OTHER Problems at Libraries

[kaysixteen]

I suppose I should not take the bait, but what the heck: what should a proper Christian attitude towards narcotics addiction and narcotics addicts be, and on what biblical basis does this proper attitude rest?

[kaysixteen]

At our local Big Box Retail Emporium, the attitude of mgmt seems to be more or less hands-off in terms of doing anything about junkies and gangbangers, so long as they do not actually show weapons, steal, or fight.  I have had customers complain about being harassed by junkies in the parking lot, aggressively looking for donations, and I just yesterday had a guy complain about a junkie shooting up in the men's room.   I told mgmt, and he went into the room and asked the guy if he was alright-- he had not od'd and was not unconscious.  He said he was fine, so mgmt left.   What if the next person to enter said lavatory was an 8yo?  And no, not all pub libraries deal with this problem, though it is increasing.  Honest, law-abiding citizens have rights too, and their rights to free, safe, and comfortable access into and use of a pub library simply *absolutely trump* the 'rights' of junkies to hang out there and act aggressively.

I confess, my understanding of Christian ethics is hands-on, Puritanical, and favors coercion.   I have no truck with the notion that Jesus wants us to allow junkies to remain junkies, esp if they have children.  And I think it appalling and just plain contrary to Christ's teachings, to allow the mentally ill to remain homeless on the streets, wallowing in their own delusions.  Who the hell thinks that is ok, save addle-brained liberals who complain that forced institionalization of such individuals somehow violates their 'rights', or their 'agency', or cynical, essentially evil, libertarians who do not want to pay taxes and do not care about their fellow man.   I agree with Oliver Wendell Holmes, when he teaches that he likes paying taxes, because in so doing he is 'buying civilization'.  We need to acknowledge that fixing these problems will indeed require us to be willing to pony up real tax moneys to do so, and then, well, do it.

[nebo113]

We need to acknowledge that fixing these problems will indeed require us to be willing to pony up real tax moneys to do so, and then, well, do it.

I agree.  I disagree with dehumanizing those in desperate need of help by calling them "scumbag junkies."  Jesus didn't dehumanize those in need.

[jimbogumbo]

Kay, I typed that while tending to an ill spouse. If you've remembered my previous posts, you know that I (and almost everyone I see post, maybe all) believe the homeless, addicts, and mentally ill deserve our support. That includes housing, treatment, help transitioning when possible to being self-supporting. FWIW my sister was a head librarian in two different types os cities for years, and has gone on to study ways to help homeless people gather information to do so. She regularly works at support centers, and hasn't had what many here would call a traditional Thanksgiving for 30+ years as she spends the day at a soup kitchen. I admire her.

My intense reaction was to your characterization of scumbag drug users. That is what you see. I see one of us with addiction. I see the women my church supports who have lost everything. I see the folks at McDonald's who are preparing to sit and beg on the corners with those ubiquitous card board signs. They pool resources, and pay for cheap food. And yes, some pay for for cheap wine and drugs. One is at breakfast almost every day. Most days he is quiet and keeps to himself. Some days he sleeps until the staff or a friend rouse him and ask him to leave. Some days he talks animatedly to the non-existent entity he sits beside. Twice he's been so agitated the police were called.

The population I see every day skews old, and the young among are aging fast.They cannot be employed, because they are ill, hurt, old. I don't see scumbags; I see us.

Your last paragraph was to me (except for one sentence) what I see as a proper Christian attitude. The sentence is of course your core, and I'll admit to distaste for that attitude:

"I confess, my understanding of Christian ethics is hands-on, Puritanical, and favors coercion."

I suspect if Jonathon Edwards were alive you'd be in one of the pews; I'd be trying to get as far away as possible.

[AmLitHist]

I suppose I should not take the bait, but what the heck: what should a proper Christian attitude towards narcotics addiction and narcotics addicts be, and on what biblical basis does this proper attitude rest?

How about Matthew 7:12: "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets," for starters, followed with an application of John 13:34-35: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

I'm not a Christian and don't claim to be, but how about trying just being decent to others? I was raised in the church and have focused a good deal of my scholarship on American religious tradition, so I have a pretty extensive working knowledge of the gospels; I don't recall reading anywhere that says true Christianity is grounded in coercion.

But what do I know? I don't live among the junkies and scumbags out here in the sticks--that is, if you don't count the half dozen opioid and meth obituaries in the local paper every week, the multiple outreach programs run in our town of ~7,000 people, and the literal dozens of people living in their cars or in tents (or less) on the streets/country side roads or in the woods and remote farm fields in this area.

Our oldest child has TBI, bipolar II, and a medical weed card. There are plenty of days when they're in crisis and would likely present as one of your despised "scumbag junkies." ALHS and I have driven ourselves into financial and emotional bankruptcy trying to help them and to keep a roof over their head for over a decade, not to avoid inconveniencing you, but for their own protection from those like you who might be inconvenienced and/or outraged by their existence.

So, yes, the blithe assertion of "forcing them to stop being" "scumbag junkies" drew a "wow" from me. It must be affirming to have the luxury of pontificating from atop a high-horse. Every single one of those people you hate would force to change (like that's even possible!) has a story. I pity anyone who can't be bothered to acknowledge that. These people (including our family) don't want your approval or your pity. We just deserve the dignity to be treated as human beings who haven't received that "grace of God" which allows some people the satisfaction of looking down on us. If there are only two options--being where my family finds ourselves today, or taking your attitude--I'll stick with ours, thanks.

TL; DR version: read your Bible and do what your Jesus did and told you to do.

[Parasaurolophus]

My little brother started using heroin when he was 13. He got clean when he was 20, and has been sober for a few years now. He is (and was) a kind, loving, and very bright guy, but a combination of mental health issues and bullying pushed him into a crowd of kids with serious problems, and he fell into some of them. He was sometimes violent and always unpredictable while addicted, and he loathed himself for it. My father and stepmother were desperate to help, but also recognized that they couldn't force help on him, especially without driving him away. And having him end up on the street would have been very much worse--probably a death sentence. So they made sure he had a home, did what they could, and didn't ask questions when he asked for money. It was incredibly difficult for them, but I think it was the right decision. My brother would certainly tell you so.

One of my younger stepbrothers is an alcoholic. He's skated in and out of treatment since his mid twenties, and has been sober for a few years now. He spent some time on the street. His father coerced him into treatment several times, but it didn't take. His twin brother has helped, time and again, by sharing an apartment or getting him hired at his own workplaces. In his case, he was dealing with severe depression. Not coincidentally, he was finally able to stay sober once he was able to see his daughter again, after twelve years. You can take a wild guess about when the drinking started.

One of our forum regulars was once addicted to drugs, too. They've not been shy speaking up about the experience.

These are people. They may look bad from the outside, and their behaviour may even impinge on others sometimes. But they matter to someone--save for those who are where they are precisely because nobody has cared for them. You get to see them on their worst days because they have no closed doors to hide behind.

[Caracal]

Being an actual Christian, I favor *not leaving* said scumbag junkies to remain as, well, scumbag junkies, but rather forcing them to stop being such, and providing the resources, rehab, etc., to help that process along.  Meanwhile, they do not get to ruin everyone else's experience of the library, etc. 

It is much easier to critique attitudes I have expressed when/if one does not actually live somewhere where one gets to encounter people like this on a regular basis.  Where I live, and having to park on the street, I regularly encounter these sorts just between my house and my car, esp at night.  Just going into the local pub library often requires one to run a gauntlet away from such folks.  Most people from Leafy Suburb can look the other way, but we cannot.  Leafy Suburbanites get to rest easy knowing that people like this in their own communities more or less get forced, or at least incentivized, to come to places like Rusty City-- their own libraries more or less get to be Junkie-free.  Drugs Suck.

Where I live now is quite sanitized, which isn't really my preference, but I went to grad school in a place where there were plenty of unhoused people hanging around. For the most part, these people were polite and non-threatening. Even the one guy who would sometimes loudly yell at nobody was clearly not dangerous since I saw him do that for 5 years without anything else ever happening. I worried far more about groups of teenagers mugging me than these guys. They mostly hung out at the same places all the time and they were clearly pretty careful to not block entrances or cause any issues for the storekeepers, many of whom regularly gave them food. Probably some of them did have issues with substance abuse, as do plenty of people who aren't homeless, but it wasn't obvious.

Look, libraries are public places-actually even some private libraries that house government documents collections are required to be open to the public. They should be staffed appropriately, depending on their location. That means appropriate security so that librarians and patrons can feel safe

[marshwiggle]

Look, libraries are public places-actually even some private libraries that house government documents collections are required to be open to the public. They should be staffed appropriately, depending on their location. That means appropriate security so that librarians and patrons can feel safe

This is like saying that schools are public spaces, and should have adequate security, including guards, metal detectors at the doors, resources for live-shooter drills, etc.

Accepting this as "normal" just means the people who can afford to go elsewhere will, (not using the libraries or putting their kids in private school, for instance), so that the only people who have to deal with this are the people in the community who are poor enough to have no option. (So, members of already marginalized communities, recent immigrants, etc.)

As people abandon these spaces, funding for them will decrease, and the more voters have already left, the less they'll care about pleas for more funding. It's a downward spiral.

It's an example of the broken windows theory.

[lightning]

Look, libraries are public places-actually even some private libraries that house government documents collections are required to be open to the public. They should be staffed appropriately, depending on their location. That means appropriate security so that librarians and patrons can feel safe

This is like saying that schools are public spaces, and should have adequate security, including guards, metal detectors at the doors, resources for live-shooter drills, etc.

Accepting this as "normal" just means the people who can afford to go elsewhere will, (not using the libraries or putting their kids in private school, for instance), so that the only people who have to deal with this are the people in the community who are poor enough to have no option. (So, members of already marginalized communities, recent immigrants, etc.)

As people abandon these spaces, funding for them will decrease, and the more voters have already left, the less they'll care about pleas for more funding. It's a downward spiral.

It's an example of the broken windows theory.

This might be why more homeless are showing up at my university's library.

Funding for my community's local public libraries has gone down, probably because no one wants to fund them anymore, and that has resulted in less hours that the public libraries are open and multiple days in the week that various public library branches are closed. OTOH, our main academic library is open 7 days a week from very early in the day to very late at night. So, I'm guessing that the homeless patrons who used to hang out at the public libraries, now hang out at our library because we have much better hours. I'm guessing that when we re-located our food bank to right next to the library, that probably drove up traffic. Finally, we sometimes have these events for students, featuring free food. There are people that attend who are obviously not students.

Yeah, the word has gotten out. So far, everyone is co-existing just fine. At least, I have not heard of any problems . . . .

[dismalist]

You can have all the homelessness you are willing to pay for.

[kaysixteen]

Random thoughts:

1) One might disagree with my choice of the term 'scumbag' here, but let's not be holier than God--Jesus called bad people 'ye brood of vipers'.
2) Those two passages, from John and Matthew, probably demonstrate my point.  As to John, were I a junkie shooting up in the Wallyworld bathroom, I would want someone to prevent me from doing that, and force me to take treatment for my condition.  As to Matthew, further, how do I properly show love to the addict, by a) telling him, 'you're ok, bro, I love you', or b) doing what I said above wrt John?
3) I do have to confess that my time in Rusty City, esp working for Big Box America, has made me rather hard, greatly magnifying my preexisting views of addicts and addiction (son of wife-beater alcoholic).  I do not like this, but I need the job, so I will have to tough it out, and pray (as I do) for better attitudes.  That does not mean I am wrong about addiction and addicts' behavior, however...

[marshwiggle]

Look, libraries are public places-actually even some private libraries that house government documents collections are required to be open to the public. They should be staffed appropriately, depending on their location. That means appropriate security so that librarians and patrons can feel safe

This is like saying that schools are public spaces, and should have adequate security, including guards, metal detectors at the doors, resources for live-shooter drills, etc.

Accepting this as "normal" just means the people who can afford to go elsewhere will, (not using the libraries or putting their kids in private school, for instance), so that the only people who have to deal with this are the people in the community who are poor enough to have no option. (So, members of already marginalized communities, recent immigrants, etc.)

As people abandon these spaces, funding for them will decrease, and the more voters have already left, the less they'll care about pleas for more funding. It's a downward spiral.

It's an example of the broken windows theory.

This might be why more homeless are showing up at my university's library.

Funding for my community's local public libraries has gone down, probably because no one wants to fund them anymore, and that has resulted in less hours that the public libraries are open and multiple days in the week that various public library branches are closed. OTOH, our main academic library is open 7 days a week from very early in the day to very late at night. So, I'm guessing that the homeless patrons who used to hang out at the public libraries, now hang out at our library because we have much better hours. I'm guessing that when we re-located our food bank to right next to the library, that probably drove up traffic. Finally, we sometimes have these events for students, featuring free food. There are people that attend who are obviously not students.

Yeah, the word has gotten out. So far, everyone is co-existing just fine. At least, I have not heard of any problems . . . .

You won't hear anything from all of the people who just stop using the space. Most people aren't going to scream and wave placards. They'll just go away.

[nebo113]

were I a junkie shooting up in the Wallyworld bathroom, I would want someone to prevent me from doing that, and force me to take treatment for my condition. 

So you are adept at wrenching a needle from the arm of the addict in the bathroom and bundling her off to the nearest rehab center?

[kaysixteen]

Don't be stupid, and don't insult my intelligence.  Cops and paramedics can be called to do that, and then after the junkie is stabilized, giving the junkie a choice between rehab or the slammer is easy enough.

[eigen]

Don't be stupid, and don't insult my intelligence.  Cops and paramedics can be called to do that, and then after the junkie is stabilized, giving the junkie a choice between rehab or the slammer is easy enough.

Got it. So you're not actually taking part in helping these people, just judging them and wanting to not see their problems.

Gonna agree with the consensus that this doesn't sound very Christian, or at least not any variety I would want to associate with Christ.