This is dated Dec. 2, 2023 in my inbox, so I am not sure when it was published----today or December 2?
Anyway...
New York Times Opinion: I Teach the Humanities, and I Still Don't Know What Their Value Is (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/02/opinion/education-humanities-college-value.html)
QuoteWe humanists keep on trying to teach people what the value of the humanities is, and people keep failing to learn our lessons. This suggests to me that humanists do not know the value of the thing they are trying to defend. We can spout pieties that sound inspiring to those already convinced of our cause, but so too can an ignorant math teacher "teach" math to those who already know it.
A great quote:
QuoteA defensive mind-set also encourages politicization. If the study of literature or philosophy helps to fight sexism and racism or to promote democracy and free speech — and everyone agrees that sexism and racism are bad and democracy and free speech are good — then you have your answer as to why we shouldn't cut funding for the study of literature or philosophy. Politicization is a way of arming the humanities for its political battles, but it comes at an intellectual cost. Why are sexism and racism so bad? Why is democracy so good? Politicization silences these and other questions, whereas the function of the humanities is to raise them.
Waiting for Wahoo to jump in and tell Marshy why they're wrong...
Quote from: waterboy on February 29, 2024, 12:20:30 PMWaiting for Wahoo to jump in and tell Marshy why they're wrong...
Me too :)
???
I don't see that Marshy posted anything I disagree with.
I don't see that it's politicization that silences them. Those are topics that are always political--they are, after all, topics in social and political philosophy. Philosophers are quite happy to wade into deeply divisive political issues and do what we can to shed some light and teach people how to approach the issues. (As evidence, consider that pretty much every applied ethics course in the US covers abortion, and has done so for decades.)
It's the shuttering of departments that does the silencing, or the passing of laws making it illegal to teach the stuff.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 01, 2024, 07:38:28 AM???
I don't see that Marshy posted anything I disagree with.
Based on our recent discussions, I'd guess
how to raise a question like "What is hate?", rather than
providing a definitive answer, would be something we'd probably disagree on.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 01, 2024, 09:28:29 AMQuote from: Wahoo Redux on March 01, 2024, 07:38:28 AM???
I don't see that Marshy posted anything I disagree with.
Based on our recent discussions, I'd guess how to raise a question like "What is hate?", rather than providing a definitive answer, would be something we'd probably disagree on.
Here you go folks. Popcorn time. But hey, at least the Old Narnian engages in things!
Quotehate
verb
feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone).
"the boys hate each other"
Similar:
loathe
detest
dislike greatly
abhor
abominate
despise
execrate
feel aversion toward
feel revulsion toward
feel hostile toward
be repelled by
be revolted by
regard with disgust
not be able to bear/stand
be unable to stomach
find intolerable
shudder at
recoil from
shrink from
hate someone's guts
disrelish
Opposite:
love
like
noun
intense or passionate dislike.
"feelings of hate and revenge"
Similar:
loathing
hatred
detestation
dislike
distaste
abhorrence
abomination
execration
resentment
aversion
hostility
ill will
ill feeling
I don't think you hate the humanities, Marshy, although in the past you have displayed a rather passionate desire to point out where humanities faculty fail in some regard.
This article is about having an "open mind." Your own excerpt says this. Even more importantly----
QuoteA defensive mind-set also encourages politicization.
What we might consider is how open one's mind is to examining one's self and the "intense or passionate dislike" for a thing or idea. If there is no good, prudent, provable reason for intense or passionate dislike, it is probably mindless hate----or something one has been taught to hate.
Critical thinking: Humanities 101.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 01, 2024, 09:51:21 AMThis article is about having an "open mind." Your own excerpt says this. Even more importantly----
QuoteA defensive mind-set also encourages politicization.
What we might consider is how open one's mind is to examining one's self and the "intense or passionate dislike" for a thing or idea. If there is no good, prudent, provable reason for intense or passionate dislike, it is probably mindless hate----or something one has been taught to hate.
Critical thinking: Humanities 101.
So for all of the humanities people out there, is Wahoo correct that I fail Critical Thinking 101?
HATE SONG, from THE MAD SHOW
There are certain facts of life that can upset you
Of course I never let them cross my path
We made our mothers take us out of Psycho
When Janet Leigh was bleeding in the bath
Altho I've never watched "The Man from UNCLE."
I know I wouldn't like it if I did
I saw a scene or two from "Mary Poppins"
I think it's too sadistic for a kid.
Hate, bloodshed, ev'rywhere you turn
When will our parents learn
It isn't what we yearn for
Love, kindness, peace in ev'ry land.
It's these for which we stand
So hand in hand in hand
We're gonna stamp out hate
That's our creed
Wipe out violence, intolerance and greed
We're gonna start right now
Tomorrow is too late
We're gonna stamp out hate.
We're gonna stamp out hate
Stamp it in the ground
Then take happiness and spread it all around
We'll put an end to grief
We can hardly wait
We're gonna stamp out hate.
We're gonna stamp out hate
Sock it in the eye
Shoot it in the stomach yelling "Die die die°
We'll pull its insides out
And look at what it ate.
We're gonna stamp out hate.
We're gonna stamp out hate.
Lash it with a switch
Amputate its arms and legs and see how long they twitch
We'll put its toes on hooks
And dangle them for bait
We're gonna stamp out hate.
We're gonna stamp out hate
Show him who's the boss
Take him up a lonely hill and nail him to a cross
Won't it be kicks to watch
The blood coagulate
We're gonna stamp out hate.
We're gonna stamp out hate
Poke it with a pick
Chill it till it's solid then we'll sell it on a stick
We're gonna stamp out hate
Kill without a trace
Stick a finger up its nose and pull it off his face
We're gonna stamp out hate
Lynch him with a rope
Find a Nazi doctor who can boil him down for soap
We'll pull his teeth right out
And sell the silverplate —
"Ladies and gentlemen, in these troubled times,
I think there's a lesson to be learned from these
Dedicated young people, getting together on a stage—"
(BOYS and GIRLS slowly turn to him, advance on him as
He retreats and menace him with knife, rope, etc.
He is then stabbed. As he falls, the others slowly
Turn away and whistle "We're Gonna Stamp Out Hate."
I will give myself full credit for saying to my friend Marsh, "Give out hate, get hate back."
QuoteHe is then stabbed. As he falls, the others slowly
Turn away and whistle
There you go.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 01, 2024, 12:14:42 PMI will give myself full credit for saying to my friend Marsh, "Give out hate, get hate back."
QuoteHe is then stabbed. As he falls, the others slowly
Turn away and whistle
There you go.
So who's the moral champion in this scenario?
National Brotherhood Week, by Tom Lehrer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIlJ8ZCs4jY)
Oh, the white folks hate the black folks
And the black folks hate the white folks
To hate all but the right folks
Is an old established rule
But during
National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week
Lena Horne and Sheriff Clark are dancing cheek to cheek
It's fun to eulogize the people you despise
As long you don't let them in your school
Oh, the poor folks, hate the rich folks
And the rich folks hate the poor folks
All of my folks hate all of your folks
It's American as apple pie
But during
National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans cause it's very chic
Step up and shake the hand of someone you can't stand
You can tolerate him if you try
Oh the Protestants hate the Catholics
And the Catholics hate the Protestants
And the Hindus hate the Muslims
And everybody hates the Jews
But during
National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week
It's National Everyone-Smile-At-One-Another-hood Week
Be nice to people who are inferior to you
It's only for a week so have no fear
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 01, 2024, 12:51:29 PMQuote from: Wahoo Redux on March 01, 2024, 12:14:42 PMI will give myself full credit for saying to my friend Marsh, "Give out hate, get hate back."
QuoteHe is then stabbed. As he falls, the others slowly
Turn away and whistle
There you go.
So who's the moral champion in this scenario?
Neither, buddy.
I know you see the world in simple dichotomies, but that's not the point of the song.
If you let hate out, hate proliferates. And pretty soon the non-haters become neo-haters.
The point of the song is "don't hate!"
Don't hate the drag queen in the library. Let her do her thing.
Big-D was brilliant to point that out.
The ink is black, the page is white
Together we learn to read and write
A child is black, a child is white
The whole world looks upon the sight
A beautiful sight
And now a child can understand
That this is the law of all the land
All the land
The world is black, the world is white
It turns by day and then by night
A child is black, a child is white
Together they grow to see the light
To see the light
And now, at last, we plainly see
We'll have a dance of liberty
Liberty
The world is black, the world is white
It turns by day and then by night
A child is black, a child is white
The whole world looks upon the sight
A beautiful sight
The world is black, the world is white
It turns by day and then by night
A child is black, a child is white
Together they grow to see the light
To see the light
The world is black, the world is white
It turns by day and then by night
A child is black, a child is white
The whole world looks upon the sight
A beautiful sight
The world is black, the world is white
It turns by day and then by night
A child is black, a child is white
Together they grow to see the light
To see the light
C'mon
Get it
Get it
Ohh-ohhhh yeah
Yeah
Keep it up now, around the world
Little boys and little girls
Yeah
Yeah-eah, oh-ohhh
There is no one definite value to all the humanities. Don't ask the question.
Each discipline has its own value (Emphasize discipline), and all together
they provide some rigor and intellectual achievement, broadly said. The content itself
not be important as the process of tackling an unknown written material with new vocabulary and
ways of figuring out problems that they pose. The content will be forgotten soon
but the quality of rigorous thinking remains for a while. This is a favorable case scenario--
in the common worst case, little/nothing is recalled with no intelligent rigor remaining.
So when students cheat, they cheat themselves. When the course is too easy, no learning occurs.
Quote from: Myword on March 11, 2024, 01:21:15 PMThere is no one definite value to all the humanities. Don't ask the question.
So is the only answer to effectively offer people "Trust us; we know what we're doing."?
QuoteEach discipline has its own value (Emphasize discipline), and all together
they provide some rigor and intellectual achievement, broadly said. The content itself
not be important as the process of tackling an unknown written material with new vocabulary and
ways of figuring out problems that they pose. The content will be forgotten soon
but the quality of rigorous thinking remains for a while. This is a favorable case scenario--
in the common worst case, little/nothing is recalled with no intelligent rigor remaining.
So when students cheat, they cheat themselves. When the course is too easy, no learning occurs.
So who can decide when a course is too easy, if everyone gets to decides for themselves what they do?
When people in other professions (doctors, lawyers, etc.) say people should just trust them to know what they're doing and that they don't need any oversight, other people (including academics) argue otherwise. Who should provide oversight to academics? Or is academia entirely unique among professions as requiring nothing of the sort?
What the hell are you talking about, Marshburger?
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 12, 2024, 07:49:05 AMWhat the hell are you talking about, Marshburger?
As I said, in any other profession, when people say that no-one else should try to regulate or evaluate them, the public finds it hard to swallow, and academics typically agree with that. It shouldn't come as a surprise that when academics make that claim for
themselves, the public will be skeptical as well.
I don't think continuing to say "Just trust us; we know what we're doing" is going to build the kind of public trust that people need in an industry like academia where
public support, i.e. funding,
is essential.
I don't have any answers, but the status quo response is pretty clearly failing.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 12, 2024, 08:05:47 AMQuote from: Wahoo Redux on March 12, 2024, 07:49:05 AMWhat the hell are you talking about, Marshburger?
As I said, in any other profession, when people say that no-one else should try to regulate or evaluate them, the public finds it hard to swallow, and academics typically agree with that. It shouldn't come as a surprise that when academics make that claim for themselves, the public will be skeptical as well.
I don't think continuing to say "Just trust us; we know what we're doing" is going to build the kind of public trust that people need in an industry like academia where public support, i.e. funding, is essential.
I don't have any answers, but the status quo response is pretty clearly failing.
No one said anything like what you are asking about.
The "status quo" is failing because of the expense of college, the perception of "ROI" on college degrees, and a lot of negative and misdirected press.
Where have you been for the last decade, son? This has been gone over ad nauseum.
I never suggested the idea "trust us, we know what we're doing", but that is the attitude and position of professionals and non-professionals alike. Some professions like medicine dictate when courses are too easy, but not in the humanities. No general standard exists, except some colleges adopt a Great Books program. I taught in this program
long time ago. It provides some structure and many students fail.
For context:
Public Trust in Higher Ed Has Plummeted. Yes, Again. (https://www.chronicle.com/article/public-trust-in-higher-ed-has-plummeted-yes-again)
QuoteFive years ago, roughly half of people surveyed by Gallup expressed confidence in colleges and universities. That share has dwindled to just over one third, according to a new poll released Tuesday. Since 2015, confidence in higher ed has fallen by 21 percentage points.
In the world of public-opinion polling, that's a "pretty precipitous" drop, said Zach Hrynowski, a research consultant at Gallup.
And here it's about journalists, but perhaps telling:
U.S. journalists differ from the public in their views of 'bothsidesism' in journalism (https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/07/13/u-s-journalists-differ-from-the-public-in-their-views-of-bothsidesism-in-journalism/)
QuoteJournalists in the United States differ markedly from the general public in their views of "bothsidesism" – whether journalists should always strive to give equal coverage to all sides of an issue – according to a recent Pew Research Center study. A little more than half of the journalists surveyed (55%) say that every side does not always deserve equal coverage in the news. By contrast, 22% of Americans overall say the same, whereas about three-quarters (76%) say journalists should always strive to give all sides equal coverage.
That gap between what the public expects versus what the people who they are supposed to be able to count on for the truth is stark.
The CHE story is behind a paywall, but the Gallup Poll it refers to is here:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/508352/americans-confidence-higher-education-down-sharply.aspx
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 14, 2024, 08:33:36 AMThe CHE story is behind a paywall, but the Gallup Poll it refers to is here:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/508352/americans-confidence-higher-education-down-sharply.aspx
One interesting point is that over that period, people
with a postgraduate degree have gone from 67% to 50% having "a great deal" or "quite a lot" of confidence in higher education.
That should give pause, since those are the people who valued it enough to invest a significant chunk of their time and money to pursue it themselves.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 14, 2024, 11:12:14 AMOne interesting point is that over that period, people with a postgraduate degree have gone from 67% to 50% having "a great deal" or "quite a lot" of confidence in higher education.
That should give pause, since those are the people who valued it enough to invest a significant chunk of their time and money to pursue it themselves.
Perhaps they have seen uneducated dolts coming out of the system lately, and are opining on the education those people got rather than their own.