Is calling out someone's supposed "privilege" in private conversation amongst friends just the latest way to cloak one's jealousy? Has anyone else experienced this recently? Has it really come to this?
My experience, briefly:
I was with a close friend in person in her home for the first time since Covid back in March. She is a retired academic like me. She lives by herself with her lovely three cats and is even more introverted than I am. We have spoken on the phone frequently since March and not once had she mentioned missing going out.
Anyway, when I saw her, she started talking about Covid and everything that we are losing. So I asked her what she felt like she has lost. Her answer: "I miss going to the gym." (She has a lot of work out equipment at home, so I suppose it was the social aspect.) She followed this up with: "And I miss going to my massage therapist."
After the appropriate commiseration, I confessed that I was still really enjoying the situation. For one thing, since March, I have learned another language (Spanish), something I probably would never have done without Covid. Ok, I don't speak Spanish fluently, but now I've read Marquez and Llosa in Spanish, can at least get the gist of what people are saying on Spanish radio and through a online exchange program have met and am conversing with English language learners in Colombia and Peru.
I didn't say all of the above during our conversation. I just said that I was happy that I had been able to learn Spanish. And guess what her response was?
Friend: Well, you are happy because you're in the top 1% (not true, technically) and you have privilege.
Me: Silence.
Friend: No, admit it it. You have privilege.
And I am thinking: "Are you jealous because you spent your lockdown watching Netflix while I learned another language?" Where else is this coming from? I mean it's not like this friend is either a person of color or economically disadvantaged in any way.
I have another, similar story but with a group of acquaintances. So, it's not a complete one-off I'm afraid.
Here in the US we all nearly all have privilege compared to the bulk of the world population. Obviously, some have more than others.
Regarding your friend, was she saying that she does not have privilege? Doubtless you have advantages that others don't have. Her comment seems to suggest that you are not entitled to enjoy your position.
Maybe it makes a difference how you got your privilege. Trust fund kids are annoying when they seem oblivious to their position of advantage because they were just handed it. It feels like a "let them eat cake" attitude.
But it doesn't sound like you were being unsympathetic to people who are less fortunate or to her. And although your advantages allowed you to enjoy the opportunities provided by the lockdown, it was also your own enterprise and resourcefulness that helped you take advantage of them. It seems that she didn't want to acknowledge that.
But it seems a big generalization to go from what she said to saying that it is a national trend.
I've never considered a massage or a gym membership within my budget, so I might have turned the comment around to say "we both are privileged is so many different ways...it's something to be grateful for, isn't it?"
M.
Quote from: Treehugger on August 23, 2020, 04:22:55 AM
Is calling out someone's supposed "privilege" in private conversation amongst friends just the latest way to cloak one's jealousy? Has anyone else experienced this recently? Has it really come to this?
My experience, briefly:
I was with a close friend in person in her home for the first time since Covid back in March. She is a retired academic like me. She lives by herself with her lovely three cats and is even more introverted than I am. We have spoken on the phone frequently since March and not once had she mentioned missing going out.
Anyway, when I saw her, she started talking about Covid and everything that we are losing. So I asked her what she felt like she has lost. Her answer: "I miss going to the gym." (She has a lot of work out equipment at home, so I suppose it was the social aspect.) She followed this up with: "And I miss going to my massage therapist."
After the appropriate commiseration, I confessed that I was still really enjoying the situation. For one thing, since March, I have learned another language (Spanish), something I probably would never have done without Covid. Ok, I don't speak Spanish fluently, but now I've read Marquez and Llosa in Spanish, can at least get the gist of what people are saying on Spanish radio and through a online exchange program have met and am conversing with English language learners in Colombia and Peru.
I didn't say all of the above during our conversation. I just said that I was happy that I had been able to learn Spanish. And guess what her response was?
Friend: Well, you are happy because you're in the top 1% (not true, technically) and you have privilege.
Me: Silence.
Friend: No, admit it it. You have privilege.
And I am thinking: "Are you jealous because you spent your lockdown watching Netflix while I learned another language?" Where else is this coming from? I mean it's not like this friend is either a person of color or economically disadvantaged in any way.
I have another, similar story but with a group of acquaintances. So, it's not a complete one-off I'm afraid.
It sounds like your friend was frustrated with you, didn't really know how to articulate it, and ended up grabbing for something that doesn't really fit.
I think I can understand what your friend might have been feeling. I have very good friends I've know for a long time who also seem to be doing pretty well with all of this and I've also found myself pretty frustrated with them at times. It isn't that I'm having a particularly acute crisis, or am in a particularly bad situation. I'm managing, but I'm not seeing a lot of positives. That can make it a little jarring when someone else is doing just fine. One of the weirdest things about this is that everyone is dealing with the same event, but it effects people in dramatically different ways. That often leads to me feeling like people are judging me, either about how I'm handling things, or which considered risks I'm taking.
My guess is that your friend felt judged. She feels cooped up, is acutely missing the routine social interactions that used to be an important part of her day, and probably doesn't feel very productive. I'm sure you weren't judging her, or trying to seem disapproving, but if that's how she was feeling, it isn't going to feel great to hear that someone else is doing just great and using this as a chance to do "useful" and productive things.
I don't know this person, but even in retirement she's probably within the world's top 1-2% when it comes to income: https://ourworldindata.org/global-economic-inequality (https://ourworldindata.org/global-economic-inequality). People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. She can give away her life of privilege just as easily as you can.
Yep, I have a very privileged life. Admitting that doesn't have to involve guilt or other negative feelings.
However, the only people I regularly encounter who attempt to use as a cudgel on me are:
* academics in the humanities and social sciences. Not everyone in that group does it, but I can't think of a single instance of chemists, physicists, geologists, biologists, engineers, or mathematicians using my privilege as a cudgel. The STEM folks will point out that only we privileged can help the underprivileged in many ways, but it's always an appeal to helping those who have been unlucky in birth or other ways through no fault of their own.
* people from my place of origin who want something from me and insist that somehow I owe them personally. These are seldom people representing the groups I actually owe (e.g., the kith and kin who raised me, the schools, the libraries, the Girl Scouts). Instead, these are usually individuals who made fun of my studying, my positive involvement with the organizations that helped me prepare for a different life, and in general disdained the very activities that led to me being very privileged as an adult after starting out eligible for free lunches.
* people who have a serious ax to grind that gives them some sort of power by representing the underprivileged. For example, we had a Black Lives Matter protest here in our community of 10k people. Per a recent demographic count, our community has about 100 Black individuals, almost all of whom are transplants who have jobs using their graduate degrees and their families.
However, we have so many desperately poor communities and reservations within a two-hour drive that we have had standing programs for decades to support the region and help more people get as much education as they can hold including volunteers from my employer in droves. However, again, the underprivileged folks in the region aren't Black and therefore focusing the national BLM or Defund the Police efforts locally is really insulting and doesn't help the people here who need a helping hand.
I've never had a professional massage or a gym membership. I've been lucky that the pandemic hit when I have the job I have. We would have been totally screwed if the pandemic had hit when we were just starting out. Because of that recognition, we have been carrying all our tenants instead of insisting they pay rent they can't afford.
In fact, we have arranged for gift cards and food deliveries at various times in the past decade for tenants who couldn't afford rent because they were just so unlucky (e.g., employer closed in the small town, medical problems, death of the wage earner). We have forgiven amounts of $10+k (more than a year) because there was just no way they could ever pay it back, even when they were back on their feet.
In the before times, we hosted dinners multiple times a week in our house and included people we knew were food insecure (students, retirees, the temporarily unlucky) along with everyone else. The point wasn't pity; the point was to have a pleasant evening and share what we have while ensuring that people weren't isolated.
We have frequently made up the difference in the grocery line when we've seen people have to make hard choices among necessities when the bill came to just a little too much.
We have sent money to kith and kin who raised us (or welcomed us as an adult) because we have plenty to share and they were having tight months/years.
We can do these things because we're privileged instead of barely scraping by.
We choose to do these things because we weren't always this privileged and we remember what it's like to be living in one room because that's all we can afford to heat and making food choices based on filling, cheap, and sufficient nutrition for this week.
I am fine with admitting that I've still been working my regular salaried job with a different emphasis on projects instead of having lots of privileged free time. Thus, I've watched an absurd amount of television recently instead of going to the movies, visiting friends on holiday weekend trips, and participating in all the local community events. I've already been hugely productive so I can sit on the couch with the TV on and post on the fora from my tablet.
Quote from: downer on August 23, 2020, 05:10:40 AM
Maybe it makes a difference how you got your privilege. Trust fund kids are annoying when they seem oblivious to their position of advantage because they were just handed it. It feels like a "let them eat cake" attitude.
But it doesn't sound like you were being unsympathetic to people who are less fortunate or to her. And although your advantages allowed you to enjoy the opportunities provided by the lockdown, it was also your own enterprise and resourcefulness that helped you take advantage of them. It seems that she didn't want to acknowledge that.
But it seems a big generalization to go from what she said to saying that it is a national trend.
I hardly think so, to put it plainly. Privilege is now something white people have to live down. White men, even more so. And pretty soon people who have never experienced the need to be gay, or a dire need to change their own gender, people who...(getting tired already). So we will be hearing this more and more in conversation. Zeitgeist.
Quote
Maybe it makes a difference how you got your privilege. Trust fund kids are annoying when they seem oblivious to their position of advantage because they were just handed it. It feels like a "let them eat cake" attitude.
An aside. Fast forward: it makes a difference what you do with your privilege. .Picture a year from now, Treehugger and her woke friend are hiking and they come upon a Spanish only speaking person who has just been stung by a bee and needs a shot of epinephrine soon or will die. Treehugger uses professor woke's cellphone, calls for help, and all three get their picture in the paper.
QuoteHere in the US we all nearly all have privilege compared to the bulk of the world population. Obviously, some have more than others.
This is what Candace Owens has been saying and I expect she'll get punished for it.
Quote from: mamselle on August 23, 2020, 05:26:42 AM
I've never considered a massage or a gym membership within my budget, so I might have turned the comment around to say "we both are privileged is so many different ways...it's something to be grateful for, isn't it?"
M.
^ This.
That said, the line that was crossed was talking about "really enjoying the situation." Because of "the situation" people are dying , losing their jobs, health, livelihoods, sanity.
It's okay that it's working out okay for you, still, "really enjoying the situation" feels rather tone-deaf.
Out here there are horrible wildfires. "Well, I finally got to dump my house and old car because the fire burned them, so insurance paid out. Not sure what happened to my cat, but he was old anyway so saved some vet bills there! I'll take the cash and move somewhere else. Yay, wildfires!"
Lots of this get said every day that are tone deaf. Whether they're brought to light really depends on the prevailing winds, who's got the floor to call you out, how much noise are they willing to make, how many have the same beef.
A guy in my workplace was talking about how great it was to have a spring sabbatical followed by a summer with no teaching. I'm sure he thought he sounded grateful, but what I heard was 'you're writing another one of your silly books until May, then you're going birdwatching for the summer while I teach 9-5 for 1/3 of your pay.'
There's a difference between accusing a friend of privilege in a private conversation and using the notion of a class privilege in a political context. OP is talking about the former.
I have a friend who has enjoyed the lockdown and was glad about no commute, more time with the kids, more time to write. I didn't take offense when they told me this. I've been more negatively affected, but nothing terrible. And I know people from NYC who were able to take advantage of their second home outside of the city once the pandemic got serious, or make use of a friend's spare place in a more rural setting. We all have it a lot better than people living in the projects, with a bunch of them in a small apartment, and nowhere else to go.
It's always bad manners to brag about your advantages to people who don't have them. (Well, in middle class culture at least. Not sure that's true for The Real Housewives of New Jersey or the Trump family.) But in a good friendship, there's also a freedom to be honest and not worry abut being judged.
Quote from: downer on August 23, 2020, 05:10:40 AM
Here in the US we all nearly all have privilege compared to the bulk of the world population. Obviously, some have more than others.
Yes, all you need is a salary of >$34,000 to be in the top 1% world-wide. At least this was the case in 2012. (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2082385/We-1--You-need-34k-income-global-elite--half-worlds-richest-live-U-S.html) Of course, the cost of living is higher in the US than elsewhere, so this complicates the picture somewhat. (When we were in India, I remember standing on a pretty long line to pay admission for a park. The admission was the equivalent of 7 cents.)
Quote
Regarding your friend, was she saying that she does not have privilege? Doubtless you have advantages that others don't have. Her comment seems to suggest that you are not entitled to enjoy your position.
Maybe it makes a difference how you got your privilege. Trust fund kids are annoying when they seem oblivious to their position of advantage because they were just handed it. It feels like a "let them eat cake" attitude.
If I had asked, I am sure she would have said that she is privileged, but is mindful of it in a way that I am supposedly not. But I really don't know. I am guessing.
Some of my $$$ I worked for and some I have through my husband. I will also get an inheritance. But so will she. In fact, I am thinking hers will be larger than mine. She pretty clearly has more $$$ growing up than I did and has just won a 5 year legal battle over her inheritance. I'm thinking you don't engage in a protracted legal battle over inheritance unless it is sizable. Anyway ... compared to the rest of the world, we are both absurdly privileged.
Quote
But it doesn't sound like you were being unsympathetic to people who are less fortunate or to her. And although your advantages allowed you to enjoy the opportunities provided by the lockdown, it was also your own enterprise and resourcefulness that helped you take advantage of them. It seems that she didn't want to acknowledge that.
I didn't include the entire conversation in the OP, but yes, that is what she went on to say. She said that although I am having a terrific time, families with children are really stressed out right now. (Note: She does not have children either.) I said something like: "Yes, I think it is really horrible what they are going through right now." And discussed how bad the situation was some of our mutual friends. Then she said: "You make it sound like it is their fault that they have children." And I'm thinking what on earth? How are you getting that out of what I am saying? Can't we just have a normal, relaxed, at least semi-fun conversation.
[/quote]
Quote
But it seems a big generalization to go from what she said to saying that it is a national trend.
Well, it wasn't just one experience. Here's another one (it just so happens that it is also related to Spanish):
Back in the first week in March (right before COVID became a huge issue in the US), my husband and I took a birding trip to Oaxaca province, Mexico. We hired a private guide, but for complicated reasons, wound up sharing the guide with a group of three other birders for part of the trip (a couple and a friend of this couple who were all in their late twenties/early thirties, people we didn't know before the trip).
The very first evening we were all together, we were having dinner at an upscale restaurant in Huatulco. As usual, I asked our guide to order dinner for me. At that point, I knew a little Spanish, but not enough to feel comfortable ordering in a restaurant given that I have chronic pancreatitis and if I have even a little added fat or alcohol in my meal, I could get extremely sick. So, it's not just a matter of maybe getting stuck with some unfamiliar food I might not happen to like. (I had even told one member of this three person group about the pancreatitis ahead of time — we were trying to decide if we would all be compatible via email before the trip— but I frankly didn't care if they remembered I had the issue or not.)
In any case, no sooner do I have the guide place my order for me than one of the women in that group tells me, in front of the group, that she is dismayed that someone of my age and education level can't even order a restaurant meal without having to use a guide. And then preceded to inform me that it was only polite and non-ethnocentric to learn the language of the country one is traveling in. I told her about my dietary requirements and how serious they were, but conceded that I really didn't know that much Spanish. (I knew some words and basic grammatical rules, but really couldn't communicate; this woman on the other hand could speak Spanish really very well). However, I did say that I am fluent in French, can speak German and can read in Italian, even if I can't speak Spanish. She persisted and asked, well why hadn't I also learned Spanish? I explained that I had studied those particular languages because they were opera languages and Spanish wasn't.
At this, point, the other women more or less lost it and said/yelled: "I can't BELIEVE you just SAID THAT!" I was confused, so she said, "What did I say that was so horrible?" She said: You just said that French, German and Italian were "UPPPER" languages and Spanish wasn't. I said: "I said they were o-pe-ra languages and Spanish wasn't. I studied to be an opera singer and that is why I learned those languages."
Anyway, she didn't actually use the word "privilege," but she certainly came to the dinner all ready to judge me from an identitarian political perspective ("You horrible, ethnocentric person you.")
It seems to me that there are just a lot of judgmental people out there (as there always have been) and "privilege" and/or "ethnocentrism" has become the new socially acceptable way to be judgmental, superior, and virtuous all at the same time!
I can come up with more examples too. But not many more, thankfully.
Since we don't know this person and weren't in on the conversation it is impossible to say for sure how or what "privilege" is supposed to mean in this circumstance or the tone in which it was uttered.
I will say that I have been very well aware of how privileged my wife and I are in these circumstances. Certainly we would be making a great deal more money had we each pursued our first careers, but we have had a very comfortable but disappointing summer (our travel plans quashed and my resulting deep homesickness) and I am aware that our "woes" are very first-world-problem-y.
That said, we both worked very hard to get to where we are, including hitting the eject button on our last university employer, which is now seeing some economic warning signs, to land in our current situation which is stable even during the pandemic. And I think so often this perspective is lost. Sure, both my wife and I are products of stable middle-class upbringings with access to education etc. And then we made basically good decisions on top of this. Am I supposed to feel bad about what we've done even as I feel empathy for those folks who cannot pay their rent? Should TH be ashamed of learning Spanish because hu is lucky enough to not be starving?
It is a mark of our zeitgeist held over, I believe, from the turbulent '70s that we feel we must remind people constantly of their luck in an aggressive and confrontational manner.
We live in confrontational times in which we belittle anyone, no matter why or how, with cultural ideology. Polly, you just typically enacted this very thing.
Quote from: Treehugger on August 23, 2020, 04:22:55 AM
After the appropriate commiseration, I confessed that I was still really enjoying the situation.
Quote from: ciao_yall on August 23, 2020, 09:03:48 AM
That said, the line that was crossed was talking about "really enjoying the situation." Because of "the situation" people are dying , losing their jobs, health, livelihoods, sanity.
It's okay that it's working out okay for you, still, "really enjoying the situation" feels rather tone-deaf.
+1 ciao_yall.
"Really enjoying" a horrific pandemic? Insensitive remark, to put it mildly. Hopefully, just a poor choice of words.
Quote from: Cheerful on August 23, 2020, 10:41:11 AM
Quote from: Treehugger on August 23, 2020, 04:22:55 AM
After the appropriate commiseration, I confessed that I was still really enjoying the situation.
Quote from: ciao_yall on August 23, 2020, 09:03:48 AM
That said, the line that was crossed was talking about "really enjoying the situation." Because of "the situation" people are dying , losing their jobs, health, livelihoods, sanity.
It's okay that it's working out okay for you, still, "really enjoying the situation" feels rather tone-deaf.
+1 ciao_yall.
"Really enjoying" a horrific pandemic? Insensitive remark, to put it mildly. Hopefully, just a poor choice of words.
Of course I am not enjoying the fact that a lot of people are suffering and dying and even more are suffering emotional and financial insecurity because of it. However, this is an unique time and there are indeed aspects of it that are very enjoyable for some people.
I agree that it would be absolutely tone-deaf to come out with ("I'm loving the lockdown") in a public situation or at a large private gathering where you didn't know the life circumstances of everyone there. But it was just the two of us and I know my friend really pretty well. The great thing about privacy is that you can say things that might be interpreted as politically incorrect and get away with it (although in this situation, I didn't even think I was crossing a line).
Why are you friends with someone who doesn't share your values and world view?
Or, perhaps, you're not really friends, but just people who have known each other a long time?
There are certainly people in life, work, and on these fora whom I've known a long time (decades in some cases), but we're definitely not friends because we don't share a worldview. We have met for dinner etc. when such was a thing and I don't wish harm on anyone, but we're definitely not friends.
Just because something is a small gathering doesn't mean you're safe assuming you can say anything when the worldviews of everyone present aren't compatible. This is how advice columnists stay in business as outraged people write, 'it was just the two of us and that person said X! Can you believe people are just wandering around thinking they can say X when everyone knows you can't?'
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 23, 2020, 10:14:49 AM
Since we don't know this person and weren't in on the conversation it is impossible to say for sure how or what "privilege" is supposed to mean in this circumstance or the tone in which it was uttered.
I will say that I have been very well aware of how privileged my wife and I are in these circumstances. Certainly we would be making a great deal more money had we each pursued our first careers, but we have had a very comfortable but disappointing summer (our travel plans quashed and my resulting deep homesickness) and I am aware that our "woes" are very first-world-problem-y.
That said, we both worked very hard to get to where we are, including hitting the eject button on our last university employer, which is now seeing some economic warning signs, to land in our current situation which is stable even during the pandemic. And I think so often this perspective is lost. Sure, both my wife and I are products of stable middle-class upbringings with access to education etc. And then we made basically good decisions on top of this. Am I supposed to feel bad about what we've done even as I feel empathy for those folks who cannot pay their rent? Should TH be ashamed of learning Spanish because hu is lucky enough to not be starving?
It is a mark of our zeitgeist held over, I believe, from the turbulent '70s that we feel we must remind people constantly of their luck in an aggressive and confrontational manner.
We live in confrontational times in which we belittle anyone, no matter why or how, with cultural ideology. Polly, you just typically enacted this very thing.
If you take out all of the overuse and the feelings about the concept of privilege, the point is that it is useful for people to be aware of the ways in which lots of us have advantages we didn't earn. That's it. It doesn't really mean all of the other things that get lumped in with it. Just because you have one advantage, obviously doesn't mean everything is easy, or that you didn't have other sorts of disadvantages, or that you didn't deserve anything good that happened to you.
I don't like the term particularly, I think it is overused and easily misunderstood, both by people who use the term and people who hate it.
There's also no reason to tie it into feeling bad about everything. I'm a white, straight, married guy with a kid. That ends up meaning that, in most circumstances, I don't have to worry about how people might react to my presence. It doesn't do any good for me to sit around feeling bad about that. There is value in me being aware that other people experience the world in very different ways than I do, instead of just assuming that my experience must be universal.
Quote from: Caracal on August 23, 2020, 05:40:33 AM
It sounds like your friend was frustrated with you, didn't really know how to articulate it, and ended up grabbing for something that doesn't really fit.
I think I can understand what your friend might have been feeling. I have very good friends I've know for a long time who also seem to be doing pretty well with all of this and I've also found myself pretty frustrated with them at times. It isn't that I'm having a particularly acute crisis, or am in a particularly bad situation. I'm managing, but I'm not seeing a lot of positives. That can make it a little jarring when someone else is doing just fine. One of the weirdest things about this is that everyone is dealing with the same event, but it effects people in dramatically different ways. That often leads to me feeling like people are judging me, either about how I'm handling things, or which considered risks I'm taking.
My guess is that your friend felt judged. She feels cooped up, is acutely missing the routine social interactions that used to be an important part of her day, and probably doesn't feel very productive. I'm sure you weren't judging her, or trying to seem disapproving, but if that's how she was feeling, it isn't going to feel great to hear that someone else is doing just great and using this as a chance to do "useful" and productive things.
I'm inclined to agree with Caracal's assessment, for what it's worth. I acknowledge that I'm in a very privileged situation right now: my finances are stable, my living situation is stable, I don't have kids (definitely a privilege in these times), I'm healthy... But an area I do not have privilege in is time. Remember back in April/May, when all those memes were going around that said something like "If you don't come out of this time learning a new skill you have to admit to yourself that time was never the problem..." As I was chained to my computer 12 hours a day, and 10 on weekends, prepping and grading and answering e-mails, those memes made me
livid. If one of my friends had said to me then something like what Treehugger shared, I might very well have snapped at them on a bad day.
If your friend was already feeling frustrated and stressed and judged for feeling frustrated and stressed, I think it's understandable that they may have replied less-than-charitably to your joy in learning a new language. You're not wrong for doing it, and for being somewhat upset at their response, but if you value their friendship, it's worth considering what they might be going through emotionally.
Quote from: Treehugger on August 23, 2020, 11:03:02 AM
Of course I am not enjoying the fact that a lot of people are suffering and dying and even more are suffering emotional and financial insecurity because of it. However, this is an unique time and there are indeed aspects of it that are very enjoyable for some people.
I agree that it would be absolutely tone-deaf to come out with ("I'm loving the lockdown") in a public situation or at a large private gathering where you didn't know the life circumstances of everyone there. But it was just the two of us and I know my friend really pretty well. The great thing about privacy is that you can say things that might be interpreted as politically incorrect and get away with it (although in this situation, I didn't even think I was crossing a line).
I don't think you did anything wrong. Again, I think there's something particularly weird about the same thing being a dominant factor in almost everyone's lives right now. If you had broken your leg and were telling your friend that actually it had been sort of nice to get a chance to learn Spanish and relax, she wouldn't feel threatened or judged by that, because it would just be you talking about how you were reacting to this thing that had happened in your life. However, this is something happening to her too, so that can make it easy to hear judgement or criticism where it wasn't intended. She probably feels stuck and at loose ends and part of her feels like she ought to be doing useful self improvement projects too.
Quote from: Caracal on August 23, 2020, 11:14:35 AM
If you take out all of the overuse and the feelings about the concept of privilege, the point is that it is useful for people to be aware of the ways in which lots of us have advantages we didn't earn. That's it.
If only we could keep the concept to this definition.
I suspect Treehugger's experience is more the norm. I am sure TH meant no offense or insensitivity, but we are a hypersensitive culture. And this hypersensitivity has only become more acute with the current presidential administration and the constellation of right-wing media outlets competing with left-wing pundits.
Quote from: polly_mer on August 23, 2020, 11:11:55 AM
Why are you friends with someone who doesn't share your values and world view?
My world view is not one of the standard world views out there. I have literally never met someone who shares exactly my world view. My husband and I don't share the
same world view and we get along great.
I do think that there may be some other elements in our friendship that are harmful and I am slowly becoming aware of them (probably because I grew up with an extremely abusive mother and, even after years of therapy, am not completely aware of various areas of dysfunction in relationships.) However, this friend does offer a lot of positives that no one else offers in my life. For one, she is the only person in my life, beside my husband, who is genuinely, literally laugh-out-loud funny. So smart, irreverent, so funny. It's just that every now and then we get into this her judging me and me defending myself dynamic. Which is not so great.
But speaking of dysfunction, I was just remembering something she said last year which I felt was really strange.
Last summer I was diagnosed with stage IIIb lung cancer (although I am never smoker and was only 55 y.o. so no "privilege" there, really). I was fortunate enough to have both good insurance and a large social support circle (and I have a lot of supportive friends because I am lucky enough to be retired, to have lived in the same place for many years and have had lots of time to cultivate friendships), so all-in-all, going through treatment was not nearly as bad as it could have been. Anyway, each friend was supportive in their one way. Some helped take me to treatments; some cooked some dinners; some were there for me emotionally.
This one particularly friend was definitely there for me emotionally, plus she was also the only one who was truly interested in listening to me talk about all
details of the disease, the various treatments, the results of the tests. In fact, she also did some research for me and shared it. (When she was in academia, she was in a medical field, so she had genuine interest and ability in the area.) She would up knowing more about my treatment i
n detail than anyone else in my life including my husband. And she was never, ever judgmental. Never did she even attempt to get me to choose one option over the over (where I should be treated, which radiation plan was the best for me, whether I should follow-up with immunotherapy right away or wait, etc. etc.) It was really special actually and I was grateful.
However, once when I thanked her for being so helpful, she said: "I like you better like this. I like you better with the cancer. You seem more 'real,' more grounded." And that felt really weird to me. It was almost as if she was saying: "I am more comfortable around you when you are suffering. And I feel more put off when you are happy and things are going well in your life." And just a few days ago, she seems to have reacted in a similar way. I was happy. Too happy. So she had to burst my bubble a little.
Ok, I am totally hijacking my own thread here. Sorry!
Treehugger, in this instance it's not about you. Your friend has been captured by an ideology that requires her to despise herself. (I bet any amount of money that she's white.) Because self-hatred is not particularly easy in practice, she's transferring the emotion to you.
The best answer when someone calls you "privileged" is to smile, nod, and check your stock portfolio. (It's doing well!)
Quote from: Treehugger on August 23, 2020, 12:25:18 PM
However, once when I thanked her for being so helpful, she said: "I like you better like this. I like you better with the cancer. You seem more 'real,' more grounded." And that felt really weird to me. It was almost as if she was saying: "I am more comfortable around you when you are suffering. And I feel more put off when you are happy and things are going well in your life." And just a few days ago, she seems to have reacted in a similar way. I was happy. Too happy. So she had to burst my bubble a little.
Someone who wants you to be weaker/unluckier/lesser than you are is not a friend. Friends are happy when you succeed and your life is going well; friends are consoling and helpful during the rough spots.
People who prefer the weaker and unlucky may be great as support for the people who need extra care, but that means they should be looking for caretaker duties as a calling because the world is not short of people who need help. Trying to force others into the dependent role is not right.
Having complementary worldviews works out because it's true that people are seldom identical on all factors. "She is funny and was helpful during a time of illness" isn't really a ringing endorsement. https://slate.com/human-interest/2020/08/dear-prudence-in-love-with-brothers-wife.html has the commentariat point out some harsh realities of helpers and the helped.
Dan Savage for romance points out the people find a more than 0.5 and round up to the one. From your description, you might be trying to round up a 0.2 colleague to friend.
Quote from: Treehugger on August 23, 2020, 12:25:18 PM
However, once when I thanked her for being so helpful, she said: "I like you better like this. I like you better with the cancer. You seem more 'real,' more grounded." And that felt really weird to me. It was almost as if she was saying: "I am more comfortable around you when you are suffering. And I feel more put off when you are happy and things are going well in your life." And just a few days ago, she seems to have reacted in a similar way. I was happy. Too happy. So she had to burst my bubble a little.
Wow. Well, some people are good at handling different things - and maybe she feels better helping people with challenges, and so now, the relationship has lost a bit of its purpose for her.
I'm all in favor of a social class analysis. Isabel Wilkerson has a new book out, Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents, which sets out the caste system in the US, and that idea seems right to me. There's remarkably little social mobility in the US. But exactly what we should do with the political concept of privilege is not easily answered. I don't think that liberal guilt or all those "privilege quizzes" have been useful. If we were going to make the US a society of equal opportunity, things would need to change radically. Right now, the main effect of raising consciousness about class privilege is to encourage a few liberals to give some money to charity.
Quote from: downer on August 23, 2020, 12:47:36 PM
If we were going to make the US a society of equal opportunity, things would need to change radically. Right now, the main effect of raising consciousness about class privilege is to encourage a few liberals to give some money to charity.
Yes. Every time class moves to the forefront of the conversation, someone with a race grievance has a hissy fit, and the two movements descend into argument with one another. Meanwhile, conservatives like me develop finger callouses counting all our money. Keep it up, please.
Uh, sorry, but based on what you wrote about this person above, I'd say she's bat-shit crazy and toxic as hell.
For comparison purposes, if you don't mind gore and suspense, check out the character of Gail Brandon, Rita's mother, in the tv show Dexter (haven't read the books the series is based on, don't know if the same character appears there also).
I am coming into this thread a bit late, so I will try to boil down my thoughts.
First, I admit to having an ambiguous view of the current situation. There are certainly good things about it. I have been able to walk more, read more, see my family more, and commute less. I have written three draft articles since March, as well as finalize a book (which I did most of the writing before January).
On the other hand, I have been unable to visit relatives (including going to the--non-Covid-related--funeral of one). I miss talking with my students and colleagues. I miss going to museums, cinemas and, for work-related stuff, archives and libraries. I do in fact miss going to my gym ($20/month).
I am very unhappy that my young child missed a half year of school and will probably miss a good chunk of another.
I am unhappy that my students are often struggling.
I am unhappy that many of the businesses shut down for good near me.
I am unhappy that I have had to take a pay cut, and even more unhappy that many people I know are unemployed.
I am unhappy that when a church nearby gives out free food, the line stretches for more than a quarter of a mile.
I am unhappy that five people in the building down the street died of Covid.
I am unhappy that for weeks the sirens never stopped as people were taken to hospital, many to die.
I am unhappy that friends in Latin America have had no food for months (subsisting only on money sent by relatives).
So while I do not like to use "privilege" I actually think it is pretty damn lucky to see this as a win-win situation. I also think it is pretty lucky to see the main downside not being able to go to the gym.
That said, I am willing to cut people slack because I think that the current situation has made all of us pretty mentally unstable.
Finally, I am not sure what is the point of only having friends who are like you. I mean, I don't want to be friends with Klan members, or made men in the mafia, or whatever. But within a certain standard deviation, it is nice to have friends who are different than you. Otherwise, why would you have friends?
Quote from: writingprof on August 23, 2020, 12:27:06 PM
Treehugger, in this instance it's not about you. Your friend has been captured by an ideology that requires her to despise herself. (I bet any amount of money that she's white.) Because self-hatred is not particularly easy in practice, she's transferring the emotion to you.
The best answer when someone calls you "privileged" is to smile, nod, and check your stock portfolio. (It's doing well!)
Treehugger, from what I've seen here recently, probably uses the moniker ironically. She is not one of the super-'woke' academics of today and is liable to identify some of the absurdity, excessive fixations on political correctness, etc. So she can easily be singled out in conversation as one who is suspected of not giving the concept of white privilege the amount of serious concern it is considered to warrant.
There is little question but that, like it or not, anyone who has been retired on a comfy pension etc., esp one able to be acquired in one's mid-50s, and then subsequently has been able to use the pandemic time to learn Spanish, has substantially more 'privilege' than someone who has had to spend the last six months working ringing a grocery store cash register, risking his life on a daily basis, for minimum wage.
Quote from: mahagonny on August 23, 2020, 06:58:18 PM
Quote from: writingprof on August 23, 2020, 12:27:06 PM
Treehugger, in this instance it's not about you. Your friend has been captured by an ideology that requires her to despise herself. (I bet any amount of money that she's white.) Because self-hatred is not particularly easy in practice, she's transferring the emotion to you.
The best answer when someone calls you "privileged" is to smile, nod, and check your stock portfolio. (It's doing well!)
Treehugger, from what I've seen here recently, probably uses the moniker ironically. She is not one of the super-'woke' academics of today and is liable to identify some of the absurdity, excessive fixations on political correctness, etc. So she can easily be singled out in conversation as one who is suspected of not giving the concept of white privilege the amount of serious concern it is considered to warrant.
Yes, she is definitely more "woke" than I am & she knows it.
I gave myself this moniker way back in the old forum because once, in a time of great stress, when I felt my world was falling apart, I went down to the local park and literally hugged a big, old tree. I cried & hugged that tree. It was very grounding experience. :)
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 23, 2020, 07:05:21 PM
There is little question but that, like it or not, anyone who has been retired on a comfy pension etc., esp one able to be acquired in one's mid-50s, and then subsequently has been able to use the pandemic time to learn Spanish, has substantially more 'privilege' than someone who has had to spend the last six months working ringing a grocery store cash register, risking his life on a daily basis, for minimum wage.
No denying that, and I was alluding to something a bit like that in my post upthread, and I also had the bad taste to use the occasion to insert a pet cause of of mine (while you didn't), the plight of majority faculty, which is certainly something to be categorically ignored, I expect, for many readers. But the strange thing here is that TH's friend is similarly privileged as herself so it would seem odd to throw it in someone's face they way they did, superciliously.
Quote
Yes, she is definitely more "woke" than I am & she knows it.
so yeah, she's thinking about politics and how she, being a liberal, is automatically more compassionate than you (we) are.
I've looked at many behavioral finance issues and just as a quick summary:
-Financial stability is viewed in relative terms.
-One's immediate circle is a reference point, not others we "know" exist.
-You will not change this perception by pointing out its irrationality any more than your knowledge of the physical impossibility of the MC Escher drawing will cause you to see it the "right" way.
This explains why someone can enjoy and in fact admire rappers who literally throw stacks of money in the air in a video or otherwise brag about their wealth but at the same time be consumed with envy over the next door neighbor who has a slightly better car or the guy in the next cubicle when discovered his bonus was 5% of salary and yours only 3.
The privilege issue is a different matter entirely in that (like almost all terms used by the left to shake others down) they have no objective criteria other than the feelings of the person holding them. If privilege were defined as those with the top 20% of the worlds net worth, those with greater than average incomes, those who have three meals a day or any other observable measurable standard, no one would use or be offended by the term. It only exists to verbally bully people into agreement. It's lack of objective verification means it can only be a personal judgement.
Quote from: jerseyjay on August 23, 2020, 06:09:22 PM
Finally, I am not sure what is the point of only having friends who are like you. I mean, I don't want to be friends with Klan members, or made men in the mafia, or whatever. But within a certain standard deviation, it is nice to have friends who are different than you. Otherwise, why would you have friends?
Where you set that standard deviation is the key to compatible worldviews. Yes, my friends who are into watching all the experimental and non-mainstream films often share things I wouldn't have known existed. However, they wade through a lot of crap and my success rate by focusing on mainstream entertainment and curated other channels is much higher.
In contrast, I have zero friends who think every day that ends in a y needs to be celebrated by heavy drinking and therefore never have to ask how much drinking is worrying and would need intervention.
My friends who love to travel have great stories to tell. At no point will I be taking any trips with them because I find travel for the sake of new experiences extremely unpleasant. We established this situation early so there's never a need to write to the advice column on how to navigate the tradeoffs in shared travel frequency and activities that satisfy no one.
As an atheist, I have many friends who have solid ties to a faith community with regular participation in a specific congregation. I have zero friends who insist that prayer is better than science, but many who believe that every little bit helps during times of uncertainty.
I have zero friends who live lives of scary drama involving drug/alcohol use, frequent bouts of unemployment, frequent bouts of physical violence, frequent bouts of arguing by shouting, frequent visits by child services, frequent negative interactions with the police, and similar indications of bad life choices.
I have friends and chosen family who value relationships, free time, small town life with a low cost of living and other aspects of daily life over maximizing monetary gain. That mindset sometimes results in coming up a little short monetarily, but it's not huge drama that lasts years in entirely foreseeable ways.
None of my friends would privilege cudgel me, even though my household is the most monetarily privileged in the social group (my coworkers are a different story), but they might point out that proposed plans will not let individual X participate at this time, but tweak Y would.
Quote from: downer on August 23, 2020, 12:47:36 PM
I'm all in favor of a social class analysis. Isabel Wilkerson has a new book out, Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents, which sets out the caste system in the US, and that idea seems right to me. There's remarkably little social mobility in the US. But exactly what we should do with the political concept of privilege is not easily answered. I don't think that liberal guilt or all those "privilege quizzes" have been useful. If we were going to make the US a society of equal opportunity, things would need to change radically. Right now, the main effect of raising consciousness about class privilege is to encourage a few liberals to give some money to charity.
Those of us who did move up significantly in social class (I personally went from bottom quintile to top quintile) through sacrifice and hard work to leverage every opportunity are the least easily swayed by arguments that the situation is all a matter of the system keeping people down, especially when we know so many people who didn't even try when given similar opportunities.
Some communities are indeed unresourced and need more money in targeted ways to have reasonable opportunities for their members or need targeted ways to help 'everyone' move away and get a solid start in their new places.
It is simultaneously true that we could do more as a society to equalize opportunity and that many people are worse off than they have to be under the current system through their own repeated entirely foreseeable bad choices.
Being talented enough to complete is PhD is more than hard work and good choices. It is a gift the most don't have. If you don't believe in God, It's random luck. As well, many have similar talent but not a sustained condition of mental health which hinders them and leads to situations others will call 'bad choices.'
Carrying sheetrock at a construction site is hard work too, and done by someone who more likely did not spend his grade school years looking into the faces of pleased teachers who were enjoying the student who makes them look good.
As someone told Ben Franklin, add humility to your list of traits to cultivate.
Quote from: mahagonny on August 24, 2020, 06:35:42 AM
Being talented enough to complete is PhD is more than hard work and good choices.
Not any more. Finishing a graduate degree in the US is now more a matter of not having your life fall apart during the time you're in the program and that's been true for most of my lifetime. It does not require being super brilliant, but it does require having been good at school for a long time and being able to then switch gears to deal well with ambiguity when no one knows.
People from my youth who have good lives now worked hard in various areas, that's true. All of them are middle class, particularly those who went into the skilled trades or continued on the family farm. Not everyone has to be good at school to succeed, but there are definitely good life choices that tend to work out and bad life choices that tend to sink even those who started in a solid position with many resources.
Quote from: downer on August 23, 2020, 12:47:36 PM
I'm all in favor of a social class analysis. Isabel Wilkerson has a new book out, Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents, which sets out the caste system in the US, and that idea seems right to me. There's remarkably little social mobility in the US. But exactly what we should do with the political concept of privilege is not easily answered. I don't think that liberal guilt or all those "privilege quizzes" have been useful. If we were going to make the US a society of equal opportunity, things would need to change radically. Right now, the main effect of raising consciousness about class privilege is to encourage a few liberals to give some money to charity.
No way the country with the best health care in the world is going to make that same health care available to everyone.
I suppose I could have ignored polly's latest attempt to demonstrate that she has an ego the size of Jupiter, believes, stunningly, that she is completely responsible for everything good in her life, AND those who have not succeeded to her level deserve their fate, etc., but, ah, well....
Quote from: polly_mer on August 23, 2020, 11:11:55 AM
Why are you friends with someone who doesn't share your values and world view?
So the world does not end in a white-hot blaze of hatred.
I think if the word "privilege" is replaced with "advantage," then the self-obvious truth of it becomes clear. Yes, white people have a racial advantage over black people, in our society. Yes, rich people have an advantage over poor people. Yes, people who don't need wheelchairs have an advantage over people who do need them. And unquestionably it's important to be aware of that. Nobody should behave as if privilege/advantage is a prize awarded for innate superiority. Nobody should behave as if the obstacles are identical for all of us.
However, in this case, the woman in question seems to have a practice of looking at how privilege/advantage works, so much so that it's carried over into ridiculous realms, such as self-righteously reminding others of their privilege when she benefits from almost exactly the same amount of privilege. I'd guess her subconscious motivation is "The person who first remarks on privilege is morally superior." So, easy enough to develop a response.
Her, some sunny afternoon: My tomatoes have finally ripened!
You, with an attitude of mild and detached wisdom: Having a garden is certainly benefiting from privilege, isn't it?
Another day:
Her: Did you hear that sixteen refugees were imprisoned down in [foreign place]? Terrible.
[And is indeed terrible. But.]
You: Yes. And we must acknowledge our privileged position to be reading this in the news, safe in our houses as white people.
Her, needled that you have arrived at the position of acknowledging privilege first: Certainly. I am aware of my privilege every day.
You: That's as it should be. Of course even being aware of it is a privilege. We all know that.
This may have an extra advantage in that she will talk to you less.
Personally, having seen this in my extended family (my immediate family is essentially rolling in middle-class privilege) and having seen this in several acquaintances across the years...
...people who've had to pull themselves up by their bootstraps often (not always, but often) are equipped with buttons that are very easy to push when advantage/privilege rears itself in one way or another. When people feel that have succeeded because they have had to work harder than we privileged people the bootstrapper is often very resentful and feels the need to remind us non-bootstrappers that we had an easier time of it. I've never understood that. Rather than being intensely proud and self-confident, bootstrappers sometimes have an automatic defense mechanism that kicks in at the slightest hint of class/advantage/privilege. SES can leave a deep wound.
Again, since we were not there, we really don't know what is driving TH's friend so bat-guano crazy. In my life this has been a source of tension around family and, occasionally, friends who did not stay friends very long.
Does anybody remember a study of middle-class students who had low self-esteem because they felt they did not have to struggle as much as other people? It was done some time ago. We non-bootstrappers either tend to be very arrogant or feel embarrassed. Certainly we don't celebrate the highly successful children of cardiologists and corporate attorneys in the same way that we celebrate the highly successful first-generation and low SES students, and maybe we shouldn't.
Don't go overboard. The 'successful' child of a cardiologist was born on third and thinks he hit a triple. The successful child of working, let alone lower/ underclass welfare recipients who spent more money on marijuana than food is much much more worthy of society's kudos and and assorted accolades.
For a guy who wasn't born on third base, is famous, successful and economically comfortable there's the example of Thomas Sowell whose parents were already dead; he grew up in poor all black South Carolina, was raised by a great aunt and her daughters. Ran away from home because in his adolescent stage of rebellion became enemies with the great aunt. He certainly knows not every black person could do things like he has done, because we are all different, but believes they could be doing much more and better for themselves if white people on the left weren't drumming it into their heads that their lack of progress is the white man's fault and not something they can reverse through reasonably hard work, a sense of personal agency, a bit of common sense and avoiding
toxic influences and culture (some of which white people glorify). He's very adamant in his views about where society has gone wrong, but where congratulating oneself for one's success in life his ego is closer to the size of Pluto. But ironically black people are not encouraged to celebrate his kind of success very much. Maybe that will change.
If Thomas Sowell is too unpopular to mention, substitute Morgan Freeman and you get approximately the same example. How many would stop enjoying his movies is they knew about his political views?
Quote...people who've had to pull themselves up by their bootstraps often (not always, but often) are equipped with buttons that are very easy to push when advantage/privilege rears itself in one way or another. When people feel that have succeeded because they have had to work harder than we privileged people the bootstrapper is often very resentful and feels the need to remind us non-bootstrappers that we had an easier time of it. I've never understood that. Rather than being intensely proud and self-confident, bootstrappers sometimes have an automatic defense mechanism that kicks in at the slightest hint of class/advantage/privilege. SES can leave a deep wound.
Ah yes, black people just imagine that racism is operant in their lives, and their failure to make more progress is all because they're hoodwinked into thinking bigotry exists and affects them.
It's funny, I've just been working on 19th-century English food riots, and the same argument was used by the wealthier classes. The agricultural workers were literally starving, as every modern historian agrees. The enclosures that took away the common land that country folk had used to pasture their cow, the Corn Laws that kept the price of grain artificially inflated, the lack of work after the demobbed soldiers came flooding back from the Napoleonic Wars, the utterly inadequate poor relief, and numerous other factors meant that families were desperate. They could not even afford a diet of only bread; many were homeless; many starved. First they pleaded, then they protested, and then, in the face of the government's utter indifference to the reports the government themselves had commissioned, the peasants rioted. They damaged farm machinery. They set fires. They stole things from the wealthy, including a loaf of bread. They marched around at night. They scared the affluent. They demanded relief. They demanded jobs well-paid enough to afford bread.
And what was the response of the authorities? It had all been caused by bad influences, who had filled the gullible heads of the farmworkers with the notion that they were starving. The poor relief was especially to blame, because it encouraged the poor to think that the government might have resources to provide, and therefore made the peasants lazy. Their difficulties were all in their heads.
The authorities bore down on the protestors with troops and cannon. One protestor fled and was shot in the back and killed. No non-protestors were killed. Four protestors were sentenced to die and were executed. The spokesman for the government stood up and said that the protestors claimed they were hungry, but that was clearly untrue. What was the evidence that it was untrue? Well, he himself, a man who had strong opinions on the matter, said it was untrue. That was the evidence.
"But as distress did not incite them to riot, what was the cause, and who urged these persons on? Those cruel and malignant men, that are always representing the country as disgraced and ruined, who would make the people believe that their governors are all corrupt, and have an interest in oppressing them, that the country might be happier and freer but for the machinations of the high and the rich, that all reform is obstinately withheld. It is such language as this that inflames the passions, and operating upon minds incapable of detecting its falsehood, produces an impatience of controul, and a disposition to violate the public peace... Do not let them be told that they are suffering, without being told also that those sufferings will only be temporary, and have not been occasioned by their Government; that what they have already endured has been to preserve all that makes life and country dear and honourable; for their freedom and their independence, the homes of their families, the graves of their fathers, the altars of their God. All were in peril and all have been preserved: and the people of the British Empire may safely stand up and claim the praise and the post of being the freest, the happiest, and the greatest people upon earth."
A few concessions had been made — wages were increased a tad — but this was all reversed as soon as the rioters had been clapped into prison. They made the laws more draconian; they blamed the poor for their own disadvantages twice as vigorously.
To which I say, in the words of Edna St. Vincent Millay, "It's not one damn thing after another, it's the same damn thing over and over."
Apart from the minor point that some of the poor people starved, the main effect was that because nothings had changed, in about another fifteen years, riots broke out again — worse.
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 24, 2020, 09:27:35 PM
Don't go overboard. The 'successful' child of a cardiologist was born on third and thinks he hit a triple. The successful child of working, let alone lower/ underclass welfare recipients who spent more money on marijuana than food is much much more worthy of society's kudos and and assorted accolades.
Yep. That was pretty much exactly what I was thinking of.
We are a paradoxical society in that we both pursue and resent wealth.
I agree with you, Kay, but it is interesting that we feel we much assert this as much as we do.
Quote from: Hegemony on August 24, 2020, 07:04:21 PM
Yes, white people have a racial advantage over black people, in our society.
I will grudgingly accept that this is the case on the whole. But in the professional world occupied by everyone on these fora, the exact opposite is true, and we all know it.
Quote from: Hegemony on August 25, 2020, 07:27:35 AM
Ah yes, black people just imagine that racism is operant in their lives, and their failure to make more progress is all because they're hoodwinked into thinking bigotry exists and affects them.
....
To which I say, in the words of Edna St. Vincent Millay, "It's not one damn thing after another, it's the same damn thing over and over."
The question is not whether many people belonging to any historically disadvantaged group have struggles which the government ought to address; it's whether the focus on addressing these issues should be
group identity. A poor community can be easily and objectively identified by all kinds of indicators that are not based on race, sex, etc., and progress (or the lack thereof) can
also be measured according to those indicators. This doesn't get the whole issue sidetracked into a debate about "systemic" discrimination, which goes down a bottomless rabbit-hole of what counts as "systemic", since the definiton is in constant flux.
Quote from: writingprof on August 25, 2020, 08:19:09 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on August 24, 2020, 07:04:21 PM
Yes, white people have a racial advantage over black people, in our society.
I will grudgingly accept that this is the case on the whole. But in the professional world occupied by everyone on these fora, the exact opposite is true, and we all know it.
I think this is the point of Hegemony's post regarding the corn laws.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 25, 2020, 08:49:41 AM
Quote from: writingprof on August 25, 2020, 08:19:09 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on August 24, 2020, 07:04:21 PM
Yes, white people have a racial advantage over black people, in our society.
I will grudgingly accept that this is the case on the whole. But in the professional world occupied by everyone on these fora, the exact opposite is true, and we all know it.
I think this is the point of Hegemony's post regarding the corn laws.
I didn't get too much from the post at all other than that it was interesting history. Is the point to compare the lot of starving peasants in 19th century to urban blacks of the USA in 2020? I know there is hunger but there is also obesity and a safety net. There is also a popular culture (hip hop) where obesity, as well as other really healthy intelligent things like crime, substance abuse, gun violence and premature death are signs that you're cool. This is a culture with some serious signs of self-inflicted confusion and turmoil. I didn't get the relevance of the rest of it either. Is pretending people rioting over a hunger problem don't have hunger because they are being told that they do and that, not experience, is the reason they believe it analogous to people being told their families are falling apart because of father absence when they can see this for themselves, therefore someone is being mislead?
Quote from: marshwiggle on August 25, 2020, 08:30:25 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on August 25, 2020, 07:27:35 AM
Ah yes, black people just imagine that racism is operant in their lives, and their failure to make more progress is all because they're hoodwinked into thinking bigotry exists and affects them.
....
To which I say, in the words of Edna St. Vincent Millay, "It's not one damn thing after another, it's the same damn thing over and over."
The question is not whether many people belonging to any historically disadvantaged group have struggles which the government ought to address; it's whether the focus on addressing these issues should be group identity. A poor community can be easily and objectively identified by all kinds of indicators that are not based on race, sex, etc., and progress (or the lack thereof) can also be measured according to those indicators. This doesn't get the whole issue sidetracked into a debate about "systemic" discrimination, which goes down a bottomless rabbit-hole of what counts as "systemic", since the definiton is in constant flux.
The point for the woke academics and other activist whites is not for the government to do something that's going to fix the problem. The point is for the government to not be doing enough yet so that their (the academics') research and publishing about systemic racism are necessary, visible, and get them the promotions they want.
but it may be I just didn't get it. Should have stayed in school longer. I'll keep trying.
Quote from: mahagonny on August 25, 2020, 10:19:03 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 25, 2020, 08:49:41 AM
Quote from: writingprof on August 25, 2020, 08:19:09 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on August 24, 2020, 07:04:21 PM
Yes, white people have a racial advantage over black people, in our society.
I will grudgingly accept that this is the case on the whole. But in the professional world occupied by everyone on these fora, the exact opposite is true, and we all know it.
I think this is the point of Hegemony's post regarding the corn laws.
I didn't get too much from the post at all other than that it was interesting history. Is the point to compare the lot of starving peasants in 19th century to urban blacks of the USA in 2020? I know there is hunger but there is also obesity and a safety net. There is also a popular culture (hip hop) where obesity, as well as other really healthy intelligent things like crime, substance abuse, gun violence and premature death are signs that you're cool. This is a culture with some serious signs of self-inflicted confusion and turmoil. I didn't get the relevance of the rest of it either. Is pretending people rioting over a hunger problem don't have hunger because they are being told that they do and that, not experience, is the reason they believe it analogous to people being told their families are falling apart because of father absence when they can see this for themselves, therefore someone is being mislead?
I think the point hegemony was trying to make was that the riots did not lead to reform to fix the underlying issues, and so a decade and a half later they occurred again. Likewise the rioting we're seeing now will undoubtedly recur if something serious is not done about the underlying causes.
Regarding the original post, it sounds to me like an example of the sorts of small eruptions that happen in times like these when everybody is feeling wound up. We kind of have to bear with each other when stuff like this happens.
Quote from: apl68 on August 25, 2020, 12:52:06 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on August 25, 2020, 10:19:03 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 25, 2020, 08:49:41 AM
Quote from: writingprof on August 25, 2020, 08:19:09 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on August 24, 2020, 07:04:21 PM
Yes, white people have a racial advantage over black people, in our society.
I will grudgingly accept that this is the case on the whole. But in the professional world occupied by everyone on these fora, the exact opposite is true, and we all know it.
I think this is the point of Hegemony's post regarding the corn laws.
I didn't get too much from the post at all other than that it was interesting history. Is the point to compare the lot of starving peasants in 19th century to urban blacks of the USA in 2020? I know there is hunger but there is also obesity and a safety net. There is also a popular culture (hip hop) where obesity, as well as other really healthy intelligent things like crime, substance abuse, gun violence and premature death are signs that you're cool. This is a culture with some serious signs of self-inflicted confusion and turmoil. I didn't get the relevance of the rest of it either. Is pretending people rioting over a hunger problem don't have hunger because they are being told that they do and that, not experience, is the reason they believe it analogous to people being told their families are falling apart because of father absence when they can see this for themselves, therefore someone is being mislead?
I think the point hegemony was trying to make was that the riots did not lead to reform to fix the underlying issues, and so a decade and a half later they occurred again. Likewise the rioting we're seeing now will undoubtedly recur if something serious is not done about the underlying causes.
Thank you.
Quote from: Treehugger on August 23, 2020, 04:22:55 AM
For one thing, since March, I have learned another language (Spanish), something I probably would never have done without Covid. Ok, I don't speak Spanish fluently, but now I've read Marquez and Llosa in Spanish, can at least get the gist of what people are saying on Spanish radio and through a online exchange program have met and am conversing with English language learners in Colombia and Peru.
Your mention of conversational partner contacts on another thread reminded me of this. Congratulations on learning Spanish!
If you're brave enough, try some Borges in the original next. Or even Cervantes.
Quote from: apl68 on August 26, 2020, 10:18:36 AM
Quote from: Treehugger on August 23, 2020, 04:22:55 AM
For one thing, since March, I have learned another language (Spanish), something I probably would never have done without Covid. Ok, I don't speak Spanish fluently, but now I've read Marquez and Llosa in Spanish, can at least get the gist of what people are saying on Spanish radio and through a online exchange program have met and am conversing with English language learners in Colombia and Peru.
Your mention of conversational partner contacts on another thread reminded me of this. Congratulations on learning Spanish!
If you're brave enough, try some Borges in the original next. Or even Cervantes.
I just read People En Espanol.
Quote from: ciao_yall on August 26, 2020, 10:29:21 AM
Quote from: apl68 on August 26, 2020, 10:18:36 AM
Quote from: Treehugger on August 23, 2020, 04:22:55 AM
For one thing, since March, I have learned another language (Spanish), something I probably would never have done without Covid. Ok, I don't speak Spanish fluently, but now I've read Marquez and Llosa in Spanish, can at least get the gist of what people are saying on Spanish radio and through a online exchange program have met and am conversing with English language learners in Colombia and Peru.
Your mention of conversational partner contacts on another thread reminded me of this. Congratulations on learning Spanish!
If you're brave enough, try some Borges in the original next. Or even Cervantes.
I just read People En Espanol.
I'd rather grapple with Borges....
Quote from: apl68 on August 26, 2020, 10:42:14 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on August 26, 2020, 10:29:21 AM
Quote from: apl68 on August 26, 2020, 10:18:36 AM
Quote from: Treehugger on August 23, 2020, 04:22:55 AM
For one thing, since March, I have learned another language (Spanish), something I probably would never have done without Covid. Ok, I don't speak Spanish fluently, but now I've read Marquez and Llosa in Spanish, can at least get the gist of what people are saying on Spanish radio and through a online exchange program have met and am conversing with English language learners in Colombia and Peru.
Your mention of conversational partner contacts on another thread reminded me of this. Congratulations on learning Spanish!
If you're brave enough, try some Borges in the original next. Or even Cervantes.
I just read People En Espanol.
I'd rather grapple with Borges....
I was just working on Donald Trump's May 2020 Economic Impact Payment letter which has English on one side and Spanish on another. Trump is very proud to be sending us money. What a guy.
Quote from: writingprof on August 25, 2020, 08:19:09 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on August 24, 2020, 07:04:21 PM
Yes, white people have a racial advantage over black people, in our society.
I will grudgingly accept that this is the case on the whole. But in the professional world occupied by everyone on these fora, the exact opposite is true, and we all know it.
That is a very common logical fallacy, and is also untrue.
"X is true, and we all know it"
I have heard it so many times.
"Jews control the banks, and we all know it"
"Women are not as smart as men, and we all know it"
I could go on, but I think that my point is clear.
Making a false claim regarding a minority group, and then providing "support" by saying "we all know it" is a common logical fallacy and a device that is commonly used by bigots worldwide.
The fact that this is the level of your arguments tells me that you have no factual support for your claims.