Let's Ditch Gen Eds

[mleok]

*Many countries don't have such obscenely high tuition, and so don't need to have so many unusual ways of offsetting the cost......

Just to clarify, the causality runs the other way: Football teams and climbing walls add to costs. Thus they raise tuition. At the same time, however, they make it attractive for some customers to pay more tuition. Nothing but ordinary price discrimination. 

Simple, really. We add garbage and we have to find ways of paying for it.

Such methods do not work when there is intense competition. While we do have lots of colleges, we also have accreditors who make sure that competition is limited.

In contrast to football and climbing walls, Gen Ed is not voluntary for the college. The accreditors are those that see to it that Gen Ed can't be cut and still award a Bachelor's Degree after two or three full-time years.

So, football is a fun program that costs money and Gen Ed is a jobs program that costs money. :-)

I'm curious as to what are minimum requirements for general education with regards to accreditation standards.

[dismalist]

*Many countries don't have such obscenely high tuition, and so don't need to have so many unusual ways of offsetting the cost......

Just to clarify, the causality runs the other way: Football teams and climbing walls add to costs. Thus they raise tuition. At the same time, however, they make it attractive for some customers to pay more tuition. Nothing but ordinary price discrimination. 

Simple, really. We add garbage and we have to find ways of paying for it.

Such methods do not work when there is intense competition. While we do have lots of colleges, we also have accreditors who make sure that competition is limited.

In contrast to football and climbing walls, Gen Ed is not voluntary for the college. The accreditors are those that see to it that Gen Ed can't be cut and still award a Bachelor's Degree after two or three full-time years.

So, football is a fun program that costs money and Gen Ed is a jobs program that costs money. :-)

I'm curious as to what are minimum requirements for general education with regards to accreditation standards.

Easy googling.

E.g. New England, from  https://www.neche.org/resources/standards-for-accreditation#standard_six

General Education

4.16 The general education program is coherent and substantive.  It reflects the institution's mission and values and embodies the institution's definition of an educated person and prepares students for the world in which they will live.  The requirement informs the design of all general education courses, and provides criteria for its evaluation, including the assessment of what students learn.

4.17 The general education requirement in each undergraduate program ensures adequate breadth for all degree-seeking students by showing a balanced regard for what are traditionally referred to as the arts and humanities, the sciences including mathematics, and the social sciences.  General education requirements include offerings that focus on the subject matter and methodologies of these three primary domains of knowledge as well as on their relationships to one another.

4.18 The institution ensures that all undergraduate students complete at least the equivalent of 40 semester credits in a bachelor's degree program, or the equivalent of 20 semester credits in an associate's degree program in general education.


Forty semester credits is one third of the time spent in college.

[marshwiggle]

E.g. New England, from  https://www.neche.org/resources/standards-for-accreditation#standard_six

General Education

4.16 The general education program is coherent and substantive.  It reflects the institution's mission and values and embodies the institution's definition of an educated person and prepares students for the world in which they will live.  The requirement informs the design of all general education courses, and provides criteria for its evaluation, including the assessment of what students learn.

Gen ed courses are "designed"? Not just off the shelf? Who knew!

4.17 The general education requirement in each undergraduate program ensures adequate breadth for all degree-seeking students by showing a balanced regard for what are traditionally referred to as the arts and humanities, the sciences including mathematics, and the social sciences.  General education requirements include offerings that focus on the subject matter and methodologies of these three primary domains of knowledge as well as on their relationships to one another.

And they focus on their relationships to one another? Amazing!


So seriously, how many places reflect this ideal?

[theflea]

*Many countries don't have such obscenely high tuition, and so don't need to have so many unusual ways of offsetting the cost......

Just to clarify, the causality runs the other way: Football teams and climbing walls add to costs. Thus they raise tuition. At the same time, however, they make it attractive for some customers to pay more tuition. Nothing but ordinary price discrimination. 

Simple, really. We add garbage and we have to find ways of paying for it.

Such methods do not work when there is intense competition. While we do have lots of colleges, we also have accreditors who make sure that competition is limited.

In contrast to football and climbing walls, Gen Ed is not voluntary for the college. The accreditors are those that see to it that Gen Ed can't be cut and still award a Bachelor's Degree after two or three full-time years.

So, football is a fun program that costs money and Gen Ed is a jobs program that costs money. :-)

I'm curious as to what are minimum requirements for general education with regards to accreditation standards.

Easy googling.

E.g. New England, from  https://www.neche.org/resources/standards-for-accreditation#standard_six

General Education

4.16 The general education program is coherent and substantive.  It reflects the institution's mission and values and embodies the institution's definition of an educated person and prepares students for the world in which they will live.  The requirement informs the design of all general education courses, and provides criteria for its evaluation, including the assessment of what students learn.

4.17 The general education requirement in each undergraduate program ensures adequate breadth for all degree-seeking students by showing a balanced regard for what are traditionally referred to as the arts and humanities, the sciences including mathematics, and the social sciences.  General education requirements include offerings that focus on the subject matter and methodologies of these three primary domains of knowledge as well as on their relationships to one another.

4.18 The institution ensures that all undergraduate students complete at least the equivalent of 40 semester credits in a bachelor's degree program, or the equivalent of 20 semester credits in an associate's degree program in general education.


Forty semester credits is one third of the time spent in college.

They accredit Brown but Brown doesn't have Gen Ed requirements aside from writing.

[dismalist]

*Many countries don't have such obscenely high tuition, and so don't need to have so many unusual ways of offsetting the cost......

Just to clarify, the causality runs the other way: Football teams and climbing walls add to costs. Thus they raise tuition. At the same time, however, they make it attractive for some customers to pay more tuition. Nothing but ordinary price discrimination. 

Simple, really. We add garbage and we have to find ways of paying for it.

Such methods do not work when there is intense competition. While we do have lots of colleges, we also have accreditors who make sure that competition is limited.

In contrast to football and climbing walls, Gen Ed is not voluntary for the college. The accreditors are those that see to it that Gen Ed can't be cut and still award a Bachelor's Degree after two or three full-time years.

So, football is a fun program that costs money and Gen Ed is a jobs program that costs money. :-)

I'm curious as to what are minimum requirements for general education with regards to accreditation standards.

Easy googling.

E.g. New England, from  https://www.neche.org/resources/standards-for-accreditation#standard_six

General Education

4.16 The general education program is coherent and substantive.  It reflects the institution's mission and values and embodies the institution's definition of an educated person and prepares students for the world in which they will live.  The requirement informs the design of all general education courses, and provides criteria for its evaluation, including the assessment of what students learn.

4.17 The general education requirement in each undergraduate program ensures adequate breadth for all degree-seeking students by showing a balanced regard for what are traditionally referred to as the arts and humanities, the sciences including mathematics, and the social sciences.  General education requirements include offerings that focus on the subject matter and methodologies of these three primary domains of knowledge as well as on their relationships to one another.

4.18 The institution ensures that all undergraduate students complete at least the equivalent of 40 semester credits in a bachelor's degree program, or the equivalent of 20 semester credits in an associate's degree program in general education.


Forty semester credits is one third of the time spent in college.

They accredit Brown but Brown doesn't have Gen Ed requirements aside from writing.

At Brown, each student defines his/her own Core https://www.brown.edu/academics/college/degree/curriculum. :-)

The point is that one must attend and pay for four years. The content defined by New England for Gen Ed is clearly negotiable, with Brown!

[jimbogumbo]

We are accredited through the Higher Learning Commission. See below.

B. Teaching and Learning: Quality, Resources, and Support
Programs, Courses, and Credits

The institution conforms to commonly accepted minimum program length: 60 semester credits for associate's degrees, 120 semester credits for bachelor's degrees, and 30 semester credits beyond the bachelor's for master's degrees. Any variation from these minima must be explained and justified.
The institution maintains structures or practices that ensure the coherence and quality of the programs for which it awards a degree. Typically institutions will require that at minimum 30 of the 120 credits earned for the bachelor's degree and 15 of the 60 credits for the associate's degree be credits earned at the institution itself, through arrangements with other accredited institutions, or through contractual relationships approved by HLC. Any variation from the typical minima must be explained and justified.

The institution's policy and practice assure that at least 50% of courses applied to a graduate program are courses designed for graduate work, rather than undergraduate courses credited toward a graduate degree. (Cf. Criterion 3.A.1 and 2.)
(An institution may allow well-prepared advanced students to substitute its graduate courses for required or elective courses in an undergraduate degree program and then subsequently count those same courses as fulfilling graduate requirements in a related graduate program that the institution offers. In "4+1" or "2+3" programs, at least 50% of the credits allocated for the master's degree – usually 15 of 30 – must be for courses designed for graduate work.)

The institution adheres to policies on student academic load per term that reflect reasonable expectations for successful learning and course completion. Courses that carry academic credit toward college-level credentials have content and rigor appropriate to higher education.

The institution has a process for ensuring that all courses transferred and applied toward degree requirements demonstrate equivalence with its own courses required for that degree or are of equivalent rigor.

The institution has a clear policy on the maximum allowable credit for prior learning as a reasonable proportion of the credits required to complete the student's program. Credit awarded for prior learning is documented, evaluated, and appropriate for the level of degree awarded. (Note that this requirement does not apply to courses transferred from other institutions.)

The institution maintains a minimum requirement for general education for all of its undergraduate programs whether through a traditional practice of distributed curricula (15 semester credits for AAS degrees, 24 for AS or AA degrees, and 30 for bachelor's degrees) or through integrated, embedded, interdisciplinary, or other accepted models that demonstrate a minimum requirement equivalent to the distributed model. Any variation is explained and justified.

[dismalist]

We are accredited through the Higher Learning Commission. See below.

B. Teaching and Learning: Quality, Resources, and Support
Programs, Courses, and Credits

The institution conforms ... .

Aaahh, Brown [if that's the we] was accredited in 2018. The standards I linked to are valid from 2021. next shot is 2028. I'm sure it will work.

It is amazing how on this board discussion can go from general principles to special cases within one post!

I have this feeling about Mercury ... . :-)

[theflea]

We are accredited through the Higher Learning Commission. See below.

B. Teaching and Learning: Quality, Resources, and Support
Programs, Courses, and Credits

The institution conforms to commonly accepted minimum program length: 60 semester credits for associate's degrees, 120 semester credits for bachelor's degrees, and 30 semester credits beyond the bachelor's for master's degrees. Any variation from these minima must be explained and justified.
The institution maintains structures or practices that ensure the coherence and quality of the programs for which it awards a degree. Typically institutions will require that at minimum 30 of the 120 credits earned for the bachelor's degree and 15 of the 60 credits for the associate's degree be credits earned at the institution itself, through arrangements with other accredited institutions, or through contractual relationships approved by HLC. Any variation from the typical minima must be explained and justified.

The institution's policy and practice assure that at least 50% of courses applied to a graduate program are courses designed for graduate work, rather than undergraduate courses credited toward a graduate degree. (Cf. Criterion 3.A.1 and 2.)
(An institution may allow well-prepared advanced students to substitute its graduate courses for required or elective courses in an undergraduate degree program and then subsequently count those same courses as fulfilling graduate requirements in a related graduate program that the institution offers. In "4+1" or "2+3" programs, at least 50% of the credits allocated for the master's degree – usually 15 of 30 – must be for courses designed for graduate work.)

The institution adheres to policies on student academic load per term that reflect reasonable expectations for successful learning and course completion. Courses that carry academic credit toward college-level credentials have content and rigor appropriate to higher education.

The institution has a process for ensuring that all courses transferred and applied toward degree requirements demonstrate equivalence with its own courses required for that degree or are of equivalent rigor.

The institution has a clear policy on the maximum allowable credit for prior learning as a reasonable proportion of the credits required to complete the student's program. Credit awarded for prior learning is documented, evaluated, and appropriate for the level of degree awarded. (Note that this requirement does not apply to courses transferred from other institutions.)

The institution maintains a minimum requirement for general education for all of its undergraduate programs whether through a traditional practice of distributed curricula (15 semester credits for AAS degrees, 24 for AS or AA degrees, and 30 for bachelor's degrees) or through integrated, embedded, interdisciplinary, or other accepted models that demonstrate a minimum requirement equivalent to the distributed model. Any variation is explained and justified.

The HLC accredits Grinnell and Grinnell only has one required class: a first-year tutorial. Grinnell doesn't have anything like general education requirements beyond that one course.

[theflea]

We are accredited through the Higher Learning Commission. See below.

B. Teaching and Learning: Quality, Resources, and Support
Programs, Courses, and Credits

The institution conforms ... .

Aaahh, Brown [if that's the we] was accredited in 2018. The standards I linked to are valid from 2021. next shot is 2028. I'm sure it will work.

It is amazing how on this board discussion can go from general principles to special cases within one post!

I have this feeling about Mercury ... . :-)

Are open curriculum institutions special cases? There are enough of them, all accredited, that arguments about accreditors requiring general education don't seem to be correct.

Do you have access to their earlier standards? Brown has had an open curriculum for so long and it seems unlikely the accreditors' standards have changed that much recently.

[dismalist]

No, it's not another Mercury, though it's Brown-like.

One gets guided through Liberal Arts:

Grinnell's individually advised curriculum allows students to chart their own journey through the liberal arts. Students work closely with their faculty advisers to design a course of study that engages with each of the Six Elements of a Liberal Education

One needs to get details before making blanket judgements. [I go the other direction, of course.] Things are not always what they seem, even if something is called Open Curriculum.

[jimbogumbo]

We are accredited through the Higher Learning Commission. See below.

B. Teaching and Learning: Quality, Resources, and Support
Programs, Courses, and Credits

The institution conforms to commonly accepted minimum program length: 60 semester credits for associate's degrees, 120 semester credits for bachelor's degrees, and 30 semester credits beyond the bachelor's for master's degrees. Any variation from these minima must be explained and justified.
The institution maintains structures or practices that ensure the coherence and quality of the programs for which it awards a degree. Typically institutions will require that at minimum 30 of the 120 credits earned for the bachelor's degree and 15 of the 60 credits for the associate's degree be credits earned at the institution itself, through arrangements with other accredited institutions, or through contractual relationships approved by HLC. Any variation from the typical minima must be explained and justified.

The institution's policy and practice assure that at least 50% of courses applied to a graduate program are courses designed for graduate work, rather than undergraduate courses credited toward a graduate degree. (Cf. Criterion 3.A.1 and 2.)
(An institution may allow well-prepared advanced students to substitute its graduate courses for required or elective courses in an undergraduate degree program and then subsequently count those same courses as fulfilling graduate requirements in a related graduate program that the institution offers. In "4+1" or "2+3" programs, at least 50% of the credits allocated for the master's degree – usually 15 of 30 – must be for courses designed for graduate work.)

The institution adheres to policies on student academic load per term that reflect reasonable expectations for successful learning and course completion. Courses that carry academic credit toward college-level credentials have content and rigor appropriate to higher education.

The institution has a process for ensuring that all courses transferred and applied toward degree requirements demonstrate equivalence with its own courses required for that degree or are of equivalent rigor.

The institution has a clear policy on the maximum allowable credit for prior learning as a reasonable proportion of the credits required to complete the student's program. Credit awarded for prior learning is documented, evaluated, and appropriate for the level of degree awarded. (Note that this requirement does not apply to courses transferred from other institutions.)

The institution maintains a minimum requirement for general education for all of its undergraduate programs whether through a traditional practice of distributed curricula (15 semester credits for AAS degrees, 24 for AS or AA degrees, and 30 for bachelor's degrees) or through integrated, embedded, interdisciplinary, or other accepted models that demonstrate a minimum requirement equivalent to the distributed model. Any variation is explained and justified.

The HLC accredits Grinnell and Grinnell only has one required class: a first-year tutorial. Grinnell doesn't have anything like general education requirements beyond that one course.

I'm well aware of what Grinnell requires. I'm pretty confident it satisfies HLS through distributed curricula.