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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: clean on January 14, 2023, 09:16:29 PM

Title: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: clean on January 14, 2023, 09:16:29 PM
Given the state of tit for tat in Washington politics, how soon will all of this hit the fan?

Will this encourage Biden to rethink a reelection bid?  Will it empower other democrats to run?

(AS Trump has no challenger, no one wants to be the first to declare themselves Target #1). 
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on January 14, 2023, 10:21:54 PM
I dunno, what does the law say, exactly? It should be applied, whatever it says. If it leaves room for an investigator's/judge's/prosecutor's discretion, then depending on the facts of the case, it may be a good candidate for that.

Certainly, from what I know and see, it seems like his lawyers discovered it and he's fully cooperating, and he doesn't seem to have been travelling with them/trying to sell them, so those facts alone mark a pretty big difference between the cases.

As for the political questions... The shit will hit the fan as soon as Republicans can get their house in some semblance of order. They will absolutely try to impeach him, and set up any number of investigations (especially into Hunter), etc. But... the debt ceiling needs to be raised quite soon, no? So my bet is shortly after that shitshow.

I don't think this will motivate Biden not to seek re-election. He's convinced he's the only person who can beat Trump. Only death or a significant and visible health problem will deter him. (As long as he keeps Kamala Harris sidelined, you can bet he's still planning to run.)
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on January 14, 2023, 10:52:39 PM
I don't know anything about the laws pertaining to top secret materials, but Biden is a sitting president.  As I understand it, he can look at anything he wants.  And these are a grand total (so far) of 6 pages of something, we don't know what, although apparently he has been sloppy with classified materials in the past.  And that is just it, sloppy handling of materials.  Is that a high crime or misdemeanor?   

I have no doubt that the Republicans will latch onto this as hard as they can and try to leverage it as hard as they can.  It's how we do government these days.  It just doesn't seem to be the same situation as at Mar-a-Lago, however.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Ruralguy on January 15, 2023, 06:34:35 AM
The real problem is that theres basically no precedent for prosecuting a current president. So, if its concluded that the matter should be prosecuted, it will almost certainly be taken up by Congress, and they may do it anyway. Probably the Senate would not impeach, but it would depend on what is uncovered. Of course, it would likely diminish Trump too, since the offenses are similar in some ways. i say that with the caveat that the content is not publically well characterized.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Langue_doc on January 15, 2023, 08:27:59 AM
It appears that information about the second set of documents that were found in Biden's garage was not made public until after the elections. It also appears that people other than Biden had access to the garage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/12/us/politics/biden-documents-timeline.html?name=styln-biden-documents&region=TOP_BANNER&block=storyline_menu_recirc&action=click&pgtype=Article&variant=show&is_new=false

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/14/us/biden-classified-documents-delaware.html
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Ruralguy on January 15, 2023, 09:17:19 AM
and Congress has already opened an investigation...
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: lightning on January 15, 2023, 09:58:14 AM
Yes. Apply the laws, and let the punishments fit the crimes. This way, there is no longer a Republican defense of Trump's mishandling of classified documents.
After all the probes and investigations are done for both Biden and Trump, as per Mueller Report which set the precedent of "don't bother with trying to go after a sitting president," Biden gets away with it and Trump gets punished. 
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on January 15, 2023, 11:03:44 AM
If they go after Biden then they will have to doubly thump Trump.

How the Trump, Biden classified documents cases compare (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/how-the-trump-biden-classified-documents-situations-compare)

Quote
Roughly 300 documents with classification markings — including some at the top secret level — have been recovered from Trump since he left office in January 2021.

In January 2022, the National Archives and Records Administration retrieved 15 boxes of documents, telling Justice Department officials they contained "a lot" of classified material. In August, FBI agents took about 33 boxes and containers of 11,000 documents from Mar-a-Lago, including roughly 100 with classification markings found in a storage room and an office.

So this might actually work against a Trump defense. 

If they thump Biden for 6 documents scattered throughout his house, they will have to thump Trump at least fifty times more.

Let the Republicans have their heyday. 
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on January 15, 2023, 01:13:08 PM
I mean, they're immune to feelings of shame concerning inconsistency and rank hypocrisy, so that's a dead end.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Anselm on January 15, 2023, 06:15:18 PM
Last Friday evening NPR did an entire 30 minute segment on this story.  That tells me that they think this is serious and not just a simple mistake that can be ignored.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: dismalist on January 15, 2023, 06:32:22 PM
When Trump was raided by the FBI, I thought that was overkill. I thought such absconding with documents was pretty normal. I had no evidence, mind you, just imagining how powerful people operate. Biden messing up documents therefore doesn't surprise me. Looks to me like a low crime and misdemeanor.

Everybody give the documents back and forgeddabouddit.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: marshwiggle on January 16, 2023, 06:33:13 AM
Quote from: dismalist on January 15, 2023, 06:32:22 PM
When Trump was raided by the FBI, I thought that was overkill. I thought such absconding with documents was pretty normal. I had no evidence, mind you, just imagining how powerful people operate. Biden messing up documents therefore doesn't surprise me. Looks to me like a low crime and misdemeanor.

Everybody give the documents back and forgeddabouddit.

This may sound like a dumb question, but aren't there rules for how confidential documents, especially "top secret" ones, are supposed to be handled? Given that presidents and vice-presidents have offices, with all kinds of attendant security, then unless there's a war or natural disaster that makes access to the office impossible or unsafe, why would they need to take those documents to other locations?

Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on January 16, 2023, 07:25:41 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 16, 2023, 06:33:13 AM

This may sound like a dumb question, but aren't there rules for how confidential documents, especially "top secret" ones, are supposed to be handled? Given that presidents and vice-presidents have offices, with all kinds of attendant security, then unless there's a war or natural disaster that makes access to the office impossible or unsafe, why would they need to take those documents to other locations?

Yeah, it seems to me like taking things home (especially when 'home' is not the White House) is almost always a bad idea, and almost certainly unnecessary. Stuff that needs to be kept secret shouldn't be wandering the world, unaccounted for.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Ruralguy on January 16, 2023, 07:54:46 AM
No two ways about it. They both probably violated the law. How egregiously depends on the number of docs, their classifications (top secret and such) and their content (and certainly any punishment would). The one primary difference for Trump is that he obstructed the return of the documents. The one big difference that might help Biden is that he's currently the President, though we do know that some of the documents pre-date his being President.
Other than that, I think we probably have to reserve judgement on both of these cases because we really don't know the scope. Though, yes, presidential aides and so forth have to do a better job containing these docs.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Liquidambar on January 16, 2023, 10:02:47 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 16, 2023, 06:33:13 AM
Quote from: dismalist on January 15, 2023, 06:32:22 PM
When Trump was raided by the FBI, I thought that was overkill. I thought such absconding with documents was pretty normal. I had no evidence, mind you, just imagining how powerful people operate. Biden messing up documents therefore doesn't surprise me. Looks to me like a low crime and misdemeanor.

Everybody give the documents back and forgeddabouddit.

This may sound like a dumb question, but aren't there rules for how confidential documents, especially "top secret" ones, are supposed to be handled? Given that presidents and vice-presidents have offices, with all kinds of attendant security, then unless there's a war or natural disaster that makes access to the office impossible or unsafe, why would they need to take those documents to other locations?

That's what irks me about these cases.  If Liquidspouse did this kind of stuff, he'd be fired and prosecuted.  I don't like there being a different standard for bigwigs than for lower level government employees.  Liquidspouse is very careful, and it isn't that difficult to be.  For example, he reminds his coworkers that their notes from classified meetings will also be classified, so hey, don't take notes in your regular notebook because then your notebook will have to stay at the office.  Take notes on separate paper and leave it at work.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: apl68 on January 17, 2023, 07:26:47 AM
Quote from: dismalist on January 15, 2023, 06:32:22 PM
When Trump was raided by the FBI, I thought that was overkill. I thought such absconding with documents was pretty normal. I had no evidence, mind you, just imagining how powerful people operate. Biden messing up documents therefore doesn't surprise me. Looks to me like a low crime and misdemeanor.

Everybody give the documents back and forgeddabouddit.

That would surely be the healthiest thing to do...but we know it won't happen.

Thus far it looks like both administrations have been guilty of similar carelessness with  classified documents, but the one offense seems so far to be a good deal more egregious.  There's a difference between, say, being pulled over for speeding and politely handing over one's license to the police officer, and being pulled over for DWI and acting belligerent.

It's most unfortunate for our nation that a grossly incompetent administration has been followed by a fundamentally competent administration with a rare knack for shooting itself in the foot.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on January 17, 2023, 05:01:04 PM
No way Biden will be indicted. Additionally, Biden's document investigation probably means no indictment for Trump, even thought the cases are pretty different, with Trump's being much easier to prosecute.

Impeachment is possible, but I doubt it will happen with such a narrow Republican majority in the House.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Ruralguy on January 17, 2023, 06:34:25 PM
I'm willing to bet that all of the living former presidents and heirs of the dead ones have some classified documents lying around. I am sure that they made a genuine effort to return most or all of them, but just got sloppy or felt like keeping something for some reason. That doesn't give Biden or Trump a free pass, in my opinion, though they will probably get a free pass or something close. However, Biden is likely to be impeached, but not removed from office, on something. He most certainly won't deserve that, but he'll probably get it.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: apl68 on January 18, 2023, 06:13:23 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on January 17, 2023, 06:34:25 PM
I'm willing to bet that all of the living former presidents and heirs of the dead ones have some classified documents lying around. I am sure that they made a genuine effort to return most or all of them, but just got sloppy or felt like keeping something for some reason. That doesn't give Biden or Trump a free pass, in my opinion, though they will probably get a free pass or something close. However, Biden is likely to be impeached, but not removed from office, on something. He most certainly won't deserve that, but he'll probably get it.

When you consider the sheer volume of documents that circulate during a presidential administration, it's hardly surprising that things like this happen.  It's just not possible to handle all classified documents according to perfect procedures.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on January 18, 2023, 06:57:20 AM
Isn't it? They have aides to do most of the work, and simply never taking them out of the office/secure room sure would cut down a lot on potential breaches.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Caracal on January 20, 2023, 06:54:41 AM
Quote from: Liquidambar on January 16, 2023, 10:02:47 AM


That's what irks me about these cases.  If Liquidspouse did this kind of stuff, he'd be fired and prosecuted.  I don't like there being a different standard for bigwigs than for lower level government employees.  Liquidspouse is very careful, and it isn't that difficult to be.  For example, he reminds his coworkers that their notes from classified meetings will also be classified, so hey, don't take notes in your regular notebook because then your notebook will have to stay at the office.  Take notes on separate paper and leave it at work.

It doesn't make any sense to compare the procedures that civil servants need to follow with the ones that elected officials should abide by. When Liquid Spouse goes out of town for the weekend, I assume there isn't an expectation that they will need to be available at all times to make decisions. They probably aren't being briefed by various people with classified files on their vacation, nor does their job require them to be looking at classified files constantly, no matter where they are.

The risks are really different too. If Liquidspouse brings home classified material, that stuff is just sitting in your house, which presumably is not a fortress. A Vice President or President's residence, even a personal one, on the other hand, is under protection all the time and there is extensive surveillance.

Obviously, that doesn't mean classified files should just be stored in the president's house, but it isn't comparable to anything with your husband. If there were classified files stored in your house, your spouse would be fired because he can't have classified files in the house and it would raise a lot of questions about why he would want to in the first place. Biden (and Trump) were allowed to have these documents in their homes to review-they aren't supposed to be storing them there.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on January 20, 2023, 07:41:16 AM
It's not just a question of firing--it's an offense that comes with prison time and fines, and in the past Biden has agitated for the imprisonment of those who mishandled classified documents

Also: are they allowed to bring them home? Presumably there's a policy, and presumably it's publicly available. That's what we should be referring to.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Caracal on January 20, 2023, 08:49:32 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 20, 2023, 07:41:16 AM
It's not just a question of firing--it's an offense that comes with prison time and fines, and in the past Biden has agitated for the imprisonment of those who mishandled classified documents

Also: are they allowed to bring them home? Presumably there's a policy, and presumably it's publicly available. That's what we should be referring to.

Yes, they obviously can bring them home, or on vacation, or to all kinds of places, because presidents and-to some extent-vice presidents-are always on duty. If Biden goes to Wilmington for the weekend, he is still receiving briefings and making decisions and doing those things might mean he needs access to classified documents. There actually aren't any official policies about this-there are policies about classification generally and they specify various requirements that agencies need to abide by and specify that these agencies need to have their own policies that fit with these guidelines. These things don't apply to the president.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: clean on January 20, 2023, 08:57:00 AM
Quoteare they allowed to bring them home?

Given the job that these officials have is 24/7, there is no 'home' in the sense that they are 'off the clock' and in a 'private space'. They have something more akin to 'secondary/tertiary office locations'.  There is, essentially, no 'home'.

But the documents should have a 'keeper' and a place (like a staff member with a briefcase).  I would suggest that the document can leave the briefcase at any time, but should be tracked and periodically updated... "where is/do you still require document X007?"  IF not, then it goes back in the box (briefcase).

One difference I see is the argument that "these are mine!"  (Kim Jun Un's letters), or "I can declassify them by just thinking about it". 

So is this, in once case, stealing (They are MY property), or poor record keeping, or (likely for both) fast, careless packing (perhaps by staff)?
For instance, what happens if someone is fired and barred from campus or dies while working?  Who cleans their office, and what becomes of the contents?  (In my experience, my deceased coworker's children came to his office and cleaned it out, I helped in that they planned to donate his books to Goodwill or to sell them at the used bookstore if they were new enough.  I looked some over to remove any test banks or solutions manuals.
Alternatively (and Im wondering about this myself now), if you retire, how careful will you be with what you take home?  A recently (2 years ago) retiree was teaching until he retired, so he didnt have a lot of time to clear out as someone else was scheduled to move in!  We talked the other day and he was asking what he should NOW do with old exams given he doesnt have a shredder and doesnt really want to haul it all back to campus for a shredding day.  (We no longer have student workers that could be used for such things).

Anyway, i think that there are failures, but in context of the recent events, some are intentional and stealing ("It's mine" in response to a request to have it returned, and it is in a box in the garage.... with what other items, that came from where? .... or in Trump's case there is also a defense that the files were in boxes of pens, buttons and shirts, likely packed at the last minute, and unlikely packed by Trump himself!)
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Caracal on January 20, 2023, 09:09:01 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 20, 2023, 07:41:16 AM
It's not just a question of firing--it's an offense that comes with prison time and fines, and in the past Biden has agitated for the imprisonment of those who mishandled classified documents

Also: are they allowed to bring them home? Presumably there's a policy, and presumably it's publicly available. That's what we should be referring to.

For what it's worth-there are various laws that involve unauthorized possession of government records-classified or not, but they all involve language about either intent or "gross negligence." I kinda doubt that Biden himself was packing documents in boxes and putting them in his garage so it seems quite unlikely there's going to be any kind of criminal charge here.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on January 20, 2023, 09:42:55 AM
Quote from: Caracal on January 20, 2023, 08:49:32 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 20, 2023, 07:41:16 AM
It's not just a question of firing--it's an offense that comes with prison time and fines, and in the past Biden has agitated for the imprisonment of those who mishandled classified documents

Also: are they allowed to bring them home? Presumably there's a policy, and presumably it's publicly available. That's what we should be referring to.

Yes, they obviously can bring them home, or on vacation, or to all kinds of places, because presidents and-to some extent-vice presidents-are always on duty. If Biden goes to Wilmington for the weekend, he is still receiving briefings and making decisions and doing those things might mean he needs access to classified documents. There actually aren't any official policies about this-there are policies about classification generally and they specify various requirements that agencies need to abide by and specify that these agencies need to have their own policies that fit with these guidelines. These things don't apply to the president.

Again, it's not obvious. It's certainly plausible, but I would want to see the text of the laws or policies governing the handling of classified documents. Whatever the rules are, they apply to everyone equally, or not at all. If Presidents need special dispensation, then that must be reflected in the laws or policies governing the handling of classified documents. And I would be very surprised if it wasn't. There's no question that a sitting President may need immediate access to certain records, or access to someone who has access. But surely there are policies and procedures governing that access, if not outright laws. So what we need to know, I think, is what those are. (I believe that the GSA has regulations concerning their storage, for example, including what kinds of locks and cabinets are acceptable.)

But even if we grant that Presidents need to leave their documents strewn around various office buildings and residences, such an exception obviously doesn't apply to people who aren't the President. And, unfortunately, this is true of at least some of Biden's documents (which are left over from his time in the Obama administration), as well as all of Trump's. On this score, the Presidential Records Act (if nothing else--and again, I don't know about laws governing classification, which is why I'm asking for their specific text) is very clear, even if it lacks teeth.

I don't have a good solution for what should be done about it, because yes, it's extra complicated when the person who violated laws or protocols is currently the top government official, and when the violation happened before they were in that position. You certainly can't strip a sitting President of his security clearance, after all. This may be a good case for deferred consequences. But what I don't approve of is the application of different legal standards to powerful people. Nobody should be above the law, and if the law is unjust, then the time to figure that out is before you prosecute others for violating it--and, preferably, before you violate it.


Quote from: Caracal on January 20, 2023, 09:09:01 AM

For what it's worth-there are various laws that involve unauthorized possession of government records-classified or not, but they all involve language about either intent or "gross negligence." I kinda doubt that Biden himself was packing documents in boxes and putting them in his garage so it seems quite unlikely there's going to be any kind of criminal charge here.

That may well be the case, but in that case my worry is about how that language has been interpreted when applied to ordinary people. So, for example, it doesn't seem to me like Asia Janay Lavarello (https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/11/politics/justice-department-classified-info-hotel-home-sentence/index.html) was any more negligent or nefarious than Biden (and certainly less so than Trump!), but she got three months in prison and a $5500 fine.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: dismalist on January 20, 2023, 10:07:54 AM
That the documents were classified is something of a red herring. The President determines what is classified, though he can delegate this to department heads. This is by executive order of the President! So the President is not just another employee of the government. Nor is the Vice-President.

What is not a red herring is that the documents are owned by the Archives. They must get them back. Biden returned them without fuss. Trump returned some, but not others. Noise! The Archives will get them back, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Langue_doc on January 20, 2023, 10:28:35 AM
Here's the latest from the NYT.

Quote68 Days of Silence: Why the White House Stayed Mum on Classified Documents
Advisers to President Biden calculated that the Justice Department would view possession of the documents as little more than a good-faith mistake.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/20/us/politics/biden-classified-documents.html
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Caracal on January 21, 2023, 07:38:52 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 20, 2023, 09:42:55 AM
Quote from: Caracal on January 20, 2023, 08:49:32 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 20, 2023, 07:41:16 AM
It's not just a question of firing--it's an offense that comes with prison time and fines, and in the past Biden has agitated for the imprisonment of those who mishandled classified documents

Also: are they allowed to bring them home? Presumably there's a policy, and presumably it's publicly available. That's what we should be referring to.

Yes, they obviously can bring them home, or on vacation, or to all kinds of places, because presidents and-to some extent-vice presidents-are always on duty. If Biden goes to Wilmington for the weekend, he is still receiving briefings and making decisions and doing those things might mean he needs access to classified documents. There actually aren't any official policies about this-there are policies about classification generally and they specify various requirements that agencies need to abide by and specify that these agencies need to have their own policies that fit with these guidelines. These things don't apply to the president.

Again, it's not obvious. It's certainly plausible, but I would want to see the text of the laws or policies governing the handling of classified documents. Whatever the rules are, they apply to everyone equally, or not at all. If Presidents need special dispensation, then that must be reflected in the laws or policies governing the handling of classified documents. And I would be very surprised if it wasn't. There's no question that a sitting President may need immediate access to certain records, or access to someone who has access. But surely there are policies and procedures governing that access, if not outright laws. So what we need to know, I think, is what those are. (I believe that the GSA has regulations concerning their storage, for example, including what kinds of locks and cabinets are acceptable.)

But even if we grant that Presidents need to leave their documents strewn around various office buildings and residences, such an exception obviously doesn't apply to people who aren't the President. And, unfortunately, this is true of at least some of Biden's documents (which are left over from his time in the Obama administration), as well as all of Trump's. On this score, the Presidential Records Act (if nothing else--and again, I don't know about laws governing classification, which is why I'm asking for their specific text) is very clear, even if it lacks teeth.

I don't have a good solution for what should be done about it, because yes, it's extra complicated when the person who violated laws or protocols is currently the top government official, and when the violation happened before they were in that position. You certainly can't strip a sitting President of his security clearance, after all. This may be a good case for deferred consequences. But what I don't approve of is the application of different legal standards to powerful people. Nobody should be above the law, and if the law is unjust, then the time to figure that out is before you prosecute others for violating it--and, preferably, before you violate it.


Quote from: Caracal on January 20, 2023, 09:09:01 AM

For what it's worth-there are various laws that involve unauthorized possession of government records-classified or not, but they all involve language about either intent or "gross negligence." I kinda doubt that Biden himself was packing documents in boxes and putting them in his garage so it seems quite unlikely there's going to be any kind of criminal charge here.

That may well be the case, but in that case my worry is about how that language has been interpreted when applied to ordinary people. So, for example, it doesn't seem to me like Asia Janay Lavarello (https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/11/politics/justice-department-classified-info-hotel-home-sentence/index.html) was any more negligent or nefarious than Biden (and certainly less so than Trump!), but she got three months in prison and a $5500 fine.

Well, the situation isn't comparable. She's an employee of the state department working abroad. I'm sure the state department has a long list of rules about handling of classified documents-and clearly an employee isn't supposed to just have them in their hotel room. Taking something you weren't supposed to take out of an embassy, and then leaving it in your hotel room, where it isn't supposed to be, is quite different from having something you were allowed to have at one point, in a place you were allowed to have it, but failing to return it when you were supposed to. The former pretty clearly shows either intent or gross negligence. The latter isn't as clear. The one parallel to Trump is the way Lavarello responded after she was told she had classified documents. She didn't immediately bring them back, as you would expect someone who had just made a boneheaded mistake to do-she didn't return them for two days despite repeated efforts to get her to bring them back.

I'm not really sure criminal charges were necessary in Lavarello's case. I would guess that there was an extensive investigation because the FBI was worried about possible espionage. When it turned out that this was just someone who was incredibly cavalier about following the rules, they had done all this investigating and wanted to charge her with something.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: kaysixteen on January 21, 2023, 11:56:20 PM
Sorrta brings up the reality that,  if it chooses to do so, the Federales can more or less find something to charge anyone with, more or less always.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on January 22, 2023, 09:58:07 AM
Quote from: Caracal on January 21, 2023, 07:38:52 AM
I'm not really sure criminal charges were necessary in Lavarello's case. I would guess that there was an extensive investigation because the FBI was worried about possible espionage. When it turned out that this was just someone who was incredibly cavalier about following the rules, they had done all this investigating and wanted to charge her with something.

From  the CNN link provided by Para (https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/11/politics/justice-department-classified-info-hotel-home-sentence/index.html):

Quote
Lavarello was working on a classified thesis at the time [that classified docs were found in her Paris apartment during a dinner party], her lawyer Birney Bervar told CNN. She had been encouraged to pursue the thesis and been working on it at the embassy's secure information facility until Covid-19 shut things down earlier that year, her lawyer said. The documents she took home were three other classified theses, her lawyer told CNN, and she had no intention of transmitting the classified information or of harming the United States.

Lavarello was confronted about the documents that night, according to her plea agreement, but she did not take steps that night to return them to the embassy's secure information facility. With the help of one of the dinner party guests, she returned the documents to a safe in the embassy two days later, the court filings said, but she did not return the documents to the secure information facility as she had said at the time that she would do.

She was terminated from her temporary assignment that month because of her mishandling of the documents. In her plea agreement, Lavarello also admitted to transporting from the Philippines to Hawaii later that month a notebook containing classified information. The notebook were handwritten notes from a meeting that were later classified, her lawyer told CNN. According to the court documents, she kept that notebook at her residence, which was not an authorized location for storing classified information. The notebook was later found at her workspace in Honolulu after a search warrant was executed, according to the court filings.

Sounds deliberate and egregious to me.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Langue_doc on January 22, 2023, 10:03:15 AM
The latest on the documents:

QuoteInvestigators Seize More Classified Documents From Biden's Home
A team from the Justice Department conducted a 13-hour search of the president's Wilmington residence on Friday.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/21/us/politics/biden-documents.html
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Caracal on January 23, 2023, 08:44:18 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on January 22, 2023, 09:58:07 AM
Quote from: Caracal on January 21, 2023, 07:38:52 AM
I'm not really sure criminal charges were necessary in Lavarello's case. I would guess that there was an extensive investigation because the FBI was worried about possible espionage. When it turned out that this was just someone who was incredibly cavalier about following the rules, they had done all this investigating and wanted to charge her with something.

From  the CNN link provided by Para (https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/11/politics/justice-department-classified-info-hotel-home-sentence/index.html):

Quote
Lavarello was working on a classified thesis at the time [that classified docs were found in her Paris apartment during a dinner party], her lawyer Birney Bervar told CNN. She had been encouraged to pursue the thesis and been working on it at the embassy's secure information facility until Covid-19 shut things down earlier that year, her lawyer said. The documents she took home were three other classified theses, her lawyer told CNN, and she had no intention of transmitting the classified information or of harming the United States.

Lavarello was confronted about the documents that night, according to her plea agreement, but she did not take steps that night to return them to the embassy's secure information facility. With the help of one of the dinner party guests, she returned the documents to a safe in the embassy two days later, the court filings said, but she did not return the documents to the secure information facility as she had said at the time that she would do.

She was terminated from her temporary assignment that month because of her mishandling of the documents. In her plea agreement, Lavarello also admitted to transporting from the Philippines to Hawaii later that month a notebook containing classified information. The notebook were handwritten notes from a meeting that were later classified, her lawyer told CNN. According to the court documents, she kept that notebook at her residence, which was not an authorized location for storing classified information. The notebook was later found at her workspace in Honolulu after a search warrant was executed, according to the court filings.

Sounds deliberate and egregious to me.

Sure, but I get nervous about the tendency to criminalize violations of rules and procedures. The government classifies huge amounts of material, the vast majority of which wouldn't really be of any use to anybody other than academics. I guess there's no way to know what kind of information was in these theses, but I strongly suspect it was stuff about US diplomacy 30 years ago or something. Of course, she should have been fired, but I'm just not sure about the need for criminal charges.

The notebook seems like the kind of thing that would turn up on half the desks of people working in the state department if they did extensive searches. You go to some meeting, it isn't labeled as classified, and then two weeks later you get some email about how it is classified now and it gets lost in your inbox and you forget you were supposed to tear out the notes and put them in a secure place. I'm sure it happens almost constantly.

Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on January 23, 2023, 10:31:59 AM
I agree with Caracal, but then again, the government probably needs to have some pretty harsh penalties to deter people from being careless with top secret stuff.  Probably getting fired is enough.  I suppose we'd have to know what Lavarello had her hands on to get a really accurate picture of what she was up to.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Langue_doc on January 24, 2023, 11:45:22 AM
The plot thickens...

QuoteClassified Documents Found at Pence's Home in Indiana
The documents were "inadvertently boxed and transported" to the former vice president's home at the end of the Trump administration, Mr. Pence's representative wrote in a letter to the National Archives.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/24/us/politics/mike-pence-classified-documents.html
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on January 24, 2023, 01:11:13 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 24, 2023, 11:45:22 AM
The plot thickens...

QuoteClassified Documents Found at Pence's Home in Indiana
The documents were "inadvertently boxed and transported" to the former vice president's home at the end of the Trump administration, Mr. Pence's representative wrote in a letter to the National Archives.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/24/us/politics/mike-pence-classified-documents.html

Oh for pete's sake...are we going to find slippery material in every high level politician's house!?!?

Tell the CIA and Homeland Security to get a grip on this bid'ness.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: secundem_artem on January 24, 2023, 02:38:17 PM
Meanwhile, underneath a hay bale in Jimmy Carter's barn.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on January 24, 2023, 04:32:17 PM
Hard to imagine any of these folks being indicted over classified docs at this point.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: apl68 on January 25, 2023, 06:48:02 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on January 24, 2023, 02:38:17 PM
Meanwhile, underneath a hay bale in Jimmy Carter's barn.

Actually, it may well be that goof-ups like this have indeed been happening for many years, and are only recently getting to be an issue.  The Trump administration being what it was, the goof-ups apparently happened on a larger-than-usual scale.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on January 25, 2023, 07:56:34 AM
NBC News: America's system for handling classified documents is broken, say lawmakers and former officials (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/americas-system-classified-documents-broken-rcna66106)

Ya'think!?

Quote
"It's their job to make sure these busy policymakers understand the importance of classification and return the documents to their proper place," said [professor] Johnson, who was a congressional aide on intelligence committees and advised previous administrations about intelligence matters.

"There's an incredible amount of sloppiness in the handling of these documents that's really quite disconcerting," Johnson said. "We need some stiff penalties for people in the chain of custody who don't take their jobs seriously enough."

White House staff members are supposed to log every classified document, assign it a number and keep track so the document can be accounted for at all times. Former officials say the process unraveled somewhat during the Trump administration, because of the president's habits and some inexperienced staff members. But supporters of the former president have denied that portrayal.

In Congress, lawmakers and staff members with clearances have to follow strict rules and look through material in secure rooms.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: Caracal on January 27, 2023, 07:13:19 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on January 25, 2023, 07:56:34 AM
NBC News: America's system for handling classified documents is broken, say lawmakers and former officials (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/americas-system-classified-documents-broken-rcna66106)

Ya'think!?

Quote
"It's their job to make sure these busy policymakers understand the importance of classification and return the documents to their proper place," said [professor] Johnson, who was a congressional aide on intelligence committees and advised previous administrations about intelligence matters.

"There's an incredible amount of sloppiness in the handling of these documents that's really quite disconcerting," Johnson said. "We need some stiff penalties for people in the chain of custody who don't take their jobs seriously enough."

White House staff members are supposed to log every classified document, assign it a number and keep track so the document can be accounted for at all times. Former officials say the process unraveled somewhat during the Trump administration, because of the president's habits and some inexperienced staff members. But supporters of the former president have denied that portrayal.

In Congress, lawmakers and staff members with clearances have to follow strict rules and look through material in secure rooms.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/01/26/government-secrecy-classification-transparency-accountability/

Summary: Way too much stuff is classified and most of this classified stuff wouldn't be damaging at all if it came to light. You can see how this is going to just inevitably lead to everyone having classified documents they aren't supposed to have. If only a few things were classified, and those things were clearly sensitive documents, it would be easy enough to keep track of them. If every fourth piece of paper that crosses your desk has a classified marker on it, mostly for no particularly good reason, you can see how things end up in the wrong place.

Again, though. The issue is not really that Trump had classified documents at Mar-A-Lago. The problem is that when the archives told him they thought he might have stuff, he seems to have lied and deliberately tried to avoid returning them. Same thing with Lavarello. I'm pretty sure that if it came to light that she had notes from a classified meeting in a notebook she took home, she would have just gotten a reprimand, because that kind of stuff probably happens all the time and its an easy mistake to make. The part that got her in trouble was that she deliberately took things she should't have and then didn't return them promptly.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: apl68 on January 27, 2023, 07:44:43 AM
Quote from: Caracal on January 27, 2023, 07:13:19 AM

Again, though. The issue is not really that Trump had classified documents at Mar-A-Lago. The problem is that when the archives told him they thought he might have stuff, he seems to have lied and deliberately tried to avoid returning them. Same thing with Lavarello. I'm pretty sure that if it came to light that she had notes from a classified meeting in a notebook she took home, she would have just gotten a reprimand, because that kind of stuff probably happens all the time and its an easy mistake to make. The part that got her in trouble was that she deliberately took things she should't have and then didn't return them promptly.

A recent political cartoon sums it up like this:  First panel shows Biden handing over a box of classified material with a chagrined expression on his face and saying "Oops!"  Second panel shows Trump standing in front of a big stack of boxes of classified documents and screaming "Mine!  Mine!  All mine!"
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Biden? Are impeachment actions looming?
Post by: dismalist on January 30, 2023, 10:27:25 AM
Here is some discussion  and cited evidence that the source of the problem is that everything is classified!

https://prospect.org/politics/2023-01-30-president-classified-document-scandal/ (https://prospect.org/politics/2023-01-30-president-classified-document-scandal/)