The Fora: A Higher Education Community

K16, just to give you some perspective. At my compass point U We currently have two staff advisors total for all the Biology, Chemistry, and Physics majors. Faculty are not part of the advising process. This ends up with each advisor having a "load" of approximately 3-400 students. It is not physically possible for them to meet with ALL the students immediately prior to registration. So they don't. Students can choose to meet with them, but it is not required.
That is how these things sometimes happen. But students also need to take responsibility for their own path. We have worksheets that lay out these type of requirements in a very simple checkbox format. Those that refuse to be in control of their degree progression will hopefully learn from that experience.

Quote from: mythbuster on February 14, 2024, 01:26:00 PMK16, just to give you some perspective. At my compass point U We currently have two staff advisors total for all the Biology, Chemistry, and Physics majors. Faculty are not part of the advising process. This ends up with each advisor having a "load" of approximately 3-400 students. It is not physically possible for them to meet with ALL the students immediately prior to registration. So they don't. Students can choose to meet with them, but it is not required.
That is how these things sometimes happen. But students also need to take responsibility for their own path. We have worksheets that lay out these type of requirements in a very simple checkbox format. Those that refuse to be in control of their degree progression will hopefully learn from that experience.

Correct, and here they don't even have to fill out a checklist themselves, they have it filled out automatically in Workday for them-- it shows them exactly which requirements they have met and what is left to meet. Plus, they all fill out a worksheet with planned courses when they declare a major, and can sign up for an advising appointment any time they want if they have questions. These are young adults that are about to launch into the real world where they will need to take personal responsibility for their lives, so I think it it's pretty reasonable to ask them to take responsibility for verifying they are on track to graduate using the easy tools at their disposal to do so. Forcing them to meet with an advisor before registering is a non-starter outside very small SLACs.

That sort of super-handholding is part of the appeal of SLACs.  Not practical at many larger schools.

At FishProf U, students HAVE to meet with advisors in order to register during the pre-reg period.  After that is over, the unwise can register for what is left, without guidance, if they so choose.  Alas, the ones that do significantly overlap with those who shouldn't.

Yup, average advisor load at my flagship R1 is about 300 students. The only time students are required to meet with an advisor is to fill out an application to graduate. And our student progress system is not 100% accurate about whether students are on track to graduate. A non-zero number of students run into problems at that point, which is 3 weeks into what students fondly hope is their last semester.

I get that big unis do not operate like SLACs, but irrespective of the overworked professional 'advisors', what exactly is the responsibility of the actual professors here (slac biases showing here, of course)?  Those of you who have followed me over the years know well that I do not believe that traditional-aged undergrads are adults, and of course, all the biological research over the last two generations, well, backs me up.

I do advising of students in our major at my R1. They get emails urging them to come in and see me regularly. A few come in every semester. Some come in or consult me by email about once a year. Most consult me in their senior year, to make sure they're on target to graduate. It helps that our advising software is accurate, so they can see their progress clearly online without having to talk to anybody. Generally the ones in trouble are the ones who switched majors late and have lots of requirements to get in. They sometimes have to take an extra summer or an extra semester.

Quote from: kaysixteen on February 14, 2024, 08:53:55 PMI get that big unis do not operate like SLACs, but irrespective of the overworked professional 'advisors', what exactly is the responsibility of the actual professors here (slac biases showing here, of course)?  Those of you who have followed me over the years know well that I do not believe that traditional-aged undergrads are adults, and of course, all the biological research over the last two generations, well, backs me up.

The majority of students, (I'm tempted to say the vast majority of students), do a decent job of organizing their lives. It is a minority, (which varies by institution, no doubt), that create their own chaos. In my experience at my uni, I'd say 10-20% of first year students would be in that category. Letting those off by saying "their brains aren't baked yet" is insulting to the rest who take on the responsibility for their own success rather than trying to claim that it's someone else's.

A lot of the above sounds like what happens when institutions replace actual people with software systems.

I went to a SLAC where students were all advised by hand.  I also recall the profs at the R1 where I was in the 1990s advising undergrads as well as grads.  This discussion has really opened my eyes to just how bare-bones (and, apparently in many cases, sub-optimal) advising has become in many places.

Faculty here don't do advising, and I am highly grateful to our advisors. They deal with many more bureaucratic issues regarding transfers etc. than I could ever wrap my head around. In that regard much of the advising is not really subject specific. Given that, I make sure the students in my classes know that I am available and happy to chat with them about registration and that I am more knowledgeable about our curriculum than many- since I'm the department curriculum head.
   My alma mater also required us to meet with a faculty advisor in order to register. However, mine always said up front that his job was not to worry about the minutia of progress towards degree. For that he sent you to the department  office staff. He was much more interested in my overall education, was I gaining research experience etc. In that regard he was a truly amazing advisor. But if I had a an issue with a transferred course he would have been less than useless.

Quote from: apl68 on February 15, 2024, 07:38:08 AMA lot of the above sounds like what happens when institutions replace actual people with software systems.

I went to a SLAC where students were all advised by hand.  I also recall the profs at the R1 where I was in the 1990s advising undergrads as well as grads.  This discussion has really opened my eyes to just how bare-bones (and, apparently in many cases, sub-optimal) advising has become in many places.

At my former CC, some of that goes on the faculty. We had a lot of classes and programs that were out of date, made no sense, or were created by someone who had some strange ideas about how the world worked.

Students (and counselors) would see something that looked good, then follow some very strange paths before realizing they had wasted a lot of time and units on programs that had no transfer, graduation, or job value.

But when you tried to say "well, why do we have this..." there would be lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth about... the neoliberal completion agenda, how people don't REALLY need Bachelor's degrees (from people with Master's degrees and PhDs), blah blah blah.

It is certainly true that in most non-slac places, academic advising is more or less nothing of the sort.   I have seen job ads around here for 'academic advisor' positions in various schools (mostly but not always state schools of various stripes), and these jobs are low-paid positions requiring BAs and often essentially entry-level, filled by 23yos.  In what universe is it acceptable to require college kids, many of whom (esp at this sort of place) to be 'advised' by people who, ahem, well, errr... have no business being advisors themselves?   And how hard would it be to have, say, at the beginning of any given semester, each prof in an upper-level major class to run through all the students (or, if too large, to have the profs split up the students across all the classes), look quickly at their transcripts, and say, esp to seniors, 'lookee here, you need, right now, to sign up for course x, or you will not be able to graduate this semester)?  I confess I am trying hard to resist the temptation that schools not doing this bare minimum service for their kids, are perhaps hoping the kids will not sign up for the required class and thereby have to pay tuition for at least one additional semester.

Quote from: kaysixteen on February 16, 2024, 11:07:05 PMIt is certainly true that in most non-slac places, academic advising is more or less nothing of the sort.  I have seen job ads around here for 'academic advisor' positions in various schools (mostly but not always state schools of various stripes), and these jobs are low-paid positions requiring BAs and often essentially entry-level, filled by 23yos.  In what universe is it acceptable to require college kids, many of whom (esp at this sort of place) to be 'advised' by people who, ahem, well, errr... have no business being advisors themselves?  And how hard would it be to have, say, at the beginning of any given semester, each prof in an upper-level major class to run through all the students (or, if too large, to have the profs split up the students across all the classes), look quickly at their transcripts, and say, esp to seniors, 'lookee here, you need, right now, to sign up for course x, or you will not be able to graduate this semester)?  I confess I am trying hard to resist the temptation that schools not doing this bare minimum service for their kids, are perhaps hoping the kids will not sign up for the required class and thereby have to pay tuition for at least one additional semester.

For a long time our advising was handled by faculty members in departments. What happened is that so many of them made careless errors that the higher-ups were always having to step in and make exceptions, calm down hysterical students who couldn't graduate but had been assured by faculty that they had fulfilled their requirements, and so forth. And the faculty members would say, "Look, I'm paid to be an expert in my subject, not an expert in the labyrinthine and ever-changing rules of this university."

Finally the university saw the light and started hiring full-time advisors and giving them extensive training. One person per department was retained to be the expert on that department's offerings, but the general education requirements are left up to the professional advisors. (I actually do also advise our students on the gen ed requirements, because I actually understand them, but it is clear that many of my colleagues don't and don't care to.)

I think the takeaway is: don't entrust important functions to people who don't want to do them and who cannot be fired for doing them very badly.

Over the years, my school has gone back and forth.

When I started out, a student needed to be advised each semester before registering for courses. The advising was done by full-time faculty members. This meant, for the faculty members, that usually at least a full day each week was spent advising the students. The good thing is this meant that the faculty got to know their majors. The downside is that takes a lot of time and effort, and professors are not necessarily good at it.

In terms of time, it involves looking at each transcript of the student, which is not always simple since students often have ten years' of transcripts from different schools, some in foreign countries, and figuring out which requirements they have met. The major requirements are usually straight forward, but the general education requirements are often more complicated, depending on how much education a student already has, when they started at the school, etc. Then there is meeting with the student, which often takes between 15 and 20 minutes. And in complicated cases, it was necessary for the advisor to write down notes to explain the advice. So each student can take anywhere from 20 minutes (if straightforward) to close to an hour, plus secretarial help (finding students file, printing the transcript, refiling the file, making the appointment for the student).

Then a while back the school hired professional advisors and make advising optional (as well as drastically cut down on secretarial help). When this works, it works well, because the advisors advise students for particular majors, and they work closely with the department. When it works poorly, it doesn't work.

Part of my job is to clear the transcripts of graduating majors--i.e., sign off that they have met the major requirements. Most of the students are fine, but there are some student who end up taking too many classes, not enough, or, worse, too many of some courses but not enough of another (e.g., they have taken too many European basket weaving courses but not enough Asian basket weaving courses). My job is often more than an art than a science--i.e., creatively finding ways to make the courses they have taken fit their requirements: for example, courses on Ottoman or Russian basket weaving have been known to count for either European or Asian basket weaving, as the need may be). But I have the discretion to do this, while other faculty and advisors do not.

I always tell students that while they do not need to see an faculty advisor each semester, that they closer to graduate, they should see one at least once a year. That is, around their junior year.

At the end of the day (or four years), it is the student's responsibility to do what is necessary to move ahead (or not). I agree with kay that students do not always make the best decisions, but I disagree that they are incapable of doing it. In general, I oppose in loco parentis, but especially on things like this. (Also, parents are not always very good at advising. It is a nightmare when a student wants to bring his mom or dad to an advising section. And when I was a student, I learned very quickly not to talk to my mom--who was an English major--about what courses I should take since she always wanted me to take Shakespeare, which was not particularly appropriate for a history major.)

Quote from: Hegemony on February 17, 2024, 12:37:22 AMFor a long time our advising was handled by faculty members in departments. What happened is that so many of them made careless errors that the higher-ups were always having to step in and make exceptions, calm down hysterical students who couldn't graduate but had been assured by faculty that they had fulfilled their requirements, and so forth. And the faculty members would say, "Look, I'm paid to be an expert in my subject, not an expert in the labyrinthine and ever-changing rules of this university."

Finally the university saw the light and started hiring full-time advisors and giving them extensive training. One person per department was retained to be the expert on that department's offerings, but the general education requirements are left up to the professional advisors. (I actually do also advise our students on the gen ed requirements, because I actually understand them, but it is clear that many of my colleagues don't and don't care to.)

I think the takeaway is: don't entrust important functions to people who don't want to do them and who cannot be fired for doing them very badly.

The faculty advisor model that I recall seemed to work at a SLAC.  In bigger schools where production of students is more industrial than artisan, a system like you describe--trained full-time advisors to advise students on general ed requirements, and subject experts in each department to deal with majors--would probably work as well as anything.  One would hope that the full-time advisors would be well-trained and conscientious in their work, and ready to listen when faculty members catch them giving bad advice because they don't know any better.

Quote from: kaysixteen on February 16, 2024, 11:07:05 PMIn what universe is it acceptable to require college kids, many of whom (esp at this sort of place) to be 'advised' by people who, ahem, well, errr... have no business being advisors themselves?  

As others have pointed out, most of what advisors do is just bookkeeping; checking to see that students have checked the required boxes for their program. It doesn't take subject-area knowledge.

QuoteAnd how hard would it be to have, say, at the beginning of any given semester, each prof in an upper-level major class to run through all the students (or, if too large, to have the profs split up the students across all the classes), look quickly at their transcripts, and say, esp to seniors, 'lookee here, you need, right now, to sign up for course x, or you will not be able to graduate this semester)?

That is a perfect example of why it doesn't require faculty; it just requires someone who can follow instructions ("2 courses from Category A; 3 courses from Category B", etc.).

The one place faculty are required is for transfer students. In the past I've been called in to determine whether a student from OtherU with a course "Fabric Containers 221" meets the requirement at MarshU for "Cloth Baskets 321". But that doesn't involve meeting with students, and it's usually done when they transfer, and a note is put in their transcript so in future anyone can clearly tell that they have the credit.

Also, many (most?) programs tend to have clearly laid-out sample schedules suggesting what courses students are expected to take each semester in order to graduate in the normal time. Students who follow this won't need extra advice, and students who transfer in, fail courses, or otherwise deviate from the schedule should be talking to an advisor at the time they make the deviation to chart their new path.Once they've done that, as long as they stick to it, they don't need any more advising. If they deviate from that path, the process repeats.

It is condescending, as well as a huge waste of time and resources, to have people proactively looking over students' shoulders to herd them to success in spite of themselves.