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Quote from: arcturus on June 14, 2023, 11:41:45 AM

Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 14, 2023, 10:30:04 AMI'm pretty sure I got plagiarism bingo in my meeting with my latest plagiarist.

• I'm not a cheater
• I've never seen those websites that Turn It In says I plagiarized from
• I don't know how it could be that my assignment has the same words as that website
• If I plagiarized, it was unintentional
• Is there any way I can re-do the assignment for credit?
• I've never been accused of this before

Why is it that after these meetings I feel so drained when I'm not the one who screwed up?

I am sorry that you had to experience this. I also feel drained by these meetings. I think it is due to the cognitive dissonance between what the student is saying and what we know is true. As academics, we value truth and rational argument. To be gas-lighted by students is antithetical to our very being.

Plus, I'm sure that most academics would like to help their students out.  It's stressful to be in the position of wanting to help somebody who is trying that diligently to self-sabotage.

Quote from: apl68 on June 14, 2023, 12:56:42 PM

Quote from: arcturus on June 14, 2023, 11:41:45 AM

Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 14, 2023, 10:30:04 AMI'm pretty sure I got plagiarism bingo in my meeting with my latest plagiarist.

• I'm not a cheater
• I've never seen those websites that Turn It In says I plagiarized from
• I don't know how it could be that my assignment has the same words as that website
• If I plagiarized, it was unintentional
• Is there any way I can re-do the assignment for credit?
• I've never been accused of this before

Why is it that after these meetings I feel so drained when I'm not the one who screwed up?

I am sorry that you had to experience this. I also feel drained by these meetings. I think it is due to the cognitive dissonance between what the student is saying and what we know is true. As academics, we value truth and rational argument. To be gas-lighted by students is antithetical to our very being.

Plus, I'm sure that most academics would like to help their students out.  It's stressful to be in the position of wanting to help somebody who is trying that diligently to self-sabotage.

Or maybe, like me, the older I get, the more I ache after struggling not to throttle the living snot out of the lyin' little liars.

Ahem.

Quote from: AmLitHist on June 14, 2023, 01:54:57 PM

Quote from: apl68 on June 14, 2023, 12:56:42 PM

Quote from: arcturus on June 14, 2023, 11:41:45 AM

Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 14, 2023, 10:30:04 AMI'm pretty sure I got plagiarism bingo in my meeting with my latest plagiarist.

• I'm not a cheater
• I've never seen those websites that Turn It In says I plagiarized from
• I don't know how it could be that my assignment has the same words as that website
• If I plagiarized, it was unintentional
• Is there any way I can re-do the assignment for credit?
• I've never been accused of this before

Why is it that after these meetings I feel so drained when I'm not the one who screwed up?

I am sorry that you had to experience this. I also feel drained by these meetings. I think it is due to the cognitive dissonance between what the student is saying and what we know is true. As academics, we value truth and rational argument. To be gas-lighted by students is antithetical to our very being.

Plus, I'm sure that most academics would like to help their students out.  It's stressful to be in the position of wanting to help somebody who is trying that diligently to self-sabotage.

Or maybe, like me, the older I get, the more I ache after struggling not to throttle the living snot out of the lyin' little liars.

Ahem.

The two feelings aren't always mutually exclusive....

I swear to all that is holy. I have an extremely egregious case of cheating in my online class. Why do they do this? I know the answer, but what a pain in the ass! This student deliberately moves the camera away from stu's face DURING the test. Did you think the system wouldn't flag it? Ugh!!!

I have a student who has some kind of learning disability, although she evinces astonishment when I inquire delicately about whether she has accommodations. "Oh no!" she says, "I don't need those! I'm just stupid because I don't think hard enough!" I try to persuade her to look into testing. "No," she says, "there's nothing to do about my brain because it's just stupid!" She looks quite cheerful as she says this.

But there is indeed something very wrong in there. She can't remember things from one moment to the next. She can't remember her middle name. She misunderstands every assignment to a severe degree.

One of the assignments was to pick a passage from the novel we are reading and write about how it describes the personality and motivations of the main character (a woman). This student chose a passage from a different novel, one we are not reading, apparently one chosen at random at the campus bookstore. She hadn't read this entire other novel, but just picked a paragraph from it. When questioned, she argued that it was also about a girl.

She also bombarded me with eight or nine emails expressing panic that she would not pass the class. Then she failed to turn up to the final exam.

I also asked her why her final paper was late. In response she turned in two separate final papers. Both were actually on the required text, but both misunderstood the assignment severely.

I have conferred with other profs. They all agree that something is very wrong here. But it seems utterly useless to try to persuade the student herself that things are not connecting.

Quote from: Hegemony on June 15, 2023, 07:24:02 PMI have a student who has some kind of learning disability, although she evinces astonishment when I inquire delicately about whether she has accommodations. "Oh no!" she says, "I don't need those! I'm just stupid because I don't think hard enough!" I try to persuade her to look into testing. "No," she says, "there's nothing to do about my brain because it's just stupid!" She looks quite cheerful as she says this.

But there is indeed something very wrong in there. She can't remember things from one moment to the next. She can't remember her middle name. She misunderstands every assignment to a severe degree.

One of the assignments was to pick a passage from the novel we are reading and write about how it describes the personality and motivations of the main character (a woman). This student chose a passage from a different novel, one we are not reading, apparently one chosen at random at the campus bookstore. She hadn't read this entire other novel, but just picked a paragraph from it. When questioned, she argued that it was also about a girl.

She also bombarded me with eight or nine emails expressing panic that she would not pass the class. Then she failed to turn up to the final exam.

I also asked her why her final paper was late. In response she turned in two separate final papers. Both were actually on the required text, but both misunderstood the assignment severely.

I have conferred with other profs. They all agree that something is very wrong here. But it seems utterly useless to try to persuade the student herself that things are not connecting.

Oh dear.  Does the student have a good advisor?  What is her career plan?

Quote from: Hegemony on June 15, 2023, 07:24:02 PMI have a student who has some kind of learning disability, although she evinces astonishment when I inquire delicately about whether she has accommodations. "Oh no!" she says, "I don't need those! I'm just stupid because I don't think hard enough!" I try to persuade her to look into testing. "No," she says, "there's nothing to do about my brain because it's just stupid!" She looks quite cheerful as she says this.

But there is indeed something very wrong in there. She can't remember things from one moment to the next. She can't remember her middle name. She misunderstands every assignment to a severe degree.

One of the assignments was to pick a passage from the novel we are reading and write about how it describes the personality and motivations of the main character (a woman). This student chose a passage from a different novel, one we are not reading, apparently one chosen at random at the campus bookstore. She hadn't read this entire other novel, but just picked a paragraph from it. When questioned, she argued that it was also about a girl.

She also bombarded me with eight or nine emails expressing panic that she would not pass the class. Then she failed to turn up to the final exam.

I also asked her why her final paper was late. In response she turned in two separate final papers. Both were actually on the required text, but both misunderstood the assignment severely.

I have conferred with other profs. They all agree that something is very wrong here. But it seems utterly useless to try to persuade the student herself that things are not connecting.

The saddest thing is the bolded is probably repeating the message she has gotten from important adults in her life, leaving her with all this internalized self-blame and shame. Obviously you can't force her to get evaluated, but I'd keep gently nudging by describing the services the accessibility office can offer, and how the goal isn't to "fix" her brain, but to help her find ways to succeed in achieving her goals.

Quote from: Hegemony on June 15, 2023, 07:24:02 PMI have a student who has some kind of learning disability, although she evinces astonishment when I inquire delicately about whether she has accommodations. "Oh no!" she says, "I don't need those! I'm just stupid because I don't think hard enough!" I try to persuade her to look into testing. "No," she says, "there's nothing to do about my brain because it's just stupid!" She looks quite cheerful as she says this.

But there is indeed something very wrong in there. She can't remember things from one moment to the next. She can't remember her middle name. She misunderstands every assignment to a severe degree.

One of the assignments was to pick a passage from the novel we are reading and write about how it describes the personality and motivations of the main character (a woman). This student chose a passage from a different novel, one we are not reading, apparently one chosen at random at the campus bookstore. She hadn't read this entire other novel, but just picked a paragraph from it. When questioned, she argued that it was also about a girl.

She also bombarded me with eight or nine emails expressing panic that she would not pass the class. Then she failed to turn up to the final exam.

I also asked her why her final paper was late. In response she turned in two separate final papers. Both were actually on the required text, but both misunderstood the assignment severely.

I have conferred with other profs. They all agree that something is very wrong here. But it seems utterly useless to try to persuade the student herself that things are not connecting.

Long COVID? Sadly, COVID affects the brain and many people don't realize how severely it has affected their abilities to think or complete tasks.

Quote from: MarathonRunner on June 16, 2023, 11:54:29 AM

Quote from: Hegemony on June 15, 2023, 07:24:02 PMI have a student who has some kind of learning disability, although she evinces astonishment when I inquire delicately about whether she has accommodations. "Oh no!" she says, "I don't need those! I'm just stupid because I don't think hard enough!" I try to persuade her to look into testing. "No," she says, "there's nothing to do about my brain because it's just stupid!" She looks quite cheerful as she says this.

But there is indeed something very wrong in there. She can't remember things from one moment to the next. She can't remember her middle name. She misunderstands every assignment to a severe degree.

One of the assignments was to pick a passage from the novel we are reading and write about how it describes the personality and motivations of the main character (a woman). This student chose a passage from a different novel, one we are not reading, apparently one chosen at random at the campus bookstore. She hadn't read this entire other novel, but just picked a paragraph from it. When questioned, she argued that it was also about a girl.

She also bombarded me with eight or nine emails expressing panic that she would not pass the class. Then she failed to turn up to the final exam.

I also asked her why her final paper was late. In response she turned in two separate final papers. Both were actually on the required text, but both misunderstood the assignment severely.

I have conferred with other profs. They all agree that something is very wrong here. But it seems utterly useless to try to persuade the student herself that things are not connecting.

Long COVID? Sadly, COVID affects the brain and many people don't realize how severely it has affected their abilities to think or complete tasks.

That seems quite unlikely based on the description. There are reports of increased anxiety, PTSD, and brain fog. Obviously, those things could cause all kinds of issues with classwork, but they aren't likely to cause someone to forget their middle name, or lose all ability to understand a relatively simple assignment. That would involve severe brain damage and I've seen nothing to suggest that long covid is associated with anything like that.

Banging my head in advance.
A grad student who has been a PITA all session is about to fail one of my summer courses. Student has an advisor who sees themselves as an "advocate" for their students. I fully expect a contentious grade appeal in which I will be accused of being ableist, and I will probably be pressured to pass the student anyway or allow them to re-do all of the work (the student has asked to re-do multiple assignments after receiving their poor grades). I'm NTT and have zilch power in the department. I admit I'm having thoughts of jockeying the grades on the final assignments so the student earns a bare pass just to avoid all of the upcoming hell. I won't, but it sure would be easier.

Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 15, 2023, 02:19:46 PMI swear to all that is holy. I have an extremely egregious case of cheating in my online class. Why do they do this? I know the answer, but what a pain in the ass! This student deliberately moves the camera away from stu's face DURING the test. Did you think the system wouldn't flag it? Ugh!!!

But, wait... there's more, as Ron Popeil used to say. I found at least FOUR more. SMH.

Quote from: Hegemony on June 15, 2023, 07:24:02 PMI have a student who has some kind of learning disability, although she evinces astonishment when I inquire delicately about whether she has accommodations. "Oh no!" she says, "I don't need those! I'm just stupid because I don't think hard enough!" I try to persuade her to look into testing. "No," she says, "there's nothing to do about my brain because it's just stupid!" She looks quite cheerful as she says this.

But there is indeed something very wrong in there. She can't remember things from one moment to the next. She can't remember her middle name. She misunderstands every assignment to a severe degree.

One of the assignments was to pick a passage from the novel we are reading and write about how it describes the personality and motivations of the main character (a woman). This student chose a passage from a different novel, one we are not reading, apparently one chosen at random at the campus bookstore. She hadn't read this entire other novel, but just picked a paragraph from it. When questioned, she argued that it was also about a girl.

She also bombarded me with eight or nine emails expressing panic that she would not pass the class. Then she failed to turn up to the final exam.

I also asked her why her final paper was late. In response she turned in two separate final papers. Both were actually on the required text, but both misunderstood the assignment severely.

I have conferred with other profs. They all agree that something is very wrong here. But it seems utterly useless to try to persuade the student herself that things are not connecting.

Echoing others who said she's been taught to think this way. Sad.

There is definitely something wrong with my "stupid" student. I wouldn't use the word "stupid," but I might privately use the word "incapable." For instance, the case of the redone assignment:

As I said, the assignment was something like "Choose a paragraph that describes a character in Middlemarch. Comment on how the paragraph adds to our understanding of the character's motivations and values."

So the student chose some random other book and wrote stuff like "Emily is nice to puppies and that is a good thing. Emily's puppy is named Spike. Emily likes her puppy. Puppies are good things to have." And a little more like that. So I said, "Who's Emily? You're supposed to be writing about a character in our novel, Middlemarch. So your analysis should be about Dorothea or Causabon or one of the characters in the novel."

So the student turns in a revised version. It reads: "Dorothea is nice to puppies and that is a good thing. Dorothea's puppy is named Spike. Dorothea likes her puppy. Puppies are good things to have." Etc.

(No, Dorothea does not have a puppy named Spike in Middlemarch.)

Yes, the assignment was verbatim the same, only with the name of a Middlemarch character inserted.

It was also supposed to be 250+ words and it was about 60 words.

This is really the most ________________ (fill in the blank) student I have ever had.

Quote from: Hegemony on June 19, 2023, 04:11:57 AMThere is definitely something wrong with my "stupid" student. I wouldn't use the word "stupid," but I might privately use the word "incapable." For instance, the case of the redone assignment:

As I said, the assignment was something like "Choose a paragraph that describes a character in Middlemarch. Comment on how the paragraph adds to our understanding of the character's motivations and values."

So the student chose some random other book and wrote stuff like "Emily is nice to puppies and that is a good thing. Emily's puppy is named Spike. Emily likes her puppy. Puppies are good things to have." And a little more like that. So I said, "Who's Emily? You're supposed to be writing about a character in our novel, Middlemarch. So your analysis should be about Dorothea or Causabon or one of the characters in the novel."

So the student turns in a revised version. It reads: "Dorothea is nice to puppies and that is a good thing. Dorothea's puppy is named Spike. Dorothea likes her puppy. Puppies are good things to have." Etc.

(No, Dorothea does not have a puppy named Spike in Middlemarch.)

Yes, the assignment was verbatim the same, only with the name of a Middlemarch character inserted.

It was also supposed to be 250+ words and it was about 60 words.

This is really the most ________________ (fill in the blank) student I have ever had.

This is really sad. College appears to be a bad fit for Stu who sounds like a special-needs individual. Someone in Stu's middle or high school should have made sure that Stu had the appropriate support to see hu through school and beyond.

Quote from: Hegemony on June 19, 2023, 04:11:57 AMThere is definitely something wrong with my "stupid" student. I wouldn't use the word "stupid," but I might privately use the word "incapable." For instance, the case of the redone assignment:

As I said, the assignment was something like "Choose a paragraph that describes a character in Middlemarch. Comment on how the paragraph adds to our understanding of the character's motivations and values."

So the student chose some random other book and wrote stuff like "Emily is nice to puppies and that is a good thing. Emily's puppy is named Spike. Emily likes her puppy. Puppies are good things to have." And a little more like that. So I said, "Who's Emily? You're supposed to be writing about a character in our novel, Middlemarch. So your analysis should be about Dorothea or Causabon or one of the characters in the novel."

So the student turns in a revised version. It reads: "Dorothea is nice to puppies and that is a good thing. Dorothea's puppy is named Spike. Dorothea likes her puppy. Puppies are good things to have." Etc.

(No, Dorothea does not have a puppy named Spike in Middlemarch.)

Yes, the assignment was verbatim the same, only with the name of a Middlemarch character inserted.

It was also supposed to be 250+ words and it was about 60 words.

This is really the most ________________ (fill in the blank) student I have ever had.

Document, document, document. She's definitely got a learning disability, but you have zero ability to help her if she refuses services and/or accommodations. Have you contacted the disabilities office/staff?  They can't tell you if she has a documented disability or accommodations, but they can reconfirm that they know who she is.  I'd bet she's just not wanting to feel different.  Maybe they can speak with her and explain the academic peril she is courting by refusing help.  You really can't do very much to help her if she won't help herself.  All you can realistically offer is the same help you'd give any other student.  Good Luck.