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unproductive postdoc

Started by PI, December 12, 2023, 10:06:15 AM

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PI


I have been trying my best to help nurture whoever I select despite sometimes finding that they are not as good as they look on the paper. This results in much-delayed papers, but overall they turn out to be valuable. However, a recent postdoc does not seem to be creative or effective. He is a very good person (international candidate). I gave him some warning a few months ago that we may not renew the contract (after 1 year) and he should look for jobs.
However, I am unsure how to recommend him for other postdoc positions (he has me as a reference). What can I say so that he can move on and have a chance elsewhere, but also not have to lie? Next, we are having an end-of-a-year party at my house. I feel a bit awkward inviting him given that he may have to leave soon due to the termination of his contract. We are on good terms and I even reached out to a couple of people to ask if they could use a postdoc with his background.
Finally, I thought about taking him out to a "farewell lunch" to talk about my support in the future and ease his departure. He understands why we can't continue as he knows his productivity was not good at all. Any suggestions of similar experiences you could share?

Puget

To me the big question is *why* his productivity was poor?
Does he not have the skillset for the work in your lab?
Did he have trouble adjusting to working and living in the US?
Did less than fluent English skills slow him down?
Is he just not motivated?

Some of those might get better, or not be an issue in another lab, in which case you can state clearly in your recommendation why he would be a better fit now/in the new lab. Whatever you do, don't lie to your colleagues about him!

And by all means, don't exclude him from the party and do have lunch with him. Treat him as you would want to be treated. Don't make this worse for him than it already is!
"Never get separated from your lunch. Never get separated from your friends. Never climb up anything you can't climb down."
–Best Colorado Peak Hikes

doc700

One thing I've been concerned about when I've not renewed a rotation graduate student/postdoc is managing the expectations of others in the group.  Its important to end the relationship on a civil note if possible for the sake of that postdoc.  But I've also been concerned about others in my lab who are doing great but might panic if they saw someone else not renewed.  So beyond this particular postdoc, making things pleasant might be helpful for your full lab culture.

I'm curious why this person is a postdoc in the first place?  What are their career goals?  If they are not productive as a postdoc in your group, its possible they could be more successful in a different environment but still unlikely they can get a top faculty job.  Industry doesn't require years of postdoc experience.  Maybe you can discuss with them a wider range of options besides other postdocs where they would have the skills to be successful?

PI

All, It is difficult to say why. But for any given problem, his critical thinking and reading skills (comprehending what is in a paper) seem very low. So if I tell him exactly what to do, things may work. But I expect mroe from a postdoc. So it might be that the training was not good during PhD. He has first-author papers, which I am now assuming were heavily helped by the advisor. So I feel like he is a Ph.D. student level and will need extensive training/help.. I am thinking about trying to get him to work with a collaborator of mine who seems desperate to get a postdoc.. So we can try a different type of problem. Thanks again.. Yes will do lunch and also a party. I just was not sure if that would be awkward for him.
His English is fine. So communication is not the problem, but critical thinking is.

Ruralguy

I agree with not lying to colleagues. if your honesty doesn't get a job, then why does that fall on you? if you are telling the truth, then it falls on the post-doc for not performing. True that it might not be his fault, and it might not be a coach's fault (or the quarterbacks) when a team loses, but if there isn't expected production, heads roll.
Its unpleasant, but that doesn't mean its wrong, just that its difficult. 

Kron3007

Based on what you are saying, I would try to steer them toward more technical positions.  It seems they are not really suited for what we expect from postdocs here, but they could be a decent technician.

From my experience, the training system seems much different in some countries.  I have worked with PhDs and Postdocs that needed very specific instructions and were not able/willing to work independently.  When given specific instructions, they were amazing, but without it they didnt know what to do.  I can only assume they are products of their system as they were not stupid by any means. 

Regardless, do not recommend them for positions you know they will not do well in.  It is not fair to the postdoc or the potential future supervisor.   

Puget

Quote from: Kron3007 on December 13, 2023, 09:20:13 AMBased on what you are saying, I would try to steer them toward more technical positions.  It seems they are not really suited for what we expect from postdocs here, but they could be a decent technician.

From my experience, the training system seems much different in some countries.  I have worked with PhDs and Postdocs that needed very specific instructions and were not able/willing to work independently.  When given specific instructions, they were amazing, but without it they didnt know what to do.  I can only assume they are products of their system as they were not stupid by any means. 

Regardless, do not recommend them for positions you know they will not do well in.  It is not fair to the postdoc or the potential future supervisor.   

This! Do an honest assessment of his strengths and weaknesses in your recommendations, and try to steer him to positions that are aligned with his strengths. If he has good technical or analytic skills but just isn't good at more independent research, then an industry job where his tasks are well-defined could be a good fit (and pay better than a postdoc).
"Never get separated from your lunch. Never get separated from your friends. Never climb up anything you can't climb down."
–Best Colorado Peak Hikes