Coronavirus

[PhilRunner]

I keep waiting for someone to explain how students are supposed to occupy residence halls safely. I just read the newly released CDC guidelines for higher education, and they presume that there are no cases on campus at the start of opening in the fall. We're going to be bringing 20,000+ people into our community and campus from other areas. Are people building plans on the presumption that none of those 20,000 will bring the coronavirus onto campus? Will students be expected to isolate for 2 weeks in their dorms to set a baseline before resuming classes? Will students be expected to isolate with their roommates? Given how much interpersonal work is required, especially during the immediacy of crises that erupt, how can we ask students to be RAs under these circumstances? There are so many baseline questions that people aren't answering. All of the documents I've read fail to take on detailed analyses. This is maddening.

[Caracal]

I keep waiting for someone to explain how students are supposed to occupy residence halls safely. I just read the newly released CDC guidelines for higher education, and they presume that there are no cases on campus at the start of opening in the fall. We're going to be bringing 20,000+ people into our community and campus from other areas. Are people building plans on the presumption that none of those 20,000 will bring the coronavirus onto campus? Will students be expected to isolate for 2 weeks in their dorms to set a baseline before resuming classes? Will students be expected to isolate with their roommates? Given how much interpersonal work is required, especially during the immediacy of crises that erupt, how can we ask students to be RAs under these circumstances? There are so many baseline questions that people aren't answering. All of the documents I've read fail to take on detailed analyses. This is maddening.

I tried to look for the new guidance and all I found was an article that said they hadn't issued any new guidance yet for higher ed.

[marshwiggle]

I keep waiting for someone to explain how students are supposed to occupy residence halls safely. I just read the newly released CDC guidelines for higher education, and they presume that there are no cases on campus at the start of opening in the fall. We're going to be bringing 20,000+ people into our community and campus from other areas. Are people building plans on the presumption that none of those 20,000 will bring the coronavirus onto campus? Will students be expected to isolate for 2 weeks in their dorms to set a baseline before resuming classes? Will students be expected to isolate with their roommates?

Even these things would be basically pointless unless all of the students are essentially locked in for the entire term; no going off campus on weekends, including going home. And of course, students couldn't live off campus for the same reason.

[Caracal]

I keep waiting for someone to explain how students are supposed to occupy residence halls safely. I just read the newly released CDC guidelines for higher education, and they presume that there are no cases on campus at the start of opening in the fall. We're going to be bringing 20,000+ people into our community and campus from other areas. Are people building plans on the presumption that none of those 20,000 will bring the coronavirus onto campus? Will students be expected to isolate for 2 weeks in their dorms to set a baseline before resuming classes? Will students be expected to isolate with their roommates?

Even these things would be basically pointless unless all of the students are essentially locked in for the entire term; no going off campus on weekends, including going home. And of course, students couldn't live off campus for the same reason.

I really don't think anybody is making plans on the basis that it would be possible to create some sort of student bubble. Or, at least, I haven't seen that anywhere. I think this hits on two points that seem to get lost in this whole discussion.

1. All or this is heavily dependent on the national and local situations and nobody actually knows what that will be in September. If cases aren't at a manageable level, most schools aren't going to have in person classes.

2. The goal isn't perfect safety, its risk reduction and management. If you're a big campus open in the fall, there will almost certainly be some COVID cases. The question is whether it is possible to make dorms and campus environments places where you don't have rapid spread. I don't have any insight on how possible that is, but that's the question. Of course, that is heavily connected to the success of contact tracing and modifications of behavior, in general.

[clean]

The goal isn't perfect safety, its risk reduction and management.

From what I am hearing on MY campus, it is about Opening with Face to Face offerings in some form So That we can justify our tuition costs and generate revenues in the dorms and garage.

Yes, my dean included budget concerns that included justifications for opening campus (even in some hybrid half of the class meets on one day and the other half gets the same lecture on Wednesday.  The other part of our contact hours are done online).  The budget concerns included that there are bond issues that must be paid on several academic buildings (including ours), the dorm buildings and the parking garage.  If we dont have students in the dorms that debt has to be paid from general revenue rather than dorm related revenues.  Same problem with the garage.  No one comes to campus, no one buys a parking pass!

So... Safety seems to be at best a secondary if not a tertiary issue.  Further evidence is that IF faculty have conditions that would prevent them from returning to campus, they should begin gathering doctor's certification of their conditions to support ADA applications!

[Caracal]

The goal isn't perfect safety, its risk reduction and management.

From what I am hearing on MY campus, it is about Opening with Face to Face offerings in some form So That we can justify our tuition costs and generate revenues in the dorms and garage.

Yes, my dean included budget concerns that included justifications for opening campus (even in some hybrid half of the class meets on one day and the other half gets the same lecture on Wednesday.  The other part of our contact hours are done online).  The budget concerns included that there are bond issues that must be paid on several academic buildings (including ours), the dorm buildings and the parking garage.  If we dont have students in the dorms that debt has to be paid from general revenue rather than dorm related revenues.  Same problem with the garage.  No one comes to campus, no one buys a parking pass!

So... Safety seems to be at best a secondary if not a tertiary issue.  Further evidence is that IF faculty have conditions that would prevent them from returning to campus, they should begin gathering doctor's certification of their conditions to support ADA applications!

I think that misses the point. Motivations aren't likely to matter that much. If students, as well as faculty, think that coming to campus is  likely to get them and people close to them sick, schools aren't going to be able to have in person classes. It won't matter how much the administration wants to sell parking passes, it isn't going to happen.

[Wahoo Redux]

The Atlantic just published "Colleges That Reopen Are Deluding Themselves."

It doesn't say very much that's new, really, but it does point out the reality of student fees in college survival.

Rock and a hard place.

We are in one of those partially opened states.  My MIL's hairdresser had to open her business or miss making her house payment.  What else could she do?

[PhilRunner]

Valid points. This CHE article asks important questions:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Case-Against-Reopening/248785?key=3nPk8ajeoU0Dy8ZoVQauE6CknsGdfLkzzAszZ4C9KD_9ieELrTXQPn5U4_AY_Bs7Y0JNSzh5MTV1cmZWWHduSUJRMWkxa2VHbGdRMXF1cURpbElwRVZ6TjI0RQ

[Caracal]

The Atlantic just published "Colleges That Reopen Are Deluding Themselves."

It doesn't say very much that's new, really, but it does point out the reality of student fees in college survival.

Rock and a hard place.

We are in one of those partially opened states.  My MIL's hairdresser had to open her business or miss making her house payment.  What else could she do?

There are parts of this I completely agree with. However, I think it is illustrative of the way in which the poisonous politics around reopening have pushed people into extreme positions. It is easy to say, no elevated level of risk is acceptable, but, the problem is that it isn't true. We have to accept some risk if we're going to mitigate the secondary effects. This isn't an argument for reopening colleges in the fall. If it can't be done without fueling outbreaks it shouldn't happen. However, there are real costs to online classes and those costs have to be balanced against the harm.

[Cheerful]

The Atlantic just published "Colleges That Reopen Are Deluding Themselves."

Article sounds interesting, thanks.  Link doesn't work for me.

[Cheerful]

Valid points. This CHE article asks important questions:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Case-Against-Reopening/248785?key=3nPk8ajeoU0Dy8ZoVQauE6CknsGdfLkzzAszZ4C9KD_9ieELrTXQPn5U4_AY_Bs7Y0JNSzh5MTV1cmZWWHduSUJRMWkxa2VHbGdRMXF1cURpbElwRVZ6TjI0RQ

Thanks.  Many important points.  Hope U decision makers are thinking carefully and methodically, not just monetarily.

[downer]

The Atlantic just published "Colleges That Reopen Are Deluding Themselves."

Article sounds interesting, thanks.  Link doesn't work for me.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/colleges-that-reopen-are-making-a-big-mistake/611485/

[apl68]

So, last month I participated in a community COVID-19 screening hosted by a local doctor's office.  Each participant was assured that insurance would cover it.  I got my throat swabbed and, as expected, received a negative result.

Now I find that I'm being billed well over two thousand dollars for that procedure!  I've had to spend part of the morning contacting the insurance office to try to see what's going on.  I've also called the doctor's office to ask whether any of the other two hundred-odd people who had this screening have gotten any strange bills.  They said that they'd had no other complaints.  Nor could they figure out how a $140 lab fee eligible for insurance turned into a bill of over two grand.

My guess is that somehow a bunch of tests from that day got rolled into one giant bill and randomly dropped on me.  I know that one way or another I'm not going to end up having to pay that ridiculous bill...but really!  I've had to waste time and energy dealing with this, and am not done yet.  This makes me not want to participate in any future community screenings.  I had no particular reason to suspect I had the virus.  I just joined in to try to be a good citizen by providing another data point.  And this is what happens!  Goof-ups like this are going to discourage the necessary business of community testing.

[Parasaurolophus]

So, last month I participated in a community COVID-19 screening hosted by a local doctor's office.  Each participant was assured that insurance would cover it.  I got my throat swabbed and, as expected, received a negative result.

Now I find that I'm being billed well over two thousand dollars for that procedure!  I've had to spend part of the morning contacting the insurance office to try to see what's going on.  I've also called the doctor's office to ask whether any of the other two hundred-odd people who had this screening have gotten any strange bills.  They said that they'd had no other complaints.  Nor could they figure out how a $140 lab fee eligible for insurance turned into a bill of over two grand.

My guess is that somehow a bunch of tests from that day got rolled into one giant bill and randomly dropped on me.  I know that one way or another I'm not going to end up having to pay that ridiculous bill...but really!  I've had to waste time and energy dealing with this, and am not done yet.  This makes me not want to participate in any future community screenings.  I had no particular reason to suspect I had the virus.  I just joined in to try to be a good citizen by providing another data point.  And this is what happens!  Goof-ups like this are going to discourage the necessary business of community testing.

Yes, but you had the freedom to choose your local doctor's office, and to get tested. You can't put a price on that! Besides, it was just more efficient to bundle the bills together and roll a D20 to figure out who pays for it. Also: choices have consequences.

(/sarcasm, in case it wasn't clear! I'm so sorry you have to deal with that BS, especially since it's time that would be better spent on almost anything else. I'm constantly amazed by the time and energy my partner, who's American and not yet a permanent resident here, has to put into getting medical stuff reimbursed.)

[marshwiggle]

(/sarcasm, in case it wasn't clear! I'm so sorry you have to deal with that BS, especially since it's time that would be better spent on almost anything else. I'm constantly amazed by the time and energy my partner, who's American and not yet a permanent resident here, has to put into getting medical stuff reimbursed.)

Yeah, usually the argument to have services delivered by the private sector instead of by the government is to reduce beaureacracy, but I never cease to be amazed at the indredible amount of red tape Americans put up with for a more "efficient" private system.