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Started by bacardiandlime, January 30, 2020, 03:20:28 PM

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spork

Quote from: Treehugger on March 05, 2020, 03:31:31 AM

[. . .]

My point is not that we shouldn't be testing more. We definitely should be. How else are we going to contain the outbreak if we don't test?

[. . .]


The same way people have contained contagious diseases for centuries: self-quarantine.
It's terrible writing, used to obfuscate the fact that the authors actually have nothing to say.

Treehugger

Quote from: spork on March 05, 2020, 04:00:05 AM
Quote from: Treehugger on March 05, 2020, 03:31:31 AM

[. . .]

My point is not that we shouldn't be testing more. We definitely should be. How else are we going to contain the outbreak if we don't test?

[. . .]


The same way people have contained contagious diseases for centuries: self-quarantine.

So, you are suggesting that anyone and everyone who has cold and flu-like symptoms stay home? Well, I suppose that could work if we had more paid sick leave, but ha ha, we don't.

Kron3007

Quote from: clean on March 04, 2020, 05:23:28 PM
QuoteThere is no reason that there should be a testing ssue in the US when Canada and so many other countries seem to be able to do it.

Well, others on this fora are mentioning that there is no ONE test, so the test used in the US (reported to cost $100 to run) is not likely the test that others are using. The accuracy of the different tests around the world is also an issue, I am sure!  In this or the other Cornavirus thread, there was discussion of the Diamond Princess.  For much of the quarantine period, even Japan was unable to test the entirety of the passengers and crew, at least in any timely fashion.

Well, this is a different narrative than what I have read.  What I read is that there was a standard WHO test that was available, but the CDC decided to develop their own and essentially dropped the ball.

South Korea had conducted about 36 000 tests to the US's 500.  China has confirmed almost 90 000, so how many tests have they run?

I don't know where the response went wrong in the US, but it clearly did.

marshwiggle

Quote from: Treehugger on March 05, 2020, 04:03:19 AM
Quote from: spork on March 05, 2020, 04:00:05 AM
Quote from: Treehugger on March 05, 2020, 03:31:31 AM

[. . .]

My point is not that we shouldn't be testing more. We definitely should be. How else are we going to contain the outbreak if we don't test?

[. . .]


The same way people have contained contagious diseases for centuries: self-quarantine.

So, you are suggesting that anyone and everyone who has cold and flu-like symptoms stay home? Well, I suppose that could work if we had more paid sick leave, but ha ha, we don't.

Here's the xkcd take on this.

On a tangential note- Does anyone know what anti-vaxxers do in times like this? Will they avoid vaccinations during a pandemic? Or are they not that consistent?
It takes so little to be above average.

Kron3007

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 05, 2020, 04:57:47 AM
Quote from: Treehugger on March 05, 2020, 04:03:19 AM
Quote from: spork on March 05, 2020, 04:00:05 AM
Quote from: Treehugger on March 05, 2020, 03:31:31 AM

[. . .]

My point is not that we shouldn't be testing more. We definitely should be. How else are we going to contain the outbreak if we don't test?

[. . .]


The same way people have contained contagious diseases for centuries: self-quarantine.

So, you are suggesting that anyone and everyone who has cold and flu-like symptoms stay home? Well, I suppose that could work if we had more paid sick leave, but ha ha, we don't.

Here's the xkcd take on this.

On a tangential note- Does anyone know what anti-vaxxers do in times like this? Will they avoid vaccinations during a pandemic? Or are they not that consistent?
.

There was a pocket of religious based anti vaxxers in my area.  When there was a measles outbreak in their communuty, they lined up pretty quick....

marshwiggle

Quote from: Kron3007 on March 05, 2020, 05:03:22 AM
Quote
On a tangential note- Does anyone know what anti-vaxxers do in times like this? Will they avoid vaccinations during a pandemic? Or are they not that consistent?
.

There was a pocket of religious based anti vaxxers in my area.  When there was a measles outbreak in their community, they lined up pretty quick....

I'm curious; do you know if they were against vaccines in general, or just specific ones like HPV?
It takes so little to be above average.

Caracal

Quote from: Treehugger on March 05, 2020, 04:03:19 AM
Quote from: spork on March 05, 2020, 04:00:05 AM
Quote from: Treehugger on March 05, 2020, 03:31:31 AM

[. . .]

My point is not that we shouldn't be testing more. We definitely should be. How else are we going to contain the outbreak if we don't test?

[. . .]


The same way people have contained contagious diseases for centuries: self-quarantine.

So, you are suggesting that anyone and everyone who has cold and flu-like symptoms stay home? Well, I suppose that could work if we had more paid sick leave, but ha ha, we don't.

I've wondered about this sort of guidance too. I suppose as an adjunct, I have sort of light, unofficial sick leave. If I get sick I can just write my chair, cancel class and I don't lose any pay. But I have a kid in daycare, if I cancelled class every time I had sort of a gross cold, I'd probably be cancelling a class at least every three weeks. The distinction I really make is between the kind of sick where I know that once I start lecturing I'll forget about it, vs the kind where in the middle of the lecture I'm thinking "oh man, I feel like garbage. When is this over."

I saw an op ed with a guy on the Diamond Princess who owned a small business and said that for him it had been pretty mild and that if he had gotten this in the course of his normal life he probably would have just gone to work since it really didn't feel much worse than just a bad cold. It just seems like it probably isn't practicable to be telling people that if they have minor cold symptoms they should stay home if everything is still open. If I'm not supposed to come in because I have a sore throat we should probably not be having class.

Caracal

Quote from: Kron3007 on March 05, 2020, 05:03:22 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 05, 2020, 04:57:47 AM
Quote from: Treehugger on March 05, 2020, 04:03:19 AM
Quote from: spork on March 05, 2020, 04:00:05 AM
Quote from: Treehugger on March 05, 2020, 03:31:31 AM

[. . .]

My point is not that we shouldn't be testing more. We definitely should be. How else are we going to contain the outbreak if we don't test?

[. . .]


The same way people have contained contagious diseases for centuries: self-quarantine.

So, you are suggesting that anyone and everyone who has cold and flu-like symptoms stay home? Well, I suppose that could work if we had more paid sick leave, but ha ha, we don't.

Here's the xkcd take on this.

On a tangential note- Does anyone know what anti-vaxxers do in times like this? Will they avoid vaccinations during a pandemic? Or are they not that consistent?
.

There was a pocket of religious based anti vaxxers in my area.  When there was a measles outbreak in their communuty, they lined up pretty quick....

Hmm, if you'r referring to Orthodox Jewish communities in certain areas, it isn't really accurate to describe the opposition as religious. It was more that in some particular cultural contexts, anti vax movements got a lot of currency. The actual religious authorities were never involved and mostly encouraged vaccinations once it became clear there was an issue.

Kron3007

Quote from: Caracal on March 05, 2020, 05:34:09 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on March 05, 2020, 05:03:22 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 05, 2020, 04:57:47 AM
Quote from: Treehugger on March 05, 2020, 04:03:19 AM
Quote from: spork on March 05, 2020, 04:00:05 AM
Quote from: Treehugger on March 05, 2020, 03:31:31 AM

[. . .]

My point is not that we shouldn't be testing more. We definitely should be. How else are we going to contain the outbreak if we don't test?

[. . .]


The same way people have contained contagious diseases for centuries: self-quarantine.

So, you are suggesting that anyone and everyone who has cold and flu-like symptoms stay home? Well, I suppose that could work if we had more paid sick leave, but ha ha, we don't.

Here's the xkcd take on this.

On a tangential note- Does anyone know what anti-vaxxers do in times like this? Will they avoid vaccinations during a pandemic? Or are they not that consistent?
.

There was a pocket of religious based anti vaxxers in my area.  When there was a measles outbreak in their communuty, they lined up pretty quick....

Hmm, if you'r referring to Orthodox Jewish communities in certain areas, it isn't really accurate to describe the opposition as religious. It was more that in some particular cultural contexts, anti vax movements got a lot of currency. The actual religious authorities were never involved and mostly encouraged vaccinations once it became clear there was an issue.

No, a different group.  I don't really know their specific reasons, perhaps it was not entirely religious.  Regardless, they changed their tune pretty quick when it was in their own back yard.

As far as I know, they were against all vaccines.

spork

#114
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 05, 2020, 04:57:47 AM
Quote from: Treehugger on March 05, 2020, 04:03:19 AM
Quote from: spork on March 05, 2020, 04:00:05 AM
Quote from: Treehugger on March 05, 2020, 03:31:31 AM

[. . .]

My point is not that we shouldn't be testing more. We definitely should be. How else are we going to contain the outbreak if we don't test?

[. . .]


The same way people have contained contagious diseases for centuries: self-quarantine.

So, you are suggesting that anyone and everyone who has cold and flu-like symptoms stay home? Well, I suppose that could work if we had more paid sick leave, but ha ha, we don't.

Here's the xkcd take on this.

[. . .]

Well that pretty much describes me to a T.

Generally, to minimize spread of head colds and influenza, anyone with symptoms should not be at work or school -- especially if one of those symptoms is fever, or if leaving the house means close contact with vulnerable populations (elderly, immune suppressed, etc.). We all know that is usually far from common practice. But it is effective when people do isolate themselves.

There are K-12 schools in the USA and other countries that are simply shutting down for an indefinite period because of possible contact between pupils or employees and people who possibly have Covid-19. It's a smart attempt at preemption. Previously isolation has reduced the spread of smallpox, polio, and Ebola. I just wish people would use this strategy for the common, non-dread risk illnesses like head colds.
It's terrible writing, used to obfuscate the fact that the authors actually have nothing to say.

marshwiggle

Quote from: spork on March 05, 2020, 06:11:09 AM

Generally, to minimize spread of head colds and influenza, anyone with symptoms should not be at work or school -- especially if one of those symptoms is fever, or if leaving the house means close contact with vulnerable populations (elderly, immune suppressed, etc.). We all know that is usually far from common practice. But it is effective when people do isolate themselves.

There are K-12 schools in the USA and other countries that are simply shutting down for an indefinite period because of possible contact between pupils or employees and people who possibly have Covid-19. It's a smart attempt at preemption.

But it's totally unsustainable in the long term. Unless there's a current spike in cases in a particular area, how are they going to make the decision to re-open? If there are no current cases, what's the metric they are using to evaluate the risks? And how long until the next similarly dangerous factor is on the horizon?
It takes so little to be above average.

pigou

Quote from: spork on March 05, 2020, 06:11:09 AM
There are K-12 schools in the USA and other countries that are simply shutting down for an indefinite period because of possible contact between pupils or employees and people who possibly have Covid-19. It's a smart attempt at preemption. Previously isolation has reduced the spread of smallpox, polio, and Ebola. I just wish people would use this strategy for the common, non-dread risk illnesses like head colds.
This seems like a terrible policy. On top of marshwiggle's concern that there's no natural end, this imposes a big burden on parents who now need to find caretakers. A likely outcome is that grandparents will look after the kids... but, of course, the elderly are the group most susceptible to adverse health outcomes if they get infected. Kids (and non-elderly adults), on the other hand, seem to recover pretty easily. So this may reduce the number of infections/cases, while simultaneously driving up the number of deaths.

marshwiggle

Quote from: pigou on March 05, 2020, 06:56:54 AM
Quote from: spork on March 05, 2020, 06:11:09 AM
There are K-12 schools in the USA and other countries that are simply shutting down for an indefinite period because of possible contact between pupils or employees and people who possibly have Covid-19. It's a smart attempt at preemption. Previously isolation has reduced the spread of smallpox, polio, and Ebola. I just wish people would use this strategy for the common, non-dread risk illnesses like head colds.
This seems like a terrible policy. On top of marshwiggle's concern that there's no natural end, this imposes a big burden on parents who now need to find caretakers.

And working single parents with no family close by, i.e. some of the most vulnerable already, will probably have to resort to all kinds of precarious arrangements....indefinitely.

Quote
A likely outcome is that grandparents will look after the kids... but, of course, the elderly are the group most susceptible to adverse health outcomes if they get infected. Kids (and non-elderly adults), on the other hand, seem to recover pretty easily. So this may reduce the number of infections/cases, while simultaneously driving up the number of deaths.

And places where a bunch of kids are being taken care of together, cases will cluster in these childcare settings with no consistent procedures in place rather than in schools where protocols can be enforced.
It takes so little to be above average.

Caracal

Quote from: spork on March 05, 2020, 06:11:09 AM


Generally, to minimize spread of head colds and influenza, anyone with symptoms should not be at work or school -- especially if one of those symptoms is fever, or if leaving the house means close contact with vulnerable populations (elderly, immune suppressed, etc.). We all know that is usually far from common practice. But it is effective when people do isolate themselves.

There are K-12 schools in the USA and other countries that are simply shutting down for an indefinite period because of possible contact between pupils or employees and people who possibly have Covid-19. It's a smart attempt at preemption. Previously isolation has reduced the spread of smallpox, polio, and Ebola. I just wish people would use this strategy for the common, non-dread risk illnesses like head colds.

Again, if you're talking about the flu, absolutely. I really can't see how this is feasible for colds. Sure, if you have a cold and you have the sort of job where you can work from home for the day without a lot of disruption, that's probably sensible and more comfortable. But, as a college professor, I just can't cancel class every time I have a cold. With a kid in daycare, I'd never be in class.

magnemite

As I sneeze out of control because of tree pollen, and blow my nose, etc, I'm getting the "stink-eye" from some folks...
may you ride eternal, shiny and chrome