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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 10:40:35 AM

Title: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 10:40:35 AM
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-space-based-solar-power-ready-for-its-moment-in-the-sun/
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 10:56:42 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 10:40:35 AM
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-space-based-solar-power-ready-for-its-moment-in-the-sun/

The article doesn't seem to mention a basic physics problem/tradeoff. For solar cells to be able to beam power to a specific point on Earth, they need to be in geosynchronous orbit, which is far out. If they're orbiting near the earth, then they will be beaming a swath of power (think a garotte) around the earth.

In either case, beaming huge amounts of power (so it's worthwhile) poses a grave risk as any variation in targeting could basically fry all kinds of stuff on the ground.


If military space-based lasers sound scary, why don't civilian *lasers that are much more powerful and always on?

(*Masers, if they're using microwave frequencies)
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: dismalist on November 17, 2022, 11:07:19 AM
Quote"The historical objection to SBSP has been economics, principally the matter of launch cost," Jaffe says. "I think the verdict is still out on whether or not it's going to make economic sense. There is still plenty of grid technology development that needs to happen to get to the level of resilience and supply that we want to enjoy."

No shit, Jack.

Backstopping technology is nuclear. Get used to it.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:21:12 AM
I think the point of the article is that it's getting close to becoming economically feasible.

As to marshwiggle's concern, isn't geosynchronous doable?
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 11:26:18 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:21:12 AM
I think the point of the article is that it's getting close to becoming economically feasible.

As to marshwiggle's concern, isn't geosynchronous doable?

Think William Tell. I'll put a guy on a mountaintop with a rifle. You stand there with an apple on your head. If he shoots the aple, you get $100. Good deal?

(Geosynchronous orbit is a mountaintop VERY far away.)
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:35:10 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 11:26:18 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:21:12 AM
I think the point of the article is that it's getting close to becoming economically feasible.

As to marshwiggle's concern, isn't geosynchronous doable?

Think William Tell. I'll put a guy on a mountaintop with a rifle. You stand there with an apple on your head. If he shoots the aple, you get $100. Good deal?

(Geosynchronous orbit is a mountaintop VERY far away.)

Depends on the guy:)

Yes it is far away. But, we're getting closer to capability with Artemis and all the private efforts to create affordability, yes?
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: nebo113 on November 17, 2022, 11:42:41 AM
Quote from: dismalist on November 17, 2022, 11:07:19 AM
Quote"The historical objection to SBSP has been economics, principally the matter of launch cost," Jaffe says. "I think the verdict is still out on whether or not it's going to make economic sense. There is still plenty of grid technology development that needs to happen to get to the level of resilience and supply that we want to enjoy."

No shit, Jack.

Backstopping technology is nuclear. Get used to it.

Are you saying that more focus needs to be on nuclear development to supply energy?  Just want to make sure I understand your point.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 11:46:38 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:35:10 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 11:26:18 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:21:12 AM
I think the point of the article is that it's getting close to becoming economically feasible.

As to marshwiggle's concern, isn't geosynchronous doable?

Think William Tell. I'll put a guy on a mountaintop with a rifle. You stand there with an apple on your head. If he shoots the aple, you get $100. Good deal?

(Geosynchronous orbit is a mountaintop VERY far away.)

Depends on the guy:)

Yes it is far away. But, we're getting closer to capability with Artemis and all the private efforts to create affordability, yes?

Ah, because as long as it's "affordable" we don't have to worry about technical glitches resulting in hot-knife-through-butter across swaths of the planet. Or of any *hacker figuring out how to do that on purpose.


*including those funded by other nations.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: dismalist on November 17, 2022, 11:47:50 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on November 17, 2022, 11:42:41 AM
Quote from: dismalist on November 17, 2022, 11:07:19 AM
Quote"The historical objection to SBSP has been economics, principally the matter of launch cost," Jaffe says. "I think the verdict is still out on whether or not it's going to make economic sense. There is still plenty of grid technology development that needs to happen to get to the level of resilience and supply that we want to enjoy."

No shit, Jack.

Backstopping technology is nuclear. Get used to it.

Are you saying that more focus needs to be on nuclear development to supply energy?  Just want to make sure I understand your point.

There's no development needed, though it is welcome. A backstopping technology, if it exists, means there is no point developing an energy source more expensive than it.

Go nuclear, young [wo]man, go nuclear! :-)
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:54:11 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 11:46:38 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:35:10 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 11:26:18 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:21:12 AM
I think the point of the article is that it's getting close to becoming economically feasible.

As to marshwiggle's concern, isn't geosynchronous doable?

Think William Tell. I'll put a guy on a mountaintop with a rifle. You stand there with an apple on your head. If he shoots the aple, you get $100. Good deal?

(Geosynchronous orbit is a mountaintop VERY far away.)

Depends on the guy:)

Yes it is far away. But, we're getting closer to capability with Artemis and all the private efforts to create affordability, yes?

Ah, because as long as it's "affordable" we don't have to worry about technical glitches resulting in hot-knife-through-butter across swaths of the planet. Or of any *hacker figuring out how to do that on purpose.


*including those funded by other nations.

I would be worried, yes. If geosynchronous is possible in the near future, what uses would you like to see for it?

dismalist: I'm still holding out hope for innovations in fusion and hydrogen-electric. I see nuclear as an until something better (and to echo marsh, safer) is widely available.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: Hibush on November 17, 2022, 11:59:55 AM
Moving the electicity to earth is the hard part of course. If only there were a technology that would allow us to move the energy in the form of photons, and then capture them from the earth's surface. Have nature do all the hard work for you.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 12:04:01 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:54:11 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 11:46:38 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:35:10 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 11:26:18 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:21:12 AM
I think the point of the article is that it's getting close to becoming economically feasible.

As to marshwiggle's concern, isn't geosynchronous doable?

Think William Tell. I'll put a guy on a mountaintop with a rifle. You stand there with an apple on your head. If he shoots the aple, you get $100. Good deal?

(Geosynchronous orbit is a mountaintop VERY far away.)

Depends on the guy:)

Yes it is far away. But, we're getting closer to capability with Artemis and all the private efforts to create affordability, yes?

Ah, because as long as it's "affordable" we don't have to worry about technical glitches resulting in hot-knife-through-butter across swaths of the planet. Or of any *hacker figuring out how to do that on purpose.


*including those funded by other nations.

I would be worried, yes. If geosynchronous is possible in the near future, what uses would you like to see for it?


Geosynchronous orbit gets used for all kinds of stuff now. But communication power-level radio signals are literally orders-of-magnitude different from gigawatt (or more!) grid-scale power being beamed to theoretically hit a microscopic (relatively) target with no variation due to any technical glitches, asteroid strikes, etc. (At that power, a fraction of a second wiggle could incinerate a neighbourhood.)
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: apl68 on November 17, 2022, 12:07:24 PM
I would assume that the ground receiver point would be located in an area with a buffer zone separating it from anything it might damage.

It's an interesting idea that could potentially help out a lot.  Given how many years they've been talking about it--I recall seeing articles like this when I was a kid over 40 years ago--I'm inclined to believe it when I see it.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: dismalist on November 17, 2022, 12:08:53 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 12:04:01 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:54:11 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 11:46:38 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:35:10 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 11:26:18 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:21:12 AM
I think the point of the article is that it's getting close to becoming economically feasible.

As to marshwiggle's concern, isn't geosynchronous doable?

Think William Tell. I'll put a guy on a mountaintop with a rifle. You stand there with an apple on your head. If he shoots the aple, you get $100. Good deal?

(Geosynchronous orbit is a mountaintop VERY far away.)

Depends on the guy:)

Yes it is far away. But, we're getting closer to capability with Artemis and all the private efforts to create affordability, yes?

Ah, because as long as it's "affordable" we don't have to worry about technical glitches resulting in hot-knife-through-butter across swaths of the planet. Or of any *hacker figuring out how to do that on purpose.


*including those funded by other nations.

I would be worried, yes. If geosynchronous is possible in the near future, what uses would you like to see for it?


Geosynchronous orbit gets used for all kinds of stuff now. But communication power-level radio signals are literally orders-of-magnitude different from gigawatt (or more!) grid-scale power being beamed to theoretically hit a microscopic (relatively) target with no variation due to any technical glitches, asteroid strikes, etc. (At that power, a fraction of a second wiggle could incinerate a neighbourhood.)

I'm sure a fire insurance policy can be written to cover mishaps like that. I wonder what the price would be. :-)
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 12:09:54 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 17, 2022, 12:08:53 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 12:04:01 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:54:11 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 11:46:38 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:35:10 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 11:26:18 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 11:21:12 AM
I think the point of the article is that it's getting close to becoming economically feasible.

As to marshwiggle's concern, isn't geosynchronous doable?

Think William Tell. I'll put a guy on a mountaintop with a rifle. You stand there with an apple on your head. If he shoots the aple, you get $100. Good deal?

(Geosynchronous orbit is a mountaintop VERY far away.)

Depends on the guy:)

Yes it is far away. But, we're getting closer to capability with Artemis and all the private efforts to create affordability, yes?

Ah, because as long as it's "affordable" we don't have to worry about technical glitches resulting in hot-knife-through-butter across swaths of the planet. Or of any *hacker figuring out how to do that on purpose.


*including those funded by other nations.

I would be worried, yes. If geosynchronous is possible in the near future, what uses would you like to see for it?


Geosynchronous orbit gets used for all kinds of stuff now. But communication power-level radio signals are literally orders-of-magnitude different from gigawatt (or more!) grid-scale power being beamed to theoretically hit a microscopic (relatively) target with no variation due to any technical glitches, asteroid strikes, etc. (At that power, a fraction of a second wiggle could incinerate a neighbourhood.)

I'm sure a fire insurance policy can be written to cover mishaps like that. I wonder what the price would be. :-)

Tinfoil hats will be not only fashionable, but functional!
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: Anselm on November 17, 2022, 12:14:45 PM
Generating power up in space would be most useful right there running future orbiting labs, hotels, telescopes, factories and space elevators.  These are the things we were told back in the 1960's would be existing by today.

Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 12:16:31 PM
I am confident this will happen in my lifetime. And, I'm assuming the type of innovation mentioned by Hibush above will make it possible. Not planning on the nightmare that marsh is describing. Microwave beaming would be seriously dangerous.

marshwiggle: I meant energy production (not communications) for geosynchronous.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 12:20:07 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 12:16:31 PM
I am confidant this will happen in my lifetime. And, I'm assuming the type of innovation mentioned by Hibush above will make it possible. Not planning on the nightmare that marsh is describing. Microwave beaming would be seriously dangerous.

marshwiggle: I meant energy production (not communications) for geosynchronous.

I think Hibush was making a point. :)

Microwaves are no worse than any other way of getting that intensity of power to a target on Earth. The problem is the William Tell problem. Instead of a guy with a rifle, it's a guy with a machine gun, who's going to be firing continuously for the forseeable future. The ways that could go catastrophically wrong are legion.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 12:27:59 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 12:20:07 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 12:16:31 PM
I am confidant this will happen in my lifetime. And, I'm assuming the type of innovation mentioned by Hibush above will make it possible. Not planning on the nightmare that marsh is describing. Microwave beaming would be seriously dangerous.

marshwiggle: I meant energy production (not communications) for geosynchronous.

I think Hibush was making a point. :)

Microwaves are no worse than any other way of getting that intensity of power to a target on Earth. The problem is the William Tell problem. Instead of a guy with a rifle, it's a guy with a machine gun, who's going to be firing continuously for the forseeable future. The ways that could go catastrophically wrong are legion.

I'm not envisioning phasers:) I'm thinking something far more physical as storage. We are at the bottom of the gravity well (to channel Heinlein).

Of course Anselm is right re being useful right there. I'm assuming that we as a species will be trying lots of things. Colonies at Trojan points for example.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 12:33:16 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 12:27:59 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 12:20:07 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 12:16:31 PM
I am confidant this will happen in my lifetime. And, I'm assuming the type of innovation mentioned by Hibush above will make it possible. Not planning on the nightmare that marsh is describing. Microwave beaming would be seriously dangerous.

marshwiggle: I meant energy production (not communications) for geosynchronous.

I think Hibush was making a point. :)

Microwaves are no worse than any other way of getting that intensity of power to a target on Earth. The problem is the William Tell problem. Instead of a guy with a rifle, it's a guy with a machine gun, who's going to be firing continuously for the forseeable future. The ways that could go catastrophically wrong are legion.

I'm not envisioning phasers:) I'm thinking something far more physical as storage. We are at the bottom of the gravity well (to channel Heinlein).


But if we have to get those "physical storage" things out to the panels, then we have to lift them out of the gravity well. It's a zero-sum (gravitationally speaking) game.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: secundem_artem on November 17, 2022, 12:55:34 PM
All I know is that by now, we were all supposed to be getting about in flying cars.  I don't know what's worse - all the techno libertarians or the techno utopians.  Must be something in the water at Stanford.  Maybe they can also create a crypto currency to pay for it all - lightly regulated, magic internet money that lives in the cloud, seems to be prone to fraud and people "losing the keys to the wallet"  and is entirely dependent on "the greater fool" theory to be of any value.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 12:58:43 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 12:33:16 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 12:27:59 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 12:20:07 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 12:16:31 PM
I am confidant this will happen in my lifetime. And, I'm assuming the type of innovation mentioned by Hibush above will make it possible. Not planning on the nightmare that marsh is describing. Microwave beaming would be seriously dangerous.

marshwiggle: I meant energy production (not communications) for geosynchronous.

I think Hibush was making a point. :)

Microwaves are no worse than any other way of getting that intensity of power to a target on Earth. The problem is the William Tell problem. Instead of a guy with a rifle, it's a guy with a machine gun, who's going to be firing continuously for the forseeable future. The ways that could go catastrophically wrong are legion.

I'm not envisioning phasers:) I'm thinking something far more physical as storage. We are at the bottom of the gravity well (to channel Heinlein).


But if we have to get those "physical storage" things out to the panels, then we have to lift them out of the gravity well. It's a zero-sum (gravitationally speaking) game.

Don't make me say "duh". I'm suggesting lifting something and getting more back in return, or manufacturing the something in orbit.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 01:02:09 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on November 17, 2022, 12:55:34 PM
All I know is that by now, we were all supposed to be getting about in flying cars.  I don't know what's worse - all the techno libertarians or the techno utopians.  Must be something in the water at Stanford.  Maybe they can also create a crypto currency to pay for it all - lightly regulated, magic internet money that lives in the cloud, seems to be prone to fraud and people "losing the keys to the wallet"  and is entirely dependent on "the greater fool" theory to be of any value.

I'm nowhere close to a techno utopian. The advances in technology the last 40 years have been extraordinary without needing to think like that.

Here you go with your flying car: https://www.engadget.com/united-airlines-flying-taxi-eve-air-mobility-embrarer-162205301.html
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 01:13:08 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 12:58:43 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 12:33:16 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 12:27:59 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 12:20:07 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 12:16:31 PM
I am confidant this will happen in my lifetime. And, I'm assuming the type of innovation mentioned by Hibush above will make it possible. Not planning on the nightmare that marsh is describing. Microwave beaming would be seriously dangerous.

marshwiggle: I meant energy production (not communications) for geosynchronous.

I think Hibush was making a point. :)

Microwaves are no worse than any other way of getting that intensity of power to a target on Earth. The problem is the William Tell problem. Instead of a guy with a rifle, it's a guy with a machine gun, who's going to be firing continuously for the forseeable future. The ways that could go catastrophically wrong are legion.

I'm not envisioning phasers:) I'm thinking something far more physical as storage. We are at the bottom of the gravity well (to channel Heinlein).


But if we have to get those "physical storage" things out to the panels, then we have to lift them out of the gravity well. It's a zero-sum (gravitationally speaking) game.

Don't make me say "duh". I'm suggesting lifting something and getting more back in return, or manufacturing the something in orbit.

From what? if we have to take the material to orbit, then we have the same problem. If we're going to catch comets or something, then all of them that we eventually drop to the earth are going to add mass to the planet. (If this power generation is ongoing, then the planet will start to slow its spinning. If you think the amount will be too small to matter, that's what we thought about pollution, and mining, and....)
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 01:22:16 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 01:13:08 PM


From what?

Photons:)
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 02:06:48 PM
This one doesn't fly, but look at it! Yowza!

https://aptera.us
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: dismalist on November 17, 2022, 02:10:32 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 02:06:48 PM
This one doesn't fly, but look at it! Yowza!

https://aptera.us

Here's the thing with technology already known:

Electric Cars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumper_cars#/media/File:Autorata.JPG)
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 02:25:49 PM
How about these? There are bunches of them already out there. https://www.arcimoto.com
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: dismalist on November 17, 2022, 02:32:05 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 02:25:49 PM
How about these? There are bunches of them already out there. https://www.arcimoto.com

Battery powered. Inferior technology. Pave the world with catenary. :-)
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: Hibush on November 17, 2022, 06:24:23 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 12:20:07 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 12:16:31 PM
I am confidant this will happen in my lifetime. And, I'm assuming the type of innovation mentioned by Hibush above will make it possible. Not planning on the nightmare that marsh is describing. Microwave beaming would be seriously dangerous.

marshwiggle: I meant energy production (not communications) for geosynchronous.

I think Hibush was making a point. :)

Too subtle, apparently, but thanks for noticing.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 06:45:05 PM
Sorry, but I got that you meant sunlight.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 07:21:51 PM
https://physicsworld.com/a/space-based-solar-power-could-beaming-sunlight-back-to-earth-meet-our-energy-needs/
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: Ruralguy on November 17, 2022, 07:32:15 PM
Its essentially Freeman Dyson's idea which inspired the sci fi concept of "Dyson spheres" (though Dyson said he really only ever meant a spherical distribution of solar collection satellites). But, yeah, the limitation is delivering the power.

In my head, I've analogized it to bringing flood waters of the lowlands to the dry west. It seems like an "obvious" way to solve droughts. Then you start thinking of the Herculean task of pumping water up from the Mississippi River (or some other river in central or northern US) through the Rockies, and down to LA or wherever. We know how to do it, but is a multibillion dollar project and would take many years. My feeling is that it would probably be worth it, and would probably be better than desalination. Of course the problem discussed above is even orders of magnitude more difficult. Still, I wouldn't be opposed to proof of concept research into this.  I have the feeling nuclear fusion will be more productive in a decade, and if its cheap enough to scale it to running cities and such, then maybe fusion could start to replace fission, in, say two or three decades.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: dismalist on November 17, 2022, 07:41:07 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on November 17, 2022, 07:32:15 PM
Its essentially Freeman Dyson's idea which inspired the sci fi concept of "Dyson spheres" (though Dyson said he really only ever meant a spherical distribution of solar collection satellites). But, yeah, the limitation is delivering the power.

In my head, I've analogized it to bringing flood waters of the lowlands to the dry west. It seems like an "obvious" way to solve droughts. Then you start thinking of the Herculean task of pumping water up from the Mississippi River (or some other river in central or northern US) through the Rockies, and down to LA or wherever. We know how to do it, but is a multibillion dollar project and would take many years. My feeling is that it would probably be worth it, and would probably be better than desalination. Of course the problem discussed above is even orders of magnitude more difficult. Still, I wouldn't be opposed to proof of concept research into this.  I have the feeling nuclear fusion will be more productive in a decade, and if its cheap enough to scale it to running cities and such, then maybe fusion could start to replace fission, in, say two or three decades.

Or, one could have western agriculture pay for the water it uses, watch the Colorado River fill up again, have plenty of water left over for people who would also pay, and ship agricultural produce from places that have plenty of water.

Or has it stopped raining?
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 08:00:37 PM
I'm cool with agriculture paying. But, while it hasn't stopped raining, that isn't enough for the usage in Arizona and California. Were would the water they pay for come from?
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: dismalist on November 17, 2022, 08:15:35 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 08:00:37 PM
I'm cool with agriculture paying. But, while it hasn't stopped raining, that isn't enough for the usage in Arizona and California. Were would the water they pay for come from?

If people want a certain quantity of water for whatever purpose they will pay. If they can't or won't pay a sufficiently high price to obtain that quantity, they'll engage in less water intensive economic activities, or emigrate to the Northeast, where there's plenty of water.

If we wish to help them, we should ship them money, not water.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 08:21:40 PM
Where do you think the Northeast gets it's produce?

https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/Statistics/
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: dismalist on November 17, 2022, 08:35:26 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 08:21:40 PM
Where do you think the Northeast gets it's produce?

https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/Statistics/

Man, we have this thing called international trade! No worries. :-)
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 08:39:33 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 17, 2022, 08:35:26 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 08:21:40 PM
Where do you think the Northeast gets it's produce?

https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/Statistics/

Man, we have this thing called international trade! No worries. :-)

You know that's not enough. And, anyway, now we're back to energy production:)
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: dismalist on November 17, 2022, 08:43:42 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 08:39:33 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 17, 2022, 08:35:26 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 08:21:40 PM
Where do you think the Northeast gets it's produce?

https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/Statistics/

Man, we have this thing called international trade! No worries. :-)

You know that's not enough. And, anyway, now we're back to energy production:)

Price change makes it enough, one way or another. Same with energy. But there, anything more expensive than nuclear is a waste of resources.

Good night!
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: marshwiggle on November 18, 2022, 05:26:39 AM
Quote from: Hibush on November 17, 2022, 06:24:23 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 17, 2022, 12:20:07 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 12:16:31 PM
I am confidant this will happen in my lifetime. And, I'm assuming the type of innovation mentioned by Hibush above will make it possible. Not planning on the nightmare that marsh is describing. Microwave beaming would be seriously dangerous.

marshwiggle: I meant energy production (not communications) for geosynchronous.

I think Hibush was making a point. :)

Too subtle, apparently, but thanks for noticing.

One of the things I love about British humour, as opposed to a lot of American humor, (aside from the "u"s), is the fact that it doesn't have a pause and a laugh-track; it assumes the audience is clever enough to catch it without having to have attention drawn to it. Sarcasm or irony that has to be pointed out has failed.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: arcturus on November 18, 2022, 05:39:34 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 18, 2022, 05:26:39 AM
One of the things I love about British humour, as opposed to a lot of American humor, (aside from the "u"s), is the fact that it doesn't have a pause and a laugh-track; it assumes the audience is clever enough to catch it without having to have attention drawn to it. Sarcasm or irony that has to be pointed out has failed.

Do you think the extra 'u's act as absorbents, to keep the wit dry?
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: marshwiggle on November 18, 2022, 05:44:00 AM
Quote from: arcturus on November 18, 2022, 05:39:34 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 18, 2022, 05:26:39 AM
One of the things I love about British humour, as opposed to a lot of American humor, (aside from the "u"s), is the fact that it doesn't have a pause and a laugh-track; it assumes the audience is clever enough to catch it without having to have attention drawn to it. Sarcasm or irony that has to be pointed out has failed.

Do you think the extra 'u's act as absorbents, to keep the wit dry?

You deserve honours for that valourous and colourful response.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: apl68 on November 18, 2022, 07:26:54 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 01:02:09 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on November 17, 2022, 12:55:34 PM
All I know is that by now, we were all supposed to be getting about in flying cars.  I don't know what's worse - all the techno libertarians or the techno utopians.  Must be something in the water at Stanford.  Maybe they can also create a crypto currency to pay for it all - lightly regulated, magic internet money that lives in the cloud, seems to be prone to fraud and people "losing the keys to the wallet"  and is entirely dependent on "the greater fool" theory to be of any value.

I'm nowhere close to a techno utopian. The advances in technology the last 40 years have been extraordinary without needing to think like that.

Here you go with your flying car: https://www.engadget.com/united-airlines-flying-taxi-eve-air-mobility-embrarer-162205301.html

Shucks, I know of at least ten different designs of flying car that actually flew between the 1920s and 1970s.  One, believe it or not, was a flying Ford Pinto, which is scary to think about.  It has long been doable.  Just never practical, or very economically feasible.  And no doubt for the best, given all the trouble we've had from the proliferation of the earth-bound kind.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: apl68 on November 18, 2022, 07:32:16 AM
Funnily enough, I'm now in the process of reading an old book I found recently that's all about colonies in space.  The whole colonization business was expected to be driven by the need to build giant orbital solar arrays to beam power back to Earth.  The collection points earthside were expected to be miles in diameter, probably built on tapped-out oil and coal fields that had already been ruined for any other use. 

This book is pushing five decades old.  Maybe this time it's different?  Again, I'll believe it when I see it. 
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: marshwiggle on November 18, 2022, 07:36:54 AM
Quote from: apl68 on November 18, 2022, 07:26:54 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 01:02:09 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on November 17, 2022, 12:55:34 PM
All I know is that by now, we were all supposed to be getting about in flying cars.  I don't know what's worse - all the techno libertarians or the techno utopians.  Must be something in the water at Stanford.  Maybe they can also create a crypto currency to pay for it all - lightly regulated, magic internet money that lives in the cloud, seems to be prone to fraud and people "losing the keys to the wallet"  and is entirely dependent on "the greater fool" theory to be of any value.

I'm nowhere close to a techno utopian. The advances in technology the last 40 years have been extraordinary without needing to think like that.

Here you go with your flying car: https://www.engadget.com/united-airlines-flying-taxi-eve-air-mobility-embrarer-162205301.html

Shucks, I know of at least ten different designs of flying car that actually flew between the 1920s and 1970s.  One, believe it or not, was a flying Ford Pinto, which is scary to think about.  It has long been doable.  Just never practical, or very economically feasible.  And no doubt for the best, given all the trouble we've had from the proliferation of the earth-bound kind.

The biggest problem with flying cars, (and large drones, for that matter), is the danger to people on the ground in the event of crashes. Increased, largely unregulated, air traffic over populated areas is a REALLY bad idea. (For a few niche applications, like sparsely-populated archipelagos, and long rivers with few crossings, flying cars could be a decent solution.)
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 18, 2022, 08:21:27 AM
Quote from: apl68 on November 18, 2022, 07:32:16 AM
Funnily enough, I'm now in the process of reading an old book I found recently that's all about colonies in space.  The whole colonization business was expected to be driven by the need to build giant orbital solar arrays to beam power back to Earth.  The collection points earthside were expected to be miles in diameter, probably built on tapped-out oil and coal fields that had already been ruined for any other use. 

This book is pushing five decades old.  Maybe this time it's different?  Again, I'll believe it when I see it.

What is the book?
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: ciao_yall on November 18, 2022, 08:22:15 AM
Quote from: dismalist on November 17, 2022, 08:15:35 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 08:00:37 PM
I'm cool with agriculture paying. But, while it hasn't stopped raining, that isn't enough for the usage in Arizona and California. Were would the water they pay for come from?

If people want a certain quantity of water for whatever purpose they will pay. If they can't or won't pay a sufficiently high price to obtain that quantity, they'll engage in less water intensive economic activities, or emigrate to the Northeast, where there's plenty of water.

If we wish to help them, we should ship them money, not water.

Most of the water is used by agriculture, not households. The Central Valley in California was a giant desert until someone figured out in the early 1900's that if you brought a lot of water in, the mild climate would make excellent growing conditions. But... no water.

Now they use pretty water intensive methods, like flood irrigation, to grow things like rice (!). They could invest in lower water use methods but that would cost money as well.

Those costs, one way or another, would go on to the consumer and food prices would increase. The region has started mowing over their golf courses (https://golf.com/news/the-death-of-a-golf-course-the-withering-of-californias-stevinson-ranch/) to use that water infrastructure for agriculture which is more profitable.

Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: apl68 on November 18, 2022, 12:35:17 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 18, 2022, 08:21:27 AM
Quote from: apl68 on November 18, 2022, 07:32:16 AM
Funnily enough, I'm now in the process of reading an old book I found recently that's all about colonies in space.  The whole colonization business was expected to be driven by the need to build giant orbital solar arrays to beam power back to Earth.  The collection points earthside were expected to be miles in diameter, probably built on tapped-out oil and coal fields that had already been ruined for any other use. 

This book is pushing five decades old.  Maybe this time it's different?  Again, I'll believe it when I see it.

What is the book?

Toward Distant Suns, by T.A. Heppenheimer.  I went through the first several chapters yesterday evening.  I would've loved to have seen this as a kid, back before it became a period piece.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: dismalist on November 18, 2022, 12:59:06 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 18, 2022, 08:22:15 AM
Quote from: dismalist on November 17, 2022, 08:15:35 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 17, 2022, 08:00:37 PM
I'm cool with agriculture paying. But, while it hasn't stopped raining, that isn't enough for the usage in Arizona and California. Were would the water they pay for come from?

If people want a certain quantity of water for whatever purpose they will pay. If they can't or won't pay a sufficiently high price to obtain that quantity, they'll engage in less water intensive economic activities, or emigrate to the Northeast, where there's plenty of water.

If we wish to help them, we should ship them money, not water.

Most of the water is used by agriculture, not households. The Central Valley in California was a giant desert until someone figured out in the early 1900's that if you brought a lot of water in, the mild climate would make excellent growing conditions. But... no water.

Now they use pretty water intensive methods, like flood irrigation, to grow things like rice (!). They could invest in lower water use methods but that would cost money as well.

Those costs, one way or another, would go on to the consumer and food prices would increase. The region has started mowing over their golf courses (https://golf.com/news/the-death-of-a-golf-course-the-withering-of-californias-stevinson-ranch/) to use that water infrastructure for agriculture which is more profitable.

Absolutely, Ciao! To keep prices of water intensive food low, import it from regions where water is plentiful, not from deserts.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 18, 2022, 01:47:43 PM
I'm interested where that water is. Not the Amazon for sure (drought). In the US the food comes from the Midwest and West coast, along with Florida. Only one of those three hasn't experienced significant water shortages.

And would we really expect that people will pay the higher (much) food costs? Or the less water intensive alternative of less (way less) meat? I'm dubious.


Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: Juvenal on November 18, 2022, 04:16:56 PM
More energy, more growth.  What could be better?  Bring it on.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: apl68 on November 19, 2022, 06:43:58 AM
This may belong on the "What Have You Been Reading" thread, but since we're talking about it here:


Toward Distant Suns, by T.A. Heppenheimer.  In the 1970s there was a good deal of techno-utopianism surrounding the ideas of space colonization advocate Gerard O'Neill.  Heppenheimer here argues that building massive solar powersats to supply our future energy needs would be a perfect way to get the whole space colonization thing under way.  Building the powersats would require lunar mining colonies (to mine materials and shoot them to Earth orbit via mass driver) and orbital quarters for several thousand orbital construction workers and support staff.  The colony would probably be a kind of well-ordered company town, like the old Panama Canal Zone.  Note the contrast between this view of a space colony and the more popular idea that it would be a libertarian paradise where independent spirits could finally escape all those pesky rules and regulations.  Given that high-rise condominiums have been known to collapse because their collective owners couldn't agree to invest in badly-needed repairs, I'd give a libertarian colony in space less than a generation before it imploded, due to a lack of people willing to do and pay for the unglamorous grunt work of making sure all those complicated life-support systems stayed viable....

Anyway, by the time the powersats were all built out, space tourists would have begun coming to the space colony.  Once word about the delights of great views from orbit, low-g sports, and zero-g sex got out, they wouldn't be able to beat the hordes of eager visitors off with a stick.  Since telecommuting to work from anywhere would be a thing by the 21st century (well, there's one prediction right on the nose), there would be a real-estate rush to buy dwellings in the space colony.  There would be a real danger of a major real estate bubble to be on guard against.

So new space colonies would be born.  They would get bigger and bigger and develop a self-sustaining economy built around power supply and asteroid mining.  Eventually there would be independent space-dwelling nations.  And then Earth could start either engineering grand projects to communicate with aliens or, assuming there probably weren't any out there--Heppenheimer suspects it's the latter--start sending out star ships to seek out new life and new civilizations, etc.  Earth's people would be to the galaxy what the Western Europeans were to Earth--the progressive force that brought civilization and knit the disparate parts together.

Uh...yeah.  It's easy to imagine how well that last part would go down now with many people.  And you can't really blame them.  Space exploration's frequent identification with exploration and colonization have left it in very bad odor with the sorts of commentators who tend to be called "woke."  There are big flame wars going on in the sci-fi fan community between admirers of older writers like Heinlein, and newer fans who believe that these should be run out of the canon to make way for writers who use sci-fi as a further club with which to beat the drum for revolution.

Another thing that dates this book--besides the simple fact that hardly any of this stuff has come to pass over the past four decades plus--is the treatment of global climate change.  Heppenheimer was aware of it.  He speaks of it as if the jury was still out regarding its effects.  Fair enough, since it would not be until around 1990 that the scientific consensus on climate change was sufficiently well-developed to sound the alarm.  Assuming that human-caused climate change really does turn out to be a problem, Heppenheimer points out that his powersats would be a splendid solution to the problem.  Which brings us to this thread.  We're still waiting.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 19, 2022, 05:24:21 PM
Thanks apl!

I certainly don't want more growth (well, at least not unlimited). I just hope we can develop a source at scale that is far less polluting and renewable.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: marshwiggle on November 20, 2022, 02:40:17 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 19, 2022, 05:24:21 PM
Thanks apl!

I certainly don't want more growth (well, at least not unlimited). I just hope we can develop a source at scale that is far less polluting and renewable.

There's your problem. Better solution: change building codes to require 5% of the cost of new home construction in some sort of renewable technology (solar panels, batteries, etc. ) Even without solar exposure, a battery bank would help with time-based metering, so the system can charge from the grid when power is cheap, and run from batteries (or even sell to the grid) when the price is high.
This reduces the load on the grid and centralized production, and lets people see more of how they can adjust their own usage to their own resources.


Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 20, 2022, 05:26:58 PM
I want that also. However, I don't see switching the grid from coal and natural gas produced electricity without something better being developed. That's the end I'm worried about. Am I wrong in that?
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: marshwiggle on November 21, 2022, 05:34:10 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 20, 2022, 05:26:58 PM
I want that also. However, I don't see switching the grid from coal and natural gas produced electricity without something better being developed. That's the end I'm worried about. Am I wrong in that?

A big part of the problem is that grid-scale renewable energy, (other than *nuclear), requires grid-scale storage. Generation is the easy part. By moving toward distributed storage, it becomes much more manageable, and distributed production simplifies it even more.

*As many analysts have pointed out, nuclear is the most viable backstop to intermittent renewable energy in many places.
I own an off-grid cabin, so I'm all in favour of renewables, but the storage challenges are very real.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: Anselm on November 21, 2022, 07:13:47 AM
Can we first get restaurant tables that don't rock back and forth?  Then maybe someone can design computer printers which easily connect with my computer with a few mouse clicks. 

We can have plenty of energy if we just had good urban planning and mass transit.
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 21, 2022, 11:03:50 AM
Here's the info on nuclear in the US. I understand the storage issue, but still haven't seen the pollution and non-renewable facets discussed other than nuclear. I quite frankly don't see the US building enough new fission plants to replace current coal and natural gas generation of electricity. Color me dubious at best.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/nuclear/us-nuclear-industry.php
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: Juvenal on November 21, 2022, 04:06:42 PM
The color of "dubious" is... "beige"?

Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 21, 2022, 11:03:50 AM
Here's the info on nuclear in the US. I understand the storage issue, but still haven't seen the pollution and non-renewable facets discussed other than nuclear. I quite frankly don't see the US building enough new fission plants to replace current coal and natural gas generation of electricity. Color me dubious at best.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/nuclear/us-nuclear-industry.php
Title: Re: Space-based solar power becoming a reality?
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 21, 2022, 04:48:40 PM
Green.

Quote from: Juvenal on November 21, 2022, 04:06:42 PM
The color of "dubious" is... "beige"?

Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 21, 2022, 11:03:50 AM
Here's the info on nuclear in the US. I understand the storage issue, but still haven't seen the pollution and non-renewable facets discussed other than nuclear. I quite frankly don't see the US building enough new fission plants to replace current coal and natural gas generation of electricity. Color me dubious at best.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/nuclear/us-nuclear-industry.php