Looking to the social scientists and historians in the room to interpret the apparent sudden change of heart among the Proud Boys (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/20/technology/proud-boys-trump.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage) and QAnon. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/01/20/qanon-trump-era-ends/)
Some are feeling duped that Trump would suddenly bail on them. He told them to fight, and now he is hiding at his posh Florida Country Club while they get fired and/or imprisoned on federal charges for fighting for him.
For those of you with more perspective, is this... real? Widespread? Or a bit of "dog bites man?"
Trump's only concerns are himself, and maybe his family members (although I'm betting Melania divorces him in a year).
I'm sorry the poor dears at QA and Proud Babies were duped, but maybe they'll learn something?
Ever since my eyes were opened about the Republican party (interthreaduality) I've been saddened that a group of people with some serious acumen in some areas (some very good speech-makers, historians, and speakers among the more traditional Repubs, for example) can be so duplicitous.
All for them and none for all, it seems to me, is the realpolitik there.
M.
I'm in psychology but this is pretty far outside my area. But for what it's worth--
I think you need to separate QAnon from the far right groups like the Proud Boys.
QAnon is probably best thought of as a millennial cult. Trump was their savior/king, and played a big roll in their entire world view, and there were specific prophesies about what would happen which did not come true. What do members of a millennial cult do when their prophesies don't happen on schedule? Well, some do become disillusioned and conclude they were duped, but others just find it too difficult to let go of their beliefs and world view, and just find a way to explain away the discrepancy -- e.g., maybe they interpreted the prophecy incorrectly before, and it will happen later, or in a different way, or something has changed but this is all still part of the "plan". Articles from journalists monitoring QAnon message boards suggest both those things are happening.
The far right groups on the other hand long predate Trump. They thought he was on their side or at least a fellow traveler, but in the end he was a coward and/or just using them and so they are done with him. Many are apparently saying they are done with the Republican party and conventional politics in general and are aligning themselves with separatist/secessionist militia groups. This is scary stuff, but if they stop voting and the FBI keeps close tabs on them it may be better than having them take over the GOP.
I think they are both simply signaling that they are ready for a new savior. But I really doubt any current Republican prospect for the White House will claim them.
Quote from: Puget on January 21, 2021, 10:02:09 AM
I'm in psychology but this is pretty far outside my area. But for what it's worth--
I think you need to separate QAnon from the far right groups like the Proud Boys.
QAnon is probably best thought of as a millennial cult. Trump was their savior/king, and played a big roll in their entire world view, and there were specific prophesies about what would happen which did not come true. What do members of a millennial cult do when their prophesies don't happen on schedule? Well, some do become disillusioned and conclude they were duped, but others just find it too difficult to let go of their beliefs and world view, and just find a way to explain away the discrepancy -- e.g., maybe they interpreted the prophecy incorrectly before, and it will happen later, or in a different way, or something has changed but this is all still part of the "plan". Articles from journalists monitoring QAnon message boards suggest both those things are happening.
The far right groups on the other hand long predate Trump. They thought he was on their side or at least a fellow traveler, but in the end he was a coward and/or just using them and so they are done with him. Many are apparently saying they are done with the Republican party and conventional politics in general and are aligning themselves with separatist/secessionist militia groups. This is scary stuff, but if they stop voting and the FBI keeps close tabs on them it may be better than having them take over the GOP.
From the millennial cult standpoint, the white evangelicals who supported Trump have much more overlap with QAnon than they do with the neo-Nazi crowd.
Quote from: spork on January 21, 2021, 10:48:28 AM
Quote from: Puget on January 21, 2021, 10:02:09 AM
I'm in psychology but this is pretty far outside my area. But for what it's worth--
I think you need to separate QAnon from the far right groups like the Proud Boys.
QAnon is probably best thought of as a millennial cult. Trump was their savior/king, and played a big roll in their entire world view, and there were specific prophesies about what would happen which did not come true. What do members of a millennial cult do when their prophesies don't happen on schedule? Well, some do become disillusioned and conclude they were duped, but others just find it too difficult to let go of their beliefs and world view, and just find a way to explain away the discrepancy -- e.g., maybe they interpreted the prophecy incorrectly before, and it will happen later, or in a different way, or something has changed but this is all still part of the "plan". Articles from journalists monitoring QAnon message boards suggest both those things are happening.
The far right groups on the other hand long predate Trump. They thought he was on their side or at least a fellow traveler, but in the end he was a coward and/or just using them and so they are done with him. Many are apparently saying they are done with the Republican party and conventional politics in general and are aligning themselves with separatist/secessionist militia groups. This is scary stuff, but if they stop voting and the FBI keeps close tabs on them it may be better than having them take over the GOP.
From the millennial cult standpoint, the white evangelicals who supported Trump have much more overlap with QAnon than they do with the neo-Nazi crowd.
And that's really disturbing, because it shows that a lot of people who ought to know better are falling for false prophets in a big way.
MOST of Trump's evangelical supporters weren't QAnon believers, it bears repeating. But he falls firmly into the false prophet category himself. I still can't help wondering whether his presidency has to some extent been a dry run for the Antichrist. I hope the widespread disillusion with Trump causes people to think twice before making the same mistake with some other charismatic leader.
Quote from: apl68 on January 21, 2021, 12:12:36 PM
MOST of Trump's evangelical supporters weren't QAnon believers, it bears repeating. But he falls firmly into the false prophet category himself. I still can't help wondering whether his presidency has to some extent been a dry run for the Antichrist. I hope the widespread disillusion with Trump causes people to think twice before making the same mistake with some other charismatic leader.
You may not have seen as much Canadian news as we do, but when Trudeau got elected in 2015 all kinds of media (including in the US) fawned all over him like he was divine.
Trump is in no way unique, and the phenomenon isn't restricted to any particular place on the political spectrum.
Quote from: apl68 on January 21, 2021, 12:12:36 PM
Quote from: spork on January 21, 2021, 10:48:28 AM
Quote from: Puget on January 21, 2021, 10:02:09 AM
I'm in psychology but this is pretty far outside my area. But for what it's worth--
I think you need to separate QAnon from the far right groups like the Proud Boys.
QAnon is probably best thought of as a millennial cult. Trump was their savior/king, and played a big roll in their entire world view, and there were specific prophesies about what would happen which did not come true.
[. . . ]
From the millennial cult standpoint, the white evangelicals who supported Trump have much more overlap with QAnon than they do with the neo-Nazi crowd.
And that's really disturbing, because it shows that a lot of people who ought to know better are falling for false prophets in a big way.
MOST of Trump's evangelical supporters weren't QAnon believers, it bears repeating. But he falls firmly into the false prophet category himself.
Trump's evangelical supporters quite willingly ignored the "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" rule.
Quote
I still can't help wondering whether his presidency has to some extent been a dry run for the Antichrist.
People like Mike Pompeo seemed to have thought the Day of Judgment was near.
Quote
I hope the widespread disillusion with Trump causes people to think twice before making the same mistake with some other charismatic leader.
Doubtful. White evangelical Trump supporters probably think they came *so close* to holding state power that they will eagerly pray to false idols in the future.
It's true, he certainly is a coward, and his bone spurs were probably acting up on him again on January 6. But he's also not a white supremacist, so anyone who wanted that type of leader will eventually be disappointed. I suspect he was surprised that the insurrection went as far as it did, although this doesn't mean he shouldn't be blamed for inciting them. He should. I picture more that Trump envisioned them making a lot of noise and everyone finally saying, OK, let's have another look at what's going on and see if the election was straight up and honest.
QuoteBut he's also not a white supremacist....
Do you meant Trump?
Flamethrower.
-=-=-=-
In other (real) news, C. Lindholm's work on Charisma in leadership is instructive:
https://www.bu.edu/anthrop/files/2011/09/charisma.pdf
M.
Quote from: mamselle on January 21, 2021, 01:48:49 PM
QuoteBut he's also not a white supremacist....
Do you meant Trump?
Flamethrower.
-=-=-=-
In other (real) news, C. Lindholm's work on Charisma in leadership is instructive:
https://www.bu.edu/anthrop/files/2011/09/charisma.pdf
M.
You actually think he's a Hitler or Idi Amin type don't you?
I know plenty of racists that are not dictators.
Central Park Five, housing discrimination in NYC, birther conspiracy promotion, calling Mexicans rapists, calling non-Norways "shithole countries" . . .
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck.
Quote from: apl68 on January 21, 2021, 12:12:36 PM
I still can't help wondering whether his presidency has to some extent been a dry run for the Antichrist.
I enjoy listening to Christian talk radio when I'm in the US. (Not for kind reasons, but I digress.) Back in
early 2015, I was driving in the South and listening to a sermon about Revelations and the end times. The person giving the sermon had just one lesson he wanted to impart: the end times will be heralded by the sounding of two trumps. The Bible, he said, mentions loads of trumpets. But it only mentions two trumps, both in Revelations. Revelations tells us that the first trump warns us of the impending beginning of the end. So when we hear it, we have to get ready. But the second trump, now, that's the one that announces that the end has begun.
FWIW, he definitely wasn't talking about candidate Trump (I'm pretty sure the sermon was recorded years before).
Make of that what you will.
Oh, no, NOT Ivanka in 2024!
Please, no!
Someone send out Eliphaz the Temenite to dissuade her, please.
Now.
M.
Hell, Ivanka, it worked for Isabel Peron, at least briefly. Then there's Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, another Peronist. These are wives of. No reason a daughter of can't have a chance.
Peron is much closer to Trump than, say, Hitler, or even Mussolini. I presume the Democrats did not accuse Trump of being a Peronist because that might have increased his popularity. :-)
Are we immune to Peronism? Or are we all Peronists?
Over on Parler they were calling Trump GEOTUS, "God Emperor of the United States." When someone told me this, I thought the term must be being used ironically or something. But my friend, who keeps tabs on these things as part of her job, showed me enough postings to persuade me that at least some of them meant GEOTUS sincerely. I don't understand this practice of raising any human to the level of infallible prophet/savior, but above all it baffles me that Trump should appear to be the one. It's not like his lapsed promises and obfuscations and evasions are subtle or hidden. I wish people would stop proving themselves even more gullible than I suspected.
Quote from: Hegemony on January 22, 2021, 02:38:55 AM
Over on Parler they were calling Trump GEOTUS, "God Emperor of the United States." When someone told me this, I thought the term must be being used ironically or something. But my friend, who keeps tabs on these things as part of her job, showed me enough postings to persuade me that at least some of them meant GEOTUS sincerely. I don't understand this practice of raising any human to the level of infallible prophet/savior, but above all it baffles me that Trump should appear to be the one. It's not like his lapsed promises and obfuscations and evasions are subtle or hidden. I wish people would stop proving themselves even more gullible than I suspected.
My impression is that the one thing that set Trump apart was that people felt he spoke
plainly*, which is extremely rare for anyone in politics. Politicians generally are obsessed with speaking a lot and saying as little as possible, especially on any topic remotely controversial.
*And yes, he lied, made stuff up, and changed his mind frequently, but at least
when he said something it seemed to be clear. So to voters who feel they're walking on eggshells (or are supposed to be) a leader who stomps around in hobnail boots is a refreshing change, even if he crushes the flowerbeds.
Quote from: dismalist on January 21, 2021, 03:38:32 PM
Hell, Ivanka, it worked for Isabel Peron, at least briefly. Then there's Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, another Peronist. These are wives of. No reason a daughter of can't have a chance.
Peron is much closer to Trump than, say, Hitler, or even Mussolini. I presume the Democrats did not accuse Trump of being a Peronist because that might have increased his popularity. :-)
Are we immune to Peronism? Or are we all Peronists?
I also don't know that enough people would have caught the reference.
Ah, there's Eliphaz.
I was postulating her as the second "Trump" in the fable.
She has indeed been bruited about for 2024...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/ivanka-trump-tweet-speculation-president-b1780592.html
M.
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 22, 2021, 04:18:03 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on January 22, 2021, 02:38:55 AM
Over on Parler they were calling Trump GEOTUS, "God Emperor of the United States." When someone told me this, I thought the term must be being used ironically or something. But my friend, who keeps tabs on these things as part of her job, showed me enough postings to persuade me that at least some of them meant GEOTUS sincerely. I don't understand this practice of raising any human to the level of infallible prophet/savior, but above all it baffles me that Trump should appear to be the one. It's not like his lapsed promises and obfuscations and evasions are subtle or hidden. I wish people would stop proving themselves even more gullible than I suspected.
My impression is that the one thing that set Trump apart was that people felt he spoke plainly*, which is extremely rare for anyone in politics. Politicians generally are obsessed with speaking a lot and saying as little as possible, especially on any topic remotely controversial.
*And yes, he lied, made stuff up, and changed his mind frequently, but at least when he said something it seemed to be clear. So to voters who feel they're walking on eggshells (or are supposed to be) a leader who stomps around in hobnail boots is a refreshing change, even if he crushes the flowerbeds.
He's the first American politician I recall who tells lies that everyone, including those with no education, can see are lies. Like your ten year old kid might do, and then you say 'no, son, we don't do that.' The only disagreement was either he's gaslighting (clever and diabolical) or deluded (helpless to face unpleasant facts.) Third possibility: he tells you his inauguration crowd was the largest ever as part of a sales man strategy. You know it's not true, but it won't do you any good to disagree with him, because he'll just repeat it more often, and by putting the idea out there he appears to be keeping the upper hand by sheer force.
There were times he said what he meant plainly, and stuck to it, and it wasn't something egotistical or nutty (America needs to get out of the Iran pact). That part is true. Things like that might remind one of Ronald Reagan, who mostly said the same things over and over again and acted similar to how he spoke. (Tax cut) And something like that would appeal to conservatives who don't like him as a man, but hate just about everything the democrats want to do. Of course they have to either STFU in mixed company or be thick skinned enough to not mind being called racists.
Quote from: spork on January 21, 2021, 01:14:45 PM
Quote
I hope the widespread disillusion with Trump causes people to think twice before making the same mistake with some other charismatic leader.
Doubtful. White evangelical Trump supporters probably think they came *so close* to holding state power that they will eagerly pray to false idols in the future.
I'm afraid in many cases you're right. They by and large didn't vote for Trump because they had any admiration for him (Based on what I've seen up close, his noisy admirers who get all the attention have always been in the minority). They did so out of stark fear of what would happen if somebody besides the Republican candidate won the presidency. They're still afraid. Frankly they've got good reason to be afraid. We all do the way the world is going. But they also profess to have a hope that doesn't have anything to do with who wins the presidential election. Yet somehow they've become convinced that that's where their hope lies. What distresses me is not simply that this or that political leader is a false god. The political process itself has become an idol.
apl is right about this fear, and I know many evangelicals personally who have it-- one normally pretty even-keeled woman just today told me she expected 'horrible' things from a Biden admin. I challenged her specifically to tell me what those horrible things are, and, more specifically, on what evidence she adduces that these things are horrible and/or Biden seeks to impose 'em. We will see what she says. But this reaction from many of my coreligionists is based largely on some combo of 1) irrational fear stoked by 40 years of propaganda about Democrats 2) tribal identity politics 3) doubling-down on support from Trump, lest you have to fess up to having been snookered (this is esp true wrt potentially acknowledging that GOP rhetoric about abortion is bogus, as the actual evidence on the ground should make clear).
I do not know what to do about these things, and, quite frankly, I am tiring of the fight, and tiring of the now mutated label of 'evangelical', too, though not yet ready to jettison it...
Quote from: mahagonny on January 22, 2021, 07:02:09 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 22, 2021, 04:18:03 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on January 22, 2021, 02:38:55 AM
Over on Parler they were calling Trump GEOTUS, "God Emperor of the United States." When someone told me this, I thought the term must be being used ironically or something. But my friend, who keeps tabs on these things as part of her job, showed me enough postings to persuade me that at least some of them meant GEOTUS sincerely. I don't understand this practice of raising any human to the level of infallible prophet/savior, but above all it baffles me that Trump should appear to be the one. It's not like his lapsed promises and obfuscations and evasions are subtle or hidden. I wish people would stop proving themselves even more gullible than I suspected.
My impression is that the one thing that set Trump apart was that people felt he spoke plainly*, which is extremely rare for anyone in politics. Politicians generally are obsessed with speaking a lot and saying as little as possible, especially on any topic remotely controversial.
*And yes, he lied, made stuff up, and changed his mind frequently, but at least when he said something it seemed to be clear. So to voters who feel they're walking on eggshells (or are supposed to be) a leader who stomps around in hobnail boots is a refreshing change, even if he crushes the flowerbeds.
He's the first American politician I recall who tells lies that everyone, including those with no education, can see are lies. Like your ten year old kid might do, and then you say 'no, son, we don't do that.' The only disagreement was either he's gaslighting (clever and diabolical) or deluded (helpless to face unpleasant facts.) Third possibility: he tells you his inauguration crowd was the largest ever as part of a sales man strategy. You know it's not true, but it won't do you any good to disagree with him, because he'll just repeat it more often, and by putting the idea out there he appears to be keeping the upper hand by sheer force.
There were times he said what he meant plainly, and stuck to it, and it wasn't something egotistical or nutty (America needs to get out of the Iran pact). That part is true. Things like that might remind one of Ronald Reagan, who mostly said the same things over and over again and acted similar to how he spoke. (Tax cut) And something like that would appeal to conservatives who don't like him as a man, but hate just about everything the democrats want to do. Of course they have to either STFU in mixed company or be thick skinned enough to not mind being called racists.
The irony is that I have heard from some of his supporters that he is the most/only honest politician. So, despite the blatant and constant lies, many still believe him because of how he speaks. It is quite weird.
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 23, 2021, 04:45:02 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on January 22, 2021, 07:02:09 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 22, 2021, 04:18:03 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on January 22, 2021, 02:38:55 AM
Over on Parler they were calling Trump GEOTUS, "God Emperor of the United States." When someone told me this, I thought the term must be being used ironically or something. But my friend, who keeps tabs on these things as part of her job, showed me enough postings to persuade me that at least some of them meant GEOTUS sincerely. I don't understand this practice of raising any human to the level of infallible prophet/savior, but above all it baffles me that Trump should appear to be the one. It's not like his lapsed promises and obfuscations and evasions are subtle or hidden. I wish people would stop proving themselves even more gullible than I suspected.
My impression is that the one thing that set Trump apart was that people felt he spoke plainly*, which is extremely rare for anyone in politics. Politicians generally are obsessed with speaking a lot and saying as little as possible, especially on any topic remotely controversial.
*And yes, he lied, made stuff up, and changed his mind frequently, but at least when he said something it seemed to be clear. So to voters who feel they're walking on eggshells (or are supposed to be) a leader who stomps around in hobnail boots is a refreshing change, even if he crushes the flowerbeds.
He's the first American politician I recall who tells lies that everyone, including those with no education, can see are lies. Like your ten year old kid might do, and then you say 'no, son, we don't do that.' The only disagreement was either he's gaslighting (clever and diabolical) or deluded (helpless to face unpleasant facts.) Third possibility: he tells you his inauguration crowd was the largest ever as part of a sales man strategy. You know it's not true, but it won't do you any good to disagree with him, because he'll just repeat it more often, and by putting the idea out there he appears to be keeping the upper hand by sheer force.
There were times he said what he meant plainly, and stuck to it, and it wasn't something egotistical or nutty (America needs to get out of the Iran pact). That part is true. Things like that might remind one of Ronald Reagan, who mostly said the same things over and over again and acted similar to how he spoke. (Tax cut) And something like that would appeal to conservatives who don't like him as a man, but hate just about everything the democrats want to do. Of course they have to either STFU in mixed company or be thick skinned enough to not mind being called racists.
The irony is that I have heard from some of his supporters that he is the most/only honest politician. So, despite the blatant and constant lies, many still believe him because of how he speaks. It is quite weird.
I think in part it's a confusion of frankness and lack of tact with "honesty." A lot of times when people speak of being "honest" or "brutally honest" or "keeping it real" they're referring to a simple refusal to exercise any kind of verbal self restraint. Unfortunately that has become very popular in today's society.
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 23, 2021, 01:30:26 AM
apl is right about this fear, and I know many evangelicals personally who have it-- one normally pretty even-keeled woman just today told me she expected 'horrible' things from a Biden admin. I challenged her specifically to tell me what those horrible things are, and, more specifically, on what evidence she adduces that these things are horrible and/or Biden seeks to impose 'em. We will see what she says. But this reaction from many of my coreligionists is based largely on some combo of 1) irrational fear stoked by 40 years of propaganda about Democrats 2) tribal identity politics 3) doubling-down on support from Trump, lest you have to fess up to having been snookered (this is esp true wrt potentially acknowledging that GOP rhetoric about abortion is bogus, as the actual evidence on the ground should make clear).
I do not know what to do about these things, and, quite frankly, I am tiring of the fight, and tiring of the now mutated label of 'evangelical', too, though not yet ready to jettison it...
While they're often exaggerated, I don't think that the fears are always as irrational or illegitimate as all that. Looking to a godless politician for help, instead of to God, is.
Quote from: apl68 on January 23, 2021, 06:18:11 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 23, 2021, 04:45:02 AM
The irony is that I have heard from some of his supporters that he is the most/only honest politician. So, despite the blatant and constant lies, many still believe him because of how he speaks. It is quite weird.
I think in part it's a confusion of frankness and lack of tact with "honesty." A lot of times when people speak of being "honest" or "brutally honest" or "keeping it real" they're referring to a simple refusal to exercise any kind of verbal self restraint. Unfortunately that has become very popular in today's society.
I think it's a direct response to political correctness where people feel they're constantly walikng on eggshells. That tactlessness and honesty is a breath of fresh air in that it is
uncensored.
Quote from: apl68 on January 23, 2021, 06:20:54 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 23, 2021, 01:30:26 AM
But this reaction from many of my coreligionists is based largely on some combo of 1) irrational fear stoked by 40 years of propaganda about Democrats 2) tribal identity politics 3) doubling-down on support from Trump, lest you have to fess up to having been snookered (this is esp true wrt potentially acknowledging that GOP rhetoric about abortion is bogus, as the actual evidence on the ground should make clear).
I do not know what to do about these things, and, quite frankly, I am tiring of the fight, and tiring of the now mutated label of 'evangelical', too, though not yet ready to jettison it...
While they're often exaggerated, I don't think that the fears are always as irrational or illegitimate as all that. Looking to a godless politician for help, instead of to God, is.
Their fears about identity politics are
completely rational.
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 23, 2021, 07:33:31 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 23, 2021, 06:18:11 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 23, 2021, 04:45:02 AM
The irony is that I have heard from some of his supporters that he is the most/only honest politician. So, despite the blatant and constant lies, many still believe him because of how he speaks. It is quite weird.
I think in part it's a confusion of frankness and lack of tact with "honesty." A lot of times when people speak of being "honest" or "brutally honest" or "keeping it real" they're referring to a simple refusal to exercise any kind of verbal self restraint. Unfortunately that has become very popular in today's society.
I think it's a direct response to political correctness where people feel they're constantly walikng on eggshells. That tactlessness and honesty is a breath of fresh air in that it is uncensored.
Quote from: apl68 on January 23, 2021, 06:20:54 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 23, 2021, 01:30:26 AM
But this reaction from many of my coreligionists is based largely on some combo of 1) irrational fear stoked by 40 years of propaganda about Democrats 2) tribal identity politics 3) doubling-down on support from Trump, lest you have to fess up to having been snookered (this is esp true wrt potentially acknowledging that GOP rhetoric about abortion is bogus, as the actual evidence on the ground should make clear).
I do not know what to do about these things, and, quite frankly, I am tiring of the fight, and tiring of the now mutated label of 'evangelical', too, though not yet ready to jettison it...
While they're often exaggerated, I don't think that the fears are always as irrational or illegitimate as all that. Looking to a godless politician for help, instead of to God, is.
Their fears about identity politics are completely rational.
Tactlessness with honesty is not what he is. He is tactless and dishonest, that is why is is odd that people would say he is the most honest politician. I guess he is honest about some of his opinions that other politicians would never state even if they agree, and that is what they must be referring to, but it is hard to claim he is an honest man.
apl, K16: there absolutely is widespread fear and I don't know about evangelicals in particular but the cancel culture frightens a lot of Americans, and for good reason. And Trump opposed its encroaching into government regulations, required 'sensitivity training' (look to your left and right for the 'microagressors' so we can shame them and drive them from the workplace) and expressed a thoughtful, 100% valid reason why, and everyone knew he meant it. And now that he's gone, there is indeed reason to worry. Actually pretty much on the same page as Pres. Obama on this, while much more serious.
'In a Fourth of July speech at Mount Rushmore, Trump said, "We want free and open debate, not speech codes and cancel culture. We embrace tolerance, not prejudice." Speaking of the left, he added that "one of their political weapons is 'cancel culture' — driving people from their jobs, shaming dissenters, and demanding total submission from anyone who disagrees. This is the very definition of totalitarianism, and it is completely alien to our culture and our values, and it has absolutely no place in the United States of America."'
source: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/22/americans-cancel-culture-377412
And I'm not flipping my position on his bizarre habit of telling obvious lies. That's still part of the enigma, but only one piece.
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 23, 2021, 08:37:21 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 23, 2021, 07:33:31 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 23, 2021, 06:18:11 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 23, 2021, 04:45:02 AM
The irony is that I have heard from some of his supporters that he is the most/only honest politician. So, despite the blatant and constant lies, many still believe him because of how he speaks. It is quite weird.
I think in part it's a confusion of frankness and lack of tact with "honesty." A lot of times when people speak of being "honest" or "brutally honest" or "keeping it real" they're referring to a simple refusal to exercise any kind of verbal self restraint. Unfortunately that has become very popular in today's society.
I think it's a direct response to political correctness where people feel they're constantly walikng on eggshells. That tactlessness and honesty is a breath of fresh air in that it is uncensored.
Tactlessness with honesty is not what he is. He is tactless and dishonest, that is why is is odd that people would say he is the most honest politician. I guess he is honest about some of his opinions that other politicians would never state even if they agree, and that is what they must be referring to, but it is hard to claim he is an honest man.
I think that's a valid point. The fascinating thing about all of the times when he said things which were glaringly, obviously not true, it seemed that people didn't care, and my sense was that the
factual incorrectness was ignored because of the unfiltered
emotions. People seemed to feel his motivations were more clear than what is common with politicians, who generally try to appear in sympathy with whoever they're speaking to
at the moment, to the point that it all comes off as an act. (Which may be why wartime can make politicians more popular, since they can express real emotion and in a consistent direction.)
Yes, but I think he also used a lot of this to distract from other areas where he was completely deceitful. For example, he acted as if he cares about the little people and that was his motivation for the tax cuts, but I think it is pretty clear who the biggest winners from that were.
I found it interesting how he made so many people think he was one of them because of how he spoke when he was born with a silver spoon and has never faced anybody the same issues. Ironic of him railing against the "elites".
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 23, 2021, 10:45:35 AM
Yes, but I think he also used a lot of this to distract from other areas where he was completely deceitful. For example, he acted as if he cares about the little people and that was his motivation for the tax cuts, but I think it is pretty clear who the biggest winners from that were.
I found it interesting how he made so many people think he was one of them because of how he spoke when he was born with a silver spoon and has never faced anybody the same issues. Ironic of him railing against the "elites".
Not to me it wasn't. 'White privilege' does not have to mean you're Donald Trump born to a tycoon businessman father. It means you have white skin and are somehow harming others thereby. And only idiots don't see the idiocy of that. And it comes to us from the elite left who see themselves as eminently educated and aware. Yet when it comes to who is friend to the working man, the jury is still out.
It's only as ironic for him to present himself as a regular guy as it was for Hilary to mimic the black cadence when speaking in certain situations, or for Obama to suddenly slip into urban-speak at opportune moments (like when he was in a restaurant for a photo op and said to the black guy behind the counter "nah, man, we straight" when being offered his change.)
They're politicians. They all do it.
As for turning on him, I don't know about that; I do think it's time for him to enjoy retirement and recede into our memories as a past president. I say that as someone who voted for him.
Quote from: mahagonny on January 23, 2021, 11:13:50 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 23, 2021, 10:45:35 AM
Yes, but I think he also used a lot of this to distract from other areas where he was completely deceitful. For example, he acted as if he cares about the little people and that was his motivation for the tax cuts, but I think it is pretty clear who the biggest winners from that were.
I found it interesting how he made so many people think he was one of them because of how he spoke when he was born with a silver spoon and has never faced anybody the same issues. Ironic of him railing against the "elites".
Not to me it wasn't. 'White privilege' does not have to mean you're Donald Trump born to a tycoon businessman father. It means you have white skin and are somehow harming others thereby. And only idiots don't see the idiocy of that. And it comes to us from the elite left who see themselves as eminently educated and aware. Yet when it comes to who is friend to the working man, the jury is still out.
I didn't say anything about white privilege, I just said that he is the definition of elite. For people to see him as one of the boys, and think he has their best interest in mind is funny.
Just like him railing against illegal immigrants while he simultaneously hires many of them. Or him being tough on crime...
Quote from: Descartes on January 23, 2021, 11:33:01 AM
It's only as ironic for him to present himself as a regular guy as it was for Hilary to mimic the black cadence when speaking in certain situations, or for Obama to suddenly slip into urban-speak at opportune moments (like when he was in a restaurant for a photo op and said to the black guy behind the counter "nah, man, we straight" when being offered his change.)
They're politicians. They all do it.
As for turning on him, I don't know about that; I do think it's time for him to enjoy retirement and recede into our memories as a past president. I say that as someone who voted for him.
I never saw Hilary do that, but that's not to say she didn't. Regarding Obama, I don't really see an issue. I'm sure Bush would use southern slang while visiting a Texas BBQ for a photo op.
These examples are a little different than Trump railing against the "elite". You may not see a difference, but that is your choice
Quote from: Descartes on January 23, 2021, 11:33:01 AM
It's only as ironic for him to present himself as a regular guy as it was for Hilary to mimic the black cadence when speaking in certain situations, or for Obama to suddenly slip into urban-speak at opportune moments (like when he was in a restaurant for a photo op and said to the black guy behind the counter "nah, man, we straight" when being offered his change.)
They're politicians. They all do it.
As for turning on him, I don't know about that; I do think it's time for him to enjoy retirement and recede into our memories as a past president. I say that as someone who voted for him.
It is also called "code switching." My speech patterns have been influenced over my life by having lived for extended periods in New Jersey, Los Angeles, and the South. So when talking to people from my life who retain those speech patterns I naturally slide into them. I'm not trying to be ironic. It's just that those patterns still live deep in my lizard brain and I pick them up when naturally "mirroring" other speakers.
Most politicians speak like attorneys. The most deft ones could tell you to go to hell so nicely you'd look forward to the trip. Trump had none of that burden so he seemed real. The gift for him was it was easy to do and it won votes. The downside was eventually people had had enough of the rudeness. So now we have a pair of lawyers again.
The woman who told me she expected horrible things from the Biden admin, when pressed, would only say that she was concerned that he would 'try to compel good behavior' while calling good evil and evil good. I have asked her for follow-up, but it has occurred to me that she has not thought things through well, despite not being a cable tv viewer or rightie radio listener, and being pretty even-keeled on social media to the extent that she even spends any time thereon. The tribal id politics I mentioned is not a good thing, not when one surrenders one's own identity and especially one's thinking for oneself, to those groupthink opinions, which is pretty standard, and one refuses to consider news and info sources outside of one's bubble. But in my own church today, prayers were offered to the effect that God should grant us the ability to persevere through the (essentially certain to be coming) wave of anti-evangelical persecution. Like I said yesterday, I am tiring of this 'evangelical' self-identification. And I am coming to resent deeply the anti-intellectualism and associated contempt for people like me.
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 23, 2021, 12:31:32 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on January 23, 2021, 11:13:50 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 23, 2021, 10:45:35 AM
Yes, but I think he also used a lot of this to distract from other areas where he was completely deceitful. For example, he acted as if he cares about the little people and that was his motivation for the tax cuts, but I think it is pretty clear who the biggest winners from that were.
I found it interesting how he made so many people think he was one of them because of how he spoke when he was born with a silver spoon and has never faced anybody the same issues. Ironic of him railing against the "elites".
Not to me it wasn't. 'White privilege' does not have to mean you're Donald Trump born to a tycoon businessman father. It means you have white skin and are somehow harming others thereby. And only idiots don't see the idiocy of that. And it comes to us from the elite left who see themselves as eminently educated and aware. Yet when it comes to who is friend to the working man, the jury is still out.
I didn't say anything about white privilege, I just said that he is the definition of elite. For people to see him as one of the boys, and think he has their best interest in mind is funny.
Just like him railing against illegal immigrants while he simultaneously hires many of them. Or him being tough on crime...
I'm sure he has been hypocritical in his practices but he has often been consistent in his policy aims and I think people have counted on him for that and not without reason. Whereas a guy like Biden may be so compromise friendly that one wonders whether has much of anything in mind in the long term.
Years ago Biden was coming out strongly for criminalizing hiring illegal immigrants. Yet he's pretty wimpy on border control. Go figure.
I think a guy who has run huge businesses, like Trump, has at least an equal chance at empathizing with those who run small businesses, if not a better chance than the career politician has, especially the democratic ones.
Quote from: mahagonny on January 24, 2021, 10:40:59 PM
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 23, 2021, 12:31:32 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on January 23, 2021, 11:13:50 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 23, 2021, 10:45:35 AM
Yes, but I think he also used a lot of this to distract from other areas where he was completely deceitful. For example, he acted as if he cares about the little people and that was his motivation for the tax cuts, but I think it is pretty clear who the biggest winners from that were.
I found it interesting how he made so many people think he was one of them because of how he spoke when he was born with a silver spoon and has never faced anybody the same issues. Ironic of him railing against the "elites".
Not to me it wasn't. 'White privilege' does not have to mean you're Donald Trump born to a tycoon businessman father. It means you have white skin and are somehow harming others thereby. And only idiots don't see the idiocy of that. And it comes to us from the elite left who see themselves as eminently educated and aware. Yet when it comes to who is friend to the working man, the jury is still out.
I didn't say anything about white privilege, I just said that he is the definition of elite. For people to see him as one of the boys, and think he has their best interest in mind is funny.
Just like him railing against illegal immigrants while he simultaneously hires many of them. Or him being tough on crime...
I'm sure he has been hypocritical in his practices but he has often been consistent in his policy aims and I think people have counted on him for that and not without reason. Whereas a guy like Biden may be so compromise friendly that one wonders whether has much of anything in mind in the long term.
Years ago Biden was coming out strongly for criminalizing hiring illegal immigrants. Yet he's pretty wimpy on border control. Go figure.
I think a guy who has run huge businesses, like Trump, has at least an equal chance at empathizing with those who run small businesses, if not a better chance than the career politician has, especially the democratic ones.
Yes, Biden has had a long career and has changed his stance on many things, but if you look over the same period with trump you will see some similar things. For example, he was historically in favour of gun control, but that was not politically expedient so he flipped his stance. He is obviously not a religious man, yet he was signing Bible's and pretending.
To think Trump is somehow different and more consistent because he doesn't disguise his A-holeness is just willful blindness. I really don't think Trump cares too much about a lot of the things he was pushing forward, but they were politically helpful and helped him push the things he does care about through (ie tax breaks, deregulation, etc).
The prophesies of QAnon that didn't come true, will be explained away like a rapture that didn't happen. "The Storm" will become a metaphor or a living symbol whose meaning will be generalized into a non-specific event that will happen at a non-specific time in the future. Like the multiple raptures that have been predicted but never happened, "The Storm" will still be floated in social media lore and ambiguous prophesy.
As for the continued appeal of Trump to the other segments of the far-right, like the self-styled armed militias, etc., I don't know what to think.
His appeal was largely due to a large segment of the population whose needs and views were finally being represented and validated after decades of having to keep their true selves in the closet. Every time he opened his ignoramus mouth, his ignoramus followers felt validated and celebrated and appreciated and in charge. His many ignoramus followers saw themselves in him, especially with the brusque & dumb rhetoric. It's for this reason that I think Trump will continue to be appealing to them in some respects.
OTOH, the king ignoramus holding the office of the presidency was their ultimate validation. When he won in 2016, his followers, many of whom were probably losers most of their life, also felt like real winners for the first time, and they reveled in it. With Trump's loss of the election and without the office of the presidency, Trump's far-right ignoramuses have lost their winner identity. I don't think they will turn on Trump, but they will probably drop him as a social identifier, in much the same way that bandwagon sports fans are no longer fans of a sports team, when their adopted championship team cycles to a losing season(s).
Trump will probably become a symbol, much like the Confederate flag. The Civil War lasted four years, just like the Trump presidency. Just because the South lost doesn't mean they will tuck their tail and walk away head down. Trump's loss of the presidency will become just like the South's loss of the Civil War. Yeah, they lost. Yeah, they felt like humiliated losers. But the fight itself (like the Jan. 6 terrorist attack at the Capitol) will become a symbol of rebellion in their hearts, that will unify a beaten people and leave the door open for another Trump-like figure in the future.
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 24, 2021, 09:50:19 PM
The woman who told me she expected horrible things from the Biden admin, when pressed, would only say that she was concerned that he would 'try to compel good behavior' while calling good evil and evil good. I have asked her for follow-up, but it has occurred to me that she has not thought things through well, despite not being a cable tv viewer or rightie radio listener, and being pretty even-keeled on social media to the extent that she even spends any time thereon. The tribal id politics I mentioned is not a good thing, not when one surrenders one's own identity and especially one's thinking for oneself, to those groupthink opinions, which is pretty standard, and one refuses to consider news and info sources outside of one's bubble. But in my own church today, prayers were offered to the effect that God should grant us the ability to persevere through the (essentially certain to be coming) wave of anti-evangelical persecution. Like I said yesterday, I am tiring of this 'evangelical' self-identification. And I am coming to resent deeply the anti-intellectualism and associated contempt for people like me.
The idea that a Christian could only vote for Trump because Biden will obviously send hordes of LGBTQ+ abortion doctors who are in the country illegally to come take away our guns and then close our churches was/is very strong in my region (mid-South). The "persecuted Christian" identity that was happening before Trump came to power hasn't helped matters.
Now the idea that COVID vaccine has "aborted babies" in it is making the rounds. Uggers. At least we have moved past the microchip-in-the-vaccine scare---I hope.
Interesting times.
My friend won't seriously get at her views wrt Biden and Trump, and I am not sure it is worth pursuing with her. That said, something that is clear is that she and I do not share the same fact basis. This is true even though she is not a cable/ talk radio/ righty web user. How does one deal with this?
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 25, 2021, 06:46:01 PM
My friend won't seriously get at her views wrt Biden and Trump, and I am not sure it is worth pursuing with her. That said, something that is clear is that she and I do not share the same fact basis. This is true even though she is not a cable/ talk radio/ righty web user. How does one deal with this?
Talk about other things?
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/27/post-trump-gop-462864?cid=apn
Seems like GOP plan after losing the House, Senate, and Presidency is to double down on a man who is deeply unpopular beyond the Republican base.
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 25, 2021, 06:46:01 PM
My friend won't seriously get at her views wrt Biden and Trump, and I am not sure it is worth pursuing with her. That said, something that is clear is that she and I do not share the same fact basis. This is true even though she is not a cable/ talk radio/ righty web user. How does one deal with this?
Something I have had to learn, and am still working on, is the understanding that it's not our job to fix people. It's our job to be the best light in a dark world that we can be. This means following the instructions that Jesus gave for how to live and act. People see foolish and harmful things happening around them, and get unhappy and worrisome news, and they react by getting angry and worried and resentful.
Followers of Jesus aren't supposed to live our lives acting angry and worried and resentful. We are to remember that we have a grace that enables us to deal with anger, a hope that inoculates us against worry, and a humility that guards us against resentment and offense. Your churchgoing friend's problem is that she is forgetting these things. You can help to remind her by practicing them in your own life.
We have a staff member right now who has been spending an awful lot of time by herself (she's trying hard to stay out of COVID's way, and is estranged from much of her family). Evidently she has been listening to some of the wrong kinds of radio and internet preachers. This has been stealing her joy and her victory over the world. It's sad to see her this way, since I know she's better than this. Besides, she risks dragging the rest of us down. I sometimes have these impulses to yell some sense into her. But I hold it in check, because I know that this would only make us both feel worse. Instead I pray for her, listen to her legitimate concerns about work, and try to model a constructive approach around her. That's all I can do for her at this time.
Quote from: apl68 on January 29, 2021, 10:32:01 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 25, 2021, 06:46:01 PM
My friend won't seriously get at her views wrt Biden and Trump, and I am not sure it is worth pursuing with her. That said, something that is clear is that she and I do not share the same fact basis. This is true even though she is not a cable/ talk radio/ righty web user. How does one deal with this?
Something I have had to learn, and am still working on, is the understanding that it's not our job to fix people. It's our job to be the best light in a dark world that we can be. This means following the instructions that Jesus gave for how to live and act. People see foolish and harmful things happening around them, and get unhappy and worrisome news, and they react by getting angry and worried and resentful.
Followers of Jesus aren't supposed to live our lives acting angry and worried and resentful. We are to remember that we have a grace that enables us to deal with anger, a hope that inoculates us against worry, and a humility that guards us against resentment and offense. Your churchgoing friend's problem is that she is forgetting these things. You can help to remind her by practicing them in your own life.
We have a staff member right now who has been spending an awful lot of time by herself (she's trying hard to stay out of COVID's way, and is estranged from much of her family). Evidently she has been listening to some of the wrong kinds of radio and internet preachers. This has been stealing her joy and her victory over the world. It's sad to see her this way, since I know she's better than this. Besides, she risks dragging the rest of us down. I sometimes have these impulses to yell some sense into her. But I hold it in check, because I know that this would only make us both feel worse. Instead I pray for her, listen to her legitimate concerns about work, and try to model a constructive approach around her. That's all I can do for her at this time.
I am not an expert in any of this, but do you think this kind of approach might have merit?
"I've noticed that you seem somewhat down lately. Have you thought about shutting off all the media distractions that have inserted themselves into our lives during the pandemic and going back to something that used to bring you happiness? I remember you used to knit a lot and donate your creations to people in need. Do you still do that? Are any of your friends still knitting?"
Quote from: spork on January 29, 2021, 10:51:04 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 29, 2021, 10:32:01 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 25, 2021, 06:46:01 PM
My friend won't seriously get at her views wrt Biden and Trump, and I am not sure it is worth pursuing with her. That said, something that is clear is that she and I do not share the same fact basis. This is true even though she is not a cable/ talk radio/ righty web user. How does one deal with this?
Something I have had to learn, and am still working on, is the understanding that it's not our job to fix people. It's our job to be the best light in a dark world that we can be. This means following the instructions that Jesus gave for how to live and act. People see foolish and harmful things happening around them, and get unhappy and worrisome news, and they react by getting angry and worried and resentful.
Followers of Jesus aren't supposed to live our lives acting angry and worried and resentful. We are to remember that we have a grace that enables us to deal with anger, a hope that inoculates us against worry, and a humility that guards us against resentment and offense. Your churchgoing friend's problem is that she is forgetting these things. You can help to remind her by practicing them in your own life.
We have a staff member right now who has been spending an awful lot of time by herself (she's trying hard to stay out of COVID's way, and is estranged from much of her family). Evidently she has been listening to some of the wrong kinds of radio and internet preachers. This has been stealing her joy and her victory over the world. It's sad to see her this way, since I know she's better than this. Besides, she risks dragging the rest of us down. I sometimes have these impulses to yell some sense into her. But I hold it in check, because I know that this would only make us both feel worse. Instead I pray for her, listen to her legitimate concerns about work, and try to model a constructive approach around her. That's all I can do for her at this time.
I am not an expert in any of this, but do you think this kind of approach might have merit?
"I've noticed that you seem somewhat down lately. Have you thought about shutting off all the media distractions that have inserted themselves into our lives during the pandemic and going back to something that used to bring you happiness? I remember you used to knit a lot and donate your creations to people in need. Do you still do that? Are any of your friends still knitting?"
Funny you should mention knitting, because the person I'm thinking about did a lot of crocheting--some for charity--until recently. I really should encourage her to get back to that. It would be good for her.
Lucky guess on my part. I have been running, doing yoga classes on Zoom, and ordering books from the public library to elevate my mood. And the courses I teach prevent me from descending too far into any media echo chambers.
I think much of the neo-Nazi domestic terrorism, conspiracy theories, and cult worship of Trump that we're seeing comes from people's tendency to blame other people for their dissatisfaction with their own lives. They gravitate toward anyone who makes messianic claims about the "real enemy." The pandemic has made it easier to ignore the fact that they are still comparatively very high on the global human food chain, if not at the top. If they turn on Trump because he's no longer servicing their psychological needs, they'll find someone else to latch on to.
Ah, ok, they may be 'high on the global food chain', but Trump and Co. accurately reminded them that they themselves are not doing well at all, due largely to a variety of macro-socioeconomic conditions beyond their control. Then Trump utilized this to lead them into, ahem, well.... The fact that there are starving millions in the third world does not help them pay the rent.
My friend is also not doing very well, due largely to the fact that her disabled husband's medical care needs apparently (though I question whether she is perhaps misinformed, in need of a lawyer, etc.) prevent her from working, lest he lose insurance eligibility. But she still will not see that perhaps she has made bad political choices (even though she is not a social media/ right wing political radio/ tv user), based largely on 1) abortion and 2) tribal identity politics and cultural assumptions, aided by a bad church.
Well, here's a guy I can believe in. Senator Tom Rice.
'Here's how Rice explained his vote:
"Once the violence began, when the Capitol was under siege, when the Capitol Police were being beaten and killed, and when the Vice President and the Congress were being locked down, the President was watching and tweeted about the Vice President's lack of courage.
"For hours while the riot continued, the President communicated only on Twitter and offered only weak requests for restraint ...
"... It has been a week since so many were injured, the United States Capitol was ransacked, and six people were killed, including two police officers. Yet, the President has not addressed the nation to ask for calm. He has not visited the injured and grieving. He has not offered condolences. Yesterday in a press briefing at the border, he said his comments were 'perfectly appropriate.'"
"The combination of Trump's incitement of the crowd, his attacks on Vice President Mike Pence during the riot itself and his total lack of remorse over his role in the overrunning of the Capitol added up to be more than Rice could take. As he concluded his statement: "I have backed this President through thick and thin for four years. I campaigned for him and voted for him twice. But this utter failure is inexcusable."'
Liz Cheney too. Kudos.
Trump's behavior that day was awful, but really it was icing on the cake after attacking the legitimacy of a free and fair election for months. I'm glad ten Republicans in the House and ~five in the senate agree that he should face some accountability, but that is a pathetically low number.