrenaline surge and after class I feel tired. Even when class doesn't go particularly well, or I think I didn't do a good job, I still feel like I went to work. I wonder if some students feel the same way. Getting out of bed, putting on your pants, getting to campus and sitting down in a classroom feels like something happened in a way that opening up your computer and seeing a lecture doesn't.
Quote from: FishProf on April 28, 2020, 04:35:39 AM
Perspectives.
I have a faculty member receiving complaints about "not teaching" because she is NOT doing synchronous class meetings. Students are complaining that she isn't posting anything and they don't know what is going on.
So I check. 10 Asynchronous lectures to make up for 8 f2f meetings, plus readings, workshops, and online video presentations. Hmm, that's weird.
So I reach out to some student in the class I know and they LOVE the way the class is going - great content, work on your own schedule, professor is very responsive with questions etc etc.
Even if you do it well from your perspective (or if you think you are dropping all the balls), students are going to see things from their own particular POV, and there is not much you can do about it under these circumstances.
This may be a genuine technology problem for the students who are complaining that the professor is not posting anything. I teach a planned online course, with a mixture of videos, text, etc. Every semester, I have a few students who self-report that they did not realize that there were videos, because you need to allow "permission" for the kaltura videos to be visible in the Canvas site. This, along with the "make certain that class announcements are forwarded to your most-used email address", are part of my frustrations in trying to reach students in an online format.
Quote from: FishProf on April 28, 2020, 04:35:39 AM
[. . .]
students are going to see things from their own particular POV, and there is not much you can do about it under these circumstances.
Often that POV is "the education part of college means sitting in a classroom being lectured at while I sit there doing nothing." Exercising self-direction and independent effort is not part of the definition of learning or teaching.
Quote from: spork on April 28, 2020, 06:10:08 AM
Quote from: FishProf on April 28, 2020, 04:35:39 AM
[. . .]
students are going to see things from their own particular POV, and there is not much you can do about it under these circumstances.
Often that POV is "the education part of college means sitting in a classroom being lectured at while I sit there doing nothing." Exercising self-direction and independent effort is not part of the definition of learning or teaching.
There was a study comparing active learning to regular lectures which found that students learned more from active learning, but
felt they learned more from regular lectures, since it wasn't so HAAAARD.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 28, 2020, 06:49:16 AM
Quote from: spork on April 28, 2020, 06:10:08 AM
Quote from: FishProf on April 28, 2020, 04:35:39 AM
[. . .]
students are going to see things from their own particular POV, and there is not much you can do about it under these circumstances.
Often that POV is "the education part of college means sitting in a classroom being lectured at while I sit there doing nothing." Exercising self-direction and independent effort is not part of the definition of learning or teaching.
There was a study comparing active learning to regular lectures which found that students learned more from active learning, but felt they learned more from regular lectures, since it wasn't so HAAAARD.
Regardless of lecture quality, students who don't take notes during a lecture, don't read outside of class, and don't know how to identify important information are going to be displeased if suddenly classroom lectures go away.
Quote from: spork on April 28, 2020, 08:21:23 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 28, 2020, 06:49:16 AM
Quote from: spork on April 28, 2020, 06:10:08 AM
Quote from: FishProf on April 28, 2020, 04:35:39 AM
[. . .]
students are going to see things from their own particular POV, and there is not much you can do about it under these circumstances.
Often that POV is "the education part of college means sitting in a classroom being lectured at while I sit there doing nothing." Exercising self-direction and independent effort is not part of the definition of learning or teaching.
There was a study comparing active learning to regular lectures which found that students learned more from active learning, but felt they learned more from regular lectures, since it wasn't so HAAAARD.
Regardless of lecture quality, students who don't take notes during a lecture, don't read outside of class, and don't know how to identify important information are going to be displeased if suddenly classroom lectures go away.
I'll stop every once in a while and tell them how to describe the concept in their notes. I'll also tell them how they should be studying. When I started teaching, I thought my job was to provide students with an audio presentation of a textbook. When I did that, I had my best evaluations, and not many students blamed me when they did poorly in the class. The more of the "micromanaging" I do to ensure they're actually learning, the lower my evaluations go. Good thing the tenured have the opportunity to teach in the way they think is best.
Oops: This was intended as a reply to marshwiggle.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 28, 2020, 06:49:16 AM
Quote from: spork on April 28, 2020, 06:10:08 AM
Quote from: FishProf on April 28, 2020, 04:35:39 AM
[. . .]
students are going to see things from their own particular POV, and there is not much you can do about it under these circumstances.
Often that POV is "the education part of college means sitting in a classroom being lectured at while I sit there doing nothing." Exercising self-direction and independent effort is not part of the definition of learning or teaching.
There was a study comparing active learning to regular lectures which found that students learned more from active learning, but felt they learned more from regular lectures, since it wasn't so HAAAARD.
Reason #1 I waited until after tenure to try flipping my class.
"It doesn't make sense to pay 20 grand to sit at my computer at home and take online courses," he said. "You can get the same education from a community college." (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/01/us/coronavirus-college-enrollment.html)
Evidence that the product many colleges and universities have been selling is not a post-secondary education.
Similar editorial, about tuition refunds:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/01/your-money/college-tuition-refunds-coronavirus.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/01/your-money/college-tuition-refunds-coronavirus.html).
The author fails to list "recreational experience" as one of the reasons people attend college.
It fascinates me how many of these articles (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/01/us/coronavirus-college-enrollment.html) bury the lede:
Quote
The coronavirus pandemic hit at a time when American higher education, which employs about three million people nationwide, was already suffering from a host of financial problems. Many liberal arts colleges have struggled to meet enrollment goals in recent years because of rising tuition costs, concerns about student debt and a shrinking population of young people.
The "shrinking population of young people" is THE issue; the other things are consequences of that. And it's the thing that no legislation or policy can "fix". But that's exactly why it's not the issue people want to mention first.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/05/scott-galloway-future-of-college.html
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 12, 2020, 01:35:14 PM
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/05/scott-galloway-future-of-college.html
A couple of interesting quotes from the article:
Quote
There's the education certification and then there's the experience part of college. The experience part of it is down to zero, and the education part has been dramatically reduced. You get a degree that, over time, will be reduced in value as we realize it's not the same to be a graduate of a liberal-arts college if you never went to campus.
I'd be curious to hear the writer's opinion of STEM and professional educations.
Quote
I think a lot of young people, especially boys, could use another year of seasoning experience, work experience, or some sort of service. A lot of these kids just aren't ready for the competition and the kind of intense environment that is college.
To me there's nothing unique to the covid situation to make this more true than it always is. If 20 or 30% of the students who come now worked or did something else for a year or two first they'd probably be much better off.
I pointed out to an acquaintance who sent me this article that Galloway repeats many of the same points made in Kevin Carey's "The Siege of Academe," which was published in 2012:
https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/septoct-2012/the-siege-of-academe/ (https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/septoct-2012/the-siege-of-academe/).
Entire Cal State system will be online-only for fall semester: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/12/us/cal-state-online-classes.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/12/us/cal-state-online-classes.html).
And no NCAA sports at these universities either: https://goccaa.org/news/2020/5/12/general-ccaa-suspends-ncaa-competition-for-fall-2020.aspx (https://goccaa.org/news/2020/5/12/general-ccaa-suspends-ncaa-competition-for-fall-2020.aspx).
Quote from: spork on May 12, 2020, 05:29:14 PM
I pointed out to an acquaintance who sent me this article that Galloway repeats many of the same points made in Kevin Carey's "The Siege of Academe," which was published in 2012:
https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/septoct-2012/the-siege-of-academe/ (https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/septoct-2012/the-siege-of-academe/).
Ironically, written from the "
Corona Heights neighborhood of San Francisco". Prescient or what???
General chemistry labs are being reexamined https://cen.acs.org/education/undergraduate-education/Questioning-value-general-chemistry-labs/98/i18?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=CEN
Quote from: polly_mer on May 15, 2020, 03:54:14 PM
General chemistry labs are being reexamined https://cen.acs.org/education/undergraduate-education/Questioning-value-general-chemistry-labs/98/i18?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=CEN
From the article:
Quote
Oftentimes, general chemistry labs teach what educational experts refer to as "cookbook chemistry"—prescribed experiments in which students follow a set of instructions to achieve a particular outcome. Research backing up the assumed educational benefits of these labs is limited at best, critics say.
You could replace "chemistry" with any other discipline and it would be just as true.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 15, 2020, 04:04:36 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on May 15, 2020, 03:54:14 PM
General chemistry labs are being reexamined https://cen.acs.org/education/undergraduate-education/Questioning-value-general-chemistry-labs/98/i18?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=CEN
From the article:
Quote
Oftentimes, general chemistry labs teach what educational experts refer to as "cookbook chemistry"—prescribed experiments in which students follow a set of instructions to achieve a particular outcome. Research backing up the assumed educational benefits of these labs is limited at best, critics say.
You could replace "chemistry" with any other discipline and it would be just as true.
The glaring problem that exists in undergraduate education, at least at the type of university I work at, is in skill development, or lack of it. And I'm classifying "thinking like a scientist when in the chemistry lab" as a skill. I see a very small percentage of students who, for example, study piano in a way that's going to result in an improvement in their ability. These few students practice, practice, practice while getting some coaching, and in the end, are better piano players than when they arrived on campus. Same situation with foreign language study. A few put in the time and effort and acquire greater proficiency. The rest take whatever is required to check a box and move on. As for the courses that I teach, the few students who started as acceptable or even good writers at the beginning of the semester don't become spectacular writers by the end of the course. And the ones who started as bad writers remain bad writers. This is true whether the students are in the major or not. And while it's possible to make the argument that students' higher-order "understanding" or "knowledge" of a subject might have increased over the semester, the only way I can attempt to assess this is through their writing. By that measure, nothing significant has happened. It seems immensely inefficient in time and money.
This question is addressed in an article in the NY Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/education/learning/coronavirus-online-education-college.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage§ion=Education).
The expected hype: "John Rogers, education sector lead at the $5 billion Rise Fund which invests in ed tech. 'That really is the difference-maker. The pace of adoption of those tools will accelerate.'"
The reality: "More than 75 percent said they don't think they're receiving a quality learning experience, according to a survey of nearly 1,300 students by the online exam-prep provider OneClass. "
My colleagues seem mostly in in line with Dartmouth professor Vijay Govindarajan "Faculty will ask themselves, 'What part of what we just did can be substituted with technology and what part can be complemented by technology to transform higher education?' "
Quote from: spork on May 15, 2020, 05:24:10 PM
The glaring problem that exists in undergraduate education, at least at the type of university I work at, is in skill development, or lack of it. And I'm classifying "thinking like a scientist when in the chemistry lab" as a skill. I see a very small percentage of students who, for example, study piano in a way that's going to result in an improvement in their ability. These few students practice, practice, practice while getting some coaching, and in the end, are better piano players than when they arrived on campus. Same situation with foreign language study. A few put in the time and effort and acquire greater proficiency. The rest take whatever is required to check a box and move on. As for the courses that I teach, the few students who started as acceptable or even good writers at the beginning of the semester don't become spectacular writers by the end of the course. And the ones who started as bad writers remain bad writers. This is true whether the students are in the major or not. And while it's possible to make the argument that students' higher-order "understanding" or "knowledge" of a subject might have increased over the semester, the only way I can attempt to assess this is through their writing. By that measure, nothing significant has happened. It seems immensely inefficient in time and money.
I put a lot of this down to the "osmosis problem". All kinds of labs, assignments, etc. require students to use some tool or process to complete the lab or assignment, but the
emphasis is on the result. Developing the skill is going to be done by osmosis. But the problem is that the students see the point (understandably) as
getting the thing done. The emphasis suggests the skill is peripheral and relatively unimportant, even though, ironically, the task is often created
in order to develop that skill.
I have
explicit lab exercises of things like using a spreadsheet so that the "result" is clearly just the verification that they managed to complete everything. Most importantly, I've had students from other disciplines tell me later that they're glad they learned how to use spreadsheets and now they use them for their other work.
But to do this, I have to commit the implicit heresy of saying that illustrating one more physics principle in a lab isn't as useful as teaching them how to use a spreadsheet, which doesn't have anything explicitly to do with
physics (GASP!!!).
On the subject of universities (partially) getting out of the leisure/recreation business:
University of Akron is eliminating men's cross country, men's golf and women's tennis teams, which will save $4.4 million or slightly less than 25 percent of the money spent on athletics.
https://gozips.com/news/2020/5/14/general-redesigning-the-univeristy-of-akron-athletics-update.aspx (https://gozips.com/news/2020/5/14/general-redesigning-the-univeristy-of-akron-athletics-update.aspx)
A total of 32 students are affected by the loss of athletics scholarships.
The numbers here are totally insane. $4.4 million spent per year on activities that 32 students participate in when the total enrollment is ~ 25,000 students. And Akron is still funding 17 other athletic programs.
Quote from: spork on May 17, 2020, 02:15:11 AM
On the subject of universities (partially) getting out of the leisure/recreation business:
University of Akron is eliminating men's cross country, men's golf and women's tennis teams, which will save $4.4 million or slightly less than 25 percent of the money spent on athletics.
https://gozips.com/news/2020/5/14/general-redesigning-the-univeristy-of-akron-athletics-update.aspx (https://gozips.com/news/2020/5/14/general-redesigning-the-univeristy-of-akron-athletics-update.aspx)
A total of 32 students are affected by the loss of athletics scholarships.
The numbers here are totally insane. $4.4 million spent per year on activities that 32 students participate in when the total enrollment is ~ 25,000 students. And Akron is still funding 17 other athletic programs.
I think they are honoring the scholarships, actually.
Quote from: Caracal on May 17, 2020, 04:44:54 AM
Quote from: spork on May 17, 2020, 02:15:11 AM
On the subject of universities (partially) getting out of the leisure/recreation business:
University of Akron is eliminating men's cross country, men's golf and women's tennis teams, which will save $4.4 million or slightly less than 25 percent of the money spent on athletics.
https://gozips.com/news/2020/5/14/general-redesigning-the-univeristy-of-akron-athletics-update.aspx (https://gozips.com/news/2020/5/14/general-redesigning-the-univeristy-of-akron-athletics-update.aspx)
A total of 32 students are affected by the loss of athletics scholarships.
The numbers here are totally insane. $4.4 million spent per year on activities that 32 students participate in when the total enrollment is ~ 25,000 students. And Akron is still funding 17 other athletic programs.
I think they are honoring the scholarships, actually.
FAQ (https://www.uakron.edu/redesigning-ua/athletics-faq-05-14-20) page seems to indicate they are honoring the scholarships for one year for incoming students, but not for continuing students
" the current financial situation does not allow the University to be able to continue to offer and provide athletics scholarships to current student athletes in the sports"
" the University is required to provide the agreed upon scholarship to the incoming student athletes"
Quote from: spork on May 17, 2020, 02:15:11 AM
On the subject of universities (partially) getting out of the leisure/recreation business:
University of Akron is eliminating men's cross country, men's golf and women's tennis teams, which will save $4.4 million or slightly less than 25 percent of the money spent on athletics.
https://gozips.com/news/2020/5/14/general-redesigning-the-univeristy-of-akron-athletics-update.aspx (https://gozips.com/news/2020/5/14/general-redesigning-the-univeristy-of-akron-athletics-update.aspx)
A total of 32 students are affected by the loss of athletics scholarships.
The numbers here are totally insane. $4.4 million spent per year on activities that 32 students participate in when the total enrollment is ~ 25,000 students. And Akron is still funding 17 other athletic programs.
spork: there is 0% probability that the $4.4 million cited is accurate. My university did the same same thing several years ago and reported a $400,000 yearly savings. Even that figure was inflated. And, indeed the student athletes' scholarships were honored.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 17, 2020, 08:01:19 AM
Quote from: spork on May 17, 2020, 02:15:11 AM
On the subject of universities (partially) getting out of the leisure/recreation business:
University of Akron is eliminating men's cross country, men's golf and women's tennis teams, which will save $4.4 million or slightly less than 25 percent of the money spent on athletics.
https://gozips.com/news/2020/5/14/general-redesigning-the-univeristy-of-akron-athletics-update.aspx (https://gozips.com/news/2020/5/14/general-redesigning-the-univeristy-of-akron-athletics-update.aspx)
A total of 32 students are affected by the loss of athletics scholarships.
The numbers here are totally insane. $4.4 million spent per year on activities that 32 students participate in when the total enrollment is ~ 25,000 students. And Akron is still funding 17 other athletic programs.
spork: there is 0% probability that the $4.4 million cited is accurate. My university did the same same thing several years ago and reported a $400,000 yearly savings. Even that figure was inflated. And, indeed the student athletes' scholarships were honored.
What do you think Akron is spending annually on athletics, if it's not ~ $19.1 million? And what how much of that would be saved with the elimination of men's cross country, men's golf, and women's tennis, in terms of staff salaries and benefits, administrative costs, and scholarships?
Quote from: onthefringe on May 17, 2020, 08:00:55 AM
Quote from: Caracal on May 17, 2020, 04:44:54 AM
Quote from: spork on May 17, 2020, 02:15:11 AM
On the subject of universities (partially) getting out of the leisure/recreation business:
University of Akron is eliminating men's cross country, men's golf and women's tennis teams, which will save $4.4 million or slightly less than 25 percent of the money spent on athletics.
https://gozips.com/news/2020/5/14/general-redesigning-the-univeristy-of-akron-athletics-update.aspx (https://gozips.com/news/2020/5/14/general-redesigning-the-univeristy-of-akron-athletics-update.aspx)
A total of 32 students are affected by the loss of athletics scholarships.
The numbers here are totally insane. $4.4 million spent per year on activities that 32 students participate in when the total enrollment is ~ 25,000 students. And Akron is still funding 17 other athletic programs.
I think they are honoring the scholarships, actually.
FAQ (https://www.uakron.edu/redesigning-ua/athletics-faq-05-14-20) page seems to indicate they are honoring the scholarships for one year for incoming students, but not for continuing students
" the current financial situation does not allow the University to be able to continue to offer and provide athletics scholarships to current student athletes in the sports"
" the University is required to provide the agreed upon scholarship to the incoming student athletes"
Oh, apologies, I think I saw something different for another school?
Quote from: spork on May 17, 2020, 09:05:01 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 17, 2020, 08:01:19 AM
Quote from: spork on May 17, 2020, 02:15:11 AM
On the subject of universities (partially) getting out of the leisure/recreation business:
University of Akron is eliminating men's cross country, men's golf and women's tennis teams, which will save $4.4 million or slightly less than 25 percent of the money spent on athletics.
https://gozips.com/news/2020/5/14/general-redesigning-the-univeristy-of-akron-athletics-update.aspx (https://gozips.com/news/2020/5/14/general-redesigning-the-univeristy-of-akron-athletics-update.aspx)
A total of 32 students are affected by the loss of athletics scholarships.
The numbers here are totally insane. $4.4 million spent per year on activities that 32 students participate in when the total enrollment is ~ 25,000 students. And Akron is still funding 17 other athletic programs.
spork: there is 0% probability that the $4.4 million cited is accurate. My university did the same same thing several years ago and reported a $400,000 yearly savings. Even that figure was inflated. And, indeed the student athletes' scholarships were honored.
What do you think Akron is spending annually on athletics, if it's not ~ $19.1 million? And what how much of that would be saved with the elimination of men's cross country, men's golf, and women's tennis, in terms of staff salaries and benefits, administrative costs, and scholarships?
I don't doubt Akron is spending way too much on athletics. I think virtually every D-1 program is, mine included.
What I'm saying is those are the programs that cost the least, in every way. Less travel cost, less in coaches' salaries, small number of athletes, and nothing in facility maintenance.
The savings cost is inflated with the intent of making the administration look good as it cuts academic programs, and Akron is cutting a bunch.
Having been raised in Ohio, and done my B.A. at OSU, I'm wondering when they're going to start dismantling the big football machine.
(Probably never.)
I heard at one point that the claim it supported the rest of the campus was backwards from the balance sheet side: it created a lot of interest and gave kids with some athletic ability a path towards more education (not saying what level that was at...I had my doubts...many seemed to do Business degrees and those degrees seemed fudged to those of us whose department building (that had finally moved out of the former laundry building into a refurbished museum building) was next to the spiffy, shiny new Business school building...certain connections were suspected, there...) but the sports program actually cost the university more than it brought in, even after alumni donations (mostly earmarked, some made to specific students in-kind) were considered.
So...pardon my cynicism.
I don't recall Akron having a notable football program--to their credit, in my mind.
M.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 17, 2020, 09:29:09 AM
[. . . ]
The savings cost is inflated with the intent of making the administration look good as it cuts academic programs, and Akron is cutting a bunch.
We are definitely in agreement about what is going on at Akron. And at other Ohio universities. I'm reminded of the recent discussion about unbundling on an another thread:
Quote from: spork on March 30, 2020, 01:18:39 PM
[. . . ]
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 29, 2020, 06:13:27 AM
The problem with bundling is that is allows the decisions makers to impose a subsidy for their pet rpojects on everyone. Cable bundles would include a few popular channels plus a whole bunch of really niche things. Libertarians oppose all kionds of taxes for this reason. At least with governements, if they spend money on programs most people think are frivilous voters can boot them out of office. However in an institution, students get no such say over what their bundled fees subsidize. The employees who make those choices are untouchable.
[. . .]
Similarly, universities across the world operate quite well without internally-funded athletic programs. The USA is the outlier, with the majority of money spent on intercollegiate athletics acting as a subsidy for monopolistic professional sports leagues formed of teams owned by billionaires.
I wonder if now is the time when prospective students and their parents are finally asking themselves "What is the better value, the university where the football and basketball coaching staff collectively gets paid $15 million per year, or the university where the equivalent amount of money is spent on academic programs?"
Quote from: spork on May 17, 2020, 02:15:11 AM
On the subject of universities (partially) getting out of the leisure/recreation business:
Leisure/recreation business is spot on!
Quote from: spork on May 17, 2020, 02:15:11 AM
University of Akron is eliminating men's cross country, men's golf and women's tennis teams, which will save $4.4 million or slightly less than 25 percent of the money spent on athletics.
...
The numbers here are totally insane. $4.4 million spent per year on activities that 32 students participate in when the total enrollment is ~ 25,000 students. And Akron is still funding 17 other athletic programs.
32 students participating is probably right. Have you seen student attendance at higher ed leisure/recreation events? In many cases, it's just a few, if any, watching the "
studentathletes." Even football and basketball at some U's have few spectators.
Quote from: spork on May 17, 2020, 10:04:47 AM
I wonder if now is the time when prospective students and their parents are finally asking themselves "What is the better value, the university where the football and basketball coaching staff collectively gets paid $15 million per year, or the university where the equivalent amount of money is spent on academic programs?"
$15M is more than the whole budget of a college like Super Dinky.
The question I see more people asking is what are we getting for the money and is it really worth it?
A number of our adjuncts may be given the kiss-off. We have one retirement this summer and at least one more on the horizon next spring. As would be expected, no new hires have even been talked about.
Union negotiators claim that admin is trying to use the crisis as an excuse to attenuate the next 3 year contract----but the union is always excitable and combative, and the admin is always crying poverty during negotiations. These days it is, let's say, a little easier to believe the poverty angle (both president and provost took voluntary pay cuts without a lot of obvious appreciation from faculty)
Long and short, it looks like we are going to be a much leaner animal after this is all over with a great many more faculty teaching lower div.
Are any universities taking a hard look at the need for so much mid- and upper-level administration?
My U is not. Cuts are being visited on adjuncts, office staff, department operating budgets, anything but administrative lines. And we are one of the most top-heavy, over-administered universities in the nation. (This was pointed out clearly by an auditing firm we hired, and subsequently ignored.)
Quote from: bento on May 18, 2020, 04:57:06 AM
Are any universities taking a hard look at the need for so much mid- and upper-level administration?
My U is not. Cuts are being visited on adjuncts, office staff, department operating budgets, anything but administrative lines. And we are one of the most top-heavy, over-administered universities in the nation. (This was pointed out clearly by an auditing firm we hired, and subsequently ignored.)
"Need" for administration is harder to define for most institutions than projecting enrollment and cutting contingent (or even TT/T) faculty down to the calculated need. When the enrollment is higher than expected, hiring excellent replacement faculty in many fields is a matter of picking up the phone and saying, "Would you like a job for the next/current term?"
It's inefficient to use faculty and low-level administrators to do the tasks of office staff, but it's straightforward to have those competent people pick up many of the day-to-day tasks that are individually necessary (e.g., I've watched the provost make copies for his meeting in an hour). Having students do much of their own data entry for registration-related/financial-aid tasks means fewer people are needed as basic clerks elsewhere in the institution. Hiring fantastic office staff is hard. Hiring competent enough people to take over day-to-day tasks is again fairly easy and little more than submitting a job ad this week and making calls next week.
However, hiring experienced, knowledgeable, good mid- and upper-level administration on short notice is a much harder task. Most institutions will not have a recent audit indicating where they can just cut administrative lines and be OK. Mid-level administration is usually where the institutional excess capacity resides that can be redeployed to keep abreast of an evolving situation, run scenarios, and have the bazillion discussions with peers at other institutions doing the same thing to come up with plans and decisions.
It's true the institution probably doesn't really need an assistant to the associate dean for fun, games, and toys as a general matter. However, if the institution only has exactly enough people to do the day-to-day running of the institution along with a president, provost, CFO, and VP of enrollment/financial aid to do the longer-term strategy, then there isn't any slack to stand up an ad hoc Covid Institutional Response Committee (CIRC) to get a workable plan in place in a timely manner.
It's true that we couldn't have predicted this Covid situation 10 years ago. However, most institutions will deal with unforeseen-in-the-details situations frequently enough that they need the extra capacity to be able to stand up extra committees and have people working nearly full-time on those committees who can safely not do their normal job for weeks/months.
In the situation of too few mid-level administrators who can safely be redeployed, the institution ends up with a "plan" of
Quote from: spork on May 17, 2020, 11:19:26 AM
All faculty here have been directed to submit, through their departments, a plan for the fall semester that includes explanations of how we are going to:
- Maintain 6' separation between all students and the instructor in classrooms with a seating capacity of, for example, 35 students, in courses that already have 35 students registered.
- Teach all courses on campus and online, simultaneously, to accommodate students who become ill or who have pre-existing health conditions.
- Run all courses 100% online if the campus needs to be emptied out after the semester begins.
All full- and part-time faculty members have been given three days to submit this information.
At competent places, the CIRC will have dealt with the spacing for classrooms and labs by discussion with relevant parties to double/triple check a good plan developed in conjunction with peers. For example, my non-academic employer has changed the configurations of all rooms other than personal offices to make 6' distancing easy on everyone. Academic institutions can do something similar since many people use most rooms over the course of an operational week.
At competent places, the CIRC would again have been abreast of the ongoing public discussions of pros/cons/logistics of alternative instruction delivery, including the possibility of transitioning during the term, and then presented locally feasible options to departments to discuss and send back their decisions if the plan includes any decisions. Competent administrations do not expect individual faculty members to figure it all out on their own.
Delegating everything to individual faculty on short notice in areas where the faculty will not be experts or even necessarily up on the current-as-of-last-month best practices is a failure of administration on many levels. Choosing wrong as a CIRC based on incomplete information is possible, but choosing to let the faculty individually just sort out a plan that has to be coordinated across the institution is going to go wrong enough that all experienced administrators should know that's not anywhere near the top 10 ways to get a workable plan.
Quote from: bento on May 18, 2020, 04:57:06 AM
Are any universities taking a hard look at the need for so much mid- and upper-level administration?
My U is not. Cuts are being visited on adjuncts, office staff, department operating budgets, anything but administrative lines. And we are one of the most top-heavy, over-administered universities in the nation. (This was pointed out clearly by an auditing firm we hired, and subsequently ignored.)
+1
Quote from: Cheerful on May 18, 2020, 08:11:03 AM
Quote from: bento on May 18, 2020, 04:57:06 AM
Are any universities taking a hard look at the need for so much mid- and upper-level administration?
My U is not. Cuts are being visited on adjuncts, office staff, department operating budgets, anything but administrative lines. And we are one of the most top-heavy, over-administered universities in the nation. (This was pointed out clearly by an auditing firm we hired, and subsequently ignored.)
+1
So what would a true examination look like?
How will you plan for extra capacity as part of normal operations?
Why do you think administration is a more worthy target than just flat out not doing certain current academic practices that can be eliminated? Cutting a three-person office for now is going to be savings than gutting the adjunct budget permanently by changing general education.
Quote from: polly_mer on May 18, 2020, 09:22:18 AM
[. . . ]
Why do you think administration is a more worthy target than just flat out not doing certain current academic practices that can be eliminated? Cutting a three-person office for now is going to be savings than gutting the adjunct budget permanently by changing general education.
Hence the title of this thread.
Eliminating three positions of Assistant Director of X, Y, and Z to the Assistant Dean of Q to the Vice President of Student Affairs is fiddling while Rome burns when the question that needs to be asked, for example, is "What happens if we get rid of Student Affairs entirely?"
Trustees have apparently projected that my university will become insolvent in eighteen months if the 2020-21 academic year is entirely online. The response? A retirement incentive of 90 days' pay and health insurance benefits at subsidized rates for the subsequent two years. Sorry, that ain't going to solve the problem.
Quote from: spork on May 18, 2020, 10:14:22 AM
[ the question that needs to be asked, for example, is "What happens if we get rid of Student Affairs entirely?"
Students are important to our business model. If they stop having affairs, we're sunk!
Social distancing in the residence halls and online courses both have very worrisome consequences for student affairs. We need some administrators who can facilitate things.
Quote from: Hibush on May 18, 2020, 10:33:25 AM
Quote from: spork on May 18, 2020, 10:14:22 AM
[ the question that needs to be asked, for example, is "What happens if we get rid of Student Affairs entirely?"
Students are important to our business model. If they stop having affairs, we're sunk!
Social distancing in the residence halls and online courses both have very worrisome consequences for student affairs. We need some administrators who can facilitate things.
Yes, schools have to think about these things. At Alma Mater the resulting decline in the awarding of Mrs. degrees would seriously damage the school's popularity with prospective students and their families.
Quote from: apl68 on May 18, 2020, 10:56:51 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 18, 2020, 10:33:25 AM
Quote from: spork on May 18, 2020, 10:14:22 AM
[ the question that needs to be asked, for example, is "What happens if we get rid of Student Affairs entirely?"
Students are important to our business model. If they stop having affairs, we're sunk!
Social distancing in the residence halls and online courses both have very worrisome consequences for student affairs. We need some administrators who can facilitate things.
Yes, schools have to think about these things. At Alma Mater the resulting decline in the awarding of Mrs. degrees would seriously damage the school's popularity with prospective students and their families.
Having taken courses at Wellesley College, I resemble that remark!
To be fair though I have to admit that marrying a Bryn Mawr graduate turned out to be a terrible mistake.
Quote from: Cheerful on May 18, 2020, 08:11:03 AM
Quote from: bento on May 18, 2020, 04:57:06 AM
Are any universities taking a hard look at the need for so much mid- and upper-level administration?
My U is not. Cuts are being visited on adjuncts, office staff, department operating budgets, anything but administrative lines. And we are one of the most top-heavy, over-administered universities in the nation. (This was pointed out clearly by an auditing firm we hired, and subsequently ignored.)
+1
At a distance, it's so hard to tell. The PR is that we are sharing the load, but it's become blindingly obvious that we need to hire in some key areas (distance learning and development come to mind). Finding a bright bulb who could put together an attractive early retirement package would be pretty close to the top of my list if I were doing the figures.
IHE op-ed writer weighs in: https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/blogs/education-time-corona/what-will-life-be-post-covid-colleges-and-universities (https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/blogs/education-time-corona/what-will-life-be-post-covid-colleges-and-universities).
Very optimistic, utopian message in this IHE article. But even the authors allow that, at least in general, ol education just ain't as good. And, of course, well, the 'online internships' they suggest many kids will be doing this summer, who thinks that the average kid is going to get one of these, as opposed to this being merely an ol version of the increasing tendency of wealthy families to use unpaid internships as a way of getting additional gatekeeping access for their kids?
BTW, blackboards caused riots in the 19c? HMMMMM....
ASU expands summer online curriculum and tuition revenue from students enrolled at other institutions:
https://asunow.asu.edu/20200519-sun-devil-life-summer-enrollment-sets-asu-record (https://asunow.asu.edu/20200519-sun-devil-life-summer-enrollment-sets-asu-record).
New York Times op-ed:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/25/opinion/online-college-coronavirus.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/25/opinion/online-college-coronavirus.html).
Quote from: spork on May 26, 2020, 10:13:40 AM
New York Times op-ed:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/25/opinion/online-college-coronavirus.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/25/opinion/online-college-coronavirus.html).
From the article:
Quote
According to one survey, more than 75 percent of students do not feel they received a quality learning experience after classrooms closed.
Which means about 25% felt they
did receive a quality learning experience after classrooms closed. Given the speed of response, that's pretty impressive. By Fall, with months to prepare, things should be a lot better.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 26, 2020, 10:24:31 AM
Quote from: spork on May 26, 2020, 10:13:40 AM
New York Times op-ed:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/25/opinion/online-college-coronavirus.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/25/opinion/online-college-coronavirus.html).
From the article:
Quote
According to one survey, more than 75 percent of students do not feel they received a quality learning experience after classrooms closed.
Which means about 25% felt they did receive a quality learning experience after classrooms closed. Given the speed of response, that's pretty impressive. By Fall, with months to prepare, things should be a lot better.
The glass is not three-quarters empty, it's one-quarter
full!
None of these articles mention that psychologists and cognitive scientists have known for decades that people are very bad at gauging what they have learned and how they have learned it. Learning requires cognitive effort, which is often perceived as unpleasant, making people's feelings about specific pedagogical methods a very bad way to measure their efficacy. The well-designed studies that I have seen show little to no difference in student academic performance (proxy measurement for learning used by educational systems) between face-to-face and well-designed online courses.
Often the argument I hear against online education is "what about the students who lack internet access?" My reply is always "The $10-$15,000 saved per year by not living on campus is more than enough to purchase a reliable, high-bandwidth internet connection."
Quote from: spork on May 26, 2020, 03:51:36 PM
None of these articles mention that psychologists and cognitive scientists have known for decades that people are very bad at gauging what they have learned and how they have learned it. Learning requires cognitive effort, which is often perceived as unpleasant, making people's feelings about specific pedagogical methods a very bad way to measure their efficacy. The well-designed studies that I have seen show little to no difference in student academic performance (proxy measurement for learning used by educational systems) between face-to-face and well-designed online courses.
Often the argument I hear against online education is "what about the students who lack internet access?" My reply is always "The $10-$15,000 saved per year by not living on campus is more than enough to purchase a reliable, high-bandwidth internet connection."
Neither obviates student perception or the need for the Internet.
A reporter from
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette was given an exclusive access to the president and administrators of Allegheny College, a LAC based in Allegheny Mountain, NW Pennsylvania, as it makes a decision on whether to open for in-class instruction this fall or not. The story is just posted:
https://www.post-gazette.com/news/education/2020/05/31/Allegheny-college-Hilary-Link-COVID-19-fall-semester-reopen-online-Pennsylvania/stories/202005290088
Excerpts containing the college's reopening and safety measures:
Quote
Consensus grew around a plan to establish — as best the college could — that students starting classes are virus-free. It would require what amounted to a funnel. Student move-in — hundreds of them getting into dorms over three-days in August — needed to stretch to two weeks so families trying to social distance would have staggered arrival times and students could undergo repeat COVID-19 testing.
Under the plan worked out, arrivals will take a drive-thru test at the Robertson Athletic Complex — the school's football venue — then move into dorms and self-isolate for three to five days. They will be re-tested before the Aug. 31 start of classes.
Quote
Most — faculty included — saw merit in a shortened in-person semester, free of breaks during which students might leave and be exposed, Provost Ron Cole said.
But faculty also struggled to envision how 15-week courses — science labs among them — could be pared by up to 20% yet still cover material needed to maintain academic integrity.
It had become clear in the spring that remote study put students from poorer households at a disadvantage. Plus, not all rural communities have reliable internet connections, and some students simply cannot afford an extra trip home to another state or nation.
"We are back at the place of inequity and unfairness," Ms. Link told those on the Zoom call.....
Eventually, they settled on a hybrid plan splitting the traditional 15-week semester with 16 credits into a pair of "modules," the first with four courses starting on Aug. 31 and ending the week before Thanksgiving.
Students would finish the courses and take final exams during a three-week "module" in which they would work from home, though some could opt to finish up from their dorms.
For spring semester, the order would be flipped: A remote module would start in January with a single course and a capstone experience, followed by a 12-week on-campus module starting in late February. The plan has the advantage of reducing the campus population during flu season in December, January and February.
Thoughtful approach. Except the flu season doesn't end in February.
Quote from: picard on June 01, 2020, 06:10:01 AM
A reporter from Pittsburgh Post-Gazette was given an exclusive access to the president and administrators of Allegheny College, a LAC based in Allegheny Mountain, NW Pennsylvania, as it makes a decision on whether to open for in-class instruction this fall or not. The story is just posted:
https://www.post-gazette.com/news/education/2020/05/31/Allegheny-college-Hilary-Link-COVID-19-fall-semester-reopen-online-Pennsylvania/stories/202005290088
Excerpts containing the college's reopening and safety measures:
Quote
Consensus grew around a plan to establish — as best the college could — that students starting classes are virus-free. It would require what amounted to a funnel. Student move-in — hundreds of them getting into dorms over three-days in August — needed to stretch to two weeks so families trying to social distance would have staggered arrival times and students could undergo repeat COVID-19 testing.
Under the plan worked out, arrivals will take a drive-thru test at the Robertson Athletic Complex — the school's football venue — then move into dorms and self-isolate for three to five days. They will be re-tested before the Aug. 31 start of classes.
Quote
Most — faculty included — saw merit in a shortened in-person semester, free of breaks during which students might leave and be exposed, Provost Ron Cole said.
Unless students are going to be locked in for the entire "term" and prevented from going home or even off campus, all of the precautions getting them on campus in the first place are kind of useless. And it's hard to imagine such a thing could be legally enforced.
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 01, 2020, 09:31:51 AM
Unless students are going to be locked in for the entire "term" and prevented from going home or even off campus, all of the precautions getting them on campus in the first place are kind of useless. And it's hard to imagine such a thing could be legally enforced.
You're arguing that if you can't eliminate risks entirely, that means there's no point in trying to mitigate them, which doesn't make any sense. Nobody is suggesting that you can make a college campus a bio-secure environment. But it seems pretty self evident that having the entire student body go home for Thanksgiving is more likely to lead to an outbreak on campus then an occasional student going somewhere for the weekend.
Of course, this would only really make much difference for a school where lots of students don't live at home anyway, or live close enough so that they regularly go home on weekends, but the idea that creating a schedule that results in students staying put more could reduce the chance of outbreaks isn't nuts.
I had a conversation with my wife yesterday about the possibility that the pandemic will end habitual ways of doing things that previously no one really thought much about. E.g., telemedicine replacing a lot of in-person appointments with physicians, LPNs, etc. Why continue to go through the aggravation of interrupting one's day to sit in a waiting room with a bunch of sick people, to talk to a doctor who is doing nothing but looking at lab test results? In my case, I doubt I will ever again hold regularly-scheduled office hours in my actual campus office.
But the crux of the conversation involved how one change can lead to a series of additional changes, resulting in a massive overhaul. I used the example of restaurant menus. Restaurants here are resuming dine-in service with single-use menus. I said "This is stupid and won't last; all these restaurants have websites, people can just use their phones to read the menu. Or just put a big blackboard on the wall." That led to the idea that, since the menus are online, and people can make reservations online, why not pre-order and pay for appetizers and entrees so that they are ready within five minutes of being seated? And if that happens, you probably don't need as many wait staff. You could in fact adopt the McDonald's model of customers taking their own food to their tables, just in a fancier environment. In fact I would prefer this given how many times I've seen servers placing plates on the table with their thumbs touching the food.
So now I'm wondering: if one of those higher-ed traditions like in-person office hours disappears except for occasional on-demand appointments, what else happens?
Quote from: spork on June 07, 2020, 02:49:36 PM
So now I'm wondering: if one of those higher-ed traditions like in-person office hours disappears except for occasional on-demand appointments, what else happens?
For labs and tutorials that are just using software, synchronous labs are likely to disappear. Along with me not having to stand around for a zillion hours in labs, I don't have to worry about the tasks being absolutely able to be completed in 2 hours; I don't have to worry if some network problem takes the system down for 1/2 hour during a lab, etc.
Quote from: spork on June 07, 2020, 02:49:36 PM
You could in fact adopt the McDonald's model of customers taking their own food to their tables, just in a fancier environment. In fact I would prefer this given how many times I've seen servers placing plates on the table with their thumbs touching the food.
After that server just bussed another table (how many times have you seen wait staff grab multiple used glasses at once with fingers in glasses?). In many restaurants, the wait staff serving food and the bus staff clearing dirty dishes are the same people. Gross.
Quote from: spork on June 07, 2020, 02:49:36 PM
So now I'm wondering: if one of those higher-ed traditions like in-person office hours disappears except for occasional on-demand appointments, what else happens?
Great question. Are you saying all in-person appointments or just office hours in case someone stops by? I'm sad that many things I like about academe may disappear. It was already happening with libraries -- admin arguing for "better uses" for that space. There are benefits to browsing the book stacks (it's not the same online) and many students have never done that.
Quote from: Cheerful on June 07, 2020, 04:16:48 PM
[. . .]
Great question. Are you saying all in-person appointments or just office hours in case someone stops by? I'm sad that many things I like about academe may disappear. It was already happening with libraries -- admin arguing for "better uses" for that space. There are benefits to browsing the book stacks (it's not the same online) and many students have never done that.
I'm saying both, generally, in my case, for several reasons. First, in my decade of teaching on this campus, not a single undergraduate has just "stopped by" during office hours. And of those who make appointments, about twenty percent are no-shows. A large portion of the remainder were students who needed a paper form signed, and the university started using an e-doc workflow system last fall so the paper forms no longer exist. Office hours consisted of me sitting in my office alone doing stuff I could do at home, only because the university required it. All students now have Webex through the LMS and I'm immune compromised, so I'm not going to participate in the bureaucratic charade anymore.
Another example: business travel used to be a profit center for airlines, and companies used to send employees cross-country to attend face-to-face meetings. Will this happen as frequently as in the past? Doubtful. And airlines are eliminating service to secondary airports. So what is going to happen to those airports and the people who used to work at them? I can see conferences as the academic parallel here. My disciplinary association announced that it's annual meeting will be online. The event normally draws 10-15K attendees, with attendance paid for by their university employers. It's been a financial shell game -- disciplinary associations organize conferences to earn the revenue they need to operate, universities pay for the conferences by reimbursing faculty who attend. And now my university is prohibiting non-essential travel, because of budget cuts. For the coming fiscal year, faculty professional development funding will be reduced by more than half and conference travel on the university's dime will not be allowed. Few people are going to want to pay registration fees for online conferences.
Quote from: spork on June 08, 2020, 03:22:28 AM
Another example: business travel used to be a profit center for airlines, and companies used to send employees cross-country to attend face-to-face meetings. Will this happen as frequently as in the past? Doubtful. And airlines are eliminating service to secondary airports. So what is going to happen to those airports and the people who used to work at them? I can see conferences as the academic parallel here. My disciplinary association announced that it's annual meeting will be online. The event normally draws 10-15K attendees, with attendance paid for by their university employers. It's been a financial shell game -- disciplinary associations organize conferences to earn the revenue they need to operate, universities pay for the conferences by reimbursing faculty who attend. And now my university is prohibiting non-essential travel, because of budget cuts. For the coming fiscal year, faculty professional development funding will be reduced by more than half and conference travel on the university's dime will not be allowed. Few people are going to want to pay registration fees for online conferences.
Along these lines, I rmember years ago the informal name for a conference was something like "Math-conference-in-a-warm-place". Similarly, I've heard of companies having their annual sales meeting (which people are supposed to attend) in places with great golf courses because that's what the bigwigs want to do. All of this has NOTHING to do with value to people in the organization, who have to pay for flights, rooms, etc.
even if the employer pays "registration" fees.
Quote from: spork on June 08, 2020, 03:22:28 AM
Few people are going to want to pay registration fees for online conferences.
We had a virtual conference a couple weeks ago. We had more registered attendees than normal (200 instead of 150) with much attributed to being so much cheaper at $100 instead of $900 + travel costs (many international).
The feedback so far has been we regular attendees missed the extensive informal discussions that are a hallmark of this conference and would like some mechanism for those interactions if we end up virtual again.
However, I doubt that the next virtual conference would be so cheap. 200*$100 is only $20k. That doesn't go very far for all the additional staffers to ensure the sessions run smoothly. We have sponsors, but again I doubt they'd give a lot of money when there are no booths and minimal other reminders to the attendees about their fine products and services.
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 07, 2020, 03:29:13 PM
Quote from: spork on June 07, 2020, 02:49:36 PM
So now I'm wondering: if one of those higher-ed traditions like in-person office hours disappears except for occasional on-demand appointments, what else happens?
For labs and tutorials that are just using software, synchronous labs are likely to disappear. Along with me not having to stand around for a zillion hours in labs, I don't have to worry about the tasks being absolutely able to be completed in 2 hours; I don't have to worry if some network problem takes the system down for 1/2 hour during a lab, etc.
What will the adoption of software-based lab simulations mean for the use of space and equipment on the average campus? The need for lab TAs/instructors?
Quote from: spork on June 09, 2020, 03:24:31 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 07, 2020, 03:29:13 PM
Quote from: spork on June 07, 2020, 02:49:36 PM
So now I'm wondering: if one of those higher-ed traditions like in-person office hours disappears except for occasional on-demand appointments, what else happens?
For labs and tutorials that are just using software, synchronous labs are likely to disappear. Along with me not having to stand around for a zillion hours in labs, I don't have to worry about the tasks being absolutely able to be completed in 2 hours; I don't have to worry if some network problem takes the system down for 1/2 hour during a lab, etc.
What will the adoption of software-based lab simulations mean for the use of space and equipment on the average campus? The need for lab TAs/instructors?
Ironically, computer labs will potentially be the first to go. (It's ironic since they're the most universal and general purpose.) Physical discipline-specific labs will continue unless/until people in the discipline believe simulations are a reasonably complete alternative.
As for TAs, they will be needed unless/until autograding is the norm.
Instructors will be needed unless/until everything is purchased "canned" from a vendor. Since academics are such a militantly independent bunch, I think it will be a while before labs beyond introductory courses will be accepted "off the shelf" from someone else. (Introductory courses already use all kinds of courseware, but that's because of the economics of scale.)
The American Chemical Society is still on record as physical labs being necessary for educating chemists and other chemical professions.
Quote from: spork on June 07, 2020, 02:49:36 PM
I had a conversation with my wife yesterday about the possibility that the pandemic will end habitual ways of doing things that previously no one really thought much about. E.g., telemedicine replacing a lot of in-person appointments with physicians, LPNs, etc. Why continue to go through the aggravation of interrupting one's day to sit in a waiting room with a bunch of sick people, to talk to a doctor who is doing nothing but looking at lab test results? In my case, I doubt I will ever again hold regularly-scheduled office hours in my actual campus office.
Hmm, there are some thing telemedicine could do just as well and lots of other things it can't. Regularly scheduled check up appointments with certain kinds of specialists probably would work most of the time. However, there's a whole range of things that don't work well at all. If, in normal times, I'm sick, the whole point of going to the doctor is so that they can listen to my breathing, assess how sick I seem and figure out if anything else needs to be done or if I should just go home and lie on the couch. That can't be done well over video. Ditto for all kinds of other minor injuries and ailments.
The regularly scheduled office hours might be dying anyway, just because the idea of dropping in seems odd to most students now, given how easy it to set up an appointment with someone. I think that's too bad in a lot of ways, because I suspect it results in reduced communication. If your professor is just sitting in their office and you can just come by, I think that makes it easier to feel like you can talk to them about some concern without it feeling like a "big thing." In my upper level classes I require students to meet with me to get feedback on their drafts or proposal and it helps me get to know them better. It also is easier to talk about a paper with a student than it is to write a bunch of notes all over it.
Quote from: polly_mer on June 09, 2020, 06:05:24 AM
The American Chemical Society is still on record as physical labs being necessary for educating chemists and other chemical professions.
Do they have anything to say about things like chemistry minors, specifically? High school teachers, for instance, might only require a minor, and so I'm curious if there's any policy on that. (Does a high school chemistry teacher
count as a chemical profession? What about a middle school science teacher?)
Quote from: Caracal on June 09, 2020, 06:25:57 AM
Quote from: spork on June 07, 2020, 02:49:36 PM
I had a conversation with my wife yesterday about the possibility that the pandemic will end habitual ways of doing things that previously no one really thought much about. E.g., telemedicine replacing a lot of in-person appointments with physicians, LPNs, etc. Why continue to go through the aggravation of interrupting one's day to sit in a waiting room with a bunch of sick people, to talk to a doctor who is doing nothing but looking at lab test results? In my case, I doubt I will ever again hold regularly-scheduled office hours in my actual campus office.
Hmm, there are some thing telemedicine could do just as well and lots of other things it can't. Regularly scheduled check up appointments with certain kinds of specialists probably would work most of the time. However, there's a whole range of things that don't work well at all. If, in normal times, I'm sick, the whole point of going to the doctor is so that they can listen to my breathing, assess how sick I seem and figure out if anything else needs to be done or if I should just go home and lie on the couch. That can't be done well over video. Ditto for all kinds of other minor injuries and ailments.
I can get my heartrate and BP checked in the drugstore for free. I can go to a lab for tests and the results are sent to my doctor electronically. There are getting to be more and more things that can be done without me physically going to the office.
Quote from: polly_mer on June 09, 2020, 06:05:24 AM
The American Chemical Society is still on record as physical labs being necessary for educating chemists and other chemical professions.
In general this whole discussion reminds me of the first ten years of the internet when there were all these breathless predictions about how soon nobody would leave the house. Of course, it turned out that people do like to leave their house and successful companies on the internet needed to be offering a thing people would find easier and more pleasant. Online dating was a success because the systems it replaced involved people going to places they didn't want to go in the hopes they might meet someone else who happened to be there. The sales pitch was basically "hey, you know this awkward horrible thing you hate, but is necessary?" What if you could just do it while you sat at home instead, and at least when people were gross and unappealing you wouldn't have to physically walk away from them?
We've been ordering groceries and picking them up outside the store, but I have no desire to continue doing it after things settle down. It isn't a convenience for me, it's the opposite. Same with lots of things involved in this. Everyone isn't going to switch to online classes or canned online labs because those things are actually crummier and don't provide the same benefits.
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 09, 2020, 06:45:16 AM
[
I can get my heartrate and BP checked in the drugstore for free. I can go to a lab for tests and the results are sent to my doctor electronically. There are getting to be more and more things that can be done without me physically going to the office.
Sure, and that might be fine for your yearly appointment, or a follow up visit about your blood pressure or cholesterol, but it isn't going to be super useful if you think you have an ear infection.
Quote from: Caracal on June 09, 2020, 06:57:08 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 09, 2020, 06:45:16 AM
I can get my heartrate and BP checked in the drugstore for free. I can go to a lab for tests and the results are sent to my doctor electronically. There are getting to be more and more things that can be done without me physically going to the office.
Sure, and that might be fine for your yearly appointment, or a follow up visit about your blood pressure or cholesterol, but it isn't going to be super useful if you think you have an ear infection.
Of course, but it doesn't have to be.
Quote from: Caracal on June 09, 2020, 06:54:59 AM
In general this whole discussion reminds me of the first ten years of the internet when there were all these breathless predictions about how soon nobody would leave the house. Of course, it turned out that people do like to leave their house and successful companies on the internet needed to be offering a thing people would find easier and more pleasant. Online dating was a success because the systems it replaced involved people going to places they didn't want to go in the hopes they might meet someone else who happened to be there. The sales pitch was basically "hey, you know this awkward horrible thing you hate, but is necessary?" What if you could just do it while you sat at home instead, and at least when people were gross and unappealing you wouldn't have to physically walk away from them?
I can't remember the source, but the statistic I heard a few years ago was that now about 25% of couples meet online. It doesn't have to be close to 100% to be very disruptive.
Quote
We've been ordering groceries and picking them up outside the store, but I have no desire to continue doing it after things settle down. It isn't a convenience for me, it's the opposite. Same with lots of things involved in this. Everyone isn't going to switch to online classes or canned online labs because those things are actually crummier and don't provide the same benefits.
I don't do curbside pickup for groceries, (I have once or twice), but having done it for some things like hardware I realized I might do it in some cases later. As above, even if these novel processes account for 10 or 20% of the market going forward that's a very big change from before. In the discussions on here about institutions closing, one of the risk factors is places that haven't established their own niche.
Airbnb hasn't eliminated hotels or apartments, but it's profoundly changed the market for
medium term rentals.
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 09, 2020, 06:41:47 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 09, 2020, 06:05:24 AM
The American Chemical Society is still on record as physical labs being necessary for educating chemists and other chemical professions.
Do they have anything to say about things like chemistry minors, specifically? High school teachers, for instance, might only require a minor, and so I'm curious if there's any policy on that. (Does a high school chemistry teacher count as a chemical profession? What about a middle school science teacher?)
K-8 teachers don't necessarily need any chemistry or physics college courses. In the states where I've been involved in teacher education, the prospective teachers take science for teachers as part of their standard curriculum and pass an exam. Good teachers will seek additional training and may even take a minor/major either pre-service or post-service.
High school teachers may only need the majors intro year courses with labs (about 10 credits depending on the state) and pass the tests for teaching chemistry, physics, or even math. One of the ongoing frustrations in the American Physical Society and the American Association of Physics Teachers is how few people teaching physics at the high school level even have a minor in physics. My experience in AAPT with local rural sections was we had a non-negligible number of people show up new for the first time as people who only had a year of university physics and were trying to then teach physics courses at the HS-level as the only person in the county teaching physics. Those folks had no college courses in teaching physics or actual formal instruction related to the pedagogy of high school physics.
Chemistry tends to be slightly better in terms of having more people teaching HS chemistry who have a reasonable chemistry background, but there are still a lot of local ACS sections that work hard at supporting individuals who end up at a small rural HS as a biology expert tasked with also covering one section of chemistry, one section of physics, and possibly some math courses.
What I've seen is that ACS/APS count teachers at all levels as members of the relevant community, but the problem is exactly that those folks are practicing professionals who didn't get nearly the education prior to becoming a professional that would be mandatory in an ideal world. Thus, the professional societies put a lot of effort into outreach to the teachers to ensure that the new generation of students are better served. So far as I can tell, it's been a few generations now and, if anything, the number of people who end up in the classroom without the expected background has increased.
Quote from: Caracal on June 09, 2020, 06:54:59 AM
Everyone isn't going to switch to online classes or canned online labs because those things are actually crummier and don't provide the same benefits.
I agree with people not switching to what is clearly a crummier experience that doesn't meet any of the goals for why someone would engage in the activity.
However, as someone who lives in a small-by-population, large-by-geography town so there's practically nothing here, but there are no quick trips anywhere, staying home and just ordering everything has been pretty nice. I miss the work environment where I had dozens of colleagues mostly eager to talk research at the drop of a hat over having to make an appointment for a phone call, but I'm not missing very much else about leaving the house.
My prior-to-shutdown life was pretty much only going to work and then enjoying my large house in a quiet, safe neighborhood.
I know I'm not alone in this based on the social media in my town and the regular "water cooler" discussions as part of regularly scheduled meetings. The town thrives on people whose getting out of the house is mostly a hike in the forest. Many of the assertions of why lockdown doesn't work and people won't stand for it for as long as necessary to reduce the overall effect of Covid-19 are pooh-poohed here. We miss having a ton of time in our offices, labs, collaboratoria, and other spaces with excited humans doing fabulously cool things, but online ordering even before the lockdown was a standard thing.
The questions for our institution remain mostly along the lines of:
* Since we know people can work from home and be productive, will we be able to keep a work-from-home option when things really open back up?
* Is there any way to go all the way up to 24/7 shifts now for researchers so we can get more time with our equipment while still obeying all social distancing and sanitation processes? Some people would be willing to work every night from midnight to 7 AM (leaving time for the day shift to arrive with no overlap) if it meant being reasonably safe and still being productive.
Quote from: polly_mer on June 09, 2020, 08:42:43 AM
High school teachers may only need the majors intro year courses with labs (about 10 credits depending on the state) and pass the tests for teaching chemistry, physics, or even math. One of the ongoing frustrations in the American Physical Society and the American Association of Physics Teachers is how few people teaching physics at the high school level even have a minor in physics. My experience in AAPT with local rural sections was we had a non-negligible number of people show up new for the first time as people who only had a year of university physics and were trying to then teach physics courses at the HS-level as the only person in the county teaching physics. Those folks had no college courses in teaching physics or actual formal instruction related to the pedagogy of high school physics.
Yikes. In Ontario (and I'd imagine other provinces are similar), you basically have to have at least a minor in a subject to teach it in high school. (Typically, teachers need to have two "teachable" subjects, so that would usually be their major and minor.)
Found out today that every last one of us will have a Blackboard shell automatically created for us well before the fall semester starts. This has not been procedure in the past when we had to actually request a BB shell through the automated system online. Not everyone uses BB, at least in the past.
The announcement was made two weeks ago that we are going F2F in the fall...and yet the tech center is automatically dispensing BB shells to everyone.
Do we have an administrative bait-and-switch tactic going on?
I sure hope so. I have a good job, but I am not sure I am willing to risk stroke, blood clots, damaged organs, death, or even a miserable week in the ICU for it.
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 09, 2020, 09:39:15 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 09, 2020, 08:42:43 AM
High school teachers may only need the majors intro year courses with labs (about 10 credits depending on the state) and pass the tests for teaching chemistry, physics, or even math. One of the ongoing frustrations in the American Physical Society and the American Association of Physics Teachers is how few people teaching physics at the high school level even have a minor in physics. My experience in AAPT with local rural sections was we had a non-negligible number of people show up new for the first time as people who only had a year of university physics and were trying to then teach physics courses at the HS-level as the only person in the county teaching physics. Those folks had no college courses in teaching physics or actual formal instruction related to the pedagogy of high school physics.
Yikes. In Ontario (and I'd imagine other provinces are similar), you basically have to have at least a minor in a subject to teach it in high school. (Typically, teachers need to have two "teachable" subjects, so that would usually be their major and minor.)
In the U.S. it seems to be very rare for people who have any significant interest in STEM subjects to go into education, or for anybody who is interested in K-12 teaching to have any interest in STEM subjects. It's not unusual for math or science teachers in K-12 to be remanufactured English majors who ran through a quick certification course to qualify to teach their subject. Sometimes they do this to make themselves more employable, sometimes there's a bit of a salary bump for teaching the unpopular subject.
It's hard to exaggerate just how poor some of these teachers can be. I used to know a local junior high math teacher who gave the impression of only just barely knowing more about mathematics than she was required to teach her students. She was certainly hopeless when it came to managing her personal finances. I nearly fell over once when she said that she couldn't understand how she could be paying and paying on her college loan and yet the balance never went down. She was apparently unaware of a little thing called "interest," and that minimum loan payments tend to be interest-only.
With this kind of talent teaching many of our public school students, it's small wonder we have such widespread innumeracy in the U.S.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 09, 2020, 10:04:57 AM
Found out today that every last one of us will have a Blackboard shell automatically created for us well before the fall semester starts. This has not been procedure in the past when we had to actually request a BB shell through the automated system online. Not everyone uses BB, at least in the past.
The announcement was made two weeks ago that we are going F2F in the fall...and yet the tech center is automatically dispensing BB shells to everyone.
Do we have an administrative bait-and-switch tactic going on?
I sure hope so. I have a good job, but I am not sure I am willing to risk stroke, blood clots, damaged organs, death, or even a miserable week in the ICU for it.
They may be planning a bait-and-switch. I'd guess that they more likely genuinely aspire to open in the fall, yet realize that they need to have some kind of contingency plan to go all-online if they really must.
Quote from: polly_mer on June 09, 2020, 06:05:24 AM
The American Chemical Society is still on record as physical labs being necessary for educating chemists and other chemical professions.
I think a lot of agencies and groups are just not updating their websites right now, or they're very slow and careful with what they're releasing.
Our college had a personal chat with an ACS spokesperson back in May. They formally stated to us that it was fine to substitute fake online chemistry labs for both this summer and this fall. And so we are, and we will.
Not only chemistry, either. Once ACS backed down with chemistry labs, our admin-wonks pushed us into making every single STEM laboratory course type fully online. Us professors didn't have anyone left to support us, and faculty refusal alone was not considered enough.
Quote from: polly_mer on June 09, 2020, 08:59:05 AM
Quote from: Caracal on June 09, 2020, 06:54:59 AM
Everyone isn't going to switch to online classes or canned online labs because those things are actually crummier and don't provide the same benefits.
I agree with people not switching to what is clearly a crummier experience that doesn't meet any of the goals for why someone would engage in the activity.
However, as someone who lives in a small-by-population, large-by-geography town so there's practically nothing here, but there are no quick trips anywhere, staying home and just ordering everything has been pretty nice. I miss the work environment where I had dozens of colleagues mostly eager to talk research at the drop of a hat over having to make an appointment for a phone call, but I'm not missing very much else about leaving the house.
My prior-to-shutdown life was pretty much only going to work and then enjoying my large house in a quiet, safe neighborhood.
I know I'm not alone in this based on the social media in my town and the regular "water cooler" discussions as part of regularly scheduled meetings. The town thrives on people whose getting out of the house is mostly a hike in the forest. Many of the assertions of why lockdown doesn't work and people won't stand for it for as long as necessary to reduce the overall effect of Covid-19 are pooh-poohed here. We miss having a ton of time in our offices, labs, collaboratoria, and other spaces with excited humans doing fabulously cool things, but online ordering even before the lockdown was a standard thing.
I think its hard for to calibrate my experience with the work part with others. I already do "work from home" at least two days a week, but I'm now doing that with other people around instead of mostly alone, and one of those other people is a very verbal and hyper three year old. None of this has felt sustainable to me in anyway since it started. I've supported the measures that have been taken, I think they were necessary and I'm worried that the numbers aren't down as much here as one would hope, but two people with jobs, a young kid with nobody else to hang out with and basically nowhere to go, but on walks in the woods isn't something that works for any of us.
I also really do think classes online are a poor substitute in most cases. More to the point, I don't like teaching them and they don't bring me any of the feelings of satisfaction or fulfillment that in person teaching does. However, I have a hard time separating that part out from all the rest. I might feel more ok with it if we have all online classes in the fall but the kid is in daycare, assuming, that is, he can actually stay in daycare for any length of time when any sustained coughing or a fever gets him sent home for three days and that we don't all get Covid...
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 09, 2020, 10:04:57 AM
Found out today that every last one of us will have a Blackboard shell automatically created for us well before the fall semester starts. This has not been procedure in the past when we had to actually request a BB shell through the automated system online. Not everyone uses BB, at least in the past.
The announcement was made two weeks ago that we are going F2F in the fall...and yet the tech center is automatically dispensing BB shells to everyone.
Do we have an administrative bait-and-switch tactic going on?
Yeah, lots of colleges are saying this. Then they say something two weeks later. And something else two weeks after that. At this point, I feel that predicting how the Fall will go is mostly a waste of time.
But... I would also say that
at least for now, it is highly prudent for every professor to have their courses automatically assigned to LMS shells. Better safe than sorry. If you don't end up needing the shells, cool. But if you do need them, they're already there for you, and your college is pre-prepped for instant implementation.
Big Urban College normally gives everybody an LMS shell for each course, but there is no requirement for a professor to use the things except for certain course types. For the pandemic, we "upgraded" everyone to a higher minimum level of LMS shell, to allow everyone to operate their courses as fully online as they wanted with no software restrictions.
Quote from: apl68 on June 09, 2020, 10:44:47 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 09, 2020, 10:04:57 AM
Found out today that every last one of us will have a Blackboard shell automatically created for us well before the fall semester starts. This has not been procedure in the past when we had to actually request a BB shell through the automated system online. Not everyone uses BB, at least in the past.
The announcement was made two weeks ago that we are going F2F in the fall...and yet the tech center is automatically dispensing BB shells to everyone.
Do we have an administrative bait-and-switch tactic going on?
I sure hope so. I have a good job, but I am not sure I am willing to risk stroke, blood clots, damaged organs, death, or even a miserable week in the ICU for it.
They may be planning a bait-and-switch. I'd guess that they more likely genuinely aspire to open in the fall, yet realize that they need to have some kind of contingency plan to go all-online if they really must.
Good point. Could be. We also got the "guidelines" for "reopening safely" from our brand-spaking-new provost which is unbelievably, hilariously vague and unhelpful. It is pretty clear that our new provost has absolutely no idea what to do except to acknowledge that "it may be difficult in some classroom situations to observe social distancing." No sh**, Sherlock.
This is very stressful.
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 09, 2020, 07:30:31 AM
I can't remember the source, but the statistic I heard a few years ago was that now about 25% of couples meet online. It doesn't have to be close to 100% to be very disruptive.
In the case of online dating, I'd assume it has basically replaced "going to bars or clubs with the express purpose of meeting someone." It just was that lots of people always met people who were in school with them, or because they were a friend of a friend.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 09, 2020, 11:49:06 AM
Good point. Could be. We also got the "guidelines" for "reopening safely" from our brand-spaking-new provost which is unbelievably, hilariously vague and unhelpful. It is pretty clear that our new provost has absolutely no idea what to do except to acknowledge that "it may be difficult in some classroom situations to observe social distancing." No sh**, Sherlock.
This is very stressful.
Well, we do have a whole plan involving hybrid which I think will probably work fairly well in the sense that I think classrooms should make it fairly easily to stay six feet away from anyone who is around for a prolonged period of time. The problem is that I think that those kinds of precautions are only effective if you have a low prevalence of COVID in the community and you're trying to avoid fast spreading outbreaks. It isn't going to make it low risk to be a in a room with an infected person for an hour.
Quote from: Caracal on June 09, 2020, 12:07:59 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 09, 2020, 07:30:31 AM
I can't remember the source, but the statistic I heard a few years ago was that now about 25% of couples meet online. It doesn't have to be close to 100% to be very disruptive.
In the case of online dating, I'd assume it has basically replaced "going to bars or clubs with the express purpose of meeting someone." It just was that lots of people always met people who were in school with them, or because they were a friend of a friend.
Actually, I'd guess the "bar crowd" (at least pre-covid) probably still do bars. Older people, single parents, and people who don't have easy options for regularly meeting other single people benefit a lot by online options. Students (as an example) are surrounded by other single people in person, so they don't need it. (Although it seems to me that Tinder is about as close to a singles bar as you can get, so even some of the bar crowd have shifted online as well.)
And it's that "long tail" factor that is the same in education. There will probably always be a large demographic for whom the in-person experience works, but there will probably also be a significant minority for whom that works badly, or not at all, who will be the market for inline education.
Quote from: polly_mer on June 09, 2020, 08:59:05 AM
Quote from: Caracal on June 09, 2020, 06:54:59 AM
Everyone isn't going to switch to online classes or canned online labs because those things are actually crummier and don't provide the same benefits.
I agree with people not switching to what is clearly a crummier experience that doesn't meet any of the goals for why someone would engage in the activity.
[. . . ]
For the benefit of whom? My university offers a 100-level, 3-credit online chemistry course that is taught by someone with an M.S. in another field. There are no physical labs. I know I'm somewhat biased about what constitutes "good science education" because of the math and science courses I took and my work in an engineering lab while an undergraduate, but it seems clear to me that this course only exists to check one of the boxes in my university's gen ed science requirement. Students have to complete a requirement to graduate, so we make it easy for them to complete it. Students pay three credits in tuition and get three credits added to their transcript. It's win-win, until the student population that takes this kind of course finds out they can take the same kind of course from another vendor with accreditation at a tenth of the price.
Quote
* Since we know people can work from home and be productive, will we be able to keep a work-from-home option when things really open back up?
* Is there any way to go all the way up to 24/7 shifts now for researchers so we can get more time with our equipment while still obeying all social distancing and sanitation processes? Some people would be willing to work every night from midnight to 7 AM (leaving time for the day shift to arrive with no overlap) if it meant being reasonably safe and still being productive.
My university is only now, and with great reluctance, broadening the days and times courses will be offered in order to comply with social distancing requirements. E.g., a section of a course that is essentially hybrid that meets in the physical classroom on Saturday mornings. The practice of some colleges and universities not using a year-round academic calendar always struck me as crazy. I think that practice will become even more rare because fewer institutions will be able to afford letting their physical assets sit idle during summers.
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 09, 2020, 12:20:29 PM
Actually, I'd guess the "bar crowd" (at least pre-covid) probably still do bars. Older people, single parents, and people who don't have easy options for regularly meeting other single people benefit a lot by online options. Students (as an example) are surrounded by other single people in person, so they don't need it. (Although it seems to me that Tinder is about as close to a singles bar as you can get, so even some of the bar crowd have shifted online as well.)
People go to bars, because they like bars. I'm sure sometimes they happen to meet a person there and date them, but I don't think this is a plan for many people anymore. People in their 20s mostly meet online now, and Tinder is just really another dating site, there's nothing that scandalous about it.
New York Times piece on possibly permanent changes to corporate operations and cultures evolving from the shift to working at home:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/09/magazine/remote-work-covid.html (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/09/magazine/remote-work-covid.html).
I love not having a commute. Would I be willing to give up the office that I'm rarely in in exchange for only coming to campus on a very occasional basis? Yes. If that choice is offered to enough people, the university eliminates the need for a building full of offices. The building could be converted to a student hangout. Or a dormitory. Or a banquet hall available for rent.
Quote from: spork on June 10, 2020, 11:51:17 AM
New York Times piece on possibly permanent changes to corporate operations and cultures evolving from the shift to working at home:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/09/magazine/remote-work-covid.html (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/09/magazine/remote-work-covid.html).
I love not having a commute. Would I be willing to give up the office that I'm rarely in in exchange for only coming to campus on a very occasional basis? Yes. If that choice is offered to enough people, the university eliminates the need for a building full of offices. The building could be converted to a student hangout. Or a dormitory. Or a banquet hall available for rent.
I would definitely go for a shared office model if it meant I was expected on campus much less. Way back when I first started my academic career, my office was a place to organize articles and books, securely store data. I just don't require that kind of space any longer. I do need a sometime space, for students who want to meet in person for office hours, for instance. For a quiet space to get some grading done between F2F class sessions, but do I need a space dedicated t me? I don't think so. Of course, we still have some administrators who equate presence on campus with effort. They'd have to get over that.
Quote from: Bonnie on June 10, 2020, 12:33:49 PM
Quote from: spork on June 10, 2020, 11:51:17 AM
New York Times piece on possibly permanent changes to corporate operations and cultures evolving from the shift to working at home:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/09/magazine/remote-work-covid.html (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/09/magazine/remote-work-covid.html).
I love not having a commute. Would I be willing to give up the office that I'm rarely in in exchange for only coming to campus on a very occasional basis? Yes. If that choice is offered to enough people, the university eliminates the need for a building full of offices. The building could be converted to a student hangout. Or a dormitory. Or a banquet hall available for rent.
I would definitely go for a shared office model if it meant I was expected on campus much less. Way back when I first started my academic career, my office was a place to organize articles and books, securely store data. I just don't require that kind of space any longer. I do need a sometime space, for students who want to meet in person for office hours, for instance. For a quiet space to get some grading done between F2F class sessions, but do I need a space dedicated t me? I don't think so. Of course, we still have some administrators who equate presence on campus with effort. They'd have to get over that.
It seems like people's feelings about an office are connected to how close to campus they are, what sort of class schedule they have, and whether there's anywhere else pleasant to be around or near campus. As an adjunct, I share an office, but only with people who teach opposite days then me, and if I didn't have the office largely to myself, I'm not sure I'd continue teaching. I teach 3-4 classes on my teaching days, in an eight hour day. I'm on a large crowded campus and there's no pleasant coffee shop or anything to hang out in during the day. Leaving campus isn't a good option, because the area off campus isn't very walkable, and just getting to my car and back takes 20 minutes. I need my office on my teaching days as a base camp. I also just hate sharing office space with someone physically there. I want to be able to come back after class, shut the door for 20 minutes and eat my sandwich in peace without worrying if I'm chewing too loud.
The changes have polarized an already transitional campus here into two distinct & distant camps. The traditionalists long to snap back into the old ways of doing without delay. For example, I filled out a paper form in person today on two separate occasions. The futurists are delightedly planning for the completion of a hybridizing process that removes anything not essentially face-to-face to an online environment. May end up to be quite a spectacle.
Quote from: spork on March 11, 2020, 08:45:35 AMPer Kevin Kelly: "Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." — Clay Shirky
A thought-provoking line, indeed!
Quote from: spork on June 09, 2020, 02:03:53 PM
My university is only now, and with great reluctance, broadening the days and times courses will be offered in order to comply with social distancing requirements. E.g., a section of a course that is essentially hybrid that meets in the physical classroom on Saturday mornings. The practice of some colleges and universities not using a year-round academic calendar always struck me as crazy. I think that practice will become even more rare because fewer institutions will be able to afford letting their physical assets sit idle during summers.
Has summer Pell been reinstated?
Are students going to sign up in droves for year-round required courses so that the financial aid can be standardized into year-round awards?
Are faculty going to be willing to teach all the required courses in the necessary terms so the students can make necessary progress in the majors that have long-prerequisite chains with no flexibility?
What are the tradeoffs financially for having summers with students instead of renting out facilities to summer camps and organizations?
What are the tradeoffs for recruitment by not having regular extended visits by k-12 students and other members of the community?
Quote from: polly_mer on June 11, 2020, 07:03:17 AM
Quote from: spork on June 09, 2020, 02:03:53 PM
My university is only now, and with great reluctance, broadening the days and times courses will be offered in order to comply with social distancing requirements. E.g., a section of a course that is essentially hybrid that meets in the physical classroom on Saturday mornings. The practice of some colleges and universities not using a year-round academic calendar always struck me as crazy. I think that practice will become even more rare because fewer institutions will be able to afford letting their physical assets sit idle during summers.
Has summer Pell been reinstated?
Are students going to sign up in droves for year-round required courses so that the financial aid can be standardized into year-round awards?
Are faculty going to be willing to teach all the required courses in the necessary terms so the students can make necessary progress in the majors that have long-prerequisite chains with no flexibility?
What are the tradeoffs financially for having summers with students instead of renting out facilities to summer camps and organizations?
What are the tradeoffs for recruitment by not having regular extended visits by k-12 students and other members of the community?
All good questions. I do not have answers to most of them.
As for the last question: "extended" visits currently consist of very infrequent overnight dorm stays by prospective (currently in high school) students. We have no residential community outreach programs; really we have no community outreach programs at all (occasionally individual faculty members develop something but there is little to no institutional support beyond a pat on the back).
As for the next-to-the-last question: we lost $3.2 million in dorm and meal plan refunds for half of the spring semester, and ~ $1 million in lost summer event revenue for the first half of the summer. Given the obscenely expensive summer rental market in the area the campus is located in (students vacate off-campus apartments during summers because they can't afford the rent), we could open up a dorm or two for part of the summer and it would net more revenue than facilities rentals.
I am now looking at the academic calendar for a Canadian university: fall, winter, and summer terms. Courses run in six different configurations within those terms -- fall only, winter only, fall + winter, summer I, summer II, and all summer. Not rocket science. But disbursement of financial aid in the USA is not my area of expertise.
I ran the online RN-to-BSN program as year round and it was fine because it was non-optional. They had six sessions per year with breaks between sessions. Students could sit out the occasional session, but then they dropped back to the next cohort to stay on the required path.
I learned a lot about financial aid details as SD experimented with curriculum and having more students on campus for mini-sessions, alternate start times within a given term, and mixing online/on-campus offerings that were originally separate and therefore charged different prices for 'the same' course.
The overhead on keeping all that straight along with the timelines for mandatory reporting was huge for the registrar's office and the financial aid office. Larger institutions are better situated to have enough staff so the overhead is a reasonable cost of business for the increased flexibility for students.
I've read about programs and institutions that do year round well. However, the conversion requires hammering out a lot of details that will be specific to a student body.
When I investigated converting to three-year BA degrees with required summers for SD, the conclusion was we would lose most of the students we had because they did not want to be in school year round. We also wouldn't pick up the students who really want the intense educational experience because SD was not rigorous enough. Thus, our best option for the summers was to rent out our facilities and offer suitable gen ed courses online.
We haven't had summer online gen ed courses since third-provost-ago cancelled the program without any rationale. So students in the five-years-but-squished-into-four bachelor's programs (like elementary ed) take summer courses elsewhere, often online, and transfer the credits back. There are probably some students in these programs who would really like to take some courses in a shortened summer session to lessen their fall-spring workloads.
Quote from: spork on June 11, 2020, 01:01:27 PM
We haven't had summer online gen ed courses since third-provost-ago cancelled the program without any rationale. So students in the five-years-but-squished-into-four bachelor's programs (like elementary ed) take summer courses elsewhere, often online, and transfer the credits back. There are probably some students in these programs who would really like to take some courses in a shortened summer session to lessen their fall-spring workloads.
The case made by the SD registrar for specific summer online gen ed classes was exactly that SD was losing revenue by having students enroll in CC classes to transfer credits back.
The Provost/Dean of Beloit College (a Wisconsin-based LAC) describes his institution's plan for reopening its campus for the Fall 2020 semester in an interview with PBS Marketplace:
https://www.marketplace.org/2020/06/09/covid-19-college-reopening-classes/
Excepts from the interview:
Quote
David Brancaccio: Tell me about this hinge, this pivot point that you're building into the semester to come.
Eric Boynton (Provost/Dean): Instead of teaching a 15- or 16-week semester in which a student takes four courses, which is a normal load, we would split the semester up into two modules, and students would take two full courses, each in a seven and a half week "Mod." And so there's a hinge in the semester, and that hinge is this way to maximize flexibility. If we needed to move away from campus, there would be a place, a pivot point in the semester where it'd be natural to move off campus. Or, if we had to start out online, it's also a place in which only two courses would be affected.
Brancaccio: What are you doing about classroom size, seating, labs — even dorms?
Boynton: We're going to be on campus in clever ways. We will have nearly enough capacity to give people single rooms, for instance. We'll have classroom spaces in which no more than 10 students will be gathered at a time. This is one of the benefits of a small liberal arts institution where you have a rather large campus for a small number of students. And so we're able to deal with density in ways that larger state campuses just can't deal with....
I'm betting that it's going to be some kind of hybrid educational model, in which we're on campus with most of our students, but not all of our students. There'll be certain students that can't return to campus, like there'll be certain faculty that should not teach on campus, those who are at risk.
From another thread:
Quote from: Cheerful on June 15, 2020, 02:44:32 PM
Quote from: spork on June 15, 2020, 12:45:04 PM
All admin support (a.k.a. secretaries) have been furloughed for the remainder of the summer at my university.
Sorry to hear that. Sad for the people furloughed. I guess faculty and other staff have to do extra clerical work with no extra pay (along with other extra work on course prep, etc.). You reported earlier that your u library is closed. How can you have a "university" without a library?
[. . . ]
This raises the question of whether a library -- as customarily designed and operated -- is needed at a university that is primarily for undergraduate instruction.
How else will we teach them what books are and how to use them?
Exposure to the covered paper thingys is getting sparser and sparser in the elementary-to-middle-school world.
Pretty soon the TV screens in the wall that Bradbury predicted are going to take over the universe....
M.
If the only place people encounter physical books is school, how much can physical books matter to normal people?
My primary physical books at this point are pleasure reading and textbooks for new areas where I need formal explicit instruction. I do a ton of reading, but it's electronic now.
When I asked forumites about where they kept their emergency books, the good academics here specifically mentioned their e-readers.
I thought I'd miss the libraries that have been shut for months. What I miss is my Saturday morning routine and a handful of reference books that are not available electronically.
Quote from: polly_mer on June 15, 2020, 04:47:17 PM
When I asked forumites about where they kept their emergency books, the good academics here specifically mentioned their e-readers.????
Quote from: Caracal on June 15, 2020, 04:54:44 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 15, 2020, 04:47:17 PM
When I asked forumites about where they kept their emergency books, the good academics here specifically mentioned their e-readers.????
I read a great many ebooks and I love my Kindlefire, and I dig the PDFs I've saved to my computer, but I am a long way away from giving up my paper books, particularly since I spend my time writing about these books.
We had a chemistry professor unsuccessfully attempt to shut down our library. I almost posted about this but decided it was too inflammatory.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 15, 2020, 07:14:48 PM
Quote from: Caracal on June 15, 2020, 04:54:44 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 15, 2020, 04:47:17 PM
When I asked forumites about where they kept their emergency books, the good academics here specifically mentioned their e-readers.????
I read a great many ebooks and I love my Kindlefire, and I dig the PDFs I've saved to my computer, but I am a long way away from giving up my paper books, particularly since I spend my time writing about these books.
We had a chemistry professor unsuccessfully attempt to shut down our library. I almost posted about this but decided it was too inflammatory.
Well, you probably aren't on Poly's list of good academics.
Quote from: Caracal on June 15, 2020, 07:19:18 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 15, 2020, 07:14:48 PM
Quote from: Caracal on June 15, 2020, 04:54:44 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 15, 2020, 04:47:17 PM
When I asked forumites about where they kept their emergency books, the good academics here specifically mentioned their e-readers.????
I read a great many ebooks and I love my Kindlefire, and I dig the PDFs I've saved to my computer, but I am a long way away from giving up my paper books, particularly since I spend my time writing about these books.
We had a chemistry professor unsuccessfully attempt to shut down our library. I almost posted about this but decided it was too inflammatory.
Well, you probably aren't on Poly's list of good academics.
Good point.
Quote from: polly_mer on June 15, 2020, 04:47:17 PM
If the only place people encounter physical books is school, how much can physical books matter to normal people?
My primary physical books at this point are pleasure reading and textbooks for new areas where I need formal explicit instruction. I do a ton of reading, but it's electronic now.
When I asked forumites about where they kept their emergency books, the good academics here specifically mentioned their e-readers.
I thought I'd miss the libraries that have been shut for months. What I miss is my Saturday morning routine and a handful of reference books that are not available electronically.
Electronically annotating a text just doesn't feel the same, nor does it seem to make the same lasting neural impact. I need to physically hold, underline and annotate a text, at least if I am reading it for research or teaching.
+1,000....
And we're not alone.
You should see some of the cool glosses and marginalia that folks left in their 13th c. manuscripts...and they weren't all 13th c. readers, either.
M.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 15, 2020, 07:22:43 PM
Quote from: Caracal on June 15, 2020, 07:19:18 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 15, 2020, 07:14:48 PM
Quote from: Caracal on June 15, 2020, 04:54:44 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on June 15, 2020, 04:47:17 PM
When I asked forumites about where they kept their emergency books, the good academics here specifically mentioned their e-readers.????
I read a great many ebooks and I love my Kindlefire, and I dig the PDFs I've saved to my computer, but I am a long way away from giving up my paper books, particularly since I spend my time writing about these books.
We had a chemistry professor unsuccessfully attempt to shut down our library. I almost posted about this but decided it was too inflammatory.
Well, you probably aren't on Poly's list of good academics.
Good point.
Yeah, snark aside, I sometimes find it convenient in the moment to use an ebook for teaching or research (usually when I get to school and realize I forgot to bring my copy from home or vice versa) but it isn't nearly as easy or efficient to use. I find it much harder to skim an ebook or find a particular passage I'm looking for. If we are going to be talking about a book chapter for class, I can usually remind myself of the gist of it in about 5 minutes of skimming, it doesn't work as well on an ebook for some reason.
1). I was using 'good academics' in the sense of 'folks here are mostly academics who care about being academics', not an exclusionary subset of people here, but I guess we're still poking at each other, Caracal, aren't we.
Have you upgraded to reading primary reports or are we going to keep seeing misinformed science straight from the mass media headlines in combination with a complete lack of awareness that higher ed has open interest media where issues of great interest to the community are actively discussed like Inside Higher Ed and Chronicle of Higher Education?
You're not showing any evidence of the relevant outlets, but keep acting as though the observation of that lack is missing one particular highly specialized article found only in the basement at the bottom of a filing cabinet behind a sign stating 'beware of tiger'.
2) Sometimes needing paper for a specific task is not at all the same as keeping libraries frozen exactly as they are at some point in time because everyone should start from where a generic you personally started as a child. I'm amazed frequently on how some of the people explicitly tasked with teaching critical thinking as part of lifelong learning freeze their own habits and views soon after graduating to insist that's what all students now and for the foreseeable future need.
I have scanned items with marginalia to attach a copy in a data base with my additional notes. My employer has a stadium-sized room to capture that kind of additional useful information as world experts in tiny knowledge areas have retired. However, it's not at all clear that most middle schoolers have access to the personal copies of items of experts with marginalia worth saving.
Quote from: polly_mer on June 16, 2020, 06:16:21 AM
1). I was using 'good academics' in the sense of 'folks here are mostly academics who care about being academics', not an exclusionary subset of people here, but I guess we're still poking at each other, Caracal, aren't we.
Have you upgraded to reading primary reports or are we going to keep seeing misinformed science straight from the mass media headlines in combination with a complete lack of awareness that higher ed has open interest media where issues of great interest to the community are actively discussed like Inside Higher Ed and Chronicle of Higher Education?
You're not showing any evidence of the relevant outlets, but keep acting as though the observation of that lack is missing one particular highly specialized article found only in the basement at the bottom of a filing cabinet behind a sign stating 'beware of tiger'.
I think you're being very strange, and this whole tack of yours is incredibly boring. I'm really not going to engage in a discussion about whether I read the forum or insidehighered enough. If you don't agree with something I write, you can say so, if you don't think it is interesting, you're free to move on.
Quote from: polly_mer on June 16, 2020, 06:16:21 AM
2) Sometimes needing paper for a specific task is not at all the same as keeping libraries frozen exactly as they are at some point in time because everyone should start from where a generic you personally started as a child. I'm amazed frequently on how some of the people explicitly tasked with teaching critical thinking as part of lifelong learning freeze their own habits and views soon after graduating to insist that's what all students now and for the foreseeable future need.
I use electronic stuff all the time for teaching and research. I wish more things were digitized in my field, it would save me a lot of time and trouble. (Why, why isn't all microfilm digitized?) I don't begrudge anyone their own methods of reading or note taking, my own are pretty eccentric and wouldn't be useful to others. However, when I see students try to look something up in class using an electronic version, it seems to almost always take them longer than it does using a physical copy. I can't really think of many academics in my field or related fields, who don't buy and make use of, physical books. I'm sure there are cultural factors at play, but I also suspect that if you're going to try to absorb and have access to information presented in a narrative form, quickly, there are a lot of real advantages to actual, real books. There are disadvantages too, of course, which is probably I use ebooks more and more these days, but if I have both options sitting right in front of me, I'll always go for the physical copy.
Quote from: polly_mer on June 16, 2020, 06:16:21 AM
1). I was using 'good academics' in the sense of 'folks here are mostly academics who care about being academics', not an exclusionary subset of people here, but I guess we're still poking at each other, Caracal, aren't we.
Just funnin', Polly.
Disclaimer: I like libraries and paper books.
Quote from: mamselle on June 15, 2020, 08:32:32 PM
+1,000....
And we're not alone.
You should see some of the cool glosses and marginalia that folks left in their 13th c. manuscripts...and they weren't all 13th c. readers, either.
M.
Most of my career in higher ed has been spent at institutions that are overwhelmingly oriented around undergraduate instruction. These students are not researching medieval manuscripts. A quarter of them major in "business." When it comes to reviewing published literature on a subject, many are unable or unwilling to do more than look at a Quora page that pops up in a Google search -- despite departmental learning outcomes and other claims about students' research skills. The Western Civ 101 course that checks the history box in the gen ed requirements is taught by adjuncts in sections of 35-100 students; there isn't any explicit instruction or assessment in these skills, that's left for the upper-level historiography course that is taken by the 8-10 history majors graduating each year.
The library at my current university is, in terms of floor space, probably the second largest academic building on campus. It now contains the IT department, mail and print services, the ADA office, academic tutoring services, the writing center, and instructional technology support staff in addition to librarians and the physical library collection. Bound journal collections are long gone. A year ago a classroom used for library instruction was replaced with a cafe. So the "library," as traditionally conceived, was shrinking in the physical sense long before the pandemic.
More importantly: if your university had to choose between intercollegiate athletics and a library, which would continue to exist on your campus?
Quote from: spork on June 16, 2020, 09:05:31 AM
if your university had to choose between intercollegiate athletics and a library, which would continue to exist on your campus?
Athletics, even though our athletic teams are strictly unimpressive.
We actually have a nice 6 story library. The students use it a lot for studying, probably because we are a commuter school and lack dorms, and it has a section dedicated to cyber research, including up-to-date instructional space.
However, one can tell exactly when the funding was dropped based on the publication dates of the books on the shelves (mid-'80s); we have virtually every "important" book up until that time and virtually none after. It's almost like a musty old library out of an Indiana Jones movie.
Perhaps this is simply part of the evolution of higher ed, but it does seem to me one more point at which we let education shrivel during our era. The question is simply how far we will let it go.
QuoteMost of my career in higher ed has been spent at institutions that are overwhelmingly oriented around undergraduate instruction.
Understood, and I realize there is a huge range of interest, financial capacity to support MS collections, a need for basic literacy in the base language, etc. as well. And I'm very aware (having also taught in such settings) that food in the cafeteria may need to come before anything else in the budget in some places.
But the student's level needn't inhibit their interest in more specific studies. in fact my interest in manuscripts began with an undergrad course, in which I ended up analyzing 6 medieval illuminations for a final paper. I was making colonial costumes when I was in 8th grade. Two of my middle-school keyboard students also play historically-informed instruments in a re-enaction unit's band. I don't think age determines the capacity to appreciate early works.
And I have tried to pass that interest on to my students in various courses I've taught, so that they realize there's depth and meaning in other eras' and other cultures' products. (And I think, or suspect, that you do as well, so I'm not really thinking of this reply as a dispute, more a clarification, perhaps).
I'm just kind of hoping that we won't be relying on all the nice, lovely digital files online (which I'm currently using, indeed for a paper right now, because I have to) and then someone will decide to just toss all the MSs into a bin behind the bibliotheque someday because they don't think they're valuable (because no-one ever taught them to).
Because I can only properly interpret that digital file since I've seen and touched the original...and others from the place it came from (it's not in its home town, not even its home country at present). Even with the best resolution, one can only understand certain glosses by checking them out up close.
There are sensate experiences that feed codicological and other descriptive studies, and they depend on the material culture of the books, or scrolls, or tablets, or other media, being maintained so we can interact with them.
Sorry....blathering on, I should just go work on the article....
M.
Quote from: mamselle on June 16, 2020, 07:46:31 PM
QuoteMost of my career in higher ed has been spent at institutions that are overwhelmingly oriented around undergraduate instruction.
Understood, and I realize there is a huge range of interest, financial capacity to support MS collections, a need for basic literacy in the base language, etc. as well. And I'm very aware (having also taught in such settings) that food in the cafeteria may need to come before anything else in the budget in some places.
But the student's level needn't inhibit their interest in more specific studies.
[. . .]
I find the following to affect students' willingness to have/pursue specific academic interests far more than level (I'm assuming your use of "level" refers to freshman, sophomore, junior, senior):
- Quality of the college student's K-12 education (which in turn is usually a function of zip code/household wealth).
- Design of the undergraduate curriculum (a major requiring 80 credits out of a total of 120 by default limits opportunities to explore other interests compared to a major requiring 40 credits; also situations of, for example, empty claims of "interdisciplinariness" in a curriculum composed of single course disciplinary check-box requirements).
- Quality of undergraduate instruction.
- Financial resources of the undergraduate institution, or rather willingness/ability of the institution to devote finite resources to academics instead of other operational expenses that might in reality have very little effect on meeting enrollment, regulatory, and other needs.
Over the last decade or two there has been a steady increase in the number of AP/dual enrollment courses taken by college-bound high school students. To me that indicates that the dominant bachelor's-degree-in-four-years model is really quite arbitrary and ripe for replacement, at least for a portion of undergraduates.
Here is one elite LAC that will be operating (mostly) online this coming Fall semester:
https://www.pressherald.com/2020/06/22/bowdoin-announces-most-classes-will-be-taught-online-this-fall/ (https://www.pressherald.com/2020/06/22/bowdoin-announces-most-classes-will-be-taught-online-this-fall/)
Quote
Nearly all classes offered by Bowdoin College this fall will be taught online and about two-thirds of the students will remain off campus for the semester, the college announced Monday.
About one-third of the student population is expected to be on campus this fall, including new first-year and transfer students, as well as select groups such as residential life staff and a small number of honors students who cannot complete pre-approved projects off campus. All other sophomores, juniors and seniors will remain off campus for the fall and take their classes online. The school also has canceled varsity athletics for the fall semester.
Bowdoin's semester is scheduled to start Sept. 2, with almost all classes, including those for students on campus, being taught online with the exception of many first-year writing seminars.
Tuition will remain unchanged at $27,911 for the semester. The college enrolls about 1,800 students, 90 percent of whom are from out of state.
Quote
In considering various return-to-campus models, (President) Rose said it made the most sense to dedicate resources to – and ask faculty to commit to – a single mode of learning rather than attempting to do a hybrid of online and in-person teaching.
"I also know how disappointed sophomores, juniors and seniors and their parents are," Rose said. "But my expectation and hope is if it goes as I believe it will I believe they will be on campus in the spring term and we can resume athletics."
If the fall semester goes well, Rose said upperclassmen could return to campus for the spring while first year and transfer students would be expected to study remotely in the spring.
^ I have a family member who works in a non-faculty capacity for a similarly-sized, but far less prestigious, institution in New England. She says that the plan she's hearing about is to only bring incoming first-year students to campus in the fall. All other students will be 100% online.
What happens to the students who attend college primarily to continue playing a sport that they played in high school when there are no sports?
Quote from: spork on June 25, 2020, 10:02:03 AM
^ I have a family member who works in a non-faculty capacity for a similarly-sized, but far less prestigious, institution in New England. She says that the plan she's hearing about is to only bring incoming first-year students to campus in the fall. All other students will be 100% online.
A thought occurred to me: Since bringing first-year students on-campus is supposed to make them feel more comfortable in some way(s), is having to wear masks or shields, distancing in classes, residences, dining halls, etc. , disinfecting surfaces, getting periodic covid tests........... going to still make them feel better than being online at home?
Is online stress greater or less than covid stress?
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 25, 2020, 10:23:21 AM
Quote from: spork on June 25, 2020, 10:02:03 AM
^ I have a family member who works in a non-faculty capacity for a similarly-sized, but far less prestigious, institution in New England. She says that the plan she's hearing about is to only bring incoming first-year students to campus in the fall. All other students will be 100% online.
Is online stress where you are stuck at home living with your parents in close quarters and under their rules greater or less than covid stress where you are stuck in your dorm with your friends all around you but you still have someone else telling you what to do once you leave your room for classes and meals?
I embellished your last point with bold.
I know which one I would choose if I were 18, 21, or 41...
We just got our first salvo from our union, filtered through administration.
Bottom line? We can be required to show up in person. Dispensation petitions for medical reasons will be heard.
The real elephant in the room? What to do about non-compliant students. (Refusing to distance, to wear masks, etc.) Union & management are not close to any agreement on this. < Gets popcorn. 6 months' supply. >
Quote from: dr_codex on June 25, 2020, 06:02:29 PM
The real elephant in the room? What to do about non-compliant students. (Refusing to distance, to wear masks, etc.) Union & management are not close to any agreement on this. < Gets popcorn. 6 months' supply. >
I know this is not a popular opinion, but I think everyone is fixated on worrying about this because it fits an emotional need, not because it really is the major issue. It is the academic version of all those dumb foreshortened pictures of people at parks and beaches. Will every student follow all the rules completely? Of course not, but that's actually not required for public health measures to be effective.
I'm not really worried about enforcing mask rules. My school has announced that masks will be required, they will be given to students and they will also be available in vending machines around campus. This seems easy enough. Everyone should have a mask, the requirement is clear, and if you forget one, they are easily available. I might make the whole thing simpler by just buying a 50 pack of masks and sticking a bunch in my bag to give to anybody who forgets along with a reminder to bring one next time.
I suspect that dealing with infractions will mostly be similarly about setting clear rules and clear penalties, particularly for the highest risk settings and using some common sense. A frat having an indoor party isn't the same thing as four students hanging out in a room together. I think the biggest risk comes just from communal settings, rather than the supposed moral decencies of students.
Quote from: Caracal on June 25, 2020, 06:48:37 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on June 25, 2020, 06:02:29 PM
The real elephant in the room? What to do about non-compliant students. (Refusing to distance, to wear masks, etc.) Union & management are not close to any agreement on this. < Gets popcorn. 6 months' supply. >
I know this is not a popular opinion, but I think everyone is fixated on worrying about this because it fits an emotional need, not because it really is the major issue. It is the academic version of all those dumb foreshortened pictures of people at parks and beaches. Will every student follow all the rules completely? Of course not, but that's actually not required for public health measures to be effective.
So, when (not "if") the first faculty member or student dies of covid contracted from being on campus, who should be held responsible? Or do "effective" health measures have an acceptable percentage of deaths?
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 26, 2020, 04:36:28 AM
Quote from: Caracal on June 25, 2020, 06:48:37 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on June 25, 2020, 06:02:29 PM
The real elephant in the room? What to do about non-compliant students. (Refusing to distance, to wear masks, etc.) Union & management are not close to any agreement on this. < Gets popcorn. 6 months' supply. >
I know this is not a popular opinion, but I think everyone is fixated on worrying about this because it fits an emotional need, not because it really is the major issue. It is the academic version of all those dumb foreshortened pictures of people at parks and beaches. Will every student follow all the rules completely? Of course not, but that's actually not required for public health measures to be effective.
So, when (not "if") the first faculty member or student dies of covid contracted from being on campus, who should be held responsible? Or do "effective" health measures have an acceptable percentage of deaths?
I hear what you are trying to say, but good luck proving where you caught COVID. The points of contamination are so varied I don't see how anyone could reasonably claim it was their employer who infected them vis-a-vis somewhere else. Many people have kids who play with other kids, have spouses who go to their places of employment and in general have to go out in the world to get groceries and essentials, so it isn't just the place of employment that is a potential point of infection.
If first responders had a hard time scientifically linking their cancers to 9/11, then good luck linking COVID to any particular source.
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 26, 2020, 04:36:28 AM
Quote from: Caracal on June 25, 2020, 06:48:37 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on June 25, 2020, 06:02:29 PM
The real elephant in the room? What to do about non-compliant students. (Refusing to distance, to wear masks, etc.) Union & management are not close to any agreement on this. < Gets popcorn. 6 months' supply. >
I know this is not a popular opinion, but I think everyone is fixated on worrying about this because it fits an emotional need, not because it really is the major issue. It is the academic version of all those dumb foreshortened pictures of people at parks and beaches. Will every student follow all the rules completely? Of course not, but that's actually not required for public health measures to be effective.
So, when (not "if") the first faculty member or student dies of covid contracted from being on campus, who should be held responsible? Or do "effective" health measures have an acceptable percentage of deaths?
That's an odd framing. Students and faculty members die every year from diseases contracted on campus. If having classes is going to result in a bunch of extra infections and unacceptable risk to professors, students, staff and the wider community, schools shouldn't reopen. That's different from insisting that only zero risk is acceptable.
Quote from: Caracal on June 25, 2020, 06:48:37 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on June 25, 2020, 06:02:29 PM
The real elephant in the room? What to do about non-compliant students. (Refusing to distance, to wear masks, etc.) Union & management are not close to any agreement on this. < Gets popcorn. 6 months' supply. >
I know this is not a popular opinion, but I think everyone is fixated on worrying about this because it fits an emotional need, not because it really is the major issue. It is the academic version of all those dumb foreshortened pictures of people at parks and beaches. Will every student follow all the rules completely? Of course not, but that's actually not required for public health measures to be effective.
I'm not really worried about enforcing mask rules. My school has announced that masks will be required, they will be given to students and they will also be available in vending machines around campus. This seems easy enough. Everyone should have a mask, the requirement is clear, and if you forget one, they are easily available. I might make the whole thing simpler by just buying a 50 pack of masks and sticking a bunch in my bag to give to anybody who forgets along with a reminder to bring one next time.
I suspect that dealing with infractions will mostly be similarly about setting clear rules and clear penalties, particularly for the highest risk settings and using some common sense. A frat having an indoor party isn't the same thing as four students hanging out in a room together. I think the biggest risk comes just from communal settings, rather than the supposed moral decencies of students.
You are writing in generalities. But what will you do if you see a student in your classroom wearing their mask below their nose? The first time? The 30th time?
My concern is with teaching a class for 90+ minutes with 20+ students in the room, with poor ventilation. If students are not talking and participating, then there's no point in requiring on-campus classes. If they are talking, they will be spreading their breath into the room, even if they are wearing masks.
Quote from: Caracal on June 26, 2020, 09:52:55 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 26, 2020, 04:36:28 AM
So, when (not "if") the first faculty member or student dies of covid contracted from being on campus, who should be held responsible? Or do "effective" health measures have an acceptable percentage of deaths?
That's an odd framing. Students and faculty members die every year from diseases contracted on campus. If having classes is going to result in a bunch of extra infections and unacceptable risk to professors, students, staff and the wider community, schools shouldn't reopen. That's different from insisting that only zero risk is acceptable.
And how many of those diseases have resulted in shutting down large sectors of the economies of countries across the globe for months, with economic costs that wil be for years if not decades?
Educational institutions all over adapted to fully online for part of the winter, and many (most?) are operating fully online for the summer. Those actions implicitly identify the risk.
Until a vaccine is widely available, there is nothing to suggest a significantly decreased risk. Having students back on campus, even with all kinds of precautions, will produce a risk which is much closer to the situation
before the lockdown than to the situation
during the lockdown. Saying the risk is "close" to zero suggests all of the lockdown measures were mostly unnecessary.
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 26, 2020, 12:05:34 PM
Until a vaccine is widely available, there is nothing to suggest a significantly decreased risk. Having students back on campus, even with all kinds of precautions, will produce a risk which is much closer to the situation before the lockdown than to the situation during the lockdown. Saying the risk is "close" to zero suggests all of the lockdown measures were mostly unnecessary.
This is pretty nonsensical on all counts. Lockdowns were a response to both rapid spread of the virus, but also a lack of knowledge of how it spread, as well as almost no testing. Plenty of countries have been able to lift lots of measures without rapid spread of the virus. Some of the hardest hit US states have also been able to do that. There is a lot of evidence that pretty targeted interventions can do a lot to prevent spread.
Of course, that isn't happening in the US at the moment and unless it does, I don't think many schools will actually reopen. You could argue, of course, that colleges are just an environment that's too risky in terms of overall spread. Maybe that's true, and maybe not, but that doesn't mean that if you lift restrictions you just magically have a resurgence of the virus. What matters is how effective tracing is and how much people are modifying behavior to reduce risks.
Some very sensical advice (https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/a-message-from-your-universitys-vice-president-for-magical-thinking?fbclid=IwAR1dXORpn8susW9pusqOtyr_HJq7V-jof7lmNW__1tJqnEVXKMdbJZRgwlo).
Envisioning a day in the life of an undergraduate student in Fall 2020. (https://insidehighered.com/digital-learning/views/2020/06/24/envisioning-day-life-remote-undergraduate-student-fall-2020)
Quote from: spork on June 27, 2020, 04:07:46 PM
Envisioning a day in the life of an undergraduate student in Fall 2020. (https://insidehighered.com/digital-learning/views/2020/06/24/envisioning-day-life-remote-undergraduate-student-fall-2020)
That seems optimistic... As does the companion piece: A day in the life of a remote instructor: Fall 2020 (https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/views/2020/06/24/day-life-remote-instructor-fall-opinion?_ga=2.51395692.433217478.1593372848-1545386289.1586275424)
But then again, it's nice to see some optimism every now and then.
Chronicle of Higher Ed has released a searchable database of US colleges and universities' reopening plan for Fall 2020 semester (ungated, at least for now):
https://www.chronicle.com/article/Here-s-a-List-of-Colleges-/248626
Hope it's useful.
Quote from: sprout on June 28, 2020, 01:11:44 PM
Quote from: spork on June 27, 2020, 04:07:46 PM
Envisioning a day in the life of an undergraduate student in Fall 2020. (https://insidehighered.com/digital-learning/views/2020/06/24/envisioning-day-life-remote-undergraduate-student-fall-2020)
That seems optimistic... As does the companion piece: A day in the life of a remote instructor: Fall 2020 (https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/views/2020/06/24/day-life-remote-instructor-fall-opinion?_ga=2.51395692.433217478.1593372848-1545386289.1586275424)
But then again, it's nice to see some optimism every now and then.
I agree that these seem pretty optimistic. I also note that both pieces were written by an "academic technology specialist," and I wonder if the author consulted any students or professors who expressed such optimism.
Lurching Towards Fall, Disaster on the Horizon (https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/just-visiting/lurching-toward-fall-disaster-horizon) from IHE.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 29, 2020, 07:48:59 AM
Lurching Towards Fall, Disaster on the Horizon (https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/just-visiting/lurching-toward-fall-disaster-horizon) from IHE.
Two worthwhile, succinct quotations from the article (I reversed the order because I think one explains the other.):
Quote
I am among the crowd who both believes that online learning can be done quite well, and that there is something irreplaceable about the experiences of face-to-face learning, when that learning is happening under reasonable conditions that is.
These are not reasonable conditions. Do not get me wrong. This is a loss. The experience of community is not the same at a distance or over the internet. It is not necessarily entirely absent, but it is not as present.
Quote
All of this is why I believe that an early commitment to online courses, coupled with support for students who lack access to the necessary technology and resources to learn online, will result in more and better learning than the hodgepodge of F2F, HyFlex, hybrid and online instruction many institutions appear to be attempting.
I totally agree with all of this.
^ I agree too. I've been beating this drum on my campus since it closed in mid-March. But once again I feel like Cassandra.
Quote from: spork on June 29, 2020, 08:57:03 AM
^ I agree too. I've been beating this drum on my campus since it closed in mid-March. But once again I feel like Cassandra.
I can just see spork, the newly-chosen President of his college, delivering his inaugural address:
"As I look out on all your smiling faces, I'm reminded of why this college is flat on its back!"
At my R1 there's an increasingly strong groundswell from faculty to do on-line only, if at all possible. Viva la revolucion?
Quote from: waterboy on June 29, 2020, 10:39:38 AM
At my R1 there's an increasingly strong groundswell from faculty to do on-line only, if at all possible. Viva la revolucion?
UMI professor weighs in, via
The New York Times:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/29/business/college-campus-coronavirus-danger.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/29/business/college-campus-coronavirus-danger.html).
Quote from: apl68 on June 29, 2020, 10:39:12 AM
Quote from: spork on June 29, 2020, 08:57:03 AM
^ I agree too. I've been beating this drum on my campus since it closed in mid-March. But once again I feel like Cassandra.
I can just see spork, the newly-chosen President of his college, delivering his inaugural address:
"As I look out on all your smiling faces, I'm reminded of why this college is flat on its back!"
Actually I would be saying something like "Whoever is first to figure out an realistic business model that does not require dorm and meal plan revenue for financial viability wins a prize of $50,000."
Some colleges cancel fall sports for 2020. (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/sports/colleges-return-coronavirus-cancellations.html)
Good riddance, I say.
Quote from: spork on June 30, 2020, 05:59:26 PM
Some colleges cancel fall sports for 2020. (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/sports/colleges-return-coronavirus-cancellations.html)
Good riddance, I say.
+1
Quote from: Bonnie on June 30, 2020, 06:15:30 PM
Quote from: spork on June 30, 2020, 05:59:26 PM
Some colleges cancel fall sports for 2020. (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/sports/colleges-return-coronavirus-cancellations.html)
Good riddance, I say.
+1
+1 Now that is great news!
Quote from: Cheerful on July 01, 2020, 01:38:48 PM
Quote from: Bonnie on June 30, 2020, 06:15:30 PM
Quote from: spork on June 30, 2020, 05:59:26 PM
Some colleges cancel fall sports for 2020. (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/sports/colleges-return-coronavirus-cancellations.html)
Good riddance, I say.
+1
+1 Now that is great news!
Though I tend to agree, the schools in the US that are (so far) canceling are top 20ish SLACs where sports are probably as well controlled with the least negative impacts on academics as anywhere. It's not like we are (yet) seeing Clemson or Ohio State, or Michigan, or Alabama cancelling fall sports.
And I have a child who will be a new student at one of the SLACs that canceled fall sports and you would not believe the extreme levels of whining happening on the parental facebook page.
Why would Michigan continue with fall sports, etc. yet cancel its hosting of a Presidential Debate?
Quote from: Cheerful on July 01, 2020, 01:51:16 PM
Why would Michigan continue with fall sports, etc. yet cancel its hosting of a Presidential Debate?
(In roughly ascending order of cynicism)
Because with fall sports they can control the audience and with a presidential debate they can't?
Because if they lock down the audience and impose distancing/face masks the people at risk in fall sports are just the athletes, while the attendees at a debate might put the whole university community at risk?
Because they make money on sports (sort of, anyway) and lose money on hosting a debate?
Because they want to lock in the incoming class before cancelling fall sports, but nobody cares about the debate?
College campus as food court:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/02/university-bridgeport-be-acquired-three-nearby-colleges (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/02/university-bridgeport-be-acquired-three-nearby-colleges).
Geographically-based tuition differentials (in-state vs. out-of-state) might eventually go away:
https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/shifting-geographies
:edit: make link clickable
The always though provoking Dan Drezner has just penned this op-ed on The Washington Post, on how would the pandemic reshape the landscape of how American colleges and universities be run:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/07/06/im-college-professor-here-is-what-i-think-about-college-preparations-covid-19-this-fall/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/07/06/im-college-professor-here-is-what-i-think-about-college-preparations-covid-19-this-fall/)
Quote"I have yet to see a viable university plan for reopening colleges for in-person instruction this fall. There have been a lot of variations of testing and tracing, or enforcing social distancing, or expanding the housing opportunities to make social distancing more possible. I credit university administrators for trying to make it work in a country that has abjectly failed at handling the novel coronavirus. That said, none of these plans seems to acknowledge that a) 18-year-olds will act like 18-year-olds; b) many of them are likely to be mildly symptomatic or asymptomatic spreaders of the virus; c) the question of a flare-up of cases on campus is not about "if" but about "when"; and d) quarantine and tracing procedures break down once a significant fraction of the student body is infected."
Quote from: spork on July 02, 2020, 10:05:33 AM
College campus as food court:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/02/university-bridgeport-be-acquired-three-nearby-colleges (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/02/university-bridgeport-be-acquired-three-nearby-colleges).
More on the Bridgeport situation at CHE:
https://www.chronicle.com/article/As-Colleges-Finances-Get/249134?cid=wcontentlist
Quote from: apl68 on July 08, 2020, 10:34:36 AM
Quote from: spork on July 02, 2020, 10:05:33 AM
College campus as food court:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/02/university-bridgeport-be-acquired-three-nearby-colleges (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/02/university-bridgeport-be-acquired-three-nearby-colleges).
More on the Bridgeport situation at CHE:
https://www.chronicle.com/article/As-Colleges-Finances-Get/249134?cid=wcontentlist
Maybe it's not a "salvage operation," but it's probably pretty close. Goodwin, Sacred Heart, and Paier will absorb whatever pieces look profitable to them -- e.g., programs in allied health professions -- and say bye-bye to the rest. It's a case of relatively healthier wolves eating a sick antelope.
Regardless, I agree wholeheartedly with this editorial:
https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/blogs/learning-innovation/most-important-higher-ed-story-still-online-degrees-scale (https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/blogs/learning-innovation/most-important-higher-ed-story-still-online-degrees-scale)
and disagree with much of this one:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/08/opinion/college-reopening-online-classes.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/08/opinion/college-reopening-online-classes.html).
Ivy League universities cancel all fall semester intercollegiate athletics:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/08/sports/ncaafootball/ivy-league-fall-sports-football-coronavirus.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/08/sports/ncaafootball/ivy-league-fall-sports-football-coronavirus.html).
Let the great unbundling begin.
Quote from: spork on July 08, 2020, 05:25:53 PM
Ivy League universities cancel all fall semester intercollegiate athletics:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/08/sports/ncaafootball/ivy-league-fall-sports-football-coronavirus.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/08/sports/ncaafootball/ivy-league-fall-sports-football-coronavirus.html).
Let the great unbundling begin.
This sort of encapsulates this whole thread. Some people have a series of pet ideas and they seem convinced that this crisis is going to result in everyone adopting them. It doesn't seem to bother those people that nobody actually wants these things, or sees any advantage in adopting them outside of the immediate crisis. Harvard isn't unbundling. Their fencing program will be back. Maybe everyone could promote their annoying ideas without seeming like they are so excited that all this death and disruption is going to lead to the glorious future of unbundling, vocational education, online instruction or whatever other fad they are peddling? Probably too much to ask.
Stanford just killed its fencing teams. Along with several others. Why? The programs were projected to create $70 million in losses over the next three years.
Quote from: Caracal on July 09, 2020, 04:39:35 AM
[. . . ]
online instruction or whatever other fad
[. . . ]
You think online instruction is a fad? Have you talked to any university CFOs over the last twenty years? Take a look at the curriculum at, for example, Georgia Tech, Arizona State University, or Miami-Dade Community College.
Quote from: spork on July 09, 2020, 10:37:39 AM
Stanford just killed its fencing teams. Along with several others. Why? The programs were projected to create $70 million in losses over the next three years.
Right, which has nothing to do with unbundling, whatever that means.
Quote from: spork on July 09, 2020, 10:37:39 AM
You think online instruction is a fad? Have you talked to any university CFOs over the last twenty years? Take a look at the curriculum at, for example, Georgia Tech, Arizona State University, or Miami-Dade Community College.
Fad was the wrong word, substitute "hobby horse."
It's 2022. What Does Life Look Like? (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/10/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-economy-two-years.html)
Quote from: spork on July 11, 2020, 02:31:22 AM
It's 2022. What Does Life Look Like? (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/10/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-economy-two-years.html)
The main lesson from history is that people are very bad at predicting how ongoing crisis will reshape their world. They also tend to assume that whatever is happening is likely to reshape the world in ways that align with their beliefs and preconceived ideas. Most of these predictions end up being wrong.
Quote from: spork on July 11, 2020, 02:31:22 AM
It's 2022. What Does Life Look Like? (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/10/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-economy-two-years.html)
A lot will depend on what happens in November.
The Chronicle: "Will College Athletics Survive? Should They?"
https://www.chronicle.com/article/Will-College-Athletics/248956 (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Will-College-Athletics/248956)
Paywalled.
Note the expenditures vs. revenue data.
"The only thing worse than sitting in a seminar room listening to three papers you actually don't want to hear is listening to three papers you don't want to hear over Zoom (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/15/askhistorians-hold-conference-over-reddit)"
Quote from: spork on July 15, 2020, 03:08:29 AM
"The only thing worse than sitting in a seminar room listening to three papers you actually don't want to hear is listening to three papers you don't want to hear over Zoom (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/15/askhistorians-hold-conference-over-reddit)"
Sigh. Our annual state professional conference is going to be digital-only this year. Not looking forward to it--but I suppose I'll dutifully attend a slate of virtual meetings that look interesting. I'm going to miss the chance to talk shop face-to-face.
Quote from: apl68 on July 15, 2020, 07:43:36 AM
Quote from: spork on July 15, 2020, 03:08:29 AM
"The only thing worse than sitting in a seminar room listening to three papers you actually don't want to hear is listening to three papers you don't want to hear over Zoom (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/15/askhistorians-hold-conference-over-reddit)"
Sigh. Our annual state professional conference is going to be digital-only this year. Not looking forward to it--but I suppose I'll dutifully attend a slate of virtual meetings that look interesting. I'm going to miss the chance to talk shop face-to-face.
At least on Zoom it's easier to start checking your e-mail or other favorite website without anyone noticing.
I've also been on a couple of Zoom meetings where the side chat was much more interesting and informative than what the speaker was doing.
Quote from: spork on July 13, 2020, 02:44:26 PM
The Chronicle: "Will College Athletics Survive? Should They?"
https://www.chronicle.com/article/Will-College-Athletics/248956 (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Will-College-Athletics/248956)
Paywalled.
Note the expenditures vs. revenue data.
Two NCAA Division III conferences and one NCAA Division II conference in my region have cancelled all fall sports. If all athletic department employees get furloughed for three months, that could result in a substantial savings. The savings would be even greater if the athletic department was eliminated entirely.
A minor change to the fall-spring academic calendar would simplify life for many, why hasn't it become the norm already?
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/07/29/pandemic-offers-opportunities-rethink-old-traditions-favor-smarter-alternatives (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/07/29/pandemic-offers-opportunities-rethink-old-traditions-favor-smarter-alternatives)
Quote from: spork on July 29, 2020, 02:33:57 AM
A minor change to the fall-spring academic calendar would simplify life for many, why hasn't it become the norm already?
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/07/29/pandemic-offers-opportunities-rethink-old-traditions-favor-smarter-alternatives (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/07/29/pandemic-offers-opportunities-rethink-old-traditions-favor-smarter-alternatives)
I welcome the change, especially since it would allow me to do some traveling in December.
One place I teach was planning to do that when they thought that the hybrid model would work. Their idea was to put all the final exams online after Thanksgiving. But that seemed to me exactly wrong: the one thing you want to do if you can is have exams in a well proctored space, such as a classroom. And you definitely don't want to be having a different proctored situation for each student, since that is organizational chaos. So ideally you have all exams before Thanksgiving, and then have other assignments, such as final projects or papers, due in December, and they can easily be done online. But that requires a fair amount of course rethinking.
Quote from: downer on July 29, 2020, 03:27:53 AM
Quote from: spork on July 29, 2020, 02:33:57 AM
A minor change to the fall-spring academic calendar would simplify life for many, why hasn't it become the norm already?
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/07/29/pandemic-offers-opportunities-rethink-old-traditions-favor-smarter-alternatives (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/07/29/pandemic-offers-opportunities-rethink-old-traditions-favor-smarter-alternatives)
I welcome the change, especially since it would allow me to do some traveling in December.
One place I teach was planning to do that when they thought that the hybrid model would work. Their idea was to put all the final exams online after Thanksgiving. But that seemed to me exactly wrong: the one thing you want to do if you can is have exams in a well proctored space, such as a classroom. And you definitely don't want to be having a different proctored situation for each student, since that is organizational chaos. So ideally you have all exams before Thanksgiving, and then have other assignments, such as final projects or papers, due in December, and they can easily be done online. But that requires a fair amount of course rethinking.
We have been asked to have all major assessments, including exams, finished before Thanksgiving. Technically, we will be coming back, but you can see where this is going.
Quote from: dr_codex on July 29, 2020, 05:42:11 AM
Quote from: downer on July 29, 2020, 03:27:53 AM
Quote from: spork on July 29, 2020, 02:33:57 AM
A minor change to the fall-spring academic calendar would simplify life for many, why hasn't it become the norm already?
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/07/29/pandemic-offers-opportunities-rethink-old-traditions-favor-smarter-alternatives (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/07/29/pandemic-offers-opportunities-rethink-old-traditions-favor-smarter-alternatives)
I welcome the change, especially since it would allow me to do some traveling in December.
One place I teach was planning to do that when they thought that the hybrid model would work. Their idea was to put all the final exams online after Thanksgiving. But that seemed to me exactly wrong: the one thing you want to do if you can is have exams in a well proctored space, such as a classroom. And you definitely don't want to be having a different proctored situation for each student, since that is organizational chaos. So ideally you have all exams before Thanksgiving, and then have other assignments, such as final projects or papers, due in December, and they can easily be done online. But that requires a fair amount of course rethinking.
We have been asked to have all major assessments, including exams, finished before Thanksgiving. Technically, we will be coming back, but you can see where this is going.
We've changed our schedule to start a week earlier than normal, and then students will get an extended 1 week Thanksgiving break and not come back-- the final week of instruction and final exams will all be online. I think this is wise-- our state is doing pretty well right now, and we'll have lots of testing and tracing on campus, but our students are from all over the country and world, so we really don't want them traveling and then coming back to campus potentially infected.
Quote from: Puget on July 29, 2020, 07:05:15 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on July 29, 2020, 05:42:11 AM
We have been asked to have all major assessments, including exams, finished before Thanksgiving. Technically, we will be coming back, but you can see where this is going.
We've changed our schedule to start a week earlier than normal, and then students will get an extended 1 week Thanksgiving break and not come back-- the final week of instruction and final exams will all be online. I think this is wise-- our state is doing pretty well right now, and we'll have lots of testing and tracing on campus, but our students are from all over the country and world, so we really don't want them traveling and then coming back to campus potentially infected.
Are there so few relatively local students that you won't have a fair number going home for weekends during the term? And is there very little interaction with the community off campus? I'd assume both of those would provide a similar level of risk, just more spread out in time.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 29, 2020, 07:22:35 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 29, 2020, 07:05:15 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on July 29, 2020, 05:42:11 AM
We have been asked to have all major assessments, including exams, finished before Thanksgiving. Technically, we will be coming back, but you can see where this is going.
We've changed our schedule to start a week earlier than normal, and then students will get an extended 1 week Thanksgiving break and not come back-- the final week of instruction and final exams will all be online. I think this is wise-- our state is doing pretty well right now, and we'll have lots of testing and tracing on campus, but our students are from all over the country and world, so we really don't want them traveling and then coming back to campus potentially infected.
Are there so few relatively local students that you won't have a fair number going home for weekends during the term? And is there very little interaction with the community off campus? I'd assume both of those would provide a similar level of risk, just more spread out in time.
Like I said, rates are quite low here currently (after a bad spring) and so risk within weekend distance is relatively low. Of course that could change, but people here are taking it seriously, masks are required, etc.. Students are being encouraged, but not required, to stay on campus as much as possible and not travel on the weekends. Everyone on campus is also being tested twice a week. So no, I don't think that is at all the same level of risk.
One of the things I think has been really problematic is that a lot of people aren't distinguishing levels of risk at all, which leads to either ignoring serious risks, or treating everything as so risky we can't make prudent decisions about what activities to resume. Most people outside the sciences are bad with probability in general (see also: misunderstanding election forecast models) and the amount of misinformation circulating makes things much worse.
Quote from: spork on July 29, 2020, 02:33:57 AM
A minor change to the fall-spring academic calendar would simplify life for many, why hasn't it become the norm already?
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/07/29/pandemic-offers-opportunities-rethink-old-traditions-favor-smarter-alternatives (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/07/29/pandemic-offers-opportunities-rethink-old-traditions-favor-smarter-alternatives)
This is how my undergrad did it, and still does. It was great for getting seasonal jobs.
New York Times columnist discovers Minerva:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/01/opinion/sunday/minerva-college-coronavirus.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/01/opinion/sunday/minerva-college-coronavirus.html).
https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/corona-virus
CNN podcast on reopening college
The Big Ten conference has "postponed" the fall football season. Does this mean massive furloughs to temporarily reduce athletic operations costs?
Columbus, OH, without football!!
Wish I were there to see it.
They'll probably keep over and die.*
(Not really. There was actually a very strong, good cultural life there, and I'm hearing that people are being creative--as you might expect, as they are everywhere--and making things work in good ways as well.)
M.
-=-=-=-
*for them as doesn't know, I was raised there and I hate football...no causality at all, none, nada, rien...
Quote from: dr_codex on July 29, 2020, 05:42:11 AM
Quote from: downer on July 29, 2020, 03:27:53 AM
Quote from: spork on July 29, 2020, 02:33:57 AM
A minor change to the fall-spring academic calendar would simplify life for many, why hasn't it become the norm already?
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/07/29/pandemic-offers-opportunities-rethink-old-traditions-favor-smarter-alternatives (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/07/29/pandemic-offers-opportunities-rethink-old-traditions-favor-smarter-alternatives)
I welcome the change, especially since it would allow me to do some traveling in December.
One place I teach was planning to do that when they thought that the hybrid model would work. Their idea was to put all the final exams online after Thanksgiving. But that seemed to me exactly wrong: the one thing you want to do if you can is have exams in a well proctored space, such as a classroom. And you definitely don't want to be having a different proctored situation for each student, since that is organizational chaos. So ideally you have all exams before Thanksgiving, and then have other assignments, such as final projects or papers, due in December, and they can easily be done online. But that requires a fair amount of course rethinking.
We have been asked to have all major assessments, including exams, finished before Thanksgiving. Technically, we will be coming back, but you can see where this is going.
We started yesterday for "Fall" and are done at Thanksgiving--seems like a good idea to me. No traveling back and forth and then we start back up after MLK Day. Of course it means more "quiet" time for us lab rats, which is always a plus...
New York Times: As Colleges Move Classes Online, Families Rebel Against the Cost (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/15/us/covid-college-tuition.html)
Quote from: spork on August 15, 2020, 10:44:10 AM
New York Times: As Colleges Move Classes Online, Families Rebel Against the Cost (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/15/us/covid-college-tuition.html)
It is hard to commiserate when article starts with a story of an unhappy student, who gets to live in a $1200-a-month apartment rented by parents. The article continues on with stories of upper middle class "woes" using "prime rib" metaphors.
Without knowing the actual issues the article mostly glosses over, I would have reveled in my schadenfreude.
Inside Higher Ed is reporting that the University of Iowa will eliminate its programs in men's gymnastics, men's and women's swimming and diving, and men's tennis because of a projected $100 million decline in athletics revenue.
I say eliminate all athletics and see what happens to the total university operations budget.
Quote from: spork on August 21, 2020, 01:58:15 PM
Inside Higher Ed is reporting that the University of Iowa will eliminate its programs in men's gymnastics, men's and women's swimming and diving, and men's tennis because of a projected $100 million decline in athletics revenue.
I say eliminate all athletics and see what happens to the total university operations budget.
Aw, hell, Spork, I say do swimming and especially diving on-line! :-)
The on-line requirement is a path to unbundling, but, alas, it's reversible.
Yup, gymnastics. THAT is the NCAA money pit.....
"the prioritization of Plexiglas over remote learning demonstrates a fundamental lack of imagination in higher education" (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/09/04/have-colleges-seized-or-missed-opportunity-improve-remote-learning-opinion)
On-line diving. Does that mean diving with a camera so that spectators online can come along for the ride? Because that might actually be pretty exciting.
My school just announced that there will be no more snow days. If the campus is closed, you still meet your class online.
When asked about the f2f-only classes, the answer was - they need to teach online too.
I have a few faculty members who are balking, hard
I wonder how much longer snow days will even be a thing in our region? Snow itself is rapidly becoming a thing of the past here.
Quote from: apl68 on September 15, 2020, 08:18:45 AM
I wonder how much longer snow days will even be a thing in our region? Snow itself is rapidly becoming a thing of the past here.
Yeah, I think they're goners. It's too bad, because they're one of the absolute joys of being a kid. But then again, there's hardly any snow where I live now to begin with. Freezing rain days aren't anything like as fun for anyone as snow days are/were.
Regions that get lots of snow usually bet on a certain number of snow days in the schedule, though, so I'm not sure how or whether they'll adjust that.
Quote from: FishProf on September 15, 2020, 07:29:12 AM
My school just announced that there will be no more snow days. If the campus is closed, you still meet your class online.
When asked about the f2f-only classes, the answer was - they need to teach online too.
I have a few faculty members who are balking, hard
By f2f-only, do you mean courses like science labs?
Quote from: spork on September 15, 2020, 08:38:49 AM
Quote from: FishProf on September 15, 2020, 07:29:12 AM
My school just announced that there will be no more snow days. If the campus is closed, you still meet your class online.
When asked about the f2f-only classes, the answer was - they need to teach online too.
I have a few faculty members who are balking, hard
By f2f-only, do you mean courses like science labs?
Some, yes. But also f2f lecture-only classes.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 15, 2020, 08:34:41 AM
Regions that get lots of snow usually bet on a certain number of snow days in the schedule, though, so I'm not sure how or whether they'll adjust that.
It's going to be a challenge. I've seen projections that for the next couple of decades regions that still get a lot of snow will have wild swings between very little snow one year and exceptionally severe snowfalls the next. Then in the following decades it will peter out altogether, like we're seeing now farther south.
So in the near term some places might be seeing no snow days at all one year, then a bunch of them the next, then maybe one or two after that.
Because there is always an appropriate XKCD (https://xkcd.com/1321/)
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 15, 2020, 08:34:41 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 15, 2020, 08:18:45 AM
I wonder how much longer snow days will even be a thing in our region? Snow itself is rapidly becoming a thing of the past here.
Yeah, I think they're goners. It's too bad, because they're one of the absolute joys of being a kid. But then again, there's hardly any snow where I live now to begin with. Freezing rain days aren't anything like as fun for anyone as snow days are/were.
Regions that get lots of snow usually bet on a certain number of snow days in the schedule, though, so I'm not sure how or whether they'll adjust that.
In general, climate change isn't going to result in less snow. In fact, it might result in more, at least as far as I understand it. I'm sure it might vary by local area, but we should actually expect more extreme weather of all kinds.
Quote from: Caracal on September 15, 2020, 10:52:55 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 15, 2020, 08:34:41 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 15, 2020, 08:18:45 AM
I wonder how much longer snow days will even be a thing in our region? Snow itself is rapidly becoming a thing of the past here.
Yeah, I think they're goners. It's too bad, because they're one of the absolute joys of being a kid. But then again, there's hardly any snow where I live now to begin with. Freezing rain days aren't anything like as fun for anyone as snow days are/were.
Regions that get lots of snow usually bet on a certain number of snow days in the schedule, though, so I'm not sure how or whether they'll adjust that.
In general, climate change isn't going to result in less snow. In fact, it might result in more, at least as far as I understand it. I'm sure it might vary by local area, but we should actually expect more extreme weather of all kinds.
I wasn't clear, but FWIW I wasn't talking about climate change, but about snow days being replaced by zoom days.
Quote from: Caracal on September 15, 2020, 10:52:55 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 15, 2020, 08:34:41 AM
Quote from: apl68 on September 15, 2020, 08:18:45 AM
I wonder how much longer snow days will even be a thing in our region? Snow itself is rapidly becoming a thing of the past here.
Yeah, I think they're goners. It's too bad, because they're one of the absolute joys of being a kid. But then again, there's hardly any snow where I live now to begin with. Freezing rain days aren't anything like as fun for anyone as snow days are/were.
Regions that get lots of snow usually bet on a certain number of snow days in the schedule, though, so I'm not sure how or whether they'll adjust that.
In general, climate change isn't going to result in less snow. In fact, it might result in more, at least as far as I understand it. I'm sure it might vary by local area, but we should actually expect more extreme weather of all kinds.
More extreme weather, including heavy snow falls, in the near term. In the long term snow will probably become less common, and eventually cease, across wide areas. Where we live an already rare phenomenon is now disappearing entirely. Farther north snow is projected to get more uneven and extreme for a time, then eventually fade as climate change progresses.
That's one argument for using the term "climate change" instead of "global warming," even though it's warming that's driving the change overall. A lot of people in areas that still have snowfall get honestly confused when they keep hearing about "global warming," and yet their winter storms seem to be getting worse.
In my region, we have "hurricane days" now formally budgeted into the Fall semesters. It was a lot less formal a couple of decades ago, but with hurricanes pounding our region like clockwork almost every year now, it's nice to have a couple extra days built into the term schedule for potential floodings, power outages, campus closures, regional evacuations, etc...
At some point, I'm wondering when to start seeing institutions budget in "fire days", "heat wave days", etc...
This is additional reason to permanently put online whatever can be put online, as discussed in this IHE editorial (https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/learning-innovation/what-if-everything-online-forever). Don't know about my colleagues, but I'm never holding in-person office hours ever again. As for meetings, attendance has been higher since they moved to Webex and Zoom. For the rest of my career I will do my darnedest never to have to drive to campus just for a meeting.
My life would be easier if the university turned my office into a dorm room.
Zoom days in lieu of snow, hurricane, etc days only work if you have power. The last hurricane that hit us, my house was out for 2 days, but other parts of the city lost power for over 2 weeks.
I will say the pandemic has forced me to do what I've long wanted, which is to flip my classes and use our gathering times for case studies and more active learning. Now to just get the students used to that idea.
Quote from: Aster on September 16, 2020, 11:01:12 AM
In my region, we have "hurricane days" now formally budgeted into the Fall semesters. It was a lot less formal a couple of decades ago, but with hurricanes pounding our region like clockwork almost every year now, it's nice to have a couple extra days built into the term schedule for potential floodings, power outages, campus closures, regional evacuations, etc...
At some point, I'm wondering when to start seeing institutions budget in "fire days", "heat wave days", etc...
Now that hurricanes are beginning to reach all the way inland to states like ours (For several hours during Laura the view outside our windows looked just like standard hurricane footage, minus the waves and palm trees), we may end up seeing "hurricane days" instead of snow days too.
Inspired by:
Quote from: jimbogumbo on September 26, 2020, 02:34:21 PM
I will respectfully disagree about statisticians. What many folks think are esoteric details are in fact needed discussions related to crucial assumptions. I know we don't live in anywhere close to an ideal world, but if we did there would be more people with deep field knowledge who also have a critical understanding of statistics as a statistician knows the field. There are very few of them. Where the statisticians are most needed is when the data collection and decisions of how to analyze the data are in the design process. Once that is done, of course rely on a nuts and bolts person.
This is an area where the misuses of statistics (which are rampant) can far too often be traced back to people who know the mechanics of a test without needed background as to why NOT to use it.
That, and journalists and administrators of course.
and
Quote from: Stockmann on September 26, 2020, 07:05:49 PM
The point I was trying to make, clearly badly, was not that statisticians' expertise was unnecessary to folks in other fields, but that what folks in other fields probably need is something like "the tools you need to make the most of your data are X, Y and Z and this is how you use them" or stuff like how to address objections that your data isn't sufficiently abundant or too noisy or whatever, or how to spot bad analyses by others. Not the gory details of the nuts and bolts behind tests and models - not that they're not important, but they're not immediately important to most people who aren't statisticians.
I'm reminded of illusory precision, what maps of Africa demonstrate about the evolution of ignorance (https://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/dishpan.html), heuristics, and the innovator's dilemma. A simple heuristic would seem to be "if the absolute number of potential customers in your market is decreasing over time, find another market that has different customers." Yet my university stuck with a business model dependent on undergraduate dorm and meal plan revenue, even though the number of area high school graduates has been declining for two decades and will continue to decline for at least another two decades.
Quote from: mythbuster on September 16, 2020, 11:36:13 AM
I will say the pandemic has forced me to do what I've long wanted, which is to flip my classes and use our gathering times for case studies and more active learning. Now to just get the students used to that idea.
I think this illustrates something that gets missed in all these discussions of how the pandemic will fundamentally change everything forever. The things that might change are ones in which people disliked the previous way, but had trouble moving past it for various reasons. But, the tendency in the moment is to overestimate the extent of the changes.
To take an example, I have learned that individual meetings with students on Zoom work pretty well. However, unlike Spork, in person office hours and meetings with students have never been a big inconvenience for me. I only meet with students at times when I'm going to be in my office anyway. I can't see why I would want to only meet with students on Zoom in the future. However, I require students to meet with me about paper drafts and proposals and that often results in a week or two where on my teaching days I have wall to wall meetings and classes without a break. Pushing some of those meetings to my non teaching days on Zoom would make sense.
However, most of the things I'm doing don't make my life easier, they make it more complicated. There's this bizarre sort of pandemic/techno optimism where everyone assumes that all of this is going so well that everyone is going to come out of it having found marvelous and exciting new ways to teach. In reality, most of us are just teaching crummier classes because of the circumstances.
Quote from: Caracal on September 27, 2020, 08:43:19 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on September 16, 2020, 11:36:13 AM
I will say the pandemic has forced me to do what I've long wanted, which is to flip my classes and use our gathering times for case studies and more active learning. Now to just get the students used to that idea.
I think this illustrates something that gets missed in all these discussions of how the pandemic will fundamentally change everything forever. The things that might change are ones in which people disliked the previous way, but had trouble moving past it for various reasons. But, the tendency in the moment is to overestimate the extent of the changes.
To take an example, I have learned that individual meetings with students on Zoom work pretty well. However, unlike Spork, in person office hours and meetings with students have never been a big inconvenience for me. I only meet with students at times when I'm going to be in my office anyway. I can't see why I would want to only meet with students on Zoom in the future.
However, I require students to meet with me about paper drafts and proposals and that often results in a week or two where on my teaching days I have wall to wall meetings and classes without a break. Pushing some of those meetings to my non teaching days on Zoom would make sense.
However, most of the things I'm doing don't make my life easier, they make it more complicated.
Fo me, with labs, it's some of both. Changing to remote is
a lot of work, and impossible for some things, but there are some things that can be done virtually that couldn't or wouldn't be done in person. (For instance, simulations make it easy to change individual parameters and see results; that is often too time consuming in person. In simulation, they can try things which would be dangerous in person and see
why they wouldn't do that in person. ) Also, asynchronous delivery gets rid of tight restrictions on the time to complete a lab.
So not universally "better" (or "worse", for that matter), but with
different strengths and weaknesses. I'm trying to figure out whether/how I can incorporate some of those things when we return to normal.
Quote
There's this bizarre sort of pandemic/techno optimism where everyone assumes that all of this is going so well that everyone is going to come out of it having found marvelous and exciting new ways to teach. In reality, most of us are just teaching crummier classes because of the circumstances.
6 weeks in?
- Zoom classes don't work. They aren't terrible on an emergency basis. Still, too much is missing from the in-class experience.
- Discussion boards - students are writing much better and plagiarizing less than when I had them turn in their papers directly to me. Maybe because they know their peers are watching, they are more careful. And they are learning from one another.
- They don't like posting their 3 required responses, but they are starting to take on a life of their own and sparking some back-and-forth. We haven't achieved "lively discussion" yet. I may keep the discussion boards after all this is over, assuming I keep teaching and don't go back into administration.
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 27, 2020, 12:27:55 PM
6 weeks in?
- Zoom classes don't work. They aren't terrible on an emergency basis. Still, too much is missing from the in-class experience.
[. . . ]
What percent of last year's students will be able and willing to pay for the "in-class experience" next year? What's the number of potential students who have never been able or willing to pay for the "in-class experience"?
Quote from: mythbuster on September 16, 2020, 11:36:13 AM
I will say the pandemic has forced me to do what I've long wanted, which is to flip my classes and use our gathering times for case studies and more active learning. Now to just get the students used to that idea.
Ditto.
Quote from: spork on September 27, 2020, 12:53:33 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 27, 2020, 12:27:55 PM
6 weeks in?
- Zoom classes don't work. They aren't terrible on an emergency basis. Still, too much is missing from the in-class experience.
[. . . ]
What percent of last year's students will be able and willing to pay for the "in-class experience" next year? What's the number of potential students who have never been able or willing to pay for the "in-class experience"?
I'm confused. It costs the same amount and will next semester as well. I don't even understand what sort of model you're proposing. If students receive the same credit for online courses, why exactly are they supposed to pay less? There are larger issues of college cost, but you're engaging in weird technocratic fantasies about the magical and transformative benefits of unbundling.
Quote from: Caracal on September 28, 2020, 04:18:43 AM
Quote from: spork on September 27, 2020, 12:53:33 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 27, 2020, 12:27:55 PM
6 weeks in?
- Zoom classes don't work. They aren't terrible on an emergency basis. Still, too much is missing from the in-class experience.
[. . . ]
What percent of last year's students will be able and willing to pay for the "in-class experience" next year? What's the number of potential students who have never been able or willing to pay for the "in-class experience"?
I'm confused. It costs the same amount and will next semester as well. I don't even understand what sort of model you're proposing. If students receive the same credit for online courses, why exactly are they supposed to pay less? There are larger issues of college cost, but you're engaging in weird technocratic fantasies about the magical and transformative benefits of unbundling.
The number of people under 18 who took AP exams or enrolled in college courses more than doubled between 1995 and 2005 (https://ccrc.tc.columbia.edu/media/k2/attachments/role-advanced-placement-dual-enrollment.pdf), and media reports suggest it has continued to increase since then. Generally it's far cheaper for students to earn college credit while in high school than at a four-year university. There's your unbundling, which makes college credit hours more affordable for the non-wealthy.
Quote from: spork on September 29, 2020, 08:03:31 AM
Quote from: Caracal on September 28, 2020, 04:18:43 AM
Quote from: spork on September 27, 2020, 12:53:33 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 27, 2020, 12:27:55 PM
6 weeks in?
- Zoom classes don't work. They aren't terrible on an emergency basis. Still, too much is missing from the in-class experience.
[. . . ]
What percent of last year's students will be able and willing to pay for the "in-class experience" next year? What's the number of potential students who have never been able or willing to pay for the "in-class experience"?
I'm confused. It costs the same amount and will next semester as well. I don't even understand what sort of model you're proposing. If students receive the same credit for online courses, why exactly are they supposed to pay less? There are larger issues of college cost, but you're engaging in weird technocratic fantasies about the magical and transformative benefits of unbundling.
The number of people under 18 who took AP exams or enrolled in college courses more than doubled between 1995 and 2005 (https://ccrc.tc.columbia.edu/media/k2/attachments/role-advanced-placement-dual-enrollment.pdf), and media reports suggest it has continued to increase since then. Generally it's far cheaper for students to earn college credit while in high school than at a four-year university. There's your unbundling, which makes college credit hours more affordable for the non-wealthy.
Because the value of the "in-class" experience has always been the "on-campus" experience, in which a student gets to leave their home environment, meet lots of new people, and come into adulthood with lots of other young adults.
We used to offer free college tuition for in-state universities, and generous financial aid to make sure everyone could afford to have this experience. You know, social mobility and all of that.
Quote from: spork on September 29, 2020, 08:03:31 AM
Quote from: Caracal on September 28, 2020, 04:18:43 AM
Quote from: spork on September 27, 2020, 12:53:33 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 27, 2020, 12:27:55 PM
6 weeks in?
- Zoom classes don't work. They aren't terrible on an emergency basis. Still, too much is missing from the in-class experience.
[. . . ]
What percent of last year's students will be able and willing to pay for the "in-class experience" next year? What's the number of potential students who have never been able or willing to pay for the "in-class experience"?
I'm confused. It costs the same amount and will next semester as well. I don't even understand what sort of model you're proposing. If students receive the same credit for online courses, why exactly are they supposed to pay less? There are larger issues of college cost, but you're engaging in weird technocratic fantasies about the magical and transformative benefits of unbundling.
The number of people under 18 who took AP exams or enrolled in college courses more than doubled between 1995 and 2005 (https://ccrc.tc.columbia.edu/media/k2/attachments/role-advanced-placement-dual-enrollment.pdf), and media reports suggest it has continued to increase since then. Generally it's far cheaper for students to earn college credit while in high school than at a four-year university. There's your unbundling, which makes college credit hours more affordable for the non-wealthy.
Is community college unbundling then? Students can use it in a very similar way to the way they can use AP courses. But, again, it's a weird buzzword, not an actual proposal.
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 29, 2020, 08:40:52 AM
Because the value of the "in-class" experience has always been the "on-campus" experience, in which a student gets to leave their home environment, meet lots of new people, and come into adulthood with lots of other young adults.
We used to offer free college tuition for in-state universities, and generous financial aid to make sure everyone could afford to have this experience. You know, social mobility and all of that.
One of the effects of this year under covid may be to establish a dollar value for the "in-class" experience. Being able to quantify it as a portion of the entire cost would be very helpful.
And very dangerous to certain institutions, depending on what it turns out to be.
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 29, 2020, 11:48:08 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 29, 2020, 08:40:52 AM
Because the value of the "in-class" experience has always been the "on-campus" experience, in which a student gets to leave their home environment, meet lots of new people, and come into adulthood with lots of other young adults.
We used to offer free college tuition for in-state universities, and generous financial aid to make sure everyone could afford to have this experience. You know, social mobility and all of that.
One of the effects of this year under covid may be to establish a dollar value for the "in-class" experience. Being able to quantify it as a portion of the entire cost would be very helpful.
And very dangerous to certain institutions, depending on what it turns out to be.
Online classes aren't new. Unless they are part of some sort of separate distance education program, you pay the same amount for the credit hours. What exactly would be the mechanism by which this year would establish some different rate. The money that students save this year all involves things that they could opt out of regardless. Most college students attend places where there is no requirement to live on campus and lots of them don't.
Quote from: Caracal on September 29, 2020, 12:38:11 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 29, 2020, 11:48:08 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 29, 2020, 08:40:52 AM
Because the value of the "in-class" experience has always been the "on-campus" experience, in which a student gets to leave their home environment, meet lots of new people, and come into adulthood with lots of other young adults.
We used to offer free college tuition for in-state universities, and generous financial aid to make sure everyone could afford to have this experience. You know, social mobility and all of that.
One of the effects of this year under covid may be to establish a dollar value for the "in-class" experience. Being able to quantify it as a portion of the entire cost would be very helpful.
And very dangerous to certain institutions, depending on what it turns out to be.
Online classes aren't new. Unless they are part of some sort of separate distance education program, you pay the same amount for the credit hours. What exactly would be the mechanism by which this year would establish some different rate. The money that students save this year all involves things that they could opt out of regardless. Most college students attend places where there is no requirement to live on campus and lots of them don't.
Yes. It's not as though it wasn't already common knowledge that commuting or taking classes online was less expensive than living on campus. If anything, this year of not being able to have a normal campus experience is likely to convince many students of that experience's value.
Whether they'll be able to afford the old-fashioned on-campus experience in the future is another question. We might see more students commuting and taking online classes in the future because they have to, not because they necessarily want to.
Quote from: Caracal on September 29, 2020, 12:38:11 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 29, 2020, 11:48:08 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 29, 2020, 08:40:52 AM
Because the value of the "in-class" experience has always been the "on-campus" experience, in which a student gets to leave their home environment, meet lots of new people, and come into adulthood with lots of other young adults.
We used to offer free college tuition for in-state universities, and generous financial aid to make sure everyone could afford to have this experience. You know, social mobility and all of that.
One of the effects of this year under covid may be to establish a dollar value for the "in-class" experience. Being able to quantify it as a portion of the entire cost would be very helpful.
And very dangerous to certain institutions, depending on what it turns out to be.
Online classes aren't new. Unless they are part of some sort of separate distance education program, you pay the same amount for the credit hours. What exactly would be the mechanism by which this year would establish some different rate. The money that students save this year all involves things that they could opt out of regardless. Most college students attend places where there is no requirement to live on campus and lots of them don't.
It's not just about living on campus or not; even off campus students can come to parties, attend on-campus events, etc. When
none of that is available the number of students who choose to proceed vs. the number who decide not to will give an indication of how big the "market" is for the education without
any of the
in-person experience. It has the potential to level the playing field between places offering similar programs but differing greatly in what amenities and experiences they offer. Under these circumstances, differences in tuition between institutions will potentially be
much more favourable to cheaper places without lots of amenities but with good academic reputations. This is a different question than how many people in the past were interested
specifically in online programs.
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 29, 2020, 01:31:09 PM
Quote from: Caracal on September 29, 2020, 12:38:11 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 29, 2020, 11:48:08 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 29, 2020, 08:40:52 AM
Because the value of the "in-class" experience has always been the "on-campus" experience, in which a student gets to leave their home environment, meet lots of new people, and come into adulthood with lots of other young adults.
We used to offer free college tuition for in-state universities, and generous financial aid to make sure everyone could afford to have this experience. You know, social mobility and all of that.
One of the effects of this year under covid may be to establish a dollar value for the "in-class" experience. Being able to quantify it as a portion of the entire cost would be very helpful.
And very dangerous to certain institutions, depending on what it turns out to be.
Online classes aren't new. Unless they are part of some sort of separate distance education program, you pay the same amount for the credit hours. What exactly would be the mechanism by which this year would establish some different rate. The money that students save this year all involves things that they could opt out of regardless. Most college students attend places where there is no requirement to live on campus and lots of them don't.
It's not just about living on campus or not; even off campus students can come to parties, attend on-campus events, etc. When none of that is available the number of students who choose to proceed vs. the number who decide not to will give an indication of how big the "market" is for the education without any of the in-person experience. It has the potential to level the playing field between places offering similar programs but differing greatly in what amenities and experiences they offer. Under these circumstances, differences in tuition between institutions will potentially be much more favourable to cheaper places without lots of amenities but with good academic reputations. This is a different question than how many people in the past were interested specifically in online programs.
How sad is that? That we attempt to assign a dollar value to an important rite of passage for people entering the professional and educated classes.
QuoteHow sad is that? That we attempt to assign a dollar value to an important rite of passage for people entering the professional and educated classes.
There's no such thing as a free rite of passage. :-)
Quote from: dismalist on September 29, 2020, 07:09:23 PM
QuoteHow sad is that? That we attempt to assign a dollar value to an important rite of passage for people entering the professional and educated classes.
There's no such thing as a free rite of passage. :-)
And the very assumption that it is an
important rite of passage begs for evidence to support that. Specifically,
why is it important, and
to whom? The "attempt to assign a dollar value" is looking for the answer as seen by students and their families,
who have to pay for it, not by academics and others
who have a vested interest in trying to claim the value is as high as possible.
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 30, 2020, 05:39:51 AM
Quote from: dismalist on September 29, 2020, 07:09:23 PM
QuoteHow sad is that? That we attempt to assign a dollar value to an important rite of passage for people entering the professional and educated classes.
There's no such thing as a free rite of passage. :-)
And the very assumption that it is an important rite of passage begs for evidence to support that. Specifically, why is it important, and to whom? The "attempt to assign a dollar value" is looking for the answer as seen by students and their families, who have to pay for it, not by academics and others who have a vested interest in trying to claim the value is as high as possible.
For much of the world, the norm is little to no "campus experience" as it been defined in the USA.
An inside view of the thin margins that exist for all but a few U.S. universities:
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/10/16-weeks-and-5-days-university-arizona/616557/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/10/16-weeks-and-5-days-university-arizona/616557/).
Got to keep the campus open to bring in tuition from out-of-state students.
Bleah. Arizona. One of the worst states in the U.S. for education. The state legislature gutted Higher Ed funding like a fish over a decade ago.
QuoteArizona's state legislature has cut funding for the state's universities by more than half since the Great Recession, from $10,300 a student in 2008 to $4,800 a student last year. Arizona ranks 43rd in the nation in higher-education spending, per student.
IHE op-ed writer uses the dreaded "unbundling":
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/10/06/benefits-academics-only-college-opinion (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/10/06/benefits-academics-only-college-opinion).
Quote from: spork on October 07, 2020, 04:47:09 AM
IHE op-ed writer uses the dreaded "unbundling":
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/10/06/benefits-academics-only-college-opinion (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/10/06/benefits-academics-only-college-opinion).
A couple of fascinating quotations:
Quote
The new face of college necessitated by the pandemic has raised fundamental questions among significantly more people about whether traditional residential education is worth it.
...
Thus, debate is needed as to whether students and their families should have the option of attending a different sort of college -- one focused primarily upon academics
...
That a college or university would concentrate exclusively on academics and direct academic support services is not unprecedented internationally.
The fact that this is such radical thinking in the U.S. is kind of mind-boggling, since in most other places the "residential" aspect only exists
to accomodate students who live far enough away for it to be a necessity. It's not
the goal of the institution. (The one exception, perhaps, being religious institutions, where controlling all kinds of lifestyle factors is intentional.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 07, 2020, 05:40:41 AM
Quote from: spork on October 07, 2020, 04:47:09 AM
IHE op-ed writer uses the dreaded "unbundling":
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/10/06/benefits-academics-only-college-opinion (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/10/06/benefits-academics-only-college-opinion).
A couple of fascinating quotations:
Quote
The new face of college necessitated by the pandemic has raised fundamental questions among significantly more people about whether traditional residential education is worth it.
...
Thus, debate is needed as to whether students and their families should have the option of attending a different sort of college -- one focused primarily upon academics
...
That a college or university would concentrate exclusively on academics and direct academic support services is not unprecedented internationally.
The fact that this is such radical thinking in the U.S. is kind of mind-boggling, since in most other places the "residential" aspect only exists to accomodate students who live far enough away for it to be a necessity. It's not the goal of the institution. (The one exception, perhaps, being religious institutions, where controlling all kinds of lifestyle factors is intentional.)
A pretty large percentage of college students in the U.S go to schools where this is basically how it works. If you look at most major metro regional universities, usually half or more of the students are commuters. The ones who do live on campus probably are attracted to the social aspects, but it is also just about convenience.
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 07, 2020, 05:40:41 AM
Quote from: spork on October 07, 2020, 04:47:09 AM
IHE op-ed writer uses the dreaded "unbundling":
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/10/06/benefits-academics-only-college-opinion (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/10/06/benefits-academics-only-college-opinion).
A couple of fascinating quotations:
Quote
The new face of college necessitated by the pandemic has raised fundamental questions among significantly more people about whether traditional residential education is worth it.
...
Thus, debate is needed as to whether students and their families should have the option of attending a different sort of college -- one focused primarily upon academics
...
That a college or university would concentrate exclusively on academics and direct academic support services is not unprecedented internationally.
The fact that this is such radical thinking in the U.S. is kind of mind-boggling, since in most other places the "residential" aspect only exists to accomodate students who live far enough away for it to be a necessity. It's not the goal of the institution. (The one exception, perhaps, being religious institutions, where controlling all kinds of lifestyle factors is intentional.)
It's worth remembering that the U.S. covers a huge settled area. The population hasn't historically been concentrated in a handful of metropolitan areas. Even today, a lot of students don't live within easy commuting distance of any college. The U.S. also has historically had a much greater variety of higher education to choose from--you might live a long way from your school of choice.
Still...you're right about Americans focusing a lot on the residential aspect of college life. It's widespread conventional wisdom that going off to college, instead of commuting to whatever happens to be nearest, is a desirable experience in and of itself. I lived within easy commuting distance of Alma Mater. But since I won a scholarship that included room and board, my parents encouraged me to live on campus and participate in campus life. Alma Mater is a church-affiliated school, so they did figure I'd meet with good influences there.
Quote from: apl68 on October 07, 2020, 06:57:37 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 07, 2020, 05:40:41 AM
Quote from: spork on October 07, 2020, 04:47:09 AM
IHE op-ed writer uses the dreaded "unbundling":
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/10/06/benefits-academics-only-college-opinion (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/10/06/benefits-academics-only-college-opinion).
A couple of fascinating quotations:
Quote
The new face of college necessitated by the pandemic has raised fundamental questions among significantly more people about whether traditional residential education is worth it.
...
Thus, debate is needed as to whether students and their families should have the option of attending a different sort of college -- one focused primarily upon academics
...
That a college or university would concentrate exclusively on academics and direct academic support services is not unprecedented internationally.
The fact that this is such radical thinking in the U.S. is kind of mind-boggling, since in most other places the "residential" aspect only exists to accomodate students who live far enough away for it to be a necessity. It's not the goal of the institution. (The one exception, perhaps, being religious institutions, where controlling all kinds of lifestyle factors is intentional.)
It's worth remembering that the U.S. covers a huge settled area. The population hasn't historically been concentrated in a handful of metropolitan areas. Even today, a lot of students don't live within easy commuting distance of any college. The U.S. also has historically had a much greater variety of higher education to choose from--you might live a long way from your school of choice.
Still...you're right about Americans focusing a lot on the residential aspect of college life. It's widespread conventional wisdom that going off to college, instead of commuting to whatever happens to be nearest, is a desirable experience in and of itself. I lived within easy commuting distance of Alma Mater. But since I won a scholarship that included room and board, my parents encouraged me to live on campus and participate in campus life. Alma Mater is a church-affiliated school, so they did figure I'd meet with good influences there.
One thought that occurred to me is that perhaps this is
why some small campuses have had big protests, etc. (Such as Evergreen State College) Ironically, trying to produce a strong "community" experience may make students feel
more out of place if they are first generation or from a different culture. On the other hand, a place where students commute, and are only on campus for classes, etc. doesn't feel that disconnected since it doesn't affect so many aspects of life.
I would imagine that a commuter campus just feels like a natural step up from K-12. You go there to take classes, you live your life somewhere else.
Eastern Carolina U. athletics has a "deficit" of $4.7 million so it's instituting salary cuts and furloughs, and possibly eliminating some sports programs (I say "possibly" because no specific programs are identified):
https://ecupirates.com/news/2020/10/19/general-an-update-from-ad-jon-gilbert.aspx (https://ecupirates.com/news/2020/10/19/general-an-update-from-ad-jon-gilbert.aspx).
It the money spent on athletics was instead spent on instruction and academic support services, I wonder what would happen to the quality of an education from ECU?
Quote from: apl68 on October 07, 2020, 10:42:40 AM
I would imagine that a commuter campus just feels like a natural step up from K-12. You go there to take classes, you live your life somewhere else.
So much so that we call it "teaching thirteenth grade."
Quote from: histchick on October 22, 2020, 07:49:29 AM
Quote from: apl68 on October 07, 2020, 10:42:40 AM
I would imagine that a commuter campus just feels like a natural step up from K-12. You go there to take classes, you live your life somewhere else.
So much so that we call it "teaching thirteenth grade."
In our area there are a number of CC's within commuting distance of one another. Local kids graduate from HS and choose one farther away from their local CC just to meet new kids and get away from the HS scene. Which works really well until a bunch of their old classmates ended up choosing the same school...
Quote from: histchick on October 22, 2020, 07:49:29 AM
Quote from: apl68 on October 07, 2020, 10:42:40 AM
I would imagine that a commuter campus just feels like a natural step up from K-12. You go there to take classes, you live your life somewhere else.
So much so that we call it "teaching thirteenth grade."
Some commuter schools are good, others are not. For the ones that are not, they attend to attract the less accomplished HS students. So teaching there is quite a lot worse than teaching at some high schools. It can be like teaching 9th grade.
But the thing about college is that not everyone has to pass, and students who lack motivation soon stop coming. That makes it easier.
"The average net price to attend Northeastern is $43,000 a year and students and parents are increasingly questioning why they are spending so much money on a largely remote learning experience. Some have complained about professors starting the semester in person and then moving to remote after a few weeks. However, some professors said that even when they teach on campus, many students choose to take the class virtually from their dorm room." (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/10/28/metro/after-backlash-faculty-northeastern-eases-restrictions-remote-teaching/)
The Chronicle: Colleges have shed 10% of their employees since the pandemic began (https://www.chronicle.com/article/colleges-have-shed-a-tenth-of-their-employees-since-the-pandemic-began). (paywalled)
Chronicle article on survey data, paywalled:
Colleges Grapple With Grim Financial Realities (https://www.chronicle.com/article/colleges-grapple-with-grim-financial-realities).
Highlights:
"Many of the surveyed institutions — particularly small private colleges — offered high discount rates and saw significant declines in net-tuition revenue. Smaller institutions and those with lower graduation rates were also more likely to lose value on their endowments."
"Larger institutions, meanwhile, were more likely to lose revenue on athletic events — particularly if they had an NCAA football program."
"the survey confirms some assumptions about the pressures colleges are facing and indicates that institutions with size, prestige, and higher graduation rates — qualities that provided 'preservative effects' in the crisis — will pull away from smaller, poorer institutions."
"Nearly half of the private baccalaureate colleges and a quarter of private master's colleges responding to the survey noted net tuition revenue decreases of 5 percent or more. Colleges that saw losses of more than 5 percent also held only online classes in the fall, instituted furloughs, or announced layoffs."
"The survey revealed fewer vulnerabilities for public institutions in discounting or meeting revenue goals. But again, public colleges – perhaps because of their generally larger size — were more likely to see declining revenue for athletics, dining, and residence halls. They were also more prone to spend money on Covid-19 testing and surveillance."
Quote from: spork on December 01, 2020, 08:32:33 AM
Chronicle article on survey data, paywalled:
Colleges Grapple With Grim Financial Realities (https://www.chronicle.com/article/colleges-grapple-with-grim-financial-realities).
Highlights:
"The survey revealed fewer vulnerabilities for public institutions in discounting or meeting revenue goals. But again, public colleges – perhaps because of their generally larger size — were more likely to see declining revenue for athletics, dining, and residence halls. They were also more prone to spend money on Covid-19 testing and surveillance."
Thank you for this.
I'm at a Public, and I can tell you that Covid testing blew a hole in our already fragile budget, and that while the mothership demanded it (rightly so), it isn't offering to pay for any of it. We also saw the cuts in revenue for dining & residence halls, largely because they are sunk costs and cannot be rented out or otherwise repurposed during a pandemic.
The bigger problem, of course is that the publics are dependent upon State coffers, and those are in terrible shape. Barring something very unexpected in Congress, this is unlikely to change soon.
In the age of the internet, one doesn't need college for the college experience, just a hotel resort:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/03/pricey-mini-campus-promises-students-maskless-safe-spring-term (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/03/pricey-mini-campus-promises-students-maskless-safe-spring-term).
Quote from: spork on December 03, 2020, 02:40:33 AM
In the age of the internet, one doesn't need college for the college experience, just a hotel resort:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/03/pricey-mini-campus-promises-students-maskless-safe-spring-term (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/03/pricey-mini-campus-promises-students-maskless-safe-spring-term).
You will not be surprised to learn that "co-founder Lane Russell, a former equity derivatives trader who graduated from Princeton in 2018" is the kind of person who would start this.
Quote from: spork on December 03, 2020, 02:40:33 AM
In the age of the internet, one doesn't need college for the college experience, just a hotel resort:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/03/pricey-mini-campus-promises-students-maskless-safe-spring-term (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/03/pricey-mini-campus-promises-students-maskless-safe-spring-term).
So, a special resort for well-heeled students who want to take classes online somewhere besides home? Weird.
I liked this quote from the article:
"The U Experience bottle hasn't yet been opened: that happens Jan. 28. But to many critics, it already smells like the ill-fated Fyre Festival of 2017, whose (different) young organizers promised a premier concert experience on a Bahamian isle but delivered only desperation and dehydration to stranded guests. To some, the U Experience also has a soupçon of "The Masque of the Red Death," Edgar Allan Poe's version of what happens when an elite few cordon themselves off from the outside world during the plague (spoiler: death finds a way in)."
It's very easy to see the brilliant "disrupters" who came up with this idea botching the logistics and failing to deliver on their promises. And a couple of bored thrill-seekers sneaking out, getting infected, and spreading it to the rest of the student body. Not too likely to get any of the young students killed, but imagine the uproar if a bunch of them end up testing positive after all.
The article is no doubt right that the price tag will prevent a very "diverse" student body, despite the organizers' protests that that's what they're trying to recruit. There certainly isn't going to be any economic diversity among attendees. The optics, as they say, don't look good.
I don't think it's weird at all. Since mid-March there have been students enrolled at a variety of institutions who have been living in a variety of locations. Park City. Flagstaff. The Hamptons. Rent a house, fill it, socially isolate. Get meals delivered, use the pool or the hot tub whenever you want. Minerva delivers a curriculum regardless of students' geographic location. This plan delivers a geographic location regardless of curriculum.
Fascinating:
Quote
The start-up was founded by three recent Princeton University alumni who believe that higher education's future lies in its unbundling. While COVID-19 was the catalyst for their business model, they think academe's mass "tacit endorsement" of online education will outlive the pandemic, and that students and their families will start to think about college as three separate entities: an education, a credential and an experience.
I think they're right on the money there. I'm intrigued by the distinction between the education and the credential.
Quote
Believing in this new reality requires many assumptions. Among them: professors will willingly give up their intellectual property in terms of course design and recorded lectures, so that universities can and will repackage them as courses at scale, at a lower cost.
I'd be glad to be paid for course design, and leave delivery to someone else. That would be a great job since it could be remote, asynchronous, etc.; perfect for semi-retirement.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 03, 2020, 09:35:23 AM
Fascinating:
Quote
The start-up was founded by three recent Princeton University alumni who believe that higher education's future lies in its unbundling. While COVID-19 was the catalyst for their business model, they think academe's mass "tacit endorsement" of online education will outlive the pandemic, and that students and their families will start to think about college as three separate entities: an education, a credential and an experience.
I think they're right on the money there. I'm intrigued by the distinction between the education and the credential.
Quote
Believing in this new reality requires many assumptions. Among them: professors will willingly give up their intellectual property in terms of course design and recorded lectures, so that universities can and will repackage them as courses at scale, at a lower cost.
I'd be glad to be paid for course design, and leave delivery to someone else. That would be a great job since it could be remote, asynchronous, etc.; perfect for semi-retirement.
I guess someone needs to tell these supposed business wizards from Princeton that this particular Elvis has already left the building. Anyone can access content from professors at MIT, Berkeley, etc. for free via edX or Coursera. Publishers regularly contract with "subject matter experts" to write textbook copy. Georgia Tech has been offering online M.S. computer science degrees at scale for, what, close to a decade now?
Recorded lectures, syllabi, and other instructional materials created by professors generally have a market price of zero. Professors who insist on maintaining ownership over course content because they think it has monetary value are delusional.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 03, 2020, 09:35:23 AM
Fascinating:
Quote
The start-up was founded by three recent Princeton University alumni who believe that higher education's future lies in its unbundling. While COVID-19 was the catalyst for their business model, they think academe's mass "tacit endorsement" of online education will outlive the pandemic, and that students and their families will start to think about college as three separate entities: an education, a credential and an experience.
I think they're right on the money there. I'm intrigued by the distinction between the education and the credential.
Quote
Believing in this new reality requires many assumptions. Among them: professors will willingly give up their intellectual property in terms of course design and recorded lectures, so that universities can and will repackage them as courses at scale, at a lower cost.
I'd be glad to be paid for course design, and leave delivery to someone else. That would be a great job since it could be remote, asynchronous, etc.; perfect for semi-retirement.
Execpt, of course, that this already exists. They're called "textbooks" (which are filled with lectures) and "the internet" (which is stuffed with syllabi, and as many TED Talks as you'd every want to watch).
What's new here?
[On edit: What Spork wrote.]
There is no need to get into the business of creating curricular content. Just focus on connecting resorts with students.
I want to do a semester of study abroad at Cabo while taking courses from my home institution. If you want my tuition money then you're going to have to forego dorm and meal plan fees.
Quote from: spork on December 03, 2020, 10:21:10 AM
I guess someone needs to tell these supposed business wizards from Princeton that this particular Elvis has already left the building. Anyone can access content from professors at MIT, Berkeley, etc. for free via edX or Coursera. Publishers regularly contract with "subject matter experts" to write textbook copy. Georgia Tech has been offering online M.S. computer science degrees at scale for, what, close to a decade now?
We're still in the infancy of these things. The one thing covid has done is remove the "experimental" feel of it. ALL KINDS of institutions have had to offer courses in MANY disciplines and assigning ACTUAL course credit for them. The previous offerings (Coursera, edX, etc. ) have had mostly novelty value. I stand to be corrected, but I haven't heard of their widespread adoption for credit towards
recognized degrees. I would imagine that within the next decade at least, and more likely within the next 5 years, there will be more bricks-and-mortar schools offering significant numbers of core courses for existing programs online, with online versions of exisitng programs not too far behind.
Quote
Recorded lectures, syllabi, and other instructional materials created by professors generally have a market price of zero. Professors who insist on maintaining ownership over course content because they think it has monetary value are delusional.
The value isn't in the lectures; it's in the assignments and
evaluation procedures (tests, etc.)
That's been the big challenge with the move online.
Every department meeting we've had during covid has been about exams. As processes and procedures develop which are reliable enough, (and with efforts literally around the world to develop them, it's
going to happen), completely online programs are going to emerge in lots of different disciplines, and which will be verified to be comparable in results to their in-person counterparts.
Developing the automated infrastructure for those is where the money is. And that will require content experts
who understand the challenges of online pedagogy.
Videotaping in-person lecture delivery doesn't even come close.
The above already exists. The potentially successful business is in putting students into resort accommodations.
Yes, the virus forced everyone to learn about on-line and will mightily help on the road to unbundling.
That is for students, and it is good.
What affect will this have on faculty?
Would not have to be concentrated geographically for teaching purposes, perhaps not even for research purposes. There would be national markets for adjuncts, not just local markets. Institutions have market power locally, but not nationally. TT faculty already compete in a national market, but adjuncts do not. Probably a good time for adjunct faculty coming up.
Quote from: spork on December 03, 2020, 12:46:21 PM
The above already exists. The potentially successful business is in putting students into resort accommodations.
Think of all of the discussions here about places going into debt to build stadiums, climbing walls, etc. If an institution managed to do a good job adapting to remote instruction, and didn't have those kinds of resources, they could focus on the actual education they offer, and let students
live where there is a climbing wall, or sucba diving, or.......
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 03, 2020, 01:40:10 PM
Quote from: spork on December 03, 2020, 12:46:21 PM
The above already exists. The potentially successful business is in putting students into resort accommodations.
Think of all of the discussions here about places going into debt to build stadiums, climbing walls, etc. If an institution managed to do a good job adapting to remote instruction, and didn't have those kinds of resources, they could focus on the actual education they offer, and let students live where there is a climbing wall, or sucba diving, or.......
Adapting to remote instruction included welcoming the freshmen who were unable to leave various Asian countries. That required creating some sort of remote facility where they could find class cohesion as well as the technical infrastructure for instruction.
That small foray into overseas satellites could be expanded. While the initial sites were colleges, why not resorts? It would not take that much retrofitting. Some resorts may even be for sale right now at a very reasonable price.
Maybe some campuses will end up being repurposed as resorts.
Quote from: apl68 on December 04, 2020, 07:25:42 AM
Maybe some campuses will end up being repurposed as resorts.
My campus is very seriously considering using one of those cruise line islands this summer. Unless something changes almost immediately, those places are shuttered, and they have lots of facilities already in place.
I'd say there's about a 75% chance that we will be doing this.
In the current system, Williams College students are worth 15 times more than community college students:
https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/quick-bit-math (https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/quick-bit-math).
Quote from: spork on December 16, 2020, 02:55:04 AM
In the current system, Williams College students are worth 15 times more than community college students:
https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/quick-bit-math (https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/quick-bit-math).
It's not clear what the expected remedy is:
Quote
The provost makes the point that at an annual tuition of $70,000, Williams charges about $45,000 less than the cost of production, even for full-pay students. We also charge less than the cost of production. Tuition and fees add up to slightly over half of our operating budget. Both institutions are nonprofit.
At a basic level, we've decided as a society that some students are fifteen times more worthy of support than others. (And that's without even counting the value of the tax exemption of the endowment!) They're not. Williams students are lovely people, but are they fifteen times lovelier than students here?
So is a
cost of
$115000 per year per student reasonable? And is it reasonable to expect governments to finance the lion's share of that for everyone who chooses it? For a half million over 4 years, I think there could be lots more effective investments in young peoples' futures.
Opposing views of college:
New campus residence requirement a money grab by Michigan State (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/01/05/michigan-state-enforce-two-year-campus-living-policy-citing-improved-grad-rates).
The inside-out semester (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2021/01/05/colleges-should-reimagine-spring-semester-rather-cling-old-academic-constructs).
Quote from: spork on January 05, 2021, 05:37:17 AM
Opposing views of college:
New campus residence requirement a money grab by Michigan State (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/01/05/michigan-state-enforce-two-year-campus-living-policy-citing-improved-grad-rates).
How not to do "research":
Quote
Largent said the new requirement [to require all first and second year students to live on campus] is largely based on university research that clearly suggests students are more likely to graduate from Michigan State if they live on campus their sophomore year. The university currently enforces a first-year on-campus living requirement, but university research on graduation rates found that undergraduates who continued to live on campus a second year had a 2.5-percentage-point higher graduation rate than those who did not, according to a press release about the new living requirement.
Unless the graduation rates are normally in the single digits, the selection bias effects here probably vastly outweigh anything else.
Quote
The inside-out semester (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2021/01/05/colleges-should-reimagine-spring-semester-rather-cling-old-academic-constructs).
How to put things in perspective:
Quote
Here we are, collectively adrift on an ocean of chaos, transformation and trauma -- and in a vessel that was never equipped to navigate it. We are holding on tightly to a set of academic expectations designed for dry land: expectations that have their origins in the capitalist, white supremacist, patriarchal, settler-colonialist, ableist structures that are (finally, necessarily) beginning to collapse around us.
And here we thought we were trying to educate people to give them more opportunities in life........
Quote from: spork on January 05, 2021, 05:37:17 AM
Opposing views of college:
New campus residence requirement a money grab by Michigan State (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/01/05/michigan-state-enforce-two-year-campus-living-policy-citing-improved-grad-rates).
I'd like to think that some of those involved in the decision honestly felt that this requirement is for the best. But it's awfully hard not to suspect other motives. Underfunded institutions are often driven to desperate measures. This is a world where public libraries (Not us, but I know them) that have previously not charged overdue fines have started doing so out of desperation over their budgets.
What a horror story from that alumna whose roommate moved her boyfriend in with them! Sounds like some of their dorms have not been run at all well in recent years. If they don't do a better job of running things than that, they're sure going to make people cynical about their motives for forcing more students to live in the dorms.
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 05, 2021, 06:15:09 AM
How to put things in perspective:
Quote
Here we are, collectively adrift on an ocean of chaos, transformation and trauma -- and in a vessel that was never equipped to navigate it. We are holding on tightly to a set of academic expectations designed for dry land: expectations that have their origins in the capitalist, white supremacist, patriarchal, settler-colonialist, ableist structures that are (finally, necessarily) beginning to collapse around us.
And here we thought we were trying to educate people to give them more opportunities in life........
Though I've chided other posters elsewhere for their relentless carping about political correctness and "woke" behavior--and I still think that griping about it all the time is counterproductive--I can't blame them at all for being annoyed at stuff like this. What an insufferably sanctimonious and superior attitude this expresses! All the more annoying to find a paragraph like this dropped into what's actually a pretty thoughtful and interesting article overall. The author just had to insert that distraction on general principle, like Cato working
Carthago delenda est into every speech.
The pandemic is restructuring higher ed to increase the existing disparities not just by speeding the race to the bottom, but also by also pushing high end higher.
Today we have an IHE article (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/01/05/yale-arts-and-sciences-faculty-want-see-bold-hiring-moves-during-pandemic) on the action at three schools (Yale, Caltech and Stanford) that benefited from the strong stock market performance, but did not suffer revenue loss (tuition and research grants). Their administrations are taking the opportunity to make targeted hires of opportunity (i.e. poach) to make their faculty better. Their faculty are encouraging them to hire even more aggressively.
Now, Yale didn't get off unscathed by any means. Their operating budget took a quarter-billion dollar hit. That would be considered a significant financial problem at any other school. This kind of resilience to severe short-term problems sets them apart.
QuoteAgain I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to those with knowledge, but time and chance happen to them all.
Ecclesiastes 9:11
This is supposed to be satirical, but it's accurate for many colleges and universities:
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2021/01/29/satiric-look-how-faculty-and-administrators-can-realize-failure-grand-scale-opinion (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2021/01/29/satiric-look-how-faculty-and-administrators-can-realize-failure-grand-scale-opinion).
Quote from: spork on January 29, 2021, 05:57:03 AM
This is supposed to be satirical, but it's accurate for many colleges and universities:
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2021/01/29/satiric-look-how-faculty-and-administrators-can-realize-failure-grand-scale-opinion (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2021/01/29/satiric-look-how-faculty-and-administrators-can-realize-failure-grand-scale-opinion).
Several points from the article that are worth noting:
Quote
Faculty members should foil all attempts to discuss the complexities of operating a university, especially during a pandemic. Instead, they should continue to insist that financial issues are simply a matter of reallocating resources away from administrative activities and toward teaching efforts.
Faculty members should stay on message that the corporate mentality prohibits administrators from caring about people -- or, even better yet, incentivizes them not to care. After all, administrators fail to respect or recognize the true purpose of a university, which is to provide a liberal arts education.
Faculty members should remain committed to a single message: cut administration, cut everywhere except instruction and put that money toward teaching.
The faculty should insist that budget realities -- the need to balance revenues and expenses -- are irrelevant to the future of a great university. All that matters is that we continue to provide a great liberal arts education and are permitted to conduct our scholarship without impediment and with abundant resources.
I'd say all of those sentiments seem to be expressed fairly regularly here.
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 29, 2021, 06:16:57 AM
Quote from: spork on January 29, 2021, 05:57:03 AM
This is supposed to be satirical, but it's accurate for many colleges and universities:
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2021/01/29/satiric-look-how-faculty-and-administrators-can-realize-failure-grand-scale-opinion (https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2021/01/29/satiric-look-how-faculty-and-administrators-can-realize-failure-grand-scale-opinion).
Several points from the article that are worth noting:
Quote
Faculty members should foil all attempts to discuss the complexities of operating a university, especially during a pandemic. Instead, they should continue to insist that financial issues are simply a matter of reallocating resources away from administrative activities and toward teaching efforts.
Faculty members should stay on message that the corporate mentality prohibits administrators from caring about people -- or, even better yet, incentivizes them not to care. After all, administrators fail to respect or recognize the true purpose of a university, which is to provide a liberal arts education.
Faculty members should remain committed to a single message: cut administration, cut everywhere except instruction and put that money toward teaching.
The faculty should insist that budget realities -- the need to balance revenues and expenses -- are irrelevant to the future of a great university. All that matters is that we continue to provide a great liberal arts education and are permitted to conduct our scholarship without impediment and with abundant resources.
I'd say all of those sentiments seem to be expressed fairly regularly here.
That seems like an unfair accusation. I can think of few, if any, Fora regulars who don't accept a need for serious adaptation. There is disagreement over what that adaptation might look like.
Quite a few Fora members speak of having
witnessed attitudes like those described in the article. They haven't been endorsing them.
Stephen Mintz makes another faulty argument:
https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/higher-ed-gamma/career-aligned-major-isn%E2%80%99t-enough (https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/higher-ed-gamma/career-aligned-major-isn%E2%80%99t-enough).
Quote from: spork on February 04, 2021, 01:09:01 PM
Stephen Mintz makes another faulty argument:
https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/higher-ed-gamma/career-aligned-major-isn%E2%80%99t-enough (https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/higher-ed-gamma/career-aligned-major-isn%E2%80%99t-enough).
Mintz makes two statements, with the implication that A follows from B
Quote from: Mintz
A: postgraduation success requires a demanding liberal arts curriculum.
B: a bachelor's degree in a high demand field is not a golden ticket to career success.
It is easy for A to be false even when B is true. Shouldn't all critical thinkers see that in the first few lines of the article and stop reading?
U.S. higher ed lost 650,000 jobs in 2020:
https://www.chronicle.com/article/a-brutal-tally-higher-ed-lost-650-000-jobs-last-year (https://www.chronicle.com/article/a-brutal-tally-higher-ed-lost-650-000-jobs-last-year).
Quote from: spork on February 15, 2021, 06:07:33 AM
U.S. higher ed lost 650,000 jobs in 2020:
https://www.chronicle.com/article/a-brutal-tally-higher-ed-lost-650-000-jobs-last-year (https://www.chronicle.com/article/a-brutal-tally-higher-ed-lost-650-000-jobs-last-year).
From the article:
Quote
A Washington Post report and analysis last fall found that "the lowest-paid workers in higher education are bearing the brunt of the layoffs, mirroring broader trends of the most unequal recession in modern U.S. history."
The layoffs were highest among administrative support. Many of those kinds of functions would have been done by faculty, such as academic advising, practicum supervision, certain admissions roles, etc.
As with any business, when money gets tight, it's necessary to return to the core focus of the business, which in this case, is educating students.
I wish colleges focused on resilience and being proactive. I know everyone's situation is different and most students probably have a rougher time than me right now. These are the soft skills that get brushed aside by people meaning well in advocating for a host of student support services that don't do much to help if students don't seem invested in their own educations.
A recent survey indicates that students are not at all happy about the online education they've been getting during the Plague Year:
QuoteNinety-four percent of college students surveyed believe online classes should cost less than in-person instruction, according to a new report from Barnes & Noble Education. The report is based on responses from 1,438 students and provides an outlook on the future of higher education following the coronavirus pandemic. Nearly half of the students surveyed also said that the value of college has declined as a result of the pandemic.
Barnes & Noble Insights, the company's research arm, also surveyed 323 faculty members and 104 administrators from November to December of 2020 and found that students are more likely than these personnel to question the cost of college, a press release about the report said. While nearly all the students surveyed said the cost of online classes should be reduced, only 43 percent of administrators and 41 percent of faculty members believed it should be, according to the report.
https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/03/01/report-students-think-value-college-declined
Results like this suggest that students by and large consider online education a second-rate substitute, justifiable only if it comes with a cut in price. I recall suspecting, when the big emergency rush to online took place a year ago, that this was likely to turn students and the public against online education. Which doesn't mean that policymakers and such aren't going to force more and more of them into online education in the long run in the name of "cutting costs" or "efficiency" anyway.
Quote from: apl68 on March 01, 2021, 10:49:36 AM
A recent survey indicates that students are not at all happy about the online education they've been getting during the Plague Year:
Quote
Ninety-four percent of college students surveyed believe online classes should cost less than in-person instruction, according to a new report from Barnes & Noble Education.
https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/03/01/report-students-think-value-college-declined
Results like this suggest that students by and large consider online education a second-rate substitute, justifiable only if it comes with a cut in price. I recall suspecting, when the big emergency rush to online took place a year ago, that this was likely to turn students and the public against online education. Which doesn't mean that policymakers and such aren't going to force more and more of them into online education in the long run in the name of "cutting costs" or "efficiency" anyway.
It would have been interesting if they'd asked
what proportion of value it had relative to face to face; 80%? 60%?
Theoretically, if the tuition were reduced by the right proportion, students would be satisfied with the experience.
QuoteIt would have been interesting if they'd asked what proportion of value it had relative to face to face; 80%? 60%?
Theoretically, if the tuition were reduced by the right proportion, students would be satisfied with the experience.
Yes, that's what matters.
Here https://www.nber.org/papers/w28511#fromrss (https://www.nber.org/papers/w28511#fromrss) is some evidence and analysis that claims students would be willing to pay only 4% more for on-site classes than on-line classes -- holding everything else constant.
QuoteThis suggests that many students find on-line instruction to be a reasonable substitute for on-site instruction.
Students would pay 8% more for on-site amenities.
I find those numbers surprisingly small, but they do vary a lot across students.
Quote from: dismalist on March 01, 2021, 01:37:52 PM
https://www.nber.org/papers/w28511#fromrss (https://www.nber.org/papers/w28511#fromrss) is some evidence and analysis that claims students would be willing to pay only 4% more for on-site classes than on-line classes -- holding everything else constant. QuoteThis suggests that many students find on-line instruction to be a reasonable substitute for on-site instruction.
Students would pay 8% more for on-site amenities.
I find those numbers surprisingly small, but they do vary a lot across students.
Here's one bombshell from the report, in my opinion:
Quote
For example, the WTP* is correlated with students' previous experience
with online education; those who took an average of one online class per semester pre-pandemic have, on
average, a $676 lower WTP for in-person instruction.
Now that covid has given
all students exposure to
lots of online classes, this suggests the WTP for in-person instruction may now be quite a bit lower across-the-board.
*"Willingness To Pay"
Quote from: dismalist on March 01, 2021, 01:37:52 PM
QuoteIt would have been interesting if they'd asked what proportion of value it had relative to face to face; 80%? 60%?
Theoretically, if the tuition were reduced by the right proportion, students would be satisfied with the experience.
Yes, that's what matters.
Here https://www.nber.org/papers/w28511#fromrss (https://www.nber.org/papers/w28511#fromrss) is some evidence and analysis that claims students would be willing to pay only 4% more for on-site classes than on-line classes -- holding everything else constant. QuoteThis suggests that many students find on-line instruction to be a reasonable substitute for on-site instruction.
Students would pay 8% more for on-site amenities.
I find those numbers surprisingly small, but they do vary a lot across students.
Coursera moves closer to IPO:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/03/09/coursera-ipo-filing-reveals-company-successfully-monetizing-moocs (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/03/09/coursera-ipo-filing-reveals-company-successfully-monetizing-moocs).
Quote from: spork on March 10, 2021, 02:38:36 AM
Quote from: dismalist on March 01, 2021, 01:37:52 PM
QuoteIt would have been interesting if they'd asked what proportion of value it had relative to face to face; 80%? 60%?
Theoretically, if the tuition were reduced by the right proportion, students would be satisfied with the experience.
Yes, that's what matters.
Here https://www.nber.org/papers/w28511#fromrss (https://www.nber.org/papers/w28511#fromrss) is some evidence and analysis that claims students would be willing to pay only 4% more for on-site classes than on-line classes -- holding everything else constant. QuoteThis suggests that many students find on-line instruction to be a reasonable substitute for on-site instruction.
Students would pay 8% more for on-site amenities.
I find those numbers surprisingly small, but they do vary a lot across students.
Coursera moves closer to IPO:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/03/09/coursera-ipo-filing-reveals-company-successfully-monetizing-moocs (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/03/09/coursera-ipo-filing-reveals-company-successfully-monetizing-moocs).
Covid probably accelerated this trend, but it was always the long game.
Anybody who ever thought that one of the O's was for Open didn't sit through the meetings I did, and see the gleam of dollar signs dance in the eyes of administrators.
Can we start calling the MOC(K)s now?
Quote from: dr_codex on March 10, 2021, 04:44:14 AM
Quote from: spork on March 10, 2021, 02:38:36 AM
Quote from: dismalist on March 01, 2021, 01:37:52 PM
QuoteIt would have been interesting if they'd asked what proportion of value it had relative to face to face; 80%? 60%?
Theoretically, if the tuition were reduced by the right proportion, students would be satisfied with the experience.
Yes, that's what matters.
Here https://www.nber.org/papers/w28511#fromrss (https://www.nber.org/papers/w28511#fromrss) is some evidence and analysis that claims students would be willing to pay only 4% more for on-site classes than on-line classes -- holding everything else constant. QuoteThis suggests that many students find on-line instruction to be a reasonable substitute for on-site instruction.
Students would pay 8% more for on-site amenities.
I find those numbers surprisingly small, but they do vary a lot across students.
Coursera moves closer to IPO:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/03/09/coursera-ipo-filing-reveals-company-successfully-monetizing-moocs (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/03/09/coursera-ipo-filing-reveals-company-successfully-monetizing-moocs).
Covid probably accelerated this trend, but it was always the long game.
Anybody who ever thought that one of the O's was for Open didn't sit through the meetings I did, and see the gleam of dollar signs dance in the eyes of administrators.
Can we start calling the MOC(K)s now?
"Wall Street is desperately seeking high-growth, consumer-based businesses like what Coursera has become," Pianko said. "Massive eyeballs with a repeatable, freemium model drives the types of lofty valuations that the Coursera IPO achieves."
This quote makes me consider the contrast with how college leaders are speaking about their finances.
Can you imagine,
"Wall Street is desperately seeking high-growth, consumer-based businesses like what MacMaster has become," the MacMaster Board Chair said. "Massive eyeballs with a repeatable, freemium model drives the types of lofty valuations that the MacMaster IPO achieves."?
Quote from: spork on March 10, 2021, 02:38:36 AM
Coursera moves closer to IPO:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/03/09/coursera-ipo-filing-reveals-company-successfully-monetizing-moocs (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/03/09/coursera-ipo-filing-reveals-company-successfully-monetizing-moocs).
Lots of fascinating stuff in that article. One section:
Quote
Although it is still possible to audit many Coursera courses for free, the company has evolved significantly since its early days as a provider of massive open online courses, or MOOCS. The platform's combination of paid nondegree certificates, stackable degrees and professional credentials has forged a company with an estimated value of between $2.4 billion and $5 billion.
"Wall Street is desperately seeking high-growth, consumer-based businesses like what Coursera has become," Pianko said. "Massive eyeballs with a repeatable, freemium model drives the types of lofty valuations that the Coursera IPO achieves."
Introductory courses in lots of disciplines are pretty interchangeable. Also, because of the scale, it's possible to empirically determine good pedagogy for those courses, so it's inevitable that these can be delivered economically to a huge audience.
The "freemium" model means that people can learn stuff cheaply, so the only cost to the student will be certification, i.e. proving they have learned the material. Developing the infrastructure to authenticate students' tests and so on will be crucial for this to succeed. One option is for institutions to "farm out" the content delivery, and just do the testing in-house.
It will be interesting to see when institutions start accepting these credentials for transfer, and/or incorporating the instruction along with their own testing as I mentioned above. In some way or another, it's inevitable.
The growth opportunity for bricks-and-mortar institutions is to develop their own unique courses. If they're popular enough, then they could eventually be licensed to online providers for big bucks.
The writing will be on the wall for places that only offer generic courses that are basically the same as what is offered at dozens of other institutions.
Pandemic may have permanently altered campus:
https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-pandemic-may-have-permanently-altered-campuses-heres-how (https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-pandemic-may-have-permanently-altered-campuses-heres-how).
(paywalled)
The phoneless university:
https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/learning-innovation/will-covid-zoom-kill-campus-desk-phone (https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/learning-innovation/will-covid-zoom-kill-campus-desk-phone).
Quote from: spork on April 09, 2021, 03:37:10 AM
The phoneless university:
https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/learning-innovation/will-covid-zoom-kill-campus-desk-phone (https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/learning-innovation/will-covid-zoom-kill-campus-desk-phone).
I'm a little confused by this.
I've never had a phone in my shared office in the 5 years I've had it (usually shared only in the most nominal sense) While others had one, I can't recall ever seeing anyone else using a campus phone or hearing one ring outside of the department office. I'm sure there are small numbers of older faculty members attached to their phones, but I really don't think there are that many of them.
The people who I assume actually use their desk phones are staff-if you have a job where you are at a desk somewhere it is sometimes easier-if you need some particular piece of information or clarification on something-to just call the person over in the deans office or registrar or whatever because you can grad their attention for 2 minutes and deal with some problem right then.
I don't really see how Zoom is a replacement for that function of office phones. It isn't a system designed to have people cold calling each other. It's a meeting app.
Quote from: Caracal on April 09, 2021, 05:13:22 AM
I don't really see how Zoom is a replacement for that function of office phones. It isn't a system designed to have people cold calling each other. It's a meeting app.
Absoloutely. Here are a few vital differences:
- Zoom calls are planned. People can be prepared for video. Even still, many people leave video off. If people were receiving cold calls, video off would probably happen about 90% of the time.
- Phones systems have voicemail. Are people really going to want to send recorded video messages? (And only the absolute techodroids will choose to have their smartphones on all the time so that they're on-call 24/7. I'd retire tomorrow if they required me to do that.)
- Phone calls don't freeze, and unexplained hangups are extremely rare. Zoom is way better than the options a decade ago, but bandwidth issues are still real and frequent.
- Young people use texting a lot more than voice calls, and texting is less immediate than voice calls. It makes no sense that they would choose to go for video as the exclusive alternative to texting.
Since about the 50's, video calling has existed in some form or other, at least on an experimental basis. The technology has advanced by light years since then, but the cultural barriers haven't, so it hasn't replaced phone calls. My prediction is that it won't ever, or at least in my lifetime.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 09, 2021, 05:57:16 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 09, 2021, 05:13:22 AM
I don't really see how Zoom is a replacement for that function of office phones. It isn't a system designed to have people cold calling each other. It's a meeting app.
Absoloutely. Here are a few vital differences:
- Zoom calls are planned. People can be prepared for video. Even still, many people leave video off. If people were receiving cold calls, video off would probably happen about 90% of the time.
- Phones systems have voicemail. Are people really going to want to send recorded video messages? (And only the absolute techodroids will choose to have their smartphones on all the time so that they're on-call 24/7. I'd retire tomorrow if they required me to do that.)
- Phone calls don't freeze, and unexplained hangups are extremely rare. Zoom is way better than the options a decade ago, but bandwidth issues are still real and frequent.
- Young people use texting a lot more than voice calls, and texting is less immediate than voice calls. It makes no sense that they would choose to go for video as the exclusive alternative to texting.
Since about the 50's, video calling has existed in some form or other, at least on an experimental basis. The technology has advanced by light years since then, but the cultural barriers haven't, so it hasn't replaced phone calls. My prediction is that it won't ever, or at least in my lifetime.
Yeah I agree. Its an example of the way ideologies of progress and technological change sometimes can lead people to make weird arguments and assumptions. Nobody has actually created anything superior to a phone call if you want to get someone's full attention at a certain time without planning the interaction beforehand. When there were far fewer options, people used to use phone calls for all kinds of other things, and many of those uses have been largely replaced by other technologies.
You see the same weird argument about email. When email first became widespread, most people didn't have cell phones. When I was in college, email was the main way I communicated with friends. It was totally normal to ask someone to go on a date with you over email. If you wanted to see if some friends wanted to get together and have dinner you sent an email. Most people don't use email that way anymore obviously, and that results in some people deciding that maybe faculty should communicate with students over text or something. But, texting isn't designed for class communications. It works well for figuring out if some people want to come over for dinner but its terrible as a way of getting clarification on why you got a zero on the reading quiz. Email isn't likely to go away because it is much more functional for many professional communications than anything else.
Quote from: Caracal on April 09, 2021, 07:02:37 AMNobody has actually created anything superior to a phone call if you want to get someone's full attention at a certain time without planning the interaction beforehand.
I agree, but that's also the reason why I have no issue with the university removing my office phone, because the only people who I want to have access to such a direct means of communicating with me already have my cell phone number.
Quote from: mleok on April 09, 2021, 09:18:48 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 09, 2021, 07:02:37 AMNobody has actually created anything superior to a phone call if you want to get someone's full attention at a certain time without planning the interaction beforehand.
I agree, but that's also the reason why I have no issue with the university removing my office phone, because the only people who I want to have access to such a direct means of communicating with me already have my cell phone number.
Really? I almost never answer my phone unless I know the person calling and want to talk to them. Otherwise, it goes to voicemail. Which I often don't check for a while. Email generally works better.
I wonder how much an average university spends to run a Cisco VOIP system. I haven't used my office phone for a year and don't miss it at all.
Until universities install separate physical hardware for videoconferencing to replace the separate hardware that we already have for telephones, I am keeping the phone.
You have a work computer, and you have a separate tablet device or smaller computer. This is how professional businesses are figuring out how to do this. This is how my friends who work out of their house have figured out how to do this. Heck, this is how all of my nieces and nephews are completing their remote classwork right now.
Otherwise, it's a significant managerial and overall work efficiency downgrade to have your work computer serve double-duty as videophone, even if you've adjusted the software enough to minimize the application into a purely audio feed. Until this type of technology has been measurably improved to function more like a phone, and your operable use of your computer monitor and regular working computer applications (e.g., emailing) are not significantly affected, its better to keep your hardware options open.
Quote from: mleok on April 09, 2021, 09:18:48 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 09, 2021, 07:02:37 AMNobody has actually created anything superior to a phone call if you want to get someone's full attention at a certain time without planning the interaction beforehand.
I agree, but that's also the reason why I have no issue with the university removing my office phone, because the only people who I want to have access to such a direct means of communicating with me already have my cell phone number.
Sure, me too. But that's mostly reflective of the kind of jobs we have. People with administrative jobs where lots of time sensitive things are being tossed at them by different people are probably more likely to think that, in some circumstances, a quick phone call is a much easier way to sort out some problem than sending a series of emails back and forth.
Quote from: Caracal on April 09, 2021, 10:29:25 AM
People with administrative jobs where lots of time sensitive things are being tossed at them by different people are probably more likely to think that, in some circumstances, a quick phone call is a much easier way to sort out some problem than sending a series of emails back and forth.
+1. I'd add that this is not limited to staff jobs. Quick phone calls are also one of the most optimal way to get things done for any faculty who have regular administrative duties (e.g., deans, department heads, lab managers, academic advisors).
For example, here is a comparison of how regular, day-to-day things often get resolved at Big Urban College (in my department).
This: Question resolved with single phone call - 4 minutes with little/no miscommunications. Wham. Bam. Done. Everybody happy. Or This: Question resolved via multiple back-and-forth emails - 2-4 days, half of which is spent repeating, including, or stating in another way whatever it is that the parties are trying to communicate to one another. Much of the other half is just waiting around for the other parties to get around to communicating back. Now add a large amount of personal angst, emotional pissiness, impatience, and overall disgust in collegiality that results from such a crappy way to communicate.
Quote from: Caracal on April 09, 2021, 10:29:25 AM
Quote from: mleok on April 09, 2021, 09:18:48 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 09, 2021, 07:02:37 AMNobody has actually created anything superior to a phone call if you want to get someone's full attention at a certain time without planning the interaction beforehand.
I agree, but that's also the reason why I have no issue with the university removing my office phone, because the only people who I want to have access to such a direct means of communicating with me already have my cell phone number.
Sure, me too. But that's mostly reflective of the kind of jobs we have. People with administrative jobs where lots of time sensitive things are being tossed at them by different people are probably more likely to think that, in some circumstances, a quick phone call is a much easier way to sort out some problem than sending a series of emails back and forth.
That's certainly what I find in my administrative work. Even though I prefer e-mails where those would work well enough.
Quote from: downer on April 09, 2021, 09:23:36 AM
Quote from: mleok on April 09, 2021, 09:18:48 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 09, 2021, 07:02:37 AMNobody has actually created anything superior to a phone call if you want to get someone's full attention at a certain time without planning the interaction beforehand.
I agree, but that's also the reason why I have no issue with the university removing my office phone, because the only people who I want to have access to such a direct means of communicating with me already have my cell phone number.
Really? I almost never answer my phone unless I know the person calling and want to talk to them. Otherwise, it goes to voicemail. Which I often don't check for a while. Email generally works better.
The only calls I answer on my cell phone are from people who are on my contact list. I certainly don't like receiving calls from random people, and the only time I do is in my office, because there's no easy way to mute the phone or have it divert automatically to voice mail.
Quote from: Caracal on April 09, 2021, 10:29:25 AM
Quote from: mleok on April 09, 2021, 09:18:48 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 09, 2021, 07:02:37 AMNobody has actually created anything superior to a phone call if you want to get someone's full attention at a certain time without planning the interaction beforehand.
I agree, but that's also the reason why I have no issue with the university removing my office phone, because the only people who I want to have access to such a direct means of communicating with me already have my cell phone number.
Sure, me too. But that's mostly reflective of the kind of jobs we have. People with administrative jobs where lots of time sensitive things are being tossed at them by different people are probably more likely to think that, in some circumstances, a quick phone call is a much easier way to sort out some problem than sending a series of emails back and forth.
Definitely, when I need to quickly resolve an urgent issue with my grant manager for a proposal submission, I talk to him on the phone.
Quote from: mleok on April 09, 2021, 08:36:03 PM
Quote from: Caracal on April 09, 2021, 10:29:25 AM
Quote from: mleok on April 09, 2021, 09:18:48 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 09, 2021, 07:02:37 AMNobody has actually created anything superior to a phone call if you want to get someone's full attention at a certain time without planning the interaction beforehand.
I agree, but that's also the reason why I have no issue with the university removing my office phone, because the only people who I want to have access to such a direct means of communicating with me already have my cell phone number.
Sure, me too. But that's mostly reflective of the kind of jobs we have. People with administrative jobs where lots of time sensitive things are being tossed at them by different people are probably more likely to think that, in some circumstances, a quick phone call is a much easier way to sort out some problem than sending a series of emails back and forth.
Definitely, when I need to quickly resolve an urgent issue with my grant manager for a proposal submission, I talk to him on the phone.
This discussion has made me realize the same thing is true of some discussions with students. Not that I want them to call me on my cell phone or I want to call them out of the blue, but there are times when email is a really terrible form of communication. Grade discussions with students over email are a nightmare, for example. If students keep arguing after I've explained why the grade is what it is, it can stretch over a whole day with multiple angry messages coming into my inbox and putting me in a terrible mood. I try to cut the discussion off at some point, but some students keep bringing up additional supposed issues, I feel I should address, lest they accuse me of ignoring them.
In person, it's still not a fun conversation, but the student can say their peace, I can listen and respond and the whole thing has an ending point. It's also harder for most people to be as unpleasant as they can be in an email. I need to remember this if I get any complainers at the end of this semester. Zoom doesn't replace phone calls, but it is a good alternative to a meeting in person when I'm not going to be on campus.
Quote from: Caracal on April 10, 2021, 04:37:08 AM
This discussion has made me realize the same thing is true of some discussions with students. Not that I want them to call me on my cell phone or I want to call them out of the blue, but there are times when email is a really terrible form of communication. Grade discussions with students over email are a nightmare, for example. If students keep arguing after I've explained why the grade is what it is, it can stretch over a whole day with multiple angry messages coming into my inbox and putting me in a terrible mood. I try to cut the discussion off at some point, but some students keep bringing up additional supposed issues, I feel I should address, lest they accuse me of ignoring them.
In person, it's still not a fun conversation, but the student can say their peace, I can listen and respond and the whole thing has an ending point. It's also harder for most people to be as unpleasant as they can be in an email. I need to remember this if I get any complainers at the end of this semester.
I'm the reverse of this. I'd rather keep things like grade discussions on email so I can think before responding. Having to react in real time to all of that hostility is too stressful.
Adding to the chorus of those who find phone calls preferable for many kinds of conversation. I'm a pretty careful emailer, so it eats up a lot of my time. Also, some conversations aren't ideal for permanent archiving.
I rarely use my office phone, but I find the feature that voicemails are converted to audio files and sent to my email very helpful. It means that I never have to check my voicemail.
Quote from: Caracal on April 10, 2021, 04:37:08 AM
Quote from: mleok on April 09, 2021, 08:36:03 PM
Quote from: Caracal on April 09, 2021, 10:29:25 AM
Quote from: mleok on April 09, 2021, 09:18:48 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 09, 2021, 07:02:37 AMNobody has actually created anything superior to a phone call if you want to get someone's full attention at a certain time without planning the interaction beforehand.
I agree, but that's also the reason why I have no issue with the university removing my office phone, because the only people who I want to have access to such a direct means of communicating with me already have my cell phone number.
Sure, me too. But that's mostly reflective of the kind of jobs we have. People with administrative jobs where lots of time sensitive things are being tossed at them by different people are probably more likely to think that, in some circumstances, a quick phone call is a much easier way to sort out some problem than sending a series of emails back and forth.
Definitely, when I need to quickly resolve an urgent issue with my grant manager for a proposal submission, I talk to him on the phone.
This discussion has made me realize the same thing is true of some discussions with students. Not that I want them to call me on my cell phone or I want to call them out of the blue, but there are times when email is a really terrible form of communication. Grade discussions with students over email are a nightmare, for example. If students keep arguing after I've explained why the grade is what it is, it can stretch over a whole day with multiple angry messages coming into my inbox and putting me in a terrible mood. I try to cut the discussion off at some point, but some students keep bringing up additional supposed issues, I feel I should address, lest they accuse me of ignoring them.
In person, it's still not a fun conversation, but the student can say their peace, I can listen and respond and the whole thing has an ending point. It's also harder for most people to be as unpleasant as they can be in an email. I need to remember this if I get any complainers at the end of this semester. Zoom doesn't replace phone calls, but it is a good alternative to a meeting in person when I'm not going to be on campus.
It's useful to have email documentation, though...might be worth the pain to know you can prove to anyone above you how painful it really was...
M.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 10, 2021, 06:41:53 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 10, 2021, 04:37:08 AM
In person, it's still not a fun conversation, but the student can say their peace, I can listen and respond and the whole thing has an ending point. It's also harder for most people to be as unpleasant as they can be in an email. I need to remember this if I get any complainers at the end of this semester.
I'm the reverse of this. I'd rather keep things like grade discussions on email so I can think before responding. Having to react in real time to all of that hostility is too stressful.
If the student's underlying need is to be listened to, and to be heard, then email is not effective and can even be counterproductive. It is really difficult to figure out if that is the case from the initial email.
Quote from: Hibush on April 11, 2021, 03:02:31 AM
If the student's underlying need is to be listened to, and to be heard, then email is not effective and can even be counterproductive. It is really difficult to figure out if that is the case from the initial email.
If their need is to be listened to, they should call home. Not my job. I'm happy to give them info and sort out course problems.
Quote from: downer on April 11, 2021, 04:09:47 AM
Quote from: Hibush on April 11, 2021, 03:02:31 AM
If the student's underlying need is to be listened to, and to be heard, then email is not effective and can even be counterproductive. It is really difficult to figure out if that is the case from the initial email.
If their need is to be listened to, they should call home. Not my job. I'm happy to give them info and sort out course problems.
Think of it like effective management. The student thinks they are being treated unfairly or that some mistake has been made. Obviously there's a power imbalance. The instructors job isn't to make everyone happy with their grade. However, it is their job to listen to the student's complaints and give them fair consideration. (Most student complaints are ridiculous, so that doesn't involve too much work) However, I'd argue that its also the instructors job to give the impression to students that they are doing these things. Certainly, if you can convince students that you grade fairly and listen carefully to their concerns, you'll make your life easier.
I'm always amazed when people brag about how many unsuccessful student grade appeals they have had. It would be like a manager at a company bragging about how often their employee's complaints are rejected by HR. Ok, but unless something particularly weird is going on, it isn't good if everyone feels so angry and mistreated all the time that they are constantly making use of formal appeal processes.
Quote from: Hibush on April 11, 2021, 03:02:31 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 10, 2021, 06:41:53 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 10, 2021, 04:37:08 AM
In person, it's still not a fun conversation, but the student can say their peace, I can listen and respond and the whole thing has an ending point. It's also harder for most people to be as unpleasant as they can be in an email. I need to remember this if I get any complainers at the end of this semester.
I'm the reverse of this. I'd rather keep things like grade discussions on email so I can think before responding. Having to react in real time to all of that hostility is too stressful.
If the student's underlying need is to be listened to, and to be heard, then email is not effective and can even be counterproductive. It is really difficult to figure out if that is the case from the initial email.
As Mamselle says above, it's good to have it documented in case the student insists on pushing the matter. If there's some sort of grade appeal, I want a very clear record of what I said (and, in principle, what I
didn't say).
Maybe it depends on the student population. I find that making the student write out their worry about a grade helps them to articulate what they mean. I've can't remember a case where that sort of issue was not effectively sorted out by email.
If a student is having personal problems such as conflicts with family, and the student can't meet personally, then maybe a phone convo would be appropriate. I know some faculty do act as someone for the student to talk to. But these days, I don't want to take on that role.
Quote from: downer on April 11, 2021, 06:48:27 AM
Maybe it depends on the student population. I find that making the student write out their worry about a grade helps them to articulate what they mean. I've can't remember a case where that sort of issue was not effectively sorted out by email.
If a student is having personal problems such as conflicts with family, and the student can't meet personally, then maybe a phone convo would be appropriate. I know some faculty do act as someone for the student to talk to. But these days, I don't want to take on that role.
And that's way above my pay grade in terms of expertise. The counselling centre exists for a reason; students who are having personal issues serious enough that it impacts their studies need to talk to someone
trained to help them.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 11, 2021, 06:38:05 AM
Quote from: Hibush on April 11, 2021, 03:02:31 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 10, 2021, 06:41:53 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 10, 2021, 04:37:08 AM
In person, it's still not a fun conversation, but the student can say their peace, I can listen and respond and the whole thing has an ending point. It's also harder for most people to be as unpleasant as they can be in an email. I need to remember this if I get any complainers at the end of this semester.
I'm the reverse of this. I'd rather keep things like grade discussions on email so I can think before responding. Having to react in real time to all of that hostility is too stressful.
If the student's underlying need is to be listened to, and to be heard, then email is not effective and can even be counterproductive. It is really difficult to figure out if that is the case from the initial email.
As Mamselle says above, it's good to have it documented in case the student insists on pushing the matter. If there's some sort of grade appeal, I want a very clear record of what I said (and, in principle, what I didn't say).
Well, in general, I would be inclined to respond to the student's initial email with a short response where I tell the student that if they have any more concerns we could go over them in a meeting. So, there would be plenty of documentation. Besides, if you extended this argument, you'd just refuse to discuss grades with students in any format other than email, which would be an odd policy. Besides, how relevant is my explanation of the grade going to be in any appeal?
If a student seems particularly aggrieved or if they seem to be accusing me of bias of some sort, I might be more careful and write a memo after the meeting. If it's a zoom meeting, of course, you can just record it.
Quote from: spork on March 16, 2021, 01:58:13 AM
Pandemic may have permanently altered campus:
https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-pandemic-may-have-permanently-altered-campuses-heres-how (https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-pandemic-may-have-permanently-altered-campuses-heres-how).
(paywalled)
New York community college wants to unload empty dorms to pay off debt from construction of dorms that are now empty:
https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/04/23/new-york-community-college-seeks-sell-dorms (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/04/23/new-york-community-college-seeks-sell-dorms).
Dependence on auxiliary revenue is not a good thing.
Quote from: spork on April 23, 2021, 10:10:56 AM
New York community college wants to unload empty dorms to pay off debt from construction of dorms that are now empty:
https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/04/23/new-york-community-college-seeks-sell-dorms (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/04/23/new-york-community-college-seeks-sell-dorms).
Dependence on auxiliary revenue is not a good thing.
Community colleges trying to be 4-year colleges and building dorms and stuff are not good things.
Quote from: Cheerful on April 23, 2021, 10:29:47 AM
Quote from: spork on April 23, 2021, 10:10:56 AM
New York community college wants to unload empty dorms to pay off debt from construction of dorms that are now empty:
https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/04/23/new-york-community-college-seeks-sell-dorms (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/04/23/new-york-community-college-seeks-sell-dorms).
Dependence on auxiliary revenue is not a good thing.
Community colleges trying to be 4-year colleges and building dorms and stuff are not good things.
Polly recently mentioned on another thread that some CCs have been building dorms to attract students from a wide area to specialized technical programs in which they have a particular strength. Don't know whether that's what the school above was trying to do. At any rate, it doesn't seem to have worked for them.
Consortium of community colleges to offer shared online courses:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/05/27/community-colleges-launch-consortium-share-online-classes (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/05/27/community-colleges-launch-consortium-share-online-classes).
The phrase "address human capital issues" can also mean "reduce instructional labor costs," and the courses most suitable to scaling online are those that count as gen ed requirements at four-year institutions -- not courses in fields like automotive repair or dental hygiene.
Quote from: spork on May 30, 2021, 02:49:21 AM
Consortium of community colleges to offer shared online courses:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/05/27/community-colleges-launch-consortium-share-online-classes (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/05/27/community-colleges-launch-consortium-share-online-classes).
The phrase "address human capital issues" can also mean "reduce instructional labor costs," and the courses most suitable to scaling online are those that count as gen ed requirements at four-year institutions -- not courses in fields like automotive repair or dental hygiene.
It seems abundantly clear that students don't want this stuff.
Make remote work permanent?
'A Mass Exodus': Inflexible Remote-Work Policies Could Bring Major Staff Turnover (https://www.chronicle.com/article/a-mass-exodus-inflexible-remote-work-policies-may-bring-major-staff-turnover-for-colleges) (The Chronicle, paywalled)
Maine community colleges are starting a training program for remote workers in rural areas (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/06/29/maine-community-colleges-train-rural-students-remote-work). Note the underlying assumption about access to broadband internet.
And OPM 2U is buying edX (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/06/29/2u-edx-combine-create-online-learning-behemoth). An operation that went from nothing to a valuation of $800 million in a decade.
Big Urban College just announced that professors will now have the choice to hold office hours fully online (through videoconferencing) for this Fall.
I now expect a mass exodus of professors who won't even come in to work for part/all of the week. We operated like this last year and it was really bad. Requiring mandatory on-campus office hours is one of the few tools in Big Urban College's toolbox to actually get many professors to engage with their colleagues, engage with their students, and carry out their service requirements. The covid pandemic is really taking a wrecking ball to all of that. I don't think that our institution will recover positively from the experience. Too many of our employees are getting used to turtling up at home and only performing the barest minimum of work duties.
Quote from: Aster on August 12, 2021, 07:27:56 AM
Big Urban College just announced that professors will now have the choice to hold office hours fully online (through videoconferencing) for this Fall.
I now expect a mass exodus of professors who won't even come in to work for part/all of the week. We operated like this last year and it was really bad. Requiring mandatory on-campus office hours is one of the few tools in Big Urban College's toolbox to actually get many professors to engage with their colleagues, engage with their students, and carry out their service requirements.
Is there evidence that students have had much less satisfactory interaction with instructors during this time? On here a lot of evidence seems to support a bimodal result; many students have done well remotely, while others have done badly, with less students in the middle than normal.
If the group who did well is large, there may be a lot of students who were completely satisfied with the remote level of engagement.
Quote from: spork on June 29, 2021, 06:28:27 AM
Maine community colleges are starting a training program for remote workers in rural areas (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/06/29/maine-community-colleges-train-rural-students-remote-work). Note the underlying assumption about access to broadband internet.
And OPM 2U is buying edX (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/06/29/2u-edx-combine-create-online-learning-behemoth). An operation that went from nothing to a valuation of $800 million in a decade.
The 《on dit》with edX is that permission costs weren't thought through. So all those ready-to-go courses may have to be pulled or re-done.
Permissions for a non-profit are much lower than a for-profit organization...
Oops.
M.
Quote from: marshwiggle on August 12, 2021, 07:50:21 AM
Quote from: Aster on August 12, 2021, 07:27:56 AM
Big Urban College just announced that professors will now have the choice to hold office hours fully online (through videoconferencing) for this Fall.
I now expect a mass exodus of professors who won't even come in to work for part/all of the week. We operated like this last year and it was really bad. Requiring mandatory on-campus office hours is one of the few tools in Big Urban College's toolbox to actually get many professors to engage with their colleagues, engage with their students, and carry out their service requirements.
Is there evidence that students have had much less satisfactory interaction with instructors during this time? On here a lot of evidence seems to support a bimodal result; many students have done well remotely, while others have done badly, with less students in the middle than normal.
If the group who did well is large, there may be a lot of students who were completely satisfied with the remote level of engagement.
No. It is the almost complete opposite. Reducing professor access directly correlates with reducing student interaction. I've fielded more complaints about other professors in the last year than I have in the previous 5 years combined. Our administration has received so many complaints that way back last Spring, they directly specified that even if our classes stayed fully remote this Fall, every professor would still be required to work on campus every day, and be physically available to meet with students. That was pre-delta, of course. The nastier covid variant has thrown a wrench into things. I'm half expecting that my few traditional classes will be reverted back to fully remote within the next few weeks.
As to "doing well remotely", I would not think that we can reasonably meter that in the current environment where so many professors and courses have been dialing down their assessments and curriculum to better accommodate students in these trying times. I have to ask around pretty hard to find any professors at my institution (or even in the greater metropolitan area) who haven't eased up on their student expectations over the past year. Many of us have temporarily eased up quite a lot. Those of us that teach higher level courses with re-requisites will be paying for it later with extensive remedial student support, but we knew that at the start.
Quote from: Aster on August 12, 2021, 07:27:56 AM
Big Urban College just announced that professors will now have the choice to hold office hours fully online (through videoconferencing) for this Fall.
I now expect a mass exodus of professors who won't even come in to work for part/all of the week. We operated like this last year and it was really bad. Requiring mandatory on-campus office hours is one of the few tools in Big Urban College's toolbox to actually get many professors to engage with their colleagues, engage with their students, and carry out their service requirements. The covid pandemic is really taking a wrecking ball to all of that. I don't think that our institution will recover positively from the experience. Too many of our employees are getting used to turtling up at home and only performing the barest minimum of work duties.
Do professors in STEM have more students coming to office hours? I plan to have office hours in person next semester, but its pretty rare for students to show up at them unannounced. I sometimes have a student who enjoys coming by office hours fairly regularly, but most students make appointments. I found virtual meetings with students fine. You lose a lot more in a classroom setting online than you do in a one on one meeting.
Quote from: Caracal on August 13, 2021, 06:08:05 AM
Quote from: Aster on August 12, 2021, 07:27:56 AM
Big Urban College just announced that professors will now have the choice to hold office hours fully online (through videoconferencing) for this Fall.
I now expect a mass exodus of professors who won't even come in to work for part/all of the week. We operated like this last year and it was really bad. Requiring mandatory on-campus office hours is one of the few tools in Big Urban College's toolbox to actually get many professors to engage with their colleagues, engage with their students, and carry out their service requirements. The covid pandemic is really taking a wrecking ball to all of that. I don't think that our institution will recover positively from the experience. Too many of our employees are getting used to turtling up at home and only performing the barest minimum of work duties.
Do professors in STEM have more students coming to office hours? I plan to have office hours in person next semester, but its pretty rare for students to show up at them unannounced. I sometimes have a student who enjoys coming by office hours fairly regularly, but most students make appointments. I found virtual meetings with students fine. You lose a lot more in a classroom setting online than you do in a one on one meeting.
Maybe? Especially when we teach classes that can be problem based. Most of my classes have some sort of weekly assignments, and if I position my office hours in the two days before they are due, I get so many takers that I usually (pre pandemic) schedule them in a conference room with a whiteboard instead of my actual office, so I can work through common questions with small groups of people.
I would say that in most of my classes about 25-30% of students attend office hours on a regular basis (class sizes ranging from 40-90). And frequently during an active in person office hour, small groups of students will peer-coach one another when they have different questions and are waiting for me to get around to them.
This semester, I actually found an open classroom to have some in-person office hours, the rest will be Zoom.
Quote from: Caracal on August 13, 2021, 06:08:05 AM
Quote from: Aster on August 12, 2021, 07:27:56 AM
Big Urban College just announced that professors will now have the choice to hold office hours fully online (through videoconferencing) for this Fall.
I now expect a mass exodus of professors who won't even come in to work for part/all of the week. We operated like this last year and it was really bad. Requiring mandatory on-campus office hours is one of the few tools in Big Urban College's toolbox to actually get many professors to engage with their colleagues, engage with their students, and carry out their service requirements. The covid pandemic is really taking a wrecking ball to all of that. I don't think that our institution will recover positively from the experience. Too many of our employees are getting used to turtling up at home and only performing the barest minimum of work duties.
Do professors in STEM have more students coming to office hours? I plan to have office hours in person next semester, but its pretty rare for students to show up at them unannounced. I sometimes have a student who enjoys coming by office hours fairly regularly, but most students make appointments. I found virtual meetings with students fine. You lose a lot more in a classroom setting online than you do in a one on one meeting.
In STEM? I'm not sure. Maybe?
There are just so many variables that can and do affect the frequency of office hour visitation by students. Type of institution. Selectivity of the institution. Whether or not the institution is mostly residential or mostly commuter. Student demographic breakdown of the institution. Discipline of the course. Level of the course. Curriculum model of the course. Duration of the course. Term of the course. Cohort level of the student. Class size. Distance from classroom to the professor's office. Distance from student dormitories/parking lots to professor's office. Interior space and appearance of the professor's office. Whether or not the professor's door is physically open or closed during office hours. Gender of the professor. Appearance of the professor. Age of the professor. Demeanor of the professor. Specific day/time scheduling of office hours. Frequency of office hours offered per week. The list of confounding factors goes on and on.
Through long observation at multiple universities, I can confidently state that there can be professors who teach identical courses at the same institution, with even identical curriculum plans, but some professors will almost never have students that drop in to chat, while others will have an endless stream queued out the door.
So yeah, students might use office hours a lot. Or they might not.
Quote from: Caracal on August 13, 2021, 06:08:05 AM
Quote from: Aster on August 12, 2021, 07:27:56 AM
Big Urban College just announced that professors will now have the choice to hold office hours fully online (through videoconferencing) for this Fall.
I now expect a mass exodus of professors who won't even come in to work for part/all of the week. We operated like this last year and it was really bad. Requiring mandatory on-campus office hours is one of the few tools in Big Urban College's toolbox to actually get many professors to engage with their colleagues, engage with their students, and carry out their service requirements. The covid pandemic is really taking a wrecking ball to all of that. I don't think that our institution will recover positively from the experience. Too many of our employees are getting used to turtling up at home and only performing the barest minimum of work duties.
Do professors in STEM have more students coming to office hours? I plan to have office hours in person next semester, but its pretty rare for students to show up at them unannounced. I sometimes have a student who enjoys coming by office hours fairly regularly, but most students make appointments. I found virtual meetings with students fine. You lose a lot more in a classroom setting online than you do in a one on one meeting.
My students in STEM come to office hours without making an appointment. I just give them a Zoom personal meeting room address and the time my office hours are held, and they show up unannouced during that window. My Zoom personal meeting room is set up so that participants are automatically placed in a waiting room and I have to admit them manually, which allows me to discuss more student specific issues if necessary.
One response to the crisis will surprise nobody.
The Wall Street Journal ranking (https://www.wsj.com/articles/2022-best-colleges-us-rankings-11632245235?mod=TW_ACQ_College_Rankings_2022&twclid=11445746071070642187)s just came out, and they found that the top of the rankings will not be restructured at all.
"Why are the rankings so stable at the top? In part because the world outside those university walls is so unstable. Schools with the spending power to cope with the falling revenues and rising costs many have experienced as a result of the pandemic fare well in the rankings. Of the top 20 schools overall, all but two also rank in the top 20 for academic resources."
The academic resources parameter reflects the academic spending per student, which is between $50 and $100 thousand per year for this group of schools.