Hi!
Who has some tips to share about remebering non-obvious and constantly fluctuating personal pronouns in the classroom? How about first names that change a few times during the course of the semester? I have only flubbed the pronoun or name a few times, but it is excruciating and I hope to never do it again. The main problem for me comes when the gendered presentation is at odds with the preferred pronoun. For example, a biological female who presents in a very feminine manner (makeup, shaven legs, fluffy dresses, etc) but prefers "he/his". This is cognitive disonance for me, like it is to read out loud the word "red" printed in green ink. Also with names, I get so used to associating people with the name I first learned, it is a wicked challenge to not slip up and thus offend. Any suggestions will be much appreciated by me and my increasingly fluid students!
Not a tip on remembering per se, but a general tip I've heard from several trans friends:
When you catch yourself in a mistake, just keep it simple, acknowledge and move on. It will be worse all around if you dwell on it, even if to apologize profusely and sincerely. Avoid defensiveness, excuses, or anything that makes it about yourself.
Probably we all know to do this already but I always appreciate the reminder - I trip over my tongue trying to apologize too much.
Just do your best and come into it with an open and accepting attitude and you're unlikely to cause hurt.
Quote from: revert79 on June 17, 2019, 04:26:09 PM
Also with names, I get so used to associating people with the name I first learned, it is a wicked challenge to not slip up and thus offend.
Oh, my! Yes! I work hard in the first week of class to learn names, and then they are set. My challenges are mostly students who say things like, "You can call me either Ben, or Benjamin." I am bad with names, so I need a specific one. I usually say, "Tell me which one you'd prefer, because that will be your name in my head for the rest of the semester." I've never had a student change names in the middle, but it would really throw me.
AR.
I have a non-binary student who changed since I first met them, or perhaps simply found the opportunity to tell me that they use 'they' pronouns after I spent a year calling them something different. I've found that I've managed to train myself to think ahead about pronouns to avoid making mistakes. It helps that the student has been very gracious with me when I goof up. I've since met another 'they'-using post-doc, and it was a lot easier with multiple people who use those pronouns. It will get easier with practice.
An unexpected consequence is that now I find I'm constantly doing a little double-check in my head when I use other people's pronouns, asking myself if I'm sure that 'she' really is the correct pronoun for a female colleague who would never have occasioned a moment's doubt before. On the whole, I think it's good: it doesn't do any harm to remind myself that I need to check my assumptions before I speak.
I tend to use they for all students and faculty.
I still use first names. If there was a better gender neutral term than Mx I might start using last names.
These are good points...I like the reminder to be aware of assumptions and biases. I teach in an art school, and in this environment, gender tends to be an ever-shifting variable, among probably 40% of the students, and changes frequently for each individual. Maybe what I need to do is just talk more slowly so my brain has a chance to catch up with my mouth. This could benefit me in all areas!
Quote from: downer on June 18, 2019, 07:32:06 AM
I tend to use they for all students and faculty.
I still use first names. If there was a better gender neutral term than Mx I might start using last names.
Honestly, I don't really use pronouns much anyway in class. For whatever reason, I'm just not really likely to say "that's a good point that he made." I do use names when I get to the point in the semester when I know them. I've only had one student who transitioned and asked me to make sure I used the preferred name and pronoun. Frankly, in that case it actually helped me to remember the name early on.
I'm really bad with names, so I tend to talk to students rather than about them -- I might say "as you said," turning and nodding to whoever it was, for example. Then I don't have to worry about genders either.
On the other hand, I teach gendered foreign languages where not just the pronouns but the adjectives must agree. I had a student once who preferred "they"-series pronouns in English. When I asked "what gender are you in this language?" the student was hopelessly confused -- had never thought about it! -- and ended up dropping the class (for a variety of reasons but this may have been part of it). It's much easier to respect genders in English!
And am I the only one left who thinks singular "they" is grammatically barbaric? Can't we settle on ze/zir/zis or any of the other neologisms?
Quote from: ProfMeow on July 03, 2019, 09:07:15 AM
And am I the only one left who thinks singular "they" is grammatically barbaric? Can't we settle on ze/zir/zis or any of the other neologisms?
I used to, but I've come around. It's easy and relatively natural to use. I actually prefer some of the neologisms (ve/ver/vis/verself!), but their use just isn't consistent and widespread enough, and too many people complain about them/have no idea what's going on.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 03, 2019, 09:17:02 AM
Quote from: ProfMeow on July 03, 2019, 09:07:15 AM
And am I the only one left who thinks singular "they" is grammatically barbaric? Can't we settle on ze/zir/zis or any of the other neologisms?
I used to, but I've come around. It's easy and relatively natural to use. I actually prefer some of the neologisms (ve/ver/vis/verself!), but their use just isn't consistent and widespread enough, and too many people complain about them/have no idea what's going on.
I can manage with he/she/they. If people want other pronouns, then I need a laminated card that I can carry with someone's name and a picture next to their preferences because I'm bad at names and I'm bad at details.
Do not start with the "hu" again....I know there will be conflict, and I'm conflict-averse...
;--}
M.
Quote from: mamselle on July 03, 2019, 05:48:28 PM
Do not start with the "hu" again....I know there will be conflict, and I'm conflict-averse...
;--}
M.
Maybe that's what we need to summon LarryC to join us: hu, Hu, HU!
Quote from: revert79 on June 17, 2019, 04:26:09 PM
The main problem for me comes when the gendered presentation is at odds with the preferred pronoun. For example, a biological female who presents in a very feminine manner (makeup, shaven legs, fluffy dresses, etc) but prefers "he/his". This is cognitive disonance for me, like it is to read out loud the word "red" printed in green ink.
Totally naive question - how common is this sort of occurrence? I am in Europe and in my teaching experience (+10 years) it has never happened to me.
Quote from: youllneverwalkalone on July 04, 2019, 02:33:51 AM
Quote from: revert79 on June 17, 2019, 04:26:09 PM
The main problem for me comes when the gendered presentation is at odds with the preferred pronoun. For example, a biological female who presents in a very feminine manner (makeup, shaven legs, fluffy dresses, etc) but prefers "he/his". This is cognitive disonance for me, like it is to read out loud the word "red" printed in green ink.
Totally naive question - how common is this sort of occurrence? I am in Europe and in my teaching experience (+10 years) it has never happened to me.
This is really place dependent. I would expect to encounter that situation much more frequently at University of Wisconsin Madison or University of California Berkeley than at, say, Colorado School of Mines or Texas Tech due to the different social norms. The UW-M community is known for being much more open to a huge range of individual identity expressions in ways that other places are not. Thus, people who want that kind of environment are much more likely to enroll in that kind of environment.
I am a mother, but I also spend most of my time now as a jeans-clad, no make-up engineer in an environment that is at most about 10% women. I don't blink at all at being called sir or referred to as he nor do most of my colleagues who similarly are mothers (or could be) who also wear the daily uniform of jeans after coming up through an engineering program. I'm not going to insist on any pronoun because that's more trouble than it's worth to my daily life. I do, however, correct every single person who calls me Ms. instead of Dr. Dr. means I belong to the technical staff; Ms. means someone is identifying me as a secretary or other non-technical person.
Quote from: youllneverwalkalone on July 04, 2019, 02:33:51 AM
Quote from: revert79 on June 17, 2019, 04:26:09 PM
The main problem for me comes when the gendered presentation is at odds with the preferred pronoun. For example, a biological female who presents in a very feminine manner (makeup, shaven legs, fluffy dresses, etc) but prefers "he/his". This is cognitive disonance for me, like it is to read out loud the word "red" printed in green ink.
Totally naive question - how common is this sort of occurrence? I am in Europe and in my teaching experience (+10 years) it has never happened to me.
It's never happened to me, either, nor to anyone I know personally. I'm not going to participate in pronoun foolishness in any case, and (for now at least) I'm in a situation where my superiors would back me up.
Why is there such opposition to the singular they? 650 years old (https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/) isn't exactly new.
Quote from: FishProf on July 06, 2019, 09:22:00 AM
Why is there such opposition to the singular they? 650 years old (https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/) isn't exactly new.
This whole situation has been handled backwards. If some government stated that it was going to use and accept "they" as a gender-non-specific third personal pronoun in its communications, then it would spread quickly. There are all kinds of situations, such as job descriptions, where the gender is indeterminate, by definition, so all of those could use "they" instead of "she/he" or any other awkward construction.
If it were presented and implemented as a
practical initiative, rather than an
ideological one, it would be much easier to sell. (And then the whole "multiple genders/multiple pronouns" business would be moot.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 06, 2019, 10:13:41 AM
Quote from: FishProf on July 06, 2019, 09:22:00 AM
Why is there such opposition to the singular they? 650 years old (https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/) isn't exactly new.
This whole situation has been handled backwards. If some government stated that it was going to use and accept "they" as a gender-non-specific third personal pronoun in its communications, then it would spread quickly. There are all kinds of situations, such as job descriptions, where the gender is indeterminate, by definition, so all of those could use "they" instead of "she/he" or any other awkward construction.
If it were presented and implemented as a practical initiative, rather than an ideological one, it would be much easier to sell. (And then the whole "multiple genders/multiple pronouns" business would be moot.)
They speaks the truth.
Quote from: writingprof on July 06, 2019, 07:43:07 AM
I'm not going to participate in pronoun foolishness in any case, and (for now at least) I'm in a situation where my superiors would back me up.
What exactly do you mean by this? It isn't really about ideology. It is just about courtesy. If someone wants to be addressed by a particular pronoun or particular name, it would be rude to refuse...
Quote from: FishProf on July 06, 2019, 09:22:00 AM
Why is there such opposition to the singular they? 650 years old (https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/) isn't exactly new.
From the article - last sentence:
Even people who object to singular they as a grammatical error use it themselves when they're not looking, a sure sign that anyone who objects to singular they is, if not a fool or an idiot, at least hopelessly out of date.I am on board with that statement.
Quote from: Caracal on July 09, 2019, 08:18:18 AM
Quote from: writingprof on July 06, 2019, 07:43:07 AM
I'm not going to participate in pronoun foolishness in any case, and (for now at least) I'm in a situation where my superiors would back me up.
What exactly do you mean by this? It isn't really about ideology. It is just about courtesy. If someone wants to be addressed by a particular pronoun or particular name, it would be rude to refuse...
Caracal, we may just have to disagree about this. But if you really wish to discuss it, you might consider first whether a biological male's desire to be referred to with a female pronoun is really bereft of ideology. How can it be? Such a person isn't saying, "Though I am in reality a man, please do me the courtesy of referring to me as a woman." Rather, he is saying, "I
am a woman and mean to be thought of as such." Leaving aside whether such a claim is true, it is certainly ideological, and it certainly has political consequences. I'm not sure what we gain by pretending otherwise.
Quote from: Caracal on July 09, 2019, 08:18:18 AM
Quote from: writingprof on July 06, 2019, 07:43:07 AM
I'm not going to participate in pronoun foolishness in any case, and (for now at least) I'm in a situation where my superiors would back me up.
What exactly do you mean by this? It isn't really about ideology. It is just about courtesy. If someone wants to be addressed by a particular pronoun or particular name, it would be rude to refuse...
Including the individual who preferred "Yourmajesty"? What about if someone wanted "Womenarestupid" or any other statement that would be unacceptable in polite company otherwise? Is anything a person wishes you to say "rude to refuse"?
(And incidentally, since the only problematic pronoun is first-person singular, it's always going to be directed
to someone
other than the person in question, and often when that person is
not even present. It's hard to imagine much harm is done in that case.)
I thought the first person singular in English was I.
Quote from: miss jane marple on July 09, 2019, 10:49:21 AM
I thought the first person singular in English was I.
Touché
Quote from: Caracal on July 09, 2019, 08:18:18 AM
Quote from: writingprof on July 06, 2019, 07:43:07 AM
I'm not going to participate in pronoun foolishness in any case, and (for now at least) I'm in a situation where my superiors would back me up.
What exactly do you mean by this? It isn't really about ideology. It is just about courtesy. If someone wants to be addressed by a particular pronoun or particular name, it would be rude to refuse...
Well, sticking to facts, things are changing. A request that would have been thought pretentious a few years ago is becoming a normal, respected request.
The non-specific they is ~650 years old, but the specific they is quite recent. That is, it has long been traditional to say, "If anyone comes, tell them to leave their name." But the usage that is new is: "If Jordan comes, tell them to leave their name." That is, them/them/their to refer to a specific named person — that's a new usage.
Quote from: Hegemony on July 09, 2019, 01:23:09 PM
The non-specific they is ~650 years old, but the specific they is quite recent. That is, it has long been traditional to say, "If anyone comes, tell them to leave their name." But the usage that is new is: "If Jordan comes, tell them to leave their name." That is, them/them/their to refer to a specific named person — that's a new usage.
Jordan Peterson is that you? :D
Quote from: youllneverwalkalone on July 10, 2019, 02:27:21 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on July 09, 2019, 01:23:09 PM
The non-specific they is ~650 years old, but the specific they is quite recent. That is, it has long been traditional to say, "If anyone comes, tell them to leave their name." But the usage that is new is: "If Jordan comes, tell them to leave their name." That is, them/them/their to refer to a specific named person — that's a new usage.
Jordan Peterson is that you? :D
What? A progressive is responding to a fact by connecting it to a right-wing hate figure? Yeah, this issue isn't ideological at all.
Quote from: writingprof on July 10, 2019, 05:55:05 AM
Quote from: youllneverwalkalone on July 10, 2019, 02:27:21 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on July 09, 2019, 01:23:09 PM
The non-specific they is ~650 years old, but the specific they is quite recent. That is, it has long been traditional to say, "If anyone comes, tell them to leave their name." But the usage that is new is: "If Jordan comes, tell them to leave their name." That is, them/them/their to refer to a specific named person — that's a new usage.
Jordan Peterson is that you? :D
What? A progressive is responding to a fact by connecting it to a right-wing hate figure? Yeah, this issue isn't ideological at all.
I just made a joke because Hegemony used the first name "Jordan" to make his point, with Jordan Peterson being a notable figure linked to precisely to this issue. That's all it was, a joke. If you wanna read more into it suits yourself, I don't really care.
Quote from: writingprof on July 09, 2019, 09:48:33 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 09, 2019, 08:18:18 AM
Quote from: writingprof on July 06, 2019, 07:43:07 AM
I'm not going to participate in pronoun foolishness in any case, and (for now at least) I'm in a situation where my superiors would back me up.
What exactly do you mean by this? It isn't really about ideology. It is just about courtesy. If someone wants to be addressed by a particular pronoun or particular name, it would be rude to refuse...
Caracal, we may just have to disagree about this. But if you really wish to discuss it, you might consider first whether a biological male's desire to be referred to with a female pronoun is really bereft of ideology. How can it be? Such a person isn't saying, "Though I am in reality a man, please do me the courtesy of referring to me as a woman." Rather, he is saying, "I am a woman and mean to be thought of as such." Leaving aside whether such a claim is true, it is certainly ideological, and it certainly has political consequences. I'm not sure what we gain by pretending otherwise.
Sure, but you're the one injecting the ideology here into what is a pretty straightforward request in some fairly inappropriate ways. When you say biological do you mean...genitalia? You don't actually know anything (hopefully) about that for your students and it certainly would be pretty rude to interrogate or make assumptions about a student's sexual organs, no? Chromosomes are also none of your business and actually for both of these things there are things beyond the binary you presuppose. It would be equally odd to be policing your student's gender presentation. Would you want to tell your class, "If you would like to be addressed as she you must conform to my ideas of femininity?"
I don't think you need to use they if you don't want to, because you can just work around it in class. You are even welcome to avoid using a particular pronoun if you want, as long as you aren't doing it in some way that is drawing attention to a student. Again, I really don't find in a classroom context that I use a lot of pronouns in general to refer to students.
But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 09, 2019, 09:53:24 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 09, 2019, 08:18:18 AM
Quote from: writingprof on July 06, 2019, 07:43:07 AM
I'm not going to participate in pronoun foolishness in any case, and (for now at least) I'm in a situation where my superiors would back me up.
What exactly do you mean by this? It isn't really about ideology. It is just about courtesy. If someone wants to be addressed by a particular pronoun or particular name, it would be rude to refuse...
Including the individual who preferred "Yourmajesty"? What about if someone wanted "Womenarestupid" or any other statement that would be unacceptable in polite company otherwise? Is anything a person wishes you to say "rude to refuse"?
People actually do get to pick their preferred names now and I haven't noticed it leading to classroom chaos. I sometimes have students asking to be known by names that strike me as silly, but that isn't my business is it? People change their names or go by names that are not their legal names all the time. I have yet to encounter anyone with a name I actually found offensive to say though...so this seems like it won't be any more of a problem with pronouns.
Back in the last century, we debated a lot about whether to use "he" for all persons, or whether we should use "he or she", "s/he" "she" or "they." The grammar conservatives insisted that there was only one correct usage, and all uses apart from "he" were incorrect. But that was not convincing. It was also plausible that using male pronouns to refer to all people reflected underlying ideological biases. So ideology is reflected in grammar. The suggested changes are not inserting ideology where there was none before: they are just changing the ideology.
The introduction of non-binary pronouns is certainly ideological. There are other considerations apart from ideology: elegance and simplicity are big ones. Politeness is another. Refusing to use non-binary pronouns is also ideological.
How much ideological freedom should members of a higher ed institution have in the classroom? There are different ways of expressing ideas, some more likely to cause offense than others. Lots of loaded words are contentious and their use is likely to lead to trouble. People who use those words are probably looking for trouble. There are ways to express views without causing offense.
Quote from: Caracal on July 10, 2019, 12:44:37 PM
But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.
It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the
institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being
explicitly professional.
Quote from: Caracal on July 10, 2019, 12:44:37 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 09, 2019, 09:48:33 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 09, 2019, 08:18:18 AM
What exactly do you mean by this? It isn't really about ideology.
It is certainly ideological, and it certainly has political consequences.
Sure, but . . . .
Thank you for the useful illustration of moving the goalpost.
I once broke up with someone who reported with some pride(?) about how he essentially refused to respect a student's request to be referred to as she/her. Like, seriously? It was some kind of affront to his authority as the professor to be asked to do such a thing. <eyeroll>
Ok, there was also that problem of his decision to dress up as Shirtless Putin for a costume party which he thought was f'ing hilarious. I mean maybe it was, but after seeing pictures, there was just no way we were going to be doing any of *that* again.
Question for lawyers:
If a student consistently went by a name (and gender) other than what was specified in their registration documentation, and then committed plagiarism or some other academic dishonesty, could the student then make the claim that the student registered had not committed the infraction and therefore could not be disciplined? (Thus allowing the student to revert to the "registered" name with no penalty?)
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 10, 2019, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 10, 2019, 12:44:37 PM
But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.
It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being explicitly professional.
But we do this all the time. If you call the roll on the first day for Benjamin and the student says, oh I go by Ben, or Sean (probably a middle name) or Trey, or anything else do you refuse to use it?
Quote from: writingprof on July 10, 2019, 02:35:08 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 10, 2019, 12:44:37 PM
Quote from: writingprof on July 09, 2019, 09:48:33 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 09, 2019, 08:18:18 AM
What exactly do you mean by this? It isn't really about ideology.
It is certainly ideological, and it certainly has political consequences.
Sure, but . . . .
Thank you for the useful illustration of moving the goalpost.
Hmm, I think thats called not addressing the argument. I still don't quite understand why you think it would be appropriate to dictate to students the gender you'll be referring to them by in class.
Quote from: Caracal on July 10, 2019, 06:16:47 PM
I still don't quite understand why you think it would be appropriate to dictate to students the gender you'll be referring to them by in class.
A hypothetical argument goes along the lines that the identity a person chooses for themselves is much less relevant than the identity that the group assigns the individual for efficient workings of the group. "You are not a person" holds true in the sense that a generic you does not get to choose how others see and treat you. In many situations, the legal name must be used, regardless of one's preferences, to make the system work. Insisting on being unique instead of following the social norms makes one a significant inconvenience to other people, which often results in people choosing their own convenience and efficiency of the group workings over the expressed wishes of the one individual.
A pretty good lay perspective on both the realities of being an individual in a society being assigned a role and why American society still needs to work on being much better about stepping away from assigned roles is David Wong's "5 Helpful Answers to Society's Most Uncomfortable Questions".
Quote
You are, therefore, not a person any more than a leaf is a tree. It makes far more sense to think of yourself as one part of a whole (the "whole" being every human who has ever lived) than as an individual -- you benefit from the whole's successes, and you pay for its mistakes as if they were your own -- whether you want to or not.
This is not abstract philosophy, this is not something you can choose to believe or not believe -- this is a statement of physical fact. Refusing to acknowledge it will only leave you endlessly confused and frustrated. For instance, when you show up at a job interview, or a trial, or the set of a porno, that whole context will walk in the door with you. Everyone in that room will be making certain assumptions about you and will hold certain expectations, based on the greater whole of which you are a part.
<snip>
The big flaw in humanity is that we always cling to short-term comfort over long-term prosperity (because we see ourselves as individuals, instead of part of a whole), and certain classes of people were benefiting from doing things the old way, even if humanity as a whole was not.
<snip>
And I completely get why a low-income, lonely white dude is sick to death of hearing about how his movies, video games, and jokes are racist or sexist or homophobic. The logic is almost impossible to argue with: "If their problems as women are on the level of getting Hollywood to cast a plus-size Wonder Woman, and my problems involve not being able to afford heat in the winter, then it's downright evil to belittle my real problems while demanding I worry about that trivial SJW Tumblr bullshit."
site: https://www.cracked.com/blog/5-helpful-answers-to-societys-most-uncomfortable-questions/
While a gender identity is important to the individual, whether it's a he or she who just pointed out that we need to use Maxwell's equations to solve this problem is irrelevant to the functioning of the class. A good contribution to the discussion connecting this week's reading and last week's reading by individual X is the same whether individual X is wearing a frilly skirt with a full beard or cargo pants with a fabulous tiara. Thus, for the convenience of discussions in class, even learning people's names can be irrelevant if everyone sits in assigned seating so today's contribution boxes can be marked appropriately and the legal names go on every submitted written assignment.
Quote from: tuxedo_cat on July 10, 2019, 03:42:42 PM
I once broke up with someone who reported with some pride(?) about how he essentially refused to respect a student's request to be referred to as she/her. Like, seriously? It was some kind of affront to his authority as the professor to be asked to do such a thing. <eyeroll>
Ok, there was also that problem of his decision to dress up as Shirtless Putin for a costume party which he thought was f'ing hilarious. I mean maybe it was, but after seeing pictures, there was just no way we were going to be doing any of *that* again.
I thought we agreed to keep this between us. Also, I looked damn good in that costume.
Quote from: Caracal on July 10, 2019, 06:14:46 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 10, 2019, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 10, 2019, 12:44:37 PM
But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.
It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being explicitly professional.
But we do this all the time. If you call the roll on the first day for Benjamin and the student says, oh I go by Ben, or Sean (probably a middle name) or Trey, or anything else do you refuse to use it?
I actually do it, but that a
courtesy; it would not be
unprofessional to address people by their legal names under which they are registered. Suggesting that people ought to be morally (or even worse, legally)
compelled to use
whatever a person chooses is ridiculous.
Quote from: writingprof on July 11, 2019, 05:33:16 AM
Quote from: tuxedo_cat on July 10, 2019, 03:42:42 PM
I once broke up with someone who reported with some pride(?) about how he essentially refused to respect a student's request to be referred to as she/her. Like, seriously? It was some kind of affront to his authority as the professor to be asked to do such a thing. <eyeroll>
Ok, there was also that problem of his decision to dress up as Shirtless Putin for a costume party which he thought was f'ing hilarious. I mean maybe it was, but after seeing pictures, there was just no way we were going to be doing any of *that* again.
I thought we agreed to keep this between us. Also, I looked damn good in that costume.
Hahaha! Omg! Laughing-crying emoji! Sdrasvoitchiya writingprof!
Anyway, I just thought of something else...which kind of has to do with the role of the individual within the group and acknowledging the dominant ideology of a particular setting. At the art school where I am an adjunct, there is what seems to me a very high rate of alternatively-gendered identities in the classroom. If I have a class of 20 students, I could expect at least 5 to have a non-binary or non-obvious pronoun request and can also expect first names to change with the tides. Which, my goal is to make this seamless and natural for everyone, while not being afraid to show that it takes social and intellectual work for the group. Since it is not currently the dominant reality of our culture, I think it's okay for everyone to recognize that we're all learning together in the classroom regarding gender freedom and inclusivity; the people with an obvious or binary pronoun have to do the work of accommodating the non-binary identities, which might make us more empathic and creative people as we attempt this experimental social form.
Is the art school a hothouse environment that will evaporate and leave my non-binary flowers out in the cold when they graduate with their BFAs? Maybe, or maybe they will find an approach to daily life that best accomodates their worldview and self-concept. Maybe they will have the courage to lead weird lives that don't recognize the shitty commodified approach to life that is the dominant economic and social force in this world. I don't know why but I feel optimistic that if the students' instructors reinforce a culture of inclusivity and flexibility, especially if that means some hard work on the part of the teacher and the group, then this inclusivity will chance of thriving in the larger social world. If the fact that we have to work kind of hard to make this happen is apparent, I think that is actually a good thing...it lets the non-binary individual know that they are supported at a certain expense, and that they can't take the behavior of others for granted once they leave the (artificial, extra-supportive) walls of the institution.
Thinking about this, I remembered that our admissions office has a big glass container full of pins that people can wear, stating their pronoun. It has all kinds of available choices, including "zhe/zhey" etc. So students can choose to decide if they want to publicly self-identify with a non-standard pronoun or not. But also the glass container has the effect of presenting the ideological identity of the school at the moment when students decide to enter or not for their degree. In the admissions office, it declares "this is a place where your non-binary, unexpected gender identity will be recoginzed, welcome, and even celebrated. If you can't handle the thought of your fellow students assuming alternate gender identities, maybe look elsewhere for your degree. There is a really square state school up the road hint hint". I have seen very few students actually wearing one of these pins, so I am guessing that the power of the pins is more in this public-service-announcement role.
Okay that's all for now, salaam friends
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 11, 2019, 05:57:28 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 10, 2019, 06:14:46 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 10, 2019, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 10, 2019, 12:44:37 PM
But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.
It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being explicitly professional.
But we do this all the time. If you call the roll on the first day for Benjamin and the student says, oh I go by Ben, or Sean (probably a middle name) or Trey, or anything else do you refuse to use it?
I actually do it, but that a courtesy; it would not be unprofessional to address people by their legal names under which they are registered. Suggesting that people ought to be morally (or even worse, legally) compelled to use whatever a person chooses is ridiculous.
Dear Marshwiggle,
Sorry but I find your argument kind of silly. College is not some 1-to-1 simulacrum of real life, it is its own special and specific environment, with its own social rules and concepts. Like, imagine if I was like "Okay Marshwiggle, happy to interact with you on this forum, but I demand to use your real name. If I can't call you Professor Joe Schmo from Northeast Kingdom University, @jschmo@neku.edu, I'm not going to interact...I refuse the name Marshwiggle because it's not your legal name." Does that make sense in the context of this forum? No way! You wouldn't feel safe! Why should the classroom be different? College students are learning who they are in a safe place...why should we demand the priviledge to reinforce the dominant cultural form that exists beyond those safe walls?
Quote from: revert79 on July 11, 2019, 06:14:42 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 11, 2019, 05:57:28 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 10, 2019, 06:14:46 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 10, 2019, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 10, 2019, 12:44:37 PM
But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.
It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being explicitly professional.
But we do this all the time. If you call the roll on the first day for Benjamin and the student says, oh I go by Ben, or Sean (probably a middle name) or Trey, or anything else do you refuse to use it?
I actually do it, but that a courtesy; it would not be unprofessional to address people by their legal names under which they are registered. Suggesting that people ought to be morally (or even worse, legally) compelled to use whatever a person chooses is ridiculous.
Dear Marshwiggle,
Sorry but I find your argument kind of silly. College is not some 1-to-1 simulacrum of real life, it is its own special and specific environment, with its own social rules and concepts. Like, imagine if I was like "Okay Marshwiggle, happy to interact with you on this forum, but I demand to use your real name. If I can't call you Professor Joe Schmo from Northeast Kingdom University, jschmo@neku.edu, I'm not going to interact...I refuse the name Marshwiggle because it's not your legal name." Does that make sense in the context of this forum? No way! You wouldn't feel safe! Why should the classroom be different? College students are learning who they are in a safe place...why should we demand the priviledge to reinforce the dominant cultural form that exists beyond those safe walls?
Sorry, that last post was a mistake, but look at the cool boxes-within-boxes pattern it makes! Meditative, relaxing.
Ma'Salaama friends :)
Would it make sense just to transition, society-wide, to a system where we use proper names instead of personal pronouns?
Once we have >1 set of pronouns, any attempt to assign an individual to one or the other set is going to be implicitly placing this person into a collectively-defined social category. I'm sympathetic to the notion that having someone else place you in a big box with a label involves a kind of violence to the unique contours of your personal experience and to your own right to self-definition. But unless we're moving to a system where there are now just 3 (or 4, or 5) fixed, collectively-defined genders, then it seems like adding another 1, 2 or 3 sets of pronouns will eventually just reproduce the original problems with the binary system. I may know that I'm not a "he" or a "she", but why should I have to publicly profess that therefore I am a "xhe", when my experience of gender may not at all match the other "xhe"s in this class? Why shouldn't I equally resent getting labelled with my professor's stereotypical notions of "xhe"s, based on other "xhes" they know?
Seems easier just to go with the grammatical form we already have for expressing unique identity: "Alice, would you pass Bob's paper to Bob? Bob, do you have suggestions for Alice to improve Alice's draft?" Doesn't solve the issue of navigating mid-semester name changes, but it eliminates the red-in-green-font problem.
Quote from: revert79 on July 11, 2019, 06:14:42 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 11, 2019, 05:57:28 AM
I actually do it, but that a courtesy; it would not be unprofessional to address people by their legal names under which they are registered. Suggesting that people ought to be morally (or even worse, legally) compelled to use whatever a person chooses is ridiculous.
Dear Marshwiggle,
Sorry but I find your argument kind of silly. College is not some 1-to-1 simulacrum of real life, it is its own special and specific environment, with its own social rules and concepts. Like, imagine if I was like "Okay Marshwiggle, happy to interact with you on this forum, but I demand to use your real name. If I can't call you Professor Joe Schmo from Northeast Kingdom University, @jschmo@neku.edu, I'm not going to interact...I refuse the name Marshwiggle because it's not your legal name." Does that make sense in the context of this forum? No way! You wouldn't feel safe! Why should the classroom be different? College students are learning who they are in a safe place...why should we demand the priviledge to reinforce the dominant cultural form that exists beyond those safe walls?
That analogy doesn't work; the fora here are
created to be pseudonymous; anyone who
voluntarily joins knows that people are not required to use their real names. Most people also know that if they enter some sort of legal contract with an individual or organization that the way they identify themselves is not entirely arbitrary, and cannot be changed on a whim.
There are several "requirements" that institutions regularly impose on students as a part of due diligence to ensure that a degree reflects real accomplishment on the part of the student, such as:
- student ID cards with photo
- presentation of ID card at exams
- use of student ID number on assignments and/or exams
If these requirements make students feel "unsafe", would it make sense to allow a student to write an exam without producing an ID card, without recording an ID number, and using a name different from the one on the course registration? Should this be allowed for all students?
As human beings go through life, they are constantly adjusting how they present themselves to others in order to influence how they are perceived. However, a healthy psyche requires that a person
integrate the past with the present, instead of trying to hide the past or pretend it doesn't exist. If a person changes their legal name before registering for university, then their new name is all that they need to acknowledge. Four years is hardly a long time for a person to acknowledge the same identity.
Quote from: polly_mer on July 11, 2019, 03:58:14 AM
While a gender identity is important to the individual, whether it's a he or she who just pointed out that we need to use Maxwell's equations to solve this problem is irrelevant to the functioning of the class. A good contribution to the discussion connecting this week's reading and last week's reading by individual X is the same whether individual X is wearing a frilly skirt with a full beard or cargo pants with a fabulous tiara. Thus, for the convenience of discussions in class, even learning people's names can be irrelevant if everyone sits in assigned seating so today's contribution boxes can be marked appropriately and the legal names go on every submitted written assignment.
I can think of students who've used middle names, nicknames based on how many family members had the name before them, (once even a Quinn!) names totally unrelated to their birth name they chose (I assume) because they preferred something english speakers wouldn't mangle, broey appellations (Doke) and even meteorological phenomena. None of this has ever caused me anything more than momentary confusion. I'm not the social security office. As long as you turn something in with the same name every time and make sure I can identify it based on the roll, there's no problem.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 11, 2019, 05:57:28 AM
I actually do it, but that a courtesy; it would not be unprofessional to address people by their legal names under which they are registered. Suggesting that people ought to be morally (or even worse, legally) compelled to use whatever a person chooses is ridiculous.
There's this imaginary scenario here where a student marches into your office and demands you use a particular pronoun and call them Greatlover." The one experience I've had with this in the classroom was a student who wrote me before the start of the semester to politely ask that I call her by a different name than the one that might be in the system and refer to her as she if I used pronouns. The student said they'd be happy to talk to me if there were any issues.
There was no attempt to impose ideology, she wasn't trying to get me to take some position about gender and identity. It was just a basic, polite request that I was perfectly happy to fulfill. It actually ensured that I did remember the student's name.
It is also worth remembering that this isn't all just about preferred identity. Rates of violence against trans people is really high and drawing attention to someone by using a pronoun that might not fit with their presentation could expose them to attacks.
Quote from: Caracal on July 11, 2019, 07:03:33 AM
I can think of students who've used middle names, nicknames based on how many family members had the name before them, (once even a Quinn!) names totally unrelated to their birth name they chose (I assume) because they preferred something english speakers wouldn't mangle, broey appellations (Doke) and even meteorological phenomena. None of thi s has ever caused me anything more than momentary confusion. I'm not the social security office. As long as you turn something in with the same name every time and make sure I can identify it based on the roll, there's no problem.
It's policy at my institution to respect students' preferences about these things. So, first day of classes, I pass around a roster and ask students to put by their roster name the name by which they want me to call them. That way, Clarence W. Smith can tell me he'd prefer to be called "Bill," and so forth.
Also, I've been asked by a student who was on my roster as "Denise" (not the real name) to take attendance and refer to them in class as "Dan" because they were in the process of changing gender, but couldn't get parental permission for a legal name change. I of course agreed, because I try to be supportive rather than judgmental of my students.
That said, if police came to my room asking for "Denise," I would be legally obligated to say, "Sure," and ask Dan to step outside. I don't know that there's a good way to handle that. Luckily, it has never arisen (and the few times police do show and ask for a student, that student has usually not been there. I mean, my students aren't dumb).
Quote from: Caracal on July 11, 2019, 07:14:44 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 11, 2019, 05:57:28 AM
I actually do it, but that a courtesy; it would not be unprofessional to address people by their legal names under which they are registered. Suggesting that people ought to be morally (or even worse, legally) compelled to use whatever a person chooses is ridiculous.
There's this imaginary scenario here where a student marches into your office and demands you use a particular pronoun and call them Greatlover."
As long as you're not
required to do so, then that scenario isn't a problem.
Quote
The one experience I've had with this in the classroom was a student who wrote me before the start of the semester to politely ask that I call her by a different name than the one that might be in the system and refer to her as she if I used pronouns. The student said they'd be happy to talk to me if there were any issues.
There was no attempt to impose ideology, she wasn't trying to get me to take some position about gender and identity. It was just a basic, polite request that I was perfectly happy to fulfill. It actually ensured that I did remember the student's name.
It is also worth remembering that this isn't all just about preferred identity. Rates of violence against trans people is really high and drawing attention to someone by using a pronoun that might not fit with their presentation could expose them to attacks.
Of the two (possibly) trans students I've been aware of, one had been in several of my labs as "Bob", and was registered as "Bob", but signed everything as "Alice" in my course. Many of the students in the course would have
been in many of the previous (and small) courses with "Bob". "Alice" had no obvious changes in physical appearance from "Bob".
Given all of that, the former identity of "Bob" is a ridiculously poorly kept secret, so it's hard to see how pronoun use is going to affect that.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 11, 2019, 10:04:13 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 11, 2019, 07:14:44 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 11, 2019, 05:57:28 AM
I actually do it, but that a courtesy; it would not be unprofessional to address people by their legal names under which they are registered. Suggesting that people ought to be morally (or even worse, legally) compelled to use whatever a person chooses is ridiculous.
There's this imaginary scenario here where a student marches into your office and demands you use a particular pronoun and call them Greatlover."
As long as you're not required to do so, then that scenario isn't a problem.
Quote
The one experience I've had with this in the classroom was a student who wrote me before the start of the semester to politely ask that I call her by a different name than the one that might be in the system and refer to her as she if I used pronouns. The student said they'd be happy to talk to me if there were any issues.
There was no attempt to impose ideology, she wasn't trying to get me to take some position about gender and identity. It was just a basic, polite request that I was perfectly happy to fulfill. It actually ensured that I did remember the student's name.
It is also worth remembering that this isn't all just about preferred identity. Rates of violence against trans people is really high and drawing attention to someone by using a pronoun that might not fit with their presentation could expose them to attacks.
Of the two (possibly) trans students I've been aware of, one had been in several of my labs as "Bob", and was registered as "Bob", but signed everything as "Alice" in my course. Many of the students in the course would have been in many of the previous (and small) courses with "Bob". "Alice" had no obvious changes in physical appearance from "Bob".
Given all of that, the former identity of "Bob" is a ridiculously poorly kept secret, so it's hard to see how pronoun use is going to affect that.
Right, but this is actually a good example of why you don't need to get into these things. You can just say, oh, no problem, I'll call you Alice. Or you can enter into a series of speculations about the student and their gender and appearance. You don't know the factors that might play into the decision and a request for you to use a particular name isn't forcing you to examine them.
Quote from: Caracal on July 11, 2019, 10:19:38 AM
You can just say, oh, no problem, I'll call you Alice. Or you can enter into a series of speculations about the student and their gender and appearance. You don't know the factors that might play into the decision and a request for you to use a particular name isn't forcing you to examine them.
So how is this different than the Rachel Dolezal case where she "identified" as black? Many of the same people who would require the use of peoples' self-chosen pronouns seem to deny her ability to self-identify her race, despite the fact that "race" has much less basis in science than "sex", and thus is a much more ambiguous term to begin with.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 11, 2019, 10:57:54 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 11, 2019, 10:19:38 AM
You can just say, oh, no problem, I'll call you Alice. Or you can enter into a series of speculations about the student and their gender and appearance. You don't know the factors that might play into the decision and a request for you to use a particular name isn't forcing you to examine them.
So how is this different than the Rachel Dolezal case where she "identified" as black? Many of the same people who would require the use of peoples' self-chosen pronouns seem to deny her ability to self-identify her race, despite the fact that "race" has much less basis in science than "sex", and thus is a much more ambiguous term to begin with.
You don't have to endorse a person's identification in calling them whatever name they want to be called. You may have theoretical reasons for believing that the person must be mistaken about their own self-identification. You might even think they are delusional. Students are mistaken about all sorts of things, but it's only our job to point out the mistakes relevant to the course material.
Quote from: downer on July 11, 2019, 11:26:45 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 11, 2019, 10:57:54 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 11, 2019, 10:19:38 AM
You can just say, oh, no problem, I'll call you Alice. Or you can enter into a series of speculations about the student and their gender and appearance. You don't know the factors that might play into the decision and a request for you to use a particular name isn't forcing you to examine them.
So how is this different than the Rachel Dolezal case where she "identified" as black? Many of the same people who would require the use of peoples' self-chosen pronouns seem to deny her ability to self-identify her race, despite the fact that "race" has much less basis in science than "sex", and thus is a much more ambiguous term to begin with.
You don't have to endorse a person's identification in calling them whatever name they want to be called. You may have theoretical reasons for believing that the person must be mistaken about their own self-identification. You might even think they are delusional. Students are mistaken about all sorts of things, but it's only our job to point out the mistakes relevant to the course material.
I'm totally with Downer here. Who cares, seriously? Don't we want to support these students within the range of what we can do as instructors and mentors? Rachel D was profiteering from her tricky self-presentation, not quietly and respectfully asking to be called "they" or "Bob". Also, in terms of racial identification differences across cultures, check out the example of Brazil. Historically, one's understanding of one's own race is a much more fluid construct than it is in the United States, where I live. This is true across a spectrum of "biological" race origins. Just a totally different cultural attitude. Our students are the future; they can usher in a totally different and more flexible culture if we don't antagonize them with legal trivialities and ID number paranoia! You are allowed to have skeptical and ungenerous thoughts; of course! But you have the social responsibility, as well as the intellectual respect contract between student and teacher, to take people at their word when they want to be called "they", "Bob", or "Alice".
Allahu Akbar, let the trans, non-binary, and gender-fluid humans of America lead the way to a cooler and more open-minded future! Your contribution of training yourself to call them by the pronouns and names that jive with their understanding of self is a much-appreciated contribution to future freedoms in the cultural, political, artistic, and intellectual life we can all hope to experience and benefit from! After all, aren't you yourself weird and unique in some ways? And doesn't that make you a more excellent human being?
Sorry to make this so ideological--my main objective with the first post was to generate some good tips for actually remembering the pronouns and names in the first place. Which, we did get some awesome tips!
Quote from: revert79 on July 11, 2019, 11:39:20 AM
Allahu Akbar, let the trans, non-binary, and gender-fluid humans of America lead the way to a cooler and more open-minded future! Your contribution of training yourself to call them by the pronouns and names that jive with their understanding of self is a much-appreciated contribution to future freedoms in the cultural, political, artistic, and intellectual life we can all hope to experience and benefit from! After all, aren't you yourself weird and unique in some ways? And doesn't that make you a more excellent human being?
This illustrates the heart of the problem. The problem with the emphasis on "gender identity" is that is implies that somehow a "correct" identification of a person's gender avoids any misconceptions of who they are as a person. If "gender" includes basically everything about a person, then there are currently about 7 billion genders in the world. The point of having any sort of pronoun is to have some sort of broad categorization; the number of categories is only useful
if most people understand what they mean. So, the more categories, the less useful they are since the terms will be unfamiliar.
Biological sex has relevance for medicine. It does not indicate whether a person like sports, or shopping for clothes, or an infinite number of things, even though there are some probabilities for those related to sex. For a long time it has been understood to not even guarantee sexual preference. Replacing "sex" by "gender" and then creating multiple genders is a step backwards because it assumes that more airtight categorizations can be used which will not be misunderstood.
This is nonsense. The only way any individual can be clearly understood is through the long process of
getting to know that person. There are no shortcuts, and creating extra pronouns won't help, while it may give the
illusion of doing so.
Quote from: downer on July 11, 2019, 11:26:45 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 11, 2019, 10:57:54 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 11, 2019, 10:19:38 AM
You can just say, oh, no problem, I'll call you Alice. Or you can enter into a series of speculations about the student and their gender and appearance. You don't know the factors that might play into the decision and a request for you to use a particular name isn't forcing you to examine them.
So how is this different than the Rachel Dolezal case where she "identified" as black? Many of the same people who would require the use of peoples' self-chosen pronouns seem to deny her ability to self-identify her race, despite the fact that "race" has much less basis in science than "sex", and thus is a much more ambiguous term to begin with.
You don't have to endorse a person's identification in calling them whatever name they want to be called. You may have theoretical reasons for believing that the person must be mistaken about their own self-identification. You might even think they are delusional. Students are mistaken about all sorts of things, but it's only our job to point out the mistakes relevant to the course material.
Yes. You're making this far more complicated than it needs to be. I can argue with you about the larger questions and I do think you're wrong in a whole bunch of ways, but that isn't really the point. It isn't hard to call someone by the name they prefer and it shows a lack of respect to not do so. As you said, its a courtesy. I really do think the pronoun thing is sort of a non issue in a classroom setting. It always feels a bit odd to me to say "he or she or they" when the person is standing there looking at me. It feels impersonal.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 11, 2019, 12:19:46 PM
Quote from: revert79 on July 11, 2019, 11:39:20 AM
Allahu Akbar, let the trans, non-binary, and gender-fluid humans of America lead the way to a cooler and more open-minded future! Your contribution of training yourself to call them by the pronouns and names that jive with their understanding of self is a much-appreciated contribution to future freedoms in the cultural, political, artistic, and intellectual life we can all hope to experience and benefit from! After all, aren't you yourself weird and unique in some ways? And doesn't that make you a more excellent human being?
This illustrates the heart of the problem. The problem with the emphasis on "gender identity" is that is implies that somehow a "correct" identification of a person's gender avoids any misconceptions of who they are as a person. If "gender" includes basically everything about a person, then there are currently about 7 billion genders in the world. The point of having any sort of pronoun is to have some sort of broad categorization; the number of categories is only useful if most people understand what they mean. So, the more categories, the less useful they are since the terms will be unfamiliar.
Biological sex has relevance for medicine. It does not indicate whether a person like sports, or shopping for clothes, or an infinite number of things, even though there are some probabilities for those related to sex. For a long time it has been understood to not even guarantee sexual preference. Replacing "sex" by "gender" and then creating multiple genders is a step backwards because it assumes that more airtight categorizations can be used which will not be misunderstood. This is nonsense. The only way any individual can be clearly understood is through the long process of getting to know that person. There are no shortcuts, and creating extra pronouns won't help, while it may give the illusion of doing so.
Well, if calling someone she/he/they when you would rather call that person he/they/she is enough to break your crayons then, pal, you have bigger problems than any of us can solve.
There are all sorts of reasons to be dubious about the identities that students present in class. Racial, ethnic and gender identities are big social questions for sure. Personally, I don't want 1000 flowers to bloom. I don't want to celebrate their individuality most of the time. A lot of the time I don't even like their stupid names. But I don't go on about it. I just get on with the job, and call them something approximating to what they want to be called. Is there any good alternative to doing that? I don't think so.
Quote from: downer on July 11, 2019, 01:18:11 PM
There are all sorts of reasons to be dubious about the identities that students present in class. Racial, ethnic and gender identities are big social questions for sure. Personally, I don't want 1000 flowers to bloom. I don't want to celebrate their individuality most of the time. A lot of the time I don't even like their stupid names. But I don't go on about it. I just get on with the job, and call them something approximating to what they want to be called. Is there any good alternative to doing that? I don't think so.
There are two:
One was mentioned earlier in this thread:
Quote from: JFlanders on July 11, 2019, 06:54:43 AM
Would it make sense just to transition, society-wide, to a system where we use proper names instead of personal pronouns?
...
Seems easier just to go with the grammatical form we already have for expressing unique identity: "Alice, would you pass Bob's paper to Bob? Bob, do you have suggestions for Alice to improve Alice's draft?" Doesn't solve the issue of navigating mid-semester name changes, but it eliminates the red-in-green-font problem.
The other is to define a single non-gender-specific third person singular pronoun (such as "they") which will be used for
everyone.Both of those are non-discriminatory and don't contribute to exploding snowflakiness.
Good. Now I'm clearer about the options.
Has anyone stuck to using last names and used "Mx Smith" in class, rather than Mr or Ms? (Pronounced "mix" apparently.)
Quote from: downer on July 11, 2019, 03:31:07 PM
Good. Now I'm clearer about the options.
Has anyone stuck to using last names and used "Mx Smith" in class, rather than Mr or Ms? (Pronounced "mix" apparently.)
I never have. Of course, I am terrible with names and faces, to the point where I can't reliably get more than five or six of the 90+ students in the semester down by the end of the semester. I mean, I try to keep track, but it just doesn't stick. This is, however, off the subject. Also, I find the comments about race and ethnicity puzzling, since surely pronouns are not signifiers of race or ethnicity.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 11, 2019, 12:19:46 PM
This illustrates the heart of the problem. The problem with the emphasis on "gender identity" is that is implies that somehow a "correct" identification of a person's gender avoids any misconceptions of who they are as a person. If "gender" includes basically everything about a person, then there are currently about 7 billion genders in the world. The point of having any sort of pronoun is to have some sort of broad categorization; the number of categories is only useful if most people understand what they mean. So, the more categories, the less useful they are since the terms will be unfamiliar.
Biological sex has relevance for medicine. It does not indicate whether a person like sports, or shopping for clothes, or an infinite number of things, even though there are some probabilities for those related to sex. For a long time it has been understood to not even guarantee sexual preference. Replacing "sex" by "gender" and then creating multiple genders is a step backwards because it assumes that more airtight categorizations can be used which will not be misunderstood. This is nonsense. The only way any individual can be clearly understood is through the long process of getting to know that person. There are no shortcuts, and creating extra pronouns won't help, while it may give the illusion of doing so.
See, this doesn't address the question; we are not trying to "clearly understand" the person, we are simply attempting to choose a pronoun to which they will not feel a strong objection. We aren't choosing pronouns that will indicate if they like shopping for clothes, or enjoy watching football; just one of a small set of options.
Quote from: Conjugate on July 11, 2019, 07:01:16 PM
See, this doesn't address the question; we are not trying to "clearly understand" the person, we are simply attempting to choose a pronoun to which they will not feel a strong objection. We aren't choosing pronouns that will indicate if they like shopping for clothes, or enjoy watching football; just one of a small set of options.
In most of the discussion I've heard, it's not
one of a "small set" of options; it's "
whatever the person wishes", which is an entirely different thing.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 12, 2019, 04:16:43 AM
Quote from: Conjugate on July 11, 2019, 07:01:16 PM
See, this doesn't address the question; we are not trying to "clearly understand" the person, we are simply attempting to choose a pronoun to which they will not feel a strong objection. We aren't choosing pronouns that will indicate if they like shopping for clothes, or enjoy watching football; just one of a small set of options.
In most of the discussion I've heard, it's not one of a "small set" of options; it's "whatever the person wishes", which is an entirely different thing.
Isn't that the situation in most interpersonal interaction? You ask their name, and they can get you calling them just about whatever they like. And these days, they can tell you their pronouns too. There is some possibility of chaos. But in fact things work out fine. Even in place like Northampton MA or Berkeley CA.
Quote from: downer on July 12, 2019, 05:18:42 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 12, 2019, 04:16:43 AM
Quote from: Conjugate on July 11, 2019, 07:01:16 PM
See, this doesn't address the question; we are not trying to "clearly understand" the person, we are simply attempting to choose a pronoun to which they will not feel a strong objection. We aren't choosing pronouns that will indicate if they like shopping for clothes, or enjoy watching football; just one of a small set of options.
In most of the discussion I've heard, it's not one of a "small set" of options; it's "whatever the person wishes", which is an entirely different thing.
Isn't that the situation in most interpersonal interaction? You ask their name, and they can get you calling them just about whatever they like. And these days, they can tell you their pronouns too. There is some possibility of chaos. But in fact things work out fine. Even in place like Northampton MA or Berkeley CA.
It only works out as long as only a very small number of people do it. Imagine in a class of 200 (or even 20 for that matter) where
everyone wants their own specific pronoun. It becomes impossible to remember them all, and it's easier to just omit pronouns entirely.
There have been many discussions of these sort of "tragedy of the commons" accommodation requests on the old fora, and the consensus is often that fairness requires avoiding any special treatment that cannot be given to all. There is no guarantee that someone who requests special treatment has any more (or even as much) reason as someone who accepts the rules as given but doesn't ask
because they are mature enough to accept the rules, whether they like them or not .
Quote from: Conjugate on July 11, 2019, 07:01:16 PM
Quote from: downer on July 11, 2019, 03:31:07 PM
Good. Now I'm clearer about the options.
Has anyone stuck to using last names and used "Mx Smith" in class, rather than Mr or Ms? (Pronounced "mix" apparently.)
I never have. Of course, I am terrible with names and faces, to the point where I can't reliably get more than five or six of the 90+ students in the semester down by the end of the semester. I mean, I try to keep track, but it just doesn't stick.
I don't even get my own kid's name right and I only have the one who doesn't change every few months. I have had to resort to saying, "you know, whatshisname who lives here and is over there" for my husband of more than 25 years.
Quote from: Conjugate on July 11, 2019, 07:01:16 PM
Also, I find the comments about race and ethnicity puzzling, since surely pronouns are not signifiers of race or ethnicity.
They are connected in my mind as categories for which an individual can state their preference, but really aren't under the individual's control to enforce how other people categorize based on observable features. For example, I had an interesting encounter recently with a student who asked how he could support the underrepresented people in our field. This student was very earnest in his desire to help a specific group member feel comfortable in the field. I managed to not state what I was thinking along the lines of "you are a traditional age, recent BS graduate who checks more boxes in any combination of underrepresented/at risk/non-standard observed behavioral norms than that individual. What makes you think you are in a position to help and that the individual needs your help?"
Pronouns, race, and ethnicity also are connected in my mind as basically irrelevant to the classroom settings where I taught. revert79's description of what a classroom should be as a way to explore identity bears almost no resemblance to how I experienced college as either a student or professor. Yes, we're all learners together, but the relevant identity is aspiring scientist/engineer or informed citizen who is capable in math and science. All the other fine identities one might have are not really up for exploration in today's lesson of how to solve for the final position of the ball or balance the chemical equation.
I grew up in a large extended family and almost never was called either my legal name or a nickname I chose. Thus, I'm pretty unsympathetic to the idea that one gets to dictate terms for things that don't matter in the context at hand to others who have almost no long-term investment in the individual. Yes, it's nice to be an individual in small groups, but realistically, in larger groups the best one can hope is to have the grades recorded to the appropriate record.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 11, 2019, 10:04:13 AM
Of the two (possibly) trans students I've been aware of, one had been in several of my labs as "Bob", and was registered as "Bob", but signed everything as "Alice" in my course. Many of the students in the course would have been in many of the previous (and small) courses with "Bob". "Alice" had no obvious changes in physical appearance from "Bob".
Given all of that, the former identity of "Bob" is a ridiculously poorly kept secret, so it's hard to see how pronoun use is going to affect that.
Transition is a long process. Alice wasn't trying to keep the "secret" (!) that she used to be Bob, Alice was at an early stage in social transition.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 12, 2019, 05:33:56 AM
Quote from: downer on July 12, 2019, 05:18:42 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 12, 2019, 04:16:43 AM
Quote from: Conjugate on July 11, 2019, 07:01:16 PM
See, this doesn't address the question; we are not trying to "clearly understand" the person, we are simply attempting to choose a pronoun to which they will not feel a strong objection. We aren't choosing pronouns that will indicate if they like shopping for clothes, or enjoy watching football; just one of a small set of options.
In most of the discussion I've heard, it's not one of a "small set" of options; it's "whatever the person wishes", which is an entirely different thing.
Isn't that the situation in most interpersonal interaction? You ask their name, and they can get you calling them just about whatever they like. And these days, they can tell you their pronouns too. There is some possibility of chaos. But in fact things work out fine. Even in place like Northampton MA or Berkeley CA.
It only works out as long as only a very small number of people do it. Imagine in a class of 200 (or even 20 for that matter) where everyone wants their own specific pronoun. It becomes impossible to remember them all, and it's easier to just omit pronouns entirely.
There have been many discussions of these sort of "tragedy of the commons" accommodation requests on the old fora, and the consensus is often that fairness requires avoiding any special treatment that cannot be given to all. There is no guarantee that someone who requests special treatment has any more (or even as much) reason as someone who accepts the rules as given but doesn't ask because they are mature enough to accept the rules, whether they like them or not .
More hypotheticals. I can imagine all sorts of disasters. My point remains though. I haven't heard of one case where there's actually been a
practical problem to the extent that an instructor has offended a student and there have been complaints. The only complaints from students I have heard about are where instructors have been douche bags about it for ideological reasons.
Quote from: downer on July 12, 2019, 06:52:49 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 12, 2019, 05:33:56 AM
Quote from: downer on July 12, 2019, 05:18:42 AM
Isn't that the situation in most interpersonal interaction? You ask their name, and they can get you calling them just about whatever they like. And these days, they can tell you their pronouns too. There is some possibility of chaos. But in fact things work out fine. Even in place like Northampton MA or Berkeley CA.
It only works out as long as only a very small number of people do it. Imagine in a class of 200 (or even 20 for that matter) where everyone wants their own specific pronoun. It becomes impossible to remember them all, and it's easier to just omit pronouns entirely.
There have been many discussions of these sort of "tragedy of the commons" accommodation requests on the old fora, and the consensus is often that fairness requires avoiding any special treatment that cannot be given to all. There is no guarantee that someone who requests special treatment has any more (or even as much) reason as someone who accepts the rules as given but doesn't ask because they are mature enough to accept the rules, whether they like them or not .
More hypotheticals. I can imagine all sorts of disasters. My point remains though. I haven't heard of one case where there's actually been a practical problem to the extent that an instructor has offended a student and there have been complaints. The only complaints from students I have heard about are where instructors have been douche bags about it for ideological reasons.
Since when did taking an idea to its logical conclusion become frowned upon in an
academic discussion? Institutions of higher learning were traditionally the places where envisioning the future was normal; it was traditionally governments and businesses that were focused on the practical conditions of the moment.
Any activity which is totally unregulated will eventually proliferate. (Think of any industry that has undergone "deregulation" and what ensued.) Making consistent, universal rules
that can scale is the way to prevent chaos in the longer term.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 12, 2019, 07:15:31 AM
Quote from: downer on July 12, 2019, 06:52:49 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 12, 2019, 05:33:56 AM
Quote from: downer on July 12, 2019, 05:18:42 AM
Isn't that the situation in most interpersonal interaction? You ask their name, and they can get you calling them just about whatever they like. And these days, they can tell you their pronouns too. There is some possibility of chaos. But in fact things work out fine. Even in place like Northampton MA or Berkeley CA.
It only works out as long as only a very small number of people do it. Imagine in a class of 200 (or even 20 for that matter) where everyone wants their own specific pronoun. It becomes impossible to remember them all, and it's easier to just omit pronouns entirely.
There have been many discussions of these sort of "tragedy of the commons" accommodation requests on the old fora, and the consensus is often that fairness requires avoiding any special treatment that cannot be given to all. There is no guarantee that someone who requests special treatment has any more (or even as much) reason as someone who accepts the rules as given but doesn't ask because they are mature enough to accept the rules, whether they like them or not .
More hypotheticals. I can imagine all sorts of disasters. My point remains though. I haven't heard of one case where there's actually been a practical problem to the extent that an instructor has offended a student and there have been complaints. The only complaints from students I have heard about are where instructors have been douche bags about it for ideological reasons.
Since when did taking an idea to its logical conclusion become frowned upon in an academic discussion? Institutions of higher learning were traditionally the places where envisioning the future was normal; it was traditionally governments and businesses that were focused on the practical conditions of the moment.
Any activity which is totally unregulated will eventually proliferate. (Think of any industry that has undergone "deregulation" and what ensued.) Making consistent, universal rules that can scale is the way to prevent chaos in the longer term.
Meh. It's like most older men having prostate cancer: that's not what is going to kill most of them. Something else will get them. There are many other sources of real problems that already cause difficulty for instructors, and they are much more likely to escalate and cause chaos. Issues about pronouns are at worst a minor irritation.
As for universal rules about how to treat students, sure that's a nice idea, but apart from cultivating an attitude of mutual respect in the classroom, I've not seen good candidates for a universal rule of interaction with students. Teaching is a matter of pragmatics.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 12, 2019, 07:15:31 AM
Since when did taking an idea to its logical conclusion become frowned upon in an academic discussion? Institutions of higher learning were traditionally the places where envisioning the future was normal; it was traditionally governments and businesses that were focused on the practical conditions of the moment.
Any activity which is totally unregulated will eventually proliferate. (Think of any industry that has undergone "deregulation" and what ensued.) Making consistent, universal rules that can scale is the way to prevent chaos in the longer term.
Good lord, there's a logical fallacy for exactly what you're doing.
At any rate, this isn't really new, its just an extension of a previous convention-which is that we get to be known by the name we prefer. It would be more convenient if we didn't have this convention. Poly doesn't seem to like it much, but most of us, I think, would prefer our classes feel less, not more, like the social security office. Basically the societal consensus is that we put up with a small amount of trouble because we think the ability to choose how other's address you is important.
This doesn't lead to chaos because people really don't generally want to have their names be offensive or objects of ridicule. Even names that might seem a bit silly generally aren't totally absurd. I've yet to encounter a student who wanted me to call them "Big dog."
So ok, it might take some minor adjustments to do this with pronouns too, but it isn't that hard and won't generally be that difficult because all of the same incentives apply. You seem to believe this is all about some desire to stand out. Generally, I don't think that's true. The vast majority of people requesting something different in terms of their pronouns just want something that jibes better with their identity and is as simple as possible for everyone else. This is exactly why "their" is becoming standard for people who don't want the other two options. People don't want their own special pronoun, they would just like one that works ok and will cause a minimum amount of fuss and bother.
Quote from: polly_mer on July 12, 2019, 06:12:53 AM
Quote from: Conjugate on July 11, 2019, 07:01:16 PM
Quote from: downer on July 11, 2019, 03:31:07 PM
Good. Now I'm clearer about the options.
Has anyone stuck to using last names and used "Mx Smith" in class, rather than Mr or Ms? (Pronounced "mix" apparently.)
I never have. Of course, I am terrible with names and faces, to the point where I can't reliably get more than five or six of the 90+ students in the semester down by the end of the semester. I mean, I try to keep track, but it just doesn't stick.
I don't even get my own kid's name right and I only have the one who doesn't change every few months. I have had to resort to saying, "you know, whatshisname who lives here and is over there" for my husband of more than 25 years.
Quote from: Conjugate on July 11, 2019, 07:01:16 PM
Also, I find the comments about race and ethnicity puzzling, since surely pronouns are not signifiers of race or ethnicity.
They are connected in my mind as categories for which an individual can state their preference, but really aren't under the individual's control to enforce how other people categorize based on observable features. For example, I had an interesting encounter recently with a student who asked how he could support the underrepresented people in our field. This student was very earnest in his desire to help a specific group member feel comfortable in the field. I managed to not state what I was thinking along the lines of "you are a traditional age, recent BS graduate who checks more boxes in any combination of underrepresented/at risk/non-standard observed behavioral norms than that individual. What makes you think you are in a position to help and that the individual needs your help?"
Pronouns, race, and ethnicity also are connected in my mind as basically irrelevant to the classroom settings where I taught. revert79's description of what a classroom should be as a way to explore identity bears almost no resemblance to how I experienced college as either a student or professor. Yes, we're all learners together, but the relevant identity is aspiring scientist/engineer or informed citizen who is capable in math and science. All the other fine identities one might have are not really up for exploration in today's lesson of how to solve for the final position of the ball or balance the chemical equation
I grew up in a large extended family and almost never was called either my legal name or a nickname I chose. Thus, I'm pretty unsympathetic to the idea that one gets to dictate terms for things that don't matter in the context at hand to others who have almost no long-term investment in the individual. Yes, it's nice to be an individual in small groups, but realistically, in larger groups the best one can hope is to have the grades recorded to the appropriate record.
I think some of this must have to do with context. My students are art students at a selective private art school in the Northeast, so it stands to reason that their experience of education will differ from the experience of students in schools and academic fields which operate quite differently. Interesctionalism and the role of identity make up a substantial part of the critical discourse in which an art student is expected to be conversant; i think that finding parallels in their personal lives is a natural outgrowth of that expectation.
Have I found this environment frustrating in many ways? Yes, of course. The phrase "navel-gazing" pops into my mind quite easily. But I feel like I owe it to my students to treat them with the respect they are asking for, even if I have difficulty on the levels of memory and common sense (I try to leave issues of taste, preference, and bias out of classroom interactions). After all, I am also asking for their respect for me and for each other—I want to be taken seriously just like they do, and a quick way to lose the trust of your students is to show that you don't trust them either.
Unlike Marshwiggle, who has only had two trans/genderqueer students, I have probably had at least 50 or 60 and probably more. In the context of art school, it's not a responsible option to break the contract of mutual respect by shutting down conversations related to identity and personal narrative—after all, these are important thematic elements in the discourse surrounding visual art. I think it's fair to say it is probably totally different in other academic settings. To be a successful artist is to find a bridge between form and content in one's studio practice, and autobiography and identity are really understandable starting places for young artists. For young engineers or beginning nuclear physicists, these questions won't necessarily be relevant to their excellence in the field. "Identity" will have a different role. But even still, people are always people...and we all want to be treated well, and to feel comfortable being who we are.
Quote from: polly_mer on July 12, 2019, 06:12:53 AM
They are connected in my mind as categories for which an individual can state their preference, but really aren't under the individual's control to enforce how other people categorize based on observable features. For example, I had an interesting encounter recently with a student who asked how he could support the underrepresented people in our field. This student was very earnest in his desire to help a specific group member feel comfortable in the field. I managed to not state what I was thinking along the lines of "you are a traditional age, recent BS graduate who checks more boxes in any combination of underrepresented/at risk/non-standard observed behavioral norms than that individual. What makes you think you are in a position to help and that the individual needs your help?"
Okay. I R confused.
Are you saying that because this person had more "boxes to check" he was, by definition, unable to be of support to someone who had
fewer of these "boxes to check?"
Like it's a score or something? And whomever has more/fewer "points" can't be aware of someone else's sensitivities?
Granted, I haven't read all the replies in this thread.
An easy fix is tent cards at the beginning of the semester. I ask students to put the name they would like to be referred to and their preferred pronouns. I then collect them at the end of each class session. I hand them out, testing my memory, at the five minutes before the start of each subsequent class session.
This serves multiple purposes: students are able to identify themselves any way they want. If they want to change their names/pronouns mid terms, they update their cards--and usually they say that they are going to. It helps me remember their names and pronouns, and if they change, I get fair warning without soliciting it.
I have been able to learn the names of 100+ students per term with this approach. It creates an environment of mutual respect and collegiality.
Thanks for the suggestion! Can I ask what kind of cards you use to create tent cards?
Quote from: revert79 on June 17, 2019, 04:26:09 PM
[. . . ]
For example, a biological female who presents in a very feminine manner (makeup, shaven legs, fluffy dresses, etc) but prefers "he/his".
[. . . ]
and my increasingly fluid students!
I think much of this is simply the fad du jour. Today it's pronouns. Fifty years ago the college set thought it fashionable to flout norms about hair length.
In the classroom I use first names, whatever is on the official roster. If a student says on the first day of class that she prefers Katie to Katherine, ok, got it, I make a note on my list.
Note that I used "she" in that last sentence. If someone who appears female is named Bob or Steve, whatever, I don't care, I regularly get male and female Danas, Jordans, and Leslies. If someone says "I'm Steve now" when last week the name was Sara, then I would (this situation hasn't happened to me as of yet) tell the student "I'll try to remember, but your name is Sara on the roster and it's been Sara for two months now, so don't be surprised if I flub it."
Gender identity is really low on my list of priorities in terms of what I teach and how I teach. Ethnicity, nationality, that sort of thing connects much more directly to my subject material, so I focus on that. For example, since I often get students from different countries with wildly different cultures, I mention at the beginning that I often engage in American habits like pointing at people.
Also, look how many comments this IHE article got:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/07/19/divide-over-scholarly-debate-over-gender-identity-rages (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/07/19/divide-over-scholarly-debate-over-gender-identity-rages).
I wonder how many of those who commented work at institutions with enrollment problems or who teach courses on nothing but gender identity issues.
For the record,most of us have no problem making adjustments to cisgender people's names. If your cisgender student Jane Doe got married mid-semester and legally assumed her partner's surname of Rodriguez, I would hope that you would take the time to learn that she's now "Jane Rodriguez." If your cisgender doctoral student Jason Smith successfully defended his dissertation mid-semester, and you happen to be very formal in your lab, I hope you would start calling him "Dr. Smith" instead of "Mr. Smith." I don't see why it should be any different for trans or genderqueer students. I acknowledge that it can be confusing to remember pronouns like the singular "they/them," but really, what do you have to lose by trying to show respect to students?
Even if you do have philosophical objections to pronoun usage, how much does it really come up for you? Even though I make an effort to learn student pronouns, I find that I rarely have to use such knowledge in lecture-oriented classes. I'm much more likely to say "Does anyone want to respond to Jane's comment?" than I am "Does anyone want to respond to her comment?"
Quote from: spork on July 20, 2019, 06:52:44 PM
...
Gender identity is really low on my list of priorities in terms of what I teach and how I teach. Ethnicity, nationality, that sort of thing connects much more directly to my subject material, so I focus on that. For example, since I often get students from different countries with wildly different cultures, I mention at the beginning that I often engage in American habits like pointing at people.
Also, look how many comments this IHE article got:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/07/19/divide-over-scholarly-debate-over-gender-identity-rages (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/07/19/divide-over-scholarly-debate-over-gender-identity-rages).
I wonder how many of those who commented work at institutions with enrollment problems or who teach courses on nothing but gender identity issues.
The more general issue of trans identity and trans rights seem to be increasingly dominating discussion in many areas, so it's becoming an issue that is almost impossible to not take a position on. Fortunately, few of us ever split up the classroom into male and female sections, so we never have to decide which students belong in which sections. But it will be an increasing issue in college sports, deciding which students are to count as being able to compete in women's teams and individual events. Definitely these issues are more prominent at some schools, and can be largely ignored at others, as was the case not long ago with sexual harassment issues. But these days just about every school has to make at least some cursory gesture at making sure faculty and staff are sensitized to concerns about sexual harassment, and some places make a huge deal about it. There's a fair chance that the same will happen for interacting with gender fluid/trans students.
Quote from: downer on July 21, 2019, 02:52:08 AM
Quote from: spork on July 20, 2019, 06:52:44 PM
...
Gender identity is really low on my list of priorities in terms of what I teach and how I teach. Ethnicity, nationality, that sort of thing connects much more directly to my subject material, so I focus on that. For example, since I often get students from different countries with wildly different cultures, I mention at the beginning that I often engage in American habits like pointing at people.
Also, look how many comments this IHE article got:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/07/19/divide-over-scholarly-debate-over-gender-identity-rages (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/07/19/divide-over-scholarly-debate-over-gender-identity-rages).
I wonder how many of those who commented work at institutions with enrollment problems or who teach courses on nothing but gender identity issues.
The more general issue of trans identity and trans rights seem to be increasingly dominating discussion in many areas, so it's becoming an issue that is almost impossible to not take a position on. Fortunately, few of us ever split up the classroom into male and female sections, so we never have to decide which students belong in which sections. But it will be an increasing issue in college sports, deciding which students are to count as being able to compete in women's teams and individual events. Definitely these issues are more prominent at some schools, and can be largely ignored at others, as was the case not long ago with sexual harassment issues. But these days just about every school has to make at least some cursory gesture at making sure faculty and staff are sensitized to concerns about sexual harassment, and some places make a huge deal about it. There's a fair chance that the same will happen for interacting with gender fluid/trans students.
I wonder how many gender fluid/trans students you guys are in contact with. I have had none in over 10 years of teaching experience in higher had. Your experience must be incredibly different from mine if this thread got so many replies.
If I ever had one such student, I think that I would have no problem addressing them however they want to as a matter of common courtesy. Empathy alone would suffice, I don't really care for some made-up language rules.
Quote from: youllneverwalkalone on July 21, 2019, 03:18:06 AM
Quote from: downer on July 21, 2019, 02:52:08 AM
[. . . ]
There's a fair chance that the same will happen for interacting with gender fluid/trans students.
I wonder how many gender fluid/trans students you guys are in contact with. I have had none in over 10 years of teaching experience in higher had. Your experience must be incredibly different from mine if this thread got so many replies.
If I ever had one such student, I think that I would have no problem addressing them however they want to as a matter of common courtesy. Empathy alone would suffice, I don't really care for some made-up language rules.
Ding! I think we have a winner. I don't really care about my students' sex lives, chromosomal patterns, or gender. If a student has some kind of academic problem that relates to these aspects of life, then I can listen and take appropriate action. But in the end we're all going to be replaced by gender-less robots (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4Gh_IcK8UM) anyway.
How many students have you been wanting to sexually harass in the last 10 years? None?
There is a good chance you still have had to go through some kind of training to avoid doing it.
Quote from: xerprofrn on July 20, 2019, 01:26:57 PM
Granted, I haven't read all the replies in this thread.
An easy fix is tent cards at the beginning of the semester. I ask students to put the name they would like to be referred to and their preferred pronouns. I then collect them at the end of each class session. I hand them out, testing my memory, at the five minutes before the start of each subsequent class session.
This serves multiple purposes: students are able to identify themselves any way they want. If they want to change their names/pronouns mid terms, they update their cards--and usually they say that they are going to. It helps me remember their names and pronouns, and if they change, I get fair warning without soliciting it.
I have been able to learn the names of 100+ students per term with this approach. It creates an environment of mutual respect and collegiality.
Thanks for this simple and helpful suggestion! I feel like it would be really helpful for memorizing names and pronouns in a way that would allow eventual flexibility when they change...I could use the cards like I would use flash cards to learn a language. I have found that acknowledging the fact that I sometimes forget names has made it less embarrassing when I also forget a non-standard pronoun.
As an instructor in an art school, some of the other posters' experience is foreign to me. I can't imagine having fewer than 10 trans students per semester, and it's usually more. But I totally agree with those who say that common courtesy and manners, in the form of using the requested form of address, apply across the entire spectrum of human interaction. It doesn't need to be ideological. But it can still test one's memory in a potentially challenging way, no matter what your private opinion is.
Quote from: downer on July 21, 2019, 04:55:23 AM
How many students have you been wanting to sexually harass in the last 10 years? None?
There is a good chance you still have had to go through some kind of training to avoid doing it.
Are personal pronouns-related issues as frequent as those related to sexual harassment? I'd be very surprised if they were even remotely in the same order of magnitude.
Quote from: downer on July 21, 2019, 04:55:23 AM
How many students have you been wanting to sexually harass in the last 10 years? None?
There is a good chance you still have had to go through some kind of training to avoid doing it.
The problem is that some people clearly do want to sexually harass students. You're right that this isn't hard. You see this all the time with people wanting to pretend that there's some complicated code to avoid being a creep. Actually if you just try to be a good person and think of other people as humans, you'll be fine.
Same basic idea here. Call people by the names they prefer because it is good manners. Nobody is asking you to endorse some political view, or idea about gender and if you bring these things up in response a really basic and reasonable request than you're the jerk.
Quote from: youllneverwalkalone on July 21, 2019, 05:58:57 AM
Quote from: downer on July 21, 2019, 04:55:23 AM
How many students have you been wanting to sexually harass in the last 10 years? None?
There is a good chance you still have had to go through some kind of training to avoid doing it.
Are personal pronouns-related issues as frequent as those related to sexual harassment? I'd be very surprised if they were even remotely in the same order of magnitude.
I have had a few gender non-conforming students in my classes. I've never had any harassment. So in my experience the frequency of pronouns issues is much greater.
Also, the number of gender non-conforming students is sky-rocketing according to some press reports. Maybe it is a fad. Hard to say. Some people thought that women doing men's jobs in the 1950s was a fad. Gender and sexuality issues just seem to keep on keeping on.
Quote from: ciao_yall on July 12, 2019, 10:50:25 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on July 12, 2019, 06:12:53 AM
They are connected in my mind as categories for which an individual can state their preference, but really aren't under the individual's control to enforce how other people categorize based on observable features. For example, I had an interesting encounter recently with a student who asked how he could support the underrepresented people in our field. This student was very earnest in his desire to help a specific group member feel comfortable in the field. I managed to not state what I was thinking along the lines of "you are a traditional age, recent BS graduate who checks more boxes in any combination of underrepresented/at risk/non-standard observed behavioral norms than that individual. What makes you think you are in a position to help and that the individual needs your help?"
Okay. I R confused.
Are you saying that because this person had more "boxes to check" he was, by definition, unable to be of support to someone who had fewer of these "boxes to check?"
Like it's a score or something? And whomever has more/fewer "points" can't be aware of someone else's sensitivities?
No, I'm saying it was disconcerting to me how eagerly this person was riding to the rescue of someone who didn't need rescuing. I know both of these people. One comes from a privileged background including excellent schooling with mentors who have been heavily invested every step of the way, is recognized as a leader in many activities, and speaks English as a native. One has had a more heartwarming journey as someone from a small foreign country where English is not a primary language and their family continues to live in the traditional way; that family is applying pressure to go home now to marry and raise children with the spouse their family has chosen for them. This person still struggles with many cultural differences.
Sure, we can and should be supportive of each other. However, put your own oxygen mask on first applies in cases outside of the airplane. Being a woman is not such a huge disadvantage that it outweighs all other considerations. That's really, really offensive to me.
Quote from: downer on July 21, 2019, 06:27:05 AM
Quote from: youllneverwalkalone on July 21, 2019, 05:58:57 AM
Quote from: downer on July 21, 2019, 04:55:23 AM
How many students have you been wanting to sexually harass in the last 10 years? None?
There is a good chance you still have had to go through some kind of training to avoid doing it.
Are personal pronouns-related issues as frequent as those related to sexual harassment? I'd be very surprised if they were even remotely in the same order of magnitude.
I have had a few gender non-conforming students in my classes. I've never had any harassment. So in my experience the frequency of pronouns issues is much greater.
Also, the number of gender non-conforming students is sky-rocketing according to some press reports. Maybe it is a fad. Hard to say. Some people thought that women doing men's jobs in the 1950s was a fad. Gender and sexuality issues just seem to keep on keeping on.
Press reports often cover extreme outliers, and personal experience isn't necessarily a good starting point either (e.g., you would not know if some of the students are being harassed unless you are the perpetrator or if the news had somehow reached you). Having "gender non-conforming students" in class doesn't imply there are going to be any problem. What is relevant in this context, at least to my understanding, are cases where teachers refuse to refer a student with their preferred pronouns.
I was a bit curious so I started googling around. According to this (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/221153.pdf (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/221153.pdf)), almost 14% of undergraduate women had been victims of at least one completed sexual assault since entering college. I can't believe the % of student population who has problems related to gender-pronouns is anywhere near that figure (not to mention these two things are not in the same ballpark when it comes to seriousness either).
Right, but the assaulting is mostly done by other students. Most of it is related to being drunk or high. (There are also debates over definitions of assault, and the statistics are very sensitive to those definitions. But anyway... ) The relevant comparison for us is how much do faculty need training/education/sensitization about these issues. I maintain that faculty are more likely to have to puzzle over how to react to gender non-conforming students than they are about how to proceed without sexually harassing a student.
As for seriousness, it seems that universities can get sued if faculty don't respect student pronouns, and employers can get fined in some places. There are reports of professors being punished.
Quote from: downer on July 21, 2019, 08:29:15 AM
The relevant comparison for us is how much do faculty need training/education/sensitization about these issues. I maintain that faculty are more likely to have to puzzle over how to react to gender non-conforming students than they are about how to proceed without sexually harassing a student.
This is backwards; if one simply chooses to "react" to a gender-nonconforming student by only referring to the student by the student's name when speaking to a third party, then that is completely safe. There is no equally clear prescription to avoid any possible claim of sexual harassment, since it could be made on the basis of speech, gesture, gaze, or almost anything else.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 21, 2019, 11:40:21 AM
Quote from: downer on July 21, 2019, 08:29:15 AM
The relevant comparison for us is how much do faculty need training/education/sensitization about these issues. I maintain that faculty are more likely to have to puzzle over how to react to gender non-conforming students than they are about how to proceed without sexually harassing a student.
This is backwards; if one simply chooses to "react" to a gender-nonconforming student by only referring to the student by the student's name when speaking to a third party, then that is completely safe. There is no equally clear prescription to avoid any possible claim of sexual harassment, since it could be made on the basis of speech, gesture, gaze, or almost anything else.
This is nonsense. Sure, somebody can make a baseless claim of sexual harassment, just like they could make a baseless claim about anything else, but there just isn't some epidemic of people being baselessly accused of sexual harassment. If a student accused you of sexual harassment solely based on them thinking you looked at them in an untoward way, and there was no corroborating evidence, or a pattern of bad behavior, there is almost no way that complaint would be sustained. If it was, you'd have a hell of a lawsuit. Furthermore, a student is highly unlikely to make a complaint on this basis.
The way you avoid allegations of sexual harassment is by not commenting on people's bodies, not discussing your sex life or your student's sex lives and not treating your students as potential partners. Is it possible you could do all that and still face a baseless accusation? Sure, but you could also be accused of a murder you didn't commit...
I have at least 1 - 2 gender non-conforming students per semester.
I have messed up with pronouns once, but this is because I don't usually use pronouns. I typically refer to students by name.
Like another poster upthread, I have a hard time adjusting or changing once I learn someone's name. This is not for want of effort on my part. Fortunately I have never had a student change names midsemester.
My question: How often do we use pronouns to refer to students in class?
Quote from: hungry_ghost on July 22, 2019, 08:09:47 AM
I have at least 1 - 2 gender non-conforming students per semester.
I have messed up with pronouns once, but this is because I don't usually use pronouns. I typically refer to students by name.
Like another poster upthread, I have a hard time adjusting or changing once I learn someone's name. This is not for want of effort on my part. Fortunately I have never had a student change names midsemester.
My question: How often do we use pronouns to refer to students in class?
Pretty rarely afaic, which is another thing that makes me puzzle over how this is apparently such a big deal.
Quote from: youllneverwalkalone on July 22, 2019, 08:19:02 AM
Quote from: hungry_ghost on July 22, 2019, 08:09:47 AM
My question: How often do we use pronouns to refer to students in class?
Pretty rarely afaic, which is another thing that makes me puzzle over how this is apparently such a big deal.
In fact, it's only when talking
about one student
to another student
in the presence of the first student that it's going to matter. (If the first student isn't present, they are unlikely to be aware of what pronoun was used, if any. If a student refers to me by an incorrect pronoun in a conversation that I'm not a part of, I can't imagine why that would bother me. If it were done on purpose
as part of some derogatory comment, then the comment would be the thing I'd potentially care about.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 22, 2019, 08:26:52 AM
Quote from: youllneverwalkalone on July 22, 2019, 08:19:02 AM
Quote from: hungry_ghost on July 22, 2019, 08:09:47 AM
My question: How often do we use pronouns to refer to students in class?
Pretty rarely afaic, which is another thing that makes me puzzle over how this is apparently such a big deal.
In fact, it's only when talking about one student to another student in the presence of the first student that it's going to matter. (If the first student isn't present, they are unlikely to be aware of what pronoun was used, if any. If a student refers to me by an incorrect pronoun in a conversation that I'm not a part of, I can't imagine why that would bother me. If it were done on purpose as part of some derogatory comment, then the comment would be the thing I'd potentially care about.)
Thank you, so it's not just me who is puzzled about this.
Quote from: hungry_ghost on July 22, 2019, 09:09:37 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 22, 2019, 08:26:52 AM
Quote from: youllneverwalkalone on July 22, 2019, 08:19:02 AM
Quote from: hungry_ghost on July 22, 2019, 08:09:47 AM
My question: How often do we use pronouns to refer to students in class?
Pretty rarely afaic, which is another thing that makes me puzzle over how this is apparently such a big deal.
In fact, it's only when talking about one student to another student in the presence of the first student that it's going to matter. (If the first student isn't present, they are unlikely to be aware of what pronoun was used, if any. If a student refers to me by an incorrect pronoun in a conversation that I'm not a part of, I can't imagine why that would bother me. If it were done on purpose as part of some derogatory comment, then the comment would be the thing I'd potentially care about.)
Thank you, so it's not just me who is puzzled about this.
Again, I think I should mention that the situation is different in visual art classes. We rely on critiques of student work, involving a group of students and at least one faculty member, in order to provide diverse and relevant feedback (as well as assessment). In situations like this, which take place numerous times for each student during the course of each class, a piece or a body of work made by an individual is hung up and discussed by the group. Twice a semester, the critiques involve the entire painting department, and each student's work is discussed in depth for about 40 minutes. In the critique, it is hard or impossible to avoid pronouns, on the part of both faculty and students. The bit that is bolded in the above quote is exactly what I have to do all the time. In painting and drawing classes, the number of students is usually capped at 15 or 20, so it's not a huge group; the nature of the critique environment makes the culture of the classroom reflective and responsive, but also unintentionally personal...which can be uncomfortable, and is exacerbated by student work that is autobiographical in nature. As much as I try to approach my students with objective neutrality and critical distance, it is not entirely possible given the environment and the expectations.
But as someone who has attended classes in other disciplines (as a student, that is), I see how the issue of pronouns can be a confusing problem to bring up. It just doesn't make sense in certain other contexts, in which you never actually have to refer to your students in this way. I think there are probably many academic instances, though, when student work is discussed or critiqued by a group, and in those instances it is important to have both the name and the pronoun correct for each student. I have seen plenty of hurt feelings come from slip-ups in critiques, when the discussion--which focuses on an individual--is both high-stakes and public.
Quote from: hungry_ghost on July 22, 2019, 09:09:37 AM
In fact, it's only when talking about one student to another student in the presence of the first student that it's going to matter. (If the first student isn't present, they are unlikely to be aware of what pronoun was used, if any. If a student refers to me by an incorrect pronoun in a conversation that I'm not a part of, I can't imagine why that would bother me. If it were done on purpose as part of some derogatory comment, then the comment would be the thing I'd potentially care about.)
Thank you, so it's not just me who is puzzled about this.
[/quote]
Well, I think there are a few reasons you'd want to try to get it right. In some cases, a student might not want everyone to know they've transitioned and it could even be a safety issue unfortunately. More to the point, if a student would like people to call them by a certain name and use certain pronouns, if you aren't doing that to others, you aren't helping with that. All that said, if a student decides to change pronouns in the middle of the semester, they probably know it might be confusing and people might slip sometimes. As long as you're graceful about it, and don't either act like this is some big imposition or a huge deal that you've messed it up, it should be fine.
Quote from: Caracal on July 22, 2019, 11:32:37 AM
Quote from: hungry_ghost on July 22, 2019, 09:09:37 AM
Quote
In fact, it's only when talking about one student to another student in the presence of the first student that it's going to matter. (If the first student isn't present, they are unlikely to be aware of what pronoun was used, if any. If a student refers to me by an incorrect pronoun in a conversation that I'm not a part of, I can't imagine why that would bother me. If it were done on purpose as part of some derogatory comment, then the comment would be the thing I'd potentially care about.)
Thank you, so it's not just me who is puzzled about this.
Well, I think there are a few reasons you'd want to try to get it right. In some cases, a student might not want everyone to know they've transitioned and it could even be a safety issue unfortunately. More to the point, if a student would like people to call them by a certain name and use certain pronouns, if you aren't doing that to others, you aren't helping with that.
Would that still be true if you avoided using pronouns for anyone?
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 22, 2019, 08:26:52 AM
In fact, it's only when talking about one student to another student in the presence of the first student that it's going to matter. (If the first student isn't present, they are unlikely to be aware of what pronoun was used, if any. If a student refers to me by an incorrect pronoun in a conversation that I'm not a part of, I can't imagine why that would bother me. If it were done on purpose as part of some derogatory comment, then the comment would be the thing I'd potentially care about.)
The above quotation was misattributed to me. I said this:
Quote from: hungry_ghost on July 22, 2019, 09:09:37 AM
Thank you, so it's not just me who is puzzled about this.
revert79, your description of visual art critiques makes sense.
Quote from: Caracal on July 22, 2019, 11:32:37 AM
Well, I think there are a few reasons you'd want to try to get it right.
Of course I try to get it right. My point was, I don't have many opportunities to practice getting it right, nor for that matter, to get it wrong.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 22, 2019, 12:44:42 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 22, 2019, 11:32:37 AM
Quote from: hungry_ghost on July 22, 2019, 09:09:37 AM
Quote
In fact, it's only when talking about one student to another student in the presence of the first student that it's going to matter. (If the first student isn't present, they are unlikely to be aware of what pronoun was used, if any. If a student refers to me by an incorrect pronoun in a conversation that I'm not a part of, I can't imagine why that would bother me. If it were done on purpose as part of some derogatory comment, then the comment would be the thing I'd potentially care about.)
Thank you, so it's not just me who is puzzled about this.
Well, I think there are a few reasons you'd want to try to get it right. In some cases, a student might not want everyone to know they've transitioned and it could even be a safety issue unfortunately. More to the point, if a student would like people to call them by a certain name and use certain pronouns, if you aren't doing that to others, you aren't helping with that.
Would that still be true if you avoided using pronouns for anyone?
No, I don't think so, you aren't in charge of broadcasting it.
Quote from: tuxedo_cat on July 20, 2019, 03:21:24 PM
Thanks for the suggestion! Can I ask what kind of cards you use to create tent cards?
I just use cardstock--really thick paper--folded in half.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 10, 2019, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 10, 2019, 12:44:37 PM
But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.
It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being explicitly professional.
So, a student who wants to be called "Katie" when the institution has her legal name as "Kathleen" may not be unprofessional, but it is certainly disrespectful. Just call people what they want to be called. What problem is that for you, except an ideological one? Why do people insist on making it so difficult to simply be nice these days?
Quote from: xerprofrn on July 25, 2019, 03:09:38 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 10, 2019, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 10, 2019, 12:44:37 PM
But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.
It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being explicitly professional.
So, a student who wants to be called "Katie" when the institution has her legal name as "Kathleen" may not be unprofessional, but it is certainly disrespectful. Just call people what they want to be called. What problem is that for you, except an ideological one? Why do people insist on making it so difficult to simply be nice these days?
Well, yes, "Katie," vs. "Kathleen" seems unexceptionable. But where does one stop? If one is "Donald" on the roster, but the person says, "I prefer, 'Your Lordship, Don,'" when does one smile and when does one acquiesce? The boundary between "Sure, OK, I'll note that" and "Wha?" is not easy to find. Better to go with what they registered as, if it all otherwise seems strange? If it seems nothing special, "Donald" vs. "Don" vs. "Donny"? Why not?
Quote from: Juvenal on July 25, 2019, 05:23:55 PM
Quote from: xerprofrn on July 25, 2019, 03:09:38 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 10, 2019, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 10, 2019, 12:44:37 PM
But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.
It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being explicitly professional.
So, a student who wants to be called "Katie" when the institution has her legal name as "Kathleen" may not be unprofessional, but it is certainly disrespectful. Just call people what they want to be called. What problem is that for you, except an ideological one? Why do people insist on making it so difficult to simply be nice these days?
Well, yes, "Katie," vs. "Kathleen" seems unexceptionable. But where does one stop? If one is "Donald" on the roster, but the person says, "I prefer, 'Your Lordship, Don,'" when does one smile and when does one acquiesce? The boundary between "Sure, OK, I'll note that" and "Wha?" is not easy to find. Better to go with what they registered as, if it all otherwise seems strange? If it seems nothing special, "Donald" vs. "Don" vs. "Donny"? Why not?
And here's (https://nationalpost.com/opinion/bruce-pardy-meet-the-new-human-rights-where-you-are-forced-by-law-to-use-reasonable-pronouns-like-ze-and-zer) why it's not purely theoretical:
Quote
The Ontario Human Rights Commission has stated, in the context of equivalent provisions in the Ontario Human Rights Code, that "refusing to refer to a trans person by their chosen name and a personal pronoun that matches their gender identity ... will likely be discrimination when it takes place in a social area covered by the Code, including employment, housing and services like education."
Lord Don will get you eventually.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 26, 2019, 07:07:28 AM
Quote from: Juvenal on July 25, 2019, 05:23:55 PM
Well, yes, "Katie," vs. "Kathleen" seems unexceptionable. But where does one stop? If one is "Donald" on the roster, but the person says, "I prefer, 'Your Lordship, Don,'" when does one smile and when does one acquiesce? The boundary between "Sure, OK, I'll note that" and "Wha?" is not easy to find. Better to go with what they registered as, if it all otherwise seems strange? If it seems nothing special, "Donald" vs. "Don" vs. "Donny"? Why not?
And here's (https://nationalpost.com/opinion/bruce-pardy-meet-the-new-human-rights-where-you-are-forced-by-law-to-use-reasonable-pronouns-like-ze-and-zer) why it's not purely theoretical:
Quote
The Ontario Human Rights Commission has stated, in the context of equivalent provisions in the Ontario Human Rights Code, that "refusing to refer to a trans person by their chosen name and a personal pronoun that matches their gender identity ... will likely be discrimination when it takes place in a social area covered by the Code, including employment, housing and services like education."
Lord Don will get you eventually.
"North of the border, up Canada way..."
Quote from: Juvenal on July 25, 2019, 05:23:55 PM
Quote from: xerprofrn on July 25, 2019, 03:09:38 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 10, 2019, 02:05:23 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 10, 2019, 12:44:37 PM
But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.
It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being explicitly professional.
So, a student who wants to be called "Katie" when the institution has her legal name as "Kathleen" may not be unprofessional, but it is certainly disrespectful. Just call people what they want to be called. What problem is that for you, except an ideological one? Why do people insist on making it so difficult to simply be nice these days?
Well, yes, "Katie," vs. "Kathleen" seems unexceptionable. But where does one stop? If one is "Donald" on the roster, but the person says, "I prefer, 'Your Lordship, Don,'" when does one smile and when does one acquiesce? The boundary between "Sure, OK, I'll note that" and "Wha?" is not easy to find.
I'd say the boundary is at exactly the moment when they cease telling you what
name to call them and start assuming titles. In fact, I ran into exactly this situation. A student gave me the option of calling them a really silly name (not at all similar to the roster) or a title+other name (also not at all on the roster). So I called them the silly name.
Quote from: ergative on July 26, 2019, 09:18:02 AM
Quote from: Juvenal on July 25, 2019, 05:23:55 PM
Well, yes, "Katie," vs. "Kathleen" seems unexceptionable. But where does one stop? If one is "Donald" on the roster, but the person says, "I prefer, 'Your Lordship, Don,'" when does one smile and when does one acquiesce? The boundary between "Sure, OK, I'll note that" and "Wha?" is not easy to find.
I'd say the boundary is at exactly the moment when they cease telling you what name to call them and start assuming titles. In fact, I ran into exactly this situation. A student gave me the option of calling them a really silly name (not at all similar to the roster) or a title+other name (also not at all on the roster). So I called them the silly name.
I try to head this off at the outset by stating that I will call them by their preferred form of address (once I learn it) as long as it is acceptable in a professional setting. Because I do a lot of group work, I especially don't want to put other
students in the position of feeling obliged to refer to one another in ways that make anyone feel uncomfortable. This would include names containing expletives*, nicknames or titles that could make another student feel inferior, or nicknames that are distracting. I've had many nicknames that don't match roster names, but I've never had a student request an appellation that I thought crossed the line.
*Some of my foreign students do have names with English language expletives embedded. I'm just very, very careful to pronounce these exactly as the students did; usually the emphasis is in a differing part of the name.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on July 28, 2019, 07:44:24 AM
I try to head this off at the outset by stating that I will call them by their preferred form of address (once I learn it) as long as it is acceptable in a professional setting.....
but I've never had a student request an appellation that I thought crossed the line.
AR.
Right, because this is not actually a problem. Nobody wants to be known as Sir Poopypants and there's not some pandora's box of students waiting for the chance to be called something ridiculous.
Will your school be celebrating International Pronouns Day, Oct 16?
https://pronounsday.org/
An article relevant to this discussion: https://serendipitydodah.wordpress.com/2019/07/29/thats-a-really-good-question-5-can-i-just-use-someones-name-instead-of-trying-to-use-they-them-pronouns (https://serendipitydodah.wordpress.com/2019/07/29/thats-a-really-good-question-5-can-i-just-use-someones-name-instead-of-trying-to-use-they-them-pronouns)
On these situations, I speak and write as I normally do. If someone asks me to use a different pronoun when I refer to them, then I will do my best to accommodate. I have yet to encounter any direct offense to this approach. That is, if my doing this has offended someone, then they didn't tell me.