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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mamselle on May 31, 2020, 09:59:10 AM

Title: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on May 31, 2020, 09:59:10 AM
I am deeply saddened, and at a loss to understand how one human being could treat another so.

This tribute

   https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/amberjamieson/george-floyd-obituary

and these reports

   https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/us/derek-chauvin-george-floyd-worked-together.html

   https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/us/minneapolis-police-george-floyd.html

offer some background.

How do we learn from and teach about such situations so as to make a difference going forward?

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 31, 2020, 10:04:18 AM
Now we need to decide how to go forward when we see this atrocity repeating itself.  New protocols and training, more bodycams.  And this sort of sentiment:

https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/2020/05/flint-area-police-join-protesters-marching-to-seek-justice-for-george-floyd.html

Police are not necessarily the enemy.  They do a lot for us.  But they need to change their culture.  The ball is in their court to change the dynamic that is ripping us apart during already bad times.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on May 31, 2020, 10:06:44 AM
Wow. Thank you for that post.

Yes, that's a totally different paradigm.

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 31, 2020, 10:26:15 AM
It looks to me like "reform" has not worked. We've been talking about reform for decades, and yet police still routinely abuse, assault, and murder suspects, especially those of colour. They routinely plant evidence, as we've seen in Baltimore and elsewhere, and still can't interrogate suspects properly, without leading them to false confessions. They can't be trusted to investigate certain kinds of crimes (like sexual assault) or crimes committed against certain kinds of people. And they can't even be trusted to rely on accurate, credible, reliable scientific evidence, as the widespread reliance on forensic odontology, gunshot residue, and lie detectors attest (to say nothing of the problems with fingerprinting, or the widespread assumption that asking for a lawyer indicates guilt or, hell, attempts to deny suspects access to their lawyers).

And then there are the prosecutors, into whose hands plea bargaining has concentrated the powers formerly vested in the judge and jury, who routinely violate Brady by withholding  material and exculpatory evidence, and who enjoy immunity from the law for all of their many misdeeds. And whose case histories are never reviewed after they've been found to habitually violate prosecutorial standards (or the law).

It's all broken, and the time for piecemeal reform has passed. Body cams and implicit bias training simply will not do. You need to disarm regular police, and you need to consistently and systematically prosecute police and prosecutorial misconduct, and make real efforts to stamp it out. And no more of this firing officers only to see them transfer to a department in some other state.

It's popular to attribute such misdeeds to a few bad apples, but people seem to forget the rest of the saying: a few bad apples spoil the bunch. The rot here runs very, very deep, and needs to be systematically extirpated.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 31, 2020, 10:30:14 AM
Oh, and maybe states should do away with the maximum IQ threshold for cops. No more denying applicants "because they're too smart".
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on May 31, 2020, 10:33:27 AM
I'm often reminded of the longstanding differences between UK police (who did not, maybe still do not) carry guns, and the US, where (correct me if I'm wrong) most do.

The difference being, of course, also, that in the UK, even knives have been banned to the general public on safety grounds, and guns were even further beyond the pale (at least up to the times I'm familiar with; if recent changes have occurred, I might be out-of-date in my assumptions).

Just putting the means of lethal force into the hands of a cop-on-the-beat seems to send a worrisome message, empowering a kind of life-or-death decision-making power that needs to be dialed back as well.

The philosophy of care and enforcement unfold from some of those decisions, I think, as well.

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 31, 2020, 11:04:34 AM
Charged: The New Movement to Change American Prosecution (https://www.amazon.com/Charged-Movement-Transform-Prosecution-Incarceration/dp/0399590013).

Many ways to start the conversation.  A book might not be the best way, but it helps to have facts at your fingertips.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on May 31, 2020, 11:14:09 AM
Thanks.

In a pebble-in-a-river way, an editor friend is working with a local author in her Texas locale on a book on mitigation, to help families of those detained understand their rights and the procedures by which retributive sentencing can be addressed.

Apparently there are no non-expert books on the topic that advise individuals of their rights or options for redress; she's trying to help with that.

M.

 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: sprout on May 31, 2020, 11:28:37 AM
Now we need to decide how to go forward when we see this atrocity repeating itself.  New protocols and training, more bodycams.  And this sort of sentiment:

https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/2020/05/flint-area-police-join-protesters-marching-to-seek-justice-for-george-floyd.html

Police are not necessarily the enemy.  They do a lot for us.  But they need to change their culture.  The ball is in their court to change the dynamic that is ripping us apart during already bad times.

Thank you for sharing that.  The whole situation is so incredibly sad and frustrating and I feel powerless to effect actual change, and hopeless that actual change is possible.  It's heartening to see a story with a positive interaction between police and protesters.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: writingprof on May 31, 2020, 11:34:13 AM
You need to disarm regular police.

I wish Biden would come out in favor of this.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on May 31, 2020, 11:42:16 AM
Yes.

The worship service I've been watching from my 'home' (raised-as-a-child) church in Columbus, OH, included a reflective sermon by one of the clerics who was in the demonstration there on Saturday.

    [This: http://fcchurch.tv/4838-2/  was last week's service, it will be a couple days before today's service is posted to the archives]

Looking up other nearby events, there was an article on another event that went less well.

But at one point they apparently did try to suggest that the police put down their batons, so the idea, albeit ignored in that setting, has traveled.

The cleric's description of providing milk and eye drops for those affected by the tear gas made me remember the day in 11th grade when our student teacher came into class after the weekend of riots on the OSU campus in sympathy with the Kent State killings of the previous week.

He, too, described being affected by the heavy presence of tear gas near his on-campus apartment, and being told by the police nearby to "go home."

To which he replied, "This is my home. I live right over there."

I don't think people knew about milk and eye drops then, though.

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: secundem_artem on May 31, 2020, 01:06:48 PM
I heard a former police officer (Baltimore maybe??) interviewed on NPR a couple of years back.  He claimed that many officers are fairly frightened of black men, which explains their frequent over the top reaction when arresting them.  As a result, black men are frightened of the police and may choose to resist arrest.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

Do that long enough and you get neverending Michael Brown, Philando Castile, Eric Garner, George Floyd kinds of scenarios. 

As long as both sides are unduly afraid of each other, I don't see this stopping anytime soon.  Eventually the pressure builds.  And pressure must eventually be relieved.  So demonstrations turn into riots which turn into an armed response and both sides can blame the other for being the bad actors.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: theblackbox on May 31, 2020, 01:37:03 PM
I'm glad to see discussion on this topic here since I think there is much more potential for this unrest and response to police brutality to grow than before. Unemployment is high. People are economically stressed. What made the George Floyd murder so distressing was how blatant it was, how unafraid those officers were to continue what they were doing despite being filmed, despite bystanders and eye witnesses pleading that they stop. When all pretenses of being able to hold cops accountable are gone (good cops will intervene, witnesses can be allies and not stand for it, recording/bodycams will regulate this kind of behavior, etc.), so is any last remnant of public trust or confidence in justice.

Disarming the police sounds great, but the reality is that with an armed citizenry, you need an armed police force. You can't expect American cops to raid a suspected murderer's house with batons and knives; the likelihood that the murder has a gun is too high. According to a Gallup poll last year, 43% of American households have guns in them. https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx (https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx)
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: spork on May 31, 2020, 02:10:41 PM
The USA has what is probably the most heavily militarized municipal, county, and state police forces in the world. Right now I'm watching video of armored personnel carriers on city streets and police wearing more body armor than Marines who walked patrol in combat in Afghanistan and Iraq, responding ineffectively and violently to peaceful protesters (while not responding at all to criminal activity like theft and arson). Police in this country are generally trained to respond to members of the public with overwhelming force -- including deadly force -- when they perceive non-compliance with their commands (whether or not the non-compliance is actually occurring). Toss in implicit racism and you get blacks being killed by police at far higher rates than whites, usually without judicial prosecution afterward.

It's pretty easy to feel like the policy are an occupying army in this kind of situation.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on May 31, 2020, 04:23:56 PM
You need to disarm regular police.

I wish Biden would come out in favor of this.

So when he doesn't will you like him more, or less?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: hmaria1609 on May 31, 2020, 05:24:17 PM
There's a curfew at 11 pm for DC tonight:
https://wtop.com/dc/2020/05/dc-protests-of-george-floyds-death-expected-for-a-3rd-night/ (https://wtop.com/dc/2020/05/dc-protests-of-george-floyds-death-expected-for-a-3rd-night/)
During the 10 pm local newscast last night, there was coverage of the protests in front of the White House.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on May 31, 2020, 05:54:38 PM
We need to also see the possibility of light at the end.

Police join in protest unity (https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/05/31/in-some-cities-police-officers-joined-protesters-marching-against-brutality/?utm_campaign=forbes&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_term=Gordie%2F&fbclid=IwAR1PJAasLxVjmrjTpWSKCWnD4KB97mgd8WJjAMphzoWqWmzASmYFN2unkoQ#4bfc77475edb).
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: quasihumanist on May 31, 2020, 07:37:01 PM
We need to make any death of a person at the hands of police, except in the cases where they have obviously (as a matter of fact, not as a matter of perception) no other option, (and regardless of whether the police actively caused such a death or merely failed to take action to prevent it) a crime.

Part of the purpose is to tell people who think they might be at risk of losing their cool and killing someone or letting them die that they had better not join the police unless they want to end up in jail because they lost their cool.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: nebo113 on June 01, 2020, 05:09:36 AM
This country was founded to protect white male property owners, a number of whom held enslaved people.  The power structure today, predominately white and male, protects and supports the very wealthy.  Until that underlying dynamic is recognized, nothing will change.  And yes, I am white, female, and therefore privileged.....and very, very sober.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 01, 2020, 07:28:38 AM
This country was founded to protect white male property owners, a number of whom held enslaved people.  The power structure today, predominately white and male, protects and supports the very wealthy.  Until that underlying dynamic is recognized, nothing will change.  And yes, I am white, female, and therefore privileged.....and very, very sober.

Just curious. If male motorists are pulled over more than female ones often for traffic infractions, speeding, burnt out taillight, or other stated purpose, is there an injustice to be addressed?

And please, If anyone chooses to respond, I am not comparing such a scenario to the tragic George Floyd situation. Just interested in finding out what people think.

Aside: I have a friend is 6'4" 250 lbs. He claims large men are pulled over more often than small men.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Cheerful on June 01, 2020, 07:34:40 AM
I am deeply saddened, and at a loss to understand how one human being could treat another so.

How do we learn from and teach about such situations so as to make a difference going forward?

These statements could also apply to how the elderly have been treated before and during the pandemic.  Where is the outcry and protesting regarding how the U.S. views and treats its elderly?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 01, 2020, 07:40:27 AM
I am deeply saddened, and at a loss to understand how one human being could treat another so.

How do we learn from and teach about such situations so as to make a difference going forward?

These statements could also apply to how the elderly have been treated before and during the pandemic.  Where is the outcry and protesting regarding how the U.S. views and treats its elderly?

Specifically what? Flu like viruses have a bias against the elderly of course, but it seems to me many are working hard to take care of the elderly. The US has so many elderly because of that. Of course, there is room for improvement.
Cuomo has taken some heat for sending them from hospitals back to the older folks living facilities where they were in close quarters with others. But what's the logic in leaving them in hospital when others need treatment, I wonder. These were calculated risks.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: apl68 on June 01, 2020, 08:04:57 AM
One of the ironies here is that this current wave of protests was touched off despite the police department in question acting promptly, for once, to deal with the offending officers.  This is an URGENT wake-up call for police departments around the country to clean house.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 01, 2020, 08:26:40 AM
Both the far left and the far right are ridiculously inconsistent and it shows in situations like this.

On the far left, people are in favour of sweeping government power to legislate all kinds of things, but are totally paranoid about the enforcement of laws, and want to restrict that as much as possible.

On the far right, people are paranoid of government legislation and want to restrict their ability to make laws, but are willing to grant sweeping powers to law enforcement.

Centrists feel that in order to have a society, governemnts need to have some ability to make and enforce laws, but because both those who make the laws and those who enforce them are fallible human beings, the powers need to be limited, and monitored constantly.

The extremists have the advantage of being able to make pithy slogans that fit on placards; the centrists have the disadvantage that a Twitter post can't contain the nuance necessary for a meaningful discussion.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on June 01, 2020, 08:26:57 AM
In one sense, yes, it's true they were all disciplined by the end of the day.

But the larger concern is that only the direct perpetrator was charged, and only with 3rd degree murder, while the rest, so far as I've yet seen, were not charged at all--and the three of them, acting together, could have almost certainly saved Floyd's life...so that's a serious concern also.

I went to sleep, very fitfully and slowly, last night, sort of pray-wondering, why didn't people in the crowd step in? Any three of them could have overcome the arresting officer and gotten Floyd up, done CPR, or...something.

I was reminded of the fourth plane on 9/11....where were their spiritual or practical heirs?

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 01, 2020, 09:37:00 AM
Both the far left and the far right are ridiculously inconsistent and it shows in situations like this.

On the far left, people are in favour of sweeping government power to legislate all kinds of things, but are totally paranoid about the enforcement of laws, and want to restrict that as much as possible.

On the far right, people are paranoid of government legislation and want to restrict their ability to make laws, but are willing to grant sweeping powers to law enforcement.

Centrists feel that in order to have a society, governemnts need to have some ability to make and enforce laws, but because both those who make the laws and those who enforce them are fallible human beings, the powers need to be limited, and monitored constantly.

The extremists have the advantage of being able to make pithy slogans that fit on placards; the centrists have the disadvantage that a Twitter post can't contain the nuance necessary for a meaningful discussion.

'And if either the right or the left wing gets total control of the country, it will fly in circles.' Pat Paulsen

In one sense, yes, it's true they were all disciplined by the end of the day.

But the larger concern is that only the direct perpetrator was charged, and only with 3rd degree murder, while the rest, so far as I've yet seen, were not charged at all--and the three of them, acting together, could have almost certainly saved Floyd's life...so that's a serious concern also.
M.

I suppose Officer Chauvin could be a bully who has intimidated the other cops at some point. Also I have experienced first hand where cops cover things up  for each other (such as negligence) or suddenly become unavailable if you have too many questions. It doesn't have to involve race (and I know you didn't say it did).
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Economizer on June 01, 2020, 10:07:37 AM
President Trump has been advised that the most injurious and provocative of the "demonstrators" are the "ANTIFA". It has been supposed in the press that term means "anti-Facists". So who the heck are the Facists?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 01, 2020, 10:22:04 AM
President Trump has been advised that the most injurious and provocative of the "demonstrators" are the "ANTIFA". It has been supposed in the press that term means "anti-Facists". So who the heck are the Facists?
Anyone Antifa dislikes, by definition.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 01, 2020, 10:25:55 AM
President Trump has been advised that the most injurious and provocative of the "demonstrators" are the "ANTIFA". It has been supposed in the press that term means "anti-Facists". So who the heck are the Facists?

Great. Is the person who advised him knowledgeable, or another hack who got his job by kissing Trump's ass?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 01, 2020, 11:54:22 AM
The police and National Guard in Kentucky opened fire on a crowd (https://www.vox.com/2020/6/1/21276706/louisville-kentucky-protests-breonna-taylor-george-floyd-police) last night. One man was killed (well, murdered).
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Economizer on June 01, 2020, 12:03:13 PM
The police are doing their job in trying to protect the lives, liberties
and properties of everyone concerned.
In return they get compensation, limited legal protections, and rights to defend themselves and other concerned persons and personnel. They are successful in their manners of action 99.9999 % of the time. That is the way we do things in the U.S.A. And, whether you are a citizen or not you get their best efforts. Even the
 provocateurs of disorder are most likely to seek out the best police protection coverage for their possessions and their selves as they do their disruptive deeds!


Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Bonnie on June 01, 2020, 01:33:41 PM
One of the ironies here is that this current wave of protests was touched off despite the police department in question acting promptly, for once, to deal with the offending officers.  This is an URGENT wake-up call for police departments around the country to clean house.

But Mike Freeman did not act quickly. He needed rebellion to charge a lesser than appropriate charge against one of four officers. So not really ironic. Video of a minutes long murder, multiple officers assisting, onlookers pleading for the officer to stop, and Freeman needed rebellion to make an inadequate charge.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: spork on June 01, 2020, 02:11:46 PM
I just saw a video identified as from somewhere in Minnesota, I presume a residential neighborhood in Minneapolis. Detached homes, trees, lawns. The only people walking down the street were police in riot gear randomly screaming "Get inside!" The person filming was sitting on their front stoop. A few of the police officers stopped, one of them yelled "Light 'em up!" and another fired some kind of anti-riot/crowd dispersal weapon several times at the person behind the camera, who had to scramble inside through their front door.

Edited to add: I found it online. Whittier neighborhood. The newscasters identify the weapon as paint canisters (I guess paint balls), the people being fired at were sitting on their front porch as part of a neighborhood watch:

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/30/light-em-up-video-appears-to-show-law-enforcement-shooting-paint-rounds-at-citizens-on-their-porch/ (https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/30/light-em-up-video-appears-to-show-law-enforcement-shooting-paint-rounds-at-citizens-on-their-porch/).

Edited a second time: some people are identifying the uniformed, armed individuals shooting at people on their own private property as members of the MN national guard.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 01, 2020, 02:20:32 PM
The police are doing their job in trying to protect the lives, liberties
and properties of everyone concerned.
In return they get compensation, limited legal protections, and rights to defend themselves and other concerned persons and personnel. They are successful in their manners of action 99.9999 % of the time. That is the way we do things in the U.S.A. And, whether you are a citizen or not you get their best efforts. Even the
 provocateurs of disorder are most likely to seek out the best police protection coverage for their possessions and their selves as they do their disruptive deeds!

They won't always get it. The police have some amount of option to take sides. One example: somebody's car is vandalized.  Then somebody else gets a bunch of threats over the telephone, accusing them of the damage and threatening retaliation. The threatened party then goes to file a complaint. The police magistrate then has the option to make the charge of criminal harassment, or to ignore it, figuring the threatened person will be getting what he deserves.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Bonnie on June 01, 2020, 02:40:17 PM
I just saw a video identified as from somewhere in Minnesota, I presume a residential neighborhood in Minneapolis. Detached homes, trees, lawns. The only people walking down the street were police in riot gear randomly screaming "Get inside!" The person filming was sitting on their front stoop. A few of the police officers stopped, one of them yelled "Light 'em up!" and another fired some kind of anti-riot/crowd dispersal weapon several times at the person behind the camera, who had to scramble inside through their front door.

Edited to add: I found it online. Whittier neighborhood. The newscasters identify the weapon as paint canisters (I guess paint balls), the people being fired at were sitting on their front porch as part of a neighborhood watch:

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/30/light-em-up-video-appears-to-show-law-enforcement-shooting-paint-rounds-at-citizens-on-their-porch/ (https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/30/light-em-up-video-appears-to-show-law-enforcement-shooting-paint-rounds-at-citizens-on-their-porch/).

Edited a second time: some people are identifying the uniformed, armed individuals shooting at people on their own private property as members of the MN national guard.

I think I saw the same video (one that sounds a lot like it). It is worth noting that the curfew order allowed for being on one's porch.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 01, 2020, 02:40:41 PM
The police are doing their job in trying to protect the lives, liberties
and properties of everyone concerned.
In return they get compensation, limited legal protections, and rights to defend themselves and other concerned persons and personnel. They are successful in their manners of action 99.9999 % of the time. That is the way we do things in the U.S.A. And, whether you are a citizen or not you get their best efforts. Even the
 provocateurs of disorder are most likely to seek out the best police protection coverage for their possessions and their selves as they do their disruptive deeds!

A lot of this depends on who and where you are.

Sure, we have literally millions of interactions (https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/press/cpp15pr.pdf) with police every year.

Personally the police and DA in my state of origin helped my family out a great deal and saved my aged mother's estate from the predation of one of our own family members.  I have always been very grateful.  I even got a phone call from a detective who noticed my mother's heating system had broken down.  Great people.  We are white and middle-class.  Still, for us the police worked exactly as they were supposed to, even to the treatment of the poor, mentally-ill, drug-addicted family member going after my mom's checking account.  They protected and served.

At the same time, we cannot forget the egregious, atrocious abuses (https://www.businessinsider.com/more-than-80-percent-of-the-thousands-held-at-chicagos-police-black-site-were-black-2015-8) and simply pretend these are not symptomatic of an essential problem in our society.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 01, 2020, 02:55:15 PM
President Trump has been advised that the most injurious and provocative of the "demonstrators" are the "ANTIFA". It has been supposed in the press that term means "anti-Facists". So who the heck are the Facists?
Anyone Antifa dislikes, by definition.

Well, the future. They believe that it's like the frog in boiling water. Once the fascist doctrine shows its real face, it's already a forgone conclusion.
I have a friend who says 'if trump is reelected in 2020, say goodbye to elections.'
If Trump had lived in 1930's Germany, he would have risen through the ranks of government.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 01, 2020, 03:05:07 PM
If Trump had lived in 1930's Germany, he would have risen through the ranks of government.

Military parade, anyone?

Thank God America is stronger than that.

We hope.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 01, 2020, 03:09:47 PM
They believe that it's like the frog in boiling water.

FWIW, those frogs were lobotomized. If you put non-lobotomized frogs into a pot of water and slowly heat it, they jump out long before it boils them to death.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 01, 2020, 03:22:08 PM
They believe that it's like the frog in boiling water.

FWIW, those frogs were lobotomized. If you put non-lobotomized frogs into a pot of water and slowly heat it, they jump out long before it boils them to death.

didn't know that, thank you.

Shouldn't attending a second Trump rally count as a lobotomy?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Diogenes on June 01, 2020, 04:23:29 PM
The police are doing their job in trying to protect the lives, liberties
and properties of everyone concerned.
In return they get compensation, limited legal protections, and rights to defend themselves and other concerned persons and personnel. They are successful in their manners of action 99.9999 % of the time. That is the way we do things in the U.S.A. And, whether you are a citizen or not you get their best efforts. Even the
 provocateurs of disorder are most likely to seek out the best police protection coverage for their possessions and their selves as they do their disruptive deeds!

I'll start by saying that I do not condone the fringe activity of the looters and vandalizers.

But the police are not doing their job- in most cases they are escalating the conflict in their approach rolling in with military gear. And causing more of a scene.

When the police treat the protestors with respect and carve out a space for them to do it safely, less violence and vandalism happens. They don't start flipping cop cars when the police take their helmets off and treat them with respect.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 01, 2020, 04:59:19 PM
The police response has been nothing short of horrific. I assume you've all seen and heard about it already, but it's worth posting for anyone who missed it: in NYC, the police drove SUVs (https://time.com/5845631/nypd-protests-vehicles-protesters/) into the protesters (mercifully, it seems that nobody was seriously injured). De Blasio was all for it, too, until moments ago.

Meanwhile, in Minneapolis, someone drove a tanker truck (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/truck-driver-minneapolis-protesters-bogdan-vechirko-interstate-35w/) into a crowd of protesters. Some protesters surrounded the driver to prevent his being seriously hurt and escorted him to the police, who then promptly pepper-sprayed his rescuers.

In St. Louis, a FedEx truck (https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/05/31/man-dragged-by-fedex-truck-dies-during-night-of-george-floyd-protests-in-st-louis/) tried to drive through a blockade and dragged and killed one person.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 01, 2020, 05:07:13 PM
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Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on June 01, 2020, 05:39:19 PM
I was heartened, in the midst of the terrible things reported above, to see this:

   https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2020/06/01/amanpour-houston-art-acevedo-george-floyd.cnn

This is the police chief of Houston, where the Floyd's family still live.

Such a difference.

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 01, 2020, 05:41:30 PM
Addendum: I'm seeing reports that in addition to NYC, police in Boston, LA (https://www.foxla.com/news/video-shows-lapd-vehicle-driving-through-crowd-and-striking-protesters-before-speeding-away), and Lakeland (OH) drove vehicles into crowds. (I've not yet found a news source directly confirming the Boston and Lakeland incidents, just others referring to them and some Twitter videos.)

I just can't even.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Economizer on June 01, 2020, 06:32:05 PM
I say decisive leadership is needed, justified, and supplied. What would Joe Biden have done? Thoroughly address the underlying issues or immediately address the life and property concerns of a broad cross section of citizens suffering from the acts of hooligans. Every business does not have insurance coverage for civil unrest. Can they afford even more days of reduced or no income. Can thousands more workers not be able to go to work or have to replace their income stream all together? I am sure that Mr. Biden is a better politician than President Trump but his politics would definitely force him to be "namby-pamby" in such a situation that requires immediate action to protect the large number of metropolitan areas being damaged, and to not allow hostile peoples opportunities to prey on our nation as a whole.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 01, 2020, 06:34:52 PM
I say decisive leadership needed, justified, and supplied. What
would Joe Biden have done? Thoroughly address the underlying issues or immediately address the life and property concerns of a broad cross section of citizens suffering from the acts of hooligans. Every business does not have insurance coverage for civil unrest. Can they afford even more days of reduced or no income.
Can thousands more workers not be able to go to work or have to replace their income stream all together. I am sure that Mr. Biden is a better politician than President Trump but his politics would definitely force him to be "namby-pamby" in such a situation that requires immediate action to protect the large number of metropolitan being damaged, and to not allow hostile peoples opportunities to prey on our nation as a whole.

Oh, do you mean the cops?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 01, 2020, 06:38:07 PM
"Where is Joe Biden?" is a very important question, especially given how he tries to portray his relation to the Black community.

As for the rest... damage to human beings matters a lot more than property damage. The pregnant woman in Austin (https://www.gofundme.com/f/20ty421zyo?sharetype=teams&member=4526616&utm_medium=more&utm_source=customer&utm_campaign=p_na+share-sheet&pc_code=null&rcid=17f16cf0bee743d4b016fa256212e56a) who was shot in the abdomen matters a lot more than any number of shop windows. The numerous protesters and bystanders who have lost eyes to the police matter more than any number of burning cars. And the people the police have murdered in an effort to demonstrate their restraint matter more than any lost income.

It's the cops who are rioting. And there's nobody to keep them in check.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on June 01, 2020, 06:42:58 PM
I was heartened, in the midst of the terrible things reported above, to see this:

   https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2020/06/01/amanpour-houston-art-acevedo-george-floyd.cnn

This is the police chief of Houston, where the Floyd's family still live.

Such a difference.

M.

So far, Flint, Camden, and Houston have shown an alternative path.

I want to see others pick up that trail and follow it.

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 01, 2020, 06:45:18 PM
I say decisive leadership is needed, justified, and supplied. What would Joe Biden have done? Thoroughly address the underlying issues or immediately address the life and property concerns of a broad cross section of citizens suffering from the acts of hooligans. Every business does not have insurance coverage for civil unrest. Can they afford even more days of reduced or no income. Can thousands more workers not be able to go to work or have to replace their income stream all together? I am sure that Mr. Biden is a better politician than President Trump but his politics would definitely force him to be "namby-pamby" in such a situation that requires immediate action to protect the large number of metropolitan areas being damaged, and to not allow hostile peoples opportunities to prey on our nation as a whole.

And how is this approach working?  Do we see the protests winding down?  What do you think the legacy of a strong-arm approach is going to be?

As several people have pointed out, police walking with protesters works.
Firing on protesters so that Trump can have a photo-shoot does not.

As long as he was taking credit for the economy Obama built, Trump could at least pretend.
In the midst of two ongoing national crises, Trump is a third crisis in the making.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 01, 2020, 07:18:04 PM
I fear and also suspect the two big crises now are going to be to Trump's political advantage. When things are bad a demagogue like him has new opportunities to create villains, build them up. He can become the law and order guy, the guy who was right about the Chinese all along, etc. Hatred is money in the bank of campaigning, for him. He knows how to make it play in his favor, by instinct.
I say decisive leadership is needed, justified, and supplied. What would Joe Biden have done? Thoroughly address the underlying issues or immediately address the life and property concerns of a broad cross section of citizens suffering from the acts of hooligans. Every business does not have insurance coverage for civil unrest. Can they afford even more days of reduced or no income. Can thousands more workers not be able to go to work or have to replace their income stream all together? I am sure that Mr. Biden is a better politician than President Trump but his politics would definitely force him to be "namby-pamby" in such a situation that requires immediate action to protect the large number of metropolitan areas being damaged, and to not allow hostile peoples opportunities to prey on our nation as a whole.

And how is this approach working?  Do we see the protests winding down?  What do you think the legacy of a strong-arm approach is going to be?

As several people have pointed out, police walking with protesters works.
Firing on protesters so that Trump can have a photo-shoot does not.

As long as he was taking credit for the economy Obama built, Trump could at least pretend.
In the midst of two ongoing national crises, Trump is a third crisis in the making.

As long as he is appealing to hate, and the more his fans listen to him, the more hate they feel, he can keep momentum. Now he's talking about us being at war.
'No one likes to admit it, but hate is not an unpleasant emotion, and in war time we are encouraged to indulge in an orgy of hate.' Andy Rooney..    Chaos is a place Trump is comfortable. Gets to sound decisive and resolved. People take sides, grey areas recede.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: lightning on June 02, 2020, 01:17:11 AM
I say decisive leadership is needed, justified, and supplied. What would Joe Biden have done? Thoroughly address the underlying issues or immediately address the life and property concerns of a broad cross section of citizens suffering from the acts of hooligans. Every business does not have insurance coverage for civil unrest. Can they afford even more days of reduced or no income. Can thousands more workers not be able to go to work or have to replace their income stream all together? I am sure that Mr. Biden is a better politician than President Trump but his politics would definitely force him to be "namby-pamby" in such a situation that requires immediate action to protect the large number of metropolitan areas being damaged, and to not allow hostile peoples opportunities to prey on our nation as a whole.

Who the f**k cares what Joe Biden would have done. He's not the president. Quit deflecting.
And, no, it's not decisive leadership to hide when the protests/riots are happening.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: lightning on June 02, 2020, 01:20:32 AM
It looks to me like "reform" has not worked. We've been talking about reform for decades, and yet police still routinely abuse, assault, and murder suspects, especially those of colour. They routinely plant evidence, as we've seen in Baltimore and elsewhere, and still can't interrogate suspects properly, without leading them to false confessions. They can't be trusted to investigate certain kinds of crimes (like sexual assault) or crimes committed against certain kinds of people. And they can't even be trusted to rely on accurate, credible, reliable scientific evidence, as the widespread reliance on forensic odontology, gunshot residue, and lie detectors attest (to say nothing of the problems with fingerprinting, or the widespread assumption that asking for a lawyer indicates guilt or, hell, attempts to deny suspects access to their lawyers).

And then there are the prosecutors, into whose hands plea bargaining has concentrated the powers formerly vested in the judge and jury, who routinely violate Brady by withholding  material and exculpatory evidence, and who enjoy immunity from the law for all of their many misdeeds. And whose case histories are never reviewed after they've been found to habitually violate prosecutorial standards (or the law).

It's all broken, and the time for piecemeal reform has passed. Body cams and implicit bias training simply will not do. You need to disarm regular police, and you need to consistently and systematically prosecute police and prosecutorial misconduct, and make real efforts to stamp it out. And no more of this firing officers only to see them transfer to a department in some other state.

It's popular to attribute such misdeeds to a few bad apples, but people seem to forget the rest of the saying: a few bad apples spoil the bunch. The rot here runs very, very deep, and needs to be systematically extirpated.

Comedian Chris Rock sums it up best:

"Whenever the cops gun down an innocent black man, they always say the same thing: 'Well, it’s not most cops. It’s just a few bad apples. It’s just a few bad apples.'

Bad apple? That’s a lovely name for murderer. That almost sounds nice. I’ve had a bad apple. It was tart, but it didn’t choke me out. Here’s the thing. Here’s the thing. I know being a cop is hard. I know that shit’s dangerous. I know it is, okay? But some jobs can’t have bad apples.

Some jobs, everybody gotta be good. Like … pilots. Ya know, American Airlines can’t be like, 'Most of our pilots like to land. We just got a few bad apples that like to crash into mountains. Please bear with us.'"
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Treehugger on June 02, 2020, 03:19:11 AM
I fear and also suspect the two big crises now are going to be to Trump's political advantage. When things are bad a demagogue like him has new opportunities to create villains, build them up. He can become the law and order guy, the guy who was right about the Chinese all along, etc. Hatred is money in the bank of campaigning, for him. He knows how to make it play in his favor, by instinct.
I say decisive leadership is needed, justified, and supplied. What would Joe Biden have done? Thoroughly address the underlying issues or immediately address the life and property concerns of a broad cross section of citizens suffering from the acts of hooligans. Every business does not have insurance coverage for civil unrest. Can they afford even more days of reduced or no income. Can thousands more workers not be able to go to work or have to replace their income stream all together? I am sure that Mr. Biden is a better politician than President Trump but his politics would definitely force him to be "namby-pamby" in such a situation that requires immediate action to protect the large number of metropolitan areas being damaged, and to not allow hostile peoples opportunities to prey on our nation as a whole.

And how is this approach working?  Do we see the protests winding down?  What do you think the legacy of a strong-arm approach is going to be?

As several people have pointed out, police walking with protesters works.
Firing on protesters so that Trump can have a photo-shoot does not.

As long as he was taking credit for the economy Obama built, Trump could at least pretend.
In the midst of two ongoing national crises, Trump is a third crisis in the making.

As long as he is appealing to hate, and the more his fans listen to him, the more hate they feel, he can keep momentum. Now he's talking about us being at war.
'No one likes to admit it, but hate is not an unpleasant emotion, and in war time we are encouraged to indulge in an orgy of hate.' Andy Rooney..    Chaos is a place Trump is comfortable. Gets to sound decisive and resolved. People take sides, grey areas recede.


Hmmm. I get why you are concerned. But doesn’t a “law and order” platform work if only you are not the incumbent? If everything devolved into chaos on your watch, why would anyone expect anything different during a second term?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: bacardiandlime on June 02, 2020, 05:10:19 AM
Hmmm. I get why you are concerned. But doesn’t a “law and order” platform work if only you are not the incumbent? If everything devolved into chaos on your watch, why would anyone expect anything different during a second term?

The tactic I assume would be to pass the blame for riots onto Democrat mayors and governors.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Cheerful on June 02, 2020, 06:48:43 AM

Comedian Chris Rock sums it up best:

"Whenever the cops gun down an innocent black man, they always say the same thing: 'Well, it’s not most cops. It’s just a few bad apples. It’s just a few bad apples.'

Bad apple? That’s a lovely name for murderer. That almost sounds nice. I’ve had a bad apple. It was tart, but it didn’t choke me out. Here’s the thing. Here’s the thing. I know being a cop is hard. I know that shit’s dangerous. I know it is, okay? But some jobs can’t have bad apples.

Some jobs, everybody gotta be good. Like … pilots. Ya know, American Airlines can’t be like, 'Most of our pilots like to land. We just got a few bad apples that like to crash into mountains. Please bear with us.'"

I hadn't heard that, thanks lightning.  Well-stated.  I looked up the quote.  It's from 2018 and Chris also said:  "I don’t think they pay cops enough. And you get what you pay for."

Salary structures in the U.S. are bizarre.  It's the same for nursing home workers (and in many other key sectors).  Low salaries and we expect them to do harrowing, difficult, often unpleasant work for our nation's most vulnerable.

Amazing that some fulfill these essential roles in society.  Is there sufficient diversity in the police force?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 02, 2020, 06:49:57 AM
I say decisive leadership is needed, justified, and supplied. What would Joe Biden have done? Thoroughly address the underlying issues or immediately address the life and property concerns of a broad cross section of citizens suffering from the acts of hooligans. Every business does not have insurance coverage for civil unrest. Can they afford even more days of reduced or no income. Can thousands more workers not be able to go to work or have to replace their income stream all together? I am sure that Mr. Biden is a better politician than President Trump but his politics would definitely force him to be "namby-pamby" in such a situation that requires immediate action to protect the large number of metropolitan areas being damaged, and to not allow hostile peoples opportunities to prey on our nation as a whole.

Who the f**k cares what Joe Biden would have done. He's not the president. Quit deflecting.
And, no, it's not decisive leadership to hide when the protests/riots are happening.

I can tell you what he would not have done. Right here. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-trump-police-dont-worry-people-custody-hitting-heads-squad-cars

You can't have a president who rejects the standards of decent treatment of suspects while they're being arrested console or lead a nation through the mess we have now.

As for being a leader during a time of unrest and pain, Biden could try to do it, and he would be equipped with a reputation as a decent person, which Trump is not. But then leading with an iron fist when you have plenty to do it with doesn't require much deftness, and probably some would enjoy seeing it.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Diogenes on June 02, 2020, 08:24:15 AM

Comedian Chris Rock sums it up best:

"Whenever the cops gun down an innocent black man, they always say the same thing: 'Well, it’s not most cops. It’s just a few bad apples. It’s just a few bad apples.'

Bad apple? That’s a lovely name for murderer. That almost sounds nice. I’ve had a bad apple. It was tart, but it didn’t choke me out. Here’s the thing. Here’s the thing. I know being a cop is hard. I know that shit’s dangerous. I know it is, okay? But some jobs can’t have bad apples.

Some jobs, everybody gotta be good. Like … pilots. Ya know, American Airlines can’t be like, 'Most of our pilots like to land. We just got a few bad apples that like to crash into mountains. Please bear with us.'"

I also like John Oliver's point that one Bad Apple is all it takes. We can all guarantee Snow White is never going to eat another apple again.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaD84DTGULo
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 02, 2020, 08:56:17 AM
Photo-op: Trump standing with a Bible in his hands with riots across the country because of police brutality, one or four bad apples (you decide), exacerbated by tear-gas and the threat of our own army.

That screams of desperation and stupidity to me.

Please go ahead, explain how this is not something Biden would do.  Maybe blame Obama or Hilary? 

There are all sorts of rhetorical tacks for avoiding the obvious.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: AmLitHist on June 02, 2020, 09:23:48 AM
Joe delivered a wonderful speech (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2aWDG87nJo) this morning in Philadelphia. 

In StL, a retired black police captain was killed (https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/retired-police-captain-shot-to-death-at-st-louis-pawn-shop-in-slaying-caught-on/article_d482138c-0224-5393-bd87-9898bebb3fd1.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1) while responding to alarms at a friend's pawn shop as it was being looted.  It was live-streamed on Facebook.

Trump confirms my atheism:  if there's a God, Trump should've been struck down when he ordered the streets cleared so he could get his photo op holding up a Bible in front of the church.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 02, 2020, 10:45:37 AM
I'm just wondering what Biden would think about this (https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/02/us/police-protesters-together/index.html).
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: spork on June 02, 2020, 11:17:56 AM
The Fulton County district attorney has issued arrest warrants for the six police officers involved in the Tasering and arrest of two black college students in Atlanta. Two of the officers have already been fired. Charges include aggravated assault and criminal property damage.

Account of the event in The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/05/31/us/ap-us-america-protests-atlanta-excessive-force.html (https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/05/31/us/ap-us-america-protests-atlanta-excessive-force.html).

Press conference today detailing what led to criminal charges against police officers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4EcMMO6FFE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4EcMMO6FFE).

Video of police body cam footage of the event, followed by mayor's statement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fSZiG4BMLs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fSZiG4BMLs).


Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Catherder on June 02, 2020, 11:24:36 AM
More American (and Canadian) institutions have to respond to brutality with definitive action. I just read a statement from the president of my alma mater in Massachusetts.  Following the tear-gassing and arrest of peaceful demonstrators in the university neighbourhood, he has ended all university association with or use of the municipal police, and is launching an inquiry into the events at the demonstration with the promise of making findings public.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: secundem_artem on June 03, 2020, 08:32:46 AM
A number of years ago, one of my students was married to a police officer.  Her husband's police force had just been involved in a major chase which resulted in the driver being pulled out of the car and getting some up close and personal experience with a series of billy clubs and police boots.

As her husband told her, once the adrenaline kicks in during a chase (or presumably a riot), the lizard brain takes over and people should not be surprised when Officer Barbrady let's his inner bully off the leash.

That all sounds well and good, but if us civilians get all ramped up in a given situation and don't have full control over our actions, words or emotions.... well you can guess how that ends.

I had several police officers in my family and a former high school classmate go into the force.  It may be a stereotype, but it does seem that far too many members along the thin blue line were academically mediocre high school football players who needed an excuse to maintain their liking for occasional lashings of the old ultra-violence.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 03, 2020, 08:53:47 AM
Interesting ^

A friend of mine's son was shot to death by an off duty police officer. They claimed he had held up the off duty (or was it plain-clothed)  cop and his wife at knife point and was shot because the policeman feared for their lives. The family asked, how did he he get a knife on the plane with him (he was on a two day vacation.) I don't know what happened, but I don't see why he had to be shot to death. White guy. There were no marches. Investigation cleared the cop.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 03, 2020, 08:55:28 AM
I had several police officers in my family and a former high school classmate go into the force.  It may be a stereotype, but it does seem that far too many members along the thin blue line were academically mediocre high school football players who needed an excuse to maintain their liking for occasional lashings of the old ultra-violence.

The other side of that coin is thinking about why anyone would want to go into the profession. You get yelled at, insulted, occasionally have to put your life at risk, the pay isn't great, and when you have the most difficult situations to deal with (i.e. violent confrontations), your actions are going to be the most scrutinized after the fact.

Like working in a long term care home and having to change adult diapers (and clean up those kind of messes) for minimum wage or close to it, I'm amazed anyone does it.

There are a whole class of jobs we couldn't do without but have so many negative things about them that it's incredible they get any applicants.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 03, 2020, 09:36:28 AM


The other side of that coin is thinking about why anyone would want to go into the profession. You get yelled at, insulted, occasionally have to put your life at risk, the pay isn't great, and when you have the most difficult situations to deal with (i.e. violent confrontations), your actions are going to be the most scrutinized after the fact.

Like working in a long term care home and having to change adult diapers (and clean up those kind of messes) for minimum wage or close to it, I'm amazed anyone does it.

There are a whole class of jobs we couldn't do without but have so many negative things about them that it's incredible they get any applicants.


FWIW, in this part of the country a recruit fresh out of the academy (for which they need only a HS diploma) is paid more than I am. And that's already more than the median household income in this part of the country. With three years of experience, they earn more than the highest-paid profs at my university. And that's all before overtime.

While it's true that our faculty are the lowest-paid in the country, and I would consider our salaries low, they're relatively low. For an 18 year-old or a 21 year-old with only a HS diploma, that's quite high.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: apl68 on June 03, 2020, 10:29:15 AM
In our town police and firefighters make little more than state minimum starting out. I make more than either chief--and I'm one of the lowest-paid qualified librarians in the state.  We get freshly-qualified police and firefighters passing through who use our town as a way-station to better-paid work.  We've also got a core of firefighters and officers (and other civic employees) who put up with the atrocious pay long-term because this is their community and they want to be a part of it.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: apl68 on June 03, 2020, 10:35:49 AM
No demonstrations here so far.  There were reports a couple of nights ago of youths congregating and throwing rocks.  It had some people worried, but nothing seems to have come of it.

Tomorrow evening there is a community solidarity event scheduled at a public site.  The police chief and mayor are among the organizers.

One of my staff members has a son in the National Guard who was deployed to watch demonstrations in the state capital.  Though we've had little violence in our state, the mother was having trouble sleeping for worrying about her son.  Understandable, given that a number of law officers have been shot, run over, or stoned nationwide during these protests.  Those officers and Guard troops are somebody's loved ones too.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 03, 2020, 11:07:59 AM
A number of years ago, one of my students was married to a police officer.  Her husband's police force had just been involved in a major chase which resulted in the driver being pulled out of the car and getting some up close and personal experience with a series of billy clubs and police boots.

As her husband told her, once the adrenaline kicks in during a chase (or presumably a riot), the lizard brain takes over and people should not be surprised when Officer Barbrady let's his inner bully off the leash.

That all sounds well and good, but if us civilians get all ramped up in a given situation and don't have full control over our actions, words or emotions.... well you can guess how that ends.

I had several police officers in my family and a former high school classmate go into the force.  It may be a stereotype, but it does seem that far too many members along the thin blue line were academically mediocre high school football players who needed an excuse to maintain their liking for occasional lashings of the old ultra-violence.

Wouldn't quarrel with this, but...OTOH, I may score higher on an IQ test, but wouldn't want me protecting me as a cop. Not even after extensive training. Maybe if I were taller and stronger. But probably not. It takes a certain kind of physical courage and a strong stomach.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 03, 2020, 02:10:49 PM
Chauvin's charge has been upgraded to second-degree murder, and the three other cops are being charged with aiding and abetting. (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/03/3-more-cops-charged-in-george-floyd-death-other-officers-murder-charge-upgraded.html?__source=iosappshare%7Ccom.apple.UIKit.activity.PostToFacebook&fbclid=IwAR2zGbkNtehFt86ed6RfYOuK_7UMeAXRpnJUUKqfHzJTpjGQkbJ43E_pJwA)
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 03, 2020, 02:23:19 PM
Chauvin's charge has been upgraded to second-degree murder, and the three other cops are being charged with aiding and abetting. (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/03/3-more-cops-charged-in-george-floyd-death-other-officers-murder-charge-upgraded.html?__source=iosappshare%7Ccom.apple.UIKit.activity.PostToFacebook&fbclid=IwAR2zGbkNtehFt86ed6RfYOuK_7UMeAXRpnJUUKqfHzJTpjGQkbJ43E_pJwA)

I still remember the visceral shock the first time I saw the Rodney King beating.  I just couldn't believe what I was seeing.

I remember the shock when the officer-assailants were acquitted even though there was proof that they had lied in their reports.

And I remember the fear in my mother's voice when she called me to make sure I was okay when she saw images of the riots in L.A. (which I was nowhere near) on the news.  There were no riots in my city back then, but there was tension in the air.

Geeze I hope we don't have that again.

I had several police officers in my family and a former high school classmate go into the force.  It may be a stereotype, but it does seem that far too many members along the thin blue line were academically mediocre high school football players who needed an excuse to maintain their liking for occasional lashings of the old ultra-violence.

What I said before is that a lot of this depends on where one is and the society surrounding perpetrators and cops.  I think some of these cities and isolated rural locals are just cultural pressure-cookers, and that seems to make a huge difference.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: spork on June 03, 2020, 02:49:35 PM
Very few Minneapolis police officers actually live in the city of Minneapolis. Hardly any, or maybe zero, live in the city's heavily segregated non-white, poor neighborhoods.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 05, 2020, 10:39:16 AM
Jacobin has two (incomplete) compendia of police violence during these protests. I recommend reading them, but you should be warned that it's really, really disturbing.

Compendium 1 (https://jacobinmag.com/2020/6/george-floyd-protests-police-brutality)
Compendium 2 (https://jacobinmag.com/2020/06/police-riot-brutality-george-floyd-protests)


Meanwhile, in Canada, it looks like the cops have drawn some inspiration from their American counterparts and decided to go on killing and brutality sprees of their own.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 05, 2020, 10:44:00 AM
Jacobin has two (incomplete) compendia of police violence during these protests. I recommend reading them, but you should be warned that it's really, really disturbing.

Compendium 1 (https://jacobinmag.com/2020/6/george-floyd-protests-police-brutality)
Compendium 2 (https://jacobinmag.com/2020/06/police-riot-brutality-george-floyd-protests)


Meanwhile, in Canada, it looks like the cops have drawn some inspiration from their American counterparts and decided to go on killing and brutality sprees of their own.

"Killing sprees"? To what are you referring?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 05, 2020, 11:46:37 AM

"Killing sprees"? To what are you referring?

The killing of Chantel Moore (shot during a wellness check) and the highly questionable death of Regis Korchinski-Paquet (who was alone with police in her apartment and fell 24 stories). (If we go back to April, Winnipeg police shot and killed three Indigenous men in a period of 10 days, and another man in the doorway to his house.)

Sure, fine, it's not a "spree". But it's a lot in just a few days, especially when it's obvious that any such incidents will be high-profile, and it's been coupled with a fair bit of police brutality, also in the last few days (e.g. the Laval man pulled out of his car by his dreadlocks and beaten, the Nunavut hit with a moving police truck's door, the Kelowna man punched at least ten times while two other officers restrained him, etc.).

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 05, 2020, 12:16:11 PM

"Killing sprees"? To what are you referring?

The killing of Chantel Moore (shot during a wellness check) and the highly questionable death of Regis Korchinski-Paquet (who was alone with police in her apartment and fell 24 stories). (If we go back to April, Winnipeg police shot and killed three Indigenous men in a period of 10 days, and another man in the doorway to his house.)

Sure, fine, it's not a "spree". But it's a lot in just a few days, especially when it's obvious that any such incidents will be high-profile, and it's been coupled with a fair bit of police brutality, also in the last few days (e.g. the Laval man pulled out of his car by his dreadlocks and beaten, the Nunavut hit with a moving police truck's door, the Kelowna man punched at least ten times while two other officers restrained him, etc.).

Obviously Trump is not the only one who can make gross exaggerations and conflations.......

"Few days" = two month period, and the locations mentioned span the second largest country by landmass on the planet.

In the case of Regis Korchinski-Paquet, her family called 911 because she was in a domestic dispute with her brother (which the police diffused). I will be fascinated to see what that investigation concludes, since her family's lawyer is upset that details are getting leaked to the press because it seems the tragedy was a result of her mental illness, she barricaded herself on a balcony and died trying to jump to another balcony.

Do problems exist? Of course. But inflammatory hyperbole on either side doesn't help, since it fires up the public to not even listen to the evidence about what actually happens. Everyone just sits in their own echo chamber.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 05, 2020, 01:03:38 PM

"Killing sprees"? To what are you referring?

The killing of Chantel Moore (shot during a wellness check) and the highly questionable death of Regis Korchinski-Paquet (who was alone with police in her apartment and fell 24 stories). (If we go back to April, Winnipeg police shot and killed three Indigenous men in a period of 10 days, and another man in the doorway to his house.)

Sure, fine, it's not a "spree". But it's a lot in just a few days, especially when it's obvious that any such incidents will be high-profile, and it's been coupled with a fair bit of police brutality, also in the last few days (e.g. the Laval man pulled out of his car by his dreadlocks and beaten, the Nunavut hit with a moving police truck's door, the Kelowna man punched at least ten times while two other officers restrained him, etc.).

Obviously Trump is not the only one who can make gross exaggerations and conflations.......

"Few days" = two month period, and the locations mentioned span the second largest country by landmass on the planet.

In the case of Regis Korchinski-Paquet, her family called 911 because she was in a domestic dispute with her brother (which the police diffused). I will be fascinated to see what that investigation concludes, since her family's lawyer is upset that details are getting leaked to the press because it seems the tragedy was a result of her mental illness, she barricaded herself on a balcony and died trying to jump to another balcony.

Do problems exist? Of course. But inflammatory hyperbole on either side doesn't help, since it fires up the public to not even listen to the evidence about what actually happens. Everyone just sits in their own echo chamber.

What happens when we no longer trust the police or their ability to police themselves.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 05, 2020, 01:22:29 PM

"Few days" = two month period, and the locations mentioned span the second largest country by landmass on the planet.


I wasn't including the April incidents. The two deaths and the non-lethal incidents of police brutality have been since May 27, and most have been in the last week. All are unacceptable.

In any case, the more important lists are these, so I'll repost them so they aren't lost:

Quote
Jacobin has two (incomplete) compendia of police violence during these protests. I recommend reading them, but you should be warned that it's really, really disturbing.

Compendium 1 (https://jacobinmag.com/2020/6/george-floyd-protests-police-brutality)
Compendium 2 (https://jacobinmag.com/2020/06/police-riot-brutality-george-floyd-protests)
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: apl68 on June 05, 2020, 01:50:54 PM

"Killing sprees"? To what are you referring?

The killing of Chantel Moore (shot during a wellness check) and the highly questionable death of Regis Korchinski-Paquet (who was alone with police in her apartment and fell 24 stories). (If we go back to April, Winnipeg police shot and killed three Indigenous men in a period of 10 days, and another man in the doorway to his house.)

Sure, fine, it's not a "spree". But it's a lot in just a few days, especially when it's obvious that any such incidents will be high-profile, and it's been coupled with a fair bit of police brutality, also in the last few days (e.g. the Laval man pulled out of his car by his dreadlocks and beaten, the Nunavut hit with a moving police truck's door, the Kelowna man punched at least ten times while two other officers restrained him, etc.).

Obviously Trump is not the only one who can make gross exaggerations and conflations.......

"Few days" = two month period, and the locations mentioned span the second largest country by landmass on the planet.

In the case of Regis Korchinski-Paquet, her family called 911 because she was in a domestic dispute with her brother (which the police diffused). I will be fascinated to see what that investigation concludes, since her family's lawyer is upset that details are getting leaked to the press because it seems the tragedy was a result of her mental illness, she barricaded herself on a balcony and died trying to jump to another balcony.

Do problems exist? Of course. But inflammatory hyperbole on either side doesn't help, since it fires up the public to not even listen to the evidence about what actually happens. Everyone just sits in their own echo chamber.

What happens when we no longer trust the police or their ability to police themselves.

The sort of "inflammatory hyperbole" that marshwiggle is talking about here still seems most unhelpful at a time of elevated passions.  Are you saying that inflammatory hyperbole is justified here because "THEY STARTED IT!!!!"?

Although it hasn't been the norm, there has been some hyperbole and drawing with an overly broad brush in places on this thread.  Police officers in general have been characterized in posts above as violent brutes, as sadists, and as overpaid morons.  That looks like "Othering" to me, and Othering of that sort has never seemed fair or conducive to understanding.  It ignores certain parts of the narrative of the past week.  Like the officers and police chiefs in several cities who have treated protestors respectfully and shown solidarity with them.  Or the community-wide solidarity events, involving police and other civic officials and a variety of citizens, held recently in some towns, including ours just last night. 

Chris Rock, quoted above, was right in saying that police abuses in some departments can't be shrugged off as just a few bad apples.  If we've got bad apples in the police barrel, then we need get serious about cleaning out the barrel.  Characterizing all the apples in the barrel as bad by association is not helpful, though.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on June 05, 2020, 02:09:45 PM
And the image of Obama hosting a black professor and a white policeman for a beer at the White House keeps coming back to me as another effort to show a better path.

   https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jul/24/obama-race-row-beer

had one article on this;

   https://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/07/30/harvard.arrest.beers/

had another.

I realize there was more, later fallout but the effort to bring about conversation instead of confrontation is the main point here.

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 05, 2020, 02:57:21 PM
I've posted a couple links to police walking and kneeling with protesters, and talked about my own good experiences with police.

But it is hard to see, for instance, a 75-yo man pushed to the sidewalk, badly injured, and police spokespeople claiming "he tripped," (https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-see-it-buffalo-police-violently-knock-man-down-say-he-tripped-20200605-c5llu4zb3bbgdf3wxlmnrljt3a-story.html) and then learning that the entire 'voluntary' force unit quitting in "disgust" (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/buffalo-officers-shoving-75-year-old-ground-decried-governor-where-n1225776) at the treatment of their fellow officers.

I have great respect and gratitude toward our police.  We see a police culture and a mentality, however, of police using force apparently with impunity (see the "light'em up" video?) and protectionism that needs to be addressed.  The cell phone has made this apparent. 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 05, 2020, 03:28:46 PM
I've posted a couple links to police walking and kneeling with protesters, and talked about my own good experiences with police.

But it is hard to see, for instance, a 75-yo man pushed to the sidewalk, badly injured, and police spokespeople claiming "he tripped," (https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-see-it-buffalo-police-violently-knock-man-down-say-he-tripped-20200605-c5llu4zb3bbgdf3wxlmnrljt3a-story.html) and then learning that the entire 'voluntary' force unit quitting in "disgust" (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/buffalo-officers-shoving-75-year-old-ground-decried-governor-where-n1225776) at the treatment of their fellow officers.

I have great respect and gratitude toward our police.  We see a police culture and a mentality, however, of police using force apparently with impunity (see the "light'em up" video?) and protectionism that needs to be addressed.  The cell phone has made this apparent.

I'm absolutely in favour of bodycams and dashcams. Those should be standard equipment.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 05, 2020, 04:04:37 PM
I've posted a couple links to police walking and kneeling with protesters, and talked about my own good experiences with police.


There have, however, been a number of instances of police who kneeled with protesters turning around and attacking or gassing them shortly after. That I'm aware of, this has happened in Detroit, NYC, Orlando, and Portland, and yesterday I saw reports of the same from friends somewhere in Texas (but the where escapes me now).


Although it hasn't been the norm, there has been some hyperbole and drawing with an overly broad brush in places on this thread.  Police officers in general have been characterized in posts above as violent brutes, as sadists, and as overpaid morons.  That looks like "Othering" to me, and Othering of that sort has never seemed fair or conducive to understanding.  It ignores certain parts of the narrative of the past week.  Like the officers and police chiefs in several cities who have treated protestors respectfully and shown solidarity with them.  Or the community-wide solidarity events, involving police and other civic officials and a variety of citizens, held recently in some towns, including ours just last night. 

Chris Rock, quoted above, was right in saying that police abuses in some departments can't be shrugged off as just a few bad apples.  If we've got bad apples in the police barrel, then we need get serious about cleaning out the barrel.  Characterizing all the apples in the barrel as bad by association is not helpful, though.

There's an awful lot of bad apples out there right now, doing some really disturbing things. Check out the two links I provided upthread. They only scratch the surface. The police brutality going on now is widespread, and it's being very broadly enabled, including by superior officers who turn a blind eye not just to what they're seeing, but to acts like covering up identification numbers (which, incidentally, indicates pre-meditation). When you have that many bad apples, you're better off starting over from scratch.


I'm absolutely in favour of bodycams and dashcams. Those should be standard equipment.

Sure. But they don't solve the problem, and, frankly, they can't. (It also doesn't help when the cameras are deliberately or inadvertently switched off, despite their being turned on being legally mandatory.)
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: kiana on June 05, 2020, 04:10:02 PM
I've posted a couple links to police walking and kneeling with protesters, and talked about my own good experiences with police.


There have, however, been a number of instances of police who kneeled with protesters turning around and attacking or gassing them shortly after. That I'm aware of, this has happened in Detroit, NYC, Orlando, and Portland, and yesterday I saw reports of the same from friends somewhere in Texas (but the where escapes me now).


Buffalo as well; they knelt Wednesday, then 50+ resigned from the special force today (still employed apparently) ... over the discipline for the ones who knocked down the old guy.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 05, 2020, 04:40:50 PM


I'm absolutely in favour of bodycams and dashcams. Those should be standard equipment.

Sure. But they don't solve the problem, and, frankly, they can't. (It also doesn't help when the cameras are deliberately or inadvertently switched off, despite their being turned on being legally mandatory.)

They don't solve the problem, but when they are used, they provide solid evidence that goes beyond verbal testimony of witnesses. Video is powerful, as is obvious from recent cases including George Floyd.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Economizer on June 05, 2020, 06:07:23 PM
The realty is that an incalculable number of circumstances are faced by public safety personnel and their organizations, top to bottom. Currently the best efforts to acceptably answer to every circumstance are directed at good recruiting, good training and refresher training, good and prompt communication by superior officers and among the ranks. Then, into the life of officers comes the need of police action for which calls to apply all that can be gained by preparations, all at once, and more.

Who is the top dog to in making or directing immediate action. Area commander, watch commander, Chief, Public Safety Chief (that could be the Police or the Fire Chief), Politicians, Citizen Review Boards? No, it is the officer or officers responding. What happens then, through proper incidents accounts, be they true or untrue, augmented by citizen, electronic, and media perspectives, matters may then enter the province of corrective and judicial actions involving officers, victims, perpetrators, etc.

Having stated the above, which is my view point, I believe all of the burning, looting, disrespect for public safety actions and personnel, will damage just and fair proper process of social, political, and legal remedy. Who wants that? I'd really like to know!


Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 05, 2020, 07:44:21 PM
I believe all of the burning, looting, disrespect for public safety actions and personnel, will damage just and fair proper process of social, political, and legal remedy. Who wants that? I'd really like to know!

Nobody but the criminals.

We also don't want cops behaving like criminals.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Economizer on June 05, 2020, 08:08:32 PM
Definitely. Maybe there are criminals that wish police to be thought to be criminals though. Those could be labeled insurrrctionists and several other terms of rebellion. I might be getting a bit out of the limits of my vocabulary with that remark.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 06, 2020, 01:59:06 AM
I believe all of the burning, looting, disrespect for public safety actions and personnel, will damage just and fair proper process of social, political, and legal remedy. Who wants that? I'd really like to know!

Nobody but the criminals.

We also don't want cops behaving like criminals.

In some case the police and/or governors and mayors choose to let some amount of  looting go on. I believe it is a tactical decision. Sacrifice something here in order to avoid the perception that they are being heavy handed by sending everyone who want to demonstrate home, over there.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: financeguy on June 06, 2020, 02:42:40 AM
Indemnifying the cops against financial liability is a huge issue rarely discussed. The L.A. City council, for example, is not legally obliged to but as a matter of routine does pay the judgements against LAPD officers. This became an issue in the 90s when a now disbanded unit in the department was sued for one of many incidents leading to death. The attorney for a decedent in a fast food robbery after hours leading to a shoot out attempted to get the parties including officers involved and the chief of police (Gates at the time) to pay personally but the city council was going to indemnify anyway, even though jurors were told any amounts would be paid directly, leading to a lower figure. The attorney then named the members of the council in a suit, indicating that by indemnifying as a matter of course 100% of the time they were contributing to the deaths and other misbehavior. Removing legal shields like this would solve a lot of the problems. Why behave if the worst case scenario is a paid suspension or switching departments in the off chance you're fired?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: spork on June 06, 2020, 03:28:13 AM
Definitely. Maybe there are criminals that wish police to be thought to be criminals though. Those could be labeled insurrrctionists and several other terms of rebellion. I might be getting a bit out of the limits of my vocabulary with that remark.

Given your fora moniker, I assume you are familiar with the work on statistical discrimination by economists like Kenneth Arrow and Gary Becker? If not, I can recommend the Stanford policing study: https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/ (https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/).

Every well-designed study I have seen shows that in the USA blacks are stopped, searched, arrested, mistreated, and killed by police at far higher rates per capita than whites, in violation of federal and state law. To me that is criminal.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 06, 2020, 04:42:28 AM
Definitely. Maybe there are criminals that wish police to be thought to be criminals though. Those could be labeled insurrrctionists and several other terms of rebellion. I might be getting a bit out of the limits of my vocabulary with that remark.

Given your fora moniker, I assume you are familiar with the work on statistical discrimination by economists like Kenneth Arrow and Gary Becker? If not, I can recommend the Stanford policing study: https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/ (https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/).

Every well-designed study I have seen shows that in the USA blacks are stopped, searched, arrested, mistreated, and killed by police at far higher rates per capita than whites, in violation of federal and state law. To me that is criminal.

Any idea why this is the case?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 07, 2020, 03:55:15 AM
Definitely. Maybe there are criminals that wish police to be thought to be criminals though. Those could be labeled insurrrctionists and several other terms of rebellion. I might be getting a bit out of the limits of my vocabulary with that remark.

Given your fora moniker, I assume you are familiar with the work on statistical discrimination by economists like Kenneth Arrow and Gary Becker? If not, I can recommend the Stanford policing study: https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/ (https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/).

Every well-designed study I have seen shows that in the USA blacks are stopped, searched, arrested, mistreated, and killed by police at far higher rates per capita than whites, in violation of federal and state law. To me that is criminal.

Any idea why this is the case?

You seem to be telling us that when a policeman or woman sees a black person they are more likely to suspect that person has, will or is committing a crime that they would with a white person.
Let's take *what the police are thinking* out of the conversation for a minute. Let's suppose there's one omniscient video recorder that sees whenever anyone, any where commits a crime. What does it see? Is some group committing more crimes more often than another group, taking into account its size?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: writingprof on June 07, 2020, 04:52:14 PM
A veto-proof majority of the Minneapolis City Council has apparently announced plans to disband the police department.  Can this be real?  Will residents sue the city for refusing to provide basic services?  I mean, as a conservative, I love it when progressives implode, but this is obvious insanity. 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 07, 2020, 05:26:55 PM
A veto-proof majority of the Minneapolis City Council has apparently announced plans to disband the police department.  Can this be real?  Will residents sue the city for refusing to provide basic services?  I mean, as a conservative, I love it when progressives implode, but this is obvious insanity.

Sounds like a perfect storm. The police are not trustworthy, but there's hysteria in response to that. The mayor is poorly informed. He said 'if George Floyd had been white, he'd be alive and in excellent health now.' Which is not true at all. The guy was a mess. Advanced heart disease, fentanyl, amphetamine, morphine and THC in his system, and a smoker. Either committing suicide gradually or seriously out of control.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: eigen on June 07, 2020, 05:58:35 PM
A veto-proof majority of the Minneapolis City Council has apparently announced plans to disband the police department.  Can this be real?  Will residents sue the city for refusing to provide basic services?  I mean, as a conservative, I love it when progressives implode, but this is obvious insanity.

I'm not aware of anything that requires a city to maintain a police force, other than the will of the voters.

Could you point me to something that indicates otherwise?

It seems like the city residents could certainly look to recall the elected officials and/or vote in replacements if the disagree with the majority vote. But I think for them to "sue" the city for "refusing to provide basic services" would require some sort of stated position on what basic services are.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 07, 2020, 06:43:32 PM
A veto-proof majority of the Minneapolis City Council has apparently announced plans to disband the police department.  Can this be real?  Will residents sue the city for refusing to provide basic services?  I mean, as a conservative, I love it when progressives implode, but this is obvious insanity.

A great many of our problems would go away if we stopped being "conservatives" and "progressives."

We might be able to talk about the "insanity" of our politicians---particularly our president---without choosing teams first.

Morality and politics are not football games.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: hmaria1609 on June 07, 2020, 06:45:30 PM
From WTOP Radio online:
Quote
Disbanding an entire department has happened before. In 2012, with crime rampant in Camden, New Jersey, the city disbanded its police department and replaced it with a new force that covered Camden County. Compton, California, took the same step in 2000, shifting its policing to Los Angeles County.

Full article:
https://wtop.com/national/2020/06/minneapolis-council-majority-backs-disbanding-police-force/ (https://wtop.com/national/2020/06/minneapolis-council-majority-backs-disbanding-police-force/)
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 07, 2020, 06:52:49 PM
From WTOP Radio online:
Quote
Disbanding an entire department has happened before. In 2012, with crime rampant in Camden, New Jersey, the city disbanded its police department and replaced it with a new force that covered Camden County. Compton, California, took the same step in 2000, shifting its policing to Los Angeles County.

Full article:
https://wtop.com/national/2020/06/minneapolis-council-majority-backs-disbanding-police-force/ (https://wtop.com/national/2020/06/minneapolis-council-majority-backs-disbanding-police-force/)

This is not unprecedented.

Quote
Disbanding an entire department has happened before. In 2012, with crime rampant in Camden, New Jersey, the city disbanded its police department and replaced it with a new force that covered Camden County. Compton, California, took the same step in 2000, shifting its policing to Los Angeles County.

Seems like democracy in action to me.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 07, 2020, 08:07:36 PM
A veto-proof majority of the Minneapolis City Council has apparently announced plans to disband the police department.  Can this be real?  Will residents sue the city for refusing to provide basic services?  I mean, as a conservative, I love it when progressives implode, but this is obvious insanity.

A great many of our problems would go away if we stopped being "conservatives" and "progressives."

We might be able to talk about the "insanity" of our politicians---particularly our president---without choosing teams first.

Morality and politics are not football games.

OTOH any society in which people are worried about when tattoo parlors will be open again maybe deserves to be a spectator sport.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 07, 2020, 08:53:01 PM
A veto-proof majority of the Minneapolis City Council has apparently announced plans to disband the police department.  Can this be real?  Will residents sue the city for refusing to provide basic services?  I mean, as a conservative, I love it when progressives implode, but this is obvious insanity.

A great many of our problems would go away if we stopped being "conservatives" and "progressives."

We might be able to talk about the "insanity" of our politicians---particularly our president---without choosing teams first.

Morality and politics are not football games.

OTOH any society in which people are worried about when tattoo parlors will be open again maybe deserves to be a spectator sport.

And who, my friend, is that exactly?

I've been watching a lot of news.

That doesn't seem to be the major concern of most of the protesters. 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Treehugger on June 08, 2020, 04:38:30 AM
Definitely. Maybe there are criminals that wish police to be thought to be criminals though. Those could be labeled insurrrctionists and several other terms of rebellion. I might be getting a bit out of the limits of my vocabulary with that remark.

Given your fora moniker, I assume you are familiar with the work on statistical discrimination by economists like Kenneth Arrow and Gary Becker? If not, I can recommend the Stanford policing study: https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/ (https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/).

Every well-designed study I have seen shows that in the USA blacks are stopped, searched, arrested, mistreated, and killed by police at far higher rates per capita than whites, in violation of federal and state law. To me that is criminal.

Any idea why this is the case?

You seem to be telling us that when a policeman or woman sees a black person they are more likely to suspect that person has, will or is committing a crime that they would with a white person.
Let's take *what the police are thinking* out of the conversation for a minute. Let's suppose there's one omniscient video recorder that sees whenever anyone, any where commits a crime. What does it see? Is some group committing more crimes more often than another group, taking into account its size?

Ok, I’ll take the bait. That’s because blacks are much more likely to be violent criminals than whites. Fact. There are all kinds of statistics that show this, but they are almost never brought up in the context of higher arrest rates for blacks.

Just a little while ago I read a Huff Post piece that attempted to refute this. Sadly, the best they could do was  say that although both black and whites have similar levels of gun ownership, blacks are more likely to be arrested for gun violence. Incredibly, the author was using this a “proof” of racism.

Here is an interesting article that seriously digs into statistics about police brutality and race:https://quillette.com/2019/07/27/dont-blame-police-racism-for-americas-violence-epidemic/  (https://quillette.com/2019/07/27/dont-blame-police-racism-for-americas-violence-epidemic/)

Here is just one of the many interesting statistics (which come from government sources): the homicide rate for black teens was 16 times higher than for white teens (in 2017, at least).

Also take a look at:  https://www.amazon.com/Taboo-Facts-Cant-Talk-About/dp/162157928X/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2SGJ4K7R7533S&dchild=1&keywords=taboo+10+facts+you+can%27t+talkabout&qid=1591614433&sprefix=10+taboo%2Caps%2C169&sr=8-2 (https://www.amazon.com/Taboo-Facts-Cant-Talk-About/dp/162157928X/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2SGJ4K7R7533S&dchild=1&keywords=taboo+10+facts+you+can%27t+talkabout&qid=1591614433&sprefix=10+taboo%2Caps%2C169&sr=8-2)

Two more things I would like to add:

First, when I was in high school, I was the victim of a violent black-on-white sexual assault by several armed men (who also yelled racial slurs at me for an hour while I was naked). It is an event I can never forget. However, I will say that it didn’t take me too long to realize that “the personal is political” only when you have had the right personal experience. When you have had the “wrong” personal experience, you are expected to just shut up about it, or you are told, “Well, n=1” or “that’s just an anecdote, not data,” or worst of all, “well, you are probably more biased than most now.”

My take? A lot of white academicians are living in a bubble where they hear what they want to hear about race and violence.

Second, I realize that there is a #shutdownSTEM, #shutdownacademia movement afloat. If I understand correctly, the idea is to take one day (just one day!!) June 10th to become anti-racists, to actively work to bring racial equality to the workplace. Hello? I know that my husband who is the department chair in a STEM field has always supported and actively worked to make his department more inclusive and diverse. When they hire a woman or POC, he is genuinely thrilled. When women or POC have any complaint about discrimination, he is on it. Seriously. And, seriously, it is not just him. It is by far the majority of the professors in the department who feel the same way (and I hear about the very few who don’t). Also, they don’t just react, they are doing their absolute best to be proactive and think about how to get more women and POC interested in the field.

So, as you might imagine, my husband doesn’t have any problem with taking June 10th to continue the work they are already doing and, who knows, maybe learn something new.

So far so good. However, when I read the material on the #shutdownSTEM website (which was sent to my husband, who shared it with me), I saw that not only were they calling for anti-racist action on June 10th, but they were calling academia in general and STEM in particular “white supremacist.” I’m sorry? What? What are your grounds for calling institutions and departments who are already doing their best to be inclusive “white supremacist?” From what I have read, I suspect that it is in part because the number of specifically black professors does not match the percentage of blacks in the general population. However, they are many possible reasons for this and I actually think that a supposed “culture of white supremacy” is one of the least plausible ones.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: apl68 on June 08, 2020, 07:21:52 AM
From WTOP Radio online:
Quote
Disbanding an entire department has happened before. In 2012, with crime rampant in Camden, New Jersey, the city disbanded its police department and replaced it with a new force that covered Camden County. Compton, California, took the same step in 2000, shifting its policing to Los Angeles County.

Full article:
https://wtop.com/national/2020/06/minneapolis-council-majority-backs-disbanding-police-force/ (https://wtop.com/national/2020/06/minneapolis-council-majority-backs-disbanding-police-force/)

Well, that means there are precedents that Minneapolis can study that will hopefully help them if they decide to go through with this.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 08, 2020, 07:55:28 AM

So far so good. However, when I read the material on the #shutdownSTEM website (which was sent to my husband, who shared it with me), I saw that not only were they calling for anti-racist action on June 10th, but they were calling academia in general and STEM in particular “white supremacist.” I’m sorry? What? What are your grounds for calling institutions and departments who are already doing their best to be inclusive “white supremacist?” From what I have read, I suspect that it is in part because the number of specifically black professors does not match the percentage of blacks in the general population. However, they are many possible reasons for this and I actually think that a supposed “culture of white supremacy” is one of the least plausible ones.

(First of all, sorry to hear about your horrible experience in high school.)

Some of my thoughts to illustrate the points above:

My experience is also that the vast amount of male faculty in STEM want to encourage young women and non-white students. Smart, keen students don't grow on trees so any that you find are valued. In the labs I do for an electronics course only about 20% of students are women. Some of them really enjoy the labs, and I tell all of the students about my follow-up course which they might enjoy.  There are usually less than 20% of women in the follow-up course. I realized that it's not a question of whether they think my course would be interesting; it's whether they think my course would be the most interesting option for them.

(When students apply to programs, they indicate 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choices. Statistics over the years have established that when offers of admission are made to students, of the people who rated the program their 1st choice they accept at a very high rate, like 80% or something. When they rated it their 2nd choice, the acceptance rate is much lower, like 30% or so, and if they rated it their 3rd choice, it's only around 5%. So even if something is their 2nd favourite choice the uptake will be much lower than if it's their first.)


To sum up: when people make choice based on their preferences, small differences can make notable differences in outcomes, without having to invoke any nefarious motives.

And this is without getting into differences between different ethnic groups in career expectations for their children, which vastly affects student choices.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 08, 2020, 07:57:31 AM
More than one thing can be true at a time.

It is possible that AA communities, after centuries of systematic institutionalized violence, wealth disparity, and oppression, are now more crime-ridden than white communities.

And it is possible that police react disproportionately to black perpetrators---sometimes because of lingering racism. 

It is not illogical to think that these two things go together.  In fact, it would be surprising if they didn't.

All power to you, Treehugger.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Treehugger on June 08, 2020, 08:02:18 AM

So far so good. However, when I read the material on the #shutdownSTEM website (which was sent to my husband, who shared it with me), I saw that not only were they calling for anti-racist action on June 10th, but they were calling academia in general and STEM in particular “white supremacist.” I’m sorry? What? What are your grounds for calling institutions and departments who are already doing their best to be inclusive “white supremacist?” From what I have read, I suspect that it is in part because the number of specifically black professors does not match the percentage of blacks in the general population. However, they are many possible reasons for this and I actually think that a supposed “culture of white supremacy” is one of the least plausible ones.

(First of all, sorry to hear about your horrible experience in high school.)

Some of my thoughts to illustrate the points above:

My experience is also that the vast amount of male faculty in STEM want to encourage young women and non-white students. Smart, keen students don't grow on trees so any that you find are valued. In the labs I do for an electronics course only about 20% of students are women. Some of them really enjoy the labs, and I tell all of the students about my follow-up course which they might enjoy.  There are usually less than 20% of women in the follow-up course. I realized that it's not a question of whether they think my course would be interesting; it's whether they think my course would be the most interesting option for them.

(When students apply to programs, they indicate 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choices. Statistics over the years have established that when offers of admission are made to students, of the people who rated the program their 1st choice they accept at a very high rate, like 80% or something. When they rated it their 2nd choice, the acceptance rate is much lower, like 30% or so, and if they rated it their 3rd choice, it's only around 5%. So even if something is their 2nd favourite choice the uptake will be much lower than if it's their first.)


To sum up: when people make choice based on their preferences, small differences can make notable differences in outcomes, without having to invoke any nefarious motives.

And this is without getting into differences between different ethnic groups in career expectations for their children, which vastly affects student choices.



This has been exactly my experience. I originally got my BS in Computer Science and went on to become a software engineer because I really needed the $$. As soon as I did not need the $$ anymore (I got married to a high-earning man), I changed career paths to something I liked more, something in the humanities. So, yes, I was good at CS and enjoyed the work. But I am better in the humanities and enjoy it even more.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 08, 2020, 08:28:49 AM
It is possible that AA communities, after centuries of systematic institutionalized violence, wealth disparity, and oppression, are now more crime-ridden than white communities.

They could also be more crime ridden because people like George Floyd are present in them. After serving five years for being the ringleader in a home invasion (a pregnant black woman's home), he was again a free man, and continued buying illegal drugs, hanging out in public stoned out of his mind, and probably passing counterfeit bills, and who knows what else. But what you read about him is stuff like this: 'the changed man.' 'Joined the ministry.' "Determined to change.' 'The Gentle Giant.'

https://www.the-sun.com/news/931741/did-george-floyd-have-criminal-past/

I don't know any gentlemen who are capable of running an armed home invasion.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 08, 2020, 09:42:15 AM
More than one thing can be true at a time.

It is possible that AA communities, after centuries of systematic institutionalized violence, wealth disparity, and oppression, are now more crime-ridden than white communities.

And it is possible that police react disproportionately to black perpetrators---sometimes because of lingering racism. 

It is not illogical to think that these two things go together.  In fact, it would be surprising if they didn't.


Yes.

Intersectionality is a real phenomenon. What we find, time and again, is that crime is clearly tied to poverty, childhood lead exposure, lack of legal recourse to solve your problems (e.g. because the police are largely absent or don't care to act--or because they routinely and actively act against your community), one-sided interventions and record-keeping, etc. And unfortunately, historical, environmental, and economic factors all come together in a negative way when we're talking about Black communities, and these problems are self-reinforcing (and inter-reinforcing).

Just consider the environmental side of things. In the 1990s, for families earning less that $6000, 68% of African American children had lead poisoning, compared to 36% of white children; for incomes over $15 000, it was 38% compared to 12%. We know childhood lead poisoning leads to more violent adults. And, as we saw in the city of Flint, it's not that some mustachio-twirling man actively decided to poison Black families; rather, all it took was an ill-advised economic decision to switch their water supply in a city whose finances were not capable of addressing the ensuing problem (or, indeed, of removing existing lead pipes, as wealthier cities have done). Well, that, and a total abrogation of their duty of care for their citizens (since the corrosion could have been foreseen with adequate study). Combine those environmental and economic factors with a police department that doesn't have the resources to adequately police the city, so that citizens cannot rely on police assistance, and you've got the makings of a bad situation that isn't going to get better. Those can will move out, leaving behind those who are unable to finance a move. That further reduces the city's tax base, reducing their ability to address these issues. And the low property values will mean an influx of people who have been pushed out of other areas and can only afford to live there, thus compounding the area's already dire needs.

But we know all this. It's not new. And it doesn't indicate that some group of people are inherently more violent than others.

This is especially true when you're talking about things like arrest rates for particular offenses, especially when we know that the police are more likely to let the offenses slide where some kinds of people are concerned. Just look at their tolerance of armed white militias during these current protests, as opposed to the violent crackdown on peaceful Black protestors just feet away. Or consider how hard it is for sex workers to be treated as normal citizens when they report crimes--or, indeed, consider how blasé the police are about the murders of people in "at risk" categories, like sex workers, drug users, or LGBTQ+ people (and let's not forget how those categories often overlap, or why), or indeed anyone who isn't a "respectable" citizen.

Or, if you want a personal anecdote: in my last year of university, I was attacked by five white teens (late teens) armed with beer bottles, who screamed racial slurs and told me to go back home during the assault. (I'm white, but I often pass for another race among ignoramuses.) This was in a small university town with good town-gown relations. The cops took hours to show up, and when they did they shrugged their shoulders and chalked it up to boys being boys. So even though it was a violent hate crime, it never entered into anyone's statistics. I'd be surprised if they even bothered to file a report.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 08, 2020, 09:56:56 AM
Just consider the environmental side of things. In the 1990s, for families earning less that $6000, 68% of African American children had lead poisoning, compared to 36% of white children; for incomes over $15 000, it was 38% compared to 12%. We know childhood lead poisoning leads to more violent adults. And, as we saw in the city of Flint, it's not that some mustachio-twirling man actively decided to poison Black families; rather, all it took was an ill-advised economic decision to switch their water supply in a city whose finances were not capable of addressing the ensuing problem (or, indeed, of removing existing lead pipes, as wealthier cities have done). Well, that, and a total abrogation of their duty of care for their citizens (since the corrosion could have been foreseen with adequate study). Combine those environmental and economic factors with a police department that doesn't have the resources to adequately police the city, so that citizens cannot rely on police assistance, and you've got the makings of a bad situation that isn't going to get better. Those can will move out, leaving behind those who are unable to finance a move. That further reduces the city's tax base, reducing their ability to address these issues. And the low property values will mean an influx of people who have been pushed out of other areas and can only afford to live there, thus compounding the area's already dire needs.

But we know all this. It's not new. And it doesn't indicate that some group of people are inherently more violent than others.


This still raises the question of how (or even whether) it makes more sense to treat these as issues of racial discrimination rather than socioeconomic inequality. It's like the issue of hate crimes; shouldn't people be appalled that some completely innocent person got beaten up, regardless of the victim's ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.?  The intent of tying it to discrimination of some sort is understandable, but it has the side effect of suggesting the crime itself is somehow "not so bad" under other circumstances.
 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Treehugger on June 08, 2020, 10:14:47 AM
Just consider the environmental side of things. In the 1990s, for families earning less that $6000, 68% of African American children had lead poisoning, compared to 36% of white children; for incomes over $15 000, it was 38% compared to 12%. We know childhood lead poisoning leads to more violent adults. And, as we saw in the city of Flint, it's not that some mustachio-twirling man actively decided to poison Black families; rather, all it took was an ill-advised economic decision to switch their water supply in a city whose finances were not capable of addressing the ensuing problem (or, indeed, of removing existing lead pipes, as wealthier cities have done). Well, that, and a total abrogation of their duty of care for their citizens (since the corrosion could have been foreseen with adequate study). Combine those environmental and economic factors with a police department that doesn't have the resources to adequately police the city, so that citizens cannot rely on police assistance, and you've got the makings of a bad situation that isn't going to get better. Those can will move out, leaving behind those who are unable to finance a move. That further reduces the city's tax base, reducing their ability to address these issues. And the low property values will mean an influx of people who have been pushed out of other areas and can only afford to live there, thus compounding the area's already dire needs.

But we know all this. It's not new. And it doesn't indicate that some group of people are inherently more violent than others.


This still raises the question of how (or even whether) it makes more sense to treat these as issues of racial discrimination rather than socioeconomic inequality. It's like the issue of hate crimes; shouldn't people be appalled that some completely innocent person got beaten up, regardless of the victim's ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.?  The intent of tying it to discrimination of some sort is understandable, but it has the side effect of suggesting the crime itself is somehow "not so bad" under other circumstances.

Exactly! This is why I support broad-based social economic reforms for all troubled communities regardless of the race and ethnicity involved. I realize that there are all kinds of sophisticated theoretical and historical justifications for prioritizing black communities, but the fact is that blatantly favoring one race over others, no matter how great you think the justification is, is not going to bring racial harmony to this country. No matter how you spin it, there are going to be whites who take offense (whether or not you personally think this offense is justified). If we truly focus on floating all the boats, the radical right will have much less traction and black communities will be helped (or allowed to self-empower).
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 08, 2020, 11:41:46 AM
It is possible that AA communities, after centuries of systematic institutionalized violence, wealth disparity, and oppression, are now more crime-ridden than white communities.

They could also be more crime ridden because people like George Floyd are present in them. After serving five years for being the ringleader in a home invasion (a pregnant black woman's home), he was again a free man, and continued buying illegal drugs, hanging out in public stoned out of his mind, and probably passing counterfeit bills, and who knows what else. But what you read about him is stuff like this: 'the changed man.' 'Joined the ministry.' "Determined to change.' 'The Gentle Giant.'

https://www.the-sun.com/news/931741/did-george-floyd-have-criminal-past/

I don't know any gentlemen who are capable of running an armed home invasion.

None of that gives the police the right to murder him.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 08, 2020, 11:51:44 AM
I think it's important to notice and remember how these issues intersect with race, and create perfect storms whose impacts disproportionately fall on people of colour. Not doing so is a recipe for the same old externalization of costs that we see happening over and over again.



This still raises the question of how (or even whether) it makes more sense to treat these as issues of racial discrimination rather than socioeconomic inequality. It's like the issue of hate crimes; shouldn't people be appalled that some completely innocent person got beaten up, regardless of the victim's ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.?  The intent of tying it to discrimination of some sort is understandable, but it has the side effect of suggesting the crime itself is somehow "not so bad" under other circumstances.


Exactly! This is why I support broad-based social economic reforms for all troubled communities regardless of the race and ethnicity involved. I realize that there are all kinds of sophisticated theoretical and historical justifications for prioritizing black communities, but the fact is that blatantly favoring one race over others, no matter how great you think the justification is, is not going to bring racial harmony to this country. No matter how you spin it, there are going to be whites who take offense (whether or not you personally think this offense is justified). If we truly focus on floating all the boats, the radical right will have much less traction and black communities will be helped (or allowed to self-empower).

Taking race out of the equation and tackling the underlying problem makes sense in some cases, but not in others. It makes sense, for example, where healthcare is concerned: universal healthcare would be a net boon for everyone, but especially for people of colour, whose economic conditions seriously limit their access to quality care. You could institute any number of race-based or means-tested versions of healthcare, but the overall outcomes will just be worse. And it will be more expensive and less effective. Everyone would just be better off with some kind of universal healthcare. (You might still need to enact particular race-oriented reforms, however; Black women, for example, are routinely assaulted, or have their pain minimized, or their concerns dismissed, by physicians. This recently happened twice in a row to a Black friend of mine visiting two different gynecologists, one male and the other female. The way she was treated was unconscionable, and I would characterize it as assault. But it's utterly commonplace, and it derives in part from being explicitly trained, in medical school, to believe that Black people have higher pain thresholds than white people.)

It doesn't make as much sense for something like pipeline construction and other undesirable land uses, where race is a clear and direct player and where the costs are routinely externalized onto people of colour. Adequate reform on that front would require, e.g., taking Indigenous land claims seriously and actively seeking consent from Indigenous peoples to exploit resources on their lands. Taking race out of that means ignoring historical and contemporary treaty obligations, and a long history of violations of those obligations.

It also doesn't make sense where a lot of criminal justice reform is concerned, since what we're talking about are issues where race is in the driver's seat. Forgetting about race in a conversation about stop and frisk in NYC, for example, is a recipe for misunderstanding (or worse, ignoring) the harms that policy perpetuates.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 08, 2020, 12:00:26 PM
It is possible that AA communities, after centuries of systematic institutionalized violence, wealth disparity, and oppression, are now more crime-ridden than white communities.

They could also be more crime ridden because people like George Floyd are present in them. After serving five years for being the ringleader in a home invasion (a pregnant black woman's home), he was again a free man, and continued buying illegal drugs, hanging out in public stoned out of his mind, and probably passing counterfeit bills, and who knows what else. But what you read about him is stuff like this: 'the changed man.' 'Joined the ministry.' "Determined to change.' 'The Gentle Giant.'

https://www.the-sun.com/news/931741/did-george-floyd-have-criminal-past/

I don't know any gentlemen who are capable of running an armed home invasion.

I've also got to say, my friend, since there has been a fair amount of personal anecdote of late on this thread, that you are positing to a recovering alcoholic and drug addict.

I never did anything that would have put me in prison, and this was well before crack, meth, of fentanyl, but things were going very badly for me.  I seriously doubt I would have turned to a life of crime; nevertheless, I was a rip-roaring disaster in every way possible. 

After one particularly horrific night I went to my parents and told them I was in trouble, and the first thing they did, God bless them, was to find the best in-house treatment center they could find and sent me there.  I had a very bad year and a half after that---and not just the cravings, which were terrible, but I also had no idea what to do with my self, how to interact with sober people, and had to deal with the personal rubble I'd left in my wake. 

And throughout it I had a huge support network of friends, family, and even college faculty behind me.  I never went hungry or had to fight off a drug-dealer, a drunken family member, or explain to a gang-banger why I was going straight. 

When I needed and wanted help, wealth, security, and a place to hide out when I was feeling weak, it was all there.  I am the perfect example of white privilege in action.  In fact, I could be the poster-boy for white privilege.

The funny or ironic thing about recovery is that people really admire and support you----which is fair; people only recover from this dreadful illness under their own steam---yet I always tell people that I was one of the very lucky ones who, when he needed it, had help.

And now, my sibling, who is as lilly white as I am, and has had all the benefits and actually a good deal more help through life than I have, is living in a park in a tent.  Hu has not done any home invasions that I am aware of, but lots of laws have been broken----I can look up my sibling's mugshot on Google.  I've had to intervene personally in a couple of circumstances to keep my aged parents safe from this person.  So understand that the kind of judgment you are meting out has its limits and a limited rational, particularly under the circumstances this thread is talking about.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on June 08, 2020, 12:06:59 PM
Quote
Per Mahagonny: After serving five years for being the ringleader in a home invasion (a pregnant black woman's home), he was again a free man, and continued buying illegal drugs, hanging out in public stoned out of his mind, and probably passing counterfeit bills, and who knows what else. But what you read about him is stuff like this: 'the changed man.' 'Joined the ministry.' "Determined to change.' 'The Gentle Giant.'

+1 to WR. Strength to you.

@Mahagonny: Are you, then, suggesting that an individual policeman is empowered to be investigating detective, prosecuting attorney, jury, judge, and executioner because of any one or all of these things (if he even knew of them--and if any or all are true?)

Due process? Right to an attorney? Right to self-defense?   

And, as it now appears, two of the three other officers were so new to the job that they were either so shocked, stunned, or unaware of what they could do to stop it that even some of the more usually operant checks on extremely out-of-hand policing were not in place. And since he'd had something like 18 past accusations of undue force either ignored or only slightly reprimanded, his own internal systems of limitation had never been re-calibrated, either.

I'm not saying that excuses them, it doesn't. Humanity itself should have come into play somewhere in those eight-plus minutes.

But the simple elegance of a jury would have been nice.

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 08, 2020, 12:11:35 PM
It is possible that AA communities, after centuries of systematic institutionalized violence, wealth disparity, and oppression, are now more crime-ridden than white communities.

They could also be more crime ridden because people like George Floyd are present in them. After serving five years for being the ringleader in a home invasion (a pregnant black woman's home), he was again a free man, and continued buying illegal drugs, hanging out in public stoned out of his mind, and probably passing counterfeit bills, and who knows what else. But what you read about him is stuff like this: 'the changed man.' 'Joined the ministry.' "Determined to change.' 'The Gentle Giant.'

https://www.the-sun.com/news/931741/did-george-floyd-have-criminal-past/

I don't know any gentlemen who are capable of running an armed home invasion.

None of that gives the police the right to murder him.

Of course not, Wahoo. We already have a consensus on that. It does appear that the public could have been deprived of his contribution to society by keeping him in prison without suffering too much. I expect his children to stick up for him, but when the media starts saying he was turning over a new leaf, I would say it doesn't look that way.
Although I live in an urban area, I did not demonstrate. I could have. I'm not that much of a wimp, but my wife would have objected, because I am higher risk for COVID-19. If I had demonstrated, I would have been tempted to carry a sign that says "DAVE'S LIFE MATTERED."

upthread I posted

A friend of mine's son was shot to death by an off duty police officer. They claimed he had held up the off duty (or was it plain-clothed)  cop and his wife at knife point and was shot because the policeman feared for their lives. The family asked, how did he he get a knife on the plane with him (he was on a two day vacation.) I don't know what happened, but I don't see why he had to be shot to death. White guy. There were no marches. Investigation cleared the cop.


@Mahagonny: Are you, then, suggesting that an individual policeman is empowered to be investigating detective, prosecuting attorney, jury, judge, and executioner because of any one or all of these things (if he even knew of them--and if any or all are true?)

Of course not.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 08, 2020, 12:16:16 PM
Taking race out of the equation and tackling the underlying problem makes sense in some cases, but not in others. It makes sense, for example, where healthcare is concerned: universal healthcare would be a net boon for everyone, but especially for people of colour, whose economic conditions seriously limit their access to quality care. You could institute any number of race-based or means-tested versions of healthcare, but the overall outcomes will just be worse. And it will be more expensive and less effective. Everyone would just be better off with some kind of universal healthcare. (You might still need to enact particular race-oriented reforms, however; Black women, for example, are routinely assaulted, or have their pain minimized, or their concerns dismissed, by physicians. This recently happened twice in a row to a Black friend of mine visiting two different gynecologists, one male and the other female. The way she was treated was unconscionable, and I would characterize it as assault. But it's utterly commonplace, and it derives in part from being explicitly trained, in medical school, to believe that Black people have higher pain thresholds than white people.)


But this creates a very fine line; if you require medical professionals to be especially sensitive to pain of black women (for instance), then they are open to the criticism of over-medicating black women.

The same thing goes for police response to crime. If you discourage police from intervening heavily in poor black neighbourhoods, you become open to the charge of abandoning black neighbourhoods to gangs.

When you use "systemic" all over the place, it creates a predisposition to ascribe bad motives to every action and its opposite. There is no possibility of doing anything to refute it.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 08, 2020, 12:19:38 PM
It is possible that AA communities, after centuries of systematic institutionalized violence, wealth disparity, and oppression, are now more crime-ridden than white communities.

They could also be more crime ridden because people like George Floyd are present in them. After serving five years for being the ringleader in a home invasion (a pregnant black woman's home), he was again a free man, and continued buying illegal drugs, hanging out in public stoned out of his mind, and probably passing counterfeit bills, and who knows what else. But what you read about him is stuff like this: 'the changed man.' 'Joined the ministry.' "Determined to change.' 'The Gentle Giant.'

https://www.the-sun.com/news/931741/did-george-floyd-have-criminal-past/

I don't know any gentlemen who are capable of running an armed home invasion.

None of that gives the police the right to murder him.

Exactly.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: delsur on June 08, 2020, 12:36:45 PM
Second, I realize that there is a #shutdownSTEM, #shutdownacademia movement afloat. If I understand correctly, the idea is to take one day (just one day!!) June 10th to become anti-racists, to actively work to bring racial equality to the workplace. Hello? I know that my husband who is the department chair in a STEM field has always supported and actively worked to make his department more inclusive and diverse. When they hire a woman or POC, he is genuinely thrilled. When women or POC have any complaint about discrimination, he is on it. Seriously. And, seriously, it is not just him. It is by far the majority of the professors in the department who feel the same way (and I hear about the very few who don’t). Also, they don’t just react, they are doing their absolute best to be proactive and think about how to get more women and POC interested in the field.

So, as you might imagine, my husband doesn’t have any problem with taking June 10th to continue the work they are already doing and, who knows, maybe learn something new.

So far so good. However, when I read the material on the #shutdownSTEM website (which was sent to my husband, who shared it with me), I saw that not only were they calling for anti-racist action on June 10th, but they were calling academia in general and STEM in particular “white supremacist.” I’m sorry? What? What are your grounds for calling institutions and departments who are already doing their best to be inclusive “white supremacist?” From what I have read, I suspect that it is in part because the number of specifically black professors does not match the percentage of blacks in the general population. However, they are many possible reasons for this and I actually think that a supposed “culture of white supremacy” is one of the least plausible ones.

I don't think this is against your husband who seems to be doing the right thing or any other individual person. For a long time, the term "white supremacy" was used to talk about Jim Crow-style racism, Nazism, white nationalism, etc. Recently, however, this term has been revived as a broader theoretical concept to examine the long-standing global system of power that privileges whiteness. I have to say I too was confused when I first saw the term white supremacy being used this way. However, having done some reading, my understanding is that it aims to talk about this system, and how we and our institutions may be implicated in maintaining this system of white privilege, and not so much about individuals being good or bad.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 08, 2020, 12:40:27 PM

But this creates a very fine line; if you require medical professionals to be especially sensitive to pain of black women (for instance), then they are open to the criticism of over-medicating black women.

Not really. I just require them not to dismiss reports of pain, to give appropriate doses and not cut them in half because of some magic tolerance conferred by skin colour, to give adequate and full information about procedures before they're performed, and not to perform procedures for which consent was not given or for which consent was explicitly denied.

Plus, it would be nice if a single visit to the gynecologist didn't feature violations of all of the above.

Quote
The same thing goes for police response to crime. If you discourage police from intervening heavily in poor black neighbourhoods, you become open to the charge of abandoning black neighbourhoods to gangs.

Nobody is discouraging police from policing Black neighbourhoods. What's being discouraged are the "heavy" responses whose euphemism covers for unwarranted aggression, one-sided enforcement of misdemeanours, seeking out particular neighbourhoods to meet quotas, non-random random checks, etc. We're also calling for actual accountability.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Treehugger on June 08, 2020, 12:54:20 PM
I think it's important to notice and remember how these issues intersect with race, and create perfect storms whose impacts disproportionately fall on people of colour. Not doing so is a recipe for the same old externalization of costs that we see happening over and over again.



This still raises the question of how (or even whether) it makes more sense to treat these as issues of racial discrimination rather than socioeconomic inequality. It's like the issue of hate crimes; shouldn't people be appalled that some completely innocent person got beaten up, regardless of the victim's ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.?  The intent of tying it to discrimination of some sort is understandable, but it has the side effect of suggesting the crime itself is somehow "not so bad" under other circumstances.


Exactly! This is why I support broad-based social economic reforms for all troubled communities regardless of the race and ethnicity involved. I realize that there are all kinds of sophisticated theoretical and historical justifications for prioritizing black communities, but the fact is that blatantly favoring one race over others, no matter how great you think the justification is, is not going to bring racial harmony to this country. No matter how you spin it, there are going to be whites who take offense (whether or not you personally think this offense is justified). If we truly focus on floating all the boats, the radical right will have much less traction and black communities will be helped (or allowed to self-empower).

Taking race out of the equation and tackling the underlying problem makes sense in some cases, but not in others. It makes sense, for example, where healthcare is concerned: universal healthcare would be a net boon for everyone, but especially for people of colour, whose economic conditions seriously limit their access to quality care. You could institute any number of race-based or means-tested versions of healthcare, but the overall outcomes will just be worse. And it will be more expensive and less effective. Everyone would just be better off with some kind of universal healthcare. (You might still need to enact particular race-oriented reforms, however; Black women, for example, are routinely assaulted, or have their pain minimized, or their concerns dismissed, by physicians. This recently happened twice in a row to a Black friend of mine visiting two different gynecologists, one male and the other female. The way she was treated was unconscionable, and I would characterize it as assault. But it's utterly commonplace, and it derives in part from being explicitly trained, in medical school, to believe that Black people have higher pain thresholds than white people.)

It doesn't make as much sense for something like pipeline construction and other undesirable land uses, where race is a clear and direct player and where the costs are routinely externalized onto people of colour. Adequate reform on that front would require, e.g., taking Indigenous land claims seriously and actively seeking consent from Indigenous peoples to exploit resources on their lands. Taking race out of that means ignoring historical and contemporary treaty obligations, and a long history of violations of those obligations.

It also doesn't make sense where a lot of criminal justice reform is concerned, since what we're talking about are issues where race is in the driver's seat. Forgetting about race in a conversation about stop and frisk in NYC, for example, is a recipe for misunderstanding (or worse, ignoring) the harms that policy perpetuates.

I don’t want to deflect here (or at least not too much), but are you sure that her experience was due to racism? I have had quite negative experiences with gynecologists who were openly bullying, and would have left me in tears if I had been the sort to cry in public (the last time I cried in public due to hurt feelings or physical pain was in elementary school) and I certainly didn’t attribute this to racism, just to the gynecologists being total jerks.

But anyway ... thanks for the analyses.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 08, 2020, 01:17:51 PM

But this creates a very fine line; if you require medical professionals to be especially sensitive to pain of black women (for instance), then they are open to the criticism of over-medicating black women.

Not really. I just require them not to dismiss reports of pain, to give appropriate doses and not cut them in half because of some magic tolerance conferred by skin colour, to give adequate and full information about procedures before they're performed, and not to perform procedures for which consent was not given or for which consent was explicitly denied.

Plus, it would be nice if a single visit to the gynecologist didn't feature violations of all of the above.

Unless you have ample evidence that white patients don't have a lot of the same complaints, and that other black women do, then you can't tell what the issue is.


Quote
Quote
The same thing goes for police response to crime. If you discourage police from intervening heavily in poor black neighbourhoods, you become open to the charge of abandoning black neighbourhoods to gangs.

Nobody is discouraging police from policing Black neighbourhoods. What's being discouraged are the "heavy" responses whose euphemism covers for unwarranted aggression, one-sided enforcement of misdemeanours, seeking out particular neighbourhoods to meet quotas, non-random random checks, etc. We're also calling for actual accountability.

But "heavy" responses are going to be needed when dealing with gangs and in other violent (or potentially violent) situations.*
As for the other things, as I've said, I'm heavily in favour of dashcams and bodycams so that as much actual objective data is available. If "accountability" just means "assume cops are guilty" it's no better than if it means "assume black people are guilty".

*Important fact; cops don't go into those neighbourhoods for giggles; they go because we (i.e. society) ask them to becuase we are too scared to do it ourselves.  If it gets to the point where no-one can be found who will work under all of the restrictions imposed, then we'll have achieved the "Escape from New York"-esque dystopia.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Treehugger on June 08, 2020, 03:10:46 PM
Second, I realize that there is a #shutdownSTEM, #shutdownacademia movement afloat. If I understand correctly, the idea is to take one day (just one day!!) June 10th to become anti-racists, to actively work to bring racial equality to the workplace. Hello? I know that my husband who is the department chair in a STEM field has always supported and actively worked to make his department more inclusive and diverse. When they hire a woman or POC, he is genuinely thrilled. When women or POC have any complaint about discrimination, he is on it. Seriously. And, seriously, it is not just him. It is by far the majority of the professors in the department who feel the same way (and I hear about the very few who don’t). Also, they don’t just react, they are doing their absolute best to be proactive and think about how to get more women and POC interested in the field.

So, as you might imagine, my husband doesn’t have any problem with taking June 10th to continue the work they are already doing and, who knows, maybe learn something new.

So far so good. However, when I read the material on the #shutdownSTEM website (which was sent to my husband, who shared it with me), I saw that not only were they calling for anti-racist action on June 10th, but they were calling academia in general and STEM in particular “white supremacist.” I’m sorry? What? What are your grounds for calling institutions and departments who are already doing their best to be inclusive “white supremacist?” From what I have read, I suspect that it is in part because the number of specifically black professors does not match the percentage of blacks in the general population. However, they are many possible reasons for this and I actually think that a supposed “culture of white supremacy” is one of the least plausible ones.

I don't think this is against your husband who seems to be doing the right thing or any other individual person. For a long time, the term "white supremacy" was used to talk about Jim Crow-style racism, Nazism, white nationalism, etc. Recently, however, this term has been revived as a broader theoretical concept to examine the long-standing global system of power that privileges whiteness. I have to say I too was confused when I first saw the term white supremacy being used this way. However, having done some reading, my understanding is that it aims to talk about this system, and how we and our institutions may be implicated in maintaining this system of white privilege, and not so much about individuals being good or bad.

Yes, I totally understand what is supposedly meant by the term “white supremacy” now. However, I honestly believe this is really quite disingenuous. The very people who worked to expand the meaning of “white supremacy” are people (many of whom are in academia) who are extremely aware of language and how it works. These are the same people who are constantly policing themselves and others for language that could possibly give the slightest offense to minorities. Then they turn around and sort of accidentally on purpose use a term that is meant (but not really meant, but maybe meant?) to offend people who are repeatedly told that being white is the most import thing about them (whether they feel that way or not) and that whiteness is the root of all evil. But when challenged, they say: “Oh we’re just talking about a system, not individuals.”

I have seen the usage and abuse of such terms described as a motte and bailey strategy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy). By using the term  “white supremacy” they can get white folks feeling good and guilty, even downright fearful of their reputation (Who wants to have the term “white supremacy” associated with their name?), however, when challenged, they just say: “But that’s not what we really mean. We’re just talking about the system...” Just like those friends-not-friends who insist they were “just joking” if you take offense at their offensive remarks.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: delsur on June 08, 2020, 03:29:10 PM
I have seen the usage and abuse of such terms described as a motte and bailey strategy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy). By using the term  “white supremacy” they can get white folks feeling good and guilty, even downright fearful of their reputation (Who wants to have the term “white supremacy” associated with their name?), however, when challenged, they just say: “But that’s not what we really mean. We’re just talking about the system...” Just like those friends-not-friends who insist they were “just joking” if you take offense at their offensive remarks.

Yes, I have no doubt you have encountered people who misuse the term or commit fallacies in their arguments. Putting those aside, if you are ever interested, there are many others who have studied, experienced, and written about these issues quite thoughtfully. Reading the works of Charles W. Mills, Cedric Robinson, bell hooks, Franz Fanon, Eduardo Bonilla-Silva and many others might show you that there are discussions about racism and white supremacy that are not as simplistic or fallacy-ridden, but rather important considerations toward a more equitable society. (I wrote this in another thread as well where there is a similar discussion going on).
 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 08, 2020, 08:04:53 PM
It is possible that AA communities, after centuries of systematic institutionalized violence, wealth disparity, and oppression, are now more crime-ridden than white communities.

They could also be more crime ridden because people like George Floyd are present in them. After serving five years for being the ringleader in a home invasion (a pregnant black woman's home), he was again a free man, and continued buying illegal drugs, hanging out in public stoned out of his mind, and probably passing counterfeit bills, and who knows what else. But what you read about him is stuff like this: 'the changed man.' 'Joined the ministry.' "Determined to change.' 'The Gentle Giant.'

https://www.the-sun.com/news/931741/did-george-floyd-have-criminal-past/

I don't know any gentlemen who are capable of running an armed home invasion.

I've also got to say, my friend, since there has been a fair amount of personal anecdote of late on this thread, that you are positing to a recovering alcoholic and drug addict.

I never did anything that would have put me in prison, and this was well before crack, meth, of fentanyl, but things were going very badly for me.  I seriously doubt I would have turned to a life of crime; nevertheless, I was a rip-roaring disaster in every way possible. 

After one particularly horrific night I went to my parents and told them I was in trouble, and the first thing they did, God bless them, was to find the best in-house treatment center they could find and sent me there.  I had a very bad year and a half after that---and not just the cravings, which were terrible, but I also had no idea what to do with my self, how to interact with sober people, and had to deal with the personal rubble I'd left in my wake. 

And throughout it I had a huge support network of friends, family, and even college faculty behind me.  I never went hungry or had to fight off a drug-dealer, a drunken family member, or explain to a gang-banger why I was going straight. 

When I needed and wanted help, wealth, security, and a place to hide out when I was feeling weak, it was all there.  I am the perfect example of white privilege in action.  In fact, I could be the poster-boy for white privilege.

The funny or ironic thing about recovery is that people really admire and support you----which is fair; people only recover from this dreadful illness under their own steam---yet I always tell people that I was one of the very lucky ones who, when he needed it, had help.

And now, my sibling, who is as lilly white as I am, and has had all the benefits and actually a good deal more help through life than I have, is living in a park in a tent.  Hu has not done any home invasions that I am aware of, but lots of laws have been broken----I can look up my sibling's mugshot on Google.  I've had to intervene personally in a couple of circumstances to keep my aged parents safe from this person.  So understand that the kind of judgment you are meting out has its limits and a limited rational, particularly under the circumstances this thread is talking about.

Glad you got your life and health together. Indeed, some of us, any at any time, may hit the skids, but may then recover, and it means everything to have that support.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on June 08, 2020, 09:23:09 PM
In the UK, there are related issues:

   https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/08/boris-johnson-colston-statue

   https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/europe/edward-colston-statue-bristol/index.html

Of note: the Clapham Sect started in the UK, as well....

   https://www.britannica.com/topic/Clapham-Sect

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on June 08, 2020, 11:09:59 PM
Sorry for the double post but this defies understanding...

  There is video of the Minneapolis police slashing the tires of every car in a parking lot.

Not only protesters, but news crews, medical personnel and others were affected.

   https://publish.twitter.com/?query=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FKarlSteel%2Fstatus%2F1270060556695855104&widget=Tweet

I thought it was Flint, MI that had the weird stuff in the water...

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Treehugger on June 09, 2020, 03:23:16 AM
Sorry for the double post but this defies understanding...

  There is video of the Minneapolis police slashing the tires of every car in a parking lot.

Not only protesters, but news crews, medical personnel and others were affected.

   https://publish.twitter.com/?query=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FKarlSteel%2Fstatus%2F1270060556695855104&widget=Tweet

I thought it was Flint, MI that had the weird stuff in the water...

M.

Wow, that’s really really weird. A backstory, maybe? Or just police run amok.

By the way, one issue that rarely seems to come up in these conversations is that, as part of the job application process, police wannabes are given an IQ test. If they score too high, they are turned down. Maybe this could be changed and intelligent people could allowed on the force?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 09, 2020, 04:21:30 AM
By the way, one issue that rarely seems to come up in these conversations is that, as part of the job application process, police wannabes are given an IQ test. If they score too high, they are turned down. Maybe this could be changed and intelligent people could allowed on the force?

Someone else on here said this. Is this actually documented, or is it an urban myth? I'm skeptical.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Treehugger on June 09, 2020, 05:07:16 AM
By the way, one issue that rarely seems to come up in these conversations is that, as part of the job application process, police wannabes are given an IQ test. If they score too high, they are turned down. Maybe this could be changed and intelligent people could allowed on the force?

Someone else on here said this. Is this actually documented, or is it an urban myth? I'm skeptical.

Courts OK barring high IQ cops (https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836)

This is old news, but I’m pretty sure it is still a practice.

By the way, this happens in other fields too, if more informally. I was taken aside and talked out of getting a degree in education because I was “too smart.”
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 09, 2020, 05:26:55 AM
By the way, one issue that rarely seems to come up in these conversations is that, as part of the job application process, police wannabes are given an IQ test. If they score too high, they are turned down. Maybe this could be changed and intelligent people could allowed on the force?

Someone else on here said this. Is this actually documented, or is it an urban myth? I'm skeptical.

Courts OK barring high IQ cops (https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836)

This is old news, but I’m pretty sure it is still a practice.

By the way, this happens in other fields too, if more informally. I was taken aside and talked out of getting a degree in education because I was “too smart.”

That's amazing*. Kind of like decades ago when companies didn't want to hire young women becuase they'd just find a husband, get married and quit.

It's strange to hear an organization officially endorse the drudgery of their jobs, but I suppose it deserves some points for honesty.


*Ironic note from the story that the guy went to work as a prison guard. It seems that would be even less mentally demanding than police work. I guess prisons aren't worried about that.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 09, 2020, 05:31:29 AM
By the way, one issue that rarely seems to come up in these conversations is that, as part of the job application process, police wannabes are given an IQ test. If they score too high, they are turned down. Maybe this could be changed and intelligent people could allowed on the force?

Someone else on here said this. Is this actually documented, or is it an urban myth? I'm skeptical.

Courts OK barring high IQ cops (https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836)

This is old news, but I’m pretty sure it is still a practice.

By the way, this happens in other fields too, if more informally. I was taken aside and talked out of getting a degree in education because I was “too smart.”

That's amazing*. Kind of like decades ago when companies didn't want to hire young women becuase they'd just find a husband, get married and quit.

It's strange to hear an organization officially endorse the drudgery of their jobs, but I suppose it deserves some points for honesty.


*Ironic note from the story that the guy went to work as a prison guard. It seems that would be even less mentally demanding than police work. I guess prisons aren't worried about that.

I notice they are smart enough to get some pretty impressive privileges through their unions.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 09, 2020, 07:18:16 AM
Sorry for the double post but this defies understanding...

  There is video of the Minneapolis police slashing the tires of every car in a parking lot.

Not only protesters, but news crews, medical personnel and others were affected.

   https://publish.twitter.com/?query=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FKarlSteel%2Fstatus%2F1270060556695855104&widget=Tweet

I thought it was Flint, MI that had the weird stuff in the water...

M.

At what point do these begin to realize that almost all of us have cellphone cameras and the Internet???

Even Bigfoot hunters acknowledge that we all carry handheld cameras these days.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 09, 2020, 07:18:57 AM
Sorry for the double post but this defies understanding...

  There is video of the Minneapolis police slashing the tires of every car in a parking lot.

Not only protesters, but news crews, medical personnel and others were affected.

   https://publish.twitter.com/?query=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FKarlSteel%2Fstatus%2F1270060556695855104&widget=Tweet

I thought it was Flint, MI that had the weird stuff in the water...

M.

At what point do these people begin to realize that almost all of us have cellphone cameras and the Internet???

Even Bigfoot hunters acknowledge that we all carry handheld cameras these days.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: financeguy on June 10, 2020, 03:28:52 AM
Someone may be in the country illegally and another person may not identify with their biological gender. There's also a word that sounds like the n word with "ly" at the end used since Shakespeare that means wasteful.

I don't call those in the country illegally "illegals" or "illegal aliens." I also don't insist on calling people their biological gender if they prefer otherwise. I also refrain from using the word referenced above. There's a reason I do all of these things even though making the statements may be objectively "true." I do this not only because I know they will be misinterpreted by either the subject of the statement and/or others. This makes all of those examples pretty ineffective from a clarity of language standpoint. The only reason I would say any of those three things is if my intent were to inflame. I have to assume this is the desired result of anyone who uses the terms "institutional racism" or "white privilege."

I'm not a big fan of cancel culture but if it's going to happen, I'd like to see whites refusing to hire or patronize people who use those and similar terms, even if they have an obscure footnote to explain their "intended" meaning. I simply don't wish to justify my exclusion from that group or feel as if someone is extorting my cooperation rather than actually trying to present a quality argument to entice me to their point of view. Say what you want, but know that there is a price to pay for continuing to use this language. I have silently made a point of not buying from people who are publicly doing this.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 10, 2020, 05:09:35 AM
Someone may be in the country illegally and another person may not identify with their biological gender. There's also a word that sounds like the n word with "ly" at the end used since Shakespeare that means wasteful.

I seem to recall a few years back someone on TV getting in trouble for precisely this.


Quote
I don't call those in the country illegally "illegals" or "illegal aliens." I also don't insist on calling people their biological gender if they prefer otherwise. I also refrain from using the word referenced above. There's a reason I do all of these things even though making the statements may be objectively "true." I do this not only because I know they will be misinterpreted by either the subject of the statement and/or others. This makes all of those examples pretty ineffective from a clarity of language standpoint. The only reason I would say any of those three things is if my intent were to inflame. I have to assume this is the desired result of anyone who uses the terms "institutional racism" or "white privilege."

And if Trump gets re-elected, it will be because the progressives don't get this. They define anyone who disagrees with them as a "white supremacist". In other words, as identitarians of the left, anyone who isn't part of their camp they define as an identitarian of the right. They fail to grasp that a large part of society (i.e. voters), are not identitarians at all.



Quote
I'm not a big fan of cancel culture but if it's going to happen, I'd like to see whites refusing to hire or patronize people who use those and similar terms, even if they have an obscure footnote to explain their "intended" meaning. I simply don't wish to justify my exclusion from that group or feel as if someone is extorting my cooperation rather than actually trying to present a quality argument to entice me to their point of view. Say what you want, but know that there is a price to pay for continuing to use this language. I have silently made a point of not buying from people who are publicly doing this.

I think this is probably pretty common. As I said above, the large *segment of the population who are not identitarians simply avoid dealing with identitarians as much as possible, but they don't draw attentian to it becuase they're not interested in the pointless battle.

(* The segment of the population who, as MLK would say, choose to judge people on the content of their character rather than the colour of their skin (or gender, sexual orientation, etc.))

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: archaeo42 on June 10, 2020, 06:19:15 AM
Someone may be in the country illegally and another person may not identify with their biological gender. There's also a word that sounds like the n word with "ly" at the end used since Shakespeare that means wasteful.

I don't call those in the country illegally "illegals" or "illegal aliens." I also don't insist on calling people their biological gender if they prefer otherwise. I also refrain from using the word referenced above. There's a reason I do all of these things even though making the statements may be objectively "true." I do this not only because I know they will be misinterpreted by either the subject of the statement and/or others. This makes all of those examples pretty ineffective from a clarity of language standpoint. The only reason I would say any of those three things is if my intent were to inflame. I have to assume this is the desired result of anyone who uses the terms "institutional racism" or "white privilege."


Something tells me this will make zero difference but here goes:

The history of the United States is built on the subjugation of people of color, from slavery to Native American genocide. If it weren't we wouldn't have needed the 13th, 14th, or 15th Constitutional amendments. Or the Civil Rights Act. Or the Voting Rights Act. Or the The American Indian Religious Freedom Act. Jim Crow laws wouldn't have existed. The GI Bill implemented post-WWII wouldn't have been affected by things like redlining and unequal access to educational benefits because of racial segregation. Things like the destruction of Black Wall Street wouldn't be in our history: https://www.theroot.com/the-other-black-wall-streets-1823010812 (https://www.theroot.com/the-other-black-wall-streets-1823010812)

Peggy McIntosh's White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack  https://www.racialequitytools.org/resourcefiles/mcintosh.pdf (https://www.racialequitytools.org/resourcefiles/mcintosh.pdf) is also an informative essay to understand white privilege and how it works.

And the PBS program Race - The Power of an Illusion has some informative resources for reading as well: https://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background.htm (https://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background.htm)
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: financeguy on June 10, 2020, 11:07:16 AM
marshwiggle, there have been so many people who have gotten in trouble for the use of that word specifically that is has its own wikipedia page entitled "controversies about the word..." This should cause anyone to see that word as not particularly "useful" in getting a point across, especially since there are many other synonyms that do not have the downside of a similarity to the most offensive word in the language with a near 100% guarantee that at least someone will only hear this part.

archaeo42, this is exactly what I'm referring to. If you need three footnotes to explain what you've said, you've failed to get your point across in exactly the same way as someone who uses the word I'm referencing above, responding to the near guaranteed backlash with a discussion of the origins of that word preceding the slur that is audibly similar but unrelated. It is no secret that whites do not like these terms, are not hearing whatever point you are trying to make, and are retaliating at least to the extent of aligning with political ideologies that many would not prefer specifically for this reason. At a certain point you have to ask if the get out of jail free card of implying (or even outright stating) that a while person is racist as a rhetorical tool is worth the guaranteed backlash. Of course your goal may not be to pursued myself or anyone else, which is confirmed by your implication that this "won't work." You're absolutely right. It won't. Those who continue to use these phrases have a powerful tool if they wish to inflame but if you actually want to win over opinions of whites on matters related to race, they aren't very useful.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on June 10, 2020, 11:35:03 AM
Language, or the arts, or any form of communication (and including certain types of action as speech acts), have both expressive and persuasive functions or dimensions--among others, it seems to me. (I'm no rhetoricist, but I think there's a nub of something here that an actual rhetoricist might be able to do more with.)

Someone in frustration may say something without thinking; someone trying to persuade others may think so much about pleasing or appeasing their audience that they say almost nothing. (I'd also be interested in a deeper rhetorical analysis of this idea if there's any useful substance to it).

Moving outward from that into the ethical questions of consideration and respect for other created beings, and the more broadly spiritual or moral issues of compassion, filtering or re-wording may need to happen so as not to breach serious, important limits set to prevent harm and do a measure of societal good in the world.

Civil society is made up of a mosaic of those concerns, and re-decides and re-calibrates them constantly.

We're in a process of doing that now.

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 10, 2020, 11:48:58 AM

Moving outward from that into the ethical questions of consideration and respect for other created beings, and the more broadly spiritual or moral issues of compassion, filtering or re-wording may need to happen so as not to breach serious, important limits set to prevent harm and do a measure of societal good in the world.


That sounds as though there are never cases where those are mutually exclusive. Cancer treatment (surgery, chemo, radiation) are all VERY harmful, and are only employed because the alternative is death. "Causing harm" is such an overused phrase today that the statement of any idea, or even *scientific fact, that someone doesn't like can be described as "harmful".

(*For example, all kinds of facts about biological sex will be described as "transphobic" if stated.)
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Descartes on June 10, 2020, 12:02:08 PM
This might be off topic in regards to the most recent conversations here, but I think it's on topic for the stated title of this thread.

The not-so funny thing about all of this is this:  We need to wait for facts to come out and let the truth fall where it may.

Michael Brown (Ferguson) and the "hands up, don't shoot" was objectively a lie; this was borne out by many investigations including a grand jury investigation.  Michael Brown was a thug who attacked a cop and tried to take his gun.  Yet people jumped to conclusions and rioted.

Trayvon Martin was very likely a thug who, as the saying goes, played stupid games and won stupid prizes.  Zimmerman wasn't a blameless, role model saint, and the things that came out about him after the trial seem to confirm that, but the shooting was likely justified as a matter of morality and was declared justified by a jury as a matter of law.  Yet people still jumped to conclusions and rioted.

Now we have this case.  People jumped to conclusions and rioted.  But the funny thing this time is that the more information we have coming out, it's beginning to look like the evidence is going to point to this in fact being a murder.  More keeps coming out each day about their prior relationship and I just heard something else today that, IF TRUE, and it may not be, but IF it is true, makes the likelihood of this being an outright murder much more solidified in my mind.  We're not done getting the facts, but when all is said and done, this one may be outright unjustified and a blatant murder.

As much as people scream that the system doesn't work, the fact is that it does - for the most part.  I say that because I've also seen career criminal dirt bags get found not guilty and walk free against overwhelming evidence against them.  Somehow people forget that in favor of the narrative that cops get off, everyone else gets the book thrown at them.

But the rioters and BLM folks may have finally done it; they may have finally gotten themselves a case where their poster boy is a true victim (although I hesitate to say that because it's really hard for me to muster any outrage over the killing of a guy who held a gun to a pregnant woman's stomach and threatened to pull the trigger, but I digress;  As far as this incident goes, the facts seem to be lining up that the cop may have outright murdered him on purpose with no justifiable reason as of that moment in time.)
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: att_mtt on June 10, 2020, 12:09:18 PM
This might be off topic in regards to the most recent conversations here, but I think it's on topic for the stated title of this thread.

The not-so funny thing about all of this is this:  We need to wait for facts to come out and let the truth fall where it may.

Michael Brown (Ferguson) and the "hands up, don't shoot" was objectively a lie; this was borne out by many investigations including a grand jury investigation.  Michael Brown was a thug who attacked a cop and tried to take his gun.  Yet people jumped to conclusions and rioted.

Trayvon Martin was very likely a thug who, as the saying goes, played stupid games and won stupid prizes.  Zimmerman wasn't a blameless, role model saint, and the things that came out about him after the trial seem to confirm that, but the shooting was likely justified as a matter of morality and was declared justified by a jury as a matter of law.  Yet people still jumped to conclusions and rioted.

Now we have this case.  People jumped to conclusions and rioted.  But the funny thing this time is that the more information we have coming out, it's beginning to look like the evidence is going to point to this in fact being a murder.  More keeps coming out each day about their prior relationship and I just heard something else today that, IF TRUE, and it may not be, but IF it is true, makes the likelihood of this being an outright murder much more solidified in my mind.  We're not done getting the facts, but when all is said and done, this one may be outright unjustified and a blatant murder.

As much as people scream that the system doesn't work, the fact is that it does - for the most part.  I say that because I've also seen career criminal dirt bags get found not guilty and walk free against overwhelming evidence against them.  Somehow people forget that in favor of the narrative that cops get off, everyone else gets the book thrown at them.

But the rioters and BLM folks may have finally done it; they may have finally gotten themselves a case where their poster boy is a true victim (although I hesitate to say that because it's really hard for me to muster any outrage over the killing of a guy who held a gun to a pregnant woman's stomach and threatened to pull the trigger, but I digress;  As far as this incident goes, the facts seem to be lining up that the cop may have outright murdered him on purpose with no justifiable reason as of that moment in time.)

It might be due to the fact that I didn't grow up in the US, but for me it's very hard to understand why human rights and dignity stop when someone has committed a crime. Does a person need to be a "poster boy" in order to have the right not to be murdered on the street?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 10, 2020, 12:15:28 PM
I don't call those in the country illegally "illegals" or "illegal aliens." I also don't insist on calling people their biological gender if they prefer otherwise. I also refrain from using the word referenced above. There's a reason I do all of these things even though making the statements may be objectively "true." I do this not only because I know they will be misinterpreted by either the subject of the statement and/or others. This makes all of those examples pretty ineffective from a clarity of language standpoint. The only reason I would say any of those three things is if my intent were to inflame. I have to assume this is the desired result of anyone who uses the terms "institutional racism" or "white privilege."

I simply don't wish to justify my exclusion from that group or feel as if someone is extorting my cooperation rather than actually trying to present a quality argument to entice me to their point of view. Say what you want, but know that there is a price to pay for continuing to use this language.

In graduate school I got on an elevator with one of my classmates, I'll call him Anthony.  I honestly can't remember why, but something made me mad (I think I was reading some sort of memo) and I blasphemed loudly by using one of the big curses.

Anthony's spine went straight and his face went stony.  And then I remembered that Anthony was a member of one of the fundamental Christian denominations.

I might have been sanctioned under some sort of institutional rule, but I probably could have argued something 1st Amendmenty or argued that there was nothing in the graduate handbook about obscenities or blasphemies or even personally attacked Anthony for being overly sensitive.  In any event, I doubt much would have happened had he complained.  I could have blasphemed again if I had wanted to.

But I didn't.  Instead I earnestly apologized because, hey, I had no reason to denigrate this nice man or his belief system, even if I am not a Christian.  Anthony and I were always okay.

It was only common courtesy that I thoughtlessly transgressed and made amends for.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 10, 2020, 12:20:06 PM

It might be due to the fact that I didn't grow up in the US, but for me it's very hard to understand why human rights and dignity stop when someone has committed a crime. Does a person need to be a "poster boy" in order to have the right not to be murdered on the street?

That's just the point: In many cases what gets presented as someone getting "murdered on the street" turns out to be a much more complicated situation as the facts emerge. But if there is some underlying problem, such as police overuse of force, it will be much easier to discuss when the more facts that emerge, the more it appears that the original impressions were correct.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 10, 2020, 01:05:30 PM
And if Trump gets re-elected, it will be because the progressives don't get this. They define anyone who disagrees with them as a "white supremacist". In other words, as identitarians of the left, anyone who isn't part of their camp they define as an identitarian of the right. They fail to grasp that a large part of society (i.e. voters), are not identitarians at all.

So we should not "define anyone" too broadly as an "identitarian" because that misses the individuality of thought and stops us thinking about others' opinions.

Kind of like you just did there.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: apl68 on June 10, 2020, 01:15:37 PM
This might be off topic in regards to the most recent conversations here, but I think it's on topic for the stated title of this thread.

The not-so funny thing about all of this is this:  We need to wait for facts to come out and let the truth fall where it may.

Michael Brown (Ferguson) and the "hands up, don't shoot" was objectively a lie; this was borne out by many investigations including a grand jury investigation.  Michael Brown was a thug who attacked a cop and tried to take his gun.  Yet people jumped to conclusions and rioted.

Trayvon Martin was very likely a thug who, as the saying goes, played stupid games and won stupid prizes.  Zimmerman wasn't a blameless, role model saint, and the things that came out about him after the trial seem to confirm that, but the shooting was likely justified as a matter of morality and was declared justified by a jury as a matter of law.  Yet people still jumped to conclusions and rioted.

Now we have this case.  People jumped to conclusions and rioted.  But the funny thing this time is that the more information we have coming out, it's beginning to look like the evidence is going to point to this in fact being a murder.  More keeps coming out each day about their prior relationship and I just heard something else today that, IF TRUE, and it may not be, but IF it is true, makes the likelihood of this being an outright murder much more solidified in my mind.  We're not done getting the facts, but when all is said and done, this one may be outright unjustified and a blatant murder.

As much as people scream that the system doesn't work, the fact is that it does - for the most part.  I say that because I've also seen career criminal dirt bags get found not guilty and walk free against overwhelming evidence against them.  Somehow people forget that in favor of the narrative that cops get off, everyone else gets the book thrown at them.

But the rioters and BLM folks may have finally done it; they may have finally gotten themselves a case where their poster boy is a true victim (although I hesitate to say that because it's really hard for me to muster any outrage over the killing of a guy who held a gun to a pregnant woman's stomach and threatened to pull the trigger, but I digress;  As far as this incident goes, the facts seem to be lining up that the cop may have outright murdered him on purpose with no justifiable reason as of that moment in time.)

It might be due to the fact that I didn't grow up in the US, but for me it's very hard to understand why human rights and dignity stop when someone has committed a crime. Does a person need to be a "poster boy" in order to have the right not to be murdered on the street?

I find it regrettable that a person with such a history of vile behavior is now being venerated as a martyr.  But yes, the larger point stands that the police shouldn't be murdering people.  Even people with very ugly histories.  George Floyd's history of vicious behavior does not in any way complicate the case against the officers who killed him.

That's part of why the Floyd case has created such an unprecedented nationwide series of protests.  It's NOT complicated the way some of the other cases have been.  This wasn't a man being shot as a result of a split-second decision in a fast-moving situation.  This is a man who was slowly choked to death even after he was clearly past the point of being able to offer any resistance.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: quasihumanist on June 10, 2020, 01:23:08 PM

It might be due to the fact that I didn't grow up in the US, but for me it's very hard to understand why human rights and dignity stop when someone has committed a crime. Does a person need to be a "poster boy" in order to have the right not to be murdered on the street?

That's just the point: In many cases what gets presented as someone getting "murdered on the street" turns out to be a much more complicated situation as the facts emerge. But if there is some underlying problem, such as police overuse of force, it will be much easier to discuss when the more facts that emerge, the more it appears that the original impressions were correct.

I think part of the problem is that there are implicit disagreements on appropriate use of force.

I don't care if someone is a thug - if they're not clearly(*) about to kill you or someone else right that moment, you don't have the right to kill them, whether you're a cop or not, and you should go to jail if you do.

(*) No reasonably fear standard or anything like that - I mean they actually have to have their finger on the trigger of a gun - and, no, something that you were worried might be a gun doesn't count.

My opinion is perhaps extreme, and some people might say that I don't believe in the right of self defense.  Okay, by your definition, I don't believe in the right of self defense, and while I wouldn't agree with such a definition, I can see that it's within the range of commonly accepted definitions.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 10, 2020, 01:27:43 PM
And if Trump gets re-elected, it will be because the progressives don't get this. They define anyone who disagrees with them as a "white supremacist". In other words, as identitarians of the left, anyone who isn't part of their camp they define as an identitarian of the right. They fail to grasp that a large part of society (i.e. voters), are not identitarians at all.

So we should not "define anyone" too broadly as an "identitarian" because that misses the individuality of thought and stops us thinking about others' opinions.

Kind of like you just did there.

I stand corrected. In my experience, people who call themselves "progressives" tend to also be "identitarian", but I may be missing many people who would call themselves "progressive" but would also be "egalitarian". (Again, in my experience, people who call themselves "egalitarian" don't tend to also call themselves "progressive"; they tend to use terms like "social democrat", "classical liberal", "left-leaning" or something else.)
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 10, 2020, 01:32:04 PM

I think part of the problem is that there are implicit disagreements on appropriate use of force.

I don't care if someone is a thug - if they're not clearly(*) about to kill you or someone else right that moment, you don't have the right to kill them, whether you're a cop or not, and you should go to jail if you do.

(*) No reasonably fear standard or anything like that - I mean they actually have to have their finger on the trigger of a gun - and, no, something that you were worried might be a gun doesn't count.


So if they have their hand in a pocket, with something in the pocket pointed in your direction, you can't shoot, because you can't be sure they have their finger on the trigger of a gun.   

Pro-tip for criminals: conceal your weapon under some sort of cover while you aim it at cops. And fire whenever you want.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 10, 2020, 02:01:10 PM

Now we have this case.  People jumped to conclusions and rioted.  But the funny thing this time is that the more information we have coming out, it's beginning to look like the evidence is going to point to this in fact being a murder. More keeps coming out each day about their prior relationship and I just heard something else today that, IF TRUE, and it may not be, but IF it is true, makes the likelihood of this being an outright murder much more solidified in my mind.  We're not done getting the facts, but when all is said and done, this one may be outright unjustified and a blatant murder.


So that could point to personal differences more than racism. Or even not racism at all...?

So that would mean BLM loses some its steam, as the perpetrator (Chauvin) was appropriately prosecuted, fired?

Quote
But the rioters and BLM folks may have finally done it; they may have finally gotten themselves a case where their poster boy is a true victim (although I hesitate to say that because it's really hard for me to muster any outrage over the killing of a guy who held a gun to a pregnant woman's stomach and threatened to pull the trigger, but I digress;  As far as this incident goes, the facts seem to be lining up that the cop may have outright murdered him on purpose with no justifiable reason as of that moment in time.)

One per cent of us are just psychopathic. Cops...?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: financeguy on June 10, 2020, 02:08:59 PM
I just got back from lunch and was listening to an air talk episode on NPR. They were talking about the '91 shooting in L.A. by the Korean convenience store owner of a black child. Business ownership came up. The host asked a caller if he "felt there were more black businesses in the community now" and the response was that the caller "didn't feel there were." I'm not trying to get on a semantic diatribe here, but that issue is verifiable by actual facts. I don't know how many more/less black owned businesses there are in the areas or what the reasons for that may be, but the presence or absence of such owners is not a matter of how someone "feels." There are however many there are.

This is the dangerous side of my own argument previously, that we can often let the feels trump the facts, where whoever is the most offended is now "factually correct." I thought it was important to clarify that I do believe the truth is a "get out a jail free" card and if someone wants to refer to someone's biological gender or make explicitly clear that someone is illegally in the country, they are not a member of one of the "ist" groups because of it. They are, however, unlikely to pursued someone to their point of view. Some people (particularly the left leaning twitter mob) need to decide if they want to virtue signal while in cancel mode, alienating anyone not already in their camp or if they wish to actually convince those who do not already agree with them. Two drastically different goals.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: pgher on June 10, 2020, 08:28:05 PM

Now we have this case.  People jumped to conclusions and rioted.  But the funny thing this time is that the more information we have coming out, it's beginning to look like the evidence is going to point to this in fact being a murder. More keeps coming out each day about their prior relationship and I just heard something else today that, IF TRUE, and it may not be, but IF it is true, makes the likelihood of this being an outright murder much more solidified in my mind.  We're not done getting the facts, but when all is said and done, this one may be outright unjustified and a blatant murder.


So that could point to personal differences more than racism. Or even not racism at all...?

So that would mean BLM loses some its steam, as the perpetrator (Chauvin) was appropriately prosecuted, fired?

Chauvin was the worst offender, but not the only one. Three other cops were there and could have stopped him. If Chauvin were not a cop but just some random guy choking another random guy, the bystanders would have more aggressively intervened and/or called the cops.

Maybe he did it for reasons other than race. I don't know or care. There are no "perfect victims" or "perfect villains." Life is complicated and nuanced. This case, coming on the heels of a few others that are in the news, simply brought to the forefront the broad systemic racism and the militarization of police forces across the country.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on June 10, 2020, 10:16:57 PM
There has now been a suggestion that Chauvin (who worked at the same place Floyd did) was actively aggressive with him and may have been enacting a vendetta. First degree murder charges were mentioned as possible in at least one article.

   https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/george-floyd-derek-chauvin-nightclub-bumped-heads/
 
Later the witness changed their account, saying they had confused Floyd with another employee; CBS has updated the article.

M.

 
   
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 11, 2020, 03:44:06 AM
I expect this is going to be talked about. A powerful union boss who loves Trump, (even seems to imitate the brash Trump persona) demonizes BLM and defends excessive use of force. Trump, BTW is not exactly anti-union ideologically. He just loves people who are powerful.

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/05/minneapolis-police-union-president-kroll-george-floyd-racism/
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 11, 2020, 04:43:33 AM
I expect this is going to be talked about. A powerful union boss who loves Trump, (even seems to imitate the brash Trump persona) demonizes BLM and defends excessive use of force. Trump, BTW is not exactly anti-union ideologically. He just loves people who are powerful.

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/05/minneapolis-police-union-president-kroll-george-floyd-racism/

Is Trump anything ideologically? Polishing his own brand seems to be about the only identifiable consistent principle behind his actions.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 11, 2020, 08:55:01 AM

Now we have this case.  People jumped to conclusions and rioted.  But the funny thing this time is that the more information we have coming out, it's beginning to look like the evidence is going to point to this in fact being a murder. More keeps coming out each day about their prior relationship and I just heard something else today that, IF TRUE, and it may not be, but IF it is true, makes the likelihood of this being an outright murder much more solidified in my mind.  We're not done getting the facts, but when all is said and done, this one may be outright unjustified and a blatant murder.


So that could point to personal differences more than racism. Or even not racism at all...?

So that would mean BLM loses some its steam, as the perpetrator (Chauvin) was appropriately prosecuted, fired?

Chauvin was the worst offender, but not the only one. Three other cops were there and could have stopped him. If Chauvin were not a cop but just some random guy choking another random guy, the bystanders would have more aggressively intervened and/or called the cops.

Maybe he did it for reasons other than race. I don't know or care. There are no "perfect victims" or "perfect villains." Life is complicated and nuanced. This case, coming on the heels of a few others that are in the news, simply brought to the forefront the broad systemic racism and the militarization of police forces across the country.

And the question will always remain, did he think he could get away with it since the coworker he had a beef with was African American instead of a burly white bouncer?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 11, 2020, 10:07:12 AM

Chauvin was the worst offender, but not the only one. Three other cops were there and could have stopped him. If Chauvin were not a cop but just some random guy choking another random guy, the bystanders would have more aggressively intervened and/or called the cops.

Maybe he did it for reasons other than race. I don't know or care. There are no "perfect victims" or "perfect villains." Life is complicated and nuanced. This case, coming on the heels of a few others that are in the news, simply brought to the forefront the broad systemic racism and the militarization of police forces across the country.

And the question will always remain, did he think he could get away with it since the coworker he had a beef with was African American instead of a burly white bouncer?
[/quote]

From what I have read about the union boss of the Minneapolis police and the consolidation of power he has enjoyed, the excessive force would not have been considered not excessive if George Floyd had not died.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Descartes on June 12, 2020, 11:29:02 AM
And now, of course, the latest developments turn out to be false:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floyd-derek-chauvin-nightclub-bumped-heads-changes-story/

This is exactly why I don't jump on bandwagons.  Now we're back to not knowing if there was any motivation to this and I can no longer lean towards intentional murder - though the action was still inappropriate and definitely not acceptable.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on June 12, 2020, 11:48:52 AM
There has now been a suggestion that Chauvin (who worked at the same place Floyd did) was actively aggressive with him and may have been enacting a vendetta. First degree murder charges were mentioned as possible in at least one article.

   https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/george-floyd-derek-chauvin-nightclub-bumped-heads/
 
Later the witness changed their account, saying they had confused Floyd with another employee; CBS has updated the article.

M.

As posted above. But thanks for bringing it to everyone's attention again.

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 12, 2020, 01:31:46 PM
And now, of course, the latest developments turn out to be false:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floyd-derek-chauvin-nightclub-bumped-heads-changes-story/

This is exactly why I don't jump on bandwagons.  Now we're back to not knowing if there was any motivation to this and I can no longer lean towards intentional murder - though the action was still inappropriate and definitely not acceptable.

I kind of wonder if the witness suddenly decided he didn't want to enter the maelstrom.  I find the "I mistook Floyd for another employee" pretty weak.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on June 12, 2020, 01:56:11 PM
And now, of course, the latest developments turn out to be false:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floyd-derek-chauvin-nightclub-bumped-heads-changes-story/

This is exactly why I don't jump on bandwagons.  Now we're back to not knowing if there was any motivation to this and I can no longer lean towards intentional murder - though the action was still inappropriate and definitely not acceptable.

I kind of wonder if the witness suddenly decided he didn't want to enter the maelstrom.  I find the "I mistook Floyd for another employee" pretty weak.

What I find really confusing is that, if I'm reading the article correctly, after they quote him expressing his mistake, the article goes on to restate all of the apparently incorrect testimony. It's 2/3 of the freakin' space!


Typically when a newspaper prints a correction, they say something like "So -and-so attested that he mistook George Floyd for another man. Incorrect information was printed earlier." AND THEN THEY STOP. By repeating the whole apparently incorrect story, they just reinforce it. "Sorry, not sorry." I'm not sure what their game is.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on June 12, 2020, 03:15:25 PM

Now we have this case.  People jumped to conclusions and rioted.  But the funny thing this time is that the more information we have coming out, it's beginning to look like the evidence is going to point to this in fact being a murder. More keeps coming out each day about their prior relationship and I just heard something else today that, IF TRUE, and it may not be, but IF it is true, makes the likelihood of this being an outright murder much more solidified in my mind.  We're not done getting the facts, but when all is said and done, this one may be outright unjustified and a blatant murder.


So that could point to personal differences more than racism. Or even not racism at all...?

So that would mean BLM loses some its steam, as the perpetrator (Chauvin) was appropriately prosecuted, fired?

Chauvin was the worst offender, but not the only one. Three other cops were there and could have stopped him. If Chauvin were not a cop but just some random guy choking another random guy, the bystanders would have more aggressively intervened and/or called the cops.

Maybe he did it for reasons other than race. I don't know or care. There are no "perfect victims" or "perfect villains." Life is complicated and nuanced. This case, coming on the heels of a few others that are in the news, simply brought to the forefront the broad systemic racism and the militarization of police forces across the country.

As I understand it, Chauvin and the Asian American were the senior members on the force, and each had a long list of complaints against them for mistreatment of suspects in custody. The other two were rookies. Either one or both of them objected to what was being done, but didn't prevent it. I'm not sure how the hierarchy of command works in these situations, but it looks like the best you could have hoped for would have been the two rookies squaring off against the two veterans. In other words, a rumble.
More gasoline for the fire:    https://nypost.com/2020/06/12/derek-chauvin-ex-cop-charged-in-george-floyd-death-could-get-1-5m-in-benefits/
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: apl68 on June 29, 2020, 02:57:14 PM
And the cappings in the police-free zone in Seattle continue:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/29/us/chop-seattle-shooting/index.html

They're up to five now, with at least two dead, within two weeks.  Note that this is CNN talking, not Fox News.

Yet another revolution that has lost no time eating its own young.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 06, 2020, 07:27:30 AM
American Spectator claims it wasn't murder....https://spectator.org/george-floyd-death-toxicology-report/

CNN has a brief report....https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/03/us/george-floyd-police-body-camera-video-leak/index.html

I suppose if the officers are acquitted there will be more turmoil.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: writingprof on August 06, 2020, 07:58:21 AM
Also, the new video is somewhat exculpatory.  We know this in part because no one's reporting on it.  (It damages the narrative and thus must be suppressed.)  However, if anyone wants a link and commentary, I recommend Jason Whitlock:

https://www.outkick.com/george-floyd-bodycam-footage-shows-it-wasnt-about-race-will-nbactivists-actually-admit-that/

Let's all try to refrain from calling him an Uncle Tom, please.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on August 06, 2020, 08:23:26 AM
I don't have the energy to go through the whole thing in detail right now. But I do want to say two things:

Even if we assume it's true that Floyd was slowly dying from a fentanyl overdose (and I don't think we should, but let's roll with it), that's not relevant. It's not relevant because (1) the main general issue is police brutality, i.e. the unjustified use of force by state actors, of which this case is still a clear-cut example, and (2) even in cases where death is overdetermined, we care about and charge proximal causes of death.

On (2), imagine what would happen if someone had ingested a lethal dose of a slow-acting poison, and you shot them in the head. Or if you're in the army, an enemy combatant has sustained what are clearly life-ending wounds, and you accelerate the process by shooting them. Or if you're a doctor and can see some patients are slowly dying of absolutely terminal cancer, and you hasten the process. In every case, you're charged with murder (also: the first case is a thought experiment, but the other two are based on real life cases). Overdetermination is not an effective defence when you're the proximal cause.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on August 06, 2020, 09:11:40 AM
Agreed.

If someone says they can't breathe, you get off their neck.

Unless you're intending to kill them.

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 06, 2020, 09:51:04 AM

Agreed.

If someone says they can't breathe, you get off their neck.

Unless you're intending to kill them.

M.

He didn't believe him, apparently.

If you were trying to kill someone you wouldn't also call for an ambulance.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on August 06, 2020, 10:58:43 AM

He didn't believe him, apparently.

If you were trying to kill someone you wouldn't also call for an ambulance.

You might well, in an effort to give yourself plausible deniability.

More importantly: it's entirely consistent with culpable homicide and criminal negligence causing death.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: writingprof on August 06, 2020, 12:25:54 PM
It's not worth arguing about.  Just bookmark this thread so that you have an explanation when Chauvin is acquitted.

"But I already have an explanation.  It's raaaaaaaaaaacism!"

As I said, it's not worth arguing about.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 06, 2020, 01:06:05 PM
Also, the new video is somewhat exculpatory.  We know this in part because no one's reporting on it.  (It damages the narrative and thus must be suppressed.)  However, if anyone wants a link and commentary, I recommend Jason Whitlock:

https://www.outkick.com/george-floyd-bodycam-footage-shows-it-wasnt-about-race-will-nbactivists-actually-admit-that/

Let's all try to refrain from calling him an Uncle Tom, please.

CNN did quite an extensive dissection of the video last night. You might not have agreed with the dissection, but they certainly reported on it.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 06, 2020, 01:16:30 PM
The reluctance to believe George Floyd when he said he couldn't breathe could be the result of:

Confusion about the fact that he was protesting he couldn't breathe minutes earlier in the squad car despite the fact that he was talking non-stop, as well as general hysterical protesting, though he was not being brutalized.
He claimed he was claustrophobic but when they first encountered him he was in the front seat of a very small car.
He was suspected of passing fake money.
He claimed he wasn't high which obviously wasn't true (later borne out by the autopsy.)
Lack of knowledge about the symptoms of fentanyl and amphetamine overdose.

When you've known a guy five minutes and he's already told you a handful of whoppers, he's not truth teller.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: writingprof on August 06, 2020, 03:32:22 PM
Also, the new video is somewhat exculpatory.  We know this in part because no one's reporting on it.  (It damages the narrative and thus must be suppressed.)  However, if anyone wants a link and commentary, I recommend Jason Whitlock:

https://www.outkick.com/george-floyd-bodycam-footage-shows-it-wasnt-about-race-will-nbactivists-actually-admit-that/

Let's all try to refrain from calling him an Uncle Tom, please.

CNN did quite an extensive dissection of the video last night. You might not have agreed with the dissection, but they certainly reported on it.

Thank you.  That's good to know.  I don't watch television news.  What was their conclusion?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: kaysixteen on August 06, 2020, 07:05:12 PM
Chauvin is probably a bad actor, certainly his record on the cops makes me wonder what the hell he was still doing on the cops, and if he absolutely positively still had to be on the job, what the hell was the dept thinking when they made him a training officer for rookies who had been on the job for three days?   And the training, in any case, was awful-- what made anyone think sitting on the guy's chest was acceptable?  That said, Floyd was not necessarily a good actor either.   What concerns me greatly is Chauvin's ability to get a fair trial...  I think it impossible he will be able to get one in or around Minneapolis, and his trial will probably have to be moved somewhere up in the state's north country, which would probably end up meaning an all-white rural jury.  He is almost certainly currently overcharged, anyhow, as the prosecutors would have to prove an intent to kill him, whereas there are other charges that would be much easier for them to prove.  All this, of course, is not necessarily related to the larger question of what changes obviously need to be made to the Minneapolis PD specifically, and to many if not most American PDs, especially urban ones, as well (think Springfield, MA, for an especially horrid case).   But we must not give in to the idea that every time a cop kills a black guy, the black guy was unjustifiably killed (think, for instance, of the case in Atlanta recently where the drunk dude assaulted one of the officers trying to arrest him after he had failed the breathalyzer test, stole the man's tazer, started to run away, then pointed the tazer back at the other cop, getting himself shot in the process.)   Overreaction on the issue of police reform is an issue that Drumpf would be especially keen to use against Biden (who thankfully has not taken the bait), and is but one of the issues that the Democrats need to be very careful with over the next three months, lest they snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 06, 2020, 07:30:05 PM
I watched the leaked footage and, you know, I'm not sure there is any exoneration there. 

Floyd is irrational and probably high.  He is also scared, as I think are a lot of African-Americans when dealing with police, rightly or wrongly.  And the police, no doubt following procedure, repeatedly threaten him, shout at him, point a gun at him, cuff him and force him into the back of police car as he complains he is claustrophobic.  Again, I am sure these are procedures.  I am sure police are trained to perform this way.  But Floyd is begging and doing his best to at least be polite.  He's terrified.  Where's the humanity and empathy for an American citizen, no matter how flawed?

If anything, I suspect this footage is going to make people even angrier. 

Is it possible to train police to deescalate?  Must they manhandle suspects when they are obviously not armed?  Nobody tried to calm Floyd down? 

No, the police are just as culpable.  Maybe even more.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 07, 2020, 01:40:34 AM

Even if we assume it's true that Floyd was slowly dying from a fentanyl  goofball (fentanyl and methamphetamine) overdose (and I don't think we should, but let's roll with it),

I think it's very likely. In the video he's in the squad car complaining that he can't breathe. Just minutes before he was in the convenience store trying to buy cigarettes. You wouldn't be thinking about cigarettes if you can't breathe. It looks like things were getting worse quickly for Mr. Floyd.

I watched the leaked footage and, you know, I'm not sure there is any exoneration there. 

Floyd is irrational and probably high.  He is also scared, as I think are a lot of African-Americans when dealing with police, rightly or wrongly.

Criminals of any color may be scared when dealing with police because they expected to get away with a crime and now it looks like they didn't. Black people are not the only criminals experiencing fear when they get apprehended. Of course, if you're overdosing too, it's even worse.

Quote
Is it possible to train police to deescalate?  Must they manhandle suspects when they are obviously not armed?  Nobody tried to calm Floyd down? 

De-escalate? Try to calm him down? He is anything but cooperative. He could not keep quiet or follow the simplest orders. A constant tirade of protesting. 'I'm not that kind of guy.' 'Please.' A pretty dramatic performance. Probably knew he was being filmed.
The reason to draw the gun was probably that they had already heard reports of him acting erratically and agitatedly when they arrived.
Quote
If anything, I suspect this footage is going to make people even angrier. 

You might be right about this. People will watch the same video and see very different things. Some will pay more attention to the media talking over the video in narration, drowning out what's actually happening. Of the several that I viewed, only Candace Owens' video lets you actually watch and listen. The thing that amazes me is the media have already been watching this night-of-hell for the rookie policemen and all most of them have to say is 'racism!" Good for their ratings I guess.

Quote
Where's the humanity and empathy for an American citizen, no matter how flawed?

If you missed the five day funeral, you can still get your George Floyd T-shirt or coffee mug. And perhaps you'll get a webinar showing you how to stop teaching like a racist.


Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 07, 2020, 06:08:20 AM
con't

Tucker Carlson: 'The officers ask Floyd 'are you on something?' Floyd: "no." Police: 'Because you're acting erratic.' There's a reason police ask that. He was clearly in distress.'
I would add the question if the police had known from that moment that Floyd was taking fentanyl could his life have been saved?

Attorney General of Minnesota hid the video, as he tells it, to strengthen the prosecution. Changing history, as Carlson accurately says, and bringing about a cultural revolution.

Considering the disservice done to the Americans watching the news and trying to understand what happened, I think Carlson was pretty subdued.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/tucker-carlson-reaction-leaked-george-floyd-footage


Chauvin is probably a bad actor, certainly his record on the cops makes me wonder what the hell he was still doing on the cops, and if he absolutely positively still had to be on the job, what the hell was the dept thinking when they made him a training officer for rookies who had been on the job for three days?   And the training, in any case, was awful-- what made anyone think sitting on the guy's chest was acceptable?  That said, Floyd was not necessarily a good actor either.   What concerns me greatly is Chauvin's ability to get a fair trial...  I think it impossible he will be able to get one in or around Minneapolis, and his trial will probably have to be moved somewhere up in the state's north country, which would probably end up meaning an all-white rural jury. He is almost certainly currently overcharged, anyhow, as the prosecutors would have to prove an intent to kill him, whereas there are other charges that would be much easier for them to prove.  All this, of course, is not necessarily related to the larger question of what changes obviously need to be made to the Minneapolis PD specifically, and to many if not most American PDs, especially urban ones, as well (think Springfield, MA, for an especially horrid case).   But we must not give in to the idea that every time a cop kills a black guy, the black guy was unjustifiably killed (think, for instance, of the case in Atlanta recently where the drunk dude assaulted one of the officers trying to arrest him after he had failed the breathalyzer test, stole the man's tazer, started to run away, then pointed the tazer back at the other cop, getting himself shot in the process.)   Overreaction on the issue of police reform is an issue that Drumpf would be especially keen to use against Biden (who thankfully has not taken the bait), and is but one of the issues that the Democrats need to be very careful with over the next three months, lest they snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Having bowed to pressure to move the charge up to murder in the second degree.

(Italic) Swedes? Can't we trust them to be impartial?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 07, 2020, 06:14:34 AM
deleted
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 07, 2020, 08:29:17 AM
Also, the new video is somewhat exculpatory.  We know this in part because no one's reporting on it.  (It damages the narrative and thus must be suppressed.)  However, if anyone wants a link and commentary, I recommend Jason Whitlock:

https://www.outkick.com/george-floyd-bodycam-footage-shows-it-wasnt-about-race-will-nbactivists-actually-admit-that/

Let's all try to refrain from calling him an Uncle Tom, please.

CNN did quite an extensive dissection of the video last night. You might not have agreed with the dissection, but they certainly reported on it.

Thank you.  That's good to know.  I don't watch television news.  What was their conclusion?

Basically what Wahoo stated just below our posts.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 07, 2020, 09:28:41 AM
Tucker Carlson and one loses all legitimacy.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: writingprof on August 07, 2020, 09:47:02 AM
Tucker Carlson and one loses all legitimacy.

Really?  I understand that people on the left may think him a liar, and certainly his factual claims should be checked.  However, his analysis is an argument like anyone else's and must be either shouted down (in which case you're a moron) or defeated (in which case, well done).  Merely dismissing his reasoning because he's a current hate-figure is childish.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 07, 2020, 10:14:37 AM
Tucker Carlson and one loses all legitimacy.

Really?  I understand that people on the left may think him a liar, and certainly his factual claims should be checked.  However, his analysis is an argument like anyone else's and must be either shouted down (in which case you're a moron) or defeated (in which case, well done).  Merely dismissing his reasoning because he's a current hate-figure is childish.

"hate-figure"

That is a perfect description of his career.  Apparently Carlson refuses to accept the results of autopsies.  He claims we don't know what actually happened.  He claims that Floyd was aggressive toward the officers (despite the many "please Mr. Officer" Floyd utters) and no evidence that he was actually attacking anyone---if anything Floyd is docile but upset.  Apparently Carlson relies on reports that drugs were the cause of death that have now been debunked (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/george-floyds-autopsy-and-the-structural-gaslighting-of-america/).   And Carlson simply refuses to believe what the video shows.  In other words, he makes a number of claims as if he is a careful journalistic commentator dissecting the news.

But we all know what Carlson is going to say before he says it.  We all know that he is going to challenge anything not palatable to people like you, WP.  He is going to tell you what you want to be true.  Carlson is going to tell you what you want to hear, WP, because that's his job.  There is no real "argument" in anything he says, simply opinions designed to appeal to the hard-right niche. 

Sorry WP, if you follow Carlson et al. you've hitched yourself to the agitprop.  I will not waste any more of my time. 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 07, 2020, 10:59:57 AM
I just picked one paragraph at random. I could have found more. This is pretty grandstand-y, gratuitous. And did we really need another definition of 'gas lighting?' Has anyone been in a coma?
"The declarations, the truths, the realities of Black people in America are too often disregarded. Across the nation, Black people are suffocating under the weight of anti-Black hatred. They cannot breathe. And even as they gasp for air, structural gaslighting operates to deny the truths of the causes of their suffocation."
Pretty [melodramatic downright silly and implausible. I don't know any people who hate black people. Guess I should get out more. Wait a minute, I've been teaching at multiple colleges for decades and running my own business. What the...?
The five physicians are dying to get their fifteen minutes of fame. That doesn't mean they're wrong about how George Floyd died, but neither did they convince me that they know for certain.
Angel's wings. Wow.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 07, 2020, 11:38:20 AM
I don't know any people who hate black people. Guess I should get out more.

OMG my brother.  Get out more.  Your college crowd ain't a 'tickerlarly great control group, first of all, and secondly, I suspect you know these people less well than you imagine.  I'm willing to believe it's now a minority of Americans who are actually acting racists this day and age, but they are our there.  I know, I've met them.  I grew up with them.  Some are in my extended family.  Heck, just head on over to Breitballs or Reddit for a gander.

In the mean time, avoid exposing naivete if you can.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: financeguy on August 07, 2020, 12:52:48 PM
There's definitely a ton a racism out there, a large portion of which is engaged in by non-whites, not to mention the insanely high level of accepted anti-gay sentiment in the black community, as evidenced by the hugely disproportionate prop 8 CA vote in 2008, the Buttigeig 0% (!) black rating when leading a state and many comments by prominent leaders that are less than twitter approved to say the least. I don't mind admitting there are problems whites need to address, but it gets exhausting being critiqued from the inhabitants of a giant glass house.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: writingprof on August 07, 2020, 12:54:55 PM
Sorry WP, if you follow Carlson et al. you've hitched yourself to the agitprop.  I will not waste any more of my time.

I can honestly say that I have never watched his show in my life and am not totally sure what he looks like.  I don't watch cable news, and I'm not on social media.  That said, I still insist that individual arguments should be reckoned with even if the arguer is despised.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 07, 2020, 12:59:03 PM
Sorry WP, if you follow Carlson et al. you've hitched yourself to the agitprop.  I will not waste any more of my time.

I can honestly say that I have never watched his show in my life and am not totally sure what he looks like.  I don't watch cable news, and I'm not on social media.  That said, I still insist that individual arguments should be reckoned with even if the arguer is despised.

I also do not spend my time listening to David Duke.  I feel no need to reckon with anything he says.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 07, 2020, 02:32:01 PM
There's definitely a ton a racism out there, a large portion of which is engaged in by non-whites, not to mention the insanely high level of accepted anti-gay sentiment in the black community, as evidenced by the hugely disproportionate prop 8 CA vote in 2008, the Buttigeig 0% (!) black rating when leading a state and many comments by prominent leaders that are less than twitter approved to say the least. I don't mind admitting there are problems whites need to address, but it gets exhausting being critiqued from the inhabitants of a giant glass house.

A gay friend of mine describes a black person in our field as 'very racist' but I wonder if what's really bothering her is he is anti-gay.

I have noticed a shift in how people are talking on the internet. Since the Floyd incident. A handful of my FB friends now seem incapable of processing many experiences without discussing racism. It's maddeningly negative. Most but not all are white.

Here's something only seven years old that may confirm what you posted: https://www.oaoa.com/editorial/columns/opinion_columnist/article_a7b9c3a2-ea82-11e2-8c20-0019bb30f31a.html

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 07, 2020, 03:49:24 PM
I don't know any people who hate black people. Guess I should get out more.

OMG my brother.  Get out more.  Your college crowd ain't a 'tickerlarly great control group, first of all, and secondly, I suspect you know these people less well than you imagine.  I'm willing to believe it's now a minority of Americans who are actually acting racists this day and age, but they are our there.  I know, I've met them.  I grew up with them.  Some are in my extended family.  Heck, just head on over to Breitballs or Reddit for a gander.

In the mean time, avoid exposing naivete if you can.

It's not naiveté. It's something closer to disgust. People who see white against black racism everywhere are a profound disappointment.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 07, 2020, 04:06:43 PM
I don't know any people who hate black people. Guess I should get out more.

OMG my brother.  Get out more.  Your college crowd ain't a 'tickerlarly great control group, first of all, and secondly, I suspect you know these people less well than you imagine.  I'm willing to believe it's now a minority of Americans who are actually acting racists this day and age, but they are our there.  I know, I've met them.  I grew up with them.  Some are in my extended family.  Heck, just head on over to Breitballs or Reddit for a gander.

In the mean time, avoid exposing naivete if you can.

It's not naiveté. It's something closer to disgust. People who see white against black racism everywhere are a profound disappointment.

Perhaps.  But that's a strawman. 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: financeguy on August 07, 2020, 04:57:40 PM
mahagonny, I'm frequently interested with what Sowell has to say about these issues. It's funny that he mentions the reaction of black leaders to the Duke case and OJ Simpson trial. That's not nearly as problematic as actual jurors admitting to deciding trials based on race which is exactly what OJ Juror Carrie Bess admitted "90% of the jury" made their decision on.

Ann Coulter has cited this moment as the "end of white guilt." I have to admit that seeing people cheering at the result of a double murder trial lessens my sympathies for their concerns as actors attempting to apply a standard of fairness for all rather than simply following own group preference.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 08, 2020, 03:55:21 AM
Oh, I get Coulter's point. OJ's acquittal represented a shift. The resentment is there for all to see. In the meantime many of us have had OJ moments in our private lives with that moment where you see that someone hates you because of your skin color.
But white guilt and sweeping black on white racism under the rug are still alive and well and big business in academia. It's gives one a skewed picture of what really goes on, of course. Perhaps interesting, as faculty get ready for fall by wondering if there's going to be one, diversity and inclusion staff all across the nation get the shot in the arm from George Floyd and the four policemen. And Robin D'Angelo gets a second wind. What do you think she gets for a fee these days? Bonanza. And please, let's not expose naïveté by trying to deny it.
Another thing getting swept under the rug -- how do all the white guilt orgies help Black America with its challenges and pain? (Answer?: not our problem?)
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 08, 2020, 10:04:25 AM
Finishing up here, perhaps.

That is a perfect description of his career.  Apparently Carlson refuses to accept the results of autopsies.  He claims we don't know what actually happened.  He claims that Floyd was aggressive toward the officers (despite the many "please Mr. Officer" Floyd utters) and no evidence that he was actually attacking anyone---if anything Floyd is docile but upset.  Apparently Carlson relies on reports that drugs were the cause of death that have now been debunked (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/george-floyds-autopsy-and-the-structural-gaslighting-of-america/).   

Just to give us an idea of how on-the-level these physicians are (they obviously are not):

"A timeline of events illustrates how a series of omissions and commissions regarding Mr. Floyd’s initial autopsy results deceptively fractured the truth. On May 28, a statement released by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s office reported ongoing investigations and acknowledgement from the forensic pathologist that an “autopsy … must be interpreted in the context of the pertinent investigative information.” As per standardized medical examination, Floyd’s underlying health conditions and toxicology screen were documented. These are ordinary findings that do not suggest causation of death, yet headlines and the May 29 charging document falsely overstated the role of Floyd’s coronary artery disease and hypertension, which increase the risk of stroke and heart attack over years, not minutes. Asphyxia—suffocation—does not always demonstrate physical signs, as other physician groups have noted."

They're assuming you won't think enough to envision George Floyd going to any one of them for an annual physical:
'I'm 46 years old. I have a 48% enlarged heart, several main arteries that are severely blocked, hypertension, I smoke cigarettes, and when I can get 'em I Take methamphetamine/fentanyl goofballs. Oh, I have trouble with the law too.'

'Oh, OK. Well, some time in the next five, ten years, you might plan to cut down on the smoking and goofballs.'

No, obviously, if they are any kind of physician at al they'd be quite alarmed, because he was on borrowed time.

Your source is not good,
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 08, 2020, 03:20:04 PM
Finishing up here, perhaps.

That is a perfect description of his career.  Apparently Carlson refuses to accept the results of autopsies.  He claims we don't know what actually happened.  He claims that Floyd was aggressive toward the officers (despite the many "please Mr. Officer" Floyd utters) and no evidence that he was actually attacking anyone---if anything Floyd is docile but upset.  Apparently Carlson relies on reports that drugs were the cause of death that have now been debunked (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/george-floyds-autopsy-and-the-structural-gaslighting-of-america/).   

Just to give us an idea of how on-the-level these physicians are (they obviously are not):

"A timeline of events illustrates how a series of omissions and commissions regarding Mr. Floyd’s initial autopsy results deceptively fractured the truth. On May 28, a statement released by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s office reported ongoing investigations and acknowledgement from the forensic pathologist that an “autopsy … must be interpreted in the context of the pertinent investigative information.” As per standardized medical examination, Floyd’s underlying health conditions and toxicology screen were documented. These are ordinary findings that do not suggest causation of death, yet headlines and the May 29 charging document falsely overstated the role of Floyd’s coronary artery disease and hypertension, which increase the risk of stroke and heart attack over years, not minutes. Asphyxia—suffocation—does not always demonstrate physical signs, as other physician groups have noted."

They're assuming you won't think enough to envision George Floyd going to any one of them for an annual physical:
'I'm 46 years old. I have a 48% enlarged heart, several main arteries that are severely blocked, hypertension, I smoke cigarettes, and when I can get 'em I Take methamphetamine/fentanyl goofballs. Oh, I have trouble with the law too.'

'Oh, OK. Well, some time in the next five, ten years, you might plan to cut down on the smoking and goofballs.'

No, obviously, if they are any kind of physician at al they'd be quite alarmed, because he was on borrowed time.

Your source is not good,

Scientific American is "not good?  Yeah---okay.

And even if Floyd was on "borrowed time"----which you don't know----that excuses nothing that was done to him.  Why is it that conservatives are always such inhumane thinkers?

Unless I am mistaken, my friend, you are not a doctor or a coroner, nor do you have much experience with police investigations and no first hand knowledge of this case.

You've just fallen into the pit of a reality you don't like and don't want to believe in.

Sometimes we have to accept things we don't want to.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 08, 2020, 07:00:15 PM
Finishing up here, perhaps.

That is a perfect description of his career.  Apparently Carlson refuses to accept the results of autopsies.  He claims we don't know what actually happened.  He claims that Floyd was aggressive toward the officers (despite the many "please Mr. Officer" Floyd utters) and no evidence that he was actually attacking anyone---if anything Floyd is docile but upset.  Apparently Carlson relies on reports that drugs were the cause of death that have now been debunked (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/george-floyds-autopsy-and-the-structural-gaslighting-of-america/).   

Just to give us an idea of how on-the-level these physicians are (they obviously are not):

"A timeline of events illustrates how a series of omissions and commissions regarding Mr. Floyd’s initial autopsy results deceptively fractured the truth. On May 28, a statement released by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s office reported ongoing investigations and acknowledgement from the forensic pathologist that an “autopsy … must be interpreted in the context of the pertinent investigative information.” As per standardized medical examination, Floyd’s underlying health conditions and toxicology screen were documented. These are ordinary findings that do not suggest causation of death, yet headlines and the May 29 charging document falsely overstated the role of Floyd’s coronary artery disease and hypertension, which increase the risk of stroke and heart attack over years, not minutes. Asphyxia—suffocation—does not always demonstrate physical signs, as other physician groups have noted."

They're assuming you won't think enough to envision George Floyd going to any one of them for an annual physical:
'I'm 46 years old. I have a 48% enlarged heart, several main arteries that are severely blocked, hypertension, I smoke cigarettes, and when I can get 'em I Take methamphetamine/fentanyl goofballs. Oh, I have trouble with the law too.'

'Oh, OK. Well, some time in the next five, ten years, you might plan to cut down on the smoking and goofballs.'

No, obviously, if they are any kind of physician at al they'd be quite alarmed, because he was on borrowed time.

Your source is not good,

Scientific American is "not good?  Yeah---okay.

If it were an infallible source then I should be able to tell what this means:

"These are ordinary findings that do not suggest causation of death, yet headlines and the May 29 charging document falsely overstated the role of Floyd’s coronary artery disease and hypertension, which[i] increase the risk of stroke and heart attack over years, not minutes. [/i]Asphyxia—suffocation—does not always demonstrate physical signs, as other physician groups have noted."

And I can't, because it's meaningless, and an editor can see that. Obviously the authors do not know when Floyd's heart conditions were first diagnosed. From the argument they make if it were very recent then their argument is stronger. So they don't know that information or they'd be telling you. Or else they expect the problems had existed for some time, which I do, because we know he was getting busted for cocaine twenty years earlier. You don't have to be a doctor to know cocaine is bad for your heart. It's common knowledge. Also obvious, when you finally do suffer a lethal stroke or heart attack, you can be finished off within minutes of the onset.

Quote
You've just fallen into the pit of a reality you don't like and don't want to believe in.

Sometimes we have to accept things we don't want to.

The reality is we don't know to what extent the treatment he got from police contributed to his death, as Carlson pointed out, which is really nothing to be uncomfortable about. So, no.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 08, 2020, 08:55:15 PM
You've misinterpreted what your own excerpt says.  Reread it.  It is not hard to comprehend.

Okay, here:

"...headlines and the May 29 charging document falsely overstated the role of Floyd’s coronary artery disease and hypertension,..."

The headlines and police documentation overplayed the roles of heart disease and high-blood pressure in the death of Floyd.  In other words, the headlines that portrayed Floyd's death as a matter of preexisting heart conditions were inaccurate.

"...which increase the risk of stroke and heart attack over years, not minutes."

These are conditions which take a long-time to affect someone's health, years actually, and would not kill someone during a short-term event.  In other words, no, Floyd would not have died of coronary artery disease and hypertension under the circumstances of his arrest.  Something else killed him.

"Asphyxia—suffocation—does not always demonstrate physical signs, as other physician groups have noted."

And the probable cause of death, suffocation, is not always detectable.  Physicians have said this already.

At the bottom of that page are the authors' credentials in brief.  They are all doctors.  Look for yourself.  You have a team of doctors telling you that high blood pressure did not kill this man.

You've just got it wrong.  Just let it go, son. 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 09, 2020, 05:28:52 AM
I have no great love of the police culture to the point of trusting them down to the last body. Know what got me re thinking this? We have information these physicians didn't have. We now have a video of George Floyd complaining that he couldn't breathe before Derek Chauvin arrived, before he was taken out of the police car and put on the ground (he requested to be allowed to lie down outdoors, BTW) before the knee was on his neck. Why would you not be able to breathe inside a police car? Two possible answers: (1) you're breathing just fine and lying about it, that's possible, or (2) you're a smoker who's taking drugs that cause respiratory failure.
There's also information we still don't have: what was the degree of force applied to the neck? Only Chauvin knows.
Quote
And even if Floyd was on "borrowed time"----which you don't know----that excuses nothing that was done to him.  Why is it that conservatives are always such inhumane thinkers?

A little perspective: Chauvin is fired, so he won't be doing what he did any more. Yet people are clamoring for him to spend the rest of his life in jail. I can't think of any reason Derek Chauvin, in particular, should spend the rest of his life in jail for a very bad day at work in which he did his job using one of the the options for which he was trained. Can you?

Quote
You've just got it wrong.  Just let it go, son.

Pretty sure I'm older than you.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on August 09, 2020, 05:50:35 AM
I have no great love of the police culture to the point of trusting them down to the last body. Know what got me re thinking this? We have information these physicians didn't have. We now have a video of George Floyd complaining that he couldn't breathe before Derek Chauvin arrived, before he was taken out of the police car and put on the ground (he requested to be allowed to lie down outdoors, BTW) before the knee was on his neck. Why would you not be able to breathe inside a police car? Two possible answers: (1) you're breathing just fine and lying about it, that's possible, or (2) you're a smoker who's taking drugs that cause respiratory failure.
There's also information we still don't have: what was the degree of force applied to the neck? Only Chauvin knows.

This is the vital question. Before seeing the bodycam video, the obvious interpretation of "I can't breathe" with someone's knee on a person's neck was that the knee was applying lots of pressure. But knowing that in the police car, with nothing on his face or neck, he was saying "I can't breathe", it completely calls into question whether the pressure on his neck was excessive.

What is needed is a medical expert with no axe to grind in this situation who can look at the autopsy results to see whether the medical history and amount of drugs in his system would be likely to result in respiratory arrest.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 09, 2020, 07:03:21 AM
Videos do not change medical fact.  You are grasping at straws.

Pretty sure I'm older than you.

Perhaps.

The Beatles' Help is five months older than I am.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 09, 2020, 07:07:26 AM
A little perspective: Chauvin is fired, so he won't be doing what he did any more. Yet people are clamoring for him to spend the rest of his life in jail. I can't think of any reason Derek Chauvin, in particular, should spend the rest of his life in jail for a very bad day at work in which he did his job using one of the the options for which he was trained. Can you?

Yes.  Murder.  Police brutality.  That was not what he was trained to do.  That's the most ridiculous thing you've ever posted, and you seem mighty hysterical to prove Floyd was a bad man who does not deserve our empathy.  Now you are defending a killer-cop.

Mahagonny, you are actually now starting to sound like one of these frustrated, impotent bigots.  If this is the case, we have nothing to talk about.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on August 09, 2020, 08:29:27 AM
I started this thread and now I can barely stand to open it and read it.

Could people all please speak to/write to each other with respect and avoid name-calling, characterizations, and insubstantiatable charges of bad will?

I know an OP can't direct the direction of a thread, but I'd like to think I had something to say about its tone.

This issue is a painful, serious one.

It is not meant to be another locus for grandstanding.

People may have good points to make on either side, but they can be made with care and consideration.

At heart, that's what the issue itself was about.

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 09, 2020, 08:40:08 AM
Sorry mamselle, but I don't think this topic is going to go smoothly, no matter where it is discussed.  It is simply an ugly, terrible event with ugly consequences that taps into a very dark part of the American psyche.  It is simply going to be bad.

For my part I don't think there is anything left to say here.  I'm out.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on August 09, 2020, 09:47:51 AM
A little perspective: Chauvin is fired, so he won't be doing what he did any more. Yet people are clamoring for him to spend the rest of his life in jail. I can't think of any reason Derek Chauvin, in particular, should spend the rest of his life in jail for a very bad day at work in which he did his job using one of the the options for which he was trained. Can you?

Yes.  Murder.  Police brutality. 

These assume that George Floyd died because of excessive pressure on his neck applied by Derek Chauvin. But as I indicated above, that is based on the assumption that the pressure was what caused the respiratory problems. Since the respiratory problems preceeded the events outside the police car, the breathing problems themselves are not solid evidence of how much pressure was being applied to George Floyd's neck.

I have no medical training, so I have no idea whether the pre-existing health conditions and the drug use would have been likely to produce respiratory failure without any external pressure on his windpipe. That's a question that needs to be answered, and it has to be answered by someone who's not an advocate for either side in this situation.

That question has nothing to do with bigotry, or support (or lack thereof) for the police; it's a scientific question that needs to be addressed so that this case can come to some sort of objective resolution.

(And, even if the evidence ultimately supports the conclusion of police brutality, that does not in and of itself answer the question of whether it was racially-motivated.)
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: writingprof on August 09, 2020, 10:32:49 AM
I started this thread and now I can barely stand to open it and read it.

Could people all please speak to/write to each other with respect and avoid name-calling, characterizations, and insubstantiatable charges of bad will?

I know an OP can't direct the direction of a thread, but I'd like to think I had something to say about its tone.

This issue is a painful, serious one.

It is not meant to be another locus for grandstanding.

People may have good points to make on either side, but they can be made with care and consideration.

At heart, that's what the issue itself was about.

M.

Your selection of the word "murder" set the tone of the thread.  "Killing" might have sent it in a different direction.  Perhaps the best thread would have been "An Appreciation of George Floyd by People Who Knew Him," which would have remained mercifully blank on these fora.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on August 09, 2020, 10:50:33 AM
Got it.

It's all my fault.

One can't expect adult conversation over controversial topics; one should just softpedal issues to avoid anything uncomfortable.

Maybe I should just ask for the thread to be taken down.

...but that's just giving into the bad actors.

So it stays, but I mourn the consideration and thoughtfulness that might have been.

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on August 09, 2020, 02:02:15 PM
Given that his death is being treated as a murder, and people involved in it have been charged with murder, it's entirely appropriate, at this juncture, to characterize his death as a murder.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: writingprof on August 09, 2020, 05:56:25 PM
Given that his death is being treated as a murder, and people involved in it have been charged with murder, it's entirely appropriate, at this juncture, to characterize his death as a murder.

The phrase "is being treated as" is doing some heavy lifting there, boss.  How about, "Given that treating his death as a murder serves important political interests"?

As for your second phrase, will his death stop being a murder when Chauvin et al. are acquitted? 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on August 09, 2020, 07:41:43 PM

The phrase "is being treated as" is doing some heavy lifting there, boss.  How about, "Given that treating his death as a murder serves important political interests"?

As for your second phrase, will his death stop being a murder when Chauvin et al. are acquitted?

'Is being treated as' corresponds to the charging documents. And to the classification of his death.

But yes, unless his death does not get reclassified as a result.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 10, 2020, 03:39:48 AM

The phrase "is being treated as" is doing some heavy lifting there, boss.  How about, "Given that treating his death as a murder serves important political interests"?

As for your second phrase, will his death stop being a murder when Chauvin et al. are acquitted?

'Is being treated as' corresponds to the charging documents. And to the classification of his death.

But yes, unless his death does not get reclassified as a result.

So 'innocent until proven guilty' is strictly how the law works, with no expectation that society gives any weight to it?

A little perspective: Chauvin is fired, so he won't be doing what he did any more. Yet people are clamoring for him to spend the rest of his life in jail. I can't think of any reason Derek Chauvin, in particular, should spend the rest of his life in jail for a very bad day at work in which he did his job using one of the the options for which he was trained. Can you?

Yes.  Murder.  Police brutality. 

These assume that George Floyd died because of excessive pressure on his neck applied by Derek Chauvin. But as I indicated above, that is based on the assumption that the pressure was what caused the respiratory problems. Since the respiratory problems preceeded the events outside the police car, the breathing problems themselves are not solid evidence of how much pressure was being applied to George Floyd's neck.

I have no medical training, so I have no idea whether the pre-existing health conditions and the drug use would have been likely to produce respiratory failure without any external pressure on his windpipe. That's a question that needs to be answered, and it has to be answered by someone who's not an advocate for either side in this situation.

That question has nothing to do with bigotry, or support (or lack thereof) for the police; it's a scientific question that needs to be addressed so that this case can come to some sort of objective resolution.

(And, even if the evidence ultimately supports the conclusion of police brutality, that does not in and of itself answer the question of whether it was racially-motivated.)


That's the other question that has recently become accepted to be taboo. It's considered racist to wonder if Chauvin may be just a meanie (as Glenn Lourie has). Inconsistencies don't matter. One of the four is African American, and now his friends have turned against him. These realities may be drearily disappointing among average folks, but striking when you see them in academics, who are supposed to be trained to insist on evidence.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: ergative on August 10, 2020, 04:48:05 AM

So 'innocent until proven guilty' is strictly how the law works, with no expectation that society gives any weight to it?


I mean, yeah.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 10, 2020, 06:47:42 AM

So 'innocent until proven guilty' is strictly how the law works, with no expectation that society gives any weight to it?


I mean, yeah.

Here's your trophy for endorsing things like that. Lisa Durden was fired for her harsh comments against white people who objected to a blacks only event on campus. The law of the land is she has the rights to free speech, but she didn't have tenure, so she can just go fuck off. What do we care what's in the constitution?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Durden

Of course, thanks to George Floyd, Derek Chauvin and co. we've had a cultural revolution since then so they wouldn't dare firing Durden for that now. So I guess you guys are winning for now.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: spork on August 11, 2020, 05:04:12 PM
African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.

New York Times analysis of newly-released video:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/george-floyd-body-cam-full-video.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/george-floyd-body-cam-full-video.html).

In my non-legally binding opinion, Floyd would almost certainly be alive today if he had not had an encounter with the police. The entire episode is a total fuck-up by the officers involved from start to finish.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: pigou on August 11, 2020, 05:54:15 PM
Abstracting away from this particular instance, it just doesn't strike me as a reasonable measure to kneel on someone's neck or generally to apply this level of force to take someone into custody, especially over a non-violent offense. That is, this would have been a mistake had he survived and it would have been a mistake had he died of entirely natural causes.

Less aggressive methods would put more officers at risk, but the key difference is that police get paid to take on the risks of the job. Civilians who are subject to the use of force by police do not (and the ability to sue the city by the family is much more constrained). So if changes in policing tactics make it more likely that officers get injured or killed in the line of duty, we can compensate them for the extra risk by paying them more. This happens all the time in the private sector: some jobs are more dangerous than others that require the same qualifications, and so people who do them get paid more.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: dismalist on August 11, 2020, 08:25:55 PM
African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.


This is true when police killings are compared to population sizes. It is not true when killings are compared to the crime rates of the relevant populations. Looks like whites, not blacks, are killed at a greater rate than their population size would indicate.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 11, 2020, 09:20:34 PM
African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.


This is true when police killings are compared to population sizes. It is not true when killings are compared to the crime rates of the relevant populations. Looks like whites, not blacks, are killed at a greater rate than their population size would indicate.

Killing a white perpetrator would not make the national news unless there are unusual things about the encounter. Police like colleges have to worry about damaging publicity.

African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.

New York Times analysis of newly-released video:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/george-floyd-body-cam-full-video.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/george-floyd-body-cam-full-video.html).

In my non-legally binding opinion, Floyd would almost certainly be alive today if he had not had an encounter with the police. The entire episode is a total fuck-up by the officers involved from start to finish.

They are shown saying things like 'get your fucking hands on the wheel' early in the encounter, which is not deescalating, but is combative and unprofessional. So whoever said they might have deescalated more effectively was right about that, to that extent, I would agree. And of course, the pinning him to the ground is suspect. And why didn't the ambulance arrive sooner?
I can read your post without getting my dander up because you have refrained from saying
(1) you accept my assessment or you're being racist
(2) middle-aged people who have advanced heart disease may take lethal doses of street drugs without danger
(3) Floyd was cooperative. He really wasn't, although he was a bit provoked.

It is hard to figure out from here, but your opinion and how you say it are worth listening to.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: ergative on August 12, 2020, 01:43:21 AM
African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.


This is true when police killings are compared to population sizes. It is not true when killings are compared to the crime rates of the relevant populations. Looks like whites, not blacks, are killed at a greater rate than their population size would indicate.

The problem with normalizing by crime rates is that the crime rates are determined by arrests and so on--and police absolutely do not patrol and arrest and detain white people and white neighborhoods at the same rates as black neighborhoods. The book Weapons of Math Destruction has a chapter about how this cycle perpetuates itself: black neighborhoods have more stops and searches, and so more drugs or whatever are found---even though people are using them at the same rates in white and black neighborhoods---which means that black neighborhoods are tagged as being more crime-ful, requiring more police patrols and searches, and so on.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: apl68 on August 12, 2020, 07:31:56 AM
Chicago is now experiencing rioting and looting triggered by an incident in which police shot a man who had fired at them first.  What's most disturbing about this is that the local BLM has rallied in support of those arrested for looting.  One BLM organizer described the loot as "reparations."

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/black-lives-matter-holds-rally-supporting-individuals-arrested-in-chicago-looting-monday/2320365/

If we have much more of this sort of thing in other cities, it is going to significantly improve President Trump's currently dwindling chances of reelection.  Which would constitute a mammoth own goal score by BLM.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 12, 2020, 08:26:27 AM
African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.


This is true when police killings are compared to population sizes. It is not true when killings are compared to the crime rates of the relevant populations. Looks like whites, not blacks, are killed at a greater rate than their population size would indicate.

The problem with normalizing by crime rates is that the crime rates are determined by arrests and so on--and police absolutely do not patrol and arrest and detain white people and white neighborhoods at the same rates as black neighborhoods. The book Weapons of Math Destruction has a chapter about how this cycle perpetuates itself: black neighborhoods have more stops and searches, and so more drugs or whatever are found---even though people are using them at the same rates in white and black neighborhoods---which means that black neighborhoods are tagged as being more crime-ful, requiring more police patrols and searches, and so on.

Hmm...how many white people drive into black neighborhoods to buy their drugs, then go back to their safe suburban home for party time. That would be a 'white guilt' that has a reason.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on August 12, 2020, 08:52:20 AM
African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.


This is true when police killings are compared to population sizes. It is not true when killings are compared to the crime rates of the relevant populations. Looks like whites, not blacks, are killed at a greater rate than their population size would indicate.

The problem with normalizing by crime rates is that the crime rates are determined by arrests and so on--and police absolutely do not patrol and arrest and detain white people and white neighborhoods at the same rates as black neighborhoods. The book Weapons of Math Destruction has a chapter about how this cycle perpetuates itself: black neighborhoods have more stops and searches, and so more drugs or whatever are found---even though people are using them at the same rates in white and black neighborhoods---which means that black neighborhoods are tagged as being more crime-ful, requiring more police patrols and searches, and so on.

Hmm...how many white people drive into black neighborhoods to buy their drugs, then go back to their safe suburban home for party time. That would be a 'white guilt' that has a reason.

This suggests that white gangs and criminal organizations should be much more successful than black ones, since the lower enforcement in white neighbourhoods should give them much more freedom to operate. Eventually the black organizations should pretty much be eliminated since they won't be able to compete. (And it will be safer for black people to go to white neighbourhoods to buy their drugs.)

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on August 12, 2020, 09:02:17 AM
Readers who are in law enforcement would know better than me, but my guess would be there are more sales to be made quicker by concentrating your operation in an urban area.
I had a black friend years ago, now deceased, elderly. He said 'every morning when I walk the dog I see the dope dealers. I know all of them. I say hello to them.' Good thing he had the dog.  And he always dressed in old funky clothes. I knew he could afford nice clothes.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: writingprof on August 12, 2020, 09:32:44 AM
Hmm...how many white people drive into black neighborhoods to buy their drugs, then go back to their safe suburban home for party time. That would be a 'white guilt' that has a reason.

I don't know. White people are so woke now that it wouldn't occur to most of us to look for drugs in a black neighborhood. That's profiling!
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: dismalist on August 12, 2020, 10:44:03 AM
African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.


This is true when police killings are compared to population sizes. It is not true when killings are compared to the crime rates of the relevant populations. Looks like whites, not blacks, are killed at a greater rate than their population size would indicate.

The problem with normalizing by crime rates is that the crime rates are determined by arrests and so on--and police absolutely do not patrol and arrest and detain white people and white neighborhoods at the same rates as black neighborhoods. The book Weapons of Math Destruction has a chapter about how this cycle perpetuates itself: black neighborhoods have more stops and searches, and so more drugs or whatever are found---even though people are using them at the same rates in white and black neighborhoods---which means that black neighborhoods are tagged as being more crime-ful, requiring more police patrols and searches, and so on.

The vast majority of police time is allocated by 911 calls. Thus, it's people in black neighborhoods who are calling for help.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 12, 2020, 02:08:43 PM
African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.


This is true when police killings are compared to population sizes. It is not true when killings are compared to the crime rates of the relevant populations. Looks like whites, not blacks, are killed at a greater rate than their population size would indicate.

The problem with normalizing by crime rates is that the crime rates are determined by arrests and so on--and police absolutely do not patrol and arrest and detain white people and white neighborhoods at the same rates as black neighborhoods. The book Weapons of Math Destruction has a chapter about how this cycle perpetuates itself: black neighborhoods have more stops and searches, and so more drugs or whatever are found---even though people are using them at the same rates in white and black neighborhoods---which means that black neighborhoods are tagged as being more crime-ful, requiring more police patrols and searches, and so on.

The vast majority of police time is allocated by 911 calls. Thus, it's people in black neighborhoods who are calling for help.

Do you have a source for this? Curious, as that is not what I would have thought at all.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: dismalist on August 12, 2020, 04:05:15 PM
Yeah. I got the very sentence from here https://theintercept.com/2019/01/31/arrests-policing-vera-institute-of-justice/ (https://theintercept.com/2019/01/31/arrests-policing-vera-institute-of-justice/), near the bottom. The article sympathetically  cites the Vera Institute, which is highly critical of current policing methods. The same statement is made by Heather MacDonald in her The War on Cops. In my googling I have not found underlying data, but have found descriptions of how NYC allocates police, and it is by 911 calls https://www.givingcompass.org/article/improving-the-allocation-of-police-officers/ (https://www.givingcompass.org/article/improving-the-allocation-of-police-officers/).
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 12, 2020, 04:36:29 PM
Yeah. I got the very sentence from here https://theintercept.com/2019/01/31/arrests-policing-vera-institute-of-justice/ (https://theintercept.com/2019/01/31/arrests-policing-vera-institute-of-justice/), near the bottom. The article sympathetically  cites the Vera Institute, which is highly critical of current policing methods. The same statement is made by Heather MacDonald in her The War on Cops. In my googling I have not found underlying data, but have found descriptions of how NYC allocates police, and it is by 911 calls https://www.givingcompass.org/article/improving-the-allocation-of-police-officers/ (https://www.givingcompass.org/article/improving-the-allocation-of-police-officers/).

Thanks! The reason I was skeptical (and still am somewhat) is the vast amount of police officers I see not responding to 911, but rather doing rather mundane things. I have no doubt that large cities are probably different from the vast majority of what officers do. I'll look more closely.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: dismalist on August 12, 2020, 04:46:03 PM
Yeah. I got the very sentence from here https://theintercept.com/2019/01/31/arrests-policing-vera-institute-of-justice/ (https://theintercept.com/2019/01/31/arrests-policing-vera-institute-of-justice/), near the bottom. The article sympathetically  cites the Vera Institute, which is highly critical of current policing methods. The same statement is made by Heather MacDonald in her The War on Cops. In my googling I have not found underlying data, but have found descriptions of how NYC allocates police, and it is by 911 calls https://www.givingcompass.org/article/improving-the-allocation-of-police-officers/ (https://www.givingcompass.org/article/improving-the-allocation-of-police-officers/).

Thanks! The reason I was skeptical (and still am somewhat) is the vast amount of police officers I see not responding to 911, but rather doing rather mundane things. I have no doubt that large cities are probably different from the vast majority of what officers do. I'll look more closely.

Cool!

What's at issue is whether crime rates higher among blacks than their share of the population is a "supply side" phenomenon, i.e. police behavior, or a "demand side" phenomenon, i.e. calls for help.

Aside from the direct call evidence from 911, we have the indirect evidence that blacks are far more likely to be victims of crime than their share of the population indicates! Hence, that they call for help more than indicated by their share of population, as most live in close proximity, stands to reason.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 12, 2020, 05:24:05 PM
Yeah. I got the very sentence from here https://theintercept.com/2019/01/31/arrests-policing-vera-institute-of-justice/ (https://theintercept.com/2019/01/31/arrests-policing-vera-institute-of-justice/), near the bottom. The article sympathetically  cites the Vera Institute, which is highly critical of current policing methods. The same statement is made by Heather MacDonald in her The War on Cops. In my googling I have not found underlying data, but have found descriptions of how NYC allocates police, and it is by 911 calls https://www.givingcompass.org/article/improving-the-allocation-of-police-officers/ (https://www.givingcompass.org/article/improving-the-allocation-of-police-officers/).

Thanks! The reason I was skeptical (and still am somewhat) is the vast amount of police officers I see not responding to 911, but rather doing rather mundane things. I have no doubt that large cities are probably different from the vast majority of what officers do. I'll look more closely.

Cool!

What's at issue is whether crime rates higher among blacks than their share of the population is a "supply side" phenomenon, i.e. police behavior, or a "demand side" phenomenon, i.e. calls for help.

Aside from the direct call evidence from 911, we have the indirect evidence that blacks are far more likely to be victims of crime than their share of the population indicates! Hence, that they call for help more than indicated by their share of population, as most live in close proximity, stands to reason.

Just started reading this report with 2011 data. It seems to indicate a more or less uniform distribution of calls by race: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rpa11.pdf
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: dismalist on August 12, 2020, 06:09:52 PM
Yeah. I got the very sentence from here https://theintercept.com/2019/01/31/arrests-policing-vera-institute-of-justice/ (https://theintercept.com/2019/01/31/arrests-policing-vera-institute-of-justice/), near the bottom. The article sympathetically  cites the Vera Institute, which is highly critical of current policing methods. The same statement is made by Heather MacDonald in her The War on Cops. In my googling I have not found underlying data, but have found descriptions of how NYC allocates police, and it is by 911 calls https://www.givingcompass.org/article/improving-the-allocation-of-police-officers/ (https://www.givingcompass.org/article/improving-the-allocation-of-police-officers/).

Thanks! The reason I was skeptical (and still am somewhat) is the vast amount of police officers I see not responding to 911, but rather doing rather mundane things. I have no doubt that large cities are probably different from the vast majority of what officers do. I'll look more closely.

Cool!

What's at issue is whether crime rates higher among blacks than their share of the population is a "supply side" phenomenon, i.e. police behavior, or a "demand side" phenomenon, i.e. calls for help.

Aside from the direct call evidence from 911, we have the indirect evidence that blacks are far more likely to be victims of crime than their share of the population indicates! Hence, that they call for help more than indicated by their share of population, as most live in close proximity, stands to reason.

Just started reading this report with 2011 data. It seems to indicate a more or less uniform distribution of calls by race: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rpa11.pdf



Wonderful source! But, ah, see Table 2: The share of whites and blacks calling the police in 2011 is indeed about the same, but the white population is three to four times the size of the black population!

Police are going where they're wanted.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 12, 2020, 07:11:46 PM
Yeah. I got the very sentence from here https://theintercept.com/2019/01/31/arrests-policing-vera-institute-of-justice/ (https://theintercept.com/2019/01/31/arrests-policing-vera-institute-of-justice/), near the bottom. The article sympathetically  cites the Vera Institute, which is highly critical of current policing methods. The same statement is made by Heather MacDonald in her The War on Cops. In my googling I have not found underlying data, but have found descriptions of how NYC allocates police, and it is by 911 calls https://www.givingcompass.org/article/improving-the-allocation-of-police-officers/ (https://www.givingcompass.org/article/improving-the-allocation-of-police-officers/).

Thanks! The reason I was skeptical (and still am somewhat) is the vast amount of police officers I see not responding to 911, but rather doing rather mundane things. I have no doubt that large cities are probably different from the vast majority of what officers do. I'll look more closely.

Cool!

What's at issue is whether crime rates higher among blacks than their share of the population is a "supply side" phenomenon, i.e. police behavior, or a "demand side" phenomenon, i.e. calls for help.

Aside from the direct call evidence from 911, we have the indirect evidence that blacks are far more likely to be victims of crime than their share of the population indicates! Hence, that they call for help more than indicated by their share of population, as most live in close proximity, stands to reason.

Just started reading this report with 2011 data. It seems to indicate a more or less uniform distribution of calls by race: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rpa11.pdf



Wonderful source! But, ah, see Table 2: The share of whites and blacks calling the police in 2011 is indeed about the same, but the white population is three to four times the size of the black population!

Police are going where they're wanted.

No, those are proportions. That is why I said it is a uniform distribution in terms of conditional probabilities.

13% of the population made a 911 call. Then it shows you percentages broken down by race.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: dismalist on August 12, 2020, 07:32:11 PM
Yes, but there is no mention of population shares in the article.

Over and out.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 13, 2020, 05:58:57 AM
Yes, but there is no mention of population shares in the article.

Over and out.

You can be over and out, but it is still the case the data are PROPORTIONAL, so population shares are factored out. Just look at the Male-Female data.

Blacks were calling 911 at roughly a 13% rate, just as the other listed races.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: dismalist on August 13, 2020, 11:13:53 AM
Yes, but there is no mention of population shares in the article.

Over and out.

You can be over and out, but it is still the case the data are PROPORTIONAL, so population shares are factored out. Just look at the Male-Female data.

Blacks were calling 911 at roughly a 13% rate, just as the other listed races.

Damn! You're right.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 13, 2020, 11:51:47 AM
Yes, but there is no mention of population shares in the article.

Over and out.

You can be over and out, but it is still the case the data are PROPORTIONAL, so population shares are factored out. Just look at the Male-Female data.

Blacks were calling 911 at roughly a 13% rate, just as the other listed races.

Damn! You're right.

I set a low bar for myself. Right at least once per week. I just met this week's goal.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: spork on December 14, 2020, 05:09:07 AM
Returning home while Black:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/14/us/casey-goodson-columbus-ohio-shooting.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/14/us/casey-goodson-columbus-ohio-shooting.html).
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on December 14, 2020, 06:17:32 AM
Returning home while Black:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/14/us/casey-goodson-columbus-ohio-shooting.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/14/us/casey-goodson-columbus-ohio-shooting.html).

Here's how ridiculous this has gotten:
Quote
Much about the shooting death of Casey Goodson Jr. by a sheriff’s deputy has been disputed — what led to it, why it happened and where exactly on his body Mr. Goodson was shot.

How can there possibly be uncertainty about where on his body he was shot? Did he get instantly cremated?????
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on December 14, 2020, 07:35:57 AM
Ugh...please.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Descartes on December 14, 2020, 11:07:57 AM
Nope, I've been burned before. 

I initially believed that Michael Brown was killed by a cop who, from what was being reported, failed to properly de-escalate after the threat and time for deadly force had passed.

After all the facts came out it turned out to be a completely righteous (legally and morally) shooting, supported by testimony from several black residents who witnessed the events and testified to the grand jury that Brown was the aggressor, never retreated, and never placed his hands up and said "don't shoot."  All of that was made up by Brown's friend.

I'll wait to decide whether this person was killed "returning home with a sandwich" until we get all of the details - however long that may take.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on December 14, 2020, 11:48:41 AM
Nope, I've been burned before. 

I initially believed that Michael Brown was killed by a cop who, from what was being reported, failed to properly de-escalate after the threat and time for deadly force had passed.

After all the facts came out it turned out to be a completely righteous (legally and morally) shooting, supported by testimony from several black residents who witnessed the events and testified to the grand jury that Brown was the aggressor, never retreated, and never placed his hands up and said "don't shoot."  All of that was made up by Brown's friend.

I'll wait to decide whether this person was killed "returning home with a sandwich" until we get all of the details - however long that may take.

But that's my point; many facts may be hard to determine after the fact, but where the bullets are on the body should be pretty objectively established unless the body has been cremated. Calling this "disputed" suggests it isn't possible to be certain. It looks like just lousy "journalism" if that's the case.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on December 15, 2020, 05:48:04 AM
Nope, I've been burned before. 

I initially believed that Michael Brown was killed by a cop who, from what was being reported, failed to properly de-escalate after the threat and time for deadly force had passed.

After all the facts came out it turned out to be a completely righteous (legally and morally) shooting, supported by testimony from several black residents who witnessed the events and testified to the grand jury that Brown was the aggressor, never retreated, and never placed his hands up and said "don't shoot."  All of that was made up by Brown's friend.

I'll wait to decide whether this person was killed "returning home with a sandwich" until we get all of the details - however long that may take.

But that's my point; many facts may be hard to determine after the fact, but where the bullets are on the body should be pretty objectively established unless the body has been cremated. Calling this "disputed" suggests it isn't possible to be certain. It looks like just lousy "journalism" if that's the case.

Police are not releasing any information at this time. There's investigating going on at federal level now. Wait and see. We don't need to be discussing cremation do we? Things are unpleasant enough. Thanks.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on January 31, 2021, 10:53:50 AM
Tangentially related: Jay Pharaoh (my favorite impressionist performing today, top-notch) tells of being detained with knee on neck in LA while jogging.) It think part of the problem with mistaken identity is black faces look more similar to other black faces to many police than white faces look similar to other white faces*. I don't know what to do about it. Many urban crimes are going unsolved; residents are probably afraid to identify perps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV5KpbUPeSU

*while it is considered a racist utterance to admit this about oneself.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on February 06, 2021, 06:06:43 PM
Chauvin had a history of using excessive force:

   https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/before-george-floyd-officer-derek-chauvin-had-a-history-of-using-excessive-force

People who didn't know he had been their arresting officer were surprised to find out it could have been them.

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on February 06, 2021, 07:08:02 PM
I suspect he still won't be convicted because there is reasonable doubt. The suspect was intoxicated with drugs used for anesthesia and had advanced heart disease.
 But one wouldn't be surprised that he was called to the scene. The suspect being 6'7" and somewhat out of control; the two rookie cops were struggling to get things in order. Chauvin was used to these things.
Re: Chauvin's history - police write bullshit incident reports and cover up for each other. Happens all the time. Or forget to fill them out at all, avoiding the paper trail. They have strong unions, and the unions being well funded, they contribute well to politicians' campaigns. They get to keep things out of our view. We are being held victim to corruption.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: ciao_yall on February 06, 2021, 08:59:25 PM
Worth a read.

https://www.economist.com/obituary/2020/06/04/george-floyd-was-killed-on-may-25th
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on February 06, 2021, 09:44:41 PM
Worth a read.

https://www.economist.com/obituary/2020/06/04/george-floyd-was-killed-on-may-25th

I got all the way through the article. They couldn't resist playing the race card at the end.
 "He possibly never knew that this was the same white guy with jittery eyes who had worked at El Nuevo Rodeo, the one so ready with the pepper spray to keep the blacks in line. ■"  OK, Chauvin may be a meanie. Many bouncers are. Was he also a home invader and a peddler of street drugs? What would his friends write about him? No one knows.
 See, we've got enough trouble without someone always making it about race. De-escalate.  It's not a hard concept.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on February 07, 2021, 07:00:06 AM
OK, Chauvin may be a meanie. Many bouncers are. Was he also a home invader and a peddler of street drugs? What would his friends write about him? No one knows.


He's a murderer. He's a fraudster. He delights in violent confrontations. He's abusive (as evidenced by the unusually large number of complaints against him). He shoots a lot of people. He is suspiciously rich. He's a bad cop. He should not be a police officer. He should not be roaming the streets.


I'll leave it, now.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on February 07, 2021, 07:13:46 AM
OK, Chauvin may be a meanie. Many bouncers are. Was he also a home invader and a peddler of street drugs? What would his friends write about him? No one knows.


He's a murderer. He's a fraudster. He delights in violent confrontations. He's abusive (as evidenced by the unusually large number of complaints against him). He shoots a lot of people. He is suspiciously rich. He's a bad cop. He should not be a police officer. He should not be roaming the streets.


I'll leave it, now.

Well, he's not a police officer. He was fired for the incident. He's not a convicted murderer yet.
Plenty of Americans delight in violent confrontations, at least as spectators. It makes me sick, but it's a fact.
And I suppose Floyd was a 'gentle giant?' Sure, just ask his mom (although she admitted he was a handful). And he was a good father 'when he was around.' And he moved to Minneapolis to get his life together. Read the liberal media with big grain of salt.

on edit: Here it is: "The Houston music scene drew him, too; he was “Big Floyd” in a group that backed DJ Screw, a legendary hip-hop dj, inventor of a new remix technique of slowing tracks down and playing the same track on different turntables (“chopped-and-screwed”, hence the “Screw”). Best of all, he met attractive women, by several of whom he had children. He was a good father while he was around."

That's some deft writing. I've never heard being a dead beat dad turned into an accomplishment.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: spork on April 09, 2021, 09:51:15 AM
Given the trial testimony so far, I'd be very surprised if Chauvin is not convicted of a murder charge. The defense has no defense. 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: apl68 on April 09, 2021, 10:28:06 AM
Given the trial testimony so far, I'd be very surprised if Chauvin is not convicted of a murder charge. The defense has no defense.

Though police shootings often involve a lot of rush to judgement, this one has seemed very open-and-shut from the start. 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 09, 2021, 10:59:35 AM
Given the trial testimony so far, I'd be very surprised if Chauvin is not convicted of a murder charge. The defense has no defense.

Though police shootings often involve a lot of rush to judgement, this one has seemed very open-and-shut from the start.

The one thing that made me go "Wait! What?" was the video from inside the police car, before George Floyd was on the ground, and with no restraints on his chest, throat, or face, where he's already saying "I can't breathe." Since I'm not a doctor, I have no idea how severe the respiratory problems might have been due to the drugs and pre-existing health conditions. Until I saw that video I was as convinced as anyone else that the only cause of his suffocation was Chauvin. I'd like to hear from medical experts that have no axe to grind either way how serious the breathing problems were likely to have been before Chauvin got involved.





Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: spork on April 09, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
Given the trial testimony so far, I'd be very surprised if Chauvin is not convicted of a murder charge. The defense has no defense.

Though police shootings often involve a lot of rush to judgement, this one has seemed very open-and-shut from the start.

The one thing that made me go "Wait! What?" was the video from inside the police car, before George Floyd was on the ground, and with no restraints on his chest, throat, or face, where he's already saying "I can't breathe." Since I'm not a doctor, I have no idea how severe the respiratory problems might have been due to the drugs and pre-existing health conditions. Until I saw that video I was as convinced as anyone else that the only cause of his suffocation was Chauvin. I'd like to hear from medical experts that have no axe to grind either way how serious the breathing problems were likely to have been before Chauvin got involved.

Are you referring to this police body cam video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPSwqp5fdIw&t=320s&ab_channel=DailyMail), in which George Floyd is recorded saying things like "Please don't shoot me," "I have claustrophobia for real . . . please stay with me," "I'm not that kind of guy," "I'm gonna die, man," and "I'm going in [the police car], ok, I'm not trying to win"? When Floyd says "I can't breathe" inside the police car, his upper body is not visible in the video and he appears to be bent over or face down (handcuffed wrists are visible) until right before he says "I wanna lay on the ground." He is emotionally agitated, physically non-compliant, or whatever a person might want to call it, but the way he's being treated verbally and physically in the video is at best really sloppy behavior by the four police officers on the scene.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 09, 2021, 12:02:58 PM
Though police shootings often involve a lot of rush to judgement, this one has seemed very open-and-shut from the start.

The one thing that made me go "Wait! What?" was the video from inside the police car, before George Floyd was on the ground, and with no restraints on his chest, throat, or face, where he's already saying "I can't breathe." Since I'm not a doctor, I have no idea how severe the respiratory problems might have been due to the drugs and pre-existing health conditions. Until I saw that video I was as convinced as anyone else that the only cause of his suffocation was Chauvin. I'd like to hear from medical experts that have no axe to grind either way how serious the breathing problems were likely to have been before Chauvin got involved.

Are you referring to this police body cam video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPSwqp5fdIw&t=320s&ab_channel=DailyMail), in which George Floyd is recorded saying things like "Please don't shoot me," "I have claustrophobia for real . . . please stay with me," "I'm not that kind of guy," "I'm gonna die, man," and "I'm going in [the police car], ok, I'm not trying to win"? When Floyd says "I can't breathe" inside the police car, his upper body is not visible in the video and he appears to be bent over or face down (handcuffed wrists are visible) until right before he says "I wanna lay on the ground." He is emotionally agitated, physically non-compliant, or whatever a person might want to call it, but the way he's being treated verbally and physically in the video is at best really sloppy behavior by the four police officers on the scene.

Yes, that's it. He asked to lay on the ground. How much of that was the police presence/actions, and how much was the drugs? Someone with more expertise (and no vested interest) needs to evaluate that.
 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 09, 2021, 12:10:05 PM
I'm not a medical doctor, but I'm pretty sure that if someone is having trouble breathing, the prescribed course of treatment is not kneeling on their neck for nine minutes.

If it is, they didn't tell us about it in my most recent CPR course.


EDIT: Just to be clear, I think that if you accept the premise that he was having trouble breathing beforehand and he asked to lie on the ground, that actually makes things worse for Chauvin.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: spork on April 09, 2021, 12:13:02 PM
He's conscious, verbally responsive, and non-violent in the video. Medical experts have testified at the trial that "the drugs" weren't an issue.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 09, 2021, 12:31:26 PM
I'm not a medical doctor, but I'm pretty sure that if someone is having trouble breathing, the prescribed course of treatment is not kneeling on their neck for nine minutes.

If it is, they didn't tell us about it in my most recent CPR course.


EDIT: Just to be clear, I think that if you accept the premise that he was having trouble breathing beforehand and he asked to lie on the ground, that actually makes things worse for Chauvin.

The point is that the main evidence for how much pressure Chauvin was applying to George Floyd's neck was the trouble George Floyd had in breathing. If he was having serious breathing problems before, it's not a reliable indicator of how much force was being applied.

There are professionals (stunt people, fight co-ordinators) who make a career out of making relatively safe actions appear highly dangerous or even lethal. The point is that how dangerous or painful a situation appears to be in the view of an observer is not the same thing as how dangerous or painful it is to the person experiencing it, and that can go in either direction.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 09, 2021, 12:47:42 PM
I'm not a medical doctor, but I'm pretty sure that if someone is having trouble breathing, the prescribed course of treatment is not kneeling on their neck for nine minutes.

If it is, they didn't tell us about it in my most recent CPR course.


EDIT: Just to be clear, I think that if you accept the premise that he was having trouble breathing beforehand and he asked to lie on the ground, that actually makes things worse for Chauvin.

The point is that the main evidence for how much pressure Chauvin was applying to George Floyd's neck was the trouble George Floyd had in breathing. If he was having serious breathing problems before, it's not a reliable indicator of how much force was being applied.

There are professionals (stunt people, fight co-ordinators) who make a career out of making relatively safe actions appear highly dangerous or even lethal. The point is that how dangerous or painful a situation appears to be in the view of an observer is not the same thing as how dangerous or painful it is to the person experiencing it, and that can go in either direction.

If he was having serious problems before, then refusing aid and instead doing something that increased the problem is not particularly helpful to Chauvin's case.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 09, 2021, 12:52:44 PM
I'm not a medical doctor, but I'm pretty sure that if someone is having trouble breathing, the prescribed course of treatment is not kneeling on their neck for nine minutes.

If it is, they didn't tell us about it in my most recent CPR course.


EDIT: Just to be clear, I think that if you accept the premise that he was having trouble breathing beforehand and he asked to lie on the ground, that actually makes things worse for Chauvin.

The point is that the main evidence for how much pressure Chauvin was applying to George Floyd's neck was the trouble George Floyd had in breathing. If he was having serious breathing problems before, it's not a reliable indicator of how much force was being applied.

There are professionals (stunt people, fight co-ordinators) who make a career out of making relatively safe actions appear highly dangerous or even lethal. The point is that how dangerous or painful a situation appears to be in the view of an observer is not the same thing as how dangerous or painful it is to the person experiencing it, and that can go in either direction.

If he was having serious problems before, then refusing aid and instead doing something that increased the problem is not particularly helpful to Chauvin's case.

If Chauvin could tell the complaints were legitimate, I agree. If he thought they were just attempts to get attention from bystanders, (i.e. that the problem wasn't real), then he wouldn't have thought any aid was required.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: jimbogumbo on April 09, 2021, 12:57:09 PM
Given the trial testimony so far, I'd be very surprised if Chauvin is not convicted of a murder charge. The defense has no defense.

Though police shootings often involve a lot of rush to judgement, this one has seemed very open-and-shut from the start.

Testimony from the physician who performed the autopsy: https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/derek-chauvin-trial-04-09-21/h_03cda59afac6532a0fb8ed48244e44a0

The one thing that made me go "Wait! What?" was the video from inside the police car, before George Floyd was on the ground, and with no restraints on his chest, throat, or face, where he's already saying "I can't breathe." Since I'm not a doctor, I have no idea how severe the respiratory problems might have been due to the drugs and pre-existing health conditions. Until I saw that video I was as convinced as anyone else that the only cause of his suffocation was Chauvin. I'd like to hear from medical experts that have no axe to grind either way how serious the breathing problems were likely to have been before Chauvin got involved.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: jimbogumbo on April 09, 2021, 01:25:52 PM
More detail (not the doctor in the video at the Top of the page-the medical examiner): https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/09/us/derek-chauvin-trial-george-floyd-day-10/index.html
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 09, 2021, 02:18:32 PM
I wonder how many Minnesotans were mugged or burglarized by George Floyd during his career and then also contributed to the $27 million settlement that went to his family and their lawyers, and will be walking past some sort of public monument to him on their way to work.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: apl68 on April 09, 2021, 02:50:06 PM
I wonder how many Minnesotans were mugged or burglarized by George Floyd during his career and then also contributed to the $27 million settlement that went to his family and their lawyers, and will be walking past some sort of public monument to him on their way to work.

Mahagonny, you've got to let this go.  George Floyd seems to have been a sorry excuse for a human being, but the police in this country don't have the authority to kill sorry excuses for human beings through egregious use of excessive force.  That's what is at issue in this trial.  That and sending a clear message that bad cops like Derek Chauvin need to be identified and fired before their misbehavior goes as far as actually killing somebody.

I get it.  You're annoyed that somebody like George Floyd is being venerated in some circles as a martyr.  You're annoyed by some of the extremes of rhetoric that have been voiced around the case.  Frankly I am too.

But you know what?  All this wouldn't have happened if Derek Chauvin's superiors had been on the ball and had booted him from the force before things went this far.  If he can be seen to get his just desserts, and police forces around the country can be seen to have learned something from the whole debacle, then we'll be less likely to see crooks-turned-martyrs and intemperate anti-police rhetoric in the future.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: pgher on April 09, 2021, 06:57:19 PM
There are no perfect victims. But passing a fake $20 is not a capital offense, and if it were, police on the street do not have the authority to be judge, jury, and executioner.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 09, 2021, 07:38:39 PM
I wonder how many Minnesotans were mugged or burglarized by George Floyd during his career and then also contributed to the $27 million settlement that went to his family and their lawyers, and will be walking past some sort of public monument to him on their way to work.

Mahagonny, you've got to let this go.  George Floyd seems to have been a sorry excuse for a human being, but the police in this country don't have the authority to kill sorry excuses for human beings through egregious use of excessive force.  That's what is at issue in this trial.  That and sending a clear message that bad cops like Derek Chauvin need to be identified and fired before their misbehavior goes as far as actually killing somebody.

I get it.  You're annoyed that somebody like George Floyd is being venerated in some circles as a martyr.  You're annoyed by some of the extremes of rhetoric that have been voiced around the case.  Frankly I am too.

But you know what?  All this wouldn't have happened if Derek Chauvin's superiors had been on the ball and had booted him from the force before things went this far.  If he can be seen to get his just desserts, and police forces around the country can be seen to have learned something from the whole debacle, then we'll be less likely to see crooks-turned-martyrs and intemperate anti-police rhetoric in the future.

Or the whole thing wouldn't have happened if the media cared about white victims of police brutality. Because there have been many over the years, and no one knows who they are. The change you hope for is not incidence of police brutality driven. It's media-loves-racism-stories driven. 
I can let it go, but the annoyance with the media coverage of the whole thing  is going to quietly continue within middle America. And the willfully polarizing antics of the NYT, CNN et al will continue. Most of the media coverage after the verdict will be in step with just more iterations of the bullying 'no one may state that "all lives matter. It is unacceptable; the correct pronouncement is Black Lives Matter"' And that will never improve race relations.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: apl68 on April 10, 2021, 06:44:57 AM
I wonder how many Minnesotans were mugged or burglarized by George Floyd during his career and then also contributed to the $27 million settlement that went to his family and their lawyers, and will be walking past some sort of public monument to him on their way to work.

Mahagonny, you've got to let this go.  George Floyd seems to have been a sorry excuse for a human being, but the police in this country don't have the authority to kill sorry excuses for human beings through egregious use of excessive force.  That's what is at issue in this trial.  That and sending a clear message that bad cops like Derek Chauvin need to be identified and fired before their misbehavior goes as far as actually killing somebody.

I get it.  You're annoyed that somebody like George Floyd is being venerated in some circles as a martyr.  You're annoyed by some of the extremes of rhetoric that have been voiced around the case.  Frankly I am too.

But you know what?  All this wouldn't have happened if Derek Chauvin's superiors had been on the ball and had booted him from the force before things went this far.  If he can be seen to get his just desserts, and police forces around the country can be seen to have learned something from the whole debacle, then we'll be less likely to see crooks-turned-martyrs and intemperate anti-police rhetoric in the future.

Or the whole thing wouldn't have happened if the media cared about white victims of police brutality. Because there have been many over the years, and no one knows who they are. The change you hope for is not incidence of police brutality driven. It's media-loves-racism-stories driven. 
I can let it go, but the annoyance with the media coverage of the whole thing  is going to quietly continue within middle America. And the willfully polarizing antics of the NYT, CNN et al will continue. Most of the media coverage after the verdict will be in step with just more iterations of the bullying 'no one may state that "all lives matter. It is unacceptable; the correct pronouncement is Black Lives Matter"' And that will never improve race relations.

I'm inclined to agree with you there, actually.  But griping about it all the time isn't going to fix anything. 

I've always loved walking.  I walk for hours each week around the streets and parks of our town.  In my walks I am often annoyed at the trash I see everywhere.  We have some terrible litterbugs around here (I'm especially annoyed at the "Busch Bandit," who seems to have a regular weekend circuit where he tosses his beer cans around the neighborhood).  We also have a municipal government that lacks the funds to keep the streets cleaned up.

Years ago I finally came to the realization that my complaining about the trash and vexing myself over it was never going to help anything.  So I started picking up the trash myself.  At least one morning a week I make a point of carrying bags to clean up some of the streets that I regularly walk.  I've hauled hundreds of bags of trash out of the park over the years.  It's a never-ending job, but it definitely helps the park's and neighborhood's appearance, and not just for me.  Eventually the city even started to get serious about keeping the park cleaned up, so I no longer have as much work to do there.  Improvements do sometimes happen!

It's the same way with race relations.  I can't fix the nation's race problems.  I can't give black people a better deal in places where they still aren't getting a fair shake, and I can't fix the growing double standards that make every police offense against POC an international cause celebre while pretending that the routine black-on-white murders and rapes (I've known people victimized by both) don't even exist. 

Here's what I can do--and what you can do too.  I can treat people of other races and backgrounds the way I myself would want to be treated--you know, the Golden Rule thing that Jesus taught.  I can, in my role as a public servant, work to serve all segments of our community.  I can make friends with people of other races and hear how their lives are going (Maybe it's not as much of a challenge for me, since I grew up in a town and a school where white and black residents interacted on a daily basis.  That's a great way to learn that other people are just people, after all). 

And I can learn not to take offense all the time.  The black people who take such great offense over this and that feel that they have every bit as much reason to take offense as you do at the things that offend you.  You get tired of hearing them be offended.  Others get tired of hearing you be offended.  So let's give each other a break.  You and I can't control what they say, but we can control what we say.  I've spent a long time training myself not to take automatic offense at everything.  It makes life a lot better.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 10, 2021, 07:05:28 AM
Thank you apl68. I'll give it some thought.

I remain convinced that the woke and "antiracist" brigade need to be opposed, not merely ignored, because they are not merely a waste of time; rather, they are untrustworthy, fanatical and noxious. And notably enabled and/or promoted by higher ed culture.
Perhaps I can use some of your message along the way. I do need a way to feel better.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 10, 2021, 07:22:55 AM
I can't fix the nation's race problems.  I can't give black people a better deal in places where they still aren't getting a fair shake, and I can't fix the growing double standards that make every police offense against POC an international cause celebre while pretending that the routine black-on-white murders and rapes (I've known people victimized by both) don't even exist. 

Here's what I can do--and what you can do too.  I can treat people of other races and backgrounds the way I myself would want to be treated--you know, the Golden Rule thing that Jesus taught.  I can, in my role as a public servant, work to serve all segments of our community.  I can make friends with people of other races and hear how their lives are going (Maybe it's not as much of a challenge for me, since I grew up in a town and a school where white and black residents interacted on a daily basis.  That's a great way to learn that other people are just people, after all). 


I agree. In fact, I would say most people probably agree. That's what my mother taught me half a century ago, and that's what generations of people have been taught. The frustrating reality now if that the loudest voices of wokeness will claim that the Golden Rule isn't enough*. Being "non-racist" isn't sufficient; you must be "anti-racist". Those loudest voices of wokeness could be ignored as extremists were it not for the media and many academics who encourage them. Still, I believe that most people will indeed continue to try and apply the Golden Rule even as the extremists call them nasty names. My hope is that enough of the younger generation growing up in this see identity politics for the toxic, illogical, and counter-productive mess that it is and reject it. I've seen several smart, articulate young people from all kinds of "identities" who express this, which is encouraging.



*So literally Jesus wasn't good enough for them. I have heard woke people disparage MLK's "I have a dream" speech because being anti-racist requires judging people according to their skin colour.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 10, 2021, 07:37:10 AM
I can't fix the nation's race problems.  I can't give black people a better deal in places where they still aren't getting a fair shake, and I can't fix the growing double standards that make every police offense against POC an international cause celebre while pretending that the routine black-on-white murders and rapes (I've known people victimized by both) don't even exist. 

Here's what I can do--and what you can do too.  I can treat people of other races and backgrounds the way I myself would want to be treated--you know, the Golden Rule thing that Jesus taught.  I can, in my role as a public servant, work to serve all segments of our community.  I can make friends with people of other races and hear how their lives are going (Maybe it's not as much of a challenge for me, since I grew up in a town and a school where white and black residents interacted on a daily basis.  That's a great way to learn that other people are just people, after all). 


I agree. In fact, I would say most people probably agree. That's what my mother taught me half a century ago, and that's what generations of people have been taught. The frustrating reality now if that the loudest voices of wokeness will claim that the Golden Rule isn't enough*. Being "non-racist" isn't sufficient; you must be "anti-racist". Those loudest voices of wokeness could be ignored as extremists were it not for the media and many academics who encourage them. Still, I believe that most people will indeed continue to try and apply the Golden Rule even as the extremists call them nasty names. My hope is that enough of the younger generation growing up in this see identity politics for the toxic, illogical, and counter-productive mess that it is and reject it. I've seen several smart, articulate young people from all kinds of "identities" who express this, which is encouraging.


Well, as Fred Rogers would say, when calamity strikes, look around for the helpers. The people with competence and compassion. They always show up. In our times, I predict (hope?) it will be the young black conservative scholars who know how to speak calmly and with logical organization. (They certainly do it better than I can.) Of course you already know about Coleman Hughes (a pretty good jazz trombonist too, incidentally, and all around good guy.) Others will come along.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Langue_doc on April 10, 2021, 05:10:11 PM
mahagonny, please listen to apl68 and let this go. I agree with you that the mainstream media has been very selective in reporting incidents of police brutality as well as other race-related incidents. Anger is justified, but will not convert anyone to your way of thinking. The NYTimes has been egregiously and willfully suppressing incidents in NYC. When they report attacks on Asians they make it a point to describe the perpetrator as someone with mental problems or homeless and also forget to mention previous incidents where at least a couple of Asians were killed by being pushed onto the subway tracks just as the train was entering the station. Just let it go.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 10, 2021, 05:19:00 PM

I agree. In fact, I would say most people probably agree. That's what my mother taught me half a century ago, and that's what generations of people have been taught. The frustrating reality now if that the loudest voices of wokeness will claim that the Golden Rule isn't enough*. Being "non-racist" isn't sufficient; you must be "anti-racist". Those loudest voices of wokeness could be ignored as extremists were it not for the media and many academics who encourage them. Still, I believe that most people will indeed continue to try and apply the Golden Rule even as the extremists call them nasty names. My hope is that enough of the younger generation growing up in this see identity politics for the toxic, illogical, and counter-productive mess that it is and reject it. I've seen several smart, articulate young people from all kinds of "identities" who express this, which is encouraging.

From my perspective, I think the real problem is that far too many people--including, but not limited to, people on the right--seem to think that racism requires some kind of nasty, racist intention. And that belief isn't just obviously false, it's awfully self-serving.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 10, 2021, 05:33:47 PM

I agree. In fact, I would say most people probably agree. That's what my mother taught me half a century ago, and that's what generations of people have been taught. The frustrating reality now if that the loudest voices of wokeness will claim that the Golden Rule isn't enough*. Being "non-racist" isn't sufficient; you must be "anti-racist". Those loudest voices of wokeness could be ignored as extremists were it not for the media and many academics who encourage them. Still, I believe that most people will indeed continue to try and apply the Golden Rule even as the extremists call them nasty names. My hope is that enough of the younger generation growing up in this see identity politics for the toxic, illogical, and counter-productive mess that it is and reject it. I've seen several smart, articulate young people from all kinds of "identities" who express this, which is encouraging.

From my perspective, I think the real problem is that far too many people--including, but not limited to, people on the right--seem to think that racism requires some kind of nasty, racist intention. And that belief isn't just obviously false, it's awfully self-serving.

In law, an important principle is that of intent. To be found guilty of a crime, a person must have been able to form the intent. One person's actions may cause the death of another, but if there was no intent, then it won't be called "murder", and may even be deemed an accident rather than a crime depending on the circumstances. (In fact, in many accident situations, it would be considered a miscarriage of justice for the person to be punished, even if their actions resulted in someone else's death.)

Racism used to be used in the same way to describe specific animus based on race. To apply it any time someone feels they have been the victim of an injustice, even if no-one intended them harm, is to make the term virtually meaningless. Similarly, understanding it in that way means that being called "racist" isn't necessarily something to be concerned about, since it may have nothing to do with one's moral behaviour.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 10, 2021, 06:12:43 PM

I agree. In fact, I would say most people probably agree. That's what my mother taught me half a century ago, and that's what generations of people have been taught. The frustrating reality now if that the loudest voices of wokeness will claim that the Golden Rule isn't enough*. Being "non-racist" isn't sufficient; you must be "anti-racist". Those loudest voices of wokeness could be ignored as extremists were it not for the media and many academics who encourage them. Still, I believe that most people will indeed continue to try and apply the Golden Rule even as the extremists call them nasty names. My hope is that enough of the younger generation growing up in this see identity politics for the toxic, illogical, and counter-productive mess that it is and reject it. I've seen several smart, articulate young people from all kinds of "identities" who express this, which is encouraging.

From my perspective, I think the real problem is that far too many people--including, but not limited to, people on the right--seem to think that racism requires some kind of nasty, racist intention. And that belief isn't just obviously false, it's awfully self-serving.

So, for example, if black people in the US are committing violent crime against white people at a higher rate (given their percentage of the population) than white people commit violent crime against black people, even though there may be no clear evidence of racial animus involved in the assaults, muggings, break-ins, home invasions, rapes and homicides, then white people are suffering the effects of racism, by your definition, and you and your anti-racism allies are very concerned about this? Because if they are, I'm still waiting to hear about it.
[on edit] Or for example if it turns out that democratic party's campaign platform of building up the black victimhood narrative is actually harmful to the morale and self esteem of black America, that would also be racism, even without malicious intent? And it wouldn't be difficult at all to understand it as selfish.
These things are not even considered by the anti-racism movement. It's all just manifesto and blind fervor.

The 'anti-racist' movement doesn't look remotely like a serious effort to study and reduce the effects of racism, even when considered in the broader definition. While it intends to tap into our respect for principles of right and wrong as they apply to race. And as regards its conquest of academia through the diversity staff and expanding their role, and the resulting intimidation of anyone who doesn't 100% buy it, it's nothing but a power play. That's why I don't take it seriously. No, worse than that, that's why I consider it a menace.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Bbmaj7b5 on April 11, 2021, 05:27:01 AM

I agree. In fact, I would say most people probably agree. That's what my mother taught me half a century ago, and that's what generations of people have been taught. The frustrating reality now if that the loudest voices of wokeness will claim that the Golden Rule isn't enough*. Being "non-racist" isn't sufficient; you must be "anti-racist". Those loudest voices of wokeness could be ignored as extremists were it not for the media and many academics who encourage them. Still, I believe that most people will indeed continue to try and apply the Golden Rule even as the extremists call them nasty names. My hope is that enough of the younger generation growing up in this see identity politics for the toxic, illogical, and counter-productive mess that it is and reject it. I've seen several smart, articulate young people from all kinds of "identities" who express this, which is encouraging.

From my perspective, I think the real problem is that far too many people--including, but not limited to, people on the right--seem to think that racism requires some kind of nasty, racist intention. And that belief isn't just obviously false, it's awfully self-serving.

So, for example, if black people in the US are committing violent crime against white people at a higher rate (given their percentage of the population) than white people commit violent crime against black people, even though there may be no clear evidence of racial animus involved in the assaults, muggings, break-ins, home invasions, rapes and homicides, then white people are suffering the effects of racism, by your definition, and you and your anti-racism allies are very concerned about this? Because if they are, I'm still waiting to hear about it.
[on edit] Or for example if it turns out that democratic party's campaign platform of building up the black victimhood narrative is actually harmful to the morale and self esteem of black America, that would also be racism, even without malicious intent? And it wouldn't be difficult at all to understand it as selfish.
These things are not even considered by the anti-racism movement. It's all just manifesto and blind fervor.

The 'anti-racist' movement doesn't look remotely like a serious effort to study and reduce the effects of racism, even when considered in the broader definition. While it intends to tap into our respect for principles of right and wrong as they apply to race. And as regards its conquest of academia through the diversity staff and expanding their role, and the resulting intimidation of anyone who doesn't 100% buy it, it's nothing but a power play. That's why I don't take it seriously. No, worse than that, that's why I consider it a menace.

Guitar is a lovely hobby. You should pick it up.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Anselm on April 11, 2021, 07:01:51 PM
Can anyone estimate when this trial will end? 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 12, 2021, 05:31:06 AM
Here's a perspective from last summer:
The Untold Truth About Police Brutality (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCisvswNOwI)

It even includes suggestions for how to improve the lives of disadvantaged people near the end.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: nebo113 on April 12, 2021, 06:14:26 AM
Another black man killed by police in Twin Cities.  National Guard called out.  When will this end.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 12, 2021, 06:17:47 AM
Another black man killed by police in Twin Cities.  National Guard called out.  When will this end.
Here's a perspective from last summer:
The Untold Truth About Police Brutality (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCisvswNOwI)

It even includes suggestions for how to improve the lives of disadvantaged people near the end.

Here's a partial list of people who have given the exact same news and advice about the calamity caused by the dissolution of the black family:
Glenn Loury
Barack Obama
Shelby Steele
John McWhorter
Derrick Z. Jackson
Candace Owens
Walter E. Williams
Larry Elder
Thomas Sowell

And so there's one more name to add to the list. Why would the media listen to her when they've ignored all of the above and many more, not to mention their own day-to-day observation?
See, if black America improves their lives through individual action and responsibility, they become more conservative. Conservativism being a by-product of responsible living. And the democratic party loses voters.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: lightning on April 12, 2021, 04:42:20 PM
Another black man killed by police in Twin Cities.  National Guard called out.  When will this end.
Here's a perspective from last summer:
The Untold Truth About Police Brutality (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCisvswNOwI)

It even includes suggestions for how to improve the lives of disadvantaged people near the end.

Here's a partial list of people who have given the exact same news and advice about the calamity caused by the dissolution of the black family:
Glenn Loury
Barack Obama
Shelby Steele
John McWhorter
Derrick Z. Jackson
Candace Owens
Walter E. Williams
Larry Elder
Thomas Sowell

And so there's one more name to add to the list. Why would the media listen to her when they've ignored all of the above and many more, not to mention their own day-to-day observation?
See, if black America improves their lives through individual action and responsibility, they become more conservative. Conservativism being a by-product of responsible living. And the democratic party loses voters.

I agree. In fact, I would say most people probably agree. That's what my mother taught me half a century ago, and that's what generations of people have been taught. The frustrating reality now if that the loudest voices of wokeness will claim that the Golden Rule isn't enough*. Being "non-racist" isn't sufficient; you must be "anti-racist". Those loudest voices of wokeness could be ignored as extremists were it not for the media and many academics who encourage them. Still, I believe that most people will indeed continue to try and apply the Golden Rule even as the extremists call them nasty names. My hope is that enough of the younger generation growing up in this see identity politics for the toxic, illogical, and counter-productive mess that it is and reject it. I've seen several smart, articulate young people from all kinds of "identities" who express this, which is encouraging.

From my perspective, I think the real problem is that far too many people--including, but not limited to, people on the right--seem to think that racism requires some kind of nasty, racist intention. And that belief isn't just obviously false, it's awfully self-serving.

So, for example, if black people in the US are committing violent crime against white people at a higher rate (given their percentage of the population) than white people commit violent crime against black people, even though there may be no clear evidence of racial animus involved in the assaults, muggings, break-ins, home invasions, rapes and homicides, then white people are suffering the effects of racism, by your definition, and you and your anti-racism allies are very concerned about this? Because if they are, I'm still waiting to hear about it.
[on edit] Or for example if it turns out that democratic party's campaign platform of building up the black victimhood narrative is actually harmful to the morale and self esteem of black America, that would also be racism, even without malicious intent? And it wouldn't be difficult at all to understand it as selfish.
These things are not even considered by the anti-racism movement. It's all just manifesto and blind fervor.

The 'anti-racist' movement doesn't look remotely like a serious effort to study and reduce the effects of racism, even when considered in the broader definition. While it intends to tap into our respect for principles of right and wrong as they apply to race. And as regards its conquest of academia through the diversity staff and expanding their role, and the resulting intimidation of anyone who doesn't 100% buy it, it's nothing but a power play. That's why I don't take it seriously. No, worse than that, that's why I consider it a menace.

Guitar is a lovely hobby. You should pick it up.

Bbmaj7b5 makes a great suggestion, but if guitar doesn't do it for you, Mahagonny, fixing up old sports cars is also a lovely hobby--so is gardening or amateur landscaping.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: apl68 on April 13, 2021, 01:07:24 PM
The officer responsible for the shooting in Minnesota has now resigned.  It's good that she didn't dig in her heels and put up a big fight.  Descriptions of the video of the incident indicate that it really was a grotesque mistake, so she may not face prosecution.  There will undoubtedly be litigation, though.

The department really needs to take a close look at what happened here, to prevent something like it happening again.  It can't be just shrugged off as an unfortunate incident.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 13, 2021, 01:47:19 PM
The officer responsible for the shooting in Minnesota has now resigned.  It's good that she didn't dig in her heels and put up a big fight.  Descriptions of the video of the incident indicate that it really was a grotesque mistake, so she may not face prosecution.  There will undoubtedly be litigation, though.

The department really needs to take a close look at what happened here, to prevent something like it happening again.  It can't be just shrugged off as an unfortunate incident.

Does her resignation mean she won't have legal representation provided by her union? That could make any litigation lead to bankruptcy.

As you say, it is concerning that drawing a gun and drawing a taser could be so similar, even given everything happening in the heat of the moment.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 14, 2021, 06:28:00 AM
The officer responsible for the shooting in Minnesota has now resigned.  It's good that she didn't dig in her heels and put up a big fight.  Descriptions of the video of the incident indicate that it really was a grotesque mistake, so she may not face prosecution.  There will undoubtedly be litigation, though.

The department really needs to take a close look at what happened here, to prevent something like it happening again.  It can't be just shrugged off as an unfortunate incident.

Does her resignation mean she won't have legal representation provided by her union? That could make any litigation lead to bankruptcy.

As you say, it is concerning that drawing a gun and drawing a taser could be so similar, even given everything happening in the heat of the moment.

Do I hear you saying the presence of a union could be good, for anything but selfish, incompetent people? Well, golly.

But I think she could have had representation but chose not to, which was the right choice, given the embarrassment that should come from claiming she should keep her job. Of course the police are stressed out right now and they are human beings but you can't defend keeping a person who commits a blunder like that on the force working on the street.
For those of us who read what the crazy right has to say, just to keep our ear to the ground, this:
https://spectator.org/daunte-wright-shooting/
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 14, 2021, 07:45:28 AM


As you say, it is concerning that drawing a gun and drawing a taser could be so similar, even given everything happening in the heat of the moment.

I'll defer to people with experience, but prima facie this doesn't seem especially plausible to me. Presumably, you carry the two weapons on different sides of your body to reduce potential confusion. The gun-like tasers I've seen have all been bright yellow, presumably so you notice what you've drawn. Also, and crucially, my understanding is that tasers don't have a trigger safety, whereas pistols obviously do.

That's a fair few safety precautions to blow through on your way to a tragic mistake. That doesn't mean it can't happen, but it seems pretty unlikely to me, and thus a claim that ought to be regarded with a high degree of suspicion until it can be established.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 14, 2021, 10:43:26 AM


As you say, it is concerning that drawing a gun and drawing a taser could be so similar, even given everything happening in the heat of the moment.

I'll defer to people with experience, but prima facie this doesn't seem especially plausible to me. Presumably, you carry the two weapons on different sides of your body to reduce potential confusion. The gun-like tasers I've seen have all been bright yellow, presumably so you notice what you've drawn. Also, and crucially, my understanding is that tasers don't have a trigger safety, whereas pistols obviously do.

That's a fair few safety precautions to blow through on your way to a tragic mistake. That doesn't mean it can't happen, but it seems pretty unlikely to me, and thus a claim that ought to be regarded with a high degree of suspicion until it can be established.

So we should be considering the possibility that Officer Kim Potter was hoping to quit her job suddenly in disgrace and receive death threats?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 14, 2021, 11:27:28 AM

So we should be considering the possibility that Officer Kim Potter was hoping to quit her job suddenly in disgrace and receive death threats?

We shouldn't rush to buy the narrative that it was a tragic accident that could have happened to anybody.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 14, 2021, 11:47:29 AM

So we should be considering the possibility that Officer Kim Potter was hoping to quit her job suddenly in disgrace and receive death threats?

We shouldn't rush to buy the narrative that it was a tragic accident that could have happened to anybody.
I don't believe there a narrative like that, not 'happening' to someone as in, you are sitting there and you are struck by lightning. Each party did certain things which prompted the other party to do things, including, quite possibly, mistakes. When the police say it was an accident I take them to mean she didn't want to shoot the victim with a bullet. I can't see any reason to doubt it. Although I have heard they are less likely to use lethal force on black suspects than white.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: apl68 on April 14, 2021, 01:07:48 PM
Prosecutors have now charged the ex-officer with manslaughter in the second degree.  They appear to be assuming culpable negligence.  Which this shooting certainly sounds like.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: nebo113 on April 15, 2021, 05:59:35 AM
I know I'm gonna regret asking, mahog, but who is they and what's your source?

Although I have heard they are less likely to use lethal force on black suspects than white.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: jimbogumbo on April 15, 2021, 07:15:11 AM

So we should be considering the possibility that Officer Kim Potter was hoping to quit her job suddenly in disgrace and receive death threats?

We shouldn't rush to buy the narrative that it was a tragic accident that could have happened to anybody.
I don't believe there a narrative like that, not 'happening' to someone as in, you are sitting there and you are struck by lightning. Each party did certain things which prompted the other party to do things, including, quite possibly, mistakes. When the police say it was an accident I take them to mean she didn't want to shoot the victim with a bullet. I can't see any reason to doubt it. Although I have heard they are less likely to use lethal force on black suspects than white.

You may have "heard" the bolded part, but it Just.Isn't.True.

https://www.theroot.com/maybe-america-is-racist-1846667213
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 15, 2021, 07:54:56 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html

Returning to the subject of what happened in the tragic death of Mr. Wright, how civilians act when having an encounter with the police can be a major factor in what 'happens' to them, although (please read carefully) we agree that it is indeed a tragedy that he was fatally shot earlier this week. And speaking of the Root, Dr. Henry Louis Gates might know something about these situations, firsthand.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 15, 2021, 08:00:21 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html

Returning to the subject of what happened in the tragic death of Mr. Wright, how civilians act when having an encounter with the police can be a major factor in what 'happens' to them, although (please read carefully) we agree that it is indeed a tragedy that he was fatally shot earlier this week. And speaking of the Root, Dr. Henry Louis Gates might know something about it, firsthand.

He made a big mistake:
Quote
Mr. Fryer, the youngest African-American to receive tenure at Harvard and the first to win a John Bates Clark medal, a prize given to the most promising American economist under 40, said anger after the deaths of Michael Brown, Freddie Gray and others drove him to study the issue. “You know, protesting is not my thing,” he said. “But data is my thing. So I decided that I was going to collect a bunch of data and try to understand what really is going on when it comes to racial differences in police use of force.”

Not protesting? Collecting data? Trying to understand?

He clearly doesn't understand how he's supposed to approach these issues.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: nebo113 on April 16, 2021, 05:29:43 AM
White man doesn't get shot at after fleeing and beating police officer with hammer....in Minnesota.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/4/15/2026143/-White-Anti-Mask-Driver-Flees-Hits-Cop-Hanging-From-Truck-w-Hammer-in-Minnesota-And-Isn-t-Shot
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 16, 2021, 09:29:39 AM
Gotta love the Daily Kos. Starts out with " If there is any doubt that police will go out of the way not to shoot a violent white man yet is trigger happy with POCs, this is." And the headline is "White Anti-Mask Driver Flees, Hits Cop ‘Hanging’ From Truck w/Hammer in Minnesota, And Isn’t Shot."

So from one incident we can extrapolate to an entire nation? And, radicalized, radicalized coverage much?

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: jimbogumbo on April 16, 2021, 01:56:06 PM
I will again point you back to what I posted above. Try to get past the Henry Gates sentence, and look at the numerous links to data, which is why I posted the darn thing in the first place.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 16, 2021, 07:25:01 PM
Can you actually read Michael Harriott without cracking up? What a nutcase. Pathetic. Self pity elevated to...I don't know what.
on edit: OK, I mean, more like this. At some point wouldn't you think, "who cares if white people take their privilege for granted. Can't I say 'screw you, I'm gonna make it without your help, 'cause you can't keep a good man down.'" I would expect to see some of that attitude at some point. I actually wonder about it. I don't think Harriott writes about anything but the ubiquitous persecution of blacks. How about rock collecting?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 17, 2021, 10:45:20 AM
Something else to stir the soup: https://johnmcwhorter.substack.com/p/the-victorians-had-to-accept-darwin
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Descartes on April 17, 2021, 01:32:24 PM
White man doesn't get shot at after fleeing and beating police officer with hammer....in Minnesota.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/4/15/2026143/-White-Anti-Mask-Driver-Flees-Hits-Cop-Hanging-From-Truck-w-Hammer-in-Minnesota-And-Isn-t-Shot

This is a sloppy way of arguing and someone who is educated knows better.

You know that cops are different people with different experience levels, even training, different thresholds of fear, yes, different prejudices, and all scenarios aren't equal, right?

Maybe this guy SHOULD have shot the white guy and froze up, too chicken to do it.  That doesn't make one a better cop than a cop who shoots when he shouldn't.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: nebo113 on April 18, 2021, 07:29:00 AM
White man doesn't get shot at after fleeing and beating police officer with hammer....in Minnesota.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/4/15/2026143/-White-Anti-Mask-Driver-Flees-Hits-Cop-Hanging-From-Truck-w-Hammer-in-Minnesota-And-Isn-t-Shot

This is a sloppy way of arguing and someone who is educated knows better.

You know that cops are different people with different experience levels, even training, different thresholds of fear, yes, different prejudices, and all scenarios aren't equal, right?

Maybe this guy SHOULD have shot the white guy and froze up, too chicken to do it.  That doesn't make one a better cop than a cop who shoots when he shouldn't.

Sigh.....you are correct.  I have been exposed to mahogonny for so long that I am channeling his/her sloppiness.  However, it does anger me that one person (a white man) attacks an officer and lives, while another (a black man) doesn't attack and dies.  Your point about the differences among law enforcement officers is well taken, and one that we should perhaps explore.  Dan Abrams (son of 1st amendment attorney Floyd) has a program on Sirius XM focused on the overlap between law and politics.  He is generally very supportive of LE, though very clear eyed about shortcomings in the legal system of which LE is a component.  One program this week focused on the very point you're making:  cops are individuals, most good, some bad.  I do think that (like K12 teachers), they are over worked, undertrained, underpaid, and asked to deal with society's ills that might best be healed elsewhere.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: lightning on April 18, 2021, 10:10:28 PM
White man doesn't get shot at after fleeing and beating police officer with hammer....in Minnesota.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/4/15/2026143/-White-Anti-Mask-Driver-Flees-Hits-Cop-Hanging-From-Truck-w-Hammer-in-Minnesota-And-Isn-t-Shot

This is a sloppy way of arguing and someone who is educated knows better.

You know that cops are different people with different experience levels, even training, different thresholds of fear, yes, different prejudices, and all scenarios aren't equal, right?

Maybe this guy SHOULD have shot the white guy and froze up, too chicken to do it.  That doesn't make one a better cop than a cop who shoots when he shouldn't.

Sigh.....you are correct.  I have been exposed to mahogonny for so long that I am channeling his/her sloppiness.  However, it does anger me that one person (a white man) attacks an officer and lives, while another (a black man) doesn't attack and dies.  Your point about the differences among law enforcement officers is well taken, and one that we should perhaps explore.  Dan Abrams (son of 1st amendment attorney Floyd) has a program on Sirius XM focused on the overlap between law and politics.  He is generally very supportive of LE, though very clear eyed about shortcomings in the legal system of which LE is a component.  One program this week focused on the very point you're making:  cops are individuals, most good, some bad.  I do think that (like K12 teachers), they are over worked, undertrained, underpaid, and asked to deal with society's ills that might best be healed elsewhere.

There is no need to make excuses for yourself, nebo113. Many of us knew what you were doing--you were goofing on our lovable resident village fool, and I got a chuckle out of it. Thank you.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: spork on April 19, 2021, 03:57:18 AM
More than three people per day killed in the USA by police during the trial of Derek Chauvin:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/17/us/police-shootings-killings.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/17/us/police-shootings-killings.html).

More than half of them Black and Latino.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 19, 2021, 10:19:00 AM
Maxine Waters could get censured (or more) for inciting violence. Of course, she could argue the violence was being planned already. Sound familiar?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2021/04/19/republicans-from-mccarthy-to-marjorie-taylor-greene-push-for-action-against-maxine-waters/?sh=58c2245d7e6b

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: spork on April 19, 2021, 04:49:52 PM
Maxine Waters could get censured (or more) for inciting violence. Of course, she could argue the violence was being planned already. Sound familiar?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2021/04/19/republicans-from-mccarthy-to-marjorie-taylor-greene-push-for-action-against-maxine-waters/?sh=58c2245d7e6b

How about your thoughts on the previous murder conviction of a Minneapolis police officer, since you're so fixated on race?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/07/us/minneapolis-police-sentencing-mohamed-noor.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/07/us/minneapolis-police-sentencing-mohamed-noor.html)
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 19, 2021, 07:39:48 PM
Maxine Waters could get censured (or more) for inciting violence. Of course, she could argue the violence was being planned already. Sound familiar?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2021/04/19/republicans-from-mccarthy-to-marjorie-taylor-greene-push-for-action-against-maxine-waters/?sh=58c2245d7e6b

How about your thoughts on the previous murder conviction of a Minneapolis police officer, since you're so fixated on race?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/07/us/minneapolis-police-sentencing-mohamed-noor.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/07/us/minneapolis-police-sentencing-mohamed-noor.html)

It's hard to say a lot about it. I'm hearing about it for the first time; whereas; I almost can't check the weather report without hearing the name 'George Floyd.'
It seems to me the sentence was a bit on the long side considering that Ms. Justine Damond should have  spoken before approaching the squad car to alert them.
And that's why we need to do more. All of us - me, you, the chair, the dean, all of us - to combat systemic racism. We need more training, so we can think, speak and teach anti-racistly. And no more tolerating those micro aggressions. When the colleague next to you says something that might make a person of color uncomfortable if they were in the room to hear it, call them out! Give them a stern lecture about the evils of white supremacy. And keep an eye on them from now on. If you're not getting through to them, talk about lynchings.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: nebo113 on April 20, 2021, 05:21:51 AM
If you're not getting through to them, talk about lynchings.

Tucker Carlson already did.  Derek done been lynched by the media.....
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Diogenes on April 20, 2021, 02:12:27 PM
Guilty on all counts! Facing 40 years in prison.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2021, 02:26:48 PM
Justice will be served if he gets all 40 years and the other murders are also convicted.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 20, 2021, 02:38:43 PM
Good. May he spend the rest of his life behind bars, where I hope he'll be unable to inflict his execrable self on others.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Descartes on April 20, 2021, 07:01:35 PM
Let's just be real here for a second regarding sentencing.

MN, like my state, both defaults to sentencing a person on the most serious charge they are convicted of AND concurrent sentences,  not consecutive except as deemed necessary to protect the public.

I have seen - many times - defendants with rather extensive criminal records and particularly outrageous conduct whom judges have declined to depart from this norm for.  If justice is blind and Chauvin is treated like anyone else,  he should only be looking at 10 - 15 years in prison,  2/3 of it in prison and the rest on parole - OR even judicial/shock release even sooner owing to his completely clean criminal record and the fact that he certainly didn't set out to commit some robberies or burglaries and killed someone in the process.  Anyone else would be treated that way.  After all,  prison is to rehabilitate,  not punish vindictively ...... right?

Let's see if the judge sticks to fairness or caves in to community outrage.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 20, 2021, 09:49:06 PM
He was convicted of second-degree murder, which is unintentional murdering in  the commission of another crime--in this case, intentional felony assault.

As for his criminal record, I believe he has 9 tax evasion charges hanging over his head. That won't factor into this sentencing, but it will help to keep this menace off the streets a while longer.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: ergative on April 20, 2021, 10:40:14 PM

As for his criminal record, I believe he has 9 tax evasion charges hanging over his head.

Cripes, what a loser.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 21, 2021, 02:09:01 AM
Now that's it's over, despite what President Biden says, I don't see it bring America together. Not that we should expect unity, but it would be nice if we could stop the war of words a little.

What it means going forward is where we are anything but united.  Some people see it as a victory for anti-racism and wanted that. Some people see it as a victory for 'anti-racism' and didn't want that (me).
Even if you believe Chauvin acted out of racial animus, the mere mention of the word 'systemic' encourages us to think we need to start seeing police as individually racist. It's escalating rhetoric. I won't do that any more than I will believe comedians are sexual predators because of what I found out about Louis C K.
Police are in the catching bad guys business. As long as they can make it look like that's what they're dedicated to, they're winning. When they abuse their power, we need to say 'hold on a minute. You're not gonna be doing that, long as we pay your salary.' That's all.
The police killing people they didn't need to kill and getting away with it is an American problem that affects all races. 'Black Lives Matter' could be an ally in fighting that if they could admit that. The thing about the protesters is not just that some are violent. It's that many are massively ignorant.
Yes, the jurors could easily have feared for their safety. Maxine Waters said what a lot of people are thinking. Whether or not they heard about her antics is almost immaterial.
In my mind, Floyd was a big time bullshit artist who knew his way around police confrontations. That was old stuff for him. When the police first approached him he did a little dance with his hands. On the steering wheel, off the wheel, in the air, at his side. He knew the cops wanted his hands on the wheel. They said it in plain English.  The purpose was likely to create a distraction so his friend could dispose of the rest of the drugs without being noticed. And the feigned hysteria 'I'm not that kind of guy' etc.
You can't talk about Floyd, his behavior, his history, out of respect for the dead? If you'll pardon the expression, WTF? I pay people to maintain law and order. I read about people like Floyd in the local police log.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mamselle on April 21, 2021, 05:17:29 AM
I believe the charge and sentencing are within the realm of what is fair and reasonable.

But I cannot celebrate the situation as justice.

True justice would have been served if Floyd--with all his faults, errors, and stumblings through life--were still alive.

The loss of justice happened when Chauvin--with all his own errors and stumblings--took it upon himself to act as judge, jury, and executioner, without apparent consideration for the humanity of his victim.

Prayers for all their families. None of this was necessary.

M.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: nebo113 on April 21, 2021, 07:27:16 AM
In my mind, Floyd was a big time bullshit artist who knew his way around police confrontations.

Guess he deserved to die, then.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 21, 2021, 07:37:30 AM
In my mind, Floyd was a big time bullshit artist who knew his way around police confrontations.

Guess he deserved to die, then.

Saying someone's choices contributed to their undesired or tragic outcomes is a long way from saying they "deserved" them. Do smokers "deserve" lung cancer?

When Wile E. Coyote steps off a cliff and suffers the effects of gravity, it's not a question of whether he "deserved" it; the fact is that the outcome was highly predictable based on his choices.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on April 21, 2021, 08:02:02 AM
Now that the verdict is in, the question becomes: Will police be more careful now that they see someone facing consequences for using excessive and deadly force?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 21, 2021, 08:02:47 AM
In my mind, Floyd was a big time bullshit artist who knew his way around police confrontations.

Guess he deserved to die, then.

Saying someone's choices contributed to their undesired or tragic outcomes is a long way from saying they "deserved" them. Do smokers "deserve" lung cancer?

When Wile E. Coyote steps off a cliff and suffers the effects of gravity, it's not a question of whether he "deserved" it; the fact is that the outcome was highly predictable based on his choices.

Obviously the law does not say you deserve to die at the hands of another human, certainly not in this case. And in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter if I shed a tear for him or not. Who cares? What seems odd to me is that in less than year, media Floyd has gone from someone we don't know to John Doe with some criminal exploits and incarcerations to Fred MacMurray on My Three Sons.
Candace Owens may overstate things a bit, but she may have a point when she says 'black people are the only demographic in the USA who take the dregs among them and make heroes out of them.' Or as Thomas Sowell would say, someone's given us the idea that black redneck culture is 'the real redneck culture.' White people play along out of guilt.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: RatGuy on April 21, 2021, 08:05:32 AM
In my mind, Floyd was a big time bullshit artist who knew his way around police confrontations.

Guess he deserved to die, then.

Saying someone's choices contributed to their undesired or tragic outcomes is a long way from saying they "deserved" them. Do smokers "deserve" lung cancer?

When Wile E. Coyote steps off a cliff and suffers the effects of gravity, it's not a question of whether he "deserved" it; the fact is that the outcome was highly predictable based on his choices.

I find this a faulty metaphor. After all, police aren't natural forces like gravity or cancer. They're human that make decisions -- often flawed decisions. By that logic, if you're a crap person who says crap things in a public forum, then someone beating the everloving snot out of you is a predictable outcome based on your bad decisions.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on April 21, 2021, 08:15:54 AM
In my mind, Floyd was a big time bullshit artist who knew his way around police confrontations.

Guess he deserved to die, then.

Saying someone's choices contributed to their undesired or tragic outcomes is a long way from saying they "deserved" them. Do smokers "deserve" lung cancer?

When Wile E. Coyote steps off a cliff and suffers the effects of gravity, it's not a question of whether he "deserved" it; the fact is that the outcome was highly predictable based on his choices.

Obviously the law does not say you deserve to die at the hands of another human, certainly not in this case. And in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter if I shed a tear for him or not. Who cares? What seems odd to me is that in less than year, media Floyd has gone from someone we don't know to John Doe with some criminal exploits and incarcerations to Fred MacMurray on My Three Sons.
Candace Owens may overstate things a bit, but she may have a point when she says 'black people are the only demographic in the USA who take the dregs among them and make heroes out of them.' Or as Thomas Sowell would say, someone's given us the idea that black redneck culture is 'the real redneck culture.' White people play along out of guilt.

You seem to think that people are upset about Floyd's death because they believe he is a flawless human being or a hero, but I have never heard anyone say those things about him. Rather, the incident in which Floyd was killed has become symbolic of a wider tendency of police to use excessive and deadly force against people of color while facing few consequences. The excessiveness of the force was obvious and egregious, and the incident was filmed, and so there was great public interest in the incident and in the trial.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Descartes on April 21, 2021, 08:55:52 AM
https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/06/12/george-floyd-criminal-record/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd

"Between 1997 and 2005, he was convicted of eight crimes. He served four years in prison after accepting a plea bargain for a 2007 aggravated robbery in a home invasion."

The quote comes from wikipedia, who condensed things; the source for that quote is in the first link, which takes many paragraphs to laboriously lay things out.



So this is our guy.  This is the guy that I'm supposed to be out all night marching in the streets for and demanding justice.  This is the great guy whose death has people crying, screaming, and trembling (and burning and looting.) 

Did he "deserve" to die?  That's not even the question - just like teenagers who trespass in a power facility don't "deserve" to die by electrocution.  It's more a matter of "actions have consequences."

Was Chauvin wrong?  Clearly, and the jury affirmed that.  Am I bothered by his death?  I just can't seem to get myself worked up about it.

It's sad how it worked out for everyone.  At the end of the day Floyd was what I call a taker; he contributed little to society but took an awful lot and did a lot of things that made his community a worse place to live.  He still shouldn't have died that day.  He should have just went back into the system yet again for another round of probation or jail time.

At the end of the day Chauvin was someone who was not a taker; he worked very hard and contributed positively to his community, making it a better place to live.  That doesn't excuse what he did, which was wrong.  He functionally threw his life away with a series of bad decisions.  I'm having trouble getting upset on his behalf, in much the same way I can't muster much outrage on Floyd's.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 21, 2021, 09:06:50 AM
Why are you sad for Chauvin? His actions have had consequences. He was what I call a 'thug'--a serial abuser of his power who delighted in harming the people over whom he had power, who brazenly defrauded his government, and who for decades was allowed to flout the laws he was employed to uphold despite a long litany of complaints which, if directed at anyone who wasn't a police officer, would have resulted in multiple assault charges and convictions.

If he didn't want to go to prison, he shouldn't have murdered someone.

Also, the sentencing for law enforcement officials should be much harsher than for ordinary citizens.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: ergative on April 21, 2021, 09:08:47 AM
In my mind, Floyd was a big time bullshit artist who knew his way around police confrontations.

Guess he deserved to die, then.

Saying someone's choices contributed to their undesired or tragic outcomes is a long way from saying they "deserved" them. Do smokers "deserve" lung cancer?

When Wile E. Coyote steps off a cliff and suffers the effects of gravity, it's not a question of whether he "deserved" it; the fact is that the outcome was highly predictable based on his choices.

Obviously the law does not say you deserve to die at the hands of another human, certainly not in this case. And in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter if I shed a tear for him or not. Who cares? What seems odd to me is that in less than year, media Floyd has gone from someone we don't know to John Doe with some criminal exploits and incarcerations to Fred MacMurray on My Three Sons.
Candace Owens may overstate things a bit, but she may have a point when she says 'black people are the only demographic in the USA who take the dregs among them and make heroes out of them.' Or as Thomas Sowell would say, someone's given us the idea that black redneck culture is 'the real redneck culture.' White people play along out of guilt.

You seem to think that people are upset about Floyd's death because they believe he is a flawless human being or a hero, but I have never heard anyone say those things about him. Rather, the incident in which Floyd was killed has become symbolic of a wider tendency of police to use excessive and deadly force against people of color while facing few consequences. The excessiveness of the force was obvious and egregious, and the incident was filmed, and so there was great public interest in the incident and in the trial.

If it is "highly predictable" that a law enforcement officer crush you to death for a $20 counterfeit bill, then that's the problem. Regardless of who you are or what you did. Anyone who thinks that George Floyd's past behavior is at all relevant is badly missing the point.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on April 21, 2021, 09:12:16 AM
https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/06/12/george-floyd-criminal-record/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd

"Between 1997 and 2005, he was convicted of eight crimes. He served four years in prison after accepting a plea bargain for a 2007 aggravated robbery in a home invasion."

The quote comes from wikipedia, who condensed things; the source for that quote is in the first link, which takes many paragraphs to laboriously lay things out.



So this is our guy.  This is the guy that I'm supposed to be out all night marching in the streets for and demanding justice.  This is the great guy whose death has people crying, screaming, and trembling (and burning and looting.) 

Did he "deserve" to die?  That's not even the question - just like teenagers who trespass in a power facility don't "deserve" to die by electrocution.  It's more a matter of "actions have consequences."

Was Chauvin wrong?  Clearly, and the jury affirmed that.  Am I bothered by his death?  I just can't seem to get myself worked up about it.

It's sad how it worked out for everyone.  At the end of the day Floyd was what I call a taker; he contributed little to society but took an awful lot and did a lot of things that made his community a worse place to live.  He still shouldn't have died that day.  He should have just went back into the system yet again for another round of probation or jail time.

At the end of the day Chauvin was someone who was not a taker; he worked very hard and contributed positively to his community, making it a better place to live.  That doesn't excuse what he did, which was wrong.  He functionally threw his life away with a series of bad decisions.  I'm having trouble getting upset on his behalf, in much the same way I can't muster much outrage on Floyd's.

Smh at this assessment: "Chauvin was a good guy, he just made a mistake and murdered someone, nothing to be upset about!"
 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Descartes on April 21, 2021, 09:15:07 AM
Why are you sad for Chauvin? His actions have had consequences. He was what I call a 'thug'--a serial abuser of his power who delighted in harming the people over whom he had power, who brazenly defrauded his government, and who for decades was allowed to flout the laws he was employed to uphold despite a long litany of complaints which, if directed at anyone who wasn't a police officer, would have resulted in multiple assault charges and convictions.

If he didn't want to go to prison, he shouldn't have murdered someone.

Also, the sentencing for law enforcement officials should be much harsher than for ordinary citizens.

Call him what you want.  I'd consider Floyd the thug but you can put whatever label you want on someone.  If I were walking alone in downtown Minneapolis after dark and I had a choice between encountering Floyd or Chauvin I'd take Chauvin every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Good cops get complaints.  I don't know if you honestly don't realize this or not but criminals game the complaint system.  People who legally and justifiably got their ass handed to them by a cop go and file a complaint on that cop.  The fact that none were found to have merit matters. 

If you are intellectually honest, what would you say about someone who had 8 previous criminal charges, all of them dismissed or found not guilty?  Would you be saying "Yeah, you can see there's a history there," or would you be saying "They didn't get convicted on those?"
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 21, 2021, 09:31:50 AM


Call him what you want.  I'd consider Floyd the thug but you can put whatever label you want on someone.  If I were walking alone in downtown Minneapolis after dark and I had a choice between encountering Floyd or Chauvin I'd take Chauvin every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Good cops get complaints.  I don't know if you honestly don't realize this or not but criminals game the complaint system.  People who legally and justifiably got their ass handed to them by a cop go and file a complaint on that cop.  The fact that none were found to have merit matters. 

If you are intellectually honest, what would you say about someone who had 8 previous criminal charges, all of them dismissed or found not guilty?  Would you be saying "Yeah, you can see there's a history there," or would you be saying "They didn't get convicted on those?"

Believe it or not, getting serious complaints filed against you is not a marker of your skill, effectiveness, or good nature. Especially when filing complaints against people in your occupation is extremely rare, difficult, and usually results in nothing happening as a result. Police conduct review boards are merely internal, and they're notoriously opaque and ineffective--and they mostly deal with complaints from other officers.

Chauvin had eighteen complaints of excessive force from members of the public. He was "disciplined" for two of those. Even the club owner for whom he was a bouncer thinks he was an overly violent thug. He's a violent criminal who couldn't learn a lesson the easy way, who contributed to rotting his police department and souring its relation to the public, and he's a fraudster. He is a menace to society, and it's good that he's been removed. It's just too bad his cancerous rot wasn't cut out before it had a chance to metastasize.

If you want me and others to get all doe-eyed over cops, then you need to be first in line to dispose of the rotten apples before they can spoil the bunch. The more you dig in your heels and refuse to support public accountability for unlawful police conduct, the less supportive I become of any cops, and the more willing I become to scrap the system entirely.

Every single police officer who looked the other way, who let Chauvin get away with his behaviour, is a bad cop. Every. Single. One.
They should all be fired, and they should, at minimum, face a class-action lawsuit on behalf of the citizens of Minneapolis. The more blind eyes you turn, the deeper the rot sets in.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 21, 2021, 10:08:07 AM

If it is "highly predictable" that a law enforcement officer crush you to death for a $20 counterfeit bill, then that's the problem. Regardless of who you are or what you did. Anyone who thinks that George Floyd's past behavior is at all relevant is badly missing the point.

Suppose a first year university student commits plagiarism and gets kicked out of university. Some (many?) may argue that the punishment was excessive, and were the actions of a vindictive administrator. Does that mean that the act of plagiarism is, in  that case, irrelevant?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 21, 2021, 10:11:52 AM

If it is "highly predictable" that a law enforcement officer crush you to death for a $20 counterfeit bill, then that's the problem. Regardless of who you are or what you did. Anyone who thinks that George Floyd's past behavior is at all relevant is badly missing the point.

Suppose a first year university student commits plagiarism and gets kicked out of university. Some (many?) may argue that the punishment was excessive, and were the actions of a vindictive administrator. Does that mean that the act of plagiarism is, in  that case, irrelevant?

Expulsion is a punishment for the offense of violating the academic integrity policy. We can disagree about whether it's proportional, but it's still the officially-sanctioned punishment in this hypothetical scenario.

Being choked to death is not the officially-sanctioned punishment for any crime in the United States, least of all for having a checkered legal history.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: apl68 on April 21, 2021, 10:15:39 AM
At the end of the day Chauvin was someone who was not a taker; he worked very hard and contributed positively to his community, making it a better place to live.  That doesn't excuse what he did, which was wrong.  He functionally threw his life away with a series of bad decisions.  I'm having trouble getting upset on his behalf, in much the same way I can't muster much outrage on Floyd's.

Clearly he DIDN'T make his community a better place to live.  Had he done his job correctly he would have.  But he messed up badly enough to be disciplined at least twice, forming a definite pattern of wrongful behavior, and then murdered a man.  By wrecking trust in law enforcement in his community, he made his community a much worse place to be.  Bad law officers sabotage law enforcement, to the detriment of us all.

There's a famous line in "Star Wars" where Obi-Wan tells Vader "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."  In a bizarre sort of way, Chauvin did this for George Floyd.  Had Chauvin confined himself to anything remotely like reasonable force, Floyd would be still alive, and merely another petty crook whom few had the time of day for.  Now, thanks to Chauvin's actions, he is widely regarded as a martyr.  Another way in which Chauvin has failed to make the world a better place.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 21, 2021, 10:27:41 AM

If it is "highly predictable" that a law enforcement officer crush you to death for a $20 counterfeit bill, then that's the problem. Regardless of who you are or what you did. Anyone who thinks that George Floyd's past behavior is at all relevant is badly missing the point.

Suppose a first year university student commits plagiarism and gets kicked out of university. Some (many?) may argue that the punishment was excessive, and were the actions of a vindictive administrator. Does that mean that the act of plagiarism is, in  that case, irrelevant?

Expulsion is a punishment for the offense of violating the academic integrity policy. We can disagree about whether it's proportional, but it's still the officially-sanctioned punishment in this hypothetical scenario.

Being choked to death is not the officially-sanctioned punishment for any crime in the United States, least of all for having a checkered legal history.

But being arrested is state-sanctioned for commiting a crime, including passing counterfeit money. Unless you are going to claim that Chauvin was planning to just kill some random civilian, the only reason he was subduing Floyd was because of the latter's criminal activity. So if "Floyd's past behaviour" included the action for which he was arrested, then suggesting it was not "at all relevant" is ridiculous.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Diogenes on April 21, 2021, 10:31:59 AM
In my mind, Floyd was a big time bullshit artist who knew his way around police confrontations.

Guess he deserved to die, then.

Saying someone's choices contributed to their undesired or tragic outcomes is a long way from saying they "deserved" them. Do smokers "deserve" lung cancer?

When Wile E. Coyote steps off a cliff and suffers the effects of gravity, it's not a question of whether he "deserved" it; the fact is that the outcome was highly predictable based on his choices.

Bad analogy. The cliff and the tobacco do not have their own agency. They are inanimate objects. Chauvin had his own agency and culpability.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Diogenes on April 21, 2021, 10:43:33 AM
Now that's it's over, despite what President Biden says, I don't see it bring America together. Not that we should expect unity, but it would be nice if we could stop the war of words a little.

What it means going forward is where we are anything but united.  Some people see it as a victory for anti-racism and wanted that. Some people see it as a victory for 'anti-racism' and didn't want that (me).
Even if you believe Chauvin acted out of racial animus, the mere mention of the word 'systemic' encourages us to think we need to start seeing police as individually racist. It's escalating rhetoric. I won't do that any more than I will believe comedians are sexual predators because of what I found out about Louis C K.
Police are in the catching bad guys business. As long as they can make it look like that's what they're dedicated to, they're winning. When they abuse their power, we need to say 'hold on a minute. You're not gonna be doing that, long as we pay your salary.' That's all.
The police killing people they didn't need to kill and getting away with it is an American problem that affects all races. 'Black Lives Matter' could be an ally in fighting that if they could admit that. The thing about the protesters is not just that some are violent. It's that many are massively ignorant.
Yes, the jurors could easily have feared for their safety. Maxine Waters said what a lot of people are thinking. Whether or not they heard about her antics is almost immaterial.
In my mind, Floyd was a big time bullshit artist who knew his way around police confrontations. That was old stuff for him. When the police first approached him he did a little dance with his hands. On the steering wheel, off the wheel, in the air, at his side. He knew the cops wanted his hands on the wheel. They said it in plain English.  The purpose was likely to create a distraction so his friend could dispose of the rest of the drugs without being noticed. And the feigned hysteria 'I'm not that kind of guy' etc.
You can't talk about Floyd, his behavior, his history, out of respect for the dead? If you'll pardon the expression, WTF? I pay people to maintain law and order. I read about people like Floyd in the local police log.

You are basing your argument on bad information.
First off, by continually focusing on the one case of Chauvin and claiming that we can't extrapolate to systemic issues, you are actively ignoring the large body of research on the issue. You know this because you've ignored this data when presented to you in other threads such a this https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

Second, you argue that BLM does not care about non-black deaths at the hands of the police. This is patently false and a strawman of them. One can point out the disproportionate violence without making it an either/or situation.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 21, 2021, 10:49:02 AM

But being arrested is state-sanctioned for commiting a crime, including passing counterfeit money. Unless you are going to claim that Chauvin was planning to just kill some random civilian, the only reason he was subduing Floyd was because of the latter's criminal activity. So if "Floyd's past behaviour" included the action for which he was arrested, then suggesting it was not "at all relevant" is ridiculous.

Nobody marched in the streets because he was arrested. They marched because he was murdered as part and parcel of that arrest. You don't get to do anything you like to someone just because you're arresting them. And if you decide to assault them because you like to hurt people under your power and they die as a result, then you're guilty of second-degree murder. And guess what? Chauvin is guilty of second-degree murder.

Once again, the way to win me (and others) over is to actually condemn police violence when it arises, not to bend over backwards to try to excuse it every way you can. If you're willing to go to such lengths here, in this open-and-shut case, what grounds do I have to believe you when you say you're againt police violence in the first place?

None.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 21, 2021, 10:49:28 AM
Second, you argue that BLM does not care about non-black deaths at the hands of the police. This is patently false and a strawman of them. One can point out the disproportionate violence without making it an either/or situation.

I missed this. Was there a BLM protest about non-black deaths at the hands of police? Or posters of non-black people killed by police?
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Descartes on April 21, 2021, 10:53:48 AM
Second, you argue that BLM does not care about non-black deaths at the hands of the police. This is patently false and a strawman of them. One can point out the disproportionate violence without making it an either/or situation.

I missed this. Was there a BLM protest about non-black deaths at the hands of police? Or posters of non-black people killed by police?

Look up the Burnsville, MN shooting that occurred during the end of the trial.  The protesters were "heading down there" - until they learned it was a white guy who got shot.  Interest really dissipated after that and it barely made the news.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 21, 2021, 10:57:13 AM
Once again, the way to win me (and others) over is to actually condemn police violence when it arises, not to bend over backwards to try to excuse it every way you can. If you're willing to go to such lengths here, in this open-and-shut case, what grounds do I have to believe you when you say you're against police violence in the first place?

None.

I'm against police violence in the same way I'm against cancer. And I'm for measures to reduce it, just like I'm for research to cure cancer. Neither of those prevent me from pointing out that many people who suffer from both of these things, (neither of which is a certainty), have engaged in activities, often in a pattern over many years, which increase the odds of experiencing them.

Trying to cure cancer is not so that people can make unhealthy lifestyle choices without consequences; it's an attempt to have treatment that supplements the value of people making good choices.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 21, 2021, 11:08:39 AM
Once again, the way to win me (and others) over is to actually condemn police violence when it arises, not to bend over backwards to try to excuse it every way you can. If you're willing to go to such lengths here, in this open-and-shut case, what grounds do I have to believe you when you say you're against police violence in the first place?

None.

I'm against police violence in the same way I'm against cancer. And I'm for measures to reduce it, just like I'm for research to cure cancer. Neither of those prevent me from pointing out that many people who suffer from both of these things, (neither of which is a certainty), have engaged in activities, often in a pattern over many years, which increase the odds of experiencing them.

Trying to cure cancer is not so that people can make unhealthy lifestyle choices without consequences; it's an attempt to have treatment that supplements the value of people making good choices.

Then this goes right back to ergative's point: being subject to unlawful violence is not and should not be a consequence of criminal activity (leaving aside the question of whether Floyd actually did anything illegal, which has not been determined). Some uses of force are authorized to police. Others are not. The ones which are may be causally connnected to arrests; the ones which aren't, shouldn't be (there's no excuse for them).

Every interaction you have with police increases your chances of arrest and lawful violence against you; fine. But they shouldn't also increase your chances of being murdered by the police, because police are not authorized to murder you.


If you want to insist that you're against police violence and for measures to reduce it, then I don't understand why you're so invested in exculpating this guy by drawing attention away from his horrifically violent crime and instead condemning his victim. Remember: Chauvin engaged in activities, over a period of 19 years, which substantially increased his odds of getting caught and going to prison. He was a career criminal hiding behind his uniform.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 21, 2021, 11:23:54 AM
Once again, the way to win me (and others) over is to actually condemn police violence when it arises, not to bend over backwards to try to excuse it every way you can. If you're willing to go to such lengths here, in this open-and-shut case, what grounds do I have to believe you when you say you're against police violence in the first place?

None.

I'm against police violence in the same way I'm against cancer. And I'm for measures to reduce it, just like I'm for research to cure cancer. Neither of those prevent me from pointing out that many people who suffer from both of these things, (neither of which is a certainty), have engaged in activities, often in a pattern over many years, which increase the odds of experiencing them.

Trying to cure cancer is not so that people can make unhealthy lifestyle choices without consequences; it's an attempt to have treatment that supplements the value of people making good choices.

Then this goes right back to ergative's point: being subject to unlawful violence is not and should not be a consequence of criminal activity (leaving aside the question of whether Floyd actually did anything illegal, which has not been determined). Some uses of force are authorized to police. Others are not. The ones which are may be causally connnected to arrests; the ones which aren't, shouldn't be (there's no excuse for them).

Every interaction you have with police increases your chances of arrest and lawful violence against you; fine. But they shouldn't also increase your chances of being murdered by the police, because police are not authorized to murder you.


If you want to insist that you're against police violence and for measures to reduce it, then I don't understand why you're so invested in exculpating this guy by drawing attention away from his horrifically violent crime and instead condemning his victim. Remember: Chauvin engaged in activities, over a period of 19 years, which substantially increased his odds of getting caught and going to prison. He was a career criminal hiding behind his uniform.

Chauvin was convicted by a jury in a court of law. I didn't contribute to his legal defense fund (if there was one), I didn't protest on his behalf, or anything of the sort. The one thing I was curious about was the medical evidence about the effects of Floyd's drug use and pre-existing health conditions. The medical examiner and others testified about this, and the jury made their decision. The legal process exists for a reason, and it has done its job. I'm not sure how this makes me "invested in exculpating" Chauvin. (I've "invested" more every time I buy a cup of coffee.)

What concerns me for society is that if the pressure to immediately treat all kinds of actions by police as criminal, then two things are likely to happen:
If police feel the deck is stacked against them, these things will happen. As long as the charges and convictions of police are in situations that most police see as definitely wrong, this won't be a problem.

"Defund the police" is very much a "be careful what you wish for" scenario.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on April 21, 2021, 11:25:14 AM
Why are you sad for Chauvin? His actions have had consequences. He was what I call a 'thug'--a serial abuser of his power who delighted in harming the people over whom he had power, who brazenly defrauded his government, and who for decades was allowed to flout the laws he was employed to uphold despite a long litany of complaints which, if directed at anyone who wasn't a police officer, would have resulted in multiple assault charges and convictions.

If he didn't want to go to prison, he shouldn't have murdered someone.

Also, the sentencing for law enforcement officials should be much harsher than for ordinary citizens.

Call him what you want.  I'd consider Floyd the thug but you can put whatever label you want on someone.  If I were walking alone in downtown Minneapolis after dark and I had a choice between encountering Floyd or Chauvin I'd take Chauvin every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Good cops get complaints.  I don't know if you honestly don't realize this or not but criminals game the complaint system.  People who legally and justifiably got their ass handed to them by a cop go and file a complaint on that cop.  The fact that none were found to have merit matters. 

If you are intellectually honest, what would you say about someone who had 8 previous criminal charges, all of them dismissed or found not guilty?  Would you be saying "Yeah, you can see there's a history there," or would you be saying "They didn't get convicted on those?"

If you are being intellectually honest then you will not call Chavez a "good cop." He abused his power and murdered one of the people he is supposed to be protecting and serving.

It is simultaneously unsurprising and flabbergasting that conservatives allege that Chavez, the convicted murderer, is the good guy and Floyd, the murdered, is the bad guy.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on April 21, 2021, 11:29:35 AM
What concerns me for society is that if the pressure to immediately treat all kinds of actions by police as criminal, then two things are likely to happen:

Fortunately you have nothing to be concerned about, since police almost never face criminal accountability when they kill civilians: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-still-so-rare-for-police-officers-to-face-legal-consequences-for-misconduct/
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 21, 2021, 12:05:49 PM
What concerns me for society is that if the pressure to immediately treat all kinds of actions by police as criminal, then two things are likely to happen:

Fortunately you have nothing to be concerned about, since police almost never face criminal accountability when they kill civilians: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-still-so-rare-for-police-officers-to-face-legal-consequences-for-misconduct/

Just to be clear: my perception of the situation is irrelevant. What matters is the perception of current police and potential recruits.  Time will tell.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 21, 2021, 12:20:48 PM

You seem to think that people are upset about Floyd's death because they believe he is a flawless human being or a hero, but I have never heard anyone say those things about him.

Not that at all. It's not that he needed to be a flawless human being before he would get a lot of sympathy from me. All he would have needed to be was a person of average quality instead of markedly below.
Watch the news. They are practically inviting Floyd's family into your living room. "There he is, in the Cup Foods Market, just standing there, not being any trouble to anyone.  That could be you or me. Look, he even thanked the person working at the counter!'
Well, what's the correct etiquette for addressing a person who just gave you merchandise for counterfeit money? Gratitude I guess.
Uhm, no, that could not be you or me, compassionate anchor person. I've never been in a convenience store high on speedballs, making a scene. If you knew this man you'd run from him. You would not introduce him to your daughter. He's so brazen he doesn't even drive home after ripping off the store. Then when they come out to find him to confront him about his 'error' and give him a chance to make amends, he brushes them off. Then he still doesn't leave, he sits and hangs out. When the police get there he goes into an obnoxious histrionic fit.
"Black Americans have to go through this every day of their lives." Yada yada yada.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: ciao_yall on April 21, 2021, 01:03:58 PM

1. Cops will quit or retire, and fewer people will become cops in the first place, leading to a shortage.


Great! So there will be enough budget to hire social workers to deal with the mentally ill; afterschool programs for at-risk youth; and drug treatment programs instead of jail for low-level offenders.

Quote
2. Cops will avoid all kinds of interactions with suspects, which will ultimately mean them avoiding areas with high crime, which means avoiding the most disadvantaged neighborhoods.

Like thinking twice before pulling someone over for a busted tail light, going 5 miles over the speed limit, or having an air freshener hanging from the rear view mirror?

Quote

If police feel the deck is stacked against them, these things will happen. As long as the charges and convictions of police are in situations that most police see as definitely wrong, this won't be a problem.

"Defund the police" is very much a "be careful what you wish for" scenario.

Sounds like a winner all around to me.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 21, 2021, 01:05:00 PM
That's the thing, though, mahagonny. By your measures, Chauvin should also count as a person of "markedly below average" quality.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Descartes on April 21, 2021, 01:12:49 PM

1. Cops will quit or retire, and fewer people will become cops in the first place, leading to a shortage.


Great! So there will be enough budget to hire social workers to deal with the mentally ill; afterschool programs for at-risk youth; and drug treatment programs instead of jail for low-level offenders.

Quote
2. Cops will avoid all kinds of interactions with suspects, which will ultimately mean them avoiding areas with high crime, which means avoiding the most disadvantaged neighborhoods.

Like thinking twice before pulling someone over for a busted tail light, going 5 miles over the speed limit, or having an air freshener hanging from the rear view mirror?

Quote

If police feel the deck is stacked against them, these things will happen. As long as the charges and convictions of police are in situations that most police see as definitely wrong, this won't be a problem.

"Defund the police" is very much a "be careful what you wish for" scenario.

Sounds like a winner all around to me.

Nah.  If someone is casing my neighborhood while everyone is at work, appears to not have a reason to be there, and it is learned from running the vehicle registration they don't live anywhere near there, I want the police to find a reason to chat with that person and inquire. even if that means stopping them for some chicken shit pretextual reason.  I don't want them waiting until there's a verifiable crime that they can prove, such as "well someone just chased this guy out of their house after he broke in and assaulted them, now we have enough to try to stop him!"

I do NOT want the police to mind their own business and not bother with what you might see as inconsequential traffic stops.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 21, 2021, 01:23:11 PM

1. Cops will quit or retire, and fewer people will become cops in the first place, leading to a shortage.


Great! So there will be enough budget to hire social workers to deal with the mentally ill; afterschool programs for at-risk youth; and drug treatment programs instead of jail for low-level offenders.

Do people who say things like this assume that lots of cops are paid to sit around eating bon-bons? The only way taking money away from police for those things makes sense is if a lot of police time is wasted. If police are going to have to do less investigation of crimes, and less responding to violent situations, then that's not a good thing.

It strikes me as kind of ironic that academics, who are often offended at cuts in government funding because of the harm it does to the important work they do, are convinced that cuts to other areas funded by the government are totally justified because there is so much waste.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 21, 2021, 01:53:30 PM
That's the thing, though, mahagonny. By your measures, Chauvin should also count as a person of "markedly below average" quality.

And getting treated like one.

Floyd's family got their share of the $27 million which was quite a take considering how many years he would likely have lived, the way he was going. If I forget to pray for them...sorry.

The George Floyd hysteria is also paying big dividends to the anti-racism industry. Are you following the developments of the CRT infiltration into the schools? Well played, liberals.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Kron3007 on April 21, 2021, 02:10:58 PM

1. Cops will quit or retire, and fewer people will become cops in the first place, leading to a shortage.


Great! So there will be enough budget to hire social workers to deal with the mentally ill; afterschool programs for at-risk youth; and drug treatment programs instead of jail for low-level offenders.

Quote
2. Cops will avoid all kinds of interactions with suspects, which will ultimately mean them avoiding areas with high crime, which means avoiding the most disadvantaged neighborhoods.

Like thinking twice before pulling someone over for a busted tail light, going 5 miles over the speed limit, or having an air freshener hanging from the rear view mirror?

Quote

If police feel the deck is stacked against them, these things will happen. As long as the charges and convictions of police are in situations that most police see as definitely wrong, this won't be a problem.

"Defund the police" is very much a "be careful what you wish for" scenario.

Sounds like a winner all around to me.

Nah.  If someone is casing my neighborhood while everyone is at work, appears to not have a reason to be there, and it is learned from running the vehicle registration they don't live anywhere near there, I want the police to find a reason to chat with that person and inquire. even if that means stopping them for some chicken shit pretextual reason.  I don't want them waiting until there's a verifiable crime that they can prove, such as "well someone just chased this guy out of their house after he broke in and assaulted them, now we have enough to try to stop him!"

I do NOT want the police to mind their own business and not bother with what you might see as inconsequential traffic stops.

Where's your card comrad?  That is basically what you are saying...ironic coming from the right.

 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: pgher on April 21, 2021, 02:14:06 PM

If it is "highly predictable" that a law enforcement officer crush you to death for a $20 counterfeit bill, then that's the problem. Regardless of who you are or what you did. Anyone who thinks that George Floyd's past behavior is at all relevant is badly missing the point.

Suppose a first year university student commits plagiarism and gets kicked out of university. Some (many?) may argue that the punishment was excessive, and were the actions of a vindictive administrator. Does that mean that the act of plagiarism is, in  that case, irrelevant?

Expulsion is a punishment for the offense of violating the academic integrity policy. We can disagree about whether it's proportional, but it's still the officially-sanctioned punishment in this hypothetical scenario.

Being choked to death is not the officially-sanctioned punishment for any crime in the United States, least of all for having a checkered legal history.

But being arrested is state-sanctioned for commiting a crime, including passing counterfeit money. Unless you are going to claim that Chauvin was planning to just kill some random civilian, the only reason he was subduing Floyd was because of the latter's criminal activity. So if "Floyd's past behaviour" included the action for which he was arrested, then suggesting it was not "at all relevant" is ridiculous.

To extend the analogy, it is not up to an individual instructor to expel a student over plagiarism. Said instructor gathers evidence, submits it to a process that evaluates the circumstances, etc. Similarly, it is not up to an individual police officer to decide a particular person's guilt and sentence.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: spork on April 22, 2021, 04:39:55 AM
I think it's important to note that Derek Chauvin had a long history of complaints against him, approximately once per year during his nineteen years with the Minneapolis PD, many of which involved the use of excessive force, including choking maneuvers, kneeling with full body weight on prone and handcuffed arrestees, etc. The Minneapolis PD could have dealt with him in a productive manner long ago, but chose not to. He was a terrible police officer who never should not have been allowed to remain on the force, but in nearly every instance, the police department decided he had followed official policy. I say "nearly" because apparently he was officially reprimanded a couple of times, but that was a meaningless outcome that in no way altered his behavior.

While the Minneapolis PD might not be rotten from top to bottom, it's definitely got problems that go far beyond Chauvin.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 22, 2021, 05:39:03 AM
I think it's important to note that Derek Chauvin had a long history of complaints against him, approximately once per year during his nineteen years with the Minneapolis PD, many of which involved the use of excessive force, including choking maneuvers, kneeling with full body weight on prone and handcuffed arrestees, etc.

The histories of both Chauvin and Floyd sound like some sort of literary tragedy, where the ultimate end was foreshadowed all along. If either one of them had been a different kind of person, it wouldn't have turned out that way. 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: nebo113 on April 22, 2021, 06:01:23 AM
Folks:  My comment that George Floyd deserved to die was sarcasm.......
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: apl68 on April 22, 2021, 07:25:53 AM

Nah.  If someone is casing my neighborhood while everyone is at work, appears to not have a reason to be there, and it is learned from running the vehicle registration they don't live anywhere near there, I want the police to find a reason to chat with that person and inquire. even if that means stopping them for some chicken shit pretextual reason.  I don't want them waiting until there's a verifiable crime that they can prove, such as "well someone just chased this guy out of their house after he broke in and assaulted them, now we have enough to try to stop him!"

I do NOT want the police to mind their own business and not bother with what you might see as inconsequential traffic stops.

Where's your card comrad?  That is basically what you are saying...ironic coming from the right.

 

That does sound problematic.  People have all kinds of legitimate reasons for visiting places where they don't ordinarily go.  I'm an avid walker.  Whenever I visit a different town or city, I like to go for long strolls around older neighborhoods to look around.  It sometimes occurs to me that others might wonder who this stranger is, especially when I happen to have a camera with me to get architectural photos.  But I've never once had the police called on me or been stopped.  Based on what I've heard from multiple sources, were I black and did this sort of thing, I would probably not go unchallenged. 

Though I believe that the concept of "white privilege" has often been abused (You're not alone in this, mahagonny!), it's clear that it really is a thing when it comes to who gets to have freedom to go anywhere they please without being challenged or harassed.  White people get the benefit of the doubt and generally go unchallenged.  Black people often don't.  It causes understandable resentment, and it places a responsibility on police to tread carefully when it comes to stopping and challenging "suspicious" characters.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: apl68 on April 22, 2021, 07:36:29 AM
I think it's important to note that Derek Chauvin had a long history of complaints against him, approximately once per year during his nineteen years with the Minneapolis PD, many of which involved the use of excessive force, including choking maneuvers, kneeling with full body weight on prone and handcuffed arrestees, etc.

The histories of both Chauvin and Floyd sound like some sort of literary tragedy, where the ultimate end was foreshadowed all along. If either one of them had been a different kind of person, it wouldn't have turned out that way.

It also would not have happened if Chauvin's superiors had decided that his incorrigible pattern of uses of excessive force merited firing.  Descartes is correct that invalid complaints against police are a common form of petty revenge.  But annual complaints over a period of 19 years?  That's not just bad luck.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 22, 2021, 07:45:13 AM
Folks:  My comment that George Floyd deserved to die was sarcasm.......

'I don't deserve this award, but then again, I have arthritis, and I don't deserve that either.' - Jack Benny

There's no objective thing such as 'what a person deserves.' Ask five people and you get five different answers.

No one is saying he deserved to die. If you ask me, he deserved to get beat up by a bystander who didn't like his attitude, but not so badly as to endanger his life, and the bystander would then deserve to be charged with assault and battery, and then be acquitted, because no one would testify, because they also thought Floyd was a jerk.

(on edit)
Quote
Though I believe that the concept of "white privilege" has often been abused (You're not alone in this, mahagonny!), it's clear that it really is a thing when it comes to who gets to have freedom to go anywhere they please without being challenged or harassed.  White people get the benefit of the doubt and generally go unchallenged.  Black people often don't.  It causes understandable resentment, and it places a responsibility on police to tread carefully when it comes to stopping and challenging "suspicious" characters.

The police are in the catching criminals business. It's never clear to me at all that most of them want a just society. Their primary concern seems to be success and looking like productive employees. If they apprehend 12 criminals a day and an unfair number of them are black, they still have twelve perps on which they can hang a criminal complaint and fill out an incident report that looks legitimate. So it was a good day at work for them.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 22, 2021, 08:00:32 AM
And that's the problem with the police, mahagonny, and why I wholeheartedly support firing them all and starting over from scratch.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Kron3007 on April 22, 2021, 08:07:31 AM
And that's the problem with the police, mahagonny, and why I wholeheartedly support firing them all and starting over from scratch.

Yes, it is weird that mahoganny wrote that in what seems like some sort of support for that mentality when to many that is a big part of the problem. 

They are there to protect and serve, not to be some sort of para-military force to sniff out sleeper cells.   
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: smallcleanrat on April 22, 2021, 08:14:12 AM

Nah.  If someone is casing my neighborhood while everyone is at work, appears to not have a reason to be there, and it is learned from running the vehicle registration they don't live anywhere near there, I want the police to find a reason to chat with that person and inquire. even if that means stopping them for some chicken shit pretextual reason.  I don't want them waiting until there's a verifiable crime that they can prove, such as "well someone just chased this guy out of their house after he broke in and assaulted them, now we have enough to try to stop him!"

I do NOT want the police to mind their own business and not bother with what you might see as inconsequential traffic stops.

Where's your card comrad?  That is basically what you are saying...ironic coming from the right.

 

That does sound problematic.  People have all kinds of legitimate reasons for visiting places where they don't ordinarily go.  I'm an avid walker.  Whenever I visit a different town or city, I like to go for long strolls around older neighborhoods to look around.  It sometimes occurs to me that others might wonder who this stranger is, especially when I happen to have a camera with me to get architectural photos.  But I've never once had the police called on me or been stopped.  Based on what I've heard from multiple sources, were I black and did this sort of thing, I would probably not go unchallenged. 


Yeah, this part of the discussion reminds me of the man from India taking a morning walk in the Alabama neighborhood where he was visiting his son, daughter-in-law, and baby grandson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpiTY3L6ZzY

From the Wikipedia article:
At 9 a.m., Patel was taking a stroll outside his son's house. A man in the neighborhood called 911 reporting that he saw a suspicious looking man lurking on the area and peering into garages. He described Patel as a "skinny black man wearing a toboggan [sic]." In a few minutes Patel was approached by two police officers on a sidewalk. Officer Eric Parker asked Patel for his identification and Patel responded by saying that he did not know English and was from India repeatedly. The video appears to show Parker throwing Patel to the ground face first ninety seconds after the encounter began. His hands also appeared to be behind his back as he was pushed. Patel's family also allege that Patel had his arm twisted by Parker.

The man suffered a spinal injury and was partially paralyzed.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 22, 2021, 08:23:57 AM
I think it's important to note that Derek Chauvin had a long history of complaints against him, approximately once per year during his nineteen years with the Minneapolis PD, many of which involved the use of excessive force, including choking maneuvers, kneeling with full body weight on prone and handcuffed arrestees, etc.

The histories of both Chauvin and Floyd sound like some sort of literary tragedy, where the ultimate end was foreshadowed all along. If either one of them had been a different kind of person, it wouldn't have turned out that way.

It also would not have happened if Chauvin's superiors had decided that his incorrigible pattern of uses of excessive force merited firing.  Descartes is correct that invalid complaints against police are a common form of petty revenge.  But annual complaints over a period of 19 years?  That's not just bad luck.

My point was that it's like a lot of Biblical stories; there's not just one "correct" message in it. If Chauvin had been disciplined or fired, it wouldn't have happened. If George Floyd had not engaged in criminal activity, it wouldn't have happened. However, with a habitual criminal and a cop who habitually uses excessive force, it's pretty much a certainty that when they come into contact, it's not going to end well.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Istiblennius on April 22, 2021, 08:26:56 AM
You make a good point, SCR. In our community there have been quite a few "but the police have never treated me like that" comments from community members in public forums about how to reform our civic agencies. I've also always been treated positively by police. But I also recognize that my treatment may be different from the treatment others get due to the color of my skin and gender identity. This seems to be where many get tripped up. The police are nice to me, so if they aren't nice to someone else it's because that someone is bad. Couldn't possibly because I won some genetic lottery and was born white, cis, neurotypical, the kind of person they are trained to engage with positively.

There's been a lot of commentary on how Floyd and Chauvin both had problematic histories. But one got due process and the other did not. That's not equal treatment under the law and that's unconstitutional.

I've long wondered too if our nation weren't so awash in guns, perhaps the police might not feel this elevated threat level that they use to justify their extra-judicial killings.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 22, 2021, 09:21:03 AM
And that's the problem with the police, mahagonny, and why I wholeheartedly support firing them all and starting over from scratch.

Yes, it is weird that mahoganny wrote that in what seems like some sort of support for that mentality when to many that is a big part of the problem. 

They are there to protect and serve, not to be some sort of para-military force to sniff out sleeper cells.

I thought my analysis was dry, neutral, not in support of the system. That's probably because I don't know what could be done about it.

I have been stopped and interrogated by police at least several times for being in a place that it was thought I shouldn't be. When I was younger I suspect I was stopped for having long hair and being in a different place. After I grew up a little I had short hair and a better attitude and got left alone. A few years ago back when we were all Bush hating liberals a friend of mine residing in Florida had a 'support the troops' sticker on his car. I asked him why. He said 'so the police won't pull me over as much.'
You can't change being black in order to avoid suspicion. I understand this. A black student came to visit me years ago back when I lived in a white neighborhood. The police stopped him. He told me 'I guess they don't know what to do about a black man driving around here.' I understood.
but none of this is any rationale for the sheer stupidity that has infiltrated the media, Hollywood and academia about racial matters. Which, of course, to them, includes every single subject. The only possible good to come of it would be an avalanche of support for republican candidates in 2022.
on edit: oh yeah, and corporate America and professional sports are now getting their spot in the woke virtual signaling floor show. Thankfully a few are coming to the plate to fight this antisocial mania.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Descartes on April 22, 2021, 09:30:43 AM
There's some merit to the discussion happening about the fact that even complaints that are sustained don't result in much discipline or have much impact.  The reason for that is the unions.

I knew a cop who wasn't "bad" in any way in the manner that we are talking about in this conversation.  Most of his co-workers thought he was a bad cop, but he certainly didn't use unjustifiable force on anyone or hassle people without a legal reason.  Doing any of those things would have required him to have been doing something similar to his job.  Usually he was trying to get out of work, sleeping somewhere, or leaving the city without a reason to go visit a friend (or lover or God knows who) in another place.  In fact the thought of this guy using excessive force actually makes me laugh a little out loud.  Excessive force?  Anyone would have settled for him going to a call or making a traffic stop every now and then and not finding reasons to be doing nothing.

My point is this:  They couldn't get rid of this guy.  The union saved his ass every time.  I'd bet you that the Minneapolis union saved Chauvin's a few times too.

If you want people held to the type of standard they are in almost any other job, the unions need to go.  FWIW I see the same problem among teachers.  Obviously in that case excessive force isn't the issue, but rather a myriad of other problems that can't be properly addressed due to unions.


New topic:  regarding disparate treatment.  Everyone assumes that white people or whatever class you're talking about has never been treated a certain way by cops.  I had a cop be pretty verbally aggressive with me once.  I won't bore you with all the details but I politely held my ground but also did everything I was told, knowing that if I was ultimately arrested the courtroom is the place to argue not the side of the road.  I called him "sir," while also telling him that he was mistaken about his assumptions.  Based on the way he acted and talked, I am pretty confident that if I had acted the way Floyd did or so many others have and become argumentative, started resisting, or otherwise lost my cool, I would have been in handcuffs face down on the street.  This guy was looking for a reason, but I didn't give it to him.  The end result was he drove away somewhat obviously annoyed that he didn't get the arrest he wanted and I drove away and called him an asshole after the fact.  Nobody ended up in a fight and nobody died.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: marshwiggle on April 22, 2021, 10:24:39 AM
New topic:  regarding disparate treatment.  Everyone assumes that white people or whatever class you're talking about has never been treated a certain way by cops.  I had a cop be pretty verbally aggressive with me once.  I won't bore you with all the details but I politely held my ground but also did everything I was told, knowing that if I was ultimately arrested the courtroom is the place to argue not the side of the road.  I called him "sir," while also telling him that he was mistaken about his assumptions.  Based on the way he acted and talked, I am pretty confident that if I had acted the way Floyd did or so many others have and become argumentative, started resisting, or otherwise lost my cool, I would have been in handcuffs face down on the street.  This guy was looking for a reason, but I didn't give it to him.  The end result was he drove away somewhat obviously annoyed that he didn't get the arrest he wanted and I drove away and called him an asshole after the fact.  Nobody ended up in a fight and nobody died.


An interesting prespective fromGlenn Loury & John McWhorter (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpTqmfrFlHk)
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Kron3007 on April 22, 2021, 10:39:51 AM
There's some merit to the discussion happening about the fact that even complaints that are sustained don't result in much discipline or have much impact.  The reason for that is the unions.

I knew a cop who wasn't "bad" in any way in the manner that we are talking about in this conversation.  Most of his co-workers thought he was a bad cop, but he certainly didn't use unjustifiable force on anyone or hassle people without a legal reason.  Doing any of those things would have required him to have been doing something similar to his job.  Usually he was trying to get out of work, sleeping somewhere, or leaving the city without a reason to go visit a friend (or lover or God knows who) in another place.  In fact the thought of this guy using excessive force actually makes me laugh a little out loud.  Excessive force?  Anyone would have settled for him going to a call or making a traffic stop every now and then and not finding reasons to be doing nothing.

My point is this:  They couldn't get rid of this guy.  The union saved his ass every time.  I'd bet you that the Minneapolis union saved Chauvin's a few times too.

If you want people held to the type of standard they are in almost any other job, the unions need to go.  FWIW I see the same problem among teachers.  Obviously in that case excessive force isn't the issue, but rather a myriad of other problems that can't be properly addressed due to unions.


New topic:  regarding disparate treatment.  Everyone assumes that white people or whatever class you're talking about has never been treated a certain way by cops.  I had a cop be pretty verbally aggressive with me once.  I won't bore you with all the details but I politely held my ground but also did everything I was told, knowing that if I was ultimately arrested the courtroom is the place to argue not the side of the road.  I called him "sir," while also telling him that he was mistaken about his assumptions.  Based on the way he acted and talked, I am pretty confident that if I had acted the way Floyd did or so many others have and become argumentative, started resisting, or otherwise lost my cool, I would have been in handcuffs face down on the street.  This guy was looking for a reason, but I didn't give it to him.  The end result was he drove away somewhat obviously annoyed that he didn't get the arrest he wanted and I drove away and called him an asshole after the fact.  Nobody ended up in a fight and nobody died.

I am white and do not assume that at all.  I have had cops give me a hard time, but have also seen how they treat me shift as I have grown older.  For example, when I was a teen they would regularly stop and search us, which is technically illegal but what could we do.  I would now refuse out of principle, but I had friends at the time have bad outcomes when they did so back then (even as white males).  This alone shows me that they do indeed treat you differently based on your appearance.

The real question in your situation is how would they have treated you if you were not a white male?  Perhaps they would have found a reason to escalate despite your cooperation, or perhaps not.  Regardless, the fact that you have been given a hard time and ultimately released without incident does not really provide the support you seem to think it does.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: apl68 on April 22, 2021, 11:09:00 AM
There's some merit to the discussion happening about the fact that even complaints that are sustained don't result in much discipline or have much impact.  The reason for that is the unions.

I knew a cop who wasn't "bad" in any way in the manner that we are talking about in this conversation.  Most of his co-workers thought he was a bad cop, but he certainly didn't use unjustifiable force on anyone or hassle people without a legal reason.  Doing any of those things would have required him to have been doing something similar to his job.  Usually he was trying to get out of work, sleeping somewhere, or leaving the city without a reason to go visit a friend (or lover or God knows who) in another place.  In fact the thought of this guy using excessive force actually makes me laugh a little out loud.  Excessive force?  Anyone would have settled for him going to a call or making a traffic stop every now and then and not finding reasons to be doing nothing.

My point is this:  They couldn't get rid of this guy.  The union saved his ass every time.  I'd bet you that the Minneapolis union saved Chauvin's a few times too.

If you want people held to the type of standard they are in almost any other job, the unions need to go.  FWIW I see the same problem among teachers.  Obviously in that case excessive force isn't the issue, but rather a myriad of other problems that can't be properly addressed due to unions.

Some police reformers have made this connection as well.  I'd like to see them doing more of this, and de-escalating the "defund the police" rhetoric.  A specific, do-able solution can go a lot farther in helping than wild rhetoric that will only have the effect of provoking a backlash against efforts to deal with a legitimate problem.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 22, 2021, 11:14:00 AM
There's some merit to the discussion happening about the fact that even complaints that are sustained don't result in much discipline or have much impact.  The reason for that is the unions.

I knew a cop who wasn't "bad" in any way in the manner that we are talking about in this conversation.  Most of his co-workers thought he was a bad cop, but he certainly didn't use unjustifiable force on anyone or hassle people without a legal reason.  Doing any of those things would have required him to have been doing something similar to his job.  Usually he was trying to get out of work, sleeping somewhere, or leaving the city without a reason to go visit a friend (or lover or God knows who) in another place.  In fact the thought of this guy using excessive force actually makes me laugh a little out loud.  Excessive force?  Anyone would have settled for him going to a call or making a traffic stop every now and then and not finding reasons to be doing nothing.

My point is this:  They couldn't get rid of this guy.  The union saved his ass every time.  I'd bet you that the Minneapolis union saved Chauvin's a few times too.

If you want people held to the type of standard they are in almost any other job, the unions need to go.  FWIW I see the same problem among teachers.  Obviously in that case excessive force isn't the issue, but rather a myriad of other problems that can't be properly addressed due to unions.


Good luck getting any traction with that accurate observation. The tenure track, which is of course the source of the 'anti-racism' religious dogma, also loves their unions. So here we are.
Corruption.
Quote
An interesting prespective fromGlenn Loury & John McWhorter

Good luck getting any traction with this truth. Academia surely knows that the public health menace is not police, but black-on-black crime. Why don't they write and talk about this (Outside of Loury, McWhorter, Steele and a few others)? Nothing in it for them.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Kron3007 on April 22, 2021, 12:03:47 PM
There's some merit to the discussion happening about the fact that even complaints that are sustained don't result in much discipline or have much impact.  The reason for that is the unions.

I knew a cop who wasn't "bad" in any way in the manner that we are talking about in this conversation.  Most of his co-workers thought he was a bad cop, but he certainly didn't use unjustifiable force on anyone or hassle people without a legal reason.  Doing any of those things would have required him to have been doing something similar to his job.  Usually he was trying to get out of work, sleeping somewhere, or leaving the city without a reason to go visit a friend (or lover or God knows who) in another place.  In fact the thought of this guy using excessive force actually makes me laugh a little out loud.  Excessive force?  Anyone would have settled for him going to a call or making a traffic stop every now and then and not finding reasons to be doing nothing.

My point is this:  They couldn't get rid of this guy.  The union saved his ass every time.  I'd bet you that the Minneapolis union saved Chauvin's a few times too.

If you want people held to the type of standard they are in almost any other job, the unions need to go.  FWIW I see the same problem among teachers.  Obviously in that case excessive force isn't the issue, but rather a myriad of other problems that can't be properly addressed due to unions.


Good luck getting any traction with that accurate observation. The tenure track, which is of course the source of the 'anti-racism' religious dogma, also loves their unions. So here we are.
Corruption.
Quote
An interesting prespective fromGlenn Loury & John McWhorter

Good luck getting any traction with this truth. Academia surely knows that the public health menace is not police, but black-on-black crime. Why don't they write and talk about this (Outside of Loury, McWhorter, Steele and a few others)? Nothing in it for them.

Aren't you always going on about how great unions are and how much you need one? 

I agree that the police unions are part of the problem, but it is only one piece of the puzzle.  Other countries also have police unions, but dont murder nearly as many citizens.

 
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 22, 2021, 02:25:41 PM

Aren't you always going on about how great unions are and how much you need one? 

I agree that the police unions are part of the problem, but it is only one piece of the puzzle.  Other countries also have police unions, but dont murder nearly as many citizens.

Sure I am. I support adjunct unions with words, dues, and labor. What choice do I have? The tenure track has had one for thirty years longer than we have, and it has the reinforcement of the provisions of tenure and promotion to consolidate power with. In that setting the only thing that makes sense is to have an adjunct union, little though it may be able to do. All adjunct unions in the USA combined together are still a very small reason that democratic, pro-union politicians are able to raise enough money to get themselves elected. The big money makers, police, tenure track faculty, government administrators and others contribute much more to the campaigns and as a result the politicians cater to them and their material interests. No democratic politician that I can remember has ever even uttered the term 'adjunct college faculty' anywhere near a functioning microphone.
Tenure track unions are of course partly there to protect tenured faculty from each other.
None of this means the existence of unions in the USA provides more equity to society in general. It just means unions are the lay of the land and you'd better have one or you're double-screwed.

The permanent, salaried and benefitted higher education professoriate will never, ever raise questions about the legitimacy or ethics of police unions.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 22, 2021, 03:38:38 PM


The permanent, salaried and benefitted higher education professoriate will never, ever raise questions about the legitimacy or ethics of police unions.

I know several who have and do, and are very vocal activists on that (and the prison abolition) front.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: lightning on April 22, 2021, 04:11:41 PM


The permanent, salaried and benefitted higher education professoriate will never, ever raise questions about the legitimacy or ethics of police unions.

I know several who have and do, and are very vocal activists on that (and the prison abolition) front.

Mahagonny, once again you are wrong.

For starters, check out Paul Butler, a law professor at Georgetown University, has a nice little bit about police unions (about how they get in the way of reforms). It's on NPR.

Then check out the peer-reviewed article by Stephen Rushin (Assistant Professor at University of Alabama) article in the Duke Law Journal, v.66 n. 6 (March 2017) where he discusses collective bargaining agreements limiting police accountability.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 23, 2021, 04:34:35 PM
Quote
The police are in the catching criminals business. It's never clear to me at all that most of them want a just society. Their primary concern seems to be success and looking like productive employees. If they apprehend 12 criminals a day and an unfair number of them are black, they still have twelve perps on which they can hang a criminal complaint and fill out an incident report that looks legitimate. So it was a good day at work for them.

And that's the problem with the police, mahagonny, and why I wholeheartedly support firing them all and starting over from scratch.

If we wanted to we could apply that standard to all jobs held by Americans. Who's going to work every day thinking fervently about how to make the world a fairer place, and who's thinking about either (1) how to do it well enough to keep it by the measures that your immediate supervisor uses, or (2) how to do it well enough by the measures applied to get a promotion and a raise over the just-good-enough guy next to you. Sounds like fun, right?



The permanent, salaried and benefitted higher education professoriate will never, ever raise questions about the legitimacy or ethics of police unions.

I know several who have and do, and are very vocal activists on that (and the prison abolition) front.

Mahagonny, once again you are wrong.

For starters, check out Paul Butler, a law professor at Georgetown University, has a nice little bit about police unions (about how they get in the way of reforms). It's on NPR.

Then check out the peer-reviewed article by Stephen Rushin (Assistant Professor at University of Alabama) article in the Duke Law Journal, v.66 n. 6 (March 2017) where he discusses collective bargaining agreements limiting police accountability.

I took a look. Pretty interesting. But they're not making much of a splash with this publishing, are they?
How do you say 'sure, unions can be corrupt, but not ours. Theirs.' Easier to say 'union yes' and one hand washes the other. Or throw and adjunct to the lions. Nobody knows the difference anyway.

https://dcist.com/story/21/03/11/georgetown-law-professor-fired-after-racist-black-student-performance/


Quote
There's some merit to the discussion happening about the fact that even complaints that are sustained don't result in much discipline or have much impact.  The reason for that is the unions.

I knew a cop who wasn't "bad" in any way in the manner that we are talking about in this conversation.  Most of his co-workers thought he was a bad cop, but he certainly didn't use unjustifiable force on anyone or hassle people without a legal reason.  Doing any of those things would have required him to have been doing something similar to his job.  Usually he was trying to get out of work, sleeping somewhere, or leaving the city without a reason to go visit a friend (or lover or God knows who) in another place.  In fact the thought of this guy using excessive force actually makes me laugh a little out loud.  Excessive force?  Anyone would have settled for him going to a call or making a traffic stop every now and then and not finding reasons to be doing nothing.

My point is this:  They couldn't get rid of this guy.  The union saved his ass every time.  I'd bet you that the Minneapolis union saved Chauvin's a few times too.

If you want people held to the type of standard they are in almost any other job, the unions need to go.  FWIW I see the same problem among teachers.  Obviously in that case excessive force isn't the issue, but rather a myriad of other problems that can't be properly addressed due to unions.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: lightning on April 26, 2021, 05:01:01 AM
Oh, just cut it out, Mahagonny. You're playing your hackneyed hand of attempting to establish equivalency/hypocrisy/complicity to distract and mitigate.

One can be union and/or TT in higher ed and still take a stand against unions in other professions that are mis-using their power (in the case under discussion, the police union). And that's what the two links that I posted are about.

Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 26, 2021, 03:14:33 PM
Not only one can, but two can.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: lightning on April 26, 2021, 06:35:42 PM
Not only one can, but two can.

You started a haiku, with a finished first line. Add four syllables to the second line and a 3rd line with five syllables, then you can post to the Friday haiku thread and actually have something meaningful to contribute to the fora.

If you don't finish your haiku by Friday, I will finish it for you and post it on Friday, with both of us as authors. My completion of your haiku would go something like,

Not only one can,
But two can -- stand up with me,
Breathe, Black Lives Matter.

by Mahagonny & Lightning



Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Hegemony on April 26, 2021, 07:01:22 PM
Hahaha, love it! Lightning strikes again.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on April 27, 2021, 12:34:04 AM
Not only one can, but two can.

You started a haiku, with a finished first line. Add four syllables to the second line and a 3rd line with five syllables, then you can post to the Friday haiku thread and actually have something meaningful to contribute to the fora.

If you don't finish your haiku by Friday, I will finish it for you and post it on Friday, with both of us as authors. My completion of your haiku would go something like,

Not only one can,
But two can -- stand up with me,
Breathe, Black Lives Matter.

by Mahagonny & Lightning

I don't think we are ready to write poetry together at this time. However, there is something we could collaborate on. Stay tuned!
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on May 05, 2021, 06:17:12 AM
Nelson requests another trial and an impeachment of the verdict.

https://hayspost.com/posts/96973746-0539-444e-9ee2-4db59f5dd9d8
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on May 05, 2021, 09:25:08 AM
Nelson requests another trial and an impeachment of the verdict.

https://hayspost.com/posts/96973746-0539-444e-9ee2-4db59f5dd9d8

The lawyer is doing what he's supposed to do, but the bar to overturn a jury's verdict is high. So don't get your hopes up Mahagonny.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 05, 2021, 09:36:29 AM
Nelson requests another trial and an impeachment of the verdict.

https://hayspost.com/posts/96973746-0539-444e-9ee2-4db59f5dd9d8

The lawyer is doing what he's supposed to do, but the bar to overturn a jury's verdict is high. So don't get your hopes up Mahagonny.

And normally this is a years-long (often decades-long) process. It's easy to go to prison, but once you're in, getting out is very hard. Even if you're innocent, which he isn't.
Title: Re: The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25
Post by: mahagonny on May 05, 2021, 09:50:54 AM
Nelson requests another trial and an impeachment of the verdict.

https://hayspost.com/posts/96973746-0539-444e-9ee2-4db59f5dd9d8

The lawyer is doing what he's supposed to do, but the bar to overturn a jury's verdict is high. So don't get your hopes up Mahagonny.

Oh, no, I don't think they will be successful, nor do I feel sorry about Chauvin going to jail. And I hate to disappoint you. I know you're itching to find someone who thinks Chauvin should escape without legal consequences so you can tell them off. Maybe surf around facebook till you find someone who's wrong and square off?
But that doesn't mean Nelson's complaints are entirely without merit. I would have thought if ever there was a time for a change of venue and a sequestered jury it would be this time. In fact not long ago forumites were speculating where it would be held.
And, BTW, it's just news. You don't need to get excited.