The Fora: A Higher Education Community

Quote from: ciao_yall on October 21, 2023, 11:06:59 AM

Quote from: Larimar on October 21, 2023, 10:28:53 AMI gave a quiz last week and got a shock when I saw the results. It was a low-stakes, multiple choice quiz on the three classic persuasive appeals. The questions essentially would take a quote from one of the readings the class has done up until now, and ask which appeal it exemplifies: logos, ethos, or pathos.

Two students passed, one with a D.

I'd lectured on the concept, assigned the textbook chapters, and posted an online video for them to watch on the LMS that also explains it, all before assigning the quiz. I hadn't given this quiz before; I wrote it for this term. I have no idea what went wrong. Any ideas or advice?

Thanks,
Larimar

Did you do an in-class activity in which they brought in examples of the 3 concepts? I find that my lecturing goes in one ear and out the other. Videos don't do much. But if they are talking and applying, they really pay attention to each other.

Sometimes I'd do a followup after something like this. Maybe a "group quiz," repackaging the lesson in a different way. Then average the grades of the two assignments to replace the original?

Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 18, 2023, 03:50:05 AM

Quote from: Puget on October 17, 2023, 12:51:59 PMI've now had two students today ask for scheduled time to meet because they say they can't come to office hours, then give me a list of available times that  include my office hours.
This sort of lack of reading comprehension and attention to posted information may go a long way to explaining the poor class performance they are meeting to talk with me about.

Yep. I've had students, this semester, ask me when, and IF, I have office hours. Um, there is this thing called a syllabus which states exactly when I have office hours that I reviewed on the 1st day of class and that I reference EVERY class (for the course schedule). Frustrating!

A couple of years ago I had a student's parent contact the dean, complaining that his son had gotten behind due to a medical situation but was unable to meet with me because he wasn't available during my office hours.  The dean called me to verify that I was willing to meet with students at other times.  I assured him I was, but that said student had never requested a meeting.  A couple of days later, the student did contact me for a meeting.  I think you can guess when he wanted to meet...

Quote from: RatGuy on October 21, 2023, 02:57:02 PM

Quote from: ciao_yall on October 21, 2023, 11:06:59 AM

Quote from: Larimar on October 21, 2023, 10:28:53 AMI gave a quiz last week and got a shock when I saw the results. It was a low-stakes, multiple choice quiz on the three classic persuasive appeals. The questions essentially would take a quote from one of the readings the class has done up until now, and ask which appeal it exemplifies: logos, ethos, or pathos.

Two students passed, one with a D.

I'd lectured on the concept, assigned the textbook chapters, and posted an online video for them to watch on the LMS that also explains it, all before assigning the quiz. I hadn't given this quiz before; I wrote it for this term. I have no idea what went wrong. Any ideas or advice?

Thanks,
Larimar

Did you do an in-class activity in which they brought in examples of the 3 concepts? I find that my lecturing goes in one ear and out the other. Videos don't do much. But if they are talking and applying, they really pay attention to each other.

Sometimes I'd do a followup after something like this. Maybe a "group quiz," repackaging the lesson in a different way. Then average the grades of the two assignments to replace the original?

These are great ideas. Thanks. I had to cancel the in-class activity I had planned because I was out with Covid. Having the students bring in things could replace it. That'll make the final-grade math easier at the end of the semester as well!  :)

Quote from: downer on October 21, 2023, 10:35:25 AM

Quote from: Larimar on October 21, 2023, 10:28:53 AMI gave a quiz last week and got a shock when I saw the results. It was a low-stakes, multiple choice quiz on the three classic persuasive appeals. The questions essentially would take a quote from one of the readings the class has done up until now, and ask which appeal it exemplifies: logos, ethos, or pathos.

Two students passed, one with a D.

I'd lectured on the concept, assigned the textbook chapters, and posted an online video for them to watch on the LMS that also explains it, all before assigning the quiz. I hadn't given this quiz before; I wrote it for this term. I have no idea what went wrong. Any ideas or advice?

Thanks,
Larimar

The obvious advice is to let the students fail. They seem intent on doing so, so why get in their way?
These days, faculty often face obstacles to handing out lots of F grades.
How free are you to fail most of them?

Thank you too downer for your reply. I had been seriously considering just letting the students fail. There would probably be whining if I did, even though this is an incredibly low-stakes quiz. I am an adjunct, so I have no status. I haven't run into this scenario before, at least not anywhere near to this extent, so I don't know how far my department would have my back. They might; they treat me about as well as an adjunct could ask. I'm not willing to count on it though.

Quote from: Larimar on October 22, 2023, 01:53:57 PMso I don't know how far my department would have my back. They might; they treat me about as well as an adjunct could ask. I'm not willing to count on it though.

Ask your chair for guidance.  Nothing bothers a Chair more than being blindsided by a mob of disgruntled students.  If they will back you, they will say so.  If they won't, you'll hear that.  Act accordingly.

Quote from: Larimar on October 22, 2023, 01:53:57 PM

Quote from: downer on October 21, 2023, 10:35:25 AM

Quote from: Larimar on October 21, 2023, 10:28:53 AMI gave a quiz last week and got a shock when I saw the results. It was a low-stakes, multiple choice quiz on the three classic persuasive appeals. The questions essentially would take a quote from one of the readings the class has done up until now, and ask which appeal it exemplifies: logos, ethos, or pathos.

Two students passed, one with a D.

I'd lectured on the concept, assigned the textbook chapters, and posted an online video for them to watch on the LMS that also explains it, all before assigning the quiz. I hadn't given this quiz before; I wrote it for this term. I have no idea what went wrong. Any ideas or advice?

Thanks,
Larimar

The obvious advice is to let the students fail. They seem intent on doing so, so why get in their way?
These days, faculty often face obstacles to handing out lots of F grades.
How free are you to fail most of them?

Thank you too downer for your reply. I had been seriously considering just letting the students fail. There would probably be whining if I did, even though this is an incredibly low-stakes quiz. I am an adjunct, so I have no status. I haven't run into this scenario before, at least not anywhere near to this extent, so I don't know how far my department would have my back. They might; they treat me about as well as an adjunct could ask. I'm not willing to count on it though.

If this is actually a low stakes quiz, then I don't imagine the students are really going to react too badly to failing it, at least not if you frame it well. I would start by reminding them that it isn't a big deal by itself for the overall grade, but that this is an important concept for future assignments that won't be so low stakes. After that, I'd try asking the students for an honest assessment of what happened. Did the students get confused by something about the quiz. Did they not understand how to apply the ideas? Did they all have midterms last week and barely looked at the material? Was it homecoming that week and they were all too drunk and hungover to do the work? Depending on what you figure out, you can decide how to proceed.

So one of my obviously brilliant students asked me if today was the last lab. I said, "What?" Stu repeated the question and backed it up with the 'reasoning' that there were no more labs online on the course page. I told the student that's because I didn't open them yet, since they're in the future and that if stu was unsure, then stu could check the syllabus which has a course schedule in it. You'd think that the stu would realize that we're in the middle of the semester, so NO, we're not done with lab yet. Wtf?

So I am hoist by my own petard. I teach a really fun and interesting but rather niche course, and the university is always breathing down my neck because it gets marginal enrollment. Say the enrollment minimum is 20; the course usually enrolls 21 or 22. And then sometimes a few drop and we're at 19, which makes alarm bells go off at the budget office, and they send thugs over with heavy batons to interrogate me about why I persist in teaching such a marginal class. Meanwhile, in class, the students who remain are all there because they love the niche subject, and we have a lovely time and it's always my most engaged and rewarding class.

But as the thugs with batons become more threatening, I put the course through the process to get it approved for general-education credit. So now it counts for requirements, and students are beating down my door trying to get into the class. And the class fills up with these gen-ed students, edging out many of the enthusiastic students.

And now the teaching is miserable. The students don't want to be there. They just spotted a gen-ed course they thought they could manage without much effort. They don't come and sometimes even tell me why. ("It was my one-month anniversary of getting together with my boyfriend so we wanted to go out.") They are failing the quizzes. They don't study. They don't see the point of the subject at all. I see that I really did a number on myself in trying to rescue the class from low enrollment. I am dreading the rest of the semester.

I get the gen ed student crisis-- Latin did that for me.... so what's your solution for *this* problem?

No solution except endurance.

Quote from: Hegemony on October 23, 2023, 05:45:06 PMSo I am hoist by my own petard. I teach a really fun and interesting but rather niche course, and the university is always breathing down my neck because it gets marginal enrollment. Say the enrollment minimum is 20; the course usually enrolls 21 or 22. And then sometimes a few drop and we're at 19, which makes alarm bells go off at the budget office, and they send thugs over with heavy batons to interrogate me about why I persist in teaching such a marginal class. Meanwhile, in class, the students who remain are all there because they love the niche subject, and we have a lovely time and it's always my most engaged and rewarding class.

But as the thugs with batons become more threatening, I put the course through the process to get it approved for general-education credit. So now it counts for requirements, and students are beating down my door trying to get into the class. And the class fills up with these gen-ed students, edging out many of the enthusiastic students.

And now the teaching is miserable. The students don't want to be there. They just spotted a gen-ed course they thought they could manage without much effort. They don't come and sometimes even tell me why. ("It was my one-month anniversary of getting together with my boyfriend so we wanted to go out.") They are failing the quizzes. They don't study. They don't see the point of the subject at all. I see that I really did a number on myself in trying to rescue the class from low enrollment. I am dreading the rest of the semester.

If there's ever a discussion about the "value" of gen ed, this needs to be part of it.

Day 1 - Scare the bejeesus out of the class.  Slackers will bail.

Student comes to office hours to talk about his 69% exam grade. I ask him how he studied and it is all passive re-reading/re-watching lecture videos AND he doesn't take notes. We talk about active study strategies -- generally students are very open to trying these when I explain how much better they work. Not this student though-- he is absolutely resistant to trying anything different, and just keeps saying that the way he studied has worked for him before so there must be something he's "just not getting" about what I'm looking for. So we go over the exam, and what he's "not getting" is that he has to able to recall the information and actually answer the questions (one he mostly left blank). I point out as gently as I can that here is direct evidence that he couldn't recall the information, and that the strategies we just talked about that he does't want to try would help him recall the information next time. Does he want to try them? No, he does not. OK kid, I tried, continued poor performance at this point is entirely on you.

Just past the mid-point, and 7 of 23 students are on track to pass my online course.  5 of them haven't done any work yet.

Quote from: FishProf on October 24, 2023, 10:41:37 AMJust past the mid-point, and 7 of 23 students are on track to pass my online course.  5 of them haven't done any work yet.

Ugh.  Yet another reason I really don't want to do any online teaching.  It sounds demoralizing, especially if the "powers that be" don't realize that the failure rate in online classes will be higher than in-person classes.