I'm sure you've visited a coffee shop and, after making your order with a credit card, been asked to leave a tip. You've probably had this experience at some other sorts of establishments too, such as a restaurant where you order at the counter and bus your own table, or even a convenience store (or even an automated convenience store with no human workers - perhaps at the Newark Airport). It seems that tipping has gone from something reserved for a few workers with very low minimum wages, such as bartenders and waiters, to something that is solicited and increasingly expected for a host of transactions. And even though many customers appear not to like this,* trendy magazines have declared that the rules of tipping have changed.**
So what do you say? Do you embrace these new tipping norms or reject them - whether on principle or out of frugality?
* https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/tipping-control-consumers-96609175
** https://www.thecut.com/article/tipping-rules-etiquette-rules.html#tipping
I have stopped going to stores that expect me to tip without even providing table service. I can afford tipping, but I am increasingly frustrated that I am expected to work my butt off and spend my hard-earned $$$ on tipping workers at stores that do not provide any actual service. To this end, I have simply stopped going to such stores. Store owners should rather pay their employees higher salaries instead of expecting customers to subsidize the salaries they pay.
PS: In the same manner, I would like my university to ask students to tip me for my service at the end of the semester.
Now that I can afford it I tip everywhere and with abandon. Even if some of the workers aren't making the ridiculous "tips will make up for ridiculously low hourly wages" rate, they generally aren't making much on an objective scale. And while I agree it would be better if employers payed their employees a reasonable amount, that's clearly not going to happen. So I make the calculation that a dollar tip on a coffee might mean a lot to the barista, and the difference between a $3 and $4 coffee means basically nothing to me and tip the dollar.
And I know that I speak from a place of privilege and don't think that people who can't afford tipping in this way need to follow my lead.
Tipping is a convention. What the firms which are trying to slide into the convention are trying to do is have customers sign the checks for wages instead of the employers, of course, as everyone realizes. However, total wages won't change -- if total payments get high, more people are attracted to such jobs and the employer payment goes down. The cost of labor -- tip or non-tip -- goes into the price paid for the service offered.
Tipping does allow free riders, so some customers benefit, but the average employee in such activities is not hurt, for low tipping reduces employment, pushing up the part of the wage paid by the employer.
In the big scheme of things, it doesn't matter whether I tip or not.
Quote from: dismalist on February 16, 2023, 05:42:06 PM
The cost of labor -- tip or non-tip -- goes into the price paid for the service offered.
That is exactly my argument. If you talk to a business owner though, they will tell you that paying their employees $2-3 more per hour will reduce their profit margin from 50% to 35% or so. These profit margins are still crazy high. So the owner cares about their money, does not pay their employees well enough, and asks customers to pay for the service offered through the price they pay at the counter, but also contribute to the employee's salary, so that the business owner can maintain their ridiculously high profit margins.
The other thing I have noticed is that typically non-chain businesses ask you to tip. Chain businesses usually do not ask you to tip, which is funny since store owners have to pay (on top of everything else) a royalty to the corporate offices for every dollar they make. So, I would personally think it would be in their best interest to ask you to tip, so that they pay their employees even less. Maybe corporate does not allow tipping. Who knows?
PS: In the affluent locations of California, I have been to a hair saloon, where the owner of the salon also works there in addition to having several other employees. Even the owner of the saloon was expecting to tip her. Yes, the owner of the salon was expecting a tip for her own salary. She was telling me that while cutting my hair and also telling me that her business is worth a million dollars because it is in the Bay Area... so much ridiculous greediness.
A number of businesses disallow tipping. I rarely see it outside of anything to do with food..maybe a barber. Some people tip mechanics I guess, but I never have.
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 17, 2023, 05:50:13 AM
A number of businesses disallow tipping. I rarely see it outside of anything to do with food..maybe a barber. Some people tip mechanics I guess, but I never have.
It is much more than food: food, coffee, bars, barber shops, hair salons, uber/lyft, other delivery services (including groceries), beauty salons. Basically, any job where the employer does not want to pay a living wage (or they pay a living wage but the employee wants more than that). I suggest universities start doing that for faculty as well.
Quote from: research_prof on February 17, 2023, 05:59:18 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 17, 2023, 05:50:13 AM
A number of businesses disallow tipping. I rarely see it outside of anything to do with food..maybe a barber. Some people tip mechanics I guess, but I never have.
It is much more than food: food, coffee, bars, barber shops, hair salons, uber/lyft, other delivery services (including groceries), beauty salons. Basically, any job where the employer does not want to pay a living wage (or they pay a living wage but the employee wants more than that). I suggest universities start doing that for faculty as well.
Pretty much this. Tipping should be optional.
Quote from: research_prof on February 17, 2023, 05:59:18 AM
Basically, any job where the employer does not want to pay a living wage (or they pay a living wage but the employee wants more than that). I suggest universities start doing that for faculty as well.
I should start putting a link for Venmo contributions in my email signature.
In recent years, students have been sending me $25 Amazon / Starbucks cards on final exam day. I don't feel comfortable accepting them (I forward them to our office admin to use). Maybe I'd feel different if I added a Cashapp to my syllabus.
I tip restaurant, bakery, barber. I don't tip fast food style places — around here, such places use Apple Pay, so I assume that's "extra" gratuity.
Quote from: onthefringe on February 16, 2023, 05:08:50 PM
Now that I can afford it I tip everywhere and with abandon. Even if some of the workers aren't making the ridiculous "tips will make up for ridiculously low hourly wages" rate, they generally aren't making much on an objective scale. And while I agree it would be better if employers payed their employees a reasonable amount, that's clearly not going to happen. So I make the calculation that a dollar tip on a coffee might mean a lot to the barista, and the difference between a $3 and $4 coffee means basically nothing to me and tip the dollar.
And I know that I speak from a place of privilege and don't think that people who can't afford tipping in this way need to follow my lead.
^ This. ^
Quote from: ciao_yall on February 17, 2023, 08:49:40 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on February 16, 2023, 05:08:50 PM
Now that I can afford it I tip everywhere and with abandon. Even if some of the workers aren't making the ridiculous "tips will make up for ridiculously low hourly wages" rate, they generally aren't making much on an objective scale. And while I agree it would be better if employers payed their employees a reasonable amount, that's clearly not going to happen. So I make the calculation that a dollar tip on a coffee might mean a lot to the barista, and the difference between a $3 and $4 coffee means basically nothing to me and tip the dollar.
And I know that I speak from a place of privilege and don't think that people who can't afford tipping in this way need to follow my lead.
^ This. ^
If I'm out and about, have the extra cash and can afford to get a coffee, then I'll tip. I've really clamped down on unnecessary spending, so I'm not buying a lot of coffees, etc. I recognize that I also come from a place of privilege, but at this point, I can't be as free with my cash as I would like to be.
To the extent that I can, I try to pay in cash.
I tend to tip taxis (including Ubers, etc), cleaners at hotels, and waiters. These I try to leave in cash and not via the card, even if I pay my bill with a card. I try to tip waiters about 20-25 per cent.
I will tip at a coffee shop if there is some reason to (a complicated order, if it is Thanksgiving, or if I stay there a long time.
For a long time, my barber owned his own shop and I didn't tip. Now he is renting a seat at somebody else's shop, so I tip him.
I wouldn't tip my auto mechanic unless there was something unusual.
It used to be that the Newark airport was a dump, but it had inexpensive fast food. Now it is much nicer, but it costs $20 for a burger and you have to wait forever (because the electronic cashiers can take orders faster than the humans can cook them).
Sometimes students give a present at the end of the semester. Last year one student gave me a bunch of dry erase markers (!). But I would not accept a "tip" from a student. For me tipping is a necessary evil. Necessary because without it many people would be unable to live. Evil because it creates a sense of subservience and comes from feudalism. In a civilized society everybody would be paid decently and tipping would be insulting. But we don't live in a civilized society, so I tip when necessary.
Quote from: jerseyjay on February 17, 2023, 09:03:29 AM
Evil because it creates a sense of subservience and comes from feudalism. In a civilized society everybody would be paid decently and tipping would be insulting.
Since no-one has raised this issue yet, I will.
Part of the argument for tipping is that it fits in places where
quality of service can vary, so it
promotes top-notch service. (If all wait staff got paid the same, the slackers would get as much as the hard workers without it.) By that logic, tipping could apply to
all kinds of things, including professional services.
Regarding the "living wage" argument, it's out of whack in high end establishments. For Valentine's Day, my SO and I were at a nice place for about 1.5 hours. Our server had several tables, which would have all made about the same demands. (For the occasion, there was a prix fixe menu.) Our bill of about $200 Cdn would mean a tip of $30 (at 15%) for
just our table. If our server handled 4 or 5 tables in that time (meaning about 20 minutes per table, which is probably about right), that means that 1 1/2 hours would generate $120 in tips alone, or a rate of $80 per hour. That's a pretty darn good "living wage".
(FWIW, I typically tip about 15%.)
Pretty much the only place where I tip is at restaurants where they bring you things and check on you during your meal. Which I very seldom go to. Except for that and getting my hair cut, I never go anywhere that tipping is considered common. And most of my haircutting over the years has been by owner-operators who didn't have any employees. When I tip in restaurants I try to be generous, and to use cash, since I've heard that gratuities included on credit card payments are often treated as extra profit and don't actually reach the staff that customers think they're rewarding.
The expectation that customers, as opposed to employers, should be expected to pay the wait-staff's wages seems awfully archaic, and not in a good way. It's not hard to think of all sorts of abuses and inequalities that a system like that can lend itself to, quite apart from being annoying to customers.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 17, 2023, 09:27:28 AM
Quote from: jerseyjay on February 17, 2023, 09:03:29 AM
Evil because it creates a sense of subservience and comes from feudalism. In a civilized society everybody would be paid decently and tipping would be insulting.
Since no-one has raised this issue yet, I will.
Part of the argument for tipping is that it fits in places where quality of service can vary, so it promotes top-notch service. (If all wait staff got paid the same, the slackers would get as much as the hard workers without it.) By that logic, tipping could apply to all kinds of things, including professional services.
Regarding the "living wage" argument, it's out of whack in high end establishments. For Valentine's Day, my SO and I were at a nice place for about 1.5 hours. Our server had several tables, which would have all made about the same demands. (For the occasion, there was a prix fixe menu.) Our bill of about $200 Cdn would mean a tip of $30 (at 15%) for just our table. If our server handled 4 or 5 tables in that time (meaning about 20 minutes per table, which is probably about right), that means that 1 1/2 hours would generate $120 in tips alone, or a rate of $80 per hour. That's a pretty darn good "living wage".
(FWIW, I typically tip about 15%.)
It's truly fascinating. Google 'tipping" or "origins of tipping" and the earliest one comes up with is 17th century English pubs. That's clearly for rewarding quality: It is so easy to shirk in delivering food -- no one will ever know except the customer! So, tipping is an efficient way of monitoring.
Other stories are about lord-serf relationships. But that, too, is about rewarding quality, for, the serfs, owing some labor days on the lord's land in return for their use rights of the land, had plenty of opportunity to shirk. Otherwise, if this is a power relationship, why tip at all?
Then it was seen in mid-19th century Europe, but only in those activities in which only the customer can monitor, such as inns, and brought back to the States. It was then said, after the Civil War, that tipping was racist on account freedmen were paid by tipping -- but, yes, only in activities that require and are amenable to monitoring by the customer!
There is one important point neglected in works about tipping: Before the use of credit cards, the size of tips given in cash could be safely hidden from taxation. Thus, employer and employee were getting a government subsidy through the tax code. This is more risky with tips on credit cards.
The fundamental economic points are two:
quality is higher with tipping, and [ii] the average wage is not determined by how much you tip. How much one tips on average only determines which part of the check for the employee's wage is signed by the employer and which part is signed by the customer.
The convention of tipping doesn't matter for the average wage. It does matter at the edge for quality.
I've worked for tips and have no memory of giving anyone better service based on tips. It is outdated and needs to go away. I have been to one restaurant where everyone is charged 18% service charge regardless of how many people are at the table. I would like to see more of that along with a higher hourly wage. I tip for the same services that were getting tipped 30 years ago and I consider myself generous, especially at lunch where most people leave the same one dollar that they gave decades ago.
Keeping tips for good service of course means those patrons unable to afford such bribes will end up with sh*tty service, if tip-payers are nearby.
One question for anyone who may know-- how exactly did the rest of the world get rid of tipping, which I guess used to occur elsewhere, at least in Britain?
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 17, 2023, 10:29:25 PM
Keeping tips for good service of course means those patrons unable to afford such bribes will end up with sh*tty service, if tip-payers are nearby.
Since tips are only given
after the service, this scenario requires speculation on the part of the server as to which patrons
might tip more. (And I've heard lots of stories about rich people being cheap, so it's not an easy guess.)
My mom earned her associate's in hotel / motel. She taught me how to tip and I use the same criteria today:
10% – less than expected service -- also standard for buffet service
15% – good service -- this is standard and used most
20% – outstanding service -- rarely used
The rest of these games that are being played with tips are laughable. I agree with the quote at the end of one of those article where they said the following:
"If you work for a company, it's that company's job to pay you for doing work for them," said Mike Janavey, a footwear and clothing designer who lives in New York City. "They're not supposed to be juicing consumers that are already spending money there to pay their employees." https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/tipping-control-consumers-96609175 (https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/tipping-control-consumers-96609175)
Quote from: AJ_Katz on February 18, 2023, 08:28:02 AM
My mom earned her associate's in hotel / motel. She taught me how to tip and I use the same criteria today:
10% – less than expected service -- also standard for buffet service
15% – good service -- this is standard and used most
20% – outstanding service -- rarely used
The rest of these games that are being played with tips are laughable. I agree with the quote at the end of one of those article where they said the following:
"If you work for a company, it's that company's job to pay you for doing work for them," said Mike Janavey, a footwear and clothing designer who lives in New York City. "They're not supposed to be juicing consumers that are already spending money there to pay their employees." https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/tipping-control-consumers-96609175 (https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/tipping-control-consumers-96609175)
Mostly I tip a little more if I think we are annoying (for example, when I've gone out to a meal with several young kids) but honestly I don't really change my tip much based on service. If the food is slow, or the server vanishes, I usually assume that's because they are short staffed and I don't want to punish someone for something out of their control. Besides the idea of evaluating the job performance of people in a place I don't work just makes me feel sort of icky. It's a little like teaching evals, honestly. Yes, it does take me a while to get grades back, that's because I have a lot of students, no TAs and unlike some of my colleagues, am not willing to just give scantron tests which aren't really an appropriate method of evaluation in my discipline.
Quote from: AJ_Katz on February 18, 2023, 08:28:02 AM
10% – less than expected service -- also standard for buffet service
15% – good service -- this is standard and used most
20% – outstanding service -- rarely used
I haven't noticed a huge change in who deserves a tip but I have noticed that the above rule of thumb that I also learned 40 years ago has shifted upwards by about 5%. So the standard at a sit down restaurant is 20%.
Quote from: AJ_Katz on February 18, 2023, 08:28:02 AM
My mom earned her associate's in hotel / motel. She taught me how to tip and I use the same criteria today:
10% – less than expected service -- also standard for buffet service
15% – good service -- this is standard and used most
20% – outstanding service -- rarely used
The rest of these games that are being played with tips are laughable. I agree with the quote at the end of one of those article where they said the following:
"If you work for a company, it's that company's job to pay you for doing work for them," said Mike Janavey, a footwear and clothing designer who lives in New York City. "They're not supposed to be juicing consumers that are already spending money there to pay their employees." https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/tipping-control-consumers-96609175 (https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/tipping-control-consumers-96609175)
Your mother worked for hotels? I want to know how much to actually tip the person that cleans the room after check out. I have never left even 10% of the rate of the room.
I would rather live in a country/world where tipping was not part of the deal and instead employers just paid more (and, if necessary, charged me more as a customer). People often note that tipping puts financial burden on customers and off of employers, but it also creates a burden in terms of figuring out whether to tip and how much to tip, which is increasingly convoluted with the proliferation of tipping requests/suggestions built into payment systems for a variety of services.
Putting that aside, I generally do not tip at coffee shops and I don't like when the payment platform suggests that I leave a tip in view of other customers and the cashier. My orders are simple and I watch the barista - who is already getting paid the standard minimum wage or more - complete them in mere seconds. The quality of service is often so-so, with cashiers staring at their phones, seeming annoyed to be there, or being short with customers.
I do tip at full service restaurants and bars, where the workers make ~$2.50 per hours without tips. And I try to be fairly generous - 20% unless there was some significant problem, which is rare. I also typically tip valets and hotel maids, although I don't always carry cash. A grey area for me are situations where I order at the counter and am unsure what role the staff will be playing until after I pay and am prompted to leave a tip. Do they bring the food out to me? Bus my table? Refill my water?
So in general I'm opposed to the new tipping norms and I don't typically abide by them. Is this petty of me? Maybe so. I am very comfortable financially and so the extra money does not put me out in the slightest. I also worked at plenty of customer service jobs in high school and college, so I am aware that the pay is low, the work conditions lousy, and the customers often obnoxious. Maybe I should just shell out the extra dollar...
I'll do 20% if the service has been nominally OK; don't be a jerk. Anything beyond that, well, it edges into martini time.
20% is so easy! Take ten percent of the bill (forget the tax): move the decimal then double. Easy-peasy. In martini-land, I can't say I've emptied the wallet (would not want to disturb the mice), but reviewing the generosity the next day... Well, I did get a toothpick out of it.
Quote from: lightning on February 19, 2023, 07:03:41 AM
Your mother worked for hotels? I want to know how much to actually tip the person that cleans the room after check out. I have never left even 10% of the rate of the room.
Yes, but her education was in all things customer service related and what she was referring to in the percentages for tips was in restaurants. I've never heard of tipping someone for cleaning a room at a hotel.
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on February 19, 2023, 10:41:19 AM
I would rather live in a country/world where tipping was not part of the deal and instead employers just paid more (and, if necessary, charged me more as a customer).
ME TOO!! I guess the problem is how an employer ensures good customer service. When there is "skin in the game" a worker is hypothetically more likely to try harder. I don't know if that logic holds true though and wonder what services are like in countries where tipping is not expected.
Quote from: AJ_Katz on February 19, 2023, 02:38:41 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on February 19, 2023, 10:41:19 AM
I would rather live in a country/world where tipping was not part of the deal and instead employers just paid more (and, if necessary, charged me more as a customer).
ME TOO!! I guess the problem is how an employer ensures good customer service. When there is "skin in the game" a worker is hypothetically more likely to try harder. I don't know if that logic holds true though and wonder what services are like in countries where tipping is not expected.
What we can at least do is to have what would be a normal tip built into the cost, so that the tip for normal service is 0%, and you might tip 5% for very good service (and for bad service, you complain and eventually the server gets fired).
Service is fine in the no tipping countries I've visited, even the no tipping and it's very hard to fire anyone for anything countries.
Quote from: AJ_Katz on February 19, 2023, 02:36:47 PM
I've never heard of tipping someone for cleaning a room at a hotel.
My parents taught me to always leave a tip for the people who clean hotel rooms. It can be a nasty, low paying job. If they are cleaning the room daily, leave a tip on counter in room each day.
Quote from: quasihumanist on February 19, 2023, 02:56:30 PM
Quote from: AJ_Katz on February 19, 2023, 02:38:41 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on February 19, 2023, 10:41:19 AM
I would rather live in a country/world where tipping was not part of the deal and instead employers just paid more (and, if necessary, charged me more as a customer).
ME TOO!! I guess the problem is how an employer ensures good customer service. When there is "skin in the game" a worker is hypothetically more likely to try harder. I don't know if that logic holds true though and wonder what services are like in countries where tipping is not expected.
What we can at least do is to have what would be a normal tip built into the cost, so that the tip for normal service is 0%, and you might tip 5% for very good service (and for bad service, you complain and eventually the server gets fired).
Service is fine in the no tipping countries I've visited, even the no tipping and it's very hard to fire anyone for anything countries.
Of course it is: We are seeing survivors! [The problem is called "survivorship bias".] Instead of
individual employees paid according to their productivity, we have
firms paid according to their productivity. Instead of shirkers being financially penalized, hire too many shirkers, and the whole firm is dead meat.
Without tipping, employers have to figure out their own second best weed out strategy. [IQ tests anyone?] My guess is that tipping is the better way to do it in activities that only the customer can evaluate. And yes, some customers can free ride. But I also guess the cost is lower to productive employees than, say, IQ tests or whatnot. If I were wrong, tipping would disappear.
Tipping is a non-problem.
Quote from: Cheerful on February 19, 2023, 03:24:50 PM
Quote from: AJ_Katz on February 19, 2023, 02:36:47 PM
I've never heard of tipping someone for cleaning a room at a hotel.
My parents taught me to always leave a tip for the people who clean hotel rooms. It can be a nasty, low paying job. If they are cleaning the room daily, leave a tip on counter in room each day.
I always tip a few dollars each day. It bugs me that the women who clean our hotel rooms work harder and longer than the guys who valet the cars and make the same tip.
Some more random thoughts:
I don't usually see much of a correlation between level of service and tips. I usually tip (at a restaurant) 20 per cent (usually in cash). I don't really like this, and I think it is a way for the restaurant to put part of the cost of running the business on the customer, or perhaps better put, to make the cost of eating out seem less than it really is. In my opinion, if you do not have the money to tip 15-25% on top of your bill, you shouldn't be eating out (or you should be ordering less). If the service is really really good, or if there is some other reason (it's Thanksgiving, say), I might tip more. I will not tip less than 15% if I don't like the service--just like I won't pay less for the dinner if I don't like it.
My recollection is that studies have shown that there is a high correlation between perceived sexual attractiveness (e.g., gender, clothing, attitude, race, age, etc.) and the size of tip, at least when the tipper is male. Again if I remember correctly, there is a link between tipping jobs (bartenders, waitresses) and the frequency of sexual harassment.
I do not tip other professionals--lawyers, accountants, dentists, doctors--for doing a good job, although I would more likely accept a higher fee for a better service provider. But again, these people are not paid a wage that is below the legal minimum for everybody else.
Finally, it is certainly true that one good night can bring in a large amount of money, especially if a waiter is working at a high-end place. I have known many waiters, and the reality is that while a good Friday night might bring in a large amount of money, not every night is a good Friday night, and the tips tend to average out over the month.
Quote from: AJ_Katz on February 19, 2023, 02:36:47 PM
Quote from: lightning on February 19, 2023, 07:03:41 AM
Your mother worked for hotels? I want to know how much to actually tip the person that cleans the room after check out. I have never left even 10% of the rate of the room.
Yes, but her education was in all things customer service related and what she was referring to in the percentages for tips was in restaurants. I've never heard of tipping someone for cleaning a room at a hotel.
A very close friend of mine has been running hotels for more than two decades, and I can never get a straight answer out of him about tipping the housecleaning staff. He also dealt mainly with customers if he had to get out of his office and work the front line, so he has no idea. He never actually went to individual rooms when they were being cleaned.
Internet searches don't tell me anything definitive either.
I'm just wondering if the people that hang out in the fora could give me an idea of how much they leave on the desk in the hotel room, if at all.
When housekeepers used to clean hotel rooms daily (pre-pandemic), I would leave $2-3 daily. Now that most hotels only clean after a guest checks out, I leave $5 flat if I stay more than one night, regardless of the final bill.
I tell my veteran hospitality friend that's what I do for tipping housekeepers, and he says there is no standard tipping custom and that there is no expectation for tipping housekeepers. At the same time, I know that hotel housekeepers get tipped. Tipping housekeepers seems to be a big mystery, even for the folks that run hotels. And it seems housekeepers themselves keep the amounts that guests leave on the desks, a big mystery.
Hence, that's why I asked.
Regarding tipping hotel cleaners: this depends in part what type of hotel/motel I am staying, how dirty I am leaving it, and whether I am getting reimbursed by work.
When I travelled for business (before my current professor job), and I stayed for several nights at a higher-end hotel, and my work would reimburse me for tips, I would leave between $10 and $20 per night. Once they paid for a multi-room suite for two weeks, and I left $300 in tips--again, reimbursed by my work. I do not stay in higher-end hotels on my own so I don't know what I would have tipped otherwise. When I was travelling with my family (i.e., children) at a mid-range motel and they made a mess I tipped more than when I was staying myself and barely touched anything.
My wife and I just got back from a nice weekend (no children) and for two nights staying in a small room that was not cleaned until we left, we tipped $10. If they had cleaned the room nightly, I probably would have left more.
I think we need to assess the assumption that "tips make servers work harder or more efficiently, or otherwise provide better customer service."
In a serendipitous coincidence, our student paper ran a piece this week about the waitresses at a local pizza place. It's not exactly candlelit Italian, but it's considered "upscale" for my town, and is frequented by faculty for happy hour. All the front-end servers are attractive young women (that's part of the local stereotype). The student paper's focus was on some of the servers to wear their hair in pigtails or braids -- making them seem younger but also sexier? (The article also referenced an episode of the TV show "Community" in which a character's perceived youthfulness is overly sexualized). Servers claimed in the interview that there is much that's out of their control, esp in regards to how customers view their competence. So they lean into something that [the servers themselves] they think the customers think is sexy. And it has led to more tips.
And, as Caracal says, I'm not sure I'm in a place to adequately judge whether or not a server "deserves" a tip.
Finally, I'll add that it's clear that many Americans -- even those who think tipping is terrible -- would rather pay $25+ $5 tip for their meal than pay $30 menu price with no tip. Restaurants who raise menu prices 15% and say no tipping found that they lose customers.
Quote from: lightning on February 19, 2023, 08:41:40 PM
Quote from: AJ_Katz on February 19, 2023, 02:36:47 PM
Quote from: lightning on February 19, 2023, 07:03:41 AM
Your mother worked for hotels? I want to know how much to actually tip the person that cleans the room after check out. I have never left even 10% of the rate of the room.
Yes, but her education was in all things customer service related and what she was referring to in the percentages for tips was in restaurants. I've never heard of tipping someone for cleaning a room at a hotel.
A very close friend of mine has been running hotels for more than two decades, and I can never get a straight answer out of him about tipping the housecleaning staff. He also dealt mainly with customers if he had to get out of his office and work the front line, so he has no idea. He never actually went to individual rooms when they were being cleaned.
Internet searches don't tell me anything definitive either.
I'm just wondering if the people that hang out in the fora could give me an idea of how much they leave on the desk in the hotel room, if at all.
When housekeepers used to clean hotel rooms daily (pre-pandemic), I would leave $2-3 daily. Now that most hotels only clean after a guest checks out, I leave $5 flat if I stay more than one night, regardless of the final bill.
I tell my veteran hospitality friend that's what I do for tipping housekeepers, and he says there is no standard tipping custom and that there is no expectation for tipping housekeepers. At the same time, I know that hotel housekeepers get tipped. Tipping housekeepers seems to be a big mystery, even for the folks that run hotels. And it seems housekeepers themselves keep the amounts that guests leave on the desks, a big mystery.
Hence, that's why I asked.
I leave $10 in the room. I typically don't get my room cleaned every day (or at all, if I'm staying for just a few days), so no need for daily tipping.
This thread is the first time I ever heard of tipping hotel room cleaners. I did not know this was a thing.
Quote from: Anselm on February 20, 2023, 08:36:48 AM
This thread is the first time I ever heard of tipping hotel room cleaners. I did not know this was a thing.
And those who'll scrub the bathrooms and vacuum the halls? Do they merit tips (sure), but how to manage? Hard to believe they exist, but they surely do. Or not?
Quote from: lightning on February 19, 2023, 08:41:40 PM
I'm just wondering if the people that hang out in the fora could give me an idea of how much they leave on the desk in the hotel room, if at all.
Most of my travel is single night stays mid-range places. I leave $5.
Quote from: RatGuy on February 20, 2023, 05:32:14 AM
Finally, I'll add that it's clear that many Americans -- even those who think tipping is terrible -- would rather pay $25+ $5 tip for their meal than pay $30 menu price with no tip. Restaurants who raise menu prices 15% and say no tipping found that they lose customers.
I think this is partly (largely?) because customers are wary that "no tipping" is really a thing; they don't want to get a stink eye for not tipping even though they're "told" not to. Avoiding the whole thing is easier. I think many customers would embrace it if they were convinced it's
real.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 20, 2023, 02:11:54 PM
Quote from: RatGuy on February 20, 2023, 05:32:14 AM
Finally, I'll add that it's clear that many Americans -- even those who think tipping is terrible -- would rather pay $25+ $5 tip for their meal than pay $30 menu price with no tip. Restaurants who raise menu prices 15% and say no tipping found that they lose customers.
I think this is partly (largely?) because customers are wary that "no tipping" is really a thing; they don't want to get a stink eye for not tipping even though they're "told" not to. Avoiding the whole thing is easier. I think many customers would embrace it if they were convinced it's real.
Yes, Marsh. Tipping is the convention. If one breaks the convention, there is no reason to trust the convention breaker and every reason to mistrust him.
Change the question: What if
all restaurants put up signs saying "no tipping"? Would custom go down then? No way. The convention has just been changed!
Changing conventions requires collective action. There's no tipping in restaurants in large parts of Europe on account the law says wages have to be paid at such and such rate. That does not mean that the selection process for efficient staff has been suspended, only that it has to rely on second-best measures. Efficient wait staff tend to gravitate to efficient restaurants.
On another aspect of tipping: for a edited volume that I was working on with several other authors and that will be published by a major university press, we hired a professional indexer. (For those of you not in book fields, while an index is required for a book, it is considered the responsibility of the author(s) to either do it themselves or hire somebody to do it.) Of course, we split the cost equally. However, one editor--who has published quite a few books and has used this indexer before--argued that we should each kick in around 30 per cent extra for a tip. I have never heard of tipping book indexers. Is this a thing?
Quote from: jerseyjay on February 20, 2023, 05:01:56 PM
On another aspect of tipping: for a edited volume that I was working on with several other authors and that will be published by a major university press, we hired a professional indexer. (For those of you not in book fields, while an index is required for a book, it is considered the responsibility of the author(s) to either do it themselves or hire somebody to do it.) Of course, we split the cost equally. However, one editor--who has published quite a few books and has used this indexer before--argued that we should each kick in around 30 per cent extra for a tip. I have never heard of tipping book indexers. Is this a thing?
That editor colleague was merely trying to confuse you with words to get the wages of his friend raised. Look at points seven and eight of the FAQ's on the website of the American Society of Indexers https://www.asindexing.org/about-indexing/frequently-asked-questions/ (https://www.asindexing.org/about-indexing/frequently-asked-questions/)
Quote from: dismalist on February 20, 2023, 05:14:41 PM
Quote from: jerseyjay on February 20, 2023, 05:01:56 PM
On another aspect of tipping: for a edited volume that I was working on with several other authors and that will be published by a major university press, we hired a professional indexer. (For those of you not in book fields, while an index is required for a book, it is considered the responsibility of the author(s) to either do it themselves or hire somebody to do it.) Of course, we split the cost equally. However, one editor--who has published quite a few books and has used this indexer before--argued that we should each kick in around 30 per cent extra for a tip. I have never heard of tipping book indexers. Is this a thing?
That editor colleague was merely trying to confuse you with words to get the wages of his friend raised. Look at points seven and eight of the FAQ's on the website of the American Society of Indexers https://www.asindexing.org/about-indexing/frequently-asked-questions/ (https://www.asindexing.org/about-indexing/frequently-asked-questions/)
Thanks. I think there might also have been a bit of what I was doing when I tipped the hotel maid $300 on a business trip. So long as somebody else is paying, there is nothing wrong with inflating the cost. Most of my fellow editors could get their departments to cover the cost of indexing. For various reasons, my school won't do that, so it came out of my pocket. (I didn't tip the indexer for the same reason I didn't tip my dentist. I think it is somewhat insulting to tip self-employed professionals.)
Something that I have only recently noticed . . . well, recently, because for most of my life restaurant receipts didn't have the 15%/18%/20%/25% tip amount pre-calculated for me at the bottom of the receipt (which I assume is for the customers who can't do arithmetic in their head) . . .
I've noticed that these pre-calculated amounts are calculated against the total final price before tip (cost of menu items + tax) and not against just the pre-tax total price. I always thought that sit-down restaurant tips were calculated on the pre-tax total price and then the taxes were added to the total paid after the tip was added.
Quote from: lightning on March 11, 2023, 01:45:17 PM
Something that I have only recently noticed . . . well, recently, because for most of my life restaurant receipts didn't have the 15%/18%/20%/25% tip amount pre-calculated for me at the bottom of the receipt (which I assume is for the customers who can't do arithmetic in their head) . . .
I've noticed that these pre-calculated amounts are calculated against the total final price before tip (cost of menu items + tax) and not against just the pre-tax total price. I always thought that sit-down restaurant tips were calculated on the pre-tax total price and then the taxes were added to the total paid after the tip was added.
Tips are supposed to be calculated on pre-tax total. I tip in cash on the pre-tax total, at restaurants with table service. I don't tip for drive through service or counter service at food establishments. I generally pay the bill in cash, too.
I leave a cash tip on desk in hotel room the first day. If the room gets cleaned, I leave another cash tip for the next day. If the room doesn't get cleaned, I don't increase the amount.
I avoid those restaurants with the little touch screen order and pay screens at the table. When I choose a full service restaurant, I want to be able ask a question or make a request. Interacting with server is part of the full service restaurant experience.
I personally dont mind the concept of tipping, but it should not replace real wages and should be a bonus for going above and beyond rather than an expectation and wage subsidy.
One aspect that really bothers me though, which may have come up here, is that it is calculated as a % of the bill. If I go to an affordable family restaurant and have great service and tip 20%, the server would not get as much as the waiter in a fancy restaurant that I didn't particularly like and tipped 15%. If I decide to drink a beer or ten instead of pop, all the sudden I need to tip more despite it being the same work. It is simply a matter of inequity IMO. I always felt the worst for the staff working at low end buffet restaurants, who are working just as hard but getting crumbs.
This is even worse as bars, where you are usually expected to tip a dollar per drink (at least, I dont get out much and could be out of date). I dont see how pouring me a beer is really going above and beyond or why I am paying extra for that "service".
Hmm... if the barman pours say 30 drinks an hour, he can clear 30 bucks just on tips. Nice work if you can get it.