“Privilege” as cudgel in private conversation

[writingprof]

Yes, white people have a racial advantage over black people, in our society.

I will grudgingly accept that this is the case on the whole.  But in the professional world occupied by everyone on these fora, the exact opposite is true, and we all know it.

[marshwiggle]

Ah yes, black people just imagine that racism is operant in their lives, and their failure to make more progress is all because they're hoodwinked into thinking bigotry exists and affects them.

....

To which I say, in the words of Edna St. Vincent Millay, "It's not one damn thing after another, it's the same damn thing over and over."

The question is not whether many people belonging to any historically disadvantaged group have struggles which the government ought to address; it's whether the focus on addressing these issues should be group identity. A poor community can be easily and objectively identified by all kinds of indicators that are not based on race, sex, etc., and progress (or the lack thereof) can also be measured according to those indicators. This doesn't get the whole issue sidetracked into a debate about "systemic" discrimination, which goes down a bottomless rabbit-hole of what counts as "systemic", since the definiton is in constant flux.

[Wahoo Redux]

Yes, white people have a racial advantage over black people, in our society.

I will grudgingly accept that this is the case on the whole.  But in the professional world occupied by everyone on these fora, the exact opposite is true, and we all know it.

I think this is the point of Hegemony's post regarding the corn laws.

[mahagonny]

Yes, white people have a racial advantage over black people, in our society.

I will grudgingly accept that this is the case on the whole.  But in the professional world occupied by everyone on these fora, the exact opposite is true, and we all know it.

I think this is the point of Hegemony's post regarding the corn laws.

I didn't get too much from the post at all other than that it was interesting history. Is the point to compare the lot of starving peasants in 19th century to urban blacks of the USA in 2020? I know there is hunger but there is also obesity and a safety net. There is also a popular culture (hip hop) where obesity, as well as other really healthy intelligent things like crime, substance abuse, gun violence and premature death are signs that you're cool. This is a culture with some serious signs of self-inflicted confusion and turmoil. I didn't get the relevance of the rest of it either. Is pretending  people rioting over a hunger problem  don't have hunger because they are being told that they do and that, not experience, is the reason they believe it analogous to people being told their families are falling apart because of father absence when they can see this for themselves, therefore someone is  being mislead?

Ah yes, black people just imagine that racism is operant in their lives, and their failure to make more progress is all because they're hoodwinked into thinking bigotry exists and affects them.

....

To which I say, in the words of Edna St. Vincent Millay, "It's not one damn thing after another, it's the same damn thing over and over."

The question is not whether many people belonging to any historically disadvantaged group have struggles which the government ought to address; it's whether the focus on addressing these issues should be group identity. A poor community can be easily and objectively identified by all kinds of indicators that are not based on race, sex, etc., and progress (or the lack thereof) can also be measured according to those indicators. This doesn't get the whole issue sidetracked into a debate about "systemic" discrimination, which goes down a bottomless rabbit-hole of what counts as "systemic", since the definiton is in constant flux.

The point for the woke academics and other activist whites is not for the government to do something that's going to fix the problem. The point is for the government to not be doing enough yet so that their (the academics') research and publishing about systemic racism are necessary, visible, and get them the promotions they want.

but it may be I just didn't get it. Should have stayed in school longer. I'll keep trying.

[apl68]

Yes, white people have a racial advantage over black people, in our society.

I will grudgingly accept that this is the case on the whole.  But in the professional world occupied by everyone on these fora, the exact opposite is true, and we all know it.

I think this is the point of Hegemony's post regarding the corn laws.

I didn't get too much from the post at all other than that it was interesting history. Is the point to compare the lot of starving peasants in 19th century to urban blacks of the USA in 2020? I know there is hunger but there is also obesity and a safety net. There is also a popular culture (hip hop) where obesity, as well as other really healthy intelligent things like crime, substance abuse, gun violence and premature death are signs that you're cool. This is a culture with some serious signs of self-inflicted confusion and turmoil. I didn't get the relevance of the rest of it either. Is pretending  people rioting over a hunger problem  don't have hunger because they are being told that they do and that, not experience, is the reason they believe it analogous to people being told their families are falling apart because of father absence when they can see this for themselves, therefore someone is  being mislead?

I think the point hegemony was trying to make was that the riots did not lead to reform to fix the underlying issues, and so a decade and a half later they occurred again.  Likewise the rioting we're seeing now will undoubtedly recur if something serious is not done about the underlying causes.

[apl68]

Regarding the original post, it sounds to me like an example of the sorts of small eruptions that happen in times like these when everybody is feeling wound up.  We kind of have to bear with each other when stuff like this happens.

[mahagonny]

Yes, white people have a racial advantage over black people, in our society.

I will grudgingly accept that this is the case on the whole.  But in the professional world occupied by everyone on these fora, the exact opposite is true, and we all know it.

I think this is the point of Hegemony's post regarding the corn laws.

I didn't get too much from the post at all other than that it was interesting history. Is the point to compare the lot of starving peasants in 19th century to urban blacks of the USA in 2020? I know there is hunger but there is also obesity and a safety net. There is also a popular culture (hip hop) where obesity, as well as other really healthy intelligent things like crime, substance abuse, gun violence and premature death are signs that you're cool. This is a culture with some serious signs of self-inflicted confusion and turmoil. I didn't get the relevance of the rest of it either. Is pretending  people rioting over a hunger problem  don't have hunger because they are being told that they do and that, not experience, is the reason they believe it analogous to people being told their families are falling apart because of father absence when they can see this for themselves, therefore someone is  being mislead?

I think the point hegemony was trying to make was that the riots did not lead to reform to fix the underlying issues, and so a decade and a half later they occurred again.  Likewise the rioting we're seeing now will undoubtedly recur if something serious is not done about the underlying causes.

Thank you.

[apl68]

For one thing, since March, I have learned another language (Spanish), something I probably would never have done without Covid. Ok, I don't speak Spanish fluently, but now I've read Marquez and Llosa in Spanish, can at least get the gist of what people are saying on Spanish radio and through a online exchange program have met and am conversing with English language learners in Colombia and Peru.

Your mention of conversational partner contacts on another thread reminded me of this.  Congratulations on learning Spanish!

If you're brave enough, try some Borges in the original next.  Or even Cervantes.

[ciao_yall]

For one thing, since March, I have learned another language (Spanish), something I probably would never have done without Covid. Ok, I don't speak Spanish fluently, but now I've read Marquez and Llosa in Spanish, can at least get the gist of what people are saying on Spanish radio and through a online exchange program have met and am conversing with English language learners in Colombia and Peru.

Your mention of conversational partner contacts on another thread reminded me of this.  Congratulations on learning Spanish!

If you're brave enough, try some Borges in the original next.  Or even Cervantes.

I just read People En Espanol.

[apl68]

For one thing, since March, I have learned another language (Spanish), something I probably would never have done without Covid. Ok, I don't speak Spanish fluently, but now I've read Marquez and Llosa in Spanish, can at least get the gist of what people are saying on Spanish radio and through a online exchange program have met and am conversing with English language learners in Colombia and Peru.

Your mention of conversational partner contacts on another thread reminded me of this.  Congratulations on learning Spanish!

If you're brave enough, try some Borges in the original next.  Or even Cervantes.

I just read People En Espanol.

I'd rather grapple with Borges....

[Wahoo Redux]

For one thing, since March, I have learned another language (Spanish), something I probably would never have done without Covid. Ok, I don't speak Spanish fluently, but now I've read Marquez and Llosa in Spanish, can at least get the gist of what people are saying on Spanish radio and through a online exchange program have met and am conversing with English language learners in Colombia and Peru.

Your mention of conversational partner contacts on another thread reminded me of this.  Congratulations on learning Spanish!

If you're brave enough, try some Borges in the original next.  Or even Cervantes.

I just read People En Espanol.

I'd rather grapple with Borges....

I was just working on Donald Trump's May 2020 Economic Impact Payment letter which has English on one side and Spanish on another.  Trump is very proud to be sending us money.  What a guy.

[mouseman]

Yes, white people have a racial advantage over black people, in our society.

I will grudgingly accept that this is the case on the whole.  But in the professional world occupied by everyone on these fora, the exact opposite is true, and we all know it.

That is a very common logical fallacy, and is also untrue.

"X is true, and we all know it"

I have heard it so many times.

"Jews control the banks, and we all know it"

"Women are not as smart as men, and we all know it"

I could go on, but I think that my point is clear.

Making a false claim regarding a minority group, and then providing "support" by saying "we all know it" is a common logical fallacy and a device that is commonly used by bigots worldwide.

The fact that this is the level of your arguments tells me that you have no factual support for your claims.