Hello:
I am a PhD candidate in the health sciences and I need advice on one professor I took a grad class with.
The professor and I work on opposite ends of the same campus and we do different work (we use different models) but we are in the same prog and so have somewhat frequent contact. He's tenured.
AFTER finishing his course (I got an A+), I started chatting with him more at our bi-monthly prog pizza and beer socials. And we discovered we like the same brewery, restaurants, sports team, books etc. We have definitely grown very close over the last 3 years, vent to each other, and go for dinner and movies alone. He also helps me with more academic stuff like applying for jobs, dealing with journals and editors, applying for money. I show him my paper drafts and he gives me feedback when I'm practising talks.
My relationship with him is platonic. He has never touched me except for a hand around the shoulder when we take photos or something similarly innocuous. I have never been to his house. He has been to mine but only to drop me off after dinner or the movies. I have never invited him in and he has never tried to get himself invited in. We text quite a bit but it's never inappropriate or suggestive. I introduce him to people as my professor and he introduces me as a student in the prog.
I'm applying for a postdoc soon. And given that he knows me better than even my own supervisor and he knows my work ethic, I have considered that he might be someone who can write me a letter.
The problem is: I'm worried about how it looks. We're both heterosexual and single. We go out alone off-campus and at night. He always pays for dinner because he doesn't think it's fair for a grad student to pay when she's earning a fraction of what he earns. He's older (late 50s), I'm younger (late 30s). We're obviously friendly and comfortable with each other. Not many people know we hang out but we've bumped into people we know from the prog when we're out before and they sometimes raise an eyebrow. I did ask him recently if he regularly does off-campus things with other students in the prog and he said no, adding that when he does, it's not with just one student.
IF I do ask him to write a ref letter and IF he says yes, would it look suspicious? Esp by people who've seen us outside together? Would people think I'm just "that ambitious student" who f***ed her older professor in exchange for an A+ and letter?
This is a professor I value very much in my life and I don't want to lose this relationship I've built with him but the optics really bother me.
What do you think?
Thank you.
.
I see no reason why you should not ask him to write letters. It is part of his job. Keep things very platonic. Why are you suspicious of people finding out? He will write a great letter and you are fortunate. He can probably read your facial expressions and body language, so he knows whether you are into him, and you can tell with him. I advise being alert and careful with that.
It seems odd to me that you share the same likes and dislikes. Could it be that he is agreeing with you just to be nice and encourage this bond?
QuoteAnd given that he knows me better than even my own supervisor and he knows my work ethic, I have considered that he might be someone who can write me a letter.
If this is why you want him to write you a letter, how will he explain that he knows so much about you? Probably he has enough sense not to say "I have been dating this student for 3 years and know everything about them."
Can you look at this situation and say with certainty that the reason you want him to write the letter is NOT to somehow formalize or publicize your relationship? To mark your territory, so to speak? Nowhere in the OP does it mention an intimate relationship with anyone else. How you would feel if tomorrow you found out he was spending time with another, younger graduate student in the same ways he has entertained you. Just a shrug and "so what"? Not asking you to answer here, just to take a different view. Opportunity cost can be applied to relationships as well as finances.
I advise against doing this, but why not just discuss it with him generally to see what he thinks?
He is a professional friend and mentor to you. He would be a perfect person to write a letter for you.
If you were both heterosexual, single and the professor was a woman, you wouldn't give it a second thought.
Wouldn't a postdoc application be stronger with more than one letter? So you ask both him and your supervisor. He's been a mentor.
Why worry about how a letter from him "looks"? The men applying for postdocs don't worry about this. They aim for sending in the strongest applications.
The above said, any old straight white guy who is spending that much non-work time with a straight woman in her 30s wants to get into her pants. He might be too scrupulous or too psychologically damaged to try it, but he's thinking about it.
Quote from: spork on December 23, 2019, 08:41:25 AM
The above said, any old straight white guy who is spending that much non-work time with a straight woman in her 30s wants to get into her pants. He might be too scrupulous or too psychologically damaged to try it, but he's thinking about it.
Yeah, I find it hard to believe that's not the case as well (although I don't know why white needs to be in the dedcription...). Personally, if I were him, I would be very reluctant to do this just because of the optics of it. I find it hard to imagine him taking such a risk unless he has other things in mind.
Perhaps Spork and I are off base, but most people would definitely make the same assumptions.
Quote from: miss jane marple on December 23, 2019, 07:35:42 AM
Can you look at this situation and say with certainty that the reason you want him to write the letter is NOT to somehow formalize or publicize your relationship? To mark your territory, so to speak? Nowhere in the OP does it mention an intimate relationship with anyone else. How you would feel if tomorrow you found out he was spending time with another, younger graduate student in the same ways he has entertained you. Just a shrug and "so what"? Not asking you to answer here, just to take a different view. Opportunity cost can be applied to relationships as well as finances.
I would actually feel SO MUCH BETTER if he was spending a lot of time with another grad student because it sometimes looks like I'm his special someone from the outside and I'm not!
I asked him once if it was normal for faculty to spend one on one time with students and if he does it with the other students and he said he's seen several faculty spend a lot of one on one time with their students (both different and same sexual orientation and gender pairs). He did say he rarely hangs out with other students alone though.
Quote from: ciao_yall on December 23, 2019, 08:01:06 AM
If you were both heterosexual, single and the professor was a woman, you wouldn't give it a second thought.
That is 100% correct many times over.
Quote from: spork on December 23, 2019, 08:41:25 AM
Wouldn't a postdoc application be stronger with more than one letter? So you ask both him and your supervisor. He's been a mentor.
Why worry about how a letter from him "looks"? The men applying for postdocs don't worry about this. They aim for sending in the strongest applications.
The above said, any old straight white guy who is spending that much non-work time with a straight woman in her 30s wants to get into her pants. He might be too scrupulous or too psychologically damaged to try it, but he's thinking about it.
Quote from: Kron3007 on December 23, 2019, 10:12:13 AM
Yeah, I find it hard to believe that's not the case as well (although I don't know why white needs to be in the dedcription...). Personally, if I were him, I would be very reluctant to do this just because of the optics of it. I find it hard to imagine him taking such a risk unless he has other things in mind.
Perhaps Spork and I are off base, but most people would definitely make the same assumptions.
This is why I worry about how it "looks". I know the men who apply won't worry about the optics but they rarely ever have to. As a woman, I know I always have to go above and beyond to prove that I am worthy of the same position. And I want to make sure I don't submit a postdoc job application that people will treat as her letter writer is in her pants when he really isn't.
I will be getting letters from both my supervisors and am looking for a third in case it's needed. And he seems like he could be that third.
If he is really thinking about getting in my pants even if he doesn't act on it, jesus, I need counseling.
(How'd you know he's white? I never mentioned that.)
Quote from: Myword on December 23, 2019, 07:15:40 AM
It seems odd to me that you share the same likes and dislikes. Could it be that he is agreeing with you just to be nice and encourage this bond?
I don't know for sure. But it's a lot of work pretending to agree for 3 years when you don't need to!
Quote from: ziplock on December 23, 2019, 11:01:58 AM
(How'd you know he's white? I never mentioned that.)
The reason Spork "knows" he's white is that, in the world of this thread, your professor-mentor is the villain. Spork's phrase "old straight white guy" is merely a series of pejoratives underlining that fact.
Quote from: ziplock on December 23, 2019, 10:44:01 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on December 23, 2019, 08:01:06 AM
If you were both heterosexual, single and the professor was a woman, you wouldn't give it a second thought.
That is 100% correct many times over.
It would still be a little weird. The potential problem with getting an LOR here is that if you are friends outside of the university, it could be seen as a conflict of interest. His objectivity could be compromised, even if he were female...a conflict of interest need not be sexual.
Also, I would argue that this would be just as weird if the sexes were reversed. I am male and had a female advisor, and am sure it would have raised just as many eyebrows if we (or me and another female faculty member) had been going your to see movies alone.
Quote from: Kron3007 on December 23, 2019, 12:26:36 PM
It would still be a little weird. The potential problem with getting an LOR here is that if you are friends outside of the university, it could be seen as a conflict of interest. His objectivity could be compromised, even if he were female...a conflict of interest need not be sexual.
Good point. I guess the safest thing for me to do would be to just not ask for an LOR. The integrity of the content cannot be called into question that way. Looks like I'm looking for a different third writer.
Quote from: Kron3007 on December 23, 2019, 12:26:36 PM
Quote from: ziplock on December 23, 2019, 10:44:01 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on December 23, 2019, 08:01:06 AM
If you were both heterosexual, single and the professor was a woman, you wouldn't give it a second thought.
That is 100% correct many times over.
It would still be a little weird. The potential problem with getting an LOR here is that if you are friends outside of the university, it could be seen as a conflict of interest. His objectivity could be compromised, even if he were female...a conflict of interest need not be sexual.
Also, I would argue that this would be just as weird if the sexes were reversed. I am male and had a female advisor, and am sure it would have raised just as many eyebrows if we (or me and another female faculty member) had been going your to see movies alone.
I mean, I'd say I was friends outside of the university with most of my letter writers for faculty jobs. My advisor was the only one who I wasn't really friendly with outside of work. My department chair/mentor in my first job was definitely a friend outside of work, and still is- they wrote me a letter. A faculty member in my graduate department who was on my committee and an informal mentor, who I would drink with regularly outside of work wrote me a letter.
Having mentors who you maintain personal relationships isn't a bad thing, and I'd say it's relatively common (at least in my field) for letter writers to be people who *are* friends with the people they're writing letters for.
I'd say go for it. In addition to the personal, non-work relationship they've also worked extensively with you on academic things (writing, article submission, etc.) and seem to be in a good place to talk about those as an academic mentor.
You may like to be careful with him because as it was stated he clearly wants something else from you. This is not uncommon in academia among older single faculty members. The easiest way for any male faculty to develop a sexual relationship would be with someone who the faculty have some "power" over. Since he is not your mentor he also thinks that he can get away with developing a sexual relationship with you and then ending it for one reason or another or without any clear reason. If this is what you are looking for then there is no harm in "going out at night" with him and letting him pay for dinners. If you are considering an academic career and would like to be respected, I would advise you to gradually cool it off with him and get busy with your future plans. He knows that you are leaving soon so he is not thinking to build a serious relationship with you. However, it all depends on what you are looking for.
Who the heck knows what he wants. You could just go with the flow and continue to do what you are doing and also ask for the letter. Or you could continue but not ask for the letter, discontinue and ask for the letter, or forget both.
The additional option would be just discuss it all openly, which is probably healthiest.
Quote from: ziplock on December 23, 2019, 11:01:58 AM
[. . .]
This is why I worry about how it "looks". I know the men who apply won't worry about the optics but they rarely ever have to. As a woman, I know I always have to go above and beyond to prove that I am worthy of the same position. And I want to make sure I don't submit a postdoc job application that people will treat as her letter writer is in her pants when he really isn't.
[. . .]
Is your field so small and incestuous that all faculty at all universities with postdoc positions are going to know that the two of you spend a lot of time together?
Quote from: writingprof on December 23, 2019, 12:17:55 PM
Quote from: ziplock on December 23, 2019, 11:01:58 AM
(How'd you know he's white? I never mentioned that.)
The reason Spork "knows" he's white is that, in the world of this thread, your professor-mentor is the villain. Spork's phrase "old straight white guy" is merely a series of pejoratives underlining that fact.
I resemble that remark.
Quote from: the-tenure-track-prof on December 23, 2019, 01:03:08 PM
You may like to be careful with him because as it was stated he clearly wants something else from you. This is not uncommon in academia among older single faculty members. The easiest way for any male faculty to develop a sexual relationship would be with someone who the faculty have some "power" over.
If this is what you are looking for then there is no harm in "going out at night" with him and letting him pay for dinners. If you are considering an academic career and would like to be respected, I would advise you to gradually cool it off with him and get busy with your future plans.
Jesus. I feel so stupid that I didn't ever even consider that he might have ulterior motives. I always figured faculty who wanted to get into a student's pants would have plenty to pick from that were younger and cuter.
I wish I had family who did this academic thing - I'm first gen, grew up working class - to talk to about what faculty and student relationships are like typically.
Typically they don't involve getting into each other's pants.
I'm first gen, etc., and was pretty clueless about the power dynamics in graduate school and academia. I never heard of any faculty pursuing relationships with students while in my PhD program, but I'm a guy. Over the last few years there's been some pretty egregious cases of serial harassers/abusers/predators.
It could be that this guy is just socially clueless like a lot of academics. But I doubt it.
Asking for a letter of recommendation is fine. What is not fine is going out to dinner and the movies together. What were you thinking?? Why would this not "read," and in fact be, weird and compromising? And he even pays for you? I'm gathering you want it to be romantic? Because it definitely reads as if you want it to be romantic. The fact that he has not made a move physically does not mean that it is not, at the moment, everything but physical. Both of you are playing with fire here, and both of you should stop. You need to get a new confidant, and you should say to him, "I've really appreciated the chance to hang out, but you know, the optics aren't so good, so I'm going to cut back" — and then stop it entirely, no matter what he says. And he may well be angry and there goes one of your references. But that's the price you pay for this kind of playing with fire. So cut it out right now.
Quote from: spork on December 23, 2019, 08:41:25 AM
Wouldn't a postdoc application be stronger with more than one letter? So you ask both him and your supervisor. He's been a mentor.
Why worry about how a letter from him "looks"? The men applying for postdocs don't worry about this. They aim for sending in the strongest applications.
The above said, any old straight white guy who is spending that much non-work time with a straight woman in her 30s wants to get into her pants. He might be too scrupulous or too psychologically damaged to try it, but he's thinking about it.
This comment is disgusting an inappropriate and
spork is a big crybaby for getting my response deleted.
How it looks to who (or whom?).
Will the people that get the letters know you? Will they know your mentor? Will they be so familiar with you to know your social habits?
He may be able to write a good letter. Ask him and see if he is willing. IF he knows the people that will get the letter he would know and could let you know if he is able (or not able ) to provide you a letter of reference/recommendation.
for what it is worth.
Quote from: ciao_yall on December 23, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
Quote from: spork on December 23, 2019, 08:41:25 AM
Wouldn't a postdoc application be stronger with more than one letter? So you ask both him and your supervisor. He's been a mentor.
Why worry about how a letter from him "looks"? The men applying for postdocs don't worry about this. They aim for sending in the strongest applications.
The above said, any old straight white guy who is spending that much non-work time with a straight woman in her 30s wants to get into her pants. He might be too scrupulous or too psychologically damaged to try it, but he's thinking about it.
This comment is disgusting an inappropriate and spork is a big crybaby for getting my response deleted.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Quote from: Hegemony on December 23, 2019, 02:57:03 PM
Asking for a letter of recommendation is fine. What is not fine is going out to dinner and the movies together. What were you thinking?? Why would this not "read," and in fact be, weird and compromising? And he even pays for you? I'm gathering you want it to be romantic? Because it definitely reads as if you want it to be romantic. The fact that he has not made a move physically does not mean that it is not, at the moment, everything but physical. Both of you are playing with fire here, and both of you should stop. You need to get a new confidant, and you should say to him, "I've really appreciated the chance to hang out, but you know, the optics aren't so good, so I'm going to cut back" — and then stop it entirely, no matter what he says. And he may well be angry and there goes one of your references. But that's the price you pay for this kind of playing with fire. So cut it out right now.
I absolutely do not want it to be romantic and that's why I'm asking for advice. And it appears clear in this thread that people would be suspicious.
FWIW, he's helped me with funding and papers and in all, he has no role in the review process like it's an external funding application through private foundations and papers in a different immediate area. Pretend example: we are both in agriculture and interested in the environment. I work with soil chemical compositions and he works with historical changes in government agriculture policies. We publish in different journals. But there is overlap in the people we know and work with. And I have never asked him for an LOR so there's been no compromise there.
You and rest have given me much to think about because the last thing I want is a romantic relationship or perception of one with somebody I consider to be a mentor and professional who has been so helpful with my work work! Thank you!
Quote from: eigen on December 23, 2019, 12:52:15 PM
Quote from: Kron3007 on December 23, 2019, 12:26:36 PM
Quote from: ziplock on December 23, 2019, 10:44:01 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on December 23, 2019, 08:01:06 AM
If you were both heterosexual, single and the professor was a woman, you wouldn't give it a second thought.
That is 100% correct many times over.
It would still be a little weird. The potential problem with getting an LOR here is that if you are friends outside of the university, it could be seen as a conflict of interest. His objectivity could be compromised, even if he were female...a conflict of interest need not be sexual.
Also, I would argue that this would be just as weird if the sexes were reversed. I am male and had a female advisor, and am sure it would have raised just as many eyebrows if we (or me and another female faculty member) had been going your to see movies alone.
I mean, I'd say I was friends outside of the university with most of my letter writers for faculty jobs. My advisor was the only one who I wasn't really friendly with outside of work. My department chair/mentor in my first job was definitely a friend outside of work, and still is- they wrote me a letter. A faculty member in my graduate department who was on my committee and an informal mentor, who I would drink with regularly outside of work wrote me a letter.
Having mentors who you maintain personal relationships isn't a bad thing, and I'd say it's relatively common (at least in my field) for letter writers to be people who *are* friends with the people they're writing letters for.
I'd say go for it. In addition to the personal, non-work relationship they've also worked extensively with you on academic things (writing, article submission, etc.) and seem to be in a good place to talk about those as an academic mentor.
Yeah, the lines are fuzzy and I wouldn't rule out asking them, but there is potential conflict of interest. The odd beer here and there is one thing, but if you are regularly hanging out is becomes a bit of an issue, at least in principle. In this case, the fact that he is always paying etc., Really sets off alarm bells to me, even though the reasoning is sound.
I have seen students and post docs end up marrying their PIs too, but that doesn't mean it didn't cross all sorts of lines
Quote from: spork on December 23, 2019, 03:32:14 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on December 23, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
Quote from: spork on December 23, 2019, 08:41:25 AM
Wouldn't a postdoc application be stronger with more than one letter? So you ask both him and your supervisor. He's been a mentor.
Why worry about how a letter from him "looks"? The men applying for postdocs don't worry about this. They aim for sending in the strongest applications.
The above said, any old straight white guy who is spending that much non-work time with a straight woman in her 30s wants to get into her pants. He might be too scrupulous or too psychologically damaged to try it, but he's thinking about it.
This comment is disgusting an inappropriate and spork is a big crybaby for getting my response deleted.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
I responded to your comment. Then
fast_and_bulbous deleted it and threatened to ban me.
If you have a question about a moderator action, take it to PM.
I teach at a cc, so I can't claim to be a uni professor. But I am an old, single, male, hetero, white guy. If any of you think this guy has been working ziplock for three years to get in her pants, you are out of your minds. Three years?? If any of you find pants so worth getting into that I'd work it for three years, please send the unicorn to me.
Quote from: Kron3007 on December 23, 2019, 12:26:36 PM
It would still be a little weird. The potential problem with getting an LOR here is that if you are friends outside of the university, it could be seen as a conflict of interest. His objectivity could be compromised, even if he were female...a conflict of interest need not be sexual.
That's exactly my point.
I know, every situation is different... However, I once was in a situation that I got a very good recommendation from my friend (who's a faculty member) about a student who wanted to work with me. They were actually a couple, but I thought "Who knows the student better? Well... maybe my friend is a little biased, but the recommendation is probably genuine and valuable". I was certainly right about one thing - my friend was genuine. They were massively biased though and working with the student turned out to be nightmare. Well, I'm still friends with that faculty member. I am just convinced now that I wouldn't like to get a letter of reference from someone who has a close personal relationship with the candidate (no matter if they are a couple or just good friends).
The bottom line is that someone who has a very close personal relationship with the candidate is usually not entirely objective. Subconsciously, they will want to help their friend and in the end, I want to learn a bit how the candidate works and behaves at work and not really if that's a great person to go for a beer or watch a movie together.
Those who are saying there is nothing wrong with this and it shouldn't be a concern are missing one big point: there isn't anything wrong here, but that doesn't mean it won't cause concerns for OP. The biggest problem I see is that the people who receive LoRs are often sexist, too. In other words, the optics are a problem, and they will hurt the OP, not the professor.
I tend to think supervisors who go out for movies with supervisees are trouble, personally (regardless of gender, it's pretty irresponsible). But if the relationship is platonic, I believe the OP.
Still, for the sake of protecting your career trajectory, I'd advise that yes, get your letter of recommendation! But also, assert some social boundaries with this supervisor. Meet for meals on campus. Don't hang out with him off-campus, alone. Simple, and it will protect you from some of the rumor-mongering that is the inevitable result of being young and female in this business.
This whole thread is ridiculous. The OP has a platonic relationship with a mentor who has done nothing inappropriate. Yes, the OP should use the letter. No, the OP shouldn't assume that the mentor wants to #&%$ her.
I swear, the sex panic coming from the left these days is really quite obnoxious.
Quote from: writingprof on December 24, 2019, 07:51:25 AM
This whole thread is ridiculous. The OP has a platonic relationship with a mentor who has done nothing inappropriate. Yes, the OP should use the letter. No, the OP shouldn't assume that the mentor wants to #&%$ her.
I swear, the sex panic coming from the left these days is really quite obnoxious.
Or the right, like Mike Pence refusing to be alone with women when his wife isn't present.
Quote from: writingprof on December 24, 2019, 07:51:25 AM
This whole thread is ridiculous. The OP has a platonic relationship with a mentor who has done nothing inappropriate. Yes, the OP should use the letter. No, the OP shouldn't assume that the mentor wants to #&%$ her.
This.
The recipients of the letter almost surely have no clue what the two are doing in the evenings and even if they did, they almost surely wouldn't care. Letters of recommendation are never unbiased summaries of the strengths and weaknesses of a candidate anyway: they're supposed to be glowing endorsements (outside of economics, at least). The only risk in this letter is that it risks emphasizing the OP's "warmth" and other personal characteristics, which is a trap writers for women applicants often fall into: the letter really should emphasize academic skills and contributions.
And a professor maintaining a platonic relationship for
3 years in hopes of hooking up with someone right before she leaves for a postdoc? You guys really need to get your minds out of the gutter. Men and women are perfectly capable of having friendships. There are enough undergrads with a professor fantasy that he doesn't need to wait that long if he doesn't care about potential fallout, which I doubt would be any higher than with a grad student who's planning to stay in academia.
Quote from: fast_and_bulbous on December 23, 2019, 06:46:23 PM
If you have a question about a moderator action, take it to PM.
If you have a concern about demanding to maintain the privileged, id-driven male gaze... just keep it to yourself.
Quote from: pigou on December 24, 2019, 08:58:02 AM
Quote from: writingprof on December 24, 2019, 07:51:25 AM
This whole thread is ridiculous. The OP has a platonic relationship with a mentor who has done nothing inappropriate. Yes, the OP should use the letter. No, the OP shouldn't assume that the mentor wants to #&%$ her.
This.
The recipients of the letter almost surely have no clue what the two are doing in the evenings and even if they did, they almost surely wouldn't care. Letters of recommendation are never unbiased summaries of the strengths and weaknesses of a candidate anyway: they're supposed to be glowing endorsements (outside of economics, at least). The only risk in this letter is that it risks emphasizing the OP's "warmth" and other personal characteristics, which is a trap writers for women applicants often fall into: the letter really should emphasize academic skills and contributions.
And a professor maintaining a platonic relationship for 3 years in hopes of hooking up with someone right before she leaves for a postdoc? You guys really need to get your minds out of the gutter. Men and women are perfectly capable of having friendships. There are enough undergrads with a professor fantasy that he doesn't need to wait that long if he doesn't care about potential fallout, which I doubt would be any higher than with a grad student who's planning to stay in academia.
Well, I don't think they have been playing the long game in hopes of hooking up now, but I suspect they had hopes the whole time. Just because he hasn't acted dosnt mean he didnt want it to happen. Yes, men and women can be friends, but I don't usually take my friends out on dates, which is what these sound like. I could be wrong and this guy has no interest, but I still think he does.
Quote from: Kron3007 on December 24, 2019, 10:10:34 AM
Quote from: pigou on December 24, 2019, 08:58:02 AM
Quote from: writingprof on December 24, 2019, 07:51:25 AM
This whole thread is ridiculous. The OP has a platonic relationship with a mentor who has done nothing inappropriate. Yes, the OP should use the letter. No, the OP shouldn't assume that the mentor wants to #&%$ her.
This.
The recipients of the letter almost surely have no clue what the two are doing in the evenings and even if they did, they almost surely wouldn't care. Letters of recommendation are never unbiased summaries of the strengths and weaknesses of a candidate anyway: they're supposed to be glowing endorsements (outside of economics, at least). The only risk in this letter is that it risks emphasizing the OP's "warmth" and other personal characteristics, which is a trap writers for women applicants often fall into: the letter really should emphasize academic skills and contributions.
And a professor maintaining a platonic relationship for 3 years in hopes of hooking up with someone right before she leaves for a postdoc? You guys really need to get your minds out of the gutter. Men and women are perfectly capable of having friendships. There are enough undergrads with a professor fantasy that he doesn't need to wait that long if he doesn't care about potential fallout, which I doubt would be any higher than with a grad student who's planning to stay in academia.
Well, I don't think they have been playing the long game in hopes of hooking up now, but I suspect they had hopes the whole time. Just because he hasn't acted dosnt mean he didnt want it to happen. Yes, men and women can be friends, but I don't usually take my friends out on dates, which is what these sound like. I could be wrong and this guy has no interest, but I still think he does.
Depends how you define dates, but I certainly do. I go out to dinner and movies with friends and colleagues of both the same and opposite sex. They're friends. I pay for them when they're making less than I do too, as well. And they often pay for me when they do.
To me, a date implies romantic interest, not some specific set of activities. So if the OP is in a platonic relationship, they aren't dates.
To be honest, the first and only time the thought even entered my head that he was trying to get into my pants is after I posted on this thread. And I did panic. And now I feel so bad because he has never been inappropriate. I've never been inappropriate with him either. Even when we've both been drinking. Either of us could have tried jumping the other when we were tipsy (if sex was what we wanted from each other) but we never did.
I'll make an appointment to talk to him at his office about whether a ref letter is even a possibility and if it's appropriate. And if it is, what are the limits of the content. I'll definitely raise the issue of "warmth" and personal characteristics that @pigou talked about. We have this unspoken rule that if it's work-related, we meet at the office and when we meet outside, we only do non-work stuff. So we complain about a reviewer's unfair review in the office and complain that the Canucks played a bad game at dinner. It's worked well so far and hopefully, it'll work well for this too.
Please continue to share your opinions and thoughts. They have all been very helpful to me. Thank you.
Quote from: eigen on December 24, 2019, 11:59:23 AM
Well, I don't think they have been playing the long game in hopes of hooking up now, but I suspect they had hopes the whole time. Just because he hasn't acted dosnt mean he didnt want it to happen. Yes, men and women can be friends, but I don't usually take my friends out on dates, which is what these sound like. I could be wrong and this guy has no interest, but I still think he does.
Depends how you define dates, but I certainly do. I go out to dinner and movies with friends and colleagues of both the same and opposite sex. They're friends. I pay for them when they're making less than I do too, as well. And they often pay for me when they do.
To me, a date implies romantic interest, not some specific set of activities. So if the OP is in a platonic relationship, they aren't dates.
[/quote]
Yeah, this seems like an odd notion. A lot of this just has to do with where people are in their lives at a particular moment. Right now my life is organized in a way that I don't often have one on one activities with friends (probably something I should try to do more of...) but at various times in my life I have. A lot of these were times when my partner was out of town for extended periods and there was someone else around who also had time on their hands and wanted company. Over the years there have been quite a few people of both genders who I started regularly having drinks or dinner with, or even going over to their house and cooking together. It sounds like you and this guy just are filling a role in each other's lives and it doesn't seem nefarious at all to me.
It may not be nefarious or seem nefarious, but the power difference means that it is something to steer clear of. First, a lot of inappropriate relationships start out as appropriate ones, and then just slide into something inappropriate, either because of the lack of boundaries of one or another of the parties, or because the closeness just makes the participants lose perspective on what is appropriate. Palsy relationships between superiors and subordinates are verboten for a reason, whether in academia, in management, or what have you. The second reasons is that even if there is nothing untoward and sexual going on, there is the appearance that there might be — which can poison the atmosphere in various ways. It doesn't make either party look better. And even without something sexual going on, there can easily be an appearance of favoritism. If he has to give you a bad grade, will he? If someone asks which student from the department should get the top-student award, is he going to be studiously neutral in his assessments? If you confide that you're having trouble with so-and-so aspect of your work, is he going to put that knowledge aside when someone asks for the name of a promising, confident candidate for X? The blurring of boundaries opens the door to all kinds of inquities, both advantageous and disadvantageous. I am a little surprised that this should be news to the OP, but especially dismayed that these issues have apparently never occurred to the faculty member in questions. All faculty should be vigilantly mindful of these things.
Quote from: Hegemony on December 26, 2019, 02:09:06 PM
... And even without something sexual going on, there can easily be an appearance of favoritism... If someone asks which student from the department should get the top-student award, is he going to be studiously neutral in his assessments? ...
This is exactly what I mean.
Will the recipients of the letter know about this platonic relationship? Most likely not. Would they like to get a LOR from a senior faculty member involved in such a platonic relationship? Well, probably some don't care... I wouldn't like to get one, but how would I know? It's not a big deal, really, but there is a potential problem with it.
As some implied, the best thing to do is talk about it openly with the faculty member.
Quote from: eigen on December 24, 2019, 11:59:23 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on December 24, 2019, 10:10:34 AM
Quote from: pigou on December 24, 2019, 08:58:02 AM
Quote from: writingprof on December 24, 2019, 07:51:25 AM
This whole thread is ridiculous. The OP has a platonic relationship with a mentor who has done nothing inappropriate. Yes, the OP should use the letter. No, the OP shouldn't assume that the mentor wants to #&%$ her.
This.
The recipients of the letter almost surely have no clue what the two are doing in the evenings and even if they did, they almost surely wouldn't care. Letters of recommendation are never unbiased summaries of the strengths and weaknesses of a candidate anyway: they're supposed to be glowing endorsements (outside of economics, at least). The only risk in this letter is that it risks emphasizing the OP's "warmth" and other personal characteristics, which is a trap writers for women applicants often fall into: the letter really should emphasize academic skills and contributions.
And a professor maintaining a platonic relationship for 3 years in hopes of hooking up with someone right before she leaves for a postdoc? You guys really need to get your minds out of the gutter. Men and women are perfectly capable of having friendships. There are enough undergrads with a professor fantasy that he doesn't need to wait that long if he doesn't care about potential fallout, which I doubt would be any higher than with a grad student who's planning to stay in academia.
Well, I don't think they have been playing the long game in hopes of hooking up now, but I suspect they had hopes the whole time. Just because he hasn't acted dosnt mean he didnt want it to happen. Yes, men and women can be friends, but I don't usually take my friends out on dates, which is what these sound like. I could be wrong and this guy has no interest, but I still think he does.
Depends how you define dates, but I certainly do. I go out to dinner and movies with friends and colleagues of both the same and opposite sex. They're friends. I pay for them when they're making less than I do too, as well. And they often pay for me when they do.
To me, a date implies romantic interest, not some specific set of activities. So if the OP is in a platonic relationship, they aren't dates.
True. This could be completely platonic on both sides, but he could also be hoping for more, only one person knows the answer to this. Most times I see things that look fishy, I end up seeing fish, but this could be an exception.
However, it is quite obvious that the appearance of this would raise eyebrows. I think the OP is safe to use them as a reference as the people reading them will not know any of these details, but the letter would be biased in a way it should not be (but this is a pretty minor situation).
Quote from: Hegemony on December 26, 2019, 02:09:06 PM
If he has to give you a bad grade, will he? If someone asks which student from the department should get the top-student award, is he going to be studiously neutral in his assessments? If you confide that you're having trouble with so-and-so aspect of your work, is he going to put that knowledge aside when someone asks for the name of a promising, confident candidate for X? The blurring of boundaries opens the door to all kinds of inquities, both advantageous and disadvantageous. I am a little surprised that this should be news to the OP, but especially dismayed that these issues have apparently never occurred to the faculty member in questions. All faculty should be vigilantly mindful of these things.
I'm done with course work and so giving me a bad grade is out of the question. I only started getting to know him as a person months after I took his class because we started chatting at our programs's twice a month pizza and beer nights.
The rest of the points are well taken. For the last 3 years that we've hung out, I haven't applied for anything inside the department, program, and university so there has been no favouritism or dis-favouritism there. I can't say whether he would bat for me or against me if I were to go up for something of if he would just recuse himself altogether as the issue hasn't come up. I suspect he will be quite fair either way (He has told me when my works sucks. He doesn't mollycoddle and try and make me feel better. But he also tells me when I do something well. And I respect him for being honest both ways) but I can't swear on it.
This thread has been genuinely interesting, in part because it illustrates the tremendously complicated and fraught nature of academic relationships. How did our world get so byzantine and inhuman? Or maybe it always was...
None of us can know what this relationship really is unless we know Ziplock and her friend / paramour / good-idea / bad-idea / mentor / colleague / letter-writer personally----and then we'd need to know them pretty well.
If Ziplock is genuine and not a brilliant troll (forgive me Ziplock if you are for real) it is not impossible that her mentor is in the midst of some unusual but viable conflict:
***i.e. he is in love with Ziplock and knows that any romantic overtures will end the relationship;
***he truly wants to try romance but, because of whatever hang-up, cannot force himself to make the first move;
***he just wants a friend and, for whatever reason, he is immune to the typical older-white-male-gaze-ID reaction we expect. Are you sure, Ziplock, that your friend likes girls?
If the mentor is just a friend and ultimately just wants friendship, I would expect him to do a "group thing" sometime such as "Hey, Prof. Mellon and Prof. Dinglehoffer and I are gonna catch a flick, want to tag along?" Incorporating one's platonic friends into an existing friend group is fairly common. Or perhaps he understands the optics and avoids other faculty when in the company of Ziplock outside of the beer-and-pizza bashes.
Ziplock, does your friend have other friends he regularly hangs with or are you perhaps filling a loneliness void somehow?
He may have the most integrity of anyone ever. Although from what's been described, I have my doubts about his maturity level, because he is playing with fire in multiple ways. But even if plays straight by everyone, how is anyone to be sure of that? If I know this is going on, and I have to ask him for an assessment of Ziplock, and he says Ziplock is a fine scholar and will make a fine professional, how am I to know if that assessment is unbiased? I have certainly seen cases where a similar close friendship (or more) is going on and the prof acts unbiased, and maybe even believes they are, but looking back at the situation, certainly bias was going on, and I don't think better of either party in retrospect. And the students get extra help, advice, and support in landing positions, and I don't blame others from protesting, "What do I have to do, cozy up to a professor? Because I didn't do the favoritism thing, I'm one down in the hierarchy?" That kind of resentment, warranted or not, can poison a career. I am somewhat gobsmacked that these issues haven't occurred to the OP, and of course very unimpressed that these issues haven't occurred to the prof in question, or that if they have, he's put them aside in favor of his own desire to be bill-paying pals with women lower in the hierarchy. I even wonder if this is a troll, the situation is so obviously egregious. Whether or no, for all who are tempted into similar relationships, there are the warning bells, there are the red flags.
It's always true that some students will get more support from an adviser than others. This could be because the faculty has more personal interests in common, thinks their research is more promising, shares a hometown, went to the same undergrad, thinks they're cute, or likes their sense of humor.
Human relationships are complex and there will always be complicated power dynamics. If you let that stop you from having friends (or romantic relationships), life will be pretty lonely.
If you're worried that you're getting an undeservedly good evaluation, you're genuinely worrying about the wrong thing. Spend your time thinking about who will write the strongest applications and how you can strengthen it further before it comes time to apply. Ask all your advisers to use informal channels, if any, to help you get the positions you want most. Otherwise, you're handicapping yourself at a time when doing so will have the biggest (and worst) consequences for your career.
Be glad that you had a deep friendship like this in graduate school. That kind of emotional support is often hard to find and immensely useful. Don't spend your time and energy thinking about what others' nefarious motivations might be. You'll only drive yourself crazy and there's no upside to it.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 26, 2019, 07:41:37 PM
This thread has been genuinely interesting, in part because it illustrates the tremendously complicated and fraught nature of academic relationships. How did our world get so byzantine and inhuman? Or maybe it always was...
None of us can know what this relationship really is unless we know Ziplock and her friend / paramour / good-idea / bad-idea / mentor / colleague / letter-writer personally----and then we'd need to know them pretty well.
If Ziplock is genuine and not a brilliant troll (forgive me Ziplock if you are for real) it is not impossible that her mentor is in the midst of some unusual but viable conflict:
***i.e. he is in love with Ziplock and knows that any romantic overtures will end the relationship;
***he truly wants to try romance but, because of whatever hang-up, cannot force himself to make the first move;
***he just wants a friend and, for whatever reason, he is immune to the typical older-white-male-gaze-ID reaction we expect. Are you sure, Ziplock, that your friend likes girls?
If the mentor is just a friend and ultimately just wants friendship, I would expect him to do a "group thing" sometime such as "Hey, Prof. Mellon and Prof. Dinglehoffer and I are gonna catch a flick, want to tag along?" Incorporating one's platonic friends into an existing friend group is fairly common. Or perhaps he understands the optics and avoids other faculty when in the company of Ziplock outside of the beer-and-pizza bashes.
Ziplock, does your friend have other friends he regularly hangs with or are you perhaps filling a loneliness void somehow?
1) Definitely not a troll!
2) I often invite him to join me and my friends (including students in the program) as a group. He comes for all 30% of the time quite happily: BBQs, hockey and football nights etc.
3) He has actually never invited me to join his friends. I believe he genuinely has some because he has turned down the invites 70% of the time because he has other plans and he has mentioned several repeating characters. I have, however, met his ex-wife whom he is on good terms with and his 3 adult sons.
4) As far as I know, he's heterosexual, but of course it is possible he is in the closet or hasn't quite accepted it himself?
To be honest, it would be so weird if the speculations here about him being in love with / likes me are true. Which man would play friend for THREE YEARS with a woman he likes without even hinting that there's interest? We've never even hugged and I bear hug all my friends who want hugs regardless of gender!
Quote from: Hegemony on December 26, 2019, 07:45:00 PM
I am somewhat gobsmacked that these issues haven't occurred to the OP, and of course very unimpressed that these issues haven't occurred to the prof in question, or that if they have, he's put them aside in favor of his own desire to be bill-paying pals with women lower in the hierarchy. I even wonder if this is a troll, the situation is so obviously egregious. Whether or no, for all who are tempted into similar relationships, there are the warning bells, there are the red flags.
Not a troll! Really not a troll!
I am honest when I say the issue didn't occur to me until recently when I sat down to think who I would ask for letters for my postdoc. I asked my friends for their advice and those I asked all named him. My brothers named him as well. To be fair, most of my friends are first gen like myself, so we could all have missed something quite obvious to everyone else.
I'm glad I asked this question here even if 2 people now think I'm a troll! This ref letter thing has been eating at me because it suddenly occured to me when I started thinking about ref letters that the optics might look very bad. I see this man as a prof, mentor, colleague and friend I value and respect and he seems to see the same in me. But this thread shows quite clearly others might not see it that way and it can look very bad.
I really want to cry right now because I am so conflicted and confused.
As my wife says, stop acting like a woman. Get strong letters of support from your supervisors who know your work. Apply for postdocs. The rest is irrelevant.
Quote from: pigou on December 26, 2019, 08:13:58 PM
It's always true that some students will get more support from an adviser than others. This could be because the faculty has more personal interests in common, thinks their research is more promising, shares a hometown, went to the same undergrad, thinks they're cute, or likes their sense of humor.
Human relationships are complex and there will always be complicated power dynamics. If you let that stop you from having friends (or romantic relationships), life will be pretty lonely.
If you're worried that you're getting an undeservedly good evaluation, you're genuinely worrying about the wrong thing. Spend your time thinking about who will write the strongest applications and how you can strengthen it further before it comes time to apply. Ask all your advisers to use informal channels, if any, to help you get the positions you want most. Otherwise, you're handicapping yourself at a time when doing so will have the biggest (and worst) consequences for your career.
Be glad that you had a deep friendship like this in graduate school. That kind of emotional support is often hard to find and immensely useful. Don't spend your time and energy thinking about what others' nefarious motivations might be. You'll only drive yourself crazy and there's no upside to it.
I think this is a good point.
Ziplock, you definitely should not blame yourself for it. There is no reason to do it. As you see forumites are divided here. Furthermore, only you and that prof have an accurate overview of what's going on and how it looks like, and we don't. We can only share our thoughts having all the information you give us. All that was written here just tells you that there could be some potential conflicts or risks in such situations. However, you seem to have been aware of this all the time. Otherwise, you probably wouldn't ask about it.
I think that you are over-analyzing this and that this would be an excellent third letter.
Quote from: larryc on December 28, 2019, 07:14:19 PM
I think that you are over-analyzing this and that this would be an excellent third letter.
I basically agree. Despite the turns this thread has taken, I don't think there is any issue with asking this person for a letter of recommendation.
I have a very close relationship with my mentor at my current job. We take long bubble baths together and discuss my teaching in intimate detail. Afterwards we rub each other down with oil while talking about the department, our families, lives, and Greco-Roman wrestling. We eat chocolate-dipped strawberries, play chess, cuddle in a soft feather bed, model underwear, slow-dance to Barry White songs, talk about our families and lives some more, watch pornographic videos, do some more oil wrestling, and then I fall asleep on hu's shoulder. In the morning hu brings me orange slices on a little red plate.
Sometimes I call and ask hu what hu is wearing. Sometimes hu and I exchange pictures of fruit and writing implements on our cellphones. And sometimes I write hu a sonnet.
But there is nothing romantic or even sexual about the relationship. We are just friends. I sometimes worry that there might be some sublimated attraction between us, but then I realize how silly that idea is between professional colleagues.
I also worry a bit about the optics. But then again, I think we worry a bit too much about normal human interactions in academia. So sad that we have become so paranoid about our fellow academics, people who naturally share interests and professional experiences with us. Perhaps we all need psilocybin therapy.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 29, 2019, 07:51:56 PM
I have a very close relationship with my mentor at my current job. We take long bubble baths together and discuss my teaching in intimate detail. Afterwards we rub each other down with oil while talking about the department, our families, lives, and Greco-Roman wrestling. We eat chocolate-dipped strawberries, play chess, cuddle in a soft feather bed, model underwear, slow-dance to Barry White songs, talk about our families and lives some more, watch pornographic videos, do some more oil wrestling, and then I fall asleep on hu's shoulder. In the morning hu brings me orange slices on a little red plate.
Sometimes I call and ask hu what hu is wearing. Sometimes hu and I exchange pictures of fruit and writing implements on our cellphones. And sometimes I write hu a sonnet.
But there is nothing romantic or even sexual about the relationship. We are just friends. I sometimes worry that there might be some sublimated attraction between us, but then I realize how silly that idea is between professional colleagues.
I also worry a bit about the optics. But then again, I think we worry a bit too much about normal human interactions in academia. So sad that we have become so paranoid about our fellow academics, people who naturally share interests and professional experiences with us. Perhaps we all need psilocybin therapy.
I can honestly see no reasonable purpose for this other than mocking the OP.
And this type of reaction is exactly why we have an OP "overthinking" something that they shouldn't.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 29, 2019, 07:51:56 PM
I have a very close relationship with my mentor at my current job. We take long bubble baths together and discuss my teaching in intimate detail. Afterwards we rub each other down with oil while talking about the department, our families, lives, and Greco-Roman wrestling. We eat chocolate-dipped strawberries, play chess, cuddle in a soft feather bed, model underwear, slow-dance to Barry White songs, talk about our families and lives some more, watch pornographic videos, do some more oil wrestling, and then I fall asleep on hu's shoulder. In the morning hu brings me orange slices on a little red plate.
Sometimes I call and ask hu what hu is wearing. Sometimes hu and I exchange pictures of fruit and writing implements on our cellphones. And sometimes I write hu a sonnet.
But there is nothing romantic or even sexual about the relationship. We are just friends. I sometimes worry that there might be some sublimated attraction between us, but then I realize how silly that idea is between professional colleagues.
I also worry a bit about the optics. But then again, I think we worry a bit too much about normal human interactions in academia. So sad that we have become so paranoid about our fellow academics, people who naturally share interests and professional experiences with us. Perhaps we all need psilocybin therapy.
I think your psilocybin provider is definitely making a lot of money off of you because you're on a beautiful trip.
As for everyone else, thanks for your input. It's been very much helpful to me.
QuoteI have a very close relationship with my mentor at my current job. We take long bubble baths together and discuss my teaching in intimate detail. Afterwards we rub each other down with oil while
,,,
Perhaps we all need psilocybin therapy.
BOOOO
If you can not say something nice or at least helpful, say nothing at all.
Sorry folks, I'm not buying this one any more.
At first I did, but then we had long conversations lying at opposite ends of the couch and sailing around the harbor...and no, I can't say sure what we have here, but I have a very hard time believing the stories anymore. I think someone jumped the shark.
I suspect we have more than one troll on the boards (one with a specific agenda, one for fun), not just on this thread but on others, which is fine with me, but let's not pretend either.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 30, 2019, 09:17:46 PM
Sorry folks, I'm not buying this one any more.
At first I did, but then we had long conversations lying at opposite ends of the couch and sailing around the harbor...and no, I can't say sure what we have here, but I have a very hard time believing the stories anymore. I think someone jumped the shark.
I suspect we have more than one troll on the boards (one with a specific agenda, one for fun), not just on this thread but on others, which is fine with me, but let's not pretend either.
Honestly, the only one I'm seeing troll here is you.
I thought Wahoo's post was pretty funny.
I, for one, am having trouble reconciling the politics of this thread. I mean, presumably you all hate Mike Pence and the "Pence Rule," but it seems that most of you also instinctively dislike the OP's mentor. Why? Is it really just that he's white and old?
Quote from: writingprof on December 31, 2019, 07:44:58 AM
I, for one, am having trouble reconciling the politics of this thread. I mean, presumably you all hate Mike Pence and the "Pence Rule," but it seems that most of you also instinctively dislike the OP's mentor. Why? Is it really just that he's white and old?
Talk about apples and oranges. Having a meal with a member of the opposite sex as part of your job is quite different than having a long term relationship outside of work with someone and then using them as a professional reference. That being said, I don't have any hatred toward the OP or the faculty member, although I suspect he has other interests and see this as a (small) conflict of interest.
The thing about being scholars who appreciate witty remarks and the occasional display of well-crafted wit In discourse is that we have to remember the human side of our discourse and rein in the wit when it has the potential to hurt someone.
I agree, Wahoo's post was very funny and well-written, but it might have been better posted on the 'Asides' thread.
There is a serious component in this thread which is being overlooked, and that is that innocence, a certain measure of unwitting ignorance, and simple human need can get people entangled in things that create certain levels of confusion as they progress.
When something like the need for an unbiased letter heaves its head up in what has been a pleasant, unstressed ocean of calm connection, the sudden need to define things that were going on pleasantly undefined can be a shock to that pleasant system.
I was also raised to think well of people, work towards best ends, and base my expectations of others on the belief that they were doing the same. In my case it landed me in an abusive marriage because I had no idea of what to look for. Thankfully, the OP's situation is less dire.
But they are being brought up against this sudden wall of confusion that they might--but also, reasonably, might not--have foreseen or realized earlier as they went down that pleasant path. There are really two crises going on at once: one is the momentary question of whether to seek a reference letter from someone (In this case, I'd probably avoid doing that if possible: optics for younger females are still a minefield and you don't need that potential complication going forward). The other is the feeling of being brought up short by the larger question of defining a relationship that has seemed like something pleasant and non-threatening that didn't need definition: in fact,, a loss-of-innocence thing.
I can be as cynical as the next one, but I happen to think that innocence is a precious, tender commodity that should not be ripped at and torn away when it needs to be shed in some specific setting. When someone trusts you to share a crisis that involves its loss, I'm in favor of respecting the person who maintained the courage to go on in their innocence as long as they could.
Human beauty in behaviour is a rare thing, and even if (as it may, rightly, here, I think, need to be abandoned, either because, optics, or because the situation may have run its course) that's a hard thing to do alone. We're being asked, respectfully, for wisdom on the issue.
The least we can do is be respectful in return.
M.
Quote from: writingprof on December 31, 2019, 07:44:58 AM
I, for one, am having trouble reconciling the politics of this thread. I mean, presumably you all hate Mike Pence and the "Pence Rule," but it seems that most of you also instinctively dislike the OP's mentor. Why? Is it really just that he's white and old?
You're not known for your exercise in good faith debate when it comes to this topic, but here goes: it's not appropriate for faculty mentors to maintain close personal relationships with their students. It's a blurring of the hierarchical boundaries that exist in the mentoring relationship, and it puts the student in a potentially difficult space of having the navigate "optics," socially injure their mentor, or risk retaliation for non-academic reasons. No, it's not purely about sex, but it is often the case that advisors that push for these blurry relationships are also sexual harassers.
Reading only what OP reports in this thread, I don't see evidence of sexual harassment or tension. But that doesn't mean the advisor hasn't crossed a line they shouldn't have. That the OP is questioning themselves is one natural manifestation of the problem. It's the least toxic outcome of a poor mentorship style... but it's still a toxic outcome that could easily have been avoided.
TLDR: they are students, not buddies. Trying to make them buddies is usually about the advisor's ego, and that is toxic.
Quote from: nescafe on January 01, 2020, 01:37:37 PM
Quote from: writingprof on December 31, 2019, 07:44:58 AM
I, for one, am having trouble reconciling the politics of this thread. I mean, presumably you all hate Mike Pence and the "Pence Rule," but it seems that most of you also instinctively dislike the OP's mentor. Why? Is it really just that he's white and old?
You're not known for your exercise in good faith debate when it comes to this topic, but here goes: it's not appropriate for faculty mentors to maintain close personal relationships with their students. It's a blurring of the hierarchical boundaries that exist in the mentoring relationship, and it puts the student in a potentially difficult space of having the navigate "optics," socially injure their mentor, or risk retaliation for non-academic reasons. No, it's not purely about sex, but it is often the case that advisors that push for these blurry relationships are also sexual harassers.
Reading only what OP reports in this thread, I don't see evidence of sexual harassment or tension. But that doesn't mean the advisor hasn't crossed a line they shouldn't have. That the OP is questioning themselves is one natural manifestation of the problem. It's the least toxic outcome of a poor mentorship style... but it's still a toxic outcome that could easily have been avoided.
TLDR: they are students, not buddies. Trying to make them buddies is usually about the advisor's ego, and that is toxic.
Your ideology exhausts me.
Quote from: nescafe on January 01, 2020, 01:37:37 PM
Reading only what OP reports in this thread, I don't see evidence of sexual harassment or tension. But that doesn't mean the advisor hasn't crossed a line they shouldn't have. That the OP is questioning themselves is one natural manifestation of the problem. It's the least toxic outcome of a poor mentorship style... but it's still a toxic outcome that could easily have been avoided.
Regardless of whether one thinks the actions of the prof in the OP's case were completely OK or not, I think calling it
"toxic" is an overstatement based on everything the OP has said.
Let's call it "potentially problematic," in optics and after-effects, even if, unusually, not problematic at the time.
I more or less agree with Hegemony, but only partially because of optics. I think the more serious issue even if you think the relationship is fine (whatever it might be and regardless of whether or not anyone ever had a sexual thought) Is that there is a glaring conflict of interest. In general, I don't think close friends should be writing letters of reference for each other. Since it's likely not ever going to be spotted by anybody, this is more about adherence to unenforceable standards than it is about doing anything horribly wrong.
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 01, 2020, 02:19:54 PM
Regardless of whether one thinks the actions of the prof in the OP's case were completely OK or not, I think calling it "toxic" is an overstatement based on everything the OP has said.
Point taken. My argument was mostly that the professor in this equation has a poor mentorship style, and it's exposing his student to possible issues. A truly inclusive mentorship practice would look a lot more structured than this, even if the result is less chummy.
Getting back to the OP...
For one, I question how common it is these days for people to request LOR's and/or call references for postdoc candidates. I've agreed to be a reference for several people applying for postdocs and jobs and I've only twice gotten a phone call (so maybe a 10% response rate at best). Perhaps the health sciences is different than the STEM fields I'm allied with. Nevertheless, it's possible the risk here is small, and really need not be given a second thought by the OP.
The second thing I think might need to be questioned is what you've said here:
Quote from: ziplock on December 23, 2019, 01:42:43 AM
IF I do ask him to write a ref letter and IF he says yes, would it look suspicious? Esp by people who've seen us outside together? Would people think I'm just "that ambitious student" who f***ed her older professor in exchange for an A+ and letter?
I think you have have been wildly misinformed. When I am serving as a reference, I usually have no clue about who else the candidate has listed as a reference (unless I was the person who gave them advice on who they should select). And how would any professor know that you got an A+ in a class other than one of their own? Grades are confidential, so if I was your reference, there would be no way for me to know how your other professor graded you in their class... besides, maybe that professor gives A+'s to all the students! I really don't care about grades when I'm evaluating a postdoc candidate, it's more about their skills, track record, communication abilities, etc. The other thing I question is... how would another professor know who has "f***ed" who? That's definitely not the kind of thing that is talked about around here, if it's happening. Overall, I think you're over-thinking the situation and have misinformation fueling it. Just ask your major professor if they agree with the people you'd like to list as references and then just go from there.
The thing I find concerning, however, is your choice of words in your post and situations you've described, which is perhaps the reason some others have suggested you are a troll. What you described is a load of drama, more like something an undergrad might write or do, but not something from a doctoral student / aspiring professional. Perhaps I'm off base here because your field is different from mine, but I would strongly encourage you to "tune in" to what the professional behavioral norms are in your scientific / professional discipline. Since you're going on for a postdoc position, I assume you aspire to become a faculty member or have a professional career in that field. It will be important that you open your eyes to the social-professional norms for your career field and avoid any behaviors that could be used against you in your professional life, later on. I'm not saying this to try to be hurtful, I am saying this to be honest. I have worked with several Ph.D.'s who are great scientists but whose lack of ability to "tune in" to the social-professional norms has cost them job opportunities.
Quote from: mr_spicoli on December 23, 2019, 07:59:25 PM
I teach at a cc, so I can't claim to be a uni professor. But I am an old, single, male, hetero, white guy. If any of you think this guy has been working ziplock for three years to get in her pants, you are out of your minds. Three years?? If any of you find pants so worth getting into that I'd work it for three years, please send the unicorn to me.
Hahahaha, this was my thought too. Three years?!
Quote from: no1capybara on January 10, 2020, 11:11:04 AM
Quote from: mr_spicoli on December 23, 2019, 07:59:25 PM
I teach at a cc, so I can't claim to be a uni professor. But I am an old, single, male, hetero, white guy. If any of you think this guy has been working ziplock for three years to get in her pants, you are out of your minds. Three years?? If any of you find pants so worth getting into that I'd work it for three years, please send the unicorn to me.
Hahahaha, this was my thought too. Three years?!
I planted an apple tree in my yard and tend to it with the hope of one day eating some apples from this tree, perhaps next year or maybe three years from now. I have not stopped eating other apples while I wait for this to happen. Perhaps this tree will never bloom. I will not be too upset if that is the case, but that is the reason I planted it and it is the reason I tend to it now.
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 10, 2020, 12:36:38 PM
Quote from: no1capybara on January 10, 2020, 11:11:04 AM
Quote from: mr_spicoli on December 23, 2019, 07:59:25 PM
I teach at a cc, so I can't claim to be a uni professor. But I am an old, single, male, hetero, white guy. If any of you think this guy has been working ziplock for three years to get in her pants, you are out of your minds. Three years?? If any of you find pants so worth getting into that I'd work it for three years, please send the unicorn to me.
Hahahaha, this was my thought too. Three years?!
I planted an apple tree in my yard and tend to it with the hope of one day eating some apples from this tree, perhaps next year or maybe three years from now. I have not stopped eating other apples while I wait for this to happen. Perhaps this tree will never bloom. I will not be too upset if that is the case, but that is the reason I planted it and it is the reason I tend to it now.
But when the tree bears fruit, it's your fruit and there is no compunction with taking it. Whereas if this professor is thinking about sex with ziplock, he's also made up his mind not to act on it. Which we call being trustworthy.
She can decide to act on it, however. But the relationship is still enjoyable for him if she never does.
That's if it's not a troll thread.
Quote from: Kron3007 on December 23, 2019, 10:12:13 AM
Quote from: spork on December 23, 2019, 08:41:25 AM
The above said, any old straight white guy who is spending that much non-work time with a straight woman in her 30s wants to get into her pants. He might be too scrupulous or too psychologically damaged to try it, but he's thinking about it.
Yeah, I find it hard to believe that's not the case as well (although I don't know why white needs to be in the dedcription...).
Things get dull otherwise. And that's what the PhD is for, so you can develop a finely tuned habit of critical thinking and discernment and then accuse people of things because they are white.
Quote from: mahagonny on January 10, 2020, 04:35:02 PM
Quote from: Kron3007 on December 23, 2019, 10:12:13 AM
Quote from: spork on December 23, 2019, 08:41:25 AM
The above said, any old straight white guy who is spending that much non-work time with a straight woman in her 30s wants to get into her pants. He might be too scrupulous or too psychologically damaged to try it, but he's thinking about it.
Yeah, I find it hard to believe that's not the case as well (although I don't know why white needs to be in the dedcription...).
Things get dull otherwise. And that's what the PhD is for, so you can develop a finely tuned habit of critical thinking and discernment and then accuse people of things because they are white.
No, no, no. Whiteness is itself the accusation, and it's certainly the crime. If the OP's mentor hasn't taught her that, he's not worth sleeping with.
Or we could misquote Casablanca's Rick Blaine and say 'he's just like any other man who thinks prurient things and never acts on them, only without the right to think.'
Quote from: mahagonny on January 10, 2020, 04:35:02 PM
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 10, 2020, 12:36:38 PM
Quote from: no1capybara on January 10, 2020, 11:11:04 AM
Quote from: mr_spicoli on December 23, 2019, 07:59:25 PM
I teach at a cc, so I can't claim to be a uni professor. But I am an old, single, male, hetero, white guy. If any of you think this guy has been working ziplock for three years to get in her pants, you are out of your minds. Three years?? If any of you find pants so worth getting into that I'd work it for three years, please send the unicorn to me.
Hahahaha, this was my thought too. Three years?!
I planted an apple tree in my yard and tend to it with the hope of one day eating some apples from this tree, perhaps next year or maybe three years from now. I have not stopped eating other apples while I wait for this to happen. Perhaps this tree will never bloom. I will not be too upset if that is the case, but that is the reason I planted it and it is the reason I tend to it now.
But when the tree bears fruit, it's your fruit and there is no compunction with taking it. Whereas if this professor is thinking about sex with ziplock, he's also made up his mind not to act on it. Which we call being trustworthy.
She can decide to act on it, however. But the relationship is still enjoyable for him if she never does.
That's if it's not a troll thread.
Quote from: Kron3007 on December 23, 2019, 10:12:13 AM
Quote from: spork on December 23, 2019, 08:41:25 AM
The above said, any old straight white guy who is spending that much non-work time with a straight woman in her 30s wants to get into her pants. He might be too scrupulous or too psychologically damaged to try it, but he's thinking about it.
Yeah, I find it hard to believe that's not the case as well (although I don't know why white needs to be in the dedcription...).
Things get dull otherwise. And that's what the PhD is for, so you can develop a finely tuned habit of critical thinking and discernment and then accuse people of things because they are white.
I n my completely fabricated version of the story, this is his hope from the relationship but he realizes that it is in appropriate and would be more so if he initiated things. As such, he will continue along hoping to get some apples, but if not he will still enjoy tending the tree (in my example above, I do enjoy time I the garden even if I don't get to eat the fruit).
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 11, 2020, 03:34:06 AM
I n my completely fabricated version of the story, this is his hope from the relationship but he realizes that it is in appropriate and would be more so if he initiated things. As such, he will continue along hoping to get some apples, but if not he will still enjoy tending the tree (in my example above, I do enjoy time I the garden even if I don't get to eat the fruit).
My impression also. And we are guessing from here, but as guesses go, this one's plausible.
Its probably better just to stick with what we know.
The relationship itself, while possibly not stunningly inappropriate, does introduce a conflict of interest if this man/professor is to be trusted as an evaluator in a mentoring role.
Other than that: "whatever"
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 11, 2020, 03:34:06 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 10, 2020, 12:36:38 PM
I planted an apple tree in my yard and tend to it with the hope of one day eating some apples from this tree, perhaps next year or maybe three years from now. I have not stopped eating other apples while I wait for this to happen. Perhaps this tree will never bloom. I will not be too upset if that is the case, but that is the reason I planted it and it is the reason I tend to it now.
In my completely fabricated version of the story, this is his hope from the relationship but he realizes that it is in appropriate and would be more so if he initiated things. As such, he will continue along hoping to get some apples, but if not he will still enjoy tending the tree (in my example above, I do enjoy time I the garden even if I don't get to eat the fruit).
But if a fruit tree bears no fruit, it's just a tree, and I'd get tired of people asking about the fruit that I get from my non-bearing tree. I'd move on to growing trees specifically for their shade, or nice blossoms, or whatever they produce that they are
expected to produce. The non-bearing fruit tree isn't useless, but if its only value is in its secondary benefits, there are probably other trees that would be a better choice for those secondary benefits exclusively.
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 10, 2020, 12:36:38 PM
I planted an apple tree in my yard and tend to it with the hope of one day eating some apples from this tree, perhaps next year or maybe three years from now. I have not stopped eating other apples while I wait for this to happen. Perhaps this tree will never bloom. I will not be too upset if that is the case, but that is the reason I planted it and it is the reason I tend to it now.
Quote from: mahagonny on January 10, 2020, 04:35:02 PM
But when the tree bears fruit, it's your fruit and there is no compunction with taking it. Whereas if this professor is thinking about sex with ziplock, he's also made up his mind not to act on it. Which we call being trustworthy.
She can decide to act on it, however. But the relationship is still enjoyable for him if she never does.
That's if it's not a troll thread.
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 11, 2020, 03:34:06 AM
I n my completely fabricated version of the story, this is his hope from the relationship but he realizes that it is in appropriate and would be more so if he initiated things. As such, he will continue along hoping to get some apples, but if not he will still enjoy tending the tree (in my example above, I do enjoy time I the garden even if I don't get to eat the fruit).
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 11, 2020, 10:36:58 AM
But if a fruit tree bears no fruit, it's just a tree, and I'd get tired of people asking about the fruit that I get from my non-bearing tree. I'd move on to growing trees specifically for their shade, or nice blossoms, or whatever they produce that they are expected to produce. The non-bearing fruit tree isn't useless, but if its only value is in its secondary benefits, there are probably other trees that would be a better choice for those secondary benefits exclusively.
I went away for a week to visit family and went from troll to capable, but non-producing, apple tree. This sounds like a visit with my mother of 'so when are you giving me grandchildren. You're not getting younger, you know?'
This hypothetical situation has given me a much needed smile. Much thank you!
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 11, 2020, 10:36:58 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 11, 2020, 03:34:06 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 10, 2020, 12:36:38 PM
I planted an apple tree in my yard and tend to it with the hope of one day eating some apples from this tree, perhaps next year or maybe three years from now. I have not stopped eating other apples while I wait for this to happen. Perhaps this tree will never bloom. I will not be too upset if that is the case, but that is the reason I planted it and it is the reason I tend to it now.
In my completely fabricated version of the story, this is his hope from the relationship but he realizes that it is in appropriate and would be more so if he initiated things. As such, he will continue along hoping to get some apples, but if not he will still enjoy tending the tree (in my example above, I do enjoy time I the garden even if I don't get to eat the fruit).
But if a fruit tree bears no fruit, it's just a tree, and I'd get tired of people asking about the fruit that I get from my non-bearing tree. I'd move on to growing trees specifically for their shade, or nice blossoms, or whatever they produce that they are expected to produce. The non-bearing fruit tree isn't useless, but if its only value is in its secondary benefits, there are probably other trees that would be a better choice for those secondary benefits exclusively.
Well, some people tend to many trees. It's called an orchard...
Quote from: ziplock on January 16, 2020, 08:47:29 PM
I went away for a week to visit family and went from troll to capable, but non-producing, apple tree. This sounds like a visit with my mother of 'so when are you giving me grandchildren. You're not getting younger, you know?'
This hypothetical situation has given me a much needed smile. Much thank you!
I think your situation is great fodder for discussion because it
doesn't involve any physical contact so it doesn't cross that line. (And of course, academics are by nature people who like discussing things to death. And with analogies......)
So many thanks to you as well.
OP, just think about why you are worried. Senior faculty singling out grad students for special favors and Platonic dates and such are not really helping their programs in the ways they should. If you have been seen out as a couple, then in your program there's a perception of you being a special person and the rest of the students not so much.
One of the things grad programs try to build is a sense of cohort, shared community, solidarity, and equality of access to benefits. This effort is a constant struggle because academia is competitive.
You may have given your cohort and grad peers the impression that you jumped the benefit queue straight into Professor X's pocket. This is demoralizing to the program. It's to your credit that you are now worried about asking X for a letter, but the two of you have already built a situation that isn't optimal for the community that has supported you.
I think X has been irresponsible, but you also need to develop a better moral compass and more consideration of the community to which you belong. I'm first gen too, and the jobs I held outside academia prior to grad school taught me how not to ever become the boss's pet and cost my co-workers their sense of place.