Vent or comment as needed.
Today: If you wake me up a third time in my aisle seat to get something silly out of your purse in the overhead bin, it's legit for me to finally just hand you the purse and point to the area below the seat in front of you where you're supposed to keep that $hit. Taking care of body functions is fine, but, jeesh, what you did was pretty damn rude.
And hey daddy, mommy, and two teen kids f*ckface family: Trying to run up the aisles from the back of the plane when the doors open to beat the rush is a total dick move, especially if the plane is on time (you ain't missing your connection, and people aren't gonna let you do that).
Customs and TSA people: Kick-ass job today keeping the lines moving in a professional and courteous manner. Much appreciated.
My blood pressure rises during deboarding when inconsiderate people rush to the front instead of waiting their turn.
I always wait patiently -- seated -- until the morons in a hurry, causing their own congestion, and hence delay, have finished torturing each other trying to get off the plane first.
The fundamental problem is the absence of property rights. The English solution is to have a queue. But how are places in the queue to be determined? Have an auction -- buy your place in line! :-)
If you do not want to wear your jacket in your seat, fine. But (beginning conjunction) if you do not want to wear your jacket take it off before you actually board the plane so we don't all have to wait in the aisle while you ease out of your jacket...delicately fold it...carefully place it on top of the luggage that you took your sweet time adjusting...then straighten your shirt...glance at all the people who are waiting for you...and then ease yourself into your seat.
When you are getting out of your seat, yes, I understand that the #$%!ing airlines pack us in like pencils in a box, but remember that someone is sitting in the seat in front of you and so you should not grab onto the seat in front of you to haul your dumba** up.
Don't blame the flight attendants for just doing their jobs.
And #@%! the airlines. You all suck equally.
Quote from: dismalist on June 26, 2022, 05:08:12 PM
The fundamental problem is the absence of property rights. The English solution is to have a queue. But how are places in the queue to be determined? Have an auction -- buy your place in line! :-)
If you have to pay extra to get on early, and to sit in a specific seat, why not also have a fee for getting out of the seat early? "We are now deplaning Titanium members only, everyone else, please remain seated."
Quote from: Hibush on June 26, 2022, 07:27:10 PM
Quote from: dismalist on June 26, 2022, 05:08:12 PM
The fundamental problem is the absence of property rights. The English solution is to have a queue. But how are places in the queue to be determined? Have an auction -- buy your place in line! :-)
If you have to pay extra to get on early, and to sit in a specific seat, why not also have a fee for getting out of the seat early? "We are now deplaning Titanium members only, everyone else, please remain seated."
Yo!
Why can't they board the plane starting with the back seats instead of the front seats?
I thought this was about people who refuse to wear masks when required and attack flight attendants.
M.
Quote from: Anselm on June 26, 2022, 08:18:27 PM
Why can't they board the plane starting with the back seats instead of the front seats?
They could and some do. I've seen it done. So congestion is reduced entering, but there is an existential exit problem. Barring a similar enforcement procedure, we're gonna get chaos.
People follow their own interests, but we gotta coordinate. If we all understood the consequences of our actions, we'd still need a mechanism, e.g. traffic lights. But then, it's a miracle we observe traffic lights at all. There are places on the planet where traffic lights are not observed. Such places tend to be poor. I don't go there.
Airlines could get better at using an equivalent of traffic lights. As they don't, I stay at the back of the bus until the hubbub is over.
Quote from: dismalist on June 26, 2022, 09:33:57 PM
Quote from: Anselm on June 26, 2022, 08:18:27 PM
Why can't they board the plane starting with the back seats instead of the front seats?
They could and some do. I've seen it done. So congestion is reduced entering, but there is an existential exit problem. Barring a similar enforcement procedure, we're gonna get chaos.
People follow their own interests, but we gotta coordinate. If we all understood the consequences of our actions, we'd still need a mechanism, e.g. traffic lights. But then, it's a miracle we observe traffic lights at all. There are places on the planet where traffic lights are not observed. Such places tend to be poor. I don't go there.
Airlines could get better at using an equivalent of traffic lights. As they don't, I stay at the back of the bus until the hubbub is over.
dismalist, you haven't driven in NYC, have you? Drivers also ignore stop signs; the preferred "traffic" lane for scooters, electric bikes, and bikes is the sidewalk.
Didn't mean to derail this thread, but just this weekend got honked at, had someone on my right make a left turn without any warning or signaling, and was almost run over twice by cars refusing to stop or even slow down at stop signs.
Quote from: Langue_doc on June 27, 2022, 09:42:58 AM
Quote from: dismalist on June 26, 2022, 09:33:57 PM
Quote from: Anselm on June 26, 2022, 08:18:27 PM
Why can't they board the plane starting with the back seats instead of the front seats?
They could and some do. I've seen it done. So congestion is reduced entering, but there is an existential exit problem. Barring a similar enforcement procedure, we're gonna get chaos.
People follow their own interests, but we gotta coordinate. If we all understood the consequences of our actions, we'd still need a mechanism, e.g. traffic lights. But then, it's a miracle we observe traffic lights at all. There are places on the planet where traffic lights are not observed. Such places tend to be poor. I don't go there.
Airlines could get better at using an equivalent of traffic lights. As they don't, I stay at the back of the bus until the hubbub is over.
dismalist, you haven't driven in NYC, have you? Drivers also ignore stop signs; the preferred "traffic" lane for scooters, electric bikes, and bikes is the sidewalk.
Didn't mean to derail this thread, but just this weekend got honked at, had someone on my right make a left turn without any warning or signaling, and was almost run over twice by cars refusing to stop or even slow down at stop signs.
Not in many, many years. I thought it was more civilized there than in the DC Metro area. I guess it isn't anymore.
What I did see a lot of was clogging the box, which is the same problem as getting off an airplane.
The very few times I've flown, I've never witnessed any rude or foolish behavior by fellow passengers. My last flight to date was in 2007. Things evidently weren't as bad back then.
My biggest problem in flying has always been serious earaches. On a couple of flights I've been in pain throughout the flight, and could hardly hear until the next day. It hasn't happened every time I fly, but it's part of why I wouldn't mind it if I never had a chance to fly again.
Quote from: apl68 on June 27, 2022, 10:29:24 AM
My last flight to date was in 2007. Things evidently weren't as bad back then.
I've been flying since 2000. The passengers have not changed, the conditions on the airliners have changed.
On a transatlantic flight inbound, a long, long time ago, some dork sitting in front of me leaned his seat back fairly forcefully. Unfortunately, my knees were pinned and I could not move them. Dork gets up, turns around, and starts yelling at me to get my knees out! I yelled back. Stewardess came by and told me to get my knees out, or else. I explained why I couldn't. Dork moves seat forward, I get my knees out, and he leans back happily.
Not too much later, on a flight from DC to Chicago, same thing happens. Instead of resisting, because I had meanwhile learned that victimhood pays off, I started screaming out in mock agony, ow, ow, ow. Dork II jumps up and starts apologizing profusely. All the passengers turned to my screams, but they were looking at him. Did he ever get evil eyes!
The problem is similar to getting off the plane, but not identical: Who owns the space above my knees? Apparently the guy sitting before me! The advent of Premium Economy transatlatlantically has more or less solved this particular problem by allowing us to buy more space above our knees!
Quote from: Anselm on June 26, 2022, 08:18:27 PM
Why can't they board the plane starting with the back seats instead of the front seats?
That is actually very slow. The fastest approaches are the ones that have as many people as possible in the process of getting in their seats. The rear-first approach has only a few people getting in their seat and a lot of people standing in the aisle, not getting in their seat, and eventually a lot of empty aisle at the back.
Surprisingly one of the fastest is to have seating be nearly random, perhaps with a weighting of window seats at the beginning. That pattern means that people are getting into their seats along the whole length of the plane. Another is not to assign seats, as Southwest does, and it goes very fast.
One of the airlines' objectives is to stroke the egos of the big spenders, and meeting that objective definitely slows boarding. (And deplaning as well if they adopt my scheme upthread.)
One some planes (maybe it on Easyjet in Europe) you can get out both the front and the back. Of course, that requires going down stairs to the ground and walking to the terminal outside, rather than being protected from the elements.
I recently learned that planes could be more than 50% lighter if they didn't have passenger windows. Will an airline ever offer that option for a lower price?
I've flown a few times in the last year. I can't say that I've had any terrible experiences, though I am miffed when I'm told to be there 3 hours before the flight leaves and I get through to the gates in about 20 mins. However, that is better than waiting in the security lines for a horrendously long time. I generally suspect a plot to make me spend more time at the gate in the hope that I will buy some item of food or drink at twice the regular price. But I bring my own snacks.
A friend posted this story recently about an airplane seat innovation (double decker seating!): http://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/chaise-longue-double-decker-airplane-seat/index.html Anyone think this is an appealing solution to seating issues? I wouldn't trust it from a safety perspective, in any case. At least, I wouldn't want to have to wriggle my way out from a lower seat if something bad were happening.
As for flight annoyances, I had some jackass yelling at me on a jam-packed late-night flight out of DFW that I couldn't put my suitcase in the overhead bin because he had a couple bottles of liquor from the duty-free shop up there. It isn't okay to take up a huge part of a bin on a packed flight for a couple bottles. And, I couldn't see his stupid bottles from the aisle because I am not a giant. I honestly thought he was going to jump out of his seat and hit me. I wasn't in a particularly good mood myself, having had to run through that airport from my previous flight and having barely made it before doors closed. And I wasn't going to get home until nearly 3 AM. And it was hot. But, somehow a street fight did not break out. I'm not sure I could say that these days with the seemingly worsening tempers on flights.
Yeah, it was up to him to protect them/cushion them/whatever.
And then wake up to the fact that he wasn't the only person on the plane, probably.
Hope you did get home OK.
M.
Quote from: dismalist on June 26, 2022, 05:08:12 PM
I always wait patiently -- seated -- until the morons in a hurry, causing their own congestion, and hence delay, have finished torturing each other trying to get off the plane first.
The fundamental problem is the absence of property rights. The English solution is to have a queue. But how are places in the queue to be determined? Have an auction -- buy your place in line! :-)
Or mosh pit.
I hope to have no contributions to this thread on the 4th, when (1) I have to catch a 6 AM flight from BOS to SLC, while (2) simultaneously my 93 year old grandmother takes a flight from TUC to SLC, where (3) if neither of us is delayed we meet up so I can keep her company, wrangle her carry-ons and fetch her refreshments, before (4) we fly together to SUN, where (5) my uncle who will have arrived from yet another destination a few days before will pick us up for the drive to our mountain cabin, where (6) we will be joined by my parents who will fly from SEA to BOI and drive up from there. Why yes, this did take about a week of family texting and zoom calls to sort out. It's like a bank capper movie, except instead of robing a bank we're attempting a family vacation.
Quote from: Hibush on June 28, 2022, 08:32:54 AM
Surprisingly one of the fastest is to have seating be nearly random, perhaps with a weighting of window seats at the beginning. That pattern means that people are getting into their seats along the whole length of the plane. Another is not to assign seats, as Southwest does, and it goes very fast.
I think the Southwest system goes fast precisely because it is "nearly random, perhaps with a weighting of window seats at the beginning" (though isles are also probably weighted at the beginning, which is suboptimal). I remember reading an article where they had done a controlled experimental simulation and the absolute fastest was window, then middle then isle, with a random order within each, but of course that doesn't work in the real world with people traveling together (although you could fix that to a large extent by having parties board together in the earliest category for which they had adjacent seats). No one will do this though because then they couldn't sell early boarding as a perk of rewards program status and "premium economy" seats.
Outside of attendance at certain distanced gravesides, I no longer think that I will ever be boarding an airplane again. With luck, I will die before those others do and the need for air travel (save with my angelic wings) moot.
It used to be rather eccentric to never fly, especially if it wasn't due to finances.
More often these days I hear people saying they won't fly either due to the anticipated unpleasantness or possible dangerousness of the trip, or because of the carbon footprint. There's even now moral condemnation of those who fly.
I'm guessing though that it won't be long before the numbers of people flying are back to pre-COVID levels. There are strong incentives to see the world and visit family. Even corporate travel is steadily returning to its old levels.
Quote from: downer on June 29, 2022, 02:59:26 AM
It used to be rather eccentric to never fly, especially if it wasn't due to finances.
More often these days I hear people saying they won't fly either due to the anticipated unpleasantness or possible dangerousness of the trip, or because of the carbon footprint. There's even now moral condemnation of those who fly.
I'm guessing though that it won't be long before the numbers of people flying are back to pre-COVID levels. There are strong incentives to see the world and visit family. Even corporate travel is steadily returning to its old levels.
For me it's mostly a matter of finances (My flying has always been school or work-related, plus one short-term foreign mission trip), and anticipated unpleasantness. I've never been afraid to fly. Flying has always seemed fascinating to me in principle. Private flying has always been out of the question for me, though--that finance thing again. Even if I were rich, I can't see well enough to be a pilot. And I've never known any rich people that I could fly with. Well, there was that one cousin of Dad's who had the Cessna, but I never got a chance to go up with him.
Getting moralistic about people who fly a lot doesn't seem very fair, but it
would be better for the environment, etc. if there was less flying going on. As with so many popular diversions, those who have the means to do an exceptional amount of discretionary air travel would be doing the environment a favor if they were content to fly less and put the savings to other causes that could use it.
Flying is much safer than driving or really any other method of travel. Carbon footprint is an issue, but would 200 people driving across the country instead of flying be better (maybe so, I'm sure there have been studies on this)?
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on June 29, 2022, 08:14:45 AM
Flying is much safer than driving or really any other method of travel. Carbon footprint is an issue, but would 200 people driving across the country instead of flying be better (maybe so, I'm sure there have been studies on this)?
It's an interesting question. There are a lot of variables -- on the whole, planes seem to be emit more CO2 per person traveling than cars. Not however if a plane is full and a car has just one person in it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49349566
The contrast to be making could be traveling vs not traveling at all. Staying home reduces your footprint.
Quote from: downer on June 29, 2022, 08:25:05 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on June 29, 2022, 08:14:45 AM
Flying is much safer than driving or really any other method of travel. Carbon footprint is an issue, but would 200 people driving across the country instead of flying be better (maybe so, I'm sure there have been studies on this)?
It's an interesting question. There are a lot of variables -- on the whole, planes seem to be emit more CO2 per person traveling than cars. Not however if a plane is full and a car has just one person in it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49349566
The contrast to be making could be traveling vs not traveling at all. Staying home reduces your footprint.
A sufficiently high carbon tax would solve the decision problem of how often to travel, how far to travel, and by what mode [plane, car, bike, on foot] to travel.
I did just hear a news story about how alcohol sales were suspended for Covid reasons and are now being resumed so we can expect more idiotic behavior on planes.
Quote from: Anselm on June 29, 2022, 12:42:36 PM
I did just hear a news story about how alcohol sales were suspended for Covid reasons and are now being resumed so we can expect more idiotic behavior on planes.
A sufficiently high alcohol tax would solve that problem, too.
Come to think of it, higher excise taxes on many things would go a long way to solve lots of public problems. :-)
There was a quite famous Canadian economist, Harry Johnson, heydey from the '50's to the mid '70's [when he died after multiple strokes], perhaps the world's first trans-atlantic commuter, and an alcoholic. He would get a bottle of whiskey at duty-free and take it on board the plane. When the stewardess came around with drinks, he would ask for one -- to get the glass! Then he would settle in, and write a paper while sipping his whiskey. The bottle was empty upon arrival. No, his later papers were not as good as his early papers!
Quote from: dismalist on June 29, 2022, 12:53:17 PM
Quote from: Anselm on June 29, 2022, 12:42:36 PM
I did just hear a news story about how alcohol sales were suspended for Covid reasons and are now being resumed so we can expect more idiotic behavior on planes.
A sufficiently high alcohol tax would solve that problem, too.
Come to think of it, higher excise taxes on many things would go a long way to solve lots of public problems. :-)
There was a quite famous Canadian economist, Harry Johnson, heydey from the '50's to the mid '70's [when he died after multiple strokes], perhaps the world's first trans-atlantic commuter, and an alcoholic. He would get a bottle of whiskey at duty-free and take it on board the plane. When the stewardess came around with drinks, he would ask for one -- to get the glass! Then he would settle in, and write a paper while sipping his whiskey. The bottle was empty upon arrival. No, his later papers were not as good as his early papers!
That actually sounds like a pretty good flight, however.
Quote from: downer on June 28, 2022, 09:52:47 AM
I recently learned that planes could be more than 50% lighter if they didn't have passenger windows. Will an airline ever offer that option for a lower price?
Emirates is one airline that floated this idea, suggesting that video screens could be used instead of windows. One of the few remaining joys of flying is looking out the window, so I am not a fan. Per some article I just read, the advantage of a truly windowless plane is that the structure of the fuselage would be less complex without window openings. If you want to know what poorly designed windows (or, to be more fair, windows designed before the stresses of pressurizing and depressurizing cabins were well understood), look into the fate of the de Havilland Comet. I do like planes that have cameras that you can call up on the entertainment screen, and if I were in charge there'd be all kinds of cameras for cool views. Who needs an inflight movie when you can see the cool views the pilots get?
The idea that the airlines, once they implemented such a plane, would lower fares because their costs have declined is fantasy. Airlines will charge what they can. Case in point: Fares are very high this summer, due both to higher fuel costs and insanely pent-up demand. I was thinking of popping up to Alaska this summer, but at $1200 to Anchorage r/t, I'll wait. Last I checked, it's a lot cheaper in October. Downside: It's October. Even then, inflation adjusted airfares now are still no where near what they were when I was a lad growing up in Alaska in the early 1970s.
Flying is sometimes frustrating, and it used to terrify me. Now I quite like it, I find airports fascinating for people watching, and once the plane is in the air and I can look at the window (if it's not cloudy/dark) I find it really relaxing. It's the getting on and off that's stressful. And while the golden age of steaks, smoking, and nonstop booze (and remarkably frequent crashes) are behind us, I will note that a six-hour cross country flight beats the hell out of riding the train cross country (I've done that three times, and it's really fun, but it's slow) or driving cross-country (ditto) or, honestly, crossing in a covered wagon. If our biggest problem is the lack of seat recline and that our favorite brand of gin isn't on offer, we really don't have much of a problem at all.
Quote from: Tee_Bee on June 29, 2022, 07:32:46 PM
Quote from: downer on June 28, 2022, 09:52:47 AM
I recently learned that planes could be more than 50% lighter if they didn't have passenger windows. Will an airline ever offer that option for a lower price?
Emirates is one airline that floated this idea, suggesting that video screens could be used instead of windows. One of the few remaining joys of flying is looking out the window, so I am not a fan. Per some article I just read, the advantage of a truly windowless plane is that the structure of the fuselage would be less complex without window openings. If you want to know what poorly designed windows (or, to be more fair, windows designed before the stresses of pressurizing and depressurizing cabins were well understood), look into the fate of the de Havilland Comet. I do like planes that have cameras that you can call up on the entertainment screen, and if I were in charge there'd be all kinds of cameras for cool views. Who needs an inflight movie when you can see the cool views the pilots get?
The idea that the airlines, once they implemented such a plane, would lower fares because their costs have declined is fantasy. Airlines will charge what they can. Case in point: Fares are very high this summer, due both to higher fuel costs and insanely pent-up demand. I was thinking of popping up to Alaska this summer, but at $1200 to Anchorage r/t, I'll wait. Last I checked, it's a lot cheaper in October. Downside: It's October. Even then, inflation adjusted airfares now are still no where near what they were when I was a lad growing up in Alaska in the early 1970s.
Flying is sometimes frustrating, and it used to terrify me. Now I quite like it, I find airports fascinating for people watching, and once the plane is in the air and I can look at the window (if it's not cloudy/dark) I find it really relaxing. It's the getting on and off that's stressful. And while the golden age of steaks, smoking, and nonstop booze (and remarkably frequent crashes) are behind us, I will note that a six-hour cross country flight beats the hell out of riding the train cross country (I've done that three times, and it's really fun, but it's slow) or driving cross-country (ditto) or, honestly, crossing in a covered wagon. If our biggest problem is the lack of seat recline and that our favorite brand of gin isn't on offer, we really don't have much of a problem at all.
A lovely, lovely post, tee bee!
However to clear up a thing or two
-In competition, hell even in monopoly, when costs fall, prices fall.
-Temporary demand increases, such as in summers, will raise prices, and temporary demand declines, such as in winters, will lower prices.
More important,
-trains are [maybe once were] the best way to travel, ocean liners aside, and most important
-the biggest problem is really that my favorite wine is not on offer! :-)
Quote from: dismalist on June 29, 2022, 07:48:46 PM
A lovely, lovely post, tee bee!
However to clear up a thing or two
-In competition, hell even in monopoly, when costs fall, prices fall.
Thanks! I guess I should have been clearer. I think airlines are always finding opportunities to cut costs to improve margins, and that demand may have more of an influence on fare pricing that the underlying cost structure. What I have in mind--and this isn't a great analogy--is the halcyon days of the early 1970s, when the 747 came on line and the "hump" was given over to piano bars, discos, rumpus rooms, or whatever, and the airlines were selling the plane as some sort of airborne ocean liner. That lasted until they realized you can just jam in more seats--well, maybe not jam, since the hump is often where first or business is located, but still. And the decreasing seat pitch (most coach seats in the 1970s were about 35 or 36 inches, now it's more like 30), lack of meal service, etc. means that they're doing what they can to beef up their margins. As they probably should, because, given the last twenty five years, if I ran an airline I'd make money when I can, sock away cash, and wait for the next huge downturn.
My entire argument is probably contradicted by the fact that, adjusted for inflation, flying is cheaper now than it was in the 1970s.
Quote-the biggest problem is really that my favorite wine is not on offer! :-)
My wife and you would be on the very same page!
I need to travel between Europe and North America in August.
Cheapest one-way ticket: $245 (up from 2 weeks ago, when it was $205), for 4! flights in 37 hours, which includes changing airports in Oslo and New York.
Cheapest one-way ticket that doesn't include a leg on a budget airline is about $700 (without luggage), yet the cheapest return ticket is only $800. I have never understood why the return flight adds so little to the costs.
Also a note: my attitude towards flying changed tremendously the first time I got a credit card that offered airport lounge access. Having a quiet place to sit and work, with "free" snacks, makes a world of difference, primarily because there is usually a table for my laptop and I'm not balancing it on my knees.
AR.
Most of the airports I've been in recently have charging stations where you can sit and work on a laptop on a surface. It's not necessarily quiet, but I generally have my earbuds in so that's not an issue.
One airport I was at was all table seating, with a screen for ordering food and drink at each seat. I'm not sure it is a great business model since I didn't see anyone using those screens to order anything. But it was nice to have a table.
Free airport wifi seems close to universal now, which is an important improvement.
A table makes such a difference to my productivity that I will pay airport rates for a beverage I don't really want/need, if I have to, in order to get an hour or two of such efficiency. But yes, some airports do have good spaces to sit that don't cost anything, and I really appreciate those!
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on June 30, 2022, 03:31:20 AM
I need to travel between Europe and North America in August.
..
Cheapest one-way ticket that doesn't include a leg on a budget is about $700 (without luggage), yet the cheapest return ticket is only $800. I have never understood why the return flight adds so little to the costs.
irlin
...
Rule-of-thumb: If there's something you don''t understand about pricing, it's probably price discrimination!
It's about revenue. Airline is getting $800 for the round trip. Who travels one way? Business types who can't commit to a return date. They are paying an extra $300 for the privilege [$700 instead of $800/2 = $400].
I sometimes travel with one way tickets when I'm doing a loop, such as New York -- Seattle -- LA -- New York. But often the cost makes that prohibitively expensive compared to two trips, NY -- Seattle and NY -- LA.
If you're booking business travel, you're usually booking through a dedicated agency like Carlson Wagon-Lit, which plays all those one-ways off against each other internally (i.e., within your own company's account) or externally (i.e., their universe of clients).
They also do open-jaw arrangements where they sell back the other halves to someone else.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on June 30, 2022, 10:56:57 AM
If you're booking business travel, you're usually booking through a dedicated agency like Carlson Wagon-Lit, which plays all those one-ways off against each other internally (i.e., within your own company's account) or externally (i.e., their universe of clients).
They also do open-jaw arrangements where they sell back the other halves to someone else.
M.
Called "arbitrage"! :-)
Hard to do with names on the tickets, though. Airlines must be cooperating. This is good: It means competition is getting intenser.
Hotels: Quit making your showers so f*cking complicated. I'm taking a shower, not flying the damn space shuttle! And vent the space, so I'm not sweating while toweling off. Jeepers.
Quote from: fishbrains on March 14, 2023, 04:11:31 AM
Hotels: Quit making your showers so f*cking complicated. I'm taking a shower, not flying the damn space shuttle! And vent the space, so I'm not sweating while toweling off. Jeepers.
Or uncomplicated. A year or so ago, I was given a room with a shower designed for people in wheelchairs, which resulted in the bathroom floor being flooded. When I called the front desk, they sent an employee from housekeeping, unmasked, with a bunch of towels, with the suggestion that I could use those towels to wipe down the floor, and that I could also ask for more towels to wipe down the floor during the rest of my stay. I made sure that the employee wiped down the floor, and checked out a day earlier. This was not a budget-friendly hotel. Later that year, in another city, I had to prop the sliding door shut with one foot, so that the door remained shut while taking a shower! This too, was most definitely not a budget-friendly hotel, but I didn't have other complaints, so have stayed there at least a couple of times after that experience.
Is there a female equivalent term to "man-spreading" on an airplane? The woman next to me couldn't really fit her bag under the seat in front of her (even though there was plenty of room in the overheads), so she kept trying to put her leg around her bag and under the seat in front of me. I kept nudging her foot back. An odd, two-hour game of Footsie there.
What the f*ck is wrong with people?
I've come to hate flying Southwest. The hunger games system of boarding was always annoying, but my irritation jumped to another level last time, when several people who boarded in Group A tried to save seats for their family members who were waiting at the gate.
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on June 08, 2023, 05:03:09 PM
I've come to hate flying Southwest. The hunger games system of boarding was always annoying, but my irritation jumped to another level last time, when several people who boarded in Group A tried to save seats for their family members who were waiting at the gate.
Interesting. I haven't flown in years, so I googled Southwest boarding procedure. It calls itself "open seating". In different words, "free seating choice". Of course, nothing is free. The A,B, etc stuff can merely limit the competition for seating to various groups of people.
Such will always be gameable and gamed.
The solution is to auction off the seats! :-)
My uni now okays Business Class fares for flights over 8 hours (assuming you have the money in your various research accounts). I am here to say that the Polaris lounges are very heaven. There are six of them in the U.S., and they're for Business class transatlantic flyers in United. Huge lovely buffets of free food. (Unlike the usual United Club lounges, which have soup and piddly little snacks.) Not crowded. Nap rooms!
At least the recent holiday seems to have gone pretty smoothly overall with air transportation.
Quote from: Hegemony on June 08, 2023, 06:51:07 PM
My uni now okays Business Class fares for flights over 8 hours (assuming you have the money in your various research accounts). I am here to say that the Polaris lounges are very heaven. There are six of them in the U.S., and they're for Business class transatlantic flyers in United. Huge lovely buffets of free food. (Unlike the usual United Club lounges, which have soup and piddly little snacks.) Not crowded. Nap rooms!
The United Credit card comes with free checked bags and two lounge passes per year, for anyone who can't get a Business flight--but I've heard the Polaris lounges are worlds better.
AR.
Quote from: Hegemony on June 08, 2023, 06:51:07 PM
My uni now okays Business Class fares for flights over 8 hours (assuming you have the money in your various research accounts). I am here to say that the Polaris lounges are very heaven. There are six of them in the U.S., and they're for Business class transatlantic flyers in United. Huge lovely buffets of free food. (Unlike the usual United Club lounges, which have soup and piddly little snacks.) Not crowded. Nap rooms!
American has done away with First, so Flagship Business is now their top tier — take advantage of that before your institution figures that out! I'm flying it next month for a conference (alas, without school funds, but it'll be way better than Economy).
I have found with Southwest that I prefer to board in about mid- group B. That way I get to have some level of say as to who sits next to me. I had a flight once where I boarded in Group A and then a drunk guy ended up claiming the seat next to me. I've also seen on many Southwest flights that the A1-15 "pay" slots are often empty- so early section B is even earlier than you would think.
I have an eight hour flight for an international move in August. I am dreading it. Masks no longer required. COVID can damage every organ system in the body, including the brain and heart. I'll wear a respirator but there's no denying masks work better when the majority of people wear them properly. Trying to figure out how to go ten plus hours without food or water (considering when I have to get through security plus get through customs, get luggage, etc.) Also not happy that I'll have to risk my life by taking my mask off just to be identified. Yes, risking my life. Even a asymptomatic case of COVID can cause a deadly heart attack or stroke. I hate people right now. I hate that public health has become politicized.
MarathonRunner, I hear you. For what it's worth, I've flown extensively in the last two years, including four ten-hour overseas flights, as well as many cross-country flights. And I'm immune-compromised. I always wear my N95, and I've never gotten Covid. The first few flights, I tried to tough it out and not eat, but since then I do take my mask off for about 10 minutes or so to eat. I've read that once the plane is in the air, its filtration system is very efficient. In any case, I've remained Covid-free. Covid is contagious, but it's not magical. The first few times I was a bundle of anxiety, thinking that being around unmasked people for many hours was a sure route to Covid and death. But although it's prudent to be cautious, I think it's safe to relax one's fright. If contagion on the plane were certain, people would be coming off planes with everyone infected, and the hospitals would be heaving with patients. But basically everyone (except us) is unmasked and partying hearty, and the hospitalization statistics remain on the low side.
As I say, it's wise to be masked, and wise to be cautious. I certainly will be. But I think after a couple of flights from which you emerge as healthy as you started, the anxiety levels will go down.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on June 15, 2023, 11:30:44 AMI have an eight hour flight for an international move in August. I am dreading it. Masks no longer required. COVID can damage every organ system in the body, including the brain and heart. I'll wear a respirator but there's no denying masks work better when the majority of people wear them properly. Trying to figure out how to go ten plus hours without food or water (considering when I have to get through security plus get through customs, get luggage, etc.) Also not happy that I'll have to risk my life by taking my mask off just to be identified. Yes, risking my life. Even a asymptomatic case of COVID can cause a deadly heart attack or stroke. I hate people right now. I hate that public health has become politicized.
In regards to removing your mask to be identified: it will be quick, and the person closest to you will likely be behind plexiglass. All of the passport control agents I interacted with on my most recent trip seemed to be understanding when I was slow/forgetful to pull down my mask.
Also, do not sacrifice your hydration! Dehydration is a very serious health risk too! Bring a straw so that you can drink while still wearing your mask.
Just booked some flights, which I always find stressful. Idiots to come in August.
Recently encountered a gaggle of idiots on the supply side of travel -- British Airways IT designers and ground staff at Heathrow. Get notified that I can check in online, which I can't, because the website and app say my birthday is incorrect, which it isn't. At departure terminal, kiosks aren't working. Stand in very slow line for checking bags at station B1 to get my boarding pass, even though I did not have bags to check. Got my boarding pass, not a word about my birthday. Directed to proceed to security, where the initial turnstile scanner says my boarding pass is invalid. The one human employee there, checking credentials of flight crews but not ordinary passengers, says I have to go back out. Returning to the check-in area, I'm told I need to go to station B1. The next BA employee I snag says I need to go to B2. A third employee says C1. Since I received my boarding pass originally at B1, I decide to go to C1 -- where I see many of the same passengers I saw initially at B1. After slowly making my way to the head of the line at C1, still not needing to check any bags, the BA employee scans my passport and says there are no errors in my boarding pass, but she prints out a second copy. Again I am directed to proceed to security, but a different entry point. There the turnstile scans my second boarding pass no problem. And it gets scanned another time at a second turnstile. So I am finally allowed to go through the metal detector.
And then there are some who have come to believe that travel is immoral and feel too guilty to enjoy it any longer:
https://lithub.com/snapshots-of-the-end-of-travel-on-trying-to-enter-a-personal-no-fly-zone?utm_source=pocket_discover_travel
Quote from: fishbrains on June 08, 2023, 12:42:57 PMIs there a female equivalent term to "man-spreading" on an airplane? The woman next to me couldn't really fit her bag under the seat in front of her (even though there was plenty of room in the overheads), so she kept trying to put her leg around her bag and under the seat in front of me. I kept nudging her foot back. An odd, two-hour game of Footsie there.
What the f*ck is wrong with people?
Had this happen to me again. Still trying to figure out what the phobia is about where people won't put bags in the overhead space. No one's getting out any faster.
I'm someone who avoids the overhead bins on planes. It's for two reasons. One reason is that they are always already full by the time I get on the plane. The other reason is because I am physically tiny and can barely reach the overhead bins at all, much less heave a suitcase into one or pull one out. I'd rather not have to depend on the kindness of strangers for this, and I'd rather not end up with luggage falling on my head, or someone else's head. Instead, I have a backpack that fits neatly under a plane seat and won't bother anyone else.
Quote from: Larimar on June 29, 2023, 03:23:12 PMI'm someone who avoids the overhead bins on planes. It's for two reasons. One reason is that they are always already full by the time I get on the plane. The other reason is because I am physically tiny and can barely reach the overhead bins at all, much less heave a suitcase into one or pull one out. I'd rather not have to depend on the kindness of strangers for this, and I'd rather not end up with luggage falling on my head, or someone else's head. Instead, I have a backpack that fits neatly under a plane seat and won't bother anyone else.
For 99% of the flights I've taken, that's what I do. The only times I use the overhead bin is when moving and needing to take our cats on the plane with us. Their carriers go under the seat in front of us, and our other piece of carry-on goes in the overhead bin.
I am also short, and elderly, so heaving a bag into an overhead bin is not going to happen. I also hate being encumbered with luggage in the airport while waiting for my plane. Going to a restaurant? The ladies' room? You have to wheel the darned thing around with you. No. I always check my bags and take a carry-on that fits neatly under the seat.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on June 15, 2023, 11:30:44 AMI have an eight hour flight for an international move in August. I am dreading it. Masks no longer required. COVID can damage every organ system in the body, including the brain and heart. I'll wear a respirator but there's no denying masks work better when the majority of people wear them properly. Trying to figure out how to go ten plus hours without food or water (considering when I have to get through security plus get through customs, get luggage, etc.) Also not happy that I'll have to risk my life by taking my mask off just to be identified. Yes, risking my life. Even a asymptomatic case of COVID can cause a deadly heart attack or stroke. I hate people right now. I hate that public health has become politicized.
I don't know anything about your personal health situation, so I want to be careful. That said.
1. The risk of catching covid is cumulative, so pulling down your mask for 5 seconds for identification is not dramatically increasing your risk of infection.
2. Airports and even airplanes are pretty well ventilated spaces. Otherwise they would smell terrible all the time.
3. Long Covid is very real and a concern, but some perspective is needed. It's really hard to quantify the toll of something when it involves a lot of disparate symptoms ranging from mild to disabling. Regardless, according to the CDC, most people with long covid are experiencing fairly minor symptoms that they report aren't having a significant effect on their lives-stuff like lingering coughs-annoying rather than debilitating. Heart attacks and strokes are concerning, but also pretty rare. As you'd expect, both the minor and serious symptoms do seem to decrease and often completely go away over time. It also appears that the percentage of people getting long covid is going down-which probably is about vaccination and prior infection.
4. Again, I want to be sensitive, because I don't know what your health situation is. However, some of the language you are using suggests that you might need to recalibrate your ideas about risk. It's helped me to think of covid as something that isn't going away as a problem anytime soon. So, it's worth thinking about how I want to deal with the risk in the long term and how to balance that risk against other factors. Pulling down your mask for 5 seconds is "risking your life" in the same way that driving to work is. Technically an accurate description, but probably not a particularly healthy way to think about your life.
Quote from: Larimar on June 29, 2023, 03:23:12 PMI have a backpack that fits neatly under a plane seat and won't bother anyone else.
That last sentence is the key to it all.
Quote from: fishbrains on July 04, 2023, 01:20:21 PMQuote from: Larimar on June 29, 2023, 03:23:12 PMI have a backpack that fits neatly under a plane seat and won't bother anyone else.
That last sentence is the key to it all.
Absolutely! I've always done the same.
The source of the problem is that extra space is free to the traveler once he has paid his ticket. This is an example of bundling, like football with Physics in colleges, a result of too little competition.
It is easy to imagine how unbundling would work, as the technology is already available. Charge for the whole flight by total weight, passenger plus baggage, and publish those rates. Take your stuff and jump on the baggage scale. Bingo -- a ticket price is printed out!
Quote from: Caracal on July 04, 2023, 04:26:17 AMQuote from: MarathonRunner on June 15, 2023, 11:30:44 AMI have an eight hour flight for an international move in August. I am dreading it. Masks no longer required. COVID can damage every organ system in the body, including the brain and heart. I'll wear a respirator but there's no denying masks work better when the majority of people wear them properly. Trying to figure out how to go ten plus hours without food or water (considering when I have to get through security plus get through customs, get luggage, etc.) Also not happy that I'll have to risk my life by taking my mask off just to be identified. Yes, risking my life. Even a asymptomatic case of COVID can cause a deadly heart attack or stroke. I hate people right now. I hate that public health has become politicized.
I don't know anything about your personal health situation, so I want to be careful. That said.
1. The risk of catching covid is cumulative, so pulling down your mask for 5 seconds for identification is not dramatically increasing your risk of infection.
2. Airports and even airplanes are pretty well ventilated spaces. Otherwise they would smell terrible all the time.
3. Long Covid is very real and a concern, but some perspective is needed. It's really hard to quantify the toll of something when it involves a lot of disparate symptoms ranging from mild to disabling. Regardless, according to the CDC, most people with long covid are experiencing fairly minor symptoms that they report aren't having a significant effect on their lives-stuff like lingering coughs-annoying rather than debilitating. Heart attacks and strokes are concerning, but also pretty rare. As you'd expect, both the minor and serious symptoms do seem to decrease and often completely go away over time. It also appears that the percentage of people getting long covid is going down-which probably is about vaccination and prior infection.
4. Again, I want to be sensitive, because I don't know what your health situation is. However, some of the language you are using suggests that you might need to recalibrate your ideas about risk. It's helped me to think of covid as something that isn't going away as a problem anytime soon. So, it's worth thinking about how I want to deal with the risk in the long term and how to balance that risk against other factors. Pulling down your mask for 5 seconds is "risking your life" in the same way that driving to work is. Technically an accurate description, but probably not a particularly healthy way to think about your life.
Covid is still with us as anyone who caught it recently can testify. An acquaintance despite all the shots, came down with it twice in a five-week period, with entirely different sets of symptoms in both cases. The second infection, which was quite debilitating, and which took much longer to recover from, was most likely from air travel so I can understand people being concerned about traveling or being surrounded by people in public places.
There was a family with 4 young children on the plane. They boarded early (good!).
But they would NOT make their kids sit down and take off their backpacks.
The issue: all kids wanted to sit by the window.
Look, I get it. Kids are a lot. They had the parents out-numbered 4 to 2. But, the parents should have known that it is not possible for all 4 of the kids to get a window seat when you booked only 2 seats with a window. There are lots of ways to solve this (take turns! kid with window on this flight gets no window next flight! only parents get window! ask folks nicely if they will trade!). But when your kids have a screaming meltdown and you are blocking the aisle so no one else can board you are going to get death glares.
Quote from: Langue_doc on July 05, 2023, 06:11:46 AMQuote from: Caracal on July 04, 2023, 04:26:17 AMQuote from: MarathonRunner on June 15, 2023, 11:30:44 AMI have an eight hour flight for an international move in August. I am dreading it. Masks no longer required. COVID can damage every organ system in the body, including the brain and heart. I'll wear a respirator but there's no denying masks work better when the majority of people wear them properly. Trying to figure out how to go ten plus hours without food or water (considering when I have to get through security plus get through customs, get luggage, etc.) Also not happy that I'll have to risk my life by taking my mask off just to be identified. Yes, risking my life. Even a asymptomatic case of COVID can cause a deadly heart attack or stroke. I hate people right now. I hate that public health has become politicized.
I don't know anything about your personal health situation, so I want to be careful. That said.
1. The risk of catching covid is cumulative, so pulling down your mask for 5 seconds for identification is not dramatically increasing your risk of infection.
2. Airports and even airplanes are pretty well ventilated spaces. Otherwise they would smell terrible all the time.
3. Long Covid is very real and a concern, but some perspective is needed. It's really hard to quantify the toll of something when it involves a lot of disparate symptoms ranging from mild to disabling. Regardless, according to the CDC, most people with long covid are experiencing fairly minor symptoms that they report aren't having a significant effect on their lives-stuff like lingering coughs-annoying rather than debilitating. Heart attacks and strokes are concerning, but also pretty rare. As you'd expect, both the minor and serious symptoms do seem to decrease and often completely go away over time. It also appears that the percentage of people getting long covid is going down-which probably is about vaccination and prior infection.
4. Again, I want to be sensitive, because I don't know what your health situation is. However, some of the language you are using suggests that you might need to recalibrate your ideas about risk. It's helped me to think of covid as something that isn't going away as a problem anytime soon. So, it's worth thinking about how I want to deal with the risk in the long term and how to balance that risk against other factors. Pulling down your mask for 5 seconds is "risking your life" in the same way that driving to work is. Technically an accurate description, but probably not a particularly healthy way to think about your life.
Covid is still with us as anyone who caught it recently can testify. An acquaintance despite all the shots, came down with it twice in a five-week period, with entirely different sets of symptoms in both cases. The second infection, which was quite debilitating, and which took much longer to recover from, was most likely from air travel so I can understand people being concerned about traveling or being surrounded by people in public places.
Sure. I'll probably wear a mask on the plane when I travel next month and will only take it off to sip a drink and eat a bit. I don't want to get covid. I was just reacting to the claim that removing a mask for a 5 seconds should be thought of as "risking your life."
Quote from: Caracal on July 06, 2023, 09:04:03 AMQuote from: Langue_doc on July 05, 2023, 06:11:46 AMQuote from: Caracal on July 04, 2023, 04:26:17 AMQuote from: MarathonRunner on June 15, 2023, 11:30:44 AMI have an eight hour flight for an international move in August. I am dreading it. Masks no longer required. COVID can damage every organ system in the body, including the brain and heart. I'll wear a respirator but there's no denying masks work better when the majority of people wear them properly. Trying to figure out how to go ten plus hours without food or water (considering when I have to get through security plus get through customs, get luggage, etc.) Also not happy that I'll have to risk my life by taking my mask off just to be identified. Yes, risking my life. Even a asymptomatic case of COVID can cause a deadly heart attack or stroke. I hate people right now. I hate that public health has become politicized.
I don't know anything about your personal health situation, so I want to be careful. That said.
1. The risk of catching covid is cumulative, so pulling down your mask for 5 seconds for identification is not dramatically increasing your risk of infection.
2. Airports and even airplanes are pretty well ventilated spaces. Otherwise they would smell terrible all the time.
3. Long Covid is very real and a concern, but some perspective is needed. It's really hard to quantify the toll of something when it involves a lot of disparate symptoms ranging from mild to disabling. Regardless, according to the CDC, most people with long covid are experiencing fairly minor symptoms that they report aren't having a significant effect on their lives-stuff like lingering coughs-annoying rather than debilitating. Heart attacks and strokes are concerning, but also pretty rare. As you'd expect, both the minor and serious symptoms do seem to decrease and often completely go away over time. It also appears that the percentage of people getting long covid is going down-which probably is about vaccination and prior infection.
4. Again, I want to be sensitive, because I don't know what your health situation is. However, some of the language you are using suggests that you might need to recalibrate your ideas about risk. It's helped me to think of covid as something that isn't going away as a problem anytime soon. So, it's worth thinking about how I want to deal with the risk in the long term and how to balance that risk against other factors. Pulling down your mask for 5 seconds is "risking your life" in the same way that driving to work is. Technically an accurate description, but probably not a particularly healthy way to think about your life.
Covid is still with us as anyone who caught it recently can testify. An acquaintance despite all the shots, came down with it twice in a five-week period, with entirely different sets of symptoms in both cases. The second infection, which was quite debilitating, and which took much longer to recover from, was most likely from air travel so I can understand people being concerned about traveling or being surrounded by people in public places.
Sure. I'll probably wear a mask on the plane when I travel next month and will only take it off to sip a drink and eat a bit. I don't want to get covid. I was just reacting to the claim that removing a mask for a 5 seconds should be thought of as "risking your life."
Yes I have to agree with Caracal here. For a healthy person who is up to date on vaccines, the probability of catching a life threatening bout of covid is extremely low. Wearing a mask reduces that probability still further, even if the mask is momentarily lowered.
This is not to say that it cannot happen, but we should really be encouraging people to have a more reasoned understanding of risks.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/air-france-passenger-blood-toronto-1.6905023
And people wonder why I'm worried about travelling internationally. I would be freaking out so badly that I would probably be arrested. No way I'd stay seated in a seat where a passenger had hemorrhaged, and it hadn't been properly cleaned. No way I'd be able to keep myself and my cat there. I'd probably be so freaked out that they would have to divert and arrest me. I can't even imagine. And asking the passenger to clean it up? I would have been sick and absolutely insane.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on July 13, 2023, 11:36:32 AMhttps://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/air-france-passenger-blood-toronto-1.6905023
And people wonder why I'm worried about travelling internationally. I would be freaking out so badly that I would probably be arrested. No way I'd stay seated in a seat where a passenger had hemorrhaged, and it hadn't been properly cleaned. No way I'd be able to keep myself and my cat there. I'd probably be so freaked out that they would have to divert and arrest me. I can't even imagine. And asking the passenger to clean it up? I would have been sick and absolutely insane.
Have to agree with you. What a nightmare! I can't even imagine. It's one thing if it happens on your own flight (and still... ack!), but it was on a previous flight and they still had him sit in that seat with the cats without fully, fully cleaning that up?! Oh my. I'm glad he's holding out for more compensation, though I'm not sure what would even compensate for that experience.
What kind of grown-a$$ adults have loud conversations in hotel hallways at 6:00 am? Who "raised" them like that?