I am teaching the senior research course in history this semester. It is not a senior thesis, but the students are required to do a substantial research paper using primary sources. This semester all my classes, including this one, are online.
Because I prefer to read long papers in print, and because I don't have a printer at home, I require the students to print out and mail me a copy of the paper as well as upload a copy to Blackboard. The hard copy does not have to arrive by a certain date, just be postmarked b a certain date (today).
I went over all of this in the last session of the class. I asked them, if they knew how to mail a letter. They all looked at me like I was an idiot. I told them that my own children seem not to know how to mail stuff. I repeated that it only had to be postmarked by a certain date, and that that I suggested just putting it in an envelope and mailing it. Although I live in another state, it is the same metropolitan area and I have several weeks to enter grades. They all looked at me like I was explaining how to tie their shoes.
So far I have had four papers arrive.
One was in an envelope with just enough first class postage, but only had the address, not my name. (Luckily they did put the apartment number.)
One was in an envelope, but with about 5 times the required postage. (And, strangely, was not postmarked at all.)
One was sent via FedEx overnight delivery.
One was in an envelope with the right amount of postage with the correct, full name and address. This student decided to return to college after retiring.
Is it a strange demand to ask them to send me a copy? Could they have really gone this far in life without having to mail something?
Quote from: jerseyjay on May 13, 2021, 08:27:50 AM
I am teaching the senior research course in history this semester. It is not a senior thesis, but the students are required to do a substantial research paper using primary sources. This semester all my classes, including this one, are online.
Because I prefer to read long papers in print, and because I don't have a printer at home, I require the students to print out and mail me a copy of the paper as well as upload a copy to Blackboard. The hard copy does not have to arrive by a certain date, just be postmarked b a certain date (today).
I went over all of this in the last session of the class. I asked them, if they knew how to mail a letter. They all looked at me like I was an idiot. I told them that my own children seem not to know how to mail stuff. I repeated that it only had to be postmarked by a certain date, and that that I suggested just putting it in an envelope and mailing it. Although I live in another state, it is the same metropolitan area and I have several weeks to enter grades. They all looked at me like I was explaining how to tie their shoes.
So far I have had four papers arrive.
One was in an envelope with just enough first class postage, but only had the address, not my name. (Luckily they did put the apartment number.)
One was in an envelope, but with about 5 times the required postage. (And, strangely, was not postmarked at all.)
One was sent via FedEx overnight delivery.
One was in an envelope with the right amount of postage with the correct, full name and address. This student decided to return to college after retiring.
Is it a strange demand to ask them to send me a copy? Could they have really gone this far in life without having to mail something?
I can't remember the last time I sent something more than a letter or card in the mail. On the rare occasions I do have to send something, it is often time sensitive or large and I use a delivery service. Of course, that doesn't mean I couldn't figure this out easily enough.
I don't think you're asking anything inherently unreasonable, but it might not really be worth it. In your position, I'd be inclined to just go in to my office to print the papers out (although I'm fully vaccinated and might feel a bit more anxious about that if I wasn't...)
It's not that I think you did a terrible thing, but I actually think this is not very reasonable in this day and age. Either accept reading online like most people or buy a printer. Many of your students may not have easy access to a printer either--You are putting the burden on them to accommodate your preference which is out of step with probably every other class they have or will ever take.
If you really, really want a print copy, then go buy or pay to use a damn printer. You are putting an undue burden on your students. What would you do if one of them is overseas? Insist on a super-expensive international postage? Give out incomplete while you wait for mail from Indonesia/Italy/Iran?
Yes this is a strange demand and you are being really unfair to your students.
Agree with Puget. This is a very weird policy for an online class. You should be using university resources for university business. That means physical hand-in for in-person classes, or online submission for online classes. Your policy means that students have to use third parties to submit their work, and also requires that all of them have access to a printer.
The most efficient solution is not to require 30 students to buy a printer and ship 30 papers, but for you to buy one printer.
You are teaching college seniors. They're *seniors*. And it sounds like you are running a capstone course for their major. Which is, I'm also assuming, *history*.
Of course they should be able to figure out print mailing. If not, that is a basic job skill for this major, and I commend you on your ability to integrate that skillset into your curriculum.
Things change:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OADXNGnJok
I don't know how to ride a horse.
Quote from: Aster on May 13, 2021, 09:15:54 AM
You are teaching college seniors. They're *seniors*. And it sounds like you are running a capstone course for their major. Which is, I'm also assuming, *history*.
Of course they should be able to figure out print mailing. If not, that is a basic job skill for this major, and I commend you on your ability to integrate that skillset into your curriculum.
On second thought, I think it is unreasonable given the circumstances. If students are all on campus, they all have easy access to printers. As it is, they may not. COVID also complicates things for students without a printer. You don't want to be requiring students to go into some place to print something out right now when not everyone has had a chance to get fully vaccinated yet.
Quote from: Puget on May 13, 2021, 08:58:35 AM
It's not that I think you did a terrible thing, but I actually think this is not very reasonable in this day and age. Either accept reading online like most people or buy a printer. Many of your students may not have easy access to a printer either--You are putting the burden on them to accommodate your preference which is out of step with probably every other class they have or will ever take.
OP, you're also asking your students to go to a post office and stand in line in order to mail their assignments.
QuoteIs it a strange demand to ask them to send me a copy? Could they have really gone this far in life without having to mail something?
I agree with those that advocate YOU BUY A PRINTER!!
Your preference to avoid reading on the compute is NOT THEIR PROBLEM! Why should they undergo the expense and inconvenience of mailing something because it is too 'inconvenient" to you to either make a trip to your office or BUY A (profanity) PRINTER!
Look. I more than understand. I have Meniere's Disease. There are times that reading the computer for long stretches makes me physically ill, for a few days! I make the trip to the office and print on the office machine IF it is a lot of printing, or use my own printer to print.
There are probably A LOT of things your students can not do... drive a stick shift, dial a rotary phone, go a day without texting! or as someone noted above, ride a horse.
HOWEVER, YOU need to BUY A PRINTER because in the scheme of things, improper postage is a lesser problem than forcing your students to PAY for your failure to just BUY A PRINTER!
Perhaps a new thread on What Today's Students no longer do/know.
I would add:
Carry cash
Write a Check
MAIL a Check!
Actually, I have ridden a horse. I just didn't like it. And I had only as much control as the horse was willing to give me. I don't know how those rodeo riders do it.
If you're wanting to make this part of the job training that goes into a specific college major where this particular job skill is very much a thing and graduates should definitely know and practice how to use the postal system, then it's a wonderful idea and I applaud you for forward thinking and for improving the hard skills of your history majors.
But if you're just wanting hardcopies for your personal assessment scoring preferences, I agree with everybody else.
Quote from: Aster on May 13, 2021, 09:59:14 AM
If you're wanting to make this part of the job training that goes into a specific college major where this particular job skill is very much a thing and graduates should definitely know and practice how to use the postal system, then it's a wonderful idea and I applaud you for forward thinking and for improving the hard skills of your history majors.
But if you're just wanting hardcopies for your personal assessment scoring preferences, I agree with everybody else.
It reflects why the proportion of history majors has plummeted over the last two decades.
If how to mail a printed document that weighs more than an ounce is in your course learning outcomes, go to town. But it shouldn't be, and if you want printouts from your online students, I agree you should do the printing yourself.
You are mailing them all back, right? That appropriately puts your preferences (and the expense thereof) on you. If you're using university mail to cover the cost, imagine not doing that.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 13, 2021, 09:51:31 AM
Actually, I have ridden a horse. I just didn't like it. And I had only as much control as the horse was willing to give me. I don't know how those rodeo riders do it.
Well, truth to tell I suspect that even in the days when one either rode a horse or Shank's Mare not everybody who had to do the former really cared for having to do it.
I agree it's a problematic practice for a variety of reasons that others have identified.
I also wonder if your students knew they needed to do this when they registered for your class or at least at the 1st day of class, so they could make decisions about whether to take your section of the course with this requirement. If it wasn't clear that they would need to mail the document until the last day of class, then I think that is an issue (perhaps it was clear in your syllabus, your post just described the last day of class).
So, I'm confused. Would everyone be as up in arms if the OP required a print copy in their office mailbox? Are we objecting to hard copy printing? Mailing? Or both?
Quote from: waterboy on May 13, 2021, 11:51:38 AM
So, I'm confused. Would everyone be as up in arms if the OP required a print copy in their office mailbox? Are we objecting to hard copy printing? Mailing? Or both?
It's an online class. I've had students from other states in my online classes.
Quote from: waterboy on May 13, 2021, 11:51:38 AM
So, I'm confused. Would everyone be as up in arms if the OP required a print copy in their office mailbox? Are we objecting to hard copy printing? Mailing? Or both?
During normal times they could print on campus. Not sure about OP's campus, but ours is completely closed and students do not have access to printing right now.
Even if the campus is open, fully online students may not have access to the campus facilities.
Quote from: kiana on May 13, 2021, 12:13:19 PM
Quote from: waterboy on May 13, 2021, 11:51:38 AM
So, I'm confused. Would everyone be as up in arms if the OP required a print copy in their office mailbox? Are we objecting to hard copy printing? Mailing? Or both?
During normal times they could print on campus. Not sure about OP's campus, but ours is completely closed and students do not have access to printing right now.
Even if the campus is open, fully online students may not have access to the campus facilities.
And even if they do, they might be concerned about using them depending on their health and vaccination status.
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 13, 2021, 12:05:44 PM
Quote from: waterboy on May 13, 2021, 11:51:38 AM
So, I'm confused. Would everyone be as up in arms if the OP required a print copy in their office mailbox? Are we objecting to hard copy printing? Mailing? Or both?
It's an online class. I've had students from other states in my online classes.
Not to mention other countries. In the past, I've had students on special programs logging in from Australia, Costa Rica, France, Italy, Spain...
But a decent printer is really cheap. I agree that you should just get yourself to the nearest Staples/Costco/whatever and buy one.
Quote from: jerseyjay on May 13, 2021, 08:27:50 AM
This semester all my classes, including this one, are online.
...
Because I prefer to read long papers in print, and because I don't have a printer at home, I require the students to print out and mail me a copy of the paper as well as upload a copy to Blackboard. The hard copy does not have to arrive by a certain date, just be postmarked b a certain date (today).
...
Is it a strange demand to ask them to send me a copy?
Yes, strange demand. You need to get your own home office printer. Unfortunately, printers, paper, and ink cost $$$. Maybe your u will provide a stipend? My u is not helpful on this.
I also prefer to read long papers in print. When classes are in-person/hybrid, I require print copies. Students hate that (oh well). Many don't have printers at home -- just as you do not.
When teaching fully-online in the 21st century, it's my responsibility to deal with paper reading technology, not the students'. It's not reasonable to expect students to mail copies. The USPS mail service these days is nothing like it used to be, very slow in many cases, particularly for mail across states. Can take a week or more (direct experience in past 6 months). Expecting an international student to mail a print copy is obviously also unreasonable.
Quote from: jerseyjay on May 13, 2021, 08:27:50 AM
Because I prefer to read long papers in print, and because I don't have a printer at home, I require the students to print out and mail me a copy of the paper as well as upload a copy to Blackboard. ... So far I have had four papers arrive.
Setting aside my general agreement that the OP shouldn't require students to mail a hard copy of the paper under the present circumstances...
Many of the comments in the "Bang Your Head on Your Desk - the thread of teaching despair!" thread and elsewhere suggest that the OP would have gotten much better results by offering a trivial amount of extra credit for sending a hard copy on time instead of requiring it.
I have to admit that I am somewhat taken aback by the reactions. And to be honest, I do not find the arguments convincing (except that I should buy a printer; that I agree with).
For the record, the syllabus (which was available on the first day of class and was mailed in January to all students who were registered for the class) states clearly that they would have to mail the paper. And I stated this repeatedly.
Also, I also stated that for students who were outside of the metropolitan area that I would not require this. (As it turned out, all of my students are within 40 miles, but in my other classes I do have students all over the place.) I also stated that students who do not have printers could upload the paper via Blackboard.
I also do not make them turn all the work--including the rough drafts--for the semester in via the mail.
While the point about getting a printer is well taken, I am also somewhat mystified by the outrage that I am forcing my students to take huge expenses. I mean, this class had no assigned textbook, and since the students did not have to commute to each class, they are probably saving $15 per session in gas, tolls, and parking. An envelope, at most, costs $1 and postage, if the paper is heavier than average, $2.
Of course I am mailing them back the final papers with comments. Between envelope and postage I expect to spend less than $30.
I am sure I learned something by posting this, but I am still not sure what I learned.
For what it is worth, I actually do believe people should probably know how to ride a horse. But I definitely do believe that people should know how to send something through the mail. It is not in my learning objectives, but neither is using the elevator, but I expect them to be able to get to the classroom (when we meet on campus).
But I'm a little afraid of horses...
A friend of mine in grad school was bitten on the face by a horse and wandered around in shock until a kindly elderly couple found her by the highway.
What happens when someone's work inevitably gets lost in the mail? And I mean truly lost, not a fake excuse. For instance, the student sends you a legible photo of a receipt from the post office?
Mail in and from the south is taking up to two weeks to places that used to be three days or four at most.
This is by observation of six folks I've been working with since January--we're trying to get changes in a bank account with office folks located in AZ and FL, between our folks in GA and MD, and others in NC and TN.
I'm guessing the destroyed, parts-taken-out, thrown-out sorting machines--sabotaged by the replacement postmaster general at the end of the previous regime, quite possibly acting under orders to disrupt mail-in voting in the south--have not been fixed.
Things have been (still) backed up (or thrown out) when local sorters got overwhelmed.
So you're potentially asking folks to use a badly broken system just for your convenience.
Really? I think not.
M.
It's weird that you expect students to have access to a printer when you don't, and it's weird that you add so many extra steps to what should be a fairly easy process for an online course (just have students upload the essays into the LMS, and print them off yourself if you want to).
You can do the mail thing, but it's a clear violation of the KISS principle.
To be helpful, my CC has allowed us to take our office printers home (our office printers aren't on any network--they are just hard-wired to our office desktops). It's worth asking about.
Remarkable that anyone should suggest that it is the professor's responsibility to print out hard-copy papers for entitled students. I insist on hard-copies, because I red-ink the snot out of them. And because I am the professor.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 13, 2021, 11:37:06 PM
Remarkable that anyone should suggest that it is the professor's responsibility to print out hard-copy papers for entitled students. I insist on hard-copies, because I red-ink the snot out of them. And because I am the professor.
Requiring hard copies is fine,
if the university provides the resources to make that happen. Multiple people have agreed that there's no problem with hard copies when the libraries and computer printing labs are open. But when classes are online, those resources are not available. The post office loses mail. Getting tracking costs something like $5-$10. FedEx overnight express costs on the order of $20-50.
We are not arguing, I think (or at least I am not), about the principle of requiring hard copies. That's fine. We're arguing about the principle of requiring hard copies, sent through a third party, for an online class, during a pandemic.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 13, 2021, 11:37:06 PM
Remarkable that anyone should suggest that it is the professor's responsibility to print out hard-copy papers for entitled students. I insist on hard-copies, because I red-ink the snot out of them. And because I am the professor.
Regrettable that an instructor believes that students read term papers covered with red-inked comments when the semester has ended.
My uni started charging students for printing. That led me to ditch my requirement of hard copies.
Quote from: ergative on May 14, 2021, 02:00:06 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 13, 2021, 11:37:06 PM
Remarkable that anyone should suggest that it is the professor's responsibility to print out hard-copy papers for entitled students. I insist on hard-copies, because I red-ink the snot out of them. And because I am the professor.
Requiring hard copies is fine, if the university provides the resources to make that happen. Multiple people have agreed that there's no problem with hard copies when the libraries and computer printing labs are open. But when classes are online, those resources are not available. The post office loses mail. Getting tracking costs something like $5-$10. FedEx overnight express costs on the order of $20-50.
We are not arguing, I think (or at least I am not), about the principle of requiring hard copies. That's fine. We're arguing about the principle of requiring hard copies, sent through a third party, for an online class, during a pandemic.
+1 to the bolded above. Requiring students to not just print out their papers but also to stand in line in a post office during a pandemic is unreasonable. I would also take issue with requiring printed submissions for online classes regardless of the information in the syllabus.
Quote from: ergative on May 14, 2021, 02:00:06 AM
Requiring hard copies is fine, if the university provides the resources to make that happen. Multiple people have agreed that there's no problem with hard copies when the libraries and computer printing labs are open. But when classes are online, those resources are not available. The post office loses mail. Getting tracking costs something like $5-$10. FedEx overnight express costs on the order of $20-50.
We are not arguing, I think (or at least I am not), about the principle of requiring hard copies. That's fine. We're arguing about the principle of requiring hard copies, sent through a third party, for an online class, during a pandemic.
Okay, I desist.
Although for the record:
As I stated in the original post, students uploaded the assignment to Blackboard and sent a copy. If it does not reach me by the time I need to grade it, the backup is the electronic copy. And the need to send a copy explicitly only applied to people in the same metro area, not people who are abroad or elsewhere in the country. And while tracking, overnight delivery, and singing telegrams could cost quite a bit, none of that was required.
The argument that this requires queuing in the post office in a pandemic is I think the strongest (along with the getting a printer). To be honest I did not think of that because I do not think that this technically requires going to the post office because both envelopes and stamps are available at the supermarket and elsewhere, as well as online. That said, I could see how this could make somebody think they have to go to the post office, and that wasn't my intent.
QuoteI also stated that for students who were outside of the metropolitan area that I would not require this[/u]. (As it turned out, all of my students are within 40 miles, but in my other classes I do have students all over the place.) I also stated that students who do not have printers could upload the paper via Blackboard.
[/u]
How do you handle these peoples' papers?
Quotethey are probably saving $15 per session in gas, tolls, and parking.
Similarly, it would seem that you have saved enough to pay for that printer and ink! I am sure that you can pick up a rheem or two of paper from your employer, as you are not copying or printing there. However, you could save all of that money by making one single trip to the office to print, read, grade, comment, scan, upload and return electronically all properly submitted work.
I suppose that my issues include that this is an online class.
The OP has criticized their class's ineptitude to use the mail (when they seldom seem to need or desire to use that system as there ARE alternatives that they are more accustomed to using).
That the OP thinks that it is OK to inconvenience 40 people to print, travel to a post office, apply proper postage (not just stick ample postage), so that the OP is not inconvenienced to have to travel to his/her own office IF he/she requires printed copies, as opposed to purchasing a printer.
As the OP was able to add this to the syllabus, the need for a printer is not a surprise.
Finally, the OP assumes that the addresses that the university has (most likely 'permanent addresses') are actually where the students live. IS it a FERPA violation to provide graded material to someone other than the student?
(On a tangent to the last, my former PhD school officemate (not retired) used to mail home exams that students didnt come to class to pick up. On occasion a student would complain and demand that he 'never send my work to my parent's house'. He would reply, "First, you should study more to get better grades so that your parents are not surprised. Second you should have come to one of the subsequent classes to pick up your work. And finally, you should change your address so that university mail does not go to your parents' house.)
Sorry for piling on.
It looks like the OP and I were preparing replies simultaneously.
Since it was clearly stated in the syllabus at the start of class, I do not think this is a problem, though I think singing telegrams would be more fun.
However, when mamselle says that
Quote from: mamselle on May 13, 2021, 06:48:53 PM
Mail in and from the south is taking up to two weeks to places that used to be three days or four at most.
she greatly exaggerates their efficiency. My mail is taking over a month to arrive in some instances, and two full months (61 days) during one particularly memorable occasion this spring. You may still be getting papers in July.
AR.
Regarding student access to printers on campus, I am reading a lot of alarmist hooey from many of these comments. I've worked at non-residential, commuter institutions with poor public printer access for many years. And I and many of our faculty require students to print lots of stuff out regularly. And yes, we charge students to print stuff out. We've done this for over a decade. Printing fees are super-cheap anywhere you go. Anywhere you go.
If my admittedly sub-par, open enrollment institution serving tens of thousands of first-generation students, with poor public printing access, doesn't have issues in getting students to print things out, it's probably pretty ridiculous to think that this is a problem for anyone else.
Sure, students whine and complain. But we as professional should be able to accurately discern between students whining about something, and students unable to actually do something. Printing things is in the latter category.
Students print stuff out. Often lots of stuff. For home use. For class use. For remote classes. And yes, for *online* classes. Fully online courses do not in any way mean "fully electronic". Fully online courses merely mean that you don't need to come to campus. Heck, half of the classes at Big Urban College are fully online, and we're the lead fully online institution for our region. Many online faculty require students to purchase/use print items at home. It's a perfectly valid online instructional option. One of the leading online professors and online course developers for our institution has hardcopy printing requirements for some of her classes. It's not a problem. Quite the reverse, actually. Her use of multi-modal techniques in her online courses is part of why she is one of the most popular online instructors with her students, and why she was hand-picked by the provost to lead many of our online course training programs.
Residential students living in dormitories are perhaps the only student demographic that one might reasonably assume to not have personal printer access. This demographic will use the campus printing centers, so there's no problem for them. Everybody else? They have home printers, or can easily drive themselves to a CVS, Walgreens, Staples, Office Depot, UPS Store, public libraries, their own workplace, etc... where document printing services are offered. I mean come on people! What do you think that regular folks who don't work at universities do to print stuff out if they don't have a home printer? Duh, everybody needs to print stuff out occasionally for something. They use a local service from the bazillion local retailers in their area. These services are everywhere. I know that a lot of us are so used to free-loading print services from our campus offices that we never print from anywhere else, so we're probably the last person that a 18-year old freshpeep student might ask about this. Judging from the comments I've seen here, I probably would not ask a professor. I'd just ask an older student or run a local google search for "document printing services".
So no, asking students to print stuff out is not at all unreasonable, pandemic or not. Heck, the pandemic probably forced *more* students to purchase home printers. So that's not a problem, at all. I've run 12 remote courses in the last year with regular, sometimes weekly home printing requirements. Not a single (valid) complaint about it. Zero. Zip. And our campus printing services have been closed almost that entire time. Did I get a bit whining? Yes. Did students not print stuff out? No.
There are also several comments about "standing in line at the post office" that are rather hyperbolic. I suppose that if you only go to the post office at Christmas, or maybe during the lunch hour in a downtown urban district, you might have to stand in line, and this is actually a bit of time-suck. But for most U.S. post offices around the country, during regular working hours, if there is a line at all, it is a short one. And that's only if you require personal service. I can see that a lot of people here don't have much recent experience in using post offices regularly, or only use them for packages. A manila envelope with some papers in it does not require personal desk service at the post office. That's either plain lazy, or you have a crappy post office. Lots of U.S. post offices have fully automated stations for both weighing and paying for stamps for manila envelopes. Lots of U.S. post offices may not have the fully automated stations, but they have separate weighing stations, and/or All post offices have direct drop slips where a stamped manila envelope can be inserted without standing in line.
And that's just for non-folded documents requiring a manila envelope. If you're folding your documents up and sticking them into a regular envelope? That's 1-2 stamps and a drop in a mailbox. Whoopdee-do. This is a Nothing Burger.
Addressed Envelope + Stamp + Get off your Duff and Stick in Mailbox = Success
Professional historians obviously know this, as they may routinely have to work with mailed documents as part of their jobs. I'm not a historian, but I do mail documents occasionally, and for nearly all the time, little of the alarmist complaints posted in this thread about post offices are valid.
Heck, the more that I read here about the ignorance about post offices, the more emphatically I believe that if you are training history majors, hard skills like physically acquainting oneself with document mailing at a postal office should be a mandatory learning objective. In STEM, we routinely add the training of hard skills into our courses.
***
All that said, I do agree that you as a professor need to get yourself access to a printer. You really should not be without. And if you're requiring students to mail you stuff, you really must not be without. There will ALWAYS be a few students who are going to mess something up or have something bad happen to their hardcopies. For those students, it falls on the professor's responsibility to have alternative submission options for student emergencies. Buy a printer, borrow a printer, or go to campus and use your printer there.
Whew!
It's clearly been a stressful week.
I will step back, I think maybe we all need to step back.
As clean notes, we're staring to do a forum pile-on of outraged proportions...
The point has been made and accepted.
Nothing more to see here...
Move along...
;--}
M.
I think the fact that only four students have managed to complete the assignment (by mailing the papers) shows that it is not a reasonable expectation.
Quote from: Hegemony on May 14, 2021, 09:39:48 AM
I think the fact that only four students have managed to complete the assignment (by mailing the papers) shows that it is not a reasonable expectation.
The assignments are not due yet. The OP only required the postmarking be no later than May 13th. Typical college students wait until the last day to do most everything, so I would not be surprised if most of the class didn't mail the things out until May 13th.
Quote from: Aster on May 14, 2021, 09:28:08 AM
All that said, I do agree that you as a professor need to get yourself access to a printer. You really should not be without. And if you're requiring students to mail you stuff, you really must not be without. There will ALWAYS be a few students who are going to mess something up or have something bad happen to their hardcopies. For those students, it falls on the professor's responsibility to have alternative submission options for student emergencies. Buy a printer, borrow a printer, or go to campus and use your printer there.
As an update, for what it is worth, I have posted a note on Blackboard clarifying that students do not have to go to the post office if they feel unsafe and I apologized for not taking into account that we are in a pandemic.
And for the record, I do have access to a printer. I have one in the department, and access to others. I can pay the "multiservices" store across the street to use theirs if it is urgent. I got rid of my printer--just like I got rid of my fax machine, my record player, and my VHS machine--in part because I do not have room to put it in my apartment, but I should try to find something.
[Not having a printer is also a way to force myself to only print stuff that I think I need to print. I put everything I want to print on my USB stick and then print it out when I get to my office, by which time at least half of the material no longer seems that useful.]
It is true that there will always be some students who cannot print something out. Just like there are always some students who will not make the deadline, but that doesn't mean I should eliminate deadlines.
I suppose that I should have gone into my office to print out the papers. The problem is that the school frowns upon printing stuff in large quantities (we are not supposed to print out the syllabi for the students, either, in a normal period). Also, I cannot expect the students to submit the paper by any particular time; even today, two days after the deadline to upload the paper, only half the students have submitted their papers via Blackboard. I could probably have figured something out, but, to be honest, I just mechanically applied my normal policy to a situation with a pandemic.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to reflect on this issue.
Quote from: mamselle on May 14, 2021, 09:30:23 AM
Whew!
It's clearly been a stressful week.
I will step back, I think maybe we all need to step back.
As clean notes, we're staring to do a forum pile-on of outraged proportions...
The point has been made and accepted.
Nothing more to see here...
Move along...
;--}
M.
+1 But I just want to add one more thing. Doesn't seem like equitable treatment of students to permit some to send their paper online-only while others must submit via both hard copy and online. I strive to uphold same requirements for all students (with rare, quiet, individually-arranged exceptions for extreme cases).
Notes here about steep decline of USPS align with my daily sadness about USPS. May we see USPS restored to its former greatness soon. A fundamental institution with a history of serving all regardless of location.
Good luck jerseyjay. Your course, your decisions. I have much sympathy here because I strongly prefer to read paper copies.
Quote from: spork on May 14, 2021, 02:34:37 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 13, 2021, 11:37:06 PM
Remarkable that anyone should suggest that it is the professor's responsibility to print out hard-copy papers for entitled students. I insist on hard-copies, because I red-ink the snot out of them. And because I am the professor.
Regrettable that an instructor believes that students read term papers covered with red-inked comments when the semester has ended.
Same applies prior to end of semester. Took me years before I finally realized my plentiful, individualized comments were mostly ignored by most students (undergrad and grad). They'd submit second papers without addressing problems I'd clearly flagged on first papers. For final papers, some colleagues even tell students "if you want comments, let me know" and don't provide otherwise.
Quote from: Aster on May 14, 2021, 09:28:08 AM
Residential students living in dormitories are perhaps the only student demographic that one might reasonably assume to not have personal printer access. This demographic will use the campus printing centers, so there's no problem for them. Everybody else? They have home printers, or can easily drive themselves to a CVS, Walgreens, Staples, Office Depot, UPS Store, public libraries, their own workplace, etc... where document printing services are offered. I mean come on people! What do you think that regular folks who don't work at universities do to print stuff out if they don't have a home printer? Duh, everybody needs to print stuff out occasionally for something. They use a local service from the bazillion local retailers in their area. These services are everywhere.
Ahh, brings back memories of when I was in school, living 40 minutes away from the nearest town (not by choice, I worked there and was kindly provided a room too), and my car broke down. Being quite poor after having spent all my money on tuition and textbooks, I couldn't afford to fix it. It was summer and I was taking online classes so thankfully I did not miss classes, but if I had been required to get to town to mail something it would have been very difficult. There are lots of reasons why a student may have trouble getting somewhere.
I currently have students who are disabled and unable to drive places. They are thrilled that they have the opportunity to take online classes which don't require traveling.
Not sure what kind of students attend your school, but mine tend to be like I was.... very poor and every expense a struggle.
I remember a professor told me to purchase something once and told me it would cost loss than my daily morning coffee at Starbucks. I thought to myself, "who can afford to buy Starbucks
once much less daily?"
Not to mention how much a printer costs and the ink! It can be pretty expensive.
Sometimes, people can be out of touch with struggles that students face.
And some, like kaysixteen, refer to them as entitled without knowing the full situation.
Quote from: jerseyjay on May 14, 2021, 10:04:04 AM
Quote from: Aster on May 14, 2021, 09:28:08 AM
All that said, I do agree that you as a professor need to get yourself access to a printer. You really should not be without. And if you're requiring students to mail you stuff, you really must not be without. There will ALWAYS be a few students who are going to mess something up or have something bad happen to their hardcopies. For those students, it falls on the professor's responsibility to have alternative submission options for student emergencies. Buy a printer, borrow a printer, or go to campus and use your printer there.
As an update, for what it is worth, I have posted a note on Blackboard clarifying that students do not have to go to the post office if they feel unsafe and I apologized for not taking into account that we are in a pandemic.
And for the record, I do have access to a printer. I have one in the department, and access to others. I can pay the "multiservices" store across the street to use theirs if it is urgent. I got rid of my printer--just like I got rid of my fax machine, my record player, and my VHS machine--in part because I do not have room to put it in my apartment, but I should try to find something.
[Not having a printer is also a way to force myself to only print stuff that I think I need to print. I put everything I want to print on my USB stick and then print it out when I get to my office, by which time at least half of the material no longer seems that useful.]
It is true that there will always be some students who cannot print something out. Just like there are always some students who will not make the deadline, but that doesn't mean I should eliminate deadlines.
I suppose that I should have gone into my office to print out the papers. The problem is that the school frowns upon printing stuff in large quantities (we are not supposed to print out the syllabi for the students, either, in a normal period). Also, I cannot expect the students to submit the paper by any particular time; even today, two days after the deadline to upload the paper, only half the students have submitted their papers via Blackboard. I could probably have figured something out, but, to be honest, I just mechanically applied my normal policy to a situation with a pandemic.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to reflect on this issue.
Given the pile-on you've experienced, I think you're handling your reflection very gracefully.
Quote from: Charlotte on May 14, 2021, 01:32:02 PM
Quote from: Aster on May 14, 2021, 09:28:08 AM
Residential students living in dormitories are perhaps the only student demographic that one might reasonably assume to not have personal printer access. This demographic will use the campus printing centers, so there's no problem for them. Everybody else? They have home printers, or can easily drive themselves to a CVS, Walgreens, Staples, Office Depot, UPS Store, public libraries, their own workplace, etc... where document printing services are offered. I mean come on people! What do you think that regular folks who don't work at universities do to print stuff out if they don't have a home printer? Duh, everybody needs to print stuff out occasionally for something. They use a local service from the bazillion local retailers in their area. These services are everywhere.
Ahh, brings back memories of when I was in school, living 40 minutes away from the nearest town (not by choice, I worked there and was kindly provided a room too), and my car broke down. Being quite poor after having spent all my money on tuition and textbooks, I couldn't afford to fix it. It was summer and I was taking online classes so thankfully I did not miss classes, but if I had been required to get to town to mail something it would have been very difficult. There are lots of reasons why a student may have trouble getting somewhere.
Yes, rural students have far fewer options. Our library is the only option for public printing, or very close to it, in a substantial radius. At least we haven't had to do like some less well-funded libraries and hike the cost of printing to use it as a cash cow to keep the doors open. We just charge for printing to recover costs and avoid the abuse that would be inevitable if word got out that we printed for free. When I worked at a university library we had free (to the patron) printing. The wastage of "free" paper and toner was absolutely grotesque.
Quote from: apl68 on May 14, 2021, 01:51:44 PM
Quote from: jerseyjay on May 14, 2021, 10:04:04 AM
As an update, for what it is worth, I have posted a note on Blackboard clarifying that students do not have to go to the post office if they feel unsafe and I apologized for not taking into account that we are in a pandemic.
And for the record, I do have access to a printer. I have one in the department, and access to others. I can pay the "multiservices" store across the street to use theirs if it is urgent. I got rid of my printer--just like I got rid of my fax machine, my record player, and my VHS machine--in part because I do not have room to put it in my apartment, but I should try to find something.
[Not having a printer is also a way to force myself to only print stuff that I think I need to print. I put everything I want to print on my USB stick and then print it out when I get to my office, by which time at least half of the material no longer seems that useful.]
It is true that there will always be some students who cannot print something out. Just like there are always some students who will not make the deadline, but that doesn't mean I should eliminate deadlines.
I suppose that I should have gone into my office to print out the papers. The problem is that the school frowns upon printing stuff in large quantities (we are not supposed to print out the syllabi for the students, either, in a normal period). Also, I cannot expect the students to submit the paper by any particular time; even today, two days after the deadline to upload the paper, only half the students have submitted their papers via Blackboard. I could probably have figured something out, but, to be honest, I just mechanically applied my normal policy to a situation with a pandemic.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to reflect on this issue.
Given the pile-on you've experienced, I think you're handling your reflection very gracefully.
+1. I do have strong feelings about the post offices in my neck of the woods based on my experiences on the two occasions I ventured to one of their locations this year.
Quote from: spork on May 14, 2021, 02:34:37 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 13, 2021, 11:37:06 PM
Remarkable that anyone should suggest that it is the professor's responsibility to print out hard-copy papers for entitled students. I insist on hard-copies, because I red-ink the snot out of them. And because I am the professor.
Regrettable that an instructor believes that students read term papers covered with red-inked comments when the semester has ended.
Hey, I used to read mine . . . .
The fact that student x does not deign to come and get papers after the semester ends, when they are clearly available, does not mitigate against the professor's responsibility to thoroughly comment on them.
I question the idea that it's okay to require mailing because the student does not have to go to the post office; students can buy envelopes and stamps at the supermarket. First of all, it's unclear how much it's going to cost to mail an essay of several pages — probably more than your basic 55-cent stamp. So somehow the student has to get the thing weighed, which probably means going to the post office. And first they have to get the envelope from somewhere, so that may mean going to the supermarket and the post office — not a reduction in risk at all.
I'll interject here that my son took an online class in Korean this year. One of the assignments was to go to a Korean restaurant and order something. Son is living with me; I am immune-compromised. We have been completely isolated for more than a year, because if I get the virus, my chances are not good. We get all groceries delivered; we literally have not been to any commercial establishment in more than a year. And yet when my son told the Korean instructor that he could not go to a Korean restaurant, she argued with him about how easy it would be. We're in a pandemic! People take online classes in a pandemic precisely so they don't have to interact with others! Requiring them to go out and interact with others to fulfill the requirements of the course is not only perverse; in some cases it could make a real difference to people's health. Why anyone would devise an assignment that requires that is beyond me.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 15, 2021, 12:12:43 AM
The fact that student x does not deign to come and get papers after the semester ends, when they are clearly available, does not mitigate against the professor's responsibility to thoroughly comment on them.
I thought the professor's responsibility was to help students learn.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 15, 2021, 12:12:43 AM
The fact that student x does not deign to come and get papers after the semester ends, when they are clearly available, does not mitigate against the professor's responsibility to thoroughly comment on them.
What's with the assumptions you have made about students? "Entitled student" and "does not deign" suggest that you know exactly what is happening with your students and why they do or do not do something. Could it be that there are circumstances you are unaware of and your assumptions could be wrong?
You might be right, you might be wrong, but either way it does no harm to view students in a more positive manner.
Quote from: apl68 on May 14, 2021, 01:51:44 PM
I suppose that I should have gone into my office to print out the papers. The problem is that the school frowns upon printing stuff in large quantities (we are not supposed to print out the syllabi for the students, either, in a normal period). Also, I cannot expect the students to submit the paper by any particular time; even today, two days after the deadline to upload the paper, only half the students have submitted their papers via Blackboard. I could probably have figured something out, but, to be honest, I just mechanically applied my normal policy to a situation with a pandemic.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to reflect on this issue.
Given the pile-on you've experienced, I think you're handling your reflection very gracefully.
[/quote]
Agree, we all have these moments sometimes. Part of being in charge of things is occasionally making the wrong call and it speaks well of you that you're willing to just cop to a small misjudgment. In the larger context, the whole thing is no big deal.
On late papers...I know this will drive some people crazy, but I really don't care if papers are a little late as long as they arrive eventually. I pretty much have institutionalized this as a policy in my classes at this point. For example, in my upper level class, papers were due on Monday this week. I told the whole class that, while that was the deadline and it was designed to help get the paper done before finals, but if they had a bunch of things due at the same time and a few extra days would be helpful, they should just email me requesting an extension and I'd grant it. About half the class turned the thing in on time, and the other half asked for the extension and I told them they could have till Friday. Almost everybody has turned it in by now.
This isn't hard to manage, because I don't actually keep track of who asked for an extension and who didn't. If you don't email me and just turn the thing in late, I don't take off any points or even notice usually. I'll go through this afternoon and make sure there aren't any unexpected missing papers from students who are on track to pass the course and if there are I'll email those students. It all works fine and saves me the trouble of worrying about late papers.
You do realize that good, thoughtful professorial comments are an integral part of helping students learn, right? I wonder why you would denigrate doing this?
I am also always willing to send the student their paper US mail, if they provide a paid envelope.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 16, 2021, 09:01:26 PM
You do realize that good, thoughtful professorial comments are an integral part of helping students learn, right? I wonder why you would denigrate doing this?
I am also always willing to send the student their paper US mail, if they provide a paid envelope.
I always provide comments on final papers by request and tell students that. However, I can grade so much more quickly when I don't do it, I'm so pressed for time at the end of the semester and I know that most students won't look at them. Spork is being sort of a jerk, however.
Quote from: Caracal on May 17, 2021, 04:52:22 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 16, 2021, 09:01:26 PM
You do realize that good, thoughtful professorial comments are an integral part of helping students learn, right? I wonder why you would denigrate doing this?
I am also always willing to send the student their paper US mail, if they provide a paid envelope.
I always provide comments on final papers by request and tell students that. However, I can grade so much more quickly when I don't do it, I'm so pressed for time at the end of the semester and I know that most students won't look at them.
I can't remember where I read it, but one prof had a brilliant take on this. There were 2 due dates for a paper; early and final. Papers submitted by the "early" date would get detailed comments, and would be returned so students could revise and resubmit. Papers submitted by the "final" date would just get graded; no comments at all. The few students motivated enough to submit by the early date would read the comments and benefit; the vast majority who submitted at the "final" date didn't care about comments, and the prof didn't need to waste time on them.
When I have a small enough upper level class I have done group tutorials on student essays--everyone has to read the three essays for the day, and then we read parts aloud and comment on the writing as well as the argument. This is quite polarizing, as some students like it a lot while others find it mortifying, but at least some students are clearly benefiting from feedback. I've become quite tired of making extensive comments for no avail.
I give feedback to all students via a rubric now. But I only put written comments on paper drafts. Sometimes I require drafts, sometimes I don't. If a school wants to really prioritize writing skills, then it should designate a course as "writing intensive" and limit the number of students in the class.
Teaching these days is very much about being efficient, and writing detailed comments on work that most students won't read and won't act on is a bad use of my time.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 17, 2021, 05:15:04 AM
Quote from: Caracal on May 17, 2021, 04:52:22 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 16, 2021, 09:01:26 PM
You do realize that good, thoughtful professorial comments are an integral part of helping students learn, right? I wonder why you would denigrate doing this?
I am also always willing to send the student their paper US mail, if they provide a paid envelope.
I always provide comments on final papers by request and tell students that. However, I can grade so much more quickly when I don't do it, I'm so pressed for time at the end of the semester and I know that most students won't look at them.
I can't remember where I read it, but one prof had a brilliant take on this. There were 2 due dates for a paper; early and final. Papers submitted by the "early" date would get detailed comments, and would be returned so students could revise and resubmit. Papers submitted by the "final" date would just get graded; no comments at all. The few students motivated enough to submit by the early date would read the comments and benefit; the vast majority who submitted at the "final" date didn't care about comments, and the prof didn't need to waste time on them.
Maybe I'll try that sometime. My policy now is that if students want to meet with me, I'll happily read anything they give me and discuss ways to improve it with them.