The Fora: A Higher Education Community

Quote from: marshwiggle on Today at 11:51:11 AMThere don't seem to be a lot of graduates complaining that they didn't get enough "personal enrichment" out of their degrees. On the other hand, there seems to be quite a few complaining that their job prospects aren't what they expected. So there seems to be more of a mismatch between what students expected regarding employment than regarding personal enrichment.

So, either institutions need to do more "job training" or prospective students need to have a much more blunt message that their degree should not be relied on for employment prospects, but rather for personal enrichment. The problem is that administators don't want to give that message; instead, they keep pointing to statistics that everyone with a degree is better off in employment. (The unsatisfied grads would beg to differ, it seems.)

It should be appreciated that even people who went for "job training" don't seem to be complaining about a lack of personal enrichment, so that goal of PSE actually seems to
be being met.

It's "box-checking" if people, after having completed it, don't think it had any benefit.

Exactly.  So, let's simply get rid of all the box checking.  It serves no purpose.

College should be job training.

QuoteThe question about PhD programs is how many people who completed them are dissatisfied with the resulting outcomes. That's no different than any other programs, "job training" or otherwise.

Is PhD regret a thing?

A PhD ruined my life

Is PhD regret a thing?

Quote from: Parasaurolophus on Today at 09:16:53 AMMaybe some Newslettering, or else starting my referee report.

Pretty well finished the one, started the other.

I wonder what it's going to be like when the students who were in ninth grade and younger during COVID start hitting the colleges?

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on Today at 10:19:58 AM

Quote from: marshwiggle on Today at 05:22:59 AMThe issue of "job training" versus "personal enrichment" often comes down to an issue of depth versus breadth. The examples above show a lack of understanding of the importance of depth.

The most valuable "job training" will be that which takes a long period of sustained focus on developing skills and expertise that cannot be developed otherwise. The examples of "insurance" and "real estate" are specific cases where there are short courses and certification programs. They don't need a degree.

I don't know what you are saying there, buddy.  Why do we need "depth?"  "Depth" in what, exactly?  How much depth do you need to be trained for any job not in the sciences?

There don't seem to be a lot of graduates complaining that they didn't get enough "personal enrichment" out of their degrees. On the other hand, there seems to be quite a few complaining that their job prospects aren't what they expected. So there seems to be more of a mismatch between what students expected regarding employment than regarding personal enrichment.

So, either institutions need to do more "job training" or prospective students need to have a much more blunt message that their degree should not be relied on for employment prospects, but rather for personal enrichment. The problem is that administators don't want to give that message; instead, they keep pointing to statistics that everyone with a degree is better off in employment. (The unsatisfied grads would beg to differ, it seems.)

It should be appreciated that even people who went for "job training" don't seem to be complaining about a lack of personal enrichment, so that goal of PSE actually seems to
be being met.

QuoteYou are correct that real estate does not require a great deal of knowledge, although insurance is much more complex than most people realize----still, we could have people job ready with two solid years of schooling for virtually any corporate job.  Maybe we should just have a "general business degree" instead of specialization.
 

QuoteWhether these specialized programs are in the same or different institutions doesn't matter; the point is that the investment is prolonged and intense. The training isn't just a box-checking exercise.

Exactly.  Why both with "box checking" at all?  The acquisition of knowledge is now "box checking" to some.  Why bother?

It's "box-checking" if people, after having completed it, don't think it had any benefit.

Quote

QuoteThe people looking for personal enrichment will be the ones most interested in, (and potentially most likely to benefit from), lots of breadth. If their goal is personal enrichment, and they're not looking for it to be some kind of golden ticket to employment, then they should be free to choose that kind of education.

Exactly.  We will have the elite institutions and a smattering of SLACs for those students who still want to check boxes on knowledge.

QuoteQuestion: Is a PhD program "job training" for wannabee faculty, especially in fields where there are few places outside academia where a PhD is required? If it's not, why is there so much "adjunct porn" about PhDs without jobs, as if the PhD was assumed to have been automatically followed by solid employment?

For years the adjunct situation has flummoxed and confused you, Marshy.  It has been explained numerous times.  This is very strange.

As for all those wanna be academics, the PhD programs would be shut down, obviously, because there will be no need for them and we will save a lot of money----except for 2 or 3 in each discipline at the Ivies which will supply the box checking schools.

The question about PhD programs is how many people who completed them are dissatisfied with the resulting outcomes. That's no different than any other programs, "job training" or otherwise.

Quote from: Anselm on December 04, 2023, 10:08:08 AMI called 6 places a week ago after I got in trouble again for something I said at work.  I figured that I could gain some ADA protection.  This region is loaded with mental health facilities.  Well, it turns out that they are for addiction, counseling and handing out pills.  I would have to travel 90 miles away and wait 3 to 9 months for an appointment.  I want to get tested for autism, adult ADHD and anxiety.  One local office told me "we don't do the testing but afterwards you can some here to get your pills refilled".  To me that encapsulates healthcare in America, just take some pills.  Last June I was give Busiprone for anxiety but stopped after one week when the nausea kicked in, although the loss of appetite resulted in a loss of 10 pounds in one month, which is good for me.

Apologies if this is stuff you've tried, but you might be able to separate out some of the issues here.

You probably do need a formal diagnosis to get any kind of work accommodations. Obviously, that's frustrating and it sounds like you would also find a diagnosis helpful in other ways. However, you don't need the diagnosis to get some help managing things. A psychiatrist can prescribe you a stimulant for ADHD if they thin it would be helpful based on your description of your symptoms. They also can figure out what might work in terms of the anxiety. Not sure if you've tried other anxiety drugs before, but if something causes unpleasant side effects, there are usually other options-like any of a number of SSRIs.

If you're not seeing a therapist, a good one would probably also be helpful. They also can't diagnose you, but if you find someone with some expertise in neuro-divergent stuff, they can certainly help you figure out some ways to navigate things regardless of whether you meet the full criteria for autism or ADHD or whatever else.

I find many of my colleagues don't understand that either.  Every semester I get some student claiming their professor is giving their final in MY spot.

This is not well-received and the complains are usually very swiftly resolved.

If you want you final early, schedule your class accordingly.

I have found in the last few years that our students are just befuddled by the fact that Final exam week is NOT the normal, usual schedule of classes. And these are NOT freshpeeps- they have been here many semesters and so have been through this drill before.
  Many seem amazed when I show them the university wide schedule for exams!

Quote from: apl68 on Today at 10:10:12 AMI thought about saying something smart alecky about how I'd never seen a final exam contained in the syllabus before.  Then it occurred to me that with many students the syllabus would probably be a pretty safe place to hide the answer key for the final.

It would be the perfect place.  They don't think there is ANYTHING useful in there.

Quote from: kaysixteen on Today at 06:07:10 AMRandom thoughts:

3) Humanities PhDs are indeed more or less just 'job training' for academic positions, or at least traditionally have been conceived and run as such.  Of course, as has also been pointed out regularly here and in the old fora over the years, up through the 90s there was the stated (by academics, administrators, etc) *expectation* that there would in fact be academic work for those completing these degrees.

Kind of, as long as we consider the production of scholarship as part of the job training.

Quote from: Anselm on December 04, 2023, 07:57:56 PM

Quote from: Puget on December 04, 2023, 07:03:46 PM

Quote from: Anselm on December 04, 2023, 10:08:08 AMI called 6 places a week ago after I got in trouble again for something I said at work.  I figured that I could gain some ADA protection.  This region is loaded with mental health facilities.  Well, it turns out that they are for addiction, counseling and handing out pills.  I would have to travel 90 miles away and wait 3 to 9 months for an appointment.  I want to get tested for autism, adult ADHD and anxiety.  One local office told me "we don't do the testing but afterwards you can some here to get your pills refilled".  To me that encapsulates healthcare in America, just take some pills.  Last June I was give Busiprone for anxiety but stopped after one week when the nausea kicked in, although the loss of appetite resulted in a loss of 10 pounds in one month, which is good for me.

Sorry you are having trouble accessing assessment! A couple of ideas--

1. Is there a university within striking distance that has a clinical psychology PhD program? Such programs almost always have a teaching clinic, and assessment is usually a big part of what they offer, since all the students have to be trained in assessment.They may not take insurance but often have a sliding scale. 

2. Many psychologists these days see Telehealth patients. Psychology Today, while not recommended as a publication, has a provider database where you can filter by specialty, insurance, etc. You can see if there are any neuropsychologists (the specialty you want for ASD and ADHD assessment) who do Telehealth and accept your insurance.

I tried option 1 at a university and that was one of the distant places with a long wait.  Option 2 seems workable but I do so much better talking to people in person, face to face, which is another reason why I suspect being on the spectrum.

For assessment purposes, it's actually a good thing for the assessor to see how you function in your non-ideal mode of interaction, especially if video conferencing and other non-face to face interaction is something you have to do with work and are struggling with. So I wouldn't write off the telehealth option, but you may want to just go ahead and get on the waitlist for the university clinic in the meantime, and if you have any schedule flexibility you can let them know you'd like to informed about slots that open up due to cancelations.