News:

Welcome to the new (and now only) Fora!

Main Menu

Coronavirus

Started by bacardiandlime, January 30, 2020, 03:20:28 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

polly_mer

Quote from: hmaria1609 on June 27, 2019, 07:07:43 PM
Do whatever you want--I'm just the background dancer in your show!

marshwiggle

Quote from: Cheerful on May 13, 2020, 07:27:18 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 13, 2020, 07:21:02 AM
"Mostly online" is pretty much like "a little bit pregnant".

How so?  Some campus labs are still being visited during the shutdown.

So if a student is taking one course with a lab, do they have to live on campus, but if they're taking no lab courses they are supposed to stay home? If they drop a lab course during they term, are they supposed to go home? Should people on the waiting list for a lab course have their bags packed in case they have to move on campus?

And this doesn't even start to adress the physical distancing issues for labs. For instance, if a lab already has enough sections that it's in operation most hours of the week, what do you do if you have to cut the number of students per section in half for distancing purposes? Labs often require people to work with a partner; do all labs need to get adapted so everyone works alone? If not, how do partners distance when they're working at the same bench?

"Mostly online" vastly understates the effort required to adapt labs for the current situation, whether by "virtuallizing" them or by trying to adapt them for face to face but with all of the covid safety measures required.
It takes so little to be above average.

Cheerful

Thanks, marshwiggle.  Yes, complex and problematic.

I was thinking mainly of faculty researchers and maybe a few grad students coming in to use labs periodically, not volumes of undergrads.  No can do on lots of undergrads. I don't have any answers.

pgher

I don't believe any college, including my own, that says it's for-sure open for residential, in-person activities in the fall. I believe that's their/our intention, but I won't believe it will actually happen until August. There are too many variables, too much that can happen between now and then that will change social distancing and other requirements. As Yogi Berra said, "Making predictions is hard, especially about the future."

I talked with a lab TA yesterday. We had to do an abrupt change in the middle of the semester. I think it was an adequate experience for the students, but would not be sufficient for a full semester.

spork

It's terrible writing, used to obfuscate the fact that the authors actually have nothing to say.

polly_mer

Quote from: spork on May 13, 2020, 09:55:32 AM
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-16256-y

The key phrase in that article is "in cell culture".  Therefore, worth funding for more research, but nowhere near ready for prime time.
Quote from: hmaria1609 on June 27, 2019, 07:07:43 PM
Do whatever you want--I'm just the background dancer in your show!

marshwiggle

Quote from: pgher on May 13, 2020, 09:44:43 AM
I talked with a lab TA yesterday. We had to do an abrupt change in the middle of the semester. I think it was an adequate experience for the students, but would not be sufficient for a full semester.

Exactly. Virtuallizing labs is HARD. Adapting labs for distancing is HARD. But they are mutually exclusive in terms of how to adapt. So this past term everyone did the best they could because it was completely unpredictable. In the Fall, perparation has to be for one or the other. Switching partway through the term would be, as the saying goes, a fecal display.

No-one can be blamed for the disruption last term. That's NOT the case for the Fall.

A couple of phrases come to mind:
"Failing to plan is plannig to fail"
"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

Any place that opens face to face and then has to revert to virtual deserves any and all the criticism they get.
It takes so little to be above average.

clean

Quote"Mostly online" is pretty much like "a little bit pregnant".

How so?  Some campus labs are still being visited during the shutdown.

Some pregnant women still get 'visited' by the fetus' father as well.



The longer story...

in college I worked at a pharmacy. I was very quiet and shy and easily embarrassed then (probably still am).  I knew that the pharmacist I was working for had been trying to get pregnant.  When she announced that she was I said, for me the most outlandish thing I could think of.  "Oh, so now you can quit practicing".  Right away she replied (and embarased me for bringing it up, "Oh now, Now you have to keep adding the parts. The difference between a boy and a girl is just one time!"   She continued, "Later in the pregnancy the doctor will tell you to stop having sex. That means that the baby is done.  And that is why new mothers inspect the baby to count the fingers and toes to make sure that there are neither too many (they didnt stop) or too few (they didnt do it enough)."

And as THIS was a medical professional It MUST be true!  (Of course now that I have related that story and it is on the internet, you can discount it now).

"The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am"  Darth Vader

the_geneticist

Quote from: marshwiggle on May 13, 2020, 10:19:11 AM
Quote from: pgher on May 13, 2020, 09:44:43 AM
I talked with a lab TA yesterday. We had to do an abrupt change in the middle of the semester. I think it was an adequate experience for the students, but would not be sufficient for a full semester.

Exactly. Virtuallizing labs is HARD. Adapting labs for distancing is HARD. But they are mutually exclusive in terms of how to adapt. So this past term everyone did the best they could because it was completely unpredictable. In the Fall, perparation has to be for one or the other. Switching partway through the term would be, as the saying goes, a fecal display.

No-one can be blamed for the disruption last term. That's NOT the case for the Fall.

A couple of phrases come to mind:
"Failing to plan is plannig to fail"
"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

Any place that opens face to face and then has to revert to virtual deserves any and all the criticism they get.

Well, I'll be stocking up on popcorn so I can sit back and watch the inevitable sh!tstorm when my university's lack of planning puts us in an entirely preventable crisis.

I had TWO WEEKS, a budget of $0, and no access to campus to make my labs online for Spring quarter.  What I've created is pretty gosh darn amazing considering the circumstances.  But it's not comparable to in person.   Yes, the learning goals are the same; yes, the content is similar; yes, the students are getting experience with experimental design.  But it's just not the same from the hand-on, interactive, peer-instruction level.

I know, even if the admins don't admit it yet, that our Fall classes will all be online.  Might be a few exceptions for some very small, upper division labs.  But we just don't have the space to keep folks at least 6 feet apart!  I'll be spending Summer improving my big intro labs so they are a better experience.  And here I was sort of hoping that this was a one-off . . . .

Parasaurolophus

Quote from: the_geneticist on May 13, 2020, 11:15:10 AM

I know, even if the admins don't admit it yet, that our Fall classes will all be online. 

This. So, so this.

The two big universities in town have already announced they'll be mostly online in the fall. Ours is postponing the realization for as long as it can, but the reality is that our classroom barely fit the 35 they're all supposed to take.
I know it's a genus.

marshwiggle

Quote from: the_geneticist on May 13, 2020, 11:15:10 AM

I had TWO WEEKS, a budget of $0, and no access to campus to make my labs online for Spring quarter.
As Marvin (from "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy") would say, "Not an electronic sausage."

Quote
What I've created is pretty gosh darn amazing considering the circumstances.  But it's not comparable to in person.   Yes, the learning goals are the same; yes, the content is similar; yes, the students are getting experience with experimental design.  But it's just not the same from the hand-on, interactive, peer-instruction level.

I know, even if the admins don't admit it yet, that our Fall classes will all be online.  Might be a few exceptions for some very small, upper division labs.  But we just don't have the space to keep folks at least 6 feet apart! I'll be spending Summer improving my big intro labs so they are a better experience.  And here I was sort of hoping that this was a one-off . . . .

But I think the question for a lot of us is, "After I've done all of this work to make reasonable virtual labs, are there at least a subset of students (such as non-majors) who might want to take this course that would get reasonable value from the virtual version?"

There might be a surprising number of cases where the answer is a qualified yes.
It takes so little to be above average.

Caracal

Quote from: marshwiggle on May 13, 2020, 10:19:11 AM
[\

Any place that opens face to face and then has to revert to virtual deserves any and all the criticism they get.

I really disagree with this. I think it is a toxic sort of mentality, that isn't going to help you, or anyone else, navigate the next year or more. Certainty is something we aren't going to get. Everybody isn't going to stay home forever, things will restart, but it is going to be tenuous, and there may be a need to revert back to more extreme forms of distancing. That won't be a failure on anyone's part, as long as they have made contingency plans and acted responsibly.

The failure would be if reopening isn't carefully considered, or if it happens despite obvious signs that it wouldn't be a good idea.

I worry that if my school reopened, there wouldn't be clear plans for how to handle a surge in cases, either in the area or at the school. If they have a plan, and follow it, and that plan results in either a temporary or permanent suspension of in person classes before the risk gets too high, that would be an example of good leadership. It wouldn't be a failure just because they didn't have a crystal ball.



marshwiggle

Quote from: Caracal on May 13, 2020, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 13, 2020, 10:19:11 AM
[\

Any place that opens face to face and then has to revert to virtual deserves any and all the criticism they get.

I really disagree with this. I think it is a toxic sort of mentality, that isn't going to help you, or anyone else, navigate the next year or more. Certainty is something we aren't going to get. Everybody isn't going to stay home forever, things will restart, but it is going to be tenuous, and there may be a need to revert back to more extreme forms of distancing. That won't be a failure on anyone's part, as long as they have made contingency plans and acted responsibly.

To have any shred of credibility, they need to publicize the conditions under which they'd revert to virtual before the term starts. This time it was unforseeable, but in the Fall it is not only forseeable, but with significant probability. (For instance, here they announced Friday after classes were done that as of Monday we'd be virtual. Not even a day to get ready. This time it's understandable. In the Fall that sort of thing would be grossly incompetent.)


Quote
The failure would be if reopening isn't carefully considered, or if it happens despite obvious signs that it wouldn't be a good idea.

I worry that if my school reopened, there wouldn't be clear plans for how to handle a surge in cases, either in the area or at the school. If they have a plan, and follow it, and that plan results in either a temporary or permanent suspension of in person classes before the risk gets too high, that would be an example of good leadership. It wouldn't be a failure just because they didn't have a crystal ball.

They don't need a crystal ball; for months the prediction has been that a vaccine won't likely be available until at least mid to late 2021, and until then more outbreaks are a real threat. To open before then is a calculated risk. If it's carefully planned, then the plans should be made public as much as possible to avoid blindsiding everyone if the situation warrants another shutdown.
It takes so little to be above average.

sprout

Quote from: marshwiggle on May 13, 2020, 11:40:48 AM
But I think the question for a lot of us is, "After I've done all of this work to make reasonable virtual labs, are there at least a subset of students (such as non-majors) who might want to take this course that would get reasonable value from the virtual version?"

There might be a surprising number of cases where the answer is a qualified yes.

This has been a part of my thinking/planning. We have majors courses where the hands-on practical skills in lab really are a critical part of what students need to get out of the course, and will be expected to have when they transfer.  But in the non-majors introductory courses, the basic goals are to get students to learn how to think like a scientist and to understand some fundamental disciplinary concepts.  They can still get this if they're, for example, learning how to use a microscope in theory but not actually turning a physical knob. 

Anselm

Quote from: sprout on May 13, 2020, 06:21:37 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 13, 2020, 11:40:48 AM
But I think the question for a lot of us is, "After I've done all of this work to make reasonable virtual labs, are there at least a subset of students (such as non-majors) who might want to take this course that would get reasonable value from the virtual version?"

There might be a surprising number of cases where the answer is a qualified yes.

This has been a part of my thinking/planning. We have majors courses where the hands-on practical skills in lab really are a critical part of what students need to get out of the course, and will be expected to have when they transfer.  But in the non-majors introductory courses, the basic goals are to get students to learn how to think like a scientist and to understand some fundamental disciplinary concepts.  They can still get this if they're, for example, learning how to use a microscope in theory but not actually turning a physical knob.

I am still waiting to hear how my community college will conduct online courses in welding and auto repair.
I am Dr. Thunderdome and I run Bartertown.