Looking for insurers that sell professional liability insurance to educators. Please post the names of such companies here, and if you have a policy, the approximate premium.
I am not unionized and work at a private university. No professional association that I belong to has a relationship with a company that offers this kind of insurance. The company that I use for homeowner's and auto insurance doesn't offer professional liability insurance either; it is not included in my umbrella policy.
AAUP has faculty interests first. They work with an underwrter to provide something that may be suitable. https://ebview.com/pdfgenerator/ViewPdf/aaup/PL/2018/AAUP_EDU1000_CW_7_2017.pdf
Quote from: spork on October 27, 2023, 05:28:30 AMLooking for insurers that sell professional liability insurance to educators. Please post the names of such companies here, and if you have a policy, the approximate premium.
I am not unionized and work at a private university. No professional association that I belong to has a relationship with a company that offers this kind of insurance. The company that I use for homeowner's and auto insurance doesn't offer professional liability insurance either; it is not included in my umbrella policy.
Yikes. What subject do you teach?
I would be surprised that you would not be able to join AAUP or another state specific union even if you work at a private university (without a union). I would surmise that you could join one and they would either include insurance as part of the membership, or have a way to provide you with what you seek.
When you say you want Professional Liability Insurance, that sounds specific and may be more than what the unions offer. They probably provide protection if you are sued by a student or another faculty member for some reason, and not something to do with your discipline which may require something else.
If this is something discipline specific, then if there is a professional designation or certification in your area, the group that provides that designation likely has a policy you can buy.
Quote from: clean on October 27, 2023, 08:20:41 AM[. . .]
protection if you are sued by a student or another faculty member for some reason
[. . .]
This is what I want. I am not in a clinical field that trains students for professional certification or licensing.
A few years ago the parent of a student who flunked out threatened to sue the university. I taught a course that the student failed. I know the university's legal counsel was involved because they informed me not to communicate at all with the parent or former student. I have no faith that the university would defend me if I was sued as an individual. Given what is now happening with the econ department at James Madison U., I think it's only a matter of time before individual faculty members are sued over grades.
Quote from: Hibush on October 27, 2023, 06:12:20 AMAAUP has faculty interests first. They work with an underwrter to provide something that may be suitable. https://ebview.com/pdfgenerator/ViewPdf/aaup/PL/2018/AAUP_EDU1000_CW_7_2017.pdf
Do you know if this is current? I can't find any information about this on the public-facing AAUP website.
https://aaupbhsnj.org/national-aaup-benefits/
that pops up with a google search of AAUP liability insurance
Is this of interest?
Quote from: spork on October 27, 2023, 10:15:04 AMA few years ago the parent of a student who flunked out threatened to sue the university. I taught a course that the student failed. I know the university's legal counsel was involved because they informed me not to communicate at all with the parent or former student. I have no faith that the university would defend me if I was suQuote from: spork on October 27, 2023, 10:15:04 AMQuote from: clean on October 27, 2023, 08:20:41 AM[. . .]
protection if you are sued by a student or another faculty member for some reason
[. . .]
This is what I want. I am not in a clinical field that trains students for professional certification or licensing.
A few years ago the parent of a student who flunked out threatened to sue the university. I taught a course that the student failed. I know the university's legal counsel was involved because they informed me not to communicate at all with the parent or former student. I have no faith that the university would defend me if I was sued as an individual. Given what is now happening with the econ department at James Madison U., I think it's only a matter of time before individual faculty members are sued over grades.
I can't say this is impossible, but I think it's quite unlikely. To be clear, you can potentially be sued as an individual in a work capacity. Laws vary quite a bit by state in terms of how that works. However, it would be extremely unlikely that a student would ever sue an individual faculty member without suing the school as well. Employers are liable for most things employees do in a work capacity and suing an individual faculty member without suing the school isn't something a lawyer is going to do-schools have a lot more money.
If the school is being sued too, I would imagine it would almost be in their interest to represent the faculty member. I don't know enough about tort law to speak to the details, but a judgement against a faculty member isn't going to help the school's legal position even if the cases aren't combined and they would generally want to be coordinating legal strategy rather than have the faculty member operating out on their own.
In the example you cite of a threatened lawsuit about a grade, courts have pretty consistently held that schools have wide latitude to make academic judgements and courts shouldn't be in the business of second guessing those judgements unless there is clear evidence of a failure to follow their own policies and/or clear evidence of unlawful discrimination etc. The last thing the school is going to want to do is throw you under the bus, they are very likely to get any case dismissed by just arguing that there's no evidence that the grade was assigned based on any sort of impermissible criteria. Really, the only time they would throw you under the bus and not represent you, would be if the lawyers thought your actions were so indefensible that they would be better off arguing you were a rouge agent and they'd tried to fix things as soon as they were made aware.
Quote from: clean on October 27, 2023, 12:51:08 PMhttps://aaupbhsnj.org/national-aaup-benefits/
that pops up with a google search of AAUP liability insurance
Is this of interest?
This webpage is for a specific AAUP chapter. If I follow links I eventually end up at this AFT webpage (https://www.aft.org/member-benefits/insurance), which doesn't mention professional liability insurance.
Quote from: Caracal on October 27, 2023, 01:18:10 PM[. . .]
I think it's quite unlikely.
[. . .]
I'm not willing to bet a million dollars on what you think is unlikely.
It seems worth checking the extent to which you are legally indemnified by the university for actions you take in your work capacity. Often you are completely covered by the university for any such lawsuits and they take care of the whole thing. But as we know from other academic issues, YMMV.
Generally speaking, liability insurance is to pay for lawyers.
You are either self insured or you transfer the risk.
It is probably much cheaper to buy the insurance, than to risk paying for the attorney yourself.
And it is not just students that you worry about. If you participate in a tenure and promotion meeting that goes sideways. Maybe the university will protect you, maybe they wont. IF they dont, then who pays for the attorney?
What is another nutty faculty member decides that you 'sabotaged her career' for some nutty reason. The university may see this as a sort of 'he said/she said' issue
Ive known a couple of litigious faculty members. Best to avoid them, but you can not always do that.
Just sayin.... IF you THINK you might, maybe need liability insurance, then you do! (Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it!).
Similarly, if you have accumulated enough wealth (in the 1,000,000 neighborhood for sure), then an umbrella policy should probably be on your shopping list. They cost a few hundred dollars a year, but they provide the nasty lawyers you want working For You as the insurance company is on the line for the big dollars, and they make sure they hire the best ones to protect that money!
Would umbrella insurance cover this kind of thing?
Quote from: spork on October 27, 2023, 03:59:43 PMI'm not willing to bet a million dollars on what you think is unlikely.
Well sure, I can respect that. It's also unlikely that my house will burn down, but I still need insurance. It just gets trickier to gauge when you are insuring something more ersatz with a lot of complicated variables.
This article is old, but maybe some of the links in there will still work? (Behind paywall, but if you haven't used your two free articles you can view for free as long as you have an account.)https://www.chronicle.com/article/professors-are-urged-to-seek-liability-insurance-but-some-question-the-need/
The point one person makes in there about peace of mind makes sense. If it's affordable for you and it will keep you from feeling anxious the next time a student starts making a stink about a grade, it's probably worth it for you.
Besides indemnifying one against potential grade lawsuits, and some of the other related issues that have been mentioned here, what if any other reasons might there be for a humanities prof to wish to acquire such insurance?
Im going to answer that question somewhat indirectly.
https://www.ramseysolutions.com/retirement/the-national-study-of-millionaires-research#:~:text=The%20top%20five%20careers%20for,parents%20or%20other%20family%20members.
As teachers are one of the professions that leads to people amassing more than a million dollars, I would recommend that IF you have substantial wealth, then you should get insurance to protect it.
IF your insurer will provide it to you, an umbrella policy is likely to cover you, and not just from the issues discussed above, but from an auto accident, or many other causes. Note that not all companies will cover a teacher, or they will charge a higher premium (indicating that teachers may tend to be sued a lot, or the damages are particularly high.
Should you have a specific policy to cover you as a teacher because of the risks of being a teacher? I suppose that it would depend on the price of the policy.
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 28, 2023, 03:33:39 PMBesides indemnifying one against potential grade lawsuits, and some of the other related issues that have been mentioned here, what if any other reasons might there be for a humanities prof to wish to acquire such insurance?
Faculty member suing faculty member over actions, real or imagined, that occurred in the workplace.
Quote from: clean on October 28, 2023, 10:10:17 PMan umbrella policy is likely to cover you, and not just from the issues discussed above
Quote from: spork on October 28, 2023, 02:46:26 AMQuote from: Hegemony on October 27, 2023, 06:17:03 PMWould umbrella insurance cover this kind of thing?
Quote from: spork on October 27, 2023, 05:28:30 AM[. . .]
it is not included in my umbrella policy.
Quote from: spork on October 27, 2023, 10:15:04 AMGiven what is now happening with the econ department at James Madison U., I think it's only a matter of time before individual faculty members are sued over grades.
Wow, thanks for mentioning this, spork. Just looked up the story in the Chronicle. This news item deserves its own thread for discussion.
A google search indicates that the mainstream media has not picked up this story yet. They should. People need to know what's happening.
Yes, faculty members could sue each other. So could WM cashiers. How often are any such suits successful, or even get into a court for adjudication?
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 29, 2023, 05:23:35 PMYes, faculty members could sue each other. So could WM cashiers. How often are any such suits successful, or even get into a court for adjudication?
Doesn't matter if attorney's fees are coming out of your pocket.
Looks like folks here don't have much of an understanding of insurance or legal processes. I'll try elsewhere.
Quote from: spork on October 29, 2023, 05:30:10 PMQuote from: kaysixteen on October 29, 2023, 05:23:35 PMYes, faculty members could sue each other. So could WM cashiers. How often are any such suits successful, or even get into a court for adjudication?
Doesn't matter if attorney's fees are coming out of your pocket.
There is an alterantive for that, prepaid legal service. I can get one through my school: https://www.araglegal.com. There are other providers. The cost was pretty low, but I have not gotten it. Could be an alternative, depending on what one is at risk for.
Quote from: Cheerful on October 29, 2023, 07:06:11 AMQuote from: spork on October 27, 2023, 10:15:04 AMGiven what is now happening with the econ department at James Madison U., I think it's only a matter of time before individual faculty members are sued over grades.
Wow, thanks for mentioning this, spork. Just looked up the story in the Chronicle. This news item deserves its own thread for discussion.
A google search indicates that the mainstream media has not picked up this story yet. They should. People need to know what's happening.
What is happening? Not blaming spork or anyone else for wanting to explore the coverage or acquire it, but I just tried googling for "professor sued by student" and there are very, very few hits. Of the handful of examples I found, almost all involved professors doing things that could not reasonably be construed as their job. There's sexual harassment, of course, but also things like a professor who recruited students from their class to erase anti abortion messages in a space designated for free speech. The only case I found involving a grade was ten years ago. In that case, the professor was sued alongside the school and it appears that she was eventually dropped as a defendant. At any rate, there was no separate trial and no separate lawyers as far as I could tell. The judge ruled against the student on the grounds that there was no evidence that the grade was applied based on anything other than the professional judgement of the instructor and that the case law was clear that courts shouldn't become involved in assessing those professional judgement. While that probably wasn't a pleasant experience for the instructor, it doesn't seem like she was on the hook for any legal fees.
This article (https://www.insidehighered.com/opinion/blogs/higher-ed-gamma/2023/11/14/how-avoid-getting-sued-work-classroom) in IHE today reminded me of this thread--and over the years, I've heard of faculty being sued (or having to spend a lot of time with U counsel to avoid being sued or settle) in most of these situations.
Having the $1M liability insurance, along with access to union lawyers, is what's kept me paying union dues for 20 years (though now that I think of it, that $1M wouldn't go very far today). Still, better to have it and not need it, etc.