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Vaccination nation

Started by downer, December 23, 2020, 07:05:08 AM

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mamselle

Quote from: mamselle on January 25, 2021, 12:55:38 PM
It takes time, planning, zoning, money, and passing a bazillion inspections. Plus trained, knowledgeable production staff, supervisors, packaging and delivery teams.

One pharma out of the 5 I worked for as an EA had a production plant in-state, and it was 20 miles out of town. The other four were in different states, or overseas.

Many pharmas with US lab footprints are centered elsewhere. They'd have to get more clearances for international production from both their own countries, and ours, as well as patent-use clearances, which can take decades of litigation if there's a challenge.

It's not as simple as that.

M.

For all the above reasons, plus I forgot to mention the need for independent clinical trials which can take 2-3 years minimum, a rushed process doesn't fill me with confidence, and I had a oddly strong reaction to a smallpox vaccination many years ago, so I usually avoid them.

I've never had flu (knock on wood) and I barely go out, and go heavily PPD'd when I do, so I'll probably wait and see for quite awhile....live viri are too close to inoculation, whose uses and results I've studied historically, for my taste.

M. 
Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

Reprove not a scorner, lest they hate thee: rebuke the wise, and they will love thee.

Give instruction to the wise, and they will be yet wiser: teach the just, and they will increase in learning.

dismalist

QuoteI was talking to my opthamologist today who said he was getting the covid vaccine soon but was quite frightened to be taking a live vaccine that is untested for long term effects.

The vaccines available in the US [mRNA] do not contain live viruses. They don't even contain whole viruses.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2020/11/29/coronavirus-vaccines-difference/?sh=78d2f0f92ae6
That's not even wrong!
--Wolfgang Pauli

Ruralguy

And it was an MD who made those remarks...

dismalist

Quote from: Ruralguy on January 25, 2021, 02:56:00 PM
And it was an MD who made those remarks...

He was probably absent the day vaccines were studied in Medical School.

No surprise there.
That's not even wrong!
--Wolfgang Pauli

Puget

Quote from: downer on January 25, 2021, 02:26:38 PM
I was talking to my opthamologist today who said he was getting the covid vaccine soon but was quite frightened to be taking a live vaccine that is untested for long term effects.

We have seen large proportions of health care workers turn down the opportunity to take the vaccine.

Have you had conversations with people with medical training who are reluctant to take the vaccine? What have they said?

Find a new ophthalmologist-- this one apparently flunked reading comprehension let alone vaccine science. None of the vaccines is a live vaccine.

Quote from: mamselle on January 25, 2021, 02:31:05 PM

For all the above reasons, plus I forgot to mention the need for independent clinical trials which can take 2-3 years minimum, a rushed process doesn't fill me with confidence, and I had a oddly strong reaction to a smallpox vaccination many years ago, so I usually avoid them.


Please reconsider-- the trials took less time because (a) the science has advanced dramatically, and (b) the rate of infection in the control group was so high it didn't take long to show efficacy (much slower when there are low endemic levels in a population). Fast does not equal bad-- the testing has been rigorous. Do your part to get us to herd immunity.
"Never get separated from your lunch. Never get separated from your friends. Never climb up anything you can't climb down."
–Best Colorado Peak Hikes

jimbogumbo


apl68

Quote from: Puget on January 25, 2021, 03:39:10 PM
Quote from: downer on January 25, 2021, 02:26:38 PM
I was talking to my opthamologist today who said he was getting the covid vaccine soon but was quite frightened to be taking a live vaccine that is untested for long term effects.

We have seen large proportions of health care workers turn down the opportunity to take the vaccine.

Have you had conversations with people with medical training who are reluctant to take the vaccine? What have they said?

Find a new ophthalmologist-- this one apparently flunked reading comprehension let alone vaccine science. None of the vaccines is a live vaccine.

Quote from: mamselle on January 25, 2021, 02:31:05 PM

For all the above reasons, plus I forgot to mention the need for independent clinical trials which can take 2-3 years minimum, a rushed process doesn't fill me with confidence, and I had a oddly strong reaction to a smallpox vaccination many years ago, so I usually avoid them.


Please reconsider-- the trials took less time because (a) the science has advanced dramatically, and (b) the rate of infection in the control group was so high it didn't take long to show efficacy (much slower when there are low endemic levels in a population). Fast does not equal bad-- the testing has been rigorous. Do your part to get us to herd immunity.

I think part of the confusion is that there are live virus COVID vaccines in use--but NOT in the U.S. 

Development of the vaccines was speeded up because there was a lot of preliminary work already done in recent years on similar viruses.  They didn't have to start developing a vaccine from square one.
All we like sheep have gone astray
We have each turned to his own way
And the Lord has laid upon him the guilt of us all

downer

Quote from: apl68 on January 26, 2021, 07:15:58 AM
Quote from: Puget on January 25, 2021, 03:39:10 PM
Quote from: downer on January 25, 2021, 02:26:38 PM
I was talking to my opthamologist today who said he was getting the covid vaccine soon but was quite frightened to be taking a live vaccine that is untested for long term effects.

We have seen large proportions of health care workers turn down the opportunity to take the vaccine.

Have you had conversations with people with medical training who are reluctant to take the vaccine? What have they said?

Find a new ophthalmologist-- this one apparently flunked reading comprehension let alone vaccine science. None of the vaccines is a live vaccine.

Quote from: mamselle on January 25, 2021, 02:31:05 PM

For all the above reasons, plus I forgot to mention the need for independent clinical trials which can take 2-3 years minimum, a rushed process doesn't fill me with confidence, and I had a oddly strong reaction to a smallpox vaccination many years ago, so I usually avoid them.


Please reconsider-- the trials took less time because (a) the science has advanced dramatically, and (b) the rate of infection in the control group was so high it didn't take long to show efficacy (much slower when there are low endemic levels in a population). Fast does not equal bad-- the testing has been rigorous. Do your part to get us to herd immunity.

I think part of the confusion is that there are live virus COVID vaccines in use--but NOT in the U.S. 

Development of the vaccines was speeded up because there was a lot of preliminary work already done in recent years on similar viruses.  They didn't have to start developing a vaccine from square one.

My guy is from Israel. Are they using live virus COVID vaccines there?
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."—Sinclair Lewis

Kron3007

#53
Quote from: apl68 on January 26, 2021, 07:15:58 AM
Quote from: Puget on January 25, 2021, 03:39:10 PM
Quote from: downer on January 25, 2021, 02:26:38 PM
I was talking to my opthamologist today who said he was getting the covid vaccine soon but was quite frightened to be taking a live vaccine that is untested for long term effects.

We have seen large proportions of health care workers turn down the opportunity to take the vaccine.

Have you had conversations with people with medical training who are reluctant to take the vaccine? What have they said?

Find a new ophthalmologist-- this one apparently flunked reading comprehension let alone vaccine science. None of the vaccines is a live vaccine.

Quote from: mamselle on January 25, 2021, 02:31:05 PM

For all the above reasons, plus I forgot to mention the need for independent clinical trials which can take 2-3 years minimum, a rushed process doesn't fill me with confidence, and I had a oddly strong reaction to a smallpox vaccination many years ago, so I usually avoid them.


Please reconsider-- the trials took less time because (a) the science has advanced dramatically, and (b) the rate of infection in the control group was so high it didn't take long to show efficacy (much slower when there are low endemic levels in a population). Fast does not equal bad-- the testing has been rigorous. Do your part to get us to herd immunity.

I think part of the confusion is that there are live virus COVID vaccines in use--but NOT in the U.S. 

Development of the vaccines was speeded up because there was a lot of preliminary work already done in recent years on similar viruses.  They didn't have to start developing a vaccine from square one.

It's also largely that mRNA based vaccines can be designed and produced very quickly.  Moderna's vaccine was already designed in January, 2020, before Covid was even classified as a pandemic and only 2 days after the covid sequence was released.  Phase one clinical trials started within a month of this, which is unprecedented.  The other beauty is that this type of vaccine can be quickly re-designed to address new variants that are not controlled with the initial sequence.  Science is awesome! 

 


Puget

Good explainer on how different vaccines work here: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/health/how-covid-19-vaccines-work.html?action=click&state=default&region=hub&context=storyline_hub&module=styln-coronavirus-vaccines&variant=show&pgtype=LegacyCollection

Quote from: apl68 on January 26, 2021, 07:15:58 AM

I think part of the confusion is that there are live virus COVID vaccines in use--but NOT in the U.S. 

Where are you seeing live coronavirus vaccines being used? There are some *inactivated* coronavirus vaccines being used in othe parts of the world, and some vaccines that use a modified chimp adenovirus (which is harmless and can't replicate) to carry a fragment of spike protein DNA into cells (e.g., the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine), but I haven't seen any using a live (attenuated) coronavirus.

Quote from: downer on January 26, 2021, 07:25:01 AM
My guy is from Israel. Are they using live virus COVID vaccines there?

No, pretty sure they are using the same ones as in the US. Your guy is just an idiot I'm afraid. 
"Never get separated from your lunch. Never get separated from your friends. Never climb up anything you can't climb down."
–Best Colorado Peak Hikes

apl68

Quote from: Puget on January 26, 2021, 08:31:12 AM
Good explainer on how different vaccines work here: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/health/how-covid-19-vaccines-work.html?action=click&state=default&region=hub&context=storyline_hub&module=styln-coronavirus-vaccines&variant=show&pgtype=LegacyCollection

Quote from: apl68 on January 26, 2021, 07:15:58 AM

I think part of the confusion is that there are live virus COVID vaccines in use--but NOT in the U.S. 

Where are you seeing live coronavirus vaccines being used? There are some *inactivated* coronavirus vaccines being used in othe parts of the world, and some vaccines that use a modified chimp adenovirus (which is harmless and can't replicate) to carry a fragment of spike protein DNA into cells (e.g., the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine), but I haven't seen any using a live (attenuated) coronavirus.

I don't remember the article off the top of my head.  I might have confused an attenuated-virus vaccine under development with an inactivated-virus vaccine actually in service somewhere.
All we like sheep have gone astray
We have each turned to his own way
And the Lord has laid upon him the guilt of us all

spork

Quote from: Ruralguy on January 25, 2021, 02:56:00 PM
And it was an MD who made those remarks...

At least half of MDs were below average in medical school.
It's terrible writing, used to obfuscate the fact that the authors actually have nothing to say.

Kron3007

Quote from: spork on January 26, 2021, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on January 25, 2021, 02:56:00 PM
And it was an MD who made those remarks...

At least half of MDs were below average in medical school.

At least?

Cheerful

Quote from: Kron3007 on January 26, 2021, 01:49:32 PM
Quote from: spork on January 26, 2021, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on January 25, 2021, 02:56:00 PM
And it was an MD who made those remarks...

At least half of MDs were below average in medical school.

At least?

Below the median not below average, right?

spork

Would you prefer "at most"? It's the same thing. Especially if it's MDs who are calculating the statistic. Though at least half would probably fuck it up.
It's terrible writing, used to obfuscate the fact that the authors actually have nothing to say.