My department is not very supportive when a colleague leaves

Started by foralurker, August 05, 2022, 04:10:29 PM

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ciao_yall

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 07, 2022, 08:43:38 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on August 05, 2022, 05:07:29 PM
Also, if its a school that people leave often then some people might be sensitive to that.

We had this phenomenon at our first toxic university after grad school.  It was certainly not as pronounced as the situation that the OP describes, but there was definitely a "so-you-think-you'se-better-en-us-huh?" attitude whenever someone was hired in or hired out.

And there were A LOT of people leaving and trying to leave constantly.  We finally managed it.

Faculty tend to be very personally invested in their schools and departments, and we live in a world with a definite scaffolding of prestige.  Moving on up may be a big slap in the face to some people.

^This.^

And the fact that some people aren't willing to accept their place in the weird hierarchy, thus taking away the power of those who created that hierarchy and putting themselves on top.


Ruralguy

Its somewhat that, but I think some of the faculty in this situation may just be genuinely befuddled as to why you (or anybody) would *not* be a good fit to their school, or simply want to go somewhere else even if they were a good fit. People understand family pressures, but they are less sympathetic to people who wish to climb the ladder, or even just moving sideways on the same rung. Either way, people need to get over themselves and be more sympathetic. I mainly mean the senior faculty at the "old" school that the  more junior person (usually) is leaving, but people who are leaving can be sympathetic to those they are leaving as well.

foralurker

Quotebackfired when they cut off benefits or someone decides your done, as in, now, on date of notice, not the two weeks, months, or whatever you're giving them 'to be nice'


Holy crap! I can't believe this didn't cross my mind. Yes, now that I'm faculty, I can't simply start or stop a new job on the first of whatever month on the calendar. If they suddenly decide I'm "done" in May, I would have to pay for all of my prescriptions out of pocket until September!!!

Stockmann

Not in the US, but hopefully still relevant: I gave my old employer less than 48 hrs notice that I was leaving. As in, I resigned effective the next day at the end of the day (this was to allow me to do certain paperwork for some students, otherwise it would've been effective the same day at the end of the day, or even effective immediately). I was the target of a toxic Head of Department, and knew if they could sabotage me in any way, they would, with the support of the higher-ups. For this same reason, I kept everything about my new job, even the fact that I had one, on a need-to-know basis.
To my face, my colleagues were mostly supportive, but I'm sure only one academic in my department was sincere about it (I think the secretaries were genuinely sympathetic). Higher-ups failed to find a way to really screw me over, though they certainly did as much as they could. Ironically all this confirmed that leaving was the right decision, and that the manner of doing it was the right one. A good, functional place would try to make the transition as smooth as possible for everyone, as a matter of enlightened self-interest (maintaining ties with you being useful if you succeed elsewhere, also cultivating a reputation of acting with cool professionalism instead of one of being petty and vindictive, you're more likely to cooperate with a smooth transition if you're not treated with hostility). A bad place, like my former employer, will treat it like a hostile act (even though they're pretty powerless once you've firmly decided to leave) - I guess the equivalent American term would be that the higher-ups regarded me as a runaway slave.
So my advice is that, unless you're absolutely sure there will be no petty vindictiveness, etc - from your immediate colleagues to your Chair to institution-wide administration - and that you'll have health insurance, access to your email, office, etc up to your resignation becoming effective, handle it on a need-to-know basis.

Brego

My department has lost a dozen junior faculty in less than a decade.  The response among a certain group of (older tenured) faculty members is almost always one of confusion or thinly veiled resentment.  That being said, there are so many factors that go into this sort of thing.  It is not worth mulling over other people's feelings, real or imagined. 

Put your energies in to the market instead, as others have recommended.  You are always a free agent (and thus always on the market) until you have tenure at a place you really and truly like. 

jerseyjay

My thoughts in general:

1. Try to leave gracefully, but your ultimate goal is to protect and help yourself. You do not owe lifetime devotion to a job. No institution believes it owes you a lifetime of service. Even if you have tenure, an institution, given the right circumstances will try to get rid of you or make your life unbearable if it is beneficial.

2. People may be confused or resentful, but at the end of the day, the institution will survive. Nobody is irreplaceable, and even if it is inconvenient, an institution will be able to replace you or otherwise make adjustments.

3. A non-tenure-track teaching job--no matter how nice--is not a permanent job. (Ask your dean for a written statement stating that it is a permanent position and see how far that gets you.) Anybody who gets offended that somebody is leaving a temporary position for something they consider better is either out of touch or just being selfish.

4. If you have a faculty job, and you have another job lined up, try to leave in between semester. If you have a non-faculty job, I would advise giving exactly two weeks' notice.

A friend worked in IT at a major university and gave two weeks' notice. His boss wished him well, and called security to escort him off campus (although I believe he was still paid the two weeks' time) because the school did not want him near their computers. I have been told that it is common for partners at law firms to send an email at 4am announcing they are leaving the firm, after they have taken whatever client information they need. 

In my department, a tenured associate professor who also had some administrative responsibilities left for an staff job at another university. Personally, I wouldn't have done that, but they appear generally happy. They gave exactly two weeks' notice (although this was in the middle of the summer, not the middle of a semester.) People wished them well; by the end of the week, their classes for the next semester had been reassigned. By the end of the month somebody had taken over their administrative roles.

At my last non-academic job, I gave two weeks' notice in August (after having lined up a tenure track job that started in September). My supervisor was not happy because I was part of a group of several people who left within two weeks. They got over it, the company wished me well, within a month had hired somebody new, and I still do some consulting for the company every so often.

At the end of the day, you should treat everybody nicely, but you have to do what is best for you. People either understand this, or there is something wrong with them.

lightning

I'll mention what I don't think has been mentioned, yet. At some places (probably a lot more than "some"), replacing a departing colleague has become a total PITA (thanks to admins who want to grab the $ for something stupid or to eliminate the budget for the position altogether, HR's bureaucratic overhead for replacing departing colleagues, having to protect the $ from other faculty who want to grab the $ for their own areas, and of course the time-consuming search process itself.

porkchop

Quote from: foralurker on August 07, 2022, 02:25:34 PM
If they suddenly decide I'm "done" in May, I would have to pay for all of my prescriptions out of pocket until September!!!

In this case I think you'd still be eligible for continuation of insurance through Cobra - federal law requires employers to offer it in many cases, although it will still cost you more. Take with a grain of salt because I'm not an expert in this, but it would be worth looking into given your concern. If it were me, I wouldn't directly ask someone in HR at a toxic place since that would give away that I'm considering leaving, but I would look at anything they already have available online.

Ruralguy

Of course COBRA would only be in the US, and only apply if you were staying in the US. It can be very expensive, since the old institution isn't under any obligation to subsidize your insurance as they likely were doing when you were an employee. The prescriptions probably aren't the biggest problem, unless they are extremely expensive. The real issue is if you get into some sort of accident or get very sick and need immediate care. Chances of that happening right when you stopped insurance are low, but it can happen, and that's part off the reason (other than maintenance care) why you have insurance.

Anyway, most people leave for non-toxic reasons, and even then, the toxicity may be one Chair, and not the general admin or HR. So, most people can probably handle all of this with a cheerful appointment with someone at HR. Needn't be a high anxiety or surreptitious activity , other than for the most extreme cases.

simpleSimon

Quote from: foralurker on August 06, 2022, 10:34:16 AM
Thanks, everyone! Excellent advice here as always. I so appreciate this community and you all have made my career transition a lot less frightening. :-)

I taught for a dozen years and then became an administrator.  In all that time I saw people come and go and never once begrudged them leaving.  I even left myself a couple times.  You DO need a letter from your current school, but it doesn't have to be someone from your department.  Presumably you have served on many committees by now and gotten to know colleagues in other units. Now is the time to leverage those relationships.  Good luck.

foralurker

Quote from: jerseyjay on August 07, 2022, 06:59:42 PM

4. If you have a faculty job, and you have another job lined up, try to leave in between semester. If you have a non-faculty job, I would advise giving exactly two weeks' notice.


I think this is going to be my plan. They can find someone to teach my classes fairly easily.

I now have a couple of outsiders in mind to approach for letters when we return for fall semester. If that doesn't work, I may reach out to the full prof who left at the end of the year. I didn't get a chance to know her well, but she could attest to my employability and that I'm not an insane person. :-)

mleok

I have found the conventional wisdom that one needs a letter from a departmental colleague when applying does not really hold, and it has not prevented me from getting interviews at highly ranked and prestigious institutions where it's clear why one would leave the current position for a new one. Mind you, that doesn't prevent someone from the search committee contacting one of your colleagues off book to see if there are any skeletons in the closet. I've been the recipient of such a call one time when a senior colleague of mine applied somewhere else. People on the search committee are more likely to be concerned if you're applying to a lower ranked or less desirable position.

artalot

My uni used to give NTT people long-term contracts and what amounted to tenure; if they wanted to pursue research, they could apply for funds. NTT people used to stay here for their whole careers. Now we offer one-year contracts and treat them like disposable labor and, surprise, they leave. But we are so underpaid that even tenured profs are getting poached by industry and other schools. Many older folks are shocked because they're not used to it. This was the type of place where people would spend a career, now we have people coming and going all the time.
It's exhausting and hard on those of us who can't leave for whatever reason, which may be some of the hostility you are feeling.

Re: letters. Better to have all outside letters than a poor one from your current unit. What about a colleague in another department?

jerseyjay

If the culture of the school has changed, it could fuel resentment when somebody leaves. For example, over the past 20 years my school has gone from a teaching school--where there was no research requirement for tenure, a heavy teaching load, and a heavy service load, and where people dedicated themselves to the school's mission--to a school that is trying to emphasize research more. In my field (history), everybody who has got tenure in the last decade has had at least one book published, while the teaching and service load haven't really lessened. (New faculty do have a certain reduction in both for a few years.)

There are several results of this. First, old-timers feel that the new regime--administration and faculty--do not value their years' of service and they feel that the nature of the school has changed, making it essentially impossible to get promoted under the new rules. That is, if the old requirements for being promoted to full are not enough to get tenure now, an associate professor has little chance to move up. Second, newer faculty feel that it is unfair that they have to do more than the old-timers had to do while, at the same time, being resentful of the fact that they are not getting paid more. Also, despite the administration's desires, the school's prestige has not changed much, nor has its student body.

Thus, newer faculty members who have managed to get tenure, with publications and a heavy teaching and service load, often try to get jobs with more pay or less teaching and service. At the same time, older professors are essentially trapped, not just by age (although that is real) but also by the fact that since they have no publications, it is almost impossible to move to another institution.

If a relatively junior faculty were to get a better job, I think that there would be some resentment. Obviously, this is not the case for a full professor leaving with no job lined up, or a NTT faculty member leaving for a better job. But it might explain the general sense of demoralization that would express itself in resentment.




Hibush

Quote from: jerseyjay on August 15, 2022, 10:05:45 PM
If the culture of the school has changed, it could fuel resentment when somebody leaves....

Thus, newer faculty members who have managed to get tenure, with publications and a heavy teaching and service load, often try to get jobs with more pay or less teaching and service. At the same time, older professors are essentially trapped, not just by age (although that is real) but also by the fact that since they have no publications, it is almost impossible to move to another institution.

This phenomenon would be very difficult to manage. With so many schools raising the bar on faculty expectations over the years, but also not ending up with commensurate increases in resources in funding and student quality, this tension could be the source of a lot if departmental dysfunction. Another thing for prospective faculty to keep an eye on.