Joint appointment

[Vid]

Folks,

two different departments at my institution have offered me a joint appointment, which means they pay part of my time and I get XX% appointment in their department.

Both departments are more aligned with my research background compared to my current department (lol). Pros and cons? I am a TT faculty not sure if my home department accepts this.

Also, I met one of my colleagues recently and discussed my needs with him, at some points in our conversation, he said "if you find a better position you should think of leaving, I hate to lose you, but it would be better for your family". Not sure how to take his advice, though. He is the one who came to know about my recent campus interview thru a common colleague at the interview univ. He is a full prof and very influential in our college. I should say we had a couple of faculty who left for good recently.

Thank you, guys.

[Hegemony]

The first disadvantage I can see is that you'd have to go to twice as many meetings. All the department meetings for each department.

You'd also have to work out what other perks you'd get. For instance, we have a travel fund that pays for part of conference travel. Would each of your departments pay half? Or how would it work?

If you decide something, get it in writing, as airtight as you can get it.

[jerseyjay]

Both departments are more aligned with my research background compared to my current department (lol). Pros and cons? I am a TT faculty not sure if my home department accepts this.

What is the relationship going to be between the three departments? Are you moving entirely from your current department to these two other departments? Or are you going to be in one department but seconded (and thirded?) to the others?

The most important thing, in my mind, is to figure out where your line is. Which department will you officially be a member of?  Who will decide whether you get tenure? I have heard horror stories of people who are in joint positions and do well in one department but the other department wants to deny them tenure because the standards are different. So it is important to get this in writing.

Besides tenure, it is also important to figure out what department is your home department. My department recently had a faculty member transfer from another department, and we had a written document elaborating that they were moving from department X to department Y but would still teach half their load in department X. This was signed by the chair of both departments as well as the faculty member themselves. It had to be approved by the dean and the provost. If department X had opposed the move, it would have been much more complicated. But they are only to expected to attend one department meeting (especially since all departments hold their meetings at the same time at my university.)

This is different than a faculty member in one department teaching a course in another department, which is much more simple.

We had a case of a professor who had work experience in a particular field that was taught in Department A, but a doctorate in Department B's field. For years, they were in Department A but taught a course in Department B. Then the school eliminated the program in the field they taught, so, rather than teach intro-level courses forever, transferred to Department B. But all of this was on paper, and at each time there was an official home department.

To be honest, having more than one department is much easier once somebody has tenure. (Although it still raises questions of promotion, service.)

[mleok]

You will find that if you have an X% and 100-X% appointment, then the total amount of service expectations will exceed 100% of the service expectations for either of the individual departments.

If you don't yet have tenure, then there needs to be a clear MOU between the relevant departments that addresses how you will be evaluated for tenure, and what happens if the decision is split. For our most recent joint hires, the MOU states that if there is a split decision on tenure, the candidate will be moved to a 100% appointment in the department that voted for tenure.

[mleok]

Also, I met one of my colleagues recently and discussed my needs with him, at some points in our conversation, he said "if you find a better position you should think of leaving, I hate to lose you, but it would be better for your family". Not sure how to take his advice, though. He is the one who came to know about my recent campus interview thru a common colleague at the interview univ. He is a full prof and very influential in our college. I should say we had a couple of faculty who left for good recently.

To me, that sounds like your colleague doesn't think your current situation is viable in the longer term. I would be inclined to agree if your primary appointment is in a department that is a poor fit for your research, and your numerous posts on the issues you've had with your department strongly suggest that your department does not consider your area of research to be a priority for them.

[Vid]

mleok: I agree that my background is more aligned with another department but my current department has a very narrow area of research that is directly related to my background, as well.

I feel my colleague is disappointed with our college policy bc we had several faculty who left for good. Just one of his recent research staff members left last week (who worked with him >12 yrs) and joined the industry. The salary in my school is not at the faculty standard level despite of being a strong R1 Univ.

Thank you for your advice. 

[lightning]

Also try to figure out WHY the joint appointment was created in the first place. If the joint appointment was created out of convenience, meaning that it was created as part of an effort to pool resources in order to create or keep a full-time line that otherwise would not happen, then that is a red flag, because the position was created to save money and that's all.

If it was actually created to do innovative research, then yeah, it can be great for you.

If it's the latter, no worries because ultimately, any decisions regarding how your time is used or should be used will always point back to using your time wisely to support innovative research.

If it's the former, get out now. This is because joint appointments that were created to create something out of scarcity, will demand full-time commitment to service to each unit (e.g. meetings to be attended in both units, just for starters). This is even if there is written agreement to not expect the faculty member to attend all meetings. The norms of each unit will always have some kind of conflict with each other, and this can be devastating to your tenure case.

Joint appointments can work, but they almost never do, because most of them really are created to save money and not to be innovative. We've had these joint appointments at my university for a series of so-called cluster hires. They were touted as a new model for interdisciplinary research that would tap into the hidden synergy of faculty who were being held back by the traditional silos of academe, and that the cluster hires of joint appointments would usher in a new era of research. Today, we refer to those joint-appointments as cluster-fvck hires. All the faculty in those positions got screwed. I don't think any of them got tenure, and their "Center" was killed off.

[Vid]

lightning: Great points. love the way you made your points.

I got offers from Department A and Department B, but I am more interested in Department A. Department A wants me to teach 1 course per semester (currently I do not have a teaching appointment, mostly research). My department says Department A will get a knowledgeable and well-respected faculty to teach their courses but what we get in return. I suggested my department use my XX% appointment (which will be paid by Department A) and hire a Research Assistant Prof to work under my supervision.

I was part of a cluster hire but when I got the position, Department A and Department B did not agree to give me a joint appointment. Politics also comes into play sometimes and I am trying to stay away as much as I can :-)

[mleok]

lightning: Great points. love the way you made your points.

I got offers from Department A and Department B, but I am more interested in Department A. Department A wants me to teach 1 course per semester (currently I do not have a teaching appointment, mostly research). My department says Department A will get a knowledgeable and well-respected faculty to teach their courses but what we get in return. I suggested my department use my XX% appointment (which will be paid by Department A) and hire a Research Assistant Prof to work under my supervision.

I was part of a cluster hire but when I got the position, Department A and Department B did not agree to give me a joint appointment. Politics also comes into play sometimes and I am trying to stay away as much as I can :-)

I just wanted to say that if you're in a STEM field at a R1, then a 1 course per semester teaching load is a 100% teaching load in many institutions. What percentage is Department A offering you?

[Vid]

mleok: 15-20%-- they will have 1-2 faculty on sabbatical next academic year so they need my help with teaching. Thank you.

[mleok]

mleok: 15-20%-- they will have 1-2 faculty on sabbatical next academic year so they need my help with teaching. Thank you.

That's a ridiculously heavy teaching load for a 15-20% appointment, as I said, that is a teaching load which I would expect for a close to 100% appointment if you're in a STEM field at a R1. At that appointment level, you would be doing the equivalent of 5-7 years of a 15-20% appointment in your first year, what are their expectations after the first year?

[Vid]

mleok: Besides teaching their expectation is advising MS and Ph.D. students as needed, no service. I have to first get a green light from my department. 

[mleok]

mleok: Besides teaching their expectation is advising MS and Ph.D. students as needed, no service. I have to first get a green light from my department.

I think you need to ask the question, what's in it for you? What is their ongoing teaching expectation for a 20% appointment?

[Vid]

mleok: I need to ask Department A to see what would be the exact expectation besides teaching. I am sure there is no service. not sure about attending the faculty meeting.

I will have my mid-cycle review with the Dean, Associate Dean, and Dept Chair. do you think that would be wise to discuss the joint appointment with Departments A and B in that meeting? the good thing is I have never asked/pushed Departments A and B to offer me a joint appointment. They contacted me and offered to pay for my time.  There are some faculty in my department who asked Departments A and B for a joint appointment (0% time), but they turned them down.

My personality trait is I do not push people, I am happy where I am :)

[doc700]

I am a junior faculty and I also have a joint appointment but mine is 0%/100%.  I can easily advise PhD students from the 0% department (and participate in admitting students in my field of interest), I attend faculty meetings and I could teach (I do teach a cross-listed course between my home department and this one).  But the 0% department has no say in my tenure decision, there is only a vote from my primary department.  Technically my 0% appointment "expires" when I start my tenure review to avoid any potential confusion.  If you are untenured it might be good to clarify the policies around department(s) vote on your case.  Even if there is no service requirement, there might be a service expectation if you junior faculty and that department will vote.