Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 109667 times)

apl68

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1710 on: September 11, 2021, 06:40:21 AM »
In vaccines, as in natural virus exposure, the dose makes the poison.  A failure to calibrate vaccine doses carefully for young children could result in more severe than necessary side effects of vaccination.  That would ruin any chances of the public accepting vaccination for children.
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Puget

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1711 on: September 11, 2021, 07:11:43 AM »
Young children metabolize drugs differently than adults because of immature liver function. Therefore, the dosing may be different. For example, children may even require a higher dose per pound or kilo of body weight than adults. That is why tests have to be done specifically in children.

I don't see what it would have to do with the liver for vaccines-- there isn't anything to metabolize so far as I know. The immune response is mounted locally, at the injection site, and then spread to the rest of the body from there.

However, you are correct that children aren't just miniature adults-- there are also differences in immune function (as they are between women and men-- there was just a fascinating Radiolab episode on this that I would highly recommend).

From what I've read, they've done the dosing for each age range based on what dose produces the same protective antibody response seen in the adult trials.

Arguably, the should do the same thing at the upper end of the age spectrum, calibrating larger doses for older adults who tend to have weaker immune responses. This is already the case for some vaccines, like the flu shot where there is a high-dose version that is recommended for seniors and those with suppressed immune systems. For now, that is getting addressed instead by boosters.
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fleabite

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1712 on: September 11, 2021, 09:25:05 AM »
Apologies, yes, I was thinking about drugs rather than vaccines, and therefore did not address the question accurately.

evil_physics_witchcraft

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1713 on: September 14, 2021, 06:49:32 AM »
Contact tracing emailed me last night and just said that 'they really needed to speak with me.' Ok... Of course the email was sent at 8pm and nobody answered the phone. So, I called this morning and they don't know why they emailed me.

Sounds like our College is doing a great job with this...

Cheerful

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1714 on: September 14, 2021, 12:47:42 PM »
Contact tracing emailed me last night and just said that 'they really needed to speak with me.' Ok... Of course the email was sent at 8pm and nobody answered the phone. So, I called this morning and they don't know why they emailed me.

Sounds like our College is doing a great job with this...

Sorry, e_p_w, that's awful.

Kron3007

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1715 on: September 14, 2021, 01:53:19 PM »
I learned today that not only has Cuba developed it own covid vaccine, but it will be giving it to small children as young as 2 years old.

Call the FDA for approval here.

I suspect that Cuba is just taking shortcuts on testing and safety trials. They might get away with it, but it isn't something we should want to see happen here. The vaccine will almost certainly be effective for young children. My understanding is that they aren't even running the large control trials like they did with adults. .

Likewise, we started vaccinating pregnant women without doing any specific trials.  Sometimes, decisions have to be made with what evidence is available.  There is a long history of vaccinating very young children, so this seems like a fairly safe and calculated risk.

Many people will say that since it dosn't really impact children as bad, it is not as important to vaccinate them.  However, this misses the point with vaccines.  A part of their use is personal protection (ie. get vaccinated and you are less likely to die), but the greater power is herd immunity to prevent community spread.  This is my issue with the "personal freedom" folk.  If it were as simple as take the vaccine to protect yourself, I would say you should be completely free to choose, but the real point of a vaccine program is not really about individuals at all and is a public health issue.   

I read a recent claim from our doctors that with the delta variant and its transmisability, it is mathematically impossible for us to reach herd immunity without vaccinating children under 12, even if everyone else accepted it.  So, until we start vaccinating children they are just a breeding ground for covid and we will not get it under control.

 

evil_physics_witchcraft

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1716 on: September 14, 2021, 02:27:41 PM »
Contact tracing emailed me last night and just said that 'they really needed to speak with me.' Ok... Of course the email was sent at 8pm and nobody answered the phone. So, I called this morning and they don't know why they emailed me.

Sounds like our College is doing a great job with this...

Sorry, e_p_w, that's awful.

I emailed them again, just to double-check, and got a response! Apparently, the email was sent in error. Hmm. I know a have a COVID + student in my course, another suspected +, another possible +/flaky student and one who had it the first week of class.

Note that I was communicating with a student assistant in the email. No, I don't have a whole lot of confidence about this process.

Caracal

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1717 on: September 14, 2021, 05:55:08 PM »
I learned today that not only has Cuba developed it own covid vaccine, but it will be giving it to small children as young as 2 years old.

Call the FDA for approval here.

I suspect that Cuba is just taking shortcuts on testing and safety trials. They might get away with it, but it isn't something we should want to see happen here. The vaccine will almost certainly be effective for young children. My understanding is that they aren't even running the large control trials like they did with adults. .

Likewise, we started vaccinating pregnant women without doing any specific trials.  Sometimes, decisions have to be made with what evidence is available.  There is a long history of vaccinating very young children, so this seems like a fairly safe and calculated risk.

Many people will say that since it dosn't really impact children as bad, it is not as important to vaccinate them.  However, this misses the point with vaccines.  A part of their use is personal protection (ie. get vaccinated and you are less likely to die), but the greater power is herd immunity to prevent community spread.  This is my issue with the "personal freedom" folk.  If it were as simple as take the vaccine to protect yourself, I would say you should be completely free to choose, but the real point of a vaccine program is not really about individuals at all and is a public health issue.   

I read a recent claim from our doctors that with the delta variant and its transmisability, it is mathematically impossible for us to reach herd immunity without vaccinating children under 12, even if everyone else accepted it.  So, until we start vaccinating children they are just a breeding ground for covid and we will not get it under control.

 

It isn't ok to ask a group of people at low risk of serious illness from Covid to get vaccinated before you've made sure the vaccines are safe for them so other people can be protected. That's especially true if those people can't legally or morally make the decisions about getting vaccinated themselves.

Most vaccines have been trialed on children first because they were the ones at most risk from the disease. That's true of almost all of the early vaccines. Pregnant women are a bad comparison. There really was no biological mechanism by which pregnant women or unborn children would be at any particular risk from vaccines and they were at potentially high risk from the virus.

Now, the vaccines should work fine on kids and I haven't really seen any actual experts saying they foresee any serious problems, but there are actual mechanisms by which they could cause more side effects in kids. Probably it will be fine, but you need to actually make sure before you just starting giving them to all children.

Also, I think you've missed the point about companies and institutions requiring vaccines. It can only be justified because the vaccines carry very low risks to individuals and those risks are vastly outweighed by the benefits. It would be hugely immoral if people were being fired for refusing to take on greater risk to reduce the risk to others.

pgher

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1718 on: September 14, 2021, 06:02:00 PM »
I learned today that not only has Cuba developed it own covid vaccine, but it will be giving it to small children as young as 2 years old.

Call the FDA for approval here.

I suspect that Cuba is just taking shortcuts on testing and safety trials. They might get away with it, but it isn't something we should want to see happen here. The vaccine will almost certainly be effective for young children. My understanding is that they aren't even running the large control trials like they did with adults. .

Likewise, we started vaccinating pregnant women without doing any specific trials.  Sometimes, decisions have to be made with what evidence is available.  There is a long history of vaccinating very young children, so this seems like a fairly safe and calculated risk.

Many people will say that since it dosn't really impact children as bad, it is not as important to vaccinate them.  However, this misses the point with vaccines.  A part of their use is personal protection (ie. get vaccinated and you are less likely to die), but the greater power is herd immunity to prevent community spread.  This is my issue with the "personal freedom" folk.  If it were as simple as take the vaccine to protect yourself, I would say you should be completely free to choose, but the real point of a vaccine program is not really about individuals at all and is a public health issue.   

I read a recent claim from our doctors that with the delta variant and its transmisability, it is mathematically impossible for us to reach herd immunity without vaccinating children under 12, even if everyone else accepted it.  So, until we start vaccinating children they are just a breeding ground for covid and we will not get it under control.

 

It isn't ok to ask a group of people at low risk of serious illness from Covid to get vaccinated before you've made sure the vaccines are safe for them so other people can be protected. That's especially true if those people can't legally or morally make the decisions about getting vaccinated themselves.

Most vaccines have been trialed on children first because they were the ones at most risk from the disease. That's true of almost all of the early vaccines. Pregnant women are a bad comparison. There really was no biological mechanism by which pregnant women or unborn children would be at any particular risk from vaccines and they were at potentially high risk from the virus.

Now, the vaccines should work fine on kids and I haven't really seen any actual experts saying they foresee any serious problems, but there are actual mechanisms by which they could cause more side effects in kids. Probably it will be fine, but you need to actually make sure before you just starting giving them to all children.

Also, I think you've missed the point about companies and institutions requiring vaccines. It can only be justified because the vaccines carry very low risks to individuals and those risks are vastly outweighed by the benefits. It would be hugely immoral if people were being fired for refusing to take on greater risk to reduce the risk to others.

COVID cases have increased in children by 240% since July and now account for 29% of all reported cases. Children account for 1.6-4.0% of cumulative hospitalizations, and up to 2% of children COVID-19 cases resulted in hospitalization. Risk of death is still low, but I don't think we can say that "children aren't affected as much" or "COVID-19 doesn't result in hospitalization in children" any more. Source: AAP

Kron3007

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1719 on: September 15, 2021, 04:05:17 AM »
I learned today that not only has Cuba developed it own covid vaccine, but it will be giving it to small children as young as 2 years old.

Call the FDA for approval here.

I suspect that Cuba is just taking shortcuts on testing and safety trials. They might get away with it, but it isn't something we should want to see happen here. The vaccine will almost certainly be effective for young children. My understanding is that they aren't even running the large control trials like they did with adults. .

Likewise, we started vaccinating pregnant women without doing any specific trials.  Sometimes, decisions have to be made with what evidence is available.  There is a long history of vaccinating very young children, so this seems like a fairly safe and calculated risk.

Many people will say that since it dosn't really impact children as bad, it is not as important to vaccinate them.  However, this misses the point with vaccines.  A part of their use is personal protection (ie. get vaccinated and you are less likely to die), but the greater power is herd immunity to prevent community spread.  This is my issue with the "personal freedom" folk.  If it were as simple as take the vaccine to protect yourself, I would say you should be completely free to choose, but the real point of a vaccine program is not really about individuals at all and is a public health issue.   

I read a recent claim from our doctors that with the delta variant and its transmisability, it is mathematically impossible for us to reach herd immunity without vaccinating children under 12, even if everyone else accepted it.  So, until we start vaccinating children they are just a breeding ground for covid and we will not get it under control.

 

It isn't ok to ask a group of people at low risk of serious illness from Covid to get vaccinated before you've made sure the vaccines are safe for them so other people can be protected. That's especially true if those people can't legally or morally make the decisions about getting vaccinated themselves.

Most vaccines have been trialed on children first because they were the ones at most risk from the disease. That's true of almost all of the early vaccines. Pregnant women are a bad comparison. There really was no biological mechanism by which pregnant women or unborn children would be at any particular risk from vaccines and they were at potentially high risk from the virus.

Now, the vaccines should work fine on kids and I haven't really seen any actual experts saying they foresee any serious problems, but there are actual mechanisms by which they could cause more side effects in kids. Probably it will be fine, but you need to actually make sure before you just starting giving them to all children.

Also, I think you've missed the point about companies and institutions requiring vaccines. It can only be justified because the vaccines carry very low risks to individuals and those risks are vastly outweighed by the benefits. It would be hugely immoral if people were being fired for refusing to take on greater risk to reduce the risk to others.

This is not my area, so I would leave the risk assessment to the doctors working in that field.  My point was not that we should just start injecting them, just to highlight the importance of getting to it if/when possible and why some risk may be acceptable.  The Cuban medical system is actually pretty good, despite being resource poor, so I don't think they are just injecting wildly

Regarding vaccine mandates, where I am this is not a workplace decision and we have vaccine passports rolling out.  It is very much about preventing community spread and not personal protection.

 I think it is morally acceptable to require people to take on a low level of risk to protect others if their risk level is high.  For example, if you work in a hospital ward with immunocompromised people, you should damn well be vaccinated even though there is some risk to you.  This is an extreme example, but the point is that you not getting it puts others at risk, so whos rights are more important?  This particular personal choice impacts everyone and is a public health decision. 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 04:13:19 AM by Kron3007 »

Caracal

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1720 on: September 15, 2021, 04:43:20 AM »


COVID cases have increased in children by 240% since July and now account for 29% of all reported cases. Children account for 1.6-4.0% of cumulative hospitalizations, and up to 2% of children COVID-19 cases resulted in hospitalization. Risk of death is still low, but I don't think we can say that "children aren't affected as much" or "COVID-19 doesn't result in hospitalization in children" any more. Source: AAP

We absolutely can say that children aren't at nearly as high a risk as adults of severe illness and death. https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/COVID19_5.html

Covid cases are going up among kids because they are going up in general. They also have gone up as an overall percentage of cases because vaccinations prevent cases in adults. Kids are still at much lower risk of hospitalization and death than adults and those percentages haven't changed at all. I also wouldn't put too much stock in percentage of cases resulting in hospitalization. There's a denominator problem there given the almost certainly lower rate of diagnoses to infections for kids.

Caracal

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1721 on: September 15, 2021, 04:45:23 AM »


This is not my area, so I would leave the risk assessment to the doctors working in that field.  My point was not that we should just start injecting them, just to highlight the importance of getting to it if/when possible and why some risk may be acceptable.  The Cuban medical system is actually pretty good, despite being resource poor, so I don't think they are just injecting wildly

Regarding vaccine mandates, where I am this is not a workplace decision and we have vaccine passports rolling out.  It is very much about preventing community spread and not personal protection.

 I think it is morally acceptable to require people to take on a low level of risk to protect others if their risk level is high.  For example, if you work in a hospital ward with immunocompromised people, you should damn well be vaccinated even though there is some risk to you.  This is an extreme example, but the point is that you not getting it puts others at risk, so whos rights are more important?  This particular personal choice impacts everyone and is a public health decision.

I think we more or less agree about risk and mandates. By all accounts vaccines for kids are coming by this winter.

Stockmann

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1722 on: September 15, 2021, 06:13:44 AM »
So my employer isn't going to have a vaccine mandate , and while on paper there's going to be a mask mandate, forget about enforcement, both because basically of the higher-ups' cowardice. Contact-tracing isn't even on the radar. The only good news is that in-person attendance isn't going to be mandatory, and that I can continue to mostly teach online.

On a more positive note, I'm happy to say wife and I have finally had the second vax dose (shitty location - we had it literally on the first day it became available to us).

the_geneticist

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1723 on: September 15, 2021, 04:54:32 PM »
We have a very late start to Fall classes since we're on the quarter system.  My biggest worry isn't whether students are vaccinated or whether they will wear their masks properly.  My biggest worry is that there is NO PLAN for what criteria mean we have to go back online.  We have students in "learning groups" who take all of their classes together.  If ONE of their classmates tests positive, then they ALL have to isolate & get tested.  I could lose entire sections of students with 0 notice.  There aren't enough hours in the day for me to suddenly offer an online make-up lab (and I'd need TAs to teach it).  And I have no confidence that the TAs or I will get notified of any positive cases with enough time to do anything.  I very much doubt that the contact tracing will contact ALL of their instructors or classmates.  I don't even want to think about the nightmare of the residence halls, dining, or other common spaces.

clean

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1724 on: September 15, 2021, 06:26:49 PM »
Quote
We have a very late start to Fall classes since we're on the quarter system.  My biggest worry isn't whether students are vaccinated or whether they will wear their masks properly.  My biggest worry is that there is NO PLAN for what criteria mean we have to go back online.  We have students in "learning groups" who take all of their classes together.  If ONE of their classmates tests positive, then they ALL have to isolate & get tested.  I could lose entire sections of students with 0 notice.  There aren't enough hours in the day for me to suddenly offer an online make-up lab (and I'd need TAs to teach it).  And I have no confidence that the TAs or I will get notified of any positive cases with enough time to do anything.  I very much doubt that the contact tracing will contact ALL of their instructors or classmates.  I don't even want to think about the nightmare of the residence halls, dining, or other common spaces.

I suspect that they will follow the advice of the former president who said, "I told them to Stop Testing Please". 

IF they do not test, then no one can be positive  and require the problems you outline!!
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