Sometimes it feels like someone is kicking or moving my chair while I'm sitting in it. Sometimes it feels like I'm getting a little shove in the back. Sometimes I feel like there's a tap on my shoulder and I think I see movement in my peripheral vision. Turn around and nobody's ever there.
Is this one of those things like eye floaters that most people get from time to time? Because it's new to me.
Has anyone had similar sensations before?
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 29, 2020, 02:11:44 PM
Sometimes it feels like someone is kicking or moving my chair while I'm sitting in it. Sometimes it feels like I'm getting a little shove in the back. Sometimes I feel like there's a tap on my shoulder and I think I see movement in my peripheral vision. Turn around and nobody's ever there.
Is this one of those things like eye floaters that most people get from time to time? Because it's new to me.
Has anyone had similar sensations before?
I get the "phantom cell phone" effect every once in a while.
For unrelated reasons, I was reading up on early onset Alzheimer's; one symptom is hallucination. But the Alzheimer's Assoc. page points out that there are lots of other possible causes: mental, physical, sensory, and pharmacological.
Medial advice on the internet is notoriously bad, and I have no credentials to dispense it.
I hope you figure it out, and that they stop soon.
You need to be evaluated by a professional. Seek help.
Any new medications in your routine; some could do something like that.
Quote from: spork on February 29, 2020, 03:55:21 PM
You need to be evaluated by a professional. Seek help.
Have an evaluation next week. Due to start an outpatient program. These sensations are infrequent so they're not causing a huge problem. It's just weird.
Did some googling and looks like sometimes people with vestibular issues can sometimes feel like they are being pushed. Maybe mine is related to that.
The other suggestion I found was ghosts. Those would be some pretty bored ghosts. Who haunts a grad student?
Quote from: mahagonny on February 29, 2020, 04:01:37 PM
Any new medications in your routine; some could do something like that.
No new meds for a couple of months now. But I think I was getting these even earlier than that. I don't remember if it coincided with a med change.
I occasionally have stuff like that and have had for years. It's never been very bothersome or led to anything else.
Quote from: Hegemony on February 29, 2020, 05:01:09 PM
I occasionally have stuff like that and have had for years. It's never been very bothersome or led to anything else.
Just the pushing feeling? Or do you also sometimes feel like you see something moving in your peripheral vision?
Happened just now and startled me.
Quote from: spork on February 29, 2020, 03:55:21 PM
You need to be evaluated by a professional. Seek help.
I second this. You describe having both visual and tactile hallucinations. It can be harmless, it can be stress, or it can be symptoms of disease.
Quote from: mouseman on February 29, 2020, 09:36:58 PM
Quote from: spork on February 29, 2020, 03:55:21 PM
You need to be evaluated by a professional. Seek help.
I second this. You describe having both visual and tactile hallucinations. It can be harmless, it can be stress, or it can be symptoms of disease.
I'm seeing a doctor in a few days for an overall psych evaluation. I'll mention this stuff. Probably not an emergency or urgent care thing is it?
Can a hallucination be location-specific? There were days I heard weird sounds in the lab, but nobody else could when I tried to point it out. I though it was sensory sensitivity related to migraines. When I step into the hall, the sounds stop. If it were in my head, wouldn't the sound continue?
I do not think that it is see-a-doctor-in-24-hours urgent, a psych evaluation in a few days is good, and definitely mention these symptoms.
The sounds in the lab depend on what the sounds were, and who couldn't hear it. My daughter can hear many higher pitched sounds that I cannot.
Migraines could also be the cause of visual and auditory hallucinations, especially random noises and vague movements (rather than clear voices or vivid images). Also, all of these can be indices by stress and anxiety.
QuoteSometimes it feels like someone is kicking or moving my chair while I'm sitting in it. Sometimes it feels like I'm getting a little shove in the back. Sometimes I feel like there's a tap on my shoulder and I think I see movement in my peripheral vision.
You didnt try to recline your seat on a plane recently did you?
If not, then please do mention it at your doctor's visit. I do hope that you find out the cause if not a cure. (Sometimes just knowing what it is is enough to make it stop, or at least not be startling).
Quote from: mouseman on February 29, 2020, 10:45:25 PM
I do not think that it is see-a-doctor-in-24-hours urgent, a psych evaluation in a few days is good, and definitely mention these symptoms.
The sounds in the lab depend on what the sounds were, and who couldn't hear it. My daughter can hear many higher pitched sounds that I cannot.
Migraines could also be the cause of visual and auditory hallucinations, especially random noises and vague movements (rather than clear voices or vivid images). Also, all of these can be indices by stress and anxiety.
Your daughter is still in her teens though, isn't she? Except for the PI, I'm the oldest person in the lab.
Some of the sounds are like beeping alarms. Sometimes it's a machine-like hum. I've wandered around the lab, but it's hard to pinpoint location.
Sometimes I think I hear footsteps or people talking (usually sounds like mumbling). Rarely I hear specific words, sometimes whispered, sometimes shouted from a distance. But hearing these things occasionally has been going on for years (unlike the pushing feelings and seeing things moving out of the corner of my eye). I never thought too much of it or mentioned it to a doctor. I thought it was one of those things that everybody gets sometimes.
A few times, I have answered a doctor's question of "Have you ever heard or seen things that weren't really there?" with "I'm not sure." They always respond with "OK" and move on to the next question. No one's ever asked me to elaborate.
Hallucinations can occur in severe depression-- definitely describe these to your psychiatrist on your next visit.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 29, 2020, 08:46:28 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on February 29, 2020, 05:01:09 PM
I occasionally have stuff like that and have had for years. It's never been very bothersome or led to anything else.
Just the pushing feeling? Or do you also sometimes feel like you see something moving in your peripheral vision?
Happened just now and startled me.
Well, yes, certainly I have had that feeling that something moved when it didn't. I assume it is just that sometimes somewhere between the eye and the brain a signal can get crossed. For all of this stuff, however, what matters is not the specific stimuli, but the meanings you attach to it. Last month I was hearing this weird humming in my house and I even stuck my head out the front door to see if it was louder outside. Maybe it was the furnace making a weird noise, or it could have been some weird industrial thing 20 miles away, or maybe my ears were just ringing. Who knows, but this is the first time I've thought about it since then.
What you're describing is being really agitated about these things. That might be lots of things, including anxiety, but you definitely want a psychiatrist who can evaluate what seems to be going on.
Quote from: Caracal on March 01, 2020, 01:08:37 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 29, 2020, 08:46:28 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on February 29, 2020, 05:01:09 PM
I occasionally have stuff like that and have had for years. It's never been very bothersome or led to anything else.
Just the pushing feeling? Or do you also sometimes feel like you see something moving in your peripheral vision?
Happened just now and startled me.
Well, yes, certainly I have had that feeling that something moved when it didn't. I assume it is just that sometimes somewhere between the eye and the brain a signal can get crossed. For all of this stuff, however, what matters is not the specific stimuli, but the meanings you attach to it. Last month I was hearing this weird humming in my house and I even stuck my head out the front door to see if it was louder outside. Maybe it was the furnace making a weird noise, or it could have been some weird industrial thing 20 miles away, or maybe my ears were just ringing. Who knows, but this is the first time I've thought about it since then.
What you're describing is being really agitated about these things. That might be lots of things, including anxiety, but you definitely want a psychiatrist who can evaluate what seems to be going on.
I'm not really sure what this part means.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 01, 2020, 01:44:55 PM
For all of this stuff, however, what matters is not the specific stimuli, but the meanings you attach to it.
I'm not really sure what this part means.
I just mean that most of us have slightly weird sensory things occasionally. What seems important isn't really the specific things you are describing, but that you seem pretty agitated about them. Years ago, I was having a pretty high spike of anxiety. I noticed that if I covered up an eye with my hand and used only one eye, my right eye saw things significantly brighter than my left. I was nervous enough about this to schedule a visit to the optometrist. I hadn't been in a few years so I sort of pretended to myself that I was just checking to see if my prescription had changed. After the optometrist had done the check up and given my new prescription, I casually asked about the brightness thing. I was told that is totally normal, but also I'm pretty sure she was thinking "it is normal but who the hell checks."
Quote from: Caracal on March 03, 2020, 07:41:54 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 01, 2020, 01:44:55 PM
For all of this stuff, however, what matters is not the specific stimuli, but the meanings you attach to it.
I'm not really sure what this part means.
I just mean that most of us have slightly weird sensory things occasionally. What seems important isn't really the specific things you are describing, but that you seem pretty agitated about them. Years ago, I was having a pretty high spike of anxiety. I noticed that if I covered up an eye with my hand and used only one eye, my right eye saw things significantly brighter than my left. I was nervous enough about this to schedule a visit to the optometrist. I hadn't been in a few years so I sort of pretended to myself that I was just checking to see if my prescription had changed. After the optometrist had done the check up and given my new prescription, I casually asked about the brightness thing. I was told that is totally normal, but also I'm pretty sure she was thinking "it is normal but who the hell checks."
What would put something beyond "slightly weird"? Something beyond abnormally worrying about a normal thing? How can you tell what's a normal thing and what isn't?
What's making this different from what I've experienced before is that it's not so much a nebulous, hey-what-was-that sensation. I turn around fully expecting someone to be there because the touch feels so solid. The movement I see out of the corner of my eye is specifically like a person walking past (height, shape, arm-swinging motion). Yesterday I turned and saw a vague human outline in the center of my vision for a brief moment when I turned.
I followed the sound of footsteps and thought I saw a person's reflection off the window glass, but the area turned out to be empty.
Was having a conversation with my PI and a labmate and suddenly got a very strong feeling that the other people were fake, like in a simulation I couldn't exit. It became like watching a show rather than interacting with real people. Had a strong urge to touch them to see if they felt real; had enough presence of mind to not follow through with this impulse.
I didn't leave the lab until nearly 11pm because I felt scared to go outside. SO had to pick me up after his late-night class. He also seemed different and unreal somehow.
Dissociating is something I've experienced before, but recognizing it for what it is doesn't make it much more bearable.
OP, you should seek out a medical professional immediately. Please do this.
Wishing you the best. W
Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 03, 2020, 08:40:21 AM
Quote from: Caracal on March 03, 2020, 07:41:54 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 01, 2020, 01:44:55 PM
For all of this stuff, however, what matters is not the specific stimuli, but the meanings you attach to it.
I'm not really sure what this part means.
I just mean that most of us have slightly weird sensory things occasionally. What seems important isn't really the specific things you are describing, but that you seem pretty agitated about them. Years ago, I was having a pretty high spike of anxiety. I noticed that if I covered up an eye with my hand and used only one eye, my right eye saw things significantly brighter than my left. I was nervous enough about this to schedule a visit to the optometrist. I hadn't been in a few years so I sort of pretended to myself that I was just checking to see if my prescription had changed. After the optometrist had done the check up and given my new prescription, I casually asked about the brightness thing. I was told that is totally normal, but also I'm pretty sure she was thinking "it is normal but who the hell checks."
What would put something beyond "slightly weird"? Something beyond abnormally worrying about a normal thing? How can you tell what's a normal thing and what isn't?
What's making this different from what I've experienced before is that it's not so much a nebulous, hey-what-was-that sensation. I turn around fully expecting someone to be there because the touch feels so solid. The movement I see out of the corner of my eye is specifically like a person walking past (height, shape, arm-swinging motion). Yesterday I turned and saw a vague human outline in the center of my vision for a brief moment when I turned.
I followed the sound of footsteps and thought I saw a person's reflection off the window glass, but the area turned out to be empty.
Was having a conversation with my PI and a labmate and suddenly got a very strong feeling that the other people were fake, like in a simulation I couldn't exit. It became like watching a show rather than interacting with real people. Had a strong urge to touch them to see if they felt real; had enough presence of mind to not follow through with this impulse.
I didn't leave the lab until nearly 11pm because I felt scared to go outside. SO had to pick me up after his late-night class. He also seemed different and unreal somehow.
Dissociating is something I've experienced before, but recognizing it for what it is doesn't make it much more bearable.
Trying to think your way out of mental health problems never works. I suspect academics are particularly prone to this, because collecting evidence and putting it together into a coherent picture is what we do for our job. I always think that if I can really understand what is happening then I can fix it, but all that does is send you deeper into the weeds. It seems clear that whatever is going on is causing you a lot of distress and having a significant impact on your ability to go about your life. You don't mention anything about feelings of harming yourself or anyone else, but if any of that is involved you should get immediate help. If that isn't the case, I hope you have been able to discuss all this with your SO. It seems like it would be a good thing if there was someone around who was keeping an eye on things.
Quote from: Caracal on March 03, 2020, 09:08:15 AM
Trying to think your way out of mental health problems never works. I suspect academics are particularly prone to this, because collecting evidence and putting it together into a coherent picture is what we do for our job. I always think that if I can really understand what is happening then I can fix it, but all that does is send you deeper into the weeds. It seems clear that whatever is going on is causing you a lot of distress and having a significant impact on your ability to go about your life. You don't mention anything about feelings of harming yourself or anyone else, but if any of that is involved you should get immediate help. If that isn't the case, I hope you have been able to discuss all this with your SO. It seems like it would be a good thing if there was someone around who was keeping an eye on things.
Caracal, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I really don't understand this. If you don't think to solve a problem, what do you do?
Practically every therapeutic technique that has ever helped me involves some type of thought: evaluating the situation, attempting to recognize when your thinking might be distorted, behaving rationally instead of reactively...
Thinking keeps me functioning. Thinking keeps me alive. When nothing feels real you can lose your sense of danger: walk into traffic, jump off a building, why not? If nothing is real, there are no consequences. If I can't trust my senses or intuition because they are sending distorted signals, what is a non-thinking solution?
Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 03, 2020, 10:23:29 AM
Quote from: Caracal on March 03, 2020, 09:08:15 AM
Trying to think your way out of mental health problems never works. I suspect academics are particularly prone to this, because collecting evidence and putting it together into a coherent picture is what we do for our job. I always think that if I can really understand what is happening then I can fix it, but all that does is send you deeper into the weeds. It seems clear that whatever is going on is causing you a lot of distress and having a significant impact on your ability to go about your life. You don't mention anything about feelings of harming yourself or anyone else, but if any of that is involved you should get immediate help. If that isn't the case, I hope you have been able to discuss all this with your SO. It seems like it would be a good thing if there was someone around who was keeping an eye on things.
Caracal, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I really don't understand this. If you don't think to solve a problem, what do you do?
Practically every therapeutic technique that has ever helped me involves some type of thought: evaluating the situation, attempting to recognize when your thinking might be distorted, behaving rationally instead of reactively...
Thinking keeps me functioning. Thinking keeps me alive. When nothing feels real you can lose your sense of danger: walk into traffic, jump off a building, why not? If nothing is real, there are no consequences. If I can't trust my senses or intuition because they are sending distorted signals, what is a non-thinking solution?
Keep thinking, but get a professional to assess your condition. I wondered if you are working while sleep-deprived. But you'll have an exam, and they'll ask you what they need to know.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 29, 2020, 04:33:03 PM
The other suggestion I found was ghosts. Those would be some pretty bored ghosts. Who haunts a grad student?
Well.
Who haunts a grad student? Bored ghosts?
Well. Um.
But, it wasn't me, promise.
Good luck sorting this out, wishing you brilliant, attentive, and insightful doctors who are able to give you sound medical advice.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 03, 2020, 10:23:29 AM
Quote from: Caracal on March 03, 2020, 09:08:15 AM
Trying to think your way out of mental health problems never works. I suspect academics are particularly prone to this, because collecting evidence and putting it together into a coherent picture is what we do for our job. I always think that if I can really understand what is happening then I can fix it, but all that does is send you deeper into the weeds. It seems clear that whatever is going on is causing you a lot of distress and having a significant impact on your ability to go about your life. You don't mention anything about feelings of harming yourself or anyone else, but if any of that is involved you should get immediate help. If that isn't the case, I hope you have been able to discuss all this with your SO. It seems like it would be a good thing if there was someone around who was keeping an eye on things.
Caracal, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I really don't understand this. If you don't think to solve a problem, what do you do?
Practically every therapeutic technique that has ever helped me involves some type of thought: evaluating the situation, attempting to recognize when your thinking might be distorted, behaving rationally instead of reactively...
Thinking keeps me functioning. Thinking keeps me alive. When nothing feels real you can lose your sense of danger: walk into traffic, jump off a building, why not? If nothing is real, there are no consequences. If I can't trust my senses or intuition because they are sending distorted signals, what is a non-thinking solution?
Right, and obviously there's a role for that. It is good that you understand that something is off and you are not perceiving things accurately. But it also seems like you are spinning out trying to figure this out in terms of these questions about what is normal and not and how you can understand reality. You aren't going to be able to figure this out because you don't have perspective and it sounds like trying to is just making the whole thing worse. I'm not sure when your appointment is, but I'd really urge you to try to get in to see someone sooner.
I just want to add that it may be something, or it may not. I remember a report about the number of people who "hear voices" but don't report it because they fear they're going crazy. It appears that a certain percentage of people tend to hear voices without any other symptoms, and that's that. Ten percent or something. I also encourage you to look for what has been called, justifiably, the most beautiful academic article ever written: Carlos E. Sluzki, "Saudades at the Edge of the Self and the Merits of 'Portable Families'," Transcultural Psychiatry 45 (2008), 379- (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1363461508094672 behind a paywall, but probably available via your library site). He starts out with how his cat has recently died and yet he keeps thinking he sees her, and goes on to explore related phenomena.
I'd say in the context of the depression you've discussed on other threads this is definitely something and not nothing. Delusions and hallucinations are not that uncommon in severe depression (these are called "psychotic features" which does NOT mean you have schizophrenia-- they generally resolve when the depression gets better). That doesn't mean panic, but it does mean go see your psychiatrist as soon as possible and give a complete and accurate description-- if it's easier, print your post here describing these phenomena and bring it with you.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 03, 2020, 08:40:21 AM
What would put something beyond "slightly weird"? Something beyond abnormally worrying about a normal thing? How can you tell what's a normal thing and what isn't?
What's making this different from what I've experienced before is that it's not so much a nebulous, hey-what-was-that sensation. I turn around fully expecting someone to be there because the touch feels so solid. The movement I see out of the corner of my eye is specifically like a person walking past (height, shape, arm-swinging motion). Yesterday I turned and saw a vague human outline in the center of my vision for a brief moment when I turned.
I followed the sound of footsteps and thought I saw a person's reflection off the window glass, but the area turned out to be empty.
Was having a conversation with my PI and a labmate and suddenly got a very strong feeling that the other people were fake, like in a simulation I couldn't exit. It became like watching a show rather than interacting with real people. Had a strong urge to touch them to see if they felt real; had enough presence of mind to not follow through with this impulse.
I didn't leave the lab until nearly 11pm because I felt scared to go outside. SO had to pick me up after his late-night class. He also seemed different and unreal somehow.
Dissociating is something I've experienced before, but recognizing it for what it is doesn't make it much more bearable.
To answer your question on your OP - you cannot. However, what you describe sounds like hallucinations, at least the tactile ones (the feeling of somebody tapping your shoulder).
When are you seeing your doctor? See if you could move the appointment up.
Only a professional can give you a real diagnosis, but it is obvious that your are going through something extremely unpleasant, and you need to get a diagnosis and treatment as soon as you can. Whatever is happening to you is severely limiting your capability to function, and, based on what you are posting here, is not going away. There are many conditions which can result in hallucinations and disassociation, and all of them need treatment of one type or another. Most likely it is your depression coupled with panic attacks, and being generally overwhelmed.
In the meantime, don't drive, avoid dealing with any lab equipment which could cause you harm if you dropped it, and, in general, try and take things easy until you see your doctor. I hope you have told your SO about what is going on with you. You may need to take a day or two off for some serious self-care, unless you think that being home alone would be worse for you.
I will echo Puget's advice - write all of this down now. Give it to your SO and bring it with you to the doctor's appointment.
A few more things:
A. change your therapist and your psychiatrist
B. your SO is there for you.
C. we're here for you
D. take care of yourself.
Quote
I didn't leave the lab until nearly 11pm because I felt scared to go outside. SO had to pick me up after his late-night class. He also seemed different and unreal somehow.
Sometimes it makes one more comfortable to have a label or a name for the ailment. Your first sentence sounds to me like panic attack. Your second sentence is derealization disorder. One can trigger the other. These are not insanity.
QuoteThinking keeps me functioning. Thinking keeps me alive. When nothing feels real you can lose your sense of danger: walk into traffic, jump off a building, why not? If nothing is real, there are no consequences. If I can't trust my senses or intuition because they are sending distorted signals, what is a non-thinking solution?
This part, especially, reading it again, is derealization. The sensation that nothing is real, everything that happens seems inevitable, preordained, the moment it happens, and also completely without purpose, is frightening. I know because I had it in my early twenties. You think and think because you are fighting the anxiety. The thinking is the problem, in a way. But it's not your fault. It was triggered. With me, all of this happened as a response to severe emotional trauma. The mind is making your world flat, without meaning, to protect itself, somehow. But you don't have to learn anything to get better. You need someone watching you, and most likely you'll be medicated. Medication, properly prescribed, is your friend.
And so is time. For me it was valium. But that was ages ago. They have better things now. Feel free to send private message if that helps. I am not professional, just a patient.
P. S. At the same time, don't let the labels, e.g. major depression, derealization, depersonalization, panic attack, concern you too much. They are constructs; they evolve - approximate things. No two of us are alike!
It could also be a Vertigo/inner ear/balance issue
Hallucinations are very common. Many mentally healthy people have hallucinations. Obviously it can become a problem if it causes distress, affects your life in negative ways, or is accompanied by other troubling symptoms that might indicate something pathological going on. But you may just be normal.
Two great articles that give a layperson's overview of the research on this:
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/10/hallucinations-hearing-voices-reality-debate/571819/
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/06/psychics-hearing-voices/531582/
Get checked out, but don't let people (including medical professionals) overreact if these aren't disrupting your life in a significant way.
"Hallucinations" covers all sorts of phenomena. There's plenty of research on auditory hallucinations -- "hearing voices."
The OP's experience sounds very different from that. Kinaesthetic I guess. It reminds me a little of some "phantom limb" experience.
I'm generally one to wait to see if problems go away rather than see a doctor, so long as they are not disabling me. But if you have good health insurance, I'd be inclined to get it checked out.
As to physicians overreacting, during the ordeal I described above, one doctor prescribed me 100 mg of thorazine and sent me on my way. Another doctor, later said, 'that's a crazy high dose for a young man of your weight (120 lb). That's irresponsible.' Then another doctor put me on stelazine. He had asked me if I heard voices. I said no then later, yes. I wasn't sure. My college roommate said 'you sure sleep a lot.' Always, remember you can get second or third opinion. You know what they call the guy who graduated last in his class? 'Doctor.'
At the same time, reading some of smallcleanrat's posts on other threads, I see there is another issue. Smallcleanrat, you are apparently in frequent contact with your parents. It seems to me they are concerned but also meddlesome and second-guessing. And they have funny attitudes about the use of medication, which you recognize. So maybe handle this without involving them? If they're kept in the background, maybe you can think and decide better.
Folks, I'm sure you're well-intentioned, but the OP has reported serious depression and self-harm elsewhere on the fora-- please stop minimizing and suggesting waiting to go to the doctor-- that is not the situation here, and the OP needs to see her psychiatrist ASAP.
Quote from: Puget on March 05, 2020, 06:14:37 AM
Folks, I'm sure you're well-intentioned, but the OP has reported serious depression and self-harm elsewhere on the fora-- please stop minimizing and suggesting waiting to go to the doctor-- that is not the situation here, and the OP needs to see her psychiatrist ASAP.
I wasn't aware of that background. OP: sounds like this could be a part of something bigger. I'm glad you're reaching out to caring strangers on the internet, but please also see a doctor ASAP.
When I say 'time is your friend' I mean there is light at the end of the tunnel. My experience with derealization was that the belief that the world was no longer real never became fact to me. There was always the possibility that the world was still real and some shift had occurred in my experience of it. That's why there is so much thinking and analyzing going on. Sure enough, things got back to normal. But it did take a lot of therapy and some time.
Family members can also find support groups if they are open to it. Like, a parent of someone who is getting treatment for mental health could find a support group to meet others/ help them through it. They may not be too old for more education.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 03, 2020, 10:23:29 AM
Quote from: Caracal on March 03, 2020, 09:08:15 AM
Trying to think your way out of mental health problems never works. I suspect academics are particularly prone to this, because collecting evidence and putting it together into a coherent picture is what we do for our job. I always think that if I can really understand what is happening then I can fix it, but all that does is send you deeper into the weeds. It seems clear that whatever is going on is causing you a lot of distress and having a significant impact on your ability to go about your life. You don't mention anything about feelings of harming yourself or anyone else, but if any of that is involved you should get immediate help. If that isn't the case, I hope you have been able to discuss all this with your SO. It seems like it would be a good thing if there was someone around who was keeping an eye on things.
Caracal, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I really don't understand this. If you don't think to solve a problem, what do you do?
Practically every therapeutic technique that has ever helped me involves some type of thought: evaluating the situation, attempting to recognize when your thinking might be distorted, behaving rationally instead of reactively...
Thinking keeps me functioning. Thinking keeps me alive. When nothing feels real you can lose your sense of danger: walk into traffic, jump off a building, why not? If nothing is real, there are no consequences. If I can't trust my senses or intuition because they are sending distorted signals, what is a non-thinking solution?
There's an element of truth in the fact that one's mentality is involved in healing in these situations: one does need to learn to see patterns in ones thinking and action, and figure out different pathways of interpretation and response. So I agree that there's definitely a thinking part in the work needed to do to avoid harm, including self-harm.
But from my experience, the greater issue is in finding out how to transcend past experiences which have been unhelpful or harmful--whether physically or psychologically, or both--and transform ones interpretive responses and insights towards more healthy patterns of believing, thinking, and acting.
That's like a systems problem: "No system knows what it doesn't know," as someone told me once.
So while one definitely wants to keep thinking--it's one of the things that separate us from the plankton (I think...or maybe we've discovered that they think, too? :--})--part of that thinking has by definition to be done with others trained in how to help you spot your patterns and devise ways out of the thicket of self-recrimination, self-blame, and self-punishment.
It's really hard work (I dealt with this after leaving my abusive marriage long ago) and I found I just didn't have the parallax to see myself in a different way than I already saw myself. That systems thing, again. I'd go 'round and 'round trying to think my way out of it--and I couldn't.
I needed another person's trained vision, their support as I figured out what to do about what I had experienced that had injured my sense of self, and how to cope with things like people telling me I should just "forgive and go back to him" (yes, we were at the tail end of that era then).
I came to realize I could forgive, and did, to the extent that I dismissed the other person's hold on me, and stopped seeking a way to exact further communication or caring from them--but that without their apology (or in more ritualized religious terms, their repentance) and an amendment of life (which can only be seen over a longer period of time) they had no further call on me for engagement in the relationship, and no further right to rent space in my brain.
But again, that's hard work, and I couldn't have done it without support and the input of others (some group work, some individual work, was what I found most helpful) and I maintain a circle of friends with whom I stay in communication to keep on track and stay centered around the positives in life.
I also discovered the themes of transcendence and transformation are not only operant in the teachings from my own religious background (I call myself a peripatetic ecumenical charismatic Christian Episcopalian, and I work in interfaith settings beyond those of Christianity as well): they appear in many other religious systems throughout the world, either overtly or as elements to be discovered within their thematic and narrative texts.
So, again, there is an element of thinking, but it's more about finding the will to enact alternative approaches to one's difficulties, and finding reinforcement for those approaches and help in developing the vision to see them--which have to come from others, especially trained others.
I know you know that because you've been trying so very hard to get this help and you've found some serious (idiotic, in the cases you've most recently described) roadblocks to getting the help you're seeking.
That's maybe a roundabout way of saying that there is caring and support for you here, and a nearly univocal agreement with your basic assessment, that you need help, and you deserve to be helped, and it sounds as if you will make good use of that help--so you can learn in a supported and affirmative way to actualize your best instincts and abilities to thrive throughout your life.
M.
Quote from: hungry_ghost on March 03, 2020, 10:55:34 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 29, 2020, 04:33:03 PM
The other suggestion I found was ghosts. Those would be some pretty bored ghosts. Who haunts a grad student?
Well.
Who haunts a grad student? Bored ghosts?
Well. Um.
But, it wasn't me, promise.
Good luck sorting this out, wishing you brilliant, attentive, and insightful doctors who are able to give you sound medical advice.
hungry_ghost, thanks for making me smile.
Quote from: Caracal on March 03, 2020, 12:33:34 PM
You aren't going to be able to figure this out because you don't have perspective and it sounds like trying to is just making the whole thing worse. I'm not sure when your appointment is, but I'd really urge you to try to get in to see someone sooner.
Fair point.
Quote from: Hegemony on March 03, 2020, 03:19:35 PM
I just want to add that it may be something, or it may not. I remember a report about the number of people who "hear voices" but don't report it because they fear they're going crazy. It appears that a certain percentage of people tend to hear voices without any other symptoms, and that's that. Ten percent or something. I also encourage you to look for what has been called, justifiably, the most beautiful academic article ever written: Carlos E. Sluzki, "Saudades at the Edge of the Self and the Merits of 'Portable Families'," Transcultural Psychiatry 45 (2008), 379- (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1363461508094672 behind a paywall, but probably available via your library site). He starts out with how his cat has recently died and yet he keeps thinking he sees her, and goes on to explore related phenomena.
Thanks for the article, Hegemony. I've heard voices before, but I never really worried about it much except for the few times the voices were hostile. I think what bothers me about the new stuff is that it's hard to ignore when you think someone is trying to get your attention by touching you or someone is right beside you. Earlier this morning, I saw one of the peripheral people raise an arm and make a throwing motion; I flinched, couldn't help it, thought I was about to get hit with something. I wouldn't mind seeing a dead pet.
Quote from: Puget on March 03, 2020, 03:26:02 PM
I'd say in the context of the depression you've discussed on other threads this is definitely something and not nothing. Delusions and hallucinations are not that uncommon in severe depression (these are called "psychotic features" which does NOT mean you have schizophrenia-- they generally resolve when the depression gets better). That doesn't mean panic, but it does mean go see your psychiatrist as soon as possible and give a complete and accurate description-- if it's easier, print your post here describing these phenomena and bring it with you.
I've seen in my medical records there is a prior diagnosis of "affective psychosis". But I don't know when or why that was added to my file. If I asked for my full records, do you think they would have this info? I think I've had delusions while depressed before, but I can't remember if I ever described them to a doctor.
mouseman, thank you for the words of support.
mahagonny, if you are comfortable with it, would you mind sharing more about your experience with dissociation (post or PM, whatever feels best)? I've experienced extremely long bouts and it can make life feel truly intolerable. I would love to hear about whatever may have helped you break free.
bopper, I do have some vestibular issues so it is certainly possible that the feelings of being pushed are related.
I started Day 1 of my outpatient program today. Mentioned the unusual sensory experiences. Psychiatrist's response: "Hmm...those don't sound like
typical hallucinations...maybe it's related to your migraines." Then he shrugged and moved on. I guess he doesn't see it as a high priority.
Maybe I should try to get a referral to a neurologist to ask if this could be related to migraine aura (I did have a pretty bad one this week; lasted 2 days, nauseous and vomiting). Haven't been to one in a while; the last neurologist I saw told me not to bother coming back: "There's no cure; I can't do anything for you. You just have to learn to live with it. Lots of people do."
Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 05, 2020, 09:01:10 PM
mahagonny, if you are comfortable with it, would you mind sharing more about your experience with dissociation (post or PM, whatever feels best)? I've experienced extremely long bouts and it can make life feel truly intolerable. I would love to hear about whatever may have helped you break free.
That's not the tone I was expecting. If you would love anything, you're not in the trouble I thought you were in. i envisioned someone in a state of prolonged anxiety, fear, and with thoughts of serious self harm or suicide, and flat affect (mood), like anhedonia. I am glad you're feeling better. We are both fine now. Maybe we'll talk about fishing some time. Cheers, over and out
Quote from: mahagonny on March 05, 2020, 09:20:38 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 05, 2020, 09:01:10 PM
mahagonny, if you are comfortable with it, would you mind sharing more about your experience with dissociation (post or PM, whatever feels best)? I've experienced extremely long bouts and it can make life feel truly intolerable. I would love to hear about whatever may have helped you break free.
That's not the tone I was expecting. If you would love anything, you're not in the trouble I thought you were in. i envisioned someone in a state of prolonged anxiety, fear, and with thoughts of serious self harm or suicide, and flat affect (mood), like anhedonia. I am glad you're feeling better. We are both fine now. Maybe we'll talk about fishing some time. Cheers, over and out
Huh? I was using "I would love to" as an expression of wanting to hear about your experience.
Can't tell if I offended or annoyed you, but if I did I'm sorry.
Quote from: Puget on March 05, 2020, 06:14:37 AM
Folks, I'm sure you're well-intentioned, but the OP has reported serious depression and self-harm elsewhere on the fora-- please stop minimizing and suggesting waiting to go to the doctor-- that is not the situation here, and the OP needs to see her psychiatrist ASAP.
I doubt it. Then again...
Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 05, 2020, 09:01:10 PM
I started Day 1 of my outpatient program today. Mentioned the unusual sensory experiences. Psychiatrist's response: "Hmm...those don't sound like typical hallucinations...maybe it's related to your migraines." Then he shrugged and moved on. I guess he doesn't see it as a high priority.
Maybe I should try to get a referral to a neurologist to ask if this could be related to migraine aura (I did have a pretty bad one this week; lasted 2 days, nauseous and vomiting). Haven't been to one in a while; the last neurologist I saw told me not to bother coming back: "There's no cure; I can't do anything for you. You just have to learn to live with it. Lots of people do."
Wait, did you describe the stuff you described to us to him? Voices? Wandering around trying to find things that didn't seem to be there? Agitation and fear about these things? What is the outpatient program for? This seems off. For comparison, I saw a psychiatrist a while ago because my anxiety had been spiking and I wanted to see if a different drug regimen would help (it has) and even though he said right from the start that what I was describing sounded pretty clearly like manifestations of anxiety, he still asked me a battery of questions just to make sure that there wasn't anything more serious going on.
Quote from: mahagonny on March 05, 2020, 09:42:11 PM
Quote from: Puget on March 05, 2020, 06:14:37 AM
Folks, I'm sure you're well-intentioned, but the OP has reported serious depression and self-harm elsewhere on the fora-- please stop minimizing and suggesting waiting to go to the doctor-- that is not the situation here, and the OP needs to see her psychiatrist ASAP.
I doubt it. Then again...
mahagonny, I'm not sure what you mean by this comment, especially "Then again..." But I get the sense that I pissed you off somehow without meaning to; that you think I was misrepresenting my situation? I don't know exactly, but I never intended any of that. I've been posting my experiences as they are; I've felt stuck and I was desperate for advice and to hear about similar experiences other people have had (especially how they coped). I really appreciated your earlier posts on this thread; I felt pretty awful when I read your latest posts. I'm sorry if I said anything offensive.
Quote from: Caracal on March 06, 2020, 07:29:05 AM
Wait, did you describe the stuff you described to us to him? Voices? Wandering around trying to find things that didn't seem to be there? Agitation and fear about these things? What is the outpatient program for? This seems off. For comparison, I saw a psychiatrist a while ago because my anxiety had been spiking and I wanted to see if a different drug regimen would help (it has) and even though he said right from the start that what I was describing sounded pretty clearly like manifestations of anxiety, he still asked me a battery of questions just to make sure that there wasn't anything more serious going on.
I did describe being startled by the perceived movement and being scared enough not to leave the building until my SO could come get me. I also described trying to follow the footsteps and the person I thought I glimpsed in a reflection. He frowned, wrote it all down and shrugged. Said it sounds more like an illusion than a hallucination, interpreting actual sensory input incorrectly rather than internally generating sensations. I can see the possibility for the corner-of-the-eye stuff, but why am I seeing illusions now and not all the previous years of my life?. That explanation doesn't seem as good a fit for the tap-on-the-shoulder stuff. Anyway, his best explanation at moment is that it's most likely migraine-related. He thought it might be worth seeing a new neurologist because there have been a lot of treatment options developed in recent years.
Some doctors are far more thorough than others when it comes to attempting to rule out other possible causes for symptoms. I have had a few like that, but the majority I've met don't ask a lot of questions. In the past, I answered "I'm not sure" to questions about whether I've heard voices, because I've had experiences like I've described up-thread, but wasn't sure if that was what they were talking about. No one ever stopped and asked me to elaborate; they just said "ok", ticked some box on a form, and moved on through the questionnaire.
I was referred to the outpatient program because of the persistent self-harm and suicidal urges which are mostly in the form of intrusive thoughts and images. There are therapy groups covering different issues and ways of coping with distress. I'm to go several times a week for the next few weeks. There are weekly check-ins with the psychiatrist and a case manager who helps with setting therapy goals.
I'm glad you're starting treatment!
First off, please ignore mahagonny. You didn't say anything wrong and you're not responsible for his(?) bizarre miss-interpretation of your perfectly ordinary phrasing. I have compassion for whatever is causing him to behave this way toward others, but you have nothing to apologize for.
The psychiatrist honestly sounds like a bit of dud. Caveat that I'm not a clinician, just a clinical researcher, but in the hoofbeats being horses metaphor here horses is psychotic features of depression (which is all that "affective psychosis" means, so that's probably why it was in your notes), not some neurological condition. I'd persist in telling various people in your treatment program exactly what you are experiencing and how distressing it is until someone takes you seriously.
Has anyone ever done a careful differential diagnosis for you -- i.e., asked you a bunch of questions in a semi-structured interview format? (The most common form of this is called the SCID). The exact label isn't that important in that individual people don't fit neatly into diagnostic boxes, but I get the sense with your analytic mind it might make it easier to cope if you felt like you had a clear picture of what's going on for you and could understand the mechanisms and how everything is related.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 06, 2020, 06:20:12 PM
mahagonny, I'm not sure what you mean by this comment, especially "Then again..." But I get the sense that I pissed you off somehow without meaning to; that you think I was misrepresenting my situation?
Not pissed off at all. I am sorry. I probably assumed something not in evidence or took a guess. It's harder to figure things out than face to face. Take care.
Quote from: Puget on March 06, 2020, 08:06:40 PM
I'd persist in telling various people in your treatment program exactly what you are experiencing and how distressing it is until someone takes you seriously.
Has anyone ever done a careful differential diagnosis for you -- i.e., asked you a bunch of questions in a semi-structured interview format? (The most common form of this is called the SCID). The exact label isn't that important in that individual people don't fit neatly into diagnostic boxes, but I get the sense with your analytic mind it might make it easier to cope if you felt like you had a clear picture of what's going on for you and could understand the mechanisms and how everything is related.
I will definitely keep bringing it up; I have noticed I sometimes have to mention something 3-4 times before this psychiatrist will try to address it. I've stuck with him because he was the first in a very long time to actually help me; without him, I would not have regained enough functionality to start school.
I believe I did have some type of in depth interview such as you describe. I recall an interview and a paper test; I think it was to diagnose personality disorders, but I'm not sure. This would have been over a decade ago when I got to a point where I couldn't function and was essentially forced into the hospital ("You can go voluntarily or we can send the police to make you go involuntarily; those are your only options"). I don't recall if I ever received any papers or had anyone explain the results to me in depth. Memories of those times are jumbled.
I'm going back to the clinic tomorrow. Will update as things progress. Didn't have any of the weird sensory experiences yesterday or today; just feeling pretty shut down and out of it.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on March 08, 2020, 04:05:28 PM
Quote from: Puget on March 06, 2020, 08:06:40 PM
I'd persist in telling various people in your treatment program exactly what you are experiencing and how distressing it is until someone takes you seriously.
Has anyone ever done a careful differential diagnosis for you -- i.e., asked you a bunch of questions in a semi-structured interview format? (The most common form of this is called the SCID). The exact label isn't that important in that individual people don't fit neatly into diagnostic boxes, but I get the sense with your analytic mind it might make it easier to cope if you felt like you had a clear picture of what's going on for you and could understand the mechanisms and how everything is related.
I will definitely keep bringing it up; I have noticed I sometimes have to mention something 3-4 times before this psychiatrist will try to address it. I've stuck with him because he was the first in a very long time to actually help me; without him, I would not have regained enough functionality to start school.
I believe I did have some type of in depth interview such as you describe. I recall an interview and a paper test; I think it was to diagnose personality disorders, but I'm not sure. This would have been over a decade ago when I got to a point where I couldn't function and was essentially forced into the hospital ("You can go voluntarily or we can send the police to make you go involuntarily; those are your only options"). I don't recall if I ever received any papers or had anyone explain the results to me in depth. Memories of those times are jumbled.
I'm going back to the clinic tomorrow. Will update as things progress. Didn't have any of the weird sensory experiences yesterday or today; just feeling pretty shut down and out of it.
Don't be afraid to ask for a second opinion from another psychiatrist or psychologist-- it's great he was able to help you but if he's not listening to what you have to say that's a real problem.
If you do want to go after a proper differential diagnosis-- Does your university or one nearby have a clinical psych PhD program? They will have a training clinic where well-supervised PhD candidates who are trained in rigorous assessment can do a diagnostic interview correctly. Usually, they have a sliding scale fee structure and discounted or even free services for students.
I hate to have to say it, and may even get flamed for it, but I'll say it anyway.
Females usually DO have to repeat things two or three (or ten or twenty) times before they're listened to/taken seriously/heeded.
Especially if the one who's supposed to be listening is a) empowered over you, b) male, or c) both.
It's one of the most maddening things in the world, but that's the way it is.
Keep at it....and good for you for going and following through.
M.
I really liked Sana Goldberg's How to Be a Patient. It recommends basically being a pain in the ass with doctors until you get the care you need. She talks especially about how doctors ignore or undertreat some groups, like women.
Quote from: Puget on March 08, 2020, 04:46:56 PM
If you do want to go after a proper differential diagnosis-- Does your university or one nearby have a clinical psych PhD program? They will have a training clinic where well-supervised PhD candidates who are trained in rigorous assessment can do a diagnostic interview correctly. Usually, they have a sliding scale fee structure and discounted or even free services for students.
I hadn't thought about this before. I checked the website for the one at my university; even with a student discount it looks like it would still be several hundred dollars. I'll keep the possibility in mind though. I think there are a lot of ways I present differently from ten years ago. Results of a thorough assessment might be different as well.
Quote from: mamselle on March 08, 2020, 05:08:44 PM
I hate to have to say it, and may even get flamed for it, but I'll say it anyway.
Females usually DO have to repeat things two or three (or ten or twenty) times before they're listened to/taken seriously/heeded.
Especially if the one who's supposed to be listening is a) empowered over you, b) male, or c) both.
It's one of the most maddening things in the world, but that's the way it is.
Keep at it....and good for you for going and following through.
M.
My SO was outraged and astounded at how often I was treated dismissively by a doctor. There have been times he's accompanied me to appointments when I've felt too sick and exhausted to be assertive, and it does seem to help get me more attention. Now every time I come home discouraged about something he asks, "Do you need me to yell at someone? Because, if it gets you what you need, I certainly will."
The last neurologist I saw didn't look at me once during my entire (5-minute) appointment. I had to wait three months to get in to see him, and the bus ride was 2 hours one way. To be dismissed after 5 minutes and told there was nothing to be done was devastating. At the time, I was unemployed, bedridden or curled up on the floor more days than not, and not at all certain I had any future worth striving for. I lay on a bench outside the medical center in utter despair. Took a while to gather up the will and energy to get up and bus home.
I think it doesn't help that so many of my issues are literally "in my head" (i.e. neurological or psychiatric).
I have two suggestions. First, have SO start coming to the appointments with you. He can be your back up advocate, even if all he does is glower. He sounds like a keeper to me.
Second, start a written document of all your symptoms. When I had some medical issues last year I wrote my PCP a three page typed letter detailing my issues. The doctor called me with a near immediate appointment. At the appointment, the doctor had my letter as a print out and we went through it point by point. It was probably the best doctors appointment I've ever had in terms of being thorough.
I think you are dealing with the trifecta thank leads to doctors ignoring you. Being female, being a scientist, and having symptoms that require some empathy. I can't tell you the number of MDs who are scared to diagnose me with anything once they learn that my PhD is in a medically oriented field.
Hang in there and keep talking with us. We are on your side!
Quote from: mythbuster on March 09, 2020, 07:55:23 PM
I have two suggestions. First, have SO start coming to the appointments with you. He can be your back up advocate, even if all he does is glower. He sounds like a keeper to me.
Second, start a written document of all your symptoms. When I had some medical issues last year I wrote my PCP a three page typed letter detailing my issues. The doctor called me with a near immediate appointment. At the appointment, the doctor had my letter as a print out and we went through it point by point. It was probably the best doctors appointment I've ever had in terms of being thorough.
I think you are dealing with the trifecta thank leads to doctors ignoring you. Being female, being a scientist, and having symptoms that require some empathy. I can't tell you the number of MDs who are scared to diagnose me with anything once they learn that my PhD is in a medically oriented field.
Hang in there and keep talking with us. We are on your side!
Thanks, mythbuster.
SO comes with me whenever I feel I especially need support, but it's not practical for him to come with me to every appointment because of his work schedule. Days he has come with me, he's used his PTO days. But it's been nice to know I've got backup if I need it.
I did try bringing a document of symptoms with me to doctor visits, since symptoms would change on me and I was getting so many different responses from different doctors. Most would take the paper, give it a quick glance (quick enough that I doubt they actually read much), then put it aside and never refer to it again. I liked this psychiatrist because he actually read what I had written (even said it was very helpful and a good idea) and seemed to be paying attention to what I was telling him when I first met with him.
I never even considered that being a scientist would affect the way I was treated by a doctor. Why would that be?
Some wouldn't.
The orthopedist I've seen for my foot seems to enjoy showing me my x-rays and discussing the injuries in proper anatomical terminology. (Our dance major classes included anatomy/kinesiology, and I had an exigent 10th grade biology teacher who made us memorize Grey's Anatomy--the book, the TV show hadn't come out then...) I can ask him questions and get straight, bemused, intelligent, respectful answers, which I'm enjoying (foot issues aside).
But others...the ones that are maybe less self-assured or have their own control issues....They're afraid you might either know more, or have more recent info, about their own specialty, or that you might start talking with them from the clinical/lab side of things, or questioning them about things they can't answer, instead of letting them "be the doctor."
Or some, whether burnt-out, operating at the Peter-principle-edges of their own competence, or lazy, are just past registering anything much beyond the basics.
They're so overwhelmed you could say, "While my foot was in the cast, it turned orange with pink stripes, which I thought was kind of cool," and they'd say, "Hmmmm....really?" and keep going.
MD's are people, they're not really gods or goddesses, and their occupation has some odd, unexpected Achilles' heels. (Sorry, I seem to keep talking about pedal anatomy...) I've worked at two different hospitals and several pharmas with some really excellent ones, and some weird, awful ones.
But, yeah, that can be one of their blind spots/tone deaf ranges/hot buttons.
M.
ETA: ...and +1/Chime to Mythbuster! (Especially about SO being a keeper!)