My employer has random covid testing (a lottery of all employees daily akin to random drug testing). My number came up for tomorrow with the claim that they are doing ten tests every hour with a couple day turnaround. We are to expect an email for negative and a phone call with discussion for positive.
What are other people's experiences with employment-related covid testing as we zoom into fall?
Sorry for laughing out loud after reading that. I highly doubt that my employer will do anything like this.
No employer testing, but I am getting tested every time I get a cold. I have elderly parents.
Once the fall semester starts, the plan is that everyone on campus will be tested twice a week with an anterior nasal swab (not the kind the verges on a frontal lobotomy), with a 24 hour or less turn around time. Testing is being done locally through a neighboring university med school center, not with commercial tests (so faster and much less expensive) and may be done at least partially in-house once FDA approval comes through.
Quote from: polly_mer on July 14, 2020, 02:30:12 PM
My employer has random covid testing (a lottery of all employees daily akin to random drug testing). My number came up for tomorrow with the claim that they are doing ten tests every hour with a couple day turnaround. We are to expect an email for negative and a phone call with discussion for positive.
What are other people's experiences with employment-related covid testing as we zoom into fall?
Antibody screening or PCR for diagnostic purposes?
I see Artem U doing this just as soon as Trump falls to his knees and confesses all his sins and transgressions on the steps of the National Cathedral.
Nah, it's Anglican.
I think he's (well, maybe) learned his lesson about Episcopalians....
M.
My university said there are some legal issues with doing random testing on employees, so they plan to do random testing on students instead.
No testing here, that I know of. We will receive some kind of email surveys to fill out at intervals. And perhaps temperature monitoring (but again, no details about when/how that will happen).
Our campus has all but declared that almost all of our courses will be remote. In my dept, no one is allowed to actually teach on campus (the classrooms are being reserved for lab courses, etc). Students are going back, though.
We're supposed to have testing available for all employees, but as far as I know it is on a voluntary basis. Not sure about students.
I'm hearing that my university plans on testing everyone, and doing temperature checks as each person arrives on campus every day. I was wondering if there were privacy/HIPAA concerns. I also suspect they won't be able to pull this off, logistically or financially.
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 14, 2020, 03:45:56 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 14, 2020, 02:30:12 PM
My employer has random covid testing (a lottery of all employees daily akin to random drug testing). My number came up for tomorrow with the claim that they are doing ten tests every hour with a couple day turnaround. We are to expect an email for negative and a phone call with discussion for positive.
What are other people's experiences with employment-related covid testing as we zoom into fall?
Antibody screening or PCR for diagnostic purposes?
Unclear. It could be either since we're doing modeling for many entities including the county and we're also trying to stay open with people on campus, but the number of cases has more than doubled in the past few days.
I show up at the given place at the given time and follow instructions if I still want to have a job.
IOW, you'll get fired if you refuse to take the test? How does your libertarian ethos handle that, especially given the 'random lottery' nature of the test, rather than requiring it of all staff?
As to unis requiring students to take such tests, I wonder how many of them will submit to them, esp. after an initial test given to students on their return to campus? Indeed, I am deeply pessimistic regarding the likelihood that campus reopening plans containing significant lifestyle restrictions on students will meet with widespread postadolescent compliance, or that, ultimately, unis will try to do much to enforce such compliance.
Quote from: sinenomine on July 14, 2020, 04:28:16 PM
I'm hearing that my university plans on testing everyone, and doing temperature checks as each person arrives on campus every day. I was wondering if there were privacy/HIPAA concerns. I also suspect they won't be able to pull this off, logistically or financially.
There's been a lot of talk about batch testing as a cheap and effective alternative. The problem is that it only works if positivity in the student population is relatively low and if you the ability to get results quickly.
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 14, 2020, 10:29:09 PM
As to unis requiring students to take such tests, I wonder how many of them will submit to them, esp. after an initial test given to students on their return to campus? Indeed, I am deeply pessimistic regarding the likelihood that campus reopening plans containing significant lifestyle restrictions on students will meet with widespread postadolescent compliance, or that, ultimately, unis will try to do much to enforce such compliance.
I think you're overestimating the tendency of people to actually defy regulations when they are clear and enforceable. I think the trick would be making continued enrollment dependent on keeping up with the tests and making it as easy to do as possible. I'd also want to see structures that didn't make instructors the main enforcers of the system. If you had a system that built in a couple of days leeway around the deadline that would be good too. Student gets a email and text message that they need to go do the test. If they don't do it, they get another one the next day, and a note shows up for their teachers for two days that says to remind them they won't be able to attend classes after that date without a test. If they are in campus housing, RA goes and tries to find them etc. After that, they get suspended from enrollment until they do it
As an instructor, then I'm in the position of being the guy who gives them the friendly reminder about this administrative requirement rather than being the heavy. It would be even better if they put a few testing stations around campus and it could become a thing you just do on your way to and from class. Of course, the problem is that all this takes money...
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 14, 2020, 10:29:09 PM
IOW, you'll get fired if you refuse to take the test? How does your libertarian ethos handle that, especially given the 'random lottery' nature of the test, rather than requiring it of all staff?
At this moment, I'm not going to explain how real libertarianism differs from stupid assertions by blowhards regarding libertarianism. I'll leave it at anarchists believe in no rules; libertarians tend to ask the purpose of the rules and want to discuss the trade-offs.
Personally, I already evaluated the known trade-offs in this particular job between restricted personal, civilian activities and the value to the common good by accepting the trade-offs. Adding this random test on top of the other trade-offs is no biggie compared to other trade-offs already made. We take safety seriously and this is minor compared to other trade-offs.
Under the new rules, I can be fired for being onsite outside of the schedule put in place for attendance.
I can be fired for working onsite on non-approved tasks, because time onsite was approved as being worth the risk for specific tasks that cannot be done at home and are a matter of national import on strict deadlines. There is no penalty for contacting management to skip a day onsite when there aren't enough tasks to justify going in or when one has any of the listed symptoms.
I can also be fired for not wearing a mask onsite or by getting a big enough fine for not following the state regulations currently in effect.
I can be fired for not following the current sanitation protocols currently in effect including following the process for pre-meeting and post-meeting sanitizing a room.
I can be fired for not following social distancing guidelines and not following the additional processes in place for when six feet of space cannot be maintained for necessary work.
I can be fired for having/attending an in-person meeting that is too large (greater than 3 people) without the required permissions and safety plan in place with at least one premeeting telecon to review the safety plan.
In addition, there's no penalty for positive/negative results on this particular test, unlike most of the other tests that come up regularly in this job. People who come back positive get adequate paid sick leave to stay home if unable to work. Those who can work from home are given permission to do so. The daily newsletter is filled with reports of people who are working from home taking courses, catching up on relevant reading, and other activities because their normal jobs can't be done at home.
Even with all those precautions, serious penalties for violating precautions, and a current default of work from home for nearly all employees, the number of cases is rising.
Knowing all that is why I'm quite certain fall on higher ed campuses is unlikely to go well with people who aren't great with obeying every safety rule every time.
^ I would like to contrast this institutional response with the one I experienced three years ago when I wanted an improperly-behaving first-semester student barred from attending class. The vice president of student affairs said that because I had indicated that I did not feel physically threatened by the student, I could not file an assault complaint with the police, and therefore the university would do nothing.
We are being told that there will be a testing protocol in place, and a requirement that everyone, including students, wear masks. But I doubt the university is going to have security personnel physically remove students from the classroom if they refuse to wear a mask properly or refuse to engage in social distancing.
We will not be testing -- we do not have the funds for it. Faculty, staff, and students are supposed to monitor their health, with students recording temperature etc. on an app. Students will be given one cloth mask. Plexiglass is apparently being placed in classrooms. Cameras etc. have been added to some classrooms in order to provide hyflex classes.
I have very little confidence that any of this will work.
I'm back. The test was the nose swab, so looking for current infection.
The nurse was correct that the swabbing was probably the longest five seconds of my day*. However, it's fine now, although my ear on that side feels a little full.
We do our own processing, so the claim is results within 48 h.
However, even with our pretty good logistics and planning, this first week has slow enough throughput due to the person-by-person briefing before testing that I bet next week will have a slightly different process to avoid backup into the driving lanes.
*Although the day is still early and I have to walk up 10 flights of stairs to get to my office this afternoon.
Quote from: spork on July 15, 2020, 05:36:46 AM
^ I would like to contrast this institutional response with the one I experienced three years ago when I wanted an improperly-behaving first-semester student barred from attending class. The vice president of student affairs said that because I had indicated that I did not feel physically threatened by the student, I could not file an assault complaint with the police, and therefore the university would do nothing.
We are being told that there will be a testing protocol in place, and a requirement that everyone, including students, wear masks. But I doubt the university is going to have security personnel physically remove students from the classroom if they refuse to wear a mask properly or refuse to engage in social distancing.
There are lots of reasons I'm increasingly concerned about fall classes, but this isn't a worry for me. Maybe this is just really dependent on institution, but I've been teaching for a pretty long time at this point, mostly at non-elite state schools, and I've yet to encounter open defiance where I've asked a student to do something and they've refused. If I teach in the classroom in the fall I plan to bring a few spare disposable masks for people who forget. If anyone takes off a mask during class, I'd ask them to put it back on. If it happened again, I'd say it again and emphasize that they can't be here without keeping it on. In 99 percent of cases, that will fix the problem.
You've been lucky if you've never had open defiance. When I was an adjunct, they handed out a CHE article about faculty being physically threatened. One of the first-person examples was from my main employer where I had had encounters.
My worst encounter, though, was at an elite institution as a TA. As the first-person account said, I just kept repeating that he probably won't hit me on the first swing.
I'll ignore the stupid assertion that I am a blowhard who does not understand libertarianism. I understand it fine, which is why the Libertarian party is such a nonstarter.
Caracal's notion is theoretically sound, in terms of how it would be that a school could enforce compliance to testing and other mandates. The problem with this (assuming school has the money to do these things and the infrastructure, etc.) is that the students may well not care if they suffer the sanction involved. Indeed, many of them, forced to take covid tests repeatedly, eat solo in their rooms, etc., may well say, no grazie, I am outtahere, taking a leave, etc., taking tuition check with me, transferring to someplace that will not do these things to me, etc. Only the most elite schools will have the chops, cachet, whatever, to resist such, and mewonders whether places like this, not generally known for draconian or 19th c-style in loco parentis policies, will want to impose them, even if they could get away with them.
Quote from: polly_mer on July 15, 2020, 03:58:37 PM
You've been lucky if you've never had open defiance. When I was an adjunct, they handed out a CHE article about faculty being physically threatened. One of the first-person examples was from my main employer where I had had encounters.
My worst encounter, though, was at an elite institution as a TA. As the first-person account said, I just kept repeating that he probably won't hit me on the first swing.
I'll say that I'm aware that these things can be effected by gender, race and the way people perceive you. I'm a relatively tall, white dude who isn't usually perceived as particularly threatening or confrontational. In various ways, I think that combination helps me avoid being or feeling threatened by students and I'm not trying to discount anyone's experience.
Quote from: Caracal on July 16, 2020, 04:41:12 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 15, 2020, 03:58:37 PM
You've been lucky if you've never had open defiance. When I was an adjunct, they handed out a CHE article about faculty being physically threatened. One of the first-person examples was from my main employer where I had had encounters.
My worst encounter, though, was at an elite institution as a TA. As the first-person account said, I just kept repeating that he probably won't hit me on the first swing.
I'll say that I'm aware that these things can be effected by gender, race and the way people perceive you. I'm a relatively tall, white dude who isn't usually perceived as particularly threatening or confrontational. In various ways, I think that combination helps me avoid being or feeling threatened by students and I'm not trying to discount anyone's experience.
In contrast, I am frequently the only woman in the room for any professional purposes and often taught the weedout courses to people who were angry about standards that meant they would not be able to continue in the program.
The guy who most worried me had a good six inches and a hundred pounds on me. He stepped into my personal space so we were less than a foot apart while telling me how my class would go for the next 10 minutes because he wasn't happy with his grade, me, or the whole situation.
He was wrong and backed down when I stood my ground since I had a rough-and-tumble childhood and was young enough that I would be able to fight at that point if push came to shove. The eliteness meant he expected physical intimidation to be enough. I was much less sanguine about the regional comprehensive where the students also came from backgrounds where physical violence was more common.
I would actually be more worried about more privileged people deciding they can quietly and politely ignore "suggestions" because all that happens is another reminder.
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 15, 2020, 11:33:53 PM
I'll ignore the stupid assertion that I am a blowhard who does not understand libertarianism. I understand it fine, which is why the Libertarian party is such a nonstarter.
The fact that you asked the question means you don't 'understand it fine'.
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 15, 2020, 11:33:53 PM
Caracal's notion is theoretically sound, in terms of how it would be that a school could enforce compliance to testing and other mandates. The problem with this (assuming school has the money to do these things and the infrastructure, etc.) is that the students may well not care if they suffer the sanction involved. Indeed, many of them, forced to take covid tests repeatedly, eat solo in their rooms, etc., may well say, no grazie, I am outtahere, taking a leave, etc., taking tuition check with me, transferring to someplace that will not do these things to me, etc. Only the most elite schools will have the chops, cachet, whatever, to resist such, and mewonders whether places like this, not generally known for draconian or 19th c-style in loco parentis policies, will want to impose them, even if they could get away with them.
Well, I don't think it would work unless you have reasonable policies that students can live with. Students have to be able to go places and see people. You can't ask them to just eat in their rooms by themselves. Even if they are temporarily quarantined, having students do it in their dorm room isn't really feasible.
As for the sanctions, I think it would work as long as the sanctions were just natural penalties. This is how it works, it is easy to do, you get lots of warnings and a little bit of a grace period, but then you can't go to class. If you combine that with making it easy to do, I think it would probably more or less work ok. But, whatever, all this is premised on not having Covid all over the place, like we do now, so it feels increasingly like a theoretical discussion.
The 'lots of warnings' approach is how you guarantee large-scale non-compliance.
The assertion that you can't have people actually do what's necessary to prevent spread is how we got to where we are as a nation.
In other words, if people won't stay alone/small isolated bubbles as much as possible with only necessary trips while wearing masks, then we keep spreading the virus.
The easy actions are staying isolated, wearing masks, and handwashing.
Quote from: polly_mer on July 16, 2020, 05:41:53 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 16, 2020, 04:41:12 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 15, 2020, 03:58:37 PM
You've been lucky if you've never had open defiance. When I was an adjunct, they handed out a CHE article about faculty being physically threatened. One of the first-person examples was from my main employer where I had had encounters.
My worst encounter, though, was at an elite institution as a TA. As the first-person account said, I just kept repeating that he probably won't hit me on the first swing.
I'll say that I'm aware that these things can be effected by gender, race and the way people perceive you. I'm a relatively tall, white dude who isn't usually perceived as particularly threatening or confrontational. In various ways, I think that combination helps me avoid being or feeling threatened by students and I'm not trying to discount anyone's experience.
In contrast, I am frequently the only woman in the room for any professional purposes and often taught the weedout courses to people who were angry about standards that meant they would not be able to continue in the program.
The guy who most worried me had a good six inches and a hundred pounds on me. He stepped into my personal space so we were less than a foot apart while telling me how my class would go for the next 10 minutes because he wasn't happy with his grade, me, or the whole situation.
Right, I think the kind of men who like pulling that move aren't likely to do it to a guy close to their own size. I'm sure you handled it better than I would. Just about all adult confrontations I've had have involved sports and I usually become comically amped up and start yelling at people in ways that I find embarrassing later...
Quote from: polly_mer on July 16, 2020, 06:45:16 AM
The 'lots of warnings' approach is how you guarantee large-scale non-compliance.
The assertion that you can't have people actually do what's necessary to prevent spread is how we got to where we are as a nation.
I don't mean no penalties for non-compliance. I'm just imagining a system where there's a little built in leeway. Like suppose the real date the person needs to be tested before is Tuesday. On Monday morning they get the text that they need to do it that day. If they haven't done it by 3, they get another text. Then one more that night. Another one Tuesday that they can't come to class unless they go do the test first.. On Tuesday, if they show up in class their instructor tells them they have to go do the test before they can come back to class. Ideally, there's a testing place 5 minutes away and they can actually just come back to class with the authorization.
I think that's the version that could work on a college campus.
I was given a week's notice for the random test with a reminder the day before for an 0700 test appointment.
However, having been responsible for mandatory activities at Super Dinky where the penalty is not graduating, I would not want to put all the faculty members in the position of having to deny entry to class to non-compliant students.
Having been the administrator in charge of activities where the failure to comply meant significant consequences for the institution and therefore we created consequences for faculty and staff to do their part, I wouldn't want to have to create additional penalties to get faculty to enforce the rules.
I've been amazed at how many humans (faculty, staff, students) just blow off reminders for things they don't want to do. You asked about deadlines for submitting grades and I've been the person who had to physically stand over faculty to get them to submit grades that were late enough to be causing problems. More reminders tends to have the opposite effects because the channel is filled with noise.
In addition, being the enforcer is not pleasant and can be confrontational. Again, I have experiences with large students and even faculty trying to physically intimidate me. I've had students my size flip out and throw things while screaming. I've experienced vandalism to my office and I'm pretty sure that was faculty who had keys.
Speaking for myself I have different things to think about, being on only part time contracts. If I am determined to be a carrier of COVID-19 but asymptomatic, I can expect to be sent home. Like all poor slobs who have work for a living, that's fine with me, as long as they still have to pay me. But what happens next semester?
I still think you are vastly overestimating the willingness of these kids to submit to some of these proposals, and, now that you mention it, the willingness of schools and esp professors, to become covid cops. We will see what happens, but the kids do have an easy out, and methinks many will take it, And there will be schools which, for whatever reason(s), will offer them an alternative that they will gravitate towards.
And what if the college is located in a rural area with open defiance of masking, encouraged by local elected officialdom?
Oh, I don't think extensive testing on most college campuses will happen for logistical and human reasons. The campuses small enough to do a good job with logistics and human factors don't have the resources and the campuses that could have the resources are big enough that the human factor combined with resource allocation by priorities make extensive testing unlikely.
My test did come back in under 48 h and it's "presumptive negative". The presumptive label exists because results have to be reviewed by the state lab to be official. However, my employer has real, qualified medical personnel who take the samples and real, qualified scientists who run the PCR and make a determination,
I've been called again for the random covid testing at my work with a week's notice.
I'm amused by the reminder message this morning (paraphrased slightly to eliminate the identifying details).
Reminder: <appointment details>
Do NOT go into the clinic. Follow the instructions for the drive-through testing in the original invitation.
Remember to check in with the front desk at the clinic unless you are scheduled for a telemedicine appointment or COVID-19 testing.
Call <this number> (option N) if you are unable to keep your appointment.