Thought question for ye: suppose you are a Walmart manager-- customer appears with a visible tattoo of a swastika and an SS rune. What, if anything, should you do about this, and why, and would this answer be different if instead of a tatt it was a t-shirt?
Bruh, it's Walmart. I wouldn't be looking too hard at anyone's tattoos.
The shirt would bother me more than the tattoo for some reason. I guess, to me, a bad tattoo indicates a bad decision from the past whereas a t-shirt indicates a current bad decision in progress.
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 16, 2023, 10:37:52 PMThought question for ye: suppose you are a Walmart manager-- customer appears with a visible tattoo of a swastika and an SS rune. What, if anything, should you do about this, and why, and would this answer be different if instead of a tatt it was a t-shirt?
Nothing, although I might be alert to the natural consequences if another customer is offended and chooses to react in a manner that affects the previously peaceful environment of the store.
Not that I would blame the offended customer, by any means. If this happened I would ask the person in the t-shirt to leave, saying that his choice of garment is giving unnecessary offense and causing a distraction.
nothing.
They dont pay me to notice. Corporate does not want to be on the news for taking any stand. Why take what may be bait to get someone's agenda publicized?
Hell, in this part of the red world, complying with the mask requirements during Covid was more controversial. Not that there werent good people, on both sides of the mask, but why take a stand. At this point, the tat isnt going away!
How many are going to notice anyway?
AS for the shirt, there was a 'disney hack' where people figured out that Disney would give you a shirt if your shirt didnt meet the dress code. After a while, even Disney caught on. but Disney World aint Walmart. They have terms and conditions that Walmart does not have.
How much money do I make as a manager at Wal Mart? Maybe $35k? That isn't enough to risk my own safety to confront some psycho.
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 16, 2023, 10:37:52 PMThought question for ye: suppose you are a Walmart manager-- customer appears with a visible tattoo of a swastika and an SS rune. What, if anything, should you do about this, and why, and would this answer be different if instead of a tatt it was a t-shirt?
Like so many other questions on this board, this one, too, is about property rights. Who owns the store?
Well, upper management wants to maximize profits. Thus, keep customers happy. If many customers are offended by the runes, they exit and profits go down. Management would want to stop that by promulgating dress codes. This would, or at least could, offend other customers! What to do? Decide in favor of the largest group that credibly threatens to leave.
That there are many Walmarts makes such a course easier and harder at the same time. Not every Walmart has to have the same rules. But that means the decision would have to be made by a local manager, not upper management. Local manager has to be careful -- might get beat up by one side or the other!
While there are many levels of management at Walmart, a Store Manager ...
"Do Walmart managers make 6 figures?
Walmart store managers were paid an average salary of $210,000 last year, and the stores they lead are each like a big business under one roof with average annual sales of $100 million and 300 employees.Jun 2, 2022"
When I was at college, we had a very small troop of shaven-headed, black-garbed, white shoelace wearing neo-Nazi skinheads in town. They were at a distinct disadvantage as far as numbers and culture in this very liberal town, and that was precisely why they paraded the sidewalks trying to look menacing. They were frequently harassed by police and glared at by the college students, but in the end no one really cared all that much----and that is why I think they eventually just faded away.
A Nazi tat or a Nazi shirt is simply a way to vent mental illness. I personally would ignore both. These loons want you to react; if you don't react, you defeat them.
What would doing anything accomplish? You're not going to change anyone's mind by taking them to task for a tattoo. They already know that a lot of people will have a terrible opinion of them. I feel as if this question is just short of trolling, to be honest.
I think the point might be to roll the ball in the direction that A) tattoos are evil, and B) that there should be rules about what people are allowed to express and how people are allowed to behave.
This is generally where we go when Hitler or the Nazis show up in a discussion board online.
In high school and college I worked retail and I remember how funny thinking it was when we watched a training video about how we shouldn't confront or pursue anyway stealing merchandise. "Don't worry, not my stuff, I'm not going to tackle anyone." Same basic principle. Store managers are not looking for extra problems to deal with. They want to finish their shift and go home.
Quote from: fishbrains on September 17, 2023, 06:30:10 AMBruh, it's Walmart. I wouldn't be looking too hard at anyone's tattoos.
The shirt would bother me more than the tattoo for some reason. I guess, to me, a bad tattoo indicates a bad decision from the past whereas a t-shirt indicates a current bad decision in progress.
That's kind of how I feel about it. I personally feel about tattoos in general like I suspect Kay does. To me any kind of tattoo looks like a bad decision. I think the proliferation of them is not a good sign in our society, and that a great many people getting them will end up having cause for regret. And not all of them will be able to have them removed.
But bad decisions in the past just have to be left in the past, even if they leave visible signs in the present. We shouldn't automatically assume the worst about somebody with evidence of a bad decision set into their skin. Our church has so many tats among our members that a Japanese visitor might mistake it for a Yakuza convention.
Many years ago, Mrs. Artem & I attended a local arts festival. Among the festival goers, I noticed a young women wearing one of those ankle length Indian "peasant" skirts. She was wearing it quite low on her hips and I could not help but see the beautiful butterfly she had tattooed around her umbilicus.
Looks nice I thought to myself. But if she ever has a baby, that thing is gonna look like a melted pizza.
Some wisdom I heard once -- Yes Pumpkin, of course your tattoo makes you stand out and look like an individual..... Just like everybody else who has one.
I'm also wondering if perhaps Kay is actually a sock for Jacob Rees-Mogg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Rees-Mogg) aka the Honorable Member for the 18th Century.
Getting upset about first names, tattoos, and various other things is just not something it's worth having the bandwidth to get upset about. But hey, you do you.
I'm amazed that the tattoo fad is still a fad.
In and of themselves, tattoos are not bad. I've never wanted one, but that's me. Tattoos may be here to stay.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/avn78e/manwoman-is-taking-back-the-swastika
I concur that a t-shirt is more of a concern than a tattoo.
It is correct that WM store managers make a ton of money, a 6-figure starting *salary* and the potential to earn even more than this in annual bonuses. Even the starting wage for the lowest-ranked salaried asst. manager is indeed north of 50k, and again with the potential for real bonuses. As a corporation, WM's compensation levels are extremely pyramidical-- the notorious extremely starvation-wage-esque comp levels are only for clock punchers, even though these do most of the actual hard work. But the managers do have to do something in exchange for their high pay, and one of those somethings is indeed to confront disruptive and dangerous customers.
So now we get to the neo-Nazi scumbags, whose attire, whether cloth or tatt, creates the real possibility for violent reactions, and makes decent people, esp Jews and blacks, have to fear when they themselves are in the store. Of course, this is true for not only decent customers, but staff who actually have to serve such scumbags in close proximity. Put simply, your right to swing your fist around in the air ends where my nose starts. This is not really a close call. But sadly it often is (WM has occasionally ejected neo-Nazis, but usually tolerates them), because WM's biz model is to essentially tolerate, even roll out the red carpet in certain communities, for an extremely low lowest-common-denominator crowd, usually because mgmt seems to assume that decent customers, liking the low prices, will tolerate this.
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 18, 2023, 04:54:58 PMmgmt seems to assume that decent customers, liking the low prices, will tolerate this.
mgmt is not wrong.
https://ruinmyweek.com/trashy/people-of-walmart/
https://viralnova.com/weird-people-of-walmart/
https://www.voomed.com/people-of-walmart-pictures/
Even rough and uncouth people need a place to shop. And in a rural area, where the population can support only a limited number of shopping options, there's less scope for people to sort themselves out so that they aren't required to be in proximity with those who aren't like them. Generally different kinds of people seem to get along pretty well with each other, despite efforts in some quarters to portray rural areas as populated by violent morons.
Quote from: apl68 on September 18, 2023, 07:47:54 AMQuote from: fishbrains on September 17, 2023, 06:30:10 AMBruh, it's Walmart. I wouldn't be looking too hard at anyone's tattoos.
The shirt would bother me more than the tattoo for some reason. I guess, to me, a bad tattoo indicates a bad decision from the past whereas a t-shirt indicates a current bad decision in progress.
That's kind of how I feel about it. I personally feel about tattoos in general like I suspect Kay does. To me any kind of tattoo looks like a bad decision. I think the proliferation of them is not a good sign in our society, and that a great many people getting them will end up having cause for regret. And not all of them will be able to have them removed.
There are always things about younger people as a group that strike older people as bizarre and problematic. Often, this is just because it can be really hard to process the way in which the meanings of cultural or fashion choices change as they become more mainstream. Because the thing feels unfamiliar and odd, we tend to become obsessed with the part of it that seems different and overlook the parts of it that are actually pretty familiar.
I see a lot of focus on the permanence of tattoos, which is the most obvious difference between a tattoo and a hair style or clothing. I don't have any tattoos, but I know a lot of people who do. Most actually put a lot of thought into it and don't have any regret. I know a few people who got something when they were younger that they think is now pretty silly, but they are more amused by their younger self than filled with regret. I suppose it helps that these aren't tattoos of dragons on their face, but I really don't see many people with tattoos that are impossible to hide.
But it really is just a cultural change, tattoos are so normal now, that even a slightly regrettable one is just not that big a deal to anyone.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 18, 2023, 11:26:09 AMI'm amazed that the tattoo fad is still a fad.
In and of themselves, tattoos are not bad. I've never wanted one, but that's me. Tattoos may be here to stay.
In a few decades, how they'll look on 80 year olds will be interesting.
Oh good grief. Ya'lls obsession with tattoos is just silly, verging on self-righteous "I'm better than you because my skin is not inked." Get over it.
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 26, 2023, 12:46:26 PMQuote from: Wahoo Redux on September 18, 2023, 11:26:09 AMI'm amazed that the tattoo fad is still a fad.
In and of themselves, tattoos are not bad. I've never wanted one, but that's me. Tattoos may be here to stay.
In a few decades, how they'll look on 80 year olds will be interesting.
True. I still don't think the tat-generations will regret them. Tats are just part of their culture. I'm boggled, but I am also middle-aged, and being boggled by kids is a big part of being middle aged in Western culture.
Random points:
1) I certainly do not live in a rural area, but rather in a slimy rusty city, loaded with poverty and drugs, and tatted up scumbags.
2) I get that tatting up has become very much more common amongst Millennials and Zers, but whether or not that is a good thing, but many of you have probably not seen a) tatts on places that just cannot be covered up, and b) unacceptable tatts, such as 'f*ck you' (asterisk mine) on one's hands. And then there is
3) Beyond unacceptable. Such as swastikas and SS runes. I am neither black nor Jewish, and I know this myself. I suppose you could say to those WW customers (and staffers) who either are black or Jewish, 'tough patooties', but, well...
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 26, 2023, 01:56:43 PMQuote from: marshwiggle on September 26, 2023, 12:46:26 PMQuote from: Wahoo Redux on September 18, 2023, 11:26:09 AMI'm amazed that the tattoo fad is still a fad.
In and of themselves, tattoos are not bad. I've never wanted one, but that's me. Tattoos may be here to stay.
In a few decades, how they'll look on 80 year olds will be interesting.
True. I still don't think the tat-generations will regret them. Tats are just part of their culture. I'm boggled, but I am also middle-aged, and being boggled by kids is a big part of being middle aged in Western culture.
Here's an interesting article:
The Most Surprising Tattoo Removal Statistics And Trends in 2023 (https://blog.gitnux.com/tattoo-removal-statistics/)
QuoteTattoos have become increasingly popular in recent years, with an estimated 45 million Americans having at least one tattoo. But not everyone is happy with their body art – approximately 23% of people in the United States regret getting a tattoo and 11% have tried to remove or cover it up.
36% of people between the ages of 18 and 29 have at least one tattoo.
The global tattoo removal market is expected to reach $4.8 billion by 2023.
The number of tattoo removal treatments in the United States increased by 32% between 2011 and 2018.
92% of men with tattoos have considered tattoo removal.
That last one is staggering.
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 27, 2023, 05:28:08 AMQuote from: Wahoo Redux on September 26, 2023, 01:56:43 PMQuote from: marshwiggle on September 26, 2023, 12:46:26 PMQuote from: Wahoo Redux on September 18, 2023, 11:26:09 AMI'm amazed that the tattoo fad is still a fad.
In and of themselves, tattoos are not bad. I've never wanted one, but that's me. Tattoos may be here to stay.
In a few decades, how they'll look on 80 year olds will be interesting.
True. I still don't think the tat-generations will regret them. Tats are just part of their culture. I'm boggled, but I am also middle-aged, and being boggled by kids is a big part of being middle aged in Western culture.
Here's an interesting article:
The Most Surprising Tattoo Removal Statistics And Trends in 2023 (https://blog.gitnux.com/tattoo-removal-statistics/)
Quote92% of men with tattoos have considered tattoo removal.
That last one is staggering.
Well, it is a little awkward only dating women with the same name as your ex.
Quote from: fishbrains on September 27, 2023, 05:34:53 AMQuote from: marshwiggle on September 27, 2023, 05:28:08 AMQuote from: Wahoo Redux on September 26, 2023, 01:56:43 PMQuote from: marshwiggle on September 26, 2023, 12:46:26 PMQuote from: Wahoo Redux on September 18, 2023, 11:26:09 AMI'm amazed that the tattoo fad is still a fad.
In and of themselves, tattoos are not bad. I've never wanted one, but that's me. Tattoos may be here to stay.
In a few decades, how they'll look on 80 year olds will be interesting.
True. I still don't think the tat-generations will regret them. Tats are just part of their culture. I'm boggled, but I am also middle-aged, and being boggled by kids is a big part of being middle aged in Western culture.
Here's an interesting article:
The Most Surprising Tattoo Removal Statistics And Trends in 2023 (https://blog.gitnux.com/tattoo-removal-statistics/)
Quote92% of men with tattoos have considered tattoo removal.
That last one is staggering.
Well, it is a little awkward only dating women with the same name as your ex.
:)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CdVTCDdEwI)
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 27, 2023, 05:28:08 AMQuoteTattoos have become increasingly popular in recent years, with an estimated 45 million Americans having at least one tattoo. But not everyone is happy with their body art – approximately 23% of people in the United States regret getting a tattoo and 11% have tried to remove or cover it up.
36% of people between the ages of 18 and 29 have at least one tattoo.
The global tattoo removal market is expected to reach $4.8 billion by 2023.
The number of tattoo removal treatments in the United States increased by 32% between 2011 and 2018.
92% of men with tattoos have considered tattoo removal.
That last one is staggering.
Those numbers don't really make sense. I would assume they are drawn from different surveys, but they can't all be right. If 91 percent of men with tattoos had considered tattoo removal, wouldn't more than 23 percent of people regret their tattoos?
Quote from: Caracal on September 27, 2023, 06:28:15 AMQuote from: marshwiggle on September 27, 2023, 05:28:08 AMQuoteTattoos have become increasingly popular in recent years, with an estimated 45 million Americans having at least one tattoo. But not everyone is happy with their body art – approximately 23% of people in the United States regret getting a tattoo and 11% have tried to remove or cover it up.
36% of people between the ages of 18 and 29 have at least one tattoo.
The global tattoo removal market is expected to reach $4.8 billion by 2023.
The number of tattoo removal treatments in the United States increased by 32% between 2011 and 2018.
92% of men with tattoos have considered tattoo removal.
That last one is staggering.
Those numbers don't really make sense. I would assume they are drawn from different surveys, but they can't all be right. If 91 percent of men with tattoos had considered tattoo removal, wouldn't more than 23 percent of people regret their tattoos?
They have links at the end of the article to all of their sources.
Two statistics later in the article:
Quote75% of those that sought tattoo removal did so to feel more employable.
The most common reason for tattoo removal is regret (39%).
Those last two might explain it. If a lot of men thought their tattoos were a problem
for employment, even if they themselves thought they were fine, then they may consider removing them.
61% of the removals were NOT for regret. (Of course, it means the definition of "regret" is a bit nuanced, if it doesn't include wanting to change something for utilitarian reasons.)
I've been reading this with interest and finally decided to comment. I have tattoos, didn't get my first one until I was in my early 30s. Only one of mine can be seen if I'm wearing a sleeveless shirt, and I often do. My brother, who works in corporate banking, wears a suit and tie pretty much every day, has sleeve tattoos from the elbow up, all over his chest and back, and a few on his legs. None of them can be seen at work. My person works in IT, he has full sleeves, from a couple inches above his wrists all the way up his arms, across his chest and back, and his legs are covered. He always wears long sleeves at work and none of his tattoos can be seen. He also has waist length hair that he always has braided or in a bun. We are all around 50 years old plus or minus. I don't regret any of mine, my brother doesn't either, and neither does my partner but he does have one from when he was younger he wants covered or redone just because it's fading quite a bit. All of us know that we work in relatively conservative environments and not everyone is accepting of tattoos so we choose to have them in places where they can be hidden when we deem it necessary.
My hairstylist, on the other hand, is absolutely covered in ink, has facial tattoos, facial piercings, and the last time I had my hair done, he had a hot pink mohawk. That's not a look I would expect to see in an engineering professor, a corporate banker, or most of the people I know who work in IT. But in a hairstylist? Not so unusual. And he's around 40 years old.
I've seen tattoos that are racist, sexist, tacky, poorly drawn, and in many other ways offensive. I've also seen clothing I find offensive, and heard many, many things I find offensive. I'm not going to confront someone over it. I've also watched some of those "so you have a bad tattoo" shows on streaming, and goodness gracious, there's a LOT of bad tattoo work out there that I can see why someone would want to get rid of or cover up.
Quote from: EdnaMode on September 27, 2023, 07:27:06 AMI've been reading this with interest and finally decided to comment. I have tattoos, didn't get my first one until I was in my early 30s. Only one of mine can be seen if I'm wearing a sleeveless shirt, and I often do. My brother, who works in corporate banking, wears a suit and tie pretty much every day, has sleeve tattoos from the elbow up, all over his chest and back, and a few on his legs. None of them can be seen at work. My person works in IT, he has full sleeves, from a couple inches above his wrists all the way up his arms, across his chest and back, and his legs are covered. He always wears long sleeves at work and none of his tattoos can be seen.
Just out of curiosity, were those choices of location, (i.e. places that could be covered by regular clothing), on purpose? I'd be fascinated to know how many people who get tattoos make that decision up front. (I'd guess those who do would be less likely to regret them.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 27, 2023, 07:42:52 AMQuote from: EdnaMode on September 27, 2023, 07:27:06 AMI've been reading this with interest and finally decided to comment. I have tattoos, didn't get my first one until I was in my early 30s. Only one of mine can be seen if I'm wearing a sleeveless shirt, and I often do. My brother, who works in corporate banking, wears a suit and tie pretty much every day, has sleeve tattoos from the elbow up, all over his chest and back, and a few on his legs. None of them can be seen at work. My person works in IT, he has full sleeves, from a couple inches above his wrists all the way up his arms, across his chest and back, and his legs are covered. He always wears long sleeves at work and none of his tattoos can be seen.
Just out of curiosity, were those choices of location, (i.e. places that could be covered by regular clothing), on purpose? I'd be fascinated to know how many people who get tattoos make that decision up front. (I'd guess those who do would be less likely to regret them.)
Yes, I did deliberately choose locations that could be covered up. At the time of my first tattoo, I was working in industry with some VERY conservative people, some of whom were international and saw tattoos (and women in engineering for that matter) as something that was looked down upon. And since I've been in academia, I recognize that engineering is still a pretty conservative field. Long-haired men are generally about as far out of the norm as you'll see in my department and in the whole School of Engineering. My brother made his choices for the same reasons, corporate banking is pretty conservative. My partner was in the military before retiring from that and starting work in IT. At the time he served, he could not have any visible body art and even though he no longer has to abide by those rules, he says his body art is his business, not anyone else's.
A number of years ago, I was visiting one of our overseas preceptors. Came across a young man with a shaved head -- and a large swastika tattooed onto the side of his skull. I'm pretty sure he was not a student of ancient symbols on the Indian sub-continent. I took it to be a message that he has no intention of ever getting a job and proposes to be a dole bludger his entire life.
Quote from: EdnaMode on September 27, 2023, 08:09:13 AMMy partner was in the military before retiring from that and starting work in IT. At the time he served, he could not have any visible body art and even though he no longer has to abide by those rules, he says his body art is his business, not anyone else's.
And those of us who don't much care for tattoos do appreciate it when tattoo lovers show this sort of discretion about their business.
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 27, 2023, 09:50:42 AMA number of years ago, I was visiting one of our overseas preceptors. Came across a young man with a shaved head -- and a large swastika tattooed onto the side of his skull. I'm pretty sure he was not a student of ancient symbols on the Indian sub-continent. I took it to be a message that he has no intention of ever getting a job and proposes to be a dole bludger his entire life.
This reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw many years ago on a van, which said,
"Gas, grass, or a**, nobody rides free."
I wondered if this owner had a mother, grandmother, sister, etc.; i.e. ANY woman he might need to give a lift to who might have found that sentiment awkward.
(I am assuming the owner was male, but I can't be sure.)
Dots for spots. I admit I DO have some tattoos, but they are hard to find. What they were were single dots on my flab for the aiming of prostate radiation. I think those tats will have to do. And I can't even find one of them (the flab problem). The cancer appears gone (if you believe the PSA readings some years on).
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 27, 2023, 10:17:52 AMThis reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw many years ago on a van, which said,
"Gas, grass, or a**, nobody rides free."
I wondered if this owner had a mother, grandmother, sister, etc.; i.e. ANY woman he might need to give a lift to who might have found that sentiment awkward.
(I am assuming the owner was male, but I can't be sure.)
For what it is worth, this is a common sticker on cars in my neighborhood. Again, for what it is worth, most of the cars' owners have tattoos. As do many of their girlfriends, and sisters (and maybe their mothers, too.) Again, for what it is worth.
Quote from: apl68 on September 27, 2023, 10:09:09 AMQuote from: EdnaMode on September 27, 2023, 08:09:13 AMMy partner was in the military before retiring from that and starting work in IT. At the time he served, he could not have any visible body art and even though he no longer has to abide by those rules, he says his body art is his business, not anyone else's.
And those of us who don't much care for tattoos do appreciate it when tattoo lovers show this sort of discretion about their business.
I mean, that's fine, but I think it's weird to actually feel bothered by tattoos in general. It's like clothing, mostly I don't have any feelings about it at all on other people. Every once in a while I do register something someone is wearing because I think it's kind of cool, and sometimes I think "huh, weird choice," or, more often, as I descend into middle age "I guess that's a thing the kids wear these days."
Most of the time I don't notice anything other than that someone has a sleeve, or some kind of tattoo on their arm or leg. I can't usually make out the details without looking closely and staring intently at other people's bodies is something I try to avoid with most people I encounter at my work or theirs.
As for employment and the like, I suspect we are rapidly moving into a world in which someone at a job interview might want to cover a tattoo, but only for the same reason they might not want to wear sparkly shoes, or a pocket square in their coat. You don't want people focusing on the dragon on your arm rather than your qualifications. Once you get the job, the tattoo would be totally acceptable in the same way that these other sorts of slightly bold fashion statements would in all but the most conservative work environments.
Quote from: Caracal on September 28, 2023, 04:18:56 AMI mean, that's fine, but I think it's weird to actually feel bothered by tattoos in general.
From my perspective, tattoos seem to correlate to mainly age, and then to a lesser extent, class, geography, religion, and to some extent ethnicity and race. At my school, many (perhaps most) of the students tend to have visible tattoos. A fair number of the support staff (secretaries, janitors) have tattoos, some professors (especially younger humanists), and very, very few administrators. (Although I did notice that the new male budget person hired by my school, while having no visible tattoos, does have a rather prominent nose ring.)
In my neighborhood, the overwhelming majority of people between 18 and 40 have some sort of visible tattoos.
I have no idea how having a tattoo would affect the job search today. I assume that all tattoos are not equal. A prominent face tattoo is still more taboo than a discrete tattoo on one's inside wrist. I would imagine that a prominent swastika or SS ruins tattoo would still be bad for one's job prospects, but not necessarily because it is a tattoo per se.
Quote from: jerseyjay on September 28, 2023, 04:36:53 AMI have no idea how having a tattoo would affect the job search today. I assume that all tattoos are not equal. A prominent face tattoo is still more taboo than a discrete tattoo on one's inside wrist. I would imagine that a prominent swastika or SS ruins tattoo would still be bad for one's job prospects, but not necessarily because it is a tattoo per se.
My impression of
extensive body art, including tattoos and piercings, is that part of what it is intended to convey is a willingness to
defy conventional expectations. (People are free to disagree on that, but I'd be surprised if my opinion isn't shared by many other people.) If I'm hiring someone, such as a TA, I don't care if they disagree with my teaching philosophy, or my grading scheme, or my deadlines,
but I need them to follow them while they are working for me. For that reason, any indication that I'm going to have justify everything I ask to their satisfaction is going to make me pass on hiring. (If they've taken a course from me, and have shown their willingness to follow the rules and check all of the boxes
for me, then there's no problem.)
So a
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 28, 2023, 05:06:13 AMQuote from: jerseyjay on September 28, 2023, 04:36:53 AMI have no idea how having a tattoo would affect the job search today. I assume that all tattoos are not equal. A prominent face tattoo is still more taboo than a discrete tattoo on one's inside wrist. I would imagine that a prominent swastika or SS ruins tattoo would still be bad for one's job prospects, but not necessarily because it is a tattoo per se.
My impression of extensive body art, including tattoos and piercings, is that part of what it is intended to convey is a willingness to defy conventional expectations. (People are free to disagree on that, but I'd be surprised if my opinion isn't shared by many other people.) If I'm hiring someone, such as a TA, I don't care if they disagree with my teaching philosophy, or my grading scheme, or my deadlines, but I need them to follow them while they are working for me. For that reason, any indication that I'm going to have justify everything I ask to their satisfaction is going to make me pass on hiring. (If they've taken a course from me, and have shown their willingness to follow the rules and check all of the boxes for me, then there's no problem.)
Yikes! You are willing to assume that 1/3 of the US population is unsuitable to work for you because, clutching my pearls, ink indicates they won't follow the rules!
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/15/32-of-americans-have-a-tattoo-including-22-who-have-more-than-one/
Quote from: nebo113 on September 28, 2023, 07:45:07 AMSo a
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 28, 2023, 05:06:13 AMQuote from: jerseyjay on September 28, 2023, 04:36:53 AMI have no idea how having a tattoo would affect the job search today. I assume that all tattoos are not equal. A prominent face tattoo is still more taboo than a discrete tattoo on one's inside wrist. I would imagine that a prominent swastika or SS ruins tattoo would still be bad for one's job prospects, but not necessarily because it is a tattoo per se.
My impression of extensive body art, including tattoos and piercings, is that part of what it is intended to convey is a willingness to defy conventional expectations. (People are free to disagree on that, but I'd be surprised if my opinion isn't shared by many other people.) If I'm hiring someone, such as a TA, I don't care if they disagree with my teaching philosophy, or my grading scheme, or my deadlines, but I need them to follow them while they are working for me. For that reason, any indication that I'm going to have justify everything I ask to their satisfaction is going to make me pass on hiring. (If they've taken a course from me, and have shown their willingness to follow the rules and check all of the boxes for me, then there's no problem.)
Yikes! You are willing to assume that 1/3 of the US population is unsuitable to work for you because, clutching my pearls, ink indicates they won't follow the rules!
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/15/32-of-americans-have-a-tattoo-including-22-who-have-more-than-one/
Note my highlighting of the word "extensive". Someone with a butterfly on their wrist is a lot different than someone who looks like a cast member from "
Road Warrior". (That illustrates my point; there's a reason certain movies have characters with
EXTENSIVE body art, including ink and multiple piercings on their faces.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 28, 2023, 08:04:56 AMNote my highlighting of the word "extensive". Someone with a butterfly on their wrist is a lot different than someone who looks like a cast member from "Road Warrior". (That illustrates my point; there's a reason certain movies have characters with EXTENSIVE body art, including ink and multiple piercings on their faces.)
I don't know that an apocalyptical dystopian fantasy movie from 1981 (when tats were actually a relative rarity) is a very good cultural barometer, my Marshbro.
The military's take on tattoos is evolving: (https://veteransbreakfastclub.org/your-simple-guide-to-military-tattoo-policies-for-2021-2022/)
QuoteNo military regulation has been more closely watched—and more frequently changed—than the do's and don'ts of tattoos. Last week, the Marine Corps revised its policy, allowing the "sleeve" (whole arm) tattoo and also permitting officers more than four tattoos visible in uniform. Both officers and enlisted can now tat themselves up as much as they want, as long as it's not on the face or neck. And hands may sport only one finger ring tattoo. The reason for the change is simple: recruiting and retention. Nearly half of young adults have tattoos, and many have several. The new "Marine Corps Bulletin 1020" emphasizes balance between decorum and practicality.
I suspect the armed forces are simply responding to the era when peeps are not so afraid of tats.
Who cares if people are tatted to the hilt or pure as a new bar of soap?
I suppose, following the basic rubric that tats indicate a rebel without a cause, we must negate the Maori people? (https://www.zealandtattoo.co.nz/tattoo-styles/maori-tattoo/) Or are we respectful of cultural traditions even if they are not the traditions we grew up with?
People are just funny.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 28, 2023, 09:00:21 AMQuote from: marshwiggle on September 28, 2023, 08:04:56 AMNote my highlighting of the word "extensive". Someone with a butterfly on their wrist is a lot different than someone who looks like a cast member from "Road Warrior". (That illustrates my point; there's a reason certain movies have characters with EXTENSIVE body art, including ink and multiple piercings on their faces.)
I don't know that an apocalyptical dystopian fantasy movie from 1981 (when tats were actually a relative rarity) is a very good cultural barometer, my Marshbro.
The military's take on tattoos is evolving: (https://veteransbreakfastclub.org/your-simple-guide-to-military-tattoo-policies-for-2021-2022/)
QuoteNo military regulation has been more closely watched—and more frequently changed—than the do's and don'ts of tattoos. Last week, the Marine Corps revised its policy, allowing the "sleeve" (whole arm) tattoo and also permitting officers more than four tattoos visible in uniform. Both officers and enlisted can now tat themselves up as much as they want, as long as it's not on the face or neck. And hands may sport only one finger ring tattoo. The reason for the change is simple: recruiting and retention. Nearly half of young adults have tattoos, and many have several. The new "Marine Corps Bulletin 1020" emphasizes balance between decorum and practicality.
I suspect the armed forces are simply responding to the era when peeps are not so afraid of tats.
Who cares if people are tatted to the hilt or pure as a new bar of soap?
I suppose, following the basic rubric that tats indicate a rebel without a cause, we must negate the Maori people? (https://www.zealandtattoo.co.nz/tattoo-styles/maori-tattoo/) Or are we respectful of cultural traditions even if they are not the traditions we grew up with?
People are just funny.
What about wearing a MAGA hat?
OK, I have read this thread with interest. I finally decided to comment:
#1: "Judge not, lest ye yourself be judged"
#2 Who cares what other random people look like? If they want to dress like Bozo the clown, what do I care? Why should I be offended by someone else's choices? Particularly some random person I do not know?
#3 IF they are a direct hire under my management and decide to come to the interview dressed like a Klingon I might be cautious--but a few tattoos? Whatever. Completely covered with piercings and potentially offensive tattoos on face/neck/hands--then I might question their judgement. BUT, I want to hire the best person for the job. If the genius programmer has "too many tattoos" and dresses weird, if they are not a front-facing employee who cares?
#4 Tattoos are a lifetime commitment, too many folks don't consider the future. That is why there are some with regrets. Removing tattoos is super-expensive and often doesn't work well--covering up dumn tats with more reasonable ones is often a better alternative.
#5 Employee shortage--companies need to hire whoever they can find--being picky about tattoos/piercings = problematic for staffing (and see #1 and #3)
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 28, 2023, 09:00:21 AMI suppose, following the basic rubric that tats indicate a rebel without a cause, we must negate the Maori people? (https://www.zealandtattoo.co.nz/tattoo-styles/maori-tattoo/) Or are we respectful of cultural traditions even if they are not the traditions we grew up with?
Closer to home, the Inuit also have a cultural practice of facial tattoos (tuniit)--for women.
I think culturally significant practices of body art/ modification are pretty cool. I think it's too bad ours doesn't really have much of that going for it.
I like pretty tattoos, regardless of where they are. Most of the tattoos most people have don't seem particularly pretty, but it's not my opinion that matters. And they're so widespread now that the cultural signification they had in '80s and '90s or earlier--viz., aggressiveness or transgressiveness--just doesn't apply any more. Facial tattoos are rare enough that they're probably an exception, but I, for one, don't really mind them.
I have no tattoos. My partner does.
To me, tattoos have become like pierced ears for guys in the 70's and 80's versus now. The more that folks get them, the less of a "scandal" to the point where, why should I care? I do have a tendency to stare when I see what looks like an interesting tattoo but I can't quite figure it out. That'll probably get me in trouble some day.
Working in the visual arts it's unusual when we have a faculty member or instructor who does not have a tattoo of one kind or another. I personally have no interest but I am definitely an exception.
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 28, 2023, 09:38:23 AMWhat about wearing a MAGA hat?
Ah Marshzilla, ever hoping for the hypocrisy and "indoctrination" to rear.
I have had many a MAGA hat and T-shirt, and once even Trump tennis shoes, in my classes; the laces passed through the eyeballs of the printed Trump on the fabric, so I am not sure what these shoes represented. I have had several "Trump is a great businessman and that makes him a great president" papers, and I grade them on their facts and citations----which are often flimsy.
I would feel exactly the same about MAGA tattoos---which I am sure are a thing somewhere. Random butterfly, skull, or Tweety Bird, whatever; MAGA tat, badly informed cult dolt.
Privately, I think these people are misinformed dolts; publicly and professionally I say nothing whatsoever.
But keep digging!!! You never know. Maybe you'll get lucky.
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 28, 2023, 08:04:56 AMQuote from: nebo113 on September 28, 2023, 07:45:07 AMSo a
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 28, 2023, 05:06:13 AMQuote from: jerseyjay on September 28, 2023, 04:36:53 AMI have no idea how having a tattoo would affect the job search today. I assume that all tattoos are not equal. A prominent face tattoo is still more taboo than a discrete tattoo on one's inside wrist. I would imagine that a prominent swastika or SS ruins tattoo would still be bad for one's job prospects, but not necessarily because it is a tattoo per se.
My impression of extensive body art, including tattoos and piercings, is that part of what it is intended to convey is a willingness to defy conventional expectations. (People are free to disagree on that, but I'd be surprised if my opinion isn't shared by many other people.) If I'm hiring someone, such as a TA, I don't care if they disagree with my teaching philosophy, or my grading scheme, or my deadlines, but I need them to follow them while they are working for me. For that reason, any indication that I'm going to have justify everything I ask to their satisfaction is going to make me pass on hiring. (If they've taken a course from me, and have shown their willingness to follow the rules and check all of the boxes for me, then there's no problem.)
Yikes! You are willing to assume that 1/3 of the US population is unsuitable to work for you because, clutching my pearls, ink indicates they won't follow the rules!
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/15/32-of-americans-have-a-tattoo-including-22-who-have-more-than-one/
Note my highlighting of the word "extensive". Someone with a butterfly on their wrist is a lot different than someone who looks like a cast member from "Road Warrior". (That illustrates my point; there's a reason certain movies have characters with EXTENSIVE body art, including ink and multiple piercings on their faces.)
Were I inclined to get a tattoo, it would be wise to keep in mind that there are people who still have these views about them. Even in academia, outside of art/dance/theatre, I would not want to interview with visible tattoos if I could help it. Would it matter? Probably not, but obviously there are still people who have negative associations and its one of those things that can only hurt. Once you had a job in academia, it's mostly not something that would matter, but I'm sure there are still industries and places where a tattoo would still cause someone problems. I'd assume people take this stuff into account along with their clothing preferences. It will be a cold day in hell before I wear shorts to a class so I could have anything I wanted tattooed on my legs and nobody at work would ever know. On the other hand, when I get warm I really want to roll up my sleeves and would find it pretty annoying if I had to not do that to avoid showing forearm tattoos.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 28, 2023, 06:58:21 PMPrivately, I think these people are misinformed dolts; publicly and professionally I say nothing whatsoever.
You've expressed it beautifully. People will
get impressions of people from how they present themselves,
whether they state them publicly or not.
This is why historically people have been "conservative" in how they present themselves. People who choose to wear their politics and preferences either figuratively or literally on their sleeves are extremely naive (or just completely disingenuous) to suggest that the information will have no effect on how they are perceived by others.
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 29, 2023, 04:53:59 AMQuote from: Wahoo Redux on September 28, 2023, 06:58:21 PMPrivately, I think these people are misinformed dolts; publicly and professionally I say nothing whatsoever.
You've expressed it beautifully. People will get impressions of people from how they present themselves, whether they state them publicly or not.
This is why historically people have been "conservative" in how they present themselves. People who choose to wear their politics and preferences either figuratively or literally on their sleeves are extremely naive (or just completely disingenuous) to suggest that the information will have no effect on how they are perceived by others.
Sure, but what "conservative" means isn't fixed. Not that long ago, a full beard on a man was seen as unusual and transgressive in many circles. Now, it's totally unremarkable and about the only job you would need to shave a beard for is playing for the Yankees.
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 29, 2023, 04:53:59 AMQuote from: Wahoo Redux on September 28, 2023, 06:58:21 PMPrivately, I think these people are misinformed dolts; publicly and professionally I say nothing whatsoever.
You've expressed it beautifully. People will get impressions of people from how they present themselves, whether they state them publicly or not.
This is why historically people have been "conservative" in how they present themselves. People who choose to wear their politics and preferences either figuratively or literally on their sleeves are extremely naive (or just completely disingenuous) to suggest that the information will have no effect on how they are perceived by others.
Ummm...yeah. I don't think that is a very controversial statement.
The same can be said of "fundy" clothing, of course, or people who wear crosses on necklaces or "Jesus Saves" T-shirts, or even people who dress "conservatively."
There are plenty of critics of people have been "conservative" in how they present themselves.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on September 29, 2023, 05:51:18 AMQuote from: marshwiggle on September 29, 2023, 04:53:59 AMQuote from: Wahoo Redux on September 28, 2023, 06:58:21 PMPrivately, I think these people are misinformed dolts; publicly and professionally I say nothing whatsoever.
You've expressed it beautifully. People will get impressions of people from how they present themselves, whether they state them publicly or not.
This is why historically people have been "conservative" in how they present themselves. People who choose to wear their politics and preferences either figuratively or literally on their sleeves are extremely naive (or just completely disingenuous) to suggest that the information will have no effect on how they are perceived by others.
Ummm...yeah. I don't think that is a very controversial statement.
The same can be said of "fundy" clothing, of course, or people who wear crosses on necklaces or "Jesus Saves" T-shirts, or even people who dress "conservatively."
There are plenty of critics of people have been "conservative" in how they present themselves.
I put quotes around "conservative" because my point wasn't about a particular political viewpoint. Perhaps a better word would have been "neutral" or "understated". What I was trying to get at is that it used to be well understood that people get along by not expressing all kinds of views which others may not share
but which are totally irrelevant to the task they have to collaborate on. Many people now turn that whole idea on its head, and express all kinds of views, and just expect
other people to treat them as irrelevant to the task they have to collaborate on.
It is an extremely optimistic view, especially for anyone who has any knowledge of how much unconscious bias affects all kinds of actions and decisions people make everyday. And
unconscious bias is exactly that; it's the bias that exists
even when people are trying to be completely fair. Potentially stacking the deck against yourself is an odd choice.
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 29, 2023, 06:13:10 AMPotentially stacking the deck against yourself is an odd choice.
I think the point is, Marshbird, that you have a very particular viewpoint that you believe most everyone else shares, and it is a conservative viewpoint. As Caracal points out, what would "stack the deck" at one point in time may no longer "stack the deck." I think tats are one of those things; they are just too ubiquitous to be offensive to most people. Anyway, people who get Nazi tattoos are not going to be worried about working on Wall Street or in the Ivory Tower----these folks have a different life agenda in mind.