The Fora: A Higher Education Community

Quote from: dismalist on June 14, 2023, 10:34:47 AM--Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.

No. Science is a culture of evidence.

Quote from: marshwiggle on June 15, 2023, 06:37:50 AMWahoo, do you want to change your previous statements?

Not really.

I was just thinking "men" because we were discussing adults.

I appreciate onthefringe's specificity.  That is Butler's argument, actually, and if I hadn't been typing so fast I probably would have caught it.

Quotewhy is making medical changes (to alter biology)considered the best solution rather than counselling (to alter psychology)?

Why?  If people want to switch genders now, they can.  People are generally happier in their new gender.  What purpose would counselling serve? 

Why do you care?

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 15, 2023, 08:53:32 AM

Quote from: marshwiggle on June 15, 2023, 06:37:50 AMWahoo, do you want to change your previous statements?

Not really.

I was just thinking "men" because we were discussing adults.

I appreciate onthefringe's specificity.  That is Butler's argument, actually, and if I hadn't been typing so fast I probably would have caught it.

Quotewhy is making medical changes (to alter biology)considered the best solution rather than counselling (to alter psychology)?

Why?  If people want to switch genders now, they can.  People are generally happier in their new gender.  What purpose would counselling serve? 

Why do you care?

Generally speaking, the medical profession is supposed to provide the most efficacious care, based on evidence. Santa Claus is the one who is supposed to give people what they want.

Quote from: dismalist on June 14, 2023, 10:34:47 AMInteresting, that all these experts are promoting what's in their own narrow economic interest. Find new things to treat, get new customers, make more money! Incentives, man, incentives.

We shouldn't show deference to any expert group per se. Richard Feynman opined:

--Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.

--Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.

Now you are just falling into conspiracy theories. All those shadow Social Workers with $80k in student debt pulling the strings to make $45k a year to keep kids from killing themselves. Take a step back and think about what you are claiming.

Quote from: marshwiggle on June 15, 2023, 06:37:50 AMThe brain is amazingly malleable. Surgery and medication can't hold a candle to neural plasticity.

Don't oversell the research on neuroplasticity. It's clearly not your area.

Quote from: marshwiggle on June 15, 2023, 07:06:53 AMAre you talking about David Reimer? That was exactly a case of trying to change someone's "gender identity" from their biological reality!

You are intentionally missing the point entirely. His gender identity was being a boy. No intensive training or acculturation to try to get him to identify as a girl worked. Drag shows weren't going to do it.

Quote from: dismalist on June 14, 2023, 10:34:47 AM

Quote from: Diogenes on June 14, 2023, 08:58:26 AMWe are all presumably academics, right? So we should show deference to the experts in the fields of medicine and psychology on such a topic, right? If one is not an expert and only getting their info from popular media, that would be anti-intellectual, wouldn't we say?

Here's a non-exclusive list of major professional organizations that have made statements supporting gender affirming care for minors. If you are not an expert, it's time to sit down with your ignorant opinion about "groomers" and gender or whatever.


    American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
    American Academy of Dermatology
    American Academy of Family Physicians
    American Academy of Nursing
    American Academy of Pediatrics
    American Academy of Physician Assistants
    American College Health Association
    American College of Nurse-Midwives
    American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
    American College of Physicians
    American Counseling Association
    American Heart Association
    American Medical Association
    American Medical Student Association
    American Nurses Association
    American Osteopathic Association
    American Psychiatric Association
    American Psychological Association
    American Public Health Association
    American Society of Plastic Surgeons
    Endocrine Society
    Federation of Pediatric Organizations
    GLMA: Health Professionals Advancing LGBTQ Equality
    National Association of Nurse Practitioners in Women's Health
    National Association of Social Workers
    National Commission on Correctional Health Care
    Pediatric Endocrine Society
    Society for Adolescent Health and Medicine
    World Medical Association
    World Professional Association for Transgender Health

Interesting, that all these experts are promoting what's in their own narrow economic interest. Find new things to treat, get new customers, make more money! Incentives, man, incentives.

We shouldn't show deference to any expert group per se. Richard Feynman opined:

--Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.

--Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.

Plenty of countries have socialized or single payer medicine, so providing gender-affirming care doesn't provide them any new "customers" or any extra money. Using someone's preferred name and pronouns when providing care doesn't give me any financial bonus. For my physician colleagues, a 15 min appointment about hormone therapy yields the same fee for service, whether it's someone looking to decrease menopause symptoms, some young person who is in surgical menopause but identifies as female so needs hormone therapy, or someone seeking gender-affirming hormones. No financial incentive for the gender-affirming care.

Quote from: Diogenes on June 15, 2023, 10:46:42 AM

Quote from: marshwiggle on June 15, 2023, 06:37:50 AMThe brain is amazingly malleable. Surgery and medication can't hold a candle to neural plasticity.

Don't oversell the research on neuroplasticity. It's clearly not your area.

Quote from: marshwiggle on June 15, 2023, 07:06:53 AMAre you talking about David Reimer? That was exactly a case of trying to change someone's "gender identity" from their biological reality!

You are intentionally missing the point entirely. His gender identity was being a boy. No intensive training or acculturation to try to get him to identify as a girl worked. Drag shows weren't going to do it.

No, you are intentionally missing the point. Money was convinced that biology didn't matter. He was totally and tragically wrong.

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 14, 2023, 08:23:04 AM

Quote from: marshwiggle on June 14, 2023, 05:35:02 AMI'll let Wahoo explain that by what he calls "men-at-birth".

Sure.

At birth we are generally a single gender and will retain our chromosomes for the rest of our lives.

Then culture will overlay our psychology with all sorts of ideas and behaviors and beliefs which is some folks cannot (or choose not to) differentiate from biology.

Upvote to little bongo.

Sometimes these folks claim that they could care less what people do in the privacyof their own bedrooms...but this is hogwash, and these same folks are actually obsessed with what other people do in private, largely because they are mistaking psychology for biology.  Oh, and because they were taught at one point that these sorts of things are wrong and they can't (or won't) rethink their beliefs.

And now that we have surgical techniques that can alter many of the cosmetic and biological aspects of gender, and some men want to dress as women, these realities are REALLY stomping on these folks hangups, like stepping on big toes with hangnails, and since the conservatives have been losing the culture wars for generations, rightwing politicians and media have amped the rhetoric up to such a degree that these folks have their knickers all in knots and part of the discourse has collapsed.  These folks naturally blame the people who live their own lives in their own ways unencumbered by all these prejudices, reenacting bigotries that have been around for generations.

There is no gender at birth. I've published on this. We have sex assigned at birth, based usually on the appearance of external genitalia. We have no idea of someone's chromosomes unless testing was done or it is apparent they have a sex-linked or other genetic disorder. Sex is biological, but is not binary.

Gender is cultural and sociological. We acquire gender as we are socialized. For most, gender and biological sex align, or some it doesn't.

Indigenous peoples have long histories of what we would call queer or trans people today. In Canada, many First Nations have long had two-spirited individuals. While two spirit is a modern term, many First Nations had a third gender that was considered just as normal as the male or female gender.

If anyone legitimately is interested in the differences between sex and gender, check out CIHR's resources on sex and gender.

Both sex and gender lie on a continuum.

See https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/sa-visual/visualizing-sex-as-a-spectrum/

Also, Sky has an excellent series on right now called Queer Planet, showing the amazing diversity of sex in our world. There's nothing "natural" about what we think of as heterosexual sex. Nature has many different forms of sex identification and sexual activity.

Quote from: MarathonRunner on June 15, 2023, 11:05:59 AM

Quote from: dismalist on June 14, 2023, 10:34:47 AM

Quote from: Diogenes on June 14, 2023, 08:58:26 AMWe are all presumably academics, right? So we should show deference to the experts in the fields of medicine and psychology on such a topic, right? If one is not an expert and only getting their info from popular media, that would be anti-intellectual, wouldn't we say?

Here's a non-exclusive list of major professional organizations that have made statements supporting gender affirming care for minors. If you are not an expert, it's time to sit down with your ignorant opinion about "groomers" and gender or whatever.


    American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
    American Academy of Dermatology
    American Academy of Family Physicians
    American Academy of Nursing
    American Academy of Pediatrics
    American Academy of Physician Assistants
    American College Health Association
    American College of Nurse-Midwives
    American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
    American College of Physicians
    American Counseling Association
    American Heart Association
    American Medical Association
    American Medical Student Association
    American Nurses Association
    American Osteopathic Association
    American Psychiatric Association
    American Psychological Association
    American Public Health Association
    American Society of Plastic Surgeons
    Endocrine Society
    Federation of Pediatric Organizations
    GLMA: Health Professionals Advancing LGBTQ Equality
    National Association of Nurse Practitioners in Women's Health
    National Association of Social Workers
    National Commission on Correctional Health Care
    Pediatric Endocrine Society
    Society for Adolescent Health and Medicine
    World Medical Association
    World Professional Association for Transgender Health

Interesting, that all these experts are promoting what's in their own narrow economic interest. Find new things to treat, get new customers, make more money! Incentives, man, incentives.

We shouldn't show deference to any expert group per se. Richard Feynman opined:

--Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.

--Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.

Plenty of countries have socialized or single payer medicine, so providing gender-affirming care doesn't provide them any new "customers" or any extra money. Using someone's preferred name and pronouns when providing care doesn't give me any financial bonus. For my physician colleagues, a 15 min appointment about hormone therapy yields the same fee for service, whether it's someone looking to decrease menopause symptoms, some young person who is in surgical menopause but identifies as female so needs hormone therapy, or someone seeking gender-affirming hormones. No financial incentive for the gender-affirming care.

..yields the same fee-for-service: But now you can recruit more customers! That's what advertising is for. I never knew I had that treatable symptom.

This means more influence even in Bevanian health care provision or Bismarckian health finance systems. There, the reward to doctors is hashed out politically. The more demand for treatment, the greater the political pull of health workers.

There is no reason to trust anyone who benefits financially from his or her doings unless the quality of the outcome can be determined independently. 

Quote from: marshwiggle on June 15, 2023, 10:40:21 AM

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 15, 2023, 08:53:32 AM

Quote from: marshwiggle on June 15, 2023, 06:37:50 AMWahoo, do you want to change your previous statements?

Not really.

I was just thinking "men" because we were discussing adults.

I appreciate onthefringe's specificity.  That is Butler's argument, actually, and if I hadn't been typing so fast I probably would have caught it.

Quotewhy is making medical changes (to alter biology)considered the best solution rather than counselling (to alter psychology)?

Why?  If people want to switch genders now, they can.  People are generally happier in their new gender.  What purpose would counselling serve? 

Why do you care?

Generally speaking, the medical profession is supposed to provide the most efficacious care, based on evidence. Santa Claus is the one who is supposed to give people what they want.

So that's your latest issue?  That gender transition is not "efficacious?"

Well, my friend, I challenge your contention that psychology is as malleable as you suggest. 

The only way you could convince me that I am not straight, that I am not attracted to women, or that I was not happy in my man's body (although I wish it were a little trimmer at the moment) would be to brainwash me.  I mean, you would really have to hammer into my head that I want to be a woman, that I am attracted to men, and that actually, for my own good, I am gay.  It doesn't matter what I desire, I am a gay man----that would take a hell of a lot of doing.

So no, buddy.  You are just generating more spurious objections to stuff that you really have no reason to worry about.  In your heart you just think it is wrong to be gay or dress as the opposite gender from your birth sex.  Your clown comparison is risible.

Quote from: dismalist on June 15, 2023, 11:37:50 AMhe more demand for treatment, the greater the political pull of health workers.

There is no reason to trust anyone who benefits financially from his or her doings unless the quality of the outcome can be determined independently. 

Big talk is easy.  Prove it.

IHE: Houston Dean Accused of Racial, LGBTQ Harassment

Lower Deck:

QuoteTwo preliminary investigation reports allege "microaggressions, slights, double entendre and boorish behavior."

Quote from: marshwiggle on June 15, 2023, 11:10:46 AM

Quote from: Diogenes on June 15, 2023, 10:46:42 AM

Quote from: marshwiggle on June 15, 2023, 06:37:50 AMThe brain is amazingly malleable. Surgery and medication can't hold a candle to neural plasticity.

Don't oversell the research on neuroplasticity. It's clearly not your area.

Quote from: marshwiggle on June 15, 2023, 07:06:53 AMAre you talking about David Reimer? That was exactly a case of trying to change someone's "gender identity" from their biological reality!

You are intentionally missing the point entirely. His gender identity was being a boy. No intensive training or acculturation to try to get him to identify as a girl worked. Drag shows weren't going to do it.

No, you are intentionally missing the point. Money was convinced that biology didn't matter. He was totally and tragically wrong.

Fine, I'll disclose. I'm a tenured professor of biopsychology. Wanna keep tilting at this windmill? I have original editions of some of his work on my shelf for historical purposes to show students. Shall I grab them for you?

Actually, you would be better off reading up on the modern understanding of the biology of gender identity. She talks neuroplasticity limits in there too, since you should probably get caught up there also. https://www.rosalindfranklin.edu/academics/faculty/pink-brain-blue-brain/

Quote from: Diogenes on June 15, 2023, 11:58:31 AM

Quote from: marshwiggle on June 15, 2023, 11:10:46 AM

Quote from: Diogenes on June 15, 2023, 10:46:42 AM

Quote from: marshwiggle on June 15, 2023, 06:37:50 AMThe brain is amazingly malleable. Surgery and medication can't hold a candle to neural plasticity.

Don't oversell the research on neuroplasticity. It's clearly not your area.

Quote from: marshwiggle on June 15, 2023, 07:06:53 AMAre you talking about David Reimer? That was exactly a case of trying to change someone's "gender identity" from their biological reality!

You are intentionally missing the point entirely. His gender identity was being a boy. No intensive training or acculturation to try to get him to identify as a girl worked. Drag shows weren't going to do it.

No, you are intentionally missing the point. Money was convinced that biology didn't matter. He was totally and tragically wrong.

Fine, I'll disclose. I'm a tenured professor of biopsychology. Wanna keep tilting at this windmill? I have original editions of some of his work on my shelf for historical purposes to show students. Shall I grab them for you?

Actually, you would be better off reading up on the modern understanding of the biology of gender identity. She talks neuroplasticity limits in there too, since you should probably get caught up there also. https://www.rosalindfranklin.edu/academics/faculty/pink-brain-blue-brain/

I don't want to get too pissy, dio, but let me ask if the author had kids.

When our daughter was born, I was over the moon, but noticed about myself a small number of years on that I treated her like a boy. In particular, I bought her a small train set beautifully designed for small hands. She did play with it on the floor, for what it was intended, though not spontaneously, only when I brought out the set. While playing with the train often somebody would come by -- wife, wife's female friends, whoever -- bringing a doll or a ragdoll. Bam! End of train. Kid grabs doll, and is happy as a clam. Boy, was I pissed off at all those women!

But wife and I early on let daughter decide.

Quote from: dismalist on June 15, 2023, 11:37:50 AM

Quote from: MarathonRunner on June 15, 2023, 11:05:59 AM

Quote from: dismalist on June 14, 2023, 10:34:47 AM

Quote from: Diogenes on June 14, 2023, 08:58:26 AMWe are all presumably academics, right? So we should show deference to the experts in the fields of medicine and psychology on such a topic, right? If one is not an expert and only getting their info from popular media, that would be anti-intellectual, wouldn't we say?

Here's a non-exclusive list of major professional organizations that have made statements supporting gender affirming care for minors. If you are not an expert, it's time to sit down with your ignorant opinion about "groomers" and gender or whatever.


    American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
    American Academy of Dermatology
    American Academy of Family Physicians
    American Academy of Nursing
    American Academy of Pediatrics
    American Academy of Physician Assistants
    American College Health Association
    American College of Nurse-Midwives
    American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
    American College of Physicians
    American Counseling Association
    American Heart Association
    American Medical Association
    American Medical Student Association
    American Nurses Association
    American Osteopathic Association
    American Psychiatric Association
    American Psychological Association
    American Public Health Association
    American Society of Plastic Surgeons
    Endocrine Society
    Federation of Pediatric Organizations
    GLMA: Health Professionals Advancing LGBTQ Equality
    National Association of Nurse Practitioners in Women's Health
    National Association of Social Workers
    National Commission on Correctional Health Care
    Pediatric Endocrine Society
    Society for Adolescent Health and Medicine
    World Medical Association
    World Professional Association for Transgender Health

Interesting, that all these experts are promoting what's in their own narrow economic interest. Find new things to treat, get new customers, make more money! Incentives, man, incentives.

We shouldn't show deference to any expert group per se. Richard Feynman opined:

--Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.

--Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.

Plenty of countries have socialized or single payer medicine, so providing gender-affirming care doesn't provide them any new "customers" or any extra money. Using someone's preferred name and pronouns when providing care doesn't give me any financial bonus. For my physician colleagues, a 15 min appointment about hormone therapy yields the same fee for service, whether it's someone looking to decrease menopause symptoms, some young person who is in surgical menopause but identifies as female so needs hormone therapy, or someone seeking gender-affirming hormones. No financial incentive for the gender-affirming care.

..yields the same fee-for-service: But now you can recruit more customers! That's what advertising is for. I never knew I had that treatable symptom.

This means more influence even in Bevanian health care provision or Bismarckian health finance systems. There, the reward to doctors is hashed out politically. The more demand for treatment, the greater the political pull of health workers.

There is no reason to trust anyone who benefits financially from his or her doings unless the quality of the outcome can be determined independently.

Except there is no such thing as customers in single payer or socialized medicine. Physicians already have more patients than they can see on any given day. Hence why there are often long wait times in these systems. There are only so many hours in a day that a physician can work. Whether they spend 10 hours seeing patients with diabetes or 10 hours seeing patients for gender affirming care, provided the same number of appointments occur during those 10 hours, they are paid the exact same. There is no incentive to providing gender affirming care in such systems, since physicians are already overworked and get paid the same regardless of who they see or for what those patients are seen. There are already more than enough patients to go around (look at Canada and how many Canadian are without a family doctor). There is simply no monetary incentive in places like Canada to provide gender affirming care. It's just the right, ethical thing to do, even when physicians actually lose money on providing it, because other forms of care take less time and fewer resources. Physicians actually earn less sometimes, prove gender affirming care, so definitely no financial incentive at all in those circumstances.

I don't think those of you who haven't worked in healthcare in places like Canada or Germany realize that there is no need to find new patient groups. It's hard enough providing appropriate care to existing patients. There is no need to find new patients at all. I realize the U.S. with its perverse health care system, is very different. But that's just not the case in most high income countries. People are actually providing gender affirming care at a loss to their income, because it can take more time and effort. You could see three sore throats in the time it might take you to provide gender affirming care. So you get paid 1/3 what you could have made if you just saw those sore throats. Wow, getting paid less is such a huge incentive!