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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: smallcleanrat on May 14, 2023, 08:07:11 PM

Title: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: smallcleanrat on May 14, 2023, 08:07:11 PM
I'm wondering how you can know when you're ready, but also...why do people want to have kids in the first place?

Should there be reasons beyond a gut-level want? Are there good and bad reasons?

Some of the reasons people have given me for their desire to have kids strike me as concerning. Things like wanting a sense of purpose or fulfillment...isn't that a lot of pressure to put on a kid? My mom seems to have had that expectation and she would frequently blame me for her unhappiness because I failed to provide those things. She's told me raising me "wasn't worth it."

The clearest want I can distinguish in myself is for the parent-child bond. I want to have that loving connection. But I worry this is just another form of putting expectations on a kid. It's my job to love the kid. It's not the kid's job to make me feel loved.

SO says he wants the "experiences" of parenthood. He likes to think about all the "Hallmark" moments he'll get to have with a kid. I can understand that.

He also says he wants a little piece of himself to live on after he's gone. I understand this less.

Are any or all of these reasons fine? Should they be sufficient?
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: dismalist on May 14, 2023, 08:27:33 PM
I was in my late 20's when the desire to have children overtook me. It was not conscious at first. I just noticed that at parties I would get onto the floor and play with any small children around. I eventually inferred I wanted to have children! It was all  internal and emotional, only marginally conscious.

A further step, an important one, was the realization that a woman was necessary to produce children! So I was open only to a woman who also wanted children. That, too, was intuited rather than conscious, and not discussed and verbally agreed until, well, much later.

I never had any conditions attached to this, nor did my wife. We had a healthy daughter and that made us very happy.

Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 14, 2023, 08:35:57 PM
Reasons are always good or bad (or both or neither). But what matters, really, is the how, rather than the why.

IMO reasons matter mostly because planned families are more desirable than unplanned ones. And reasons give you the motive force to get busy and make a child. But once that's done, they don't have much more work to do.

What matters is how you parent. (Forget about the 'parenting styles' rabbit hole, just pick and choose what seems right, after careful reflection.) And an important corollary is having adequate support and resources. The child-bearing parent will be out of commission for a while after the birth, even if there are no complications. And even if you could go back to work and life as usual immediately, that's not actually very desirable.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: marshwiggle on May 14, 2023, 11:50:18 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 14, 2023, 08:35:57 PM
Reasons are always good or bad (or both or neither). But what matters, really, is the how, rather than the why.

IMO reasons matter mostly because planned families are more desirable than unplanned ones. And reasons give you the motive force to get busy and make a child. But once that's done, they don't have much more work to do.

What matters is how you parent. (Forget about the 'parenting styles' rabbit hole, just pick and choose what seems right, after careful reflection.) And an important corollary is having adequate support and resources. The child-bearing parent will be out of commission for a while after the birth, even if there are no complications. And even if you could go back to work and life as usual immediately, that's not actually very desirable.

And once you have a child, your life will be changed FOREVER. That's fine if you're prepared for it. Some people think a kid is like a pet. Not remotely.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: Kron3007 on May 15, 2023, 03:20:15 AM
For me, it was right around the time my GF told me she was pregnant...

While our first was not planned, both of us had always just known we wanted children one day.  I guess for some people (like us), it is just always in the life plan.  We now have three (the other two were more planned).

Our first came when I was a PhD student.  In my mind, I would have waited to be in a more stable position, but if you wait for the perfect time it may just never come so it was a blessing in the end. 
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: jerseyjay on May 15, 2023, 06:02:05 AM
This question can be approached in two ways. One as a sociological question: how do people decide to have children. The other is a personal decision: should I (or the OP) have kids.

I am not a sociologist, but I assume there is research on the first aspect. It would seem to me to be divided by class, ethnicity/race, gender, and other factors. Many professionals (i.e., members of the educated middle class) I know have this idea of being "ready" to have children, including financially, emotionally, etc. I think as a result many professionals are now having kids later than was once the norm. But I think that many "normal" people don't really think about it that way. Many people I know had children when they had children, including at times when I wouldn't have advised it had I been asked (which I wasn't, so I shut up).

I think that for many people, children are expected and seen as good, so it is not a question of "deciding". This is not to say that many non-professional people do not practice birth control and do other things to prevent pregnancy or childbirth, but that they do not fixate on when to have children in the same way that many professionals I know do. Nor, once they have children, do they fixate on "how" to raise children the same way that many professionals do.  Not having children, rather than the default, for most people would have to be the decision that would need to be justified in the way the OP asks.

I must admit that a large portion of this thinking comes from discussions with my wife and her family (who are not professionals), who have a very different attitude towards children than I have. When I told my wife that I didn't want to have a child until I had financial stability (I was an adjunct when we got married) she thought it was the strangest thing. Many of her friends and relatives have had children in situations that, frankly, scare me (in severe financial or legal stress, for example) but again, nobody asks so I don't give my opinion. The only times my wife has indicated that she thinks that having a child was a bad idea was in the case of a 15-year girl and somebody whose partner was abusive. Both women, however, decided to have the children. 

The second aspect of the question is very personal, of course. The OP asks if their SO's reasons are fine or sufficient. Yes. And no. From an objective, rational standpoint, I don't think there is ever a reason to have children, especially in this country where childcare and healthcare are usually private burdens. Yes, humanity needs more people to survive, but that's not the same as saying that any individual should have children. However, while I do not really believe in what many people refer to as "human nature," there is a natural imperative to have procreate. Having a child makes absolutely no sense on one level, but our daughter has brought complete joy to my wife and me.

As Kron3007 indicated, there is no perfect time. There has to be a balance of personal, financial, biological, etc., factors, which is different for each person (and each couple).
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: smallcleanrat on May 15, 2023, 04:33:23 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 14, 2023, 11:50:18 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 14, 2023, 08:35:57 PM
Reasons are always good or bad (or both or neither). But what matters, really, is the how, rather than the why.

IMO reasons matter mostly because planned families are more desirable than unplanned ones. And reasons give you the motive force to get busy and make a child. But once that's done, they don't have much more work to do.

What matters is how you parent. (Forget about the 'parenting styles' rabbit hole, just pick and choose what seems right, after careful reflection.) And an important corollary is having adequate support and resources. The child-bearing parent will be out of commission for a while after the birth, even if there are no complications. And even if you could go back to work and life as usual immediately, that's not actually very desirable.

And once you have a child, your life will be changed FOREVER. That's fine if you're prepared for it. Some people think a kid is like a pet. Not remotely.

What does being prepared for it look like? I mean beyond being able to provide for their material needs. I guess I'm most worried about hurting a kid's development somehow because I won't know what I'm doing. How do you judge in advance your fitness to be a parent?

Quote from: jerseyjay on May 15, 2023, 06:02:05 AM
As Kron3007 indicated, there is no perfect time. There has to be a balance of personal, financial, biological, etc., factors, which is different for each person (and each couple).

I know you and Kron007 are right about "the perfect time" and that the decision-making process varies a lot. I think I was mostly looking for people to talk about their own experiences so I could read different perspectives.

You made a lot of interesting points.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: dismalist on May 15, 2023, 04:43:01 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 15, 2023, 04:33:23 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 14, 2023, 11:50:18 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 14, 2023, 08:35:57 PM
Reasons are always good or bad (or both or neither). But what matters, really, is the how, rather than the why.

IMO reasons matter mostly because planned families are more desirable than unplanned ones. And reasons give you the motive force to get busy and make a child. But once that's done, they don't have much more work to do.

What matters is how you parent. (Forget about the 'parenting styles' rabbit hole, just pick and choose what seems right, after careful reflection.) And an important corollary is having adequate support and resources. The child-bearing parent will be out of commission for a while after the birth, even if there are no complications. And even if you could go back to work and life as usual immediately, that's not actually very desirable.

And once you have a child, your life will be changed FOREVER. That's fine if you're prepared for it. Some people think a kid is like a pet. Not remotely.

What does being prepared for it look like? I mean beyond being able to provide for their material needs. I guess I'm most worried about hurting a kid's development somehow because I won't know what I'm doing. How do you judge in advance your fitness to be a parent?

We been doing it for ca. 300, 000 years. If we weren't fit, we'd not be here!

We had fun with our daughter growing up. Nothing could be more rewarding. Wife took off several years raising our child. High quality human capital is expensive to form.

Being prepared? Well, just post birth: Wife, in a different country, calls to say what to buy for the arrival of infant! I knew less than my wife did. Thank goodness a woman who had had children was at the counter of the store where I bought all that stuff.

Breast feeding can be difficult, but I was merely a witness.

Daughter thrived!
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: Hegemony on May 15, 2023, 04:44:59 PM
Being a parent means putting another person first to a great extent. Not total self-sacrifice, but some. I think the question to be asked is "Does keeping my head above water occupy all my time and energy, or do I have some reserves? Am I on top of the things that trouble me, by and large, so that I can put them in the background when someone else's needs are urgent?  Do I have a good sense of what my parents did right, which I can replicate, and what they did wrong, and how I could do better?" And "What does my support system look like?" You can do it without having much of a support system beforehand, but it will be easier if it is already set up. That would include generous friends (who, for instance, will still want to see you even when you are frazzled, late for lunch, and toting a toddler who may throw up at any moment), a source of daycare, people to advise on parenting dilemmas, and people who will stick with you even though all you say is "I'm so tired." Of course it's possible to gather the support system as you go, but some degree of determination is useful.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: Caracal on May 16, 2023, 06:10:03 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 15, 2023, 04:33:23 PM


What does being prepared for it look like? I mean beyond being able to provide for their material needs. I guess I'm most worried about hurting a kid's development somehow because I won't know what I'm doing. How do you judge in advance your fitness to be a parent?


The good news is that kids develop on their own and you don't really have to do anything to make it happen, other than provide for those material needs and love them. It's amazing, they start off as these helpless blobs who can't support their own heads, and, if you're like me, you worry endlessly about their milestones, and whether they should be doing something they aren't, and then one day they start crawling around, or decide to figure out how to walk, or start saying words and eventually constructing complex sentences. As long as you don't lock the kid in the basement, they just figure all this stuff out on their own. If you're a neurotic person, like me, it's therapeutic to realize that your worries and anxieties are totally irrelevant.

Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: ciao_yall on May 16, 2023, 07:06:37 AM
Quote from: Caracal on May 16, 2023, 06:10:03 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 15, 2023, 04:33:23 PM


What does being prepared for it look like? I mean beyond being able to provide for their material needs. I guess I'm most worried about hurting a kid's development somehow because I won't know what I'm doing. How do you judge in advance your fitness to be a parent?


The good news is that kids develop on their own and you don't really have to do anything to make it happen, other than provide for those material needs and love them. It's amazing, they start off as these helpless blobs who can't support their own heads, and, if you're like me, you worry endlessly about their milestones, and whether they should be doing something they aren't, and then one day they start crawling around, or decide to figure out how to walk, or start saying words and eventually constructing complex sentences. As long as you don't lock the kid in the basement, they just figure all this stuff out on their own. If you're a neurotic person, like me, it's therapeutic to realize that your worries and anxieties are totally irrelevant.

And, surround them with other adults and people so they learn from those around them, not just you.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: RatGuy on May 16, 2023, 07:16:29 AM
While my wife and I always wanted children, we disagreed on when it was a good time. I'm consistently underpaid, and her employment was spotty and erratic (partially due to her chronic health problems). When she'd lament that we didn't have children, I'd say that we'd start when we were financially stable. This year I came home from work one day and found she'd moved out and taken everything with her -- and moved three states away. Her reason? "You'll never want to have kids with me." If I'd known that "not right now" meant that she'd move out, well, I might've done things differently.

All that to say: make sure that you're communicating effectively about desires and aspirations and expectations. And consider that you might think you're expressing your ideas effectively, and it might be hard to draw a line in the sand, but the other party may not be hearing what you're saying. In situations such as the discussion to have children, it's important that everyone understands everyone else's stance.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: downer on May 16, 2023, 07:48:28 AM
I did not want kids and didn't have them. I've always been pleased with the decision.

There are definitely all sorts of reasons people have for having kids or not having them, both reasonable and unreasonable.

While having kids is still the most common decision, it's increasingly no longer a default assumption. Some governments are trying to provide incentives for people to have kids. But 8 bilion people on the planet seems plenty.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: Antiphon1 on May 16, 2023, 06:53:10 PM
SO and I always knew we wanted children.  The reality of working/degrees/insurance/child care (in no particular order) forced us to delay until 3 of the 4 factors came together.  That was the calculus for Antison 1.  The next two children were planned-ish, but mostly a lack of concern about our ability to juggle family and careers brought us to a more relaxed stance.  You either know that you want to replicate or you know you don't want go there.  Honor yourself and your desires. 
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 16, 2023, 10:34:08 PM
For what it's worth, I was ambivalent about it. I would have been happy either way, and didn't have a strong preference. The same was true of my partner, until it wasn't; and once that changed, I was happy to go down the child route. And every day since has been an utter delight.

One word of advance warning, however: once the birthing partner hits 35, they call it a "geriatric" pregnancy. =/
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: Caracal on May 17, 2023, 05:25:26 AM
Quote from: downer on May 16, 2023, 07:48:28 AM
I did not want kids and didn't have them. I've always been pleased with the decision.

There are definitely all sorts of reasons people have for having kids or not having them, both reasonable and unreasonable.

While having kids is still the most common decision, it's increasingly no longer a default assumption. Some governments are trying to provide incentives for people to have kids. But 8 bilion people on the planet seems plenty.

I think it works better if we acknowledge that the reasons are intensely personal and most of the "big picture" arguments are probably rationalizations created later to justify the decision. I really doubt that anyone who really wants to have a kid decides they won't because of global warming. If we start making these choices into universal moral decisions, you can end up following that path into an idea that we should either stigmatize and penalize the childless, or that child rearing is an anti social decision that we shouldn't support as a society so no need for parent leave or any of the rest of it.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: MarathonRunner on May 17, 2023, 11:16:07 AM
So I never liked babysitting. I liked being a Girl Guide leader and camp counsellor but otherwise didn't really like children. Spouse was indifferent. I ended up infertile due to endometriosis, do it seemed meant to be that we not have children. Happily married and a cat mom to three cats, and aunt to two nephews and one niece.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: MarathonRunner on May 17, 2023, 11:20:37 AM
Quote from: downer on May 16, 2023, 07:48:28 AM
I did not want kids and didn't have them. I've always been pleased with the decision.

There are definitely all sorts of reasons people have for having kids or not having them, both reasonable and unreasonable.

While having kids is still the most common decision, it's increasingly no longer a default assumption. Some governments are trying to provide incentives for people to have kids. But 8 bilion people on the planet seems plenty.

I don't have children. I'm often asked "who will look after you when you are old?"  A.if that's the reason you are having children, that's incredibly selfish, and I feel for your children. B. Working with older adults, plenty of people have children who couldn't give a flying f about them, so they are the equivalent of childless, or worse.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: downer on May 17, 2023, 12:15:00 PM
Quote from: Caracal on May 17, 2023, 05:25:26 AM
Quote from: downer on May 16, 2023, 07:48:28 AM
I did not want kids and didn't have them. I've always been pleased with the decision.

There are definitely all sorts of reasons people have for having kids or not having them, both reasonable and unreasonable.

While having kids is still the most common decision, it's increasingly no longer a default assumption. Some governments are trying to provide incentives for people to have kids. But 8 bilion people on the planet seems plenty.

I think it works better if we acknowledge that the reasons are intensely personal and most of the "big picture" arguments are probably rationalizations created later to justify the decision. I really doubt that anyone who really wants to have a kid decides they won't because of global warming. If we start making these choices into universal moral decisions, you can end up following that path into an idea that we should either stigmatize and penalize the childless, or that child rearing is an anti social decision that we shouldn't support as a society so no need for parent leave or any of the rest of it.

The evidence is that you are wrong about how people make decisions.

There have been lots of news reports of people directly citing climate change as a reason for not having kids. E.g.,
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/12/climate-change-is-making-people-think-twice-about-having-children.html
and
https://www.marieclaire.com/politics/climate-change-fertility-modern-fertility-survey/

There are also lots of stories about parents being intensely worried about their kids' future due to climate change.

As you will have already heard, the personal is political. And the political is personal.

How widespread is this way of thinking? Hard to say, but marriage and religion are on the decline in most of the west. These are largely the institutions that promote having children.

The other issue you raise is whether we should embrace this way of thinking, and you highlight some of the dangers of politicizing personal decisions. I agree it is tricky. The US especially has a problematic history of controlling women's reproduction. But I tend to think these issues are inherently political, so the issue is really how we politicize them rather than whether we do so.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: dismalist on May 17, 2023, 12:54:06 PM
People say all kinds of things to defend or explain their motives. What people say may be totally different from what motivates them. "I won't have kids because of global warming" or on account "There's too many people already" sounds much more acceptable in many circles than "I won't have kids because I'd rather spend the money on material possessions for myself." Whatever.

If one were to take the negative externality argument seriously, that additional human beings pollute the planet, that would likely be wrong. Improvements in levels of living are  caused by the implementation of new ideas. People create ideas. The more new people, the more new ideas. We can call this anti-Malthus.

No one should feel bad about deciding for oneself whether one wants kids. No need to kid oneself -- in either direction.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: ciao_yall on May 17, 2023, 01:59:52 PM
Mr Y'all and I did not have kids. We just forgot. Kept hitting snooze on the biological alarm clock.

No regrets.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: mythbuster on May 17, 2023, 02:07:08 PM
I do not have children because- like Marathonrunner, I have never had an interest in being a Mother.  I actively dislike babies (do NOT hand them to me!)- and small children are fine, but I do like my peace and quiet. And looking at being a mother what I see primarily is a ton of work, body distortion ( my family has a bad history with long term childbirth complications) and societal imposed sacrifice. If I want to cuddle with something it will be my cat or dog.
    In discussing it with Mr. Buster years ago it became clear that I would not be happy giving up parts of my current life for the sake of a child. While he was interested in having those "memories" like his Dad did of playing ball in the yard etc, he readily admitted that his Dad was NOT the primary parent in the house given that he was the sole breadwinner- he was gone on business trips a lot.
    So my advice is to start by listening to your gut. Is this something that you are actively interested in or do you only think abut it because of family/societal etc. obligation? Then have a conversation with Mr. Rat as to those feelings. Yes that can change over time, but start with that open conversation and see where it goes.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: arcturus on May 17, 2023, 03:42:23 PM
I will add another "no kids" voice to this thread. In my case, I knew/know that I do not want children. I never enjoyed/wanted to babysit. I don't mind interacting with children of a particular age range (old enough to communicate, young enough to still want to interact with adults...), but a parent is responsible at all age ranges, regardless. I also am aware of my own personality traits that are not conducive to effective parenting. Nonetheless, I do strongly believe that each person/couple should be able to make their own decisions about the timing and number of children they bring into the world. So, please keep in mind that my choices are mine, not yours.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: pgher on May 17, 2023, 03:47:34 PM
I never had any interest in kids, until one day I did. I would say that there is always a reason not to have kids. At some point, though, you get a feeling that overcomes rationality. As dismalist says, lots of reasons given for and against having kids are actually post hoc rationalizations. We have evolved to desire procreation, so there is a part of our biology that pushes us that direction when the circumstances are right.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: Caracal on May 18, 2023, 07:58:21 AM
Quote from: dismalist on May 17, 2023, 12:54:06 PM
People say all kinds of things to defend or explain their motives. What people say may be totally different from what motivates them. "I won't have kids because of global warming" or on account "There's too many people already" sounds much more acceptable in many circles than "I won't have kids because I'd rather spend the money on material possessions for myself." Whatever.

If one were to take the negative externality argument seriously, that additional human beings pollute the planet, that would likely be wrong. Improvements in levels of living are  caused by the implementation of new ideas. People create ideas. The more new people, the more new ideas. We can call this anti-Malthus.

No one should feel bad about deciding for oneself whether one wants kids. No need to kid oneself -- in either direction.

Exactly, I believe people say that kind of thing, I just don't really believe them.

I also have to admit that I think there's something egotistical about the argument. When you bring a kid into the world, you have no way of knowing what challenges or difficulties they will face, from the global to the personal. To claim that you can make a judgement on that balancing their difficulties against the joy they may experience or bring to others is just hubris. People can't know what an imaginary kid's life might be like, or how global warming might effect it. That's not how this works.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: Stockmann on May 18, 2023, 09:07:55 AM
There are good and bad reasons to want children, definitely - bad ones are such as wanting them to follow a highly prescribed life path they had no say in planning, or as your retirement plan. The "big," ethical reasons like climate change I don't really buy - a lot of people are unwilling to make much smaller lifestyle choices than childfree/parent based on that, so I'm very skeptical these are the real reasons. Having said that, if you don't truly want children (as distinct from wanting a retirement plan, avoiding getting badmouthed by the local busybodies or whatever) you shouldn't have them - raising the next generation is much too important to be left to those who don't actually want to do it.
Me and my wife are one & done, meaning there are plenty of people on either camp who disapprove of our choices. My wife pretty much always wanted at least one child, I changed my mind multiple times over time (I think that was mainly due to changes in partners or lack thereof), but our kid was very much wanted and planned.
As to when is the right time, that's always a gamble - wait too long and it's not just fertility issues or genetic risks that are a concern, it's also the reality of being older and coping with being sleep-deprived, chasing after a toddler, etc. On the other hand, there are all the issues about income, stability, etc, particularly at a time when the cost of housing has gone through the roof in most of the world.
I think dealing with the title issue will actually be among the top societal concerns of the coming decades, at least at a par with climate change and its consequences, as it's clearly not just a developed country issue (Russia and China already have declining populations, Mexico's fertility rate has fallen below replacement and India's is not far behind). Developed countries I think can always manage the issue with a combo of immigration, raising the retirement age, and automation, but developing countries are going to face a combo of ageing population and much of their young, healthy, skilled labor leaving for greener pastures. A "Children of Men"style collapse I think is possible, even likely, for countries like Russia (ageing and shrinking without even becoming rich) and South Korea (rich but with the lowest fertility rate on the planet).
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: smallcleanrat on May 18, 2023, 12:31:25 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on May 15, 2023, 04:44:59 PM
I think the question to be asked is "Does keeping my head above water occupy all my time and energy, or do I have some reserves? Am I on top of the things that trouble me, by and large, so that I can put them in the background when someone else's needs are urgent?  Do I have a good sense of what my parents did right, which I can replicate, and what they did wrong, and how I could do better?" And "What does my support system look like?"

I think these are key questions that I'm struggling with. I think SO is so much less scared of this decision than I am because he currently has more energy reserves than I do. He talks about feeling something missing in his life, that he needs more than work and cats and me. I feel like work and cats and him keep my hands pretty full already; I'm scared I won't be able to handle much more. We've talked about me being a stay-at-home parent so I can focus fully on childcare, but I don't know how sustainable that would be.

Quote from: ciao_yall on May 16, 2023, 07:06:37 AM
Quote from: Caracal on May 16, 2023, 06:10:03 AM
The good news is that kids develop on their own and you don't really have to do anything to make it happen, other than provide for those material needs and love them. It's amazing, they start off as these helpless blobs who can't support their own heads, and, if you're like me, you worry endlessly about their milestones, and whether they should be doing something they aren't, and then one day they start crawling around, or decide to figure out how to walk, or start saying words and eventually constructing complex sentences. As long as you don't lock the kid in the basement, they just figure all this stuff out on their own. If you're a neurotic person, like me, it's therapeutic to realize that your worries and anxieties are totally irrelevant.

And, surround them with other adults and people so they learn from those around them, not just you.

Caracal, thanks. It helps to read this message from someone who's been there. My doctor (who has raised two sons to adulthood) said something similar: "It's mostly genetic programming. They'll become who they are regardless of what you do."

ciao_yall, good point.

Quote from: RatGuy on May 16, 2023, 07:16:29 AM
While my wife and I always wanted children, we disagreed on when it was a good time. I'm consistently underpaid, and her employment was spotty and erratic (partially due to her chronic health problems). When she'd lament that we didn't have children, I'd say that we'd start when we were financially stable. This year I came home from work one day and found she'd moved out and taken everything with her -- and moved three states away. Her reason? "You'll never want to have kids with me." If I'd known that "not right now" meant that she'd move out, well, I might've done things differently.

All that to say: make sure that you're communicating effectively about desires and aspirations and expectations. And consider that you might think you're expressing your ideas effectively, and it might be hard to draw a line in the sand, but the other party may not be hearing what you're saying. In situations such as the discussion to have children, it's important that everyone understands everyone else's stance.

I'm very sorry that happened to you. I may be in a somewhat similar position. SO has made it clear that not having kids is a dealbreaker. I'm not saying never, but I am saying "not right now." I have some chronic health issues, and he's stuck with me for years waiting for me to get better. I am better than I used to be, but I want more time to get stronger. But he says he's at a point where he can't wait much longer.

Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 16, 2023, 10:34:08 PM
For what it's worth, I was ambivalent about it. I would have been happy either way, and didn't have a strong preference. The same was true of my partner, until it wasn't; and once that changed, I was happy to go down the child route. And every day since has been an utter delight.

I do find it reassuring that things can work out, even if you start out ambivalent.

Quote from: mythbuster on May 17, 2023, 02:07:08 PM
    So my advice is to start by listening to your gut. Is this something that you are actively interested in or do you only think abut it because of family/societal etc. obligation? Then have a conversation with Mr. Rat as to those feelings. Yes that can change over time, but start with that open conversation and see where it goes.

Honestly, I'm a little uncomfortable around kids, but mostly due to not having much experience interacting with them. I worry about saying or doing the wrong thing. SO isn't experienced with kids either, so I told him I want to take parenting classes so we're not going into this completely naive.

I do want a kid, but so far I've felt nothing remotely like a primal yearning to procreate (something SO says he feels strongly). I'm not sure if that lack is a red flag or not. I feel utterly indifferent as to whether a kid shares my genes and is of my body, but I do want to love and care for a kid. However, I only want to be a parent if I can be a good one. What I want is secondary to what the kid needs. I don't want a kid to suffer because I rushed into something I wasn't prepared to do well.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: downer on May 18, 2023, 12:40:27 PM
I agree that what people say about their motives and their real motives may not match up. Whether that is especially true about having children I don't know. People are rarely very consistent in their moral convictions and not thorough in applying those convictions to their behavior. But there's a lot of wiggle room for explaining away apparent inconsistencies.

There's also the question of whether people are honest about being glad they had kids. It's socially unacceptable to say that you regret having children, so it's very likely people are sometimes not honest, either to themselves or others, about their regrets. And of course people also rationalize their actions because we all want to seem rational to ourselves.

To what extent is the desire to have kids the result of "biological urges" (which are probably more about having sex than having kids), versus social and family pressure, moral reasoning, or a search for personal fulfillment, is all pretty hard to tell. For the countries with the lowest birthrates -- Hong Kong, Japan, Germany, South Korea, Portugal, Italy -- all sorts of factors are in play. And now we are running a social experiment in the US: will banning abortion in some states mean that the birthrate goes up there? There's the curious fact that abortion rates often go down when abortion is legalized in some countries, and countries that are permissive about abortion have lower abortion rates.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: the_geneticist on May 18, 2023, 03:56:29 PM
I'm someone else who is child-free by choice, but it was a journey to get here.
Growing up, I never liked babies or small children (noisy! messy!), but I was told that I would "eventually" want them.  Everyone in my family had kids, same with the neighbors, and the friends of the family.  I didn't even know that you could *choose* to not be a parent.  But I also did not understand the appeal of babies - if there was a party with a baby and a cat, I was the one holding the cat.

My now-ex tried to demand that I "give him a family", but saw his role as just bringing home a paycheck and being the "fun dad" on weekends.  Even though my graduate school job had longer hours, he expected me to be the one responsible for the bulk of the chores (cooking, cleaning, laundry, shopping, paying bills) when it was just the two of us and a cat.  Told me that if I wanted our place to be cleaner, then I should clean more.  And that having a child "wouldn't change anything about that".  Nope to that.  Got divorced. 

Took a few years to consider my goals in life and realized that I did not want to be a parent.

It is HARD to be a parent.  Until they are old enough to be in school, childcare is expensive.  Kids get sick a lot and you will get sick a lot.  Your household expenses will skyrocket, even if you don't pay for childcare or cleaning services.  You and your partner will have much less time for "just the two of you", especially in the first year with an infant.  The volume of laundry created by one tiny baby is staggeringly high.  No, it's not from washing the cute little onesies (even though several outfit changes a day are totally expected). 
Bottom line: you need to be a strong team who support each other as parents.  If you are having any relationship problems, even about "trivial" things like an unfair split of who does the laundry, a child will not make it easier.

I like quiet mornings to myself to drink tea, read a bit while eating breakfast, and playing with our cats.  I have a loving husband, fun hobbies, friends, and can travel.  I'm happy with my choice.

That being said, I absolutely LOVE my nephew and my friends' children.  Turn out, I DO like babies and small children.  I just don't want to live with them!
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: fleabite on May 18, 2023, 04:54:08 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 18, 2023, 12:31:25 PM
I feel utterly indifferent as to whether a kid shares my genes and is of my body, but I do want to love and care for a kid. However, I only want to be a parent if I can be a good one. What I want is secondary to what the kid needs. I don't want a kid to suffer because I rushed into something I wasn't prepared to do well.

There are no perfect mothers or fathers. What matters is that you try. You want to love and care for a child, and you are willing to put their needs first. That sounds like a recipe for successful parenthood to me. Trust yourself.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: apl68 on May 19, 2023, 07:23:49 AM
Quote from: fleabite on May 18, 2023, 04:54:08 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 18, 2023, 12:31:25 PM
I feel utterly indifferent as to whether a kid shares my genes and is of my body, but I do want to love and care for a kid. However, I only want to be a parent if I can be a good one. What I want is secondary to what the kid needs. I don't want a kid to suffer because I rushed into something I wasn't prepared to do well.

There are no perfect mothers or fathers. What matters is that you try. You want to love and care for a child, and you are willing to put their needs first. That sounds like a recipe for successful parenthood to me. Trust yourself.

Love and care are what any child needs.  The desire to commit to giving these things of oneself is one of the noblest motives that anybody can have.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 19, 2023, 08:00:19 AM
Also FWIW, since I didn't say it earlier: in addition to being ambivalent about having children, I had no prior interest in children. They tend to like me, for reasons unknown, but I've always been pretty awkward with them, and had no real interest in playing with them, looking after them, etc.

That's still true, except that I'm not at all awkward with the hatchling,* and I enjoy playing with him.




*It's by definition impossible, because I'm (and the Maiasaurus, obviously) all he knows.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: Caracal on May 19, 2023, 08:26:19 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 18, 2023, 12:31:25 PM

I think these are key questions that I'm struggling with. I think SO is so much less scared of this decision than I am because he currently has more energy reserves than I do. He talks about feeling something missing in his life, that he needs more than work and cats and me. I feel like work and cats and him keep my hands pretty full already; I'm scared I won't be able to handle much more. We've talked about me being a stay-at-home parent so I can focus fully on childcare, but I don't know how sustainable that would be.



Kids just carve out the time and emotional energy and you have less time for all the rest. There are good and bad things about that. It is often overwhelming to have this person around to take care of and manage all the time, but on the other hand, you do tend to put less emotional energy and time into things like work-at least that's my experience.

I would think long and hard before deciding to be a stay at home parent. My wife makes a lot more than I do-and there was a moment before the kid was born when I thought "I barely make enough money to cover daycare, maybe it would make more sense for me to just stay home with the kid." Once he was actually born, I realized immediately that I would lose my mind as a stay at home parent. I'm an involved parent, but I need time and space where there's not a child around all the time.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: the_geneticist on May 19, 2023, 12:25:35 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 18, 2023, 12:31:25 PM

I think these are key questions that I'm struggling with. I think SO is so much less scared of this decision than I am because he currently has more energy reserves than I do. He talks about feeling something missing in his life, that he needs more than work and cats and me. I feel like work and cats and him keep my hands pretty full already; I'm scared I won't be able to handle much more. We've talked about me being a stay-at-home parent so I can focus fully on childcare, but I don't know how sustainable that would be.

Does your SO have any hobbies? friends? religious organizations or other clubs? family he's close with? volunteer for anything?

You cannot be his *everything* outside of work and your cats. 

If HE wanted to be a stay-at-home parent, then I'd be more inclined to support his side.  Ironically, it's easy to find other adults to socialize with if you stay home with small children - walking groups! story hour! baby & me swim classes!
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 19, 2023, 01:00:28 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 19, 2023, 12:25:35 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 18, 2023, 12:31:25 PM

I think these are key questions that I'm struggling with. I think SO is so much less scared of this decision than I am because he currently has more energy reserves than I do. He talks about feeling something missing in his life, that he needs more than work and cats and me. I feel like work and cats and him keep my hands pretty full already; I'm scared I won't be able to handle much more. We've talked about me being a stay-at-home parent so I can focus fully on childcare, but I don't know how sustainable that would be.

Does your SO have any hobbies? friends? religious organizations or other clubs? family he's close with? volunteer for anything?

You cannot be his *everything* outside of work and your cats. 

If HE wanted to be a stay-at-home parent, then I'd be more inclined to support his side.  Ironically, it's easy to find other adults to socialize with if you stay home with small children - walking groups! story hour! baby & me swim classes!

Yeah, we know loads of people now that we have a hatchling, and we met them all through hatchling-focused activities. We went from knowing nobody at all after years here to knowing dozens in just a couple of years.

I'm pretty much the only male partner who's ever around, though. That suits me fine because I'm especially bad at socializing with men, but it also seems kind of sad.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: smallcleanrat on May 26, 2023, 04:19:46 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 19, 2023, 12:25:35 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 18, 2023, 12:31:25 PM

I think these are key questions that I'm struggling with. I think SO is so much less scared of this decision than I am because he currently has more energy reserves than I do. He talks about feeling something missing in his life, that he needs more than work and cats and me. I feel like work and cats and him keep my hands pretty full already; I'm scared I won't be able to handle much more. We've talked about me being a stay-at-home parent so I can focus fully on childcare, but I don't know how sustainable that would be.

Does your SO have any hobbies? friends? religious organizations or other clubs? family he's close with? volunteer for anything?

You cannot be his *everything* outside of work and your cats. 

If HE wanted to be a stay-at-home parent, then I'd be more inclined to support his side.  Ironically, it's easy to find other adults to socialize with if you stay home with small children - walking groups! story hour! baby & me swim classes!

He has hobbies, friends, volunteer work and family. Truthfully, he's got a much fuller, more balanced life than I've managed to make for myself. But he seems to specifically need a kid for his life to feel complete. If I decide I definitely don't want to go through with having kids, he says he'll go it alone through adoption or egg donation as a single parent. We're on the older side for new parents, so I understand his reluctance to wait much longer, but I'm scared.

It's not that I don't want kids, it's that my bar for feeling ready seems to be much higher than his. Among other things, I have bipolar disorder. It's fairly well-controlled with medication currently, but I'm asking myself how I can possibly guarantee I'll maintain this level of stability for the two decades it takes to raise a child. If I do have an episode, can SO and I adequately protect our kid from being affected? SO thinks we'll work out problems as they arise. I think we need to consider these things upfront.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: dismalist on May 26, 2023, 04:42:43 PM
Quote... for the two decades it takes to raise a child.

It does not take two decades to raise a child! Children can dress and undress themselves by around the age of three. They can be as independent as one likes, or they like, from about age five.

While the earliest years of child raising are on average best provided by the mother [Law of Comparative Advantage], the father can do lots of things without danger of breaking the child. Later on, the father can do much more. For example, this soccer mom stuff we never indulged in, but I did drive child to school, to orchestra, and so on. And of course I cooked and cleaned -- for everybody.

I have to say that we lived in a neighborhood that was relatively civilized, so we could let our daughter run around outside without supervision and she could learn to take care of herself more. When she turned 16 we got her a car and she drove to High School herself.

I don't wish to convince anyone to have or not to have children. Aside from conveying a bit of realism, I merely don't want anyone to forget that raising a child is fun!

Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: Antiphon1 on May 26, 2023, 08:48:57 PM
Quote from: dismalist on May 26, 2023, 04:42:43 PM
raising a child is fun!

Damn straight.  Children remind us that we once upon a time took great joy in the simplest acts.  It's humbling and refreshing to be reminded that we can enjoy absurdity and realism simultaneously without any contradiction at all.  Being in the moment is a gift. 
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 27, 2023, 03:13:16 PM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 26, 2023, 04:19:46 PM

We're on the older side for new parents, so I understand his reluctance to wait much longer, but I'm scared.

FWIW, my partner was 36 when she gave birth (I was 34) two years ago (my mother was 28, hers, 36). Since then, most of the people with kids we've met (and it's a fair few, as I run a weekly parent-and-child singalong) are around our age. Most of them are/were new parents, too.

We're happy to have waited as long as we did. No regrets. It would have bee fine to wait longer, too.

Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: latico on August 14, 2023, 11:05:32 AM
I think that the best thing you could do, SCR, as part of your decision-making, is expose yourself to babies.  My local hospital has multiple volunteer opportunities with kids, including being a "cuddler" (someone who soothes infants); reading bedtime stories; and the like.  A lot of what can make the first few weeks of having a baby hard is the unfamiliarity of newborns, their seemingly total fragility, their just plain alien-ness.  It takes several weeks for a baby to respond to its caregiver, so the first few weeks can feel like unremitting, unrewarded toil on behalf of this squalling little beast who is indifferent to you. Once you get that first smile...things almost always look brighter. 
So doing a bit of work with infants and young babies will calibrate your own expectations for what it will be like after you have your baby, or it will show you that you very much dislike baby care.  That in turn might lead to either deciding against kids, or structuring your family a bit differently, so that SO does the majority of baby care while you are back at work.

It is hard to make a decision about having a baby when you don't know a lot about babies.  Also, SO should do the volunteering as well; that will give you both concrete experiences to talk about together as part of your decision-making process.

From my own experience: whatever you decide, make yourself a promise that you won't look back and regret the decision.  Commit wholeheartedly to being child free or to having kids, and never find yourself at age 60 obsessing about what could have been if you did or didn't have kids.  Best of luck to you and SO!!
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: latico on August 14, 2023, 11:52:56 AM
Very sorry to double post, but I intended to respond to the remark you quote from your mom: "Raising you wasn't 'worth it'."  Apart from the obvious observation that it is unconscionable to say that to your child, I wanted to point out that it is not a comment about *you*, SCR.  It is really a comment about your mother's perspective on choices she made in her life and the unrealistic expectations that she allowed herself to feel about those choices. 

I feel fairly confident that even if you were a perfectly ordinary, materially successful, healthy young woman, your mother would *still* make cruel remarks like that.  She would find some negative aspect of Ordinary Daughter onto which she could project her own dissatisfaction with herself.  Because what lies behind a remark like that is profound unhappiness and self-loathing.  She is offloading it onto you, by imagining that your challenges are its cause, but don't fall for it. 

Going forward, treat your mother as if she were a troll on an internet thread: DNFTM-T (Do Not Feed The Mom-Troll).  That means never telling her anything bad that happens to you, or any of your negative thoughts or feelings, or even any of your diagnoses.  Put her on a diet of unrelenting positivity: "Yes, everything is great Mom!  I had a paper accepted! | My PI said I am a terrific teacher! | I passed my exams with flying colors! | SO is the best! | SO says I'm the best!" And so on.  This may feel false at first, but it's really only changing the focus in your relationship with her, onto everything that is positive about your life. Most parents would be *delighted* to have a child as academically successful as you are, in a field as difficult as yours.  Make sure that your successes are all your mom knows about you.

Above all, do NOT believe her cruel comments have *anything* to do with you: remember, you have been serving a useful psychological purpose for her, as an external cause she can blame for her own unhappiness and dissatisfaction. She would use *any* daughter for that purpose, no matter how wonderful she might be.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: Caracal on August 15, 2023, 06:55:16 AM
Quote from: latico on August 14, 2023, 11:52:56 AMVery sorry to double post, but I intended to respond to the remark you quote from your mom: "Raising you wasn't 'worth it'."  Apart from the obvious observation that it is unconscionable to say that to your child, I wanted to point out that it is not a comment about *you*, SCR.  It is really a comment about your mother's perspective on choices she made in her life and the unrealistic expectations that she allowed herself to feel about those choices. 

I feel fairly confident that even if you were a perfectly ordinary, materially successful, healthy young woman, your mother would *still* make cruel remarks like that.  She would find some negative aspect of Ordinary Daughter onto which she could project her own dissatisfaction with herself.  Because what lies behind a remark like that is profound unhappiness and self-loathing.  She is offloading it onto you, by imagining that your challenges are its cause, but don't fall for it. 

Going forward, treat your mother as if she were a troll on an internet thread: DNFTM-T (Do Not Feed The Mom-Troll).  That means never telling her anything bad that happens to you, or any of your negative thoughts or feelings, or even any of your diagnoses.  Put her on a diet of unrelenting positivity: "Yes, everything is great Mom!  I had a paper accepted! | My PI said I am a terrific teacher! | I passed my exams with flying colors! | SO is the best! | SO says I'm the best!" And so on.  This may feel false at first, but it's really only changing the focus in your relationship with her, onto everything that is positive about your life. Most parents would be *delighted* to have a child as academically successful as you are, in a field as difficult as yours.  Make sure that your successes are all your mom knows about you.

Above all, do NOT believe her cruel comments have *anything* to do with you: remember, you have been serving a useful psychological purpose for her, as an external cause she can blame for her own unhappiness and dissatisfaction. She would use *any* daughter for that purpose, no matter how wonderful she might be.

This is well said. Regret is, I suspect, mostly about an inability to manage and process feelings. We have a 2 month old and a 6 year old and at the moment, everything feels like a complete disaster most of the time. Kids are people, they don't exist to validate their parents' decisions and make them feel happy. It would be like if you expected your partner to always make you happy at every moment and never irritate or frustrate you. It doesn't work like that.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: fishbrains on August 18, 2023, 05:37:16 AM
Babies aren't the hard part. They are kind of like new cars. Once you put a few dents and scratches on them, you tend to get over yourself.

And the baby stage only lasts for about a year and a half. Then they learn to walk and talk, and it's game over.

If you want to put yourself to the test, volunteer to do something with a group of 10 to 14 year olds. And don't cherry-pick for the group. You will lose quite a few brain cells, and you will want to murder some of them with every eye roll they give you; but you will get a much better view of what it's like to be a parent.

I'm not saying it's all a bad thing, but the focus on babies seems a little off-topic to me.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: smallcleanrat on August 18, 2023, 12:16:59 PM
Quote from: Caracal on August 15, 2023, 06:55:16 AM
Quote from: latico on August 14, 2023, 11:52:56 AMVery sorry to double post, but I intended to respond to the remark you quote from your mom: "Raising you wasn't 'worth it'."  Apart from the obvious observation that it is unconscionable to say that to your child, I wanted to point out that it is not a comment about *you*, SCR.  It is really a comment about your mother's perspective on choices she made in her life and the unrealistic expectations that she allowed herself to feel about those choices. 

I feel fairly confident that even if you were a perfectly ordinary, materially successful, healthy young woman, your mother would *still* make cruel remarks like that.  She would find some negative aspect of Ordinary Daughter onto which she could project her own dissatisfaction with herself.  Because what lies behind a remark like that is profound unhappiness and self-loathing.  She is offloading it onto you, by imagining that your challenges are its cause, but don't fall for it. 

Going forward, treat your mother as if she were a troll on an internet thread: DNFTM-T (Do Not Feed The Mom-Troll).  That means never telling her anything bad that happens to you, or any of your negative thoughts or feelings, or even any of your diagnoses.  Put her on a diet of unrelenting positivity: "Yes, everything is great Mom!  I had a paper accepted! | My PI said I am a terrific teacher! | I passed my exams with flying colors! | SO is the best! | SO says I'm the best!" And so on.  This may feel false at first, but it's really only changing the focus in your relationship with her, onto everything that is positive about your life. Most parents would be *delighted* to have a child as academically successful as you are, in a field as difficult as yours.  Make sure that your successes are all your mom knows about you.

Above all, do NOT believe her cruel comments have *anything* to do with you: remember, you have been serving a useful psychological purpose for her, as an external cause she can blame for her own unhappiness and dissatisfaction. She would use *any* daughter for that purpose, no matter how wonderful she might be.

This is well said. Regret is, I suspect, mostly about an inability to manage and process feelings. We have a 2 month old and a 6 year old and at the moment, everything feels like a complete disaster most of the time. Kids are people, they don't exist to validate their parents' decisions and make them feel happy. It would be like if you expected your partner to always make you happy at every moment and never irritate or frustrate you. It doesn't work like that.

Thank you for saying this latico and Caracal.

latico, I think your suggestion to treat my mom like an internet troll is a good one (and your DNFTM-T acronym made me smile).

Quote from: fishbrains on August 18, 2023, 05:37:16 AMBabies aren't the hard part. They are kind of like new cars. Once you put a few dents and scratches on them, you tend to get over yourself.

And the baby stage only lasts for about a year and a half. Then they learn to walk and talk, and it's game over.

If you want to put yourself to the test, volunteer to do something with a group of 10 to 14 year olds. And don't cherry-pick for the group. You will lose quite a few brain cells, and you will want to murder some of them with every eye roll they give you; but you will get a much better view of what it's like to be a parent.

I'm not saying it's all a bad thing, but the focus on babies seems a little off-topic to me.

Yeah, this is a good point. The baby stage doesn't scare me anywhere near as much as the later stages when their social/emotional/educational needs are much more complex and you have to be helping them learn independence and discipline and right-from-wrong even during times when you are the last person on earth they are inclined to listen to.

I'm already worrying about adolescent rebellion.
Title: Re: How Do People Decide to Have Kids?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on August 18, 2023, 08:01:30 PM
Luckily, they spend a little over a decade building up credit with you before that happens! ;)