The media uses the term coffin as the object in which the Queen lies. A coffin is a very specific construction with six sides. A casket is a rectangular box.
Is the term being used interchangeable with casket in the UK, or is she in a coffin?
Usually in recent Western usage, a coffin is the older, pine-box enclosure used for a shrouded body alone. A casket is anything enclosing that, including, in some uncareful uses, up to the vault that encases the whole thing in an airtight underground package.
"Coffins" may have several layers, as in Egyptian burials, although technically, only the layer near the body ought to be called a coffin, at least from a Western perspective.
Coffins made of wood are biodegradable, which is why early (colonial Am., in particular) tall gravestones tip in the direction of the burial space: the stones are rooted by extensions below ground, and without the full pressure of the (now-rotten) coffin, the stone's equilibrium is easily disturbed.
Caskets, usually metal or having a more reinforced exterior, do not 'give way' so the stone's upright balance is reinforced and more stable.
However, except for editorial care about keeping the usage clear in analytical writing, the terms are often used interchangeably, or even inconsistently in different practices. I've done no work on African, South American, or Asian burial practices, so analysts of those cultures' objects may well use different distinctions, or have different structural elements to describe.
M.
Thanks, Mamselle. It's my impression that casket is used in the US and coffin in the UK. I do wonder why?
Because the Atlantic Ocean is a brick wall, not the fluid body of water everyone thinks it is....?
;--}
M.
Quote from: nebo113 on September 12, 2022, 08:36:43 AM
Thanks, Mamselle. It's my impression that casket is used in the US and coffin in the UK. I do wonder why?
We say 'coffin' in Canada, FWIW.
It could also be because of changes in the funerary industry that became a more developed institution in the US after the 1950s (see Jessica Mitford's book on this).
The older use was almost always "coffin," since molded caskets were a mid-to-late 19th c. trend that became stronger in the US (where there was more burial space available) vs. Euro/UK areas where limited land space sometimes meant that graves could be re-used once the decomposed wooden containers and their contents had truly become dust.
I've heard, but have not confirmed, that there were two- or three-century limits on gravesite re-use, in Europe and Old England, which would be consistent with that, as well.
This journal may track some of those issues as well:
https://credo.library.umass.edu/search?q=association+gravestone+markers&x=0&y=0
M.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 12, 2022, 09:20:29 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on September 12, 2022, 08:36:43 AM
Thanks, Mamselle. It's my impression that casket is used in the US and coffin in the UK. I do wonder why?
We say 'coffin' in Canada, FWIW.
Interesting, thank you.
Vampires sleep in coffins.
People get buried in caskets.
I've been reading about the deaths of previous queens. Queen Victoria wasn't embalmed and her coffin was quite smelly and so charcoal was used to offset this problem.
Then Elizabeth I - she died at age 44 and multiple stories say that her head and body exploded while in her coffin.
"During the period in question, Southwell reports how there was a loud 'crack' from the coffin as Elizabeth's 'body and head' broke open from the pressures of gases released as the corpse rotted."
https://thetudortravelguide.com/2019/07/20/the-death-and-burial-of-elizabeth-i/
Quote from: glowdart on September 15, 2022, 08:34:19 PM
Vampires sleep in coffins.
People get buried in caskets.
Ergo: the Queen is a vampire?
Quote from: Dismal on September 15, 2022, 10:31:26 PM
I've been reading about the deaths of previous queens. Queen Victoria wasn't embalmed and her coffin was quite smelly and so charcoal was used to offset this problem.
Then Elizabeth I - she died at age 44 and multiple stories say that her head and body exploded while in her coffin.
"During the period in question, Southwell reports how there was a loud 'crack' from the coffin as Elizabeth's 'body and head' broke open from the pressures of gases released as the corpse rotted."
https://thetudortravelguide.com/2019/07/20/the-death-and-burial-of-elizabeth-i/
Sez I, as both a tour guide and a gravestone researcher, you want to take most of what's written in those booklets with a bucket-and-a-hslf of salt.
It's among the frustrations of the work that people will say anything outrageous, and rush it into print or proclaim it loudly across the street when those of us who try to do responsible work have to take longer to be sure of our facts, and speak less flamboyantly, to behave more seemingly among the deceased.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on September 16, 2022, 05:46:18 AM
Quote from: Dismal on September 15, 2022, 10:31:26 PM
I've been reading about the deaths of previous queens. Queen Victoria wasn't embalmed and her coffin was quite smelly and so charcoal was used to offset this problem.
Then Elizabeth I - she died at age 44 and multiple stories say that her head and body exploded while in her coffin.
"During the period in question, Southwell reports how there was a loud 'crack' from the coffin as Elizabeth's 'body and head' broke open from the pressures of gases released as the corpse rotted."
https://thetudortravelguide.com/2019/07/20/the-death-and-burial-of-elizabeth-i/
Sez I, as both a tour guide and a gravestone researcher, you want to take most of what's written in those booklets with a bucket-and-a-hslf of salt.
It's among the frustrations of the work that people will say anything outrageous, and rush it into print or proclaim it loudly across the street when those of us who try to do responsible work have to take longer to be sure of our facts, and speak less flamboyantly, to behave more seemingly among the deceased.
M.
Yes, popular history's tendency to focus on the lurid--including stories that may or may not be true--can make problems for those who try to do serious work with history. I've always felt a need to try to get the facts right when talking about people who are no longer around to speak for themselves. I've found that so many Hollywood movies supposedly based on history gratuitously slander real-life figures by portraying them in ways that are at best debatable, at worst completely made up by writers who seem to have an axe to grind.
For what it is worth, in PhD school we were to appraise a piece of university property and we walked it and found an old cemetery. We didnt find it because of the stones, but the dips in the ground.
Modern day cemeteries promise 'perpetual care' of the grave site. To ensure this, they require that the body (in a coffin, casket or basket!) be in a cement lined box. That way, should the 'body container' fall apart, there wont be any dips in the cemetery that would require extra care or slow the work of mowing or trip anyone!
Exactly.
M.
Quote from: clean on September 18, 2022, 09:23:05 AM
For what it is worth, in PhD school we were to appraise a piece of university property and we walked it and found an old cemetery. We didnt find it because of the stones, but the dips in the ground.
Modern day cemeteries promise 'perpetual care' of the grave site. To ensure this, they require that the body (in a coffin, casket or basket!) be in a cement lined box. That way, should the 'body container' fall apart, there wont be any dips in the cemetery that would require extra care or slow the work of mowing or trip anyone!
We have a small family cemetery with few requirements as to type of burial. In fact, I could be wrapped in a shroud and buried in a hole dug by my cousin with a backhoe, if I chose. However, my kin are still buying expensive vaults for interment. Makes the local funeral home a lot of $$$$$!
I occasionally wonder about the coming time when my parents must be buried. They seem to have some sort of arrangements made, but have yet to share them with me. Making arrangements ahead of time is one of the best ways to curb the rapacity of the undertaker.
My parents had everything pre-paid except the coffin. When my parents died, I made the final arrangements. At the funeral home, they had a coffin showroom, with units starting $4000 CAD and running up to $8000 + accessories (why accessories, you might ask--it's to personalize the coffin). I asked for something cheaper, and wound up with a (rectangular) wooden box with lining for $1800. My parents were lovely, but frugal. There is no way they would have wanted the more expensive options.
Quote from: apl68 on September 19, 2022, 07:58:00 AM
I occasionally wonder about the coming time when my parents must be buried. They seem to have some sort of arrangements made, but have yet to share them with me. Making arrangements ahead of time is one of the best ways to curb the rapacity of the undertaker.
There are four of us; when my dad died, my mom did all the arrangements, my sister (who lives nearest) helping, apparently with some pre-planning, since my mom was the planner in the family.
When she died, 4 years later, it appeared that she'd done detailed planning with my sister and our younger bother, who also lived nearby and was also her executor, which she had told me in advance.
In both cases, there were odd, uncomfortable moments for me, who had been told who had the arrangements in hand, but not what some of them were.
They delayed my dad's service to the fourth day, so that our more distant cousins had time to attend. That was fine, but no-one told me until I had already booked my flights (I'd used up all my discretionary days visiting him a couple weeks before he died, expecting him to recover or at least rally for at bit; once there, I had to call my boss and ask for two more unpaid days off).
I only found out when the funeral director, to whom I'd applied for an advance of the obit to guarantee a bereavement discount on the flight, told me. Apparently, I was just supposed to 'know.'
Other, sillier little things happened with both their deaths that were upsetting because everyone else seemed to know things I'd never been told about.
I showed up at in wake for my dad in my black suit, only to find that my mom and sister had decided that a white or beige suit with light blue accessories was what they wanted, both for that and the funeral. Even my distant cousins had been told; I hadn't packed anything like that and had to go buy something the next AM.
So, it was fine that others had made the arrangements (although I could have helped with music choices early on, but wasn't asked until the end, resulting in a mixup of tunes for one hymn in the bulletin that was avoidable with more notice) but the lack of considerate communication was weird, bordering on alienating.
Both times, I was made to feel like a distant family member rather than one of the sibs , and I was at some points left wondering if that was intentional or just a product of carelessness.
In fact, I think I know a bit of what Meghan and Harry go through at times: it's hard to concentrate on mourning and grief when it seems like you're being jerked around, every now and again...
So, whatever you do, find out surreptitiously or directly if anyone else has been helping to make plans, and don't be too surprised if you've been sidelined if, as I am, you're the big bad (regionalist slur) who's gotten herself jumped up with extra degrees and publications and turned Democrat on them, or some such....
Perhaps you can avoid some of that pain by asking around in advance. I hope so.
M.
When my parents went, we were able to rent a wooden, typical looking outer shell. At the crematory, they remove the shell and send it back to the funeral home. The actual cremation was in a plywood liner inside the shell. It makes for a less expensive funeral, but ye gods, the pallbearers (I was one) had some heavy lifting to do.
The Queen's is lead lined, which is why it took 8 men to carry it.
Yes, I just saw that....
https://youtu.be/jajHTEDWMX8
M.