Has anyone else noticed that undergraduates are now using periods at the end of questions and question marks at the end of declarative statements? Why would adult students consistently make such incredibly basic errors? Somehow I don't think the confusion with these marks is just an effect of text messaging (in which case no punctuation at all is often used). When I call students out on the period/question mark issue, they shrug it off as if it were no big deal. Yet, using periods and question marks properly is something we learn in first grade or even kindergarten. Am I overexaggerating here? We've already seen the erosion of other skills at the college level such as basic reading comprehension and the ability to construct a simple argument or even to write in complete sentences. Now it's periods and question marks? What's next? Will we be teaching people how to sound out and form their own names? All kidding aside, I find the question mark/period issue to be really concerning, especially considering these are such basic skills that every educated person who writes in the English language should have thoroughly mastered by this point.
Would you hire someone. Who writes? Like this. Maybe. Not?
You are not exaggerating. But you need to mark student work down for mistakes of punctuation, spelling, capitalization, etc. You don't have to point out every single mistake. In fact I just note "make sure to proofread in the future for correct [whatever]" and mark down as appropriate. Occasionally I write "not college level English." The amount of time I spend grading a student's work correlates to the amount of time and effort the student put into it.
I see elementary school English mistakes like proper nouns that aren't capitalized, "sentences" without subjects, disagreement between singular and plural, substitution of correct wording with homonyms, totally made up words, etc. It all leads to lower grades. Not my problem if students don't want to bother with standard language conventions.
For those who whine "but this isn't an English class," you can give them this: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/us/oxford-comma-maine.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/us/oxford-comma-maine.html).
My students' papers have a lot of problems, but I have to say I haven't noticed question marks and periods being used wrong. Huh.
I don't think I've seen the period/question mark thing, although I do see a lot of missing or doubled periods. Most of my students these days have English as a second or third language, however, and punctuation in their native languages is very different, so it's hard to hold it against them.
Quote from: out_of_the_office on July 28, 2019, 05:01:05 PM
We've already seen the erosion of other skills at the college level such as basic reading comprehension and the ability to construct a simple argument or even to write in complete sentences.
That doesn't surprise me, since even several prominent comp textbooks get the notion of an argument
completely wrong.
I can't seem to find a link, but this reminds me of an NPR piece I heard just the other day. My take away was that Internet and texting culture has caused a change in way people use punctuation marks and stop words. For example, it is not uncommon for people to use a question mark, exclamation mark, or ellipsis merely to denote tone or inflection.
Quote from: phattangent on July 29, 2019, 10:02:26 AM
I can't seem to find a link, but this reminds me of an NPR piece I heard just the other day. My take away was that Internet and texting culture has caused a change in way people use punctuation marks and stop words. For example, it is not uncommon for people to use a question mark, exclamation mark, or ellipsis merely to denote tone or inflection.
That could explain the email I received just today from a co-worker. I read that email and thought immediately of this thread that I'd read this morning before work. That email had several unusual choices for the punctuation marks with a question mark where a period seemed reasonable and a period where I would have put a question mark. Yet, this isn't a new college graduate and the colleague speaks perfectly well when we talk face to face.
I found the NPR piece! https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/because-internet/
Phattangent, thanks for posting that link. This could very well have something to do with the period/question mark mixup. Something that also occurred to me is that maybe "upspeak" (the tendency to use rising instead of falling intonation when making a statement) has encouraged the use of the question mark where we would expect a period. This is something that is becoming more widespread with the younger generation (especially among women), although I hope it is just a passing fad as I think it makes people sound hesitant, childish, unauthoritative, and even unintelligent.
I have had many students over the past year or so send emails such as the following:
"Dear Professor X,
I missed class yesterday? So I'm not really clear on what we are supposed to do? I will come to your office hours tomorrow?"
I would suggest that messages such as this one are probably influenced by upspeak. However, I can't explain the use of the period where one would expect a question mark unless this is an effect of texting culture. Anyway, there have been several times that I have been darned confused about what a student wants when they mix up this punctuation and I have had to flat out ask that person if they are asking a question or making a statement. Again, this is all a very recent phenomenon. Two or three years ago they weren't doing this.
Somewhat related: Many NPR journalists now use upspeak in their reporting. It's also used by some news anchors. It drives me crazy.
Quote from: out_of_the_office on July 30, 2019, 12:04:57 AMSomewhat related: Many NPR journalists now use upspeak in their reporting. It's also used by some news anchors. It drives me crazy.
I hadn't noticed that?
Just got off a chat session with a librarian (I'm working on a research project for which I needed a very specific source that I have so far not been able to locate). I'm copying this verbatim. Wonder how old this person is and if he or she is a student worker.
"Libby 3:38:46 PM
I think I should be free in just a bit.
Here I am. Let me take a moment to read your question.
Let me see if I have anything that will help us with that? And, may I ask, how you have searched before for that information?"
Quote from: phattangent on July 30, 2019, 03:27:49 PM
Quote from: out_of_the_office on July 30, 2019, 12:04:57 AMSomewhat related: Many NPR journalists now use upspeak in their reporting. It's also used by some news anchors. It drives me crazy.
I hadn't noticed that?
Once you notice it, NPR and interview podcasts quickly become excruciating. It's really a tragedy. My own theory is that woke white people are especially prone to upspeak because they no longer believe themselves to be entitled to an opinion.
Quote from: writingprof on July 30, 2019, 04:20:12 PM
Quote from: phattangent on July 30, 2019, 03:27:49 PM
Quote from: out_of_the_office on July 30, 2019, 12:04:57 AMSomewhat related: Many NPR journalists now use upspeak in their reporting. It's also used by some news anchors. It drives me crazy.
I hadn't noticed that?
Once you notice it, NPR and interview podcasts quickly become excruciating. It's really a tragedy. My own theory is that woke white people are especially prone to upspeak because they no longer believe themselves to be entitled to an opinion.
Yes. Especially the interviewees, who are often working in political advocacy, government, or public policy research. Don't they realize that they immediately lose credibility and authority when they talk like a 13-year old girl from SoCal?
Recently I heard a new voice, an NPR staff reporter with a British accent, possibly the UK version of the standard mid-Atlantic U.S. accent formerly used in American broadcast media. It was such a pleasant change.
Quote from: spork on July 31, 2019, 02:36:56 AM
Yes. Especially the interviewees, who are often working in political advocacy, government, or public policy research. Don't they realize that they immediately lose credibility and authority when they talk like a 13-year old girl from SoCal?
How many of them had credibility or authority to start with? The older I get, the more I notice that many of those "experts" are almost fresh out of college with a lot of passion, but not a lot of anything else that would lend credibility or authority.
The community activist who has several years in the trenches has credibility, regardless of age when the years in the trenches started; I'm willing to believe someone at 23 could have several years in the trenches, because I've known people like that. However, those folks tend to get local coverage, not national coverage unless something goes drastically wrong. Those folks also tend to be very direct and intense with right is right and wrong is wrong. They will not make a statement a question; they will tell you flat out what the statements are.
Likewise, the recent PhD holder who spent several years with the data has credibility. The hardworking policy wonk who has been involved for the better part of a decade in various levels of government to now have a reasonable title has authority and possibly credibility. Occasionally, both of these types of people are less forceful that I expect, but they don't radiate uncertainty with the weird up speak.
Quote from: writingprof on July 30, 2019, 04:20:12 PM
Quote from: phattangent on July 30, 2019, 03:27:49 PM
Quote from: out_of_the_office on July 30, 2019, 12:04:57 AMSomewhat related: Many NPR journalists now use upspeak in their reporting. It's also used by some news anchors. It drives me crazy.
I hadn't noticed that?
Once you notice it, NPR and interview podcasts quickly become excruciating. It's really a tragedy. My own theory is that woke white people are especially prone to upspeak because they no longer believe themselves to be entitled to an opinion.
Do all these people you find to be so maddening happen to be women?
Quote from: Caracal on August 01, 2019, 11:07:27 AM
Quote from: writingprof on July 30, 2019, 04:20:12 PM
Quote from: phattangent on July 30, 2019, 03:27:49 PM
Quote from: out_of_the_office on July 30, 2019, 12:04:57 AMSomewhat related: Many NPR journalists now use upspeak in their reporting. It's also used by some news anchors. It drives me crazy.
I hadn't noticed that?
Once you notice it, NPR and interview podcasts quickly become excruciating. It's really a tragedy. My own theory is that woke white people are especially prone to upspeak because they no longer believe themselves to be entitled to an opinion.
Do all these people you find to be so maddening happen to be women?
Oh, snap! I'm a sexist!
Actually, no. Perhaps women lead the world in upspeak, or perhaps they merely lead the world in appearing on the podcasts and radio programs that I listen to. In any case, it's a male problem, too.
Well, this is a well documented thing. Upspeak isn't particularly new, and men do it too, but apparently anybody who employs youngish women to talk in some recored format gets huge amounts of comments complaining about the way they talk. But speech patterns evolve and change all the time. You're free to grumble about it if you want, or ascribe it to white guilt-strange as that idea might be-but it might be better to just accept that things change and not all of those changes are about the downfall of civilization.
I've seen periods used to indicate that a question is rhetorical. Something like this:
"The Others say that X is true. But do they really believe that. If they did, they wouldn't do Y."
I also see it on Twitter, where a number of people (including professional writers) use punctuation to indicate inflection.
"So... I don't know?? But maybe???" That sort of thing. I find it slightly annoying because it seems to be infantilizing somehow.
Quote from: Conjugate on August 03, 2019, 08:47:26 AM
I also see it on Twitter, where a number of people (including professional writers) use punctuation to indicate inflection.
"So... I don't know?? But maybe???" That sort of thing. I find it slightly annoying because it seems to be infantilizing somehow.
Great. Written upspeak. Sigh.